# Steering Box Modification Help



## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

When I got my 67, it had a spare steering pump in the trunk. I assumed it was a leaking unit which my uncle replaced, so I ditched it. 

My car turns like a choo choo train... it's super annoying. Mild turns and parking always require two K-turns. My old 67 GTO and 66 Lemans did not have this problem.

A few months back, I discovered that my uncle had allegedly replaced the steering box with a different one, which reduced the steering wheel turn to lock. Ive since heard scattered info about that mod, here... and that it also reduces throw (which makes sense to me).


Does it reduce throw?
How can I determine which box I have?
If it was done and I reverse it, do I need to change the pump, too?


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## 67lemans (Oct 30, 2009)

I did this on my TA (new steering gear that is). It was leaking, so I looked at rebuild kits and the complexity of that kind of scared me off, and when I went to look for replacement units there was a wide range of ratios. I want to say from like 2.5 turns to 4.0 turns lock to lock. I'm guessing I went with something pretty low (why not?). I did not replace the PS Pump. The set up works fine. Of course its a completely different car, but a quarter turn of the TA wheel feels like it equals about 2 turns of the lemans wheel. But I still totally dig the lemans!!


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Army, Had these guys rebuild my steering box. They turned it around in a week and made it close ratio in a stock box. Works great. Super knowledgeable. Give them a call.

www.powersteering.com


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Thanks for the input, guys. So do the tight ratio boxes reduce steering throw?


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Yes they are great, it reduces it from stock 2.5 turns of the steering wheel from stop to stop,…by some amount. And it steers much better,…it is not one to one like rack and pinion, but takes so much of the slop out it drives completely different. Much better handling and turning.

if you do it yourself just makes sure you get that modification right because the wrong rebuilt steering box, like say from a firebird, will not let the car turn enough and it will be a mess.

That is why I had them rebuild my original box and put in close ratio.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

Not all close ratio boxes are equal. You probably have a Firebird/Camaro box. They have internal stops which in an A body, increases the turning radius but aren't really close ratio. 

You need to obtain a 92-97 Jeep Grand Cherokee steering gear which are 12.7 and have a high steering effort. Requires metric adaptors for the hoses.
OR
Buy any pre 1979 A body steering gear and have it converted to 12.7 and a bigger torsion bar for road feel. No adaptors required.
OR
Buy a new Borgeson box. Requires Metric adaptors.

The problem with buying an over the counter close ratio box is that you never know what you're getting until its on the car. Could be an A body or F

Read the Jim Shea Steering Papers for a in depth understanding of Saginaw steering gears, pumps and columns.



Jim Shea’s Steering Papers



Unfortunately there isn't any way to determine what ratio is inside the box or whether the box is for an F body. The housings are the same from 64-79 and from 1979 - 2012, (Metric hose fittings). The external casting number gives no clue. The best bet is to look at the date on the aluminum cover but this not always a sure thing if the box had been rebuilt. 
And there are two different sized housings; For A/F body and the B body. Both will bolt right in but the larger diameter B body cannot be converted to 12.7. 

70 and later steering pumps usually operate at a higher pressure than pre-70. The pumps are very easy to rebuild and the pressure is easily changed. Its all in the Jim Shea Papers.


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## CoveKid19 (Nov 18, 2021)

armyadarkness said:


> A few months back, I discovered that my uncle had allegedly replaced the steering box with a different one, which reduced the steering wheel turn to lock. Ive since heard scattered info about that mod, here... and that it also reduces throw (which makes sense to me).
> 
> 
> Does it reduce throw?
> ...


Army, here are a few PDF's that give some Saginaw box specs. Most A-bodies had boxes with a 17.5:1 ratio and 43+ degrees of throw. Desireable boxes for our use are from the 80's-90's B-body cars which had a 12:1 ratio and retained the 40+ degrees of throw. F-body cars, i.e. Camaro and Firechickens, had the 12:1 ratio but typically less than 35 degrees of throw.

If you don't know the ratio, and there's no code on the end cap, you can get a good idea by using a printed protractor. Cut it out so it wraps around the shaft, between the box and Pitman arm, and note the degrees arm travel from lock to lock.

As for the pump, the lower ratio (fast) boxes require a higher pressure so you would have to match the pressure as required. Not as difficult as a pump change, but just a quick simple flow control valve swap or adjustment.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

O52 said:


> Not all close ratio boxes are equal. You probably have a Firebird/Camaro box. They have internal stops which in an A body, increases the turning radius but aren't really close ratio.
> 
> You need to obtain a 92-97 Jeep Grand Cherokee steering gear which are 12.7 and have a high steering effort. Requires metric adaptors for the hoses.
> OR
> ...


Thanks Ed. I personally never minded manual steering or brakes... but this mess is killing me. If I ever need to escape fast, Im screwed.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

CoveKid19 said:


> Army, here are a few PDF's that give some Saginaw box specs. Most A-bodies had boxes with a 17.5:1 ratio and 43+ degrees of throw. Desireable boxes for our use are from the 80's-90's B-body cars which had a 12:1 ratio and retained the 40+ degrees of throw. F-body cars, i.e. Camaro and Firechickens, had the 12:1 ratio but typically less than 35 degrees of throw.
> 
> If you don't know the ratio, and there's no code on the end cap, you can get a good idea by using a printed protractor. Cut it out so it wraps around the shaft, between the box and Pitman arm, and note the degrees arm travel from lock to lock.
> 
> As for the pump, the lower ratio (fast) boxes require a higher pressure so you would have to match the pressure as required. Not as difficult as a pump change, but just a quick simple flow control valve swap or adjustment.


That sounds like the mod I got stuck with... light effort, no throw...


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

O52 is spot on. My 64 has said steering box( installed by yours truly) and it rocks.
The old box would turn 78 degrees and parking with that box was like unscrewing the hatch on a submarine for gods sake.
This new box is quick, and parallel parking is a snap and does not require 2 passes like the old submarine box did.
THe Grand cherokee box moves a full 87 degrees, instead of 78 degrees too.
Doesnt sound sound like much , but when parking it makes all the difference in the world.
The firebirb box only swings about69 degrees or close to that , because they use a pitman a arm with a longer throw. Internal stops are different from an A body because that is how they are setup.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

If you go junk yarding you can usually be selective as there are plenty of GCs around. At least around here.
No front end damage
No leakers (pump reservoir is over the box so there could be oil residue on the box)
Easier to remove with 2WD than 4WD
Easier to remove with engine out
Leave the pitman arm on and have a machine shop remove it. Not worth fighting it to remove in the yard.
GRAND CHEROKEE ONLY, Cherokees use a different box
Try to get a later 97 or 98. Less miles. Think I said earlier that they were installed up to 97. I double checked, its actually 98.
They are all the same from late 92 to 98 however. Keep in mind however these boxes are 25 - 30 years old and obviously have a little wear. But still miles ahead of what you have now.



http://jimshea.corvettefaq.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/AF-CarFastRatioGearBeingRevised15AP2012.pdf


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

I have been wondering what to use for a box as well. My steering is way to easy and would like something between way to easy and manual If anyone has bought a rebuilt g cherokee box and hoses or adapters I am all ears.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Here are the boxes - years and the letter codes found on the factory decal on the box

YEAR ALPHA CODE ORIGINAL APPLICATION GEAR RATIO EFFORT T-BAR SIZE TRAVEL
1992.5 -1993 AL or BT Jeep Grand Cherokee 12.7:1 20-26 0.195 Dia 43deg 45min
1994 AL, BT, or PD Jeep Grand Cherokee 12.7:1 20-26 0.195 Dia 43deg 45min
1995 JH Jeep Grand Cherokee 12.7:1 20-26 0.195 Dia 43deg 45min
1996 KD Jeep Grand Cherokee 12.7:1 20-26 0.195 Dia 43deg 45min
1997-98 WK or BT Jeep Grand Cherokee 12.7:1 20-26 0.195 Dia 43deg 45min

Bolts right up. Uses the Pontiac power steering arm. Uses the Lars 202 rag joint as I recall - 202 was for ¾" 32 spline.

It has a metric hose fitting on the high pressure side. You can use an adapter to convert, but my plan is to have a hydraulic hose made up by a local hydraulic hose company - just find out where heavy equipment/farmers/manufacturing companies get their hydraulic hoses fabricated.

On another site this was done, "bought a 1981 Camaro high pressure hose to go into the box, cut the end off that attaches to the pump and used a flare tool to put a 1/2" sae fitting on it."

Here is a Pull-A-Part $40.00 box on my 1968 Lemans. It is a "WK" unit printed on the sticker. Must be a 2 wheel drive Jeep Grand Cherokee, not a 4 wheel drive. Car is not finished or on the road so I cannot comment on how well it works, but quick ratio has to be better.

I assume this will fit the 1967 and earlier frames?


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Anybody have a grand cherokee steering box in their current running car? sure would like your thoughts. Hey Army...while your two timing us with SCTMMC I hijacked your thread lol


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

I had one in my El Camino. Worked great. I cleaned it, and flushed fluid through it. It bolted up just like the original. The steering was tight with a good amount of road feel.

You can see the thread adapters in the photos below


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

O52 said:


> I had one in my El Camino. Worked great. I cleaned it, and flushed fluid through it. It bolted up just like the original. The steering was tight with a good amount of road feel.
> 
> You can see the thread adapters in the photos below
> 
> ...


Good amount of road feel....hats good to know. Right now mine is so easy its like its floating😱


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

I got these :









Borgeson Adapters GM O-Ring To Inverted Flare Set


Set of Borgeson GM O-Ring to Inverted Flare Adapters.




www.cjponyparts.com





Of course I bought them elsewhere and not at a FORD store...LOL

I inserted them into the box . The factory pressure line ( From the GTO) fit as the threads are so close between the older sae and the newer metric it worked well. NoLeak. I used the o ring return line from the jeep.I just cut off the crimp shells and used new return hose with a clamp. It looks almost factory.No adapters to give it away.


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

RMTZ67 said:


> Anybody have a grand cherokee steering box in their current running car? sure would like your thoughts. Hey Army...while your two timing us with SCTMMC I hijacked your thread lol


My works amazingly well. That was a mod I could not be happier with.


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

I also like P Jims suggestion on the camaro hose and cutting the end and flaring


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I can make my own hydraulic hoses, so I just need the box and to be sure that I'm using the correct pump. Im still a bit unclear about positively identifying what my current sitch is, but I'll go check later. Thanks everyone for the speedy good advice!


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

You can keep your pump. Try it with the new box and if the pressure is insufficient, just replace or adjust the internal pressure valve. A quick test is to drive about 15-20 mph and do a quick avoidance maneuver. (like a child runs out in front of you with a car approaching in the opposite direction, left-right-left). If the steering pressure remains high throughout the quick turns it will be fine)


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Getting ready to pull the steering shaft from my car, so that I can access the stripped header bolt. I'd love to address the steering box at the same time.

Anyone know the answer to this?

My car had the front drum conversion to disc, from a Firebird (I guess), could those spindles be reducing my throw?

I know on the Vette there are two sets of holes for the tie rod, and obviously the closer that the tie rod is to the axis, the greater the turn radius will be.


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## Lennox (Oct 17, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> When I got my 67, it had a spare steering pump in the trunk. I assumed it was a leaking unit which my uncle replaced, so I ditched it.
> 
> My car turns like a choo choo train... it's super annoying. Mild turns and parking always require two K-turns. My old 67 GTO and 66 Lemans did not have this problem.
> 
> ...


Howdy, I just used the saginaw steering box from the 1985 Monte Carlo SS. It was a direct bolt in and has a great steering ratio. I bought it from my local Napa store, they had it in Stock. I did have to buy an adapter for the pressure hose but it was inexpensive.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Lennox said:


> Howdy, I just used the saginaw steering box from the 1985 Monte Carlo SS. It was a direct bolt in and has a great steering ratio. I bought it from my local Napa store, they had it in Stock. I did have to buy an adapter for the pressure hose but it was inexpensive.


What did you have before?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

CoveKid19 said:


> As for the pump, the lower ratio (fast) boxes require a higher pressure so you would have to match the pressure as required. Not as difficult as a pump change, but just a quick simple flow control valve swap or adjustment.


Fortunately, I bookmark relevant stuff.

So.... I wonder if this is why Im screwed up in the first place. Knowing my uncle, he replaced the box and possibly the pump, but never the pressure. What would be the effects of that?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I will read through all of this again... and now that my transmission is done, I'll make this my priority. 

I would like to fix the car for the shows this weekend... So Im not sure where to start, but it's not drivable in its current state. I never minded manual steering, but this is just not doable.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

armyadarkness said:


> Thanks for the input, guys. So do the tight ratio boxes reduce steering throw?


Late to the party, but in a word, yes. A friend installed a quick ratio box in his '67 and it decreased the amount of turning angle of the front wheels. For my '67, 10-12 years ago, I simply removed my box and used it as a core for a rebuilt one from O'Reilly's. Works perfect, no leaks, and was about $140 at that time. It isn't as 'boosted' as the original box, so I have more road feel than the original, which had zero road feel. As for F-body front spindles, tried that 30 years ago on a '65 GTO and it threw the front end alignment so far out on the caster that there was not enough room on the A arm bolts to install the amount of shims required. Ripped them back off and installed A-body spindles from a disc-brake '72 Cutlass and all was well.


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