# Possible lifter noise or maybe exhaust leak from headers?



## Matt 68GTO (Feb 19, 2021)

Yesterday we pulled the valve covers off to have a look see if we could find whatever was making this slight ticking noise. We didn’t see anything out of the ordinary but still have the ticking noise. 
here is a video of the engine running with valve covers onhttps://share.icloud.com/photos/0ilbACSBgtS-fv4XVz7UMSkOQ
and here is the video of the engine running with valve covers off 





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here is photos of each set of rockers,springs,etc.(from divers side) as well as the inside of the valve cover. i did notice on something on the top of some of the rockers there seems to be scratching on the top.there is no major scratches on the inside of the cover though. Does anybody see anything not normal here?Or can anybody help further diagnose this?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

A good way to test for interference:

Put lump(s) of modeling clay, "Play Doh", etc. on top of the areas where you suspect something might be happening, reinstall the covers, then turn the engine over through a few revs BY HAND via the center balancer bolt (don't start it!).  Since you won't be starting the engine, as a precaution you can put rags, paper towels, plastic wrap, foil, 'something' to cover the various holes/passages to ensure that none of the clay can get into places where it's not supposed to be such as the oil drain-back holes.

Remove the covers and check the lump(s). If anything's hitting, it should be evident from the deformed clay. 

You'll want to make sure nothing is hitting, either on the outsides of any of the rockers or in the centers around the rocker nuts - make sure the back insides of the rocker slots aren't hitting the nuts, in other words. 

You absolutely to NOT want those rockers to be hitting/touching anywhere they're not supposed to be. The shock loads from those impacts, no matter how slight, will eventually cause the roller bearings to fail/come apart. "Much hilarity ensues" and it's no fun.

Bear


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I suggest posting your video to Youtube and then linking to it here. For security reasons, many of the users probably won't have the ability to download your file.

I have not been able to watch you video, but there are often clearance issues with rollers, poly's, and stock valve covers. Plus, if a poly is touching the valve cover at all, then the valve cover will work like an amplifier and your valve train noise will be much louder.

Is this a new build? Roller cam?


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

It sounds to me like an exhaust leak.


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## integrity6987 (May 10, 2017)

unrelated - but noticed the accelerator pump link is not in the hole closed to pivot as is normal.


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## Matt 68GTO (Feb 19, 2021)

BearGFR said:


> A good way to test for interference:
> 
> Put lump(s) of modeling clay, "Play Doh", etc. on top of the areas where you suspect something might be happening, reinstall the covers, then turn the engine over through a few revs BY HAND via the center balancer bolt (don't start it!). Since you won't be starting the engine, as a precaution you can put rags, paper towels, plastic wrap, foil, 'something' to cover the various holes/passages to ensure that none of the clay can get into places where it's not supposed to be such as the oil drain-back holes.
> 
> ...


Hey Bear, on the center where the bolt goes on the very last rocker arm there was what appeared to be scraping







all of the other ones are fine and are still the orangeish color.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

What you're seeing are called 'witness marks' where there's been metal to metal contact.

Operating the valve springs in an engine is THE biggest single point of parasitic power loss. Consider, 16 valve springs, at max lift each one 'reflecting' over 300 pounds of force back through the rocker, pushrod, lifter, and onto the cam lobe. At 4000 rpm (remember the cam turns at half crank RPM) that's more than (2000 rpm/60 seconds per minute) X 16 springs X 300 pounds = *160,000 pounds* of force being generated by the valve springs and absorbed by the other parts every _second. _Looking at it from the other direction, the cam lobes have to be generating that much force every second just to operate the valves. With that in mind, it's not hard to see why having anything binding up or hitting is very bad.

Yeah--- that's not good. It'll run like that for "awhile" until it doesn't -- at which point the bearings in the rocker arm will let go and put shrapnel all through your engine. If you're really unlucky, it'll happen at RPM, the rocker will jump sideways (after it has beaten the crap out of the valve stem and retainer) and come off the pushrod, and the pushrod will get shot through the valve cover and maybe even through the hood. 

Did you check and verify all your pushrod lengths to make sure the contact patches/valve train geometry on the valves are where they need to be? Check to make sure you've got adequate clearance between the rockers and the retainers through full travel?

That's the thing about changing factory parts for aftermarket parts, especially in the valve train. Everything affects everything else, and it all has to be right.

Bear


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## Matt 68GTO (Feb 19, 2021)

BearGFR said:


> What you're seeing are called 'witness marks' where there's been metal to metal contact.
> 
> Operating the valve springs in an engine is THE biggest single point of parasitic power loss. Consider, 16 valve springs, at max lift each one 'reflecting' over 300 pounds of force back through the rocker, pushrod, lifter, and onto the cam lobe. At 4000 rpm (remember the cam turns at half crank RPM) that's more than (2000 rpm/60 seconds per minute) X 16 springs X 300 pounds = *160,000 pounds* of force being generated by the valve springs and absorbed by the other parts every _second. _Looking at it from the other direction, the cam lobes have to be generating that much force every second just to operate the valves. With that in mind, it's not hard to see why having anything binding up or hitting is very bad.
> 
> ...


we haven’t done any measurements. However we assume the engine builder had these to spec. What do yo recommend us looking at?


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## Matt 68GTO (Feb 19, 2021)

BearGFR said:


> What you're seeing are called 'witness marks' where there's been metal to metal contact.
> 
> Operating the valve springs in an engine is THE biggest single point of parasitic power loss. Consider, 16 valve springs, at max lift each one 'reflecting' over 300 pounds of force back through the rocker, pushrod, lifter, and onto the cam lobe. At 4000 rpm (remember the cam turns at half crank RPM) that's more than (2000 rpm/60 seconds per minute) X 16 springs X 300 pounds = *160,000 pounds* of force being generated by the valve springs and absorbed by the other parts every _second. _Looking at it from the other direction, the cam lobes have to be generating that much force every second just to operate the valves. With that in mind, it's not hard to see why having anything binding up or hitting is very bad.
> 
> ...


So what exactly am i looking for? should we have the rockers replaced due to the “witness marks”? if replacing the rockers what else should be replaced with it?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Matt 68GTO said:


> So what exactly am i looking for? should we have the rockers replaced due to the “witness marks”? if replacing the rockers what else should be replaced with it?


It's really tough to say at this point. At the very least, I'd do my best to also look at the corresponding spot on the rocker nut to see if there's marking there too, just to try to confirm that it has in fact been hitting. If you can't see it, mark the edge of it with a sharpie or something so that you can remove the nut completely and still be able to tell exactly how it was 'clocked' when it was installed. That nut is hardened steel though so it might not show anything even it it has been hitting, but I'd still check.

While you're at it you should be able to see a wear line across the top of the valve stem where the tip of the rocker was riding. That line should be very close to dead center on the valve stem. "Very close" is a judgement call. It's ok for it to be offset "a little" but not "a lot". As a rule of thumb, as long as the wear pattern touches and crosses the exact center of the valve stem, it's probably ok. If not, that's a sign that the pushrods are the wrong length. If the mark is 'high' and more towards the intake manifold, they're too short. If it's 'low' towards the exhaust/headers, then they're too long. 

Even with an acceptable wear pattern though, if they're "just a little too long" that can make it more likely for the back of the rocker arm slot to touch the rocker nut and that's a no-no even if the wear pattern is reasonable.

It's possible that one that's marked is the source of the ticking you were hearing.

Check all 16 rockers to see if you can find similar markings on any of the others. 

Just because the others aren't marked, doesn't at this point guarantee that everything is right. 

I know you're not going to want to hear this, but if it were mine everything about the top end of that engine would to me be suspect at this point and I'd be very hesitant to involve the engine builder until I'd either checked it all over myself, or gotten "a second opinion" from another builder. Even good builders sometimes make mistakes, and not all builders are good ones. 

Just to get started I'd probably remove all the rockers and look them all over, and the nuts, and the valve stem wear patterns and see how it all looks. Make sure you keep everything in order so the parts can go back in exactly the same spots.

On that one that has the marks, and any others that do, also remove the pushrod and roll it across a flat piece of glass to make sure they aren't bent. Something's got to give whenever the mechanism binds up, and frequently it bends pushrods.

Replacing rockers won't do you any good if the new set continues to get marked like that. The first order of business is to get whatever's causing that problem corrected.

Those look like Harland Sharp rockers -- are they? Do you know what ratio they are?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Just start/run the engine with the valve covers off - one side at a time. You won't need to run it very long. If you are worried about oil running out onto the exhaust manifold, just have a rag handy. You won't be getting the engine that hot as you won't be running it long, just enough to see everything moving correctly and listening for noise. Then put the valve cover back on if you are satisfied, and do the other side.

Checking the valve movement across the valve stem as *BearGFR *has written of would be a good idea while the valve cover is off. I would only check an intake/exhaust valve on one cylinder, not all of them. This should be enough to let you know what the others are - which should be the same.

Assume it is not a simple adjustment of the poly locks?

You did not indicate what the cam specs are or if roller cam or flat tappet. Never used a roller cam, but it is not unheard of that some of them will have a ticking noise as a normal thing. Too thick of an oil can create this ticking as well. So what oil are you using? I would stay away from synthetics and use a conventional type oil as this is preferred and can make a difference.

The mark on the rocker arm, in my opinion, doesn't look like it is from something hitting as I can't see how that would happen. However, as *BearGFR* pointed out, it is possible with the roller rockers to hit the valve covers - so check this as he mentioned. You can get extra thick valve cover gaskets which can provide a little more clearance, or even a valve cover spacer which comes in several thicknesses.

So I would not go into panic mode just yet, but do the appropriate checks outlined here and see what turns up. The more checks you do, the more advice that can be given to narrow the noise down.


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## Matt 68GTO (Feb 19, 2021)

BearGFR said:


> It's really tough to say at this point. At the very least, I'd do my best to also look at the corresponding spot on the rocker nut to see if there's marking there too, just to try to confirm that it has in fact been hitting. If you can't see it, mark the edge of it with a sharpie or something so that you can remove the nut completely and still be able to tell exactly how it was 'clocked' when it was installed. That nut is hardened steel though so it might not show anything even it it has been hitting, but I'd still check.
> 
> While you're at it you should be able to see a wear line across the top of the valve stem where the tip of the rocker was riding. That line should be very close to dead center on the valve stem. "Very close" is a judgement call. It's ok for it to be offset "a little" but not "a lot". As a rule of thumb, as long as the wear pattern touches and crosses the exact center of the valve stem, it's probably ok. If not, that's a sign that the pushrods are the wrong length. If the mark is 'high' and more towards the intake manifold, they're too short. If it's 'low' towards the exhaust/headers, then they're too long.
> 
> ...


I’m not 100% sure i’ll have to look at the engine recipe again. However we won’t be touching anything till the weekend any other advice on what to look for while inspecting?


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## Matt 68GTO (Feb 19, 2021)

PontiacJim said:


> Just start/run the engine with the valve covers off - one side at a time. You won't need to run it very long. If you are worried about oil running out onto the exhaust manifold, just have a rag handy. You won't be getting the engine that hot as you won't be running it long, just enough to see everything moving correctly and listening for noise. Then put the valve cover back on if you are satisfied, and do the other side.
> 
> Checking the valve movement across the valve stem as *BearGFR *has written of would be a good idea while the valve cover is off. I would only check an intake/exhaust valve on one cylinder, not all of them. This should be enough to let you know what the others are - which should be the same.
> 
> ...


The cam used is a COMP CAMS - Thumper Cam Information / Thumpr 227/241 Hydraulic Roller Cam for Pontiac 265-455 (SKU 51-600-11). We use VR1 10w-30. I just find it odd how that rocker was the only one with that scarring though. Another thing is that the ticking noise is only while the engine is running. While cranking it sounds really healthy and that nothing is ticking or binding.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Matt 68GTO said:


> The cam used is a COMP CAMS - Thumper Cam Information / Thumpr 227/241 Hydraulic Roller Cam for Pontiac 265-455 (SKU 51-600-11). We use VR1 10w-30. I just find it odd how that rocker was the only one with that scarring though. Another thing is that the ticking noise is only while the engine is running. While cranking it sounds really healthy and that nothing is ticking or binding.


Yep, could be the Comp Cams lifters as I recall those are the ones that can have a ticking sound. Do a web search and you'll find a few remarks on hydraulic roller lifters, so might be normal. Here are a few assorted web forum reply's I found:

"I have Comp Cams hyd roller lifters in my motor and like yours they make a lot of noise. Engine builder has tried adjusting the valves several times to limit the noise but to no avail."

"Another contributor to valve train noise is hydraulic intensity. Everyone wants a cam that will open the valve quickly, hold it wide open then close it quickly, and roller cams are great at this. A stock cam, designed to be quiet, will have a long closing ramp and a large hydraulic intensity, gently closing the valve. Aftermarket cams with low hydraulic intensity close the valve much more rapidly, and the valve slamming closed creates noise."

"I have been chasing an irritating lifter ticks for years. I did all the common stuff talked about on these forums and others... Proper push rod length, proper guide plate setup, heavier oil. I tried multiple big name lifters and rocker arms, still noisy. 

Since heavier oil did delay the issue, It became clearer to me the issue was not with my setup but with both of the big name performance lifters I was using. 

*The solution...* Johnson brand lifters. I could tell right out of the box and into the motor they were better. The roller wheel is not forked, leaving the lifter full bodied. *They also fit much tighter in the lifter bore. This reduced rock in the lifter bore* which was VERY pronounced with the big name roller when lifted by the cam. They also adjusted easier and just felt more consistent when adjusting." 

"GM spec on lifter to bore clearance for a hyd roller lifter to function properly is .0015 to .0018". One needs to check lifter bores and lifters to make sure you fall in the General clearance window. This is how the lifter gets oil so it can function. Just as important as rod and main bearing clearances.

If a lifter will rock in the bore it should not be assembled. If you have to hammer a lifter in a bore it should not be assembled. I have now "Fixed" 2 customers this year that had aftermarket block builds and they thought that "tapping" the lifters into the bores was okay. Both of these builds were $20K plus and both are now being rebuilt."


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## Matt 68GTO (Feb 19, 2021)

PontiacJim said:


> Yep, could be the Comp Cams lifters as I recall those are the ones that can have a ticking sound. Do a web search and you'll find a few remarks on hydraulic roller lifters, so might be normal. Here are a few assorted web forum reply's I found:
> 
> "I have Comp Cams hyd roller lifters in my motor and like yours they make a lot of noise. Engine builder has tried adjusting the valves several times to limit the noise but to no avail."
> 
> ...


So you believe that we are fine and we are just hearing the noise based on the cam? You mentioned Johnson brand lifters. Do these remove that ticking noise from the lifters? About that scarring mentioned earlier do you think we should still investigate that further? My main question is if something were incorrect with the valves or lifters or whatever it may be would the ticking noise remain during cranking or will it only be noticeable while engine running? Because as of now we are only getting the ticking noise when ending is running.


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## gkraushaar (Oct 4, 2020)

Matt 68GTO said:


> iCloud
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> 
> Sign in to iCloud to access your photos, videos, documents, notes, contacts, and more. Use your Apple ID or create a new account to start using Apple services.
> ...





Matt 68GTO said:


> Yesterday we pulled the valve covers off to have a look see if we could find whatever was making this slight ticking noise. We didn’t see anything out of the ordinary but still have the ticking noise.
> here is a video of the engine running with valve covers onhttps://share.icloud.com/photos/0ilbACSBgtS-fv4XVz7UMSkOQ
> and here is the video of the engine running with valve covers off
> 
> ...





Matt 68GTO said:


> Yesterday we pulled the valve covers off to have a look see if we could find whatever was making this slight ticking noise. We didn’t see anything out of the ordinary but still have the ticking noise.
> here is a video of the engine running with valve covers onhttps://share.icloud.com/photos/0ilbACSBgtS-fv4XVz7UMSkOQ
> and here is the video of the engine running with valve covers off
> 
> ...


I'd find a piece of 3/4" conduit 12" long and use it like a stethoscope and hold it against all the parts where you think its clicking. Magnifies the sound very well.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Matt 68GTO said:


> So you believe that we are fine and we are just hearing the noise based on the cam? You mentioned Johnson brand lifters. Do these remove that ticking noise from the lifters? About that scarring mentioned earlier do you think we should still investigate that further? My main question is if something were incorrect with the valves or lifters or whatever it may be would the ticking noise remain during cranking or will it only be noticeable while engine running? Because as of now we are only getting the ticking noise when ending is running.


Nope, I don't believe anything because I am not there myself to see/listen to it. The info is just that, more info for investigation. You will have to do the necessary testing and deductions as to what the "ticking" is - a problem or "normal."

A solid flat tappet cam will have "ticking" - that is normal, and I have run a solid cam. The use of Rhodes hydraulic lifters can have "ticking" - that is normal, and I have run a set. I have never run a roller cam/lifters, so I do not know what is "normal", but from what I read of others, this can be normal. If I knew my valves were all adjusted and when I ran up the engine with the valve covers off and saw oil spurting from all the rocker arms and listened to the "ticking", I would be able to know if the "ticking" was coming from the rockers, or deeper in the engine, ie the lifters. You should also be able to hear if a single "ticking" or they are all "ticking." If a single ticking, I would have more concern. If all ticking, then I might conclude that it was normal as long as I also saw oil flowing from each rocker arm and over the valves. 

And, it could still be an exhaust leak at the head/manifold flange, but check to be 100% sure it is not a blown out gasket.


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## Matt 68GTO (Feb 19, 2021)

PontiacJim said:


> Nope, I don't believe anything because I am not there myself to see/listen to it. The info is just that, more info for investigation. You will have to do the necessary testing and deductions as to what the "ticking" is - a problem or "normal."
> 
> A solid flat tappet cam will have "ticking" - that is normal, and I have run a solid cam. The use of Rhodes hydraulic lifters can have "ticking" - that is normal, and I have run a set. I have never run a roller cam/lifters, so I do not know what is "normal", but from what I read of others, this can be normal. If I knew my valves were all adjusted and when I ran up the engine with the valve covers off and saw oil spurting from all the rocker arms and listened to the "ticking", I would be able to know if the "ticking" was coming from the rockers, or deeper in the engine, ie the lifters. You should also be able to hear if a single "ticking" or they are all "ticking." If a single ticking, I would have more concern. If all ticking, then I might conclude that it was normal as long as I also saw oil flowing from each rocker arm and over the valves.
> 
> And, it could still be an exhaust leak at the head/manifold flange, but check to be 100% sure it is not a blown out gasket.


We pulled that one rocker that had the scarring and we were able to see that it was in fact making contact with the nut that holds it down.







.

All of the other rockers had at least a .004 or (.10mm) gap.









the push rod also had a little bit of wear we’re not to sure of that is normal wear but it also was not bent from what we could tell after rolling it over glass.
















on the valve spring the wear from where the rocker sits was pretty much dead center maybe a little on the low side.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Matt 68GTO said:


> We pulled that one rocker that had the scarring and we were able to see that it was in fact making contact with the nut that holds it down.
> View attachment 141068
> .
> 
> ...


OK, now you are getting somewhere.

What is the rocker arm ratio, 1.5 or 1.65, or even 1.7? When going up to the 1.65/1.7 ratio rocker and high lift cam, the pushrod hole in the head needs to be elongated otherwise the pushrod will generally strike the inside of the hole and can bend. Look at those pushrods that go through the cast hole in the head and rotate the engine to activate the rocker arm to its fullest lift point. You should see some clearance between the pushrod and that pushrod hole.

Second question if the above is OK, is the witness mark from the guide plate as the pushrod goes up and down?

The clearance for the poly lock and rocker arm is .004"? I assume this is when it is at full lift? If so, not enough. You may have the incorrect poly locks for that style roller rocker arm. They look long enough, but there are different lengths. Looking at the one in your photo, it appears the locking set screw is right near the top of the poly lock. I would like to see it a little deeper set into the threads. So rather than purchase a new set of poly locks, one solution is to use a hardened washer under the poly lock to raise it up and this will then cause the set screw to sit deeper down into the poly lock body. It will also provide more clearance between the rocker arm and poly lock nut so it is not hitting.

You must use hardened washers. Here is what has been recommended, but I have never had to go this route myself, but should work unless there is some clearance issues between the sides of the washers and the inside of the rocker arms. You can use 1 or 2 washers as needed. Might be worth a try and inexpensive.

Pioneer part #S-1018 - 7/16" ID Chevy Head Bolt Washers - for use under poly-locks & 7/16" Big Block rocker arm studs. 



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With the poly lock sitting taller, it may be too high to install the valve cover - and may be the reason a "shorter" poly lock body was used in place of what was actually needed for your set-up. If this is the case, then they make a thicker valve cover gasket, or go with the valve cover spacer - which would be my choice. You can also go custom valve covers which are made taller to begin with, but are generally expensive being custom, and some have experienced the taller covers will hit the power brake diaphragm in some applications.


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