# rear suspention



## ls2gtofan2005 (May 28, 2011)

i recently changed my outer tie rod ends went sear to have it aligned come to find out the rear is 2.4 neg camber they said there was no parts for it. in doing some research i found out it could be worn out rear springs or maybe the rear shocks. the rear seems to squat evenly my right rear tire is almost bald will post pic later i can't really tell if the the back lower then the front.

but i did as lame and unacurate as it may be the right side of the car front and back from the ground up is bout 7 1/2 hands high the passenger side front is bout 8 and rear is 7.

now my questions are is there a set height from the ground to the botton of the fender i should be looking for? 2. is there a way i can just change the rear springs and fix the rear alignment or should i just go ahead and replace the shocks and the springs at the same time? the steering wheel is bout 5 degrees to the right.

any help would be great i will post all the the info i have sat if what i said doesnt help.


----------



## danfigg (Sep 27, 2009)

*re*

Well now was this an average hand or a large hand because if its the large hand the:confused you are right at factory spec which would equal 7 hands. I would say the negative camber is from the 9 pound sledge hammer they used to get it into specification. The 5 pound sledge hammer would have gotten it dead on balls accurate. The right rear bald tire is from excessive pressure on the gas pedal slash clutch dumps above 4000 RPM's and or excessive pressure on both gas pedal and brake pedal otherwise known as power braking the car until rubber is scene spewn about. Maybe a more accurate form of measurement would be to utilize an instrument designed to give more accurate information such as a ruler or a measuring tape. I personally like to put my elbow to the ground and see where my finger tips end up usually close to the quarter panel and or fender and divide it by 3 and multiply it by 1.7 X 17 % it should equal 605mm on the average----danfigg


----------



## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

lol. The end of his reply is right. With 17" wheels you should be about 605mm from the bottom of a 17" wheel (not the ground) thru the center of the wheel to the fender. That's about 23 3/4". For 18" add a half an inch. Rear springs are very easy to change. Remove the bottom shock bolt (you are supposed to use new bolts to reinstall but I've just used LocTite), push down on the control arm (I used a small bottle jack) and take the spring out. It's a good idea to change the shock too as the stock one is extremely weak. IMHO replacing the inner and outer control arm bushings help rear camber too but they are a little more involved.


----------



## ls2gtofan2005 (May 28, 2011)

svede1212 said:


> lol. The end of his reply is right. With 17" wheels you should be about 605mm from the bottom of a 17" wheel (not the ground) thru the center of the wheel to the fender. That's about 23 3/4". For 18" add a half an inch. Rear springs are very easy to change. Remove the bottom shock bolt (you are supposed to use new bolts to reinstall but I've just used LocTite), push down on the control arm (I used a small bottle jack) and take the spring out. It's a good idea to change the shock too as the stock one is extremely weak. IMHO replacing the inner and outer control arm bushings help rear camber too but they are a little more involved.


Well according to the alignment paper the left rear is within spec the right has -2.4 danger and -0.07 toe does this help narrow the issue down? And thanks for quick help.


----------



## ls2gtofan2005 (May 28, 2011)

I just measured the wheel night from bottom of the rim to the bottom of the fender
LF is just tad more then 23 in the rear is just a lil less then 23in.
RF 23.5in LR 22.5 in. Hope this helps in narrowing down the issue


----------



## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

ls2gtofan2005 said:


> I just measured the wheel night from bottom of the rim to the bottom of the fender
> LF is just tad more then 23 in the rear is just a lil less then 23in.
> RF 23.5in LR 22.5 in. Hope this helps in narrowing down the issue


You are definitely low which isn't surprising as a lot of these car's springs sagged. My car has drop springs and I'm at 23" _BUT_ I have poly inner and outer control arm bushings and they hold my negative camber to -1.2º to -1.4º. Remember that springs control the height (and camber due to height) and shocks just control the "bounce".

BTW toe is adjustable


----------



## TR GTO (Mar 17, 2007)

Not to mention that these cars build camber fast with the design of the rear suspension. I have Lovells zero drop rear springs and I'm at -.2 camber, which means with only 20mm drop(assuming that's your drop at 23" Svede) you're looking at a gain of a full degree.


----------



## ls2gtofan2005 (May 28, 2011)

My shocks seem to be ok for now. I just need to get the springs at a good price preferable sold in pairs.


----------



## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

TR GTO said:


> Not to mention that these cars build camber fast with the design of the rear suspension. I have Lovells zero drop rear springs and I'm at -.2 camber, which means with only 20mm drop(assuming that's your drop at 23" Svede) you're looking at a gain of a full degree.


That's what I have but with a lot better camber. You should definitely try the rear inner and outer control arm bushings. Once you get the old ones out you'll see why they're not holding the arm in the correct position



ls2gtofan2005 said:


> My shocks seem to be ok for now. I just need to get the springs at a good price preferable sold in pairs.


kollarracingproducts.com . When you disconnect the lower shock bolt push the shock up and down and you'll see why they are junk too.


----------



## ls2gtofan2005 (May 28, 2011)

oh iam not doubting they are i seen how bad my outer tie rod ends where. it seems gm took too many short cut to save money. you would think a car that was $30,000 in 05 would have a better quality suspention on it. maybe i can pull a nascar trick and put a rubber between the springs to buy some time lol.


----------



## firebird (Feb 6, 2011)

i just took my springs off and disconected the shocks. rolled my 285 35 18 all the way up, the passanger side cleared all the way through with nitto 555r no issues. do the same on driver side, and it hits the fender, i was like WTF. Then, i meassured the tie rod, and toe adjuster is 71mm on passanger side and 77mm on driver side. so the tie rod is 6mm longer on my driver side and brings the wheel out and is why it's touching. i need to bring that wheel in by 6mm. this blows...

anyway, is it a good idea to adjust the toe on the car without disconecting the tie rod and taking it out? i tried at first but it seems like it's stuck, i'll have to do it with more effort on monday.


----------



## firebird (Feb 6, 2011)

i took the lower bolt out on shocks in the rear and they would not come out, the bushing seems to be freaking glued to the dang control arm bolt? suggestions? hammer it out?


----------



## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

firebird said:


> i just took my springs off and disconected the shocks. rolled my 285 35 18 all the way up, the passanger side cleared all the way through with nitto 555r no issues. do the same on driver side, and it hits the fender, i was like WTF. Then, i meassured the tie rod, and toe adjuster is 71mm on passanger side and 77mm on driver side. so the tie rod is 6mm longer on my driver side and brings the wheel out and is why it's touching. i need to bring that wheel in by 6mm. this blows...
> 
> anyway, is it a good idea to adjust the toe on the car without disconecting the tie rod and taking it out? i tried at first but it seems like it's stuck, i'll have to do it with more effort on monday.


The toe rod should be adjusted by an alignment shop. It will be what it will be to make the wheels point straight. They're not to adjust where your wheel fits in the well. A lot of these cars have the rear subframe off. There is an alignment tool for the rear subframe that fits in datum holes on the car and subframe. The Pontiac dealers had them at one time but most didn't even know what they were for. I know Pedders dealers have them and I've seen them on eBay at one time. You make want to pursue that. What size & width wheel are you using?


----------



## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

ls2gtofan2005 said:


> oh iam not doubting they are i seen how bad my outer tie rod ends where. it seems gm took too many short cut to save money. you would think a car that was $30,000 in 05 would have a better quality suspention on it. maybe i can pull a nascar trick and put a rubber between the springs to buy some time lol.


Don't do that. That could cause failure. Get some $80 air bags. With those you can adjust the height and ride.


----------



## firebird (Feb 6, 2011)

svede1212 said:


> The toe rod should be adjusted by an alignment shop. It will be what it will be to make the wheels point straight. They're not to adjust where your wheel fits in the well. A lot of these cars have the rear subframe off. There is an alignment tool for the rear subframe that fits in datum holes on the car and subframe. The Pontiac dealers had them at one time but most didn't even know what they were for. I know Pedders dealers have them and I've seen them on eBay at one time. You make want to pursue that. What size & width wheel are you using?


i'm using 18x10.5 inch width. the tire size is 285. there is a plenty of space for 295 with slim camber adjuster. i will have to look into this tie rod and wheel adjustment. if it's straight now, i may have to get the camber kit and move it in by 1 to 2mm, not sure how many degrees that equals to.


----------



## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

If you tilt your tire too much just to get it to fit you'll lose the benefit of having a wider tire and greatly accelerate tire wear. People usually use those eccentrics kits to get less negative camber not more. If you're using a 10.5" wide wheel your offset is probably wrong. On one that wide you should be about +55 to +60mm offset, have to grind a notch in the control arm on the inside and use a shock spacer to make it fit correctly. Honestly I've never seen one that used more than a 10" wide wheel without a minitub and that's stretching the limits. 9.5 is a lot more doable with a ~54mm offset. In the 7+ years there have been many attempts at fitting big wheels and tires in and you're going to be running into issues that could have been avoided. Your Nittos run almost an inch narrower than the same size in like BFG but I guess you could try going down a size.


----------



## ls2gtofan2005 (May 28, 2011)

svede1212 said:


> Don't do that. That could cause failure. Get some $80 air bags. With those you can adjust the height and ride.


the rubber comment was meant as a joke lol. i need to find a video of how to do it so i know exactly what i'am doing.


----------



## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

ls2gtofan2005 said:


> the rubber comment was meant as a joke lol. i need to find a video of how to do it so i know exactly what i'am doing.


Doing which thing?


----------



## firebird (Feb 6, 2011)

it will be fine, i just need to adjust the driver side, the widest point of tire touches the fender when the tire goes underneath, i am not sure if the car will even squat down this much, but want to make sure if it does that it's clear.

the offset is perfect for for 10.5 width as the passanger side fits under and no issues. i have like 1 inche clearance from the control arm to the tire. it would be nice if i could just shave some of the wheel....


----------



## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

firebird said:


> it will be fine, i just need to adjust the driver side, the widest point of tire touches the fender when the tire goes underneath, i am not sure if the car will even squat down this much, but want to make sure if it does that it's clear.
> 
> the offset is perfect for for 10.5 width as the passanger side fits under and no issues. i have like 1 inche clearance from the control arm to the tire. it would be nice if i could just shave some of the wheel....


What wheels do you have that are 10 1/2" wide and truly fit? 10 1/2" will hit the control arm unless notched or if they stick out too far. There's only so much room to work with. You do know that a static fit is part of it but when you turn hard the arm will flex and the tire distort so you need more than a paper thickness to clear. I'll be real curious to see how you're going to "adjust" one side and also see the pictures of the setup. You might find a body shop to stretch the fenders out a bit.


----------



## ls2gtofan2005 (May 28, 2011)

svede1212 said:


> Doing which thing?


Change the. Rear springs it just something I like to do


----------



## ls2gtofan2005 (May 28, 2011)

what bout buing a used rear spring from ebay to get me buy till can get better ones.


----------



## firebird (Feb 6, 2011)

the wheels are privat, dont know the model, might be disco, i'll post a pic so someone can id them for me. like i said the passanger clears, fits like a charm. i am working on this. i am trying to find if any shop would shave the insde of the wheel where the hub attaches, so that would bring them more towards the arm and clear the fender.


----------



## Falco21 (May 11, 2010)

I honestly can't understand anything your typing


----------



## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

ls2gtofan2005 said:


> what bout buing a used rear spring from ebay to get me buy till can get better ones.


You'll probably get the same thing you have now. Saggy rears are a common issue. Really, get the AirLift bags for the Mazda MPV. They help tremendously with wheel hop and even if you upgrade to new springs later on you can sell the bags in the old springs or install the bags in your new springs. I run them in my Lovells springs and have them nearly deflated for the street and pump them up when I go to the track.


----------



## firebird (Feb 6, 2011)

hey svede do the bags stiffer the springs/rear or is it just for the wheel hop when the rear starts bouncing?


----------



## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

They make it stiffer and raise the back end. On the street if I run them inflated to drag pressures the back end hops over bumps from how stiff it is. If you run them at a lower pressure work like slightly stiffer springs


----------



## ls2gtofan2005 (May 28, 2011)

I got under the car to measure the springs just double checking things found out no need to measure I could tel the right spring was lower. Any other info I need to know when change n these you know special tool etc?


----------



## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

Take the wheel off, undo the lower shock bolt, push down hard on the control arm, take spring out.


----------



## ls2gtofan2005 (May 28, 2011)

Simple as that???? For I will probly have to beat the wheel off like I did for the breaks cue the dank thing wouldn't budge


----------



## LS2 MN6 (Jul 14, 2010)

I'm glad I ordered my kit last month, about a week ago my shocks lost another .5" I now am at about 22.5" from the ground. My tires (at rest) would be a full quarter to half inch up into my fender (at least) and that's not good...


----------



## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

I used a little bottle jack to push the arm down but it's that simple. Use a wire brush on the hub and then put some grease or anti-seize on it before you put the wheels back on. Nothing worse than having a flat in the rain and not being able to get the wheel off.


----------



## ls2gtofan2005 (May 28, 2011)

Well I called the local dealer and they said gm was discontinue n the springs.


----------



## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

Time to get bags or some Lovells springs. The bags I'd wager would be quite a bit less than GM parts anyways and work better. 

edit: I just looked it up and one GM spring is $149.79 list


----------



## ls2gtofan2005 (May 28, 2011)

True they are but I went to gmpartsdepartment.com and they had them at 98.19 and I was told by them its on a national back order. And where can I get these said bags.


----------



## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

Here's a picture of them installed and here's one place to get them. They are the AirLift 60759. There are supposedly "GTO" ones but they require cutting the bump stops off. These you just jam in sideways and have the line stick out thru the coils. They will last a very long time and you can adjust the ride for any height or stiffness you want. For the drag strip I pump mine to 15# and on the street have it at about 3#. You fold them up a little and helps if you "lube" them up with soapy water to squeeze them in.


----------



## ls2gtofan2005 (May 28, 2011)

who's springs are better kollar or peddars notice that peddars is one dollar more them kollar.


----------



## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

IMHO the springs are on par with each other. I know the spring rate s the same except for the Pedders 1/4" raise "drag" spring which is a little stiffer. The 20mm drop spring is the best looking, doesn't mess with anything and will work with standard shocks as well as improve handling.


----------



## ls2gtofan2005 (May 28, 2011)

Iam assumeing you mean the 320 mm springs???


----------



## 4WARNEDGTO (Apr 23, 2011)

svede, Im having problems with my tires rubbing the wheel wells, Will these bags help that, can I only pump them up for the track or can they be pumped up for everyday driving?


----------

