# valve tapping



## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

I know it's bad, i know it's a sign the engine might be "wearing out" and i know it could be something relatively simple. so...what do you guys recommend? little bit of marvel mystery oil until i can do an engine rebuild?


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Readjust the valves, could be just a lock nut backed off a little.


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## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

any torque spec on that or just feel it out?


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

I think its 20 lbs, but make sure the rocker is on the flat part of the cam, why, I don't know. Seems like if the car isn't running, then it will bleed off all excess oil prior to start up. If it's a posi lock, loosen the lock, start the car with oil clips on the rockers, turn it down til it stops ticking, then go 1/4 to 1/2 turn and lock posi lock down. Done, put cover back on and enjoy. If you tighten it and float the valve-miss, before the ticking stops, or as it stops, then yours is like mine and needs a lifter, but mine was a dead cam lobe. My visual clue was the pushrod wasn't turning while running, because the lifter bottom was ate up and not rotating.


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## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

good detail. thanks! :cheers
need to get a gasket ordered but i'll be diving in on this sometime this week.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

I don't want to re-visit the can of worms and words about an anti-gall supplement but you ARE using it despite the rumor that's it's black magic, right ? Non-mineral enriched, off the shelf oil, will ruin a cam in short order.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Too Many Projects said:


> I don't want to re-visit the can of worms and words about an anti-gall supplement but you ARE using it despite the rumor that's it's black magic, right ? Non-mineral enriched, off the shelf oil, will ruin a cam in short order.


So, what is break in oil? Diesel oil does/does not have it? I thought the additives were for solid cams, not hydraulics? But, if lifters are going bad this quick, I guess anything will help.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

jetstang said:


> So, what is break in oil? Diesel oil does/does not have it? I thought the additives were for solid cams, not hydraulics? But, if lifters are going bad this quick, I guess anything will help.


The extra additive is for flat tappet cams (solid and hydraulic), and not required for roller type cams. Valvoline racing 20-50 has it, it's all I run.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Rukee said:


> The extra additive is for flat tappet cams (solid and hydraulic), and not required for roller type cams. Valvoline racing 20-50 has it, it's all I run.


Cool, but I've heard racing oils are non-detergent as the motors come apart so often? I guess you can throw some marvils mystery oil in there to clean.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

I wouldn't. Been running my motor for more then 16 yrs and it's clean as a whistle under the valve covers.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Most of the oils had the zinc and other metals removed a few years ago and they are what protects the cam/lifter surfaces. Diesel oil has had the metals removed also, so is not a good alternative. There are oils that retain the metals, as Rukee states, but you need to read them to be sure and they are SPENDY. I use Mobil organic with a bottle of ZDDP at all times, not just break-in as was initially believed.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Rukee said:


> I wouldn't. Been running my motor for more then 16 yrs and it's clean as a whistle under the valve covers.


Yeah, but you're not a rookie rukee, he he. Your motor is fresh, you don't do the short drives, winter abuse, change oil regularly. The 70 350 I'm putting in my Lemans was taken out at 100k in 80, and I didn't even have to clean anything inside of it, clean as a whistle, proper maintenance goes along way. I did have the heads redone, hardened seats and freshened.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Too Many Projects said:


> Most of the oils had the zinc and other metals removed a few years ago and they are what protects the cam/lifter surfaces. Diesel oil has had the metals removed also, so is not a good alternative. There are oils that retain the metals, as Rukee states, but you need to read them to be sure and they are SPENDY. I use Mobil organic with a bottle of ZDDP at all times, not just break-in as was initially believed.


Organic= non-synthetic.
Where do you get ZDDP? as I need some, well, alot.


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

You can't buy it off the shelf. Here's a couple of places. You can google it too.

ZDDPlus™ -* Distributors - ZDDP Additive for Classic Cars - Agricultural Equipment & More

Here's their main website:

ZDDPlus™ - ZDDP Additive for Classic Cars - Agricultural Equipment & More


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Great info.
So, .667 ounce for break in, so a 4 ounce bottle will get you about 7 oil changes, or more. I'm ordering tonight!


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

Yearone has it too. All suppliers seem to sell it for the same price.

YearOne Online Shopping

I haven't verified, but it's my understanding 1 4oz bottle per oil change....

Just verified, 1 bottle per oil change.........
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
YearOne GTO Catalog: Restoration and Performance Parts
Building American Muscle. Backed by our unequalled "No-Sweat Return Policy." 
GTO » Engine » Oiling » Engine Oil Supplements » ZD77 

In recent years, the oil additive known as ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate), has been removed because it causes catalytic converter failure over time. Similar to what happened with leaded gasoline. Most cars still on the road with converters have roller lifters which do not need ZDDP for protection. 

If your engine was designed prior to the 1990s, your non-roller lifters require ZDDP in your motor oil to avoid premature deterioration.

Don't let your lifters run metal-to-metal. Keep ZDDP, via ZddPlus, in your motor oil.Part # Description Price Add to Cart 
ZD77 ZddPlus oil supplement, 4-oz. $9.95 


*Add the 4 fluid ounce contents of this ZddPlus bottle at every 4 to 5 quart oil change.*


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## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

I have it in there, along with a bottle of lucasoil and castrol high mileage 10-30. I think the tapping's been with the car since i got it, just went un-noticed because of an exhaust leak i just had fixed. now that i can hear the tapping, it's gotta get fixed. here's hoping it's as simple as an adjustment...


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Maybe there using it as assembly lube, but as stated below, .6 more than enough for assembly? Who's snowing who here? Or the Zpaste isn't liquid form as the bottle is, paste versus liquid.
One tear-pack of ZPaste (*0.625 ounce and 17.72 grams) is more than enough for engine assembly on one engine.* See Tech Brief #12 at: ZDDPlus™ - ZDDP Additive for Classic Cars - Agricultural Equipment & More for details. California State Sales Tax = 8.75% 

As for your tick, I hope it's just an adjustment, mine wasn't and look at me now, engine is back in, but damn. Mine has ticked the whole time I owned it and the cam lobes were flattened a lot, but not gone and I didn't have a miss, but did have a stumble in the carb i couldn't work out, sluggish throttle response, may of been it.


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## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

guy here at work recommended tightening up the nut while the engine's running. he's definitely worked on his share of cars. this a bright idea or the ramblings of a senile old man?


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

Red Line Oil 81403 Red Line Engine Break-In Additive


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

xcmac26 said:


> guy here at work recommended tightening up the nut while the engine's running. he's definitely worked on his share of cars. this a bright idea or the ramblings of a senile old man?


Can't hurt. Possibly the nut has backed off over time or the lifter has worn a little. Either way the ticking may well quit. Unless he has the clips to put over the rocker arms, be ready for an oil bath.

Eastwood had ZDDP on clearnace for ~ $5 ~ bottle a short time ago. I got 24 bottles .... I run a full bottle with 5 quarts of non-synthetic Mobil. The paste is for break in only.


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## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

i was definitely wondering how to shield against the oil splash. don't think i have much of a choice but to turn the engine by hand to get the piston at TDC or slap on some coveralls and get messy. how much oil sling are we talking here? cover the fender? bear in mind i do have lucas in there so hopefully it'll stick a little better.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

It's going to fly all over. Do you have an old set or even 1 old valve cover? You can cut a slot down the center to adjust the nuts and hold the oil slinging back.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

These clips are what you need. Made by Mr. Gasket part number 1015. Hopefully a local car store has them.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Too Many Projects said:


> These clips are what you need. Made by Mr. Gasket part number 1015. Hopefully a local car store has them.


Yep, those are the clips you need. I have a set that has a plastic piece that goes in the oil hole, and wires hold it on the rocker, samey same. Oil may still drip a little, but without these clips it will shoot the wall when you back the nut off. Almost all parts stores have them, or used to.


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## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

will these do the trick? Wilmar W80565 - Oil Plug Set | O'Reilly Auto Parts


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

xcmac26 said:


> will these do the trick? Wilmar W80565 - Oil Plug Set | O'Reilly Auto Parts


I haven't used that style but I think that's the kind Jetstang referred to. They should work if you can't get the clip style.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

xcmac26 said:


> will these do the trick? Wilmar W80565 - Oil Plug Set | O'Reilly Auto Parts


Yep, those are the ones I got, I like the metal ones better, you don't have to fiddle f#ck around with them trying to get the tit in the hole, but they work good.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

jetstang said:


> Yep, those are the ones I got, I like the metal ones better, you don't have to fiddle f#ck around with them trying to get the tit in the hole, but they work good.


Just don't rev the motor with them on!!!


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## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

well now i just need to find the time to get the work done


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

xcmac26 said:


> well now i just need to find the time to get the work done


I know............you're too busy being chased by all the hot, young, wimmins........:rofl:


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## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

it gets tiring after a while, eventually i just give up and let them in :lol:

seriously though, i'll have to get a shot on a trip to the beach with a few of the ladies in my ride, if only to suspend your disbelief. I'll go for bikini tops. would that work for you?


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

I love it when you pull up and they come over in their bikini to the car and bend over to look inside!
What can I say, I'm a perv!


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## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

nope, you're a perfectly normal human male :cheers


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

xcmac26 said:


> it gets tiring after a while, eventually i just give up and let them in :lol:
> 
> seriously though, i'll have to get a shot on a trip to the beach with a few of the ladies in my ride, if only to suspend your disbelief. I'll go for bikini tops. would that work for you?



JUST the TOPS ??............

works for me...........

just another old perv....:cheers


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Rukee said:


> I love it when you pull up and they come over in their bikini to the car and bend over to look inside!
> What can I say, I'm a perv!


Too much time hanging out at the A&W in Portage waiting for the hot chickies coming back from Devils Lake and the Dells...:cheers


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## GroundHog (Oct 16, 2009)

what do you guys think of this? this is what i used last oil change, since i couldn't wait to order the ZDDP (still plan on getting some, though). 

hy-per lube - zinc addative


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Valvoline Racing 20w-50 has it. It's all I run in the GTO.


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## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

well i finally got around to popping off the valve cover and checking things out. first and foremost, all the rocker nuts were nice and snug. Guy helping me out (actually used to assemble GTO's up in michigan, very cool guy) suggested backing off all the nuts then snugging them back up. tried that, still tapping. sooo... what kind of damage are we talking here?


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Does it do it all the time? Or only until it's warmed up?


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

How many were ticking?
Were the pushrods turning on the ticking rocker?
Was there a lot or a little oil getting to the rockers?

Both my ticking lifter had bad cam lobes, pushrods didn't rotate because base of lifter was ate up. Low oil pressure to valvetrain caused the wear on mine, I ran my car with the valve covers off and oil didn't squirt out, although had 30 PSI on gauge.
If your lifters just torque down, you may be able to use posi locks to get more adjustment, tighten them up a little more.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Rukee said:


> Does it do it all the time? Or only until it's warmed up?


And were you able to determine which one, or more, are ticking ?? Did he suggest checking the ball and arm of that one for wear while you were there? I didn't think of that until now but I have seen that in the distant past too. It's possible it may just be one bad lifter and you could just change it but that involves removal of the intake and valley pan (push rod cover when looking for the gasket..).


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Too Many Projects said:


> (push rod cover when looking for the gasket..).


TMP, you are the man, this is from Autozone. You have to order it, so do that up front.
Felpro / Pushrod Cover Gasket Part Number:
PS50045C 
Price:$4.99
Notes: Cork rubber


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

Rukee said:


> Does it do it all the time? Or only until it's warmed up?


What would that indicate? Sticky lifter?


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## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

tapping is always present, or i think it is, can't hear it on the highway, noticeable at low speeds and RPM. there was mild tapping noticeable when i put my ear to a screwdriver on the nut of most of the rockers, but nothing like the one that made me sit up and notice it tapping in the first place. I can't say whether the rods were rotating or not because i wasn't looking for it. Can't say how much oil's getting up there since I had the plugs in place, but everything was nice and wet when i pulled the cover off.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

xcmac26 said:


> tapping is always present, or i think it is, can't hear it on the highway, noticeable at low speeds and RPM. there was mild tapping noticeable when i put my ear to a screwdriver on the nut of most of the rockers, but nothing like the one that made me sit up and notice it tapping in the first place. I can't say whether the rods were rotating or not because i wasn't looking for it. Can't say how much oil's getting up there since I had the plugs in place, but everything was nice and wet when i pulled the cover off.


OK, sounds like you have the noisy one isolated. Cheap, easy, test/fix. Pull the cover and nut again. Find a flat washer that is the same diameter as the pivot ball and drill the hole to slip over the stud. When you tighten the nut, the washer will push the ball deeper on the stud and relocate the lifter piston. If the clicking goes away and the engine runs smooth, drive it till you're ready for the overhaul. If it still clicks and/or the engine seems to miss, the lifter may be collapsed and needs replacing. I'm thinking it's just a normal wear issue and since the rockers aren't adjustable to compensate, the washer may do the trick.


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## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

washer above rocker and below nut...right?


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

xcmac26 said:


> washer above rocker and below nut...right?


Right under the nut, on top of the pivot ball.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

68greengoat said:


> What would that indicate? Sticky lifter?


I'm not really sure. I've been kinda chasing this on my car too. I have a what sounds like a valve noise just until it reaches temp, then it's gone and runs perfect. I've done cam and lifter, valve job and still have the noise. On one of the heads the push rod guides are home made. I'd like to come up with another set of guide plates, rocker arms and push rods as that's about the only things that haven't been swapped. I bought a set of 1.6 ratio roller tip rocker arms but they suck the push rods in too far so they contact with the head, can't run them.
The machine shop I use suggested it may be a broken piston, which I have seen in the car when I bought it, but I replaced the pistons with forged units, can't imagine it happening again, it uses no oil and doesn't smoke like it did when I got it with the broken piston.


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

Rukee said:


> I'm not really sure. I've been kinda chasing this on my car too. I have a what sounds like a valve noise just until it reaches temp, then it's gone and runs perfect. I've done cam and lifter, valve job and still have the noise. On one of the heads the push rod guides are home made. I'd like to come up with another set of guide plates, rocker arms and push rods as that's about the only things that haven't been swapped. I bought a set of 1.6 ratio roller tip rocker arms but they suck the push rods in too far so they contact with the head, can't run them.
> The machine shop I use suggested it may be a broken piston, which I have seen in the car when I bought it, but I replaced the pistons with forged units, can't imagine it happening again, it uses no oil and doesn't smoke like it did when I got it with the broken piston.


That's why I was asking, I have the issue you have. Relatively noisy on startup, but settles down after I drive a little. I would think a bad piston would be causing more issues. I don't burn oil either, just leak a bunch! I haven't looked into it yet.. Maybe when Steve figures out his issue, it will help us figure out ours.....


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## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

no pressure... :rofl:


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

I assume if the noise stops when oil pressure builds or after warm up then it's just a weak lifter.
Rukee, if your pushrods went to far in and hit your heads, coulnd't you just get longer pushrods to fix the valvetrain geometry? I know that my 66 389 rockers DO NOT work on my 70 350, they did the same thing, but don't look that different.
No rotation of the pushrod is CRITICAL in this, as you may have a ate up lifter, and swapping it out now may save the camshaft, or not. Or you may be doing a cam swap. Even with clips on the oil should fill the lifter and start slinging some oil.
If I had a tick, and I did, I would change the rocker nuts to posi stops and see if I can adjust the tick out of it, something may just be worn beyond the travel of the piston in the hydraulic lifter, and another 1/2 turn may take out the tick.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

jetstang said:


> I assume if the noise stops when oil pressure builds or after warm up then it's just a weak lifter.
> *Rukee, if your pushrods went to far in and hit your heads, coulnd't you just get longer pushrods to fix the valvetrain geometry?* I know that my 66 389 rockers DO NOT work on my 70 350, they did the same thing, but don't look that different.
> No rotation of the pushrod is CRITICAL in this, as you may have a ate up lifter, and swapping it out now may save the camshaft, or not. Or you may be doing a cam swap. Even with clips on the oil should fill the lifter and start slinging some oil.
> If I had a tick, and I did, I would change the rocker nuts to posi stops and see if I can adjust the tick out of it, something may just be worn beyond the travel of the piston in the hydraulic lifter, and another 1/2 turn may take out the tick.


The 1.6 ratio rockers move the push rod closer to the center pivot point on the rocker, doing that moves the push rod closer to the rocker stud, too close as the push rods hit/contact the head. Longer push rods will not change the distance between the rocker stud and the push rods. I would need to make room in the head by either machining that side of the push rod holes or drilling the holes out to a larger size. With the water jacket in there somewhere I didn't wanna risk it. I would imagine they fit some Pontiac heads, just not the ones I have.
And you can't just crank down the rockers another 1/2 turn as there is only 1 full turn of adjustment available, tighten them too much and yes the ticking may go away, but the valve will be hanging open and it won't take anytime to blow the seats and valves out of the heads.


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## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

Rukee said:


> And you can't just crank down the rockers another 1/2 turn as there is only 1 full turn of adjustment available, tighten them too much and yes the ticking may go away, but the valve will be hanging open and it won't take anytime to blow the seats and valves out of the heads.



so i've potentially overtightened the rocker nut? or is the 1/2 turn tied to the posi-stops?


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Rukee said:


> The 1.6 ratio rockers move the push rod closer to the center pivot point on the rocker, doing that moves the push rod closer to the rocker stud, too close as the push rods hit/contact the head. Longer push rods will not change the distance between the rocker stud and the push rods. I would need to make room in the head by either machining that side of the push rod holes or drilling the holes out to a larger size. With the water jacket in there somewhere I didn't wanna risk it. I would imagine they fit some Pontiac heads, just not the ones I have.
> And you can't just crank down the rockers another 1/2 turn as there is only 1 full turn of adjustment available, tighten them too much and yes the ticking may go away, but the valve will be hanging open and it won't take anytime to blow the seats and valves out of the heads.


Interesting that you brought that up now. I am considering the 1.6 rockers for my Camaro to enhance the mild cam a little. My heads do have elongated push rod slots but may not be enough either, as they aren't performance heads. Now I'll be reading more about this on engine/performance sites to see if anyone has the rockers on the same heads.....

I don't think the heads he has are adjustable for lifter wear. You just tighten the nut down till it bottoms on the stud and it's all supposed to work. That's why I suggested the washer to act like it was adjustable and move the rocker ball down to move the lifter piston lower in the lifter body. If it misses on start up, the lifter is holding the valve open and needs to be removed.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

I've adjusted mine several times and they are NOT just bottomed out on the studs. They are ment to be adjustable, unlike a newer say 3.8-3.4L GM which DOES have a zero valve adjustment and you bottom the nut right down on the stud.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Rukee said:


> I've adjusted mine several times and they are NOT just bottomed out on the studs. They are ment to be adjustable, unlike a newer say 3.8-3.4L GM which DOES have a zero valve adjustment and you bottom the nut right down on the stud.


Yes, but he's got a run-of-the-mill 350, not a high performance 389. I should do some refresher reading but I thought they weren't adjustable. 
I'll get back to ya on that....


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

OK, I just looked this up. It's official..............no adjustment. "Rocker arm is correctly positioned when the nut is torqued to 20 lbs. ft."


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Too Many Projects said:


> OK, I just looked this up. It's official..............*no adjustment.* "Rocker arm is correctly positioned when the nut is torqued to 20 lbs. ft."


Tightening them to 20lbs ft is adjusting them!!
I don't agree with that method as some (even brand new) nuts are just harder to turn then others.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

xcmac26 said:


> so i've potentially overtightened the rocker nut? or is the 1/2 turn tied to the posi-stops?


I thought the posi stops would buy you more adjustment, but looking at the factory nuts, the bottom 1/8" isn't threaded, so it should push the rocker beyond the bottom of the threads, thus farther than a posi stop can.

Rukee, if you float the valve when the ticking stops, this tells you that your lifter isn't pumping up, as mine wasn't, it will help troubleshoot, no you cant run it like that. I hear what you are saying about the rockers, like I said, between my 66 and 70 motor, the rockers are different because they moved the valve location on the later heads, yeah, just figured it out. Thus allowing larger valves, 2.11"... Change came 66 to 67, 389 to 400...


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

jetstang said:


> I thought the posi stops would buy you more adjustment, but looking at the factory nuts, the bottom 1/8" isn't threaded, so it should push the rocker beyond the bottom of the threads, thus farther than a posi stop can.
> 
> *Rukee, if you float the valve when the ticking stops, this tells you that your lifter isn't pumping up, as mine wasn't, it will help troubleshoot, no you cant run it like that.* I hear what you are saying about the rockers, like I said, between my 66 and 70 motor, the rockers are different because they moved the valve location on the later heads, yeah, just figured it out. Thus allowing larger valves, 2.11"... Change came 66 to 67, 389 to 400...


Not sure what you're talking about. The valves only "float" at high rpm when the springs can't keep up and the rocker is opening the valve again before it's closed, I've never floated the valves. Mine only ticks slightly until it reaches normal opperating temp. I replaced the cam and lifters, did the valve job and installed new valves and springs and still have the same issue. Once warm it runs perfect with no noise.


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## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

cold parts contract creating gaps that are filled when the engine warms and expands?


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Right, but why are 15 of those parts not making noise and just 1 is, even after changing all those parts and multiple valve adjustments?

And I've been doing valve adjustments this way for decades and even when assembling a motor from new parts, they fire right up and run great and don't rattle or make noise at all when cold. So if it's not the valve adjustment, and it's not the lifters or springs, what else is left but the rockers push rods and guide plates?


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

is it always the same one making the noise even after you have changed parts and multiple adjustments?


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

I can't ever find which one is making the noise. I try to adjust them cold running, but can't find it by the time it warms up and is gone on it's own. Frustrating.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Rukee said:


> Not sure what you're talking about. The valves only "float" at high rpm when the springs can't keep up and the rocker is opening the valve again before it's closed, QUOTE]
> I'm talking about adjusting out the tick, if it floats when the tick stops it means you just turned a hydraulic valve into a solid by bottoming out the piston in the lifter bore, thus telling you the lifter is not pumping up. A cold tick may be a restricted oil port, ie. oil is too thick to pump up the lifter, when the oil thins it can get through the restricted port and the lifter works as normal.


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