# Clone a Lemans to a GTO



## My6869gto (Sep 10, 2013)

So what would you do?

I have a 1969 Pontiac GTO, 4 speed 400, 39,512 original mile car. Hideaway headlights. Car runs and shifts like a dream but it all ends there. It was a CT car it's whole life so the underbody is shot along with everything else. It unfortunately sat out in a field under a tree for 16 years. All body panels, fenders, hood, top and floor boards are rotted out. Every time you open and close any door rust chunks fall down..

So I recently acquired a 1969 Pontiac Lemans convertible. Eventually I'd like to put the engine, trans and rear end from the 69 GTO along with the endura bumper, hood and hideaways into the Lemans.

Once I get to this point do I keep the Lemans badges on it or do I fully clone it over to GTO emblems. Any ideas?

I was quoted about 30K in body work/painting for the 69 goat. Something I just don't have and can't see spending. It was given to me from a reliable source since the same guy did up my 68 GTO with excellent results.

Thanks,

Scott

atriot:


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I would put the GTO drivetrain stuff in the LeMans and leave the car a LeMans. LeMans and Tempest models are rare and getting rarer. Plus, I've always liked sleepers.Fake GTO's are a dime a dozen. I'd probably part out the GTO to help finance the project. Just my opinion...........


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

I agree, keep it a LeMans, although I agree too with using the drive train from the '69. As for the endura bumper, if you like it use it, it is your car.


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## rexs73gto (Nov 25, 2012)

If you clone it to a GTO your going to need a vin tag to make it correct for a GTO vert. But if you just leave it as a Lemans you'll be way ahead because you won't have everyone & there brother calling you out for cloning it to a GTO. The Lemans is a great car. Use the GTO bumper as it looks good on both GTO & a Lemans. This way you only have to tell all that the bumper came from a GTO & that you like the rubber bumper better then the chrome one. Put all the good stuff in the Lemans ,,,, But keep all the lemans parts just in case you ever sell it & the new owner will want to put it back to a Lemans complete. You didn't say if you have the GTO hood with the car??? I'd put that on if you have it as the hood is a great add on for any car.


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## Ace (Mar 9, 2014)

Even though GTO "tribute" cars based on a Lemans are plentiful, I'd still do the Lemans to GTO transformation. If you're already using the GTO hood, hideaways and nose, what's a few badges more or less? Although you may end up with more parts from the Lemans being used isn't the whole point of swapping in the GTO drivetrain and other parts to save as much of the GTO as possible. Think of the Lemans as a donor car being used to prolong the life of the Goat. Just my two cents worth, its your car, do whatever makes you the happiest. When you close your eyes and imagine yourself banging through the gears on your favorite stretch of blacktop, is it in the Lemans or the GTO.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

I'd do the endura nose and hideaways, the rear spoiler is different for a convertible, and *leave it a Lemans*. GTO has different front valence, tail lights, and rear markers also. 

The tail lights will fit but you'll have a little body work involved swapping the rear marker lights as the hole in the sheet metal is different.


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## My6869gto (Sep 10, 2013)

Thanks for all the positive comments/suggestions. I'm still not 100% sure but I am leaning towards it have the GTO drivetrain but keeping it all lemans and it would be like your typical "sleeper" muscle car.

Considering I already have a true 1968 Goat having one as a Lemans with a upgraded drivetrain wouldn't be so bad after all. 

I really appreciate it, thank you!


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

ALKYGTO said:


> I'd do the endura nose and hideaways, the rear spoiler is different for a convertible, and *leave it a Lemans*. GTO has different front valence, tail lights, and rear markers also.
> 
> The tail lights will fit but you'll have a little body work involved swapping the rear marker lights as the hole in the sheet metal is different.


Hey Alky, what are the differences in the rear markers and front valance between LeMans and GTO?


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## jbrenner (Apr 15, 2013)

Best answer is simple. It's your car, what do you want to do with it? I've cloned my '66 Tempest as a GTO. Only because that's what I wanted to do and like the most. If somebody wants to bad mouth me for it as being fake, or whatever, that's their problem. At the end of the day it's the same car with different badging, and it's mine. I find it odd that some out there like to be so critical, questioning a clone as if I had put a Honda motor in it or something. It's all Pontiac, should it truly matter that much? Just my two cents.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Tempest, LeMans, GTO...all cool cars. Build what you see in your mind and drive it like it was meant. Went through same thing when doing mine, even to the point of filling the original badge holes. I do get a lot of comments that they liked i kept it a Tempest, and the other half say "whats a Tempest?", but it's all GTO spec+ everywhere else. Besides, how could i cut out this space age rear end for a few little slots...:wink2:


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## jbrenner (Apr 15, 2013)

Couldn't agree more on that point, that rear end is a thing of beauty...did mine the exact same way. :thumbsup:


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## AZGrizFan (Apr 1, 2014)

mrvandermey said:


> Hey Alky, what are the differences in the rear markers and front valance between LeMans and GTO?


I don't know about the rear markers, but the front valance on the '69 Lemans is completely different than on the GTO. The signal lights on the GTO are completely embedded in the valance, while on the Lemans they sit on top of the valance. See the two photos attached for the difference...they are not interchangeable.

The first car is mine (a dreaded GTO "Tribute", lol)...actually was LOOKING for a Lemans when I bought this a couple months ago, but as someone said earlier in this thread, finding an unmolested Lemans is becoming more and more difficult.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

On a '69 Lemans the rear markers are the "arrowhead" same as the 68 Lemans and GTO (no difference in marker lights on the '68's) while the 69 GTO has the GTO crest as a rear marker. Some aftermarket rear quarters actually come with no cutout in them so they can be used on either year/model. 

AZGrizfan: excellent photos illustrating the difference in front valences. A further distinction in the GTO model was that the hideaway optioned cars had lower grills in the front valence and the fixed headlight models had only chrome trim around the openings. The Judge in your photo has the hideaways but appears to be missing the grills. If you'll notice the photo of my car below has been photo shopped incorrectly. When the license plate was removed the lower grill was made into one long piece but you can clearly see it has the correct grills in place.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

I love the rarity of the LeMans style as well. I went to several shows last year including one put on by the RI Pontiac club, and did not see another 70-72 LeMans. There were plenty of GTO's at most of the events. 

I always suspected that one of major reasons people clone these cars is due to parts availability. There are way more parts out there for the GTO than for the LeMans. I had a broken marker light on mine and it took me over a year to find a replacement. I got lucky finding an NOS part. It was still in the Delco box that looked like it had been sitting on a shelf for 100 years.


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## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

So just to clarify, if you used all the interchangeable steel from the LeMans to RESTORE the GTO, it's a fake? A clone? A tribute? To me it's more Pontiac that something laiden with a bunch of Asian sheet metal. All should ask themselves this, that beyond the subtle (and quite doable) details, what makes the car a GTO? You have a drivetrian so that's covered, you have the trim tag and all that's called out on it (do you?) so that's covered, titles for both and proper ID on stuff, and also seem to have the will to resurrect a genuine super car that's been kicked aside for over a decade. It's no small job to restore the GTO using a solid donor car, but it's possible and perhaps finacially and realistically feasible. 

So again, where does the line end at "Restoration" and begin at "Tribute"? If I found a gennie 428 CJ Mach rotted to the ground for dirt nuthin money and another sports roof Mustang from a dry western state, you bet your tri-power I'm gonna use solid Henry steel vs (again) thousands of dollars worth of Asian sheet metal. Is that a clone? My friend put a Malibu roof on his SS 454 Chevelle after a fire. Was it no longer a "real" car?


Quick edit: This reply is meant to be a serious discussion on the topic and in no way is meant to be flame or drama, and no offense to anyone else reading this.


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

A tribute car will look like a real GTO but the cowl tag and paper documentation will tell you its a non GTO. If you start changing cowl tags and other info to make the car something its not, then its a fake and also against the law to do so.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

666bbl said:


> So just to clarify, if you used all the interchangeable steel from the LeMans to RESTORE the GTO, it's a fake? A clone? A tribute? To me it's more Pontiac that something laiden with a bunch of Asian sheet metal. All should ask themselves this, that beyond the subtle (and quite doable) details, what makes the car a GTO? You have a drivetrian so that's covered, you have the trim tag and all that's called out on it (do you?) so that's covered, titles for both and proper ID on stuff, and also seem to have the will to resurrect a genuine super car that's been kicked aside for over a decade. It's no small job to restore the GTO using a solid donor car, but it's possible and perhaps finacially and realistically feasible.
> 
> So again, where does the line end at "Restoration" and begin at "Tribute"? If I found a gennie 428 CJ Mach rotted to the ground for dirt nuthin money and another sports roof Mustang from a dry western state, you bet your tri-power I'm gonna use solid Henry steel vs (again) thousands of dollars worth of Asian sheet metal. Is that a clone? My friend put a Malibu roof on his SS 454 Chevelle after a fire. Was it no longer a "real" car?
> 
> ...


If "real" vintage Muscle wasn't worth so much $$$$ it wouldn't be such a big deal. But unfortunately there are some out there that would "clone" a rare car and then ask the same amount of money that the "real" car is worth. 



It's like seeing a guy with a stack of Mona Lisa paintings at the flea market asking a million dollars apiece.


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## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

The point might be missed, so lets try to shed some light on it. Which physical attribute(s) in real steel makes the car what it is? Is it the firewall? Instrument panel (in whole or part)? The paper? The tags alone? Back in their day it was a standard procedure to "clip" a valuable car if it was hit too hard to simply "bump n paint". Are all of those that have done now fakes? Unlawful? 

Try to put yourself in this picture...your rich and eccentric uncle Max left you his pride and joy, a 70 Ram Air IV Trans Am. Sadly his eccentricities lead to the car sitting on a dirt floor open shed and now that TA is rotted from the subframe to rear valance, the back window's damn near ready to fall out from the rust below, the engine, trans, and many of the other things that made it the monster it was are still there along with the interior and even the build sheet. Being a big fan of 2nd gen Poncho F bodies you also happen to have a never-been-rusted 350 Firebird. It's even white, but it's a 350 2bbl. What do you do? Kiss a rare bird good bye or RESTORE the RA IV TA to it's former glory? How would you suggest the restoration take place? Should you cut up the solid car and try your level best to duplicate the OEM assembly process? Do you use the shell of the plain jane car? You'd have everything you need to restore the TA, but again, at what point does restoration begin or end? "Yes, this was weird uncle Max's RA IV car." "But I thought it was rotted to the ground?" "It was, I restored to brand new and even the OEM assembly process is quite visible. I was lucky that I had a solid 1970 shell to restore this car." "So it's a clone?" "No, it's Max's RA IV, and trust me, it was no small feat to make it new again." "It looks perfect. I can't even tell where you welded anything or even any signs of typical body work." "Exactly, and you can rest assured my RESTORATION is more GENUINE PONTIAC than most." 

Does that make you a liar, a crook, a lawless chop shop operator? Or does it make you smart enough to use as much EXISTING OEM SHEET METAL as necessary to breathe new life into the car? In the really big dollar sandbox of Packards and Dueseys and cars many of you may never had heard of, there's a fine line between creating a car that never existed and restoring an historically significant artifact. A Packard example: drop an 8cyl roadster body on a 12 chassis, body swap. Build from scratch, re-body. Use an 8cyl roadster body to restore and existing 12cyl roadster, restoration. As a Duesy, create from scratch with all specs and prints in hand a Walker LeGrand Torpedo Phaeton body and fit it to the appropriate chassis. Do it well so it looks and acts just like the real thing, but why? It's now a re-body or "New Coachwork". There's only 2 of the real thing ever built, both accounted for, and neither owner has any interest in selling but you gotta have one. It might cost you $750K to do it too, but it's always worth that on the market or maybe a bit more. Still, it's well below the nearly $3,000,000 it would take to get a real one IF one of the 2 guys decides to part with it. I could create a 71 HEMI Cuda convertible to absolute perfection and drive and show the car with pride. Might cost me $75K, a 1000 or more hrs. It drives, handles, smells, even sucks fuel like the real thing and I'm millions ahead of the game because I don't value PAPER like the 7 others that have one do, and in fact my insurance is cheaper too and I drive it with no worries. Not a bad place to be either because the going rate for such can approach or go over $100K. 

Coming back home to the Goat Farm, why can't I keep my PONTIAC all PONTIAC throughout the course of my restoration? Even if I documented every process, it's still a fake? It's an unlawful motor vehicle? These are tough things to sort through when such items are desired. I agree that if you lie about your restoration process that's bordering on, or in the case of NO CAR TO START WITH, unlawful. What say you, and again this isn't an argument. Imagine this is going on as we sit on a milk crate with a cup of coffee talkin in the shop on the subject. I'll add that I have over 40yrs in the restoration industry, and the majority of those years are in that big dollar sandbox of Packards and such. And also, thanks in advance for the discussion.


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

This is the reason why original unrestored cars or "survivor cars" are worth huge, huge, huge money. Your 70 Ram Air IV Trans Am did not survive. It's beyond the grave. I think if you documented the car with pictures of what I think it would look like as you found your RAIV car, the car would not be worth huge money because of what little was left from the original car. Most people would have to ask how many parts from other cars and foreign reproduction parts that are not even reproduced correctly are on this car.

In the end you will have a very nice looking car from your restoration that no one will be able verify the origins of down the road after you pass on and the car has lost all of its documents that you provided with the car.


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

Also thing about this, you found a 70 RAIV Trans Am car, or did you? Let's put you 50 years later finding this same car. Is it really the real deal or was it a restored clone that is just being found all rotten up again and your about to clone a clone.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

I think there is quite a bit of confusion here. A clone is when you take one car and change it into something it is not. In this case, you take a Lemans and put all of the GTO parts on the car. You swap the drive train and all body parts to make the car look like a GTO. The VIN code will ID the car as a LeMans making it worth significantly less than a car that came off the assembly line that was born a GTO. If you take body panels off of a LeMans and put them on a real GTO, you still have a GTO, one that has been restored.

If you swap over the VIN tags from a GTO onto a LeMans to try and cover up that the car was not born as a GTO, that is a forgery and is illegal.

So to answer your question, if you used a rust free shell of one car and transplanted parts from another, the car is indeed a clone. That being said, your Ram Air IV clone may be worth more than the 350 2bl original car, but less than a real Ram Air IV.

I hope this helps.


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## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

It seems to me that things have certainly skewed beyond rational labors and efforts over the last few decades. Sort of like when you order a "body in white" nowadays you get a new body...painted white!!! A true Body In White is a bare "pickled" body with NOTHING on it. Let me go another step here. I take the cowl and IP from my RA IV and graft the 'A' pillars and the floors to it. I save all of my glass and all the mechanicals, proceed with my restoration. Still a clone or did I "clip" the car? To me, fully documented, paper and all, restored to perfection and indeed beyond the quality and detail of the average restored car these days, I win. I was able to keep factory aperture dimensions to a tee, my spot welds are OEM, done by good ol "Herman" at the Pontiac assembly plant. Nothing looks or is out of place and the restoration is truly undetectable. I don't now and perhaps never will see a significant difference from the guy who buys all the repop slop and suffers through trying to make it ALL GM again. I'd choose a smarter and MORE ACCURATE approach to my end result. So what makes "the car" really "the car"? 

I'll throw another one out there. Let's make it a 69 L-88 Vette. Perhaps the poor soul didn't realize he had a genuine Cobra killer under foot and he slammed it ass end 1st into a bridge abutment and never could bring himself to fix it. Now I have it. I "clip" the body again, even section the rear of the frame and save the differential and all the other HD hardware. Is my L-88 still an L-88? I have all the paper, even the bill of sale. I repaired and restored it again to perfect OEM detail. What if I had to use a whole body? Would the frame be enough? Would all my docs and recording of the process prove it real or 'Memorex'? If I had a knot of cash fat enough for either of my sample cars, the L-88 or the RA IV, and it was divulged to me the complete A to Z process, I'm taking the car that was FAITHFULLY brought back to life vs a car built in a shop, even from used body parts. Maybe my years in the biz lays more value on structural integrity. Maybe having worked in the plants in my early years exposed me to things I now notice decades later. 

To me, a tribute car is the same as my CCCA "New Coachwork". A car created that never was. My T/A and L-88 examples are real. They did exist and exist again. I admit this line is razor sharp so we're smart not to move along that line too quickly. I clipped a 68 GTX for a client. It was a 1 of 3 HEMI convertible. He had the paper, the car, the engine and trans, pretty much all of it, but the worst happened. While being saved in a scrap yard one of the yard hands dropped a car on the back of it. Instant Mopar pancake with rear axle dope syrup! Right down to the reinforcements and all the under body that made it a HEMI it was restored using a Satellite convertible rear body. We took it from the 1st floor weld back and slid that back end right in there like it never happened. What did he have? A restored 68 GTX HEMI convertible. It was a save, not a clone or tribute. It's more MOPAR than most as well, even down to the incredible number of 1968 spot welds (over done like you wouldn't believe, 69s much less by the dozens!).


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

666bbl, I always enjoy reading your posts. They are informative and objective. There are no black and white answers here....when is a hammer not original? I replaced the handle twice and the head once.....still the same hammer I got from Mac Tools? Another one: several vintage Ferrari's share the same VIN number due to their great value and being 'clipped'. There are a couple of '62-'63 Lusso's and a couple of GTO's that were clipped back in the '60's-'70's (14-16k cars at that time, 2 million dollars each today). Which one is the real one? the one that got back halved after the wreck, or the back half that was pulled, straightened, and repaired and married to a new engine and front clip? Both have the same VIN, and both are '63 GTO's. My stand at clone cars (a Tempest made to represent a GTO, or a Torino made into a 429 SCJ, is that they are fakes, and meant to deceive. If you want performance, put the GTO stuff in the car and leave it alone cosmetically.....when you change the emblems, etc., you are not changing the performance of the car, only the perception of what it is. My .02....


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## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

As a professional I realize the limits of restoration and authenticity. My clients have an enviable show record which reflect that discipline and dedication. If I were one of many collector car "whores" I probably wouldn't have the stones to even have this discussion. As a certified and licensed tech/shop owner I have a solid grip on the legalities too. I get the Ferarri example crystal clear. If the race shops did that back in the day they'd have to rework their car list and show what was done to keep em on the race track. A savvy collector would know the whos and whats at that point to. If Dandy Dan's Cave n Pave shop did it on the sly, not so much. 

I hide nothing when I do my work, buy, sell or broker anything. It's the best way to go. You never look over your shoulder or avoid anyone, you sleep well, you have lots of friends and the respect of your colleagues. None of us get there overnight. Everyone wants the virgin original with low miles and a story to make the most hard-ass collector swoon. Then reality punches you with jabs like Ali in his prime as the cost to restore a like artifact soars in detail upon detail and the time required to remain FAITHFUL to the job. If you document what you did and why there should be no hesitation from the judge on down to the day you sell if that day ever came. If you can raise your right hand to what you did and show it, no problems. You think these ideas are tough? Restore a Model A Ford for high point judging and try for a "Henry Award"! From my research they seem to be a tad worse than Corvette guys! I won't even bring up Early Ford V8 stuff... 


And yes, I'm enjoying this topic and I'm happy to share in everyone's outlooks.


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## silversport (Mar 23, 2007)

good stuff here...thanks guys for your contributions...

Bill


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## Indecision (Oct 24, 2010)

I think we are getting in to the "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" argument. 

GTO clone, tribute, Le Mans or Tempest.... At the end of the day, who gives a shit? They all look like sex. As long as it's not a re-vinned Tempest/Le Mans falsely for sale as a true GTO anyway.

A lemans with a GTO drivetrain isn't even a sleeper... it's still slow, just less slow than a normal Le Mans. 

Build the car for what you want and never look back if you plan to keep it or keep it as stock as possible if you want to maintain the value... can't lose either way.


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## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

I don't want this to become a dead horse whipping, but I still ask where the car itself begins or ends. Is it a percentage of original parts? If I had a full frame (with VIN), the original engine (again with VIN), the title, invoice, window sticker, even the data tags, but the car burned. Roof, 1/4 panels, doors, all not repairable but still identifiable. What do I have? Is it a funeral? Is it worth saving? What if it was a 1 of 4 (insert any car you can imagine) and worth 50% more than the norm? What if I got a rust free shell and rebuilt my car back to it's former glory? That is a genuine and serious technical question. If you were in the market for such and came upon this documented save, would you cough lightly and walk away or be ready to buy the car in it's now new and fresh condition with no repairs to the OEM sheet metal used, but rather a body built buy the OEM in question and everything else applied? 

I ask because the skills to such exist in the industry now. Internet, organized salvage, rosters of significant cars, all in our modern industry of restoration and collector cars. Where does it fit in when they become modified almost to the point of being a mere shadow of what it once was? Such things do happen and many owners realize no loss of value or possible notoriety for it. I also don't want anyone to simply agree, or agree to disagree. It's a worthy subject that we can thank "silversport" for bringing up. Most forums just end with "...do what you want, it's your car.", or some will instantly close such a topic. I'd say we're fortunate in that regard.


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

You have an excellent question, where does the car begin and end? No one knows. I think in the future you will see the value of restored muscle cars drop big time because no one knows. Keeping the unmolested cars at the top with Gold. I could even see the local DMVs getting involved and say you can restore your own muscle car but we will not transfer the title to anyone else because we dont know either.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Here's more gas on the fire: I read an article where a man who owned a '70 Hemi Cuda ragtop, valued at the time at about 3 million bucks, lent it to a journalist for a 5 day road trip across the southwest. The Journalist said 'what if I total it?" The owner replied: "Impossible. Even if you wadded it up into a ball, it could be repaired for MUCH less than the insured value of 3.5 million. So go enjoy the car." With the availability of pretty much EVERYTHING for musclecars, very easy to 'bring back' a 3 million dollar Hemi ragtop. Too bad I can't say the same for the undervalued REAL classics, like the Duesenbergs, Stutz's, Lincoln Zephyrs, and on and on.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

I too have enjoyed seeing how this thread has developed. I think everyone can agree that buying a restored "original" car is a gamble which makes cars that have never been restored worth significantly more. I watch the auctions when I have time and have noticed a recent trend. Cars that lack paperwork are worth much less than those with a documented history. I still don't think that the example of using all GM bodywork to bring back a totaled low production number car, makes that car worth as much as it would be had it never been wrecked. What i have found interesting in the value of old cars is in the Corvette market. The resto mods are often selling for more than undocumented originals. 

Apologies to My6869gto for getting way away from his original question, but still a very fascinating topic this grew into.


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## chui1980 (Jun 5, 2013)

Diversity is always interesting specially if the end result is worth looking. With that said I suggest keeping the lemans a lemans but build the best lemans around. It does not matter whether you put an LS engine, or small block or a big block. The end result will speak louder than what critics and collectors may say. I own a 69 Lemans Custom S which is the rearest of all since it was a 69 model only. That means 1 year of production period. Talk about rare. I am doing full protouring on it and people have asked me "why?"
I just said to them "is my car". With that said do your creation as you please but 
do it nice just dont put anything that pertains to GTO.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Anybody who asked me "why" I was customizing a '69 Custom S is not worth talking to. They don't get it, and never will. A '69 Custom S is a darn good looking car, _much _better looking than a '69 Chevelle or Torino, etc. Idiots.


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