# Gto?



## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

Could someone decode this please.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Supersport#68 said:


> Could someone decode this please.


1968 GTO. To verify further, match your VIN number up with the VIN number stamped on the frame - they need to be the same.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

What is the A1 code? What about T in sequence after B?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Supersport#68 said:


> What is the A1 code? What about T in sequence after B?


Try this website and see if it helps. Select the Data tag type and then fit in your info: Welcome to DataTagDecoder.Com | DataTagDecoder.Com

Also, PHS documents usually tell you what the codes are.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

I haven’t bought it yet so trying to see what I might buy. T in cowl and A1 doesn’t make sense to me.


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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

Supersport#68 said:


> What is the A1 code? What about T in sequence after B?


The trim tag (which is what you posted a photo of) is stamped and affixed to the body when the body is made. Assembly of the body began during the first week of March (03A). The final assembly/invoice date would likely be 2nd or 3rd week of March....the Billing History Card provided by PHS (for a fee) will have the invoice date.

68-24237 is a 1968 GTO hardtop.

BT means the body was built at the Arlington Fisher plant. This means the car was almost certainly assembled at the GM final assembly plant in Arlington as well. If true....there will be an R in the 7th place of VIN for this car. In 1968, the Final Assembly plant in Arlington TX only assembled Chevrolet and Pontiac models.

Trim 225 should be for a Medium Red interior color.

A1 is exterior color. Black car with white/ivory Cordova top 

That is about as far as we can go with the trim tag info. The PHS docs will show what options were ordered with the car. (Engine, trans, gauges, radio, wheels, etc)

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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

Thanks for info. What would this model in fair condition roughly go for with ws engine and 4 spd? Solid body but needs a lot of smaller items.


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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

Supersport#68 said:


> Thanks for info. What would this model in fair condition roughly go for with ws engine and 4 spd? Solid body but needs a lot of smaller items.


WS is the HO engine option. With the 4 speed it is fairly desirable...next in line after the Ram Air models.

Market is soft right now. Hard to place value as I would not buy any car from areas prone to rust issues. I realize this severely limits my selection but I am tired of saving cars that live in those regions.



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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

No rust issues that I can tell. Hideaway lamps not working and I’m sure some body work will be needed.
Would 15 be too high for this with factory drivetrain?


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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

Supersport#68 said:


> No rust issues that I can tell. Hideaway lamps not working and I’m sure some body work will be needed.
> Would 15 be too high for this with factory drivetrain?


Sounds like a good deal for a complete car in fair condition with no rust.

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## deanhickey (Apr 6, 2015)

Sounds like a good deal, check to see if the engine is original by looking at the right hand side of the engine block. you will find the ws code plus a series of numbers this should match a portion of your VIN. If they match pay the money and smile inside.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

I need to go see it again to verify sequence but I think it’s legit. I’ll check it out today if I don’t lose it.


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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

Supersport#68 said:


> I need to go see it again to verify sequence but I think it’s legit. I’ll check it out today if I don’t lose it.


The number towards the top of the block near the WS stamp is the Engine Unit Number and has no relation to any part of the VIN. The partial VIN stamp would be on the same side of the block but down lower. Behind the lower radiator hose, usually stamped to be read sideways...near the timing cover. 

By now, most all owners of classic Pontiacs are familiar with PHS service and should have those docs available to validate the car. If the seller is a widow or surviving family member then perhaps the PHS docs may be nearby....ask to see any receipts or records that may be on file. You might get lucky.

Alternatively, you can submit for your own copy of the factory invoice by sending a request to PHS directly. They offer a fax back service so you can get the info you need to make your purchase decision. The Engine Unit Number is usually listed on the Billing History Card so that would be another easy way to identify and validate if the engine is original to the car.

The HO engine should have cast iron header type exhaust manifolds. These are different from the log style found on the base engines. That would be something you want to look for during your next visit to see the car.

Good luck. Can't wait to see the pics!

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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

Ok I know where to look now so crossing my fingers it works out.
If it does workout then the next dilemma is color.
It currently has red interior with black top and red paint (very old) but I’ve learned here it should be black with white top and red interior.
I’m tempted to just redo the red with black top but not sure if it’ll hurt value much.


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## uscfan1976 (Sep 4, 2018)

It sounds good to me if the car meet the following conditions:

Solid Frame
Fair body (No rust, body filler)
Fair interior
Starts, runs and is drivable

Trust me I'm not critiquing but these things can get expensive so you want a good foundation to work with. For 15K it should be road worthy, it does not have to be a show car but at least solid.

Good luck, I hope it works out for you.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

Shake-N-Bake said:


> Supersport#68 said:
> 
> 
> > I need to go see it again to verify sequence but I think it’s legit. I’ll check it out today if I don’t lose it.
> ...


Any chance you have a pic of where that partial vin stamp would be? I can’t find it. There is a number by the ws stamp you mentioned and I can’t even make those numbers out either so I need a brighter light I guess. I confirmed the ws part but no vin number to connect them.


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## 29585 (Aug 4, 2013)

Here's a jpeg taken from the Wallace site which shows location of engine unit number, ID and partial VIN.

Wallace Racing's Pontiac Engine Search

Also, as Shake and Bake said, the PHS docs are worth it b4 you spend the money, I used their expedited e-mail service twice recently for fast responses, the first car on Craigslist in New Hampshire the seller was claiming he had a disassembled judge turned out to be a base gto. When I confronted him with it he based his claim on his older brother telling him 20 years ago the car was a Judge. Then a week later I found a real judge verified again by PHS. Cost me $180 for 2 different searches but saved me from buying a phony judge


Good luck and post some pics if you buy it.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

Anyone have a pic of where partial vin is stamped on front of block? 68 400 ws
I did verify it has a Muncie in it so I think maybe original drivetrain


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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

Supersport#68 said:


> Anyone have a pic of where partial vin is stamped on front of block? 68 400 ws
> I did verify it has a Muncie in it so I think maybe original drivetrain


The photo posted by Clevelandpartsguy shows the location of partial VIN on block. The item labeled "serial #" is the spot.

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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

I found the stamp and it’s a match so I bought it.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

WS and partial vin verified but I couldn’t see block casting, which is irrelevant at that point. 66k original miles with original drivetrain but not sure which Muncie it is.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

More pics


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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

Awesome. Enjoy!
There should be a date stamp and partial VIN on the transmission. Right Side of main case.....usually on the flange towards the rear of the main case.

Any photos of the exhaust manifolds?
Did you ou order the PHS docs?

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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

Thank you!
I will tomorrow but it has the style that looks like a header though. Still points distributor in there. I’ll post better pics after I clean it up. It was only driven 68-72 then stored until 2016. Still has 1972 sticker on it.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

Ordering phs tonight. The trans is really dirty so I didn’t confirm numbers on it, only know it’s a Muncie from a magnet not sticking. Lol
I’m assuming since motor has never been out and low miles.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Just saw this. Excellent! Referring to an earlier post of yours regarding repaint: Black GTO's with red interiors are very rare, and desirable. Especially with a 4 speed and an HO engine. Painting the car red would hurt the value significantly, especially since it is a real 'black' car. If it were mine, I'd paint it black (black paint is a fraction of the cost of red paint) and forego the white vinyl top or change it to a black vinyl top. Nothing sharper than a black goat with a red interior, IMO. Just sayin'..........Been into GTO's over 40 years and can't remember the last time I saw a black '68 with a red interior. Have seen several red ones, but black is very rare indeed. Your car, your choice.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

? yes I am with you. It will be black 100% now and sticking with black vinyl top. Not sure I can afford show but it’ll at least be black. The red on there now is very thin and you can actually still see the original black on part of the rockers and a few other spots. I’m wondering if light wet sanding might remove the red and expose original paint. In this pic you can see the hood is slightly creased from trying to force close it with rusty tight hood springs. Hideaways are not working but all parts there.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

geeteeohguy said:


> Just saw this. Excellent! Referring to an earlier post of yours regarding repaint: Black GTO's with red interiors are very rare, and desirable. Especially with a 4 speed and an HO engine. Painting the car red would hurt the value significantly, especially since it is a real 'black' car. If it were mine, I'd paint it black (black paint is a fraction of the cost of red paint) and forego the white vinyl top or change it to a black vinyl top. Nothing sharper than a black goat with a red interior, IMO. Just sayin'..........Been into GTO's over 40 years and can't remember the last time I saw a black '68 with a red interior. Have seen several red ones, but black is very rare indeed. Your car, your choice.


100% going black- black vinyl top. The hood is slightly creased due to someone closing hard with tight rusty springs. Hoping that’s fixable. Magnet sticks everywhere and red is very thin. I’m wondering if it can be lightly sanded off to expose the original black. Very little spots on body that need addressing. Interior still looks like new.


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## 29585 (Aug 4, 2013)

Looks good man! Nice find with the WS block engine. Not too many of them around anymore. I hope you get this GTO back on the road soon, good luck with it.


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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

Looks like a great foundation...especially for the price. Not sure what to do about the paint. Lacquer cracks.....so that should be removed vs painting on top. There is a reason the car was painted......people rarely change colors if the existing paint is good.

Your car is interesting and has some neat features. 1968 was the only year that I am aware of where Pontiac used hotter camshafts in the manual trans engines. Your WS engine would have the "068" camshaft which is the same cam found in the RA I and RA II automatic cars and the 69/70 RA III engines (except some early 69 manual transmission models). The camshaft and cylinder heads are the main difference between all the 400 c.i. engines from that era.

The 69/70 RA III is the same engine as in your car with a fresh air cleaner added on top. Those RA IIIs were nice running engines.....because you have a 4 speed HO......its the same basic engine. You should have fun with that one.

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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

Thanks. It runs now and sounds good surprisingly but it sat so long all fluids etc need changed.
Any suggestions on things I should do? Car literally sat for decades. Nothing has been rebuilt or changed carb to pan. I’d figure flush engine water, oil, plugs (any particular preference) and ?


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

Supersport#68 said:


> Thanks. It runs now and sounds good surprisingly but it sat so long all fluids etc need changed.
> Any suggestions on things I should do? Car literally sat for decades. Nothing has been rebuilt or changed carb to pan. I’d figure flush engine water, oil, plugs (any particular preference) and ?


I think if you do a search you will find a few thread on what to do. When I bough mine I asked for help so I know that is one of them. Mine had sat for 15 years. I would be very careful about running until you get the basic fluid changed. I also would get a good oil pressure gauge hooked up. I will try to find you a link to mine. I also would suggest PY forum also. That's a great find and sound like a great deal. It nice to know these cars like your are still out there. Best of luck . Doug


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

This is one but I know more out there. This is from PY but I know I have some form this forum. Both forum are great for info. http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=713156&page=2


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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

Supersport#68 said:


> Thanks. It runs now and sounds good surprisingly but it sat so long all fluids etc need changed.
> Any suggestions on things I should do? Car literally sat for decades. Nothing has been rebuilt or changed carb to pan. I’d figure flush engine water, oil, plugs (any particular preference) and ?


I would change the engine fluid and check for leaks. Inspect and service the brake system next. Then inspect the wiring for damaged insulation or other faults that could be dangerous or become a problem.

Then I would drop the gas tank, drain and clean or replace if necessary. Replace all fuel lines. Save the originals for reference later in case you ever want to restore to factory original condition. Replace fuel pump (save old pump if original) and rebuild carb with modern ethanol resistant parts. If the carb is original, resist the urge to replace the carb with something else. The original carb is perfect for that engine.

Most important is to document as much as you can and take photos from all sorts of angles. Take photos of areas that you think are totally unnecessary.....you will need them later on.

It sounds like your car may be fairly unmolested so there could be cool stuff to document. Looks like someone changed the air cleaner assembly as that does not look original to me. Hopefully most other items are present and accounted for. If so, your car could be a very helpful resource for others that are trying to put together their car 

Low mileage, complete cars that are unmolested are a treasure for the hobby.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

These came in today


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

Pics


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

Pulled interior with fingers crossed today and looked amazing.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

I cleaned up interior today and ran it. Yesterday there was slight hestitation (I think due to carb) but today zero hesitation and runs healthy. Cobwebs I think. Just changed out oil and filter plus three fresh gallons antifreeze. Run and shifts smooth but reverse is a little tough to get to. Maybe just needs to shift more.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

Definitely going back to starlight black but would you recommend single stage or base coat-clear coat? Although it’s a keeper for me I’m on a smaller paint. budget so can’t go show.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

Code on axle


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

Shake-N-Bake said:


> Looks like a great foundation...especially for the price. Not sure what to do about the paint. Lacquer cracks.....so that should be removed vs painting on top. There is a reason the car was painted......people rarely change colors if the existing paint is good.
> 
> Your car is interesting and has some neat features. 1968 was the only year that I am aware of where Pontiac used hotter camshafts in the manual trans engines. Your WS engine would have the "068" camshaft which is the same cam found in the RA I and RA II automatic cars and the 69/70 RA III engines (except some early 69 manual transmission models). The camshaft and cylinder heads are the main difference between all the 400 c.i. engines from that era.
> 
> ...


There’s even dried up blue painters tape on trim from original owner. His health went south when he was in process of repainting at some point.

I’ve driven a few times just cruising it but I can tell it’s got power for sure.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

If same as ram air 3 does that mean it is 366 hp or 360 still since it doesn’t have air cleaner equipment?


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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

Supersport#68 said:


> There’s even dried up blue painters tape on trim from original owner. His health went south when he was in process of repainting at some point.
> 
> I’ve driven a few times just cruising it but I can tell it’s got power for sure.


Standard axle ratio for 68 HO 4 speed is 3.55 axle code WH. Looks like your axle is original to the car. (Whoo-hoo!)

If your car would have had the limited slip option (Safe-T-Track), the axle code would be YH. (In case you were curious...)

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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

This is my first GTO but I assume safe t track is posi? I noticed there were what looked to be a type of factory traction bar on the frame rear axle area. They are definitely factory but I thought unusual coming from a 69 Camaro to this GTO. Kind of dark but you can see it in this pic.

Yes it’s cool the entire drivetrain is original and there with low miles.


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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

Yes. Each division had it's own catchy name for limited slip differential carrier units. Pontiac called theirs Safe-T-Track.

F body leaf springs help locate the axle so they don't normally have any control arms. The GTO has coil springs out back so GM designed upper and lower control arms to keep the axle in place. Your car should have the braces from the forward mount point of the lower control arms to the rear cross member. I think those were standard on 4 speed cars......not sure about automatic trans though..??

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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

Vacuum line routing diagrams for 1968 GTO
















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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

1968 Firebird and Tempest engine chart









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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

And 1968 axle chart ...









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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Supersport, I've sent you a PM.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Single stage for sure. BC/CC does not hold up in hot or sunny climates over time, at least where I am in Fresno....and is too high gloss. Nothing beats a nice single stage jet black a mile deep. Both my GTO's are single stage...the '65 was painted in 1985, and the '67 in 1993, and both paint jobs are still presentable with no peeling or failures. Can't do that with a 2 stage paint job.


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## deanhickey (Apr 6, 2015)

Just wondering where these diagrams are from?


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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

deanhickey said:


> Just wondering where these diagrams are from?


These books have that info up through 1971 model year vehicles. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/401283120103

They work in conjunction with these books.
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/361711974728

Need all 5 books to cover everything on the car.

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## deanhickey (Apr 6, 2015)

Shake-N-Bake said:


> These books have that info up through 1971 model year vehicles. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/401283120103
> 
> They work in conjunction with these books.
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/361711974728
> ...


Thanks for the info, I need to add these to my library.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

I just located the tape player the car came with. Widow of original owner still had it stored. I haven’t cleaned anything yet. Any advice on how to clean it without screwing something up? How does it mount?
I was think dust it and never dull. The harness that plugs into this is still in place under my dash radio.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

Jumped the gun and started dusting this off and it looks just about perfect. I’ll have to plug it in to see if anything happens.
I do seem to be missing a side shield of sort that the original owner couldn’t find.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

Good as it gets unless I can paint that red cover.


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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

The vinyl bezel can be sprayed with dye paint. Same color as the dash pad for your car. I can't find a color code for Medium Red but I do see one for Regimental Red.... might be worth a try.

Du Pont 9366-LH
Ditzler 71591
Rinshed-Mason 167B51R


One of those codes might be close.

The surround cover is reproduced. Not sure about quality. I expect to order one soon and will see how it looks.

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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

Regimental red makes semse


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

The car has some (80s I assume) flower mags. Rears I think are 15x10 with a 295/50/15 and I think fronts are 15x9 235/15/60 on there although the 60 on front seems to not stretch out to fit the wheel.
Wheels are in decent condition but I don’t know if it’s worth putting new tires on them. 
Any suggestions?


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

You can see width here.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Supersport#68 said:


> The car has some (80s I assume) flower mags. Rears I think are 15x10 with a 295/50/15 and I think fronts are 15x9 235/15/60 on there although the 60 on front seems to not stretch out to fit the wheel.
> Wheels are in decent condition but I don’t know if it’s worth putting new tires on them.
> Any suggestions?


Since your car is SO original, I would recommend finding some 14" wheels, get some original, correct wheel covers and run the G70-14 W?W tires on it. Your car is so rare and original it would be a shame to modify it, even the wheels. Ames, the ads here and on the PY site could be helpful ion your search.

My car came with a multitude of mods from paint to engine and wheels so further mods would not be a sin. But yours is so rare and correct, it would be terrible to modify it, even the wheels. Just my 2 cents.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

As for the 8-track, I'd try a little plastic polish on the perimeter before a dye job. It's only original once! As for the wheels, those Daisy mags were popular in the late '60's through the very early '70's...they are not '80's vintage. They have probably been on the car since it was near new. No worries running them with new radial tires, if you like the look and fitment. Your 'garage find' just keeps looking better and better, IMO..........a very rare and nicely optioned HO car.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

Thank you.
My budget is tight so I was avoiding having to buy wheels and tires. I’d prefer stock look if possible but I may just run those wider mags for a bit then sell to get new wheels. The tires are all shot so afraid to drive on them now.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

I think the 15-9 or 15-10s on front are too wide so maybe pick up a used set for fronts.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

First big issue-need advice! Being that my carb probably had the original filter inside I had a new one installed.
For whatever reason it started leaking out of that front line and now the large bolt won’t tighten into the carb!
The carb itself seems to have worn down threads where the large fitting was fitted all those years.
7028267 we model
One suggestion was longer fitting and another was heli coil....what are my options?


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

The larger fitting isn’t threading in.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Supersport#68 said:


> The larger fitting isn’t threading in.


I believe Cliff Ruggles sells a repair fitting for this. Check out his website. https://cliffshighperformance.com/


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

PontiacJim said:


> Supersport#68 said:
> 
> 
> > The larger fitting isn’t threading in.
> ...


It looks like I can ship mine to him but I don’t see a repair fitting. I assume something a big longer to grab the good threads?


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

I took off the carb and I’m just going to ship it to cliffs high performance.com to install heli coil and cross my fingers.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Supersport#68 said:


> I took off the carb and I’m just going to ship it to cliffs high performance.com to install heli coil and cross my fingers.


You can't go wrong with Cliff. He is honest and very knowledgeable. In fact, he wrote THE book on Quadrajets, most of us have a copy:


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The early Quadrajets had the seal on the end of the fitting, instead of on the head-end. Time and electrolysis rot the zinc/alloy threads. Sending your carb to Cliff was about the best thing you could have done. If it is an original-to-the-car carburetor, you would be shocked at it's value. I'm talking probably $2000 just for the core. Glad it's in good hands!!


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

geeteeohguy said:


> The early Quadrajets had the seal on the end of the fitting, instead of on the head-end. Time and electrolysis rot the zinc/alloy threads. Sending your carb to Cliff was about the best thing you could have done. If it is an original-to-the-car carburetor, you would be shocked at it's value. I'm talking probably $2000 just for the core. Glad it's in good hands!!


Wow! It shipped today to Cliff so glad I did.


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

On another note, I’m battling budget. It appears I’m going to just run my 15x9 or 10 wheels. Right now I have 235/60/15 front and it just clears wheel trim. Is that a safe size tire to run on the front or should I do 50 series front and back?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Stick with 60 series all around, IMO. 7 inch rims up front are about max on the earlier GTO's, not sure of a '68. If you are good clearance-wise, you can use the wheels on the car. You could run 50's out back if they clear. Pay attention to tire height.....you want at least a 26.5" tall tire in the rear (which is about what the stock tires were). You may be on a budget, but rest assured, every dime you spend on your '68 will increase its value and make it a better car. Again, with the way your car is optioned, you are in a win-win position. Keep us updated!
Jeff


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## Supersport#68 (Sep 24, 2018)

geeteeohguy said:


> Stick with 60 series all around, IMO. 7 inch rims up front are about max on the earlier GTO's, not sure of a '68. If you are good clearance-wise, you can use the wheels on the car. You could run 50's out back if they clear. Pay attention to tire height.....you want at least a 26.5" tall tire in the rear (which is about what the stock tires were). You may be on a budget, but rest assured, every dime you spend on your '68 will increase its value and make it a better car. Again, with the way your car is optioned, you are in a win-win position. Keep us updated!
> Jeff


Right now it has 295/50/15 rear and clears so I was thinking 265 or 275/50/15s. Stick with 235/60/15 front since not rubbing.


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