# Alternator belt.....disappeared



## Chazz (Mar 8, 2010)

I've got the Philadelphia Experiment going on under the hood of my Goat. Phantoms and disappearances 

I was about to try some methods to combat the fuel phantoms I've been having, but the car's been dead. I had fixed a minor issue with the new fuse box, and after I got everything plugged back together, the car wouldn't start. The solenoid would make a horrible whirring noise and not catch the flywheel, so I checked to make sure I didn't fudge something while messing with the fuse box. Nope, it's good. That was a couple weeks ago. I was troubleshooting again a few nights ago, and I noticed the voltmeter was reading really low - well duh, low battery. Charged it for a while, tried to start the car, and nothing. Went to bed frustrated.

Got home from work today, went out in the garage and tried to start the car again (definition of insanity), but it actually cranked over. I was able to get it started with a few pumps on the accelerator, and I got out and looked under the hood to see how it looked.


Uh.....the alternator belt (V-belt) was missing. I killed the ignition, and looked around under the hood. No pieces or traces of it anywhere.....it's like it snapped off and disappeared on the road somewhere, clean and tidy.

Studying the pulleys that correspond to the alternator, it looks to me like the alternator pulley is not exactly in-line with the pulley on the crankshaft. The alternator pulley sticks out a little too far, maybe about a half inch, past the crankshaft pulley. I assume this would not be too good, especially at a couple thousand RPMs.

What's the fix for this (besides getting a new belt, haha)? Alter the alternator's positioning? (Different bracket?) Shim the crankshaft pulley out a tad? Or am I even on the right track?

This is the alternator I have: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pwm-47294
Engine is a 1966 421. I've got the Powermaster alternator on the same bracket that was holding the original alternator.

Here's a couple pics, if it would help (click to enlarge):


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*haha*

I JUST came in from the garage after ANOTHER 5 hour stint with that (45 hours and running, now) SOB'ing #[email protected]@&****** F'N bracket(s). This excreta is getting OLD, now!!!!! The crankshaft and water pump pulleys line dead up. The piece of shi* alternator and power steering brackets MUST be either: 1) bent, or 2) pieces of shi*!- I opted for solution #2 (appropriately named). The idiot things are in the right spots, but cocked off to the sides. I have spent at LEAST 45 hours shimming and fumbling, and tightening and loosening and just generally fighting this foolish thing. Now that I got it seemingly aligned (until you look at it the next day), the alternator bearings are starting to screech when I punch it. How convenient that it goes out now that I'm ready to go for a good cruise? All you can do is a little yoga and clear your mind before you get into it. That's my best advice. Shim the bracket. P.S. Take a real good look at your power steering bracket alignment also, and take a handful of downers and a quart of whiskey to ease the pain!  (P.S.S. I too, have fuel phantoms, and live in Tejas 455cid)


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Sometimes, a moderate amount of Woodford's Reserve helps. If on a budget, Evan Williams is hard to beat.


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## Chazz (Mar 8, 2010)

Ha, if I drank in response to the problems I've been having with this car, I'd be an alcoholic. It's always something. Whittling away problems only to uncover new ones, re-doing half-a$$ed work done by previous owners, and all just learning as I go along.....not an experienced mechanic by far.

It's all part of the fun. That's what I keep telling myself. :willy:


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I've been through a lot of cars that were hacked and re-hacked by previous owners/'mechanics". Always a rough road. BUT, when you're done, you will end up with a reliable, solid car you can drive anywhere and depend on. Keep the faith.


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## Chazz (Mar 8, 2010)

I'm gonna go get a new belt today after work. But does anyone think the alternator pulley and crank pulley are off enough to cause a problem? If so, is it safe to shim the crank pulley out a tad? I assume if I shim the crank pulley, I'll have to shim the power steering pump pulley the same amount.....so that I don't run into the same issue with THAT.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

No, you can't shim out the crank pulley. You may be able to change it , but no shims.....bad ju-ju with that. Something is off with your alternator mounting or mounting hardware. It's a Rubix Cube of brackets, spacers, bolts, and not easily figured out from scratch if you are new to this. Is there any club momber close by with a Pontiac you could look at personally to see what's wrong? Even a small amount of mis-alignment is not going to work out. My bet is that you may have mis-matched pulleys (early and late).


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## Miami Ragtop (Feb 15, 2011)

Looks to me like your pulley on alternator is out by the width if the second bracket bolted to the back of the alternator. I don't have a 421 but according to the "Pontiac Restoration Guide" there was only one bracket from block to the alternator. Looks like in photo you have a bracket that bolts near the temperature sensor on the top of block. My 389 does not have that second bracket. You may want to check if the second is needed. That could be your alignment problem.


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## Chazz (Mar 8, 2010)

Miami Ragtop said:


> Looks to me like your pulley on alternator is out by the width if the second bracket bolted to the back of the alternator. I don't have a 421 but according to the "Pontiac Restoration Guide" there was only one bracket from block to the alternator. Looks like in photo you have a bracket that bolts near the temperature sensor on the top of block. My 389 does not have that second bracket. You may want to check if the second is needed. That could be your alignment problem.


That's interesting, I didn't even think of that. I DO have a small washer on the engine-side of the bottom alternator bolt. I guess I just assumed the two brackets were normal. If only one is necessary, that might be my issue.

No messing with the crank pulley, got it. Glad I asked.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*bric-a-brackets*

When my '66 still had the 326, it too had one alternator bracket (attached to the thermostat housing stud, with no rear brace). The 455 in it now has a different bracket attached to the water pump, but still no rear brace. Come to think of it, the 326's power steering bracket was slightly off, and that had a very impressive and substantial bracket (much better than the 455's). The alignment can be very deceiving. (My laser eye has been reduced to a 10 watt light bulb!). On a brighter note, my alternator is no longer squealing. Will run it a little bit before I put the new alt. on it, just to make sure all is copesthetic.


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## Chazz (Mar 8, 2010)

Alright, so I did some measuring and poking around with the alternator setup. Couple things I learned:

-The brackets do not affect inward/outward alignment, as they are too flexible. With the bolt on the bottom snug and secure, the brackets need to get bent back slightly in order to fit properly....and they don't push the alternator forward. So the inward/outward alignment is determined by the bottom bolt area. I looked at a bunch of different pictures online, and it seems that some cars have both brackets, others just have the one on the water pump. I found one picture of a GTO with just the rear bracket. I guess I'll keep them both, if they aren't causing any problems.
-I pulled the Powermaster and compared it to the old one. Turns out they are ALMOST identical: the pulleys are the same; the Powermaster's fan is one millimeter further from the body, due to the fan plate installed; the bodies are the same; and the bolt holes on either end of the Powermaster have a couple more millimeters of mass than the old alternator. So essentially.....they're pretty close. Not off enough to cause any problems, I don't think.
-I found a washer on the bottom bolt that I think was just a spacer for the old alternator. I originally had the Powermaster installed with that washer, but I just installed it without and it still fits nice and snug, so I think I'm going to leave it off.

Jesus. It's always the simple solution, isn't it? I eyeballed it with the belt installed, and it looks okay. I think I'm just so used to something being wrong on this car that I assumed there was some crap I had to fix here, when it was actually okay (other than that washer/spacer). I guess I'll just drive it and see if anything screws up.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Brackets*

Easy-breezy. How's your power steering alignment?


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## Chazz (Mar 8, 2010)

Power steering alignment is laser-straight. It's definitely an issue with the alternator; I have a couple old 12si's sitting around (the new Powermaster is a 12si), so I installed one of those on the car and it fit perfectly. So my eyes aren't playing tricks on me. :confused

I did some mixing and matching parts with the Powermaster and that old 12si, and I found that the Powermaster's fan is thicker, and the spacer that keeps the fan away from the body casting is also thicker. I called Powermaster today and the tech suggested that I can mix and match parts as need be, but to keep in mind that their thicker fan will cool better for high RPM and race applications. If I can't get the Powermaster fan and pulley to fit right, I'll probably end up using the fan off the old 12si instead. I guess we'll see.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I fought for a long time on my 69 getting the belts aligned. My problems were compounded by a combination of several factors:

1) My 69 was an early-production car with the short-snout water pump.
2) I'm running a standard-snout aftermarket "high flow" pump now.
3) It's a factory A/C car
4) I'm running an SFI-certified harmonic balancer which would not allow the original A/C compressor drive pulley to be used.

All of that conspired to create 'much fun' in the old Bear cave.

I finally figured out a way to make myself a tool to help align the pulleys. It's a verified straight piece of aluminum bar stock with two arcs cut out of it. The arcs have different radii for using on different diameter pulleys. Placing the arc down into the grooves of one pulley will automatically align the tool perpindicular to the pulley axis. If the other end of the bar is centered in the grooves of an adjacent pulley, then you know they are aligned. If not, then you know which direction one of them has to move and by how much. I'll attach a couple of photos. The second one shows sort of how to use it, but in the photo the belt is installed. To actually use the tool the belt must be removed so you can settle the tool down into the groove. For me, using this tool was a whole lot more accurate than trying to use my (admittedly ancient) eyeballs. 

Bear


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## Chazz (Mar 8, 2010)

Bear: I wonder if I could do the same thing with a sturdy straight edge square.....I'll try when I get home.

Good news is that I think I've more or less solved the problem. I found an alternator and starter repair shop in town, so I ran by there with the Powermaster before work today and sought their assistance. The guy gave me a shorter spacer for no charge (I traded him the one I had, ha), and upon a quick install to eyeball the difference.....it looks about spot on now.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Chazz said:


> Bear: I wonder if I could do the same thing with a sturdy straight edge square.....I'll try when I get home.


A straight edge might work if you're very careful. Using that bar stock with some thickness to it, combined with the arcs I cut into it cause it to "automatically" square itself with the pulley groove. When I lay it down in there and put a little downward pressure on it, it's rock-solid with no wiggle.

Bear


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