# Total timing?



## poncho power (Nov 28, 2012)

Sorry, a rookie question here...

How does one go about getting the total timing? I've been told my 68 Firebirds should be running around 36 total timing. It is a 428, HEI distributor. #48 heads. Holley double pumper. Unfortunately, I don't know the cam size, as I bought the car already restored...

From what I understand, you do the initial timing at idle. Then what? Check timing at 3,000 rpm. And then add the two together. 

Any help would be great guys, thanks.....


----------



## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Set your timing light @ 36 shine on balancer hub and rev until advance is "all in" then set timing to zero on the hub.
It helps to have someone hold the throttle @ all in while you do the adjustment.


----------



## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

If you don't have a dial-back timing light, your balancer(which many insist be called a damper) will have to be marked or labeled in some way, to at least 36 degrees, so that you can use a conventional timing light, to check the total timing. 

*ATI, Fluidampr and TCI Clear Up Damper Confusion - EngineLabs*

Here's what a guy posted a few years back, on this site.

"...You don't need a timing tape. Simply do an accurate TDC verification to determine the "0" line on the balancer and then use a dial-back timing light for all your timing work. As a short-cut, you can determine/verify the "0" mark with a good TDC verification and then simply measure the circumference of the balancer and divide by 10 to put a line at the 36-degree mark - this is all you'll need to work your timing issues since your timing tab will allow you to see and work within +/- 4 degrees of the 36-degree mark with ease..."


----------



## john23 (Mar 6, 2016)

every motor is different for total timing, depending on speed of flame front and a lot of other contributing factors such as rpm, piston speed, altitude and octane of the fuel. generally speaking the longer stroke motors like the 455, want a little less timing than the shorter stroke motors like the 400... the absolutely best way is to put it on a dyno and let them set your timing to make maximum power (if that is what you are after) the old seat of the pants method is to set it and drive it under different conditions adding timing until it pings then backing off a few degrees. this is done under part throttle and load....don't forget your vacuum advance has a lot to do with timing also. adjusting timing is always done with the vacuum advance disconnected....

one other thing, timing covers with the cast in degrees can be off. don't rely too heavily on them...also an old balancer can have slip between the inner and outer portions causing the timing mark to be inaccurate...


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

You might search on this forum for the topic, it has been discussed a lot over the years. 
I'll try to summarize for you:
* First, you don't/can't set initial timing as an independent thing from total timing. The two are inexorably linked together. Changing one _will_ change the other.

* "Both" have the same overall objective, which is to set the maximum advance that the engine will "see" under load, at wide open throttle. However, since it's practically impossible to create that condition (engine under load at the wide open throttle) while it's sitting still in your driveway (while you're under the hood and fiddling with things), we take advantage of the first fact above- that the two settings are linked and changing one affects the other.

* Vacuum advance: Its purpose is to add additional timing under part throttle, not under full load conditions because that tends to help with fuel economy. This however is a secondary concern and is not part of the discussion. Any time we're talking about setting total timing, the optimum timing for max performance, etc. It means that vacuum advance is NOT part of the conversation and thus should be disconnected and plugged so that there are no leaks. Remember, at full load wide open throttle, the engine is producing almost zero vacuum anyway - so the vacuum system won't be doing anything under those conditions.

Ok now: As John23 said, every engine is different. Even "identical" engines (same make, model, year, and build details) won't necessarily all have the same "best" settings for advance/timing that will produce the highest torque/power output. For any given engine, the only way to find the "best" setting for it is through testing. This usually means something like repeated runs at the track (with very accurate time clocks) or repeated dyno pulls -- with each pass/pull made under as near identical conditions as possible (same air temp, same humidity, same fuel, same beginning engine temp, same driving technique, same RPM range, etc.) The process involves choosing a starting point, then making very small changes to the setting until you find the one that produces the best results. To my knowledge, that's the only way to really nail it.

For Pontiac engines with open-chamber, cast iron heads, the "best" setting will frequently be GENERALLY in the vicinity of 35-36 degrees total, "all in" by 2500-2600 rpm. Closed chamber iron heads (like the 670s) generally will "like" more than that as will some aluminum heads. Some, with really efficient chambers (like the aftermarket heart-shaped chambers), may not want as much. When trying to find the optimum setting for your engine, you're actually chasing three different variables: 1) what's the total advance setting it likes and 2) how much advance is "in" your ignition system - i.e. is the range from minimum to maximum 30 degrees? 20? 15? 10? 3) How 'quickly' does the variable part of that "come in" - i.e. from idle when the advance is at its minimum, as rpm starts to climb does it reach a maximum at 2000 rpm? 2500? 3000? etc.

On factory GM points distributors, there's a pin on the underneath side of the advance mechanism that rides in a slot that determines how much travel/advance it's capable of. To limit the amount of travel, you put different-sized bushings on that pin to limit how far it can move in that slot, or if you need more --- you use a smaller bushing and/or grind the slot to make it "longer". You tune "how fast" the advance "comes in" by using heavier/lighter weights and springs on the mechanism.

People have been talking about 'dial back' timing lights. Such light has an adjustable control on it that you move to 'change' the apparent position of the timing marks and also will have a meter on it for reading advance. The way you use them, is you move the control so that the timing marks line up at exactly TDC, then read the meter to see how advanced that setting actually is. Here's an example of one: *https://www.amazon.com/INNOVA-3555-Advance-Timing-Light/dp/B000EVYH7W*

For them to work properly (for any light to work properly, for that matter) you must be certain that the marks on the balancer actually DO accurately indicate when the engine is at TDC. Not all do. The outer ring on a factory balancer, especially an "old" one, can slip due to the elastomer drying out, aging, or just plain wearing out causing the marks to "lie" to you. Some aftermarket balancers can be off even when brand new, as can timing covers.

Now that we have all THAT out of the way, the process for setting "total advance" using either an accurate timing tape or a dial backlight is actually pretty simple.

* Disconnect and plug the vacuum advance (to simulate the vacuum the engine produces at wide open throttle under load).

* Hook up your light.


Have a friend slowly increase RPM until you can tell from the light that all the advance is 'in' (increasing rpm more won't cause the marks to 'move' anymore).
Either read the amount of advance from the timing tape, or from the dial-back light.

* If it's not where you want it, adjust it (the same way you do at idle - loosen the clamp enough to allow turning the distributor, re-tighten, read again ---- repeat until you have it where you want it). You can change it while the engine is at rpm if you have 'big brass ones' but I tend to not like doing that myself 

* Go make a pass/dyno pull and measure the results.

* Lather, rinse, and repeat until you find the setting that produces the best numbers.

If you've ever watched 'Engine Power' on weekends or other programs where they build engines then dyno them, that's what they do. They'll start out at a timing setting that they know will be 'too low and then slowly add timing until they find the setting that produces the best power numbers. For Pontiacs, generally, I like to start out at around 30-31 degrees and then work my way up from there, a degree at a time.

Then, once you've found the optimum setting. Use your light again (vacuum advance disconnected and plugged) - this time with the engine sitting at idle. You're not going to adjust or change anything, you're already done with that. What you're doing is just READING what the idle setting is so that the next time you need to adjust timing (you've had the distributor out for some reason, for example) you'll know where to set it AT IDLE so that it's at the optimum setting without having to go through that whole process again at RPM.

Hope this helps,

Bear


----------



## john23 (Mar 6, 2016)

Bear, thorough and accurate response... you pretty much covered it all..it would've taken me a week to write that...


----------



## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Poncho,..those guys big D , John, bear and Goat roper are all spot on as usual. I set these up for my buds on my Sun distributor machine, to make me run great. I go by Lars formulas as I believe he has the deep knowledge, and I include the crew above in that also.
Read one of Lars papers on timing on the forum and web it will help.

So here is how I say the same thing basically. You have three ignition timing measurements with the dizzy.

1 Base timing...you set with your hand
2 Centrifigal timing....set with the springs and weights under the rotor cap

Together these are called, "Total Mechanical Timing",.... to "Total Timing" for short

3 Vacumn advance .....from the Vac can in the dizzy

If you have an dial back timing light it is very you can check your "Centrifigal advance".... 

Old Lars trick and it works good, set your base between 8 - 12 get you running. Vac disconnect and plugged to engine.

Now turn off motor and take off dizzy cap and rotor and one spring on the advance weights. Put rotor cap back on ...don't lose the spring.

With timing light set up, park or neutral, parking brake on, wheels chocked, good to halve a helper.

Rev the engine up until the timing stops advancing,...you should be able to see that pretty fast in 3 or 4 thousand RPM's because the one spring missing throws that weight out so fast.

With dial back light read your timing at o...it may be 30, 26, 20 etc.

If it is 30, you need to set your base timing at 6, if 26, set base at 10......Centrifigal + Base =36 to 38....some hot race cars can differ as was pointed out most street cars factory and mild builds wills still be 36 to 38......

Add ten more from a vac can.....that will give you 46 to 48. If your running HEI.....

Use a Standard Motor Products VC 302.......they manufacture them all

Rock auto calls it a VC 302. ..........NAPA a VC 1703..........O'Reilly calls it a BWD V482......all the same stamped 626 10

It will give you 10 degrees advance at crank.....

You can do more Dino stuff and you can adjust weights and springs for when the advance comes in with curve kits easy,

But to start you need to know where you are......those adjustable vac cans with the hex nose on adjust the rate of vac advance when it starts and ends.......tested two in the last week or so both had 22 degrees of timing way too much, it will make your car run awful....

Good luck...you will get it!


----------



## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

PS don't forget to put the advance spring back in after the test!


----------

