# Report Prompts Investigation Into Pontiac GTO



## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

*Report Prompts Investigation Into Pontiac GTO*
_Department Of Transportation Opens Official Investigation_
February 20, 2007​
CLEVELAND -- A 5 On Your Side investigation was the first to uncover a potential safety defect in thousands of U.S. cars.

The nation's top auto safety agency is taking action.

*Investigation*​http://www.newsnet5.com/investigations/11003693/detail.html 

Investigator Ron Regan reported the Department of Transportation has opened an official defect investigation into the Pontiac GTO.

This action comes just one week after our report first aired.

The investigation found that the tires suddenly exploded on a Cleveland freeway. WEWS found the front struts on the GTO could be actually rubbing against the inside of the tires, causing catastrophic failure on model years 2004-2006.

A defect investigation has been opened by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

General Motors will be required to turn over complaints and warranty repairs.

The process will take about three months to complete. If warranted, a complete engineering analysis will be ordered.

So far, 69 complaints have been officially received.

Regan reported that number is expected to rise.


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## 2006GTOLS2 (Sep 23, 2005)

Old news to most of us. We have known about this for a while now.


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## DrFix2Fly (Oct 27, 2004)

Finally this problem is getting the recognition it deserves. My front tires shredded at 20K with only half of those miles with those tires on the front. Both of mine rubbed the struts, even the one that was within spec. The one that was out of spec by .03 Degree got torn up. My dealer claims to have never seen another with this problem but says he inspects all GTOs for it. Somehow I think GM will get away with this until the fleet is past warranty. My advice it to save your shredded tires for evidence and if anyone knows how to add our complaints to the list, please put it here.


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## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

Gotta love the government...jumping in nearly 3 years after the problem reared its ugly head!


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## Xrover (Feb 20, 2007)

Wow, I just joined this forum yesterday and read a lot of posts here as part of my research into buying an 06 GTO. I learned about this problem during my reads on this forum. This is something I will be checking out before I purchase as well as after.

It sounds like a different style strut is needed.


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## II-Savy (Jan 12, 2005)

Figures...go Pontiac.


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## why2kmax (Dec 14, 2004)

Its only a problem on the 17" rims with 245 series tires. Correct alignment from pontac TAC and tires at 35 psi COLD usually fixes the problem but yeah it IS a problem. 

18" rims with 235 dont have the problem If you want intricate details go to ls1gto.com and do a search on strut rub. more info than you can handle


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## B/STOCK (Aug 3, 2004)

why2kmax said:


> Its only a problem on the 17" rims with 245 series tires. Correct alignment from pontac TAC and tires at 35 psi COLD usually fixes the problem but yeah it IS a problem.
> 
> 18" rims with 235 dont have the problem If you want intricate details go to ls1gto.com and do a search on strut rub. more info than you can handle



I am putting on my 18s when the car comes out of winter storage. I was afaird of strut rub with the 18s but I guess I had it backward.


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

2006GTOLS2 said:


> Old news to most of us. We have known about this for a while now.


Not really old news, the investigation was opened on 2-16-07


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## 2006GTOLS2 (Sep 23, 2005)

05GTO said:


> Not really old news, the investigation was opened on 2-16-07


Well, I heard read about it on a different GTO site on the same day it was opened (2-16-07)....so that is old to me, and anyone that owns a GTO and is emphatic about knowing all there is to know, knows about the strut rub issue. It has been a known problem for a LONG time now. It's just now that it has been made "official". Thx for posting though. Some guys may not know of the seriousness that this issue could potentially be. I advise everyone with 17" wheels to check your front tires. If there is the least bit of rubbing noticed, take it to the dealer at once!!!

The last time I was at the dealer having my oil changed, I walked in to the service bay area and inspected the tires myself. I mentioned it to the Service Manager, but I take nobody's word when it comes to me and my family's safety. They didn't say anything about me inspecting my car, but if they ever do, I would tell them to kiss my A$$, and to let my car down off the lift. They seem to think that they know everything about our vehicles, but in essence...they don't.....even after over 3 years of production. We know much more than they ever could, because we own them, drive them every day, read the message boards of other users experiences, and we are emphatic about them.


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## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

I am lucky, I didn't have the problem. Lucky because I like to take an occasional romp on the other side of 120mph, and a blowout at those speeds would be disastrous. It was something I knew to look for prior to buying my '05, fortunately. I can understand why they want to have the tire as close to the shock as possible, but common sense should tell you that you need just a bit of clearance to keep from killing people. I bet it was a bean-counter problem more than an engineering problem. Engineers tend to think about such things, bean counters don't.


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## 2006 GTO M6 (Nov 8, 2006)

*Gto Struts*

And here I thought my only strut problem was the fact that with 280 miles (that's 280 without another zero on the end) on the car the right one blew and a week later (while I was waiting for replacements) the left one blew and then the car stayed at Pontiac for three weeks till replacements came here and on top of theat both bearings were shot as well. Have to admit after they were replaced I've got almost 10k on the car and they seem to be fine (I have 18" rims) with no sign of tire rub.


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## GT MECH ENG (Jun 3, 2005)

baron_iv said:


> Engineers tend to think about such things, bean counters don't.


Good engineers think about the bean counters.


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## mlyon (Oct 7, 2006)

How do you excactly check for this problem? Do u have to get under the car? Just turn the wheels? Please help


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## GTO1_OHIO (Oct 10, 2005)

Feb 24th I will be meeting the investigative reporter, Ron Regan, that broke this story at Back Street Performance in Medina Ohio. He is coming down to interview several people and to film. My car's suspension is being torn down and replaced with a Pedders suspension. Peter G. Basica (JusticePete), President Pedders USA will also be there to discuss the strut rub issue with this reporter. Pete and his network of Pedders dealerships have more combined knowledge of actual strut rub incidents and the suspension problems that are causing them then anyone. Other GTO owners who also have experienced strut rub will also be there. 

If you have information that you think will help in this investigation you can e-mail Ron Regan at [email protected]. 

This investigative report series is being broadcast on TV stations owned by Scripp Howard. Besides Cleveland in know it has run in at least Detroit, Kansas City, Orlando, West Palm and Baltimore.

...and yes this is very old news. Stut rub has been known about on the 04 model from very early on. The fix is just a simple alignment. The problem is that parts in the suspension are prematurely failing. This problem was compounded when GM chose to use the 245/45/17 tire in the US over the 235/40/18 tire that was origionally on the Monaro. The camber adjustment specifications to align the GTO were modified by GM to try to help solve this issue. Also the 06 model has a redesigned strut...another try to fix the problem.


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## GMinTheDriveway (Sep 12, 2005)

Never had a strut rub problem, but I disposed of the stock shocks/struts long ago for my Whiteline setup.


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## TN04GTO (Jul 8, 2005)

I've got an 04 with 17s. I never had a strut rub problem with the original tires, but they did scallop and had a strange wear pattern. Only got about 21k on the originals. I bought a new set of Goodyear Response Edge. The place that sold me the tires checked the alignment, said it was off just a little, but they didn't know how to set the camber. They bolted the tires up and the left front rubbed slightly. I didn't notice it till the next day. I took it to the local dealer. They said it was within alignment and that I had bought the wrong tires. I showed them that the tires were 245/45/17, exactly what the owners manual called for. They still said the tires were too wide. Idiots! I took the GTO to a third alignment shop who knew what they were doing. They said it was out of alignment and gave me an extra 1 degree of camber (still in specs) which took care of the rub. The Goodyear place offered to exchange the tires for another style, but I really like the Response Edge. Bottom line, the Goodyears are now doing fine. The dealer's full of crap.


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## PEKO (Nov 30, 2006)

We have 4 06 GTOs at my dealer. WE just replaced front struts in all of them. It was something we were allowed to do up until i believe next week. Customer Satisfaction they said. Something about them leaking. So we replaced 8 front struts under warranty for stock units. Who knows if thats the real reason why we replaced them


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## hunter35 (Jun 28, 2006)

why2kmax said:


> Its only a problem on the 17" rims with 245 series tires. Correct alignment from pontac TAC and tires at 35 psi COLD usually fixes the problem but yeah it IS a problem.
> 
> 18" rims with 235 dont have the problem If you want intricate details go to ls1gto.com and do a search on strut rub. more info than you can handle


I have 18's and 235 that came with the car......I rotated the tires @ 20K, inspected and moved on....I'm 53K and the rear tires ( one of them down to primary rubber ) the other was well on it's way. So I'm not sure that the 18" rim with 235's is totaly immune to the rub problem.:seeya:


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## andersen54981 (Nov 10, 2004)

*Recall?*

This means all GTO's Gotta go in for a Recall?

I'm readdy for new tires in the back, Didnt think about the front tires.
Went down in my garage, and found that the inner whall on bouth tires were badly ripped up....GMC CAN BY MY TIRES THIS TIME.
Scary.


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## Harlesjohn (May 26, 2006)

so does that mean ill be able to find a gto for much cheaper now?


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## RUSTYM38 (Aug 31, 2006)

*Tire Rub*

Thanks to all of the heads up owners out there!! Although someone said this is old news, I have'nt heard of this until now, and i will check my car(06 with 18 inch wheel/tire option) asap! you guys are awesome!!


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## roade (Sep 13, 2005)

Local dealship fixed mine and replaced the front tires. Under warranty even !!
(25k miles)

:cheers


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## GM Kid (Mar 21, 2005)

I had mine fixed under warranty--just a simple alignment adjustment.

What bugged me was that the dealer--for some inexplicable reason--moved the worn front tires to the back and put two new tires on the front. Made no sense to me at the time, and it still doesn't. Later, one of those worn tires started coming apart while I was on the freeway. Tore up my fender liner. The dealership got me new tires under warranty and fixed the fender liner.

All of that being said, if Pontiac decides the real fix is to offer me 18-inch rims for my 17s, I'd take 'em. The few millimeters of contact patch I'd be giving up would be worth the peace of mind I'd gain.


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## bdu1234 (Feb 9, 2007)

please excuse my being a noob, I have acutally been reading the GTO forums at several sites and remember a couple of years ago when this was a discussion but I'm wondering something and perhaps someone can help.

Why can't GM just put a 10 or 15 mm spacer behind the wheel which would take a little out of the backspacing? Wouldn't this solve the problem?


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## Lightindarkness420 (Dec 6, 2006)

I bought a used 04 and it now has 30K on it…I got it with 27k…I didn’t get the extend warrantee…what does this mean for me IF my struts are causing this problem? Am I going to have to pay for it out of pocket?


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## GTO1_OHIO (Oct 10, 2005)

First off the redesigned 06 struts have a separate issue, they do leak in some cases and GM will replace them. This will not cause strut rub.

Second off the 04/05 strut itself is not bad. The car can be aligned correctly and it will not rub. But in many cases the car was not properly aligned coming from the factory and the owner failed to do proper tire maintenance. This resulted in strut rub. 

Third there is a problem on all years 04/05/06, this is that the strut bushing prematurely collapses. I have seen a dealer post that they have seen it on an 06 with only 205 miles. The result of this and other suspension parts failing prematurely is that the suspension will not hold the alignment. This results in strut rub. 

Last off if you do or have had strut rub file a complaint with the NHTSA otherwise GM will not have to take care of this issue.


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## rworkman98 (Feb 10, 2005)

Thanks for posting the info! I hadn't heard about it before. Now I guess I'll have to put my car up on the lift and look...


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## BlackBeast2 (Jan 30, 2007)

*Goat pills*

Two words : Wheel Spacers.

Us old Mustang SN95'ers used to deal with this issue often. Especially when running larger / wider hoops(especially with the frunt struts), or a change in ride height. Even four heavy passengers can change the stock ride height of tighter cars like these. 
Quality hubcentric spacers are available for many models from reputable companies such as MAC and HHR.

Hey, "wider is better", right ?


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## GTO1_OHIO (Oct 10, 2005)

BlackBeast2 said:


> Two words : Wheel Spacers.
> 
> Us old Mustang SN95'ers used to deal with this issue often. Especially when running larger / wider hoops(especially with the frunt struts), or a change in ride height. Even four heavy passengers can change the stock ride height of tighter cars like these.
> Quality hubcentric spacers are available for many models from reputable companies such as MAC and HHR.
> ...


...putting a band aid on to fix OEM equipment that is failing prematurely and causing the front to go out of aligmnent is not even a reasonable solution. It's still going to be out of alignment and cause uneven tire wear.


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## jortegasr (Nov 4, 2005)

I am now regreting buying this car or any GM product for that matter. The dealer cannot figure out how to fix my traction control problem. I have only had my car for 1 full week since the first of the year. I also have a problem with my 04 Tahoe. GM products are JUNK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:shutme


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## jaak (Dec 27, 2006)

Wow, Hope they get it fixed! I'd hate to see one blow next to me. Or behind me.


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## mlyon (Oct 7, 2006)

So basically if I get my car's alignment done say every 5000 miles you think I can avoid this? Also should I just go ahead and ask them to do it and ask if it is a problem? Or will they not tell you if you don't ask? Take it to a dealer? A tire place?


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## 8aStang (Jul 26, 2005)

mlyon said:


> So basically if I get my car's alignment done say every 5000 miles you think I can avoid this? Also should I just go ahead and ask them to do it and ask if it is a problem? Or will they not tell you if you don't ask? Take it to a dealer? A tire place?


Check the insides of your front tires where the tread meets the sidewall. Also, look at the struts where they are closest to the tire to see if there is any visible rubbing. I would pull the tires to make sure. 

My car had it and I didn't know until I went to get my tires balanced the day before a road trip (front was shaking some). The tire shop brought me out to show me the tire and the tread was just starting to seperate. Pontiac refused to do anything for me, even claiming that it "appears" that the front of my car had been hit which is total BS. I got pedders struts and some used tires off a fellow Goat owners car but I will still be watching the outcome of this investigation. I think they still owe me a set of tires and an alignment.


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## andersen54981 (Nov 10, 2004)

jortegasr said:


> I am now regreting buying this car or any GM product for that matter. The dealer cannot figure out how to fix my traction control problem. I have only had my car for 1 full week since the first of the year. I also have a problem with my 04 Tahoe. GM products are JUNK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:shutme


So get your self a Toyota.......


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## jortegasr (Nov 4, 2005)

andersen54981 said:


> So get your self a Toyota.......


I should of held out for the Shelby GT500. I had a Mustang before the goat. It had over 160,000 miles and the only thing I had to replace was the clutch at 120,000 miles.


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## Idleclamp (Aug 2, 2006)

GTO1_OHIO said:


> Third there is a problem on all years 04/05/06, this is that the strut bushing prematurely collapses. I have seen a dealer post that they have seen it on an 06 with only 205 miles. The result of this and other suspension parts failing prematurely is that the suspension will not hold the alignment. This results in strut rub.
> 
> Last off if you do or have had strut rub file a complaint with the NHTSA otherwise GM will not have to take care of this issue.



How can you tell if the strut bushing has collapsed? I'll be checking my tires when I get home from my trip.


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## GTO1_OHIO (Oct 10, 2005)

Idleclamp said:


> How can you tell if the strut bushing has collapsed? I'll be checking my tires when I get home from my trip.


This was posted on another site, it includes how to check them.

_How to diagnosis suspension issues 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So here are some common and not so common concerns that do apply to the GTO that should be mentioned:
1. Excess front tire movement on braking casued by OE radius rod bushes being too soft, and or leaking
2. OE strut leakage concerns built between 1/15/06 and 5/6/06.
3. Damaged bushings caused by oil saturation on end links, control arm bushings in the front
4. Split end link bushes and bent front end links
5. Increased tire wear on the inside front tires caused by collapsing front strut bushings
6. Leaking steering gears at adjuster plug covers.
7. Tie rods wearing causing toe change
8. Excess negative front cambers causing tire to strut contact
9. Front spring sag, causing increases in front tire wear
10. Non gas struts from Monroe (OE) wearing out prematurely
11. Front strut bearings getting lumpy on turning
12. OE front coils contacting other suspension parts and casuing noises (bulletin)
13. Rear spring wag causing severe wear on the inside tire tread
14. Rear Xmember bushes only supporting the rear cradle in a single axis, causing excess rear cradle movmement
15. Majority of GTOs have front and rear cradle assemblies that are out of alignment
16. Rear contorl arm bushing bolts coming loose
17. Rear half shaft mounting bolts shearing
18. Whining rear end assemblies
19 Extreme wheel hop concerns
20. Insuffient control/support of the rear diff mount.
21. Rer springs causings the back end to collapse due to sprng rat3s being too small, and this addes a lot of negative camber tot he back end
22. Rear control arm bushes tearing
23. Lack of camber adjustabilty of the back end
24. Back end sitting lower than the front end.
25. OE rear shock mounting bushes collapsing and shocks getting loose causing noises

I may have missed some and welcome additons to this list. Now that I have made a list of things that can go wrong, what steps to we take to help the novice identify the issues? Are there things you can do to help us who are qualified and ewxperienced in the GTO suspension to assit you? Yes there are. 

Here is a beginning list of pre-checks you can do to get a basic understanding of the suspension condition of your GTO.

Symptoms: Write down any complaints symp[tons of any kind. Be specific on how to get the sympton to act up. I E. backing out of driveway, wheels turned tp the left and hitting the bottom of the curb, or freeway speeds, even roads, 75 to 85 mph

1. Fill tires to the placard psi on your doors. (35psi cold) Put the GTO on a very level ground, and wheels straight.

2. Measure the height of all 4 corners from the bottom of the wheel well to the bottom lip of the wheel. Go thru the center axis of the wheel. Note all 4 corners. On a 17 inch wheel, the average height is 600 mm. Pete and I have seen as much as 5/8 inch variation in this measurement. But the normal new variation is between 590 to 605 mm. Note all 4 corners Note: this should not be done immediately after the vehicle is in the air. It should be done after the vehicle has been driven so the suspension is in a normal height.

3. In a safe area, have someone drive by you at approx 5-7 mph. When your front end gets to you, have the driver do a panic stop. Observe the front wheels to see if the "kick back. You may need to do this several times on each side to see.

4. Take the small caps off of the top strut nuts in the engine compartment, making sure the wheels are on the ground. With a socket and a breaker bar, move/twist the nut in a clockwaise manner 90 degrees, and see if it readily springs back. If it does not, then the strut bushing is defective. If you want to check it out further, you can remove the nut and palte, and look at the bushing. If the center section of the bushing is above the outer section or in, then the bushing is collapsed and/or torn. The center of the bushing is recessed. Here is a link that shows the bad center piece.
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2219...54308893LaBZTa
A Pedders unit is significantly stronger than OE. If you remove the strut, notice if you see any metal in the bushing around the perimeter part. If so, then the bushing is bad and can casue noise issues, especially on turns and big bumps. A brand new bushing is approx 2-3/16 to 2-1/4 tall at the outer circumference. Sometiems this is the opnly way to actually measure if they are collpased or not. Also keep in mind, it is entirely po0ssible for a collapsed bushing to meet the twist test. At the last DMS day, we had about 20-25% or so of all strut bushings checked fail this test.

5. With a tire depth gage (very cheap at any auto supply store) measure and note the tread depth at the second, middle and last tread on all four tiures and notice any chopiness or unequal wear on the tires, especially the outer and inner edges. 

6. Lifting the vehicle, and watching the struts in the engine compartment, you will see the strut plate collapse to the fender. This is normal on a OE bushing, even a new one. With a Pedders sturt bushing, you will se it rock only and not collapse.

7. Visual inspections are important, and you really do need to know what you are looking at. Starting with the front, you look at any suspension components tht are shinny or showing contact, wet or oily. Bushings, espeically the front sway bar end links and the rear radius rod bushing in the contorl are particulariy suseptable to oil damage. Look at the radius rod bushing for signs of moisture. It is normal to see some rust on the bushing. Look for loose bolts, and look at the bushings to see if their is wear and if the sleeves going thru the center of the bushings are still in the center. If off to the side, then the bushing is fatiguing. Look at all boots to see if they are cracking or splitting. do visual inspections of the rear suspension just like the fronts. Pay particular attention to the bushings in the rear control arm for appearing off-centered, which would indicate a bushing failure.
Visual check the axles, half shafts, driveline, and rear trans mounts for evidence of wear or fatigue. Especially after hitting big pot holes, or bumping curbs, looking for bent parts in also important

8. hands on inspections of suspension and steerign components are important and you need to truly know what you are doing and looking for. To high light some areas, grab the left front wheel and turn it sharply left and right very hard, back and forth. Feel if there is looseness or noises. There should be continuous drag. Do it on the other side. Also with a second set of eys doing the same rapid movement of the tires and wheels, observe the suspension and steering components for looseness, especially inner tie rod ends, and the ball studs on the outer tie rod ends. you should see no movement here. Nowgrab the tie rod ends and make sure you can rotate the tie rod with force. Should not rotate easily. Then grab the tie rod and move it up and down and observe any tie rod ball stud movement. There should be none. Upi can also use some large channel lock type pliers and squeeze the outer tie rod ends to see if you have excessive looseness With very slight movements wih your hands at 9 & 3 and again at 12 ane 6, rock the front tires back and forth. you should really not feel any looseness here. This will be checking for excess hub looseness.doing it again aggressively at the 12 & 6 position can see if you have excessively loose ball joints. Repeat hands on testing on the rear tie rod ends, u joints and half shafts. Check the wheel bearings the sme way as the fronts.

There are a lot more addtinal checks that can be made and not limited jsut to the above. But this should get you going. Hope it helps

mike
dms_


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## sjbbq (Nov 8, 2004)

*2004 gto*

after reading about this problem i decieded to check my tires. i rotated at 8ooo miles and tire company did not notice any problems. i heard a rub as i jumped a country bridge a couple weeks ago. pulled off all 4 tires and both shocks show rubbing with right front the worst. with only 2000 miles on front tires now can see definite wear. so i plan to visit service department, with my digital pics in my back pocket. when i called pontiac last week they said no reported problems had been found. my tires are original stock 17 '' 245's. i have the 6 year warranty so i plan to fight the problem with pontiac.


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## coolhandgoat (Nov 2, 2006)

sjbbq said:


> so i plan to visit service department, with my digital pics in my back pocket. when i called pontiac last week they said no reported problems had been found. my tires are original stock 17 '' 245's. i have the 6 year warranty so i plan to fight the problem with pontiac.


Good luck. I fought Pontiac for over three weeks, finally ending up with the head of customer service who said "it's a tire problem, and you have to go through the tire manufacturer to resolve this issue. We will go no further with this issue, please do not contact us again in regards to this." Of course, my (ex)dealership said it was caused by me cornering too hard all the time because I am young. Probably Goat envy...  

Now that there's an official investigation underway, I would recommend taking a copy of that too and flashing that to the dealer.


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## GTO1_OHIO (Oct 10, 2005)

Saturday my car was at Back Street Performance getting a full Pedders suspension. Also there were JusticePete (president of Pedders North America) and 2 other BuckeyeGoats sable and b20. The action5 investigative reporter that broke this story came down to interview us on the strut rub problem and to see first had what our suspension looks like, problems we uncovered and how Pedders products are being used as an alternative to OEM parts to prevent this issue. I will be notified when the next segment in this investigation is to be broadcast. I also recorded most of the interview myself so I will be posted the complete interview at some date after the broadcast.

Of the three cars only 1 of the 6 strut bearings had gone bad.

...so where did we end up on my car. The front and rear cradle alignments are done as is the Hotchkis sway bars and all the Pedders items in the rear. We had to stop the front installation to wait for some more parts. Although my strut bushings were fine, the bump stops were not. One had been cut into two pieces and another cut about 1/2 way through. Another thing that we needed to order were new Pedders tie-rod end as the OEMs had started to deform. JusticePete said he had never seen the bump stops cut like this before. The reason they did is both my front struts were basically shot, 36K on the car....lucky me. There were quite a few OEM bushing that had started breaking down throughout the car. 

We also found that my car had an extra rubber bushing that Pete had seen before but nobody knows what its purpose is. This piece was basically an experiment and is a rare find. My rear sub-frame bushing was also missing its top half. Pete had seen this on 05s and 06s before, there is a TSB on it, but never on an 04. Strange because my car is a Dec 03 build. Pete took pics of all of this and will be posting later this week on our install.


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## Taxman (Dec 24, 2005)

andersen54981 said:


> So get your self a Toyota.......


Thats what I did Im alot happier with it too,


Too bad I cant get anything done with mine since I told it, lost money in defective car they would not fix. Claim never heard of any of the problems I had, when I found a dealer to look at it

I hope they have to fix them and lose alot of money doing it, also like to see them have the **** sued out of them


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## aintmisbehavinn (Feb 9, 2006)

Sounds like you need another dealership. Mine has gone over and beyond. One sorry dealer isn't going to take down the entire GM line.


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## aintmisbehavinn (Feb 9, 2006)

jortegasr said:


> I should of held out for the Shelby GT500. I had a Mustang before the goat. It had over 160,000 miles and the only thing I had to replace was the clutch at 120,000 miles.


Go and get one, trade the GOAT. We need more Mustangs to weld.


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## AA GTO SP (Nov 11, 2006)

One bad dealership may not bring GM down, but a lot of bad ones are.


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## Taxman (Dec 24, 2005)

AA GTO SP said:


> One bad dealership may not bring GM down, but a lot of bad ones are.


All 4 in the area I went to where no help when looking to buy one, only went to 3 for warranty service no help there either


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## Idleclamp (Aug 2, 2006)

Taxman said:


> All 4 in the area I went to where no help when looking to buy one, only went to 3 for warranty service no help there either


You might try filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. Dealerships hate those. My dealership did an under-handed thing right after I bought my car. They kept telling me they would make it right, but never did. After two weeks of this tap-dancing and un-returned phone calls from them, I filed a complaint, and the owner of the dealership responded to the BBB. Long story short, I got things resolved very quickly to my semi-satisfaction, but I will NEVER buy a car from FERGUSON PONTIAC in Broken Arrow, OK again.:shutme 

Just a thought.


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## 04m6gto (Feb 4, 2007)

*tire rub*

THE SAME DAY I PICKED UP MY 04 GOAT,I STOP AT TIRE DISCOUNTERS AND HAD TWO 235/45/17S PUT ON THE FRONT. I WOULD RATHER LOSE 10MM OF WIDTH THEN HAVE THE RUB. NO PROBLEMS THUS FAR.STREAMLINE HERE IN COLUMBUS OH DID THE ALINGMENT,THEY DO VERY GOOD WORK.:seeya:


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## aintmisbehavinn (Feb 9, 2006)

Taxman said:


> All 4 in the area I went to where no help when looking to buy one, only went to 3 for warranty service no help there either


The guys in Atlanta jump through hoops. Guess it depends on where you live. Even Alabama has help me on a trip one day when my radio quit.


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## 75coug (Apr 8, 2005)

AA GTO SP said:


> One bad dealership may not bring GM down, but a lot of bad ones are.


You can add my dealership to the list. I am sorely tempted to dump this car in the river, just to get rid of it.


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## GTO4now (Sep 12, 2006)

aintmisbehavinn said:


> The guys in Atlanta jump through hoops. Guess it depends on where you live. Even Alabama has help me on a trip one day when my radio quit.


Which dealers are you referring to? I'd really like to know.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2007)

*Tire Issues*

I have a 2005 Goat with 11000 miles on it.. No sign of inside tire wear at all. I contacted at least 10 different dealers. They all told me they have heard of the problem but NEVER had a customer complaint. I also called several tire and wheel shops. None of them are aware of any such problem. I have the stock 17 in wheels on mine and there is a ton of clearance between the Struts and the tires..I check air pressure 2 or 3 times a month and keep all 4 tires at around 36 PSI.. The only way I can see a tire rubbing the strut is if the Wheel is WAY out of alignment or they are VERY low on air pressure but even if both of these items are happening at the same time, there should be enough space between the tire and the strut..If you are concerned that this failure may happen to you,, just put in a wheel spacer. 1/8 or 1/4 inch will do the trick


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## LS2Greg (Sep 13, 2006)

baron_iv said:


> Gotta love the government...jumping in nearly 3 years after the problem reared its ugly head!


AMEN!!! Friggin idiots!!!


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2007)

*tire rub*

it is not just the 17 inch stock rims,, it is also the 18s..a friend of mine from Florida had this problem just last week and he has the optional 18 inch wheels from Pontiac, he told me he runs the tires a little on the low side for air preasure and I think that is the problem, High performance tires lose air quickly, you can lose over 10 PSI in less than a month..I keep mine at 36, check them every week . I have 11000 miles on my 05 Goat. no problems at all


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## DrFix2Fly (Oct 27, 2004)

Last week I filed my complaint to the NHTSA regarding strut rub. Within days an investigator emailed me back requesting more detailed information. Of course I directed him to this website for discussion and pictures. The one piece of information I wish I had was the pre-alignment specs before my dealer performed the alignment to "correct" my problem. I would suggest everyone to check their tires for this regularly and if this problem is found, please forward your complaint to the NHTSA. It only took me about 15 minutes to do.


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## dcarlock (Jan 28, 2007)

*a bunch of smoke*

I have an 05, no signs of wear at 4500 miles. I had an allignment done within the first 100 miles by my buddy. 17" Wheels. I have no problems whatsoever. Absolutely no signs. I do not understand all this nonsense.


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## Taxman (Dec 24, 2005)

DrFix2Fly said:


> Last week I filed my complaint to the NHTSA regarding strut rub. Within days an investigator emailed me back requesting more detailed information. Of course I directed him to this website for discussion and pictures. The one piece of information I wish I had was the pre-alignment specs before my dealer performed the alignment to "correct" my problem. I would suggest everyone to check their tires for this regularly and if this problem is found, please forward your complaint to the NHTSA. It only took me about 15 minutes to do.


I just sent back the papers on mine.

I wonder if Im going to get a call from GM offering me a Free tire detail to make things right like they did with my BBB complaint


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## GRR_RRR (Oct 19, 2006)

LS2Greg said:


> AMEN!!! Friggin idiots!!!


Yeah. You much smarter, eh Boss?


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## Scott5000 (Mar 22, 2005)

Great, just what we need to help the value of our cars plummet even more than they already have. Are we all sure this is not some sales pitch that "Pedders" is trying to promote to ensure they have someone to sell parts to for the next two years?


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## TR GTO (Mar 17, 2007)

dcarlock said:


> I have an 05, no signs of wear at 4500 miles. I had an allignment done within the first 100 miles by my buddy. 17" Wheels. I have no problems whatsoever. Absolutely no signs. I do not understand all this nonsense.


It's not all cars, but a number of them have it. I see signs of it on mine and the strut is almost against the tire at rest. I'll be going to the dealer ASAP.


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## aintmisbehavinn (Feb 9, 2006)

GTO4now said:


> Which dealers are you referring to? I'd really like to know.


Colonial in Lawrenceville, talk to Kevin, McGough in Montgomery. Colonial has been very helpful, even replaced my rotors and brakes under warranty when I burned them up at Road Atlanta.


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## Bertich (Mar 7, 2007)

why2kmax said:


> Its only a problem on the 17" rims with 245 series tires. Correct alignment from pontac TAC and tires at 35 psi COLD usually fixes the problem but yeah it IS a problem.
> 
> 18" rims with 235 dont have the problem If you want intricate details go to ls1gto.com and do a search on strut rub. more info than you can handle


That's a releif, thanks.


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## TORRED1 (Apr 1, 2007)

New to the site, lots of good info. Have an 04 in guess? (torrid red), 26k miles on car so far and no sign of problem, but will keep and eye out for it. Put 5400 mile on it this past fall in 14 days taking a trip out west, car was fully loaded, trunk and back seat were full. Wife and I had a blast, never got tired of being in the car or driving it, averaged 27mpg for the whole trip, from the hills of western pa to the mountains in Idaho and Colorado up to 11000 feet. The goat must have felt at home in the mtn's, it ate up those swtichbacks like nothing else. Love this car


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## bluebluemblue (Dec 20, 2006)

Victory Pontiac in Calera, Alabama 205-664-0046
www.victorygm.com

Concerning my 2004 Pontiac GTO

Confirmed my 17" rims with OEM tires rub the front struts.
Tires that match the badge on the door jamb and inflated cold to 35 PSI.

Ray Haynie is the service manager, [email protected]. Mr. Haynie explains it is a problem and that I have to pay for new tires.
Mr. Haynie went on to say Pontiac has no responsibility to correct the problem under warranty. Mine is under warranty and then some

I had other issues...instrument panel problem and door locks. These did not happen so neither were looked at. I had TSB and the NHTSA in hand.
Even had the GM ESC download for the dash problem.

If you own a GTO in central Alabama do not bother with Victory Pontiac in Calera. I thought sice they are just 3 years old they might try to do right.
I was wrong.

My first and last Pontiac product. I have never dealt with such sorry and dishonest....lazy customer support. 

The tires rubbing are a huge problem that could be deadly.


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## 75coug (Apr 8, 2005)

Your story is frighteningly similar to mine, which is why I traded in my Goat yesterday. It's a shame, because it was a great car, but for the dangerous defect. Goodbye forever, Pontiac.


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## TORRED1 (Apr 1, 2007)

I have no complaints about my service rep at Bowser Pontiac here in the Pittsburgh area, they have bent over backwards to resolve any and all issues I have had, My only major problem was with the E brake not latching when pulled up, they ordered the part and resolved the issue, I had to take it back for adjustment, but again it was resolved without complaint or fuss, I figure there is a learning curve on these cars and will give some leway on resolving issues, but they are resolved. They even went so far as to replace a battery that was leaking ( dont know why and it was not cracked) after almost 2 yrs of service, they even went so far as to replace the battery tray, the sway bar bushing clamp and the battery wrap that goes around the battery.due to battery acid corosion. I feel that if i have any issues with this tire problem that they would resolve the problem to my satisfaction, I would recomend them to anyone, it is truley a shame that there are dealers that don't understand what the word service means, or understand what it takes to keep a customer


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## Bertich (Mar 7, 2007)

I have a 2006 with the 18" wheels. With just under 5000 miles I removed the wheels to get them chromed. I inspected the wheels carefully and saw no sign of rub on the tires or the struts. I have a GHL exhaust system on the way and I will inspect everything again but so far I have nothing but praise for my car and Philllips Pontiac in Laguna Hills CA where I purchased it. For anyone thinking of buying a GTO if this bad plublicity hepls you get one cheaper go for it. It is a fantastic car. No manufacturer is imune to recalls or service issues including Toyota. All of the domestic manufacturers have put a major emphasis on improving quality in the last decadade and it shows on my GTO.


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## DAH GTO (Mar 5, 2005)

As far as dealership service, Don Miller Pontiac in Madison WI is a pretty good dealership. I have an 04, never had the tire strut rub problem until I had Don Miller rotate the tires at 5900 miles. The moment I drove away from the garage, I heard a rubbing sound on the passenger front tire. I turned right around and had them re-rotate the tires back to the original layout and then the rubbing sound was gone. That was late last fall and up until a couple of weeks ago, I haven't driven it since. I was at Don Miller Pontiac this past Friday and they said the fix identified from Pontiac is to turn the strut upside down, apparently the strut is narrower at the bottm. They need the car all day, so I will be taking it in soon. 

My only question is, will the upside down strut cause handling issues? The dealership said it wouldn't, but what else would they say.


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## TR GTO (Mar 17, 2007)

I haven't had strut rub since I put a set of stock 18s on my 04.


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## 1badbrazen (Apr 8, 2007)

whats going on with this???


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## Taxman (Dec 24, 2005)

1badbrazen said:


> whats going on with this???


Sent in the forms they sent me, havent heard anything


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## sjbbq (Nov 8, 2004)

*GTO vs Toyota*

the latest contact from my dealer was to ask me if i wanted to trade in my 2004 GTO. my reply was a would trade even for a 2006. the phone went quiet and then they hung up. i guess this is Pontiacs way of getting the problems( tires) off the street. will be visiting dealer next week with digital pictures of tire rub and hope to get the original spec tires that they use in Aussie. i have not heard any complaints from down under yet. i just wonder why they changed the tire and wheel size from the aussie monaro. will not part with the 2004 , just not ready to drive a toyota yet.

:cheers


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## Taxman (Dec 24, 2005)

sjbbq said:


> the latest contact from my dealer was to ask me if i wanted to trade in my 2004 GTO. my reply was a would trade even for a 2006. the phone went quiet and then they hung up. i guess this is Pontiacs way of getting the problems( tires) off the street. will be visiting dealer next week with digital pictures of tire rub and hope to get the original spec tires that they use in Aussie. i have not heard any complaints from down under yet. i just wonder why they changed the tire and wheel size from the aussie monaro. will not part with the 2004 , just not ready to drive a toyota yet.
> 
> :cheers


Driving a Toyota now, working well for my usues


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## GibsonUSA (Jan 8, 2006)

*How do you tell?*

How worn does the inside tread have to look to indicate stut rub?

I checked my tires today and on the front passenger side....yeah the inside is a LITTLE more worn than the outside. 
Like, the outside tread still looks new and the inside is slightly worn, but its not even close to looking bald yet and all the tread patterns are still very well defined.

So is that strut rub? I see pictorial examples of strut rubs where the inside of the tire is almost bald compared to the outside. Mine is nowhere near close to that. Without looking at the outside the inside looks fine.

So how do you tell?


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## DrFix2Fly (Oct 27, 2004)

It's not the tread patch that wears funny, it's the inner sidewall where it meets the tread. You should take both front wheels off and take a good look at them and at the struts. I got lucky and probably saved myself from an accident.


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## sjbbq (Nov 8, 2004)

Taxman said:


> Driving a Toyota now, working well for my usues


 :agree 
Finally got to visit my dealer and they took off wheels and saw the rubbing on tires and struts, but said it did not look to be any trouble. the Service advisor said since they did not have any recalls on this issue then their hands were tied. they suggested i write in to Pontiac and complain, which i have just finished doing. 

until i get this resolved i will have to use my other vehicle. 99 f-250 crew cab, a gas guzzler if there ever was one. 

:cheers


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## NEXSTAR7 (Jan 28, 2007)

i guess there waiting till someone gets killed or hurt and then sue for a couple of million.


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## Taxman (Dec 24, 2005)

sjbbq said:


> :agree
> Finally got to visit my dealer and they took off wheels and saw the rubbing on tires and struts, but said it did not look to be any trouble. the Service advisor said since they did not have any recalls on this issue then their hands were tied. they suggested i write in to Pontiac and complain, which i have just finished doing.
> 
> until i get this resolved i will have to use my other vehicle. 99 f-250 crew cab, a gas guzzler if there ever was one.
> ...



Between the strut rub, overheat, transmission issues and other smaller problems I would have been better off with a $500 car. Only thing I got from dealer was worse problems, a missing lug nut, days and tanks of gas wasted.


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## Taxman (Dec 24, 2005)

NEXSTAR7 said:


> i guess there waiting till someone gets killed or hurt and then sue for a couple of million.



I said something about that, then that advised me not to drive it and to take public transit for a week until a dealer would look at it.


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## 75coug (Apr 8, 2005)

I have now heard from a federal investigator with the Department of Transportation, and will be providing him with all of my details pursuant to his request. 

I just wish that I would have thought to have photographed the tires' wear before I sold the GTO out of frustration with Pontiac and my dealer.


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## germanchris85 (Mar 20, 2007)

I bought my 2004 GTO used with 28k. it never had any strut problems until now. it has just about 32k on it. is it safe to say that my car will not suffer from this problem?


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## PapitoGTO (Aug 17, 2006)

Possible class action lawsuit:

http://www.pontiacgtoclassaction.com/


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## TR GTO (Mar 17, 2007)

PapitoGTO said:


> Possible class action lawsuit:
> 
> http://www.pontiacgtoclassaction.com/


I found that link off my Myspace. It must have been attached since I had something about my car on my site. I filled it out since the more people down with this, the more push there will be behind it.


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## Zebra (Sep 2, 2006)

This was posted by DAH GTO on 11-2-06

_Talked to my Pontiac dealer this morning and there is a technical service bulletin (TSB) on the strut rub issue, it's TSB 1835023. The TSB states to turn the strut spring upside down. Apparently the spring is tapered and the narrower portion is currently the bottom of the spring, so be flipping it, we gain more clearance. Anyone have any concerns from a handling/performance standpoint? 

This seems bogus, but maybe no big deal?_

Has anyone had their struts inverted? I've also heard having the camber set at zero degrees helps. Also, would changing the tire from 245/45 to 235/45 seal on the wheel?


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## DAH GTO (Mar 5, 2005)

Zebra said:


> This was posted by DAH GTO on 11-2-06
> 
> _Talked to my Pontiac dealer this morning and there is a technical service bulletin (TSB) on the strut rub issue, it's TSB 1835023. The TSB states to turn the strut spring upside down. Apparently the spring is tapered and the narrower portion is currently the bottom of the spring, so be flipping it, we gain more clearance. Anyone have any concerns from a handling/performance standpoint?
> 
> ...


I actually obtained a copy of the TSB, it has nothing to do with strut rub, it's if your coils make a clicking sound. 

At that point, I gave the dealer a ton of information in regards to the strut rub problems who is now convinced there is a problem with the OEM components. I am in the process of convincing the dealership to replace my struts, strut bushings, etc. with after market components such as Pedders. The dealer said he has received one level of approval, just needs approval from one more person at a higher level. The dealer said he sees no reason why the next level won't approve. I should know by tomorrow, June 4th. Stay tuned.


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## DAH GTO (Mar 5, 2005)

I just spoke to my dealer and he tells once they get the approval, they will replace the strut parts with Moog brand. I personnaly do not have any knowledge or experience with Moog parts. Anyone care to offer their perspective on Moog quality, performance, etc.


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## puckhog (Apr 26, 2007)

Many years ago I sold Moog suspension parts - they were of high quality.
I assume since they are still flogging parts today, they are a reputable company.


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## DJ Dannis (May 9, 2006)

Filed my complaints with NHTSA and the auto safety commission. If any investigators are looking for more, I still have the tires mounted on my vehicle with no adjustments at this time. Let me know and forward them my way. I'd like to do what I can to contribute. I am taking the vehicle into the dealership on Friday, so changes may be made anytime after that unless I hear otherwise.

Thanks,
Dan


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## DrFix2Fly (Oct 27, 2004)

While you are there, make sure you either get a printout of the pre and post alignment settings and the ranges. I would like to know what the actual range of camber is because my tires wore on one side even though they were in the "green" range. Please report back to us with all the numbers and don't be afraid to ask the tech to let you watch.


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## Stl-GTO Owner (Jun 5, 2007)

Zebra said:


> This was posted by DAH GTO on 11-2-06
> 
> _Talked to my Pontiac dealer this morning and there is a technical service bulletin (TSB) on the strut rub issue, it's TSB 1835023. The TSB states to turn the strut spring upside down. Apparently the spring is tapered and the narrower portion is currently the bottom of the spring, so be flipping it, we gain more clearance. Anyone have any concerns from a handling/performance standpoint?
> 
> ...


I have 18 in 235/45's Bridgestone Potenza on my GTO and have not seen any issues with Strut rub as of yet. I have 10,745 miles on the tires. Have most of the Strut rub issues been with the 245/45 tires?


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## DrFix2Fly (Oct 27, 2004)

Yes, the problem is predominately with the 17s with the 245mm tires since you lose 5mm of inboard clearance between the tire and strut than the original Monaro which was fitted with 235mm, and the 17s have more flex in the sidewall than the 18s. Add the two problems together and you have an HSTSA investigation. Later models have other strut issues.


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2007)

*Strut*

This is all new to me. I did not know of this problem when I purchased my car about 10 days ago.
Is this a common problem. and if I have this happen to me. Is it an easy fix or repaired under warrenty


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## DrFix2Fly (Oct 27, 2004)

This problem is quite common and very dangerous. The NHSTA has a pending investigation after about 100 complaints involving accidents. All owners should inspect their tires and struts regularly. I got lucky and found mine were shredded when I did a scheduled rotation. Perhaps you won't have to worry since your stupid mayor just approved an ID card for illegal aliens living in New Haven so your car will probably get stolen anyway.


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## DJ Dannis (May 9, 2006)

DrFix2Fly said:


> While you are there, make sure you either get a printout of the pre and post alignment settings and the ranges. I would like to know what the actual range of camber is because my tires wore on one side even though they were in the "green" range. Please report back to us with all the numbers and don't be afraid to ask the tech to let you watch.


I will try and gather the requested information. I took the front right tire off today and this is what I saw. The driver's side is more of the same... Going into dealer tomorrow.


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## redrocketgto (Jul 14, 2005)

It just may be that a few of the accidents that resulted in a fatality was caused by this defect,it makes you wonder.


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## DJ Dannis (May 9, 2006)

Update - I went to dealership and they did a realignment. I do have the spec sheets from the before and after that you wanted, but I need to convert those sheets to jpeg and post. So the latest may be Monday. Other than that, the main rubbing on the passenger side was from the camber being set at -1.1 degrees. Ouch. I had the vehicle realigned once at the dealer about 13000 miles ago. The camber is now within tolerance but looks a bit more out at the top now than the back... Now they are looking into possibly replacing my tires, which would be nice, but we will see. I will post updates as they transpire...

Dan


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## Taxman (Dec 24, 2005)

andersen54981 said:


> So get your self a Toyota.......


+1

I like my Toyota.

Mine had this along with other problems, never could get most dealers to even touch the car. The one that did made excuses until I left, after driving an hour to get there. I got rid of mine, but feel bad for whoever got it, it should have went to CMC for crushing instead of a lot as a used car. Had 25k when it was traded and more problems then everything else I have owned combined.

Would have been a good car, if it didnt have this, transmission issues, electronic issues, outside seals and the finish on the seats coming off. I think the random overheat alarms were electronic other then real overheats. 

Im more angry about lack of support and no assistance from GM and dealers then I am about the car itsself


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## Taxman (Dec 24, 2005)

wildhotgoat said:


> This is all new to me. I did not know of this problem when I purchased my car about 10 days ago.
> Is this a common problem. and if I have this happen to me. Is it an easy fix or repaired under warrenty


Some people say they fix it. Some like mine they wont touch it under a warranty and want it out of your pocket


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## Joey R (Mar 29, 2007)

... I wonder if my little "incident" was caused by this litte "defect"... My accident happened May 1st, it was scheduled to be repaired (struts) on the 7th. Coincidence?:confused


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## DJ Dannis (May 9, 2006)

PM me with your email if you want the specs from the dealership before the alignment was done. I got GM to at least give me two new tires and a free alignment. I'm not complaining right now... For now, I have moved off to the 18's with 235s.

Dan


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