# At what point is it a GTO?



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

So ive got a '66 Le Mans , I have the trim grills hood etc etc from a GTO. The only thing ive left alone is the tail panel. Now my question is, If i find a good rolling GTO as a donor can I transplant that body shell onto my Le Mans frame and use my after market fenders and hood that I have and title it as the GTO? I mean surely there are some rottred GTOs out there that used a Tempest or Lemans frame under the GTO body. And im sure they stayed GTOs legally right? I have EVERYTHING for a complete car in my Le Mans that i would use in the donor GTO shell.

Whatcha think? 

Id be using my drivetrain too. 455/ tko600 / 12 bolt chevy. None of which are GTO or Le Mans for that matter.


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## Darth (Apr 30, 2011)

I wouldn't swap out anything and just leave it a Lemans. You hardly ever see any as people are always cloning them and turning them in GTOs. They have one for sale right now at Street Dreams in Texas. That is one SWEET looking Lemans.

As for the titling,I wouldn't want to lie to you or steer you wrong. Pretty sure you couldn't ever title it as a GTO cause the vin number but I don't know for sure. Maybe there's a cop or a lawyer or a DMV guy on the site who knows the answer. Good luck!


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

If you want to put all the GTO stuff on it and make it a GTO clone, go ahead. It's your car, so do what makes you happy. As far as titling it as a GTO when it's not... Don't. first it's illegal to tamper with the VIN or vin tags. second if its not a 242 VIN prefix ('66 -'71), then it's not a GTO and your motivation for trying to pass it off as one will be questioned.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I know a few DMV guys and law enforcement officers very well. It is illegal to tamper with the VIN or do any VIN swapping of vehicles. A felony. Your LeMans is a LeMans, and never was or will be a GTO. That said, I know of a lot of LeMans and Tempests that will mop the floor with the average GTO. The 66 Lemans is a very good looking car, with unique tail lights. To clone it into a wannabe GTO would devalue it, IMO. Keep it a LeMans and build a nice car out of it.


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

If you use a donor GTO body that has the GTO vin and attach it to your LeMans frame and transfer your fenders, hood or whatever, it's called a re-body and would be legal. The car would be titled whatever the "untoched" vin says t is.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Disinti-frame*

Right. If your frame rotted on your GTO, and you put a LeMans frame on it, it'd still be a GTO, according to the vin plate. Ain't no DMV inspector gonna check that! (They might though, at the Nationals!  )


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## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

68greengoat said:


> If you use a donor GTO body that has the GTO vin and attach it to your LeMans frame and transfer your fenders, hood or whatever, it's called a re-body and would be legal. The car would be titled whatever the "untoched" vin says t is.


BINGO. 

Others are mentioning tail panel swaps and VIN tampering. That is beyond out of the question and not my intention. I'm a Pontiac man #1. It is disgraceful and highly illegal. 

My question is if i were to buy a no motor no trans no interior hell no doors or fenders no nothin roller 1966 GTO, 242 car with a numbers macthing title to a body in need of work but having untampered VIN tags & simply use every last part from my Le Mans to restore it. Including my frame. Is it a GTO? 

Motor: 73 455
Trans: tremec
Diff: 68 chevy
Susp: hotchkiss n global west
Brakes: 69 camaro and 90s cadillac

I can go on. Sadly not much le mans OR gto to begin with.


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## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

geeteeohguy said:


> I know a few DMV guys and law enforcement officers very well. It is illegal to tamper with the VIN or do any VIN swapping of vehicles. A felony. Your LeMans is a LeMans, and never was or will be a GTO. That said, I know of a lot of LeMans and Tempests that will mop the floor with the average GTO. The 66 Lemans is a very good looking car, with unique tail lights. To clone it into a wannabe GTO would devalue it, IMO. Keep it a LeMans and build a nice car out of it.


Ive read alot of your posts and i respect your knowledge geetee but whoa... If you re-read my post you would see my intentions are to BUY A GTO. A real GTO with a title much like the 68 i owned years ago.
No my Le Mans will never be a GTO. It never was nor will be. But every last part on it can and will be used to restore the first $2500 REAL GTO i find. Untampered vins and all. No wanna be GTOs but a LEGIT restored GTO. My Le mans will be reduced to a beautiful bud light blue base coat/clear stripped shell on wood blocks.

At what point is a gto a gto? My guess is title in hand to a body with umtampered vins. Regardless of the originality of the chassis and drivevtrain or fenders. Yes your gto is more original, this one would just outrun you. KIDDING KIDDING!!! Seriously if there isnt a restored gto out there with a le mans frame and franken chassis ill give mine away.


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## AMT1379 (May 11, 2010)

I see where you're going. Is that process really more cost effect than selling your LeMans to someone who wants a LeMans, and then buying a GTO to restore? With some hunting I'm sure you can find a borderline driver/project car that would be a great starting point for the new GTO project.


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## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

AMT1379 said:


> I see where you're going. Is that process really more cost effect than selling your LeMans to someone who wants a LeMans, and then buying a GTO to restore? With some hunting I'm sure you can find a borderline driver/project car that would be a great starting point for the new GTO project.


I have found a few '66 242 cars here in Ohio for $1,500 - $3,000. They just need EVERYTHING. The frames are soft or already swiss cheese, the interiors, glass and drivetrains are missing and the shell is ussually in need of 1/4s floors and winshield channels but thats quite doable these days with the aftermarket support of sheet metal. I also do R&D for a major paint company so epoxy primer, base coat and clear are free for me in moderation. Thats what makes this route so cost effective.

I'd rather rotiseree a real GTO hardtop shell, bring it back to life with the needed sheet metal and plant it on my lemans chassis stuffed with all my legit GTO and after market parts than let it sit and rot away. 

A phone call at lunch settled it. ( In Ohio ) As long as I dont move any VIN tags (which i never intended on doing as so many in this post assumed) and I tranplant the body onto a chassis of my choice it can be titled as the GTO per the Ohio Highway State Patrol repaired and salvaged vehicles inspection division. I asked if it would be a salvage title and need inspection and the man on the phone said only if the car was ever deemed salvage or repairable from a collision. Frame replacement due to deterioration does not deem it inoperable. Only a collision does ( in Ohio ). 

He actually shared a story about his brother in law who many many years ago planted a steel '32 Ford body on an after market chassis and it is titled a '32 Ford.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Another LeMans/Tempest will only live on in spirit....


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Benjamin, I hear you. About a year ago, I was looking at a '66 GTO roller. It was the body, frame, and diff, with no doors or front clip. But it was indeed a '66 GTO. If you were to get a car like that (and it sounds like it) and build it into what you want, it's still an untampered VIN, real GTO. The roller I was looking at was a no rust, good frame, solid builder, and only something like $2000. With the cost of restoring a Lemans or Tempest the same as restoring a GTO, the GTO makes more sense if you can find one, as it is worth twice the $$$ if you ever plan on selling it. I just hate the idea of parting out a nice '66 LeMans if it can be saved.


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## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

geeteeohguy said:


> Benjamin, I hear you. About a year ago, I was looking at a '66 GTO roller. It was the body, frame, and diff, with no doors or front clip. But it was indeed a '66 GTO. If you were to get a car like that (and it sounds like it) and build it into what you want, it's still an untampered VIN, real GTO. The roller I was looking at was a no rust, good frame, solid builder, and only something like $2000. With the cost of restoring a Lemans or Tempest the same as restoring a GTO, the GTO makes more sense if you can find one, as it is worth twice the $$$ if you ever plan on selling it. I just hate the idea of parting out a nice '66 LeMans if it can be saved.


Those are my intentions exactly! Hell id rather use the GTO frame with it if possible but $2000 roller '66 gto's around here are typically a rotted mess. I know what all of you are saying, roll the le mans.. But to me, id rather part a nice le mans out to restore a bad shape GTO than let the GTO return to the earth as rusted rotted steel. Its the ultimate sacrifice!


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## 68OldGoat (Nov 23, 2009)

When this era of GTO was produced, it had the same frame as the Tempest/Lemans. Like they do today, the frame is the common platform and you build whatever model you want on them. The cars are designated by trim level but all on the same frame. So the Lemans frame could have been a GTO frame except for the body. Everything on Bensjammin66's new GTO will be authentic all the way down to the frame IMHO.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*#"s*

^^^^Till the judges read the #'s on the frame :willy:


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## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

gjones said:


> ^^^^Till the judges read the #'s on the frame :willy:


Like i said in an earlier post if I have the only GTO with a Le Mans frame ill give the car away.. So somehow, someone see's the frame is not a true gto frame and unoriginal. Neither is the '73 455, tremec trans or chevy rear. Pretty sure they didnt come with bluetooth radios and 4 wheel disc brakes either. Please dont think im trying to be a smart @ss im just saying im not going for show or originality. Just untampered numbers on the firewall and door jam on a restored and revived 242 shell. Gives me an opportunity to finally see my car in a very vibrant red too. Its been blue for yeeeeeears!!


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

In California, the frame number can and does become an issue if the DMV calls for a VIN Verification. An officer of the DMV (usually a CHP officer), verifies registration info against the body VIN tag and the stamped frame VIN. If everything doesn't match, or the frame VIN has been ground off, they can seize the vehicle. Then you have to come up with a satisfactory explanation of why. Changing out a bent, or rotted frame SHOULD satisfy them, but it definitely opens up a can of worms. Sometimes the DMV will then assign their own "Blue Tag" (I believe is what they call it) VIN which will kill the resale value. Now, if the car has not been off the books for more than six years, they rarely call for a VIN verification. If it's been unregistered for more than six years, they almost always require a verification.

I suspect other states are similar.

Chuck


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## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

chuckha62 said:


> In California, the frame number can and does become an issue if the DMV calls for a VIN Verification. An officer of the DMV (usually a CHP officer), verifies registration info against the body VIN tag and the stamped frame VIN. If everything doesn't match, or the frame VIN has been ground off, they can seize the vehicle. Then you have to come up with a satisfactory explanation of why. Changing out a bent, or rotted frame SHOULD satisfy them, but it definitely opens up a can of worms. Sometimes the DMV will then assign their own "Blue Tag" (I believe is what they call it) VIN which will kill the resale value. Now, if the car has not been off the books for more than six years, they rarely call for a VIN verification. If it's been unregistered for more than six years, they almost always require a verification.
> 
> I suspect other states are similar.
> 
> Chuck


Yikes.. Between this info, the smog emmision and gun laws out there I wouldnt do well in California. 

I did call the Ohio State Highway Patrol and they informed me what I will be doing is 100% legal. The only way we get an "R" or "rebuilt" title ( which im assuming is the same the "Blue Tag" you are reffering too ) is if the car was deemed inoperable by a collision and you or anyone else repaired it. It then needs inspected by the OSHP and you need to provide VIN numbers from the donor cars you got the parts from only to prove they were not stolen parts. If it passes off you go with your R title. But its still a GTO nonetheless. 


Rotted frames can be replaced here in Ohio no problem. My assumption is we have that aweful frozen white stuff here and ALOT of cars and older hot rods are rotted. An unrepairable bent frame is most likely more than a mild collision, and if there was a police report that car wouldnt make a nice donor because you'll have that big fat "R" right on the title then. That may affect value some but most GTOs have been restored and most people know that. 

If you got one that is all original and never had extensive body work done than it is my understanding you have a gold mine.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Cornifornia*

That's about getting absurd, the way some states are so crooked that they've got to knit-pick every little aspect. So what if I have a new frame under the body. What's the difference? Like I was trying to convey, the only people that should have worry about that kind of thing would be the Concours judges. And even then, I wouldn't put a whole lot of effort into worrying about it.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

You should be able to change everything EXCEPT the vin and cowl tags if you have the title.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I wouldn't sweat the frame numbers. The one that matters is an untampered VIN number on the door jamb. The frame numbers are almost impossible to get at, let alone see with the car all together. No DMV inspector is going to bother if the VIN on the door jamb checks out. A replacement frame is considered a repair item, anyway if the question did come up (which I doubt).


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

In Ohio they only care about the tag on the dash when titling a car in your name - period. And that's only if you bring the car from another state - otherwise they just go by the paperwork. If you strip a car the dash has to stay with the shell until it's been salvage titled (title and dash with VIN tag go to the junk yard) which you have to do so they don't bother you with license plate and e-check notices. Unless you cut it up and take it to the recycle center one piece at a time after you register it in your name.


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## 66-326 (Sep 16, 2013)

I'm a proud owner of a 66 LeMans in that blue that your trying to diguise and it's kinda growing on me. I want to put a set of rallye 1s on it but I keep getting a thumbs up on the original hub caps. I see a ton of GTO's but not many 237 cars out there.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Thats because a good portion of the LeMans and Tempests built have been chopped up as parts cars, i was in the same boat with mine as to whether to cloan it to a GTO or go the same route and find a GTO chassis to swap my survivor Tempest shell onto. In the end i kept it badged a Tempest right down to the 326 emblems and could not cut out the coolest rear end treatment to replace it with the louvered slots of the GTO. This has allowed me to not worry about motor numbers as i would if i was trying to build a year correct GTO, and also add some custom touches. I will never sell the car so i dont care about resale value but have had two firm offers this season that were several thousand over what i would reasonably expect judged on similar cars sold (still no where near what i have into it in cash and my labor). I like the fact that at most shows i park next to 3-6 GTO's and in three years have yet to park next to a Tempest and only 3 badged LeMans. I like things not always being what they seem....the guy in the challenger that got a good look at those Tempest taillights yesterday...not so much :rofl:


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

"Back in the day", in the '70's when I was in high school, the first Pontiac experience I had was with a class mate who had a '67 LeMans. 326 4 speed car, jacked up with slot mags. Turqoise/turqoise. That car was wicked. I lent him my RD350 motorcycle for the day, and he gave me the keys to the LeMans. I was hooked. Back then, there were a LOT of Tempest's and LeMans's on the street. There was a real clean Platinum '66 that lived by a friends house that had original Rally One's on it. I always thought the tailpanel treatment looked better than the GTO's....and the tail light shape mimicked the great looking '62's. The ONLY reason I personally have GTO's is because I bought them 30+ years ago for dirt cheap.


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## danthepontiacman (Jul 5, 2008)

even using a gto body it wont be a gto in restoration terms because your frames vin would be for a lemans, now if you sold the lemans and got a gto wit ha bad frame and purchased a restored gto frame then yes it would legally be a gto but gtos are fare to common and id hate to know somebody destroyed a good lemans to make a mix a car that will no longer be a lemans and still wont be a gto.


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## bobby326 (Dec 13, 2009)

I am in the process of rebuilding my 67 lemans. Pretty much everything on it is brand new with upgraded drivetrain, suspention, wiring ond fuel system. I have the gto front end and hood on it because i like it better than the lemans. I like the lemans louvers on the quarter panels because in my opinion the gtos quater panels are long and the louver on the lemans break it up a little (gto guys please dont yell at me). On my lemans im going to put tempest tailights on it because i think they look nicer. Basicly its you car do what you want to it. Frankenstien it up.as long as you done try to pertay it as something that its not. Your all good


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## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Im in the same boat. I love the gto grill and hood but also my le mans tail lights. I'll never sell this car so I dont know why I even care what the VIN says. Ive owned it 12 years now. 3rd motor, 2nd tranny, 2nd axle, 2nd paint job, 5th set of wheels?? lol!!


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## GoatGuru (Oct 1, 2013)

chuckha62 said:


> If you want to put all the GTO stuff on it and make it a GTO clone, go ahead. It's your car, so do what makes you happy. As far as titling it as a GTO when it's not... Don't. first it's illegal to tamper with the VIN or vin tags. second if its not a 242 VIN prefix ('66 -'71), then it's not a GTO and your motivation for trying to pass it off as one will be questioned.


67 is the first year with the 242 Not 66.. 1964 to 1966 data plate 5th number needs to be a N. N5 is a GTO and not a lemans if don't have a N its not a goat. . hope this helps..


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Respectfully, 1966 GTO's have a 242 prefix in the VIN. I have owned several '66 GTO's and know this to be so.


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## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

GoatGuru said:


> 67 is the first year with the 242 Not 66.. 1964 to 1966 data plate 5th number needs to be a N. N5 is a GTO and not a lemans if don't have a N its not a goat. . hope this helps..


:rofl: hey man I don't want to come across as rude; but that is a terrible bit of information you have.... its something goat lovers eyes are always drawn too when a 66 is present with the hood up. Probably the most accurate way to tell a real 1966 GTO is its firewall vin tag beggining with 66-242xx. my Le Mans is tagged 66-237xx.


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## GoatGuru (Oct 1, 2013)

geeteeohguy said:


> Respectfully, 1966 GTO's have a 242 prefix in the VIN. I have owned several '66 GTO's and know this to be so.[/
> I did forget that lol.. thanks


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## GoatGuru (Oct 1, 2013)

Bensjammin66 said:


> :rofl: hey man I don't want to come across as rude; but that is a terrible bit of information you have.... its something goat lovers eyes are always drawn too when a 66 is present with the hood up. Probably the most accurate way to tell a real 1966 GTO is its firewall vin tag beggining with 66-242xx. my Le Mans is tagged 66-237xx.


 so yes in 1966 GTO became its own model 242, And I forgot that. Thank You
but as I said for 64/65 MY correction data plate 5th option on plate is a N, N5 So 1965 and 1964 data plate on 5th option is a 5 for GTO option N5.


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## Downtownbrown (Sep 9, 2013)

I think the 5N was only used on GTO's from the Pontiac or Kansas plants. So if the car was built elsewhere it could still be a genuine GTO without the 5N.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Downtownbrown is correct. The '5N' is not found on other legitimate GTO's built at the other plants in those years. PHS or Protect-O-Plate is your best bet to verify a '64-'65 GTO.


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