# 66 gto suspension alignment



## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

Hi!

The problem is: The wheel on the front left scratches the fender. I adjusted the upper control arm and added as much shims as possible in the front and removed all but a small one from the back of the upper control arm. But the wheel is too close to the fender and if I make turns left, it scratches.

What can I do?
Are there special control arms that give more alginment options? Can I adjust caster somewhere else?
I tried everything and I don't know what to do any more...
The wheel on the front passenger side is about 2,2 inches away from the fender on the rear and the driver side with maximum caster just 1,5 inch. 

Wheel size is 235/60/15 and 7x15" rims with offset -6mm.


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

I painted a (horrible) picture:










Can you tell me where to add shims to move my wheel to the front?

I think moving the wheel in the wheel-housing forward is called positive caster and moving it to the back is negative caster.

I need more positive caster.. and my manual tells me if I remove shims on the front bolt it will decrease negative caster. But if I do so, the wheel moves to the back instead of the front!

Where would you add shims? Only front? Or on front and rear bolts of the upper control arm?


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

you likely have a bent frame or bent suspension parts. when you start playing with shims just to move the wheel forward you are throwing your alignment to the wind. the lower control arm positions the wheel and the upper is used to adjust the caster and camber. you might be able to shift the body on the frame a little but more than likely something is bent. a good way to check is to pull both front wheels then measure from the lower ball joint to a common point on the frame behind the wheel. hook a tape in the body mount hole then measure to the grease fitting of the ball joint. if they are the same then the body is crooked. if different then bent control arm or frame (or both).


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

:agree Something in the milk ain't cream here. Use the procedure suggested to identify if you've got a body alignment problem or a frame/suspension problem.

How well do the hood, fenders, doors, etc. line up with each other? Are the gaps between the front edges of the doors and the rear edges of the fenders exactly the same on both sides? How about the rear edges of the doors and the front edges of the quarter panels? If you've got a sheet metal alignment problem then I'd expect to find some side-to-side differences somewhere in these areas, unless the whole body is slightly 'crooked' sitting on the frame.

Bear


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

The disctance between door and fender look the same on both sides. I'll check the other gaps and measure the distance between lower ball joints and a point at the frame at the rear.
Can I check if the lower control arm is bent? The left and right one at the front are the same? So I could measure the one on the right and compare it to the one on the left?!

It's also a little bit confusing, I think the car is a little bit lower on the left than on the right. Maybe I need new springs? But I think a bent control arm could also cause a difference in ride height?!

edit:
I checked the gaps between end of front fender and front of the door = both sides the same
I also checked the gaps between end of door and front of rear fender = both sides the same

I think the problem could also be the wheel offset (but why does it fit on the other side?) or the width of the tires (same question).
The last alignment was no problem and caster/camber/toe in worked just fine.. but the distance between the end of the tire to the rear side of the fender is 6mm on the right and 4mm on the left with that correct alignment. 
Is it possible that the left wheel will go 2mm forward if I remove the 0,5" spring spacer?


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

I found the problem. The body and frame are no problem, it's the mounting bracket where the lower control arm is mounted. It isn't on the same position as on the right side.
I will drill a larger hole (instead of cutting the mounting bracket from the frame and try to mount it better) and then I can adjust the lower control arm (caster). Once the best position is found, I will weld the not needed part of the hole in the bracket so that bolt won't move unwanted.

I think this should work. I need to move the lower control arm abount 0,5" in front direction.. not too much, because the correct alignment will be made by using the shims on the upper control arm. I'll try to bring the lower control arm into the same position as on the right side, hope it will work!


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

considering that bracket is welded to the frame then the only way it can move is if the frame bends. if it is not too bad then what you are doing will probably be ok. just know that once you move the lower control arm your toe measurement will change drastically. moving the upper arm has already got the toe out of whack. make sure to get it back at least close before you drive back to an alignment shop.


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

I know, the alignment will be very bad if I do so, if I can move the middle of the wheel hub 0,5" to the front my sorrows should have an end  
I'll go directly to an alignment shop after it and make the best possible setup! Hope it will work as I think it should. I don't know the reason why the mounting bracket of the lower control arm has been welded.. but it isnt on the place like on the passenger side.


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

Chris,

Have you ever changed the control arm bushings? That is where I would start along with the ball joints and springs.

JMHO


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

I haven't changed these parts, but I can measure that the lower control arm are net mounted at the same position on driver and passenger side and the passenger side doesn't look like anyone has ever done some welding, the one on the driver side does.

Changing the bushings will net change my caster I think, maybe the balljoint can, but there are no signs that my old one is bad. I'll check all these parts again, change them if necessary and realize my other plan with the larger holes only if that doesn't have any effect. Thanks for the idea.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

you should get someone to do some measuring on your frame. it sounds like somebody has already been doing some jack leg work on it. the front crossmember area is the strongest part of your frame. all the suspension mounting points are in that area. if the car has been hit hard at some point the curved area behind the crossmember will bend. the upper and lower control arm mounting points will all move together. if somebody cuts and moves the lower mount (which was not uncommon to do 30-40 years ago) the relation of the upper arm to the lower one will be out of whack and even a big stack of shims wont fix it. especially if you are going to try to move it some more.

i bet your hood to fender cracks are wide on one end and tight on the other also.


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

The hood cracks are almost the same, if one fender is closer to the hood it would be the one on the drivers side, but it's hardly any difference.
I'll try to make a picture of the lower mounts on both sides to show you the difference. The one on the driver side is a litte too close on the right side. I thought I will measure the point by myself on the passenger side to the original lower mount and than do the same thing on the other side and mount the lower control arm on the rear mount on the same position as on the passenger side.

The alignment shop will prove if that was a good idea or not, if my problem is solved or if I should find someone to fix my frame (if it is bent.. maybe only the mount has been bent by some accident in the past)

Now my distance from the front to the rear wheel center are nearly the same by putting a lot of shims to the upper control arm on the left, but if I do the same on the other side to have the same camber, the caster would be incorrect on the passenger side. I need to move the lower control arm just a little to be able to remove some shims from the upper control arm and make a good alignment on both sides.

Here is a picture of my new tires (235/60/15 instead of 205/75/15). They fit a little better as the old ones because they are about an inch smaller. The original tire size was 205/75/14 on the 66 gto I think? If that is correct, they have the same height as my new tires.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

that is a beautiful car. i cant tell from the picture but is the left side the one thats low? did you measure to the ball joint. if so how much was it off? 

i cant get over that blue. really pretty car!:cheers

just when i have myself convinced to go with 17s i see those white letters and it makes second guess myself.


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

Thank you, I really like the color too 

I measured from the front and rear frame to body points to the lower ball joints, the difference is about 0,5". (shorter on the driver side)

But I just had an idea.. If the car has been hit the chance to bent the frame into the other direction (in direction of the passenger side) would be 90%, is that wrong? If so, I should have exactly the converse problem.. the lower controal arm would have moved into the front direction which gives me more caster on the left.. but I have more on the right!

All I'm sure is that the rear mount of the lower control arm has been moved by someone and hasn't been placed on the same position as on the right. If I would cut of the mount and move it a little bit would have the same effect, but that is a lot more complicated as working with the "longer holes" which gives me the ability of adjusting the lower control arm and weld the bolt on the perfect position which will give me the same distances on the driver and passenger side. The 235/60/15 fits just perfect on the passenger side with the correct setting of camber caster and toe!
What I didn't mention before.. you can see that the passanger side mount is very nice welded to the frame and the one on the driver side isn't that perfect... someone has rewelded the one on the driver side.. I could imagine if the car gets hit from the side (or only the wheel) the mount would break?! Maybe that is what happend to my car and the owner didn't want to spent too much money for a perfect fix  And yes, the car was lower on the driver side, just a litte.. maybe the springs are worn out. Which springs would you order to replace and have about the same height that you can see on the picture? Is that a 1" or 2" drop from original?


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

if you look at the frame right behind the upper control arm there is a curve out towards the outside of the car. when they take a lick that gets curved more. when that happens the lower control arm mount moves toward the engine. back in the day not as many shops had the ability (or knowledge) to straighten that boxed frame section. so they would cheat and cut the mount off and move it. someone has done the same thing to my dads impala with the old X frame. it drives ok and doesnt wear tires much so we just left it. maybe it will be ok for you.

i dont have any knowledge about the different springs but im sure someone here does.


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