# Lucas Oil?



## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

Friend suggested I put lucas in with my oil. Read over the bottle, all the usual miracle oil claims, but I'm curious who on this board has used it. The stuff is incredibly thick...almost like caramel. Doesn't seem like the kind of thing you'd want in an engine. thoughts?


----------



## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

I am using 20W50 Valvoline racing oil with high zinc in it along with Bars Leak rear main seal conditioner. Back in the day... STP oil additive was used religiously by many and it was quite thick. I never used Lucas but I assume its like STP? If it is I wouldn't think it would hurt.


----------



## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Lucas is good for older cars with larger tolerences and/or wear.

But I wouldn't recommend it for LSx engines or newer engines that recommend light oil.


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

I change oil in 1 of the NAPA trucks here in town and they have been putting in LUCAS every change sense new. The truck has over 400,000 miles on it now with nothing but normal service. :cheers
I've also used their power steering stop leak/conditioner with awesome results. Gets rid of that 'morning sickness' and stickiness found in some racks when it gets cold outside.


----------



## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

400k 

wow, dodge, chevy, ford, toyota? The factory should know about that kind of milestone out of a pickup.


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

It's an S10.


----------



## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Lucas oil stabilizer is a great product and I used it for many years in my Pete until the cost became to expensive. It only takes a small amount for 5 quarts of oil and be sure to add it while the engine is warm and running.


----------



## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

just did the oil with castrol high mileage (love the extra additives BP throws in there) and a bottle of lucas. she seems to run just fine despite the gluelike nature of the stuff.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

As long as you add a ZDDP additive you'll be fine. Lucas is not a ZDDP replacement, to my knowledge.


----------



## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

my understanding is the high mileage oil should handle that. the zinc additive is to help the valve seats, correct? Castrol high mileage is loaded with additives for wear resistance and such, which (i assume) would be effective on the valve seats. may be wrong on that front though.

Other side of that is i've struck out finding ZDDP here in town...neither o'reiley or autozone had it, haven't tried pep boys yet, but they never seem to have what i want.


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

The ZDDP is for the lifter to cam contact area. I thought it was just needed for break-in.
The valve seat concern was with the lead being removed from the gas. Hardened valve seats would take care of that and if the heads have been rebuilt in the past 20yrs they should have been upgraded already.


----------



## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

ah, my mistake...I'll look a bit harder. I assume without it the lifters wear down much faster? Also, what's the proper spacing for the exhaust and intake and how often should I be checking that?


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Spaceing? You meen valve lash adjustment?


----------



## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

yes...last valve job i did was on my motorcycle, haven't yet had to do the car...she runs so nice


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Zero Lash. you have hydraulic lifters. ZDDP is needed in all cars and trucks with flat tappet camshafts, at all times. Cars like yours. The high load in a small area on the old flat tappet cams neccessitates this. Think of a high heel shoe walking on a wet lawn versus a snow shoe. You get the picture. ZDDP is in Shell Rotella diesel spec oil (what I use) and Delo diesel spec oil. You can also google ZDDP PLUS and order it on-line to add to your oil. Do not run without it, or you WILL be wearing out cams and lifters.


----------



## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

Rukee said:


> The ZDDP is for the lifter to cam contact area. I thought it was just needed for break-in.
> The valve seat concern was with the lead being removed from the gas. Hardened valve seats would take care of that and if the heads have been rebuilt in the past 20yrs they should have been upgraded already.


i agree, its only needed for break-in but im sure it doesnt hurt anything to keep running it.:cheers


----------



## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

66tempestGT said:


> i agree, its only needed for break-in but im sure it doesnt hurt anything to keep running it.:cheers


Only if the oil has sufficient zink to prevent metal to metal gall. If you are using a garden variety oil, the ZDDP is a must. There are very few automotive oils with sufficient zinc anymore.


----------



## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

looks like i'll be checking out pep boys after all :shutme


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Again, if you use ZDDP just for break in and discontinue its use during regular operation after the break in, you are headed for mechanical failure. You need ZDDP in your engine at all times it is running.


----------



## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

geeteeohguy said:


> Zero Lash. you have hydraulic lifters. ZDDP is needed in all cars and trucks with flat tappet camshafts, at all times. Cars like yours. The high load in a small area on the old flat tappet cams neccessitates this. Think of a high heel shoe walking on a wet lawn versus a snow shoe. You get the picture. ZDDP is in Shell Rotella diesel spec oil (what I use) and Delo diesel spec oil. You can also google ZDDP PLUS and order it on-line to add to your oil. Do not run without it, or you WILL be wearing out cams and lifters.


revisiting this...isn't there a few thousandths gap between the rocker and the valve itself when the valve is closed. that's what i was talking about, although I had a rough time explaining what i meant. 

back to ZDDP, i'm having a difficult time understanding the benefits. I get your stiletto/lawn comparison, but any zinc additive will be softer than both the cam and the tappets, so all it would really do is provide a liquid barrier between the two. unless it somehow annealed to the tappet during operation, you're just thickening the liquid boundry layer, not preventing mechanical deformation. even if pure zinc were to bond with the tappet, it's a very soft metal and would deform almost instantly under the type of stress we're talking about. 

Just playing devil's advocate, and I don't disagree that ZDDP probably does save engines...i'm just curious as to the details of "how".


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

xcmac26 said:


> revisiting this...isn't there a few thousandths gap between the rocker and the valve itself when the valve is closed. that's what i was talking about, although I had a rough time explaining what i meant.


No, the lifters are hydraulic, not solid. You would adjust a solid lifter cam with a feeler gauge, not a hydraulic lifter cam. Roll the engine over till the cyl is on TDC, back the rocker nut off till you can freely spin the push rod in the fingers, tighten the rocker nut till the push rod just stops turning, then tighten an additional 1/2 turn. Repeat for the other valve in that cyl. The lifter has a total of 1 full turn adjustment, so 1/2 turn will put it right in the middle. Right after adjusting the lifter may bleed off and you may think the pushrod is loose again and want to readjust it, but don't! Once set up, you should be able to run for years without readjusting.


----------



## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

xcmac26 said:


> revisiting this...isn't there a few thousandths gap between the rocker and the valve itself when the valve is closed. that's what i was talking about, although I had a rough time explaining what i meant.
> 
> back to ZDDP, i'm having a difficult time understanding the benefits. I get your stiletto/lawn comparison, but any zinc additive will be softer than both the cam and the tappets, so all it would really do is provide a liquid barrier between the two. unless it somehow annealed to the tappet during operation, you're just thickening the liquid boundry layer, not preventing mechanical deformation. even if pure zinc were to bond with the tappet, it's a very soft metal and would deform almost instantly under the type of stress we're talking about.
> 
> Just playing devil's advocate, and I don't disagree that ZDDP probably does save engines...i'm just curious as to the details of "how".


With zero lash hydraulics there is NO clearance anywhere in the valve train. That is only with solid lifters, like lawn mower and older motorcycle engines... With hydraulics the valve train is actually under a preload to keep the internal plunger centered in the lifter body.

Providing a cushion and film to prevent metal to metal galling is EXACTLY what the zinc is for. You've got the right idea but without the zinc, the lifter base rides on the cam lobe instead of the zinc and WILL cause premature wear. Go to any major cam manufacturer website to read about all the cam failures in the past few years because of the metals being removed from automotive oil.


----------



## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

I thought on pontiac heads, at least for '68 with hydraulic lifters, the rockers are torqued to 20lb ft, virtually eliminating adjustment?


----------



## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

Too Many Projects said:


> Providing a cushion and film to prevent metal to metal galling is EXACTLY what the zinc is for. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> but...i'm discussing contact stress, not friction. the zinc would be displaced at each cycle unless it bonds to the tappet. to me, it seems like black magic. Might work, but i'd like to know how since the contact stress wouldn't change regardless of additives.
> ...


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

68greengoat said:


> I thought on pontiac heads, at least for '68 with hydraulic lifters, the rockers are torqued to 20lb ft, virtually eliminating adjustment?


Due to the fact that once they are used the factory rocker nuts are not consistent with the torque they hold, or should I say the torque required to turn them so torquing is unreliable. Because of that I would never recommending doing it that way. Adjusting them as above will insure you are putting that lifter exactly in it's center of adjustment.

You can also get some clips that attach to the top of the rocker arm that prevent the oil from flying all over allowing you to adjust the rockers while the car is running. Loosen each rocker till it clatters, tighten till it just stops, then tighten an additional 1/2 turn. Oil still gets all over though.


----------



## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

Rukee said:


> Due to the fact that once they are used the factory rocker nuts are not consistent with the torque they hold, or should I say the torque required to turn them so torquing is unreliable. Because of that I would never recommending doing it that way. Adjusting them as above will insure you are putting that lifter exactly in it's center of adjustment.
> 
> You can also get some clips that attach to the top of the rocker arm that prevent the oil from flying all over allowing you to adjust the rockers while the car is running. Loosen each rocker till it clatters, tighten till it just stops, then tighten an additional 1/2 turn. Oil still gets all over though.


Thanks for clarifying. I think the second method was common "back in the day". When I bought my car, of the truck load of extra "stuff" that came with it was a valve cover that had a slot cut out to adjust the rockers while it was running, thus, keeping most of the oil from splashing out I assume... Never used it, don't know if it works...

Sorry for the hi-jack, Steve....


----------



## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

xcmac26 said:


> Too Many Projects said:
> 
> 
> > Providing a cushion and film to prevent metal to metal galling is EXACTLY what the zinc is for. QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

xcmac26 said:


> Friend suggested I put lucas in with my oil. Read over the bottle, all the usual miracle oil claims, but I'm curious who on this board has used it. The stuff is incredibly thick...almost like caramel. Doesn't seem like the kind of thing you'd want in an engine. thoughts?


Lucas Oil Stabilizer is a good product . Just remember that if you run Synthetic oil in your motor, make sure you use Synthetic Stabilizer. Its good to use if you go extended periods of time with out an oil change and it does a great job of preventing problems from dry starts. I used it in my old pick up and it went 250,000 miles before I sold it. It did not burn oil or use up more then 1/2 quart of oil at oil changes between 3-5000 miles. Motor was never touched for any mechanical problems. I also use it in my motorcycles and been doing this for years. Also used it in my 05 GTO a few times. Right now I am just using 5W30 Castrol Edge


----------



## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

GTO JUDGE said:


> I am using 20W50 Valvoline racing oil with high zinc in it along with Bars Leak rear main seal conditioner. Back in the day... STP oil additive was used religiously by many and it was quite thick. I never used Lucas but I assume its like STP? If it is I wouldn't think it would hurt.


Sorry for hijacking this tread, but seeing that we are on the subject of oil I am curious about oil grades . I have been using 5W30 since new. Tried Mobile One, Royal Purple, Lucas and right now I am using Castrol Edge. If I switch oil grades and went to 10W30 or 10W40 would this be OK. 
I really don't drive my car hard but with the addition of forced induction I thought that a heavier grade would offer more protection


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

xcmac26, please do as Too Many Projects said and google ZDDP and read all about it. No mystery at all. You ARE overanalyzing the bejesus out of this!!! And listen to Rukee on the valve lash. Adjust the valves like he says, and pur in a can of ZDDP Plus. Then you'll be ok.


----------



## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

I'm an engineer...i'm paid to over analyze. :lol:

it just seems that one type of fluid boundry layer (oil) wouldn't change with a different layer (ZDDP additive) if the quantities were small. again...jello on the lawn. If the benefit is reduced friction, then I'll digress, but from the shoe/lawn statement, I assumed the problem was contact stress.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The problem is indeed contact stress. High load on a small area. That's why later style set-ups with bucket-shim valves and roller set ups don't need the ZDDP. Bigger surface area, less concentrated load. The ZDDP is mixed in with the oil, and becomes part of the boundary layer between the small, highly loaded tappet and the small, sharp cam lobe. The higher lift the cam, and the more robust the valve springs, the greater the issue. Again, read up on it, it's pretty interesting, especially if you're an engineer!


----------



## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

my daily driver has a 327 in it with flat tappet hydralic. been running advance auto parts brand 10w30 for years. sometimes i catch it on sale for .99 a quart. living on borrowed time.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

If you want to run cheap and protected, buy the Rotella T or Delo in bulk. I've been using the Rotella for a while, with a ZDDP additive, but I'm thinking of changing to Brad Penn oil for the heck of it. I still have some straight 30 and 20/50 from the late 1990's that has all the ZDDP in it. But, I'm using 10/30 or 15/40 these days....


----------



## 646904GTO (Feb 10, 2008)

I have been using Mobil one in my older gto's for a while now because I bought a lifetime supply with coupons at Costco. So I don't have to rely on any additives for the oil...But since I just installed the monster FI 406 in the '64 I had a couple of gallons of Delo 400 30 wt so I used it as starting oil with the plan to change it to Mobil one after a while...but...I like the performance of it in the engine so much I think I'll just run it. I have a really big cam but it is a roller so I don't need ZDDP but man it runs well with that Delo.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I was using full synthetic in my GTO's until I found out it offered no ZDDP type of protection. I still use it in my later 4Runner. Mobile one is perhaps the best quality oil, but it doesn't have the anti-wear ZDDP us flat tappet guys need. You're right, that Delo is good stuff. If you think that it has to handle 16:1 diesel stresses, it has to be good. Those big rigs go several hundered thousand miles between overhauls.


----------



## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

Last question:

Is ZDDP a non-newtonian fluid? hopefully someone can answer yes or no.

I've been reading up on all the comments about it and how it saves your engine, but there's no "science" behind it. I just gotta know! non-newtonian fluidics is the the only possible explanation for how it could work. apply stress to the fluid and it compresses into a temporary near-solid. cornstarch and water will do the same thing if you want to play around with safe chemistry in the kitchen. or, for a cleaner explanation... click this 




in any case, can someone answer my question...yes or no?


----------



## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

looks like the same thing too me!


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Fluid is not compressable. Not To my knowledge. It must have air in it or gas in it to be so. Pure fluid, be it water, brake fluid, engine oil, is not compressable at all. That's how your car's brakes work. Fluids can be mixed, and mixed with solids (paints, for example, or motor oil with zinc an phosphorus). I myself am NOT an engineer. Just a guy who's done a small amount of research, enough research to buy into the ZDDP thing. Have fun!


----------



## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

gee,

newtonian fluids like oil, water, soda pop and your own spit are all incompressible. non-newtonian fluids, when placed under impact stress essentially _congeal_ into a near solid. that's the reason those guys could run across the pool. it's weird science but fun if you play with it.

my guess is ZDDP is non-newtonian. it's the only explanation.


----------



## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

This thread is making my head hurt!!! :willy: :lol: :cheers :seeya


----------



## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

just go play with water and corn starch...it'll all make sense and it's pretty fun too. I've always wanted to shoot a bottle full of it with my .22 and see what happens, but don't feel like cleaning up the mess after the plastic gets punctured.

your head hurts after 1 thread, imagine how i felt after graduation :shutme


----------



## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

i bet you work for the government.


----------



## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

nah, the gubmint can't afford me


----------

