# 1964 GTO Engine



## firemedic835 (Sep 22, 2017)

I recently purchased a 1964 GTO from the original owner. I do have the title from 1964. I sent the information to Pontiac Historic Society and they confirmed it was the car on the tag. The owner is in his late 70's and stated he never changed anything on the car. Last week i decided to do some light cleaning in the engine compartment. Old hosed, belt, dust and dirt etc... anyway on the front of the Block is the letters WJ. I cant find that code anywhere in a 1964. Does anyone have any suggestions? Possibly an engine swap that he doesn't remember?


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Shortblock has been changed at some time. most likely a 421 shortblock, & most likely out of a '65 or '66 Catalina 2+2 with top option 421HO Tripower. Possible use could have been a Bonneville, but very few were so equipped. I've had a '65 WJ shortblock before, took a while to sell it, but ended up dating & fit perfectly in a factory built '65 421HO 4spd 2+2. You will need to ck the casting date back by the distributor to determine exact model year usage. Also possible, the shortblock is a 428 out of a '69 B series with manual trans & 428HO option. Very rare application, just not that many still around to restore  

Memories tend to fade with time. Have been working with the local original owner of a 4spd '70 GTO for the last 8 months. Have known this fellow and his car since the late 80's. Numerous engine and drivetrain items have been changed out over the years, and there have been instances that parts that hace been used don't match with the owners recollections. Have seen this many times before, it's not uncommon, even when the owner did most vehicle maintaince. Swapped out original casting cyl heads, swapped out original Q-jet, missing original points distributor, PS added with incorrect engine pulley... have seen it all. Don't fret, the 4 bolt main 421 or 428 is a great foundation. If the '64 is an original tripower manual trans car, and you are looking for an original tripower 4spd block, they are out there, I've had two over the years & have passed on half a dozen others, as am not a '64 guy.


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## firemedic835 (Sep 22, 2017)

Date code looks like July 66


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## firemedic835 (Sep 22, 2017)

Yes, PHS sent me the information which stated it was a 389 Tri power 3 speed


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## firemedic835 (Sep 22, 2017)

It does currently have a 4 speed


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

L076 denotes Nov 6th, 1966 casting date. An original WJ codes block with that date is a '67 428HO manual trans block. Another oddity in a big car.

76X or 76XW were the '64 tripower GTO manual trans block codes. Have yet to see an early casting date 76XW...

What is the body build date on your '64?


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## firemedic835 (Sep 22, 2017)

Where do I find that?


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## firemedic835 (Sep 22, 2017)

Here is the engine and car. I think I have a picture if the tag under the hood


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## firemedic835 (Sep 22, 2017)

If you zoom in on the firewall you can see the tag, I’ll take a better one


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## firemedic835 (Sep 22, 2017)

I’ll send a picture of the build sheet soon


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

firemedic835 said:


> Here is the engine and car. I think I have a picture if the tag under the hood


That certainly does not look original. Non-factory valve covers, everything painted blue when brackets should be black. Hoses going to ? Looks like vacuum outboard carbs - which I would get rid of and go mechanical.

I suspect if you look at the center exhaust ports on the heads, you should see the casting number "16" if it is the correct heads for the 428 block. The 428 block will also have a real easy to ID tell tale lug at the rear casting of the block - unless someone cut it off to sneak it by as a 389/400CI. Take a look at the pic. It is the tall triangle shaped casting (lug) on the top right of the engine in the photo looking at it from behind. 

Take a look at this article: Detailing Tiemann's Tri-Power 389 - Part 1 - High Performance Pontiac - Hot Rod Network

Here is a supposed restoration quality 1964 GTO tripower. Compare it to what you have. Your waterneck looks more like the '65 rather than the '64 as the '64 intake won't fit the 1965 and up intake bolt pattern - which is another giveaway when ID'ing the intake/engine. https://www.ebay.com/i/351256665547?chn=ps Not sure which side the radiator hose is supposed to attach to on the inlet of the expansion tank, but that may have been swapped to work with the different waterneck as well.

If it is a 428CI, still not a bad deal if you didn't pay top dollar thinking it was the original 389CI.


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## firemedic835 (Sep 22, 2017)

I did change the calve covers, they were short and also painted blue. I ordered short ones from OPGI and got the tall ones. I think I have a picture if a diamond shaped lug on the back of the engine, next to the distributor . I’ll aend it.


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## firemedic835 (Sep 22, 2017)

I guess they weren’t blue but short and dirty, but I did change them. There is a lug in the back I’ll try to get a picture


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## firemedic835 (Sep 22, 2017)

Is the lug on the driver side of the block about 1” x 1”?


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

The transfer lug is near that size, shaped somewhat like a pyramid. The transfer lug noted the engine plant worker was to transfer the unmachined block to the large (3.25" main) journal production line for machining. The block is definitely a '67 428HO. All 421's and all '67 & 68 428's had 4 bolt main caps. The highest hp factory rated engines typically had Morraine 400 engine bearings and the the thick plate 60 lb oil pump. 

Engine accessories can easily be pulled & repainted. Before detailing, good to know what you have. Original '64 GTO's had a pair of 716 casting heads. the '64-65 timing cover has a round point instead of degreed timing marks on the timing cover. '66 & 67 original timing covers are ID'ed by the cast parts number on the face of the timing cover, the '66 & 67 timing covers will alsol have degreed timing marks. The 64 PS assembly is one year piece, these often have been changed out on '64's that began life as manual strg cars, the pump setup as well as crank and wp pulleys. A '64 tripower intake will not fit on '65-79 cylinder heads, so if later heads, most likely has a '65 tripower intake. 

Ck'ing your info, you have a relatively late '64 production '64 GTO hardtop. Knew the P298xxx VIN was late, your pic of the cowl tag shows an early July of '64 body build. Being home assembly plant, the original drivetrain parts should be fairly close dated. Trying to get the car back to correct '64 pieces, feel free and drop me a line.


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## firemedic835 (Sep 22, 2017)

Thank you very much for the information and help, I will absolutely be in touch. ken


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## firemedic835 (Sep 22, 2017)

What would you call top dollar?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

*PJ*: OK, just wanted to wrap up this thread to point out that some things are not as they should be and unless you do the research yourself to verify that the car is what is stated, by either the original owner or some one else, you do not know what you are getting.

5/7/2018 *firemedic835*: "I recently purchased a 1964 GTO from the original owner. The owner is in his late 70's and stated he never changed anything on the car."

5/28/2018 *firemedic835*: "I did speak to Mr. Williams ( the original owner from 1964 ) he purchased it when he left the military in 1964. He said he swapped the motor in 1968."

*PJ*: This makes a big difference in the cars originality & value and the selling/purchase price. Never take anyone's word for it without PHS documentation in hand and/or verify codes & numbers- unless originality is not important and you just like the car and feel comfortable with the selling price. Personally, I don't care about originality as I don't buy cars as investments or flip for profits, but rather to drive and use - the bigger the HP the better. :thumbsup:


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## firemedic835 (Sep 22, 2017)

PJ. I’ll send you the documents I received from PHS. The only thing that doesn’t match is the engine. Ed did tell me he replaced It in 1967. Like you said he wanted bigger and better. I also have the original title. I paid the three hundred for a lost title so I could keep it and show it was an original owner vehicle. Here is the window sticker.


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## firemedic835 (Sep 22, 2017)

I have one more that didn’t fit.


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## firemedic835 (Sep 22, 2017)

PJ. I did buy it to drive. You seem to have a lot of knowledge about the GTO. You have been a great help. I honestly have never owned a GTO and had no Idea of the worth, enthusiasm or history behind the vehicle. My plans are to never sell it! My brother had a 65 LeMans when we were kids but he totaled it two weeks after he got it. If you get a chance please look over the paperwork from PHS and let me know what you think. Thanks again Ken


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## firemedic835 (Sep 22, 2017)

A picture of the interior, my son is in the car. This is before I purchased it.


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## Nicholas (Jan 16, 2017)

firemedic835 said:


> Yes, PHS sent me the information which stated it was a 389 Tri power 3 speed


Just wondering, how did you get that sheet in your thread?? I have mine from PHS, but it is very plain and on paper; not laminated. I'd like to get a copy like you did, or is that the original one?? BTW, nice car. Thanks.


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## firemedic835 (Sep 22, 2017)

I paid an extra $15.00 to PHS


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## firemedic835 (Sep 22, 2017)

Thanks for the nice car comment. I really enjoy it.


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## Nicholas (Jan 16, 2017)

firemedic835 said:


> I paid an extra $15.00 to PHS


My build sheet was already available when I bought my '71. Came with the car. I didn't know about the other sheet until I saw yours. Going to look into getting one. Thanks.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

firemedic835 said:


> PJ. I did buy it to drive. You seem to have a lot of knowledge about the GTO. You have been a great help. I honestly have never owned a GTO and had no Idea of the worth, enthusiasm or history behind the vehicle. My plans are to never sell it! My brother had a 65 LeMans when we were kids but he totaled it two weeks after he got it. If you get a chance please look over the paperwork from PHS and let me know what you think. Thanks again Ken


The paperwork is very important as it documents that your car is a true Lemans with the GTO option. The 1964-'65 GTO was an option and no doubt many Lemans' have been cloned and passed on as original to those unknowing buyers who took the word of the seller. I would not have known what to look for myself before joining this forum and learning of the PHS documents. So even though yours may not be 100% original, I don't think that is as detracting as it is as important that yours is a documented factory original GTO.

The '68 WT 400 is rated at 335HP. The 348HP 389 and 335HP 400 use the same identical spec'd cam. In 1964 it was known as the "009" while the same '68 cam was known as the "067". Add the tri power to the 400 and I would say you have essentially the same HP rating with the exception of a mere few cubic inches.

The tri power is one of the things I see most at car shows. You would think every GTO came with one, but we know different. You can document yours, so another plus to the originality of your car. 

The 4-speed can only increase value rather than detract as most prefer the 4-speed whether original or not - its is one of those things that defines a GTO. Any 3-speed, in my opinion, would eventually have gotten swapped out for a 4-speed. Keep in mind that the Muncie was a lot more readily available back then. In the early '80's, I used to buy and/or sell a Muncie for $50-$75, and was never that aware of the designations of M-20, M-21, or M-22, but knew that a "Rock Crusher" was a trans to have IF you could get one because even back then they were far and few between and not cheap - so out of my wheeling and dealing range back then. The more expensive were the "Ford Top-loaders" for Fords or "Hemi 4-speeds" for the Mopar guys.

The thing I like is that you can drive the car and "use" the power as needed. You don't have to worry about breaking an engine or trans and drive it like a little old man to ensure you never break the original numbers matching drive train. Now if you break the engine or trans, easy enough to replace without feeling you just lost your best friend. LOL. Takes a load off your shoulders when you row hard through the gears or burn rubber to impress the chicks (your son's of course! LOL). 

So if you are happy with the car and feel you got it at a fair price, then that is all that matters. If you paid more than what it was worth, that is OK too if it is a car you have always wanted. I have a tendency to be like that, If I see something I like and want, then price is not always the concern simply because I like it and know if I don't make the purchase at that time, another may not pop up and then I am kicking myself. We all want a deal, but sometimes the deal is in paying the asking price and enjoying the car more. :thumbsup:


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

I am not sure if you are interested but I have a block that is a 78x that is correct for that car. The date is early 64 but 100% correct for that car.


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