# 1965 GTO Starter issue



## kanthonyk (Jan 18, 2016)

Hello all. New member here looking for answer. A little history first. My GTO was sitting for about 5 years. This past September i brought it back to life. New battery. I always have it on a trickle charger when not running. Finally got car started, i could run it for a while, no problem. recently, i would turn off and try to start again and dead key. Nothing. Not a slow crank or anything. I believe I may have a heat soak issue that i believe can be quite common with a car with headers, like mine. Yesterday i have a put in a new starter and positive battery cable. Same issue. Odd thing is it will not start at all, even when it cooled off like it has before. Car started right up after starter swap. Heat barely got to 180 Degrees. i let car sit for a few hours and she wont start, dead key.
Please help as I am stumped and do not believe it is a starter or battery. I will be replacing the ground cable from the battery, just because its old. I find it odd that it will not start now at all even when its cold. Thanks in advance


----------



## pjw1967 (Mar 10, 2014)

I am no expert so pls keep the flames to a minimum. Years ago when I was a nighttime tow truck driver, I would get a no start call for a GM product. The boss said to do this. Have the driver turn on the headlights, then turn the key to the Start position. Look to see if the headlights dimmed. If not, then turn the headlights off. Dangerous part coming next. With the car in Park or Neutral (usually an automatic so Park), grab a hammer, crawl under the car and locate the starter. Now have the driver turn the key and hold in the Start position. Whack the starter with the hammer. Boom. Car starts. 9 times out of 10. Explanation was that solenoid was hanging up. I would advise the driver to park the car in an accessible place when they got home, as it would likely happen again. Assuming the new starter is a rebuilt, maybe this is the problem. You will get a hint just from the headlights. Another trick is to have someone hold the key over in the Start position and wiggle the battery cables to see if you get any reaction. Sometimes they corrode internally and you can't see it. Or I have unfortunately wasted your time. Good luck.


----------



## kanthonyk (Jan 18, 2016)

No flames here. It is a new starter so i dont believe its stuck. 2 starters same problem. I suspect a wire is bad somewhere. Just need to find it


----------



## pjw1967 (Mar 10, 2014)

Try the headlight trick. No dimming means no current draw which means your wiring hunt should turn up the problem. BTW I replaced my '67 engine harness years ago with the Ram Air version as Ames said to use it if the car had headers. Mine has Hookers. The wire to the starter ran down the front of the engine, not the back. I also got a high torque mini starter and #2 battery cables. This solved the hot start problems. This part number for the '67 harness doesn't correspond to anything for 1965. For info only.
https://secure.amesperf.com/qilan/D...495&order_number_e=NDAxMzAyNQ==
&web_access=Y


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

BTDT many times with these cars. In my case it was never a starter problem. The problem was high resistance in the 'S' wire from the ignition switch to the solenoid. You can verify this by seeing if it cranks when you jump the S and B+ leads at the solenoid with a remote starter switch or a screwdriver. My bet is you have a bad S wire. Very, very common problem in these cars. You can replace the wire, or wire in a remote starter switch directly to the solenoid, leaving the original wires in place. That way, when it won't crank, just hit the back-up switch. Best solution is to replace the bad wire, though.


----------



## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

geeteeohguy said:


> BTDT many times with these cars. In my case it was never a starter problem. The problem was high resistance in the 'S' wire from the ignition switch to the solenoid. You can verify this by seeing if it cranks when you jump the S and B+ leads at the solenoid with a remote starter switch or a screwdriver. My bet is you have a bad S wire. Very, very common problem in these cars. You can replace the wire, or wire in a remote starter switch directly to the solenoid, leaving the original wires in place. That way, when it won't crank, just hit the back-up switch. Best solution is to replace the bad wire, though.


Yup the dreaded purple wire.
I also replaced my engine loom with the HO loom but I also had to change the wire from the ign switch to the new loom.
I still get the chucka chucka once in awhile but if you snap the key quickly to start it doesn't do it.


----------



## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

K...solid advice from the gang here. I am also familiar with the GM wiring of the era and the worst thing in the Pontiac was routing the starter wires through a metal tube inside the exhaust manifold!...a recipe for heat all the time. Not only that but the wiring really was insufficient for the amps drawn by the solenoid on top of the starter...about 50 amps.

Like the guys said, hot soak, purple starter wire etc, melts the insulation in that tube and it shorts out, with the car off just wiggle that starter cable that goes in the tube, it might move it off the short, try it a couple of times and then see if it works.

Real fix is what I just did with the stuff from MAD electronics, mounted a Ford Magnetic switch on the fender. Some call it a starter solenoid, but technically it is not. The you jumper the starter permanently, mad supplies the bus bar.

Then you reroute the battery cable wire as the only wire to the starter down the front past fuel pump along the oil pan. You put a bus bar on fire wall and near front headlights, with headlight relays as well. 

Now when you turn the key you won't believe the difference, fires as a brand new car, full amps to starter, no heat soak worries. I put halogen headlights in and a 12 si alternator 78 amps instead of 63. The dash lights are brighter, because the headlights don't draw the power through the dash harness, and the cable to the starter is only live when cranking....no other time. Nothing goes though the metal tube.

The inside dome light will burn your retinas out, all systems full power. At 550 RPMs at idle in drive with high beams on, radio, blower still charges at 14.6 amps.

By the way I had put in a brand new wiring harness two years ago from American auto wire. Top quality....but that heat tube had melted the insulation on the starter S wire...it will eventually.

Talk to Mark at MAD electronics, he ran an auto electric shop for years....if you drive it and want super starts, power, strong lights etc...even easier to change the starter, one big cable.....that can carry all those amps!:thumbsup:

Good luck!


----------



## pjw1967 (Mar 10, 2014)

If you hang around here long enough.....


----------



## kanthonyk (Jan 18, 2016)

Gentlemenn, thank you so very much. Due for a blizzard here in NJ this weekend so i can use that time to gather parts. I felt the "s" wire looked a bit suspect. I need to replace it its a great pkace to start. That tube where the starter cable runs was always a mystery to me. I may re route a few things.
Thanks again!!!


----------



## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

K...with the car off, move that wire up and down gently through the tube, if it is shorted on the tube and you move it off it may start...if not try a few times....if you use they MADE system the purple S wire is routed to the new Magnetic switch on the fender...not to the starter...there is more to it than that but you get the idea....if you stay with the S wire on starter you have to get it there somehow and extending it will add some small voltage drop, to an already weak design. But if you want it original you go down the tube!


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

My experience has been that the entire wire is bad, not just the tube portion. The one on my '67 was really bad about 1" from the ignition switch. Replacing the ENTIRE wire, and insulating the wire and the tube is the cure. Ford type solenoids on the fenders are a band-aid for a marginal system. These cars did not use them when new. These cars did not have this issue when new. Restore the circuit and it will work as it was designed to.


----------



## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

+1

If you are using a Ford part to make a Pontiac start you are doing something wrong bordering on blasphemy!
When I asked Dan my parts guy about it he gave me a length of 10 ga purple wire and said to replace it ALL.
Engine loom was pretty brittle, when I pulled the engine for a rebuild I replaced it with an HO loom from M&H and bought the tube that goes on the motor mount from Inline Tube.


----------



## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

I agree there are many ways to do it. i had restore my original factory harness with American Autowire Harness, AA bought the GM wire tooling before it went to China, as they said their loom was no different than if you bought it in 66 from a Pontiac dealer, same machines, design even the same goo on the fuse blocks. 

Will it work, yes it will it does, but that does not change that the system as original was lightly built for economy and ease of manufacturing. The main power distribution in the engine harness is a splice inside the wrapped wire loom, with a soldered connection, it is ok not great.

Your Stater S switch runs from that switch through the firewall under the master cylinder, under the dash through the neutral safety switch, thought the ignition switch. But the power for that switch comes through that splice in the harness. Lots of 12 gauge wire, and lots of chance for voltage drop. Which it does when heat enters and causes resistance.

The pull in solenoid needs 50 amps, when voltage drops in that long wire it hits right on the margin and won't be strong enough to pull on the solenoid.

With the commonly called ford solenoid, (Delco Remy techs called it a magnetic switch, it was used on many makes jeep, Mac, machinery, etc) the amps needed to close the contacts is .5 to 2.5 amps which then delivers full battery power for the pull in solenoid and cranking.)

On GM cars of the era the headlights were dim when perfect, so we're the tailights. Just the way it was. It is OK if you want it that way, but you can improve the strength of the electrical system overall with relays, larger wires 8 and 10 gauge for charging and power circuits and a magnetic switch as examples. They can be hidden as well.

But some guys want it original, that is ok too. But radial tires that look like bias ply originals will give one a much better ride. Cupholders were not original, nor were satellite radios or cassette players. So you can make it how you want.

But all of us know these are common issues, and we have all experienced that slow crank or weak crank at times, even with all systems in top shape..that is because they built that electrical system to be easy to make, economically and mostly reliable.....just like a bias ply tire.

The main thing is to do it how you prefer, according to how you like to drive it and love it.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Well put, Lemans Guy. When GM built these cars, they were expected to be in service for about 8 years, not 50+. While I'm a 'stock' type of guy, I'll be the first to agree that these systems can certainly be improved upon with new technology and better materials. Unlike the manufacturer, most owners today are concerned with longevity and an upgraded system for modern accessories. That said, for an un-modified car used to replicate how it was 'back in the day', a re-done system using quality, stock spec parts will get the job done, and will serve for many many years. We all do what works for us!


----------



## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Well said Geeteeohguy, I am in total agreement. No better car than this line we love in my view, and if one takes care, as you do, and keeps the wiring in top shape, alternator, battery as well, then you can get many years of reliable service.

Just a question, on that tube through the manifold for the starter wire, what type of insulation did you use? I heard it was cardboard originally but not sure. pAinless has some great classic wire loom that withstands temps to near 475 F.

I used that, but did not go through the tube again. We all gave K some things to consider, so he can do what he likes best.

One note on headlights only, if you don't want to go to the whole magilla like I did, relays for the headlights alone are easy and will really give you bright lights. They can be hidden easily up front, MAD has a kit for about $30 bucks or so your own. i put in Halogens which look just like originals, but with relays are really bright, it defeats all the voltage drop in the dash wiring.

Just make sure your alternator and belts are in top shape!:thumbsup:


----------



## kanthonyk (Jan 18, 2016)

Thanks Lemansguy and geeteeohguy. Great tips and great explanations. Knowing the why helps alot. So tue purple wire is 10 gauge? Can i use a thicker wire or would it not make a difference?


----------



## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

It is 10 or 12, use the same whatever it was unless you are wiring into a separate bus bar, that is when you can beef up the gauge and use fusible links. But if you are just rerouting and extending use the same gauge. 

Add as little extra as possible as more wire adds more resistance. But a small amount won't hurt, make sure you crimp and solder and seal the connectors. You can buy crimp, solder and seal connectors at NAPA, be specific and use a heat gun. It will melt the solder inside and seal by heat shrinking after you crimped it first.

If you go back through the tube some insulation to keep heat from burning it is a good idea.


----------



## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

I think it was 10 gauge from starter to the splice in the harness and then went to 12 gauge through the firewall....you would connect at the starter end to extend so match the wire there....


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Lemans Guy, the original heat sheathing was asbestos based. Really good stuff. I would think that any of the header/exhaust wrap now available would work just fine. Another thing, the guys with the Ram Air/HO exhaust manifolds use a different set-up, where the tube is bolted next to the motor mount on the driver's side, far away from the exhaust and all of its heat. I agree that the wiring running thru the tube between 5 and 7 cyls on the exhaust manifold is a less than optimum design! And relays for the headlamps, or convertible top, or any high load circuit, are an excellent idea and an added safety feature as well.


----------



## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Thanks Geeteeohguy, asbestos yes. Also much agree that the HO routing by mouton pretty mount is superior routing. In fact I routed my main and only sorter cable exactly there, along the oil pan secured with a clamp nod covered with painless wrap that protects up to 475 or so.

Anyway you do it that routing like HO will help with heck sokaiya nod high resistance!atriot:


----------



## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Boy that was bad typing...I meant motor mounts and hot wok! Sorrry


----------



## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Hot soak....sorry


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I thought I was reading Japanese.....pass the soy sauce, please!


----------



## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Typing is not a skill I have mastered! So I need to go slow......but I never do hence the crazy sounding text!

Oh well, as Toby Keith sings,.....

..."I am not as good as I once was, ....but I am as good once....as I ever was!".......


----------



## pony462 (Oct 29, 2015)

Kanthonyk, Had same problem with my '61 I wired in a ford type or Delco magnetic switch in series with the present solenoid no problems since.


----------



## kanthonyk (Jan 18, 2016)

found the issue, The S wire was melted to the header, lol. i moved it away and no issues since. I will be replacing it soon, Thanks guys!


----------



## cij911 (Oct 25, 2017)

Lemans guy said:


> K...solid advice from the gang here. I am also familiar with the GM wiring of the era and the worst thing in the Pontiac was routing the starter wires through a metal tube inside the exhaust manifold!...a recipe for heat all the time. Not only that but the wiring really was insufficient for the amps drawn by the solenoid on top of the starter...about 50 amps.
> 
> Like the guys said, hot soak, purple starter wire etc, melts the insulation in that tube and it shorts out, with the car off just wiggle that starter cable that goes in the tube, it might move it off the short, try it a couple of times and then see if it works.
> 
> ...


Would you please post a few pictures of your setup and wiring ? Thanks


----------



## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

*electrical issue starter*

sorry for the delayed reply Cj,..some photos below. Since that post I added a Robb MC gear reduction starter. I turned the solenoid down in the air stream works great. That is why you see a small wire from the ford mechanical switch also going to the starter, it prevents the gear reduction starter from spinning afetr shutdown and acting like a generator.

Hard to tell much from these pics, but suffice it to say I go for esae of service and access to wires and not looks or show stuff. I just want to have solid connections and ez access. i really recommend getting the MAD kit. You are paying for Mark Hamiltons years of knowledge and experience, and he will be a great help to you. His diagrams and instructions are clear and informative.

Maybe you are fixed by now anyway good luck!


----------

