# Does this problem sound like the wrong clutch fork?



## CoveKid19 (Nov 18, 2021)

A little background. Several years ago, I overhauled the M20 at the same time I built the engine and ever since, it didn't like to slip into first or second gear. Engine running, in neutral, I'd push the clutch in and it wouldn't go into gear. I'd usually have to pull it into third or fourth and then it'd slip right into first. Other than that, the trans worked flawless and shifted perfectly when driving, including downshifts. At the same time I built the engine/trans, I replaced the linkage, clutch, fork and bellhousing while I was at it. 

Fast forward to last month. I decided to pull the trans and install my spare M20, which was overhauled by Ben's transmission in SanBerdoo back in the 80's but never used until now. The spare has the exact same issue with not going into first/second gear but works great otherwise.

So I checked and double checked everything from the clutch adjustment to the shifter adjustment, all was good. Then just for grins, I pulled the shifter (original Hurst Comp) and overhauled it. New shims and bushings made a huge improvement and is like new, but still a no go slipping into gear.

After reading the forum last night, I came across a thread about there being a wrong fork being sold as a suitable replacement, I believe it was Jim talking about it, so I checked mine. Sure enough it has the offset dimple for the rod so it's not the original part number. Just for troubleshooting purposes, I adjusted out all free-travel and it would finally go into first but still required a overly strong push. I didn't want to tighten it up any farther so I just returned it to the 1" free-travel.

Is there enough difference in forks that this could be the issue, or should I check bellhousing alignment next? I apologize for the long post and I thank you for reading.


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## CoveKid19 (Nov 18, 2021)

Forgot to say the gear oil is 40oz of Sta-Lube GL-4, 85w-90.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I had a simila r problem with shifting in my 70 vette, M20. It left me stranded twice... 

The most critical issue is to ensure that the Hurst shifter is pinned in neutral when the rods are adjusted. If this was not done and verified, then there's no point in talking about it.

If that was done, then you can get a Lakewood adjustable clutch pivot for the fork, which will suck to install... or, IMO, the best route is to install a heim joint adjustable clutch rod. Either will give you more/ adjustable throw


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## CoveKid19 (Nov 18, 2021)

I know the shifter is adjusted correctly as I've done it so much over the years that I can do it in my sleep. After the no-go last month I pulled it and installed new shims, bushings and TIG'd the stick wear from the roll pins which made the entire assembly like new and made a huge improvement when driving. As for the adjustable pivot ball, that ran across my mind several times since dealing with from the beginning. That would probably do the trick and give more throw but the problem has to be something I replaced as this issue began when all the parts were replaced. I ordered a fork yesterday, the correct one according to AMES, so I'll compare them when it arrives and start there. I'm definitely going to pull the trans again, regardless because this is driving me nuts. The new Tremec TKX is starting to intrigue me.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I am going to replace my TH400 with a Tremec. However I wouldnt go that rout just to cure youre issue. If you're going to pull the trans either way, and you have the correct fork on its way, then you already have your answer.

The adjustable pivot is another cure, but I'd only use it after being sure that the fork was correct.

Hiem joint linkage, OTOH is a dramatic improvement over stock. It removes nearly all of the slop and it overs infinite adjust-ability for wear and throw. I will always use it, regardless of whether or not the other parts are right. It's simply a far better design.

But if youre that frustrated with all of it, just get a hydraulic clutch from MDL and be doe with it all.


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## CoveKid19 (Nov 18, 2021)

Tried to locate the # from the fork and couldn't, so I put it back up on jack stands and pulled the trans again. Looks like it is the wrong fork, P/N 14066235. Good thing anyways as the "overhauled" trans was already leaking from the counter shaft. I think I set a new personal best, 55 minutes from wheels up.


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## Duff (Jan 12, 2020)

Most everything I buy that's "just been overhauled" wasn't. Sorry to hear about your muncie, compare your fork with the correct one that Ames sells.


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## CoveKid19 (Nov 18, 2021)

Duff said:


> Most everything I buy that's "just been overhauled" wasn't. Sorry to hear about your muncie, compare your fork with the correct one that Ames sells.


Ain't that the truth.
I was checking the throw with this fork and it will only move the TO bearing about a half inch with full travel of the pedal, even less when free-play is factored in, so I'll compare it to the new fork when it gets here. On a positive note, I checked the bellhousing alignment while I had everything apart and surprisingly it was just under .005" runout. That's one less thing I'll have to do if/when I decide to go with a 5 speed.


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## Duff (Jan 12, 2020)

CoveKid19 said:


> Ain't that the truth.
> I was checking the throw with this fork and it will only move the TO bearing about a half inch with full travel of the pedal, even less when free-play is factored in, so I'll compare it to the new fork when it gets here. On a positive note, I checked the bellhousing alignment while I had everything apart and surprisingly it was just under .005" runout. That's one less thing I'll have to do if/when I decide to go with a 5 speed.
> 
> View attachment 147461


I missed in your post, that you already have an Ames fork ordered, proving old people should be banned from the internet, sorry about that.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Duff said:


> I missed in your post, that you already have an Ames fork ordered, proving old people should be banned from the internet, sorry about that.


Old people don't have to apologize or retract statements. We can be wrong, it's our right, - that's the beauty of being old. People just write it off as dimentia or senility or alzheimers, or all three and never question us.


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## Duff (Jan 12, 2020)

I prepped all day yesterday, last night and this morning for a colonoscopy, thank GOD it's over, just had a chicken strip meal after having nothing to eat for 39 hours and like 10 minutes. Going to watch MANNIX and a little Perry Mason and going to bed. CHEERS!


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## CoveKid19 (Nov 18, 2021)

Got the go ahead this morning to buy a Tremec TKX so who am I to argue. Now to figure out exactly what I need.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Nice, I'm jealous...I'm just getting over the guys with aluminum heads and now I have to deal with this 🤣 good luck and keep us posted 👍 I just have to keep thinking paint job, paint job, paint job 😁


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

CoveKid19 said:


> Got the go ahead this morning to buy a Tremec TKX so who am I to argue. Now to figure out exactly what I need.


Just call MDL. They'll give you a quote and then you can do your own math. Your car is already a manual, so you'll have a few less things that you'll need.


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## CoveKid19 (Nov 18, 2021)

armyadarkness said:


> Just call MDL. They'll give you a quote and then you can do your own math. Your car is already a manual, so you'll have a few less things that you'll need.


Ordered from SST yesterday. They said the trans should ship by mid to late December.


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## CoveKid19 (Nov 18, 2021)

Got the fork in the mail today so I thought I'd post a follow-up. Looks like there's a significant difference in the geometry along with a 1/2" inch difference in length between forks. A quick mock-up and test shows an increase in TO bearing throw of 1/4" with the Pontiac correct fork. While I was at it, I decided to make a bracket and relocate the return spring to the bottom of the fork. The original spring to the top arm of the Z-bar never seemed to work good. New bracket attaches to a starter mount bolt and works much better.


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Old people don't have to apologize or retract statements. We can be wrong, it's our right, - that's the beauty of being old. People just write it off as dimentia or senility or alzheimers, or all three and never question us.


Mostly us old folks have CRS. Cant remenber sh.. stuff


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

CoveKid19 said:


> Got the fork in the mail today so I thought I'd post a follow-up. Looks like there's a significant difference in the geometry along with a 1/2" inch difference in length between forks. A quick mock-up and test shows an increase in TO bearing throw of 1/4" with the Pontiac correct fork. While I was at it, I decided to make a bracket and relocate the return spring to the bottom of the fork. The original spring to the top arm of the Z-bar never seemed to work good. New bracket attaches to a starter mount bolt and works much better.
> 
> View attachment 147951
> View attachment 147952
> ...


fork on the right would have more throw


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## Duff (Jan 12, 2020)

What was the outcome? Did the new fork fix your tranny issues?


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## CoveKid19 (Nov 18, 2021)

Duff said:


> What was the outcome? Did the new fork fix your tranny issues?


Yes the correct fork corrected the release issues and works perfect with the TKX transmission.


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

CoveKid19 said:


> Got the fork in the mail today so I thought I'd post a follow-up. Looks like there's a significant difference in the geometry along with a 1/2" inch difference in length between forks. A quick mock-up and test shows an increase in TO bearing throw of 1/4" with the Pontiac correct fork. While I was at it, I decided to make a bracket and relocate the return spring to the bottom of the fork. The original spring to the top arm of the Z-bar never seemed to work good. New bracket attaches to a starter mount bolt and works much better.
> 
> View attachment 147951
> View attachment 147952
> ...


Anymore pics of the bracket? The guy who installed mine put an all therad in and Im having a bitch of a time trying to adjust it. Its above the headers yours is below. I asked him for the clutch rod as I gave it to him, no answer. He also carved my scatter shield to alowthe all thread. It all works fine but the clutch engages at the top of the pedal I would like it a bit farther down couple inches anyway.


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## CoveKid19 (Nov 18, 2021)

Droach6498 said:


> Anymore pics of the bracket? The guy who installed mine put an all therad in and Im having a bitch of a time trying to adjust it. Its above the headers yours is below. I asked him for the clutch rod as I gave it to him, no answer. He also carved my scatter shield to alowthe all thread. It all works fine but the clutch engages at the top of the pedal I would like it a bit farther down couple inches anyway.


Those were all I took and posted at that time. I think I changed that return spring bracket to a different setup so I'll have to crawl under there and take some more pics.


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

CoveKid19 said:


> Those were all I took and posted at that time. I think I changed that return spring bracket to a different setup so I'll have to crawl under there and take some more pics.


Did you sodar it? I would think so. I didnt ralize there are 3 thowout bearings for 4 speeds. I hope to someday install a 5 or 6 speed


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## CoveKid19 (Nov 18, 2021)

Droach6498 said:


> Did you sodar it? I would think so. I didnt ralize there are 3 thowout bearings for 4 speeds. I hope to someday install a 5 or 6 speed


The bracket in my post above is just an "L" shape and is attached through the outer starter bolt. I'll take some pics and post them later today. As for the TO bearing, most OE replacement clutches will use the short bearing. Once you start replacing bellhousings and pressure plates then all bets are off and the long bearing and adjustable pivot balls may be needed. The clutch kit I ordered for mine came with a bearing made with plastic/composite. The pic shows it in the center with my old Centerforce bearing on the left and a Timkin on the right. I ordered the Timkin to use when I installed the new trans.


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## CoveKid19 (Nov 18, 2021)

Here's a couple shots of the return spring/bracket that I added. It's just about 2-1/2" x 1-1/2" with three holes drilled to change the angle of the spring if needed.


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

CoveKid19 said:


> Here's a couple shots of the return spring/bracket that I added. It's just about 2-1/2" x 1-1/2" with three holes drilled to change the angle of the spring if needed.
> 
> View attachment 157747
> View attachment 157748


Not sure what or where Im looking I get the starter I see the header in pic 1 I guess I would need to climb under and take a look c. On the TO bearing I got a Ram clutch came with a good quality TO bear but it was to short. Once the longer one was installed it worked great I just need to adjust the clutch and Im pondering installing the correct clutch fork and getting rid of the all thread installed by the mechanic..It works good though just really hard to adjust.


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