# Paint estimates??



## mbergin (Jun 19, 2012)

Hi All,

Posting this for my bro who's got a 68 GTO he looking to get painted. Some minor surface rust on the hood and trunk, quarters, fenders, trunk, frame and floorpans solid. Is it normal for a body shop to only quote time plus materials without a ballpark of cost? 

Any help most appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I don't know what's normal, but I can tell you as having painted my own car - that the vast majority of the cost involved is just sheer time/labor. Spraying the material is the quickest and easiest part of the whole job.

Bear


----------



## mbergin (Jun 19, 2012)

Thanks Bear. I get nervous as the guy chose will not provide any numbers or timeframe. I had an old car painted years ago and it was a 3300 quote and done for that price ( as I said, years ago ). Seems like a reputable shop but I'd hate to see my bro into this way over his head.


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

A friend of mine had a `66 done, granted there was a lot of repair that needed to be done (floors, trunk pan, rear quarters), but he spent $30,000.00. And it looks like it too.


----------



## mbergin (Jun 19, 2012)

I would think that any good body shop can assess a car and provide a ballpark figure on what the cost would be to repair and paint, of course with the understanding that rust and metal work would increase the cost. We've talked to 4 restorations shops, none would provide an estimate.....time and material only. Which means 15k up to 30k? Not sure if this is common practice.


----------



## 68GTO4004Spd (Jun 19, 2008)

I would say keep looking for another shop. I wouldn't do it if they are not going to commit in writing an estimate or cost and timeline. I know guys who's cars have been at the body shop for 3 years and they still aren't close to being done. If the shop does collision work too, all those jobs go in front of your project.


----------



## TonysGoat (May 16, 2015)

15-30K is a reasonable ballpark assuming no major rust is found & you keep the same color. Check the BBB for any complaints on the shop, make sure they have been doing business as that name for several years (some switch names because of bad reps) and if possible, get a reference or 2 from others who used them.

Keep in mind other costs quickly creep in like door and trunk weather striping, re-chroming trim etc.


----------



## mbergin (Jun 19, 2012)

That's exactly what I needed to know. We've already done the background work on the shop and they seem pretty solid. He already bought all trim, weatherstrip, bumper, etc so now he is just having the body done. They're going do disassemble down to the quarters, paint and reassemble. Hopefully comes in at 15K but until they blast, all bets are off. Thanks for the info, all. Much appreciated.


----------



## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

I've been in the restoration biz for 43 years. In today's market with cars this old there's no way I'd quote a fixed price. If I did you can bet I'd cover my back side with a heavy (worst case) quote, and that way I make proper $$$$$ when it goes south. They usually do go bad once you're hip deep into it. These cars have been in the hands of owners and shops that might not have had the respect for the cars that they deserve. I don't do too many muscle car restorations as I'm quite busy with heavy American Classics like Packards and Duesenbergs. My clients also enjoy something approaching 150 significant and provenance making awards from their respective peers/clubs. The average quality refinish of a well restored and properly fitted muscle car body runs about 180-200 hrs alone. That's block, paint (as a complete assembly in some cases), and full cut and polish, ready for final assembly. If the client wants a truly exact OEM finish (it can be done) that can add another 25-40 hrs depending upon the color/finish. Sheet metal repairs (panel replacement, floors, braces, etc) can't go by any form of "book price" from the past. Most replacement body panels are so far off that clients that I'm used to serving wouldn't accept it at any price. That additional labor to make right isn't on the shop doing the work as it's not us that made those crummy panels, but it's on us to make it right. 

At the end of the day you get what you pay for. Some of my work that's over 20 yrs old still scores perfect or nearly perfect (99.5 recently). It's that longevity of the work which is the big intangible value and can only be assured by reputation and, most important, mutual trust. Maybe this helps, maybe not, but going with a known and respected value up front is the best value there is. Value vs price. Which means the most?


----------



## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

*Here is what I found in the California Bay Area*

Media blast a car - about 800 to 1200. If you can find someone who will do it with glass. 

Bodywork per hour is between 80 and 100 out here. That is a guy with 10 years experience. 

A basketball size dent that is not wrinkled is about .7 hours. 

A winkle on an edge upto 3cm is like 2 hours of work. That is welding pins in and pulling it then hammer and dolley.

9 square inches of rust repair that require welding is like 3 hours of work. Add .5 for each edge that needs to be folded. 

Strip a car of external hardware. 6 hours. 

Block sanding a car 12 to 15 hours

Wet sanding and buffing a car 5 hours to 7 hours

Paint and primer would not be much more than 500 dollars.

Each coat of a car about 1 hour. Usually 3 coats are done. 4 with a clear coat.

Now there are a few things I did differently. I actually liked a body shop that did insurance work because most of those companies are required to provide lifetime warrrante on the cars done under insurance repairs.


----------



## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

BTW - I spent 12.5 on my 67 Camaro. 

Now I stripped the car clean. No interior, No motor, No glass. 

I had the car media blasted at Meyers with Glass and it was an even 1000.

That opened up a ton of worms

Bottom rear window channel was cut out and replaced. That was a replacement pannel that was precut. I think that was 4 hours. 

my pans and trunk were ok. I had very very little rust on the car. 

It included painting the engine bay, under hood, door jambs and inside the trunk. 

Interior was painted black. 

reinstalled all the pannels, doors and did the gaps. door locks were put in by body shop. Took car home and pulled fender and front end off to put engine back in and the body shop put the fenders back on and aligned them.

I installed the windows, bumpers, trim, trim tags and interior. 

I got 3 coats of Roman Red and 2 coats of clear coat. Got a wet sand as well. 

I had no hockey or ralley stripes put on. 1 color on the outside and dash was painted black. 

He gave me a 15 year warente on it. 

I found the guy because he did the OEM work on my wife's Lexus. I was extreemly happy with the end result. I will have him do my GTO when I figure out exactly what I am going to do with it.


----------



## mainegoat68 (May 5, 2011)

The shop should be able to give you an approximate high/low ballpark figure. On the estimates I got from 2 high end shops for my 68, they both said 3 to 4 weeks work, at $$ per week, and approx. $1,000 in supplies. none of this was firm, but both said it would be a fairly accurate guess. In my case it was $4,500-7,500. I already have the car stripped, epoxy primered, all metal work done, ready for final prep work, jamming, and painting. Just waiting now for the call.....


----------



## crustysack (Oct 5, 2008)

You should DEFINITELY be able to get a ballpark quote, but it will come with stipulations that if they find anything questionable labor time will increase. DO NOT drop off a car to a shop thats just saying "time and materials" , that gives them a blank check and no incentive to finish car. You need to do some research on paint shops in your area and find the one with the best reputation of providing a good product at a fair price. These days it is very easy with social media to find the good and bad shops.This shop may be more expensive but down the road it will be worth it. That being said you can pay anywhere from 5k-30k on a paint job, depending on what part of the country your in.


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Just for an example we bought new fenders, door shells, goat hood, goat tail panel and new windshield channel metal for a 66 Tempest for $2,790 shipped to my door. $3000 in block work and lining it all up and $1000 in primer/paint/clear with my SW discount. $8000 gets these cars REAL nice. $30k for some?! Id rather buy three $10k hot rods than pay $30k to paint one... Dont go crazy... Hell there is an absolutely immaculate '65 4 speed car for sale in my area for $28k right now. Complete car!


----------



## mbergin (Jun 19, 2012)

So my bro just got bill# 3. He's into this for 16k with another 5k due for future work. For 16k he's got full disassembly, media blasting (no significant rust noted, the restorer said this fall in the top 10% as far as condition post media), primed and sealed, now block sanding the quarters (no rust, just height and low spots). Looks like that they put in 34 hours on the right quarter and part of the roof and 9.5 on the left quarter. Seems excessive.....thoughts?


----------



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

mbergin said:


> So my bro just got bill# 3. He's into this for 16k with another 5k due for future work. For 16k he's got full disassembly, media blasting (no significant rust noted, the restorer said this fall in the top 10% as far as condition post media), primed and sealed, now block sanding the quarters (no rust, just height and low spots). Looks like that they put in 34 hours on the right quarter and part of the roof and 9.5 on the left quarter. Seems excessive.....thoughts?



Excessive is a relative term. How do you define "excessive?" My opinion. Never give any shop the ability to dip into an open wallet. If they are any good and have been doing this as their mainstay, they should be able to break down all the work into specific groups, ie, disassemble frame, blast/strip frame, prime, paint, re-assemble; strip/prep/prime/block quarter for final paint, etc.. Good thing you have no rust repairs - I could only image that price tag.

Here is also where the owner can save - having the ability to disassemble/reassemble some of the items himself and doing some of the "grunt" work.

With 34 hours into a single quarter that did not need any repair work, I'd say what he is going for is a concours perfect body and paint job. You said he will be done for another 5K so not unreasonable (21K) if its ready to drive out of the shop fully assembled & painted. With the body as fine as it is going to be, I hope the rest of the car is up to task with every other nut/bolt, engine, interior, glass, chrome, etc. as perfect as if it rolled off the showroom floor.

I see a lot of money invested that you may never recoup should you ever sell - but if you keep it a lifetime, keep it in pristine condition, have it fully insured, then the expense could be justified over a lifetime and it'll be something to enjoy - again, _excessive_ becomes a relative term.

I would never restore/rebuild a car without a firm estimate range anymore than I would build a home without a set price range. I don't know what you paid for the car or its mechanical condition, but you have 16K plus 5 K to go for 21K (assume this means your car is completed and handed over to you as a driver?). Sometimes cheaper to purchase a car already done in the price range you will be topping.


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

mbergin said:


> So my bro just got bill# 3. He's into this for 16k with another 5k due for future work. For 16k he's got full disassembly, media blasting (no significant rust noted, the restorer said this fall in the top 10% as far as condition post media), primed and sealed, now block sanding the quarters (no rust, just height and low spots). Looks like that they put in 34 hours on the right quarter and part of the roof and 9.5 on the left quarter. Seems excessive.....thoughts?


Impossible to judge without seeing the car and knowing exactly what it needed, but - speaking as someone who did all of my own paint and body work myself, and therefore gaining an understanding of how much labor is really involved - No, it's not the least bit excessive for a top tier high quality result.

Bear


----------



## mbergin (Jun 19, 2012)

Thanks PontiacJim and Bear. Just to be clear, the 21k (16 plus additional 5) will most likely not be the end. At this point, still needs fenders, hood, trunk lid, glass,plus full reassembly and paint. Unfortunately, the car was meant to be a driver and was communicated to the restoration shop and will be reiterated. I told my bro not to cut the 5k check until the restoration shop can provide a number now that the media blasting was done and no rust exists.


----------



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

mbergin said:


> Thanks PontiacJim and Bear. Just to be clear, the 21k (16 plus additional 5) will most likely not be the end. At this point, still needs fenders, hood, trunk lid, glass,plus full reassembly and paint. Unfortunately, the car was meant to be a driver and was communicated to the restoration shop and will be reiterated. I told my bro not to cut the 5k check until the restoration shop can provide a number now that the media blasting was done and no rust exists.


Ouch! Feeling your pain, but at what price does this guy stop??? I might at this point get a quote, and a firm one, for putting the car in primer and together. I hate to see him get it in primer then hit you up for another 5-8K to paint a color coat.


----------



## Charles Rummel (Apr 30, 2017)

I'll go with .....RUN! If they can't do the math for the customer, guess what you can expect when it comes to doing anything else for you.


----------



## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

So I dropped my car off on Monday to have the body work done and then have the car painted. I got him to agree to 19K all in. 

This will get a bit long. I have 2 64 convertibles. Both 4 barrel 2 speed autos. 1 is drivable and works. I wouldn't hesitate to take it on a 800 mile trip. 
The other is a basket case but it is 100% original. Down to the shocks. Was going to start with he drivable one but elected to do the basket case first so my neighbors don't have to look at it under a cover for another year. 


I am in California and here is what is exactly being done for 19K

My car is complete. There are no missing pieces. Everything is attached to the car. Abiet in poor shape. 

Front fenders are not in great shape but I was lucky have included when I bought the car 2 replacements fenders. They are from a Lemans and have the holes for the trim in them. Those will be welded up. 

Doors- I was lucky enough to have 2 really good replacement doors shown in when I bought the car that need very little work. Price includes those being replaced, and all the hardware and mechanicals being transferred. 

My floor pans need to be replaced. I have the 2 piece floor pans. Price includes those being installed.

My trunk pan is garbage. It needs to be replaced. I got a 7 piece floor pan kit included when I bought the car and the price includes those being installed. 

Both quarters are in poor shape. I have to supply quarter skins. But the price includes him hanging and welding them in. Skins are like 600 for the pair. 

Both rear wheel wells are garbage. I will purchase the wheel wells inter and outer and he will install them. Those are about 500 total for the left and right. 

My hood has small pin holes in the front. Not from rust. It looks like tears from a .22. He will pull those dents out weld up the holes. 

My rear deck lid needs to be split on the rear seam. It will need to be cleaned then welded back together. 

He will completely disassemble the car. Everything is coming out. 

He will give me the seats, rear diff, transmission, engine, control arms. I will remove bushings grease fittings etc. I will give them back to him for media blasting and powered coating or regular painting depending on the part. I have to have the seats stripped and new foam and covers installed. 

He will separate the frame from the car and media blast both the frame and the car. 

He will powder coat the frame, EDP epoxy the body, do all the prep work for the paint. he will paint the convertible top frame.

He will paint the car with 5 coats of paint, and 4 coats of clear. He will color / wet sand the car.

He will paint a ruberized coating on the underside of the car and interior hidden compartments of the car. Inside the door wells, floor boards. He said he will do the trunk as well. I am not sure If I will have him do the trunk yet. 

I will have all the bushings calipers suspension parts rebuilt or purchased new. 

He will install them onto the car, but will not be responsible for brake, and or fuel lines. 

He will install the rebuilt engine and transmission in the car but not be responsible for hooking up the wiring, fuel lines hoses etc. 

He will install new gaskets and seals that I provide him.

He will allow me to use his shop to install a new wire harness, do any work on the frame. He said he will let me use his trailer to go back and forth if I need to bring the car somewhere else to do work.

He will install new glass that I provide him. 

He will basically re-assemble the car with any part he took off the car with a new one I provide him or a rebuilt one I provide him. He will not do any mechanical engine, transmission, drivetrain work. 

He will steam in the new carpets, install rebuilt seats, new door cards, refurbished steering wheel, and reassemble the convertible top so it is tight and comes up and down properly. 

He will not be responsible for the convertible top mechanical portions, Rams, hydraulics, pump, motors. 

He will give me a 10 year warrantee. 


I am responsible for the chrome. He has a guy that will do it and he thinks it will be like 1500 for the bumpers, window trim, front grill, door trim, center console, rear tail light panel.


I have to find some one to go through this motor. It is the original motor to the car with original heads, carb, transmission. I do not want to do anything crazy with the motor. As stock as I can get it. I am not sure of the condition of the internals. He said he will have the drive train out in a week for me to pick up. A local guy here said 300 and he will pull the whole thing apart manga flux and clean it and tell me what he thinks. But I am scared because he said 6K to ball park the rebuild cost. I wanted to spend like no more than 3k on the high end. I see rebuild kits for 1200. I will post more on it when I find out what it needs.


----------



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Hmmm, sounds like a big project. My guess is that you will have near 42-48K into the car plus your purchase price. So you'll have a hefty investment, but a convertible will pull a higher return so I think you are not going to lose on this one. I would try to go as stock as possible as that will yield the highest return when the day comes.

The only problem I see right now is if the original engine turns out to be bad and is not rebuildable. Your highest value will be based on a numbers matching drivetrain. 

Should be a good looking car when done. Maybe post some pics of the progress. :thumbsup:


----------



## cij911 (Oct 25, 2017)

Tonyskala - That seems like a fun project and decent price. Where in Ca. are you ?


----------



## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

I am in the SF Bay Area. It does not get any more expensive than where I am located. 

I think my all in with the car purchase will be 45 to 46.

But I have to get that motor rebuilt for no more than 3K. 

I budgeted 
3000 for engine rebuild.
3700 for the interior. 
500 for the transmission to be gone through. 
100 for steering wheel refurbish. 
1500 for both bumpers stainless polished and rear taillight panels a new interior pieces, front grill. 
200 for door locks and handles, antenna
700 for gaskets
300 Radiator
100 Carb rebuild 
400 Shocks and brakes including brake lines
250 Gas Tank
1200 for quarters and wheel wells. - Tamraz came in at 1,030 this morning including shipping. 
500 for bolts and screws
300 for exhaust
800 for wire harness. 
1000 for the convertible top mechanisms - rams, cylinder, motor and pump. 
200 for emblems
300 for lights bulbs, hoses, liquids
400 for tires
100 air cleaner 


My worry is this engine. If the block is cracked I don't think there will be much I can do with it. I will keep it just in case but fixing a cracked cast block is difficult. I have been accumulating a lot of parts and I do have a factory replacement 1963 service replacement block that is the 9773155 cast code that is correct for 64 gto but where the 79J and UID for the engine would be is is just stamped SR. That block is good and if the original block turns out bad I will just use that SR block. I understand it to be quite valuable because it can be used in any 64 with out really drawing a lot of attention to it not being 100% original. If the heads are bad I have 2 more sets of 716 heads that are redone and ready to go. I don't care much about the remaining internals. I want the exterior to be as original as possible.

When it is all back together All my spare part stuff is gong to be sold. So in 6 months I might list this service replacement block 716 heads, grill, trim, a ton of parts to help replenish the bank account.


----------



## cij911 (Oct 25, 2017)

Tonyskala - If you need an engine, here is a great option to consider : Len Williams Auto Machine


----------



## mbergin (Jun 19, 2012)

Hi Folks. Ive been out of pocket for a while but wanted to follow up on this thread. My bro is now 51K in with the outside of the car painted, no jams, interior, etc. and the trunk lid still needs paint. Needless to say, he pulled his car out and will deliver to another shop to complete. Unfortunately, the restoration shop was unscrupulous and just kept prodding him along. Hard lesson to learn.


----------

