# new oil pan?!



## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

Hi!

I'm about to rebuild the engine and today I cleaned the oil pan. I guess it's a Canton 15-389, 5quarts plus filter (5.5quarts System capacity).

Now would I have some big benefits if I buy a little bigger one? There is one that will fit my 66 GTO from Canton and Milodon, both can hold about 1 quart more than before.

The new stroke is 4.25" and I use the stock windage tray and a Melling pump with 60psi. I think there will be no clearance issues with both pans.

Now should I get a 8" deep (instead of 7" deep) pan and buy a new pickup and tube just to have 1 quart more oil? Rpm's will stay below 6000 all the time and oil changes are made every year or 2000 miles.
The old pan looks fine.. it's baffled and in good condition.

Thank you!

Chris


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Hey Chris,
I'm running one of the Milodon pans with the angled side kickout. I like it. With a filter change and everything, 9 quarts puts it back to the full mark on the dipstick. (Yeah, I know the specs on this pan say it holds 7 quarts plus filter.) I'm also using one of their pickups that bolts to the oil pump. No worries about the pickup falling off for me... 
The one down side of this pan is that you pretty much have to run some sort of mini-starter unless you're willing to sign up for having to remove the header on that side to get the starter in and out.

The main benefit (for me) of having more oil in the system is that it helps keep oil temps down. The second primary job of engine oil, after lubrication of course, is cooling.

Here's what I'm running:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MIL-30355/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MIL-18425/

Bear


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

Thank you Bear!
I like this combination, maybe I should get it as well! The lubrication (below 6000rpm) will be good with my old pan?! 
Its very hard to impossible to change the pan later with the engine in the car so I have to decide now.. but I already spent too much so I try to figure out if it "has to be changed" or if I dont run any risks with the old pan as long as I dont abuse the GTO more than I should


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Chris, you should be just fine with the factory setup you already have. The advantage of having more oil is for additional cooling and also the oil will tend to stay cleaner longer because of the additional volume. But, since "we" tend to change our oil frequently and not push the time, that's not an issue anyway. Pontiac engineers knew what they were doing when they designed these engines.

Bear


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

Good to hear! And yes, I'll change the oil often, long before it's "bad".
I will use 10w40 semi synthetic from Valvoline. (15w40 mineral oil for the first 300-400 miles).


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

I'm thinking of this pan.. on the homepage they say it fits every early GTO and because I already have problems with clearance between header-clutch linkage-starter I guess this pan is my only choice. It also has got a fitting for a oil temp gauge, I'd like to install one. What temps should I see with the gauge? 200-230 F?

Canton 15-452
http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/ctr-15-452/overview/


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

I ordered the Canton 15-452 pan with the pickup and dipstick and will add a temp gauge (the pan already has the fitting). System capacity will grow about 1 quart, that may help a little with cooling and give me some more confidence if I step on the gas. The pan with the kickout has about 0.5 quart more but I don't want to deal with more clearance issues as the clutch linkage, starter and header already are a pain to install.

The pickup can be bolted to the pump which I think is a good thing and I'll use the windage tray.. maybe the old pan wouldn't easily clear the 4.25" stroke plus windage tray.. now I shouldn't have to worry about that.

Do you think I should modify my windage tray? I checked it.. very good condition but it has just very few drain-back holes. The aftermarket trays seem to have much more. Can't tell if I should drill some holes.. I don't want the stabilty to decrease.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I think a windage tray seems to be a personal choice, I read good things and bad things. There is 3/4 or full length tray. I have read about and seen several photos where the windage tray has cracked and the owner caught it in a rebuild and another where it cracked, broke, and made a mess of the engine.

Some guys do drill extra holes for the oil to drain faster. There are also several aftermarket trays that have screens or extra holes. So each person has a different idea, good and bad.

If you use a tray, you have to make sure you have the clearance between your crankshaft throws and the tray. Sometimes you have to use a few washers underneath the tray to get the needed clearance so the crank does not hit it.

What I decided to do is use the later factory oil pan which has a baffle in it and a crank scraper from Butler Performance. I have never used one of these, but have read a lot about them and they seem to be a better alternative to the windage tray. If some oil gets thrown about by the crank, how bad can that be going on the lower cylinder walls? I don't think a street engine will know the difference if you have some drag on the crank from oil. Some say a spinning crank will whip up the oil or make it foammy, but my guess is you'll have to spin 9,000 RPM's to worry about that.

Just my opinion on it, but I'm going crank scraper, baffled factory oil pan, and *no windage tray* on my 455CI.


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

Interesting. I'm not sure if I should use the windage tray again.. but it has always been in the engine... stock part and I couln't find any signs of wear.

The Canton pan is baffled... my old pan was baffled too.

Do you think it's a risk to use the windage tray?! Or just not necessary if I buy a crank scraper?


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

I got my pan... looks very nice and the holes line up well with the engine.










I'll use this pan, a Tomahawk windage tray and a Melling 80psi pump. I think this will work well for me.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Chris-Austria said:


> I got my pan... looks very nice and the holes line up well with the engine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pan looks good.

Why the 80PSI pump and not the 60PSI pump??????


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

I asked Butler and they recommended the 80psi.
Here is an article about that topic: Oil Pump Observations - High Performance Pontiac Magazine

_"Butler says that since an engine with smaller-diameter main journals (3-inch) and shorter-stroke crankshafts (4.21-inch or less) is generally less stressful on the bearings, a 60-psi pump may provide adequate lubrication in a modified engine, but an 80-psi pump is a better choice. He says any performance engine with 3.25-inch-diameter main journals and/or a stroker length greater than 4.21 inches should use an 80-psi pump. “The greater oil pressure associated with the 80-psi pump improves the strength of the oil film, and better protects the bearings in large journal and/or long-stroke applications,” he adds."_

I'll be using 10w40 synthetic oil.. it's a 3.25" journal size with 4.25" stroke. From all the articles I found online most say the same.. such a pump cannot suck the pan dry as some might think and it cannot wash out the bearings. Do you think a 60psi is "better"? The difference in price isn't noticeable and I don't need the pickup that comes with the 60psi unit because I got the Canton pickup that screws on the pump.
They also say in the article that it may be better for hydraulic roller cams.. I'll get one.. maybe this is also a reason why they recommended it when I asked them because they know my engine.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

OK. Just curious as so many say the 60PSI is good enough and the 80PSI is overkill. I have read that the 80PSI pump was for those race engines with larger bearing clearances.

I was interested in the Butler Pro Series pump thinking it would be the best way to go on my 455CI build. I emailed them about it and I was told that the Pro Series was for race engines and that the 60PSI pump was all I needed. They did not even suggest the 80PSI pump. So I went with the 60PSI pump. I am not using a roller cam. I am using a standard flat tappet solid cam/lifters, so that may make a difference.

I'd go with whatever Butler suggested to you as they know their Pontiac engines.:thumbsup:


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

I was surprised as well, but then I found this article and I guess Butler knows whats best for my engine.. its not a race engine by the way.. 428cui stroked to 462cui with 4.25" stroke, 3.25" main journal, 4 bolt, 6.8" h-beams, ross pistons, edelbrock heads, hydraulic roller cam with 224/230 @ .05"... I think they suggested the 80psi because of the cam and the 3.25" main journal size and maybe because I want to use 5w30 or 10w40.. 

By the way, would you use mineral oil for "break-in" even with the roller cam? The cam dont need break in but maybe the piston rings or so? I can get 15w40 Mineral for the first hundert miles or a 10w40 semi synth.. not sure what would be better.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Not sure myself on what oil to use for break-in. Again, many opinions as for oil and on how to break in an engine. Again, I would ask Butler what he recommends for the break-in process.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Good choice on the pump. 60 is plenty for a street engine. 80 like has been said is good for race engines with loose tolerances, but get ready for very accelerated wear on the distributor drive gear and cam.

I used Royal Purple break in oil in my engine (solid roller) and switched to Rotella-T afterwards.

Considering the difficulties you've had, you might want to consider after break in, cutting the oil filter open and checking for any evidence of metal "just in case".

Bear


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

Butler said 15w40 mineral is good for break in, after that I can switch to something else. I'm currently not sure if it will be 5w40 or 10w40.. I want to run a synthetic and since both are the same viscosity at operating temperature I guess I'll try the 5w40. (Valvoline SynPower).

I also ordered the polymer distributor gear. Butler told me that the 60psi is good for a regular driving car and 80psi isn't too much pressure, they use them on engines at 500-600hp. (He said mine will be at about 500hp when we've choosen the parts)

Bear, that's a good idea! I'll cut the filter open and have a look.


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

BearGFR said:


> Hey Chris,
> I'm running one of the Milodon pans with the angled side kickout. I like it. With a filter change and everything, 9 quarts puts it back to the full mark on the dipstick. (Yeah, I know the specs on this pan say it holds 7 quarts plus filter.) I'm also using one of their pickups that bolts to the oil pump. No worries about the pickup falling off for me...
> The one down side of this pan is that you pretty much have to run some sort of mini-starter unless you're willing to sign up for having to remove the header on that side to get the starter in and out.
> 
> ...


Bear, I know this is old, but I’ve bought both of those parts as well along with an M54 D S pump. The fit of the pickup is not a press at all in the pump, it slide in and is free to turn easily. I know the pump is fine because the original screen pickup is clearly a press fit when I try to push it in. Is the Milidon supposed to be a similar press fit as the screen pickup, or does it just get close since it’s going to bolt on?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Howdy sir,
Well, I've since changed my mind about liking the Milodon pan. I don't like it - a lot. The reason is how it fits, or rather _doesn't fit,_ over the rear main cap. At the top/bottom of the arch it's so loose that it barely touches the gasket, let alone compressing it any. The last time I had the engine apart I wound up trying to improve the fit by laying a bead inside the pan arch with my mig welder and reshaping it with a grinder. I've also decided I don't like their oil pickup. The "screen" on it is actually a piece of sheet metal with holes punched in it, and the holes are large enough to allow small bits to pass right through. The next time I have it out, probably later this year, I'm going to try one of the Canton pans. The Milodon set up "looked good on paper" but now with the benefit of having actually used it, I'm not a fan. But to answer your question, yes the bolt is supposed to hold the pickup on so having it just a little loose shouldn't be a huge concern as long as it's not SO loose that it leaks there. Since it sounds like you still have yours out, do check how your pan fits before you put it all together for "the last time". I tested mine by overfilling it with enough oil to completely submerge the crank and hanging it back-end down from my hoist for a few days to make sure it didn't leak. I'm currently using an oil pump from Luhn, one of their really nice 80 lb. units. They're pricey, but extremely well done. It also has a good screened pickup and is tig welded to the pump. It's not coming off. 
Luhn Performance, Inc.


Bear


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

Thanks bear, did you try the rubber one piece pan gasket? That’s what I have. It seems quite a bit thicker, but I can’t say for sure. Also, most specifications say to tighten the oil pump cover to 15 foot pounds, but is that still true with this aftermarket pump? Thanks for your response!


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

Sorry, I also meant to ask, did you use the bolt that came with the pick up, or just use the original bolt on the oil pump? I would rather use the original, but I think the new one is very slightly longer.


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

One more note - I loved your One Piece BOP Rear Main Seal install video, thanks for making that!

Ed


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

Does anyone else have experience with the Milodon 18425 pick up, and can tell me if it was an actual pressfit, or just a close fit? Also if the supplied washer is intended to be between the pump and the pickup, or just under the bolt head directly? Thank you.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

No experience with it. But, it may not be a press fit because it bolts to the pump, right? I was just at my local machine shop and I asked the same question about press fit, welding, and pinning the oil pump pick up. The answer was they only really tack welded pickup's on race engines, and some pickup's were slip fit because they bolted down to the oil pump or a bracket. So not all pickups are press fit as I thought. 

If the pickup bolts down to the oil pump in some manner, then put the washer under the head of the bolt and use a little Locktite on the bolt as well, even though you will be torquing it down.

I have the Milodon pickup for the deeper pan. I don't have a deeper pan as of yet, but plan on cutting a stock pan and dropping it lower to give me a deep pan.

Don't know what oil pump you have, but I would get the thicker bottom plate from KRE for the Mellings pump. Tin Indian Performance - New High Performance Pontiac Products


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Yes, I used the BOP 1-piece pan gasket. Even with one of those I still had a rough time getting it to seal over the middle of the rear main cap.

Th Milodon pickup isn't supposed to be a tight press fit. The ear that goes under one of the pump plate bolts holds it secure. I used red Loctite on that bolt on mine for extra insurance when I was running that pickup. 

I also used one of these plates:
Pro-oil Pump Plate

However, on my current build I've ditched all that (except for the pan, and even that will get tossed the next time I have the engine out) and have gone with a Luhn pump.
Luhn Performance, Inc.

I don't see them broken out separately on his web site now, but I went with the 80psi pump. I custom ordered it for the depth of the Milodon pan (8" from the pan rail to the bottom of the sump) and it arrived perfect, with a VERY nice screened pickup.

I'm using Paul Spotts's windage tray and crank scraper as well. I had to clearance the tray just a little for the longer pressure spring housing that's used on the 80psi pumps. I also welded two hex nuts on the inside of the tray in order to create a way to secure the lower dipstick tube.



Bear


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

...and... Here's what the inside of my previous oil pump looked like after running for 5 years with the Milodon pick-up.


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

Well, talking to the guys at both Butler, and Milodon, they told me that it definately should be a press fit, even though it is also a bolt on - mostly due to keeping it leak free. Butler says they also weld around the edge just to be safe. Milodon and Butler both said that this is a know manufacturing issue, and they thought they were past it, so I had to ship it back to Milodon, they will send a new one. This one was very loose, like if I hold the pump upside down, it will fall out. Milodon did say it is not as tight a press as a stock pickup though (again, beacuse of the bolt). Ed


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

BearGFR said:


> ...and... Here's what the inside of my previous oil pump looked like after running for 5 years with the Milodon pick-up.
> 
> View attachment 133386
> View attachment 133387
> ...


Ok Bear, thank you. I have been told by a few people, including my machineist that the Melling M54D-S was the pump to use, even in high preformance applications. They said its solid as a rock, and that losses were very low, so thats what I have (I was ok with the reasonable price too!). I also have a Tomahawk windage tray (I have the tapped holes on #2 and #4 already) so it uses the non bolted dip stick tube. I'm using a Butler Stroker set. I've also purched the one piece gasket (quite an investment!) and the Milodon 30355 pan. My block is machined and sitting in my basement waiting for spring to bring to the garage and put on the stand to start building - heads going in next week for guides, seats, valve job, etc. BUT I had NOT bought the replacment pump bottom - seeing your pictures was scary! I think I'll look into that; I've heard stories about replacing that on the stock pump since I was a kid. Seems Melling would have dealt with that in this pump by now? Thanks Bear and Jim!


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

My other concern, just thinking out loud, is even with my old pick up it barely fit to the screw hole. I wonder if adding .125" to the cover will make it not work at all? I guess I'll find out!


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

Ordered from Nitemare. Hopefully my bolts will be fine with the little bit of added thickness. Thanks guys.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Ebartone said:


> Ordered from Nitemare. Hopefully my bolts will be fine with the little bit of added thickness. Thanks guys.


You don't have to reuse the same bolts. You can always get some grade-8 that are just a little longer, as long as they don't bottom out in the threaded holes.


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

Good point, thanks!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

BearGFR said:


> You don't have to reuse the same bolts. You can always get some grade-8 that are just a little longer, as long as they don't bottom out in the threaded holes.


The pump plate from KRE/Tin Indian included the longer bolts. Nitrmare Performance is another good source, and should include the bolts. I have purchased items from Nitemare and Darrin the owner will answer emails. If no bolts with the plate, just email him and he will tell you what you need. I plan on visiting Darrin and his shop on my next vacation trip to Rhode Island to see family as his shop is right on my way up.


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

Thanks Jim!


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