# Need Some Advise



## warmongoose66 (Jan 24, 2008)

Greetings, I need some advise from you all GTO owners, I guess what better place to ask for it, than here. I am working up a deal on a 06 GTO my only problem was deciding from the 6M or the 4A the 6M is black with red interior and the 4A is red with black interiors. But after reading all this information about the tires and the struts and the deaths, I am worry about it, because i do not want to throw away my hard earn money, and trust me its hard earned, specially my last 15 month after my second tour to Iraq. I did notice that the 4A has 18" wheels and the 6M has 17" both cars have 11000 miles on them but the red has the bubbles on the steering wheel, the Black one has zero defects that i can see. Please advise me.


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## 04YJ-GTO (Nov 7, 2007)

Go for the M6


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## raspantienator (Nov 20, 2007)

Personally I like the red GTO over the the black color wise, but the m6 would eventually get the nod over the A4 between the 2 goats.


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## warmongoose66 (Jan 24, 2008)

Thanks for the quick respond, but should I be worry about all the problems with the Tires and Struts


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

The strut rub issue, while real, is not universal and it's treatable. I had a 2005 Cyclone Gray M6 with the standard 17" wheels and 245 tires. I put about 33,000 miles on it without any strut rub. Oddly enough, I did have two massive tire failures with the OEM Goodrich KDWS tires. Both were on the rear at the time they failed although they had been rotated and so spent time at the front corners as well. Both were massive sidewall blowouts. But, it wasn't related to strut rub since both times it was the outer sidewall that failed. The tires were pretty well worn and both failures occurred above 140MPH. Both were inflated to 34psi when they failed. I attribute it to the abuse I gave those tires. Still, when it came time to replace them, I steered away from the KDWS's. One lesson from this. A heavy, high performance car like the GTO can place a lot of stress on normal wear components. Owners should regularly inspect tires and brakes and don't push them to the limits of wear.

I don't regret buying the M6. It was fun to drive. But the Tremec T56 is not the slickest manual transmission I've encountered. The 4L65E automatic on the other hand is a very nice automatic. Pick your favorite and enjoy.


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## warmongoose66 (Jan 24, 2008)

Thanks Wing_Nut for your honesty on this topic. I think I gear my self towards the A4 just because house hold 6 dose not drive M and with all the time I spend out on deployment the Car will just sit in my Garage, Some say is a good thing, I know what they mean.... Less miles and no curb rash. lol well lets se what happends this is not going to be easy.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

For every person who has had problems with the car, there are many who have not. 
Strut rub is a non issue on cars with 18" wheels. I have 17"ers and have had NO strut problems.

Bubbles on the steering wheel can be fixed.. Its a warranty issue. If you choose that car...... you want those caps replaced. 

M6 vs A4 is a personal choice. For your needs, only you can answer that question. 

How picky are you on detailing? Black shows dirt easy and swirl marks are common place if not detailed with care. That Black metallic is a sweet look in the sunlight though. Red interior will show more dirt than black.... Again.. detailing. Both colors have pluses and minuses. OTD price may be the biggest factor.

Make sure you know the factory warranty expiration dates. If they are close to expiring...(3yrs [from the 1st day the car was put in service] /36month) you may want to consider an extended warranty.

Incidentally: I DEEPLY appreciate your service to our country. I admire you for that. :cheers


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## NJG8GT (Nov 14, 2007)

*'06 torrid Red A4*

No problems here knock on wood!!!:cheers


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

warmongoose66 said:


> Greetings, I need some advise from you all GTO owners, I guess what better place to ask for it, than here. I am working up a deal on a 06 GTO my only problem was deciding from the 6M or the 4A the 6M is black with red interior and the 4A is red with black interiors. But after reading all this information about the tires and the struts and the deaths, I am worry about it, because i do not want to throw away my hard earn money, and trust me its hard earned, specially my last 15 month after my second tour to Iraq. I did notice that the 4A has 18" wheels and the 6M has 17" both cars have 11000 miles on them but the red has the bubbles on the steering wheel, the Black one has zero defects that i can see. Please advise me.


I have a 05 with A/4 trans, purchased new Feb 2005, now has 12,600miles one it, not one single problem


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## warmongoose66 (Jan 24, 2008)

Yes I belive the warranty left on both the Red and the Black are about the same. I just got an offer from a local dealer en Killeen TX, for a 2005 A4 Sylver with only 8300 miles for 22K, just when I was almost a the closing point now I have an 05 with 4000 miles less and 5K less but a tear older. I think that if I go A4 I can still eat some GT's and Rice Burners if it comes to the table right?


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Trying to understand you :confused....A 2005 silver A4 with 8300 miles for 22K which the other 05' is 400K less miles, and 5K less but a year older? 

I am going to assume you mean the 2006 A4 you are comparing to an 05' A4 which is 5K less at 22K? The 2006 is 27K?

If I understand your scenario.... You are choosing between the 2. 

If you are happy with an automatic... I'd go with the 05' at 22K and try to haggle them down a little more.

True the 06 is one model year newer with a few minor upgrades but the car didn't cost any more new than did the 05. So you would be paying 5K more just to get a 12 month newer car. The warranties are the same right? If I am correct in your question.... then IMO pocket the 5K. Now if the 2006 was 5k more new than was the 2005, I'd reconsider my thoughts. 

To answer your other question..... The A4 will be slightly faster than the M6 when you go after ricers and others that come to your table.


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## warmongoose66 (Jan 24, 2008)

OK here it is and sorry for any confusion. THe 06 has 12000 miles on it and a sticker price of 26K the 05 has 8300 miles on it with a sticker price of 22K. the 05 isa GM certified car the 06 is not a GM certified car it only has the remaining factory warranty on it and 3 year or 1000 miles from the used car dealer. The 05 has 3 factory tires BFG and one tires is another brand, do not know why. it has only been title once. the dealer said they will replace the tire to mach all others. I think I like the Silver better, but afraid of the Strud and tire problems down the road. it has 17 inch wheels and the 06 has 18 inch wheels. I have dicided for the A4 thas why i am only using this 2 in comparison. 05 A4 Sylver 8,300 miles 22K 1 year bumper to bumper warranty left and 5 years 100,000 power train Versus 06 A4 Red 12,000 miles 26K 2 years bumper to bumper and 3 years 100,000 power train


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

Personally, I'd go for the 05, pocket the $4,000, and look for a set of 18 inch factory wheels on ebay. Young kids die in these things daily. I'm sure in each case, someone ends up parting out the wreck. You'll have a car with fewer miles, more cash in your pocket, and the wheels you want. Once you get the 18's, sell the 17's on ebay and get most of your money back.

As GTO Judge mentioned, unlike the major mechanical upgrades between the 04-05 model years, the changes between the 05-06 were not that meaningful. Lights in the steering wheel buttons, tailights, they finally fixed the damned seat track motors, not much else.

Oh, and GTO Judge is right. The factory advertised the A4 at 4.6 0-60 and the M6 at 4.7 0-60. Now, consider the fact that the average person is not as skilled as they think they are with a clutch and gearshift lever plus the fact that the A4 will never miss a shift and the A4 is almost always going to be faster in a straight line. I assume that's the sort of unskilled racing you're salivating over. Now factor in a road course where the ability to downshift at will or hold a gear is a factor and, the M6 could be faster while the a4 could be downright annoying.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

If you opt for the lesser priced GTO that is certified. Check the date the car was put into service. That date will be the start day of the 3 year part of the warranty, the mileage falls under the 36K. If the date shows the car is within the factory warranty, you can if you choose to, take the 4K you are saving on the 06 and apply about 1900 or so to an extended bumper to bumper for an additional 3 years and about 70K miles. This will safeguard you and afford you some peace of mind. 

Also, get the Vin and do a search through Pontiac to see it there was any kind of warranty work done. Throughly check out which ever car you decide on before pulling the trigger.

The one tire different could be that the tire it replaced was destroyed somehow and the guy put on one. Check the tire rating. Z,W,R, ZR rated tires will give you the higher speed rating the other tires should have.


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## warmongoose66 (Jan 24, 2008)

O my GOD I have been thinking about this very hard all day. I think the 05 only has 3 months left on the BUMPER TO BUMPER and 5 years or 100,000 on the Power Train. I spoke with the sales person of the 06 and it still under warranty from GM it has left 13 moths, and they will give me 3 years or 100,000. Another things I notice is that the 05 has no sings of any wear on it the outside is inmaculate and so is the inside, the 06 has some show of scratches and little cosmetic things. I am a very picky person when it comes to my car, for example I have an 2005 RX8 GT Black on Black and it only has 7000 miles and it is like it never left the show room. Thanks all of you for the honesty and all of the good advise. I hope that tomorow I can post pictures of me an my GTO.


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## NJG8GT (Nov 14, 2007)

warmongoose66 said:


> Yes I belive the warranty left on both the Red and the Black are about the same. I just got an offer from a local dealer en Killeen TX, for a 2005 A4 Sylver with only 8300 miles for 22K, just when I was almost a the closing point now I have an 05 with 4000 miles less and 5K less but a tear older. I think that if I go A4 I can still eat some GT's and Rice Burners if it comes to the table right?


Oh, yea. The zero to sixty times are 4.5 for m6 and 4.6 for a4. If you get someone who cant drive stick right, you definately will blow them away.


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## Mike_V (Mar 10, 2006)

In 06, they reduced the price by 1000 dollars. Also, NJGoat, you got it reversed - the A4 is a tenth faster than the M6. If I remember, A4=4.6 M6=4.7. 

I'd go for the car that looks well cared for - ALWAYS.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Black over red is a stunning combo. Red over black is alright I suppose, but I've never been into red cars, doesn't do a thing for me.

I always get a little frustrated when I hear of a major decision purchase being possibly compromised simply because "my wife doesn't know how to drive a manual...".. 

Then teach her how ferchrisake... What does it take, all of 15 minutes to become "functional", and a few more practice sessions to be roadworthy?? Just get it done, there's no excuse to go through life and not learn how to drive a manual... Someday, somebody's LIFE may depend on it, i.e. if you're riding with somebody who's driving a stick-shift and they have a seizure or medical emergency, whadaya do, just sit there on the side of the road and watch them die because you never learned to use a clutch? 

Anywho... A car with a bubbling steering wheel indicates an un-garaged car. I'd go with the car that looked like it had been better cared for and stored overnight. You said the black car was flawless. There's alot to be learned by condition... Typically, an owner who is persnickety about the appearance and upkeep of the car, has been persnickety about ALL ASPECTS... 

Anyhow, the automatics do drive great, so it's purely up to which combo of colors and tranny wind your watch. But I would never switch gearboxes just to adapt to my wife... I'd adapt my wife to learn the new gearbox, there's nothing buy positive to be gained in that...


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

warmongoose66 said:


> Yes I belive the warranty left on both the Red and the Black are about the same. I just got an offer from a local dealer en Killeen TX, for a 2005 A4 Sylver with only 8300 miles for 22K, just when I was almost a the closing point now I have an 05 with 4000 miles less and 5K less but a tear older. I think that if I go A4 I can still eat some GT's and Rice Burners if it comes to the table right?


A4 and M6 are identical in performance. Some will tell you the A4 is faster, that's what it shows on Pontiacs website. Some will tell you that the best stock numbers for drivers at 1/4 mile tracks have come from M6's. What we are really talking about is a tenth of a second one way or another. 

There is one difference though that can't be avoided. You will get about the same city mileage out of the two, but the M6 is about 2 mpg better on the highway. 

Yes the A4 will eat all stock Mustang GT's and most lightly modded GT's. It will also dispatch stock Mach 1's, 350Z's, STI's, EVO's and Hemi Chargers. The good drivers races are 6.1L SRT8 Chryslers, 03/04 Cobras, C5 Corvettes and lightly modded F-Bodies among others. 

Don't let the transmission fool you, buy the one you like to drive the best, if that's an auto you aren't making a performance compromise.


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## raspantienator (Nov 20, 2007)

Colors are an individual thing- I like red for fast aggressive cars because it just fits.

I would insist on a manual though. I've had the turbo 400 which is basically industructable and very smooth with a B&M shifter. I always want to change that auto 400 for a manual but never got around to it. 

Now, with the GTO- When the pedal is floored, there is no substitute for riding out each gear until your ready. Subtle changes in climate and road conditions change each launch so in my book there is no sub for the M6.
Now, going into the twisties is an aditional case for the manual that will give you the added pleasure of controlling the car with downshifts.

How about finding the perfect RPM's when crusing past the Ricer conventions-easy to do with a manual.


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## warmongoose66 (Jan 24, 2008)

Ok just today the Black GTO is no longer the option because is SOLD yes some rich collage kid from Dallas paid cash for it. Ok now with that said. I just got the complete story on the 05 QSM GTO, it has bumper to bumper till Jul 2009 and a Certified GM Power Train till Jul 20011 and it only has 8798 miles on it. I requested a complete service history on it from GM and they gave me a print out that shows 2 oil changes 3000 miles and 6000 miles and a replacement of some kind of front bushing, I requested more information on the replacement bushing and I should get it by tomorrow. I did meet the previous owner he traded it in for an Avalanche, he did not remember at all the tire been different from the other 3, so that leads me to think that it was done at the dealer, maybe with another GTO, but the dealer said they will replace all 4 tires for the original BFG that came with the car. so I think that some time tomorrow I will be a proud owner of a legend and first true AMERICAN MUSCLE CAR 1964-1974 // 2004-2006.


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## NJG8GT (Nov 14, 2007)

Mike_V said:


> In 06, they reduced the price by 1000 dollars. Also, NJGoat, you got it reversed - the A4 is a tenth faster than the M6. If I remember, A4=4.6 M6=4.7.
> 
> I'd go for the car that looks well cared for - ALWAYS.


I must be reading something differnt. I did some research on the forum, and I guess the a4 is faster 0-60 times. I must have had it backwards this whole time.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Honestly guys, c'mon, those factory or magazine 0-60 times are about as "scientifically-based" as crop circles... 

0-60 times are predicated ENTIRELY upon the methods used when measuring the time, especially relating to the manual-shift cars..

Typically, when the factories or magazines do straight-line performance measurements in manual shift cars, they employ a STANDARDIZED shifting style that they feel "replicates what the average driver could reasonably achieve on a repeatable and consistant basis"... In short, they don't speed-shift, they don't play with slipping the clutch or managing tire-spin at launch, they don't screw with any tactics, they just engage and go in a methodical fashion.... This way, when they run tests of other vehicles, month after month, year after year, the comparisons in performance are as valid as they can reasonably achieve, as they have tried to eliminate as much DEVIATION as possible in the driving-style, in order to publish apples-apples-apples results to compare. Advantage: Automatic

With an automatic, it's much easier for them to standardize the tests without sacrificing performance. You just Line it up, and drop the hammer....

Furthermore, (we've had this debate before), who the hell worries about 0-60 in a 400 h.p. barn-burner?? Hell, by 60mph you've barely gotten through second gear and achieved full-traction. 0-60 in a truly stong vehicle is a measurement of traction, not quickness...

Real cars are compared using the 1/4 mile. Toy cars (hondas, neons) worry about 0-60... Sweating over your GTO's 0-60 is like watching olympic sprinters line up for a 5-yard dash.. The fun in having horsepower at the drag strip isn't in the first 1/8th mile, it's in the final 1/8th mile as the real story unfolds, and a weaker car's ability to hold-traction succumbs to a stronger car's hefty testicals... 

Anyhow, the real story is told out at the dragstrip... Manual-shift performance cars, stock vs. stock, ALWAYS post slightly better numbers at the track. And sure, there's always a few numbnutzes out there who drive a stick about as well as Paris Hilton acts, who just make a mess of their runs with pathetic launches, gawdawful slow shifts, and overall bozo-ness. I've been at the track with a stock manual-shift car, and run a FULL SECOND FASTER than the same car owned by a hopeless driver. So with manuals, it's 50% car and 50% driver. With the auto, it's 90% car and 10% driver...

Which is quicker, which is faster? Depends on who's behind the wheel of that M6... From a mechanical/physics standpoint, the M6 has more potential, it's more a matter of whether the pilot can exercise that potential...

(Not meant to start an A4-M6 war, I'm just trying to be factual...)
But get a good rower behind the wheel of an M6, and toss-out the "protocols", and I assure you that the M6 can be piloted to a quicker 0-60, and a quicker 1/4 mile, based on mechanical fact: The M6 has shorter effective tranny ratios going through 0-60 and the 1/4 mile, and less parasitic drag, and less weight... The only thing that would sway the race to the auto, would be shift-speed, and the technique used by the M6 driver. Allow the M6 driver unlimited technique, and assuming he's a quick rower, and forget about it.. I remember the video that GM gave me with my '93 Corvette. The factory said that you could expect 13.8 in the 1/4 mile with the auto, 13.4 with the M6. Four tenths is huge. Sure, that's not a GTO, but it illustrates my point that the more distance you give for the measurement, the more the mechanical advantage of the M6 kicks-in...


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

:agree


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## I_AV8_4U (Apr 24, 2007)

Very very well said 69boss!
If I were looking.....LS1GTO.com Forums - New 06' in Schaumburg Illinois, $24,900
I'de be in for a road trip!
Good luck,
Troy


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## GTOsarge (Oct 9, 2007)

Usually an automatic will be a little quicker because it's consistent. No variables on shift points ect... Not to say a manual is slower. But you have to add in a little human error. 
I've had manual hot rods and auto hot rods. The choice depends on your preference. If it's a daily driver it and you see traffic everyday a A4 might be the best choice. I've got auto in my Goat and don't miss a manual at all. It's still fast as hell and free's up a hand. What ever your choice you will be happy with your Goat. Keep us posted and Thanks for your service in Iraq.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

GTOsarge said:


> Usually an automatic will be a little quicker because it's consistent. No variables on shift points ect... Not to say a manual is slower. But you have to add in a little human error.
> I've had manual hot rods and auto hot rods. The choice depends on your preference. If it's a daily driver it and you see traffic everyday a A4 might be the best choice. I've got auto in my Goat and don't miss a manual at all. It's still fast as hell and free's up a hand. What ever your choice you will be happy with your Goat. Keep us posted and Thanks for your service in Iraq.


I have to disagree. You can't blame the car for it's driver's inadequacy. And not everybody is "inconsistent" shifting their manuals flat-out.. I've done a TON of organized drag-racing in my life (with manual-shift cars), and when I shoe-polish a dial on my window, I'm rarely going to deviate more than 1-tenth from that dial, worst-case scenario... I don't believe that I'm the Michael Jordan of driving, there's gotta be plenty of other schmoes like me out there who are quick and solid with the manual...

I babbled about this before, but I'll dredge it back up. When I used to race my stock '93 C4 M6 on a regular basis, I competed against a guy with a stock '93 C4 A4 who won the Sportsman championship that year for the Southeastern Division. Yes, his automatic allowed him to be RIDICULOUSLY consistent, the car was pure-money, always ran right on the number...

But I consistently ran 3-4 tenth and 3-5 mph faster e.t.'s/traps than him with my M6, every round, every time... His auto, that won the s.e. division, was NEVER ONCE "quicker" than my M6 (which really drove him crazy, but he was good humored about it, and what the hell, he was winning the rounds!)

You can't blame a car, or determine a car to be faster, based upon the assumption of poor skills, not in my book at least...


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## GTOsarge (Oct 9, 2007)

69bossnine said:


> I have to disagree. You can't blame the car for it's driver's inadequacy. And not everybody is "inconsistent" shifting their manuals flat-out.. I've done a TON of organized drag-racing in my life (with manual-shift cars), and when I shoe-polish a dial on my window, I'm rarely going to deviate more than 1-tenth from that dial, worst-case scenario... I don't believe that I'm the Michael Jordan of driving, there's gotta be plenty of other schmoes like me out there who are quick and solid with the manual...
> 
> I babbled about this before, but I'll dredge it back up. When I used to race my stock '93 C4 M6 on a regular basis, I competed against a guy with a stock '93 C4 A4 who won the Sportsman championship that year for the Southeastern Division. Yes, his automatic allowed him to be RIDICULOUSLY consistent, the car was pure-money, always ran right on the number...
> 
> ...


 Sure I can. I just did. My analogy was a general statement. Not a bash as I stated. Been around the block a few times myself and consistency was what I was getting at. An auto under all circumstances being the same will be more consistent. But I like both I just prefer an auto at this point in life.
A good driver will be just that. A good driver. A less skilled driver WILL make a car slower. To each his own and I respect your opinion.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

*Auguste Rodin would be so proud of this debate!*​


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## raspantienator (Nov 20, 2007)

Perhaps I missed it somewhere within this discussion, but the turns and hills also provide gobs of enjoyment with a stick. Whether you're speeding out of a turn or coming into one, a manual allows the added pleasure of using the engines compression to control the speed of the car.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Wing_Nut said:


> *Auguste Rodin would be so proud of this debate!*​



The ole' Dobie Gillis award.

Anyone know Dobie Gillis?? LOL


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

Yeah but I'm more of a Maynard G Krebs fan myself.










A truly nice guy!


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## NJG8GT (Nov 14, 2007)

69bossnine said:


> Honestly guys, c'mon, those factory or magazine 0-60 times are about as "scientifically-based" as crop circles...
> 
> 0-60 times are predicated ENTIRELY upon the methods used when measuring the time, especially relating to the manual-shift cars..
> 
> ...


Well put!!!!


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Wing_Nut said:


> Yeah but I'm more of a Maynard G Krebs fan myself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ROFL...Wing!! Maynard! LMAOOOOOOOO


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Just read 69Bossnines post again. In it he makes a statement that manual cars are always faster at the dragstrip. This is incorrect. The fastest cars are automatics. If you are building a sub 10second car you get an auto tranny. 

Now moving back to stock cars, which I think is Boss's intent, he's slightly wrong there too. The fastest C6 vette that we can compare on a stock auto versus manual basis, the A6 is faster through the 1/4 mile. So the Automatic beats the stick with an equal amount of gears and similar gear ratios. When the discussion comes back to the A4 versus the M6 the A4 is about 2 tenths behind the M6 and 3 tenths behind the A6. 

2 tenths though is still pretty close, but the A4 is proven to be slower when coupled with the LS2 as proven by this extensive list of results on the Corvette forum. I didn't check other GTO forums, but from the last time I looked it was about the same. The fastest stock A4 is about 2 tenths behind the fastest stock M6. 

Guess what I'm trying to say here is M6 to A6, the automatic is faster. A4 to M6 the manual is faster. But the difference is so close that it's almost a moot point.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Ughhh..... O.K., now we get to pick the fly $hit out of the pepper...

My statement that "automatics are always faster" was indeed an overgeneralization, you got me... But here are some valid points you're completely ignoring...

1. GTOsarge, you said that autos will always be "quicker" due to consistency. That statement is what I responded to. I find fault in telling somebody, "get the slightly slower car, you'll be able to drive it quicker because you probably can't drive".. I know, you didn't say that, but that's what I got from the 1st-sentence. No need to argue over it, I understand consistency..

2. Fergy, you're reversing the logic... The faster competitive race cars use autos for consistency, not to eek another 10th out of their setup. Anything running in the 10's is typically in a "bracket" class, and is capable of running faster than their bracket anyhow. That type of racing is SO dependent upon consistency, that yes, the automatic is almost a must... Furthermore, when you move to an aftermarket converter, you eliminate one of the crappy elements of a stock automatic as it applies to 0-whatever sprinting, the launch... Nobody's "wrong" here, but there's alot of missing-the-point..

3. Yes, these newer 6-speed and 7-speed automatics eliminate one of the advantages that had previously been exclusive to the manuals, effective gear-ratio advantage throughout most of the run... That helps tip the scales to the automatic, as the only remaining negatives you've got left is the parasitic-drag factor and inability to launch at peak torque. Hence the C6 having a quicker auto. The new automatic in the Mustang GT also is a touch quicker than the M5...

New technologies are changing the landscape, I'll admit, and I was painting with a broad brush. But let's face it, the GTO's automatic is an old dinosaur, has only 4-gears, and works GREAT for everyday driving but isn't quite as quick at the drag-strip, unless you wish to stand by the argument that consistency trumps best-elapsed-time.

We ARE talking GTO's here, but I apologize for the generalizations... Lord, let's not start getting into sequential-manuals in Ferraris...


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## GTOsarge (Oct 9, 2007)

I understand your point. Same here. I apologize for adding to the never ending auto/manual fray.

Enough said. Thanks guy's.


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## raspantienator (Nov 20, 2007)

Noboby seems to have the desire to talk speed turns here. I'm up for straight line acceleration and shifting skill but doesn't the Goat have some twisty potential as well? 
I love accelerating out of a turn up a hill and the GTO delivers.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

raspantienator said:


> Noboby seems to have the desire to talk speed turns here. I'm up for straight line acceleration and shifting skill but doesn't the Goat have some twisty potential as well?
> I love accelerating out of a turn up a hill and the GTO delivers.


The highest point in Florida is 175' above sea level. There is Sugarloaf Mountain close to where I live. Everyone talks about the hills in that area. It ranges from 50' above sea level to 150' above sea level. LOL. The only real turns here are entrance and exit ramps. I've completely forgot about that stuff.

Thanks for reminding me. I drove my 6M GTO through the mountains of West Virginia and loved every minute of it. It was definately more fun in a manual. I made the same drive a couple times in my 4A Z28 and it was fun, but not as much as the GTO was.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

For twisty driving, especially mountain driving, stick-shift is the only way to fly...

I've got some super curves in and around where I live north of Orlando in Ocala, where it does get "rolly" in places throughout horse country...

But as nicely as it handles, I don't find myself pushing the Goat much through the corners... I've got another car that makes the GTO's handling seem school-bus-ish in comparison, so it kinda dampens my spirit to chew up tires... Fergy's got a Corvette, he can relate....   

My main joy in the GTO is old-school american muscle-car sounds and torque and useability, wrapped in such a refined and nice-riding package.


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## GTOsarge (Oct 9, 2007)

69bossnine said:


> For twisty driving, especially mountain driving, stick-shift is the only way to fly...
> 
> I've got some super curves in and around where I live north of Orlando in Ocala, where it does get "rolly" in places throughout horse country...
> 
> ...


 Now your talking!:cheers

What I sold a month before the Goat' I'll have another one soon.


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## Mike_V (Mar 10, 2006)

Wow, that was a lot of posting just because I corrected a reversal to the factory literature.

To record acceleration times, the factory can do anything they want short of changing the car. No spare, a cup of gas, and an anorexic woman at the wheel escaping from hotdog cart.

I can say, test driving the manual really helped me decide on the auto. From the factory, the manual left a lot to be desired. If they managed 4.7 without trashing the rear, good for them. In the end, I was shocked I went with the auto (first auto in 20+ years), but it's just really nice. Honestly, I don't miss shifting even a little.


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*M/6 - A/4. non turbo non supercharged*

I let records speak for themselves

LS2 Modified - Engine Work, (Stock CI Engine, Cam, Heads, Intake, every other bolt-on), Last Updated: 12/11/2007 

1) A4, Badgto [email protected] 1.47 60', Cartek stage 2 H/C, 3200tc, FAST 90, LTs, 3.91's
2) M6, RUQWIKR, [email protected] 1.56 60', LPE H/C, SW LTs, 3.91's
3) A4, Open Wheel 11.526 @118.79 1.584 60', LPE H/C/I, Kooks LTs/CB, 3.91's, 3600TC
4) A4, YellowGTO05, 11.526 @ 116.72 1.626 60', HPE heads, cam, LSX Intake, 3600 stall
5) A4, jonebgoode 11.56 @ 117.65 1.572 60' 224/224 TFS 225 heads, kooks, 3.73
6) A4, PBANDPKGTO, [email protected] 1.698 60'L92/L76,Tiger Shark cam,Kooks LTs,3600TC,Spintech
7) M6, sjones99 [email protected] 1.638 60', 240/244 cam afr 225 heads 3.91 gear k&n cai
8) M6, Paco Loco 11.681 @ 118.70 1.638 60', Precision port heads, 232/232 cam kooksLT
9) A4, miami GTO 11.731 @ 114.08 1.62 60', Cartek H/C, Kooks LTs, TC, Fast 90, K&N CAI
10) M6, Todd0 [email protected] 1.65 60 TFS 225,FTI 236/240,FAST 90,Kooks LT, 3.91s

LS2 Cam only class (Cam, Headers,Intake + Any other mod from Bolt-ons, Etc) , Last Updated: 12/11/2007 

1) A4, housewolf, 11.328 @ 118.46 1.574 60', HPE S-Cam, Vig 3K, ARH LTs, FAST 90, Corsa CB
2) A4, , 11.331 @ 117.06 1.66 60' HPE S2-cam, Vig4400, Ported TB, 1 7/8 Kooks LT's
3) A4, Fraggercrue, [email protected] 1.574 60', F14 cam, Yank 3600, Hardcore Intake, Kooks 1 3/4
4) A4, Nearing, [email protected] 1.605 60', HPE C-Cam, Kooks LT's, Fast 90, 3600TC
5) M6, Rossils2, 11.64 @118.71 1.638 60', Comp 232/234, Pace LTs, Fast 90, SLP LM1
6) A4, SSmoked 11.714 @ 117.47 LPE Intake, FAST90, AZPS03 cam, SW Headers no cats
7) A4, barkingspud 11.718 @ 113.42 1.58 60', 231/237, FAST 90, SW LT, 3600 tc, 3.91
8) M6, ExTurbo, 11.73 @ 118.87 1.702 60' TSP Torquer V3, SLP LT's ,3.91 gear, Spintech 
9) A4, NYTiger, 11.766 @ 116.46 1.689 60', TTP Punisher cam, Pace LTs, H/Mufflers
10) M6, Flash99, 11.807 @ 117.44 1.65 60' Cam, Pace LT's, Fast 90, 3.91's

LS2 Modified - Bolt Ons / Tune Only: (must retain unmodified factory designated cylinder heads (no porting) camshaft and short block plus any other mod in Super Stock), Last Updated: 12/24/2007 

1) A4, speedshifter [email protected] 1.707 60', kooks 1 7/8, borla, K&N CAI, ported tb, UDP
2) A4, Old_Goat 12.126 @ 110.61 1.683 60', LPE CAI, X pipe, cutout, ARH 1 7/8 LT, 3200 vig,hpe tune
3) A4, andrewzpsu, [email protected] 1.784 60' Pace LT's, Tune
4) A4, Caveman 12.173 @ 111.59 1.687 60' Kooks catted, X pipe-stock mufflers, LPE cai, Fuddle 3000 
5) M6, woodnutz [email protected] 1.771 60' Kooks LT's, Spintech Catback, LPE CAI, Ported Intake
6) A4, MacDogg [email protected] 1.738 60' LPE cai, kooks, tune, A4, viglante 3200
7) A4, powershiftkung, [email protected] 1.65 60' SW LTs, CB, 3200tc, Pulley, K&N CAI, TTP Tune
8) A4, Bluhaven, [email protected] 1.621 60', Kooks LTs, 2800TC, 3.73's, Tune
9) M6, exturbo [email protected] SLP long tube headers, Spintech catback, volant cai
10) M6, GtOALIE, [email protected] 1.788 60', Kooks 1 7/8, Flow 40's, Nitto DR's.
Super Stock
Allowed: Tuning, exhaust mods after manifolds, underdrive pulley, shifters, ported intake manifold, drag radials, CAI, Throttle body,etc 
Not allowed: Headers, aftermarket torque converters. No gear lower then 3.46. , Last Updated: 12/02/2007 

1) A4 [email protected], 1.8 60', removed MAF screen, no mufflers, air bags, DRs
2) A4, 05 red tomcat, [email protected] 1.871 60', SLP LM2,Home 4" CAI
3) M6, Slow Sho 12.54 @ 111.74 Catback, Nitto's
4) A4, 8100hammer [email protected] A4 tune only
5) A4, andrewzpsu, [email protected] 1.914 60', Tune
6) M6, fjpelkey2001 [email protected] K&N drop in, catback, stock tires, gutted cats
7) M6, Scottsred05gto, [email protected] 1.852 60', Tune, tires
8) M6, hellhammer 12.76 @ 108.5 MPH headlight removed and DRs
9) A4, EZ SPEED, [email protected] ,Flow 44s, SF H Pipe, Tune


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

LOWET, what you have just shown us is what I said earlier. If you are serious about drag racing, you buy an auto. A torque converter does wonders for the launch and you just can't manually change gears as fast and perfect as a well set up auto. 

Stock though, without the torque converter, the A4 versus the M6 would still favor the M6. Make the number of gears equal, in a modern A6 say, and the Auto is on top again.


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

fergyflyer said:


> LOWET, what you have just shown us is what I said earlier. If you are serious about drag racing, you buy an auto. A torque converter does wonders for the launch and you just can't manually change gears as fast and perfect as a well set up auto.
> 
> Stock though, without the torque converter, the A4 versus the M6 would still favor the M6. Make the number of gears equal, in a modern A6 say, and the Auto is on top again.


The 04-06 GTO's were purchased because of the IN YOUR FACE power and Straight Line performance, little if any at all where purchased for Road Racing. I feel All in All the A/4 is the best way to go In pure stock , most of the top 10 spots are owned by the A/4. . Both trannies have their PROS & CONS and I feel it it is up to the buyer as to what he or she wants, Either trans is good with me. They are both connected to the same MOTOR


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

LOWET said:


> The 04-06 GTO's were purchased because of the IN YOUR FACE power and Straight Line performance, little if any at all where purchased for Road Racing.


God I wish Pontiac hadn't hadn't hung this giant stone around the poor car's neck by calling it a GTO.

The mulletude have mounted the poor thing in a state of frezied ecstasy thinking they're humping an F-body only to find out they were with someone foreign and completely different when the lights came on. Now, the mulletude is not known for quick thinking or the ability to embrace change. The ensuing system shock likely had them pausing for a "deer in the headlights" moment before going right back to pounding away like it was 1985 and the GTO was the first Trans Am in the neighborhood.

News flash....the GTO is not a replacement for a 60's low tech muscle car, it's not a low rent F-body replacement, and it's not a drag racer with a solid rear axle. 

It has a real grownup independent rear suspension. It weighs more than 3,700 lbs. The interior is actually a nice place to spend time.

It's a Grand Touring coupe! 

Many of us bought it because it was a cheap, good quality car, with 400HP, great seats, and a nice all around suspension, and surprise.....no utterly tasteless decals. I.E. Many of us bought it because it was so obviously not like the embarrassing Pontiacs of yore.


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

Wing_Nut said:


> God I wish Pontiac hadn't hadn't hung this giant stone around the poor car's neck by calling it a GTO.
> 
> The mulletude have mounted the poor thing in a state of frezied ecstasy thinking they're humping an F-body only to find out they were with someone foreign and completely different when the lights came on. Now, the mulletude is not known for quick thinking or the ability to embrace change. The ensuing system shock likely had them pausing for a "deer in the headlights" moment before going right back to pounding away like it was 1985 and the GTO was the first Trans Am in the neighborhood.
> 
> ...


I don't think a single person purchased this car as a Touring Coupe. They purchased it for Killer Motor and raw power, the comfort was just a added bonus. YOUR reply has nothing to do with the 1st question, A/4 or M/6


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## raspantienator (Nov 20, 2007)

All of you have excellent points but we may each have our own various reasons and perspectives of how this car makes us feel so good. I'm not a shrink but it just shows the many capabilities the modern GTO has and tranfers on us. Great heritage, great name, great car.


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## NJG8GT (Nov 14, 2007)

raspantienator said:


> All of you have excellent points but we may each have our own various reasons and perspectives of how this car makes us feel so good. I'm not a shrink but it just shows the many capabilities the modern GTO has and tranfers on us. Great heritage, great name, great car.


:agree that is why we are all here!


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

I bought mine pretty much because it was a refined and comfortable touring coupe, that had the kind of power that would help me not be BORED with the thing after a month or two's ownership...

Thusfar, my plan has been successful... I'm going on 6 months, and I'm not bored yet... I like the LS2... But it goes way beyond the motor... If they still made the old F-body platform, and the LS2 was in it, I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole...

That doesn't mean I'm not eyeballing this new Camaro though... But that's another platform, another story, another thread.....


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

69bossnine said:


> I bought mine pretty much because it was a refined and comfortable touring coupe, that had the kind of power that would help me not be BORED with the thing after a month or two's ownership...
> 
> Thusfar, my plan has been successful... I'm going on 6 months, and I'm not bored yet... I like the LS2... But it goes way beyond the motor... If they still made the old F-body platform, and the LS2 was in it, I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole...
> 
> That doesn't mean I'm not eyeballing this new Camaro though... But that's another platform, another story, another thread.....












Shhhhh......no ya didn't! 

He doesn't mean it LOWET!

He bought the GTO cause it had lotsa raw power!
He love's to stomp the go pedal for 5 seconds between stoplights and then stomp the brake pedal just as hard.
He can do this over and over and over again without getting bored.

Me too! I was only kidding with that Grand Touring wisecrack.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

That's a fine kettle of fish you have gotten us in to Stanley.


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

Wing_Nut said:


> Shhhhh......no ya didn't!
> 
> He doesn't mean it LOWET!
> 
> ...


If we wanted a GRAND Touring Coupe , I think most of us whould have purchased a MUSTANG, ha,ha,ha


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## Tacmedic (Feb 24, 2006)

*I bought mine....*

...to tow my motorcycles to the racetrack :lol:


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

LOWET said:


> If we wanted a GRAND Touring Coupe , I think most of us whould have purchased a MUSTANG, ha,ha,ha


No, the Mustake has always been a low cost platform configured with two doors and a vestigial back seat. Suspension components are strictly parts bin engineering to keep costs down. Ditto drivetrain components. Take the most powerful high volume V8 you've got and combine it with a 40 year old axle design. For the interior, include the basic options that 75% of the market will order but don't spend money on premium materials or fit n finish.

This lowest common denominator design mentality allows Ford (or Chevy & Pontiac) to field a very low cost Pony car with nice styling and good straight line perfomance for the money. And they sell in high volume to people who either can't afford or don't appreciate anything better. Or maybe they don't justify spending the money for a better car.

Whatever the case, a Pony car is the exact opposite of a Grand Touring car. Which is exactly why Pontiac should have called this Holden anything but a GTO. The Mulletude, still mourning the loss of the beloved F-body, thought they were getting a replacement for the Camaro/TransAm. When the GTO was priced at $34 grand, they bemoaned the price. They didn't get it. Then they whined about the weight. They still didn't get it. Then, when they finally got their mullet mitts on one, they realized that the IRS didn't behave like the cheap, solid rear axle in a Camaro for mullet racing. They will never get it! The mulletude still thinks GM screwed up the rebirth of the F-body. Meanwhile, the boys at Holden were aiming at a completely different design goal. Better chassis, better suspension, better materials, better fit and finish, a usable rear seat. In short a Grand Touring car. Albeit, a Grand Tourer at the low end of the price spectrum.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Wing_Nut said:


> No, the Mustake has always been a low cost platform configured with two doors and a vestigial back seat. Suspension components are strictly parts bin engineering to keep costs down. Ditto drivetrain components. Take the most powerful high volume V8 you've got and combine it with a 40 year old axle design. For the interior, include the basic options that 75% of the market will order but don't spend money on premium materials or fit n finish.
> 
> This lowest common denominator design mentality allows Ford (or Chevy & Pontiac) to field a very low cost Pony car with nice styling and good straight line perfomance for the money. And they sell in high volume to people who either can't afford or don't appreciate anything better. Or maybe they don't justify spending the money for a better car.
> 
> Whatever the case, a Pony car is the exact opposite of a Grand Touring car. Which is exactly why Pontiac should have called this Holden anything but a GTO. The Mulletude, still mourning the loss of the beloved F-body, thought they were getting a replacement for the Camaro/TransAm. When the GTO was priced at $34 grand, they bemoaned the price. They didn't get it. Then they whined about the weight. They still didn't get it. Then, when they finally got their mullet mitts on one, they realized that the IRS didn't behave like the cheap, solid rear axle in a Camaro for mullet racing. They will never get it! The mulletude still thinks GM screwed up the rebirth of the F-body. Meanwhile, the boys at Holden were aiming at a completely different design goal. Better chassis, better suspension, better materials, better fit and finish, a usable rear seat. In short a Grand Touring car. Albeit, a Grand Tourer at the low end of the price spectrum.


Well said Wing. 

Some people go to Ruth's Chris or other fine steakhouses for a steak. Some go to the Golden Corral and think they are getting the same thing for less. 

The GTO to me was perfect at splitting the difference. It provided 90% the Grand Touring ablities of a Mercedes CLK for half the price. It did a decent job at the drag strip, which wasn't the design intentions, but provided a great ride and good road manners. It isn't the best at anything but is much better than average at everything. 

I still think the GTO name fits though. Think back to the original. It wasn't really intended to head to the drag strip or the road course, it was just the nice midsize Pontiac with a better suspension and more power. The original was more of a GT car of it's time. That doesn't mean it wasn't a good drag racer, it was. But you could also put the wife and kids in it and head to the mountains for a nice drive. You also didn't feel out of place heading to a nice place to eat in one and letting the valet park it. 

I think timing was bad for the GTO. GM should have brought this thing out in 1998 when it brought out the Catera. Then it wouldn't have been confused with the F-bady at all. You have people looking for their beloved F-Body and still in shock that GM really did kill it. A year goes by and this car, the GTO, shows up. It's just a natural reaction to think that GM came to it's senses and brought your car back. You go to check it out and realize that it's way more expensive, but seems really nice. You drive it and go hey this isn't an F-body and leave. Anyone looking for this type of car makes the same assumption, it's the F-body replacement and they want nothing to do with it. 

I really think the GTO name was the right name.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

fergyflyer said:


> Well said Wing.
> 
> I still think the GTO name fits though. Think back to the original. It wasn't really intended to head to the drag strip or the road course, it was just the nice midsize Pontiac with a better suspension and more power. The original was more of a GT car of it's time. That doesn't mean it wasn't a good drag racer, it was. But you could also put the wife and kids in it and head to the mountains for a nice drive. You also didn't feel out of place heading to a nice place to eat in one and letting the valet park it.
> 
> I really think the GTO name was the right name.


I agree completely. The original was more of a Grand Touring coupe of its day. So the GTO moniker made sense.

And, the 2004 - 2006 Holden was I believe, a very faithful revival of the original GTO concept and therefore entitled to carry the name. More so because the new version was a better car for it's day than the original was for 1965.

The only problem came not from the car but the customer base. Customers in 2004 were thoroughly clueless. They had lost sight of the original GTO concept while they expected any car with the GTO name to be a literal retro replica of a 60's muscle car. And, they were thoroughly confused by the introduction of the GTO on the heels of the massacre of their beloved F-body.

Adding to the confusion, GM didn't spend a dime to get the word out to any potential market the car may have had.

That's the only reason I say it was a mistake to give the Holden a GTO badge. Customer expectations were all wrong and GM didn't lift a finger to set them straight. This is a case study in poor marketing and not understanding your market. 

Unfortunate. The car was an excellent value even at full MSRP.


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## NJG8GT (Nov 14, 2007)

it can be a road racer, check this out!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ftVwtIengY


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

NJgoat said:


> it can be a road racer, check this out!
> 
> 
> YouTube - Drifting in a Pontiac GTO at Daytona International Speedway


 
Hey, I can orbit a closed track in my SUV. But I don't consider it a competitive road racer.

By the way, I took a look at the Daytona road course map. Goofy. I understand why it's known primarily as a big oval venue for Nascar.


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