# Ethanol Coming Soon!!



## lotaguts (Jan 17, 2006)

I think its only a matter of time before we will start seeing ethanol for our vehicles here in the US its widely used in foreign countries such as S. America. Just think of it all that high-octane flowing through our goats injectors I am liking the sound of that...:lol: Hopefully conversion is not bad.


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## GTO-Quikls2 (Mar 21, 2005)

Other then the "green" aspect of what use is it going to be. It's my understanding that there is more "energy" in a gallon of gas then in a gallon of ethanol. Also, less mpg. Hopefully, one of the experts on this board will help explain this one for the rest of us.


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## lotaguts (Jan 17, 2006)

From my understanding the range is not significantly reduced from that of petrol (gasoline). Lets see if anyone can shed some light on the subject.


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## Ricekiller (May 2, 2006)

You will yield the same amount of power with a gallon of ethanol as you will a gallon of gas.

I think what you might have heard is that there is more energy required in producing a gallon of ethanol over a gallon of gasoline...which is true.

Gas has to be pumped and refined, whereas ethanol from corn has to first be collected off the crops, fermented, then extracted. This does take work, but with more work comes more jobs 

Ethanol is considered cleaner than gas, which is confusing to alot of people considering it still releases emissions. The reason it is considered 'green' is because it it Carbon Neutral - meaning the amount of carbon dioxide release is the amount of carbon dioxide converted back to clean air by the plants it came from.

Problems with Ethanol: It takes more work to produce than gas, so unless there is a low demand for gas, government tax breaks, or a more improved process for extracting ethanol, it may have trouble competing with gas. It will also require a high amount of ethanol to meet demand in the US (a corn field the size of Iowa...which is not Unrealistic, but would take years). South America uses less gas, so ethanol doesn't have as much of a problem competing there...in the US with our high demand for fuel, it may have trouble keeping up.

Any car can be converted to using ethanol by reprogramming the car's computer. Hope that helps...


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## PHOTOGOAT (Feb 17, 2006)

Ricekiller said:


> Any car can be converted to using ethanol by reprogramming the car's computer. Hope that helps...



Less not forget that it takes more than a retune to run E85. The fuel tank, lines and feed system will require an upgrade as well. E85 will absorb moisture from the air, this in turn creates a condensation problem within the fuel system. Also, it washes the oil off of the cylinder walls during normal operation, which can cause engine problems for 'stored' vehicles. Something to keep in mind.....

E85 is a great thing, but it requires a conversion, not a retune.  

:cheers


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## Ricekiller (May 2, 2006)

I learn something new everyday


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## RedRacer (Sep 12, 2004)

lotaguts said:


> I think its only a matter of time before we will start seeing ethanol for our vehicles here in the US its widely used in foreign countries such as S. America. Just think of it all that high-octane flowing through our goats injectors I am liking the sound of that...:lol: Hopefully conversion is not bad.


Since when is South America a country?


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

Corn based ethanol is a waste of time. Too much energy required to make it. The Brazilians are producing ethanol from sugan cane. They're also permitted to drill for oil in their own country -- so they're now energy independent. Imagine giving OPEC the finger -- and meaning it.


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## CrabhartLSX (Feb 12, 2006)

I hope they never put that ethenol crap in premium gas. Ethanol doesn't have as much energy as gasoline, so you'd loose power and get worse mileage. Isn't this the crap they put in "winter blend" gas up north? From what i hear it makes the cars run horribly and get around 2-5mpg less. Yeah good idea on how to save gas, let's make everyone's mileage worse.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

CrabhartLSX said:


> Octane doesn't have as much energy as gasoline, so you'd loose power and get worse mileage.


Crab, are you the Professor or Gilligan?

Saying that Octane doesn't have as much energy as gasoline is about like saying that H2O won't freeze at the same temperature as water.

That premium gas in your tank is 93% Octane and 7% Heptane (plus a volumetrically small amount of additives). These are both hydrocarbon molecules produced from "cracking" crude oil. 

Heptane has seven carbon atoms and will ignite with relatively low compression.

Octane has eight carbon atoms and can be compressed much more without spontaneous ignition.

This is why a higher compression engine requires higher Octane content. This wasn't the case back in the days when oil companies were allowed to add tetraethyl lead to the soup. But, that's another story.

Why high compression engines? Well, in a normally aspirated engine, higher compression = more power all else being equal.

Your friendly Exxon fuel engineer blends the two molecules to get just the right resistance to detonation for your GTO thereby extracting maximum dollars from your wallet.

As for ethanol in cars, seems like a waste of good moonshine.


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## Don (Sep 20, 2004)

Ethanol has fewer BTUs (Enegry) per gallon than gasoline by about 10%. BTUs are units of energy based on heat. Ethanol is used in high smog ares as a part of the blend in gasoline because it carriers its own oxygen therefore burning with less cabon monoxide as well as no sulfer. In many areas you are using ethanol in your gas now whether you know it or not. One of the biggest problems getting the most energy out of ethanol is that it has a much higher octane rating than gasoline. It requires therefore higher compression for optimal energy extraction. Most gasoline engines including ours do not have high enough compression to best utilize only ethanol. It also doesn't work that well in the cold therefore E85 has 15% gasoline to help an engine start. In the olden days maybe today as well there were drag classes for alcohol powered cars. These cars had really high compression.
The kind of alcohol that is really bad on fuel system parts is methanol. This is made from natural gas for the most part and not used much. 
The notion that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than comes out of it is false. Basically right now there is an increased demand for it there is not enough production capability. Plants are being built but take a cpouple of years to site and build.
It takes energy to drill for oil, pump it transport it,refine it, and transport it to where you buy it. 
The biggest energy input for ethanol is probably the fertilizer. The sun is free. There is less energy in transportation of the corn as most of it is grown within about 100 miles of the distillery. Natural gas is used in the distillation process although I am not sure whether it takes more energy to distill mash per gallon or to crack crude. There is some transprotation enegry cost to get the ethanol to the refineries but probably no more than used to move gasoline around.
I guess I would rather pay a farmer in Indiana to grow corn than pay somebody in the middle east or South America for oil.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

Ricekiller said:


> You will yield the same amount of power with a gallon of ethanol as you will a gallon of gas.
> ...


More misinformation.......

The Btu is a standard measure of energy. One Btu is equal to the amount of energy required to raise the temperature of one pound of liquid water by 1 degree Fahrenheit at its maximum density, which occurs at a temperature of 39.1 degrees Fahrenheit. One Btu is equal to approximately 251.9 calories or 1055 joules. 

Energy content of Gasoline = 114,132 Btu/U.S. Gal.

Energy content of E85 (Ethanol) = 83,263 Btu/U.S. Gal.

83,263 / 114,132 = approx 73% of the energy in a U.S. gallon of E85 that is contained in the same gallon of unleaded gasoline.

While the energy content alone would indicate a larger impact, most studies quote about a 10% drop in mileage with E85.


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## CrabhartLSX (Feb 12, 2006)

Wing_Nut said:


> Crab, are you the Professor or Gilligan?
> 
> Saying that Octane doesn't have as much energy as gasoline is about like saying that H2O won't freeze at the same temperature as water.
> 
> ...



woah did i seriously write octane? i meant ethanol.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

b_a_betterperson said:


> Corn based ethanol is a waste of time. Too much energy required to make it. The Brazilians are producing ethanol from sugan cane. They're also permitted to drill for oil in their own country -- so they're now energy independent. Imagine giving OPEC the finger -- and meaning it.


+10^3


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

Groucho said:


> +10^3


Corn based ethanol is not a waste of time. Properly aged in charred oak barrels, it can be really smooth and much cheaper than that fancy store bought liquor. Very important to the F-body / mason jar crowd. Junior Johnson is very disappointed in you.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Wing_Nut said:


> Corn based ethanol is not a waste of time. Properly aged in charred oak barrels, it can be really smooth and much cheaper than that fancy store bought liquor. Very important to the F-body / mason jar crowd. Junior Johnson is very disappointed in you.



Does this mean that when we go to the pumps to fill up we should take a beer stein with us? Will fill er' up take on a new meaning? 5 gallons for the goat and a quart for me? Sucking on the gas pump nozzle will be common place.
arty:


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

Wing_Nut said:


> Corn based ethanol is not a waste of time. Properly aged in charred oak barrels, it can be really smooth and much cheaper than that fancy store bought liquor. Very important to the F-body / mason jar crowd. Junior Johnson is very disappointed in you.


I have been pwnz3d. :lol:

:cheers


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## UdnUdnGTO (Jan 30, 2006)

arty: Wow, better than a drive up liquor window! If we prefer beer to whiskey, would we suffer from wheel hops?


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## GTO-Quikls2 (Mar 21, 2005)

I like Don and Wing Nut's answers... I don't really understand them, but I like them. Mostly because I think they are saying that I was on the right track.

Public service message... don't drink and drive... my wife's out there on the road and that's dangerous enough without adding in drunks too.


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## cuspid (Dec 8, 2004)

*ethanol facts*

http://zfacts.com/p/60.html


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## QwkRed05GTO (Oct 17, 2005)

I live in Ohio and went to the State Fair last year where a guy from the Ohio Corn Growers Assoc was talking about the benefits of Ethenol. He said regular gas enriched with ethanol contains more oxygen — so it burns cleaner, leaving fewer deposits and keeping fuel injectors and intake valves cleaner. Also, ethanol-enriched fuel can reduce pre-ignition problems (knocking/pinging), ethanol does not increase corrosion, nor will it harm any seals or valves, ethanol-enriched gasoline meets all applicable vapor-pressure standards — to alleviate driving or starting problems in hot or cold weather.

To my surprise, he also spun the fact that ethonal absorbs water by stating that ethanol-enriched gasoline can tolerate water contamination to a far greater degree than gasoline alone — it absorbs moisture and helps prevent gasoline freeze-up in cold weather.


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## C5ORGTO (Dec 30, 2004)

I'm headed to the bar to have some Ethanol N Coke. See ya.arty:


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## GTO-Quikls2 (Mar 21, 2005)

CUSPID, thanks for the site. Puts it all in perspective.


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## Don (Sep 20, 2004)

Cuspid I too read the zfacts site. It answers some questions quite well. It does seem to do all of its price comparisons based on a refined gallon of gas. Crude at $70.00 per 42 gallon barrel cost about $1.66 so there is some considerable cost to get from crude to our fuel tanks. I wonder how all the equations would work by comparing the cost from start to finish for each product. 
I do know that the cost for a distillery is far less than for a refinery. I don't think there are any new refineries underconstruction. The lack of ability to refine crude into gasoline and all the other products is part of what is driving up prices. 
However we look at this it is not going to get better ever.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

GTO-Quikls2 said:


> I like Don and Wing Nut's answers... I don't really understand them, but I like them. Mostly because I think they are saying that I was on the right track.
> 
> Public service message... don't drink and drive... my wife's out there on the road and that's dangerous enough without adding in drunks too.


Agreed! I was trying to add some humor to the discussion but I absolutely do not endorse or tolerate alchohol and driving. It's just plain stoooopid!

I wouldn't do it and I don't want to share the road with drunks! Ever!


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