# 67 GTO PCV System Health and Reconfiguration



## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

My 67 GTO has the original 400, which was rebuilt and using the original valve covers, with a breather on each, and the PCV valve in the valley pan.

Having had 60 cars, I never once paid any attention to the PCV system. I never knew what it was for, never really cared, and I was like most of the "uninformed" on the internet. 

But after three months of tuning woes I finally got the car running well, only to take it for a mild cruise and then have oil everywhere. There was a lot of oil around the distributor area, but the PCV grommet, distributor gasket, and PCV valve were new. I also noticed that the oil dipstick had popped, and it was the second time that I saw it dislodged. After that, the foam inserts shot out of my breathers! Thank God it all happened.

Had I just had oil leaks, then I wouldve continued to simply assume that it was because all old cars leaked oil, but the popped dipstick and breathers were signs that something was serious.

A quick search indicated that all of my symptoms were due to excessive pressure in the crankcase, which of course made sense. I always knew that the reason for not overfilling oil was because of this, but I just assumed that the rest was magic.

When I converted to roller rockers, I needed taller valve covers, and since I just had a terrific experience with finned aluminum Edelbrock covers on a SBC, I got them for the GTO, too. They didn't come with any breathers or provisions for them, so I had to machine holes in them and then I used the same push in, foam breathers, which I used on the SBC. Unfortunately, those breathers have a grommet which works like a reed valve. 

They only allow air in, and not out... and... they barely allow air in at all, since they just use a 7/8 wide slit on each grommet. They worked on my SBC (or so I thought), but this was a fresh, high compression engine, and now I had issues.

I remembered Lemans Guy recommending a crazy, high-tech PCV valve, the company was ME Wagner, and I gave them a call. I got the owner/ designer on the phone and he actually stayed on the phone with me while I was under the hood, tuning and reading vacuum. On his recommendation, I removed the breathers. 

I temporarily made some high-flow breathers, while I await a more permanent solution. Then I simple greened the engine bay, several times, took it for some heavy rides and all is well.

I'm now researching the pro's and cons of connecting my breathers to the air cleaner base. So I'd love to hear any thoughts on that.

I always thought that breathers just inhaled, and the reed valve design of mine seemed to confirm that. However, since their inlet was so inadequate, the PCV valve was never able to evacuate pressure, and then under hard loads, it built even further. 

As it sits, I'm running the ME Wagner valve, and I'm almost back to forgetting that the PCV system is even there. But seeing the results of a bad design was a real eye opener for me. The ME Wagner is removing pressure much more frequently than an oem valve, so when I do hammer it, it's not already at the breaking point, and now all of those contaminants will be out of my engine. 

Looking back over 35 years, I wonder how many of my persistent oil leaks that I couldve solved by maintaining my PCV system.


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## integrity6987 (May 10, 2017)

I got an ME Wagner kit for Christmas - i will be installing it soon. your results are encouraging!


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## AZTempest (Jun 11, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> I'm now researching the pro's and cons of connecting my breathers to the air cleaner base. So I'd love to hear any thoughts on that.


My 67 Tempest is setup similar to yours and seems to work ok. My 65 Barracuda has the breather connected to the air cleaner base. I was wondering if I should connect the Tempest similar to the Barracuda. Checking the Pontiac manual, it seems to be more of a evolution of the emissions but, if It will work any more efficient I'd give it a go.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

integrity6987 said:


> I got an ME Wagner kit for Christmas - i will be installing it soon. your results are encouraging!


I wanted to ball-park it, so I barely even touched on the benefits. But if all goes well, oil leaks will subside, plugs will stay cleaner AFR's will stabilize, and oil will stay a lot cleaner, which is what I'm most excited about. The valve is a bit intimidating to view, but once it's set up, it's actually very simple and effortless.

I bought a $20 oil catch can, just in case, but the engineers at ME Wagner said that the Pontiac valley pan PCV valve, had one of the best baffle setups in the industry, so it's not likely that I'll need it.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

AZTempest said:


> My 67 Tempest is setup similar to yours and seems to work ok. My 65 Barracuda has the breather connected to the air cleaner base. I was wondering if I should connect the Tempest similar to the Barracuda. Checking the Pontiac manual, it seems to be more of a evolution of the emissions but, if It will work any more efficient I'd give it a go.


I'm hoping that someone with more trial experience chimes in, but my only concern with routing to the air cleaner is; that if you did have a lot of oil blow-by, it would go right into your carb, which could really dirty up the intake tract and plugs.

However, in my case, I'm not going to be able to buy valve cover breathers, which fit my car, so unless I make my own breathers, routing to the air cleaner base would be best.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Great job Army! Yes you could use the air cleaner as a route for your breathers. Your catch can will prevent any oil from going in on the vacumn side to the intake. That is where most of it would go. Once the pressure is relieved very little will come out the breathers.

You found the problem of not enough fresh air going in with the small slit in your valve cover grommets. Your crankcase is like a lung, it needs a way to inhale the breather and a way to exhale, the PCV system. 

On the other thread I posted a photo of my K&N Valve Cover breather filter. This is just like an air filter, washable also. It is 2 1/2 inches across and sticks in a valve cover grommet.

This gives lot’s of clean filtered fresh air,...you don’t want dust and dirt in there. There are other breathers on the market but many are just bling billet looking things with a Brillo pad mesh inside, Ok, not great sometimes not much airway or surface and not a great filter.

The air cleaner breather setup is ok it jst adds more hoses going around but not needed. I like the little filter I can glance at it and see if any oil came out and then know my crankcase pressure is too high and tweak the Wagner valve.

If you don’t think you need a Good PCV system next time you pull off your carb look down in your intake.Any black goo hard to clean off? Smeared all over your intake fouling your valves and plugs? Yes that is from the crankcase and PCV system.

Best setup is good crankcase breathers, an ME Wagner PCV dialed in, a catch can and you paying attention to any leaks or drips.

Your engine will run better, cleaner, last longer and your gaskets, intake, carb, valves, spark plugs, and garage floor and engine compartment will all start to love you once again.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Lemans guy said:


> Great job Army! Yes you could use the air cleaner as a route for your breathers. Your catch can will prevent any oil from going in on the vacumn side to the intake. That is where most of it would go. Once the pressure is relieved very little will come out the breathers.
> 
> You found the problem of not enough fresh air going in with the small slit in your valve cover grommets. Your crankcase is like a lung, it needs a way to inhale the breather and a way to exhale, the PCV system.
> 
> ...


Thanks again. I'm very excited about continuing to tweak the system. I did buy K&N breathers, but since my breathers are on the side of the VC, facing the carb, there's not enough room to install them. This is why I have to make my own or route to the air cleaner base.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Oh I see, yes the air cleaner will work good. The air is filtered and you have two as well, so good fresh air coming in. You can open the top of air cleaner and look occasionally to see if any crud comes thru, but depending how you place it in the air filter housing the air filter will keep it from going back in the carb. 

Most of the crud is sucked thru the ME Wagner and drops in your catch can.......


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

See where my breather is!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Much thinking to do. I can always find a way to plumb the breathers to a location with more space.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Valve covers are cool, but you could change those as well


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Lemans guy said:


> Valve covers are cool, but you could change those as well


Going back, I wouldve changed them. At this point, they were stupid expensive and I had to machine them, so my investment is great. I might as well make the best of them now.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Understand completely, you might could fabricate a small bracket that puts a hose in the valve cover and then has something like the small K&N on top or even in front of the valve covers. Even turned sideways or whatever...


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Now looking at it.........agree .....right to the bottom of the air cleaner on both sides would be best...and should work great


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Lemans guy said:


> Now looking at it.........agree .....right to the bottom of the air cleaner on both sides would be best...and should work great


As soon as we get a day of no rain, I'll be trying a few different ideas. In the mean time, it's working with my home-made setup.


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

My 77 GP the breather went to the air cleaner then had a cleanable element. Just to tell you how bad the PVC system was the element was always oily so I still had pressure that the PVC didn't clear out and the system ran backwards at times. Meaning the intended breather was an exhaust half the time.Was that by design? Cause it made a mess out of the carb. Im sure I cleaned the thing a few times in the three years I owned it.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

Lemans guy said:


> Great job Army! Yes you could use the air cleaner as a route for your breathers. Your catch can will prevent any oil from going in on the vacumn side to the intake. That is where most of it would go. Once the pressure is relieved very little will come out the breathers.
> 
> You found the problem of not enough fresh air going in with the small slit in your valve cover grommets. Your crankcase is like a lung, it needs a way to inhale the breather and a way to exhale, the PCV system.
> 
> ...





armyadarkness said:


> Much thinking to do. I can always find a way to plumb the breathers to a location with more space.


Well, all you guys going on about the ME Wagner finally got to me. I called them yesterday and talked to Gene. He was very nice and helpful. He really knows this topic well. I have not ordered yet but plan to. Gene told me about the various ways to install this PCV. I have the valley pan with the gromet in the back and the P65 manifold I'm running is about the same dimensions as a stock tripower. Are either of you using the Pontiac Valley Pan adapter that ME Wagner offers? If possible, I'd prefer to not buy the adapter.

On a side note, Army, which fule pressure regulator do you have in picture you posted?

Thanks


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

67ventwindow said:


> I still had pressure that the PVC didn't clear out and the system ran backwards at times. Meaning the intended breather was an exhaust half the time.


This part was a real PAIN! I thought that the breathers only inhaled, and I had a terrible time getting definitive answers on their functionality. 

One day I noticed that my dipstick had popped, but I thought it was a coincidence. Then it happened again, this time, accompanied by oil everywhere. So, I opened the slots on the breathers to 1/8" and then did a burn out... It shot the breather foam out of the grommets.

Everyone who knew what was happening was questioning the rings, but it was simply a matter of not having a vent. 

My arir cleaner is an Edelbrock and they come with two knock-outs for a breather hose, so I have plenty of options.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

michaelfind said:


> Well, all you guys going on about the ME Wagner finally got to me. I called them yesterday and talked to Gene. He was very nice and helpful. He really knows this topic well. I have not ordered yet but plan to. Gene told me about the various ways to install this PCV. I have the valley pan with the gromet in the back and the P65 manifold I'm running is about the same dimensions as a stock tripower. Are either of you using the Pontiac Valley Pan adapter that ME Wagner offers? If possible, I'd prefer to not buy the adapter.
> 
> On a side note, Army, which fule pressure regulator do you have in picture you posted?
> 
> Thanks


I'm VERY happy with the valve! Gene spent a good 30 minutes on the phone with me, running various tests.

He did tell me that I could mount his valve in a valve cover if I wanted, and then have a breather in the other, but since he claimed that Pontiacs valley pan baffle setup was exceptional, I saw no reason to change.

Yes, I did use the valley pan adapter kit, but it wasnt necessary. The bottom line is, the ME Wagner valve has a 3/4" base and the oem PCV valve is about 1/2". It would be super easy to bore out the oem grommet or make another adapter. I will eventually.

My fuel pressure regulator is a Holley with a Marshall gauge. This is the 3rd car that I've run that same setup on. In the photo, it's a temp setup, but the final won't vary much. It's nice because it serves as a great elbow!

Here's the catch can I bought. Not sure if I need it yet... $25 and very nice construction


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

67ventwindow said:


> My 77 GP the breather went to the air cleaner then had a cleanable element. Just to tell you how bad the PVC system was the element was always oily so I still had pressure that the PVC didn't clear out and the system ran backwards at times. Meaning the intended breather was an exhaust half the time.Was that by design? Cause it made a mess out of the carb. Im sure I cleaned the thing a few times in the three years I owned it.


It's funny, I've always bought carb cleaner for my cars, but I never saw a carb that actually needed it, so I really thought it was a bit of a novelty. After understanding all of this, I can see how a bubba-engineered design or neglect, could really create issues.


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

Think I will get one for the mercury and use it as my test bed before I will put one on the 400. The LeMans isn't road worthy at the moment.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

Th


armyadarkness said:


> I'm VERY happy with the valve! Gene spent a good 30 minutes on the phone with me, running various tests.
> 
> He did tell me that I could mount his valve in a valve cover if I wanted, and then have a breather in the other, but since he claimed that Pontiacs valley pan baffle setup was exceptional, I saw no reason to change.
> 
> ...


Thank you. Very helpful information. That is a nice, discreet, catch can. I could probably find a place to hide that.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

The catch can is a real bonus, you will see that every time you clean it out,..all that black crud would have gone into your intake. The Pontiac extension does make it easy, But like army said you can do it without it.

As long as your valley pan is the original or a copy of that, many aftermarket valley pans do not have sufficient baffling. So in that case you can use a baffled valve cover...


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

Lemans guy said:


> The catch can is a real bonus, you will see that every time you clean it out,..all that black crud would have gone into your intake. The Pontiac extension does make it easy, But like army said you can do it without it.
> 
> As long as your valley pan is the original or a copy of that, many aftermarket valley pans do not have sufficient baffling. So in that case you can use a baffled valve cover...


Thank you. You may especially appreciate this tidbit, Lemans guy. Yes, it is an original Pontiac part. It is actually the valley pan off the 326 that was on my father's 67 LeMans he bought as his first new car. Yes, I have cleaned it thoroughly before installing on my rebuild! That LeMans was my introduction to Pontiacs! I have gradually worked up from 326, to 400, and now 467


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

michaelfind said:


> Th
> 
> Thank you. Very helpful information. That is a nice, discreet, catch can. I could probably find a place to hide that.


Very high quality machining and appearance. It's smaller than a soda can.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Cool, valley pan will work great!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> See where my breather is!
> View attachment 141354


Just go old school and add valve cover breathers ala MOON. I am installing 2 per side once I get the covers on my assembled engine to see where they need to be positioned so they don't hit anything. I just set these on a 350CI I have just to check my handy work out.

I got what looks like the same catch can off Amazon - nice quality for cheap.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Those look awesome...


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Just go old school and add valve cover breathers ala MOON. I am installing 2 per side once I get the covers on my assembled engine to see where they need to be positioned so they don't hit anything. I just set these on a 350CI I have just to check my handy work out.
> 
> I got what looks like the same catch can off Amazon - nice quality for cheap.
> 
> ...


Jim, During my quest for breathers, I did come across those and I like them! If I have the clearance, I'd love to do them.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

By the way, Gene from ME Wagner shot me an email, stating that he spoke to and sold to a few Pontiac guys this week. I'm glad that I got involved with ME Wagner before Holley buys them and then stops answering the phone!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

BTW, Here's the catch can link...


https://www.amazon.com/Ruien-0046-Universal-Aluminum-Reservoir/dp/B06XK9PTP7/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=catch+can&qid=1616156701&sr=8-3


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Just go old school and add valve cover breathers ala MOON. I am installing 2 per side once I get the covers on my assembled engine to see where they need to be positioned so they don't hit anything. I just set these on a 350CI I have just to check my handy work out.
> 
> I got what looks like the same catch can off Amazon - nice quality for cheap.
> 
> ...


Since you and I use the same carb, I'm anxious to see how your clearance goes! Keep me posted.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

armyadarkness said:


> By the way, Gene from ME Wagner shot me an email, stating that he spoke to and sold to a few Pontiac guys this week. I'm glad that I got involved with ME Wagner before Holley buys them and then stops answering the phone!


When I talked to him, I told him that this GTO forum was good publicity for him and he was thankful for that. Hey, make a good product and provide good customer support, then people will speak highly of you and your company. I think he understands those basic facts and, as you point out, has not yet been swallowed up by a giant corporation.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> Since you and I use the same carb, I'm anxious to see how your clearance goes! Keep me posted.


I think we have different intakes, so my clearances won't correspond with yours.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Reminds me of Crocodile Dundee......

That’s not an intake,....That’s an Intake!


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## flameout1 (Jul 26, 2010)

armyadarkness said:


> My 67 GTO has the original 400, which was rebuilt and using the original valve covers, with a breather on each, and the PCV valve in the valley pan.
> 
> Having had 60 cars, I never once paid any attention to the PCV system. I never knew what it was for, never really cared, and I was like most of the "uninformed" on the internet.
> 
> ...


hi just a quick question did a 67 gto out of the factory have a breather on the drivers side valve cover
thankyou


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

flameout1 said:


> hi just a quick question did a 67 gto out of the factory have a breather on the drivers side valve cover
> thankyou


I've had two 67's, with the original valve covers (to my knowledge), and yes, both had a breather on each cover. I can tell you that after this mess, I'll always have a breather in each cover.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

Unless you had a California car. All vehicles sold in CA from Jan 1, 1964 required a closed system. In other words, a tube from the valve cover to the air cleaner.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I remembered this thread and was looking for some advice, I too am having a problem with crank case pressure...I had the stock pcv plugged into the front of a Holley carb and non pcv breathers and was blowing the dipstick out making a mess then I bought one breather with a pcv valve and put a line to the bottom of my air cleaner drilling and taping for a barbed fitting and for an extra measure I put a small spring painted black from the frame hooked to the dipstick and had no problems. Now I bought a different carb with no pcv port on the front so I bought a valley pan billet pcv and had to run the line back and teed it into the carb vacuum port with my power brake line and also got new round breathers non pcv, so took it Thursday for the maiden voyage of 2021 and got on it 4-5 times check my shift lights and when I got home to check everything here's the dipstick up about half an inch with some oil on things. My question is I thought the valley pan pcv would take care of the pressure combined with the two way breathers, I really didn't want to buy a breather with a pcv valve that I would have to plumb into the bottom of my new air cleaner by drilling and taping again and it looks clean now didn't want another braided line if I can help it and would I need both breathers with pcv valves or is one enough and would I even need them with valves or just the foam filters? Any help would be much appreciated..and by the way the motor is a Butler 461, 9.5 compression, thanks in advance.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)




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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Sorry for the long winded post just wanted to describe my past condition and current also and forgot to post pictures of my current setup in that post, to note no oil came out of the breathers on my test drive.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Yep... Your situation is real close to mine. There are a couple of issues with your post... 


Just to clarify, you only need one PCV valve. Adding more at the valve covers, isnt going to help. 
Not all valves are created equal.
I can see that your engine is well thought out and maintained, which makes selecting the best parts even more difficult. They not only have to work, but they have to look great AND MATCH, so it's a bit more difficult.

You bought a fancy PCV, but it won't help evacuate the crankcase, any better than a regular tin PCV valve. You need a WAGNER!

However, looking at your pictures, I suspect that your breathers are also not doing their job. Ive seen those types, and if they have some small holes will packed foam inside, they wont breathe enough. 

My test runs shot out the dipstick. I secured it, then they shot out the breathers! I would take out the breathers and do a test run... unless you think that would blow oil everywhere as well.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> Sorry for the long winded post just wanted to describe my past condition and current also and forgot to post pictures of my current setup in that post, to note no oil came out of the breathers on my test drive.


I doubt those breathers could ever pass oil out of them. They're usually very restrictive.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Ok I'll look into the Wagner but just so I understand are you saying I only need one pcv in the valley pan or one in the valve cover also? I took the passenger side breather out and apart and there's just one little spot of oil on the foam then I blew and sucked air threw it with my mouth and they breath pretty good, I didn't have any oil coming out of either after my drive just the dipstick came out a little with some oil out of there. I did order a breather just what I have except with a pcv valve and was going to plumb it to the underside of the air cleaner like had previous and that seemed to work, what do you think? Come to think of it on my last setup I took the pcv valve out of the breather and just had a braided line from the breather to the underside of the air cleaner so maybe that's what I'll do again if you're saying I don't need another pcv valve then I'll look into the Wagner for the valley pan.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Yes


Baaad65 said:


> Ok I'll look into the Wagner but just so I understand are you saying I only need one pcv in the valley pan or one in the valve cover also? I took the passenger side breather out and apart and there's just one little spot of oil on the foam then I blew and sucked air threw it with my mouth and they breath pretty good, I didn't have any oil coming out of either after my drive just the dipstick came out a little with some oil out of there. I did order a breather just what I have except with a pcv valve and was going to plumb it to the underside of the air cleaner like had previous and that seemed to work, what do you think? Come to think of it on my last setup I took the pcv valve out of the breather and just had a braided line from the breather to the underside of the air cleaner so maybe that's what I'll do again if you're saying I don't need another pcv valve then I'll look into the Wagner for the valley pan.


Not only do you only need one PCV, you only want one PCV. 

The PCV is simply a vacuum controlled valve, which allows crank case gasses to vent under certain settings. There's no benefit to having two, but there are serious draw backs to it!!!! Itll clutter up the engine bay and likely make your issue worse. 

Like every breathing system, sucking air in is impossible without a vent, and the intake has to match the outlet. 

The PCV requires a direct connection to vacuum and the vent goes to the air cleaner, so connecting the PCV to the air cleaner, will accomplish nothing at all... except to restrict your system.

I suspect that your breathers arent filled with oil, because you're blowing out your dipstick and relieving the pressure.

Most PCVs, including the one that you bought, only vent for a very small portion of time... The Wagner operates most of the time. Plus, I'd like to see a picture of the underside of your breathers. I still think they're probably restrictive.

It looks like you spend a lot of time and money on your car. You take a lot of pride in it, so I would go back to the beginning of this thread and read all of the posts.

Like me, you're over-thinking the simple system, but between this thread and the wagner site, you'll become an expert in no time at all.

And, do it sooner than later... because if your dipstick is popping out, then your valve cover, valley pan, and rear seal, aren't far behind!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Well I looked up the Wagner sight and it's very impressive then called and talked to Gene, what a nice guy he took the time to explain everything and came up with a plan. So I have the valve ordered and he said try it with my breathers and maybe I can even enlarge the small holes underneath if needed and maybe it will save me from running lines to the bottom of the air cleaner which he said would have to be a 1/2" on each and would look messy. Also I have to get the brake booster line off the pcv circuit so I'm going to have to use the port in the manifold where my interior vacuum gauge is connected with a different fitting then run the gauge line up to the front of the carb. My other carb had a pcv port off the front but this one does not. Who new pcv was so important but this is far from a stock motor, thanks again for all your help and explanations...now I got some re plumbing to do, to get this thing right.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> Well I looked up the Wagner sight and it's very impressive then called and talked to Gene, what a nice guy he took the time to explain everything and came up with a plan. So I have the valve ordered and he said try it with my breathers and maybe I can even enlarge the small holes underneath if needed and maybe it will save me from running lines to the bottom of the air cleaner which he said would have to be a 1/2" on each and would look messy. Also I have to get the brake booster line off the pcv circuit so I'm going to have to use the port in the manifold where my interior vacuum gauge is connected with a different fitting then run the gauge line up to the front of the carb. My other carb had a pcv port off the front but this one does not. Who new pcv was so important but this is far from a stock motor, thanks again for all your help and explanations...now I got some re plumbing to do, to get this thing right.


Most people don't know how important PCV is, because they think that poor performance and oil leaks are just part of "old cars". Gene is awesome and he has read this thread, and sold a few valves to the guys in it. He wasnt able to fully diagnose my breathers as culprits, but I learned so much from him and his site, that I determined them to be the issue. My breathers are very unique and near impossible to find high flow versions, so I had to make them myself.

You wont have that issue... and it looks like you enjoy plumbing, so get to it.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Agreed, I didn't get it until now but you build a big horsepower motor with all these high performance parts then you leave the pcv system stock and it could take your motor down, of course that motor is going to make more internal pressure so it needs to be high performance also just never thought of it and never heard of that Wagner valve, thanks to this site and you guys for the education and saving me money, aggravation and maybe my motor. Seeing this now I wonder why Butler doesn't recommend or sell these you would think they know what's best for these motors.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

There are many reasons that I can think of, why Butler wouldnt mention it, however I'd only be guessing.

They do seem race oriented, and race guys don't really deal with PCV.

Bear in mind that in my case, the valve alone didn't do it. The breathers needed serious attention as well. I'm still interested in seeing a pic of the bottom of your breathers.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

That could be true but their site is filled with pictures of street motors, here's a picture of what I have but mine are all polished not black, I am thinking of enlarging all the holes as Gene said it




















might be a good idea.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

...boy I screwed that post up


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> ...boy I screwed that post up


Like I said... Butler could have a dozen reasons, ranging from not liking the owner to religious beliefs. Just like GM decided that Pontiac wasnt necessary, don't assume that it's for performance or efficiency reasons.

Anywho...

Looking at your breathers, yes, that is absolutely your issue. You can test my theory by removing them and making a test run. I'll bet you a GTO drink coaster set that you don't blow the dipstick!

I would completely bore out the center portion, which pushes into the VC and I would drill out the perimeter holes to as large as possible. Those look extremely restrictive.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

I too have talked to Gene and found him to be very helpful. I received my ME Wagner PCV valve yesterday and plan to install it soon.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Ya why did they can Pontiac, they keep Buick...really ? Ok will do but drilling out the center completely I'm afraid to much oil will get into the breathers as I had to remove the baffles in the valve covers to clear the rockers, think I'll start by enlarging the holes first and see how it goes once I have the Wagner pcv...thanks again for all the help!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> Ya why did they can Pontiac, they keep Buick...really ? Ok will do but drilling out the center completely I'm afraid to much oil will get into the breathers as I had to remove the baffles in the valve covers to clear the rockers, think I'll start by enlarging the holes first and see how it goes once I have the Wagner pcv...thanks again for all the help!


I have no baffles either. Just remember, you need to flow equally in both directions. Restricting your breather is the same as throwing a tunnel ram and a 4 bbl on a straight six with stock exhaust.

YOU NEED TO FLOW!

As I mentioned yesterday, re-read this thread. When your system is functioning properly, then you'll be sucking in through the breathers almost all of the time, and then when you do stomp on it, there won't be pressure in your crankcase, so you won't blow oil.

You have a pressurized crank case. You're already blowing out the dipstick. Soon, you'll blow out the engines gaskets. You need to evacuate your crankcase. The Wagner PCV will do it better than anything else out there, but it will ONLY evacuate what you can displace it with. So... if it's capable of evacuating 90% of your crankcase, but you only allow it to intake 50%, then your efforts are wasted.

Oil shouldn't be blowing out of a breather, which is sucking in. And if any does blow out, during the very infrequent period of pressure, it will be minimal. And, if it's too much, we cross that bridge when we get to it!

VC baffles are much more critical on a car with a stock PCV valve, which only evacuates a fraction of the time. 

On my first run with wanger, I didn't shoot the dipstick out... I shot both breathers out (and lost them)! Glad I did too. If not, it could've just as easily been my oil pan gasket.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

This should breath better at least it did in my mouth, now just waiting on the Wagner pcv...I did ended up having some oil leak out of the drivers side valve cover in the back so good thing I'm addressing it. Took the spring off the dipstick so we'll see how it goes, first car show is Sunday.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

Heres a diagram showing how a factory closed (CPCV) system works. 

At high speed or acceleration, the PCV is closed due to no vacuum. The crankcase fumes are pulled out through the valve cover into the air cleaner. 

At normal cruising speed with high vacuum levels, the Valve is open allowing the fumes to be pulled from the crankcase through the valve into the carb base/intake manifold. Air is drawn in from the air cleaner into the valve cover, to the crankcase, just the opposite of a no vacuum operation. 

Using a valve cover breather will work fine at cruising speeds, but won't be as efficient as a closed system during periods of low or no vacuum. I'm guessing that the Wagner valve addresses that problem. 

Just guessing...


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> This should breath better at least it did in my mouth, now just waiting on the Wagner pcv...I did ended up having some oil leak out of the drivers side valve cover in the back so good thing I'm addressing it. Took the spring off the dipstick so we'll see how it goes, first car show is Sunday.
> View attachment 142196


Now you're talking!!!!!!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

The valve is in and tuned so we'll see if the dipstick stays in on Sunday...first show 👍


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Nice, and you can tune that idle circuit way up if you still have pressure, you probably started with 1&1/2 turns,....you can up that by half turn increments, 2, 2 1/2, 3 turns.you do have to reset the cruise circuit each time you do that.

I had to go to 2 1/2 turns on the idle circuit to get it right. There also is a fixed orifice setting above that. So don’t give up on the valve, keep working with it!

one dialed in you will love it......Army laid out his experience with it. One of the best things that you can do with your car


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Sounds good, leaving for the show in a few so I'll keep an eye on it. Can't remember how many turns out it is now, so is the only way to see if if it's working good is the dipstick stays put after a good blast ?are there any other things I can look for?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Ok so back from the show and got on it hard 2-3 times dipstick stayed in and no oil out of or in the breathers so I assume everything's ok but another problem might be going on, the first time out and today you can smell antifreeze in the cockpit right away then it seems to lessen after a while, I have no leaks outside and nothing inside so far and the only thing I changed with the system was changing out the 160 degree high flow thermostat to a 180 degree high flow thermostat and increased the radiator cap from a 13 lb to a 14-16 lb cap. So maybe I have a small leak in the heater core that isn't showing up inside yet from the extra pressure? Thoughts anyone??


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> Sounds good, leaving for the show in a few so I'll keep an eye on it. Can't remember how many turns out it is now, so is the only way to see if if it's working good is the dipstick stays put after a good blast ?are there any other things I can look for?


The PCV signs are oil/ dip sticks/ breathers blowing out, so it sounds like you're good. As for the antifreeze I'd do a search for that on the main site, or post a new thread about it. However, aside from heater core, not much else to consider.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

That's what I was afraid of, thanks.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> That's what I was afraid of, thanks.


I did a heater core on a 66 Lemans, in my youth. It was the worst job ever.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

That doesn't make me feel better, I think I know the answer but what about a stop leak product to get me through the summer then I can take my time replacing it in the winter. Guess I should have stuck with the 13 lb cap.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> That doesn't make me feel better, I think I know the answer but what about a stop leak product to get me through the summer then I can take my time replacing it in the winter. Guess I should have stuck with the 13 lb cap.


I would not use stop leak. If in fact it is leaking and you want to get through the summer, simply remove the heater hoses in the engine bay and install a bypass tube in them, to eliminate the core.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

That's what I was thinking, thanks.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> Ok so back from the show and got on it hard 2-3 times dipstick stayed in and no oil out of or in the breathers so I assume everything's ok but another problem might be going on, the first time out and today you can smell antifreeze in the cockpit right away then it seems to lessen after a while, I have no leaks outside and nothing inside so far and the only thing I changed with the system was changing out the 160 degree high flow thermostat to a 180 degree high flow thermostat and increased the radiator cap from a 13 lb to a 14-16 lb cap. So maybe I have a small leak in the heater core that isn't showing up inside yet from the extra pressure? Thoughts anyone??


Maybe just some spilled anti-freeze from the t-stat swap and it burned off. I would not do anything just yet until I got some time/miles on it. Then go from there.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

I would either bypass the heater core, or block off the outlets on the timing cover. That is until you can put in a new heater core. It's an ugly job, but if your young and flexible you can do it. There's one bolt that is almost impossible to get to. The Chassis manual says you have to loosen the inner fender panel to get to it. I got it done on two different cars without doing that, but they were both a pain.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I was careful when I swapped it out even using a shop vac with a smaller hose to go into the top radiator hose to the state so I wouldn't flood all over and had plenty of rags around it, I don't even get out of the driveway and can smell it. There were a couple of drips right under where the heater and lower hose connect to the water pump I noticed on Thursday but couldn't feel any drips off of anything and I wasn't doing anything with antifreeze but they haven't come back, I tightened all the hoses after that. I still think changing the cap to a higher pressure triggered a weak spot in the heater coil but until it is dripping somewhere I'm leaving it alone.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

Maybe you're lucky and only have to change the heater hoses.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Sorry that's stat and heater core...I have about 60 miles on it now this year so I would think anything would be burned off. That core job sounds awful and I'm not young and flexible I've actually had two cortisone shots in my left facet joints in 2019 and two shots on the right for a herniated disc for my 55 birthday last June. Why couldn't they just have put the nuts on the inside of the car, I sure don't want to take a fender off, maybe I can put it off until I get it painting in a couple years.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Hoses are only about 5 years old, they are stainless braided over rubber, I guess wait and see then if needed I'll perform bypass surgery.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

Make sure your hoses and connections are good first. If that doesn't work and you try the heater core replacement yourself, then try to get the difficult bolt out first. It's at the end of the dog house, behind the inner fender panel.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

I didn't see your post about the age of your hoses. I'd still inspect them closely. Another possibility is the heater core nipple. It crushes easily and could have a slow leak that migrates down the hose.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Ok will do, no drips anywhere inside or out today after the show yesterday.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I just rebuilt my entire cooling system, a month back. I had the same mysterious puddles a few days later... but nothing was leaking. The expansion and contraction must have loosened up a hose. Either way... It happened twice, and after retightening everything, it's holding.

I never had this happen in the past, but now it has.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Ya that's strange, mine had to come from one of the hoses and must have dried before I felt them, I'm betting the core is original from 56 years ago and the car wasn't taken care of and spent a lot of time outdoors...3 more pounds of pressure is alot on old parts.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I jumped back to the pcv health thread because I felt it wasn't a timing thing, here's a helpful part I came up with to connect my vacuum gauge to the Wagner pcv when adjusting since it's in a tight spot just an fyi 👍 and I have to admit I broke the golden rule of...when working over a hole in the engine stuff a rag in the damn thing...in taking out the small allen plug of the Wagner valve to insert the vacuum gauge fitting it fell right into the pcv opening and into the valley pan, I think I threw up in my mouth. Luckily I remember doing the same stupid thing blowing a check ball out of one of my tripower carbs when I was 20, luckily they are soft so started the motor and listened for which cylinder it was, put a piece of magnetic rod in a vacuum hose and went fishing coming up with a flatter ball, disaster avoided so I did the same thing this time and caught the little sucker deep inside the valley pan, good thing it wasn't the brass fitting or I would have been shop vacuuming it. And just thought again about a valve cover baffle and probably won't work as the breathers are in between rocker sets and it protrudes in to far.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> I jumped back to the pcv health thread because I felt it wasn't a timing thing, here's a helpful part I came up with to connect my vacuum gauge to the Wagner pcv when adjusting since it's in a tight spot just an fyi 👍 and I have to admit I broke the golden rule of...when working over a hole in the engine stuff a rag in the damn thing...in taking out the small allen plug of the Wagner valve to insert the vacuum gauge fitting it fell right into the pcv opening and into the valley pan, I think I threw up in my mouth. Luckily I remember doing the same stupid thing blowing a check ball out of one of my tripower carbs when I was 20, luckily they are soft so started the motor and listened for which cylinder it was, put a piece of magnetic rod in a vacuum hose and went fishing coming up with a flatter ball, disaster avoided so I did the same thing this time and caught the little sucker deep inside the valley pan, good thing it wasn't the brass fitting or I would have been shop vacuuming it. And just thought again about a valve cover baffle and probably won't work as the breathers are in between rocker sets and it protrudes in to far.
> View attachment 143491


You have my luck. I could be working on a carb on a bench 15 feet away and have a part fly off the carb and slam dunk right down the intake, snake down the ONLY passage where the intake valve was open at full lift, and drop smack into the cylinder. LOL

You don't need any baffles if you are not pushing any oil out of the breathers. You didn't say you were pushing oil out of them, just the dipstick was popping up and some oil flowing out? If you drilled all those holes larger and opened up the center hole in both breathers, I can't see how engine pressure would build enough to still push up the dipstick. You do have 2 breathers, right?

Do you know that your oil level is correct - not over full? If you used an aftermarket dipstick, the reading could be off. Stock oil pan would be 5 qts in the pan and 1 qt for the filter depending on the type/size of the filter - unless you have an aftermarket deep pan?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

A little oil now showed up in the breathers, left the tube Butler installed but put a chrome dipstick for a Pontiac in, have a Wix filter that's maybe a 1/2" taller than the filter Butler put on, used 6 quarts maybe a touch over on the oil change two weeks ago, just over the full mark by accident. The build sheet shows a stock 6 quart pan.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

PJ is right Baffles are not needed under breathers, only under the PCV so it won’t pull too much oil


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

If you replaced the dipstick, I hope you compared it to the one that you removed. I see Chevy parts advertised every day, as "for Pontiac". The stick has to match the tube, so it's not enough to have a Pontiac dipstick. A GTO tube with a Catalina stick, might be a real bad idea.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Yes I compared them and I put only 6 quarts of oil in.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Victory Friday, put some more holes in the breathers and set the pcv to the fixed orifice mode with the idle screw out 3 turns (4 is the max) four hard blasts through the gears a the stick stayed put 👍


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Those breathers have come a long way. IMO, you were choking the engine. Glad to hear this!!


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Super job baad! Perseverance always pays off! I just emptied my catch can from the Wagner valve, an ounce of deep black oil that would have been gumming up my intake sitting on the valves and even the spark plugs. This way you just drain it out, keeps it all nice and clean inside.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Also checked the oil level after sitting a few days and it was slightly over filled about 8 ounces so drained some out, that could have been part of the problem. Forgot I filled the oil filter halfway so it wouldn't have to fill up as much when started.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Yes overfill will do that, try it now and let us know how you do!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

My catch can has quite a bit of oil in it, between changes! At least 4 ounces


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

You need a better baffle. On the Wagner web you can see how they baffled a valve cover by welding a plate inside. You can do that, have Wagner in one side Breather in the other. Just make the Valley pan an oil fill.

or you can buy baffled Pontiac valve covers.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

CFR performance sells baffled Pontiac engine valve covers, fit 1959 to 1977 engines. If you do a custom weld you have to clay out the distance for the rockers to make sure that you don’t hit them.

But it works great in the valve cover


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

armyadarkness said:


> My catch can has quite a bit of oil in it, between changes! At least 4 ounces


Do you get that much oil running through a baffled valley pan (cover) or do you have yours set up different?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Lemans guy said:


> You need a better baffle. On the Wagner web you can see how they baffled a valve cover by welding a plate inside. You can do that, have Wagner in one side Breather in the other. Just make the Valley pan an oil fill.
> 
> or you can buy baffled Pontiac valve covers.


My Edelbrock valve covers are here to stay at this point. I have far too much time and money invested in them. I'd relocate the PCV to one, but if I'm already blowing out the breathers at WOT, that's probably not the best idea. For now it's all okay, but I'll redo it some day.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

michaelfind said:


> Do you get that much oil running through a baffled valley pan (cover) or do you have yours set up different?


It goes through the baffled valley pan, but it's also based on your driving habits. If I drive hard its worse, but I just look at it like the cost of doing business. Its not bad if I drive like a respectable person. Either way, it's not going in my intake, which is my goal.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Lemans guy said:


> CFR performance sells baffled Pontiac engine valve covers, fit 1959 to 1977 engines. If you do a custom weld you have to clay out the distance for the rockers to make sure that you don’t hit them.
> 
> But it works great in the valve cover


Right now, I'm going to get to the bottom of my power issues before I change much else. This car is the 3rd Ive owned and it should have the most power, but it's just not right.

It's a $7000 build, full roller, pro billet dizzy, performer intake, dougs headers, MSD 6a, 670 heads, forged pistons, stainless valves, with 336's, and I'm just not feeling the power, at all. This car should be putting me back in my seat but it's very tame, especially in the mid range. Something isnt right.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

You are right you can just periodically empty the catch can and then check your oil….add as needed

blow by, condensation and crud out, clean intake and runs great and 4 ounces is not a great amount..you just have to pay attention to it..

before that was gumming up your valves and intake, better to drain it out!


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

armyadarkness said:


> It goes through the baffled valley pan, but it's also based on your driving habits. If I drive hard its worse, but I just look at it like the cost of doing business. Its not bad if I drive like a respectable person. Either way, it's not going in my intake, which is my goal.





Lemans guy said:


> You are right you can just periodically empty the catch can and then check your oil….add as needed
> 
> blow by, condensation and crud out, clean intake and runs great and 4 ounces is not a great amount..you just have to pay attention to it..
> 
> before that was gumming up your valves and intake, better to drain it out!


Well, I think it is very "respectable" that BearGFR has an honest 11 second street car, but I get what you mean by respectable driving. 

So, I guess I will get a catch can after all. The man I spoke with at Wagner said that Pontiac stock valley pans were so well baffled I really shouldn't need one, but I would certainly regret it after all when everything is gummed up. I'm gradually losing my "stock appearance." Where is the best place to hide the catch can?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

For the record, stock appearances and reversible mods are "my thing". When I go to a car show, I want to be the 67 GTO which everyone see's and instantly remembers the first one that they ever saw. When it comes to the engine bay, most people at a car show couldnt tell a Ford engine from a Pontiac, so I'm a little more relaxed about my design. The catch can that I got is small enough that it could be behind the intake, or even down below the heater box where the inner fender and frame are. Many options.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

They are easy to hide, I say flaunt it, put it right on the firewall or wherever it is easy and works good. The next owner wants original? Take off the two screws and remove it. Not like it is not reversible. Best question at the cruise in is,......

What is that?


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

armyadarkness said:


> For the record, stock appearances and reversible mods are "my thing". When I go to a car show, I want to be the 67 GTO which everyone see's and instantly remembers the first one that they ever saw. When it comes to the engine bay, most people at a car show couldnt tell a Ford engine from a Pontiac, so I'm a little more relaxed about my design. The catch can that I got is small enough that it could be behind the intake, or even down below the heater box where the inner fender and frame are. Many options.


That's good news because I just ordered the exact one you provided a link for several pages back.

Thank you


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

Lemans guy said:


> They are easy to hide, I say flaunt it, put it right on the firewall or wherever it is easy and works good. The next owner wants original? Take off the two screws and remove it. Not like it is not reversible. Best question at the cruise in is,......
> 
> What is that?


I say, "that's my flux capacitor!"


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

You can keep your stash in there!


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

Does the Brillo pad thing go inside the can? Nice product but no instructions...


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Yes


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

michaelfind said:


> Does the Brillo pad thing go inside the can? Nice product but no instructions...


You don't need that, but apparently it helps, so I kept it.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

Lemans guy said:


> Yes





armyadarkness said:


> You don't need that, but apparently it helps, so I kept it.


I'm blending posts again, but this applies to timing and PCV. Today, I installed my Wagner PCV valve and got it adjusted. Still runs fine and everything sounds/looks good. I'm idling 15-20 cooler than a few days ago. It's basically the same temperature outside. I did not change fuel, timing, oil, or anything. My console vacuum gauge still shows the same 15-16 at idle, plus I have the Lars VAC installed, so it's not like I'm pulling in more advance now with the Wagner PCV. This is great but I like to understand these improvements so I can pass them on or optimize them in the future. Thoughts? Why is it idling cooler with the new PCV?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

michaelfind said:


> I'm blending posts again, but this applies to timing and PCV. Today, I installed my Wagner PCV valve and got it adjusted. Still runs fine and everything sounds/looks good. I'm idling 15-20 cooler than a few days ago. It's basically the same temperature outside. I did not change fuel, timing, oil, or anything. My console vacuum gauge still shows the same 15-16 at idle, plus I have the Lars VAC installed, so it's not like I'm pulling in more advance now with the Wagner PCV. This is great but I like to understand these improvements so I can pass them on or optimize them in the future. Thoughts? Why is it idling cooler with the new PCV?


The only thought I can come up with is that the Wagner valve better meters the vacuum and is far less a "leak" as with the stock type PCV. You may now have a better and more consistent vacuum signal pulling in on the vacuum can.

Other than than, maybe the gods are shining down on you and felt you needed a break.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Well, not a benefit that I have noticed. The Wagner does relieve the crankcase pressure and pressure makes heat, blow by from the rings is heat as well. So maybe because the Wagner pulls a vacumn 99% of the time on the crankcase there is some heat reduction. It won’t effect manifold vacumn, so your timing vacumn will not change, those are separate chambers.

Give Gene Wagner a call maybe something that they have noticed.

Actually I think you are seeing the benefits of perfect timing, a cool running engine and the added benefit of that dual flow PCV Wagner. Either that or your engine saw you driving with your new Ray-Bans and now it thinks it is cool too!


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

And don’t disagree with PJ’s analysis of the efficiency of the Wagner stabilizing the signal. Those original $5 PCV’s are super garbage.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

My Wagner seems to be working good on the fixed orifice position with my swiss cheese breathers, I have a barely used billet pcv I'll let go for 4.00 😉


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

You. Ishtar want to keep that PCV, it is original…….could be worth Buko bucks….

$4.01 even $4.02 for the right buyer…….


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

armyadarkness said:


> You don't need that, but apparently it helps, so I kept it.


Just to make sure I don't mess this up entirely: hose from PCV to "in" on catch can, then hose from "out" on catch can to base of carburetor?


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Yes the intake from under your carb sucks vacumn on the catch can,…the top of the catch can or higher fitting sucks on the line to the PCV. The crud goes up through the PCV into the top of the catch can which usually has some Brillo type mesh filter on top that cools the vapors and traps liquid crud the airborne burn able stuff continues on thru and is sucked into the intake and burned up.

You win all around, you burned up what could be burned and you later drain the black like oil crud from the can.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I know this is getting old but looking for any help out there, I thought my crank case pressure problem was solved with the Wagner in the fixed orifice position but apparently not because the dipstick has popped up again so I contacted Wagner and they said put the valve back to using both idle and cruise circuits adjusted to their directions then change the breathers so I did buying the Mr. Gasket high flow breathers for 20.00 a piece. Took it out yesterday for some wot runs with the same results and now there's oil in the new breathers so I can't return them unless I can clean them up good. So is this problem deeper like ring blow by because idk what else to do and I have an email into Wagner telling them what happened...so frustrating !


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> I know this is getting old but looking for any help out there, I thought my crank case pressure problem was solved with the Wagner in the fixed orifice position but apparently not because the dipstick has popped up again so I contacted Wagner and they said put the valve back to using both idle and cruise circuits adjusted to their directions then change the breathers so I did buying the Mr. Gasket high flow breathers for 20.00 a piece. Took it out yesterday for some wot runs with the same results and now there's oil in the new breathers so I can't return them unless I can clean them up good. So is this problem deeper like ring blow by because idk what else to do and I have an email into Wagner telling them what happened...so frustrating !
> View attachment 145225


Not interested if the oil went into the breathers. What I want to know is: *DID THE BREATHERS KEEP THE DIPSTICK FROM POPPING UP? *


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Nope, that's what I'm saying with the new breathers installed I got the same results as my drilled out old breathers, stick up a half inch and some oil sprayed out. Maybe it's time to do a cylinder pressure and leak down test, there's only about 2000 miles on the motor since it was broke in and dynoed at Butler in 2014 but maybe something happened in that time or when first started it up, I did put a bottle of break in oil before the initial start up but on the first oil change after running it a few hours it came out milky and thin so I think some water got in the engine when I cleaned and prepped it for paint even though I taped everything up..idk hopefully that didn't do any damage to the rings and I'm not seeing any blue smoke at all. Also I had an issue with not enough voltage to the coil thanks to an unmarked resistor wire engine harness that caused the motor to run very rough like missing a few spark plugs so idk if that caused any damage upon initial start up?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Also remember the silver specs on a couple plugs, I think I was to lean and to much advance all last summer maybe that caused some damage idk but it's running good now except for the off idle hesitation before it takes off like a scalded dog.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> Also remember the silver specs on a couple plugs, I think I was to lean and to much advance all last summer maybe that caused some damage idk but it's running good now except for the off idle hesitation before it takes off like a scalded dog.
> [/QUOTE
> 
> OK, so no improvements.
> ...


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I hit the "Reply" button and recently it keep getting the post along with "Expand." WTF? Never used to do this or am I losing my mind and have forgotten how to post a reply.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Thought something was off, as I understand it Butler built it for a customer who didn't use it for some reason then sold it to another guy who was going to put it in a Firebird as a sleeper but decided to go bigger and never installed it so he sold it to me so idk about any damage that would be known. I am running a shade low on oil, I'll try the cylinder pressure test sometime and I do have an inspection camera I can try but if I had a bad ring wouldn't I be seeing blue smoke and oil consumption? I'd hate to tie the dipstick down because I'll loose the rear main seal. Probably a dumb question but is this beyond some Rislone oil treatment, would only be a 6.00 investment with no harm.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> Thought something was off, as I understand it Butler built it for a customer who didn't use it for some reason then sold it to another guy who was going to put it in a Firebird as a sleeper but decided to go bigger and never installed it so he sold it to me so idk about any damage that would be known. I am running a shade low on oil, I'll try the cylinder pressure test sometime and I do have an inspection camera I can try but if I had a bad ring wouldn't I be seeing blue smoke and oil consumption? I'd hate to tie the dipstick down because I'll loose the rear main seal. Probably a dumb question but is this beyond some Rislone oil treatment, would only be a 6.00 investment with no harm.



I would not use any additive at this time. I would use the bore scope and look at the cylinder walls and pistons. You won't see a broken ring unless the top piston land broke off or a piece of it broke off. Look for any deep scratches/gouging on the walls.

The leak-down test should tell you what you need. I read that this is the way to go because if you just do a compression test, it may show that everything is OK and then you will be scratching your head trying to figure it out. So do whatever it takes to do that test.

Again, you may not have enough miles on the engine and the rings are not quite seated. It is possible a poor break-in was done. I assume Butler did the break-in on the dyno?

You may or may not see blue smoke. I read a number of other assorted posts on the internet and some said they too had no tell-tale smoke. Remember, it may only be happening moreso at the higher RPM's and at those speeds you may not see the smoke.

You may want to consider a vacuum pump, but I cannot say if that will work or not. Have read where the person did everything you have done to vent the engine and still it pushed oil/popped up the dip stick. They added a vacuum pump and that did the trick. I have no experience with a vacuum pump so I cannot even tell you how to set one up. I wonder if you could use a modern electric vacuum pump used on cars today for the power brakes? Junkyards have them cheap and maybe just rig one up temporarily just to give it a try.

Have you tried seeing at what RPM it pushes oil? I might keep a log and see. Keep the engine to 5K on several runs and look at the breathers. Then 5.5K and look, and so on. See if it is possible to isolate at what RPM you seem to push the oil. Might help in figuring it out?

Assume you have a factory fuel pump? Some guys/racers, will use an electric fuel pump and block off the factory fuel pump attachment with a plate - you know what I mean. But, they drill/tap a hole in the plate so they can run a line to it and monitor internal engine pressures with a boost gauge. They use this to monitor internal pressure and then the vacuum made bu their vacuum pumps. They don't want too much vacuum any more than too much pressure. Just a thought.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

All good stuff I can try, I would think Butler broke it in correctly before the dyno pulls. It seems that it pops out at 5k and above from what I recall, It's funny I don't think of it as a new motor as this is the fourth summer with it but when it only gets driven 500 miles or so a year that's not a lot, heck I do 50 miles a day just to and from work...thanks again for all your time, help and insight 👍


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

The reason that you're popping out is too much pressure... and at those high rpm's, your breathers are exhaling, not inhaling. I'd verify absolutely that the Wagner is tuned properly, and then try your runs without any breathers at all.

I went through the same thing that you are! The Wagner needs to be evacuating properly at idle and cruise, so that when you womp on it there's not already pressure in there. 

Every breather that I tried was too restrictive. I had to make my own and it solved it.

Your new breathers have oil in them after one pass? You're answering your own question and proving my point. The crank case is "trying" to vent by blowing out of the breathers... when it can't, out goes your dipstick.

Verify the Wagner and then run zero breathers to test.

I do not think your engine is having issues, because what you're reporting are the exact symptoms of a poorly designed/ tuned PCV setup. That being said, if you didn't get the engine from Butler, then anything is possible.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Well the new breathers had no restrictions at all, a 3/4" hole and then just a light element, no foam and taller than my other ones you could really huff through them, I talked to Matt Wagner today and he said those should be enough and that I could tweak the valve. He says the valve doesn't do anything at WOT so yes now the pressure exits the breathers and the oil in the breather which is not much at all is because I couldn't fit a baffle under them because of rocker clearance but I'm not worried about that and funny the oil only shows up in the passenger side breather. I can try a run without them but have to rig something so the car isn't bathed in oil, and he said I shouldn't open the valve up to much or I will need an oil catch can. I also was thinking maybe the stick is coming out from a lot of vibration on WOT runs idk ? I've seen a lot of cars with smaller breathers and ones just like mine that weren't drilled out with no problems with the dipstick when I asked.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

I like the catch can, keep your plugs, valves and intake very clean and easy to drain off the crud. No real negative, it can be a subtle addition. The Wagner is very tunable. I had to turn my idle circuit up to 2 1/2 turns and then reset cruise circuit to get it right, but you can even go to three turns and after that it has a fixed orifice mode.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Ok I'll look into the can, I did have my valve out three turns before going to the fixed orifice position so I'll increase it, also I did have the same amount of oil in the driver's side when I just removed them now and I drilled the 1/4" holes bigger to 9/32" so now I have 16 holes at 9/32" and I cut the foam in half and put a couple spots silocone to hold the foam to the top of the breathers because they would push back over the holes under pressure. I'm just thinking when you got the motor it had standard chrome valve covers with the breather holes in the center but no breathers so I'm wondering what type Butler would have used to prevent this problem because the stock push in ones wouldn't be as good as what I have now. Also Matt Wagner and his dad found it odd that the pressure would find it's way up the small dipstick tube when I had good breathers. Also said the rings should be seated by now but could do a leak down test. What do your breathers look like Army? And what is everyone else running? Is this a common problem for everyone or just higher hp motors?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Again, you're answering your own questions here... Yes, the PCV is not doing anything at WOT, when you're blowing it... which is why it's so critical that your crankcase is already empty when you go to WOT. So if the Wagner is set too conservatively, it's leaving an excess of gases at cruise, then when you go to WOT, pop goes the dipstick.

This is an area where the health of your engine is hurting you. Sounds like it's built just like it should be.

The statement that "any more open and it would require a can", is the tell tale here. You're not evacuating your crankcase, and therefore your dipstick is blowing out. You can't have a race engine and expect fuel economy. You can't have sport suspension and expect a cushy ride. You can't have a convertible without getting your hair messed up. And you can't have no PCV without blowing out everything else.

I can appreciate that you're trying to cheat the system... maintaining a certain look while achieving your goals, but this dilemma is as old as caveman. If you're going to have your cake and eat it too, then figure out how to get fuel economy out of a GTO. After that, you'll be a millionaire and you can hire Sherlock Holmes to solve your dipstick caper. In the meantime:

Tune the Wagner to do what it was meant to. Take a WOT run and see if the dipstick pops. If not, you're done. Add a catch can.
If it does pop, remove the breathers and take another WOT run. If the dipstick doesnt pop, you need bigger breathers. Wash your car and replace them.
Just remember, I started this thread because I had the exact same issue as you. If you found a magic genie and asked him to deliver you a Pontiac GTO owner with a popped out dipstick, he'd have sent you here.

For the record, I spent a month scouring the internet for the correct breathers and they did not exist, so I made my own. It wasnt what I wanted to do, but my car is happy.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Well said Army, the crankcase is like your lungs it has to inhale and exhale. The breathers are inhaling fresh clean air…..the PCV and intake vacumn are exhale the crankcase vapors into the intake. You have to have adequate volume on each side. The valve pulls out the corrosive vapors and crud, the fresh air comes in through the breathers. Too much blow out of the breathers and leaky seals and gaskets indicates inadequate evacuation of the crankcase by the PCV system,

Some folks only use breathers, but with no positive evacuation of the crankcase by vacumn the crankcase is always under pressure. Pressure from the atmosphere at 14.7 pounds per square inch, plus the pressure from the downward movement of the piston rings. This all adds pressure and they only place it can be relieved is through the breather holes that are supposed to be providing incoming fresh air. Vacumn remember, is the absence of pressure, even 1 to 3 HG vacumn is “no pressure”.

So physics really rule here, go with the physics. Some will say they use breathers only, works great. But there crankcase is always pressurized, choose your way but fighting the physics is like railing against gravity and swearing the earth is flat. It looks flat from ones point of view, but it ain’t so.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

My $60,000 GTO currently has $1.75 worth of kitchen sink parts as VC breathers. I'm not happy about it, but they don't sell what I need, so I have to make them some day. In the meantime... I'm not thrilled to have it look like Roto Rooter designed my PCV, but it beats the alternative.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Well I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how big does a breather need to be that's why I was asking about others breathers and pictures, I tried a super free flowing breather recommended by Wagner and it didn't help, the holes are an inch with the gromet so whatever that flows is all I can do so do people drill their valve cover holes bigger? And Wagner said only if I opened the valve up to much is where I would need the can, correct me but a catch can isn't going to reduce pressure right? Also I see all these motors on Butler's site gallery and most have regular breathers like I just tried even 600 hp motors I guess some do run a vacuum pump but not most, mine might have 500hp with lower compression. We'll see if my latest modification and valve tuning helped any and if not I'll try a run without them but I think I'm close.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Look here! You can see that Im literally using copper pipe and the thing that catches hair in your drain.








Phase Separation Example - Edelbrock AVS2


Been dialing in my 67's timing and carb. As many of you know, I adore the Edelbrock AVS2 for its simplicity and ease of tuning... which has no relevance other than to illustrate Phase Separation in gasoline. As is my experience, old skool gasoline and water do not mix, alcohol and water do, as...




www.gtoforum.com


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

The catch can does not reduce pressure but opening up the Wagner does and that pulls more vapor and crud out, that is why the catch can is needed. You have a big engine so you need good evacuation…I think a catch can on a baffled hole and two good breathers should do it


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> Well I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how big does a breather need to be that's why I was asking about others breathers and pictures, I tried a super free flowing breather recommended by Wagner and it didn't help, the holes are an inch with the gromet so whatever that flows is all I can do so do people drill their valve cover holes bigger? And Wagner said only if I opened the valve up to much is where I would need the can, correct me but a catch can isn't going to reduce pressure right? Also I see all these motors on Butler's site gallery and most have regular breathers like I just tried even 600 hp motors I guess some do run a vacuum pump but not most, mine might have 500hp with lower compression. We'll see if my latest modification and valve tuning helped any and if not I'll try a run without them but I think I'm close.


I suspect that the reason your breathers seem too small, is because your valve isnt opened enough. Your original breathers were likely adequate to do the job, but because you had the valve set wrong, you were leaving excess pressure in the crankcase, which made itself known at WOT.

As I said above, the test itself couldve been done twice, in the time it took me to type this.

This is why PJ got frustrated a few weeks back. Finding answers can be hard, but in this case, the answers are right in front of you. Your asking us for advice, were giving it, you have to try taking it.

Otherwise, you need to hand the matter over to Wagner or a pro shop, and then trust their work. As it sits, you're getting advice in too many places and your simply complicating your problem.

Its also worth noting that many others will eventually find this thread and come here looking for solutions. Keeping things straight forward will help them to quickly solve their own problems. If you try our suggestuions and they don't work, then maybe we'll all learn something new about PCV systems...


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Again I appreciate all the help immensely but idk if I didn't state things correctly in all the threads or they were misread but I did have the valve set correctly like the Wagner instructions and per my phone conversations with them then I tweaked it open more like suggested here then ran it in the fixed orifice position like suggested by Wagner so now when that didn't work Wagner suggested to put it back to the normal setting so I did and now I've tweaked it open and we'll see how that goes with more of my breather modifications, so I am following the advice of people smarter than me on this with all do respect


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Your original breathers were too restrictive, and by the time you opened them, I thought you had changes modes on the Wagner?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Tell you the truth I can't remember either and I didn't document those changes just my timing and carb changes


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

That's why I think you should run those quick tests that I mentioned!


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

Baaad65 said:


> Tell you the truth I can't remember either and I didn't document those changes just my timing and carb changes


I bought myself a couple of rain proof notebooks that fit inside the console. I can write down and track my changes to timing and jets, as well as which fuel addtive I used last time, etc etc.

I'm generally not a well organized person, but this helps me not to overlook how my changes are impacting performance and prevents me from "going backwards" sometimes.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

michaelfind said:


> I bought myself a couple of rain proof notebooks that fit inside the console. I can write down and track my changes to timing and jets, as well as which fuel addtive I used last time, etc etc.
> 
> I'm generally not a well organized person, but this helps me not to overlook how my changes are impacting performance and prevents me from "going backwards" sometimes.


If you're working on a carb or dizzy, it's critical to keep notes. I also keep log books for idle mixture, needles, pilots, air valve adjustment, choke, springs, vacuum, mains, base timing, advance springs, centrifugal bushings, etc. It helps me to make sense of it all. Heck, after a while, I actually understand what Im doing.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Yes, I keep those records too. Can look at them and know what the current idle air bleeds are or PVCR or jets or whatever.

wheneverI curve a distributor for someone, I write down all the information, Centrifigal total, where to set base, vacumn total, vac specs on rate and info on all in, plus the curve at various RPM’s readings. I attach that by wire and tag to the dizzy and also write it on some graph paper for the guys to keep. Some guys keep it and some guys lose it, but easier to keep it as you can glance at it down the road in months or years and see where you were set and if you had changes or you want to make some.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Ok army tried your experiment, so first took it for a couple wot blasts through the gears with my re drilled again breathers valve at 2.5 turns out stick stayed in, did a couple more went got gas did a couple more got home the stick is popped out about 3/4" so took the breathers out left the gromets tied some rags around the areas not blocking the openings took it out for five or six blasts get home...the stick is popped the same amount ! Good news there was hardly any oil anywhere and that's without baffles, also I pinched the dipstick collar a little so it was a little tighter..so what's next professor?


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Quit worrying about it so much, sounds great. Put the breathers back on and maybe the pinch will keep it in. Maybe another pinch. But it sounds where it should be.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> Ok army tried your experiment, so first took it for a couple wot blasts through the gears with my re drilled again breathers valve at 2.5 turns out stick stayed in, did a couple more went got gas did a couple more got home the stick is popped out about 3/4" so took the breathers out left the gromets tied some rags around the areas not blocking the openings took it out for five or six blasts get home...the stick is popped the same amount ! Good news there was hardly any oil anywhere and that's without baffles, also I pinched the dipstick collar a little so it was a little tighter..so what's next professor?



Would be a real shame if the dipstick was popping up because it was hitting the crank throw or oil was slamming into it. If you have a spare dipstick, maybe cut it real short and then insert it to see if there is still enough pressure to pop it up, Yes, sounds like a stupid idea, but who knows at this point.

The other thing might be to pressure test each cylinder, not a leak down test. If you have a compressor you can buy an air chuck that will screw into the spark plug hole. I would positions the piston at TDC and pressurize with about 100 PSI and listen for any air flowing/whistling coming out your breathers which means air is going past the rings. Do the same thing with the piston at BDC and listen for air. Do each cylinder this way and maybe you will find 1 cylinder that is allowing a good amount of air past it. You can also do a leak-down test of each cylinder, but this will require a leak-down tester.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Lemans guy said:


> Quit worrying about it so much, sounds great. Put the breathers back on and maybe the pinch will keep it in. Maybe another pinch. But it sounds where it should be.


Well I would except whenever I get on it hard and the stick pops out I get oil all over so something isn't right and I like things right and not making a mess.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> Would be a real shame if the dipstick was popping up because it was hitting the crank throw or oil was slamming into it. If you have a spare dipstick, maybe cut it real short and then insert it to see if there is still enough pressure to pop it up, Yes, sounds like a stupid idea, but who knows at this point.
> 
> The other thing might be to pressure test each cylinder, not a leak down test. If you have a compressor you can buy an air chuck that will screw into the spark plug hole. I would positions the piston at TDC and pressurize with about 100 PSI and listen for any air flowing/whistling coming out your breathers which means air is going past the rings. Do the same thing with the piston at BDC and listen for air. Do each cylinder this way and maybe you will find 1 cylinder that is allowing a good amount of air past it. You can also do a leak-down test of each cylinder, but this will require a leak-down tester.


Good ideas, like I said I replaced the dipstick with a chrome one for that engine but not the tube, if it's hitting the crankshaft wouldn't I feel it if I touched it while idling and it only seems to pop under wot.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

...just checked the end of the stick and it looks brand new not scratches no chrome missing perfect...guess I'll put my spring back on and hopefully I don't lose a seal because I'm tired of this as much as everyone is of hearing about it.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> Good ideas, like I said I replaced the dipstick with a chrome one for that engine but not the tube, if it's hitting the crankshaft wouldn't I feel it if I touched it while idling and it only seems to pop under wot.



Ya, I would think so, but at this point, why not give it a try for shits & giggles. Believe it or not, when I rebuilt my 400CI it did not have the short section of tube inside the engine, just the external dipstick tube - that is the way it was when I bought it and did not know any different. Used a chrome dipstick myself. Stuck it in. Later when I went to check oil levels, the end of the stick just below the "Full" mark was missing - snapped clean off by the crank. Luckily no damages and I pulled the broke end out through the oil drain hole on my next oil change. So I used my stock dipstick to check my oil and then put the chrome one back on because it cleared the crank. LOL


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

I see oil shooting everywhere. That’s pressure, and you have a new tight engine so some more breakin may alleviate it some. Try PJ’s idea, like he said why not test it? Always good to gain more information.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

It's better than it was when I first noticed, first time it was dripping off the firewall and frame, I thought I sprung a leak now since lowering the level just below full and the breather work and new pcv it just spits a little on the manifold and wires. I'll look into the compression test and in the meantime find a way to hold the stick down. So is this a common problem because I've never heard anyone talk about it and I see a lot of big hp motors with small breathers.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Personally, I think that your new healthy engine is contributing to it all, which is good. Your issue is exactly as mine... A small pinch on the tube and all-but-wide-open breathers is what did it for me.

As for your engine, as PJ would say... seat of the pants is the only test you need. Does your car lay down the law? If so, accept that it the cost of doing business... to have a bit of oil here and there. If not, then run all of your engine tests.

Above all else, remember that this is NORMAL! Harley became the most popular motorcycles in history, all while leaking oil over the place, for the last 100 years... Muncies and every GM engine up until the LS, wernt far behind.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Ok I guess, so that means just about every hi performance Pontiac pops there dipstick ?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I think you're overlooking at least 20 other areas where oil/ pressure can vent. I'm sure youve heard that things take the path of least resistance? So we can assume that your dipstick is the path of least resistance. For the other 180,000,000 people with this issue, it's a cork valve cover gasket or a intake gasket. I don't think that I've seen a SBC without a leak at the rear manifold gasket, in over 35 years of working on them.

The thing is, most people think that oil leaks are due to old or poorly installed gaskets. You can replace and seal until the cows come home, but pressure is gonna go somewhere. 

Do all HP Pontiacs have popping dipsticks? I doubt it. Do most have an oil leak? I'll bet they do... that is of course, unless they have a well designed PCV system.

I can tell you, I was in no hurry to spend 3 weeks and $400 making a PCV setup for my car. As LG said, how broken in is your engine?


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Yes lot’s of engine have leaks and oil out the breathers and leaky rear main seals and pop up dip sticks etc,…just walk around the cruise in and talk with guys, some wipe em off before the show, oil near the breathers is real common. I think you have done what you can. It may settle down with a little more break in.


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