# Something's wrong with my LS2.



## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

On the way to work, just cruising at freeway speeds during commute my engine started to sound like it was knocking and clicking.

My idle is rough
Check engine light is blinking
I'm backfiring depending on how much gas I give it.

I was able to drive it to work for another 30 miles and just park it there.

Any idea what it might be?

It's Maggied with Kooks LTH and full exhaust.

Something I like to add:

A couple of weeks ago it made a knocking sound and went away on it's own. the check engine light went off.

With just 100~ miles left on the warranty (the car has just under 75k miles) I took it in for inspection.

I did the routine paperwork.

A few days later the dealership told me that it was the O2 sensor and apparently replaced it. According to them they replaced both of them when I recall only having the front ones on there due to the catless exhaust mods.

When they returned the car back to me the dealership (for the first time) never asked me to sign any release paperwork that I normally do every time I take the car back. Even though my current mileage has exceeded the warranty, does this mean that it's still technically under some sorta warranty conditions based on the mileage when the GTO was first dropped off?

What do you think the engine problems are?

I have no milky white residue on the dipstick or oil cap.

Spark plugs are still original OEM. Plug wires have been swapped out with Thundervolt 50.


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

batmans said:


> My idle is rough
> Check engine light is blinking
> I'm backfiring depending on how much gas I give it.


That almost sounds like your cam is off... like the timing chain jumped a tooth or something. Or you have a wicked manifold leak between your intake & block?


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

if that's the case, would it be a simple replacement of the timing chain?

I looked around and didn't see any manifold leak....


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

It's deep, I'm not sure where the chain cover is on the front of the block (I'm used to the oldschool iron-block platforms, LS's are totally new to me), but once you get it off, it should be relatively straight forward. You'll probably need to turn the motor by hand to TDC @ cylinder 1 to line up the dots on the crank & cam properly. Even then, the installer might have advanced the cam by 2-3 degrees.

If you are indeed going to tackle it yourself, invest in a new chain & gear set... the old chain is probably stretched and that's why it jumped. SLP makes a set, actually. SLP Performance 55003 - SLP Performance LS2 Double-Roller Timing Chain Sets - Overview - SummitRacing.com


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

I spoke with the tech line at Summit racing and Trickflow and they both think that it's a bent pushrod and/or broken spring.

I hope that is just the problem (if it's going to come outta my pocket).

Trick Flow Specialties TFS-21407400 - Trick Flow® Chromemoly Pushrods - Overview - SummitRacing.com
Trick Flow Specialties TFS-2500300 - Trick Flow® Valve Spring Upgrade Kits - Overview - SummitRacing.com


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

Get a short piece of hose, like 2 feet, and listen with one end while searching the block with the other while it idles. You should be able to get a better idea of exactly where the knock/click is coming from.

Have you checked your CEL codes yet? Try the "Mode & Set" trick (turning the key to on while holding both) and scroll through to Trouble Codes.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

I'm going to drop it off at the dealership to have them run the CEL.


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

You should check it first, just to verify if they're feeding you a line of BS later on. Just write 'em down and cross reference them on teh interwebs. I guess I wouldn't say that otherwise, except they might put up a hard fight with you just running out of warranty.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

The CEL for the first time around was 1133 & 1153 for the O2 sensor.

496 was for a purge relief valve.


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

batmans said:


> My idle is rough
> Check engine light is blinking
> I'm backfiring depending on how much gas I give it.
> 
> *Spark plugs are still original OEM*. Plug wires have been swapped out with Thundervolt 50.


I would look into an ignition fault. A blinking CEL usually means there is the potential for catalyst failure due to a cylinder or multiple cylinder misfires, which will pour raw fuel into the exhaust causing catalyst failure.

If you suspect mechanical failure, do a compression test. It will verify most mechanical faults.

If I understand that those are the original plugs in there, I would start there. Hope this helps.

Jeff


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

kywhitelightning said:


> I would look into an ignition fault. A blinking CEL usually means there is the potential for catalyst failure due to a cylinder or multiple cylinder misfires, which will pour raw fuel into the exhaust causing catalyst failure.
> 
> If you suspect mechanical failure, do a compression test. It will verify most mechanical faults.
> 
> ...


car has no cats (they were removed long ago),

what might cause the knocking pinging and rattling sounds as if there are loose bolts?


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

batmans said:


> car has no cats (they were removed long ago),
> 
> what might cause the knocking pinging and rattling sounds as if there are loose bolts?


I understand that there are no cats but the cars computer still thinks they're there; and if they were, there would be enough raw fuel dumping in the exhaust to potentially destroy the catalyst. That is where the flashing CEL comes in. The crank sensor usually is the one that picks this up as it registers a stop and go pattern which is what happens in a misfire event.

O2 sensors will read lean in a misfire condition as well because the oxygen ingested into the engine goes straight to the tailpipe and is unburned.

Are the plugs new or old? If old change them.

Check your fuel pressure, the sensor could've went out.

Do the compression test as this will verify Summit's and Trickflow's over the phone diagnosis. A running compression test may be needed to verify this as conditions change quite a bit from a cranking compression test to a running compression test. The noise could be a broken mechanical part as I believe this is what Summit and Trickflow based their diagnosis on.

See if you can pull the codes now because parts have been changed since the last codes were read. The codes may lead you to focus on which cylinder or cylinders to check. Good luck.

Jeff


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## jpalamar (Jul 22, 2008)

batmans said:


> My idle is rough
> Check engine light is blinking
> I'm backfiring depending on how much gas I give it.
> 
> I was able to drive it to work for another 30 miles and just park it there.


Too many possibilities to guess what is wrong, but whatever it is I'm sure you did 10X more damage by driving it 30+ miles after it had issues.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

I drove it 50 miles to the shop.

I should know today or tomorrow what is wrong.

Just outta curiousity, can the push rods be changed with removing the valve cover off and accessing everything from there?

Or does it involve pulling the heads off?


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

Changed above post as I didn't know the 05's had returnless fuel systems.

Jeff


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

kywhitelightning said:


> The crank sensor usually is the one that picks this up as it registers a stop and go pattern which is what happens in a misfire event.
> 
> O2 sensors will read lean in a misfire condition as well because the oxygen ingested into the engine goes straight to the tailpipe and is unburned.
> 
> ...


Not sure were you got your information Jeff, but you are wrong on both parts. 
A crank sensor does NOT 'pick up' a missfire. It helps tell the computer which coil and plug to fire and when by reading signals from an esentric ring on the crank. It's a computer imput signal, not a monitering sensor.

Durring a missfire the unburned fuel will be read as a rich condition by the O2 sensor. This can be verified with a good scan tool that reads engine info, create a missfire without dissabling an injector and you should see it start going rich. If the missfire is caused by the injector and there is no fuel to the cyl, then it can cause a lean condition.


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

And it begins LOL
Hmmm...... Batman begins 

To get the rod out/adjust valve lash just the valve cover, to get the liffters out you must take the heads off.


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

Rukee said:


> Not sure were you got your information Jeff, but you are wrong on both parts.
> A crank sensor does NOT 'pick up' a missfire. It helps tell the computer which coil and plug to fire and when by reading signals from an esentric ring on the crank. It's a computer imput signal, not a monitering sensor.
> 
> Durring a missfire the unburned fuel will be read as a rich condition by the O2 sensor. This can be verified with a good scan tool that reads engine info, create a missfire without dissabling an injector and you should see it start going rich. If the missfire is caused by the injector and there is no fuel to the cyl, then it can cause a lean condition.


An O2 sensor only reads OXYGEN, hence the name O2 sensor. If there is a misfire there will be an abundance of oxygen because none of it burned in combustion chamber. The piston then pushes the unburned oxygen and fuel out of the cylinder into the exhaust stream and is read as a lean condition, because the O2 sensor ONLY reads oxygen content.

The crank sensor picks up crankshaft speed and is as you said is an input to the computer. The computer then can tell if the engine has had a misfire based on crankshaft speed.

Jeff


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

MJGTOWISH said:


> And it begins LOL
> Hmmm...... Batman begins
> 
> To get the rod out/adjust valve lash just the valve cover, to get the liffters out you must take the heads off.


ugh.......


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

This is what my mechanic found:

Check engine light indicates that cylinder #1 (driver side front) was misfiring.

He pulled the plug out and said that the plug is bent.

Compression is nominal. He put a replacement plug and the misfiring is gone and no check engine light.

According to him there is still some of the ticking noise.

I'm going to take the car back and swap out the factory plugs with the NGK (thqat everyone is raving about) ones that I have for the GTO.

If i still have problems I'll take it back and that is where they would open it up.

Any thoughts on what might have happened?

I'm picking it up today after work.


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

batmans said:


> This is what my mechanic found:
> 
> Check engine light indicates that cylinder #1 (driver side front) was misfiring.
> 
> ...


*Sweet, take special note if the plugs you have in there now are one stage hoter or colder...(they maybe because your F/I) If you don't know what i'm talking about talk to your MECH-X*


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

kywhitelightning said:


> I would look into an ignition fault. A blinking CEL usually means there is the potential for catalyst failure due to a cylinder or multiple cylinder misfires, which will pour raw fuel into the exhaust causing catalyst failure.
> 
> If you suspect mechanical failure, do a compression test. It will verify most mechanical faults.
> 
> ...





kywhitelightning said:


> I understand that there are no cats but the cars computer still thinks they're there; and if they were, there would be enough raw fuel dumping in the exhaust to potentially destroy the catalyst. That is where the flashing CEL comes in. The crank sensor usually is the one that picks this up as it registers a stop and go pattern which is what happens in a misfire event.
> 
> O2 sensors will read lean in a misfire condition as well because the oxygen ingested into the engine goes straight to the tailpipe and is unburned.
> 
> ...


I must not be too misinformed Rukee as I believe I hit the nail on the head from the very beginning.

Glad to hear your car is running better batmans. Got a picture you can post up to maybe be able to tell what caused your fault? I would be very concerned if the ground strap bent over, but if those are the original plugs which you still haven't clarified yet then I would chalk it up to age. If they were fairly new, well I hope they weren't fairly new. A colder plug running that much power with I'm assuming factory compression or more should be a must. I run 2 stages colder on my little import and am considering going 3 stages colder. The colder plug will release heat from the plug tip faster than a hotter plug which lowers the likelyhood of detonation a lot. Move that heat to the coolant as fast as possible and away from the combustion chamber. The only flaw with colder plugs is that they foul more frequently.

Jeff


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

batmans said:


> This is what my mechanic found:
> 
> Check engine light indicates that cylinder #1 (driver side front) was misfiring.
> 
> ...


I hope no shrapnel is in the cylinder from the plug breaking .

Jeff


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

No the electrode is intact but touching the other part.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

MJGTOWISH said:


> And it begins LOL
> Hmmm...... Batman begins
> 
> To get the rod out/adjust valve lash just the valve cover, to get the liffters out you must take the heads off.


So you just remove the valve covers and take off the rockers with a 6-point 8mm and the pushrods come right out?

Is there anything anchoring it on the bottom part of the push rod?

I'm new to this coming from the Rotary and VTEC world. LOL.


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## HP11 (Apr 11, 2009)

I've never been inside an LS2 (not yet, anyway) but, if they're anything like other V8s (and they are), the pushrods will lift out at that point since they're just riding on top of the lifter. Have you determined how the electrode got bent?


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Unless I take off the heads I will probably never know what happened to the plugs.

Over-revving (past redline)?
detonation?

Do the plugs hang just below the valves?


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

batmans said:


> So you just remove the valve covers and take off the rockers with a 6-point 8mm and the pushrods come right out?
> 
> Is there anything anchoring it on the bottom part of the push rod?
> 
> I'm new to this coming from the Rotary and VTEC world. LOL.


Yes just unbolt the rockers and the pushrods come right out.


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## GTOJer (Oct 20, 2006)

10mm socket to remove coils, 8mm to remove valve covers, 8mm to remove rockers. There is no lash adjustment. They are torqued to 22ft/lbs (might be 24, going off memory). Unbolt the rocker only if it is not under pressure. I will move the crank (24mm socket) until #1 exhaust valve just starts to move and undo the intake, rotate the engine following the firing order, undoing each intake. Then when the intake shuts, do the exhaust. Firing order is 1-8-7-2-6-5-4-3.

Pushrods will lift right out. You can test them with a homemade rig and a dial indicator, or the fast way is to roll them on a piece of glass.

Easy stuff.

edit: I reread your first post. You may still have a broken valve spring assuming you have duals installed. They can rotate and look good not leaving pieces scattered about although sometimes they will do that. Check each spring carefully with a strong light.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

So the push rods have been pulled out. But visually they look straight. I haven't done the glass test yet.

Since I have them pulled out, I've taken the liberty of ordering the these pushrods: Trick Flow Specialties TFS-21407400 - Trick Flow® Chromemoly Pushrods - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Someone mentioned that it might be valve lifters. What are the symptoms of a bad valve lifter? If they make a sound, what sorta sound?


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Would a bent pushrod like this cause that much noise?

Is it hitting something to make it tick?










This is what my engine sounds like (not my video):


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## GTOJer (Oct 20, 2006)

You have to think about what the lifter does. It converts the rotary motion of the cam into linear motion to the pushrod. The stock system puts approx .02 to .06 preload on the lifter. That is, the barrel of the lifter is compressed by that amount to absorb installation variations. The system oil flows into the lifter to provide this cushion hence the name, hydraulic lifter. (see the attached drawing). If the pushrod is bent, that preload goes away and there is a gap or play resulting in the noise you hear.
How do you bend a pushrod? PTV. Piston to valve. I am assuming you replaced the springs and pushrods to support the extra pressure coming from the F/I. Anytime you F/I, you should upgrade your springs because if you don't you radically lower the safe RPM the engine can spin to without PTV becoming an issue due to the increased pressure behind the valve. And of course, anytime you upgrade the springs you need to upgrade the pushrods as the stockers are not strong enough to support upgraded springs.
I have seen a lifter collapse and it caused a big racket, more than was in that video.
And yes, that is the sound of excessive clearance in the valve train.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

so a bent pushrod essentially shortens the length to create enough gap to start hitting the end points?

Is that where the ticking sound would originate from?


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## GTOJer (Oct 20, 2006)

Yes.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

would that damage rocker arms?


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## GTOJer (Oct 20, 2006)

It shouldn't but I have seen 3 stock rocker arms on 3 different setups have the bearings come apart. The clearance (ticking) would be essentially beating on the rocker bearing.


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

with 75K on the motor and still using the original plugs, I would start with a plug swap A.S.A.P. One bad plug will have you car firing on less then 8 cylinders and it will idle hard, stall, back fire and make all kinds of engine noises.


CHANGE THE PLUGS



I just read the entire thread from the start. If you have the push rods out. I would replace them and also do new springs at the same time and maybe even the lifters. with 75 K and forced induction, valve train parts can be just plain worn out


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

are the lifters located in the same area as the rocker arms?


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## HP11 (Apr 11, 2009)

No, the lifters are in the engine block.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

ugh..... i didn't really want to think about that.


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## HP11 (Apr 11, 2009)

Aw come on! That's fun stuff! Nothing to be afraid of. I used to be afraid of things like that.......about 40 years ago.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

I come from the world of RX7 - 3 moving parts in the engine.

This piston thing is mind boggling like some abstract art......


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## HP11 (Apr 11, 2009)

I came from the world of Datsun/Nissan. OHC 6 cylinders and OHC 4 cylinders with an occasional push rod 4 cylinder. It's all the same.......disassembly and reassembly.


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## danfigg (Sep 27, 2009)

*re*

almost sounds like spark arcing somewhere. Start it at night time or some where dark to see if you can see the arc. You could have a bad spark plug wire. If not it is definitely lifter pushrod rocker arm type noise judging by the speed of the tick upper end noise not lower end----danfigg


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

batmans said:


> I come from the world of RX7 - 3 moving parts in the engine.
> 
> This piston thing is mind boggling like some abstract art......


*ooh those burn lots of oil , In all honesty those wonderfully Lil engines, but only if you can keep the oiled and cooled 

But BTW I thought you had a jet engine in all your cars batman? *


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

I had Jet hot ceramic coating instead.

The FD was shooting out flames from Blue torch to yellow fire balls.

Was sooo fun.

dam i miss that car.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

The Trick Flow forged heat treated cro moly push rods have been replaced.

Tickin/clunking sound is still present.

Any ideas?


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

Wish we were closer to eachother so I can tell you whats going on with it. Is it coming from the bottom or the top end of the motor? Could be junk lifter, or you have exsessive play in you rod, main barrings or piston. Is it possable to throw a code reader on it to read your oil pressure. The knock sensor could be picking up engine noise that it can't compensate for and throwing a CEL:confused. A lifter could be junk and bleeding down not allowing the plunger to take up the slack.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

I'm already planning for the worse.

So the other day I started researching and came across Scat Crankshafts

Never head of them.

I talked to the guy there and he told me for $2400 I can get this:

1. Forged 6.6 liter stroker crankshaft
2. Forged Pistons
3. Forged H-Beam connecting rods

How much power will a 6.6 liters of displacement give me with stock cams an heads, but with a Maggie 112 and LT Headers, intake and full exhaust?

I'm currently making 514rwhp and 489rwtq. I could use a little more power in 4th gear and beyond.

The other question is will a stroker kit pass emissions at the tail pipe?


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

A stroker kit will deliver instant torque gains regardless of what you do. I'm guessing the biggest thing for you FI guys at that point is to move up to heads that offer larger valves... not as much the port polish part of it. L92 heads can help lower your C/R too.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

batmans said:


> I'm already planning for the worse.
> 
> So the other day I started researching and came across Scat Crankshafts
> 
> ...


The MP112 can't push enough air to support 6.6 liter(402ci) engine.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

good to know. I sorta figured that was the case.


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

So Batmans, what ended up being the final judgement? How is it running now? I was looking at a manual for one of my other cars and this was on the back page. I don't know if you got a look at the faulty plug or not.












If you have a wideband guage, what is it saying?


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Your timing is dam good.

I literally just got off the phone with Clarks Auto

they did a leak down test and it looks like something melted or broke free on a piston.

$2k for R&R the engine
$1k for the rebuild
And whatever parts I need to replace (pistons, rings, etc.)

Compression is 60.


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

That's pretty low. I wonder if you were running lean... it might explain a melt hole/hot spot on the piston. Did you ever get it tuned?


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

I never tuned it when I bought it.

It either had a standard Maggie reflashed ECU or might have been tuned on the lean side.

I suspect lean since it makes a little more RWHP than other GTO's with the same setup.

Once i get the GTO back i will definately have it hooked up to check the A/F ratios. 11.5~ is what I've been hearing as a good spot for 91 octane pump gas.


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## jpalamar (Jul 22, 2008)

batmans said:


> I never tuned it when I bought it.
> 
> It either had a standard Maggie reflashed ECU or might have been tuned on the lean side.
> 
> ...


I'm in the low 12s. But I'm not FI either though.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

is that at WOT?

At cruising, no load any idea as to what the GTO should be running? 14:7:1?


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

kywhitelightning said:


> I would look into an ignition fault. A blinking CEL usually means there is the potential for catalyst failure due to a cylinder or multiple cylinder misfires, which will pour raw fuel into the exhaust causing catalyst failure.
> 
> If you suspect mechanical failure, do a compression test. It will verify most mechanical faults.
> 
> ...


The answer was given to you over a month ago.

The mechanic you took the car to the first time was a ripoff. Why would you ever, and I mean ever, pull a broken spark plug out of a hole and not do a compression test while it is out? An additional 2 minutes to set it up is all it would've taken. I would suggest finding a new mechanic as this one likes your repeat business and obviously gives you half ass work for full price.

Jeff


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

jpalamar said:


> I'm in the low 12s. But I'm not FI either though.


Low 12's is a little rich but very safe at WOT in an NA. It can be pushed close to 13:1 for a little more power but why risk it.

Jeff


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

kywhitelightning said:


> The answer was given to you over a month ago.
> 
> The mechanic you took the car to the first time was a ripoff. Why would you ever, and I mean ever, pull a broken spark plug out of a hole and not do a compression test while it is out? An additional 2 minutes to set it up is all it would've taken. I would suggest finding a new mechanic as this one likes your repeat business and obviously gives you half ass work for full price.
> 
> Jeff


the GTO is at a new shop.

On the fine print of the quote there was verbage about no warranty for work on modified engines and/or power adders.

I have that.

So i'm telling the owner that he is a bit high on the R&R for the engine.

My mechanic that originally found the problem and another guy was quoting me $1200-$1500. the difference is enough to cover the forged pistons.

Also, he's trying to push me to lower compression pistons that is designed for the Maggie.

Would lowering the compression on the stock 5-6 psi make me lose power?

Also, how would that effect emissions? And what if I were to take the car back to N/A mode?

i just like to know what my options are instead of the mechanic telling me what he wants to see in my car........


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

batmans said:


> is that at WOT?
> 
> At cruising, no load any idea as to what the GTO should be running? 14:7:1?


Cruising at no load means no throttle which means full lean. The injectors are supposed to shut off with the throttle plate closed and the RPM's above idle. >19"HG

Idle 14.2:1 to 16.5:1 fluctuating constantly for switching O2's.(No load) >17"HG

Cruise 14:1 to 15:1 fluctuating for switching O2's.(Small load) 10-16"HG

Cruise 12.5:1 to 14:1 load dependant. (Mid load) 9-0"HG

Both idle and cruise should hover around 14.7:1 but should always fluctuate at small loads.

WOT boosted 11:1 to 11.5:1 on pump for max power. 0"HG or positive pressure.

WOT boosted with pump+W/M or the sweet smelly stuff 12:1 to 12.5:1 for max power. 0"HG or positive pressure.

Personally, if it's on the street it needs to be on the lower side of these as they are safer for daily driving. The best fuel economy can be had at the high end of all the above.

Hope this helps.

Jeff


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

batmans said:


> the GTO is at a new shop.
> 
> On the fine print of the quote there was verbage about no warranty for work on modified engines and/or power adders.
> 
> ...


Lowering the static compression is always a plus for a boosted ride. You can harness way more power from adding boost and more aggressive timing than to gain it from static compression. Boost makes compression raise and if you are already on the high side staticly, boosting only makes compression ignition worse.

Lowering compression will make the car more sluggish but like I said before, make it up with more boost. You may lose 20-30HP from lowering compression but running more boost pressure will make that up and some if your SC has enough flow left. You may also want to consider running a W/M pump on there for more octane. The more octane you have the less likely you are to have detonation issues, which you have already seen the ugly face of.

If you are worried about emissions you may want to consider reverting back to stock and leave the aftermarket world alone, this includes stock compression. The new mechanic's suggestion seems sound as the new pistons were designed for your SC.

Jeff


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

batmans said:


> Your timing is dam good.
> 
> I literally just got off the phone with Clarks Auto
> 
> ...


Your engine was too lean for that to happen. Who ever tuned it tuned it on the lean side for max power and didn't tune it to be safe. Stock maggie tunes are on the rich side. That explains why your gas mileage was so high. Sorry to say this but I think someone had told you awhile back that you might be running on the lean side when you was talking about your MPG.


batmans said:


> the GTO is at a new shop.
> 
> On the fine print of the quote there was verbage about no warranty for work on modified engines and/or power adders.
> 
> ...


I advise you to talk to a good tuner/performance shop that will tune your car about your situation. You will lose power if you lower your compression, thats a given. A tuner will tune your car to be safe and pass emissions, depending on how your car is set up. If youput your car back to N/A you'll need all the stock parts the Maggie replaced and you'll still need a good tuner to tune your car.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Could I maintain the stock compression and run a 11.5:1 A/F ration and be safe with the 112 Maggie?


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

I like to duplicate the C6 ZR-1 in terms of boost and compression ratio.

9.1:1 consider safe for 10.5 psi with the Maggie 112?

Or should I be asking what is the ideal boost that I should be searching for on the 112?

I'm trying to reach close to 600rwhp.

At what power levels should I consider H-beam connecting rods? The shop said that my connecting rods won't need to be upgraded with my current 514rwhp.


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## 87GN06GTO07IRL (Aug 10, 2009)

batmans said:


> $2k for R&R the engine $1k for the rebuild


Thats a good price for the rebuild. I think your getting raped on the r+r! come to my drive way i ll r+r for 500. unless you did a 4 wheel drive conversion (lol) these things come out and go back in fairly quick. im not sure of the book time but they must be charging like 250 an hour for that. id ask them what book time is cause that seems way too high. my boss would love me if i could sell an r+r for that much.


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

batmans said:


> Could I maintain the stock compression and run a 11.5:1 A/F ration and be safe with the 112 Maggie?


Lower the compression a little and run more boost. 9.1:1 should be OK as long as you are running high octane fuel. At 10.5psi you should be right around 15.5:1 Final compression ratio.

Read this article as it has some great info.

MotorSports Digest

Jeff


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

That's good reading.

What psi would be safe for 10:1 compression ratio?

I'm trying to find a good balance where I am right at the maximum efficiency of the Maggie 112 and compression ratio.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Which piston should I get?

There are sooooo many choices.

Pistons - SummitRacing.com

Also, what connecting rods would you recommend?

I know I want forged pistons, but there are the flat-top vs. dished choices and the various alloys.


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

batmans said:


> That's good reading.
> 
> What psi would be safe for 10:1 compression ratio?
> 
> I'm trying to find a good balance where I am right at the maximum efficiency of the Maggie 112 and compression ratio.


That article gives you a formula for final compression ratio and it explains the reason for lowering the static CR. Safety of the engine is ultimately up to the end user. It all depends on what type of fuel you like to purchase. If you're a only 91-93 octane kind person then obviously you're not ready to reach the maximum efficiency of anything. If you're prepared to run race gas in every tank, then go for broke and see what that charger is made of. If you are running off of flash tuning and don't reflash yourself, then whatever you set your tune for is what fuel you should always use.

The final CR on my little import is 20.5:1 and I run pump 93+W/M, just as an example. My engine would not survive without W/M.



batmans said:


> Which piston should I get?
> 
> There are sooooo many choices.
> 
> ...


Flat tops are going to give you high static compression while dished pistons will lower the static compression. You need to read the piston head volume for selecting your pistons. Whatever your head volume is now just add the piston head volume from the Summit pistons of choice to get your total combustion chamber volume and use that to get your static compression ratio.

Jeff


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## jpalamar (Jul 22, 2008)

Isn't the Maggie designed to run a a stock motor safely and be emmissions friendly? I wouldn't think you would need to really change anything internal for it, even if you were to swap pullies I would think a tune alone would be fine.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Yes, but since I'm going to tear down the engine and rebuild, I was thinking of squeezing a little more HP.

At least that will help me feel a little better about spending $5k~.


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

Emissions friendly really is something that comes down to proper tuning. I currently am running 35% larger injectors on my Mitsu and it still can be emissions friendly. I would just have to reinstall the cats.

Jeff


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

*I like this thread  nice and helpful*

*Witch will net better Gas millages with a medium tune? Turbo or Supercharger?*


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

MJGTOWISH said:


> *I like this thread  nice and helpful*
> 
> *Witch will net better Gas millages with a medium tune? Turbo or Supercharger?*


What's a medium tune? You mean a safe tune, I think.

The turbocharger hands down. 

The supercharger robs the engine of power to make power while the turbo just uses wasted exhaust to make boost. Boost is free for the life of the turbo. The SC uses power which uses more fuel and nitrous costs money too.

Turbocharging FTMFW!!!

Jeff


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

batmans said:


> Could I maintain the stock compression and run a 11.5:1 A/F ration and be safe with the 112 Maggie?


Yes you can, you will loose a little bit of power but it will allow you to squeeze alittle more boost without the use of meth. Stock LS2 compression is 10.9:1. 


batmans said:


> I like to duplicate the C6 ZR-1 in terms of boost and compression ratio.
> 
> 9.1:1 consider safe for 10.5 psi with the Maggie 112?
> 
> ...


Good luck with that. The ZR1 uses a blower R2300 that is alot bigger and more efficient than the MP112. The maggies are positive displacement blowers they create boost by engine restrictions. Anytime you make the engine more efficient, lower the compression ratio, cam, headers, CI, ect. the boost goes down. Does not nessclry mean the power goes down, if you want that type of boost witch is illrelevant to power you have to spin the blower faster. Spinning the blower faster makes the blower alittle more less efficent. Getting 10.5 psi out of a MP112 on 10.9 compression is not the same as 10.5 out of 9.1 C/R. Most likely you'll be blowing alot of hot air. I'm not saying it can't be done. For example stock LS2 maggies come with 2.8" pulley and the LS1 Maggies come with 2.9" pulley to reach the 6.5psi goal. I have yet to see MP112 Maggies get much above 550rwhp, thats with cam and heads. If you want 600rwhp get a bigger supercharger.

Boost is addictive I would upgrade the conrods and pistons if you decide to upgrade the supercharger in the future. There is a guy on the other forum with 600+rwhp/rwtq on stock LS1 bottom end with some damn good tuning. Thats with MP122 H/C car!


jpalamar said:


> Isn't the Maggie designed to run a a stock motor safely and be emmissions friendly? I wouldn't think you would need to really change anything internal for it, even if you were to swap pullies I would think a tune alone would be fine.


Yes.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Just to double check, the LS2 stock compression ratio is 10.9:1 right?

How much more boost can I squeeze outta the 112? Can i un 7-8psi?

Also I think it has the 42lbs injectors, being one of the earlier 112.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

batmans said:


> Just to double check, the LS2 stock compression ratio is 10.9:1 right?
> 
> How much more boost can I squeeze outta the 112? Can i un 7-8psi?
> 
> Also I think it has the 42lbs injectors, being one of the earlier 112.


Sorry about that I was posting early. Yes the stock compression is 10.9:1. You can get 7-8psi out of the maggie that might require a 2.6" pulley, it depends on your mods. Is your fuel pump stock? You may have to look into getting a aftermarket pump. Also if your going into the engine, I suggest that you get a cam to help out FI. If you can afford it.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

The thing with cam is that from what I have seen and heard around here is that they are a bitch to tune to pass the sniffer. 

I have probably another year or maybe 2 until I need to have the GTO smogged.

Do I need to swap out the rear pulley of the Maggie or just the front?

I'm assuming that my fuel pump is stock. Which pump would u recommend?


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

batmans said:


> The thing with cam is that from what I have seen and heard around here is that they are a bitch to tune to pass the sniffer.
> 
> I have probably another year or maybe 2 until I need to have the GTO smogged.
> 
> ...


Thats not a true statement about cams. Big cams with tight LSA's are, but a cam that is for a positive displacement blower likes wide LSA's. The overlap is the biggest factor in effecting emissions. A tuner can tune your car to pass and be safe also. Also there is some guys that are knowlagable in building custom grinds cams that will suite your needs. *svede1212* have thrown a name in the past about a good cam guy.
You can swap only the front pulley on the maggie. Most people swap the rear to a 1:1 rear and a bigger 3.0" pulley in the front and work their way down. Most of the reasons for that it prevent belt slippage in the front. I think *6QTS11OZ* has a 2.6" or 2.5" on his maggie without any slippage. For fuel pumps most people use the Walbol 255 from Lingenfelter Lingenfelter Performance Engineering: Fuel Pumps & Filters , they have a GTO kit for us. Also talk to *6QTS11OZ* about this one also.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

how much power does a smog legal cam make with stock maggie boost and compression with a 11.5:1 a/f ratio?

If i can hit 550rwhp I would be more than happy. But anything above the 500rwhp mark is good enough.

I'm just afraid of breaking other things like drivetrain past the 550rwhp mark


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

batmans said:


> how much power does a smog legal cam make with stock maggie boost and compression with a 11.5:1 a/f ratio?
> 
> If i can hit 550rwhp I would be more than happy. But anything above the 500rwhp mark is good enough.
> 
> I'm just afraid of breaking other things like drivetrain past the 550rwhp mark


Hard to say, a cam can be worth 25+hp. You know what the saying is you got to pay to play. I'm carefull how I drive my car because I will break something in my drivetrain and that will most likely be my driveshaft. One day that I can afford a beefer driveshaft I'm going to stick one in.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

i wouldn't be worried about just the driveshaft.

Sometime last year, the tranny broke, locked up while the car was still moving at 25mph and literally riped out the supporting bracket that the driveshaft runs through. it pulled it right outta the floor board.

Good thing the GMPP picked up the bill for $12k. I paid $500 to have the body shop to weld a new drive shaft bracket.

it was a loud bang that made my ears ring.

My dad was with me and ever since will refuse to be in the car with me.

He said no thanks, he'll stick with Toyota and Benz.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

Our drivetrains are not the strongest out there expecally the 04's. At some point they will break, there is alot of variables some fail sooner than others.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

All of my racing were from rolling starts.

That tends to make the drivetrain last longer as oppose to speed shifting and dropping the clutch.


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

kywhitelightning said:


> What's a medium tune? You mean a safe tune, I think.
> 
> The turbocharger hands down.
> 
> ...


*I meant ''Mild'' I know that a safe tune would have it running kinda of rich.... thats what i allways thought.... what about all motor (bored and sleved LS3 @ 440ci) Vs. Turbo?

I know i shouldn't worry about it but 10 miles to the gallon would really suck for a DD summer car*


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

MJGTOWISH said:


> *I meant ''Mild'' I know that a safe tune would have it running kinda of rich.... thats what i allways thought.... what about all motor (bored and sleved LS3 @ 440ci) Vs. Turbo?
> 
> I know i shouldn't worry about it but 10 miles to the gallon would really suck for a DD summer car*


While not in boost you should get better milage because you should be running less CI. In boost, that's a different story. Turbo cars run a much higher BSFC than NA cars. Stay out of boost and keep great fuel economy. You'll be feeding that large CID all the time.

The turbo car might cost more in the beginning to put together.

Weigh your options. Me personally, turbocharging is the only way to go. The dynamic feel is priceless.

Jeff


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

I might have gone with a STS turbo for the GTO if it wasn't Maggied to begin with.

But there is just something sooo addictive about that Maggie's instant, no lag POW!.

it just explodes with power without winding things up and dropping the clutch.

Most of the time I just spin the tires in 1st - 2nd to show the other cars what they are up against...


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

kywhitelightning said:


> While not in boost you should get better milage because you should be running less CI. In boost, that's a different story. Turbo cars run a much higher BSFC than NA cars. Stay out of boost and keep great fuel economy. You'll be feeding that large CID all the time.
> 
> The turbo car might cost more in the beginning to put together.
> Dude are you nuts? Turn that around....
> ...


12356


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

MJGTOWISH said:


> 12356


Sounds like turbocharging is the way to go for you then for sure.

Is this $12400 installed? Is that price including supporting mods? That's #@*%ing insane!! I have less than that in my import build and it is putting out ~600 at the crank with 181 CID(~$11000 in all mods including pretty mods like wheels and tires).

Jeff


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

*thats not the price LOL i jsut that there so i could post*


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

I've been wondering... since the Maggie has a bypass valve, how much boost does it show on the highway with the cruise on? They claim it uses 1/3hp cruising at 60.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Poncho Dan said:


> I've been wondering... since the Maggie has a bypass valve, how much boost does it show on the highway with the cruise on? *They claim it uses 1/3hp cruising at 60.*


1/3 the engine's HP? Or 1/3HP?


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Rukee said:


> 1/3 the engine's HP? Or 1/3HP?


it just uses 1/3HP to power it at 65MPH.

I suspect turbo's lose more HP pushing the turbine blades at 100k RPMs from exhaust gases......


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

There is no power loss that way with a turbo. Exhaust flow exiting the head is the driving force for the turbo. Run the exhaust gas into a muffler or a turbo, it doesn't care. The only way a turbo would rob power is if it's the wrong size and either restricting the exhaust, or over sized and not able to make boost.


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

Rukee said:


> There is no power loss that way with a turbo. Exhaust flow exiting the head is the driving force for the turbo. Run the exhaust gas into a muffler or a turbo, it doesn't care. The only way a turbo would rob power is if it's the wrong size and either restricting the exhaust, or over sized and not able to make boost.


Excellent post!! I'll say it again turbocharging FTMFW!!! No loss if done properly as explained by Rukee.

Jeff


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

Turbos add a crapload of extra plumbing under the hood, especially if they're intercooled. That's really the only thing that turns me off to them. I like my underhood space.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

that sounds like a good excuse to tell border patrol if they ask you to pop the hood to check for illegals in the engine bay......


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

#1 and #3 cylinder had piston tops that cracked off and the bits bounced around in there. 

The machine shop said that they can repair the heads (weld, ground, resurface, etc.)

#1 piston started to crack.

the rest of the engine is fine and to specs.

What do you think happened?

Sorry for the Black berry photos.....


#1 piston



















#3 piston


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

*Detonation.........

OR

Valve Slap......

Both are very bad...... *


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Valves look good.

BTW, are the stock valves Stainless steel?

I heard Manley makes some trick valves that flow better.

What are good springs?


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

batmans said:


> What are good springs?


Ones that are matched to your cam.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

The shop that is rebuilding my LS2 is pushing me towards cams since he feels that it will really wake up the engine.

Pros and Cons?

Who makes good cams?

And YES, I do live in Kalifornia and it needs to be smog legal.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

batmans said:


> The shop that is rebuilding my LS2 is pushing me towards cams since he feels that it will really wake up the engine.
> 
> Pros and Cons?
> 
> ...


Just curious, why are you not asking the shop that's rebuilding the engine these questions? I meen all things are relavent when picking a cam, bore/stroke/head cc/intake/exhaust system/your blower, and he's right there doing the work on the engine.....


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Rukee said:


> Just curious, why are you not asking the shop that's rebuilding the engine these questions? I meen all things are relavent when picking a cam, bore/stroke/head cc/intake/exhaust system/your blower, and he's right there doing the work on the engine.....


I have asked them, but they really don't have much knowledge base on later model cars with power adders.

Most of what they do are all engine applications.


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

You gotta find someone that's familiar and comfortable with LS motors... I figure any Vette shop would be your best bet. I would say go to one of those guys for a tune when they're done reassembling your motor.

Those piston pictures you posted are nasty. I'm still sticking with my assumption that you had a lean condition. Lean = hot fire = hot pistons = weakened pistons. Whoever tuned it was probably trying to squeak out as much hp as possible, or cut corners (I hear FI applications are better off with speed density tunes for some reason).

My plan is to build a 404 stroker w/ forged rotating assembly, especially if I have to go into the motor for any kind of repair. I was initially going to go N/A and use a BIG intake manifold, but now I'm wondering if I shouldn't just get a Maggie 122 since everything in the block will be beefed up. This thread has had me thinking about this and the subject of FI for a while.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

The sound of the Maggie is like Herion.

I just can't get enough.

That and the X-pipe.


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

Poncho Dan said:


> You gotta find someone that's familiar and comfortable with LS motors... I figure any Vette shop would be your best bet. I would say go to one of those guys for a tune when they're done reassembling your motor.
> 
> Those piston pictures you posted are nasty. I'm still sticking with my assumption that you had a lean condition. Lean = hot fire = hot pistons = weakened pistons. Whoever tuned it was probably trying to squeak out as much hp as possible, or cut corners (I hear FI applications are better off with speed density tunes for some reason).
> 
> My plan is to build a 404 stroker w/ forged rotating assembly, especially if I have to go into the motor for any kind of repair. I was initially going to go N/A and use a BIG intake manifold, but now I'm wondering if I shouldn't just get a Maggie 122 since everything in the block will be beefed up. This thread has had me thinking about this and the subject of FI for a while.


*You too huh? I'm doing the same but I want peak power at 7500 RPM and it gonna be cheap......

and screw maggie...... give me the blower form the LS9 SC or turbos or all motor...*


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

Maggies build HUGE tq at low R's.






Granted those are flywheel numbers, but still, those are numbers that deliver. For some reason they're using LS1 heads...


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Those #s are sick!!


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Poncho Dan said:


> Maggies build HUGE tq at low R's.....


Amen.

I have the opposite problem with virtually all the stock cars on the streets.

Instead of worrying about building up power and dumping the clutch, I have to ease on the gas pedal.

With the Maggie it's like a wild animal and I love it.

They should call it Cocaine Supercharger.....


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

batmans said:


> The shop that is rebuilding my LS2 is pushing me towards cams since he feels that it will really wake up the engine.
> 
> Pros and Cons?
> 
> ...


A good cam will really wake up your motor and help that LS2 to do what it was ment to do. MAKE POWER. When picking a cam it is always best to get one that is designed to work with what you have so usually a Custom Grind cam is the way to go. You don't need a huge cam to make big power either . Very big cams can be a bitch to tune and not very street friendly. The cam in my car is massive and the shop that installed it could not tune my car. It would stall, buck, not idle and just ran like crap. Found a second shop and they worked wonders with it. It is now a real pleasure to drive.

By the way, if your car is an A/4, a torque converter is a must have item when you do a cam.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

When people say a good cam will "wake up" the LS2, what does that quantify in HP/TQ?

From what I have heard, it's just 25RWHP - smog legal.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Here's a short list of the parts that I've selected:
I've found some good info to get me up to speed from a high level here: Piston FAQ: Read if you are thinking about buying them! - NASIOC

Here is the short list of the parts that I'm considering:

If you prior experience or knowledge, please feel free to chime in:










Here's the short list of the parts that I've narrowed it down to:

Ferrea Racing Components

Alot of the 1200rwhp Supra guys and other really high HP car and bike guys have said nothing but wonderful things about these valves.

Unlike other valves that machine the undercut portion, these guys press the neck down so that it preserves the grain. 

If the piston were to hit the valves, they tend to bend instead of breaking loose since their alloys have memory.

For the intake valve he recommended hollow stem valves which are 22% lighter. For the Exhaust valve he recommends solid stem (due to the heat)

Connecting rods:

I've heard good things about Crower connecting rods, but some of the Supra guys have had terrible customer service with some defective parts from Crower.

http://crower.com/misc/catalog/2010/m_cat-rods.shtml

I'm still considering Manley for the connecting rods as well as Scat. But need to avoid the chinese made ones if I can. However, both Manley and Scat seem to have good reputation on their quality control and it might be a moot point.

Search Results for connecting rods - SummitRacing.com

Moly coated rod bearings:
Rod Bearings - SummitRacing.com

2618 Forged pistons. This is the stronger of the 2 common used piston materials. the other is a 4032. The only problem of the 2618 piston is that there is more piston slap until the piston gets up to operating temps.

Manley - Pistons - SummitRacing.com

The Manley platinum pistons are USA made. Some of their lower end stuff as well as the other more affordable components are made in China.

http://www.manleyperformance.com/dl/2010/pistons.pdf

I'm still researching on the valve springs but Ferrea's "beehive" and Manley's Nextek dual springs. Not sure about titanium retainers vs. tool steel retainers. light weight vs.long wear.


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## jpalamar (Jul 22, 2008)

batmans said:


> When people say a good cam will "wake up" the LS2, what does that quantify in HP/TQ?
> 
> From what I have heard, it's just 25RWHP - smog legal.


I think the tune has more to do with passing smog tests then a cam. Any car tuned to run effecient will burn everything it needs to. I'll post my emissions test tomorrow showing you I passed with 243 heads, small, cam, catless ect....


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

California emission machines are designed to fail cars so you buy a Prius.

Unless the car is AWD, all cars are subjected to a dyno smog machine that puts the car under load.


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

batmans said:


> California emission machines are designed to fail cars so you buy a Prius.
> 
> Unless the car is AWD, all cars are subjected to a dyno smog machine that puts the car under load.


Really, emission test centers don't have an AWD dyno in Cali. With the increased popularity of AWD among SUV's especially, I would figure them to be a prime focus for the IM 240. I love KY as there are no emission tests in my general area(this includes Metro Louisville). My cats are on the shelf ready to be reinstalled if the day ever comes and as stated earlier, the tune is what will for the most part get you through the test.

Jeff


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

The blue grass helps clean the air 

KFC tastes better in KY too.....


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

jpalamar said:


> I think the tune has more to do with passing smog tests then a cam. Any car tuned to run effecient will burn everything it needs to. I'll post my emissions test tomorrow showing you I passed with 243 heads, small, cam, catless ect....


If you have too much overlap it would be hard to tune for emissions. You can only go so big on the cam, then it would be hard to tune for emissions. It is a combination between cam and tune. California emissons testing is performed at slow engine speeds in incraments idle, 15mph then 25mph.


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

batmans said:


> The blue grass helps clean the air
> 
> KFC tastes better in KY too.....


:cheers


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

I'm glad all I have to do to snake the sniffer is keep the thing registered up north. Granted they just plug into the OBDII port, however, your average government-paid tool has no idea how to drive stick. I've seen those guys be extremely abusive to cars in the past... I remember failing a test once in my '83 Parisienne simply because they put it in 3rd, not Drive... and that was an automagic!


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

My shop told me that there has been some reports of LSx heads cracking.

Is this the case with the LS2?


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

I've never heard that before.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

batmans said:


> My shop told me that there has been some reports of LSx heads cracking.
> 
> Is this the case with the LS2?


Thats new to me.


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

*BS flag, First Are the even LSX heads? I know there is an LSX Engine block which happens to be the ONLY Iron LS block. Next did he mean LS/1/2/3/6/9 ? If so he should have said LS heads cracking.....

Third Find another Shop.*


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

I'm stuck at this shop. It was one of the mechanics that noticed a stamp on the cast where he said that there was some earlier heads cracking.


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## jpalamar (Jul 22, 2008)

I've head of them warping for overheating... but that isn't any different then any other alumium head. Cracking is news to me. I would check over at LS1tech.com and see what they say about it too.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Looks like I'm going with Wiseco.

Here are the specs:

Bore Size 4.005

Compresion Highth 1.3045

Dish -3.2cc

Stroke 3.622

Rod 6.125

Compression ratio will be lowered to 10.5

Anything that looks misplaced?


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

jpalamar said:


> I've head of them warping for overheating... but that isn't any different then any other alumium head. Cracking is news to me. I would check over at LS1tech.com and see what they say about it too.


That shouldn't be the case with all aluminum motors. Aluminum heads warp when they're attached to a cast iron block, and in an overheat condition (i.e. blown head gasket), the two materials expand and contract at different rates, while being bolted together.


Batmans, what main caps are you using? Are you re-using the old caps, or are you getting new ones? Same crank?


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

I haven't thought about the main caps. Any recommendation?

Aren't they included with the connecting rods?

For 700HP to the crank is Scat connecting rods suffice? Is Lunati overkill?

Crank will be the same since just about everyone i talked to say they factory LS2 crank can handle 1000hp.


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

I'm not really sure about the rods... I would say if they're forged, sure. As for the caps I meant main bearing caps, but if you're keeping the stock crank, it's probably best to leave those alone. LS7 main caps are forged steel... I'm not sure if they'd fit though.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Is $1000 shipped for a new set of Lunati rods (rated at 1100HP) with brand new Wiseco 2618 forged pistons (pins and rings included) a good deal?

4340 I-Beam Rod Set - LS1 LS2 LS6 6.125 - Lunati Power


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

I'm getting ready to order valves/springs and retainers for the LS2.

When I called Ferrea, they didn't have valves for it. Do the LS6 or LS1 have the same valves?


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## jpalamar (Jul 22, 2008)

^no. I'm not sure of the specifics but I know the LS6 exhaust valves have some kind of material that is better heat reduction or something. Not sure if it is something worth paying extra for or not. Not sure of sizes either.


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

*IF you need new Caps get the ones from KAtech billet... **** strong*


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

jpalamar said:


> ^no. I'm not sure of the specifics but I know the LS6 exhaust valves have some kind of material that is better heat reduction or something. Not sure if it is something worth paying extra for or not. Not sure of sizes either.


i think it's sodium filled.

The Supra guys that make over 1000RWHP mostly use the Ferrea valves since it bends instead of break.

That's important if in case the piston and valve kiss from mis shifting........


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

For my goal of 650HP~700HP at the crank, I'm still undecided on upgrading the factory connecting rods.

My shop tells me that they are fine for that sorta HP goal. 

Other searches on various LSx sites/boards seem to indicate that the factory ones can handle that sorta power such as this one:

Long term effects on motor from nitrous? - Page 2 - SmokinVette.com Forums

".........My car made around 700 crank HP for 30,000 miles before one of the piston ring lands broke. I was pushing 11PSI of boost into it via a Vortech. It had 65000 miles when the engine broke too.

My friend Greg's car made 730REAR WHEEL (around 800 crank) horsepower for 13,000 miles before a piston cracked. He was running circa 15PSI into his engine via a Paxton with Methanol Injection. His car broke after 14 back to back pulls to 170+ MPH on an airport.

Mr.Big's car is now making over 900CRANK HP (low 800s at the tires). He runs a Procharger with methanol injection and Nitrous. His car has over 30,000 miles, but spent the first 12000 at lower boost, making "only" 630 rear wheel hp. He runs the Texas Mile and sustains full throttle for one mile at a time at those power levels. The only thing that has broken on his car was the supercharger bearings themselves, not the engine.

ALL OF THOSE CARS HAD COMPLETELY BONE STOCK LS2 ENGINES

Good thing no one told us the rods were only good to 500HP ?

Connecting rod load is mostly a function of engine RPM; doubling the horsepower of an engine adds relatively little load to the rod since peak combustion pressure occurs as the piston is already moving down and away from the chamber, and if you look at highly modded cars making large amounts of horsepower through the stock engine block, when they fail, it is almost always at the piston rings or ringlands; the factory hypereutectic cast pistons are the weak link. Connecting rods will bend or break most often when the engine is mechanicaly over reved, which is obviously not a HP issue."

I need to confirm if GKN did make the factory connecting rods and if so, what they are rated at in terms of power limits.










It seems that upgrading the factory grade 10.9 bolts to an ARP2000 is all I need since that is that is the weak link.

Any thoughts? experiences?


----------



## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

I don't have first hand experience to offer you, but IMO if you have the couple extra bucks to spend, don't cut corners on anything... go full forged 100% for the rotating assembly. Better to over-engineer and have the motor last 200K miles than under-engineer and have it last 30k. Personally, this is what I will be doing with my build. I'm not sure about the main caps yet, but I'd like to lay down 600+ area RWHP and have the thing last me twenty years trouble-free. Someone please feel free to step in here and tell me I'm wrong if you believe that's an unrealistic goal. I'd rather spend money on longevity than temporary power.


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

batmans said:


> Connecting rod load is mostly a function of engine RPM; doubling the horsepower of an engine adds relatively little load to the rod since peak combustion pressure occurs as the piston is already moving down and away from the chamber, and if you look at highly modded cars making large amounts of horsepower through the stock engine block, when they fail, it is almost always at the piston rings or ringlands; the factory hypereutectic cast pistons are the weak link. Connecting rods will bend or break most often when the engine is mechanicaly over reved, which is obviously not a HP issue."
> 
> I need to confirm if GKN did make the factory connecting rods and if so, what they are rated at in terms of power limits.
> 
> ...


On that quote above. Wouldn't doubling HP increase effective torque as HP is the equivalent of TQ*RPM/5252? More torque would put more pressure from the top of the rod to the crank, causing bent or broken rods. Increasing RPM would put the strain on the rod cap bolts because of inertia, causing the rod caps to pull away from the rods at the bottom of the intake and power stroke and at the top of the exhaust stroke. Pistons break because they are not made for the increased cylinder pressure and heat created by FI. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this guy is full of crap.

A 10.9 graded fastener is tough. What are ARP's bolt ratings? 12.0? Anybody try using studs instead of bolts? A better torque measurement is achieved with them, correct?

Good research though batmans. I will be looking to push the limits of stock components as well(someday when I get my GTO).

Jeff


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

I spoke with a rep at American Cranks, Forged Racing Crankshafts, Forged Rods, Direct Lube Lifters and More at Howards Cams and he said that connecting rods typically break when the engine is over revved, detonation.

He said that it's really not the HP that is the concern.

BTW, their connecting rods are over $900 bucks.

I think I'll stick with the factory rods.

I spoke to one of the engineers at GKN and he didn't want to release info on any of their numbers ratings for the connecting rods.


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## The Popo (Feb 9, 2010)

Way too much to read! Batmans, did you find out what happened? Let me tell you a little story about my "tick, tick, tck" noise. 

Im doing my burnout at the rack, in my 05 GTO A4 Procharged, and I feel and hear the engine start to knock. Holly sh*t batman! Something just happened! I pull off the track and pull my plugs, all of them. I see that cylinder 5 hit the plug and broke it. No problem, i'll just replace it and so I did. Wait a tick, I know I hear a ticking noise. What could it be? I drove back from Orlando with the noise, 140 miles. I then start asking everyone I know what the "tick" could be. I hear all the same oppinions as here. So, I decided to see for myself and I pulled the driver side head off. Low and behold look at what I found:










Yup, my piston broke. Well, now in my infinate wisdom, I decide to build bigger and better. I am now building a 408 Stroker with cam, and head work. Crap this turned out to be extemely costly!!

Popo :shutme :seeya:


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Same with me, my pistons "snap, crackled, pop" 

Last week my Wiseco pistons that are ceramic coated on the piston face for detonation reduction and increased thermo efficiencies with side skirt coated Moly was just delivered to the shop.

The heads were just finished with ceramic coating and that should be here by the end of this week or early next week. And I should have the car back in about a week from them receiving the heads

I'm getting 6000 series Ferrea valves with undercut.

Stock LS2 connecting rods that are powdered forged sintered from the factor will be retained since I don't lan on going past 700HP. It seems that from my research the stock LS2 connecting rods will start to bend at 850HP and snap at 900HP+.

Certainly more than what my Maggie 112 can do, but most importantly that is not streetable - not to mention the other weak links that will break (ie- drivetrain).

Dam, I miss the GTO even though I've been driving the NSX.


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## The Popo (Feb 9, 2010)

batmans said:


> Same with me, my pistons "snap, crackled, pop"
> 
> 
> Dam, I miss the GTO even though I've been driving the NSX.


I miss my Goat as well. For now i'm setteling on driving an 06 LMB Corvette Vert. Not as fun, but damn nice. :cheers


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

I've been outta my Goat for over 2 months.

Dam. I miss her so much to the point that GTO guys in my area feel awkward when I stare at their GTOs while I'm in the NSX............


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

I just got off the phone with my shop and they told me that the Wiseco pistons that I ordered (part number K398X05) is a .927 wrist pin and my LS2 connecting rods require a .943 size.

I was under the impression that LSx wrist pins are .927.

Did I get a fluke connecting rod?


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

If I have to get after market connecting rods how would you rate them from best to worse? 

1. Callies Compstar
2. Eagle Specialty
3. Lunati
4. Scat


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

batmans said:


> If I have to get after market connecting rods how would you rate them from best to worse?
> 
> 1. Callies Compstar
> 2. Eagle Specialty
> ...


Honestly I don't think anyone can rate them as best to worse because it will probably be based on personal preference. I replaced my stock ones with Manley rods that I got from Lingenfelter when I ordered my forged Mahle pistons. Are Manley rods better or worse, I don't know. But at the time I just wanted forged rods and I chose those. Even with the Mahle pistons, I chose them just to have a set of forged pistons even though a lot of guys out there swear on Diamond pistons. Come to find out after I bought them that NASCAR cup cars, Formula 1 and team Audi (LMP1 prototypes) and I guess others in the American LeMans Series use Mahle pistons. I guess that accounts for something as far as them being a good product. Anyway, you probably won't go bad with either choice. With internal engine components they don't normally fail on their own. There usually is something that aids in the failure such as a crappy tune, cooling system failure, over-revving/missed shift, etc.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

OK. Looks like I'll be ordering the Scat Rods with ARP2000 and rated at 1000HP for $515 +$22 for S/H.

But before I do that does anyone know if the stock deck height is 9.240 or 9.213? And should I get a 6.100 or 6.125 rod length?


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

batmans said:


> OK. Looks like I'll be ordering the Scat Rods with ARP2000 and rated at 1000HP for $515 +$22 for S/H.
> 
> But before I do that does anyone know if the stock deck height is 9.240 or 9.213? And should I get a 6.100 or 6.125 rod length?


6.125"

Are you building your engine yourself? If not, your engine builder should know exactly what you will need.


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## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

The Popo said:


> Way too much to read! Batmans, did you find out what happened? Let me tell you a little story about my "tick, tick, tck" noise.
> 
> Im doing my burnout at the rack, in my 05 GTO A4 Procharged, and I feel and hear the engine start to knock. Holly sh*t batman! Something just happened! I pull off the track and pull my plugs, all of them. I see that cylinder 5 hit the plug and broke it. No problem, i'll just replace it and so I did. Wait a tick, I know I hear a ticking noise. What could it be? I drove back from Orlando with the noise, 140 miles. I then start asking everyone I know what the "tick" could be. I hear all the same oppinions as here. So, I decided to see for myself and I pulled the driver side head off. Low and behold look at what I found:
> 
> ...


Was that #7 (back one)?


----------



## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

The last part I need to consider are the valve springs.

Will the stock beehive ones suffice with my aftermarket Ferrea valves?

Or should I get aftermarket ones? If so who makes good valves?

Titanium or tool steel retainers?


----------



## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

OK, Just got off the phone with Ferrea and got all the part numbers and list price for the beehive springs, tool steel retainers, spring base and keepers. It's $400~

Another thing is my friend suggested that to seat the valves, is to have them adjusted slightly loose, even to the point of ticking. A slightly loose adjustment can't hurt anything, but a slightly over-adjusted valve can pull off of the valve seat and in some cases, can burn a new valve. Even new high performance valves, hard as they are, bend and conform to valve seats. they can be re-adjusted after initial break-in.

He said that Comp Cams 1.82:1, rockers sell for about $450~ a set. The stiffer, higher quality springs and roller rockers, will decrease the possibility of valve bounce at higher engine speeds, enabling my engine to safely rev higher under boost. The Comp Cams rockers will also give my cam a small increase in lift and duration, further improving the effectiveness of the cam. 

Any thoughts?


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

I just got a call and my GTO may be done this week.

I've taken some good pics of the engine parts at various stages of assembly.

Dam. I'm so excited and I can not hide it.....


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Something interesting just came up.

While they were checking all the wiring, they noticed that the tab that was holding the knock sensor wire was busted.

Subsequently the wire was resting on the exhaust and melted.

They think that this may have caused or contributed to detonation.

Any thoughts if this is the case?


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

batmans said:


> Something interesting just came up.
> 
> While they were checking all the wiring, they noticed that the tab that was holding the knock sensor wire was busted.
> 
> ...


*BAM smoking gun....

Hell if the knock sensor was working, when your engine was running to lean and knocking the PCM would have adjusted the AFR to keep this from happening. But because it was not BOOM

Although i must say u kinda have to blame your self, if your car was knocking enough to evidently lead to detonation you should have noticed this...*


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Well, with my loud setup, it's hard to hear the Kaboom....


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

I think I need to drain the gasoline that was sitting in the GTO for 5 months since the octane probably dropped enough points to contribute to my pinging....


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

batmans said:


> I think I need to drain the gasoline that was sitting in the GTO for 5 months since the octane probably dropped enough points to contribute to my pinging....


meh throw some ocane boster in there and run it...


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Yesterday, I tried to start the GTO up in the driveway and it made a sound as if it was rubbing against something with resistance and the car gradually lost power and stalled. 20~ miles on the new rebuilt.

The mechanic will come out to my place this afternoon.

I hope they dun try to pull a "no warranty on performance engine" story on me...


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

batmans said:


> Yesterday, I tried to start the GTO up in the driveway and it made a sound as if it was rubbing against something with resistance and the car gradually lost power and stalled. 20~ miles on the new rebuilt.
> 
> The mechanic will come out to my place this afternoon.
> 
> I hope they dun try to pull a "no warranty on performance engine" story on me...


*sounds like no oil *


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

MJGTOWISH said:


> *sounds like no oil *


There's oil in there.

Very clean oil with 3 miles on it.

I changed it myself and poured it in.

Checked it last night after the engine cooled down....


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

batmans said:


> Yesterday, I tried to start the GTO up in the driveway and it made a sound as if it was rubbing against something with resistance and the car gradually lost power and stalled. 20~ miles on the new rebuilt.
> 
> The mechanic will come out to my place this afternoon.
> 
> I hope they dun try to pull a "no warranty on performance engine" story on me...


So, the new rebuilt engine was making a scraping/rubbing noise and you *drove it 20+ miles*????????
WTF would possess you to even run it, let alone DRIVE it if was making an abnormal noise that you could clearly hear was abnormal???
Who assembled this motor and who installed it??


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

No, I meant to say that after 20 miles on the engine, parked it in the driveway, washed the outside of the car, started it up and the symptoms appeared - I then immediately shut it off.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Who put it together and who installed it?


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Clarks Auto

I called the BBB and they are rated as an A+ company. Just 2 complaints that were taken care of on the side.

At this time I won't jump to conclusion, but it's just dam frustrating when I spent this sorta $$$ and can't even enjoy the car.

Looks like my appt to get dyno tuned this Saturday will have to wait.....


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

batmans said:


> Yesterday, I tried to start the GTO up in the driveway and it made a sound as if it was rubbing against something with resistance and the car gradually lost power and stalled. 20~ miles on the new rebuilt.
> 
> *The mechanic will come out to my place this afternoon.*
> 
> I hope they dun try to pull a "no warranty on performance engine" story on me...


So, what did they say??


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

Sounds like maybe the conrod or main caps weren't torqued to spec? Epic Phizzail on the shop's part.

I can't wait till I get a house with a garage so I can rebuild motors over winter.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

it turns out that the aftermarket 2.6 pulley from Pulley Boys was to tight of a fit and the inside outer dish of the pulley was rubbing/catching.

So what he did was dial the pulley back, had me start up the engine, check to see if the belt was lined up and I was good to go.

Took the GTO to work this morning and continued breaking it in.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

The pulley for what? was rubbing where?? How can you 'dial the pulley back'?? Can you be any more vague?
The belts and pullies on the front of the engine won't cause it to "gradually lost power and stalled".
Something doesn't add up.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

This is a pic of the engine prior to rebuild with the stock Maggie 112 pulley.

The cast aluminum part that is right behind it was contacting the pulley when the Pulley Boys aluminum pulley expanded once the engine warmed up.

I'm not a mechanic so I don't have a robust array of mechanic terminology that I can explain in better details.

When he pulled the pulley back he re-inserted the key on the shaft that kept the pulley from moving back and forth.

Pulley Boys did confirm that this was the proper way of reinstalling it. 

Sorry, I wish I had a better way of expressing this matter......


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

batmans said:


> *This is a pic* of the engine prior to rebuild with the stock Maggie 112 pulley.
> ......


Where??


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

Are you getting it tuned? Don't go beating on a new engine thats not tuned correctly.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Rukee said:


> Where??



Oops. Dunno what happen to the pic.

Here it is:










It's right behind the pulley. Essentially the two were rubbing against each other when the metal expanded from the heat.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

GM4life said:


> Are you getting it tuned? Don't go beating on a new engine thats not tuned correctly.



yes, I have an appt. this Saturday here: Newtech Performance Car Tuning - Master Tuners

$400 for the tune. he said that typical AFR are 11.5:1~

I'm just driving up to 4k RPMs with a lot of up and down shifting, but not boosting or going WOT to break it in and to burn off the gas that's been sitting in the tank since October of last year.

the exhaust smells different with the old gas.

Should I run octane boost while dynoing or will that mess with the wide band readings for example?


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

No, by that time you'll have a fresh tank of gas in there.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

batmans said:


> Oops. Dunno what happen to the pic.
> 
> Here it is:
> 
> ...


If it were that easy, why did the pulley not heat up and expand when they installed the motor and test drove?

...and what reason did they give you for the losing power and stalling??


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

that was the reason.

So far the car is running fine for easy driving.

They didn't drive it much for long periods. Just around the block and back.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Like I said, something doesn't add up. They should have run it long enough to break in the cam and cycle the thermostat a few times, plus the test drive.


----------



## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

cam is stock.

They are afraid of breaking it in since the trip around the block it pinged.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

They didn't repair the knock sensor??


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

that's been repaired.

what may be contributing to the intermittent knock are:

- 5 mons old gas that is still in the tank ( the exhaust fumes certainly don't smell like they used to.

- Ferrea under cut valves that are suppose to breath better

- installation of the Pulley that adds 2lbs~ of boost

The tune should account for the last 2 items.

By the time I go there I'll show up with a fresh tank of 91 octane gas.........


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

Make Sure The Knock Senor Was Replaced!


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

It was repaired.


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

You have knock, and know you have knock and are not trying to increase your octane level? And yet, you are still trying to run out the old gas. I see more bad things in your future. Negligence on your part is not good for your new engine build. I'm sorry if this offends but I think you need a reality check.

Jeff


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

While I was running out the old gas I wasn't putting it under load.

There was no longer any knock.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

I finally had the 35mm film developed with the engine build stages and parts. 

Yea I know, I'm still not buying a digital SLR since the high end Ektar 100 film is like a 28mp resolution.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Ceramic coated heads:


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Ceramic coated pistons on the face and skirts:


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Engine getting balanced to a 1 gram tolerance. It was spinning, but thanks to my sport mode in the camera I was able to freeze it.


















These are early round of pics. I'll have the side lights and smoked marker on there soon. And the front grill will be painted matte black.


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

You sir, are crazy. Thumbs up on over engineering, hopefully this will keep you out of trouble with that Maggie.

Have you considered water and/or methanol injection?


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

Poncho Dan said:


> You sir, are crazy. Thumbs up on over engineering, hopefully this will keep you out of trouble with that Maggie.
> 
> Have you considered water and/or methanol injection?


Thanks.

I'm on the fendce for meth inj. Just concerned with what might happen if the fluid runs out or if there was a pump failure while I was going WOT on the meth tune.

Is there some sorta saftey that will revert to a safe tune if any of these events were to occur?


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## Bluegoat05 (Mar 22, 2010)

so why the ceramic coating? what is it supposed to do? sorry probably dumb question but just curious


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## jpalamar (Jul 22, 2008)

Bluegoat05 said:


> so why the ceramic coating? what is it supposed to do? sorry probably dumb question but just curious


Ceramic coating is often used on exhaust parts, especially headers. It helps to control and lower temps. Lower temps = more power


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

If you don't have a good tune it will distroy any engine no matter how strongly its built.

It looks like you didn't have the head ports cleaned up, it looks like the bowls were un touched.

Meth systems are progressive, they only kick in at a set boost. So if your into boost all the time the more you will use it. I'm not a meth fan myself. The only way you can switch back and forth from a 'meth, tune and standard tune is to carry a loptop with you and flash it when need be. The ECM doesn't have the ability to switch tunes on the fly with the flip of a switch.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

jpalamar said:


> Ceramic coating is often used on exhaust parts, especially headers. It helps to control and lower temps. Lower temps = more power


In addition, ceramic coated combustion chamber surfaces helps dissipate the heat to minimize hot spots. There's also greater thermal efficiencies added to the combustion event since the heat is more contained in the combustion chamber. The coating that I used is used in top fuel dragsters.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

GM4life said:


> .....It looks like you didn't have the head ports cleaned up, it looks like the bowls were un touched....


I was going to extrude hone the heads, but when I bought a replacement head and had it ceramic coated that is when I discovered extrude honing and that there was a L92 head available.

Perhaps next time I'll do the upgrades.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

batmans said:


> I was going to extrude hone the heads, but when I bought a replacement head and had it ceramic coated that is when I discovered extrude honing and that there was a L92 head available.
> 
> Perhaps next time I'll do the upgrades.


The bad thing is the MP112 will not match to a L92 head.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

I found that out too.


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## 87GN06GTO07IRL (Aug 10, 2009)

batmans said:


> I'm on the fendce for meth inj. Just concerned with what might happen if the fluid runs out or if there was a pump failure while I was going WOT on the meth tune.
> 
> Is there some sorta saftey that will revert to a safe tune if any of these events were to occur?


Just go with e-85 if it's available in your area. s/c's love e! It cools better than meth and has a higher octane so you can throw more timing at it and that's where you get all the benefits. Don't have to worry about a pump or running out. All you need is bigger injectors and a tune. I recommend this to ALL f/i owners! You can thank me later.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

06gtoin216 said:


> Just go with e-85 if it's available in your area. s/c's love e! It cools better than meth and has a higher octane so you can throw more timing at it and that's where you get all the benefits. Don't have to worry about a pump or running out. All you need is bigger injectors and a tune. I recommend this to ALL f/i owners! You can thank me later.


Witch is true, the only downside to E-85 is that is not efficent burning.


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## batmans (Aug 16, 2007)

I thought E85 has a lower power density/charge.


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

06gtoin216 said:


> Just go with e-85 if it's available in your area. s/c's love e! It cools better than meth and has a higher octane so you can throw more timing at it and that's where you get all the benefits. Don't have to worry about a pump or running out. All you need is bigger injectors and a tune. I recommend this to ALL f/i owners! You can thank me later.


That's not correct. E85 has an octane rating of 101.6 and that's if it's mixed correctly. Methanol's octane rating is 104.5. Even pure ethanol's octane number is less than methanol at 104.2. These are all the averaged methods of octane calculation R+M/2. From what I understand of it, it can vary at the pump just like gasoline. E70 from what I believe is possible at the pump. Ethanol is also very picky when it comes to the tune. Mess with the ethanol/gasoline mix and your tune is way off. Running alcohol as a primary fuel also requires some different type of injector o-rings and possibly different fuel lines(alcohol and rubber don't mix); and considering the amount of power batmans is making possibly a fuel pump upgrade to meet the new 30% more fuel demand.

Methanol injection is a great upgrade for people not willing to pay for the good smelling stuff all the time. There are plenty of safety devices out there for the case of running out of supply or even if your pump fails. Turbos can have their boost control soleniod turned off in the event of a loss of meth pressure which will gives you WG boost only. As long as your tuned safe enough for WG boost your alright. There are other options for SC's as well but I'm not to knowledgeable about them. They have something to open the bypass valve in the event of a loss of pressure.

I highly recommend you check these sites out and consider adding this to your build.

Snow Performance: SafeInjection?

DevilsOwn Water injection Methanol injection


I run a lot of methanol on my car and it helps keep the timing up without issue and I can run some pretty wild boost with 93 and the addition of the methanol. It will also help to keep your intake track clean as if you still run EGR like I do it gets ugly fast.


Methanol is cheap if you can find it in the right places(I've heard $4/gallon is not uncommon) and while most people recommend a 50/50 mix of water and methanol for safety, I like running a ton of meth vs water. I run about a 90/10 mix.

Jeff


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## 87GN06GTO07IRL (Aug 10, 2009)

kywhitelightning said:


> That's not correct. E85 has an octane rating of 101.6 and that's if it's mixed correctly. Methanol's octane rating is 104.5. Even pure ethanol's octane number is less than methanol at 104.2.


The info you posted is correct.

However, when you spray a small amount of meth a 3gph, 5gph, or 7gph nozzle your running a little 104.2 and a lot of 93. You can not mix enough meth to equal the 101.6 of e85. I mean you could but that would be a huge nozzle pouring in meth, so much, that it would probably bog the car at first from such a drastic change.

So yes meth has a higher octane rating but the mixture won't be more than straight e. Don't forget a lot of people mix meth with water and that delutes it.


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## 87GN06GTO07IRL (Aug 10, 2009)

GM4life said:


> Witch is true, the only downside to E-85 is that is not efficent burning.


Do you mean for mpg or power? You will get less mpg and have to get bigger injectors to spray more but when you figure in the cost difference it actually save you a few pennies in cost per mile.

You will get more power from the extra timing.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

06gtoin216 said:


> Do you mean for mpg or power? You will get less mpg and have to get bigger injectors to spray more but when you figure in the cost difference it actually save you a few pennies in cost per mile.
> 
> You will get more power from the extra timing.


You get more power but you burn more. Thats why I said it not as effeciant burning as stright gas, thats why you need bigger injectors. Yes the corn juice is cheaper too. There is a few people on the other forum that use it. Also more and more race cars use it. Its not really something that can be readly available because its not everywere. If your someone that likes to drive your car places it may not be the thing for you. The benifits is still a little better even though you use alot more of it. A cleaner burning car with more power, yeahh!


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

Also meth is not recommended to be sprayed before the S/C like roots or screw types. It's is known to eat the coating on the rotors. I seen a picture posted by an aussie that the intercooler was all jacked up, said it was due to meth.


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## kywhitelightning (Oct 28, 2009)

06gtoin216 said:


> The info you posted is correct.
> 
> However, when you spray a small amount of meth a 3gph, 5gph, or 7gph nozzle your running a little 104.2 and a lot of 93. You can not mix enough meth to equal the 101.6 of e85. I mean you could but that would be a huge nozzle pouring in meth, so much, that it would probably bog the car at first from such a drastic change.
> 
> So yes meth has a higher octane rating but the mixture won't be more than straight e. Don't forget a lot of people mix meth with water and that delutes it.


That is true as well. As I said before I run a ton of meth on my car with a 14gph nozzle and a 90/10 mix of meth to water. It doesn't bog the car as it is a progressive setup based on boost. All you need to do is tune the meth in with the gas. The biggest advantage of using a meth setup vs converting to E85 is the fact that just like race gas you don't need that octane at idle/cruise and it's wasted. Methanol is only used when you need it.

The water does two important functions: 1) Cooling 2)Compression increase due to it's uncompressable inert nature.

I like what I have seen E85 do for others and once it becomes available everywhere it WILL be the fuel to run in performance street driven applications but availability is a major drawback.



GM4life said:


> Also meth is not recommended to be sprayed before the S/C like roots or screw types. It's is known to eat the coating on the rotors. I seen a picture posted by an aussie that the intercooler was all jacked up, said it was due to meth.


That would be something to talk to the experts at one of those two sites about. I would think that if it was eating SC's they wouldn't recommend using it for SC applications or maybe injecting it in a different location. It's corrosive so I believe what you are saying but I'm not exactly SC savy.

In the end it's all about what the end user wants to use in his build. The best thing we can do for batmans is supply as much quality info as possible to allow him to make the best informed decision for his build. That being said an octane increase for batmans I believe is inevitable, it's up to him which route he takes and all routes will have their own benefits, drawbacks, and additional expenses incurred.

Jeff


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

kywhitelightning said:


> That would be something to talk to the experts at one of those two sites about. I would think that if it was eating SC's they wouldn't recommend using it for SC applications or maybe injecting it in a different location. It's corrosive so I believe what you are saying but I'm not exactly SC savy.


That has allready came from the people who manufacture them, nothing else would eat off the coating from the rotors. And of course that is from repeated usage mostlikly, a car that see alot of track duty.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

Either way I wouldn't recommend meth its just a band-aid than just addressing the real problem and thats a fuel system thats not up to par. Build your set-up correctly with a safe tune and you won't need it. Meth is used to squeeze the most out of a car that is on the edge any way. I never was a big fan of meth and never will, 700, 900 and 1300rwhp cars don't need it. Spend the extra money and do it right, you don't have to worry about running out of meth and blowing your engine. Plus it adds more of what can go wrong.

Batmans, like I said before address the fuel system. Look at walbro fuel pump, Kenne Bell boost a pump, and maybe looking into doing a 8.1 fuel bucket mod. You don't have nearly an exotic setup to use meth.


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