# Oil Pressure and coolant temp



## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

I have about 200 miles on the engine after a fresh rebuild in my 67 GTO. 1968 400 block, 461 Eagle crank and pistons, Eheads/10.4 compression, Comp HR cam XR288HR, Johnson roller lifters (lifter bore mod performed), Luhn Performance TV-S1 oil pump, Driven break in oil. My question is regarding oil pressure for my engine and how much coolant temperature can affect it. I've read many oil pressure posts and I'm sure mine is on the high side of acceptable (or over). Cold start ups give over 80psi. I've attached some pictures so you can get an idea. Each picture is after a 20 minute drive and the engine is fully heat soaked.

Picture 1 is driving, 5th gear about 55 mph
Picture 2 is driving, 4th gear same speed
Picture 3 is idling back in the garage after the drive.

I worry my cold pressure is far too high and could cause major issues if the engine goes too far past idle. Another concern is the oil not being sent through the filter. The car refuses to get any warmer than 180 degrees even in the Texas heat (checked with IR gun multiple spots). Should I try a hotter thermostat? I plan on HR2 10w30 after the break in but should I consider something even thinner? Should I just drive it and be happy? Maybe put a piece of tape over the gauges?


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## Sick467 (Oct 29, 2019)

I would verify that the pressure gage is accurate before getting too concerned.


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

Good idea. I can pick up a cheap mechanical gauge and do that easy enough. Let's say my dash gauge is accurate?


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

The gauge is probably accurate but the sending unit I would have doubts of. Especially a new one. Talk to Pete Serio at Precision Pontiac. He'll give you an earfull regarding present day sending units.

And the originals aren't much better. When he rebuilt my gauges I sent two original sending units. One was operating within a few pounds, the other was way off and eventually failed. 

Your best bet is to compare a mechanical gauge against your factory unit. Use the same port off the oil filter adapter. The one next to the distributor will be 5# or so lower.


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

Pete actually built my cluster for me but it's been about 7 years ago. I'm pretty sure the sending unit is from about that time as well. Best place to buy a new one if that's the culprit? If my set up proves to be accurate how bad off am I with my pressure situation?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

WhittP said:


> Good idea. I can pick up a cheap mechanical gauge and do that easy enough. Let's say my dash gauge is accurate?



You can install a mechanical oil pressure gauge - use the fitting right next to the distributor IF you can remove it. You will get a more true view of what your oil pressure is versus picking up off the fliter housing.

You have Luhn pump which is modified/blueprinted. My guess you have the 80 PSI oil pump - so your numbers look normal.

A fresh engine will be "tight" and oil pressures can be higher initially and until you get some wear into all the bearings/parts.

Engine temps can affect oil pressure - cold they will be higher. Warm/hot they will lower - its all about viscosity. 180 is perfect. Going higher may actually run the engine hotter than it needs and then you may experience detonation.

Oil weight will affect oil pressure. Heavier oils can create higher pressures, but can also promote wear as it take time to get oil where it needs to be when you first start the engine and it is cold. 

Don't know what HR2 oil is? 10W-40 might be a better choice in hot regions/summer. 10W-30 might be better in cooler/colder regions/winter.

What you need to know is how the engine builder set-up the clearances on your main/rod bearings. If tight, then 10W-30. If loose, then 10W-40/15W-40. The engine builder should also tell you if OK to use synthetic oils or conventional oil - I prefer conventional oils over synthetic for these older cars unless you drive it daily.


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## danspinella (Aug 31, 2021)

We have just purchased a 1967 GTO with the 400. We've done a full coolant change plus new 180 Thermostat and hoses. The temp gauge keeps going up to 200-210, the car hasn't overheated and nothing has come out of the radiator over flow tube. We put a laser style temp gun on the radiator, engine block and thermostat housing and it was registering at the same levels. One time it spiked at 260, but it came down. Can anyone tell me if these engines tend to run at these levels? If not what else can we check? We have not gotten much in the cars history, but the previous owner said the car has never overheated. Any assistance would be appreciated. Thank you


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## danspinella (Aug 31, 2021)

Another question regarding the oil level. After a complete oil & filter change the dipstick registers showing it is still 2 quarts down. We added the required amount 5.5 quarts. The dipstick in the car is 16", but what I've found in searches is the dipstick should be 17"5 inches. Can anyone confirm this?
Thank you again.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

I wouldn't worry too much about it. As long as it remans steady and doesn't increase in heavy traffic. 

You may have the wrong dipstick. Does your car have factory A/C?


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## danspinella (Aug 31, 2021)

O52 said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about it. As long as it remans steady and doesn't increase in heavy traffic.
> 
> You may have the wrong dipstick. Does your car have factory A/C?


Thank you for reply.
It does not have factory air, but I thought of getting a 17.5" dipstick and give it a try. I believe it is the wrong dipstick. For kicks we also have a '73 Formula 400 Firebird and I tried that dipstick and it didn't work, it wouldn't go down far enough maybe a different oil pan?


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

I checked the pressure with a mechanical gauge. At cold start it idles at about 80psi. I can't get the engine to warm up past 160 at idle (I'm changing the thermostat soon) but at that temp the oil pressure came down to 50 psi at idle and would hit 75 revved to about 2k. Keep in mind the engine has Driven break in oil at 5w30 so I'm afraid it'll go even higher with the 10w30 at the first oil change. Thoughts?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

WhittP said:


> I checked the pressure with a mechanical gauge. At cold start it idles at about 80psi. I can't get the engine to warm up past 160 at idle (I'm changing the thermostat soon) but at that temp the oil pressure came down to 50 psi at idle and would hit 75 revved to about 2k. Keep in mind the engine has Driven break in oil at 5w30 so I'm afraid it'll go even higher with the 10w30 at the first oil change. Thoughts?


OK, let's start from the beginning. You just had a fresh rebuild. Did some guy in a back alley do the rebuild and you had to drop it off under the cover of night and then had to slip an envelope of cash under a door and wait for the guy to tell you where he dropped off the car when it was ready?

The questions you ask should be easily addressed by your engine builder. Looking at the parts selected, that is no inexpensive rebuild/engine, so the builder should be very familiar with what oil to use, what T-stat is recommended, and what oil pressures you should be seeing.

None of us here rebuilt the engine and it is hard to nail down exacting information on your specific build. If me, put a piece of black electrical tape over the oil pressure gauge and forget about it and enjoy. If you do not hear lifter clatter or a rod/main bearing knocking, then oil pressure is good. If you hear lifter clatter or a rod/main bearing knocking, oil pressure may be bad - remove black electrical tape to confirm. Then go from there.

You have not stated the purpose of the engine, street driving, all-out racing, street/strip use, or trailer queen. Each engine could be built according to use, ie bearing clearances, oil pressures, oil pump type.

The faster the pump turns, the greater the flow of oil to the engine resulting in more pressure. It is the pressure relief spring/ball that regulates the pump pressure and keeps it in check, otherwise the oil pressure could climb to 300PSI at extreme high RPM's.

Pontiac rated their factory pumps at 2,600 RPM's. I would assume this may also hold true to the Luhn pump, but you need to find out and this may answer most all your questions, and fears.

So the Luhn oil pump uses the larger BB Chevy oil pump gears (from what I read). It uses a larger oil screen pick-up and is designed to flow way more oil volume which is what you want. Linear guided Siamese pressure relief spring and check ball assembly (Huh?). I can only assume that your pump may have the 80 PSI spring, but only Luhn can confirm this.

I know nothing about the Pontiac lifter modification other than it seems to be something done with the use of Big Block Chevy roller lifters as they oil band on the lifter is not a match. Most will just use the correct lifters which seem to be Johnson's. I also read that some roller lifters need the higher oil pressures, "Butler recommends and use '80' psi pumps, it's also to get more psi at idle, to help with maintaining HR lifter out of the 'tick' range." . I don't use roller cams/lifters, so not my cup of tea. I also use the 60 PSI pump, but that is with flat tappet cam/lifters.

It does not really matter on the oil, 5W-30 or 10W-30. I never used any "break-in" oil on any car engine I ever rebuilt. Never heard of the stuff back in my time. The break-in oil from my understanding simply has no detergents or other additives. I never used any cam/lifter lube either, just primed the engine prior to firing it up and off I went. However, I never had a big cam cam like the numbers I see so many people want to run - so that may have played a role in it. I will use it from now on just to ensure I don't have any issues.

Each engine is different. Each engine builder builds engines based on his success in building them otherwise he would be quickly out of business if his engines failed on a regular basis. So the builder knows what oil weight type to use and what oil pressures are good or bad. Drive it over to his shop. I know my engine builder would tell me all the info I needed and he'd look/listen to my engine if I had any doubts.

I never worried too much about engine oil pressures or coolant temps unless they were excessively low/high and the conditions at which these occurred. I once got a 400CI engine so hot that the exhaust manifolds were cherry red (seen at night), boiled the water right out of the radiator, and watched the factory tach needle swing past 7K ( I was so spittin' mad I beat on the GTO intending to blow up the engine). Let it cool, added anti-freeze, and continued to drive the car for many more months without issue.

If you are going to be a gauge watcher and worry each time it "looks" like something has just changed, and it will, you will never enjoy the car. Always build them to use them and if they blow up, figure out what the cause was and re-build it better.


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

Thank you for taking the time to address all these points. Lots of good advise here. I failed to mention that it's just a street car and won't see the track. I wanted the engine to perform well enough to give me an uncontrollable smile when I decided to lean into it though. I guess I'm overly cautious since this is my 3rd engine rebuild in the 8 years I've owned the car (and it was parked for about 6 of them!) I'm very confident with the shop that did the work this time. It is more of a vintage car restoration place than a Pontiac specific place though. The mechanic on my project worked closely with an actual Pontiac guy at the machine shop and between the both of them I felt good about the project. The shop rebuilt the engine and swapped my auto for a new TKX. Zero oil leaks, engine runs perfectly, new transmission is better than I even hoped it could be and the shifter and console look like it came off the showroom that way. I'm going to follow up with the shop again on some of these specifics. My next project is an upgrade on the PCV and breather system to help keep this engine leak free and running right.


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

By the way, my rod bearings and mains are on the "loose" side of the spectrum. Crank is .0030-.0031 and rods are .002-.0021 from what I can tell from the mechanic's notes.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Get a Wagner pcv and big breathers or modify ones, been going through a dipstick popping issue because I'm not venting enough


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

Baaad65 said:


> Get a Wagner pcv and big breathers or modify ones, been going through a dipstick popping issue because I'm not venting enough


Ordered the Wagner 2 days ago along with 2 new breathers. May have to modify but we'll see.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Smart move on the Wagner valve, ,….you will love once dialed in


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)




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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

Very nice Baaad65. All I have to work with is a 3/4 id grommet and my twist on filler cap. We'll see how mine goes. That's a nice looking billet piece where did you pick that up?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Thanks, they're pretty common got them on eBay.


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## nick rice (Nov 10, 2014)

I don't trust those factory guages at all. My oil pressure is right on. (7qts in my 389) My temp always read 20° high. I put a two guage pod under my dash, looks like day two.
Your oil pressure looks like it's fluctuating fine to me.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I had trouble with my factory rally gauges too, the oil would all of a sudden drop to zero, scared the crap out of me even tried two new senders also the tach was off I was bumping the rev limiter set at 6k when the tachometer showed 4500..that's the first posts I did when I joined. So out went the old and I designed these from Speedhut 👍


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## lust4speed (Jul 5, 2019)

My son-in-law has a Luhn oil pump on his stroked 496 Pontiac and it is a nice pump. Probably the pickup is the best engineering point of the unit, and other than that just a really nice blueprint pump for way too much money. My engines including my drag engine have to get by with just the Melling pumps. Overkill can be a good thing but somewhat hard on the budget.

A good Wagner PCV valve works just as good as a properly functioning factory stock unit. Just a lot more expensive. 

I would stay with the 5w30 in a brand you like. First number is what is needed for cold start and your initial pressures would indicate you really don't want to change up. Top number 30 is for hot running and sounds like it is working for you also. The running temp sounds okay. People tend to believe the internet and drill holes in the thermostat to "bleed off air" or some BS. Surprising how a couple small holes drilled can completely kill off the thermostat's ability to maintain temps in cool weather. If you are worried about running too cold, take a good hard drive and shoot the oil pan with the temp gun when you bring it back and see where the oil temp is. I like low coolant temps and oil about 210° after a spirited run. It's only the oil that needs to be up high enough to evaporate any condensation present. Long ago I ran a huge engine oil cooler in front of the radiator and what it did was raise the coolant temps because it blocked a good portion of the radiator, and lowered the oil temp where neither were happy.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

lust4speed said:


> My son-in-law has a Luhn oil pump on his stroked 496 Pontiac and it is a nice pump. Probably the pickup is the best engineering point of the unit, and other than that just a really nice blueprint pump for way too much money. My engines including my drag engine have to get by with just the Melling pumps. Overkill can be a good thing but somewhat hard on the budget.
> 
> A good Wagner PCV valve works just as good as a properly functioning factory stock unit. Just a lot more expensive.
> 
> I would stay with the 5w30 in a brand you like. First number is what is needed for cold start and your initial pressures would indicate you really don't want to change up. Top number 30 is for hot running and sounds like it is working for you also. The running temp sounds okay. People tend to believe the internet and drill holes in the thermostat to "bleed off air" or some BS. Surprising how a couple small holes drilled can completely kill off the thermostat's ability to maintain temps in cool weather. If you are worried about running too cold, take a good hard drive and shoot the oil pan with the temp gun when you bring it back and see where the oil temp is. I like low coolant temps and oil about 210° after a spirited run. It's only the oil that needs to be up high enough to evaporate any condensation present. Long ago I ran a huge engine oil cooler in front of the radiator and what it did was raise the coolant temps because it blocked a good portion of the radiator, and lowered the oil temp where neither were happy.



*lust4speed*  "People tend to believe the internet and drill holes in the thermostat to "bleed off air" or some BS. Surprising how a couple small holes drilled can completely kill off the thermostat's ability to maintain temps in cool weather."

*PJ*: Please explain the BS - I am one who uses this process and suggests it. How does a 1/8" drilled hole (s) in the T-stat ring "kill off the thermostat's ability to maintain temps in cool weather."


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

...and how many people on this site are driving their cars in the winter ? I think 5W30 is what my 2017 Impala takes, I wouldn't run it in my 461 I run 15W40 like was suggested by a lot of people on this site..also drilled my thermostat and think it helps my temps stay down a little.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

And I'm sure Gene Wagner would have a few things to say about his valve being compared to a 5.00 valve. Call and ask him to explain 👍


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## lust4speed (Jul 5, 2019)

Jim, you missed "holes", but lets take it down to one hole. First question to ask yourself is did Pontiac or any other manufacturer feel it necessary to drill the thermostat? Next question is what are you really accomplishing other than taking a good design and screwing it up? Thermostats are designed to regulate coolant flow and a properly working one does an excellent job. I don't drill holes in my fuel pressure regulator diaphragm either and allow it to function the way it was made. This is nothing more than a feel good exercise that has no practical value that we all did years ago and some carry on with it today. I've seen just one 1/8" drilled hole have an engine run several degrees under thermostat in the winter and it doesn't get that cold here. I've heard people do it to prevent an air lock when filling the system, but how many millions of cars have been successfully filled without the hole? This is right in there with clipping on a clothes pin to the fuel line to prevent vapor lock. If you think it works, then go for it.

Baaad65, I have a Wagner piece on the garage shelf. A club member went back to the standard PCV valve and donated the Wagner to me. I played around with it on my engine for an afternoon found that with enough tuning it was a good substitute for my factory piece - but no better. The standard PCV valve has one function and that is to evacuate crankcase vapor without sucking oil. Again, millions of cars have functioned perfectly with the $5 valve since they hit the streets. If the Wagner solved a PCV problem then the problem was with a defective factory type valve or an engine condition that should be fixed anyway. There are a lot of lousy factory replacement PCV valves being sold today and I have to wade through four or five at the auto parts store before finding one that appears to work properly. Had a friend that fogged for mosquitos just driving down the street and he thought it was rings. We pulled the PCV off the valley cover and smoke went away in a few miles. He would have been a perfect candidate for the Wagner valve but we went to the auto parts store and got his problem fixed with a factory style that wasn't defective. The Wagner is a nice piece but expensive and sort of the Rube Goldberg approach to PCV valves.


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## lust4speed (Jul 5, 2019)

And 15W40 is a great oil -- I run it in my Duramax. With the Valvoline Conventional 5W30 in my street GTO I have 75 PSI on a cold start up, 55 at idle, and 60 at 2,000 RPM or more. All the 15W40 would do is raise oil pressure higher across the board and retain more heat in both main and rod bearings.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

And everyone is entitled to their opinions 👍


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

OK, lets play the game.

*lust4speed* - "did Pontiac or any other manufacturer feel it necessary to drill the thermostat?"

*PJ*: The Neon 2.0 engine uses a T-stat with a "jiggler" as do a few other makes and big diesel trucks, so "yes."

*lust4speed* - "I've seen just one 1/8" drilled hole have an engine run several degrees under thermostat in the winter and it doesn't get that cold here."

*PJ* - True. The main reason to drill a hole in your thermostat is to keep your car cooler by controlling. However, these holes may only reduce the overall engine temperature by about 5 degrees depending on size/how many of the drilled hole. So running 190 for a 195 T-stat, 175 for a 180 T-stat, or 155 for a 160 T-stat is a bad thing? Nope. But there is far more to an engine running cooler or hotter regardless of T-stat opening temps.

If you live in a colder climate this added hole might just save your cylinder heads from being cracked and damaged due to dives in coolant temperatures as your winter chilled radiator dumps it’s freezing coolant through your heads. A drilled stat would be much more forgiving by providing a continuous flow of coolant and reducing sudden and drastic temperature changes waiting for the engine to reach temps before the T-stat opens. You can see your coolant temp gauge drop when the T-stat opens as the warm "up to temp" coolant hits the cold coolant in the radiator in winter - I lived in New England, so that's fact. That small little hole can minimize the "shock."

BUT, this is also the job of the water pump bypass. The problem being that the T-stat is higher than the water pump bypass and IF you were to have a steam pocket, or air pocket, it would not evacuate through the bypass - where it could through a tiny hole drilled in a T-stat.

*lust4speed *- "I don't drill holes in my fuel pressure regulator diaphragm either and allow it to function the way it was made."

*PJ* - Really? Apples and oranges. So a flexible, rubber, diaphragm that needs to be sealed in order to "pump" gas is the equivalent to a non-flexible T-stat that doesn't pump anything? If I drill a hole in a diaphragm, it is called a leak and fuel pressure drops. If I drill a hole in a T-stat are you saying coolant pressure drops?

l*ust4speed* - "I've heard people do it to prevent an air lock when filling the system, but how many millions of cars have been successfully filled without the hole?"

*PJ *- True. You can just run the engine, keep the radiator cap off and watch for the air bubble to pass by and then hope all the air has purged out. Drilling a hole in the T-stat will allow the air in the coolant system to be forced out as you fill with coolant. When the coolant reaches the correct level, you are done. No need to run the engine up to temp, "burp" the coolant system, refill as needed, and then install the radiator cap. So it is also one of convenience.

*PJ *- Another reason, and this IS from personal experience, is that that small little hole will allow water to pass through when the T-stat fails to open (Chinese junk) and as the coolant begins to creep up to its boil over point, that boil over point rises slower and can add some extra time to get to a safe place to pull over or off the road. Without it, the pressure from the boiling over engine/coolant rises real fast and then because it cannot go past the stuck closed T-stat, explosively backflows through the radiator and pops past the radiator cap in a steam cloud before you know it.

When a T-stat gets stuck closed, it may not open due in part to the cold water on the non-engine side, ie top radiator hose. until heat is conducted to it from the overheating engine, it will stay closed. Drilling the 1/8" holes in the T-stat is a substitute for the now closed passage, circulating some heating water past the T-stat giving hot water a chance to flows past it possibly cause the T-stat to function properly and get you safely home where you can install a new T-stat before getting stranded the next time. 

* lust4speed *- "The standard PCV valve has one function and that is to evacuate crankcase vapor without sucking oil. Again, millions of cars have functioned perfectly with the $5 valve since they hit the streets. If the Wagner solved a PCV problem then the problem was with a defective factory type valve or an engine condition that should be fixed anyway."

*PJ *- How little you know. Yes, the PCV valve works as described. Yes, the aftermarket parts can be hit or miss. However, are you aware that not all PCV valves are created equal? You don't want the PCV valve used on grandma's Pontiac stuck on an L88 Chevy. Why? The PCV valves have specific rates of openings based on spring rates via engine vacuum. Do you think gandma's 400CI has the same engine vacuum as an L88? Nope.

So going to your local auto parts store and asking for a PCV valve for your car is more than likely going to get you a very generic 1-size fits all application rather than a specific application for your car - and that's IF it were stock. How many of us rebuild out engines stock? Very few. So how do you know you are selecting the correct PCV valve based on your engine's vacuum? You don't - who does this anyway? Who even knows this? You certainly don't.

So this is where the Wagner valve comes into play. I have never used it, so I can't comment on it BUT, I can see its usefulness. It allows the engine builder/owner to fine tune the PCV valve/system to the engine's vacuum, whether it be stock or modified. It replaces those sharp engine builders/parts guys who used to know exactly what PCV valve worked best for your stock/modified engine. Those guys, and days, are long gone. So to say that the Wagner valve is "the Rube Goldberg approach to PCV valves" only shows your ignorance as to what it really is and the purpose of ts function, period.

Bottom line, some things are indeed BS, but because you don't understand why certain practices or parts are used does not mean they are BS - it means you may want to research to get the facts and then weigh them out as to whether or no they apply to your situation.


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## lust4speed (Jul 5, 2019)

Sorry, no game here. You state_ "I have never used it"_ but you want to condemn my comments when I have tested and posted a photo of my Wagner that I spent time adjusting where it finally functioned as good as the stock unit (but no better). I have reported what my hands-on on testing has shown, but you suggest I _"research to get the facts"._ You are posting views about a product you have not used nor tested while I actually have tested the product but somehow I am the one that needs to do research. I state what my testing has shown but somehow you believe that you hold the golden key even though you are just repeating results gleaned from the internet.

*"PJ*_ - Really? Apples and oranges. So a flexible, rubber, diaphragm that needs to be sealed in order to "pump" gas..."_ You chastise me for bringing up the fuel pressure regulator and refer to it "pumping". A fuel pressure regulator surprisingly "regulates" fuel pressure and the thermostat "regulates" engine temperature. If we remove your bogus reference to the regulator pumping, my comparison works. A hole in the diaphragm defeats the ability to regulate fuel pressure and a hole drilled in the thermostat defeats the ability of the thermostat to regulate temperature.

*"PJ *_- How little you know. Yes, the PCV valve works as described..." _ Well, thank you for telling me I was correct, but your phrase_ "How little you know"_ fits in nicely with your later comment of _"only shows your ignorance"_. At least you did say that the PCV valve works as I described it, but not sure why your post deteriorated into personal insults? Maybe take a couple of deep breaths before hitting the send button?

I said it in my previous post but will repeat it here since PJ seems to think I'm deriding the Wagner product. I said the $129 Wagner PCV works as good as a properly working $5 PCV valve. Sort of like running out and buying E3 sparkplugs or that $475 distributor for your street car -- they also work just as good as properly working stock items.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I just have one more in me and I'm out of the ring, I think your both very knowledgeable about cars and especially Pontiacs and wish I was half as smart but I don't have the time. 1st... is I don't think this helping the guy who is concerned about his motor, 2nd... in my limited knowledge I still think Lust you're still apples to oranges on the hole in the stat, the stat regulates non flammable water flow and there fore engine temperature to a degree, the fuel regulator regulates pressure of a flammable liquid to a carb to help oxygen burn. So if I put a hole in my stat the worst thing to happen is it effects my heat which I said not many of us care about our heaters we're trying to keep these Pontiacs cooler, I certainly wouldn't do this in my winter driven car although my sister just got stranded in Virginia when her stat stuck closed, blew the hose and water pump so I bet she wishes she had a hole in her stat and I'm glad I have one in mine now too. Now if you want to put an 1/8" hole in your radiator hose now your getting closer to apples and maybe green apples as you would have water spraying out when it started to make pressure, like when the gas is going to start spraying out of your carb because the pressure isn't regulated. So what would happen if you put an 1/8" hole in your fuel regulator diaphragm when you have an electric pump putting out idk..15,20,30 psi or a big mechanical un regulated pump? How much pressure can a float needle and seat hold back? Hence the regulator (but it's not a regulator anymore) If you're going to try this experiment better have good insurance and a fire extinguisher. 3rd..is the Wagner a better than average pcv I think so, is it over priced I think so, but what I've read about it and in talking to Gene Wagner and his son it sounds like they know what their doing and making a living off of it, when you say you got the Wagner to run as good as 5.00 pcv how do you know ,what were the tests and data to back that up just curious and would like to know for my own knowledge. And 4th..how much more heat really is generated from using 15W40 vs 5W30 on the bearings, when I wanted to change oils I looked all over for a consensus and especially this site and no one recommended 5W30 oil so enlighten me again just so I understand if I made the right choice like most everyone suggested. Again not trying to pick a fight and would love to sit down and talk cars over some beers, just trying to understand different points of view with maybe some friendly disagreements that's all


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

lust4speed said:


> Sorry, no game here. You state_ "I have never used it"_ but you want to condemn my comments when I have tested and posted a photo of my Wagner that I spent time adjusting where it finally functioned as good as the stock unit (but no better). I have reported what my hands-on on testing has shown, but you suggest I _"research to get the facts"._ You are posting views about a product you have not used nor tested while I actually have tested the product but somehow I am the one that needs to do research. I state what my testing has shown but somehow you believe that you hold the golden key even though you are just repeating results gleaned from the internet.
> 
> *"PJ*_ - Really? Apples and oranges. So a flexible, rubber, diaphragm that needs to be sealed in order to "pump" gas..."_ You chastise me for bringing up the fuel pressure regulator and refer to it "pumping". A fuel pressure regulator surprisingly "regulates" fuel pressure and the thermostat "regulates" engine temperature. If we remove your bogus reference to the regulator pumping, my comparison works. A hole in the diaphragm defeats the ability to regulate fuel pressure and a hole drilled in the thermostat defeats the ability of the thermostat to regulate temperature.
> 
> ...


*lust* - "If the Wagner solved a PCV problem then the problem was with a defective factory type valve or an engine condition that should be fixed anyway."

*PJ* - Others on this forum have used the Wagner with good results. I do rely and take into account, others first hand experiences - good or bad. I don't have to experience all things to be able to form an understanding or educated viewpoint on some things. You missed the part that not all PCV valves are the same for all applications. So the Wagner valve appears to provide adjustability where a stock type PCV valve no longer fits the application. So it may work as good or no better than a $5.00 PCV valve if the engine responds well to the $5.00 PCV valve. A PCV valve is an orifice inside the valve, *these vary in diameter*, and* the springs have different tension from one another, *and* allow more or less air *than needed *causing* such problems as poor idling and even stalling.

You know you can run without a PCV valve, right? A road draft tube would be much less than a Wagner valve and do the same that a $5.00 PCV valve does. Had several older cars that only had road draft tubes.

*PJ* - You got me on the diaphragm as my mind went to fuel pump diaphragm. Still apples to oranges. I stick to my post on the hole in the T-stat, it ain't internet BS - have done this for many years and it works. If the concern is the T-stat loses its ability to regulate coolant temperatures by a few degrees, then get a smaller radiator that holds less coolant and that should bring it right back up those few degrees. Up where temps get below zero, I used to put a piece of cardboard in front of the radiator to limit air flow and allow the engine coolant temps to get warmer by effectively reducing the cooling area of the radiator.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

I love the Wagner valve and believe it works very well. It allows you to dial it in, it may take some effort, to allow a vacumn to be pulled 1 to 3 HG, 99% of the time according to ME Wagner’s testing. Stock PCV’s were not designed for custom engine builds with stroked cranks and ever hotter cams.

Wagner will stop many oil leaks and that is a very easy and viable check. The one weak spring in any stock PCV often won’t do that. Some guys have trouble dialing it in they try an initial setting don’t see a change and shelv it. But it can be infinitely adjusted up to fixed orifice just like modern engine use.

Wagner has run tests, I suppose one could as well to see how much running time the valve is pulling vac and eliminating harmful vapors vs the stock PCV, or a “better” stock PCV.

If correctly baffled the Wagner will not pull too much oil. It pulls better at idle than the stock PCV because the one spring has to do it all, so stock is more closed at idle. Wagner has two separate springs and a very tunable designed. You are a racer Lust so you know that vacumn pumps are oftenused on race cars and would pull too much oil for a street car.

The Wagner to me is better than stock, easier to tune in and really relieve the pressure more of the “operating time”. No doubt some vehicles can operate with a stock made $5 PCV.

But the Wagner offers an option, to easily tune in and if you are having oil leaks that you cannot tame. Hey some guys eliminate the PCV and just use breathers and say it works great. I would disagree there as well, but cats operate in many different ways.

I would think of the Wagner more like a well tuned 4 barrel carb, yes you can run the car on a small 2 barrel and argue it isjust as good, but the 4 barrel may just give you some more advantages more of the time, by delivering more fuel at needed times. Same with the Wagner, Wagner,.more evacuation more of the time.


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