# 69 LeMans conv restoration or conversion?



## PontiacGuy (Apr 22, 2006)

My new 06 GTO has me back in the performance car hobby, and now I'm thinking its time to go back to work on the '69.

I picked this car up about 8 years ago, a very top-end '69 LeMans convertible with just about every "sport" option available- factory red ext/int with white top, A/C, buckets/console, turbo 400, 3:55 gear, disk brakes, RII wheels, etc. I did not get the original heads with the engine but all indications are that the car may be one of the few that came with the 4-bbl 350 that was offered in '69. It turns out that someone that works in my office knows both the original owner and the guy I bought it from, and remembers the car when it was brand-new, so I have a good idea of its history.

When I bought it the car was physically in good shape but mechanically rough. I replaced all the suspension bushings, springs, ball joints etc, rewired the dash and fixed all the mechanical problems, repaired/replaced damaged or missing interior parts and exterior trim, and put a good 350 engine in it. Basicly got it looking good from 30' and made it drive nice. Since then it has lived in my garage and we drive it only occaisionally when the weather is nice.

Now I am thinking its time to do a real restoration. My original intentions were to go close to original. But now I am seeing some outrageous prices for GTO "clones" or "tribute cars" or whatever you want to call them. This one would be extremely easy to convert since it has all of the GTO goodies except for the 400 engine, hood and GTO badges.

So what to do, keep it original or build it into a red GTO conv clone? Money is not an issue- I can dump into it whatever it takes to get it "right". And I've done restorations before so I know what that means.

To the purists here, I would never try to sell it as an original GTO.

Any thoughts?


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## PONTIACBEN (May 6, 2006)

Either Way You Will Have A Cool Car. I Have More Guys Compliment Me On Taking The Time On A Lemans Without Turning It Into A Goat, Than Any Other Single Compliment I Have Ever Gotten On My Car. 
If Money Is No Issue, Buy A Real Gto, if A Gto Is What You Want. 
The Beauty Of A Lemans Is That You Can Get Away With Anything, Without Making Any Hard Core Pontiac Guys Upset For Ruining A Real Goat By Cutting The Dash, Or Package Tray To Make The Car What You Want. 
I Have Also Always Been Fond Of The Big Chrome Front Bumper And Have Gotten Many Compliments On It As Well. 
At The End Of The Day, You Don't See As Many Lemans' Restored And Driving As You Do Gto's. 
If You Are Wanting To Restore The Car To Make A Profit, Go The Clone Route. If You Are Going To Keep The Car, Make It What You Want. If You Really Can't Decide, Just Don't Put Any Badges What So Ever Back On It, And Let People Think What They Want.


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## Mike_V (Mar 10, 2006)

Hmm, would be nice to have an old and new GTO. Still, since it’s a LeMans vert with all the options, I think it makes more sense to keep it a LeMans.


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## PontiacGuy (Apr 22, 2006)

I'll have to admit when I bought the car I was purposefully looking for a LeMans and not a GTO. The old 400's are strong but my experience with them has been that they want to overheat and run soft during the hot Georgia summer. The 350's are about as forgiving and bullet-proof as they come. And this is not the sort of car that I would put on the racetrack.

But all that was before the GTO values really skyrocketed. Its funny, even with the Lemans badges and chrome bumper 90% of the people that look at the car say "nice GTO". It drives my wife crazy.


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## squeezedgto (Oct 23, 2006)

I would keep it a lemans. I have a 68 tempest that already had a gto hood and sandblasted bumper when I purchased it. Since i like the hood and was painting the car they were painted to match. But I cant bring myself to put the other gto goodies on it. I think its much cooler being a Tempest, just like yours is much cooler as a Lemans. Remember this hobby is about what you like, not whats worth more.


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## Ragtop70 (May 18, 2006)

Order the PHS for the car. IF it is in fact a 350HO car it is very rare. Restored LeMans converts are very rare also as it seems that all of the decent cars are being cloned into GTOs. That being said values for GTO clones and restored LeMans are roughly equal so build it however you want. Personally, I'd do it as a LeMans HO but with a nasty 455 dressed to look like the original 350.


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## PontiacGuy (Apr 22, 2006)

Thinking about it you are right, the first step is to get the build sheet. If it is the HO version and I have the documents to prove it then it is probably worth restoring the car that way.

I'll fill out the forms this weekend and send them out Monday.


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## kegbelly (Mar 23, 2006)

I would agree with everyone else and keep it a LeMans, especially if it turns out to be a rare one with the options you mention. I love GTO's, and the clones are going for big bucks too, but I always thought there's sort of an underdog cool factor in a LeMans. I've got a '67 post, when I bought it I thought seriously about cloning a GTO but I'm quite happy with it just like it is. Only thing I did was put GTO grilles in it to give it a little more aggressive look up front. Besides, about 95% of the people that come up and check it out when I'm driving it think its a GTO and don't know or don't remember the differences anyhow. I get thumbs up every time I drive it, and that's plenty cool with me. :cheers


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## PontiacGuy (Apr 22, 2006)

Thanks all for the input. You are definitely swaying my thoughts. I hope that the documentation shows that all the stuff on the car belongs and that it came with the HO engine. I've owned a bunch of late 60's FB's, Lemans and GTO's over the years and this one is definitely very unusual. The interior is done in a very cool two-tone burgundy over red which I have never seen before. I've also never seen a Lemans that came with a TH400, but it has the correct spring-ratchet shifter and hookups, and the numbers match. The 3:55 is a big gear for a stock LeMans and it could have been swapped, but with the other goodies I figure its likely to be original.

I got the original 350 engine with the car and it had the correct 4bbl manifold and Qjet, etc. But the owner had the engine rebuilt and the shop convinced him to put "performance" heads on it. The owner was clueless and let them install mid-70's low compression 400 heads on the engine. It was a horrible rebuild and I knew the engine was pretty much toast when I bought it. I actually felt sorry for the guy and just couldn't tell him how badly he had been ripped off. Anyway without the heads I couldn't be sure whether it was an original HO or not.


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## PontiacGuy (Apr 22, 2006)

Well it didn't take long to get my package back from PHS. I faxed out the form last Monday and it arrived in the mail today.

The bad news- according to the invoice my car did not come with the HO engine. The good news- all of the other performance goodies are original. I'm not sure why someone would special order a 3:55 gear with a 2bbl 350. But the 350 I have in it is dressed out as an HO anyway, with 2.11/1.77 72cc heads, stock 60's manifold and Q-jet.

According to the paperwork there were 5,676 LeMans Sport convertibles made in '69 which is nice to know.

One thing that the paperwork did not settle is the two-tone interior. The invoice lists trim code 54 (red) to go with the matador red exterior. But the b/w pics provided don't look anything like my interior. Overall it is in great shape and all I would want to do is replace the center panels on the front seats. But I have no idea how to match it.

I am attaching some pics. It has orange-red center panels with burgundy-red outer panels and trim parts. The pics don't show the colors too good but it is quite sharp looking. The metal inserts on the doors have "LeMans" lettering. Has anyone seen this sort of interior? Any ideas how to match it?


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## BigNick (Jan 7, 2005)

Is it possible, being a convertible and all, that it spent a lot of time with the sun baking the interior (top down) early in its life, and the different materials faded at different rates due to exposure?


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## PontiacGuy (Apr 22, 2006)

Its definitely two different colors. The camera using the flash in the dark garage didn't really show how much difference there is. The darker color is really the strange one- it is not really red at all. I am calling it burgundy, maybe maroon would be a better description. And the center (red) panels are very close to the color of the vinyl on the console, the new plastic seat backs, etc. Also all the piping at the upholstry seams is the same bright red and it really stands out against the burgundy.

Look again at the difference between the console lid against the console itself in the first pic. The flash didn't wash the pic out there so the difference is easier to see.


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## PONTIACBEN (May 6, 2006)

How original does it really look? It is very possibe that down the line somewhere, the upholstrey has been re-done. Especially in a convertible, i can't imagine that the original vinyl would look that nice. The pattern on the seats look right for a 69 minus the "Y," which would make sense if they had been re-covered, as leaving this out may have been a cheaper option for the previous owner. (I have seen many botched attempts at re-creating the original "Y" both on seats and door pannels. Evidently this is not easy.) As for he two-tone, i have never seen that one before. It may be another "personal preference" choice made by the previous owner, if in fact it has been re-covered. It also looks like neither vinyl color really matches the plastic on the bases of the armrests. In most of the original colored pontiac interiors that i have seen, the vinyl matches the plastic almost perfectly. If this is original, I would say that it is an extremely rare pattern/color combo.


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## PontiacGuy (Apr 22, 2006)

You are right, anything is possible for a car this old and earlier replacement is on the list of possibilities. But...

I replaced the armrests with repros when I first bought the car and to be honest I wasn't very happy with the quality. So I wouldn't go by them. The red matches the new seat backs and other red plastic trim very nicely.

The interior was actually a real wreck when I bought the car. The carpet was ancient with huge holes and stains, likely original. And it was the burgundy color, not red. I pulled the whole interior apart and spent a good amount of time scrubbing and cleaning the upholstery, but as shown in the pics I was able to get most all the dirt out of it. The vinyl on both front seat bottoms was shot. If the interior was re-done it was a long, long time ago.

All the formed pieces like the shaped cylinder covers etc at the ends of the rear seats are the burgundy color, not red. So all of these would have had to be replaced and/or somehow re-covered. Possible, but not likely.

If the interior was re-done it was a real top-notch custom job done very early in the car's history. I think that it is more likely that it is original.


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