# A Day at the Races



## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

So ever since I got this car together I wanted to see if it had any balls at the track, I've only been a passenger once so this was my first time racing. First time up my catch can starting puking because I cleaned it out and over filled it so they backed me off the track and I had to siphon some water off. Then my first run I didn't get good traction and let off to early because the finish line isn't marked good so I ran a 13.64. Next time I jumped the light and ran a 12.9, the third pass after the intermission I lowered the rear tires to 15lbs from 22lbs and they re coated the track so I hooked and booked, as dumb luck would have it a leaf blew into the finish photo eye and wiped out my time. The fourth and fatal pass I popped the clutch and broke something in the rear end. Luckily my son was there and he was going to ride with me on the next pass but now was helping me winch the car onto the trailer and then helped
me unload it pushing it into the garage for a long winter. It was a fun, nerve wracking, crapping my pants exciting, disappointing and expensive, can't wait to do it next year day.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)




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## AZTempest (Jun 11, 2019)

Man that looked so cool. Looks like you really got with the program.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Thanks, it was exciting and I was getting the hang of it but then the rear end gave out. Looking for suggestions on something that will hold up better.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Gotta figure based on the 1000 foot that your third pass was a tick quicker than the one where you jumped the light. Decent run! All in all this was a good outcome, even considering the blown rear. Maybe it's not too bad, or time for a Ford 9"?


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## Sick467 (Oct 29, 2019)

Track time fun / break time...not so fun. Sorry to hear about the rear. Do I remember correctly that it was a 12 bolt?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> Thanks, it was exciting and I was getting the hang of it but then the rear end gave out. Looking for suggestions on something that will hold up better.


Unfortunately, there's no way to race and drive on the street. At best, you'll be fixing stuff left and right... even more so than every other 60's muscle car owner, which is weekly. At worst, you'll be dumping endless coin into it to make it hold up to abuse... and then still fixing it constantly.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Sick467 said:


> Track time fun / break time...not so fun. Sorry to hear about the rear. Do I remember correctly that it was a 12 bolt?


Yes it was built 12bolt with Strange axles and an Eaton posi, I jacked up one side at a time last night and each wheel turns by itself and my kid could see the driveshaft turning but the car wouldn't move. Boy there was a bad clunking noise under the car when they pulled me back to the pits, but at least I didn't loose an axle going down the track, here I was thinking I would finally get a TKX 😉


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Jared said:


> Gotta figure based on the 1000 foot that your third pass was a tick quicker than the one where you jumped the light. Decent run! All in all this was a good outcome, even considering the blown rear. Maybe it's not too bad, or time for a Ford 9"?


Ya that was a shame a leaf messed it up because I felt good on that one, I was hoping to break 12 seconds but I guess I need more car. Idk if I'm going to trust another 12bolt or I give up the racing, what about a Dana 60? And maybe I try a 3.55 gear because I would barely get it into 4th before the finish line with this 3.42 but then my rpms are up on the street, but maybe someday a TKX will be in it 😉


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

9" --- stronger and better than a 12-bolt in my opinion at least. 
A friend of mine "up north" runs a 9" in his '69 with a manual transmission, and it's an honest 10-second car that pulls the front wheels during launch.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Obviously I haven't had time to research it but do they make a 9" that plugs into my '65 using my lift bars, sway bar, shocks and the adjustable upper arms I just bought? I know I would have to adjust the drive shaft but I really don't want to have to change all the suspension.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Yes. - I also have a 9" in my car. I bought mine through Spohn Engineering. It's made by Moser, has their good axles in it along with a Wavetrac limited slip, 3.50 gears, 1350 series U-joints on both ends. It was "plug and play" on installation, except for needing a custom drive shaft (which I also got from Spohn along with the different front yoke for the 1350 joints). Mine's a Moser but other manufacturers such as Currie have them too. I'll admit, they aren't cheap, but during my build my intention was to use good parts and over-engineer things, hopefully so I'd only have to do it once.

Bear


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> I give up the racing,


There you go, answering your own questions.

Nothing wrong with racing, but it just goes hand-in-hand with breaking.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> Obviously I haven't had time to research it but do they make a 9" that plugs into my '65 using my lift bars, sway bar, shocks and the adjustable upper arms I just bought? I know I would have to adjust the drive shaft but I really don't want to have to change all the suspension.


My vote is to give up racing, and build a solid BOP to start getting some originality back, which will increase the value of the car as well. 

Even if you get a $$$$ 9inch rear, the minute that you attempt to exploit it, something else is just going to break. Regardless of the fact that your engine was built to run, your car was only built to walk. 

This is an age old dilemma. Ive been hanging around and driving in GTO's, since 1986, and all of the fastest ones I ever saw, were broken down more than running. You have to consider that; when on the showroom floor, these engines in stock form, made more power than these cars could handle. So when you add 200hp, 175 ftlbs of torque, and 58 years to the age of the supporting components... what would you expect to happen?

OTOH, if racing is your flavor, then pull the body, box the frame, add a full cage, buy the 9", and enjoy!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

BearGFR said:


> Yes. - I also have a 9" in my car. I bought mine through Spohn Engineering. It's made by Moser, has their good axles in it along with a Wavetrac limited slip, 3.50 gears, 1350 series U-joints on both ends. It was "plug and play" on installation, except for needing a custom drive shaft (which I also got from Spohn along with the different front yoke for the 1350 joints). Mine's a Moser but other manufacturers such as Currie have them too. I'll admit, they aren't cheap, but during my build my intention was to use good parts and over-engineer things, hopefully so I'd only have to do it once.
> 
> Bear
> View attachment 158408
> ...


Wow that is a nice setup and does look expensive, so did you do this just for the occasional race day or did you plan on doing a lot of racing?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> My vote is to give up racing, and build a solid BOP to start getting some originality back, which will increase the value of the car as well.
> 
> Even if you get a $$$$ 9inch rear, the minute that you attempt to exploit it, something else is just going to break. Regardless of the fact that your engine was built to run, your car was only built to walk.
> 
> ...


Dose my car look like I'm worried about originality and I'm not selling it so I don't care about the value either, I think if I would have cracked the 11's I would be happy and not have to race it anymore because I know this or something worse can happen. So I have to decide if I want to still chase that which means a better rear end or rebuild what I have and stay off the track because it's just going to blow out again with a stick shift. It's to bad because the motor ran like a beast, I didn't miss a shift and I was just starting to get traction plus the car was stable all the way down....it was just getting fun and not so nerve raking.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> Dose my car look like I'm worried about originality


YES!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> YES!


Ha ha, ok maybe some things I like to look close to stock.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

The silver lining of this is that my wife was scared to death for me but after the first run she was good and having fun, so to my surprise she said fix the car so we can do it some more and she would like to go to some bigger events...course she had a couple glasses of wine 😉 I'm taking that as a green light to a new and improved rear end right? I got lucky and picked a good one 👍


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> Ha ha, ok maybe some things I like to look close to stock.


"Admitting" is the first step in the healing process. 

Obviously I try to keep my car appearing as stock as possible, too. It's my preferred style.


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

my opinion is enjoy the car how ever makes you smile. hell don't save it for the next guy to have all the fun. or maybe get a less nice example and race it and cruise the one you have. have your cake and eat it too.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Ford 9" is on my wish list too. They are available with with the A body set up from several builders including direct from the big players (Currie and Moser). It's really easy to push the cost up over $5000 with add ons which keeps it on the wish list for the time being.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Jared said:


> Ford 9" is on my wish list too. They are available with with the A body set up from several builders including direct from the big players (Currie and Moser). It's really easy to push the cost up over $5000 with add ons which keeps it on the wish list for the time being.


Ya I'm seeing that, yikes..if I did that then no paint work for another year. Good thing I got the valve covers and shocks first I guess or I could sell them to fund the diff.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

ponchonlefty said:


> my opinion is enjoy the car how ever makes you smile. hell don't save it for the next guy to have all the fun. or maybe get a less nice example and race it and cruise the one you have. have your cake and eat it too.


I don't want to race a lot but I was hoping to break into the 11's and be done, since I put an expensive motor and drive line I didn't want it just for show but to prove it could go also otherwise I would have left everything stock. So I have to see how bad the damage is then make some decisions. Just thought a built 12bolt could handle it but I guess not.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Baaad65 said:


> I don't want to race a lot but I was hoping to break into the 11's and be done, since I put an expensive motor and drive line I didn't want it just for show but to prove it could go also otherwise I would have left everything stock. So I have to see how bad the damage is then make some decisions. Just thought a built 12bolt could handle it but I guess not.


You may need to go with a gear ratio you wouldn't be happy with on the street to get into the 11's. I'm kinda surprised the 12 bolt didn't hold up too.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I went with a 9" on my '68 Lemans. Reason being is that I feel they are stronger than the 12-bolt and they have been a popular rear end with drag racers and hot rodders alike. Introduced in 1957 and I feel that their longevity in use along with parts availability will be around a lot longer than the 12-bolt. Next reason is you can very easily build a center section with a set of gears to go racing, then pull it out as an assembly, and install another set to drive on. You can't do that with a 12-bolt.

In any case, you can get a rear axle to fit your car, then build the rear as you want. Or, you can order a complete rear end and go that route. My rear end housing was a bolt-in. I however selected the parts I wanted to use and have installed which probably cost more to do it this way, but I got the parts I wanted to use. I went with the heavier and larger 1350 U-joints, so you want to have the input shaft on the rear to be the 1350 and then I got a 1350 transmission yoke for the TKO. Have yet to measure/purchase my driveshaft. Pontiac already has the larger U-joints, I believe the 1330's, which are bigger than the Chevy U-joints. The 1330's would probably work, but you will still have driveshaft length issues -which means you can have your driveshaft cut down, re-welded, and balanced at a shop that does this, really not a big issue versus purchasing a new shaft. But my choice since I was the heavier 1350 U-joints on both ends and a custom driveshaft.

Here is my 9" build sheet and the parts I chose and the cost. Keep in mind this was about 6 years ago, so who knows what it would cost now, but you can see what I did.

*9" FORD Rear Axle Assembly - 1968 LeMans*

Quick Performance GM A-body 9" housing w/31 spline axles - $745.00
Upgrade to 1/4" heavy walled axle tube rated for 600HP+ - $ 30.00 
Upgrade to new housing center piece & big billet bearing ends - $100.00
11" drum brake kit - fully assembled - $300.00
Shipping  - $130.00

Yukon Nodular big-bearing differential case - $354.03
Currie 9-Plus Big bearing pinion support - $114.95
Currie Open carrier case - $105.95
Bolts - Grade 8 for pinion support - $ 7.45
Complete Timken bearing/seal/installation kit - $136.95
Pinion bearing solid spacer kit - $ 16.95
9-Plus big bearing forged driveshaft pinion yoke - $130.55

Power-Trax No-slip locker -$430.00
Shipping -$ 15.65

Motive Gear 3.89 ratio ring & pinion gear set - $189.97

Shop assembly of third member/set-up gears - $128.98

Parts Total -$2,661.80
Shipping Total -$ 145.65
Labor Total -$ 128.98

TOTAL $2,936.43


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## lust4speed (Jul 5, 2019)

Warning, drag racing is addicting and there is no end to the money and time spent on the car -- but man is it fun.

The GTO in my avatar has had a 12-bolt originally installed in the early 70's and the car is currently running 9.8's at 134 so I have no idea why your 12-bolt went south breaking (pun) into the 12's. Possible incorrect assembly or maybe a defective part. I suspect you will find teeth stripped off the ring and pinion gears which could be the result of too much clearance or even a defective set of gears. Might even have been spider gears blowing out, and Tom's Differentials sells hardened spider gears for a little extra insurance if that happens to have been the problem. A properly set up 12-bolt should have no problems of surviving down at least into the low tens with ease. You might consider having it rebuilt by a different shop with a good reputation.

The reason on my street car I didn't go with a 12-bolt was simple economics, both Moser and Strange Engineering wanted more for a complete 12-bolt than for either a 9-inch or Dana 60, and the 12 does come in third in strength behind the other two (but still really strong).

I went with the Strange Engineering Dana 60 for my street/strip GTO, but most of my friends have opted for the Currie 9-inch. Either are totally bulletproof on the street so it doesn't matter much on the choice, and either one will require shortening the current driveshaft.

Strange manufactures new housings and they extend the upper ears for the control arms which does the same as the old no-hop bars that we all added on our stock housings back in the day. Ring gear size on the Dana is 9-3/4" so a lot of beef there also.









My buddy and I placed our orders together so two rears showed up. Slightly different overall lengths since we took advantage of the ordering and centered our wheels in the wheelwell, and he had slightly different backspacing on his wheels. We did go with the Ford large bearings and 11" drums. Price between disk and drum was very close, and it was just personal preference going with the big drums over disks.


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## 1971LemansWisc (Apr 18, 2021)

Baaad65 -

Watched your video multiple times.

Freaking coolest thing I've watched in a long time ... Thank you! 

Reminds me of when we would go to Great Lakes Dragaway in Union Grove, Wisconsin for "Race your Buddy" (Grudge) nights.

Had a '72 GTO 400 4-speed back then and my best buddy ran a wicked ’69 Camaro.

I lost more races than I won … but it was incredible times!

Can respect both Army's and your perspective ... for me, once I get my '71 done … fully plan a trip to the track.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Jared said:


> You may need to go with a gear ratio you wouldn't be happy with on the street to get into the 11's. I'm kinda surprised the 12 bolt didn't hold up too.


Ya that's what I was thinking because like I said I was running out of road going into fourth gear, maybe I go with a 3:55 but that's not much more than my 3:42...if it's to much on the street I would have a good excuse for a TKX down the road 😉


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> I went with a 9" on my '68 Lemans. Reason being is that I feel they are stronger than the 12-bolt and they have been a popular rear end with drag racers and hot rodders alike. Introduced in 1957 and I feel that their longevity in use along with parts availability will be around a lot longer than the 12-bolt. Next reason is you can very easily build a center section with a set of gears to go racing, then pull it out as an assembly, and install another set to drive on. You can't do that with a 12-bolt.
> 
> In any case, you can get a rear axle to fit your car, then build the rear as you want. Or, you can order a complete rear end and go that route. My rear end housing was a bolt-in. I however selected the parts I wanted to use and have installed which probably cost more to do it this way, but I got the parts I wanted to use. I went with the heavier and larger 1350 U-joints, so you want to have the input shaft on the rear to be the 1350 and then I got a 1350 transmission yoke for the TKO. Have yet to measure/purchase my driveshaft. Pontiac already has the larger U-joints, I believe the 1330's, which are bigger than the Chevy U-joints. The 1330's would probably work, but you will still have driveshaft length issues -which means you can have your driveshaft cut down, re-welded, and balanced at a shop that does this, really not a big issue versus purchasing a new shaft. But my choice since I was the heavier 1350 U-joints on both ends and a custom driveshaft.
> 
> ...


Wow that's a good price for that much rear end, should be bullet proof. I have 1350 joints and yokes now with a Strange shaft all that held up.


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## lust4speed (Jul 5, 2019)

12-Bolt abuse about a month ago...


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

lust4speed said:


> Warning, drag racing is addicting and there is no end to the money and time spent on the car -- but man is it fun.
> 
> The GTO in my avatar has had a 12-bolt originally installed in the early 70's and the car is currently running 9.8's at 134 so I have no idea why your 12-bolt went south breaking (pun) into the 12's. Possible incorrect assembly or maybe a defective part. I suspect you will find teeth stripped off the ring and pinion gears which could be the result of too much clearance or even a defective set of gears. Might even have been spider gears blowing out, and Tom's Differentials sells hardened spider gears for a little extra insurance if that happens to have been the problem. A properly set up 12-bolt should have no problems of surviving down at least into the low tens with ease. You might consider having it rebuilt by a different shop with a good reputation.
> 
> ...


Your right I was getting into it and felt safe knowing I wasn't on some country road and boy does that 13 seconds go by fast. I looked at that same diff at lunch and liked the feature of the raised upper arm mounts because I did get a little wheel hop but I don't have my new adjustable upper arms in yet. Idk what rpm I was leaving at but it wasn't at my shift rpm of 5700rpm but it was probably between 4-5k so that's still quite a shock to everything. I would put the motor at maybe 3000 rpm and simultaneously punch the throttle and pop the clutch. I found this guy in NC 5 years ago who only builds rear ends so I hope he set it up right, he used Strange axles and an Eaton posi and I haven't had any problems with it so far but the combo of sticky tires with lower pressure and re coated track is a whole different situation.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

lust4speed said:


> 12-Bolt abuse about a month ago...
> View attachment 158435


WOW that's crazy cool ! What motor and trans are you running?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

1971LemansWisc said:


> Baaad65 -
> 
> Watched your video multiple times.
> 
> ...


Thank you, ya it was sweet while it lasted, I have a couple more videos I'll post. We were waiting for a rental helmet for my son so he could film from inside the car but I broke it before we could do that. I was up at Great Lakes with my '67 back in the 80's for a Pontiac show but I drove three other people and we were 1.5 hours away from home so I didn't race it. As I just learned be prepared and trailer it 😉


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

1971LemansWisc said:


> Baaad65 -
> 
> Watched your video multiple times.
> 
> ...


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> I don't want to race a lot but I was hoping to break into the 11's and be done, since I put an expensive motor and drive line I didn't want it just for show


Don't be so hard on yourself, bro. Countless people before you have spent ten times as much time and money, for something that does NOTHING more than show.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

lust4speed said:


> Warning, drag racing is addicting and there is no end to the money and time spent on the car


I led with that!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> maybe I go with a 3:55 but that's not much more than my 3:42


In the drag racing world, minute changes, such as those, are done every day. It's a timely and precision process.

No "big engine" ever won anybody anything... it's hundreds of t's being crossed and thousands of i's being dotted, that wins a race. That's why I don't see a classic car/ 55-year-old -Sunday-driver, being a good platform for pulling double duty as a track car.

It's not that you can't make a 65 GTO a bad-ass track car, but you're going to spend twice as much money and time doing it, as a guy with a 2008 Mustang, and then he's going to kick your ass. Then he's going to drive to Pizza Hut, and your going to go home and spend $3500 fixing your car, so that you can take a cruise with wifey on Sunday.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> In the drag racing world, minute changes, such as those, are done every day. It's a timely and precision process.
> 
> No "big engine" ever won anybody anything... it's hundreds of t's being crossed and thousands of i's being dotted, that wins a race. That's why I don't see a classic car/ 55-year-old -Sunday-driver, being a good platform for pulling double duty as a track car.
> 
> It's not that you can't make a 65 GTO a bad-ass track car, but you're going to spend twice as much money and time doing it, as a guy with a 2008 Mustang, and then he's going to kick your ass. Then he's going to drive to Pizza Hut, and your going to go home and spend $3500 fixing your car, so that you can take a cruise with wifey on Sunday.


That's true but I don't care about beating anyone, never even thought about the person in the other lane. I just want to satisfy myself and make spending all this money, time and effort on big hp and high end drive line mean that it adds up to a decent time, that was always my goal to have the nuts to back up the look, otherwise I would have left the underwhelming 455 with a rod knock, the old M20, the stock drive shaft, the peg leg rear end, the 14" wheels and the drum brakes in place, I want a show and go car within reason and I almost got there, I'm not try to get 10's out of this. Different strokes my friend, some want showroom stock some want a road course car some want a daily driver..this is what I want and I'll get there. Remember it's the thrill of the chase that keeps us doing this


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> Different strokes my friend


You're preaching to the choir there. "Opinions" have nothing to do with it... This is math.

You sound like a guy who's wondering if he can cheaply and easily accomplish something that every other classic car owner, over the last 40 years, wouldve loved to do. 

You think Im trying to change your mind, when in fact, Im merely trying to prepare you for what to expect... because Ive been doing it for 35 years, and listening to all of the guys in here, who've been doing it since before I was born.

You bought a giant motor and then installed it with sticky tires... So I presume that you knew what would come next, and it did.

Now you're talking about lowering the gear ratio and adding heavy duty suspension parts... but we're still working on a 58 year old chassis, which correct me if Im wrong, had traffic signs riveted to it as part of the restoration process?

As others have already mentioned, the 12 bolt shouldve stood up to what you were doing... but it didn't. So, by all means, buy your Ford 9" and install your adjustable arms. But then expect to rip your frame apart, twist the driveshaft, or start creasing body panels.

I've been listening to you build this car for the last year, and all of it has led me to believe that you were looking for a very potent, weekend cruiser, which you have already accomplished and should be proud of. I'd be a crappy friend and listener if I ignored all of your previous posts, and instead sent you down a rabbit hole.

If you've listened to all of the old-skool guys on this forum, then you you know that in stock form, these cars with manual transmissions broke EVERYTHING!

So, you can think Im trying to talk you out of racing, but all Im trying to do is prevent you from breaking your cherished ride, and decommissioning it from why you _really_ bought it.

For the record, I only have half your horsepower and yet, I installed a full Global West suspension and frame supports, before I did anything to the engine.


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

Baaad65 said:


> That's true but I don't care about beating anyone, never even thought about the person in the other lane. I just want to satisfy myself and make spending all this money, time and effort on big hp and high end drive line mean that it adds up to a decent time, that was always my goal to have the nuts to back up the look, otherwise I would have left the underwhelming 455 with a rod knock, the old M20, the stock drive shaft, the peg leg rear end, the 14" wheels and the drum brakes in place, I want a show and go car within reason and I almost got there, I'm not try to get 10's out of this. Different strokes my friend, some want showroom stock some want a road course car some want a daily driver..this is what I want and I'll get there. Remember it's the thrill of the chase that keeps us doing this


the 12 bolts are strong but you have to build them for racing. the racers use a spacer instead of a crush collar.this may have been the failure.causing it to deflect the pinion from the ring gear. i would build the 12 bolt since that you already have it. that car has some speed in it but when racing you may find all the weakness one part at a time. have fun and be safe.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I hear you


ponchonlefty said:


> the 12 bolts are strong but you have to build them for racing. the racers use a spacer instead of a crush collar.this may have been the failure.causing it to deflect the pinion from the ring gear. i would build the 12 bolt since that you already have it. that car has some speed in it but when racing you may find all the weakness one part at a time. have fun and be safe.


I haven't got it apart yet but that sounds like what happened, it was just a stock rear from a '66 Chevelle and the guy just put in Strange axels and an Eaton posi plus new bearings so I suppose it was nothing special but it had the gear and the price I wanted so I jumped on it then in 2018 when I put the motor, trans and drive shaft in I upgraded the pinion yoke to a forged 1350 using the same crush collar. It was fine until now but racing is a whole different kind of shock to everything especially with a manual trans and traction. It would be nice to leave it in the car and fix it depending on what's wrong but I don't know if I trust it to race with it again and I have only set up one diff with my dad's help and a Chilton's manual in the 80's so hopefully I can figure it out. Summit does have a Strange Dana S60 plug and play unit for under 3K but that's a lot of bucks yet and I have to get my drive shaft shortened.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> You're preaching to the choir there. "Opinions" have nothing to do with it... This is math.
> 
> You sound like a guy who's wondering if he can cheaply and easily accomplish something that every other classic car owner, over the last 40 years, wouldve loved to do.
> 
> ...


I hear you, but I thought I prepped the car pretty good with a built 12 bolt, solid lower arms reinforced uppers, triangulation bars, good shocks and springs...and it's not like I have 700 hp with 12" inch slicks I have at best 500 at the crank and 9.3" drag radials. I think ponch is right that something happened to the pinion. And if your keeping score it wasn't street signs it was a breaker panel cover


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> And if your keeping score it wasn't street signs it was a breaker panel cover


Well, whatever route you choose, I wish you and your ride the best. Hopefully you'll just blow a breaker next time.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I really appreciate all the help and opinions from everyone more than you know and I'm going to need more that's for sure.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Not all drag racing equipment is expensive. Here's a list of cheap essentials to get you started!


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Funny. That's the same list of things you need to own a Ford.

All joking aside here, this sounds like the type of thing that @Baaad65 has to do. As someone who has missed out on things and regretted it after, I think he should do it, if his wallet and the wife are on board. That being said, I also think taking a very good look at the rest of the car is in order as well, as Amy mentioned (maybe not in the kindest of ways, but his heart was in the right place). Keeping in mind the money goes quick on cars that are raced. 

This may be a relevant story or it may not be. But I had a friend who was racing a 69 Camaro back in the early to mid 90s. It was a low mileage, rust free, and matching numbers 307 power glide car that he bought for $3500. He installed a high compression 427 and a 4 speed manual trans with a 12 bolt running whatever drag radials were back then. Otherwise the suspension was stock with traction bars. He brought it to the track twice set up like that. First time out he twisted the driveshaft. Second time out the car hooked and the rear shocks punched through their mounts and went through the floor of the car. He was able to make a couple passes before the failures and the car was good for a mid to high 12 second quarter. He fixed that and twisted another driveshaft street racing. He pulled the 427 out and installed a high compression 468 with an automatic and back halfed the car (tube chassis, full roll cage and tubbed but with the wider rear axle at first. He later swapped it to a narrow rear with huge tires but I lost touch with him before he ever ran it like that). Anyway, he was running 10.5 inch slicks and the car would finally hold together and go down the track. That configuration was good for low 11's in the quarter. He was into the car for close to $80K by that point and the car was no longer drivable on the street.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Jared said:


> as Amy mentioned (maybe not in the kindest of ways,


It was tough love. I don't want my bff to hurt his car.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> It was tough love. I don't want my bff to hurt his car.


Awww that's sweet 😘


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Baaad65, I sure Army means well, but the truth is a hard pill to swallow. Some cars and hobbies have a way of eating your lunch. I bought a super nice 07 ford powerstroke knowing full well I would have to save like my truck was going off to college someday lol. But somedays I wish it would give me and my wallet a break.
But I would not trade it for nothing, and a full bulletproof is in its future $$$$$. 
So, if that's what your feeling, I say go for it. Just be safe while you're doing it.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Well I couldn't wait any longer...I knew it was bad when chunks are dropping out of the cover drain. I'm certainly not an expert and feel free to diagnose but it doesn't appear that the pinion failed first. I'm thinking whatever forces put on the clutch pack broke a spider gear and once a piece fell into the ring and pinion it was like eating popcorn and biting down on a kernel and busting your molar apart. Solutions?? New posi unit and gears and hoping I can set that correctly, complete rear end of better quality and then have to shorten the shaft ?? And what brands of parts does everyone like? Enjoy the show but I'd skip the popcorn 😉


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Very common for the spider gears to go. It may just have had cheap gears or a poor/ amateur setup


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Looks like a recent build. My advice would be to get a good set of Richmond gears and a new Eaton. That 12 bolt should handle your car well. I can help you build it, if you do go that route.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I found a replacement...looks like your handy work Army.


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

Baaad65 said:


> Well I couldn't wait any longer...I knew it was bad when chunks are dropping out of the cover drain. I'm certainly not an expert and feel free to diagnose but it doesn't appear that the pinion failed first. I'm thinking whatever forces put on the clutch pack broke a spider gear and once a piece fell into the ring and pinion it was like eating popcorn and biting down on a kernel and busting your molar apart. Solutions?? New posi unit and gears and hoping I can set that correctly, complete rear end of better quality and then have to shorten the shaft ?? And what brands of parts does everyone like? Enjoy the show but I'd skip the popcorn 😉
> View attachment 158459
> View attachment 158460
> View attachment 158461
> ...


ouch,looks like it shattered a spider gear.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> Very common for the spider gears to go. It may just have had cheap gears or a poor/ amateur setup


So what causes those to go when you get traction?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

ponchonlefty said:


> ouch,looks like it shattered a spider gear.


Sure did.


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

Baaad65 said:


> So what causes those to go when you get traction?


i would guess the heat treat was not annealed properly. that will make them brittle. or lots of torque he he.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> Looks like a recent build. My advice would be to get a good set of Richmond gears and a new Eaton. That 12 bolt should handle your car well. I can help you build it, if you do go that route.


It was done in 2018 and why do you like Eaton I thought you had an Auburn? There's so many choices out there. I don't think it's going change anything drastically going to a 3.55 right, I think a calculator on the Strange site said 200 rpms more than the 3.42.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

ponchonlefty said:


> i would guess the heat treat was not annealed properly. that will make them brittle. or lots of torque he he.


Is 530 lbs a lot 😉 to much for a 12 ? Wonder which diff unit is best for what I have going on?


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

Baaad65 said:


> It was done in 2018 and why do you like Eaton I thought you had an Auburn? There's so many choices out there. I don't think it's going change anything drastically going to a 3.55 right, I think a calculator on the Strange site said 200 rpms more than the 3.42.


3.55 is a good gear. it really depends on what you want the car to do.


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

Baaad65 said:


> Is 530 lbs a lot 😉 to much for a 12 ? Wonder which diff unit is best for what I have going on?


with the way quality is going its hard to judge what is going to hold. this will be a learning experience of trial and error.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

ponchonlefty said:


> 3.55 is a good gear. it really depends on what you want the car to do.


The only thing is my first gear is a 2.99, I'm at 2450 @ 60mph now with 28" tires but I don't go long distances maybe 40 miles for shows, looked at the calculator again and it bumps the rpms up just over 100rpms @ 60mph...not bad.


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Baaad , drag racing equals $$$$$$$$$. When I ran my roadrunner i became broke quick


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

pontrc said:


> Baaad , drag racing equals $$$$$$$$$. When I ran my roadrunner i became broke quick


I believe it, I don’t want to keep doing it I was just curious what my set up was capable of and it was fun while it lasted...we'll see if I do it again because it ain't no fun fixing and paying for broken parts.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Hey Baaad. If you're chasing a particular time, I'd recommend reaching out to guys who have a lot of experience racing who have gone through the trial and error of changing gear ratio to increase (or decrease for bracket cars) times. Not sure if anyone is in contact with OMT but I bet he would know. Could be an on-line calculator somewhere that'll do it by the math. I just can't see such a small gear change having a huge impact. The 3.55 would be a great gear for the street, and is what I want to go with if/when I upgrade the rear on mine. I just can't see going from a 3.42 to a 3.55 shaving off close to a second. There's a reason that quarter mile cars will typically have ratios north of 4.11 with many past 5:1. In all honestly, the high/mid 12s was where I figured your car would run knowing what I know about your set up. That's around where I think mine would come in at with it's current rear gears if it had sticky tires and a posi.

The trial and error approach is much easier on a 9". It takes almost as much time to jack the car up as to swap out the center section. Other advantage to this approach is you can have 2 (or more) center sections. Swap out the race one for a streetable gear for cruising around and then swap in the race one for track time.

I hope it doesn't sound like I am raining on you parade. Honestly, exactly the opposite. As a younger guy, my dad talked me out of a bunch of different things that I wish I had done at the time. Some of those missed opportunities are gone for good and some I've just gotten too old for and outgrown. This sounds like it could be one of those things for you. I say do it so you don't think back on it later and regret passing. Maybe time to do a little jewelry shopping and helping with the dishes.


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## Sick467 (Oct 29, 2019)

@Baaad65 , I share your thoughts on hitting the track for the sense of what your car can do in a quarter mile. Personally, I'm too lazy, frugal, scared, busy, etc. to ever think I will take my car to a real track...maybe, but my car has got a few years left before restoration parole to know how I'll feel at that time.

Have you taken the car out for an open highway, casual, Zero to 60 mph test. This is not too risky in the way of legality given you choose a good time when the road is absence of other drivers and would give you an idea of it's performance compared to other fast cars. I know it's not the real thing and I'm not promoting street racing, but I have done this with a car of mine. I even went up to 100 mph to get that quick time. The down side is...common street pavement does not hook-up near as well as the track to yield the "best" time, but the good side is common street pavement does not hook-up near as well as the track and less likely to break things.

This whole thread has got me thinking that, since I am leaning towards a stroker build similar to yours, a more highway geared car might be in my future. This would reduce the tire spin/smoke show, yield a car that can hook better on the streets, lessen my thoughts on an expensive GV overdrive, and still be a fast / fun car. I'd think of it more of a 3/8th or 1/2 mile car.

The above is just my spin on the whole "take it to the track day" fun. I can appreciate your ambitions and hold your commitment in high regard.

Something else to think about it that it takes a fair amount of practice with one particular car set-up at the track to learn how to drive the car to see its potential. I have a friend who runs Pontiac bracket drags along with his son and daughter. They all have their own cars and he talks about how each one has different split second things they do in their cars that differ from one another. Even when one drives the other's car, they have different styles that produce similar results. These styles took many years of racing to develop. I'd be happy at the place you are in feeling like the car can break into the 12's...with some practice could get closer to the11's, but that's just scaredy-cat frugal me.

I look forward to your next set of runs and am rooting for you!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Jared said:


> Hey Baaad. If you're chasing a particular time, I'd recommend reaching out to guys who have a lot of experience racing who have gone through the trial and error of changing gear ratio to increase (or decrease for bracket cars) times. Not sure if anyone is in contact with OMT but I bet he would know. Could be an on-line calculator somewhere that'll do it by the math. I just can't see such a small gear change having a huge impact. The 3.55 would be a great gear for the street, and is what I want to go with if/when I upgrade the rear on mine. I just can't see going from a 3.42 to a 3.55 shaving off close to a second. There's a reason that quarter mile cars will typically have ratios north of 4.11 with many past 5:1. In all honestly, the high/mid 12s was where I figured your car would run knowing what I know about your set up. That's around where I think mine would come in at with it's current rear gears if it had sticky tires and a posi.
> 
> The trial and error approach is much easier on a 9". It takes almost as much time to jack the car up as to swap out the center section. Other advantage to this approach is you can have 2 (or more) center sections. Swap out the race one for a streetable gear for cruising around and then swap in the race one for track time.
> 
> I hope it doesn't sound like I am raining on you parade. Honestly, exactly the opposite. As a younger guy, my dad talked me out of a bunch of different things that I wish I had done at the time. Some of those missed opportunities are gone for good and some I've just gotten too old for and outgrown. This sounds like it could be one of those things for you. I say do it so you don't think back on it later and regret passing. Maybe time to do a little jewelry shopping and helping with the dishes.


Thanks for the encouragement, I know that small change isn't going to do much but I can't go any higher without an overdrive and that isn't happening for a long time if ever and I have a real good trans so I have to gear it to the street where it spends 99.9 % of the time. Bear was running about the same motor with a 3:50 gear but a different trans and he went 11.6 or. 8 I can't remember so I thought I would be close, I would be happy with an 11.99 and idk how far off I was on my third pass when the leaf tripped the timer but the guy next to me came from way behind and ran a 10.15 and I wasn't far behind, my 1000ft time was 10.6. I'm not that bent where I need to go every weekend and have different center sections for this, it is fun now that I got a taste of it but is to expensive. It just happened so I have to take a step back and not rush things like I always do, I have six months to get it back on the road, I have to go look for a night job now and some jewelry 👍


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Sick467 said:


> @Baaad65 , I share your thoughts on hitting the track for the sense of what your car can do in a quarter mile. Personally, I'm too lazy, frugal, scared, busy, etc. to ever think I will take my car to a real track...maybe, but my car has got a few years left before restoration parole to know how I'll feel at that time.
> 
> Have you taken the car out for an open highway, casual, Zero to 60 mph test. This is not too risky in the way of legality given you choose a good time when the road is absence of other drivers and would give you an idea of it's performance compared to other fast cars. I know it's not the real thing and I'm not promoting street racing, but I have done this with a car of mine. I even went up to 100 mph to get that quick time. The down side is...common street pavement does not hook-up near as well as the track to yield the "best" time, but the good side is common street pavement does not hook-up near as well as the track and less likely to break things.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the nice thoughts, if you want some good power on the crap gas we have absolutely stick with the stroker, mine ran like a top racing on 93 octane at 36° advance. It's fun on the street too I just went to the drag radials because the torque was spinning the tires a lot and there's quite a few obstacles on the country roads. I was surprised how I did at the starting line having never done it and crapping my pants, also the traction was good obviously because I thought I would be spinning and have to regroup the car and start over. I would recommend it to anyone if you take it easy (unlike I did) and don't have big sticky tires, if a manual trans just don't dump the clutch at to much rpm. The atmosphere was cool with people coming over and talking, the smell of rubber, seeing a '60 Impala that's 30' long with a parachute pull an 8.50 and hearing your name and car announced at the tower was so cool. I only wish I could have gave my son a ride and him take a video from inside to see my speed and rpms. I'll tell you I look slow as hell on the video but inside it goes by in a heartbeat and I hardly remember shifting you're so locked in, I'm just glad I didn't miss the 1 to 2 shift because on the street it's tough under wot so I must have been ripping that stick. I know the guys here that have done a lot of racing are bored listening to me but it was a first for me...we'll see if it's the last.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Baaad, my observations: First, the car is gorgeous. Totally a class act. Second, it sounds perfect. Third, your shifting skills are excellent...you are not lagging and are shifting super fast, like a guy who's done it before many times. That said, it is VERY tough to race a stick car, it is very hard on parts, and it is very hard to be consistent. That's why 95% of the people who drag race run automatics. They act as a 'cushion;' between the engine and rear end and allow for a lot of power and limited parts breakage. I blew up the rear in my '65 33 years ago and rebuilt it with stock gears (went from 3.55 to 3.36) and simply changed my driving style (stopped beating the crap out of the car).
All the advice here is excellent. The Ford 9" is the strongest and best choice for a rear end if you want to race the car. The supported pinion is the reason. Hands down the way to go. Your 2.99 first gear is super steep for a 3.50 ratio....If you want to keep the stick, I would run a 9" with a 3.25 ratio or even possibly a 3.00 with your torque monster. 
Great stuff, and, as others have said, addictive.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> I found a replacement...looks like your handy work Army.
> View attachment 158467


Ive sure done worse... However, that's not mine. I can tell because it doesnt have Farah Fawcett in a one-piece next to it.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> So what causes those to go when you get traction?


Back in the day, there was Richmond... now, there's a ton of Chinese stuff out there and the foreign castings simply dont give the attention to detail, that Richmond offers. The material itself is inferior and then the casting consistency isnt there either.

That being said, as I ve been saying repeatedly through this thread, "the weakest link" is going to go, and a spider is definitely a weak link. Even a great set of gears can bust a spider, if the right conditions are met... 

Next is setup... too tight and you'll have too much heat, to loose and you'll swreck the bearings and bang up the teeth until something explodes.

In this case, I would suspect what I already mentioned:

Poor quality parts
A bad setup
Or both
Also not sure what posi unit is in there, but it couldve went and then caused the spider to go.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> It was done in 2018 and why do you like Eaton I thought you had an Auburn? There's so many choices out there. I don't think it's going change anything drastically going to a 3.55 right, I think a calculator on the Strange site said 200 rpms more than the 3.42.


I LOVE my Auburn, but Eaton is generally considered to be a superior unit.

If you werent going to the track, I'd say Auburn... but if you're gonna pull double duty, then get an Eaton. Also, money is a factor... Auburn is much cheaper than Eaton, but if you were going to spend $5000 on a 9" rear, then another $200 for an Eaton, which will salvage the 12 bolt, is a deal.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> It was done in 2018


By who?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

As for "what ratio"

That's what I was saying yesterday. There is no need to guess... it's math.

Very simple... you run the 1/4 mile, and if you havnt run out of gear by the time that you're going through the trap, then you drop a ratio and run it again.

You should JUST be running out of gear at the end of the run. No point in doing anything else to the car until that's done, because it's the easiest, fastest way to get to the end of the track, in a hurry.

You only have a 3.00 gear ratio, you'd probably knock off more than a half second by running 4.10's... but then the car looses its streetability... and I promise not to go there anymore.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> Ive sure done worse... However, that's not mine. I can tell because it doesnt have Farah Fawcett in a one-piece next to it.


I still have that shirt


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

And FYI, while I do like Yukon and have used them in street applications, their gears arent even made by them. They're made by several foreign companies "to Yukon's standards".

Richmond, OTOH, is and has always been made in South Carolina.





About Us - Richmond Gear







www.richmondgear.com


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

And for the record... As @geeteeohguy mentioned: I never saw a set of spiders blow up in auto car... but Ive seen dozens of blown spiders in manuals


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

geeteeohguy said:


> Baaad, my observations: First, the car is gorgeous. Totally a class act. Second, it sounds perfect. Third, your shifting skills are excellent...you are not lagging and are shifting super fast, like a guy who's done it before many times. That said, it is VERY tough to race a stick car, it is very hard on parts, and it is very hard to be consistent. That's why 95% of the people who drag race run automatics. They act as a 'cushion;' between the engine and rear end and allow for a lot of power and limited parts breakage. I blew up the rear in my '65 33 years ago and rebuilt it with stock gears (went from 3.55 to 3.36) and simply changed my driving style (stopped beating the crap out of the car).
> All the advice here is excellent. The Ford 9" is the strongest and best choice for a rear end if you want to race the car. The supported pinion is the reason. Hands down the way to go. Your 2.99 first gear is super steep for a 3.50 ratio....If you want to keep the stick, I would run a 9" with a 3.25 ratio or even possibly a 3.00 with your torque monster.
> Great stuff, and, as others have said, addictive.


Thank you very much it means a lot from everyone here who have more experience and wisdom than me, I'm not going to make a career of racing so I don't think I need the more expensive 9" if I don't fix this one I was leaning towards the S60 Dana made by Strange for around 3K, it's plug and play with raised upper arm mounts to prevent wheel hop and I can choose my width which would help my tight tire clearances...yes I have to size the shaft, If I do decide to do one more race day I would hope that would hold up if I ease up on the launch. Fixing this one is going to probably run 1200.00 if nothing else is bent or broke then I still have C clip axels and an Eaton unit that already failed and that now is probably less quality like everything is. Plus I haven't set one up before so if I get it wrong doing this under the car it won't be good. As far as ratios whether I fix this one or do the Dana the choices are another 3.42, 3.55 or 3.73 which I know is too much and a 5 speed is a pipe dream right now so I thought I would try the 3.55, it's not going to be that much different.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> By who?


A guy in NC that did only differentials....I found on the internet (cue the eye roll) it was a pretty good deal and I talked to him a couple of times but of course he could have used inferior parts but it has held up for five years beating on it on the street but I know the track is way different. Probably a mistake but I was making a lot of knee jerk decisions trying to get it on the road in 6 months, it had been 30 yrs since I had a car and I was wetting my pants.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> A guy in NC that did only differentials....I found on the internet (cue the eye roll) it was a pretty good deal and I talked to him a couple of times but of course he could have used inferior parts but it has held up for five years beating on it on the street but I know the track is way different. Probably a mistake but I was making a lot of knee jerk decisions trying to get it on the road in 6 months, it had been 30 yrs since I had a car and I was wetting my pants.


Im by no means insinuating that it was built poorly or with inferior parts, but that's something any mechanic would suspect, given what happened... I dont know the builder so I cant say.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> Im by no means insinuating that it was built poorly or with inferior parts, but that's something any mechanic would suspect, given what happened... I dont know the builder so I cant say.


Very well could be or it could have been putting 530 lbs of torque to it in one second at 5000 rpms


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> Very well could be or it could have been putting 530 lbs of torque to it in one second at 5000 rpms


If the Family Feud asked:

"Name something that blows up your diff"

The number one answer would be "a Muncie".


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)




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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> it could have been putting 530 lbs of torque to it in one second at 5000 rpms


In my experience, the spiders go at RPM, not on launch. Of course, anything can go on launch, but in every case where I saw the spiders go, the wheels were spinning at high RPM, when it happened.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I have identified your posi unit and gears... Any guesses?

They are in fact Yukon. So, you probably couldve driven with that stuff on the street for the rest of your life, but on a sticky drag box with traction and torque, there's just no way they could hold up.

I suspect that the posi gave way, which sent the spiders into orbit, and then one of them took out the pinion.

This being said, I firmly believe (even more now), that a 12 bolt with an Eaton or Auburn, and Richmond gears, will easily stand up to your needs. And if you still intend to drop your times, get rid of the 3.00 gear ratio and go to 3.73's. It wont cost you anymore money to do that and your times will drop dramatically.

If you tried to speed up your car the same amount, with horsepower, it would require new heads, carb, cam, lifters, and intake... and then you'd still probably only drop a second, so $300 for gears is what you should do.

Then when you get your TKX, the car wont scream on the street.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> In my experience, the spiders go at RPM, not on launch. Of course, anything can go on launch, but in every case where I saw the spiders go, the wheels were spinning at high RPM, when it happened.


This one didn't make it off the line when I popped the clutch it was an instant bad sounding bang, my son has the video I'll try and get up.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> I have identified your posi unit and gears... Any guesses?
> 
> They are in fact Yukon. So, you probably couldve driven with that stuff on the street for the rest of your life, but on a sticky drag box with traction and torque, there's just no way they could hold up.
> 
> ...


Really? I'll have to dig up the receipt but I swear it was an Eaton, I have a 3.42 now so 3.55 would be the max because idk if I'll ever have a TKX and that thing would scream with a 3.73, first gear would be useless. I'm not building this for racing so maybe I'll try it again but whatever the best I get is it, guess I set my sights to high but I saw Bear do it with almost the same set up but I guess the different trannys make all the difference.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Every Eaton I ever saw had YELLOW springs, and every Yukon I ever saw has PURPLE springs. There are several other noticeable differences... as well as many sellers getting creative with their descriptions. Yukon copied Eatons design, so Ive seen a few Yukons advertised as Eatons, but when you read the fine print it's another story.

I thought a previous post listed you as having a 3.00 ratio, so that's good that you have 3.42.

But to the business at hand, your need/ requirement was to get your car below 12's, and you can/ will do that with a factory gear ratio of 3.73 or 4.10's, so your dilemma has been solved! DO IT!

Or just rebuild what you have and be confident in the knowledge that you "could have", if you wanted to.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> Really? I'll have to dig up the receipt but I swear it was an Eaton, I have a 3.42 now so 3.55 would be the max because idk if I'll ever have a TKX and that thing would scream with a 3.73, first gear would be useless. I'm not building this for racing so maybe I'll try it again but whatever the best I get is it, guess I set my sights to high but I saw Bear do it with almost the same set up but I guess the different trannys make all the difference.


Listen bro, throughout this thread, everyone has been giving me the stink-eye because I was trying to discourage you. The bottom line is, your my friend and I know how you feel about your car... we all do.

Your above post is you acknowledging what I've been saying all along. You didn't need to get below 12's to prove that you could... It's enough to know that with better gearing, you would have, and I'm envious of you for even having the balls to go do it at all. 

You put so much time, money, and effort into that car, I can't imagine how upset you'd be if you creased the roof or busted the frame.

A good example of this are Jeep Wranglers. These guys go buy them new off the lot, and then throw 37"x15" tires on them, with the stock Dana 30, and then hit the road for a life of joy. If ANY ONE of them ever took their truck off road, it wouldnt last a minute! You can't take a 75lb wheel and tire combo and replace it with a 150lb combo, without beefing up everything else. I put 510's in my Wrangler and I only ran 35"s.

Your car is a perfect blend of form and function. There's nothing wrong with pushing your limits, but don't beat yourself up over it when the inevitable occurs.

BTW, you can also get a set of 14" rims with some drag tires for the back of the car. If you drop your rear tire height from 28" to 24"-26", you'll do a very good job of lowering your ratio, without ever touching the gears. 

SO! A car with 28" tires will have traveled an additional 132 feet, in a 1/4 mile, than a car with 25" tires! 

Think of this like a bicycle, lets say you want to travel 3 feet, and when you do that in 3rd gear, the pedals/ crank rotate one time. Now you drop to 1st gear, and you still only travel 3 feet, but this time the pedals/ crank rotate two times. This enables you to go up hill or through sand, because your using more power to move the same distance.

Shorter tires will do the same thing. They'll allow your engines power to move the car, instead of relying more upon inertia.

One time I arrested a Taxi cab driver because his car came with 18" wheels and that's what his meter was calibrated to. He then put 15 wheels on it. This meant that his car traveled 16 miles a week less than his meter indicated.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I haven't minded your opinion or anyone elses at all I welcome them and knew I was risking a breakage especially going balls out the first time doing this instead of easing into it but that's me and I always think I can be good at something the first time trying it which is another character flaw. Like I said I thought "it sure feels fast on the street and I put all this big hp stuff that it's got to be faster than 12 seconds" but reality is a different story. Also this goes in the column of "live and learn" when you use an unknown builder without a build sheet you don't know what you're getting and this proves it, unlike my motor which was a Butler and I had a build sheet and verified the build on the phone. I didn't think about the tire swap which makes sense and I have been thinking of getting some street tires then saving these for if I raced again but maybe I'll re think this, I went 28" just to keep the revs down and drag radials because after the motor swap I couldn't keep it straight when I nailed the throttle. And if I go with the 3.55's then some day I do get a TKX I'll have a nice highway cruiser with that .68 fifth gear. So I'll do some pricing and pros n cons on fixing or replacing but if the repair goes up to half or 2/3 of a new rear then I don't know if it makes sense, what do you think of a Detroit Locker diff? Also hopefully repairing it isn't beyond my skill set which is moderate at best. I know I need to buy an inch pound torque wrench and probably a ring and pinion kit with bearings because of the shrapnel that went around in the case, idk if I'll need new carrier bearings or axel bearings and if an axel is twisted then I would lean towards a whole rear. Summit has the Strange S60 Dana for 2699.00 but that's with a street posi so there's going to be add on's but it does have raised upper arm mounts which I like and I would be more confident with that set up than the one I repaired so I'll get working on it and thanks again so much for the help and to everyone else also.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> after the motor swap I couldn't keep it straight when I nailed the throttle


In my world, that's the best part!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> what do you think of a Detroit Locker diff? Also hopefully repairing it isn't beyond my skill set which is moderate at best. I know I need to buy an inch pound torque wrench and probably a ring and pinion kit with bearings because of the shrapnel that went around in the case, idk if I'll need new carrier bearings or axel bearings and if an axel is twisted then I would lean towards a whole rear. Summit has the Strange S60 Dana for 2699.00 but that's with a street posi so there's going to be add on's but it does have raised upper arm mounts which I like and I would be more confident with that set up than the one I repaired so I'll get working on it and thanks again so much for the help and to everyone else also.


That's all preference. I would personally get a new posi, gears, and install kit. Dont reuse any bearings. Installation can be very challenging... and you're going to likely hit the $1200 mark for repair parts, so $3000 for a complete unit might be a better bet for you... especially since you're going to replace upper and lower arms soon.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

A lot of guys are running the GM 8.5 ten bolt rear. Stronger than the old 12 bolt and cheaper and more common.
About lockers on the street: bad idea. I have driven them and I have one in a 4x4 I own. And it caused me to wreck in the rain. You have to push in the clutch and coast around corners or else it will slide-hammer and kick your rear end around. Off road it's great (except side hills and then you crash down the cliff) on the street, it is brutal. On the track only, a great upgrade that can get you into the rail in a split second.
IMO, your car is much too nice to convert into a race car. You should upgrade the rear with a 9" or 8.5" and run it or get another car to cut up for the track and keep your clean, green '65 in one piece for enjoyment on the street. JMHO....


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

geeteeohguy said:


> A lot of guys are running the GM 8.5 ten bolt rear. Stronger than the old 12 bolt and cheaper and more common.
> About lockers on the street: bad idea. I have driven them and I have one in a 4x4 I own. And it caused me to wreck in the rain. You have to push in the clutch and coast around corners or else it will slide-hammer and kick your rear end around. Off road it's great (except side hills and then you crash down the cliff) on the street, it is brutal. On the track only, a great upgrade that can get you into the rail in a split second.
> IMO, your car is much too nice to convert into a race car. You should upgrade the rear with a 9" or 8.5" and run it or get another car to cut up for the track and keep your clean, green '65 in one piece for enjoyment on the street. JMHO....


Good to know, the other option for a diff unit in the Dana is a Helical Gear unit. Well it's not going to get raced much at all and I can hardly afford this one much less a race car too. So I'm trying to decide if I fix this one or by a complete unit....and thanks for the compliment


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

geeteeohguy said:


> IMO, your car is much too nice to convert into a race car. You should upgrade the rear with a 9" or 8.5" and run it or *get another car to cut up for the track* and keep your clean, green '65 in one piece for enjoyment on the street. JMHO....


I know where he can get a ratty Mustang. Great deal for a friend.

Of course, we may not be friends anymore after he took stock of the deal.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

@Baaad65 I think there are a bunch of guys on here that were stoked you did what you did. I'm sure I don't just speak for myself here. I can't imagine anyone on here that's built up one of these cars with a high hp engine that doesn't wonder what it would do at the track. At the same time not quite being able to talk themselves into doing it. One of the two car shows I went to this year was at my local short track (Seekonk Speedway in MA for anyone who's interested). It was the tracks opening event for this season. I arrived 30 minutes after the gates opened and my car wasn't entered for judging because they ran out of forms. A way bigger turnout than expected. I didn't care because I was just there get the car out. They ended the show with awards and what they called a 100 ft drag. You could take any car on the track to basically burn the tires up the front straight. My daughter tried to talk me into it but I wasn't having it. I gave the excuse that I only had 300 miles on the new engine and it wasn't dialed in yet, yadda, yadda, yadda. In reality, it was a no guts not glory moment. All I could picture was either a loud bang or losing it and hitting a concrete wall. I tip my hat to you my friend for pulling the trigger and doing it. I do feel bad that you broke but it really could have been way worse. A blown rear isn't so bad.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I guess my position is backwards....I've owned my '65 for 40 years, and the first 5-ten years, I broke a lot of parts racing the car. It was also a commuter and daily driver, so I seemed to spend all my spare time fixing broken parts so I could get to work on Monday. Since I blew the rear end in 1990 and had it rebuilt, I've driven the car with the respect it's earned at this point. I'll go through the gears with all the carbs wide open and have fun, but my days of doing long smokey burnouts are over. But I understand the enthusiasm of newer owners who have recent builds and want to use them to their potential. I just got most of it out of my system 30 years ago when parts were a LOT cheaper and still in junkyards. When I started out, I could blow up a Muncie or a rear end and go down to the wrecking yard and pick up replacements for $100 apiece. Not anymore!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Jared said:


> @Baaad65 I think there are a bunch of guys on here that were stoked you did what you did. I'm sure I don't just speak for myself here. I can't imagine anyone on here that's built up one of these cars with a high hp engine that doesn't wonder what it would do at the track. At the same time not quite being able to talk themselves into doing it. One of the two car shows I went to this year was at my local short track (Seekonk Speedway in MA for anyone who's interested). It was the tracks opening event for this season. I arrived 30 minutes after the gates opened and my car wasn't entered for judging because they ran out of forms. A way bigger turnout than expected. I didn't care because I was just there get the car out. They ended the show with awards and what they called a 100 ft drag. You could take any car on the track to basically burn the tires up the front straight. My daughter tried to talk me into it but I wasn't having it. I gave the excuse that I only had 300 miles on the new engine and it wasn't dialed in yet, yadda, yadda, yadda. In reality, it was a no guts not glory moment. All I could picture was either a loud bang or losing it and hitting a concrete wall. I tip my hat to you my friend for pulling the trigger and doing it. I do feel bad that you broke but it really could have been way worse. A blown rear isn't so bad.


Thanks I really appreciate it, for me I guess I just wanted to try out this expensive high performance stuff I went to the trouble of buying and installing I mean why buy it then, for looks and bragging at the shows? It reminds me of going to the World of Wheels and seeing the best money can buy and then the car doesn't even see the street, I could have just chromed out a stock 326, painted my peg leg rear end real nice...they call them performance parts for a reason. You should have done the drags, a hundred feet is nothing and you have a rev limiter...let the daughter do it next time  Trust me all those fears were going through my head for weeks and I was sweating bullets with the driest mouth as I was waiting for them to stage me. Well one of my fears came true and like you said if something had to go this was probably the best part to go, and now investigating this that rear end was the unknown and was...the weakest link. Just talked to a tech at Strange and he thinks it might cost around 1800.00 to repair mine and it could happen again because where the pinion mounts moves under such force in a stock 12 bolt, he thinks the pinion broke the tooth first or both that and the spiders at the same time. They can't get the standard diff unit so for 175.00 I have to get the Trutrac diff which has no clutch packs and no spider gears and it would be a 3.54 gear. Plus like I mentioned the upper arm mounts are raised which is a plus, He said he's running a 1000hp in his car through this rear. So it's sounding like a better option, now I just need one of those sales at Summit and I have a 50.00 gift card


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Baaad65 said:


> Thanks I really appreciate it, for me I guess I just wanted to try out this expensive high performance stuff I went to the trouble of buying and installing I mean why buy it then, for looks and bragging at the shows? It reminds me of going to the World of Wheels and seeing the best money can buy and then the car doesn't even see the street, I could have just chromed out a stock 326, painted my peg leg rear end real nice...they call them performance parts for a reason. You should have done the drags, a hundred feet is nothing and you have a rev limiter...let the daughter do it next time  Trust me all those fears were going through my head for weeks and I was sweating bullets with the driest mouth as I was waiting for them to stage me. Well one of my fears came true and like you said if something had to go this was probably the best part to go, and now investigating this that rear end was the unknown and was...the weakest link. Just talked to a tech at Strange and he thinks it might cost around 1800.00 to repair mine and it could happen again because where the pinion mounts moves under such force in a stock 12 bolt, he thinks the pinion broke the tooth first or both that and the spiders at the same time. They can't get the standard diff unit so for 175.00 I have to get the Trutrac diff which has no clutch packs and no spider gears and it would be a 3.54 gear. Plus like I mentioned the upper arm mounts are raised which is a plus, He said he's running a 1000hp in his car through this rear. So it's sounding like a better option, now I just need one of those sales at Summit and I have a 50.00 gift card


I'd maybe consider it next year now that I have a little more faith in the build I did. Keep in mind, other than the rotating assembly, I assembled the engine myself, and it was my first one. After running it for a full year, and putting 1500 miles on it, I'm pretty sure it was all done right. I'm running a factory style HEI dizzy, so no rev limiter on mine.


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## 66COUPE (Jul 23, 2021)

Jared said:


> I'd maybe consider it next year now that I have a little more faith in the build I did. Keep in mind, other than the rotating assembly, I assembled the engine myself, and it was my first one. After running it for a full year, and putting 1500 miles on it, I'm pretty sure it was all done right. I'm running a factory style HEI dizzy, so no rev limiter on mine.


I would just have to agree with almost everything everyone has said about racing, race it and it will break, had a good friend back in the day had money and in 78-79 bought a mint stock 69 Z/28 from the original owner, was the fastest car around town, that thing screamed like nothing we had ever seen, blew all our doors off hands down, then threw a rod at around 9 grand rpm and the rebuild to go faster had begun. Never achieved close to stock performance from that day and thousands of dollars trying to get it back. Sometimes factory just gets it right.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> I guess I just wanted to try out this expensive high performance stuff I went to the trouble of buying and installing I mean why buy it then, for looks and bragging at the shows? It reminds me of going to the World of Wheels and seeing the best money can buy and then the car doesn't even see the street


You're really describing 75% of the hotrod world, now. How many vettes do you see on the road? How many have you ever seen driving fast on the street?

The whole damn industry is built on walking soft and carrying a big stick.

Take the stock 67 iron intake, everyone threw them away so that they could have an Edelbrock, which didnt perform as well. Same as ditching a Qjet for a Holley.

What Im saying is, it's okay to look tough without having to prove it.


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## 66COUPE (Jul 23, 2021)

armyadarkness said:


> You're really describing 75% of the hotrod world, now. How many vettes do you see on the road? How many have you ever seen driving fast on the street?
> 
> The whole damn industry is built on walking soft and carrying a big stick.
> 
> ...


And there’s nothing more intimidating than a 66-67 stance from the front, there’s no other car I can tell means trouble from way far away.


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## 66COUPE (Jul 23, 2021)

66COUPE said:


> And there’s nothing more intimidating than a 66-67 stance from the front, there’s no other car I can tell means trouble from way far away.


No knock to 65 gets all the props too. !!


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## 66COUPE (Jul 23, 2021)

66COUPE said:


> No knock to 65 gets all the props too. !!


I love all GTO’s. except maybe those …. No, I should be more inclusive to the newer ones since I’ve never drove one. Hard to break those old stereotypes I guess.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Jared said:


> I'd maybe consider it next year now that I have a little more faith in the build I did. Keep in mind, other than the rotating assembly, I assembled the engine myself, and it was my first one. After running it for a full year, and putting 1500 miles on it, I'm pretty sure it was all done right. I'm running a factory style HEI dizzy, so no rev limiter on mine.


I get that, I wouldn't have raced without one...well it sounds like you did a good job. That's part of my dilemma as I have only set up one diff in the 80's and I'm sure it wasn't spot on, I put a 3.73 in a 10 bolt with a ring gear spacer, not an ideal set up to say the least. All I was concerned about was getting the marks in the grease close to the picture in the Chilton manual so that's why I'm not confident in setting up my new diff. But I was young and a little dumber so we just threw stuff at the wall and hope it stuck 😉


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## gtojoe68 (Jan 4, 2019)

Army and Baaad65: this completely answers why I've never even taken my car to the track. There are so many things against me there: It's a convertible, MT, numbers matching car. The motor was SPECIFICALLY only built to a RamAir 2 spec ( or therabouts - 377hp at 5000 ) so I wouldn't break everything. The rear end is 10bolt BOP with Yukon Gear third member - 3.90 gear. Trans is an AutoGear (muncie clone) with custom ratios to give 4th gear a .8 to 1 drive ratio. Ghetto OD. I'm fully aware that any V-8 hot rod out there past say 2005 can probably blow my doors off - especially the traction control cars. I won't even start with the 707hp Challengers..... I put a solid Moog stock suspension on her front, front disc brakes and UMI replacement upper and lower in rear. 

All that said, it is a great cruiser, whole fam can ride in her comfortably. - When I'm alone and dump the clutch at a light - row thru the gears? It's just a freaking gas. Every time. Makes a racket, chirps every shift. Pure joy. Will all those other buggers be faster? Yeah but they won't look or sound nearly as cool as I do.  Do I want to go to the track like I did in high school with my first two GTOs? you bet. I didn't know s**t in HS. BUT - Army is right. I'd start breaking all kinds of crap. My buddy has over $100k in a 70' Buick Skylark drag car. does 11.5 all day without the nitrous. who drives their car more? Yup. me. His is just a handful on the street

Anyway - I'm rambling, trying to convince myself the mild build of my motor was the right choice. cause everyone wants a 500hp/65o Torque monster in their GTO. LOL

my best dyno. I think it needs more tuning and there is more in there. but that's a different story


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

66COUPE said:


> 65 gets all the props


True... Girls need GTO's too!


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## 66COUPE (Jul 23, 2021)

armyadarkness said:


> True... Girls need GTO's too!


Come and get you some !!


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

I am in the "not that I would, just to know that I could' column, But I envy those that do.
I am just glad mine runs and drives and looks as good as it does. And I feel for those just trying to complete their builds in these trying times.


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## Sick467 (Oct 29, 2019)

RMTZ67 said:


> I am in the "not that I would, just to know that I could' column, But I envy those that do.
> I am just glad mine runs and drives and looks as good as it does. And I feel for those just trying to complete their builds in these trying times.


 Heck, I'm in the first year plus of my build and trying to balance budget and lead-times is more stress than the actual work. I love the time in the shop, but the worry that the project will get delayed by a year due to parts delivery is worse than it will cost more than wi would have 5 years ago is keeping me up at night. I'm buying parts years before I need them!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> I get that, I wouldn't have raced without one...well it sounds like you did a good job. That's part of my dilemma as I have only set up one diff in the 80's and I'm sure it wasn't spot on, I put a 3.73 in a 10 bolt with a ring gear spacer, not an ideal set up to say the least. All I was concerned about was getting the marks in the grease close to the picture in the Chilton manual so that's why I'm not confident in setting up my new diff. But I was young and a little dumber so we just threw stuff at the wall and hope it stuck 😉


I think you have to take your car to the track, if possible, at least 1 time to see what the car will do on a timed track versus the street race where whomever hits the finish line first wins - many of us have done/do this with our cars.

Here are a few things to think about. You stated your engine has 530 Lb Ft of TQ. That is at the flywheel, but how much of that is going through the trans and rear-end? Your transmission gears are one set of mulitpliers. So an M-20 gearing is 2.52, 1.88, 1.46, 1.0. OK, you are in first gear and you wind it up and dump the clutch. How much TQ is going to the rear-end?

530 TQ x 2.52 = 1,335.6 Lb Ft of TQ. So can the rear end handle 1,335 Lb Ft of TQ? Can the transmission handle that kind of twisting? 

The rear gears also multiply torque. Your engine puts out 530 lb-ft of torque to a 3.42 rear axle, you can figure out how much torque the axle sends to the rear wheels by simply multiplying the engine torque with the rear axle ratio. 530 x 3.42 = 1,812.6 so the torque output will be 1,812 Lb Ft. This si also what you would get in 4th gear as the transmission multiplier is 1.0. However, in 1st gear, and 1,335 Lb Ft of TQ x 3.42 = 4,565 Lb Ft of TQ divided by 2 (posi sends 1/2 of the total TQ to each wheel). You have 2,282 Lb Ft of TQ going through to each tire.

Now add some sticky tires and good traction versus skinny not so sticky tires, and you have all that TQ trying to accelerate and move 3,600 lbs from a dead stop the instant you dump the clutch. If you have ANY weak spot in the drivetrain, you are going to find it. Now if you had skinny slippery tires, all the TQ would over power the tires and smoke them, so the TQ isn't going to grab the road with full force and you car advances forward as if your were slipping the clutch until the forward speed of the car catches up at a point where the tires can bite and propel the car forward rather than spin tires.

Sooooo, if you slap in a really good rear end, my guess is that the M-20 will be the next weak link. So now you install the TKX, the 9", and these components hold up, but then the stresses/TQ get transmitted to the suspension, frame and the car's body - and you may find the next weak link in the build - but I know you beefed up the suspension and have the upper/lower control arm supports, so you should be OK for the most part.

Rather than an all out banzai high RPM clutch drop, you can find an RPM where you can let out the clutch and the tires grab and NOT stall out the engine and then nail the gas and go from there. I used to do this with one of my cars to prevent bad wheel hop and it worked very well with a 3.08 posi and M-50 tires. I don't think I lost much time off the line this way and the car would just pick up and go - and this was street racing.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> I think you have to take your car to the track, if possible, at least 1 time to see what the car will do on a timed track versus the street race where whomever hits the finish line first wins - many of us have done/do this with our cars.
> 
> Here are a few things to think about. You stated your engine has 530 Lb Ft of TQ. That is at the flywheel, but how much of that is going through the trans and rear-end? Your transmission gears are one set of mulitpliers. So an M-20 gearing is 2.52, 1.88, 1.46, 1.0. OK, you are in first gear and you wind it up and dump the clutch. How much TQ is going to the rear-end?
> 
> ...


I've been waiting to see what your comments would be PJ and thanks for not saying how dumb I was to do this 😉 To make your calculations even worse for me is my first gear is 2.99, I realized after I broke down I should have been a little easier on the clutch but it was my first time and we all know how the first time goes...to fast and un bridaled. I thought I had the drive train for this but guess not and I would like to go again that's why I'm hesitant to try and rebuild a 56 yr old rear and just bite the bullet for the Dana S60. Hopefully my suspension holds up then and I do have torque lock motor mounts, Spohn adjustable upper arms going in this winter and will look into the cross member. I think a full frame car like this and being a post should be ok 🙏🤞


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Baaad65 said:


> I get that, I wouldn't have raced without one...well it sounds like you did a good job. That's part of my dilemma as I have only set up one diff in the 80's and I'm sure it wasn't spot on, I put a 3.73 in a 10 bolt with a ring gear spacer, not an ideal set up to say the least. All I was concerned about was getting the marks in the grease close to the picture in the Chilton manual so that's why I'm not confident in setting up my new diff. But I was young and a little dumber so we just threw stuff at the wall and hope it stuck 😉


I think the more mature you would take more care than the young reckless you did all those years ago. As @geeteeohguy said a while back, the investment is much higher now. These cars are no longer just cheap used cars but cost real coin to get into, and the parts are not cheap either.  Not to mention the time involved. Mine was off the road for 16 months when the engine grenaded. This adds to the level of care, and the risk, most are willing to take with them. I know how much I have sunk into my car and I suspect many on here have much, much more. I'll be honest, if something happened to mine and I had to start over, I don't think I could justify the cost to get into another car just like mine. It gives me pause at this point doing something too risky with it. That being said, I do still bring it to Home Depot to pick up bags of charcoal and what not. I just like seeing the look on folks' face when I load the truck up with bags of charcoal. The day I feel that it is too nice/valuable to drive is the day I send it down the line to someone else who wants to stare at it and wipe it with a diaper.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

66COUPE said:


> I love all GTO’s. except maybe those …. No, I should be more inclusive to the newer ones since I’ve never drove one. Hard to break those old stereotypes I guess.


I suspect you'd like the new one. I have an appreciation for all performance cars, past and present. My kid is into the import factory rockets and they are a blast. He had a Fiesta ST (wrecked last winter) that felt like an old school turbo car from the 80s. It was nothing, nothing, nothing, holy hell hold onto you hat fast. His current car is a Hyundai Elantra GT Sport which is faster than the Fiesta but much more civilized. What I liked most about the new GTO, and the G8 that followed it, is they just looked like normal cars. Anyone not in the know would have no clue what was lurking under the hood.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Now add some sticky tires and good traction versus skinny not so sticky tires, and you have all that TQ trying to accelerate and move 3,600 lbs from a dead stop the instant you dump the clutch. If you have ANY weak spot in the drivetrain, you are going to find it. Now if you had skinny slippery tires, all the TQ would over power the tires and smoke them, so the TQ isn't going to grab the road with full force and you car advances forward as if your were slipping the clutch until the forward speed of the car catches up at a point where the tires can bite and propel the car forward rather than spin tires.
> 
> Sooooo, if you slap in a really good rear end, my guess is that the M-20 will be the next weak link. So now you install the TKX, the 9", and these components hold up, but then the stresses/TQ get transmitted to the suspension, frame and the car's body - and you may find the next weak link in the build - but I know you beefed up the suspension and have the upper/lower control arm supports, so you should be OK for the most part.


I've been waiting a week for you to come in and say this. Where the Hell were you!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> I've been waiting a week for you to come in and say this. Where the Hell were you!


Me 2


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

66COUPE said:


> I would just have to agree with almost everything everyone has said about racing, race it and it will break, had a good friend back in the day had money and in 78-79 bought a mint stock 69 Z/28 from the original owner, was the fastest car around town, that thing screamed like nothing we had ever seen, blew all our doors off hands down, then threw a rod at around 9 grand rpm and the rebuild to go faster had begun. Never achieved close to stock performance from that day and thousands of dollars trying to get it back. Sometimes factory just gets it right.


In 1980 my best friend bought a 90,000 mile '67 GTO from the original lady owner (was her HS graduation present). Stock 400, Cameo Ivory, gold interior, AC, 2.93 posi, TH400.
Hubcaps. We raced it against a friend's '69SS 396 375 HP that had over $5,000 in engine and trans mods. Blew it's doors off. Then raced a '66 427 Corvette on the highway and left it in the dust. Basically won every race except with a '68 Shelby GT500 and a 440 six pack SuperBird. The GTO was bone stock and ran harder than our worn out, beat up, modified, and 'upgraded' GTO's at the time. Until he blew it up. After that, it was just another patched-together car. 
Currently have a friend who has a 61,000 mile '69 GTO base car that is unmolested and unmodified. Car looks like its a 3 year old car, not a 53 year old car. And runs like a raped ape, he just ran a series of mid 14's at Bakersfield, which is a real 1320 quarter mile. The same times and speeds as advertised at the time the car was new. 
The engineers were amazingly adept at 'getting it right'....which is one reason I'm always piping up when folks have issues with the 'upgrades' they've installed.


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## CDub67 (Jun 20, 2019)

Hey Baaad, no matter what you decide I'm glad for you to have had that experience. The video was great. Thanks.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

CDub67 said:


> Hey Baaad, no matter what you decide I'm glad for you to have had that experience. The video was great. Thanks.


Thanks, it was a blast until it broke but I'll try again next fall. My son has a couple more videos I'm waiting for.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I'm with Jim. The Muncie is the next 'fusible link' to go 'whoosh' in this saga. BTDT myself, more than once. Air Lift air bags with separate lines and tires that spin a bit are your friend. Tires are great fuses. Trannies, rear ends, and engines are expensive fuses.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> I've been waiting a week for you to come in and say this. Where the Hell were you!


LOL I have been reading/following every post and simply staying back to see where it was going and let other opinions be shared. I finally felt it was time to give my_* opinion*_ on it and throw out some numbers.

I am with *Baaad65* on this as I like a good race, or simply a good full-on take-off from a stop sign or light, just to feel that HP/Acceleration put me back in the seat - don't even need anyone to race against, its often just me going for the feeling, the sound, and slamming gears. Why build a big engine/HP if you are simply going to putter around and "getting on it" means a quick 2-second tromp on the go-pedal and let off once you hit 4,000 RPM's? If that was my goal, all Pontiac engines look the same on the outside so why not simply go for a smaller 350 CI with less HP/TQ going through the driveline and install a nice sounding cam/exhaust system? And then tell everyone it is a stroker 461, no one would ever know.

I have said this on a number of occasions to members that as you start building that "more than stock" engine that you want to follow that up with a transmission and rear-end that will handle the additional HP/TQ. Seems the "magic number" most want to shoot for is 500HP bragging rights and then you will have those who say, "that ain't much for the street, I have almost 600HP."

Keep in mind that many of these cars don't have their factory original engines, transmissions, or rear-ends - and the key word here is "factory" which generally means a factory engine was once in front of the trans/rear-end. So if the factory GTO HP/TQ ratings were enough to lunch a trans or rear-end, building for more HP/TQ is simply a guarantee to break factory parts.

So then you want to upgrade what is behind all that improved HP/TQ, but you can't simply put a beefed up trans or rear-end behind the engine* because* the pieces you selected were indeed heavy duty replacements. You want to know what exactly needs to go into the HD trans/rear-end to hold up to your bigger HP/TQ engine and HOW you plan to use/apply that extra HP/TQ.

Posi and bigger/wider tires are one of the things often selected that will increase the loaded stresses on the rear-end and transmission. Think of the wooden airplanes most of us had as kids and if it had a propeller, you had a rubber band you had to wind up to power/spin the propeller. So you wind it up. throw it in the air, and allow the prop to release the tension/energy (torque) on the rubber band and the airplane flew ahead (or crashed into something). BUT, soon you wanted more out of that plane and the more you wound that rubber band (creating more torque), the longer it flew...........until you wound it up so tight it surpassed the limits of the rubber and it snapped before you could release the propeller. Same with the tires - it holds back the torque as the propeller did until you released it. The minute you let out the clutch, it is the same as winding up that rubber band - lower RPM's winds the rubber band effect less before letting out the clutch and the tires can be eased into forward motion. High RPM's winds the rubber band effect more, and even beyond its limits, and when you let out the clutch, the tires are forced to propel the car weight forward in an instant, no easing into it, and the drive train breaks just as the rubber band did - so we needed a stronger rubber band BUT, then the stronger rubber band when wound up tightly split the balsa wood, so now we have to strengthen the balsa wood to handle the stronger rubber band......meaning now we have increased the strength of our driveline, but the frame/suspension has to be worked/modified to take advantage of the improved driveline and put the power to the ground without ripping the rear-end out of the frame, twisting the frame or body, buckling quarter panels and roofs, and going straight.

So in my opinion, you can build an engine as big as you like. You can race it. But if the rest of the driveline and underpinnings are not matched to the increased level of HP/TQ, you will be popping parts or doing damage to the car IF taking the race route and using sticky slicks. An automatic is more forgiving on the driveline, but if you want that big HP/TQ engine and gnarly sound, it needs a "blow-off valve" just like a pressure pot or things will explode - let that "blow-off" valve be your tires so the added HP/TQ will over power the tires before over powering the driveline/chassis and break things that'll cost more and put the car out of commission when you should be driving it. I'd rather smoke my tires than buy a transmission or rear-end if I don't have to or did not plan to.

Everything has balance. And sometimes to get that balance can be BIG $$$$$$.

LET'S GO RACING!!!!!!!!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> I've been waiting to see what your comments would be PJ and thanks for not saying how dumb I was to do this 😉 To make your calculations even worse for me is my first gear is 2.99, I realized after I broke down I should have been a little easier on the clutch but it was my first time and we all know how the first time goes...to fast and un bridaled. I thought I had the drive train for this but guess not and I would like to go again that's why I'm hesitant to try and rebuild a 56 yr old rear and just bite the bullet for the Dana S60. Hopefully my suspension holds up then and I do have torque lock motor mounts, Spohn adjustable upper arms going in this winter and will look into the cross member. I think a full frame car like this and being a post should be ok 🙏🤞


I have read the Dana S60 is a good choice and lighter than the 9".


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> I have read the Dana S60 is a good choice and lighter than the 9".


Yes it is but heavier than a 12-bolt but takes slightly less power to turn than a 9 and a nine is more money.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

geeteeohguy said:


> I'm with Jim. The Muncie is the next 'fusible link' to go 'whoosh' in this saga. BTDT myself, more than once. Air Lift air bags with separate lines and tires that spin a bit are your friend. Tires are great fuses. Trannies, rear ends, and engines are expensive fuses.


I hope not, it's an M23Z by Jody's Transmissions, Autogear case with all kinds of custom things done to reinforce it to handle this kind of power and torque and it cost more than a TKO in 2018...hope you didn't jinx it now 😉 I was happy that the McLeod super street pro clutch didn't slip and the Competition plus shifter worked great. I have a Strange 3" chrome molly shaft with forged chrome molly yokes,1350 joints so hopefully the rear was the weakest link and if I take care of that and ease up on the launch a little bit my package "should" be good to go 🤞


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## Jetzster (Jan 18, 2020)

Wasnt OMT’s approach…to just get two?😁
one to drive, one to race, then no worries lol😀


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Talking about OMT....hope he is doing ok.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

RMTZ67 said:


> Talking about OMT....hope he is doing ok.


I wish, both of his are outstanding! He pops up once in a while on the lounge forum, been tough sledding the last few years for him....I miss his insight.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> I hope not, it's an M23Z by Jody's Transmissions, Autogear case with all kinds of custom things done to reinforce it to handle this kind of power and torque and it cost more than a TKO in 2018...hope you didn't jinx it now 😉 I was happy that the McLeod super street pro clutch didn't slip and the Competition plus shifter worked great. I have a Strange 3" chrome molly shaft with forged chrome molly yokes,1350 joints so hopefully the rear was the weakest link and if I take care of that and ease up on the launch a little bit my package "should" be good to go 🤞


Read up on the trans and it appears to be a strong unit, However, from a post by Jody, note the last 3 words:

"There are no warantees from any manual transmission vendor for drag racing. That includes a G-Force, Jerico etc.

However, there are many Auto Gear M22 series transmissions out there surviving the 600HP level with abuse. Hopefully the M23 series will handle the 700HP level vehicles. Auto Gear does NOT put a rating on their transmissions due to too many vehicle variables; the wrong clutch; flywheel weight; wheel hop; and other items that shock the drivetrain."

Again, not to discourage at all, just be aware that drag racing, or rather a maximum launch effort, is where things will see the hardest strain/stress on the driveline and suspension and more so when the tires really grab like using slicks/drag radials at a sticky track.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

RMTZ67 said:


> Talking about OMT....hope he is doing ok.


I have reached out to him a few times and he seems to simply be busy


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> I am with *Baaad65* on this as I like a good race


I doubt that anyone in the world would ever consider me conservative, in any way... but it's likely most evident in my driving.

When my rev limiter was at 5200, I hit it several times a day... then after the new roller I bumped it up to 6000 and I still hit it regularly... In my world, Im one of the vast majority of people who own classic cars, but Im also one of the 2% who actually drive them, and I like to drive my car the way it was built to drive... I didnt put $4500 into the suspension and $5500 into the Tremec, on a street car, so that I could baby it.

But I also like to drive the car far away, and for hours on end. It's not uncommon for me to drive three states away... and it's always nice to make it back home!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> Read up on the trans and it appears to be a strong unit, However, from a post by Jody, note the last 3 words:
> 
> "There are no warantees from any manual transmission vendor for drag racing. That includes a G-Force, Jerico etc.
> 
> ...


Yup nothing is covered while drag racing including my Hagerty insurance, I just have to practice an easier launch.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

armyadarkness said:


> I have reached out to him a few times and he seems to simply be busy


I have as well (PM), hopefully that's the reason.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

The good run that was wiped out by a leaf, the other car ran a 10.1 Third pass


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## Jetzster (Jan 18, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> The good run that was wiped out by a leaf, the other car ran a 10.1 Third pass


Lika di-vine intervention goin on, nice run thou!😁


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

...and the one that ended the day.The diff failure


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Ok the last pictures.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

So in the next month or so I'm going to be ordering the new rear end and I have to choose a gear, there's only two choices for me in the Dana S60 3.55 and 3.73 and my thought was obviously the 3.55 and many here confirmed that with my 2.98 first gear 4 spd. But I started thinking about it and running the numbers and it's not going to make a huge difference in rpms I think the biggest jump at a cruising speed is 172 rpms @ 80mph, I had a 3.42 and it was fun in 1st and 2nd, 3rd and 4th were a little doggy and as everyone has figured out I don't put many miles on it each year which I wish would change but I'm still not going cross country with it and it has never been on an expressway or tollway, my farthest ride was probably 35 miles or so and I don't see a Power Tour in my future but I also can't predict the future. I want a fun car light to light and a fun cruiser and maybe a better 1/4 mile time but also don't want to have a useless first gear and burn up the motor but it is a stroker which helps....so my question is am I crazy, stupid, going to have a REALLY fun car now, or making to much out of choosing a 3.73 over a 3.55 ???? Chapter 2, choosing the 3.73 then would really push me to a TKX and then I would have the best of both worlds with no questions about over revving but that would be a couple years off and cost me some bling for the wife but I should be able to get a good buck for my tranny. Here's a chart I put together if it helps. 
So that's my story....fire away.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

I can only speak for 3:55 gears. I have the 400 w/ 9:6 compression, 068 cam, RamAir manifolds and 2.5 exhaust along with a 3 speed Dearborn Trans.
I also pretty much am a intown cruiser with short 35 mile cruise on occasion. I decided to keep my three speed and 3:55 because of the get up and go on all three gears. I have a feeling if I did do the 1/4 mile track that I would probably not get outta third to a 4th even if I had one. In town...I kinda like it that way. 3:55's with a upgrade Trans might not be a bad set up but not sure of your current or future needs, buti guess that's your question lol. I am sure someone with more drivetrain combo expertise will chime in.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

I have to ask what you consider to be doggy. I'm running a wide ratio Muncie in mine with 3.23 rear gears and it'll light up the tires at 40 mph in 3rd gear. Personally, I like some distance between gears but that may just be me.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Jared said:


> I have to ask what you consider to be doggy. I'm running a wide ratio Muncie in mine with 3.23 rear gears and it'll light up the tires at 40 mph in 3rd gear. Personally, I like some distance between gears but that may just be me.


My third gear is 1.46 so it doesn't light up the tires but it gets going decent at WOT but I can't remember what mph.


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

my opinion is 3.55 gear. pontiacs seem to like that gear.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I know it trivial but it would be a 3.54 not 3.55...about 8 rpms less at 65, just realized this.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

ponchonlefty said:


> my opinion is 3.55 gear. pontiacs seem to like that gear.


So why is that I'm curious and so what would your choice be if I had or would be getting a 5 spd to have a super fun driver because I'm not changing the rear anymore so I would suffer a little now for the better future.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> So why is that I'm curious and so what would your choice be if I had or would be getting a 5 spd to have a super fun driver because I'm not changing the rear anymore so I would suffer a little now for the better future.


If getting a 5-speed in the future, depends on your OD 5th gear. My TKO 600 is .64 - so 3.89 gears with a 29" tall tire is the ticket. Forget about the argument that 1st gear will be a waste - yep it will, but should be great when creeping along is stop/go show traffic and easier on getting the car rolling. Tire size should be added to the equation as it will change the rear gear depending if you go tall or short on tire height. Go 30-31" tall, you may want 4.10 gears. Go 26" tires and 3.73 may be better.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

RMTZ67 said:


> Talking about OMT....hope he is doing ok.





RMTZ67 said:


> Talking about OMT....hope he is doing ok.


PM'ed OMT in Oct. Said he is hanging in there, but that covid had threw him for a loop. He mentioned a severe loss of energy, but he is doing well. I also mentioned to him, to come join us sometime when he is feeling better. Just thought I would mention it, since I came across this post.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> If getting a 5-speed in the future, depends on your OD 5th gear. My TKO 600 is .64 - so 3.89 gears with a 29" tall tire is the ticket. Forget about the argument that 1st gear will be a waste - yep it will, but should be great when creeping along is stop/go show traffic and easier on getting the car rolling. Tire size should be added to the equation as it will change the rear gear depending if you go tall or short on tire height. Go 30-31" tall, you may want 4.10 gears. Go 26" tires and 3.73 may be better.


I'm sticking with 28" tires and thinking the 2.87 first gear and .68 fith gear, so the 3.73 would work good. The next gear available in the Dana is a 4.10, I don't think that's going to be a good choice.


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

Baaad65 said:


> So why is that I'm curious and so what would your choice be if I had or would be getting a 5 spd to have a super fun driver because I'm not changing the rear anymore so I would suffer a little now for the better future.


the 3.55 with 28 inch tire and 4 speed is a good combo. but if going 5 speed 3.73 may be close to the same. depends on what you like. it was just my opinion.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

RMTZ67 said:


> PM'ed OMT in Oct. Said he is hanging in there, but that covid had threw him for a loop. He mentioned a severe loss of energy, but he is doing well. I also mentioned to him, to come join us sometime when he is feeling better. Just thought I would mention it, since I came across this post.


I reach out to him periodically. He always answers, but not quickly, and it's usually brief. He really helped me out, back in the day.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> I'm sticking with 28" tires and thinking the 2.87 first gear and .68 fith gear, so the 3.73 would work good. The next gear available in the Dana is a 4.10, I don't think that's going to be a good choice.


The 4.10 would probably be too much even with the OD gear. The 3.73 would be my pick.

The Tremec calculator says TKX 1st gear, 2.87, 3.73 gears, 28" tire will give you 43 MPH @ 5,600 RPM's so 1st gear should be doable. Then on the highway, the OD/3.73 would be comfortable (2150 RPM @ 70 MPH) and you should be able to hit 183 MPH which is plenty enough to outrun the State Police Hemi Chargers which can see 160 MPH. 



https://www.tremec.com/calculadora.php


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> you should be able to hit 183 MPH which is plenty enough to outrun the State Police


I feel like it was only yesterday when he was using Crazy Glue to hold in his dipstick... They grow up so fast!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> I feel like it was only yesterday when he was using Crazy Glue to hold in his dipstick... They grow up so fast!



Ya, we are going to make a "man" out of him yet. Bet his wife would like to thank us both for raising him up.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> The 4.10 would probably be too much even with the OD gear. The 3.73 would be my pick.
> 
> The Tremec calculator says TKX 1st gear, 2.87, 3.73 gears, 28" tire will give you 43 MPH @ 5,600 RPM's so 1st gear should be doable. Then on the highway, the OD/3.73 would be comfortable (2150 RPM @ 70 MPH) and you should be able to hit 183 MPH which is plenty enough to outrun the State Police Hemi Chargers which can see 160 MPH.
> 
> ...


Well that sounds good, but until the 5 spd it's going to be a dump truck and no Power Tours, thanks.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> I feel like it was only yesterday when he was using Crazy Glue to hold in his dipstick... They grow up so fast!


No glue it was a spring, now it's a tiny stainless screw 😉


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> Ya, we are going to make a "man" out of him yet. Bet his wife would like to thank us both for raising him up.


Don't worry there's no problems there so far but you never know about tomorrow 🤣


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Ya, we are going to make a "man" out of him yet. Bet his wife would like to thank us both for raising him up.


In all fairness, I cant laugh too hard... it wasn't that long ago that I learned half this crap from you


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> In all fairness, I cant laugh too hard... it wasn't that long ago that I learned half this crap from you


Ya, well, I didn't want to go bragging, but since you brought it up................


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Ya, well, I didn't want to go bragging


I figured I only had a few seconds to beat you to it!

But don't be in such a hurry to take any credit... wait until we see if I was right!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

So getting back in my lane here I had another thought on the gear ratio, since I've found out I should be around 2000 rpms cruising at 70 mph with my cam I was thinking that most of the driving speed is 40-60 mph so here's a couple of scenarios with the 3.54 and 3.73. My question is am I going to just be using 4th gear and hardly get into 5th unless I'm doing 70 ? Maybe I'm missing something which wouldn't surprise me.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

So here's a better calculator that shows rpms through the gears, four with the 3.54 and four with the 3.73. Not much of a difference but the 3.73 still looks good and if I don’t use 5th until I'm really cruising 4th is still not over revving things. Sorry if I'm over thinking things but I want to get the best possible gear because I ain't changing it. Sorry they got out of order.























7


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> So here's a better calculator that shows rpms through the gears, four with the 3.54 and four with the 3.73. Not much of a difference but the 3.73 still looks good and if I don’t use 5th until I'm really cruising 4th is still not over revving things. Sorry if I'm over thinking things but I want to get the best possible gear because I ain't changing it. Sorry they got out of order.
> View attachment 159775
> 
> View attachment 159772
> ...


3.73's look like a better pick.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> 3.73's look like a better pick.


In your opinion why do they look better?


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

Baaad65 said:


> In your opinion why do they look better?


i think it is better to be on the cam with more rpm than it lugging. kinda like when an automatic needs a stall converter to keep the rpms where the cam is happy.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> In your opinion why do they look better?


I don't like the RPM numbers with the 3.54 at the lower speeds. Several seem to be at a point where the gear is either kinda high on the RPM or a bit too low and lugging. Top end, 70 MPH at 2150 is fine and not much more than the 3.54's. With the 3.54's at 70 MPH, anything lower and going up hills and you will be down shifting more and riding 4th gear at a higher RPM. 

Just my opinion. Bottom line is you have to decide. Your engine has a lot of torque, so you can pull the 3.54's at 70 or above. How often do you plan on cruising at 70 MPH and how far? Seems your aim is more towards performance and I think the 3.73's would be the better choice for you. the 3.54's around town might be a little sluggish and I don't think you will see OD very often and defeat the purpose of the OD.

I have the 3.89's figuring most of my driving will be cruising around town and locally. Don't really expect to be running up on the highway very much, but if I do, the OD will help and I can take advantage of it. I want acceleration on the street.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> I don't like the RPM numbers with the 3.54 at the lower speeds. Several seem to be at a point where the gear is either kinda high on the RPM or a bit too low and lugging. Top end, 70 MPH at 2150 is fine and not much more than the 3.54's. With the 3.54's at 70 MPH, anything lower and going up hills and you will be down shifting more and riding 4th gear at a higher RPM.
> 
> Just my opinion. Bottom line is you have to decide. Your engine has a lot of torque, so you can pull the 3.54's at 70 or above. How often do you plan on cruising at 70 MPH and how far? Seems your aim is more towards performance and I think the 3.73's would be the better choice for you. the 3.54's around town might be a little sluggish and I don't think you will see OD very often and defeat the purpose of the OD.
> 
> I have the 3.89's figuring most of my driving will be cruising around town and locally. Don't really expect to be running up on the highway very much, but if I do, the OD will help and I can take advantage of it. I want acceleration on the street.


That's what I was seeing too, glad I got everyone's opinion as I would have never guessed I would want a 3.73, funny that's what was in my '67 back in the day except my 19 year old dumb ass used a ring spacer to stuff a 3.73 into a 10 bolt...but I never had it fail even with a .30 over 428 and a tri power but then again I didn't have the tires I do now 😉


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

So the Strange Dana S60 rear end is ordered, 3.73 cogs and I broke down and ordered the drum brakes....I owe I owe it's off to work I go 😉


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

Baaad65 said:


> So the Strange Dana S60 rear end is ordered, 3.73 cogs and I broke down and ordered the drum brakes....I owe I owe it's off to work I go 😉


its just money right. once the fun starts that smile will make things more bearable.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> So the Strange Dana S60 rear end is ordered, 3.73 cogs and I broke down and ordered the drum brakes....I owe I owe it's off to work I go 😉


You will think you are a kid again. Wife won't see you from 9PM Friday night 'til 2AM as you will be cruising the "ave" running down rice burners, LS, and hemi cars. Do you have a savings plan for tires or stocks in a rubber company? Lawyer on speed dial? LOL


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

If anyone has a special order at Summit be sure and ask for Elain she's in charge and really went out of her way. First she said shipping was free even for the size and weight which I couldn't believe and that's why I was ready to pick it up at Strange, then she said I couldn't use PayPal for the 12 month free financing but I sweet talked into it. Then in the evening I realized I forgot to add gear lube to the order so I left her a voicemail and she calls me back at 9pm, says it's to hard to add it to the order so she orders 4 qts. from Summit at no charge and says Merry Christmas!!! The world needs more Elaine's 👍


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## Jetzster (Jan 18, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> If anyone has a special order at Summit be sure and ask for Elain she's in charge and really went out of her way. First she said shipping was free even for the size and weight which I couldn't believe and that's why I was ready to pick it up at Strange, then she said I couldn't use PayPal for the 12 month free financing but I sweet talked into it. Then in the evening I realized I forgot to add gear lube to the order so I left her a voicemail and she calls me back at 9pm, says it's to hard to add it to the order so she orders 4 qts. from Summit at no charge and says Merry Christmas!!! The world needs more Elaine's 👍


You musta showed her your breathers😉


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

Jetzster said:


> You musta showed her your breathers😉


what ever works right.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

ponchonlefty said:


> what ever works right.


Exactly 😉


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

.....it was just like Chris Farley convincing the waitress to fire up the deep fryer again for some wings in Tommy Boy  I did hate seeing that nice GTX vert destroyed


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Baaad65 said:


> If anyone has a special order at Summit be sure and ask for Elain she's in charge and really went out of her way. First she said shipping was free even for the size and weight which I couldn't believe and that's why I was ready to pick it up at Strange, then she said I couldn't use PayPal for the 12 month free financing but I sweet talked into it. Then in the evening I realized I forgot to add gear lube to the order so I left her a voicemail and she calls me back at 9pm, says it's to hard to add it to the order so she orders 4 qts. from Summit at no charge and says Merry Christmas!!! The world needs more Elaine's 👍


I've always gotten great service from Summit. Been ordering from them for many years.

Congratulations on the new rear. I've tossed around replacing mine but am hesitant. Right now the 1 wheel peal is probably keeping me from breaking a lot of other things.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Jared said:


> I've always gotten great service from Summit. Been ordering from them for many years.
> 
> Congratulations on the new rear. I've tossed around replacing mine but am hesitant. Right now the 1 wheel peal is probably keeping me from breaking a lot of other things.


Well I have a 12-bolt for sale complete with brakes and Strange axles, nice cover and upper arms, 1350 yoke, all it needs is a carrier and gears, and it's narrower than yours for some big meats...how about a road trip 😉 seriously though Idk what a good price is to start at for it.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Well I got the lube now I just need a rear end to use it on 😉


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Baaad65 said:


> Well I got the lube now I just need a rear end to use it on 😉
> View attachment 160645


ÒOOOKAY  any volunteers?


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