# Restoring Pop’s ’64 Lemans



## [miko] (Feb 17, 2011)

Guess it's always good to start at the very beginning. 

Back in '63, my dad had just graduated high school. For a bunch of reasons Pop couldn’t head off to college right away. So to make the best of things, he worked an extra field on the family farm in addition to running the daily dairy operation. For that year and part of the next he saved what he made from that field so that he could buy a brand new car – a car that he would love. 

With cash in hand he ordered a '64 Lemans from the factory - a Marimba Red convertible with a 4-speed manual. For the next few years the car shared his life and in many ways influenced it. When he finally did get to college, his roommate’s sister needed a ride since his roommates ’58 Ford Fairlane had a dead battery. She was impressed enough with the car (ok, maybe with him too) that they started to date. He was pretty impressed that she could make the Lemans go just about as well as he could, so decided she was a keeper and married her. She still recalls how she knew he was on his way to get her by the rumble of the glasspack muffler across campus.

Pop's Lemans on the farm...









Mom & Pop with the Lemans...









The car stayed with them as she graduated but Pop’s draft number soon came up before he could finish his degree. Since he was a conscientious objector, he decided to do his 1-W Mission Supporting Service in Africa, serving as the maintenance coordinator of a small mission hospital. But with no salary they decided they couldn’t keep the car, selling it to a local family. 

They returned from Africa with me in tow, so Pop had to give up convertible coupes for more sensible cars. But Pop always wanted to get that car back in some way and later in life even tried to replicate it with a ’69 AMC Rebel convertible, but it just wasn’t the same.

Flash forward over 20 years later to the mid 90’s. On one of Pop’s birthdays Mom decided to take him for a little drive, visiting the areas from when they first got married. A turn or two later and she pulls into a familiar house - the family that they sold the Lemans to back in the late 60’s. Mom had done her research and found out that they still had the car. With a look of shock (and a ‘yer shi**ing me!’), they led Pop to the garage and there was his ’64. It had survived as the run around for the two boys who had now gone off to college and was just sitting in storage. They eventually got around to asking if it might be for sale and after a little haggling it was a done deal. He now had his car back.

Over the years Pop has had a little work done on the car, but only enough to fire it up every once in a while. It’s pretty much been in storage with the expectation that eventually the car would be passed on to me, as something to take on once my kids got a bit older and I had some space and time to do a restoration. Pop had pretty much given up driving the car again in his lifetime given the demands of starting a small business and being a grandfather.

But funny how things can change. About a month ago Pop spent a few days with another of my Mom’s brothers on a business trip. While he was there he saw a Corvette that my uncle Gene was restoring. Pop was impressed with the quality of work and planted the seed that maybe his Lemans should be the next restoration project Gene takes on. On the way back home Pop stopped to talk to me about the idea. Since it would eventually be my car we talked about me funding a good portion of the restoration. So within a few days Pop had someone to do the work and someone to help pay for it. Restoring the Lemans was officially under way! Pop talked to Gene and the plan was to deliver the car in the fall. In the mean time, I’d start researching and come up with a restoration plan. I joined GTOforum to start tracking some other restorations and get some ideas.

Well, I guess the prospect of getting the Lemans rolling again has lit a fire. Pop called the other day and asked if I could take some time off so that we could deliver the car in the next few weeks!

Gulp - I guess I better get going on that restoration plan. I’ve got a ton of questions about putting together a plan that I’ll post (if any one’s still reading after this long-winded intro)…


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## [miko] (Feb 17, 2011)

*Questions, questions, too many questions...*

Here's what I've come up with so far:

- Does anyone have a good restoration plan that they could share? How in depth should it go? Does it call out specific products or just goals (Baer 2 pot brakes vs. just calling out that we want to do a disk brake conversion)?

- Anyone have experience managing a restoration from afar? I'm in NC, Pop's in PA and Uncle Gene who's doing the work is in FL, so I think we'll have a challenge or two on that front. Anything to specifically watch out for?

- With a limited budget, what should we accomplish now with the frame off vs. things that can be left for later after the car is reassembled and running for a few years? Once I figure this out I think that I'll be better able to wrap my head around an actual budget.

- Stock vs. upgrades. I know this one is subjective, but I'd be curious to know folks thoughts. If you've done upgrades, do you regret it? I'm leaning towards upgrading the front brakes and possibly suspension (she's not going to be a trailer queen) but don't think I know quite enough to make an informed decision.

I'm sure they'll be a thousand others as I really dive in to things.


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## FNG69 (Nov 15, 2009)

Welcome to the forum. You are at the right place. The sky is the limit you just have to decide how much you want to enjoy the 64 & spend!!, Meaning if you do a full frame off you might not end up driving it as much as you would like.. LES

* LOVE THOSE 64'S*


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Welcome to the heard, Us Lemans /Tempest guys are growing in leaps and bounds. Post some pics of the car and i am sure you will get plenty of suggestions, i say since it is dads you do it back close to original and maybe upgrade to power brakes w/front disk (the 70-74 GM go on nicely and stop adequately and won't break the budget)and power steering. if it is still in good shape a body on resto can be done (like mine), not all of these cars need to be torn down to the last bolt (costly and time consuming). i have been at mine for 6 months all by myself and should have it back on the road in May. Condition of the Floor/trunk pans and frame will usually dictate what type of resto it will need.

Heres some pics of my Tempest through the course of it...just picked up paint today so in the next month it should have color back on it and start being re-assembled

1966 Tempest pictures by instg8ter - Photobucket

Brian


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## GhostTown (Jan 25, 2011)

Good luck with your adventure, miko! I loved reading your story. I have a story that goes a little like that too, only the car (a Lemans) was my moms, and it attracted my dad. Thankfully they kept the car though, but I think it's because they couldn't afford a more practical one at the time of my childhood. 

Your questions are a little difficult to answer. One mans limited budget is another mans fortune, so it is hard to recommend the right direction to point you towards. If you have a ton of time, then small budgets become big budgets over the years. If you would rather it all be done inside of months, then a limited budget is not going to go very far. Especially with mods.

If I were being budget AND time conscious while the body is separate from the frame, I'd probably focus on correcting anything that is in need of repair, then blasting and painting the frame and all stock components, then immediately put it all back together. These cars have a great platform from the start, so use what you have as a foundation. Anything else you may want later will very likely be a bolt on part, so you won't have to redo anything. This saves you from having to pay for everything (upgraded parts by the $$thousands$$, paint, blasting, new brake lines, bushings, bearings, fittings, filters, etc.) at once. Factory wears items alone seem pretty cheap. Thirty bucks for this... twenty for that.... but if you want to replace all of it, money adds up quick. Trust me. If you invite hot rod stuff to the party to early it is easy to get overwhelmed. Trust me.

That's my two bit's on budget. Sorry it's a bit long but I'm going through this very thing right now with a different project, so it's fresh in my brain.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

[miko] said:


> Here's what I've come up with so far:
> 
> - Does anyone have a good restoration plan that they could share? How in depth should it go? Does it call out specific products or just goals (Baer 2 pot brakes vs. just calling out that we want to do a disk brake conversion)?
> 
> ...


Awesome story!! Getting to do the project with your dad is going to be the best part of it.

First of all, decided what you want the car to be FOR YOU TWO and forget about anyone else's opinion, especially since you're going to keep it forever.

Since you're going to drive it (huzzah! :cheers) if it were me I'd upgrade the brakes and suspension, maybe warm up the motor some --- (or save/protect that original engine and build a "fun" replacement for it instead) --- but appearance-wise I'd restore it to original.

Very cool car!

Bear


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## dimitri (Feb 13, 2009)

I wish my pop had a 64 for me>>>>WHERE THE HELL IS NORTH CACKALACK?????????????


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## [miko] (Feb 17, 2011)

Thanks for the input and welcomes - it's slowly sinking in that this is really happening and how lucky I am to share this with Pop now.

Sounds like Pop and I have got some fun thinking to do. It's raining in PA today, but once it clears Pop will take some pictures of the car as she sits. He's got to get it out to put some new tires so we can roll it on the trailer in a few weeks. Stay tuned...



BearGFR said:


> ...especially since you're going to keep it forever.


Yeah, this one definitely won't be on the auction block.



dimitri said:


> >>>>WHERE THE HELL IS NORTH CACKALACK?????????????


AKA North Carolina!


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## freethinker (Nov 14, 2009)

that car sounds like it deserves to be restored to stock. the only exceptions would be adding 69-72 gm a body front disc brakes. 70-72 gto front and rear antiroll bars and radial tires to make it nore driveable. save the old parts because they can easily be swapped back at a later date if desired.

we need more info to advise on the body. is it rusty?


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

What did your dad do to it back in the day, it would be cool to replicate that, glass packs and the like. It would be helpfull to see pics and know the actual condition before advice is given.
Where is FL is your uncle that is going to restore it?


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## lemanslady64 (Mar 23, 2011)

*Translate for Grandma please!!*



freethinker said:


> that car sounds like it deserves to be restored to stock. the only exceptions would be adding 69-72 gm a body front disc brakes. 70-72 gto front and rear antiroll bars and radial tires to make it nore driveable. save the old parts because they can easily be swapped back at a later date if desired.
> 
> we need more info to advise on the body. is it rusty?


gotcha on the tires and brakes, but why the roll bars? and what is a 69-72 gm? I am guessing standard GM "a" body brakes. Right?

Pix and details will follow soon.


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## freethinker (Nov 14, 2009)

lemanslady64 said:


> gotcha on the tires and brakes, but why the roll bars? and what is a 69-72 gm?


in 64 the lemans/gto handled like a pig. in 1970 general motors got a little more serious about handling and added antiroll bars that made a big improvement and they will bolt right onto your 64.
69-72 gm are the years of general motors A body cars that would have disk brakes that would bolt right on to your 64.


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## lemanslady64 (Mar 23, 2011)

Thanks! A pig, huh??


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Pig is strong words, more like a tank rolling over in the corners. You can put early to mid 70's Camaro 1 1/4 sway bars on these and really flatten the car out in a corner. AC car springs will stiffen it up, or station wagon. These old cars floated down the road with no real feel in the steering wheel due to the suspension and over powered power steering.


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## FNG69 (Nov 15, 2009)

mid 70's Camaro???? I went with one from a TRANS AM!! It just seemed better. But it is a great improvement & easy change.. Good call Jetstand..Les


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## lemanslady64 (Mar 23, 2011)

jetstang said:


> What did your dad do to it back in the day, it would be cool to replicate that, glass packs and the like. It would be helpfull to see pics and know the actual condition before advice is given.
> Where is FL is your uncle that is going to restore it?


Pretty much the standard convertible. Has that great Hurst (SP?) 4-on-the-floor shifter and glass packs (hence the mention of hearing it rumble half way across the college campus)

She will move to Myakka City Florida for her nip and tuck plus a little botox!


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## lemanslady64 (Mar 23, 2011)

jetstang said:


> Pig is strong words, more like a tank rolling over in the corners. You can put early to mid 70's Camaro 1 1/4 sway bars on these and really flatten the car out in a corner. AC car springs will stiffen it up, or station wagon. These old cars floated down the road with no real feel in the steering wheel due to the suspension and over powered power steering.


Mike will think this one drives like a fine Shelby compared to the 68 AMC Rebel Classic he drove in high school. Now that car really was a "pig". Personally I kind of liked the way the '64 handled, but then I never hit a corner much over 40 mph.

Sun is shining, so pix to follow by end of day


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## lemanslady64 (Mar 23, 2011)

You guys will have to decide about the 'ride'. I'm pulling for original, but maybe that's something we can deal with after we get it on the road initially.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

lemanslady64 said:


> You guys will have to decide about the 'ride'. I'm pulling for original, but maybe that's something we can deal with after we get it on the road initially.


That's the cool thing about building your own. There's enough room to do what you like and room for all opinions. Me, I'm going for a more or less stealth approach :cool with a car that's can be presented as "more or less" stock (at least until they hear it run ) but stops, turns, and certainly goes  much better than original. 

Bear


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## [miko] (Feb 17, 2011)

*The family's all here!*

Welcome to the discussion Mom (aka lemanslady64)! 

Mom and Pop had a chance to take some pix today as they pulled the wheels for fresh rubber. Here's the first set as promised. I think that there will be a few more later today or tomorrow.

Mom can chime in with more detail, but from what I remember and the pix show, the paint needs work but overall the body is good. The interior is very good. There are some rust issues with the rear spring mounts. We might have pix of that later.

Exterior...




































And one of the interior...










And I'm kinda leaning with Bear on this one. I'd love to have it look pretty stock with just a few hints to what's we've done. I'm thinking that the brakes and a few suspension upgrades would be great as we get it back on the road.

But as we get the car down to FL and start to really look at what the frame and body need, some of those things on the wish list might have to wait. I'd rather spend the time and money getting things done right and preserved as we get the frame off, knowing that brakes and suspension and engine warming can be bolted on later.


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## freethinker (Nov 14, 2009)

[miko] said:


> Welcome to the discussion Mom (aka lemanslady64)!
> 
> Mom and Pop had a chance to take some pix today as they pulled the wheels for fresh rubber. Here's the first set as promised. I think that there will be a few more later today or tomorrow.
> 
> ...


that car needs fender patches, quarter patches, since its a convert i am guessing it will need a trunk floor and at least some floor patches. are you prepared for that expense? it runs into big money if you need a floor replaced. i would hate to see you ship it that far and get a big surprise once they tore it apart.
maybe you should rip the carpet out now and get us some pictures of the floor and the trunk. it looks like a solid car to restore but it isnt cheap.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

WOW, that is nice!! You could just buff it out and get it drivable and enjoy it for now. Love it, use it, then restore it later. I wouldn't do a frame off, unless I'm missing something serious.. Original cars are called "survivors" and judged accordingly at shows..


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

I think I'm with JetStang; that car (to this untrained eye) looks pretty darned nice as is. If you can keep it in the "survivor" form and match it up to your story, you have something really extraordinary. In the pictures, it just doesn't look like it needs much, I'd proceed with caution before I started ripping anything out.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Welcome Lemans Lady, i am assuming you are "Mom", I agree with Bear and the others, Keep it the car you remember on the outside and make the needed improvements for safety and handling sake, get it on the road again and them work on freshening the old power plant. Like Jet says it looks to me like its a candidate for a frame on resto, appears do be complete and solid, do not take it apart unless you have Time, Money, and patients all in abundance. So many times a simple freshening up can turn into a complete tear down with plans of spotless showroom fresh undercarriage, one thing leads to "since i have gone this far" syndrome and the next think you know you are left with a frame and two garages full of parts (yes they take up so much more space when they are not on the frame). Just remember, all the parts you will need/buy have GTO attached to them and are and are priced accordingly. and while you can take one of theses completely apart in a day/weekend, it can take years to get the time money and knowledge to put them back together (ask Bear).


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## lemanslady64 (Mar 23, 2011)

*Body mount rust through a big worry*



Instg8ter said:


> Welcome Lemans Lady, i am assuming you are "Mom", I agree with Bear and the others, Keep it the car you remember on the outside and make the needed improvements for safety and handling sake, ...........Just remember, all the parts you will need/buy have GTO attached to them ...............t can take years to get the time money and knowledge to put them back together (ask Bear).


Thanks Everybody! For the last couple of days I have not done much other than take and process pix for the '64. It gets a little gut wrenching when you start talking about all the money....... and time. 

I didn't pull the rug yet, but didn't find any squishy spots on the floor. The trunk has a patch from years ago which I show in one of the pix. (convertibe nemesis!)

My big worry is the rust that you don't see. We never drove the car much after we bought it back because we were told by someone we trust that the body mounts were rusted through. I don't remember about the motor mounts. Glenn might know about that. Anyway, that's why there's talk of frame off.........

Mike, I will ask you to post the pictures that you think will be helpful. They are on photobucket and I sent you the link.

Thanks again guys for all your input!


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## [miko] (Feb 17, 2011)

*An update - finally*



lemanslady64 said:


> Mike, I will ask you to post the pictures that you think will be helpful.


Life has been a bit crazy, so these are long overdue. 
Sorry about that. Here's a bit of an update... 

Mom and Pop were down for a visit a number of weeks ago and we had a chance to sit down and talk about how fast things were moving. It was a good chat and the general outcome was that we decided to cool our jets. We all were caught up in the idea of seeing the car running again. Long story short, we won't be taking the car to Florida this month and will most likely take it down in late summer or fall. We also shared the following pics with Uncle Gene so that he could start to give us a ballpark estimate on the hours needed. Now that we've got his opinion and the good advice here, we think we've got a better idea of what we want to do. 

So first a few pic posts then a plan post...


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## [miko] (Feb 17, 2011)

*Full exterior*



















Notice the sag in the rear? We think the spring mounts are rusted out


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## [miko] (Feb 17, 2011)

*Exterior Details*










Driver side front quarter panel with patch









Driver side rear quarter









Newer rear window. Old one leaked causing the problems in the photo above









Trunk in pretty good shape



























Passenger rear









Pitting on the passenger front quarter









Needs paint!


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## [miko] (Feb 17, 2011)

*The trunk - a known trouble spot...*




























Old patch work









Patch in the trunk floor


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## [miko] (Feb 17, 2011)

*Engine Bay and Top*

Just a general shot. We've got details of most of the components if you're interested.










*Rag Top*


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## [miko] (Feb 17, 2011)

*Interior - in really good shape...*





































We pretty sure it hasn't been flipped...


















Hurst 4 on the floor


















Just a bit of wear and tear that we'll just live with for now









And some documentation from the glove box


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## [miko] (Feb 17, 2011)

*Suspension...*














































Rear with lots of rust - but undercoating seems to have protected some of the body...









Sway bar and springs









But not all...


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## [miko] (Feb 17, 2011)

*And a few last ones...*










Body mounts













































Underside of engine - pretty clean...











That's it for now - sorry for the deluge of pics. I'll post our list of stuff we've picked to tackle in a bit. :seeya: Stay tuned...


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## freethinker (Nov 14, 2009)

nice solid car for restoration. i would guess the car is worth 7-9 k right now and you will spend 20-30 k to get it back to nice condition. with the way the trunk looks i will bet you need floor work too. if the spring perches are rusted out you might need a new frame. another 1-2k. some things you cant know until you disassemble it.
before you start you need to talk to the body shop to get estimates and decide on how well you want the metal work repaired. do you want the floor and trunk patched or do you want all new? everything else is straight forward. mechanicals should be easy. do you want a new interior. the old one looks not too bad. thats a 3 k decision. overall the car is nice enough it deserves a nice restoration


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## [miko] (Feb 17, 2011)

*The Restoration Plan*



freethinker said:


> it deserves a nice restoration


That's what we think, Free!

Here's our rough pass at what we'd like to accomplish with this phase of the restoration if we're taking the body off the frame. Gulp...

*Transmission*
- Nothing except fluids/maintenance (Any advantage to going synthetic?)

*Engine*
- New electrical harnesses (we're thinking the full harness since we're in there)
- New coil
- New points
- New battery
- New hood insulation
- New fluids (Again, any advantage to synthetic?)
- Clean and repair as needed

*Fuel*
- New tank
- New fuel line

*Brakes*
- Front disk brake conversion (most likely new aftermarket)
- New pads rear

*Tires*
- Since we're converting to discs, new wheels/tires to clear 'em

*Suspension*
- New shocks all 4 corners
- New springs all 4 corners
- New control arm bushings & bumps
- New ball joints
- New rear lower control arms
- New sway bar front/rear
- Clean and repair as needed


*Body*
- New Driver/Passenger rear quarter panels
- New D/P outer rear wheel housing
- New D/P interior rear wheel housing patch
- New trunk floor
- New frame/body mount bushings & hardware
- Repair D/P front quarter panel
- Repair any other minor issues
- New paint

*Frame*
- Clean and repaint (maybe not as nice as Thor's!)
- Repair/replace spring mounts

*Convertible Top*
- New pump
- new lift cylinders

*Interior*
- Add three rear lapbelts
- Nothing else at this time. It's very livable as is.


Wow, that's a big list. Pop did some flipping through the catalogs and came up with around $5000 for parts for most of the list above. I'm guessing that it'll be almost double that when we add a few additional unforeseen things and any needed fluids/hardware. Of course we'll have to take it one step at a time, but I think this gives us a good starting point so that we realize what we're getting in to.

Anything obvious that we're missing?


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## danthepontiacman (Jul 5, 2008)

nice to see a lemans thats not cloned, yeah i love the tempest and lemans, better fuel strecher on theme trips and a stock v8 tempest or lemans with highways gears will outrun a gto top end, my mom and dad got passed by a ss396 chevelle back in the day, he went on by but my 80+ my dad saw he was caching up and he guned our tempest and he did catch up and pass the 396. in short i love seeing lemans and tempest cuz there great for what they are and never haff to be a gto to be great.


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## [miko] (Feb 17, 2011)

*A little update...*

After such a gung-ho start, life got in the way of our plans as Mom and Pop's business went through some big transitions, my mother-in-law battled some serious health issues and I got distracted with another vehicle needing some TLC...










But now that things have settled down (just a bit ) our 'restoration' effort is under way again. Pop found a family shop near them in PA who are helping get the car to be a solid driver, saving the cost and time of getting it to Florida as was originally planned. The car is there now and they'll take the body off the frame and deal with any issues that can only be addressed with the body off, saving any body-on friendly fixes for later. 

I'll try and convince them to get some pics of the work in progress. Stay tuned.


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## lemanslady64 (Mar 23, 2011)

*And now, three years later........*

Wow, that was a very long story that ended pretty much.........nowhere!
But the news is good. We did not do a ground up resto, but did the work that was required to make her look pretty and relatively safe to drive.

Big upside surprise, we found the build sheet under the back seat.
My biggest downside, the engine was repainted in a color that I am certain was not the original. However, when we talked to Ben Harrison at Carlisle in 2014 he said he remembers that those engines were painted with whatever color was on the line at the time, so there is no absolutely correct engine color for a '64 Lemans.
















Now we have other questions. More on that in my new thread to follow.


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

Good news on NOT doing the body off resto. It doesn't look like you needed it. 

P.S. I dig the Landcruiser! I've owned them for years (but not currently). My son just bought this:


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