# Rocker Arm Misalignment



## colonial83 (Jun 7, 2008)

Just had my '64 389 rebuilt and have 540 miles on the engine. Had the screw in studs installed in the original heads. Has the Comp XE268 cam with the 988 valve springs. Ran fine until this weekend when I noticed surging. Found an oil fouled plug on #6 cylinder. Replace plug and took it on the interstate. When I got home I smelled oil and lifted the hood to see smoke coming from the breather cap on the valve cover and oil all over the valve cover and firewall. Called the builder and he suggested I take the intake off suspecting it sucked a gasket in. I pulled the valve cover off first and went no further. This is what I found. What in the world could have caused this. I tried readjusting the rocker but it will walk off center everytime and rides the very edge of the valve stem. It is also very darker in color than the other rockers indicating it got super hot. Engine temperature was in the 190 - 200 range. It does move up and down like the others and there is no unusual noise, but the idle is rough. The stud looks straight to the naked eye but I really cannot tell. I emailed the pictures to the builder to ask him does he want the head back or just ship him the whole motor. Anyone else ever see anything like this? I waited three months for this rebuild and now I am just sick that I may have to pull this motor again and ship it to him.


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

Pull the push rod out and roll it on a flat surface to see if it is bent. It could be that the stud is bent also. Oil out the breather might be blow by. Could have dropped a valve. If you have a compression tester, check that cylinder.


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## colonial83 (Jun 7, 2008)

Checked the pushrod, it is straight. Valve is still intact. Cylinder pressure is 175.


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

What does the rocker arm look like on the inside and the pivot ball? Some thing is bent or warped/ broke.


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## 69Goatee (Aug 14, 2009)

Take a rocker, ball and pushrod from another cylinder and install it on the stud that is misaligned. If it sits straight, then the rocker or ball was the problem, if it is still off center then the stud is the problem. I would still replace the old rocker, ball and valve keeper. And have the valve and spring checked out.


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## colonial83 (Jun 7, 2008)

Rocker arm and ball looks good. Swapped rocker arm, ball, and pushrod from another location and it also walked to the edge when I tightened it. You are right, it must be the stud. How it got that way, I don't know. Must have been installed that way. Will talk with the builder tommorrow and see what he says. Thanks everyone for the input.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

That's bad. Looks like they misdrilled the screw in studs, converting the press in 
heads. They'll have to install a stud, cut it off, redrill it and install a new stud, unless it's just bent. Good luck..


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## pontiac (Mar 6, 2011)

the photos show stud is offset, either bent or drilled in wrong location. Also, what is with the washer? under the studs. there should be none and if there were one, they should be hardened, otherwise the stud could lose tension in the threaded hole. lose the washers, torque them in or if they don't hold torque, at least blue locktite them in place. could be under heat and load, stud moved.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

take a wrench or a socket and back up the stud a half round and see if that changes anything. definitely has been hot. check and see if the hole in the pushrod is plugged.


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## freethinker (Nov 14, 2009)

cant get the pictures to open big but from what i can see you should have pushrod guideplates. with that much cam and those springs the rocker wants to twist off the valve tip. guideplates help resist this.


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## colonial83 (Jun 7, 2008)

Dear Friends,
Thanks for all the input. I called the builder today and he said to send him the head said he would take care of it. I have the build sheet. I am supposed to have dished pistons, guide plates, aligned honed .30 over cylinders, 3-angle valve job, file fit rings, etc. 
To my horror, when I pulled the head today when I got home from work this is what I found. These are FLAT TOP pistons, just like I had in there, except these pistons look like they were laying in the back of his shop somewhere, no guide plates anywhere. The piston that looks the cleanest, #6, was where the problem was. This is my brand new engine folks with 540 miles of driving time on it. There is no way pistons could look like this after 540 miles. I have been screwed to the max. I have to calm down before I call him because my anger level is off the charts. The cylinders don't even show a crosshatch pattern, in fact, they don't look honed at all. All he did was remove the ridge at the top of the cylinder. He was supposed to lower the compression ratio with brand new 18cc dish top pistons. No wonder my cylinder compression checked 170 - 185 and the car still pings. And with the Comp Cam XE268 which is designed to raise cylinder pressure for low compression engines it makes matters worse. He states in the build sheet i am now @ 9:86:1 - I don't think so. This car was 10:75:1 from the factory and now with that cam is probably more so.
The main thing is he lied to me or he trusted someone in his shop that didn't do the proper job. I paid this company, a huge company that has been featured on the Speed Channel and whom I met through a trusted friend at a dragstrip featuring his cars , a price of $3115.00 plus $190 shipping. 
What would ya'll do in a situation like this after you calmed down. He will now get the whole motor back ,but then again, can I ever trust this company again? How can I ever be sure he will do it right?


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Looks like someone is not "doin' the right thing"....Pull it, send it back, and tell him not to forget to use new parts, and send pics of the hone work, pistons, etc. as they are PROPERLY installed!...tell him you didn't metion his name on any forums as this could be an "honest" mistake, BUT you will if he dosen't make it very right!....OR....see if he will refund the purchase price and take it elsewhere!!!!! Eric


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

looks like the headgasket was leaking between the middle cylinders too.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

66tempestGT said:


> looks like the headgasket was leaking between the middle cylinders too.


Yep, no way that is going to run right with a leaking headgasket. I do see a slight cross hatch pattern and everything looks fresh. But I agree, that is not what you ordered. Somebody didn't watch the build sheet.. Sorry and good luck.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

The one shot of the piston does show .030" oversize stamped into the piston.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

+1 with eric, we have heard tell of such tales from so called reputable builders featured in national publications and its reprehensible. I would ask for cash back including shipping and source it locally and stick to your guns, check that all your pistons are stamped 30 on the top. Do a little internet searching on his company name and see if there are other unsatisfied customers, if it's who i think it is you will find a Googles worth.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

i think i would have someone locally check it out and document the problems. im not sure i would send it back. then you have no money and no engine.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

So am I old fashioned? What happened to the days of rebuilding your own engine in your own garage with your own hands and with your own tools? If I had the where with all and the know how I'd want to machine my own block and heads...

Please tell me I am not the only one left. 
Am I crazy? 

This is the part I am looking forward to the most with my restoration. I love having an engine on a stand in my garage putting it together slowly over a couple weeks, checking and rechecking. There is nothing like the first crank and the sound of it firing up after you have it back in the car, knowing your blood is in that engine....


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## colonial83 (Jun 7, 2008)

Yes, the cylinders were prveiously bored .30 over before I purchased the car.it had about 35,000 miles on the previous rebuild. When I sent it to this builder he said it did not need a rebore, only align honing as the cylinders were a little tight, not a true .30 over. Just got off the phone with him and he was very defensive. Said these were dished pistons, that the dish is in the detent notch in the piston. I told him he said they were brand. New speed pro pistons and that they didn't look new to me. He basically told me I didn't know what I was talking about and the problems were caused by a lean condition or ignition problems. And because I didn't go up on the jet sizes on my freshley restored Tri Power. Anyway he wants the whole engine back with the intake this time and will send pictures as each step I done. He will tear it all down again and check the bearings. But our relationship is permanently strained because I don't believe a word of his explanation and is insinuating it is my faulg. I also asked him where are my pushrod guide plates that I was charged for on the build sheet. He said he will investigate it. I'll keep you informed


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

that is obviously not dished pistons. you should have someone cc the head to verify the compression that you really have. i would not take the builders word for anything from here on out. whats to say he wont send you pics of another engine. bad tune or not you didnt get what you paid for.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Pontiacpurebrred said:


> So am I old fashioned? What happened to the days of rebuilding your own engine in your own garage with your own hands and with your own tools? If I had the where with all and the know how I'd want to machine my own block and heads...
> 
> Please tell me I am not the only one left.
> Am I crazy?
> ...


I do this all the time, but you can't do the machining work without the proper machines. So I send out the block and heads to have the boring, cam bearings installed, valve work done and everything boiled out(hot tanked) then assemble everything myself.
I too find the first fire up to be totally exciting. :cheers


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Rukee said:


> I do this all the time, but you can't do the machining work without the proper machines. So I send out the block and heads to have the boring, cam bearings installed, valve work done and everything boiled out(hot tanked) then assemble everything myself.
> I too find the first fire up to be totally exciting. :cheers


Yea I send out my machine work too, but that first fire up on an engine you built .... well it's almost as good as sex. Almost. 

Glad I am not the only one still doing garage builds. Thanks Rukee for making me feel better.


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## freethinker (Nov 14, 2009)

colonial83 said:


> Yes, the cylinders were prveiously bored .30 over before I purchased the car.it had about 35,000 miles on the previous rebuild. When I sent it to this builder he said it did not need a rebore, only align honing as the cylinders were a little tight, not a true .30 over. Just got off the phone with him and he was very defensive. Said these were dished pistons, that the dish is in the detent notch in the piston. I told him he said they were brand. New speed pro pistons and that they didn't look new to me. He basically told me I didn't know what I was talking about and the problems were caused by a lean condition or ignition problems. And because I didn't go up on the jet sizes on my freshley restored Tri Power. Anyway he wants the whole engine back with the intake this time and will send pictures as each step I done. He will tear it all down again and check the bearings. But our relationship is permanently strained because I don't believe a word of his explanation and is insinuating it is my faulg. I also asked him where are my pushrod guide plates that I was charged for on the build sheet. He said he will investigate it. I'll keep you informed


my opinion. i doubt very much you could ever get a refund so that means you have to work it out with him if at all possible. is there any way you could go watch him fix it?


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## colonial83 (Jun 7, 2008)

Yes, I am stuck with him and will have to work with him on this. Cannot afford to start over with a local builder. He promised better communication an d will update me with with pictures as he goes through it.


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

I say the pistons are this(288p .030 over):
Federal Mogul Cast Pistons 389 Pontiac

Which are cast replacement pistons and seal power is their new brand name. As for the cross hatch work well maybe it was just brought up to cylinder spec. I would bore gauge the cylinders. What head number are those? Also what is the piston depth at top dead center and what is the head gasket numbers. 

Argue or not the valve guides are not there period. So I say that is the cause of the valve. He can not say other wise because he is at fault first and for most.

The engine is running fat with that much carbon, but a fat engine runs cool. So the only way that cylinder is that clean is from steam. So it would be safe to say it was leaking at the head gasket. Did the engine ever get hot why it was running like 250* or more?


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

I trust 2 engine shops one in St. Louis Terry's Machine Shop and one on the west side of Indy Mooresville Machine Shops. I also like Stegameyers in St. Charles north of St. Louis for head work.
I assemble all of my engines, so I can check the work the shop has done. Cam bearings and head assembly is the only work that I let the shop do. I still pull apart a couple valves to make sure I have new guides, valves, springs, keeps, valve job, and the seals that I ordered. Stegy did a radius valve job on the 455 I have, as he said it has millions of angles. That guy is funny.

My brother in law worked at car quest and the guy that worked in the machine shop put in the cam bearing backward on his 350 chevy. I couldn't get the cam in to save my life and found out why. He fixed it for free but man WTF.


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## colonial83 (Jun 7, 2008)

The head numbers are the original "716"'s. Here is my build and specification sheets.


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## Willshire (Jul 14, 2011)

colonial83 said:


> Dear Friends,
> Thanks for all the input. I called the builder today and he said to send him the head said he would take care of it. I have the build sheet. I am supposed to have dished pistons, guide plates, aligned honed .30 over cylinders, 3-angle valve job, file fit rings, etc.
> To my horror, when I pulled the head today when I got home from work this is what I found. These are FLAT TOP pistons, just like I had in there, except these pistons look like they were laying in the back of his shop somewhere, no guide plates anywhere. The piston that looks the cleanest, #6, was where the problem was. This is my brand new engine folks with 540 miles of driving time on it. There is no way pistons could look like this after 540 miles. I have been screwed to the max. I have to calm down before I call him because my anger level is off the charts. The cylinders don't even show a crosshatch pattern, in fact, they don't look honed at all. All he did was remove the ridge at the top of the cylinder. He was supposed to lower the compression ratio with brand new 18cc dish top pistons. No wonder my cylinder compression checked 170 - 185 and the car still pings. And with the Comp Cam XE268 which is designed to raise cylinder pressure for low compression engines it makes matters worse. He states in the build sheet i am now @ 9:86:1 - I don't think so. This car was 10:75:1 from the factory and now with that cam is probably more so.
> The main thing is he lied to me or he trusted someone in his shop that didn't do the proper job. I paid this company, a huge company that has been featured on the Speed Channel and whom I met through a trusted friend at a dragstrip featuring his cars , a price of $3115.00 plus $190 shipping.
> What would ya'll do in a situation like this after you calmed down. He will now get the whole motor back ,but then again, can I ever trust this company again? How can I ever be sure he will do it right?


Those look exactly like the pistons i just had put in. Cast federal moguls i think. My pistons look like that too (black)and i had 150 miles on before i bent an intake valve (not sure why but solving it with roller rockers, guide plates and hardened pushrods) my heads look a lot cleaner though. you sure your not runnin a tad rich? I went the cheap route on cast pistons and such but as the build went on i incurred more cost. Mine has a comp 275DEH cam and had .051 cometics (which were wrong and cometic even gave me the part #) so now i am back to 10.5:1 compression and 94 octane gas, another 700 bucks in valve train parts and the time to put it all back together. This sucks man but i certainly feel your pain.


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## colonial83 (Jun 7, 2008)

Thanks for your compassion. I am just sick over this. He will call me on Montday and discuss price with me on pulling it down and inspecting. He is concerned now about the block where the headgasket blew between the 4 and 6 cylinder. Told me to clean it real good and look for distortion. May need to deck the block but I think it is okay. He wants the intake and distributor as he feels one of these components caused the problem. He insist the car leaned out and caused this. Waiting for his price before I pull anything. The thought of pulling and shipping this motor again just takes it out of me. I am 59 and tired and just want to enjoy my car. When it is back together I will probably never floor this car again. I will not pull this engine a third time. Had the car three years and it has been o e mishap after another. In the Memphis Beat pilot, they destroyed the car so bad it was in the Shop five months. Then had the nerve to want it for the series. I said no way. They bought a tempest and painted it blue.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

I know EXACTLY how you feel! If he built the engine, he should have checked all the tolerances, etc...and known if the block needed to be decked....he will probably be REAL careful this time.....:willy::cheers(and mudbugs) Eric


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## freethinker (Nov 14, 2009)

colonial83 said:


> Thanks for your compassion. I am just sick over this. He will call me on Montday and discuss price with me on pulling it down and inspecting. He is concerned now about the block where the headgasket blew between the 4 and 6 cylinder. Told me to clean it real good and look for distortion. May need to deck the block but I think it is okay. He wants the intake and distributor as he feels one of these components caused the problem. He insist the car leaned out and caused this. Waiting for his price before I pull anything. The thought of pulling and shipping this motor again just takes it out of me. I am 59 and tired and just want to enjoy my car. When it is back together I will probably never floor this car again. I will not pull this engine a third time. Had the car three years and it has been o e mishap after another. In the Memphis Beat pilot, they destroyed the car so bad it was in the Shop five months. Then had the nerve to want it for the series. I said no way. They bought a tempest and painted it blue.


if he wont repair it for free in writing i wouldnt let him touch it. by the time you ship it back and forth you will have more cost than you could fix it for and it sounds like he is going to say "yep the distributor was bad, not my fault" and stick it to you.
if he wont fix it for free here is what i would do. i doubt the block is bad enough to need decking but check it. if its ok check your valve guide on that cylinder. replace the valve, install pushrod guideplates and put it back together with thicker head gaskets to lower the compression. i assume other than wrong pistons the shortblock is rebuilt so why rip it apart? 
option 2 for a little more money is just replace your heads with lower comp heads.
after that trash the bastard on the internet, there needs to be a cost paid for screwing people.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

wow theres another thread about the Memphis beat car on here, was'nt the one used for pilot and promo a malibu? heard somewhere that was Jason Lee's car and same thing the trashed it and would not let them use it for the series, also noticed a hardtop in some scenes and a coupe in others...stunt double? should have had them pop for the motor.


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## colonial83 (Jun 7, 2008)

My car was in the pilot only. I read somewhere the owner on tne Malibu in the promo didn't like the actor sliding across his hood and pulled his car out of the show before they used my car. But that was two years ago and had notning to do with my motor.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

:agree with Free, by the time you pay shipping back and forth and the guy charges you more money to fix his mistake you might be better off cutting your losses and finding a local guy that can do the work required to get it up and running and will show you exactly what was done to it while inspecting for damage, the thicker head gaskets will get your CR where it should be i used Titan copper gaskets at .068 to get the CR around 9.4:1 on my 463.


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## Willshire (Jul 14, 2011)

Ith the titan gaskets what does mean heads need oring'd. Is this a cut that need to be machined in. My 389 is 10.25:1 static cr and 8.23:1 dynamic cam. The difference from my last setup is about .1:1 cr so ultra 94 from sunoco will have to do. I would get the $$ back for putting the cast instead of forged pistons. As 8.5:1 is the max dynamic cr for 94 octane, I an running on the edge. I'd put titans in if I didn't have to groove the heads. And the .051 cometics I had on were the wrong ones, they stuck out into the combustion chamber (not the cylinder)


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## colonial83 (Jun 7, 2008)

Today I called the Comp Cam Tech line and asked is leaving off the pushrod guide plates could cause a rocker to walk with the cam and springs that I had. He said yes it would. Yesterday the builder said he left them off because it was such a good fit in the hole it passed through in the head, that would act as the guide and the guide plates weren't needed.
Well look what I found when I got home and took a closer look at the head. It is absolutely clear what happened now. Look at these new pictures I took this afternoon. There is no way he can deny what happened. Every cylinder except #2 was affected by a wallowing out of the pushrod hole. Eventually all of the rockers would have walked and I would have dropped a valve. Notice the darkened color of the rockers and nuts of the affected cylinders. Unaffected cylinder #2 is a normal color. Oddly the pushrods are not scuffed up, maybe because they are the Comp Cam High Energy Pushrods #7851-1 and may be harder material than the cast head. I will be emailing him these pictures.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

all that for 30.00 guide plates what a waste and that is a lame excuse for someone who should be checking clearances and know that the guide plates are there for a reason. Titan makes a non O-ring gasket too its their ICS i believe. They did not have the right bore size on mine so they took a set with the smaller bore size and opened them up for me, they also offer in all different thicknesses. and they are re-usable without annealing up to 5 times so they say....should be for the cost.


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## freethinker (Nov 14, 2009)

can you send me all those pictures by email. something doesnt look right and i cant get them to open here. i need a closer look. [email protected]


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## JustAl (Mar 20, 2010)

Sorry for your problems. Another case of a so called reputable engine builder that isn't. The push rod guides are there for a reason, and leaving them out because it looks like everything is lined up good is B.S. Obviously the problems would have progressed to other cylinders over time. Pontiac push rods are hardened because they pass through the stud mounted guides, that explaines the wear on the not-as-hard cast iron heads. This whole matter, in my opinion, is the fault of the engine assembler not necessarily the machinist. But either way they should pay all costs, if not, find someone that will stand behind their work, and let the world know who was responsible for the poor quality control so others don't get screwed.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

I also asked him where are my pushrod guide plates that I was charged for on the build sheet. He said he will investigate it. I'll keep you informed[/QUOTE]

and now he says "He" left them off....hmmmmm, why would he have to investigate if "he" made the decision to leave them off.

this is what a pontiac dished piston will look like....show the builder so he will know what the **** "he" is talking about next time he screws someone over

http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/images/Pistons/BLACK.jpg

these are the pistons you have in there by the part NO. on top

http://www.fastengineparts.com/products_view.php?id=1314

cannot find any reference to his engine kit number i suspect he may have just cleaned up your old pistons and re-ringed if the bores were good


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## Willshire (Jul 14, 2011)

Instg8ter said:


> all that for 30.00 guide plates what a waste and that is a lame excuse for someone who should be checking clearances and know that the guide plates are there for a reason. Titan makes a non O-ring gasket too its their ICS i believe. They did not have the right bore size on mine so they took a set with the smaller bore size and opened them up for me, they also offer in all different thicknesses. and they are re-usable without annealing up to 5 times so they say....should be for the cost.


I am looking at getting a set of these for my 389. Part # SCE-S28256 self sealing head gaskets. do i need to dress these or anything? or just put them on. If my bore is 4.0925" what should my gasket bore be? the above part # is 4.25 bore.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

the bigger bore size will add volume also and may effect quench, if you call them they will set you up with the closest over size to your bore or make a set for you like they did mine. they say no copper spray and the gaskets have sealant rings screen printed on them.


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## Chris Holabaugh (Jan 18, 2009)

I feel your pain. I had one local shop put my engine togther and after running it for a summer I had a bad rear main seal leak. So I had another person who is in our car club president pull the engine to repiar it and that's when we found other major problems. The biggest one was they only left 1,000 clearance between the piston and the cyclinder wall so I had to buy new pistons. Talked about suing them, but with the cost and the time it wasn't worth the agggravation. I just ended up telling everyone at are local car shows about my problems, so that may have put a dent in their business.


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## Willshire (Jul 14, 2011)

It seems that boycotting the shop that did the build is the only way to get any satisfaction at alland its not even that staisfying. My builder is gonna come good on the bent parts and giving me a deal on upgrades so I haven't got bad things to say. Those pistons the op has in his car ae new but they are cast hyper's. I'd take my build sheet to them and at least get refunded for the parts they cheaped out on


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

you have multiple problems. the head gasket caused it to run bad. thats why you pulled the valve cover off. the rocker/pushrod problem is big but until it eventually came apart it wouldnt cause any driveability issues. if it was me i would have a lawyer send him a certified letter explaining how
a. i am going to take the engine to a local shop and have them disassemble and inspect the engine. 
b. i will send him a bill for the dissasemble/inspect plus the price to repair properly (including the cost of omitted parts)

people get real anxious to work something out when they get a letter like that. 

i dont know how much of that you can make stick but im sure he knows he has done you wrong and will probably make you some sort of offer that is much more to your liking than what you have so far.


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