# Numbers matching question.



## 2001WS6vert (Jun 8, 2011)

I just bought a 1970 Judge 4 speed off Ebay. I am trying to figure out some issues with the engine and trans. numbers. First the engine, the car should have a WS Ram air III. It does have the WS code and the serial number matches the car but... the casting number is 9799915 which should be for a Ram air IV. The 5 at the end is also stamped into the block and not raised like the rest of the numbers. Now with the trans., it has two serial numbers and two casting numbers. One set matches the car and the other does not. In fact the other cast code ends in a C which would be an M22 which it does not appear to be. The date codes for both pieces are 8-69 and the car was produced 12-69. Any help would be appreciated. Are there any experts that I could contact to clear this up? So far Googling hasn't helped.


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

Casting number 9799915 should have a WW, XP code for GTO. The WS code had a casting number of 9799914. Not sure what to say if you have a WS 9799915.


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## pontiac (Mar 6, 2011)

all block numbers should be raised castings, no stamps. if serial no. matches vin, then you got the right block, and someone messed with the block casting no. Sounds like the trans also got messed with. maybe at some point in its history, someone was trying to pull a fast one. trans should also match vin. Other nos. sound bogus.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

2001WS6vert said:


> I just bought a 1970 Judge 4 speed off Ebay. I am trying to figure out some issues with the engine and trans. numbers. First the engine, the car should have a WS Ram air III. It does have the WS code and the serial number matches the car but... the casting number is 9799915 which should be for a Ram air IV. The 5 at the end is also stamped into the block and not raised like the rest of the numbers. Now with the trans., it has two serial numbers and two casting numbers. One set matches the car and the other does not. In fact the other cast code ends in a C which would be an M22 which it does not appear to be. The date codes for both pieces are 8-69 and the car was produced 12-69. Any help would be appreciated. Are there any experts that I could contact to clear this up? So far Googling hasn't helped.


Are you a GTOAA member? If you are your questions will be answered. This is another benefit of being a member there are experts on each year to help members with technical etc questions. John Johnson is a Judge authority and will be able to answer your questions. 

If it turns out this car was sold to you under false pretenses, stampings etc were doctored up and the seller fraud-ed you, well if it were me, I'd get all the verifiable information in order and seek legal recourse if an amicable solution cannot be worked out. I have read countless articles on fraud and doppelgangers to not do something about it if it happened to me.


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

The engine code, WS, and engine vin are stamped. Either one or both could be changed rather easily. A '70 Judge could of had a RAM IV. Are you sure it's a Judge? Did you see or purchase the PHS to verify it had the Judge option before purchasing? I'm assuming "the car should have a WS Ram air III" means you did see some form of documentation? There's plenty of Judge clones out there. Not saying yours is one of them.....


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

If the last digit of that block casting number is stamped, not raised, you can take it to the bank that it has been altered. So if we assume "5" is wrong, then the original number must have been either "4" (a 400 with 4-bolt main webs, not necessarily a RA III), or a "6" (a 350!!). Someone who knew enough to alter that casting number would have also known enough to alter every other stamped number on the car, so all of them are now suspect and can't be trusted. All you can rely on are the raised casting numbers. Start with the 4 character date code on top near the distributor hole (which should also be raised) and make sure it ends in either "9" or "0" (and make sure it's raised and not stamped). Otherwise it can't be a model year 1970 block. Check the VIN tag and make sure the rivets look right - although it's possible to fake those too.

One shot you have is the frame VIN stamp, just because it's so hard to get to. It's usually on the driver's side frame rail, on the top between the frame and the body, on the rear part of the frame. If you're really lucky you might be able to clean it off and see it with a bright light and a mirror held at an angle. Some GM cars also had another VIN stamp on the firewall under the heater-AC blower motor, but not all - and this even varied by assembly plant. You have to pull the passenger side inner fender, or cut a hole in it, to see it - and it might not even be there.

Hate to say it, but for sure that block casting number has been altered so it's possible this isn't a Judge, or even a GTO.

Bear


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

For whatever reason, I didn't tie the stamped 5 with the block casting number. But Bear's right. That number has been changed, who knows what else has been altered too. You have alot of digging ahead of you to figure out what you "really" have. I hope you didn't pay Judge money if it turns out to be a LeMans..... Good luck. Hope it turns out better than it sounds....


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## MITYGTO (Jun 10, 2011)

*Numbers Matching Question*



68greengoat said:


> For whatever reason, I didn't tie the stamped 5 with the block casting number. But Bear's right. That number has been changed, who knows what else has been altered too. You have alot of digging ahead of you to figure out what you "really" have. I hope you didn't pay Judge money if it turns out to be a LeMans..... Good luck. Hope it turns out better than it sounds....


I would definately have PHS run your VIN. That will be the only true way to document your car as an original Judge. Your numbers could all be in order which would mean you have a numbers matching car but not necesarily a Judge. I hope this story has a happy ending for you.


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## D1147 (Sep 3, 2009)

I'll have to check my books. But if i remember correctly pontiac used the same block for raiii and raiv. The last digit was ground off by the factory on the raiv blocks and stamped with a "5". This was done by the factory! Sounds to me like you have a raiv block that has been restamped with "ws" and your vin.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I'm with Bear: one number altered raises a red flag about every other number. I sure hope this one has a happy ending. Please keep us posted!!


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

I guess I've never heard of the factory grinding off a number and restamping it. If for some reason it's true, I and I'm sure others, would really like to see the supporting documentation..


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

i guess we will never know


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

D1147 said:


> I'll have to check my books. But if i remember correctly pontiac used the same block for raiii and raiv. The last digit was ground off by the factory on the raiv blocks and stamped with a "5". This was done by the factory! Sounds to me like you have a raiv block that has been restamped with "ws" and your vin.


I've never heard that. Why would they bother? It's just extra time, effort, and expense for them to do that for no benefit to them. We already know that the same block casting numbers were used for very different engine builds - for example in 1970 the very same block was used for both the Ram Air III and for the "lov-performance" 2bbl 400 in the Grand Prix, and they didn't bother to change the numbers on that one.

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I agree with Bear, again. These were mass produced, affordable cars. Even the Judge. Nobody was even remotely concerned about collectablility or value and documentation 40 plus years down the road. The wasted time and expense of doing hand labor over a part number does not wash. The line had to keep moving.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

I can't attest to what GM does or did to correct an error when stamping...
I assembled Mack Trucks for a lot of years and seen errors made when stamping a VIN on the chassis. The proper procedure for Mack was to peen the incorrect digit or letter then stamp a series of stars beside the peened letter or digit with the correct digit then stamped.

With castings; if an error is made I would think the unit would be destroyed and recycled. Grounding the affected number IMO and stamping would open a Pandora box. There will always be questions on the validity of that being the correct block. This case demonstrates it.


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## DarthBubba (Oct 27, 2009)

I think I remember something recently on another forum regarding the last digit ground off and stamped with a 5 from the factory. Always a spirited discussion there! LOL

I'm not sure if it's okay to post the other forum name here, but shoot me a PM and I can point you in that direction. Would make a good discussion to follow at least. Hope it's the real deal for you!!


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