# Engine options



## Caster1 (Sep 1, 2018)

Hello all,

New member here. Recently purchased a restored 66 GTO. Car is in super condition, unfortunately after a moderate run through the gears last Saturday, she began to knock and oil psi dropped (from 60 to 40). Drained the oil and found lots of metal and copper.... 

Engine is a 1970 400.

She is parked as I weigh my options. I'll start by saying, I am not an engine mechanic. I am considering the following.

1 - have a local engine rebuilder go through the bottom end. Find what is wrong, flush and replace what is needed. I'm having trouble finding a local "Pontiac specialist" in my area, SE NC.

2 - Locate a builder in region. I've found a guy 3 hrs away with a great reputation. There is even the potential of a 428 replacement engine in the mix with this option.

3 - Go all out with an engine from Butler or Central VA machine. They could use my block, heads (edelbrock RPM) etc. and put together a super goat engine. Obviously this is the high end option$$$


Looking for opinions and advise to get her back up and running strong. I know Butler has a stellar reputation and I have heard good things about CVM. Butler is about 11 hrs away, CVM is about 4 hrs.

I am new to the forum, constructive advise is sincerely appreciated.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

*DO NOT USE CVM IN VIRGINIA!! * We have a complete thread on how he screwed one of our members BIG TIME and others also chimed in with their bad experiences. :00/o:

Glad you got a "restored" GTO - NOT. Bet the seller knew there was a problem? Have you called him up to discuss it with him and see if he is willing to cover some of the rebuild costs? He probably won't of course, but I would sure put him in the hot seat. :yesnod:

Use the engine you have. Take it to a machine shop and let them pull it apart and locate the source of the problem. The more parts you can re-use, the easier it will be on your wallet UNLESS you simply want to go with a different build/combo.

I have heard that Butler is really backed up with engine builds, so it may take some time to get it rebuilt and yes, $$$$.


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## Caster1 (Sep 1, 2018)

Thanks for the info on CVM. It is appreciated.

I see you are in NC. Anyone that you would recommend for the engine work? I'm still weighing options.

Thanks


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Caster1 said:


> Thanks for the info on CVM. It is appreciated.
> 
> I see you are in NC. Anyone that you would recommend for the engine work? I'm still weighing options.
> 
> Thanks


I use Greg's Auto Machine out of King's Mountain. He is old school and builds engines of all kinds from stock to blown, flathead to race engines. I know he has customers that come from other states to get work done by him. He (Greg) and his brother (Gary) have been doing it about 40 years. He did all the machine work on my brother's 360 Mopar and did all the machine work on my 455. He currently has my '73 400 block which he is checking out to see if it is useable - bought off Craigslist. He is also working on my buddies 1990 LT1. He is always building something interesting and I visit to see what he's toying with. He always takes the time to let me watch as he works and explains "stuff" as to what is going on. :thumbsup:


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## Caster1 (Sep 1, 2018)

Thanks for the info!


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## Nicholas (Jan 16, 2017)

I'm not sure exactly what I would do in that case. It's not like you have the original engine to that car. If you did, it would be a no brainer with a rebuild. I think I might be leaning towards looking into a 455. Maybe one already rebuilt or one that is very rebuildable. These motors are out there. Just finding the right one and/or a good rebuilder like you mention. I often think about taking out the original 400 motor in my '71 GTO and putting in a nicely built 455. Something with much more power. If it blows, so what. But, haven't done it yet. I'm always looking for 455's at local shows/flea markets. Want to avoid shipping cost and I would want to see the motor in person. Best wishes with whatever you decide.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Nicholas said:


> I'm not sure exactly what I would do in that case. It's not like you have the original engine to that car. If you did, it would be a no brainer with a rebuild. I think I might be leaning towards looking into a 455. Maybe one already rebuilt or one that is very rebuildable. These motors are out there. Just finding the right one and/or a good rebuilder like you mention. I often think about taking out the original 400 motor in my '71 GTO and putting in a nicely built 455. Something with much more power. If it blows, so what. But, haven't done it yet. I'm always looking for 455's at local shows/flea markets. Want to avoid shipping cost and I would want to see the motor in person. Best wishes with whatever you decide.


Why would you look for a 455 when you already have a good & known engine that can be easily brought up to 461CI with a stroker kit? A no-brainer in my book. Hard to find a good 455 and most will have large chamber heads which you most likely won't use. So all you basically are buying is the short block and you have to hope it passes magnafluxing inspection and is not so beat on that you could need extra work to get it back to spec.

Stroker kits are the most cost effective and you get forged rods/pistons plus use the smaller main journal size of the 400CI and smaller rod journals to fit the Chevy rods = bigger HP/Torque and more RPM's with greater safety. :thumbsup:


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## Nicholas (Jan 16, 2017)

Good question PontiacJim. I guess I am somewhat fearful of stroking my numbers matching engine and having it blow up. I'm thinking with another motor, I don't care if I launch it. Maybe another 400 would be the way to go instead of a 455.


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## Caster1 (Sep 1, 2018)

I'm waiting for a some quotes from Butler. Looking at this as an opportunity to get the right build in the goat...


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Nicholas said:


> Good question PontiacJim. I guess I am somewhat fearful of stroking my numbers matching engine and having it blow up. I'm thinking with another motor, I don't care if I launch it. Maybe another 400 would be the way to go instead of a 455.


Yep, a 400 is easier to find, but still takes looking, and the stroker kit will accomplish the bigger cubes/HP/TQ with all good forged parts and the smaller mains/rod journals for a little less worry at higher RPM twisting. Butler has a good deal on the kits and they fully balance them which is a plus. Just build for around 9.0 or slightly more compression with iron heads if you want to run on pump gas. (You can go more if you live at a higher altitude where the air is less dense and more compression is needed to compensate)


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Consider looking into Len Williams engines if you want to just 'plug and play'. He has an excellent reputation in Pontiac crate engines ready to go, and is downright reasonable. Reviews of his engines can be found on the AMES Performance Years forums. Since you don't have a #'s engine anyway, it is certainly an option. I think his 455's go for about $3500--$4000 ready to run.


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## Caster1 (Sep 1, 2018)

Guys ,

I really appreciate the replies. I'm still gathering information. Should have quote in hand today from Butler. Butler will be the high end option. The cost is stout but I believe it would be a top shelf engine option. The thing that bothers me most is wait time. 3-4 months for a short block, 5-6 months for a turnkey engine. That is a long time for the Goat to sit...  


A local machine shop has given me a quote. They have a good local reputation and have done a few Pontiacs, but the shop is dirty (like really dirty) and that scares me a bit. My preference is a Pontiac specialist.

I will look into Len Williams. 

During my research, I keep seeing engines from a company called "blue monkey". Ant feedback or experience with these guys?


Again, thanks. It is great to have a resource like this forum.


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## cij911 (Oct 25, 2017)

geeteeohguy said:


> Consider looking into Len Williams engines if you want to just 'plug and play'. He has an excellent reputation in Pontiac crate engines ready to go, and is downright reasonable. Reviews of his engines can be found on the AMES Performance Years forums. Since you don't have a #'s engine anyway, it is certainly an option. I think his 455's go for about $3500--$4000 ready to run.


I agree with Geeteeohguy..... Len Williams should be at the top of your list 455 Long Block

Just for reference / comparison, the quotes I have to rebuild my heads are almost have what his complete motor costs (w/o core fee). While I agree and respect PontiacJim's opinion on stroking the 400 to 461 as a viable and affordable option, unless you are doing all the work yourself, it will cost you as much if not more than buying a complete motor from Len Williams.

455 vs 461 cu in. - I doubt most would be able to tell the difference. Most of the serious horsepower will be made / lost in the head.


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## Caster1 (Sep 1, 2018)

Guys,

I talked to Len Williams AND received my quote from Butler today. Yesterday I spent probably 30 mins on the phone with a fellow at Butler and today about the same time on the phone with Len. The Butler quote is for a 461 stroker (turnkey), using my block, heads, intake and carb and includes break-in and dyno test (cool to have that sheet). I talked to Len about both a "stock" 400 build using my block, heads and intake and about a stroker build. The Butler build should come in around 500hp and 580 lb ft tq. Len was talking numbers a little lower (stroker) at around 425/500, not quite turnkey (I would install distributor/carb/all bolt ons). 

To be honest, Len came off as more knowledgeable. The guy at butler knew his stuff but Len was straight up and on point.

I'm trying to justify spending 2.5 times the money and waiting twice as long for a Butler build. Is it really that much better or is there some "I've got a Butler" markup??


Once again, I appreciate the insight that you guys have shown me.


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## My65goat (Jul 26, 2017)

I'm also in the market for a engine build. I was just checking out Lens Williams link. This might be a serious option for me. My plans had been to get a stroker kit for the 400 block and top end kit from Butler with aluminum heads but it would cost almost as much as a complete Butler stroker.....around 10 grand, just don't know if I want to spend that much. My second option was to get forged pistons and rods and use the stock crank but that is almost as much as the stroker kit.....But now seeing Len Williams 400 aluminum head for less than 8 grand, I might have to call them and speak about it, tell them my trans and rear gears and see what they say. 
Thanks


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

Caster1 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> New member here. Recently purchased a restored 66 GTO. Car is in super condition, unfortunately after a moderate run through the gears last Saturday, she began to knock and oil psi dropped (from 60 to 40). Drained the oil and found lots of metal and copper.... <img src="http://www.gtoforum.com/images/smilies/frown.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Frown" class="inlineimg" />
> 
> ...


I'm not sure on your knowledge of the Pontiac motor . If I were you I would read as many thread you can on this forum and PY. I would also buy Rocky Romanalli and the best book on the market Pontiac v8 by Jim Hands( crazy money as no longer in press but you can find that used). I think my spelling on rocky last name may be incorrect. After you get them spend a week reading the forums and these books and you will fell better taking it to local shops . The Pontiac motor is different than the Chevy buta good builder with a CLEAN shop can do a great job.This is what I did and found a local shop who built a fantastic motor for s lot less than Williams or Butler with close to the same power. I just don't see spending over 10000/12000 on a motor that can be built with all the best forged parts fora lot less. I know some won't agree and I wish you the best. I just think that educating yourself will make you feel better with your decisions no matter what it is . Doug


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## Caster1 (Sep 1, 2018)

Thanks!


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## cij911 (Oct 25, 2017)

I have a lot of trouble beating the Len Williams price and quality. IMHO, you won't find a better deal - $5K for a built 455 and you get to keep your stock, numbers matching motor wrapped in a bag. As I have stated before, most would never be able to tell the difference power wise between a 461 & a 455. If you want crazy power, then get the 455 built bottom and aluminum heads.

Have fun!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

cij911 said:


> I have a lot of trouble beating the Len Williams price and quality. IMHO, you won't find a better deal - $5K for a built 455 and you get to keep your stock, numbers matching motor wrapped in a bag. As I have stated before, most would never be able to tell the difference power wise between a 461 & a 455. If you want crazy power, then get the 455 built bottom and aluminum heads.
> 
> Have fun!


The 455 short block is said to be a 400 block fitted with crank/rods to make a 455. Whereas the 455 long block is a 455 block. I would not opt for the factory prepped rods, so you would want to step up to the eagle crank/rods which puts you at $5300. Then there will be shipping which is not cheap. Adding all the items not included on the engine, you could still see 7-8K depending if you used what you had on hand or went with new along with the new engine. Now should there be a problem, and Len seems to have a good rep, you would then have to ship it back for re-work and ship it back to yourself. If you have a local guy, you save any shipping costs and you can go directly to him with your problem - and that to me is worth saving all the shipping and grief problems IF they should arise.

The 425HP with 9.25 compression is a good figure I like. 

There is a difference between a 400 block based 460 and a 455 block based 462. First of course is the problem with the rear main seals. Seems the 400 has less problems. Next is the journal size. The smaller 400 mains are a better choice for higher RPM's if you choose to spin higher. On the rods, you can get stock or go with the smaller Chevy journals based on crank/rod choice - again, safer at higher RPM's with the smaller journals if you want an engine to wind tight and take advantage of some of the aftermarket high flowing aluminum heads & intakes.

So apples and oranges until you know what power range & RPM's you want out of the engine, and whether you plan on iron heads or aftermarket aluminum.

For fun and _I am no expert on pricing_, but as an example, lets go with a Butler stroker kit for the 400C1 which makes it a 460. Cost is $1900. I had my iron heads rebuilt with all new and 3 angle valve job - $1100. So we are at $3000 for rotating assembly & heads. Lets select a Comp Cams cam/lifters kit - $200. Now $3200. Stock type pushrods - $40.00 Cam bearings - $35.00. Total now is $3275. Mellings oil pump & screen - $55.00. Hardened oil pump shaft - $29.00. Felpro Gasket set - $120.00 Total now is $3475. New balancer - $50.00 Total now is $3525.00 Timing gear/chain - $55.00 (double roller). Grand total - $3580.00

OK, if I got this right, it looks like I have all the parts for the 460CI shortblock assembly & heads. Cost looks to be about $3600.00.

What is needed is a 400CI block/engine which I will figure on about $500, so up to $4100. Then boring/honing the 8 cylinders - $200. Add hot tank & magnaflux block - $100. We are up to $4400. Need to install cam bearings & freeze plugs (55.00?)

So with what we have, it appears to be around $4455.00 for our 460CI shortblock with the owner doing assembly and adding the water pump. distributor, intake, and carb of choice. Looks about $840 less than Len Williams plus shipping costs. Keep in mind that any parts purchased typically have shipping costs attached, so the do-it-yourself guy may find that the savings is minimal as compared to buying an assembled engine - and no hassles of having to do the assembly. The real loss in pricing may be in the shipping, and of course, not having the engine builder right around the corner if something goes sour. 

Based on a stroked 460 CI as compared to the Len Williams 455 long block price, this price could be lowered or increased depending on what the owner wanted to re-use, ie valves, spring retainers, hypereutectic pistons instead of forged, forged I-beams instead of H-beams, etc. or increased with forged crank, milling block, line boring, aluminum heads, etc.. A stock 400CI would also lower the overall costs and perhaps get the price down closer to $3200 - $3500.

Just my opinion, of course. But building a Pontiac engine, no matter what the cubic inch, is not inexpensive as even I have found out - Ouch!. :thumbsup:


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## cij911 (Oct 25, 2017)

Shipping is a few hundred to Cali....So with the forged components, shipped you are are more like $5600 (most). OP has the additional items, distributor, carb, etc., so that should not add to the cost. Either way it is not cheap, but it is not $10K + either.


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## Nicholas (Jan 16, 2017)

PontiacJim said:


> The 455 short block is said to be a 400 block fitted with crank/rods to make a 455. Whereas the 455 long block is a 455 block. I would not opt for the factory prepped rods, so you would want to step up to the eagle crank/rods which puts you at $5300. Then there will be shipping which is not cheap. Adding all the items not included on the engine, you could still see 7-8K depending if you used what you had on hand or went with new along with the new engine. Now should there be a problem, and Len seems to have a good rep, you would then have to ship it back for re-work and ship it back to yourself. If you have a local guy, you save any shipping costs and you can go directly to him with your problem - and that to me is worth saving all the shipping and grief problems IF they should arise.
> 
> The 425HP with 9.25 compression is a good figure I like.
> 
> ...


This is a great thread that you created. A lot of info. I could read this stuff all day long. Thanks.
I looked at Butler and Len Williams motors. I think you get a lot of bang for the buck from Williams, but Butlers I'm sure are equally as good. The cost of shipping doesn't scare me away, but it does get my attention. I don't think I would mind it once, but what if something gets crazy and the motor has to go back?? You're stuck with shipping again, plus all the grief and aggravation. What about a 3rd time?? Possible but not probable?? That has a value to it. Putting that aside, me personally, it's more important to have my reputable engine rebuilder, close by. Someone I can drive to, speak with and even bring the motor back in my pickup truck, if need be. I know, some might not have this option, then you'll have to do something different. 
My oldest son is restoring I believe, a '78 Trans Am that came with a factory 403 Olds motor. I didn't know about this until it was done, but he shipped the motor to a specialized builder of Olds engines in I think Illinois. We have at least 4 what I believe are reputable engine builders in our area, so I asked why he did this?? Claims that he wanted someone who only does Olds engines. Didn't make sense to me, but his car and money. The motor was rebuilt, broken in and returned. Not quite in the car yet. He is happy with it thus far, but said he would never do it again. To far away and quite expensive. I asked about the warranty and he said there was one, but the motor would have to be shipped back. No thanks. Funny thing, the business closed up so this is a moot point. BTW, in re. to shipping, he thinks it was about $200.00 round trip from NY to Illinois, dock to dock, where the builder agrees to pick up the motor. Not a bad price at all. If not dock to dock, house to business, he thought it was about $700.00.


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## Caster1 (Sep 1, 2018)

Guys,

I've been away all weekend, just got back in.

I really appreciate the information. While on the road Friday I called Kaufman and actually spoke to Jeff, one of the owners. He was very helpful, took all the time I needed to answer all my questions and gave me a ball park quote over the phone based on my wants/needs. By the end of the day he had emailed me a quote. Came in just a bit under the "ballpark". On Monday I plan to call DCI (between Hurricane prep) and see what they offer.


Butler is very high (2.5 times as high as Williams and almost twice Kaufman) and by far the longest wait on an engine. 6 Months. Len Williams seems to be a very fair guy and super knowledgeable. Kaufman is higher than Williams but way under Butler. 


I wish I had a reputable Pontiac guy near me. If there is one, I have not found him. The closest is CVM (4hrs) and I have heard some back feedback on them from this forum.


The feedback is very useful, keep it coming...


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

Caster1 said:


> Guys,
> 
> I've been away all weekend, just got back in.
> 
> ...


I just don't understand why everyone think they need a "Pontiac" builder? The Pontiac motor is not that special snd if you spend a weekend reading a few books I mention you will be able to know if the builder is right for you. I would never have my motor built cross country and have to deal with shipping and the return if issues. These guy charge crazy prices because some don't feel it can be done locally. I say it can and if willing to get your hands dirty you can save thousands of dollars and have pride in what you did. I do wish all the best but read up and find a good local shop and be happy and put the money some where else, plus after reading you will understand it just a GM motor and you will know what's under your hood. Doug


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

dd68gto said:


> I just don't understand why everyone think they need a "Pontiac" builder? The Pontiac motor is not that special snd if you spend a weekend reading a few books I mention you will be able to know if the builder is right for you.


You are correct sir. However the reason that people look for Pontiac specific builders isn't so much because Pontiacs are special, it's because there are so many builders "out there" who, because 90% of their business is building chevys, semi-understandably tend to treat them "just like a chevy" which they most definitely are not. They make mistakes like leaving out that famous "hidden oil gallery plug" or thinking that the factory rocker system can be adjusted "just like a chevy". Someone who knows Pontiacs well tends to not make mistakes like that. 

I too prefer to build my own and do my own work --- although lately, mine has been "fighting me" to the point where I'm starting to get discouraged and question whether I really know anything or not... :frown3:

Bear


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## Caster1 (Sep 1, 2018)

I guess it is just a real want/desire to have the right engine in the 66. Everybody has their strengths and weaknesses in life. I spent 34 years making megawatts for the masses and have run two successful businesses (one was an "on the side" business while with the power co, I now run a fishing related customer based small business). I have a good understanding of mechanical things but I know and understand that I'm not an engine mechanic. I have looked locally and just have not found anyone that I trust to do the work. 

So, I want to find the right shop/guy to do the work. This and other forums have been most helpful in my search. 

Thanks again to all that have chimed in.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Caster1 said:


> Guys,
> 
> I've been away all weekend, just got back in.
> 
> ...


I was royally ripped off by Jim at CVMS along with Steve another member here, his pistons were installed backwards!
Southwest Engines in Berdoo did me a solid on the rebuild of my rebuild, the CVMS engine lasted a whole 311 miles before losing bearings and oil pressure.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

" I just don't understand why everyone think they need a "Pontiac" builder?..."


It's probably because of all the horror stories of Pontiac engine build failures, caused by shops where they didn't know Pontiac engines. 

I'm also a victim. A new shop opened in a town only 30 minutes from me. The shop sponsored & raced a T/F dragster. Their main machinist & engine builder was from CA, & supposedly had experience with engine building & T/F racing. 

So, I took them a 400 & a 350 to build for some mild bracket racing. To make a longer story short, both engines failed quickly, which caused us to miss most of that racing season. 

After that, I had the machine work done at a Chevy shop in another town, & did all the engine assembly myself. Switched to mostly 455's. I used cast rods, TRW forged pistons, and commercial crank kits, right out of the box. Never balanced anything. The TRW's were said to be the same weight as factory. 

Built several of these engines & raced 'em in several different bracket cars. They ran from high 12's to 11.80's & won lots of races. Never lost a single 455. But, I did use a rev limiter on every car, set at 5500 rpm. Those rev limiters saved every one of those engines, at least once, when they'd break a trans or rear end. No, they were not high power engines. Probably a little over 400hp & 500 torque. Shifted at 5000 rpm. 

The point is that from my reading & experience, I actually knew more about Pontiac engines than the T/F guy from CA. So I, along with others here, feel that is is very important to use a machinist/engine builder who has experience building Pontiac engines.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"... this price could be lowered...hypereutectic pistons instead of forged, forged I-beams instead of H-beams..."


I've probably expressed my opinion on these 2 options here before. But, I think I need to do it again. 

I strongly recommend against those "hypercast" pistons ! There have been numerous failures, due to not using enuff gap on the top rings. And, besides that, those pistons cost more than the L2359NF SP forged pistons.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-l2359nf

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-kb222-030/overview/make/pontiac 

Also, there have been lots of problems with those cheap RPM 5140 rods. Paul Carter has posted that almost every one he's seen needed the big end resized. This work will put the price of the 5140 rods up to about equal with the RPM H-beams, and you still have a weaker rod. 

Cliff Ruggles has posted that all the H-beam rods he's seen were VERY close to spec, and needed only pin fitting work, which is required on most any rod. 

So, my opinion is that the H-beams are the way to go. RPM H-beams are $400. 

http://www.racingpartsmaximum.com/sae4340steelhbeam-2.html

Eagle H-beams are usually around $480 for Pontiac length, but much closer to $400 for the 6.8" BBC stroker rods, used in the 4.25" stroker builds. 

https://thmotorsports.com/1399262-e...EQjUZjHyeWAQ4J1ksUg7T2fbGumC78UBoCbE4QAvD_BwE

Also, if you wanna buy the stroker assembly parts separately, you can buy Auto Tec pistons, & get the pin location where you need it, to get near zero deck height, without cutting extra material off the block deck. Another advantage is that the Auto Tec pistons are made from 4032 material, which has less expansion than the 2618 material that most stroker pistons are made from. These pistons require less piston to cyl wall clearance, which should be a plus for street engines. 

AutoTec High Quality, Precision Manufactured pistons

https://shanonsengineering.com/coll...ll-block-pontiac-400-428-455-flat-top-pistons

Again, this post reflects my opinion. I have no quarrel with others who have different opinions.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Caster1 said:


> Guys,
> 
> I talked to Len Williams AND received my quote from Butler today. Yesterday I spent probably 30 mins on the phone with a fellow at Butler and today about the same time on the phone with Len. The Butler quote is for a 461 stroker (turnkey), using my block, heads, intake and carb and includes break-in and dyno test (cool to have that sheet). I talked to Len about both a "stock" 400 build using my block, heads and intake and about a stroker build. The Butler build should come in around 500hp and 580 lb ft tq. Len was talking numbers a little lower (stroker) at around 425/500, not quite turnkey (I would install distributor/carb/all bolt ons).
> 
> ...


Caster, if you are wanting a track-only car, Butler has a great rep. If you are mainly street driving it, Williams has a great rep. He has been doing Pontiacs for over 30 years and many of his engines run a long, long, long time without issue. As a longtime GTO driver, I prefer reliability over maximum power. I rebuilt the 389 in my '65 37 years and 50,000 miles ago, and the 400 in my '67 30 years and 90,000 miles ago and both engines run just fine. But I don't push 500 HP. I do, however, drive my cars all over the place and have forever. What your driving needs are should guide your build. More power=less reliable and shorter engine life, as well as more fuel burned. It can also= more fun, though!


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

bigD said:


> " I just don't understand why everyone think they need a "Pontiac" builder?..."
> 
> 
> It's probably because of all the horror stories of Pontiac engine build failures, caused by shops where they didn't know Pontiac engines.
> ...


You make some great points but don't agree totally. If you read up ( the two books I mention) and read threads it can be built by local shops. I would bet 20 time more pontiacs are built by local shop than the big name guys. There is only a couple of quirks that need to be addressed and by educating yourself and asking the right question you will know if that is the right shop. The shop that did mine does mostly other brands ( most do ) but when I asked him if he can build a Pontiac he answered all the question . If the shop is clean and been building motor for many years ( would never have a new shop touch my motor unless I new him)why not save a couple thousand ? On the plus side also he is down the street if you have any issues not cross country. These seller all sound great until you have a problem which happens occasionally no matter who builds. I wish all the best. Doug


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

*dd68gto*: ".......and asking the right question you will know if that is the right shop. The shop that did mine does mostly other brands ( most do ) but when I asked him if he can build a Pontiac he answered all the question."

*PJ*: I am curious as hell, what are the "right" questions and what are the "right" answers????? :question:


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

PontiacJim said:


> *dd68gto*: ".......and asking the right question you will know if that is the right shop. The shop that did mine does mostly other brands ( most do ) but when I asked him if he can build a Pontiac he answered all the question."
> 
> *PJ*: I am curious as hell, what are the "right" questions and what are the "right" answers?????


Your being a jerk. grow up .


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

dd68gto said:


> Your being a jerk. grow up .


No, not really. Serious question. If that is your answer, then I have to assume you don't have the "right" questions let alone the answers and you might look in the mirror when you call someone a jerk - let alone tell them to grow up with a reply like that. 

Honestly, I did not know there were questions that would help to reveal a good machinist who can build a Pontiac engine from one who could not. So I am giving you the opportunity to share those questions for others to ask who don't know what questions to ask to get a handle on a shop that might be promising or one they should run from.

So.........what are some good questions to be asked and acceptable answers?


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

Like I said your being a jerk . I am not like you who post answer to every question and think your the only one with answers . As I stated if you read forum threads on building and this book by Jim Hands which I stated is not in print but can still be bought from some at a fair price you will know what to ask. The page I took a picture of in his book is first question I would ask a builder. If he knows that then we can talk. You see not only you have all the answers . My biggest issues is everyone thinks pontiac can only be built by the few big name guys who charge 10000 dollars for a street motor that with a little time cans be done for 1/2 that and you have pride in what you did. You see not every kid owns a number matching judge. . This is why our hobby is dying and especially pontiacs due to hoarder of parts and crazy prices being charge and being told only this guy can build a motor. . Go to bed now . Or better yet read up and you can tell us all how to build a Pontiac because we all know you can't wait. Doug


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

This is next page for you Jim.


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## cij911 (Oct 25, 2017)

Doug - I don't think Jim was trying to be a jerk, rather he was asking the same question I was afraid to ask.....I've never built a Pontiac motor before, but have no idea why it would be different than any other motor. So when you said just ask the "right questions", I wasn't sure what you were talking about [either]. I will try to find the book and do more research, as I would love to do it myself. If you have any specific pieces of information that I should consider or other sources, please let me know.

All the best

Chris


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

dd68gto said:


> Like I said your being a jerk . I am not like you who post answer to every question and think your the only one with answers . As I stated if you read forum threads on building and this book by Jim Hands which I stated is not in print but can still be bought from some at a fair price you will know what to ask. The page I took a picture of in his book is first question I would ask a builder. If he knows that then we can talk. You see not only you have all the answers . My biggest issues is everyone thinks pontiac can only be built by the few big name guys who charge 10000 dollars for a street motor that with a little time cans be done for 1/2 that and you have pride in what you did. You see not every kid owns a number matching judge. . This is why our hobby is dying and especially pontiacs due to hoarder of parts and crazy prices being charge and being told only this guy can build a motor. . Go to bed now . Or better yet read up and you can tell us all how to build a Pontiac because we all know you can't wait. Doug



LOL, you are an A-hole as well as a mindless idiot. What, this is about the third time you have changed your screen name and avatar? You are an instigator whose knowledge is less than a crap squeezed out by a single celled amoeba. LOL Generic comments with no factual basis to back it up and all the side stepping hidden in arrogant name calling to redirect a direct challenge to "put your money where your mouth is" seems to fall on your deaf ears because your aim is simply to stir up crap - must be lonely? wanna be? Chevy owner? So sad.

You can continue to change your screen name and avatar and fool most who have not been on this forum long enough to recognize the stink you carry - *which can't be changed.* Maybe some day *you* will grow up, but I highly doubt it. Run along and play with your computer version of hot wheels and dream about owning a real car while your mommy tucks you into bed and wipes your snotty nose - because you have been busted little man. :STFU:


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

PontiacJim said:


> dd68gto said:
> 
> 
> > Like I said your being a jerk . I am not like you who post answer to every question and think your the only one with answers . As I stated if you read forum threads on building and this book by Jim Hands which I stated is not in print but can still be bought from some at a fair price you will know what to ask. The page I took a picture of in his book is first question I would ask a builder. If he knows that then we can talk. You see not only you have all the answers . My biggest issues is everyone thinks pontiac can only be built by the few big name guys who charge 10000 dollars for a street motor that with a little time cans be done for 1/2 that and you have pride in what you did. You see not every kid owns a number matching judge. . This is why our hobby is dying and especially pontiacs due to hoarder of parts and crazy prices being charge and being told only this guy can build a motor. . Go to bed now . Or better yet read up and you can tell us all how to build a Pontiac because we all know you can't wait. Doug
> ...


You are a little confused. Been a member for 6 years never changed my name. I have made a total of 99 post and compared to you who has been here two less years than me with 4000. That's 4 post every day ? I do one every month? What else do you do ? Jim jim jim get help . I'm done and sorry I tried to help just a bet here that I'm a lot older than you and have owned pontiac before you were born . Doug


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

cij911 said:


> Doug - I don't think Jim was trying to be a jerk, rather he was asking the same question I was afraid to ask.....I've never built a Pontiac motor before, but have no idea why it would be different than any other motor. So when you said just ask the "right questions", I wasn't sure what you were talking about [either]. I will try to find the book and do more research, as I would love to do it myself. If you have any specific pieces of information that I should consider or other sources, please let me know.
> 
> All the best
> 
> Chris


Chris I'm sorry for this getting out of control. Anyone can go back and read any of my post. I have never had any problem and have even posted agreement on many of Jims post. But for what ever reason maybe he didn't like supper he attacked me . I really think you should get Jim Hands book Pontiac V8 . (This is the go to bible for Pontiac motors) It goes into great detail with pictures on the strength and weakness of the Pontiac motor . After you read it you will understand the motor and have the questions to ask a reputable shop . This book has become expensive to purchase due to no longer in print ( which tells us a sad story about our Pontiac ) but if you ask like I did you might find a very nice forum member to sell you one for 25 dollars . He was done with it and I had lost my copy. It even tell you how different combination will effect your power curve which is huge.. It review many of the builder talked about on this thread /forum. Any one who has built a Pontiac will tell you its fantastic. I wish you the best I'm done . I will let Jim add a few more to his 4000 plus posts ( avg more than 4 every day for 4 years wow that's a lot of posts bet he hold the record ) about how smart he is I really think he belives this forum exists because of him..Best luck take care . I most likely will get banned but at 65 my life will go on. Knowledge is the road to success . And im sure if you read Jims first answer to me he was being x&&@ He was calling me out because someone dare question the all mighty Big Jim. I think I can hear him now? Ma whats for dinner? I hate meatloaf ma . As he types away in the basement. Doug


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## Nicholas (Jan 16, 2017)

Doug and Jim. You guys should really stop with the name calling and animosities. You're both much better then that. Nothing really gets accomplished by doing that. Besides, it takes away from the original theme of this thread. I'm sure you are both very knowledgeable and experienced with old cars, namely Pontiac. I enjoy reading very much what is written on this site, regardless of who authored it. I don't discount anything that is said, although I might not always agree. I appreciate the effort and investment in time. There is much to be learned and shared with each other. We should try and stay focused on why we are here. Wish you both peace always, Nicholas.


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

Nicholas said:


> Doug and Jim. You guys should really stop with the name calling and animosities. You're both much better then that. Nothing really gets accomplished by doing that. Besides, it takes away from the original theme of this thread. I'm sure you are both very knowledgeable and experienced with old cars, namely Pontiac. I enjoy reading very much what is written on this site, regardless of who authored it. I don't discount anything that is said, although I might not always agree. I appreciate the effort and investment in time. There is much to be learned and shared with each other. We should try and stay focused on why we are here. Wish you both peace always, Nicholas.


I will say that I am sorry for what took place. I also apologize to Pontiac Jim. I think I should leave at that . Best to all Doug


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## Caster1 (Sep 1, 2018)

Goat Roper said:


> I was royally ripped off by Jim at CVMS along with Steve another member here, his pistons were installed backwards!
> Southwest Engines in Berdoo did me a solid on the rebuild of my rebuild, the CVMS engine lasted a whole 311 miles before losing bearings and oil pressure.


Thanks for that info!


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## Caster1 (Sep 1, 2018)

Wow,

Guys I hate that my post degraded into this. I'm currently evacuated due to hurricane Florence and have been off the site for several days.

I really just need info and options on my 66 GTO engine and this forum is a great resource. Again, I'm not an engine mechanic, just a guy looking for the right builder. I looked locally and "the guy" that is supposed to be the best in town told me he would only overhaul my engine if I provided him with a unmolested 400 block. Said he did not want to waste his time trying to figure out what the last guy did wrong. This was a red flag to me, plus it would require me to locate a never built 400 engine.... 


I appreciate the help an all the input. Keep it coming, just keep it friendly..... 


Tommy


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"... told me he would only overhaul my engine if I provided him with a unmolested 400 block. Said he did not want to waste his time trying to figure out what the last guy did wrong..."



WOW ! 

Wonder if he tells his 350 Chevy customers the same thing about an old 350 they want him to rebuild ?

Oh wait. I forgot. They can buy a brand new 350 crate longblock for less than $2000 shipped. So, why would anybody wanna have a factory 350 rebuilt, unless it was something rare, or for a numbers matching resto build ?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CHEVROLET-...544?_trksid=p2349526.m4383.l4275.c10#viTabs_0


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Caster1 said:


> Thanks for that info!


You're welcome, Steve and I paid dearly for that info.


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## Caster1 (Sep 1, 2018)

Goat Roper said:


> You're welcome, Steve and I paid dearly for that info.


So, they did not stand behind their work?

Tommy


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Caster1 said:


> So, they did not stand behind their work?
> 
> Tommy


Sure, would you ship your numbers matching block back to the other side of the country on your dime after what they sent you?
I was just glad to get it back in rebuildable condition.
Southwest did in 9 days what CVMS couldn't do in 9 months.


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## Caster1 (Sep 1, 2018)

Goat Roper said:


> Sure, would you ship your numbers matching block back to the other side of the country on your dime after what they sent you?
> I was just glad to get it back in rebuildable condition.
> Southwest did in 9 days what CVMS couldn't do in 9 months.


I understand completely. I hate you had to go through that, but I'll take what you had to learn the hard way as great advice.

Thanks

Tommy


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## Nicholas (Jan 16, 2017)

dd68gto said:


> I will say that I am sorry for what took place. I also apologize to Pontiac Jim. I think I should leave at that . Best to all Doug


Very commendable and gracious Doug. Hope you keep posting. I enjoy reading everything.
If I could expand upon this slightly without offending anyone, I guess I never understood what was so special about rebuilding a Pontiac engine. You have pistons, rings, rods, bearings, cams. etc., like many other motors. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I know of nothing unique about the Pontiac engine. I've had a total of seven engines rebuilt by my machine shop; 5 Chevy and 2 Pontiac. My machinist never said anything about any difficultly in rebuilding the Pontiac motors, although he specialized in Chevy engines. Two of my Chevy engines were "W" engines; a 348 which was bored and stroked to 434 and a 409 which was just bored. The machinist told me that because the combustion chamber was in the block itself on the "W" engines, it required some special equipment which he already had. This was my only and limited experience with a motor requiring something special for rebuild. The 2 Pontiac motors he rebuilt, turned out fine. Both 400's. No problems with them. Just sharing my experience with everyone for what it's worth, Nicholas.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Nicholas said:


> Very commendable and gracious Doug. Hope you keep posting. I enjoy reading everything.


Yeah, what he said. The thing that has for years made this forum one of my favorites has been the absence of bashing, name-calling, and animosity plus the general tendency of everyone to treat "everyone else" with civility regardless of how much they know or don't know. There are "other Pontiac forums" where that is definitely not the case and I very rarely visit them for that reason, even though they are at times a lot more active. Ain't nobody got time for that crap.


Bear


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