# GTO N00b here….



## Lightindarkness420 (Dec 6, 2006)

So…last year I bought a 2006 G6, GT coup (Which I loved), but I just traded it in for a 2004 GTO (Black on Black) A4 (Which I love even more). My payments did go up a bit, since I was upside down on the G6 and my GTO has 26K on it (My G6 had 11K), but damn do I love the GTO’s. 

I wanted an 06 or 05 M6, but couldn’t afford one and I had a chance for a M6 04, but I figured since I live in the city the A4 would be better…

I am now looking at going to a trade school to learn how to fix/tune up my Goat and maybe start a tuner shop of my own.


But first things first….Did I make a bad move with trading sideways? (Down in year, but up in HP and style) Should I have went with the M6? I read something about a kit of some sort that turns an automatic transmission into a manual or semi-manual one…anyone know anything about these? And when I start up grading/tuning up my Goat, which tuners should I start with? Save for the turbo charges or start small with the cold air intakes and water pumps..?



:willy:


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## nagoat (Oct 21, 2006)

welcome
i live in the city and i like the m6 but thats just my preference.
i try to avoid traffic anyway (this thing hates traffic).
as you will see on this board there are plenty of mods to choose from.
since you mentioned s/c if you got the dough drop one in and be done.
well maybe almost done.


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## ChiefyGTO (Aug 7, 2006)

I live in Seattle, rated 2nd worst only behind LA in traffic. I've got the 6MT and wouldn't change it for anything. No 4AT here. I'd have gone for the 6MT but that's me.

Anyway, congrats on the purchase!!


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## ChiefyGTO (Aug 7, 2006)

Lightindarkness420 said:


> But first things first….Did I make a bad move with trading sideways? (Down in year, but up in HP and style) Should I have went with the M6? I read something about a kit of some sort that turns an automatic transmission into a manual or semi-manual one…anyone know anything about these? And when I start up grading/tuning up my Goat, which tuners should I start with? Save for the turbo charges or start small with the cold air intakes and water pumps..?
> 
> 
> 
> :willy:


Oh yes, also no, not a bad trade at all. Its in what your preference is. The GTO a comfortable/tame muscle car (well, about as tame as a muscle car can be, anyway... and it's clear by what you did that you prefered the GTO over the FWD G6 coupe, albeit not a bad car in its own rite.

And I'd start w/ more basic bolt-ons, exhaust and what not.


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## pickinfights (Oct 3, 2006)

Magie!!!arty:


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## noz34me (Dec 15, 2005)

Congrats on your purchase! I think you'll like the Goat- - just be aware there's higher insurance, higher maintenance costs, etc. that goes along with owning one.

I would also encourage you to hang onto this car until you get "right side up" on your financing. Too many young people dig themselves into a deep hole buying cars frequently. 

Believe it or not, someday there will be other things even more important for you to buy than cars, and you'll want to be in a good position to do so. 

Good Luck!


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## fullarmor2 (Mar 1, 2006)

Lightindarkness420 said:


> So…last year I bought a 2006 G6, GT coup (Which I loved), but I just traded it in for a 2004 GTO (Black on Black) A4 (Which I love even more). My payments did go up a bit, since I was upside down on the G6 and my GTO has 26K on it (My G6 had 11K), but damn do I love the GTO’s.
> 
> I wanted an 06 or 05 M6, but couldn’t afford one and I had a chance for a M6 04, but I figured since I live in the city the A4 would be better…
> 
> ...


 Relax a little bit bud. Your GTO is awesome the way it is from the factory. Enjoy it. I'm not saying don't do mods, I just thought you sounded a little up tight about it, when you don't have to be. Your fine with the auto, and they say its a LITTLE bit faster than the manual anyway. :cheers


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## Lightindarkness420 (Dec 6, 2006)

Thanks for the input everyone!

So…I’m not looking to trade this thing in or mod it up anytime soon…Got to save and plan for that. And this is my 5th or 6th car that I have made payments on, but the first one I got before paying off the other one….I just REALLY wanted a GTO and couldn’t wait any longer…even though I KNOW I should have. Oh well.


So…I know bolt on’s would be easier, cheaper and faster, but I don’t want to buy a few things and then have to take them off because either A) The higher upgrades all ready have a component that replaces that one or B) I run out of room under the hood. The last thing I want to do is save up money for the part and for someone to install it, just to have to be taken off a year later….

*begins to wonder what I am going to get for a second car*


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## BILLYGTO (Dec 12, 2006)

fullarmor2 said:


> Relax a little bit bud. Your GTO is awesome the way it is from the factory. Enjoy it. I'm not saying don't do mods, I just thought you sounded a little up tight about it, when you don't have to be. Your fine with the auto, and they say its a LITTLE bit faster than the manual anyway. :cheers


Is that true.....the auto is a LITTLE bit faster? I am in process of buying a GTO here this week. I know 6sp vs Auto is of personal preference, but my car will be for pleasure and maybe, just maybe a drag or track day once or twice a year. 

What's everybody's thoughts on the tranny?


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## nagoat (Oct 21, 2006)

i don't think that it is actually faster, it just doesn't miss a shift
manuals have more af a driver factor in how fast they go. imo


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## AudiAaron (Oct 6, 2006)

Manuals are usually faster than Automatics except in two instances I know of. 1) VWs DSG transmission is faster than their 6 speed because of its twin clutch design, and 2) Porsche 997 turbo Tiptronic is faster than 6 speed because its variable turbine geometry and the automatic can hold boost during upshifts unlike the manual.


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## Rusty (Jun 27, 2006)

Pontiac actually says both the A4 and the M6 come in under 5 seconds...

personally, I think the Auto makes all the difference since I doubt any of us can shift as fast as on an A4. I mean, drag racers use automatics... wonder why that is if shifting is all that much better...

Besides, casual driving for me is much nicer with an A4...

Just my 2 cents...


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## Rusty (Jun 27, 2006)

nagoat said:


> i don't think that it is actually faster, it just doesn't miss a shift
> manuals have more af a driver factor in how fast they go. imo


:agree 

The Manual requires skill of the driver... Learning how and when to shift... and getting the action down so you don't miss gears...

Plus there is that clutch fix every 30-50K you have to deal with...


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## BILLYGTO (Dec 12, 2006)

Gotcha.

So basically since I'm not a professional drive odds are IF I went to the drag strip and raced my car I'd get a better 1/4 mile time in the auto just because it takes more precision in the 6sp manual. As for city driving is it safe to say the auto is 'faster' due to the fact 'reaction' time is better from a standstill and while moving for downshifts, launch ect....keep in mind I'm thinking getting out of the hole without attracting attention to myself. *no chirp or wheel spin*

Does the clutch on this thing really go out every 30-50K miles?

How is the reliability of the tranny for both models and the car overall.


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## nagoat (Oct 21, 2006)

BILLYGTO said:


> Gotcha.
> 
> So basically since I'm not a professional drive odds are IF I went to the drag strip and raced my car I'd get a better 1/4 mile time in the auto just because it takes more precision in the 6sp manual. As for city driving is it safe to say the auto is 'faster' due to the fact 'reaction' time is better from a standstill and while moving for downshifts, launch ect....keep in mind I'm thinking getting out of the hole without attracting attention to myself. *no chirp or wheel spin*
> 
> ...



i would think "chirp and wheelspin" would be better controlled with a manual
as you the driver can determine how much force goes directly to the wheels by controlling clutch as opposed to mashing on an auto.


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## Rusty (Jun 27, 2006)

nagoat said:


> i would think "chirp and wheelspin" would be better controlled with a manual
> as you the driver can determine how much force goes directly to the wheels by controlling clutch as opposed to mashing on an auto.


I disagree... The acceleration on an automatic is much smoother than a manual. When the wheels "chirp" or lose traction it is usually due to quick acceleration jerks. The only real acceraltion jerk on an automatic is at launch... 

I see manuals all the time racing and their excelleration is usually anything but smooth... Good drivers with manuals minimize this but it's still there... You pop the clutch in a turn and you lose control... 

The idea is to *NEVER* get chirpping...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_friction



> Friction forces are categorized as either static or kinetic. The coefficient of static friction μs, characterizes friction when no movement exists between the two surfaces in question, and the kinetic coefficient μk, characterizes friction where motion occurs. While static and kinetic friction differ in value *(the coefficient of static friction typically being greater than that of kinetic friction), *
> 
> Any force larger than Fmax, will overcome the force of static friction and cause sliding to occur. The instant that sliding occurs, kinetic friction is applicable, and static friction is no longer relevant.
> 
> ...



you know, the more I thnk about it I wonder if manual transmisions provide any real racing advantage at all...


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## nagoat (Oct 21, 2006)

point taken


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## BILLYGTO (Dec 12, 2006)

How does the auto downshift and hold gears under 'spirited' driving? Can you set it to hold a gear for a corner, does it downshift when you're already moving quickly if you punch the gas/stab the throttle?


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## Rusty (Jun 27, 2006)

BILLYGTO said:


> How does the auto downshift and hold gears under 'spirited' driving? Can you set it to hold a gear for a corner, does it downshift when you're already moving quickly if you punch the gas/stab the throttle?


Yup.. it does downshift when you punch the gas... When you gas it the tranny downshifts to a gear that matches the power you need... The GTO A4 response is actually quite good. I test drove 3 M6 GTOs to 2 A4 and I personally found better acceleration from the A4. Granted, an M6 needs a little experience to get the feel of the power in each gear but I tried to ride the higher RPMs as much as the salesman would let me. I was more impressed with the A4... Funny, Pontiac puts both the A4 and the M6 below 5 secs -- they don't say which is better... And besides, the A4 is likely far more consistant at that time than the M6 -- the human factor makes every run an unkown...

I get the feeling people with M6 GTOs are bull****ting themselves about the performance of the M6 vs the A4. 

"spirited driving"? You don't think someone with an A4 can drive with spirit and aggression?


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## BILLYGTO (Dec 12, 2006)

Rusty said:


> Yup.. it does downshift when you punch the gas... When you gas it the tranny downshifts to a gear that matches the power you need... The GTO A4 response is actually quite good. I test drove 3 M6 GTOs to 2 A4 and I personally found better acceleration from the A4. Granted, an M6 needs a little experience to get the feel of the power in each gear but I tried to ride the higher RPMs as much as the salesman would let me. I was more impressed with the A4... Funny, Pontiac puts both the A4 and the M6 below 5 secs -- they don't say which is better... And besides, the A4 is likely far more consistant at that time than the M6 -- the human factor makes every run an unkown...
> 
> I get the feeling people with M6 GTOs are bull****ting themselves about the performance of the M6 vs the A4.
> 
> "spirited driving"? You don't think someone with an A4 can drive with spirit and aggression?



I'm going to drive an A4 either today or tomorrow. 

'spirited driving' yeah one can drive that way in any vehicle, you're just limited by your own abilities and the vehicle itself. I just wanted to see if it was a dog on the shifting and holding in the auto. If it's like my silverado 4spd auto tranny then it will still be fun but not like say a triptronic ect....Eitherway I know I'll be happy they have their pros and cons. I tend to lead with a manual based on what I am told *magazines, father-in-laws babling about manual being better on the track ect..* yet my driving impressions are usually better with an auto, the only exception being 92-97 Z28 Camaro's...I preferred the manual there by far! I just didn't want another auto where I am feeling like the car is slower than it should or could compared to the manual.


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## BILLYGTO (Dec 12, 2006)

Another dumb tranny question *if I need to post this stuff else where let me know*

What is the reliability like on the A4? The TSB's for the 2006 show some issues there, where as the 6sp M doesn't have those issues, but I read about the clutch being a little weak in the car and expecting to replace after about 25-35K miles.


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## cammed06 (Dec 12, 2006)

Basic tranny 101: 

1. If you don't want to lose boost (Turbo) automatic. Reason: technically no one can outshift an auto.

2. Now days you can build and auto to shift as hard as a manual and you can tune it to shift where you want. 

3. A stall converter and transbrake can make you launch like a manual. 

Both are hard on driveline: Auto: constant pressure through accel. manual: jerky through shifts and then pressure.

Most importantly remember that if you can learn to be the master of shifting a manual that you lose less horsepower through the manual transmission to the wheels.

Some professional drag racers have used bruno autos with less slippage than a promod clutch and a manual.

I have an m6 because I rode in a ys trim vortech blown 89 coupe and fell in love with the manual blown beast. I had owned an auto 99 z28 and smoked every stock manual I raced, including the slow c5's auto or stick. Bangin gears is a part of the driving experience, I guess that I am a control freak, but ultimately the benifits of a manual is road racing and less hp loss to the wheels.


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## Rusty (Jun 27, 2006)

I guess you are right about the style of driving you expect should dictate whether you chose an M6 or a A4. I don't think the M6 can be claimed the victor based soley on performance though... There is no doubt an M6 will shred a set a tires faster than an A4. If you plan on difting fun then an M6 might be a better choice... The ability to have absolute control of the power to the wheels is the strong point for the M6. 

I'm just saying you need to drive both and see what fits for you... For me the M6 just wasn't a match. I'd like to maybe race side-by-side the M6 vs the A4 to see how they match up... I get this feeling the A4 is not the slug many here think it is...

The A4 i've heard is a modification of a 3-speed tranny GM has been making since the 70s... longevity of these trannies are pretty good... I haven't heard alot of bad things yet about the GTO trannies yet... seems pretty solid so far...


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## cammed06 (Dec 12, 2006)

Oh yeah, welcome to the club. Don't stress about the mods if cost is in your interest. Enjoy the fruit of your labor in initial purchase. The mods will come.

Suggestion: Go for cheap mods that don't require tuning, first. Save up to buy and install mods that requiring tuning at once so you save on tune after tune. Beware that some of the free/cheap ls1 mods online may have a negative effect on other big mods later. Ask some of the ls1 guys prior to doing them. Also remember cutting something or bypassing something that you may have to replace before installing a power adder and you may only be gaining like 2 hp. You own a 3900lb car. 2 hp is hardly worth messing stuff up that you may need later. 

You bought a GTO, good job. They are definately the S***. Don't ever sell it. Buy a daily driver when you can afford monthly payments again. Think about your initial cost was for a 4-seat corvette. Not many people can afford that. You are one of the few.


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## nagoat (Oct 21, 2006)

Rusty said:


> I guess you are right about the style of driving you expect should dictate whether you chose an M6 or a A4. I don't think the M6 can be claimed the victor based soley on performance though... There is no doubt an M6 will shred a set a tires faster than an A4. If you plan on difting fun then an M6 might be a better choice... The ability to have absolute control of the power to the wheels is the strong point for the M6.
> 
> I'm just saying you need to drive both and see what fits for you... For me the M6 just wasn't a match. I'd like to maybe race side-by-side the M6 vs the A4 to see how they match up... I get this feeling the A4 is not the slug many here think it is...
> 
> The A4 i've heard is a modification of a 3-speed tranny GM has been making since the 70s... longevity of these trannies are pretty good... I haven't heard alot of bad things yet about the GTO trannies yet... seems pretty solid so far...


i certainly wouldn't say an auto is a slug! personally i just favor a manual
cause it seems more fun to me. it also saves me a little brake wear.
the only car i've ever owned where clutch wear was an issue was a pontiac fiero. i've also never had 400 horses either. i guess time will tell, word on here seems to be stock clutches aren't that great in these. but i'm sure 400 hp is hard on autos as well.


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## Rusty (Jun 27, 2006)

whether the A4 or M6, the GTO really kicks some serious as...

I think what we have here is not really what car is better but what is a better car for the individual...

But debating about the benifits and shortcomings between the A4 and the M6 can only benifit newbees trying to decide one or the other. It's sortof hard to change the tranny after you buy the thing...


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## GoatBoy37 (May 30, 2006)

I had never owned a manual tranny in my life til I bought my 04 Goat. I had test driven an A4 04 before, and I just wasn't impressed. Test drove an M6 and I was hooked. 

I think part of it was the fact that the auto was so smooth that it was more deceptively quick than the auto, if that makes any sense. Sometimes I wish I got the auto, but I do love the stick. Always trying to perfect my shifts makes it fun. I would tend to think that from a roll, the manuals have the advantage, since one can choose the gear/rpm level they want. 

When I get in my car, and I've had a bad day, the shifting takes my mind off all my worries.


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## CPO's GTO (Jul 1, 2006)

cammed06 said:


> You bought a GTO, good job. They are definately the S***. Don't ever sell it. Buy a daily driver when you can afford monthly payments again. Think about your initial cost was for a 4-seat corvette. Not many people can afford that. You are one of the few.



:agree :cool


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## CPO's GTO (Jul 1, 2006)

What I like most about the M6 is that there is no way possible for me to 
safely talk on a cell phone and shift at the same time! (no Blue tooth here)


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

If you have arthritis in most of your joints, tennis elbow, bad knees and proned to getting sprained ankle... get the auto. If you're not that broken down yet and don't wear a diaper then get the stick... like I did :rofl:.


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## Rusty (Jun 27, 2006)

6QTS11OZ said:


> If you have arthritis in most of your joints, tennis elbow, bad knees and proned to getting sprained ankle... get the auto. If you're not that broken down yet and don't wear a diaper then get the stick... like I did :rofl:.



You forgot if you want to _pretend_ to be a racer and run the gears get the M6... but if your done pretending get whatever you want...


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## nagoat (Oct 21, 2006)

Rusty said:


> You forgot if you want to _pretend_ to be a racer and run the gears get the M6... but if your done pretending get whatever you want...


:lol: :rofl: yaaahooooo


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

Rusty said:


> You forgot if you want to _pretend_ to be a racer and run the gears get the M6... but if your done pretending get whatever you want...


If you saw the little laughing guy at the end of my statement you'd know I was kidding. You seem to be the only one posting who's a little worked up about this manual versus auto thing. The bottom line is get what you want. No one had any influence on me getting a manual. I got what I liked and that's that. And no I didn't get a manual to pretend to be a racer. Having a "manual" does not equate to "racer". It's what I prefer. If I want to drive an auto, I'll drive my '04 Maxima. Calm down! It's not that serious.


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## bg2m8o (Jul 25, 2006)

Bump
The A4 is a sweet gearbox. Strong as heck. For most drivers who have not used manual gearboxes for their whole life, they are likely on average quicker of the line. That being said, autos with their planet gears, clutch packs and bands contribute more parasitic driveline loss than do sliding gear manuals. A good driver with a manual will kill an auto on the street and through the twisties.

Buy what suits you better, if you want to be a stoplight drag winner on the street - the auto, if you want to carve canyons and generally enjoy the driving experience - go with the manual.

IMHO, a drivers car for the street has a manual gearbox. The auto trans goes in the Suburban.


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## Rusty (Jun 27, 2006)

6QTS11OZ said:


> If you saw the little laughing guy at the end of my statement you'd know I was kidding.



Ya I know... I was just trying to trash talk ya...


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

Rusty said:


> Ya I know... I was just trying to trash talk ya...


That's cool :cheers


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## BILLYGTO (Dec 12, 2006)

Yeah, I'm going to have to drive the auto and the M6 back to back. If I feel like they are both the same I may go with the auto as I will be driving this thing daily unless it's snowing. *Then my Silverado* So the Auto will serve be better in traffic. If the A4 feels 'weak' compared to the m6 then I'll go manual. My only complain with driving the manual is that it seemed a little notchy going from say 4th or 3rd gear down to 2nd. *My guess is that this is similar to a 1st gear lockout to keep you from shifting into the wrong gear* but it still didn't feel 'right' if you know what I mean. Is this something I'll get used to or is it something that changes once the car breaks-in? *I'm just comparing this gearbox to the manual tranny's I've had in other vehicles*


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