# fresh rebuild - oil pressure



## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

Hi!

Yesterday we finished my engine. It startet good and makes about 80psi of oil pressure at idle when cold with the M54f pump and 15w40 oil.

As the oil gets warmer and warmer the idle pressure will drop to 30psi at 180° and 20-25psi at 200°. Idle speed was 750rpm.

This seems a little low in my opinion. What do you think?

When I rev the engine (hot, 200°) it will climb fast and read over 60psi at 2000rpm... even if I just idle a little higher (at about 1000rpm) it will read about 30psi again. I didn't rev the engine higher than 3000rpm on the street until now, but at 3000rpm driving speed it is constant 65psi at 200-210° oil temp.


What do you think? 

Could the assembly lube (we put it on all bearings, cam gear, dist gear and cam lobes) clog the filter or the oil pressure fitting a little? 

Chris


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Sounds fine to me Chris. I wouldn't worry just yet.

Bear


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

Good to hear, thanks Bear!
It was horrible to install the engine to the car again... took us the whole day. But when we fired it up there was a smile in everybodys face 

I just thought it should never make less then 30psi even hot.

I forgot.. maybe I have 0.4 to 0.5 litres too much oil in there. Could this or the assembly lube have any effect on the pressure reading?!
There are no strange noises.. it runs really nice. Before the rebuild I coulnd't let it idle at 750rpm.. it wouldn't run smoothly under 850-900rpm. So maybe I just had a little more idle pressure before the rebuild because it made 100-150rpm more?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Acceptable oil pressure is 10psi per 1000 rpm. 30psi at idle is strong oil pressure, about three times more than needed. You have nothing to worry about right now. Great job!


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

That's good news  I had to spend that much time for the rebuild that I may worry too much about every little thing. Time and money won'd grow on trees, I'm really happy that it's finished.. at least the hard and expensive part.

I will adjust the carb and let it idle a Little higher.. maybe 850rpm. That will guarantee 20psi or more when the engine is hot.. and with some rpm the pressure is that high that I don't worry about it... at cruise it will never go lower than 50psi and never go higher than 90psi if I rev the engine to 5000rpm (didn't try that on the street yet, just in the garage with no load on the engine).

Can a new filter and oil after the break in period raise the oil pressure a little? I heared that some filters can be damaged by high pressures (90psi is a lot I guess) and the assembly lube (a lot!) and debris from the break in could also clog the filter a little I thought. Is it common that after the break-in period the pressure will increase because of this?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Revving your engine to 5000 without a load on it is a bad idea. Great way to spin a bearing, especially on a 428 like yours. _Don't do that. _Most Pontiacs bybass the filter at pressures above 60PSI. Different oils and filters can result in slight oil pressure differences.


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

Okay thanks for that information!

Today it started to make some noise at the lifters. There is not much if any oil splashing when I remove the valve covers and start the engine. But it has oil under the covers.

Also the pressure dropped to 15psi at hot idle and wouldn't go higher than 35psi when I drove it. I stopped driving because I got worried even more.

At home I removed the filter and drained the oil.. there was something sticky on the drain plug.. maybe black silicone. The oil looks grey-brown.. maybe it washed out all the Ultra torque, assembly lube and some silicone. I don't have a tool to open the filter, I'll go to the shop tomorrow to do this. But on the magnetic drain plug and in the oil there was no metal to be found.

When the car cooled down a litte it made 40psi at idle again. But still there was the ticking in the lifters and no oil splashing all around with the valve covers removed.

Maybe it will be better when I put in a new oil and filter tomorrow, but if not I'll have to search somewhere else because I don't think thats good.

Is it possible that we have to readjust the valve lash after some driving on a fresh rebuild engine? We set the lash when engine was cold and outside of the car.. I dipped the lifters into oil before installing them, but I don't think I can fill them by doing so.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Man Chris, this thing is just fighting you every step of the way. You're right to take it slow and check things out. There's a lot of molybdenum in assembly lube that will tend to collect at the drain plug after break in. Rechecking the lifter settings sounds like a good idea. 

Keep us informed. .

Bear


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

The engine gave me some hard times and it doesn't seem to end 

I now changed oil and filter, the old filter didn't have more than normal wear in it the mechanic said... that's from the break-in. I now have some 10w40 and a Wix filter... it will make 80psi cold, 20psi hot and the pressure increases as rpm increases... about 70psi at 2500rpm.

Still there is the lifter noise that wasn't there from the beginning. I opened the valve covers again and when I increase rpm it will spit oil like it should, but not all rocker arms do that equally.. some don't spit the oil.. is it possible that These rocker arms need to be re-adjusted and that they make the ticking noise? It's hard to say which one makes the noise even if the covers are open... but there is probably more than 1 that ticks. (about 4 don't spit oil, maybe these 4 need adjustment?)

I guess if a gallery plug dropped out I wouldn’t have that much pressure even cold and I couldn’t see the oil at the rocker arms.

The pressure gauge needs 1-2 seconds until it will react when I start the engine, is that okay? There is no noise (rattle, tick...) at the 1-2 seconds when the gauge shows 0psi. After that it will go slowly to 80psi. When I rev the engine it also reacts a little lame.. I think it was faster in the past (before the rebuild).


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Look at the pushrods and verify that they are all spinning at the same rate of speed. A tight valve adjustment will spin very slowly or not at all; a loose valve adjustement will have the pushrod spinning like crazy. A quick and easy check.


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

I now set them all to zero lash with the method Bear told me once.. it's better but there is still some tícking.. probably more on the drivers side.
After that I remembered that I can readjust them while the engine is running.. so I tried that.. passenger side worked well, but on the driver side I cannot get rid of the ticking.. it just got a little better. 
I did loosen the polylock until I could hear it tick, then adjusted it until I could not hear the lifter ticking and gave it a 1/2 turn. At some rockers I could feel the difference, the engine ran better when it was tightend up.

Every rocker gets oil, some a litte more than others.. if I rev it there are some that will spit oil really wide, other just drop more oil out of the top.

Oil pressure was now always above 30psi but I didn't drive it, so it didn't get hotter than 180° oil temp. With a small rpm increase there was 70-80psi again like it should be.

I'm now curious why my lifters are ticking and if it will keep these pressures when I drive it.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Chris,

I would email Butler or your cam/lifter maker and let them know your findings. If tightening the lifters seemed to improve things, then it sounds like you are going in the right direction. I have read that some lifters need a turn or more to set the preload while running. I can not say this about your lifters because I don't know, so I think an email to Butler or the cam/lifter maker would be helpful to you and clear things up.:thumbsup:


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

I'll ask Butler, thanks. They sent me Erson roller lifters and Scorpion rocker arms.

Another question.. why will it suck air through the valve cover bolt holes on the driver side cylinder head and on the passenger side it won't? I always need to install the bolts if I open the valve covers or the engine will suck air.

And the other thing.. what would happen if the valley pan bolts are too long?


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## Cory (Mar 2, 2014)

Chris, 10w 40 is a little thinner than 15w 40, might help explain lower oil readings. 
On a properly adjusted valve the pushrods seats against the rocker transferring oil through. If the adjustment is (loose) there is excess clearance, generally it'll cause a "tick" but it might also explain why some rockers don't squirt?

Make sure the set screws are tight before your do your valve adjust, if they are and your valves are loose I'd suspect cam or lifter wear?


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## Cory (Mar 2, 2014)

Some how I missed the second page on this post, sorry about the redundant comments.

When roller cams first started being offered for Pontiac years back, there wasn't a lot on line. I learned the hard way about lifter/valley pan clearance. I had a weird valve train ticking, and my valley pan rattled loose. My first thoughts were I had too long of valley pan bolts? Just a thought

Definitely call Butler 

Just a thought.


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

My first test drive after the oil change is now finished.
Pressure was 60-80 while driving, depending on rpm. I drove uphill for some miles, at 2500rpm it made constant 50psi with 210° oil. On the way down it made 70psi and the oil cooled down to 180°. 

I stopped after 40 minutes and watched the hot idle for some minutes... didn't go below 25psi at 800rpm at 210-215° oil temp. I guess the oil will not get much hotter even in summer, so the oil should not get much thinner than that..

When I started driving again the psi increased fast to more than 60psi again and didn't go below 45psi while I was driving pretty slow with low rpm.

Maybe the oil filter and oil change gave me back some pressure, that doensn't worry me much if it will stay that way.


But still there is this ticking noise... I think it got better when the engine got hotter... I'll check the header gaskets later when it's cooled down. Maybe it's not the lifters but an exhaust leak?! Can't say it for sure, but the engine ran fine with the newly adjusted valve lash that I did yesterday.

Oh and if you are interested:


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

For anyone who is interested, I've got some news.

Since I switched from 10w40 to 5w50 synthetic oil, the oil pressure is a little "better". That means I could add about 5psi when the engine is hot and when cold it starts easier. I also think that it takes more time to get the oil up to operating temp since I changed it.

I like the Valvoline VR1 5w50 a lot and I'm no longer worried about the pressure readings... maybe 20w50 would increase the pressure even a little more but it doesn't seem necessary and the 5w50 flows much better I guess.

At break in I used 15w40 which needed a change pretty soon. After that I used the 10w40 mineral based oil for about 600 miles to make sure the piston rings don't get full synthetics for some time and now I use the 5w50. It won't make the engine drop oil or something, someone said to me that synthetics are more likely to leak than mineral based oils, I can't confirm that. And because it's still VR1 oil, it has enough ZDDP in it.. I use a roller cam but ZDDP won't hurt anything I guess unless it's too much.

Here are some pictures:


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## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Love the burnout pic Chris! Nice hot rod no doubt about it. Also noticed the third pedal, stick shift guy for life right here!

I was just going to chime in and say to tighten the header bolts again and seen you mentioned it. Looks like you run aluminum heads, heat cycle the engine a few times to full operating temp then fully cooled off and snug them up. Then do it again around 1000 miles. Might be the source of your tick. Also, did you soak the lifters in oil or just dip them on assembly? You should be soaking roller lifters and rockers at least 24 hours to make sure every nook had oil touch it before start up. 

Also as far as your oil distribution concerns under the valve covers its not a bad idea to blast brake cleaner and a tiny pipe cleaner through every push rod upon assembly. did you guys do that? Just cause they are new parts doesnt mean a little bit of crud isnt lodged in the push rod restricting oil. All galley plugs are installed too? 

Your oil pressure seems fine you are just paranoid cause its your new awesome engine. Rightfully so. Both with melling pumps my old 400 and now my 455 are both 60-70psi at idle cold on start up and 10-15psi hot at 700rpm idle with 10-40 oil. Been that way with both engines for the 14 years ive had my car. I think you're good there.


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

Good to hear Bensjammin and thank you 
I was worried because I believed it needs about 30psi at hot idle, but everyone told me that my 20psi or a little more with the 5w50 oil is fine.

I cleaned all the parts and did put the chain, gears and lifters in oil before installing.

After the first oil change I removed all of the pushrods and cleaned them again with brake cleaner and compressed air. It wasn't a big difference but I think it makes more mess now when the engine is running with the valve covers off, so I don't worry about that.

The ticking isn't bad now, you can hear it a little but I guess that is what Butler meant when he told me that my roller valvetrain is a little more noisy than the flat tappet.

I did re-tighten the header bolts as well as the head bolts after the first heat-cycle. I still have the feeling that the noise may be located at the headers.. but on the other hand it's not much, maybe you wouldn't notice it if you didn't listen as hard as I do.. passengers never asked about the noise that I can (hardly) hear 

If your engines didn't fail over such a long time with 10-15psi hot idle I guess I don't have to worry at all. With 10w40 the lowest reading was 18psi at 240°F oil temp after a long drive on the Autobahn. At cruise the pressure was always at least 30psi or more... for example at 240° and 3000rpm it's about 60psi (cold it's about 85-90psi at this rpm).

Probably you use the 60psi pump's... I use the 80psi version from Melling which we inspected as well before installing.


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## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Yah man I think you are good to go. And you just had to mention the Auto Bahn.. Every Drivers dream. I bet thats fun! Closest thing I have to that is the Ohio Turnpike where the speed limit is 70 haha


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

In my country the speed limit is 80mph. But it's just a 10 minute drive to the Autobahn in Germany! But I have to admit I like it more to drive it up into the mountains.. such a nice place and streets without traffic.. speed limit is 50-60mph most of the time but you won't get arrested if you drive a little faster 

I was thinking about a TH200-R4 transmission for my GTO.. with that tranny and some better brakes I could enjoy the german Autobahn a little more I guess.


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## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Chris-Austria said:


> In my country the speed limit is 80mph. But it's just a 10 minute drive to the Autobahn in Germany! But I have to admit I like it more to drive it up into the mountains.. such a nice place and streets without traffic.. speed limit is 50-60mph most of the time but you won't get arrested if you drive a little faster
> 
> I was thinking about a TH200-R4 transmission for my GTO.. with that tranny and some better brakes I could enjoy the german Autobahn a little more I guess.


The purists on this board will probably have my head for saying this :00/o:

But in my honest opinion 1:1 final trans gears like found in the TH350s, TH400s and muncies have no place in todays world unless an OD is not in the budget yet which I of all people FULLY understand. With so many OD options auto and stick its a no brainer. Yes it can get expensive some times and yes it is time consuming to convert but you wouldnt be an active member on this forum if you were not an enthusiast who wants the most from your hot rod. I say go for it and sooner the better! Over drive makes all the difference in driving enjoyment in my personal opinion. Especially for our Pontiac mills that are bottom end torque monsters not rpm lovers like sbc's.


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

The only problem is the price.. you can add about 1/3 to the costs of the part in the US until it's over here and shops are very expensive if you cannot install it by yourself. A TKO would need some work and I calculated about $1500 only for the work without parts.. parts are like I said your price + 33%. But I hope I can do it anyway, just don't know when  
I hate it to drive 60 or 70mph on our Autobahn and be overtaken even by almost everyone.. it just isn't nice to drive the GTO for a longer period of time at higher speeds... The other good argument is fuel consumption.. I need about $56 for 100 miles.. only for the gas... and it puts a lot of stress on the engine if I drive it at 4000rpm all the time, with an overdrive the engine life would probably be largely increased.

But I can also understand that many people want everything stock and so they need to drive their 1:1 transmission.. with a 2.xx:1 rear end it may be just fine. I also thought about a 2.93:1 rear end swap, that's the longest rear end that would work well with my engine I guess.. but it won't be cheap anyway and a new transmission would just be more fun in every condition of driving.


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