# 2" drop spindle camber issue



## GhostTown (Jan 25, 2011)

I'm sorry for starting another suspension thread, but I'm trying to narrow in on a specific problem I'm having.

As some of you know, I had a 2" drop spindle/disc brake kit installed on my '65 Lemans, and have been having some problems since. I didn't install the kit, I had the guy who did my body work, a professional who works on classic cars (mostly GM) in his own personal shop for a living do the installation. He also happens to be my neighbor.

When he was done with the first round of body work, he installed the kit and I took the car back with intentions of driving it around a little bit and doing some light tinkering on my own, including finishing the spring/shock stuff on the rear to get the car leveled out. However, the first thing I noticed when he returned the car was it's obviously _way too low_ front end, and the excessive amount of negative camber of the front wheels. I mentioned this to him and he said that the front springs are sagging and really need to be replaced. This would correct the issue. This made perfect sense to me.

After doing some investigation on front springs, I decided to go with Moog springs intended for an AC car in hopes that it would lift the front end back up as well as correcting the funny camber issue. When the springs arrived, I had decided on having a different mechanic install them. I did this for a couple reasons. The first is that I just don't have enough experience to be removing and installing front springs myself. It's fairly dangerous, and I was afraid of not getting the springs installed correctly. The second is that I really wanted a different set of eyes to look at the car. I also had this new mechanic install all of the new bushings and ball joints that I had previously purchased.


Today I went to pick the car up from getting the new springs installed and the first thing I noticed was that the camber issue is still there. The front end was lifted A LOT, like 2 inches at least, but the negative camber did not change at all. The mechanic who worked on it mentioned that it is shimmed as far as it can go to correct it and that he thinks it's the new spindles that are the problem. I wasn't able to bring the car home today because he had not straightened out the toe-in problem yet. I'll have pics of its current condition tomorrow. 

This is the kit that the first guy bought using my money (I didn't buy it, as I don't trust ebay).

Chevy GM A Body Power Disc Brake Conversion Kit 2" Drop | eBay

It says it's fits 64 through 72 GM A-body cars. I have the receipt from the purchase, so I know for sure it's what he bought.

I've been screwed by car guys in the past who've said they knew what they were doing but didn't (I have a 1950 Chevy truck that's half built with an entire build story that reads like this post). Because of that, I'm pretty quick to think I've been screwed over again. I'm REALLY trying not to mess up this car with low quality crap, which is what I'm thinking this ebay stuff is. That said, it's also possible that it was installed incorrectly?

I don't know what to do at this point. Below are the best before and after pics that I have which show the front wheels. I'm hoping you guys can see the difference.

*Before spindles installed:*









*Before spindles installed:*








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Before spindles installed:*








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After spindles installed:*








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After spindles installed (buddy in the background, not me):*








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After spindles installed:*


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## GhostTown (Jan 25, 2011)

I've grown tired of trusting "professionals" and getting screwed because of it.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Ok.....I went thru this 15 years ago with a friend's '65 GTO. Only it was the then highly raved F-body spindle conversion. Same exact thing: Supposed to drop the front end and improve handling, etc, be alignable, etc. It took sooo many shims to try to get the caster and camber in spec that the A arm shafts ran out of bolt length, and were hitting the exhaust manifold on the passenger side. Here's what we did: we tore the friggin' F-body spindles off the car, threw them in the trash, and went to the boneyard and scored some spindles off of a '72 Cutlass with disc brakes. The car linged right up, and drove like a dream. I recommend you bite the bullet, remove those parts, return them for a refund, and install stock GM parts....from a '69-'72 disc brake A body. The parts are cheap, common, high quality, and they FIT THE CAR. Yes, I know you've been thru a lot, and it's a lot of bother, but do it now and do it right. You'll be very glad you did as soon as you drive the car.


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## GhostTown (Jan 25, 2011)

Pics of how it looks now. Cost me $560 to get the bushings/ball joints installed. The spring installation was "free" he said. I'm now $1,500 into a drop spindle kit that I want to get rid of. Nice, eh?

Here are some pics:


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## GhostTown (Jan 25, 2011)

geeteeohguy said:


> Ok.....I went thru this 15 years ago with a friend's '65 GTO. Only it was the then highly raved F-body spindle conversion. Same exact thing: Supposed to drop the front end and improve handling, etc, be alignable, etc. It took sooo many shims to try to get the caster and camber in spec that the A arm shafts ran out of bolt length, and were hitting the exhaust manifold on the passenger side. Here's what we did: we tore the friggin' F-body spindles off the car, threw them in the trash, and went to the boneyard and scored some spindles off of a '72 Cutlass with disc brakes. The car linged right up, and drove like a dream. I recommend you bite the bullet, remove those parts, return them for a refund, and install stock GM parts....from a '69-'72 disc brake A body. The parts are cheap, common, high quality, and they FIT THE CAR. Yes, I know you've been thru a lot, and it's a lot of bother, but do it now and do it right. You'll be very glad you did as soon as you drive the car.



I really appreciate your input. Trust that I'll do some studying on this.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Ghost, I'm giving it to you straight. Been doing alignments since 1983 on Hunter, Bear, and Snap-On equipment. You MAY be able to save this changover by removing the upper A arms and installing the offset shaft kits for the bushings. It looks like you have the regular straight shafts. The offset shafts MIGHT give you enough wiggle room to fix your negative camber. It's a ton of work, but the springs don't have to come out!


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## GhostTown (Jan 25, 2011)

I don't question your knowledge, I question mine.

I have no clue what an offset shaft kit for bushings is, and where or how it would install. The only bushings I can think of are on the control arm pivot points. If there is a method of adjusting their position, I can't think of how it would effect static camber. I can imagine the possibility of sliding them forward or backward a bit, which would effect castor settings. Otherwise I'm stumped.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The offset shafts are what the upper control arm bushings attach to, and what bolts to the frame of the car and holds the A arm on. They are offset about 1/4-3/8 of an inch, which adds up to a lot at the wheel. They are available from Moog. Google"off-set A arm shafts for GM A body" and go from there. They run about $20 per shaft and are as easy to install in the A-arms as the original 'straight' shafts you are now using. They are a direct replacement for your current shafts.


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

Offset shafts are a good way to go, but have you tried removing the shims to see if there is enough space to get you within specs.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*shims*

Looks like he's only got two shims in there as it is. Ye olde manual states you MUST have at least one shim installed at each bolt. I'll bet even if he took all the shims out, it wouldn't make one scant bit "o" difference. (But is certainly worth a shot). Gotta be those drop spindles. Had a similar issue with mine, except 180 degrees opposite. Had too much positive camber, wheels pegged outward at the top, and fender was WAY high. Previous mechanic installed springs incorrectly. (I'm sure that's not the problem here, though). Just food for thought. P.S. They changed all that and didn't bother to clean and paint the control arms, et al ???? (I feel for you, dude).


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## GhostTown (Jan 25, 2011)

There is only one shim on the passenger side.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

That's the problem. You shouldn't run with no shims, and even if you removed it, you wouldn't be close to spec.....you need to go much more. It's off-set shafts or, what I previously recommended: get rid of those spindles and bolt on some '69-'72 GM spindles and carry on. You can't fix it by leaving it as is.


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

geeteeohguy said:


> You shouldn't run with no shims,


Why? My 67 has no shims because of negative camber.


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## russosborne (Dec 6, 2010)

Ghostown, 

ANY time you install something not stock you run the risk of having problems. I am not saying don't ever do it, hell, you should see what all I am doing to my car. But you have to be aware of that and be prepared to deal with the consequences. 

Rule 1-no matter what the manufacturer says, NOTHING is ever truly a bolt on.
Rule 2-repeat Rule 1 over and over and over everytime you think about doing anything. 
Rule 3-relax, it's only money. 

Russ


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

05, running with the bare A-Arm shaft in contact with the frame won't hurt anything, but it's not normally done or accepted in the auto repair industry. If you need to run with no shims due to camber issues, you could have a sagged frame (common), worn ball joints (uppers, usually) which is more common, or worn/shifted bushings. There are barbaric proceedures for "rolling" the frame, which involves a frame pulling rack, and applying a ton of force to the bottom of the crossmember while pulling the A arm areas outward. This is to pull the frame back into shape and rectify "big block sag" that happens over time. I was getting ready to do this on my '67 because I was all out of adjustment room, even got an estimate from a frame shop, and then I discovered my totally worn out upper ball joints were the culprit. I replaced them and then the car all of the sudden needed the shims put back in....a bunch of them. The Moog and TRW off-set A arm shaft is a solid, dependable fix for frame sag, and is a totally acceptable and unnoticeable repair. The guy at the frame shop looked at the panel fit on my goat and warned me that a frame roll could potentially cause my panel fit to get really sloppy. As I said, I lucked out with the ball joints. But I recommend using the off-set shafts if you are running bare with no shims. Just my 2 cents........


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## GhostTown (Jan 25, 2011)

I'll be honest and tell you guys what I'm going to do. I'm going to leave the damn thing as is for 5 or 6 months and keep working on other things. Then, I'm likely going to call up that SC&C guy and make sure they listen to my entire story, understand how I am going to use the car, and put together an entire package for me that will work.

I'll also be sure to tell them that I want to know about modifications that are needed to get it installed.


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

geeteeohguy,

I believe my negative camber is a result of the back of the car being raised due to the Chevelle 12 bolt, all of the bushings and ball joints were replaced when I purchased the car in 07. Thanks for your input, I may have the alignment rechecked, I'm using another shop with better equipment for alignments.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

05, and alignment check (4 wheel) with and SAI (steering axis inclination) readouts done by a competent tech on good equipment will tell the story. As you just said, the entire car's suspension comes into play. My '67 once had a pulling issue to the right....everything up front was right on the money. Did a 4 wheel alignment, and found a 2 degree thrust angle at the rear end (rear end was cocked to the left a hair). Turned out to be a damaged upper control arm and shifted bushing. Replacing the bushings cured the mysterious pull. If your car drives fine and doesn't eat tires, I wouldn't really worry about it.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

first thing i did when i got the Tempest roadworthy was take it to a buddy's shop and have 4 wheel alignment done as the whole suspension had been replaced (and some shims lost during the process). The ride to and from the shop were like night and day, he said it was a chore to get it in spec. but he is used to it as he works on many of the local car scenes muscle cars and classics. At any speed my wheel is dead straight with no pull driving or braking, bumps less harsh, tracks well in the corners for a 3800 lb 16' long car ,to tell you the truth it rides better than most of the new cars i have had. Now 05 has me wondering if i should do the 12-bolt swap that i have laying on the floor, let us know what you find out...:confused. Ghost, i would worry if i left it on the car for 5-6 months as stated whether they would try and wiggle out of any "verbal, implied and/or written warranty" (legal puts these little caveats in there for a reason, believe me, i know) as even if you don't drive it you "used" the parts.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*control arm offset shafts*

I almost forgot about those offset shafts like gt indicated. Had to put some on my old boss' goat some 25 years ago. With no shims, you couldn't even zero it out-too much negative camber. (I do believe he had a drop kit in it). Stuck those babies on and that was that! Everyone wore smiles that day. Not saying that's what you should do, but that might be something you may want to further investigate. Also, like instg8 said, if you're going to talk to someone about your previous purchase, I wouldn't put that off at all... 6 months down the road, they will act like they never heard of you at all, (if they're anything like some of places I've had the displeasure of doing business with). Luck to you.


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## 646904GTO (Feb 10, 2008)

I've been doing alignments for a long time like GEETOGUY and I don't seem to understand how you ended up with negative camber in the first place. The spindle center line dropped two inches...straight down, that doesn't make sense to me that it would increase negative camber. The only way camber is affected is by the mounting position of the upper , lower arms or ball joints, unless the overall spindle heights are not the same and then that would lead one to believe those spindles are not correct(probably to short). I agree the offset upper arm is a great way to 'fix' this issue, we used them on the F-body for increasing negative on the right and increasing positive on the left side for oval track racing. 
As far as the shim issue...shim quantity is directly related to caster/camber optimum settings. We all know these cars have poor camber gain upon compression and so it helps to start at .5 degrees negative, but getting 3.5 degrees caster can be a challenge. I don't know the exact factory specs but these are good numbers. Rules to remember more caster is high speed stability and negative camber gain is higher corning speed.


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## GhostTown (Jan 25, 2011)

I can't return parts that were purchased new to an ebay seller and have been put on the car and driven on. It was a brake kit, with drop spindles. It wasn't even my credit card that bought the junk.

I'm eating that one. I'll try and sell it on craigslist locally when I replace it.

Again, this all comes back to a guy with a mentality that always goes with "you don't need all of that, just buy the cheap one".

The cheap one just *wasted* $1,500 and now I'm back where I started.

I want this car to confidently rail around canyon curves, motor around mountain roads, and stop like a vette. I don't want a race car, but I do want a car that I can drive without getting a pit in my stomach coming down a steep, curvy mountain road with multiple 25 mph corners. Applying further bandaids to something that is not going to work for me in the end is just wasting more cash.

While I'm at this step, I'm going to have the entire under body and frame cleaned up and painted.


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## crustysack (Oct 5, 2008)

hate to chime in but I remember you asking everyone about drop suspension and brake packages not to long ago- seems you chose to ignore advice from many folks who have done what you were trying to do. Use this forum wisely young grasshopper and you will prosper. Try Pro-touring.com if you REALLY want some insight to proper suspension set-up. I myself am NOT a suspension guru by any means,-BUT I was able to set my car up and enjoy a very nice handling ride with information gathered here and from other sites.
Listen to those whom have made the mistakes already it will save you much frustration and $$$.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

all you should need is stock GM disk brake spindles as GTO said in the 2nd post, the calipers and everything else should still work with stock spindles. All drop spindles do is raise the spindle in the geometry to drop the car. I am running the same Moog springs, with the 455 they will settle in and you won't have to worry about chewing up your rubber and/or fenders on tight parkinglot turns.


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## GhostTown (Jan 25, 2011)

crustysack said:


> hate to chime in but I remember you asking everyone about drop suspension and brake packages not to long ago-


I hate to retort, but the stuff that is on the car now was already put on the car at that time. I did not ignore any advice. The damage was already done. I was trying to gather information then, as I was with this thread because what someone installed on my car (again, someone I trusted... long damn story....) seemed incorrect to me. 

The other thread was more vague, trying to find out what everyone else uses so I could compare what I had, to what they were using. This thread is about the camber issue with these specific spindles, AFTER putting the recommended springs on the front that this forum told me to do.


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## GhostTown (Jan 25, 2011)

Had the car aligned last Thursday. The right side is 2 degrees off and the left side is 3 degrees off, both negative, of course.

Offset shafts (moog, raybestos, or global west) will only provide 1.25 degrees.

Just thought I'd update.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

GTO spindles | eBay

Spindles are 125, the brakes should bolt up, days worth of work. Chalk it up as a loss you'll go through twice that in tires running it.


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