# Ethanol fuel



## Wilma (May 3, 2015)

I have a '68 GTO convertible with a 400 running a quadrajet. The engine was rebuilt before I got the car in 1996 and the only information that I was given about the build is that "It was set up to run on unleaded gas." That, of course, is before we had ethanol. I now live in a place where it is difficult to find non-ethanol 93 octane; pretty much my only choice for non-ethanol gas is 87 octane. The car runs on it but acts like the Bat-Chute is deployed. I'm hesitant to switch to 93 octane with ethanol in it because of the damage it can do.

So I'm curious to know how others have handled this. All replies are welcome.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

Replace all your fuel hoses with new ethanol resistant rubber. Replace the carb accelerator pump with one with a ethanol resistant seal. 


Quadrajet HP Accelerator Pump Assembly – Cliffs High Performance Quadrajets



Use a fuel stabilizer when not driving the car for a few weeks or more to keep moisture from accumulating in the tank.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Confused about you getting a '68 in 1966. Have heard some shady mechanics say 'set up for unleaded gas'. As a retired journeyman auto tech, the only concession to unleaded gas in later cars is hardened valve seats in the cylinder heads. What 052 said on the E-10. I've been running it for years in my GTO's because nothing else is available. And ours is 91 octane and now $7 per gallon here in CA. And it boils at about 140 degrees, too. Good stuff.


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## Wilma (May 3, 2015)

geeteeohguy said:


> Confused about you getting a '68 in 1966. Have heard some shady mechanics say 'set up for unleaded gas'. As a retired journeyman auto tech, the only concession to unleaded gas in later cars is hardened valve seats in the cylinder heads. What 052 said on the E-10. I've been running it for years in my GTO's because nothing else is available. And ours is 91 octane and now $7 per gallon here in CA. And it boils at about 140 degrees, too. Good stuff.


Sorry. Old guy brain fart. I meant 1996....I corrected it in my post above. But thanks for your reply. I should add that the car ran great on 93 octane non-ethanol...when I could get it.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

O52 said:


> Replace all your fuel hoses with new ethanol resistant rubber. Replace the carb accelerator pump with one with a ethanol resistant seal.
> 
> 
> Quadrajet HP Accelerator Pump Assembly – Cliffs High Performance Quadrajets
> ...


Any recommendations on brand or vendor for ethanol resistant rubber hoses? I can't seem to find any that clearly state they are safe with ethanol gasoline.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

Ames will have it as well as any auto parts store. 



Search Parts


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

O52 said:


> Ames will have it as well as any auto parts store.
> 
> 
> 
> Search Parts


Thanks, but how do we know it is ethanol resistant? My problem is that I find “modern” replacement fuel line but then the fine print actually says it’s not ethanol resistant.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

michaelfind said:


> Any recommendations on brand or vendor for ethanol resistant rubber hoses? I can't seem to find any that clearly state they are safe with ethanol gasoline.


As a rule, neoprene or any synthetic stuff will resist alcohol. If your car is going to sit for extended periods, then I would specifically look for synthetic hose.

Yes, as has been mentioned, ethanol/ alcohol attacks rubber, but only when left to sit.

It also attacks aluminum, which is what our carbs are made of, yet there's no need to panic, so long as it's not left to sit.

Anyone with a car that sits for extended periods, should be using ethanol specific fuel stabilizer for storage, and then running their car once every two weeks, so that moisture and evaporation do not have a chance to hurt things.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

michaelfind said:


> Thanks, but how do we know it is ethanol resistant? My problem is that I find “modern” replacement fuel line but then the fine print actually says it’s not ethanol resistant.


If you're running the car, you're fine. Just use this.








Lucas Safeguard™ Ethanol Fuel Conditioner with Stabilizers was developed to specifically address issues associated with using ethanol based fuels. This applies to E-10, E-15, E-85, pure ethanol and any mixtures in between including gasoline. Our Product is completely soluble in all ethanol fuels and will not harm filters. Lucas Safeguard™ Ethanol Fuel Conditioner with Stabilizers contains effective additives to prevent rust and corrosion associated with the use of ethanol fuels.
*Key Benefits*


Cleans injectors, valve seats, combustion chambers and other critical fuel components
Stabilizes fuel and prevents varnish & gum formation in ethanol and gasoline
Combats deposits and protects your engine oil lubricants from the harmful effects of alcohol combustion


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

armyadarkness said:


> If you're running the car, you're fine. Just use this.
> View attachment 154652
> 
> Lucas Safeguard™ Ethanol Fuel Conditioner with Stabilizers was developed to specifically address issues associated with using ethanol based fuels. This applies to E-10, E-15, E-85, pure ethanol and any mixtures in between including gasoline. Our Product is completely soluble in all ethanol fuels and will not harm filters. Lucas Safeguard™ Ethanol Fuel Conditioner with Stabilizers contains effective additives to prevent rust and corrosion associated with the use of ethanol fuels.
> ...


Someone on the forum was recommending Red Line Complete Fuel system cleaner. Was that you Army? If so, why did you switch products? Maybe it was someone else?


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

armyadarkness said:


> If you're running the car, you're fine. Just use this.
> View attachment 154652
> 
> Lucas Safeguard™ Ethanol Fuel Conditioner with Stabilizers was developed to specifically address issues associated with using ethanol based fuels. This applies to E-10, E-15, E-85, pure ethanol and any mixtures in between including gasoline. Our Product is completely soluble in all ethanol fuels and will not harm filters. Lucas Safeguard™ Ethanol Fuel Conditioner with Stabilizers contains effective additives to prevent rust and corrosion associated with the use of ethanol fuels.
> ...


I was wrong. It was LeMans Guy that was recommending it. Some relevant information here too...









Non-Ethanol gas


My favorite gas station stopped selling 93 octane non ethanol gas for my 67 GTO. Hard to find any stations that carry it. What options are their for fuel. Thanks




www.gtoforum.com


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

michaelfind said:


> Someone on the forum was recommending Red Line Complete Fuel system cleaner. Was that you Army? If so, why did you switch products? Maybe it was someone else?


No, that was @Lemans guy 

I have no experience with Redline products, but I do have 100% faith in the advice of lemans guy.. who is the one who helped my set my detailed timing curve and wagner PCV valve.

For my own personal experience with ethanol:

Aside from 25 years of testing fuel for the government, my family has owned a campground and marina for just as long. So we had dozens and dozens of hedge trimmers, chainsaws, leaf blowers, augers, chippers, edgers, pressure washers, mowers, jet skis, tractors, and boats.. all being used/ abused seasonally. Lucas was what I always used and held in high regard... along with their fuel system cleaners, and specifically their gun oil, which Im a big fan of.

That being said, from what I understand, Redline is a much more comprehensive fuel treatment, so if I were interested in a complete service to the plugs, valves, rings, etc... it's what I would use.

If I were simply concerned about degrading ethanol, the cheaper Lucas is what I would use.

I have augers and generators that sit for many years with ethanol in them, using the Lucas.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I've been using Startron Enzyme and Stabil 360 or Storage, so far no issues that I know of. I store mine from the end of October until it's decent out in Northern IL which can be middle or end of April, starts in the spring with one pump of the throttle. I do put a bottle in then fill it up right before storage and then a dose every fill up, I also have a heated garage.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

I have a heated garage too! Today it will get up to 103! 🤣


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> I also have a heated garage.


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

michaelfind said:


> I have a heated garage too! Today it will get up to 103! 🤣


Is it that dry heat. Or that southern heat where every drop of perspiration is multiplied by x5 ? It fun walking out side hearing your boots squish and we haven't seen rain in two weeks.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> View attachment 154653


Saved my Menards rebates for a year so it was free and installed myself, think it was 350.00 not a big deal.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

I've been running E10 in my car since I got it 10 years ago with no issue. You cannot get any grade of gas here that doesn't have ethanol in it (even 87 octane). As others have said, make sure to have the correct fuel lines and run stabilizer. Mine has an Edelbrock carb that doesn't seem to care that there's ethanol in the fuel.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

O52 said:


> Ames will have it as well as any auto parts store.
> 
> 
> 
> Search Parts


IF anyone else has concerns about old fuel lines, this is what I tracked down as reportedly being ethanol resistant. I'm sure there are other options. I bought some to start replacing lines, starting at tank and working forward. Not exactly stock appearance but close enough for my standards.





Barricade® Carburetion Hose | Gates Corporation


Before you start your engines, equip them with Gates fuel hoses. We’ve engineered our fuel line hoses at the cutting-edge of fuel-efficient, environmentally-safe design, so your engine will perform with superior power.




www.gates.com


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

Wilma said:


> I have a '68 GTO convertible with a 400 running a quadrajet. The engine was rebuilt before I got the car in 1996 and the only information that I was given about the build is that "It was set up to run on unleaded gas." That, of course, is before we had ethanol. I now live in a place where it is difficult to find non-ethanol 93 octane; pretty much my only choice for non-ethanol gas is 87 octane. The car runs on it but acts like the Bat-Chute is deployed. I'm hesitant to switch to 93 octane with ethanol in it because of the damage it can do.
> 
> So I'm curious to know how others have handled this. All replies are welcome.


Just had my 400 rebuilt and the machinist, hos old & cranky, told me due to the Ethanol you should run fuel injection thats what its made for not carbs, I cant afford it I have the 3 dueces setup which I hear is a nightmare to keep tuned. He did say if you can look for a marine gas station they dont have to use ethanol gas, theres one here in Nor Cal


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

michaelfind said:


> I have a heated garage too! Today it will get up to 103! 🤣


Mine's heated, and cooled. Out here in the boonies west of Fort Worth, here's what our weather station is showing right now:










A couple hours ago it was showing 108. 

Bear


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

BearGFR said:


> Mine's heated, and cooled. Out here in the boonies west of Fort Worth, here's what our weather station is showing right now:
> 
> View attachment 154706
> 
> ...


wow just a measly 98 here in Nor Cal go 30 miles west to SF and its 75-80


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

BearGFR said:


> Mine's heated, and cooled. Out here in the boonies west of Fort Worth, here's what our weather station is showing right now:
> 
> View attachment 154706
> 
> ...


I'm 100 miles south of you Bear and I'm feeling it all this week. Mine is cooled too, if I open the side door and the roll up door, and the wind is blowing just right. But then the donkeys and cows start getting curious and trying to wander inside. It's rough on the frontier...


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

michaelfind said:


> I'm 100 miles south of you Bear and I'm feeling it all this week. Mine is cooled too, if I open the side door and the roll up door, and the wind is blowing just right. But then the donkeys and cows start getting curious and trying to wander inside. It's rough on the frontier...


Oh yeah.... and right now our place needs mowing. My bride is hosting a family reunion here over the 4th weekend and for some reason she wants it to look nice. Go figure. Normally with my tractor and shredder I can get it all done in about 6 hours give or take, but here lately about an hour or so in the seat has been all I can take. Thank goodness we have a pool out here now that I can just go fall into after I've hit my limit.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

BearGFR said:


> Oh yeah.... and right now our place needs mowing. My bride is hosting a family reunion here over the 4th weekend and for some reason she wants it to look nice. Go figure. Normally with my tractor and shredder I can get it all done in about 6 hours give or take, but here lately about an hour or so in the seat has been all I can take. Thank goodness we have a pool out here now that I can just go fall into after I've hit my limit.


Jersey has a humid heat. And since all of my home and property money has been COMPLETELY BLOWN on car parts, I use a Tractor Supply stock tank with a kiddie pool filter and an electric hot water heater element, to cool down after a mow.

Works awesome, but similar to placing your life in Gods hands, you're now placing your balls in GFCI's hands.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Jersey has been a VERY DRY 70's. It's actually creepy. Normally it would be 95 and humid here for the last several weeks.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

BearGFR said:


> Oh yeah.... and right now our place needs mowing. My bride is hosting a family reunion here over the 4th weekend and for some reason she wants it to look nice. Go figure. Normally with my tractor and shredder I can get it all done in about 6 hours give or take, but here lately about an hour or so in the seat has been all I can take. Thank goodness we have a pool out here now that I can just go fall into after I've hit my limit.


You must have and open cab tractor like me. I have the shade canopy but it's too stinking hot in the afternoons to be out there very long. I see neighbors with nice air conditioned cabs with tinted windows and I try not to covet.

My wife makes the same requests and has finally given up on our broken down horse ranch looking like the nice one across the road. I remind her often that they have two full time ranch hands. I'm on my own and I do what I can when I'm not at work (or working on the GTO).


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Bro, Im a big fan of farming and land care. I can tow my Kubota out there behind my GTO. All you need is to supply Italian Hot Dogs, 100 proof rye, and some inflatable women.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

armyadarkness said:


> Bro, Im a big fan of farming and land care. I can tow my Kubota out there behind my GTO. All you need is to supply Italian Hot Dogs, 100 proof rye, and some inflatable women.


That would be a blast to see!


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

So, sort of getting back to what the original topic was, I have a question about AFR and ethanol gas. If I'm running E10 and adding Octane supreme to get the Octane where it needs to be, what should be my goal for WOT AFR. It should be a bit more rich than for pure gasoline, right?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I suspect you'll get many opinions on it. I have always run E10, no octane additives, and an AFR gauge, which I monitor religiously.

I keep my AFR's at mid to high 13's.

Even if there was data to support richening E10, there are so many variables between climate, drivers, and engines, that I'd be shocked to learn someone could tell a difference. I jet my carb at least 10 times a year, and I never feel any difference... I simply do it for engine health and mileage... trying to zero in on perfection. But whether Im at 12 or 14.5, and when changing between, I simply dont feel it.

The Edelbrock carb has idle mixtures, needle springs, needles, a pump shot, an air valve, primaries, and secondaries... all of which can be adjusted to control the specific areas of acceleration. And since I tinker with it constantly, Ive really gotten to A/B my changes.

I will let someone with "data" answer your question, but I would like to say this; even if there were an ideal mixture for my car, I highly doubt that it would be the same for yours. 

I really never hear of or see anyone else on the forum, jetting thier car, so I often feel like a guinea pig... Im anxious to hear about your experiences if you start to tinker.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

armyadarkness said:


> I suspect you'll get many opinions on it. I have always run E10, no octane additives, and an AFR gauge, which I monitor religiously.
> 
> I keep my AFR's at mid to high 13's.
> 
> ...


Thanks, that is helpful to know. I have been gradually leaning mine out, then started reading more on ethanol and needing to stay a little rich to compensate for the E10. I was still way too rich before but don't want to overcorrect, especially now that I'm at the point of having to order jets to get it more lean.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Well I can tell you that I have always ran on the lean side since the early 90s. For the last year and a half I had the car in the mid-14s. 

After I put the new cam in at Thanksgiving I didn't notice a huge improvement in performance. So I started to richen it out, and there was still no improvement. It wasn't until I opened up the exhaust that the car took on an entirely new personality. At that point I richen it up merely as a precautionary measure but there was no improvement in performance by going into the 13s with my afrs


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> Well I can tell you that I have always ran on the lean side since the early 90s. For the last year and a half I had the car in the mid-14s.
> 
> After I put the new cam in at Thanksgiving I didn't notice a huge improvement in performance. So I started to richen it out, and there was still no improvement. It wasn't until I opened up the exhaust that the car took on an entirely new personality. At that point I richen it up merely as a precautionary measure but there was no improvement in performance by going into the 13s with my afrs


"A wideband sensor lambda sensor based A/F meter calculates the A/F mixture by “reading” the unburned combustible content of the exhaust gases (note: a lot of people call the lambda sensor an oxygen sensor but Bosch calls it a lambda sensor). The wideband lambda sensor measures the amount of oxygen that must be added to or subtracted from the exhaust gas to form a stoichiometric gas mix in its reference chamber, the A/F meter then calculates the A/F mixture of the exhaust gas from that value.

The readings you get from a wideband lambda sensor based A/F meter can be quite accurate, but false readings can be created by an exhaust leak, engine misfire, *or an engine with a high performance camshaft at lower engine speeds.* These false readings are caused by the Lambda sensor misreading the unused oxygen and/or unburned combustibles that are in the exhaust gas mixture. A more realistic light-load, cruise A/F mixture for a stock carbureted engine running on reformulated unleaded gasoline is in the 14.1:1 range."

"If the engine you are tuning has an air-gap style intake manifold and/*or high performance camshaft you may need to tune the idle and cruise mixtures richer than a stock engine with the same gasoline. *The added performance from an air-gap intake manifold and the increased valve overlap from a high performance camshaft can often come at the price of lower fuel vaporization at lower rpm operating conditions.

The richer A/F mixture can help cover up the driveability problems when the fuel is not completely vaporized. The heat the intake manifold gets from the exhaust gas crossover in a conventional intake manifold helps the engine vaporize the fuel as it travels from the carburetor into the cylinders combustion chamber."

"Tuning with a 5-Gas Analyzer and Wideband Lambda Meter:

The use of a portable 5-gas exhaust gas analyzer and/or a wideband sensor based A/F meter can allow a tuner to observe the A/F mixture the engine is getting from its fuel system at any engine operating condition.

A starting point for A/F mixtures for most mild performance engines is:
• Idle: 1.0% to 3.0 % CO or a 14.1-13.4:1;
• Cruise rpm: 1.0% CO or a 14.1:1 with a mild performance engine; or 1.0% – 3.0% CO or a 14.1 – 13.4:1 with high performance cam;
• Power mixture and acceleration: 6.0% CO or a 12.5:1 for a “normal” engine or high performance engine with improved combustion chamber design such as a Pro Stock or a NASCAR engine; in some cases you may be able to use a slightly leaner power mixture of 4% CO or a 13.0:1."


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## Jetzster (Jan 18, 2020)

Pure Gas is a site for Ethanol-free places 
But things can change quick


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> "A wideband sensor lambda sensor based A/F meter calculates the A/F mixture by “reading” the unburned combustible content of the exhaust gases (note: a lot of people call the lambda sensor an oxygen sensor but Bosch calls it a lambda sensor). The wideband lambda sensor measures the amount of oxygen that must be added to or subtracted from the exhaust gas to form a stoichiometric gas mix in its reference chamber, the A/F meter then calculates the A/F mixture of the exhaust gas from that value.
> 
> The readings you get from a wideband lambda sensor based A/F meter can be quite accurate, but false readings can be created by an exhaust leak, engine misfire, *or an engine with a high performance camshaft at lower engine speeds.* These false readings are caused by the Lambda sensor misreading the unused oxygen and/or unburned combustibles that are in the exhaust gas mixture. A more realistic light-load, cruise A/F mixture for a stock carbureted engine running on reformulated unleaded gasoline is in the 14.1:1 range."
> 
> ...


No doubt. My dougs headers have notorious gasket leaks at the heads and I'm sure that's causing false readings on top of the cam. One thing is for sure, raising the rev limiter and opening the exhaust was a game changer for me. Our conversations about fine-tuning a lot of these issues made a huge improvement in my situation. And even though I can't say I noticed a massive improvement by richening my mixture, I do believe that it did make better driveability and is certainly more healthy for the engine


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> No doubt. My dougs headers have notorious gasket leaks at the heads and I'm sure that's causing false readings on top of the cam. One thing is for sure, raising the rev limiter and opening the exhaust was a game changer for me. Our conversations about fine-tuning a lot of these issues made a huge improvement in my situation. And even though I can't say I noticed a massive improvement by richening my mixture, I do believe that it did make better driveability and is certainly more healthy for the engine


Ethanol in the gas means it needs a little richer mixture. If you read any "old school" magazine article or book where headers are added, the recommendation is to usually move up about 2 more steps in jetting. Most likely because the additional flow the headers provide will also suck out some of the intake charge during the overlap period of the cam. A richer mixture can also help to cool the intake charge and thus the cylinder. HOWEVER, make it too rich, then you of course would be washing down the cylinders of oil and wear would be somewhat accelerated - but how long that would take to show up when we drive our cars on such a limited number of miles each year, so maybe in 15 years you might see the results of accelerated wear? LOL

The 409 I had ran pig rich because I knew nothing like I do today. Standard plugs would foul, so in went the JC Whitney multi-ground strap "aircraft" plugs, Mallory dual point distributor, 0,000 Volt coil of the day, and an MSD6 box. Never fouled another plug even though it still ran the plugs dark. BIG solid cam, 11.0 compression, regular gas and never an issue with detonation and I figure now it was the BIG cam with all its overlap and the pig rich carbs that allowed me to run such high compression on regular gas of the day (1981-82). That rich mixture also allowed the engine to pull like a freight train as the RPM's climbed into the 6,500 RPM zone. A smaller single 4 Bbl that ran leaner probably would not have given the engine the performance it had - even with the BIG cam.

So like the cam, the carb can also be a trade-off in size (CFM) and how rich it is set-up. EFI or even a TBI set-up changes the whole game, but then it really isn't "old school" anymore - which I am not against, but just still cling to some of the old stuff because of nostalgia and it is what I grew up with.


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## Jetzster (Jan 18, 2020)

Got some of this Lucas stabilizer recently as its difficult to get ethanol-free gas,hopefully it will negate any long term damage from Ethanol on the fuel systems, apparently mostly E10 is the norm now everywhere


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Ive been using that since ethanol came out. I have things sit for 3 years with it, no issues.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Everybody is spot on here. I run E10 without any issues at all. I could run pure gas, but I drive the car a lot and got tired of hunting the pure stations even with the app.

Any modern fuel lines, ones that say “for fuel injection” for example will handle E10.

There are some keys and that is to tune the carb for E10 and don’t then run a tank of pure, or alternate tanks. E10 has a stoichiometric of 14.2…..pure has a stoich of 14.7. That is the AFR where all molecules of gasoline are completely combusted. You can achieve that efficiency with either one.

Pure has a bit more power per gallon, but E10 has a higher octane per gallon (resistance to knocking).

I use 2 products with E10 one is Redline Complete fuel system cleaner. 2 ounces in one fill-up.

Innthe next fill-up I use Stabil Marine 360 with vapor technology. The Stabil Marine 360 is there top product for Marine environments and it keeps E10 from phase separation. Keeps a vapor in thetank and throughout the system that prevents corrosion.

Redline is full of Poly Ether Amine (PEA) the carriers for the PEA are an octane booster and an upper cylinder lubricant. Both good things. PEA was invented by Chevron Chemists, it’s trade name is Techron. It will keep all your fuel system lines clean it will clean carbon deposits on valves and gum in intakes. It is the only chemical that can withstand the heat of combustion.

So use a your chose stuff, but E10 works great when all these things are done. Also the Wagner valve and catch can are A+ for a clean system.

Also drive the car and understand that all modern gas, pure or not was not made to sit, and gas comes in winter and summer blends everywhere. Keep it fresh, tune the carb for which one you use and stay with it. Use modern rubber, good additives to overcome it’s shortcomings and make sure your timing is perfect!

93 octane easily available is a good thing!


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

PS I run these AFR’s

Idle 13.8
Accelerator pump shot 12.2
Power valve activated 12.2
Light throttle cruise 13.4
Secondaries activated 12.2

get close to these and you will have a smooth powerful and efficient runner. Each engine is different, but close to this is best. You want to be just the rich side of stoich because our intakes are “Wet intakes” and some fuel molecules accumulate on the inside of the intake runners, closing the crossover even enhances that factor because it makes it cooler.


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