# I need help & understanding on buying my GTO



## stewartlong (May 30, 2015)

I'm coming full circle back to wanting my dream 1965 GTO from having a '65 Pontiac Tempest all through college and into the service and now want to purchase a 1965 GTO TRI-POWER 389 360 HP convertible; Starlight Black or Nightwatch Blue; with white interior and white top and really need some advice on the markets and what's out there and what I remember as a teenager back in 1965.

Please be easy on me because I'm learning here and trying to catch up and remember from 50 years ago.

3 questions that I am trying to get straight in all of my study....


1.* Are matching numbers a must to have even though its 1965 and they didn't start putting VIN#'s on the block and transmission and that makes it a higher value than one that is not? (T/F)*

2. I'm finding a lot of PHS reports where the car amenities and accessories may be that but they've pulled the original engine and transmission and there's no documentation and therefore the PHS report is actually bogus.

*Is that true and how much does that effect the price on the car?*

Finally for today....

3. As I remember from the old days when these cars hit the ground for the first time in 1965 and we took them to the drags, the real important thing was that the frame be a LEMANS frame and not a TEMPEST frame when loading it up with a 389 360 HP and a 4-speed rather than 3-speed and a 336 because of the cross member supports and the heavier rails.

As I remember the lighter TEMPEST frames started to crack under stress at the drags. 

When looking and starting to talk with these GTO owners I've been requesting that the build sheet be from a LEMANS build sheet and not a TEMPEST build sheet from it original build back in 1965.

*Am I right on this in holding the line or am I just hatching this up after 50 years and Alzheimer's is setting in?*

My gut and memory keeps telling me I'm right but I'm just not sure.

Please be easy on me for the NEWBIE is coming back in country from a "long winters nap" can't remember.

Thanks for all your help. There will be more questions.
_Stew_


----------



## SANDU002 (Oct 13, 2004)

First off beware that what you are looking for is going to require deep pockets.

PHS will give you proof that it is a GTO, Lemans or Tempest. There were only a couple of plants that included 5N designation on the data tag on the firewall that it is a GTO.

Numbers matching does add value to the car.

Since you are looking for a convertible, I would not worry about the frame since convertibles have a cross support and you probably are not going to be doing any drag racing in a convertible.


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Also, keep in mind that a lot depends on your plans for the car. If you're looking at it to be some sort of investment and you care about resale value, then the closer it is to original (and 'numbers matching') is always the safest bet. If however your concerns are to have a car that you can enjoy, that you don't plan to sell, and that you plan to keep -- then none of that matters much.

Bear


----------



## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Welcome to the board, best of luck in your search. try and answer, best I can.

3) the boxed frame will be the same part whether under a 326 Tempest or a LeMans or GTO optioned LeMans convert. Similar deal with a '65 Tempest Sedan, same unboxed frame was used under a '65 GTO post or hardtop. In the very late '65 production run, frame braces became std on manual transmission equipped '65 GTO's. These braces tied the frame and upper crossmember together being attached inboard of the frame off the lower control arm bolt and then diagonally attaching to the same side upper control arm bolt on the front of the frame crossover. In parting early A body's, the only cracked upper crossmembers (pass side, upper shick mount area) I've ever ran across were on cars that had been raced hard at the track for many years, and did not have these braces. The early style "4spd" braces have always been tough to come up with, but Kirban had them reproduced near 30 years ago, and they are in most repro catalogues. The '68-72 style are different, and are highly recommended for performance '68-72's. 

2) there are a LOT of "restored" cars out there that are missing original options or have had options added. Many also have non numbers matching drivetrains. There is a whole spectrum of junk......to very high quality vehicles out there. As a buyer it helps to be educated and not jump just because a certain vehicle looks pretty, or has a certain option mix. In examining a restored car, and ESP today, in a car hyped as a "survivor" (hate that word) it's very important to have true expert eyes going over said vehicle, before purchase.

1) Born with numbers match drivetrain in strong operating condition means a lot in assessing value ESP in a tripower equipped 4 spd early GTO. As far as a partial VIN goes, there are other ways to approach determining if drivetrain is original. I'm not up on which early year plants printed the original engine assembly number (aka engine unit number) on the IBM build card, and which didn't. Original protect-o-plates also carried this number which was originally stamped on the face of the original block. Hope his helps.


----------



## stewartlong (May 30, 2015)

Thanks ever so much for the insight from all 3 of you and your in depth insight Pinion Head, turned on a whole rank of lights in my head and memories came rushing back.

So you get a feel for what I am looking for, "I want a "driver car" that yes there's some large money in it but I want to take this with the wife on AACA tours and enjoy driving it with value at the end when its sold."

Here's a quick story to tell you and our readers on a '65 GTO that I ended up talking to the broker of a classic car website in person here in Nashville, with a questionnaire that I had prepared for any car I was looking at (starting writing "my dream GTO" 50 years ago and developed this questionnaire out of that).

The car was a 2012 "Restored" (1650 miles on it since the restoration) Nightwatch Blue with all of the birds and whistles of the GTO option package on it. But, when I got to the questions of "WHAT ACTUALLY WAS RESTORED" under the hood, red flags started coming up.

Questions like:

1. Is this the original 389 360 HP TRI-POWER w/ Frigidaire AC?
2. What actually was overhauled on the engine to make it ETHANOL ready? Rings? Valves? Pistons? Just what went on?
3. Was the TRI-POWER overhauled in the restoration and did the accelerator pumps have ETHANOL resistant caps put on?
4. Had the AC been overhauled and are we using the new FREON?

and on and on and on that he could at times had no answer.

Bottom line: "*This car was built as a 1965 TEMPEST GTO and arrived with a WT CODE 389 336 HP 4-barrel; with a 3:23:1 rear; no AC; 3-speed manual; and all the amenities, badges, and accessories of a GTO*

So now what do I see under the hood you ask: (I'm using his pictures now)

*"TRI-POWER with dirty air fliters (for 1600 miles on it since this it was supposedly restored). Unless you were in a coal mine running it, for something that had been overhauled, it wouldn't look like that. It should be pristine white. And it was a vacuum set-up with hose type connections all ready to leak, because they looked old.

Continuing: a freshly painted 389 block and since this guy couldn't give me any type of numbers I couldn't tell if it was a 360 HP or a 336 HP.

Then the AC; but the all time kicker...get ready for this....5-speed and he said the only way you can tell its a 5-speed is the gear shift knob. He couldn't tell me if it was a TCP; Muncie; or Tim Buc' Too or what it was. Right along with he couldn't tell me if it was Harrison or Walker radiator to support the AC.
*

He said that the owner had limited documentation".

My question: "Where's the line drawn between this and what they call a CLONE?"

It looked like a "SWAP MEET COLLECTION" under there., all nice and pretty don't you know.

He asked me what I thought it was worth without all the numbers without giving me all of the information (and he didn't have any resource back home to get it either), I said somewhere between $50K-$100K but not over $100K. He wanted $90K for it.

So I came to you folks for help in tuning me up to reality in these markets of what price range is with mismatched numbers versus matched numbers and my memories. And boy you fellas are so right there is a lot of dressing up of junk and getting this "period correct" label thrown around.

I'm still looking.

Any thoughts on what I just told you in this story to share with me and others will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Stew


----------



## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

PM sent


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Stew, you might try the AMES/Performance Years forums. There is a registry for real '65 GTO 3x2 four speed ragtops there. Be advised that real, documented 3x2 ragtops are as rare as hens teeth and command astronomical prices. MANY 4bbl stickshift ragtops were upgraded to 3x2. A real 3x2 4 speed ragtop with the documentation to confirm it will command 100k and up. You could get a nice, real GTO that has been upgraded to tripower for about half that. Stay away from the dealers if you can. Private parties and forum/club members are the way to go. You'll get a better car for less.


----------



## stewartlong (May 30, 2015)

Thanks you ever so much for replying and giving such sound advice.

Because I wanted to use this car as a "driver car" and go on AACA tours with the wife, I figured something in the $55K-$75K range with the intention that there's work to be done and the assumption that somebody along the way has screwed with the TRI-POWER, and just pull it and have it sent out and have them rebuild it to make sure all the right parts are in it to support using ETHANOL gas and get it back to "ground zero". Then pay them extra to teach me how to keep it tuned and maintained if any.

Then I would make sure the shocks are OK. If not replace them.

Then, make sure the factory AC is running properly and cooling.

Then go after the brakes and make sure they are good for at least 1 season of touring and then during the winter time get all 4 corners with disc brakes and dual master cylinder set-up.

Then in general over the 2nd winter pull the heads and see what's going on.

Your thoughts please everybody on my strategy on when I get any 1965 GTO dream machine and getting it checked over and declared "mine" because I know what's in it.

Thanks again for your time and support on my project.

Stew


----------



## crustysack (Oct 5, 2008)

yeah you can rub that 90k on your chest- no verified docs- run away, if you are going to drop that kind of money you can get a numbers matching fully documented from birth GTO with NO red flags- take your time and you can find the right car for a fair price- I mean really these cars do not command that kind of price unless it is some unmolested all original owned by the little old lady in Pasadena with all the whistles and bells- in2013 a triple black FULLY doc'ed convert went for 68k, 2014 a similar car with a 421 tri power went for 47k, in 2015 a burgundy with white top went for 99k( this was a Florida car with a complete restoration 1 0f 3 in the tri power registry) 
So what level of car are you looking for??
You should be able to buy any car in the 55-75k range and assume that ZERO work needs to be done ,if not then you got screwed. 
I think I am not out of line to assume that if I buy a 50k 65 GTO it should be good to go for years to come.
Or on the other hand buy a 4-8k car and rebuild it- for 50- 75k you will have one of the nicest cars around- I've got less than 20k into mine ( on top of the 8k to buy car)


----------



## stewartlong (May 30, 2015)

Excellent advice and thanks so much for taking the time to reply.

Everything you have said is exactly what I have run into and I haven't been out in the market long.

That's the range I figure to work in $55K-$75K and I'm just going to hold tight. Probably going to wait a long time but that's OK just trying to stay away from the dealers and auctions because of the jacking up of the prices on all fronts.

Thanks again.

Stew


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

In checking the archives, at present, only 50 remaining real tripower 4 speed ragtops have been located worldwide. That's not a lot of cars.....


----------



## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

geeteeohguy said:


> In checking the archives, at present, only 50 remaining real tripower 4 speed ragtops have been located worldwide. That's not a lot of cars.....


Wow, it is going to take a full box of stupid money to buy one of these and that's if you can even find one and an owner willing to sell.
I bet there is one rotting in a barn somewhere though so you never know.


----------



## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

geeteeohguy said:


> In checking the archives, at present, only 50 remaining real tripower 4 speed ragtops have been located worldwide. That's not a lot of cars.....


archives...hmmm, another, don't believe everything you read. I would forward, no entity, not even PHS, knows exactly how many of any certain optioned Pontiac still exist. 
Every time, I read an article that such a vehicle is so rare, as only so many of such vehicle are still registered, I always get a good chuckle as where did the author get that info(?) and there are so many same model vehicles out there in collections that vehicle registrations have not been kept up.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

PH, I'm referring to the Performance Years archives....and no other sources. Just forum members and friends of members who have posted. Of course you are right, but still, there are very few real TP/4sp ragtops out there that were born that way, 50 years later. You participate over there, so you know the score. What I'm trying to say is that it is going to take some serious cash to buy a real car in the condition the OP wants. Probably north of 80k.


----------



## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

geeteeohguy said:


> PH, I'm referring to the Performance Years archives....and no other sources. Just forum members and friends of members who have posted. Of course you are right, but still, there are very few real TP/4sp ragtops out there that were born that way, 50 years later. You participate over there, so you know the score. What I'm trying to say is that it is going to take some serious cash to buy a real car in the condition the OP wants. Probably north of 80k.


What do you think about this one?

65 GTO CONVERTIBLE

Are the front seats done right?
Shouldn't the ribs point to the center of the car instead of the doors?

looks great in the pics but I don't get the original motor is on a stand and you can buy it separate, I don't understand why he would market it this way instead of a package deal for everything.
Very odd.


----------



## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

geeteeohguy said:


> PH, I'm referring to the Performance Years archives....and no other sources. Just forum members and friends of members who have posted. Of course you are right, but still, there are very few real TP/4sp ragtops out there that were born that way, 50 years later. You participate over there, so you know the score. What I'm trying to say is that it is going to take some serious cash to buy a real car in the condition the OP wants. Probably north of 80k.


Totally agree such a tall order is going to be a tough find, and it's going to be expensive. IMO, a solid straight 389 4 bbl 4spd convert, needing paint might be the way to get into a manual trans '65 GTO convert reasonable. Then have the car professionally painted and add a rebuilt '65 tripower. Just got to stay away from the over priced puppy mill junk.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Good Eye, Roper. Yep, the front seat covers are on backwards. Should be pointing towards the front of the car, like the bow of a boat. The rear cover is correct. Too bad, because they used the good quality covers on this car. Car is beautiful, though. Really stunning.


----------



## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

Tri-pwr unit on that car is messed up pretty bad as well.


----------



## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Roger that said:


> Tri-pwr unit on that car is messed up pretty bad as well.


You also get a glimpse of the suspension in the brakes link, the shocks look pretty roached.
Going to be some bucks going through the mechanical, suspension, rubber etc.


----------



## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

I came across this one on Chicago CL

1965 GTO Tri Power 4spd 3:90 Convertible


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

1966 3x2 documented 4 speed convertable for sale. 

Pontiac GTO GTO | eBay


----------

