# To rebuild or not to rebuild?



## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Hi all,

Recently found out the passenger side head gasket on my 69 400 is going... stopped at a rebuilder yesterday to find out what the deal would be. They tell me $4,500 plus tax and shipping of parts to them from suppliers - that means $5,000 plus!! Not the ideal situation and way more than I planned to spend. Yes, there was some mild upgrading included in this rebuild (i.e better cam and forged pistons) which I'm not overly in favor of. I am not experiencing any issues with exception of the oily water coming from the exhaust like bring oil or water in the oil - no, I've not done a compression test yet but I will to confirm.

After chatting with the owner of the rebuild company, Geller Engineering (yes THAT Geller Engineering), he suggested taking both heads off and letting them inspect them to see IF the NEED anything... valves, guides, springs etc. A full head rebuild would be $600-1,000 (springs, valves, freeze plugs, guides, cleaned, decked etc etc). He said there would be a benefit to an upper end refresh.

Since I don't have any other issues and replacing a head gasket is not that invasive I have a couple questions:

Keep in mind I am not an engine building expert.

1. Should I do both head gaskets?
2. Is there a recommended head gasket kit I should use?
3. While I have the head(s) off is it worth having them looked at (boiled cleaned etc)?
4. While I have the head(s) off - if I have them rebuilt will it affect anything else (you know like a cascading affect, heads/valves are nice and tight so something else will fail.)
5. If I do the heads should I do anything else "while I have it open" (besides inspecting the lifters and push rods etc)?

Thanks in advance for any advice/help, Dan


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## the65gto (Oct 9, 2008)

Its entirely up to you. Do you feel comfortable in removing/installing the heads yourself? If you do, then you can can save some labor costs. For me just doing the heads usually turns out to be a cascading effort, maybe not. 

In my younger years, a bought a 63 389 Catalina from a "little ole lady". The engine had a lifter tic and one weekend, pulled the valve cover, it was full of jello type junk, other side the same. Pulled both heads, took them to a car wash and pressure hosed them off. Brought them home and took out valves, cleaned the stems and seats, had to use solvent and air pressure to clean the push rods. Pulled the pan, same jello gunk, cleaned the oil pump and reassembled. (cheap oil, or extra long between oil changes) Drove it for 2 more years without engine issues. Had no experience at that time, but had some afterwards. 

The short route would be to replace just the one gasket assuming that there are no cracks/warps etc, 2nd option, let the builder do both heads, 3rd option, re-do the engine.


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## 67Twistytee (Feb 24, 2014)

Per 65's comment, it depends how much assembly work you're comfortable doing on your own. My experience, especially if you machine or port the heads, you're likely in for a cascading effect. And $5k probably won't buy you the entire job if you go down the road of a full rebuild. He's probably right about the benefits of rebuilding the heads, but then you'll want to deck the block, check the align bore, re-drill oil galleys, machine the crank, balance the assembly, etc., etc., etc. It starts to add up quick.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

My experience is when you put a new top end on an old bottom end it goes and then you are paying twice, more if you blow a rod through the block.
Doing one head is even worse you need to use a set of head gaskets so they match and so should the head work.
I would pull both of them and chances are you won't be able to pull the lifters out the top to inspect them so out comes the cam.
Judging by the way your water neck was rotted I would just bite the bullet and have the engine rebuilt.
To me doing just the top end is being pennywise and pound foolish.
When you get the heads off and see the inside of the engine you will know what you have to do.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Dan, you already know what the answer is. This is simply a case of Schrodinger's Pontiac (after his cat died):

"A _Pontiac engine_ as being enclosed in an engine bay having a potential break-down or future engine failure which will only be realized when the source (unpredictably) let's go on a road trip. The Pontiac engine at rest is considered (according to quantum mechanics) to be simultaneously both good and bad (imagined or real) until you take the road trip wherein it breaks down and the hood is opened, the engine observed, and the imagined failure becomes real."

You could do just a head gasket, close the hood, and imagine all is well OR do just a head gasket and worry every mile when you hear some "sound" or "feel that stumble" or "smell that smell" or "don't want to open it up" because you don't know what the rest of the engine is like inside.

I hate that you are having all these situations, but fixing the symptoms is not fixing the problems. If it were me, I would pull the engine and have it disassembled, parts inspection, and go from there -you may be able to re-use a few things to save money. If your luck is like mine :banghead:, you will do the head gasket and invest time & money only to have something else in the engine let go and have to redo what you did in order to fix whatever else might let go unexpectedly on you.

If you need to purchase parts, Summit & Jegs usually offer free shipping over $100 orders. I take advantage of this deal as much as I can because shipping of other parts from other sources are a real killer that adds up quickly. This keeps costs down a bit. Keep in mind the Butler stroker kit is one of your best bets in saving costs if you go new internals on the short block.

:thumbsup:


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

:smilielol:
This is my first Pontiac and even with the rebuilt engine I have hooked up the idiot lights so I don't drive it into the mountain watching the gauges.
I have also upgraded my AAA to unlimited tow miles so I don't have to have my Ford with a trailer following me as a support vehicle.
:leaving:


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Not what I was wanting to hear but... thanks for the replies, I appreciate it.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

All joking aside Dan it will cost some money but in the end you will have a great running pump gas friendly reliable car that will be fun to drive and you won't have to worry about it crapping out and leaving you stranded every time you take it out.
I sold half my pinball collection to buy my goat and the other half to finish the restore but in the end it was worth it.
Ain't it Purdy?
Runs really good now that the bugs are out of it, trying to keep my foot out of it until it is broken in and it ain't easy.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Is it actually using antifreeze? Is it getting in to the oil?? You might be able to borrow a coolant pressure tester to use on the radiator pressurize the system, pull the plugs on that side and if the pressure drops a lot have someone crank it over while checking if any coolant is shooting out one of the plug holes just to be sure.


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Thanks GoatRoper it sure do look purdy!! One day I will have the same...

Rukee, yes it is "using" antifreeze although I don't know much. I need to confirm it but I am wondering what else would pump out almost a cup of water out one side of the exhaust after sitting for a while - rusty water. Also in the colder weather the passenger side has "smoke" coming out while the driver side has none - even after being warmed up. 

There is also a "miss" on the passenger side which I'll video next time I run it. There is also a loud "ticking" sound on the passenger side when the engine is running at higher RPMs - thought it was an exhaust leak but it is not. I'll need to confirm after this latest freeze leaves... it's near single digits here today and I don't pull her out in this weather...

Thanks all, Dan


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I wouldn't delay too long, if you can avoid it. If it's getting water into the upper cylinder like it sounds like it is, and you let it sit, it's going to rust. If that get's bad enough you'll be looking at a re-bore and those new pistons will no longer be something you get to decide about.
Just a thought -- although I'm sorry it's not a pleasant one.

Bear


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

BearGFR said:


> I wouldn't delay too long, if you can avoid it. If it's getting water into the upper cylinder like it sounds like it is, and you let it sit, it's going to rust. If that get's bad enough you'll be looking at a re-bore and those new pistons will no longer be something you get to decide about.
> Just a thought -- although I'm sorry it's not a pleasant one.
> 
> Bear


Yea, In know... I've been running it regularly so I can try to keep it "clean" and keep the piston(s) from ceasing until I can get to it.

Thanks... Dan


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

dan woodland said:


> Yea, In know... I've been running it regularly so I can try to keep it "clean" and keep the piston(s) from ceasing until I can get to it.


Liquid doesn't compress and if antifreeze is getting in the bore and you fire it up you can toss a rod possibly destroying the block and the crank.
I would do as Rukee suggested, pull the plugs and pump the system up to 15-20 lbs and find out where the antifreeze is going.


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Goat Roper said:


> Liquid doesn't compress and if antifreeze is getting in the bore and you fire it up you can toss a rod possibly destroying the block and the crank.
> I would do as Rukee suggested, pull the plugs and pump the system up to 15-20 lbs and find out where the antifreeze is going.


Good point... thanks for the advice. I will do that as soon as I can.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

I would hate to see you do any more damage, it will be costly enough without having to replace the block.
Do you know how many miles are on your engine?


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

You and me both... odometer reads 67K. I know a long time friend of the PO who told me it was legit at 66K when I bought it. I was hoping THIS work/need wouldn't come for some time yet. I knew it would be inevitable but not this soon after owning it.



Goat Roper said:


> I would hate to see you do any more damage, it will be costly enough without having to replace the block.
> Do you know how many miles are on your engine?


Obviously won't know what's going on until it's opened but regardless the rebuilder is suggesting a RAM Air IV blueprint cam (with all parts blue printed), forged pistons, all new springs, seals, valves, polished cam unless replacement is needed, special valve guides etc. He claims and I've heard true tales of their work, after finished it would be a monster and not need work for a long long time.

Qs...
WHEN I do this do I go with a mild upgrade like that, or it's not needed, will it cause any cascading changes like trans stall converter or gear needs? 

I'm not planning to go crazy as I'm a "stock" guy. Being a stock guy is that even possible these days and would not upgrading slightly put me back in the same situation in a few years? I ask this because as soon as you have to bore the block it's no longer "stock".


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Take a good look at the odometer, are all the numbers in a straight line?
If any of them are offset it has probably rolled over.
I was told my car only had 58K but once I started on the suspension it was obvious it was 158K and it had rolled over.
I just inspected the trans and replaced seals and filter the torque converter had already been replaced, replaced U joints and changed the fluid in the rear end.
Basically if it wasn't broke or worn out I didn't fix it.
I would just inspect everything while the engine is out and when it is back in drive it.
If the torque converter is old you may want to replace it with the proper stall especially if the fluid isn't really clean.


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Goat Roper said:


> Take a good look at the odometer, are all the numbers in a straight line?
> If any of them are offset it has probably rolled over.
> I was told my car only had 58K but once I started on the suspension it was obvious it was 158K and it had rolled over.
> I just inspected the trans and replaced seals and filter the torque converter had already been replaced, replaced U joints and changed the fluid in the rear end.
> ...


These look straight to me... this is right after I removed the dash. What do you think?



I did the same thing as you, I've already rebuilt the transmission, rear and front end. I was told by the trans shop the old bits seemed original... The front end had all the original line-inspection paint on it.

I do know the water pump, carb and pump to fuel line were from a 68/69 Firebird sooo it's not ALL original. Also the rear end is from a 69 GP, who knows maybe the speedo is not original either. I started out told/thinking it was 99% original but now I have no clue.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

I was told the same thing but I have found stuff on the car like the clips that hold the hood pad on were used in '66 and they changed them in '67 so I think my hood may be off of a '66.
Who knows on the speedo if it is original or not but the numbers are straight, on mine the first digit sits a little higher so that is a clue that it had rolled over.
I don't know if my HO manifolds are original, it isn't listed on the build sheet but they are from '67.
You would think if they were factory the loom would have been HO routed but like you say I have no clue.


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Goat Roper said:


> I was told the same thing but I have found stuff on the car like the clips that hold the hood pad on were used in '66 and they changed them in '67 so I think my hood may be off of a '66.
> Who knows on the speedo if it is original or not but the numbers are straight, on mine the first digit sits a little higher so that is a clue that it had rolled over.
> I don't know if my HO manifolds are original, it isn't listed on the build sheet but they are from '67.
> You would think if they were factory the loom would have been HO routed but like you say I have no clue.


Yea, me too! I shouldn't be surprised. This is my third project like this where nothing was as I was told... As Pontiac Jim said, get it fixed so I don't have to worry about later.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

That's all you can do at this point unless you want to part it or sell it as a project.
Once you go through it and it is done and reliable it will be well worth it, hell it's a short ride anyway so you might as well take it in a GTO.


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Short and fassst ride. :cheers:



Goat Roper said:


> That's all you can do at this point unless you want to part it or sell it as a project.
> Once you go through it and it is done and reliable it will be well worth it, hell it's a short ride anyway so you might as well take it in a GTO.


I just don't like getting caught with my engine down if you know what I mean... 

Torque converter was replaced with the transmission rebuild so it's new but I'll have to verify the stall speed and go from there... I have just over half the dough pulled together. Need to sell a few more quarts of blood and what not.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

dan woodland said:


> You and me both... odometer reads 67K. I know a long time friend of the PO who told me it was legit at 66K when I bought it. I was hoping THIS work/need wouldn't come for some time yet. I knew it would be inevitable but not this soon after owning it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You would probably be much happier with the "068" cam if your are a "stock" guy. The "041" RA IV cam will be a bit aggressive and is better suited for higher RPM operation. You want a driver or a racer?


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

PontiacJim said:


> You would probably be much happier with the "068" cam if your are a "stock" guy. The "041" RA IV cam will be a bit aggressive and is better suited for higher RPM operation. You want a driver or a racer?


A Driver I can "use" hard at times. I'm not afraid of a mild upgrade as long as it is drivable when not being utilized - at higher RPMs. I've seen some guys will cams so big they can't get them to idle and when coasting the car leaps forward with every rotation. That I don't want.

Other than forged pistons he didn't suggest anything more for a performance upgrade.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

"Other than forged pistons he didn't suggest anything more for a performance upgrade".

Replace stock connecting rods with a forged set.
Magnum 1.5 Roller Rockers w/ Polylocks.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Read this entire article on Pontiac camshafts: Building a Strong Street Machine – Part 5: Pontiac Camshafts | Dallas Area Pontiac Association


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Goat Roper said:


> "Other than forged pistons he didn't suggest anything more for a performance upgrade".
> 
> Replace stock connecting rods with a forged set.
> Magnum 1.5 Roller Rockers w/ Polylocks.





PontiacJim said:


> Read this entire article on Pontiac camshafts: Building a Strong Street Machine – Part 5: Pontiac Camshafts | Dallas Area Pontiac Association


Interesting read... choices choices too many choices. 

The Rhoads lifters are cool. I'm not looking to hit the track on a regular basis, it would be fun to make a run from time to time, so it sounds like I should look for a low end setup to maintain drivability on the streets.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

dan woodland said:


> Interesting read... choices choices too many choices.
> 
> The Rhoads lifters are cool. I'm not looking to hit the track on a regular basis, it would be fun to make a run from time to time, so it sounds like I should look for a low end setup to maintain drivability on the streets.


Correct. Once you begin to use a cam larger than the factory "068", you then lose some driveability with regards to a street enjoyable driver. Hey, you can throw a 320 duration .600" lift cam in the car with the right heads and some would be perfectly happy with its driveability on the street (like me), but it would be a definite street racer as opposed to "I'm going to take my car on a 200 mile trip out to a car show or buzz out somewhere on a weekend getaway." Watching you do all the work you are doing, I think you want a real driver you can enjoy, but still have enough power to smoke tires and let people know what a GTO is.

Once you begin to go bigger cam, you will indeed need a higher stall converter if nothing else. If you read the cam chart, you notice that as the cam profile gets more aggressive, it moves the power band up the RPM scale. So what does that mean? You also move your lower end torque up as well and you may not like that your engine doesn't really start pulling hard until you get your RPM's up over 2,500.

Additionally, yes, you want aftermarket forged rods in place of the factory cast rods. This is basically insurance and by the time you do the work in rebuilding the cast rods and add ARP rod bolts, it only cost a few bucks more to get a much better rod you won't have to worry about -not that Pontiac rods are bad, just forged rods is the more sensible choice. You will most likely have to re-balance the rotating assembly as well. I think it cost me $200 on my engine.

I would not buy a thing or commit to anything until the engine has been torn down for cleaning, magnafluxing, and inspection. :thumbsup:


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

PontiacJim said:


> Correct. Once you begin to use a cam larger than the factory "068", you then lose some driveability with regards to a street enjoyable driver. Hey, you can throw a 320 duration .600" lift cam in the car with the right heads and some would be perfectly happy with its driveability on the street (like me), but it would be a definite street racer as opposed to "I'm going to take my car on a 200 mile trip out to a car show or buzz out somewhere on a weekend getaway." Watching you do all the work you are doing, I think you want a real driver you can enjoy, but still have enough power to smoke tires and let people know what a GTO is.
> 
> Once you begin to go bigger cam, you will indeed need a higher stall converter if nothing else. If you read the cam chart, you notice that as the cam profile gets more aggressive, it moves the power band up the RPM scale. So what does that mean? You also move your lower end torque up as well and you may not like that your engine doesn't really start pulling hard until you get your RPM's up over 2,500.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the great information!

Agreed! I knew what he would say "I have to see it first" but I pressed him any way. I talked to the guy and he refused (wasn't able really) to give me exact details until he cleaned and opened the heart to see what he could see.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

dan woodland said:


> Thanks for all the great information!
> 
> Agreed! I knew what he would say "I have to see it first" but I pressed him any way. I talked to the guy and he refused (wasn't able really) to give me exact details until he cleaned and opened the heart to see what he could see.



A machine shop would be hard pressed to give you any prices for a complete rebuild without knowing what your engine looks like inside & out. However, they can give you prices on specific operations, ie hot tank heads/magnaflux/glass bead/ mill head surface/valve guides & installation/three angle valve job. What would be a variable is brand/type of valves, springs, retainers, & seals IF you replace them. He can check your springs, valves, & retainers to see if they can be re-used and save you some money. Most machine shops have standard prices they go by and typically should have a sheet or list of their services/prices available. These basic prices can change IF something is found requiring additional machining or rework.

So you definitely want to have the engine looked into, he should know everything it will need from a machining stand point, and then you/him can decide on choice/brand of replacement parts that will go back into the engine. IF you don't like his pricing, you can always pay him for what he did and take the engine elsewhere. :thumbsup:


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Exactly, he gave me a quote like you said and added a "replace everything" option (bored, pistons, heads rebuilt all new etc) to give me an idea with the understanding there is no way to tell until it's cracked open.

Now I just need to pull the power plant and drop it off.


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

One last question: pull the tranny and engine or just the power plant?

Any other tips or tricks would be greatly appreciated.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

The way I do it is pull the dist. then the tranny crossmember so I can use a long extension with a swivel socket to unbolt the tranny/bell housing and I leave it on the tranny jack remove radiator fan etc. then just pull the engine.
It will be tight and a PIA to put the package back in anyway so you may as well split it out the gate.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

x2 on just the engine -and pulling the distributor so your don't break it. I also pull the carb because you don't want to chance breaking it with the chain you will need to lift the engine with. 

If you pull the engine/trans as a unit, you really need 2 people and you will have to tip the eng/trans (with the trans tailshaft pointing down) at a fairly steep angle and slide everything forward as you are lifting the engine to clear the trans tunnel -and of course you will have trans fluid leaking/pouring all over once the driveshaft yoke pulls free unless you use a dummy input shaft to replace the driveshaft input (never used one, and I am sure if the EPA ever knew I let it pour on the ground they would have called in a Hazmat Team and made me pay for the dirt removal and purification of that dirt! LOL). I've done eng/trans, but just the engine would be an easier way. I know you just put the rebuilt trans in, so un-doing bolts should not be a problem. 

I don't normally pull the crossmember. I leave it in place to support the trans. You can also leave the driveshaft in and all your shift/cable linkage. You *DO* want to support the front of the trans so it does not nose down. A transmission jack is best if you own one or can borrow one. I use a floor jack with a piece of square 1/2" thick plywood on top and place it under the trans pan and lift just enough to get pressure on it to hold it up. The plywood will distribute the weight and not cave in your pan - at least it never did when I did it this way, but maybe I got lucky. Others on the Forum may have additional ideas or tips on that. I use sockets where I can and box wrenches on those tight areas.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

PontiacJim said:


> x2 on just the engine -and pulling the distributor so your don't break it. I also pull the carb because you don't want to chance breaking it with the chain you will need to lift the engine with.
> 
> If you pull the engine/trans as a unit, you really need 2 people and you will have to tip the eng/trans (with the trans tailshaft pointing down) at a fairly steep angle and slide everything forward as you are lifting the engine to clear the trans tunnel -and of course you will have trans fluid leaking/pouring all over once the driveshaft yoke pulls free unless you use a dummy input shaft to replace the driveshaft input (never used one, and I am sure if the EPA ever knew I let it pour on the ground they would have called in a Hazmat Team and made me pay for the dirt removal and purification of that dirt! LOL). I've done eng/trans, but just the engine would be an easier way. I know you just put the rebuilt trans in, so un-doing bolts should not be a problem.
> 
> I don't normally pull the crossmember. I leave it in place to support the trans. You can also leave the driveshaft in and all your shift/cable linkage. You *DO* want to support the front of the trans so it does not nose down. A transmission jack is best if you own one or can borrow one. I use a floor jack with a piece of square 1/2" thick plywood on top and place it under the trans pan and lift just enough to get pressure on it to hold it up. The plywood will distribute the weight and not cave in your pan - at least it never did when I did it this way, but maybe I got lucky. Others on the Forum may have additional ideas or tips on that. I use sockets where I can and box wrenches on those tight areas.


For sure pull the carb before hoisting the engine, you don't want to slap it with the chain.
I use air for disassembly so it is easier for me to drop the tranny cross member so I can access the tranny bolts with a long extension and buzz them out without fighting them with a wrench.
Of course this is a lot easier with a tranny jack since you don't need the cross member to support it.
Those pans are pretty stout so if you use a board across the front you would have to be doing things to cave it in.
We work on boats and have a pump to change oil on inboards so I slide a thin hose down into the tranny filler tube and suck the fluid out with that before I pull the driveshaft.
You will fight it with the tranny attached even if you pull the exhaust manifolds
and you will have to put the car up on stands to get the angle so you don't hit the tail shaft on the ground.
If you try to stuff it in with the tranny attached you will fight the manifolds and I want them on the engine when I drop it back in.
Just so much easier and faster to split them IMO.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

x3 on pulling them separately. In fact I always look askance at people who say they've done it otherwise in a Pontiac A-body car. My son and I thought we'd "be cool" and install the engine/trans together into the GTO when we were building it, because "hey it works on TV that way." We fought it for two solid hours, and that was with every bit of the front end sheet metal, including the radiator and core support, completely OFF the car. Nothing forward of the firewall except for the frame, suspension, and tires. No distributor, no carb, no headers, nada. We raised, lowered, finagled all we could and we always hit the same problem: it just wasn't possible to get the thing back far enough to allow the motor mounts to drop over the frame mounts. After two hours, we gave up and split them. Had them both installed 30 minutes later.

Bear


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Thanks guys!!! Much appreciated!!!

Another question: some mentioned pull the carb, should I use a carb plate or where do I install bolts in the block to lift it?

Thanks in advance, Dan


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

dan woodland said:


> Thanks guys!!! Much appreciated!!!
> 
> Another question: some mentioned pull the carb, should I use a carb plate or where do I install bolts in the block to lift it?
> 
> Thanks in advance, Dan


You should have an eye loop in the front on the passenger side and then use a grade 8 bolt in the back of the head on the driver's side.
I have a bar we made up that goes on the hoist so we don't have a V in the chain, it goes straight up and down on the lift points.
Once you get tension on the chain take a strap like a MC tiedown and run it from the hook on the hoist to the front of the engine on the driver's side.
This will keep the engine from twisting and trying to bind when you lift it.
When you go to reinstall do the same thing and use a level on the front or back of the engine to adjust the hang to level so it goes in easy and wants to set down on both mounts at the same time and it will go right in.
You can see the eye loop in this picture


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Oh and to remove the hood put thick pads between the hood and cowl and at least two guys one on each side and have your tools all set up.
3 guys is better, one on the front and one on each side.
Before you loosen the 4 bolts take a pick and scribe a line on the hood where the hinges go that way you will know where they go and you won't have to mess with aligning the hood when you put it back on.


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Excellent information! Thanks, MUCH appreciated!! I've used that same trick on other cars when removing the hood...


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

You should have one of these on the front of your engine https://www.yearone.com/Product/1967-81-firebird/tb30

I use it if it is there, but you want a hook at the end of your chain to use it. I then pull a rear intake bolt diagonal to the hook. Then get a slightly longer grade 8 bolt and a good washer and run the bolt/washer through the chain link and back into the intake bolt hole about the same amount as the bolt threads which came out. You don't want to bottom the bolt out and crack it.

The key is to typically have an equal length of chain from the hoist hook to each attachment. Should the engine seem to want to tilt more than you care it to in an unbalanced manner, you can set the engine back down, then move the hoist hook back or forward a few chain links in the direction of the heavy end.

You can also get fancy with an engine leveler. Check out this thread here:
Engine lift mounting points...?

Here is a YouTube video pulling an engine and 4-speed as a unit, but a 4-spedd is easier because its smaller. However, note that these guys simply bolted their chain where the intake bolts would normally go - and often how I pull my engines if you don't have the front Pontiac engine hook. You don't have to suffer though the whole video, just check out the chain attachment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfVH7z3_nsE

:thumbsup:


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

I like the contrast of the super clean 4 point lift and leveler to the last pic with the fluids on the ground and the chains bolted on git er done style.
I just have a pipe with a piece of steel plate welded to the top center I run a chain through and slide the chain for level, 2 point lift and a strap to hold it level from side to side.
I guess there are a lot of ways to do it, I would never use a manifold plate but to each their own.
I am super anal about fluids on the floor so I vac them all out and immediately wipe up any drips.
I would have pressure washed the engine in that last pic before I would even attempt to pull that greasy mess.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Goat Roper said:


> I like the contrast of the super clean 4 point lift and leveler to the last pic with the fluids on the ground and the chains bolted on git er done style.
> I just have a pipe with a piece of steel plate welded to the top center I run a chain through and slide the chain for level, 2 point lift and a strap to hold it level from side to side.
> I guess there are a lot of ways to do it, I would never use a manifold plate but to each their own.
> I am super anal about fluids on the floor so I vac them all out and immediately wipe up any drips.
> I would have pressure washed the engine in that last pic before I would even attempt to pull that greasy mess.



My engine changes have always been outside. I have used a tripod made up of round tubing chained together at the top to pull off of with a chain hoist, then I made a fixed outside frame out of wood 2 x 6's and 2 x 4's that I could pull the car under and lift the engine with a come-along, then roll the car backward to drop the engine. When I had money, I rented a hydraulic engine lift that assembled in pieces, but still had to roll the car as those small steel wheels don't roll in dirt. Now I work outside on a 12' x 12' cement slab. Have a hydraulic engine hoist that rolls on the cement, but not enough length in the slab, so I still have to roll the car back (or pull it with my come-along attached to the rear bumper of my S-10). Greasy & dirty? Ya, baby - the engine & me :thumbsup: Been doing it "old school" all these years and I don't see it changing. :lol:


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Hardcore, when I was younger I did them like that in the dirt with a chainfall and a 4X10 between two trees.
Too old for that now and I have a lot more tools now than I had back then.
I am spoiled now with a heated shop and a real parts washer at my disposal and it is great to blow off all that crap with a pressure washer outside.
Out here any cleaners that used to work have been banned, Gunk is nothing more than foam that smells like perfume and doesn't do anything.


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Thanks gents. 

I picked up a load leveler a couple years ago on sale and I bought a folding hydraulic engine hoist when I rebuilt the engine of a small pickup truck years ago. I bought a rolling work bench last summer (replacing a dilapidated unmovable wooden unit) so I could roll it aside and increase the "head room" in the garage for precisely this type of project.

I do have the front loop and that video reminded me about shear strength versus tension... 

We're entering the 60s here this week so project pull her out will be setup. I have to get it pulled before April 1st when I start a new job, I have no idea when I'd get to it after that...

Keep the ideas coming and the ones you've already shared are much appreciated! Dan


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Two more questions gents...

Remove the engine with the hoist from the side or front?

Leave sheet metal/bumper on the car?

Thanks in advance, Dan


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Front, pull the fan and the radiator loosen one bolt on the passenger side fender if you have A/C and use tie wire around it and the compressor and hang it on the fenderwell so you don't have to discharge the unit.
No need to remove the core support, bumper or anything else but the hood.
Place a couple of moving blankets on the roof, carry it straight back and set it on them forward enough so the hood latch doesn't hit the windshield.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Dan, you got alot of advice here on camshafts. You may have seen this already, but if not, here is the link. Its about what guys are actually running in the street driven 400's.Hope this is of some help.

What Is Your Favorite Daily Driver Performance Camshaft in a 400? - Page 3 - PY Online Forums


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Thanks guys.

I'm looking for a very reliable daily driver which I can take on the track 
(purely for fun) and not have to worry about much of anything. I'm not looking for a "big" build" but I won't mind some performance improvement either - not looking to replace/upgrade this because I replaced/upgraded that.

I have 3.23 gears in the rear and I don't know what the stall converter is but I assume it's stock (replaced it when I did the trans) but I'll ask the trans shop what they used. I plan to use the same heads and may upgrade the valve guides, cam and piston rods if needed. I'll know more when I open her up.


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Dyno/tune question:

After the rebuild should I have it run/broken in on a dyno or is it a waste of moola? Also, how much should a dyno/tune cost? I've done some research and it seems to be all over the board.

Thanks in advance, Dan


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Run it for 25 minutes @ 2,000 RPM with break in oil then shut it down and replace the oil and filter.
Drive it for 500 miles not pushing it too hard and change the oil again.
At that point you may want to do a dyno tune or just play with the timing and adjust once it is broken in.
I didn't bother with a dyno I just run it.


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Thanks Goat Roper... I'll make note of that. Dan


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

The stars finally aligned so I can pull the engine...

One last question: two chains or three? More control/steady with three or does it need to swing using two?

As always thanks in advance, Dan


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

OK, so I'm rebuilding the engine... pulled it last night.

Any other general recommendations or specific for that matter (not mentioned above)? I'm only doing this once so any help would be greatly appreciated.

I don't plan to "build it up" but I plan to make small improvements to take advantage of newer technology internally. Roller Cam, Forged pistons/rods etc...

Thanks in advance, Dan


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I'd recommend you get yourself a copy of the Jim Hand book if you can find one, also the more recent one by Rocky Rotella. Both have sections that address "building your short block" that contain some very good recommendations (and also things to not forget).

Two things in particular: Rear main seal and oil pan gasket. I recommend the one piece items for both of these.

https://www.bopengineering.com/beltdrive_acc_topend.shtml

Heads: Save yourself the opportunity for some grief later by going a-head (grin) and replacing the bottleneck rocker studs with the meatier 7/16's ones along with fully adjustable rockers (poly-locks on the factory rockers and balls, or aftermarket full roller rockers, like Scorpion). Depending on what your plans are for valve covers and which system you choose, you may need spacers under the factory covers to clear everything. I'm running 1" tall spacers under my factory covers, and even though I'm running roller rockers, poly-locks, and Jomar stud girdles they clear --- I painted the spacers engine color so even though the things are 1" tall, most folks overlook them :wink3:

Also, after you get the short block together and have the balancer installed, but before you put the heads on, verify that the TDC mark on the balancer is actually TDC. There are several different methods of doing this operation, using a degree wheel and a piston stop or dial indicator.
Once you think you've got it all ready to go back in, fill it with oil and let it hang rear end down from the hoist for a day (so that the rear of the crank is submerged in oil) to make sure it's sealed before you put it back into the car.

Those are just the things that come to my mind right now --- there are more tips in the books.

Bear


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## the65gto (Oct 9, 2008)

The BOP folks have some really nice stuff----although a bit expensive?


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Thanks guys! I plan to use a BOP seal for the rear main and I like the idea of double checking it by hanging it backwards!!


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

I'm just about ready to drop the heart back in the car. 

Do you guys mount the motor mount frame bracket to the frame first or leave it attached the the motor mount and move the motor (still on the lift) to get it lined up? I assume it's easier to align two bolts rather than six?

Thanks in advance for any help, Dan


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