# How to clone a '65 Lemans into a GTO



## vbaron21 (Jan 28, 2010)

i figured this would be the best place to ask,

Besides the obvious hood and logos, what needs to be done to a '65 lemans to make it into AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE GTO?

also, will a 400 fit into the 326 engine mounts? 

any help would be greatly apperciated

Thank You


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

Maybe Rukee would like to field this one. "Clone" a '65?


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## vbaron21 (Jan 28, 2010)

wow. if thats serious, ok, "turn into", "add", "change into" what do you want me to say?

i thought i explained myself halfway decently......

if your complaining about the title

how about "how to make a GTO clone out of a '65 Lemans" ? happy???

:shutme


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

The 400 will mount right in the bay. Pontiac had the forethought to make all the engine dimensions the same for the 326-455 and the accessories will go on any of them.
Yes, "cloning" a GTO is a worn subject on most boards as there are probably as many of them as real GTO's around now.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

What's REALLY getting hard to find is a real '65 LEMANS!!! Cloned GTOS are like cloned SS El Camino's: they're a dime-a-dozen. Put a 400 in it, fix it up, and keep it a LeMans. A Lemans has the same nice interior, most mechanicals, and level of quality. Plus, you just don't SEE them all the time.


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## topfuel67 (Dec 23, 2008)

Be careful with the 400 swap in the 65. It doesn't all fit. The timing chain cover on the 65-66 are different so the accessories mount different. 67-72 all interchange fine. The 400s after 72 came in 2 different configs, one fits the 65, one doesn't. The 400s from 67-72 will mount fine, but be sure to get all the accessories. You won't be able to line the belts up easily using 65 accessories on a 400.

I had bought a 73 400 for my 65 Tempest and after going through the head ache of getting all the right parts, found a gread deal on a 65 389 from a catalina. The 389s from the catalina's had better heads than the gtos. Same compression, slightly bigger exhaust valve. I'd recommend finding a 65 389 from a "Big Car." or a 1965 421 if you can find one, but they're usually pricey.

As far as cloning...Just stick a GTO hood on and leave the badges off. Go with a nice clean resto mod. Fill all the emblem holes and have a nice clean smooth car.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

The hood is different, the tail panel, the emblems, the seat patterns are different, dash emblem and grab handle, grill.......I'm sure I'm missing something else here...


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The Lemans seat pattern is identical to the GTO, as is the tailpanel, on a '65. The door panels are the same except for the emblem. Change the grab-bar lucite and two emblems on the doors, and you have a GTO interior. The Tempest has a different seatr and tailpanel. More ribs on the back panel and plain seats. The information about the Catalina heads, above, I do not agree wiith. GTO's of this era had 421 spec heads, with the biggest valves available. The main difference between "big car" and GTO heads was chamber size and, sometimes valve size: big car heads had the same size, and in some cases, smaller valves. GTO'a in this era always had the biggest valve heads.


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## vbaron21 (Jan 28, 2010)

Thanks for the help so far!




geeteeohguy said:


> What's REALLY getting hard to find is a real '65 LEMANS!!! Cloned GTOS are like cloned SS El Camino's: they're a dime-a-dozen. Put a 400 in it, fix it up, and keep it a LeMans. A Lemans has the same nice interior, most mechanicals, and level of quality. Plus, you just don't SEE them all the time.


i was considering this, but once i have the 400 in there, why not go all the way into a GTO? i mean i would be so close.....

and as for the other engine options go, i will be putting a re-manufactured engine in there. i want it to be CLEAN


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## BillGTO (Oct 16, 2009)

I too would like to suggest that you keep it a LeMans. There are too few of them around. In September I attended a cruise night featuring Pontiacs, and next to me was a Lemans with a 326 4 speed in original colors, And did it draw a crowd. Besides, even a 326 modded slightly can offer decent performance. Just my opinion.


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## crustysack (Oct 5, 2008)

funny and touchy thread here a 65 GTO was purely an option package on the Lemans . so if you add all the trim items a GTO option called for then your Lemans IS a GTO except with PHS. purists will say if it wasnt born a GTO then BLAH BLAH BLAH. I say whatever its your car do what you want as long as you do not try to sell it as a true GTO sometime later on down the line- keep it as a Lemans??/ ya ok !!! if yu are going to compete in concours resto shows then sure but if you are just building this car for yourself do whatever you want. back to the question -- switch Pontiac emblem from front grill, get gto hood and scoop, remove louvers from front quarter, some lemans had this but some did not but all GTOs have the beltline trim and "A" piller stainless trim, the GTO interior emblems( door, grab bar) in the engine bay a 7 bladed fan, and dual exhaust for certain.


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## topfuel67 (Dec 23, 2008)

geeteeohguy said:


> ...The information about the Catalina heads, above, I do not agree wiith. GTO's of this era had 421 spec heads, with the biggest valves available. The main difference between "big car" and GTO heads was chamber size and, sometimes valve size: big car heads had the same size, and in some cases, smaller valves. GTO'a in this era always had the biggest valve heads.


I had got that info from wallacracing.com. That site listed the #77 GTO heads as 1.60/1.92 valves and the #76 Big car heads as 1.66/1.92. Just looked in the 65 Pontiac Tempest shop manual and it lists the GTO heads as 1.657-1.663/1.92. So much for that site. 

Looks like the main difference is the cam. The lower hp got the 66 cam (big cars), 4bbl GTO got the 67 cam and the h.o. got the 68 cam.

I still say the Big car 389s are a great deal. You can pick them up for next to nothing and with an after market cam and manifold are just as good as a GTO motor.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

You can't realy tell the diffrence between the 326 and the 400 by looks. You could drop a 400 in there and tell everyone it's a 326. Unless they run the #s (which no-one has done on mine in over 16 yrs) they will never know.


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## jbranontn (Sep 4, 2008)

*Leep it a LeMans*

I have a 66 Tempest and everyone bugs me all the time saying I should "clone it" into a GTO.....It ain't gonna happen.....Born a Tempest....she'll die a Tempest.....With all the "cloning" the real deal Tempest are becoming more rare....Just my personal preference.....:cool


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

jbranontn said:


> I have a 66 Tempest and everyone bugs me all the time saying I should "clone it" into a GTO.....It ain't gonna happen.....Born a Tempest....she'll die a Tempest.....With all the "cloning" the real deal Tempest are becoming more rare....Just my personal preference.....:cool


I haven't seen you post here in quite a while. I thought you had sold the car on ebay ? 
You're Tempest Custom looks great. The GTO hood is a nice addition without the perception of cloning.


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## jbranontn (Sep 4, 2008)

The hood was on the car when I got it....Anyone know if you could get the Tempest from factory with that hood as an option...guy I got car from swore it came that way?:cheers




Too Many Projects said:


> I haven't seen you post here in quite a while. I thought you had sold the car on ebay ?
> You're Tempest Custom looks great. The GTO hood is a nice addition without the perception of cloning.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

From all that I have read and heard, the only way to get the GTO hood as an option was to check off the GTO option on the order form. Lots of people back in the day put GTO hoods on Tempests and Lemans' when you could pick them up for $15 at a wrecking yard. I saw it done more than once in the '70's. Checking off "GTO" on the option sheet was only something like $385 more over the standard Lemans when these cars were new.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

LOL $385.00 was a 10% increase at least.


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## Gran Turismo (Jan 12, 2010)

Clones / tributes! There are more Mopar clones in the Uk than I care to look at' including Pontiacs but not so many.
point is a car is only original once so should be kept that way' especially now in these modern times to save history of motoring. Its great to see a genuine Lemans in its true state over messed around with cars. This it what makes a proper sorted example over the majority of non origianl or modded examples around today. I see it so many times good original cars getting ruined by people going for big blocks and gaining no more speed than an original small block well tuned. I think each to their own but I suppose the real correct stuff will only get rarer. Forward thinking.


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## thewingworks (Apr 28, 2010)

BillGTO said:


> I too would like to suggest that you keep it a LeMans. There are too few of them around. In September I attended a cruise night featuring Pontiacs, and next to me was a Lemans with a 326 4 speed in original colors, And did it draw a crowd. Besides, even a 326 modded slightly can offer decent performance. Just my opinion.


Hello to all, I am a new~bee here, if any of you cloners have a tempest one piece grill for 65' I would love to here from you, must be in GREAT shape, I have a clone and want to return it back to the lemans that it was bore to be, thanks and happy motoring.


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

I have a Tempest grille in decent shape, and I need the grille surround for a GTO. It could use some elbow grease but it isnt beat up or broken. Also have the filler panel, it needs a bit of work but I can handle that no problem, where you located wingworks? I can get pics of it if you are interested.


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