# Lifters



## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Okay, It's been awhile since I've posted. I have a '65 GTO convertible I restored some seven years back. It took me many years to finally build the car. One of the first pieces to the puzzle I acquired was a correct '65 GTO engine from a friend with around 6,000 miles on the rebuild. 

It's a great engine, but my problem is the engine sat in my parents garage for 20 years before I was finally able to run it once my car was finally completed. I should have replaced the rear main seal before putting it in my car, but that's for a later discussion. My issue with my engine is the lifters.

When I start my engine it sounds like it has solid lifters. I have good oil pressure and the engine runs well. I have adjusted the valves a couple of times and I have the poly locks on the rocker arms. After my engine runs awhile, the lifters get quiet. Another friend has suggested that since my engine sat for 20 years assembled, the springs inside the lifters have gotten fatigued. He suggests I replace the lifters and that should solve my valve train noise.

I've heard different answers regarding replacing lifters. One is the cam should be replaced with the lifters, the other is the existing cam can remain with the replacement of the lifters. 

I don't drive the car very much and I have long term plans of rebulding the numbers-matching engine to run on regular gas. I've had some very constructive discussions about that with some of you on this thread a year or two back. 

In the meantime, I'd like to get my current engine running its best. Any suggestions?

Thanks again.


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Well, I'm not sure I buy the 'spring' explanation because what makes the lifters hold is oil pressure. The springs are there to keep the plungers from bottoming when then engine isn't running. Before tearing into it, I'd try changing the oil a couple times and also re-adjusting the preload (since you have poly-locks) to make sure they're right. There are several decent references for the procedure around..

Here's one:
Pontiac Rocker Arm Adjustment

I deviate from the above in one way. I set each set of valves, one at a time, working around in firing order. I turn the engine over "by hand" until I see the exhaust valve for #1 just starting to open, then I set #1 intake. Turn it until #8 exhaust starts to open, then set #8 intake, etc. Then I work around again, turning untul #1 intake just starts to CLOSE, then set #1 exhaust --- etc. The reason I use this sequence is because if you have a somewhat 'rowdy' cam, using the sequence in the article above -may- not guarantee that you're always on the cam base circle.

Bear


----------



## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

I've had the car running for over seven years, so I think I have good oil pressure. Again, the lifters made noise and I adjusted them while the engine was running. I got rid of some od the noise as a result and the lifters quiet down after a few minutes of driving.

I had the engine in dry storage for 20 years, so you don't think that could cause any issues? I rotated the crank from time to time and squirted oil down the cylinders. You don't think the lifters are bad? I have wondered whether having an engine sit for so long could cause any problems such as lifter noise. I don't have a rowdy cam. It is the base 067 cam.

Maybe I should tinker with the valve train a little further Bear. I have another question about adjusting the valves with the engine running: Do you set the idle lower, or do you let the engine idle at its normal curb idle rpm when adjusting the valves? I could try your method as well.


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I've never done it running - way too messy for my taste  -- I've "heard" though the way to do it is to slowly tighten each one down until it quits making noise, then you're done. Seems to me like it might be a tad difficult to tell when you've got the one you're working on right if they're all making noise... but like I said I've never done it that way. 

I wouldn't assume they're bad - it sounds like you've been very careful to take care of it over the years. Those springs are really just there to keep the plunger from collapsing all the way down into the lifter, they're nowhere close to being strong enough to make the lifter "work" without oil pressure, even brand new. 

You say it had it stored dry.. was there oil in it? If anything I'd be concerned about wiping the assembly lube off the bearings if it was completely dry and you turned it "a lot" over the years. Possibly the lifters are sticking a little from being stored so long - since you say they quiet down once the engine warms up, that's a clue. If they were bad/damaged that wouldn't happen, if anything as the engine warmed up and the oil thinned out they'd get worse - not better. Ifn' it were mine, I'd get it warm until they quieted down then change the oil right then - not the most pleasant thing to do I know -- maybe try that a couple times as well as re-checking your adjustment. That's a whole lot easier than tearing into it. If it doesn't straighten up, then you've still got that option.

Bear


----------



## Bobbyg (Jul 22, 2009)

*Running Adjustment*

:agree I'd do the oil change a few times. A lot cheaper.
I used to adjust my sbc valves while it was running. Put some cardboard on the side to help drain the oil back into the top. They made clips (probably still do) for this procedure. 
I always tighten them down until the noise went away and then back them off about 1/8th of a turn. This was to allow for the lifter pumping up. 
Of course this being way back when, my memory is a little clouded. They make better lifters now.


----------



## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Actually I've had good luck adjusting the valves with the engine running. I do put papers around the heads and I have a good set of oil deflectors to clip on the rocker arms.

I am pretty good about changing the oil on my engine. I've also substituted a quart of oil for a quart of Lucas. While the engine was in storage I squirted oil down the cylinders and rotated the crank from time to time. I guess when I said the engine was in dry storage, I meant to say the engine was in a dry environment while in storage.

The engine has a good history. A machinist friend of mine owned a '65 GTO and the car was wrecked and he rebuilt the engine and put it in his '57 Pontiac street rod. He sold me the 389 after he built a 455 that runs on low octane fuel. My engine requires the high octane gas, but I don't drive my car often enough to feel the pinch at the pump. It will run ok on Amoco Ultimate if I don't shower down on it too hard.

Again, I've had this engine in my car and running for over seven years. I've tinkered with the valve train attempting to quiet the lifters. After it runs for 15 minutes or so, the lifters quiet down. That makes me wonder if I have some collapsed lifters or something since the engine was dormant for so long before I ran it. Everything else seems to be fine.

It couldn't hurt to try and adjust them a little more. Maybe I'm getting close because the noise isn't as bad a s before and they quiet down now when before they remained noisy.

I really appreciate the input on this thread.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

What these gents said^^^. If you just want to replace the lifters, you can without worrying about the cam. A new cam needs new lifters, not the other way around. That said, try adding a quart of ATF to your engine oil during the next LOF or use Rislone oil treatment....the high detergent may de-gum your noisy lifters. Chasing valve adjustment on hydraulic's that are noisy on start-up and have been for years is pretty much a waste of time, IMO....


----------



## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

I guess I am trying to determine whether my lifter noise can be attributed to my engine sitting dormant for 20 years. I've changed the oil annually since I installed the engine in my car. I have used Rislone and Lucas in my engine.

I am getting oil to the valve train because I need to use oil deflectors on the rocker arms when I have adjusted the valve train. I have poly locks on the rocker arms. I have adjusted the valve train a couple of times in the past and it seems the valve train is quieter and it quiets down after 15-20 minutes. 

The responses I have received has me wondering about the oil however. I recognize some of the posters on this thread and they have provided me with some sound advice in the past.

The machinist I purchased the engine from used straight 30 weight Valvoline racing oil. I have been using 10W-30 and again I've substituted a quart of oil for Rislone or Lucas. Prior to installing the engine I did replace some of the gaskets including the oil pan gasket. Everything looked clean inside. I should have replaced the rear main seal at the time. That's a discussion for another time.

Do you think I should switch to straight 30 weight oil? I don't drive the car even 1,000 miles annually and I even wonder if I have driven even 500 a year over the past 2-3 years.

I am open to replacing the lifters, but not if they are not collapsed or defective. I'd like to know for sure before going ahead with the work and expense. I'm starting to think my lifters are not a problem.


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

extinctmake said:


> I guess I am trying to determine whether my lifter noise can be attributed to my engine sitting dormant for 20 years.


It's impossible to say for 100% certain, but given the symptoms you've described I'd say that's the most likely scenario.



> I am getting oil to the valve train because I need to use oil deflectors on the rocker arms when I have adjusted the valve train.


True. That tells you that the oil passages into and out of the lifters and through the pushrods are open and that you have oil pressure. You could still have sticky plungers in one or more lifters though.



> ... it quiets down after 15-20 minutes.


That right there is the strongest evidence that your problem is one or more sticky lifters. If the lifter was "bad", it wouldn't quiet down. It would either stay the same, or get worse as the engine warms up. 15-20 minutes is about the time it takes for the oil to get up to operating temperature. It takes a lot longer for the oil to get up to temp than it does the for the coolant. You may have some congealed oil adhereing to one or more plungers that's causing it to stick, resulting it valve noise due to excessive lash. When it finally gets warm, it thins out enough to allow the plunger so start moving and take up the lash - and the noise goes away.

The responses I have received has me wondering about the oil however. I recognize some of the posters on this thread and they have provided me with some sound advice in the past.



> I am open to replacing the lifters, but not if they are not collapsed or defective. I'd like to know for sure before going ahead with the work and expense. I'm starting to think my lifters are not a problem.


If you're bound and determined to spend the money and do that, by all means be my guest.  That'll probably fix the problem as the new lifters won't have any kind of deposits on them and they won't stick. However, that's going to be a lot more expensive and take more time/effort than a few rapid oil and filter changes after getting the motor warm enough so that the noise goes away, which also have a good chance of clearing it up. 

As far as which kind/weight oil to use, that usually gets into a religious debate because everyone has their favorites. Some love synthetics, some love multi-vis, some swear by single vis dino-oil. I think it's more about using good quality oil with good film strength and shear strength properties and doing whatever's required to keep it clean, changing it before it breaks down. There's some good reading here:
- Bob is the Oil Guy

I'm running Rotella T 15w-40 in the Beast, because that's what Jim recommended (Mr. PBody) and it makes sense _for my engine build_ (bearing clearances a little on the loose side, strong Melling pump, solid roller valve train with lifter feed restrictors) and I'm in Texas where it's good'n hot a good bit of the year. On a cold engine, I religiously let the engine spend a few minutes warming up at idle before I ever move the car, and I never get "generous" with the throttle until it's completely warmed up. Someone else's engine in a different climate might "like" something else better. There's no such thing as one oil that's right for everyone under all circumstances.

Bear


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I parrot pretty much everything Mr. Bear said. I will add that the use of a straight grade racing oil in a street driven car is misguided. Racing oil does not contain the additive packages needed to cope with everyday driving conditions. You'll do more harm than good. The factory calls for 10w30 oil on these cars. I personally am running 15/40 Rotella because that's what it comes in, and I'm in a warm climate. I also recommend a ZDDP additive. Brad Penn makes good oil in all viscosities that has the ZDDP you need, as well. Straight 30 weight, if it's NOT racing oil, with a ZDDP additive, would be just fine, too.


----------



## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

So it could be the plungers in some of the lifters making the racket. You may have convinced me that my engine isn't as clean as I thought. I mean it looked clean in all of the obvious areas, but how could I know if the lifters weren't gunked up inside?

The engine sat on a cradle in my parents garage for 20 years before I got my car put together for it. I kept oil in it and rotated the crank by hand from time to time. I squirted oil down the plug holes. It ran liked a raped ape in my friend's '57 Pontiac street rod before I bought it.

I change the oil every spring before the car season. I live in Nebraska, so toy cars like ours are a seasonal item. 

I run 10W 30 oil. I have used Rislone and Lucas in the past to keep it clean inside so to speak. I have had my car running for over seven years and I have barely put 1,000 miles on the car since, so maybe I haven't run the engine with clean oil enough to clear out the gunk that could have accumulated in my lifters from sitting for 20 years.

Is that within the realm of possibilities? 

I could change the oil when the engine is hot as Bear suggests and add a can of Sea Foam. Would that be worth the expense. I still have a good portion of the summer/fall to drive the car. Maybe that is what I need to do.

I want to think I've adjusted the lifters properly. I follow the guidelines of loosening each until it clatters and turn it incrementally a quarter turn until it quiets. I have poly locks so I cinch it down after adjustment.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Yep, drive the car. My mom's old '64 Galaxie with a 352 4v had ticking lifters for about 10 years. She drove the car 2 miles to work every day. Went through several sets of mufflers in a few years. It never warmed up to operating temperature. When she gave me the car, I drove it 60 miles a day to and from work. For the first time in years, the lifters stopped making noise, and remained silent when I sold the car 9 years later with about 60,000 more miles on it. 1000 miles in 7 years is no miles at all. You need to get it out and DRIVE it!!!


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

:agree What the man done said. Cars and engines don't like to sit. Bad things happen. Open a brand new can of motor oil, put it into another container (so it has some air on top of it), then let it sit on a shelf for 20 years. Come back and tell me what you find.


One thing I'd differ on. I'm not a big fan of 'cleaners' like Sea Foam and the like. Yeah, they can help dissolve deposits. They also thin the oil and rob it of its ability to do its job: protect the bearings from metal to metal contact. You can always take a more aggressive approach (like a cleaner, or changing lifters) "later" if driving it, heat cycling it, and changing the oil a time or two doesn't do the trick. However if you go too aggressive too soon and take out a bearing, you'll be turning what could have been a simple fix into a full rebuild. Just my opinion.

Generally, anything you do to a car "in a hurry" is going to turn out to be wrong. 

Bear


----------



## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Yeah I don't drive the car often enough. I've changed the oil and found it to look as clean as when I poured it in the engine. 

I should have known it wasn't a good idea to have that engine lying around for so long. It took me a long time to finally get my GTO put together.

I'm going to try to put 500 miles on it this fall and see if that helps quiet the valve lifters. Plus it will be enjoyable to drive the car. I'll take Bears' advice and just change the oil again without any additives. 

Maybe I'll get that old 389 back into shape without "surgery."

I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks again for your insight and sharing your experience.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I have to agree with Bear on the additive/cleaner thing. Nothing stronger than a quart of AFT or Rislone, and then once in a blue moon if needed. Cleaners/flushes tend to do much more harm than good, and the whole new "flush fiasco" that car dealers and repair shops are trying to upsell is a scam. The auto manufacturers do NOT recommend engine oil flushing, for just the reason Bear described. It's like the 'scrip drug market: there to generate $$$$ above all else.


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

For what it's worth, I have a slightly noisy top end for about 2 minutes, sounds like just 1 or 2 lifters on the drivers side. Adjusted my a$$ off with the same results.
Replaced the cam and lifters and had the heads rebuilt and the noise went to the passenger side! Bought some replacement rocker arms and guild plates but haven't installed them yet.


----------



## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

I've never tried ATF before to clean out an engine. I've heard about it. How long should the ATF be in the engine before draining?

My 389 doesn't have any guide plates, but I was all prepared to replace the lifters. Now I am wondering if I never got the engine cleaned out enough by driving it and changing the oil every year because I've driven my car just 1,000 miles in the seven-odd years I've had it running.

I've used Rislone a couple of times in my engine. I have also poured in Lucas. I have Lucan in my engine right now. I'm thinking Lucas is more of protectant against dry starts where Rislone actually helps clean an engine.

Maybe I should change my oil again and add a quart of Rislone or ATF and drive the car a couple hundred miles or so. I only have around 100 miles on the oil I changed this past spring.


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Here's the thing. How much of a risk are you willing to take with your engine? If you're willing to risk wiping out a bearing and then having to rebuild it from the ground up, or maybe having a rod seize, break, and knock a hole in the side of the block - then feel free to put in whatever additive you want. If you want to be safe, then don't put anything in there except good quality engine oil.

Anything that's thin enough to 'cut' or dissolve deposits, is not thick enough to lube the engine and protect the bearings. TANSTAAFL. 

Remember that engine bearings aren't really "bearings" in the sense that they are -not- supposed to ever touch metal to metal. The crank and rod journals are supposed to always "float" on a thin cushion of oil that's under pressure. This oil film is only as thick as the bearing clearance - we're talking somewhere between 1 and 3 _thousandths_ of an inch. This oil film has to resist being forced out of the "bearings" under the pressure imposed by what's going on just above them in the combustion chambers - burning gasses creating hundreds, maybe thousands of pounds of downward pressure. It also has to resist being slung off the spinning journal surfaces at 5000, 6000, maybe 7000 rpm. That's an awful lot to ask of a film of liquid just a couple thousandths of an inch thick... If the metal surface of the "bearing" ever comes in direct contact with the spinning crank that's a couple thousandths of an inch away, disaster soon follows. That's why I'm very relcutant to introduce anything that's going to make that oil film thinner and less viscous. 

Ifn it were mine, I wouldn't even consider ATF. It's yours though, and you're the one who'll have to deal with whatever happens, so it's your choice to make.

Bear


----------



## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Bear, I don't want to risk my engine. I'd rather live with the noise than end up having to rebuild the engine as a result of damaging the bearings.

So I guess I will try to change the oil when it is hot as you suggested and run some fresh oil to try to clear the lifter plungers. You don't like Rislone or Lucas? I've used Rislone in other engines in the past and it seems to work well. It is more oil based than something like Seafoam and it probably doesn't have as many detergents as ATF. I can see your point about adding ATF being a risky ordeal.

I need to get this car out on the street/road. It seems I haven't driven the car enough with clean oil, Lucas, etc. to allow it to clean the engine out.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

One quart of ATF added to the other 5 shouldn't hurt anything. I've done it before. But, as pointed out, anytime crud is dissolved and broken free, it has to go somewhere. And that can lead to problems down the road. Another thing on Pontiacs: the oil galley on the passenger side can build up a "slug" of greasy sludge for about the last 2 or 3 inches, as it's a blind galley and the oil doesn't keep on going through. If the rebuilder does not remove the pipe plug at the back of the block when cleaning the oil galleys, it can stay there. The result: 2 noisy lifters on number 8 cylinder at initial start up, especially when cold. The cure? pull the engine, remove the plug, and scrub out the galley.


----------



## 66goatframeoff (Nov 8, 2011)

*New cam and lifters*

Hey Bear I need some help been a long time since I've done this and I use to use same procedure and always had great success.I am attempting to do the final adjustment and am having some issues you may be able to sort out.When I make the adjustment I am taking the push rod to 0 movement meaning I can not spin it at all then going 1/2 turn and locking them down when I retested the compression in #1 was 0 valve was open backed off on adj and could feel the tension on the valve at tdc .The lifters are new and I have no way to pre load them so I guess what I need to know is when spinning the push rod do you spin them until there is a slight tension on them or until you can't spin them anymore and then do your 1/2 turn ?.When researching the Edlebrock site they recommend zero lash then 1/4 turn how do I get to zero lash without pre loaded lifters can I use a go no go feeler gauge ? ?Also do you use any form of locktite on the lockers thanks for any help you can provide ready to button this thing up and burn some gas .


----------



## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

66goatframeoff said:


> Hey Bear I need some help been a long time since I've done this and I use to use same procedure and always had great success.I am attempting to do the final adjustment and am having some issues you may be able to sort out.When I make the adjustment I am taking the push rod to 0 movement meaning I can not spin it at all then going 1/2 turn and locking them down when I retested the compression in #1 was 0 valve was open backed off on adj and could feel the tension on the valve at tdc .The lifters are new and I have no way to pre load them so I guess what I need to know is when spinning the push rod do you spin them until there is a slight tension on them or until you can't spin them anymore and then do your 1/2 turn ?.When researching the Edlebrock site they recommend zero lash then 1/4 turn how do I get to zero lash without pre loaded lifters can I use a go no go feeler gauge ? ?Also do you use any form of locktite on the lockers thanks for any help you can provide ready to button this thing up and burn some gas .


Be careful, here... Not being able to spin them is pretty subjective... I had to reset the valves on a friend's small block Chevy awhile back because he did that and got them all so tight the valves wouldn't close. No compression, no start! I always attempt to move them up and down, while spinning and feeling for tension. As soon as they stop moving up and down perceptibly, I use that as "zero", then set preload. It's definitely a feel issue that gets easier after you've done it dozens of times.


----------



## 66goatframeoff (Nov 8, 2011)

The good news is motor is on a stand and not subjected to starter torque I understand what you are saying about feel I guess my biggest concern is that the lifters are new and are not preloaded with oil so this will cause a variance in lifter pressure I have the valley cover off and can see the lifter start to collapse so I guess I will use the up and down feel and stop when the push rod starts to feel resistance when turning I was going until there was no fee spin on the push rod thanks for the reply.


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

:agree The 'no spin' thing is a little risky. Understand what you're really trying to accomplish is to take all the clearance/slack out then move the internal plunger down 'just a little' so that it's not up against the retaining clip. 

Sounds like you've got poly-locks?

You don't want to tighten them until you can't spin them at all. You want to start with them "sloppy loose" and then slowly tighten until you just reach the point where you know you've taken out all the slack. Maybe that's the point where you can still turn them, but it just gets slightly harder to -- maybe you're moving them up and down and just get to the point where there's no 'up and down' slack left. It's very much a "touch/feel" thing. Once you get to that point, then turn the adjuster 1/2 turn more and lock it down, being careful to hold the adjustment at that point while you're tightening the lock screw.

Also make sure for each one that the lifter is on the cam base circle. There's a pattern some folks use that lets them do half the valves, turn the crank 360 degrees, then do the other half ---- but personally I prefer to do each valve one at a time in firing order sequence - intakes first, then exhaust. (Set each intake when you see the corresponding exhaust just starting to open, set each exhaust when you see the corresponding intake just starting to close).

Bear


----------



## 66goatframeoff (Nov 8, 2011)

*Thanks*

I had the valley pan off so I did the sloppy loose and then started to do my adj just until I could see the lash pad barely compress then went half turn did all the vales 1/2 and 1/2 then rechecked each one separately torqued the poly locks and looks good just in case did a leak down test all cyls passed poured fresh oil in it and got the ol homemade oil pump primer out spun it up and buttoned everything up time for paint and re install fresh eng hoping to get about 425 to the wheels.


----------

