# Need idea's for starter issues when hot



## 70gsimp (Aug 6, 2013)

Got a 65 lemans with a 326 4 speed. Recently been tinkering around with a starter issue and am being dumbfounded on a problem. First lets start with the charging problem. My alternator puts out about 12.6 volts, as to which back at the battery is 12.6 volts. I am not hotter at the alternator for some reason, i thought it was suppose to be like 13 1/2 or more volts coming outta the alternator. Alternator is brand new, i have checked my wiring and like i said, its no hotter at the alt then at the battery. Now...starter issues. When i drive the car around a few miles and get it warmed up and turn it off. I can't restart the car. It acts like a dead battery. Now when it cools after about 30 minutes, i can restart it. So I build a heat shield, install it so it wraps around the solenoid. Still the same issue, wont start, acts like a dead battery. Now this brings me back to the voltage not being higher coming outta the alternator. Ok guys, i know this could be fixed with a external solenoid, but i don't like that idea. Now when I had the starter rebuilt, the local electrical auto repair guy put a new solenoid on and told me i had the better starter because there are 2 copper little bars on the motor part coming up to the solenoid, meaning supposedly that this is better than 1 copper bar. Ok guys i am listening, please give any and all advice. There has to be something i can do besides putting a solenoid on the firewall.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

12.6 volts running is not enough. You're looking for more around 14.3-14.6v. If the alt is new, I'd swap out the voltage regulator and don't get the cheap one. Just sayin....


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## 70gsimp (Aug 6, 2013)

Brand new voltage regulator, and it wasnt a cheap one, $55, but will that make the voltage higher ? I mean i can test the volts coming outta the alt, and like i said its only like 12.6


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Steamed nerves*

I recently got a new alternator, and had to bring it back the very next day! They tested it- YUP! It was faulty! Got another brand, and that was it. And don't you think I wasn't a little hot under the collar, neither!


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Voltage at the back of the alt should be the same at the battery, and it should be between 14.0 and 14.6v at an idle. Like I mentioned earlier, I'd like to see 14.3-14.6v.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*^^^^^*

:agree :agree If you don't, you might want to check for bad wires. If no bad wires, you might best take the alternator in to check the output. They build 'em mighty crappy, these days!


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## jmt455 (Mar 26, 2012)

As far as alternator output is concerned, I agree with the previous posts...Regulator X3. 

The hot start issue is fairly common on Pontiacs. 
Wrapping the solenoid might help, but you probably should use the original style metal shield. They're available from any of the Pontiac restoration suppliers.

The problem is more likely due to the higher resistance that results from elevated temperatures. I would go through the entire starter, ground and solenoid wiring. The connections on the battery cables, ground straps and three ground connection to the block must be clean, tight and free of corrosion. You might want to replace the battery cables with new, heavy gauge cables; sometimes there is corrosion in the terminal connections that is not visible.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*.000*

Might not hurt to load test that battery, also. But if the alt is only putting out 12 point some odd v's... Make sure that regulator is grounded good too, just for good measure...


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## 70gsimp (Aug 6, 2013)

I forgot to mention that this was a recent ground up restore. All cables are new, i've checked all grounds, they are clean and free of any debris. The battery cables are the big thick ones. Battery is an optima about 3 yrs old, it charges up perfect with the charger, and will hold the charge fine. It's just these dang hot starts, and no 14 or 13 something volts coming out of the alternator, i have re ordered a different alternator. Now guy's don't laugh, but it's an autozone alternator, their best alternator with limited lifetime warranty. If i get the same results i will go to napa. I have never had a problem with autozone as long as i buy their best stuff. As for the voltage regulator, i bought a good one from the local auto electric repair shop, delco remy.


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## 70gsimp (Aug 6, 2013)

as for grounds, i have the battery to between 1 and 3 cylinder grounded by a head bolt with an extra nut on it, i have the back of the motor to the firewall ground, i have the front ot the motor on passenger side to the frame grounded, and i have an extra from the battery to the front radiator core support. Hopefully this is enough, and i just checked all the grounds, they are clean and debris free, battery post's too.


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## 70gsimp (Aug 6, 2013)

load test.... you mean turn something on while its running and check the volt's?....it drops a little but not much. Like turning on the headlights...if i am 12.6 it may drop to 12.3 or 4.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

That's way too low. Either your alt is bad or your VR.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Hencho en cervezas*

Like I said previously, just about 2 months or so ago, bought a new alternator from the parts people (like you), stuck it in (I had no charging issues at all with the old one- voltages were fine, but the alternator bearings were growling). Put a new alternator on it, seemed to be working ok, then nothing! Then it did. Then it didn't. {Pulled it apart *SHHH* to see what was up (I've had thousands and thousands of them apart} Someone had too many cervezas when they constructed it. (Hencho en Mejico). They forgot to install the primary wire nut on the fool thing! There was something up with the ground wire also, as I recall. Took it straight back to them, had them test it, and give me a new one-AT THEIR COST! (Well, I upgraded, and paid the difference, but breathed not a word of my dastardly deeds  ). To load test a battery, you need to bring it to a parts place, and have them do it with a load tester. (Puts a serious load on a battery, then checks the amperage output- a good indicator of the batteries' health. Wouldn't worry so much about that, though, here. It can be hard on a marginal battery, and still would need a good charge after that). I side with Rukee on this.


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## jmt455 (Mar 26, 2012)

70gsimp said:


> as for grounds, i have the battery to between 1 and 3 cylinder grounded by a head bolt with an extra nut on it, i have the back of the motor to the firewall ground, i have the front ot the motor on passenger side to the frame grounded, and i have an extra from the battery to the front radiator core support. Hopefully this is enough, and i just checked all the grounds, they are clean and debris free, battery post's too.



That alternator output is a problem. The alternator should be putting out between 14.0 to 14.6V as mentioned earlier.

If it's not, then there is a problem with the alternator, the voltage regulator and/or the battery. New does not necessarily mean good...

When you confirmed all grounds were good, did you also check the voltage regulator ground connection? I think this was also mentioned earlier; it is critical. Mine looked good but there was so much primer and paint in the holes, the attaching screws were not making good metal-to-metal contact to the firewall. I had to use a larger diameter screw and a serrated (tooth) washer to get it to work properly.


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## Norms68 (Jul 17, 2013)

70gsimp,

I had a similar hot starting issue with my 68 GTO. It seemed like the ignition wire going to the starter solenoid would touch the hot block in a couple places and increase the resistance in the wire. I ended up adding a couple brackets and made sure that the wire didn't touch any metal.

I haven't had any hot starting problems since that.


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## InjunRAIV (Aug 21, 2013)

Alternator output is definitely low, but I don't think this is the final problem. I think the starter has an issue.

But I've been wrong before... :dunce:


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*And more...*

If that battery isn't topped off properly by the alternator while running, you'll soon be experiencing hard starting issues on a cold engine... Just sayin"... BUT, it sure cant hurt to check the wires going to it. You can pull the starter and have it checked. Also, if you have an automatic, I've seen plenty of neutral safety switches crap out, (even to the point of melting the wires), causing excessive draw and lousy starting action.


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## 70gsimp (Aug 6, 2013)

i spent the money on a good voltage regulator, i have re-checked every ground, i have even taken the new alternator back to autozone and had them re-check ir while i had me meter on it and it did push out up and over 14 volts, so i exchanged it anyways for the new one and it also checked good in the store. I come home, install it and i am back to the same 12.6 volts again. So i take the brand new VR off, take it back to the store and the tech confirms that the new VR isnt any good. WTH.....so he is ordering another, it will be in tomorrow. Hopefully this is the problem. If it isn't.......has anybody ever ran into a problem with anything under the dash causing this problem? I have checked, re-checked 2 x's all my wiring with my cd-rom.....trust me guy's.....i have everything right there. My father says i have too many grounds, he's 67, what does Dad know? Like i said before, i have the ground to the engine head between 1 and 3 cylinder, i have the passenger side rear of the head grounded to the firewall, i have that same head in the front grounded to the frame, and from the negative post on the battery grounded to the radiator core support. Now another question. On this new alternator there is a ground bolt with a nut there that the other alternator didnt have. I took a jumper wire from that to any of the grounds i have and no improvement. Should i have a ground wire on that alternator too? Would this new VR he has ordered make a difference in the output of the alternator. This is stuff that cd-rom doesn't tell you. Thanks in advance for any and all advices guy's. this is a great website.


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## 70gsimp (Aug 6, 2013)

What would i look for with the starter? It starts the car just fine when cold. It is what the tech called the heavy duty starter because of the 2 copper pieces coming out of the motor area to the solenoid. This starter like i said also was rebuilt and has a new solenoid on it.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Groundhogs*

No. That FAULTY voltage regulator is more than likely the culprit. You can probably bet your bottom dollar on it. Like I said before. Most new crap they sell is basically Garbage (in my book). It is either hit or miss. As far as too many grounds: You can never have too many grounds. (That's my story, and I'm sticking to it). Aside from double checking vr ground, sounds like this is a non issue here, though. You should be good with what you have. Again, as jmt has said (and others) make sure that vr ground is *CLEAN!*.  As far as alt. ground, I used the one on mine to run a relay ground for the electric choke. (It was convenient). It's probably neither here nor there, but it wouldn't hurt putting one there, also.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

#1 problem, Autozone! Yes they have cheap parts, but they have cheap parts.


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## InjunRAIV (Aug 21, 2013)

Meh. Does ANYONE have good parts any more? I shudder when I look at the crap my local NAPA sells. I used to work for NAPA back in the 90s and it just isn't the same.


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## 21553 (Sep 30, 2012)

70gsimp said:


> i spent the money on a good voltage regulator, i have re-checked every ground, i have even taken the new alternator back to autozone and had them re-check ir while i had me meter on it and it did push out up and over 14 volts, so i exchanged it anyways for the new one and it also checked good in the store. I come home, install it and i am back to the same 12.6 volts again. So i take the brand new VR off, take it back to the store and the tech confirms that the new VR isnt any good. WTH.....so he is ordering another, it will be in tomorrow. Hopefully this is the problem. If it isn't.......has anybody ever ran into a problem with anything under the dash causing this problem? I have checked, re-checked 2 x's all my wiring with my cd-rom.....trust me guy's.....i have everything right there. My father says i have too many grounds, he's 67, what does Dad know? Like i said before, i have the ground to the engine head between 1 and 3 cylinder, i have the passenger side rear of the head grounded to the firewall, i have that same head in the front grounded to the frame, and from the negative post on the battery grounded to the radiator core support. Now another question. On this new alternator there is a ground bolt with a nut there that the other alternator didnt have. I took a jumper wire from that to any of the grounds i have and no improvement. Should i have a ground wire on that alternator too? Would this new VR he has ordered make a difference in the output of the alternator. This is stuff that cd-rom doesn't tell you. Thanks in advance for any and all advices guy's. this is a great website.


Sounds like the VR will solve the charging problem. 

I also had a hot start issue. What ended up working me was to add a simple relay from the ignition swith. When I measured the voltage at the starter lug was only 9.2VDC. When the engine is cold this was enough pull in and hold the solendoid. Once all the components are heated the resistance increases lowering the voltage at the solendoid. The stater will slowly turn but not enough to start until it cools down just a bit. Low voltage will cause the solenoid to flutter and the voltage will arc across the contacts. If it is really bad all you will get is a click. The ignition switch ages and more resistance causing lower voltage along with the wire. Many folks add a "Ford solendoid" to the system allowing a heavy gauge wire to be added between the battery and the ignition terminal on the starter. I didn't like the large ford solenoid. So I just added a relay to the circuit. Much smaller and I added to the firewall. This absolutely solved my hot start issue. I have a Powermaster XS ministarter. Also make sure your cable gauge is large enough for the distance and type or starter.


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

A possibility for the starter (not the charging issue, as they COULD be separate)

I've seen this and done this and it's a free fix if it is. Inside the solenoid is a copper disc which makes contact with the heavy post for the positive battery lead. The disc and post get burned over time and the connection resistance increases. There's two things to do here, actually. You can turn the disc over for a fresh patch of low resistance copper AND you can take the contact post out of the plastic housing and rotate it 180 degrees so that it has a clean, unburned point of contact. It'll take you an hour or so, but you'll have no $$ out of pocket. The "New Solenoid" could be the problem...

Just a thought...

Chuck


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## 70gsimp (Aug 6, 2013)

Just chatted here with a friend that is one of the "old timer" mechanics. He's a great guy to talk to, polite, and very knowledgeable on all this stuff. I am going out to the garage after i write this to check. The connection at the firewall to the back of the fusebox needs to be checked for loose connections. There are 2 plug ins there, 1 for engine harness and 1 lighting harness. He said that these connections over time loosen up. I am out to check it. Chucha62 i will check your idea next. I did get a new VR and the tech at the shop says he tested it and its good. I put the new VR on and I am slightly under 13v....like 12.8......but at autozone i had them spin the new alt and my meter read 14.5 or 6. I come home, install everything again and it's putting out under 13.......a man can go freaking crazy trying to solve this.....thanks again guy's for all you input's....i will find this bugger and conquer it or i will die trying....


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## 70gsimp (Aug 6, 2013)

Ok everybody who's helping me on this. I have not been sucessfull at any of the above. I had the new alternator checked.....at the store it is spinning out like 14.5 volts.....i bring it home again and i am lucky to get 13, at a rev 13. Now i am still running an idiot light on the dash. This idiot light keeps buzzing off around 900 rpm consistantly. I went and spent about 2 hours making sure the connection at the firewall is almost perfect. I don't know what else I can do. Any and all help is appreciated.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Opti-WHAT?????*

O.K. Bring that Opt-i-crap battery (I had no opinion about this battery, until I read a bunch of posts about it lately) up to Crap-Mart mechanical section and have it load tested. They have a nice hand held electronic device they use there. The battery may not be able to accept a normal charge. (Be prepared to charge it, or pitch it after that). I actually went through this a couple of months ago with the Nissan Altima. 13.4 volts it was putting out. Changed alternator (with built in regulator). 13.4 volts. Had load test done, battery crapped out. Replaced. No more problem. Doesn't really make sense, but there it is.


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## 70gsimp (Aug 6, 2013)

That's a good idea....that is the only thing i have not done yet is load test this battery. Thought that the optima batteries were supposed to be the best you can get.....maybe i'm wrong, I only used it because it was fairly new and i got it free. It worked on my truck without any issues.


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## 70gsimp (Aug 6, 2013)

Hey here's a new thought. When i took back the VR the guy there told me that the old one was no good even though it was brand new. I asked him if he checked the new one and he said yes and that he got 13.2 out of it. I pretty sure i heard him right, all i really heard well was it was good. Will this new voltage regulator be a problem?


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Sorry Optima fans...*

I still believe that is where the issue really lies, though, is with the vr or alt. (And sorry to anyone with Optima batteries-just saw a few bad posts about it). I did a small test not too long ago, and brought a known good starter into be tested-(well, it wasn't perfect, but still cranked up the 455 fine). Had all intentions of buying a new starter anyway, so I brought that one in and asked if they would test it. I stood right there and watched him do it. He fumbled around and did this and that, then declared: "it's dead!" I asks him, I sez: it won't even spin?" "Nope"! So, you see...  And it seems likely that this one (vr) will be a problem, if it's only putting out 13.2 max. That'll not "cut the mustard". I would hold off maybe on the battery load test, (but would be nice to eliminate that possibility) till you get a satisfactory voltage off the alt or vr. You may have to go through each circuit and eliminate all possibilities, one by one. A bad ignition switch, or neutral safety switch can cause all sorts of electrical anomalies if the contacts are bad, and too much resistance is present. A wire just barely shorting out would definitely cause this problem, also. Keep the chin up! You'll get there!


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## nineteen 65 (Jul 8, 2013)

*Charging issues*

I have read all the replies to the problem that 70gsimp is having and find all the input very interesting. I am not an expert on auto electrical so bear with me on my question. I never have had to check an alternator for output. It seems that all are on agreement with the fact that alternator output should be at 14.3-14.6v. Is this output dependent on rpm of the alternator. What I find confusing is why the difference between output results from the parts store vs actual output when installed back in the car. When output is checked is it done at at set rpm?


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

It should remain steady at any RPMs. If the alt tests good at the store then I'd bet the VR is bad. The last one I swapped out I had to get a few before getting one that worked right.


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

gjones said:


> I still believe that is where the issue really lies, though, is with the vr or alt. (And sorry to anyone with Optima batteries-just saw a few bad posts about it). I did a small test not too long ago, and brought a known good starter into be tested-(well, it wasn't perfect, but still cranked up the 455 fine). Had all intentions of buying a new starter anyway, so I brought that one in and asked if they would test it. I stood right there and watched him do it. He fumbled around and did this and that, then declared: "it's dead!" I asks him, I sez: it won't even spin?" "Nope"! So, you see...  And it seems likely that this one (vr) will be a problem, if it's only putting out 13.2 max. That'll not "cut the mustard". I would hold off maybe on the battery load test, (but would be nice to eliminate that possibility) till you get a satisfactory voltage off the alt or vr. You may have to go through each circuit and eliminate all possibilities, one by one. A bad ignition switch, or neutral safety switch can cause all sorts of electrical anomalies if the contacts are bad, and too much resistance is present. A wire just barely shorting out would definitely cause this problem, also. Keep the chin up! You'll get there!


I completely agree here! I jumped on the Optima band wagon a couple of years ago and had nothing but problems. I went back to a good Interstate lead acid and all my trouble disappeared.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*VR Condensor*

Hey, I almost forgot... On my voltage regulator (on the '66), there is a condensor plugged directly into the backside of that puppy. This may be just the thing to keep your vr noise and vibration to a minimum. Also stabilizes voltage flow.


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## 70gsimp (Aug 6, 2013)

This voltage regulator is my 3rd one since I've started trying to make this perfect. I am no expert on this, i build cars to work like they should. This is a very aggrevating problem that has had me searching for about 2 weeks for answers. I have still not found my problem. I can't get this alternator to function on the car like it does at the store. I had my tester on the new alternator, i watched what voltage it spun at the store. It's obviously something i am missing in my wiring. I have checked all grounds, all wire connections, firewall connection. The most dumbfounding thing to me is this idiot light buzzes around 850/900 rpm for a split second or so. At idle no buzzing idiot light, at a driving idle say like 1900/2000 rpm everything is fine. As i push in the clutch and the engine rpm comes down it buzzes at the rpm i mention above. Only at that certain rpm it does this. I know i need this 14.3 or 6 volts to make this correct. I have got to be missing something that i can't seem to find. Another question to all reading this. Could something inside under the dash cause my problem?


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## 70gsimp (Aug 6, 2013)

Twas the voltage regulator.....After all the hair pulling and the mf'rs being said in the garage and tools being thrown like a barbarian, i decided on a whim just to have everything checked again. The new alternator tested perfect. However, this expensive voltage regulator that i purchaseg only tested at 13.2. Being that it is the expensive VR, the tech took off the cover and pulled on something there a little and adjusted it from 13.2 to 14.6. retested it and the reading again pushed out 14.6. Ok guy's get it home and install everything again and wholly shitzky....the s o b worked. I look down at the VR and in big letters is says MADE IN USA. i couldn't believe it, all this stinking time of doing this and doing that, the stupid VR just needed a little pull. I conquered this problem today, isn't life great?


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*Why, those lousy.........*

Very strange that it took three to find the right one. Well, no. Not really. *EVERYTHING* manufactured in this horrendous day and age *SUCKS!!!!!*Plus, you pay 4x what the piece of crap is worth!!! Yes. EVERY component is suspect. Take *NOTHING* for granted!!! Unbelievable! Sickening! No quality control whatsoever. I am happy to report I've found "my beam", and'll not be having to deal with this garbage much longer. :cool


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