# Sticky  Bodywork Basics '72 GTO



## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

I'm in work on my first restoration project, a 1972 GTO. I've got a lot of rust and corrosion, several layers of paint and a full engine rebuild ahead of me. But first the basics.... when I strip the paint and sand out the rust/corrosion and get down to shiny metal, I know I need to get it primed soon. Since I'm doing it a bit at a time, should I be priming as I go (same day) or do it when I get a complete panel done? Can I use spray can self etching primer if I'm doing it that way? Is there a preferred brand? Any help would be greatly appreciated!


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Use some laquer primer on it, so it will stop rust, but you can sand it right back off when you do more sanding on the panel. Then, seal prime the car when the body work is done. I wouldn't use spray can primer, as real paints thinner can thin it and ruin the paint job.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*What size Air Compressor*

From you guys who have been doin' this a while... how big does my air compressor need to be? I would like to be able to sand, cut, blast and blow. I've seen some pretty good deals on 3 hp/30 gal compressors. Is that big enough or do I need (a) more horsepower or (b) bigger air chamber ... or both? Thanks. I've been making good progress with an electric drill, 4 inch grinder and hand tools, but to cut the rot out for metal repair and ultimately grinding the welds, I expect I'll need air. Attached a few pics of where we ended up today. Got the back glass out (WITHOUT breaking it!!).


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Figure out what ever the amount of maximum amount of air usage for the tools running at one time, their combined consumption should equal the output of the new air compressor.

Love LOVE LOVE that hood!!!! Screams aggression!! :cheers


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

You are doing a great job, keep it up!!!


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

i use spray can etching primer that i buy from the automotive paint store. there are several good brands, just stay away from the cheap stuff.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

66tempestGT said:


> i use spray can etching primer that i buy from the automotive paint store. there are several good brands, just stay away from the cheap stuff.


I took my car to the body shop and they had laquer pop in a couple places and blamed it on spray can primer, even though I didn't prime there. Better to just get better primer or sand it off prior to paint. All products have to be compatible to get the best paint job.


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

Get the biggest compressor you can afford unless you only are going to do just this one car. I have a 5hp two stage and it shuts off while I am running the DA and I stop to change sandpaper discs. 

Looks like you are doing a good job of it, just be careful not to heat the metal too much, or you will have lots of waves in it. Wire brushes on a drill can do that easily, and it takes days and days of blocking primer to get it flat again.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

"spray can primer" is a pretty broad description. there is good stuff and cheap stuff available in spray cans. etching primer has no filling properties and is only used to prevent rust on bare metal. its not meant to be painted directly over but primed with good primer instead. it would be silly to spend your time stripping a panel just to prime it with laquer then strip it again later.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

if you buy your stuff from an automotive paint supply store they know whats compatible and will tell you.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*Made a Little Progress*

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions. Haven't had much time to work on the '72, but did manage to remove the front end for stripping/cleaning, get some primer on the door and remove most of the old roof panel. Have a new roof panel coming from Year One... hope it shows up in the next week or so. Will keep you posted. Also got a full shipment of POR-15 product, so should be able to clean up those floorboards and trunk next week.


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

Looks like there is some rust by the front body mount I would check it out also that panel could be a nice start on welding practice.


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

I am bad jealous you have a nice garage to work in. When I was your age I had the gravel drive way extension past the house to work in. My parents wouldn't let me use the garage more then a week like once a year.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

what are the "rents" going to think of it this time next year.


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## 68Resto-mod (Nov 10, 2009)

I agree regarding the self etch primer. It will seal things up until you can get it primed. I left my 68 body shell bare metal for weeks in my garage till I was ready for epoxy primer. I kept a dehumidifier going full time. After I got all the seam sealer out, I hit the entire shell with a DA and 80 grit. I then wiped it all down twice with wax and grease remover. Then I wiped it down again. 

As long as the metal is roughed up from sand blasting or DA sanding, you can spray epoxy primer directly. Smooth metal will require etch primer first. DO NOT PUT BONDO DIRECTLY ON METAL. "Metal-to-metal" type fillers are fine. They are not talc based and will not hold moisture. Put down two good voats of epoxy primer and do all your bondo work over it.

I bought a 60 gallon tank, single stage compressor with about 10 CFM output. It is not enough for finish painting but good for priming and all my air tools. A wish it was bigger. My spray gun is a DeVilbiss Finish Line setup with multiple tips so I can spray from clear to high build primer. 

Stay with it and stay focused. You have youth on your side. At age 56, block sanding is painful but I still love it!
Enjoy!!


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Thanks REsto Mod... I've been priming after sanding/stripping with spray can primer. May end up sanding it all again, then applying epoxy primer. That's a lot of Air Compressor, not sure I can afford that right now. Making good progress, didn't get up pictures from last week, but hope to get some from this week.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

I got a 25 gallon compressor with a oil bath pump-quieter. I run a 20 gallon tank for reserve. I can paint fine with it, sometimes the DA will run it down pretty quick, but for everything else this is more than enough compressor.
Nice project, keep at it!


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*Little more work done - lots to go*

Got a little more work done today. Right rear quarter panel cut off, need a lot of grinding before welding on the new panel... then the roof panel. Couple of pics of our work today. Encouraging to see it with the new panels in place, even if they're not welded in yet.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Got a cool stool to sit on while driving :rofl: It's a pain having to roll it in and out of the garage every time we work on it. No worries though, got the engine started today!


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Ah, so the helper shows up... Great project and looks like it is coming along great, congrats!!


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

a lot of progress going on there. cover that glass with something, grinding and welding sparks will ruin it. :cheers


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## BYTOR84 (Mar 20, 2009)

WOW!! you are moving along quick..it looks great. I have a 72 Gto that has been sitting outside for 15 yrs or so. It is in very rough shape. Looks like yours was in pretty rough shape when you got it. I know 72 Gtos are kinda rare. I never see one at car shows and such. I am going to sell my 72 so I can put the $$ towards my 67 GTO. I hate to ask but would you mind telling me what you paid for that 72 GTO so I can get a ball park figure as to what to ask for mine. If you would rather you can send me a private message. 
again it looks like it is coming along GRRRREAT! keep posting the pics.

thanks


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## BYTOR84 (Mar 20, 2009)

p.s. just wondering...where are you located??


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## 1970 Lemans (Jul 25, 2009)

stracener,

Nice job! You're really moving along.

You mentioned that you got the new roof panel from Year One. Is the new quarter panel also from Year One, or another vendor?

TIA

Again nice work.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

The roof panel was from year one and 1/4 panel from Performance Years. Big mistake, should have ordered them at the same time... shipping nearly cost as much as the panels  
It's coming along nicely, hope to get a little done during this week and then work it hard over the weekend. 

I just couldn't figure out how to get that window out of the back... but agree I do need to cover it up.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*Bytor*

BYTOR - bought the car for $2800 from a guy just outside Philly. I'm located in Norfolk, VA. Didn't know quite the extent of the damage to the shell when I bought it, the top was covered in a ripped vinyl. Here's a link to how it looked when I bought it.
MobileMe Gallery


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## 1970 Lemans (Jul 25, 2009)

stracener,

Thanks. 

From your picture, the quarter looks real nice. My sense is that the newer repro's have substantially improved, making puchase of very expensive NOS panels highly questionable.

What is your opinion as to its quality, was it close to a staight fit, did you need to do any significant modifying, if any at all?


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## BYTOR84 (Mar 20, 2009)

wow thanks for the great pics and the info. You are doing a hell of a job on that car. It will great when your done. I am just over the bridge from Philly. $2800. sounds like a fair price for that car. 
Were you looking specifically for a'72 ? and did you have a hard time finding a '72 ?

thanks again


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*Anyone identify this compartment*

I'm not sure what the function of this area is... found it after pulling the fenders. Rusted out at the bottom, BIG birds nest and a bunch of trash at the bottom of it. Other side is rusted out at bottom as well. I'm looking to rebuild it, but not sure if I should make it a chamber that drains or solid chamber. It seems that rain will get in there from the hood vents, no matter what. This is a little confusing.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*Bytor*

bytor: I was only looking for a GTO (any year) I could afford to purchase. Of all GTO's, '72 would not be my preference simply because it marked the year GTO sales took a dive(and motors performed poorly!)! 

At any rate, HP was down on the motors, GTO was only an option (not a model) and the overall view of muscle cars was waning in the country. 

But that doesn't matter now, because chic's dig muscle cars! 

So a $2,800 GTO works, if I can build it into something that sounds cool and moves quickly off the stoplight. That's how I ended up with the '72. 

There are probably many better models, but I hope to build mine to achieve the legacy of the others... still in work...


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

I'll have to wait to answer that question 1970 because I haven't actually welded it in place yet. The photos posted were just where I put the panel to store it (had to get it out of my house's guest room!!). I hope to weld it in place in a week or two, have to borrow the neighbor's MIG welder. And I have to practice welding before installing it. I'll post pics when it's done. 

First impression is that the panel is very well fitted, and very well formed.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

stracener said:


> . And I have to practice welding before installing it. I'll post pics when it's done. .


I would practice somewhere else besides on your car, this is time to find a pro and then you practice on the bondo, then let the pro step in and finish it. Just my 2 cents..
Car is coming along great.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

stracener said:


> I'm not sure what the function of this area is... found it after pulling the fenders. Rusted out at the bottom, BIG birds nest and a bunch of trash at the bottom of it. Other side is rusted out at bottom as well. I'm looking to rebuild it, but not sure if I should make it a chamber that drains or solid chamber. It seems that rain will get in there from the hood vents, no matter what. This is a little confusing.


originally it had small drain holes but birds nests and trash coming in from the top tend to plug up the holes and cause your problem. keep up the good work! :cheers


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*Finally Welding*

Well, we're finally starting to weld. Been at a holding point, doing some planning, saving some $$ so we can make improvements, and buying tools. This weekend is dedicated to welding practice. It's been 20+ years since I last welded, so it took me some time to get back into it. Then I had to teach my son the basics. From protective equipment to procedural action, we worked hard today. 

We've got a full roof panel, quarter panel, and passenger side floor board to weld in. Additionally, if his skills are good enough, we'll weld up two fender patches up front and one quarter panel patch on the other quarter. That's a lot to do before we even get started on the interior and motor. It's his to do, and he seems to be rising to the challenge. At the end of the day today, he made welds that held when subjected to the test of destruction! 

It is going well. What a great father son project. Andrew is now 15 and this is his baby. He is doing the hard work, and persevering through the tough spots (of sanding/grinding/more sanding/grinding). Now if we can get the floorboard, rear quarter and roof in...
Still workin' -- Dave
:shutme


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Still workin'. Flux core welding seems to burn holes in this metal. We'll keep practicing, but will likely need to move to gas shielded MIG instead of the flux core. Can't seem to get a reliable weld with this. Either burning a hole, or not getting both pieces welded together. Frustrating..... of course it's been 20 years since I took welding class  Any suggestions = MIG vs Flux Core?
Davearty:


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

All my body work buddies refuse to use a flux core for body work. Even if the weld is nice, any flux left in the weld will cause corrosion. If it is burning holes in the metal, and you are going to use it, turn down the amperage and turn up the feedrate, faster feed is less heat to metal. Good luck.


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

Another sticky! Nice Job!


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

jetstang said:


> All my body work buddies refuse to use a flux core for body work. Even if the weld is nice, any flux left in the weld will cause corrosion. If it is burning holes in the metal, and you are going to use it, turn down the amperage and turn up the feedrate, faster feed is less heat to metal. Good luck.


:agree getting the machine set right is the key. also when welding sheet metal you will want to just weld in little squirts (a couple seconds welding, then a couple seconds to cool) this will help to not blow holes.


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## freethinker (Nov 14, 2009)

stracener said:


> Still workin'. Flux core welding seems to burn holes in this metal. We'll keep practicing, but will likely need to move to gas shielded MIG instead of the flux core. Can't seem to get a reliable weld with this. Either burning a hole, or not getting both pieces welded together. Frustrating..... of course it's been 20 years since I took welding class  Any suggestions = MIG vs Flux Core?
> Davearty:


throw away the fluxcore. you can do a nice job with wire and gas but fluxcore just sucks for thin metal.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Bought a Lincoln HandyMig and some argon/Co2 gas off craigslist this weekend and that made all the difference. Welds are much better. Got about 75% of the floorpan done, will get some pics up after we finish it up this weekend (I hope). Thanks for the tips!


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Does anyone know about the fender extractor on the'72 GTO? We'll be welding in patch panels on both fenders (originals rotted and had no extractors) and am looking for the air extractor. I have not seen them at Year One or OPGI, do you think the 85-91 Trans Am extractor is the same? Or close? Any '72 GOAT owners, please help.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Anyone installed a pair of 2005 GTO seats in a '72? I'm trying to figure out how to engineer the base. How did you weld it in, bolt it in? 

Also need help in the electrical set up ... electrical adjustable 2005 seats in a 1972 setup. 

In addition, how can you (or, is it possible) anchor the shoulder belt? 

Great seats, hope I can get 'em mounted and operational. ( I already own 'em!)


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*Floor Pans in - Next Up...rear quarter and roof!*

Floor Pans Done !! Andrew (my son) welded it in on Saturday morning and we slather'd it in with POR-15 before we departed town on Saturday afternoon. No work on the GTO other that that this weekend. Next up... rear quarter... then the roof. We'll be puttin' the interior in before you know it. And tearing down the engine!!!:cheers


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

lookin good!


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Ended up being one of those weekends that you work a lot and it doesn't really show. Andrew (my son) and I stripped and sanded the passenger side door (the last bastion of paint left on the car) and prepared, grinded, sanded and fitted the rear quarter panel. I think we've got it ready to weld, but didn't have enough clamps to effectively hold it in place as we begin to tack it in. We also still need to drill the holes to weld in to. Sanded more of the paint off of the Endura bumper... man that is a slow process. Almost there though. Lot of work, no photo's to show for it!


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

little screws work well when you dont have enough clamps. plus you can screw it up tight and check all your gaps before you start welding.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*Got 'er done!*

Big progress today - got the rear quarter panel welded on. My son, Andrew, made all the welds and did a nice job. The quarter panel (purchased online from Performance Years) fit well and required very little trimming to weld together. Used c-clips and self-tapping sheet metal screws to hold the panel in the right place while welding (thanks 66tempestGT!).
Next up we'll weld on the roof panel. As long as we can get it fitted properly, this should be a very straightforward task. The sticky discussion in the restoration forum about how to do sheet metal and welding work ( found at: http://www.gtoforum.com/f83/autobody-welding-sheet-metal-fab-tips-tricks-19473/ ) was very helpful to us since this is the first restoration project we've taken on. Additionally, thanks to all who provided information and tips in this thread. Here are some pics of a 15 year old who has a vested interest in getting his GTO put together.:cool


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## Josh.AZ.GTO (Jul 11, 2009)

I'm looking forward to hearing how the roof comes together. My 70 GTO has a sunroof (that I want removed) put in by a previous owner. I'm not sure if it's worth it to try to patch the hole or remove the old roof altogether and install a new roof skin. 

Progress looks great, your 72 is coming along quite nicely.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

About 75% complete with the roof panel tonight. All welds across the back window, passenger side drip rail and about 3/4 of the way across the windshield. We're getting the hang of this welding stuff, things seem to be going well. Need a new tip for the welder, so will pick that up this week and finish up the sheet metal work next weekend. Completed all the grinding on the welds we've done. Overall, the roof panel fit very well, and all that's needed is the final welds. More pics coming soon. Gonna order carpet and dash pad next week!
Dave


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Gonna finish up that roof welding this weekend, try to figure out how to mount those seats... that could take a while... and try to fit in some "trick or treat". Hope to post some photos by Sunday.
Davearty:


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*Happy Halloween !!*

Well, we started to weld the top on... but ran outta wire. Andrew still figured out a way to work his GTO into halloween. Haunted trunk! Played a lot of scary music, had different neighborhood kids jump out of the trunk on command to scare the trick or treaters! Worked out pretty well. STill need to weld the final 1/4 of the top ... maybe next week. I love this stuff!


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Funny, was it poopin spaghetti? Great project!


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*Finished the Roof*

Finished up a few welds on the roof and now we're done! Moved on into the engine and ran into trouble!! Check out the damage this broken valve did to the piston... not sure what is below that. Will start that rebuild soon. Got a nice set of 87cc Ebrocks to bolt on, but we'll need to work the bottom first. :willy:

On the body we will still need to get the front fenders correct, need the fender extractors. I think I saw a set recently in some classifieds, but I've got to keep prioritizing the expenses!:lol::lol:

At this point, we'll be working the fitment of the '05 electric leather seats, putting in the rattletrap Xtreme sound deadner, put in the headliner and carpet, then the rest of the interior trim. All the while having the motor block inspected, honed, etc... and getting ready to rebuild it. Lots to do, making progress though!


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*Finished the Roof*

Well, we finished the roof and peeked under the hood. As you can see, Andrew found a whole bunch of junk there! Piston shattered, valve broke in half, not sure how the bottom half will look. More later.arty:


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

it was running when i parked it.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Impressive work!

If you don't mind, let me make a suggestion:
Kevin Tetz, one of the hosts on the Trucks! TV show has a *killer* set of DVD's/Videos out that I've found to be worth their weight in gold working on my 69. Like you, I've done every once of the body work myself and I knew -nothing- about it when I started.
You can get them here:
Kevin Tetz's Paintucation OFFICIAL SITE

Another recommendation is to join and participate in the forum he runs.
Kevin Tetz's Paintucation Forum

Kevin's on there are lot and there are several other guys who are really sharp and always willing to help.

Without both the DVD's and that forum, I would have probably made a mess out of my 69.

Great job!

Bear


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

66tempestGT said:


> it was running when i parked it.


Yeah, it never made a noise!!


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## firecatsrt (Sep 15, 2008)

stracener said:


> On the body we will still need to get the front fenders correct, need the fender extractors. I think I saw a set recently in some classifieds, but I've got to keep prioritizing the expenses!:lol::lol:



Are you talking about the two vents behind the front wheels? if so, I may have a pair laying around. I can look.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Yeah, the guy I bought it from said he thought it had a "hole in the piston" because it was really loud... I was thinking it was a finger type hole from detonation. Not a complete destruction of the valve train and piston... and probably crank. No excuse now not to put in that stroker 461 bottom end (4.25 Eagle kit!) with the 87cc Ebrock heads we just bought. Got to get up to my dad's house in Wisconsin (we're in Norfolk, VA) to pick up the parts, but that's cool - that's a full 3 generations now involved in rebuilding this Goat! My dad, me and my son!
I'll keep you all posted. And I actually started this motor and ran it for 1-2 minutes after I got it home.. I'm sure that didn't help anything!

Anyone know if I have to unbolt the xmsn first or just the driveshaft and pull the motor and tranny at the same time? I've got a service manual in the garage, so I'll check that before starting, just looking for any "best practices" type tips in pulling the engine.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*firecatsrt*

firecatsrt, 
Yes, the extractors are that vent behind the front wheels. My front fenders were rotted, and not the right ones for the '72, so I've got some patch panels. Will need to incorporate the fender extractors, and was looking at some 85-91 T/A extractors, but I think those are not quite right. If you've got a set off a GTO, let me know.
Dave


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

stracener said:


> Anyone know if I have to unbolt the xmsn first or just the driveshaft and pull the motor and tranny at the same time? I've got a service manual in the garage, so I'll check that before starting, just looking for any "best practices" type tips in pulling the engine.


It's worth trying. In my experience you're more likely to have success pulling it out that way than reinstalling it that way. My son and I spent quite a bit of effort trying to reinstall my engine/tranny together and no matter what we tried, we couldn't get it far enough back so that the motor mounts would drop over the frame mounts. We wound up installing them separately. we might have been successful if we'd put the motor mounts on the frame then bolted them to the block after dropping in the engine/trans.

Bear


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## firecatsrt (Sep 15, 2008)

I checked, don't see them anywhere, not sure what happened to them. I will keep looking though.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

pull the crossmember. you will need some wiggle room. my guess is the crank is fine, but the block is cracked.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*Cylinder wall cracked*

I don't know too much about motors, but I'm pretty sure this block is not able to be reused. Crack in the cylinder wall is pretty evident. I'm assuming from the evidence of corrosion the crack goes all the way through allowing coolant to pour into the cylinder. When we drained the oil it was definitely contaminated. Ouch.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Yep, I'd say that was a crack. If there's some reason that you really want to use that block (f'r instance, if it's the original numbers matching block and you want to preserve it) then it can probably be bored and sleeved to repair the damage. Otherwise, it might be cheaper to just find another block.

Bear


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

I'd say I'm in the market for a block. Okay, back to the body work and interior until the bank account can heal a little...


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Is there any marks on the piston to tell if the block is std, .030 or .060 over bored? You can get it sleeved for $150ish. If it's standard bore, and you can go .030 sleeving is a good option as long as it didn't hurt anything else. What is the motor, year and such.. I got a 400 in my garage, 76 with 6X-4 heads, needs a cam, I'll let go for $400. Ran great, ticked..


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Been a while since I posted here. Sorry. I did manage to get a new block, nice 72 455 w/4 bolt mains. Have ordered most of the guts, so hopefully December will be the month to bring it to life.

On the bodywork, managed to fabricate the seat mounts, that has taken a lot of brain power (working with a small brain), and a lot of metal mock ups, but got them fitted pretty well. Can't find my camera, but will get some pics pretty soon. Also renovated the rear package tray and cleaned out the inside. Carpet is here, waiting on the headliner (already ordered, should come soon). Should be getting some photos of the interior coming back together. Still struggling with the electrical to the seats, the seats I'm installing (2005 GTO power leather) have a strange connection I can't quite get figured out... Still working.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Nice. which heads are you planning to run on the 455? What internals did you get?

Bear


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Here's where I'm sitting with the engine rebuild right now Bear...
I think I may have bought a little too much and have to readjust, but want to put it together and give it a shot. These are the parts I have on hand ready to install. I still need a couple of things and then start bolting it all together...I'm calculating the CR at about 10.5:1 on eheads I think that will work with 93 octane. But feel like the cam may be too big.

Eagle 4.250" crank with Eagle 6.800" 4340 3-D Steel H Beam Rods
SRP Forged flat top aluminum pistons,& piston pins with plasma moly file fit piston rings
Clevite 77 Rod and Main Bearings
Rotating Assy Internally Balanced
ATI Race Harmonic Balancer

Edelbrock 87cc Aluminum Heads 
Edelbrock Victor Intake (ported to heads, crossover removed)
Book Racing custom 850 cnc  Competition Carb (modified Holley)
Crower 1.65 Roller Rockers
Comp Cams Chrome Moley Push Rods 7791 9.4 0.80
Moroso Valve Covers
Mildon Oil Pump w/pu
Milidon Oil Pan 
Griffin Custom Aluminum Radiator
Hooker Super Comp Headers (2" pipes, 3.25" collector) :shutme

Comp Cam 308R .575/.575 @.050 .262/.262 adv 308 duration LSA 110 
Herbert solid roller lifters
CSR Performance 921 - CSR Billet Aluminum Electric Water Pump

Still need:
Timing chain kit (have original)
Distributor (have original)
Fuel Pump (have original)
Torque Converter 3500-4,000 (need a little $$ to get that ATI converter that's on the PY board right now!!!)
Gaskets (headers, intakes, mains, valve covers)
Would like electric fan (have original clutch fan), not sure we'll get there before Christmas.

I think the rear gears are 3.56. 

A lot of potential here, still a lot of work to go.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

stracener said:


> Here's where I'm sitting with the engine rebuild right now Bear...
> I'm calculating the CR at about 10.5:1 on eheads I think that will work with 93 octane. But feel like the cam may be too big.
> 
> Eagle 4.250" crank with Eagle 6.800" 4340 3-D Steel H Beam Rods
> ...


I put your cam, headers, intake/carb into Engine Analyer and "ran" it. I used my head flow numbers (yours will probably be better than mine). You've definitely got a beast going there. With that cam it's not going to make any idle vacuum "at all" so you can forget about vacuum assisted power brakes or vacuum operated air-conditioner, etc. Those 2" headers are going to cost you some low end torque, but you get some of it back on the upper end. With the 2" you'll reach 500 ft. lbs of torque at about 3500 rpm and climb from there. Peak power happens at 5700 rpm (around 560 HP) and hangs on pretty well all the way to 7000, so this is definitely a high rpm motor. Hopefully that's a forged crank you've got, otherwise you're going to be "on the edge". Make sure those roller lifters have provisions for direct oiling to the needle bearings and don't just rely on splash from the rest of the valve train. You're also going to want to put in a set of lifter bore oiling restrictors to redirect some of the oil to the mains and rods, where you're going to need it - since you're running solids and won't need the oil on top to operate hydraulic lifters. This thing is definitely going to be quick enough so that tracks and sanctioning bodies are going to require you to have a roll bar.

I ran your dimensions through my spreadsheet, and made some assumptions:
.040 compressed head gaskets
4.160 head gasket bore
"zero deck"
6 cc's in the piston valve reliefs
That worked out to 10.270:1 --- definitely not "too much" with aluminum heads, especially not with that cam! If I missed on the valve reliefs and they're really only 3 cc's, then that's 10.551:1 - still not too much with that cam because the dynamic cr is only 6.50:1, theoretical cranking pressure at 150 psi. In fact, you could probably get away with a little more compression, and even "advance" the cam some to pull the torque curve a little lower in the rpm range if you wanted to. With the right suspension and slicks so you can get it to hook, 10's are definitely within reach. It's going to have the manners of a race motor moreso than those of a street motor. Which rear axle are you going to use? This thing will shred a 10-bolt in minutes...
You're also going to want to either run a fuel cell or add a rear sump to your existing tank, run at least 1/2" fuel line, and use either a very good mechanical pump or a good electric. You'll also want to go through your TH400 and make sure it's got the heavy 34-element sprag and good frictions.

...it never ends... 

Bear


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

it will shred a 10 bolt "if it hooks"


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Great info guys. Thanks for the full analysis Bear!! A bit more motor than I had planned... as a result I had not considered the 10 bolt rear and fuel issue. I'll talk with the local machine shop guy about those oil mods too before we bolt it all together. Thanks for the assistance!
Dave


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

stracener said:


> Great info guys. Thanks for the full analysis Bear!! A bit more motor than I had planned... as a result I had not considered the 10 bolt rear and fuel issue. I'll talk with the local machine shop guy about those oil mods too before we bolt it all together. Thanks for the assistance!
> Dave


I did mine myself, it's not hard of you're careful and measure as you go. You want to cut the threads deep enough to get the restrictor down far enough into the hole so there's no way it can touch the lifter, but you also want to leave some imperfect threads at the bottom of the hole to tighten the restrictor against. I cut my first one by turning the tap just one round at a time until I got the restrictor just deep enough, then I put a reference mark on the tap so I'd know when I was getting close to the correct depth on the rest of them.

Here are a few photos from when I did mine:









































Bear


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Thanks Bear. Is that plug solid or does it have a hole in it? The pictures are great, I understand the process and the theory now.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Are you really sure you want to build a very limited street motor for your car? That motor would be very happy in a bracket car..


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

stracener said:


> Thanks Bear. Is that plug solid or does it have a hole in it? The pictures are great, I understand the process and the theory now.


They have a small hole drilled in them. You don't want to completely block the oil to the lifter bore, it still needs lubrication - and some solid rollers have passages that feed oil to the roller bearings - so you still need "some" oil. You just don't need as much as it takes to operate a hydraulic lifter, so why waste it when it can be better used on the mains and rods?

Various sizes of restrictors are used, depending on if the engine is being built for the street, race-only, etc.

Hot tip: If you decided to do these and do them yourself, do it BEFORE you take the block up for the rest of the machine work. That way you'll get multiple chances at getting the block completely clean and making sure there aren't any metal chips left in any of the oil passages. Too, if you coat your tap with heavy grease, it will tend to collect the chips instead of letting them fall into the passages - but still thoroughly clean them anyway.

On my block, I removed all the press in "freeze plug" type oil passage plugs and replaced them with screw in plugs. It turns out that a 3/8" NPT fits them perfectly, after you cut the threads of course.

Bear


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Jetstang, I know this is a bit too much motor for my father/son street car project... but it's where we are at now and with most all the parts here, we're hoping to get it running before the new year. I Think I'll even have my dad here for that, making it a 3 generation GTO! It will be a continual work in progress, but we can detune if needed, swapping the intake and cam, perhaps the carb later will not be hard if it's just too much for street driving. But...that may not be needed!! We'll see how she goes. arty:

It's a journey. And we're enjoying the trip for sure!.
Dave


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Is that a 461 your building? If it is, how much is the rotating assembly only.. I just put the 350 in my 70, and it's pretty weak, and I have a 400 with 6X-4 heads sitting around. Stroker would make it cooolll..
No vacuum and a 3500 stall for a street car is pretty huge stuff. A more drivable car is a cam swap away. 
I have a nice 468 in my truck, but I put a "small" hydraulic cam in it for gas mileage, .510lift, 270 duration, 112 LSA, Forged TRW pistons w/1.50 dome, ported LS-5 Heads w/2.19 valves. The truck is quick but a cam swap away from being BAADD. I just built on the conservative side, gas was $4 a gallon, and it's a drivable daily vehicle that runs 13's with a 2200 stall and gear vendors. And gets 11 MPG, woo hoo!


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

jetstang said:


> Is that a 461 your building? If it is, how much is the rotating assembly only..


Yes sir, it is. I started with my numbers-matching YS 400 and went from there. The heads aren't original though, and to be honest they've caused me some "head"aches to be able to run them on this 461 and still have a reasonable compression ratio ---- but, I bought them a long time ago and I REALLY wanted to use them so I did what I had to. They're real 1969 #722 Ram Air IV's. I bought the lion's share of my parts, including the rotating assembly, from Jim Lehart at Central Virginia Machine Services. It's an Eagle cast crank, forged H-beam rods, KB/Icon forged pistons w/floating pins. Price was about the same as what you'll find at other sources, but I went with him because of his knowlege, attitude, and willingness to help me plan - and what I heard from others about the quality of his work. I got my cam, valve train, and "a bunch of other stuff" from him too so I may not have the cost of the rotating assembly alone broken out.

The engine has been "done" since September. Here's the dyno sheet. I'm especially fond of that torque curve 

Compression is at 9.46:1, dynamic CR will make it happy on 93 octane. It makes around 12"-13" of idle vaccum with the solid roller cam (236/242 @0.050 .377/.381 lobe lift, 110 LSA, installed at 106 ICL, 1.65 rockers), so I'm in the process right now of engineering my own hydroboost brake system.






It's running through a 3200 stall converter in front of a worked TH400 into a Moser 9" with 3.50's hung on a Wavetrac.

I'm working on finishing up the rest of the car now. Then I'll paint it, install the interior, and ENJOY it.

Bear


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

I meant Stacener, since it is his thread.
Nice build Bear.
Are stroker kits, $1K, $2K? I'm not looking for Aluminum heads, just a nice cruisable monster torque motor, lol..
I just looked cast stroker kit $1699, forged $1999 plus upgrades, cool stuff.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Bear, how did that dyno compare with what you had predicted from you computer analysis? 

Awesome torque on that 461 - nice sound too!


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

jetstang said:


> I just looked cast stroker kit $1699, forged $1999 plus upgrades, cool stuff.


Yeah, that's about what they run. You can find variances but they won't be huge. 6x-4's with their chamber size are just about perfect on a 461. Go with "a little less" cam than I have and you'll have a great torque motor that will also pull enough vacuum for brakes. With iron heads, you want your static compression ratio to be about 9.3:1 or less. My cam lets me push it a little due to a later intake closing event that helps manage cylinder pressure.

If you decide to pull the trigger, do contact Jim Lehart --- great guy who's very forthcoming with good information.

You won't need a forged crank unless you're running north of 650 HP or so, or going crazy with nitrous.

Bear


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Jetstang, my motor is a stroked 455 that's bored .030 over. That cubes out at 467 (455 with 4.25 stroke). 
I paid just over $1,500 for the rotating kit, balanced from cnc motorsports.
It's cast, pistons are forged, didn't realize it would generate quite this much hp. Will baby it ... right!
I know the gas mileage will be BAD, and maybe a little worse than that, but we've got a few other cars in the driveway to drive if longer trips are needed. Hope to get some work done this weekend!


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Definitely contact Central Virginia Machine Services, if you're considering motor work. He wrote Chapter 2 in Jim Hand's book "How to Build High Performance Pontiac V-8s" and also has a couple of recommended combos in the back. They've got the absolute best reputation of any Pontiac builder.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I never thought I'd find such a juicy engine build thread under "Bodywork Basics"!!! The photos and step-by-step by Bear are especially helpful. Glad I stumbled across this one...who knew?? Hell, I already KNOW how to sand the paint off a car. But oil restrictors? Seriously, great thread, keep 'em coming!!!! (and good luck with the build(s) ) !!!  And true, it never DOES end!!
Jeff


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

The motor is now at Virginia Speed getting some basic machine work done (needed someone close to home to work it) and should be back on the 7th of Jan (hopefully sooner, but we've had HUGE snow this week!). 
So my son and I have worked on finishing the seat mounts, slapping in the sound/insulation (dynomat rattle trap extreme -- THANKS crustysack for the tip!), carpet, install seats, and today worked the dash a little. The dash was a waste of time, but came out okay. Eventually we'll need to put a dash pad or replace the whole thing, but with more time for money we tried a little experiment. 
Here are some shots of the seat mounts and rattle trap. The measurements are on the passenger side, both sides are the same. I ended up making a bracket to mount the rear of the 2005 seats to the original mounts. Because the 05 seats are electric adjustments, the motors needed some clearance and the mount had to have some height to it, it's about 3/4 inch high.Made from a piece of angle iron and bolted in.
The biggest problem in getting this work done was I didn't know the seat bases could be removed from the seats and we were having a hulluva time fitting, marking, etc... Once we removed the seat bases and just worked with them it wasn't hard to fabricate.
The electrical confused us a bit too, but we ended up pulling the battery out of our Expedition, clipping on some test leads and hooking them to the 05 seats to figure out which pins went where. It worked, lucky we didn't burn up a seat back motor, but we did get 'er done. Seats are in and work fine.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Here are the seats in the car. We'll pull 'em back out to glue down the carpet and install the headliner, but they look pretty good. We've got the '05 back seat to match, but my son really wanted to keep the old back seat, so that's what you see in there.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

looking good Stracener, almost went that route, those are some nice seats


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

So we worked the dash a bit with body filler, POR15 porpatch and paint, and some sanding. Looks much better than the cracked up old dash that was there, and should do for a while until we can buy a replacement dash pad. Will be working it some more, and paint with a textured semi-gloss type black paint. Best we can do with materials on hand while the checkbook recovers from Christmas!
Dave


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*Not Body Work, But Progress*

Not much bodywork happening right now on the 72 GTO. We got the parts organized and mocked up the assembly of the 455 engine. Some pics here of my son working on the motor. We mocked it up last night and all went well. Disassembled it this morning and now have the cam installed, crank installed and torqued down w/rear seal installed. Pistons and rods will go in later this week. Pistons are all assembled and ringed. REady to go. More soon!


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

good work going on there Stacener, looks like you and the son are getting some great bonding time together and wait til you get to fight over who drives it first....LOL. On the dash pad, not sure about 72's but on my 66 the pad has a metal backer and as it was allready stripped of pad and vinyl i priced out getting it done also, ranged between 250 and 500 dollars. I ended up going to Joann fabrics and finding satin black vinyl and headliner foam. did the whole thing for around 50 in materials and a few hours labor. (step by step pics in my photobucket) was worried it would look like crap but for a 200 dollar savings i was game, came out rather well for a first attempt, so i found another backer a member had in his scrap pile and made another with three gauge pods incorporated in it for volt, water and oil gauges. will be stretching that one in a few weeks.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Instg8ter, can you post a link to your photobucket? Would love to see how you did it. I thought of the same thing, actually bought the material, then chickened out. May give it a shot now, will look at your instructions! We'll be driving this car to our first car show (not looking to win prizes, looking to meet some of the POntiac folks who have helped with this project!) in May. Should be able to redo the dash by then, especially if we can actually do it ourselves! Thanks for the tip!

I'm taking my son to get his drivers license learners permit tomorrow. Sad we wont be driving the goat, but it's time will come. And he'll drive it first (for about five minutes, then it's my turn)

Dave


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

No problem Dave Links at the bottom, PM me if you need any help, be happy to walk you through it, i am doing all work except machining myself also and trying to keep myself on a tight budget....LOL, yeah right, so anything i can save along the way will go back in for goodies. looks like yours is more squared off should be a peice of cake, the 66' - 67's have a lot of weird inside curves that make it tricky to stretch. secret is get the thin stretchy vinyl cost a little more but its tough as nail, hard to even cut with a utility knife. I am getting ready to stretch the one with the gauges in it next week i think so i may be doing it along with you, you and your boy keep up the good work. Where you located Dave? 

1966 Tempest pictures by instg8ter - Photobucket

Brian


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Thanks for the link Brian. Your car looks great - keep it up! I'm in Norfolk, VA.
Dave


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

cool dave give me a yell if you have any questions, have friends in Aylett, if i ever get down we'll have to meet up for a cruise....looking for trailer for travel:cheers


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*Motor went in to Dyno on Saturday*

Haven't posted here in a while, been a little slow with progress, but finally got the motor final assembly done and took it in for dyno test and tune at Virginia Speed here in the Hampton Roads area. 
Here's a couple of pics of the motor in mock up. I didn't take any after final assembly, but we added a 1.5" carb spacer and smoothed everything up. I'll let you know how it runs when we get it back. Then it's time to get this thing together and get it into paint!

Dave


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Engine Porn....., man Mr.P-body set you up right, that things gonna scream, i am about ready to drop mine too Dave, just finishing up the plumbing for brakes and trans. Bodywork is a long tedious job to get the long panels flat and straight (no waves) i used up to a 4' sanding block on some areas....i would say in total to get it where i think its ready (smooth to the touch with my eyes closed) for high build primer i have at least 150 hrs into it, and once i prime i will have one more blocking with guide coat down to 150 grit and then wet sanding to 5-600 grit before i can lay on a color. And my car was an all metal survivor with even gaps and no major panel work needed. Long story short, now i know why a GOOD paint job with body work can cost upwards of 20K. Will be priming it in the shop and renting a booth for color and clear....Keep up the good work Dave and keep us posted on the progress....let me know when you get ready to do that dash panel....:cheers


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

stracener said:


> Haven't posted here in a while, been a little slow with progress, but finally got the motor final assembly done and took it in for dyno test and tune at Virginia Speed here in the Hampton Roads area.
> Here's a couple of pics of the motor in mock up. I didn't take any after final assembly, but we added a 1.5" carb spacer and smoothed everything up. I'll let you know how it runs when we get it back. Then it's time to get this thing together and get it into paint!
> 
> Dave


looks like it should get you to the cruise in and back ok. go on and get the saw ready.:cheers


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

stracener said:


> Haven't posted here in a while, been a little slow with progress, but finally got the motor final assembly done and took it in for dyno test and tune at Virginia Speed here in the Hampton Roads area.
> Here's a couple of pics of the motor in mock up. I didn't take any after final assembly, but we added a 1.5" carb spacer and smoothed everything up. I'll let you know how it runs when we get it back. Then it's time to get this thing together and get it into paint!
> 
> Dave


Nice! Of course you realize that in order to continue on this forum, a post including engine specs, dyno results, and an all important video of it RUNNING are absolutely required.... 

Bear


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## davs86 (Mar 2, 2009)

*72 convertible*



stracener said:


> I'm in work on my first restoration project, a 1972 GTO. I've got a lot of rust and corrosion, several layers of paint and a full engine rebuild ahead of me. But first the basics.... when I strip the paint and sand out the rust/corrosion and get down to shiny metal, I know I need to get it primed soon. Since I'm doing it a bit at a time, should I be priming as I go (same day) or do it when I get a complete panel done? Can I use spray can self etching primer if I'm doing it that way? Is there a preferred brand? Any help would be greatly appreciated!


Hi all, I too will be looking into doing some body work on my 72 matching numbers convert soon -PHS = endura, 400, auto, PS, PB, Dual pipes, am/fm, sport steering wheel, console, rallyII's and a couple other things ... my question is how can i find out how the production numbers of these Lemans Sport convirtables that were *ordered with the GTO 400 engine* ... i've been looking too, can't seem to find out. Thanks


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Davs86: no idea how you find out the production numbers, seems like there should be a resource out there somewhere that can help.

As for my motor, well, unfortunately Instig8tr, Mr. P-body only helped through informative posts on this and other boards. I would have been many $$ ahead, and probably be driving right now had I taken the drive to Mechanicsville and had Central Machines do the work. 

But then of course my son and I wouldn't have had the experience we have.

And here's where we're at, not exactly good...

When the guys at the shop tried to rotate the motor in preparation for the dyno it wouldn't move, couldn't figure why. Pulled the valve covers and rockers off, still no movement. Then we pulled the oil pan and loosened the rod bolts, spun okay. Pulled a bearings from rods on #3 journal and it appears they are not the right bolts for this rod/crank combo. Even though they came with the rotating assembly. They were clevite bearings, not sure of the number, I'll check it when I get it all back. Anyway, the engine builder -- not me and my son this time! -- is going to get it back together with high quality bearings that are proper for this set up (and high rpm power). Said they should have chamfered edges?... Also recommended thicker pushrods for the valve train. So he's got it, ordered the parts and should be able to have 'er running next week. Seems that it's always next week!

I certainly would have been $$ ahead to have had this done by a pro from start to finish, but it's been a great experience (although an expensive one) for my son and I to expand our mechanical knowledge and abilities. Of course, that's why we chose to check it out on the dyno first, to hopefully correct any mistakes before going in the car!


Little more time, little more money, making progress...
Dave


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

stracener said:


> And here's where we're at, not exactly good...
> 
> When the guys at the shop tried to rotate the motor in preparation for the dyno it wouldn't move, couldn't figure why. Pulled the valve covers and rockers off, still no movement. Then we pulled the oil pan and loosened the rod bolts, spun okay. Pulled a bearings from rods on #3 journal and it appears they are not the right bolts for this rod/crank combo. Even though they came with the rotating assembly....
> 
> ...Said they should have chamfered edges?...


OUCH! Yeah, I don't remember what's in your build but most, if not all, the "new" cranks have a larger radius fillet on outsides of the rod journals that require chamfered bearings. Or, could be that they installed the bearings backwards. I know on mine the bearings were chamfered on only one edge. If you're not paying attention it's easy to install them backwards so that the chamfer is on the "inside" next to the other rod instead of on the "outside" next to the crank where it needs to be. If they get installed that way and then torque the rod caps, it'll lock everything tighter'n Aunt Hatties hat band.... 

Bear


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

That's exactly what happened Bear! When we pulled 'em at the shop, the engine builder showed me a chamfered bearing, compared with the bearing we pulled out of the rod end and I could definitely see the difference. One of those things where some experience really pays off. Won't happen again to me!
Minor setback, glad we caught it.

BTW, I did end up using your photos to install the oiling restrictors in the lifter bores and it wasn't too tough to do with those directions. Thanks!


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

don't feel bad Stacener i have had my to[p end on and off three times checking and double checking everything and caught a little bobble in my build too, my rockers that i got on the 6 x heads were not marked, finaly was able to find the manufacturer as i thought they might be china crap, turns out they are Harland Sharp 1.65:1 rockers and i need to pull the heads and grind out the push rod channels for clearance guess better now than after i bend one.....keep up the good work and you guys did a heck of a job on that motor, its always the little details that hold you up.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

My son and I got some good work done on the interior and a little body work completed this weekend. No pics tonight, but we'll get some up next week as we go full bore on the body toward paint.

Anyone know a place in the Norfolk/Virginia Beach area that would give me a decent deal on a basic paint job. Just want to get it covered up and looking decent, not looking for a concourse Barrett Jackson job. Have a good week.
Dave


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*Compressor*

Anyone have an idea of the minimum size compressor that would work for spraying primer and high fill primer on my GTO while working the body? I'm hoping I can do it with a relatively small (CHEAP) one...


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

stracener said:


> Anyone have an idea of the minimum size compressor that would work for spraying primer and high fill primer on my GTO while working the body? I'm hoping I can do it with a relatively small (CHEAP) one...


You're in luck. Since you'll be working with primer and primer/surfacer, you're going to be sanding it all over afterwards anyway so small variations in spray pattern aren't going to matter. When I did mine, I used an ancient 2hp Campbell Hausfeld and it was fine. You're going to want to use a very good water trap/filtration system because the compressor is going to be running "all the time" and making lots of heat in the air supply - and that leads to moisture. A lot of it also depends on which gun you'll be using and how much air it needs to work efficiently. I used one of the new Eastwood Concours guns which don't have a high requirement for air. Some of the higher end guns need a lot more air to work.

Spraying your 'finishing' coats (sealer, base coat, and clear coat) are a whole 'nuther animal as far as air requirement to get them to look right.

Bear


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*Dyno - initial results*

It's been busy here with work and life, but Virginia Speed dyno'd our motor early this week, here's the dyno curves.. looks like around 550-75 on the tourque and 550 on the HP. Amazing how close BEARGFR was when he ran it in the desktop dyno he posted earlier in this thread.

I'm heading to the shop to pick up the engine this weekend and hope to get it installed the following weekend, no later than the one after that! Still hoping to make it to Pennsylvania for the PY show and drag races at Maple Grove (won't be racing, just watching!). 

More when I get it. Pics this weekend on the bodywork we've been doing. With the exception of the front fenders and lower front valance, we're there!

Does anyone have measurements for where the fender extractors go on a '72? I'm installing patch panels in some '71 fenders and have the extractors, just want to put them in the right spot.
Dave


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

congratulations on the motor Stace....those are some fine numbers....can't wait to see the body, just got mine final primed and doing wet sanding as we speak...:cheers


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

stracener said:


> It's been busy here with work and life, but Virginia Speed dyno'd our motor early this week, here's the dyno curves.. looks like around 550-75 on the tourque and 550 on the HP.


Very cool! :cheers What we need now is *SOME VIDEO!*. I wanna hear that puppy run... 

Bear


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Unfortunately, I've got no video. Was workin' while the guys were puttin' the juice to the motor! Wish I could have been there because I needed the tuning training, but nevertheless, at least I know the thing works. 

Thanks BEAR for helping with the oil restrictors, I could not have put those in without your pictures and advice!!

I"ll get some video of it running, as soon as I can get that beast installed. Hope that's soon!
DAve


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*Anyone with Good Pics of Rear Quarter/Trunk Area?*

This ole goat came to us very rusted, with a lot of corroded metal. We've replaced the rear quarter and the metal below the rear window, but in preparing it for final finish, I'm not sure if the "seam" between the quarter and metal between the rear window and trunk is supposed to be smooth, or "grooved". 

Does anyone have a photo of that part of a properly restored Lemans / GTO? I was thinking it should all be flush, but this car came with a vinyl top installed so I can't be sure. Tried the Fisher body manual, but couldn't find the right answer. Here's pics of the before, and the current state.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

should have a groove from trunk corner to bottom of the window at the seam like your rusted pics...looking good guys, so glad i did'nt have all that metal work to tackle, cudo's for jumping in and taking the bull by the horns, man your son will have a great story to go with that car and i am sure he will cherish it tons more than if it was just willed to him as his hands will have touched every inch of it.....:cheers


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Thanks Instig8tr. I'm still hoping someone will post a pic I can use to fix my current repair (I filled the seams!). 

Can't wait to see your ride in full color!!! You have done some great work on that. I'll be checking your threads. Especially the start up day!

Got my motor back today, made good power on the dyno, now need to get it in. Will be at least two weeks though, lot of work to do in the real life!

DAve


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Hoping to turn the key before too long, but had some troubles this weekend getting the engine in the car. Here's how it went Saturday:
Thought I'd drop the motor in, and start working the engine electrical and be ready to put the front end back together.... but... 
1. You can't put a motor in a 72 GTO with the headers attached, at least I can't! 
2. Headers off... motor lowered in, attempt to put headers back on ... won't fit with a/c stuff! Remove a/c stuff.
3. Trying to bolt up the headers, can not get all the bolts in. This thing is killin' me! 
4. Headers 3/4 installed, motor lowered in the rest of the way. CAN'T get the motor mount on the passenger side bolted.

So Sunday, had my son out there with me and it went a bit better. Got all the header bolts torqued down, but when we lowered the motor we can't get the drivers side to seat in the motor mount. May be hitting the brake junction block there on the frame, the header was already dented to clear that, but maybe not enough. Maybe next weekend we'll move that block and see if we can get the thing to seat.

these headers are a pain!

Anyone know if we can access the motor mount on the passenger side with the Hooker Super Comp headers bolted on? Drivers side is no problem (once we get it aligned with the motor sitting down).
Dave


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

You need to move the prop valve off the frame rail or you will boil your brake fluid. I nudged mine up on top of the frame and haven't had a fade issue yet.
After my 70, I decided to keep the stock manifolds on my 66, as they don't fit that well and are a major PITA!! Good luck!


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Next step will be to move the brake valve. I'll get under there and inspect it to see how complex the move will be. Anyone got photos?


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

gotta love a pontiac!


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

stracener said:


> Next step will be to move the brake valve. I'll get under there and inspect it to see how complex the move will be. Anyone got photos?


I moved mine from the side of the frame rail to the top, just a short distance. That necessitated a slightly longer line from the valve to the rear brakes, and a slight mod to the mounting bracket. I also installed an adjustable proportioning valve in the rear system at the same time, down-stream from the valve, and had to splice into the line anyway so that made it a little easier for me to deal with by making a longer line from between the distribution valve and the new proportioning valve. (I'm running Wilwood brakes). Here's a photo of the relocated valve. If you don't need to cut into your rear line like I did, then you could probably use a union fitting and a short length of additional tubing to extend the rear line to reach the distribution valve in the new location. All the other lines to and from the valve should have enough slack to reach without doing anything other than re-bending them a little.

Bear


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Thanks Bear. I can always count on you for good pics to document how to do it! Is that an aftermarket brake valve you put on the frame, or did you clean up the original. Mine doesn't quite look like that. Thanks again for the photos, I was thinking of putting it on top of the frame, and with this info... that's where it's goin'.
Dave




BearGFR said:


> I moved mine from the side of the frame rail to the top, just a short distance. ...Here's a photo of the relocated valve. If you don't need to cut into your rear line like I did, then you could ...
> Bear


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

stracener said:


> Thanks Bear. I can always count on you for good pics to document how to do it! Is that an aftermarket brake valve you put on the frame, or did you clean up the original. Mine doesn't quite look like that. Thanks again for the photos, I was thinking of putting it on top of the frame, and with this info... that's where it's goin'.
> Dave


Thanks for the kind words. That's a replacement valve that I bought from InLine Tube, it looks exactly like the original one my car had - just shinier.  It came with the bracket too. Originally I tried to modify the bracket to just make it mount "tighter" to the side of the frame rail. That worked, but it only left like a sixteenth of an inch between the header and the valve. The more I looked at it, the more I didn't like it and eventually decided it would probably be a problem, so I moved it. Another benefit of moving it to the top of the frame is accessibility. Where it was before, removing it required loosening the header enough to move it out of the way to provide access to the mounting bolt.

Bear


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

What's the latest on this? I read through the entire thread and I am left hanging like one of the old black and white cereals, did the hero survive? Did the train go over the cliff? Did the bomb go off?

UPDATES!!!!!


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

probably waiting on back ordered parts....:rofl:


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Back ordered parts is right... ordered an engine harness and front end electrical harness from M&H, had to have some customization done (MSD ignition, electric fan, electric water pump) so it's taking a while to get here.

In the mean time I bought a used compressor and a few tools to help out on our final bodywork -- the front fenders. Both fenders (neither correct for a '72) were rotted at the bottom rear area. I bought patches from Performance Years and went to work. 

First one we didn't do so good on... not bad, but a lot more work than needed to be done. Measured the patch, then cut the fender to fit the entire patch. Then mated the two, welded in place, and worked some filler. Did several mock ups on the car to make sure it was going okay, but the welds weren't great. Tough evolution overall, but successful. Pics attached below. In my next post I'll show the other side, worked much smarter there!


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

On the other side we measured the rotton part of the fender, made a template with paper, then CUT THE PATCH TO MATCH THE FENDER! Much better, easier to fit, easier to weld, better work all the way around. 

Now I REALLY NEED specs to install the air extractors. I have the extractors, but no numbers on where to put them in the fenders. We are gonna install them this weekend and then try out the compressor for some primer time!! 

If any one has a '72, please send me a couple of measurements... Thanks!
Dave


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Nice work Dave and son....how did i know you were waiting on parts...LOL. man you two have come along way in a short time, it's amazing how adept you can become at something after one time through, wish i had a son to help on mine. my daughters BF did help a bunch and will get to take it on the road (with me shotgun of course) and he is doing a 351 mustang he wants me to paint...both my daughters did pitch in on wet sanding the clear ...that was a fun day. when you get it in 3-4 coats of high build primer mist on a guide coat of black from a spray can very lightly just so you can see an even speckling of black and hit it hard with the long blocks and 180 and get it laser straight use two part polyester spot filler on the low spots (where you cannot get speckles off without cutting through high build) and feather it into the primer then spot prime the fill areas and hit it with 600 wet until it shines like paint when you wet it down with a sponge or grease remover....when your happy with that your ready to paint....:cheers


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Well, with no replies on dimensions for the extractors, here's where we're going. 

We're getting ready to cut into the fender patches to install air extractors for the '72 GTO. I can't find any diagrams or details on where these things go, so using some photos and measurements from an actual fender we did a little math and came up with the extrator to be mounted...
6.83 " above the bottom of the fender, parallel with the bottom of the fender.
3.56" back from the fender opening (measured at the lower corner of the extractor)
3.56" below the "point" in the fender, the sharp countour in the middle (measured from the upper corner of the extractor)

First we'll mock it up in a piece of metal to see if we can cut the hole and flange the metal properly. Then into the actual fender. Will let you know how it comes out.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Putting together the prototype was a bit more difficult than I imagined. My son did the calculations, cut out a paper pattern and placed it on the fender. We pulled the measurements off of this photo of an old crusty fender, using known measurements from the fenders we've got to develop the ratios. 

Then tried to cut the pattern into some scrap metal. First attempt we attempted to cut the pattern and use a pneumatic flanging tool to give us the step-down that allows the extractor to fit flush. After a lot of cutting, grinding, flanging, grinding, etc... it just didn't fit. The flanging tool didn't make a deep enough "groove"; the flange was just too shallow.

Second attempt is shown in the photos below. We measured it out, then cut with 1/2 inch tabs and fit the extractor in. It fit fine, with some minor adjustments this process will work well enough. As with most things, we thought we'd have these things in tonight... now we're hoping to get 'em both done tomorrow. Figuring out how to do it is half the battle with us, but we spent some good time designing and running through the numbers to come up with a workable solution. Hope to post some more refined photos tomorrow night!

Gonna knock off for tonight and take in some of the Norwalk drag racing on ESPN2!


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

looking good. live and learn, right!


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Got a little done, as usual, not as much as we had hoped. But progress none the less. Got both fenders mocked up, one sorta finished. Here's how the passenger side turned out. Since we can't make the flange deep enough with the flanging tool, the extractor is mounted flush using metal tabs and the mounting hardware on the extractor. The downside is no defining "groove" around the extractor. May be able to fabricate some of that definition using some sort of scribe or cutting tool. I'll work that a bit later. 

Got my son to do most of the work today and I was able to have a cold one and "supervise" !!

Well, actually I had to sand a bunch and clean up! Have a good week, hope for more progress next weekend.

Thanks to everyone for the assistance.
Dave


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*Start me Up !*

My son (Andrew) and I spent the weekend getting the Goat ready to rumble. Filled with oil, antifreeze, gas, etc...

Installed the ignition system (MSD 6, 8563 locked out, w/MSD timing compter) and remote solenoid for starter. Installed the radiator (had to hit 4 local parts shops to find the hoses!!), and electric fuel pump (Holley Blue). Cleaned the gas tank, then put in 6 gallons of 93 octane and some octane booster for good luck. 
Turned the key.... nada... nothing... accessories work, fuel pump pumps, water pump (CSR electric) pumps, but no crank!!

Rewire to bypass the remote solenoid... still nothing!

A lot of time squirming around on the ground, trying to connect stuff and read a voltmeter. Frustrating.

One point that's not obvious at this point - transmission is not installed. 

I'm hoping that it's the lack of a signal from the neutral safety switch that's causing my solenoid to be impotent. 

I've got the purple wire connected to the small terminal and the power to the power terminal. We'll figure it out soon, but any help would be appreciated!!
Dave


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Found the solution to the neutral safety switch problem... Here is some of the advice I received in case anyone faces the same problems:

"...usually there's the purple wire from the ignition switch going to N/S switch, and then a purple wire leaving the N/S switch to the starter solenoid. The N/S switch connects the purple wires when it's in the park or neutral position so the starter will work. You can bypass the N/S switch by just connecting the 2 purple wires that are on the switch, or making a jumper wire to connect them. Then it should crank when you turn the key, and would crank in any gear, if you had a transmission installed."

and

"Make sure the collar on the steering column is cranked all the way counter-clockwise"

That was right on! The problem was that the bottom part of steering column was not fully set counter clockwise. I reset it, and the motor cranked just fine, I didn't start it yet (didn't have the fuel hooked up because I don't want to do the initial startup inside the garage, would prefer to do it outdoors... AND my son wasn't home yet). 

Now for another question... anyone recognize this broken/frayed wire in my TH400 transmission (pics posted below)? I think we need to replace it, found it when we were changing the fluid/filter.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*No Start... Still Working it!*

Got the fuel pump mounted and squirting nicely, water pump pumpin', wires in the right spot, now the starter is out of alignment! It jumps out and just stops. Turned over a few revolutions once, then next time, nothing but CLINK! Later I watched it from below, pinion jumps out, but doesn't engage.

Does that mean it needs to be shimmed more?







Dave


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

And of course the whole family is watching as we try to get my son's GTO running... We keep on tryin'!
Dave


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

TIP: Get it running before the debute, then act like it's the first time.. Looks like a monster, love to hear it running! good luck


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

That wire is for the kick down on a 400 turbo. It need to be there, so it will drop down a gear when you are under hard acceleration. With the popping thru the carb it sounds like the timing is off a bit also.


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

Yes more shims


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

So....IS IT RUNNING YET???
The suspense is killing me.


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## DukeB-120th (Oct 19, 2009)

Pontiacpurebrred said:


> So....IS IT RUNNING YET???
> The suspense is killing me.


Crank! It! Up! Crank! It! Up! Crank! It! Up! Crank! It! Up!


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Fought this all weekend, thought it was a timing problem, but now think it was fuel/carb setup.

Running a Holley carb (built by Book Racing) and Holley Blue electric pump. Will need a lot of adjustment and tuning, but here's fire at least!!






Thanks for the tip jetstang. I was a one man show today, son is away at Virginia Tech for a running camp, and wife and daughter not home for the afternoon. A little more tuning and we'll be ready for a real video!
Dave


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## DukeB-120th (Oct 19, 2009)

I think my teeth just melted... that was SO awesome.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

MAN....nothing rocks a suspension like a high torque Pontiac mill....nice job stacener, sound mean.....as ****:cheers


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

That thing sounds nasty, and revs pretty clean, sound GREAT!! I'll have to remember the no windshield thing the next time I do an engine swap, makes the key way more convenient. Cool stuff!


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

was just picturing your son pulling up with you at the DMV in that thing to take his driving test.....all our boyhood dreams and he's living them with you...must be a great feeling...he will be pumped when he gets home....keep up the good work.....arty:


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Very very nice. FINE work my friend. We are all enjoying the fruits of your labor and excited to see the end of your journey. Your son is lucky to have a dad like you and a father & son project like this.

Kudos.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Tried to put in the TH-400 today, got it lined up and bolts started, but couldn't get it fully bolted on. I think I may not have gotten the torque converter properly seated before installing the transmission. I can't turn the converter, and can't get the bottom bolts on the drivers side fully torqued down. still have about an 1/8 inch of gap. 

Guess I'll drop it, double check the converter is properly installed on the transmission and try again tomorrow.

Super hot here in Norfolk VA today, temps over 100 and high humidity. Makes lying on the ground torquing bolts a lot of fun!

Dave


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Right choice, pull it out, make sure the pump is fully engaged in the cog, then reinstall and make sure it mates fully without any bolts installed, or use the bolts for alignment, not force.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

i hope you didnt tighten it too much. you can damage the pump in the transmission.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

stracener said:


> .... but here's fire at least!!


OOooo baby!! Sing me another verse of that song! :cheers


Bear


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

Yea just keep spinning the converter till it goes all the way in. There should be a little bit of clearance on the flywheel to torque convert bolts mounts, if the convert is in all the way. It will sound nice and solid when it is seated all the way.

I did the same thing when I was a teenager on a 74 98 olds, 400TH longshaft. Thank god I didn't brake anything when it was in a bind. 
I put the hole tranny on my chest and lifted it in place and started the bolts. I couldn't even dream of such a thing now. It is all I can do to pick up a tranny now standing up. God I'm getting old.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Thanks guys!

Likethat: just the thought of you hoisting that thing off your chest and bolting it up makes me tired! Good work, I'll let you know how we do. Hope to get to it on Sunday!


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

likethat said:


> . I put the hole tranny on my chest and lifted it in place and started the bolts. I couldn't even dream of such a thing now.


My buddy did the opposite back in the day. I put his throwout bearing in backwards, so he said, so he pulled it out by hand, bugger to get loose, but once it went, he got it, then it landed flat on his chest..
I would like to see anyone put a long shaft 400 up by hand, you must of been a bad ass, that thing is heavy..:cheers


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

Not a bad ass just lifted a ton of weights when I was younger. I haven't touched any weights in 19 years. It was a huge struggle back when I did it. Arms, knees, and a lot of push. All I could think of was that heavy SOB falling on my head. It was a case of young and dumb I was 18 at the time. That was my only car and if I wanted to go out and do anything it had to be fixed. 

Jetsang, did he fill his underwear?


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Dropped the tranny, seated the torque converter properly (clunk!), checked for any warpage on the flex plate and slid it all back together. SMOOTH. I'm definitely learning that if it takes a lot of force to get it together, probably not doing it right! 

Now need to fill with fluid and give it a start. 

I know to fill the pan, but then after starting it I should have to add a bunch more to fill the converter, pump, etc... Any tips on that?

Thanks.
DAve


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

put it in neutral and let it run a few seconds then recheck it. did you put any in the converter already?


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

Clunk is the right sound. I am sure you have already ran it. Reverse is the most use of the fluid. If you have the back up in the air just run it thru the gears and your good to go. Let it heat up to temp. Then make sure it is sitting on the tires on level ground and check the fluid level. Now its time to rotate the tires one the pavement and write your name on the back roads.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Worked on the goat this weekend, plumbed up the brakes after having relocated the combination valve. Jacked up the driver's side caliper trying to remove the bleeder valve when it broke off! Will have to get good brakes before putting it on the road.

Still can't get the thing to idle well. Starts up quickly every time, very reliable, but won't idle. Worked the idle a bit, using the idle screws on the carb. No joy. Will have to set timing first I think. I couldn't get my timing lite to give me a good reading (MSD ignition) so I'll have to find another lite to use.

Installed the exhaust system so we could run it a little quieter than the open Hooker Super Comp header sound! Unfortunatley, the side of the exhaust system that had the original piston/valve failure (from original 400) has a lot of sludge/oil in it; smokes and drips! Overall the system works pretty well, but hope to replace the exhaust with a X type crossover soon.

We're moving along, my son brought his girlfriend out to hear it roar. She was impressed, but didn't think it was very quiet. Don't mind the red eyes and bad focus, but it seems to add to the aura! Demon Goat!


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

LMAO....looks like my wife and daughters when i broke in the cam with open headers.....:rofl:


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Did a little work on the brakes, replaced a front caliper and tried like heck to bleed the system. Still seem to have a lot of air in the rear system, I can't push the button on my combination valve to get it to bleed properly.

My son was at work, but a neighborhood boy who dreams about muscle cars dropped by to check on our progress so I put him to work. He pulled the rear tire for me, then pumped the brakes while I bled 'em. 

Also installed a new thermostat. He had a blast!!
arty:

Still haven't got the timing set, car won't idle, but runs fairly well otherwise. Once we get these brakes solid we'll hook up the drive train.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

kids like him and your son will keep the nameplate alive...just think just from you letting him wrench with your and follow your build that Pontiac "Sound" will be etched in his memory forever just like most of us who were exposed to them when we were kids....Guess what kinda car he will want when he has the means to afford it.... very cool Stacener


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Talk about motivation, my son was mega-motivated after we hooked up the driveshaft and got the Goat out of the garage with greater than a one-manpower engine moving it. 




Then we got down to some business. Now we're working the fenders in earnest. We installed air extractors, but could not do it "factory" style. Impossible for guys of our experience level (combined with a little impatience) to flange that opening just right. So the fenders need some additional work with putty and paint.

Today we tested our compressor and paint gun. I've got an HVLP gun from HF that we'll try next. Shot 2k primer on the fenders, they turned out okay, but still have some sanding and additional coats to work. This was a good first start. We're planning on a lot of work going down on Labor Day weekend, need to get this thing street worthy!!

Below some shots of my son shooting primer, drivers license in less than 60 days, better work harder and faster!


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

My oh my but that thing sounds beefy!

Good job!

Bear


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## virginiavenom (Feb 20, 2011)

I love reading this build. you my friend are definitely one hell of a father. both of you keep up the good work.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Haven't posted in a while, we've been practicing the paint gun and working on the brakes. Also had to work the pulley's and belts needed to run the power steering and water pump. We had an electric water pump on the car, but when we re-installed the pwr steering , p/s belt hit the nose of the electric pump. So had to move back to a belt driven water pump. Pics attached... a lot of runs to the local Carquest to get the right length belts!! Nothing is easy. But then again, if it was everyone would have one of these bad boys. The goat would be no more special than a Mustang, Camaro, or Chevelle.

Motor is a BEAST, but can't put it on the street without brakes. Engine doesn't make enough vacuum to run the booster so we installed an aftermarket electric vacuum pump. WAY too much noise. So... hello hydraboost! 

Or hydroboost? Either way, I went down to my new favorite parts place today "Pick n Pull" (first time there) and picked up a hydro booster for less than $35 (pulled it from a mid 90's Chevy truck)! Plan on installing it this weekend. I'm not sure I can get the hoses I need locally, but if I can it should be installed before Monday. Might as well replace the master cylinder as well, but can pick that up at Carquest or NAPA I'm sure.


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

I am on the Gbody forms and many guys run the hydroboost. They like the ones from the astro vans. I am planing on one in the 67 Camaro.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

I found three Astro vans at the junk yard, but getting the booster out of them was very difficult. So I took the easy way out with the truck booster. Looks the same, hope it works the same. 

Went back to the yard today and I found a nice dual electric fan from a mid 90's Ford Contour, got it home early, but didn't make much progress in mounting it.

My son's out of town for a track meet so I had a few drinks with my wife :cheers and watched college football with our daughter all day. Doesn't get much better than that. The GTO will have to wait.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

had to be a fun day for the OK fan! probably gonna be a little cold tonight though.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

stracener said:


> I found three Astro vans at the junk yard, but getting the booster out of them was very difficult. So I took the easy way out with the truck booster. Looks the same, hope it works the same.
> 
> Went back to the yard today and I found a nice dual electric fan from a mid 90's Ford Contour, got it home early, but didn't make much progress in mounting it.
> 
> My son's out of town for a track meet so I had a few drinks with my wife :cheers and watched college football with our daughter all day. Doesn't get much better than that. The GTO will have to wait.


Awesomeness :cheers I went the hydroboost route myself but I used all "new" parts from NAPA --- including the mid 80's GMC Diesel booster... I had hoses made locally. Holler if I can help 

Bear


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

66tempestGT said:


> had to be a fun day for the OK fan! probably gonna be a little cold tonight though.




:lol:....................


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Son got home today so we got some work done!!

Got the fan wired properly using a Painless relay/controller/thermostat. 

For the hydroboost pedal adjustment I cut the original end off of the booster unit and threaded the rod to 3/8-24 and then threaded the original clevis from our old vacuum booster which allowed me to adjust for pedal position. Works well. Brakes are very good. My son drove it (just down the street a little) and they tested just fine.

If anyone needs an electric vacuum pump, I've got one I'll let go cheap. Although I wouldn't recommend it, just too loud.

These pics are nothing special, just threading the rod on the hydroboost unit and installing the clevis, then mocking it up.


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## Josh.AZ.GTO (Jul 11, 2009)

stracener said:


> Got a little more work done today. Right rear quarter panel cut off, need a lot of grinding before welding on the new panel... then the roof panel. Couple of pics of our work today. Encouraging to see it with the new panels in place, even if they're not welded in yet.


Stracener,
Do you have any more photos of your roof panel installation? I removed the sunroof in my 70, and found one of the braces had been cut off and now looking at the roof panel I may just replace it. Where did you make your cuts and how would you rate the difficulty level. 

~Josh


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Josh: unfortunately I don't have any additional photos of the roof panel replacement. The roof panel was very easy to do. The hard part was getting the old stuff off, and I had to replace a quarter panel also. 

But the roof is quite easy. We just drilled holes and plug welded to the car in the same way that it was previously spot welded. Worked out quite nicely. My 15 year old son did all the welding, I ended up with the grinding chores. Overall, one of the easier things we've done. We bought the roof panel from YearOne and it did not require any additional cutting/fitting. Good luck.
Dave


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Found a local jobber for House of Kolor paint, and shot a couple of panels to see if we could do it. Turned out pretty nice, it's Candy Brandywine over silver. Pops in the sunshine, but not too flashy. My son saw this at the Pontiacs at the Grove show in the summer, so here's our attempt at shooting it. I screwed up the entire trunk lid using a bad paint gun. The front valance was done with a different gun and worked out nicely.

Need to get this thing in paint. Drove it around the neighborhood today in primer black and I think I scared the women and children...


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

that is a beautiful color, but i cant think of a color that is harder to spray. gotta get the candy very even or you will have a bunch of dark and light spots and stripes. practice practice practice.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

That's old school candy apple red right there spraying red over silver. :cheers


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

The paint looked nice and I started stressing because I couldn't afford to buy the materials to shoot it right now (will run greater than $1,000), but now that I've been fighting the fenders, hood, endura bumper and all to get aligned I'm nowhere near shooting final paint. These panels are killing me. Hood alignment, fender alignment, doors (doors to fender is THE WORST right now).

We re-sprayed the car in 2k gray and are working the body now.
So....Primer gray rocks! 

No dinging up the nice paint while trying' to figure out the alignment of the panels. 

Thursday and Friday my son and I mounted the windshield and back glass. Used 3M Window Weld to install the windshield and it worked quite well. Managed to put everything else together and we're just about ready to roll!

Got insurance and tags. My son drove it to the gas station today for a full tank of fuel!! 

But the tail lights aren't working. I really need to figure that out.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

We worked a lot on the lights, fixed some grounds, changed some bulbs and now we have stop lamps, turn signals and flashers in the rear (and front), but parking lights and headlights do nothing for the rear of the car. And interior lights are out. But we'll chase those 'electrical demons in another forum.

The car is completely in primer gray, except the underside of the trunk (ran out of primer before hitting it) and the valance (painted in the color we hope to complete the car in). 

My son drove it around a lot today. In between drives I couldn't get him outta the garage, he was really working stuff. 

Drove to the parts store early today, and then later my son took his car to a youth event at our church called "trunk or treat" where everyone dressed up their trunk and handed out candy. 

Even with the car in primer gray and the underside of the trunk lid not even in primer gray, the car got a lot of attention. And my son was proud to tell his restoration stories about learning to weld, building a monster motor, painting, and of course installing the 2005 seats. It was really cool as a dad to stand back and listen to him telling his stories! Of course after a while he had to pop the GTO's hood, that really drew a crowd.

And now, every great story has an end... check out photo #3, as he pulls into the garage HUGE ball of smoke. Steam actually, I thought a head gasket blew, but fortunately it was the radiator hose, broke from the clamp. Hopefully no damage, he shut it off immediately.

This was the first time he'd driven the car any distance, and we learned the TH-400 won't shift out of first. 35-40 miles an hour was max today. Could not get a shift into second. More on that later. A lot of fun today!


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Check that the kick down switch isn't stuck 'on'. If it is, you should be able to unplug the wire at the tranny and it should shift.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*Transmission*

We were unable to shift the car manually (starting out in S, moving to L, then D) as well as the automatic shift. I thought that at least the manual would work.

Checking out the kick down switch... it, along with the other black electrical wire that connects to the speedo connection were both disconnected. Whoever installed it just didn't connect the electrical stuff. (that was me of course).

On the other side, I have no vacuum source to connect to that vacuum connector modulator connection. Is that a required connection or can I just block that off. I have no vacuum ports on my engine or carb. If absolutely needed I suppose I could drill into my spacer for a vacuum signal.

I can't test drive it tonight due to the broken radiator hose, hopefully I can find one of those tomorrow for a test. 

Thoughts?


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Yes, that needs to be hooked up, without vacuum there the tranny thinks you have the gas floored(no vacuum = WOT) so it's not shifting. Connect to manifold vacuum and it'll prolly shift fine.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

I think this motor only makes about 5" at idle, do you think that will be a problem. Would this also cause the car not to shift, even via manual movement from L to S?


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*A little more bodywork*

While trying to solve the tranny issues, a little more body work has arrived. Hood cowl arrived from Glasstek. We've got to figure out the attachment, but thinking of glassing it on. Problem was we built the motor with a victor and spacer, which brought the carb bolt attachments up to just above the stock hood.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Goat came home on a tow truck tonight !! 

We put in the adjustable vacuum modulator for the transmission and connected it to a manifold vacuum port (port made 5-7 inches at idle when tested with vacuum gauge). 

Changed the oil also. Spilled a bit especially changing the oil filter. Took her for a test drive, hoping for a 1-2 shift, and didn't get it. Could only get to 4,000 rpm because of the speed limit on the street we were on, so we headed back home. Car was smoking a lot once hot (I'm thinking it was the spilled oil), and then we heard some knocking, then the car just stopped running. My (16 yr old) son was driving and did a nice job with the no power steering, no power brakes dead stick into a parking lot while avoiding traffic. 

Called in reinforcements, tow truck brought us home.

Pulled the valve covers, all looks good. Oil is clean, water/antifreeze is clean. Plugs are black with carbon. 

Started right up, sounds fine. Still needs to get timing set properly and idle screws in carb set right. I think without the timing, it's all just chasing our tail. And then we'll work some more on the 1-2 shift.


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## twinjracing (Aug 28, 2010)

Man that sucks. Hope it just oil.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

That sucks, knocking is bad. Turn the crank with a socket and see what's up, hopefully nothing too bad. Good luck.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*Spun Bearings*

Well, it was worse than we expected. Motor was hard to turn, thought it may have been valve train problems, but troubleshooting quickly led us to pull the motor and check it out. Luckily I had a friend over, and one of my son's friends were here to. Only took a few hours to pull it out, rip into it, and 

WOW. #7 and #8 rods were a burnt black color, all others perfect. Bearings for #7 and #8 were trashed. Eaten up and laying in the bottom of the oil pan for the most part. :shutme

Not sure why only #7 and #8 would give out, :confused I'll be checking out the oiling system later today to make sure passages are clear.

Anyway, got to get the crank to the machine shop for cleanup and order some bearings, gaskets, and rear main seal to get it back together.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

that really stinks. wash out all the passages in the block real good. you dont want any of those pieces running through your new stuff. did you plastigage it all when you put it together?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

stracener said:


> WOW. #7 and #8 rods were a burnt black color, all others perfect. Bearings for #7 and #8 were trashed. Eaten up and laying in the bottom of the oil pan for the most part. :shutme
> 
> Not sure why only #7 and #8 would give out, :confused I'll be checking out the oiling system later today to make sure passages are clear.


Oh man, that's tough - I'm really sorry you're having this problem. :willy:

How long / how much time / how many miles had it been together and running when this happened? 

Both rods on the same journal --- sort of suspicious of an oiling problem to that journal, maybe one of the rods installed with the bearing bevel edge on the inside instead of the outside?

Bear


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

It's interesting Bear. Motor cranked out 575 hp on the dyno with nearly 600 torque. Have run it about 2 hours since then, on trip of about 10 miles (church and back) with no problems. 

Then, one short drive ~3 miles and it stopped. Brought it home (tow truck) and sat. Looked at everything, changed the oil, nothing weird, started it back up (BAD IDEA). Engine seized.

In breaking it all down I did find the oil galley plug on the passenger side in the front is missing (likely eaten up in that metal in the pan!). 

But that wouldn't explain the loss of oil in the #7/8. #7/8 gets oil from the rear main seal oiling hole. So, perhaps the rear main bearing was installed improperly, or moved with xmsn or balancer installation?, and was blocking oil the whole time? When we removed the crank it seemed that the rear main bearing was installed properly, although it was scored.

I do have the oil restricters in the solid lifters, and again, the only failure I can find is the passenger side oil galley plug is missing. I'm gonna tap those suckers and thread in pipe plugs!

Right now I'm looking for two new rods, all new bearings (rod and mains) and a new oil pump (old one works, but I'm not counting on it!). Oh, and some work on the crank!

Hope to have 'er back up running real soon. On a good note, my son, his buddy, and a friend of mine spent a lot of quality time together breakin' it down!


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Man those photos are both painful and scary to look at 

I'm sure glad I put screw-in plugs in all my oil gallery holes. 

Wonder if maybe losing the plug killed oil pressure, and those bearings might have been just a taste "tighter" than the others?

I know you'll double check them all...

Bear


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

We got the motor rebuilt last week and started up this weekend. Sounds great and we're hoping for more mileage on this build!! But at the current time we're waiting on a couple of parts to complete the tranny rebuild, just a filter and filter tube for the TH-400. During the down time we put in a TRANSGO 400 1-2 reprogram kit so hope for good transmission work when we test it again this weekend. check back on Sunday for video!

On a different note, 

We've got a fiberglass (glasstek) cowl induction scoop to install (the 455 with Victor and 1.5" spacer is too tall for stock hood). A pic of it is mocked up below. 

How should I attach the hood to the scoop? I'm thinking that 3m panel weld stuff? Anyone know the name of that? What about just using a fiberglass to meld it to the steel hood? Maybe with some screws and fill the screw head areas? Just looking for any info folks may have from previous experiences. Thanks.
Dave


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

stracener said:


> We've got a fiberglass (glasstek) cowl induction scoop to install (the 455 with Victor and 1.5" spacer is too tall for stock hood). A pic of it is mocked up below.
> 
> How should I attach the hood to the scoop? I'm thinking that 3m panel weld stuff? Anyone know the name of that? What about just using a fiberglass to meld it to the steel hood? Maybe with some screws and fill the screw head areas? Just looking for any info folks may have from previous experiences. Thanks.
> Dave


Sashay over to the paintucation forum at Kevin Tetz's Paintucation Forum and ask your question there. Kevin or Gary will be along shortly and will give you dependable information.

Bear


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Thanks Bear. I signed up and asked the questions at Paintufukation... or whatever it was. Appreciate the referral.

Hope your converter problem is getting fixed, sounds like you had a handle on it. Look forward to some new video of that black beast soon. I hope my son and I can do half as well with our paint (whenever we get to that!).

Look for new video of our motor rebuild this weekend. Sat/Sun. 

Until then, we've been working on Christmas. Happy Holidays to all!!
Dave


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

No video... on the motor rebuild we've got issues...

Got a clearance problem on the 4/3 journal....checking it out. Ordered new bearings - no difference. When #3 is torqued motor won't turn. #3 measures .001. #4 measures .0015-.002 w/plastiguage. All others at least .0025. Think I may have gotten poor machine work on the crank clean up !

If only all the parts were made perfectly then bolting it all together would be easy ?!!?


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Buy a new stroker crank.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

stracener said:


> No video... on the motor rebuild we've got issues...
> 
> Got a clearance problem on the 4/3 journal....checking it out. Ordered new bearings - no difference. When #3 is torqued motor won't turn. #3 measures .001. #4 measures .0015-.002 w/plastiguage. All others at least .0025. Think I may have gotten poor machine work on the crank clean up !
> 
> If only all the parts were made perfectly then bolting it all together would be easy ?!!?


Is this in the rod journal? If so, make sure you have the beveled edge of both rod bearings oriented correctly. One edge of the bearing will be square, the other edge will be beveled/chamfered. The beveled edge goes to the outside next to the crank counterweight. If they're in backwards then teh square edge will bind up on the fillet next to the counterweight and lock it up.

Bear


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Good point, I was thinking it was a main bearing.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

It's the rod journal for sure. #3/4. I can only get .001-.0015 (using plastiguage). So I ordered another set of bearings... same result. I've checked bearing position (upper/lower) and orientation as you mentioned Bear, but something is off. 
I'm calling in professional help now, called Jim Lehart (Mr. P-Body) at Central Virginia Machine and I'm gonna haul it all up there this week to get it put together right.

There is still plenty of blocking and sanding to do on the body to keep my son and I occupied until the motor comes back! Happy New Year all.


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

We couldn't work out the time to get the motor to CVMS due to my new work schedule, but thanks to a lot of tips from forum members we found our problem. Had rod caps mixed. Three caps were on the wrong rods. On these Eagle rods the serial numbers were almost impossible to find, until I found them of course!! After we got that straightend out, clearances were all .025-.030. Now, no problems motor has fired right up. Good oil pressure and good temps.

Here she is running', still need to get it tuned right. Hoping to test the tranny tomorrow! 

And the really good news, the military base I'm working at now has an operational paint booth at the auto hobby shop, so we'll have a chance to get it painted without having to do it out in the garage!!

Here's a video of where the motor is today...





Dave


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

The motor worked fine and tranny turned the wheels. Didn't get it out far enough to test the shifts as the front end isn't all on (no hood). I'll get this thread turned back to bodywork next week as we get the hood on and fitted. Today we tried to determine whether the rear end was a posi or open unit. We sorta took a shortcut on the testing procedure... had my son step on the gas and lo and behold a 60' single stripe of rubber was laid down on the pavement. Guess that means it's not a posi...

More next week.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

that is actually the recomended way to test for a posi rear end...., and i bet your son loved having dad tell him to roast them.....


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

*Back on the Body -- Paint*

Working hard now to get a coat of paint on this bad boy. Got orders to move overseas and I'm leaving next week, want to make sure there's gonna be protection on the car at least as it will be in storage for 2-3 years. 

Painted the door jambs and edges... hope to shoot the car tomorrow! Stay tuned...


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

cannot wait....if you need someone to babysit your car while your gone..:seeya:..


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## twinjracing (Aug 28, 2010)

Well that kind of puts a damper on thing for a few years Cant wait to see you get back to it


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Sprayed on some nice color, but my cheap a,!$&@? Harbor Freight spray gun gave up the ghost before I could get a good coat of clear. It's splotchy now, plan on trying to get a new gun on Sunday and clean it up. Those parts that got good clear look nice, hope it comes together. 

Any problems with recoating with clear after 18-24 hours?? Using Sherman Williams formula 21.

I've taken some pics... Will get them posted soon.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

check their web site or your tech sheet (always ask for one and msd)...worst case you will have to scuff with a scotchbrite pad


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Paint is coming along... My son and I have had some problems and are learning quickly. On the second clear coat we put it on too thick and have some runs... am sanding those out now, hope to upload some photos, had problems with that last time.

We're sanding with 1000 and 1500 sandpaper (wet) and it seems to work quite well. Really fixes the blemishes. But I have learned that ANY bodywork deficiency will be shown with the paint... door dings, bad bondo work (none of that on my car though), bad weld bead , etc... it's all there!!

couldn't upload the photos... third time in as many days I've tried. Must be something with my browser (Safari).

Anyway, the paint is almost there, can't wait to take it out in full regalia!


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

yes the clear sands easily for the first few weeks after that it's a bear...neat trick for guide coating runs is to swipe some poly spot filler over the run, let harden for 15 minutes then sand with a block. the run will show against the white filler as a high point and as you get closer to flat the filler will dissappear.


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## SpeedSLC (May 24, 2015)

You're right everything shows on a paint job, it's not easy but fun to do and learn


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## Irishmic (Sep 24, 2013)

Cut those hangers in the clear coat with 600 on a block (wet) ..sand carefully 4-5 strokes at a time ..wipe or dry area with a blowgun...sand lightly just until sag is not felt or seen with the eyeball...then some strokes with 1000...then 1500...then 2000..and last 3000...then buff......all this providing you have at least 2 good coats of clear on.....I've been doing body work/ collision work for the last 39 years.


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