# Engine Size question



## 68-GTO (Oct 20, 2013)

Hi Guys,

i´ve bought a 68 GTO.
there is a souped up 327 chevy engine in the car.

now i want a other engine.
i would take a 572 chevy engine.
But i´m not sure, how it fit between the inner fender, and i wont trouble with the steering...

What is in your 68 GTO for an engine?

Thanks for answer, Manuel


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## Icefan71 (Apr 7, 2011)

You could probably put any big block Chevy engine in there with the right frame/motor mounts. I have to ask, why a Chevy engine? Why not a Pontiac engine in your GTO?


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## 68-GTO (Oct 20, 2013)

Because in him is a 327 chenvy engine and a turbo 400 tranny.

When i want change to Pontiac hardware i must the engine mounts change too.
And a other tranny i need then.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

You_ can_ put a Pontiac back in it. Frame mounts are easy to change and you could run an adapter plate to make the trans work or buy and engine trans together. The Turbo 400 is strong but the 572 will make a lot more power than the 327 that is in there so you will probably have to go through it and build it to take the power.

That said I have a BBC in my GTO and anything that will fit a Chevelle will work on your GTO as they are sister cars sharing the same GM A body platform/frame.


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## 68-GTO (Oct 20, 2013)

ALKY thanks for your answer.

you must know, that i have in my garage a 4l80e with TCI TCU and a first gear ratio like a 700r4.
when i take the 572 than the 4l80e work with it together.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

So now the question is.....which 572 are you going with?

Also please realize that you should do some frame reenforcements when adding this much power. Specifically I would suggest a rollcage tied into your rear crossmember and frame. And I also recommend with an upgrade in GO that you also upgrade the WHOA and put some good brakes on your GTO. 

"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will."

Frederick Douglass


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## 68-GTO (Oct 20, 2013)

This is the Engine:
Fullsize Page 109 of 2010 GM Performance Parts

Did you have pics from the modify at frame?
What you meen with GO and WHOA?

Brakes i would take some wilwood rotors and calipers.


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## Orion88 (Apr 24, 2012)

For as much money as a Crate 572 big block and a 4l80e rebuid would set you back, why not build your own Pontiac motor? A 400 or 455 can easily be built up to give you all the power and ESPECIALLY all the torque you could ever find a use for. Even if you don't do the build yourself I feel like you could easily get as much out of a built up Pontiac motor as that 572 Crate Chevy engine, and probably for less money.


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## 68-GTO (Oct 20, 2013)

when i must build anything, i do it by myself, that´s no prob.
the tranny i have here, but i dont have a pontiac tranny or a pontiac engine.
because this i would take a chevy engine.

and here is a good offer:
572 CU in 650HP BBC Chevy Engine OnSale 1 Only Dart Splayed Blocks All New | eBay

pointiac parts are very rar here in Germany, but for the chevy engines it give a lot of repair parts.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Orion88 said:


> For as much money as a Crate 572 big block and a 4l80e rebuid would set you back, why not build your own Pontiac motor? A 400 or 455 can easily be built up to give you all the power and ESPECIALLY all the torque you could ever find a use for. Even if you don't do the build yourself I feel like *you could easily get as much out of a built up Pontiac motor as that 572 Crate Chevy engine, and probably for less money*.


Sorry, but no.


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

You can get every Pontiac part in Germany if you order it from the US. Shipping isn't cheap, but I promise every Pontiac or Chevy engine part will be cheaper if you buy it from the US (at Summit or somewhere else) than it will be in Germany or anywhere in Europe.

If you want to build a "race car only" you can get this Chevy 572 (I like that engine as well) but on the street here it will get you into trouble very soon as it isn't legal to use such an engine in your car and it is pretty obvious that it doesn't belong there. If you make it look like a Pontiac engine you may have success, but why would one want to do that? 

I'd sell what you already have and get me a nice Pontiac engine and transmission.. also the rear end may need replacement if you plan on that much power. Upgrade in brakes and suspension is needed anyway!

If your plans are made go ahead and use the Chevy 572... 650hp won't be easy with a Pontiac engine and if you manage to get it to that level the 572 Chevy will be cheaper for sure... But if you own a Pontiac and want it to behave like a Pontiac.. get Pontiac parts


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## 68-GTO (Oct 20, 2013)

yes fure sure, in US i can order anything. but for the chevy engines we have a lot of parts almost here.

i have from my old car a GM 12 Bolt rear end with a 3,73 ratio here, the inside is with moser parts. i think the rear end can handle the 572.

but your right, usually in a pontiac came pontiac parts.

yesterday i bought the engine, and it´s possible, when it´s here i sell them.
the price is nice and here in Germany they want pick me the engine from my hand.
usually this engine here cost, about 10- 16 US grand, also i became the money which i payd, for sure back.

Perhaps you can show me an engine builder only for strong pontiac engines?


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## Chris-Austria (Dec 23, 2010)

Butler Performance sells nice engines... but you'd have to ship it to Germany.
Pontiac 350 389 400 421 455 engines / Pontiac Stroker Engines

In Germany there is Start-Yankee Motors in Nürnberg. They are not a performance shop but they can build the engine to your specs if you give the parts to them. They told me about a Pontiac engine that created 630hp. But it will be more expensive than your 572!

And yes, the rear end sounds nice, should be good  If it was my car and I could invest that much money and want to build one of the strongest Pontiacs around I'd get a strong 5 or 6 speed manual transmission and an engine from Butler, maybe their 700hp pump gas powerplant


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## Knuckledragger (Nov 25, 2011)

Not sure about the 572 since it is a late model engine, but gen IV big blocks needed different frame brackets for the motor mounts. Small bock Chevy and Pontiac motor mounts are in the same place. Everything bolts together, you just need the right components.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

68-GTO said:


> Perhaps you can show me an engine builder only for strong pontiac engines?


My favorite is Jim Lehart at Central Virginia Machine Service - Home of the ***** Engine!. Yes, he's in the states but I know he's built engines for overseas customers before, including this guy - who refuses to deal with anyone other than Jim.










I know there are more videos of this car out there, but for some reason I can't seem to locate them right now.

Bear


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## 68-GTO (Oct 20, 2013)

Thanks for your answer.
now i wait that my GTO and the engine come here to Germany.
in next week we start shipping.
when its all here, i ´m going to look, that i can sell the 572 - that is no problem, much people here search an engine like this.

when the car is here i must do a new paintjob because the old paint is broken and has many bubbles. that is no prob, because i know it before i bought the car.

then i must look for the rear end, i think the oem 10 bolt dont like a strong engine.
perhaps a 9" ford from moser or currie come in.
the driveshaft also must new and brakes and suspension too.
the new engine cam at least, when all other is ready to handle it.

i think that is the right way and i have time for thinking about the engine.
also i can let make me some offers and want then look which engine is for me the right.

i´m happy that i have found this forum and locked me in, its great here!
good topics and many information and a lot of ideas for me by nice guys.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Did you ever get your GTO delivered? Have you driven it yet?


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## 68-GTO (Oct 20, 2013)

no, it is in the second january week here.
then the motor and 30 other parts here too.
all is in the same container.
I have checked the VIN and the GTO has by last selling an Bigblock in his, the pictures are look to the same motor.
I dont know what is happend now, but i know where i my way. :cheers


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## 68-GTO (Oct 20, 2013)

i wish you all a happy new year and for me the key is health!

here some news for you guys.
my GTO is now on the Ship and its started at 12.31.13.
now it need 15 days to arrive in Rotterdam (Netherland).
Than i can pick him up there.










i have wrote a lot of e-mail with currie, Moser and Strange - for my new Rear end.
on Monday 01.06.14 i start an order for my S60 Strange Rear end.

It has about 3,73 gear ratio with S-trac helical gear differential.
and with Wilwood 11" brakes.

Now i´m looking for an Suspension & Handling Upgrade did you can give advice to me?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

That S60 rear you have coming will take anything you throw at it, power-wise. The 3.73 gears are too "low" for street use unless you also use and overdrive transmission. They'd be OK for street-cruising in town, or in a pure race car, but at highway speeds the engine would be spinning at 3500 rpm or more without overdrive.

If you're going to be carrying enough power to need that S60, then I also strongly recommend a good set of control arm mount braces and adjustable upper/lower control arms on the rear. Add a good set of shocks, good springs, and an adjustable sway bar and you should be set for the rear.
I'm using these parts on my car:
1968-1972 GM A-Body Control Arm Reinforcements/Frame Braces [4028] - $110.49 : UMI Performance, Inc.
Chevelle Rear Upper Control Arms | A-Body Rear Upper Control Arms |627
Chevelle Rear Lower Control Arms | A-Body Rear Lower Control Arms |225
Chevelle A-Body Adjustable Pro Touring Rear Sway Bar | 918
Strange Engineering S5064 Double Adjustable Rear Shock

On the front, I'm currently running factory control arms with polyurethane bushings,
aftermarket sway bar, and adjustable shocks.
Chevelle Front Sway Bar | A-Body Front Sway Bar | Malibu Frt Sway Bar
Prothane 7-222 Oval Polyurethane Front A-Arm Bushings 67-72 GM A-Body
Strange S5263 Single Adjustable Front Shock | 78-87 G-Body 68-72 ABody

I also had my original power steering unit rebuilt and converted into a quick-ratio unit by these guys:
Power Steering Services - Rebuild or exchange, lifetime warranty, competitive pricing, personalized service, 12:1 quick ratio conversions

I like the way my 69 GTO drives and handles now. If I ever decide to step it up, I'll probably go with adjustable coil-overs (to gain control over ride height) and tubular front control arms.

The only other suspension change I've made has been to add a set of AirLift "drag bags" to the rear springs. The main reason I added these was to compensate for the extra weight in the trunk (luggage, tools, spare parts) when I took the car on the Hot Rod Power Tour this past summer. (We had a blast).
1969 Pontiac Gto Air Bag Suspension Kits | Air Lift Company

For reference, my car is a 69 GTO carrying a 461-inch stroked 400 that's making "just over" 500 HP. It has run a best of 11.86 @ 113 so far at the track. In addition to the suspension parts I listed above, it has a Moser 9" rear with 3.50 gears and a Wavetrac differential. The transmission is a beefed-up TH400 behind a 10" converter that stalls just above 3000 rpm. At 70 mph, the engine is turning about 3200 rpm with the gears and tires I have on it now. That's too much for regular highway use in my opinion. We were OK on the Power Tour this summer but I know that trip put more wear on the engine than I would have liked and I -still- haven't found the courage to total up all of my fuel receipts..  

The car feels solid on the road and I love driving it. The suspension now has a much better feel than it did with the original factory parts, which I credit mostly to the parts I've changed - especially on the rear.

Bear


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## 68-GTO (Oct 20, 2013)

thats nice!
my tranny is a 4l80e and also an overdrive is set.
the frame braces i have here from hotchkis, it where an auction in Ebay US.
an Eibach coil spring Kit i have here too and the lift bags are already installed. 

i had think about a coil over conversion, but i´m not sure what is better.
the stand alone shocks or adjustable coil overs.
Why you take the tubular arms with a coil over conversion?
i have seen some kit´s to built in the oem arms.

The sway bars and upper / lower Arms are nice!
i think i´m going to order them in next week.

what can i make to minimize the twist from the frame?


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

68-GTO said:


> thats nice!
> what can i make to minimize the twist from the frame?


Box the frame ( I used 10 gauge sheet metal bent on a brake to fit the frame like the convertible frame has) and I would recommend a rollbar or cage.

Also I would recommend having a new trans crossmember fabbed or use the Chevelle crossmember that actually bolts in. The factory GTO crossmember sits in isolator bushings that I just wouldn't trust for a high horsepower build.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

The reasons I'd go to tubular front A-Arms would be to save weight, improve rigidity, and also as part of a conversion to coil overs. I doubt that I'd bother to change them out unless I was also going to coil-over springs/shocks. Removing weight from the front of the car is one of the better ways of improving traction.

The main reason I'm attracted to coil-over suspension is the idea of gaining more adjustability over both extension/compression, spring rates, and ride height. I've not yet competed on a twisty track or autocross so I'm not all THAT concerned about gaining handling beyond what I already have (which feels pretty darn good to me but I'm no expert).

I :agree with what Alky had to say about boxing the frame and using a bolt-in transmission cross member. I widened my stock crossmember by welding on additional metal to the ends then drilled bolt holes in it. Having adjustable upper rear control arms permitted me to easily correct all the driveshaft angles to compensate for the slight lowering of the transmission tail that was caused by doing that. I didn't box my frame - but I wish I had now.

Bear


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## 68-GTO (Oct 20, 2013)

box the frame is a lot of work... puhhh
the complete frame or only where is the tranny crossmember and there where is the rear end?
i aks because i dont understand why i can or must box the frame by the front of the car.

the new crossmember for the 4l80e is direct bolt to frame w/o bushings.

ok- than i take the QA1 coil overs for front and rear, i thiunk that is the better choice too.
but i dont take tubular arms - the coil overs i bolt in the oem arms.

i read a lot of corvette c5 Spindels for the front end with 4 piston calipers.
i think that is a good choice.
parts are easy to order but 17" rims are must be.

and my greates trouble is the right diameter from the rear tyres for enough traction...... 

what you think?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

The whole "taller spindle" swap to correct the so-called "negative camber" problem isn't something I buy into. It looks good in theory, but there's a side-effect that people don't talk about and that's the bump steer problem that gets created because with the taller spindles, the steering linkage is no longer parallel with the control arm axis. It is possible to make this swap correctly, but getting it done without introducing bump steer is a lot more difficult and work intensive than just swapping a few parts.

To get the benefits of a boxed frame you don't necessarily have to box it all the way from front to back. Adding a some boxing plates at intervals will still help.

With regard to tires I always recommend using a measuring tool on your car to find out exactly what will fit in terms of diameter and width, as well as what wheel backspacing is needed. I personally use a "Percy's WheelRite Tool" for this purpose. Of course changing tire diameter is also going to affect calibration on the speedometer so you might need to make adjustments there. Also the type of tire makes a difference. I run Nitto NT555R drag radials on the rear of my car (P275/60 R15) year round. They seem to be a pretty good compromise between bite, longevity, and wet performance.

Bear


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

I just boxed the frame in the open section where it is the widest under the doors. Not that hard to do really although I had my body off the frame when I did it. Still possible with body on frame though and I highly recommend it. I had to run the brake and fuel lines through there also so don't forget about those. 

Also my rollbar ties in to the rear suspension mounting points and also has a bar that connects the lower control arm mount on the frame to the vertical bar on the cage. That ensures the rear suspension and rear crossmember are totally tied into the frame and rollbar. 

You are putting some serious HP into a car that was designed for half that power.....think about it. Also on brakes I run the factory disc up front (slotted Baer disc) and also 11" disc on the back and my car stops great. I did convert to all manual disc using a 68 Corvette master cylinder but now I run the Wilwood MC, either way will work you just need to adjust the length of the brake pushrod if you have power brakes now. Or do the hydroboost setup which I believe BearGFR has.


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## 68-GTO (Oct 20, 2013)

BearGFR said:


> The whole "taller spindle" swap to correct the so-called "negative camber" problem isn't something I buy into. It looks good in theory, but there's a side-effect that people don't talk about and that's the bump steer problem that gets created because with the taller spindles, the steering linkage is no longer parallel with the control arm axis. It is possible to make this swap correctly, but getting it done without introducing bump steer is a lot more difficult and work intensive than just swapping a few parts.
> 
> To get the benefits of a boxed frame you don't necessarily have to box it all the way from front to back. Adding a some boxing plates at intervals will still help.
> 
> ...


OK i understand the trouble with the C5 spindles, than it´s better to take a Wilwood or Bear bolt in system, i think there where fit better right?

When the car is here i must look who good or bad is the condition from the frame and the sheetmetal, perhaps i must take the body off, then i boxed it complete.

Percy's WheelRite Tool who cool is this thing!:cheers
i have order it yet!arty:
Here in Germany a part like this it doesnt gives!!

here in Germany i must run tyres with an E-DOT and also must be authorized for street driving.
I have here found a tyre "Toyo Proxxes R888" it is a semi slick with e-dot.
i have read of lot of the tyre and the most customer says that he had good bite when he has enogh heat degrees, when not he is not easy to drive and when it is wet he is like soap! 

The adjustment from Speedo it easy because by my 4l80e is the TCI TCU on board and there i must only change a few parameter



ALKYGTO said:


> I just boxed the frame in the open section where it is the widest under the doors. Not that hard to do really although I had my body off the frame when I did it. Still possible with body on frame though and I highly recommend it. I had to run the brake and fuel lines through there also so don't forget about those.
> 
> Also my rollbar ties in to the rear suspension mounting points and also has a bar that connects the lower control arm mount on the frame to the vertical bar on the cage. That ensures the rear suspension and rear crossmember are totally tied into the frame and rollbar.
> 
> You are putting some serious HP into a car that was designed for half that power.....think about it. Also on brakes I run the factory disc up front (slotted Baer disc) and also 11" disc on the back and my car stops great. I did convert to all manual disc using a 68 Corvette master cylinder but now I run the Wilwood MC, either way will work you just need to adjust the length of the brake pushrod if you have power brakes now. Or do the hydroboost setup which I believe BearGFR has.


a cage and a roll bar looks like a racer, i like these look, but dont for my GTO.
i will that he looks like oem.
the most parts that i change you dont see when the hood is closed.:cool
perhaps you can hear it - that is OK. :lol:

disc brake at front with PB he had.
and with my new rear end he has 11" rear discs too.
Which WilwoodMC it is?


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