# 1964 Pontiac LeMans 326 converitble will not start



## saignee03 (10 mo ago)

Greetings all; recently acquired a nice 64 LM convert that has been sitting for about 4-5 years, and will not start after much work has been done. I replaced the fuel pump, installed a Pertronix Ignitor and replaced all tune up parts. The car is now getting fuel and has spark, albeit yellow and not blue. Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck did some very nice wiring under the dash which I have gone through and put back to stock because I was only getting 5.29 VDC at the coil which was too low. Now I have 6.29 VDC coming out of the ignition switch on the run leg which i think is still too low. Also the car appears to have some stuck piston rings, compression readings wet are as follows; 1-75, 3-90, 5-60, 7-90, 2-75, 4-75, 6-90, 8-30. I did pull the heads and the oil pan (engine was out of car) to do an initial visual inspection. The heads pass gas tightness. Bearings all looked great and almost 0 ridge at the top of the cylinders. Mileage shows 56000, could be original?? Timing is correct. It feels like it wants to start then runs out battery, new one coming. Looking at these compression readings makes me think that its just too low to want to start. 
Any thoughts, help, direction will be greatly appreciated.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

That's not much ignition primary voltage. On a whim I'd try running a 12 ga wire direct to the coil primary from the battery to see if that helps.

Bear


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

saignee03 said:


> Greetings all; recently acquired a nice 64 LM convert that has been sitting for about 4-5 years, and will not start after much work has been done. I replaced the fuel pump, installed a Pertronix Ignitor and replaced all tune up parts. The car is now getting fuel and has spark, albeit yellow and not blue. Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck did some very nice wiring under the dash which I have gone through and put back to stock because I was only getting 5.29 VDC at the coil which was too low. Now I have 6.29 VDC coming out of the ignition switch on the run leg which i think is still too low. Also the car appears to have some stuck piston rings, compression readings wet are as follows; 1-75, 3-90, 5-60, 7-90, 2-75, 4-75, 6-90, 8-30. I did pull the heads and the oil pan (engine was out of car) to do an initial visual inspection. The heads pass gas tightness. Bearings all looked great and almost 0 ridge at the top of the cylinders. Mileage shows 56000, could be original?? Timing is correct. It feels like it wants to start then runs out battery, new one coming. Looking at these compression readings makes me think that its just too low to want to start.
> Any thoughts, help, direction will be greatly appreciated.


The Pertronix should require 12V on Start and Run. Your numbers indicate a resistor/resistor wire - which most all points ignitions have.

Run a jumper wire right off your battery to the +Coil. Then when you crank, you will get 12V all times. It should fire up. You will have to remove the jumper wire to shut the engine off, but this will confirm the need for 12V at the coil in the Run mode and the need to eliminate the resistor wire.

You also want to make sure no wet spark plugs. If you flood the engine because you have pumped the gas pedal too much or the carb is leaking, the engine will also not start.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I've used the stock points-and-condenser distributors in all my GTO's for the past 44 years with zero issues. Have fixed and repaired countless HEI conversions over that same time span. Just today, my buddy with a '65 El Camino we built an engine for called me to tell me his HEI 'upgrade' had failed and left him stranded. He hates points and condensers for some reason and is convinced that 'they aren't reliable or good enough'. I would plug the stock distributor back in and drive the car.


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## saignee03 (10 mo ago)

Hi guys, thanks for the responses here. I did run the jumper direct to the coil and there is 12vdc across the coil in start and run but the car refuses any attempt to start. Plugs were damp but certainly not wet. I did have a spark tester on cylinder 1 and it blinked nice and bright. Timing is set to 6 BTDC. So I seem to have spark and fuel, compression is the only concern and with my numbers above, it certainly points in that direction. But the car doesn’t even try to start. Going to check spark on each cylinder next. I did put a shot of engine oil into each cylinder hoping to get better readings; some increased like Cyl 8 went from 10 up to 30. Wondering if I should try Marvel Mystery Oil or something else with more penetrating capabilities. It appears this is the original distributor and the points/condenser were simply an upgrade by a previous owner but the magnetic pickup had become delaminated and wasn’t getting a signal so I simply replaced what was already there. But that doesn’t seem to be the issue as I’m getting nice spark…at least at cyl 1. Will check the others. Any insight here is greatly appreciated.
Make it a great week gents and thanks for chiming in.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I missed the low compression on my first go-around. Sorry about that. You have insufficient compression for an easy start. I would verify that the cam timing is on and the timing chain has not jumped. If it has not, then follow up with a cylinder leak down test to verify rings (instead of leaky valves, etc). MMO is a great penetrating oil, as is Kroil or Mineral Spirits and ATF mixed (they don't seem to like to mix). It may need to soak for a long time. If it doesn't 'come back around', you are looking at a rebuild. Where are you located? A good friend of mine has a great-running '64 326 that is either super cheap or free. Also, 326 engines are excellent, unappreciated, durable engines and I have seen many of them scrapped/junked over the years because they were not 389's or bigger. My friend is in Los Angeles.


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## BLK69JUDGE (Jun 10, 2010)

Hello
and welcome
are you testing your compression with the carb primary throttle plates open
so the engine can actually suck some air in ?
also 
do I understand correctly the motor was out of the car 
you pulled the intake and heads
and
the engine has not fired up and ran after that ?

Scott


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

OK, let's re-group and go down a list of checks.

First, unknown if the engine ran prior to you pulling it and inspecting. No ridge is no uncommon with low compression engines and the lower mileage - my experience.

1964 326CI is shown to be 8.6 compression with the 2 Bbl carb. Using my '68 Service manual, it shows that a 8.6/9.2 compression ratio should have a cranking compression of 150-170 PSI @ an engine cranking speed of 155-165 RPM. This is with a fully charged battery and on a battery charger. All spark plugs removed. Carburetor fully opened - wired open.

Fresh gas, right? Not pulling it from the tank unless it has been drained/flushed? Replaced all rubber hoses with ethanol friendly hoses to ensure no swollen/dry rotted/cracked hoses pulling air?

What does "The heads pass gas tightness" mean? They didn't leak after an hour or so when you poured gas into each intake runner with the head turned up to see if gas seeped? Not really a worthy test as carbon build up can easily act as a dam. How about the "valve seal test" using a suction cup tool? So this kinda test isn't on my top 10 list.

After you do the compression test, which again, does not tell us too much since the engine has been sitting and not running prior to the test. Compression may be irrelevant with regards to the engine firing. I have a 1948 International that has a factory 6.0 compression ratio and many cars of that era and earlier had even less - and they fire right up and run great. So not starting/popping off due to low compression isn't a reliable claim - engine should still pop off.

You said, "Plugs were damp but certainly not wet." Not good. Plugs damp can be a problem - too much gas on the plugs and in the cylinders - ie flooded. Plugs should be dry - period. Clean/dry each plug. Make sure the gap is set at .035"-.032".

You said, "I did have a spark tester on cylinder 1 and it blinked nice and bright." Does the spark tester indicate the volts being seen at the plugs? Earlier you stated you had a weak yellow spark. Best way to check is to connect the plug to the plug wire and ground the plug out on the exhaust manifold or some other good ground and spin the engine over and observe the spark plug fire. If you don't see that snappy blue spark and it is a weaker yellow, then you don't have enough voltage getting to the plug. Is the engine grounded to the body/frame? This is a must and of you pulled the engine, you would have had to remove/unbolt the ground wire. The engine must be grounded, as well as the distributor to the block at its base.

Have you checked the crank timing mark against the rotor position on the No.1 plug? Pull the distributor cap, put your thumb over the spark plug hole, and have someone bump the engine over. You will feel the compression want to push your thumb off and this will indicate that you are on the compression stroke. Then watch the balancer as your timing mark comes around. Get it close to the 6 degrees TDC and you can move the balancer by hand to get it right on the pointer. Then see where your rotor points - should be at/close to the No.1 terminal on the cap.

If that looks good, do the timing chain slop/stretch test to see how tight/loose the timing chain/gears are while the dist.cap is off. Turn the balancer one way until the rotor just moves and stop. Mark a line on the balancer that lines up with the pointer. Rotate the opposite way until the rotor just moves and stop. Make another mark on the balancer. The distance between the 2 marks should be no more than about 5 degrees. You can verify by rotating the balancer back to the marked line and you should see the rotor just move when you hit the line. Any more than about 5 degrees of movement of the balancer as measured by the pointer means the chain/gears are worn.

Keep in mind that the Pontiac rotor goes Counter Clockwise (CCW). Some have set up their plug wires on a clockwise rotation like a Chevy and the engine will not start. Firing order goes CCW.

The Pertronix Ignitor is the coil, not the distributor? Assume still points? Your coil should have 2 wires. One will supply 12V when you hit the key switch in the "Start" position to fire up the engine. 12V gives the coil a good jolt and send a hot spark down to the plugs to fire the engine. Once started, the key is snapped to the "Run" position and the resistor wire going to the coil take over and supplies a lowered voltage from 7-8 volts. The lower voltage is all that is needed to run the engine. It also is what the points need so they do not burn up. 12V can prematurely burn up the contacts of the points. So with the engine running - 7-8V at the +Coil lug. 12V when cranking. The jumper wire used from battery to coil is just a temp test to ensure you have the 12V to fire the engine.

New cap and rotor - brass? Th cheapo aluminum electrodes are not a favorite. The brass electrodes/rotor are far superior. Make sure the cap is seated correctly and clocked correctly. Aftermarket is not always correct. Some use a rotor that is too short and the gap too wide for the spark to jump from rotor to cap electrode. The rotor should also be making good contact on the center electrode in the cap. I have had to bend that end up a little so it makes good contact. Check for this.

If points, several issues with bad condensors and cheap points made in China. A NOS Delco set from Ebay is the way to go and not very expensive. Better quality as that was factory. You can test the condensor to see if it spec's out correctly. Set the gap on the points when they open on the high side of the cam. Very easy to have the cam just a little off and then the points are not gapped correctly. Check that the black ground wire inside the cap has not pulled loose or is frayed.

You had the heads off. How did you re-install the rocker arms? Torqued down to 20-25 ft lbs? Have you checked to watch the rocker arm operation to see if they are all operating? Oil spurting from rocker arm oil spurt holes? A valve that is not closing completely, or not opening, will not seat and can cause an engine not to fire off. I would pull valve covers while spinning the engine for the compression check and observe the valve train operation.

So go through a step-by-step methodical check to see that all things check out. Shouldn't be any reason why the engine won't fire, or at least pop-off like it wants to fire.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Depending on the design of the engine, low compression can cause hard starting. My 1915 Model T with 4.5: 1 started easily with 50 psi compression. The engine was designed that way. My worn-out 1947 Chrysler was an absolute bear to start due to its weak compression....sometimes it needed to be jumped with a 12 volt to get it spinning fast enough. My boss had a worn out 36 HP VW Bug that was the same way. The OP's engine may indeed be capable of starting, but with 50% compression in 7 and 20% compression in 1, it won't run worth a darn. I recommend finding and fixing the low compression issue (especially the dead hole) before wasting a bunch of time with tuning issues.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

geeteeohguy said:


> Depending on the design of the engine, low compression can cause hard starting. My 1915 Model T with 4.5: 1 started easily with 50 psi compression. The engine was designed that way. My worn-out 1947 Chrysler was an absolute bear to start due to its weak compression....sometimes it needed to be jumped with a 12 volt to get it spinning fast enough. My boss had a worn out 36 HP VW Bug that was the same way. The OP's engine may indeed be capable of starting, but with 50% compression in 7 and 20% compression in 1, it won't run worth a darn. I recommend finding and fixing the low compression issue (especially the dead hole) before wasting a bunch of time with tuning issues.


Model T has 30 lbs of compression when hand cranking cold. Could be more, like 50-55 with those later cars using the electric starter to spin it over faster. Those engines can still run well on 20 lbs of compression - so apples/oranges comparison. I am sure if the OP could get it running by hand cranking, he would.

47 Chrysler? 6-volt system that works well when in good shape, not so good if the electrical system is not in top order. But still, it may have been had to fire, but ti did fire.

Bottom line is it should "pop" and even start, but if reading his post correctly, he is not getting anything. If he can get it running and heated up and even run it a few heat cycles, if the rings are indeed stuck, the heat cycles might free them.

He also did not say how he took the readings - this is why I posted the procedure just to make sure he is indeed getting the correct numbers.

And, if a valve is hanging open or not seating for some reason, cylinder pressures can also be off.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

T had 50-55 psi.....T's with 20psi won't start by hand crank. It would need to be towed at 30 mph to spin fast enough to bump start. Not a lot of crank speed generated with a forearm. 
The '47 Chrysler started easily after it was overhauled using the same old cables, starter, battery, etc. Compression is a _good _thing when it comes to starting. Honest. 
I agree the OP's car should at least _pop _or_ try _to run even with the low numbers. I had suggested a cylinder leakdown test because for me, it has always been helpful to know if I had a bad valve vs weak rings or a cracked head, etc. But whatever. Looks like the OP is not going that route. 
I do think if he worked on it and did get it running on the 7 cylinders he would probably not be happy with the way it drove. This is my opinion. 
You or I could likely get it running if we had hands on it due to experience. Me personally, I would find out what was wrong mechanically first. 
I have gotten many, many junkyard grade and antique engines running after decades of storage/abuse, etc. As have you. I think our OP wants to go beyond the thrill of hearing it pop off and actually plans on driving the car. I could be wrong. But if he does, he will have to diagnose and fix the mechanical issues first.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

geeteeohguy said:


> T had 50-55 psi.....T's with 20psi won't start by hand crank. It would need to be towed at 30 mph to spin fast enough to bump start. Not a lot of crank speed generated with a forearm.
> The '47 Chrysler started easily after it was overhauled using the same old cables, starter, battery, etc. Compression is a _good _thing when it comes to starting. Honest.
> I agree the OP's car should at least _pop _or_ try _to run even with the low numbers. I had suggested a cylinder leakdown test because for me, it has always been helpful to know if I had a bad valve vs weak rings or a cracked head, etc. But whatever. Looks like the OP is not going that route.
> I do think if he worked on it and did get it running on the 7 cylinders he would probably not be happy with the way it drove. This is my opinion.
> ...


Hmmmm. You said 1915 Model T and I pulled my info right off the Model T forum. "*OP* - If I am *hand cranking a stock 1915 engine *to do a compression test, how much compression might I expect to find on the gauge? Or rather what SHOULD I find on the pressure gauge? Just ran the test and on an un-calibrated gauge they all said about 30 pounds. I know they should be 50-55 but that is done with a starter. 3 of the 4 cylinders bled off very slowly but they did bleed off. This was done on the engine that has not run in several days. After re-installing the spark plugs, she started on magneto and on the 3rd pull with no choking. *Charlie B's Reply*: 30's not the worst and you're not sure about the gauge plus it started well. 50-55 would be very good. Hand cranking's not a problem. Just keep going on the cylinder until the pressure doesn't get any higher. Usually between 5 to 7 full cranks. Choke and throttle fully open too. *Harold S's Reply*_:_ You did say they were all about 30 lbs, and I'd be willing to bet that _if that engine was turned over with an electric starter_ (which it was not), which would enable 6 or 7 compression strokes one right after another ( minimal leak down time) your compression would be up in the 50's. I know for a fact that a very loose and worn "T" engine with compression in the low 20's can often be a very sweet running engine. Are you hand cranking with all spark plugs out? That's the best (easiest) way to do it, especially when hand cranking."

Maybe these guys are full of poop? I never owned a "T".

Model T Ford Forum: 1915 Compression Test 

I've had the experience where I have set the distributor in correctly based on putting the timing mark on the balancer to factory spec (ie 6 BTDC) and then stabbing in the distributor and lining the rotor up by eye with the No.1 spark plug terminal on the cap and installing the cap - no start. Double checked and it was still line up and no reason why it should not fire. It was not until I began to move the distributor around, left then right and left, that the engine popped. Turning the distributor a little past the "pop" in either direction and it would not fire. It had to be in that one spot, so left it there and continued to crank the engine as it popped more and more until it came to life. So I had to find that "sweet spot" through the distributor timing by moving it around AND I feel that I had somewhat flooded the engine in my attempts to fire it up and by hitting that "popping" spot and cranking the engine, I cleared the flooded condition and the engine took off.

So this too could be the issue - everything looks good by setting/eye, but there is slack/play in the distributor/cam gear and timing chain/gears AND a flooding condition due to repeated attempts to start th engine and everytime you open the throttle, you just squirt more gas down into the intake via the accelerator pump squirt.

But, in any case, the OP should follow a check list and make 1 change at a time if a change is needed and then observe the results. I would also be shooting starting fluid down the carb, but I would have that fire extinguisher ready and also be ready for that backfire through the carb and a means to smother it if need be. Never look down a carb while cranking because a backfire WILL burn off your eyebrows and eye lashed in a millisecond. FYI - Takes a couple weeks for them to grow back.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

A good running T with compression in the low 20's= BS. Not happening. But hell, what do I know? I only drove, restored, and worked on them for 15 years. One main reason they light off with low compression is due to their low tension magneto ignition system, which buzzes the coils and produces a spark when the piston is at or near TDC even when the engine is not running. That is with an accessory battery. With no battery and the hand crank, that mag better be hot and in great shape. 

I am still trying to figure out why you are so set in the OP (who is still MIA) to try to get this thing running when he has a known dead hole and all the others are weak. I personally would start a leakdown test and record the results and go from there.


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## Mark Dougherty (Sep 6, 2018)

Just adding my experience with my 1967 326 ci Tempest that I had disabled six months or more while replacing front seal and then timing chain at 107,000 miles. Also carb had to be rebuilt due to butterfly shaft leaking which eventually caused minor fire from backfire as warned. When all was reassembled quite carefully including burn distributor wires it would not pop. I checked on this forum and repeatedly readjusted valve rocker bolts to physically confirm closing valves, but I had low compression that kept getting lower each dry compression test. I had spark that was , well, yellowish blue, but no pop at all. I suspected blockage, removed and cleaned all intake manifold interior ports, flushed old Quaker State wax residue from upper valve train with diesel, flushed and reflushed beneath valve covers, put back together with my best recommended valve rocker adjustment for non-adjustable hydraulic valves and still no start, no pop. I was about to pull the heads when I decided to buy a $20 endoscope/boroscope. Pontiac Jim may remember this story what happened next. The cylinders were quite clean, a little abraded (scratched) on a few, but appeared very dry. I went whole hog a gave each cylinder a generous 4-6 squirts of oil to lube them up, replaced plugs, and darned if it didn’t crank right up.

from what I’ve read, I don’t expect loose timing chain, but distributor slack sounds possible just the same. I certainly agree with getting dry plugs andphysically checking timing and manual compression at #1 top dead center.
After those mechanical checks, including of course good fuel and carb operation, I myself would not spare the oil into those old dry cylinders, especially since I read that only a little squirt was added.

good luck. Wer’re pullin for you.


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