# PS belt wont stop squeaking



## ronayers1965 (Feb 14, 2019)

I am perplexed. I have new PS pump and new Gates belts on my 65 389, but for some reason, I can't get the PS belt to stop squealing . I've sprayed it with belt dressing and it stops for about 30 seconds. I took the belt off and checked to make sure the PS pump and water pump turn freely and they do. I've checked the alignment of the pulleys and they are are in line. I even purchased a new Durlast belt and while it's better, it still squeals. Everything is new, pulleys, pump, hoses and PS box and the engine just rebuilt. I can get the belt plenty tight enough so pretty sure that's not the problem. I am beginning to suspect it may be something with the new PS pump, but odd that the belt dressing quietens the belt momentarily. The belt is a Gates 7520 and is .410 wide which seems to be the correct length and width. I am not at the end of the belt tightening travel. Has anyone experienced anything like this and if so, what's the cure? Sadly just because it's new doesn't mean it's any good anymore!!:surprise:


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## BLK69JUDGE (Jun 10, 2010)

powder coated or painted in the pulley to belt contact area ??


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

ronayers1965 said:


> I am perplexed. I have new PS pump and new Gates belts on my 65 389, but for some reason, I can't get the PS belt to stop squealing . I've sprayed it with belt dressing and it stops for about 30 seconds. I took the belt off and checked to make sure the PS pump and water pump turn freely and they do. I've checked the alignment of the pulleys and they are are in line. I even purchased a new Durlast belt and while it's better, it still squeals. Everything is new, pulleys, pump, hoses and PS box and the engine just rebuilt. I can get the belt plenty tight enough so pretty sure that's not the problem. I am beginning to suspect it may be something with the new PS pump, but odd that the belt dressing quietens the belt momentarily. The belt is a Gates 7520 and is .410 wide which seems to be the correct length and width. I am not at the end of the belt tightening travel. Has anyone experienced anything like this and if so, what's the cure? Sadly just because it's new doesn't mean it's any good anymore!!:surprise:



I have best results with the Dayco top cogged belts. I have had the other brands be too narrow and don't grab the inside edges of the pulley well enough. You might also try sanding inside the pulley to rough it up a little.

My next thought is, could the PS pump be going bad? Maybe causing too much drag and not rotating as easily as it should and not keeping up with the engine? I would spin it by hand a little feeling for anything dragging or catching. I assume it has power steering fluid/automatic trans fluid and not anything heavier?


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## ronayers1965 (Feb 14, 2019)

Jim,
Thanks! In full disclosure, my car was not born with PS. The previous owner had started the conversion and I completed it with the correct pulleys etc. I purchased a new PS pump from NPD. It also does not have factory air, so the pulley on the PS pump is not one that's in reproduction, I had to source an original used one from Sonic Motors which I just cleaned and painted with a rattle can. It seems to run true and the pulley V width seems consistent. The diameter of the non air car PS pulley (at the pump) is larger than an AC car (of which they do make reproduction pulleys for). I have removed the belt and the PS pump seems to spin pretty freely, but I had a number of "new" parts that were not any good so it's entirely possible it's faulty. I may have it replaced for good measure. Yes I only use true PS fluid. Where were you able to source the brand of belt you mentioned. Both the Gates and Durlast are .410 wide. Thanks for the tips!
Ron


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## BLK69JUDGE (Jun 10, 2010)

can we get pictures with different angles of the pulleys n belts?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

ronayers1965 said:


> Jim,
> Thanks! In full disclosure, my car was not born with PS. The previous owner had started the conversion and I completed it with the correct pulleys etc. I purchased a new PS pump from NPD. It also does not have factory air, so the pulley on the PS pump is not one that's in reproduction, I had to source an original used one from Sonic Motors which I just cleaned and painted with a rattle can. It seems to run true and the pulley V width seems consistent. The diameter of the non air car PS pulley (at the pump) is larger than an AC car (of which they do make reproduction pulleys for). I have removed the belt and the PS pump seems to spin pretty freely, but I had a number of "new" parts that were not any good so it's entirely possible it's faulty. I may have it replaced for good measure. Yes I only use true PS fluid. Where were you able to source the brand of belt you mentioned. Both the Gates and Durlast are .410 wide. Thanks for the tips!
> Ron




My belt info seems to indicate that the belt used is 7/16", or .4375. My '68 Service Manual says to use a 15/32, or .4668, wide belt for my power steering pump. Your belt as measured, .410 wide is most likely too narrow and what I experienced with my '68 Alt. belt before going to the Dayco belt. The PS belt is generally wider than the Alt. belt. 

Width is not the only consideration, the pitch at which the belt is made is important. Some can taper in too quickly giving you even less surface area to grip the pulley. So in reality, it could only be the top edge @ .410 that is gripping and this is not enough.

You should be able to get the Dayco brand of belt most anywhere. You may have to ask for it. Here is one at Rockauto (I do use Rockauto myself without issues) that says its for the 1965 GTO 389CI and the width is .440. Cheap enough, $4.46 plus shipping: Here is the listing page for the belts - https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/pontiac,1965,gto,6.4l+389cid+v8,1350290,belt+drive,belt,8900 AND here is the actual Dayco belt specs for Dayco #15515 https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinf...vN+/MqdGd5S4AHTx3pdc+nXBHUVOvnZmWQrnlmWxKmw==


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## ronayers1965 (Feb 14, 2019)

Jim and all, Thanks again! Unfortunately Dayco belts can not ship to California per Rockauto's site because they don't have the necessary prop 65 warning information from Dayco. Not sure what to do now but maybe can order it from another source. Nothing is easy in California and we are looking to move from here soon! Thanks for the pulley info too. In thinking about it, both the new crank and water pump pulleys are probably powder coated so perhaps roughing these up in the V will help to give them more grip. I will let you know how the story unfolds.
Ron


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## ronayers1965 (Feb 14, 2019)

Just found the belt locally at Carquest Auto parts. Will let you know if that fixes the problem


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

I had a similar problem with my El Camino. Tried belts from Gates, Dayco, roughed up the pulleys, nothing worked until I bought some Goodyear Gatorback belts from O'Reillys. Not a squeak since.

Make sure to clean all the belt dressing residue from your pulleys. As you've seen thats just a temporary measure and is pretty much useless. The residue contaminates any new belts you may put on and you're back to square one.

New belts will stretch for the first couple hundred miles and will need to be re-adjusted again.


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## ronayers1965 (Feb 14, 2019)

Still have noise. I found the Dayco 15515 locally and installed it. With it being slightly shorter than the Gates, It now made my alternator belt too long, so back to the parts store for a Dayco 15505. This helped for a few minutes, but the squealing soon returned. So I returned the PS pump to NPD for a new exchange and just installed that, but still I am getting the noise, although it's now more of a grumbling/squealing noise and the belt dressing does not quieten it. Just to be sure, I removed the PS belt and fired the engine again and the noise was not there, so I know it's not the water pump nor the alternator. I've also cleaned the pulleys and using my Dremel tool, I ground the powder coating off the water pump and crank pulleys and the any paint from the PS pulley, then cleaned everything with Acetone and by using the Dremel instead of sand paper, I was able to create roughness on the pulley in the opposite direction, which should have increased grip, but still I have this noise. I was careful not to grind too much to increase the pulley V width. I have double and triple checked any and all pulley alignment and interference with the belt. I am not a novice at this as I have been working on cars as a hobby since I was 15 and am now 66 and did this same conversion on my Nova many years ago without any problem. I just can't figure this out and feel really defeated. I don't know what to do now other than convert it back to manual steering and try to sell the PS components. Any ideas and suggestions would be greatly appreciated!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

ronayers1965 said:


> Still have noise. I found the Dayco 15515 locally and installed it. With it being slightly shorter than the Gates, It now made my alternator belt too long, so back to the parts store for a Dayco 15505. This helped for a few minutes, but the squealing soon returned. So I returned the PS pump to NPD for a new exchange and just installed that, but still I am getting the noise, although it's now more of a grumbling/squealing noise and the belt dressing does not quieten it. Just to be sure, I removed the PS belt and fired the engine again and the noise was not there, so I know it's not the water pump nor the alternator. I've also cleaned the pulleys and using my Dremel tool, I ground the powder coating off the water pump and crank pulleys and the any paint from the PS pulley, then cleaned everything with Acetone and by using the Dremel instead of sand paper, I was able to create roughness on the pulley in the opposite direction, which should have increased grip, but still I have this noise. I was careful not to grind too much to increase the pulley V width. I have double and triple checked any and all pulley alignment and interference with the belt. I am not a novice at this as I have been working on cars as a hobby since I was 15 and am now 66 and did this same conversion on my Nova many years ago without any problem. I just can't figure this out and feel really defeated. I don't know what to do now other than convert it back to manual steering and try to sell the PS components. Any ideas and suggestions would be greatly appreciated!



Don't give in yet. Have the factory belt cross dimensions. At the top, or widest, it should be 7/16". Measuring from top to bottom, it is 5/16". The pitch (side angle of the belt) is 36 degrees.

Is it possible you have the wrong pulley, and it is not for a Pontiac, and could be something else, or even late model that uses metric belts?

Uploaded 2 drawings of the belt placement. Photo #1 is 1970 8 Cyl and Photo #2 is 1971 8 Cyl., both of which should be close to yours. The PS belt goes around the waterpump & lower crank pulley. The Alt. belt goes around the water pump and lower crank pulley. Each are separate and you should have a double groove pulley on both the water pump and lower crank pulley.

Next option might be another PS pulley. I don't know if you have to have original, but I purchases an aluminum pulley and painted it black. Have not installed nor used it yet, but this is the company I used. They have both keyway type pulleys and press fit. https://www.cvfracing.com/pontiac-power-steering-pulley-keyway-shaft/ 

Maybe take it to a local shop or dealer and let them take a look. They might spot the problem right away. It could be something very simple you are overlooking. Happens to me when I get frustrated sometimes. I have learned to walk away for a while and then come back to it.


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## ronayers1965 (Feb 14, 2019)

Jim,
Yes that's the pulley configuration I have and thank you for sending the diagrams! As the pulley for non AC cars is not in reproduction in steel, I purchased a used one from Sonic Motors in Michigan. They specialize in used original Pontiac parts and as far as I know, this is the correct pulley. It's a 5 7/8" diameter. It was more of a slip fit rather than a press fit on the shaft so maybe that's the problem. The PS shaft is tapered on the back nearest the pump and keyed, so one would think that by tightening the nut, it would capture the pulley firmly regardless of taper fit. The super frustrating thing is that this should all have been pretty straight forward and not rocket science. It may be the pulley, but could be a second bad pump, since the noise changed to add a grumbling component in addition to the squeal or could be a combination of things including the new, reproduction mounting brackets, although everything seems to align. My experience so far with reproduction "original" parts has been pretty disappointing with most of them being poorly made, even from the best of suppliers. As far as finding someone to look at it, in my 35 years of living in California, I have yet to find any shops that understand or work on old cars. I will order that pulley and let you know if that corrects the problem. 
Thanks again!
Ron


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

My only other thoughts are that you mentioned the aftermarket bracket. 1.) does it have enough movement to properly tighten the belt, ie the slot at the back where the threaded stud goes through. 2.) Could the front bolt that goes through the PS bracket/Alt used for tightening the pump be bottoming out in the block, not allowing it to really clamp down enough to remain tight once the engine starts running? 

Sounds like your pump is the keyway style and won't slip.


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## Safe-T-Track (Jun 17, 2019)

As others have stated, the width of the belt is critical. Today, the aftermarket manufacturers produce fewer belt variants for these older cars and many of the reference catalogs combine belt widths that are 'close' into a recommended replacement to minimize inventory which may be different enough than what the factory recommends. Proper belt width is easily examined by looking at how deep the belt sits in the pulley groove. Ideally, the top of the belt should be nearly flush with the top of the pulley, not protruding above or recessed below by too large an amount. And this should be observed at each and every pulley (crank, PS, Alt, AC) to ensure that the belts are turning at the proper speed relative to each other and not fighting each other which can lead to squeal. For example, if the PS belt is flush with the top of the crank pulley groove, but recessed noticeably below the PS pulley groove, then it is possible one of the pulleys is incorrect for the application and changing belts over and over will not resolve the squeal. Examine the belt depth at each pulley groove and make sure they are near the top and uniform depth at all locations.


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## ronayers1965 (Feb 14, 2019)

Jim and all, thanks again for all the advice. I should have looked more closely at the CVF Racing PONT2PS Alum. pulley information before ordering it because it's for a 3/4" shaft and a press on, My PS shaft is 5/8" and is keyed. So I ordered again (PONT1PS) and installed it yesterday and it seems to have corrected the squealing problems! I am not sure why, perhaps more grip? The CVF tech told me that both the 3/4" and 5/8" shaft PS pumps were available for 1965. One more problem solved, but thought I should share with the group about the two different PS shaft sizes and mounting types. The CVF guys were great with the exchange and I recommend them to anyone in need of pulleys, especially those with non AC cars where the original steel PS pulley type is not available in reproduction. So I have an original steel pulley for sale if anyone is interested!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

ronayers1965 said:


> Jim and all, thanks again for all the advice. I should have looked more closely at the CVF Racing PONT2PS Alum. pulley information before ordering it because it's for a 3/4" shaft and a press on, My PS shaft is 5/8" and is keyed. So I ordered again (PONT1PS) and installed it yesterday and it seems to have corrected the squealing problems! I am not sure why, perhaps more grip? The CVF tech told me that both the 3/4" and 5/8" shaft PS pumps were available for 1965. One more problem solved, but thought I should share with the group about the two different PS shaft sizes and mounting types. The CVF guys were great with the exchange and I recommend them to anyone in need of pulleys, especially those with non AC cars where the original steel PS pulley type is not available in reproduction. So I have an original steel pulley for sale if anyone is interested!



Thanks for the follow-up update. Did not know there were 2 different shaft sizes, but did know that there were press-on and keyed shaft/pulleys.

Glad you liked the CVF pulley. I thought it looked good myself and was light weight, and painted up black fits right along with the other engine pulleys. :thumbsup:


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## BLK69JUDGE (Jun 10, 2010)

that should be this pulley

is it ?? or an ac 6901 ??


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Ron, sorry to hear you have not fixed it yet.

Belts squeal because they 1) slip 2) are too loose 3) are out of alignment

The alignment with a straight edge is the old method and works mostly, but a belt laser light a Gates belt laser is the real way.

Buy one borrow one, rent one and test belt alignment. You may have to put a different spacer under a pulley, spacer with just 50mm difference can make an awful squeal.

Never use belt dressing and discard any belt you used it on as now it is contaminated.

Start with a new belt and get a Gates belt tension Kricket gauge about $15 find your new belt spec on the Gates website and follow their instructions to tighten it once the alignment is right.

A new belt you run for five minutes and it stretches and settles in.

Let us know how you do


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Lemans guy said:


> Ron, sorry to hear you have not fixed it yet.
> 
> Belts squeal because they 1) slip 2) are too loose 3) are out of alignment
> 
> ...



You must have missed it in his post, " So I ordered again (PONT1PS) and installed it yesterday and it seems to have corrected the squealing problems!"

It be fixed. :thumbsup:


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Yes sorry, looks like it is fixed....nice work!


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