# Buying 455 Edelbrock heads w/068 cam



## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

:cheersSo, I'm buying a fresh 71 455 with edelbrock performer RPM heads with and 068 cam, never ran. The bottom end is a fresh rebuild with .030 stock pistons, so the seller says, but I believe him, friend. I'm assuming stock for 71 is 9.5 compression but I don't know the CC of the stock heads, so the E heads should up that. I don't know the head gasket width, but can fix that with some good advice.. Any experts out there with a guess on power? Should I upgrade the rods? Also, what is the best cam for a 2000 stall, cruiser/torque over the 068. I am considering a roller cam and new rods, but I won't really be beating on it, so this motor should live fine in my 70, the Jury. And give it street cred were the judge couldn't finish the deal, lol..
I have a turbo 350 with a shift kit, and a 3.36 open rear, posi coming next. I have a turbo 375 in the garage to bolt in, how much do I have to cut the driveshaft to bolt the long shaft Pontiac 400 in it?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I can help with a little of this. Stock for '71 455 was 8.2 compression, done with 111cc and 114cc heads. The Edelbrock heads at 87cc will give you over 10:1 compression,which will be fine because they are aluminum......will need the same fuel that a 9-9.5:1 iron headed engine would need. No issues there. An 068 is pretty small for a 455....it would give you a lot of low end and run smoothly and well, though. Absolutely upgrade the rods....new forged are less than $300 a set, and cheap insurance. Others will chime in with more info, hopefully..............


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Depends on which heads they are - the round port E-heads come in two finished chamber sizes, 72cc and 87cc. I'd recommend either going a-head (ar ar ar) and pulling one of the heads to measure for sure, or checking for part numbers. I *think* mine have the part number stamped into the ends of the heads by the Edelbrock name, but don't remember for sure.

To really get an exact figure for compression you'll need to know the piston deck clearance anyway, and the heads have to come off to measure that.

Just "rough guessing it", 72 cc's with "usual" dimensions on everything would put you at 11.3:1 with 72cc heads, 9.9:1 with 87cc heads. (.040 gaskets, 4.18 gasket bore, .020 deck volume, 6cc's in the valve releifs)

I'd never recommend building a Pontiac that's ever going to see any 'spirited' driving without putting forged rods in it. Consider them relatively cheap insurance.

I love my solid roller cam, but they're on the pricey side so get ready - also if you go that route you'll want to put oiling restrictors in the lifter bores. Its not hard, I did mine myself, but you do have to thoroughly clean the block afterwards to make sure all the thread cuttings are removed.

How are you planning on driving it? --- Highway? Street? etc.

Bear


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

They are performer RPM heads, it's stamped on the front of the head, so I assume these are them. Edelbrock 60599 Edelbrock Pontiac Performer RPM Heads
.575 max lift, so could be hard on a stock cam. 72 CC heads, so 11:1 compression, assume he did something to address this. I want to buy the motor, pull the pan and drop it in. But I know more, so I could put a couple grand more in and have a sweet motor. Funds being tight, throwing it in and upgrading later is a better idea. It has 10 10 crank and plastigauged. I'm doing it as a cruiser/show car, aluminum heads don't burn the paint off. It is an upgrade to a car that sits in the garage, it shouldn't ever see the strip, lol.. Dougs headers are in the future also. 
What kind of torque/hp will the motor make as is?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

You say it's got the 068 hydraulic cam now? 1.5 rcokers? Factory intake and a QJet?

Bear


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

No, edelbrock performer intake, no carb. But seller has a couple 750 Demon double pumpers in the Corner I'm going to try to work in the deal. Stock rockers on it now, no nuts on them, just holding pushrods in. I need to talk to the builder to see why and what. Price is right, but need to ensure it was built to Pontiac specs.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I think 11:1 CR will be marginal and probably too high for pump gas with aluminum heads. The 87cc head would be a much better choice for a street driven car on pump gas.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

FYI - both the 72cc and the 87cc heads wear the name "Edelbrock Performer RPM" - you have to use the actual part number (or measure) to be sure what you've got.

I agree that 11:1 is pretty risky for pump gas. You will find people doing it successfully by running the "right" cam ("big and rowdy" enough to manage cylinder pressure), but everything's got to be dead nuts on.

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The problem with big and rowdy cams bleeding off cylinder pressure at idle and low rpms, is that it makes up for the lost pressure in spades at mid range and full power. You can cheat a bit at light throttle and get away with it, but when you nail it, you pay the piper. Best to adjust CR to the fuel available, IMO. BTW, Bear, I for one appreciate your 'pocket protector' humor (a-head)!! LOL


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

geeteeohguy said:


> The problem with big and rowdy cams bleeding off cylinder pressure at idle and low rpms, is that it makes up for the lost pressure in spades at mid range and full power.


:agree 'Dat be true and is also another reason why Bear doesn't push the envelope. Right now the Beast is at 10.02:1 with aluminum heads.  

In a conversation I had with Jim once I asked him about that very thing (high compression with a nasty cam), and he explained that the idea behind it all is that once the engine gets up into the power band and volumetric efficiency (VE) kicks in causing the pressure to jump, you're at an RPM where eveything is happening so fast that the motor tends to not have 'time' to get into detonation. Detonation is most likely at low rpm under heavy load, like going up a steep hill or pulling a trailer. That's the theory anyway and apparently some people apply it successfully, if they're being truthful.

Regardless, the point is that pushing compression ratio to the limit in a street engine is a risky proposition for at best a low to moderate benefit.

(Oh, and thanks for the kind words about my lame joke..  )

Bear


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

I just searched it, the Performers are 87 CC, the RPMs are 72 CC. Hopefully he put dished pistons in it. I need to do more research, but am still stoked on getting the motor. So, what cam is the best for a street motor? Something that still pulls vacuum, and don't need a huge stall, but will "maximize" the combo?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Jet, will need the CR before choosing the cam.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Here's the link from Edelbrock. The dif is the chamber size. Just read these heads are ram air 4 designed, so need new headers, not D port. How much are dougs headers, $800? Hopefully the PO already put the good rods in it..
Edelbrock.com - Cylinder Heads - Pontiac - Performer & Performer RPM 
$1000 for a roller cam retro kit? May just go hydraulic and put ZDDP in, lol..


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

As Mr. PBody is known to say, there are lots of ways to skin this cat. Yes, these are round port heads and take different headers. I'm running Doug's with 1-7/8" primaries on mine and they fit "reasonably well". I bought them in raw steel and used them that way to break in the motor on the dyno, then sent them out to JetHot in Arizona for their "extreme stainless" ceramic coating. Breaking in an engine will get the headers hot enough to ruin any coating, FYI...

If I had it to do over, I'd seriously consider MadDog headers. I hear they're very high quality and fit well.

Total header cost "the way I did it" was in the ballpark of what it would have cost me at the time to buy them coated from Dougs, and the coating I got is better than theirs. JetHot was a real pleasure to deal with too.

Ifn' it wuz me, I'd at least pull the heads and the pan just to be able to look everything over and take some measurements (like deck clearance, actual relief volume in the piston tops, etc.). Maybe even pull one piston so you can get a look at what they are, whether they're press-fit pins or Spirolocks, etc. It'd also be a good time to eyeball all the various oil gallery plugs and make sure they're all sealed well (especially the infamous hidden one in front of the distributor), make sure the lower dipstick tube and oil pump drive shaft are in place --- all the stuff that tends to cause forehead-slapping moments when they're discovered later after the engine's in the car. Also before you drop it in you'll want to double check the markings on the harmonic balancer and make sure it's not lying to you when it indicates TDC. Sometimes the're off a few degrees - mine was, and it was a brand new SFI-rated balancer. It's an easy problem to fix with a timing tape, but you have to know about it first.

Cam --- well, that's a personal choice based on lots of factors including how you're going to use the car, what rpm range it's going to "live" in, cost, rear-gear, transmission (and converter if it's an auto). After my experience, I'd never use a hydraulic roller (lifters are too heavy and all that mass is counterproductive to rpm) and although my first choice for me (obviously) was a solid roller I'd also consider a flat hydraulic or flat mechanical (in that order). First things first though.. I'd recommend you check the motor out first and find out for sure where it's going to be on compression because that might push you towards a cam to help guard against detonation problems.

Bear


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

I'm thinking the same thing, tear it down and get a good look see at everything. I've been looking at the butler site for some ideas. Once I know what I have, I'm going to contact them for cam and maybe rods. I like there numbers and pump gas combos. Right now I'm trying to get my 66 decent enough to go to the body shop. Sanded all the PO's fiberglass work out of the floorpans, so I'm still itching today, rotten work. Also trying to rebuild the front windshield channel, it was swiss cheese. I want glass in it and in primer, then I'll let them do the remainder of the metal work and bondo. So, am preoccupied finishing that right now. I hate body work.
Just looked at mad dog, not many pics, but good looking stuff and priced right.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Pulled the pan tonight, everything looks new, nice hone on the cylinders, new pistons, new oil pan and pump. Guess the builder was OCD, said PO had ton of money in the motor. It has 12 side bolts on the pan and intake, but I beam rods, N on the crank, 6 point rod bolts. Cam looks like an 068, stock hydraulic cam, not big roller, didn't pull the intake. I'm buying the motor tomorrow, what RPM range is this motor good for now. I can bolt it in with a new pan gasket, everything looks fantastic. Car is a cruiser, not going to be abused, lol.. $2500 with raIV E heads, Good? I'm trying to have him throw in a Demon carb, or cool finned valve covers. He's not budging. Had a check in my pocket for it. I'll buy new headers, they are the good heads. But, if I could run it as is for now that would be cool.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

sounds like a deal, just the RA E heads will set you back over 2K w/valves and such. should be fine with N crank and rods up to 4500 without any worries....hell mine barely sees over 3500 especially with the highway gear.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Good at $2500? Yeah, I'd say so - you dog!!!  :cheers

With a mild cam like that, you don't NEED to spin it. Your problem is going to be hooking it. That thing's going to make mountains of torque on the bottom.

Bear


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

I got the motor, it's sweet! Can't wait to install it. Tried to post pics, but it gives me a fail message. Will try soon. Woo hoo, got my first aluminum head motor in my life!!
Anybody got a set of RAIV headers for break in. May get the mad dog headers Bear, then coat later. Do they fit better or as good as Dougs?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Gorgeous! You -KNOW- it doesn't count until we hear/see video of it running, right? :cool

Just to be clear, I don't have first-hand experience with Mad Dog, it's just that I've heard good things and haven't heard any bad things.

I'm running Doug's myself (D-567's) and they fit "ok". Had to relocate the brake distribution block from the inside of the drivers side frame rail to the top of the frame rail, re-bend the back drive linkage to the trans, and turn the rear bolt on the passenger side lower control arm around so that the bolt head is on the 'inside' next to the header tube (and the header will have to be loosened when I eventually need to pull the control arm on that side to rebuild it).

Bear


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

jetstang said:


> I got the motor, it's sweet! Can't wait to install it. Tried to post pics, but it gives me a fail message. Will try soon. Woo hoo, got my first aluminum head motor in my life!!
> Anybody got a set of RAIV headers for break in. May get the mad dog headers Bear, then coat later. Do they fit better or as good as Dougs?


Totally Badass deal there Jet! Nice looking motor and if you leave it as is should be a torque MONSTER :willy:.

Personally I'd bondo over the Edelbrock markings , paint the whole thing that robbins egg blue, RA manifolds and put a stock air cleaner on it.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Thanks all, nice to get one and not have to do the work, lol.. Just need the correct Pontiac paint?
Bear-Doesn't count? Possesion is 9/10ths of the law.. I'll scan and post the measurements the PO had later. I've never had a motor that didn't run, but I hear you, isn't going to sound like your motor, but should sound alright. 068 is fine in 389's, but I dont' want it to idle like a stock motor either.. But that would be the cool sleeper, my mufflers are loud now, stainless edelbrock RPM's, not quiet. 
More about Mad dog headers, sound good, but are they really better, I got the check book out for dougs, who, what, where??
What part of I don't have a 4 speed don't the header manufacturers understand, just bundle the tubes close together and call it good, I don't have a Z bar. Pontiac='s extra $'s.. Why do the have to be a PITA? Will my 70 headers fit my 66, or dif PN?
My buddy looked at it, said the rods were shot peened and freshened, said run it as is.. I am, should be plenty sporty with a 3.36 single spin.. Going to run as is. Will show real fast if he built it as a Pontiac, or a Chevy. But he was an enthusiast and knows his stuff, so hopefully...
Got a buddy with a 200R4 that "works" for $400. Said I don't need a dif shifter than the turbo 350 and automatically goes into overdrive, don't need an OD shifter?? What do I need to get it strong enough for my motor? Car runs and drives great now and is done, now I'm redoing it, oh, the life of a motor head. If I do the trans now and get OD, then stick a posi in the 10 bolt Chevy, only weak link is the rear, and if I don't put it on slicks much, it should live.
And with a little cam for the motor, stock stall should work.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I just love hearing Pontiacs run - that's all 

I'm not familiar at all with later overdrive transmissions so I shouldn't offer an opinion probably - just make sure whatever you use is strong enough to live with 500+ lb. ft. and you should be golden. 

In general, the larger the motor, the "more" cam it can tolerate without being too rumpity. It all has to do with air flow velocity through the engine and the bigger displacements just naturally generate more flow velocity --- bigger lungs = more flow. What makes an engine lope at idle with a nasty cam is a direct result of the overlap period - the time when both valves are open. The smaller the engine, the lower flow velocity will be at low rpm, and the easier it will be for the flow to actually reverse directions so that burned exhaust starts getting sucked back into the cylinders before the exhaust valve closes. That phenomenon is what actually produces the lopey sound -- what's really going on is that the engine is so inefficient that it's barely able to run. We associate that sound with a 'hot' motor because we know that once rpm starts to increase and flow velocity goes up, that cam's going to start 'working' and making power because the inertia of the fast moving gasses prevents that reversion from happening and the longer valve open times helps the motor get it lungs full.

Just be careful with the stock rods. If it were me I'd put a hard "never exceed" redline on it of about 5200 rpm.

Bear


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

5k tops, I like my rods in the motor, alot.. With that "small" cam power will not be building that high anyway.
I stopped by the tranny shop about the 2004r tranny. Tranny guy said that you need the Grand National guts to make it performance oriented, and he can't build it strong enough to take all the torque. But, said I could get one from Bowtie Overdrives for $1700 that would hold it, that's the stage 3 tranny. Here's the link, good stuff. Bowtie Overdrives
So, I'm sticking with the turbo 350 for now, and have options for later.
Mad dog headers called me today, asked if the header were the same for a Grand Prix, I don't think so. Said he didn't have any pics, told me he didn't know how they fit, and they build to order and it would be 6 weeks before they could build them, so they are out. Wasn't very impressed with them at all. SO, going to price Dougs again and ask about break in with coated headers, and how bad it will mess them up. All is good.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I bought my Doug's in raw steel, used them to break the motor in on the dyno, then sent them out to Jet Hot in Arizona to be coated. That worked really well for me... After I got the motor in the car and was in the process of setting total ignition timing the first time, I did manage to get the headers glowing cherry red  - I can see some spots on them now where the coating looks "different" because of that, but so far it's still hanging in there.

What you found with the 2004r is the same thing I've been seeing with other OD transmissions - none of them 'out of the box' can stand up very long to a healthy Pontiac, and having one built that can is an expensive proposition. That's why if I ever go OD on my car I'll probably keep the TH400 I have and just add a Gear Vendors OD behind it. That combo I know will handle the torque, and as a bonus I get 6-speed capability by engaging the OD between each gear change.

Sorry to hear about Mad Dog ---- I don't know for sure if Grand Prix would fit - I know starting in 69 the Grand Prix was also built on the a-body chassis....

Bear


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Do you have ram air IV heads on yours? I downloaded the dougs catalog and they show round port heads and D port, no note says for RAIV heads. So now I'm confused. But headman headers on summit say RAIV, but list port style as round. I thought round were only HO heads. Dougs does have round port listed. I just need to call them. Talked to my paint supplier guy and asked if he had any at home coatings that worked, he said POR had one, but it didnt' hold. He said VHT from Autozone holds up, hmm, that's what I used on my others.
I have a gear vendor in my 454 SS behind my TH400. I tried to split shift at the dragstrip, gear vendor does not shift fast enough to split shift as they quote, just made me over rev 2nd gear, thought I would pick up some time by hitting the od instead of 3rd, didn't work.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Jet No problem with the TH350 behind mine, trans guy said after he re-built it, it should be good up to 500HP but i was also worried about the torque. Do not think its seen North of 3000 RPM, dont need 5500 with these stump pullers .


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

That's good to know about the GV unit, thanks! Isn't it usually the case that the reality of a product doesn't match the claims? Still, I keep hoping...

Yes, Ram Air IV exhaust port configuration and the roundport E-Head ports are the same in terms of header fit. What will work on one will work on the other. There are 4 different Pontiac heads (that I can think of right now) that all had round ports on the exhaust side: 68 1/2 Ram Air II, Ram Air IV, 455-HO (71 up), and 455 SD. There may have been slight differences on the intake side, and internally on the exhaust side, but the exit port size/shape/spacing, flanges, and bolt holes for manifolds/headers on these heads are all the same. Most of the aftermarket aluminum round port heads also have this same bolt pattern and spacing. There are some exceptions but those are really high-end pretty much race-only heads that require completely different custom intake manifolds and exhaust (CV-1 heads for one example).

I started out running Ram Air IV's on the Beast, but switched over to "Mr. PBody Special" E-Heads when one of them developed a crack in an exhaust port.  The same headers fit just fine on both sets of heads.

Generally speaking, a commercially applied baked on (or however they do it) coating will be far superior to anything you can apply yourself. That's why I went with Jet Hot. My cost to purchase the headers raw and send them out to be coated was very close to what it would have cost me to buy the headers coated, and Jet Hot's "Extreme Sterling" coating is better quality than what they would have come with from Doug's.

Bear


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

If you think about it, to use the gear vendor as a 6 speed you have to turn the gv off everytime you up shift, and have both match or you are downshifting at WOT. It just doesn't work.
Good info about the headers, thanks.
My buddy has a supercharged 454 making 750 horse and runs a "stock" turbo 350 and it lives. He lifted at the Hamm drags last week and ran a 10.60 blowing up.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Ram air 4 manifolds are $440 shipped through the parts place. That would be a nice comprimise for now, break in with those, leave em til I get the funds form the nice Dougs. THey do look really cool and be would be a convresation piece. What you think?
1968 74 GTO TRANS AM SD RAM AIR IV EXHAUST MANIFOLDS | eBay
Might actually fit better and not cost that much HP.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

For sure the Ram Air manifolds will fit better, and if you buy them from the manufacturer (Ram Air Restorations) you can even get them with larger diameter passages. They're not going to make as much power as a good set of headers, but they're quite a bit better than regular manifolds --- and for many people giving up a little power is far outweighed by how well they fit and in avoiding the headaches that headers introduce to subsequent work on the car (access to oil filters, suspension pieces, having to re-route brake lines, etc.). 

There's another option for you ---- there's a guy over on PY who's been making tri-y headers for Pontiacs. I sort of hesitate to make the recommendation though because 1) again I've got no direct personal experience with them or they guy making them and 2) there's a long running thread over there about how some people have literally been waiting YEARS to get their headers while others get them within 3-6 weeks. Tri-y's are going to fit better necause you don't have so many tubes going all the way down to the collector, and some of the engine air-flow theory books I've read actually like tri-y's better for performance than 4-tube headers.
Anyway, they're "out there" -- just be very careful and do your due diligence on researching them before you decide.

Bear


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Is tunnel_port mad dog headers? I just read the thread on the tri Ys on PYs, look cool, terrible delivery. I'll buy the dougs from summit and not deal with any crap. That guy owes headers from 05! What would the warranty be if you ever got the headers. Oh, tribal tubes is the thread link. Really nice looking headers.
2nd guessing myself, putting cast iron manifolds on aluminum heads? So rusty manifolds on pretty aluminum. Not going to happen.
8/29
Ordered the headers today, damn pricey. better fit great, got them uncoated. Can you paint them with VHT, then have the coated, or leave them bare for break in. I'm thinking I may be too lazy to take them off for coating, lol..


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