# A '70 GTO I'm looking at.



## webby (Aug 28, 2011)

G'day. I've found a 1970 GTO I'd like to buy, I've put a deposit on it, and make the go/no go decision this weekend. 

It was a 455HO,( now a 400) pwr steer, power discs. My questions are

1) it has a bench seat, obviously with tilting forward backrests. Was the bench seat available in GTO's in 1970? Colour is cream/off white.

2) Column shifted TurboHydromatic. Again was that available with the 455 in 1970?

3) Instrumentation-no extra gauges. Only speedo & fuel. Idiot lights for the rest. Again- was that standard?

I've been googling arround- mostly when at work on the phone to the customers, and can't find definate answers. Which is why I'm asking all these 
questions.

The last US owner supplied the PHS sheet which lists the car as above, with some extras- AC, Rally 2's, decor group, and others. 

VIN is 2 4237 0Zxxxxxx. My googling tells me that VIN is a Pontiac,GTO/Judge,2dr hardtop, 1970, built at Fremont CA.

So far so good ( I hope!) 

Data plate is 70-24327 BF 0341113 The '13" look they were hand stamped,from on top of the plate, rather than machine pressed from underneath like the other numbers. Again, my googling tells me that it's a 1970,Pontiac,GTO/Judge, 2dr Hardtop, built at Fremont,CA. 

PHS sheet mentions '2 TONE- STD' The data plate says "47 45 PNT"
I assume this was Palisade Green and Verdoro Green car? Seems odd, most 2 tones of that era were just a white roof.

Some of the options seem at odds with each other.On the performance front, the 455 is an engine upgrade- alright it ain't Ram Air IV, but it's an extra. Ditto the Rally 2's & G7014 rubber, & discs.

But then he/she goes for the comfort side- AC, PS, power discs, decor group,
But sticks to the basic gauges & a column auto & bench seat. 

I guess the bottom line is "is this a GTO or a Tempest/Le Mans?"

A big thank you in advance for all replies.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

webby said:


> G'day. I've found a 1970 GTO I'd like to buy, I've put a deposit on it, and make the go/no go decision this weekend.
> 
> It was a 455HO,( now a 400) pwr steer, power discs. My questions are
> 
> ...


Somethings don't add up:

The VIN will not identify the car as a Judge, only the PHS will. On the PHS The Judge with the 332 code with a list price of 337.02 will be listed if its not, this car is not a Judge regardless of what you find on google. 

I could be wrong here, but I don't think a Judge came with bench seats, I have never seen one. Bench seats is more of a family type vehicle. Gauges: NO tach?? You mention there is only a speedo and fuel and idiot lights. 242 indicates its a GTO not a Lemans. The Judge was the primo performance GTO. Unless someone custom ordered a GTO stripped of its identity I'd say judging by your description its not a Judge. The PHS would also indicate this car having R/A III or R/A IV which is NOT an add on, its factory installed if it's a Judge. All of this would be indicated on the PHS.

45/47 paint code indicates it could be Verdoro Green/Palisade Green. Dark Green vinyl tops were listed, not light Green vinyl tops. Dark Green would be the Verdoro. 

If you are finding hand stamped numbers I see red flags... altered maybe? 

Originally a 455 now a 400. Thats very plausible. 455's was an option and came with a 12 bolt rear is this listed on the PHS? A 455 ordered Judge was offered late in the '70 model year whats the build date? 

Interior color on a '70: there was no white/cream. The closest color to white was Sandalwood code: 267 for bench seat. Black was the only other bench seat color......

Be leery on this car,,,,, some things to me don't add up.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

i dont think he is asking if its a judge, just if its a real gto. looks like it is.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

*VIN is 2 4237 0Zxxxxxx. My googling tells me that VIN is a Pontiac,GTO/Judge,2dr hardtop, 1970, built at Fremont CA.

Data plate is 70-24327 BF 0341113 The '13" look they were hand stamped,from on top of the plate, rather than machine pressed from underneath like the other numbers. Again, my googling tells me that it's a 1970,Pontiac,GTO/Judge, 2dr Hardtop, built at Fremont,CA. *

Judging from the above, I got the impression he thinks it may be one.


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## webby (Aug 28, 2011)

66tempestGT said:


> i dont think he is asking if its a judge, just if its a real gto. looks like it is.


 Yes, sorry if I gave the impresssion I thought it was a Judge. The data plate decoder states '42' is the code for a GTO/Judge. I know its not a Judge, but want to confirm that its GTO, not a Tempest/Lemans.

Re the interior- it's Sandlewood ( from the Sandlewood pics I've googled) 
I called it white/cream 'cos that was the nearest colours I could think off.

No mention of RA III/IV on the build sheet. Build date from the data plate is 3rd week November '69.

The vinyl top in green would explain the 2 paint codes on the data plate I assume?

Thank you all again for your responses.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

webby said:


> Yes, sorry if I gave the impresssion I thought it was a Judge. The data plate decoder states '42' is the code for a GTO/Judge. I know its not a Judge, but want to confirm that its GTO, not a Tempest/Lemans.
> 
> Re the interior- it's Sandlewood ( from the Sandlewood pics I've googled)
> I called it white/cream 'cos that was the nearest colours I could think off.
> ...



Process of elimination:

The PHS should confirm the vinyl top. The only vinyl top in Green for '70 was dark green. The color code for Verdoro is 47 so it would make sense the top color of 47= Verdoro. 

242 confirms it as a GTO not a Lemans which 237 would have indicated it as such. 

Your PHS would confirm it has having a 455 CI. It would also state it had a 12 bolt rear with the gear ratio. Look at the rear end and count the bolts, if it has 12 that would indicate it may be original, if it has 10 bolts then it would indicate it was changed out or the 455 was not in this car as told you and had the standard 400 CI. A 455 HO car with a bench seat and column shift? Could be I suppose I never seen one. Auto trans was the TH400 for the GTO.


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

Is this listed on e-bay or craigslist? You already paid a deposit so you wouldn't have to worry about someone buying it from underneath you. Just wondering if you have pics or a link that you could post?


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## webby (Aug 28, 2011)

68greengoat said:


> Is this listed on e-bay or craigslist? You already paid a deposit so you wouldn't have to worry about someone buying it from underneath you. Just wondering if you have pics or a link that you could post?




Found the car here /www.carsales.com.au Dunno how to post a more direct link, but if you search under Pontiac then under GTO. Only 3 GTO's listed.
Its the green one listed at $22500. 

I have a pic of the Data plate, googling arround I found pics of another GTO data plate that had a restamp. "My" GTO's plate is the pic with the red arrow. The 'handstamp' is circled. The other circled data plate is another restamped one I found on line.

Once again, thank you for your help


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## webby (Aug 28, 2011)

And here is the PHS sheet.


*EDIT:* And here's the link:
1970 PONTIAC GTO Private Cars For Sale in QLD - carsales.com.au 
68'

Hope this helps.


Cheers Webby


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

$57.93 for 1970 #64 head H.O. 455 I'll take a 100 of them.


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## Amigo-2k (Jun 18, 2011)

A bench seat with column shifter is going to be a hard sell in the future.

Also, since it is non-numbers matching will make it less desirable in the future.

22500 is way to much for that car. 16-17k is about all I would pay for it.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Amigo-2k said:


> A bench seat with column shifter is going to be a hard sell in the future.
> 
> Also, since it is non-numbers matching will make it less desirable in the future.
> 
> 22500 is way to much for that car. 16-17k is about all I would pay for it.


The car is in Australia.. So, may be worth more I assume, and the Aussie and US dollar may not have the same value per exchange rate.


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## webby (Aug 28, 2011)

jetstang said:


> The car is in Australia.. So, may be worth more I assume, and the Aussie and US dollar may not have the same value per exchange rate.


Alright, so the car may only be worth 17,000 in the US. Then add the shipping, import taxes. GST (sales tax), and boot full of assorted other expenses, and the same car now landed here in Aus is now well over 25 K.
And you still have the costs to get it compliant with local laws. Eg, change the seat belts, headlights, and other things. This car has had some of the work done already. At least these days we are allowed to keep them left hand drive. Wern't always so lucky. 

From the VIN & data plate, I reckon it's a GTO, but I'm not the expert.
Was the bench seat an option in 1970? 
And was the standard instrumentation just a speedo & fuel gauge?

Matching numbers don't really bother me. I'm just after a weekend cruiser for the fun of it. It doesn't have to be the fastest, shineist car on the block. It's there to make me & Anne happy. 

And I'm not knocking the matching numbers people. I admire their passion, skill
& dedication. It's just not for me. 


My thanks and sincere appreciation for all who have replied.


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## Tambo (Aug 15, 2011)

G'day webby,
I know of this car. It's been for sale for a long time. The VIN says it's a GTO but it's a bit of a "plain Jane" with bench seat and column shift and this would have held it back, but it would suit your needs as a daily driver if it checks out OK mechanically. I have pictures of it on file and I think it may have some white ants in the rear quarters.


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

As been said, the 242 in the vin and data plate designates it a GTO. Bench seats should have been standard with buckets being an option. Standard gauges are like you said, option would have been rally gauges. The column shifter was actually an option. Standard was a 3 speed manual on the floor.

I wouldn't call it a "plain jane". It has power steering, power brakes and air. I have power nothing and manual everything. I don't even have power assist drum brakes!

Judging by the pics, it's a good lookin' ride......

I'm with you on the numbers matching. I admire people that have them, but it would drive me nuts to try and keep everything just right.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Here's something to ponder: You are paying for a series of numbers. The main number on that car that would have made the car worth anything is void: The 455 HO motor. The seller is trying to razzle dazzle this car with a car that is not what it was. For all intensive purposes that car may as well never had a 455 in it. It doesn't matter what the PHS says the car is NOT what that PHS says it is despite him harping on a 455 is rare that point is mute and adds nothing to the selling point of the car. 

Looking past that.. and if the seller is on the up and up, it may have a matching numbers rear end and transmission which is more than a lot of GTO's out there can boast. It all depends on what you want this car for. If you are looking for a driver to enjoy it for what its worth, so what it has a bench seat or not as fancy as others. If you want a GTO with more pizazz then it would be worth it to keep searching. If the car suits your needs for the purpose you want it for and the price is ok consider it. IMO 22K? I think its too much. Figure on things that will need attention that you can't see or didn't think you'd need to spend money on. Good Luck making your decision.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Good points. If you have to have a GTO, and that's the only one you can have, then OK. If there are others, or you can get this one much cheaper than his asking price, cool. The $18K the guys are talking about is a really nice, recently completed car, maybe not number matching. $25K should get a nice number matching car, that is big money. Concourse cars are $40k or so, like Barrett Jackson cars.
How much does it cost to ship a car over there? If you got $25K to spend, get one here for $18K and ship it.
If it were me I'd be rockin the car from Mad Max!! We dont' have those here, so you ship me one of those, and I'll ship you a GTO! :cheers


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## 68GTO4004Spd (Jun 19, 2008)

I would be leary of paying that much for a car that says it's not road worthy certified. Could cost you a lot to fix that, but I don't know the laws there.


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## webby (Aug 28, 2011)

68greengoat said:


> As been said, the 242 in the vin and data plate designates it a GTO. Bench seats should have been standard with buckets being an option. Standard gauges are like you said, option would have been rally gauges. The column shifter was actually an option. Standard was a 3 speed manual on the floor.
> 
> I wouldn't call it a "plain jane". It has power steering, power brakes and air. I have power nothing and manual everything. I don't even have power assist drum brakes!
> 
> ...


Thanks , Green Goat, thats what I thought. As for the power assists, I know what you mean. Had a HK Holden with manual everything. Didn't even have 
a heater. Mind you it meant the battery had an easy life- all it had to do was 
start the engine.

And thanks again to all for your valuable help.


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## webby (Aug 28, 2011)

Well I didn't end up buying the '70m but a thanks to everyone for their advice. 

You're not rid of me yet, as I'm a keen model builder,so I may pop up from time to time to ask odd questions about GTO's.

Cheers,

Webby


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## Tambo (Aug 15, 2011)

What happened Webby? I thought you were keen on that car.


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