# Trying to decide on exhaust manifolds or Dougs headers



## Rustaholic (Apr 14, 2021)

I’m real close to setting the Pontiac 428 with edelbrock round port aluminum heads with a turbo 400 transmission in my 1968 Pontiac Lemans convertible. I had decided to go with the RAR ram air manifolds with the 2.5 collectors. They are not available and won’t be any time soon, I can find the 2.25 collectors and was wondering if the collectors could be opened up or are the runners smaller diameter too. The other option is Doug’s headers I’ve heard that there can be clearance issues. The good news is it’s a frame off restoration and motor and transmission mounts will be new. I’m setting it to run, any thoughts?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

There are probably a dozen posts about it here, if you want to read all of the details, but generically the Dougs are perfect, aside from a few installation woes, most of which will be negated on a frame off install.


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## Jim K (Nov 17, 2020)

I have Doug's headers on my 71. There are absolutely NO clearance issues for the oil filter (using a full size WIX filter)
The only issue I had was around the clutch linkage which won't apply to you since you have an auto. Their fit and finish were excellent. Just realize, you won't see the real benefits of running headers until you're up around 5K RPM or so. The Ram Air manifolds are really more suited to street use. Maybe some more hunting around might produce a set of round port manifolds.. Might not be RAR but there are more than one supplier for this..


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## Rustaholic (Apr 14, 2021)

Thanks! I’m going with Doug’s headers. I saw the comparisons with RAR manifolds, headers and shorty headers. They came up with the same conclusion, not a big difference until high rev. The 428 is a performance build it will benefit with headers. Thanks again.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Good choice. I change my oil in 10 minutes, without even needing to jack up the car. You may need to dimple a tube where the rag joint is


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## Rustaholic (Apr 14, 2021)

armyadarkness said:


> Good choice. I change my oil in 10 minutes, without even needing to jack up the car. You may need to dimple a tube where the rag joint is


Great! One more question, will there be starter clearance and heat issues? I’m also thinking of going with a high torque mini starter.


armyadarkness said:


> Good choice. I change my oil in 10 minutes, without even needing to jack up the car. You may need to dimple a tube where the rag joint is
> [/QUOTE


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I dont have heat issues, but the coating on the headers help to keep it in. As for the starter, I also have a hi torque already, and it's no big deal.


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## 11th Indian (Feb 15, 2018)

you may want to contact Paul Freese via Facebook. He is a vendor, just got in a bunch of RA manifolds.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

11th Indian said:


> you may want to contact Paul Freese via Facebook. He is a vendor, just got in a bunch of RA manifolds.
> View attachment 143712


That is a beautiful photo. Is that recent?


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## Jim K (Nov 17, 2020)

I have a hi torque mini starter with no heat issues nor starting problems. My Dougs headers have the ceramic coating.


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## 11th Indian (Feb 15, 2018)

michaelfind said:


> That is a beautiful photo. Is that recent?


its from a few days ago.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

11th Indian said:


> its from a few days ago.


That is great! Is Paul Freese the same Paul I talk to at RARE? I hope so. They really have a good product there. I was discouraged when COVID and foundry problems put him so far behind. Looks like he may be catching up now😀


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Rustaholic said:


> Thanks! I’m going with Doug’s headers. I saw the comparisons with RAR manifolds, headers and shorty headers. They came up with the same conclusion, not a big difference until high rev. The 428 is a performance build it will benefit with headers. Thanks again.


From others, the Doug's seem to be a good fit. With an automatic, these seems to be less of an installation issue because you do not have the clutch linkages to deal with. I have the Doug's, ceramic coated, but have not installed them. I have a clutch set-up, but the instructions say to use the earlier '65-67 bell crank versus the swivel style on my '68 which I can see may cause interference issues.

If you are "old school", then headers just have to be used. The RA manifolds don't lose much in HP, can be easier to install, and can be quieter. But for me, popping the hood seeing the headers needs no explanation - a picture is worth a thousand words.

They are not inexpensive for the ceramic coated headers, but they are the way to go if you can afford it. If you get plain, then simply paint them with high heat paint. The ceramic coating is said to run a little cooler than the uncoated pipes - but how cool is cooler, I don't monitor my underhood temps? Oh, that's right, I am not running a hood.


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## Rustaholic (Apr 14, 2021)

I did call and talk to Paul Freese he said most of the manifolds were sold but he was getting more in and to call in a week, I’m still thinking headers. The aluminum heads on the pontiac were driving me to manifolds because I just had a lot of work done on my sprinter work van and it was an aluminum head problem on an aluminum block, broken big ass head bolt that they used a kit to fix $$$. I’m just concerned about having to retorque header bolts on aluminum heads, they will have anti seize on them. I’m sure I’m being paranoid and there are plenty of headers on aluminum heads. Thanks!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

They have header bolts with locks on them and they work very well


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## Rustaholic (Apr 14, 2021)

Perfect, I’m ordering them from Jegs with the silver ceramic coating, 1 7/8 header tubes, 3 1/2 inch collectors. I’ve got a Butler grind Comp roller cam that recommends headers. Thanks for all the help the 428s been on a engine stand for a while and I’m ready to crank and break in.


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## Jim K (Nov 17, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> From others, the Doug's seem to be a good fit. With an automatic, these seems to be less of an installation issue because you do not have the clutch linkages to deal with. I have the Doug's, ceramic coated, but have not installed them. I have a clutch set-up, but the instructions say to use the earlier '65-67 bell crank versus the swivel style on my '68 which I can see may cause interference issues.
> 
> If you are "old school", then headers just have to be used. The RA manifolds don't lose much in HP, can be easier to install, and can be quieter. But for me, popping the hood seeing the headers needs no explanation - a picture is worth a thousand words.
> 
> They are not inexpensive for the ceramic coated headers, but they are the way to go if you can afford it. If you get plain, then simply paint them with high heat paint. The ceramic coating is said to run a little cooler than the uncoated pipes - but how cool is cooler, I don't monitor my underhood temps? Oh, that's right, I am not running a hood.


Jim,
you may have better luck than I on the clutch linkage. I tried to use the 65-67 bell crank as they recommended but the down arm of it hit one of the header tubes square in the middle. I went back to my original swivel linkage and was able to use it by judiciously grinding off the very outer edge of it and that gave enough clearance for me to use it.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Jim K said:


> Jim,
> you may have better luck than I on the clutch linkage. I tried to use the 65-67 bell crank as they recommended but the down arm of it hit one of the header tubes square in the middle. I went back to my original swivel linkage and was able to use it by judiciously grinding off the very outer edge of it and that gave enough clearance for me to use it.


OK, thanks. I purchased the bell crank to have on hand. If need be, I can easily fabricate a fix if it requires cutting and relocating the arm. I intend to plate the arm to the bell crank anyway, so if I have to do some relocating, I can do it. Seems odd the instructions make note of it, and it made sense because the '68 is much bulkier. I like the swivel end as it flexes when the engine torques over and does not put the stresses on the pivot balls like the earlier bell cranks.

Nothing aftermarket seems to *really fit* and so many parts need to be tweaked or modified on our old cars. Been doing that on my entire build. LOL


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

Rustaholic said:


> I’m real close to setting the Pontiac 428 with edelbrock round port aluminum heads with a turbo 400 transmission in my 1968 Pontiac Lemans convertible. I had decided to go with the RAR ram air manifolds with the 2.5 collectors. They are not available and won’t be any time soon, I can find the 2.25 collectors and was wondering if the collectors could be opened up or are the runners smaller diameter too. The other option is Doug’s headers I’ve heard that there can be clearance issues. The good news is it’s a frame off restoration and motor and transmission mounts will be new. I’m setting it to run, any thoughts?


I purchase Doug Thorley from Ames and took them to a exhaust shop that I know very well and during the process they showed me the connection between the pipes and the flange were so poorly put together it would have failed within 6 months. I tried contacting both Dougs and Ames got no response from either. Thats Doug Thorley dont know if theyre the same


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## Jim K (Nov 17, 2020)

Droach6498 said:


> I purchase Doug Thorley from Ames and took them to a exhaust shop that I know very well and during the process they showed me the connection between the pipes and the flange were so poorly put together it would have failed within 6 months. I tried contacting both Dougs and Ames got no response from either. Thats Doug Thorley dont know if theyre the same


One thing to note is the Doug's headers we are talking about (or at least the ones I am referring to) is a different company than the Doug Thorley headers. The Doug's headers I purchased through summit were excellent is construction fit and finish.


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## Toucan49 (May 1, 2020)

I have a set of Doug's headers on my 65 GTO with power steering and the fit is right, tight but not great. I had a problem with the headers melting my rag joint and I lost steering. So be very aware of the heat and proximity of the rag joint. My solution was to buy a Borgeson U joint that made a complete metal connection of steering sector and steering wheel shaft.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Toucan49 said:


> I have a set of Doug's headers on my 65 GTO with power steering and the fit is right, tight but not great. I had a problem with the headers melting my rag joint and I lost steering. So be very aware of the heat and proximity of the rag joint. My solution was to buy a Borgeson U joint that made a complete metal connection of steering sector and steering wheel shaft.


I wish I could get the details of the metal joint. Many people talked about it, but when I went to buy one... No one knew anything. I called the company and even they didnt know.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

I didn't know anyone made a metal "rag joint." Mine gave out years ago and I was running four tube headers at that time. I never considered it might have been the hear from the headers but it likely was a factor. And that's another reason I'm sticking with ram air manifolds!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Ive just redone my exhaust 3 times since December. I have the Dougs and I would like to get the metal rag joint alternative!


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## Toucan49 (May 1, 2020)

armyadarkness said:


> I wish I could get the details of the metal joint. Many people talked about it, but when I went to buy one... No one knew anything. I called the company and even they didnt know.


I had an issue with the Borgeson tech people too, what I found was my steering shaft was 3/4 inch with 36 spline and my steering sector shaft was a 13/16 36 spline, Borgeson makes 3 universal joints which come polished and natural, and one has a double knuckle, I bought part # 113440 for around $115.00 with shipping. I knocked oft the flange on end of the steering shaft and the ujoint slipped right on both. You need an 1 1/2 or 1 3/4" clearance between which I had with no cutting or modification.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Thats solid info! Thanks bro!


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## Boomstick (Sep 13, 2021)

I have a set of flowtech ceramic coated headers that came with my car. I'm afraid of breaking off a manifold bolt which is why I haven't swapped them in yet... I called the local exhaust shop about them putting the headers on but they said they can't because their tube bender is broken. I told them I didn't need a full exhaust, just the headers put on. He said "you can't drive with open headers" I said "why not?" And he says "you just can't"... We went back and forth until I thanked him for his time and hung up...

I still don't understand why he thinks I can't drive with open headers...


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