# Why won't my car run?



## 67TEMPtress (Oct 12, 2010)

OK. I've been having an ongoing issue with my 67. 
When I went to get it in San Diego, it started fine, ran fine except a couple times, under load, it would miss and stumble. I attributed it to month-old gas and needing a tune up. I replaced plugs and wires, it seemed to run fine.
Did the stumbling thing twice getting on the highway on the way to Washington but otherwise ran like a champ.
Got to Washington and the problem got exponentially worse, bad enough to cause backfiring and overall crappy running and getting hotter than usual. It would want to die down when I put it in gear, and almost die while idling. give it some gas and it took right off but wouldn't idle worth a damn.
Now it's to the point where most of the time I could go out there, it would start the first time, run crappy and eventually die, and not want to start again. Yesterday it wouldn't start at all. It will crank and crank, occasionally sound like it wants to start, when I stop cranking you can hear a little sound out the exhaust kind of like dieseling but not the same and very quiet. Not the same kind of hard starting you get with too much timing. Motor is a 73 400, doubt it's been bored over, mild mystery cam. Here's what I've done:

Compression = 160 on all 8
new cap, rotor, coil, module (stock GM HEI convert, VERY slight movement side to side with the shaft but pretty negligible)
Plugs and wires have about 1800 miles on them.
New Holley, fixed a vacuum leak at the base of the adaptor plate from when it had the Ebrock on it.
Replaced fuel filter and electric pump.
Eliminated the fuel system with a gas can, no improvement.
Replaced Ignition Switch. 
Tried a hot wire from the battery to the dizzy. Wouldn't start.

It's cold out, I live on a Navy base and I've been having health problems so this is really starting to get to me. I'm running out of ideas here, and I've had some really good help over the phone from one of the GTO guys in the area but he lives a couple hours away and he said it's getting to the point where he needs to have a look.
I really believe this problem is electrical in nature, but since I basically eliminated everything behind the firewall with the hot wire, it gets weirder by the minute. If I can get motivated to go out in the weather I'm going to try and figure out a way I can pull plugs and look for spark without an extra set of hands.
Is it a possibility that the internal wiring in the distributor has gone bad in some way and negated the new module, coil, etc?
Please help


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## AlaGreyGoat (Jul 6, 2006)

Sounds like a fuel problem to me.
With the engine getting hotter, it may be running lean.
Could be the carb or a bad vacuum leak.

Larry


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

AlaGreyGoat said:


> a bad vacuum leak.
> 
> Larry


:agree

Have you checked the vacuum advance for proper operation,


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Sounds like fuel starvation to me.......make sure you are getting constant spark ( pull a plug, leave the wire on, ground plug to side of head, have someone crank while you check for spark jump........I'll bet its a carb issue.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I have to say that to me, it sounds like ignition. You need to pull the coil wire and hold it about an inch from the coil tower and see if you get spark while someone cranks the engine over. Don't get shocked. It could be a bad pickup coil or module. A car needs ignition, fuel, and compression to run. And it needs the ignition to happen at the right time. You have compression. Check the ignition, and the fuel too. If you have ignition, try misting some carb cleaner down the carb while the engine is being cranked. If it starts, it's a fuel problem.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

67TEMPtress said:


> OK. I've been having an ongoing issue with my 67.
> When I went to get it in San Diego, it started fine, ran fine except a couple times, under load, it would miss and stumble. I attributed it to month-old gas and needing a tune up. I replaced plugs and wires, it seemed to run fine.
> Did the stumbling thing twice getting on the highway on the way to Washington but otherwise ran like a champ.


You may have multiple problems going on here. The above to me sounds like a fuel delivery problem, perhaps a clogged fuel filter, marginal pump, cracked/leaking fuel line that's letting it suck air, obstructed vapor return line that's working against the pump... something. Perhaps a bad vacuum leak (intake gasket, vacuum hose, ruptured vacuum modulator diaphragm on an auto trans - however the latter would also cause extremely "late" upshifts at part throttle).



> Got to Washington and the problem got exponentially worse, bad enough to cause backfiring and overall crappy running and getting hotter than usual. It would want to die down when I put it in gear, and almost die while idling. give it some gas and it took right off but wouldn't idle worth a damn.


That too sounds like a fuel problem - running way lean (vacuum leak?), or maybe ignition timing off. Problems at idle but running ok elsewhere could be sediment in the carb's idle circuits.



> Now it's to the point where most of the time I could go out there, it would start the first time, run crappy and eventually die, and not want to start again. Yesterday it wouldn't start at all. It will crank and crank,


That sounds "ignition-y" but...



> ... occasionally sound like it wants to start, when I stop cranking you can hear a little sound out the exhaust kind of like dieseling but not the same and very quiet. Not the same kind of hard starting you get with too much timing.


Sounds like fuel again - sometimes it can be tough to tell the difference between "not enough" and "too much". Also could be a marginal ignition system that's not putting out enough spark.

You need a methodical approach, eliminating one thing at a time. Easiest is to verify you've got spark. Pull a plug, connect the wire, ground the base of the plug to something and crank it over to see if you've got it. Might be a good idea to try it with several different ones just to find out if you've got some bad plug wires (it doesn't sound like it, but it never hurts to be sure).

Next is fuel -- you have an electric pump? Good -- "make it run" with the engine off, long enough to give the fuel bowls time to fill. Look down the carb throat while working the throttle --- you should see the acclerator pump(s) squirting fuel.

Another thing, since I think you said you're running a Holley now... did you also say it had been backfiring? Holley's are notorious for having their power valve diaphragms ruptured by a backfire. That'll make it run WAY rich, and correspondingly crappy...

Good luck!

Bear


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

spark+gas+compression= run

If you are not getting spark. Then like gtoguy said pick up coil. You have to pull the dizzy and take it apart. It is pretty easy. Just have brake cleaner around to get rid of the gunk on the dizzy shaft. So it will pull out of the housing easily. I have only had to brake clean a couple out of many.










If you are getting spark, then pour a small amount of gas through the carb past the throttle blades. If it fires up for a second then carb or fuel delivery is still an issue. Also make sure that the heat valve by the exhaust manifold is opening if you still have one.
like baer said power valve also.
If that stuff isn't trouble then I would do a leak down test on the engine and look over the intake for leaks on its seals and vacuum ports including the brake booster.


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

Also if you are getting spark look very closely at the color of the spark. If it is white to blue it is a very good spark. The more orangey red it gets the lower the volt and less likely to have enough to start the engine. So then it is the voltage to the coil is low or the coil is not producing enough voltage itself.


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## dimitri (Feb 13, 2009)

You can take your module to Napa and they will test it for free. If it is bad, replace it and the coil. You always replace them in pairs. There is also a pickup module that can go bad. Check this out it has all of the troubleshooting for the GM HEI. You might want to print it out. It is a lot to digest at first. Just go slowly one step at a time. 

Engine Performance and Tune-up

Good Luck


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## la_belle_fermier (Dec 28, 2010)

I had a similar problem with my 69 GTO.I had pulled the motor for a rear main seal and figured i would paint and rebuild my distributor with a petronix kit.I am glad i did since one of the pick up wires were ready to fall off.Any way i got the motor to fire up and timed and running pretty good.The next day i decide to go out for a drive and i get int the drive for about 20 minutes and when i slow dow at a light the car stalls i can only get the engine to run with my foot on the accelerator.After about 3 weeks of scratching head and a new carberator i change out the module with the original and the original condenser and it ran like a charm.My thoughts are a combination of problems.Check your module and don't be shy with the die electric grease and check your condensor make sure it is screwed tight.I may be wrong but maybe you could have damaged your carberator with the back fires.Just my 2 cents.


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## 1970 Lemans (Jul 25, 2009)

Given that it is a '67 this shouldn't be applicable, but given that you got the vehicle in CA I might ask if the car has been retro-fitted to include a charcoal cannister, an emissions related item. I believe they were only introduced in 1970 and later.

Some time back, my vehicle had symptoms not dissimilar from what you are citing. I thought it might have been a bad carb. I had an extra rebuilt one sitting around, so I just swapped it out and totally resolved the problem ... for a while. Then, the problems resurfaced. Turned out that the old original (33+yrs at that point) cannistor filter was degraded and allowing charcoal particles to get sucked into the carb intermitently.

If you don't have a charcoal cannister, then never mind. If you do, consider this as a potential source.


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

A none vented gas cap can cause trouble on some cars. With an electric fuel pump I would think it would cause it. Just saying


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

So I am reading up on E85 and link jumping around till I landed on this.


JasonK at said:


> E85, Ethanol Conversion - THE H.A.M.B.
> I had a '69 Old 98 Conv. I restored last year. After painting it I decided to fill it up at the Local Casey's Convenience Store. They sell that 15% Etho stuff. I was driving down the highway, and it died. I'm thinking what the hell. Luckily my brother was following me. It started back up I made it about another mile or so. We finally made it to the city I live in, but by then he was towing me. I could not get it to run very long, drove me nuts. New Filter, Fuel pump same problem. Rebuilt the Carb, same problem. By now I was ready to take the 44 to the car. My Brother was talking with a Mechanic. He said for me to blow through the fuel line with a air hose. He said that that Ethanol witll plug up the sock in the tank. Sure enough fixed it. Never did run another cocktail through that car.


I had no idea that they where selling this yet. It isn't in my neck of the woods. So did you happen to see if you filled that car with this 15% ethy gas?


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## freethinker (Nov 14, 2009)

i vote for replacing the ignition module in the hei dist. they have a nasty habit of failing. they are cheap and you should be able to replace it yourself.
if you kept your old one you could give it a try as a test.


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## freethinker (Nov 14, 2009)

likethat said:


> So I am reading up on E85 and link jumping around till I landed on this.
> 
> I had no idea that they where selling this yet. It isn't in my neck of the woods. So did you happen to see if you filled that car with this 15% ethy gas?


where i live most of the gas is ethanol blend. been running it for years with no problem as long as you dont let it sit for months at a time in the carb. the 70 gto i am restoring now will run on e85 this summer.


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## freethinker (Nov 14, 2009)

likethat said:


> A none vented gas cap can cause trouble on some cars. With an electric fuel pump I would think it would cause it. Just saying


not likely. a 66-67 wasnt a sealed system.


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## 67TEMPtress (Oct 12, 2010)

ooooooooook i guess i need to clarify some stuff, i wasnt very detailed in my first post so it makes sense theres a little confusion.

i have changed the module, and the coil. i took them both to automoan and the module checked out ok, the coil was on the very low side of functional. i thought certain a new coil would fix the problem, and i also went ahead and replaced the module, cap, and rotor. yes i used the grease for the module lol.
it did absolutely nothing to help the issue.

when i did the gas can test, i unhooked the line to the carb and ran the pump to see how it flowed, into a gallon gas can. no i didnt actually hook a gage up and measure the flow but i never had a problem with the pump before and i replaced it with one identical to the first. i filled the can, and noticed nothing out of the ordinary. i then hooked the line back up to the carb and disconnected the line behind the pump and the filter. put said line in gas can, started car. no change whatsoever. at all.

i have a locking gas cap. the guy i bought the car from said he put it on there when the gas prices went crazy and he had it sitting in his driveway. gas theft was a huge problem in san diego, probably everywhere, at that time. ive always used premium chevron fuel. if there isnt a chevron for miles and miles, i use shell...but 99% of the time i will go out of my way to go to chevron. i dont even know if they sell the e85 blend in california, oregon, or washington. never put much thought into it...

i work 14 hour shifts for a couple days in a row, then get a couple days off, etc. im going to brave the cold tomorrow and work on it some more since i have the time, and hopefully have some more detailed information for you guys. given its current location, im somewhat limited in what i can do to it (i.e. pull the timing cover, etc) so i may end up having it towed to my boss' house so i can actually work on it.

thanks everybody for your input, youve been really helpful


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## freethinker (Nov 14, 2009)

ok then test the spark. pull a wire and put an old spark plug in it and ground the plug. if you get spark then move on to fuel. if your carb is pumping fuel into the engine and you have spark and it wont start then move to timing issues. slim possibility of a timing chain slip but if it has a new cam that should be new.

how to check the dist timing if it wont start: set the crank timing indicator at 6 degrees btdc on the no.1 cylinder. loosen the dist. put an old spark plug in the no.1 wire and ground it. turn on the switch for power to the dist. rotate the dist by hand and you should hear it spark and see spark at no 1 wire. tighten the dist at the actual spot it sparks. that should have you within a couple degrees of perfect timing.


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

freethinker said:


> where i live most of the gas is ethanol blend. been running it for years with no problem as long as you dont let it sit for months at a time in the carb. the 70 gto i am restoring now will run on e85 this summer.


10% has been around here for decades. I just have never heard of 15% being sold. E85 is at about 20% of the stations around here also. I am looking more into doing the E85 for the 70 455HO I am putting in my 66gto hard top.

I had a 79 ford 4x4 that the PO put a "locking" gas cap on and ran like crap till I drilled holes in it. The vent tube for the tank on his tempest could have little animals (aka bugs) packing crap in it. 
But he used a gas can and that would have eliminated the cap.


Did you replace the pick up coil also with the distributor coil? 2 coils in total.


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## 67TEMPtress (Oct 12, 2010)

likethat said:


> I had a 79 ford 4x4 that the PO put a "locking" gas cap on and ran like crap till I drilled holes in it. The vent tube for the tank on his tempest could have little animals (aka bugs) packing crap in it.
> But he used a gas can and that would have eliminated the cap.
> 
> 
> Did you replace the pick up coil also with the distributor coil? 2 coils in total.


lol "he" is a "she"...but i get it, not a lot of chicks are infatuated with old pontiacs.

you know, i really do believe it is the pick up coil, i did a lot of research on that today on government time and it sounds EXACTLY like what happened to my ponchita...and dont tell anyone but the most "symptoms" related info i got related to that came from....a mustang forum  its the one thing i didnt replace in the distributor...

thank you my fellow Daytonian!


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

That is a cool pic of the GTO,, I need a good gold car pic, and that is it!! To bad that girl is standing in front of it, jk, but serious, I would love a pic of that car so I can mimmick my 66 after it. I really wish they had a hurst black/gold combo for the 66 like the 69 in the foreground, as that would be the perfect color combo with a gold interior, nice car.
Oh, and you can't get anyone to help you work on the car, doubt it..
My 2 cents are on a blown power valve or dripping carb. Car starts good because it needs extra fuel, then dies because it's flooding out. See if smoke comes out of the carb after it shuts off, evidence of dripping fuel. When it dies hold it to the floor and crank it, if it fires after about 5 secs it's flooded. Good luck!


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

Some one needs to be putting Hot in hotrod, Eric can't do it alone 

Women with old ponco's, driving big 4x4 trucks, or riding motorcycles, is a sweet deal!


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Temptress, you need to be aware that there are TWO "coils"---the the ignition coil (probably the one your changed) and the PICKUP coil, which is located on the distributor, and has two wires running to the Ign. module. A lot of times, the pickup coil wire(s) will break internally due to distrubutor advance movement over many years or miles (think bending a wire back and forth 'till it breaks). You need to verify if you have a fuel problem or a spark (ign.) problem. Until you do, you'll be chasing ghosts. I've been an auto tech for a long time now, and appreciate electronics and high tech, but I have to say, the original contact points distributors in both my GTO's never let me down (yet)!!! Good luck.


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## 646904GTO (Feb 10, 2008)

Is that you in the picture Kellyn? Do the spark test like we talked about. It could very well be the pickup coil that 'Likethat" suggested. We know its not fuel related. Mike


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## 67TEMPtress (Oct 12, 2010)

Mike! yep thats me at the socal goats show.

ok worst day ever. yes i have spark. i puttzed around with the poncho forever today, the weather was garbage, half the time when i lean in the car to work on it my feet come off the ground and i got hail down my pants, it was most uncool. i wanted to punch somebody in the face. i got it to start for a second and it backfired out the carb! ugh! i did the timing-chain-play test and it is super questionable so...im a bit timid to keep fooling with it for fear ill instigate a valve catastrophe. i also know a dude who has a camera he can stick in the spark plug hole and make sure i didnt wreck shop. im going to tow her over to my friends house on my day off and she and i are going to come to an understanding. i would tow it up there to you but the bill would be astronomical. its ok, ill be in everett for at least a year, its plenty of time for you to get tired of me.

jetstang, that hurst car was pretty cool...for some reason im thinking its a GP but maybe im wrong. the wheels were awful though, dont do gold wheels...its what we ladies refer to as a "faux pas."
the geeToh tiger is black n gold on the other side, its pretty sweet.
as far as not getting a lot of help...i subscribe to mikes (646904gto) texts and hotline, its only .99 a text and 3.99 a minute for technical assistance. i would highly recommend it to anyone. otherwise im stuck, most of the guys around here can barely figure out where the gas goes and usually come to me for help. scary!

geeteeohguy, youre right about that and i thank you very much. i checked those wires. some of the connections looked pretty rugged and i replaced that, and i was pretty happy because it improved the spark considerably. so here i am thinking i fixed it, and i didnt. proof i had/have more than one problem. as least we know if/when i fix it ill have good distribution of spark lol.

i have my E5 exam on the 10th so im not going to fight it this week, i have to keep my priorities in line for a little bit longer.

thanks so much guys, more to follow!!!


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## freethinker (Nov 14, 2009)

did you have the dist out? are you sure the timing is right?


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## 646904GTO (Feb 10, 2008)

Good Luck on the E5 Test! Still thinking the plugs are cold fouled, when you get the car over to the chief's house pull and clean them. It is a free test.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

No need to pay for advice! Many of us here are professional auto techs or at least professional grade. We greatly enjoy helping others who are as passionate about obsolete Pontiac iron as we are. I think I'm safe in saying that we're all out here to help. Good with the exam, and we'll get back to the car when you have the time. These cars are NOT high tech. It's something simple that's being overlooked.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

67TEMPtress said:


> :jetstang, that hurst car was pretty cool...for some reason im thinking its a GP but maybe im wrong. the wheels were awful though, dont do gold wheels...its what we ladies refer to as a "faux pas."
> the geeToh tiger is black n gold on the other side, its pretty sweet.


 It's a GTO, no GP in that pic. The gold rims are what made that car a hurst car, and are about $3000 a set. And I'm not going that far into cloaning, lol.. I like the race car paint though. I love the 69 black and gold, looks real sharp, may do a two tone on the 66.
As for your car, there are only so many problems you can have, as long as you didn't hurt the internals. If you have an HEI and it is good, you can hook a hot from the battery to the + coil on the Dist and the car should run. You can get a new dist on ebay for $60. Wish someone was close to you to help you out, good luck. Just because the carb is new, doesn't mean it didn't suck trash, do you have a good fuel filter on it?


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## 67TEMPtress (Oct 12, 2010)

Thanks Mike! Im tryin to get that $$$$...

geeteeohguy thank you, and i was just kidding about mikes tech line being 3.99 a minute. i get a lot of good help on here and you always respond to my ridiculous posts lol. thanks for your patience and ive been studying for a few months for this test so i better advance or ill be sooo mad. it will bring my poncho budget up to where i can actually start accomplishing some stuff 

jetstang...are you sure? *wink*


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)




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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

OK, I thought the convert was a 69 Goat, and didn't look again, I was thinking the 66 up front, and never gave that one another thought. Cool, nice GP, and very sharp..


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## 67TEMPtress (Oct 12, 2010)

It would have been cooler if it was a goat!


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

For me from 55 to 74 there isn't a bad looking pontiac.


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## 646904GTO (Feb 10, 2008)

geeteeohguy said:


> No need to pay for advice! Many of us here are professional auto techs or at least professional grade. We greatly enjoy helping others who are as passionate about obsolete Pontiac iron as we are. I think I'm safe in saying that we're all out here to help. Good with the exam, and we'll get back to the car when you have the time. These cars are NOT high tech. It's something simple that's being overlooked.


If she's paying me I haven't seen that steak dinner yet. lol:cheers


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

I didn't read all the posts on this thread....anyone think it could be a timing chain issue???? Eric:confused so hard to tell with out being there....


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## 646904GTO (Feb 10, 2008)

I have been working with her thru text and phone calls since he problems started. We live about 80 miles apart, but logistically much further. Since it was running and has deteriorated slowly to toward the no run issue. We worked through fuel, timing, vacuum leaks and electrical issues. She has found many issues that could or did contribute to the no run situation at hand now, including bad wires and suspect connections. As you state it is very hard to go further without actually seeing the car, and I agree it is probably something simple that is being overlooked. Kellyn knows this too. Once many years ago I had a similar problem on one of my many GTOs. By the time I had it all figured out, had compression, timing, spark fuel, everything that would make it go it still wouldn't start...replaced the spark plugs as a final guess, even though it seemed like they sparked just fine. The engine started up as if it ran everyday. Also let me absolutely clear on the paying for tech help subject, I never or would ever charge anybody for that. We help each other because we all share the same passion for these cars. As a matter of fact and Kellyn can agree, I have a '67 squarebore intake that she wants to buy and I offered it to her for $100, I thought that was a fair price until I saw them at a swap meet about a week later for $50, so I told her that I could not sell it to her for more than $50. BTW We have never met either. Thats my story and I'm stickin' to it. :seeya:


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

My buddy is a very good mechanic, and has a 60 Caddy for the wife. It ran bad. He swapped dist cap, rebuilt, then replaced carb-edelbrock, installed Protronix ignition. Ran fine, got hot and started popping and spitting. After replacing everything, checked his newer 8.8 accel plug wires, found 1 wire dead. Cut it in 6" sections, all sections, no continuity. It would run fine when cold, or not under load, but would spark scatter when under load.. Just a thought..


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

Eric Animal said:


> I didn't read all the posts on this thread....anyone think it could be a timing chain issue???? Eric:confused so hard to tell with out being there....


thats what it sounds like to me. skipped a tooth to begin with then maybe another or two.


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