# Tell me about a 1966 GTO with an original 421



## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

Over at my buddies body shop showing off the new 12 bolt in my 66 GTO. He's thinking of buying one from the same place I did (Home). ----highly recommended BTW
We get to chatting cars, he mentions someone he knows with a 1966 GTO with a factory 421. Off the top of my head, my reaction is "1966=389" . He swears it's factory. Says it has 421 emblems on the fenders.
So, I'm on lockdown, I'm poking around the internet and I see little tidbits of stories where they tried 421s in 1966, but only prototypes where made. Some think they were grabbed up by high ranking folks within the company, so maybe they're out there?
I fix cars for a living, so I look up parts all day.
If I go to most of my vendor's catalogs, I see 6.9L as a choice for engine size in 1966.
So what is the story? Anybody know for sure? Got a lead?


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Of course Royal put these engines in at the dealership named bobcat,heard rumors too about these,but gm rules until 70 kept them under 400 ci. Never made sense because putting 427in a corvette and all


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Also remember the famous test of Ferrari GTO against our GTO had the 421 installed for that comparison 👍


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

Mine'sa66 said:


> Over at my buddies body shop showing off the new 12 bolt in my 66 GTO. He's thinking of buying one from the same place I did (Home). ----highly recommended BTW
> We get to chatting cars, he mentions someone he knows with a 1966 GTO with a factory 421. Off the top of my head, my reaction is "1966=389" . He swears it's factory. Says it has 421 emblems on the fenders.
> So, I'm on lockdown, I'm poking around the internet and I see little tidbits of stories where they tried 421s in 1966, but only prototypes where made. Some think they were grabbed up by high ranking folks within the company, so maybe they're out there?
> I fix cars for a living, so I look up parts all day.
> ...


I don't know how searchable the PHS database is, but would they be able to search for the existence of such cars with their data?


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

There was never one from the factory. Even the one in the '64 for the test with the Ferarri was modified by the Pontiac Engineering department.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

On the '64 I should say that the Engineering department had a hand in it. I don't remember for sure if is was first built with a 389. I'd ask Jim Wangers, but his memory is not so good anymore.


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

I think he still has that car Taylor


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)




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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)




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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

I just went back through JW's book. The car was initially built with a 389, and then upgraded to a 421. Jim hasn't owned the car for a very long time. I think he sold or gave it away in '65 or '66. The current owner is Tenney Fairchild. Tenney has had it fully restored, and he is a GREAT caretaker for the car.,


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

pontrc said:


> View attachment 135037


That a was a photo shoot a few years ago using Tenney's car. Jim had actually stopped driving about that time. I know as I drove him a lot of places.


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

That is something Taylor knowing him personally 👍


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

I finally found the picture I was looking for. We all met at Musso and Frank's in Hollywood for lunch (thanks Tenney). From the left are Dave Anderson, myself, Jim Wangers, Tenney Fairchild and Gordon Wangers (Jim's nephew). While we were waiting for everyone. Jim got up for some reason, and it looked like it would make a good picture. Hence the one with Jim by himself.


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Back to the 66 the only thing I’m reading on the 421 situation is that Royal did set up cars for the geeto drag racing program


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> I finally found the picture I was looking for. We all met at Musso and Frank's in Hollywood for lunch (thanks Tenney). From the left are Dave Anderson, myself, Jim Wangers, Tenney Fairchild and Gordon Wangers (Jim's nephew). While we were waiting for everyone. Jim got up for some reason, and it looked like it would make a good picture. Hence the one with Jim by himself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wished I was their eating lol


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

pontrc said:


> That is something Taylor knowing him personally 👍


Jim has been a good friend for about 30 years. I've had the chance to spend hours at a time talking (listening) to him, and it was never a dull moment. I always learned something new. Now I fear I'm forgetting a lot of it. Getting to know him allowed me to meet people I would not have been able to do on my own. They were great times. He also considered himself a member of our local San Diego Pontiac club, so I took him to most of our Christmas parties. He's now in a memory car facility about 5 miles from my house. The attached pictures were at his 93rd birthday party last June at that facility.  My sign painter friend (who died in March) made the big birthday card.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

pontrc said:


> Back to the 66 the only thing I’m reading on the 421 situation is that Royal did set up cars for the geeto drag racing program


But the original point was that the factory never built them that way. They were always upgraded from a 389 to a 421.


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Your right Taylor that engine was not optioned for the goat last year for the 389 and tri power


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## GTOJUNIOR (Aug 7, 2011)

The "RINGER" as seen at the 2014 GM Nationals.
We were displayed right behind it all weekend and were able to take a very close look at it.
Scott did an amazing job on Tenny's car.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

We used to have a New Years get together when Art Fitzpatrick (Fitz) was a live. Tenney had his car brought down on a flat bed, and then he unloaded it. Before the day was over he asked if I wanted to ride in it. The answer was obvious. It was a fun ride. I still haven't had a chance to take him out in mine.


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> We used to have a New Years get together when Art Fitzpatrick (Fitz) was a live. Tenney had his car brought down on a flat bed, and then he unloaded it. Before the day was over he asked if I wanted to ride in it. The answer was obvious. It was a fun ride. I still haven't had a chance to take him out in mine.
> 
> View attachment 135051


I like the blue 72


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

Me too.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

There are some old stories about the guys who worked "on the line" finagling things so that as their personal car was rolling down the assembly line, it just happened to work out that "someone made a mistake - aw shucks" so that when the car got to the engine drop point it got a 421 instead of a 389. However I've never heard of that being an option that was available to the public though.

Bear


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

BearGFR said:


> There are some old stories about the guys who worked "on the line" finagling things so that as their personal car was rolling down the assembly line, it just happened to work out that "someone made a mistake - aw shucks" so that when the car got to the engine drop point it got a 421 instead of a 389. However I've never heard of that being an option that was available to the public though.
> 
> Bear


So just casually walk over to the 2+2 line and roll it to the gto line lol


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

The way I heard it explained, was that for the engine drop all the cars came down the same line: A-body, B-body, etc. Back "upstream" the engines got loaded onto a separate "conveyor" and started on their way. There was a point where the two came together and the engine got dropped into the chassis. If someone were to "make a mistake" and load the wrong engine in the wrong sequence, there was no way they were going to shut down the whole line at that point long enough to permit correcting the "problem". If the engine was "close enough", they just kept running. My information though is at least 2nd or 3rd hand, so I can't attest to its veracity.

Bear


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Boy would I just love to go back in time to see it happen at the factory bear


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## Jerry H. (Mar 19, 2020)

BearGFR said:


> The way I heard it explained, was that for the engine drop all the cars came down the same line: A-body, B-body, etc. Back "upstream" the engines got loaded onto a separate "conveyor" and started on their way. There was a point where the two came together and the engine got dropped into the chassis. If someone were to "make a mistake" and load the wrong engine in the wrong sequence, there was no way they were going to shut down the whole line at that point long enough to permit correcting the "problem". If the engine was "close enough", they just kept running. My information though is at least 2nd or 3rd hand, so I can't attest to its veracity.
> 
> Bear


All kinds of rumors have surfaced over the years, yet NONE have been proven. The 421 wasn't part of the 'Bobcat' kit at Royal Pontiac, although they probably did upgrade a few. But I've not seen any documentation of that either.


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Only thing I read is that Royal set up the geeto drag race team with 421 HOs not sure if they did dealer installed to the public


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

Over the years I've run into several '64 GTO's with 421 emblems on the front fenders. Their story was that it was a factory option. None of them wanted to talk or race.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

BearGFR said:


> The way I heard it explained, was that for the engine drop all the cars came down the same line: A-body, B-body, etc. Back "upstream" the engines got loaded onto a separate "conveyor" and started on their way. There was a point where the two came together and the engine got dropped into the chassis. If someone were to "make a mistake" and load the wrong engine in the wrong sequence, there was no way they were going to shut down the whole line at that point long enough to permit correcting the "problem". If the engine was "close enough", they just kept running. My information though is at least 2nd or 3rd hand, so I can't attest to its veracity.
> 
> Bear





pontrc said:


> Boy would I just love to go back in time to see it happen at the factory bear





Old Man Taylor said:


> Over the years I've run into several '64 GTO's with 421 emblems on the front fenders. Their story was that it was a factory option. None of them wanted to talk or race.


Even if not true, I love to imagine back before there were monitors and cameras supervising us everywhere, that some young buck got creative and orchestrated some "mistake" to be made like this for himself, a friend or family member. I guess if he was discreet, there would be no documentation of the "wrong" engine being installed. Maybe some auditor would have found a miscount later? It is fun to think about.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

pontrc said:


> Only thing I read is that Royal set up the geeto drag race team with 421 HOs not sure if they did dealer installed to the public


The race team cars in 1966 were 389CI, not 421. They used the XS code 389CI option which was the tri-power "ram air" version, close ratio 4-speeds, and 3.90/4.33 gears (I would have to check on the gearing to be correct). I believe that 421 use was said by Wangers in his book, and Milt Schornack in his book corrected that.

No 421CI, or 428CI engines were factory installed. Any installation was dealer or owner. I don't think it would be possible to slip a 421 into a GTO at the factory. Quality control would have surely caught it, ie engine code/EUN, and no doubt the bean counters would not have allowed losing money on the higher priced 421. And being union factories, I am sure others would have to be in on the swap and I don't think anyone would be willing to chance getting fired at what these guys got paid. LOL


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> The race team cars in 1966 were 389CI, not 421. They used the XS code 389CI option which was the tri-power "ram air" version, close ratio 4-speeds, and 3.90/4.33 gears (I would have to check on the gearing to be correct). I believe that 421 use was said by Wangers in his book, and Milt Schornack in his book corrected that.
> 
> No 421CI, or 428CI engines were factory installed. Any installation was dealer or owner. I don't think it would be possible to slip a 421 into a GTO at the factory. Quality control would have surely caught it, ie engine code/EUN, and no doubt the bean counters would not have allowed losing money on the higher priced 421. And being union factories, I am sure others would have to be in on the swap and I don't think anyone would be willing to chance getting fired at what these guys got paid. LOL


Damn Jim I was wondering when you was going to weigh in on this


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

Month or so ago, Smoke Signals Magazine had a story of a line supervisor at the Pontiac plant who ordered a late 70s Grand Am with all the good stuff for that era. Basically by buying Donuts for those involved during the night shift when it was built, they blueprinted the car and engine. In other words, the white glove treatment insuring everything was perfect. The engine received blueprinted parts and other supervisors personally insured it went into his Grand Am. This supervisor still owns the car today.


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

O52 said:


> Month or so ago, Smoke Signals Magazine had a story of a line supervisor at the Pontiac plant who ordered a late 70s Grand Am with all the good stuff for that era. Basically by buying Donuts for those involved during the night shift when it was built, they blueprinted the car and engine. In other words, the white glove treatment insuring everything was perfect. The engine received blueprinted parts and other supervisors personally insured it went into his Grand Am. This supervisor still owns the car today.


SD455?


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

pontrc said:


> SD455?



Not if it was late 70's. The SD455 was '73 and '74 only.


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## tDub (May 6, 2018)

Hello All, please correct me if Iḿ wrong; I have a convertable 66 4spd sitting on the back burner for about 10 years now. Had a machine shop redo the engine, and they informed me the car has a 421 I asked the mechanic who was doing the rebuild if the engine ever looked like it had been changed, and he told me not that he could tell. (that was about 15 years ago) I later replaced the clutch and had problems with Summit Racing (I think) because they had no listing for a gto with 421. I then started to do research, and found some literature about Pontiac running NASCAR Catalinas with 421s (I believe there is one or two valuable aluminum body models floating around somewhere). Anyway what I further discovered is that the 421 and 389 blocks are the same in that, intake, exhaust, etc can be interchanged. My car (here in Hawaii) was ordered from the dealer (i have the build sheet) with factory air. Now why would you need factory air in a convertable? Because at the same time the car was ordered, a 421 shortblock was ordered. GM would not allow an A body car to ship from the factory with a engine larger than 389 in 1966. (which may explain why they relented a litlle in 1967 due to competion with other car models, and shipped GTOs from the factory with a 400) Anyway, from what I have gathered, you walked into the Pontiac dealer, ordered your car with AC because an AC car has an oversized radiator, and at the same time ordered the 421 shortblock and paid the dealer for the swith out, so when the car arrived, the engine was yanked, exhaust intake accessories etc were switched to the 421 block and reinstalled in the car. When your car was delivered to you, you drove off the lot with a "dealer option" GTO with a 421, but the emblem badges were not changed, fakeing out any competitor in a stop light off the line challange. (unfortunatly the previous owner did not order power brakes which makes stopping interesting). Please update me if I have any of this wrong because I did spend hours of research trying to get to the bottom of why my car has a 421; btw the casting numbers on the block, exhaust & intake of of the same year series making unlikely the idea that someone (my car was a one owner) could go to the junkyard in later years to buy a 421 & find a matching casting series.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

pontrc said:


> Damn Jim I was wondering when you was going to weigh in on this


Was just watching to see where it was going to wind up. LOL I don't think the 421 swap was done much as you could get pretty good performance out of a well prepped tri-power engine, or even 4-Bbl. You have to remember that all things cost and after buying a 389CI GTO in any form and then paying extra for the 421 and labor would have really had a big price tag and not for the average guy. The 428 swap which was offered and better known, was the same deal, you had to buy the GTO with its 400CI and pay extra for the 428 swap. It was a dealership swap. I talked with an older gentleman at a car show who was from the New York/Long Island area and not far from where Motion Performance was located. He bought 2 new matching1968 GTO's. A hardtop 4-speed for himself and an automatic convertible for his wife. The dealer asked him if he wanted to order a 428 to replace the 400CI. He told him yes, and the dealer said it would be a few more weeks additional for such an order. When his 428 GTO arrived at the dealer, he went and picked up both cars - his wife's car had arrived earlier.


He said it was a fast car. Then as it got older, he set it up to race circle track. With the body banged/beat up, he retired the car, pulled the engine/transmission and scrapped the body. He held on to the 428CI and it went with him during a couple relocations. He was a master body man who did customs. At the car show where I met him, the 428CI was sitting in one of his hot rods with dual quads and the adapters to put them sideways like a crossram intake. The heads did not have any numbers as they were smoothed out, and there was no engine letter code. My guess is he cleaned up the engine to make it more "show" worthy and smooth. It did have the transfer lug on the back of the block indicating a 428, so I had to believe his story as being true. Long Island during that time had a number of dealerships that offered modified cars for street/drag racing right off the showroom floor and there was a Pontiac dealership that did the 428 installations and I have an article on their 428/Firebird installation.


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> Not if it was late 70's. The SD455 was '73 and '74 only.


Your right Taylor but I think the Grand am only made it until 75 or 76, if it was the first in 73 it could have received it


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

This is the car of a friend of mine. It's a 455 Pontiac tri-power with Edelbrock heads. I got to know him by helping him with the engine and the tri-power. That's his business name on the side of the car, Super Rides by Jordan.


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> This is the car of a friend of mine. It's a 455 Pontiac tri-power with Edelbrock heads. I got to know him by helping him with the engine and the tri-power. That's his business name on the side of the car, Super Rides by Jordan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is sweet


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

tDub said:


> Hello All, please correct me if Iḿ wrong; I have a convertable 66 4spd sitting on the back burner for about 10 years now. Had a machine shop redo the engine, and they informed me the car has a 421 I asked the mechanic who was doing the rebuild if the engine ever looked like it had been changed, and he told me not that he could tell. (that was about 15 years ago) I later replaced the clutch and had problems with Summit Racing (I think) because they had no listing for a gto with 421. I then started to do research, and found some literature about Pontiac running NASCAR Catalinas with 421s (I believe there is one or two valuable aluminum body models floating around somewhere). Anyway what I further discovered is that the 421 and 389 blocks are the same in that, intake, exhaust, etc can be interchanged. My car (here in Hawaii) was ordered from the dealer (i have the build sheet) with factory air. Now why would you need factory air in a convertable? Because at the same time the car was ordered, a 421 shortblock was ordered. GM would not allow an A body car to ship from the factory with a engine larger than 389 in 1966. (which may explain why they relented a litlle in 1967 due to competion with other car models, and shipped GTOs from the factory with a 400) Anyway, from what I have gathered, you walked into the Pontiac dealer, ordered your car with AC because an AC car has an oversized radiator, and at the same time ordered the 421 shortblock and paid the dealer for the swith out, so when the car arrived, the engine was yanked, exhaust intake accessories etc were switched to the 421 block and reinstalled in the car. When your car was delivered to you, you drove off the lot with a "dealer option" GTO with a 421, but the emblem badges were not changed, fakeing out any competitor in a stop light off the line challange. (unfortunatly the previous owner did not order power brakes which makes stopping interesting). Please update me if I have any of this wrong because I did spend hours of research trying to get to the bottom of why my car has a 421; btw the casting numbers on the block, exhaust & intake of of the same year series making unlikely the idea that someone (my car was a one owner) could go to the junkyard in later years to buy a 421 & find a matching casting series.


I don’t know t this has been a long thread blame me and Taylor, he started another post on the ringer lol


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

tDub said:


> Hello All, please correct me if Iḿ wrong; I have a convertable 66 4spd sitting on the back burner for about 10 years now. Had a machine shop redo the engine, and they informed me the car has a 421 I asked the mechanic who was doing the rebuild if the engine ever looked like it had been changed, and he told me not that he could tell. (that was about 15 years ago) I later replaced the clutch and had problems with Summit Racing (I think) because they had no listing for a gto with 421. I then started to do research, and found some literature about Pontiac running NASCAR Catalinas with 421s (I believe there is one or two valuable aluminum body models floating around somewhere). Anyway what I further discovered is that the 421 and 389 blocks are the same in that, intake, exhaust, etc can be interchanged. My car (here in Hawaii) was ordered from the dealer (i have the build sheet) with factory air. Now why would you need factory air in a convertable? Because at the same time the car was ordered, a 421 shortblock was ordered. GM would not allow an A body car to ship from the factory with a engine larger than 389 in 1966. (which may explain why they relented a litlle in 1967 due to competion with other car models, and shipped GTOs from the factory with a 400) Anyway, from what I have gathered, you walked into the Pontiac dealer, ordered your car with AC because an AC car has an oversized radiator, and at the same time ordered the 421 shortblock and paid the dealer for the swith out, so when the car arrived, the engine was yanked, exhaust intake accessories etc were switched to the 421 block and reinstalled in the car. When your car was delivered to you, you drove off the lot with a "dealer option" GTO with a 421, but the emblem badges were not changed, fakeing out any competitor in a stop light off the line challange. (unfortunatly the previous owner did not order power brakes which makes stopping interesting). Please update me if I have any of this wrong because I did spend hours of research trying to get to the bottom of why my car has a 421; btw the casting numbers on the block, exhaust & intake of of the same year series making unlikely the idea that someone (my car was a one owner) could go to the junkyard in later years to buy a 421 & find a matching casting series.


OK, I'll bite on this one.

The 1966 was the last year for the 389CI and the engine was upped to 400CI in 1967, so all GTO's came with the 400CI as factory engines beginning in 1967 and on up, with the 455CI being offered in 1970-73.

The 421CI, for quick ID, will have a large triangle shaped lug at the top/back of the block on the passenger side.

The A/C was an option and some people did install them on convertibles for those hot summer days. The A/C option did have the heavy duty radiator.

Not knowing what you documents state with regards to the 421CI, the engine could have been purchased as a complete 376HP tri-power engine, part # 9782545 for $826.00 plus a Completion Package part # 9784024 for $122.70 having all the needed parts to complete the engine such as pulleys, belts, fan, coil, starter, etc.. So the total package would cost $948.70.

But, from what you ask, yes, the 389CI and 421CI do share many parts. So, the next option is to purchase a 421CI block which would have been fitted with the pistons, pins, and rings, part # 97804022 for $245.45. Then the needed crankshaft, part # 9782279 for $99.10. Cost would be $344.55 for the needed purchase parts. The remainder of the parts needed to complete the 421CI would have come from the 389CI engine as it would have been stripped down and the parts transferred to the 421CI to create the complete and running engine. So the additional costs would have been labor for the disassembly of the 389, the assembly of the 421, removal/installation, and probably a few miscellaneous parts. Heads should be "093", with the heads and intake casting dates close to the date of the car's manufacture - which most say is typically within a month of the car's assembly date.

So this would be considered a dealer installed, or 421CI conversion, and not a factory option or factory installed engine as the 421 was not an option nor factory installed in a GTO. Your 421 should have a casting number and a casting date on it near the distributor with the casting date being very close to the date the car shows being sold by the dealer.

Does the engine have an engine code or Engine Unit Number (EUN) above the engine code. If the block was purchased through Pontiac, then my guess is that there will be no 2-letter engine code or EUN. You _*may find*_ the letter "P" stamped on the front of the block where the 2-letter engine code would have been. I enclosed a photo of my brother's 1967 400CI replacement block with the letter "P" stamped on it.

If in you documents you still have the metal Protect-O-Plate, it will have the engine's EUN as will the original billing history. 

So hope this helps. Very interesting car and with all your documents, makes this a unique documented dealer installed 421CI conversion of which is the first one I have heard of documented.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

Per the article it was a 80 Grand Am with a Trans Am 301 block (Stronger than a regular 301). And it was coffee not donuts that the supervisor bought everyone on the line. Great story in the March issue of Smoke signals.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

zzzz


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

O52 said:


> zzzz


Lol cricket chirp...cricket chirp...


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

Naw, I duplicated my post. My response when editing.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

O52 said:


> zzzz





pontrc said:


> Lol cricket chirp...cricket chirp...


Yep, that's just not as fun of a story. I'm happy for the guy that got the really nice car, but you know, 301.


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## tDub (May 6, 2018)

PontiacJim said:


> OK, I'll bite on this one.
> 
> The 1966 was the last year for the 389CI and the engine was upped to 400CI in 1967, so all GTO's came with the 400CI as factory engines beginning in 1967 and on up, with the 455CI being offered in 1970-73.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for all that info especially location of stamps & casting #; I need to check If I have the protect o plate and follow up on checking around the block for casting ID. I do have the owner manual, so maybe protecto is together. Back story on the aquistion, I had gone to a local body shop for some other business, and while waiting for an estimate, I noticed a car in the back of the lot with the hood up, and thought, gee that looks like the LeMans I was restoring, so I walked ovr to look at it and there sat the GTO, with primered hood and fender. So when talking to the owner I asked about it, he told me it was sitting there for 5 years, and before that was in the shop for 10 years. I told him I was restoring a 67 LeMans and could maybe use some parts. I asked why he had it so long. He told me the car was in a minor fender bender, and repaired. I asked if the owner owed him money; he said no he came in to pay for the damage, then never returned to pick up the car. I asked if I did all the paperwork if he would put a mechanic lein on the car, and then sell it to me; he thought about it and told it was taking up space and would like to see it gone. I asked him how much he would like, he responded I dont know. I asked if he would take $150.00 - to my shock he said OK. (the back taxes, and other costs to put it in my name was $850.00- so total $1000 for an unrestored 66 GTO convertable


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## 97851 (3 mo ago)

PontiacJim said:


> The race team cars in 1966 were 389CI, not 421. They used the XS code 389CI option which was the tri-power "ram air" version, close ratio 4-speeds, and 3.90/4.33 gears (I would have to check on the gearing to be correct). I believe that 421 use was said by Wangers in his book, and Milt Schornack in his book corrected that. No 421CI, or 428CI engines were factory installed. Any installation was dealer or owner. I don't think it would be possible to slip a 421 into a GTO at the factory. Quality control would have surely caught it, ie engine code/EUN, and no doubt the bean counters would not have allowed losing money on the higher priced 421. And being union factories, I am sure others would have to be in on the swap and I don't think anyone would be willing to chance getting fired at what these guys got paid. LOL


 I beg to differ with you. I owned a '66 GTO with a factory 421 4bbl Powerglide. The door badges were 6.9 liter instead of 6.4 liter for the 389 cars.


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## 97851 (3 mo ago)

PontiacJim said:


> The race team cars in 1966 were 389CI, not 421. They used the XS code 389CI option which was the tri-power "ram air" version, close ratio 4-speeds, and 3.90/4.33 gears (I would have to check on the gearing to be correct). I believe that 421 use was said by Wangers in his book, and Milt Schornack in his book corrected that.
> 
> No 421CI, or 428CI engines were factory installed. Any installation was dealer or owner. I don't think it would be possible to slip a 421 into a GTO at the factory. Quality control would have surely caught it, ie engine code/EUN, and no doubt the bean counters would not have allowed losing money on the higher priced 421. And being union factories, I am sure others would have to be in on the swap and I don't think anyone would be willing to chance getting fired at what these guys got paid. LOL


Sorry Jim. I owned a '66 GTO with a factory 421 4bbl Powerglide. The door badges were 6.9 liter rather than the 6.4 liter as on the 389 cars. Nothing could touch her. 2.73:1 rear gears. Big block and cast iron Powerglide is a recipe for winning. God, I lived that car (still do).


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

cfmatson said:


> Sorry Jim. I owned a '66 GTO with a factory 421 4bbl Powerglide. The door badges were 6.9 liter rather than the 6.4 liter as on the 389 cars. Nothing could touch her. 2.73:1 rear gears. Big block and cast iron Powerglide is a recipe for winning. God, I lived that car (still do).


GTO's never came with a factory 421 engine, and never, ever, came with Powerglide transmissions. Pontiac engines also were not technically big blocks. Sorry, cfmatson.


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## GTOJUNIOR (Aug 7, 2011)

Factory 421 BIG BLOCK 🤣 
WOW, these get better and better.
I guess since it's a factory build you could just post the PHS and we'll bow.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

cfmatson said:


> I beg to differ with you. I owned a '66 GTO with a factory 421 4bbl Powerglide. The door badges were 6.9 liter instead of 6.4 liter for the 389 cars.


Not a Powerglide. Pontiac 2-speed automatic transmissions were Super Turbine 300's. Completely different transmission from the chevy.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

This was an interesting read....more, more, more.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

BearGFR said:


> Not a Powerglide. Pontiac 2-speed automatic transmissions were Super Turbine 300's. Completely different transmission from the chevy.


I made that same point. That, and the '6.9' 'door' badges contribute to a story not based on any facts. Like tooling was made for 'special' 421 GTO's to have custom door badges. Also, no such thing as a 2.73 gear in an A body in '66. It would have been a 2.78. So we have: wrong 'big block' engine, Chevrolet transmission, wrong rear end, and one-off emblems. Right.

It's strange how if a myth or mistaken bit of information is perpetuated, how it becomes 'truth' as time goes on. I was reading a friends_ Poncho Perfection_ magazine, and in a Ram Air article, it showed a Ram Air set-up with the red Buick '400-4 Ram Air' sticker on it and was presented as original. Crazy stuff.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Funny thing is there were dealers that did these swaps day one. Yenko was well known on the Chevy side but they were far from the only one to do it. I worked in a garage through high school and college. We had a customer who owned a 1968 Firebird convertible that had a 428 that was swapped in before the car was sold new. He had all of the documentation about the car from when it had zero miles on it. VIN number on the car indicated that it was a 400 car.

The 421 GTO with the correct badges having the wrong engine size just doesn't make any sense. This reminds me a brand new member from a few years ago. Guy bought a very ratty 70 LeMans and was trying to claim it was a factory RAIV car because of a sticker on the air cleaner and a swapped GTO hood.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Yes, Royal Pontiac, Nickey Chevrolet, Motion Performance, etc. were all dealers in the day that, for a hefty fee, would remove your original 389 or 400 and install a warmed over 421 or 428. It was never done at the factory. The first 'big journal' engine in a Pontiac GTO was 1970, for the 455.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

geeteeohguy said:


> I made that same point. That, and the '6.9' 'door' badges contribute to a story not based on any facts. Like tooling was made for 'special' 421 GTO's to have custom door badges. Also, no such thing as a 2.73 gear in an A body in '66. It would have been a 2.78. So we have: wrong 'big block' engine, Chevrolet transmission, wrong rear end, and one-off emblems. Right.


There are myths/legends about how "back in the day" when someone who worked at one of the assembly plants had bought a GTO that was being built there, whenever the car and engine came together "on the line" it just so happened that a 'mistake' had been made and the 'wrong' engine showed up for the car. They couldn't just stop the line to correct the problem.

I have no idea if the story is true, but it makes a good legend.

A former neighbor of mine had a black '67 4-speed car with a tri-power that he adamantly swore was original despite what "we all know". I'm guessing most likely it had actually been dealer installed.

In some ways, all these stories are actually pretty cool. Very often whenever I have mine out for a local cruise or some show, someone will stop by with a story about a GTO they used to have, or a friend had, or that they knew about. They've been the telling it for so long that the car has attained near mythical/magical status - fastest car in the state, was never beaten on the street, could carry the front wheels for city blocks, the "dollar bill" story, etc. I don't argue, I just nod and smile. I kinda figure it's all just part of the legendary status about GTO's that persist even to the present day.

Bear


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## 97851 (3 mo ago)

geeteeohguy said:


> GTO's never came with a factory 421 engine, and never, ever, came with Powerglide transmissions. Pontiac engines also were not technically big blocks. Sorry, cfmatson.


Did not realize that Pontiac engines were not "technically" big blocks. Live and learn. So, the 455 is actually what? I'm curious now.
Someone did a fine job of installing the Powerglide in the '66 I owned. The center console shifter was a vertical handle with a button on top. Gear selector indicator lit up with running lights. The lid for the compartment opened with a push button. Console ran from dash to between the bucket seats. Wood trim at front of console matched the dash. Wasn't the first two-speed automatic I had owned.
I do wish the friend I got the car from was still alive so we could unravel the mystery. The only clue he ever gave me was his statement; "Don't let that engine get away from you."
But, Alas, I was young and dumb (1977).
Now? Well, I'm older and getting educated here.
By the way. I accept the fact that I don't know all there is to know. I am a retired mechanic (Auto Tech) so have some knowledge. When pulling the rear axle out of that Tan Goat to stuff under another '66, I did read the tag. No doubt my memory's not as sharp as it used to be, so no surprise if the ratio wasn't 2.73:1. I can state with authority it was very tall gears for that deep blue 4-speed car. I pulled the Muncie M20 out of a '73 vette to put in it. Used a vette disc between the clutch cover and flywheel. Engine came from the Tan Goat also. Went through a few clutches. Oh. Tan '66 came without power brakes. Senseless IMHO.


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## 97851 (3 mo ago)

cfmatson said:


> Did not realize that Pontiac engines were not "technically" big blocks. Live and learn. So, the 455 is actually what? I'm curious now.
> Someone did a fine job of installing the Powerglide in the '66 I owned. The center console shifter was a vertical handle with a button on top. Gear selector indicator lit up with running lights. The lid for the compartment opened with a push button. Console ran from dash to between the bucket seats. Wood trim at front of console matched the dash. Wasn't the first two-speed automatic I had owned.
> I do wish the friend I got the car from was still alive so we could unravel the mystery. The only clue he ever gave me was his statement; "Don't let that engine get away from you."
> But, Alas, I was young and dumb (1977).
> ...


Aha! Super Turbine 300 two speed automatic, not Powerglide. I'm learning...


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

cfmatson said:


> Did not realize that Pontiac engines were not "technically" big blocks. Live and learn. So, the 455 is actually what? I'm curious now.


chevy, Ford, and Chrysler "big block" vs. "small block" refers to the physical external size of the engines, not the cubic inch displacement. There was a chevy 400 'small block', and the 396 was a 'big block'. 

In the case of Pontiac, all V8's were "one size fits all" - they were all dimensionally the same on the outside. If I were to take a "Strato Streak" 247 out of a '55 Chieftain and set it on my shop floor next to a 326 or 350 out of a Lemans, a 400 out of a '67-up GTO, and a 455 out of a 75 Trans Am, you'd see that they're all exactly the same size. Telling one from another requires looking at details such as the number of bolts on the water pump, how the starter is mounted, looking up and interpreting the various casting numbers and stampings on them, etc.

So, there's no such thing as a Pontiac "big block", and there's no such thing as a Pontiac "small block" - they're all the same size on the outside.

Internally, it's a different story. Of course they differ in bore and stroke dimensions but also in the diameter of the crankshaft main bearing journals. 421/428/455 all have 3.25" mains and are collectively referred to as "large journal" blocks. All others, including 326/350/389/400 have 3.00" mains and are referred to as 'small journal' blocks. 

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

cfmatson said:


> Did not realize that Pontiac engines were not "technically" big blocks. Live and learn. So, the 455 is actually what? I'm curious now.
> Someone did a fine job of installing the Powerglide in the '66 I owned. The center console shifter was a vertical handle with a button on top. Gear selector indicator lit up with running lights. The lid for the compartment opened with a push button. Console ran from dash to between the bucket seats. Wood trim at front of console matched the dash. Wasn't the first two-speed automatic I had owned.
> I do wish the friend I got the car from was still alive so we could unravel the mystery. The only clue he ever gave me was his statement; "Don't let that engine get away from you."
> But, Alas, I was young and dumb (1977).
> ...


There would be two tags on the rear axle assembly of a '66 GTO: a paper one with two letters on it, which, when referenced in the factory manual, would tell you the gear ratio, brake package, and limited slip or open status. The other was a small aluminum tag mounted at about 4 o'clock that said 'Limited Slip Gear Oil Only' if it were a Safe-T-Track. If it was a standard 'open' rear, it would have no tags. The only way to 'read the tag and get a ratio' would be if you had the manual in your hand or had all the codes memorized. (some here do, no doubt!) I've owned and driven these cars in mild California since the '70's and have never seen an intact paper tag, even when the cars were 10-15 years old. Your '66 likely had a swapped in 'big car' 421, the original ST300 trans (very strong unit) and a 2.78 rear gear, which would be undetectable from a 2.73 when driven. In 1981, when working for a repair shop, one of our customers was an old guy with a Cameo Ivory '64 GTO. Red interior, 4 speed, tripower. It had a 421 and 421 emblems mounted on it from a 2+2. He said he'd put the engine in years and years before, after blowing up the original 389. That car ran VERY, VERY hard!!


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

cfmatson said:


> Did not realize that Pontiac engines were not "technically" big blocks. Live and learn. So, the 455 is actually what? I'm curious now.
> Someone did a fine job of installing the Powerglide in the '66 I owned. The center console shifter was a vertical handle with a button on top. Gear selector indicator lit up with running lights. The lid for the compartment opened with a push button. Console ran from dash to between the bucket seats. Wood trim at front of console matched the dash. Wasn't the first two-speed automatic I had owned.
> I do wish the friend I got the car from was still alive so we could unravel the mystery. The only clue he ever gave me was his statement; "Don't let that engine get away from you."
> But, Alas, I was young and dumb (1977).
> ...


It's all good. A lot of folks mistake Chevy options for the other A body platforms. It's just the lingo most are used to hearing. Options on a lot of the cars back then were a bit odd. Mine came factory with power steering but no power brakes. Had manual drums on the front when I got it. I had a buddy years ago who owned a 67Buick GS 400 with a 4 speed. That car had really tall rear gears. Like 80 mph shifting out of second tall.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Jared said:


> It's all good. A lot of folks mistake Chevy options for the other A body platforms. It's just the lingo most are used to hearing. Options on a lot of the cars back then were a bit odd. Mine came factory with power steering but no power brakes. Had manual drums on the front when I got it. I had a buddy years ago who owned a 67Buick GS 400 with a 4 speed. That car had really tall rear gears. Like 80 mph shifting out of second tall.


I think many of us 'old' guys have experienced cars with swappage (thanks, Vice Grip Garage!). In the early '80's a friend had a '65 GTO with a 2.56 rear he swapped in when the 3.55's blew up. I drove the car, and first gear was good for over 60 mph. Hard on clutches, but when he relocated from CA to MO, he called and said he got 23 mpg at 60 mph! FWIW, the lowest numerical rear gear Pontiac (and most other GM makes) would go with a stick trans was 3.08. The 2.93, 2.78, and 2.56 were just too tall to get out of the hole without a lot of clutch. 
One Chevy term everybody uses is Positraction. Pontiac calls it Safety Track, other brands have Sure Grip, Trac Loc, Limited Slip, Equa-Trac, and on and on.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

cfmatson said:


> Sorry Jim. I owned a '66 GTO with a factory 421 4bbl Powerglide. The door badges were 6.9 liter rather than the 6.4 liter as on the 389 cars. Nothing could touch her. 2.73:1 rear gears. Big block and cast iron Powerglide is a recipe for winning. God, I lived that car (still do).


No need to add to your incorrect statement as others here have set you straight. The only other car to use the metric "Litre" engine designation was the 1966 Ford having the 428 CI. The emblems were not used in 1967.

There was no 6.9 litre factory emblem on a Pontiac - ever.


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## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

BearGFR said:


> Internally, it's a different story. Of course they differ in bore and stroke dimensions but also in the diameter of the crankshaft main bearing journals. 421/428/455 all have 3.25" mains and are collectively referred to as "large journal" blocks. All others, including 326/350/389/400 have 3.00" mains and are referred to as 'small journal' blocks.
> 
> Bear


I think this is where a lot of confusion stems from. In all my years when talking with folks in the field that are familiar with the topic, we'd refer to 421/428/455 as "Pontiac big block" and the others as "small block Pontiac". We all knew what we meant, but a lot didn't I'm sure.


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## 97851 (3 mo ago)

Jared said:


> It's all good. A lot of folks mistake Chevy options for the other A body platforms. It's just the lingo most are used to hearing. Options on a lot of the cars back then were a bit odd. Mine came factory with power steering but no power brakes. Had manual drums on the front when I got it. I had a buddy years ago who owned a 67Buick GS 400 with a 4 speed. That car had really tall rear gears. Like 80 mph shifting out of second tall.



"It's all good"
Very much appreciate your forgiving attitude.
Thank you. I know a bit, but there's always more to learn. Am I ever learning fast right here.
2.73:1? Nope 2.78:1 !!
Made for very "long legs" in my 4sp car.
55 in first was pushing it, yes 75 to 80 in second.
110 in third and the engine had more. I didn't.
Who knows what 4th would do. Don't feel like doing the math.
26mpg on a road trip.
This was all back in the late 70's when I was in my mind 20's. And don't feel like doing the math on that either.


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## 97851 (3 mo ago)

BearGFR said:


> chevy, Ford, and Chrysler "big block" vs. "small block" refers to the physical external size of the engines, not the cubic inch displacement. There was a chevy 400 'small block', and the 396 was a 'big block'.
> 
> In the case of Pontiac, all V8's were "one size fits all" - they were all dimensionally the same on the outside. If I were to take a "Strato Streak" 247 out of a '55 Chieftain and set it on my shop floor next to a 326 or 350 out of a Lemans, a 400 out of a '67-up GTO, and a 455 out of a 75 Trans Am, you'd see that they're all exactly the same size. Telling one from another requires looking at details such as the number of bolts on the water pump, how the starter is mounted, looking up and interpreting the various casting numbers and stampings on them, etc.
> 
> ...


Thank you Bear 🐻
Good info.
Live & learn....


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## 97851 (3 mo ago)

PontiacJim said:


> No need to add to your incorrect statement as others here have set you straight. The only other car to use the metric "Litre" engine designation was the 1966 Ford having the 428 CI. The emblems were not used in 1967.
> 
> There was no 6.9 litre factory emblem on a Pontiac - ever.
> 
> ...


Then my question to you is.
Then where did the badges on the front fenders and interior door panels come from? They clearly indicate GTO and 6.9 Litre below it.
I would post photos but am not a high dollar member.
Social Security Sucks.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

cfmatson said:


> Then my question to you is.
> Then where did the badges on the front fenders and interior door panels come from? They clearly indicate GTO and 6.9 Litre below it.
> I would post photos but am not a high dollar member.
> Social Security Sucks.


Uhm. Look closer at that badge. That's a 5 my friend.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Jared said:


> Uhm. Look closer at that badge. That's a 5 my friend.


Yep. He's probably seen it as a '9' for 45 years and doesn't really 'see' it. Automatic. 
Sort of like one day in the late 90's when a friend put on a Brewer and Shipley album and 'One Toke Over The Line' came on. My 25 years of assuming it was the Grateful Dead---smashed to pieces!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

cfmatson said:


> View attachment 158087
> 
> View attachment 158086
> 
> ...


As pointed out, that is clearly a "5", as in 6.5 Litre - 389 Cubic Inch. Sometimes we simply want to see what we want to see. Man, I wish I had your perception with my last relationship. I'd be able to see a perfectly shaped big boobed 21 year old hottie and not a 70 year old woman.


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## 97851 (3 mo ago)

geeteeohguy said:


> Yep. He's probably seen it as a '9' for 45 years and doesn't really 'see' it. Automatic.
> Sort of like one day in the late 90's when a friend put on a Brewer and Shipley album and 'One Toke Over The Line' came on. My 25 years of assuming it was the Grateful Dead---smashed to pieces!


I am out of here.
Not here for your abusive entertainment.
I can receive the same level of disrespect anywhere in daily life.
It is sad when the only way a person can elevate themselves is by putting others below them.


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