# Muffler Delete Help



## GTOhmygod (Mar 9, 2006)

I dont have the tools to do this job...and I would probley f#@$ it up.:confused Where is a good place to have this done. I was thinking any muffler shop so I called Mitus and they said they might be able to do it...Any advice would be good. Thanks


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## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

Most places won't do it because it makes your car illegal to drive on american highways. There's one shop here that if you even MENTION removing cats/mufflers, they'll ship you out the door (which is a bit extreme in my opinion). Realistically, this should be pretty easy to do yourself. I hope you're ready for a LOUD car though...you might want to get your fillings double-checked, 'cause if they're loose, you're gonna rattle 'em out. haha


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## DAH GTO (Mar 5, 2005)

I took mine to a muffler shop and they said as far as they were concerned, the resonator could be viewed as a muffler, so they wouldn’t have a problem removing the muffler. I thought about it until I read the below article and then changed my mind. 

The effects of back pressure


A muffler is an ambiguity in the performance world, as it can have both good and bad effects on power output. Back pressure is essential for peak power in almost any application, even 6000hp alcohol-burning Top Fuel dragsters have some built-in back pressure. Before we begin this discussion, take note that 1 atmosphere is the pressure that air is at naturally (uncontained) at sea level.

During the combustion process, when the exhaust valve is open, all of the compressed (and depleted) air-fuel mixture spills out from the cylinders as fast as it can, through your exhaust manifold, into your catalytic converter(s), the muffler, and finally out the tail pipe. The problem with this is, just before your exhaust valve is about to close again, your intake valve opens up, allowing the fresh air-fuel mixture to rush into the cylinders. This is called overlap, and one of the things you take into consideration when choosing a cam, because it can be used to your advantage.

If there was no valve overlap, it would be 100% impossible to completely irradicate all of the spent gases from the cylinder. This has a two-fold effect on power output, depending on what RPM the motor is running at. At low RPM, this effect actually increases torque, because the least amount of compression is lost during the intake stroke, and the ratio of intake to exhaust gases is high. Unfortunately, as the RPMs increase, there is increasingly less time to evacuate the exhaust gases during the exhaust stroke, and more and more depleted air-fuel remains in the cylinders when the exhaust valve closes. The motor becomes incredibly inefficient near its readline. A motor designed for high-torque applications, such as towing, tends to exhibit less valve overlap then normal. The type of cam used in this application is often called an "RV" cam, because a recreational vehicle doesn't need horsepower as much as it needs low-end torque to get it moving.

Your car would also run terribly if there was too much valve overlap as well. When exhaust gases rush out of the cylinder, they create a low pressure area in the cylinder and the exhaust system, sucking the intake charge right into the cylinder, and right back out into the exhaust system. This is called scavenging. When that air spills out, so does the fuel it was carrying, so the O2 sensor reports a rich condition to the computer, often causing further decreases in the amount of fuel the computer injects. At low RPMs, this effect is most pronounced as there is sufficient time to suck out a significant portion of the intake charge, reducing torque. As the RPMs increase, however, the extra velocity imparted to the intake charge increases the amount that squeezes into the cylinder after the exhaust valve closes, as the valve closes so quickly at high RPMs that barely any intake charge escapes through the exhaust system.

No doubt you see the dilemna posed to designers when they choose a cam for the motor - the right combination of power must be achieved at the intended RPM range of the vehicle - if this is a tiny four cylinder, which must spin high RPM to make any power at all, you have to design in a higher amount of overlap. If the vehicle is mostly intended for low speed towing, you design in a smaller amount of overlap for more low-end grunt. Overlap is one of the reasons why the four-cylinder Acura Integra GS-R makes 170hp at almost 7000 RPM, and your 3.0L makes 171lb-ft of torque at 2000 RPM.

You can't control your overlap without changing the cams, but the effects caused by changing the back pressure are the same. When you reduce back pressure, it is equivalent to increasing valve overlap, and when you increase back pressure, it is the same as decreasing the amount of valve overlap. That's why some people will say, "you need a muffler for torque", or, "you'll have more high-end, but less torque, if you run straight exhaust". They are right, but a muffler's purpose is to reduce sound output, not horsepower! By reducing back pressure in an exhaust system, you increase high-end horsepower at the cost of low-end torque.

You can compensate for this by increasing the velocity of the intake charge. Increasing the intake velocity has the added side effect of increasing back pressure, because there is more air to be evacuated during the exhaust stroke. Note that if you increase intake velocity past the limits of the exhaust system, the gains you achieve are diminished to the point of being non-existent. That power will be there when you do upgrade the exhaust system, which is why something as simple as upgrading the exhaust system can result in huge horsepower gains.

You can decrease back pressure by increasing the size of your exhaust manifolds, or using separate tubes for each cylinder (called headers). Increasing the size of the exhaust pipe and decreasing its length also helps, as well as installing high-flow catalytic converters and mufflers. Of course, you could just cut them off. Although it is illegal in the United States to remove the catalytic converter in a registered vehicle, the muffler is a different story...


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## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

Exhaust is actually quite complicated. The length of your exhaust can also increase/decrease power (by changing the frequency of the exhaust gasses), that's why they have to standardize the F1 cars' exhaust length. The engineers could "tune" the powerband of the cars by lengthening or shortening the exhaust pipes. Obviously, the same thing would work with our cars, but I have no idea what the optimum length would be.
Other interesting things that the F1 cars have done is to put the exhaust outlet in a very low-pressure area, which in effect, "sucks" out the spent air/fuel mixture from the cylinders, which also made more power. In theory, it would be similar to adding a supercharger/turbo (although sucking the gasses out would be far more technical and difficult to do than forcing air in).
Anyway, that really doesn't have much to do with your original question, but there's a lot of great information about exhaust out there if you search. 
We now return you to your normally scheduled thread, already in progress...
:seeya:


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2006)

I don't know if there is info. already out there or not but on some vehicled (like mine) the cats are restrictive enough that removing the mufflers does not adversely affect backpressure, therefore you get an increase in sound without messing up the exhaust dynamics (which I assume is your goal).

However, I am soon to be installing an X-pipe so I won't have cats anymore. If I removed my mufflers as well my backpressure would likely be far too low and cause low-end torque to drop off.

Research well, as others have said...


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## GTOhmygod (Mar 9, 2006)

Thank for the help guys...I have decided against it. Ill just get new mufflers.


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## Pennsylvania Goat (Jul 22, 2005)

I did this and would do it again in a heartbeat. 

I see little to no effect on the car's performance since the stock piping, cats and resonator all still exist. There have been plenty to show an increase in HP over their stock setups sans mufflers. 

To each is own. Enjoy either way......


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## GTOhmygod (Mar 9, 2006)

I dont think that I am willing to give up performance for loud exhaust.


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## 707GTOLS2 (Aug 31, 2005)

Pennsylvania Goat said:


> I did this and would do it again in a heartbeat.
> 
> I see little to no effect on the car's performance since the stock piping, cats and resonator all still exist. There have been plenty to show an increase in HP over their stock setups sans mufflers.
> 
> To each is own. Enjoy either way......


:agree 
I would do it again too:cool 
Next up is chopping the resonator off
I had no performance loss


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## CrabhartLSX (Feb 12, 2006)

backpressure is a lie.

What is determined by the mufflers is the velocity of exhaust gas. The higher the velocity, the higher in the power band your power is made, the lower the velocity, the lower the power is made. This is on a stock tune mind you, as the only change velocity makes is to your A/F ratio. A custom tune will take advantage of that increased velocity, resulting in increased power throughout the powerband.

Also, most EFI vehicles will get used to the different variables by themselves, and every tune in modern cars has a certain degree of flexibility for boltons.


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## GTOhmygod (Mar 9, 2006)

I Think that I am almost convinced...now if I could only hear a GOOD sound byte of the 05-06 Goat with no muffs...I heard a couple of low quality ones. One sounded like he dident have headers...sounded like crap.:rofl:


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## rgraulic (Sep 16, 2005)

flowmasters with an x pipe sound great on my 04


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## sharkbite1979 (Nov 25, 2005)

I've got a sound clip of my '06 goat with the muffler-ectomy. Completely stock otherwise, so it'll give you a good idea of the sound difference. Gimmie a few days to find and post it.


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## Grey-Goat (Jun 7, 2005)

Your not going to notice any loss in power. I got rid of my resonators and put Bullet mufflers in place of my stock mufflers, which are pretty much straight through anyway, and I didn't notice any loss in power.


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