# 2005 GTO - looks thread - split thread



## [email protected] (Jul 28, 2004)

1COOLPC said:


> The reason this car failed is not because it's bad but because Americans have horrible taste in cars. The lack of sales of the GTO is an insult to American car buyers, not the car. The Monaro, same exact freaking car, is very sought after automobile in Australia.


---We do not live in Australia! Heck ... even their toilets flush backwards ... don't they? I'm not bashing the car ... as much as I am the idea that "what works there ... MUST work here".




1COOLPC said:


> The only thing people have to say about is they don't like the looks of it, that's fine. But that's all they say and most of those have never driven one because they would quit caring about how it looks. (snip) Big deal if somebody doesn't like the looks, that's just an opinion and matters absolutely ZERO.


---I think they are too small, as well! As for the looks ... it's not that it's ugly ... it's that there are so many options (other vehicles) available on the market. Now, when you talk about ugly ... I refer you to the Aztec. Apparently ... LOOKS *do* matter! Would it matter if the Aztec had a 350HP V-8? Opinions are just that ... opinions ... but the public won't buy wing-tips if they want loafers ... even if they serve the same purpose ... but just look different.


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## aw6speed (Jul 28, 2004)

Haha good point about the azteck. Doesn't the baja come to mind as well? But yeah, even though, these are all our opinions, styling does make a huge diffrence. I know what 1COOLPC is refering to about the "nostrils" on trans-ams and those are plain heinous. The new GTO isn't suposed to be a muscle car like that, and I like that. As long as the hood scoops arn't massive wind tunnels like those offered on trans-ams and all the like, I think they will generally go over well. In the monaro, the scoops are not of large dimension and are almost subtle inuendos of the engine that lays below. Also, doesn't the ls1 have issues with over heating? The hood scoops should eliminate some of that (even if it is upgraded to the ls2, if the scoops are functional it couldn't hurt it) But yeah, Im sticking by my suggestion of offering things like the hoodscoops as individual components (like the upgrade gear ratio on the c5 vettes or the nav) or could be all packaged together as an option, once again like a vette's 1sb option.


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## 1COOLPC (Jul 27, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> --- ... even their toilets flush backwards ... don't they?


This is 100% not true. If that is the basis for not liking products from there, and it is an urban legend, does that mean you now like the GTO? 

http://www.snopes.com/science/coriolis.htm


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## BishopTx (Jul 28, 2004)

Cool,

I take issue with your debate style and ask that we keep the discussion to the car. Insulting an entire country, especially the country that most of the readers that read this forum are citizens of, is not something that will make your points stronger, your debate more resolute or your conclusions anymore believable - the only thing they degrade is you.

Now - onto the car. 

Styling does matter. It matters a lot - espeically in the country where 80%+ of your expected sales are to come from. The GTO looks like a Grand Am - Honda Accord combo. It's a bland looking car and its looks have almost nothing to do with its heritage. Style doesn't only matter, it's paramount in any product people buy for pleasure. Where style matters less is where value is based on functionality. 

You can't market the new GTO as a Performance vehicle and abandon styling; the only way you can do that is if the price is insanely low or the performance is outrageous. The Dodge SRT-4 is a good example of the aforementioned extreme - bad styling with good performance, but it's only 19K. The GTO is stuck somewhere in the middle. It's not an extremely well performing GT and it's not that cheap. 

People can spend a little more and get better styling and a lot better performance (Corvette), or they can spend the same and get similar performance and good styling (350Z, S2000) or spend a lot less and still get a performance bargain and sacrifice styling (Evo, WRX). 

The GTO may be a good car, but it's pricing, marketing and target audience are all screwed up. There are better choices everywhere you look.

I will give the interior of the car a lot of praise, especially the dash panels and gagues. Too bad most people don't see them because they can't get past this bland picture.


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## 1COOLPC (Jul 27, 2004)

Take issue all you want but America's not perfect, it would be foolish to believe it is and if you think our country has a track record of producing perfect cars then you're fooling yourself. For Pete's sake, the inferior Mustang outsold the F-Body 5 to 1 and the F-Bodies were always superior cars. I'm not insulting this country entirely, I love it, but you can't say we have good taste, as a whole on a lot of things. Have you turned on a TV set lately? This car didn't sell because it wasn't tacky. Pure and simple. Had it been a tacky scoop beladen vehicle then they would have moved a lot more of them. That does offend me. And I'm sick of hearing feedback on this car from people who have looked at pictures of them and no more. OK, some people don't like the way it looks. GOT IT! Do they have anything more to offer or just that opinion?

And they didn't abandon the styling on the GTO. It's absolutely gorgeous and civilized looking. On par with any handsome vehicle Europe has to offer.

There are better choices? Please give me JUST ONE? Name one RWD coupe with a manual transmission, powerful V8 engine for less than $50,000 that has build quality and solidity of structure? You can't, it has no peer right now. I would love to hear you give me a single alternative that fits the GTO's shoes and doesn't cost a butt load more money.

This car has two flaws, it's a Pontiac and it's called the GTO. It never stood a chance with the kind of car fans of these two entities desire. Stick a couple of those giant Firebird booger-holes on the hood and it probably would have sold better. That's a pity to me.

The failure of this car is because of one of three reasons; the car itself, the people selling it or the people who are not buying it. I own a GTO, I know what kind of car it is and it's the absolute one part of that triangle I know isn't a failure.

EDIT: I am hoping the 2005 Mustang GT and Cobra will be a quality, well built and pleasant to drive vehicle that will give the GTO some competition. The current car is not even close, my father is a Mustang nut and they are world's apart in final product. I really hope Ford gets it together for the new Mustang. Mustang fans deserve it after 20+ years on the same structure.

And I don't want to come off as being harsh, it just hurts me to see GM bring an excellent car to the market and have it fail. This is one of the finest vehicles I've ever owned and it isn't even being given a chance and I think it's for the wrong reasons. I don't like what it says about my country's car buying public when a car this good doesn't sell. It is sad to me. But hey, I got mine, I love it and the fewer sold is really better for me down the road.


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## BishopTx (Jul 28, 2004)

You're making my argument more than you know.

Saying it has no peer has little relevance when you so narrowly define the requirements. If you're trying to draw a comaprisson to the M3 then I'm confused - because you're build quality requirement is null & void then. 

It's a decent drag car, but it is too heavy with its sub par styling. The car is hurt in its overall appeal. And it's not a good track car - with sub par skid pad, slalom and road course times. It looses the stlying, handling and performance comapre to the 350Z, M3 and S2000 (combo of 0-60, 1/4 mile, track, slalom, skid pad; and it's not as fast in a straight line as the Cobra.)

I agree there would be a better reception of the car were it to not have the Pontiac or GTO name. I still think the car LOOKS like an Accord-Grand Am Mix, and I'm not alone in that opinion. That is a problem for the car. Now that's not saying I believe the car should be riced out, have ground effects all over it, scoops and a big whale tail on the back -- ick!

A more aggressive style that matches it intended audience however, would be make the car more appealing. And so would a $5-8K drop in the price tag. Given it's performance vs styling, that's the price range I see the car doing well -- similar how it did what it did with the original GTO.

Putting the LS2 engine in the 2005 version and taking it to 395hp (rumor) will only frustrate the current problem IMO -- that assumes a price increase will come with it. Now if GM/Pontiac are willing to bump the hp to 395 with the LS2 engine and not raise the price, well that would create something called value, which the GTO needs. 

The current formula isn't working...and to blame the general public for that is somewhat narrow minded don't you think?


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## 1COOLPC (Jul 27, 2004)

BishopTx said:


> You're making my argument more than you know.
> 
> Saying it has no peer has little relevance when you so narrowly define the requirements. If you're trying to draw a comaprisson to the M3 then I'm confused - because you're build quality requirement is null & void then.


I don't think wanting a V8 RWD manually shifted coupe should be such a hard order to fill. To me this is a basic need for a good GT coupe. It's not crazy and it shouldn't be unusual. A lot of people like V8's and it's one of the three most common engine arrangements sold today. The GTO should not be the only everyday car with this drivetrain, but it is. Well the Mustang too. My M3 comparison is with looks. BMW makes handsome coupes, the GTO is a handsome coupe.



> It's a decent drag car, but it is too heavy with its sub par styling. The car is hurt in its overall appeal. And it's not a good track car - with sub par skid pad, slalom and road course times. It looses the stlying, handling and performance comapre to the 350Z, M3 and S2000 (combo of 0-60, 1/4 mile, track, slalom, skid pad; and it's not as fast in a straight line as the Cobra.)


But it's a better overall car than any of those because for those who want a V8 engine the only competition it has is the Cobra and one day in that car and you will be crying for some build quality. I mean face it, an all aluminum, high output, tough sounding V8 motor is far cooler than any Japanese V6 engine will ever hope to be. You can feel it when you drive it. I considered the G35 coupe when I purchased my GTO and if the Infinity came with adrenalin injections I might have considered. The G35 and 350Z are a couple of the best cars made today as long as you can live with a complete lack of excitement when driving. They don't even sound good when you get on it. The GTO build quality and structural integrity is as good or better than any of those cars you mentioned and that's probably due to the fact that it's not an American car. (Don't get down on me for dissing American cars either because I notice you don't mention a lot of them either.)



> I agree there would be a better reception of the car were it to not have the Pontiac or GTO name. I still think the car LOOKS like an Accord-Grand Am Mix, and I'm not alone in that opinion. That is a problem for the car. Now that's not saying I believe the car should be riced out, have ground effects all over it, scoops and a big whale tail on the back -- ick!


You can say any car looks like any other car but they are realistically so far apart in styling that you would never, even on the last day you had sight from a deteriorating eye disease, mistake the two. I think it looks more like a BMW coupe than any of those myself. It's a very handsome and understated design. Period. It is a tasteful car for people who appreciate a fine and simple line that isn't overly complex just for the sake of it. And most experts that I've read do agree that it's an attractive design. It's just how I like cars to be and I'll tell you something else, I had a 1998 C5 in 1997 when NOBODY had a C5 on the road yet. Far, far more people come up to talk with me on my GTO than ever did with my C5. All positive. It is the warmest reception I've had from any car I've owned. People love to talk about it and are very interested in it. This caught me totally by surprise. Some don't like it, sure. But a lot of people do like it when they see it. I do give credit for a lot of this with the car being yellow, I'm sure silver or black would not have the same experience.



> A more aggressive style that matches it intended audience however, would be make the car more appealing. And so would a $5-8K drop in the price tag. Given it's performance vs styling, that's the price range I see the car doing well -- similar how it did what it did with the original GTO.


That's why this car shouldn't be called the GTO. Everybody wants a price drop. I don't, it's priced great and I wouldn't want to give up $8,000 worth of goodness in this excellent car. You want a cheap car then buy one but don't wish a great car was lessened just so it doesn't cost as much. If anything I would like to see a sunroof, navigation and a few other things with a $2000 price gain to cover it. Some people just want something for nothing, great cars like this aren't cheap. (By the way, it's obvious that you haven't spent any real time with the GTO because you clearly don't understand what kind of car it is. I don't mean this as an insult but you would be singing a different tune if you could spend a week with one.)



> Putting the LS2 engine in the 2005 version and taking it to 395hp (rumor) will only frustrate the current problem IMO -- that assumes a price increase will come with it. Now if GM/Pontiac are willing to bump the hp to 395 with the LS2 engine and not raise the price, well that would create something called value, which the GTO needs.


Supposedly the price is going up only minutely but time will tell. We will need to wait and see what the situation is with pricing on the 2005 model. But I'm not the type of person to expect improvements with no added cost. If a car gets better then it should cost more. Like I keep saying, this car has no peer in it's price range, I can't think of a car this good that costs less than $50,000 off the top of my head. Lots of little engine cars seat four people but they don't feel or drive like this one. 



> The current formula isn't working...and to blame the general public for that is somewhat narrow minded don't you think?


Not at all, they are an important part of the car buying circle. When quality products don't sell who do you blame? Marketing? The dealer network? The customer? They all share in the responsibility. A knowledgeable car buyer with this type of car in mind should have the GTO on a very short list of cars to drive. As I stated earlier, this is a quality car and worth every penny they ask and then some, it is the one element of the whole circle I am absolutely certain is not to blame. I don't blame just the public, the stupid dealers with their $10,000 mark ups totally hold some of the responsibility. Pontiac for creating its image has some of the burden. But the car itself is an excellent one and I've owned a lot of excellent cars. I do know what I'm talking about, I don't believe the naysayers do and are judging only on the few cars they looked at the outside of and have some perceived notion that it's a Pontiac and it has some GTO name on it even though this car is nothing like a GTO. (It's better in every regard.)


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## BishopTx (Jul 28, 2004)

Cool,

So you make some good points...

For me and the folks I am around with similar interests in cars, especially performance cars, the new GTO just does not appeal. And we're a fairly educated group and have tried to learn about the car in a non-biased manner.

And you're right, I have not spent a lot of time with the car, although I did test drive one, and I didn't come away overly impressed. It performed okay, but I never could get passed its looks -- its honda accord grand prix esque looks.

And as a professional marketer for a fortune 50 company, and I can't help but think that the marketing director for the GTO should be fired -- he's obviously not done his homework. When people hear GTO they think really good performance for not a lot of money - that's the legacy. For what you get from the GTO, coupled with its bland styling, that price point is too much. The car doesn't match the name, the brand or the price point.

And I'm really not meaning to insult anyone who does like the car, or their tastes. My point is on a macro level. My point is that GM messed this one up.


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## old goat (Jul 27, 2004)

My point is on a macro level. My point is that GM messed this one up.[/QUOTE said:


> :agree :agree :agree


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## 1COOLPC (Jul 27, 2004)

Everything I say about the car is under the assumption that it's a world class vehicle and I really can't care less for anything beyond that. I am sitting in the informed and experienced opinion that this is one of the best cars I've ever spent time with and you will find most, if not all, other GTO owners will agree. This is an educated conclusion I've come to from spending time with the car. Again, I keep reiterating that this car's failure is not the car's fault but other aspects in the car purchasing circle. I'll never believe otherwise because I know how excellent a car this truly is. I much prefer it over cars I've owned like a late model Audi A8, a C5 Corvette and others simply because it brings all the good things of those cars into one package. No other car does so many things as well in this type of package at this price segment. I can't think of a single one with the passion of this car.

And, it is a phenominally handsome car. The lines are exquisite and I honestly can't fathom a person coming to another conclusion on the looks. We are worlds apart on what we think makes a good looking vehicle.

How anybody can get excited over a small displacment, low torque japanese engine is beyond me. Good cars, yes. Passionate car? No chance in hell.

Basically the GTO failed because of every possible aspect beyond the actual car itself. It's not the first time in marketing history this has happend. Beta was superior to VHS for one example.

*CONTINUED ON NEXT PAGE*


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## 1COOLPC (Jul 27, 2004)

*CONTINUED FROM LAST PAGE*

This car looks more like the Mercedes anyway.










I don't know what Accord you bring up but it's no Honda I've ever seen before. The current Accord 2 door is similar only in that it has 2 doors, a hood, a trunk and 6 pieces of glass, like every other coupe on the market. I've heard the GTO compared to pretty much every coupe sold today but all coupes follow similar characteristics so they will have similar lines unless they're decked out with a bunch of bolt on appearance stuff.

Pontiac can't win though no matter that they do. People rip them up for putting plastic crap all over their cars and then when they do try make a mature looking design people rip on them for that too.


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## 1COOLPC (Jul 27, 2004)

More from me. 

The other thing is that I am a bit miffed that I come to a web site dedicated to the GTO and GTO enthusiasts and I have to defend the GTO from naysayers. Where can GTO people go to discuss the merrits of this car and not have to hear the same things we hear on other car forums? I assumed, by the name of this forum, that others here would come because they also enjoyed the car as myself. Why are you here if you aren't pleased with the performance and don't like the looks? That just doesn't make any sense to me.


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## BishopTx (Jul 28, 2004)

I'm not sure you really want an answer to that last question, but you did ask, so here's mine.

I'm here because:
* I can be. 
* I have recently gone through an extensive car research project in lieu of purchasing a new car, and the GTO is one I considered, test drove and researched.
* I am a car buff, and more specifically a performance car buff, and the idea of rekindling of an American icon was something I found appealing.
* Did I mention because I can be, free country, that sort of thing?

I worry about folks that only want to associate with like-minds-- people who believe exactly how they believe. That's dangerous. Provided that the differences of opinions are expressed in a healthy, non-abbrassive and good spirited manner, opposing points of view should be welcomed, if not at the least accepted.

I've decided on what car to purchase, and came here after reading the notices that the new GTO forums were available. I thought, hey, I looked into buying that car, and was interested to see what other people thought.


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## 1COOLPC (Jul 27, 2004)

Fair enough but it just strikes me, myself, as peculiar to participate in a discussion forum for a topic that a person isn't interested in. I guess I should say that it's just not something I would do (Join a Mustang forum for instance.) and I am genuinely curious at others' motivation to do so.


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## [email protected] (Jul 28, 2004)

1COOLPC said:


> Have you turned on a TV set lately? This car didn't sell because it wasn't tacky.


---I personally, do not go for the BAYWATCH or REALITY shows ... but I am being told by corporate America that those shows are exactly what I want (not correct). In actuality ... you make a good comparison. Someone at GM is telling us what they think we want (all of the time). 



1COOLPC said:


> OK, some people don't like the way it looks. GOT IT! Do they have anything more to offer or just that opinion?


---To answer your question ... apparently, the answer is no. Personally, I think the lines of the GTO are mild and streamlined. There's nothing wrong with that ... it just doesn't remind me of a muscle car (which was my main interest in the car). IMHO, it looks similar to a Cadillac Catera (which I like(d)). The GTO is a sleeper ... or wolf in sheeps clothing ... and GM hasn't built those since the 60's/70's. 



1COOLPC said:


> ... it just hurts me to see GM bring an excellent car to the market and have it fail. This is one of the finest vehicles I've ever owned and it isn't even being given a chance and I think it's for the wrong reasons.


---You probably hit the nail on the head with this one! Pontiac was probably the wrong brand for this car. By the same token, I am glad to see Pontiac shy away from excessive body cladding that has been over-used on Pontiacs in the recent past.


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## [email protected] (Jul 28, 2004)

*Deep Thought Required!*

<<Now that's not saying I believe the car should be riced out, have ground effects all over it, scoops and a big whale tail on the back -- ick!>>

---Here's a thought to ponder ... what are the chances that GM is trying to produce an American muscle car to sway the young ricers into buying a Pontiac? In other words ... is GM trying to produce competition ... to keep my kid (the genre') from wanting to buy a Honda Accord? Hey - think about is ... Pontiac WAS / IS building GTO drifters ... right?


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## 1COOLPC (Jul 27, 2004)

$33,000 is a pretty steep price to lure in the youngsters. Maybe a stripped down cloth interior car like the F-Body offered would be nice.


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## [email protected] (Jul 28, 2004)

You make a valid point. I'm just wondering what the intent of the car was. Was it designed for the under 25 crowd ... over 40 crowd ... or somewhere in between. If I had to guess ... I'd say they were not seeking the 40+ crowd (based soly on the size of the interior). We older folk tend to get a tad wider with age!


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## 1COOLPC (Jul 27, 2004)

To be honest I'm not even sure if Pontiac Marketing spent much time thinking about this car at all. I would guess young, married professionals with 1 or 2 children. Possibly 35-40 years old that have enough memory of the street rod years. I'm 38 and this car just flat out spoke to me.


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## Gtrain (Jul 27, 2004)

I just turned 32, but I had pontiacs for years. Lots of us started out with F-Bodies, so I have followed Pontiac for years....and knew about the GTO from that.

When I get one, I have one daughter with another on the way. It is a no brainer that I can take my oldest one in a booster. I am still thinking about getting another corvette but I alrady have too many cars....the GTO for me, seems like an easy answer.


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## GARY SIZEMORE (Aug 2, 2004)

I Just Got My Gto Last Sat, Black With Red Seats And I Absolutly Love It And Yes The Only People With Anything Negative To Say Are The People That Think It Should Look Like The "old Gto". I Got Mine For Under $28,000. I Traded My 2001 Camaro Ss For The Gto And The Only Thing I Miss About The Camaro Is The T-tops.. I'm Very Happy.


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## zgoat (Aug 1, 2004)

where did you find it for under $28,000...and are there any more at that price?


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## [email protected] (Jul 28, 2004)

GARY SIZEMORE said:


> I...And Yes The Only People With Anything Negative To Say Are The People That Think It Should Look Like The "old Gto". I Got Mine For Under $28,000.


Gary, I don't understand why a few (2004) GTO owners on this site seem to want to lambaste the rest of the population? I think you are off base by suggesting that everyone wants a 2004 car to look like a 1964. I think what many others are saying is that they want more substance in the 2004 styling.

As for pricing ... can you tell us if you received a rebate (posted on another thread)? The reason I ask is that all information points to a dealer invoice of $29,400. That being said ... either there was a rebate ($750 - $2,000 reported), or the dealer sold the car at a loss.


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## [email protected] (Jul 28, 2004)

1COOLPC said:


> ... I would guess young, married professionals with 1 or 2 children. Possibly 35-40 years old that have enough memory of the street rod years.


---On average, 35-40 year old yuppies with kids have been spending a lot more than $33K on cars for many years now. Perhaps that is indeed Pontiac's intention ... but then the DRIFTING aspect wouldn't make sense. I could be wrong ... but I find it difficult to believe that GM would be marketing a car to two different segments. 

Perhaps one of the biggest mistakes that GM made (IMHO) is dumping the F-body cars without having a replacement already on the showroom floor. Heck, Chevy and GMC kept selling the Blazer and Jimmy for 2-3 (?) years after the new TrailBlazer came out!?


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## GARY SIZEMORE (Aug 2, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Gary, I don't understand why a few (2004) GTO owners on this site seem to want to lambaste the rest of the population? I think you are off base by suggesting that everyone wants a 2004 car to look like a 1964. I think what many others are saying is that they want more substance in the 2004 styling.
> 
> As for pricing ... can you tell us if you received a rebate (posted on another thread)? The reason I ask is that all information points to a dealer invoice of $29,400. That being said ... either there was a rebate ($750 - $2,000 reported), or the dealer sold the car at a loss.


I GOT THE GMS PRICE MY BROTHER WORKS FOR GM. THAT WAS A $3200 DISCOUNT PLUS A $2000 REBATE W/2.9% FOR 60 MONTHS. ALSO MY CAMARO I TRADED IN WAS MADE IN CANADA.. AND NO ONE WAS UPSET THAT IT WAS "NOT A AMERICAN CAR".


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## [email protected] (Jul 28, 2004)

Gary - You certainly lucked out! GMS "plus" the rebate ... SWEET! :cheers


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## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

*GTO a failure? Already?*

I got mine about a month ago. Love it.
But I'm confused why I keep hearing here that the GTO is a failure. The way I hear it, people were getting their back-ordered cars as late as May, so its just now that dealers have really had any for "shoppers" to look at. Heck, the dealer I went to only had about 6 to choose from. Its not like they have lots full of them. Okay sales are a bit behind projections, but my sales guy said the whole dealershp sales were flat and not doing great.

All I can tell you is that I think this is the best car *I* have ever owned, and it gets LOTS of positive comments every where I go with it.


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## Cmyskill (Aug 2, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> As for pricing ... can you tell us if you received a rebate (posted on another thread)? The reason I ask is that all information points to a dealer invoice of $29,400. That being said ... either there was a rebate ($750 - $2,000 reported), or the dealer sold the car at a loss.



My Sister works for a Dealer and she does the final closing paper work on the cars sold. She actually does all the accounting for the dealership. The invoice price is just the cost the dealer shows the consumer and wants them to believe they pay for the cars. On an invoice of 29,400 and a sticker of 33k + you can rest assure that the actual cost is below 27,500 and there are kickbacks that the dealer will get at the end of the quarter/year. So yes it is very easy to get that price if you work them and they want to move that car. There are 3 gto's at my local dealer and they can't seam to move them. Steve Barnett of Port St. lucie Florida. (Black and 2 Red) They have been there for two or three months now. Just sharing what she told me.

good luck guys hope this helps...


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## yortsiyag (Aug 19, 2004)

They are practically giving away the GTO's.They can had for cents on the
dollar used and the dealerships are coming off the stickers 3-4 grand.
Look on autotrader.com and see how many of them are for sale. They
are simply not selling. And I agree they are nice cars, although not too great
looking.It is a shame.


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## yortsiyag (Aug 19, 2004)

zgoat said:


> where did you find it for under $28,000...and are there any more at that price?


As many as the eye can see.New GTO's can be had for 25K!
Look on autotrader.com!


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## zgoat (Aug 1, 2004)

i havent seen any as low as 25K, but i will look again


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## WWJDWITHCA (Aug 28, 2004)

*GTO Looks*

The GTO is certainly NOT ugly as some are saying. It's not exciting looking like an Audi TT......or a Corvette, but that's on purpose (can't have a car 10 grand cheaper competing in the looks department). Furthermore, GM is going after a different target market with this car.......30-45 year old males, married with children, $80-120k/yr household income. A car a guy could drive to work during the week, and take his family out on the weekends. Most people in that target market if they showed up at work with a car that was as impracticle as a Vette all his friends would think he was in mid-life crisis. 

Secondly, just because a car is not selling like gang-busters doesn't mean it's ugly, or that it was a poor design, or that it HAS to have some serious flaw. Completely false! You can go all the way back to the Tucker, and as late as the RX7 to see good designs not being sucessful.....for one reason or another.

So why isn't the GTO hiting it's mark yet? It's early, the car still may take off. Yes, I think the old-guard Goat lovers were put-off by the design not looking retro enough (didn't help the Thunderbird though), but more importantly I don't think it's hitting it's target market. I believe the guys go and look at the GTO, but then end up buying a luxury sedan.....or a truck!!

I personally like it. I like that the styling is not overdone, and what's not to love about the drive-train, and the interior? All first rate. Fact is, the car is an excellent effort by GM.


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## AlaskaGTO (Aug 29, 2004)

I hear some very angry words in some of these posts. Not everyone has to LOVE this car. I have a 66 coupe, now that car I love. Pontiac tried to get in on the nostalgia craze like the PT Cruiser and the T-Bird and the SSR. Different approaches to old styles or old names. Frankly, I think Pontiac did the best job by far. But it has nothing to tie it to the old Goat but the name tag. 

It does not have to be a clone of the old ones, but something to tie it in. It looks like a sedan from the suburbs. I can't stand the "ricers" and am not saying it needs any of that crap. There are other ways of giving a car a look. It should have been give a stance to make it look like it wants to go, not just sit there. My 66 looks like it is going to pounce, like it could take off on it's own. It does not have wings or fins, no multi tone paint, just an understated hood scoop alluding to the ass kicker under the hood. Pontiac wanted to invoke an old legend but missed a little. They can fix that, the cause is not lost. But they do need to do something. And the price started out crazy. They wanted close to 40k in my neck of the woods. Bring it down some, without taking away from it. Stop trying to gouge us just because of the name. It can be a very good car but if it does not have some minor changes, I think it could fail like the others.


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## rock421 (Aug 7, 2004)

All cars are viewed different by all people. Some people wind up being haters and some people are so in love with a particular model or body style it seems like they are trying to cram it down your throat. 
I own a 65' and I really dig it. It's a huge part of who I am. We are going to try and order the 05' again today (hopefully the 18's are available now) and I can't wait to get my grubby little hands on it. I like the car for what is. I don't really care too much about what other people think it should or shouldn't be. 
We may get some heated opinions here and there, but thats OK. If we all had the same opinion, we would all be driving the same car. How boring would that be?

Brian


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## yortsiyag (Aug 19, 2004)

Personally I think the new GTO is ok looking.A little bland.But is it really
a GTO if it is the same car as the Monaro with GTO badges stuck on it?
Let's be honest, it is a Monaro with a LS1 motor, which I guess is not
a bad thing, but it has no retro styling cues to link it with the old GTO's.
Ford took a major step in the right direction by making the 05 Mustang
look like the classic mustangs of the past. The Pontiac dealers in my area
are sitting on the GTO's,and I have not seen ONE GTO on the road anywhere
in Birmingham.Which also tells me that they are not selling.I drive a C5 now
and with a second child on the way, I would have been VERY interested
in buying the GTO to replace the C5 if the car would have looked just a
little more aggressive.I do like the 05's alot better, and I am very seriously
considering buying one if they turn out to be as fast as I think they will.
The dual exhaust pipes and ram hood is a big step in the right direction.


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## GTO TOO (Sep 10, 2004)

I've read most of the above posts.
I don't care if some do not like the look, I Do. I've always wanted the structure of an OPEL and a Great Engine.
The guy from BishopTx calls himself a car guy yet compares a four wheel independant rear suspension, LS1, rear drive, vehicle to a front wheel drive four cyl HONDA. I prefer the sutile look to the "SCREAMIN' Chicken" fake foiler, shaker hood, TA's of my youth.
As to an inexpensive preformance option; it may look similar to the Grand Prix, but the LS1 is an huge improvement in power. And the cost difference between a Grand Prix and a GTO is very small for the power added.Compare it to a Mustang!!!
Have you driven a Mustang lately !!! It doesn't matter they feel just like the old ones. Loose and un-refined. 
The original GTO had very few styling cues added in the first few years. 
My local dealer is adding tape and goofy hood scoops and a "Judge" sticker for around 4 grand extra!!! go figure. This GTO is a refined road car with major power. The old GTO's 442's and etc, went fast and scared everyone involved when a corner loomed ahead. I know I drove 'em. For those that don't get it, too bad buy a Honda. Adding hood scoops my be what some folks want, but I'll take a refines fast road car that doesn't scream " boy racer" to every guy driving a Ford Vic with a roof mounted RED LIGHT !!!!! ( That said mine is Torrid ' arrest me' RED )


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## lisatw151 (Sep 8, 2004)

As one of the few--possibly the only---female on this site, I just had to throw in my two cents worth. I don't know enough about specs and technicalities...yada, yada, yada... of cars to hold up in an argument. But I do know this. My GTO is the sweetest driving, most solid, powerful vehicle I've ever owned. I'm 39yrs old, so I've owned a few, although, the only other 'muscle car' I've owned was a 1986 Trans Am. You couldn't pay me enough money to drive a mustang. They're a dime a dozen. When I started looking for a new vehicle, I knew I wanted something with a lot of power that would turn heads. I considered the RX8, but when the GTO came out and I started doing research, and then test-drove one, I knew it had to be the one. I like the mild styling, but even with that said, it's just different enough for people to say, "What the heck was that?" when they see it go by. I can't tell you how many people have pulled up next to me at a stoplight and started asking me questions and giving me compliments. I actually considered getting my windows tinted _way_ past legal, just cuz people were giving me a complex. I found myself wanting to say, "Take a picture!" at every stoplight. And like I said elsewhere, I agree with Larry. I've yet to have anyone challenge me at a red light... even being a girl. I agree with whoever it was that said everyone has their own opinions and likes what they like for their own reasons. And what _is_ with the guy who's on here and doesn't like GTO's?? I hate mustangs, so why would I go to a mustang forum and start running my mouth? And he's worried about people of a like mind that hang around together???!!! Hmmmm...gee, it'd be an awfully lonely world if we all just did our own thing and never had anything in common with anyone....
Okay...I'm done. I think.


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## Redline (Aug 10, 2004)

Bishop TX, 

Holy **** I am sick of people racing in magazines... well my car does 0-60 in 4.6 seconds... well thats great but races aren't zero to sixty... a real race is letting the car push its limits and then living by the seat of your pants...

and how many times have you ever been on a slalom or a skid pad... how many car owners ever race on a slalom or skid pad?

That is like racing on a dyno...

As for finding a S2000 or 350Z faster then a GTO good luck... they are not even in the smae league, its like compareing a Vette to a Viper, sure a Vette can be made faster then a Viper, but in the end the one guy still owns a viper... there are a handful of modified rice buckets on earth that can beat a GTO but no matter how you look at it, they own a 4 banger honda/nissan that is about reliable as a mexican rocket ship... Any car can be made fast but not any car can be a GTO... It is a certain prestige to own a goat, you dont see a GTO every 30 ft like you do 350s and S2000s... Im not saying the GTO is better then every car out there, butits still one hell of a car and better then most cars out there while you still get 30 MPG out of your 346 V8 :shutme


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## Firehawk (Sep 9, 2004)

I've been reading these posts and have come to the same conclusion as some others. I thought this was a forum to promote the "goat" whoops my age is showing. Anyway I don't have one yet but have driven one and I must say it is damn impressive. ( I have owned 3 older ones plus many other brands) I have had muscle cars or whatever you want to call them since I was 16. I'll give you 5 old GTO's for one new one. The old ones were fast and still are as long as you go in a straight line. Don't try to stop or run the corners because only God new where you might end up.
The only thing I would of liked on the first year back was some kind of hood scoop. I know many of you don't want to hear that but my reasoning was simple, every year GTO had one or 2 of them, from 64 to 74 even though the last few years weren't really considered GTO's by most purists. Kinda like a trade mark of sorts, same as the side markings which did make it back.

Ah yes I take offense to anyone knowing why I or anyone else buys a certain car...any car. I did not know there were so many phycologists out there. To say someone buys a certain car because they are having a mid-life crisis or any other kind of crisis tells me that you don't and never will understand a true car enthusiast. You are either born one or become one but age my dear bonehead has nothing to do with it.

Cars for me are fun and I like many brands and styles because they all have cool features and some have not so good features but I guess that's why we have so many brands & styles.

And for those that can remember or read books, the original GTO was similar. It was a Pontiac Tempest with a beefed up drive train and the GTO emblem stuck on it. So on that note let's enjoy it and hope they keep it around...so we can mod the hell out of it :cool 

Also, I can honestly say every car I bought new in the past 25 years should have cost less.  Get over it.


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## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

lisatw151 said:


> ...And like I said elsewhere, I agree with Larry. I've yet to have anyone challenge me at a red light... even being a girl.


Funny you should say "Even being a girl" -- My wife took the GTO to her work the other day. Was I worried that she'd crash or scratch it? NO! I was worried that someone would come up to her at a stop light and she wouldn't beat em!

--Larry


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## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

GTO TOO said:


> ... ( That said mine is Torrid ' arrest me' RED )



I've always heard it as "Pull me over Red" the statistics I heard is that red cars get the most tickets. Hope you got your Escort properly mounted!  


---Larry


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## lisatw151 (Sep 8, 2004)

I just wish I could get my hubby to 'worry' about things like that. He was against my getting the car and has only driven it one time. He says he has no interest in it. ???!!!


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## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

lisatw151 said:


> I just wish I could get my hubby to 'worry' about things like that. He was against my getting the car and has only driven it one time. He says he has no interest in it. ???!!!


???? Not interested? Have you taken a pulse reading lately? Sure he's alive???? My lovely wife didn't quite understand before "we" got the car, but she's amused as I am about all the attraction the car gets. She's even learned to sit back in the seat now, so I quit hearing "Ow! My neck!" when it jerks her head back.  

---Larry


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## lisatw151 (Sep 8, 2004)

yeah...I know...I've been tempted to check his pulse. Story of my life...but for a different forum!


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## Elliotness (Oct 8, 2004)

1COOLPC said:


> But it's a better overall car than any of those because for those who want a V8 engine the only competition it has is the Cobra and one day in that car and you will be crying for some build quality.


FLAMSUIT ON

Okay, I had to register and respond. Reading this dribble just got me edgy. The GTO is an awesome car but are you kidding me. You are telling me that the build quality on the GTO is SSSSooooooo much greater then the Cobra... Better, probably but lightyears ahead, NO. The GTO has a very nice interior. I imagine it rides really well on the road as well (can't make that determination as I haven't been in one). 

Your comment about spending a day in a 03 Cobra. Does that come from your personal experience or does it come from a mag. If it comes from _personal experience  _ tell me what is so much better about the GTO. I imagine if you are a big person you won't like the Cobra. There is not alot of legroom for passengers in the back. If your statement is magazine inspired I'm not interested. Every mag has an opinion it usually evolves around:

BMW, (insert your Euro car here) = Great 
Everyone else, (insert U.S. car here) = Garbage 

Bottom line is the GTO is a very nice American car. :agree It can seat 4 comfortably and it has a great deal of power as well. It's a rice killer for sure.  But the cobra is what it is, an absolute beast couple of mods and BTFU. It has an awesome interior IMO. The interior isn't as "new age" as the GTO but it suits me just fine.

_After all I didn't buy this car so people would appreciate the interior._

**************But Most people love the interior*******************

I bought the car so people could appreciate my license plate and taillights.

*************Most people really like my plates and taillights********


Oh, and for that ill advised comment about cars in the 50K range competing with the GTO are you kidding. I'll give you 2. A 04 Cobra can be bought for the same price as the GTO it is more than competitive. Here's another in your own GM line. I priced a C5 yesterday for around 55K. Are you telling me the GTO is lightyears ahead of the Cobra and the Vette. Maybe the interior but.............. :shutme 

FLAMESUIT OFF


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## Elliotness (Oct 8, 2004)

1COOLPC said:


> Fair enough but it just strikes me, myself, as peculiar to participate in a discussion forum for a topic that a person isn't interested in. I guess I should say that it's just not something I would do (Join a Mustang forum for instance.) and I am genuinely curious at others' motivation to do so.


What do you mean. We are all car enthusiasts. The GTO is intended to be a performance car is it not? I come here to talk to you and other enthusiats about cars. I can't allow people to come in here and try to misinform anyone.

Ex. from a statement I found on this board.

Stock for stock Cobra Vs. GTO is a drivers race.... BS

Kinda reminds me of the Iragi minister of information and al-jazeera television.

OUT


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## Elliotness (Oct 8, 2004)

That's funny.





LarryM said:


> Funny you should say "Even being a girl" -- My wife took the GTO to her work the other day. Was I worried that she'd crash or scratch it? NO! I was worried that someone would come up to her at a stop light and she wouldn't beat em!
> 
> --Larry


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## HOT GOAT (Oct 5, 2004)

*Gto Looks*

I am old enough to have purchased a 64 GTO when they were new. If you are going to tag something with a retro name at least make it resemble it in some way.  :cool


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## HOT GOAT (Oct 5, 2004)

Could be right, but I am in the old category, and the name GTO brings back memories from the 60's lots of us baby boomers wanting to take one last fling, but I would like it to at least resemble the GTO of old.
HOT GOAT


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2004)

I agree with Lisa. Everywhere you go there's Mustangs, 350'Z's, Q 35's and RX8's like they are giving them away. My 04' GTO is the only GTO I have ever seen on the road! Everywhere I go, I get nothing but praise for the car. People come up to me and say things like "Wow, that's a nice car. Sounds awesome. How does it feel to drive that mean machine. How much HP it has? Wow that's mean." Stuff like that. At valet parking guys say "Man, that thing feels different. It must fly on the highway." Kids come up to me and want to see and touch the car. I don't need people to tell such things for me to like my 04'. Once you get upclose and drive the 04' GTO like I do everyday you like it more each day. I bought the GTO for me to enjoy. 

On the other hand, I agree it needs some bells and whistles to sell in the US. I know that it is a Monaro coming to the USA. It is actually an import coming to a saturated market. From a businees point of view there only three ways to make money. First, you make something cheaper than anybody else. GTO is not that. Second, you make something better than anybody else. This car is an achievement but not alone. Third, do something new or different that nobodyelse does. They did just that or so they thought they did. They brought an outstanding 350 hp to the US market hoping to outclass and overpower the competition; and they did, except that you can only tell by a very discreet side emblem that says simply GTO/ 5.7 litre. 

As a muscle car the 04' does very well except in looks. It is a good looking car but has nothing to stand out unless you come up close to it. You can make out a Mustang 10 miles away. Same with a Corvette, an RX 8, a 350Z. In that respect, the 04' has stealth. You don't see it coming. You hear it but you don't see it. That's different in Australia where it is a national pride. Here in the USA I concede it needs more looks to be more appealing. The way the airintake is designed is the right way. It does not need a ram air scoop but ram air looks more impressive. It does not need side vents but it would look much better and would help cool the car for CAI modifications. They should have known we all want to do that. Now, without side vents, I am reluctant to go CAI. It does not need a skyview but it would certainly look much better. 17" wheels are all you need but 18" rear and 17" front wheels would look much better. The exhaust system is great and you don't need to go out and get a Borla.

The GTO seats 4 and I have 2 kids. I only drive automatic. I don't see any other "domestic" muscle car with 350 hp that seats 4 and is automatic around. Don't worry about Cobra's. Let the 05's and Corvettes take care of them. On the same line as Lisa's there's plenty Mustangs, Q35's, 350 Z's and Crossfires around to keep us busy. When you see a Cobra wave goodbye with all 05' fingers. They are in for a surprise soon. 

If you still not satisfied, the GMpartsdirect.com part number for the upcoming 05' hood will be 921667780. 

All in all the 04's did not sell and that's just because of looks. The bottom line is that the 04' is missing some mating call feature in looks only. Holden and Pontiac have learned and adapted to the laws of evolution. The 04' version is out the window and the 05' will replace it. Right decision? It all depends on price for if it is too expensive it will not sell in numbers in the present economy. In that respect Ford has the advantage in its domestic production flexibility. They make all different kinds of Mustangs and the Cobra as the flag bearer. Pontiac relies on only one model to do it all mainly because the Australian platform cannot deliver quantity and options. They are now testing the markets and expanding according to projections. A low priced 5.7 L and a well built unsinkable 6.0 L could be a winning combination; but, they are not capable to diversify due to shortcomings in the australian production platform. Holden, the australian GM subsidiary, is not capable of competing with Ford. While Ford's brittish Jaguar is going down the tubes, GM's australian Holden may actually be a success if it can keep production costs and shipping costs below what it cost to produce the car here in the US and still be competitive in price as well as options. Quality is not in question.


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