# Resurrecting the Beast (was: Stuck in Wichita)



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Well, my son and I were on the Power Tour. Were being the operative word. Coming into Wichita, I started hearing a LOT of valve noise. We limped into the hotel, pulled the valve covers and found #3 intake rocker had digested itself. Sitting almost sideways on top of the valve. When we removed it, we could see where the pushrod had worn itself a brand new cup right next to the 'real' one, and the bearings/races on both sides of the pivot were just gone. That was yesterday - we worked into the night on it after getting a set of used 1.65 roller rockers from Wilhite here in Wichita, plus one pushrod, only to be stopped by not being able to get an oil filter(everything was closed when we discovered the one we got from Wilhite wouldn't clear the headers).

We finished up today after replacing all the rockers, the one pushrod, and dealing with "various" self imposed problems due to the heat and stress.

It runs, sounds just as healthy as ever.... but I keep thinking about all the fragments that we DIDN'T find in the top of the head and probably found their way down into the pan. "Everyone" seems to think that it will "probably" be ok to drive home, that the magnetic drain plug, magnet on the pan bottom, and oil pump pickup screen will keep it safe now that we've changed the oil and filter, but it's what lives on the other side of that "probably" and the fact that this is the original block that has me spooked about that.

So tomorrow morning we're picking up a uhaul tow rig (truck and flatbed) to take it home west of Fort Worth where I can tear it down and make SURE everything is clean. I've been wanting to deal with some leaks and maybe freshen up some things anyway, I just wasn't ready to do it YET.

Anyway, if anyone here is in Wichita, we're at the Motel 6 in Park City hanging out until time to go get the tow rig tomorrow morning.

Bear


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Lord be with you all. This is horrid news and comes on the heels of Goat Roper's disaster.:frown3: The U-haul is the best idea as you'll get her home with as minimal damage as possible. Sure do hate that your Power Tour vacation turned sour in this way. Hopefully you can get that engine cleaned out and running strong again with minimal bad news. Hang in there.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Well that just sucks but the trailer was the right way to go, you don't want to run it with those frags in it.
About the time you go to pick up your tow rig I will be heading down the mountain to San Ber'dino to pick up my long block.
I drilled my intake manifold and tapped it today so I can run my gauge and idiot light so I too am doing a few things this go around.
Pretty sure I have everything I need so next week it will be back in.
Post a pic of that pushrod if you can.
I would replace that whole set of pushrods.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Sorry to hear your tour was cut short, had to have been cool with your son along, but glad you caught it.

You are lucky in that the rocker arm didn't pop the spring retainer locks and suck a valve on you.

Interested in the cause on this one, aren't you using Harland Sharp roller rockers as I recall? Are you using push rod guide plates on your heads? Maybe the 2" lift on that roller cam that outruns P-40 aircraft just might be too much. You wanna keep it under .600" on the street.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

The rockers are Scorpions - and now I'm not sure I want to keep using them. I built the motor in 2010 before they updated their design and a couple years ago I did find one rocker that had cracked near the roller tip, but it was just the one. No telling when it had actually cracked because that was the first time I'd removed them all for inspection while going through a valve adjustment. Since then, I inspect them every time. The replaced it with one of their 'new' design ones and I hadn't had any problems since - until now.

So, it's all back on the table now. I might ultimately decide to change "everything" - i.e. different manufacturers, go back to 1.5:1 rockers and make the lift with the cam instead of the rockers, etc. We'll see how things go.

Bear


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## rickmpontiac (Jul 31, 2015)

Sorry to hear of your issues. Wise move with trailering it home. Hope you made home safely without any more problems.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

BearGFR said:


> The rockers are Scorpions - and now I'm not sure I want to keep using them. I built the motor in 2010 before they updated their design and a couple years ago I did find one rocker that had cracked near the roller tip, but it was just the one. No telling when it had actually cracked because that was the first time I'd removed them all for inspection while going through a valve adjustment. Since then, I inspect them every time. The replaced it with one of their 'new' design ones and I hadn't had any problems since - until now.
> 
> So, it's all back on the table now. I might ultimately decide to change "everything" - i.e. different manufacturers, go back to 1.5:1 rockers and make the lift with the cam instead of the rockers, etc. We'll see how things go.
> 
> Bear


OK, Scorpion's. I knew they were aftermarket aluminum rollers. Never used any rollers in any builds as I never built any engine needing them or could afford them. I have done a lot of research and weighed pro's and con's, gathered opinions and such and I have come to my own personal conclusion that the aluminum body rockers with roller tips are OK, full roller rockers much like you have are better, shaft paired full roller rockers are best, and steel paired full roller rockers are tops - of course $price goes up on each upgrade.

I also seem to get the sense that the aluminum roller rockers are really a strip use and not for the everyday street car unless you plan on replacing them on a regular basis to ensure no problems happen as they seem to fatigue over time - just like aluminum connecting rods, they have their place, you can run them on the street, but......

"Mayer says that in high stress applications, one of the most common failure points for a rocker arm is at the trunion straps or the trunion itself. Steel has a distinct advantage over aluminum because it can handle more stress with less material. With aluminum rockers, there is often not enough clearance to make the trunion straps big enough to provide the same strength as a steel rocker. One way straps are made thicker on aluminum rockers is to run smaller bearings and trunions however this results in a weaker trunion."

I like the stamped steel rockers, but they have their limits too. I feel they are "safer" in that you don't have to worry about aluminum fatigue, roller tips coming loose, bearings disintegrating, or lock clips coming off - and metal going into your engine.

I have opted to try the Comp Cams 1.65 roller tip rockers on my 455 when it goes together AND after I get some miles on it with the 1.5 stamped rockers. Total lift will be under .550" with the 1.65's and spring seat pressure, fully opened at .600" lift is 325 lbs, so a tad bit less at .550". The Comp roller tips state not to use on springs rated at 350 lbs or more. They are steel and the roller tip has the one pin, not a bunch of needle bearings. Pushrod holes have been elongated for the 1.65 ratio. Heck, the 1.5's may work great as is and I'll just keep it at that, but I want to try the 1.65's just to see if there is any improvements in engine power/torque.

But even with the best planned engine, best engine parts, and expert assembly.........there is Murphy's Law, right? LOL


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Terrible news, but you made the absolute right call. Trailer it home and get it torn apart.....yours is _not_ a disposable engine! I too would like to know the cause....and you know how conservative and 'old school' I am with performance mods.....for just this reason. The nightmares I've heard about failed needle bearings in roller rockers and lifters are enough to keep me old-school. If quality were controllable, it would be a different story. But we can't make/build/do everything ourselves....we have to be able to buy quality and trust workmanship _somewhere_, you'd think! Bright side is at least you are out there on the two lane blacktop living the dream. This will be a war story for later on down the line. Keep us posted, please.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Noticed on the PY forum and here where PH spoke well of them, that many are using the Crower stainless roller rockers for strength and longevity. May be a possibility for your rebuild.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cro-73627-16


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I've been beginning to research parts and options. Right now, I'm tending towards the Crower stainless steel roller rockers and also replacing the lifters with new ones (like the ones from Isky) that use bushings for the roller wheel axles instead of needle bearings, as this point is usually where failures happen with roller lifters - and of course replacing all the pushrods.

I was thinking about going with a more aggressive cam, but might change my mind there. These heads would benefit from more lift, but more lift means more spring pressure needed and more spring pressure means more stress on all these components.

I'm tentatively planning to start getting the motor out today, however we've officially entered the Texas summer heat and my shop isn't set up with A/C yet so I'll be taking my sweet time on that one.

Once it's out and torn down, everything will be on the table. Things such as new pistons to put the compression where it needs to be for these heads, more oiling system changes that I forgot to do the first time like drilling the rear oil gallery plug to oil the distributor gear, checking all the bearings, possibly re-honing and re-ringing (I'm not positive the current rings ever really sealed), putting a couple studs on both heads to make dealing with these infernal headers a little easier, etc. This engine lasted 5 years and 1.5 Power Tours before this happened so it'll be an opportunity to evaluate how well I did things the first time and adjust where needed. Other possibilities: repaint the engine compartment (I've decided that gloss black looks a lot nicer even if it's not original), replacing the fiberglas firewall panel for the a/c that was damaged in the 2013 fire, checking into reviving and re-installing the factory a/c in favor of the (wimpy) aftermarket unit I have now, perhaps a better quality torque converter... we'll see.

Bear


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## john23 (Mar 6, 2016)

what a drag, my condolences, but you made the right choice....i have junked 2 455 rebuilds with metal and carbon in the oil....thanks to that my 455 is now .065 over...try buying pistons and finding rings for that! get the trailer, get it home and tear it apart....cut your losses, good luck..


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

BearGFR said:


> I've been beginning to research parts and options. Right now, I'm tending towards the Crower stainless steel roller rockers and also replacing the lifters with new ones (like the ones from Isky) that use bushings for the roller wheel axles instead of needle bearings, as this point is usually where failures happen with roller lifters - and of course replacing all the pushrods.
> 
> I was thinking about going with a more aggressive cam, but might change my mind there. These heads would benefit from more lift, but more lift means more spring pressure needed and more spring pressure means more stress on all these components.
> 
> ...


A lot of work in front of you but the Texas heat may help, giving you time to decide on things without being rushed. You and your GTO have a history...it can only come out better when its all done and done. Best of luck!
(Now back with my old username, crazy)


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

My son and I have the motor out now. Before I start tearing it down I'm going to run a leak down test, hopefully to assess how well it's sealed up especially on the rings. I already know it's leaking around the rear main, so I want to find out if it's likely to be passing oil anywhere else. I don't want to have to do this job again for a loooooong time.

Bear


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## NFDMedic (May 27, 2016)

Better be safe than gritty when it comes to oil...


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

You've probably already seen this on the PY forum but it looked pertinent to your Scorpion problems.

Ranking Roller Rockers for Pontiacs - PY Online Forums

1.6:1 Rocker-Arm Comparo - Hot Rod Magazine

Hope this is of some interest.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

1968gto421 said:


> You've probably already seen this on the PY forum but it looked pertinent to your Scorpion problems.
> 
> Ranking Roller Rockers for Pontiacs - PY Online Forums
> 
> ...


I read both - thanks for those. I'm a member at PY but only go there rarely so I tend to forget it's there. "Here" is my favorite forum. 

I'm still thinking and talking. The engine is out but I haven't torn into yet because I want to run a leak down test on it before I start taking it apart. As is per usual, there are opinions "all over the map" with regard to street and long term viability/durability of solid vs. hydraulic valve trains, so I've not made a decision yet on what to go back with. Right now, one of the leading candidates is another solid roller setup from Bullet Cams (formerly Ultradyne) that will give me a few degrees more duration and a couple tenths more lift, even using 1.5:1 rockers instead of the current 1.65's. I think I like the idea of going back to 1.5's because it seems like that will result in less stress on the rockers. Also, the plan now is to use Crower stainless steel rockers for several reasons, confirmed by what I read in the HotRod article above. I could keep the same cam, same lifters (after sending them to Comp for inspection and possible rebuild), and use Crower stainless 1.65's since I already know this combination makes it an 11 second car, or I could "change everything" and switch to a hydraulic roller set up. Keeping most of the present setup is the least expensive route of course, but for me cost is secondary to making it last - especially since this is the original block.

More to follow as things develop.

Bear


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

BearGFR said:


> I read both - thanks for those. I'm a member at PY but only go there rarely so I tend to forget it's there. "Here" is my favorite forum.
> 
> I'm still thinking and talking. The engine is out but I haven't torn into yet because I want to run a leak down test on it before I start taking it apart. As is per usual, there are opinions "all over the map" with regard to street and long term viability/durability of solid vs. hydraulic valve trains, so I've not made a decision yet on what to go back with. Right now, one of the leading candidates is another solid roller setup from Bullet Cams (formerly Ultradyne) that will give me a few degrees more duration and a couple tenths more lift, even using 1.5:1 rockers instead of the current 1.65's. I think I like the idea of going back to 1.5's because it seems like that will result in less stress on the rockers. Also, the plan now is to use Crower stainless steel rockers for several reasons, confirmed by what I read in the HotRod article above. I could keep the same cam, same lifters (after sending them to Comp for inspection and possible rebuild), and use Crower stainless 1.65's since I already know this combination makes it an 11 second car, or I could "change everything" and switch to a hydraulic roller set up. Keeping most of the present setup is the least expensive route of course, but for me cost is secondary to making it last - especially since this is the original block.
> 
> ...


Bear, I can sympathize as I had an aluminum roller rocker lose the roller tip and released my valve keeper dropping the valve and destroying the head and piston. I went with the stainless rockers and also a stud girdle which I highly recommend.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Was at Greer Dragway last night with my brother who does SBC engines for a lot of local guys. The guys running in the top classes use the big professional shops and we were talking with them. I brought up pushrods since you and Goat Roper have had problems with them. Almost all of them said that the best quality were Smith Brothers Pushrods. It was alleged that Smith makes the better pushrods offered by some cam companies under their own name. Besides race pushrods, Smith makes quality ones for the street/strip guys, too. Here's their site:

Smith Bros. Pushrods | Redmond Oregon

(I also noticed on PY that alot of folks there use not only Smith Bros, but also a company called Manton. More food for thought.:confused)

Manton Pushrods


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Two things: I recommend the new one-piece BOP rear main (have only installed one, but it works well), and I would be inclined to keep the solid roller set-up if it could be made bulletproof. I don't see a real up-side to going hydraulic. Adjusting mechanical's is no big deal (I actually enjoy it) and they get the job done. Good luck with your new improved combo....and EXCELLENT planning doing a leak-down test before tear-down....absolutely vital information can be gotten only through this method, and you'll have a real baseline on your engine's cylinder condition. Good luck.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Well, if the little doodad on the side bar is correct, *this makes my 5,000th post on this forum.* Who'd a thunk a Texas ******* nerd would have made it this far?

I've talked to a few folks. Jim, Jim Butler, and Tim Langley at Bullet Cams. The consensus seems to be that needle rollers are better (than the new bushed roller lifters) for most applications due to the fact that the spaces between the bearings allow for better oiling. The down side is that when they do wear and fail, it can be 'worse'. How to tell? Keep track of the changes when you (re)adjust the valves. If you find that clearances are opening up significantly from time to time, that's a clue that something is wearing. Makes sense to me.

Results of my leakdown testing (keep in mind this was on a stone cold engine sitting on the stand, and this test is supposed to be run on a 'hot' engine, so the numbers are probably higher than they would be on a warm engine).
1: 25%
8: 18%
4: 13%
3: 22%
6: 11%
5: 22%
7: 20%
2: 18%

Not horrible - especially on #6 since that's the "hole" where I have the problem with the cracked head before I switched to aluminum. I would have expected the coolant leak to have affected the rings and the seal on that one. They're all in the "green" on the leakdown tester at least, but still there's more variance there and a little higher than I'd like. I was already thinking about changing pistons in order to get compression up to where it should be for these aluminum heads and also to get some quench back anyway.

Bullet has a cam available that would provide just a little more duration and lift than what I'm running now, plus it does that with 1.5:1 rockers (I have 1.65's now) and even though it's "bigger" than my current one from Comp, the closing ramps are more gentle - thus easier on the valves and valve seats - than the Comp. Right now I'm really liking that idea, especially the "more gentle" part of the softer closing ramps and less stress on the rockers from the lower ratio while potentially even gaining some power.

The direction I'm thinking right now: Crower stainless 1.5:1 rockers, Crower (solid roller with HIPPO oiling) lifters, the Bullet cam - pushrods to match - PAC springs to Bullet's specifications for that cam (200 lbs on the seat, 475 open). Pistons with 15-18 cc's of D-shaped dish which will put me at 10.3:1 and get my quench back. One piece main seal and pan gasket. Or course I'll inspect everything - bearings, etc. and deal with whatever else I find.

Other things I'll be doing now that I have 'access'. Replace the block drain plugs with petcocks to make draining all the coolant easier, should I ever need to. Drilling the "internal" oil gallery plug to provide oiling for the distributor drive gear (forgot to do that the first time), at least two studs on each head to hang the headers on so that installing them is easier, double-checking TDC marks on the balancer, considering adding a mechanical oil pressure gauge using the plug on the top rear of the block as a source, possibly also an additional temp guage. I've got factory Rallye guages now, but it would be nice to have a second set to verify accuracy. 

Also while it's out I'll be able to clean up the effects of 'the fire' that I couldn't get to before and just generally spruce things up. I might also pull the dash and see if I can't either get more air flow out of that wimpy aftermarket a/c somehow, replace it, or try to revive my factory system --- put another layer of insulation on the front floor and firewall.

Also considering a different converter. I hear Continental makes a "tight 10" that acts almost like a stock converter on the street but still lets the engine flash to 3000 or so when you want it to. While I'm at it, I might move the auxilliary trans oil cooler from it's current spot in front of the a/c condenser and radiator to 'somewhere else' where it doesn't add heat to those two systems because I'm thinking that might help the a/c some.

We'll see how it all goes.

Bear


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

May or may not be statistically significant, but I find it interesting that all the left bank cylinders are over 20% and all the right bank cylinders are in the teens.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Good catch! 
I hadn't noticed that. 

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

As few miles as you have, your leakdown is too high, even though in the green. The worn out 383 in my '61 Vette is 30% on every hole, and it smokes like a train out of the breather when you open both carbs. SBC's in our fleet at work typically have less than 10% leakdown at about 90,000 miles. Both my GTO's are less than 15%, the '65 with 50-60k on the rebuild, and the '67 with 90k on the rebuild. Both cars are running the old-school 'heavy' sealed power forged pistons. Chrome rings in the 389, iron rings in the 400. I like the idea of new pistons to match the heads, since you originally built this as a round port iron head engine. You'll be at a better power level more efficiently. You've done SO MUCH work on this car, this engine freshen-up and paint repair will be a breeze. I would be really curious to see what your cylinder taper and out of round is.....that would tell if the block was bored and honed properly at CVMS. With blowby in the teens and twenties this early on, I can only imagine what it would have been with 60 or 80k on this rebuild!


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

It was a local race shop that did all the machine work. Kim Barr Racing Engines in Garland. How much did the engine being cold instead of warm affect the numbers I wonder?

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I forgot to mention this in the PM, Bear. A cold test is not a true indicator due to piston and ring expansion....it will tell you if you have a burnt valve, but for the finer stuff, the engine being warm will give you a more conclusive test. If it's already partially torn down, you could inspect the cylinders, pistons, and rings to verify all is ok. And knowing CVMS did NOT do the machine work is a plus, too.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

geeteeohguy said:


> I forgot to mention this in the PM, Bear. A cold test is not a true indicator due to piston and ring expansion....it will tell you if you have a burnt valve, but for the finer stuff, the engine being warm will give you a more conclusive test.


I knew that doing it cold wasn't going to be an accurate test, but I didn't know how much it would affect the results. Once we got it home, I didn't want to run it any more than I absolutely had to.

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I PM'd ya!


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