# Dual Gate Shifting for a newbie



## genenina1 (Nov 16, 2021)

Please forgive the dumb newbie questions, but better safe than sorry. 1967 GTO with a 400CI. On the "His" side of a Dual Gate with a TH400. 
When shifting from 1st to 2nd to 3rd, what speed/RPM should you shift?
When up in 3rd and slowing down to a stop, do you have to down shift? If yes, at what recommended speed/RPM's? Also, when bumping into 3rd, is it possible to go to far and have it pop over into neutral? 

Thanks All.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

genenina1 said:


> Please forgive the dumb newbie questions, but better safe than sorry. 1967 GTO with a 400CI. On the "His" side of a Dual Gate with a TH400.
> When shifting from 1st to 2nd to 3rd, what speed/RPM should you shift?
> When up in 3rd and slowing down to a stop, do you have to down shift? If yes, at what recommended speed/RPM's? Also, when bumping into 3rd, is it possible to go to far and have it pop over into neutral?
> 
> Thanks All.


The manual side of the shifter is just that - manual. It should not shift out of gear until you do. Shifting manual should have a good hard shift if it is the correct TH-400 and not been swapped out. Shift at the RPM you want the engine to spin. Safe is 5,200RPM's, but the engine will go more but you can risk damage unless you know the engine has been rebuild with forged parts and it is in good condition.

Pushing forward through the manual side, there are stops so you don't go into the wrong gear. It should only go into neutral in the left side quadrant when you slide the shifter over.

I could not find out on your 3rd gear question, but I believe it will shift down as you get down near 0 MPH, ie slow and near stopping. I never recall keeping it in 3rd and coming to a stop and then taking off again. I would always downshift manually when in that quadrant, or use "D".


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## genenina1 (Nov 16, 2021)

PontiacJim said:


> The manual side of the shifter is just that - manual. It should not shift out of gear until you do. Shifting manual should have a good hard shift if it is the correct TH-400 and not been swapped out. Shift at the RPM you want the engine to spin. Safe is 5,200RPM's, but the engine will go more but you can risk damage unless you know the engine has been rebuild with forged parts and it is in good condition.
> 
> Pushing forward through the manual side, there are stops so you don't go into the wrong gear. It should only go into neutral in the left side quadrant when you slide the shifter over.
> 
> I could not find out on your 3rd gear question, but I believe it will shift down as you get down near 0 MPH, ie slow and near stopping. I never recall keeping it in 3rd and coming to a stop and then taking off again. I would always downshift manually when in that quadrant, or use "D".


Thank you Thank you PontiacJim. That's what I thought. Engine seems to be in good shape. 9 years old. some drag racing but mostly street driving. Push it hard on the RPM's going from 1st thru 3rd. then come to a stop and go back to first before taking off again, or move over to the "hers" side, Neutral then Drive.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

This is where it's nice to have a rev limiter, too. Those shifters are/ were a great advancement, but not perfected! I dont leave home without it!.


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## genenina1 (Nov 16, 2021)

armyadarkness said:


> This is where it's nice to have a rev limiter, too. Those shifters are/ were a great advancement, but not perfected! I dont leave home without it!.


Good point Armyadarkness and Thank You. MDS is set to 5800 RPM's. Pencil Light shift indicator is set to 5700 RPM's.


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## genenina1 (Nov 16, 2021)

genenina1 said:


> Good point Armyadarkness and Thank You. MDS is set to 5800 RPM's. Pencil Light shift indicator is set to 5700 RPM's.


MSD, not MDS.... Can't type


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

The shifter is cool, but not infallible. I use mine very regularly and it's not uncommon to miss a shift... I can usually recover on my own, but I've hit the rev limiter, too.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Mostly on the downshifts


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## genenina1 (Nov 16, 2021)

armyadarkness said:


> Mostly on the downshifts


Wait, so do you downshift from 3rd to 2nd to 1st when slowing down to a stop? If so, at what speed/rpm's. I thought that once you got into 3rd, you just came to a stop, then shifted back down to 1st before taking off again, or over to "D" on the hers side.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

genenina1 said:


> Wait, so do you downshift from 3rd to 2nd to 1st when slowing down to a stop? If so, at what speed/rpm's. I thought that once you got into 3rd, you just came to a stop, then shifted back down to 1st before taking off again, or over to "D" on the hers side.


No, you can shift down just as well. Same deal, when you down shift it will drop down. I was racing a 340 'Cuda in my youth with my '68 GTO with the His/Hers. We were pretty evenly match. Came blowing down a hill and the 'Cuda, which had disc brakes, layed down hard on his brakes to slow (not anything to be mean). The drum brakes on the '68 were no match. I think we were up near 90 MPH. Rather than take out his rear bumper, I dropped the trans down into 2nd to help stop and knew at that speed when I dropped down into 2nd that the engine RPM's were going to be stupid high. I was willing to blow up the engine and lock up the driveline rather than take out the 'Cuda. I never heard a Pontiac scream like that and have no idea what those RPM's were, but it did slow the car and I didn't tag the 'Cuda. I did not have a tach. So when you downshift while over in the right side of the shifter, know that it will downshift and there is no override because the engine RPM's are too high.

To know what speeds to down shift, just watch the speedometer when you upshift. That will give you an idea o f the speeds at which you can down shift.

I used to spin my 400's to 5,700-5,800 RPM's and never had issue, but anything can always happen at higher RPM's. I would not suggest running long distances at those kind of RPM's.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

genenina1 said:


> Wait, so do you downshift from 3rd to 2nd to 1st when slowing down to a stop? If so, at what speed/rpm's. I thought that once you got into 3rd, you just came to a stop, then shifted back down to 1st before taking off again, or over to "D" on the hers side.


There are no set rules, but no, I don't downshift when coming to stop, like you do with a manual. 

Since it's widely accepted that automatics are best for drag, the big drawback to them is the inability to select a gear on demand, when on the street.

If Im cruising at 60 in 3rd and a Mustang pulls up on me, I need to downshift into 2nd. Relying on the electric kickdown of the TH400 would be luck at best. The Hurst His/ Hers has a notch for downshifting into 2nd, just for this reason. However, you're looking at the math of it and I've not found that I have that kind of time, when I need it. Hence the rev limiter.

I know that if Im in 3rd gear going 70, Im right around 3000 rpm's, so I have at least 2000 rpm's of wiggle room. How fast I use them all up, is the real question. I've tried to glance a the tach, but that's an unrealistic "street race" idea. So I mash the throttle, slap it into second, and watch for the shift light or listen for the rev limiter.

BTW, I use this. Very discrete with a built in shift light. And since my car appears stock, it works well.


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## genenina1 (Nov 16, 2021)

You Guys are AWESOME!!!! Thank you Both!!. Semper FI.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> There are no set rules, but no, I don't downshift when coming to stop, like you do with a manual.
> 
> Since it's widely accepted that automatics are best for drag, the big drawback to them is the inability to select a gear on demand, when on the street.
> 
> ...


If you are not manually shifting and have to use the kickdown, then I don't think you have a "GTO" TH-400. Kickdown is when the shifter is in "D". These were built with higher line pressure and the manual shift feature. Here is an article that describes the function of the TH-400. This was in description with the 1969 Pontiac shifter as the His/Hers was last available in 1968 and Pontiac came out with their own version, but it did not have a dual quadrant like the His/Hers - kinda sad to see the His/Hers discontinued as it was another one of those items that made the GTO unique.

"What is interesting is that the article describes how the TH-400 shifter works and you can see the photo of it enclosed. Move the stick around in the single slot gives you normal operation just like any other console automatic. But when you want to get down to serious business, pull the stick all the way back into 1st gear. *Wind it out as far as you want* (or, it 'ain't goin' to shift a gear until you do) and when ready for 2nd gear, slam the stick forward and to the right and you will engage 2nd gear only and not go into 3rd. *Wind out second as far as you want* and when ready for 3rd, pull back on the stick just slightly to feel/hear a click that engages the ratcheting device that puts the shifter into 3rd, then again push the stick forward and to the right to engage 3rd gear. It will not go past 3rd or into neutral."

Here are the transmission codes used by Pontiac. Note the GTO codes:


1965-66389 V8PB389 V8 EXPORTPE421 2+2PC421 HO TRIPOWERPAHEAVY DUTYPH1966389 4 BBLPG1967400 2BBLPB400 4BBLPD400 4BBLPG400 HEAVY DUTYPH400 2BBL GTOPT400 4BBL GTOPS,PX400 FIREBIRD RAM AIRPQ428PC1968400 2BBLPB400 2BBL GTOPT400 4BBLPD400 V8 4bbl. carb. Grand PrixPG400 V8 Ram Air GTO & FirebirdPQ400 V8 4bbl. carb. GTO & Firebird exc. air cond.PX400 V8 HO GTO & Firebird exc. air cond,PX400 V8 4bbl. carb. GTO & Firebird with air cond.PY400 V8 HQ GTO & Firebird with air cond.PY400 V8 & 428 V8 HDPH428 V8 single exh,PA428 V8 4bbl. carb.PC428 V8 HOPC1969350 V8 2bbl. carb. Tempest & FirebirdPV350 V8 HO Tempest & FirebirdPS400 V8 2bbl, carb.PB400 V8 2bbl, carb. GTO & Grand PrixPT400 V8 4bbl. carb. Grand PrixPW400 V8 4bbl. carb. GTO & FirebirdPX,PZ400 V8 Ram Air GTO & FirebirdPQ428 V8 HOPC428 V8 BonnevillePA428 V8 Bonneville PolicePH428 V8 HO Grand PrixPR1970400 V8 PontiacPB400 V8 GTOPy400 V8 Ram Air GTOPID400 V8 Tempest & Grand PrixPT400 V8 4bbl. carb, Grand PrixPW400 V8 2bbl. carb. FirebirdPF400 V8 Sports optionPX400 V8 Ram Air, HOPQ455 V8 exc, HO PontiacPA455 V8 HO PontiacPC455 V8 HD, Police PontiacPH455 V8 HO Tempest & Grand PrixPR1971400 V8 PontiacPB400 V8 PontiacPD400 V8 2bbl. carb. Police & HDPH400 V8 2bbl. carb. LeMans, GTO & FirebirdPT400 V8 4bbl. carb.LeMans, GTO, Firebird & Grand PrixPX400 V8 4bbl. carb. LeMans, GTO & FirebirdPy455 V8 PontiacPA455 V8 PontiacPF455 V8 HO LeMans, GTO, FirebirdPQ455 V8 4bbl, carb, with dual exh. PontiacPC455 V8 4bbl. carb. Police & HDPH455 V8 4bbl. carb. LeMans, GTO & FirebirdPR455 V8 4bbl, carb. LeMans, GTO, Firebird & Grand PrixPW1972350 V8 Pontiac (375)PF400 V8 wagonPA400 V8 2bbl. carb, Pontiac (375)PD400 V8 2bbl. carb. LeMans & FirebirdPT400 V8 4bbl. carb. PontiacPB400 V8 4bbl. carb. LeMans & FirebirdPG400 V8 4‑bbt, carb‑ Grand PrixPX400 V8 & 455 V8 Police & HD PontiacPH455 V8 2bbl. carb, PontiacPA455 V8 PontiacPC455 V8 4bbl. carb. LeMans & Grand PrixPR455 V8 HO LeMans, FirebirdPQ1973350 V8 2bbl. carb. Pontiac (375)PF400 V8 2bbl. carb. Pontiac wagonPA400 V8 2bbl. carb. exc, Pontiac wagon (375)PD400 V8 2bbl. carb. Firebird, LeMans & Grand AmPT400 V8 4bbl. carb. Grand PrixPX400 V8 4bbl. carb. Pontiac OR Trailer TowPA400 V8 4bbl. carb. PontiacPB400 V8 4bbl, carb. Firebird, LeMans & Grand AmPG455 V8 HO Firebird, LeMans & Grand AmPQ455 V8 4bbl, carb, PontiacPC455 V8 4bbl. carb. Police or Trailer TowPH455 V8 4bbl. carb. LeMans, Grand Am & Grand PrixPR455 V8 FirebirdPZ1974350 V8 2bbl. (Pontiac, Calif,) (375)PF400 V8 2bbl. carb. station wagonPA400 V8 2bbl. carb. Pontiac exc. Calif. (375)PD400 V8 2bbl. carb. LeMans & Firebird, exc. Calif.PT400 V8 2bbl. carb. LeMans & Firebird, Calif.PL400 V8 4bbl. carb, Police & HDPA400 V8 4bbl. carb. PontiacPB400 V8 4bbl. carb. LeMans & Firebird, exc. Calif.PG400 V8 4bbl. carb. Grand PrixPX400 V8 4bbl. carb. LeMans & Firebird, Calif.PW455 V8 SD FirebirdPA455 V8 4bbl. carb. PontiacPC455 V8 4bbl. carb, PolicePH455 V8 4bbl. carb. LeMans & Grand PrixPR455 V8 4bbl. carb. FirebirdPZ


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

With regard to the kickdown, I meant that while cruising at 65MPH in "D" and then hoping that simply mashing the throttle would drop you down to 2nd. While in "D" my car tends to kick down when _it_ wants to, not when _I_ want it to.

Off the line, ready to race Im always in the dual gate, but when you're rolling at highway speeds in "D" and a race situation arises, it'd be nice to have the intended automation of the kickdown, work the way that it's supposed to.

Fortunately, the dual gate works going back down trough the gears, the same as it does going up through them... So if you're in D and cruising when the race occurs, then you have to instantaneously let off the gas, go through neutral into the dual gate, and pull down into 2nd gear. It's awkward, but it becomes "2nd nature".


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> With regard to the kickdown, I meant that while cruising at 65MPH in "D" and then hoping that simply mashing the throttle would drop you down to 2nd. While in "D" my car tends to kick down when _it_ wants to, not when _I_ want it to.
> 
> Off the line, ready to race Im always in the dual gate, but when you're rolling at highway speeds in "D" and a race situation arises, it'd be nice to have the intended automation of the kickdown, work the way that it's supposed to.
> 
> Fortunately, the dual gate works going back down trough the gears, the same as it does going up through them... So if you're in D and cruising when the race occurs, then you have to instantaneously let off the gas, go through neutral into the dual gate, and pull down into 2nd gear. It's awkward, but it becomes "2nd nature".



OK. The "D" function and kickdown is based on the vacuum modulator and governor/weights & springs as I am sure you know. I assume they still offer kits for the weights/springs so you could tailor the kickdown speeds. My brother's '68 Bonneville with its 2.56 gears would kick down into 2nd gear at 95 MPH with no problems. (RPM calculator says the engine was spinning 3,083 RPM @ 95 MPH dropping down into 2nd to 4,565 RPM's - and then it would keep on pulling!)


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> OK. The "D" function and kickdown is based on the vacuum modulator and governor/weights & springs as I am sure you know. I assume they still offer kits for the weights/springs so you could tailor the kickdown speeds. My brother's '68 Bonneville with its 2.56 gears would kick down into 2nd gear at 95 MPH with no problems. (RPM calculator says the engine was spinning 3,083 RPM @ 95 MPH dropping down into 2nd to 4,565 RPM's - and then it would keep on pulling!)


Interesting... so what function does the electric kickdown switch handle? That always seems to be the culprit.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> Interesting... so what function does the electric kickdown switch handle? That always seems to be the culprit.


It handles the trans in "D" automatically rather than drop a gear. It will kick down based on the built in limits set by the vacuum modulator/governor weights & springs.

The right side quadrant is used for manual shifting and holds the gear until you grenade the engine - if you want. The left side, "S" & "L", should correspond the same as the right side. If you try it, it should hold the gear the same until you shift. The advantage of the right side is the positive stops when slamming from one gear to the next and don't accidentley slam into a wrong gear or even neutral/reverse like you could using "L" "S" "D".

So the His/Hers is a bit of "promotional gimmic." 1969 went with a Pontiac ratching shifter all in a single quadrant. What looks cooler and more race like, a His/Hers or a single quadrant shifter stick? Getting rid of the His/Hers meant not paying Hurst as a supplier.

Olds still had the Hurst dual gate until 1970.

https://phscollectorcarworld.************/2015/03/hot-options-hurst-dual-gate-his-n-her.html
First pic is the 1964 Hurst His and Hers. Note that the left quadrant has "R" on the bottom base of the shifter. The older hydromatics had "R" reverse on the bottom of the shifter, ie R-L-S-D-N-P. This unit had the "key" which was again more gimmic - just for the guy as the gal wasn't capable of handling such shifting chores, right? LOL It locked the red block-off plate into place so you could not put the shifter into the manly "His" side.

Second pic is the 1970 Olds Hurst


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