# Pontiac? What Pontiac?



## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

Kinda funny...I wonder if the Autosport Development racing team in the SPEED GT SCCA World Challenge shares how I feel (and many GTO owners as well) is ashamed at how the Holden Monaro was imported as a lowly Pontiac...

Hey...that's funny...no mention of _P-P-Pontiac _ here...not so much as a Red Wedgie in sight...



















*In fact...hey! Look at the rear window!*










Score one for those of us ashamed of the red Wedge.


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## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

WHAT A BUNCH OF CRAP!


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## westell (Oct 4, 2004)

with GMAC as sponsor - nice slap in the face to the General


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

What are you guys talking about?

1) Thank _GOD_ they stripped the foul and disingenuous Pontiacisms from this fine car.

2) Holden is as much a division of GM as Pontiac. They may even sell more cars.


My thoughts? The Speed GT / SCCA pro series showcases some of the best sports cars on the market today....Porsche, BMW, Caddy CTS-V, etc. The Pontiac branding has been a huge mistake, initially appealing to the wrong demographic-- not the BMW sport types. Lets face it...Pontiac has a _crap_ reputation with the type of driver that the GTO/Monaro should be appealing to. GM knows this (too late), and has chosen to _not_ tout the P-P-Pontiac aspect...which is all fascia and badges anyway.

Good on ye, AD Motorsports! :cool 

Personally, I think this is great!


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## westell (Oct 4, 2004)

I'm all for flying the Holden flag.

I just think it's a little insulting to cammo a GTO and fly the Holden banner all in one fell swoop.

Want to run as a Holden, then run a Holden.

Likewise with the Pontiac, run it as a GTO

I run a F5 in SCCA and truly LOVE the Pro Series and the SCCA (except you only get trophies and not CASH at our level of racing) :seeya:


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

But it _is_ a Holden...

Nevermind. 

Do you run your GTO in SCCA? I'd _loooooove_ to do that...but if I got into it, I'd probably run a ratty-assed E36 M3 or something that I wouldn't mind getting scratched...


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## westell (Oct 4, 2004)

Don't run the Holden SCCA, but so the family gets a "taste", they let family cars get in a line, and get out on the Texas World Speedway and make a couple laps. They take turn 4, most of the straight, and partial turn 1, until they take you down into the road race portion, then back up into 4.

I held the goat way back (not supposed to  ) where I had the whole banked straight and lit it up, got to 130 before coming up on the pack. Wife was screaming, kids grinning ear to ear. Got an earful from officials, but WTF :willy: 

Just race the F5 (smallest open wheel Formula), but after, all stress gone :cool


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

Damn, that sounds like a blast!


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Groucho said:


> What are you guys talking about?
> 
> 1) Thank _GOD_ they stripped the foul and disingenuous Pontiacisms from this fine car.
> 
> ...



The car is a Pontiac GTO. Get over it. The General is an American company, and Pontiac is an American Division of this company. If we follow your logic, the Car should be badged as an Opel. That's the platform it's based on.


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## GTOJon (Jan 25, 2005)

Since they put the GTO badge on the grill, then the Pontiac symbol should also be there. Sorry, it's NOT Holden GTO! :willy: LOL


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

fergyflyer said:


> The car is a Pontiac GTO. Get over it. The General is an American company, and Pontiac is an American Division of this company. If we follow your logic, the Car should be badged as an Opel. That's the platform it's based on.


...you mean except for the label in the door that says MANUFACTURED BY HOLDEN, right?


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

GTO's have a strong racing heritage. Pontiac has a strong racing heritage. The car is a GTO. If they would have called it a Holden I would have still bought it. I wouldn't have complained that it should have been called an OPEL. That's my point. You keep calling the GTO a Holden, well if you are going to do that you need to go to the roots of the car and call it an OPEL. Don't selectively stop half way because you think Holden sounds exclusive, or somehow superior to Pontiac.
Oh, and Remember your engine and transmission are pure old school V8 muscle car stuff. They are made in the USA, not Australia. The LS1 is a smallblock Chevy. Hey that gives me an idea. I think I'll call mine a Camaro, no wait, a Chevelle. 
Get a life, you drive a PONTIAC. The world is not going to end.


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## Trace (Dec 15, 2004)

Oh, fercrissakes, not another one of these inane arguments (think I'll join in  ) 

First of all, whether you like it or not, Holden IS part of GM...just as is Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, etc. In a multi-national corporate world where there is so much sub-contracting of parts manufacturing & development, you're gonna have a heck of a time finding anything "made exclusively" by the actual employees of the Pontiac division. The corporate world just doesn't operate like that much anymore - too inefficient - been that way for years & years, especially in products as complicated as automobiles. 

Did Holden engineer the V8 under the hood of the Monaro? Did they create the platform the car rides on? Does that make the Monaro an illegitimate Holden? I could go on & on about a whole myriad of products with similar evolutionary origins in every product catagory. Are they all "illegitimate" because all the parts weren't designed & engineered in the design & engineering studios of the company with its name on the product? If you answer yes then you're doomed to eternal disappointment.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Trace said:


> Oh, fercrissakes, not another one of these inane arguments (think I'll join in  )
> 
> First of all, whether you like it or not, Holden IS part of GM...just as is Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, etc. In a multi-national corporate world where there is so much sub-contracting of parts manufacturing & development, you're gonna have a heck of a time finding anything "made exclusively" by the actual employees of the Pontiac division. The corporate world just doesn't operate like that much anymore - too inefficient - been that way for years & years, especially in products as complicated as automobiles.
> 
> Did Holden engineer the V8 under the hood of the Monaro? Did they create the platform the car rides on? Does that make the Monaro an illegitimate Holden? I could go on & on about a whole myriad of products with similar evolutionary origins in every product catagory. Are they all "illegitimate" because all the parts weren't designed & engineered in the design & engineering studios of the company with its name on the product? If you answer yes then you're doomed to eternal disappointment.



I agree with you 100%. What I have a problem with is Groucho trashing Pontiac, and GTO. He is trying to say the car is not a Pontiac, and to a lesser extent a GTO. He doesn't like those names because they do not project the image he wants to project. What I'm trying to say is that if he wants to go back to Holden, because he is embarassed to drive a Pontiac he should go all the way back to the Opel, or the maybe the Chevy powerplant. 
Lets just end this issue here and all agree that we drive a great Pontiac GTO. That's the badge. It may have been assembled by Holden, but it uses technology from all over the GM world.


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## GTOJon (Jan 25, 2005)

Yes, the skeleton is Holden, but the b*llz are PURE AMERICAN! :cheers arty:


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## PWR_SHIFT (Feb 10, 2005)

fergyflyer said:


> The car is a Pontiac GTO. Get over it. The General is an American company, and Pontiac is an American Division of this company. If we follow your logic, the Car should be badged as an Opel. That's the platform it's based on.


Diddo that . . . just consider the car as representing "what Pontiac should be". Problem is GM let all of its divisions in the U.S sink down to the lowest common denominator before realizing how deep the hole had gotten, and now it's paying the price. Enough of the "right kind of people" don't seem to believe it enough to even glance inside the dealership at the GTO, while the others don't and won't get it. We all know it's not the car's fault. Cadillac received the life line first, hope there's enough time for Pontiac (Solstice should help) . . .


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## PWR_SHIFT (Feb 10, 2005)

Groucho said:


> ...you mean except for the label in the door that says MANUFACTURED BY HOLDEN, right?


Monaro down-under = Camaro/Firebird in U.S.


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## DaveGesp (Oct 8, 2004)

If you didn't like the name then why did you buy it? A rose by any other name still smells sweet. A GTO by any other name is still faster then a Mustang. There is nothing else to say. :cool


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

DaveGesp said:


> If you didn't like the name then why did you buy it? A rose by any other name still smells sweet. A GTO by any other name is still faster then a Mustang. There is nothing else to say. :cool


I bought it because this car represents the best performance automobile bang for the buck available on the market today, bar none. 

And the 'Stang comparison is a irrelevant. This car is faster than 95% of the cars on the road-- maybe more. It ain't no Pony car.


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## Tom (Nov 1, 2004)

GTOJon said:


> Yes, the skeleton is Holden, but the b*llz are PURE AMERICAN! :cheers arty:


Are the balls you are referring to the motor? Isnt that the same motor....that is made in canada? :willy: 

I think the most american part of the car is the tires, and my narrower japanese bridgestone snow tires stopped better!!


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## Tom (Nov 1, 2004)

Groucho,
After seeing this here, and seeing it elsewhere I think I figured something out.

When I was a teen and in my early 20s I thought the camaro and firebird were the "it".

When I hit my 30s I got a Legend Coupe, drove my brothers 325, got a 944 and the list goes on. What amazed me was that my 944 with 208hp had 0-60 times that were in vette territory, and the car stayed flat on turns. when my 944 was stolen I got a Z28. It did everything the 944 did plus, but at the expense of my back.

I bet when you had a mullet and were listening to the new VH album you thought the firebird was the it. tastes change. 

I personally didnt care who sold the car. I got the car because of the interior. It could have had the same 230hp V6 my legend had, or the 225hp inline 6 the 330 has, it was the interior that sold me.

In conclusion, those that have exprienced the refinement of the foreign cars wouldnt step into a pontiac dealer but for the GTO. If I didn't get a super sweet deal on the Aurora which got rave reviews I would have bought another Acura (should have in retrospect).


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## NoBMWforME (Apr 12, 2005)

I happen to agree with Groucho too. I don't think marketing My GTO as a PONTIAC helped at all in my decision to purchase the car. What this means to me is that this brand has (had) almost zero value to me. (Brand Equity) When I think of Pontiac, I think of Trans Ams from the 80's were all huff and no puff and door handles coming off in my hands. Or I think of cars that had "performance" bolted on in the form of non-functional body parts. While I know that Pontiac's have improved somewhat over the years, I had ZERO interest in ever owning a GM again. I am a middle aged professional in my prime earning years. Within reason, I can pretty much own any car I want. If it had not been a co-worker that gave me a ride in his GTO, I would have never looked at this car, remember the ZERO brand equity. I would have been far more likly to look at this car initially if it had been branded a HOLDEN. After riding in his car, I sold my BMW to own this car. (There is another thread that describes this, you can see my reasons there.)

I know there are several people out there that want this to be the new camero or firebird, I think that Groucho is saying that GM has wanted this car to be more that what those brands ever represented. I think GM would like to stick one in the heart of BMW and Mercedes to demonstrate they are a force with which to be reckoned. For me, the GTO does it in many material respects.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Tom said:


> Are the balls you are referring to the motor? Isnt that the same motor....that is made in canada? :willy:
> 
> I think the most american part of the car is the tires, and my narrower japanese bridgestone snow tires stopped better!!


The engine isn't built in Canada. They were casting Ls1's in Mexico and somewhere in the southwest. I think assembly is somewhere in Chicago. The Mexican plant did not have the ability to produce the LS6 casting. It was cut out of LS production in 03' part way through the year. All LS1's after that have an LS6 block. (major diference is stiffer casting technique and larger ports in the block for cross cylinder breathing. When one cylinder is on a compression stroke, and the other on the opposite side of the block, is on a power stroke there are ports to allow the trapped air to move from one cylinder to the next. Those are larger on the LS6 resulting in less pumping losses.) Transmission is assembled in the US. I think it is a German design, but I'm not certain. 
This car is a world car. It is assembled by Aussie's using a European design, and is from parts from several countries. They come together to make a great Pontiac GTO, or if you are in Australia, a Holden.


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## westell (Oct 4, 2004)

LS6 castings from Mexico, 
old LS1 castings were made in canada.
assembled at St. Catherine's, Ontario, canada.

World Class Car - Global Marketing :cool


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

NoBMWforME said:


> I happen to agree with Groucho too. I don't think marketing My GTO as a PONTIAC helped at all in my decision to purchase the car. What this means to me is that this brand has (had) almost zero value to me. (Brand Equity) When I think of Pontiac, I think of Trans Ams from the 80's were all huff and no puff and door handles coming off in my hands. Or I think of cars that had "performance" bolted on in the form of non-functional body parts. While I know that Pontiac's have improved somewhat over the years, I had ZERO interest in ever owning a GM again. I am a middle aged professional in my prime earning years. Within reason, I can pretty much own any car I want. If it had not been a co-worker that gave me a ride in his GTO, I would have never looked at this car, remember the ZERO brand equity. I would have been far more likly to look at this car initially if it had been branded a HOLDEN. After riding in his car, I sold my BMW to own this car. (There is another thread that describes this, you can see my reasons there.)
> 
> 
> 
> I know there are several people out there that want this to be the new camero or firebird, I think that Groucho is saying that GM has wanted this car to be more that what those brands ever represented. I think GM would like to stick one in the heart of BMW and Mercedes to demonstrate they are a force with which to be reckoned. For me, the GTO does it in many material respects.



I had a Camaro Z28. The car handled almost as good as the GTO. It rode worse. The hatchback was extremely handy. The front seats were not as good as this cars but were good enough for several cross- country trips with no fatigue. No back problems either, and most cars do not suit my back. I definately did not buy this car thinking it was a Camaro or Firebird. This thing is quiet, refined and more comfortable, at the expense of weight. Weight is the enemy of any pony car. You give up comfort for speed and that is the essence of a pony car. Anyone that buys a GTO as a pure pony car is not going to be satisfied. 

That said, I have issues when people trash American brands based off of some prejudice they have for foriegn cars. I'm under the impression that Groucho does not want people to know that he bought a lowly Pontiac. Well think back ten years and say that you would have been proud to drive a Cadilac. Now the CTS and XLR and the........ Cadilac doesn't make a bad car. Twenty years ago it was considered a slam to say that someone drove a Toyota, Honda, or Datsun. Datsun changed their name to Nissan to get away from the Jap car image. What your suggesting is that GM should do the same. They tried it. Remeber GEO. Holden has NO brand recognition. Pontiac does. Nissan is not nearly as successfull as Toyota or Honda while building equal vehicles. Pontiac, like Cadilac, will start with one vehicle at a time. First the Aztec then the GTO, and now the Solstice. (Aztec was a typo, sorry LOL). I think the wrong thing to do would be to try a route they went with GEO. The snobs that would rather drive something other than a Pontiac will come around and Pontiac will return as the step up brand. Groucho already has returned.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

You guys who get your backs up about my problems bearing the Pontiac logo on my car are making my point exactly. Pontiac does have brand recognition-- unfortunatel, it's a _negative _ image to most of the audience who would find the Holden to be a great car in the _Gran Turisimo _ tradition!

For the past quarter century, Pontiac has built cars that _suck_. Look at every other car currently in the Pontiac stable...each one a four-wheeled punchline, existing only as fodder for rental car companies. Again, the abberation is the Aztek...I dunno what they were on when they approved that thing for production, but dammit, I want some.

Maybe you are correct. Maybe the GTO / Monaro represents the opening shot in GM's attempt to actually revitalize the Pontiac brand, to make the Red Wedge mean _Performance_ again...and not just with substandard, cartoonish, iron-axle boy-racers built specifically to appeal to high-school boys in the midwest and fans of TV shows about talking cars. You are correct-- Cadillac was able to revamp its image from the car you buy to get your social security checks. The CTS-V is an amazing car...but the difference here is that it was marketed _correctly_. In the case of Pontiac, however, GM boned it. Mostly by virtue of the fact that the Powers What Be in Detroit unwisely _called _ the car a _GTO_, it is instantly portrayed with an image that does not fit the Monaro's GT character.

Stupid, stupid, stupid. 

The name that John DeLorean stole from the Italians _means_ something- it conjures images of a fast, loud, legendary, yet _crude_ car. A musclecar, a relic from an idealized past. The problem is that the Monaro is a _far _ more capable, refined car than the old boulevard burner. By the very fact they imported a Holden Monaro CV8 and branded it a _Pontiac GTO_, they instantly set it up against the Ford Mustang...a wildly popular, cheaper, yet far inferior car! Dammit, they tried to appeal to the Mustang and Firebird fans, not the Euro car types!

The Monaro / GTO _whateverthehellyouwannacallit_ compares very favorably with high-speed conveyences such as the BMW 645i and Mercedes CLK 500, only not stuffed full of sticker-shock inducing luxo-electrogizmos, not some idiot strippie pony car that good for little else other than laying rubber in high-school parking lots. Showing that the Monaro / GTO is a price-effective Eurocar Destroyer would go _*far*_ further at resurrecting Pontiac as a brand rather than portraying it as another nasty car with dead bird on the hood!

The good news is that GM dropped the ball here, big time, and we get to recover on their 3 yard line.

Whatever you want to call, for whatever reason you bought it, our Holden-Pontiac Monaro GTO CV8 is one of the best-kept secrets in performance automobiles. We win.


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## ouijaguy (Mar 16, 2005)

I only agree with the last sentence


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

ouijaguy said:


> I only agree with the last sentence



Well, that's something!  

I guess the reason why you like it is irrelevant. These are sh1t-hot cars, end of sentence.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

Sorry you defenders of the church of the screaming chicken.

*Pontiac Sucks!* but the car is great.

I can't believe I bought one. The Pontiac brand was something I had to overcome to buy this car rather than an attraction. It took me a while to accept that this was not the second coming of the TransAm. Now, Pontiac earned this reputation over the last three decades. Yes they did! Just as BMW, Honda, Lexus, and Toyota earned their reputations with the products they brought to market year after year.

I actually did consider whether I wanted to be seen in a Pontiac and spend the next five years defending my choice to a bunch of snickering friends. I decided the car was worth it.

Luckily, I'm the practical type and the basic goodness of the product overcame my prejudice against GM & Pontiac. I don't really care to impress the neighbors as much as I care about value. And, the GTO is a great performance value. 

The GTO name was a boner. It instantly confused the mullet heads into thinking the General still loved them when they were not the intended target of that particular come hither look. Pontiac could have used the Holden name to generate some mystique or exclusivity and still sold it down at the Pontiac store. They could have given it a brand new cool moniker and avoided the reflex comparison to a Mustang or a muscle car icon from the glory days.

But they didn't. And, the mullet heads couldn't afford it. And, the intended buyers stayed away. And we all got a bargain. I'm happy. 

Now with all the above said, give em a chance. The GTO is a great car. The new G6 is a very decent attempt at an affordable family sedan. The Solstice has a lot of promise. Maybe they're serious this time. I'd love to see Pontiac establish itself as a desirable brand. But they'll have to do it the old fashioned way. Earn it, with solid products over an extended period of time.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

Wing_Nut said:


> Sorry you defenders of the church of the screaming chicken...
> 
> _*snip* smart stuff that followed_


 :agree 

Woah. My thoughts _'zactly._ :cheers 

You've restated my thought that Holden might be a viable brand...but there is an example of how a new brand, no matter how superior, may fail at the hands of incompetent marketing: Merkur, for one.

Back in the Eighties, while the F-Body faithful were getting their dead-bird jollies, The Merkur XR4Ti was a fecking _awesome_ car. These were German Fords, built to Euro-rocket specs. A buddy had one (hell, I couldn't afford it at the time), and it was an absolute hoot to throw around and would burn up the freeway at a prodigious rate...a real threat to the E30 Bimmers of the day. But Lincoln-Merkury had _no_ idea how to sell them to a generally clueless public. Not a clue. So, with that, the "Exrahti" and the larger Scorpio went buh-bye, along with the EuroFord Merkur badge. Sad.

I have a feeling a similar fate may befall a Holden label if it is forced to be sold under the Pontiac banner.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

I guess I'm remembering a different car than you are. The GTO that I remember had a vinyl roof, a nice interior, a better ride than any pony car (Mustang, Camaro, Firebird, Challenger, Javalin/AMX), a stereo that you could hear. It was like the Buick GS and the Olds 442/Hurst, the Gran Torino and the Charger. These cars were the American touring/muscle cars of their time. The Pony cars beat you up. 
In the last 25 years Pontiac has built some decent cars. You forget the 6000STE, it regularly beat Audi's, Maxima's and such in road tests. The Firebird/ Trans AM filled a market slot very well through the 70's 80's and even the early 90's. The 98-02 were LS1 powered and I loved looking at M-3's and 911 drivers in my rear-view mirrors of my Z28. I followed a 911 driver on the coast highway 1, he tried for 20 minutes to lose me. He didn't have the power or the skills. I finally backed off and let him pull away due to the fear that he was going to lose it in a big way. The Z was very easy to drive at 9/10's. The last generation Grand Prix GTP was a very reliable, fast, comfortable touring car that did a great job of overcoming the front-drive handicap it had. 
The real target of this car shouldn't be the 645's and CLK500's. Those cars are for pretenders that say hey look at me I've got car X. No matter what name you gave it, the GTO wouldn't have the snob appeal. The real target of this car is the G35's, the Chrysler Crossfire, Honda Accord V6 coupe, or a guy looking at the 300C but not really wanting a 4door. The Mustang treads the line as a competitor, and is a good bang for the buck, but for very little more you get a real back seat, the superb front seats, more power, a better manual transmission, equal handling and a better ride.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

Interesting, I rented a Merkur XR4Ti when i was in DC on business back in the 80's. That was the first turbo four I ever drove. I was impressed. A few months later my wife and I were in the DC area on vacation and we rented one again for the week. We drove that thing all over DC and Virginia. It was a really nice car for it's time. Good room inside too. As I recall some of the controls were a little weird though. Ford did manage to F it up. I guess the US car co's just don't do well with the marketing thing.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Groucho said:


> :agree
> 
> Woah. My thoughts _'zactly._ :cheers
> 
> ...



The Merkur XR4Ti that I remember was unreliable, expensive to repair, and BUTT UGLY. It sold poorly because it was priced higher than the better performing Taurus SHO. The Probe GT weighed 200lbs less and performed better also. The Probe and the Merkur were the same size, but the Probe cost 5000 less,and it looked great too. Oh, it was reliable also.
The Merkur Scorpio, give me a break. Underpowered, ugly, overweight, and at 30,000 in 89 way overpriced. That's what killed those cars. 
If you want to bring up a car that Ford should have done a better job with, the Contour. Specifically the SVT model.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

fergyflyer said:


> I guess I'm remembering a different car than you are. The GTO that I remember had a vinyl roof, a nice interior, a better ride than any pony car (Mustang, Camaro, Firebird, Challenger, Javalin/AMX), a stereo that you could hear. It was like the Buick GS and the Olds 442/Hurst, the Gran Torino and the Charger. These cars were the American touring/muscle cars of their time. The Pony cars beat you up.
> In the last 25 years Pontiac has built some decent cars. You forget the 6000STE, it regularly beat Audi's, Maxima's and such in road tests. The Firebird/ Trans AM filled a market slot very well through the 70's 80's and even the early 90's. The 98-02 were LS1 powered and I loved looking at M-3's and 911 drivers in my rear-view mirrors of my Z28. I followed a 911 driver on the coast highway 1, he tried for 20 minutes to lose me. He didn't have the power or the skills. I finally backed off and let him pull away due to the fear that he was going to lose it in a big way. The Z was very easy to drive at 9/10's. The last generation Grand Prix GTP was a very reliable, fast, comfortable touring car that did a great job of overcoming the front-drive handicap it had.
> The real target of this car shouldn't be the 645's and CLK500's. Those cars are for pretenders that say hey look at me I've got car X. No matter what name you gave it, the GTO wouldn't have the snob appeal. The real target of this car is the G35's, the Chrysler Crossfire, Honda Accord V6 coupe, or a guy looking at the 300C but not really wanting a 4door. The Mustang treads the line as a competitor, and is a good bang for the buck, but for very little more you get a real back seat, the superb front seats, more power, a better manual transmission, equal handling and a better ride.



Fergy, Fergy, Fergy

Pontiac 6000 :rofl: , Grand Pricks :rofl: :rofl: , Trans Am, Z28......these are the poster children of the anti-domestic brand campaign. Man, they all deserved to die. Performance? Yes. Quality? No! Total experience......mediocre.

Now the original GTO (without the oddball vinyl roof) was a well styled and powerful car for it's time with decent ride comfort. And the quality was very competitive for that era. But, it was a straight line cruiser. No corners please. And the rest of the world moved forward while GM wandered in the wilderness from 1970 - 199X.

As for the target competitors of the GTO, G35 yes, Crossfire yes, Z Car yes, Accord ???? BMW 6's and Merc CLK's may be a stretch for snob appeal but for performance and build quality but the GTO gets damn close on both counts for a lot less money.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

fergyflyer said:


> The Merkur XR4Ti that I remember was unreliable, expensive to repair, and BUTT UGLY. It sold poorly because it was priced higher than the better performing Taurus SHO. The Probe GT weighed 200lbs less and performed better also. The Probe and the Merkur were the same size, but the Probe cost 5000 less,and it looked great too. Oh, it was reliable also.
> The Merkur Scorpio, give me a break. Underpowered, ugly, overweight, and at 30,000 in 89 way overpriced. That's what killed those cars.
> If you want to bring up a car that Ford should have done a better job with, the Contour. Specifically the SVT model.


Admittedly the XR4Ti was, uh, "unique" in it's styling. I only rented the thing so I can't comment on reliability and repair cost. But, it was speedy and handled very well for it's day and it had great room inside. As for "The Probe", my wife hated the car for the name alone. Another marketing stroke of genius. Take a "chick car" and call it something that brings to mind stirrups and a medical instrument. I laugh every time I see one.

As for cars that Ford could have done a better job with, pick one, any one!


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## bluhaven (Jan 24, 2005)

fergyflyer said:


> GTO's have a strong racing heritage. Pontiac has a strong racing heritage. The car is a GTO. If they would have called it a Holden I would have still bought it. I wouldn't have complained that it should have been called an OPEL. That's my point. You keep calling the GTO a Holden, well if you are going to do that you need to go to the roots of the car and call it an OPEL. Don't selectively stop half way because you think Holden sounds exclusive, or somehow superior to Pontiac.
> Oh, and Remember your engine and transmission are pure old school V8 muscle car stuff. They are made in the USA, not Australia. The LS1 is a smallblock Chevy. Hey that gives me an idea. I think I'll call mine a Camaro, no wait, a Chevelle.
> Get a life, you drive a PONTIAC. The world is not going to end.


thanks , i agree,the Pontiac is a legend, if groucho doesn't like it , then buy something else...you do own a Pontiac Gto


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## PWR_SHIFT (Feb 10, 2005)

I for one don't mind the "red wedge" (actually an arrow tip, for the underinformed). A great car is a great car. . . the only way GM could satisfy some of the overly image-conscious out there is to let BMW stick its propeller badge on it. Look in the mirror and admit it, at least it'll be the honest thing to do. 

Yes GM has found ways to louse things up for a bit too long, its lowest common denominator approach shone right through for me as well. But remember it's an American car company and if it gives you a great product, whichever way, appreciate it and cheer for the home team. Self-deprecation is a good trait, while self-loathing is a crappy one. If in the end we have no home auto industry we'll all be hurtin' . . . Now excuse me while I get off this soap box.

P.S.: What's with those black SS stripes on your yellow "BMW" Groucho?


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## eldodroptop (Mar 26, 2005)

Groucho said:


> :agree
> 
> Woah. My thoughts _'zactly._ :cheers
> 
> ...


I was going to bring up this very point about Merkur... To take the point further remember when GM decided that Chevrolet could not sell cars to import buyers they would instead call the cars GEOs... How in the hell can you rebuild Chevys brand image doing that?? You can't... How in the hell can you rebuild Pontiacs image selling the GTO as a Holden?? You can't.


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## Troy Roberts (Jul 30, 2004)

I hope that GTO drivers are on the cutting edge of making Pontiac a meaningful performance division with a great reputation. The solstice should help as well. Especially when the forced induction version comes out.

If GM can do with Pontiac what it did with Cadillac we're going to see some pretty nice cars in the lineup.

While many may like having a Holden badge better at this point that may change in a few years. I hope so anyway.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

PWR_SHIFT said:


> I for one don't mind the "red wedge" (actually an arrow tip, for the underinformed). A great car is a great car. . . the only way GM could satisfy some of the overly image-conscious out there is to let BMW stick its propeller badge on it. Look in the mirror and admit it, at least it'll be the honest thing to do.
> 
> Yes GM has found ways to louse things up for a bit too long, its lowest common denominator approach shone right through for me as well. But remember it's an American car company and if it gives you a great product, whichever way, appreciate it and cheer for the home team. Self-deprecation is a good trait, while self-loathing is a crappy one. If in the end we have no home auto industry we'll all be hurtin' . . . Now excuse me while I get off this soap box.
> 
> P.S.: What's with those black SS stripes on your yellow "BMW" Groucho?


Although "self-loathing" is a pretty heavy term to use, you actually got it right. The sad fact is that, in our society, what car you choose to purchase and drive is a projection of your image. Those who say "I don't care" are are not being honest with themselves. Unfortunately Pontiac projects, as you say, a "lowest-common denominator" image. Like WingNut, I bought this car knowing that I would take a lot of grief from my buddies and aquaintences...yet the GTO was _me_.

This is the _best_ car I have ever owned, and I tell that to anyone who will listen. The vast majority are _very_ skeptical, but this lifts when you say "It's actually designed and built by Holden, a GM division in Australia." You almost instantly have to apologize and explain yourself for being _dumb_ enough to buy, of all things, a _Pontiac_. I'm sorry-- it's not my perception-- it's a _fact_.

Pontiac has a loooooong way to go to pull itself up, but they keep doing _stupid_ things. Let's face it-- giving G6s away on _Oprah Winfrey _ did very little to win street cred with the high-performance car buying public. :lol: 

I firmly believe that this car has such high value-- excellent build quality and performance at such a low price point-- _because_ of the fact that the designers & engineers (and their managers) at Pontiac were 8000 miles away, oblivious to the Monaro. Also, the typical domestic GM supply chain (at this price point-- I'm not talking Caddy-quality stuff), with flimsy switches and cheap plastics, was also seperated by the Pacific Ocean and half a continent. We got the good stuff.

Oh...and you mean the stripes on my _Holden_? They look freaking _cool_, dammit! :cool


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## DaveGesp (Oct 8, 2004)

PWR_SHIFT said:


> I for one don't mind the "red wedge" (actually an arrow tip, for the underinformed). A great car is a great car. . . the only way GM could satisfy some of the overly image-conscious out there is to let BMW stick its propeller badge on it. Look in the mirror and admit it, at least it'll be the honest thing to do.
> 
> Yes GM has found ways to louse things up for a bit too long, its lowest common denominator approach shone right through for me as well. But remember it's an American car company and if it gives you a great product, whichever way, appreciate it and cheer for the home team. Self-deprecation is a good trait, while self-loathing is a crappy one. If in the end we have no home auto industry we'll all be hurtin' . . . Now excuse me while I get off this soap box.
> 
> P.S.: What's with those black SS stripes on your yellow "BMW" Groucho?


Have you noticed BMW's split grill? Pontiac introduced the split grill in 1959, droped it in 1960, then reintroduced it 1961. Besides the arrowhead, Pontiac is now known for it's split grill. Interesting how BMW and other manufactures are now copying Pontiac. Say what you will about Pontiac, but it has always been a leader and still is. The new GTO is another small car, big engine, muscle car as was the 64 GTO. Other manufacturs jumped on the band wagon after the first GTO in 64 and you'll see more band wagon jumper onners in the near future. Assuming that gas prices will stabilize, the muscle car has returned. Pontiac was first again!


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

DaveGesp said:


> Have you noticed BMW's split grill? Pontiac introduced the split grill in 1959, droped it in 1960, then reintroduced it 1961. Besides the arrowhead, Pontiac is now known for it's split grill. Interesting how BMW and other manufactures are now copying Pontiac. Say what you will about Pontiac, but it has always been a leader and still is.!


_*Bzzzzzzzzt!*_

I'm sorry, but you don't win the beautiful bedroom suite. We do have a lovely consolation prize, however.

*1936 BMW 328 Roadster:*










Even earlier...

*1933 BMW 303 Cabriolet:*


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## PWR_SHIFT (Feb 10, 2005)

Groucho said:


> Although "self-loathing" is a pretty heavy term to use, you actually got it right. The sad fact is that, in our society, what car you choose to purchase and drive is a projection of your image. Those who say "I don't care" are are not being honest with themselves. Unfortunately Pontiac projects, as you say, a "lowest-common denominator" image. Like WingNut, I bought this car knowing that I would take a lot of grief from my buddies and aquaintences...yet the GTO was _me_.
> 
> This is the _best_ car I have ever owned, and I tell that to anyone who will listen. The vast majority are _very_ skeptical, but this lifts when you say "It's actually designed and built by Holden, a GM division in Australia." You almost instantly have to apologize and explain yourself for being _dumb_ enough to buy, of all things, a _Pontiac_. I'm sorry-- it's not my perception-- it's a _fact_.
> 
> ...


Caddy had, as you say, "a loooooong way to go to pull itself up" (I didn't I miss any o's did I?) just a few short years back too. Please recall the Sun-city geezer-mobile image - it hasn't been that long ago, and I'm sure you're old enough to remember it. :confused 

It all starts with a realization. Something that Bob Lutz finally brought to the boardroom at GM; if he sticks around, there's hope, if not ...  

I'm still surprised you had the gumption to not only deal with having to explain the crappy Pontiac choice to your buddies, but also stick those (some may say adolescent and even clueless; I don't, but some may) muscle car stripes on the "BMW", sorry, I meant Holden.  

Whatever helps you through the night man.


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## DaveGesp (Oct 8, 2004)

Groucho said:


> _*Bzzzzzzzzt!*_
> 
> I'm sorry, but you don't win the beautiful bedroom suite. We do have a lovely consolation prize, however.
> 
> ...





Let me defend my position: Oakland was the originator of Pontiac. Pontiac being the the smaller model of Oakland. Pontiac became the better seller and Oakland was droped from the product line. Please go to: http://www.hubcapcafe.com/ocs/pontiac.htm

In 1929 Oakland produced a Roadster with a split grill. Please see:  http://www.hubcapcafe.com/ocs/pages01/oak_2900.htm

So ..... Oakland (Parent of Pontiac) had a split grill before BMW. 

Your turn!


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## FoMoGo (Apr 22, 2005)

Wow... split grill theft conversation... who did they steal the 4 tire design feature from? 


Jim


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

I'm not taking sides -- but I do find it funny when car magazines and letters to the editor bash Pontiac for its "corporate" front ends while BMW's kidneys are considered a hallowed example of consistent branding.

People here in Silicon Valley are lining up to buy hideous BMW 5-series, 7-series, X3s, X5s and Z4s -- yet turn their noses up at domestic or other imported product which costs less, does the same job, and looks better. Who knows, maybe it's a self-esteem issue. Maybe they need the snob appeal of a BMW Roundel or Mercedes Star to help make themselves feel better. After all, nothing says status when your M-Class is being dragged off to the dealer on a tow truck's hook after refusing to start (again).

I've witnessed research where all the badging was swapped between a Cadillac and BMW -- and the BMW badged Cadillac was absolutely swooned over while the Cadillac badged BMW was pretty much urniated on. How people in the focus groups didn't catch onto this is beyond me -- but it sure says a great, great deal about the bias many people have against domestic product.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Hey the stripes on Groucho's car look great. I've seen a lot of Camaro's with them. New Mustang drivers are trending towards them as well. They would look great on an 05' with them going right over the scoops. 
You DIS the Pontiac "dead bird", and then make a similar fashion statement with the stripes. You get mad when people compare the car to an F-body or a Mustang, but try to make you car look like one?????? Please explain.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

b_a_betterperson said:


> I'm not taking sides -- but I do find it funny when car magazines and letters to the editor bash Pontiac for its "corporate" front ends while BMW's kidneys are considered a hallowed example of consistent branding.
> 
> People here in Silicon Valley are lining up to buy hideous BMW 5-series, 7-series, X3s, X5s and Z4s -- yet turn their noses up at domestic or other imported product which costs less, does the same job, and looks better. Who knows, maybe it's a self-esteem issue. Maybe they need the snob appeal of a BMW Roundel or Mercedes Star to help make themselves feel better. After all, nothing says status when your M-Class is being dragged off to the dealer on a tow truck's hook after refusing to start (again).
> 
> I've witnessed research where all the badging was swapped between a Cadillac and BMW -- and the BMW badged Cadillac was absolutely swooned over while the Cadillac badged BMW was pretty much urniated on. How people in the focus groups didn't catch onto this is beyond me -- but it sure says a great, great deal about the bias many people have against domestic product.



I saw the results of a similar test where a Hyundai XG350 was rebadged as a Toyota and the Avalon as a Hyundai. People were willing to pay 30-35 for the rebadged Hyundai, but found all kinds of cheapness issues with the Avalon. They would be willing to pay low twenties for it. One guy even commented how it felt like the controls in the Avalon were going to break before he could get the car home. 

It's a Pontiac GTO and you're part of the revolution. 1st Caddy, now Pontiac.


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## PWR_SHIFT (Feb 10, 2005)

b_a_betterperson said:


> I'm not taking sides -- but I do find it funny when car magazines and letters to the editor bash Pontiac for its "corporate" front ends while BMW's kidneys are considered a hallowed example of consistent branding.
> 
> People here in Silicon Valley are lining up to buy hideous BMW 5-series, 7-series, X3s, X5s and Z4s -- yet turn their noses up at domestic or other imported product which costs less, does the same job, and looks better. Who knows, maybe it's a self-esteem issue. Maybe they need the snob appeal of a BMW Roundel or Mercedes Star to help make themselves feel better. After all, nothing says status when your M-Class is being dragged off to the dealer on a tow truck's hook after refusing to start (again).
> 
> I've witnessed research where all the badging was swapped between a Cadillac and BMW -- and the BMW badged Cadillac was absolutely swooned over while the Cadillac badged BMW was pretty much urniated on. How people in the focus groups didn't catch onto this is beyond me -- but it sure says a great, great deal about the bias many people have against domestic product.


Man, this post gave me the chills (honest facts, like pictures are worth a thousand, no, make that a milion words in this case) . . . and these are the same people some of us feel the need to justify the GTO purchase to?  

Point so perfectly made - Thanks "b_a_betterperson". Now I can get back to doing stuff that really matters.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

FoMoGo said:


> Wow... split grill theft conversation... who did they steal the 4 tire design feature from?
> 
> 
> Jim


Took that whole lateral symmetry thing too.


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## FoMoGo (Apr 22, 2005)

My take on it.
It is an amazing car, I have only driven 2... but they made a BIG impression on me. Only fault I had was slow rear seat access.
I would be interested in one no matter who made it, what badge was on it, or what others thought of it.
We would have never got this great piece of machinery over here if it was not rebadged. 
Holden doesnt sell in the US. 
Holden Monaro, Lumina SS, Pontiac GTO...
I would take any of them.
Pontiac purists are up in arms over rebadging a "foreign" car as a pontiac, Holden lover up in arms for cheapening the monaro by calling it a pontiac...

No matter what, we win.
Is it a GTO in the original idea of the 64 GTO? No. That car was light body, big motor, best accelleration possible.

The reason I plan on picking up a used 04 is that I can load my family in it, and make a cross country run if I feel like. And yes, I pack light. 
It feels to be a $45K+ car with a 30K price.
I cant afford the cars it competes with on a dynamic and tactile level, but the GTO is in reach.

I really wish the rest of pontiacs linup would follow the GTO.
It is what they need.


Jim


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## westell (Oct 4, 2004)

fergyflyer said:


> Hey the stripes on Groucho's car look great. I've seen a lot of Camaro's with them. New Mustang drivers are trending towards them as well. They would look great on an 05' with them going right over the scoops.
> You DIS the Pontiac "dead bird", and then make a similar fashion statement with the stripes. You get mad when people compare the car to an F-body or a Mustang, but try to make you car look like one?????? Please explain.


Hey now. Rally Stripes been 'round long time on host of cars. I wanted to black stripes on my black SS, just never got around to it. Saw Groucho's back in September when I got my GTO, so did it then. Besides the car in general, the most compliments is about the black on black


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## jons04bluegto (Nov 9, 2004)

hey Groucho, I've got an old Trans Am emblem that I was going to use on a '78 that I never got to restore (got married, kid, etc) I was thinking of putting it on the goat and posting the picture to see if your head would explode.....


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## westell (Oct 4, 2004)

:rofl: trans am wings black one or gold ?

I can see a photochop contest coming  

"MAKE THE MOD'S HEAD EXPLODE !"


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## Braman'sGTO (Mar 14, 2005)

Groucho said:


> _*Bzzzzzzzzt!*_
> 
> I'm sorry, but you don't win the beautiful bedroom suite. We do have a lovely consolation prize, however.
> 
> ...


I would probably blow my wad if I were able do drive a classic car like that


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

jons04bluegto said:


> hey Groucho, I've got an old Trans Am emblem that I was going to use on a '78 that I never got to restore (got married, kid, etc) I was thinking of putting it on the goat and posting the picture to see if your head would explode.....


No skull 'splosion danger.

I will ROFLMAO, however.

Because that would be _really_ friggin' funny, in a pathetic / sad sorta way.

I like Westell's idea-- _Photoshop contest!!!_


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

b_a_betterperson said:


> I'm not taking sides -- but I do find it funny when car magazines and letters to the editor bash Pontiac for its "corporate" front ends while BMW's kidneys are considered a hallowed example of consistent branding.
> 
> People here in Silicon Valley are lining up to buy hideous BMW 5-series, 7-series, X3s, X5s and Z4s -- yet turn their noses up at domestic or other imported product which costs less, does the same job, and looks better. Who knows, maybe it's a self-esteem issue. Maybe they need the snob appeal of a BMW Roundel or Mercedes Star to help make themselves feel better. After all, nothing says status when your M-Class is being dragged off to the dealer on a tow truck's hook after refusing to start (again).
> 
> I've witnessed research where all the badging was swapped between a Cadillac and BMW -- and the BMW badged Cadillac was absolutely swooned over while the Cadillac badged BMW was pretty much urniated on. How people in the focus groups didn't catch onto this is beyond me -- but it sure says a great, great deal about the bias many people have against domestic product.


Yeah but.....people didn't just wake up one day and decide to hate domestic product. The Big 3 manufacturers have conditioned us to expect inferior product for three decades. So, when that focus group looks at a car with the Caddy wreath they see what they expect to see because that is what experience has shown them to be true. At least at first glance. 

You can't dig out of a 30 year hole with a single good product, or two, or three. You have to build (or rebuild) a reputation slowly over a period of years. Trust is a fragile thing. And, there are just too many good products out there for car buyers to choose from.

Why shouldn't people feel good about choosing a brand that has proven itself to have superior quality and engineering over a long period of time? Wouldn't you wonder about the judgement of someone who knowingly spends hard earned money on a brand that is proven to have inferior reliability and engineering over that same period of time?

I would / do. That's where the bias comes from.


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## Tom (Nov 1, 2004)

To years ago this time I was considering selling my 944S2 and RX7 convertible(and maybe firebird convertible) and buying a used 3 series convertible.

When I saw asking prices of 5 year old 330s in the mid 20s i commented to my buddy that they were in new sebring convertible territory. He told me i was nuts. for the same money you get a drop top, warranty, lease, etc. 

I had a legend coupe which morphed into the accord coupe when the CL was discontinued. The honda may have less HP, but it is more of a competitor to the GTO than the mustang. 

The GTO name brings the car down. the name conjures up muscle car/pony car comparisons, not sport coupe comparisons.

Ponder this thought I said to someone ten years ago when I saw the lexus SC 400 Coupe: If the GTO/Grand Sport/442 had not been discontinued, and the american carmakers didnt do such a royal job of screwing up from say 72 on, the GTO would have morphed into the SC 400 coupe.

Now the current GTO is in the league of the SC 400 coupe, and the Legend Coupe, both which stickered for more than the GTO ten years ago, but the GTO is compared to the secretaries car with a big motor mustang.

The GTO is a world class car that is hampered by what the pontiac name has become over the last 25 years. Sad, but true. Olds was getting some respect among drivers, so they killed it.

As for inferior product, i agree the product is not as good, but what brings it down even more is the fact that gm doesnt stand behind it. my buddy had an acura TL, the tranny went bad. they gave him a comparable loaner, and five days later he had a new tranny. in my aurora (which stickered for more $) the power steering pump went bad. they let me pay $5 a day to drive a mazda 3 and took five days to do a two hour job. five trips for a shimmy, four trips for a stalling problem. i just read in autoweek that when one of their foreign cars went in for an oil change the dealer updated this and that per service bulletins,without asking. doesnt happen with gm, when it dies on the road they will fix it. hence the bad image.

rant off


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Wing_Nut said:


> Yeah but.....people didn't just wake up one day and decide to hate domestic product. The Big 3 manufacturers have conditioned us to expect inferior product for three decades. So, when that focus group looks at a car with the Caddy wreath they see what they expect to see because that is what experience has shown them to be true. At least at first glance.
> 
> You can't dig out of a 30 year hole with a single good product, or two, or three. You have to build (or rebuild) a reputation slowly over a period of years. Trust is a fragile thing. And, there are just too many good products out there for car buyers to choose from.
> 
> ...



Exactly!!!!
Gm is rebuilding Cadilac, they have turned the corner. Now they are starting with Pontiac and this is the car. Hopefully, and I hate that word, with this and the Solstice things will change at the Pontiac store too. I know I wasn't looking for a big discount or a large rebate, I was looking for the right car.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

westell said:


> Hey now. Rally Stripes been 'round long time on host of cars. I wanted to black stripes on my black SS, just never got around to it. Saw Groucho's back in September when I got my GTO, so did it then. Besides the car in general, the most compliments is about the black on black


I'm a Pittsburgh Steeler fan, I like the stripes on Groucho's car. I had an 86 Mustang GT that was charcoal gray with shadow gray hood stripes. I loved it. After seeing Groucho's car I'm thinking that my Red would look good with stripes, especially with the scoops.
My issue is that he trashed the emblem that was the Trans Am's calling card by calling it a dead bird. Gm put that on the cars because people of that time period wanted that. It was a statement. Much like racing stripes are now and were at several other points in time. The car that is most often associated with racing stripes is the F-body Camaro. A car Groucho seems to have issues with because of its rear axle and lack of refinement.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Tom said:


> To years ago this time I was considering selling my 944S2 and RX7 convertible(and maybe firebird convertible) and buying a used 3 series convertible.
> 
> When I saw asking prices of 5 year old 330s in the mid 20s i commented to my buddy that they were in new sebring convertible territory. He told me i was nuts. for the same money you get a drop top, warranty, lease, etc.
> 
> ...


I was considering the Accord V6 6spd when shopping for the GTO. As a matter of fact they were discounting the Accord from 27315 down to 25400 and giving me 2.9%. 
I disagree that the GTO name brings the car down. You said yourself that the Lexus SC400 was the car that the GTO/GS/442 could have been. Well this is it now. It is a muscle car in the true sense of what they were. A mid size with the Big V8, upgraded suspension, best brakes in the parts bin, and a nice interior. The muscle cars were never meant to compete with the lesser pony cars. But they were meant to do well at the drag strip and go to dinner with the wife at a nice place without looking like you borrowed your sons car. If you wanted to take a road trip, you drove the GTO, not the Mustang or Camaro. 
I don't think GM killed Olds because it was starting to get respect. Olds was killed because it was a duplicate of Pontiac. GM did not need the duplicate marketing costs for the same product. The Aurora was the exception. They tried really hard to make the Aurora a seperate line from Olds when it initially came to market, but it failed to establish brand idenity. It was marketed through Olds dealers and people called it an Olds. The same would have happened with calling this car a Holden and selling it through Pontiac dealers. If they wanted to make it a Holden then they should have brought the whole line here, not just one car. Set up a seperate dealer network. Then they could have set it apart from the standard GM fare. But that would have killed Pontiacs chances for a rebirth. So they would have had the expense of setting up a new dealer network, marketing an unknown name, and at the same time killing an established brand, and disposing of all the Pontiac dealers. In addittion they got such bad press for the death of Olds they were fearfull of the backlash and the effects it would have on the rest of GM if they did it again. 
As far as GM standing behind their product, I think it matters more what dealer you take the car in for service to. Remember, most GM dealers are large multi-brand operations. When my Camaro went in for service, the dealer came 12 miles to my office and left me a car while they changed the oil and rotated the tires. I got a Mobil 1 oil change for 45 bucks and that included a tire rotation. I never had to do anything other than that to it.
My Corvette was bought used and was a problem child. I think it was in an accident. The dealer got several things covered under warranty even though the warranties time had expired. Different dealer than the first Chevy dealer, so they did't pick the car up, but they did shuttle me back to work. They never had to keep the car overnight. When I first took the Vette to this dealer, and it was not the dealer I had purchased the car at, the service manager pulled up a full service history of the car from GM records and gave that to me so that I had a little history of the car. He also checked to make sure any recalls or TSB's were performed. I think it is the dealer more than the car.
Now for all the anti GM, my car is not a Pontiac, I would never buy an American car people, why did you buy the car? It's typical GM parts bin engineering, just screwed together buy a division other than Pontiac. Holden has the same issues in Australia as the rest of GM has here. So I know it's not the Holden name.


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## PWR_SHIFT (Feb 10, 2005)

The difference between Holden and Pontiac is that Holden works off the GM-Europe foundation. 

Case in point - the GTO/Monaro foundation is an Opel Omega which was made to compete with a BMW 3/5 series on a GM budget. The Camaro/Firebird was made to compete with the 'stang. I think the targets pretty much determined the outcome. I hope future Pontiacs don't set their sights too low, and if Solstice drives and feels as good as it looks, the renaissance has began.


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## mc364 (Nov 14, 2004)

I think the whole branding concept is over rated. To regain market share GM needs to build cars that people want to buy. If brands are so important how can Korean car makers sell 250,000 units a year with little no brand identity (mention a Korean car and all I can think of is a 10 year warranty). If you don't beleive me wait until Chinese car manufacturers start selling in the US.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

fergyflyer said:


> Exactly!!!!
> Gm is rebuilding Cadilac, they have turned the corner. Now they are starting with Pontiac and this is the car. Hopefully, and I hate that word, with this and the Solstice things will change at the Pontiac store too. I know I wasn't looking for a big discount or a large rebate, I was looking for the right car.


Exactly???? You say that like I proved your point. One good car does not mean that you've turned the corner in the court of consumer opionion. One of the reasons Olds fell flat on their face with the Aurora was they designed a very good car (for it's time) and they immediately tried to price it at Lexus, Acura, Volvo, BMW levels. They were asking list price too. I know because I shopped for one in 1995 and walked away laughing to buy a Volvo 850 Turbo that served me flawlessly for ten years. And where is Olds today? Exactly!!!!!

Lexus on the other hand underpriced their cars for years and then slowly, as market recognition of their quality came, they crept the prices upward into Mercedes territory over the course of two decades. That's the way you build a brand.

PM me in 2 decades and I'll give you my vote on Pontiac. 

Meanwhile, I think the GTO is that "one good car". And at $31K it was priced very well relative to the competition.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

fergyflyer said:


> Now for all the anti GM, my car is not a Pontiac, I would never buy an American car people, why did you buy the car? It's typical GM parts bin engineering, just screwed together buy a division other than Pontiac. Holden has the same issues in Australia as the rest of GM has here. So I know it's not the Holden name.


_Sigh._ I think we've discovered something denser than depleted uranium.

To again belabor what we've already established...

1) I sense little "anti-GM" here. Holden is a GM division. Some simply shun Pontiac, for reasons stated _ad nauseum_ above.

2) The parts used in this car come from a different supply chain than domesticly-assembled cars...thus the superior fit, finish, and materials. It stands out from the rest of the substandard vehicles in the Pontiac stable_by far_. If anyone chooses to defend the quality materials and engineering of Grand Am / Prix and Sunbird...or the euthanized F-Body, for that matter, go for it.

3) This car was engineered and built far from the group of underacheivers who designed and built the hideous abortions that became the Grand Prix, Grand Am, and, yes, Aztek. As stated several times now, the car is far more Euro than Domestic.



fergyflyer said:


> The car that is most often associated with racing stripes is the F-body Camaro. A car Groucho seems to have issues with because of its rear axle and lack of refinement.


Good idea...we'll just ignore the decades of of other cars from around the world that carried longitudinal stripes. Oh, and a BMW 2002tii has a "lack of refinement." A Camaro has a "lack of discernable quality control."

They're different, you see.


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)




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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

b_a_betterperson said:


>


_*Werd.*_ :lol: 

...now where is my plastic helmet...?


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## Tom (Nov 1, 2004)

Wing_Nut said:


> Lexus on the other hand underpriced their cars for years and then slowly, as market recognition of their quality came, they crept the prices upward into Mercedes territory over the course of two decades. That's the way you build a brand.


i think lexus was "underpriced" in 1990 more as a result of the dollar against the yen vs against the deutschemark.

Ive read that the f bodies were killed because they couldnt meet the newer crash tests. maybe it is because the design was 20 years old, while the competion went through five versions in that time.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Tom said:


> i think lexus was "underpriced" in 1990 more as a result of the dollar against the yen vs against the deutschemark.
> 
> Ive read that the f bodies were killed because they couldnt meet the newer crash tests. maybe it is because the design was 20 years old, while the competion went through five versions in that time.


 :agree 

I've owned two LS1 F-bodies and they had extremely hard miles and nothing broke, nothing rattled, no leaks, no tears in the seats etc.... 
GM had decided in 97 to kill them in 2000. With the LS1 they sold too well so they extended them as long as they could with that body and air bag design. The actual platform for the fourth gen F-body was all new in 93 so in 02 it was at least 12yrs old.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Groucho said:


> _Sigh._ I think we've discovered something denser than depleted uranium.
> 
> So now you need to insult me. WEAK RESPONSE.
> 
> ...



Yeah one is a European snob mobile that is unreliable, and the other is an American muscle car that is unbreakable with serious abuse. I know denser than depleted uranium. Come do better than that.


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## 73LS4 (Apr 22, 2005)

I just joined this forum a few days ago... and have spent hours reading all the posts. Incredibly interesting to hear peoples' opinions on American vs foreign cars, etc. Car culture is fascinating. I've owned 52 vehicles, 10 Corvettes, 2 GTOs, 2 442s, 5 El Caminos, blah blah. I've migrated mostly to Toyota and Honda the last few years, mostly for resale value. Every time I venture back to the American side I get burned... Mustang GT Convertible, GMC Z71 pickup, GMC Envoy... nuff said. One of my favorite passtimes is going to Pontiac dealers to test drive GTOs, though I'm retired and I have LOTS of time... so I've test driven just about anything u can name. 

Most of my Corvettes I owned when I lived in IL, because they were the only thing that didn't rust and held their resale value, and I was young and single and didn't need practicality. When I moved out west, I rediscovered GM A bodies, because they didn't rust out here. I love to drive them much more than Corvettes, just because they aren't claustrophobic, and they do so many more functions than a sports car.

Car culture is fascinating, especially in that people have different opinions largely based on where they live in the world. People are incredibly brand conscious. The difference between car culture in the midwest and the west coast is amazing. I visited Australia and New Zealand 2 winters ago and spent more time watching cars than scenery. Amazing how many cars u see there that have different names on them than they do in the US. My favorite was a Toyota Previa that had the name "Emina" on it there. There are no Acuras there, they all have Honda names on them. I only saw 2 full size pickups in both countries. Most of the pickups are small 4 door versions, or ones that look like ElCaminos... both Holden and Ford versions. Probably half the cars there have trailer hitches on them. They build a Ford Falcon that looks like a Taurus, but it's rear wheel drive.

A little background on Holden... from what I've read... and if there are any AU brethren in here, please correct me. James Alexander Holden started a body building company around 1917 about the time GM decided AU was a good market for car chassis. After WWII GM had infused enough capital into Holden that they were in bed with them, much like they are with several other auto companies around the world. It's interesting that they kept the Holden name all this time, but I suspect it was mostly for patriotic and marketing reasons. I bought a magazine on Holden history while I was in Sydney, and I have several friends in AU that send me Holden brochures. Holden Special Vehicles (HSV) is the Holden division that builds the high performance versions. There is a Monaro Coupe GTO in my HSV brochure. So to those that think it just says GTO on the Pontiac... WRONG. To those that think the GTO name was first used by Pontiac... WRONG. I know that Ferrari used it before Pontiac, probably some others too. The Monaro name had been used back in the 60s and then dropped, and there was much concern about reintroducing the name, much like the GTO controversy here.

To say I'm an Australia and Holden fanatic would be an understatement. My father always drove Oldsmobiles, I sold Chevrolets from 71-74, and I've always been a GM fan... but I feel like we were sold down the road during the 70s and 80s by corporate idiots that forced us to buy something else. I'm convinced if we hadn't bought Japanese and European, they'd still be trying to peddle the junk they were producing then.

When I heard they were going to bring a Monaro here and call it a Pontiac GTO, I was very concerned. I know how brand conscious humans are. I knew the Monaro GTO was a great car, but calling it a Pontiac GTO would rile the feathers of the old GTO fans... and be a slap in the face to Holden fans in AU. I'm extremely irritated when I see GM try to resurrect any revered brand and put it on a piece of crap to try and generate interest in it, e.g., Malibu, Impala, SS, etc. To risk ruining both the GTO and Holden brands this way I thought was really dumb. There are several cars built in AU on that chassis with the 5.7 V8 in them. Most of them would have sold better in the US than the Monaro. I base that opinion on the fact that GM had to discontinue selling the Camaro and Firebird because they didn't sell enough units. Americans have migrated to 4 doors, trucks, and SUVs, mostly because they're more practical, I'd guess... since I've done the same thing. If they had brought the Clubsport R8, Maloo R8, or even the One Tonner here and sold it under the Holden name, they wouldn't have risked offending the GTO name, and I'm convinced those models would have even sold better, because they're more useful and unique. The Clubsport R8 is a 4 door M5 killer. The Maloo R8 is the most radical ElCamino I've ever seen, but unlike the SSR, u could actually haul something in the back and still get good gas mileage. The One Tonner is just plain outrageous. As for the Holden designation, I'd much rather have that on my GM car than one of their other loser American brands (at least that's the way people on the west coast see it). I'm guessing it would even hold its resale value better with the Holden name on it.

Unfortunately badging the Monaro the way they did, they just created confusion and hard feelings. That equates to bad sales, which equates to horrible resale value, and may even cause GM to stop importing them. We've all seen that formula before.

I'm so bored with my current full time vehicle that I've even rationalized I could get along with a sport coupe again... for awhile. I stumbled onto a new leftover 04 GTO a couple days ago for about $23K, and even thought I'd take a chance, at that price. Unfortunately it was a yellow automatic, and I love the silver with red hot 6M. Went thru all the inventory on the Pontiac site, and only automatics left in that combination. Damn! Probably gonna buy a used Accord Coupe V6 6 speed (amazing how much it drives like a GTO), drive it for a year, and then find a used 05 GTO silver/red. I don't drive many miles and can't rationalize $10K in depreciation every year.

Here's to all of u that took the gamble. I know u love your cars !!! And BTW, if u haven't heard, GM has started a blog... supposedly it was Bob Lutz's idea... so please contribute !!! I want GM to be the car company they used to be, but not at my expense!!!

http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/


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## II-Savy (Jan 12, 2005)

fergyflyer said:


> :agree
> 
> I've owned two LS1 F-bodies and they had extremely hard miles and nothing broke, nothing rattled, no leaks, no tears in the seats etc....QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

II-Savy said:


> fergyflyer said:
> 
> 
> > :agree
> ...


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

Toyota sixes have been known to get clogged with sludge while the Nissan/Infiniti 4.5 eight might as well be called a diesel because it burns so much oil. Both should have massive recalls -- but nothing has happened, yet. In the meantime, Toyota and Nissan are basically telling their customers to stuff it by asking for proof of every oil change, etc. If you miss one by 1 mile or have it done by anybody other than one of their dopey dealers -- they don't work with you.

Remember when Toyota fought a recall because the seat belts on their cars wouldn't work? Their attitude was that Americans were causing the problems because they were slobs (getting food, dirt and soft drinks into the latch mechanism). Funny how people seem to forget stuff like that.

Dammit, you just can't throw a blanket over all American cars and call them crap -- or all imports great. In fact, Mercedes are absolute bug riddled pieces of crap right now. My neighbor dropped $150K for an AMG Kompressor S-Class sedan -- and I see him driving around in a C240 coupe with giant ZIPPITYDODAH MERCEDES SERVICE COMPLIMENTARY CUSTOMER CAR decals on it more than the car he blew a fortune on. Oh, well.


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## PWR_SHIFT (Feb 10, 2005)

The biggest problem the U.S. industry faces today is public perception (the start of which was, without question, its own fault). 

I started my car ownership days driving European Fords (please hold the abuse), then 2nd gen F-bodies, then I switched to Japanese sports cars for a while, then 7 years ago went back to domestics again. The progress American cars have made in terms of build quality & reliability has been tremendous. Period. The pity is that plenty of folks out there do not know this because their perceptions are frozen in time through the image perpetuated by the far-from-even-sided media that loves to beat a on its own, it must be that ingrained hatred of domestic "big business" that drives it (the media loves to do this not just with respect to the car industry). 

The last 9 domestic cars we've had in the family have had a couple of issues between them (no chronic problems and nothing I'd call major), but those didn't compare to the nasty electrical gremlins my acquaintances have had with their VWs and Audis. Fact: The best cars for quality today are mostly Toyotas, Hondas and (believe it or not) Hyundais. The "other" Jap and Korean cars are a step below (some more than 1) and not much, if any, better than most domestics. Fact: Most Europeans (even when you spend big dollars) are actually quite weak. However, it's the Toyotas & Hondas that set up the public perception for Jap quality, while Euros seem to have their own Continental "discriminating taste" mystique. 

The basic problem for the domestics is that in this business perception is reality, as people feed on every first-page horror story of a domestic recall, while rarely laying their eyes on a small middle-of-the-business-section blurb about an imported snafu. As a result, the terminally image conscious and other poseurs, especially prevalent on the West coast, fall off automatically.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

PWR_SHIFT said:


> The basic problem for the domestics is that in this business perception is reality, as people feed on every first-page horror story of a domestic recall, while rarely laying their eyes on a small middle-of-the-business-section blurb about an imported snafu. As a result, the terminally image conscious and other poseurs, especially prevalent on the West coast, fall off automatically.


Perception is part of the problem but there are real hardware differences as well and and the "Shrinking 3" just don't seem to get it. 

Go look at the interior on the new Mustang. Cheap plastic. Look at the the interior on the 300C. Four exposed screws at the bottom of the center console. It's 1985 all over again. Now go look at the interior of an Audi. Then take a look at a Toyota, Honda, Volkswagen. 

The Asians and Europeans have moved on to modern overhead-cam, multivalve, multicam, engines that are smooth as silk. They have moved on to 5 & 6 speed automatics that make better use of an engines output. 

The "Shrinking 3" are still selling 40+ year old pushrod 2 valve engine designs (with the exception of Ford). Most domestic automatics are still 4 speeds. This gives the "furreners" a way to differentiate themselves in a glossy brochure and ad copy. And they do.

Don't mistake the above comment as a knock on pushrod engines. I think GM has done great things with the LS2. Redline is up to 6500 RPM, lots of torque in a broad flat band, very good fuel efficiency, and solid reliability. But, as far as I can tell, they do absolutely nothing to let the world know that these are viable alternatives to the twin cammers. The perception is that these are tired old designs from the 50's and GM hasn't put any money into them. Look at the way they thow a plastic shroud on the valve covers of GTO, Vette, 300C, etc to make them look like an OHC engine. If that isn't apologizing for your technology I don't know what is. Take off the useless plastic and put a set of cast valve covers on that engine. Chrome those suckers. Make people want an LS2.

GM has shown that they have the capability to make some very good cars but, they have also demonstrated they don't have the will to be a great company. So far.

Ford....well, there's just no hope. Good thing trucks are popular.

Chrysler....is so close to breaking out. 300C, Crossfire, SRT4, Minivans, Pacifica, Prowler, Viper. Just get the quality right.


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## PWR_SHIFT (Feb 10, 2005)

Wing_Nut - 

What you're basically pointing to is that the "furreners" play a more effective marketing game, but look at my post and see who's helping 'em - our own freakin' self-loathing media, as though because if you wrote a column about it somehow that puts you above the rest of the population. It's a known fact, at least to those who know something about engineering, that on the balance, for the money, considering weight and packaging, the pushrod V8 is more effective than a DOHC one. I bet you coudn't even fit a Northstar into the GTO's engine bay. So, what would you rather have, a low torque/high HP multi-valve screamin' V6 for 40 large or an LS2 for 30? Enough said.

Also, do consider Chrysler a little closer, their long term reliability is way, way up - personal and family experience here with a multitude of recent examples(much better than VW/Audi stuff for example). The 300C for 35K is a vehicle that dynamically competes with cars in the 50K+ range, the couple exposed screws you might've found are a miniscule price to pay for a vehicle of such caliber at a bargain price. Preconceived notions are like an anchor on a person's brain.


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## Tom (Nov 1, 2004)

fergyflyer said:


> :agree
> 
> I've owned two LS1 F-bodies and they had extremely hard miles and nothing broke, nothing rattled, no leaks, no tears in the seats etc....
> GM had decided in 97 to kill them in 2000. With the LS1 they sold too well so they extended them as long as they could with that body and air bag design. The actual platform for the fourth gen F-body was all new in 93 so in 02 it was at least 12yrs old.


yes and no. the floorplan was a carryover, thats why there is a jump for the catalytic converter. i think it was new from the windshield forward.


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## II-Savy (Jan 12, 2005)

PWR_SHIFT said:


> Wing_Nut -
> 
> lso, do consider Chrysler a little closer, their long term reliability is way, way up - personal and family experience here with a multitude of recent examples(much better than VW/Audi stuff for example). The 300C for 35K is a vehicle that dynamically competes with cars in the 50K+ range, the couple exposed screws you might've found are a miniscule price to pay for a vehicle of such caliber at a bargain price. Preconceived notions are like an anchor on a person's brain.


The 300c does NOT compete successfully against these cars. The exposed screws are just a small example of how shotty the quality and refinement are. How about the body lines? How do the doors match up? These are not PREconceived notions. I look at the car and see this and that and the other thing then make my decision.


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## GTOJon (Jan 25, 2005)

II-Savy said:


> fergyflyer said:
> 
> 
> > :agree
> ...


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

I just wanna say...

This thread _rocks_. :cheers

_Nine_ frikken pages. Hee.


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## Tom (Nov 1, 2004)

my buddy had an 82 firebird SE with the WS6 option. the car was a joke compared to my 83 RX7 GSL. the firebird squeaked, rattled, leaked etc. my 93 Z28 was a whole different car i was very surprised at how nice it was compared to my buddies 82 (which i ordered new with him three days after the model was introduced). i got the 93 in 03. i didnt have t tops, didnt squeak, had suspension mods and handled nicely, but with the bilsteins it was just too stiff.

and i am surprised the moderators are too damn liberal here allowing this thread to go on. it should have been closed as soon as someone said GM didnt always make the finest products.


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## FoMoGo (Apr 22, 2005)

Tom said:


> and i am surprised the moderators are too damn liberal here allowing this thread to go on. it should have been closed as soon as someone said GM didnt always make the finest products.


One thing I like about this place, open talk and sharing of opinions is encouraged.
I worked as a salesman for a chevrolet dealer in 95-96, I spent a lot of time talking with our service writers and mechanics.
GM was about bottom of the barrel then, talking to my mechanic friends, they are not much better... for the most part.

Never EVER let brand loyalty cloud your vision of reality.
I have a brand preferance... but no brand loyalty.
Never understood blind brand loyalty.
I check out all the brands every year or 2.
Some rise and some fall in my preferance.

Every maker can make a lemon, just as its possible for an exceptional ringer to slip out now and then.

If more people would open their eyes and minds... The world of the automobile would be a much better place for them.


Jim


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

Tom said:


> and i am surprised the moderators are too damn liberal here allowing this thread to go on. it should have been closed as soon as someone said GM didnt always make the finest products.


Sarcasm duly noted, and approved.

:rofl: 

And...that's the first time I've been called _liberal_...


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

PWR_SHIFT said:


> The biggest problem the U.S. industry faces today is public perception (the start of which was, without question, its own fault).
> 
> I started my car ownership days driving European Fords (please hold the abuse), then 2nd gen F-bodies, then I switched to Japanese sports cars for a while, then 7 years ago went back to domestics again. The progress American cars have made in terms of build quality & reliability has been tremendous. Period. The pity is that plenty of folks out there do not know this because their perceptions are frozen in time through the image perpetuated by the far-from-even-sided media that loves to beat a on its own, it must be that ingrained hatred of domestic "big business" that drives it (the media loves to do this not just with respect to the car industry).
> 
> ...


 :agree


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

b_a_betterperson said:


> Toyota sixes have been known to get clogged with sludge while the Nissan/Infiniti 4.5 eight might as well be called a diesel because it burns so much oil. Both should have massive recalls -- but nothing has happened, yet. In the meantime, Toyota and Nissan are basically telling their customers to stuff it by asking for proof of every oil change, etc. If you miss one by 1 mile or have it done by anybody other than one of their dopey dealers -- they don't work with you.
> 
> Remember when Toyota fought a recall because the seat belts on their cars wouldn't work? Their attitude was that Americans were causing the problems because they were slobs (getting food, dirt and soft drinks into the latch mechanism). Funny how people seem to forget stuff like that.
> 
> Dammit, you just can't throw a blanket over all American cars and call them crap -- or all imports great. In fact, Mercedes are absolute bug riddled pieces of crap right now. My neighbor dropped $150K for an AMG Kompressor S-Class sedan -- and I see him driving around in a C240 coupe with giant ZIPPITYDODAH MERCEDES SERVICE COMPLIMENTARY CUSTOMER CAR decals on it more than the car he blew a fortune on. Oh, well.


 :agree


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

Funny how my problems with being affiliated with the reputation for substandard cars reflected by most auto enthusiasts when they hear the Pontiac name has suddenly become a sweeping slam against _all_ "domestic" cars, whatever the hell that means.

I did not make that point. The subject of my derision is aimed specifically at Pontiac because, well, their cars suck and have sucked for a very long time. This has led to a well-earned reputation for sucktacular vehicles. Luckily, my _Holden_ isn't collected in this avalanche of suckdom.

Went to the Pontiac dealer today, as wifey is thinking about getting a GTO...I wanted to show her what Impulse Blue looked like.

This gave me a chance to look at the other Red Wedgie offerings.

Awful.

_*Grand Am:*_ Thank God they finally put a bullet between the cheap plastic eyes of this rather nasty and horrifically cheap contraption. C'mon...the _Koreans_ make better cars now.

_*Grand Prix:*_ This is the true poseur's "sport sedan"...but the fact that the dynamics of a FWD car are not condusive to spirited driving seems to fall on deaf ears at GM. Besides, what is with that cheap Iranian Whorehouse interior?

*Sunfire:* :rofl: 

*Aztek:* I was afraid to go near it. I have kids, after all...and anything that ugly had to be evil.

*Bonneville:* Nice Buick, Gramps. Vomit-inducing interior.

Not all was bad...there is signs of life.

*G6:* Nice sheetmetal, thankfully pretty much free on the Hot Wheels on Acid look of the others in the lineup. Interior looks nice. Could this be the dawning of reason in the Red Wedgie camp? Does Oprah Winfrey even fit in it? Stay tuned.

_*Solstice:*_ We shall see...


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## PWR_SHIFT (Feb 10, 2005)

II-Savy said:


> The 300c does NOT compete successfully against these cars. The exposed screws are just a small example of how shotty the quality and refinement are. How about the body lines? How do the doors match up? These are not PREconceived notions. I look at the car and see this and that and the other thing then make my decision.


Have you actually, no, I mean really, driven one? IMO the 300 rocks, and for the price it's a borderline steal (+ whatever lines-up or doesn't is at least in the same league with the GTO), except I'm not in the market for a big 4 luxury door. To each his own, and just like colors, taste can't be argued with, not successfully anyway. Besides, I've found what fits my taste and driving style already . . . on the goodness of that one, thankfully, I think we can agree.


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## NoBMWforME (Apr 12, 2005)

So last Friday I was at work and a person I have worked with for 15 years stopped by to help me with some issues at work and we drifted into personal conversation, kids, friends and yes cars. We talked about his car, BMW 740i and others that we know Porsche's etc. Then I dropped the bomb. I sold my BMW. He says, "really? What did you get?" I answered proudly, and in a firm voice "I bought a Pontiac." He was silent. It was like I had married my cousin. He did not know what to say. Then I asked if he had ever heard of a GTO and he said of course! I told him that Pontiac had reintroduced the Holden as the GTO in the states and I told him I would take him for a ride......by the time we were done with the ride, he was grinning from ear to ear and praising the car. I think the point of this thread is the silence after I told my friend what I had bought. That is a very very difficult issue for GM to overcome. I call that negative brand equity. Whatever the reason is, it is NEGATIVE. Has anyone else had this experience? In a funny way, I have become very proud of telling people I have a Pontiac, just to see their reactions! Some are enthusiastic, others roll their eyes and some just give you the blank/dumb stare.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

NoBMWforME said:


> So last Friday I was at work and a person I have worked with for 15 years stopped by to help me with some issues at work and we drifted into personal conversation, kids, friends and yes cars. We talked about his car, BMW 740i and others that we know Porsche's etc. Then I dropped the bomb. I sold my BMW. He says, "really? What did you get?" I answered proudly, and in a firm voice "I bought a Pontiac." He was silent. It was like I had married my cousin. He did not know what to say. Then I asked if he had ever heard of a GTO and he said of course! I told him that Pontiac had reintroduced the Holden as the GTO in the states and I told him I would take him for a ride......by the time we were done with the ride, he was grinning from ear to ear and praising the car. I think the point of this thread is the silence after I told my friend what I had bought. That is a very very difficult issue for GM to overcome. I call that negative brand equity. Whatever the reason is, it is NEGATIVE. Has anyone else had this experience? In a funny way, I have become very proud of telling people I have a Pontiac, just to see their reactions! Some are entusiastic, others roll their eyes and some just give you the blank/dumb stare.


What we have is two different groups moving toward the same car. If I were to drop the bomb and tell my friends that I had bought a BMW, they would have asked if I had lost my mind. We all make decent money 75k a year to 125k, and we all live in lower cost of living areas, but if I were to spend that kind of money on a car, they would think I was nuts. 
The GTO is 6 series sized for less than 4 series ( BMW is going to 4 series for the 3 series coupe this year I think) price and is 95% as good. Same can be said about Cadilacs, Lexus' and Infinitis. We tend to put more emphasis on value and your friend puts value on status and perfection at any cost. 

The whole thing comes back to, this car is good enough to satisfy both. My hope is that it will keep wearing the Pontiac logo and there will be more to follow.


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## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

I wrote this to get this thread to 10 pages


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## DaveGesp (Oct 8, 2004)

GTODEALER said:


> I wrote this to get this thread to 10 pages



What happens if it goes beyond 10 pages? :confused


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## Braman'sGTO (Mar 14, 2005)

:cheers arty:


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

GTODEALER said:


> I wrote this to get this thread to 10 pages


Slackers.

Let's get this damned thing to 20!


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

NoBMWforME said:


> So last Friday I was at work and a person I have worked with for 15 years stopped by to help me with some issues at work and we drifted into personal conversation, kids, friends and yes cars. We talked about his car, BMW 740i and others that we know Porsche's etc. Then I dropped the bomb. I sold my BMW. He says, "really? What did you get?" I answered proudly, and in a firm voice "I bought a Pontiac." He was silent. It was like I had married my cousin. He did not know what to say. Then I asked if he had ever heard of a GTO and he said of course! I told him that Pontiac had reintroduced the Holden as the GTO in the states and I told him I would take him for a ride......by the time we were done with the ride, he was grinning from ear to ear and praising the car. I think the point of this thread is the silence after I told my friend what I had bought. That is a very very difficult issue for GM to overcome. I call that negative brand equity. Whatever the reason is, it is NEGATIVE. Has anyone else had this experience? In a funny way, I have become very proud of telling people I have a Pontiac, just to see their reactions! Some are enthusiastic, others roll their eyes and some just give you the blank/dumb stare.



Congratulations on having the guts to come out of the closet and show off to your friends in your new red wedgie. Anxious moments indeed.

It is fun watching the look on friends faces when you tell them you bought a Pontiac. They don't want to be impolite but they really think you need an intervention followed by a 12 step program. But, I could care less. This car has nothing to apolgize for.


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## PWR_SHIFT (Feb 10, 2005)

Wing_Nut said:


> Congratulations on having the guts to come out of the closet and show off to your friends in your new red wedgie. Anxious moments indeed.
> 
> It is fun watching the look on friends faces when you tell them you bought a Pontiac. They don't want to be impolite but they really think you need an intervention followed by a 12 step program. But, I could care less. This car has nothing to apolgize for.


Throw out that you got the Cavalier's/Sunfire's big brother, and see how that gets 'em.

(We just might hit that 20 per your wish, Groucho)


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

PWR_SHIFT said:


> Throw out that you got the Cavalier's/Sunfire's big brother, and see how that gets 'em.
> 
> (We just might hit that 20 per your wish, Groucho)


That's the spirit!


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## Tom (Nov 1, 2004)

I read Groucho's post on the current GM offerings and while I am not a fan of the product, i disagree with how bad they are.

For 15k I could have gotten a brand new optioned sunfire coupe with an auto and sunroof around this time two years ago. that was pretty cheap for a knock around car that would take me to and from the station reliably for seven years.

we foolishly got rid of a Legend Coupe to buy the Aurora in 02, which is the same car as the bonnevile GXP. I have a bad back, and the seats are the most comfortable of any seats (even the GTO because they have a lumbar that goes up and down) for our bad backs. The aurora has some real wood inside so it spruces it up. the quality is definitely not as good as the Acura RLs, but i got the car, an 01 in 02 for 11k less than I could have gotten a equally optioned 02 RL for. the northstar is a great motor, silky smooth, even torque. for months my wife would get out of the aurora turn around to look at it in disbelief that it is as big as it is. dont forget, she was driving our 944S2 and RX7 convert as well.

the aztek, yep it is ugly, but when it came out it had a lot of functional goodies, like radio switches by the tailgate, cup holders in the tailgate. if they changed the nose early on, they may have been able to rescue it. the concept was brilliant, just something got lost between the concept and execution.

my gripe as most already know is with the service dept, and poor customer service.


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## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

Hello, I'm looking for 20 pages.........would you look at that......99 replys...


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

Tom said:


> my gripe as most already know is with the service dept, and poor customer service.


Hmmm..that obviously varies from dealership to dealership, but I've been very happy with the customer service and my whole experience with my local dealer. My salesguy was very knowledgeable (a good thing, because nothing pisses me off faster than when I know more about the car than the dealer does)...and has become a very good aquaintance of mine. A big shout out goes to Richard at Motor City in Bakersfield!

The only time I've had Das Goat in for service at the dealership was to fix a blown speaker (it came pre-blown-- the only problem I've has with the car) and the people were pleasant and professional. I've had much worse experiences at the Volvo/M-B dealer down the road with my wife's V70 2.5T wagon!!!!

So...the individual dealers are _not_ the problem, at least in my experience...GM just needs to fill their pipeline with cars that live up to their attempted "Excitement" branding!


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## NoBMWforME (Apr 12, 2005)

Funny you should mention the service departments and dealers. One of the first things I noticed here in the LA area is the complete lack of interest in doing any work to sell their cars. I went to three dealers and after I visited the dealer, only one sales manager would call me back. I had my BMW as a trade in and it was if they did not know what to do with it. I know that most trade in's are wholesaled these days, but it was like it was a major inconvenience to look at the trade. (Seems like it is tough to do business if you aren't aggressive about trade-ins.) They waste your time by doing an "inspection" only to offer you significantly less than book. Heck, they could have done that without even looking at the car! It does not bother me that I sold the car for $5K over what the dealers were offering me, it just bothered me that they were so inept at their game. Then the condition of the dealers was horrible. I attributed it to being a situation of urban dealerships. Their knowledge of the cars was weak. I gave a lesson on the GTO to more than one salesman. I finally bought my GTO from what seems to me to be a great dealer. They were very prideful of their dealership and they had their act together. Haven't needed the service department yet, but at least they appear competant.

We have been sitting here bashing the product and wondering how GM could screw up the marketing of this car so badly, GM has another big problem, its dealers. Walking into a Pontiac dealer where I live is like walking into a "dead zone." Two out of the three dealers I went to couldn't sell me anything if they had to.

Maybe there is a dealer that could explain better why some are better than others, but more importantly, why so many are so bad.


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## NoBMWforME (Apr 12, 2005)

Obviously, Groucho has very limited experience here. Perhaps he knew what he wanted got lucky with a good dealer and is happy. My experience was different, I spent over a month trolling dealerships looking for my car...finally found a good dealer too. Problem...the dealer is almost 20 miles from my house, this means an hour in LA traffic.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

NoBMWforME said:


> Obviously, Groucho has very limited experience here. Perhaps he knew what he wanted got lucky with a good dealer and is happy. My experience was different, I spent over a month trolling dealerships looking for my car...finally found a good dealer too. Problem...the dealer is almost 20 miles from my house, this means an hour in LA traffic.


Sniveling is as good a way as any to pad the post count! Good thinking!

(Just giving you a hard time- hee)


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## NoBMWforME (Apr 12, 2005)

OK, you got me, I am just upset that I did not get to be post #100. I hit the submit button only to find you beat me out while I was proofing my post.


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## Tom (Nov 1, 2004)

now you are starting to piss me off groucho!
Of course you have not had problems with your dealer. you dont have a domestic car, hence you dont have the need for dealers.

I fixed the flopping headliner in my GTO. took about ten minutes and that included my two temporary incorrect fixes. the bright MPH and occasional 200 mph speedometer will be ignored, as will the rough seat tracks. 

now if you had a domestic like my aurora, and had to take the car in four times because it stalled only to be told "could not duplicate". no kidding, thats why it is called an intermittent stall on the TSB they didnt bother to read. how bout the front end shimmy, five trips, three times for wheel balancing, and nobody read the TSB.

That is inept. That is why I drive an foreign car, and my wife unfortunately drives a domestic!

I also left my information with three local dealers asking them to call me when the rebate goes up, but bought from one 20 miles further away because the guy returned my email and phone call. still waiting by the phone for them to call.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

Tom said:


> now you are starting to piss me off groucho!
> Of course you have not had problems with your dealer. you dont have a domestic car, hence you dont have the need for dealers.


Now you're getting it! It's all a mind-game. I have decided-- _correctly_-- that my car is _not_ a domestic car and is thus perfect in every conceivable way.


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## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

COME ON PAGE 20!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cheers


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

NoBMWforME said:


> Funny you should mention the service departments and dealers. One of the first things I noticed here in the LA area is the complete lack of interest in doing any work to sell their cars. I went to three dealers and after I visited the dealer, only one sales manager would call me back. I had my BMW as a trade in and it was if they did not know what to do with it. I know that most trade in's are wholesaled these days, but it was like it was a major inconvenience to look at the trade. (Seems like it is tough to do business if you aren't aggressive about trade-ins.) They waste your time by doing an "inspection" only to offer you significantly less than book. Heck, they could have done that without even looking at the car! It does not bother me that I sold the car for $5K over what the dealers were offering me, it just bothered me that they were so inept at their game. Then the condition of the dealers was horrible. I attributed it to being a situation of urban dealerships. Their knowledge of the cars was weak. I gave a lesson on the GTO to more than one salesman. I finally bought my GTO from what seems to me to be a great dealer. They were very prideful of their dealership and they had their act together. Haven't needed the service department yet, but at least they appear competant.
> 
> We have been sitting here bashing the product and wondering how GM could screw up the marketing of this car so badly, GM has another big problem, its dealers. Walking into a Pontiac dealer where I live is like walking into a "dead zone." Two out of the three dealers I went to couldn't sell me anything if they had to.
> 
> Maybe there is a dealer that could explain better why some are better than others, but more importantly, why so many are so bad.


I looked at a Honda Accord coupe with the 6spd. I liked the car and almost bought it except for the ineptitude of the dealer. The salesman didn't know how to work the XM radio, didn't know whether the car required premium, didn't know the size of the tires, how much horsepower the car made, and couldn't be bothered to look at the window sticker to tell me the fuel mileage. He immediately told me on the test drive that they were taking 1800 off sticker on all V6 Accords and the told me about 2.9% from Honda for 60 months. When we got back to the dealership I asked to see the service department and was told it was closed. It took the salesman about a half hour to fill out the initial paperwork to get a trade-in value on my Corvette Z06. At that point it was now 8pm on a Thursday. The Salesmanager came over about a half hour later and told me he had no idea what my car was worth and would call me the next day. He was in at 9 and my "salesman" was in at 11. They would call me by 12. At 1pm they still hadn't called, so I called. The salesman forgot who I was. After reminding him, he told me he needed to talk to his manager to get the numbers, but would call me back. He never called. Saturday I gave him one more chance. I called him and he told me again that he needed to talk to his manager and he was very busy. Two weeks later he called me to let me know that they had gotten a Corvette on trade and wanted to know if I would like to test drive it.  
First Pontiac store I stopped at the Salesman had only been there for a month and he didn't know what a GTO was. 
The second salesman got the sale, but had limited knowledge of the car. He was a nice guy and knew where to get answers for the things he didn't know.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

NoBMWforME said:


> Obviously, Groucho has very limited experience here. Perhaps he knew what he wanted got lucky with a good dealer and is happy. My experience was different, I spent over a month trolling dealerships looking for my car...finally found a good dealer too. Problem...the dealer is almost 20 miles from my house, this means an hour in LA traffic.


The dealer I ended up buying my car from is within walking distance. I won't be using their service department though. 
My previous car was a Corvette Z06 and it was bought used. I didn't check carfax before I bought it (2002 with 4 previous owners). It had massive amounts of electrical problems,(fuel sending units, Active handling computer, several wiring harnesses, charge system faults, computer for the auto temp control, airbag sensors, and this was all in 3 months) and I was pretty sure, even though it had a clean carfax, that it was in an accident. The Chevy dealer here was great and they even got GM to fix a couple of large problems under customer satisfaction even though the car was out of warranty.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

darn I thought those 2 long ones would get us to 12.


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## NoBMWforME (Apr 12, 2005)

Fergyflyer:

That was almost exactly my experience at the dealer. Are you suggesting that this experience is not unique to the PONTIAC dealer? When I bought my previous car (BMW) the salesman knew his stuff. Knew all the options and what they did and what each option cost and why you would buy it. At the two "lesser" Pontiac dealers that I visited had no idea what the options would cost or even what they did or why you would want them.

We were very patient customers, weren't we.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

Jeez, I feel lucky. My pontiac dealer is about 3 miles from my house. They're a multi-brand dealership, Pontiac, GMC, Saab, Cadillac, Mazda, Hyundai. They have a nice showroom with the cars well displayed. A red GTO was displayed right up front next to a Cadillac XLR (75 grand, yeah right). Anyway, the sales guy was an older gentleman. pretty knowledgeable. He had no problem having the cars in the showroom shuffled to get the red GTO out for a test drive even though I told him I wanted a Gray car. The deal was negotiated in about 15 minutes at invoice. When I picked up the car, the salesperson spent about 1/2 hour going over the controls and features in detail. They also followed up with a phone call and a card after about a week. So far, I would rate them excellent. Might as well plug them. Rider Auto in State College, PA.

Amazingly, we bought a Yukon Denali in 02 for my wife. We are now a Pontiac / GMC family and both cars go to Rider for service. Never woulda thunk this. As for my criticism of GM, gotta admit after 2.5 years and 45K miles the Denali has been flawless.


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

A salesman can make all the difference. I negotiated a deal at one place -- and the clowns called me back the next morning and said they couldn't honor it! Got on the phone with another dealer -- and the guy was totally cool. In fact, he knocked another $700 off. 

BTW, I went to a Pittsburgh/Penn State game in Happy Valley back in the 70's. Second coldest I've ever been in my life. Rain, wind, ice, snow, slop, geez what a nightmare. Lions won.

The coldest, oddly enough, was in Grouchoville -- Bakersfield. Was at the Smoker's Meet at Famoso Dragway -- 33 degrees, 90% humidity and a steady 20 mph wind. Blah. None of the nitro cars could hook up.


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## PWR_SHIFT (Feb 10, 2005)

Groucho said:


> Now you're getting it! It's all a mind-game. I have decided-- _correctly_-- that my car is _not_ a domestic car and is thus perfect in every conceivable way.


Your parallel universe approach is quite amuzing Groucho ... keep it up.

You know, if you turn the red wedge hung out front of the dealership building upside down and squint real hard it might start looking like an "A" . . . Hey man, you've got yourself an Audi. Congrats!!! :lol:


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## Tom (Nov 1, 2004)

There is a thread in one of the porsche forums asking about new cars. he test drove and ruled out the G35, she test drove and ruled out the RX8, i suggested the GTO. she said no way will she even look at a pontiac to replace their recently wrecked 5 series.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

Tom said:


> There is a thread in one of the porsche forums asking about new cars. he test drove and ruled out the G35, she test drove and ruled out the RX8, i suggested the GTO. she said no way will she even look at a pontiac to replace their recently wrecked 5 series.


Ding Ding Ding!

Yet another perfect example of why the Pontiac branding was not bright...though depending on which 5 it was I may see their point. A Dinan 545i would be pretty fecking suh-wheet...


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## NoBMWforME (Apr 12, 2005)

While I can understand the viewpoint of the former BMW owner, once you ride in the Pontiac (Holden) the sell isn't so tough. So the problem then becomes, How do you get people that don't understand the new Pontiac's into these cars? (Although, I can see that it is a bit apples to oranges going from a four door 5 series to the GTO. For what it is worth I did it.) I was just lucky a friend had one and gave me a ride.

BTW, I have been looking for a big sticker in the shape of a flat bird to stick on the hood of my car. I haven't seen many of these around and I want my car to be unique. Is there anyone out there that knows where I can get one of these? Doesn't Groucho have one of these on the hood of his car?


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## Tom (Nov 1, 2004)

If you want the puking chicken I can look up the source in my smoke signals magazine or in hemmings. remember the puking bird comes in many colors with many types of puke. there is the normally aspirated "dragon puke" then there is the much more macho "turbo puke" from the uninspiring v8 turbos. Ohh soo sorry, not puke, but fire from the bird. 

should we order an engine turned aluminum (err plastic) dash for you to go with the bird?


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

What about the most popular of all-- the Disco Glitter Puking Chicken?

That looks _sooooooooo_ boss! All the foxy chicks will groove on it, dig?


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## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

Groucho said:


> What about the most popular of all-- the Disco Glitter Puking Chicken?
> 
> That looks _sooooooooo_ boss! All the foxy chicks will groove on it, dig?


What tha hell........ Groucho your hilarious!! :cheers


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## Braman'sGTO (Mar 14, 2005)

Ill take my Chicken baked or rotisery style, im not very picky


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

NoBMWforME said:


> Fergyflyer:
> 
> That was almost exactly my experience at the dealer. Are you suggesting that this experience is not unique to the PONTIAC dealer? When I bought my previous car (BMW) the salesman knew his stuff. Knew all the options and what they did and what each option cost and why you would buy it. At the two "lesser" Pontiac dealers that I visited had no idea what the options would cost or even what they did or why you would want them.
> 
> We were very patient customers, weren't we.


Second Pontiac salesman was able to get answers, first just didn't know how and didn't care due to lack of time on the job. I think the issue is PAY. At a domestic dealer you make less per car, and the managements' answer to increased sales is to flood the floor. The people there tend to be newer and less informed. As they get the experience they gravitate to the higher paying imports. 
The Honda salesman had been in the business for a while, he just was bad. I'm not quite sure what happened there.
The car was worth the wait.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Wing_Nut said:


> Jeez, I feel lucky. My pontiac dealer is about 3 miles from my house. They're a multi-brand dealership, Pontiac, GMC, Saab, Cadillac, Mazda, Hyundai. They have a nice showroom with the cars well displayed. A red GTO was displayed right up front next to a Cadillac XLR (75 grand, yeah right). Anyway, the sales guy was an older gentleman. pretty knowledgeable. He had no problem having the cars in the showroom shuffled to get the red GTO out for a test drive even though I told him I wanted a Gray car. The deal was negotiated in about 15 minutes at invoice. When I picked up the car, the salesperson spent about 1/2 hour going over the controls and features in detail. They also followed up with a phone call and a card after about a week. So far, I would rate them excellent. Might as well plug them. Rider Auto in State College, PA.
> 
> Amazingly, we bought a Yukon Denali in 02 for my wife. We are now a Pontiac / GMC family and both cars go to Rider for service. Never woulda thunk this. As for my criticism of GM, gotta admit after 2.5 years and 45K miles the Denali has been flawless.


JOE PA!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

NoBMWforME said:


> While I can understand the viewpoint of the former BMW owner, once you ride in the Pontiac (Holden) the sell isn't so tough. So the problem then becomes, How do you get people that don't understand the new Pontiac's into these cars? (Although, I can see that it is a bit apples to oranges going from a four door 5 series to the GTO. For what it is worth I did it.) I was just lucky a friend had one and gave me a ride.
> 
> BTW, I have been looking for a big sticker in the shape of a flat bird to stick on the hood of my car. I haven't seen many of these around and I want my car to be unique. Is there anyone out there that knows where I can get one of these? Doesn't Groucho have one of these on the hood of his car?


They need to advertise the car, and do it right. Not a Pontiac we build excitement, but something new and inovative, like the car. I'm not an advertising guru, but they just put the car out and do nothing to try to sell it, or to try and show what they have.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Braman'sGTO said:


> Ill take my Chicken baked or rotisery style, im not very picky


OK guys, we have a serious issue at hand and we need to concentrate here. Enough about the darn chicken. Come on 20 pages!!!!!!! arty:


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## BigDogsTX (Mar 24, 2005)

What US brand should GM have marketed the Monaro under? Buick? Chevy? GMC? As far as all of Pontiac's offering being crappy for the last 20 years, well that goes for most GM cars sold in the US during that time. It looked as if the GTO was to be the beginning of a great turnaround for GM automobiles but with the cancelation of the Zeta platform, I'm afraid the GTO may be a bright spot in a sea of Buick Lacrosse's and other FWD Camry wannabes.


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## fastball (Mar 20, 2005)

I waited long enough to post on this thread.....

O.K., here's the deal - I own a 2000 Honda Prelude. I bought it new in Decemer of 1999, I have 123,000 miles on it right now, and asside from the fact that I have just gotten bored of having to keep the engine over 4000 rpm to make it move (it does sound sweet, by the way, if any of you have ever heard a _real_ Honda motor engage into VTEC - and no, I am not a "ricer".... those idiots with tin can exhausts and suitcase handle spoilers drive me nuts), I have no real reason to buy a new car. The car rides, handles, and runs like the day I bought it. I've only replaced the tires, brakes, and belts. No leaks, shakes, rattles, rust, cracked plastic, poor door alignment, and all the accessories (A/C, cruise, etc.) still work like the day I bought it.

Everything I mentioned in the last paragraph was the reason I bought a Honda in the first place. Prior to this car, I owned a 1990 Chevy Beretta GT. When I bought it in 1997 with 54,000 miles, it was in pretty good shape. When I sold it in 2000 at 96,000 miles, it was a pile of junk. Leaked, rattled, paint peeled, and green steam would eminate from the defroster vent if the humidity and temperature were right. Not to mention, the seatbelts broke and I had to pull hairs at GM customer service head quarters to get a dealer - any dealer - to repair them at no cost (after continually citing the obvious safety hazzards of bad seat belts, they eventually did cover the repairs). This car left a terribly bad taste in my mouth for GM, and American vehicles in general. 

I was originally reluctant to buy anything not made in Detroit (typical "red, white, and blue, would never buy anything but GM, all that stuff made in Japan is garbage and those cars aren't fast enough to get out of their own shadow" mentality). But after checking them out, I swore I'd buy one and never go back.

Fast forward to today, where GM has made some incredible changes I never thought they would. However, they are still a ways off in fixing the perception that turned me off in the first place. Mainly, they need to start building cars with consistant, near perfection EVERY time, EVERY car. I like the GTO, because it seems to be a well built vehicle, and every GTO I've looked at shows consistant assembly. What makes the likes of Honda and Toyota (you can't argue Lexus is the leader in refined production cars) take sales and profits away from GM and Ford is that the freakin $16,000 Civic is assembled as well as a $45,000 Acura RL. A Corolla is built to the same exacting tollerances as a Lexus LS430. Different cars, sure, but the same fit, and assembly. You look back over at Detroit, and it's almost comical how you can go into each car on the lot, no matter the name plate, and find differences in how they are put together. True, you should get what you pay for if you buy a $40,000 Cadillac STS over a $16,000 Cobalt. But that difference should be about the car itself, not how it's built. 

I believe if GM does not commit themselves for regular, affordable passenger car or family sedan, to be desiged to perform well, be affordable to maintain, and run like it should (not necessarily forever, but 250,000 shouldn't be much to ask), they will continue to loose money and market share. 

The only reason I am considering a Pontiac GTO is because I know it isn't assembled in the States. I've driven it and scrutinized the fit and finish enough to say that it's a worthy vehicle. It's built as well as my Prelude. 

Now if GM could only start building the rest of their cars the same way.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

To all you Pontiac hating scum out there......

How can you argue against a brand that includes the Aztec? Why wouldn't you be proud to have the same logo on your GTO that a halo car like the Aztek carries? This car is so sophisticated that the average person can't even comprehend what the designer intended. Think about it! Pearls before swine. This car answers questions consumers haven't even considered asking yet.

Does Japan or Europe offer anything that can compare to the beautiful and innovative Aztek? No! And I doubt they ever will. Pontiac is years ahead of the market.

The Aztek will do zero to sixty.
It will also do a 1/4 mile.
It has brakes.
It steers.
It draws stares from onlookers wherever it goes.
It is painted bright colors.
It is not foul smelling.
It can corner.
It has less unsprung weight.
It is rare. You won't see these cars on every streetcorner corner.

I know a BMW owner who replaced the Propeller on his 2005 M5 with a Pontiac arrow. 

I dare some nimrod to refute these facts!!!!


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## PWR_SHIFT (Feb 10, 2005)

Oh no, content-wise the posts are starting to repeat, I think we're losing steam. 

Come on all you - GTO devotes, Pontiac haters, Bimmer-lovers-don't care if the motor seizes at 80K miles or all the electricals need replacement, GM-die-hards-don't care if my rattly/bouncing Camaro dashboard obscures my forward view over bumps as long as it still clears the quarter in under 13 secs, and the general All-American-stuff-is-crap cry-babies - we need someone or something creative to re-spark the controversy here, that is if we hope to get this thread to twenty pages. Come on, grab a suitable beverage and put all your categorical, image-conscious, most critical hats on . . .


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## GTOfreak (Apr 5, 2005)

BigDogsTX said:


> What US brand should GM have marketed the Monaro under? Buick? Chevy? GMC? As far as all of Pontiac's offering being crappy for the last 20 years, well that goes for most GM cars sold in the US during that time. It looked as if the GTO was to be the beginning of a great turnaround for GM automobiles but with the cancelation of the Zeta platform, I'm afraid the GTO may be a bright spot in a sea of Buick Lacrosse's and other FWD Camry wannabes.



How bout Monaro?! God forbid they try and build a brand that already has a great reputation overseas. Hell, they did it with Saab and Hummer, Chrysler is now aligned with Mercedes, why not?


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## Tom (Nov 1, 2004)

OK, im gonna reply to that honda lover fastball.
I had a legend coupe, the fit and finish was superb. the few dealer experiences i had were excellend. i sold the car to a co worker and it now has about 140k trouble free miles on it. 

Yes the build quality is consistent between honda products. my friend had a civic CRX Si and he replaced that in 98 with a civic with the funky automatic. he is looking for a new car. i suggested an accord coupe or TSX. he said he doesnt want another honda. ready for the reason.

here goes

the window regulators on the passenger side of both cars went bad, and he had to pay about 200 each time to fix it. "something about the window regulator going bad turned me off" he said. i thought about that as i tried to locate where the first squeak in the dash of my 93 Z28 was coming from when it had 39k miles. in fairness, the Z28 should have squeaked with the super stiff suspension it had in it. but still.

Window regulators - two in twenty years. HA!


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## fastball (Mar 20, 2005)

Tom said:


> OK, im gonna reply to that honda lover fastball.
> I had a legend coupe, the fit and finish was superb. the few dealer experiences i had were excellend. i sold the car to a co worker and it now has about 140k trouble free miles on it.
> 
> Yes the build quality is consistent between honda products. my friend had a civic CRX Si and he replaced that in 98 with a civic with the funky automatic. he is looking for a new car. i suggested an accord coupe or TSX. he said he doesnt want another honda. ready for the reason.
> ...


That's pretty extreme..... a bit petty if you ask me.

Car break, we all know they all do. I think the question of acceptable failure lies in how long it takes to break, and how often.


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## NoBMWforME (Apr 12, 2005)

The recent post by Tom and then Fastball made me think....How come nobody asks why Pontiac's suck? Why the brand has negative equity? I think it is because all of us know why. Issues beyond the lack of design or style. Or, I guess even more directly, Mr. NoBMWforMe, you're so smart, tell us why Pontiac's suck. My answer is......

1. Makes me think of Trans Am's and Farrah Fawcett. I know you have all heard this and it seems irrelevant because it was such a long time ago, but what it makes me think of is that is about the last time when I actually liked the cars Pontiac has produced. Also it has been pointed out that it was a different time in my life, high school and cars were less attainable for me and I idolized what I did not have. Since then, I look at the car and it now seems silly. That's Pontiac.

2. It is a GM product. I swore after my last GM product...NEVER AGAIN. It was a 1997 Tahoe, fully loaded without 4wd. The problems I encountered:

1. The "barn doors" on the back never lined up because the car was never torsionally straight. They closed, but they never really worked properly. This was always something odd to me and I just lived with the associated squeaks and rattles. Build quality.

2. Within the first year, bad battery, bad starter and bad altenator. All replaced under warranty. Who knows what was really bad, the dealer just replaced them all...over a period of about two weeks.

3. Aligning the Front End. I could not align the front end initially because the range of the adjustments was outside design limits and the frame needed to be punched out to allow for the front end to be aligned. This is a design/engineering error that I had to pay for. Irritating. It was like they never planned to have it aligned.

4. I learned that the coolant was corrosive requiring the replacement of expensive gaskets/seals in the engine/cooling system or leaks would get progressively worse.

5. The final straw, Tahoe, full of my family and newborn son driving through the California Desert in the summer when the transmission goes POP! leaving me with only 1st and 3rd gear plus no reverse. I was lucky to get to our destination. It was the fourth of July weekend in 2003 and on the Fourth of July I went to the Toyota dealer and bought a Toyota minivan and took a bath on the Tahoe. I could have tried to have it fixed, but I was 300 miles from home and did not want to try to have this done by correspondence and rental cars. I swore then, I would NEVER again by a GM product.


And then along came the GTO.......


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Tom said:


> OK, im gonna reply to that honda lover fastball.
> I had a legend coupe, the fit and finish was superb. the few dealer experiences i had were excellend. i sold the car to a co worker and it now has about 140k trouble free miles on it.
> 
> Yes the build quality is consistent between honda products. my friend had a civic CRX Si and he replaced that in 98 with a civic with the funky automatic. he is looking for a new car. i suggested an accord coupe or TSX. he said he doesnt want another honda. ready for the reason.
> ...


Actually, if the car is a 98 it is only 7 years old and yes 2 window regulators is excessive. I work with a guy that has had 4 window regulators on his 97 Accord with 120k. Another friend did two on his 94 Accord in about a 100k. A salesman that calls on me has an 01' TL with 80k at 61k his transmission went. That was a $3000 repair. The sunroof started leaking on my friends 97 Accord at 41k. The dealer told him that it was $375 to fix or he could put a wind deflector on and that would probably fix it for 99. Japanese cars do break. Less than American cars, but they do, and when they break it is lots more money to fix them.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

NoBMWforME said:


> The recent post by Tom and then Fastball made me think....How come nobody asks why Pontiac's suck? Why the brand has negative equity? I think it is because all of us know why. Issues beyond the lack of design or style. Or, I guess even more directly, Mr. NoBMWforMe, you're so smart, tell us why Pontiac's suck. My answer is......
> 
> 1. Makes me think of Trans Am's and Farrah Fawcett. I know you have all heard this and it seems irrelevant because it was such a long time ago, but what it makes me think of is that is about the last time when I actually liked the cars Pontiac has produced. Also it has been pointed out that it was a different time in my life, high school and cars were less attainable for me and I idolized what I did not have. Since then, I look at the car and it now seems silly. That's Pontiac.
> 
> ...


If I were a betting man I'd wager a months' salary that you bought a vehicle that had been in a train wreck, or fel off the car carrier or some other tragic event happened to it. 
I work in the construction industry and talk to a lot of people with trucks. The only bad thing I have heard about was the guys that didn't change trans fluid at 15k increments have ahd transmission failures. I know it says you don't need to change it till 100k but that is what I have heard. 
Your doors not closing right and the front end needing alignment plus not being able to be aligned and being out of the range of adjustments, frame damage. If you bought that one new then shame on GM or the dealer that sold it to you, if it was used well......
Coolant problems came from people not using Dexcool in the system.
Electrical problems sound like a bad ground or grounds. Another possibility is a spike in the electrical system caused failures. These could have been caused by an accident also. 
Heck the transmision could be from an accident, or the problem that caused the barn doors not align could have caused the drivetrain to not be in alignment. That would cause stress on the transmission and premature transmission failure.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

GTOfreak said:


> How bout Monaro?! God forbid they try and build a brand that already has a great reputation overseas. Hell, they did it with Saab and Hummer, Chrysler is now aligned with Mercedes, why not?


Lets see, Saab sales in the toilet, and it's resale there too. Hummer was an AM General brand that GM bought. Chryslers reputation has been up and down and all around before it was bought by Mercedes. 
To sum it all up, most Americans do not know what a Holden is. They would see a brand come in under the GM flag and go, NOPE, it's not a real foriegn car just a pretend foriegn car. Then GM has the expense of setting up new dealers and trying to market an unknown car. Expensive to do and usually doesn't work. 
The right answer is so close. Market the car as a new Pontiac, the same way they market the Cadilac. 
By the way I saw an interesting statistic today. JD Power survey for LONGTERM reliability
1 Lexus
2 Buick
3 Infiniti
4 Lincoln
5 Cadilac
3 of the top 5 are domestic, and 2 are GM. This isn't initial, this is long term. Cadilac, Buick and Mercury make the top 5 in initial. 
The American branded cars have a bad rap on quality, and it seems no matter what they do to improve, no one will give them any respect. 
Toyota motors sludge up and fail, Honda's have power window problems, Acura's are getting a reputation from used car dealers as having bad automatic transmissions, VW, Mercedes, BMW and Audi have lots of electrical problems, Nissan v8's should really be labeled as diesels with how much oil they drink. But all the press talks about is any problem it can come up with with an American car. WHY?


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

Again, fergy misses the point.

Take a quick gander where _*Pontiac*_ is:


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Groucho said:


> Again, fergy misses the point.
> 
> Take a quick gander where _*Pontiac*_ is:


Again Groucho misses the point. The majority of the population of the US doesn't know what a Holden is. If you are going to educate them it will take money. If you are going to spend the money on educating them, and making them believe that Holden is not another Yugo, why not spend that money on Pontiac? Why kill another brand?
Also, why the bad rap for American brands? The majority are above the industry average. Lowly Chevrolet beats Audi, Mercedes, BMW, and a few that actually play in it's ballpark, like Nissan, Subaru and Mazda. 
Another thing, assuming you knew Pontiac would be so low Groucho, would it be ok to call the car a Buick?????


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

fergyflyer said:


> Another thing, assuming you knew Pontiac would be so low Groucho, would it be ok to call the car a Buick?????


Umm...errr...

_What?_ :confused


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Groucho said:


> Umm...errr...
> 
> _What?_ :confused


You are against calling the car a Pontiac. 
Well why not a Buick Grand National, or a Buick Gran Sport? Would either of those names work for you?
My thoughts are that you want something exclusive. Not a common Pontiac or Buick. 
Well we are back to the basics. The start of this post.
I say it is a Pontiac GTO.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

fergyflyer said:


> You are against calling the car a Pontiac.
> Well why not a Buick Grand National, or a Buick Gran Sport? Would either of those names work for you?


No. Those cars _sucked_. The Buick brand has taken over Cadillac's old mantle of the cars that old people buy before they move to Florida, spend my FICA tax money on Bingo, and die.



fergyflyer said:


> My thoughts are that you want something exclusive. Not a common Pontiac or Buick.


Woah! We're getting somewhere...



fergyflyer said:


> Well we are back to the basics. The start of this post.
> I say it is a Pontiac GTO.


D'oh! So close!






15 Pages! w00t!


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Groucho said:


> No. Those cars _sucked_. The Buick brand has taken over Cadillac's old mantle of the cars that old people buy before they move to Florida, spend my FICA tax money on Bingo, and die.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

fergyflyer said:


> Groucho said:
> 
> 
> > No. Those cars _sucked_. The Buick brand has taken over Cadillac's old mantle of the cars that old people buy before they move to Florida, spend my FICA tax money on Bingo, and die.
> ...


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Groucho said:


> Ding ding ding! _Zactly!_
> 
> With brand image, as in accounting, it is not _reality_ that is key so much as the _perception_ of reality.
> 
> ...



Just remember, the difference between a wife and a girlfriend is 45lbs.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

fergyflyer said:


> Just remember, the difference between a wife and a girlfriend is 45lbs.


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## Tom (Nov 1, 2004)

you guys took my window regulator story out of context. he was pissed because he changed two total on two cars over 20 years. heck i changed alternators every 60k on my 88.5 cutlass supreme, had the tranny done at 50k under warranty, water pump at 60k under warranty. my dads olds minivan had the intake gasket changed, battery, front hubs, rear air ride height compressor, alternator, seat plastic, sliding door trim, and i think a few more things done. he bought the car in march 01 and it has 60k on it.

my aurora, hell thats a whole book unto itself. 

look at who drives buicks, lincolns and caddys. QTIPS. who buys hondas? everyone from teens to QTIPS. half the buick owners dont hear the squeaks. my dad told me i was nuts when i told him his front end was bad. three months later it vibrated like crazy at 40 and at my insistence he took it in and one hub was replaced. three months later they did the other one. we dont have complaints with his car because it was fixed on the first trip each time.

my wife had two grand ams. one had the quad four which needed a top end rebuild at 60k, and her ex husband was a mechanic that maintained the car for her. 

I am 43, and as far as i am concerned GM has negative "goodwill".


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## PWR_SHIFT (Feb 10, 2005)

Groucho said:


> Ding ding ding! _Zactly!_
> 
> With brand image, as in accounting, it is not _reality_ that is key so much as the _perception_ of reality.
> 
> ...


Now you've gone too far, the GTO might be 3800 lbs but . . . And here I though you actually fell in love and married it. 

Brand equity as a reason for no sales? Hmm, what is Ford's brand equity, still? How bad was Chrysler's just five years ago? Cadillac's? Errrrrr . . .wrong, take another stab; this time behind door #3?

Hmm, come to think of it, this whole thread is off base, because the biggest gripe I heard by those who wouldn't consider buying one wasn't that the car is overpriced, or slow, or built poorly, but that it was ugly . . . people are so shallow. Sure it's not a beauty queen (until you have one in your garage), it's a somewhat plain-looking indian girl, a bit hefty, but with a heart of gold, that also really cooks.


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## DaveGesp (Oct 8, 2004)

Groucho said:


> Again, fergy misses the point.
> 
> Take a quick gander where _*Pontiac*_ is:



Holden didn't even make the list! I'm sure I have Pontiac badges on my goat! :lol:


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

OK.

Let's look at a what if scenario:

_2002, Detroit-_ Bob Lutz convinces the GM board that Saturn's brand image of friendly, plastic-bodied grocery-getters is not exactly condusive to kick-butt sales. Saturn needs a higher-end performance coupe, it is decided. Turning to GM's Holden division in Australia, he has the factory in Port Elizabeth take their Monaro CV8 manufacture left-hand drive versions, stick a slighly different nose fascia on the front, and slap the Ringed Planet badge on various places. The car is introduced as the 2004 Saturn Europa.

How many of you Followers of the Red Wedgie would have given the car so much as a second glance? If you did give a look, kicked the tires, and drove it, would you buy it? Would you be able to look past the the idiotic branding descision made by GM to see the well-built high-performance car for what it was? What would your buds and aquaintences think when you tell them you bought a _Saturn_? Tiring of the comparison to past boring, poorly made Saturns, would you be eyeing ways to camoflage the disengenuous Saturn badging?

_Would you?_

Be honest.

I thought so. Well...to many, such as myself, the Pontiac name carries as much bad mojo as Saturn does.


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## NoBMWforME (Apr 12, 2005)

Groucho,

Sure I would buy it....I bought it as a Pontiac, what's the difference!!

Interesting article in Businessweek today. They list ten turning points for GM, Number 5 was the release of the Pontiac Aztek. GO PONTIAC!


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## FoMoGo (Apr 22, 2005)

Groucho said:


> What would your buds and aquaintences think when you tell them you bought a _Saturn_? Tiring of the comparison to past boring, poorly made Saturns, would you be eyeing ways to camoflage the disengenuous Saturn badging?
> 
> _Would you?_
> 
> Be honest.


I buy cars for me... and me alone.
I built pintos for their weight, I have built gremlins, vegas, ect.

If the car does what I want it to do, I can give a rats a$$ what people think about it.
I am not my car... But the car CAN be an extension of me.
We all know the quality of this car... I would still look into getting one if it was sold under the yugo name.

It will make me happy... screw everyone else... 


Jim


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

FoMoGo said:


> I buy cars for me... and me alone.
> I built pintos for their weight, I have built gremlins, vegas, ect.
> 
> If the car does what I want it to do, I can give a rats a$$ what people think about it.
> ...


I agree with you, problem is this car also appeals to the yuppie type that only cares what friends think about it.


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## PWR_SHIFT (Feb 10, 2005)

Groucho said:


> OK.
> 
> Let's look at a what if scenario:
> 
> ...


Sure I would. I'd even buy the Saturn Sky over the Pontiac Solstice, because, in the pics at least, the Saturn actually looks somewhat classier.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

fergyflyer said:


> I agree with you, problem is this car also appeals to the yuppie type that only cares what friends think about it.


Ah, yes, but it also obviously also appeals to mulletheads who think the the acme of sophistication is drinking Michelob from a can.


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## FoMoGo (Apr 22, 2005)

Groucho said:


> Ah, yes, but it also obviously also appeals to mulletheads who think the the acme of sophistication is drinking Michelob from a can.


I prefer Arrogant Bastard Ale poured from the bottle... into my chilled stein 


Jim


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

FoMoGo said:


> I prefer Arrogant Bastard Ale poured from the bottle... into my chilled stein
> 
> 
> Jim



oooOOOOooo!

That's good stuff!


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## sboylan (Nov 14, 2004)

I have conserved myself from chimining in on this thread but after much patience I have only one conceivable thought...this car is a fuuuuucking Pontiac, can we please close this thread already?


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

sboylan said:


> I have conserved myself from chimining in on this thread but after much patience I have only one conceivable thought...this car is a fuuuuucking Pontiac, can we please close this thread already?


No. Not until we hit at least 20 pages.







Oh...and it's a Holden.


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## Troy Roberts (Jul 30, 2004)

Time to close this thread.


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