# Pontiac 400 build, looking for cam suggestions



## Crzybone (Apr 9, 2011)

I'm far from being a mechanic but I like to tinker. My racecar engine builder neighbor helps me along the way and answers my millions of questions, but he's a Chevy guy and his knowledge of Pontiacs is extremely limited.

I've recently purchased a 400 from a guy who started his 64 gto project but never finished. Motor is a WT block from a 70 GTO, the bottom end was bored .030 over, honed, and balanced by a well known local machine shop. Deck has been zeroed. It has sat (bagged) never installed for almost 10 years, looks like it just rolled out of the machine shop. Stock crank and rods with forged Sealed Power L2262 Pistons (flat, 6.7cc relief). I need help deciding which cam to go with. I plan to have the same local shop completely tear down, inspect, lube, and re-assemble then dyno the motor once I have all the pieces.

This is what I'm looking at to complete this build:
*Edelbrock Performer 72cc* heads worked by Butler (Ported to 290 CFM, surfaced, w/ Ferrea Stainless Steel Valves, 3 angle 45 degree valve job, Performance Valve Springs (they'll be matched to whichever cam I choose), Chromoly Locks, Retainers, Locators & Viton Valve Stem Seals, opened up for 1.65 Harland Sharp roller rockers w/ ARP Rocker Studs & Guide Plates)
*Edelbrock Performer RPM intake* port matched by Butler to the heads
*FAST XFI Sportsman EFI complete system* 2.0 ECU, 2.0 throttle body with 2 bar Map sensor (2 bar just in case I do a low compression rebuild later and decide to add a little boost...), supposed to support up to 1000 hp
*Hooker Super Comps* to x-pipe with Flowmaster Super 40's (or something similar).

This will leave me at roughly a 10.5:1 compression ratio which should be pump gas friendly with the FAST XFI system and aluminum heads. I have a muncie M20 going in behind it with a Centerforce dual friction clutch. The rear end gears haven't been decided just yet, but I'm looking for something mean in the street but still capable of comfortably driving 2.5 hours to Daytona if need be. 

As far as a cam, I'd like to get something that works well with pump gas, has a slightly aggressive idle (but no too insane) and will hit the lower RPM's for that seat of the pants feel. Butler suggested the Lunati 20510711 Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 270/278
Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 219/227
Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .515/.530
LSA/ICL: 112/106 
But I'm wondering what other options would be a good fit for my setup? Is that Lunati the best choice or is there something better?

I know this build isn't going to break any records, but does anyone have any educated guesstimates as to what sort of torq/hp numbers this motor might show?


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## Crzybone (Apr 9, 2011)

Couple pics of my car for good measure:


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## oldskool (Apr 26, 2015)

Cam opinions are always a new can of worms. Everybody has their own idea of what would be best. So, I'll just throw in a few options.

If you decide to stay with a HFT cam instead of a roller, the Summit 2802 might be hard to beat. It's similar to a Pontiac "744" RA3 stick cam, but with more lift. It's also probably the cheapest cam you'll find. 

Summit Racing® Classic Camshafts SUM-2802 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing

If you want just a bit more, but don't like the "tick" of Rhoads lifters, you might like the Howard's version of a RA4 cam. It has less advertised dur, therefore should idle a bit smoother and have a bit more vac.

Howards Cams Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshafts 410051-14 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing

If you want just a bit less, the Crower 60242 or 60916 might work. The specs look real similar.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/c...1LzQrxBli19hUI6c17j7vE1unYaLEBp_maBoCtwjw_wcB

http://www.cnc-motorsports.com/crower-60242-hydraulic-flat-tappet-camshaft.html

http://ronspontiacpage.com/reference-pages/crower.htm

Obviously the 2 Crowers I listed will have more low end & a smoother idle, while the Howard's will have the most top end. At least that's how it looks on paper. But I don't know of any dyno tests which prove it. 

If you don't like Rhoads lifters, most recommend the Hylift Johnson 951R lifters. They are said to be the highest quality USA made lifters. Rhoads are modified Hylift Johnson lifters. There are some Pontiac shops that sell the Hylift Johnsons. 

http://hylift.clickdriver.co/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/HyLift-Johnson-Lifter-Catalog_2014.pdf

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5510977&postcount=5

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5480565&postcount=1

Here's a Pontiac shop that sells the Hylift Johnson lifters.

https://www.facebook.com/PaulKnippensMuscleMotors/

I've also read that Butler now sells 'em.

http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/products/valveTrain/Lifters.htm


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## Crzybone (Apr 9, 2011)

Thank you. And man I know what you mean about the can of worms. There are several thousand posts across the Pontiac forums about 400 cam selection, my head is spinning. I like the idea of the hydraulic roller, but trying to figure out which one is best.

I found this worksheet on cam selection (http://www.pontiacstreetperformance.com/psp/camselect.html#minimum), the specs for the Lunati are right where I'm looking to be (street strip/weekend performer).


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## oldskool (Apr 26, 2015)

"...I like the idea of the hydraulic roller, but trying to figure out which one is best."

Hey, if you can afford the roller set-up, go for it ! It has all sorts of advantages over a HFT. 

They make small rollers that will work great in a street/strip 400. 

You will probably come out better having a roller custom ground, for your app. With just a quick online search, the best lookin cam I've seen is this Crane. But, the price is ridiculous. :eek2: You can get a custom grind cheaper. 

Crane Hydraulic Roller Camshafts 289611 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing

I'd guess that a duration of somewhere around 215-220 @ .050 on the intake, with about 8-10 more on the exhaust, with a 112 LSA, would be good ballpark specs, for your app. Probably don't need 1.65 rockers, with a roller. :nonod:

The Voodoo cam Butler suggested, looks to be in the ballpark. Might be hard to beat. 

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=3209

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/lun-20510711

Here's a couple of 4/7 swap Howards that look pretty good. I assume that if you don't want a 4/7 swap, they could grind it with the stock firing order and change the LSA to 112. Most cam grinders will grind 'em just about any way you want 'em.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-414645-10/overview/make/pontiac

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-414145-10/overview/make/pontiac

Here's some Ultradyne lobes which Bullet Cams can grind on a Pontiac hyd roller.

Lobe- Adv @.050- 1.5-- 1.65
HR7-- 276- 210- 0.492- 0.525 
HR8-- 284- 218- 0.492- 0.525 
HR17- 292- 226- 0.492- 0.525 
HR27- 271- 217- 0.516- 0.550 
HR26- 275- 221- 0.516- 0.550 
HR25- 279- 225- 0.516- 0.550 
HR24- 268- 214- 0.530- 0.565 
HR23- 272- 218- 0.530- 0.565 
HR22- 276- 222- 0.530- 0.565 
HR11- 280- 226- 0.530- 0.565 
HR14- 284- 230- 0.530- 0.565

http://www.bulletcams.com/Masters/ultradynemasters.html

And if you wanna dial it in even closer, check out this list of Bullet hyd roller master lobes. You can just about have anything you could possibly need. Check out the 216-220 lobes for intake possibilities, and the 224-228 lobes for exhaust possibilities. And they'll grind 'em with any LSA you want.

http://www.bulletcams.com/Masters/HRlobes.htm


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

:thumbsup:


oldskool said:


> "...I like the idea of the hydraulic roller, but trying to figure out which one is best."
> 
> Hey, if you can afford the roller set-up, go for it ! It has all sorts of advantages over a HFT.
> 
> They make small rollers that will work great in a street/strip 400.


I agree with this post. :smile2:

OP that GTO looks absolutely amazing. I love the subdued hue with the large wheels and redlines. Usually not a fan of big dia. wheels on vintage GTO's but yours is done right. :thumbsup:


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## Crzybone (Apr 9, 2011)

Thanks ALKYGTO. I think I might still drop the rear just a little, but that will come after this motor build.


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## Crzybone (Apr 9, 2011)

Thanks oldskool!


oldskool said:


> Probably don't need 1.65 rockers, with a roller. :nonod:


Can you elaborate, should I not install them with this setup? I'm still learning all the ins and outs of the valvetrain world, bear with me here. The reason I'm asking is because I already have a set of new 1.65's that came with the rebuilt bottom end I purchased. It's literally the only part of the top end I have at the moment, everything else will be ordered this coming week.


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## MITYGTO (Jun 10, 2011)

*400 Cam Selection*

Really need to know rear end gear ratio to make accurate suggestions keeping in mind you are using a WIDE RATIO trans. 2.54 first helps with higher gear ratios say up to 3.55. Goal is a cam that gives you a wide torque curve, otherwise when you shift gears you will drop too many revs and fall below peak torque. I would not pick a cam without knowing all gear ratios, tire diameters etc. Whatever the specs, hydraulic roller with standard ratio rockers would give you the best performance IMHO


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Excellent advice here. The rear gear and way the car will be driven have everything to do with camshaft choice. A stickshift car like this can 'get away' with more cam than an auto car. I like Oldskools choice of the Summit 2802....with this combo (CR) in a street car with a 3.36-3.90 gear, it would be just about perfect. A cam is the 'heart' of the engine. It really affects the way the end product runs. Good luck.


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## Crzybone (Apr 9, 2011)

Thanks guys for helping. 
My wheels are 28.7" tall and I think a 3.42 gear ratio fits right where I want to be. Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to be right in the sweet spot and wouldn't have me hating life if I were to take the car on a 2.5 hour trip. Overall, the car will be a weekend street warrior and may make a few trips to shows. Probably never see the track but I may want to school a few Hondas from light to light.
2 questions: 
1.) Would the cam butler suggested still be a good fit?
2.) Would I lose any performance by using the 1.65 roller rockers with that or any other roller cam setup?


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## MITYGTO (Jun 10, 2011)

*400 Cam Selection*

The 711 Lunati will indeed work well as it is designed for mid range torque, 1800 to 5800 power band. I suggest 1.5 rockers to maintain proper valve train geometry. The only advantage to 1.65 is when you upgrade to roller rockers maintaining the existing cam, otherwise get the additional lift when choosing the cam. Your heads as prepped will flow enough air to support a bigger cam, however that means adding power at the top end. Stock rods plus a Performer RPM intake lean towards a stock redline in my opinion. The 712 Lunati given your heads will definately make more power and still be streetable. I would then upgrade to a Torker intake and have your stock rods blueprinted adding ARP bolts. Definately have everything balanced. Comes down to how you will drive the car meaning what will your shift points normally be? You could always run my suggestions by Butler for confirmation.................


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## oldskool (Apr 26, 2015)

"...I would then upgrade to a Torker intake and have your stock rods blueprinted adding ARP bolts..."


I'll have to disagree on both counts. It has been proven that the original Torker intake is not good. And even if you meant a Torker 2, they are single plane, which will have less low end on a 400. Also will only accept a square bore carb. I'd recommend a 2-plane. If you use a Q-jet, the iron intake is a bit better than the Performer. But, the Performer will accept any carb. Most recommend either an RPM or, if you don't need a heat crossover, one of the Chinese 2-planes.

For $288, most consider the RPM 5140 forged rods, a much better choice than rebuilt cast rods.

SAE 5140 STOCK ROD

For $400, you can even have super strong H-beams.

SAE 4340 STEEL H-BEAM


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

+1, don't waste a dime on the stock rods.


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## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

These guys know their stuff crzybone no doubt. A call to Central Virgina Machine will be very imformative too.


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## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

ALKYGTO said:


> +1, don't waste a dime on the stock rods.


X2 , Eagles are relatively "cheap", and if you upgrade them to arp2000 bolts theyre bulletproof for any street application.


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## oldskool (Apr 26, 2015)

"...Eagles are relatively "cheap", and if you upgrade them to arp2000 bolts theyre bulletproof for any street application."


If you have plenty of $$ to spend, you can step up to Eagles with ARP2000 bolts. But, unless you are building a high power, high rpm engine, those are overkill. 

The RPM H-beams, with the std bolts, are plenty strong enuff for most any reasonable Pontiac street/strip engine. They're $400 shipped.

The best price I can find for the Eagles, with 2000 bolts is about $550 + shipping. So, they cost roughly $175 more than the RPM's.

Eagle Specialty Products 6625P3D2000 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing

Eagle Connecting Rod Set - H-Beam - Rickspecd

http://www.sparktecmotorsports.com/..._hi0O6-7MfCKqdqM4HVXIu76e2_aWpmVg0aAu-v8P8HAQ

The Eagle site says these rods are good to 1300hp !  I think the RPM's are only good to about 800hp.  But, you can upgrade to the ARP2000 bolts for $60 extra. So, that makes the RPM's at least $100 cheaper, even with the 2000 bolts. And many Pontiac engine builders say the RPM rods are just as good as the Eagles. In fact, they are all probably forged at the same Chinese factory, then machined somewhere else.

Connecting-Rod Countdown - High Performance Pontiac Magazine

RPM also makes a 4340 I-beam rod. They are $476 with 8740 bolts & $60 more, with 2000 bolts.

http://www.racingpartsmaximum.com/sae4340ibeam-3.html

So, for between $288 & $600, you can buy forged rods that will build a mild street engine, or a 1000hp race engine.


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Hmmm....290 cfm ported round port Eheads on a 406(?) with a relatively small cam (though near .500 lift), then backed up by 3.42 gears with near 29" tall tires (effective gear ratio will be similar to 26" tall tires with a 3.08 gear). For optimum performance with those heads, would think a larger cam and much more gear would be a must, then for moderate highway driving, would need an OD transmission. 

Any flow figures of intake port flow at .100, .200, .300? Port volume of intake ports of heads?


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## Crzybone (Apr 9, 2011)

Pinion head said:


> Hmmm....290 cfm ported round port Eheads on a 406(?) with a relatively small cam (though near .500 lift), then backed up by 3.42 gears with near 29" tall tires (effective gear ratio will be similar to 26" tall tires with a 3.08 gear). For optimum performance with those heads, would think a larger cam and much more gear would be a must, then for moderate highway driving, would need an OD transmission.
> 
> Any flow figures of intake port flow at .100, .200, .300? Port volume of intake ports of heads?


I was looking at the D-ports, sorry if I said round ports. What gear ratio and cam would you suggest? I think an OD Trans will be beyond my budget for now, especially considering how much this motor is going to cost. But it's on the wish list. 

I believe port volume is 195cc intake and 145cc exhaust if that helps, don't have flow numbers yet.


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Crzybone, unfortunately don't have any feedback from customers or other Pontiac friends on the D port Edelbrocks to pass on a phone number or email address, so you can get more info from someone who has fitted the bill. 

On the round port Ehead builds have shipped out parts and built rearends for quite a few owners that have built 440-474 E head builds in their A and Fbodys. Only two I've had dealings with that went with 72cc performer rpm (round port) Eheads on their 3.75 stroke 400's. For one I built a HD 8.5 Abody rear with 3.90's, the car had an aftermarket TKO 5 speed with the optional .83 fifth gear. The cam in the initial build of that 400 was a solid, with advertised duration similar to the Wolverine "Jim Hand wagon" cam, but with a little more lift.


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## oldskool (Apr 26, 2015)

"..This is what I'm looking at to complete this build:
Edelbrock Performer 72cc heads worked by Butler..."


The Performer heads are the D-ports. But, unless you need to use the heat crossover, for cold weather driving, you can save a few hundred bucks, by going with a set of 74cc KRE out-of-the-box D-ports. These will flow plenty for a street 400. IMO

Kauffman Racing Equipment


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