# Replacing chassis/frame



## NELROD (Oct 20, 2011)

Hello all..
Need some advice..I want to replace my frame since mine is rusted out..My question is.. are there numbers on the frame that will make the car a non matching setup will this affect the value? The frame I,m looking at has only surface rust I would just like to drop my body on it.
Thanks.

By the way its a 1968 gto convertible.


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## Josh.AZ.GTO (Jul 11, 2009)

The frames will have VINs stamped into them so a frame from another car would make it a non matching frame. If your going for a numbers matching restoration it will hurt the value slightly .... But if the motor is already non matching a non matching frame would not considerably lower the value of the car. IMO. 


Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app


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## Josh.AZ.GTO (Jul 11, 2009)

Convertible frames are boxed for extra rigidity. Make sure if your going to replace your frame you replace with a convert frame.


Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app


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## 69Goatee (Aug 14, 2009)

I think in some states you need to have the title to the frame too. If it ever needs inspected, they will check the frame numbers and run them to see if it is stolen.


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

Josh.AZ.GTO said:


> Convertible frames are boxed for extra rigidity. Make sure if your going to replace your frame you replace with a convert frame.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app


I too am replacing my frame/chasis and I too have a convertible. I did not know that the convertible frames are boxed in, for I have always only seen frames listed as "1968-1972 GM A-Body frame" and have never seen a convertible frame listed. 

I just looked at my frame on my convertible, and it does not appear to be boxed in, but it does appear to be wider underneath the doors than frames I see listed for sale for the '68-'72 GM A-Body cars.

Does anyone know the difference between a convertible frame and a non-covertible frame? 
Does any one have pics of both frames for comparison?
What would happen if a non-convertible frame is used on a convertible? 
Can a non-convertible frame be boxed in?

Update: oooh I see the difference...the side rails are indeed wider and more like a triangle shaped versus the normal C channel shaped. 

That still leaves my last two questions to be answered....anyone know the answers?


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## NELROD (Oct 20, 2011)

Thanks for the replies guys...Ok so if i do change the frame I would have to keep the title witch i have.. infact i have whole donor car..Do the frame numbers match the vin on dash or firewall how can i tell?
Also would it be better if i cut up the good frame and replace all the rusted parts on to my original frame this is if the frame numers match the car..I plan on doing a frame off restoration.


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

NELROD said:


> Thanks for the replies guys...Ok so if i do change the frame I would have to keep the title witch i have.. infact i have whole donor car..Do the frame numbers match the vin on dash or firewall how can i tell?
> Also would it be better if i cut up the good frame and replace all the rusted parts on to my original frame this is if the frame numers match the car..I plan on doing a frame off restoration.



If I am not mistaken, the VIN is stamped on the upper side of the rear frame, I think it is on driver side, but may be on the passenger side. 


In my opinion, I think if you are going to cut up a good frame to repair a bad frame you are likely make both frames worthless. At the very least, I would sacrifice the "numbers matching" for a good solid (undamaged, uncut, unrepaired) frame.


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## NELROD (Oct 20, 2011)

Hmmm.. not a bad idea mrvandermey....never thought just cutting my numbers and just putting it on the donor..I have to look into that one!


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

So you want to look into fraud/misrepresentation? Numbers matching is mainly the comparison between the drivetrain and the body.


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## NELROD (Oct 20, 2011)

68greengoat said:


> So you want to look into fraud/misrepresentation? Numbers matching is mainly the comparison between the drivetrain and the body.


I'm looking into advise... Also thats why i qouted 
"I have to look into that one!"... are you chiming in to advice against this?


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

I've never been one to advocate changing/transfering numbers. The only reason that practice is done is to deceive. I'm assuming we're talking about a numbers matching vehicle where the engine's vin matches the body and the tranny/rearend matches the PHS doc. If not, the frame doesn't matter. I'm not sure that a non matching frame would affect the value anyway(maybe in a concourse restoration). Unless, there was a non vert frame under a vert. I believe the vin on the frame is on the top of the frame rail(I could be wrong). To see it you would have to raise the body(might be able to see it with a mirror). So, I wouldn't be too concerned.


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## mrdon50 (Oct 21, 2011)

*replacing chassis*

I think you guys put too much store in numbers matching. Even if the #'s match, doesn't mean that it's a never been worked on or had something replaced on it. I would offer that unless you were restoring a rare one of kind optioned car that you were expecting to run through Barrett Jackson for 6-7 figures, if you have a frame that is rusted bad enough that you feel it needs replaced, then replace it. I wouldn't try cutting and splicing pieces from another frame (really hard to keep everything in alignment) because someone looking to buy a #'s car should be smart enough to take a peek underneath and a repaired frame would be easy to spot for guys that know where to look. I'll leave the fraud/misrepresentation arguement to someone else only to say that it's a can of worms better left unopened. Build a good, solid, fast ride and get out and enjoy it.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

cutting the # off and switching it doesnt seem much different than replacing both quarters, both doors, both fenders, floor pan, trunk floor, all the chrome, glass and bumpers, engine and trans and rear diff. what is really left?


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

66tempestGT said:


> cutting the # off and switching it doesnt seem much different than replacing both quarters, both doors, both fenders, floor pan, trunk floor, all the chrome, glass and bumpers, engine and trans and rear diff. what is really left?


I concur. for what is the difference in having an original GTO that is a total basket case and is in need of a total restoriation and switching numbers? I am all against faking numbers or making up your numbers then making paperwork to match, but if you have a numbers car with numbers paperwork to match (from a legitmate car), where is the fraud if you transfer the numbers from basket case car (but real) to donor parts car?


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## mrdon50 (Oct 21, 2011)

66tempestGT said:


> cutting the # off and switching it doesnt seem much different than replacing both quarters, both doors, both fenders, floor pan, trunk floor, all the chrome, glass and bumpers, engine and trans and rear diff. what is really left?


I would say the difference lies in the fact that the 1/4s, doors, fenders, floor pans and trunk floor, chrome,glass and bumpers aren't identified by a VIN # but by a part #. The engine and tranny are date coded and identified to have been placed in specific # body shell. If you would switch the frame # or body tags then later sell this "#'s matching" car to someone without disclosing that you made these type changes, you have misrepresented the car, (fraud) and depending on the amount of money involved you could leave yourself open to all sorts of very costly litigation. I agree with 68greengoat, the only reason for this practice is to deceive. JMO.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

mrdon50 said:


> I would say the difference lies in the fact that the 1/4s, doors, fenders, floor pans and trunk floor, chrome,glass and bumpers aren't identified by a VIN # but by a part #. The engine and tranny are date coded and identified to have been placed in specific # body shell. If you would switch the frame # or body tags then later sell this "#'s matching" car to someone without disclosing that you made these type changes, you have misrepresented the car, (fraud) and depending on the amount of money involved you could leave yourself open to all sorts of very costly litigation. I agree with 68greengoat, the only reason for this practice is to deceive. JMO.


i dont think anybody should misrepresent thier car. but i have to ask, if the vin doesnt refer to the parts you listed then what is left? what do you define as body shell and how much has to be preserved in your opinion?


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## Josh.AZ.GTO (Jul 11, 2009)

Some states are pretty significant when it comes to restoration process. Someone from the state of Florida may have to chime in but if you car is more than 20% of replacement panels from a donor car both titles must be rendered, and a salvage title is issued. I am not from nor have I lived in Florida... but I do believe I have read somewhere in a forum not that long ago searching about such topics as threshold points that this was the case in that state. 

A non matching frame that is in great condition, vs original numbers matching frame that is rusted is worth more to me. IMO. I would just inform any future buyers (if applicable) that the frame is a non matching frame but the CORRECT frame. The frame had a part number and back the late 60s and 70s (from what I understand) frames could be replaced at dealerships if the car took considerable damage in an accident.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

Josh.AZ.GTO said:


> A non matching frame that is in great condition, vs original numbers matching frame that is rusted is worth more to me. IMO. I would just inform any future buyers (if applicable) that the frame is a non matching frame but the CORRECT frame. The frame had a part number and back the late 60s and 70s (from what I understand) frames could be replaced at dealerships if the car took considerable damage in an accident.


that is still true today. not many cars with frames anymore but i have replaced several suv and truck frames.


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## old66tiger (Nov 2, 2011)

Sometimes I sit back and shake my head in amazement. Too much emphasis is put on the numbers match thing. I can see if the engine, trans and rear end don't match the car...but in the case of a frame...there is absolutely NO way you could even see the VIN stamp marks because it is stamped on the top side of the rear frame rail. Cutting up a good frame to patch in a number is absolutely crazy in my opinion. In all honesty, my 66 GTO convert (389 tri-power, M-21, 3:90 car) is worth much more money as a 461 aluminum headed, fuel injected, 5-speed car, and will bring much more money on the block because it seems as if people just don't give that much of a hoot anymore about originality when it comes to these cars. The only ones that bring the kind of money are the rare exceptions where every bolt and stripe are perfect, and probably started out as very rare with no miles on them. Also, no miles, means no enjoyment.

In my opinion, blast the frame, powder coat it and throw it under the car. it will last a long time and no one will ever ask you to lift the body off the frame to check the VIN number.


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## russosborne (Dec 6, 2010)

Unless you live in Ohio and have a car with a salvage title and you want to get it back on the road. They will check every vin location, and if the numbers don't match you had better have a good receipt with the incorrect vin listed on it. 
Something I am going to have to deal with sooner or later. 
Russ


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## mrdon50 (Oct 21, 2011)

66tempestGT said:


> i dont think anybody should misrepresent thier car. but i have to ask, if the vin doesnt refer to the parts you listed then what is left? what do you define as body shell and how much has to be preserved in your opinion?


IMO a #'s matching car would be one that still has all the parts that can be identified by the VIN, including the drivetrain components, and still has all the options that could be identified by the cars build sheet( ie. bucket seats, floor shift, console,sport steering wheel, rally wheels, interior & exterior color etc.) and this includes the frame assembly which is ID'ed by the VIN. The 1/4's,doors,floors,trunk,glass etc. do not have the cars VIN stamped in them anywhere and can not be ID'ed to come from any particular car. I'm not saying that nothing can be changed or repaired or restored but there has to be a point where common sense says "enough already, this isn't just a restoration anymore". 
I agree that no one should misrepresent their car but unfortunately it's done more than we like to think.


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

Well all I know, I have a convertible GTo that is in need of a new frame (my current one has rot, damage and ill repair). I originally purchased a replacement frame just to discover I got a hardtop frame and not a convertible frame. So I sold the one I just go and am about to pick up a new one this week. The one I just sold came from a 1971 GTO/LeMans, and the one I am about to get now comes from a 1970 Skylark convertible. I plan to blast it then powder coat it....so a VIN on the frame is rather irrelevant to me. I just want my GTo to be on the road where I can enjoy it. 

Numbers matching only matters to me if my car was originally numbers matching, but since mine is not (the engine clearly is not a numbers matching), i am essentially looking for correct year, make, model parts than numbers matching.


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