# Advice on drop spindles vs. lowering springs



## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

About to embark on a 4 wheel disc upgrade on my 66. I just redid the rear springs (stock), shocks (kyb semi firm) and upgraded to tubular upper and lower control arms with a swaybar. It is a bit stiff and a bit taller than I'd like, which I hope will calm down, but a huge improvement over my sagging stock stuff.

For the front everything is still stock. I have a used set of QUICKOR 1.5" drop springs and KYB shocks I was planning to use with stock spindles, but read recently that springs can alter the suspension geometry and limit travel and drop spindles are a better choice. So, now I am looking at using a CPP 2" drop spindle Wilwood brake combo with new stock springs and KYB shocks.









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My goal is to drop the front 1.5-2" to improve fender gap, but also get some improved handling without rattling fillings. My car is unrestored and still very "squeaky" so not looking for an autocross suspension, if that makes sense. Pics of current stance attached.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## Researcher (Jun 29, 2020)

Id like to see what you come up with. I also read the same about the springs changing the geometry and to use spindles. I also read somewhere that new spindles aren’t great quality and to try and find spindles from a cutlass in the junk yard and you’ll get a drop.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I just redid the front and rear, upper and lowers on my 67, with Global West Tubular arms, UMI "stock height" coils, and Bilsteins. Yes, it all changes the geometry. If you simply push down on the front of your car, you can see the camber and toe in changing... I believe they call that bump steer. 

I can tell you that when I just ditched my 55 year old coils, it completely threw out the alignment. It raised the front at least 2".

Personally, I love GTO's that sit high and level. I realize that's subjective. My 70 Vette sits high, too. In my experience, a well maintained and cohesive configuration, works better than simply lowering the car. If you're going for aesthetics, then there are many solutions, but if your concern is handling, then try and find an existing setup and follow their guidelines or components.

Hit up the Global West website. They have many A Body videos and they race these cars. They also answer the phone and are extremely helpful. I called them and told them that I was going to have trouble installing their parts, because of my headers. I figured that theyd laugh at me. They actually told me how to do it and save about 6 hours!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Looking at your pictures and reading, it seems like you did it right, but you only did the back, correct? I apologize if my comments are a bit subjective/ opinionated, but I see that you have low profile tires, and (maybe) that's why the tires arent filling in the wheel well. The problem is, as I mentioned earlier, the components all need to match, before you'll notice improvements. The mere addition of low profile tires, won't help the handling on an "overly" worn suspension of cars like ours, which never handled well, even when new! If you finish your front suspension to match the back, then you'll likely love the handling, but it won't give the look you want.

Bigger rims with lower tires would help, but not be cheap. All I can say is that my 70 Vette, sitting high on stock dimension, classic BFG 70 Radials, handles like a cream puff, on a slot car track. I contribute it to everything working together well.

Sorry I can't be of more help, but watch Dougs videos on Global West.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

armyadarkness said:


> Looking at your pictures and reading, it seems like you did it right, but you only did the back, correct? I apologize if my comments are a bit subjective/ opinionated, but I see that you have low profile tires, and (maybe) that's why the tires arent filling in the wheel well. The problem is, as I mentioned earlier, the components all need to match, before you'll notice improvements. The mere addition of low profile tires, won't help the handling on an "overly" worn suspension of cars like ours, which never handled well, even when new! If you finish your front suspension to match the back, then you'll likely love the handling, but it won't give the look you want.
> 
> Bigger rims with lower tires would help, but not be cheap. All I can say is that my 70 Vette, sitting high on stock dimension, classic BFG 70 Radials, handles like a cream puff, on a slot car track. I contribute it to everything working together well.
> 
> Sorry I can't be of more help, but watch Dougs videos on Global West.



Thanks army. Yes, only the back is done so far.

Those are 17s on there with 245 and 275 (rear) 45 17 tires. So, they have the same overall diameter as the stock 205/75/14 equivalent tires and, thus, the same fender well gap.

I'm familiar with Global West, great parts but $$ and I'm not in the market to do a full a arm upgrade. I'll check out there videos though. 

I'm pondering just bolting up a Wilwood kit to the existing drum spindles and adding new shocks = no change front ride height BUT old springs stay with better shocks
vs.
2" Drop spindle with new stock height springs and shocks = 1.5ish" drop in front. That'll give it the raked look I like. I'm not a huge fan of the pro touring stance, but I would like the front a bit lower. 

Just not sure which would provide the best road manners.

Thanks!


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## 67lemans (Oct 30, 2009)

To me, I think your car sets just right as is. Depending on the age and condition of your front control arm bushings they may have as much impact on the performance feel up there as anything, especially cornering. I would make sure they are in good shape or replaced in the process.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

Thanks 67, I'll make sure to check the bushings. 

After sleeping on it, I'll likely just retain the stock spindles/springs for now to speed up the brake swap process. I will be adding new front shocks though.


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## JLuger (Sep 8, 2012)

Here’s my 66 with UMI 1 inch drop springs a
4 wheel disk conversion from CPP with stock spindle height factory control arms bigger sway bars and a Jeep Grand Cherokee steering box. 15 wheels 235/60/15


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

ylwgto said:


> Thanks army. Yes, only the back is done so far.
> 
> Those are 17s on there with 245 and 275 (rear) 45 17 tires. So, they have the same overall diameter as the stock 205/75/14 equivalent tires and, thus, the same fender well gap.
> 
> ...


Wow! They're 17"s! I have to say, even though I never really cared for the "custom rim/ lo-pro" look IN GENERAL, I do think that it works on your car. Coincidently, the reason that I never cared for it is exactly why you don't... It never seems to fill out the wheel well. It's not just GTO's... I don't like them on Vette's, Novas, Chevelles, anything! To my brain, muscle cars had big tires, dual exhaust, hood scoops...

When I had my Trans Am they told me that it needed a 3" single exhaust to make power, and I said no way!

A GTO is no easy car to fill the wheel wells on!

As for the Global West stuff... Yeah, I think I paid 3 times what I couldve gotten stuff for on Summit. There are much cheaper options. I just started using UMI and their stuff is awesome!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

67lemans said:


> To me, I think your car sets just right as is. Depending on the age and condition of your front control arm bushings they may have as much impact on the performance feel up there as anything, especially cornering. I would make sure they are in good shape or replaced in the process.


I'm the second owner on my car. Garage kept, 70k. Of the 8 front CA bushings, 2 were completely missing and 3 were destroyed. Those front ends hide some crap that can really ruin your fun! Now my car rides like a Caddy!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

JLuger said:


> Here’s my 66 with UMI 1 inch drop springs a
> 4 wheel disk conversion from CCP with stock spindle height factory control arms bigger sway bars and a Jeep Grand Cherokee steering box. 15 wheels 235/60/15
> View attachment 140010
> View attachment 140010


That looks just right! Hard to believe that they're dropped springs. I just installed UMI stock height and I love them. I had to actually add a 1" spacer to the rear because the front came up so much. 55 year old suspension is not good!


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## JLuger (Sep 8, 2012)

Thanks. I think so too, I was a little nervous about how it was going to sit but I’m happy with it.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

JLuger said:


> Thanks. I think so too, I was a little nervous about how it was going to sit but I’m happy with it.


Lol... This is how I like GTO's to sit, so I'm a bad person to ask about lo-pro tires, drop spindles, and cut springs.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

JLuger said:


> Thanks. I think so too, I was a little nervous about how it was going to sit but I’m happy with it.


that is perfect ride height in my opinion too. nice.
how is the ride quality? not too harsh? what shocks did you go with?
thanks for chiming in.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

armyadarkness said:


> Lol... This is how I like GTO's to sit, so I'm a bad person to ask about lo-pro tires, drop spindles, and cut springs.
> View attachment 140023



HA! nice...

When I got my goat in 1997 (at 16), I put air adjust shocks in the back and jacked the back up as high as i could. funny how tastes change over the years.


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## JLuger (Sep 8, 2012)

KYB’s pretty gd ride Not to stiff not ready for auto cross but a decent low budget setup that gives it a much tighter feel. I think running 15 inch instead of a lower profile setup helps the overall ride quality also.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

armyadarkness said:


> Wow! They're 17"s! I have to say, even though I never really cared for the "custom rim/ lo-pro" look IN GENERAL, I do think that it works on your car. Coincidently, the reason that I never cared for it is exactly why you don't... It never seems to fill out the wheel well. It's not just GTO's... I don't like them on Vette's, Novas, Chevelles, anything! To my brain, muscle cars had big tires, dual exhaust, hood scoops...
> 
> When I had my Trans Am they told me that it needed a 3" single exhaust to make power, and I said no way!
> 
> ...



Thanks. I spent about a year finding the right wheels that wouldn't look like 17s, but were. Very happy with them.


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## JLuger (Sep 8, 2012)

ylwgto said:


> that is perfect ride height in my opinion too. nice.
> how is the ride quality? not too harsh? what shocks did you go with?
> thanks for chiming in.





ylwgto said:


> that is perfect ride height in my opinion too. nice.
> how is the ride quality? not too harsh? what shocks did you go with?
> thanks for chiming in.


KYB’s pretty gd ride Not to stiff not ready for auto cross but a decent low budget setup that gives it a much tighter feel. I think running 15 inch instead of a lower profile setup helps the overall ride quality also.


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## ricknkjo (Oct 12, 2013)

Before I rebuilt my 66 with QA1 coil overs I had just 1" lowered springs and it sat decent but did not handle like it does now.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

Went with 1" lowering from UMI. will post pics once they are in. Thanks for the advice!


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

armyadarkness said:


> I just redid the front and rear, upper and lowers on my 67, with Global West Tubular arms, UMI "stock height" coils, and Bilsteins. Yes, it all changes the geometry. If you simply push down on the front of your car, you can see the camber and toe in changing... I believe they call that bump steer.
> 
> I can tell you that when I just ditched my 55 year old coils, it completely threw out the alignment. It raised the front at least 2".
> 
> ...



Army, when you instal front tubular upper a arms, do you use shims or is the new camber geometry already engineered into the unit itself? 

I'm thinking about picking up a budget set like this 1964-1972 Chevelle Monte Carlo GTO Heavy Duty (4) Tubular Control Arms A Body GM | eBay
and replacing all ball joints with MOOG K5103 and K5108

Cannot afford GW, unfortunately. 
also, did you have to "massage" the lower control arm into the frame on your 67 or was it an easy fit? I've read some of these overseas kits are a very tight fit requiring some minor grinding to squeeze them between the frame mounts.

Thanks!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

ylwgto said:


> Army, when you instal front tubular upper a arms, do you use shims or is the new camber geometry already engineered into the unit itself?
> 
> I'm thinking about picking up a budget set like this 1964-1972 Chevelle Monte Carlo GTO Heavy Duty (4) Tubular Control Arms A Body GM | eBay
> and replacing all ball joints with MOOG K5103 and K5108
> ...


In my research, it did appear that most of the companies were building positive caster into the arms, and certainly GW does. However, every car will be different when it comes to all alignment specs. The assembly variations from plant to plant and person to person, are probably enough to warrant it, but once you factor in 55 years of accidents, drag racing, and potholes, it's impossible to imagine a standardized alignment spec.

So, yes! Expect to need shims, and maybe you wont! If you do need them, they're SUPER EASY to add with tubular arms, so as long as you have a way to verify plumb on a wheel, you can check yourself and add them. It's very easy and cheap to rig up a rod which fits in your rim, and then you can buy any one of a dozen tools from Harbor Fright, for checking angles.

The GW arms dropped right in... However!


If you have headers, the lower CA, rearward bolt can be tough to access. There will be clearance issues, as well as the potentially, standard... 55 year old, I hate you more than anything, rusted steel inside this rubber bushing factor. An air chisel and penetrating oil will get it, but be prepared to blow your chances of becoming a pastor, once you're done cursing. Also, it doesn't hurt to have spare bolts on hand, in case your originals are so rusted/ seized/ stripped, or have to be cut. These are hardened, so they wont be at the parts store.
If you have headers, you may not be able to slide the upper control arm shafts off of the fame mounts (the studs where the shims go). However, those studs are pressed in, so if you have clearance and lverage, you can pop em out... but once again, unless Jesus is coming over to help, expect a fight. The work around? The studs are knurled like wheel studs, so: Either have new ones on hand, in which case you can just spin them out from the wheel opening, and then install new ones, OR since the new arms will now allow you wrench access to the back, stick em right back in... Which is what I did.
I was able to do my own alignment and the car rides perfect 120 MPH... but you can at least get it close. Napa has shims, you may need them, but start without them. Either way, don't be afraid of the job. I did both upper and lowers, with new springs and shocks, as well as tie rods, on a single Saturday, by myself.

I also have a 70 Vette, and since they have 4 wheel alignment, none of the local shops would touch it. I had no choice but to buy this... I know it's pricey, but if you have friends you can pay for it doing their alignments, or use it and then sell it.



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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

By the way, I wouldn't be afraid to use the overseas kits, either. Most of them were designed here, by experts. Just because they're saving on manufacturing, doesn't mean that they suck. Plus, as long as you can either get them with or upgrade later to better balljoints and bushings, then it's an even sweeter deal.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

Great info, Army, thanks.

i do have headers, so I'll have to go look at the car and see how gnarly they'll make this!

Did you use the floor jack method to let your lower arm down after unbolting the spindle to get the spring out? never done that, but seems a good method compared to a spring compressor, which I've had fits with in t he past.

Again, thanks!!


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

So I see what you mean about the header issue. I will definitely not be able to 1. slide the upper control arms off the frame bolt studs without popping those pressed studs 2. will not be able to slide the lower rear bushing bolts out. For 2, I guess I'd have to cut the bolt head off and drive it out the other way, then on reinstal have the nut end facing the header?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

ylwgto said:


> Did you use the floor jack method to let your lower arm down after unbolting the spindle to get the spring out? never done that, but seems a good method compared to a spring compressor, which I've had fits with in t he past.


The coils are well tucked inside the frame, plus you have the spindle and brake assembly between you and the spring. 

I unbolt the shock top, but leave the bottom shock bolts in. Which should hold the spring if it were needed.
Then I loosen the lower balljoint nut, but leave it threaded on... back it off at least 1/8 from the spindle.
Then use an air chisel/ hammer with a balljoint fork on it. The spring pressure will pop it.
Then put a jack under it, undo the nut the rest of the way, and lower the jack. Use the air fork on the top, afterward.
Reverse, install the upper arm.
Install the lower arm.
Put the coil in. Thread a spring compressor down through the shock hole. Crank it.
Tighten the compressor and/ or jack the arm up until you can thread the nuts on the balljoints, and done.
I've never had one fight me yet.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

ylwgto said:


> So I see what you mean about the header issue. I will definitely not be able to 1. slide the upper control arms off the frame bolt studs without popping those pressed studs 2. will not be able to slide the lower rear bushing bolts out. For 2, I guess I'd have to cut the bolt head off and drive it out the other way, then on reinstal have the nut end facing the header?


Yeah... Upper arm header clearance is impossible, but now you know what to do... It'll take minutes.

As for the lower arm, rearward bolt; once you remove the forward bolt, you'll likely be able to adjust the removal trajectory of the rearward bolt. I believe that I got it that way. The air chisel and penetrating oil combination, make quick work of it. I had no issue removing it, but it was close. I also have Dougs headers... I'm sure they're not all in the same place. Worst case, loosen the motor mount and jack up the engine.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

On reinstall, yes, put the nut on, any way that you can. Pretty sure that you'll get the R&R without issue. I did it on my back in the driveway. BTW... Husky/ Home Depot air chisel with fork attachment from napa.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

armyadarkness said:


> On reinstall, yes, put the nut on, any way that you can. Pretty sure that you'll get the R&R without issue. I did it on my back in the driveway. BTW... Husky/ Home Depot air chisel with fork attachment from napa.



sounds good. might give this a go. have hedman headers that are in the way in all the right places!

I'll probably just use a pickle fork and hammer. and I guess I may as well replace all my tie rods and center link joints while I'm at it...

do you have a resource for torque specs on all the suspension bolts?

thanks, Army! good stuff.


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## Lawddog (Jan 2, 2020)

ylwgto said:


> Went with 1" lowering from UMI. will post pics once they are in. Thanks for the advice!


Let me know how it works out, thinking about doing the same thing...


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

ylwgto said:


> sounds good. might give this a go. have hedman headers that are in the way in all the right places!
> 
> I'll probably just use a pickle fork and hammer. and I guess I may as well replace all my tie rods and center link joints while I'm at it...
> 
> ...


The GW stuff gave torque specs, but I've been working on cars for 35 years and have never been a torquer! I suck. It's so rare that I can get a T wrench where I need it... Plus, when I worked as an engineer fro Predator carbs, we never calibrated any of the wrenches, so they were all off. The specs are readily available if you need them, and I can photo my papers for you, too.

I bought the top teir tie rod ends and sleeves from NAPA. They're lifetime.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

answered my own question about torque specs

Front Suspension torque specs:
upper control arm shaft to upper control arm frame bolts…60 lb-ft
lower control arm bolts…80 lb-ft
spindle to ball joint (upper)…55 lb-ft
spindle to ball joint (lower)…85 lb-ft
Center link to pitman arm…35 lb-ft
Center link to idler arm…35 lb-ft
Idler mount to frame bolts…60 lb-ft
Pitman arm big nut…180 lb-ft
Tie rod to center link…40 lb-ft
Tie rod to steering arm…40 lb-ft
shocks to frame…8 lb-ft
shocks to lower arm…20 lb-ft
swaybar bracket to frame…13 lb-ft
swaybar link…10 lb-ft


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## Jim K (Nov 17, 2020)

I've been reading through all of the posts in this thread with interest as I'm "in the middle" of suspension mods for my 71 Goat.. Regarding drop springs versus drop spindles, etc.. etc.. My aim is to correct a front suspension ride height problem since I have taken so much weight off the front end. First step was to cut one coil off the factory springs.. Left me way to high in the front end. Second step was to go with Hotchkis 1" lowering springs in the front and factory type HD springs in the back (which give you an additional 1/2-3/4" height). Now I'm looking at drop spindles.. Ran across several online articles and videos around this.. The two links below I found to be the best and most informative. I like the Chris Craft video because he explains things to where even my two little brain cells can understand it.. If anyone has already seen either of these, my apologies.. But one can never have too much info when it comes to suspension geometry..
Oh yeah, after all my research, I've chosen Detroit Speed products for this upgrade. Yeah they are pricey but in my 62+ years I've learned the hard way, you get what you pay for.. In the past when I couldn't afford the really well made/engineered stuff I went with the overseas part.. And learned.. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt..
Hope either of these two articles may help someone..




Suspension Tech: The GM A-Body -


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Jim K said:


> I've been reading through all of the posts in this thread with interest as I'm "in the middle" of suspension mods for my 71 Goat.. Regarding drop springs versus drop spindles, etc.. etc.. My aim is to correct a front suspension ride height problem since I have taken so much weight off the front end. First step was to cut one coil off the factory springs.. Left me way to high in the front end. Second step was to go with Hotchkis 1" lowering springs in the front and factory type HD springs in the back (which give you an additional 1/2-3/4" height). Now I'm looking at drop spindles.. Ran across several online articles and videos around this.. The two links below I found to be the best and most informative. I like the Chris Craft video because he explains things to where even my two little brain cells can understand it.. If anyone has already seen either of these, my apologies.. But one can never have too much info when it comes to suspension geometry..
> Oh yeah, after all my research, I've chosen Detroit Speed products for this upgrade. Yeah they are pricey but in my 62+ years I've learned the hard way, you get what you pay for.. In the past when I couldn't afford the really well made/engineered stuff I went with the overseas part.. And learned.. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt..
> Hope either of these two articles may help someone..
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, even though I've done upper, lower, front, and rear on several cars now, I'm personally not a "drop" fan, so I've never done any research on it. Adding geometry into the equation, certainly makes part selection much more critical. Nothing ruins your fun like a 450 HP car with crappy suspension.


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

Jim K said:


> I've been reading through all of the posts in this thread with interest as I'm "in the middle" of suspension mods for my 71 Goat.. Regarding drop springs versus drop spindles, etc.. etc.. My aim is to correct a front suspension ride height problem since I have taken so much weight off the front end. First step was to cut one coil off the factory springs.. Left me way to high in the front end. Second step was to go with Hotchkis 1" lowering springs in the front and factory type HD springs in the back (which give you an additional 1/2-3/4" height). Now I'm looking at drop spindles.. Ran across several online articles and videos around this.. The two links below I found to be the best and most informative. I like the Chris Craft video because he explains things to where even my two little brain cells can understand it.. If anyone has already seen either of these, my apologies.. But one can never have too much info when it comes to suspension geometry..
> Oh yeah, after all my research, I've chosen Detroit Speed products for this upgrade. Yeah they are pricey but in my 62+ years I've learned the hard way, you get what you pay for.. In the past when I couldn't afford the really well made/engineered stuff I went with the overseas part.. And learned.. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt..
> Hope either of these two articles may help someone..


 Real interesting stuff. I have been researching mods to do on my 67 Cougar and Shelby had moved the upper control arms down to acheive the same result. Running on the upper part of the suspension arc to get negative camber. On the cougar you just drill holes to move the arm down an inch. Its called the Arning Drop, he was the engineer that figured it out. Easier than installing a new front end.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

67ventwindow said:


> Real interesting stuff. I have been researching mods to do on my 67 Cougar and Shelby had moved the upper control arms down to acheive the same result. Running on the upper part of the suspension arc to get negative camber. On the cougar you just drill holes to move the arm down an inch. Its called the Arning Drop, he was the engineer that figured it out. Easier than installing a new front end.


One thing is certain, now is the time to do this stuff. This is the age... 30 years ago, backyard mechanics had to figure out that Ford rears and Pinto front ends were good, and then fab it all. Now, POOF! Amazon and it's on your doorstep.


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

You are right, 55 and 5 young kids at home. I would not be doing this with cars with out having all you guys available to talk to on the internet. You are my Auto hobby shop, machine shop, paint shop and go fast shop I hung out with 30 years ago. Its great to have all the parts at your finger tips but they arn't good for much if you cant apply it to your car. There is a great benefit to get your question out there even though most people think its obvious sometimes there is something in your head that keeps you from seeing it. I should have known that was the package shelf was under the rear filler panel. But for some reason I thought package stopped at the window. It may have been that way in a car I saw light years ago.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

67ventwindow said:


> Real interesting stuff. I have been researching mods to do on my 67 Cougar and Shelby had moved the upper control arms down to acheive the same result. Running on the upper part of the suspension arc to get negative camber. On the cougar you just drill holes to move the arm down an inch. Its called the Arning Drop, he was the engineer that figured it out. Easier than installing a new front end.


Very cool, would be interested in any info you had to share on the Arning drop method. My dad has been fixing up his '69 Cougar and put new "stock" front springs in...it's now about 4" too high in the front and looks like a 4x4! gotta help him get it back down. Another guy refered to the drilled hole method locally, but I was not sure what he was talking about. Do tell if you have info. Does it change ride height or just suspension geometry for better handling? Do you retain stock springs?

Thanks!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

ylwgto said:


> Very cool, would be interested in any info you had to share on the Arning drop method. My dad has been fixing up his '69 Cougar and put new "stock" front springs in...it's now about 4" too high in the front and looks like a 4x4! gotta help him get it back down. Another guy refered to the drilled hole method locally, but I was not sure what he was talking about. Do tell if you have info. Does it change ride height or just suspension geometry for better handling? Do you retain stock springs?
> 
> Thanks!


Not that you or your dad would miss this step, but in case you werent aware: the car must be taken for a ride after the front springs are done. If you just do the job and lower the car off the jack, it'll sit WAY up. Take it for a good ride and then stop, and it'll sink several inches.

I couldnt even align my car because it was so high. I had to wait at least a week for it all to settle. It's critical that the car go driving and then come to a soft stop, before taking any measurements or doing an alignment. If it's a new build and not driving yet, wait until it's all done before you assess your suspension abilities.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

armyadarkness said:


> Not that you or your dad would miss this step, but in case you werent aware: the car must be taken for a ride after the front springs are done. If you just do the job and lower the car off the jack, it'll sit WAY up. Take it for a good ride and then stop, and it'll sink several inches.
> 
> I couldnt even align my car because it was so high. I had to wait at least a week for it all to settle. It's critical that the car go driving and then come to a soft stop, before taking any measurements or doing an alignment. If it's a new build and not driving yet, wait until it's all done before you assess your suspension abilities.



Yeah, we've driven it quite a bit and it is not settling down. Actually wondering if putting a ford racing 302 with aluminum heads/intake is significantly lighter than the original 351W.

this would be too high even for your tastes, Army! it looks like a gasser


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

ylwgto said:


> Yeah, we've driven it quite a bit and it is not settling down. Actually wondering if putting a ford racing 302 with aluminum heads/intake is significantly lighter than the original 351W.
> 
> this would be too high even for your tastes, Army! it looks like a gasser


I'll bet it is lighter. I just pulled the OEM radiator and it's 5lbs heavier than the replacement.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Very interesting!!!








What are the Biggest tires and Wheels for 1964-1972 Chevelle and El Camino


Pit Stop: With proper backspacing, modern max Tire/Wheel combos will fit 1964 To 1972 Chevelles And El Caminos. Known real-world combos from top suspension experts.




www.hotrod.com


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)




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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

WOW! 18x11 inch tires on the rear!


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

ylwgto said:


> Very cool, would be interested in any info you had to share on the Arning drop method. My dad has been fixing up his '69 Cougar and put new "stock" front springs in...it's now about 4" too high in the front and looks like a 4x4! gotta help him get it back down. Another guy refered to the drilled hole method locally, but I was not sure what he was talking about. Do tell if you have info. Does it change ride height or just suspension geometry for better handling? Do you retain stock springs?
> 
> Thanks!


DazeCars, Shelby Drop, Klaus Arning drop, upper control arm drop, Falcon, Mustang, Cougar 60-70 has some good info on the drop. It lowers the suspension an inch and 3/4 of an inch in ride height. They sell a template for a couple bucks so its done right. 
I don't know where you got the springs from but I use _ Buy Quality Automotive Leaf Springs, Coil Springs and Suspension Parts for your Classic or Antique Auto there are so many different springs if it is a Boss, GT, big block, small block, AC , bench seat. I knew nothing about mercury before I bought my cougar. They are always helpful FYI West Coast Classic Cougars has tons of videos. 

Now we have a old beetle and that is a totally different animal as well._


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

67ventwindow said:


> DazeCars, Shelby Drop, Klaus Arning drop, upper control arm drop, Falcon, Mustang, Cougar 60-70 has some good info on the drop. It lowers the suspension an inch and 3/4 of an inch in ride height. They sell a template for a couple bucks so its done right.
> I don't know where you got the springs from but I use _ Buy Quality Automotive Leaf Springs, Coil Springs and Suspension Parts for your Classic or Antique Auto there are so many different springs if it is a Boss, GT, big block, small block, AC , bench seat. I knew nothing about mercury before I bought my cougar. They are always helpful FYI West Coast Classic Cougars has tons of videos.
> 
> Now we have a old beetle and that is a totally different animal as well._



This is awesome. Thanks!


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

Well, I bit the bullet and ordered a full front end steering reboot

Overseas tubular control arms (will replace ball joints with MOOG)
new center link, tie rods, idler arm (all MOOG)

When I do my brakes I'll put the UMI 1" drop springs and KYB 4516s in and redo all the steering linkage.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I have I have a set of KYB shocks that I took out of my GTO. They have less than 50 miles on them. I don't know what number they are but you're welcome to them


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

armyadarkness said:


> I have I have a set of KYB shocks that I took out of my GTO. They have less than 50 miles on them. I don't know what number they are but you're welcome to them


thanks man, but already have these 4516s which are supposed to be good for slight drops (unless they are shot...I got them from a friends car!)


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

Well I got the big conversion done, finally. Posting pics and info like I said I would.

-4 wheel Wilwood Dynalite disc conversion
-Ford 9" rear swap
-UMI rear control arms/sway
-Speedway Motors front tubular control arms (replaced stock ball joints with MOOG)
-UMI 1" lowering springs
-New center link and tie rods
-Hotchkis 1.5 shocks

All went pretty smooth. The brakes are an amazing upgrade. Pedal feel is like a modern car. The rear (3.25) gits up, but now I'm 3000 RPM at 70 on the Freeway, so I see a 200r4 conversion in my (distant) future.

Issues I ran into:
-rear tires rubbing a bit on inner fender with the new rear. installing 5mm spacers to fix that
-the Speedway control arms have built in sway end links that are further forward than stock links on stock control arm. my swaybar arms would not line up with them (holes too far back). trying to figure that out still, while swaybar is off (car not handling well)

Amazingly, the driveshaft did not have to be modified at all between the early BOP and the 9" with the large yolk.
Thanks for all the help along the way!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Can't you lengthen or shorten the links, to work?


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

armyadarkness said:


> Can't you lengthen or shorten the links, to work?


Maybe, but didn't think links going at a pretty steep angle backward (like 25 degrees) are very good for geometry. I assumed they should be going more or less vertical.
I put the existing sway bar on over 20 years ago, so maybe it was "wrong" all this time...can't remember
considering buying one off Amazon just to see how it compares to the current one off the car.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Vertical would be ideal, but it's very common to have them at angles. I would shorten them and do my best to keep the bar parallel with the ground. None of my links have ever been perfectly vertical and some have been at hard angles


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