# 1969 Mid Night Green GTO sits low in front



## dadspackard31 (Dec 2, 2019)

Hi All,

I notice the car sits low in the front. When I am cruising down the road and on some roads where there is a cross road with a hump and if I am doing a moderate speed (well maybe a little faster) the front end would bottom out.

On Friday I had new tires installed and took some picture of the A-ARMS.
Do the upper A-Arms look right to you all?
To me they seem like the lowering A-arms?

Could my issued be spring related?

Even thou I worked on cars in the 80's, owned a 1970 GTO and 1976 Gran Prix at one time I don't know all the ins and outs on these suspensions.


























Thanks for the help.


----------



## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

It does have a rake to it,upper arms look stock.Could be non stock springs


----------



## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

Agree with pontrc in that it looks quite low and those control arms look stock. You didn't mention if you knew the history of the front spings? Could just be stock and worn out or someone intentially lowered the front by installing a shorter/weaker spring or cut/relaxed some coils.


----------



## dadspackard31 (Dec 2, 2019)

Thanks for the reply's all.

I do not the history of the front springs. Previous owner did mention to me before I bought the GTO from him he had replace all the shocks. For the brand of shocks I am not sure and will take a look and see the next time I am over at my twins where I have the GTO stored now.

It does not bounce up and down while driving. It seems pretty stiff.

Like you guys stated it could be that the springs are just tired and it is time for replacement.

Guess for now I need to take it easy when it comes to the crowns/bumps and crossing the railroads.

Thanks again for you input and feedback.


----------



## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

dadspackard31 said:


> Thanks for the reply's all.
> 
> I do not the history of the front springs. Previous owner did mention to me before I bought the GTO from him he had replace all the shocks. For the brand of shocks I am not sure and will take a look and see the next time I am over at my twins where I have the GTO stored now.
> 
> ...


Standard shocks do not effect ride height. Sounds like you just have some old weak springs. Either way, the ride height isn't what you want and changing the springs will fix that. The rear springs are about as easy a replacement as you can get. the fronts, not so much. You can buy a set for well under $100. You can install them in your driveway, but unless you have some mechanical experience, its a challenge. Paying a shop to do it still isn't horrible. I'm not at the shop ATM to look it up exactly, but book time is probably on the order of 2-3 hours, so for a few hundred bucks labor and an alignment (you'll need one afterwards) it can be easily solved.


----------



## dadspackard31 (Dec 2, 2019)

Mine'sa66,

I received a quote from Coil Spring Specialties 
Front: $186.75 pair
Rear: $176.40 pair
That is without shipping and tax added.

Eaton Spring was about $17 more for the springs. Again without shipping or tax added.

May I asked where can you purchase springs for under $100

Thanks for the feed back.

Tom


----------



## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

dadspackard31 said:


> Mine'sa66,
> 
> I received a quote from Coil Spring Specialties
> Front: $186.75 pair
> ...


The rear springs I used for my 66 are AC part 45H2005. I bought them from Rock Auto for $44.85. 
Right this second they have a few choices for fronts on a 68 starting at $71.59


----------



## dadspackard31 (Dec 2, 2019)

Mine'sa66, 

Thanks for looking them up.

My GTO is a '69. Looks like they don't have the ACdelco fronts in stock.

Would you know the ACdelco number for the front springs?

Thanks


----------



## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

dadspackard31 said:


> Mine'sa66,
> 
> Thanks for looking them up.
> 
> ...


Wish I checked this while I was at work  When I'm back I'll see if I can dig it up.
Geez my old eyes, I looked quick and saw 68. I promise to do better with my nose in the book friday


----------



## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Mine'sa66 said:


> Wish I checked this while I was at work  When I'm back I'll see if I can dig it up.
> Geez my old eyes, I looked quick and saw 68. I promise to do better with my nose in the book friday


Totally get the age thing you’re a good person to help him mine


----------



## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

dadspackard31 said:


> Mine'sa66,
> 
> Thanks for looking them up.
> 
> ...


So I can get into most of my vendor's sites and their commercial catalogs. It looks like your 1969 hardtop GTO front spring is a one car wonder. I have been crossing part numbers for half an hour now and I would say the spring you want is AC 45h046 which is also Moog 5386. Mind you, this is not the correct spring by the catalog. It is however as close to the original as I can find in terms of spring rate/wire size/uncompressed length. It's the correct spring for a whole lot of really close years/models...68 GTO 69 Cutlass 69 Chevelle etc. Maybe this explains why you have the springs you do, not a ton of new ones out there. Also, maybe you are low because what isn't too hard to find are the correct convertible springs for 69 GTO and they're more than an inch shorter than hardtop. I do have a couple other resources at the shop that I cannot access from home, I will check, but I suspect there isn't going to be too much more. I'm sure some of the GTO guys here will have original books that might show numbers that could be crossed around. That's what I might have access to at work...factory numbers. Good luck I'll report any new info.


----------



## dadspackard31 (Dec 2, 2019)

Thanks Mine's66

Last year I found the 1969 Pontiac service manual online in pdf format.
What is nice about it I used the search feature and low and behold I found the Rocker Panel Height Figure. Hope it is legible.









Took a bike ride over to my twins where I have the GTO stored and took some measurements
Front rockers measures around 7.25 inches to the floor
Rears is at 9 inches to floor

Rear is spot on to the chart I posted. Front not even close.

It was brought to my attention on PY that radial tire heights are a little different to stock Bias Ply tire heights
27" tall bias ply tire
25/70/14 radials are 26.4" in diameter

The shocks are new installed by previous owner and are Monroe Sensa Tracs if that makes any difference or helps.

Thanks again all for the feedback and knowledge.
Tom


----------



## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Correct on the radials dp but I bet somebody put lowering or modified those springs as mine said.Shocks willl not change height on the front


----------



## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

dadspackard31 said:


> Thanks Mine's66
> 
> Last year I found the 1969 Pontiac service manual online in pdf format.
> What is nice about it I used the search feature and low and behold I found the Rocker Panel Height Figure. Hope it is legible.
> ...


Yes, you lost a little with the tires, but your ride height is quite low. If you don't want to go to the trouble/expense of changing out the springs right away, you can throw a baindaide on there. You can put coil spring spacers in. Couple different types, but they all work the same. Little blocks that get inserted into an extended spring that hold the coils apart. It's a baindaide, but it beats hammering the binders everytime you see a dip in the road. Get you by until you figure out the final plan.


----------



## dadspackard31 (Dec 2, 2019)

Mine,

I really appreciate your thoughts and comments. Yes I have seen these inserts and you are right its a bandaide unit I make the decision do I tackle changing out the springs now or wait until the end driving season.

Like others have stated it is a tuff job so I only want to tackle changing out these springs once.
Now i wish my stepdad still had his service station. It sure would make this job a little easier.

Sounds like you have been doing this for awhile. If this were your car would you just do the fronts and change the rears out at a later date?

Tom
P.s. This car has been in my family since 1958. I restored in mid 2000's


----------



## Nicobakkerz (Apr 30, 2020)

dadspackard31 said:


> Mine'sa66,
> 
> I received a quote from Coil Spring Specialties
> Front: $186.75 pair
> ...


I just got a set of rear springs from Speedway motors for my 65 GTO, they are stock height part #9106197, cost was $$66.81 including 2 day shipping and tax. Super easy install and the ride height is indeed correct now.


----------



## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

dadspackard31 said:


> Mine,
> 
> I really appreciate your thoughts and comments. Yes I have seen these inserts and you are right its a bandaide unit I make the decision do I tackle changing out the springs now or wait until the end driving season.
> 
> ...


Yes, I am a 35 year master tech. The rear springs are easy to change. I wouldn't change them though unless there's reason to. From your pic they look pretty good. But, if you want to go up or down or try and change the ride quality, that will be your opportunity. Rear springs are cheaper and much more available. There's no overlap in labor so to speak. If you were paying a shop to do them for you, you wouldn't save anything by doing them at the same time. Except for one thing...after changing ride height, you're going to want to get an alignment. Might be 2 paid alignments depending on the shop. With a little skill and some swearing you should be able to jamb a couple spacers in the fronts in the driveway yourself. Same deal though, you manage a significant pickup, watch your front tires. More than likley you won't really gain a lot of height, but they will compress less under load and not dive down as much.
BTW, Nice pic! I own a 1926 Model T. A few years back my wife and her sister sold their dad's 1905 Cadillac and 1913 T.


----------



## dadspackard31 (Dec 2, 2019)

Mine's,
Decided to just bite the bullet and order new springs for the front, back and few other tiny items from Ames.

Really appreciate all the feedback
Tom


----------



## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

If you do it yourself dp just be careful with those front springs , have enough support under those lower a arms not only a hard job but can be dangerous


----------



## dadspackard31 (Dec 2, 2019)

Pontrc,

I sure will. I will be renting a spring compressor and any other safety tools I need from Advance auto to do the job safely.

When I had my 1976 Gran Prix back in the 80's I did the rear Spings in the parking lot of the apartment I was living in at the time. I know totally different animal then the fronts. I never did attempt to do the fronts.


----------



## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

dadspackard31 said:


> Pontrc,
> 
> I sure will. I will be renting a spring compressor and any other safety tools I need from Advance auto to do the job safely.
> 
> When I had my 1976 Gran Prix back in the 80's I did the rear Spings in the parking lot of the apartment I was living in at the time. I know totally different animal then the fronts. I never did attempt to do the fronts.


I cannot find that there is a current AC part number for a front spring for your 69 GTO. Maybe's there's one out there, but it's beyond me. The ones I suggested should do the trick, or if you're ordering from a spring maker, they'll just make what you need.
There's not a ton of equipment you'll need. The rears are super easy. The fronts are a pain. You do not compress the springs, you move the lower control arm. There's 2 main methods; Separate the lower ball joint and open it from that angle or remove the control arm bolts and go from that side. Either way that control arm is LOADED when you do this so be careful.


----------



## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Dp when I did mine 10 yrs ago and this was doing all the suspension I did the lower ball joint route. Of course the ball joint was new anyway.I did not have the front end or engine to help with the ballast and when trying to compress the car was lifting off the floor. Had to put the engine in temporary to get it done. Don’t think a spring compressor is going to work on install so much of that spring is housed in the upper chassis. The other method Mine spoke of I would probably do on a rack not jack stands.Probably would replace lower ball joints too use Moog parts


----------



## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

pontrc said:


> Dp when I did mine 10 yrs ago and this was doing all the suspension I did the lower ball joint route. Of course the ball joint was new anyway.I did not have the front end or engine to help with the ballast and when trying to compress the car was lifting off the floor. Had to put the engine in temporary to get it done. Don’t think a spring compressor is going to work on install so much of that spring is housed in the upper chassis. The other method Mine spoke of I would probably do on a rack not jack stands.Probably would replace lower ball joints too use Moog parts


Yes, you will not enjoy trying to do the control arm bolt method on stands! If you're on a hoist, then that is by far easier than the ball joint method. I mentioned it as in my shop we installed about a zillion sets prying them in from the ball joint side. I hired a new old tech about 20 years ago and he brought that method to us. Hoping someone else might pick up a tip.


----------



## dadspackard31 (Dec 2, 2019)

Mine66,

I sent you a pm conversation.


----------



## dadspackard31 (Dec 2, 2019)

Hello Guys,

On Tuesday we (my twin and I) went to install the new rear Ames coil springs (S364 (firm)).
We compared the ones we pulled out to the Ames springs the original springs are much shorter.

Ames spring on the left and the spring we took out.


















My twin and I decided to go ahead and install the springs with some advice and feed back from the gents over on the PY forum.










Took some measurements on both sides and the ride height was at 9.25". I know they will settle over time. So with the shorter springs they are still within tolerance.

When we installed the new springs and with them being shorter in height they did not sit all the way up into the upper perch. Using the floor jack we lifted up differential slowing and I had to hold/guide the springs up into the the upper perch.

With the springs being shorter my concern is when the car is put on a frame lift the springs will drop out of the perches.
Has anyone else run in this problem?
How do you hold them in place if jacking car up by the frame?
Or just remember to always jack it up my the differential?

Also on Tuesday I tackled the driver side front. All I have left is removal of the upper control arm.
Going to replace ball joints and bushings. They are all in sorry shape.
With new ones install hopefully it will get rid of the creaking sounds when I jack the car up
















Wednesday night I tackled the passenger side. The upper control arm was not the easiest to get at the nuts (A/C car) to break loose. When they did finally break loose they were just spinning then I realized they broke loose from the frame. I know these are supposed to be pressed in Correct?

I have order new upper control arm bolts and nuts, arm bumpers, stabilizer (sway bar) bushings and links.

Passenger spring has this tag on it.
Is this a factor tag?
Could these possibility still be factor springs that came on the GTO?











Now it is time to get dirty in the cleaning process of the control arms for paint.

Thanks
Tom


----------



## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

That is a difference in height, I wonder if those were station wagon springs. Normally on jacking the car up the shocks will allow it to drop so far. On mine the springs do leave the purch also but not enough to come out


----------



## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Compare the front springs too DP, yes those studs for the upper control arms are pressed in


----------



## dadspackard31 (Dec 2, 2019)

Hi All,

Took the GTO out for a ride last weekened with my twin to his boys house in Indiana

As you can see it is sitting up much better now that I have replaced pretty much all the front suspension.


----------



## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Nice going DP!


----------



## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

dadspackard31 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Took the GTO out for a ride last weekened with my twin to his boys house in Indiana
> 
> ...


Looking good!


----------

