# Help with engine sound.



## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

Hey all, my car finally made its first road test since I assembled the engine and had many obstacles to overcome. I dailed in my timing and carb yesterday and drove it about 2 miles since I did not put the hood on it and I don't think it's street legal without one in PA. I didn't hear anything yesterday when I was running it but today there seems to be a faint slapping or ticking sound coming from possibly the rear of the engine. Please listen to the video below and let me know what anyone thinks it might be. It's not as easy to hear in the video as it is in person, Sorry about that. I have Keith black hyperuetic pistons in it. Could it be piston slap? I also need help uploading a short video of the engine running. It's telling me the file does not have an allowed extension. I trimmed it so it would be under 5mb. The sound seemed to disappear once the engine got up to temp.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

New video by Pat doyne







photos.app.goo.gl





Maybe that'll work..?


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## Sick467 (Oct 29, 2019)

That works. It's always hard to tell from a video, but I'd say...check for exhausts leaks, verify the valves are set right (could be a rocker clicking), beyond that, maybe a lifter. It does not sound like piston slap on the video.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

Sick467 said:


> That works. It's always hard to tell from a video, but I'd say...check for exhausts leaks, verify the valves are set right (could be a rocker clicking), beyond that, maybe a lifter. It does not sound like piston slap on the video.


Could be anything I did the exhaust and set valve lash. I took the breather off the valve covers and listened for any chatter coming from both sides and didn't hear anything. How would I check the valves?


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Could be a vacuum leak? Did you retorque the intake bolts after a couple heat cycles. Same goes for any hardware on the exhaust. This is where a stethoscope or the length of vacuum line stuck in your ear with the other end used as a probe trick may come in handy. I used the latter approach to diagnose a blown header gasket on a Mustang earlier this year. A bit crude, but it does work. May help isolate where the sound is coming from.

I think @Sick467 meant rocker adjustment when he recommended checking the valves. Did you do this with the engine running or zero lashed them one at a time? I did mine one at a time not running. Seems that approach works for some and not for others.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

Jared said:


> Could be a vacuum leak? Did you retorque the intake bolts after a couple heat cycles. Same goes for any hardware on the exhaust. This is where a stethoscope or the length of vacuum line stuck in your ear with the other end used as a probe trick may come in handy. I used the latter approach to diagnose a blown header gasket on a Mustang earlier this year. A bit crude, but it does work. May help isolate where the sound is coming from.
> 
> I think @Sick467 meant rocker adjustment when he recommended checking the valves. Did you do this with the engine running or zero lashed them one at a time? I did mine one at a time not running. Seems that approach works for some and not for others.


I set the valve lash when the engine was on the stand. I might pull the valve covers and make sure there's not a loose rocker. I can re torque the intake bolts as well. Maybe spray some carb cleaner around the engine to ID any leaks. It kind of sounds like it's coming from the back of the engine near the dizzy. But it did go away once I started the engine again when one of my fellow gear head neighbors walked over and I wanted him to take a listen.


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## Sick467 (Oct 29, 2019)

Yeah, valve adjustment/rocker adjustment...same thing to me. The only failsafe way to tighten the rockers/valves down is to do it running with the valve covers off. Loosen them, one at a time, until it clatters, then tighten it until the clatter stops, then give it another 1/4 to 3/4 turn. Shoot for a 1/2 turn...this is for poly-lock nuts. The original nuts where torqued to a set value and left, but the above can work for them too...I strongly advise poly-locks since I had some originals, years ago, that would back off and start talking to me.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Forgot to mention. Easiest way to post videos on here is to upload them to YouTube first then post the link. That eliminates file type/size being an issue.


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## IceBolt (Jul 28, 2020)

I'm no expert but it sounds to me like an exhaust leak; i had one on the passenger side exhaust manifold of my original 400ci. The noise was more pronounced when the engine was cold and/or idling. I changed the exhaust manifold gasket and the manifold. The old heat riser valve was stuck/rusted open so don't know where the leak was coming from but it did stop the noise.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

IceBolt said:


> I'm no expert but it sounds to me like an exhaust leak; i had one on the passenger side exhaust manifold of my original 400ci. The noise was more pronounced when the engine was cold and/or idling. I changed the exhaust manifold gasket and the manifold. The old heat riser valve was stuck/rusted open so don't know where the leak was coming from but it did stop the noise.


I'm working with stock manifolds that are in rough shape. I'm living with a rear main or oil pan drip that I'm going to live with until I can pull the motor and fix. I'm having surgery next week that'll put me out of the game for a few months. So I'm hoping it is just an exhaust leak.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

Sick467 said:


> Yeah, valve adjustment/rocker adjustment...same thing to me. The only failsafe way to tighten the rockers/valves down is to do it running with the valve covers off. Loosen them, one at a time, until it clatters, then tighten it until the clatter stops, then give it another 1/4 to 3/4 turn. Shoot for a 1/2 turn...this is for poly-lock nuts. The original nuts where torqued to a set value and left, but the above can work for them too...I strongly advise poly-locks since I had some originals, years ago, that would back off and start talking to me.


I will try that this week. I have poly locks on mine. I installer a comp cams xe 268 cam. Butler told me it would be the biggest cam I can install without getting into a stall converter. This is my first build I'm just happy it didn't grenade during break in honestly.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Goat noob said:


> I will try that this week. I have poly locks on mine. I installer a comp cams xe 268 cam. Butler told me it would be the biggest cam I can install without getting into a stall converter. This is my first build I'm just happy it didn't grenade during break in honestly.


Sounds like your idle may be a bit high? As pointed out by *Slick467*, best to adjust the valve train as he pointed out with the engine running and warmed up. So get the engine to temp first, then do your adjusting. 

If you have stock stamped rocker arms, buy a set of these rocker arm clips to keep the oil mess down and oil flying around. You can get these from Summit, Amazon, Autozone, O'Reileys, etc. as they can order them if they do not have a set in stock (which most will not). The small tabs go under the rocker arm and the center tab goes over the top and covers the oil spurt hole in the rocker arm to keep oil splash down. Good item to add to your tool box when you have to adjust the valves.



Amazon.com


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

PontiacJim said:


> Sounds like your idle may be a bit high? As pointed out by *Slick467*, best to adjust the valve train as he pointed out with the engine running and warmed up. So get the engine to temp first, then do your adjusting.
> 
> If you have stock stamped rocker arms, buy a set of these rocker arm clips to keep the oil mess down and oil flying around. You can get these from Summit, Amazon, Autozone, O'Reileys, etc. as they can order them if they do not have a set in stock (which most will not). The small tabs go under the rocker arm and the center tab goes over the top and covers the oil spurt hole in the rocker arm to keep oil splash down. Good item to add to your tool box when you have to adjust the valves.
> 
> ...


Thank you. That video was on a cold start as well. I will order those ans adjust the valves this week and report back.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Goat noob said:


> Thank you. That video was on a cold start as well. I will order those ans adjust the valves this week and report back.


When I rebuilt mine and did the break in, I had a ticking that had me nervous. It turned out to be a intake leak...wrong intake gasket. Like mentioned above, use a hose of some sort to listen for the noise. Exactly what I did.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

I pulled a valve cover off and discovered a very loose rocker. I snugged it and fired it up and it sounded much better. I'm still going to investigate for any leaks. I seem to be only pulling 10" of vacuum when I hook my gauge to the carb.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

Goat noob said:


> I pulled a valve cover off and discovered a very loose rocker. I snugged it and fired it up and it sounded much better. I'm still going to investigate for any leaks. I seem to be only pulling 10" of vacuum when I hook my gauge to the carb.


It's sounding much better 









Quick Share


Expired




linksharing.samsungcloud.com


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Goat noob said:


> It's sounding much better
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, much better. It is possible that the lower vacuum could be due to a valve adjustment. You want them set correctly so they are both opening fully and seating closed.

Could be a vacuum leak, dirty air filter(remove the element with engine running to see if vacuum increases), cracked/split rubber hose going to the transmission modulator (if you have one), carb idle screw adjustment, timing, or even a power brake booster. You can pull vacuum hoses and plug to see if vacuum increases. So simply tackle each one, but only do 1 at a time to confirm if a problem or not. If you make any adjustments and they do nothing, return whatever you adjusted back to its original setting and move to the next so this can isolate the lowered vacuum. Stock vacuum is generally 18"-22" depending on cam specs.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

PontiacJim said:


> Yes, much better. It is possible that the lower vacuum could be due to a valve adjustment. You want them set correctly so they are both opening fully and seating closed.
> 
> Could be a vacuum leak, dirty air filter(remove the element with engine running to see if vacuum increases), cracked/split rubber hose going to the transmission modulator (if you have one), carb idle screw adjustment, timing, or even a power brake booster. You can pull vacuum hoses and plug to see if vacuum increases. So simply tackle each one, but only do 1 at a time to confirm if a problem or not. If you make any adjustments and they do nothing, return whatever you adjusted back to its original setting and move to the next so this can isolate the lowered vacuum. Stock vacuum is generally 18"-22" depending on cam specs.


Thank you! My brakes locked up for a second or 2 today when I was backing the car back into my garage. That was a first for that happening. As soon as the oil deflectors come I'll adjust the valves and report back in the meantime if I ID a vacuum leak.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

What caused the loose rocker arm? Normally, once set, they stay put. They get loose if the cam lobe starts to go flat or if an exhaust valve seat starts to recede. Hope it was just an assembly oversight.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

geeteeohguy said:


> What caused the loose rocker arm? Normally, once set, they stay put. They get loose if the cam lobe starts to go flat or if an exhaust valve seat starts to recede. Hope it was just an assembly oversight.


That's scary. I adjusted my valves twice when the engine was on the stand since i was feeling a little paranoid about it. I'm going to keep an eye on it once I get the valves adjusted.


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## AV68 (Aug 18, 2021)

if you are running the stock bottleneck rocker studs you should just torque the rocker nut to spec even with polylock rocker nuts, torque instead of adjusting 1/2 turn past lash method


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

AV68 said:


> if you are running the stock bottleneck rocker studs you should just torque the rocker nut to spec even with polylock rocker nuts, torque instead of adjusting 1/2 turn past lash method


Here is how i adjusted my valves. I have poly locks securing my rockers. I will give them another go around with the method listed earlier with the car running and up up operating temp.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

I was under the impression that for a stock cam you would torque the rockers to a certain setting but I put in a bigger cam than stock and I had to move to an adjustable valve train with the poly locks and adjust them a certain way


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## Sick467 (Oct 29, 2019)

Stock rocker nuts work well with a stock cam and even a bit beefier cam at the original recommended torque value. You did a good thing switching to poly-locks and my recommendation is to set the rocker nuts with it running as earlier noted.

I can't say your video is wrong, but I like a bit more confidence that the rocker that I am adjusting is definitely on the back side of the cam lobe when doing it on the stand. Running is very surefire, while on the stand can be a bit tricky as there is "the finger/twist feel" associated with it. There are quick ways to make multiple adjustments at a given time (while on the stand), given a precise procedure, and there is a way to adjust one rocker at a time. Both work very well. One allows for you to adjust certain rockers, then rotate the crank and adjust others. The other way is to watch to make sure it is on the bcak side of the lobe and then make single adjustments at a time, then moving to the next rocker. I have only done a few engines on the stand, like 5, and a couple still needed adjustments after installed and running. It takes some practice to hit it right on the stand.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

I'm going to adjust my valves with it running this weekend. I appreciate your help!


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

I certainly put the noob in goatnoob. Every single fitting in the intake manifold responded to a quick spray of carb cleaner. I can't think of what they are called for the life of me but see pic below. I will remove these and I assume tefflon tape and or seal them with thread sealer and see what that does for my vacuum reading.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Goat noob said:


> I certainly put the noob in goatnoob. Every single fitting in the intake manifold responded to a quick spray of carb cleaner. I can't think of what they are called for the life of me but see pic below. I will remove these and I assume tefflon tape and or seal them with thread sealer and see what that does for my vacuum reading.
> View attachment 158496


Pipe plugs for sensors, that should make things much better.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

My vacuum is still holding steady at 9". I was adjusting my initial timing from 10⁰ to 12⁰ and as I advanced the timing I could hear and fell the ticking sound coming back and it was coming from inside the HEI distributor cap. Before I pull the cap and investigate has anyone ever experienced this?


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Are you sure you don't have something back there that's just hitting something? Solid line for an oil pressure gauge or something like that? Could also try running it with all the lights out to make sure you don't have an electrical arc.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

Jared said:


> Are you sure you don't have something back there that's just hitting something? Solid line for an oil pressure gauge or something like that? Could also try running it with all the lights out to make sure you don't have an electrical arc.


Not sure. I'm going to dive into it more tomorrow. I was able to feel and hear something tapping on the inside of the dizzy cap. I'm going to take the cap off tomorrow and make sure the rotor isn't hitting something? The rotor is the only thing that moves under the cap right? That can cause interfere at least...?


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## Sick467 (Oct 29, 2019)

My old Cheby 350 truck's HEI dizzy would "click" and did so for a long time...until the spark plug wires got so bad that I finally diagnosed a couple horribly bad wires. Swapped them out, changed the cap & rotor, and the dizzy stopped clicking. I guess the sparkies had nowhere to go but bounce around in the cap. Pretty sure my deal was spark "click".


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

I'm pulling around 15" of vacuum now. I hooked my vacuum pump to my advance and it held and built up vacuum. I'm confused now since my set my timing and tightened the dizzy down my timing marks are going all over the place now. I don't think the cap was secured fully so I fixed that. Could my dizzy be bad? The diz and wires are probably 3 years old.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Goat noob said:


> I'm pulling around 15" of vacuum now. I hooked my vacuum pump to my advance and it held and built up vacuum. I'm confused now since my set my timing and tightened the dizzy down my timing marks are going all over the place now. I don't think the cap was secured fully so I fixed that. Could my dizzy be bad? The diz and wires are probably 3 years old.


Describe "all over the place."

15" at what RPM?

Vacuum advance disconnected?

Distributor weights sticking. Weight springs incorrect, broken, missing, too light.

Timing light error.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

PontiacJim said:


> Describe "all over the place."
> 
> 15" at what RPM?
> 
> ...


The timing mark was doing full revolutions around the balancer. I suspect it's hopefully the light because I went and tuned a friend's timing and carb today in his chevelle and it was doing the same thing and he had a shop do his work. The vacuum advance was disconnected and plugged. My vacuum climbed to 15" when it was at about 12 or 1300 rpms, way too high of an rpm in park with the choke off. My dizzy cap doesn't seem to seat correctly it seems like the fasteners on the cap don't line up with the groves on the dizzy to secure it. I didn't see anything possibly tapping on the cap. I'm 90% sure the tapping sound is coming from inside the dizzy cap. I can feel a tap that goes to the rhythm of the sound.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Goat noob said:


> The timing mark was doing full revolutions around the balancer. I suspect it's hopefully the light because I went and tuned a friend's timing and carb today in his chevelle and it was doing the same thing and he had a shop do his work. The vacuum advance was disconnected and plugged. My vacuum climbed to 15" when it was at about 12 or 1300 rpms, way too high of an rpm in park with the choke off. My dizzy cap doesn't seem to seat correctly it seems like the fasteners on the cap don't line up with the groves on the dizzy to secure it. I didn't see anything possibly tapping on the cap. I'm 90% sure the tapping sound is coming from inside the dizzy cap. I can feel a tap that goes to the rhythm of the sound.


OK. Get a new/different timing light.

Cap should fit securely. The cap may have a small tab that locates it onto the housing. Look for this on your cap and you should see a corresponding notch on the distrib. edge. Some cheapo caps may not be correct in fit. It has to have some form of alignment tab which also acts to hold the cap from turning.

Make sure the 2 cap spring loaded hold down arms are actually catching the underside of the housing. You can over twist them and they don't seat where they are intended because you turn past it.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

A new light should be here in the next few days. I want to verify that my total timing is somewhere between 32⁰ and 36⁰. I spent more time today than I'm proud to admit trying to understand how to do that. I have a balancer that is labeled up to 60⁰ I believe. I put a dab of my wife's nail polish on 0⁰ to set my initial timing. Would I put a dab around 36⁰ to verify my total timing when the dizzy is plugged and the engine is running at 2500-3000 rpms? My cap seems to be secure now (no strange knocking coming from the cap anymore) I also noticed I have an adjustable vacuum advance, is there any reason I would adjust that?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

It depends on your weights and springs for when you reach 2500-3000 for total advance. A dial back light comes in handy here, so you set it to say 32° and when the balancer zeros out you're set..easier than trying to count the marks. I use a Novus digital light, if you input you're motor specs and available fuel octane here people will be able to help you with a timing curve but you can also listen for detonation while lugging the motor down and do some plug reading. Work your way up because detonation will pound your bearings out and put holes in your pistons. Go to the site 4secondsflat.com for a good plug reading guide, I curved my 461 to there specs. Get your timing set without vacuum first then compare it to when it's plugged in, it should be about 10-12° more then adjust the can accordingly.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

Baaad65 said:


> It depends on your weights and springs for when you reach 2500-3000 for total advance. A dial back light comes in handy here, so you set it to say 32° and when the balancer zeros out you're set..easier than trying to count the marks. I use a Novus digital light, if you input you're motor specs and available fuel octane here people will be able to help you with a timing curve but you can also listen for detonation while lugging the motor down and do some plug reading. Work your way up because detonation will pound your bearings out and put holes in your pistons. Go to the site 4secondsflat.com for a good plug reading guide, I curved my 461 to there specs. Get your timing set without vacuum first then compare it to when it's plugged in, it should be about 10-12° more then adjust the can accordingly.


I built a mild street motor, it's a 400. Compression is around 9.5:1. I'm running 93 octane. I have not heard any pinging in the 30ish minutes of runtime the car has had. I do have access to race gas here (it was $10/gallon before gas got more expensive ha) I bought a Innova Pro Timing Lights 5568. If it doesn't have a dial back feature can I just mark on the desired total timing will I have to make that work?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Goat noob said:


> I built a mild street motor, it's a 400. Compression is around 9.5:1. I'm running 93 octane. I have not heard any pinging in the 30ish minutes of runtime the car has had. I do have access to race gas here (it was $10/gallon before gas got more expensive ha) I bought a Innova Pro Timing Lights 5568. If it doesn't have a dial back feature can I just mark on the desired total timing will I have to make that work?


Sorry for the delay the wife and I are on vacation so we're not looking at the phones often. That's the light I have but I couldn't remember the name, it has a dial back feature, I'm certainly not the expert here but you'll get it right with that light and I'm sure others will help out.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

Baaad65 said:


> Sorry for the delay the wife and I are on vacation so we're not looking at the phones often. That's the light I have but I couldn't remember the name, it has a dial back feature, I'm certainly not the expert here but you'll get it right with that light and I'm sure others will help out.


Excellent! Thank you. Enjoy your trip!


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

PontiacJim said:


> OK. Get a new/different timing light.
> 
> Cap should fit securely. The cap may have a small tab that locates it onto the housing. Look for this on your cap and you should see a corresponding notch on the distrib. edge. Some cheapo caps may not be correct in fit. It has to have some form of alignment tab which also acts to hold the cap from turning.
> 
> ...


This^^^. Period. There is no 'close enough' here. The cap MUST click into the slot and lock down tight on each arm. If not, you are chasing your tail and moments away from a non-running car and a lot of plastic pieces under the hood to clean up. Take care of the basics first, ALWAYS.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

geeteeohguy said:


> This^^^. Period. There is no 'close enough' here. The cap MUST click into the slot and lock down tight on each arm. If not, you are chasing your tail and moments away from a non-running car and a lot of plastic pieces under the hood to clean up. Take care of the basics first, ALWAYS.


The I pulled the cap and the rotor was definitely hitting the cap. There are plastic and metal shaving in the dizzy. I'm not sure what kind of dizzy this is. Will any hei rotor work in it or do I need to figure out what make/model it is? I consider myself dumb but lucky on this one.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

That is a standard GM HEI rotor. Install a new rotor and cap, and align the tabs.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I also highlighted my timing marks which helps seeing things. Also everyone's car is different, I tried it with all my advance in at 3000 but it just feels more responsive with it all in at 2100, idk if that's wrong but I like it.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

So you pin striped your timing marks too? Your attention to detail is unmatched @Baaad65


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> I also highlighted my timing marks which helps seeing things. Also everyone's car is different, I tried it with all my advance in at 3000 but it just feels more responsive with it all in at 2100, idk if that's wrong but I like it.
> View attachment 158903



Is that 2100 RPM's with the timing set at "0"?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> Is that 2100 RPM's with the timing set at "0"?


No that's just a still picture I blew up to show the OP a better way to see the timing marks.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> No that's just a still picture I blew up to show the OP a better way to see the timing marks.


I understood the photo. I was inquiring about your Total timing all in at 2,100 RPM's. What is your Initial timing set at, I have forgotten as I know you were posting when setting up your timing back in the day before the "breather caper."


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> I understood the photo. I was inquiring about your Total timing all in at 2,100 RPM's. What is your Initial timing set at, I have forgotten as I know you were posting when setting up your timing back in the day before the "breather caper."


Ah ok, I have a 14° bushing with 22° on the balancer and 10° vacuum advance. I didn’t do comparison drives with different springs I just checked it one day and saw it all in around 2100 so I thought everyone says 2800-3000 so I upped the spring tension, didn't notice a huge difference so I put it back and it seems like it response a little better.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

I setup my new cap I bought a msd cap and rotor (pic below) my old rotor did not have a bushing installed under the rotor and I noticed after installing the bushing in the new cap (under the unit the wires plug into) I had one bushing left over. Should a bushing go under the new rotor between the rotor and weights?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Goat noob said:


> I setup my new cap I bought a msd cap and rotor (pic below) my old rotor did not have a bushing installed under the rotor and I noticed after installing the bushing in the new cap (under the unit the wires plug into) I had one bushing left over. Should a bushing go under the new rotor between the rotor and weights?
> View attachment 158972



Here you go, watch the video:









GM MSD HEI Distributor Cap and Rotor (Red) 8416


GM MSD HEI Distributor Cap and Rotor (Red) 8416




www.eastwood.com


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

PontiacJim said:


> Here you go, watch the video:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks again! Should be alright. He didn't mention anything about a bushing or washer under the rotor, only under the coil. I'm gonna fire it up tomorrow once my new timing light comes. Here's a better pic of how beat my rotor was from the cap not being on


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

So I hooked up my wires and tried to fire it up today. The car sounded like the timing was set too high where it was very labored turning over. I then retarded the timing and it made no improvement. I only removed the cap, do I need to find TDC and verify my timing marks are correct to get the car to start? I only cranked it for a few seconds since I didn't want to keep rolling the dice.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

No bushing under the rotor, ever. The rotor clicks into place and is screwed down. Only goes on one way. Rubber washer goes over the carbon post and under the coil in the cap. You need to verify TDC and your wire position on the cap (firing order and plug wire placement). Very easy to do and you can establish a baseline.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Goat noob said:


> So I hooked up my wires and tried to fire it up today. The car sounded like the timing was set too high where it was very labored turning over. I then retarded the timing and it made no improvement. I only removed the cap, do I need to find TDC and verify my timing marks are correct to get the car to start? I only cranked it for a few seconds since I didn't want to keep rolling the dice.


Maybe as simple as your battery is in need of a full charge? Confirm that first.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

PontiacJim said:


> Maybe as simple as your battery is in need of a full charge? Confirm that first.


I will check that, it is getting cold here but I've had it running just a few days ago without issue. Out of my 4 carbureted vehicles its always been the easiest to fire up


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Goat noob said:


> I will check that, it is getting cold here but I've had it running just a few days ago without issue. Out of my 4 carbureted vehicles its always been the easiest to fire up


OK, always check the simplest first. Hard cranking could be too advanced, but then just arbitrarily retarding the distrib. can be too much, or going the wrong way when it wants more advance.

So get the timing mark on the balancer lined up to around 6-9 degrees, No. 1 piston TDC, then look at your rotor position to see if it looks close. Leave the distrib hold down a little loose, but snug, so you can turn the distrib with a little effort - vacuum line disconnected. Then have your timing gun ready and have someone start the engine and hold the timing gun on the balancer and you should be able to see where the distrib timing is. You can twist the distrib to adjust to bring the timing mark to the 6-9 mark on the timing tab as the engine is cranking or when it fires up. Then get the mark where you want with the timing gun, shut the engine off, and lock down the distrib. Then start it up to see how it fires.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

So I put my finger over #1 spark plug and had my dad bump the starter until i felt compression. My 0⁰ timing mark was way off from there (something like 40⁰ was on the balancer on the timing 0⁰ cover.) I had to turn the engine with a breaker bar to get my mark to line up to about 6⁰ on the timing cover. I pulled the cap and my rotor is not near the wiper motor. I'm still lost on timing and distributor related topics. I didn't pull the dizzy to replace the cap and rotor but will I have to pull it and realign it so the rotor is pointing at the wiper motor on TDC on #1? Here is a pic of my rotor and balancer for reference.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

Goat noob said:


> So I put my finger over #1 spark plug and had my dad bump the starter until i felt compression. My 0⁰ timing mark was way off from there (something like 40⁰ was on the balancer on the timing 0⁰ cover.) I had to turn the engine with a breaker bar to get my mark to line up to about 6⁰ on the timing cover. I pulled the cap and my rotor is not near the wiper motor. I'm still lost on timing and distributor related topics. I didn't pull the dizzy to replace the cap and rotor but will I have to pull it and realign it so the rotor is pointing at the wiper motor on TDC on #1? Here is a pic of my rotor and balancer for reference.
> View attachment 159022
> 
> View attachment 159021


Or am I just overthinking all this and I just need to make run my wires so #1 is where the rotor is pointing?


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

Sorry for the multiple posts. I wired my cap so the rotor is pointing at 1 and installed the rest of the wires accordingly. The engine is cranking much better and I confirmed it is getting spark and fuel but it doesn't seem to want to fire up. I advanced and retarded the timing with no success.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Goat noob said:


> Sorry for the multiple posts. I wired my cap so the rotor is pointing at 1 and installed the rest of the wires accordingly. The engine is cranking much better and I confirmed it is getting spark and fuel but it doesn't seem to want to fire up. I advanced and retarded the timing with no success.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Goat noob said:


> Or am I just overthinking all this and I just need to make run my wires so #1 is where the rotor is pointing?


This is what I would do. Some on here will not agree with this approach, but make your life easy and set #1 where it points now. Installing the distributer on a Pontiac is a huge PIA because you not only want to line up the rotor in the position you want it in but have to deal with the oil pump shaft too.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

Would I have to redo the process to see if the rotor is still pointing at #1 after I did it earlier? Putting in the dizzy sucked when I initially did it. This Part of the process is just so foreign to me for some reason.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

You can be pointed at #1 and have the distributor 180 degrees out. Meaning you set it on TDC exhaust stroke instead of compression stroke. Verify it is on compression stroke and re-check the rotor position. Should fire right up.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Verify you are at TDC based on the compression stroke and if your are sure your timing marks line up 0 and 0, proceed as PJ recommended. As @geeteeohguy said, make sure you are not 180 degrees off. I made this mistake when trying to fire mine up the first time around. Amazing enough, it wouldn't start. That being said, my #1 wire is not where it's supposed to be, I set #1 based on where the dizzy dropped in and installed the rest of the wires accordingly. It's not 100% correct, but neither is my car so who cares.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

Jared said:


> Verify you are at TDC based on the compression stroke and if your are sure your timing marks line up 0 and 0, proceed as PJ recommended. As @geeteeohguy said, make sure you are not 180 degrees off. I made this mistake when trying to fire mine up the first time around. Amazing enough, it wouldn't start. That being said, my #1 wire is not where it's supposed to be, I set #1 based on where the dizzy dropped in and installed the rest of the wires accordingly. It's not 100% correct, but neither is my car so who cares.


I'm on the compression stroke and this is where my timing marks are... should I just get them lined up 0 and 0 and see where my rotor is?


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## Sick467 (Oct 29, 2019)

Forgive me if I have missed this detail in your thread...I have only been half following.

Is your #1 piston at Top-Dead-Center (all the way up in the cylinder)? That's where it has to be to closely check your O to O marks and then onto checking where #1 is at the rotor. Sometimes you can see the piston through the spark plug hole. Other time, with a helper, I have used a piece of coat hanger with a slight bend to it by sticking it in the plug hole and rest it on the top of the pisiton...all the while, some else slowly turns the crank. I just watch and feel for the hanger piece to stop moving up. As you know, this has to be done on the compression stroke. There are tools for "watching" the piston, but this hanger methods will get you close enough to make slight adjustment at the distributor later.


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## AV68 (Aug 18, 2021)

Like Sick467 said be sure that you are on TDC on the compression stroke before you start changing things, Im sure there's another way but I have always pulled the #1 cylinder side valve cover to verify both valves are closed when trying to determine TDC compression
As far as where your rotor is pointing you can change that by pulling the distributor and put a straight slot screwdriver down the hole and turn the orientation of the oil pump drive shaft to make it point in whatever direction works best, in this picture #1 looks like its pointed at the driver side rear carb mounting stud and it makes for a really clean looking wiring loom


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Your timing marks look to be backwards on your balancer. Completely opposite the stock balancers on my cars. You want O on the balancer lined up with the white mark (if it is at all accurate on the balancer and the numbers go the other way). Appears you have a reading up to 40 degrees *ATDC* retarded and only the ability to read 10 BTDC....unless someone spiked my coffee. Regardless, where number one piston is on COMPRESSION stroke TOP DEAD CENTER is* true *TDC, and you need the rotor pointed at number ONE on the cap at that time and all will be golden. You are on the right number one cylinder, I hope? Driver's side front?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Goat noob said:


> I'm on the compression stroke and this is where my timing marks are... should I just get them lined up 0 and 0 and see where my rotor is?


Your engine was rebuilt at the machine shop, correct? So new timing chain/gears, cam, balancer. So I feel you can trust that the timing gears were installed correctly and the balancer is correct.

As pointed out by* Sick467*, you cannot just "wing it" on putting the piston at TDC and think you got it. Just a slight bit off and timing marks will be wrong. You need a piston stop, whether home made of store bought, but you need one that will not move around and be based on what angle you stick the wire/screw driver in and whether or not it is deep enough or hitting th back, side, front of the piston crown.

Here is the procedure. Remove all spark plugs for easier rotation by hand. Bring the piston up to what you believe is TDC. Then use a piston stop that will touch the piston crown and *not move.* Mark your line on the balancer with where that line lines up on the timing marks. Now rotate the engine in reverse until the piston comes back around on TDC and bumps the stop - STOP rotating. Look at the balancer and see where the balancer line lines up with the timing marks. Take your first number and your second number and split the difference. If your first mark showed 10 degrees and then you rotate it in reverse and got 16, 10 + 16 = 26. Divide by 2 = 13. That would indicate that your engine at TDC will have the balancer mark on the 13 degree timing mark on the timing tab. It may also mean the timing marks on the balancer are off. That is where a timing tape comes into play and you stick the timing tape over the balancer on top of the timing mark line to cover it (because it is not correct for your engine) and align the timing tape mark "0" with the timing tab degree "0".

I don't think you should need the tape, just a more accurate way to find TDC and see where the balancer mark is on the timing scale.

Here are some sites on making a piston stop. Seems a bit of work for $5.00 and you need all the tools. You of course can buy one. But I found what appears to be a simpler approach. Still use a spark plug, but instead of drilling/tapping the inside of the spark plug for a threaded bolt or rod, find a bolt that will snuggly fit into the inner hole of the spark plug and a corresponding nut. Once you have piston at TDC, insert the bolt/nut combo and screw it in until it stop on the piston crown and then use the nut to hole the bolt at the "right" depth. Then reverse rotate the engine and have someone put pressure on the head of the bolt to "feel" when the piston crown hits - then stop. If you can weld/braze, you could simply weld/braze th nut onto the spark plug and then screw down the bolt and it would not move. Round off the base of the bolt so it does not dig into the piston and gently rotate the piston into the bolt when reversing the rotating - no hard forcing to hit the bolt.









Wrenchin' Wednesday: How to Build a DIY Piston Stop for Setting TDC


Short of pulling the cylinder head and checking top-dead-center (TDC), a piston stop is the quickest and most accurate way to find TDC with an assembled engine.




www.motortrend.com













Wrenchin' Wednesday: How to build a DIY piston stop for $5


Today we're going to show you how to build a quick and cheap piston stop using a generic spark plug anti-fouler, which costs under $5.




www.hagerty.com


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

I built this engine myself using YouTube and rocky Rotella's "how to build pontiac V's." I was able to hookup my compression tester to verify compression and move my timing mark to 0 with my breaker bar and it backfired a bit so I added some timing and it fired right up. I set my initial timing at 12⁰ and I revved the engine to 3000 with the vacuum advance plugged and light connected. I set my light for 36⁰ and the mark was at the 0 tab on the cover, is that what I'm looking for? I'm only pulling about 10" of vacuum because I still have leaks at the pipe threads on the intake, I tefflon taped and sealed them twice and still have a leak. I used permatex thread sealer... what can I use to seal my intake better? Should I still buy a piston stop and redo the above process. I probably just got lucky with it because I did the process 3 times and on the 3rd time it fired. I'd rather this thing be dialed in 100%. Thanks again for everyone's help.


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## AV68 (Aug 18, 2021)

so you have the engine running now?


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

What others have said here. When you built the engine were the 2 zero marks lined up at TDC? If so, turn the engine over until they are lined up now and don't base it on air coming out of the plug hole. That happens before the engine hits TDC. Once you have the marks lined up, look at where the rotor is pointing, that's where your #1 plug wire will go. Either advance the dizzy a little bit before you fire it or follow PJ's advice from the other day for setting your initial start up timing. Then fine tune it with a timing light once it's running..


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Have you done the break in process, or do you have roller cam? Since you got it running, you will only need the piston stop so you can verify your true TDC and verify that your #'s on your damper match.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I'll say it again: your engine in the photo is showing the balancer at 30 degrees ATDC....which is 30 degrees retarded, if the tape is accurate. Not sure why they made the balancer with 40-50 degrees of readable ATDC numbers and only 10 degrees of advance (BTDC). No way to set total advance with that thing unless you start from scratch and install a timing tape. Strange. What you appear to be doing is trying to correct the quiz with the wrong answer sheet here, from what I can see. If I were there, I'd be able to put my hands on it and fix it. You need compression, fuel, and spark to run, and it has to happen at the right time.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

How does it seem to be running, idling, starting?


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

AV68 said:


> so you have the engine running now?


The engine is running now and sounds good, no unusual knocks from the cap anymore


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

RMTZ67 said:


> Have you done the break in process, or do you have roller cam? Since you got it running, you will only need the piston stop so you can verify your true TDC and verify that your #'s on your damper match.


It has a HFT cam and the break in process is done. I had the car on the road a few weeks ago. I'm taking it easy on the car the first 100 miles before I start pushing it hard.


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## AV68 (Aug 18, 2021)

geeteeohguy said:


> I'll say it again: your engine in the photo is showing the balancer at 30 degrees ATDC....which is 30 degrees retarded, if the tape is accurate. Not sure why they made the balancer with 40-50 degrees of readable ATDC numbers and only 10 degrees of advance (BTDC). No way to set total advance with that thing unless you start from scratch and install a timing tape. Strange. What you appear to be doing is trying to correct the quiz with the wrong answer sheet here, from what I can see. If I were there, I'd be able to put my hands on it and fix it. You need compression, fuel, and spark to run, and it has to happen at the right time.


his balancer looks like the link below from Butlers web site


https://butlerperformance.com/i-24453461-powerbond-pontiac-1968-up-except-301-performance-street-4-bolt-harmonic-balancers-dampers-w-timing-marks-non-sfi-pbo-pb1056st.html?ref=category:1234723


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Goat noob said:


> It has a HFT cam and the break in process is done. I had the car on the road a few weeks ago. I'm taking it easy on the car the first 100 miles before I start pushing it hard.


Did you do a set of runs to seat your rings as well. It is its own process.


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## AV68 (Aug 18, 2021)

Goat noob said:


> The engine is running now and sounds good, no unusual knocks from the cap anymore


Cant ask for more than that, if its running get your vacuum leaks handled before you try to fine tune anything


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

I did a bunch of moderate pulls from different speeds when I had it out, nothing too crazy.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Goat noob said:


> I did a bunch of moderate pulls from different speeds when I had it out, nothing too crazy.


That helps seat your rings. vacuum leaks? Should have sealed the first time...not rocket science stuff. Where at exactly?


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

RMTZ67 said:


> That helps seat your rings. vacuum leaks? Should have sealed the first time...not rocket science stuff. Where at exactly?


Ya I'm confused that I still have them. I taped and sealed them twice. The fittings on the outside of the upper rad hose are leaking and the pcv valve might be leaking. It's hard to tell when I'm spraying carb cleaner in that area. Can someone recommend a better sealer?


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

geeteeohguy said:


> I'll say it again: your engine in the photo is showing the balancer at 30 degrees ATDC....which is 30 degrees retarded, if the tape is accurate. Not sure why they made the balancer with 40-50 degrees of readable ATDC numbers and only 10 degrees of advance (BTDC). No way to set total advance with that thing unless you start from scratch and install a timing tape. Strange. What you appear to be doing is trying to correct the quiz with the wrong answer sheet here, from what I can see. If I were there, I'd be able to put my hands on it and fix it. You need compression, fuel, and spark to run, and it has to happen at the right time.


Timing marks on his damper are correct. I have the same one on mine marked at 0 and at 36 advanced, and some overspray that I didn't notice before. Engine turns clockwise, dizzy turns counter.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Goat noob said:


> Ya I'm confused that I still have them. I taped and sealed them twice. The fittings on the outside of the upper rad hose are leaking and the pcv valve might be leaking. It's hard to tell when I'm spraying carb cleaner in that area. Can someone recommend a better sealer?


I used teflon tape on mine. What plugs did you use?


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

Jared said:


> I used teflon tape on mine. What plugs did you use?


They came with the Edelbrock Performer Intake Manifold I bought from butler. I used Teflon tape the first time and when that didn't help I taped and slopped thread sealer on them. My engine is still pulling 10" of vacuum and gives an Rev when I spray carb cleaner on those plugs.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

Goat noob said:


> They came with the Edelbrock Performer Intake Manifold I bought from butler. I used Teflon tape the first time and when that didn't help I taped and slopped thread sealer on them. My engine is still pulling 10" of vacuum and gives an Rev when I spray carb cleaner on those plugs.


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## AV68 (Aug 18, 2021)

the 2 fittings on either side of the water neck are water passage plugs, leaks at those will not affect vacuum, the one above the waterneck next to the cast Edelbrock name is in an intake runner and would affect vacuum


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

AV68 said:


> the 2 fittings on either side of the water neck are water passage plugs, leaks at those will not affect vacuum, the one above the waterneck next to the cast Edelbrock name is in an intake runner and would affect vacuum


That is good to know. You cut my work in half ha. Thanks.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

A smoke generator would make the job easy. Check all the connections on the carb, and any fittings/plugs on the back of the manifold as well. Those look similar to the plugs I used.


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## AV68 (Aug 18, 2021)

Goat noob said:


> View attachment 159063


I cant tell from the picture but the spiral wound line looks like a mechanical sending unit, if that's your water temp gauge that should be in one of the 2 plugs next to the water neck
the fitting by the Edelbrock logo what do you have hooked up to that?


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

AV68 said:


> I cant tell from the picture but the spiral wound line looks like a mechanical sending unit, if that's your water temp gauge that should be in one of the 2 plugs next to the water neck
> the fitting by the Edelbrock logo what do you have hooked up to that?


The spiral line is more toward the middle of the intake. The old intake that came off my old motor was a torquer 2 manifold so the coolant temp fitting was too small to hook up in the correct place on the new intake. The fitting by the logo is going to my transmission (th400) is it possible I am not getting an accurate coolant temp reading with the unit not in the correct place?


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## AV68 (Aug 18, 2021)

your coolant temp sending unit needs to be in a water jacket, do you have a picture of where its hooked up?


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

AV68 said:


> your coolant temp sending unit needs to be in a water jacket, do you have a picture of where its hooked up?


I'm sure I can run a new line and get the correct size fitting. That was just me being lazy and wanting to rush since I was at the tail end of the build. Rookie mistake indeed.


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## AV68 (Aug 18, 2021)

that's an intake runner (vacuum), get a brass bushing reducer for 1/4" NPT to 3/8" NPT to move the sending unit to the water crossover


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

AV68 said:


> that's an intake runner (vacuum), get a brass bushing reducer for 1/4" NPT to 3/8" NPT to move the sending unit to the water crossover


I'm 90% sure when I removed the fitting it was submerged in coolant...


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

Here's 2 better photos of my setup. Any guidance is much appreciated.


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## AV68 (Aug 18, 2021)

its the intake runner you can see where it goes in the picture below (the four oval ports are the intake runners, round ones in the front are the water crossovers)
the bushing Im talking about to move your sending unit in the second pic


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

AV68 said:


> its the intake runner you can see where it goes in the picture below (the four oval ports are the intake runners, round ones in the front are the water crossovers)
> the bushing Im talking about to move your sending unit in the second pic
> View attachment 159078
> View attachment 159079


Perfect! I will get the correct reducer to relocate my coolant temp unit. Should I only plug my trans vacuum line in the intake runner and block the other?


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## AV68 (Aug 18, 2021)

Block the other one off, I use a vacuum port on the carb itself for the trans modulator but it’s fine either way


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Free recommendation here. I'd replace the rubber fuel line with braided line and AN fittings at some point in the near future. What you have is OK while you get it running, but not a great long term set up. You have it routed the same way I have mine and there is the potential for chaffing. I'd hate to see you have an engine fire after all of this hard work. This was taken while I was tuning mine so excuse the crudely plugged vacuum line. That came from the dizzy. I cleaned all that up once I got it running right. Added bonus is you can also where I have my temp sende hooked up.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Did anyone find out why it wouldn't run and then all of the sudden ran fine?


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

geeteeohguy said:


> Did anyone find out why it wouldn't run and then all of the sudden ran fine?


 My theory is on the 3rd attempt of finding tdc on the compression stroke I got close enough to tdc without using a piston stop that it worked when I set my rotor pointing to #1. I'm interested in anyone's thoughts on this and what they think could have happened.. but my guess is luck.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I've never used a piston stop to find TDC compression. Just my finger over the hole while turning it over. Hundreds of hundreds of times when I was in the industry. Just for installation of distributors, not engine assembly, etc. I suspect you had the distributor 180 our initially. Very easy to do.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

geeteeohguy said:


> I've never used a piston stop to find TDC compression. Just my finger over the hole while turning it over. Hundreds of hundreds of times when I was in the industry. Just for installation of distributors, not engine assembly, etc. I suspect you had the distributor 180 our initially. Very easy to do.


Is it possible that I completed my engine break in and drove the car with it 180 out?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Goat noob said:


> Is it possible that I completed my engine break in and drove the car with it 180 out?


Nope. Not at all. 
I wonder what's going on with your car?


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

geeteeohguy said:


> Nope. Not at all.
> I wonder what's going on with your car?


Could be a number of things, I did put it together haha. I'm going to try to resolve my vacuum issues and readjust my valves this week and if I can't achieve a higher reading than 10" of vacuum then I'll be concerned for sure. I tell myself if I really did something wrong during assembly the engine would have died on be by now. It ran for 30 min during break in and while I only drove it a few miles it's probably had at least another 30-45 min idle time just in my driveway.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

10" vacuum means either you have severely retarded ignition timing, or a huge camshaft with a ton of duration and lift. A stock GTO of your era should have between 18-21" hg at idle speeds.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

geeteeohguy said:


> 10" vacuum means either you have severely retarded ignition timing, or a huge camshaft with a ton of duration and lift. A stock GTO of your era should have between 18-21" hg at idle speeds.


I asked butler for the biggest cam I could run without a stahl converter. I put comp cams xe268h CCA-51-223-4
Lift .477"/.480" Duration 268/280 RPM Range 1600-5800. We know I'm not a genius when it comes to my timing and distributor related items but if my initial timing is at 12⁰, that wouldn't be considered retarded right?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Not retarded if initial is 12. Your cam may well be the source of low vacuum at idle.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

That's a lot of duration but what's the LSA? No expert for sure but if you have a higher degree of overlap you can gain more vacuum for brakes and such, mine is 114. Also allows me to run higher idle timing because cylinder pressure is lower thus burning off the un used fuel at idle keeping the plugs clean and no gassy exhaust.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

Baaad65 said:


> That's a lot of duration but what's the LSA? No expert for sure but if you have a higher degree of overlap you can gain more vacuum for brakes and such, mine is 114. Also allows me to run higher idle timing because cylinder pressure is lower thus burning off the un used fuel at idle keeping the plugs clean and no gassy exhaust.


110 LSA according to Google. I can't find any of the paper work from when it came to my house. I bought a vacuum pump that is connected to my brake booster a few years back when I converted my front drums to brakes. So I'm not so much concerned about the braking ability as much as I am just trying to ensure that the engine is pulling as much vacuum as it is capable of.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

Goat noob said:


> 110 LSA according to Google. I can't find any of the paper work from when it came to my house. I bought a vacuum pump that is connected to my brake booster a few years back when I converted my front drums to brakes. So I'm not so much concerned about the braking ability as much as I am just trying to ensure that the engine is pulling as much vacuum as it is capable of.


*drums to disc.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Goat noob said:


> 110 LSA according to Google. I can't find any of the paper work from when it came to my house. I bought a vacuum pump that is connected to my brake booster a few years back when I converted my front drums to brakes. So I'm not so much concerned about the braking ability as much as I am just trying to ensure that the engine is pulling as much vacuum as it is capable of.


That's going to be less vacuum out of the box, I have about 15.5 inches with a 236/242 but that's before the 1.65 rockers. I know the last thing you want to do is think about a cam change right now but if you get this dialed in see how you like it and maybe get some recommendations here according to your motor specs or from Butler. I know you asked Butler for the biggest cam but did they go over your engine, trans and diff specs...and what you wanted out of your car?


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

Baaad65 said:


> That's going to be less vacuum out of the box, I have about 15.5 inches with a 236/242 but that's before the 1.65 rockers. I know the last thing you want to do is think about a cam change right now but if you get this dialed in see how you like it and maybe get some recommendations here according to your motor specs or from Butler. I know you asked Butler for the biggest cam but did they go over your engine, trans and diff specs...and what you wanted out of your car?


That is good to know that the cam could be lowering the vacuum so in not chasing my tail. I'm going to blow some smoke into my intake and see what comes out. Butler did ask a lot of questions when I reached out to them about the cam recommendation. My car is stamped for a 3.23 rear end but I have not verified that. I have a pretty bad rear main or oil pan leak currently. I'll probably get my hands on a cherry picker and pull the engine next year. So after a season of driving the car I'll know if I like this cam or not for sure.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Low vacuum is probably just something you're going to deal with on your current set up. Since you are already running a vacuum pump for the brakes, the low vacuum doesn't really matter. There were muscle cars that came without power brakes as an option for this exact reason (Olds W31 was one). They installed a cam that would not build enough vacuum to run brakes right from the factory. Check for leaks anyway, because that will give you piece of mind, but it sounds like you are chasing an issue that is priobably not an issue.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

With your cam, a 3.55-.3.73 rear gear, headers, and manual brakes would be the proper fit. It's too 'rowdy' for power brakes, 3.23 gears, and stock log manifolds. All it'll give you is rough idle and crappy low-end drivability. A cam needs to be matched to the rear end gear and trans and fuel and exhaust systems. 
Also, in general, there is mis-information about a cam 'bleeding off' compression or cylinder pressure at low RPM, which allows less octane fuel or higher initial timing. Be advised that this may work with enough compression bleeding off at low rpm, but when the cam is in its power band, it will fill the cylinders MORE than the stock cam, and will cause detonation that can lead to severe engine failure. I have blown one up this way, and have seen others do the same.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

geeteeohguy said:


> With your cam, a 3.55-.3.73 rear gear, headers, and manual brakes would be the proper fit. It's too 'rowdy' for power brakes, 3.23 gears, and stock log manifolds. All it'll give you is rough idle and crappy low-end drivability. A cam needs to be matched to the rear end gear and trans and fuel and exhaust systems.
> Also, in general, there is mis-information about a cam 'bleeding off' compression or cylinder pressure at low RPM, which allows less octane fuel or higher initial timing. Be advised that this may work with enough compression bleeding off at low rpm, but when the cam is in its power band, it will fill the cylinders MORE than the stock cam, and will cause detonation that can lead to severe engine failure. I have blown one up this way, and have seen others do the same.


I gave up on the headers. I couldn't get them installed when dropping this engine in. Ram air manifolds were not in stock anywhere at the time so I settled for stock manifolds. I'm going to figure out what rear is in my car and take it for another road test soon. I'm having trouble getting my hood to line up and close without making contact with the passengers side fender. I have to wait for help with that, my arm is in a sling for the next 4 weeks due to surgery from a muscle tear but I'm doing what I can. Appreciate the help as always.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Goat noob said:


> I gave up on the headers. I couldn't get them installed when dropping this engine in. Ram air manifolds were not in stock anywhere at the time so I settled for stock manifolds. I'm going to figure out what rear is in my car and take it for another road test soon. I'm having trouble getting my hood to line up and close without making contact with the passengers side fender. I have to wait for help with that, my arm is in a sling for the next 4 weeks due to surgery from a muscle tear but I'm doing what I can. Appreciate the help as always.


The Hedman shorty headers drop right into place. Didn't have to jack the engine off the mounts or anything on mine. Only issue I ran into on the install was the factory log manifold head pipes were supposed to line up with the collectors. This was not the case on the drivers side. The angle of that pipe was off by a good 3 inches. Luckily, I had ordered the wrong head pipes the first go around and had an extra right one that lined up perfect when installed on the left side. Cut the pipe and collector to match up, and some ugly booger welds (I may clean these up at some point) and it's been good to go.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

Jared said:


> The Hedman shorty headers drop right into place. Didn't have to jack the engine off the mounts or anything on mine. Only issue I ran into on the install was the factory log manifold head pipes were supposed to line up with the collectors. This was not the case on the drivers side. The angle of that pipe was off by a good 3 inches. Luckily, I had ordered the wrong head pipes the first go around and had an extra right one that lined up perfect when installed on the left side. Cut the pipe and collector to match up, and some ugly booger welds (I may clean these up at some point) and it's been good to go.


I'll take a look into those. I just ordered down pipes from pypes and I didn't have any issues cutting my pipes and putting them together with an adapter piece. I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to take it to a shop and have the adapters welded. Anytime I can get something done in an afternoon is a win for me.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Goat noob said:


> I'll take a look into those. I just ordered down pipes from pypes and I didn't have any issues cutting my pipes and putting them together with an adapter piece. I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to take it to a shop and have the adapters welded. Anytime I can get something done in an afternoon is a win for me.


I documented most of the process and posted it in the exhaust forum last spring. One thing I would strongly suggest is going with the coated headers. I got the painted ones and removing the temporary shipping paint was a huge PIA.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

Jared said:


> I documented most of the process and posted it in the exhaust forum last spring. One thing I would strongly suggest is going with the coated headers. I got the painted ones and removing the temporary shipping paint was a huge PIA.


I would be interested to hear thoughts on ram air manifolds vs shorty headers. I have long tube headers that I failed to install but maybe next time the engine is out of the car I can make it happen my taking the oil pan off.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

I was planning on going with the RA manifolds on mine but could not get them. I had an order for a pair with the 2.5" outlets with RARE for almost a year. I reached out to very other supplier and got the same story. Cancelled the order, and placed one for the shorties which showed up in a couple days. As far as performance goes, I've heard there isn't much difference between the shorty headers and the RA manifolds. From what little you can see, the headers look slightly better.

Excuse the spots on the valve covers, I popped a heater hose and hadn't cleaned up the mess. They are spot free now. Same with the wiring, I swapped out the under hood harness and battery cables after this was taken as well.


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## Goat noob (Apr 16, 2021)

They do look good! No need to apologize, I don't think I'll ever have a clean engine bay.


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