# Performer or Performer RPM



## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

I currently have a 69 428 in a 65 GTO. It is a YH code 4 bolt main that has been bored 30 over. It has a cast crank, probably the original looking at the casting number, heat treated rods out of a 62 421SD, and TRW forged pistons. It has 72cc Edelbrock Performer RPM heads and an Ultradyne 280/288 H12 cam with a lobe separation of 110 degrees, 223/231 duration @ 50 and .463/.485 lift with 1.5 rockers; however, the engine has 1.65 rockers so the lift is .510/.534. Currently it has an Edelbrock P4B square bore intake (the older style with the smaller runners) and an Edelbrock Thunder AVS 800 carburetor. I am considering replacing the intake but I cannot make up my mind between the Edelbrock Performer and the Edelbrock Performer RPM. This car is not for the track and most of its use will be weekend cruises, car shows, and maybe a couple of cross country muscle car tours, hopefully. Oh, and the occasional full throttle stop light romp, we must play every now and then and my brother-in-law has a 71 454 SS Chevelle that I love to embarrass. The cam's RPM is rated from 1500 to 5800, or 2000 to 6500 depending on which web site you look at. I know the Performer intake is for low end power and is rated from idle to 5500 while the RPM is rated from 1500 to 6500. Would I be better staying with the P4B intake, getting the Performer intake to match the type of driving this engine will see most of the time, or getting the RPM intake which is a better match for the cam's operating RPM? When you drive the car you can really feel when the cam starts to become effective. Around 1700 the car has a lot more power. It is no slouch below 1700 but it is definitely stronger above 1700. One person advised to use the Performer Intake with a 1" closed spacer so you have the low end power of the Performer but the spacer would help add some high end power to better match the cam.

I know just enough about this stuff to make myself dangerous, but not enough to be able to make great decisions that won't result in wasted money. So any help or advice from the experts out there would be greatly appreciated.

Someday, money permitting, I would love to put a tri-power setup on this car. But that option is cost prohibited as of this time.

Thanks,
Dale


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## facn8me (Jul 30, 2011)

I'm guessing you run an automatic, I would recomend a small stall convertor to get you up to your cam easier. Nothing is gonna work "better" than the factory intake and quadrajet below 1500 rpm.


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

It ia a 4 speed with 3.36 limited slip rear.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

If it was mine, my first choice would be a rebuilt/refurbished 1966 tripower unit. My second choice would be a '68-'72 factory Q-jet intake with a good 800cfm Q-jet. Both are far superior to the Edelbrock stuff in every way.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

:agree


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## facn8me (Jul 30, 2011)

Well there ya go. Not really much you can do to make a cam work below 1500 rpm that is designed to work at 1500rpm +


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

I would buy a 66 Tripower if I had the money so I could get one that is rebuilt and ready to go. I am trying to make what came on the car work the best it can without spending too much money. If I had an original intake and Q-jet laying around for a 69 428 engine I would probably restore it and put it on, but it did not come with the car. That is why my question was which Edelbrock intake would work best with the combination I have. 

I also know that you can't make a cam work 100% below its operating range, but some combinations will make it better, some will make it worse. My question was not how to make it work below 1500; it was which intake would be better.

Here is the original question again.
"Would I be better staying with the P4B intake, getting the Performer intake to match the type of driving this engine will see most of the time, or getting the RPM intake which is a better match for the cam's operating RPM?"

As I said, some day in the future I hope to be able to add a tripower, but for now I need to make what I have work as good as I can.

Thanks for any advice which will help me pick a decent intake for my engine combination.
Dale


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Well put, Dale. That said, you might try the performance years forum regarding your choice of intakes. There is much information there on aftermarket parts. I myself am no authority on Edelbrock flow characteristics. Other forum members here might well be and be able to give you some sound advice. I did not mean to "shoot you down" or burst your bubble, and if I offended you, I apologize. I simply didn't read the question thoroughly and cranked out a quick response. Good luck with your endeavors.


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## fasterfiero (Sep 6, 2011)

I had a Holley street Dominator intake and after some research it became obvious that the factory intakes were hands down the best for the street........ I bought a stock cast iron intake on ebay. For your purpose I believe the stocker would perform best, that said I do not believe you are losing much with the pb4 you have, and probably not worth switching with another aftermarket intake. my $0.02 

D.


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

geeteeohguy said:


> Well put, Dale. That said, you might try the performance years forum regarding your choice of intakes. There is much information there on aftermarket parts. I myself am no authority on Edelbrock flow characteristics. Other forum members here might well be and be able to give you some sound advice. I did not mean to "shoot you down" or burst your bubble, and if I offended you, I apologize. I simply didn't read the question thoroughly and cranked out a quick response. Good luck with your endeavors.


You did not insult me or shoot me down. I just figured my question got lost in the long explanation. Thanks for responding with your advice and experience. I hope you have a Merry Christmas.
Dale


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

fasterfiero said:


> I had a Holley street Dominator intake and after some research it became obvious that the factory intakes were hands down the best for the street........ I bought a stock cast iron intake on ebay. For your purpose I believe the stocker would perform best, that said I do not believe you are losing much with the pb4 you have, and probably not worth switching with another aftermarket intake. my $0.02
> 
> D.


Thanks for the information. I have been checking into finding a stock 69 intake for a 428. Not much luck at this point. If I could find one it would probably be cheaper than a new Edelbrock. However; the Edelbrock carburetor will not work on the original intake without an adapter.

I have had mixed opinion on the P4B. From what I can find out there are a number of different ones with the earlier ones being worse than stock intakes, because of the square bore and narrow chambers, to the later ones that were actually identified as QJ for Quadra-Jet which were as good as or better than the original intakes. Unfortunately mine is one of the earlier designs for 65 and newer that has the square bore and small/restricted runners. So it will either be, stick it out with the P4B until the funds are there for the tripower, buy another Edelbrock (Performer or RPM), or find an original 69 intake.

Thanks again for the response and have a Merry Christmas.
Dale


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## 42867Goat (Apr 5, 2011)

I have a Performer RPM mounted to my 428 and it definitely seems to wake up around its advertised 1500 rpm, which is kinda sad the power isn't all there below that, but above 1500, its a blast. If it wasn't on the car when I bought I probably would've gone with something more stock just to have more power on the low end since I don't dare cross about 5100rpm with the beast.


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

42867Goat said:


> I have a Performer RPM mounted to my 428 and it definitely seems to wake up around its advertised 1500 rpm, which is kinda sad the power isn't all there below that, but above 1500, its a blast. If it wasn't on the car when I bought I probably would've gone with something more stock just to have more power on the low end since I don't dare cross about 5100rpm with the beast.


You know, this all really does make my head hurt. One guy with a long history of using Edelbrock products said to use the straight performer to match my driving habits. Then if I needed more top end performance I could add a 1/2" to 1" closed type spacer and I would keep my bottom end performance while improving the top end, sort of a mix of the Performer and RPM intake in one. Where I really get confused is the advertised RPM range for my cam is 1500 to 5800 or 2000 to 6500, depending on which paperwork you read. So will it be a waste trying to use an intake to improve lower end performance when my cam isn't rated to perform until 1500? This is what makes my head hurt. I don't have a deep enough understanding to know which would be best and I really don't want to waste the money buying one to find out I made the wrong choice.

OK, enough of my big sob story. Thanks for the information. It is good to know the RPM does what it is advertised to do. I hope you have a Merry Christmas.
Dale


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## 42867Goat (Apr 5, 2011)

Unfortunately I don't really know what cam the guy before me put in, otherwise, I'd be happy to compare. This is purely conjecture of course, but I would expect that the performance of the car would be better from 0-5500 with the normal performer regardless of the cam. Naturally if the cam matches the intake then you have doubly good performance for the ranges that they both operate, but if you leave 0-1500 out completely I would expect the performance there to be worse than if you had one of the pair with an optimal range that covered that portion of the rpm's. So if you rarely exceed 5000-5300 I'd steer away from the RPM, just so you can have an intake the covers a wider range of driving that you do. If you exceed 5500rpm often then I say its up to you.

As for the spacer theory, I don't have a clue as to the impact that would have, but his advice makes sense.


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## facn8me (Jul 30, 2011)

Unfortunatly you are chasing a problem you will never be able to solve without a cam swap. UNLESS you don't mind a small shot of nitrous. lol


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## fasterfiero (Sep 6, 2011)

You may be able to advance that cam a few degrees, you will have to check for interference. Back in the day I advanced a cam on an Oldsmobile with great results. I was under the impression the 4 hole space was to improve the vacuum signal at low rpm's and the open spacer was to help the flow in the upper rpm's on a dual plane intake ??


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

42867Goat said:


> Unfortunately I don't really know what cam the guy before me put in, otherwise, I'd be happy to compare. This is purely conjecture of course, but I would expect that the performance of the car would be better from 0-5500 with the normal performer regardless of the cam. Naturally if the cam matches the intake then you have doubly good performance for the ranges that they both operate, but if you leave 0-1500 out completely I would expect the performance there to be worse than if you had one of the pair with an optimal range that covered that portion of the rpm's. So if you rarely exceed 5000-5300 I'd steer away from the RPM, just so you can have an intake the covers a wider range of driving that you do. If you exceed 5500rpm often then I say its up to you.
> 
> As for the spacer theory, I don't have a clue as to the impact that would have, but his advice makes sense.


I would have to agree with your line of thinking on leaving the lower end out it would be worse. I have been emailing a guy from Australia who has run Edelbrocks since the 60's and is pretty much an expert on them. I finally got a response from him this morning and he says the same thing. That even though the cam is designed for 1500 to 5800 the Performer would help smooth out the lower transition and give more power down low than running the RPM which would completely leave the lower end open. He said if you run in the upper RPM range all the time then the benefits of the RPM intake would be worth it. But if you seldom go over 5000 and spend most of your time in the lower RPM range then the RPM intake will hurt you and the Performer would be a better choice, regardless of the cam. The Performer is designed to give the best results in low to mid range power where most street engines spend the biggest part of their time. He also says that a divided spacer on the Performer would help add some high end to that intake while preserving the low end power it was designed to do.

Thanks again for the advice and help. It is always good to hear from people that have experienced the same thing with basically the same setup.

Have a Merry Christmas,
Dale


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

facn8me said:


> Unfortunatly you are chasing a problem you will never be able to solve without a cam swap. UNLESS you don't mind a small shot of nitrous. lol


It really is not a problem, so to speak. The car runs like a scalded dog. It is just that I am tearing the engine down to refresh it, new seals, gaskets, bearings, etc, and I found the P4B intake that is on it has issues. It needs some repairs. So before I sink time and money repairing this intake I wanted to see if the car would do better with a more modern intake. I figure the expense of repairing this one would be about the same as a new one. The cam is an incredible match for this car and is perfect for a street driven car. It is an Ultradyne 280/288 H-12 and on top of that it has 1.65 rockers to make it breath better, so I am completely happy with the cam. I am just trying to see if there is a better intake that would complement my setup even better.

Thanks for the advice and have a Merry Christmas.
Dale


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

fasterfiero said:


> You may be able to advance that cam a few degrees, you will have to check for interference. Back in the day I advanced a cam on an Oldsmobile with great results. I was under the impression the 4 hole space was to improve the vacuum signal at low rpm's and the open spacer was to help the flow in the upper rpm's on a dual plane intake ??


I will ask my mechanic about advancing the cam, but I will still need to decide on a new intake or repair this one.

Have a Merry Christmas,

Dale


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## 67blackgoat (Dec 2, 2011)

I would install a '68 - '71 stock intake. Gasket match and smooth out any roughness and call it good. Many tests have been done and the stock intake does not get out performed on the street or on motors less than 5500 rpms. Racing is a different story with a single plane intake.

Interestingly the '71 455 HO intake is the best breather of all of them but not by much.

A later 70s four barrel with the a portion of the secondaries having a flat edge like a D, showed hardly any significant loss. It looked like it was quite restrictive.

A very interesting story appeared in High Perf Pontiac a year or so ago with the results I mentioned above.

Edelbrock intake does look nice though.

Merry Christmas all.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

With your cam, 428, and a 4-speed I'd give a slight nod to the rpm. Its going to hang on a little longerthan the base Performer. However with those rods I'd be a little cautious about pushing it too high. As others mentioned, a well set -up iron intake and QJet would be optimal but if that's not an option for you, then probably the rpm. Sounds like a sweet engine. :cheers:

Bear


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

While the stock intake is a really good piece on a stock or mildly modified motor, I feel with your cubes/cam/four speed combo a Performer RPM would be the best choice. 

Testing I've seen shows it really does'nt give up much in torque or hp in the low end if any at all (I'm talking like 3-5 hp/tq) and the wieght savings alone would be worth it to me over the stocker. They did make factory intakes in aluminum but they are rare and pricey. Factory made 1X4 and 2X4 alumninum intake manifolds.

I once helped a good friend of mine who is a professional porter cut up and reweld a factory 2X4 Bathtub intake for a guy running a superstock 421 in an early Catalina.I could'nt believe he wanted to do it (I understand their kinda rare lol) but the guy actually had two of them so he did'nt mind cutting one. I cut out the entire bottom section to increase the plenum volume. This is what the spacer does, increases plenum volume, which may or may not be needed on your motor. Basically there is more air volume in the intake based on how much your motor uses.

I would consider dyno testing with and without the spacer if you have room under the hood. The RPM is likely taller than your existing intake.


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

Thanks everyone for the advice. I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas.
Dale


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

Here is another question on the RPM Intake. Is anyone running the EnduraShine RPM Intake, and if so, how is the shine holding up? Does it stain, tarnish, or turn colors from the heat?

Hope everyone is having a Merry Christmas.

Dale


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## 42867Goat (Apr 5, 2011)

Tried to do some searching around about Endurashine and found this thread:

Edelbrock's Endurashine intake manifold - ChevyTalk --The Social Network for Chevy Fans

Seems like glorified paint that will stain/remove if you have any leaks or get gas/brake cleaner on it.


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

42867Goat said:


> Tried to do some searching around about Endurashine and found this thread:
> 
> Edelbrock's Endurashine intake manifold - ChevyTalk --The Social Network for Chevy Fans
> 
> Seems like glorified paint that will stain/remove if you have any leaks or get gas/brake cleaner on it.


Thanks for the link. Sure does not get good reviews. Looks like it will be the good old as cast intake. I wish they offered a polished intake for Pontiacs or a true ceramic coated one. I guess I could always send a new intake to Cool Concepts and have it coated.

Thanks again,
Dale


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

You can have your aluminum manifold polished too ya know.


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

ALKYGTO said:


> You can have your aluminum manifold polished too ya know.


I did think of that. The problem is finding someone in my small town that can do it and do a good professional job. That second part is the real big problem now days. Not many out there that take pride in their work to ensure they produce quality products. They are mainly concerned about getting it done and making the money. But I plan on asking around to see if I can find anyone.

Dale


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

If your in Mo. I know a gentleman I can refer who is a true proffesional. It's his full time job and he does'nt advertise and he works full time. He's the only guy I use. I can PM you his contact info if you'd like. :cheers


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

ALKYGTO said:


> If your in Mo. I know a gentleman I can refer who is a true proffesional. It's his full time job and he does'nt advertise and he works full time. He's the only guy I use. I can PM you his contact info if you'd like. :cheers


That would be great. I like checking out all available options. I am actually in Southeast Missouri. Is he close to there?
Thanks,
Dale


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

St. Louis area, he lives in Jefferson County which is south of STL.


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

ALKYGTO said:


> St. Louis area, he lives in Jefferson County which is south of STL.


I know the Jefferson County area very well, it is Festus which is only about an hour from us. I would be very interested in his name and number. Please send me a PM with his information or post it here if you don't mind sharing it with everyone. My wife is actually from St. Charles and we are wanting to go to Fast Lane Cars in St. Charles some day just to see what they have. Supposedly they have a nice selection of collectable memorabilia.

Dale


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

ALKYGTO said:


> If your in Mo. I know a gentleman I can refer who is a true proffesional. It's his full time job and he does'nt advertise and he works full time. He's the only guy I use. I can PM you his contact info if you'd like. :cheers


The engine looks great by the way.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

The guys name is Jeff Bosworth and he works through this shop in St. Charles among others, this is probably the best place to have your work done through. Stiegemeier's is only about 10 miles from Fast Lane also. :cheers

Stiegemeier Exterior Show Polishing Services


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

ALKYGTO said:


> The guys name is Jeff Bosworth and he works through this shop in St. Charles among others, this is probably the best place to have your work done through. Stiegemeier's is only about 10 miles from Fast Lane also. :cheers
> 
> Stiegemeier Exterior Show Polishing Services


Thank you, I now have them book marked. 
Dale


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## Chris Holabaugh (Jan 18, 2009)

I think alot has to with you cam and head flow. Own my 462 my cam is a solid roller with lif in the 560 range with heads ported to 250 flow. I ask my main project man about what intake I should use and stated if I was go to race alot I should to a single plane. But I tolk him it wou see more street use he said to go the RPM. With my cam the eninge only starts coming on at 2,300 rpm and goes to six grand. This has be done on a 65gto 4speed with headers. Like every one says there isn't room at the top with this setup.


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

I pretty much have decided on the RPM for my setup. I did find out looking thru my recent Summit magazine that Edelbrock has a polished version of the RPM for Pontiacs which does not show up on the Edelbrock site, they only show the as cast 7156 and the EnduraShine 71564. The polished RPM intake is 71561.
Dale


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## jimchevy (Dec 29, 2011)

42867Goat said:


> Tried to do some searching around about Endurashine and found this thread:
> 
> Edelbrock's Endurashine intake manifold - ChevyTalk --The Social Network for Chevy Fans
> 
> Seems like glorified paint that will stain/remove if you have any leaks or get gas/brake cleaner on it.


No way is it glorified paint. I had the endurashine intake on my 70' Chevy c10 and it was maintenance free and tough. I think it's an awesome coating, imho.


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

jimchevy said:


> No way is it glorified paint. I had the endurashine intake on my 70' Chevy c10 and it was maintenance free and tough. I think it's an awesome coating, imho.


Have you had fuel leaks on it and spilled carb cleaner on it? Was just wondering if it stained at all. The guys on the Chevy site all said theirs stained. I can get the EnduraShine one $70 cheaper than the polished one. Summit sells the polished one for $369.95 and AJUSA.COM sells the EnduraShine for $294.55 with free shipping and handling. That is a big difference if they both hold up the same.
Thanks for the information,
Dale


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## jimchevy (Dec 29, 2011)

Dale, I had a few minor fuel leaks on it and it wiped right off. I never had carb cleaner on it though. The coating is really tough. Polished aluminum will dull over time because it will oxidize. Endurashine will hold up.


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

jimchevy said:


> Dale, I had a few minor fuel leaks on it and it wiped right off. I never had carb cleaner on it though. The coating is really tough. Polished aluminum will dull over time because it will oxidize. Endurashine will hold up.


Jim,
That is very good to know. I did not think the polished would dull over time, but it makes sense. There is nothing on the finish to stop oxidation. The EnduraShine is a lot less than the polished intake so it might be the way to go. I have had a number of the as cast intakes and they always looked bad after a couple of years because the ruff surface acted like velcro to stains.
Thanks,
Dale


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