# please help me with decoding this 1965



## mxriderae (Dec 15, 2009)

Hi Guys am very new to this forums .. I bought 1965 GTO but when i showed it to a GTO expert he told me that it is Lemans but the vin is 65-23737-pon
can u please help me with decoding this 
Northeast Auto - Photo Viewer
please guys tell me what is this car it has the code 5W ??
thanx


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

mxriderae said:


> Hi Guys am very new to this forums .. I bought 1965 GTO but when i showed it to a GTO expert he told me that it is Lemans but the vin is 65-23737-pon
> can u please help me with decoding this
> Northeast Auto - Photo Viewer
> please guys tell me what is this car it has the code 5W ??
> thanx


The GTO expert who looked at your car is correct, the 65 Lemans built in the Pontiac and Kansas City Plants which included the GTO option will also have the letter "N" on the 5th section of the acc. line. Your car should read 5NW if indeed it were a true GTO. You could purchase the PHS documents if you want more information about your car,


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

mxriderae said:


> Hi Guys am very new to this forums .. I bought 1965 GTO but when i showed it to a GTO expert he told me that it is Lemans but the vin is 65-23737-pon
> can u please help me with decoding this
> Northeast Auto - Photo Viewer
> please guys tell me what is this car it has the code 5W ??
> thanx


Were you informed by the seller that it had a Chevrolet engine in it before purchase? If you bought this as a real GTO and assumed it had a Pontiac engine, you could have legal recourse. The VIN tag has been off for some reason too. Those are not original rivets.
It is a beautiful car though...


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

Too Many Projects said:


> Were you informed by the seller that it had a Chevrolet engine in it before purchase? If you bought this as a real GTO and assumed it had a Pontiac engine, you could have legal recourse. The VIN tag has been off for some reason too. Those are not original rivets.
> It is a beautiful car though...


maybe it a tempest and they switched the numbers to make us think it is a lemans turned into gto clone.  very sneaky :lol:


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## mxriderae (Dec 15, 2009)

Too Many Projects said:


> Were you informed by the seller that it had a Chevrolet engine in it before purchase? If you bought this as a real GTO and assumed it had a Pontiac engine, you could have legal recourse. The VIN tag has been off for some reason too. Those are not original rivets.
> It is a beautiful car though...


well i knew that it is not the original engine , i was planning to have a correct period 389 engine in it , but when i knew that it is not original GTO i think am going to cancel this transaction and look for something else


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

still looks like a real nice car. personally i was just kidding. the numbers dont mean anything to me.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

mxriderae said:


> well i knew that it is not the original engine , i was planning to have a correct period 389 engine in it , but when i knew that it is not original GTO i think am going to cancel this transaction and look for something else


The value of this car is seriously compromised with the non-Pontiac drivetrain. If the price is based on a real GTO, which it isn't, I agree that you would be better to walk away. 
Good luck on your continued search and when you find another candidate, bring the info here for verification. There is a lot of experience and knowledge here to help you find what you are looking for. Also, Pontiacs can be verified with documentation from Pontiac Historical Services, PHS for short. By contacting them, you can get the original build of a car with all options. The cost for a quick, faxed, copy is $65.00; a small price to pay to keep from being burned. Here is a link to their website and services. http://www.phs-online.com/services.htm


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

NortheastAuto said:


> "We were told that the VIN number indicates that this is a true GTO however we ask that you do your own research to confirm."


Maybe someone should call NortheastAuto and let them know their car is a clone!


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Ahhhh......the all important disclaimer to relieve them of any responsibility...:lol:
They don't make any mention of the Chev engine in the add either. It's just a "V8 engine".


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

Too Many Projects said:


> The VIN tag has been off for some reason too. Those are not original rivets.


:agree

The vin tag will probably come back for a GTO, notice the serial sequence number on the vin is over 29,000 and the data plate build date is the 3rd week of November 64. The fisher hardtop body number on the data plate is only 4378 which is a realistic number for 2 +/- months of production.


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## mxriderae (Dec 15, 2009)

Thanx Guys for the information , i knew that it is chevy`s engine but as i said i was going to buy 389 engine with three twos to make it correct period engine.. after that i discused it with my freind and decided to keep the car if it was titled as a GTO But what happened that when i recived the title i was shocked that the car is titled Lemans and they didn`t mentioned that the car is Lemans until i saw the title so am not going to keep it and maybe i will sue them for that !!


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## mxriderae (Dec 15, 2009)

and we bought this one for my freind .. what do u guys thik about it ? 
is ti Real GTO ?
Pontiac : GTO:eBay Motors (item 160385590709 end time Dec-15-09 05:57:22 PST)


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

mxriderae said:


> Thanx Guys for the information , i knew that it is chevy`s engine but as i said i was going to buy 389 engine with three twos to make it correct period engine.. after that i discused it with my freind and decided to keep the car if it was titled as a GTO But what happened that when i recived the title i was shocked that the car is titled Lemans and they didn`t mentioned that the car is Lemans until i saw the title so am not going to keep it and maybe i will sue them for that !!


Sorry to hear it's a done deal and you're disappointed. I know how that feels from experience. It is a beautiful car and if you can get past your anger, it's worth keeping. Unless you got it really cheap, you'll most likely lose money reselling it as a LeMans anyway. The dealer did put a disclaimer of uncertainty in their ad as to being a real GTO but they should've known it wasn't with a LeMans title.... You'd probably spend more in attorney's fees than you'd get back filing a suit. 



mxriderae said:


> and we bought this one for my freind .. what do u guys thik about it ?
> is ti Real GTO ?
> Pontiac : GTO:eBay Motors (item 160385590709 end time Dec-15-09 05:57:22 PST)


This one has a GTO VIN number. No pic of the VIN tag to know if it has the original rivets. Seems like a reasonable price. I'm not a Green fan but with the Tan top, it's a nice combination....:cheers


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

Too Many Projects said:


> The VIN tag has been off for some reason too. Those are not original rivets.


It is my understanding that the original rivets for the vin tag had a hole thru them like the car in mention has( I realize they reproduce original rivets which can make it easier to appear real but still be a clone. Not helping the cause at all to keep cheaters from cheating). Or was that for the later years? Now the rivets on the data plate has more of a modern rivet with the stud still present. Is that correct?



05GTO said:


> :agree
> 
> The vin tag will probably come back for a GTO, notice the serial sequence number on the vin is over 29,000 and the data plate build date is the 3rd week of November 64. The fisher hardtop body number on the data plate is only 4378 which is a realistic number for 2 +/- months of production.


Since the vin is 237 and it doesn't have the "N" GTO option, why would it come back a GTO? If it's based on the seq # being over 29000, then the vin tag would have come off a different car since the data plate doesn't have the GTO option. Is that making any sense?

The importance of doing homework before we buy.... I think it's human nature to sometimes learn the hard way, at least it is with me on many issues....


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

mxriderae said:


> and we bought this one for my freind .. what do u guys thik about it ?
> is ti Real GTO ?
> Pontiac : GTO:eBay Motors (item 160385590709 end time Dec-15-09 05:57:22 PST)


Is it at least titled a GTO? What got me about the ad is, they're selling a numbers matching GTO for "real cheap"(according to the ad)........... Why?



Too Many Projects said:


> I'm not a Green fan


Easy now..... That's ok, I didn't take it personally.....


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

68greengoat said:


> Is it at least titled a GTO? What got me about the ad is, * their selling a numbers matching GTO for "real cheap"(according to the ad)........... Why?*


Look at his phone #. :lol::lol:


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

Rukee said:


> Look at his phone #. :lol::lol:


Kinda like' "don't call us, we'll call you"......


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

68greengoat said:


> Since the vin is 237 and it doesn't have the "N" GTO option, why would it come back a GTO? If it's based on the seq # being over 29000, then the vin tag would have come off a different car since the data plate doesn't have the GTO option. Is that making any sense?


In my opinion, the data plate and the vin tag are probably not from the same car. I would venture to say the VIN tag is from a late 65 production date (since the vin number is in sequence) and was probably removed from a true GTO, whoever changed the vin tag was not aware of the accessory code on the data plate. (5N indicating the GTO option on Pontiac and KC cars, ) I would be willing to bet the dealer trying to sell this car was scammed as well.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

05GTO said:


> I guess my point is, the data plate and the vin tag are probably not from the same car. I would venture to say the VIN tag is from a late 65 production date (since the vin number is in sequence) and was probably removed from a true GTO, whoever changed the vin tag was not aware of the accessory code on the data plate. (5N indicating the GTO option on Pontiac and KC cars, ) I would be willing to bet the dealer trying to sell this car was scammed as well.


It would be interesting to see the PHS for the VIN, wouldn't it. He says the title is for a LeMans, so if that's true does the title have the same VIN as the car .... Maybe the state make a mistake on the model. It's possible. This is interesting...


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

I guess we came up with the same conclusion. You had a more detailed reason why. Like I've said in the past, I'm learning from the best, 05'.

I'm not happy for mxriderae. I don't like to see anyone get scammed. It's too bad this kind of thing is becoming more prevalent as each year passes. Greed being the driving force........


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## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

simple solution to all this...

find a lemans and keep it a lemans, seem to be far fewer of them out there these days. plus they're cheaper and just as readily modified


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Too Many Projects said:


> It would be interesting to see the PHS for the VIN, wouldn't it. He says the title is for a LeMans, so if that's true does the title have the same VIN as the car .... Maybe the state make a mistake on the model. It's possible. This is interesting...


My `65 GTO title just says `65 PONTIAC. It doesn't say GTO anywere in it and doesn't even show a 'model'. Just 2DR sedan for the body style and AUTO for the chassis type.


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## mxriderae (Dec 15, 2009)

Rukee said:


> My `65 GTO title just says `65 PONTIAC. It doesn't say GTO anywere in it and doesn't even show a 'model'. Just 2DR sedan for the body style and AUTO for the chassis type.


don`t know about the others ??

Guys i want to know do they title the 65 GTO as GTO or lemans as long as they have the same vin # ??


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I'm in California, and my '65 and '67 pink slips, which were issued to me in '82 and '83, are like Rukee's. "65 Pontiac 2dr sed" and "68 Pontiac Cvt." (they got the year wrong on my '67). No mention of model line whatsoever.


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## mxriderae (Dec 15, 2009)

Then why those people titled this cars as Lemans ?
it is in NJ


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

I have a 67 Camaro and the title just has Chev for make. No reference at all in the model/body box.
My 70 Chevelle has Chev for make and 2dr in body/model box.
I don't have a title for my GTO yet.....it is still pending.

Call PHS and order the documentation and put this to rest. It will tell you definitively what the car, or that VIN, was built as.


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

In 65 the GTO package was an option on the lemans so the vin will start with 237, it is difficult to say how each state titled the 65 GTO, Some may list it as a Lemans, Lemans GTO or GTO. The PHS documents call it a Tempest GTO,

Pontiac Historic Services - 1965 GTO Order Form - Page 1

The only way to tell if the car is a true GTO is to order the PHS documents using the VIN number and compare those documents to the vehicle color, build date and options listed on the data plate.


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## The FOZ (Jun 27, 2010)

*Similar situation*

Hello, I have a similar situation with a 65 GTO? I'm purchasing. I don't believe you can tell from the VIN# if it's a true GTO option LeMans unless you request the info from PHS. My understanding is if you look at the data plate (& the data plate is actually from the car) you should be able to determine it's a GTO optioned car by looking for a 5N or a 5NW. 5 standing for the 5th option group (GTO package), N for Pontiac, MI, and W for manual trans. There is a lot of conflicting information out there and I can't guarantee all this is true but this is what I come to believe from my research. The 65 I'm buying looks like a GTO in all respects and has a non original motor. The body, chrome & paint all look terrific so I'm going to put out $8600 for it as I figure I can't lose. Hope this is helpful and looking forward to hearing back from someone who can verify or enlighten me. Thanks! Steve


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

The FOZ said:


> N for Pontiac, MI,


Hey Steve,

The 5N (N in the 5th group) on the data plate indicates the car is a true GTO on cars built in the Pontiac, MI and the Kansas City, MO plants. The Baltimore, MD and Fremont, CA plants can only be verified with the PHS documents.

Welcome to the forum,


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