# headers



## chris8299s (Dec 15, 2004)

Will aftermarket headers alone affect emissions from the car? I know Borla and Corsa have cat-back exhaust systems that are 50-state emissions legal, but they don't sell headers for the gto. I just want to make sure that the headers I pick won't make me fail the smog test. Thanks.


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## BigJim (Oct 30, 2004)

As long as you arn't in California :cheers


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## chris8299s (Dec 15, 2004)

I am in California. Does anyone live in California that has superchared or turbocharged their GTO? Is it still emissions legal? I think people in California can't even add a new air intake!! I know the KN one is illegal.


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## BigJim (Oct 30, 2004)

Thats rediculous! I just said that as a joke. I didnt know that was actually the case. I am in TN and they dont really care what you do.


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## Whiteshadow (Sep 28, 2004)

Chris, I am pretty sure an intake isn't going to hurt your emissions in California. many exhaust systems are even california safe. Headers will most likely fail the test though, atleast long tubes will.

I thought some of Lingenfelter's cars were smog legal... but I'm guessing this excludes California. :confused


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## Purdone (Jan 6, 2005)

LT headers are illegal in any state that check emissions as they move the location of the cats. I believe JBA shorties are legal in CA if you leave the cats on the car.


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## chris8299s (Dec 15, 2004)

Whiteshadow said:


> Chris, I am pretty sure an intake isn't going to hurt your emissions in California. many exhaust systems are even california safe. Headers will most likely fail the test though, atleast long tubes will.
> 
> I thought some of Lingenfelter's cars were smog legal... but I'm guessing this excludes California. :confused



All I know for sure is that the K&N has only one type of intake kit for the GTO: http://www.knfilterchargers.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=63-1099

And it says that it's not legal in some states. California has the most restrictive emissions laws, so if it's illegal somewhere, it's illegal in California.

Some sites say that all of their intake kits pass emissions laws for all 50 states, but they don't have one shaped for the GTO. They probably get away with modifying the 4 cylinder cars without problems, but the big ls1 or ls2 is too dirty...at least in California.


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## chris8299s (Dec 15, 2004)

Thanks, Whiteshadow and Purdone!

What is it about the long tube headers that will make it fail? Just because the cat is further back? Is it because the gas has time to cool a tiny bit before it reaches the cat? Thx.


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## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

I'm betting the SLP mid lenghts would pass both the sniffer and the visual, it would come down to whether they had a CARB number I guess. Someone mentioned JBA's yeah they pass for California but show about 3RWHP gains and zero track gains, although they look nice. IMHO if you are going to get headers get L/T's they have some that are posting 35RWHP numbers!

Then when it is time to smog sell the car hahahah J/K. CA sucks.


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## Whiteshadow (Sep 28, 2004)

chris8299s said:


> Thanks, Whiteshadow and Purdone!
> 
> What is it about the long tube headers that will make it fail? Just because the cat is further back? Is it because the gas has time to cool a tiny bit before it reaches the cat? Thx.


Well actually as far as I know, long tube headers just eliminate the catalytic converter all together. Basically, the header is nicknamed 'long tube' because it is the same length as the stock header+catalytic converter. Shorty headers are stock length that will bolt right up to the stock catalytic converter. By getting rid of the catalytic converter, you are gaining a lot of power... but if you go with the longtubes, you ALWAYS want to make sure to get o2 simulators which will tell the computer all is well! Otherwise you'll be driving around with a check engine light on!


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## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

I believe equal length and the design is important too otherwise we could get some cheap JBA shorties and make test pipes with simm's.

I think some of it is the design , the cut, and that they are equal length.

It has been my experience with the LS1 that any shorter header Ie. Edelbrock, JBA etc is a waste of money and labor.

Mid's can show gains if designed right though and can often pass smog (MAC Mid Length Headers comes to mind.)


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## Whiteshadow (Sep 28, 2004)

Maxhax hit the nail right on the head...

MINIMAL gains will be seen with shorty headers, in other words they are a huge waste of time! Mid- and long tube headers are the way to go. Check out ls1tech.com and corvetteforum.com for more info, might have to do a search. But I'm sure you'll see a dyno or two comparing shorties to long tubes, and mid length headers.


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## BigJim (Oct 30, 2004)

LT's are definatly the way to go Mids add about 15hp and LT'a add around 30hp. Can you pass emissions with LT's in TN? :cheers


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## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

Yes you can. I know a guy that designs them their, I think even high flow or no cats pass smog in TN. So in Summary:

Shorties: 3WHP Zero track gains (I ran 2 different brands)
Mid's 15RWHP about 1.5 tenths at the track (I raced with Mac's.)
Long Tubes up to 35whp depending on your car and over 3 tenths

As a rule of thumb if you're a good driver every 10rwhp is a tenth and every 100 pounds is a tenth. I am close to shaving off nearly 100 pounds (about 20 away.) I can lose that in my gut  then if I can add 50rwhp that is .6 combined weight and mods. If I spray I am in the 12's always so tempting....


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## BigJim (Oct 30, 2004)

Oh thats good so if I get the LT's and the free flow cats package with kooks i should be fine when it comes to passing emission? Yea spray is always fascinating :cool


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2005)

*zoomies thats the ticket!*

zoomies are legal in all 52 states!


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## chris8299s (Dec 15, 2004)

what are zoomies?


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## BigJim (Oct 30, 2004)

:rofl:


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2005)

chris8299s said:


> what are zoomies?


zoomies are the fastest way out for the spent by product of the internal
combustion engine, air fuel combustion spark exhaust! zoomies can be in your
future,they require basic hand tools, a cutting torch( to clearance the hood)
be careful not to damage the paint, remove factory manifolds,chuck the rest of the exhaust system,install the zoomies, if the 2 holes you cut in the hood
are perfect the zoomies will stick out thru the hood,you wont ever need the 
stereo again the exhaust noise will cancel out the blaupunk,dont park zoomies
in the rain, :confused  arty:


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## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

*Living my life vicariuosly through the GTO Forum*

Speaking of hoods:

LOL, 

I have been at my ex's all weekend and my car just sits in the garage, damn I miss that garage and my dog while we do all the weekend driving in her car haha! Anyway, I was looking at my hood and was wondering what the aftermarket hoods are doing for the windshield washer spouts (2) that are built into the factory hood? Do you just loose them when you get an aftermarket hood? If so I think I just gained 1200.00 for performance mods because I can live with the hood (plus I think it makes a better sleeper.)

So now I am back to either headers probably Kooks w/o cats (vrooom) or the Wieand Intake and SLP TB. I am wondering what would be a better bang for the buck for power, bringing in more air or letting more exhaust out?
Both probably but damn do I want to spend thousands of dollars on this bloated heavy car when it already has trouble keeping the tires on the ground as is? So I am thinking of maybe just keeping it like it is. It flies man and gets too squirelly on corners, wants to drift. It seems to have enough torque it is just too heavy and high. So for 5 grand you can get 400rwhp? Crap man I had 419rwhp for 4700 (ATI Procharger) in my Z and that car only weighed 3400 lbs   ....

Well I get paid in 3 days who knows what I will want to do by then maybe Zoomies... :agree :cheers arty: 

Go Steelers w/ the Rookie QB!!!!!

In Summary,

Intake and throttlebody with some cool MAF ends or
headers for the same amount?


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## BigJim (Oct 30, 2004)

Not sure They are both good investments if you know what I mean  :cool arty:


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## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

Thanks Jim,

Yeah I am back home now and have my broadband.

I am leaning towards headers but I think what should be considered is that I have a SLP Loudmouth Resonator package (no mufflers) so my exhaust is pretty open and very torquey, I guess that is a good description it has lots of torque. It has been my expirience on my other cars that a larger or "wide open" exhaust can get the best gains from forced induction or Nitrous (I have run both) and when staying N/A headers are laborous, tend to have fitment issues somewhere (always resolved but still a pain) add noise and with my Borla's drone and "clicking."

I think I may be better to feed this puppy more air and get it tuned, with the resonator SLP Loudmouth package it's pretty open, to open itup more without increasing the intake may not be the best move. Anyways I have a few days to stew on it as I have ruled out the hood as a later addition and I plan on working on the power first then the looks otherwise I will just get revved on all the time here where I live. Yeah I'll buil it up and then do the appearance last. Intake, MAF, TB, I bet I gain more and still have a free flowing exhaust.

So hard to say man, when I switched to RT Cats from stock (with FI) on my Z the gain was instantly noticable, but I am not running FI.

I did thumb through a Summit catalogue they sent me though and I know I can put a 15 lb NOS bottle North to South in my gutted trunk for cheaper than all of the above and add 150HP Jets and be in the 12's.

Makes you go hmmm huh? Especially sence I can do my A/F/Timing with the Predator or N20 runs, yeah very tempting man N20 for the price of headers hehe. arty: :seeya: Go Falcon's Go Steelers!


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## Whiteshadow (Sep 28, 2004)

IMO headers/exhaust is the way to go for first mods. Forced induction requires a very un-restrictive exhaust setup to gain the REAL power that the car/tuner is capable of. By starting off with headers, you are gaining power/sound, and you are saving yourself some time to really decide what is best for you when it comes to Forced/Nitrous/All mota!


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## chris8299s (Dec 15, 2004)

MaxHax said:


> Speaking of hoods:
> 
> LOL,
> 
> ...



I noticed that you live in CA like me. How are you going to pass the smog test with no cats? Also, the kooks headers are long tubes, right? Won't that alone make you fail? You mentioned putting a Procharger on your Z (Z06?). Did that car pass the smog test? How much octane did that car require after that upgrade?


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## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

Hi chris8299s,

Sorry for being so vague I left the LSI seen when the new 350Z's hit the market ( Nissan) and I was actually the first one to get one on the West Coast in California. I ran Borla's which were shorties with 10 lbs of boost but when a cat got damaged I replaced both with RT's and the torque increase was really noticable. I have all sorts of pics of that 350Z but I drove it into the ground at Sac Raceway first running a 125 shot of N20 Wet and then FI (Procharger Borla True Dual and headers all CARB legal.)

So yeah the L/T's would not pass smog at all they would fail instantly and yes it is a extreme concern. However I am recently single and my career choice allows travel it is in demand everywhere and I am seriuosly disenfranchized with California and the ex thing is still the same nothing has changed so knowing all that above that I am not real concerned about CA SMOG what would you reccomend, intake (more cold air in) or L/T's?

I have ruled the hood out (for now.) I plan on a purchase Wednesday and saw L/T's in the 850.00 area.

I saw the cooks straight through (could add cat pipes later.)

Thoughts?


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## BigJim (Oct 30, 2004)

So Max you do have the air intake I assume? If you have that and a exhaust I would definatly get the Kooks LT's with no cats.:cool You would then have a very free flow exhaust. Then you could always add the intake and throttle body later if you wanted to. BTW how much does a throttle body help?:confused If you are worried about failing emmisions and are single you could always move east to TN where 93octane is everywhere and in some places you don't even have to go to emmisions I don't think.arty: Kind of off topic but your two teams both lost


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## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

Hey Jim,

Actually I have been contemplatating a move to TN (one of the least taxed and mod friendly states) for about 3 months since learning I didn't have ties here anymore. I know people there and they love it.

91 octane here for 1.99 a gallon  

The reason I am even considering the SLP Throttlebody is because when you get a larger upper intake plenum like the FireHawk has (roughly 20 more horses than a stock intake) the websites are vague on needing an "oem type throttle body." I have email inquires on whether I need a new TB but none have answered which is disheartening and not to mention names but they won't get my business.

I honestly think the TB gains are minimal unless combined with other INTAKE MODS and yes I have a CAI with a descreened MAF and a method to tune my A/F (Predator.) The more I read I am leaning towards headers, now which one, that is the 164 thousand question???? :cool :cool

Edit add;

I find it hard for root for the Pittsburg as an Oakland Raiders fan but they will get my cheers on Superbowl weekend despite our rivalry because I hate the PAT'S!!!! :lol: :cheers


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## BigJim (Oct 30, 2004)

Just make it loud


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## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

The headers will give a a good tone


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## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

After allot of thought I have decided.

***Equal length***, well built, been out awhile and free shipping, I have an email in to Bob or Holly for only 899.00 shipped.

http://www.pfyc.com/store/merchant....de=GT5005&Product_Count=2&Category_Code=GTEXH


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## BigJim (Oct 30, 2004)

Are they LT's? :cheers-Nm found the site. Those are nice do you know around the hp gains those put out? I'm guessing about 30wrhp? Later. Go Ealgles!:cheers


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## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

Thanks Jim yeah those are them and I even found them cheaper although cheaper isn't always better it's still 40 bucks less even with their free shipping but I sm in communications for long tubes w/o the cats. Some times you have to say what the hell. lol arty: :cool 

I found them for 849.00 with 23.00 in shipping and 899.00 shipped. One claims to only have two sets so I am thinking ok man who is buying all of these and where are the pics???


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## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

To me they look better made than the Kooks and are equal length:

"We knew from previous experience that we wanted to build a long tube 1 ¾" header, and that we wanted to use 3" high flow cats. The GTO also proved challenging in that we wanted to build a one piece header-a slip joint design would make installing and removing them easier, but would also lead to leaks and PCM DTC issues. We opted to have the steering shaft run through the headers, which requires dropping the rack. In reality, it is not a big deal to do on this car and once the rack is out of the way, installing the headers is pretty painless.
CNC MANDREL BENT 1 3/4" PRIMARY TUBE, CNC LASER CUT 3/8" FLANGES, 3" COLLECTOR. INCLUDES 3" PIPES TO MATE TO FACTORY 2 BOLT FLANGE. NO CATS-OFF ROAD USE ONLY"

Race you to them!!!! :seeya:


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## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

pic didn't work.


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## BigJim (Oct 30, 2004)

So you have to drop the steering rack to install the headers? Are Kooks like this as well? :cheers When do you plan on ordering them?


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## GasTiresandOil (Aug 2, 2004)

All long tube headers will require the installer to lower the steering rack. The only headers that will go in without lowering the rack will be the shorties. I am not sure about the mid lengths from SLP though.


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## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

Wasup G?

I talked to Brandon today he has known me and my LS1's for years.
He says headers headers headers and gave me a technical reason as to how it gains its power (vacuum and better release etc) , something I was unlclear about.

He also said your car looks awesome, I told him I had some 18's too so we are gonna hook up next week and GIT R DUN! He hasn't seen my Goat yet.

Jim I am ordering tomorow and yeah he said dropping the driveline is cake they will have a lift where he is working arty: arty: 

It's on like Donkey Kong man!

Oh yeah he also said you can order the 05 hoods with the spray nozzles for 04's from the dealer!

I knew he would have the 411 so I am glad I got ahold of him!

Headers in about a week and a half!

Then tuning and tires and track!!!


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2005)

*zoomies thats the ticket!*

zoomies !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111


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## GasTiresandOil (Aug 2, 2004)

MaxHax said:


> He says headers headers headers and gave me a technical reason as to how it gains its power (vacuum and better release etc) , something I was unlclear about.



Ya, it's amazing that the car he drives with just free mods, headers, and a McLeod single disc has gotten down into the very low 12's. Factory freak for sure! He was running high 12's stock trim. I am going to go with the cam and springs first. I will see how that holds up for most of this year and then get into the exhaust more. I am not worried so much as driving with the headers as I am about the visual at a smog center. 
I am also hesitant because I have the fab a whole cat forward exhaust. Not worried about the price but trying to engineer everything so it can be replaced if needed. I bet by May I will be begging for headers though. Let me know how they go for you. I will personally be getting a set of the 1 7/8" Kooks headers and no cats unless I can find a visual friendly smog shop, then I may reconsider the cats.


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## BigJim (Oct 30, 2004)

I can't wait till you get that thing at the tracl and see what it can do. arty: 
Just curious do you have any plans on getting a stall converter b/c you said that takes around hald a second off your 1/4. :cheers


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## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

Verter?

Oh yeah a 3200 again except this time a Vig. GT&O might know "Mystic" (Mike) he runs a Vig or used too and liked it but it will be the last mod right before 16 in rims and tires. I knew when I bought this A4 a 3200 was in my future but it will probably be about 3-4 months off.

Peace!!

Zoom-------ie's :cool


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## BigJim (Oct 30, 2004)

:cheers :willy:


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