# Novice Pontiac Guy



## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

So I have to be honest. I never cared much for the GTO. Then I saw this History Channel documentary on the car and changed my mind. I wanted a 64 or 65 because the lines were more straight. And by the dumbest luck, I stumbled onto a 64 Convertible. So I drove a day and a half to get to the damn place. When I finally got to the car I could not believe what the lady had. This car was nearly all original. Never had body work on it, original top, original shocks, glass, mufflers, I mean almost everything. Except the engine, heads, and exhaust mainifolds. 

Now the crap part is I did not realize how hard parts are to find for this thing. I normally would not have cared if parts were original but everyone who sees the car tells me how rare the thing is and that I should keep it as close to original as i can.The front hood has a crease in it and I would like to replace it but it is hard to find a replacement. I found an engine block with the correct date code and cast number. I plan to have it decked and restamped to match the PHS for it. But can not find 9770716 heads for it. 

So begins my fustration with the pontiacs. I must have ordered at least 4 phs on different cars but they all came back as plain lemans. On the 5th I got a good hit. But what I noticed is there was no consistancy between where the cars were made. Even the fremont factory stamped the cowl plated differently between night and day shift. Some had the 5n most do not. 

So anyway I need to get 20 posts on here before I ask or post for the parts. So please bear with me and these posts.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Nice find!
I was trying to find a '67-'68 steering wheel but the ones on Fleabay were worse than mine and the recaster I contacted wanted 12 hundred bucks.
I am in the process of restoring it, it is filled and primed and ready for paint.
It took me awhile to find the stock 6" water pump pulley but I did located one.
Go to Frank's Pontiac site, see what he has and check his links page.
A lot of these guys are old skool that have these parts and don't do the net so you have to play by their rules and get on the phone.


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## ibarbuckle (Feb 24, 2014)

What makes do you have experience with? I would bet most of us are just used to the parts situation, but if you're coming from, say, Chevy, I can imagine the shock.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

ibarbuckle said:


> What makes do you have experience with? I would bet most of us are just used to the parts situation, but if you're coming from, say, Chevy, I can imagine the shock.


I walked the entire Pomona Swap meet and there were tons of Chevy and Ford parts, the only Pontiac stuff was a tach and a vacuum gauge.
I was looking for an oil pan and could have bought dozens of them for Chevys, not one for a Pontiac.
I walked the classic cars for sale, Impalas, woodies even a stretch '59 Caddy but not one GTO.


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

tonyskala, So your finding out that many of the cars you are looking at that you think are GTOs are not. Don't add to that misconception by stamping an engine block code that is not correct. Some future owner will think they have the original engine to the car when it is not (because of you).


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

"And by the dumbest luck, I stumbled onto a 64 Convertible."

*-*GTO?:thumbsup:

"So begins my fustration with the pontiacs. I must have ordered at least 4 phs on different cars but they all came back as plain lemans."

*-*The '64-'65 GTO was an option on the Lemans and not a separate model, thus the Lemans.:bigSmile:

"I found an engine block with the correct date code and cast number. I plan to have it decked and restamped to match the PHS for it."

*My opinion*- I find this sort of thing underhanded. I don't condone this type of thing any more than removing the vin/data plate from one rust bucket of a car and placing it on another rust free body and claiming/selling it as original to reclaim a higher "original resale value" to an unsuspecting car enthusiast. -sorry, just how I feel about it.:frown2:


"Now the crap part is I did not realize how hard parts are to find for this thing. I normally would not have cared if parts were original but everyone who sees the car tells me how rare the thing is and that I should keep it as close to original as i can."

-Yes, the '64 GTO convertible would be a "rare" car. In 1965, the engine was somewhat redesigned, so your engine falls into the '64 and earlier design which also makes it unique among GTO's. I frequent cars shows/swap meets and find Pontiac cars or parts to be in extremely low numbers with parts commanding high prices. Anything that is not Chevy or Ford always pulls higher prices whether you are restoring or rebuilding. The cautionary part is that you can wind up investing more money in the car than you will get in return, even if it is "rare." :yesnod:


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## ibarbuckle (Feb 24, 2014)

Goat Roper said:


> I walked the entire Pomona Swap meet and there were tons of Chevy and Ford parts, the only Pontiac stuff was a tach and a vacuum gauge.
> I was looking for an oil pan and could have bought dozens of them for Chevys, not one for a Pontiac.
> I walked the classic cars for sale, Impalas, woodies even a stretch '59 Caddy but not one GTO.


Seems about right. Except for the occasional '67, I never see Pontiacs out and about. Motivated me to join the local GTOAA.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

So I talked to a few people in the bay area that are genearlly accepted to be the best at restoring about the re-stamping. They said it is totally acceptable to do it but that it is illegal to pass it off as an original block to the car if I ever sell it. And that if i ever do try to sell it I have to include at the min form of legalise that the block is "restored" but that i really should say it is has been re-stamped. I also toyed with the idea of the idea of just decking the block and leaving it blank. It is 64 gto block just not the 79j one I need. I really am torn about it because the block is real gto block and decking it would ruin it for someone who could really use the 4 barrel manual block as opposed to the 4 barrel auto. The only reason I am even considering it is I don't really know the condition of the block. It may very well be toast. I will make a decision on it when we put it apart. I will keep looking for a 79j but they are really hard to find. 

I am not trying to be dodgy about it. I dont think I will ever sell the the car and the more and more I think about it I dont know why I care if the block matches. I dont think I will ever actually put it in the car. It will just sit in my garage. 


So yeah I have done a few fords and I am not used to having to hunt for these parts. I have a Camaro as well and for that you can even buy a full shell, so there is no shortage of parts for it, But man these gto parts really are unicorns


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Pontiacs are a little tougher to find original parts that are reasonably priced. Plenty of aftermarket items, but they sometimes don't fit or work as original without modification. With the Camaro stuff, I think you could actually build a brand new car with little effort and a fat wallet.:smile2:

If you plan on keeping the car long term, then shelve the '64 block and trans and update with a 1965 and up engine/trans. Doing this alone should make it easier to rebuild and get parts. I would go with a 1968 and up 400CI as you get the open chamber heads which are somewhat better. Many options when it comes to engine part selection. You build a Pontiac engine for torque and not RPM, so it is a different approach than a Chevy build. Do your homework and draw up a plan on the engine/trans combo based on what you want the car to do.:thumbsup:

And if you build it right, the Camaro will be collecting dust because you'll want to drive the GTO all the time.:lol:


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

My steering wheel will need to be restored as well. I am curious on how you did it. 

I read that the fillers are not the way to go. The guy I talked to had a mold made and said he breaks off the bakalite or what ever it was on the original wheel and will recast the whole thing using the exsisting metal already in the wheel for support. He will cast it in one piece. He told me that he tried the expoxy fillers and it just did not work as well. 

So how did you do it? 

I am in good with my old shop teacher from high school and he told me a while back i could use the small foundry they have to cast anything i want out of Aluminum as long as I pay for the Al and electrcity to fire the furnace. Oh and there is a limitation to the size of stuff I can cast. about 18 inches by 6 inches and the clay they have is not fine so it is not the best for finish pieces. And I can not do really complex parts. because I can not do a wax casting. But a wheel could be done. 

I tried to do a door handle and It actually came out but it was extreemly hard to get the finish right after I broke it out of the mold. I had 2 hours in sanding and finishing in it so it hardly made it worth it. It was more of a proof of concept.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

"My steering wheel will need to be restored as well. I am curious on how you did it."

I bought the kit from Eastwood and made up a jig so I could spin it for paint.
Dremel to grind out the cracks and bore anchor holes then pack with filler.
I used files to get the rough contour and then round and flat sticks as mandrels for the sandpaper starting with 120 and ending with 800.
I then primed and used black lacquer the last coat is drying now.
Light scuff with green scotchbrite between coats.
I am going to wait a week then shoot it with the 2 part clear to put a hard surface on it.
My buddy is on his way up with the wheel off of his 56 Ford that needs to be repaired.

Here is a pic, there were two cracks in the hub in this area and on both sides of all 3 arms where they meet the wheel.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

If you remove the block number, you have a de-valued block. At least it's a GTO block. The ONLY reason to restamp a block is to perpetrate FRAUD, period. To have the engine appear to be what it's not. I've heard all the BS about 'disclosing it when I sell it, but I'm never going to sell it, etc. etc.'....if it's changed or altered, it is meant to deceive. No way around that.....And I think it's morally the wrong thing to do. Good luck with your project. PS: I've owned various GTO's in the past 40 years and would LOVE to 'stumble arcross' a '64 ragtop. Hasn't happened yet, though.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

I wouldn't restamp it, like GTOG said no other reason than to commit fraud.
I don't want to stumble across another goat at least not right away, one money pit at a time.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

*Restamping*

I had no idea so many folks were so passionate about the re-stamping. I get where you guys are coming from. And I bring it up because i am genuinely confused about it. I hear two different opposing points. So I realize a guy on the net saying " hey it will never be resold " or " no I am not going to defraud anyone" carries as much weight as a guy telling his bookie " i honestly intended to bet on every winner of the supper bowl for the past 20 years" So I won't write it even though I really dont think I would defraud someone. 

But , I have been looking into this for a while. It appears that it is acceptable to restamp the block. This is from the Bloomington Gold's Procedures and Protocols pages 4 & 5. 
________________________________________________________
RESTORATION vs. COUNTERFEIT
Bloomington Gold does not necessarily consider "re-stamping" to be counterfeiting. If the "re-stamp" was done with the intention of restoring or replacing the original numbers rather than deceiving, Bloomington Gold does not consider that to be counterfeit. 

Bloomington Gold uses Webster's Dictionary to define the difference in terms:

restoration: "To renew; to put back into existence or bring back to a former or original state." For Example:
1. Repainting an original Tuxedo Black Corvette with Tuxedo Black paint.
2. Restamping an original block with the same CID/Suffix/VIN as that block had when it left the factory.

counterfeiting: "To make an imitation of something else with the intent to deceive or defraud." For Example:
1. Repainting an original Glen Green Corvette with Riverside Red paint and changing the trim tag so it appears it left the factory as a Riverside Red Corvette.
2. Replacing the engine in a small block Corvette with a big block and making the CID/Suffix/VIN stampings appear that the Corvette left the factory as a big block.
3. Replacing the carburetor on an engine with a fuel injection unit and altering the block numbers and suffix code to make it appear it left the factory as a fuel injection Corvette.

Again guys I am not writing this to be a jerk. I honestly don't know if it is good or bad to do it. But it is certainly legal to do it. I dont know about the ethics of it. But after the responses I have seen I am leaning towards not doing it.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

How do you think the lacquer will hold up after a while. With the friction on the wheel from your hands, with the heat from the sun and all. 

How many hours do you have in it? I have 2 cracks in mine about 2 to 3 mm wide. I can see the metal bar running through the center. The cracks on mine have cracked all the way around. Like cutting a carrot or cucumber. 

I will check out this kit you mentioned. Thanks for the info.


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

I interpret:

2. Restamping an original block with the same CID/Suffix/VIN as that block had when it left the factory.

The car came from the factory with a 79 code block with an Engine Unit Number of 12345. So you could restamp the original block (the block that was born to the car and no other block) 79 and 12345 (don't know why you would do that anyway unless it was unreadable) The block you have is not the original block that came in your car (born in the car from the factory) so you can't even restamp it based on number 2 in your Bloomington report. You have someone else's engine.

The definition of "an original block": The actual block that was born to the car at the factory. It does NOT say: Restamping of a repalcement block with the same CID/Suffix/VIN as that block had when it left the factory.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

tonyskala said:


> How do you think the lacquer will hold up after a while. With the friction on the wheel from your hands, with the heat from the sun and all.
> 
> How many hours do you have in it? I have 2 cracks in mine about 2 to 3 mm wide. I can see the metal bar running through the center. The cracks on mine have cracked all the way around. Like cutting a carrot or cucumber.
> 
> I will check out this kit you mentioned. Thanks for the info.


Maybe 4-6 hours, most of the time is spent waiting for the epoxy to dry and sanding, base primer to dry and 3 coats of lacquer go pretty quick.
The dremel makes pretty quick work out of prepping the cracks.
The cracks going all the way around is normal and from all the pics I have seen they are all like that.
Once I had it primed I could see 4 more hairline cracks so I ground them out, epoxied them, sand and re prime.

The lacquer isn't the final coat once it hardens it will get a light scuff with a Scotchbrite then the final clear with Sikkens high gloss with a hardener added.
If you don't have a small cup gun Eastwood sells a 2k high gloss clear in a spray bomb that mixes in the can but it is pricey and you only have 24 hours to use it before it goes off in the can.

There are a few tutorials on U tube that show you how to grind out the cracks and drill the anchor points, you want a jagged edge for the epoxy not straight lines or the cracks will have a tendency to come back.
I used blue painter's tape out 1/4" so when you apply the epoxy then peel it off once the area is packed so you don't get excess where you don't want it.
It will pull some feathers up when you do this, just leave them and strike them down with a file when it hardens.

I guess I will find out how it holds up, my only other option is to have it recast for 1200+ shipping and insurance or use an aftermarket wheel and neither of those options is going to happen.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

geeteeohguy said:


> If you remove the block number, you have a de-valued block. At least it's a GTO block. The ONLY reason to restamp a block is to perpetrate FRAUD, period. To have the engine appear to be what it's not. I've heard all the BS about 'disclosing it when I sell it, but I'm never going to sell it, etc. etc.'....if it's changed or altered, it is meant to deceive. No way around that.....And I think it's morally the wrong thing to do. Good luck with your project. .




This. 

Let me ask , why would you restamp the block unless it was to fool someone? That would be the only reason. It's not for _*your*_ piece of mind because you _*know*_ it's restamped. :rant:


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

So I did not write it down earlier but after I read what is the acceptable definition is I thought that decking a 78 block and restamping it 79 seemed to not be in line with what I precieved the intent to be. 

That being said my counter argument would be repainting a car with the factory color tuxedo black the car left the factory with is no different. If you repainted the car - Would you say factory orginal color or repainted with orginal color/ factory orginal paint or repainted with factory orginal paint / orginal paint color / car has been repainted with factory color made by dupont ? 

And as for why would you want to restamp it? Well I think the paint analogy is relevant. Why would you pick the factory Silver Mist Grey color as opposed to just a Dupont Grey. Because you want it to be as close to the orginal as possible. 

We dont really question paint because we expect it to deteriorate over 50 years. But I guess an engine seems different. 

I see your point, though. 

I am not sure I am going to do it but I did email the guy at Bloomington Gold. When I get his response I will post it here if he or she oks it. 

and Guys, I really am not trying to be dodgy about this. I am geninuely confused about it.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

OK, lets end the re-stamping discussion in a more clarifying situation I think we can really connect with.

If a woman, who has been married, had a couple kids, gets divorced and decides to have an operation to "restore" her virginity..........is she now a virgin as she was born?:confused Hymenorrhaphy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Tweist (Jan 14, 2012)

> 2. Restamping an original block with the same CID/Suffix/VIN as that block had when it left the factory.


I don't think that can be any more clear... re-stamping the block with the exact codes that block came with from the factory is fine... putting your car's info on any block except the original block is sketchy. Its no longer the original engine, why try to pass it off like it is. There is value in saying the car has its "correct" engine but once you go to making and calling it numbers matching you're implying that its original.

I would make the effort to keep the car as honest as possible, factory original paint is the born with paint... original color it just to make it look nice again and match its documents.


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

:agree I like the last 2 post (20 and 21)!!

Your counter argument with the paint: Your restamping the engine is equivalent of changing the paint from the factory color to another color and changing the cowl tag to make it look like the car came from the factory with this new color. You could repaint the car any color you like, as long as you leave the original cowl tag stamping alone allowing all to know that the car was born with a different color.


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## ibarbuckle (Feb 24, 2014)

Jim, you're killing me. 

And I think the point has been made.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Agreed ^ 

OP, What you are suggesting is FRAUD. Think about how you would feel paying a premium for a car that is not what it seems, whether it is a clone GTO represented as genuine or a car with a restamped block sold as having it's original block. People pay more for these for a reason, their inherent value is in their originality. 










And this thread is now closed.


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