# 67 GTO - First Post - (with pictures and questions...)



## 1967-GTO (Mar 15, 2012)

Hi everybody,

In the 90s, when I was in high school, I inherited a 1967 GTO from my grandpa, who liked to collect and rebuild classic cars. Yes, I got really lucky and ended up with a great car. 

It had about 75k miles on it, and I was told the original engine had been "totally rebuilt" (without details). I drove it during high school for about two years -- to and from school and around town, etc. Never had any big problems. I had to have the clutch replaced. Beyond that, I tried to teach myself how to take care of it. I gave it oil/filter changes and rotated the tires, etc., but that's about it. 

Then, I moved away to New York City for 12 years... didn't have a place to store the car there and didn't want to drive it in the city. So, I stored it at a relative's house in Tennessee. I asked him to start the engine and drive it around town regularly, but he didn't. It mostly just sat there. 

In January, I moved from NYC to Austin, TX, and wanted to get my car there as soon as I could. So, I embarked on an adventure.... Too optimistic (call it naive, I suppose), I thought I could show up in TN and drive the car 1,000 miles to Austin. I expected a few bumps along the way, but thought I could make it. Well, about 50 miles down the road, the heater core sprung a leak. No big deal, really. I just bypassed the heater core and was on my way. I thought I had dodged the bullet. But, about 600 miles down the road, I developed a gas leak from the carburetor... had gas just dripping right onto my block. And, the car just didn't feel/drive right. So, I pulled into the nearest Chevy dealer for a little advice (Texarkana, TX - good guys, no charge for the advice). Realizing I shouldn't drive it any further, I had it hauled to Dallas, TX, to "Texas Classic Cars of Dallas" -- it's actually a consignment dealer but they service classic cars too, and I'd had a few conversations with them before my trip. I had them rebuild my carburetor and took care of a few other repairs while I was at it. 
Total service included:

Rebuilt carburetor
Replaced master brake cylinder and brake pads
replaced heater core
New alternator cable
New spark plugs
New valve gaskets
New fuel filter
Had the gears/shifter adjusted.

Now, I'm back in Austin, and the car is mostly running very well. But, I'd like to continue to teach myself how to take care of it. And, I'd like to get it into A-shape. 

This forum is clearly a huge help and resource. I’ve been reading what I can, and now I'm here with a few pictures, videos, and some questions for the forum – if you don’t mind!

*STARTING ISSUE*
The car doesn’t start super easily… particularly if it’s been a couple days since it’s been driven. I prime the gas with a full depress on the accelerator, but still get a whirring sound sometimes… Is this a starter problem? Or a battery problem? Carburetor problem? Or, just that the car is 40 years old, and that’s going to happen? 

When it does start, it sounds pretty dang good, I think. But, I’d love some thoughts/opinions:
67GTO - Engine start - YouTube 

*Fremont, CA.*
According to the VIN, and all PHS docs, the car was made and assembled in Fremont, CA. Does this mean it’s a “California Car”… and what does that mean? How is that any different from a car made in MI or anywhere else?

*ENGINE DIAGRAM*
Does anyone have a good general resource for a basic engine diagram, so I can identify the various parts/components? I know what most big things are… but some of the detailed wiring, etc., I’d love to have a resource visual.

*ENGINE ID*
I’m 99% sure it’s a “matching numbers” car… at least that’s what I was lead to believe. I ordered the PHS documentation, but I CAN NOT find an Engine ID number on the engine despite looking everywhere and consulting guides online. Can anyone please provide advice as to how to locate it? Where should I stand and look for it? Passenger side, closer to the back of the hood than front, right? Is it easier to locate from above or from underneath the car? Where the heck is it??

*TEXAS LOCALS:*
Has anyone ever had any experience with Texas Classic Cars of Dallas? Good or bad? I liked them, but am curious what others have to say. I still have some brake issues that I’d like to get 100% rectified… Their brake job may not have been sufficient.

*Fuel Pump.*
Below is a picture of the bottom of my fuel pump (I think it’s my pump!)… Do I need to worry about it… it looks a little corroded on the bottom.

*Power Steering Fluid.*
A small drip drop of power steering fluid seems to leak from this hose/wire. Is that a problem? It’s not substantial, and I have plenty of fluid in the reservoir.

*Transmission fluid (?)*
Take a look at this picture of what I think is my transmission… I think a little gear and/or transmission oil may be leaking. Is that just because things are well lubricated, and it’s okay? Or, is this a problem?

*Shifter/Gears Issue*
It’s a four-speed manual. My gears seem tight, and it is usually very difficult to shift into second gear. The shifter seems to resist. The other gears are similarly tight (but second is the worst). I had the mechanic adjust the gears, but the fix didn’t last long. What can I do about this?


Lastly, here’s a link to a “tour” of my engine… Does anything look particularly good or bad? What jumps out at you…? 
67 GTO - engine tour - YouTube 


I really appreciate any and all thoughts or answers. Thanks for the time. Happy to be on the forum.


----------



## SANDU002 (Oct 13, 2004)

I switched to MSD ignition for easier starting. Unless you are driving the car daily and especially in cooler weather it will be harder to start. This is normal. When cold and has been sitting for awhile, I usually pump the pedal about 5 times and then try to turn it over. After the first couple of tries, keep your foot on the accelerater to start.

A drop or two of power steering fluid is normal for these cars. Some do and some don't.

On engine code, your PHS has a number for this. Stamped on the front passenger side head, you will find a 2 digit alphabetic code and a 6 digit number below it. If they match the PHS, you have something special.

Definitely looks like a car to work thru any issues and keep. You will find there is always going to be something to fix. ENJOY !!


----------



## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

I'll try to help with some of your questions;



1967-GTO said:


> STARTING ISSUE
> The car doesn’t start super easily… particularly if it’s been a couple days since it’s been driven. I prime the gas with a full depress on the accelerator, but still get a whirring sound sometimes… Is this a starter problem? Or a battery problem? Carburetor problem? Or, just that the car is 40 years old, and that’s going to happen?
> 
> When it does start, it sounds pretty dang good, I think. But, I’d love some thoughts/opinions:
> ...


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

1967-GTO said:


> *STARTING ISSUE*
> The car doesn’t start super easily… particularly if it’s been a couple days since it’s been driven. I prime the gas with a full depress on the accelerator, but still get a whirring sound sometimes… Is this a starter problem? Or a battery problem? Carburetor problem? Or, just that the car is 40 years old, and that’s going to happen?


Gorgeous car!! And yeah, it sounds great. Don't worry too much about it being slow to start after it's been sitting a few days. That's normal.



> *Fremont, CA.*
> According to the VIN, and all PHS docs, the car was made and assembled in Fremont, CA. Does this mean it’s a “California Car”… and what does that mean? How is that any different from a car made in MI or anywhere else?


I'll defer to more experienced folks, but I think that "California cars" were those that could have been built 'anywhere' but were shipped to and sold through dealers in California. Those cars would have had the A.I.R. pump installed along with all the plumbing to connect the system into the heads. "49 state" cars didn't get those pieces. Even though the heads had the passages for them present, they were blocked off.



> *ENGINE DIAGRAM*
> Does anyone have a good general resource for a basic engine diagram, so I can identify the various parts/components? I know what most big things are… but some of the detailed wiring, etc., I’d love to have a resource visual.


 There's a very good source for color-coded electical system diagrams - however I don't remember the name off-hand (I'm at work right now) but maybe Eric will chime in here. He's the one who told me about it. As far as general engine componentry --- the web is your friend. Just keep looking for Pontiac photos and you should be able to find clues as to what the big pieces are.



> *ENGINE ID*
> I’m 99% sure it’s a “matching numbers” car… at least that’s what I was lead to believe. I ordered the PHS documentation, but I CAN NOT find an Engine ID number on the engine despite looking everywhere and consulting guides online. Can anyone please provide advice as to how to locate it? Where should I stand and look for it? Passenger side, closer to the back of the hood than front, right? Is it easier to locate from above or from underneath the car? Where the heck is it??


The easiest way to tell if it's a numbers-matching car is to look for a partial vin number stamped into the front passenger side of the engine, down low, running verticaly next to the edge of the timing cover. I'll attach a photo/diagram that shows where to look. The code that's in the box marked "ID" in the photo will have two components. The longer numeric code is an engine sequence number that won't match anything else. It was used to sequence components for assembly at the plant - it might be referenced in the PHS documentation, but maybe not. The two character numeric code helps to identify the specific engine build (you have to also know the correct model year for the engine in order to be able to interpret this code correctly.) For a 67 GTO with manual transmission, tihs code is likely going to be WQ, WS, WT, WV, WW, or XS. The "lower" code, marked "Serial #" in the photo, will match a fragment of your complete VIN if the engine is the original "numbers matching" engine. If you've got a match there, you know it's the original engine and you can quit looking at other codes --- unless you're just curious.



> *TEXAS LOCALS:*
> Has anyone ever had any experience with Texas Classic Cars of Dallas? Good or bad? I liked them, but am curious what others have to say. I still have some brake issues that I’d like to get 100% rectified… Their brake job may not have been sufficient.


I live in the Dallas area and I've not heard of them at all. That doesn't necessarily mean anything though because I do 100% of my own work.




> *Fuel Pump.*
> Below is a picture of the bottom of my fuel pump (I think it’s my pump!)… Do I need to worry about it… it looks a little corroded on the bottom.


Yeah, it is but that's not a surprise on a car that's 45 years old. If it runs and drives fine then I woudln't worry about it yet - maybe I'ld try to knock some of that off there with a wire brush - but if it turns out that you DO have the original engine I might not even do that. A car can only be original once.




> *Power Steering Fluid.*
> A small drip drop of power steering fluid seems to leak from this hose/wire. Is that a problem? It’s not substantial, and I have plenty of fluid in the reservoir.


It's only a problem if it's a problem to you. As long as you're keeping the reservoir full and the car drives ok, it doesn't pose a threat (except perhaps to your abillity to keep everything under the hood spotless).



> *Transmission fluid (?)*
> Take a look at this picture of what I think is my transmission… I think a little gear and/or transmission oil may be leaking. Is that just because things are well lubricated, and it’s okay? Or, is this a problem?


Looks like that's at the front of the transmission/bell housing. That's a common place for oil to drip from if you've got a rear main seal leak (common problem on these engines). Again it's a question of quantity. If you're checking your oil regularly and the leak isn't severe, then it's more a question of convenience than anything else and not something to get super alarmed about.



> *Shifter/Gears Issue*
> It’s a four-speed manual. My gears seem tight, and it is usually very difficult to shift into second gear. The shifter seems to resist. The other gears are similarly tight (but second is the worst). I had the mechanic adjust the gears, but the fix didn’t last long. What can I do about this?


Shifters do wear out and also need occasional lubrication / rebuilding. Also if that oil leak IS coming from the transmission and the oil level in the trans is getting low, that could contribute. Compound that with the age of the car and the dwindling population of mechanics who really know what they're doing on them, what used to be a simple fix can turn difficult. In the Austin area, there's a guy who's also on most of the Pontiac forums who goes by Steve C. (I think this forum may be the only one I don't see him on regularly). If there's a guy in the Austin area who knows his way around 4-speeds, Steve will know how to find him. Try contacting 'SteveC." over on "Pontiac Street Performance" or "Performance Years".



> Lastly, here’s a link to a “tour” of my engine… Does anything look particularly good or bad? What jumps out at you…?
> 67 GTO - engine tour - YouTube
> 
> 
> I really appreciate any and all thoughts or answers. Thanks for the time. Happy to be on the forum.


Looks like a nice piece to me. I think I'm hearing a little belt noise, but it's hard to tell for sure. Nothing awful jumped out at me.

Bear


----------



## Thejudge 69GTO (Mar 22, 2012)

Classic Car Wiring . Com : Home of the original color laminated car wiring diagram

i just bought the 11x17 color chart for my 69 gto. 16.99 plus 3 shipping

$20

scott
69 gto


----------



## 1967-GTO (Mar 15, 2012)

Thanks for all the help, gentlemen.

Much appreciated.


----------



## blackplate65 (May 10, 2011)

nice car and cool history with it 
sounds like u will have fun with it


----------



## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Welcome to the herd, musta been fun driving that to HS in the 90's....your Grandfather did a fine job on it. after all that sitting you may want to replace all your rubber gas lines (there's one in the back where it goes into the gas tank) that may help your start-up problem as they will get microscopic cracks that allow air to bleed into the lines without it actually leaking gas. If its numbers matching leave it alone as far as modifications, and fix what is on it that needs fixing. I have a guy in town that re-builds my starters and alternators with my cores in a day or two.


----------



## 1967-GTO (Mar 15, 2012)

*Engine Codes...*

So, I finally found all the IDs on my engine... and it looks like it's not an original engine, as I had originally thought.

Here are the codes I was able to find:

Engine Code - 322731 YD

Serial Number - 20C112180

Casting - 9799914


From what I can tell, this is from a 1970 Pontiac, right? Is it from a GTO or another model? 
I found some sites that helped with decoding, but I'm still unclear. Apparently, this engine originally went with a 2bbl carb and automatic transmission. Right?

But, I have a manual transmission and 4bbl carb (Quadrajet). So, I've basically got a whole rebuild, right?

So, this hurts the value, I'm guessing, but what else does it mean about the car? Anything for sure?

This means the odometer has to be inaccurate since it's not the original engine, right? So, there's no way to know how many miles this particular engine has?

Any thoughts?
Thanks guys.


----------



## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

Yes, it's a '70 and a 2 barrel auto. 
1970 400 290 HP YD A 10.0 254 16/sm valve 1-2 7040060/64 Block Casting 9799914 
It should have #16 heads. The number will be on the center exhaust port of the head. 

Your PHS will tell you if it was originally a 4 speed car.

The odometer could still be right, has nothing to do with the engine swap unless they were able to zero it out. Verifying odometer readings can be difficult w/o some documentation supporting the reading. You're right, no way of knowing the mileage of that particular motor unless it was completely rebuilt before it was installed and the odo was zero'd.


----------



## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

it will effect overall value opposed to a numbers matching car in similar shape, because of the rarity of a 45 year old car with its original motor mainly from the standpoint of collectors and 100 point show cars. Since you plan on using it for it's original intended purpose....driving, and the fact that it was passed down to you by your grandfather if it were mine i would value it as a priceless family heirloom.


----------



## 1967-GTO (Mar 15, 2012)

Instg8ter: Yes, of course, I value it highly no matter the numbers. I'm just trying to get my head around some of the details for curiosity's sake.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

GREAT car, knockout color combo. I like it!!!! As a side note, about the "California" thing: There are several interpretations of "California Car". One, it was made for the California driver/owner, so it had the required extra smog equipment. This car could be made at any plant in the US. Definition 2 is a car actually made IN California, such as a Fremont built GTO. Number 3, is a car that was built anywhere in the us, but has been in California the majority of its life and thus has no rust issues, etc. As a native Californian, I have always seen it a little bit of each....for example, my '65 GTO was built in Fremont, but shipped and sold in Spokane, Washington. The buyer moved to California in '66, and the car still wears its '66 vintage black license plates. I would consider this to be a California car. My '67 was built in Baltimore, and shipped to Tennessee. It came to California in 1983, and I bought it. It needed lower 1/4 panels and came with no smog equipment. It has been in CA 29 years: most of its life. I don't consider it a California car, though. My friend Bill has a '67 GTO that was built in Fremont and sold in Visalia, CA. It has the smog equipment, black plate, and zero rust. Most definitely a CA car. So: would a car that was buillt for CA, sold new in CA and then driven two years later to, say Michigan, where it's used as a driver for the next 20 years be considered a CA car? Not really, IMO. To me saying "CA CAR" means your saying it's rust free and dry, pretty much, because it's been in CA all of its life.


----------



## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

They don't call us the rust belt for nothin'....:agree, when i hear Cali car i think rust free body. Spent 800 to ship mine in from Idaho for the same reason. Going to look at an Arizona 69' firebird soon. Body is by far the most expensive and labor intense part of a restoration so the better the foundation the cheaper roflthe build. Your best way to determine a fair market value these days is to check and see if any like yours with non numbers have sold on E-bay recently, a lot of things will effect value like color combo (yours is one of my fav's), options (and are they all as they were when built) these days they are worth what you can get someone to pay you for it. The few Pontiacs i seen at Barret Jackson did well so that could mean that they are stabilizing. Funny though that you and GeeTee are part of the minority that can get more than they have into it as yours was a gift and he bought low and held them long.....most of us are upside down or break even at best.


----------



## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Sweet ride, I'd consider it priceless and never sell it. You are lucky to get a car like that, sounds incredible. Making it as far as you did, I wouldn't consider that car neglected at all, I bought my uncles 36k mile Corvette, drove it from Wisconsin to Florida and was lucky I made it. Brakes went to the bottom in Illinois, then everything else... If you really need to sell it, sell it to me. But, I wouldn't let that car get far from me, nice.
Hopefully fixing the little stuff can make it your car. If you sell that car I will voodoo hell on you for life. I never consider a car mine just by owning it, it is just a car untill I make it mine and spend the time and do the work.


----------



## facn8me (Jul 30, 2011)

What an AWESOME grandpa!!!!!! No finer tribute than enjoying and taking care of it.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Jetstang summed it all up, as usual! Keep the car and put your brand on it...keep the family tradition alive!


----------

