# 65 vs 66: Pros/Cons/Opinions



## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

I've been focusing on the 66 because that's what I had when I was a kid; however,......the 65 is a damn good looking car.

Let me hear your expertise, what should I know about the 2 cars before I make a final decision.

Thanks (AGAIN),

Pesty Rick


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

I like the `65 cause it's a one year off car. `65 is "The Great One". It's smaller then the `66-67s and except for the rear window, has better lines too. Parts are a little harder to find for the `65s then the later cars, but they can be found. Seems like all I see is the `66 and `67 GTOs at the shows, I rarely see another `65.


----------



## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Rukee

When you say "parts are harder to find", I assume you mean body/interior parts vs eng/trans/susp?

Also, it is my understanding the GTO package was an option for the 65 Lemans, how do I know if the car(s) I'm looking at are real GTOs? 237?

Thanks
Rick


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Yes, they are reproducing almost everything for the `66 and `67s, but not too much for the `65s. Example, the vinyl top trim, you can buy them brand new repo for a `66 but have to find them used for the `65 cause no one makes them. The tail panel too, not available yet in repo.
The vin will start with 2373 for a 1965 GTO.


----------



## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

For me, the 66-67 has a more "refined" look to it. The 65 has a harder edge look in the tail lights and roof line. I have loved the look of the coved rear window on Pontiacs, Chevelles and Buicks since they were introduced. I like the 65, I just prefer the 66-67 body. As Rukee points out, I don't see as many 65's around or for sale and the parts availability is a consideration.
Happy hunting........:cheers


----------



## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

Koppster said:


> Also, it is my understanding the GTO package was an option for the 65 Lemans, how do I know if the car(s) I'm looking at are real GTOs? 237?


The 64 and 65 GTOs manufactured at the Pontiac, MI. and the Kansas City, MO. plants will include a 5N on the accessories code area of the data plate. There is no way to tell if a car manufactured at the Fremont, CA. or Baltimore, MD. plants are true GTOs without ordering a PHS report. The 6 cylinder 65 lemans will have a 6 for the 8 digit of the vin.

For 65 a 23727 vin is a Lemans post coupe, the 23737 vin is a Lemans hardtop and the 23767 vin is a Lemans convertible. All of these were available for the GTO option.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I've had several of each over the years, and still have a '65 hardtop. I started with a '66, and went from there. My opinion: '65 is a "purists" GTO: not as flashy as the '66-'67, and not as long or heavy. Most '65 owners are real "Car guys" and are into performance over flash. (The '66-'67's are much leaner than the '68=up, though). I like the detail work on the '65: Metal grille cups, metal dash (much nicer than the '66
'67), killer tail light panel, ribbed tail lights: It's a clean, crisp, lean, no-opologies muscle car. It has a high quality interior and fitments. People built good stuff in '65. It isn't tacky (like a roadrunner) or in your face. It cruises softly and carries a big stick.....
Now for the '66: I love the '66. Gorgeous cars. What lines. It has the best engine of the early goats: a tripower 389 with the BIG center carb on the tripower. It puts out a noticable power increase over the '65, and it needs it, because the car is heavier. The '66 is a great looking car, more sculpted than the '65. I like the overall bodystyle better than the '65, and the interior pleating on the buckiets is just, well, boss. They made more '66's than any other year GTO. I love the louvered tail lights. What I don't like: the big, flat, plastic dash with the wood veneer over it. I think it's a downgrade from a '65. Bottom line, it's up to you. What do you like? Me, I like ALL the early goats, but especially '65--'67. It's been 18 years since I sold my '66......I still have the tripower setup, and I'm working on getting another one!
Jeff


----------



## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

:agree Well put about the leaner, meaner look of the 65. Glad you brought up the cheesy dash/console on the 66-67s. I don't care for wood grain in any vehicle and prefer the black of the L/T series. Chev did that to the Camaro too in 68-69 years. Detroit stopped using trees in the cars back in the 30's why did they feel the need to put a wood grain sticker on some models ??


----------



## wytnyt (May 17, 2008)

would some one decode this plate with the options listed 
thx


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

My wood grain is real wood.


----------



## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

wytnyt said:


> would some one decode this plate with the options listed
> thx


Your car was built the 4th week of May and was the 752nd post coupe built in Baltimore in 67, the interior trim was Gold with bucket seats and the exterior color was Montego Cream. 

The Baltimore plant listed no accessory codes on the data plate. You will have to use PHS for the accessory codes.


----------



## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

wytnyt said:


> would some one decode this plate with the options listed
> thx


05D.....built 4th week of May 1967
24207 .....GTO 2 DR. Sport Coupe (pillar)
221......Gold bucket seat interior
TT.........Montego Cream top and bottom, no vinyl roof 
G..... I believe is for a console so the power glide shifter would be mounted there too. 
The other numbers are the sequence number(VIN) and a plant code.


----------



## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Rukee said:


> My wood grain is real wood.


I thought I had seen some with wood veneer peeling instead of vinyl. That must have been another 65 only application ?


----------



## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

You guys rock, thanks for taking the time to reply.

However, now I'm really confused, 65 or 66. What to do? 

The VIN code on the 65 is a little confusing for me, I fished around on GTO alley and came to the following conclusion:

You can't be certain if a 65 Lemans (37-series) is a true GTO "unless" you have the build sheet. The build sheet will show option "382" if the car was produced with the GTO option (aka true 65 GTO).

Yes/No? ....and thanks!

Happy Turkey Day to All
Rickster


----------



## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

PS: Here's a 65 that really trips my trigger (same dealer selling the Gold 66). 

Negatives (for Rick) are no AC and the price.

1965-PONTIAC-GTO--NAPOLI CLASSICS-(203) 783 5850


----------



## ChromeCoach10 (Oct 26, 2008)

Too Many Projects pretty much hit the nail on the head. 

Decoding what accessories your car came with is a little more challenging because Baltimore was the only plant not to list any accessory codes on the data plate at all (at least in 1967).

PHS-Online.com is the holy grail of information. A must if you are buying a GTO.


----------



## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Koppster said:


> PS: Here's a 65 that really trips my trigger (same dealer selling the Gold 66).
> 
> Negatives (for Rick) are no AC and the price.
> 
> 1965-PONTIAC-GTO--NAPOLI CLASSICS-(203) 783 5850


Investment grade price at a hobbyist level. For that price, I would expect a frame off resto, not an incomplete spray can paint job underneath.


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

^ I see a few of the `65s with the sweet lookin `64 wood wheel like that one, but I have never seen one with the teal wood gear shift knob too like mine has.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Too Many: '65 AND '66 GTO's both used real walnut veneer on their dashes. '67 used vinyl, but this thread is about '65 and '66 GTO's. I prefer the narrow, gauge-width facia of the '65 dash, with all that cool ribbed chrome below the dash, matching the console. The '66 has the same cool, ribbed console as the '65, but no matching ribbed chrome dash trim. The '87 console is vinyl insert, not my favorite. I have it in my '67 ragtop.


----------



## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

geeteeohguy said:


> Too Many: '65 AND '66 GTO's both used real walnut veneer on their dashes. '67 used vinyl, but this thread is about '65 and '66 GTO's. I prefer the narrow, gauge-width facia of the '65 dash, with all that cool ribbed chrome below the dash, matching the console. The '66 has the same cool, ribbed console as the '65, but no matching ribbed chrome dash trim. The '87 console is vinyl insert, not my favorite. I have it in my '67 ragtop.


Cool....thanks..... I guess I haven't looked at enough yet to have made the connection of which years had what.


----------



## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

Koppster said:


> PS: Here's a 65 that really trips my trigger (same dealer selling the Gold 66).
> 
> Negatives (for Rick) are no AC and the price.
> 
> 1965-PONTIAC-GTO--NAPOLI CLASSICS-(203) 783 5850


My 2 cents on this car;

Original, unrestored and well documented cars such as this car are worth more than frame off restored cars. This car is an excellent example of a survivor and if the economy were better $53 K would be a good price. He is open to offers and if you are interested it may be worth your time to give him a call.


----------



## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

05GTO said:


> My 2 cents on this car;
> 
> Original, unrestored and well documented cars such as this car are worth more than frame off restored cars. This car is an excellent example of a survivor and if the economy were better $53 K would be a good price. He is open to offers and if you are interested it may be worth your time to give him a call.


History & Comments

This rare tri-power 360 HP GTO was bought new at Easton Pontiac INC. Brockport, NY. A completely P.H.S. Documented GTO with history showing only 65,395 original miles. A frame on restoration was 3,000 miles ago. New paint engine and transmission rebuilt. This car was featured in collectible automobile and muscle car calender in 1994. This is a very rare and original GTO.

Added Factory Features

(501) Power Steering, (502) Power Brakes, (531) Tinted Glass All, (393) AM-FM radio, (474) Verb Speaker, (454) Tilt Wheel, (691) Rally I Wheels, (504) Rally Gauge And Tach, (691) Aluminum Front Drum, (701) Safe-T-Track, (524) Wood Steering Wheel

I don't mean any disrespect but this car doesn't fit my understanding of an "original, unrestored, survivor". It has new paint, new engine and rebuilt trans. Does that mean they rebuilt the originals or were they already missing and it doesn't have it's "born with" drivetrain ? It isn't clear from their description. 
Also, many of the "desirable" options were added on (presumably at the time of restoration) to enhance it as an investment grade car. I'm not saying it isn't a nice example or desirable, but 53k ? In my opinion, you would need to reverse the numbers to be realistic.


----------



## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Back to VINS, read some more and now believe you can confirm a true 65 GTO by accessory code N on the VIN plate. Specifically, it would say 5N.

Yes?

Thanks
Rickster


----------



## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

Too Many Projects said:


> I don't mean any disrespect but this car doesn't fit my understanding of an "original, unrestored, survivor". It has new paint, new engine and rebuilt trans. Does that mean they rebuilt the originals or were they already missing and it doesn't have it's "born with" drivetrain ? It isn't clear from their description.
> Also, many of the "desirable" options were added on (presumably at the time of restoration) to enhance it as an investment grade car. I'm not saying it isn't a nice example or desirable, but 53k ? In my opinion, you would need to reverse the numbers to be realistic.


We are both entitled to our opinions, I can say we agree on the price of $53 being too high for this economy. If I were in the market I would offer quite a bit less, maybe $35k. I read the ad again and checked the PHS, he is a used car salesman!




Koppster said:


> Back to VINS, read some more and now believe you can confirm a true 65 GTO by accessory code N on the VIN plate. Specifically, it would say 5N.
> 
> Yes?
> 
> ...





05GTO said:


> The 64 and 65 GTOs manufactured at the Pontiac, MI. and the Kansas City, MO. plants will include a 5N on the accessories code area of the data plate. There is no way to tell if a car manufactured at the Fremont, CA. or Baltimore, MD. plants are true GTOs without ordering a PHS report. The 6 cylinder 65 lemans will have a 6 for the 8 digit of the vin.
> 
> For 65 a 23727 vin is a Lemans post coupe, the 23737 vin is a Lemans hardtop and the 23767 vin is a Lemans convertible. All of these were available for the GTO option.


----------



## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 05GTO 
The 64 and 65 GTOs manufactured at the Pontiac, MI. and the Kansas City, MO. plants will include a 5N on the accessories code area of the data plate. There is no way to tell if a car manufactured at the Fremont, CA. or Baltimore, MD. plants are true GTOs without ordering a PHS report. The 6 cylinder 65 lemans will have a 6 for the 8 digit of the vin.

For 65 a 23727 vin is a Lemans post coupe, the 23737 vin is a Lemans hardtop and the 23767 vin is a Lemans convertible. All of these were available for the GTO option. 


Okay, I think I get it:

Pontiac MI/KC MO = 5N on the VIN plate
Fremont CA/Baltimore = get a copy of the build sheet from PHS and look for option 382.

Thanks Randy/All for your patience with my novice questions!

Rick


----------



## 65GHOST (Dec 5, 2008)

Hi fellows new to forum I have a 65 love the lines. Going to start going threw suspension I like the way 05GTO (Randy) red goat sits. Was wondering if you had any tips or which parts (spring heights,etc) to use to make her stand proud. The guy I bought the car from has a set of monroe air shocks on rear rides like a log wagon & has cut one of the back tires from bottoming out. Need help want to make it right the first time nice rake-nice pleasant ride. Also think 3:36 would make her stop screaming at 70mph has 12-bolt posi rearend. All tips are welcome. Thanks


----------



## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

65GHOST said:


> Hi fellows new to forum I have a 65 love the lines. Going to start going threw suspension I like the way 05GTO (Randy) red goat sits. Was wondering if you had any tips or which parts (spring heights,etc) to use to make her stand proud. The guy I bought the car from has a set of monroe air shocks on rear rides like a log wagon & has cut one of the back tires from bottoming out. Need help want to make it right the first time nice rake-nice pleasant ride. Also think 3:36 would make her stop screaming at 70mph has 12-bolt posi rearend. All tips are welcome. Thanks


Welcome to the fun !! arty:
I can't give you specifics on springs to use, but if it has airshocks that are jacked up now and the tires hit, you need to change the rear tire/wheel combination. Either they are just too wide for the body or the wheel has too little offset on the inside. PICS would help a LOT too. 
There are many aftermarket sources for rear springs nowadays, but back in the dark ages, if we wanted the rear raised without the airshocks (which usually caused severe wheel hop) we went to the dealer and bought stationwagon springs to lift it and found truck shocks to match or adapt for improved handling and reduce the tendency for wheel hop....

Maybe start a new thread of your own, so we don't have to dig this one out of the spiderwebs...


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Too Many is right on the money with the advice. Get some different rims/wheels. They're sticking out too far. I have 3.36 gears in both of my GTO's, and love them. They are WAAY better over the road than 3.55's or 3.90's with a stock height tire. I WISH I had 3.23's, which are my favorite gear for the early goats. Rukee has Air Lift spring helper/load levelers in his '65. Air Lift has been made for GTO's since they were new, and they were used back in the day at the dragstrp to help hook-up. I have a set on my 4Runner, and love them. I HATE air shocks (Hijackers, etc). Never again!!! Good luck.
Jeff


----------



## ppurfield001 (Jan 21, 2008)

Koppster said:


> I've been focusing on the 66 because that's what I had when I was a kid; however,......the 65 is a damn good looking car.
> 
> Let me hear your expertise, what should I know about the 2 cars before I make a final decision.
> 
> ...



Rick:

I earned my undergraduate degree at the State University of New York College at Brockport. The dealership that sold the car in which you are interested was also in Brockport, NY. Brockport is located in Upstate New York in the snow belt. When I was there during the early Seventies, salting the roads was the way to make roads passable during the winter months. As I recall, the muffler stores in the area did a lot of business replacing rusted-out straps that held automobile gas tanks in place. 

Be very careful of rust issues with this car, especially with respect to the chassis.

Good luck,
Paul


----------



## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Virtually any vehicle that has spent it's life North of I70 and East of I29 has seen enough salt to float a whale. That's why us "rustbelt" people like to look for cars in the dry Southern states. I'd much rather gut a sun bleached interior to replace than cut out and weld in all new floors, trunk, quarter panels, fenders, etc. etc.


----------



## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Paul/Mitch

Excellent point, I am going to have to add another checklist item to my search.

No snow belt cars!!!

Got it!

Thanks,
Rick


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

You can buy one in the snow belt, just as long as it was not driven in the snow. Which, most are not.


----------



## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Rukee said:


> You can buy one in the snow belt, just as long as it was not driven in the snow. Which, most are not.


The key is where they spent their first 10-15 years. 99% of these cars were daily drivers and driven year round. By the time most of them were 10-15 years old they were rusty, worn out and parked, scrapped, etc. If they have been restored in the past 20 years, then they probably haven't seen snow, but there could be hidden rust eating away unseen. My dad bought a 1966 Malibu hard top spankin new and eventually gave it to me when it was 12 years old. It was a rust bomb. Instead of keeping it to restore, I cleaned it up, replaced the worn out engine and sold it. It wasn't anything special so it most likely was never fully restored and may no longer exist. 
By contrast the 88 IROC I'm trying to sell lived in Killeen TX for 10 years and then went to TN. It has NO rust issues. I can crawl under it, loosen a chassis/suspension bolt with a wrench and turn it out by hand. Similar cars from _this _state have no floors left and only come apart with a gas wrench. 
If a rustbelt car has been properly restored, it's worth considering, but there are a lot of _bondo_ resto's out there and any potential buyer needs to look very closely at the quality of the rebuild. I'm not discouraging Rick from buying a northern, just be careful when the history indicates that's where it's from....... He already lives in the part of the country that I try to find my project cars in.


----------

