# An end to the 87vs89vs93 Octane debate, please...



## sboylan (Nov 14, 2004)

Constants:
TG 18 // Total Gallon Capacity of GTO
MPY 15000 // Miles Per Year
MPG 17 // Miles Per Gallon

------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
"87"
1.87 // Current Gas Price (Indiana)
33.66 // Cost to Fill Tank (TG * Current Gas Price)
306 // Total Miles (MPG * TG)

49.01960784 // Number of Fill Ups Per Year (MPY / Total Miles)
1650 // Annual Fuel Cost (Cost to Fill Tank * Number of Fill Ups)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"89"
1.95 // Current Gas Price (Indiana)
35.10 // Cost to Fill Tank (TG * Current Gas Price)
306 // Total Miles (MPG * TG)

49.01960784 // Number of Fill Ups Per Year (MPY / Total Miles)
1720.588235 // Annual Fuel Cost (Cost to Fill Tank * Number of Fill Ups)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"93"
2.03 // Current Gas Price (Indiana)
36.54 // Cost to Fill Tank (TG * Current Gas Price) 
306 // Total Miles (MPG * TG)

49.01961 // Number of Fill Ups Per Year (MPY / Total Miles)
1791.176 // Annual Fuel Cost (Cost to Fill Tank * Number of Fill Ups)

As you can see, we don't exactly drive hybrids however I for one will never cheat the car by fueling it with 89 (I'll forget those who posted they have used 87); if you can't afford the additional $70 a year or $6 a month for gas there is absolutely no reason what so ever you should even be driving this or any car for that matter! $6 are you kidding me?

Whew, I feel better now.


----------



## zone 5 (Sep 24, 2004)

Lets see, GM says that it doesn't matter, so I run 87, you run 93. I save $141 a year, which is 75 gallons of gas, or 4 tanks, or better still 1275 miles. That means that I get one month of free gas compared to using 93. This is all based on your mpg numbers etc.


----------



## 2004 GTO (Aug 2, 2004)

sboylan said:


> Constants:
> TG 18 // Total Gallon Capacity of GTO
> MPY 15000 // Miles Per Year
> MPG 17 // Miles Per Gallon
> ...


 :agree Finally someone posted this. There are also more benificial fuel additives in the higher octane fuels to keep your injectors clean.


----------



## zone 5 (Sep 24, 2004)

2004 GTO said:


> :agree . There are also more benificial fuel additives in the higher octane fuels to keep your injectors clean.


Say WHAT????? Try again.


----------



## 2004 GTO (Aug 2, 2004)

zone 5 said:


> GM says that it doesn't matter, so I run 87


 You are correct in saying "It doesn't matter" to a point. Yes the car will run on 87 but it will run better on the higher octane. The reason being is the car is equipped with a computer system that will retard timing and adjust fuel trims to match the fuel you are running. Whenever you retard the timing you loose HP and performance which also results in lower MPG figures. The higher octane fuels also contain a much better additive mix for maintaining the fuel system. So even though you get a "free" month of fuel each year,You are loosing MPG and will probably end up replacing the fuel injectors to the tune of about $75.00 each (X8) plus labor much sooner than the "93" guys will. Just my .02 :confused


----------



## zone 5 (Sep 24, 2004)

2004 GTO said:


> The higher octane fuels also contain a much better additive mix for maintaining the fuel system.


Where are you guys getting this from??? The additives are no different. Direct from the General Motors Web site. Read about their top tier program.



> The Top Tier program began on May 3, 2004. Chevron, QuikTrip and ConocoPhillips have met the Top Tier Detergent Gasoline standards and are offering this product in all octane grades and in all their respective marketing areas


http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/environment/fuel_economy_emissions/emissions/detergent_092704.html


----------



## zone 5 (Sep 24, 2004)

Keep in mind, that yess the knock sensor WILL reduce timing "if" it senses knock. That means foot to the floor, severe load, or constant high RPM running. The rest of the time, which is 99% of teh driving most people do, the computer could care less what octane you are using


----------



## sboylan (Nov 14, 2004)

zone 5 said:


> Lets see, GM says that it doesn't matter, so I run 87, you run 93. I save $141 a year, which is 75 gallons of gas, or 4 tanks, or better still 1275 miles. That means that I get one month of free gas compared to using 93. This is all based on your mpg numbers etc.


If you want, I can continually ship you barrels of goat milk from the Amish at wholesale!??! Which you can then in turn combine with 2 parts of luke warm water. This would be very comparable to the low quality of fuel which you utilize in your muscle car. Some people, it's actually quite amusing; I can understand buying Equate brand cotton balls over Johnson & Johnson, or even Good Value brand salsa over Picante, but to use cheap fuel in your $34,000 vehicle is just preposterous. Go lift up your couch cushions and and empty the vacuum bag for the extra pennies which is very evident you need.


----------



## zone 5 (Sep 24, 2004)

sboylan said:


> but to use cheap fuel in your $34,000 vehicle is just preposterous. Go lift up your couch cushions and and empty the vacuum bag for the extra pennies which is very evident you need.


$27,000 is more like it, and if you want to waste $150 a year, more power to you. But then again, if you paid $34K for your GTO, you already got ripped off $7000


----------



## sboylan (Nov 14, 2004)

zone 5 said:


> $27,000 is more like it, and if you want to waste $150 a year, more power to you. But then again, if you paid $34K for your GTO, you already got ripped off $7000



You are such a moron, that is obviously sticker price; actually you got ripped off because mine was only 25,600. How bout them apples, biaaatch?


----------



## zone 5 (Sep 24, 2004)

sboylan said:


> You are such a moron, that is obviously sticker price; actually you got ripped off because mine was only 25,600. How bout them apples, biaaatch?


I think that you need to add tax/title/tags to your $25K car. and I don't really think that you want to get in a pissin contest with me either


----------



## sboylan (Nov 14, 2004)

zone 5 said:


> I think that you need to add tax/title/tags to your $25K car. and I don't really think that you want to get in a pissin contest with me either


It's always humorus when one party warns the other of not pissing them off via the internet. Are you going to take a road trip, hunt me down and put me in my place? Please.


----------



## stucker (Sep 22, 2004)

If he did that then he would use up all that free gas he gets


----------



## zone 5 (Sep 24, 2004)

sboylan said:


> It's always humorus when one party warns the other of not pissing them off via the internet. Are you going to take a road trip, hunt me down and put me in my place? Please.


I didn't tell you to not piss me off, I told you not to get into a pissin contest with me. There is a major difference between the two. Right now, you are just being an amusing 20 something year old kid. When you grow up some, maybe you will understand.


----------



## zone 5 (Sep 24, 2004)

stucker said:


> If he did that then he would use up all that free gas he gets


Key word would be "waste", not use


----------



## sboylan (Nov 14, 2004)

Ah yes the classical "grow up" card, how have I engaged in an immature discussion with you? I have articulately expressed that you are extremely cheap, period. You refuse to pay the additional .16 cents per gallon which apparently will break the bank. Fine, if that is your financial situtation it's not my position to tell you to buy higher grade fuel, however, with that said don't you dare imply that when I "grow up" I will understand. What were you doing when you were 22? Flipping hamburgers at Jack in the Box? Certainly not running a successful consulting firm.


----------



## 2004 GTO (Aug 2, 2004)

zone 5 said:


> Keep in mind, that yess the knock sensor WILL reduce timing "if" it senses knock. That means foot to the floor, severe load, or constant high RPM running. The rest of the time, which is 99% of teh driving most people do, the computer could care less what octane you are using


 "Keep in mind" that the knock sensor WILL detect a knock WWAAYY before you will ever think of hearing it. Therefore you have no clue as to when the engine is beginning to knock. I have been in the automotive industry for 30+ years and not all fuel is the same. So if whatever you are reading has convinced you otherwise then go for it. I for one will gladly spend a few extra dollars to make my car run better and last longer and I'm sure not alone on that idea. If you are so concerned about fuel cost then you should get one of the hybrid toads out there. :shutme


----------



## sboylan (Nov 14, 2004)

2004 GTO said:


> If you are so concerned about fuel cost then you should get one of the hybrid toads out there. :shutme


 :agree Exactly.


----------



## zone 5 (Sep 24, 2004)

sboylan said:


> Ah yes the classical "grow up" card, how have I engaged in an immature discussion with you?


Your way to have a discussion is to call someone a Moron, a Bitch, and your "cute" little Goats Milk comment was really mature.



> when I "grow up" I will understand. What were you doing when you were 22? Flipping hamburgers at Jack in the Box? Certainly not running a successful consulting firm.


What ever you are consulting on, I hope that you use a better choice of words than you have here. What was I doing at 22? I believe that my degree says I was still working on my MBA.


----------



## zone 5 (Sep 24, 2004)

2004 GTO said:


> "Keep in mind" that the knock sensor WILL detect a knock WWAAYY before you will ever think of hearing it. Therefore you have no clue as to when the engine is beginning to knock. I have been in the automotive industry for 30+ years and not all fuel is the same. So if whatever you are reading has convinced you otherwise then go for it. I for one will gladly spend a few extra dollars to make my car run better and last longer and I'm sure not alone on that idea.


Yup, you pegged the exact thing that I said. The knock sensor is way smarter than humans. Its job along with a lot of other sensors on the car is to make sure that things run as they should. Do you really believe that GM would state that you can run 87 in the engine if you couldn't? Their only comment about it is that you "may" notice less acceleration. They say nothing about knocking. I think GM knows more about the LS1 than any one here does.

As far as fuel goes, Does anyone here read what is typed? I never said that there wasn't a different between fuels. I never even talked about different fuels. I talked about the difference in ADDITIVIES between 87 and 93. Again, a direct quote from GM and Chevron on that. There is NO difference between the additivies that are in 87 or 93.

As far as fuel costs, I could care less. The 2 vehicles I have get between 14 and 17 mpg. However, why should I give more money to an oil company than I have to?


----------



## zone 5 (Sep 24, 2004)

For all you fuel experts out there, just a few quotes from the real eperts that built our cars and engines and make our gas. I think GM, Chevron, and Honda experts know a bit more than all of us put together.



> The only modern engines that should really need premium are those with superchargers, which force-feed fuel into the cylinders. "You're driving along and just tramp the gas and the knock sensor cannot sense the knock fast enough in some cases," because the supercharger boosts pressure so fast, says Bob Furey, chemist and fuels specialist at General Motors.
> 
> Burning regular when the owner's manual specifies premium won't void the warranty, nor damage the engine, even the most finicky automakers say. "You're giving up perhaps just a little bit of performance that a customer wouldn't really even notice, it's so slight," says Furey.





> I personally use regular even though my owner's manual says you'll get better performance with premium," says Lewis Gibbs, consulting engineer and 45-year veteran at Chevron oil company. He's chairman of Technical Committee 7 on Fuels, part of the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) Fuels & Lubricants Council. Gibbs knows gas.





> The main advantage of premium-grade gas is that it allows automakers to advertise a few more horsepower by designing and tuning engines to take advantage of premium's anti-knock properties. But auto engineers generally agree that if you use regular in a premium engine, the power loss is so slight, most drivers can't tell.
> 
> "I go back and forth, and I'm hard-pressed to notice" whether there's regular or premium in the tank, says Jeff Jetter, principal chemist at Honda Research and Development Americas. He drives an Acura designed for premium.


----------



## GoatHerder (Nov 21, 2004)

zone 5 said:


> Do you really believe that GM would state that you can run 87 in the engine if you couldn't? Their only comment about it is that you "may" notice less acceleration. They say nothing about knocking.


Actually, that's not entirely true. They do say that running 87 octane could lead to knocking and if that should happen, then you should run higher octane fuel in it as soon as possible to prevent any damage.

I'm really not sure I see the point in continuing this thread though. You've certainly made an articulate argument for your perspective and other's have made one for their perspective. 

You've made your decision on what grade gasoline you're going to use and they've made their decision on what grade gasoline they are going to use. 

At this point, no one is going to change anyone's mind who is already participating in the discussion so why not just drop it?

Greg


----------



## 2004 GTO (Aug 2, 2004)

The bottom line here is that GM ("experts") recommend premium. If it made no difference then that would not be in your owners manual or inside the fuel filler door. You have made your choice and the majority has made a different choice.


----------



## sboylan (Nov 14, 2004)

zone 5 said:


> Your way to have a discussion is to call someone a Moron, a Bitch, and your "cute" little Goats Milk comment was really mature.
> 
> 
> What ever you are consulting on, I hope that you use a better choice of words than you have here. What was I doing at 22? I believe that my degree says I was still working on my MBA.


Calling you a moron was only after you had no recognition that $34,000 was obviously the sticker price. Do you think if I went into a dealership and paid sticker price I would be participating in an online forum with you? Or better yet, I would be sending you the additional $141 a year so you can purchase “93” octane. No, I would be out spending more of my money because obviously there would be no end to it. Furthermore, I didn’t call you a “bitch” I used biaatch. More than likely if you go back and review all my posts this would be the first curse (more side-splitting than curse) word I have used. Goats Milk? Was it plural? No, and I thought this was extremely witty and comical. It only expressed how parsimonious you really are. Better get a thesaurus with some of these words, oh that’s right you have an MBA. Much like that FedEX commercial with the guy who gets stuck running the shipping dept. computer but has an MBA and then the woman proceeds to mock him by saying "oh I better show you then".

Parenthetically, congratulations on the MBA, personally I feel that would be a waste of my time. I received two degrees simultaneously in Electrical Engineering and Computer Engineering from Purdue. And yes my choice of words here and in the real world far better communicate with clients and prospective customers as you repeatedly butcher the English language. 

Just let it go, otherwise I will continue to come back at you and make you look more like the 40 something year old assembly line worker who’s sole job is to push the green and red button rather than the supposed MBA genius who warns everyone not to get in a “pissin” match with (very threatening by the way). Personally, I love arguing and shameful humiliating people publicly so I would rather you respond. Until next time, [email protected], signing off.


----------



## zone 5 (Sep 24, 2004)

sboylan said:


> Calling you a moron was only after you had no recognition that $34,000 was obviously the sticker price.


I believe that your exact quote was "in your $34,000 vehicle". Its not a $34K car unless you pay that. Sticker price means nothing, except to th epeople that got screwed by GM and bought the GTO when it first came out, at way over sticker.



> Better get a thesaurus with some of these words, oh that’s right you have an MBA.


Unlike you, I don't feel the need to feed my ego by typing huge words that most of the people in the world don't use, can't spell, and could care less about.



> Parenthetically, congratulations on the MBA, personally I feel that would be a waste of my time.


 To each his own. You got 2 degrees, I got one. In 20 years, you will probably find out that no one really cares what degree that I have or that you have. Once you have a job history, and reputation, the degree(s) mean little.



> I received two degrees simultaneously in Electrical Engineering and Computer Engineering from Purdue.


Congrats to you too. Excellent choice of schools and degrees.



> And yes my choice of words here and in the real world far better communicate with clients and prospective customers as you repeatedly butcher the English language.


At least I have shown my point with actual facts. As I said before, I don't have the need that you seem to have to inflate my ego by using big fancy words. Also, unlike you, I don't feel the need to discuss things by calling people names.



> Just let it go, otherwise I will continue to come back at you and make you look more like the 40 something year old assembly line worker who’s sole job is to push the green and red button rather than the supposed MBA genius who warns everyone not to get in a “pissin” match with (very threatening by the way).


You can feel free to keep believing that if you wish. Its a free world.



> Personally, I love arguing and shameful humiliating people publicly so I would rather you respond. Until next time,


You haven't shown anything yet. Everything that you have posted has been based on your own opinion. None has been based on the facts that are out there. I post quotes from experts at GM, Chevron, and Honda. You tell me that you have 2 degrees that have nothing to do with cars. My opinion is based on what the real experts have said. If we were discussing circuit technologies like Silicon bipolar, Silicon-Germanium HBT, CMOS, and BiCMOS processes, then I would concede, because that is your field of expertise.


----------



## GTO TOO (Sep 10, 2004)

Man ! I've tried to stay out of this one. But several "facts" must be brought out. I do not know Mr. Bob Fury. But if he is indeed a GM fuel and chemical specialist, the chances are very good he is not an ENGINE guy. He is a fuels GUY. They know fuels make up they have nothing to do with the actual engine applications and how the knock system works. 

I could care less what anyone uses in thier GTO. However, the statemant that only supercharged engines "need" premium is not true. Normally aspirated engines now have much higher compression ratios than they did just a few years ago. It is true the newer knock detection can and does pull spark retard very fast. If you use 87 octane, some spark is pulled out. ( and how much is pulled out is "LEARNED" in memory and some amount of drive time is required to "learn" it back in after 87 octane fuel has been used. How long one must drive to re-learn max. spark is dependant on several other factors. )The spark curves are designed to use 91 or better. If you have used 87 and feel no loss in power, that does not mean you have not lost HP, only the way you have driven and/or you are unable to detect the amount of HP you have lost. (With 350 HP "only" having 310 HP may not be detectable by some people's butt dyno )But that HP is still reduced. If more spark were not available using 91 octane, it would not have been suggested. That is a fact.

Just because a chemist doesn't know the difference does not mean there is no difference. He may drive his own car like a "granny" in which case he truely would not need a higher octane. What a fuels and labs chemist tells me about my engines function is HIS opinion, NOT THE FACTS !!! Those guys are NOT ENGINE GUYS. They provide input, they do not design the way an engine functions. Therefore, his statement is not fact, only his opinion, from an chemist perspective. The BIG drawback to premium fuels is they have more driveablity issues. Fuels have many rating parameters, octane is just one of those parameters. Fuels also have a driveablity index, higher octane fuels have a higher ( poorer driveablity ) index. That said I still fill my tank with 91 octane. ( NO ethonal added fuel ) If you want maximum preformance 91 will be better in the GTO than 87. Here is the last and most critical point!!! Where spark is removed as a function of octane is NOT the same amount at all speeds and loads points. Nor is the same amount of spark removed EVERYWHERE. As the knock system senses knock, more spark is taken out at high speeds and loads and very little my be taken out at lower RPM and loads. It is related to where an engines chamber design is KNOCK limited. Most engines reach MBT ( best torque ) at a spark requirement before they reach their knock limit at low RPM's and low engine loads. As the RPM and load rises the knock limit will be reached before the MBT spark point. Higher octane fuel raises the knock limit of an engine at these increased RPM and load points. And as the knock limit spark advance increase ( due to octane), every increase in spark advance is an increase in torque ( as the spark advance moves closer to MBT ). But that limit is not a single value across the engines operating range. BOTTOM LINE: for those sick of reading using 87 vs. 91 will probably have very little effect at light to medium throttle openings. As the GTO has tremendous amounts of torque available at even part throttle some may not notice if the spark at the "KNOCK Limit" as been reduced. But I assure you at Wide Open Throttle there is a difference between 87 and 91 in an LS1 engine. And just because you didn't hear KNOCK does not mean it is not present and some level for some amount of time!!!


----------



## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

I have 2 words to add,

Thread Closed!


----------

