# Craigslist Junk



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I did not want to post on a previous discussion and take away from the original poster's discussion on the value of his car, nor put any negative spin into his honest question.

So how do we value our cars as they are or when we are looking to buy & sell them. This includes parts & pieces.

This is my opinion of course, but many of the prices asked for are not in the realm of reality. Prices have been driven up and out of reach for most of us thanks to the assorted big name auctions, specialty consignment houses and dealers, and car repair/rebuild shows that flip cars and/or let the viewers know what it cost to rebuild and the price they immediately received when they went for a drive and a passerbyer just happened to see the car and had to have it at any cost. (I wanna find one of those guys! LOL). Even the insurance companies can be thrown in here for inflating car prices.

Now yes, some cars are indeed rare and of limited production numbers or have a unique history and can be worth their weight in gold - but once restored they are like the Mona Lisa, you can't really enjoy it unless you enjoy putting it in a museum, trailer queening it to car shows & events, purchased it as a money investment (or to hide your assets from the government), or simply want bragging rights of ownership amongst your affluent and lofty friends. So if you had for example a 1 of 2 car and yours was the only one in existence, yep, it might be worth 1 million plus to some collector. But, you may have had to have had the 5 year restoration that cost $500,000 to get it there. I am not talking of these cars.

Here is an example off Craigslist in my neck of the woods. I only uploaded the 5 pics to give you and idea of the car:* GTO 1965 - $4500* - This is a nice car for a full restoration.It has a 389 335 h.p. , automatic , power steering, power brakes and air conditioning.I have the rear bumper and stainless that was buried in the trunk.I think it has potential.The driver seat is rough but I found two very nice sets last nite .One set was 550 and 700 in black too.on Cleveland Ohio craigslist.I got my PHS report Monday showing it to be a gto.trades welcome

$4500???? Holy smokes. So how much money do you want to invest in bringing back a 335HP, ST-300 2-speed automatic car? The average car guy, as many of us are, would most likely not even consider a car in this shape. The pics show the visible rot, but no doubt once you got into this beauty it is just full of surprises. There are other pics showing more rusted areas.

Now if you asked me to put a value on this car, what would I say. I see this one as a parts car. IF the engine was freed up and turned over, I would put a value on it of $1800 tops (but more like $1200 would be about right), but I would need a warehouse to put all the parts after I stripped it down and hoped to sell all the parts in my lifetime to get my money back and make a profit off it.

This is just one of the many examples that come up in my area on the Craigslistings. And this is not limited to Pontiac or GTO stuff. I look at other cars, trucks, & parts as well and see nothing but overpriced junk - which has been posted in some cases for years. If you really want to know what a car or part is worth, look at the reasonable offers you may get and that is what it is worth. If you don't get an offer, your way too high and if you don't want to accept an offer, then maybe you really don't want to sell it. 

Just my opinion. :thumbsup:


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Some more local stuff that in my opinion is a bit high on the prices.

How about a *Ram Air Hood Tach for $150?* 

How about and unrestored pair of seats - *GM Bucket Seats 62, 63, 64, 65 GTO Chevelle, Skylark, Cutlass, - $350 
*
Trans-Am guy? Here is a beauty. *1978 Firebird Transam 400sm 6.6 - $2400*

How about a 400CI block that took a rod hit and has rough cylinders? *YZ code 400 Pontiac GTO or Firebird block - $500.* Back of block G067 July 6th 67 cast date 9790371 (Some of these were hard to make out but what I have looked up it should be for a 1968 400 HO 360 Horsepower). The block is .030 bored & was ran after boring. It had a rod break & at the bottom of one of the cylinders there is a notch where the rod hit. Some small dings in the cylinder too. Dings may clean up with boring or may need a sleeve?


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

What irritates me is I have sold quite a few parts, and cars at extremely reasonable prices. I sold my wife's 68 Camaro for 15K only to see it resisted a week later for 22K. 

I sold an original 64 engine for 900 with the 716 heads only to see the heads on eBay for 1500 and actually sold for 1k.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

tonyskala said:


> What irritates me is I have sold quite a few parts, and cars at extremely reasonable prices. I sold my wife's 68 Camaro for 15K only to see it resisted a week later for 22K.
> 
> I sold an original 64 engine for 900 with the 716 heads only to see the heads on eBay for 1500 and actually sold for 1k.


Yep, have had the same experience thinking to help someone out and give them a little break. All you can do is basically go high on the price and do the "or best offer" or just bring it down in small amounts until it does sell and then accept it if it sets right with you. If you see it relisted, always remind yourself you got what you wanted out of it and good for the other guy who can make a few bucks on it.

I don't buy items so I can flip them - 'cause I always get stuck with items that don't resell, or lose money trying to get rid of it. :yesnod:


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Well I must confess. I am the guy that will buy your parts at a reasonable price and resell for profit.I have been doing this for many years. Not as a living but for xtra cash to fund my projects. Now as Tonyskala has mentioned It may be irritating to sell something at a reasonable price only to find it selling for more later. That is called capitalism. I only buy cars and parts for muscle cars. I have flipped fixer uppers such as 1965 malibu ss convertible, 1972 el camino ss, 1970 442 convertible and currently have for sale a 1973 rolling chassis rs camaro split bumper. I have been told "are you serious" And another offered $500 as a joke. My reply is where are you gonna find another split bumper rs camaro. It takes a lot of work to get a trailer and go hundreds of miles to pick one up unload it relist it and tie your money up. I can only pay so much to be able to make it worth my while. So it is up to the seller to decide how badly they need the money or want it sitting around. I am not at all offended when someone rejects my offer and always wish them the best. But there are alot that are grateful not to have to deal with scammers and the such anymore on craigslist. In my experience buying fixer uppers and parts.I believe if that 65 gto came up for sale in my neck of the woods and had a (clean title) I would offer $2800 and go up to 32/36 after negotiations. But if I always dreamed of owning a 65 gto and could not afford a $30,000 car. I would certainly pay close to his asking price then find a $800 lemans and my dream would become a reality. Building some of the cars I buy are not for the faint of heart or the unskilled. But very doable. here is a picture of my 1974 camaro z28 4 speed ac car. It was in rough shape when I bought it for $900. No motor,tranny,seats, chicken wire in the quarters. You get the picture. But I always loved the stripe package on this car so I took on the project. My GTO wasn't nearly as bad. I do not own a shop all done out of my two car garage in the city. So figure what you would like to get for your cars/parts start a little higher and go from there. I enjoyed seeing this topic come up because muscle cars are almost unattainable for the common man anymore. You have heard "buy the worst house in the best neighborhood"? Well that applys to classics too.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

It's all about what name brand items you choose to add to your high mileage big block Pontiac (You can tell its a big block engine because its painted orange). 

*455 big block motor/trans - $6000 *

I got a 455 big block Pontiac motor with elderbrock intake and valve covers with a holly carb and new alternator. Newer 700r4 Goodyear trans and the msd ignition system all that goes. Came out a 76 Pontiac n it's now in my k5. Had about 150k on it before put in the k5 but it has only been in it for not even 500miles. I want something smaller.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The GTO is a mess....good for engine and AC parts, and possibly trim. The wheel covers have value. Funny that the front seats have the covers installed backwards, with the pleats pointing toward the doors instead of at the center of the car. This car, like so many I see, would be a money pit even if given away for free, unless it was parted out. I see maybe $1500 there in parts. The most I've ever paid for a '65 GTO was $2000, back in 1992, and it was a 4 speed car that drove and ran just fine. No rust, either. I recently offered a guy $700 for a '62 GP that has been sitting outside for 20 years. He wanted $4500. I walked. It'll sit there until it turns to dust.


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## Cafr119 (Dec 9, 2017)

WTH ??? This is what I’m saying.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Cafr119 said:


> WTH ??? This is what I’m saying.


My guess is that its not about THAT car, but the VIN, Serial No., frame, rear axle, and PHS documents to convert an unsuspecting Lemans convertible into a high dollar GTO. That said, you could double the price of your Lemans ala GTO.


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## Cafr119 (Dec 9, 2017)

I realize it’s not a Craigslist posting, but it
Just goes to show what some people are willing to spend on, stuff, lol. No way I’d spend that, if I did I would atleast want to be able to drive around the block.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Cafr119 said:


> I realize it’s not a Craigslist posting, but it
> Just goes to show what some people are willing to spend on, stuff, lol. No way I’d spend that, if I did I would atleast want to be able to drive around the block.


Like I said, swap all the numbers over to a nice 20K Lemans convertible and your $2500 investment went up 20-25K. So really a smart investment for the return.


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

PontiacJim said:


> Cafr119 said:
> 
> 
> > I realize it’s not a Craigslist posting, but it
> ...


I think even joking about doing something like you just said is about as low as you can get . So to ruin someone life financially and crush their dream and the possibility of you going to jail and being known as a loser and thief is worth it. I won't even go into how you look at your family after doing this . It's sad but a lot of folks do this and think its ok but me I get sick even reading about someone doing it or even making out its not a big deal . That why the car hobby is dying . Please have some respect for yourself. Doug


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## Cafr119 (Dec 9, 2017)

Wait a damn minute, Do Not go and quote me, my post is referring to the original posters “Craigslist Junk “ on how people over price items, how do they sleep at night !! I’m searching for a project GTO and it just amazes me on the starting bids on EBay of some of these cars, and I’m not just looking at GTOs, I have even been looking on just s plain Lemans as well. I enjoy working on cars, I let a person take advantage of me and my money on a 73 Lemans, I did ask all the right questions, later to find the windshield rotted pretty bad, I knew headed into the 73 that this year is very limited to what parts are not available, I didn’t even think to look at the windshield area, I knew arriving at night was not on my side to see this 73, So with being said, Do Not include me in a conversation of doing that with a VIN plate, I Do Not like clones !!!


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Wow, Jim,you really opened a hornets nest here:lurk:

(Good topic to cover, though.)


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## 11th Indian (Feb 15, 2018)

I found my car on Craig’s list. 

A 72, (yeah, I know) advertised as a PHS documented numbers matching car, GTO option… for sale in the winter from an owner located in a town that was snowed in at the time. No history and little to no information as to where its been, last registered 20 years ago.
What can go wrong?

As has been my experience as long time Craig’s list shopper, I purchased the car for much less than the asking price. Anytime I see something interesting on Craigs list I automatically assume the price is hyper-negotiable. I don’t even ask how some sellers come up with their bizarre prices. I find it’s a even split between fraud and ignorance…


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

1968gto421 said:


> Wow, Jim,you really opened a hornets nest here:lurk:
> 
> (Good topic to cover, though.)


Nah, that's just sensitive and over reactive Doug. He likes to get fired up, and I'm surprised I didn't get called a "jerk" on this one - that's his MO. He doesn't know what an opinion is or how to deal with them. I'm probably still not out of the name calling arena after posting this.

You can find his other previous posts where we got into it.

The bottom line is that there are many "slick tricks" that can be applied to any make/model. Where do you draw the line? If someone were to swap all the numbers, to include the frame vin, and then supply the PHS documents to back up the car, how many people do you think would know it was indeed not the original car as it rolled off the assembly line? How many do you think would even care as long as the numbers all matched the PHS documents? It's a documented GTO and that is all that really matters to most. Engines blow up, transmissions blow up, and rear ends grenade, so no-original parts don't always have an effect on the selling price IF it is documented as a GTO. Heck, Doug himself could purchase the car and never know and be ecstatic with it and drive it to all the cars shows putting it on display as a '65 GTO when in fact it was born a Lemans. And we know the GTO was an _option_ on the Lemans in some years. 

Is it any worse than those cars cloned as GTO's that are done in an exacting manner to command a high dollar price close to an original? These don't seem to have problems selling and there are a lot of them out there to include our members owning them - but you know they are clones because the data info tells you such. If I took the VIN, data tag, frame, and a few other dated parts (keeping in mind even swapped out parts are acceptable on a documented-to-be GTO) and added it to a Tempest or Lemans, my guess is 99.5% of the would be buyers would not even question it as long as I had the PHS papers to prove my claim.

But, if I went through all that work and detailed it out as a GTO restoration on a Tempest/Lemans born car/body, would it be all that bad to throw another psuedo-GTO into the pool of survivors?

This question comes up amongst WWII aircraft restorers. If you dredge up a rare British Spitfire from the ocean floor, how much of the actual plane do you think they use? But when it is restored/rebuilt using all new parts, it is still registered as a Spitfire and sold as an original with its original serial number and commands a value to match. Because we have some original parts and the original serial number, it is as if it is the original aircraft. Which is different if we take blueprints and build an exact copy of a British Spitfire and register/sell it as a copy because it does not have an original serial number or some of the original parts from an actual Spitfire.

So again, in the auto hobby, where do you draw the line? I don't see a first generation GTO as a GTO when it has an LS engine, 4-speed automatic, coil-overs, tubular A-frames, etc.. It did not come from the factory that way, yet it is still seen as a GTO and none look down on these mods. If you wanted to get technical, parts can certainly be swapped or changed around, BUT, they should be of that period/era that the cars came from and were driven in. So if you rifled through the old car magazines and installed the advertised parts of the day or modified to match those cars of the magazines, then you would still have a "true" GTO with those era correct modifications which many added to their cars to "improve" them or make them faster.

So again, where do you draw the line? Doug's rant is just _HIS_ opinion like I and others have ours. I don't need to get venomous or hateful because someone voices their opinion here on the forums. Doug has issues and where he sees the Vin/Data/Numbers swap as "about as low as you can get," another will see the swap as opportunity to make more profit by transforming another Lemans/Tempest into a documented and saleable GTO.


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

PontiacJim said:


> 1968gto421 said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, Jim,you really opened a hornets nest here
> ...


Jim as you stated we don't see eye to eye on many thing mostly the fact that in every post you think your always right . I find it hard to believe you own a GTO. So your trying to tell us that building a clone GTO and being up front is the same as swapping a vin and data tag and screwing someone? Something tells me most will not agree with you. I'd be surprise on this forum if anyone does, I might be wrong. Also if you think you can sell a fake GTO to 99.5% of us on this forum and we won't know speaks volume about you and your disrespect for others . But Jim with your 4000 plus posts I'm sure you really think you are smarter than anyone on this forum. Sorry Jim your wrong . . You see Jim no name calling just the facts . Doug


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## uscfan1976 (Sep 4, 2018)

There are many different ways to approach the value of what is sold. At the end of the day it really all depends on what someone is willing to pay for something (How much is it worth to them?) Now with that said I have seen some real junk on craigslist and I shake my head and wonder how someone could even try to sell something that is in such rough condition, or they give poor descriptions. There are also the good listings as well. I guess my point is buyer should always beware. Unfortunately Craigslist is turning into a junk site, I search all over the southeast and it almost seems that no matter the locale When I search for either GTOs or Pontiac engines I get nothing but junk ads.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

How much would you pay for my signature pic? 

Craigslist: Rust free one titled owner Idaho car stored in carport since 76' with the 326 seized up, interior completely baked, suspension on the ground, 99% complete (battery tray and ashtray only thing missing), chrome and trim lightly peppered. Sprayed in black epoxy for storage. All verified by my uncle that lived in the area

And what do you think a true GTO would go for in the same condition

What i was looking for: Old pontiac GTO or firebird to restore as a bucket list project. My budget going in was 20K for car and parts for restore. Figured i could handle labor except for paint (ended up doing that too).
I was looking to do period correct mods like i would have done as a teenager if i had any money back then.

I wavered between cloning and leaving it a Tempest until the time came in body work to find a new rear taillight panel and weld it in. I figured it would never be a true GTO and i will never sell it so I decided to keep it a tempest and use what i could find and salvage of original "pontiac/GM" parts to give it the look and power i was going for and keep it within budget. it now sports GTO grilles and a mangled $100 original hood i resurrected from being pried open with a tire iron. As GTO parts are the only thing available and everything has been re-done to GTO specs or better i put my money where i got the most bang for my buck. I now know every nut and bolt on this car and considering the extra parts i picked up on the ride i came close to my budget and have a virgin 70' 400 waiting in the wings if the 462 ever gives up the ghost.

First car in 81' was a 69' firebird bought from 85 year old widow who was original owner and had every receipt ever done to the car with full dealer service. mint interior and black vinyl top, minor rust and a few holes under rocker trim.


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## AlaGreyGoat (Jul 6, 2006)

Think I read somewhere, there are about 25% more early Mustang Fastbacks
on the road now, than were actually built.

Larry


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## 03Marauderman (Dec 29, 2018)

AlaGreyGoat said:


> Think I read somewhere, there are about 25% more early Mustang Fastbacks
> on the road now, than were actually built.
> 
> Larry


Don't ya know Chevrolet only made Z28 Camaro's in 1969??


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## 03Marauderman (Dec 29, 2018)

I'd like to weigh in on the beginning of this thread before it got derailed....'Craigs List Junk' the rusted 65 GTO for $3400. Ok so that's the asking price. In my opinion its fair, would I pay it? probably not, but I would negotiate and buy it....Why? looks like original paint, the fact that it still wears the original upgraded wheel covers speaks volumes....and the interior/dash looks great despite the drivers seat & missing carpet, which was most likely removed from being soaked.....Once you get passed all that it needs with regards to restoration which would be challenging and expensive, why do anything to it? The rarity is in it being an unmolested survivor.....My goal would be to get it running & driveable, obviously do something with the roof & replace the vinyl top...It may or may not be numbers matching but still a full bred GTO....There are so many restored & over restored cars of every make, that most people are up side down. & Thanks to the Barrett Jacksons of the world, they have created a situation where the average guy who couldn't afford these cars when they were new, and after a lifetime of working, still can't afford them now...how sad.....Real Craigslist junk is someone who takes a car like that 65, plasters it from stem to stern, carves out the dash for a stereo, replaces the engine & drive train from some old Catalina and throws some wild color on it.......Oh and circus wheels.......


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

11th Indian said:


> I found my car on Craig’s list.
> 
> A 72, (yeah, I know) advertised as a PHS documented numbers matching car, GTO option… for sale in the winter from an owner located in a town that was snowed in at the time. No history and little to no information as to where its been, last registered 20 years ago.
> What can go wrong?
> ...





03Marauderman said:


> I'd like to weigh in on the beginning of this thread before it got derailed....'Craigs List Junk' the rusted 65 GTO for $3400. Ok so that's the asking price. In my opinion its fair, would I pay it? probably not, but I would negotiate and buy it....Why? looks like original paint, the fact that it still wears the original upgraded wheel covers speaks volumes....and the interior/dash looks great despite the drivers seat & missing carpet, which was most likely removed from being soaked.....Once you get passed all that it needs with regards to restoration which would be challenging and expensive, why do anything to it? The rarity is in it being an unmolested survivor.....My goal would be to get it running & driveable, obviously do something with the roof & replace the vinyl top...It may or may not be numbers matching but still a full bred GTO....There are so many restored & over restored cars of every make, that most people are up side down. & Thanks to the Barrett Jacksons of the world, they have created a situation where the average guy who couldn't afford these cars when they were new, and after a lifetime of working, still can't afford them now...how sad.....Real Craigslist junk is someone who takes a car like that 65, plasters it from stem to stern, carves out the dash for a stereo, replaces the engine & drive train from some old Catalina and throws some wild color on it.......Oh and circus wheels.......


I took heat for disagreeing with this comment from a fellow forum member . I'm still to this day upset that anyone could think this is acceptable practice . I have no problems with clones as long as it is advertised as that . This is the quote form him. Please tell me most all if not ALL forum members don't agree with it. I let those who want to know who go back in this thread. Doug 

So again, where do you draw the line? Doug's rant is just HIS opinion like I and others have ours. I don't need to get venomous or hateful because someone voices their opinion here on the forums. Doug has issues and where he sees the Vin/Data/Numbers swap as "about as low as you can get," another will see the swap as opportunity to make more profit by transforming another Lemans/Tempest into a documented and saleable GTO.


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

dd68gto said:


> 11th Indian said:
> 
> 
> > I found my car on Craig’s list.
> ...


Test


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## 03Marauderman (Dec 29, 2018)

Wow...I can really be a devil's advocate....Think about this: a body - floor pan - roof - rockers - firewall - quarter panels - trunk floor - rear upper & lower body panels....back in the day at a Pontiac assembly plant, going down the line on a cradle.....(put aside old IBM punch card technology) It is yet to be christened....Could be a Tempest, Lemans or GTO....further down the line, the choice is made for frame, drive train, interior, bolt on sheet metal.....at that point the body, the car, gets its identity.....The overall determining factor in the necessity of cloning, is the body, that southwestern USA rust free body shell.....The rusted out hulk of the GTO is transferred to that body or vice versa - Body as parts described in my first sentence....Now I'm no expert in where all the stamped numbers are located I do recall some sort of a stamped number in the water gutter of a quarter panel, but cannot be certain it relates to a dedicated identification of model....My point is, the practice of cloning has different objectives....In a collision repair of a rear clip, a Lemans clip is sectioned on a GTO...Is that considered now a clone? Arguments can be made in either.....Or in a QUALITY first class restoration, is it best to use that rust free Tempest body, or hang two quarters, wheelhouses, a trunk & passenger floor pan along with the body panels as they will be sacrificed in the carnage..... I know what I would pick....There are a lot of factors to consider....Its way more that throwing GTO emblems on a Lemans......With regards to craigslist...I never had a problem as a buyer.....The guys selling the GTO's are usually guys you would find on this forum....Yeah there is always a bad apple, but for the most part there OK....Besides didn't CL take the place of newspaper classified ads?


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

03Marauderman said:


> I'd like to weigh in on the beginning of this thread before it got derailed....'Craigs List Junk' the rusted 65 GTO for $3400. Ok so that's the asking price. In my opinion its fair, would I pay it? probably not, but I would negotiate and buy it....Why? looks like original paint, the fact that it still wears the original upgraded wheel covers speaks volumes....and the interior/dash looks great despite the drivers seat & missing carpet, which was most likely removed from being soaked.....Once you get passed all that it needs with regards to restoration which would be challenging and expensive, why do anything to it? The rarity is in it being an unmolested survivor.....My goal would be to get it running & driveable, obviously do something with the roof & replace the vinyl top...It may or may not be numbers matching but still a full bred GTO....There are so many restored & over restored cars of every make, that most people are up side down. & Thanks to the Barrett Jacksons of the world, they have created a situation where the average guy who couldn't afford these cars when they were new, and after a lifetime of working, still can't afford them now...how sad.....Real Craigslist junk is someone who takes a car like that 65, plasters it from stem to stern, carves out the dash for a stereo, replaces the engine & drive train from some old Catalina and throws some wild color on it.......Oh and circus wheels.......


That's pretty much what I was saying.:yesnod:


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