# Idle Problems Back ???



## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

About a month ago I posted a saga on here about this issue, I found a loose distributor clamp, timed the car and thought I was done, now the same symptoms are back:

Idles rough, won't idle at all when cold, barely holds idle at 195 degrees
Doesn't feel as strong as it should when running
Have to rev it at stop lights or when braking
When I can get it to idle right, vaccuum about 10 or 12 lbs

Car/Engine:
64 GTO
1976 400 w/ Edelbrock Head, Performer Intake and Edelbrock 800 CFM carb, Accel ignition w/ super coil

Things I've done:
Timed car at 12 BTDC initial, double checked this AM
Held hands over carb throat when running, car chokes out
Sprayed flammable spray over vacuum hoses...can't hear a marked increase in idle

Things I've noticed:
A little spray of gas occassionally from accelerator pump
Fast idle linkage looks and feels flaky...one blip of the pedal and I lose the fast idle

I'm starting to think the Edelbrock is the root of the problem, but.....

Thanks in Advance,
Rick


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

What's wrong with these pictures and could the moisture/corrosion cause my problems....bear in mind, the car ran/idled great 2 months ago...:confused


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## Richard Boneske (Jul 29, 2008)

Sounds like an intake/carb/vacuum leak related problem, not electrical. Those pics of the distributor look OK to me. I've seen MUCH worse on Pontiacs that run just fine. 

Don't forget--it ran OK at one time. If it was mine, I'd take off the carb, remove the top and be sure all passages are clear. This will allow you to check carb base to intake manifold gasket. If you're running PCV valve, be sure it is not hanging up intermittently--allowing too much air at times. You can troubleshoot this by blocking off the vacuum hose to the carb. That will change idle mixture, but allow you to see if it runs consistently that way. It may be easier to just try a new PCV valve.


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Yeh...I have trouble associating electrical with the symptoms but when I saw the corrosion and moisture in there it got my attention

The PCV rattles but I suppose it could be bad none the less

I like the idea of blocking off all the vacuum lines, will try that today

I'll save the carb pull for last

Actually, I've been looking for an excuse to dump the Edelbrock for Q-Jet :cool


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

That rotor looks burned, see the graying around the center strap? That's caused by missfires. Remove the rotor and flip it over to see if the tracks are going through the rotor and grounding out on the distributor shaft.


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Will do Rukee, I didn't see that..


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Rukee said:


> That rotor looks burned, see the graying around the center strap? That's caused by missfires. Remove the rotor and flip it over to see if the tracks are going through the rotor and grounding out on the distributor shaft.


My first thought too..... If arching thru, you have worn plugs with gap too wide or bad wires causing too much resistance. Either cause the voltage to seek ground thru the rotor. While in there, turn the rotor by hand before removing to verify the mechanical advance is still free with all that rust and finally, wiggle the 2 little wires where they go into the central pickup coil. They like to break there from all the flexing and can be hard to detect. They will arc across and keep the engine running for a while but will eventually fail completely.


Fuel dripping from accelerator pump shaft could be high float level caused by worn needle and seat. I just had to replace them on my Edelbrock. You don't need to remove the carb to work on it. There are no gaskets below the fuel level, save for the mounting one. You are able to replace all wear parts by just removing the top cover.


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Rotor pics and another shot of the dizzy

Blocked all vacuum points to carb and no noticeable difference....I did learn the vacuum hose to brake booster is wrong size but was clamped...even so, made no difference when I blocked it

BTW...starts great just won't idle


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Underside of rotor looks fairly dark like you have a resistance issue in either the plugs or wires. I suggest pulling a couple plugs to check gap/color of electrode.


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

If it were me, I would replace the cap and rotor. May not solve your current problem, but may keep another problem from occuring....


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

That rotor is toast.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

just a thought here. im always gunshy of taking apart a carb while its still bolted on. om clumsey and dont want to drop any little pieces down inside. i guess the butterflies should catch fallen trinkets but im not into taking those kind of chances.


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

I might just buy one of the eBay HEI dizzys and get some new AC plugs and a wire set for starters...the ebay dizzy is only $50

I have a guy feeling the carb is the real problem but will wait and see....I'll be looking around for Rochesters


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Koppster said:


> I might just buy one of the eBay HEI dizzys and get some new AC plugs and a wire set for starters...the ebay dizzy is only $50
> 
> I have a guy feeling the carb is the real problem but will wait and see....I'll be looking around for Rochesters


You're just throwing money at it Rick, find the problem and correct that first. 
I know others have had good luck with the cheap ebay dizzy's but the one you have is good too.
A look at the plugs will tell a lot. If they are dark/black you have a fuel issue. I wouldn't just change out the carb for a Q-jet. That Edelbrock is about the easiest carb to work on there is. I never had a Q-jet I liked and always replaced them with Holley's. The Edelbrock that came on my Camaro has pretty much changed my mind about a Holley. A rebuild kit is $34.00 from http://www.streetsideauto.com/produ...s&ResetVQ=True&LookupType=NON&partnumber=1477 and is easy to install.


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Okay, you shamed me in to it, I'll pull plugs in the morning and see what's up in there :cheers


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Koppster said:


> Okay, you shamed me in to it, I'll pull plugs in the morning and see what's up in there :cheers


 Best place to start troubleshooting....arty:


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Too Many Projects said:


> You're just throwing money at it Rick, find the problem and correct that first.
> I never had a Q-jet I liked and always replaced them with Holley's. The Edelbrock that came on my Camaro has pretty much changed my mind about a Holley.


:agree Edelbrocks are really good, easy carbs to work on. I like Holley's, but the Edelbrock can actually get some fuel mileage. Q-jets are either good or junk, no middle ground. My Holley 750 got 10 MPG, didnt' smell rich, but didn't give me 10 MPG performance either. For a cruiser, edelbrock or good Q-jet is the answer.


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Front 2 plugs from each side....looks like they are burning fair but a hair rich to me...is it just me or is there evidence of arcing on all 4?


About at the point where I believe this car just needs a major tune-up to include carb rebuild (or replacement) :lol:

Convinced it's fuel related with some aggrevation by ignition (i.e. rotor, cap, etc.)

BTW, new rotor and cap is $28.95/new eBay HEI dizzy with coil is $48.95....hmmmm?


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Those pics are tough to see, here's one cropped, zoomed and the contrast is adjusted a tad...all 4 plugs identical


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Does look a bit rich. What is the gap ? Looks like more than .045


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Sorry, forgot to post that, .045 "exactly"

Pictures are good but in daylight the electrodes are to the dark side of tan, a little carbon on the end of the plug, not wet, and there is what looks like an arc to the base of the prong on all 4


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Your distributor cap looks fine, I don't see any marks on the terminals. I would replace the rotor and plugs and go from there. Pull the carb, pop the top off and spray it out with carb cleaner, spray compressed air into all holes and bolt it back on. Edelbrocks are pretty easy to work on. And replace the fuel filter. I think it may just be junk in the carb or a clogged air bleed.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

jetstang said:


> Your distributor cap looks fine, I don't see any marks on the terminals. I would replace the rotor and plugs and go from there. Pull the carb, pop the top off and spray it out with carb cleaner, spray compressed air into all holes and bolt it back on. Edelbrocks are pretty easy to work on. And replace the fuel filter. I think it may just be junk in the carb or a clogged air bleed.


My thinking exactly....plugs and rotor. As for the carb, I did the exact same thing with mine a couple weeks ago and it ran good for 2 days and was back to flooding the right bowl. I got the rebuild kit from StreetSide and replaced the needles and seats. Runs great now but I know Rick isn't as familiar with carb work as us and the thought of taking one apart may be intimidating. Wish I could have Scotty beam me down there....

Do you have a friend who could assist with the carb work ?


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Mitch/JetStang...I'm pretty good a 4 stroke/2 stroke motocross engines and carbs...in fact, I had problems with a 4 stroke last week that had been sitting for about a year...similar to my car, it would not idle and I got pops on decel...found rust in the bowl and a pilot jet so gummed it couldn't be cleaned...$11.95 and an hour of cleaning and work made it run like new arty:


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

What do you guys think of this wire set?

Taylor Cable 64651 - Taylor Hi-Energy Spark Plug Wire Sets - Overview - SummitRacing.com


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Koppster said:


> What do you guys think of this wire set?
> 
> Taylor Cable 64651 - Taylor Hi-Energy Spark Plug Wire Sets - Overview - SummitRacing.com


Those wires pictured will not fit your HEI cap, which by the way, I would also replace. Caps and rotors tend to wear together.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Koppster said:


> Mitch/JetStang...I'm pretty good a 4 stroke/2 stroke motocross engines and carbs...in fact, I had problems with a 4 stroke last week that had been sitting for about a year...similar to my car, it would not idle and I got pops on decel...found rust in the bowl and a pilot jet so gummed it couldn't be cleaned...$11.95 and an hour of cleaning and work made it run like new arty:


Well there ya go.............buy a kit and git-r-done......:cool

I have the Taylor wires on my Camaro but I bought a universal kit with ends for both standard and HEI. I think you just need to find the right application by engine year, not car year...


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

What about this wire set, it's universal and has the HEI boots.....and will I need to buy the crimping tool ($59!!!!!) OUCH!

Taylor Cable 83055 - Taylor ThunderVolt 8.2 Spark Plug Wires - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Thanks
Rick


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Koppster said:


> What about this wire set, it's universal and has the HEI boots.....and will I need to buy the crimping tool ($59!!!!!) OUCH!
> 
> Taylor Cable 83055 - Taylor ThunderVolt 8.2 Spark Plug Wires - Overview - SummitRacing.com
> 
> ...


Try this set... Taylor Cable 74016 - Taylor Spiro-Pro Spark Plug Wire Sets - Overview - SummitRacing.com ...vehicle specific for a 76 Firebird 400 with HEI, since there wasn't a 76 GTO. Has all the correct ends and radio suppression.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Too Many Projects said:


> Try this set... Taylor Cable 74016 - Taylor Spiro-Pro Spark Plug Wire Sets - Overview - SummitRacing.com ...vehicle specific for a 76 Firebird 400 with HEI, since there wasn't a 76 GTO. Has all the correct ends and radio suppression.


:agree
Pontiac motors didnt' change ignitions did. HEI wires are the same after 74. I would like to find a set that isn't too short that I can wire around the bottom of the valve cover for a clean install. I need the cut yourself kit. But, I just use the cheapy clamp in a vice deally to crimp the wires that is included in the kit, no reason to buy a $50 crimper unless you're going to do alot of them. And I really like Taylor wire.


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Okay....so I don't need the crimping tool, I can suffer thru building one set with the included vise clamps.

Mitch...I think I'm stuck with straight ends because of the E Heads

Man...it's great to have a bunch of amigos on this forum to help you sort through all this...kind of like the good ole days hanging out in the driveway leaning over the front fenders but "virtually" :cheers

Will keep you guys posted on how this goes, got to order some parts will take a few days and kids are coming back from college this week


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Koppster said:


> Okay....so I don't need the crimping tool, I can suffer thru building one set with the included vise clamps.
> 
> Mitch...I think I'm stuck with straight ends because of the E Heads
> 
> ...


I noticed the set has 5 straight ends and 3 with a 135° bend. I'm not sure where the 135 ends would go but that isn't much of a bend. By my calculations it's a 45° and I don't like the way Taylor describes their ends. Why call a straight end a 180 ???

Here's an economical crimping pliers like I have. They even have the Taylor name on them. TAY 43390 Taylor Spark Plug Wire Crimping Tool Taylor | Racing Parts | (636) 677-1320

Enjoy having the kids back for the summer. You can have a belated Mothers day when they get home...


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Thanks for the kind words and advice Mitch...that tool is the answer, great price!!!!!


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## injn37 (Nov 16, 2008)

Rick,

There is something going on in your dizzy. There is way too much crud in there, beneath the rotor. It looks like the advance plate is rusted, and the wires look like there is rust flecks or something on them. Looks like moister or even oil coming up thru the distributor through a worn shaft, making a mess in there. That area should be squeaky clean. You could have multiple short paths messing with you in there. 
Me, I would pull dizzy, check it and clean it real good.

Or.... it could be I looked at the picture all wrong!

rich :seeya:


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## the65gto (Oct 9, 2008)

injn37 said:


> Rick,
> 
> There is something going on in your dizzy. There is way too much crud in there, beneath the rotor. It looks like the advance plate is rusted, and the wires look like there is rust flecks or something on them. Looks like moister or even oil coming up thru the distributor through a worn shaft, making a mess in there. That area should be squeaky clean. You could have multiple short paths messing with you in there.
> Me, I would pull dizzy, check it and clean it real good.
> ...


I agree with you on this, when I first looked at the Dizzy pictures (and it were mine), I would remove it and take it to the bench for a really good cleaning.


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Guys

I'm ordering a new HEI dizzy from the guy on eBay, at $46.95 for a new compared to $28.95 for a cap and rotor for the Accel unit, it just makes sense

I am not going to install the new dizzy until I have rebuilt the carb to see if that is the main culprit.

I've also ordered new PCV, gas filter, plugs and wires. Will replace things one at a time with dizzy being last.

Thanks all, will keep you guys posted at how this goes...greatly appreciate the support.

Rickster


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## 67lemans (Oct 30, 2009)

I would be very interested to know which distributor you bought and if you liked it after it's installed. I have been looking for an economical upgrade to a high mileage distributor.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

67lemans said:


> I would be very interested to know which distributor you bought and if you liked it after it's installed. I have been looking for an economical upgrade to a high mileage distributor.


I have bought 4 of them, 2 Chevy's and 2 Pontiac. I've heard horror stories about them, this may have been a few years ago, but they have all worked great for me. I have one in my 454 SS, 1 in the 70 Lemans and 1 was in my 66, now on the shelf. They seam good to me, nice, but Chinese. All the ones on Ebay are the same manufacturer I think, lol. I see them all over the swap meets for that price, and I sold an extra one for $55. It's new, advance works, no broke wires, as designed, def better than an old worn out dizzy. Might want to upgrade the module as I did, but beyond that great deal. I will buy more when needed.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

On the 350 I just built, I am having the same idling issues as you, drop it into gear and the motor won't hold idle. Played with it all day yesterday without success. Idles fine, then won't idle, good power off idle. I'm going to take my own advice and swap carbs with a known good one and see if that fixes it. The Edelbrock I am using came off my 66 and ran great. But, I ran a bigger cam and stock converter, so the converter may be bogging it down at idle. I think I just have a vacuum leak or clogged air bleed or crap in the carb. Carbs coming off.:cheers


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

jetstang said:


> On the 350 I just built, I am having the same idling issues as you, drop it into gear and the motor won't hold idle. Played with it all day yesterday without success. Idles fine, then won't idle, good power off idle. I'm going to take my own advice and swap carbs with a known good one and see if that fixes it. The Edelbrock I am using came off my 66 and ran great. But, I ran a bigger cam and stock converter, so the converter may be bogging it down at idle. I think I just have a vacuum leak or clogged air bleed or crap in the carb. Carbs coming off.:cheers


While it's idling, cover the entire top opening of the carb with your hand. If the rpm's increase at all, you have a vacuum leak.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Rukee said:


> While it's idling, cover the entire top opening of the carb with your hand. If the rpm's increase at all, you have a vacuum leak.


I'll try what you say.
I pulled the intake twice yesterday, first time was an exhaust leak at the crossover. Pulled intake and covered the exhaust crossover, then intake whistled like hell, huge vac leak. Pulled it, replaced the intake gaskets, little permatex around the ports, runs better, starts decent-no electric choke, idles and is good on the street, just have to feather the gas when you put it in gear. Not a good running motor, will work more on it, but runs on all 8!


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Friends....things are looking good (knock on wood).

I rebuilt the carb and put new floats in it while I was in there. Only stumbled once, I broke the screw that holds the metering rod cap and had to buy a new airhorn thru eBay.

I put the carb back on this morning and I didn't touch anything else. Took a crank or two to get gas in the system but it started right up and purred like a kitten. The only problem was my electric choke, I installed it wrong and had to take it apart and put it right...litte stuff. I was overjoyed (mind you I have not test driven the car yet so this all may be for nothing, more to come this afternoon).

Feeling good about the carb, I plowed in to the plugs, gas filter, PCV and installed the new Chinese eBay dizzy. Took about an hour from start to finish but it's running and idling nicely, again, need to test drive. Set the initial at 8 BTDC, will adjust after test drive.

The only thing I haven't installed is my new Taylor wires....I started to but I can see that sliding HEI connectors in to the boots is going to be a job. :willy: ...next weekend. 

Thanks again for the support, the expertise, and for challenging me to fix the car vs throwing money at it. Very rewarding. You guys rock! :cheers


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Congrats!!
On the spark plug boots, spray a little WD40 into the boot, then slide the wire in, it will make assembly easier.


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Thanks JetStang...WD40 or silicone lube? I worry about WD40 being conductive?

Thanks
Rick

PS & BTW, my Dad lives close to Niceville in Chipley.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Koppster said:


> Thanks JetStang...WD40 or silicone lube? I worry about WD40 being conductive?
> PS & BTW, my Dad lives close to Niceville in Chipley.[/QUOTE
> 
> WD40 is "water displacing 40". You can spray it in a wet distributor to get it dried out and running, it won't hurt anything and will evaporated in time. Silicone works too.
> Chipley, I know where that is, north of Panama City, it's 60 miles from here, cool.


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Just took the car out for about a 10 mile ride, runs great, better than before.

No idle issues even when I kick in the AC...that's really nice.

The only problem I noticed is my tach is a bit erratic now, must be something with the new dizzy....I'll look around after the car cools down.

Man, I am happy, I can drive my car again!!! Perfect day too, after watching Mecum's last night and seeing that 63 w/ the 421 I've been jazzed out of control!! arty:

Thanks Again!

Rickster


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Here are some pictures of the nasty carb before being cleaned and rebuilt! Yuk!


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Rick, glad you got it dialed in. It's a pretty good idea to add a dab of dialectric grease to the ignition wire ends where they contact the plugs, as well. Prevents corrosion and helps keep the boot from welding itself to the plug insulator.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

geeteeohguy said:


> Rick, glad you got it dialed in. It's a pretty good idea to add a dab of dialectric grease to the ignition wire ends where they contact the plugs, as well. Prevents corrosion and helps keep the boot from welding itself to the plug insulator.


It even says to do that with a Q-tip in the instructions that come with the Taylor wires but they don't supply any grease in the kit...:confused...

Glad you got it running good Rick. Sure feels good to know you can do this yourself, rather than relying on others.:cool I use silicone spray to get the boot on the wire but you can't dawdle with the assembly as it seems to cause the jacket to swell until it dries out.
Factory tachs being erratic is very common after a switch to an HEI. The signal pulse is different. There is a very good article on Team Camaro on how to build an electronic filter to get the tach back steady. All the parts are easily obtained at Radio Shack and solder up in a short time. I don't remember if you have a factory or aftermarket tach. I recently bought a new Sun for my Camaro after the engine swap and installation of the Pertronix and no issues.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Koppster said:


> Here are some pictures of the nasty carb before being cleaned and rebuilt! Yuk!


That is the sweet part of cleaning and replacing , you don't always have to figure out what is wrong, your carb looked real clean compared to some I have done. But, whatever you did fixed it, so something was clogged or dripping, congrats again!
May want to check your tach wire and make sure all the terminals and connectors are in good shape, may be a bad connection, I haven't had an issure.
I had a 65 GTO convertible roll by the house today, looked nice, but sounded like it needed a tune, wish he would of stopped, never saw the car before.


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