# 67 Lemans coil



## gcstone (Jan 19, 2015)

I have only had my 67 Lemans 326 for a few months and am still in the process of fixing it up but it is a good driving project. It was running fine until now it won't start. It started running rough and stalled completely. When checking for the cause I found a large crack in the side of the distributor cap. I had previously changed the dist, cap and rotor. I changed the cap, rotor and points and it still would not start. I found it was not getting a spark at the plugs. I tested the coil and found no spark coming from the coil. I checked and verifed that I had 12 volts to coil. I went ahead and changed the coil anyways and still no spark from the coil. Any ideas?


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

It takes 25,000 volts for the spark to jump 1 ". You might have some resistor wires that are eating too much of your voltage. This is how I would test it:

Take your distributor cap off so you can see the points. Move the engine by hand so the points are closed. Take a solid non resistor wire, like a normal house hold electrical wire and connect one end to the coil output. Take the other end of the wire and wrap it around a spark plug that is out of the cylinder and lay the spark plug on the engine block. Take you finger or screw driver and manually move the points to open and close them( wiggle the points back and forth). When you open the points you should see an arc on the points and you should see a spark jump off the spark plug and zap the engine block. Also make sure your plug is less than 10,000 ohms. The less the better.


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## gcstone (Jan 19, 2015)

Hi Roger, thanks for responding. I tried your test and yes I do get a spark at both the points and the plug.


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

So that means your primary side of the coil and distributor check out. So your problem must be on the secondary side (the high voltage). It could be a combination of coil to distributor wire, the spark plug wires, and your plugs if you are using resistor plugs. Add too much resistance through all those items and there is not enough voltage to jump at the plugs.

I would do this test. Coil to distributor wire should have a resistance of 5000 ohms or less (I would just put a solid core wire there if it was my car). The spark plugs wires vary in length so their resistance will vary as well but in my opinion good strong spark plug wires should have a resistance of 7000 ohms or less. Measure each wire. And then you have the spark plugs. I bought some new AC Delco plugs not to long ago that new out of the box was close to 10,000 ohms. To me 10,000 ohms is the time to throw them away. I like to see less than 5000 ohms per plug. 

Resistor wire resistance increase over time and I would say it is a combination of all the things I just mentioned.

Measure them and see what you get. New plugs and wires might be the answer.


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## gcstone (Jan 19, 2015)

Okay, today I gaped and replaced all the plugs. I measured ohms in the plugs and they were all just under 7k. I measured ohms in all wires, coil to dist 3.8k, wire 1= 7.85, 2= 6.5k, 3= 7.1k, 4= 6.5k,5= 5.5k, 6= 5.9k, 7= 5.5k, 8= 5.0k. Still will not start.:frown2:


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

OK. Lets test the dwell angle. When you manually turned the engine over so the points will close and used your finger to get a spark, your finger or if you used the screwdriver was acting like the distributor cam which opens and closes the points.

Go back and do the first test from post number 2 but this time use the longest spark plug wire that you have for your car and lay the spark plug on the engine block and the other end of the plug wire going directly to the coil. Turn the ignition switch to on (I left that part out in post number 2 but you figured it out) and manually move the points again like you did in the 1st test. See if you have the spark at the points and at the plug (this is checking the resistance level as well. Make sure the plug has a nice blue arc to it not a weak yellow arc.

If all checks out. Then do the same test with someone turning over the engine using the electrical starter while you are watching the plug and see if you still get the plug to zap the engine block. This will test if your points are opening enough. You need around 30 degress of dwell angel for a V8.

Let us know what you find with these test.


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## gcstone (Jan 19, 2015)

Okay, I attached a spark plug to the longest wire and the coil and I got a good blue spark at the plug, I had to play with the points gap first. I reassembled everything and gave it a try. It did not start, but it tried, it sputtered a few times before it died. We are on the right track!


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

Timing test: With the distributor cap on take the number 1 spark plug out and lay it on the engine block. The spark plug wire is going to the distributor cap this time. Have someone crank the engine while you put your thumb over the empty spark plug hole for the number 1 cylinder (driver's side closest to the front of the car location). Everytime you feel compression from the piston (tries to blow your thumb off the hole) you should see your spark plug laying on the engine zap. This will test if you spark plug is firing roughly in time or if it is even firing at all. It takes 2 revolutions of the rotor cap to fire that one plug once.

Make sure you have you plug wires in the correct location on the dist cap going to the correct cylinder(pic). You can also take the cap off and watch the rotor cap turn when someone is trying to start the car with your thumb on the number 1 piston. As you feel the compression, the rotor button should be pointing to the car's steering wheel. 

It sounds like the timing might be retarded. Do this test. With all the plugs and wires connected spray some starting fluid in the carb while trying to start it. If the car starts to knock and make strange noises your timing is too advanced. If it is coughing and trying to start (sound like your situation) your timing is retarded.

The distributor turns counter clockwise on Pontiac's so moving distributor clockwise will advanced your timing.

It is possible the timing chain jumped a tooth as well.


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

If your number 1 spark plug is firing and you have a timing light you should be able to see your timing while someone is cranking the engine. Looking for 6 degress BTDC.


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## gcstone (Jan 19, 2015)

I pulled plug #1 and kept it on the wire and placed it against the engine with my other thumb on the hole. My son cranked the engine and I saw spark in sync with the cylinder pressure. I replaced the plug and wire. I couldn't believe it but it started, a little rough but it was running. I turned the dist a bit and it smoothed out somewhat. I went to get my timing light and it died before I returned. It ran for a total of about a minute. When We tried to start it again it only sputtered and spit gas vapor from the carb. Now it will not start at all. Yes I still see spark. Yes the wires are in correct order. Yes I do have fuel flow. I disconnected the fuel line and verified fuel is flowing when the engine is cranked.


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

I think you have the ignition problem solved. Fuel/Air sounds like the next step. It sounds like your carb is flooding. You might have a float that is dropping with a pinhole, dirt in the needle and seat, over choking. 

If it is flooding try starting the car with the flooded procedure: As you are trying to start it push the thottle all the way to the floor and hold it there while you continue cranking. If it tries to start and that is all it does (meaning it won't start or it dies very quickly) then you have too much fuel in the equation.

If it is over choking you can put a clothes pin on the airhorn preventing the choke plate from closing all the way to test that theory as well.

I'm not sure what carb you have. I know the Rochester 2G series well, but others on the forum might have some suggestions now that we have the spark problem solved.


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

Some other things to look at. I would take the timing light while attempting to start the engine and verify your around the 6 degrees of timing, make sure your dist did not move on you while you were going to get the timing light.

Look into the carb and make sure you don't see fuel pooling or dripping onto the top of the throttle blades.

Make sure you have no air leaks from the thottle body or the carb's halves (make sure all bolts, nuts, and screws are tight on the carb and base).

Are you running ethanol fuel? If so try to put some non ethanol fuel in the carb/tank. Ethanol fuel in certain atmospheric conditions can draw moisture into the fuel.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

You're on the right track. You've got fuel, but do you have ENOUGH fuel? Get a smal funnel or a pressure bulb and fill the carburetor through the bowl vent on top. If it runs for a bit then dies again, check for a restriction in the line between the pump and the carb, like the filter in the carb inlet housing (if it's a QJet), or a fuel pump that's just barely working.

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

OK....reading the posts, it sounds to me like you need to set the dwell angle of the contact points. You need a dwell meter to do this. Without the dwell set at 30 degrees, everything else you're doing would be a complete waste of time. Dwell needs to be set before ignition timing can be set, and before the carb and be adjusted. It is the foundation of your engine tune-up. You indicated that you 'fiddled' with the points and got spark, but did you set them to specification with a dwellmeter?


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## gcstone (Jan 19, 2015)

Okay, hear is what I did today. I attempted to start the car again and it did start but ran rough for about 30 seconds and refused to start again. Yes I disconnected the fuel line just before the carb and I do have good fuel flow. I have an Edelbrock 1406. I turned the mixture screws out 1 1/2 turns. 
Roger, I inspected the carb mounting and it is good and tight, no leaks. GTO, I have a dwell meter on order, it should be here in a day or two, at no cost thanks to Autozone rewards! Bear, do you know much about the 1406? Also I just thought you might like to know I have the protect o plate to the car and it was originally sold in Garland TX. Any other ideas? If not I will let you know when I get the Dwell meter. Thanks for the help.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

The gang has you on the right track GC. That dwell has to be set to have reliable spark. You can also move the timing, once dwell is set. You said it responded smoother. you can advance it a little more, try 10 or 12. just to get it running. It won't be too much. I run 26 degrees Before Top Dead Center at idle on my 326. 10 from the mechanical setting and 16 on the vacumn advance can. Runs smooth as silk. You will get it.
Compression, Spark with correct Dwell, fuel with right mixture....and timing.


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

It sounds like your running out of gasoline. Do Bear's suggestion, as it starts to die add some more fuel to the carb via a bottle or spray starting fluid, to see if it tries to keep running. If your carb's bowl is running of fuel after the engine dies, try pushing the accelerator pump multiple times and see if you get two streams of fuel spraying into the venturi. If your fuel bowl is dry you might get one spray but not multiple tries.

Try your dwell angle with your new meter. Just from my experience, the dwell accuracy is more important at higher rpms than lower, even if it is off it should still idle if your getting a spark. 30 degress of dwell is around .022" with a feeler gauge.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

GC, you sure hot some solid advice from Roger That, he took a lot of time getting you there, you are almost there. I am just building on all the previous ideas. RT is right about fuel, even an improperly "Choked" carb can act just like you are describing, hard to start.

If you make sure you have fuel, by pumping the accelerator and watching it squirt in, or staring fluid and you have it choked......especially in cold weather and your timing and spark are there it will fire. A more advanced spark fires a leaner mixture, so that can help as well.

Here is how I start my 326 easy in winter. I halfway pump the pedal twice. That does two things, it sets the choke closed by releasing it and it pumps two squirts of gas into the intake. Then I put on my sunglasses, seatbelt, get my garage door opener etc. in other words I wait one minute. For the gas to settle as vapor into the intake and sit over the valves, then crank and fires right up.

If you don't wait the minute, you might not get as easy a start. So what I am saying is that closing the choke properly and squirting fuel both must occur, after spark is right....a little advanced timing might keep it running a few minutes. then you can get it where you want it.

:Scottwax1::Scottwax1:


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## gcstone (Jan 19, 2015)

Thanks for all the help guys. It may be a couple of days before I can play with my car again, unfortunately other priorities. I will let you know when I am back at it and what I find. Lemans Guy, nice car! I added a pic of my car so you guys can see what you are helping me with.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Two tone is awesome....is that a 326HO engine?


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## gcstone (Jan 19, 2015)

No, basic 326, previous owner added an edelbrock manifold and 1406 carb, other than that it is pretty stock, with white vinyl top. Once its up and running again I am ready for paint.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The first thing that needs to be done, before doing _another thing_, is to set the dwell to specs. The OP said he's going to do this. Messing with the fuel and carb is a waste of time until then.


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## gcstone (Jan 19, 2015)

Okay guys, I'm back. So I got the dwell meter. When I start the car and it runs rough the dwell does show 30. After running for 30 seconds or less it refuses to start again. I checked the fuel flow and can see it squirt in and even tried starter spray It will not start. I verified I do have spark at the plug and timing is set a 6 btdc. Unfortunately, I'm not a mechanic, I only know enough to be dangerous. I'm sure I am missing something and it is probable simple and right in front of me! Any more ideas?


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

Just after the engine quits, pull some spark plugs out and see if they are wet looking (flooding).


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## gcstone (Jan 19, 2015)

Okay, sorry it has taken 2 weeks, just have a lot going on right now. I checked the plugs after it died and yes they are wet.


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

Sounds like your carb is flooding the engine. I would take the airhorn off which should contain your floats, needles, and seats. See if you floats has a pin hole leak by doing this test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wUhlhsfOxs Check your float level and drop (you might need a rebuild kit that has the info on how many inches the float drops/level) or search the web for your carb info.

Also check your needle and seat for security and conditon. You can buy a kit to replace these as well.


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