# What's this 64 LeMans worth?



## Wob (Dec 2, 2010)

Hey guys question (sorry if its frowned upon to ask or in the wrong place)

I am picking up a 64 LeMans and going to do some work and sell it.
Currently:
389 from a Bonny
Column shift 2spd
Was grenadier red on parchment. SOLID car ZERO rust, paint is patina'ed all over( pretty well gone but still red and worn to primer) (hood is patina'ed blue)
Needs full interior, but has bucket front seat cores.

Thinking about two routes - the 8 out of 10 cruiser route and the patina'ed quick and nasty route.

Cruiser Route:
Full Interior 
Paint 
Rechrome the bumpers
Weather strips
Detail the engine bay and really just make a NICE cruiser. Not a show car, but one you would be proud to drive around and looks very nice.

Rod Route:
Leave the paint as is - scour pad the whole thing
Wring the engine out a bit:
Heads (maybe), ignition, carb, exhaust, intake manny, cam and rumbly exhaust
TH400 swap 
Rake the car a bit
Carpet, headliner and some simple trim, race buckets and harnesses
Nice set of wheels and tires

Both get me smiling to think about but I want to go a route that will have the most financial and time benefit in the end.

Now I know it will all depend on final shape etc, so its hard to say, but a guessed range could be helpful. I have been thinking it could be about $9-$12k on the cruiser and $8-$10k on the rod? thoughts? Thanks guys!


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I think you have it pretty well figured out, all the way around. My vote is to paint it_ and_ go the rod route. Nothing wrong with a clean, stealthy LeMans. I'm not into the rat rod look.....I've been around long enough that when I was coming up, faded paint/primer meant you were _stone broke_, not 'cool'. Back in the day,'rat rods' were called "roaches". My father's generation called them "jalopies". Original patina is ok, if done right, though. But my vote would be to make the car a nice hot driver with either finish you choose. Easier to sell the painted car, but you knew that. There is a guy on the pyforums by the name of b-man who drives a wicked '64 GTO clone that looks like it's been abandoned in the desert for 30 years. Car has an absolute bada$$ look. Check it out..........


----------



## Wob (Dec 2, 2010)

Thanks! The problem is time and money going the paint route. If I do it myself, LOTS of time in prep and sanding etc. If I get someone to do it, I'm looking at $3-$4k, which if we are talking about a car that is worth $9-$12k could hurt margins a lot, you know? Thats why I was curious on value before I go one way or another. Its a column shift though, which I know hurts value too. If I could be confident in a $12k on the low/avg side then its one thing, but $9k with a $4k paint job - bye bye profit.

I could prep it and have someone else paint it but thats $$$$ for actually not too much return IMO since I'd still have to sand and buff etc. 

Thats why I was debating just a nasty little 389 on a patina'ed ride. NOT a rat rod. Nice interior, no sky high shifters and janky stuff all over. But you are right, harder sell too. Its a tough one. I know there is money in the car for sure, its just which route holds the easier to stick to budget.

Thanks for the thoughts!


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

An original paint job, though very very tired, is far more preferable than a car in primer. Primered cars are 'suspect', as in what's that primer hiding. Original, but worn out paint is honest, and shows a prospective buyer exactly what they're getting. I'd go that route. I agree, paint is super spendy, and painting a 12k Lemans costs just as much as painting a 24k GTO. You'd be money ahead to make it a strong reliable runner and sell it as a modified survivor type car. A lot of folks want a cool old car they can just get in and drive, go to the store, etc, and not have to worry about stray shopping carts and bird droppings. Go for it!


----------



## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Think your close on your numbers, in a good market. Right now the market is soft, so without being well finished i don't see 12K. But spring is buying season and you never know...still a very cool car, even if you have to drive it for a season or two before you sell.


----------



## Wob (Dec 2, 2010)

So what do you think on range currently Ingster? I'm not looking to sell in a few seasons, looking to churn and burn on this one. $9k painted was my low end guess, which maybe seems like your head too?

Its such a tough call on this one whether to paint or not.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

And it depends on the quality of the paint. A poor quality paint job can detract from the vehicle....it would just need to be stripped back off. On the other hand, a high quality paint job would get the car sold easily. My personal experience in your state and mine is that driver quality paint is around 10k.....and this level of work just matches factory finish but is often times not as good. Had a friend in Huntington Beach who was quoted 20k to paint his '65....he ended up going elsewhere for 10k, and it didn't turn out well. Just saying...if you have a line on a good painter/body guy you are waaaay ahead of the game.


----------



## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Cruiser Route: cost of car ????
Full Interior 1500
Paint and body work 3-7000 (cali more like GeeTee said)
Rechrome the bumpers 800+
Weather strips 300
Detail the engine bay and really just make a NICE cruiser. Not a show car, but one you would be proud to drive around and looks very nice. 500??
Incidentals - 1000

heres an option, get the body straight and ready for paint, take pics and logs to show the work was done right along the way spray final coat of flat black epoxy it will seal your work and look good....put up for sale and see where it goes. 

hard to make a buck flipping these cars in this market, cost of parts and materials has not dropped with the market.

pics might help just going by your description, if you get into it and find some sins of the past bodywork and have to start welding all bets are off.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Very good point made^^. The cost and value of these cars has dropped, but parts, materials, and labor are more expensive than ever. The TV is full of car shows where people flip cars for a profit, but it appears many corners are cut. I've never lost money on a car personally, but I've never 'flipped' one, either. I drive 'em for years and then sell for a profit simply due to the collectability/value going up. I still wish I didn't sell my '66 Coronet 440/4spd car in '96, but the 3k I sold it for was twice what I paid for it several years earlier. Good luck whatever you decide to do.........


----------



## Wob (Dec 2, 2010)

Thanks for advice guys.


----------



## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

I get a kick out of Ass Monkey garage...half ass done and they call it a "preservation", and the ones they do full out usually lose money at the auction. Last night he sold a 71' Bronco for 50,000 ...REALYYYY!!!! The Impala he sold to the bearded guys step dad for 35K still had the original color and rust under the hood and trunk lid after a "resale red" re-paint. Plus when they tell you how much he "SCORED" for the week they don't deduct overhead and costs of doing business (rent, utilities, equipment, insurance, comp, taxes, SS, mores taxes). I bet if it was'nt for the money they get paid to do the TV show they would be bankrupt by now and not moving into a 20,000 sq. ft facility.

Sorry for the rant, just got done doing business taxes for the year...:shutme


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

LOL!! Yes, I never miss an episode of Fast and Loud. Like pork rinds and beer, it's enjoyable trash. A 'guilty pleasure'. You are absolutely right on the numbers, too. No way could they make out with their overhead with the very slight profits realized, and all the losses. Two episodes stand out: the one where they _trashed_ an absolutely cherry, one owner-low mile-survivor black '69 Lincoln mkIII, and the one where Richard buys a _real_, original paint survivor '67 427 tanker 'vette for 25k and sells it for 35k....and it's about a 70k car from what I could tell. It's highly entertaining, but the need to lower and 'rat out' every car gets kind of old.....


----------



## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Been watching close this year because of the "New Season" commercial with the GTO, curious to see if it's part of an episode, what they do with it and what it brings. He does score some nice cars in with the duds. Had another 427 vette last night that he wanted six figures and let go to his buddy for 60 i think. Also had two old Pontiacs one 40's and 0ne 30's that would have made cool rat rods and he was dumping them. Not slamming them, living the dream is a tough deal, we all have to eat it sometimes these days. And i am sure he (like we would) has an inventory of "keepers" that can generate cash flow when needed.


----------



## Wob (Dec 2, 2010)

I think they started that shop with the intention of making it a "Show" shop. His goal was to make a brand and get on TV, so I'm sure they had a bigger picture in mind and like you guys said, its all for TV crap. 

On my end though, I've *knock on wood* done fairly well with picking up cars and selling them with some work. Some are decent, some are big money. I'd love to transition into older cars though, so this LeMans is a little test for me. The only way I will know is by trying. As long as I stick to budget I think there is money to be made - the question was overall value and what resto to do. At the end of the day, I really enjoy working on cars (and cars in general and even more so old Ponchos) so, if I can pay the bills and smile all day, great


----------



## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Hey its all about doing something you have passion for. 64's a fine car and i am the last to bash a Tempest/LeMans. Been eyeing a neighbors 70' GTO with Judge trim, went as far as to order PHS on it, was yellow/saddle, nothing special option wise. everything but final body and paint is done, full hotchkis tubular suspension, fresh 455, non numbers. Think i can get it for 10K. I know he has over 20K into it. If i do get it , it will go resto-mod Judge clone. Have a great painter that will spray it for 500 if i buy the materials. Would need wheels and tires at around 2000 for what i'm thinking. so i would be 14K in. Will only do it if i don't NEED to sell it right away, and drive it a season or two with sales sign in it until i get what i would want for it.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Wob, I agree with you. I have bought and sold cars that I was able to fix for cheap because I had the skills and equipment (and time) available. One man's basket case is anothe man's gold mine. I once bought a decent '61 T-bird for $100 because it had a dead hole. I yanked the heads (390) and gave a machinist friend of mine a half-gallon of Kessler for a valve job, and whammo, I had a nice running old car, which I sold for a profit after driving it a year. If you stick within your wheelhouse and play it close to the vest, you can/will make money. The key is to not pay other people to do anything...you need to do it all yourself. That, and luck with good used parts. Out here in Cali, we have an advantage with great old cars and great old parts with no rust/corrosion. Go for it!


----------



## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Us Rustbelters would kill to get our hands on the rust free cars you guys have access to, thats why i imported mine from the high desert. Still have my uncle in Idaho watching for barn finds for me. A grand for shipping beats the hell out of having to chop up a car and weld the whole lower third back on before you even think about getting it sell-able. 

As soon as i get the new shop habitable i will probably start dabbling in some re-sale if the right projects come along. Have a 91' fox body Mustang that i have been collecting parts for and is about ready to be put back together. Will be a Saleen style naturally aspirated Go-cart. Full chrome molly tubular adjustable suspension front and rear, Cobra R 4 wheel disc brakes, 8 point roll cage, two seater for some spirited driving in the twisties. 302 forged internals, heavy duty clutch mated to a 5-speed manual is around 400HP w/ edelbrock alum heads fully match ported and worked into 1 7/8" stainless headers and 3" full exhaust. Have around 4K into the whole thing and I will paint myself. Goal is to build it under 6 grand.


----------



## Wob (Dec 2, 2010)

Picked it up today - really a nice car. Straight, couple small dents and solid rust free original floors. 

Grenadier red over Parchment/Black/Red originally - I think I have to paint it. I hate to get rid of such great patina, but its just so darn straight already :lol: 

That said: little trivia and I may pose this question on the broader forum:
There is a white line that looks like it done at around the time of the factory paint job - deep in the original laquer that follows the bottom body line though the door and fenders etc. Around the belt. I have never seen a Pontiac with it. Anyone aware of a dealer who was painting a stripe on their cars? Its faded, but actually looks pretty nice. I post some more pics of it later but here are a few. The dent in the front fender is minor and basically the only body issue aside from a ding or two.


----------



## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Only Pontiac factory stripes i know about other than the judges were the LeMans and Tempest Sprint 6's but that would have been in 66' i believe. Royal Bobcat stripped their dealer package cars starting in 68'. ohhh and the gt-37 also had a neat stripe.


----------



## Wob (Dec 2, 2010)

Yeah Im totally unaware of it too. See it under the drivers side window bottom body line? Its across the whole belt line. I need to PHS the car I think just to see where it was sold etc,


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Wob, that's an added- on- later stripe. Cool that it's a coupe and not a hardtop...super tight driving cars. Very cool original color scheme, too. If it weren't for the banged up fender, I'd leave it alone. But I think you need to paint it, too. Check out b-man's '64 Lemans on the performanceyears forums....


----------



## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

would make a kick ass drag car...


----------

