# Lemon Law



## Hideaway (Oct 28, 2004)

I bought an 04 GTO Quicksilver M6 back in September with 27 miles on the odometer. My first impression was that it was a damn great upgrade from my 120 HP 96 Sunfire, but my GTO has had a few problems already. My first problem was a defective shift lever that became apparent at 700 miles. The shift lever had a loud rattle as soon as the engine was running at 3,000 RPM, and would sometimes pop out of gear on its own. My dealer replaced the shift lever, and that took care of my first problem with my GTO.
The second problem that I had was a bad differential. My dealer is in the process of replacing it. I may have observed problem number three while I was taking my GTO back to the dealership the other day, because I observed a high engine temperature alarm on my center dashboard display, and I also saw the engine temperature indicator go all of the way to the right, then instantly back to the normal indication. I checked the coolant level, and oberved it as being normal. The false alarm has not reappeared again since it first activated. I have heard about a 04 GTO gremlin that causes the speed odometer to occasionally falsely display 200 MPH when the car is idling, but I have not had that problem with my GTO. I wonder if this gremlin may have found its way into my temperature indicator instead of my speed odometer.
Does anyone know when a consumer can declare a car a lemon, and force their dealer to replace the car completely?
I think my dealer owes me an 05 GTO in order to compensate me for selling me a brand new car that has already had 2, and possibly 3 major problems problems within the car's first 3,000 miles.


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

*Here is the Lemon Law for California*

California Lemon Law Statutes Cal Civ Code § 1793.22 
Cal Civ Code § 1793.22 (2004)

§ 1793.22. Reasonable number of attempts to conform vehicle to warranties; Dispute resolution process; Transfer of vehicle

This section shall be known and may be cited as the Tanner Consumer Protection Act. 


It shall be presumed that a reasonable number of attempts have been made to conform a new motor vehicle to the applicable express warranties if, within 18 months from delivery to the buyer or 18,000 miles on the odometer of the vehicle, whichever occurs first, one or more of the following occurs: 
The same nonconformity results in a condition that is likely to cause death or serious bodily injury if the vehicle is driven and the nonconformity has been subject to repair two or more times by the manufacturer or its agents, and the buyer or lessee has at least once directly notified the manufacturer of the need for the repair of the nonconformity. 
The same nonconformity has been subject to repair four or more times by the manufacturer or its agents and the buyer has at least once directly notified the manufacturer of the need for the repair of the nonconformity. 
The vehicle is out of service by reason of repair of nonconformities by the manufacturer or its agents for a cumulative total of more than 30 calendar days since delivery of the vehicle to the buyer. The 30-day limit shall be extended only if repairs cannot be performed due to conditions beyond the control of the manufacturer or its agents. The buyer shall be required to directly notify the manufacturer pursuant to paragraphs (1) and (2) only if the manufacturer has clearly and conspicuously disclosed to the buyer, with the warranty or the owner's manual, the provisions of this section and that of subdivision (d) of Section 1793.2, including the requirement that the buyer must notify the manufacturer directly pursuant to paragraphs (1) and (2). The notification, if required, shall be sent to the address, if any, specified clearly and conspicuously by the manufacturer in the warranty or owner's manual. This presumption shall be a rebuttable presumption affecting the burden of proof, and it may be asserted by the buyer in any civil action, including an action in small claims court, or other formal or informal proceeding. 


If a qualified third-party dispute resolution process exists, and the buyer receives timely notification in writing of the availability of that qualified third-party dispute resolution process with a description of its operation and effect, the presumption in subdivision (b) may not be asserted by the buyer until after the buyer has initially resorted to the qualified third-party dispute resolution process as required in subdivision (d). Notification of the availability of the qualified third-party dispute resolution process is not timely if the buyer suffers any prejudice resulting from any delay in giving the notification. If a qualified third-party dispute resolution process does not exist, or if the buyer is dissatisfied with that third-party decision, or if the manufacturer or its agent neglects to promptly fulfill the terms of the qualified third-party dispute resolution process decision after the decision is accepted by the buyer, the buyer may assert the presumption provided in subdivision (b) in an action to enforce the buyer's rights under subdivision (d) of Section 1793.2. The findings and decision of a qualified third-party dispute resolution process shall be admissible in evidence in the action without further foundation. Any period of limitation of actions under any federal or California laws with respect to any person shall be extended for a period equal to the number of days between the date a complaint is filed with a third-party dispute resolution process and the date of its decision or the date before which the manufacturer or its agent is required by the decision to fulfill its terms if the decision is accepted by the buyer, whichever occurs later. 


A qualified third-party dispute resolution process shall be one that does all of the following:


Complies with the minimum requirements of the Federal Trade Commission for informal dispute settlement procedures as set forth in Part 703 of Title 16 of the Code of Federal Regulations, as those regulations read on January 1, 1987.


Renders decisions which are binding on the manufacturer if the buyer elects to accept the decision.


Prescribes a reasonable time, not to exceed 30 days after the decision is accepted by the buyer, within which the manufacturer or its agent must fulfill the terms of its decisions.


Provides arbitrators who are assigned to decide disputes with copies of, and instruction in, the provisions of the Federal Trade Commission's regulations in Part 703 of Title 16 of the Code of Federal Regulations as those regulations read on January 1, 1987, Division 2 (commencing with Section 2101) of the Commercial Code, and this chapter.


Requires the manufacturer, when the process orders, under the terms of this chapter, either that the nonconforming motor vehicle be replaced if the buyer consents to this remedy or that restitution be made to the buyer, to replace the motor vehicle or make restitution in accordance with paragraph (2) of subdivision (d) of Section 1793.2.


Provides, at the request of the arbitrator or a majority of the arbitration panel, for an inspection and written report on the condition of a nonconforming motor vehicle, at no cost to the buyer, by an automobile expert who is independent of the manufacturer.


Takes into account, in rendering decisions, all legal and equitable factors, including, but not limited to, the written warranty, the rights and remedies conferred in regulations of the Federal Trade Commission contained in Part 703 of Title 16 of the Code of Federal Regulations as those regulations read on January 1, 1987, Division 2 (commencing with Section 2101) of the Commercial Code, this chapter, and any other equitable considerations appropriate in the circumstances. Nothing in this chapter requires that, to be certified as a qualified third-party dispute resolution process pursuant to this section, decisions of the process must consider or provide remedies in the form of awards of punitive damages or multiple damages, under subdivision (c) of Section 1794, or of attorneys' fees under subdivision (d) of Section 1794, or of consequential damages other than as provided in subdivisions (a) and (b) of Section 1794, including, but not limited to, reasonable repair, towing, and rental car costs actually incurred by the buyer.


Requires that no arbitrator deciding a dispute may be a party to the dispute and that no other person, including an employee, agent, or dealer for the manufacturer, may be allowed to participate substantively in the merits of any dispute with the arbitrator unless the buyer is allowed to participate also. Nothing in this subdivision prohibits any member of an arbitration board from deciding a dispute.


Obtains and maintains certification by the Department of Consumer Affairs pursuant to Chapter 9 (commencing with Section 472) of Division 1 of the Business and Professions Code.



For the purposes of subdivision (d) of Section 1793.2 and this section, the following terms have the following meanings:


"Nonconformity" means a nonconformity which substantially impairs the use, value, or safety of the new motor vehicle to the buyer or lessee.


"New motor vehicle" means a new motor vehicle which is used or bought for use primarily for personal, family, or household purposes. "New motor vehicle" includes the chassis, chassis cab, and that portion of a motor home devoted to its propulsion, but does not include any portion designed, used, or maintained primarily for human habitation, a dealer-owned vehicle and a "demonstrator" or other motor vehicle sold with a manufacturer's new car warranty but does not include a motorcycle or a motor vehicle which is not registered under the Vehicle Code because it is to be operated or used exclusively off the highways. A "demonstrator" is a vehicle assigned by a dealer for the purpose of demonstrating qualities and characteristics common to vehicles of the same or similar model and type.


"Motor home" means a vehicular unit built on, or permanently attached to, a self-propelled motor vehicle chassis, chassis cab, or van, which becomes an integral part of the completed vehicle, designed for human habitation for recreational or emergency occupancy.




Except as provided in paragraph (2), no person shall sell, either at wholesale or retail, lease, or transfer a motor vehicle transferred by a buyer or lessee to a manufacturer pursuant to paragraph (2) of subdivision (d) of Section 1793.2 or a similar statute of any other state, unless the nature of the nonconformity experienced by the original buyer or lessee is clearly and conspicuously disclosed to the prospective buyer, lessee, or transferee, the nonconformity is corrected, and the manufacturer warrants to the new buyer, lessee, or transferee in writing for a period of one year that the motor vehicle is free of that nonconformity.


Except for the requirement that the nature of the nonconformity be disclosed to the transferee, paragraph (1) does not apply to the transfer of a motor vehicle to an educational institution if the purpose of the transfer is to make the motor vehicle available for use in automotive repair courses.


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The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act 
The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act is a Federal Law that protects the buyer of any product which costs more than $25 and comes with an express written warranty. This law applies to any product that you buy that does not perform as it should.

The Magnuson-Moss statute gives consumers considerable rights in dealing with manufacturers of lemon cars. A car buyer is guaranteed that certain minimum requirements of warranties must be met, and provides for disclosure of warranties before purchase.

Regarding "lemon cars", this law greatly affects the rights of car buyers. For any product which has a written warranty if any part of the product, or the product itself is considered defective, the warrantor must permit the buyer the choice of either a refund or replacement of the product.

Law firms have argued successfully to juries that the lemon manufacturers should be given three attempts to fix the defect. Continued attempts to repair beyond the initial three should not be allowed. This is called the "three strikes and you're out" principle. 

A consumer may pursue legal action in any court of general jurisdiction in the United States to enforce his rights under the Magnuson-Moss Law. Attorney's fees based on actual time spent will be covered if the consumer does prevail. 

Due to this particular condition, there is quite a bit of financial pressure on the manufacturer to settle consumers disputes before going to court, as this would keep their expenses down. 


The narrative information on Magnusson-Moss, UCC and lemon laws on these pages is provided by T. Michael Flinn, attorney. 

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Uniform Commercial Code Summary 
The Uniform Commercial Code or UCC has been enacted in all 50 states and some of the territories of the United States. It is the primary source of law in all contracts dealing with the sale of products. The TARR refers to Tender, Acceptance, Rejection, Revocation and applies to different aspects of the consumer's "relationship" with the purchased goods. 

TENDER - 
The tender provisions of the Uniform Commercial Code contained in Section2-601 provide that the buyer is entitled to reject any goods that fail in any respect to conform to the contract. Unfortunately, new cars are often technically complex and their innermost workings are beyond the understanding of the average new car buyer. The buyer, therefore, does not know whether the goods are then conforming.
ACCEPTANCE - 
The new car buyer accepts the goods believing and expecting that the manufacturer will repair any problem he has with the goods under the warranty.
REJECTION - 
The new car buyer may discover a problem with the vehicle within the first few miles of his purchase. This would allow the new car buyer to reject the goods. If the new car buyer discovers a defect in the car within a reasonable time to inspect the vehicle, he may reject the vehicle. This period is not defined. On the one hand, the buyer must be given a reasonable time to inspect and that reasonable time to inspect will be held as an acceptance of the vehicle. The Courts will decide this reasonable time to inspect based on the knowledge and experience of the buyer, the difficulty in discovering the defect, and the opportunity to discover the defect.
The following is an example of a case of rejection: Mr. Zabriskie purchase a new 1966 Chevrolet Biscayne. After picking up the car on Friday evening, while en route to his home 2.5 miles away, and within 7/10ths of a mile from the dealership, the car stalled and stalled again within 15 feet. Thereafter, the car would only drive in low gear. The buyer rejected the vehicle and stopped payment on his check. The dealer contended that the buyer could not reject the car because he had driven it around the the block and that was his reasonable opportunity to inspect. The New Jersey Court said;


To the layman, the complicated mechanisms of today's automobile are a complete mystery.To have the automobile inspected by someone with sufficient expertise to disassemble the vehicle in order the discover latent defects before the contract is signed, is assuredly impossible and highly impractical. Consequently, the first few miles of driving become even more significant to the excited new car buyer. This is the buyer's first reasonable opportunity to enjoy his new vehicle to see if it conforms to what it was represented to be and whether he is getting what he bargained for. How long the buyer may drive the new car under the guise of inspection of new goods is not an issue in the present case because 7/10th of a mile is clearly within the ambit of a reasonable opportunity to inspect. Zabriskie Chevrolet, Inc.v. Smith, 240 A. 2d 195(1968) 

It is suggested that Courts will tend to excuse use by consumers if possible. 

REVOCATION - 
What happens when the consumer has used the new car for a lengthy period of time? This is the typical lemon car case. The UCC provides that a buyer may revoke his acceptance of goods whose non-conformity substantially impairs the value of the goods to him when he has accepted the goods without discovery of a non-conformity because it was difficult to discover or if he was assured that non-conformities would be repaired. Of course, the average new car buyer does not learn of the nonconformity until hundreds of thousands of miles later. And because quality is job one, and manufacturers are competing on the basis of their warranties, the consumer always is assured that any noncomformities he does discover will be remedied. 
What is a noncomformity substantially impairing the value of the vehicle? 
A noncomformity may include a number of relatively minor defects whose cumulative total adds up to a substantial impairment. This is the "Shake Faith" Doctrine first stated in the Zabrisikie case. "For a majority of people the purchase of a new car is a major investment, rationalized by the peace of mind that flows from its dependability and safety. Once their faith is shaken, the vehicle loses not only its real value in their eyes, but becomes an instrument whose integrity is substantially impaired and whose operation is fraught with apprehension". 
A substantial noncomformity may include a failure or refusal to repair the goods under the warranty. In Durfee V. Rod Baxter Imports, the Minnesota Court held that the Saab owner that was plagued by a series of of annoying minor defects and stalling, which were never repaired after a number of attempts, could revoke, "if repairs are not successfully undertaken within a reasonable time", the consumer may elect to revoke. 
Substantial Non Conformity and Lemon Laws often define what may be considered a substantial impairment. These definitions have been successfully used to flesh out the substantial impairment in the UCC. 
The narrative information on Magnusson-Moss, UCC and lemon laws on these pages is provided by T. Michael Flinn, attorney.


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## Jon Baumgardner (Nov 10, 2004)

*Not a lemon law case at this time*

Unfortunately if the dealer can fix your car, it is not a case for lemon law in the states I'm familier with.

A person can only lemon law a car in most states where a problem cannot be repaired or numerous attempts at a repair are made.

The chances of you getting an 05 as a replacement are about the same as you winning the 149 million dollar lottery.

You're best bet is to maintain a good relationship with the dealer and have your car fixed. It does not hurt to ask for dinner coupons, rental car, other small tokens for the inconvenience you are suffering.

Good luck.


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## sboylan (Nov 14, 2004)

It's funny you should mention that, apparently it only takes 78 pennies.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1122041lotto1.html


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## fatgoat04 (Oct 25, 2004)

I have had the problem with the speed-o-meter going to 200 while in idle. It only did every time I would come to a full stop on the way to work. Once I turn the engine off and back on again, I have not had a problem. So at least I have not reported that yet. Also when I was at about 500 miles, I also had the heat go all the way to right. Stopped and checked it out but nothing. Again, I turned off the engine and since then I never had either of the problems. I don't think that I can report these problems if when I go back to the dealership, I can show them the problem. ANy thoughts?


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## westell (Oct 4, 2004)

fatgoat04 said:


> I have had the problem with the speed-o-meter going to 200 while in idle. It only did every time I would come to a full stop on the way to work. Once I turn the engine off and back on again, I have not had a problem. So at least I have not reported that yet. Also when I was at about 500 miles, I also had the heat go all the way to right. Stopped and checked it out but nothing. Again, I turned off the engine and since then I never had either of the problems. I don't think that I can report these problems if when I go back to the dealership, I can show them the problem. ANy thoughts?


'

Check other threads guys on "electrical problems" there's a couple of 'em

Many have had their problems fixed by 20 minute re-programing by dealer.

Would like to know reason for "rear end failure" requiring total replacement.

I'd venture that most new cars have a problem or two. Mercedes Benz went right out the window due to poor quality with JD Powers


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## TexasRealtor (Oct 4, 2004)

The Lemon Law in Texas basically says if the dealer cannot fix the same problem on three or more attempts on a new vehicle less than 12 months old, then the dealer will have to give you a comparable model in exchange.


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## GoatHerder (Nov 21, 2004)

The problems you've been having don't qualify for most Consumer Protection Laws (aka Lemon Laws). What I would recommend you do is to contact Pontiac Customer Assistance and be sure they document the problems you've been having with the vehicle and the current problem with the rear end. 

Don't go in all angry and demanding. Work with the CRM and your dealer to have your problems addressed. Once it has been repaired, express to the CRM who is assisting you at CAC that you are losing confidence in the vehicle and are concerned about future out of pocket repair expenses once the warranty runs out.

Most likely they will offer you a free GMPP (extended service contract) to cover the vehicle for a period of time and mileage after the warranty runs out. At the very least, they will probably offer you a componant letter covering the systems you've been having problems with which will cover them beyond the B to B warranty.

Greg


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## roadracer (Oct 31, 2004)

If you are truely dissatisfied with the car you should check out the GM buy back program. I have a friend that had his Silverado bought back for nothing more than a bad battery. He insisted there was a problem in the electrical system and eventually had the truck bought back. In talking to a local dealer he has had GM buy back 4 vehicles this past year. It is something that will have to go through your GM area rep. Just a thought.


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## Hideaway (Oct 28, 2004)

Hideaway said:


> I bought an 04 GTO Quicksilver M6 back in September with 27 miles on the odometer. My first impression was that it was a damn great upgrade from my 120 HP 96 Sunfire, but my GTO has had a few problems already. My first problem was a defective shift lever that became apparent at 700 miles. The shift lever had a loud rattle as soon as the engine was running at 3,000 RPM, and would sometimes pop out of gear on its own. My dealer replaced the shift lever, and that took care of my first problem with my GTO.
> The second problem that I had was a bad differential. My dealer is in the process of replacing it. I may have observed problem number three while I was taking my GTO back to the dealership the other day, because I observed a high engine temperature alarm on my center dashboard display, and I also saw the engine temperature indicator go all of the way to the right, then instantly back to the normal indication. I checked the coolant level, and oberved it as being normal. The false alarm has not reappeared again since it first activated. I have heard about a 04 GTO gremlin that causes the speed odometer to occasionally falsely display 200 MPH when the car is idling, but I have not had that problem with my GTO. I wonder if this gremlin may have found its way into my temperature indicator instead of my speed odometer.
> Does anyone know when a consumer can declare a car a lemon, and force their dealer to replace the car completely?
> I think my dealer owes me an 05 GTO in order to compensate me for selling me a brand new car that has already had 2, and possibly 3 major problems problems within the car's first 3,000 miles.



I just got my GTO back today. My dealer replaced the differential, and it sounds a hell of alot better without that rearend whine. The mechanic told me that GM ordered him to immediately replace the differential and ship the bad one back to them, so they can figure out why it fell apart so quickly. The cost for a new differential is about $3000, but my car's warranty covered the cost.


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