# Upgrade/Mod for '67 GTO...



## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

Greetings All,

Just purchased a numbers matching '67 GTO...

I'd like some feedback on balancing keeping the car a true example of an original, but possibly upgrading to Disc Brakes, freshening up the motor (maybe a bit more cam), and maybe swapping in a different rear gear....

What crosses that line between helping or hurting value vs. improving performance?

Regards,
Paul


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

You can do all the above, just KEEP the original stuff so IF you sell it you can change it back.......be careful messing around inside a motor with an older rebuild!!!!!! I might skip the cam job if I were you. IMHO Eric:cheers


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

Eric,

Thanks for the feedback...tracks my thinking exactly.

As to the motor...I've built a couple of 400's, nothing radical. My thoughts for this one is to pull the motor so I can clean/detail the engine compartment, and rebuild the motor from the bottom up. Probably upgrade to a bit larger hyd. lifter cam...

Not sure what the downside is...

Paul


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Fxnjetz said:


> What crosses that line between helping or hurting value vs. improving performance?


Hi Paul, I can say unequivocally, without any doubt whatsoever, that the answer to your question is.... "it depends".

If you're talking about a super rare combination that's one of a handful ever built, then anything that strays from original is going to hurt resale value. If it's one of the "mass" combinations that were made in high numbers, a few judiciously chosen enhancements might also increase resale value. Better brakes and suspension make the car safer and more fun to drive, and if you really are going to drive it then either you'll have to run avgas/racing fuel, or you'll need to build that motor so that compression is compatible with the fuel you can get. If "go fast" is your thing then depending on how much you want to spend, you can fairly easily turn that 400 into a 550+ horsepower torque monster using readily available parts and services, still using the original numbers-matching block. (For the 3rd year in a row, the car that has won the title as the fastest street car in the state of Arizona is a 1974 Pontiac Trans Am. It runs low 8-second quarter miles and is likely to be in the 7's next year. In race tune he's in the vicinity of 1000 HP - and it's a Pontiac.)

The first question you have to answer though, is what matters to you most? Do you care most about preserving resale value (i.e. making the car valuable to someone else) or do you care most about enjoying it? (i.e. making the car valuable to yourself.) If it's the first, then generally you'll want to keep things original. Otherwise, build whatever you want and make no apologies.

For example, I myself have a numbers-matching 69 GTO hardtop, TH400 automatic, YS code 400 that I've had since college. I'm within 4-6 months of having it done at my present pace, if things go well. I needed to replace a quarter panel and also repair some other rust, so I had the car media blasted. The car was originally Palladium Silver with black interior, black vinyl top. When I got the metal work done and was ready to move on to surfacing/blocking, I had a decision to make. Do I keep the vinyl top and original color (even though I don't like vinyl tops and wasn't wild about the color) or do I nuke the top and paint the car whatever color I like? I quite literally agonized over this decision for a couple of weeks, even though I'd already upgraded the brakes, the rear axle, and especially the engine.

It was the "who am I doing this for?" question that finally got me going. (HINT: the vinyl top is a distant memory and this car is going to be mile-deep-need-a-safety-belt-do-I-don't-fall-in black.)

You'll get a bazillion opinions, but the only one that matters is yours. It's your car and you're the one spending the money on it. Do it however suits you.

Bear


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Bear, I do like a silver car, and am not too fond of vinyl tops......MILE DEEP BLACK is what I am going with on my 67. It was originally red with a black vinyl top and black interior.....I lost the top, am doing a red interior, and a black paint, looks like a black hole don't fall in paint job!:cheers Eric


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

do they make that mile deep paint in a Bahama Blue Metallic???.....lol, love black cars and that red interior will pop Eric.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

How many miles on the car? If low original miles, I'd just reseal the engine and pretty much leave it alone. As for other upgrades, bolt-on improvements are reversable and won't hurt value. As stated above, it's really up to you. You could pull the original #'s engine, mothball it, and build a 400 or 455 or whatever to your liking that runs strong on today's fuel. That won't hurt the value, either. My first car was a Platinum Silver '66 GTO....I love that color on these cars, and you don't see it often. Black's great too, though!!! Good luck.


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

Bear, Geeteeoh,

Thanks for the feedback....

Ultimately, the budget will dictate. I'm in no hurry right now...We're just going to drive and enjoy the car for awhile, and then make the improvements over time that make sense.

How do the YS code motors (10.75 cr) deal with today's pump gas?

Regards,
Paul


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

+3 for silver. 10.7:1 is too high for pump gas, need to get it to 9.5 or lower to avoid detonation on todays gas, if you will be driving it a lot you will have to have reliable source for high octane in the 106 range, if you want to keep block get new set of heads with a larger chamber to tailor the CR, and save your matching ones, again this is a bolt on to make the car streetable and as long as you save the originals it won't effect value. Another option would be get your pistons dished to bring it in line, all depends on how original you want it to appear from the outside.


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## dimitri (Feb 13, 2009)

I would definitely put some disk brakes on the front.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Fxnjetz said:


> How do the YS code motors (10.75 cr) deal with today's pump gas?


Honest answer? They don't. Not if they're really 10.75:1. "Safe" I consider to be 9.3:1 or less with iron heads, around 10.2:1 with aluminum. Aluminum runs cooler and "pulls" more heat out of the chamber, which is good for controlling "nasty D" but bad for making power. All things being equal, you "need" more compression with aluminum to make the same power as the iron head at a lower compression.

Also consider this: again all things being equal, the difference between 9.3:1 and 10.0:1 on a 461 is only worth about 8-10 HP on a motor that's already making 450-500 HP anyway, so it really doesn't seem worth it to push the limit on a street motor. On a max-effort race motor where every tiny bit of power makes a difference, maybe --- but then a race motor will probably be running on high octane racing fuel anyway so it really becomes a non-issue.

Also keep in mind that factory compression ratios were like factory HP numbers --- usually fantasy. A stock 400 with 71cc chambers, a head gasket that's .040 compressed with a 4.120 bore, 6 cc's worth of volume in the piston valve reliefs, and .020 worth of deck height (what Pontiacs "usually" are, untouched), is really only making 10.095:1 compression --- a long way from 10.75:1. That 10.75:1 factory number does not take into account the additional volume in those valve reliefs, nor does it include the tiny bit of volume around the perimeter of the piston from the piston top down to the top of the first compression ring. I'm not sure why the factory did it that way, my guess is that in 1969 when we had "good" leaded fuel freely available, there was no reason to care about a "measly" .05-.08 of compression, and higher numbers looked good in the marketing brochures. 10.095 is still too high for even 93 octane though. With a very aggressive cam (very late intake closing event) you MIGHT be able to squeak by with a perfect tune for air/fuel, and a VERY good cooling system --- but considering the miniscule power gain for all those headaches and risk, why bother?

If the pistons are good and there's enough "meat" left in the tops to be able to cut a dish to increase the volume from 6 cc's to 15 cc's, then you'll be at 9.269:1 with a whole lot more safety (some places you can't even get 93 octane any more). Doing that will also cost you quench volume (less combustion efficiency due to decreased turbulence), but it's definitely one low cost alternative. If the pistons are good enough to be able to get that volume with a D-shaped dish (or if you buy forged aftermarket replacements that are already D-dished), then you don't have to give up the quench area. 

Another would be to go with thicker head gaskets. Cometic makes them in all sorts of compressed thicknesses and they're expensive, but they're also reusable. Starting with that same 400 and changing nothing else except running a set of .075" compressed Cometics puts you at 9.383:1. That option costs you in terms of quench area too, but if you're looking for the absolute cheapest way to make the engine live on 93 and you understand the trade-off's you're making, it's not a bad alternative.

It's been said before, but never rely on factory numbers/measurements. Always measure all 8 chamber volumes in your heads, and your deck heights, yourself. They do vary from the published numbers, often by enough to make a big difference.

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Fxnjetz, let me share with you my personal experiences with my '67 GTO. I purchased my '67 YS GTO convertible (th400 trans/3.36 rear gear) in 1983 with 125,000 miles on the clock. Motor had never been opened...just a timing chain replacement in the '60's or '70s. Car ran like a scarded cat, and burned serious rubber on the 1-2 shift in "drive". In about 1985, Califronia's fuels started to degrade, and the car now started to ping like mad on light load and WOT. I purchased a set of open chamber heads (Ram air 3 #12's) and this helped a little, but I still had the problem. In 1988, I overhauled the motor at 173,000. Went .030 over with an 067 cam. Car still pinged. I was taking the car on vacations, (Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, etc), and I had a special gate valve to bleed off vacuum advance on long light load pulls, and I also used Edelbrocks water injection. Small help, still pinged. I tried 104+ octane boost. Pinged and fouled the plugs with yellow and red fuzzy stuff. In 1991, I gave up on running high compression in this engine. I installed an 068 cam and some big chamber heads, but didn't do my homework. They were HUGE chamber heads....114cc. I ran these heads for years, enjoying poor fuel economy, lackluster performance, and regular grade fuel without detonation. Two years ago I got tired of my GTO running like a Chevy and I installed a set of 87cc iron heads on it. What a difference. The car felt like it shed 2000 pounds of weight. Recently, I removed the 3.36 rear gear and installed a 2.56 posi unit that was a gift. I drive this car a LOT, and long hours at highway speeds are the norm. I now have a car that runs really strong, and gets 19-plus mpg, so I drive it a lot more often. If you want to drive your car a lot, change the heads. If you want to drive it once a month or so, you'll need to run race fuel. The 1967 YS400 in our GTO's is a Prime Detonator. You have three things against you: High compression, a closed chamber head that requires a ton of spark advance to make it work (and the ONLY closed chamber head Pontiac made in 1967), and a camshaft grind that builds a ton of cylinder pressure. Your stock YS 400 has an 067 grind cam in it, making it even more prone to detonation than if it had an 068 (HO) or 041 (ram air) cam. You could change out the cam and bleed off some cylinder pressure, but that would be a band-aid on the compression problem and bite you at WOT on the top end. Sorry for the long ramble, but I've been driving my '67 YS GTO close to 30 years now, and the only thing that worked for me was to drop the CR to 9:1.


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

Bear/Geeteeoh/et. al,

After being out if the game for 30 years.... It appears I may have found a new home.

Thank you all for your time, and sharing what is obviously a lifetime of experience, as well as a passion for the cars, and the technology. Thank You.

This is my 3rd and probably last 67 GTO, and we intend to drive it, enjoy it, improve it, make some noise/smoke (the good kind) with it, and just hang out with gearheads again.

Looking forward to it.

Regards,
Paul


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

keep us updated Paul and have some fun


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

Thanks instg8tr, will do...

Geeteeoh....The plan for the moment is to hunker down for Winter, and break out the Goat come Spring. (It's still in transit from Cali as we speak). We'll most likely drive it as is next season, just to get an opportunity to shake it down and get to know the car.

By next Fall, We'll have had lots of time to do the homework, make a coherent plan for Improvements. I plan on doing quite a bit of driving with it, so not interested in band-aids. Probably looking at phasing the work over 2-3 seasons...(at least the major mechanicals).....the rest I know will be an ongoing battle between my OCD and my budget.

When all is said and done, I want the car to be a prime example of the breed, but with enough new hardware/technology to make it fun and practical to drive. Neck snapping, tire scalding, quickness, on modern pump gas will also be a prime motivation....

...now where did you find those small CC heads for your Goat??

Regards,
Paul


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

here you go Paul, anything after 65 will fit your car you want the larger valve sizes with around 87cc-90cc chamber, bear can tell you more exactly for that magic 9 - 9.5:1 CR, nice thing about our engines is that all the heads will interchange on all the blocks 326-455.

Pontiac V8 Casting Numbers


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

Instg8tr,

Great resource thx.

Given the wide variety of choices at least in terms of heads, and assuming the goal is to get to something greater than 72cc's, Are there good/better/best head configurations in terms of porting/flow characteristics?

I realize that there may be infinite choices once you start altering bore/piston/block configuration, just curious if there is at least a baseline consensus when it comes to optimum heads.

Regards,
Paul


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

no problem Paul, just passing on what i have learned over the last few months after getting back into it after 20 yrs. sounds like a good plan, if the engine is relatively fresh you should be able to do the tweaks from the top end and not have it laid up in the garage for more than a week, all of the engines have flat top pistons stock so the heads will determine the CR and gasket thickness (titan copper ICS) can be used judiciously to tweak it further if need be. 

Did manual disc front on mine w/2 reservoir master cyl., power steering, i feel these upgrades are for safety and comfort of driving and are necessary.

will probably do rear disc's when i find a good rear end since i will have to take the whole back off anyways

Not worried about keeping the motor stock so here is what i came up with did'nt go too crazy on the cam so i have room to go up if i am not happy with a bit over 400HP and around 500 lb torque, and she is mainly stock configuration under all the pretty stuff, besides it's "just a Tempest"....LOL



















http://s1098.photobucket.com/albums/g372/instg8ter/1966 Tempest/


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Fxnjetz said:


> I realize that there may be infinite choices once you start altering bore/piston/block configuration, just curious if there is at least a baseline consensus when it comes to optimum heads.


All open-chamber D-ports, at least the ones with the big valves and screw-in studs, are "about the same". Pre-unleaded fuel ones are going to tend to have smaller chambers that lead to detonation problems unless you do "something else" to manage compression, plus they lack the hardened exhaust seats for unleaded. (There are two opinions on that one, one says "it's always bad", the other says "it's ok unless you're heavily loading the engine all the time - like with pulling a trailer or something." - Pick your poison. I'm hoping the second group is right because that's the direction I went. ) 
A step up from those would be cast-iron round ports such as Ram Air IV, 455 HO, 455 SD, and others. Very expensive and hard to find now, and most also have small chambers and un-hardened seats as well (except for 455 SD).
Going up from there would be aftermarket aluminum. Both D-port (KRE and just out Edelbrock) and round port (Orginal Edelbrock, Tiger) are available. There are also some of what I'd call "exotic" because they aren't anything like any of those, can't use any of the factory intake manifolds, "really look different", etc. CV-1's are in that category, plus there are some efforts going on to reproduce the infamous Ram Air V's.

If you're thinking long term and you care about street performance and tire-shredding, then you'll probably eventually build a stroker. Nothing says "torque" like more displacement. Building a 461 out of a 400 is a very popular move. You've got the strength advantage that the 400 block has over the 455 (and 428, 421), the better oiling of the smaller mains, but with the torque making internal capacity and geometry. With the right cam and air flow (heads) 600 streetable horsepower is very attainable on 93 octane with a cast crank. Use a forged crank for more RPM ability and it can go higher. Getting there takes aftermarket aluminum heads that have been professionally ported by someone who knows what they're doing, enough cam to take advantage of that air flow, and a rotating assembly (and drivetrain) that can live at those power levels - and all that costs money - but it's not "uncharted territory" by any means.

Let me recommend someone to you. Jim Lehart at Central Virginia Machine Services. Jim's one of those rare guys who has enough real-world experience building motors of all kinds (not just Pontiacs) who also doesn't mind sharing information and recommendations. He helped me plan my 461, and spent lots of time with me, even before I ever spent a nickel with him. I did wind up buying most of my parts from him because it just seemed the right thing to do, but he never made that a condition of helping me. Great guy. I'd bet if you were to talk with him and share your goals and budget, he'd help you as well.

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Paul, I got my heads off of ebay. They are 1970 #15 heads from a 455 big car. They have 87cc chambers, which on a 400, gives me 9:1 compression. They are not the trick heads to get. I installed screw in studs, etc. to upgrade them. They have the small valves, too---which work very well with my tall rear end gears and automatic. A lot of the chamber volumes are not as posted on the charts, and need to be verified by cc'ng the heads. For instance, the '69-'70#13 heads are supposed to be 72cc, but are turning up to be about 80cc, which puts them "in the ballpark" for use. Doing the homework and research and hunting is a lot of the fun, and if you're not in a hurry, you'll be able to pay reasonable prices and get all the stuff you need. It sounds to me like you're doing the right thing with the car. One thing I think will surprise you, though....even stock, you will find that '67 is much more comfortable going down the road than newer cars. The rear wheel drive, long wheelbase, low height, and comfortable seating position are superior to today's front drive, high center of gravity, buzzy modern cars. The ONLY advantages of the new stuff is crash safety, sound deadening, and fuel economy. You just may find that not a lot of "improvements" are needed!!


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

Thanks as always to everyone,

Given that I'm 11 years older than the car, I need to flatten out the learning curve...you guy's have already been invaluable in that regard.

Off the motor topic for a bit... I'm interested in your input on disc brake conversions. Who is building the best pieces, what are the most sensible settle (power/manual), what are the best sources for equipment etc.

At the risk of blowing this topic open further, I have the same questions regarding suspension upgrades/setups.....keeping in mind that at some point I need to find a way to make good use of the 500 + ft. Lbs. Of torque that Bear is cranking out...

Regards,
Paul


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

parts for front w/o power boost or master cyl from low end of 400.00 for GM stock rotor/caliper/brake/backer/lines on the front, combo valve another 60-80, to wildwood and the like in the 1500+ range and anywhere in between. 

the plus like stated, with E-bay and Craigslist as 24/7 swap meets if you search and wait you can get some great deals, sounds like you will take your time with it and that works to your advantage. tackle a project at a time, do your homework, SEARCH, SEARCH, SEARCH. i find thats a lot of the fun in this hobby as it can get real expensive, real quick if tackling the whole car. And who among us doesn't want to save a few bucks these days.


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

Instig8tr,

Absolutely agree...

I enjoy the learning/ searching part every bit as much as the nuts and bolts part.

I'm already spending a ton of time just wading through all the topics on this forum.....

Back in the day, it was all knuckle-busting trial and error...trying to find "the guy" who had the hot setup, and then try to get a peak under the hood....

Ah... The power of the internets!

Regards,
Paul


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I hate to admit it, but the internet has made this "hobby" (LIFESTYLE for some of us!) a whole lot more enjoyable, rewarding, and cost-effective! Fxnjetz summed it up perfectly: rumor on what parts were being used, and "can you let me see under the hood"?? Much better now!


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

i think i originally typed "obsession" GeeTee....:lol: but did'nt want to offend anybody, we are what we drive. Will become more lifestyle when i get back on the road in an old Pontiac, been 20 years for me.


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

Geeteeoh, (and others)

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on suspension upgrades (if any), and although it doesnt sound as if you are putting down 500 ft lbs of torque (ala Bear), I'm guessing you have done your share of tweaking over the years....

Paul


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## gto455pr (Nov 7, 2010)

Hi!!! New to this forum but here is my 2 cents. I'm restoring a matching #'s 70 gto 455 but I changed my front disc brakes from 9.5" to 12" from an 1995 impala police car and the rear brakes from drums to 10" disc from a 1975 cadillac Eldorado. The front spindles from the Impala drops the car like 2". I just wanted to mantained the "original" GM look of the calipers. On the engine i bought a books and a booklet, ported the heads and used one of the receipt that appeared int the book with an Ramair IV cam, since i didn't want to re-invent the wheel. At this moment I'm painting the car so i can not provide any info on how the car is going to work in the street with all of the changes. Hopes this help.

PD I changed the brakes cause is better to say, I missed to wrecked the car by an inch than ..........


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

on mine I did stock springs all around, poly bushings, new tie rods, U & L ball joints, stock spindles, gas shocks all around, drag bags in back coils, 11" front disk with GM calipers (believe 67' was first year for front disks so not out of place), dual reservoir manual master cylinder (will put booster on if needed when i see how she drives), from manual to power steering, column to floor shift auto console. When i find a suitable rear end i will most likely do the rear disk conversion.

read 1967 motor trend review of the 67' GTO the other day and these cars were no slouches in the day as far as handling and stopping as GeeTee stated earlier, really depends on how you will be driving your car, saw a vid of a 67' in an auto cross, was awesome to see it tear up that course.

Motor should make around 520 torque and around 435HP paul, thats why these motors are such great street and track performers, they are lower revving engines than their GM counterparts and make their power in the low and mid range from 3000-5400, and 400-455 all make boat loads of torque.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Depends what you want to do with the car. Drag racing, road touring, or cruising. A drag car will have the front sway bar removed, be set up high in the front and loose, and be dialed in for weight transfer on launch. A touring car will have front and rear sway bars, good shocks and springs, and good steering components and brakes. My '67 convertible is stock except for KYB shocks and radial tires. I've put about 140,000 miles on it since I bought it, and like the comfortable ride. I've rebuilt the suspension and steering twice in the past 27 years, with TRW and Moog parts, when everything was still made in the US. My '65 hardtop is a more agressive machine, with a baig cam, headers, tripower, 4 speed, etc, and has an oversized front bar, stout rear bar, HD shocks, and radial tires, but still rides on Moog and TRW bushings. It corners like it's on rails. A friend just completed an nut and bolt restoration on his '67 GTO last week, and I drove it last weekend. He used the new polygraphite bushihgs. The car is tight and rattle free, but is noticeable "harsher" than mine. Rides like a 2000 Trans Am I've driven.....hard and firm. It too handles very well. Neither car has 500 ft lbs of torque, but they both have about 440 foot pounds, which is enough to break parts! Disc brakes on the front are a definite improvement, but mine are drums. In my opinion, rear disc brakes are a waste of time and money and are a downgrade of the emergency brake system. I've had other friends who are in the tubular a arm club, and their cars handle like modern Corvettes, but ride harsh and the frames seem to take a beating where the components bolt up due to their extreme stiffness. It all depends on what you want to do with the car..........


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

Guys,

Should have prefaced my question(s)...(all of them) with intended use for the car, as I know this is always the start point of these discussions. 

Mostly, the car will be used for cruising, and some touring. I'd like to maybe occasionally make a few passes with it out at Route 66 (Dragstrip In Joliet, IL) for fun.

So, while handling and ride are probably the priorities, I'd still like it to be "stout" in the motor department...I'm likely going to follow Bear's path and build a (separate) pump gas stroker, as much for my own enjoyment and amusement as for the go fast part. Eventually would like to have a second car strictly for the strip...so the stroker could be the power plant for that car down the road...

Can't make it do all things...but with the right mix, I think end up with a nice looking, nice handling, respectably quick Goat.

Geeteeoh, sounds like you have the best of both worlds....

Funny how these cars get under the skin...you mentioned your 65...the first car I ever "owned" was a hand me down from my folks... A 65 tempest with the 6 banger in it. They bought it brand new...gave it to me in '71. The 6cyl. was the first motor I ever overhauled (under Dad's tutelage). 

Regards,
Paul


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Thanks, Paul. Yeah, I've got a "cruiser" and a "hot rod". It was easy for me: 
they were CHEAP. The tripower 4 speed '65 cost me $1200, and the '67 cost $1800. They were affordable, used cars and I used them as daily transportation for many years. At one time, I had 5 GTO's, all '65-'67's, and all drivers. Just loved GTO's!! The two I have I bought almost 30 years ago. Both have never been off the road or out of service. Repaints and repairs as needed. Over the years, I like them more and more, if that's possible! Non-gearheads always want to know "how much is it worth?" while the real car guys want to know "what motor's in it?" It's all about fun on this site, and all of us are pretty much in it to keep as many of these cars going as we can and to help out if we can. There's a lot of good people on this forum, and that makes it even easier!! Gotta love all hi performance cars, but the classic GTO's are the best of the best, IMO!!!
Jeff


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

Can't think about the ones I "gave" away...too much pain there still. It's the classic "if only we knew then what we know now" for me. At 19, should have bought a warehouse and filled it with our favorite cars from the era....Could have made a career/lifestyle/retirement all-in-one, and had a blast doing it...

Here is a photo of my last 67...bought it for $1200.00..on installments in '76. I used to see the car around town when I was still in Jr. high....it had around 34,000 miles on it, setup just the way you see it. 400 4 speed, pristine black interior. Probably blasphemy to do that to a Goat today...but it certainly was an attention getter back in the day. Sold it when I went into the Service.

Glad to be back, I (we) intend to enjoy the whole experience...Thanks for helping to show the way...

Regards,
Paul


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

If that's your car in your avatar, it looks alot like mine. Do you have any more pictures? Is yours a hard top or a post car? Mine's a post, which turns out to be somewhat rare. 

I'll post some pics of mine when I get a chance.

Cheers!

Chuck


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

Chuck,

Hope its not your car.....

"mine" is enroute from Santa Rosa via trailer....

Vin is 242177Z122341

More pics.. Click on my photos below avatar.

Paul


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

nice single axle paul, was it a drag car prior to you getting it (the white one)? +1 on the 69'-72 front calipers, have same on mine and painless affordable upgrade if don't want to hunt scrap yards there is a place that sells the kits, think i paid around 300.00 for whole thing spindles, calipers, rotors (free upgrade to drilled/slotted & zinc coated) , ceramic pads, stainless steel lines and hardware (free upgrade)


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Heres a cool upgrade........:cheers


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

G8tr...
nice looking kit...remember where you got it?

The straight axle goat was never a drag car, it was setup that way early in life maybe '69 or so, and was strictly a cruiser/show car. It was in the Chicago Rod and Custom show many times throughout the '70's.

Eric...
I like it...alot...think it'll work on a stroker??

Paul


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

i'll see where i got it from paul and get back....dinners here

:cheers can't wait to see the option package on Erics car...lol


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

here go paul

performo items - Get great deals on pontiac, Parts Accessories items on eBay Motors!

or here for the chevelle, same thing only since they sell a higher volume (i guess) they are a little less

http://motors.shop.ebay.com/perform...iac&_osacat=0&bkBtn=&_trksid=p3911.m270.l1313


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

Thanks G8tr....

Did you go with the 2" drop spindle, or stay with stock? 

Hope dinner was enjoyable...

Now get back to work on that hot-rod...

Paul


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

Fxnjetz said:


> Chuck,
> 
> Hope its not your car.....
> 
> ...


Too funny! I'm in Santa Rosa. I just checked and my car's still in my garage! 

I've never seen that car around town or in any local shows.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

chuckha62 said:


> Too funny! I'm in Santa Rosa.


Cool - I've got a buddy who lives there and has a catering business --- or the business is there and he lives in Petaluma, or vice versa (I get confused).

He makes the best potato salad on the planet.

Bear


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

Chuck,

Rohnert Park actually....

at least I hope....

Here's more pics of "my" car???

If thats "your" garage in the photo...I may have a slight problem....

Paul


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

Hey Paul,

You're good... That paint is way nicer than mine (So is that garage, to tell the truth). Good score!


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

Chuck,

Thx...was beginning to wonder...

Back to Upgrade questions.....

Geeteeoh, by chance are your 87cc heads #64's?

Also, lots of discussion about D port heads...are these the predominant port on the factory heads? Are there more preferred styles, or is that getting into aftermarket pieces?

Paul


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

D ports are the most common, the round ports are on Ram Air and HO heads, most of which are too low a volume to get you down to 9.5:1 w/o port work and/or dished pistons, i believe bear is running Ram Air heads, also they require special exh. manifolds and headers which are very pricey.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Fxnjetz said:


> G8tr...
> nice looking kit...remember where you got it?
> 
> The straight axle goat was never a drag car, it was setup that way early in life maybe '69 or so, and was strictly a cruiser/show car. It was in the Chicago Rod and Custom show many times throughout the '70's.
> ...


Paul, The 871 should work on any large cu/in motor! We are going 505 cu/in with 8.5:1 comp and 8lbs boost. Eric:cheers


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Instg8ter said:


> D ports are the most common, the round ports are on Ram Air and HO heads, most of which are too low a volume to get you down to 9.5:1 w/o port work and/or dished pistons, i believe bear is running Ram Air heads, also they require special exh. manifolds and headers which are very pricey.


I am indeed. To get the compression down to 9.46:1 on my 461 I had to do "some things" I really didn't want to do, but had to anyway. My pistons have 22 cc round (not D-shaped) dishes in them...








...and I'm running .075" compressed thickness Cometic head gaskets. Thank goodness I didn't zero-deck the block because I needed that .011" of deck height to help out. Of course, all that pretty much completely kills any quench area I might have had, but looking at the chambers on those 722's, they didn't have much to begin with:










I wanted to build a monster that I could pass off to the casual observer as the stock 400,  so that's why I went this route. I probably wouldn't have done this to run D-ports. I even painted the valve cover spacers engine color to try to disguise what's under the factory valve covers... :cool



















Of course, it's a little tough to maintain the charade once I start it up 

The headers weren't really any more expensive than D-port headers. Too bad the same doesn't hold true for the repop round port exhaust manifolds though...


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

Bear,

Nice valve cover spacers....(and all the other trick stuff). Saw your video as well....what a beast...(the motor).

So far, I've got a pretty decent lay of the land so to speak. At least in terms of how to think about engine/suspension/chassis upgrades etc.

Invariably, more questions arise about other items. Again, car will primarily be a cruiser, with some touring, and an occasional weekend at the dragstrip. 

If the car is driveable (pump gas) next spring, I'll probably put some shakedown miles on it before making any big moves on the motor...I'm searching for another 400 and the appropriate heads that I can build as a stroker.

The car is equipped with the PX code trans./hurst shifter. I believe it has 3.36 rear. Curious as to whether or not to have the stock trans. gone through, or replace with aftermarket, converter technology etc. 

Carburetor(s) is also a topic I have yet to delve into, so if you guys have some thoughts in that regard I'd like to hear them. Car currently has a 650 Speed Demon.

Lastly, going to store the car for Winter...wondering if I should put the car on blocks..

Any/All input appreciated as always..

Regards,
Paul


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

hurst dual gate auto?..nice set-up, like a stick when you want it...if you are going to switch the motor i would just flush trans and see how she runs while you shake it out and then you can have it done when you pull motor to put stroker in, will have a few days engine bay cleanup and if you get a trans guy lined up he may be able to turn it for you so you have less down time. you would want to have the converter flashed for your new motor specs anyways so until you get that dialed in you won't know what stall you want. thats a nice gear for street/strip, will still let you run on the highway w/o an overdrive trans and still be pretty quick of the line. 
As for carbs Most swear by the Quadrajets if they are re-built right, i went Edelbrock because i got a great deal on it, think you will need a little more carb for the stroker 750 -800, your manifold will do fine, stock are just as good as the aftermarket dual planes. 
Storage - Is your garage/storage heated? if so no need, hate having car on blocks, i use rolling tire jacks on the back, 5 kicks on each side and they allow me to swivel the car out from, and back into the wall with one hand when i need room to work around it, and the wife still gets to park her (unmentionable) inside for the cold michigan winter. Saves me having to scrape her windows too It is amazing the amount of space these things take up when they are in pieces....LOL

heres the jacks, if you watch you can get them for 59.99 ea

1250 Lb. Capacity Mechanical Wheel Dolly

Thanks G8tr....

Did you go with the 2" drop spindle, or stay with stock?

Hope dinner was enjoyable...

Now get back to work on that hot-rod...

Paul 

I went standard, like the muscle car look with the taller dunlop GT- Radial T/A tires so i did not want to go too low, and with the bigger engine it should squat some anyways, need to watch tire clearance when you get taller and wider, inner lips on the fenders are 1 1/2". i just clear with 245/60/15 w/o having to jack up the rear think the perfect rear offset would be around 4 - 4.5 " for widest tire, mine are 3.5, fronts may be tight won't know until i set the engine in, if i have to go a little smaller on the tire it will give it some rake anyways, and a spare set to burn off the back...


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

The GTO has landed!

The car has arrived, and looks to be sound overall...A good solid rust free California car. Starts and runs good (even with the 14 degree weather). Everything is in working order, and on a short hop around the neighborhood, drives nicely. 

Suspension is a bit squishy, so I'll probably start there. Springs, shocks, bushings, tie-rods etc. 

Any advice on springs/shocks? I know KYB seems to be popular here. I basically want to restore original ride height/handling. I've seen the discussions regarding rubber/poly bushings for the rear, as well as rear control arms. 

Will probably go with boxed control arms/adjustable uppers. I'm curious as to how much the poly bushings will stiffen the ride. I guess I'd like to split the difference between keeping it comfortable and improving the handling a bit.

All in all very satisfied with the car... It definitely needs some TLC here and there, but a good balance between great looking/driveable car, with plenty of projects to tackle over time.

Regards,
Paul


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Fxnjetz said:


> I know KYB seems to be popular here. I basically want to restore original ride height/handling. I've seen the discussions regarding rubber/poly bushings for the rear, as well as rear control arms.
> 
> Will probably go with boxed control arms/adjustable uppers. I'm curious as to how much the poly bushings will stiffen the ride. I guess I'd like to split the difference between keeping it comfortable and improving the handling a bit.


Nice! 
Replacing the relatively soft rubber bushings with polyurethane will go a long way towards firming up the ride. They don't make the ride harsher, they just take the "slop" out of the things so that handling ought to feel tighter, more responsive, and less tentative. Also, if those are the original springs they've probably softened up considerably over the years. Replacing them with new ones will probably make a big difference.

Enjoy it...

Bear


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Nice ride Paul, now get it out of the snow!!!!!....stock springs should do fine, Moog, or Eaton if you want factory ride height. Poly bushings will tighten up the feel like Bear said and give you responsive handling. should be just fine if you don't plan on carving canyons with it, same with 68-72 disc conversion, economical and effective. Just could not see dropping an extra grand for a few extra feet of stopping power, and stock calipers look nice painted too...


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

Bear/G8tr,

Thanks for your comments...

I have been looking at the aftermarket brake stuff from Baer/Willwood/SSbc etc.
Think I may end up staying with the GM swap...I believe the current spindles will work.

Still shopping around for control arms...just looked at some stuff from Spohn performance...

Other random stuff, dash will have to come out...all the intruments/lighting work, but lens (lexan? Plexi?) is a bit discolored, and woodgrain laminate is bubbled up in spots.

Anyone know what interior paint (black) was used? Not sure what finish was used, if it was gloss or semi gloss originally. 

Thanks again,
Paul


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## BillGTO (Oct 16, 2009)

my interior is semi gloss. Great looking car. We got our first dose of road salt this week here in Pa, so the car is in for the winter now.

Have fun with it.


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

Bill,

Thanks for the info...Nice Goat as well...

Paul


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Paul, Nice GTO!!!!! You can get new lenses for your dash from OPGI.....If you need Gaure resto work, check out Pete Serio's work Precision Pontiac.....congrats on a nice car! eric:cheers


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

the wood inlay can be done w/o taking dash out, just have to remove accessory bezels (not as easy as it appears), i would try lens polish first then restorer, we used to use Mirror glaze to polish lexan at a shop i ran, if that fails, off with the dash, am trying to avoid taking mine apart, as it looks like it could be a real pain in the a**. As far as the dash, I believe the top part was matte black from factory for glare and lower parts were 60% gloss (satin black). hows the chrome around the gauges? thats the hardest part as when they did them they chromed the whole thing and painted the black in, no real way to restore other than using a bright silver paint (no paints are good "chrome" no matter what they say). i did mine while in the car, but the rest of the interior was out and is a lot of masking, and re-masking.










this is custom pad w/gauges i am working on now


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

Instg8tr,

Looks like quite a project....

The chrome on mine is in good shape. the inlay is bubbled up and peeling from the dash surface. The gauges themselves look okay, the lenses are badly yellowed/fogged.

I have used mirror glaze on plastics with good result, but I think it might be tough to buff/polish the instrument lenses in place without damaging the surrounding material. 

I see that opgi has the vinly applique, as well as an actual walnut veneer piece. Is yours the wood veneer? did you stain/seal it? Or did you have another source for the inlay?

The "wood grain" on my center console is also in bad shape, so I'll be replacing that as well. I want consistency between the dash/console, but haven't seen the wood veneer for the console, only the vinyl.


Paul


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

mine is the real walnut with about 12 coats of poly clear from Ames, the fitting is a little tricky, if i were to do it again i would buy the one with alum backer, its a bit more but it will help keep it flat while you spray it. I believe they only did the consoles in vinyl in 67'. if you use a mothers polishing ball and mask your gauge bezels you should be able to buff them out as the yellowing should only be on the outside.

I have been searching for a wood rally wheel but they are EXPENSIVE!!!, may go with the Grant wheel, they are around 140.00 and are very nice if not original, amazing how that walnut classes up the interior.

heres the whole build, been at it since sept 1st, had my car trucked in from Idaho, can't find rust free cars in Michigan. Where you out of Paul, see you have snow like us. Gives us an excuse to tear them apart for repairs over the winter...lol

1966 Tempest pictures by instg8ter - Photobucket


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

Instg8tr,

Thanks for the info.

Like I said, thats quite the project youve got....

What are you intending for the car...cruiser? show?

We are just outside of Chicago...

Paul


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

FUN!!!!!....lol, mainly cruiser, started thinking i would do clone but when i got it and seen how original it was I decided to do Muscle car style tempest as you never see them around anymore. This is the car i almost got as a 16 year old (ended up with a 69'firebird) so i guess i am going about it as i would have back then, all be it with a few more dollars. I am doing some mods but nothing that cannot be undone easily, and keeping all original parts.

I lived in Addison IL for a short time in the mid 80's....when i had my firebird daily driver, remember some hellish cold weather, and that is from someone that grew up in MI...lol, that wind off the lake is a killer.

have a merry x-mas Paul, how could you not when Santa left a Goat under your tree


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## Fxnjetz (Nov 29, 2010)

Instg8tr,

And a very Merry Xmas to you as well...

Goat in the Garage....Fuzzy dice on the Xmas Tree...Kids keep bugging me for ideas...told them a new (heated) Garage would be nice....

My first car was actually a hand me down 65 Tempest w/six cylinder..Dad bought it new, I got it in '71...drove it till I bought my first 67 gto (for 800.00) in 75....

Always loved the Pontiacs...

Paul


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

gave my girl the ames book with highlighter all over it...lol


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