# n00b seeking help



## Seventh (Apr 6, 2011)

Hello all! First off let me say I did follow good forum etiquette and read the stickies, I also searched plenty before posting. I found some great info but not quite exactly the same as the problem I'm having. 

I recently picked up a '69 GTO from a buddy of mine. It's got 400/400 drivetrain, cam/carb upgrade, shift kit, posi, lots of fun. It started blowing blue smoke on him several years back and he just parked it. I finally convinced him to sell it to me for cheap (with the help of his wife ) and so I started tearing into it. The only engine problem it had was it was burning oil, otherwise ran fine. 

Hoping it was just bad valve guides/seals I yanked the heads and had them redone by my trusty local machine shop. After reassembly I had a problem. Car would run perfect for about 20-30 sec and then start stumbling like it dropped a cyl. Figured I just had messed up setting the valve lash, I re-adjusted them all at 1/4 turn instead of 1/2 turn. Same problem. Then tried just zero lash, same. Hooked up my oil press gauge and found it at about 65-70 on start up after resetting valve lash, then it would go into failure mode and start bouncing around a lot in between 18 and 45 or so psi. When it goes into failure mode it stays there until you reset the valve lash, at which point it runs fine for a bit before falling on it's face. 

Figured maybe the lifters were NFG so I got new ones and pushrods as well. Same again. :willy: At that point I started reading on teh intarwebz. Found out about the missing hidden oil galley plug, read about the grey sludge, as well as even the overly-tightened oil galley allen plug. But all I did was R&R the heads! None of those should have been changed or affected? :confused 

Called a buddy of mine who has a '72 GTO and he said he had the same problem once. I was all ears. He said the oil galley plug in the timing cover on his sprang a leak. Okay sweet! Pulled mine apart... looks fine. no signs of leakage and properly seated. :lol: So here I am, GTOF, seeking guidance from the pros. Flame and bash me all you want but PLEASE help me fix this!!!


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

maybe oil pump pick-up blockage? does it still have stock rocker arm studs and rockers with (bottle shaped), notorious for backing off if you do not install new nuts, upgrade to chevy style floating with poly locks is bes? may have wiped a lobe on the cam on re-start also. Did you check timing chain for slack when you had water pump off?...just guessing :confused


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## Seventh (Apr 6, 2011)

Instg8ter said:


> maybe oil pump pick-up blockage? does it still have stock rocker arm studs and rockers with (bottle shaped), notorious for backing off if you do not install new nuts, upgrade to chevy style floating with poly locks is bes? may have wiped a lobe on the cam on re-start also. Did you check timing chain for slack when you had water pump off?...just guessing :confused


Hey thanks for the response! Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated! I hadn't considered pickup blockage, it is dropping #3 cylinder which is on the driver side, opposite the filter mount, so oil supply is almost certainly the problem. I'm just struggling to wrap my head around the "why?" aspect of it. Haha And yes the timing chain is loose as a goose, so I'm going to replace it while I'm in there, but again, the thing ran so great right before I yanked the heads... so confused about it all.


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## freethinker (Nov 14, 2009)

Seventh said:


> Hey thanks for the response! Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated! I hadn't considered pickup blockage, it is dropping #3 cylinder which is on the driver side, opposite the filter mount, so oil supply is almost certainly the problem. I'm just struggling to wrap my head around the "why?" aspect of it. Haha And yes the timing chain is loose as a goose, so I'm going to replace it while I'm in there, but again, the thing ran so great right before I yanked the heads... so confused about it all.


erratic oil pressure will not cause a miss. what kind of adjusting nuts do you have. stock pontiac nuts are non adjustable.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

If it still has the factory bottleneck rocker studs and ball nuts, and also since you say it runs fine after a re-lash but then goes "sour", try this: torque the rocker nuts to 20 ft lbs and give it a shot. That's the "normal" factory procedure for Pontiacs that still have the stock valve train. They aren't adjustable. If it still won't behave, then I'd go ahead and bite the bullet: pitch the bottle neck studs and replace with 7/16" BBC-style studs, ditch the ball nuts and replace with poly-locks, then it should stay where you put it.

Bear


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## Seventh (Apr 6, 2011)

freethinker said:


> erratic oil pressure will not cause a miss. what kind of adjusting nuts do you have. stock pontiac nuts are non adjustable.


Agreed. However I was testing pressure at the filter housing. I hear it's not the preferred location... perhaps my readings are inaccurate? Not sure what kind they are in terms of brand, the rockers and nuts look like these but are not roller tip. 









I set them the way my father taught me years ago, by slowly spinning the pushrod in my fingertips until I felt it get taught, then doing a half turn. Never steered me wrong before... Even tried 1/4 turn and less...


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## Seventh (Apr 6, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> If it still has the factory bottleneck rocker studs and ball nuts, and also since you say it runs fine after a re-lash but then goes "sour", try this: torque the rocker nuts to 20 ft lbs and give it a shot. That's the "normal" factory procedure for Pontiacs that still have the stock valve train. They aren't adjustable. If it still won't behave, then I'd go ahead and bite the bullet: pitch the bottle neck studs and replace with 7/16" BBC-style studs, ditch the ball nuts and replace with poly-locks, then it should stay where you put it.
> 
> Bear


Hey thanks Bear. But would 30 seconds of run time cause it to back off... on only one cylinder... repeatedly?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Seventh said:


> Hey thanks Bear. But would 30 seconds of run time cause it to back off... on only one cylinder... repeatedly?


Oh yeah, especially if the ball nuts are worn at all. Originally they had sort of a crimp in them to make them tighter on the stud, but it doesn't take many intall/remove cycles to negate that crimp. Plus, remember that valve springs are very strong and create lots of upwards tension - couple that with the vibration present in a running engine, and I'm surprised it "only" takes it 30 seconds to back itself off.

Bear


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## Seventh (Apr 6, 2011)

The pessimist in me kinda thinks spun bearing or cracked block @ oil galley. But if a main or cam bearing were spun wouldn't it stay spun and NEVER run good, as opposed to the 30 sec of awesomeness I get before it craps out? I just want to make some sense of this before I waste any more time chasing my tail.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Seventh said:


> I set them the way my father taught me years ago, by slowly spinning the pushrod in my fingertips until I felt it get taught, then doing a half turn. Never steered me wrong before... Even tried 1/4 turn and less...


Yep, that's the way you do it === on a Chevy. But this ain't a Chevy.  Once in a blue moon you can get away with that procedure on a Pontiac, if the ball nuts are new, have a fresh crimp, and are nice and tight on the stud, and the planets align just so...

If you can deal with the oil spray, re-set them then start it with the valve covers off and watch the one(s) that don't stay adjusted. I'll bet you a nickle against the hole of a rolling do-nut you'll be able to watch it spin itself right off.

Bear


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Seventh said:


> The pessimist in me kinda thinks spun bearing or cracked block @ oil galley. But if a main or cam bearing were spun wouldn't it stay spun and NEVER run good, as opposed to the 30 sec of awesomeness I get before it craps out?


...Exactamundo...



> I just want to make some sense of this before I waste any more time chasing my tail.


Think about it ---- how is it that you can adjust it, then it can run, crap out on you, and when you pull the valve cover(s) again you find that it's out of adjustment? Unless your pushrods are shrinking (you didn't get them wet did you? ) or your rocker studs are swelling .... what else could be making you have to adjust and re-adjust repeatedly? 

Bear


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## Seventh (Apr 6, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> Think about it ---- how is it that you can adjust it, then it can run, crap out on you, and when you pull the valve cover(s) again you find that it's out of adjustment? Unless your pushrods are shrinking (you didn't get them wet did you? ) or your rocker studs are swelling .... what else could be making you have to adjust and re-adjust repeatedly?
> 
> Bear


Because I couldn't get over my oil pressure gauge's seizures, thought for sure it had to do with oil supply, I've never seen a gauge dance so wildly from just one dead hole. It makes sense though, that was likely the effect and not the cause. :willy: And all the oiling problems I kept hearing about didn't help haha. After my timing components come in and it's put back together I'm gonna try new nuts there and see if it works, or do you suppose I should just get all new rockers and everything?


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## Seventh (Apr 6, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> Yep, that's the way you do it === on a Chevy. But this ain't a Chevy.  Once in a blue moon you can get away with that procedure on a Pontiac, if the ball nuts are new, have a fresh crimp, and are nice and tight on the stud, and the planets align just so...
> 
> If you can deal with the oil spray, re-set them then start it with the valve covers off and watch the one(s) that don't stay adjusted. I'll bet you a nickle against the hole of a rolling do-nut you'll be able to watch it spin itself right off.
> 
> Bear


You're right though, all Chebbys and Fords until now :lol:


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Seventh said:


> After my timing components come in and it's put back together I'm gonna try new nuts there and see if it works, or do you suppose I should just get all new rockers and everything?


It depends on what your plans for the motor are. If you're going to keep it more or less stock, then before spending any money on parts I'd try it as it is, just torque those nuts down to 20 ft lbs and see what happens. If they still won't "stay", then since you're going to have to buy parts anyway I'd just skip ahead and swap out the studs for the bigger ones and put on poly locks. That'll keep them where you put them, and also prepare you for "down the road" if you decide to get more aggressive on the cam.

Bear


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## Seventh (Apr 6, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> It depends on what your plans for the motor are. If you're going to keep it more or less stock, then before spending any money on parts I'd try it as it is, just torque those nuts down to 20 ft lbs and see what happens. If they still won't "stay", then since you're going to have to buy parts anyway I'd just skip ahead and swap out the studs for the bigger ones and put on poly locks. That'll keep them where you put them, and also prepare you for "down the road" if you decide to get more aggressive on the cam.
> 
> Bear


Yeah no real plans as of now, car runs way too good with it's current setup to justify changing it too much. I definitely appreciate the help though! I'll probably get this thing back together this weekend or early next week after I get my new timing set, then I'll report back. If it really is just those nuts I'm gonna be happy and mad all at once :lol:


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## Seventh (Apr 6, 2011)

I know it's been a long time but I wanted to report back on the final outcome. 

I did get it all back together and again tried everything under the sun to get the valve lash adjusted properly, and all the same symptoms persisted. 

I ended up getting pretty frustrated and yanked the heads back off, disassembled them and found some of the exhaust valve stems galled up pretty badly. I brought it all back to my machine shop buddy and he reworked them for me again, (for free this time) I reassembled everything and voila, everything's fine now! :cool

I also discovered during the process, (thanks to my dad's keen eye) that the car actually has a 428 motor, and I forgot what my dad said about the casting numbers, but he said they're the desireable big valve heads. I guess that all explains why it runs so good. 

Unfortunately I'm probably going to end up selling the car this summer. As much as I don't want to, but it still ranks #4 on my list of project cars, ranked in order of priority, (and thus the delay for the fix) and space is becoming an issue. Gonna clean it up as best as possible, get it driving nice and start going to some local shows, etc. It's worthy of further resto. 

Anyway, I wanted to report back on the fix and thank you all again for helping me with the problem!


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