# distributer to rebuild or purchase new



## deanhickey (Apr 6, 2015)

I would like some input from on this subject. I am planning on recurving my distributer with weights, springs, points condenser and vacuum can for advance 968 (GTO). I don't plan to go with the dual can for timing retardation that was on 68's only. have been looking at the pertronics igniter 3 and new coil or going all in for a new igniter 3 distributor and coil. What is your experience on the bang for buck? estimated cost 80 for stock rebuild, 200 for pertronics points eliminator and 400 for new distributor and coil. this is a wide range of prices, Is it with spending the big bucks.
*the above pricing does not include beer cost and fines for the swear jar.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

I bought a nos points distributor from ebay. It was not ac delco but a another older aftermarket brand made in the USA for $65. A dist cap with copper inside and nos points also.My total timing was best withe the factory springs that were on it and got 10 degrees of advance from my vacuum can. Many like pertronix or a electronic ignition distributor. But I could use that money elsewhere. And ( I ) would probably not notice the difference. By the way...there is a older nos cardone on ebay for $115. I would trust an older rebuilt one than one you buy at your local parts store now.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

deanhickey said:


> I would like some input from on this subject. I am planning on recurving my distributer with weights, springs, points condenser and vacuum can for advance 968 (GTO). I don't plan to go with the dual can for timing retardation that was on 68's only. have been looking at the pertronics igniter 3 and new coil or going all in for a new igniter 3 distributor and coil. What is your experience on the bang for buck? estimated cost 80 for stock rebuild, 200 for pertronics points eliminator and 400 for new distributor and coil. this is a wide range of prices, Is it with spending the big bucks.
> *the above pricing does not include beer cost and fines for the swear jar.


Just depends on what you want to do. Points are a fine set-up, but the issue I am seeing more and more is trying to get a good set of points and condensor - so I would have a spare set handy. It'll be much cheaper to do the rebuild or as suggested, purchase a rebuilt and then set it up. I got a Cardone rebuild to replace my '68 distributor. Worked just fine as was. Inexpensive. Then I later added the Pertronix electronic conversion which was a snap and no issues in 20K miles. The conversions today have all the bugs worked out, so that might be an option with the points distributor. Just remember to eliminate the resistor wire and add a 12V power source to the coil when the engine is running.

For my 455 build, I went with the Pertonix plug & play billet distributor with the Ignitor II and matching coil. I like the features of the Pertronix. The Ignitor III has the rev limiter which is nice, but you cannot use an MSD box and I have the MSD6A which has the rev limiter, so I went with the Ignitor II so I could use it. Again, have to eliminate the resistor wire and go 12V direct.

If you decide to rebuild your distributor, contact *Integrity* as he rebuilt his points distributor with good results. So it just boils down to what you want to do as each has advantages and disdvantages and price considerations.


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## deanhickey (Apr 6, 2015)

PontiacJim said:


> Just depends on what you want to do. Points are a fine set-up, but the issue I am seeing more and more is trying to get a good set of points and condensor - so I would have a spare set handy. It'll be much cheaper to do the rebuild or as suggested, purchase a rebuilt and then set it up. I got a Cardone rebuild to replace my '68 distributor. Worked just fine as was. Inexpensive. Then I later added the Pertronix electronic conversion which was a snap and no issues in 20K miles. The conversions today have all the bugs worked out, so that might be an option with the points distributor. Just remember to eliminate the resistor wire and add a 12V power source to the coil when the engine is running.
> 
> For my 455 build, I went with the Pertonix plug & play billet distributor with the Ignitor II and matching coil. I like the features of the Pertronix. The Ignitor III has the rev limiter which is nice, but you cannot use an MSD box and I have the MSD6A which has the rev limiter, so I went with the Ignitor II so I could use it. Again, have to eliminate the resistor wire and go 12V direct.
> 
> If you decide to rebuild your distributor, contact *Integrity* as he rebuilt his points distributor with good results. So it just boils down to what you want to do as each has advantages and disdvantages and price considerations.


Thanks, for the input Jim, I think I will try to rebuild/recurve my old distributor and see how it goes, worst case I will pony up for a new billet Ignitor III. It will be a learning process on the rebuild. thanks again.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

deanhickey said:


> Thanks, for the input Jim, I think I will try to rebuild/recurve my old distributor and see how it goes, worst case I will pony up for a new billet Ignitor III. It will be a learning process on the rebuild. thanks again.


I just went trough this mess on my 67. I had the original dizzy with 70k on it and new Pertronix electronics in it. I simply went to HEI and I used a Proform, because I've had excellent luck with their products and customer service. The previous owner didn't eliminate the resistor wire and he used an OEM style, china coil.

A word on THAT!!! I searched high and low, for several months, about how to supply 12 volts for a modern ignition. I finally, simply ran a new wire off the "IGN" accessory port on my fuse block, in my 70 Vette, but my 67 GTO had no such location. So, I ultimately decided to eliminate the resistor wire and then run a new wire, however, in each case where I had read that advice, it was only partially correct. The resistor wire is only hot "in the run position (Ign 1)", so it absolutely needs a jumper off the "start position (ign 2)". I dug through my GM service manuals and I found tha Pontiac actually made a "jumper bar" which they installed on the ignition switch, in cars with CDI ignition. I was not able to find the bar to buy, so if you do eliminate the resistor wire at the bulkhead, you need to jump "Ign 2" into it, either in the engine bay, or behind the fuse block, which is where I did it.

I will sell the Pertronix cheap if you choose to go that route. I do keep my car as stock as possible, but I wont be going back to the old dizzy style.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

They are all ok options, points work good...the new condensers are weak. The Petronix igniter 2 and 3 have variable dwell and that is a nice advantage. They are usually trouble free if you set the gap correct and make sure your ground is good.

when I put points on the dist machinesyou can watch the dwell drop as RPM’s increase, and you can also see the points “float”: the points ride on the distributor cam lobes and cause misfires. This is not a real problem as you don’t see it until like 5800 RPM’s. Of course it depends on the tension of the spring on the points. Racers deal with that issues, but not really street cars.

any of the Hall effect modules don’t have that issue. They manufacturers went to dual points to beat the float and then to HEI. But the lower maintenance and variable dwell and nice issues. But points are nice and crisp start ups, original equipment and usually will allow you to limp home, they grow bad more gradually....the modules not so.

A nice set up is just a Petronix 2 or 3 in an original distributor. Use a quality cap and rotor with brass contacts...I use an MSD cap and rotor....

the timing is what really matters,....and any of them can be set up....


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## deanhickey (Apr 6, 2015)

Lemans guy said:


> They are all ok options, points work good...the new condensers are weak. The Petronix igniter 2 and 3 have variable dwell and that is a nice advantage. They are usually trouble free if you set the gap correct and make sure your ground is good.
> 
> when I put points on the dist machinesyou can watch the dwell drop as RPM’s increase, and you can also see the points “float”: the points ride on the distributor cam lobes and cause misfires. This is not a real problem as you don’t see it until like 5800 RPM’s. Of course it depends on the tension of the spring on the points. Racers deal with that issues, but not really street cars.
> 
> ...





armyadarkness said:


> I just went trough this mess on my 67. I had the original dizzy with 70k on it and new Pertronix electronics in it. I simply went to HEI and I used a Proform, because I've had excellent luck with their products and customer service. The previous owner didn't eliminate the resistor wire and he used an OEM style, china coil.
> 
> A word on THAT!!! I searched high and low, for several months, about how to supply 12 volts for a modern ignition. I finally, simply ran a new wire off the "IGN" accessory port on my fuse block, in my 70 Vette, but my 67 GTO had no such location. So, I ultimately decided to eliminate the resistor wire and then run a new wire, however, in each case where I had read that advice, it was only partially correct. The resistor wire is only hot "in the run position (Ign 1)", so it absolutely needs a jumper off the "start position (ign 2)". I dug through my GM service manuals and I found tha Pontiac actually made a "jumper bar" which they installed on the ignition switch, in cars with CDI ignition. I was not able to find the bar to buy, so if you do eliminate the resistor wire at the bulkhead, you need to jump "Ign 2" into it, either in the engine bay, or behind the fuse block, which is where I did it.
> 
> I will sell the Pertronix cheap if you choose to go that route. I do keep my car as stock as possible, but I wont be going back to the old dizzy style.


is it necessary to replace the wires as well as the coil with the Pertronic units? I can understand the coil replacement but the upgrade to the wires seems to be upselling to me.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

deanhickey said:


> is it necessary to replace the wires as well as the coil with the Pertronic units? I can understand the coil replacement but the upgrade to the wires seems to be upselling to me.


I'm just going to give it a scientific guess... Bare in mind that it's 7am here and I havent had coffee yet... 

I'm sure the Pertronix works with stock wiring, because that's certainly how mine was. However, I also think that in order for the Pertronix to live up to its reputation and deliver HEI characteristics, it would need a hot coil to take advantage of it. I can tell you that my new 67 came from the previous owner without any beefed up wiring going to the Pertonix, and with an "old-school style" coil (but it was labeled a Flamethrower).

However... the car was (supposedly) in mint condition... with two seized universals, two blown axle bearings, an open rear where a posi was supposed to be, three missing control arm bushings, bad timing, no back brakes, a bad water pump, and the carb linkage hanging up on the DIY heat sheild. So basically, anything that I see "they did", I undo!

In my 35 years of messing with Pontiacs, the bolt-on performance improvements that stand out in my mind, are the addition of a hot coil and 8.8 plug wires. l put them on two Trans Ams, and they enabled the cars to spin the tires and chirp second. To me it's just like the rest of an engine build; if you want the full improvement of the mod, you need a tight dizzy, a great module, a quality cap with brass terminals, 8.8 wires, good plugs gapped at 45, a hot coil with quick recovery, and of course, 12 volts going to the coil.


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## deanhickey (Apr 6, 2015)

armyadarkness said:


> I'm just going to give it a scientific guess... Bare in mind that it's 7am here and I havent had coffee yet...
> 
> I'm sure the Pertronix works with stock wiring, because that's certainly how mine was. However, I also think that in order for the Pertronix to live up to its reputation and deliver HEI characteristics, it would need a hot coil to take advantage of it. I can tell you that my new 67 came from the previous owner without any beefed up wiring going to the Pertonix, and with an "old-school style" coil (but it was labeled a Flamethrower).
> 
> ...


That answers my question in full. you better get that coffee now


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Long days... 6am to 4pm in the salt mines, and then flashlights and mittens, working on the GTO from 4pm to 11pm.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

If you want the Flamethrower I'll dig it out and send pics. The one thing that the PO did right was to spend $6k on a solid engine build, which included the Pertronix.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I was curious about the coil that came on the car, so I looked it up. Apparently, it's not as bad as I thought it was... or is it? Maybe some creative advertising and marketing? I'm skeptikal that they're getting 40k volts out this, but I'm also not an electrical engineer. Plus, it says that it's got an internal resistor, so does that mean that it's running at 9volts, like an OEM resisted GTO coil? If Pertronix has found a way to sneak 40k volts out of a 9 volt, resistor wired, OEM mount format, then Holley, Accel, MSD, DUI, and thousands of us, have been seriously wasting our time making mounts and chasing wires.

Here's the Pertronix description:
While it’s the perfect coil to go with the PerTronix Ignitor breakerless ignition, our 40,000 volt Flame-Thrower canister coil can benefit virtually any distributor type inductive system. Its higher voltage allows largerspark plug gaps for added power, smoother response and better fuel economy. These coils are internally resisted so installation and wiring is drastically simplified. Our oil filled coils offer great heat control for street driven vehicles, while our epoxy filled coils provide superior winding support for high vibration environments in off-road vehicles and boats. 

Amazon reviewers seem to love it, however, they also claim that it added 50 HP and 20 mpg, so I'm buying TWO!


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## deanhickey (Apr 6, 2015)

Those are pretty steep claims by the reviewers, I believe it runs on 12 volts as everything I have read on them says to bypass the ballast resister. should be interesting to see how it works.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

deanhickey said:


> Those are pretty steep claims by the reviewers, I believe it runs on 12 volts as everything I have read on them says to bypass the ballast resister. should be interesting to see how it works.


I don't need 50 HP and 20 Mpg... I'd settle for a corned beef and swiss and an IPA, I'll have to keep reading and see if those are possible, too.


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## Machinest-guy (Jul 19, 2019)

Good morning, this is an interesting thread because I've been working with ignition systems for decades. Answers are out there but need testing to validate. 

Back in 1962 my dad built a transistor ignition for our families 1959 Cad from plans in Popular Mechanics magazine. Since that time I've worked on all sorts of ignitions, single points, dual points, single plug, dual plug, twin ignitions with dual distributors, and a couple of times with aircraft magnetos and motorcycle weird stuff. In the mid to late 1970's I bought a Sun Engine Analiser and shortly after that a Sun Distributor testing machine. Between using both machines for more than 40 years now, and a lot of reading, I believe I understand the following general rules. 

Voltage at the spark plug is a product of turns ratio in the coil vs. plug gap controlled by input voltage to the coil. If you run a 12 volt coil at 12 volts and it produces 40KV at the spark plug gap of .030 inch you'll likely get a usable spark. Usable defined as having enough power to ignite the fuel mixture when compressed and hot. However that spark has several characteristics that make discussion of effective or not ignition between different components difficult. One of them is power, which can be expressed as Watts or Joules. That isn't a typical advertising number but it is a critical factor.

The first task of an ignition system is to ionize a path of molecules between both electrodes. This takes voltage. Very high voltage. As high as you can get voltage. This is generally limited by insulation breaking down creating shorts to ground and moderated by spark plug gap. Because the gap is essentially an open circuit, in an ignition system, voltage which is potentially available in the coil winding magnetic field collapsing, rises until it jumps the gap completing the circuit or is drained off by insulation leaks to ground. Hence you can change the running voltage in your ignition system up or down by adjusting the gap wider or narrower. This is true for all ignition systems and leads to some cheats to improve performance and offers opportunity to make misleading advertising claims.

If you ran the ignition system first mentioned with a plug gap of .020 you'd likely find a system operating voltage 10K volts less than what you started with. Likewise if you increased the gap operational voltage would go up. We used to mess with voltage regulators on race cars so they would drive the alternator output up to 16 - 17 volts into the coil and get proportionately greater ionization voltage output from the coil. Sometimes we'd run 6 volt coils on 12 volts too. There is nothing sacred about coil voltage ratings. What burns coils out is drawing excessive power through them and overheating their internal insulation which then fails so they short out their windings internally causing a loss of turns ratio which drops output. As this breakdown and melting short happens most people would say "the coil is getting weak". The ballast resistor, or resistor wire in the Pontiac igintion loom, controls current flow preventing premature coil failure. It is bypassed by design for a higher starting (cranking) voltage which is then reduced for running.

Superior ignition wire insulation helps a great deal in getting available coil voltage to the spark plug. It is quite possible for ignition wires to get dirty, get wet, get old and cracked, or oil soaked and spongy which factors all cause loss of spark energy. It can be confusing to "fix" a "weak" coil with a new set of plug wires only to have the cars ignition fail again a few weeks later because the coil ionization voltage kept falling as the turns inside it continued to short. And then "fix" it with new spark plugs only to have that remedy fail as the coil continued to fail. Testing coil open circuit voltage with an Engine Analizer was, back then, the only way to hopefully isolate a failing coil. Although you can do this often times illuminating test some dark night. 

Run your engine at idle and open the hood. Stick you head in there at the darkest night possible and look at the ignition wires while a friend holds the hood as shut as possible. If you see pale blue sparks jumping and arcing along the wires you can be assured you need some upgrades there. Or mist some windex cleaner onto the wire set and cap. If you short out a cylinder that wire should be replaced. It won't work well in rain or fog. 

The second task of an ignition system is to provide enough power to ignite fuel mixture combustion. This spark voltage is substantially less than the ionization voltage. It is maybe a fifth to a tenth less. Spark energy follows the ionized path. The required spark voltage depends on the fuel being burnt. Gasoline is pretty easy to ignite compared to alcohol or propane. Nitro-methane is more difficult. To make more power available in the secondary high tension wires, larger primary wires are needed to create a stronger magnetic field. There is no substitute for copper wire and massive construction. Mallory and MSD were working on this problem in the 1970's with some truly big coil designs.

The third task of an ignition system is to maintain a spark long enough combustion within the chamber becomes self sustaining. Length of burn time is an engineering parameter modern technology has helped a lot. With breaker point ignition, burn time was directly related to dwell time that the coil could "charge up" which was directly related to the mechanical construction of the distributor lobes and breaker point arm pivot. It took "electronic ignition" systems where coil charge time became controlled by very fast switching semiconductors for coil output to reach modern standards for regularly firing combustion cycles. Many companies started to design successful multiple discharge ignition systems including OEM in the 1980's.

In my opinion Pertronix can be a cost effective upgrade. I have that system on my GTO and Corvette. I've installed many dozens of them over the years with good results in both 6 and 12 volt applications. I've run them on "stock class" race cars a few times. What that system gives you is improved firing signal to the coil and a bit longer coil saturation time so the spark kernel of flame gets a bit more energy to ignite the fuel. And when cars are stored for long periods of time, because they don't use a contact set (Breaker points), there is no oxidation resistance generated from sitting unused. 

The Pertronix brand coil is an interesting part. I don't know quite what to believe about it. Generally they are a few ounces heaver so I'd think the windings are more massive. Maybe. They don't put out significantly more ionization voltage for an apples to apples gap test. I can't test Joules produced. Sometimes if you took the lables off they are identical in appearance (except for paint) to OEM or Accell coils. But I can offer up this simple minded ignition test. 

Run your Pontiac engine at idle while watching the tach. Connect a battery charger as you normally would do. Turn it on and off to see if engine speed changes with a higher charging voltage the charger supplies. If it does your Pontiac will benefit from an ignition upgrade. If nothing changes you likely have enough power to get out of the driveway. Then redo the test at 4-5 thousand RPM. Same process, same diagnosis. It's fun to do, easy and cheap. Sometimes a Pertronix coil will help in this sort of test, sometimes not. I guess I should cut one open to see whats inside vs. a Delco. My preferred system is the large cap GM HEI system introduced in 1974ish by GM across their product lines including Pontiac. It too can be run at higher voltages....... but it won't run below 7.3 volts even if the car still cranks, and the module can burn out if left with the key on not running for a day or two.

I've also re-curved hundreds of distributors of all sorts. I can say with perfect honestly that 100% of the new aftermarket distributors I've seen in the last 10 -15 years are not anywhere close to being calibrated to their OEM specification, including some high dollar Corvette tach drive units, Mallory, Accel, and the China knockoffs mass marketed. Some of those advance curves were 30 - 40 degrees over advancing because of missing limit stops. Some have vague instructions to check it. Some have a few bits of spring and limit stops included but you have to do it yourself and then figure out how to test it. End thrust is never set properly which causes timing scatter because of the gear helix angle changing. But they are shinny bright new.

What a Pontiac timing curve should be is a complex discussion for another time.

I hope this helps clear some confusion up about Pertronix parts and what they do. Ladd


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Well said! Machinist guy,....Imuse the flamethrower on a Petronix igniter 2. Agree with your assessment on the newer dist, they are ok but everyone I see still needs curving. Of late they seem to have gotten a bit better on their centrifugal limits.

HEI’s are good units and lots of guys love them. They needed that bigger cap to widen out the area so the spark would not bleed over to the next contact.

A good strong coil is needed, I use the epoxy one, so I can mount it sideways,...generally when your ignition system is all correct and you view it on an oscilloscope it does not take 40,000 volts to jump the spark gap....of course that changes with load...

anyway thanks for all that great info.....


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## Machinest-guy (Jul 19, 2019)

Thanks LeMans Guy. My pleasure to rattle on about automotive history. On the HEI cap story..... it is true about spark arc between cap terminals can happen and that a large diameter cap reduces that issue. I was told by a GM training engineer there is more to it than that. And my wife's grandfather told me another part of how that big cap evolution occurred. 

From grandfather Ralph came: Many old school distributors and caps - pre WWII - needed to be "phased" so the cap's ignition terminal was aligned with the contact's set opening point. The contact opening point changed with ignition timing so part of your tune up process was to synchronize the cap with the points with the rotor so they all pointed to the same place at the same time. Large diameter caps were pretty common on many brands of pre-war cars, each dedicated to an ignition system and many to a single engine family.

The width of the terminal corresponded to the time a spark crossed that gap. If you wanted a bit more out of a system you could run a higher voltage coil or dual points and coils which gave a longer spark but needed a wider terminal to pass that current. You could make a wider terminal by puddling a bit of high temp soft solder around the caps terminal. When the engine was first started the rotor would mill the solder to a near zero gap and concentric with the distributor wobble. You'd take it back apart and clean out the chips and send the vehicle back into use. Grandfather Ralph was taught this by Mr Delco and Mr Remy who he knew personally when they visited him in conjunction with Ab Jenken's salt flat running of a race car named "Mormon Meteor" and other cars of various brands. Ralph was one of Ab's mechanics in Salt Lake. Ralph owned a garage there which was also the first Ford dealer in the Salt Lake valley. He knew Henry Ford the first with whom he made the deal for his dealership. Ab and Ralph had a working relationship racing with Pontiac in their later years. 

From the GM engineer: The firm of Delco Remy had a patent on the tab which located the cap on the housing and a "fixed pivot" style of breaker point that was easier to install (ever notice the hole in the breaker plate the pivot drops into ??). GM bought that patent so Ford and Chrysler were conflicted but also using that system a bit so it was in litigation for awhile. Hence Ford and Chrysler used clips to retain the cap with a slot to move the points pivot and GM used the hole with two bent screws. However, a few decades later, when the HEI system was designed as a universal system for many GM divisions, they realized corporate wide engine timing specifications would require a very broad range of initial ignition firing, hence many dedicated caps and housing combinations or stepping back to the old synchronization procedures. Instead of doing that they enlarged the cap and widened the terminal so no matter what combination of reluctor / rotor / initial timing / vacuum or mechanical timing modification was called for; that spark would absolutely hit a terminal on any engine it was used for. And it was cheap. And they eliminated the remote coil mounting issue and coil wires speeding vehicle assembly time. Ford copied the cap size on their Dura Spark system, but kept the clips even though the GM patent was long expired. 

Years later GM reduced the size of their cap once they narrowed down the corporate engine family eliminating many different timing combinations so they could save more than a few pennies on materials for this or that and the other. 

Thank you to Ralph Jensen and Henry Styres, automotive pioneers and dedicated craftsmen now pasted on for these first person stories.


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## deanhickey (Apr 6, 2015)

Machinest-guy said:


> Thanks LeMans Guy. My pleasure to rattle on about automotive history. On the HEI cap story..... it is true about spark arc between cap terminals can happen and that a large diameter cap reduces that issue. I was told by a GM training engineer there is more to it than that. And my wife's grandfather told me another part of how that big cap evolution occurred.
> 
> From grandfather Ralph came: Many old school distributors and caps - pre WWII - needed to be "phased" so the cap's ignition terminal was aligned with the contact's set opening point. The contact opening point changed with ignition timing so part of your tune up process was to synchronize the cap with the points with the rotor so they all pointed to the same place at the same time. Large diameter caps were pretty common on many brands of pre-war cars, each dedicated to an ignition system and many to a single engine family.
> 
> ...


Thank you for for the informative and very interesting post.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Machinest-guy said:


> Good morning, this is an interesting thread because I've been working with ignition systems for decades. Answers are out there but need testing to validate.
> 
> Back in 1962 my dad built a transistor ignition for our families 1959 Cad from plans in Popular Mechanics magazine. Since that time I've worked on all sorts of ignitions, single points, dual points, single plug, dual plug, twin ignitions with dual distributors, and a couple of times with aircraft magnetos and motorcycle weird stuff. In the mid to late 1970's I bought a Sun Engine Analiser and shortly after that a Sun Distributor testing machine. Between using both machines for more than 40 years now, and a lot of reading, I believe I understand the following general rules.
> 
> ...


I went to Napa on Saturday and asked for an HEI cap and rotor. The guy asked "for what"... It was my understanding that there was no variation on it, but he claimed that there was. Not sure how MSD and Accell sell them then.


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## Machinest-guy (Jul 19, 2019)

Good morning, my understanding of the acronym HEI is that it abbreviates the phrase "High Energy Ignition" which was GM's upgrade ignition system from an earlier Transistor Ignition system. Transistor Ignition was an upgrade from traditional breaker point ignition. Transistor Ignition was offered with Fuel Injecton engines and as a very limited stand alone special order option, I believe, from the mid / late 1950's for about a decade of time. Transistor Ignition conversion kits were also sold by Delco at GM dealers over the parts counter for aftermarket use. I don't know when those kits were discontinued.

Information presented at GM training centers starting in the mid 1970's advised technicians HEI system hallmarks were: a reluctor for creating a timing signal, a module to process that signal with both voltage and current control to the coil , and an internal coil mounted in the cap. The rotor was matched to the cap size. Both the cap and rotor were made of specific improved material with high resistance to electrical burn through. Special silicon based material of larger diameter was used for the ignition wire sets. 

This system was designed for use across virtually all of GM's engines so came in 4, 6, and 8 cylinder versions. Back then, and now, asking for an HEI cap or rotor simply eliminated consideration of older ignition system parts from the newer system parts groups, but did not say what engine (number of cylinders) the parts needed to replace. 

Thus the Napa partsman could have been trying to determine if you needed parts for a 4,6, or 8 cylinder engine equipped with a HEI system. I'm pretty sure both Accell and MSD currently support the 6 and 8 cylinder versions of HEI systems. I've not paid enough attention to 4 cylinder GM engines to know offhand what aftermarket support exists for them today. I believe the Cosworth Vega was sold new with an OEM HEI ignition and that engine in regular production also received HEI systems, including versions of the car sold throught the Pontiac division. 

Best regards, Ladd


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

No, he was definitely speaking on the subject with authority... Claiming that various caps would be clocked differently. They know me well and they know that I had converted my GTO. In fact, I specifically requested a cap for a 77 Trans Am 400, because of course, I knew that they would never find one for a 67 GTO. I was just curious... It didn't make sense to me... Knowing that number one could go anywhere that you liked, why would they make varying units.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

Rock Auto or Summit


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## deanhickey (Apr 6, 2015)

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## chuckdh3 (Feb 6, 2020)

Wow lots of info on this post and really not much to add except my recent experience. My concourse gold 68 Convertible that I have owned for 37 years is %95 numbers matching except for a few items like the distributor and starter that I stupidly swapped out before I knew better. (I now have the correct dated distributor in hand that will now stay with the car) The car had been sitting for 10 years and its show days are over for me so I have decided to drive it some while I am still able. Because it wasn't the correct distributor anyway I swapped out the stock points distributor with a Pertronix IiI and Flamethrower III coil. I opened up the plugs to .40 and can not believe the difference that it makes in starting, smooth idle and the plugs still look new. The stock looking Pertronix coil has so much power that while I was moving some wires around I forgot to plug the coil wire back in. I had no clue until it died going around a corner a few days later. It ran great because the coil had still been firing across a 1" gap to the coil wire and it burnt the top off the coil tower. I plugged it back in and it got me home fine. The date coded wires were also hard so I replaced them with a set of Taylor made that I custom fit to the OEM separators. The red accent of the rally 2 caps and fender emblems looks great against the Springmist Green so of course they had to be red.


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## Machinest-guy (Jul 19, 2019)

Good evening once more. I'd susgest it may be interesting to speak with the Napa parts man again to figure out what he is thinking. Clearly he had something about this HEI system on his mind we don't understand. Ladd


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Machinest-guy said:


> Good evening once more. I'd susgest it may be interesting to speak with the Napa parts man again to figure out what he is thinking. Clearly he had something about this HEI system on his mind we don't understand. Ladd


I think sometimes, they just don't want to be bothered with old cars


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## deanhickey (Apr 6, 2015)

deanhickey said:


> 1970 Pontiac GTO Firebird Trans Am Ram Air Distributor Original GM | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 1970 Pontiac GTO Firebird Trans Am Ram Air Distributor Original GM at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> ...


and it is on sale down at $784.79!
on a more serious note I plan to by an eBay distributor 60-80 price range and rebuild it stock, mostly just to learn how to do it. long term is to go with Pertronics kit for the original list with coil and wires. I will come back and update the post with my results. Thanks for all the input and valuable information. One last question on rebuild kits what are the better quality brands, and should I go with a steel or brass gear on the bottom. the engine has a new cam. (068)?


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

NO BRASS! Just reuse your old one if it has no signs of wear.


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## Machinest-guy (Jul 19, 2019)

I've bought bits from these fellows and from Long Island Corvette supply to overhaul distributors after GM obsoleted almost all parts for them. https://www.corvettecentral.com/c2-63-67/ignition-distributor/distributor-rebuild-parts/?count=45

With some fussing most of these parts can be made to work ok. The bushings need to be reamed after they are installed with a very long industrial electric motor reamer so they come out concentric to the same center-line. A reamer like this can work Reamers Model MB - Expansion Reamer Motor Bearing Reamers with Floating Pilot Seeve Made in USA
Getting new breaker plates was hard. They wear in the center where they ride on the top shaft bushing then wobble at different RPMs. I agree with O52 about the gears. Or let your cam grinder tell you what he wants there. The dist gear *must *be compatible with the cam gears metal structure. There are composite gears out there which I've never tried which may give you a wider application window if you don't know what the cam is.
Good luck. Ladd


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

I rebuilt the top end of my original distributor with parts from a Corvette vendor. The upper and lower bushings were still in good condition and didn't need replacing. Top end very easy to rebuild. 

This Corvette shop will rebuild yours for a decent price.








Ignition Parts & Rebuilding


We offer Distributor rebuilding Typical $189 Labor plus parts needed We completely restore the housing, put in new bushings if needed , Install new parts (large selection of NOS Tune up parts...



www.corvettestop.com


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## Machinest-guy (Jul 19, 2019)

I knew these guys in the beginning days of Corvette Stop. Went to High School with Bob and did some work for both Drew and his dad. I did a few things for them to prep parts for sale through Dave Herlinger Corvette Repair who rebuilt all the rear ends and suspension arms they sold. And I knew a couple of their early employees, Kirk and Glen. I see Bob and Kirk once a year for lunch, maybe more often with some of the other car guys from High School days who have now semi-retired like me. We all think Bob did really well with his business concept, which just may have started with a Pontiac engine in a GMC panel van which got traded a few cars later for a Firebird Trans Am, then later into Corvettes. I just talked to Glen today about his Cad hot rod. Small world. Fun cars. Haven't seen Drew for ages. I'm sure Drew will help you the best he can. Ladd


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