# Can a car be a Tempest and still a GTO



## riggsjr (Apr 19, 2014)

I am looking at a GTO and its Vin # is 23537 not 23737.The guy claims it is a GTO .Does this mean it is a Tempest GTO and not a Lemans GTO.I am a little confused.Or is this just a clone?The car is a 1965 .


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## Orion88 (Apr 24, 2012)

I don't know the difference in the vin numbers but I do know that in 1965 the GTO was still a Tempest with the GTO option.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

A '65 GTO is based on the LeMans, and would have a 23737 if it's a hartop. The 23537 is a Tempest Custom code, and would indicate that the car is NOT a real GTO. You are looking at a fake.


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

:agree

On a side note, When the GTO was new there was a lot of confusion over if the car was a Tempest or a LeMans. Most magazine articles including the famous Car & Driver Pontiac GTO vs Ferrari GTO article called the car a Pontiac Tempest GTO. Many GTOs today still have Tempest on the registration title but the 37 (LeMans) code is in the VIN and cowl tag.


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## riggsjr (Apr 19, 2014)

That is what I thought! He has documentation on the PHS.The GTO OPTIONS is highlighted in yellow but nothing underneath is highlighted.where it saids all the above items are included in this option , again nothing is highlighted.I was a little confused.I am a newbie and looking to pick up a 1965 GTO but not a clone. 
The PHS also states that it is a TEMPEST GTO.Highlighted in Yellow.


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## riggsjr (Apr 19, 2014)

I wish I knew how to do an attachment I would post it.If anyone wants to send me there email I could forward a picture of the PHS.
[email protected]


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

Never use a PHS provided to you by the owner other than comparing it to the PHS you just ordered yourself. Many people are taking PHS paperwork and making it their own version.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Every 1965 PHS says "Tempest GTO" highlighted, hand printed. For every Tempest, LeMans, and GTO. PHS services uses the same template for all cars. Means nothing. What means something is the build sheet that comes with the PHS, showing engine codes, trans, GTO option (option 382) etc. Indesputable.


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## riggsjr (Apr 19, 2014)

So what do you think?


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## riggsjr (Apr 19, 2014)

OK...I see now .Good point Roger.I will buy the PHS before I buy the car.


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## riggsjr (Apr 19, 2014)

I just not know why the GTO options was highlighted in yellow? That is what had me wondering.


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## riggsjr (Apr 19, 2014)

This was throwing me off....23737
But the vin is 23537
I think this has been altered!!!!


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

Does the VIN have a Z in it? The cowl tag is from Fremont, CA. You should have a letter Z (Fremont) as well in your VIN.

I noticed your PHS has rally wheels but the tires are marked 7.35X14. Rally wheels came with the 7.75X14 size tires.

The VIN and cowl tag info not matching up is not good.


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

On your cowl tag, you have 2 options listed. B70 which is a padded dash. Padded dash is NOT highlighted on your PHS. The C08 is the cordova top. Also noted with the P2. 2 is the black cordova top and the P is the wonderful Irish Mist paint.

Too many thing don't agree.


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## riggsjr (Apr 19, 2014)

Well he did tell me that the car had the vinyl roof but was altered on the restore.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Attached are 2 different examples for you. I kept these from 2 GTO's that got scrapped out, both 1965's. You can see what the vin tag looks like from one of them, and what the cowl plate looks like from the other.

What I noticed on the example you sent, there is a hole in the upper right which should not be there. The rivet on the lower right looks a little less than perfect to me. And, this just might be nothing, but notice that the raised outline on your cowl tag goes all the way around the tag. Mine only has the raised outline at top and bottom only. Pulled out my 1968 GTO (Framingham factory built) cowl tag, and it also only has the raised ridge on top and bottom. Might just be the plant at which it was built and the supplier for the cowl tag.

I would get a copy of the PHS documents for the Tempest vin number and would bet that this would show that the car did not have the GTO option. My guess would be that the car has been altered or the cowl tag added to fool the less knowing. Vin and cowl tag should both match in that they would be optioned as the GTO - and you can see this with my examples.


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

The raised outline all the way around the tag is a very good observation. Fremont tags came that way though (raised all the way around). Each plant did thing differently on their cowl tags. If you know what to look for you might just spot a fake.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Fremont tags had the raised border all the way around. They were also bare metal, and left unpainted. Most said "Mirror Glaze Acrylic Laquer" in script at the bottom. The trim tag posted has been off the car, as evidenced by the left side rivet and smears of sealer, etc. This appears to be a swapped tag. The date code on the tag is 12d. Should match the build date on the build sheet. Does it? Be advised that people order a PHS and can highlight what they want. It's the build sheet for the car (that comes with the PHS) that tells the true story. To get that, you need to order your own PHS. As I stated earlier, the VIN verifies that the car is a Tempest Custom, and NOT a GTO. No matter what trim tag is in place.


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

I believe GM started using Rosette Rivets for their VIN tags in 65 at all plants, here is an image of the rivet for Oldsmobile which is the same for Pontiac. If the VIN Plate has round rivets more than likely the tag has been changed. Also, ask the seller for a copy of the PHS billing history which includes the VIN number.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

......And this is why I don't condone "cloning". :cuss: 

Thank God for Jim Mattison and PHS. Sad to say there are just too many shady people out there. I hope OP does the homework here if he is truly interested in the car. Honestly though if you find the seller is being fraudulent selling this car he should be reported to the authorities. 

I don't have a problem with anyone building their dream car, a silk purse out of a sows ear so to speak but don't misrepresent it as what it is not. Cloning a car and selling it as the real thing with the only goal to cut a profit is thievery.


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## riggsjr (Apr 19, 2014)

Roger,
The vin # does have a Z in it. It is a shame that the car might me a clone. I will post pictures tomorrow as it is a nice clean car but I want a real GTO and not a clone. I emailed the owner again to get a picture of the VIN #. He told me the number off the title which is telling me again it is not a real GTO.


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

As geeteeohguy said, it can't be a GTO (assuming it has the 235 body in the VIN), but for your own peace of mind you can call and pay for a PHS and they can fax you or at least tell you via phone call if it is a real GTO or not. I would do that.


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## riggsjr (Apr 19, 2014)

Also I think the owner bought the car not knowing it was not a GTO . The fellow has been very honest with me and I think he did not do his homework that I am doing. I think he got screwed a little. I think he fell in love with the paint job and under carriage and did not research at all.


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## riggsjr (Apr 19, 2014)

I agree with you guys 100% about getting the PHS. Worth every penny!!! I will do that .


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## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

2 as we all know is Pontiac, 35 is Tempest Custom, 37 is a H.T. Your real issue is the numbers after those call outs. Is the sequence number on all the supporting docs the same? By the same I mean from the "5" to the end as in "5K123456". Sometimes there's no explaination for 1 digit that mullers up historical research. At the onset they were indeed options on the Tempest line. The LeMans was an option and "382" was the GTO option to the LeMans. Did they ever build a Tempest GTO, as in a plain-Jane muscle car? I can't say. 

I had a 1970 LS5 Chevelle. The paperwork had 1 digit off that said I had a Station Wagon vs a H.T. and it caused me some grief after a while with insurance and even a bastard of a cop. Maybe I should have built a 70 SS454 wagon? Kool as it coulda been I just fixed everything. I got stopped because I was driving a flashy rumbling blue car with white stripes and the "hero" that pulled me over threatened to impound my car. I got a ticket for "improper proof of insurance" and the dick would not listen to reason. The judge laughed it off and said "Dismissed..." before I ever finished telling my side of it. Paper can sodomize any deal if it's wrong. You're doing good by this. Good luck to you and the current owner.


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## riggsjr (Apr 19, 2014)

Here are a few pics of the car.I have been looking for a while.A nice clean car.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Yes, it's a beautiful car. But no question at all: It's a fake GTO. _Still_ probably worth 25k if it's done as well as it looks. A comparable _real_ GTO would be 40k and up.


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## topfuel67 (Dec 23, 2008)

It states in the 1965 factory shop manual that GTO option is only available on the Lemanns trim. Save your money on this one as it is a Tempest.
I had a 65 Tempest custom that I filled the emblem holes and put a repo gto hood on. I wanted a nice clean daily driver, not a clone. I sold it for 6k as a Tempest in 09. Now I see that exact same car with GTO emblems that some guy keeps trying to sell on CL as a real GTO with original engine/trans. I put a 389 out of a 65 catalina with a 2bbl auto code and a th350 from a 70s firebird. So you know there are shady people out there. I even posted the Tempest emblems for sale with my pictures of the work being done and the same license plate. I got some funny responses from that...


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

That's the problem with clones. They get sold honorably, but when re-sold a second or third time, the 'clone' status seems to disappear. That's why the buyer has to beware and do the research in order not to get burned. I think the OP is correct: the seller bought this car unwittingly thinking it was a GTO, and is now stuck holding the bag. A very nice car, but a Tempest. IMO, it would have been so much better if it was left a Tempest Custom. How many Iris Mist Tempest Customs have you ever seen? I've never seen one, in 40 years of looking. It was a rare car in its own right.


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