# Lifter reccomendation



## SRC (Sep 1, 2021)

I have a 65 389 which has less than 2k miles since complete rebuild. I believe Jim Mott did the rebuild. It has a Howards cam with the 068 profile, stock rockers a short polylocks. I have adjusted this valve train until I was blue in the face, and finally succumbed to a hot/running adjustment. What I found was a couple of the valves can be adjusted to quiet, but then within 30 seconds become noisy again. This happens sporadically sometimes quiet then clacking then quiet.
The engine runs extremely strong, oil pressure is 40-50 at idle.

I suspect I have a couple bad lifters and have decided to replace them all. This is the issue, I wanted to buy a set of Johnson lifters through Butler, but they are on indefinite backorder. What brand and source would you guys recommend?
Please no cheap off shore stuff!

Thank you in advance!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

SRC said:


> I have a 65 389 which has less than 2k miles since complete rebuild. I believe Jim Mott did the rebuild. It has a Howards cam with the 068 profile, stock rockers a short polylocks. I have adjusted this valve train until I was blue in the face, and finally succumbed to a hot/running adjustment. What I found was a couple of the valves can be adjusted to quiet, but then within 30 seconds become noisy again. This happens sporadically sometimes quiet then clacking then quiet.
> The engine runs extremely strong, oil pressure is 40-50 at idle.
> 
> I suspect I have a couple bad lifters and have decided to replace them all. This is the issue, I wanted to buy a set of Johnson lifters through Butler, but they are on indefinite backorder. What brand and source would you guys recommend?
> ...


Both sides of the engine or just on one side?

You say stock rockers, does that include the stock bottleneck rocker arm studs? If so, you may be bottoming the polylock on the rocker arm stud shoulder - just like the factory nut would do. You want the 7/16" big block rocker arm studs so you can adjust the polylock all the way down as needed. You other option is to put hardened washers under the polylock to give you more adjustment before it hits the factory rocker stud shoulder.

Have you checked your rocker arm contact area at the valve stem? Rebuilt can mean deck milling and head milling - both of which can cause pushrod length to change, and thus, rocker arm geometry. You may also have the incorrect length pushrods if somewhere along the way they were ever changed out.

What oil type and weight? Oil type and weight can affect the bleed down rate of the hydraulic lifter.

Could be a bad cam if the cam was not broken in correctly.

Check a few things first before tearing into the engine.

Try Nitemare Performance and see if he has a set or recommendation if you get to that point.


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## SRC (Sep 1, 2021)

Thanks for the reply Jim. To answer some of your questions;
The poly locks are the short style and offer alot of adjustment. I have not experiencing them bottoming out.
The rocker arm contact with the valve stem look centered. I also dont see any significant difference with rocker arm travel when running.
I am using 20-50 Brad Penn semi-synthetic, PF 24 filter.
When adjusting the valves running it really doesn't 'shoot' oil out of the rockers but more like dribbles oil out through the rockers. The rockers have plenty of oil in them when I pull the valve covers.
.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

SRC said:


> Thanks for the reply Jim. To answer some of your questions;
> The poly locks are the short style and offer alot of adjustment. I have not experiencing them bottoming out.
> The rocker arm contact with the valve stem look centered. I also dont see any significant difference with rocker arm travel when running.
> I am using 20-50 Brad Penn semi-synthetic, PF 24 filter.
> ...


20W-50 is too thick. 15W-40 would be as thick as I would use. 10W-30 is factory stock. I might also try a standard petroleum based oil, and not the semi-synthetic. Try a Wix filter, or NAPA Gold as they are pretty good filters - and may flow a little better.

Oil dribbling out the rockers sounds suspicious. Could be the thicker oil, BUT, could be that the wrong lifters were used and the oil band could be dropping too low in the lifter bores and releasing oil pressure. Some mistakenly use the Chevy lifters when rebuilding a Pontiac and this is what happens.

Oil will also dribble if the rocker arms are too tight. You should observe the pushrods spinning with the engine running. This also is an indicator that the lifter is spinning correctly on the cam and not just sitting on the lobe and wearing it down.

Put a dab of white paint, or something, on the top section of the pushrod where you can see it. Run the engine and you want to see that white spot spinning. It should be spinning at idle, but sometimes a little more RPM will do it.

If you do not see the pushrod spinning, it could be too tight, so back the polylock off until you do see it spinning. Then you can go back down if needed, but do not go too tight until is stops spinning. If you cannot get the pushrod to spin after backing off the polylock, then you may have a bad lobe/lifter.

Some lifters will clatter by design like the Rhoads or what some call "anti-pump up" lifters which are designed for higher RPM's. So an email or call to the lifter manufacturer can confirm this as well.

You could also have an oiling issue one of the oil galley plugs was left out in the back of the block or leaking. A good sign of this is oiling on only one side of the rockers. I believe the dirvers side will see some oil and the passenger side will be diminished.

Again, do some more investigating and try a few things before pulling the intake. You may still have to do this just to check things out. Just watch that oil pressure. The Pontiac 60 PSI pump was rated 60PSI @ 2,600 RPM's. If you use thinner oil, your idle oil pressure may go down some, which is normal. 40-50 psi at idle in my book is a little high if 60 PSI oil pump unless an 80 PSI oil pump was installed instead.


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## SRC (Sep 1, 2021)

again Jim thank you for the replies. I will go through your recommendations and see what develops. It may be a couple weeks before I get to it but I will report back.
all the best, Steve


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## Scott06 (May 6, 2020)

I think spotts carrys the johnson lifters if you need them 



Lifters



he also advertises on ebay


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## SRC (Sep 1, 2021)

UPDATE; I have followed some of the advice here, with little positive results. I have changed the oil filter to NAPA, changed oil to Rotella T5 15-40. Marked the pushrods with white paint dot, yes they are rotating. I am going to try to post a video so you can see what I am talking about.
The valves are adjusted hot/running at zero lash plus 1/2 turn. I even tried 3/4 but did not make a difference.

link: October 20, 2021


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

SRC said:


> UPDATE; I have followed some of the advice here, with little positive results. I have changed the oil filter to NAPA, changed oil to Rotella T5 15-40. Marked the pushrods with white paint dot, yes they are rotating. I am going to try to post a video so you can see what I am talking about.
> The valves are adjusted hot/running at zero lash plus 1/2 turn. I even tried 3/4 but did not make a difference.
> 
> link: October 20, 2021



First, OK on the NAPA filter, but I believe the Rotella T5 is synthetic. It is the T4 that is old school oil. But from what I read, many of the synthetics have been reformulated from the earlier oils and can be used with the older engines.

Watched the video. It appears that the front couple of rockers are getting a good amount of oil and then looking down the line, I'm not seeing quite the same flow?

Are you sure you have good oil pressure? Did you try bring RPM's up a little to observe the oil flow? Often with the valve covers off, oil will be squirting about making a bigger mess than what you have. There are 3 different oil pressure ratings used by Pontiac, 40 PSI for the big cars and low performance cars, the 60 PSI for GTO's and high performance engines, and the 80 PSI used by the SD engines. These PSI ratings are at 2,600 RPM's per the factory specs.

Pushrods spinning is typically a good sign.

So what you are saying is that you have backed off the poly lock until you hear the lifter noise/clicking. Then you tightened the poly lock until the clicking stopped. Then you waited for the lifter to "normalize" (which is bleed down) which should be about 10-15 seconds and listened for clicking. If it clicks, you tighten down again until clicking stops, and let the lifter "normalize". You repeat this process until no more clicking is heard. At that point, you tighten the poly lock 1/4 turn and lock it down.

It sounds like a bunch of your lifters are clicking, so make sure you adjust them correctly as above.

The '65 rocker arm studs are stock press-in studs. 

So why are you using the poly locks?

Why not use the factory rocker arm nuts and torque them down to 20-25 foot pounds? You might want to get a set and put them on 1 pair of rocker arms that are clattering just to see if that does it.

The poly locks may be too short and you are not getting the rocker arm ball down far enough on the rocker arm stud.

I would also make sure you have the correct length pushrods for your engine. Pontiac did use different lengths and then you can get aftermarket in several lengths. Unless you know the engine was never apart in it's lifetime and the machine shop didn't err on pushrod length, then I would at least pull 1 pushrod and measure it to confirm you have what your engine needs. If they are too short, then you may have an issue - just another thing to check/verify.

If none of that works, then it may be time to pull the intake and remove/verify that the lifters are good and that you have Pontiac specific lifters and not Chevy lifters.

Hopefully others will look at the video with their observations.


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## SRC (Sep 1, 2021)

Jim, thanks once again for your detailed reply.
Yes I used Rotella T4, non synthetic. (my typo)
The engine was built by Jim Mott (GTO expert?) a couple of years ago. I have the cam card but know little else about what was done other than .30 over, standard crank, and valve job.
I didn't trust the stock oil pressure gauge so I installed a SW mechanical which is feed from a T fitting near the original sender. It reads 45 lbs at idle and will peg at 60lbs at speed.
I too was surprised that I didn't have a bigger mess adjusting the valves with the engine running. I did idle the egine way down to around 550rpm for this procedure.
I read your adjusting procedure, and did not wait for the lifters to bleed down as you noted. I will try that.
I am going to buy some stock crimp style locknuts and try those as I don't feel the cam and spring rates are radical which would preclude using those.
I will also check the pushrod length. I believe these should be 8.250?

All said, other than the noise this 389 runs extremely strong. You really have to get after the shifting when the tripower kicks in, (3:90 rear gear). It will rev to 6000 rpm quickly.

To be continued,,,,,,


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

So on the same subject I notice some lifter or rocker clicking when the motor starts up mostly sounds like from the driver's side and takes until it's to temperature about 180° to seem to go away and not completely, but I haven't really documented it. This winter I changed to Scorpion 1.65 Race rockers, it's an all roller valve train assembled by Butler, also used Rotella 15W40 T4 which helped quiet it down some. I have around 80+ psi cold at idle and maybe 20 psi when hot going up with rpms like it should on the dash gauge and remote gauge under the hood teed into the oil filter housing. I followed Scorpion and Butler's directions installing the rockers, turning the motor over by hand until the exhaust pushrod starts to move open then installing the intake rocker so the pushrod has no slack (zero lash) then tighten the poly lock down 5/8" -3/4" turn then lock down the set screw then bumping the nut and screw a hair tighter together all doing this cold. I did run it with the valve covers off and was getting oil out of all the rockers and push rods wouldn't be rotating on a roller set up I don't think right?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> So on the same subject I notice some lifter or rocker clicking when the motor starts up mostly sounds like from the driver's side and takes until it's to temperature about 180° to seem to go away and not completely, but I haven't really documented it. This winter I changed to Scorpion 1.65 Race rockers, it's an all roller valve train assembled by Butler, also used Rotella 15W40 T4 which helped quiet it down some. I have around 80+ psi cold at idle and maybe 20 psi when hot going up with rpms like it should on the dash gauge and remote gauge under the hood teed into the oil filter housing. I followed Scorpion and Butler's directions installing the rockers, turning the motor over by hand until the exhaust pushrod starts to move open then installing the intake rocker so the pushrod has no slack (zero lash) then tighten the poly lock down 5/8" -3/4" turn then lock down the set screw then bumping the nut and screw a hair tighter together all doing this cold. I did run it with the valve covers off and was getting oil out of all the rockers and push rods wouldn't be rotating on a roller set up I don't think right?


Yes, no rotation from the pushrods as the roller lifters ride on the roller base that makes contact with the cam lobe. If they are rotating - you are in big trouble. 


SRC said:


> Jim, thanks once again for your detailed reply.
> Yes I used Rotella T4, non synthetic. (my typo)
> The engine was built by Jim Mott (GTO expert?) a couple of years ago. I have the cam card but know little else about what was done other than .30 over, standard crank, and valve job.
> I didn't trust the stock oil pressure gauge so I installed a SW mechanical which is feed from a T fitting near the original sender. It reads 45 lbs at idle and will peg at 60lbs at speed.
> ...



Butler lists the stock pushrods as 8.715" which I also verified through my HO Enterprises parts spec booklet 1961 through early 1967. They also have the "ball" type end. 

The 1967 GTO & GP, and 1968 to 1979 400CI engines are listed as using the 9.145" length.

The RAII pushrod is listed as 9.137"



https://butlerperformance.com/c-1234840-valvetrain-components-pushrods-stock-replacement-pushrods.html


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> Yes, no rotation from the pushrods as the roller lifters ride on the roller base that makes contact with the cam lobe. If they are rotating - you are in big trouble.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So what about the clicking until it's up to temperature is that a roller valve train trait or should the valves be adjusted hot or should I not worry about it and turn the radio up?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> So what about the clicking until it's up to temperature is that a roller valve train trait or should the valves be adjusted hot or should I not worry about it and turn the radio up?


From what I have read over at the PY site and other forums on the roller lifters, seems some of the lifters are indeed noisier than others depending on manufacturer. If they are solids, then my understanding is you would lash them like flat tappet - which is hot. If hydraulics, then I would "zero lash" them.

There was member on here in the past and his made a lot of ticking noise. He went with a different weight of oil and that improved them quite a bit. Seeing it clears up after it warms up, that may indicate an oil that is too thick when cold.

Seeing it is a Butler build, you may want to ask them what they suggest.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Ok so I did the rocker install correctly? I was running 20W50 because that's what Butler used then switched to 10W30 or 40 when I read that was to heavy then saw here that 15W40 was a good choice so I'm using that, not a big deal just making sure I didn't do anything wrong when I read about other people's issues 👍


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## SRC (Sep 1, 2021)

Second update;
Since my last post I have removed the poly locks, replace all pushrods with correct length and 'ball ends'. Ran the new rocker nuts down and torqued the to 25lbs. I still have some noise but not as bad. All pushrods are rotating nicely and oil flow seems to be better. I have no idea why the polylocks were installed by previous owner.
I guess I will leave it for now and see what happens. The engine just runs too darn strong to mess with changing cam and lifters.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

SRC said:


> Second update;
> Since my last post I have removed the poly locks, replace all pushrods with correct length and 'ball ends'. Ran the new rocker nuts down and torqued the to 25lbs. I still have some noise but not as bad. All pushrods are rotating nicely and oil flow seems to be better. I have no idea why the polylocks were installed by previous owner.
> I guess I will leave it for now and see what happens. The engine just runs too darn strong to mess with changing cam and lifters.


Great, sounds like you are close. What it means in my book is that the cam/lifters are good. Whomever assembled the engine dropped the ball.

Several things could be in play. Machine work of the heads/block could have changed rocker arm geometry. Wrong length/improper pushrods. Polylocks that were too short in their adjustment and you were not getting the rocker arm tight enough to get the plunger in the lifter where it needed to be.

Another thing that can happen is that press-in rocker arm studs can pull up when using stiff valve springs or revving real high RPM's. Not very common, but can happen.

As you noted, the oil flow got better. If the rocker nuts are too tight, the pushrods don't spin as needed and oil flow slows down. So spinning pushrods and good oil flow is going the right direction.

In the future, if you wanted to tackle what little ticking there is, you may want to measure from the rocker arm ball to the top of the stud when the valve is closed and rocker arm nut removed. This would give you a better measurement as to the length of the polylocks you would need. Yours still may be correct, but need additional shims that would go under the polylock and on top of the rocker arm ball. This would move the polylock higher up on the 3/8" threads so you could then tighten the polylock down more and it would position the rocker ball/arm down lower on the rocker arm stud and take up the slack in the lifter. You can purchase hardened 3/8" washers that will work. It may take 1 or more washers, so a little trial & error, and then you simply adjust the polylock to get your "zero lash." The thing to watch is how deep the allen set screw is in at the top of the polylock. You don't want it sticking up too high which means it will not catch well on the polylock thread and you can strip the allen screw out when you tighten it. On the other hand, you don't want it set too deep for the same reason.

So run it as is for now, watch your oil pressure, and enjoy it. If by chance the rocker clicking gets louder, it may be that one of the rocker arm nuts has loosened up. Sometimes due to age/wear of the stud, they can lose torque. I would not be paranoid over it, just keep and ear out.


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## SRC (Sep 1, 2021)

Thanks for all of your advice Jim. Much appreciated!


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## SRC (Sep 1, 2021)

Third update. So I thought I was ok with just some minor noise, but the demon has come back. It seems like from one day to another the noise is not the same. I decided to bite the bullet and look into the lifters. 
Once I tore it down I really dont see any obvious problems. the cam looks good, in fact the engine looks very new inside.
I am attaching a few photos. When I compare the new Lunati lifters to what was in the engine they look the same except the new lifters appear to have the oil hole about .020 higher on the lifter than those I removed. 
I would really like to put in some Johnson lifters but those are not available at the present time. Do any of you have any other recommendations?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Which lifter is the new one, right or left in the photo? The location of the hole in the oil band doesn't matter, but the location of the oil-hole -band- itself does. 

Bear


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

BearGFR said:


> Which lifter is the new one, right or left in the photo? The location of the hole in the oil band doesn't matter, but the location of the oil-hole -band- itself does.
> 
> Bear



X2 with Bear. Is it the picture angle or me? If the new one is on the right, the oil band looks slightly lower - and lifter body base shorter?. If so that could be the issue. I have read that some cams are ground small on the base to get the lift from the lobe. If that oil band is slightly lower as I see it and the base of the cam is ground small, it could be that the lifter is dropping too low and past the oil band allowing oil/oil pressure to bleed off/escape.

Could also be some junk in the lifter bodies - which you can disassemble and check/clean. Or they could be anti-pump up lifters which have a faster bleed down rate and could be a little noisey. Or, junk Chinese/off shore lifters with bad tolerances.

So you need to pull out the micrometer and measure total lifter length, base to lower band, lower band edge to upper band edge and see what differences you come up with. Measure the lifter diameter as well to make sure it is not undersized.

Another possibility is that the lifter bores can wear. It is one of those things that happens and not many check for it. It could be worn or out of round from a previous problem that you inherited. The bores can be saved by sleeving them and honing to size - if needed.


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## SRC (Sep 1, 2021)

The new lifter is on the right in the photo. Both the diameter and length are the same although the photo gives a distorted view.


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## SRC (Sep 1, 2021)

and yet another question. This is pertaining to the rocker arm balls. I have factory press in studs and stock 1.5 rockers. The rocker balls installed on the engine are on the left and the replacements I ordered are on the right. A big difference in thickness! which is correct?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

SRC said:


> and yet another question. This is pertaining to the rocker arm balls. I have factory press in studs and stock 1.5 rockers. The rocker balls installed on the engine are on the left and the replacements I ordered are on the right. A big difference in thickness! which is correct?
> View attachment 147086
> View attachment 147086
> View attachment 147087
> ...



The rocker arm balls on the right are what I would use. Those are the ones that come with the aftermarket stamped steel 1.5 ratio rockers. The grooves help to retain oil in the rocker arm cup for better oiling.

I have never compared a stock (left ball ?) to an aftermarket/replacement ball. The diameter of both should be the same. But, you want to make sure that the new replacement ball seats into the rocker arm cup. The contours look slightly different in the photo. If you can put some dye/paint on the ball/rocker cup and then grind/work the 2 together to see what kind of mating impression you get to see if the new ball will work with the rockers you have. The thickness of the larger ball may also seat the rocker arm further down on the rocker arm stud. So it may change the valve lash if you torque them down - which may be ok, or could be too tight? I don't know on this. The poly locks might need to come back into play? 

*Photo #1* - I have this info that says the 1964-1966 389CI rocker arms are different than the 1967 400CI rocker arms This may explain the rocker ball differences, but again, check the larger ball fit into your rockers:

64-65-66 are diff from 67 up. The valve stem side of the later 1967 and up rocker arm is longer. If you can get good rocker arm geometry and the pushrod rides in the proper location they will interchange. We HAVE used the Comp Magnums (roller-tipped) on 389s and 421s. We've also used the 400 rockers on them. They work but aren't "perfect". The geometry is only "slightly" different but with the correct length pushrods to correct the geometry, all is okay.

Here are the stamped rockers and the balls with the grooves for the 400CI. 









PONTIAC COMP Cams 1251-16 COMP Cams High Energy Rocker Arms | Summit Racing


Free Shipping - COMP Cams High Energy Rocker Arms with qualifying orders of $99. Shop Rocker Arms at Summit Racing.




www.summitracing.com





*Photo #2* - The aftermarket stamped rocker arms also have the longer slot in the rocker cup for higher lift cams. If you go big lift with stock rockers, the smaller slot may not allow the rocker arm to pivot enough before binding on the rocker arm stud - and this is what can snap the bottle neck studs pretty quickly. Stock on left and the aftermarket long slot (1967 and up) on right.

*Photo #3* - Lifters. Chevy on the left. Pontiac on the right.

So I can't give you a definite answer on this one as I have not run into this or worked with 389's other than in a "generic" sense such as tuning up. You can contact Butler or might even try Darrin Magro at Nitemare Performance and email him as he is good about responding back. He could tell you if you can use the later 400CI rocker arms on your 389CI.




__





Nitemare Performance Pontiac Products & Service






www.nitemareperformance.com


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

You may be on to something here. If the balls sit differently on the studs (yeah, I know how that sounds 😆), then it may be affecting lash one ready or the other, too tight or too loose. 

Bear


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

A couple of years back, I bought some HFT lifters for my really low budget 455 bracket car. I'd always bought the Rhoads original lifters, for every 455 bracket engine I ran. Never had a single problem with 'em. But, since this was LOW budget, & I was only gonna run a Summit 2802 cam, I decided to buy cheaper lifters.

BUT, I'd read all the negative stuff about non-USA made lifters. So, when I looked into it a little, it seems that there were only 2 USA companies making Pontiac HFT lifters. They were Hylift Johnson(NOT Johnson), & Delphi. Have read that Rhoads uses Hylift Johnson cores, then modify 'em & sell 'em as Rhoads brand. Have also read that SOME cam companies have sold Hylift Johnson lifters with their cam company name on the box. Companies can change suppliers. So, I have no idea what lifter might come in any box, if I ordered a set today.

Anyhow, I called Summit & asked who made the Pontiac HFT lifters they sell as Summit brand. Said he did not know. I looked on the Jegs site & saw that the box the Jegs lifters came in had "Made in USA" on it. So, I figured that unless they were lying, the lifters had to be made either by Hylift Johnson or Delphi.

So, I ordered a set. They were Delphi. They are easy to ID. They have a thin groove, or parting line, near the bottom. I've read that this is because they have a hardened "foot". So I assume you could say the body is a 2-piece. But, I've never heard anything bad about Delphi lifters. Have read that they made lots of the lifters used in GM engines.

They come with the flimsy paperclip retainers. I've seen these come out, in running engines. So, I replaced them with real snap-rings.

On the PY forum, most seem to recommend the Hylift Johnson "R" lifters. They are a "bleed-down" or "variable duration" type lifter, but are said to not bleed down near as fast as the original Rhoads lifters, therefore do not produce the "clicking" sound many do not like.



http://toplineauto.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Lifter-Application-Catalog.pdf


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

In general, I'm not a fan of variable duration lifters because when they're in "bleed down"/low RPM/low(er) oil pressure mode and effectively shortening valve duration, that also means that they're allowing the valve to close while the lifter is still at least partially "up" on the cam lobe, and possibly before the cam lobe closing ramp. 

Cams very frequently have ramp shapes that "slow down" the valve closing rate at this point so as to set the valve down gently as opposed to slamming it shut, something that is particularly important for exhaust valves. My concern is that the bleed down action might be causing a situation where the valve is closing while the lifter is still on the steeper part of the cam lobe - in other words "defeating" the purpose of the lobe's closing ramp shape, and allowing the valve to slam shut with more force. 

Just food for thought...

My 0.02. Void where prohibited by law, past performance is not a guaranteed of future return, slippery when wet...

Bear


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## SRC (Sep 1, 2021)

After alot of trial and error, I installed a new set of Lunati Micro-trol lifters. Adjusted with polylocks 1/2 turn after zero lash.
The engine is much quieter, just a faint tick when cold, warm it is quiet. I am going to leave it like this for now, the car just runs too well to screw with it further.


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