# 2004r in my 66 gto



## matth66 (Aug 3, 2016)

so I’m about to do the 200 4r swap for my 2 speed power glide. I have an Auburn rearend with 373 gears. I was wondering what tips you guys could give me for what to look for in the tranny build and what torque converter you guys would recommend?


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## Sanders Speed (Oct 23, 2020)

Hello, what motor and power level is in front of the 200 4r, the later the model year of transmission you find the better, if you can find a factory performance unit(turbo ta, buick gn, monte ss, etc) the valve body and governor are the important pieces. Upgrade, front pump 10 vane, bigger boost valve, wider intermediate band and servo. Minimum these things. I have a nicely upgraded (duel feel 3rd gear,billet shaft, extra 4th gear clutch) 200 4r in a 68 GTO convertible with a 462 cid 3.55 gear. About the only thing I might do differently is not use a lock up converter. I have the lockup on a simple toggle switch. What I've read is the aftermarket setups are troublesome to get operateing right.converter is like 13 lbs lighter i believe without the lockup clutch system, have to plug a passage in front pump to run it. I bought C.K. PERFORMANCE book and parts. 2004R Hope this doesn't muddy the water for you. T.V. CABLE GEOMETRY setup is VERY IMPORTANT. Built right it's a great transmission.


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## matth66 (Aug 3, 2016)

Thank you for your input. The motor is the original 389 30/30 bore. Msd ignition. Resto mod tri power set up. Mild cam. DT headers. Nothing too crazy. Rear ended is auburn posi with 373’s


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

You will be much better off with a 700R4, 4L60, 4L60e or 4L80. The first 3 are basically a Turbo 350 with an overdrive, while the 4L80 is basically a Turbo 400 with an overdrive. The 200 has very weak internals, GM never used them for any H.D. use and to make one work and last costs over $3000.00 at a specialty shop. The last 700R4 I did cost $695.00 at the local transmission shop which included upgrades. It was put behind a 425 horse build.


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## matth66 (Aug 3, 2016)

I’m having the 200 built at my performance shop, the reason I chose the 200 was that it’s a bolt in replacement for my power glide. No drive shaft mod.


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

Shortening the driveshaft and buying the adaptor plate pales in comparison to the cost as well as the issues dealing with a 200. Just changing the speedometer gear to correct a speedometer calibration issue becomes major surgery.

But, not my time, money or choice. Good luck


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## matth66 (Aug 3, 2016)

I do understand a 200 is more costly but in regards to the Speedo gear, won’t you need to do the same thing on a 700? What other issues will I need to watch out for?


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

It takes about 5 minutes to swap out a speedometer gear on 99% of GM RWD transmissions. One screw, on the outside of the transmission, holding a retainer and the gear comes right out. Guess which is the 1%er.

On a 200 you need to drop the pan and remove the valve body to access the internals.

My suggestion to you is to do your own homework on GM OD's and not listen to people on forums. You could start by disassembling a 200 vs. any other GM RWD OD. The proof will be clear as day.

Also look into all the metallurgical property issues concerning the internal hard parts of the 200. You will see why GM killed the 200 after a few short years.


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## roger1 (Jun 25, 2020)

I'm planning on putting a 200-4R in my '69 GTO. I may go with one from Art Carr. Probably their 400-600 HP model. I don't need the 1,000 HP one they have. My 400 engine won't be over 450HP. I've got 3.55 gears and think about an 1800 to 2200 stall converter would be about right. I'd like to get a lock-up one too.
Butler Performance carries the Art Carr transmissions so I may buy it from them since they offer a complete kit. I don't see that they have a lock-up converter option on their website. I will call and ask about that when the time comes.


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## matth66 (Aug 3, 2016)

That’s awesome! Thanks for the input, checking out butler performance now😊


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## roger1 (Jun 25, 2020)

This should make everyone a believer:


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## matth66 (Aug 3, 2016)

So I checked out butler, they sell California performance 200 4R (art Carr) went to their website and seems to be a better price
Here’s the link





Art Carr 2004R Performance Transmission and Torque Converters


The Official Art Carr 2004R Transmission - California Performance Transmission stocks high performance 200-4R and 700R4 Automatic Transmissions, Torque Converters, Shifters and Racing Parts



www.cpttransmission.com


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

matth66 said:


> So I checked out butler, they sell California performance 200 4R (art Carr) went to their website and seems to be a better price
> Here’s the link
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know much about these, but my opinion is that if I were to go with any trans upgrade with the OD, I would just get a trans already built from a reputable and well know builder rather than the local guy or the do-it-yourself route.

You did post that you were having your trans built at your performance shop - so the warnings and heads up from *NOS Only *are a few good pointers to be aware of if you were still going that route, and I agree, there are weakness in most factory transmissions that need to be taken into consideration when choosing to have one built for you by your local guy. But if going with a ready-to-run trans, then the game changes.

There are a number of good companies that sell these and know their stuff, or they would not be selling them. I like that many do have HP ratings which can make for a better selection to fit your application. I also have to assume that any of the weak internals found in the stock transmissions have been addressed and improved upon, or again, they would be getting a lot of bad publicity here on the internet.

A lighter/smaller transmission also requires less HP to spin it. One reason a TH-350 can be a better choice over a TH-400 up to a certain HP/TQ level and even these can be upgraded to handle more HP/TQ.

*NOS Only* pointed out the speedo gear that could be an issue in matching it up to the rear gearing/tire combo, so I would inquire about this and see if the vendor/manufacturer offering the trans can have the correct gear installed for your application.


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## matth66 (Aug 3, 2016)

After checking out the art carr tranny recommended by roger1 I’m leaning in that direction. I really appreciate your input and recommendations.


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

For the record, Art Carr is one of the best names in the business that has been around forever.


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## matth66 (Aug 3, 2016)

NOS wanted to say thanks for your input. I put your recommendations to good use. I spoke with California performance transmission down in la. It’s the shop that sells art carrs 2004r’s. They were very knowledgeable and answered all my questions. Definitely leaning that direction


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## matth66 (Aug 3, 2016)

Oh and in regards to the Speedo gear, they only needed tire height and gear ratio.


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

FYI

California Performance Transmissions doesn't just "sell" Art Carr transmissions, they are Art Carr.

Long story not worth telling. Ask Art.


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## roger1 (Jun 25, 2020)

matth66 said:


> NOS wanted to say thanks for your input. I put your recommendations to good use. I spoke with California performance transmission down in la. It’s the shop that sells art carrs 2004r’s. They were very knowledgeable and answered all my questions. Definitely leaning that direction


Please share the details of what you learned on that call if you don't mind. I'm probably a few months away from when I'll be ready to make my decisions on this.


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## Greg Hill (Jul 15, 2020)

I’ve got a 65 GTO convertible with a .040 over 455 that makes around 500 hp. It’s got a 200 r4 and has had for 20 years. A good racing friend of mine did it and it’s been awesome. 12 bolt 3.73 rear. The only thing I would do different is do a 3.55 or 3.36 rear gear. The 200 r4 is a great street trans. We run a 3 speed 200 in my son‘s D/SA 70 Camaro and it’s bullet proof. I know some big block stockers that have a 200 that make 650hp and dead hook every time they leave the line. 1.28 60’ time. Do the 200 r4.


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## ricknkjo (Oct 12, 2013)

I just finished building my 66 GTO in March and used the California Performance 200r with a non locking 2200 stall converter and the oil cooler that Art recommended. It works great and was a true just bolt right in with no issues. I used a 3.73 rear gear and it is in the 2000 rpm range at 70mph.


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## 4rd4fun (Oct 24, 2019)

I put in a 200r4 in my 66 about a year ago- sorry don't recall the rear gears and it's just a stock 389 but the engine really likes that tranny, just cruises which is what i was after. had the trans shop build it a little- basically upgrade the weak points. speedometer is about 1mph off ( i don't think i could have gotten any where near that close)- been very happy so far.- good luck








200-4R Transmission: The Holy Grail of Power, Fuel Efficiency - Gearstar


With a little magic and some elbow grease, GM's 200-4R transmission can transform into your personal holy grail of power and fuel efficiency. Here's how.




gearstar.com


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## matth66 (Aug 3, 2016)

ricknkjo said:


> I just finished building my 66 GTO in March and used the California Performance 200r with a non locking 2200 stall converter and the oil cooler that Art recommended. It works great and was a true just bolt right in with no issues. I used a 3.73 rear gear and it is in the 2000 rpm range at 70mph.


Question for you, were you able to use your original dust cover (flywheel cover) or did you have to get a different one?


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## gtoearl (Dec 21, 2009)

Just for conversation, I have a 66 Gto with a turbo 400. 389 With Tri power... rear end is 323 gears... some years ago when I lived in San Jose California I wanted to convert to the 200r.  I looked around for a reputable transmission shop and the best price I could get was around $4000... given some of the posts here I should’ve looked further for a better price at that time. LOL

My goal was to, like many of you, to get an overdrive gear for freeway driving without the engine spinning at three grand. I ended up putting a Gear Vendors Overdrive behind the turbo 400. It was a fairly straightforward install, only having to massage the tunnel out a little more to receive the unit. I did opt to get a new driveshaft instead of cutting down my original one. Never know when my son finally gets the car if he would want to go back to a turbo 400 without the overdrive. LOL. As far as the speedo gear, they took care of that after I gave them the tire size and rear end ratio. The speedometer is right on. I suppose what’s nice about this unit is that if you want to play around with the gears you can manually shift through six speeds as it splits each original turbo 400 gear. I usually keep it in the auto mode and at somewhere around 40 miles an hour it shifts into overdrive. The result is I’m doing about 2200 rpm at 70 miles an hour. Perfect for what I need. All in I was about $3000.
Given your converting from a two speed this is probably not an option for you as it wouldn’t give you what you would need or want.


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## roger1 (Jun 25, 2020)

matth66 said:


> NOS wanted to say thanks for your input. I put your recommendations to good use. I spoke with California performance transmission down in la. It’s the shop that sells art carrs 2004r’s. They were very knowledgeable and answered all my questions. Definitely leaning that direction


If you don't mind, I'd appreciate you sharing what you learned from them in your phone call to them.


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## matth66 (Aug 3, 2016)

roger1 said:


> If you don't mind, I'd appreciate you sharing what you learned from them in your phone call to them.


Here is what I learned
My car is an original 389, with 30/30 bore
I’m about to drop a resto mod tripower set up on it . Stock the car was 325 4bbl. Stock with tripower was rated at 365. Cpt recommended the 400-600hp rated tranny.
I have 373’s in the rear and they said this tranny matches up with those gears real nice.
-They offer 2 torque converters
10” 26-2800 stall ( little more snap)
12” 20-2200 stall ( close to stock)

they have a universal dust cover (fly wheel cover)
3year/30,000 mile warranty
they asked for gear ratio and tire size so they can get the Speedo gear correct (thanks NOS)


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## roger1 (Jun 25, 2020)

matth66 said:


> Here is what I learned
> My car is an original 389, with 30/30 bore
> I’m about to drop a resto mod tripower set up on it . Stock the car was 325 4bbl. Stock with tripower was rated at 365. Cpt recommended the 400-600hp rated tranny.
> I have 373’s in the rear and they said this tranny matches up with those gears real nice.
> ...


Thanks for sharing. Are you going to pull the trigger soon? I'm probably 6 months away for my '69 project as right now I've got my body off the frame and focusing on all the body work needed. Like you I'm thinking that dealing with CPT directly may be the better route than going through Butler. Since it sounds like you are close to moving forward on this swap, I'd sure like to keep up with your install and be able to learn all the ins and outs through you.


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## matth66 (Aug 3, 2016)

I’m actually calling Monday to order the transmission. For sure I’ll keep you posted


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## Wild2inca (Apr 20, 2020)

Greetings All,
I purchased a 67 GTO earlier this year, it has the 2004R transmission in her. It is a Bowtie transmission Level 3 so capable for the 500+- hp my car puts out. https://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/catalog/catalog_inc/viewitem.php?ITEMID=13 Rearend is 3:55 12 bolt. It has been in the car now for about 7+ years or so and to my knowledge has been working perfectly. The previous owner did take it to the drag strip a few times, no bad repercussions from those experiences. I personally like the performance and shifting and the OD option for those longer trips here in CA. Hope you enjoy your experience too!


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

Although I have had plenty of success with the 700R4, 4L60e and 4L80 and would never consider using a 200, my next build will probably have a Ford AOD behind it. I hear quite a few builders saying they are bulletproof and simple.


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