# Aaaaaiiiiiieeeeeeee!!!!!!!



## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

Just installed water pump #3 (or is it #4?). Had the new/old pumps on and off 5-6 times (new pumps off and on , ok, 6 times now to change timing chains, etc... on both the 326 & 455, in addition to changing the w/p's). Never a drop of fluid-EVER! So, I re-set the new pump plate (got the new plate 2 months ago, so that was another disassembly procedure in itself) of course, taking it off and tapping it to fit the cast iron impeller about 30 times. Was very careful not to strike the shaft, or drop it, etc... (started off with a new stamped vane impeller, which came nowhere close to the divider plate to begin with, thus the "new and improved" pump with cast vanes). So you know the story of the last cast vane pump (less than 300 miles) which had all that slop. Installed this sumbitch this morning, and before installing belts and pulleys, checked for slop. Guess what? I could feel play- not much, but I could FEEL it! So I sez to myself, self, I sez, screw it! Let her roll as is. I do not care anymore. So, I commence a fillin' the sumbitch up, get a couple of gallons of fluid in the fugga, look down and see it pissing on the floor, from the bottom of the water pump. Needless to say, I was pretty livid, and beside myself at that point. I had visions of taking "little Bertha" and smashing every single piece on the car, so as there would be no salvageable piece for anyone to strip from it. I was that close. I can't say if the play in this new pump was due to faulty workmanship, or the fact that the pump came in an oversized box with no packing in it, then was stuffed into another, much larger box, also with no cushioning in it. (On the plus side, it was free shipping-). I don't even want to look at the SOB at this point. Tomorrow, I will see if it's the stinking gasket, or if the mating surface on the pump is fugged. (I cleaned everything- I take my sweet time to make sure it's right- ALWAYS).  :shutme:shutme:shutme:shutme:shutme:shutme


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## Mr_Roboto (Apr 19, 2013)

Could always be worse. Drop a bolt down the distributor hole and you probably won't feel as bad about the water pump.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*To kingdom come...*

Yes, it could be worse when I drop a blasting cap down there. Blow that muther to smithereens.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*cooked goose*

Reinstalled new "new" pump with a good gasket. Not a drop. the old "new" gasket separated into several layers, and was saturated all around. Never seen a gasket fail before. (Have seen improperly installed gaskets fail, but that was not the case here). Readjusted pump plate even closer than it was before. Pump end play was there, but nominal. She's running (in the driveway) at 210 now, and heat soaks to 225+ when shut down. She comes back down after starting to 210. I give up. Redoing this car was supposed to have been my "swan song", but now appears to be my "lame duck". Radiator hoses bulge when it gets to 215. Starts hard when hoses bulge (cranks over fine). I almost thought I had it, but no. Silly me. Has a new 3 core aluminum radiator (the only reason I got it was that it touted that it was 30% more efficient than a 4 core copper). Had a good original 4 core on the 326, but was *ahem* damaged. But with the 4 core, it SILL ran exactly the way it does today. Hot. 326, 455. No difference. I won't buy a new 4 core if it's not going to make any difference. (But I would if there was any hope at all). I'm at the end of this accursed journey (life-haha) and would like to ascertain a certain amount of pleasure from this automobular device before I sell it, and the new owner can sink about another 20 grand into the 15 thousand dollar vehicle. Can't say I didn't try.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Are you sure it's running that warm?? Do you have a lazar thermal gun to shoot the intake water passage?? You might be able to borrow one from a parts store to verify the temp.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*hot foot*

Naw. Don't need one of those to tell me when it's running over 200. When those hoses start bulging, you can bet your bottom dollar it is what it says on the gauge. You could probably fry an egg on the intake. Hoses don't bulge till it gets to be around 215+.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

gjones, tell us your story. About the car, its history, etc. You're an great writer, very descriptive, and I'm sure that there's a way we can be of some help, even if it's just words of hope and encouragement. I for one appreciate your black humor, and have, in the past, felt as you feel. In my old age I just step back, get a breath of fresh air, shake it off, and walk away for awhile. These cars are not rocket science. Finding quality parts for them can be, though. Tell us what you have, what gears, trans, engine, carb, heads, CR, etc., Fan shroud, what type of fan, etc. and we will try to help. If that fails, There are two solutions, Topkat's and mine. The Topkat fix is to pour about 3 fingers of Woodford's Reserve into a highball glass over ice. My solution is to pour 3 fingers of Evan Williams into a highball glass over ice. Much cheaper. Do that, take off your shoes, and go and watch the speed channel or something. Chill out. Relax. The car running hot is not a game-ender.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

There are a few other things you could check. Is it possible that the thermostat is sticking causing it to run hot. An easy check would be to remove it and see if your running hot problem goes away. There are also other factors that can make a car run hot. What is the condition of the rest of the engine? I had a Camaro that half of the water jackets were clogged with what looked like green salt from old antifreeze. I was able to remove it by running water, draining, running water, draining ... My dad worked with a guy who popped out the freeze plugs and flushed with a hose to clear up a similar problem on a Monte Carlo. A bad head gasket could cause your radiator hoses to bulge as you describe. I have seen where exhaust gasses can enter the cooling system and actually blow the hoses off. The last thing you could check is a blockage in the exhaust system. This is easy if you are running duels, the same amount of exhaust should come out of each pipe.

Unfortunately, working on these old cars can sometimes be frustrating but it is part of the hobby. I like geeteeohguy's suggestion except my solution is usually cold and carbonated. I hope this helps.


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## joesweeting (May 8, 2011)

Mr_Roboto said:


> Could always be worse. Drop a bolt down the distributor hole and you probably won't feel as bad about the water pump.


When I was priming my oil pump and the drill bit I was using came apart. I was lucky enough to fish it out with a magnet in under 10 mins. I then ordered the tool sold by Butler Performance and waited until it came in before priming the oil pump again. 

Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

*Overheating checks*

Rebuilt a 360 Dodge engine for my brother. Blew the new water pump gasket right out of it. Very similar to you, the gasket looked like it separated. I had also cleaned up the mating surfaces, but had engine spray paint on the housing where I painted the engine. I figured this, the paint was too smooth a surface for the gasket to bite and it slipped out under pressure. Gasket surfaces need to be a little rough rather than too smooth. Then the front seal between the oil pan and water pump housing blew out. Out came the water pump a 2nd time as well as the front of the engine. The seal had slipped out -nothing I did wrong. Called my machinist/engine builder and said "yep" happens a lot because of the different compound they use in the rubber seals today. They now use, and recommend, the yellow colored adhesive/sealant, for rubber seals. I used it on the water pump gasket as well. Problem was solved -but the rear seal developed a slight drip and was easy enough to tolerate rather than drop the suspension and pan at the time -and adhesive/seal this rear seal.

My '68 Lemans had an overheating problem. Everything new, 4-core radiator. First make sure your timing is correct and distributor advance works right, this can aggravate heating problems. 

Make sure your fan is not too far away from the radiator core. Pontiac did use 2 different water pumps -one with a longer shaft than the other (depending on body type I believe). If your engine uses the short shaft when you needed the longer one, they had a factory spacer that moves the fan closer to the radiator. 

Use a flex fan along with a radiator shroud -this helped me but it still ran hot when sitting or in traffic and would push antifreeze out the overflow. 

Tried installing a 160 thermostat, still no change when sitting or in traffic. (Tip- I always drill 3 1/8" holes, equally spaced, in my thermostat. 1.) it will ensure there is no air getting trapped in the engine behind the thermostat 2.) if the thermostat fails, it will allow some of the pressure in the engine from overheating/boiling to pass rather than boiling backwards out your block/radiator because it has gotten past "way too hot"). 

Make sure your hoses (even if they are new) are not collapsing inside or have separated. I have had this happen as the inner rubber layer had separated from the outer rubber layer -poor quality manufacturing. Make sure your hoses have that metal spring inside them to keep the hose from collapsing, many replacement hoses do not have these any more and they should be used. Do you have the correct pressure rated radiator cap? 

I also added a product I think called "Wetter Water" or something like that. It is an additive you add to the antifreeze that supposedly makes the water "slippery" and aids cooling. You can buy this at an auto parts store. Seemed to help, but just a little. 

Are your belts slipping? I have had this problem. The replacement V-belts I had on my Lemans sat deeper in the pulley grooves and slipped because they are manufactured thinner. They were also flipping upside down and jumping off at higher RPM's -regularly. Got a set at Napa that have "cogs" or "notches" on them versus the smooth style of belt. No more slip and never flipped off another belt. 

Is your exhaust too close to your oil pan? Heat from your exhaust can heat up the oil in the pan additionally to what the engine normally does. I fabricated my pipes and am 100% sure this was part of my problem. They are too close to my pan and once the engine is all warmed up, the pipes pump more heat into the oil as they are way too close to the pan and then the engine stayed hot. 

But all of this never made any radical changes to my water temperature, just helped while moving, but the temp would still climb when sitting or in traffic -I'd see 215, then 220, and I'd squirm. Then one day it quit on its own. No lie. It ran cold as I had the 160 thermostat in it. Barely hit 180 on the hot days, ever. No more antifreeze pushing out the over flow tube. Go figure. I can only assume there had to be some blockage somewhere and it unclogged by itself after almost 20,000 miles of suffering over it. But where, I never figured it out. Lost my oil pressure at 25,000 miles on the rebuild and suspect the oil pump went out as oil pressure continued to drop regularly until it quit -but that was another mystery/problem. Car is in process of rebuild #2 -front to back this time around.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Jim, great posts with good information but I wish you would section it out to smaller paragraphs as it is just hard to read.

Not trying to bash or be an internet critic but just a suggestion. :cheers

Gjones, I agree with the above suggestions and maybe consider some waterwetter, checking the distance between your fan and radiator, the fan and the shroud and even pulley size to ensure your pump isn't running too fast or too slow. Also agree timing plays a huge roll in engine heat. Good luck friend and let us know what you find. :cheers


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

ALKYGTO said:


> Jim, great posts with good information but I wish you would section it out to smaller paragraphs as it is just hard to read.
> 
> Not trying to bash or be an internet critic but just a suggestion. :cheers
> 
> Gjones, I agree with the above suggestions and maybe consider some waterwetter, checking the distance between your fan and radiator, the fan and the shroud and even pulley size to ensure your pump isn't running too fast or too slow. Also agree timing plays a huge roll in engine heat. Good luck friend and let us know what you find. :cheers


I hate internet critics who hide behind the word "suggestion". HahaHa. Only because I love ya, man. Cleaned it up, but it became a really long post that way. No offense taken, really -was just rattling off thoughts as they hit me and did not think of how it was crammed all together when others read it. HaHaha.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Internet critics is the exact reason I picked my nick, cause I can't spell!! So it was a way to make fun of myself. You'd be surprised at how many people would judge your intelligence level by your ability to spell correctly.
Thank heavens we have spell check now.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Excerpts from "The Idiot Chronicles"...*

Well, gt, I took your advice and stepped away from it for a few days, (and for a few jiggers) and decided to go about this business methodically from square #1. How imbecilic of me to ignore the very first rule of Pontiac: THIS IS NOT A CHEVY!!!!! All of you Pontiac noobies take heed in these good peoples' sage advice! I tried to attune this vehicle as I always have in the past, with minimal tools and a good ear. Always worked for me. Well, I decided to chuck the beat up crappy tools out the window, and get some new equipment: dial back timing light, some good vacuum gauges, an accurate tachometer, etc... and found out a couple of things: 1) I have a vacuum problem. Hooked the gauges directly up to the nipple on the front of the carb where the pcv valve is located (and after, to the rear where booster is) and found the vacuum to be extremely erratic, jumping from about between 13-19 inches (quicker than the human eye could see it), indicating to me a weak, cracked, or broken valve spring, perhaps? (Has double springs on each valve). Here's the weird part: I have the vacuum advance and the modulator line tee'd into the pcv system, and there with the pcv valve connected, it pulls a solid 9" of vacuum, powering the advance and modulator. If I pull the pcv out and put my finger over the end, vacuum is back to the 13-19 crazy pull. Like I said, steady when valve is connected. ODD, NO? 2) Used the trusty vacuum pump to check the vacuum advance unit. held good vacuum @ 10", for several minutes (indicative of a good diaphragm). she pulled full advance @17", which is a problem since the engine is only pulling 9" at the pcv system. So, I was able to dial down my vacuum can (Mallory) with an Allen wrench to full advance @13.5".(The screw stopped there). At 9", there is action at the advance plate, maybe half way (or less), but definitely more than there was when it was at 17". I wonder if there is a can available to pull full advance at 8", I thought I read one of Lars' tech papers that went into that, but the one he mentioned, I can't seem to find... If there is such a device, this baby would be smoother "then it already are". Which is extremely smooth, even as we speak... (that is, until I get the spring problem resolved) 3) I set the timing as per Lars', Gts', and Bears' recommendations. (I first checked it- This was the setting where it would crank over easy: 6 degrees BTDC!  NO WONDER SHE ACTED LIKE A 20 year old dog! (Not to mention running hot). Set her to the proper timing curve, and took her out: WOW! It was like a totally different car! Ran 160 on the road. 170 in the driveway. (99 ambient outside temp). Shut off- wouldn't start back up. Had to back off to 4 BTDC to put it in the garage. 4) Pulled "new" starter and #4 cables out. Stuck in new "new" starter, and #2 cables. (Almost put #1 or #0 in... glad I didn't. This #2 goes in, leaving just enough room for the other 2 wires. I think #1 cable would have been pushing it, without getting a new wire tube. Still wonder what kind of insulation I can put in there. I've looked, to no avail. Any suggestions? Now initially, at only "17 degrees below zero" (BTDC-that's the way I'll refer to it herein, though it be 102 in the shade) this bad Mammyamma fires up on a dime.  I think I can definitely squeeze much more out of it than that. IT RUNS SO GOOD, as is! (I can only imagine how it would run with 19" of vacuum) 5) I've added much unnecessary consternation to my endeavors, but not exactly without its' rewards. (It's not like I've only worked on the engine all this time. I actually addressed and repaired issues that may have been overlooked if she was running proper to begin with). Wouldn't want to OD on too much fun... (P.S. what other conditions would make the stated vacuum readings jump like that so fast? Before I invest in a set of valve springs? Seems smooth as silk!) I will be tweaking it all this week. Thanks everyone :cool


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

OK: verify the vacuum reading with another vacuum guage. If it's still oscillating, do a compression check. Your engine should have around 18-21" of vacuum if stock at idle, and it's anybody's guess if you have a huge cam in there. I have a huge cam in my '65 and it pulls about 14". If it runs well at an advance setting that makes it hard to restart, you can install a kill switch. Crank the engine over, then flip the switch on while it's cranking. It'll start right up. It's an old trick that works.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

A broken valve spring can and will cause vacuum issues as you describe. A super lean idle mixture can cause vacuum gauge oscillations, too. A huge vacuum leak and also be the cause. I would verify the gauge, and verify the condition of the valve springs (compression test and visual by pulling valve covers) before trying to dial it in any further.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*inch by inch. SLOWLY, I TURN...*

Thanks gt. I purchased a new vacuum gauge from Jegs, which before I even opened the package, could see that it was reading 5" vacuum. :lol: (No adjustment to it either). Sent it back and rented one from auto parts store. (Looked new). Am waiting for an exchange on the other, will be a couple of days for that. I recently took a compression test (around 2 months ago or so- less than 50 miles on it since). Fully warmed up, all plugs removed, coil grounded, and throttle blocked open. Here's the readings: #1 175 #3 175 #5 172 #7 178, #2 175 #4 172 #6 170 #8 172 However, I did not do a blow down test (would have to rent or buy a compressor with correct gauges, but will, if need be ). I do believe my hard starting issues are over for good. This new set up cranks it right up, no hesitation, even at 17 BTDC after idling 1/2 hour in 102 degree outside temps.  I will re-torque intake, heads, etc... and check for leaks this week. One strange thing of note: There are three fittings on the front of this Carter. Center one goes to pcv (and t'd to advance and modulator), other smaller ports on either side BOTH are ported vacuum. Seems like at least ONE should be manifold vacuum, but no. I can just about kill the engine with either idle jet. Have them both open about 2 1/2 turns each. Engine seems smooth and sweet with no bog. I will check more this week and report. Thanks again!


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Don't "T" into the PCV valve hose for the dissy, it should have it's own vacuum source.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Hoover advance*

I totally agree with you Rukee, however, that is the only place where the vacuum is stable @9". Both small front ports are ported vacuum. I will NOT use those ports for idle vacuum! Pcv port vacuum is erratic, (when all is disconnected from it) from 13- 19", FAST!:willy: Same from rear booster port. (The diaphragm in the booster must take what crazy vacuum it's being fed and stabilize it in the can, as if acting on reserve, from what I can tell. Brakes work ok. Not great, but not bad, really).


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

you never want anything "T" into the PCV or booster vacuum source, just sayin...
Maybe you need one of those hallow carb studs for the dissy?


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*vacuumulization*

Booster is on its' own fitting at the back port, nothing else on it. That's the puzzle: why is vacuum stable @9", when t'd into pcv system? And erratic when gauge is directly plugged into pcv port, all other vacuums capped? Hopefully the problem can be traced to something easy. :lol::rofl::lol: Rukee, that plate you referred to, is that a base plate for the carb? If so, I'd have to change out my air cleaner. No room to spare there. AND, vacuum is erratic everywhere else, except for at the pcv system, with pcv connected.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

On the older GTO's the passenger side rear carb mounting bolt is hallow so manifold vacuum can be ported/piped to the dissy.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

Weird! OOO... wait a minute. I'm running a Carter square bore on a Performer Pontiac intake. ('71 455) It has 2 bolt holes on each corner of the carb (and intake). I only have 1 screw at each hole, leaving 4 open. Should I get some cap screws (so as each head will fit in the allotted areas) and see if that makes a difference?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I don't know your carb or combo, but what Rukee said: NEVER tee into the PCV or booster line for any reason. Get a hollow stud if need be. You should be pulling 15-21" of vacuum at the intake runner at idle. Your compression is right where you want it....maybe a little high for today's gas, but pretty much dead on. I think you have a tuning issue, not an engine issue. Wish I could get my hands on it and check it out....


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*NObodyKNOWSthetroubleI'veseen...*

gt, I wish you could get your hands on it. That would be the ticket! But, alas. I wouldn't think of t'ing into the booster, but what pitfalls are presented when t'ing into the pvc system? My new, "new" vacuum gauge should be here in a couple of days, and I'll go over the whole thing again with a fine tooth comb. (Perhaps the store gauge I rented was faulty? I doubt it, but hope). Also, why would vacuum stabilize at the pcv system, with the valve connected? When pcv valve is removed and the vacuum gauge connected at the same spot, the needle does the lightning dance. Again, will verify when new gauge gets here. Oh, and by the by, belts are screeching again. Another 20 hours of adjusting did very little for it, but is only slightly embarrassing on start up and revving it in neutral I guess that's as good as it gets also. (only a minimum of 80 hours on that idiot project) . (Less than 5 miles on new alternator, 2 miles on new "new" belt). The Pontiac gods *H A T E* me, I guess.  MOTTO: "We do it nice, cause we do it twice". or 4 or 5 or 10 times...


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## Baker (Mar 30, 2011)

A buddy of mine with a 67 lemans and a 455 had overheating problems and ended up having to shim the impaler in the water pump housing properly.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*vacuum the carpet*

Thanks, Baker. After 4 water pumps, and a new divider plate, I'm very well versed in the art of plate adjustment. My hot running issues seemed to stem from my erratic vacuum at idle. That scenario is all but gone (that is, running hot at idle, anyway), but vacuum is definitely screwed up.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

There has to be a solution lurking out there somewhere. I've been scratching my head over this one myself. As has already been said, unless you've got a really rowdy cam in it the vacuum shouldn't be doing what it's doing. Obviously though, someone neglected to inform the vacuum of that fact. 

On the PCV question... the only plausible explanation I can come up with is this:
That PCV passage is pretty big, so with it connected and with your already low vacuum, it's probably not making enough vacuum to hold the valve closed and that's in effect creating a very large leak at that point, enough so that when you have the gauge connected there it doesn't "see" the fluctuation. When you remove the valve (and the leak because it's not closing) then you see the same behavior that you see everywhere else.

I heard a quote once, though the original source escapes me now: "Things are lost because people look for them where they are not, instead of where they are."

GeeTee mentioned various valve train problems like broken springs and other components that can cause what you're seeing, and that steered me to another idea: could it be valve adjustment? I don't recall seeing what type valve train you've got (hydraulic/solid, roller/flat, "adjustable" or factory bottleneck studs, whether the heads have been surfaced, etc.) but if you've got one or more valves that are "off" (too loose, too tight) that can do weird things with cylinder pressure and vacuum also under running conditions that won't show up under a 'static' compression test - especially on the 'too tight' side. With the engine off (and little/no oil pressure to operate the hydraulic lifters) the valves will seat properly and a compression test will look golden, but with the engine running (oil pressure) you can have valves that don't fully seat, leading to all manner of weirdness.

Just a thought.

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Excellent thought, Bear. Valves a tad tight would cause all kinds of vacuum issues. Gjones, does the idle speed up if you drizzle a little carb cleaner downt he carb at idle speed? It sounds way too lean at idle to me. Also, does it misfire at cruise or under load, or just at idle. How does it run overall? Did you check the static timing to verify that the timing chain is clocked right? I installed one 180 out 30-plus years back, and it ran, but had no vacuum and no power. It's time for 'back to basics": check the static timing with the engine off, check the firing order, verify the valve adjustment, check for vacuum leaks at the intake, etc. You need a good foundation to start with in order to end all of this ghost-chasing. It'll help keep the liquor bills down, too.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*I've an "head"ache*

Ah,yes. The valve train. Bear, I did have these heads off to change the valve seals, (as it smoked blue on first start when PO had it) and did look at the springs and valves and such. Springs seemed ok (but gather that's not exactly a science, as they could be cracked or weak), however, there was one Stud (#4 intake, if I recall) that I had to give a half turn to tighten it up. This engine is sporting 1973 4X heads, hydraulic lifters, stock rockers and threaded studs. .030 over pistons. Don't know what cam. It certainly could have used a good valve job,(I've seen better, and have seen much worse, also) but due to budgetary constraints :lol: (and that the engine sounded good when I bought it. I know, I know...:willy. If I recall, I torqued the rocker studs to about 20#. But now you guys got me to thinking... it seems that I may have given one or two rockers a little extra torque, maybe 25 or 30#, for whatever reason. That would seem to make sense, if they are too tight, then they would not seat properly. Gt, there really doesn't seem to be any misfire at all, at any speed (none that you can actually feel), idle wavers roughly 10 rpm at idle with advance connected (and maybe the slightest of a miss there), but rock steady at 17 "below zero" at 600 rpm with advance disconnected, and smooth going through the ranges. Super smooth on the highway. You can move your big toe through your shoe at the gas pedal, and feel it at the wheels. Idles smooth at stoplights. Can shred rubber from a standstill, and come right back to idle without stalling. I will (quadruple) check all the basics this week: torques, timing, vacuum, etc... I may even get bold and post a little video of it starting up and running, and with vacuum gauges attached (if I can figure that one out ). I am, OH, so very close. I can taste the honeydew.  P.S. Use carb cleaner to check ALL areas for vacuum leaks, yes? (Any product better than the rest?). Thanks.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

Is there an effective mechanical way to hold the valves up to pull the springs, that is, minus the air compressor? (have no working compressor any more). If there is a way, I would just go ahead and get some new springs and eliminate that equation altogether.


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## jmt455 (Mar 26, 2012)

The "rope trick" works.

Pull all the plugs.

Stuff some soft rope into the cylinder you'll be working on through the spark plug hole when the piston is low in the cylinder, on the compression stroke (both valves CLOSED as the piston comes up). You MUST be sure the piston is coming up with both valves CLOSED.

After stuffing the rope into the cylinder, roll the crank over slowly (by hand; don't use the starter!!) until it stops. The top of the piston pushes the rope against the valves to hold them closed.

After you're done with the vavle work on that cylinder, rotate the crank counter-clockwise a little but to relieve the pressure on the rope so you can pull it back out.

You can do the next cylinder in firing order by rotating the crank 90 degrees.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

:agree The rope trick does indeed work. Also, if you remove the rocker arms on the cylinder you're about to work on before you insert the rope, then you don't have to be concerned about which stroke that cylinder happens to be on - "every" stroke will be a compression stroke. 

Bear


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Good heavens! More trouble afoot!...*

That sounds like a good plan. Any particular size diameter rope, what weave style (I can imagine nylon would be the worst kind), and do you have to kind of try to coil it around in there? Do you have to hold the crank also? What if one of the valves slip down a little, how would you get it to come back up to install the retainer? Yes, I should have done all this when the heads were off, but was not prepared to go into a valve job, knurling, milling, etc... at that point. Really needed to do the tests on a running engine, first. The whole thing (engine, trans) really should be pulled and rebuilt. Perhaps, in time... Um, I made another post requesting information on the alternator/ power steering pulleys assembly. Anyone have any pictures or info on the shims and spacers there? I've tried every angle imaginable, and still the screeching persists. Both belts. New alt. and belt. Tomorrow is going to be my last hurrah at attempting to shut those 'effers up, as important company is coming Saturday, and would like to transport them about in splendiferous power and glory- *NOT* in a screeching, nagging little bee-itch! I will, in effect, take each bracket and bend the living crap out of them, if need be! But a basic shimming setup and alternator spacer length would be swell, if anyone has any ideas...! Thanks. URK!!! A horrible thought just hit me! Could a divider plate being too close cause a screeching sound, like belts squealing? PLEASE, say it's not so!!!


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Can you post pics of your out-of-alignment alt, ps, water pump, etc? I'd like to see it.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Azmiuth setting 455.621, trajectory factor: THE MOON*

Well, I worked out yonder in the garage this mornin', till about 5:30 or so. Pulled all associated bracketetry and such out of it and started right from the block, trying different methods of shimming and blocking and all that. This, that and the third, you might say. I think that problem stems from where the rear bracket is supposed to attach to the block, via the top thru bolt (from the alternator), and the center bolt (where the power steering adjusting slot is on the rear bracket). They originally just had washers in there to shim the bracket out to around 1/4" or so. I got sick of the washers dropping out every time I had it off, so I put a stud in there, and shimmed it out to the proper depth. (Not so easy, as you don't know what the measurement should be until everything is tightened down with the belts. Fun). Then toss pump angles into the mix, with pump body shimmed on one side or the other. Then the grand hoo-ha with the alternator angle with that stupid spacer, (which may or may not be correct for the engine). Whenever you fool with the angle on the pump bracket, it throws the alt. angle off. I think I got it close(r) this time, as it only barks just for a second in park when you rev it to the point just before the secondaries open. Took it out, and there's no noise at all, in gear, under load. Think we'll leave well enough alone, for now.  Gt, I should have taken pics of all this nonsense, but didn't. I will take some this evening and post.  P.S. With 160 t'stat, she run right at 160. Heat soaked to 190, cranked up nice, right back to 160. "Runned" like a raped ape!!!


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The main aluminum mounting bracket bolts right to the block without any spacers or shims. The only thing that uses the spacer/shim is the power steering pump, between the lower part of the pump body and the metal PS pump bracket on the front side of the pump body.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Mix and match...*

Then this is definitely the wrong bracket. The one from the '66 326 was aluminum (still have the bracket and pump from it). This one ('71 455) is chrome. Pump is chrome. Front and rear brackets are chrome. (I went on epay to look at other brackets. Be they chrome or painted steel, they physically look the same as what I have. Lord have mercy, they must think the crap they have is made of gold or something. $50-$200 or so). When the pump is installed with no shims or spacers, the pump pulley needs to go roughly 1/2" further forward. Thus the call for the shims. On the right side of the rear of the pump, there is a stud. I can put a 3/8-1/2" spacer in there between pump and bracket, but then cannot install the retaining nut. Not enough threads. It would be really nice if that bracket sat flat against the block. That would eliminate the rocking action-if that in fact is what it is doing-surely is the worst deal I've ever laid eyes on!-(That *HAS* to be it. It seems that no matter what I do, It still squawks). I cranked her up today (again), and it squawked. I had visions of my fist going through the windshield, but decided against that. She has a nice blue tint on top. 90 hours though, and still no joy. UGH. This pump/bracket set up is probably from a 1969, early production run, with my idiot luck. I can say with probably 100% certainty, that would be my case! Water pump pulleys line dead up with crankshaft pulleys, so's gotta be the correct water pump. *SO*... I wonder if my old 326 pump bracket would fit on there. (Seems like the holes line up, but would have to verify), but seems unlikely to work. 455 pulleys are different. Maybe if that chrome pump would fit in the aluminum bracket? (But I do have all pulleys, balancer, etc... from the 326 if I got desperate :lol: wonder if that would work???). I will try to post pics soon. Thanks


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I feel your pain (and always get a laugh from your posts - you do have a way with words).
With as much time and effort as you have into this whole thing and still not getting a good result, I'd bet a significant amount that you're dealing with a Frankenstein -- you've got mixed years of either bracketry, pulleys, components, or all three. When you go to Ram Air Restorations' web site and look at their pulley sets, they offer 37 different combinations for the Pontiac V8. I know first-hand that trying to get "everything" working together on one of these engines, especially when you (or someone else) has changed something, like maybe an SFI balancer or a different water pump, can be one of the most challenging and maddening things you can tackle --- it ranks right up there with installing and aligning an Endura bumper on a 68 or 69.

Tell you what I'd do in your case. Erase and start over. Remove "everything", put all the pieces into a large orange box prominently marked "Toxic", and set it over in the corner of the garage. Then hit up whatever wrecking yards are around there and find a car that has "everything" still installed on the motor, grab it, clean it up, paint it, and install it on your car. 

Bear


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## jmt455 (Mar 26, 2012)

BearGFR said:


> I feel your pain (and always get a laugh from your posts - you do have a way with words).
> With as much time and effort as you have into this whole thing and still not getting a good result, I'd bet a significant amount that you're dealing with a Frankenstein -- you've got mixed years of either bracketry, pulleys, components, or all three. When you go to Ram Air Restorations' web site and look at their pulley sets, they offer 37 different combinations for the Pontiac V8. I know first-hand that trying to get "everything" working together on one of these engines, especially when you (or someone else) has changed something, like maybe an SFI balancer or a different water pump, can be one of the most challenging and maddening things you can tackle --- it ranks right up there with installing and aligning an Endura bumper on a 68 or 69.
> 
> Tell you what I'd do in your case. Erase and start over. Remove "everything", put all the pieces into a large orange box prominently marked "Toxic", and set it over in the corner of the garage. Then hit up whatever wrecking yards are around there and find a car that has "everything" still installed on the motor, grab it, clean it up, paint it, and install it on your car.
> ...


^^^^ this is GREAT advice.
There are SO many possible variations, you'll drive yourself nuts trying to figure it out.

Another option is to take all the parts off and research every stinking part number (all the parts should have part numbers on them). There are pulley and fan charts in the factory service manuals and the GTO Restoration guide; you'll find all the proper combinations based on the year/engine/option content. There were different crank and water pump pulleys for A/C and non-A/C cars, as well as for the water pump variations, etc.

It would take a lot of time, but then you would know exactly where every piece came from and you could start with only the proper parts for your engine/options.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Bear, why didn't _I_ think of that? That's a brilliant idea.


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## rvp986 (Sep 19, 2012)

Very interesting reply, PontiacJim. Your story makes perfect sense. Stranger things have happened in life. When you made the comment that you have to "make sure your fan is not too far away from the radiator core. Pontiac did use 2 different water pumps -one with a longer shaft than the other (depending on body type I believe). If your engine uses the short shaft when you needed the longer one, they had a factory spacer that moves the fan closer to the radiator". Very True! Most had the short shaft, if I recall and then there was a 2" spacer, if needed, to get the fan closer to the radiator. The flex fan is a great idea. I did the same and rebuilt my 69 with a flex fan and it really makes a difference, in my thoughts, but be sure the fan is about one inch away from the radiator. Use the spacer if needed. The proper air flow is crucial and will make a huge difference. 

As far as... "(Tip- I always drill 3 1/8" holes, equally spaced, in my thermostat. 1.) it will ensure there is no air getting trapped in the engine behind the thermostat 2.) if the thermostat fails, it will allow some of the pressure in the engine from overheating/boiling to pass rather than boiling backwards out your block/radiator because it has gotten past "way too hot")." Awesome idea! Makes so much sense, I'm gonna do the same to mine. Could levitate many major headaches. We'll see. Well.... it sounds good, anyway. Still gonna do it.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*An successful weekend!!!!!*

As ill and ailing as the poor girl is, she ran flawlessly this past weekend!!! Had important company over, and the pleasant couple were seriously impressed with the car!!! The man pulled his checkbook out and proclaimed: "I'm going to write you out a check for $20,000 right now." [For the car], of which the reply was "I really wasn't looking to sell it". But the option is open, perhaps after I come to my senses. Thank you Bear, I LOVE the *TOXIC* box idea. That sounds like the only logical solution to my dilemma. The automobile was utilized several times running back and forth this weekend in the 103+ degree temps- 6 miles one way, with a few traffic lights, (mostly on beer runs. :lol. The fool belts nary made a peep. Surprised the living crap out of me!!! They really don't mouth off much, unless you kind-of gun it in park. (And oddly, as I've stated before, don't make ANY noise when you get on it, or otherwise, on the road!). Temps on the gauge were 160-170 range on the road, 180 at stoplights. Heat soaked to 195, started like a new car, with temps coming right down. *NICE!!!* I can't even imagine what it'll do when I get the vacuum up to about 20", instead of 9". (I believe I'm beginning to grow quite fond of the verisimilitude of component inherent in these Pontiac automobile!!!). I was able to adjust the vacuum modulator as well, and the shift points seem strong and solid. I will be checking the valve adjustment, and other elements this week when my new "new" vacuum gauges come back to me. I will still try to post pictures soon. *THANKS to all who have guided me through this Wonderful World of Pontiac !!!!!*


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Sounds like your getting there G, temps are right where you want them especially on 103 degree day. Went through the same gyrations with my accessory brackets. The fun driving them makes all the work to make them run worth it.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Please, oh please, let the rockers be the culprit...*

Finally got the new vacuum gauge in, and checked rocker arm torques. The specs call for 20#. All were between 25-35#! WTF!!! :willy: I think one was close to 40! When I loosened #4 exhaust, the stud turned with it. Tightened back down ok. :confused I don't know why I gave extra to them... One other thing is when I tightened up the rocker nuts, then backed them back off, the tightened reading would say 20#. When I backed the nuts off, the loosening reading said 15#. Is that typical, or is the wrench buggered? hopefully this will help with my vacuum problem. (Seems like if they were too tight that the valves would not seat properly). Haven't run it yet. Will have dinner now. Try it out tomorrow.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

G, many of these nuts are interference nuts, and once you loosen them, they no longer 'hold' as they should. I would get a fresh set of nuts (no pun intended) or better yet, install poly lock nuts and be done with it. Glad to hear you're on track and off the wagon!


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Polly wants a vacuum test...*

Thanks gt. Will check into the poly lock nuts. Just started the car in the garage, and was about to pull it out and do some tests on it, when someone pulled into the driveway, just as I put it in gear. Of all the... Oh well. They'll be gone soon. Although, she actually sounded "better and smoother" (would the nuts being just 10-20# tighter really make that kind of difference?).


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

I don't like the torque method, I prefer doing it this way.
Pontiac Rocker Arm Adjustment


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*sjaneiqmsdhrpfkjc; ksnfheqoornjvcbz*

O.K. So I connected the vacuum gauge to my source for the advance and modulator (which, as you remember, is connected to the pcv system). Put my finger over the end of the pcv, and finally got a relatively stable vacuum at idle. (Moderately oscillating between 17-19"). Was able to adjust the carb idle screws, semi-stabilizing vacuum to around 18.5". (It would stay right there, but every so often would either go to 18" or 19", or waver a little bit). Idle screws were at 2 1/2 open originally, but now at 1 3/4. Idle is slightly rough, like a small miss-(Starts right up now without touching the gas- took it into town yesterday. Shut it off then started about 6 times. 2 times, cranked right up. 4 times, had to put my foot to the floor). O.K., so now I need to find a manifold vacuum source by itself. Idiot carb has two small nipples on the front. Said nipples are both *PORTED!!!* Can you hear me swearing, over there? No provision in the crappy E'brock Pontiac Performer intake. (Oh, there's a couple of plugs there, maybe, but would be afraid to try to remove them. I can imagine the flimsy hollow aluminum going *KOONK!* and a nice chunk of manifold going *POINK!*). Somewhere on ebay, I saw a double fitting that screws into the rear of carb- one for booster, one for modulator. would something like that work? But that still leaves the advance dangling in mid air, lest I can tap all three into it. OOO! Why the hell do people put this stupid Chinese crap on their engines??? Crap hole intake. Knock off clone crap carb. Next vehicle I get will have factory *EVERYTHING!!!* '58 Desoto is on the list. Well, at least I'm getting closer to the prize-(which is probably a $10,000 overhaul)


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

First thing I would do is get the correct nuts and adjust the valves right. Then you need to get more vacuum sources as you should not have anything on the PCV line then the PCV. If there is a port or plug at the back of the carb or in the intake, use those for the other vacuum items.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

Only two ports to speak of: Which one is less likely to snap off?


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*pull the plug...*

Well, I've made an executive decision. I am going to remove that small plug with the Allen head and install a two nipple fitting for my advance and modulator, hopefully bringing my vacuum out the realm of unicorns and bearded rainbows. Oh, the anguish of the unknown. Will it but snap the manifold, or no?, is the question. Maybe I'll get lucky and the po didn't epoxy it in. Does this location seem feasible? On a brighter note, it was run in 112 degree ambient temps for 30-40 minutes, and run @170. Heat soaked for 10 minutes- 190 tops. Started right up and went back to 170 in less than a minute without revving it!  Can't wait till the advance pulls in full @17", seems it'd run even cooler (and smoother), then I'll put the 180 stat back in it!  P.S. Thanks Rukee for info. Will be setting those proper, when I get this vac. problem taken care of...


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## jmt455 (Mar 26, 2012)

I think you've chosen the right one.

I'd score the paint all around the plug and give it some time with your favorite penetrating oil (I like PB Blaster).


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Let us now all hold hands, and pray...*

Thanks, jmt. Sometimes all I need is a little validation on these elusive issues. No worries about scoring the paint there. I got to the point when I was working on those horrible brackets that the intake was the spot to lay the tools conveniently, thus the chipped up paint. We'll give her a lil touch up at the end. Yes. Tomorrow will be a shiny new day!


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Plug 'O' ****!*

Well, after sweating conical shaped projectiles, and excreting rectangularly formed building material, and scraping the paint from around that plug and spraying it down at regular 10 minute intervals for one hour with PB Blaster, and putting a long, stout 3/4" box wrench on the end of the Allen wrench and carefully, but firmly applying torque to the apparatus, it came laughably loose. It would have come off without all this fanfare and rigamarole, if I had just given it a try. I guess: "better safe than sorry" is a good policy. All I could picture was a big hunk of aluminum chunking off. (I've seen corroded aluminum before-makes me nervous. Although the manifold looks good, I've seen localized spots on other applications). Inside the plug hole looks new! So tomorrow I will pick up a 1/2" thread X 3/16" double nipple. Hopefully someone will have that in stock. Looked like there was a little Teflon tape (of some kind) on the plug. Any recommendations on what kind of sealer I should use on the new fitting, be it liquid or tape? Thanks


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Sounds like you're getting there on the valves. Yes, just a tiny bit of rotation on the nut can make a big difference on the adjustment. I've got poly-locks and solid lifters on the Beast, but when I'm adjusting them it only takes less than 1/16th of a turn on the nut to go from sloppy-loose to way-too-tight. Hyraulics will tend to be more forgiving than that, but it still doesn't take much to get them out of the "happy zone". Yes, it's normal for the "loosening torque" reading on your wrench to read lower than the "tightening torque". The stretch and the tension on the threads is helping to make the fastener "want" to come off so all you have to do really is apply enough force to overcome the friction on all the surfaces. When you're tightening, you have to overcome that same friction PLUS the force of the threads that are resisting the fastener stretch and the ramp on the threads.

I agree with Rukee - if you want positive control over your adjustments and have the budget for it, then I'd go with poly-locks (and while you're at it, replace the bottleneck rocker studs with the larger 7/16" "chevy style" studs). The factory Pontiac system was fine for the assembly line and for stock engines (with "back in the day" factory tolerances) but they won't stand up to several remove-install iterations.

Bear


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*gum*

Thanks, Bear. I will be doing this vacuum thing, first, though. What would be the best kind of sealer to use on the new fitting: liquid sealer, or the Teflon tape? Or something different altogether?


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*What good are automotive parts stores?*

Just returned from the idiotic parts stores (three of them, + Lowes). What an EFF'N *JOKE!!!* No manifold vacuum fittings. Oh, well they all have something. That is, all of them had the exact same sized made in "you know where" plastic garbage that's kind of close to what you're looking for, but not quite, and will snap like a twig if you attempt to remove the hose more than once. Oh sure, I could have rigged something up that may or may not have worked, but it would look like a Charlie Brown Christmas tree with about 6 mix-matched parts stickin' uppen offen' the manifold like a sort of statuesque shrine dedicated to some foreign deity for about $20, for just about $1.99 worth of material. Pathetic. Yes, they had a brass fitting to go into the manifold, but was 1/4", and would have had to reduce to 3/16", then "t" offen' that. Ugh! Give me a break! Tomorrow, I'll go to the "speciality store" that's supposed to have this sort of thing. HA! I've been there before! There may be a remote chance, but I'm not counting on it. I'm in the hub of industry in this neck of the woods, but it matters not. I'll be looking online (futilely I'm sure, as there will be exactly everything except for the things I need, or I'll order it online, but the threads will be wrong, and send it back and allow another 4-6 months for delivery)... And so it begins... :willy:


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## jmt455 (Mar 26, 2012)

I'd try Fastenal or Grainger. 
Won't be cheap, but they have just about anything you could imagine...in good, old-fashioned brass.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

You could go to a salvage yard and pull a double or triple T out of a manifold.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

Went to a couple of other places again today. (Fastenal being one of them) and was told "who the f*** are you, comin' "round here, tryin' t' buy *vac'um* *fittins?"*. (Well, they may easily very well have said that). Finally found a place that had a simple brass 1/4" brass X nipple fitting, Of course, vacuum lines are 3/16" going to the distributor and whatnot, so's I just jammed it on to the brass nipple and "t'd" into that with a cheezy plastic "t". Then I reinstalled the pcv, with a dedicated 3/8" hose going to the carb as it should. Am going out there tonight to adjust the valves as per proper procedure dictates, although may wait till morning to crank it up as I have a terrible hango -er-headache this evening. :lol: On a more pleasant(ish) note, I found a couple of nice fittings on e- , ranging from $15-$60+. Once I get situated, I'll get a nice one. This junk here looks hideous. (except the brass fitting looks nice, but it's only a single nipple, and sticks straight up, looking a little out of whack). Well, I suppose that they don't want the general public having multiple nippled fittings anymore, out of fear of someone making hooka pipes, or someone actually making a legitimate repair with them, or some such bullpucky.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Pecular?*

Well, I tried my new vacuum system out today (before attempting to adjust the rocker arms) and got a kind of a vibrating reading at 19.5"@ 550rpm in park. Increased idle to about 625, and vacuum stabilized somewhat, and was able to tweak the idle screws and get a semi-solid 20.5" vacuum at the manifold fitting (with modulator, booster and pcv still connected- should these be disconnected and plugged for this test?). She stayed pretty steady, wavering a speck every so oft (but when she wavered, you could definitely detect a small miss). So I was relatively happy, right? When I plugged the the advance line back in, she run rough as a cob, with a very noticeable skip. Disconnected the advance, and she smoothed out (pretty much right out). Of course, I had adjusted the advance can down to full on @14", when I was running 9". Haven't brought it back up yet. Wonder if that would make a difference? (I don't see where that should make any difference though, since it should be full on at idle anyway, no?). Started to adjust the rocker arms (stock with 3/8" threaded studs) as per Rukee's link to Bill Boyles adjustment procedure, and found it doesn't really seem to work here. Pushrods seem to twist exactly the same loose or tight. (Till it gets to 30-40#) I don't think that will work till I get new rocker studs and lock nuts. So 20# is where it will have to stay for now. These 4X heads are probably the bottom of the barrel crap and shot anyway and need to be pitched. Oh well. I can always go back to running 9" and "t"ing back into the pcv system for now. At least it ran good there.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

If you adjust the rockers per the link I provided don't even worry about what torque your at, just adjust till the push rods stop spinning, then go 180*. I adjust valves like this all the time when building engines before they are even installed and never had an issue. Be mindfull that after the adjustment the lifter can bleed down and the push rod could turn again, but just do it the one time and move on to the next. Try the advance to ported vacuum and see how that reacts.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*loose as a goose*

Hey Rukee, that's the thing, though. that pushrod feels the same right from complete looseness, all the way down to fully tightened. ALL of them feel exactly like that. (Except cranked down to about 50# or so). When I stop tightening where I think it has drag, and give a half crank, then check the torque (just for curiosities sake) it'll take about 2 turns before that locknut even gets anywhere close to being in the neighborhood of being tightened. (Although, I did this after it had run and was warmed up. Do you need to do this procedure cold? Article does not specify).


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

P.S. I take it that since I'm at 17 degrees btdc already on the initial timing, then that's why when I connect the advance, it starts to stumble (because it is already at full advance at idle anyway at the can?). If I leave the adjusting nut where I think the new setting should be, without a locking mechanism on the nut, it'll never stay put!


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

gjones said:


> Hey Rukee, that's the thing, though. that pushrod feels the same right from complete looseness, all the way down to fully tightened. ALL of them feel exactly like that. (Except cranked down to about 50# or so). When I stop tightening where I think it has drag, and give a half crank, then check the torque (just for curiosities sake) it'll take about 2 turns before that locknut even gets anywhere close to being in the neighborhood of being tightened. (Although, I did this after it had run and was warmed up. Do you need to do this procedure cold? Article does not specify).



Try this then, loosen the rocker arm so that not only can you roll/turn the push rod easy, but you can also feel up and down movement as it moves the rocker. As you tighten just as you reach the point there is no more up and down movement the push rod should tighten up just after words. As it does, tighten an additional 180* and leave it. I've also seen the lock nuts go bad and loosen after some time.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Crock 'O' caca*

Went back today and tried the adjusting procedure with a cold engine. Worked 100% better. Cranked it up and checked the vacuum. Adjusted idle jets and got a pretty steady vacuum idle at 22" (wavers very slightly), with engine at idle in [email protected] rpm"s. Set parking brake and put it in drive, idle dropped to 550 rpm"s, at 18 btdc, and vacuum goes to 20", with a very slight vibration at the tip of the needle, but would smooth out every so often and be very steady. There seems to be the slightest of a miss, but smoothes out every so oft. O.K., so when I plug this succulent vacuum into the distributor advance, the car runs like crap. (Would readjusting that vacuum can adjustment help with this?). So, I plugged the hose into one of the ported supplies on the carburetor, and it seems to run great. But now, she's running over 200 again, and heat soaking to 220 again, and have to put my foot to the floor at the gas pedal when starting again. So now, all that wonderful manifold vacuum is just going to be powering the modulator. *HUH!* What a crock. Why does it run like excreta with full manifold vacuum??????????????????? :willy:


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

You might have too much timing, check this thread...
http://www.gtoforum.com/f50/gto-tuning-setup-tips-13052/


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*So very tired...*

Yes, I went through all that. (Read that thread about 25 times. Maybe I missed something). That's how I got to be 17-18btdc. He says he likes to see 16-18 initial, slightly less with a mild cam. I don't think there is anything special about this cam. So I should knock the timing back some? I'll go through the whole procedure again tomorrow. I grow weary.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

You probably have too much initial timing. The specs are anywhere from 6 to 12 degrees, depending on the year and size of the engine. I've never run 16 initial in any Pontiac. Ever. If you're getting 20" of vacuum, that's what you want. Anything 16-21 is perfect. Pontiacs run cooler and operate better running direct manifold vacuum advance, that's why they are set up that way from the factory. Ported works for some, but fuel mileage and temps will suffer in-town. I would: set your initial down to 10-12 with the vac advanced disconnected. After you get it set, hook the vacuum line back up (manifold vacuum). Adjust the idle speed, then the mixture. Drive the car. If not ok, check the total advance at around 3000 rpm with a light. Should be about 40 or a little less. Some of these cars end up with over 50 degrees advance with the can hooked up...that's a bit high and tends to cause misfires. If that's what you are experiencing, you can buy and adjustable vacuum advance, and dial it in. Be warned: the adjustable advances are junk and can be set one time before the allen screw strips out. Do NOT follow the instructions and screw the screw all the way in initially. Install the unit and see how close it is, first. Happy 4th!!


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*I can see the light up yonder...*

Thanks, thanks, thanks, geeteeohguy! That sounds very logical. I think that is my problem, as when I run it to 3000-3500rpm"s with vacuum advance connected, and check timing with the dial back, it looked like around 60 degrees!!! I was very afraid. (Haven't had it out on the road yet, till I'm sure-although, it didn't sound like it was detonating or anything ). Now that I got it to turn over @18 degrees when hot, it ought to fire up @12, "jus' like budda"! Perhaps that article only pertains to racecars. My Mallory distributor does indeed have the dial back diaphragm (That's how I believe I got my temps under control when I was running off pcv system w/9" vacuum. Was able to dial it back enough). Played with it last night, and tightened the diaphragm back up, and just cranked it up a few minutes ago-sounded great, but was still was on high idle. Family reunion at the beach houses on Galveston all this week, but will still be back and forth to fool with it, as the car will want to go too, I'm sure. I'm stoked now. It is VERY close! *HAPPY 4th TO ALL!!!*


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

FWIW my car had a Mallory UNILITE dissy in when I got it and I could not get the car to run right no matter what I did. It did not have the vacuum advance, but it was brand new. Put the original dissy in with a MSD unit and never looked back. 
Which reminds me, I should sell that thing.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*ti, ti, ti Ming...*

A couple of questions that I've looked for an answer on, and only found everyone dancing around the subject is when you set initial @10-12 btdc, what should the idle be set at, (basically stock engine, .030 over pistons) 500rpm? 600rpm? More? in park? in drive? Thanks


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Set the initial timing, then set the idle speed to 500-600 in 'drive' or about 750 in neutral. Then adjust the carb mixture screws as follows: slowly turn one screw at a time clockwise until the car starts to run rough. Then back the screw out slightly until it just smooths out. Do the other one the same. For best results on an automatic car, I do this adjustment in gear with the parking brake on and the wheels chocked, or with a helper in the driver's seat applying the brakes. Yes, to me, it sounds like you simply have too much advance going on. It will cause all kinds of rough running at low and cruise speeds, and surging at cruise, too. If you set the vacuum can so it gets about 45 degrees max at cruise with everything hooked up, it should be pretty happy.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Velvety smooth...*

WOOOHOOO!!! Pulled timing back to *12 degrees* "below zero" (had to put my parka on) and set the advance can to 5 turns counterclockwise from base (which at that lowest setting came all in @14.5". Not sure how many inches that 5 turns represents- seems I read it somewhere, I think either 1/2" or 1", but it seems to like it there). Put the vacuum gauge on it, set the idle screws, and got a relatively stable 21". At times, it was a very solid 21". (I think either 20 or 21", as my new 2nd gauge seems to be buggered. Didn't notice it the other day when I reported 22", as now when it's disconnected, it reads 1". Sonofabit..) anyway, the engine runs smoother than it ever has. Just ran it in the driveway-was 96 outside, ran 160 (20 minutes). Heat soaked to 190.(15 minutes) After a minute or two of idling, went back to 160. *GLORY BE!!!* :cool Only thing, you have to put your foot 1/2 to all the way down on the pedal for it to fire up after it sits more than 5 minutes, but it does. There is a 5-6 minute window where you don't have to touch the gas and it fires right up. After 5-6 minutes, that's when you have to give it the gas (more like the air. If you pump it once, she won't start till you hold it all the way to the floor). I hate to cut the idle jets back too much, as she's running so smooth. (But may be what I have to do). Going to pull the damned alternator/steering bracket back off and F*** with it again, as when you have to put your foot into it to crank it up (the 5-6 minute deal) she screeches like PO'D BITC*! And when you start it cold. And when the 4 barrels kick in (only in park- no noise on the road). Am going to get the part # offen' it and compare and see what I need. UGH! Need to bring it to Galveston and show the rest of the fam. (They'll be there for a week). I'll *MAKE* a damned bracket, if I have to! (Till I get a new one ) Overall, though, I'm-a-grinnin"!


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## jmt455 (Mar 26, 2012)

Sounds like excellent progress!


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Way down yonder in New Orleans, at Jim Jacksons' Jamboree...*

Well, I didn't take it to Galveston, as I was afraid of setting a drop or two of oil or trans fluid upon the driveway. However, "Mawr and Pawr" 'a' done drivv down yonder here, from Loozi-Anni theyseffs (they'z iz in them'z mid-upper 80'z) and stayed the night afore they 'a' done went to Galveston, and viewed the ancient artifact at hand, to which they'z wuz quite 'pleezed' with the results. (They'z 'a' jes done sold they '64 1/2 Mustang convertible a couple 'o' year back). The eldest son took a few moments out to come and look at it. He was very quick to point out every flaw and pitting in the chrome, every spot in the paint and body. The thing he was most impressed with was the fact that it had valid insurance and was inspected.  (didn't say he was *MY* son, exactly). Oh well, what do you expect for two years of hard labor, sweat, blood and toil of the brow? Perfection? :lol: At any rate, I've been driving this about to the market and such, and temps seem to be under control for the most part. Ran her today into town (96 degrees out) and tried to get it to run hot. Made a lot of stops and shut-offs. 170 running, 190 heat soak. Crank up, right back to 170. came home, parked it in garage a few minutes, heat soaked to 215. :willy: (I know, it's not that bad- it's been much worse), fired right back up fine. HOWEVER, the gol durned radiator hoses looked like they were about to bust at the seams! Lemme tell ya, they appeared as if they were going to explode at any second. Tight as a drum. Scary.  This seems to be an ongoing thing, dating back to the 326. Same bullpucky. WTF. Seems to mostly do it when it goes over 200 degrees. I have *NEVER* encountered this with ANY vehicle before in my entire life. Never boils over, but makes you want to shut the hood in a hurry! What is this? Do I have too much fluid in it? (1/2" below filler neck now). I've noticed that the effect is lessened if I run it to operating temp with the radiator cap off first. Engine is smooth (slight miss at idle in gear, but tolerable. Convinced it's valve / head related. I'm o.k. with this for now). Plus, I still need to get rocker locknuts, but I'm not buying any of that high dollar, change out the studs to 7/16" to accommodate pricey lockers. If there is a source for cheap regular locknuts (3/8- the ones on there now seem to be working fine), lemme know? Thanks.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Hoses should be hard at operating temps, they run a 16lb radiator cap, so that will keep the system at 16 pounds per square inch, which is pretty hard. If they are bulging, then they should be replaced.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Whew!*

Whew! Maybe I should break down and purchase some "aluminized hoses", so I don't have to be worrying about them wanting to burst or blow off. (If I do that, I may as well break down and get the bloomin' 7/16" studs and lockers, to boot! :lol-So this is normal, then? So very strange to me... :confused


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*blowed up like a balloon*

Hey, Rukee, um, these ARE new hoses, and don't leak a drop. Just blow up like a football, is all. Perhaps they are of poor quality? :confused Hate to drop $30-$40+ for the same results. (been there, done that) You know what ol' Einstein said about these matters. (Though it seems I'm half there, already!) :willy:


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The hoses will feel like teak under pressure, but as Ruk said, they should not be bulging or deformed or ballooning in any way.


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