# Advice on 400 value



## System (7 mo ago)

My 1970 is a few weeks out from having it's driveline completely updated. Going in is a fresh 428, a rebuilt M20, Yukon LS and 3.55s. I'm doing a CVF serpentine conversion on the 428 along with DUI HEI, DUI 1 wire alternator, Eddy carb, FlowKooler pump, Carter fuel pump, etc. So the 400 that's in the car will be coming out complete from oil pan to air cleaner. She still runs strong although the Quadra Jet and points both need some TLC (or replacement.) I didn't bother after buying the car a couple months back since I knew it would all be updated in short order... The motor has an Edelbrock Performer intake and a mild cam (don't know the specs... just going by the idle). It's not consuming oil or smoking and has 40psi of pressure at idle / 60 under load. Runs cool at 160 (new Griffen rad is helping with this.) The motor also has 6X heads into stock manifolds.

Anyways, the shop I bought the rebuilt trans from is taking my M20 back as a core and giving me decent money for it. Now I'm trying to figure what to ask for the motor? I know it's an unknown so we don't know the condition of the internals... But I'm just trying to figure what it's worth if I pop it on CL or FBM? I'm not looking to squeeze every last penny out of it. I just don't want to scrap or leave behind a decent 400. I haven't looked at the date code or casting number but it's a WT block. Any thoughts or advice on value? Thanks in advance guys...


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## Duff (Jan 12, 2020)

Take a good, long video of the 400 running, be sure to include the gauges, around here that would bring around 2K, maybe more to a guy wanting to match his date code.


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## System (7 mo ago)

Thanks @Duff I have just that video on my phone from this morning. I think I'll take a second while driving too to give a bigger picture. I'm wondering if I should buy a cheap Harbor Freight engine stand so it doesn't look like I just tossed it onto the floor? I'm going to bring it home on a tire in the bed of the truck but that won't look great to a potential buyer when they come to see it in the garage.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

It's not worth anything. Let me cart it away for you, free of charge because we're pals.


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## System (7 mo ago)

LOL, sure thing... 🤣🍻

Hey, where exactly are the date stamp and casting # near the distributor? Is it really hard to see with the motor in the car? I'd like to finish my research on what exactly this 400 is...


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## IceBolt (Jul 28, 2020)

I bid $1 above @armyadarkness


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Wasn't some member looking for a 400 block instead of reworking his 350?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

System said:


> My 1970 is a few weeks out from having it's driveline completely updated. Going in is a fresh 428, a rebuilt M20, Yukon LS and 3.55s. I'm doing a CVF serpentine conversion on the 428 along with DUI HEI, DUI 1 wire alternator, Eddy carb, FlowKooler pump, Carter fuel pump, etc. So the 400 that's in the car will be coming out complete from oil pan to air cleaner. She still runs strong although the Quadra Jet and points both need some TLC (or replacement.) I didn't bother after buying the car a couple months back since I knew it would all be updated in short order... The motor has an Edelbrock Performer intake and a mild cam (don't know the specs... just going by the idle). It's not consuming oil or smoking and has 40psi of pressure at idle / 60 under load. Runs cool at 160 (new Griffen rad is helping with this.) The motor also has 6X heads into stock manifolds.
> 
> Anyways, the shop I bought the rebuilt trans from is taking my M20 back as a core and giving me decent money for it. Now I'm trying to figure what to ask for the motor? I know it's an unknown so we don't know the condition of the internals... But I'm just trying to figure what it's worth if I pop it on CL or FBM? I'm not looking to squeeze every last penny out of it. I just don't want to scrap or leave behind a decent 400. I haven't looked at the date code or casting number but it's a WT block. Any thoughts or advice on value? Thanks in advance guys...


Is an M20 going to up to the task of that motor? Is it getting beefed up?


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## System (7 mo ago)

I believe the M20 will be fine. I think lots of times folks get hung up on ratings. Same happened with my TH350 I had behind a 400 small block in my 69 Camaro back 30 years ago. I had that motor really built and threw a 140 shot of nitrous on top of that. Ran 11's and I beat the snot out of it every weekend on the street. The only thing I ever broke in the driveline was a rebuilt 8.2 GM posi after almost 4 years of this abuse. Now, that's anecdotal evidence and I may grenade this M20. However, after returning the old one to the guy who built the replacement, I'm only out $850. So, if that $850 turns out to be money spent poorly, I'll get on AutoGear's waiting list for a wide ratio M22 and pony up the $2300 they want... I guess time will tell... 🍻


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

My advice would be to try and sell it before you pull it. An engine running in the car will always fetch more than a mystery on a stand. Just noticed you're in MA. Depending on what you decide on the price, I may be interested.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

System said:


> I believe the M20 will be fine. I think lots of times folks get hung up on ratings. Same happened with my TH350 I had behind a 400 small block in my 69 Camaro back 30 years ago. I had that motor really built and threw a 140 shot of nitrous on top of that. Ran 11's and I beat the snot out of it every weekend on the street. The only thing I ever broke in the driveline was a rebuilt 8.2 GM posi after almost 4 years of this abuse. Now, that's anecdotal evidence and I may grenade this M20. However, after returning the old one to the guy who built the replacement, I'm only out $850. So, if that $850 turns out to be money spent poorly, I'll get on AutoGear's waiting list for a wide ratio M22 and pony up the $2300 they want... I guess time will tell... 🍻


I asked Darrin from Nitemare about how long a stock built Muncie (M20) would survive behind the 461 I have in my car now. His take was that it would be fine for a street application. Same with the factory 10 bolt. I've put ~1200 miles since the engine went in the car and the rear and transmission both seem fine. That being said, things could change if I decided to throw some super sticky tires on the back and bring it to the track.


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## System (7 mo ago)

I was thinking that about showing it in the car too @Jared . I just didn't want to do it too soon as I'm still a few weeks out from my swap. I would be happy to show it to you though...

On the M20 and 10 bolt, I agree completely. Mine is not an over the top built motor and I'm not dumping the clutch with drag radials on. When I talked to Mike at Ram clutch, he said that so many guys go strictly by HP ratings and estimates. He said, while that might be safe, it's often completely unnecessary and guys end up with a leg shaker of a clutch because they over bought. He said long before something breaks or the clutch slips, the tires will break loose.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

System said:


> I believe the M20 will be fine. I think lots of times folks get hung up on ratings. Same happened with my TH350 I had behind a 400 small block in my 69 Camaro back 30 years ago. I had that motor really built and threw a 140 shot of nitrous on top of that. Ran 11's and I beat the snot out of it every weekend on the street. The only thing I ever broke in the driveline was a rebuilt 8.2 GM posi after almost 4 years of this abuse. Now, that's anecdotal evidence and I may grenade this M20. However, after returning the old one to the guy who built the replacement, I'm only out $850. So, if that $850 turns out to be money spent poorly, I'll get on AutoGear's waiting list for a wide ratio M22 and pony up the $2300 they want... I guess time will tell... 🍻


Gotcha, and if you don't have big sticky tires and traction it should be ok, you're probably not racing it every weekend either, but if it goes put in the Tremec TKX


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## System (7 mo ago)

Oh, so many ways to spend my money...LOL. Now to get the 400 sold and try to recoup what I've already spent. I'm up to the point where I have about the same into the car as all my current upgrades and mods...


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## System (7 mo ago)

Oh, hey, no one replied to date and casting numbers. Easy to see when still in the car? I took a preliminary look and came up empty but for all I know, I'm looking in the wrong spot....


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

System said:


> Oh, so many ways to spend my money...LOL. Now to get the 400 sold and try to recoup what I've already spent. I'm up to the point where I have about the same into the car as all my current upgrades and mods...


Welcome to the club, you're now an official member, but when you get the high signs going down the road or you mash the go pedal it will all be worth it


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## System (7 mo ago)

It's amazing, I get thumbs up etc. at least once every time I'm out... And often lots more than once...


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

System said:


> I was thinking that about showing it in the car too @Jared . I just didn't want to do it too soon as I'm still a few weeks out from my swap. I would be happy to show it to you though...
> 
> On the M20 and 10 bolt, I agree completely. Mine is not an over the top built motor and I'm not dumping the clutch with drag radials on. When I talked to Mike at Ram clutch, he said that so many guys go strictly by HP ratings and estimates. He said, while that might be safe, it's often completely unnecessary and guys end up with a leg shaker of a clutch because they over bought. He said long before something breaks or the clutch slips, the tires will break loose.


Keep me posted if you don't find someone before it's ready to come out. I'd be looking at this as a potential backup for the future so I'm kind of a bottom feeder on this one. That being said, for the right price I'd help you pull it.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

One way to tell is the large number cast near the distributer. Some year blocks had the year cast in fairly large numbers on the drivers side under the distributer. The numbers are large and face the back of the block. Engine in mine now is from a 1971 and has a large 71 and the one that came out was from 1974, large 74 cast in the same spot. I'm not an expert and am not not sure if this carries to the older engines. Either way, if it's there, you should be able to see it.

Here are a couple more resources to narrow down what you have.









How to identify Pontiac engine blocks - Hagerty Media


Matching those numbers




www.hagerty.com







Pontiac Engine Codes


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## System (7 mo ago)

I have a little angled mirror. I'll go out after dinner and see what I can find.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

IceBolt said:


> I bid $1 above @armyadarkness


Well before you get carried away, I have a sister, a case of Miller, and a fresh sleeve of grilling brats with Wisconsin cheddar to trade, so if you plan on out bidding me, you better go home and reload.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Jared said:


> Keep me posted if you don't find someone before it's ready to come out. I'd be looking at this as a potential backup for the future so I'm kind of a bottom feeder on this one. That being said, for the right price I'd help you pull it.


You're a dirty stinker.


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## Duff (Jan 12, 2020)

Save your $$$, no need for an engine stand, show'em the video and sell it off the floor, or just give it to ARMY!!!!!!!!!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Okay, but seriously, aside from the fact the everyone on Earth knows Im looking for a 400, some arent very good because they were weaker casts, so yes, find out what you have!

That being said, if you're close to someone who wants it, then it's great... but not many people will spend much on an unverified engine, especially if it's far away. There's very little protection or guarantee when buying a used engine, so its a leap of faith for the buyer... better if they know you.


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## System (7 mo ago)

All makes sense and was kind of what I was thinking. Nothing worse than reading, "Ran great when it was pulled!"


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

If you were on the West Coast we'd be talking!

Here is a resource for engine codes:








Engine Codes


Pontiac engines have block code. This code will tell you the year it was to be used. However, these codes were used over from year to year. Together with the casting code and casting date you can determine where what the engine is. Starting in 1965 Pontiac



www.pontiacpower.net





and block casting codes:


https://butlerperformance.com/n-13496-pontiac-block-casting-information.html



With the 1. casting code, 2. casting date and 3. engine code you can determine exactly what engine you have. The VIN (less important unless matching to a car VIN) is located (I think) on the block next to the timing cover on the passenger side.

May as well ID the casting and date of the heads while you are at it as well:


Pontiac V8 Cylinder Heads


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

armyadarkness said:


> You're a dirty stinker.


brother I am closer if noting else.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

System said:


> I have a little angled mirror. I'll go out after dinner and see what I can find.


I use my telescoping dental mirror a bunch 👍


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## System (7 mo ago)

Found my casting number. It's 9790071 which according to Butler's site is a 1969 400. 


https://butlerperformance.com/n-13496-pontiac-block-casting-information.html


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> Well before you get carried away, I have a sister, a case of Miller, and a fresh sleeve of grilling brats with Wisconsin cheddar to trade, so if you plan on out bidding me, you better go home and reload.


What kind of Miller?


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## System (7 mo ago)

Baaad65 said:


> What kind of Miller?


Genuine Draft...


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> Okay, but seriously, aside from the fact the everyone on Earth knows Im looking for a 400, some arent very good because they were weaker casts, so yes, find out what you have!
> 
> That being said, if you're close to someone who wants it, then it's great... but not many people will spend much on an unverified engine, especially if it's far away. There's very little protection or guarantee when buying a used engine, so its a leap of faith for the buyer... better if they know you.


I thought you had a 400 🤔


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> Well before you get carried away, I have a sister, a case of Miller, and a fresh sleeve of grilling brats with Wisconsin cheddar to trade, so if you plan on out bidding me, you better go home and reload.


Can your sister cook?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

System said:


> Genuine Draft...


Bottle or can?


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## System (7 mo ago)

Baaad65 said:


> Bottle or can?


16oz tall boys....


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## System (7 mo ago)

So, now that we know it's a 69 400, how does that affect value?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

System said:


> 16oz tall boys....


I'm a bottle baby...better yet a draft 👍


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

System said:


> So, now that we know it's a 69 400, how does that affect value?


Get the casting date (by the casting number near distr) and 2 letter block code (right under the pass side head).


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> I thought you had a 400 🤔


I do, but I want to build one myself


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> I do, but I want to build one myself


What comes after 75... 76...that's the spirit 😉


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## Drewm (Jul 27, 2021)

System said:


> So, now that we know it's a 69 400, how does that affect value?


Heres a quote from an interesting article that goes into this a little bit:

"With so many 400 and 455 blocks available, what should Car Craft readers search for when seeking a foundation for their big-cube Pontiac V8 build? We took the question to David Butler of Butler Performance in Lawrenceburg, Tennessee, for his professional opinion. He advises, "With the exception of the mid- to late-1970s PN 500557 casting, we consider all Pontiac 400 blocks functionally identical. The 455 blocks from 1970 to 1976 are also functionally identical. Core shift can vary run to run, so we check every block casting individually before using it in any application, but we have found that no one 400 or 455 block is better than another beyond the well-known issues with the 500557."

Heres the full article:

Click here!!

Not sure if this really answers your question, but it is good reading...


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Baaad65 said:


> Wasn't some member looking for a 400 block instead of reworking his 350?


Yes can't remember who it was though


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## System (7 mo ago)

ylwgto said:


> Get the casting date (by the casting number near distr) and 2 letter block code (right under the pass side head).


It's a WT block. What is the additional need for a casting date if I already know it's a 1969? To determine if it was used in a 1969 vs. 1970? Just went and checked. I can make out E for May and 23 for the day of the month but the last one has me stumped. It doesn't look like a 9 for 1969.... more like a 2 or an 8. (Closer to an 8 under a magnifying glass..) However, the casting code says it is a 69 so I'm not sure what to make of it.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

Looks like you got a ‘68 400, 360hp from a manual car. That casting code was used 68-69. Nice engine.

what heads are on it?


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## System (7 mo ago)

ylwgto said:


> Looks like you got a ‘68 400, 360hp from a manual car. That casting code was used 68-69. Nice engine.
> 
> what heads are on it?


6X heads. Interesting about the casting code. I didn't look past 69 so I didn't realize it was the same code as 68... Thanks for that!


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## Sick467 (Oct 29, 2019)

Seeing someone ( *System *) getting ready to sell their 400 engine makes me wish I could buy it. I'd buy them all if I could. Poor orphan 400's.

Being in the "good years" for the block and 6X heads being a good candidate for a pump gas engine. You have a nice start for someone wanting to build a good motor. Cant' say much about what they go for. Let the sister trading begin...


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## System (7 mo ago)

You guys are making me want to keep it! LOL....


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

System said:


> You guys are making me want to keep it! LOL....


If you have the space, it may not be a bad idea. A buildable core is pretty hard to find. Yours being a runner is an added bonus. If you go this route, be sure to prep it for storage so it's still good should you need it. A little oil in each plug hole, make sure it's completely drained out, and then tape up any openings to keep rodents out. Easy enough to replace gaskets when/if you need it.


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## System (7 mo ago)

It's a fine plan but I'd really like to recover the money @Jared. I may kick myself one day but right now the mission creep that's already happened in 2 months of ownership is just unreal....

Plus tonight Christine did no behave herself. I noticed a while back that she only had 2 bolts in the door hinges on the door side. One upper and one lower. Both driver and passenger side were the same. Today a set of hinge bolts came in the mail so I figured hey, it's 85 in the garage with 85% humidity and I've already showered and put on nice clothes for the day but... how hard can it be to add a 4 bolts to each door right? Needless to say, my clothes are in the laundry and I just got out of shower two... and I only added 4 of the 8 missing bolts... and scratched the driver side door with some miss adjustment on try number 397.... So, she is on the naughty list tonight.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

System said:


> It's a fine plan but I'd really like to recover the money @Jared. I may kick myself one day but right now the mission creep that's already happened in 2 months of ownership is just unreal....
> 
> Plus tonight Christine did no behave herself. I noticed a while back that she only had 2 bolts in the door hinges on the door side. One upper and one lower. Both driver and passenger side were the same. Today a set of hinge bolts came in the mail so I figured hey, it's 85 in the garage with 85% humidity and I've already showered and put on nice clothes for the day but... how hard can it be to add a 4 bolts to each door right? Needless to say, my clothes are in the laundry and I just got out of shower two... and I only added 4 of the 8 missing bolts... and scratched the driver side door with some miss adjustment on try number 397.... So, she is on the naughty list tonight.


Better get used to this sort of thing. I've owned mine for 10 years now and it's spent way more time on stands than actually moving under it's own power. To add to the equation, Pontiacs are expensive to build and parts availability can be a bit frustrating. I ran into your mission creep when I did my engine a couple years ago. Started with a short block, priced out heads, and set what I thought was a very reasonable estimate for cost. Then the "while I'm in there" and "I didn't realize I'd need this" set in and I went a few thousand $ over budget. By the time I was done, the only parts I reused from the old engine was the bell housing, alternator, power steering pump, fan, brackets, and the pulleys. 

Free advice on your car would be to give it a very fine tooth comb look over to see what else the PO didn't put together properly. Missing hinge hardware is a concern and not just for what you found. I would be wondering what else they didn't reassemble properly.


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## System (7 mo ago)

They didn't put all the hinge bolts in correctly because it makes the door harder to square up. That is what took me so long last night. Yes, there is plenty of things that are wrong with the car and yes, there is a lot of "while we are in there" going on but I'm having a (mostly) good time. I could have just bought a modern Camaro or Challenger and called it a day but that's not what I (we) wanted. Since my 69 Camaro I've owned any number of sports cars, ATVs, Sleds, RVs, a boat, PWC, etc. I had been purposely putting off skinning my knuckles again for as long as possible and part of me thought it would never happen again. But the wife pushed and I jumped and here we are. Right back were I was at 19 with that POS Camaro... starting from scratch...

I think the thing of it is for me is... I'm a very particular person. I am not starting from scratch because I'm trying to save money. I know all too well that it costs more to build than to buy. But for me it comes down to personalization. I didn't want a numbers matching car that was done or even a restomod done to someone else's taste. I wanted my car. (Kind of like building a house vs. buying one.) Because of this, I'll have nights like last night but in the end, that's what I signed up for and hopefully the end result will be worth the price of admission... 🍻


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

System said:


> You guys are making me want to keep it! LOL....


It's a better engine/block than a 428-455. Much stronger mains and better integrity. The only Pontiac block that is stronger is the '59-'63 389 block.

You basically have the best 400 block Pontiac made....best iron, highest nickel content, best casting, and best machining. (1967--74 blocks)

The big journal 421-428-455 blocks have rear main seal issues and crank journal/main saddle issues at RPM. 

I would much rather run a 400 or a stroked 400 block. I've been driving these cars for the past 45-ish years steadily. YMMV.


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## System (7 mo ago)

Sooooo.... I've gotten a ton of great info in this thread but the one thing that keeps being left out (other than the 2k suggestion on page one) is the reason I started the thread... A listing price... 🍻


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

System said:


> They didn't put all the hinge bolts in correctly because it makes the door harder to square up. That is what took me so long last night. Yes, there is plenty of things that are wrong with the car and yes, there is a lot of "while we are in there" going on but I'm having a (mostly) good time. I could have just bought a modern Camaro or Challenger and called it a day but that's not what I (we) wanted. Since my 69 Camaro I've owned any number of sports cars, ATVs, Sleds, RVs, a boat, PWC, etc. I had been purposely putting off skinning my knuckles again for as long as possible and part of me thought it would never happen again. But the wife pushed and I jumped and here we are. Right back were I was at 19 with that POS Camaro... starting from scratch...
> 
> I think the thing of it is for me is... I'm a very particular person. I am not starting from scratch because I'm trying to save money. I know all too well that it costs more to build than to buy. But for me it comes down to personalization. I didn't want a numbers matching car that was done or even a restomod done to someone else's taste. I wanted my car. (Kind of like building a house vs. buying one.) Because of this, I'll have nights like last night but in the end, that's what I signed up for and hopefully the end result will be worth the price of admission... 🍻


Preaching to the choir, sounds exactly like my story but less toys. I sold my two goats for a nice downpayment on a house and put the thought of cars away and also thought I would never have one again. We put our time and money into kids and our dream of buying property and building our dream house before our oldest started school...mission accomplished but then it was doing everything to the house by myself i.e. landscaping, patio, finish basement, build bar...for medicinal purposes 😉 Then the dreaded college tuition of two which strapped us for 6 years, but I never lost the bug. I would look at cars sometimes and freak out at the prices and thought I'll never have one, I would feel selfish spending that much on me but I married an angel that said go for it once the last tuition bill was paid, then I found this car exactly 30 years from selling my first two. She said you gave up the cars you built and loved for us and put everything into the house and kids...but I still wasn't sure and almost got sick when I won the bid ! Little did I nor her know it was just the entrance to the rabbit hole 😀


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

System said:


> Sooooo.... I've gotten a ton of great info in this thread but the one thing that keeps being left out (other than the 2k suggestion on page one) is the reason I started the thread... A listing price... 🍻


I think $1000--$1500 is a solid price for a core 400 of this vintage.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I'll add: there is a person in this forum who just today posted that they are in need of a buildable 400 engine.


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## System (7 mo ago)

geeteeohguy said:


> I think $1000--$1500 is a solid price for a core 400 of this vintage.


Does the fact that it's complete from pan to air cleaner with all accessories/brackets/pulleys and the fact that it's currently running help?


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## System (7 mo ago)

geeteeohguy said:


> I'll add: there is a person in this forum who just today posted that they are in need of a buildable 400 engine.


Saw that...


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## System (7 mo ago)

Baaad65 said:


> Preaching to the choir, sounds exactly like my story but less toys. I sold my two goats for a nice downpayment on a house and put the thought of cars away and also thought I would never have one again. We put our time and money into kids and our dream of buying property and building our dream house before our oldest started school...mission accomplished but then it was doing everything to the house by myself i.e. landscaping, patio, finish basement, build bar...for medicinal purposes 😉 Then the dreaded college tuition of two which strapped us for 6 years, but I never lost the bug. I would look at cars sometimes and freak out at the prices and thought I'll never have one, I would feel selfish spending that much on me but I married an angel that said go for it once the last tuition bill was paid, then I found this car. She said you gave up the cars you built and loved for us and put everything into the house and kids...but I still wasn't sure and almost got sick when I won the bid ! Little did I nor her know it was just the entrance to the rabbit hole 😀


We had been looking on the Chevy side of things casually for a bit but the prices were just too high. Then I started to notice something. The exact same car in the same condition in the same model year in Pontiac form was about 1/2 to 2/3 the price. So, compare a GTO to a Chevelle SS or a Firebird to a Camaro and the savings was substantial. Unfortunately, as you all know, the parts to build could be the opposite and cost twice as much.... but you still come out a bit cheaper in the end and have something more unique. I'm happy with our decision... Plus I got to meet (virtually) all of you fine folks... 🍻

We did end up selling a few toys after the GTO came home. We had a pair of CanAm Spyders that got used little and once the car got here, the dust started piling up on them. So, it was time.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

System said:


> Does the fact that it's complete from pan to air cleaner with all accessories/brackets/pulleys and the fact that it's currently running help?


Like I previously mentioned I must have found a sucker or a guy with money because I got 2300.00 for a 1970 small valve head 455 with a rod knock! It included the p/s, alternator, pulleys, flywheel with worn clutch, a Chinese HEI dist, new stock chrome vc's but no carb and some more parts but stilll.


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

geeteeohguy said:


> It's a better engine/block than a 428-455. Much stronger mains and better integrity. The only Pontiac block that is stronger is the '59-'63 389 block.
> 
> You basically have the best 400 block Pontiac made....best iron, highest nickel content, best casting, and best machining. (1967--74 blocks)
> 
> ...


Now I know why army is wanting one to build ! 😂😂


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## System (7 mo ago)

I guess the 2k mentioned by @Duff on the first page is a good place to go out based on all I'm seeing. Something is worth what the local market will bare. If it's fair, someone will jump. If not, I'll get the message and adjust. You can always adjust down if need be but can never go up... Oh, and just remembered... It will come with both a flywheel and a flex plate.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

2k is more than I would pay but someone else is likely to pay that price. You have a very desirable engine for a build. Considering the skyrocketing costs of our 'build back better' economy, 2k is not outrageous at all, IMO. It would be a win/win for you and the buyer. So would $1500. GLWS.


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## System (7 mo ago)

geeteeohguy said:


> 2k is more than I would pay but someone else is likely to pay that price. You have a very desirable engine for a build. Considering the skyrocketing costs of our 'build back better' economy, 2k is not outrageous at all, IMO. It would be a win/win for you and the buyer. So would $1500. GLWS.


Thank you very much for all your insight. Will see what happens in a few weeks when the 400 comes out and comes home. I've already worked up a draft on FB marketplace and have taken photos and videos.


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## Sick467 (Oct 29, 2019)

I'd price it high and hope for "that person" who really wants that year/numbered block. If you don't find that buyer you get to keep it and never feel bad you sold it for less than you could have. Did I mention you may get to keep it. I'd keep it, hands down.

If my 67 born with block would be junk...I'd pay $1000 more for the right month and year numbered running engine assembly compared to one that was just close. Even if I just needed a block. All the extra parts are great to have as spares or sell them off piecemeal and make most of the money back.

If you think a good price is around $2K, start at $3K. This gives you room to haggle, keeps the tire kickers at bay, and a good running engine carries some extra weight.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

System said:


> Does the fact that it's complete from pan to air cleaner with all accessories/brackets/pulleys and the fact that it's currently running help?


How many miles on the engine?

Has it been rebuilt?

How many miles on the rebuild?

Who/what shop rebuilt it?

Receipts?

Oil pressure at idle and 2,600 RPM's?

Compression test of all cylinders?

Do you guarantee it against any cracks in the heads or block if it gets taken to a machine shop for magnafluxing/rebuilding?

Do you guarantee the engine if I just drop it in my car and use it like that?

Depending on your answers, price between $900.00 for a builder - no guarantee; up to $1,800.00 drop in as is and guarantee.

The shortblock may be of value to someone wanting a WT block along with the May build month. The heads would not be of interest to the.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Forgive me but I went back to the beginning of your thread but don't see anything, why did you have a 428 built instead building/stroking the 400 that you're going to sell ?


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## Drewm (Jul 27, 2021)

FWIW, I paid $500 for a (poorly) running standard bore 1973 400. Complete motor, but I only wanted the block. This was about 8 months ago. If someone wants that particular date or casting code, then it would be worth more to them. If they are just looking for a builder, then less.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

geeteeohguy said:


> It's a better engine/block than a 428-455. Much stronger mains and better integrity. The only Pontiac block that is stronger is the '59-'63 389 block.
> 
> You basically have the best 400 block Pontiac made....best iron, highest nickel content, best casting, and best machining. (1967--74 blocks)
> 
> ...



It's a better engine/block than a 428-455. Much stronger mains and better integrity. The only Pontiac block that is stronger is the '59-'63 389 block.

PJ: Wrong. 389CI 425A 4-bolt main, SD 421 4-bolt main, 428 4-bolt main, 455- 4-bolt main, RA IV 400 4-bolt main, SD 455 4-bolt main.

Any block is only as good as the build and how it is used. If you take a stock 455 from grandma's car which only has a factory oil pump pressure of 40 PSI and you proceed to hammer on the engine pushing past that 5,000 RPM line, the engine damage is not because it was a weak block or had larger main journals. Pontiac actually cross drilled the 455 cranks to supply constant oil to the rod bearings - but you have to have enough oil flow and pressure when you start using grandma's engine like a race engine. The 428 4-bolt main bored to 440CI was one of the best race engines - more cubes than the 400CI and it would spin more RPM's than a 455.

The big journal 421-428-455 blocks have rear main seal issues and crank journal/main saddle issues at RPM. 

PJ: Wrong. Seal issues can mostly be attributed to rebuilds (including 400's) using the 2-pc or 1 piece aftermarket viton seal, rebuilds where align boring has altered the rear seal main cap causing it to become more oval than round - but can be correct by a good machine shop, and later production 455's that may have had the rear main cap incorrectly machined according to a Pontiac dealer bulletin.

Very little difference in a stroker 400 or a 455, nearly the same stroke and a small difference in bore. In a low rpm street engine the smaller mains won't really help enough to be noticeable. You can find a 400 much easier than a 455. In Either case you want to use light pistons, rods, and pins, and good oil pump/pan and they will both live long miles.

The 400 blocks are said to be a little stronger with 1/8" more meat in the block, around the mains, and the main cap thickness. Add a set of ARP main cap studs or aftermarket 4-bolt main caps to a 455 and I see a stronger bottom end than a stock 2-bolt main 400. Apples to Oranges here. 
Each cubic engine has its limits and each can be damaged/blown up in stock form when these limits are exceeded. Each cubic inch engine can be built to perform beyond the stock configuration by using correctly designed and matched aftermarket parts intended for HP/Race use. Any build has to be looked at realistically and the builder/owner has to know the limits of that build even when they invest 10's of thousands of dollars.


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## System (7 mo ago)

PontiacJim said:


> How many miles on the engine?
> 
> Has it been rebuilt?
> 
> ...



Jim, as you probably know, I just bought the car a couple months ago and honestly can't answer most of those questions. The previous owner also didn't have that info as he sold it the way he bought it in 2012. He bought it with intention of doing what I'm doing but never had the time. I saw his annual inspection receipts that listed his mileage. He basically took it to get a sticker once a year and back in the barn it went. Perhaps you're trying to point out the questions a potential buyer might ask?

As to the ones I can answer... I have not done a compression test but will probably do that before pulling the motor. Oil pressure at 2600 is 60. On the the guarantee, no, of course I can't guarantee anything... nor would I even if I could. It's a used motor and someone could throw nitrous on it and/or over rev it on day one and blow it up. That's just one scenario out of many that I can think of but you get my drift. All I know is I've been driving it almost daily since I bought it and other than the carb and ignition needing tuned, I've had no issues.


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## System (7 mo ago)

Baaad65 said:


> Forgive me but I went back to the beginning of your thread but don't see anything, why did you have a 428 built instead building/stroking the 400 that you're going to sell ?


My original plan when I bought the car a couple months ago was to (over)build the 400 that's in it. So, I got to putting together a dream parts list and getting everything in my cart(s) to order. First reality check was something mentioned a few posts back. The cost. Holy lord was it adding up quick vs. a SBC build. However, that wasn't insurmountable. Availability was. Roller cams are near impossible to find and they are indefinitely backordered from most companies I was considering. To have a back order date is one thing but to be told over and over again that they couldn't even give me an estimate was unsettling. Then aluminum heads. Kauffman is out 4 months. Edelbrock is out til late December too. And that's where the short list ended. So, in lamenting my situation with my machine shop / engine builder, the owner asked me a question that took me off guard. He said, hey, if you don't want to wait until spring, would you consider a built 428? I asked why? He said he had built one for a customer right when Covid started. The guy provided the engine and many parts. He then did all the work and supplied the remaining internals and built the motor. He called and left a message that the motor was done. He called again once a month for a year. Then once every 6 months for the next year and a half. He never found an obituary or anything but assumes the gentleman passed away. So, after a couple of years of his money and shop space tied up, he's decided to sell it. At first I was reluctant as I wanted my motor exactly the way I wanted. But then I got to thinking about 2 things... "Exactly the way I want" would cost me 3 times as much and I'd be waiting to do it til next year. Having the attention span of the average gnat, I dropped a deposit on the 428 along with a few parts to make it my own and we're off. The builder wants to run it in on his stand before I pick it up and the shop doing the R&R is out a couple of weeks so that's as long as I have to wait as opposed to 2023. So, that's how I ended up with a 428...


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Ah ok, makes sense and maybe I missed that. When my motor went south I had sticker shock too, if I wanted 500hp it was around 15k and that was in 2018! So when I saw this Butler 461 on ebay for 8k ( negotiated it down to 7500.00) with receipts and dyno sheet I jumped on it. I feel very fortunate to have found it, right time right place 👍


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## System (7 mo ago)

Holy!!!! That's a steal! Congrats on that find man... I was looking at a full Butler build too but that was pushing 20k. I got the 428 for 5k. No, it's not a 600+HP monster but that other 15k can paint the car at some point... Or buy that square body GMC the wife keeps asking for...


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I'm sorry, Jim. I apologize for being wrong. 

Jeff


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

"You don't tug on Superman's cape.....you don't spit into the wind....you don't pull the mask off of old Lone Ranger 
and you don't mess around with Jim!"-------James Croce


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

System said:


> Holy!!!! That's a steal! Congrats on that find man... I was looking at a full Butler build too but that was pushing 20k. I got the 428 for 5k. No, it's not a 600+HP monster but that other 15k can paint the car at some point... Or buy that square body GMC the wife keeps asking for...


You got it, it dynoed at 472hp 526tq and the guy decided he wanted 600hp for his Firebird and didn't install it. I changed out the intake to a Performer RPM, put an 850 Quickfuel and 1.65 rockers so maybe I'm close to 500hp and believe me it's scary enough. I have big drag radials and lift bars but still can't keep it straight. Big numbers always sound good at the car shows and I'm guilty somewhat but I'm perfectly happy with it.....unless it doesn't perfom well at the track 🤣 I also had to put a ton of money into the driveline to support 500hp like a 3K trans, 500.00 driveshaft a 2100.00 rear end. So down the rabbit hole deeper and deeper...my wife works 32 hrs a week and tells everyone it's for my car....I plead guilty your honor and hope the court has mercy on me.


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## System (7 mo ago)

Sounds like our wives are similar. Mine says... "Everyone always thinks we have money because of all we spend... If we're so rich, how come I have to work so much?"


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Exactly, and up until the last few years when my back went out I did everything myself on the house, neighbors would spend 50k on there basements or paver sidewalks but maybe that's why my back is not great so I have to start writing checks now. Also we were smart with our money and didn't live beyond our means since we've known each other but people don't see that and we've lost friends over it. You mentioned the Ford your wife wants I think you should suprise her with it trust me. I felt so guilty I found her a 2013 purple Challenger that she has dreamed about for a Christmas suprise. I call it the purple IRA but I have no more guilt and I have never seen her so happy and cry so much, not even at our wedding 😄 of course there's the shoes and close that come every week...and a few diamonds and the beach once a year but I'm sure I'm still ahead 😉 Well I've certainly derailed this thread, sorry.


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## System (7 mo ago)

Nah, it's all good man. Sounds like we are both lucky men. I am extra blessed as my wife is into the things I am into. When brown santa brings cardboard boxes to the door she demands to know what's in them. Not because she didn't approve the purchase but because she's as into the build as I am.

As to the truck, it's on the list. I keep scrolling through FB nightly trying to find a second "barn find...."


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)




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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

System said:


> Jim, as you probably know, I just bought the car a couple months ago and honestly can't answer most of those questions. The previous owner also didn't have that info as he sold it the way he bought it in 2012. He bought it with intention of doing what I'm doing but never had the time. I saw his annual inspection receipts that listed his mileage. He basically took it to get a sticker once a year and back in the barn it went. Perhaps you're trying to point out the questions a potential buyer might ask?
> 
> As to the ones I can answer... I have not done a compression test but will probably do that before pulling the motor. Oil pressure at 2600 is 60. On the the guarantee, no, of course I can't guarantee anything... nor would I even if I could. It's a used motor and someone could throw nitrous on it and/or over rev it on day one and blow it up. That's just one scenario out of many that I can think of but you get my drift. All I know is I've been driving it almost daily since I bought it and other than the carb and ignition needing tuned, I've had no issues.



Yes, pointing out potential questions someone might ask about the engine. Answers may or may not help to boost resale price so you can get the most out of it.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

geeteeohguy said:


> I'm sorry, Jim. I apologize for being wrong.
> 
> Jeff


No apology needed. Just get out of the 1980's and up to speed with the new millenium and all the available speed parts of today that were not available back then, or at really high costs to most of us. Maybe with all these issues you speak of is why many are going to the LS swap.

Read the page post, saw nothing to the advantage in using a 400 block over the 455 except for the mention of "thin" cylinder walls - which can happen to ANY block if there is core shift or rust/pitting in the coolant side of the cylinders. Shouldn't every 50 year old block be sonic tested before you put 8k-10k-12k into it? Even stated no problem with the larger journals unless going over 6,500 RPM's - who plans on building any engine for the street to consistently hit that number, that is a race engine, not a street engine.

Note that much of the improvements are based on weight - or removing it. Today it is easy enough to get lightweight forged pistons/tool steel pins and light weight forged rods. Want to get the engine to rev quicker? Install an aluminum flywheel and 4.88 gears. 

David Butler stated, "Core shift can vary run to run, so we check every block casting individually before using it in any application, *but we have found that no one 400 or 455 block is better than another *beyond the well-known issues with the 500557."

Any Pontiac block has limits as the Pontiac engineers did not design the "everyday" engine to be used for big HP race engines. When they did, then the engineers designed the parts to handle the race use - forged parts, 4-bolt main blocks, special flowing heads & valve train, special carbs, beefed blocks, solid lifters, high volume/pressure oil pumps, just like all the other manufacturers did.

The 455's larger journal size could not have been too much of a concern to the engineers. Seems their concern was more in way of handling the torque they produce - so in went the M-22 and the Chevy 12-bolt so those parts that held up behind a 400CI would not break behind the 455.

Some blocks can accept a larger overbore, other's can't - but you won't really know unless you sonic test the block. Some swear by it, others don't do it. Some swear by honing plates, other's don't. Some swear by hard-block, other's don't. There are no absolute statements or guarantees when it comes to engines and engine builds, only possibilities, all of which can typically be checked or verified - and then there is Murphy's Law.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

I'm thinking Baaad's sale price is a good indicator on what you can expect to ask and possibly get. Maybe Pontiac blocks/engines/buildable cores are plentiful elsewhere, but they are scarce in New England. When mine grenaded a couple years ago I didn't think the engine coming out was rebuildable (after disassembly I think it may be so it's sitting wrapped in a corner now). I started out looking for a good core locally. The only engines that came up over the course of a 2 month search were two that looked like they had sat outside for 30 years and were priced close to $2000. I'd try to sell it running in the car and ask around $3k or so. If you think you're a month out, try selling it now and negotiate that it stays in the car until you have the other engine ready to go in.


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## System (7 mo ago)

Interesting point about location being a factor @Jared. Thanks for the input.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

System said:


> It's a fine plan but I'd really like to recover the money @Jared. I may kick myself one day but right now the mission creep that's already happened in 2 months of ownership is just unreal....
> 
> Plus tonight Christine did no behave herself. I noticed a while back that she only had 2 bolts in the door hinges on the door side. One upper and one lower. Both driver and passenger side were the same. Today a set of hinge bolts came in the mail so I figured hey, it's 85 in the garage with 85% humidity and I've already showered and put on nice clothes for the day but... how hard can it be to add a 4 bolts to each door right? Needless to say, my clothes are in the laundry and I just got out of shower two... and I only added 4 of the 8 missing bolts... and scratched the driver side door with some miss adjustment on try number 397.... So, she is on the naughty list tonight.


The projects will NEVER end. 

Replace the modulator, it's defective and fails the next day
Replace the rear brakes, wash the car and discover that one of the new wheel cylinders is leaking
Hit a bump, hear a rattle, find a bolt missing
Swap the trans, the power steering box goes the next day
Replace the tires, need a new carb.
People on the street are so enchanted when they see these old cars, but when you own one, it's no mystery why they're all off the road.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

System said:


> Sooooo.... I've gotten a ton of great info in this thread but the one thing that keeps being left out (other than the 2k suggestion on page one) is the reason I started the thread... A listing price... 🍻


Well, it is the internet. You're lucky no one told you to buy a Ford instead.


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## System (7 mo ago)

armyadarkness said:


> Well, it is the internet. You're lucky no one told you to buy a Ford instead.



I have a Ford already...


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

System said:


> Does the fact that it's complete from pan to air cleaner with all accessories/brackets/pulleys and the fact that it's currently running help?


Yes. And as much as I'd love to have it, it's probably worth a lot more than a casual buyer would pay. If it's a running, complete, 360 HP, I'd put it up for at least $2000, and then go from there.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

System said:


> I have a Ford already...


In that case, why do you have a Ford and a GM. You just broke the internet.


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## Drewm (Jul 27, 2021)

System said:


> Interesting point about location being a factor @Jared. Thanks for the input.


I see several pontiac 400 motors on facebook marketplace within 100 miles of Massachusetts for anywhere from $400 to $1800. One on there for $500 looks complete. 

400 pontiac


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> Like I previously mentioned I must have found a sucker or a guy with money because I got 2300.00 for a 1970 small valve head 455 with a rod knock! It included the p/s, alternator, pulleys, flywheel with worn clutch, a Chinese HEI dist, new stock chrome vc's but no carb and some more parts but stilll.
> View attachment 156232
> View attachment 156233


A lo of that has to do with all of these classic car dealers that are popping up. They need running Pontiac engines for their piece mealed frankenstein cars. They'll repaint it and it'll add $10k to their selling price.


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## System (7 mo ago)

armyadarkness said:


> In that case, why do you have a Ford and a GM. You just broke the internet.


Not much of a fan of the looks of GMC or Chevy trucks since the square body. Oh, the wife drives a Grand Cherokee so we have all 3 brands covered... 😬


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## System (7 mo ago)

Drewm said:


> I see several pontiac 400 motors on facebook marketplace within 100 miles of Massachusetts for anywhere from $400 to $1800. One on there for $500 looks complete.
> 
> 400 pontiac


I just ran the same search and none are as complete as mine. That one isn't and it looks like it just got pulled out of the woods... But who knows. Could be a fine motor.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Bopman said:


> Now I know why army is wanting one to build ! 😂😂


Truth be told, when you have a 55 year old car that you drive weekly, having a spare engine is always a good idea. 

Ive been and engine to build as a winter work bench project for more than 20 years... but Ive always looked for Chevy 283's and straight 6's, which I love. A few years back, I expanded my search to Pontiacs, but most of the ones I see in the East are terribly neglected and over priced... and since I have no urgency, I just keep looking.

I picked up a 327/ 360 hp last week, so if I don't get a Pontiac, then that'll be my project. It'll be a nice backup if I ever needed an engine while mine was being rebuilt.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

System said:


> I guess the 2k mentioned by @Duff on the first page is a good place to go out based on all I'm seeing. Something is worth what the local market will bare. If it's fair, someone will jump. If not, I'll get the message and adjust. You can always adjust down if need be but can never go up... Oh, and just remembered... It will come with both a flywheel and a flex plate.


Exactly! The more I read, the more I think I'd lean toward $3000 and work my way down.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

System said:


> Thank you very much for all your insight. Will see what happens in a few weeks when the 400 comes out and comes home. I've already worked up a draft on FB marketplace and have taken photos and videos.


Most of the cores-of-unkown-origin I see are selling for $1000, and they're all leaps pf faith. You don't have to sell this a rebuildable core. It's running.


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## Drewm (Jul 27, 2021)

System said:


> I just ran the same search and none are as complete as mine. That one isn't and it looks like it just got pulled out of the woods... But who knows. Could be a fine motor.


I wasn't inferring that any of those motors were better or worse than the one you have. Only that there is a big $$$ gap in what people are asking. When I bought mine, I only wanted to stay away from the 557 block. If I needed a more correct engine block, no doubt it would have been significantly more money. Good luck selling.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

geeteeohguy said:


> "You don't tug on Superman's cape.....you don't spit into the wind....you don't pull the mask off of old Lone Ranger
> and you don't mess around with Jim!"-------James Croce


Well, my name is Jim, and I'm an idiot, so whenever you wish to be right in a conversation, I'm available in the evenings, M-F


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

System said:


> Interesting point about location being a factor @Jared. Thanks for the input.


Location is the biggest factor. Even with the car itself. If a guy in Sweden wants your car for $75k, what good is that?


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## System (7 mo ago)

armyadarkness said:


> Location is the biggest factor. Even with the car itself. If a guy in Sweden wants your car for $75k, what good is that?


If he wants to pay for shipping, we've got a deal...


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

System said:


> Not much of a fan of the looks of GMC or Chevy trucks since the square body. Oh, the wife drives a Grand Cherokee so we have all 3 brands covered... 😬


Only three name plates covered? You've got some work to do. Between the wife, my kids, storing a car for my dad, and my fleet of junk we have 6 different makes of cars at the house with each decade between now and the 1970s represented. Chevy wins with the most at 3.


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## System (7 mo ago)

Jared said:


> Only three name plates covered? You've got some work to do. Between the wife, my kids, storing a car for my dad, and my fleet of junk we have 6 different makes of cars at the house with each decade between now and the 1970s represented. Chevy wins with the most at 3.


Well, if I can add off road to the mix then my count goes up. Polaris (x2), SkiDoo (x2), CFMOTO, and a ProLine trailer to move it all throughout the various seasons. We had CanAm Spyders and and a SXS but those got sold in the last year. The Regal boat sold back in 2015 I think. We were big into RVing and had 4 different ones in the last 15 years with the last being a monster XLR toy hauler. 44.5' long, 13'4" tall and 8.5' wide with a 21k GVWR. That's why we still have the Ford F350. I could sell it and go to a 150 for the enclosed trailer and to move our dump trailer when needed but I'd end up paying more for less truck so the SD stays. Something always seems to be getting bought and sold around here though. If you told me a year ago that the Spyders would be gone and there would be a GTO in the garage, I wouldn't believe you.... LOL


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

armyadarkness said:


> Truth be told, when you have a 55 year old car that you drive weekly, having a spare engine is always a good idea.
> 
> Ive been and engine to build as a winter work bench project for more than 20 years... but Ive always looked for Chevy 283's and straight 6's, which I love. A few years back, I expanded my search to Pontiacs, but most of the ones I see in the East are terribly neglected and over priced... and since I have no urgency, I just keep looking.
> 
> I picked up a 327/ 360 hp last week, so if I don't get a Pontiac, then that'll be my project. It'll be a nice backup if I ever needed an engine while mine was being rebuilt.


I have 2 350's and 2 455's buicks and just got rid of a 389 and 2 400 Pontiacs last fall and have a 350 sbc marine and sold a 403 olds this spring !!! Will look for some 400 Pontiacs as I know several derby car guys around here pretty good.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Yeah... Im looking at a KLR650, and I'm trying to talk myself out of it... but if this pandemic-economy doesnt turn around soon, a $150 dual sport payment, trumps the $150 a week that we spend on dinner and drinks.


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Jared said:


> Only three name plates covered? You've got some work to do. Between the wife, my kids, storing a car for my dad, and my fleet of junk we have 6 different makes of cars at the house with each decade between now and the 1970s represented. Chevy wins with the most at 3.


Pontiac, Buick Dodge Plymout Ford and AMC sitting in my yard ! With 2 foreigners !
😂😂


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Sweet! I actually forgot about the trailer so make that 7 different makes. We have a strange mix here. My oldest is an import car guy. Some are turned off by this but he has a lot of wrench time on some of his cars.

1970 LeMans Sport
1981 Corvette (dad's)
1994 Mustang GT (running crappy right now, needs work)
2002 Miata (oldest son)
2008 Cobalt (younger son)
2018 Hyundai Elantra GT Sport (oldest son)
2019 Honda Fit (wife)
2020 Colorado RST
Big Tex car hauler

My garage only holds 2 cars so my driveway looks like I'm running a used car lot.

We have fallen far away from valuing @System 's engine for him.


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## System (7 mo ago)

I've got my FB listing written up with some pics. I guess I could start it at $2500 and see what happens. I'd like to take a better video than the one I have. It's fine but I can hear fan noise more than the engine.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

My take on the small journal blocks is indeed from past experience in the 1970's and '80's when no aftermarket parts were available.
The consensus then was that the big journal cranks tended to spin main bearings at high rpm due to the oiling characteristics of the big mains....friction increase and oil wedge build up, IIRC. In the day, I ran into several 428's and 421's with spun mains from revving too high or sustained high-ish rpm. A guy I know lost the original 421 HO in his '64 Catalina driving down the highway at the normal 3500 rpm (3.90 gears/4 speed). Spun a main.
I have not run into 455's personally with this issue. The take-away was that a 400 with a stroker crank was more durable than a 455 with a stock crank. I like the more metal in the 400 and the less friction, along with slightly thicker cylinder walls. Of course, if I ran across a real-deal 421 HO I would absolutely run it in my '65, as nothing sounds as cool as '421'. The 428 I used to have in the car back in the 80's had crank oiling issues and bearing failure from me revving it too high for too long on a commute. YMMV...


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

If you were a west coaster I’d offer $1300 for that engine and pray you’d take the $!


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Jared said:


> Sweet! I actually forgot about the trailer so make that 7 different makes. We have a strange mix here. My oldest is an import car guy. Some are turned off by this but he has a lot of wrench time on some of his cars.
> 
> 1970 LeMans Sport
> 1981 Corvette (dad's)
> ...


I know exactly what your talking about there my friend !!!😂😂😂😂


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

System said:


> I've got my FB listing written up with some pics. I guess I could start it at $2500 and see what happens. I'd like to take a better video than the one I have. It's fine but I can hear fan noise more than the engine.


Here's something Idk if you thought of, what if there's a problem with the new 428 and you've sold the 400 now you have nothing. What's the machine shops warranty and do they cover a motor you installed? You said he's going to run it on the stand, I would be there and video it, is he breaking it in too? Sorry to be a pessimist but we had a member solar68 that had a problem with a new build last year. Just a thought that maybe wait and see if everything is good to go with the 428 before you sell the 400.


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## System (7 mo ago)

It's warrantied for a year, and yes, he's breaking it in at his shop. He wouldn't warranty it if he wasn't the one to run it in and break in the cam. Yes, it's warrantied through him despite being installed at an off site shop. He is a machine shop only and doesn't do R&R. The shop doing the R&R actually works with him frequently on projects like this. So, they are even coordinating pickup up the motor for me and getting it set to install before I bring in the car. I'm not too worried about something going wrong. Even if it did, I wouldn't drop the 400 back in for the time being. I'd wait for it to be fixed...


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

System said:


> It's warrantied for a year, and yes, he's breaking it in at his shop. He wouldn't warranty it if he wasn't the one to run it in and break in the cam. Yes, it's warrantied through him despite being installed at an off site shop. He is a machine shop only and doesn't do R&R. The shop doing the R&R actually works with him frequently on projects like this. So, they are even coordinating pickup up the motor for me and getting it set to install before I bring in the car. I'm not too worried about something going wrong. Even if it did, I wouldn't drop the 400 back in for the time being. I'd wait for it to be fixed...


Sounds good, I thought you were installing it sorry. Do they have a dyno? And when do you think the switch will happen?


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## System (7 mo ago)

No dyno, just an engine run stand. He's probably going to do the run in this Sat. Then I just have to wait for the shop doing the swap. Maybe another week or so... 🤞🏻


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

armyadarkness said:


> Well, my name is Jim, and I'm an idiot, so whenever you wish to be right in a conversation, I'm available in the evenings, M-F


There's room for only ONE Jim on this forum! And we know who _that_ is! LOL
I got to thinking about the statement made about getting my head out of the '80's, and it occurred to me that both of the engines in both of my GTO's were built by me in the 1980's (the '65 in '81 and the '67 in '88) and are still in the cars and still being driven today without issues. The '65 has had a water pump replaced since then, but not even a valve cover gasket. The '67 got a re-seal job in 2010 and has more miles on it. (90,000 vs 50,000). So I guess the '80's worked out for me: good quality parts made in the USA, old-school machinists who hadn't died or retired yet, and 40 years and counting of enjoying driving my cars weekly or daily....not looking at them in pieces as a non-running project. I would love building a 'new school' engine for an A body and just might as a bucket list item. But there is something to be said about a 300-400 HP engine you can drive for 40 years plus and not have to fix or even tinker with. I like that.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

geeteeohguy said:


> There's room for only ONE Jim on this forum! And we know who _that_ is!


Lol. Now that's funny!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

geeteeohguy said:


> I would love building a 'new school' engine for an A body and just might as a bucket list item. But there is something to be said about a 300-400 HP engine you can drive for 40 years plus and not have to fix or even tinker with. I like that.


That has been my goal since day one. Build a nice spare engine to have in case I need it, and have my born-with engine running as efficiently as possible, and making 400hp. 

I know dozens and dozens of guys with hotrods, but they all build them into race cars and then can't drive them anywhere but to the parking lot on Friday night. I, on the other hand, would hop in mine and drive to Canada, without even thinking twice.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

armyadarkness said:


> That has been my goal since day one. Build a nice spare engine to have in case I need it, and have my born-with engine running as efficiently as possible, and making 400hp.
> 
> I know dozens and dozens of guys with hotrods, but they all build them into race cars and then can't drive them anywhere but to the parking lot on Friday night. I, on the other hand, would hop in mine and drive to Canada, without even thinking twice.


I've done Route 66 in mine twice, have driven it to Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, Zion, Bryce Canyon, Death Valley, Oregon, Washington, all over the Western States. I take it on 1000 mile weekends a couple times a year, next one is next month---a 4 day trip up north. With my 2.56 posi out back, I get over 20mph at real speeds (75-80). I haven't touched my 90,000 mile engine except for the re-seal 10-12 years ago. Not even a carb kit. It did get new points and condenser and plugs then and is due in the next 7k miles or so. The 600-700 HP Car Show Queen is not my thing and never has been. My thing is going down the road and blowing people's minds when they see my California plates many states from home. These are mainly the under-50 crowd who are convinced no vehicle older than the year 2000 could possibly be roadworthy.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

My issue is that my traveling is largely limited by my geography. On the East coast, in South Jersey, you cant go North, South, or West without enduring "death race 2000"... the onslaught of commuters, tourists, and assholes... so while my car has no issue making the trip, New York City, Washington DC, and Philidelphia are all blocking my access to the open road.

Unless I embark at 3am.


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

armyadarkness said:


> My issue is that my traveling is largely limited by my geography. On the East coast, in South Jersey, you cant go North, South, or West without enduring "death race 2000"... the onslaught of commuters, tourists, and assholes... so while my car has no issue making the trip, New York City, Washington DC, and Philidelphia are all blocking my access to the open road.
> 
> Unless I embark at 3am.


I like a little lope but nothing radical.....lope in mine is basically at idle ! 😂😂 a few twists of idle screw and lope disappears


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

armyadarkness said:


> My issue is that my traveling is largely limited by my geography. On the East coast, in South Jersey, you cant go North, South, or West without enduring "death race 2000"... the onslaught of commuters, tourists, and assholes... so while my car has no issue making the trip, New York City, Washington DC, and Philidelphia are all blocking my access to the open road.
> 
> Unless I embark at 3am.


I have relatives on the east coast and get it. Traffic sucks. But the seafood kicks our 'left coast' butt, hands down. And the Italian food out here is a joke. The history is killer, too. Lots of open roads out where I am, and it takes longer to get out of CA than it does to go through 3 states back east. I did sell my Model T and stopped riding my street bike 3-4 years ago due to cell-phone-distracted drivers, though.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

geeteeohguy said:


> I have relatives on the east coast and get it. Traffic sucks. But the seafood kicks our 'left coast' butt, hands down. And the Italian food out here is a joke. The history is killer, too. Lots of open roads out where I am, and it takes longer to get out of CA than it does to go through 3 states back east. I did sell my Model T and stopped riding my street bike 3-4 years ago due to cell-phone-distracted drivers, though.


Agreed 100%.

If Rock-n-Roll, AWESOME FOOD, culture, history, and Stank Ho's are your thing, then Jersey has it all!

We also have hundreds of miles of desolate farm, country, and coastal roads, and I can easily log 150 miles in a day, and barely see another car... Thanks to being the corruption capital of the country, Jersey is 100% union, so even the most remote and unused roads, have brand new, state of the art pavement!

In fact, the only thing you cant do in Jersey is leave this shithole!


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

armyadarkness said:


> Agreed 100%.
> 
> If Rock-n-Roll, AWESOME FOOD, culture, history, and Stank Ho's are your thing, then Jersey has it all!
> 
> ...


😂😂😂


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

armyadarkness said:


> Well before you get carried away, I have a sister, a case of Miller, and a fresh sleeve of grilling brats with Wisconsin cheddar to trade, so if you plan on out bidding me, you better go home and reload.


Pic of your sister please......


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

geeteeohguy said:


> I have relatives on the east coast and get it. Traffic sucks. But the seafood kicks our 'left coast' butt, hands down. And the Italian food out here is a joke. The history is killer, too. Lots of open roads out where I am, and it takes longer to get out of CA than it does to go through 3 states back east. I did sell my Model T and stopped riding my street bike 3-4 years ago due to cell-phone-distracted drivers, though.


Hi Paul!


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Eric Animal said:


> Hi Paul!


Paul's my brother, Eric! I'm Jeff over here!

Hello on back atcha and hope you and your black bombe rare doing well in our mad, mad, mad, mad world.


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## System (7 mo ago)

Well, I listed the motor the other day and got 3 offers in as many days. Two of which were full price... $2500. I am glad I went out on the higher end the recommendations I got here. One party did say they were mailing me a check and could pick up at the shop doing my R&R when the it's out. So, I guess it's pending once I get the check in the mail. The guy who's buying it said that he was looking for a 1968 4 speed motor for his brother's firebird so it was a perfect match. Now to get the swap done...


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

A check? Now a days I would only take cash, they can even fake a bank check or you deposit it and days later when they have the motor and are gone the bank calls and tells you it finally bounced...up to you but be careful...people suck.


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## System (7 mo ago)

The check is only for a deposit on a motor that won't be picked up for 3 weeks. It's ok. The balance will be paid in cash when it's picked up...


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

System said:


> Well, I listed the motor the other day and got 3 offers in as many days. Two of which were full price... $2500. I am glad I went out on the higher end the recommendations I got here. One party did say they were mailing me a check and could pick up at the shop doing my R&R when the it's out. So, I guess it's pending once I get the check in the mail. The guy who's buying it said that he was looking for a 1968 4 speed motor for his brother's firebird so it was a perfect match. Now to get the swap done...


This is a win for you and the guy with the Firebird. Great news, and thanks for the follow-up.


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## System (7 mo ago)

Guys, another value question if you would. I'll have the OE intake off the 428 along with the exhaust manifolds. What do we think the value is there?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The OE intake is the best intake you can get for your application. Bar none. For anything 600HP or less. Ebay the exhaust manifolds and the price will set itself.


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## System (7 mo ago)

Well boys, the time has come. The 400 is out of the car and my buyer lands at the shop doing the swap tomorrow. It ran so well on the trip to the shop that I briefly wondered about my intentions... Anyways, next week the real work starts with all the new parts going in. Fresh 428 and M20, Yukon LS diff and DANA 3.55's with aluminum cover, new master and brake booster conversion from manual brakes, Dougs headers, Pypes H Bomb exhaust with turbos, Granatelli cutouts, Borgeson steering box and rag joint, CVF serpentine conversion, DEI HEI and wires, Quick Fuel 4150 carb, Carter fuel pump, Tuff stuff starter, Ram clutch and flywheel, Flowkooler water pump, etc.... 

Yeah, there was mission creep with my simple engine swap... When she gets back home, I'll do my Dakota Digital gauge swap and install my audio equipment. Then throw a cover over til spring and try to recover financially... Or order more parts to install next spring... I wonder which way that will go....


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

System said:


> Well boys, the time has come. The 400 is out of the car and my buyer lands at the shop doing the swap tomorrow. It ran so well on the trip to the shop that I briefly wondered about my intentions... Anyways, next week the real work starts with all the new parts going in. Fresh 428 and M20, Yukon LS diff and DANA 3.55's with aluminum cover, new master and brake booster conversion from manual brakes, Dougs headers, Pypes H Bomb exhaust with turbos, Granatelli cutouts, Borgeson steering box and rag joint, CVF serpentine conversion, DEI HEI and wires, Quick Fuel 4150 carb, Carter fuel pump, Tuff stuff starter, Ram clutch and flywheel, Flowkooler water pump, etc....
> 
> Yeah, there was mission creep with my simple engine swap... When she gets back home, I'll do my Dakota Digital gauge swap and install my audio equipment. Then throw a cover over til spring and try to recover financially... Or order more parts to install next spring... I wonder which way that will go....


Nice list of upgrades! Which Ram clutch are you going with? I had a 10" Ram clutch behind the 400 that came out of mine. I went with the 11" McLeod for the new engine.


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## System (7 mo ago)

Jared, I called and talked to Mike from RAM. For my use he recommended the 11" HDX so that's what I got along with one of their billet steel flywheels. He said unless I go way up in power and add slicks, this clutch is more than enough for me as I'll break traction long before I'll slip the clutch. He told me that as with most things, people often go with "bigger must be better" and over clutch their cars. This leaves you with a leg shaker of a pedal and no benefit.

Anyways, the engine headed off to NY today and I stopped to visit the new 428 as it was still on the stand being broken in. My builder ran it for me briefly and I think I should have brought hearing protection. Man was that beast loud with no exhaust at high RPM! Getting pretty excited about all the upgrades about to happen. Hopefully I have it back the week after next...


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

System said:


> Not much of a fan of the looks of GMC or Chevy trucks since the square body. Oh, the wife drives a Grand Cherokee so we have all 3 brands covered... 😬


67 Gto, 07 F250, 17 Cadillac mix here.


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## System (7 mo ago)

RMTZ67 said:


> 67 Gto, 07 F250, 17 Cadillac mix here.


I hear you. I'm not a brand loyal guy. I buy what I like the best in the category I'm shopping at the time.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

System said:


> Jared, I called and talked to Mike from RAM. For my use he recommended the 11" HDX so that's what I got along with one of their billet steel flywheels.


Thats what I run


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