# Please help decode 1964



## strangecustoms (Sep 3, 2017)

Lemans or GTO? Thank you!


----------



## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Whether a LeMans or GTO can't be 100% discerned from the cowl tag on a '64. Ton of fakes out there, as well cars with reproduced cowl tags. Even what appear to be original protect-o-plates have been faked.

Best solution is contact PHS, & if being represented as a really desirable example, have a true '64 restoration expert go over the car.

PHS Automotive Services, Inc.


----------



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

The data plate looks out of place, ie it is too clean and the rivets don't look right. I see that it has the "PO" which indicates which factory it was built at. I do not see the "5N" stamped on the data plate which it should have to be a GTO being built by the Pontiac plant. From an earlier post:

"(1964-65) One way to identify a GTO in these two years is by an accessory code on the data plate or also known as the body tag. *5N* code was used to show that the body had went through the conversion needed to convert the Le Mans to GTO. Only two plants used this code though. Pontiac (P, PO, PON) and Kansas City, MO. (K, KC, M, KAN)."

So, my opinion is it is not a GTO and I would be a little weary of the car. Not only would I get the PHS documents, I might run a VIN check through my local police department, and confirm the VIN matches the partial VIN number stamped on the frame. 

This may be of some help: Decoding the 1964 to 1974 GTO id 3136


----------



## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

*I actually think it looks ok. It is just really clean*

I feel like Johnny come lately. 

I looked at 5 different tags from cars coming out of pontiac. 1 of them is mine and I did get the PHS against the vin. Mine looks different from yours. Significantly different. 

5N missing does not mean the car is not a GTO. Things were done differently shift to shift and there was no consistent way they were stamped. 


whats on there says 
car built 5th week of March 1964
2 dr. Sport Coupe = 2237
Gulfstream Aqua upper and lower exterior =Q Q
black interior = 214 
option group 2 L= 4 speed floor shift, G= Console


To me the rivets look ok. I have seen them done like that before. 

The only and best definitive way to find out is to get the PHS. It will cost you like 100 bucks.


----------



## CPL (Feb 11, 2016)

Dose the phs docs give you the dates and build codes for the engine?
If so were is it in the docs?


----------



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

CPL said:


> Dose the phs docs give you the dates and build codes for the engine?
> If so were is it in the docs?


I am by no means a Data plate expert, but I have 3 books giving info on the Data plates for 1964 if this is any help. 

The "03E" indicates March, 5th week. Months run from 01-12, January to December. So this is an early build. You have "STYLE 64-2237" followed by "PO" (Pontiac, MI ass'y plant). The Data plate should have "STYLE 64-2237" followed by the word "BODY", and then the ass'y plant - which should be shown as "STYLE 64-2237 BODY PO." The following 4 digits are the body number used for in-plant sequencing. The words "BODY PAINT" do not show up along the right side of the Data plate on the '64 builds.

The next line on the '64 Data plate should read "TRIM xxx PAINT xx"

Third line is the accessories (ACC). According to the GTO Association of America GTO ID Guide, the Pontiac and Kansas City Fisher Body Assembly Plants used a 5-group code system. Fremont and Baltimore plants did not. Being a Pontiac plant (PO), you should see as an example a 5-group code like 1W-2P-4F-*5N*. This code only has 4-groups with nothing showing for group 3. The code most important is group code 5 followed by the letter "N" which is the letter code for the GTO group which I highlighted.

The Vin tag on your car should read 824P followed by a series of digits which are the sequential serial number given at the assembly plant. 8=eight cyl, 2=Lemans/GTO, 4= 1964, P=Pontiac, MI as the final assembly plant location.

The GTOAA book provides a list of "Factory-installed options" and for the GTO option it says "Sale Code No. 382, UPC Code No. W62, GTO Group(Lemans 27,37,67 only) $295.90." So you might look for these codes on the PHS documents?

For 1965, just to compare, I have 2 Data plates shown - Kansas City and Fremont. The date build codes are in the same position as '64. Next line down changes from "STYLE" to the 2-letters "ST". The following digits have been slightly changed: first 2 are the year, 65-, followed by the Car Division "2" for Pontiac, followed by the car Series "37" for Lemans, followed by the Body Style "37" for 2-door HT coupe. So the line for 1965 now reads, "ST 65-23737". In '64 the Lemans car Series was "22" and this was changed for '65 to "37". Following the ST number is KAN for Kansas City and then the body number for in-plant sequencing. On the Kansas plate, the "BODY PAINT" _is found_ on the right hand side just like your Data plate. Next line reads "TR" for trim rather then the full word as on the '64 plate. Interior codes follow "TR" and then on the same line is the paint codes for upper/lower body colors. The Kansas City plate does not have the "ACC." stamping, but still uses the 5-group code system with 5N for the GTO group. Assume Pontiac plant still used it as well as it notes the Baltimore/Fremont plants did not use the 5-group codes.

The 1965 Baltimore Data plate shown is similar to the '64 plate having no "Body Paint" on the right side of the plate, using "ST" and "TR" to replace the words "STYLE/TRIM", and uses the "ACC." line followed by xxxxx which may be a manifest number or UPC codes.

The "Factory-installed options" list the same codes for the GTO Group. A 1965 Pontiac Motor Division manifest is shown and under Block 38 is "1-2+2, 2-GTO", so assume if Block 38 has a number 2 in it, it would indicate the GTO option.

Looking online, I found 1 '64 GTO Data plate, Kansas City. It did have the "BODY PAINT" on the right side. What it also had was the words "STYLE & TRIM" vs "ST & TR" and the 5N GTO Group code. Also found a '64 Buick and it too had "STYLE & TRIM" spelled out.

So that said, it would appear that the 1964 Data plate has the words "STYLE & TRIM" spelled out and was changed to "ST & TR" for 1965. The 1964 Pontiac, MI Data plate does not have the "BODY PAINT" on the right side while Kansas City does. The 1964-65 Pontiac & Kansas plants used the 5-group code system that included the fifth group to be "5N" for the GTO Group option. The 1964 Data plate you provided a photo of does not conform to the 1964 Pontiac, MI Data plate identifying the car as GTO and the plate does not appear to be correctly stamped for a 1964 Data plate coming from the Pontiac, MI assembly plant.

And I may be 100% wrong on this, but using what info I have available, it is not looking good. So hopefully others will chime in to help and point out some other things to indicate otherwise and that the car is indeed a GTO. So I apologize to all if I am wrong in any of this, just trying to sort it all out. :thumbsup:


----------

