# Points and condenser to electronic ignition conversion



## 2jamesb2 (Sep 15, 2021)

Although I am doing this rebuild in honor of my who wanted to keep it original but I am on the engine rebuild I am going with a RV cam, headers, flowmaster exhaust and converting from points to HEI distributor. Guys would I need to go with a high end street & strip or a reg. Performance GM distributor?? Is the DUI or MSD over kill???


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## 2jamesb2 (Sep 15, 2021)

I left out "In honor of my brother"


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The stock distributor with points and condenser, if in good shape, is as good as any aftermarket upgrade performance-wise, and a whole lot more reliable. The aftermarket stuff does offer rev-limiting capabilities, though, which are nice. 
I've been running points and condensers in all my old cars for four and a half decades and no issues. Lost track of all of the HEI failures in customer's and club member's cars. 
Most folks I know who get rid of points are the same ones that install Holley Sniper FI and ditch the carb...because they don't understand it.


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

X2 on the points distributor

I Have a factory points distributor in my 64. 
It is a beast 
Now the advance can, weights and springs are far from stock...LOL


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

What is an RV cam? ( just kidding) I just hate the generalazation of camshaftery with terms like RV cam, 3/4 cam yada yada yada

Post up the cam card my man


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## 2jamesb2 (Sep 15, 2021)

Thanks for the humor, but I have not made a purchase of the engine build kit. the shop doing the rebuild recommend a recreational vehicle (RV) cam above stock but not as radical as you say 3/4 cam Yada Yada yada!! I have read and converted my 1968


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## 2jamesb2 (Sep 15, 2021)

2jamesb2 said:


> Thanks for the humor, but I have not made a purchase of the engine build kit. the shop doing the rebuild recommend a recreational vehicle (RV) cam above stock but not as radical as you say 3/4 cam Yada Yada yada!! I have read and converted my 1968
> View attachment 156407


I went with a stock electric ignition in back in 1993. But was wondering if I could have gotten better performance with a hotter DUI or MSD


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

You should start a thread on your engine build and seek some knowlege about your build. 
At least post some specs, like piston type and valve relief , head chambers, cam specs etc,


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

2jamesb2 said:


> Although I am doing this rebuild in honor of my who wanted to keep it original but I am on the engine rebuild I am going with a RV cam, headers, flowmaster exhaust and converting from points to HEI distributor. Guys would I need to go with a high end street & strip or a reg. Performance GM distributor?? Is the DUI or MSD over kill???


This topic is like getting into a discussion about religion or politics. Some will defend points/condensers 'til hell freezes over, and some will defend electronic knowing i_t has frozen over._

Points are reliable as long as you get a good set, like factory NOS AC Delco from Ebay. With aftermarket points and condensers you can get junk and have all kinds of ignition issues. They are easy to maintain - with the key work "maintain." You have to adjust them for a correct gap of around .019", but it is best to use a dwell meter to more accurately keep them in tune of their optimum dwell angle of 30 degrees. The rubbing block wears down as do the points them selves, so they do require "maintenance" to keep them at their best. If the points are not quality, they will have a weaker spring used in closing them. At higher RPM's the flat spring cannot keep up with the opening and closing rates at these higher RPM's, and you get what is called "point bounce" and the engine will run badly after a certain RPM which may be much lower than the engine is capable - good for grandma's car, but not a high RPM engine. Race engine use a set of points with a much higher flat spring rate so the points don't bounce - but this usually means that the rubbing block that rides on the distributor's center cam (lobes) wears out much faster and of course means earlier maintenance to keep the points setting optimal until the points are no longer any good. The extra pressure of the points spring on the rubbing block can also create the cam lobes that open/close the points to wear down/out. Dual points give the spark plug more firing time, but with an HEI, this is one of their built in features, and going to an MSD unit also provides more spark time - i have run both without issue.

Never had a set of points fail me when out on the road using the car in regular service. They will cause the engine to run poorly if they need adjustment or are on their way out. I have had them not work in a couple cars that had sat long term. The points will/can corrode over long periods of time as heat/humidity takes their toll. Just have to pull the points to clean the contact surfaces, re-install, and start the car up. So, points work well as long as you install quality parts and "maintain" them.

First, with most any electronic change over, you will want to make sure you use 12V to power the coil. Factory uses 12V to initially start the car to give it a good hot spark, then drops down to around 8-9V to when the key is snapped back to the "Run" position. Points will burn/pit with 12V, so you have a resistance wire/circuit to drop the voltage down.

Figure out how you want to do this - get 12V to the coil and jump the resistance wire. Some go direct with another wire off the ignition, a separate hot wire with on/off switch, or use the factory resistor wire to connect to a small relay (purchased at any auto parts store) which acts as a switch to open a 12V source - one that enters the relay, and another that will exit to the coil. The relay is simply an on/off switch for the 12V which is triggered by the lower 8-9V resistor wire. The amount of voltage to the "switch" can be very low, so 8-9V is more than enough to open the internal switch that allows the hot 12V going into it, to continue on out to the coil. So you would have 12V to the coil from your ignition switch that provides 12V ONLY when you turn the key to "Start." Then when the key is snapped back to "Run," the resistance wire that normally goes to the coil - goes to the relay box which acts as an electronic switch to open the circuit that allows the 12V line going into it (from whatever 12V source you use) and continues right on through/past the switch and to your coil. So now your coil sees 12V at all times. Shut the engine off, the 8-9V going to the relay is disconnected, and that in turn closes the switch within the relay box, and no more 12V to the coil - engine stops.

Electronic advantages - you do not have to "maintain" the points, its gap/dwell, or replace them every 8-10K miles. No rubbing block to wear out or wear out the distributor's point lobe. They can offer more dwell, ie longer spark, as part of their function. Little to no maintenance for 100,000 miles or more. The factory used the HEI to get 50,000 miles out of a tune-up per the Fed Government. So, you might be replacing/adjusting point 5-6 times by the time you hit 50K with an HEI, and the HEI will still be going strong past 100K. Just replace cap/rotor/wires/plugs - but a much longer intervals. GM introduced HEI specifically in response to federal requirements that cars must meet emissions requirements after *50,000 miles with no maintenance whatsoever. *That's why you have platinum spark plugs also. The higher voltage of the HEI coil was intended to overcome the problems of fouled plugs long overdue for a change. The electronic triggering was intended to overcome the problems of burned points. *Neither of these provides a performance improvement over a properly and regularly "maintained" point style ignition system using quality replacement parts.*

As far as choices. You can add an electronic conversion, Pertronix, to your factory distributor to keep the original look. Check their website to see what it take. Very easy to do. I ran one in my '68 Lemans for about 7 years without issue and installed a kit in my brother's 1948 International. Some have had no issues, some have had issues. Take it with a grain of salt. Simple & inexpensive - BUT, make sure you get their matching coil as this is important as part of a good set-up.

Then you have the factory big cap HEI. Parts are hard to get, they are big/clumsy looking, have the coil on top, and are not really aimed at high performance unless you do a little work to them. They are old and most worn. The electronic module can go out like any other electronic part - typically from heat. Easy enough to replace, but typically leaves you stranded without warning when you really don't need it.

You can then go with an aftermarket electronic distributor and you will get a ton of opinions as to which is best. Some are big cap, some are small cap. Most will use an external coil versus the in-cap coil. No advantage either way, but external coil looks more stock.

So just compare as to what you feel will work for you at the best value. Read any reviews with a grain of salt and not the date the review was written because some faults get fixed and no longer apply.


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## lust4speed (Jul 5, 2019)

Jim posted while I was typing, and I agree with him except maybe the reliability of the points system. Back in the day we all carried a points file and at least a matchbook so we could clean up with the file and then set the gap with the cover after our cars would either die or come close to it out on the road. Sometimes just metal transfer and sometimes a spec of god-knows-what would sideline us, but it did happen pretty regular.

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Plenty of guys have went with the HEI distributors and been happy. I just hate seeing that massive distributor cap screaming out from the back of the engine. I prefer something along the lines of the Fast XRi (formally Crane XRi) electronic replacement module. Only problem with this is there is a great possibility that the advance curve really sucks on your current points distributor and it really should be brought to someone that can go through it and get things straightened out. Which brings up a third option which is an expensive MSD ready to run distributor or the much more reasonably priced Summit brand ready to run unit. Both have really decent timing curves as delivered.

Personally I have found only about one in ten points units are really acceptable, and there's no way to know if you beat the odds and got a good one unless you test it a distributor machine. Back in the mid 80's my go-to engine guru and dyno shop owner detected a misfire on the dyno with my engine running a new set of Mallory X points which was the supreme choice of points back then. He stopped the pulls and sent me down to the local speed shop and had me pick up an electronic ignition module. Back on the dyno with the replacement module installed the miss was gone and the only limiting factor on RPM limit was the fear of scattering the engine. The added misfires from points bounce (and/or harmonics) can start under 4,000 RPM and the expensive points are sometimes no better than the lower price stock replacement units. One of the most stable set of points I tested running up to high RPM's was a no-name all-in-one points set. Considering the number of points sets I would have purchased over the years I'm way ahead in money spent. First photo is a set of almost new points on a friend's distributor and second photo is after the XRi unit was installed.


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## 2jamesb2 (Sep 15, 2021)

PontiacJim said:


> This topic is like getting into a discussion about religion or politics. Some will defend points/condensers 'til hell freezes over, and some will defend electronic knowing i_t has frozen over._
> 
> Points are reliable as long as you get a good set, like factory NOS AC Delco from Ebay. With aftermarket points and condensers you can get junk and have all kinds of ignition issues. They are easy to maintain - with the key work "maintain." You have to adjust them for a correct gap of around .019", but it is best to use a dwell meter to more accurately keep them in tune of their optimum dwell angle of 30 degrees. The rubbing block wears down as do the points them selves, so they do require "maintenance" to keep them at their best. If the points are not quality, they will have a weaker spring used in closing them. At higher RPM's the flat spring cannot keep up with the opening and closing rates at these higher RPM's, and you get what is called "point bounce" and the engine will run badly after a certain RPM which may be much lower than the engine is capable - good for grandma's car, but not a high RPM engine. Race engine use a set of points with a much higher flat spring rate so the points don't bounce - but this usually means that the rubbing block that rides on the distributor's center cam (lobes) wears out much faster and of course means earlier maintenance to keep the points setting optimal until the points are no longer any good. The extra pressure of the points spring on the rubbing block can also create the cam lobes that open/close the points to wear down/out. Dual points give the spark plug more firing time, but with an HEI, this is one of their built in features, and going to an MSD unit also provides more spark time - i have run both without issue.
> 
> ...


Thank you PontiacJim this was what I was looking for. I remember in the navy in the early 70’s traveling across country to California my points went out and left me stranded in a little one light town until the only parts store open. I’m just wondering if a aftermarket internal coil would give better power on the top end Or overkill


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## AZTempest (Jun 11, 2019)

lust4speed said:


> Jim posted while I was typing, and I agree with him except maybe the reliability of the points system. Back in the day we all carried a points file and at least a matchbook so we could clean up with the file and then set the gap with the cover after our cars would either die or come close to it out on the road. Sometimes just metal transfer and sometimes a spec of god-knows-what would sideline us, but it did happen pretty regular.


It's funny, back when I started driving, about 1980, some people said to make sure I carry a set of points and condenser as it's just a matter of time before I'd breakdown. Always had them and to this day I have never had to deal with them ever let alone on the side of the road. One time, during a tune up, I bought a new, bad condenser. I just kept the old one in and never thought twice about it.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I would put a Summit Billet in there. It's made by MSD and is an exact copy. Then you'll have a modern dizzy with state of the art machining and tolerances, plus the added benefit of a fully adustable timing curve and control over the vacuum advance. All in a dizzy that resembles a stock unit.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

2jamesb2 said:


> I went with a stock electric ignition in back in 1993. But was wondering if I could have gotten better performance with a hotter DUI or MSD


No, you won't. There's no such thing as lighting the fire "better". The advantage (some) electronic systems have is that they are capable of operation at higher rpm than a standard points unit. That can matter if you're building a high rpm race engine, or if you're wanting to get "dynamic" ignition control that is capable of responding to changing engine load "better" (well, perhaps only easier to tune) than the mechanical system including the vacuum can. 
I recently put an HEI from Progression Ignition in my car and so far I like it because of the fine control it gives me and how effective it is at managing idle with my somewhat rowdy cam, but it doesn't make more power. 

Bear


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## 67lemans (Oct 30, 2009)

I had a 69 firebird and the larger HEI distributor cap was a really tight fit with the firewall. You might check the clearance on that if you go HEI. Not sure about the 67 clearance.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Pontiac Jim's info is 100% bankable. Thanks for the excellent write-up, PJ. Bear as well. Totally objective, factual information. 
Another man I respect a lot is Lars Grimsrud, an engineer who has written articles on ignition systems and engine tuning. For the past 30-40 years. I personally tuned cars for over 40 years as a profession---- and Lars has forgotten in an afternoon more than I've ever known. I particularly like his back to back testing of an old Ford Maverick on the dyno using a state of the art MSD vs the standard single points distributor, and how he got zero change. 302 V8.
My secret over the years since about 1995 or so when parts quality started to go south has been to stock up on NOS parts. I have the 112 high RPM points, the 106 regular, and a decent assortment of bakelite distributor caps, etc. to run on my old GM rigs. Some of them date back to the 1960's but are new in box. 
I'm one of the increasingly rare guys who actually LIKES to tune his car every 12-15k miles and see the improvement made. 
I do like the rev-limiter capabilities of the HEI units, though. Especially with a Pontiac Strato Streak engine, which will easily rev to oblivion.
Great stuff here, gents.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

2jamesb2 said:


> Thank you PontiacJim this was what I was looking for. I remember in the navy in the early 70’s traveling across country to California my points went out and left me stranded in a little one light town until the only parts store open. I’m just wondering if a aftermarket internal coil would give better power on the top end Or overkill


I am not sure what you mean by "internal coil"? Are you talking of the coil that sits on top of the factory type HEI distributor cap?

The distributor itself either points or electronic, set the parameters that fire the coil - it is the trigger, to make it simple. This is why many of us used to add a "hotter" coil, either stock in appearance or those big Yellow Accel coils which were a hot rod favorite. Then you need to have a means to send the extra volts to the spark plugs, so you need a larger diameter spark plug wire. Again, those Yellow Accel wires were the go-to spark plug wire to let everyone know you had an engine with some HP. I was different because I did not like yellow and went with a set of Taylor "red" wires. Same brand I have purchased for my 455 build.

The next level up for us street performance guys who added stuff to what we had, was the MSD^ add-on box. Remember, many of us looked to the car magazines of the day and what they suggested via their own on the car/dyno testing along with the manufacturers claims. So if it was good enough for Hot Rod, it was a sure bet it was good enough for me - and others. I had the MSD6 on an engine that was overly rich with its dual 4 Bbls at idle and would foul out/blacken the plugs and it ran rough too boot. The MSD6 smoothed out the engine and fouled out plugs were a thing of the past, although the engine still ran rich - which was a plus as the RPM's would climb real high, not a plus at idle/lower speeds. So the MSD6 worked as claimed, and again, have the MSD6AL for my 455 build as it has a built-in Rev Limiter - which I feel* is a must* if you plan on exercising the engine/car regularly and spin tires under full pedal or have a manual trans and miss a shift at an already maxed RPM (that's why you shift, right?). _Everybod_y misses a shift once in a while.

So the coil has a lot to do with it and the distributor is only part of it - although it is the controller of the spark through timing, its advance curve, and vacuum advance if used.

From a MotorTrend article:

"old-school stock engines had *inductive discharge systems* that rely on the coil to do most of the work. The coil takes in battery voltage (typically, 12 to 14 volts) and steps it up to thousands of volts to create a hot enough spark to jump the spark-plug gap. The time it takes for the coil to transform battery voltage to output voltage is called dwell or coil saturation. At higher rpm, there may be insufficient time for the coil to recover and step up the battery voltage between firings. _The ways around this are *hotter coils *and aftermarket *add-on inductive ignition boxes*._

An inductive system such as GM's electronic HEI needs a full 12 volts and may put out more juice up to its design limits with higher input voltage. On the other hand, an inductive system that's still points triggered needs a ballast resistor to drop voltage to keep from burning out the points.

Capacitive discharge (CD) systems (MSD), usually designed around an add-on CD box, have an internal transformer to step up 12-volt battery voltage to 500 volts or more, storing that power in a capacitor that's always ready whenever the distributor sends a trigger signal. When boosted again through a matched performance coil, the resulting charge can output significantly higher voltages than most inductive systems.

*The drawback on a traditional CD system* is that although the spark is extremely hot, it is of shorter duration than the spark produced by an inductive system. This is primarily a problem at lower rpm when the combustion process is slower and fuel mixture is typically richer.

*Pioneered by MSD, the solution was a CD box that fires the spark plug multiple times *when the spark is below a certain rpm level (generally 3,000 to 3,500 rpm). However, above this rpm point, even a multispark ignition only has time to fire once.

There's still some debate about whether it is better to have one long-duration spark of moderate intensity or a shorter-duration spark of very high intensity, _I will say that with traditional distributors and coils, it seems in no-compromise racing, the multispark CD approach is the dominant one. _

Digital circuits are more affected by electromagnetic interference, so the wiring circuitry and proper shielding for the wiring is more critical. In the event of nuclear attack, simple analog points systems may be the only ignition systems still functional."









Inductive vs. Capacitive Discharge Ignition Systems


When using a traditional distributor and coil in no-compromise racing, the multispark capacitive-discharge ignition system is still top dog.




www.motortrend.com





What *BearGFR *has pointed out is the more contemporary version of an electronic distributor that you can tune from you phone - it adjustable (but would not work with my Flip Phone). Sorta an inbetween version of todays cars with its computer and engine sensors that can instantly adjust the engine firing needs in a milisecond. You can't beat todays ignition systems in my book, but even if I could add these on, for me, it takes away from the "old school" approach that I prefer to use/see. Some upgrades are great and a big improvement, but............


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## 2jamesb2 (Sep 15, 2021)

67lemans said:


> I had a 69 firebird and the larger HEI distributor cap was a really tight fit with the firewall. You might check the clearance on that if you go HEI. Not sure about the 67 clearance.


The 1968 Firebird pictured was switched over to HEI back in 1993. I had no problems with it. Sold it in 2016 to buy a 2015 Corvette


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

LOL...Pontiac Jim has a flip phone! I thought I was the only one left on the planet with one. You should see the snickers I get at airports, etc. when people see me use it. 

Kind of like when I had my 1915 Model T and a ten year old kid on a skateboard yelled "Get a horse!".

I use my phone to.....make calls to friends and family. And to sometimes see what time it is. Nothing else. 

I know a whole slew of 'electronically distracted/unavailable' people that would shrivel up and die if you turned their smart phones off for 15 minutes. 

I'm the ONLY guy in sight at the airport who is reading a paperback book instead of looking at a piece of glass in his hand. 

It's a crazy world!


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

I like the airport at Fresno. That Yosemite/Sequoia vibe.


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## Scott06 (May 6, 2020)

If one of your goals is a stock look. I would consider the SE single wire conversion kit. Breakerless Ignition

Not sure how they do it but it uses the stock delco distributor and has the module screw in where the points and condenser go and gets powered off the coil via the old wire going to negative side of the coil. 

The biggest improvement I saw was starting performance. I always had tough starts especially when cold. Not sure if rubbing block on my distributor or voltage drop when starting was an issue on my car, but as long as there is gas in carb bowl it starts right up. Also don't have to file points every spring....not that that was a huge issue


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

My cars with points start right up like modern cars. I never file my points. I replace them every 12,000-15,000 miles. As I have for the past 45 years. You must drive 20-30k miles a year if you're running into rubbing block and filing issues.


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