# '69 GTO engine trouble -- costs??



## Claymation19 (Jun 27, 2010)

I've had some trouble with my GTO overheating lately. It wasn't a problem with the thermostat or any of the cooling from what I checked out. I finally had to take it into a shop recommended by the local car club to get some more advanced checks on this problem.

They pulled the engine and ended up finding a bunch of metal shavings in the oil pan (almost a handful) as well as the bearings around the crankshaft worn extremely badly (one was almost gone). They said the lifters and crankshaft will need to be replaced and the engine re-milled. They think the original owners who had did their own frame-off restoration in 2001 may have had the engine milled and not properly cleaned it afterward.

Right now the total cost is looking like it will be around $4k - 4.5k for everything from start to finish according to the owner/head mechanic. I know the milling will be a really expensive part, but is this too much money for this? Should I look into getting a whole new engine for this?

My Goat is still in the shop with the engine out and they're getting ready to send it off to be re-milled. I'd love any advice you all might have!

Thanks!

Clay

By the way, my car is actually a '66 GTO with a '69 GTO engine in it, so it is not numbers matching or anything that would prevent putting a new engine in it.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Hi Clay,
Not sure what is meant by having the engine "milled", as that's an operation that's typically done on cylinder heads. The equivalent might be having the block "decked", but anyway...

There's an awful lot that depends on what you're going to do with the car, where and how you're going to drive it. If it really is the case that the crank needs to be replaced as opposed to just being reground, and if the block is still good, then for the money you're going to spend you're in prime territory for building that 400 into a 461 stroker. If you're interested in that, then I'd recommend that you get the shop to hold on any machining operations while you take a few steps back and plan your build so you don't "waste" any money on machining that might have to be redone for a stroker.

Bear


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## Claymation19 (Jun 27, 2010)

Thanks for the reply!

My wife and I mostly enjoy the car on the weekends and go cruising. We do have some aftermarket performance additions, but we still want the car to remain comfortably drivable with enough extra power under the hood to keep it fun!

We talked about the stroker kit, but thought that might be too much for how we drive. As for the crank, we're getting a whole new one and probably replacing the lifters.

I did call the shop and told them to hang on for a bit so we can go forward with a better plan!


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Clay, you're right. Now is the time to stop and take inventory. You've got a '66 GTO. You need an engine. Matching numbers or "correctness" are probably not an issue. If your curent block is good, and you just need a crank and internals, you can go that route. No Pontiac engine is "cheap" , unless you get lucky and get a runner to just drop in and go....a used engine. My choice would be to find a '66 389 block because I like close to original, but the better choice would probably be to go with what you have. I'd recommend a competent maching shop, one that works on Pontiacs. Also, I'd consider a set of custom dished pistons so you can run pump gas (you want around 9:1 compression), new rods (they're cheap and far superior to stock), a decent cam, and to have the heads checked out. If you want a strong, responsive, fairly economical driver, a stock spec crank will be fine. With the right cam, compression, and decent heads, you'll have a really nice combo. Do the homework (saves $$$$), ask questions, and you'll get there. Hopefully, Mr PBody will post here and give you some insight as well.


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## 68GTO4004Spd (Jun 19, 2008)

Keep a Pontiac engine in it no matter what path you take. Mine is in the engine shop right now just to get a "refresh" and they want $2500 to $3500 just for that, so you are in the ballpark with that quote. Geeteeohguy, BearGRF and Mr. P-body will definatally steer you down the right path.


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## Claymation19 (Jun 27, 2010)

Thanks! 

I appreciate the replies from everyone. As much as I love my GTO, I'm unfortunately not a mechanically savvy guy. This forum is a great resource to keep me on the straight and narrow as different "problems" arise.

I'm meeting with the owner/mechanic on Monday to review some of these options. He's got a couple cars he's restored at his shop and they _look_ pretty good. I just like double checking with all of you that the prices and problems he gives me add up.

-clay


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## Mr. P-Body (Jan 20, 2011)

The price range for a complete rebuild of a 400 is about right. We have a "package" deal for a "resto-mod' 400 for $4,495 (for comparison). 

Be certain your machinist is familiar with the Pontiac, and not simply applying "Chevy" technology. What "works" for the Chevy will produce a Pontiac that will A) be a pig and B) not real "tough". 

Replace the stock connecting rods with a minimum of the RPM forgings. For only a few more bucks, have NEW FORGED rods instead of rebuilt CAST rods.

As said, the compression ratio needs attention. 10.25:1 is too high for today's gas. "Dishing" the pistons is the best way to accomplish this. Add a Comp XE or Lunati VooDoo grind in the parametric range for the desired results and it will perform BETTER than the old "stock" setup, AND be "pump gas friendly".

Perhaps buying Jim Hand's book "How to Build Max-performance Pontiac V8s", published by SA Designs, may be prudent? If your machinist has the book, great. If not, ask him to read it. This is the most "current" study of the ol' ***** for street engines. Some of it a bit dated now (7 years), but it's still VERY "applicable".

Jim


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Claymation19 said:


> My wife and I mostly enjoy the car on the weekends and go cruising. We do have some aftermarket performance additions, but we still want the car to remain comfortably drivable with enough extra power under the hood to keep it fun!
> 
> We talked about the stroker kit, but thought that might be too much for how we drive. As for the crank, we're getting a whole new one and probably replacing the lifters.


Alright, that helps! Here's the thing: like Mr. P-Body said, it's imperative that you go with forged rods for the sake of strength and reliability. The factory cast rods were always the weak link in the Pontiac. Add to that the cost of a new crank --- and if it needs to be bored --- pistons plus the cost of having the block bored --- and you can have a stroker for pretty much exactly the same cost as re-building the 400. If you can find a set of 6x-4 D-port heads (92 cc "nominal" chamber volume) that would put you at 9.4:1 compression using standard .045 gaskets, factory nominal deck height of .020, and the "flat top" forged pistons that would come in the kit. Put enough cam in it to make it interesting (and safe at 9.4:1), and you'll have a monster 461 torque motor that will last forever, be happy on 93 octane, that you can pass off to the casual observer as a 400, and will most definitely "keep it fun". If your block is still good but needs to be bored, you're going to spend about the same money either way.

After all though, it's your choice - my view is if I can have a beast for the same cost, why not? 

Bear


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## Claymation19 (Jun 27, 2010)

Thanks a bunch for the info Bear and Jim. This gives me some direction and much better starting point when I sit down with the owner/mechanic on Monday.

I'll let you know where I end up. Can't wait to get this moving forward again - beautiful weather and the car is in the shop!


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Clay, if you're not real mechanical, you just might consider a package deal engine to drop in. If I were in your shoes, I'd talk to Mr P Body about a combo.....I've never bought anything from him, but his reputation is tops and he really knows these engines. For the least amount of hassle and the most bang for the buck, it may be the way to go.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

geeteeohguy said:


> Clay, if you're not real mechanical, you just might consider a package deal engine to drop in. If I were in your shoes, I'd talk to Mr P Body about a combo.....I've never bought anything from him, but his reputation is tops and he really knows these engines. For the least amount of hassle and the most bang for the buck, it may be the way to go.


:agree You won't find anyone better.


Bear


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## Claymation19 (Jun 27, 2010)

Yep, it's sad but true, I'm not that mechanical. I do have other redeeming qualities though 

I've always wished I was smarter with the car mechanics and that's something I'm trying to remedy. I've always loved the 60's and 70's muscle cars, especially the GTOs! My wife and I finally took the plunge and bought one, thought we're a little bummed about the engine trouble now. I am happy it is getting a thorough look over now.

I met with the mechanic today and we've got the engine out of the car and over at the machinist now. We're going to do a complete rebuild on what I have and keep the pontiac engine. I'm curious does Mr P-body have a website? My wife and I are looking to get another GTO (for her this time - yep, that's a great woman)! We may have to get a new engine for it as some of the ones we've looked at do not have engines or are not matching numbers anyway. We're not big on 100 point show cars, but like to keep them pretty close to original without spending too much dough!

Sorry for the long post! I appreciate all of your help and advice!

-clay


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Clay, yes he has a website, and hopefully he'll post it. As a professional auto tech for over 30 years, I speak from experience: it is much cheaper and easier in the long run to have a real expert do your engine and machine work. It may cost a bit more initially, but as Rukee once said: "cry once when you buy it or cry every time you use it". You will not regret having a Pontiac pro dial in an engine combo for you. I rebuilt the 389 in my '65 GTO in 1981, and it's still running strong with about 50,000 miles on it. I rebuilt the original 400 in my '67 GTO in 1988 and it's running great after about 75,000 miles on the rebuild. Done right, they last a LONG time!!!! (I DID recently reseal the 400 engine, though, as the rear main seal was leaking badly.....the 389 has never been touched...not even a valve cover gasket!!)


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Claymation19 said:


> Yep, it's sad but true, I'm not that mechanical. I do have other redeeming qualities though
> 
> I've always wished I was smarter with the car mechanics and that's something I'm trying to remedy. I've always loved the 60's and 70's muscle cars, especially the GTOs! My wife and I finally took the plunge and bought one, thought we're a little bummed about the engine trouble now. I am happy it is getting a thorough look over now.
> 
> ...


You know what? Eveyone who knows anything about this stuff, they all had to learn it some time. As far as I know, no one was born with the knowledge. It just takes some studying and a little head-scratchin', (and sometimes some busted knuckles) but none of it is as hard as, say for example, quantum physics (thank goodness!). 

Jim's web site is Central Virginia Machine Service - Home of the ***** Engine!. 

As long as you think about what you're doing, there are very few ways to mess things up to the point where they can't be fixed, so don't be a'skeered to jump in and try something. Hook up with TopKat - he's fearless about trying anything. 

Bear


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## Mr. P-Body (Jan 20, 2011)

Thanks for all the kind words, guys. We're "here" and if we can help, be happy to.

Jim


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## Claymation19 (Jun 27, 2010)

Hey Jeff, Jim, and Bear - thanks a bunch for the input. I took your advice and incorporated a lot of the ideas you guys gave me. Honestly, the biggest one was taking the time to sit down and get this planned out properly. I also took the advice of getting Jim Hand's "Max Performance Pontiacs" book - very detailed 

I just got my car back today finally so I am enjoying it again. For fun, we also installed new Doug Thorley ceramic headers and some electric cutouts. The guys I'm working with were patient enough to let me help out and learn a little with them on the weekend:cool

On a less fun note, I separated my shoulder pretty bad this past week playing rugby and have to go in for surgery next week to repair the ligament damage. Not looking forward to this one! I hope being in a sling for around 6 weeks doesn't hamper the driving enjoyment too much!


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

looks good Clay ...OUCH!!! on the shoulder, i have had one redone and the other will be due as the wife says "next time you screw it up good playing hockey!". worst movement i had was reaching for the radio but i see you don't have power steering....guess you could always ride shotgun and let the wife break the engine in...;D


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## Claymation19 (Jun 27, 2010)

Well, I'm sorta "lucky" in that it is my left shoulder, so the radio is no problem (actually still working on the radio install - then I'll be able to reach that :willy.

The electric cut-out switch IS on the wrong side for me though, gonna be rough doing the cross-body reach! 

Oh, and my wife, she'll have no issues helping with the breaking in, she loves the car and going fast as much as me


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Sorry to hear about your injury, Clay. On the other hand, you sure got it back and running quickly! What engine combo did you end up building? (compression/cam/heads/etc).


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Terrific, Clay! (The car, not the shoulder...)

I second what Geeter said - let's hear the gory details on the motor!

Bear


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## Claymation19 (Jun 27, 2010)

We ended up dishing the pistons to achieve a compression ratio closer to the 9.3:1. Also went with the Comp XE262H cam - everyone on the forums has had nothing but good things to say about that! We did a .030 overbore. Had to replace the pistons, valves, valve springs, etc. Also swapped into the RPM forged rods as suggested. She's running real smooth now, just continuing to break her in!

Bear was close to selling me on stroking the engine to a 461, but that may have to wait until I'm able to get another Goat that needs work 

I've always been jealous of Jeff and all GTOs he's owned!


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