# 65 GTO VIN plate attachment



## 65GTONC (Feb 29, 2020)

Having a difficult time titling 65 GTO in North Carolina which requires inspection for theft or fraud. Car has been in family since 1969 and restored within past 10 years. Inspector says VIN tag for my year/model should be soldered and I have rosette rivets. VIN on frame covered from resto. I think inspector is wrong but cannot find authoritative source to confirm that rivets are correct. ANY HELP? Thank you!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

65GTONC said:


> Having a difficult time titling 65 GTO in North Carolina which requires inspection for theft or fraud. Car has been in family since 1969 and restored within past 10 years. Inspector says VIN tag for my year/model should be soldered and I have rosette rivets. VIN on frame covered from resto. I think inspector is wrong but cannot find authoritative source to confirm that rivets are correct. ANY HELP? Thank you!


Sounds like an idiot. Take it to another inspection center.
Rosette Rivets are correct. Soldered? Never heard of any VIN soldered on.

VIN is rivetted to the left front (driver's door) pillar. If a GTO optioned car, it will show the "5N" on the firewall data plate.

Your previous title/registration card from the earlier owner should match the VIN? 
Get the PHS documents for your car which is the original build sheet and history. It will have the VIN so as to verify.

The car also has a partial VIN, usually the last 8 digits, on the driver's side frame rail just past the wheel arch a couple inches back. It may be on top of the rail as most seem to be here. My '68 is on the side and easy to access. You may have to scrape and clean a lot of crud off to see it and a mirror may be needed to view it to appease the inspector.

The GTO Association of America puts out a guide that shows the diagram of the VIN and rosette rivets for the 1965, along with how to decode the VIN. GTOAA Pontiac GTO/GT37 Illustrated Identification Guide


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## 65GTONC (Feb 29, 2020)

Thank you PontiacJim! All my paperwork matches and I have PHS documentation. I am gathering info to prepare for a dispute. This is me against the NC DMV! I want to prove that rivets are correct to put an end to this nonsense.


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## 65GTONC (Feb 29, 2020)

Reaching out to GTO nation again - anyone know where to get manufacturer's manuals? NC inspector says they utilize the GM manual, which states that 1965 GTO VIN plate would be "spot welded". Based on this, they reject rosette rivets as original to the car. They do not share manual or info, so trying to authenticate rosette rivets with something from the manufacturer.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

65GTONC said:


> Reaching out to GTO nation again - anyone know where to get manufacturer's manuals? NC inspector says they utilize the GM manual, which states that 1965 GTO VIN plate would be "spot welded". Based on this, they reject rosette rivets as original to the car. They do not share manual or info, so trying to authenticate rosette rivets with something from the manufacturer.


OK, did a little deeper digging on the internet. I am corrected. I found that the 1961-1965 VIN tags are indeed spot welded. 

* VIN Tag ID (1961 to 1965)*

It has come to my attention with a recent purchase of a 1964 Catalina convertible, that cars can have serious VIN tag problems. My tag had been riveted on. Close inspection of all my other Pontiacs revealed a spot welded tag as shown in the photo below. When I PHS'd the car, it came back as a 1964 Bonneville 2 door hardtop, although the title just said "1964 Pontiac 2 door". I went back three previous owners and still could not find when or where the VIN changes. The point here is that you MUST inspect the tag for signs of tampering. If it has rivets, it's wrong. There are portions of the VIN number in your drip rail for your trunk, usually on the drivers side. There is also the complete VIN stamped on the top of the frame at the driver's side rear past the rear end. These are only accessible with a mirror and usually require acid to remove the years of rust and dirt. If the numbers don't match, then move on quickly. My advise to you it that, if it has rivets, you'd better check it out. I have heard of cars being seized by State officals and being either returned to their rightful owners or crushed, as the car was stolen years earlier, with the last owner having no rights whatsoever.

Here is the website: VIN Tag ID (1961 to 1965) | Pontiac Paradise

However, I have a 1965 GTO VIN plate and it has a hole stamped on each end, no spot rivets. So it may be possible that not all assembly plants spot welded OR, there could have been a point in production, perhaps near the end, that the rivets were used as the changeover to 1966 was nearing. This also may only have applied to the full size cars and not the Tempest?

Read Post #10 of this topic which may explain why my VIN tag has the 2 stamped (like die stamped - perfect holes) holes in the ends. Vin tag rivets

I would contact PHS and see if you can get an answer, and the GTO Association of America.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

Late 64 was the crossover from welded to riveted VIN plates. All 65 A bodies were riveted after Dec 64. There were also round rivets and rosette rivets.

showthread.php

showthread.php


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## Jerry H. (Mar 19, 2020)

O52 said:


> Late 64 was the crossover from welded to riveted VIN plates. All 65 A bodies were riveted after Dec 64. There were also round rivets and rosette rivets.
> 
> showthread.php
> 
> showthread.php


Agreed. Of the dozens of early GTO's I've owned, only the 64's had the welded on VIN plates. 65 and newer had rivets.

And by the way, make SURE the VIN plate is on where it can be read from top to bottom from the outside of the car. Ask me how I know.


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## 65GTONC (Feb 29, 2020)

VIN oriented correctly. How do you know Jerry H?

All good information but back to my original dilemma. How do I prove that rosette rivets are correct for my model when inspector is referencing "the GM manual" (unclear what he means by this) that says otherwise? Looking for source that can certify.

Last resort is pulling car off frame and uncovering stamped VIN. Cannot read with mirror at this point. believe it was painted over. Is this difficult? (Obviously all new to me!)


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## Jerry H. (Mar 19, 2020)

65GTONC said:


> VIN oriented correctly. How do you know Jerry H?
> 
> All good information but back to my original dilemma. How do I prove that rosette rivets are correct for my model when inspector is referencing "the GM manual" (unclear what he means by this) that says otherwise? Looking for source that can certify.
> 
> Last resort is pulling car off frame and uncovering stamped VIN. Cannot read with mirror at this point. believe it was painted over. Is this difficult? (Obviously all new to me!)


I bought a 65 GTO several years ago that had undergone a frame off restoration. After I had owned it for over 10 years, I decided to sell it at one of the major action houses. When I get the car onsite they have a retired State Officer that inspects the car. He is very cordial, but advises me that the VIN plate was probably installed incorrectly (being able to be read from the inside of the car, not the outside) during reassembly of the restoration. Then he checked the VIN stamped on the frame rail. It did NOT match! After discussion with top auction personnel they allowed the car to be auctioned with the term 'restoration frame' listed on the card on the windshield. 

Although some early 65's may have 'welded on' VIN plates, they are not common. Not sure what 'GM Manual' they are referencing, but it's possible that it's a document that was issued at the very beginning of the model year. Someone else has posted that all cars built after December had rivets. Since the model year started in September 64, it's possible that those early cars had the welded on plates and later cars had rivets.

You might post this over on the PY boards. Lots of good information and informed guys there.


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

Mt 64 s both had the VIN welded 

This website shows a 65 plate that is rosstte riveted. Not sure why.. I was under the impression they were ALL spot welded.









Blue 1965 LeMans Hardtop - UltimateGTO.com


Here's a shot of the VIN plate found on the door pillar on Ron's blue 1965 LeMans hardtop. The 035 is the dealer date stamp. The rest is decoded as: 2=Pontiac, 37=LeMans series, 37=hardtop coupe, 5 is model year 1965, Z



ultimategto.com


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

Maybe different plants attached them differently ?


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

Linden Green 1967 GTO Hardtop - UltimateGTO.com


Yep, it is a GTO. The VIN plate shows those important first four numbers for a GTO - 242.



ultimategto.com





This 67 shows rosette rivets


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

I think it possible that they could be welded or riveted. More reseach will be needed. The pictures that show riveted look original, and they have the rosette style rivets.
Like I said , both of my 64s had them weleded , as do most 64 s I remember


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

This one looks riveted...










1965 Pontiac GTO GTO | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 1965 Pontiac GTO GTO at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


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## integrity6987 (May 10, 2017)

This is not "the final word" - but interesting article from Nov 2010 "The Legend" - club magazine for GTOAA. page 18.
Highly recommend joining.


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## 65GTONC (Feb 29, 2020)

Thanks everyone!!! Very helpful. Looks like there was a change in late '64. My car is 3rd week of December out of Pontiac so on the cusp. Although the state has not rejected the VIN as original (yet), I'll be armed with good support. They will probably make me uncover frame numbers to validate - because they can


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## jcayers58 (Nov 13, 2019)

O52 said:


> Late 64 was the crossover from welded to riveted VIN plates. All 65 A bodies were riveted after Dec 64. There were also round rivets and rosette rivets.
> 
> showthread.php
> 
> showthread.php


My


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