# Machine shop litmus test



## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

So after being absent for awhile, I am starting to finally get going on my delayed project of rebuilding my numbers matching engine to my '65 GTO convertible. I still have a printed copy of my exchanges with Geeteeohguy and some other members of this forum with advice about how to go about my project.

But first I have to shift to a thread I read last night about a forum member who was burned by a supposedly reputable Pontiac engine builder in central Virginia. After reading the entire thread, I started to question what several posters mentioned: The need to find a machine shop that knows how to build a Pontiac V8, or knows Pontiacs.

I must now ask the question: what exactly differentiates a Pontiac engine builder from a shop that builds any other make of engine? I ask because a Pontiac V8 is not some exotic engine. If a competent machinist has the right parts and has access to the specifications for the engine, shouldn't be any different than rebuilding any other engine? 

I was actually in Tennessee for my job and during my down time I drove 60 miles east to Lawrenceburg and visited Butler Performance. Interesting people and a neat facility. I talked about what I wanted to do and the guy told me they would throw away everything to my engine except the block and head castings and the oil filter mount and start over. I think he didn't grasp my goal. I'm not trying to build something that will set a new NHRA record. I asked for a ball park figure to build my engine and he said $12,000 and they were a year out on work. I think what they quoted me and how they wanted to build my engine is equivalent to swatting a fly with a Buick. I'm building a street 389, not a 461 stroker race engine.

I'm not putting down Butler here. In fact I will likely purchase some of my parts from them. But what does my neighborhood machinist have to know about a Pontiac engine that he can't get out of the shop manual?

I think I am going to have my local machinist handle the machine work and I will get involved with the rest and the two of us will put it together.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I think any good machinist can do the job. Your trouble seems to come about when they try to rebuild the Pontiac like a Chevy, or Ford, or...... in that the pontiac has a different approach in producing power - build for lower RPM torque whereas a Chevy uses higher RPM horsepower.

The main stumbling blocks are the cam and the heads. You want a Pontiac grind cam having a dual pattern - either more lift, more flow, or both, on the exhaust side to get the gasses out. If your builder recommends a single pattern cam because he builds chevy engines where the intake/exhaust pattern is the same, then it won't optimize the cylinder flow and you'll have poor results. Stick with a factory grind and you will be safe.

With regards to the heads, the valve seat angles are different and you don't want a chevy guy grinding the seat/valves aka chevy specs because he thinks they will work better. A good 3-angle Pontiac valve grind is a real performance improver and should be done. Some will recommend installing hardened valve seats to better handle the unleaded fuel or your valve will sink into the head. *My opinion, and I am not a machinist or everyday engine builder*, is they are not needed unless there is minimal material at the valve seat diameter (ie several valve jobs) leaving little edge/margin for the valve to hang on to. Super high valve spring pressures and radical lift cams could probably benefit from hardened seat as well as roller cams with their fast and aggressive lift and slam close properties, and heavy nitrous use. For near stock or a little hotter build I think stainless steel valves are a must, and a good margin of valve edge hanging past the valve port opening, plus reasonable spring pressure, bronze valve guides to ensure the valves are straight & centered as opposed to trying to skimp and go with the old guides or knurl them. I suspect you won't be using it as a daily driver either.

You also want the hi-performance 60psi oil pump from Mellings. It was used in the GTO. There was a lesser pump use in the big cars, but essentially you machinist should be able to get the right one, or you can buy it yourself. I bought the blueprinted 60psi pump from Butler which is indeed more money, but it is insurance that I will not have to worry about pump pressures. Don't get me wrong, the Mellings 60psi pump is a great piece and works just fine and is used in most rebuilds, so don't be afraid to use it. Do not use the 80psi pump for street.

There are other optional improvements for your rebuild, but it all depends on what you expect out of your engine. If you are going stock, then you don't need to do a whole lot. $12,000 for rebuild has got to be for a high HP race prepped trun-key drop-in 461 CI using all new parts, and even then, that seems a lot to me using iron heads.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

When I spoke with Butler they seemed to be more into monster builds rather than stock or slightly modified Poncho engines.
Pretty much the same vibe from Sandoval.
After getting totally reamed by a "Pontiac specialist" in Central Virginia I found an old skool machine shop Southwest Engines who did all types of engines but one of the veteran machinists had a passion for Pontiac but had few of them come through the shop really wanted to help me especially after he saw how badly I got screwed.
This is the only shop I can recommend but it is on the west coast in San Bernardino.
Good luck with your search.


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Many different sources can provide competitive prices on quality engine parts. This is something that can be discussed with your machinist/engine builder, on engine builds, I've often let my engine builder source nearly all new internal parts. Have, myself on occasion, sourced forged rods, custom pistons, occasional a cam, specialty gaskets.

For local high quality Pontiac V8 savvy machine work & assembly, wouldn't hurt to get a recommedation from Rocky or Jim Rotella in Omaha. Both are long time Pontiac guys & are as good as gold. Steve Schappaugh in Lincoln (mymusclecarmemories.com) is also a Pontiac guy & great local source.


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

I am acquainted with Rocky Rotella from the car show scene in Omaha. Good idea. I will get in touch with him.

My neighbor is a retired machinist who built a machine shop in his garage. He is plenty busy with all kinds of vintage and race engine work. He works on Chevys, races one himself, but also has worked on Allis Chalmers car engines that are 100 years-old, Model T engines, and other domestic engines. It seems many of the machine shops don't want to mess with old stuff. I still have to determine if my engine can be rebuilt. I will have him examine it and we'll go from there. 

What I want to build is similar to a 389 Geeteeohguy helped a friend of his build. He had a post about it on one of my initial threads about this topic. What I want to make sure is that all the machine shop work I will need done will be true. Parts selection has been hashed over a great deal on these threads. 

I just kept hearing about the need for a "Pontiac shop" to build a Pontiac engine and I just think it can be done by any competent machine shop if the proper information (specs) is followed and good parts are used.

I am open to everyone's responses and I value them.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...I just kept hearing about the need for a "Pontiac shop" to build a Pontiac engine and I just think it can be done by any competent machine shop if the proper information (specs) is followed and good parts are used.

I am open to everyone's responses and I value them."


The reason you keep hearing it may be because so many of us Pontiac guys have been burned by non Pontiac machine shops. I had 2 Pontiac engines built by a shop where they built mostly Chevy engines, and even raced a Top Fuel dragster. 

The 1st engine lasted only a few passes. The 2nd, which was a very mild 350 bracket engine, lasted about 4 races, then locked up, just backing out of the shop. :frown3:

But, I had a 400 Stocker engine built by a shop that had built several Pontiac Super Stock engines. It won lots of races, then ran in a DD street Bird, for another 2 years. Don't remember if I sold that engine, or put it another car & sold the car. Anyhow, that engine made a lot of 12 sec passes, then did a lot of everyday street duty, without problems. It does matter who does your machine and assembly work.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Pinion head said:


> Many different sources can provide competitive prices on quality engine parts. This is something that can be discussed with your machinist/engine builder, on engine builds, I've often let my engine builder source nearly all new internal parts. Have, myself on occasion, sourced forged rods, custom pistons, occasional a cam, specialty gaskets.
> 
> For local high quality Pontiac V8 savvy machine work & assembly, wouldn't hurt to get a recommedation from Rocky or Jim Rotella in Omaha. Both are long time Pontiac guys & are as good as gold. Steve Schappaugh in Lincoln (mymusclecarmemories.com) is also a Pontiac guy & great local source.


This is great advice. Since you are acquainted with Rocky Rotella, I would recommend you get in touch with him. In his book on rebuilding Pontiac engines, he is very specific about having a conscientious machinist and showed several photos of machine work being done in a shop in Nebraska.

Best of luck with your build!


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Before I buy anything I need to make sure my engine block, crank, and heads can be rebuilt. I will seek a Pontiac oriented shop in the Omaha area to see if there are cracks or if the cylinder walls are suitable for boring. Plan on getting the ball rolling after the holidays.

If my block is shot, my plan B is to revise the current engine in my GTO (correct engine) with updated pistons, valve train, etc. 

Hopefully my numbers-matching engine is good to go. I want to help finance my project by selling the plan B engine. 

I have one other question. When I visited Butler performance, the person I was talking to told me I couldn't use the I-beam connecting rods with the Ross pistons. He said I would have to use the H-beam rods. Those are more expensive and overkill for my needs. Is this true? I thought the RPM LG5-6625I SAE 5140 rods were the replacements? These are 6.625", 2.250" that use a 0.980 wrist pin. They cost around $300 a set. I'd like to use those. If not, is it out of the question to recondition my OEM Arma Steel rods and use ARP rod bolts?

Remember, I am trying to build a snotty stock looking street engine, not a drag strip stormer. I want to pattern my build similar to a '65 GTO 389 that geeteeohguy posted about that he helped a friend build a few years ago.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

I would contact Ross Pistons at 1-800.392.7677 and talk with their tech guys about this (Ross Racing Pistons)

Not to say anything negative about BP but considering the nature of your build, I would check directly with Ross to get the straight scoop on this. I definitely would not use the fragile old rods as I value my rare engine block as you do.

Also, another member might have a different piston/I-beam rod combo that would work for you and chime in with it. Best of luck!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

The more info you provide on the Butler recommendations, the more it sounds like they were talking about an all out street/strip race engine.

The Ross pistons are geared more for racing. They are light weight, but this is somewhat due in part to the very short piston skirt. In my person opinion, you don't really want a piston with a short skirt for the street as it can have a tendency to rock and many of the aftermarket pistons use the narrower piston rings. Read this article on the pistons and look at the differences: Pontiac V-8: Pistons and Rings Performance Guide

I purchased the KB Iconn forged pistons for my 455 build because they had a better skirt, used the factory ring size, and most importantly, had the factory piston pin offset that Pontiac incorporated due to the longer stroke of the 455 ( most aftermarket 455 pistons have the piston pin centered). I am using a forged I-beam rod with these pistons.

Whatever piston you choose to use is basically up to you and the machine shop you use. Pistons all have their pro's and con's and specific uses and range from affordable pricing to way outta my league pricing.

I would first get your block checked out before getting too confused on the parts. Once you know what you have (or don't) then you can move forward from there. :thumbsup:


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Yeah, that is a good idea to talk to Ross directly. I am also wondering if the tech at Butler meant the I-beam rods would not work with a stroker crank kit? 

It seems many Pontiac engines are being rebuilt using the rods I mentioned in my earlier post. I should try and find out today if they will work on my build because Butler has them on sale today with shipping for about $285.


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Well I'm finally taking the first step building my numbers matching engine to my '65 GTO convertible. Since I live in the Omaha area a poster recommended I check into Pontiac engine building book author Rocky Rotella and I discovered a machine shop in Omaha that can properly build a Pontiac V8. Next week I am going to take my engine to Chuck Willard of Willard Auto Machine to have my block cleaned and magnafluxed to make sure it can even be rebuilt. Hopefully the cylinders won't have to be bored too far. 

I am also going to have the original Arma Steel crank and the rods examined. I have been told to chuck the original rods and use the new steel replacements. I am leaning towards that. I will have the heads checked for cracks as well.

Once this process is complete, I will know if the engine can be saved and I will see what it will cost. 

This ought to be an interesting project. If all goes as planned, I will have a decent WT-code 1965 GTO engine for sale to help finance the rebuild of the other engine. It's the correct engine from another '65 GTO currently in my car. It would be a great engine for somebody trying to restore a '65 GTO. It runs decent and the block was never bored. The guy who built it started with a 40,000 mile engine. He built it loose and he used Badger pistons. This engine is a great candidate for a build that I am going to have done to my numbers-matching engine. If my original engine is a goner, then I will revamp this engine to run on 87-91 octane.

Any guess what a '65 GTO 389 engine is worth? It will be fairly complete. It may also include a distributor, intake manifold, oil pan, timing cover, water pump, push rod cover, valve covers, and oil pan. It depends how much I will need from this engine to be used on my rebuilt engine. At a minimum, I will have a long block for sale. 

Stay tuned.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...I have been told to chuck the original rods and use the new steel replacements. I am leaning towards that..."


I am not a machinist nor a pro engine builder. I'm just passing on info I've read online. So, you can take it or leave it. 

Paul Carter, who is a well respected Pontiac engine builder, has posted that he has found that most of those RPM 5140 replacement rods need resizing on the big end. But, he also said that the big end of the RPM H-beams are usually close enuff to use, right out of the box. There is a $100 price difference. And, the H-beam rods are stronger and lighter than the 5140 I-beams. Therefore, the H-beams may be about the same price, depending on machine shop costs to resize the 5140 rods. So, you can get stronger, lighter rods for about the same total cost, with the RPM H-beams.

Mr.Carter also says that most all rods need some work on the small end, since pin size can vary slightly, between brands. So, that cost should be about the same for any set of rods. 

The RPM H-beams are $400 shipped direct from RPM. They come either for floating pins or press-in pins. 

SAE 4340 STEEL H-BEAM

Some prefer Eagle brand H-beams. They're about $75 or so, per set, higher than the RPM H-beams. 

https://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/prod/EGL-CRS6625PP3D


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Today I dropped my 389 off for cleaning and magnafluxing. Had an interesting conversation with the engine man. We're talking about what I am looking to do with this engine and I mention to have a good driver that runs on low octane gas. I mentioned some ideas, many obtained from this site and I was surprised.

Camshaft: He said he hasn't installed a non roller cam in any engine he's built in years with the exception of a 1950s Cadillac engine. The low zinc oil isn't friendly with flat tappet cams and he says they will wear out fast. My issue is the Comp Cams roller cam kit I checked out (XR264HR or 51-413-9) was over $1,000 and I wonder if it is still too radical for my application. 

Rods: Yeah the old cast rods even with ARP rod bolts are out. For insurance he says the Eagle rods are good insurance. I agree. Many of you on this forum have shunned the old cast rods as well.

Pistons: I was told the Ross dished pistons are noisy. He mentioned some other brands and I can't remember them right now. If anybody has some alternatives, I'd like to hear about them. 

Heads: I have old #77 heads for my '65 GTO 389. He likes the Ferrea stainless steel valves. I checked Butler and for a little over $300 I can get all new valves. I think that's what I'll get. He mentioned hardened seats as well, but I was told those are not necessary with stainless steel valves. I'll have to discuss that further if my engine passes the mag test. 

He also stressed using H.O. cast exhaust manifolds if not headers. He says the log type exhaust manifolds really handicap the Pontiac V8. I might alter the originality of my engine by springing for those. I will have to modify my exhaust system for those, and I wasn't counting on messing with that.

I have time. My car has an engine already. This is the numbers-matching engine, but I am a little leery about things getting carried away. I just want a low compression rebuild with a cam upgrade. I have a feeling this is could cost way more than I anticipated. I told him I'm not trying to build a racing engine. I am going to use the stock induction and ignition system that is correct for the car. From what he told me, it sounds like I might have to have more done for this engine to make all of this function well with the gas and oil we have to use for these old cars.

I should know more this time next week.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Ask a hundred machine shops what is best and you will get 100 different answers.

Roller cams can eliminate potential cam/lifter wear issues which seemingly stem from the low zinc oils, but that is not the whole story. A number of reasons may contribute to this phenomenon to include Chinese lifters, soft cams, higher spring rates, and poor break-in procedures. Roller cams/lifters are nice, BUT a little pricey in my book. 

Going with a solid lifter flat tappet cam in my 455 build. I am not using a windage tray which will allow for the oil to be better thrown about for lubrication of the cam (and if I lose 10 HP I think I can live with it). Will use a quality cam break-in lube with ZDDP (zinc) and my spring pressures are not so high as to need to pull the inside spring (of the double spring set-up) for initial break-in. I will also use an oil that has ZDDP in it. I could have opted for the EDM lifters with the hole in the bottom of the lifters or even something like the Rhodes lifters with the side groove to allow extra oil drip on the cam lobe, but did not feel I needed it. I am not restricting the oil holes in the lifter gallery either, but instead, using a lifter that has its oil hole at the pushrod restricted to accomplish the same thing and keep all the oil at the lifter gallery.
BUT, that's my opinion on it. Flat Tappet Cam Tech - Righting the Wrongs

Rods, definitely get the replacements and get rid of the cast rods. For a street build, I-beam, H-beam, or whatever will work. Lightest is best and have them checked for size even if they are new.

Pistons. Personally, I want a piston with a stock type skirt. Many of the aftermarket forged pistons remove piston weight through shortening up of the skirt. Take a look at whatever piston you select and compare. Short skirts are fine for racing, but not so much in a street engine where the longer skirt provides a more stable piston and minimizes piston rocking. I went with the Keith Black Iconn forged pistons on my 455 build because it has a fairly stock piston skirt, stock ring pack, and has the factory pin offset that the 455 engines had. The Hypereutectic type pistons are a good choice for a street engine, but some will say they are not. Used them in my brother's 360 build and they are still going strong and he hammers on his engine. They are typically cheaper than the forged and like factory pistons.

You want to shoot for a compression ratio of 9.0 to 9.5 max so you can use pump gas. You do this by selecting a piston that will match your head cc's. So get one of the combustion chambers cc'd in order to select your piston's top cc volume - and take into account your deck height which is typically around .0200" and your head gasket compressed thickness. The distance between the top of the piston and flat surface on the head that is above the piston is called the "Quench" area. You want to have this distance near the .040" measurement. Most head gaskets compress near .040", so you can either get a piston that moves the pin hole lower (to raise the piston higher in the bore) or a thinner head gasket like the Cometic brand offers. They are not inexpensive - I think I paid $100 each. Got the .027" gaskets for my 455. The other option you will read about is to *zero deck* the block. Not a fan of this as it removes material off the top of your block and changes the geometry of the intake surfaces of the head-to-manifold so these will need to be milled accordingly and that will cost more money.

Hardened seats? Too many opinions as to their need or not. I don't see the need so did not do this on my heads. Have the Ferrea SS valves and my spring pressures are not excessive - but that is my opinion.

Cam. Depends on what you expect out of the engine. Using the stock intake, I assume the 4-hole square bore style AFB carb. Original carb as I recall was 550CFM. If using the original carb, this has to be taken into consideration as you don't want a big cam if the intake side of things isn't going to flow to the maximum of the cam's potential. Everything has to be matched.

Better flowing exhaust manifolds are a plus, but the RA manifolds will have a larger outlet than your factory manifolds. You may have to get some new head pipes to fit these. Stay away from headers as often times there are fitment problems.

Pontiac engines are not inexpensive to build like a Chevy or Ford, so be prepared for it. :thumbsup:


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

As always PontiacJim has a wealth of smarts to add to the discussion. Guys like Jim, Bear, Geeteeohguy, and many others on this forum make being a Pontiac man a blessing.

I left the machine shop a little jaded. It goes along with the back story to my engine goal for my prized possession. Again, I think I consulted with a shop that thinks in a high rpm, max output, near or all-out race mindset. This guy has my engine for at least a cleaning and mag-flux check. 

I was floored when he said he literally installs roller cams in every engine he builds. My back story to all this is a trip to none other than Butler Performance. Back in November I was working in Tennessee and during my off time I drove to Butler to talk to them about my '65 GTO 389 build. I spent more time driving there than I spent talking about what I want to do. Butler wanted to chuck everything and just use my block, heads, and oil filter boss. For $12,000 they could build me a great 389 for my GTO.

Now I'm told back home in Omaha, roller cam, steel rods, etc. I am going to use the cast iron 1965 GTO intake manifold and 500 cfm Carter (#3895S) carburetor. I told him I am using the original points distributor because my OEM tachometer will not work if I use electronic ignition. I am willing to use the H.O. exhaust manifolds, but again, I am trying to restore my original engine and have it operate on unleaded gas with a cam that will enhance its torque and power to at least match the output of this engine in 1965 when it ran on 98 now extinct octane.

I will see what this machinist finds. Hopefully it is fixable and he understands I'm not trying to build a NHRA record holding engine. How many of you on this forum use a roller cam in your GTO engine? I don't think I need most of what others have been tryin to sell me. I even said to the machine shop owner that most of the time I will drive my GTO like its a Tempest with a 326. 

I accept that a Pontiac V8 is more costly than a Chevrolet or Ford, but it is not an exotic engine. And if flat tappet cams are so bad, why does the popular GM 350 H.O. crate engine not use a roller cam? Do these engines experience flat tappet cam failure? I haven't heard that they do. I hope this machinist doesn't pretend he is Butler performance and wants me to have him build me an overdone/overkill ridiculously expensive engine that will sit for more than half of the year cold. 

This is going to be quite an interesting project. I am glad you guys are available to consult with on this forum. I respect and value your experience and insight. I guess I need to find out first whether what I am working with isn't cracked.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"... I went with the Keith Black Iconn forged pistons on my 455 build because it has a fairly stock piston skirt, stock ring pack, and has the factory pin offset that the 455 engines had..."


If by "stock ring pack" you mean stock width, I think stock 455 pistons had a 5/64 top ring. Icons have a 1/16 top ring.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-417np30/overview/make/pontiac

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-l2359nf30/overview/make/pontiac

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-ic888-030/overview/make/pontiac


"...so you can either get a piston that moves the pin hole lower (to raise the piston higher in the bore)...shoot for a compression ratio of 9.0 to 9.5 max so you can use pump gas. You do this by selecting a piston that will match your head cc's..."


To get all this correct for your engine will obviously require a custom piston. But a forged 389 piston will have to be custom anyhow. Don't think anybody still makes forged 389 shelf pistons. Ross is among the highest priced custom. Auto-Tec/Race Tec is one of the cheapest. From what I've read, prices can vary from around $500 to around $800, or even more. 

One option is to use later model 400 heads. Then you can bore your block .060 over & use std bore flat top 400 pistons. If you don't wanna go .060 over, a custom is the only way. 

For frequent driving, if I wanted to keep a 389 block, I'd go with 6x-4 heads, custom flat tops, & a small Voodoo cam. 

But, if you wanna also keep the 389 heads, you'll need dish pistons, to keep the CR down to around 9:1. Many say you can go with 9.5:1. I say: Why push it ? Why take a chance on detonation & engine damage, just for a very minor power gain ? Go with 9:1 or less & be safer. I'd have the heads changed over to screw-in studs, along with SS valves. Obviously, opinions differ on the need for hardened seats.

Personally, I'd build a low compression 400, with 6x-4, 5c-4, or the late '73-'74 #46 heads, with screw-in studs. And I'd use RPM H-beam rods & Auto-Tec flat top pistons with the pin hole moved for near zero deck height. Lots of advantages to using the later model parts. 


"... I am trying to restore my original engine and have it operate on unleaded gas with a cam that will enhance its torque and power to at least match the output of this engine in 1965 when it ran on 98 now extinct octane..."

But, if you want original, so be it. 

I'm not a Pontiac engine expert & have never rebuilt a 389 engine. These are just some things to consider.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

*bigD*, "If by "stock ring pack" you mean stock width, I think stock 455 pistons had a 5/64 top ring. Icons have a 1/16 top ring."

*PJ*, by no fault of yours, I have found that both Summit & Jegs don't always list exactly the specs for each individual part, but rather at times use a "generic" listing as to what the part is - which can be inaccurate in its description. Going directly to the manufacturer/Icon Catalog on line, https://www.uempistons.com/catalogs/icon_catalog.pdf , page 74, you will find the accurate specs for this piston. This _IS_ what I purchased with the matching ring pack as listed and they are indeed as spec'd. "Part # IC9960 - PONTIAC FHR, 455–V8 FLAT TOP-4V. NOTES: Offset Pin. Will work with 14° & 20° heads. RING PACK: 1-5/64” / 1-1/16” / 1-3/16”. RINGSET PART NO: 4151FM." :yesnod:

*extinctmake*: "I am trying to restore my original engine and have it operate on unleaded gas with a cam that will enhance its torque and power to at least match the output of this engine in 1965 when it ran on 98 now extinct octane. I am going to use the cast iron 1965 GTO intake manifold and 500 cfm Carter (#3895S) carburetor. I told him I am using the original points distributor because my OEM tachometer will not work if I use electronic ignition. I am willing to use the H.O. exhaust manifolds, but again, I am trying to restore my original engine. I even said to the machine shop owner that most of the time I will drive my GTO like its a Tempest with a 326. "

I think the key point for this rebuild is to build a fairly stock HP engine using as many of the original parts as possible with some internal upgrades that will make sense, run on todays pump gas, and not break the bank. :thumbsup:


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

extinctmake said:


> Today I dropped my 389 off for cleaning and magnafluxing. Had an interesting conversation with the engine man. We're talking about what I am looking to do with this engine and I mention to have a good driver that runs on low octane gas. I mentioned some ideas, many obtained from this site and I was surprised.
> 
> Camshaft: He said he hasn't installed a non roller cam in any engine he's built in years with the exception of a 1950s Cadillac engine. The low zinc oil isn't friendly with flat tappet cams and he says they will wear out fast. My issue is the Comp Cams roller cam kit I checked out (XR264HR or 51-413-9) was over $1,000 and I wonder if it is still too radical for my application.
> .


He has points to make about roller cams...but for street most choose a hydraulic roller cam and kit. Problems, most all the cam companies use Chevy roller lifters with the Pontiac HR cams and the lifter oil band does not match up. (Since Pontiac sales do not justify the expense of Pontiac only lifters.) ON PY Forum, member GTOFREEK a machinist has posted a mod he developed to groove to lifter to provide oil to the proper places. And other guys are using Pontiac specific solid roller cam lifters on their HR cams to beat this problem. Suddenly flat tappets don't sound so bad if you're careful with set-up.

Check out his link: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails - Chevelle Tech

Hope all this helps.


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Yeah the roller route seems to be overkill for what I'm trying to achieve. And the finding that Chevrolet lifters are used with a Pontiac roller cam is discouraging especially when the Comp Cams roller cam kit I checked for a price reference was over $1,000. I'm also not thrilled that the Eagle and RPM connecting rods are made in China. But from what I'm told these are still better than using the stock cast rods with ARP rod bolts. Okay, I accept that even though this engine will likely have a 5,200 rpm red line and will likely see 5,000 rpm a handful of times.

I hope this shop I'm working with isn't trying to cut a fat hog selling me a bunch of parts I really don't need. I realize many people here build their engines to squeeze every last ounce of power and torque from them and they push them to the limits and race them. I don't and won't with my car. This one is restored and it sits cold for over half the year. I'd like to drive it more frequently and perhaps I will if I can put together an engine that functions better in today's driving environment than the engine I have in it now all the while looking correct in the process. I'd like to hop it up a little, mainly with a cam upgrade, but I can't see why it has to be a roller cam. I don't use a high rise intake manifold, no big carburetor, no headers, no MSD ignition, so I view a roller cam as a waste for my application. I am keeping the #77 cylinder heads, stock intake manifold, OEM Carter AFB, stock Delco distributor (recurved), stock exhaust (maybe add HO exhaust manifolds) and the 3.23:1 axle. I even have the correct hose clamps and date-coded ignition cables. 

Is it out of the realm of possibility to build this engine (long block) for $4,000 to $5,000?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

No, it's not. My take on this, distilling it all: you want an engine to use the same way I use mine. To drive and enjoy the car. To take road trips. To not break down or ping. I have personal experience with Ross Pistons. The only thing not to like is the price. ALL forged pistons can be noisy when cold. I never hear them....guess I'm deaf. I LIKE standard skirt pistons and Old school ringpacks because they LAST. The 389 in my '65 GTO (built in 1981 with a flat tappet cam for under 2k at that time) is STILL in the car running great. The 400 in my '67 GTO I built in 1988 for less than $1800 is still in the car running great, 90,000 miles later. Another flat tappet cam. I would use better rods today, doing it over, have them CHECKED, as pointed out, as most are out of spec out of the box, I would use forged dished Ross pistons, HO manifolds, and an 068 flat tappet cam, sourced new old stock or good used and checked, with QUALITY lifters. The problem today isn't the oil, really, it's crappy quality parts. Camshafts not hardened properly. Lifters not machined properly. IF you can find some older stuff, USA stuff, you will be fine. I wouldn't install a roller set-up in my cars if you gave me one. I don't race, I just drive the wheels off of them year after year, decade after decade. I have seen FAR too many expensive roller set-ups lose a needle bearing and take out an engine, and short skirt-low drag pistons fail in the first 5000 miles. A buddy of mine has a hurt 421 he spent about 12k building with all the latest and greatest stuff, and it needs to be done over again withabout 1200 miles on it. NO thanks. As a final word, I'll throw in that all my old cars use the stock points distributors and all are reliable, easy to use, and superior tho electronic for reliability and originality. To me, it's a pleasure to tune the car and replace the points every 15,000 miles. That's once every 5 years or so on the '67, and once every 15 years on the '65! Others will disagree,, but others probably don't have the wheel time or miles on these cars I do.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Forgot to say, the oil IS part of the equation for parts failure, but in my opinion, is a secondary reason after the main one, which is poorly hardened and machined parts. Hell, look at the new rubber products....they can't make rubber or tires anymore, either. Bad stuff indeed...........


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

^^^^^
Your price concerns are not out of line. If you noticed our friend Jim when talking about the difference in machine shops, he emphasized the cylinder head/valve differences (30* vs 45* seats. and things like that. Also he emphasized dual pattern cams vs single pattern cams for Ponchos. A dual pattern with a longer exhaust duration to crutch the lousy exhaust port flow. Finding someone to do the heads right could be one thing while a competent machinist who can do engine blocks well is another. Many folks here will imply that any dolt can machine a Chevy engine while a Pontiac needs a highly skilled machinist. Interestingly, on the Chevy forums, they gripe about dolts running machine shops who louse up their Chevy engines. Obviously whatever your engine you need a machinist who has the skills BUT also the skill and desire to listen to the customer. As for cams, talk with reputable cams companies about what you need, not the machinist---he has his own preferences and experiences. I like Lunati VOODOO myself since the late Harold Brookshire designed the lobes. BUT you may want to talk with Crane Cams as they not only have their own line but grind duplicates of Pontiac factory cams. And Crane has a lot of cams with 112* or greater LSA's like GM used and many Pontiac builders recommend for LSA's. http://www.cranecams.com/276-279.pdf

Best of luck....keep us posted.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

geeteeohguy said:


> No, it's not. As a final word, I'll throw in that all my old cars use the stock points distributors and all are reliable, easy to use, and superior tho electronic for reliability and originality. To me, it's a pleasure to tune the car and replace the points every 15,000 miles. That's once every 5 years or so on the '67, and once every 15 years on the '65! Others will disagree,, but others probably don't have the wheel time or miles on these cars I do.


Like you, my brother prefers the points ignitions in his Chevelles. The thing that rags his butt is that he cannot find points that last more than a few months. China s***. So, can you recommend where he can find good points and condensors? (Echlin caps and rotors seem to work OK for him.) He runs GM solid cams in his SBC's and maybe the 6K revs shorten point life, that I don't know.

Thanks!!!

(Sorry to OP for getting off topic:frown3


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"... by no fault of yours, I have found that both Summit & Jegs don't always list exactly the specs for each individual part, but rather at times use a "generic" listing as to what the part is - which can be inaccurate in its description..."


OK, I'll just have to take your word for the width of the top ring, since I've never seen a set, close up. All the listings I've found for the Icons say the top ring is 1/16. 

Icon IC888-030 Forged Flat Top Pistons 4.180 Bore *Pontiac 455*

https://www.amazon.com/Icon-IC888-030-Flat-Forged-Piston/dp/B003TTV8GO

https://autoplicity.com/897184-icon-pistons-piston-and-ring-set-ic8880304151bd8035

These say they have centered pins, also.

https://www.enginekits.com/ic888-030-icon-forged-piston-pont-455-rod-6-630-flat-top-5-5cc-2v.html

https://www.carid.com/icon-pistons/pistons-mpn-ic888-030.html

Page 56 of the Icon Cat also shows 1/16 rings & a centered pin. In fact, every single Pontiac piston they list shows to have centered pins with 1/16 rings. Again, I have no idea what the correct info is. Just going by what I've read.

https://www.uempistons.com/catalogs/icon_catalog.pdf

OK, I see the problem. We are talking about 2 completely different pistons. I'm talking about the premium IC888 pistons. You're talkin about the FHR pistons which have 8 valve reliefs, for use with either early or late heads, similar to the "8-eyebrow" reliefs in the dreaded SP cast 400 pistons. Those cast pistons are not recommended by any Pontiac engine builders. Don't know about the Icon version. 

"Part # IC9960 - PONTIAC FHR, 455–V8 FLAT TOP-4V. NOTES: Offset Pin. Will work with 14° & 20° heads..."

This description says those reliefs are worth 10.8cc. That's like a very small dish size. 

http://www.cnc-motorsports.com/icon-ic9960-030-fhr-forged-flat-top-pistons-4-181-bore-49743.html

A set of these will work in a 389 block, with 389 heads. 

http://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...e-389-058-over-bore.html?ref=category:1234832

This description is not accurate, but the price is good.

https://www.rpmmachine.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=6276

This site offers a "price match beater" deal. But, if you don't wanna bore your 389 that much, your back to customs. 

http://www.dragracecarparts.co/icon-performance-pistons-fhr-series-pistons-ic9946-std-free-shipping/


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

1968gto421 said:


> Like you, my brother prefers the points ignitions in his Chevelles. The thing that rags his butt is that he cannot find points that last more than a few months. China s***. So, can you recommend where he can find good points and condensors? (Echlin caps and rotors seem to work OK for him.) He runs GM solid cams in his SBC's and maybe the 6K revs shorten point life, that I don't know.
> 
> Thanks!!!
> 
> (Sorry to OP for getting off topic:frown3


I have a stockpile of 40 year old AC Delco 106 (standard) and 112 (Hi RPM) points from swap meets, past purchases, and the internet. That's what I run. The new China stuff is, indeed, crap. The more China stuff we buy, the more they'll make. We need to boycott that crap. The 106's will work well past 6,000 rpm, plenty for a Poncho. The 112 has a stiffer spring, so the rubbing block wears sooner. They will work fine up past 8,000 rpm. Mainly used on small block Chevy's.....we used to call them 'Z-28 points', as they were used on the early 302's. BTW, the single profile dinosaur Sig Erson bumpstick in my '65 has a lobe center of 108...very choppy at idle. Works very well with the 4 speed and mid-3 series gears and headers. But needs 100 octane fuel............


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

"OK, I'll just have to take your word for the width of the top ring, since I've never seen a set, close up. All the listings I've found for the Icons say the top ring is 1/16."

Summit does not seem to list them, don't know why. I purchased them through Summit and they came directly from United, $554.97. Then ordered the matching ring pack, but can't find that receipt although I do have it. Here is what they look like: http://www.gtoforum.com/f50/icon-fhr-455ci-pistons-60258/


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

You could'a saved a few bucks by Googling the best price, then getting Summit to beat it. But, too late now.

Icon IC9960-030 FHR Forged Flat Top Pistons 4.181 Bore

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...yjQTe5s8SadJ-sNEXrPShzqnQySr8pQWOuxoCG0zw_wcB


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Yeah, I don't mind using points. I don't drive my cars often enough to have to replace them every year. I have a 1970 Skylark with the 350 that has points too and it works fine. I have to use points on my GTO because my factory tachometer won't work with electronic ignition.

Back to topic. You guys are spot on. I didn't think flat tappet cams were out of circulation. And I like what 1968gto421 says, "look for a machinist who listens to the customer." I am on the fence still whether I am being listened to. He will clean and mag everything and we'll go from there. If I don't like what I'm told when it comes to suggestions, I can just pay him for services rendered and take my pig iron someplace else. I hope that doesn't happen.

Maybe I will start looking for some parts. I'm sure most shops don't like customers buying and bringing in their own parts, but this rebuild is not for a mainstream engine. There's some specific things I want for this engine like a Melling oil pump and the best rear main seal I can get (BOP one piece from Butler?). 

I am glad to hear my perceived cost is realistic. Geeteeohguy has me pegged: I just want a reliable engine to drive and enjoy that won't break down and ping. It should be plenty snotty with the right cam and the fact that it is a big engine in a small car, it will perform well by default.

Maybe I should look for a NOS 068 cam and lifters.....


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...Maybe I should look for a NOS 068 cam and lifters..."


That's not really a bad cam for a mild 389. It has low lift & a long ramp, which is easy on the valve train. They were used in several Pontiac engines, including both the low & high compression 455HO. There are several 068 clones. The Melling SPC-7 is one of 'em.

Engine Camshaft-Stock MELLING SPC-7 fits 63-66 Pontiac Catalina 6.9L-V8

The Summit 2801 is similar, but with more lift. 

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-2801

For lifters, the Crower Cam Saver lifters are said to splash extra oil on the cam lobes--couldn't hurt. 

http://www.jegs.com/i/Crower/258/66...ftOHYVGtk5vhjZJyhh0OiizQAdyIGeFo_iRoC05zw_wcB

Lots of Pontiac guys on the PY site recommend Hylift Johnson "R" lifters. Paul Knippen sells 'em.

https://www.facebook.com/PaulKnippensMuscleMotors/


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