# If GTO sales don't pick up substantially, will they disappear after '05?



## EdwardC (Oct 8, 2004)

Don't get me wrong, I will purchase a '05 GTO. However, it seems to me that Pontiac has made a monumental blunder in its pitiful attempts to advertise the GTO and overpricing the car once it was introduced with relatively bland styling. 

Despite that, no car maker will continue to market a vehicle that does not turn a profit in a short time-frame. GM is notorious for pulling the plug early on models that don't sell.


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## tskatz (Sep 29, 2004)

As a GM shareholder I say kill the car and our value could go up over the long haul.


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## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

tskatz said:


> As a GM shareholder I say kill the car and our value could go up over the long haul.


I don't think a raise in value is guaranteed. The car could be viewed as too much of an experiment/novelty.

Again, don't get me wrong, I love my GTO, but the styling is just not unique enough to be sure of any positive value change.

Besides, I didn't buy this car as an investment. If that were the case I'd have it sealed up and only drive it on nice summer days. That's missing too much of the enjoyment of the car for me. Cars are built to be driven, and I want to drive places.

So I really think it would be good for all of us if Pontiac sells a lot more of these cars and keeps building them for many more years.

---Larry


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## Neo-GTO (Sep 29, 2004)

The current car is holding a place in Pontiac's lineup for the 2007 Zeta based GTO. They won't kill it.


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## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

Neo-GTO said:


> The current car is holding a place in Pontiac's lineup for the 2007 Zeta based GTO. They won't kill it.


Things come and go at the drop of a hat. Today's favorite son at GM could be tomorrow's scape goat. IF sales figures don't line up with projections there's no telling what they'll do. I'll believe a 2007 GTO when I take delivery.

---Larry


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## JWC (Jul 28, 2004)

How can we find out the total sales of 2004 GTOs?

I want the GTO to be successful, but I also like the idea of having a fairly limited version, and since the '04 will look (and be) different than the '05, in effect, it will be unique.

I live in the Memphis area, and have only seen two other GTOs on the street.

I enjoy driving the GTO, but only do so on weekends. I plan to keep it for years to come.


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## westell (Oct 4, 2004)

EdwardC said:


> Don't get me wrong, I will purchase a '05 GTO. However, it seems to me that Pontiac has made a monumental blunder in it pitiful attempts to advertise the GTO and overpricing the car once it was introduced with relatively bland styling.
> 
> Despite that, no car maker will continue to market a vehicle that does not turn a profit in a short time-frame. GM is notorious for pulling the plug early on models that don't sell.


You're right about "marketing" Almost zero on marketing on Fbody's = Camaros & Firebirds, but they continued to make them for several years after "quitting" on serious marketing.

Now, how do you consider the GTO being overpriced ?

Look at any manufacturer producing a V8, rwd coupe and cost thereof.

And considering price of 02 Camaro Z28 / SS, Pon's T/A / Firehawk, I'd say the GTO is most bang for the buck, but then I just like muscle cars since I was about 9 yrs old.


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## EdwardC (Oct 8, 2004)

Westell,

GM didn't have to pour tons of money into marketing the F-bodies in the 80's and 90's since the Camaro and Firebird names had already been well established in the psyche of the average car buyer after decades of good sales. 

The GTO, on the other hand, is essentially a new product on North American shores. Although the GTO mystic may reverberate with enthusiasts, most car buyers these days are clueless about 60's and early 70's muscle cars. They think 442 is a brand of malted beverage.  For this reason, Pontiac should have really trumpeted the new GTO's introduction on tv and in print. 

With the initial MSRP price of ~33K, the '04 GTO was overpriced especially, in comparison, with other American midpriced V-8 coupes/sedans that are entering or have entered the market such as the new Mustang, the Dodge magnum/Chysler 300C. Only the Mercury Maurader is more costly and it is amazing that Mercury has continued production for a ~$35k barge that can has trouble keeping up with a Hyundai Tiburon.


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## westell (Oct 4, 2004)

4 speed, 4 barrel, dual exhaust. I remember  

your points well taken :cheers


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## GTO TOO (Sep 10, 2004)

A 300C with a "phake"Hemi=$35,000. Magnum "F" Hemi is $33,000 The cheaper magnums and 300's do not have a V8. Nor do they have IRS !!! The Magnum interior rivals the new Mustang for "KING of Plastic"!! As to volume the GTO was never meant to sell in big number ( even 50,000 units ) The plan I believe only called for around 16 to 18,000 a year.


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## muohio (Sep 22, 2004)

GM really doesn't have a lot to loose on the current GTO. If the sell all of the cars for any type of profit, then they suceeded. The true test will be the new platform behind the GTO and possible Chevy offering.


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## Afterglow (Nov 1, 2004)

*Will the GTO last?*

First off, GM planned to produce 15K GTO's for 04. Up till August they had only sold 30% of the projected sales. Not good, but when you take in to account that the GTO is actually built by Holden, in Australia, the car might be around for a little while longer. Since Holden builds this car, not technically GM, and the Monaro (Australia's GTO) actually sells well, the extra cost for GM is shipping the cars across the "pond". For these reasons, I think the GTO will be around for a few more years.


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## TexasRealtor (Oct 4, 2004)

westell said:


> 4 speed, 4 barrel, dual exhaust. I remember
> 
> your points well taken :cheers


I had a '71 442 convertable...sniff..
I think that Pontiac was trying to recreate the GTO like they did in '64, but back then they didn't have to compete with 13 second Subarus.


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## Neo-GTO (Sep 29, 2004)

Actually calender year sales are not that bad (meaning the 30% figure listed above). GM has sold 9,487 GTO's through October, per their own news release (link below). They had a max capacity for 18,000 a year so they are just above half, but we don't know what their realistic expectation was. If it was 15,000, then they have sold 63% of their volume in 10 months. Figure they will sell at the same rate for Nov and Dec and they will be left with about 12,000 in sales. Now, if they had the rebates on the vehicle all year, they would have gotten rather close to their production target.


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## DJ_YellowGTO (Oct 8, 2004)

The number one problem with the sales of the car is the lack or advertising. When was the last time someone asked you what kind of car is it, and once you answer saying it is a GTO you most likely get the same response as me "Did not know they made them anymore." The only time you see one is in the car magazines and that is about that. Some people even tell me they didn't know they even were sold yet. I don't think enough hype was brought to the attention of the public before the car went on sale. Plus with people knowing all the information about the 05 GTO that took some potential buyers of the 04 away to wait one more year.


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## jordangto (Nov 2, 2004)

GM really needs to restyle the GTO. It looks to much like a Grand Prix. I don't know about anyone else, but I think they need to restyle it to the 68 and 69 model years and introduce a high performance model- the JUDGE.


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## Stayingeast (Aug 10, 2004)

Neo ...Its nice to know that the GTO will be around for awhile but was wondering what's a Zeta based platform anyway??


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2004)

GTO marketing was a failure. First, the tv ads I have seen show like acloud and some unseen car behind the smoke screen. YOu cannot create expectancy for a car you never get to really see. Second, yes it needs a bettet look. Third, it has 350 hp which is very good hp; yet, not enough to take on a Cobra and too expensive to comapare to a Mustang GT or a Mach 1. Size up the GTO to imports from Japan and Germany and they all look much better, more bells and whistles and much, much, much more effective media adveretising.

I bought a GTO. Why? Because it is a 350 hp car which actually looks good for me and it is really well made inside out. Still, I wish I had waited for the 05'; nevertheless, that wish could change if the 05' is too expensive (then I would consider my 04' satisfactory). I don't drive manual shift so the 04' GTO A4 is the fastest, more powerful car I could possibly buy. You can give me a Cobra for free and I would not drive it because I will not bother with manual shift, nahhh. 

I estimate the 05' will be much more exciting and will be received with much enthusiasm with its new hood, 400 hp and new brake system. Still, effective media advertising will be an important factor because if you look at the 05' GTO it's looks differ only on the hood and the rear from the 04' look. Consumer would have to more knowledgable to appreciate what 6.0 L, 400 hp and larger surface area brake system really means.

You and me know the difference between in hp between a GTO and a Crossfire, a 350 Z or a Mazada RX-8 but your everyday consumer may not. The fact that it follows a GTO legend means nothing to me nor to the average consumer other than the GTO name and logo sort of rings a bell and is nothing absolutely new to me like if it was named Monaro. In that sense, what is really happening is that the Holden Monaro is being imported into the US with a more familiar american name and logo, GTO. 

I love my 04' and I would be even more excited if I was getting an 05' instead. The 05' is one hell of a car. Watch out Ford is cooking something really amazing for its next Cobra.


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## roadracer (Oct 31, 2004)

My understanding is that 04 GTO production didn't meet the projected 15k. It was more in the area of 13K. A local dealer had 3 more 04 GTO's on order for the last 5 months. They just arrived this week. Also the 05 GTO will only appear in large markets in late December. Some areas may not see them till the April/May time frame.


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## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

jordangto said:


> GM really needs to restyle the GTO. It looks to much like a Grand Prix. I don't know about anyone else, but I think they need to restyle it to the 68 and 69 model years and introduce a high performance model- the JUDGE.


From Pontiac's perspective its called "Brand Identity" and is a good thing. (Again - from their perspective) The idea is that they make a hot, really desirable car, but not everybody can afford it, but since the model down from it looks kinda sorta similar, people will buy that instead.

I'm sure that's not the words a class in Marketing would use, but you get the gyst.


As far as "a high performance model" Holy cow! They come out with a car that's 2 to 3 times more HP than anything else they sell and that's not enough???  Okay, but again from their persepctive, the GTO IS the high performance model - heck it is the fastest GTO they've ever made!

---Larry


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## Afterglow (Nov 1, 2004)

It kills me when people ask me about the GTO. Know one outside of the car world has a clue it even has a V8, let alone the mother of all V8's, the LS1. Hell, I ran into a guy with an 04 Vette, when he asked what I had under the hood and I told him LS1 he started laughing and said "yeah right, come on. what's really in there." He wasn't joking, I about pulled his bottom lip up over his head and smacked him. Then he got all smug and snotty when I showed him the motor. "Oh well it's still not a vette!" That kind of [email protected]#$% really gets me. I justed laughed at him when I told him my "goat" cost about 1/2 what his vette cost and its only a few tenths of a second slower. That shut him up.


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## tolnep (Nov 4, 2004)

while browsing around looking at the Vette forum I ran up on this one. so I gonna throw my general thoughts out.. my first car was a 68 roadrunner my almost second car was a 69 hemi roadrunner after a little old lady pulled out in front of me and i t-boned her totallinh my car.. but daddy said nope after a test ride.. something about that motor belonging in a russian tractor (that was his comment at the time).

so i was there for the muscle car era although what i lusted after was vettes and z28 camaros and sometimes a 427 nova (which now i can't remember if the ever really made).

i currently own a Subie WRX 2003 and a honda CRX. while browsing around for my next car, I took a look at the GTO. Now I like performance. To me that's what it's all about. I like my looks subdued. So I actually like the look of the first year GTO. what really sets me off about the car is its weight. give me a v8.. heck yeah. but give me a 3000lb+ plus car.. Or in the case of the GTO, give me at least 405 HP (just use the Z06 motor ).. Otherwise for me the car just is out there somewhere in limbo. A car that almost makes it. needs to either loose 800 or so lbs or gain 100 hp and maybe a blower or turbo or something unique to set it apart.

I just think this is a product that doesn't fit well in our market.. unless they advertise the heck out of it.. For the money, I would purchase an STI, an EVO or something similar.. Cars that a lot of folks term today's muscle cars. Which they are sort of. Standard passenger cars hot-rodded up..

and one last comment as an aside. when i went in to look at the car i noticed that the dealer had added 8000$ worth of 22 inch custom wheels (I think they were 22's, I know they were huge wagon wheels that seem to be the current craze). Destroys the peformance, suspension and brake wise. It's this sort of lost-in-space attitude that will kill this car. either that or GM will load it up with more fake ducts and vents than warts on a horny-toad..


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## westell (Oct 4, 2004)

i might be lost in space, but its the space in front of the subies, evos, and SRI's and damn near everything else.  this car is as strong as the SS Camaro I traded in for the GTO. the GTO's 3:46 vs SS's 3:43, along with new cam + valve train on this LS1 is a seat in the pants felt difference. Put a 3:73 in and your in the 12's on street tires, I'm guessing. It's marketable.

to most enthusiasts, muscle cars are very simple, V8 + RWD

i kinda like the fact I don't see 20 of the same thing i'm driving on the way home from work. like sheep in the field

Glad they're not for everybody or I coud've just gotten a vette


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## Afterglow (Nov 1, 2004)

part of the reason GM didn't put a Z06 motor in the GTO was the Vette. The Vette is GM's flag ship, they don't want any of their cars to be faster or better performing, stock. The 800lbs more on the GTO is the only reason they didn't de-tune the LS1 when they put it in the GTO. And for the price, compared to a vette, you can't beat it.


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## Neo-GTO (Sep 29, 2004)

Stayingeast said:


> Neo ...Its nice to know that the GTO will be around for awhile but was wondering what's a Zeta based platform anyway??


Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on this question.

Anyway, the Zeta architecture is an all new from the ground up RWD platform that GM is developing for midsize to large cars. It’s a project that is actually being spearheaded by GM’s Holden unit. However, it is being engineered to be used in multiple worldwide markets.

GM is planning on introducing an all new GTO that will be built on this new vehicle platform. It will be designed specifically for the North American market as a real GTO, and it is to be built in a North American factory. Therefore, they should be able to tailor the styling to “what a GTO should be,” offer more options and models, make them cheaper since they do not have the shipping costs to factor in, and make more of the if demand is there.

GM will also make a host of other vehicles on the platform too. One rumored vehicle to share this platform is an all new Camaro.


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## jordangto (Nov 2, 2004)

LarryM said:


> From Pontiac's perspective its called "Brand Identity" and is a good thing. (Again - from their perspective) The idea is that they make a hot, really desirable car, but not everybody can afford it, but since the model down from it looks kinda sorta similar, people will buy that instead.
> 
> I'm sure that's not the words a class in Marketing would use, but you get the gyst.
> 
> ...


 To me, the '65 GTO with a 389 Tri-Power is the fastest.


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## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

*04 the fastest?*

04 vs tripower has come up before. Closest I could find was from a previous post here:

IN MOTOR TREND DEC, 2003 VOLUME 55, NUMBER 12 THEY DID A COMPARSION, ON THE 1968 GTO VS 2004 IT STATES AS FOLLOWS.

1968 gto / 2004 gto
engine: 400-cubic-inch / 346 cubic inch
hp. : 360 at 5400rpm / 350 at 5200rpm
torque: 445lb-ft @4800rpm / 365lbs-ft @4000rpm
tranny: 4-speed manual / 6-speed manual
curb wt: 3650 / 3725
0-60 mph : 6.5 sec / 5.3 sec
*1/4 mile: 14.80sec @96mph / 13.62sec @104.78mph*
braking 60-0 feet: 150 ft / 120 ft
base price: $ 3,228 / $33.000

This should be about as good as you can get to a side-by-side. So unless
you think the 66 is considerable faster than the 68... 

Don't forget that in 68 the HP was "gross" measurement, not SAE, if
measured the same way the 68 would show considerably less.


---Larry


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## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

Oh! I saw my 3rd Impulse Blue GTO over the weekend. It was Saturday morning, I was balancing an egg mcmuffin as I was driving my wife to a meeting when a blue flash went passed me with this wonderful rumbling sound. I looked across to see the GTO fly by. The thing that got me the most is that our exhaust sounds even BETTER from behind!!

So that makes 3 Impulse, 1 Red. That's not very impressive folks. I sure hope the bigger engine cranks up the sales on the 05's

---Larry


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## westell (Oct 4, 2004)

in Houston as daily driver, i've only seen 1 other goat. black like mine, with paper plates (like mine) 

unfortunately, the guy was driving on the freeway like a jerk, giving us a bad name :shutme never figured out why people weave in and out, high speed, and this guy, even in the rain  

any way, i truly enjoy not seeing so many. these GTO's have got to be one of the most exclusive "clubs" around. even see a whole lot more Z06's, they're all over this town, just like the nissans, beemers, vettes, all dime a dozen, imo


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## Stayingeast (Aug 10, 2004)

*Too few GTO's*



westell said:


> in Houston as daily driver, i've only seen 1 other goat. black like mine, with paper plates (like mine)
> 
> unfortunately, the guy was driving on the freeway like a jerk, giving us a bad name :shutme never figured out why people weave in and out, high speed, and this guy, even in the rain
> 
> any way, i truly enjoy not seeing so many. these GTO's have got to be one of the most exclusive "clubs" around. even see a whole lot more Z06's, they're all over this town, just like the nissans, beemers, vettes, all dime a dozen, imo


I live in the Tampa Bay area which is a large metropolitan area and I have only seen 2 other GTO's on the road. One was yellow and the other one was red.It's a shame too...If people really knew what these awesome cars were all about they would be flying out of the Pontiac showrooms.


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## GumbyGoat (Sep 24, 2004)

Finally, after 5 weeks and two thousand miles I saw another GTO. Impulse Blue and black. A girl was driving and when I pulled up next to her to give her the old "welcome to the club" she totally ignored me like she was upset that someone had a car like hers. Or maybe she felt threatened...yeah right!!! Anyway, I finally know for certain that there are other GTOs on the road.


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