# Sticky  LS Swap to Early GTO - MY OPINION



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

This is my opinion, and just my opinion, in response to those who have done or are thinking of doing the modern day Chevy LS series small block engine swap into the first generation GTO "A-Body.":banghead: Being 55 years of age, I did not experience the "muscle car era" as it unfolded, but rather, reaped the benifits following that era in the late 1970's and early 1980's when these cars were somewhat worn out and abused, gas prices were going up, and they sold for cheap if they had not already been scrapped out. Pontiacs, and later the GTO, was my car of choice.:thumbsup:
The hi-performance car was not invented by Pontiac nor its engineers as they have always been around. When the first GTO was introduced as an option on the Lemans, it was innovative. But this innovation was more about creating a meaning for the GTO than the GTO itself. It was the advertising and marketing genius of Jim Wangers who took his vision of a "super car" and created that meaning. It was then Pontiac chief engineer John DeLorean who turned out the GTO based on a concept with no guarantees that this concept was going to work in practice. 
The first 1964 GTO was built around the horsepower and torque of the Pontiac 389 engine. The engineers knew that this casting had the potential to be enlarged to 400, 421, 428, and 455 cubic inches. This engine, with its assorted horsepower and torque ratings was the GTO. Even those who were not GTO savvy knew enough to ask, 389 or 400?
The GTO was an icon of the muscle car era that needed no introduction as it brought to mind the vivid image of horsepower & speed. It is said that a picture is worth a thousand words and with the sight of a GTO, there were not only words, but also, an excitement of the senses as you listened to the rumble of the dual exhaust either at idle or rowing through the gears.
Being fortunate enough to own several GTO's and other Pontiac cars of that era, it was all about horsepower and the Pontiac engine under the hood. The factory engine on the street really did not need a lot of tweaking as there was never any problems putting down rubber or taking on a would be challenger in his Chevelle, Ford, Mopar, or AMC. One might simply fine tune the engine or add a tri-power, a Torker intake, a Holley carb, Mallory dual points, or headers to root out a few more horsepower without going into the engine. These add-ons seemed to work if one was so inclined. Money back then was as tight as it is today and parts that were seemingly cheap by todays standards were expensive. So the factory engine with all its factory horsepower and torque made the GTO desirable when matched against the more readily available small blocks installed in the "other" makes. Big blocks were not all that common with the exception of the Road Runners or Chargers and their 383's.
Fast forward to today and we have seen the recent introduction of the second generation Holden GTO and its corporate small block Chevy LS series engines. Once again, the image of the GTO is built around the engine, but the first generation GTO with its legendary Pontiac manufactured engine is not the same as the second generation GTO and its Chevy engine. It is the old apples and oranges comparison when viewing the old GTO with the new GTO......only the name is the same.:wink2:
As of late, the term "resto-mod" seems to have incorporated the approval of installing the later model LS Chevy small block engines into the engine bay of the earlier GTO. This is where I draw the line. I just want to snatch those GTO keys out of your hands, and tell you that you're just not yet responsible enough to own that GTO.:nono: There is a reverence unspoken that simply "is" and words cannot express. Either you get it, or you don't. Maybe its simply because I was there, because I lived through that tail-end of the muscle car era.:smile2:
As stated earlier, the GTO was built around the performance of the Pontiac engine. Chevy engines were installed in Canadian built Pontiacs and were given a completely different name, Beaumont. If you want to install an LS engine in your GTO, then buy a Canadian Beaumont. Unbelievably, I am even ok with the LS swap in a Lemans or Tempest, but not a GTO.:nonod: Would you install the Chevy LS engine in a Boss Mustang, Hemi Cuda, Buick GSX, Olds 442, or AMX? Install one in a Road Runner and pop the hood at a car show and let's see what kind of reactions you get.:eek2: The only reason anyone thinks it is cool is because they would not know the difference between a Model A engine and a Pontiac engine anyway. They simply think that all the chrome, polished aluminum, braided steel lines, and multi-colored do-dads is what its all about. But those of us who know our Pontiacs, shudder with agony and outstretch our arms to the heavens and shout out "why?":cryin:
I don't have a problem when it comes to body modifications, brake and suspension upgrades, transmission swaps, 18" rims, or interior changes. I'm even good with modifying the Pontiac engine anyway you like, old school or with contemporary electronics and fuel injection:bannana:.......but a GTO has to have a Pontiac block using factory or aftermarket fitted Pontiac parts -no exceptions.
So if you ask me what I think of the Chevy LS small block swap in a first generation GTO, you will probably watch my nostrils flare out, my face contort and redden, my body twitch, and hear the soliloquy of a few choice words escape my vocal chords that will inevitably let you know of my disapproval. And you won't hear me weenie out and say, "well its your car and you can build it any way you want." If it's a muscle car era GTO, it's gotta be Pontiac powered..........or just give me the keys. Pontiac built excitement, not Chevy powered muscle car era GTO's.:nonod:


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## SANDU002 (Oct 13, 2004)

If you have a 64-74 GTO that is numbers matching or restored back to spec with the correct engine, I would agree.
Technically the LSx motors are GM not Chevy. These motors will fit a GTO, Camaro, G8 or Corvette and produce the same power/torque with only minor differences.
I see a lot of first gen goats being redone into pro touring and resto mod because it is cheaper to do and more dependable. Don't get me wrong, I love first gen power plants and that "old school" muscle. It all depends on the condition of the car when purchased and the plan to put it on the road.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Jim I agree wholeheartedly with 99% of what you said there. Except the part about putting an ls in a LeMans or Tempest. Pontiac is Pontiac ... Firebird or Grand Prix or LeMans or Bonne ... They all deserve the heart of a poncho. I will also take to task the belief that a classic drivetrain "all Pontiac" can't be reliable or or isn't reliable simply because newer tech is easier. A well maintained Pontiac engine will run for 100 thousand miles without incident. More if let it. The availability of foreign model cars got this country into a very lazy mindset. Drive it and dispose of it is a lot easier than owning loving and respecting your ride. Pontiac is about an emotional connection to your car. A connection to the road. Its a member of the family and part of the event, the vacation, the weekend cruise, the movie night, what have you. I have owned an ls gto, and no it ain't the same. It's a nice sporty comfortable car. But its not a goat. So Jim I stand with you against anyone who thinks a Chevy sb or ls or anything other than a poncho belonging under the hood of a classic Pontiac.


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## crustysack (Oct 5, 2008)

Opinions -every ones got em
heres mine
GM=Pontiac
GM=LSx
Pontiac+LSx=awesome ride
also I hate red cars, nothing personal to anyone who likes that color, just my opinion.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

I have always felt that the whole point of the hot rod culture was to put a more modern drive train into an older car. I am only 38 so I am much younger than most that own these classic era Pontiacs, but I have always loved the hot rod scene. Back in the day you would buy an old model T and swap in a flat head V8 and have instant hot rod. The resto mods that are being built today are based on the same idea and I personally love seeing them. One of the coolest cars I have seen at a local cruise night was a 37 Plymouth with a in-line six turbo engine out of a Datsun. You can't tell me that isn't cool. I look at the LS swaps the same way. The only thing I can't figure out is why someone would go through the hassle of doing such a swap and then run a carb. To me it defeats the purpose.

I don't think that the typical LS swap is done on an all matching high dollar GTO (or Chevelle SS, or 442, or GS, etc). I think it's typically done as part of a restoration on a car of questionable pedigree or a clone project. To me, no harm no foul. Build what you want. I think what the older crowd doesn't get is these resto mods (and to a greater extent the tuner cars) are what will keep the car culture alive into the future.

So crustysack, love your LS swap, don't agree with you about red cars. My car was originally green so I look at the red as a vast improvement!


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## crustysack (Oct 5, 2008)

Thats the point about my opinion on color- no one has to agree with me. I dont get a contorted face:crazy: or flare my nostrils:mad2: when any red car goes by- I just dont like the color- dont really like cats eeved:either,or brussel sprouts :smash:, or sweet potatoes :nono:,or Justin Bieber but I know a lot of people who do and I dont hate :boxing_smileyn them because they like other things than me.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I get it. Key word is "cheap." The LS series small block is an extension of the Chevy small block and if you want to somehow tie the word "corporate GM engine" to it and believe it isn't a Chevy......that's OK. The Pontiac division made heads to slap on a big block Chevy that had "Pontiac" logo on them and this somehow made it a Pontiac engine. If you want to believe your Big Block Chevy is a Pontiac with the addition of these heads.....then you are too young to appreciate or know what a true Pontiac engine is all about -but you can if you keep with the factory Pontiac engine family. The "Pontiac" Solstice used an Opel engine. I don't consider that much in line with a Pontiac product.

The term "hot rod" is generally referred to those modified cars of the 1950's and earlier, with most being of the 1920-1940's body styles. The aim was of course to increase speed and performance through engine hop-up goodies or larger more powerful engines that replaced the low powered stock drivetrains -and body mods.:thumbsup: Auto manufacturers jumped on the band wagon in the mid-fifties by adding performance goodies to the engines like dual quads(Chevy,Caddy,Packard,Pontiac), tri-power(Pontiac,Caddy,Olds), fuel injection(Chevy,Pontiac), and superchargers (Studebaker-remember those?). This was the beginning of the high-performance factory "hot-rod." I don't classify what is termed a "muscle car" as a "hot-rod" even if you stick some other engine in it -it will always be a "muscle car" as it represents a time/niche in _history_ when such powerful and aggressive cars were cranked right off the production line. To defend your position and reclassify a GTO "muscle car" as a "hot-rod" or slip in that ever current "resto-mod" term because one installed a Chevy LS engine into it would be like taking a 1937 Harley Davidson and restoring it with a Yamaha engine because it was cheaper, more reliable, far more faster, and parts are available.:banghead: That poor Harley would never be a "hot-rod" or "resto-mod" no matter how convinced you were. That classic Harley would simply be ruined.:frown2:

Yes, to build a Pontiac engine can indeed be pricey IF you want to make horsepower far above the factory numbers, but then again, have you ever had the experience of hammering on a 360HP 400CI 4-speed GTO?:thumbsup: Have you ever heard the deep drone of the big secondaries popping open on a Q-jet that had an open element air cleaner or the factory top lid reversed? (best done in a nice long tunnel for effect!:bigSmile Have you ever experienced dropping that His&Hers automatic stick into the manual quadrant and going through the gears to hear that chirp of tire rubber as the TH-400 snapped from first to second on your command?:thumbsup: Try running around town with the hood removed so all can see those "this Pontiac mean business" shiny chrome air cleaners on your tri-power and those chrome valve covers.:thumbsup: The factory GTO engine IS fast.

Now once you feel that the factory 350-360HP isn't enough and you get swept into the dream that somehow you won't be satisfied with those numbers and you need at least 450-550HP, then your budget will begin to soar out of sight. Now we are talking expensive and I would venture to say that even producing those HP numbers from a Chevy small block would also be just as pricey. So now when I begin to look at the apples and oranges comparison, the factory Pontiac engine installation doesn't look so unreasonable.:smile2:

I fear that some would think taking the supercharged straight-eight out of a Duesenburg and swapping in an LS small block would be cool.:nono:


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## maktope (May 22, 2013)

My two cents. I have a resto/mod. Or half way done with one depends on how you see it. I dropped a 428 and I have the fuel injection kit to swap out. Thought long and hard about what motor to put in. And still might pull the trigger on a supercharged lsx my buddy has. It's a tough call but I understand your point about pontiac power pontiac car. That's why I stayed with the 428. I didn't put a 455 in because one model year from mine came with the 455. I am 33 I grew up in mid Michigan when they closed most the gm plants down. Like many families we struggled so I watched my dad swap motors in his chevell uncle scrap his gto. My gto to me is what my family worked for what they built. As long as your keeping it American muscle swap it tear it down build it up. We may disagree but the car and era is still alive


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

OK.....everybody on this forum knows I like to foist my opinion.....so here goes: Jim, I am 2 years your junior, and grew up during the same era. I remember these cars when they were new, and still have the Hot Rod magazine I bought in third grade that introduced the "HOT '70 models. My first ride in a performance Pontiac was terrifying, and it made an impression on me. On my second ride in a high performance Pontiac (66 GTO 4 speed), I ended up driving that car home as its new owner. Ask anybody our age or older, like Bear, what the seminal moment was, and we'll have a story. Bear's first GTO experience is located on line somewhere, and is a must read. Point is, these are OUR memories when WE came of age.....when there were no LS engines, computers, cell phones, etc. We are from a different era, and we want to feel that era when we drive our Pontiacs. I know I feel like a kid every time I get behind the wheel and bang gears. I get the same noise, smells, and brutal torque that only a Pontiac can deliver. That's my thing. My preference. I agree with 99.9 % of what you say. The thing is, there are a lot of sharp YOUNG guys in their 20's-40's who grew up in a different era. They_ have_ no first memories of a tripower wailing on a dark back road. They are buying affordable rollers, and customizing them to their interpretation. Some of them do fantastic work. Again, not my 'thing', but man, look at Crusty's ride. Pretty darn stunning. I too think a hot rod is primarily a pre war car warmed up a bit. Not a muscle car. A muscle car is a muscle car, going back to at least 1936, when Buick put the large Roadmaster engine into the light Special body and called it a Century. I like either original, or 'Day Two' musclecars, and I like the kind of hot rods I saw as a kid, and still see here in the central valley: tuck and roll naugahide interiors, period steering wheels, nailhead Buick, Olds, or Flathead power, and NO BILLET or BOYD anything. Old school stuff. Because I'm and old school guy. I get it. To me, putting an LS in a Pontiac is like putting a Kawasaki Z1 engine in a '47 Harley. The whole context of the machine is changed. Entirely. Some folks like that, though. They like the performance. I am more of a romantic, and prefer the rumble, the nostalgia, and the _feeling_ that only a Pontiac engine can provide.


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## Orion88 (Apr 24, 2012)

I'm 25 years old and I wouldn't dare drop anything into my 70 GTO current restoration project other than good old fashioned Poncho Power. I think people who say the LS engine is more reliable don't know how to properly tune and tweak a carbureted engine. Quadrajets when set up correctly are as close to fuel injection reliability as you can get, and with simple bolt on applications like HEI, any old-school Pontiac engine should be more than reliable. Granted, I also believe everyone should build their car however they want, but if you pop the hood and I see anything but a beautiful blue Pontiac block, I've just lost 100% interest in your car. Have fun with it, but I could care less anymore.


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

Recently at a car show someone had a new Challenger with the hood up and I had never had a chance to see one of these up close. I was so disappointed in the engine bay. All there was to see is plastic and I never did see an engine in there. I'm sure it was quick but the engine bay did not have the look of the old. All the police departments in my area have the new Hemi Chargers and when they go after the speeders you can hear the officer flooring the engine to catch them and it sounds like it has some power put nothing like the sound of the old Mopar's 6 pack or the old GTO's tri-pwr.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Here's my "thing". PERSONALLY, I'm already as "sick" of LS engines as I ever was of chevy small blocks (and trust me, that was heap big spewing chunks sick ).

That's my opinion for myself. I wouldn't build one, I wouldn't buy one that someone else had built. 

HOWEVER - I also don't expect anyone else to agree with me or share my opinion just because it's mine. I see Crusty's car and appreciate it tons. It's as nice of a build as there is out there LS or not. He did it "right", and I don't think he has any apologies to make to me or anyone else. He did the work, spent the cash, and that means he gets to make the choices.

My car runs "pretty good", but there's no doubt that Alky's BBC'ed 69 would eat my car alive and spit out the bones. If we ever find ourselves in the same place at the same time, I'll be the one hiding in the corner.

These cars are as much art form and self expression as is music, art, or anything else. Everyone has their own personal tastes and that's just fine. 

If you're the kind of person who needs everyone else's approval before you can make up your mind about what you like and don't like, then perhaps you're better suited for political office than you are for building cars... 



Bear


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## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

When I see cars and hear talk of LS swaps I get the same reaction, "Me Too!!!" Although, with a right hand raised, I'd shamelessly plop a big block Chevy engine in a purpose-built GTO race car. In order to give deserved reverence to it I'd paint the block Pontiac blue and be sure to run finned aluminum valve covers. On the street? I get another reaction, and once done with mine I'm sure it will dominate the experience. "HA HA HA!! I got a REAL Poncho monster under the hood!" "Hey man, that car sounds mean. Is it an LS?" "Sorry kid, that's real muscle under there, not some sterilized version from today." I'm 2yrs senior to the OP and can relate 100% to his memories of used muscle. My past rides read like a who's who of the time. 70 LS5 Chevelle, 70 383 Cuda, 68 GT500KR, 69 Firebird with a 400 transplant, 70 GTO 400 auto w/air (73 400 engine), 69 440 4spd GTX, 69 390HP 427 Vette, and the one I miss the most, a gennie 69 Boss 302. Some were modded, some were bastardized before I got em, some were 100% OEM and "just right". Not once did I feel the need to drop the flavor of the time modern engine between the fenders. For a long time it was the Tuned Port SBCs, then it was the LT-1, now we're in LS phase. For Fords it was the 5.0 and then the 5.8. In short, f*** all of em. You have to experience what it not only "was" but what it "is" today. I read a line in an editorial decades ago. "Muscle cars are an oddity now, much like a tattoo discovered after a night of debauchery." Damn straight, and this grey ol bastid has no intentions of ever having that tattoo removed. 

At the same time, I get it for all you magazine worshipers who must have what the books lead you to. There's a very real and strong business model attached to it and it's doing well. As a pro restoration/builder type, my response to a client that wants it done would be, "What color would you like that LS painted sir?"


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

"...Not once did I feel the need to drop the _flavor of the time modern engine _between the fenders....
This is it, and stated brilliantly. Ever look at a Pro-stock style street car built in 1985 or so? No, they didn't age well. A lot of the 'flavor of the day' stuff doesn't hold up well over time. What holds up? Stock original and classy, _tasteful_ customs. But "what's hip today might become passe". The original design of a true classic only gets better with age, like fine wine. Thanks 666bbbl....that's the heart of it, right there.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I think it can be seen that perhaps the LS swap versus original Pontiac is generational for the most part. Those of us who have had the pleasure, and now the memories, of participating in a time when these muscle cars were available to us to purchase, drive, or get a ride in, will be hard pressed to want anything else under the hood of a GTO other than a Pontiac engine. It was a time when car manufacturers were defined by both body style and engine. GM shared many parts from manufacturer to another. We see this even on this forum when we swap parts from one A-Body maker to another. The Muncie 4-speed was found in all GM cars that offered the 4-speed option. Rear-ends, B-O-P were essentially the same and you could install a Chevelle rear into a Pontiac because frames were similar. But what made Pontiac different from the "other" GM brands was the engine.:thumbsup: 

We did not think of our Pontiacs, Buicks, Olds, Chevies, GMC's or Caddy's as a GM or corporate car. Pontiac was an independent company with its own engineers, its own designers, its own factories, its own marketers, and its own dealerships. Pontiac offered its own version of an engine and that was part of why you bought a Pontiac. Engine parts did not swap with a Buick, an Olds, a Chevy, or a Caddy. Pontiac engine parts only fit another Pontiac. 

But we also stood behind our brand of manufacturer like one would support a sports team. We were Pontiac guys, Chevy Guys, Mopar guys, Ford guys, Olds guys, Buick guys, and American Motors guys. Each of the groups bragged on what brand of cars were the best or fastest. Challenges pitting one car against another was the end result as most of us had our "special place" where we would meet and street race to see who was indeed the fastest. It did not matter if your 1969 GTO had a later model engine, or your 1965 Chevelle had an LS6 454 in it. The engine was of the same manufacture as the car, and that combo represented that make, be it Pontiac, Chevy, Ford, Chrysler, or whatever else there was to race at the time to see who had the fastest car. We were running maker against maker. Sometimes Pontiac won, sometimes the Ford guys won, sometimes the Chevy guys won. Then another car would pop up and soon rumors were that they had the fastest car, and it would start all over again. 

Back in the day, brands and manufacturers were defined and separate. Today, these lines are not so well defined as corporate cranks out the same engine/trans combo's into differently named brands which are ultimately the same cars with different clothing. The same engine in a late model Trans-Am is the same engine in a Z-28. You are simply choosing the outward appearance, and you can never really brag that your Pontiac beat a Chevy because both have Chevy (Corporate) engines. But there was a time when you could stomped a Chevy with your Pontiac and everyone knew that it was the Pontiac engine under your hood that stomped the Chevy engine under his hood.:smile2:


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## crustysack (Oct 5, 2008)

"Quadrajets when set up correctly are as close to fuel injection reliability as you can get", nothing against carbs but no way- computer controlled EFI systems constantly monitor air/fuel mixture ratio and change accordingly-instantly. Tune your car for the beach then drive up into the mountains it will NOT run as good. how about when you start up and its freezing out or how about high humidity, or high temperature when air is less dense? EFI automatically adjusts, your carb does not. You can definitely tune your carb for an average of driving condition where you live and it will run great. But the science of the 2 systems is like comparing an 8 track to an ipod


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I think the key word was 'reliability', not drivability. Fuel injection, particularly port fuel injection with a dry manifold is superior to carburetion at pretty much every level. The main reason I take my '94 4Runner to the mountains instead of my '83 4x4 Toyota pickup is because of the fuel injection: the 'runner runs the same at sea level as it does at 10,000 feet. Not so the carbureted truck. That said, the reliability of a carburetor will surprise you young guys. I have been driving the original, born-with quadrajet on my '67 for 31 years now. And that's just me. The PO put 125k miles on it from '67 to '83. The same carb. The same distributor. 246,000 miles and counting. Started right up today when I went on errands, hadn't been started in two weeks. I actually thought about how well it runs because this same topic is now raging on the other forum in the 'fuel mileage' thread. Fuel injection IS better than carburetion, but in the musclecar world, you are not really giving up performance or reliability with a carb, driven normally. Crusty, your '65 is one of the nicest cars on this forum. I would be proud to own it and drive it. You did a hell of a job. That said, let's see if your still driving it 31 years from now on the same engine and induction system, with the same parts, as I have done. I wonder why younger people assume that this old school stuff isn't reliable? Lack of understanding on how it works? Lack of real world experience? I dunno. Hell, my 99 year old, bone stock Ford model T is reliable....and it's running it's original block and Holly G brass updraft carb.... Just have to drive it within its design limitations (SLOWLY!)


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

x2 with geeteeohguy. I think crustysack has a super '65 and no doubt much work and thought has gone into it to get it that way.

The tri-power, AFB, Q-jet, and any other form of carb does indeed have a window to which it best works in. You are also talking 389 and up cubes. But, you can indeed tailor a carb to your needs, and I never experienced any adverse problems when seasons changed or altitudes altered. 

It is the cam that seemingly dictates the carb adjustments, and then the rear axle ratio has bearing on both the carb and chosen cam. A bigger cam needs and uses more fuel, so the carb needs to be adjusted richer (as would FI). A smaller cam needs less fuel and can be adjusted leaner (as would FI). The gear ratio at which you might want to cruise with determines the RPM range the engine will be spinning, which factors into carb performance and MPG's. FI will alter itself within a certain range as matched to your engine. But if you build your engine, you then have to make changes to your FI delivery system, computer module, and fuel system. So the FI also has a range it works within. 

I can put a Q-jet on an inline Pontiac 6 or a purpose built drag race 455CI and only have to change jets, secondary hangers, and some minor tweaks. FI would require many more and expensive changes to have the diversity the Q-jet has.:yesnod:

I have had several Pontiacs, to include a 1967 GTO, that got into the 20 MPG range with highway gears doing steady highway driving. Around town, mileage was lost due to stop and go. Most will get 18 on the highway with a good tune-up and adjustment for such if you don't go crazy with a big cam or gearing. That's better than many of the bigger trucks and SUV's of today with fuel injection.

The thing about the Q-jet is the sound. You won't get this with a modern fuel injection unit.

That said, fuel injection or TBI is a great add-on to a Pontiac engine and part of a "resto-mod" theme. I would do this myself if it was not for the price of the system, computer controls, and modified fuel system. I can't justify the cost over a tried and true, and reliable, Q-jet, AFB, Holley or other carb. FI or TBI is a big step up in price that I don't feel is justified in making any appreciable difference. 

The FI and TBI is also subject to its share of woes. It has a fuel filter, an electric fuel pump, injectors, assorted sensors, computer, wiring, etc. all of which can go bad at the worst time and require a technician or special diagnostic equipment to sort out the problem - I've owned a number of late model cars to make this statement. Seems every garage visit costs $250 and up nowadays. It will run you a minimum of $100 just for a diagnosis, then you have to do the repairs. One visit for a bad throttle position sensor, fuel injector, or electric fuel pump gone bad within the fuel tank, and I could have bought a new/restored carb. You don't want to ever buy a new computer. Ouch! A guy at work had something go on his Yukon fuel system - $600 repair. The FI or TBI may be seemingly more reliable UNTIL it isn't. Then when we match dollar for dollar in what it takes to get the FI or TBI system up and running versus that of a carb, the carb looks far more favorable -it is a simpler system that is far more easier to diagnose and/or repair or replace.:thumbsup:


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Well said, Jim, as usual. I've been working on all of this stuff almost as long as you have, and for a living. Bottom line over the long haul: the older, lower tech _mechanical_ stuff (Carbs and ignition points distributors) are slightly higher maintenance, but are superior in reliability over the higher tech electronic stuff over time. I have seen MANY tow-in's related to bad ignition modules, PCM, in-tank fuel pump, pick up coils, you name it. These vehicles required expensive parts and expensive diagnosis, many times, with dedicated specialized electronic tools. The tow ins I have seen with the older low tech cars could be diagnosed and repaired in short order with a test light and a screwdriver. Again, we will _see_ how many 2014 Camaros will be on the road in 50 years......I'm betting not too many. Electronics degrade over time and use, rendering modern cars nothing more than expensive appliances: use them up and throw them away.


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## crustysack (Oct 5, 2008)

I have owned and driven many carb'd I have nothing against the simplicity of the system and most people who have spent time under the hood understand how they work. The fine art of tuning a carburetor to its peak performance is a skill perfected by few. A tri-power set up is one of the sexiest things ever to sit on top of a motor- rest assured that if I had that to start with I would have dove in balls deep to get it restored and running proper. But as some of you know I inherited this project from my brother whos intention was the LS + 6 speed into the car. He started it in 05 before there were any motor mount kits for this swap( fabbed his own) and I just ran with it. 
I have had much excitement with carbs, my first car I purchased with my own $$ was a 1970 Charger and the first thing I did was buy a bigger Holley carb my inexperience with tuning it almost burnt the whole car and garage down, I mean it LOOKED cool with the flames shooting straight up out of the carb.
I drove my moms 56 Austin from the shop, carb over haul included half way home I'm smelling fuel, pull over and see that the carb has loosened off of the intake and fuel pissing all over the motor, very lucky not to have gone up in a puff there.
There are a lot of bad ass cars on this forum, and a lot of people whom are way more skilled than me when it comes to engine tear down and assembly, and I respect the skills.The two fastest car I ever rode in were normally aspirated a 70 454 Chevelle which was very fast and my buddies 1968 Chevelle with a 604 cubic inch crate motor putting out about 850 hp, which was RETARDED- that car would pin you to the seat at any speed when he hit the gas.
I like the technology that is being offered today, with a hand held tuner you can read EXACTLY how your motor is running- not giving the air mixture screw a 1/4 turn and saying "that sounds better". You can change the shift point in an automatic with a computer. Try doing that on a 68 automatic. You can detune the car to pass emissions than bump it right back up the same day. My point is you can build an LSx motor however you want enter all the parameter and the car will be tuned. These are just tools to help the builder out. 
I no longer use a plumb bob when building boats I use a laser. I embrace the new tech, and everyone is entitled to their opinion which makes this forum interesting.
On the flip side of repair cost if you bring in a non obdII port car you are still paying 85-110 per hour for someone to manually diagnose the problem and simple stuff car become expensive due to the lack of good ol fashioned mechanical know how


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Well put, Crusty. One thing for sure here: you _DO NOT__ need to make any apologies/excuses for your car. It's a work of art_. Also, on your last sentence, the uninclined could be paying $$$ per hour to a 25 year old tech who's never SEEN a carburetor!! I appreciate both sides of the coin, but agree with Jim that when it comes to reliability, the 'old stuff' is just as reliable as the new stuff, and simpler to repair with low tech tools _if you have the know how_. Jim and I are dinosaurs, and are becoming extinct. I work on the new tech stuff, and am amazed at how bulletproof it is. And easy to diagnose/dial in. It's just an entirely different feel, that's all. I happen to be one of those rare buzzards that can butt and ear tune an engine to the nth degree with nothing more than a timing wrench and a screwdriver.It's truly a 'feel'...a fouled plug _feels_ different than an open wire. A lean miss _feels_ different than a dead miss, etc. Working/operating the old stuff is a whole different world. Some of us like it, some of us don't.


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

If your going to build one then make sure it can out perform all the exotics around you (like in this picture)


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

^^ That is Awesome! And.....that is _no_ LS motor!

Sorry guys, even coming from me, there is no reason not to choose traditional Pontiac Power these days _unless_ you are on a budget.

An LS motor can be had relatively cheaply and swapped in easily and offers a weight and efficiency improvement as well as the availability of parts (now). The biggest drawback I see on the traditional Pontiac engine are the cylinder heads and compression ratio. Hard to get a stock Pontiac, even a lo po engine to run on todays gas if it has 10:1 compression or more. The best solution to that is aluminum heads. 

Simply can't build a Pontiac to make the same power as my car for the money but it can be done, budget be damned. Someday my car _will_ have a traditional Pontiac engine between it's framerails whether it is the original block done stock, or mild stroker or an aftermarket block and turbo setup like this car. It won't be soon but I'd love to build an engine similar to "Chiefs" Street Outlaw car "the Crow".

I'm just addicted to the sick power. 

To me, Pontiacs are not just about the engine, the styling and image of the car is the standout. True, the engine is the heart of the beast and helped solidify the legend of the Pontiac line but even a car like mine or Crusty's personifies the Pontiac image. And either car could be Pontiac powered in the future should the owners wish. 

If it sounds like I'm barking up both sides of the tree, I am. Any way we can preserve the proud Pontiac heritage we should. I think we can all appreciate each others cars for the beauty and craftsmanship in them. I understand why someone would go "corporate" power but I always encourage the use of traditional Pontiac engines.


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

To me the look of that twin intake/twin turbo engine is the current equivalent of what tri-pwr looked like in it's day.


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## crustysack (Oct 5, 2008)

heres the link to that build and for all the old schoolers its a 389
http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/49834-Schwartz-Twin-Turbo-65-LeMans-Convt


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## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

I don't think it's about reliability, ease of tuning, not even what's faster or gets better MPG. There's a vibe to it. As was mentioned already, you get it or you don't, but a modern powered GOAT only gets "some of it". I couldn't raise a right hand about Sophia Loren as to whether or not she had a lot of physical "repair" in her later days. I think not, but she made a stage appearance one time and had the same grace and beauty and had the perfection that only age can manage. Still stunning and her persona demanded respect. Closer to our world, Linda Vaughn has aged well too, and I think all surgically modified an dressed in some outfit best fitted to a woman in her mid 20s, no thanks. The real thing NEVER needs it. 

"Ok Mr 6bbl, but these ain't women." Sorry, but they sure as hell are. The skins are so car sexy and we all have a favorite. Maybe a few, and if they weren't then why try to dress them in today's gear? I think the old stuff will always move some of us as they were and I have noticed that it does transcend generations. I've met a few yoots that are well studied and strive for what was, and I always applaud that louder than the new hi-tech seekers. I got my license in the thick of the oil embargo and drooled at the prospect of muscle cast off in favor of mileage. I think I did alright considering what I'v had under foot in the past. Someone mentioned Duesenberg earlier in this topic. Never had one, but I have driven "The World's Finest Automobile" and had the honor and pleasure of wrenching and tuning on one in particular. Maybe my occupation helps me appreciate and respect all of the muscle car roots. Some things are best as they come. A good steak never needs "A-1", does it? That was for those who can't make the woman connection.  

Nobody in their right mind would change a thing on these...

Sophia Loren?:


Linda Vaughn? (389 6bbl and 4spd):


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Amen, 666bbl. You have indeed, covered all the bases. Agree 100%. I've wanted a Duesenberg since I was 6 years old...


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## crustysack (Oct 5, 2008)

I'd throw a turbine helicopter motor into that duesy :bannana::smilielol: 
and Linda needs a new pair of shoes and a day at the beauty salon- I mean that one wiper arm thing is so passe:biggrinjester:


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## maktope (May 22, 2013)

:agree laughed pretty hard there. Like I said went to modern interior switching to modern gages. Just on the fence on pulling the 428 for an lsx.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

crustysack said:


> I'd throw a turbine helicopter motor into that duesy :bannana::smilielol:
> and Linda needs a new pair of shoes and a day at the beauty salon- I mean that one wiper arm thing is so passe:biggrinjester:


:smilielol::smilielol5::smilielol::smilielol5: Well played sir!


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Crusty needs to make 666bbl a carbon fiber "A$$ Grass or Gas, Nobody Rides for Free" license plate frame for 'Linda'. BTW, I like Linda's shoes: period correct Americans. I would'nt change a thing. Like the color too. I might remove some of the cardboard and 'stuff' from the back seat area, but might not..........


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## Orion88 (Apr 24, 2012)

maktope said:


> :agree laughed pretty hard there. Like I said went to modern interior switching to modern gages. Just on the fence on pulling the 428 for an lsx.


If you pull that 428 let me know!! That's my dream engine that I want to build for my car down the road. People keep telling me to build a 461 stroker but those are a dime a dozen. It's so much cooler to say you've got a 428! Sure a stroker will probably be more streetable, easier to build up, etc, but I like to stand out from the rest.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Orion88 said:


> If you pull that 428 let me know!! That's my dream engine that I want to build for my car down the road. People keep telling me to build a 461 stroker but those are a dime a dozen. It's so much cooler to say you've got a 428! Sure a stroker will probably be more streetable, easier to build up, etc, but I like to stand out from the rest.


They all look the same.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

It is indeed cool to say '421' or '428', but these big journal blocks are inferior to the 400 blocks due to thier heavy crankshaft and large swept bearing areas. They don't hold up nearly as well above 3000 rpm. I used to want a 421, but now, not so much. I'd probably stroke my 389 and still call it a 389....(it's actually a 394 now).


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

^Yup, build that stroker from a garden variety 400 block (pre '75) and call it whatever you want. Put some E-heads on it, grind off the casting marks and paint them Pontiac blue. I'd take some steel shavings and sprinkle them on the wet paint so they leave rust streaks. Heck, tell people it's just a 326......:biggrin2: I'd love to put one of those in a 63 Tempest.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

geeteeohguy said:


> Crusty needs to make 666bbl a carbon fiber "A$$ Grass or Gas, Nobody Rides for Free" license plate frame for 'Linda'. BTW, I like Linda's shoes: period correct Americans. I would'nt change a thing. Like the color too. I might remove some of the cardboard and 'stuff' from the back seat area, but might not..........



Good catch! Why IS someone using a perfectly good GTO as a dumpster?


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## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

Anybody who would put all that shit in the car in a dumpster is simply stupid. She's a project kids, but thanks for lookin so close. Born a red 4bbl 4spd, no console. Now a red 6bbl 4spd, still no console but now factory air too. All GTO, no new "fluff", but it does have 66 Chevelle disc brakes vs the OEM drums. I can't make up my mind on the wheels. I have Ansen Sprints in above average condition too.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Just kidding with you about the dumpster. I have used mine to hide Christmas presents from the wife and kids and as a canoe rack in the winter. I think everyone has stashed stuff in (or on) their cars, especially as the parts pile gets big for a project. I used to keep extra car parts in the bedroom. I don't suggest that as an option as not everyone's wives are as patient as mine is about those sorts of things. 

Nice looking car too. The wheels are a tough call. Both styles you have are pretty timeless but I have a soft spot for the factory ones as well. Mine is also a 4 speed without the console. Are you planning on installing one or leaving it without?


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## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

No console. I like the "pissed off" attitude of a 4spd sticking through the floor with no console. I have different shift knobs too, some kool resin stuff, some OEM style, but I think the iconic Hurst 'T' handle needs to be there as well. She can change her shoes and jewelry (period accessories), but she'll always be "Linda".


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

I have the original (teal?) wood shift knob, never seen another one like it. Matches the sport wood steering wheel perfectly.


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

A green wood shift knob? You sure it is not rotting away?


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## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

Teak is probably more like it, but I like the smart ass replies. Good to see that none of us take ourselves too seriously and can enjoy different opinions.


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## proper (Apr 1, 2012)

I was born in the mid 1950's and lived through what I think was the golden years of the muscle car era.But with that said I found a survivor 65 numbers matching single 4 barrel 2 speed automatic that was taken off the road in 1978 and the owner started to take it apart for really no reason.Now it's time for a new life for that poor gto with a l76 from a 2009 g8,6l80e transmission and a Hiedts irs in the back end.This car will be on a road course from Texas to Washington and will never be on a trailer unless it's broken,that will be a few more miles then it was getting before I bought it,the original owner tried to sell that car for 2 years[yes I'm the second owner].So I guess my opinion is that I'm okay with what ever it takes to get these classics back on the road where they will see some serious miles and be driven in the manner that they were made for.My buddies know that if they ever find me in some parking lot,sitting in a lawn chair and cleaning a clean car with 300 other guys with no life, they are to call the gentlemen in the white jackets and have me committed.


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## the65gto (Oct 9, 2008)

I am going to stick with what I got. Pontiac. I was in the service with a guy who bought a 65 GTO went on a trip and when he got back he had the 389 in his trunk and had a chevy straight 6 under the hood. I asked him W_ _, he said the 389 used to much fuel and that he got better gas mileage with the six. That was 47 years ago, my forehead still hurts from slapping myself in disbelief. All aside, if they were to offer *PONTIAC* 400 crate engines, I would probably bite on that one. IMHO the late model GTO's never did sit right or catch on with the "Chevy" engine.


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## acr3 (May 30, 2014)

*I'm 70 yrs. old &, like many here, remember when the GTO first came out. I probably prefer a 389 in a classic GTO. But it be awsome to put an LS-7 in a Tempest body clone GTO! And I think our hobby is big enough for both.*


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## Amigo-2k (Jun 18, 2011)

*Ls1*

This past spring I sold my numbers match 1970 GTO ... why? Because I wanted something old with an LS1 in it ... I have a bucket list of cars I want to own and one with a LS1 is on the list 



















Days after I sold the GTO I found a 1977 Trans AM with a LS1 swap done. I love the fact that I can turn the key and it starts every time! +400 HP to the rear wheels and I can cruise down the road at 70 mph and get 25MPG.


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## RubiconMike (Oct 14, 2010)

*Actual 1965 GTO Owner*

Well, I've been reading this thread and thought I'd throw my $ .02 in.

My first car was a '65 GTO, 398, 4 barrel, 4 speed. Had it senior year in high school and it was a pretty cool car until the salted roads in the midwest took it to muscle car heaven.

A few years ago I was looking for a new daily driver and thought I'd get one of those Australian GTOs they imported for a few years. Drove a stick shift one and really liked it, the only reason I didn't buy it is because the GMC used car dealer thought it was worth about $5k more than I thought it was.

So I was surfing Craigslist looking for a GTO and to see what I could buy for under $20. Just for grins I plugged in "Corvette" and found a 2002 Z06 that I ended up buying for $17k, about the same I would have spent for a good GTO. 

The LS6 in my car has been 100% reliable, purrs like a kitten at idle, pulls like a tractor from idle and roars like a lion to redline. It's got 405 hp, I get 33mpg on the highway (at 70 mph!) and it's certified as a National Low Emissions Vehicle (NLEV). 

Would I put an LS motor in an old GTO I was restoring? ABSOLUTELY! (Unless it was a numbers-matching car that was in mint condition) I buy my cars to drive, and the performance of modern engines combined with their reliability and fuel economy makes it a no-brainer to me. Sure, if I was doing a frame-off restoration and was expecting to get top dollar, I'd keep the original engine, but I want a car that I can drive every day, so a modern engine is the way to go. Since Pontiac never developed a modern V8 before they went away, the LS is it. (BTW, had Pontiac stayed around, what motor do you think they would be using? Check the last series of Firebird if you're not sure).

Now, I realize there are still some people who believe the world is flat, that there is some magic father figure in the sky who watches over us, and that a "real Pontiac" has to have a motor from the stone age, and that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and it's the diversity that makes life interesting. But having lived through the cars of the '60s I don't believe the engines of that time were in any way superior to the motors being produced today. There is a reason GM scrapped the old small block Chevy and replaced it with the LS series.

So, buy what you like, drive what you like, and try not to get too upset with the poor misguided people who don't share your opinion.


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## gtopercy (Nov 11, 2008)

*I agree*

well here's my 2 cents...
I agree with you Bud.
I have several restored original trans ams and GTO's. Most I restored myself. Also a 2002 RA TA, Pure bread all the way but the next car I build/buy I would like to make a 69 FB TA clone with the LS drive train. 

Here's a spin on this also. The new Chevy Camaro is really a Pontiac G8 reskinned. So does the new Chevy Camaro have a Pontiac chassis so is the new Camaro not a true Chevy ? lol

...if I see a Pontiac Firebird, TA or GTO hood pops and I see a Chevy small or big block in it the car I could puke. To me it lost half it's value no matter the condition. Good luck trying to sell it. I don't see that being the case with the LS engine. Besides the awesome performance (power band), fuel economy, a great benefit of the LS engine's are the weight. Pontiac's are too front heavy. 




SANDU002 said:


> If you have a 64-74 GTO that is numbers matching or restored back to spec with the correct engine, I would agree.
> Technically the LSx motors are GM not Chevy. These motors will fit a GTO, Camaro, G8 or Corvette and produce the same power/torque with only minor differences.
> I see a lot of first gen goats being redone into pro touring and resto mod because it is cheaper to do and more dependable. Don't get me wrong, I love first gen power plants and that "old school" muscle. It all depends on the condition of the car when purchased and the plan to put it on the road.


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## Oldsmobileman (Dec 8, 2008)

It's all 100% reversible. Reality is if you have the money to do it, you have the money to undo it. Personally my 67 Gto is stock down to the four wheel manual drum brakes. My 2000 Pontiac Trans Am Ws6 has all of the creature comforts the Goat doesn't have, but there's something about a full manual car. No power steering, no power brakes and no inside power luxuries like ac, electric windows that just brings out the caveman in all of us! So that being said I like being a caveman, if you don't and have the cash flow more power to you.


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## zet06 (Mar 18, 2013)

I have a 06 with 7k miles and a restored 65 and I would do a LS swap in the 65 if the engine bagged it. I might not do the complete change over yielding to a carb/eldelbrock/mSD and orig a/cleaner and using adaptors to re use the orig GTO valve covers put no problem on doing it and >I love original cars. That s what "pro touring" is all about. Can always change it back !!! Same as swapping out the orig steering for a rack.


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## heyman (Jan 15, 2010)

crustysack said:


> Opinions -every ones got em
> heres mine
> GM=Pontiac
> GM=LSx
> ...


Couldn't agree more, even the part about hating red cars, Nice color on the 65.


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## VettenGoat (Jun 19, 2007)

I get the resto mod concept, much like re-purposing old antiques; it has it place.It is a style, and I respect all manner of car enthusiasts even if I would never personally been seen in their creations. It is the re-purposing that lies at the heart of this question. Is the donor car an empty hull long since devoid of any historic value? If so,I could agree that an abandoned Tempest 6 cylinder might be a good candidate for such a swap. BUT if the owner is in any way deconstructing a true GTO in order to construct some resto-hermaphrodite, then my instinct is not only no, but hell no. Those baby boomers among us spent many a warm summer night defending and building the Pontiac reputation; often at the expense of the bowtie boys. So if it is your intention to drop an LS motor into a true GTO, then I say, go buy a Chevy platform for your creation and don't mess with the Pontiac legacy. 
You don't get it and obviously never did. Jim, take his keys!


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## geeman (Apr 2, 2010)

I really love both ideas.My 66 GTO had a 427 L72 in it when I bought it when I was a kid.
Thought about finding a original 389 but the power of the BB chev was sick.I was only 18.I drove it hard for 10 years then wanted something different.I love the design of the old cars more than anything especially the GTOs but liked the new tech in the new vehicles.I put a Schwartz frame under it and a 427 LSX with a vortech supercharger and tranzilla 6 speed.It has 14 in brakes and 6 piston calipers.Its a blend of old and new school.One drive in a 1000 hp car that handles and stops is hard to go back.Especially when it looks stock from the outside.My dad has a original 70 lemans Jury.One of 25 built with 56,000 miles on it .Love that car but dosent excite me to drive it,just sayin


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## joesweeting (May 8, 2011)

*Ls*

I took my 69 GTO in to Grease Monkey Garage in Panama City to have the car rewired (I'm color blind). I was talking to the owner and he said it would be better to do a turbo 5.3 lsx than put in a fuel injection system on my 461 engine. Long story short, he pulled my engine and wires and the car sat outside for almost three months with no work on it. I had to pay almost $4,000 to get a non running car full of parts, most of which I could not use. I was transferring commands and had to leave the GTO at a friends house. I'm still working with my credit card company on the issue and contacted the BBB. I took my daily driver GTO into Grease Monkey and because they had no idea what they where doing my car has been non operational for over a year. When I get the car back I'll let you know if it was worth it... I'm leaning towards no. My friend is working on it in his spare time. He going to open a shop when he gets out of the military.

I put a couple of pics of the swap in my album. 
One with the engine fully installed
The one of the brake rotors you cam see the Pontiac colored valve cover in the back ground
The new gauges pic is upside down


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## KTM525 (Sep 25, 2012)

I've always been a Pontiac guy and will always be a Pontiac guy. I understand the kids at work that have grown up with LS motors and putting them in what ever they can afford. To them it's more about being able to build their own programs and interchanging parts and his blazer is fast. They don't like chevy small blocks it's all about the LS. They are always telling me to put an LS in my GTO. Then I act like I'm going to puke. Then one day he comes in telling me how he was beat by an early 70's firebird and to his amazement it was Pontiac powered. Now I tell them I want to put a Pontiac in solstice. To me it's all about my Pontiac powered cars and if it costs twice as much to build than LS to me it's worth it. I grew up in this GM town and everyone thinks that GM means chevy and I love to see a Pontiac (Buick or Olds) shut a chevy down. Again just my opinion.


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## chiropaul (Feb 22, 2013)

Here is my 2 cents since I am currently on to my 2nd LS build with my 1967 Tempest. When I bought the car it had a 400 motor with a bottom end knock and other issues. Originally the car had a 326, so this car is far from original as it is.

When the 400 failed I was faced with 2 choices:
A - Spend $3-4k rebuilding the 400 motor or more if I wanted to increase the performance. 
B - Spend $2k on an already modified LS1 (MS4 cam, Ls6 intake, 36lb injectors, already Tuned computer, etc). One test drive of this motor, which was running mid 10s in a 70 Nova, and it was a no brainer.

I spent another $1500 in misc parts to make the swap work and my Tempest flat out hauled ass 
LS1 1967 Pontiac Tempest vs 600hp Supercharged Saleen Mustang - YouTube

Now I am on to my 2nd LS build which is a Junkyard 5.3 Turbo build with an S475 turbo. I sold my LS1 for the $2k i have into it and used that money to fund this build. $500 for the motor in a local wrecking yard. Another $2000 in turbo related parts, cam/springs/pushrods/injectorsBOV/wastegate/etc. 

I'm looking to put out around 600-700hp on pump gas.

If my car was an all original GTO, I would never do this. But in my situation why would you throw old tech into the car when you can snag these 5.3 motors in the junkyard for $500 all day long and slap a cam and heads on them and be in the 350hp range. Put a little spray on it and your in the 500hp plus range. Or do what I am doing if you can fabricate. The LS motors are GM motors, Pontiac is a GM car, and so I feel like there is no issue there. Its not a Ford or Mopar. That is a whole different story.

First pic my car is on the right. 2nd one is with the 5.3 in the car (I was in the middle of hiding the wiring harness at this point). Last pic is what it will look like with the turbo strapped on.


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## harrygto (Jun 19, 2012)

keep the Pontiac in the GTO
keep the LS in the 04,05,06


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## skillz (Sep 27, 2011)

I would do what I please most people bring up good points but at the end of the day its like most have said all opinions I would do what I want when I want it.. any classic car at that if I want power ill get it from the modern ls blocks im the type who cares less about keeping it original if the interior isnt or suspension isnt then whats the big deal about the motor im a drag guy so what ever is more efficient at delivering whp ill use could.. be chevy motor pontiac .. oldsmobile I couldn't care less j personally think old stangs for example with a gm motor best decision some 1 could make ahahaha imho


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## silversport (Mar 23, 2007)

yes...skillz...I think the guys with the old Fords all powered by Chevy feel the same way...a buddy was building up a Model A pick up and I suggested a built flat head but he got a SBC and went that route...at the end of the day does it ruin it...many people think not...

I like the LS2 in my '06 GTO...we with the newer cars get this reaction many times (if not here) about our versions...not a real GTO...sure it is...

would I like a classic GTO with classic GTO power...sure would...would I be happy with an older GTO with an LS motor...yup...

Bill


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## Fred007 (Jul 23, 2008)

I have a '65 Tempest that I got with a blown motor and no numbers matching. Working on a restomod incarnation of that car now.








Having done an LS1 swap in my Jeep, and seeing the results first hand while doing some serious rock crawling, can say from an engineering standpoint there are many benefits to this swap vs. the standard engine. Crawling up really steep rocks at severe angles being the first thing that pops into mind.

However, if I had a numbers matching GTO, would not have gone this route. In the end, I think the really cool thing is that we are all able to express ourselves in our rides. Whether you want new in an old shell, classic restoration, etc. the car and the end result is your expression of what you want.

BTW: This is a Mast Motorsports L99 Blacklabel with a 4L60E. On pump gas, dynoed at 612. Just drove it a week ago for the first time since I started this project 5 years ago. It is pretty fun to drive. Oh, and to really cross the line, has a Ridetech air suspension. Will have to let you know how it handles, don't have it aligned or the suspension tuned yet.


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## timmyg (Jan 2, 2012)

*Please leave it Pontiac*

I am a 53 year old who grew up as Jim did catching the tail end of the Muscle Cars. I was always a GM Man, in particular a Chevy Guy. I had a 68 Chevy Nova back in the day. However while in High School during the late 70"s, my good friend had a 65 GTO. We both attended an Auto Mechanics Training Class during 11th and 12th grade. Commonly referred to as Vo-Tech. This was Mon thru Friday in the mornings. We were allowed to drive there as long as we had our parents permission. So, one day he would drive and the next day i would drive. He was an excellent mechanic and would change it seemed week to week what engine trans. combo he had in the Goat, He would have a 428 with an auto trans, and then he would have a 455 with a four speed, etc. The one thing he always had was respect from all the other guys. After all he had the GTO. I vowed that I would have one one day. That day came in 2011 when I located one about 5 to 6 miles from my house. It had been sitting in the garage of the second owner of the car for close to 30 years. I went to look at the car and knew right away that I had to have it. It was a rust free 60,000 mile 65 GTO Post Car. It had a 70 HO 455 in it with a 66 Tripower set up and a Turbo 400 trans. Although it did not have the original 389 four speed it was all PONTIAC just the same.
This car had one of those old stories behind it. Apparently way back in the day, the car was stolen from the original owner and had the drive train removed and then was left abandoned. Once the car was found, the insurance company paid the original owner off for the value of the car as the owner did not want it after that. The guy i bought it from was friends with the insurance agent and he bought the car and kept it ever since up until I bought it from him. Once i bought the car and started telling folks about it, I got the same response from many of them which was, you bought so and so's car? Wow thats a piece of Southern Maryland History. they would say i remember that car eating up chevy's, mopars, etc. back in the day. 
I said all that to say this:
This car was special and all GTO's are special. When ever I drive my car anywhere I get the head turmers, the thumbs up, and if i stop somewhere you can believe I will be in more than one conversation with peiople who are drawn to the car. Once I pop the hood and let them look under, they are impressed that it is a PONTIAC engine and trans, The Tri power blows them away and many of them say I cant believe you have the Tri Power as they were always problematic. I tell them I have gone through all three Carb's and they work great. All the attention I get is due to the fact that everyone refers to the GTO as the MUSCLE CAR. The fact that although not the original Power plant in the car, It is PONTIAC. Unfortunately GM discontinued the PONTIAC which in my opinon is a shame. All the more reason to keep the surviving PONTIAC'S, all PONTIAC.


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## TheVetteDoctors (Mar 29, 2006)

I think life is short & you should do what makes YOU happy
There have been a lot of good points made but again it's what makes you happy

Here's what makes me happy


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## shawshank (Apr 10, 2013)

If for whatever reason you had a GTO with matching numbers, by all means keep it together if that's what you want to do. If you don't, don't. It is still YOUR car. Stop worrying about what other people think and do what makes you happy. Some people have a lot of emotions and memories tied up in what used to be (nothing necessarily wrong with that). 

Like I have seen some people write, there are those of us who grew up with the LS and that is 'our' engine. I don't know that there has be any engine as prolific on a global scale that is so easily customizable to your wants and needs (be it rock crawling, auto cross, road courses, drag, even boats!) Parts are everywhere and innumerable builders/hobbyists are well-versed in what is one of the most prolific engines to date (and for good reason). To sum up many here, to each his own.


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## PMDGUY (Feb 21, 2014)

IF ITS LOUD AND LOOKS GOOD IT'S COOL IN MY BOOK!! A vehicle is a extension of the owner so no two will be quit the same so there is no real rite or wrong! Opinions are like *&%[email protected]^!*&%[email protected]^!*&%[email protected]^!*&%[email protected]^!*&%[email protected]^!*&%[email protected]^!*&%[email protected]^!s everyone has them and they all stink!!


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

TheVetteDoctors said:


> I think life is short & you should do what makes YOU happy
> There have been a lot of good points made but again it's what makes you happy
> 
> Here's what makes me happy


Beautiful GTO there VetteDoctor! I gotta ask though.....Is it LS powered or Pontiac Powered?

So, How many of you "heretics" (I'm one!) get asked when the hood is shut whether or not your Pontiac is Pontiac Powered?


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

I do all the time.


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## fittrjoe (Nov 5, 2012)

Sorry Pontiac Jim I dissagree . 
PMDGUY , I could not have said it better !! 
Im 58 and owned some nice old original muscle cars... 
Personally I would love to get my hands on a 66 or 67 and upgrade brakes, suspension and drop in a LS.
The newer technology is faster and safer


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## Mainlin (Jul 21, 2014)

My 2 cents... If the car is original, numbers matching, leave it that way. I like restored cars that look original but I also like the cars that have been modernized. I'm not going to tell someone they are wrong or bad for putting an LS engine in their Pontiac because it's their car. I might be sad inside if I find out the car was numbers matching complete when they started changing out stuff and especially if they didn't keep the original parts.

To each their own.


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## nvdirtbiker (Sep 1, 2009)

In my opinion, putting an LS motor in a classic GTO is no different than swapping a small block chevy into a classic GTO. for those who insist LS=GM, therefore its okay, need I remind you the first gen small block chevy became the GM corporate V8. That doesn't make it a Pontiac. As for late model GTOs having LS motors, well those werent really Pontiac's either. I fell for it, and bought a black 06. but in time, I realised It was just a rebadged import, that should have never received the iconic and revered GTO name. Purely bad marketing from a division that was run into the ground by such decisions. The Aztek comes to mind here. No, real Pontiac GTOs deserve real Pontiac engines. And by the way, published numbers seem to bear no relation to actual driving experience. My 70 GTO 400 4-speed felt stronger, faster, and infinitely more fun than my 6.0 Holden, err, "GTO". The '70 snapped your head back and pinned you to the seat in a way the modern and "more powerful" 6.0 LS powered Holden monaro, uh, I mean "GTO", never could. No comparison in the driving experience. Yeah, the numbers were better with the new car. On paper, it wins everywhere. But the actual driving experience? No comparison. The '70 kicks the 06s ass. Real Pontiac V8s were, and are, special engines from a special division that died long, long before GM finally pulled the plug.


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## MITYGTO (Jun 10, 2011)

*LS Swap*

I am 60 and pretty much old school when it comes to muscle cars. Been playing with them since 1968 and like many others that have chimed in here was fortunate enough to own several from stockers to borderline race cars. Regarding LS swaps into GTO's or for that matter any muscle car era car, the generation gap is at play here. Young guys for the most part were not exposed to the older cars but they do understand the new. Putting an LS in a GTO completely changes the personality of the car. What I am saying is that the car will no longer be what it originally was. Driveability and reliability can be improved by leaps and bounds if the swap is done correctly and tuning by laptop can be a possibility. To each his own. In some cases an LS swap can be the path of least resistance. Modern factory reliability plus an overdrive transmission. An LS swap done correctly to include a properly designed fuel system will deliver modern driveability and the advantage of using factory parts. What is lost is the nostalgia factor. On a hot summer day when the interior of my 70 GTO is getting pretty toasty as the heat off the headers on my modified 462 comes up through the console and floorboards it would be an interesting experience to be able to drive the same car LS powered with the AC on! The LS car would be more comfortable, quieter and much more emission friendly. You can't really compare them. Old school means how things were back in the day. Like I said, to each his own. I don't believe in making something old into something new. When I want modern comforts and driveability in a high performance car I hop in my 96 LT4 Corvette and think to myself regarding muscle cars "That was then and this is now" A song lyric from Sly and the Family stone also says it well "Different strokes for different folks". Whatever your choice, enjoy the hobby and please don't choose to do an LS swap on a numbers matching ride............ Just my 2 cents here.


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## pcguy (Jul 7, 2014)

Here's a dumb question:

Has anyone ever gotten an old school muscle car engine to compete with the fuel economy of an LS engine? I've often wondered why that is...

With all the choices out there I'm really stuck with the idea of using an LS series engine for my long planned restomod project - probably an LSA from a wrecked CTS-V.


Nick


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## sfenco (Dec 12, 2009)

*LS2 in 65 GTO*

I respect every ones opinion about what ever they want to do with there GTO'S. I have a gto that I put 30 k on in five years. I use it all the time. It has an LS2, T56 tranny, ford nine inch, baer brakes, global west suspension, Foose wheels, etc. I get 20 MPH, and never did anything except drive it and change the oil. And its a real GTO. My car will out handle, stop better, Go faster, get better gas milage and cruise at 70 all day, then an old GTO... If you want to use to car, this is the way to go....:lol::lol:


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## ycgoat (Oct 10, 2008)

Let's take this a step further, I am restoring a 70 Judge that has severe frame damage is it OK with the purists to put a 69 Chevelle frame under it as long as I use a Pontiac engine?

for the engine I have a 72 Pontiac 455, and wanted a reliable street-able 600 HP with out cutting the hood, so I am seriously considering a supercharged LS-3. The LS engine is far superior to any old engine platform, and is dominating the modern muscle car era.


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## GTO70455 (Feb 10, 2009)

There is no right or wrong answer. You own the car do what you want... Having said that I believe the motor is the Heart and Soul of the car. My 70 came off the assembly line and the first time I started it I new it was mine. I am no purest every part of the car was upgraded and rebuilt as the years went by. I kid with my best friend the only thing still Pontiac in the drivetrain is the block (and the flywheel bolts). So the answer is how and why are you attached to a certain car? But for me when I start my Pontiac I am 18 all over again (and I can still row some gears), and its Heart and Soul is still Pontiac!!!!


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## Darbikrash (Nov 19, 2012)

No right or wrong answer to this one as far as I am concerned. With my 1965, I wrestled with the same issues, and landed on it in a different way.

My ’65 is not an especially interesting car, numbers matching PHS verified GTO, with the base 389 4bbl, two speed automatic and factory air. Original CA black plate car, but other than that nothing special.




So I was tempted by the LS option.

Also in my fifties, I remember well the “good old days” of running Pontiacs and all the rest of the true factory original muscle cars back in the day. And I loved it. Truth is, although fast in their day (compared to what was available) a 360 HP 4 speed car that has marginal brakes, terrible handling and so-so reliability by today’s standards is not much of a performance match for an average BMW or even a Lexus today. 

Most if the appeal is simply nostalgia, and for me anyway the reality does not really match the memories.

I am troubled by this nostalgia. Although I “get it” and totally respect the Pontiac brand and what it stood (and still stands) for, I am reminded of other marques, and how they have reconciled this nostalgia. I know some Ferrari guys, my age, and their passion is also all factory original with no mods allowed- at all. These guys wax poetic about the “twelve cylinder” cars as opposed to the V8’s, have endless arguments about “Enzo” era cars versus the newer models- bottom line, these guys rarely drive their cars and certainly do not work on them themselves. They have the same look down the nose perspective- with a few extra zeroes added to the price. They are afraid of devaluing their cars by actually driving them, and if they did actually break down they would have no idea how to work on it.

I think this is where it goes eventually, nostalgia buffs simply reliving the past. Museum curators if you will. The Pontiac hobby is by no means at this point now, but I can see it going there if the only thing that is valued is ‘numbers matching’ originality. I respect people that restore Pontiacs down to the chalk marks and hose clamps- but that is not a hobby that interests me.

While I acknowledge the GTO marque and everything it stands for, I have no interest personally in a poor handling 14 second quarter mile car with marginal brakes-no matter its pedigree. If someone feels an LS swap is in the cards, I begrudge no one, and certainly do not look down my nose at such a swap. What really matters is that you did it yourself, and that you can work on it yourself, and that you built it yourself- that is what separates us from the Ferrari and Porsche “tool polishers”, not the year or style of the engine block casting.

For me, after much soul searching I decided against an LS swap, and went with a 461 stroker. I built an entirely modern chassis with Z06 brakes, modern EFI on a Pontiac engine, crank fired ignition, modern air conditioning, and a modern overdrive automatic.

I am preserving the original, numbers matching intact chassis/motor/drivetrain, if a future owner wants to swap out all this goodness for the 1965 original version, why they will be welcome to it. In the meantime, I will be enjoying a non-numbers matching Pontiac with modern systems and great performance- and not likely to be dispatched by some kid in a leased BMW.

Not right or wrong, just another way of looking at it.


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## pcguy (Jul 7, 2014)

^^^ Very Cool....

Looks a bit like what this vette turned out to be....

1968 Corvette Hotrod Roadster for sale 840 HP - Corvette Forum


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## Taxangler (Sep 10, 2013)

I have just finished a two year restoration project on my 1969 GTO. I have gone through many trials and tribulations around the engine rebuild. My goal was to generate 500 HP with an original Pontiac 400 engine. This took a a lot of tweaking. I could have achieved this more easily and more cheaply by dropping in a LS engine. But this just didn't seem like the right thing to do a classic GTO. To me dropping in an LS engine is akin to putting on low rider wheels. So I kept the original Pontiac 400 block, and enhanced it with new heads, a custom grind cam and a new carburetor. I am of the view that these are the things I would have done back in the day if I was "souping" up my engine. While my classic GTO is not a matching numbers car, it is still a classic GTO and NOT a hybrid which would be the case with a LS engine.


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## 1969lemans (Mar 4, 2014)

*LS* motors*

My Lemans has a 428 from a 69' Gran Prix, I would never drop a 327SBC or an LS engine in it, I would keep it a Pontiac ofr some kind.

BUT, while I dont agree with the LS swaps into 60's or 70's Pontiacs, each person can put whatever engine that they choose into their car, same goes for suspension, transmissions, interiors, etc.

Each car is a representation of the owners vision, creativity, etc. I put a 57' Chevy sideview mirror on my Lemans (which has a GTO hood and valance) because I thought it looked cooler.

IMO

Eric


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## Hambone1 (Jun 11, 2014)

Since we are all opinionated...here's my 2 cents. Getting down to the root of hot rodding, it's all about swapping parts, making things fit that weren't meant to fit....engine swapping is at the heart of all that. We have been doing that since the dawn of the car. We want them to go faster and be different from the next car guy. If we didn't, we would all be driving white no named cars that were exactly the same. We are all different, it's your car, do what makes you happy, you are the one that is going to be driving it. That's why there are so many choices for the same part out there. If you don't like what I do to my car, oh well....it's mine. Go build your own. Getting back to an LS swap, they are cheaper than building a poncho motor and a proven good, powerful engine choice, that you can beat the snot out of. I should know I have a Poncho powered Lemans and a LS powered late model Goat. Remember we are all united in being car people and should embrace that, instead of kicking each other in the shins. Just my opinion.


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## 1967&2006gto (Apr 17, 2014)

*Relax*

No doubt, from 1955 to 1981 the Pontiac Division of General Motors manufactured its own engines. And I understand your point on the LSx. Fortunately I grew up during that time to witness, live and enjoyed the muscle car era, and love all those Pontiac's, Old's, and Chevy muscle. But arguably, at the end of the day - they are all GM vehicles produced in separate divisions including Holden. Did you know the Tempest used a Buick aluminum motor but later was replaced by the 389. In fact many of these Pontiac first gen motors were used in GMC trucks also. So in retrospective, would you put that GMC engine into a first gen GTO? Yep. Why because it's ok or I am forced to put in an LSx because the first gen motors are hard to find, very expensive, and would not match any of the numbers the vehicle originally came in with. So I am a GM muscle car enthusiast and experienced the variety of these beautiful beasts and I regret every time I see one at a car show regret selling so many of these lovely beasts. I guess so that I may afford and enjoy and afford the next new beauty coming out of GM. Folks back then couldn't wait for the new line up especially the styles coming out of GM in August. Enjoy and Relax!:seeya:


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## Dihappy (Jan 29, 2005)

Fortunately for everyone, it doesnt matter what the next guy thinks unless he/she's judging you on originality.

Otherwise, drop whatever you like into "YOUR" car.


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## APRAIZR (Jul 27, 2009)

OK .... here's the senior citizen approach. I'm 76, Jim Wangers is a personal friend and I too patrolled Woodward from the TeePee to Ted's Drive-in in "the day". That being said, if it were my goal to finish-out an original GTO to my personal taste that car would be powered by an LS engine, in front of the new 6-speed automatic, with a chassis similar to that revealed by Darbikrash. And as he has done (mindful of next owner's potential desire), preserving the original bits. My car, my money, my choice. AND my $.02. 'Bye.


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## Thrillseeker (Oct 16, 2012)

I, personally, would never change out the 389 in my '65 survivor for anything other than Poncho power of like kind and only if the original block was destroyed. A GTO should stay as original as possible IMHO. BUT, to each their own. Whatever cranks your tractor fellas. It's your car so do what you like to it. I have a 1970 Monte Carlo that has a big block from a 72 Suburban in it, so I understand. If it was an SS Monte Carlo I would have left it alone. I like to leave the rare ones like they came from the factory.


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## stumpy (Nov 2, 2011)

*Just my opinion too . . .*

I'm an old schooler. I turned 16 years old in 1964 and walked around all the local Ponco car lots drooling over the new GTOs that year. Loved them ever since and have owned several. The '64 I'm working on now will be the traditional 389, 3 twos and a four speed, though not numbers matching. But, with all that said, who's to say that a new, modern drive train takes away from what is the essence of a muscle car?

Some of my older car buds have 40 Fords with modern v8s (both ford and chevy engines), and they still look and run great. What I'm saying is that as time goes on the way we "restore" our oldies sometimes changes. Some of us who love the old GTOs are old school purists, and some are not. To each his own, I say.


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## rlslavik (Jun 21, 2014)

To each his/her own-
but I know a guy with a 68 GTO looks mint as all get out.
He just trashed the 400 that was in it and is having a CHEVY 454 installed.
I nearly slapped him...

However - if the car is already "tricked out" with numerous aftermarket parts, 
Ricaro seats, digital dash, chrome firewall and inner fenders, 22 inch spinner wheels etc. then who really cares anyway except for a laugh?

I CAN appreciate the amount of work and dedication put into something like that, 
similar to a '34 roadster with a chromed out 350 Chevy, but I would never be caught behind the wheel of that Goat.

Kinda like what Chip Foose does to perfectly good cars.
He better NEVER come near mine...


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## robbie9999 (Feb 21, 2014)

*1966 gto resto mod*

Hmm - interesting topic and I am hard into it 

The car was 1966 GTO original a lost numbers match Im 41 now, had car since 28. for 10 years I made sure it looked all original and kept its heritage, but in 2009 I stopped driving it. piss poor gas milage, bad handling, re jetting the carbs all the time, even with motor re done barely 295 HP at wheels. 

I sold the motor to cat in States we stripped it down reinforced frame, put Ls3 HOTCAM motor tremec 5 speed, coil overs, wilwood brakes, 9 inch rear posi new, all hotckis suspension components

LET ME SAY THIS - ITS DRIVES INCREDIBLE BEYOND ANYTHING AN ORIGINAL CAN DO - it corners brilliant, the new tremec makes you want to drive all day, it goes into a corner amazing !! I SHOULD HAVE DONE IT SOONER - 

I respect the old generation and what it brought driving in for 10 years the way it came from factory, but I am sorry 438HP to the wheels if I can offer any advise convert it you will never be more happier - MY 10 CENTS


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## USArmy1993 (May 10, 2012)

*Old or New -- Having Been there*

Having been born in 1952 and my first car was a 1966 Mustang 289 notch back that always was a chick magnet -- you know when you had hair and good looks and also rode in all the ultimate muscle cars -- 69 RR 440 Six pack, Torino Cobra 428, 68 FB 400, 70 GTX 440, and then drafted into the military and spent time in Germany 6.5 years, new is what I would say a yes to getting the new engines into the old bodies. I have a 1969 Pontiac Custom-S with a 69 Gran Prix 428 that turns 14.1 at 103 in the quarter mile It has a 2.56 Posi, TH400 trans -- no reaction time -- I could easily be in the 13's. But I drive it a lot and like today just got back from a nice 100 mile cruise up to Black River Falls Wisconsin and then out looking at a nice 1968 Conv FB with a 400 -- guy wants too much.
But having lived in Germany for so long and driving the Autobahn every day going to work having a reliable, low pollution motor is the where it is at. We here are very lucky that there is not a TUV inspection -- they would kill off our hot rods, they would be made into KIA's. I have driven as fast as 165 mph going to work and rode with a friend who really wanted to crack 200 with us one Sunday morning but still ran into traffic ( BMW Alpina -- 500 horse ) 
They are so concerned about the pollution aspect and we need to think about this also.
I will be converting my 1969 428 for EFI this next winter and that is not close to what the new motors will do but it is a start.
Eventually as things progress and my wife makes more money -- I am going to retire -- I will probably get the new motor.
Think about this, I am open to conversations as all my friend in Germany -- German's were concerned with my old car polluting so much. I explained that this is not as much the trucks there that spew the pollution from their motors.
Take care and thanks for letting me speak my peace.


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## oldgoat1969 (Jun 14, 2014)

The beauty of living in this country is that everyone has the right to his or her own opinion. I will defend to the death your right to have one. I laugh when I read all of the venom spewed about updating to the LSX drivetrain. I am 56 and remember well going to the dealerships in 1969 with my dad looking at the new cars and being in awe of them. I still love those cars today. I have at current count had 111 cars from full kill street legal race cars to semi exotic euro sports cars to just plain beaters.
I chose to update my 69 ragtop with a supercharged LSX. The car puts over 440 hp to the wheels, will run on pump regular, gets up to 23 mpg if I keep my foot out of itand handles like a slot car. It has A/C, updated PS with a Grand Cherokee box, UMI tubular control arms and QA1 coilovers at all 4 corners, 4 Wheel Baer brakes and Speedhut Can-BUS dash. The car is an unrestored albeit maintained example. And most of all I can drive it anywhere I want. It idles dead smooth never overheats even in heavy traffic with the AC running. Can you say the same about your restored car?
The spirit of Hot Rodding has always been to take an existing car and improve/update to fit modern times whatever the era. It is not like Pontiac only built 5 total GTO's and they are extremely rare. There are plenty of fine restored examples out there to adequately preserve the marque. I will always say do what you wan to your car, you own it, do it your way. If you feel so strongly that I or someone like has so severely violated the car and your tender ego, my all means buy my car and do with it exactly what "YOU" want to do with it


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

The first generation GTO, as stated, is and was about the engine, the horsepower, and the performance. It was a blended image, an essence, a presence, and a perception. Putting a contemporary LS engine into the heart of a classic GTO and trying to say it is better, cheaper, more economical, easier to maintain, and more reliable are relative terms that DON'T describe a true GTO, but rather, a different generation's spin on the classic.

The classic GTO can indeed be a handful -its a brute. It required YOU to drive it. It was a testament of your skill, reflexes, and the size of your gonads. If you weren't a great driver, the torque and power on tap "right now" could bite -there was no wussy "econo power mode" button. Brakes and handling could be tricky, but if you owned a GTO, you drove the GTO, and you knew what it was capable of and what it wasn't, so you learned its limits. Handling it was part of owning it. If you owned a GTO, you were the one most likely under the hood getting your hands dirty or swapping parts for more speed and power. You didn't take it to a dealership or garage because if you did, what would be the sense in owning something you didn't understand?........you'd by a Chevy small block instead so you would fit in with the masses who too did not know anything about their cars either. Wrenching was part of owning it. There was a certain presence about owning a GTO that has been told again and again on these pages. It commanded attention, intrigue, awe, respect, envy, and concern to anyone who was up for the challenge. It conjured up an image that only a muscle car could, just as a Cadillac or Lincoln used to. It spoke words without even saying one. IT WAS A MAN'S MAN CAR.:thumbsup:

Yes, today's cars are infinity better. Better handling, better steering, better braking, better engines systems, better transmissions, better interiors, better economy, and certainly better life expectancy. But you don't "drive" these cars as there is virtually no effort needed to point and go. They have low torque and high RPM's so you can't get into too much trouble. Are there faster cars today. I say yes, a ton of them, but looking at $38,000 and up to have something that will beat a GTO is not much to brag about. Let me put, $35,000, $40,000, $50,000, $75,000 into a numbers matching GTO and my guess is I'd be smoking whatever dollar for dollar car we matched up.(Knew a guy many years back who made a bet he could out corner a vette with a van. He modified the van suspension, raced the corvette, and beat him -so you can make the "old" chasiss work if that's your goal) You want to talk turbo? I bet a twin turbo Pontiac would shut down any LS you put up against it. Check out the U-tube videos of the Big Chief Twin Turbo Pontiac outlaw racing street car. Pontiacs offer cubic inches, so you really can't compare the LS to the Pontiac equipped car because the Pontiac equipped car HAS the potential and more to slap down the LS if one cares to invest in it.:smash: So it goes back to apples and oranges if we compare the two.

If you don't get it, you never will. What a shame. I'm so glad I was able to experience such an era and enjoy what a true GTO represented. The LS guys never will and think they did. Very sad.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Hooray for Pontiac Jim!!! (Two thumbs up) My hat is off to you and I salute you, Sir. Yes, lots of ways to 'civilize' and 'modernize' an old brute, if one is so inclined. I'm not one of those guys, though.....I like it raw and visceral. I like to work for my exitement. Sweeter reward in the end. Very well said, indeed. If I wanted an LS I'd buy a modern car that came with it......but I don't want one. I shave with a mug and brush and drink my bourbon straight, too. No umbrellas in _my _cocktails......


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## oldgoat1969 (Jun 14, 2014)

I forgot to mention a small detail. I have a total of about $5500.00 in my drivetrain. Supercharged LS, 4L60E and all. Duplicate the result with a classic Pontiac engine and see how much you spend. I owned and operated an engine machine shop for many years, I know what it costs to make 440 rwhp in a Pontiac, and don't even talk about 23 mpg in the same sentence let alone the same book. But to each his own.


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## 66goatframeoff (Nov 8, 2011)

Your money your car your build do it your way my way PONTIAC till the day I die but that's MY WAY.


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## bw5500 (Sep 1, 2013)

*LS engines*

my 65 GTO has the original 389, and I am planning to build a big inch stroker PONTIAC engine to go in at some point.
my 55 ford has a later model 5.0 FORD engine in it, with aftermarcket injection, 
my early V12 Jag has a later model BIG CUBE Stroker JAG v12 in process, etc. etc.
that being said, if I were to build a Tempest, or a Studebaker, a Jeep, or an International pickup, or any MOPAR :lolr just about anything else, (including any more jaguars...) it would get a late model GM LS Engine, and it would be fuel injected, not do a carby conversion. those LS motors ROCK!!
Bob


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## Ponchohoncho (Sep 17, 2011)

Since you asked for my opinion, here it is. My first car was a '64 tri-power 389cid GTO. After military service, my next Pontiac was a Trans-Am with a George DeLorean built b&b Ram Air IV. At present I own an '06 GTO with an LSX std. deck 408 at 13:1 static compression, TH400, and Moser Fab 9 sra with triangulated 4-link. I loved all of my cars, but I have to say that that the '06 would have wasted any of my 'classics'. I have absolutely no problem with an LS swap into an older GTO, unless that older GTO is a pristine example of a classic collectible, in which case it shouldn't be changed from its OEM configuration. There is no denying the technological edge of the LS engine, it just is a superior platform.


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## Ponchohoncho (Sep 17, 2011)

And yes, I grew up around Detroit, Woodward Ave., Telegraph Rd, and Gratiot. I graduated in 1968 from H.S. and preferred taking my goat out to cruise with the packs of muscle cars on those streets rather than taking a girl to a movie, lol. That was a special era, never to be repeated, that I was privileged to be a part of. I had the honor of knowing not only George DeLorean, but also Jack Roush (small shop in Livonia), Sam Gianino, Mike Fons (MoTown Muscle), Steve Lisk, and on and on. I lived through the muscle car heyday, man. Sunoco 260 (110 octane?) at the pump was like $.59/gal. Loved my RAIV, but this is different day, and the technology is way better. And for all the purists out there: "Give it a rest, man!"


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## mechanic58 (Nov 21, 2006)

The LSX engines are certainly great engines that make good power, stock, get good fuel economy and have almost unlimited power output potential...however, I personally would not put one in a vintage muscle car. For one thing, they look like hell - and look even worse when installed in vintage iron. Vintage engines can produce just as much hp as the new-fangled ones can. If I had an old GTO I was building up, I'd be looking for a period-correct mill to put in it. Hell, I'd even put a period correct Buick, Olds or Cadillac in it before I'd put an LS motor in it. Just my $.02


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## TheVetteDoctors (Mar 29, 2006)

ALKYGTO said:


> Beautiful GTO there VetteDoctor! I gotta ask though.....Is it LS powered or Pontiac Powered?
> 
> So, How many of you "heretics" (I'm one!) get asked when the hood is shut whether or not your Pontiac is Pontiac Powered?


Sorry guys but my goat has an LS7 427 edelbrock super charged motor drove her from ny to texas last year and got 26 mpg can't do that with an old school engine


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Can't say anything that hasn't already been said. 
Crusty's car is gorgeous. I followed the trials and tribulations of that build on here for a couple years. His skill with carbon fiber and his ability to envision pieces that flow together are second to none. I'm sure it sounds sweet, goes and handles like all get-out but at the end of the day when I look under the hood, I lose interest. The LS engine is not an attractive power plant to look at, sorry. I need the visual stimulation of an engine that APPEARS original to go with the car. None of the engines in my collection of junk are original but they are period correct in appearance.

Ponchohonco, telling the purists to give it a break......if it weren't for the purists these vintage, classic, whatever cars may no longer exist for the "resto-mod' crowd to "enhance". I'm wondering how well your extensive mods will hold up in 40 years and how strong the desire by the people then will be to obtain it. 

I've read the LSx is the "flavor of the day" engine choice right now and agree. Who knows what the next engine of choice will be in another 30-40 years. It might run on water, get 100 miles to the gallon and still go like hell ??? What will all these conversions be worth then ??? 

The muscle era was timeless. Some things from the past need to be preserved as they were for the next generations to see, even if they don't appreciate what they are seeing.


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## 06LGOAT (Dec 9, 2013)

*Freedom of Choice*

I am so done with the vintage GTO crowd badmouthing everything post 1979-Pontiac as not Pontiac. As for putting an LS motor into a classic GOAT from '64-'71, I'm all for it. Of course I feel that if the original engine is present, it should be removed and kept safe for future considerations. This in no different than the conundrum facing the Vette guys when it came to even touching a vintage Corvette-especially the beloved mid-year cars. For decades if you so much as swapped out an OEM muffler, you could be ostracized, beaten and shot for it.
Now all you see is beautifully resto-moded, pro-touring LS equipped examples crossing the auction block and fetching high six-figure selling prices.
To say that the LS powerplants are not true Pontiac mills, is an ignorant and uninformed statement. Since 1998 when the LS1 first found it's way into the 4th Gen Firebirds, then LS2's powering the '05,'06 GTO and LS3's in the last great Poncho the G8, tens of thousands of LS mills have been equipping Pontiacs. The LS is a corporate engine, not a Chevy only engine. It's time for the aging Pontiac faithful to open their hearts and minds to the fact that even though it's not blue in color and produced by the division, it is still as Pontiac as you can get. Instaed of scoffing at it, perhaps the reality that it's the same mill powering the Corvette should be taken as a huge compliment. As a former contributor to HPP mag, I've met several vintage GTO owners who have replaced their original motors with LS based crate engines or examples pulled out of donor cars, with nothing but pleasureable results.
The very fact that the GTO is now being resto-moded is a testament to it's longevity, style, appeal and following- not an insult to it's integrity as a true American icon. I say- to each their own, the LS engine is argueably the greatest smallblock motor ever devised and produced in all it's iterations.
With the untimely demise of our beloved division, all Pontiac fans should come together in appreciation for the cars taht were produced by the excitement division, not quibble about what some decide to do with their cars. Last I checked this is still America, where freedom of choice rules.
Oh and by the way, I own an '06 Australian built, Monaro-based GTO, and it's a Pontiac through and through.
As is my Canadian built '02 WS6 Ram Air TA.:rant:


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## joxenford (Mar 22, 2013)

*04 gto ls1 swap into my 66 gto*

I swapped out my tired, slow, 389 for a 2004 Pontiac LS 1 with auto transmission. It was the best modification I have done with this beautiful black GTO convertible. It wasn't matching numbers and all I talked to reported I'd love the LS 1. So, I started looking for a GTO LS 1 and finally found one. 
It's a great engine and transmission and performs excellently. I disagree with many of the posts as I like to drive my GTO and the LS 1 is much better economically because of the improved mpg and performance. I doubt many of you could beat it. I also put in an Auburn limited slip rear with 3:73-1 ratio.
It's fast, so in conclusion, I like the swap idea if you have a GTO LS 1 to put in.


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## maktope (May 22, 2013)

Keep on hearing you loose the heart and soul by swapping the motors. I grew up in city that was founded as a fur trading outpost turned into lumber mecca then finally a gm town. Now there is no fur trading no lumber steer and gear is now a Chinese company. Heart and soul of the city is still there, just because what pushed the city has changed its still there. My house was built in 1840. Should we and previous owners left it how it was? Adding electricity plumbing heat does that remove the heart and soul? I get confused by what's Ok and what's not. 12 bolt no problem, headers aluminum heads after market intake and carb, forged pistons and rods so on and so forth all made for a pontiac but not by pontiac. Only pontiac part on my engine is the block. I saw a few posts about chiefs gto, the way I see it that motor is a butler not a pontiac. Not one piece of that motor is pontiac let alone gm. How is that OK but an ls isnt. In my eyes the heart and soul of these cars are the owners. Owners kept the car alive. Owners put in work sweat hard earned money to live what ever idea they have. I have two quotes for engines currently one from butler for a "pontiac" [email protected],589 one for a 427 lsx @11,500 both put out same power. It's hard not to look at the lsx, and it will still be a 69 gto with an lsx maybe not in some of your minds but in mine it will be


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## Lovetoweld (Nov 26, 2013)

*Love the Poncho Blocks*

Truer words were never spoken I to am in my mid 50s when I was 18 to 25 yrs old I had 3 first gen GTOs love the HP torq sound and most of all the Explosive response when the CHwwwAA Quadrajet opened up:eek2: if your going to build an old Goat keep it all Pontiac. Don't Get me wrong I own an 04 and an 05.The 05 is procharged and is putting 585Hp on the ground 25 MPG Highway 18 around town, it's the fastest car I've ever own or driven But there is nothing like a MEAN OLD GOAT :cheers


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## Tropical Goat (Jan 30, 2011)

Oftentimes, folks and cars live through all kinds of different circumstances that, for better or worse, dictate their direction.
I'm inclined towards keeping the old Pontiacs, Pontiac powered, for the full (even if sometimes flawed) flavor of what real Pontiacs were like.
Yet alas, I have sinned in the past... In the early 80's we (my brother and I) put an Olds 455 (from my dads totaled 70 Delta 88) in our 66 GTO, when the original & tired 389 spun a bunch of bearings, and with no budget (we were still high school kids) we proceeded to have all kinds of street fun with that torquey Olds, even took it to the track and ran high street tire 12s.(Later we scored a fresh 77 Trans Am 400 short block, and installed the 389s heads and intake, and while it felt more hardcore and rev happy than the Olds, it was stolen and totaled before we could take it to the strip.
Later (in the 90s) we put a Buick 455\TH400 (100.00 from a junked 70 Riv.) into what's now my 67 GTO while the original 400 sat in pieces all over the garage. Now the Buick mill is in my brothers 66 Chevelle 300 Deluxe giving the local "Chevy only" guys fits, because its running really hard. Meanwhile I finally rebuilt my GTOs numbers matching, still stock bore 400, using one of Jim Hands Pontiac book recommended combos, including porting the heads and intake myself with great results,.. it takes off real hard and has very rapid acceleration clean past 6600 rpm (an ARP bolted, stock rods, time bomb, I know) but still a blast! So, ok, a well set up LS may come over and may handily beat me at any moment...I don't care! I'm not in it to be faster than everyone else. Yet I'll still be capable of plenty, it's the raw, primitive feel of Poncho beast that satisfies me most.
Do I feel I need an LS?...No. Would I put one in my beloved Goat? I can only hope that I never need to, in other words, I'm not saying no, because you never know what circumstances lay ahead, and it is a damn good mill. In any case I'll be bringing my rev limiter down to try and make my Pontiac last.
So, bottom line...If I had the necessary "disposable" income, my choice would be to keep my old Poncho purebred all the way, and if I wanted to go really fast, I'd happily put whatever it takes into the Pontiac mill, and maybe even go pick on some LS cars.
...but that's all in Fantasyland for me, so what might actually happen is, at some point, I might wind up with an LS or whatever is available at the time just to keep it "alive" .
Of course, as someone else here implied, I'd try to score B.O.P. and Caddy engines first, just for the underdog fun of not having yet another s. b. Chevy.
This mindset and the circumstantial realities of life have resulted in some weird combos to come about...like for example, I actually first installed that 455 Buick (now in my brothers 66 Chevelle) into a 73 Challenger for a while!.. ran great too!
You see, the thing is that, for us average (below average?) Joes, it often comes down to what's available at the time. Does this make me an automotive slob? Well, maybe, but we're very happy, fun loving slobs! 
In the end, life is too short to be taking this brand loyalty thing too seriously, after all it's been said that engines don't know what brand they are anyway. I can only say, more power to everyone here, because in the end we're all just having good American muscle fun, whatever the brand.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

geeteeohguy said:


> Hooray for Pontiac Jim!!! (Two thumbs up) My hat is off to you and I salute you, Sir. Yes, lots of ways to 'civilize' and 'modernize' an old brute, if one is so inclined. I'm not one of those guys, though.....I like it raw and visceral. I like to work for my exitement. Sweeter reward in the end. Very well said, indeed. If I wanted an LS I'd buy a modern car that came with it......but I don't want one. I shave with a mug and brush and drink my bourbon straight, too. No umbrellas in _my _cocktails......


geeteeohguy, we are of the same mold.:biggrin2: These guys just don't get it! Never will! This is the same crowd that would rip out the boiler in a steam engine and tell you the new diesel they just fitted in it is so much better -its faster, gets better fuel mileage, easier to maintain, is cleaner, doesn't throw cinders out the stack, and its quieter. The expression "live steam" has no meaning to them and they have no concept that this behemoth mass of engineered (the Shay with its crankshaft driven trucks) and sculpted iron (love those "J" engines) has a soul born of the men who lovingly created it and built it as it snorts steam, consumes fuel & water like an addiction out of control, and will out pull, YES OUT PULL, a diesel. Even as it sits idle in waiting, to hear the creaking and panging of the riveted plates expanding and contracting, the fire being stoked by its blower, and the steam pressure valves blowing off wisps of steam can't even come close to the sounds of a diesel engine. You either get it or you don't.

These are the guys who would resto-mod a WWII P-51 Mustang because the old 12 cyl Allison was a relic, consumed fuel like a drunken sailor, had to be manually set to adjust too many things like the idle circuits, manifold vacuum, supercharger, and throttle position. And the noise, well........way to loud to enjoy the P-51 anyway. In its place they would rather install a converted air-cooled VW engine with a prop reduction gear drive. It is way cheaper than the cost of building an Allison, parts are easier to get and you can get a VW engine in any junkyard for $500, its air cooled so you don't have to worry about springing a leak if you pop a head gasket, it doesn't have all those manual control settings you have to fiddle with to get it to run correctly, and it is quieter so I can listen to my custom Bose stereo, and the LED gauges are so much better than the boring factory stuff. Of course it is more economical to fly with the VW engine -and the performance with that lighter engine, well....... You either get it or you don't.

These are the guys who question whether or not we went to the moon and why anyway? You either get it or you don't.

Just my two cents on all the posts thus far. Some of you get it. Some of you won't. So sad, so verrrrrry sad.

PS, Let's not tell them what a "Cackle Fest" is because they would simply poo-poo it.


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## maktope (May 22, 2013)

No, we get it. We understand but we don't call you crazy and insane and so on for what you believe. We don't question you on why are you paying so much to have your motor rebuilt. It seems almost like we the ls supporters are looked down on by the "purist". I have a poncho motor and yes I am debating an lsx, but the doesn't mean I don't get it. Your boiler you mentioned I worked 5 years in a boiler house and I wouldn't want to touch that darn thing. Yes it's cool yes it has history maintaining consistency is why it's gone. Consistancy/efficiency. Some people are used to modern tech it's meets those standards. Our old ponchos can meet those standards for a lot more money for the average joe. My gto is my daily driver, got two kids work over 70 hrs a week. When I have time off I can't spend it wrenching for the most part. So looking for something where I can keep my dream car but still use it daily is disagreeable sorry, but it doesn't mean I don't get it. I have no problem having you disagree with me, but because of a difference in opinion on a hobby I get lumped in a generalization about what in life I don't get. This is the problem with the Internet. A paragraph here and there and you think you know somebody. I hope one day to run into you at a bar pull up a stool order us a round and talk, let you see exactly what I get. There are a lot of knowledgeable people on this post and many of you have helped me directly with answers or indirectly with previous posts. So I get it your a walking book of knowledge and love of your brand your style. But please don't lump all of us together and say we don't get it.


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## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

It doesn't mater who "gets it" and who doesn't, and frankly I think 2 recurring opinions are cop outs: "It's your car so do what you want..." and ""Swapping parts is what hot rodding is all about so...". I never found either to be an opinion, almost more like a defensive answer derived from not having one. I see this in another forum that salutes traditional days of high performance. A 34 Ford hiboy with an LS, 18" wheels, IFS, IRS, electronic F.I., billet steering wheel and engine dress, digital gauges and a modern flashy color. Of course it's what the owners might build for themselves, but it's not 1 iota of "traditional". Take that same car and fit it with an early HEMI/Nailhead/Pontiac/Olds/Cadillac/flathead Ford, 16" steel wheels, modified stock suspension, period color, period gauges. Will it pull 1G on a skid pad? Who cares! Park the oldie next to the new one, the oldie gets all the attention because the other has been DONE TO DEATH. 

This also has NOTHING to do with a kid's interpretation of a dreaded "rat rod", or any other generation of builder. It has to do with where the original spirit begins and ends. For us it began with a mid-sized car stuffed with a big motor. Mickey Thompson started with early versions and rocked A/FX with converted 'rope shaft' Tempests sportin 421s. The next phase was found on the showroom floor. Nostalgia? For some yes, for others no, but for all it really is a history lesson in real live iron and fossil fuel. I wouldn't trade my Duramax for a Mack inline and wouldn't trade my Model A pickup for a new F-150 with Eco Boost. There is a difference in the old vs the new and for many the difference is the juice. It was said that there's no right or wrong here which is spot on. If one were to "get it" for real, that's it. But this old bastid's opinion is that big hoops are best left in the 'hood and new engines are great for new cars. I want the smells, the squeal of rubber around a corner, the minor body roll, the heavy feel of the clutch and steering, and most of all the sound that emanates from all of it. I can't wait for pro touring to go the way of pro street. A "day 2" car seems to be gaining steam now, much like traditional hot rods seem to dominate the street rod sandbox these days. Do I truly hate the LS/18" wheel cars with big brakes? Not in the least, but you'll never see one in my shop or garage unless I'm being paid to do it for a client. As to the right and wrong mentioned here and in the above opinions, well I think the wheel thing really is sorta wrong. Big hoops visually 'shorten' the look of the wheelbase and visually 'raise' the hgt of the car's profile. When you step away 20 or 30 feet, turn around and look back at the car it's plain to see. Earlier cars suffer that worse than muscle cars do but it's still there. My old goat has 2 sets of aftermarket wheels, both 14" versions of 5 spokes and slots that clear the early Chevelle disc brakes. Heresy? Not even close. Hypocrite? Even further away. Nothing wrong with safer brakes and traditional looks in my book. I actually prefer "day 2" to showroom new any day of the week and twice on Sunday. 

This is a bichin topic and I've really enjoyed it so far. Thanks to all and to the OP for makin it happen.


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## ope28 (Feb 14, 2013)

My son and I are restoring a 67 GTO HO convertible. Because it is an HO, we are doing everything as close to original as possible. I will admit though, I am a purist. If the car was a bad ass from the factory, I want it bone stock. Now a Solstice with an LS....that's a hot rod!!
My son will inherit this GTO. Ask the same question when he owns it, and you may get a whole different answer.


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## pcguy (Jul 7, 2014)

It is interesting to note what sells well at auction and what tends to sell "for not so much" and how it might be that the builder came to make the decision to create the lot that's for sale.

Many original classics go for cheap while many restomods go for big bucks Some original classics go for big bucks and most restomods go for big bucks.

Most original classics and most restomods go for less than the sum of the parts without including the labor.

It's all about the chase and the process (most frequently the bottom line will have some bearing on the process) and frankly each situation is different and only you know what to do - others' opinions shouldn't matter, but your experiences, budget and desires will dictate.

There is no one absolute path...


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Correct, pcguy. Asking which way to go is subjective. Some guys like antiques and some like the latest electronic gizmo. Just the way it is. Me, I'm just thankful that I don't give a hoot what I could sell my GTO's for, or what they'd bring. It's not why I bought them in the first place. I bought them over 30 years ago because I always loved them. Since my first car (a '66 GTO) I've always owned and driven GTO's. The most money I _ever_ paid for one was 2k back in 1992 for a 4 speed '65, which I sold for $2700 the next year. For some of us, it was never about the money. It's all about driving a special old car. The way I figure it, having a sum total of about 8-10k into both my GTO's (not each, but both cars), it's a win-win even if they aren't resto-modded. Buy car for $1200 -$1800. Drive car for 30+ years, regularly, and repair as needed. Have same cars, use in the same manner, 30+ years later. Only now, the cars are worth roughly 20 times the purchase price. Not a bad deal at all, even for a non-resto moded car.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

666bbl :cheers! You hit that one right out of the ball park.

maktope - not trying to label anyone as crazy or insane, just simply point out that some of you are not firing on all eight Pontiac cylinders.:nonod:

I have stated my opinions based on my experiences, the experiences of others, and facts. The classic GTO was first offered as an option, repeat OPTION, on the Pontiac Tempest Lemans and based on the Pontiac 389. Here is a quote directly from the June 1964 Car Life road test of the then new 1964 GTO as used in evidence, "What sets the GTO off from its Tempest factory-mate is, to begin with, its *engine*. Where the Tempest has a 215-cu. in. 6-cyl for standard power, *the GTO has the bigger Pontiac's 389-cu. in. V-8*; where the Tempest offers two 326-cu. in. V-8s (250 and 280 bhp, depending upon compression ratio and carburetion) as options, *the GTO has a 348-bhp V-8 for its engine alternate*. The standard engine has a single 4-barrel carburetor and the optional three 2-barrels."

So how much clearer do I need to be? The GTO option offered on the Tempest Lemans was about getting the 389CI -which makes the GTO and 389CI synonymous. Did you see any options for the 326CI in a GTO? NO. A GTO cannot be a GTO without the 389CI, period. Later this would change to become the 400CI and 455CI with the aftermarket installation of the 1968 428CI by the Royal Pontiac Dealership.

Installing an LS engine in a GTO simply creates an imposter that is no longer representative of the GTO as it disguises itself in the bowels of what was once rightfully carved out by a Pontiac powerplant. Woe to those who argue their folly that the LS engine is a GM engine and the GTO is a GM car. To you sir I can only point out that Fruit of the Loom makes both mens and women's underwear and even though they have the same manufacturer, they are clearly different. I can only assume that you would argue the point that there is no difference because they are both made by Fruit of the Loom and you sir, are probably wearing your chevy orange panties right now.

There is no argument or side to be taken that will ever justify the installation of a Chevy engine into a first generation GTO as a viable alternative to the factory installed Pontiac powerplant. The Pontiac engine made the GTO. The GTO was made by its engine. Its that simple. And oh, your panty lines are showing through.:smilielol:


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

At the time(`64), the LeMans was the smallest car Pontiac made, and then they stuffed the big B body car engine into it. The 389 (with the Tri-Power) to create the "Muscle Car".


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## maktope (May 22, 2013)

I will never make the ls= gm, gm= pontiac argument. Simply put the ls crate motor comes Chevy orange. And yes side by side apples to apples I'll take a restored correct pontiac over a resto/mod any day. And yes when I talk to car people I say I have a 69 gto but the motor came out a 69 grand prix. I don't hide the fact I don't have a gto motor. What I get lost at is all the non pontiac after market parts everyone throws on and that's acceptable, but putting a non pontiac motor in is where the line is drawn. If the stars align I will have that butler motor I mentioned, and yes I prefer a pontiac or a pontiac based motor in my car. Just I am not opposed to go in a different direction. Now if I had a 400 under the hood and I had the original interior and original rear end, Ok not even original but period correct I would not even think about an ls motor. But in my situation cats out the bag. And I don't have an extra 20 to bring it to "correct" and I agree with you that there isn't a magic wand that makes all gm the same. My whole family worked for gm standard holiday talk was my uncle 70 gto original power plant, my dad two nova's one 66 one 68 427 454 dropped in. And my uncle who married in and his Mopar . They would argue all night until they ended up in the street. Grandpa was a cop grandma worked at dispatch. So I didn't grow up in the muscle car era but I grew up with muscle cars. And with that difference of opinions my dad the engineer, drop the latest and greatest in there and go, his brother don't touch it and let it be. Gto got traded for a formula firebird which got traded for a chevell ss. I grew up with both sides so it's easy for me to look at other options. Second I bought the car my dad started drop a 427 in there. On the flip side I just bought a beat up and I mean beat up 66 gto. And it's a project I plan on doing with my kids over the next 10 years and yes I am putting a 389 in It. So I do understand. If I could get my 428 rebuild for what it costs to rebuild a Chevy I would. But I lack the know how and the skill to do it myself. That puts me at a disadvantage most of you on here have superior know how and skills.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

First off I would like to thank PontiacJim for starting this thread. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading everyone's opinion on this topic. I can tell that PJ really feels passionate about this topic and has presented valid reasons to support how he feels. While I don't agree with everything presented, I respect his views (and those of the other purists) I especially enjoyed the fruit of the loom analogy. That one had me rolling on the floor.

The funny thing I have noticed is that it keeps being said that the differences presented are generational. The closer you read, that does not seem to be the case. I talked this over with my father (who turned 70 this week), and he loves the resto-mod concept. Like others, he loves the style of the old cars but does not feel like working under the hood all the time. One of his favorite cars that shows up to local cruise nights is a 57 Corvette that has a TPI engine out of a late 80's early 90's Corvette. This car has been around for years so I guess it would be an original resto-mod survivor? I remember this being a very popular swap for the 50's Corvettes and 4x4 Blazers. Now admittedly, most of these original resto-mods are now gone and this Vette is the only one I regularly see with that old of technology. So, there is a lot of truth being discussed about these resto-mods not being timeless like the originals were (i agree entirely on this).

Here is where I am going with this. The resto-mod moment started with the Corvette (agree?) and only caught on to the muscle car's recently. There is a very obvious reason for this. The first engines used in what would be a resto-mod was the TPI engine which had way more power and was much more reliable than the old Corvette power plants were. There would be no reason to swap a TPI into a muscle car. That would be almost as bad as the guy who installed an inline six in a GTO. The muscle cars were left out of the beginning of the resto-mod movement because there were no modern engines that put out the same power as what was already under the hood. That all changed with the LS motors. These things have tons of power right out of the box and are easily upgraded to double (or more) their output. All of a sudden there was an alternative to the muscle car engine. And depending upon your wants and needs, it is a pretty good alternative.

I am a middle of the road guy on this topic. My Lemans has a 400 Pontiac under the hood. I have no plans what so ever to change this. If anything catastrophic was to happen, I would find another Pontiac motor to replace the one that lives in the car now. That being said, I would not turn my nose up at Crusty's car if I ever see it out on the road or anyone else who goes through the LS swap. 

I still don't agree with all the hate towards red cars on here!


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I know a guy or two that put Pinto motors in their Model A Fords. Popular 'upgrade' in the '70's. Nobody wants them now. An LS engine is a cheap, disposable power module meant for cheap, disposable cars. All new cars are appliances. I know. I work on them all the time. They are great cars. They go 300,000 miles. But then you throw them away. Like television sets. Nobody overhauls them anymore. Cheaper to buy another. In 30 years, _nobody_ will want an outdated, stone-age-non-repairable-electronics LS powered car. They WILL want a Pontiac powered car that you can still jump the battery, pour some gas down the carb, and start it up. Class always ages well. The Trend of the Moment rarely does. Look at the Pet Rock. Beanie Babies. Pogs. Pro Stock....ho hum.....


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## maktope (May 22, 2013)

Although i agree with you that class ages well, it is apparent it does. The people who will put LS in will also change it when it becomes outdated. Disposable correct cheap alternative i agree. And for those reasons is why i am looking at it. I would not drop an ls in and sell my poncho motor. Just like i wish i had my original interior. Kicking myself right now for selling my ramair IV exhaust manifolds should have just boxed them up. But for the price and what i want to do the ls just makes a lot of sense as a gap stop. race the car for a couple years and when that wears off, drop a 400 back in and have a wonderfull classic. I dont want to pay top dollar to beat up a motor in a car that i plan on leaving to my kids. Hell i felt so strongly about leaving it to my son and he loves it so much when i found out we are having the 2nd child i bout a second GTO. Make sure they both get one. Its a love that we all share and its a love we want to pass down, so thats why i understand pontiac jim's point. Let the kids know about the past the history and so on. At the same time i didnt grow up street racing muscle cars against muscle cars. And i am not really one to take alot of risk since wife is a stay at home mom, so its the track for me. I want to run the crap out the car but i dont want to kill it. Enter LSX into the conversation. And like i previously said i would not hide the fact it wasnt pontiac powered that would be false advertisement. But if i could pull the motor over the winter rebuild it myself and drop it in during the spring, lsx wouldnt even be an option. but we dont really have winters here and i dont have that skill set


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

While I have never seen the Model T Pinto combo, I will share a couple of strange combinations I have seen over the years. How about a Model A with a Buick turbo 6 from an 80's GN? My neighbor put an Olds 350 in a 64 Chevy pick up. Or there is my favorite. Back in the early 80's my Dad's cousin put the entire drive train from a 79 blazer under a 30 Ford coupe. Yes, it was a 4x4. That thing was really cool. He used to bring it to Cape Cod and run it on the beaches.


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## 67goat (Oct 27, 2006)

Have not read all these posts, but have one thing to add. I knew a guy that was running a 427 Chevy in his 67 Tempest (post coupe). I have a 428 Pontiac in my 67 GTO. Both cars running factory iron blocks and heads, thus both cars matched in nearly every aspect, except mine actually weight quite a bit more. Thus perfect match for Chevy vs. Pontiac. Bottom line - running at the track, my car is faster (and still getting faster) :smile2: Chevy guys only answer is that they'll have to come back next time with a bigger engine.


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## KarliniSmeagol11 (Apr 21, 2013)

*Old School*

"Little GTO, you're really lookin' fine
Three deuces and a four-speed and a 389
Listen to her tachin' up now, listen to her why-ee-eye-ine
C'mon and turn it on, wind it up, blow it out GTO"

I like the idea of keeping the original engines and admire all who can work on repair and maintain these machines -- though I don't have a problem with anyone changing out their engine if they wanted too and admire the skill to do that as well - but the car is not the same when it's done - it is not as great - like putting a different face on the Mona Lisa - maybe a prettier face - but not the original art form? 

I have an 06 GTO with the LS 2 and it is a lovely spice red - hope it irritates all the red car haters when they see it. :smile2:


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## silversport (Mar 23, 2007)

who could hate Spice Red...and I am not a fan of red cars but Spice Red is beautiful...

Bill


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## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

I'd die a happy man if I never heard "Little GTO" again. Just sayin...


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## Tropical Goat (Jan 30, 2011)

I know what you mean,... It really fell from grace for me when my older brother took his kids to Chucky Cheese and he told me there was an animal band playing it, and a bunch of chickens were singing the "wah wah" chorus!


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Tropical Goat, that was the LS Engine version of Little GTO. Fits Perfectly.


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## Dudeman (Jun 6, 2012)

I think their is a place for everything. Creativity should not be limited to strict guidelines based on predicted end values or some adhearance strictly to what was original. Both have their place.

Its not what you do to your ride, its how well you do it. The attention to detail, and the quality of your work will make or break any project.


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## Nightshade 68 HO (Mar 11, 2014)

There was a huge stink when the "Corporate Engines" first appeared in the 1970's. A bunch of brand loyal folks brought suit against GM and the case ended up in the New York State Court of Appeals, our highest court.

I for one, rather see a Pontiac Engine in a Pontiac, a Flathead in a 32 Duce coupe, and a 440 Wedge in a Mopar. 

I was not around when these cars were new, but I still think nothing sounds like a nice Pontiac engine, be it a 389, 421, 400, or a 455. In my own car, I am sticking with the stock block and heads, just because I LOVE seeing GTO's with a stock appearing engine bay....


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## Knuckledragger (Nov 25, 2011)

I haven't read every post, but may be a rare bird. I am the second owner of my 65 GTO and have not felt any kind of shame in putting a Chevy 454 in the engine bay. This is after having rebuilt the original 389 in 1973, installing a 400 a year or so later, a Chevy 427 L88 in 1977 (the drag racing year), 396 in 1980 (for commuting), then building the 454 in 1980. It sat in storage until I got a divorce in 1992, then I fired it up to move it.

I do not intend to sell the car, my son now drives it from time to time, and I cannot really think of a good reason to put a Pontiac engine back in. The Ponchos made some good HP, but in order to be competitive, one had to spend cubic dollars to find some Ram Air IV heads. Pontiac high performance parts were always hard to find and pricey, considering how easy it still is to get Chevy SB or BB parts. 

I can't remember how many new curse words I invented while trying to install headers on the Pontiac engines, exhaust ports pointing to the floor and having to fish around trying to start threading the bolts. I get worked up just thinking about it 45 years later. Then trying to change an oil filter with the header tubes wrapped all around it. Always ended up driving 3 miles burning off oil spilled on the tubes, smoking up the neighborhood.

Go ahead and put an LS motor in, have fun! I would be happy to buy a beer for anyone who has plopped a Chrysler Hemi into the engine bay.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Knuckledragger said:


> I haven't read every post, but may be a rare bird. I am the second owner of my 65 GTO and have not felt any kind of shame in putting a Chevy 454 in the engine bay. This is after having rebuilt the original 389 in 1973, installing a 400 a year or so later, a Chevy 427 L88 in 1977 (the drag racing year), 396 in 1980 (for commuting), then building the 454 in 1980. It sat in storage until I got a divorce in 1992, then I fired it up to move it.
> 
> I do not intend to sell the car, my son now drives it from time to time, and I cannot really think of a good reason to put a Pontiac engine back in. The Ponchos made some good HP, but in order to be competitive, one had to spend cubic dollars to find some Ram Air IV heads. Pontiac high performance parts were always hard to find and pricey, considering how easy it still is to get Chevy SB or BB parts.
> 
> ...


The key word I am hearing from you is that chevy engines are cheap. So are Fords.:thumbsup: Then you say "Pontiac high performance parts were always hard to find and pricey." You shot yourself in the foot by listing all those "cheap" chevy big blocks you put in the '65, especially the L88. My guess is you had more money invested in the "cheap" stuff than what you would have put into a single, and well prepped, "pricey" Pontiac engine -you might have only needed just the one of them.

Getting all frustrated with the Pontiac headers and spilling oil all over your tubes doesn't seem to justify not liking Pontiac engines. Maybe you simply didn't have the right knowledge on how to install them. With regards to the oil filter complaint; 1.) Pontiac made a filter adapter that rotated the filter at a 45 degree angle, 2.) Could have used a smaller diameter/smaller length oil filter -which is available, 3.) Could have installed an aftermarket remote oil filter kit. When you get frustrated, solutions that are right in front of you seem to become invisible.

Good news. There are available many aftermarket complete rotating assemblies, blocks, aluminum heads, assorted intakes, and lots of cams -rollers too. Is it cheap? Well, is horsepower ever cheap? A GTO without a Pontiac mill is no longer a GTO.:nonod: Perhaps you might do some research and consider dropping in another Pontiac engine -the potential for high HP is available.:bannana:


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## Knuckledragger (Nov 25, 2011)

PontiacJim said:


> The key word I am hearing from you is that chevy engines are cheap. So are Fords.:thumbsup: Then you say "Pontiac high performance parts were always hard to find and pricey." You shot yourself in the foot by listing all those "cheap" chevy big blocks you put in the '65, especially the L88. My guess is you had more money invested in the "cheap" stuff than what you would have put into a single, and well prepped, "pricey" Pontiac engine -you might have only needed just the one of them.
> 
> Getting all frustrated with the Pontiac headers and spilling oil all over your tubes doesn't seem to justify not liking Pontiac engines. Maybe you simply didn't have the right knowledge on how to install them. With regards to the oil filter complaint; 1.) Pontiac made a filter adapter that rotated the filter at a 45 degree angle, 2.) Could have used a smaller diameter/smaller length oil filter -which is available, 3.) Could have installed an aftermarket remote oil filter kit. When you get frustrated, solutions that are right in front of you seem to become invisible.
> 
> Good news. There are available many aftermarket complete rotating assemblies, blocks, aluminum heads, assorted intakes, and lots of cams -rollers too. Is it cheap? Well, is horsepower ever cheap? A GTO without a Pontiac mill is no longer a GTO.:nonod: Perhaps you might do some research and consider dropping in another Pontiac engine -the potential for high HP is available.:bannana:


Interesting that you seem to quote a word that I never used. I didn't say Chevy engines are cheap, only that making Pontiac engines were (and probably still are) not only expensive, but the HP parts and sellers are not plentiful. The L88 engine was not cheap. But it was economical, making 435 driveable hp for less money than trying to assemble a Ram Air IV engine (heads alone in 1974 - $2500). 

I am not putting anyone down for being pure about their car if they so choose, but I am also not willing to be a slave to the marque just for the sake of being pure. Pontiac is an orphan company now, and I started modifying my car way back in the 1970s. Not much going back, unless I want to reinstall the rear end, front drum brakes, engine, wheels, transmission (although the turbo400 case I am using was actually out of a Pontiac), seats and a few other odds and ends. And I don't have the originals of any of those anymore.

Driving down the street or sitting still, nobody thinks it is anything else but a GTO. The car was almost all marketing wrapped around a few special parts and a lot of GTO badges. They are still fun to look at and drive, who cares what moves them unless they are being prepped for a concourse or sale? Answer: some on this forum care. Result: thread that can go forever.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Knuckledragger said:


> Pontiac is an orphan company now.


 :nopity:


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

PontiacJim said:


> A GTO without a Pontiac mill is no longer a GTO.:nonod:


:Yawn:  :boxing_smiley:

*This* is a real GTO!


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

I remember when the GTO came out that was an article on installing a 389 tri-power GTO engine into a 55 or 56 T-bird and that made that car run like a GTO. So a GTO body car is a GTO and put a GTO engine into something else and look out you got a GTO.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I read an article in a hot rod magazine 20-30 years back, and a guy had taken his original '64 tripower GTO and turned it into an El Camino. His GTO had been hit in the rear so hard that the body and frame were unsalvageable. So, he found a '64 El Camino, and installed the GTO front clip, 389 tripower, 4 speed, diff, and even the '64 dash, wood wheel, and bucket seats. It was super clean, and looked factory. Was it a GTO in the end? I don't know, but I'd love to have it. The heart and soul of the GTO was intact and running, just the rear sheet metal was different. And yes, this thread could go on forever.


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## maktope (May 22, 2013)

What is the cost of putting in an ls. Now I know from the previous arguments posts made and my own quote for engines that motor for motor the ls is cheaper. But swapping motor mounts bell housing and other misc items what's the true cost of putting one of these in?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

maktope said:


> What is the cost of putting in an ls. Now I know from the previous arguments posts made and my own quote for engines that motor for motor the ls is cheaper. But swapping motor mounts bell housing and other misc items what's the true cost of putting one of these in?


Good question. I think with all things, it depends on what the installer/owner can do himself and if you are talking new crate engine, used low mileage, or rebuilding one.

I somehow don't think the overall swap is cheaper or even more cost effective than rebuilding a 400 Pontiac. Engine for engine, it may be cheaper if you compare rebuilt to rebuilt. New crate engines for an LS3 putting out 430HP & 424 ft/lbs of torque seems to run around $6,300 or so. The required wiring harness & Computer is $1,100. I saw an installation kit to drop ans LS3 into a Chevelle and it was a tad over $3,200. This included the necessary fuel tank/pump/hoses, all mounts, radiator & hoses. You will need a Chevy transmission and new driveshaft. Got to plumb your exhaust sensors, and of course exhaust manifolds/new pipes.

So when you start adding up "new" parts, it looks like the Pontiac engine rebuild is by far the more cost effective deal. No trans changes, no driveshaft change, no plumbing woes, no gas tank/electric pump needs, etc..

Found a Super Chevy article having a 1970 GTO with an LS3 conversion using a hotter LS7 cam (Intake .561/Exhaust .558 ) for more HP, 3.42 gear, Richmond 6-speed. The results: 1/4 in 12.53 @113MPH. BIG WOOP! An awful lot of money to get that result. I believe one could get that result and better for less:thumbsup: -just my opinion.


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## maktope (May 22, 2013)

Because all BS aside, the reason i was looking at LSX over Pontiac was the power i wanted. It was by far cheaper engine to engine, Did not want to rebuild my 428 not sure if the block could swing what i was looking at doing, and like previous posts, i have no ability to do any of the work so it was going to be all out of pocket. But helping my budy on his camero which is a 2010 and he swapped to an LSX and just the amount of change he had to do, got me thinking of total cost. And when i started running numbers for total cost the two engines started getting closer and closer in price. So i was wondering if any of the people who put them in know for fact. Nickle and dimes add up quickly.


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## RevGTO (Aug 10, 2014)

I'm new to this board, but very active on LS1tech where I'm a mod. I have two 69 GTO's and two LS1 Firebirds, so I have some perspective on the subject.

I'd never put an LS motor in a classic GTO. Just wouldn't do it. The car might be very cool, but it just wouldn't be a GTO anymore. And GTO's are worth keeping the way they were.

But I'd love to do an LS powertrain in a restomod LeMans or Tempest with all the suspension and brake upgrades as a daily driver. It'd combine the best of both worlds - classic style and modern power, economy, and performance. But it's big ticket project and I don't have all the skills and the budget to pull it off. So then I think - an LS1 Firebird already has all that, and for far less than it would take to build on an A-body platform. So I enjoy both worlds, but separately.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

RevGTO said:


> I'm new to this board, but very active on LS1tech where I'm a mod. I have two 69 GTO's and two LS1 Firebirds, so I have some perspective on the subject.
> 
> I'd never put an LS motor in a classic GTO. Just wouldn't do it. The car might be very cool, but it just wouldn't be a GTO anymore. And GTO's are worth keeping the way they were.
> 
> But I'd love to do an LS powertrain in a restomod LeMans or Tempest with all the suspension and brake upgrades as a daily driver. It'd combine the best of both worlds - classic style and modern power, economy, and performance. But it's big ticket project and I don't have all the skills and the budget to pull it off. So then I think - an LS1 Firebird already has all that, and for far less than it would take to build on an A-body platform. So I enjoy both worlds, but separately.


Welcome! Thanks for your viewpoint - right on, you get it.atriot: A GTO with an LS engine is no longer a GTO. Leave the LS swaps to the Lemans and Tempest bodies IF you have to have an LS engine. I am however OK with bolt-on upgrades that make the GTO a safer car such as brakes and suspension, transmission upgrades having overdrives to improve performance and gas mileage, and even an updated rear-end to handle those big HP and torque numbers one can get when building a stout PONTIAC engine.:thumbsup:


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

maktope said:


> Because all BS aside, the reason i was looking at LSX over Pontiac was the power i wanted. It was by far cheaper engine to engine, Did not want to rebuild my 428 not sure if the block could swing what i was looking at doing, and like previous posts, i have no ability to do any of the work so it was going to be all out of pocket. But helping my budy on his camero which is a 2010 and he swapped to an LSX and just the amount of change he had to do, got me thinking of total cost. And when i started running numbers for total cost the two engines started getting closer and closer in price. So i was wondering if any of the people who put them in know for fact. Nickle and dimes add up quickly.


When my Pontiac 400CI in my '68 Lemans went south, I was going to build up and install a 500CI Caddy engine I have. I am a fan of cubic inches as this is easiest to make HP and the all important torque numbers. So I did my research & homework and put together a comparative list of parts for a Pontiac 455 vs Caddy 500 looking to get similar output numbers. With the Caddy 500, in its best year, it made 400 HP @ 4,400 RPM & 550 ft/lbs of torque @ 3,000 RPM's. The stock valvetrain keeps the RPM limit to 4,500 RPM's, so not a high winding engine until you step up to a better aftermarket rocker system -$$$$.

By the time I did my comparison, the Caddy and Pontiac engine (iron heads) were pretty close in what it was going to cost -engine for engine. But I wanted the TKO 5-speed, which is very do-able with the Caddy, but added expenses -$$$$. Soon the Caddy installation became more expensive and required fabrication to make it work. The Pontiac was now the money saver.

I don't know what you want from your 428CI, but yes, a Pontiac engine does have its limits and above a certain level like all big HP engines, the costs go up. You won't get the claimed 20+ MPG these 420HP engines are said to get. However, the 428CI is one of the best engines to produce some awesome power. The 440CI version (.060 over) made a good race engine. I have a build up that started as a 421CI bored to a 428CI using Ram Air IV top end running 12.47 @110 MPH in a 1967 GTO weighing 3550 lbs. Additional work/changes brought this down to 12.07 @112 MPH. Then it was punched out to 440CI, bigger cam, carb, TRW 12.5 pistons, and car weight reduced to 3380 lbs. Best time was 11.63 @ 118 MPH which calculated to 515HP @ 5,800 RPM.

If it is performance you want, then you can easily get that with one of the stroker kits to turn your 428CI into 467CI with a Butler kit for $1550 -all new parts & balanced. Then go from there. Don't be fooled by the higher HP numbers I see from the LS small blocks. This number requires higher RPM's and you still don't get the torque numbers you will with a Pontiac, especially a 428 bumped up to 467 CI. Torque is what moves the car and how you build a Pontiac engine.:thumbsup: Keep in mind that when HP, and especially torque goes up, you may find your transmission or rear-end needing to be upgraded to handle it regardless if you stay with the 428CI or switch to a high HP LS engine (unless you run a single track rear with factory skinny tires so all the power simply lights up the tires like they were on a wet road during a rain storm).


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## maktope (May 22, 2013)

Already upgraded rear end and have a new transmission in the garage. Have not ran the car on the track but last dyno tune with new carb / intake I was making 440 hp rear wheel and right at 500 ft lbs of torque. Problem I have is I did not build my 428 I am not sure on the internals rpm limit quality of parts or quality of build. Have a rear seal leak and looks like I am blowing a lil oil through a valve or two. I use the car as a daily driver so I wanted a new engine instead of dealing with the down time of rebuilding it. With that in mind I want a street able 600+ hp car. Time and money involved it is natural to look at other options. Especially since my gto is no where close to original. Although I've been thinking of painting it back to original color.


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## joesweeting (May 8, 2011)

My 69 GTO is not factory colors and was not the correct engine and transmission. That is one of the reasons I decided to do a LS engine swap in my daily driver. In hindsight, it would of been a lot cheaper and quicker to just put an aftermarket fuel injection system on my vehicle.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

joesweeting said:


> My 69 GTO is not factory colors and was not the correct engine and transmission. That is one of the reasons I decided to do a LS engine swap in my daily driver. In hindsight, it would of been a lot cheaper and quicker to just put an aftermarket fuel injection system on my vehicle.


Thanks for your input and honest opinion. I feel the Pontiac engine has just as much potential as any engine with regards to upgrades. I think the aftermarket induction systems would make a big difference in power, mileage, tuning, and all around driveability. But, the draw back is the expense as far as I can see, but some seem reasonable. I myself have looked into them and there are a number of options and more keep popping up aimed at the older cars. Personally, I like the look of dual quads and velocity stacks on a high rise.


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## joesweeting (May 8, 2011)

There was a lot more expenses than I thought. So far I have purchased the vortec engine, corvette ls1 intake, throttle body, cam and spring, oil pan, motor mounts, headers, wiring harness, new coils and wires, 1.7 roller rockers(which required tall valve covers) fuel tank and pump, stainless steel fuel hoses, computer flashed and reprogramed. Since it was a 5 speed. I also had to purchase a new bell housing and hydraulic clutch. 

Then started a frame off restoration which has been going on for almost a year.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

joesweeting said:


> There was a lot more expenses than I thought. So far I have purchased the vortec engine, corvette ls1 intake, throttle body, cam and spring, oil pan, motor mounts, headers, wiring harness, new coils and wires, 1.7 roller rockers(which required tall valve covers) fuel tank and pump, stainless steel fuel hoses, computer flashed and reprogramed. Since it was a 5 speed. I also had to purchase a new bell housing and hydraulic clutch.
> 
> Then started a frame off restoration which has been going on for almost a year.


Great listing of parts. This is what readers on the forum need to know. If you did not have a 4/5 speed trans, then I would think the list would include a new automatic to bolt up to the LS engine IF you were swapping out the Pontiac TH-400 or TH-350.

I read in one article that the transmission mounting holes had to be elongated as the LS swap moved everything forward 3/4". This might mean a new driveshaft if the input shaft pulls too far out of the transmission splined shaft. 

Did you experience any issues with your driveshaft?

Sounds like it will be a great car when its done. I am still firm in my stance of keeping a Pontiac engine (block at least -rotating assembly, heads,etc. owners choice) in the GTO.:thumbsup: I can be swayed to understand putting a different engine in a Lemans or Tempest, but would still rather see a Pontiac engine in a Pontiac car.:yesnod:


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## pcguy (Jul 7, 2014)

*Paint it blue*

I know you guys know that they put LS engines in every make and model, and that can not be said for Fords and Mopars, at least not to the same extent.

I'm asking the following questions in all seriousness - not being a smartass.

Some of what I have read in this thread indicates that there is a serious adversity to the engine not being blue and/or not having an original four barrel and yet others suggest that as long as the short block (or variations thereof) is a Pontiac, it's ok.

So if it ok to change everything but the guts, what's wrong with an LS engine painted blue?

I know it's not the same, but unless you are going for points on Judge or you have an original numbers matching car with original everything, what's the difference? Seems like it's just a head trip....:skep:


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## joesweeting (May 8, 2011)

*ls swap*

PontiacJim,

I purchased a new drive shaft when I swapped the TKO-500 so I could complete the swap in one day. Still under restoration so far, from what I can remember I have purchased:

New floor pans
New Radiator support
New Radiator
New heater element
New Electric fans
Replaced all software in suspension
New Battery tray
Rewired entire car
New aftermarket gauges
New brakes hard lines, stainless steel lines, calipers, pads and rotors
New brake booster (due to valve covers)
New transmission cross member
New exhaust pipes
New mufflers
New tail lights housing
New carpet
Dynamat
New headliner
New shift boot and trim
3 inch lowering springs front
2 inch lowering springs rear 
ARP connecting rod bolts
Seat extenders 
25% under drive pulley
Misc bolts and gaskets


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Pcguy, some folks 'get it', some don't. If you've followed this thread and have read the posts, the 'difference' has been highlighted, underlined, and posted on a neon marquee several times.


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## joesweeting (May 8, 2011)

pcguy said:


> I know you guys know that they put LS engines in every make and model, and that can not be said for Fords and Mopars, at least not to the same extent.
> 
> I'm asking the following questions in all seriousness - not being a smartass.
> 
> ...


I would be fine coloring the block pontiac blue and having a carb set up if that is what you want. Mine is still being worked on. I originally had the valve covers painted blue, but then I had to get tall chrome valve covers due to the roller rockers arms. Right now the engine has been painted black. I am looking at getting an after market intake either chrome or polished. If I can't find one I like I might paint it blue to. I went for the LS swapping because the vehicle was a daily driver and I wanted fuel injection.


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## Mikesan (Apr 2, 2011)

Just found this thread and only read the first couple of replies. On one hand I'm a big believer in putting the "right" manufacturers engine in the car. If it's the original block keep it as close to stock as possible. If you have to rebuild it, go ahead. If you can't use the original block then I'd opt for a "better" (rarer and/or higher HP) engine from the same manufacturer before trying to get a period correct/date coded similar example of the original engine. If that's not an option I don't mind a replacement engine from the same Family of cars (GM, Mopar, Ford/Lincoln being swapped out.) I appreciate a modern Ford 5.0 in a classic 60's Mustang. The problem is that since Pontiac is out of business, there are no modern Pontiac V8 engines to source. Sure, you have the LS1 and LS2 engines of the 2004-2006 GTO, but those are GM engines. I have no problem resto-modding one of those in a classic GTO if other options are not readily available or if you are going to go the full resto-mod route with larger tires, updated interiors, and modern paints. Either keep it as close to stock as you can, or go all out and make a modern cruiser with old school body panels.


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## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

This topic picks at a scab that appears in many other circles. In the not too distant past there was this big ad push to put "...a Ford in a Ford..." aimed at the street rod set. Some have latched onto that like Moses and his tablets from the top of the mountain. But yet there's a majority of those semi-purist types that never say a word unless the choice is the inimitable small block Chevy. Take your 30s Ford and drop in a Nailhead, a Pontiac, early Olds or Caddy, and the holiest of holy choices, an early HEMI. Some of those guys would nearly tug you for your choice of engines other than a flathead, 289/302 or an FE. 

So why bring it up here? Because I think those who do indeed prefer the grunt of "wild indians" vs the LS route don't seem to be such snobs about it. Quality has been mentioned in this topic, and while I've seen some really over the top "pro-whatever" builds they still don't move me like the real deal. Just short of 60yrs young I tend to appreciate what was more that what can be any more. It could be that over 40yrs of restoration has woven a web that could make some spiders jealous and it's trapped me just a bit. I've cut, built, modified, raced, and all sorts related to several different 60s and 70s icons over the years. The most hallowed of which stayed pretty close to their roots, some got whatever I felt like doing. Worth mentioning again in this topic, the push to the LS 'church' is indeed driven by 'net and paper publications and seems to appeal to a generation removed from what was, and in fact never will be again except for those of us who simply dig it, simply "get it". The truth is there's no hard and fast rule that all must follow but we can hope that the addiction (affliction?) to the real deal gets contageous and affects those who'd follow our lead. Imagine a gennie GTO in "day 2" dress rolling amongst some of it's peers that have had the gender reasignment of an LS. How kool would it be that the performance was there, mileage was clearly acceptable, the sound was true and unique, and the few accessories added simply were not seen on but a precious few. And that quality thing? Of course, done perfect, dressed to impress, I'd think you'd have to beat the spectators off with a stick. Maybe not, remember, I'm an old bastid...


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Yes, you 'get it', or you don't. Obviously, a Hyabusa engine would be a huge improvement over a primitive Indian Cheif or Vincent Black Shadow powerplant, but would the Indian or the Vincent really feel, and BE the same? Or would their _soul_ be lost entirely. I prefer the visceral experience of a period powerplant. Just like I prefer a steam engine to a diesel. A whole lot more soul, primitive as it may be.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

*LS engine disadvantage*. The various aluminum blocks are limited in what they can be bored out. The '97-'98 LS1 blocks can only be bored .004" over. '99 and up LS1's can be bored .010" over. The LS2 can be bored .030" over and LS3 blocks can go .020" over. Iron blocks can be bored from .060" to .130" over depending on type/year(Source: Hot Rod, Dec 2014 issue).

With that said, the wear limits of the bores can most likely require the aluminum block to be re-sleeved. I found one site that does this operation which is for 8 sleeves: dry sleeve, bore, fit, deck block -$1,500. Honing is extra. That's probably about right as my machinist charges $200 a sleeve for an iron block which is $1,600 for all 8 -and I suspect he's a bit higher than others.

Hmmm. If I had a Pontiac block, I can bore it over the common sizes of .030", .040" or .060" and larger depending on year and if sonic checked and the cylinder walls have enough meat. So it looks like I can bore my Pontiac iron block 3 times. The LS1-NONE. The LS-2-ONCE. The LS3- Well.... Of course you can indeed order custom pistons in the size you need to fit any bore/overbore, but this would require custom pistons which aren't always inexpensive.

Now I did some replacement block pricing. New LS1-$1,087. LS2-$1,120. LS3-$1,490. Unless you have to have the original block and need to spend upwards of $1,500 plus to get the aluminum block re-sleeved, it is cheaper to simply buy a new block. Basically, all those with first generation GTO's having LS conversions -YOU HAVE A THROW AWAY ENGINE.:nopity:

The factory Pontiac engine can be bored out several times AND sleeved if the engine had to be saved or if the owner chose to-MAKING THE FACTORY PONTIAC ENGINE INFINITELY CHEAPER IN LIFESPAN and less likely to be thrown away, if at all. But, if you didn't need to preserve the worn out original block by sleeving or if it simply wasn't the original block and you had bored it out as much as you dared, you can purchase another COMPLETE engine for 1/2 or 1/3 the price of just a replacement LS aluminum block.:thumbsup:

Again, what's the advantage of an LS engine conversion?:crazy:


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## joesweeting (May 8, 2011)

PontiacJim said:


> *LS . Iron blocks can be bored from .060" to .130" over depending on type/year(Source: Hot Rod, Dec 2014 issue).
> 
> Again, what's the advantage of an LS engine conversion?:crazy:*


*

I'm having an iron LS engine installed into my 69 GTO. I'm going with a 5.3 with a s472 turbo. Shooting for around 750hp. My GTO was my primary means of transportation until the frame off restoration started. When it gets out of the shop I plan to continue to driving it every day, to work, to the gym, etc. 

Hot rod magazine made over 1200 hp with the smaller 4.8.
Stock GM LS Engine - Big Bang Theory - Hot Rod Magazine*


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## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

PontiacJim said:


> *LS engine disadvantage*.
> Again, what's the advantage of an LS engine conversion?:crazy:


THE ADVANTAGE? GM and stocking dealers/merchants. They get to sell blocks and speed parts. Just sayin...


quick edit: The new technology used in all the racer stuff did nothing to crown the IHRA Mod Class world champ this year. He did it with an old school MOPAR RB foundation using a primitive Dominator carb, a Torqueflight trans with a brake and the venerable Dana 60 rear gear. And yes I know this as pure truth. He's been a close and dear friend for over 30yrs. Again, just sayin...


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Got a Throw Away Engine
From a Throw Away Car
Gonna bolt it in my Geeto
Gonna shoot for the stars

It's the Flavor Of The Moment
The Order Of The Day
It's what everybody's doing
Which makes it all okay

Got a rockin' little small block
In my engine bay
With all the personality 
Of a lump of clay

But she runs real smooth
And sounds real sweet
At least until next year
When she'll be OBSOLETE!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

joesweeting said:


> I'm having an iron LS engine installed into my 69 GTO. I'm going with a 5.3 with a s472 turbo. Shooting for around 750hp. My GTO was my primary means of transportation until the frame off restoration started. When it gets out of the shop I plan to continue to driving it every day, to work, to the gym, etc.
> 
> Hot rod magazine made over 1200 hp with the smaller 4.8.
> Stock GM LS Engine - Big Bang Theory - Hot Rod Magazine


HP is king, so sounds like a great engine:thumbsup:, but at what cost? I think it would be interesting to do an honest cost comparison of what it takes to get 750 HP out of an LS engine (which seems to be the cast iron blocks as the aluminum blocks don't seem to be recommended for big HP numbers) and 750 HP out of a Pontiac using a turbo.

When you start injecting dollars into any engine, and I don't care if its a 4-banger, you can get HP. How about installing an Indy 2.2L 675HP twin turbo engine in a GTO and comparing that to a Pontiac mill. Given enough dollars, no doubt one could build a mega HP Pontiac engine (and has been done) as well.

I feel there is no comparison between what most LS swaps are, stock factory engines with all the electronics that make them what they are. If you are going to compare an engine with add-ons, then you have to do a lateral comparison with a Pontiac engine with same add-ons. If your going to compare a Hemi engine against a Pontiac engine, then I'm going to compare a jet engine against the Hemi, or LS engine. 



 World's fastest 1/4 mile @ 3.58 seconds.:eek2: 

Once you start adding superchargers, twin turbo's, 1,000 HP Nitrous units, or fab an Allison V-12 bolted to the back of the block, etc., you have stepped out of the realm of "factory" production and comparisons. Heck, lets throw in Kevin Swaney's No blower, No turbo, No nitrous dragster using the KRE Pontiac 535CI turning 6.81 seconds in the 1/4 mile. I don't know for sure, but can we get a non supercharged, non turbo's, non nitrous LS engine to do that? Kevin Swaney « fastest . Pontiacs . ever Check out the other Pontiacs as well. 

Again, what's the advantage of an LS engine?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

The boys 'round here like to bang a good gear
Gettin' her sideways 'cause we got no fear.
Listen to her growl as we burn up the road
Solid lifters sing songs as they tap out a code.
Got me a Pontiac thats pure to the heart
No damn Chevy, not even a part.

One hand on the wheel the other on the Hurst
Its all about horsepower that quenches our thirst.
Tachometer is a talkin' as I hang the big shift
Front end just giggles as she gives a little lift.
Got me a Pontiac thats pure to the heart
No damn Chevy, not even a part.

Torque is our King as the Mickey's get grip
She's bad-ass, boys, and we don't take no lip.
We've been doing this a while and will do it some more
Shuttin' down an LS is hardly the chore.
Got me a Pontiac thats pure to the heart
No damn Chevy, not even a part.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

LOL!!!!!! peas in a pod, I guess.........excellent stuff.


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## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

To inject a bit of a serious note, I can't be the only one who's noticed that nobody claimed Pontiac engines are the end-all-do-all in the high performance food chain. There's a lot to like about these things, their history well documented, and with the likes of Mickey Thompson and others they did nothing but get better. Even in the darkest days of high performance (73-4) the Iron Indians were still savages with the SD 455s. Although not for the 'faint of wallet' Pontiac engines are still a serious performer for whatever you want them to do. 

I also noticed that doing this latest LS gig is no cheap proposition either. It always sounds (reads) so easy in the magazines and message boards, and not too many stories come up about doing it on the cheap. The speed merchants can't sell parts on stories like that, and I'd bet a hood tach that most are done with the assistance of the Summit and Jeg's catalogs vs the local "pick-a-part". I wouldn't try to make those who seem bent on doing it change their minds, I wouldn't dis their choice too much, and surely wouldn't want everyone to be like me, holding the real thing's past in high esteem. If everyone had a 65 day 2 car it would be a boring activity. It's like a black Deuce hiboy. Seen one, seen em all, and this whole conversion to LS engines is becoming just that. Pro Street is all but gone, easter egg street rods (the 90s) are a joke today, and billet everything is passe'. I can only hope that big hoops and modern motors join them soon.


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## ppurfield001 (Jan 21, 2008)

PontiacJim said:


> The boys 'round here like to bang a good gear
> Gettin' her sideways 'cause we got no fear.
> Listen to her growl as we burn up the road
> Solid lifters sing songs as they tap out a code.
> ...


GTO Guy and PontiacJim -- Who'd a thunk we had two poets on this forum? Both poems made me smile and feel a little guilty since I own a 2009 Pontiac G8 GXP with one of those "damn LS3s" in it from the factory. Oh well, at least the engine came "from the factory."


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## PontiacPaul (Dec 22, 2014)

*Chevy LS into EARLY GTO SWAP*

This is something i have been putting some thought into lately but from a different angle. My 65 Lemans came to me minus the engine and trans. I have an LS6 454 orphan in my garage that would slip right in there. My 65 was born with a 6 cyl. CHEVY sooooo it really wouldn't be like i pulled out my # matching 389 to go 454 chevy and it is a Lemans. I have a 5.3 in my pickup they are great engines. It wins the homely engine award no wonder the Vettes put covers on them.


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## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

I'd stuff that 454 in there in a heartbeat (no pun intended). Dollar for dollar nothing makes more power. Being the smartass that I am, I'd paint it early Poncho blue and find old school finned aluminum valve covers for it, then have fun at every cruise night or show telling folks it's a 455. Unless they asked if it was a Chevy...


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

PontiacPaul said:


> This is something i have been putting some thought into lately but from a different angle. My 65 Lemans came to me minus the engine and trans. I have an LS6 454 orphan in my garage that would slip right in there. My 65 was born with a 6 cyl. CHEVY sooooo it really wouldn't be like i pulled out my # matching 389 to go 454 chevy and it is a Lemans. I have a 5.3 in my pickup they are great engines. It wins the homely engine award no wonder the Vettes put covers on them.



Heresy, heresy I say! A six cylinder Chevy is original so that is all you can put in there.......LS6 454.....just so wrong.....:leaving:


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## chui1980 (Jun 5, 2013)

No offense to the originator of this topic but this is the most controversial conversation in regards to muscle cars period. It sucks. Why can we all look at it like this. A muscle car is a muscle car period even if you have a upgraded power train or your car is fully customized. I fully agree on one thing. If the car is completely original and you change it to some sort of freak then you loose. That is not acceptable. Is like a women with a perfect body and face and she decides to get surgery to add more breast and butt. Some guys may like it but for me is a shame. Then again the personal taste factor kicks in. I respect every men/women here and their opinions are valuable as no person here has an obligation to contribute. Every body share comments and ideas as to do's and dont's,what works and what doesn't. In my opinion Ls engines are great for muscle cars however our imagination and vehicle combination must match. For example if you put an Ls3 on a complete factory stock car such as lemans, gto, firebird, etc., you will break something. No doubt. Now you must continue upgrade to withstand such power. At his point the car not only stop being original,now is customized. I can live with changing a steering wheel on a complete matching numbers original car just because you don't like large size steering. The swap is painless if you want it back in place but engines, custom interiors, etc., no way. Happy Holidays and I wish you everyone a great weekend.


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## PontiacPaul (Dec 22, 2014)

*Ls swap*

This subject raises the hair on peoples necks for sure.There is a drag strip in the works near my house and I purchased the Lemans for a weekend racer that is still streetable. I'm on the lookout for a set of the big chief heads that Pontiac ran in pro stock NHRA in the late 80s They were the hot set up and were available across the parts counter at your local dealer. :laugh:


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

PontiacPaul said:


> This subject raises the hair on peoples necks for sure.There is a drag strip in the works near my house and I purchased the Lemans for a weekend racer that is still streetable. I'm on the lookout for a set of the big chief heads that Pontiac ran in pro stock NHRA in the late 80s They were the hot set up and were available across the parts counter at your local dealer. :laugh:


These heads are race heads, and don't seem to go too cheap. New seem to go $3,500 and up and you also have to get - "Requires aftermarket Jesel or T&D shaft rocker arm system, special Big Chief head bolts, valve covers, pistons, and the matching intake manifold."

The Big Chief Heads have an 18 degree intake angle, 2.40" intake valves & 1.94" exhausts. - ".......while the Pontiac Pro Stock head has been widely copied by aftermarket manufacturers, resulting in the Dart Big Chief head (paying tribute to the Pontiac Indian tribe), the Brodix Big Duke head, and Edelbrock’s Big Victor head, with more development sure to follow. If you want to make 1,000 hp or more without power adders, “Big” heads are the way to go."

If you are going to spend the money required to go Pro Stock racing, why not simply go Pontiac and buy a new aftermarket MR-1 Pontiac block made for racing and KRE or Ram Air V heads? The stock 454 block may not hold up to Pro Stock HP levels, so sell it to recover some cash flow and go MR-1.

That way you'll have a Pontiac based engine/heads in your '65 Lemans instead of a Chevy engine with Chevy heads that have a misleading Pontiac-in-name-only part number on them? Then you can stand tall and proud that your Pontiac car has an aftermarket Pontiac block and heads and wow the fans.:thumbsup:


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## PontiacPaul (Dec 22, 2014)

Don't get me wrong i'm a big Pontiac fan. I'm gathering parts as we speak but i will start a new thread for that topic.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

PontiacPaul said:


> Don't get me wrong i'm a big Pontiac fan. I'm gathering parts as we speak but i will start a new thread for that topic.


Nope, you speak with forked tongue. Can't claim to be a big Pontiac fan when you entertain the thoughts of dropping a Chevy into a Pontiac engine bay. Must be something in that Coventry water. If you lived and grew up in Danielson, you'd of had better water to drink!:wink2: 

Vernon seems to ring a bell for me, wasn't there a big swap meet in Vernon that I used to go to and sell parts in my youth? Used to go to Stafford Springs, but was thinking there was one in Vernon too.


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## PontiacPaul (Dec 22, 2014)

Nothing good comes out of Vernon except weirdos and druggies. When I was 17 I used to pump gas after school and clean the garage help the mechanics etc. I had my 65 gto One mechanic had a Boss 302 the owners son had a smokey and the bandit t/a . One day i was going around back to stack tires and i see a rotted out 68 Malibu no biggie later i come back with more tires and i look at the fender and i see 396 i pry open the hood and no shit its a big block. i go back in the shop and ask about it its the owners sons old car i ask about it long story short i buy it for 375 bucks ironicly it was a 375 hp SS396 with a Malibu nose. my best friend had a 67 Firebird 400 4 speed I repeatedly whipped his ass with this car. we would pack it with kids and burn the tires in all gears. eventually the rust was so bad i parted it out. The 373 12 bolt landed in my GTO The 396 got rebuilt and landed under the hood of that 67 firebird where it resides to this day. IF you cant beat em join em. Danielson is next to where the drag strip is being built.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Here we go!!!  I remember a guy I went to school with back in the day....He had a '67-'68 Firebird with a 4 speed and a Chevy 396. I used to clean his clock with my worn out '67 GTO ragtop (the one I still have). The last time I ran him was on the highway, and my engine had over 175,000 miles on it and a burnt exhaust valve. Beat the _hell _ out of him up a long grade. I mean, like 20 car-lengths after about a mile. Another friend had a minty '66 ss396 Chevelle with the 325 HP engine and the 2 speed auto. Really clean and bone stock. My bone stock '65 GTO with the 335HP engine and the 2 speed auto I had at the time would consistently smoke him. Badly. He had a 3.31 rear gear and I had a 3.23. Both were open rears. Another friend had a really nice '69 SS396 Chevelle with a ton of engine work. Had a lot of $$$ in the engine. We used to hand him his tail regularly with my buddie's bone stock '67 GTO with a 2.93 rear and an automatic, with AC. Absolutely tear him up. The goat even had whitewalls and hubcaps. In fact, thinking back, among a group of about 6 of us with GTO's, NONE of use lost to a Chevy, even once. The closest was a '69 Z-28 with 2 4's on a cross ram with a 4 speed and a 4.11 gear: I beat him from a stop by about 2 car lengths at the end of about 1/3 mile.....he had a built 302 and I had a junkyard $150 '67 Catalina 2bbl engine with tripower added on my '66 GTO with a 4 speed and 3.55 gears. He hated me after that!! I guess the Chevrolets run harder on the East Coast? (as a disclaimer, I realize that big power can be had from the bowtie family, particularly when people 'in -the-know' do the work, but at that time, we simply never ran into one. Even an LS6 '70 Chevelle I ran lost to my tripower 400 4 speed '66 GTO._ How_ it lost, I don't know, but it did indeed!)


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

"Danielson is next to where the drag strip is being built.

OK, I have a friend in Danielson who owns/restored one of Jungle Jims top fuel funny cars. I'll have to find out more from him. I had gone a couple times to the old Connecticut Dragway in Colchester they shut down and then Epping NH for their exhibition shows, but that was a drive. Vernon just came to mind, but it was so long ago I must be wrong.

I'm with geeteeohguy on Pontiac muscle. Many good "other brand" engines to include chevy, but a Pontiac really has the torque. My brother's stock 400CI Bonneville used to dice up a lot of the local chevy and other cars. They would get him off the line, but when all said and done, they saw his tail lights.

Still, a chevy engine in a first gen Pontiac is blasphemy.:nono:

*Blasphemy*: 
1a : the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for a Pontiac.
1b : the act of claiming the attributes of a Pontiac, ie a chevy engine in place of a Pontiac engine.
2: irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable such as a Pontiac.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

......you don't tug on Superman's cape......you don't spit into the wind.....you don't pull the mask off of old Lone Ranger, and you _don't_ mess around with Jim! LOL!!!


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## PontiacPaul (Dec 22, 2014)

Facebook/ctnationaldrags. Is the site check it out


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

geeteeohguy said:


> ......you don't tug on Superman's cape......you don't spit into the wind.....you don't pull the mask off of old Lone Ranger, and you _don't_ mess around with Jim! LOL!!!


LOL, you're funny. You know that I am coming out there some day and you are going to take me to a cackle fest. It may be in our retirement years, but we're goin'.:thumbsup:


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

PontiacPaul said:


> Facebook/ctnationaldrags. Is the site check it out


OK, neat. Looks like Willimantic is the site. Know the place well. Went to college there at Eastern for a short bout out of high school in 1977-78. Commuted back and forth every day in my old 1956 Pontiac because I had a job and could not afford to live on campus. Here I learned college was not for me and went to an autobody tech school. Bought my first 409 Chevy engine from a salvage yard outside of town. Yep, that's where my life took a wrong turn and its been messed up ever since - cars & women.:banghead: I should have stayed in school and became an optometrist.:wink2:


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Jim, you're more than welcome! I go to the Famoso March Meet and Famoso Hot Rod Reunion every year....in fact, a buddy called up yesterday to make sure we were scheduled to go this coming March! I have plenty of room and a highway-friendly GTO...any time you're ready! (I dropped out of State College after a year to get a 'temporary' job in the automotive industry to 'make some money'....ended up getting stuck there, too!! (was leaning on becoming a dentist of all things....._that_ would have been a financial disaster for sure!) Oh well!!!!


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

I have the challenge of trying to make my correct GTO operate on fuel that is more favorable to a GM LS V8 engine. The insight provided to me from posters like geeteeohguy, Bear, and Pontiac Jim have been invaluable to me. I can tell you it is tougher to make the old school stuff work in today’s world, but my goal is to have a strong running 389, operating on today’s mediocre fuel, while appearing under the hood as it did in 1965. It is fun to own a 50-year-old car that looks like it just rolled down the assembly line. It isn’t cheap to follow the factory blueprint and in some cases it is more fun to just follow your own script.

That said I can appreciate Knuckledragger’s point as to putting a Chevy big block in his ’65 GTO. Pontiac engines have been out of production for a long time. Maybe a guy has to run the engine that is available to him to afford him to keep his old car running. I’d rather see a ’65 GTO with a Chevy big block at the cruise-in than to have it rotting away in a junk yard awaiting a date with the crusher. 

The excellent LS V8 really is not a Chevy-only engine, but rather the product of General Motors Power Train division. The last engines from GM with divisional lineage was the 3800 V6 (Buick) and the Cadillac Northstar V8. Divisional autonomy went away years ago at GM and the company suffered somewhat from that. I respect Knuckledragger when he says he won’t be a slave to any marque.

I am glad to see a modern engine come along that is embraced by the hot rod culture. I mean in 1980, was anybody swapping the turbo 301s from Trans Ams into GTOs? To me the GM LS V8 represents that a tried and true push rod V8 engine still has a prominent place in the auto industry in the 21st century.

I can understand the disdain some posters have about non Pontiac engines in GTOs. I remember being pissed after reading articles in Hot Rod magazine in the 1980s when Gray Baskerville would refer to Pontiac V8s as “detonator” V8s in his description of a big block Chevy powered GTO featured in the magazine.

Crusty’s Tempest makes me wonder about how I can follow my own script with my other old car, a 1970 Buick Skylark coupe. I have kicked around the idea of replacing the old Buick 350 with the 6.2L engine and 4L60 transmission from a Camaro SS. My Buick is not a GS and I wouldn’t consider doing the swap even if my Skylark was a GS350. A grocery getter ’65 Tempest or ’70 Skylark restored like my ’65 GTO convertible would net a negative return on investment if the car had to be sold. I am willing to wager if Crusty put his LS-powered Tempest in the marketplace, his car would fetch a higher return had he restored his Tempest original. I’ve seen some tastefully done customs with modern powertrains fetch big dollars on the auction circuit.

It is romantic to say the value of these cars is immaterial, and they are just loved for what they represent, but the reality is these cars are liquid assets and if need be could be converted into much needed funds. These cars have greater value when in running condition rather than being pieces with potential. I think there is room for all different ways of restoring what is left of these vintage cars. I am just glad to see them remain in circulation regardless of how they are made whole.


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## georgegervin44 (Nov 19, 2014)

Well said, extinct!


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

I have a parts matching '67 but I am a shadetree mechanic and rebuilding my 400 is above my pay grade even if I could find someone to do the machine work.
The car has been sitting without an engine going on 6 months and I am ready to buy a complete LS engine for it.
I would like to have the original engine in it but at this point I want to drive it, I can't get a response from the builder that has the engine and now fire season is here and I have no way to evacuate the car if I have to evacuate.
I have over 60K into this car and who knows how long it will be before I have the engine back.
I can buy a complete LS engine today and have lost all interest in waiting for the original any longer.
Thankfully The Lake Fire is moving away from me and is 60% contained.
I am now looking for storage off the mountain I can have the car flat bedded to or I may just take a huge loss and sell it as is.
Any engine at this point is better than no engine and I am looking at 10K and another 6 months for another Pontiac engine and it won't be the original so I am screwed any way I go.
At this point I am tired of dealing with it, it isn't fun anymore and I just want it gone.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Goat Roper said:


> I have a parts matching '67 but I am a shadetree mechanic and rebuilding my 400 is above my pay grade even if I could find someone to do the machine work.
> The car has been sitting without an engine going on 6 months and I am ready to buy a complete LS engine for it.
> I would like to have the original engine in it but at this point I want to drive it, I can't get a response from the builder that has the engine and now fire season is here and I have no way to evacuate the car if I have to evacuate.
> I have over 60K into this car and who knows how long it will be before I have the engine back.
> ...



I don't get it. With all the engine rebuilders and machine shops here in the big old US of A and you can't get a Pontiac engine? Have you ever heard of Ebay? I just looked and there are several engines rebuilt and ready to go, $2,250 - $5,000. So what is your real beef?


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Those are short and long blocks, I need a complete engine.
The throttle cable bracket is 75 bucks and the bracket for the A/C unit is 90 bucks then I have to find an intake, carb etc.
It would take me months to find all the parts I would need to complete a long block.
Since it won't be original anyway and I have a buddy who works for GM I can get a complete E-ROD 6.2 liter LS3 crate engine and L65E GM 4sp Automatic Transmission for his cost I may as well go with all new stuff.
Butler quoted me $8,431.30 and 6 months + but that is with my engine which I don't have so that brings another few thousand to the party.
Finding a complete rebuilt 400 engine ready to ship isn't as easy as you think it is, I can't even find one complete that needs a rebuild.
I walked the entire Pomona Swap Meet and couldn't find one Pontiac part let alone an engine.
Believe me I have spent a couple months trying to find something and found this thread looking for info on the LS swap and I am thinking this is the way to go.


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## maktope (May 22, 2013)

I was think ls was the way to go also. But there are alot of hidden costs involved and in the end it costs the same if not more to build the ls. I went to the long beach swap meet picked up a 428 block and a 455. Had a 492 built out of the best one. It's taken 3 months


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Goat roper- 1965 389 Pontiac engine for sale

Pontiac Engines dot com for sale at Pontiac Engines.com

found these both on the craigslist for San Bernardino.....the first is 1965 Pontiac 389 engine. Fresh valve job with new valves and new springs. New rings and bearings. new camshaft and lifters oil pan to intake edelbrock performer with exhaust manifolds. $1000 located in Long Beach.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

ALKYGTO said:


> Goat roper- 1965 389 Pontiac engine for sale
> 
> Pontiac Engines dot com for sale at Pontiac Engines.com
> 
> found these both on the craigslist for San Bernardino.....the first is 1965 Pontiac 389 engine. Fresh valve job with new valves and new springs. New rings and bearings. new camshaft and lifters oil pan to intake edelbrock performer with exhaust manifolds. $1000 located in Long Beach.


Google Bruce Fulper Rock and Roll Engineering and read his reviews.
:jawDrop:
I called him already he told me I was wasting his time and he hung up on me.
Dude is a flake, all hat and no cattle.
I have beat the bushes for months looking for a complete 400 engine, I have even called guys in Mesa and Phoenix Az. with no luck.
I can find blocks and parts but no machinists or builders.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I guess you really didn't look at ebay. Here is a running/rebuit 455HO. Even has the alternator. 1972 455 HO Pontiac Engine 455HO Trans Am Firebird GTO Rebuilt RARE | eBay

Here is another: Rebuilt Pontiac 400CI Engine | eBay

Here is another: Pontiac 400 455 461 495 High Perf Turn Key Dyno Crate Engine w Edelbrock Heads | eBay AND you may be able to contact these guys into building a cheaper version.

Another one: Pontiac 400 Engine | eBay

HOW MANY ENGINES would you like me to come up with?

Machine shops in Mesa? Googled 7 of them. 

Me thinks you really don't want a Pontiac engine and simply are looking to justify an LS engine/trans. Go for it, but don't post that you can't find an engine nor a machinist.:nopity:


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Paul Carter in Tuscon would be my first choice as a Pontiac engine builder if I was anywhere within a 1000 miles.


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## maktope (May 22, 2013)

I had TGs performance build mine. They typically build Chevy's, but the numbers they gave me cam choice and so on were exactly what butler quoted me as using. They stand by their work customer service is great and they are right out side torrence so not to far from you. Tony is the owner give them a call.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

PontiacJim said:


> I guess you really didn't look at ebay. Here is a running/rebuit 455HO. Even has the alternator. 1972 455 HO Pontiac Engine 455HO Trans Am Firebird GTO Rebuilt RARE | eBay
> 
> Here is another: Rebuilt Pontiac 400CI Engine | eBay
> 
> ...


None of those engines are what I am looking for, I need a '67 400 with and 8 bolt pump.
I also need the brackets, the main one would be for the A/C compressor and the two longer head bolts that it uses.
I can get a long block ready to go but I need the right engine to get the rest of the parts off of.
I don't really want an LS but it is an option I am looking into, to have a 400 built is going to take 6 months and I am trying to get it on the road this summer.
I could do that with a long block and the right parts engine for a core.
I could also do it with an LS but I have pretty much decided against that route.


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Goat Roper said:


> None of those engines are what I am looking for, I need a '67 400 with and 8 bolt pump.
> I also need the brackets, the main one would be for the A/C compressor and the two longer head bolts that it uses.
> I can get a long block ready to go but I need the right engine to get the rest of the parts off of.
> I don't really want an LS but it is an option I am looking into, to have a 400 built is going to take 6 months and I am trying to get it on the road this summer.
> ...


Pullout 40+ year old Pontiac engines don't always have nice timing covers or nice valley pans, been there. All through the 90's up til '01, I was the main core supplier for a major Pontiac engine builder with 400 short blocks and 6X-4 heads. Would have continued on for a few more years but nice shape timing covers, nice valley pans and oil pans, along with good 400 cranks were all becoming trouble spots.

Besides the timing cover and brackets, do you need '67 pulleys and a '67 Qjet intake? Would you be interested in a zero mile 455 with 6X-8 heads?


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Pinion head said:


> Pullout 40+ year old Pontiac engines don't always have nice timing covers or nice valley pans, been there. All through the 90's up til '01, I was the main core supplier for a major Pontiac engine builder with 400 short blocks and 6X-4 heads. Would have continued on for a few more years but nice shape timing covers, nice valley pans and oil pans, along with good 400 cranks were all becoming trouble spots.
> 
> Besides the timing cover and brackets, do you need '67 pulleys and a '67 Qjet intake? Would you be interested in a zero mile 455 with 6X-8 heads?


PM sent.


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## gmpgto (Jul 2, 2015)

*64-71 GTO Restomod*

I currently own four GTO Convertibles. 67,68,70 and 71. I recently did a restomod on my Orbit Orange 70. Its an amazing car. I put brand new 480hp 480ftlb LS3 in it with a 6 speed manual with overdrive. It gets twice the mileage of the original 455 and has more power. That said, I agree with some of the other comments regarding the originality of these GTO's. I also have an all original 67 that I bought from the original owner that i would never change.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

gmpgto said:


> I currently own four GTO Convertibles. 67,68,70 and 71. I recently did a restomod on my Orbit Orange 70. Its an amazing car. I put brand new 480hp 480ftlb LS3 in it with a 6 speed manual with overdrive. It gets twice the mileage of the original 455 and has more power. That said, I agree with some of the other comments regarding the originality of these GTO's. I also have an all original 67 that I bought from the original owner that i would never change.



Now the *BIG* question that no one seems to want to answer/tackle is...........what was the final price tag to purchase a new engine/trans and all of the hardware (wiring, mounts, ECU, electric fuel system, etc..) and change over items needed to get the engine/trans installed and turn-key. 15K ?????????? More???????:yesnod:


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## gmpgto (Jul 2, 2015)

Hello Jim, 
I will be happy to share my experience re the BIG question. In a nutshell to do it right, turn key, reliably with everything done, one is in for $15-20k. I live in California a very expensive place to do do business. Labor costs are less almost anywhere else in the country. There's a lot to doing it properly, its not for amateurs. But once done, you will have an amazing car. When done right, you have an awesome classic GTO that will run 80mph all day long and run cool while doing so with the A/C running and you'll still get an honest 22-23mpg.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I guess I'm not doing too bad in my stock, original engine powered '67 GTO ragtop getting 20-21mpg at 80 mph, then. No A/C, though.....but not too bad for a car I have less than 8k total wrapped up in, and that's running the original Q-jet and points distributor. I think it's all in what you want, and how you want the car to _feel._ There are tech guys and there are visceral guys. Some guys like computers, others like steam engines.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

gmpgto said:


> Hello Jim,
> I will be happy to share my experience re the BIG question. In a nutshell to do it right, turn key, reliably with everything done, one is in for $15-20k. I live in California a very expensive place to do do business. Labor costs are less almost anywhere else in the country. There's a lot to doing it properly, its not for amateurs. But once done, you will have an amazing car. When done right, you have an awesome classic GTO that will run 80mph all day long and run cool while doing so with the A/C running and you'll still get an honest 22-23mpg.



Thanks for the honest reply.:thumbsup: I support the Pontiac engine preference, but understand the LS choice. I suspect that in time when many of us hard-core types are long gone, the LS, or what ever GM engine will find its way into the GTO just as any hot rod does.

What I do argue against are those who say installing a new LS into the older GTO bodies is cheaper than rebuilding a Pontiac engine (389, 400, 428, 455). I find that statement absurd because of all the additional items you MUST install to use the LS engine, 'cause we aren't talking a basic 350CI with a Holley on it. I have done my research on such a swap just to prove to myself that this is not really true. As you stated, "there is a lot to do it properly, its not for amateurs." :yesnod: There* is* more to the swap then "just the engine."

Like geeteeohguy said, you can get in the over 20 MPG range on the highway with a Pontiac engine, I've done it as well, but the stiff rear axle gearing hurts performance, so it was a trade off back then. Today, with the availability of OD automatics and 5 & 6 speed manuals with OD, my bet would be I could now get the blistering take off performance of some 3.73 gearing and highway cruising MPG's with the OD. This is why I went with the TKO-600 5-speed for my project 455. Won't get great mileage with the "old school" build I am doing, but the OD should help on the highway a little.

Again, thanks for your input.


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## gmpgto (Jul 2, 2015)

Hello Jim,
I'm older than you are and an 'old school' guy at heart too. I'm a lucky guy. I have a number of classic cars mostly Pontiac's and Mopars. At this point I have only one restomod LS car. I think the OD's for any extended highway speed driving are really the only way to go. Less wear and tear, they run cooler etc. 
Good luck with your 455 build.


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## crustysack (Oct 5, 2008)

> I guess I'm not doing too bad in my stock, original engine powered '67 GTO ragtop getting 20-21mpg at 80 mph


what tranny and gearing are you running to get that kind of mileage from a 67? 
what kind of rpms are you pulling at 80?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Crusty, stock TH400 with no overdrive, original points dizzy on original 400 with original Q-jet. Engine is .030", 068 cam, with 87cc Pontiac #15 heads. Overhauled in 1988, resealed in 2011. The secret weapon is the stock, freebie 8.2 2.56 posi I bolted in a few years back. My RPM at 75mph is about 2450, and my RPM at 90-91 mph is 3000 even. At WOT, the car shifts from second gear into high gear at 105-107 mph, pulling like a freight train. The 2.56 is softer off the line than my original 3.36, but still burns rubber in drive. The overdrive-like quality of the lazy rear gear has really expanded the usefulness of the car.....it's my 'go-to' vehicle for road trips now. Smooth, quiet, efficient, stylish, and eats up the road. I've had this car for 32 years, and have no plans on changing anything on the drivetrain. May add Vintage Air in the future, though!


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## gmpgto (Jul 2, 2015)

Now that i hear about the 2.56 rear end, that makes sense. My comparably equip'd 67 with 3.36 rear end certainly doesn't get anywhere near 20mpg. At 80mph its 3400rpm. At 90mph about 3850. I think I get around 12-14mpg if I'm not driving it like I stole it.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

geeteeohguy said:


> The secret weapon is the stock, freebie 8.2 2.56 posi I bolted in a few years back. My RPM at 75mph is about 2450, and my RPM at 90-91 mph is 3000 even.


That's about what RPM I get with my 4:11's and the TKO......except I only manage about 3-4 mpg................:leaving:

I'm hoping a change to E85 might double that! Or I may be going back Pontiac to get some real mileage! :suspicious:


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Alky, you're running alcohol and probably 4 times my horsepower. Probably having 4 times as much fun, too. My fun comes when I blow by the gas stations. Different mindset. LOL!!! gmpgto, when I ran my 3.36 gears in the '67, I could squeak out 16mpg on the open road if I behaved. The 2.56 was good for 5mpg. But it added way more in comfort.


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## gmpgto (Jul 2, 2015)

geeteeohguy
you're in fresno?
I own a business down there. Would love to see your car some time. I'll be down there this Thursday if you're around.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

gmpgto: I'll pm you.


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## CptTheAlex (Jul 17, 2015)

Hopefully i won't be tar'd and feathered in the quad for adding in my $.02. 

I find it remarkable that as i read through nearly this entire post, it never turned into a hatefest that normally occurs on forums or the internet, that pretty damn cool.

I'm relatively new to this in general, I might even be one of the more younger classic muscle car owners, at 29. When I bought my '66 Tempest from my aunt the two questions she first asked me was: "You're going to keep it a Tempest, right?" and "I hope you're not planning on dropping a Chevy motor in it?" My answer to the first was of course, in some aspects I think the Tempest is rarer than GTO's now, doesn't really help its value at all, from what I can see, but I didn't purchase this car to flip it. The second question my response was, it's my car I will do as a choose with it. No doubt I am still learning when it comes to knowing what "Pontiac" is all about. I gotta say reading this certainly encouraged me to stick with the Pontiac power train, and I don't see myself moving to an LS motor. My take on how some of you seasoned fella's, with your metaphors of women and cars, I found I couldn't agree more, there is a to each his own appreciation. 

Obviously, I didn't grow up in the muscle car era, instead I had the fast and furious era and truth be told, I'm actually a big lover of Porsche. (hows that for a twist) I actually set back my dream of owning one so I could buy my Tempest. Anyways, before I ramble on too much, this thread, certainly has influenced me, both the die-hards that love original art and the tech's that want an Air-brushed Mona Lisa.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

CptTheAlex said:


> Hopefully i won't be tar'd and feathered in the quad for adding in my $.02.
> 
> I find it remarkable that as i read through nearly this entire post, it never turned into a hatefest that normally occurs on forums or the internet, that pretty damn cool.
> 
> ...


Welcome aboard. Our surely ongoing opinions on the subject will probably go on for a millennia, or at least until the Pontiac engines dry up or are no longer cost effective for the guy who wants to cruise in his old Pontiac -they will become more like "hot rods" than "muscle cars" and under the hood will be traditional type engines of assorted manufacture and probably whatever at the time is the hot ticket engine to use for that generation.

I think you will find that although there are some of us here who are old school who grew up with these cars and have preserved memories if not a Pontiac or two to keep alive those memories, we support and advocate a Pontiac engine in a Pontiac body, especially the GTO. I think we are more tolerant to an LS swap in a Lemans, Tempest, or even the guy who salvages any GTO that should have been scrapped or used as a parts car due to its "junk" condition.

Time and time again, it seems the guys on the side of the LS swap seem to think it is cost effective, ie cheaper, than rebuilding a Pontiac mill. It isn't, period. Are there advantages to the LS swap - sure, and that claim only seems to be supported in the gas mileage comparisons. BUT, my guess is that if I were to calculate the savings in gas mileage over a period of let's say 10 years, it would not off set the additional costs incurred above and beyond what is needed to do the complete LS swap versus what it would have cost to rebuild and install the simpler, less techy, Pontiac mill.

The LS versus Pontiac mill is definitely apples versus oranges, and I would love to see a certified LS dyno'd to 400HP matched against a certified Pontiac mill dyno'd at 400HP(and I don't mean "our LS was dyno'd at 407HP while the Pontiac came in at 392HP so we factored the tests to reflect.......) swapped into the same GTO test car so each test would be equal with regards to trans, gears, weight, tires, suspension, etc.. Which engine do you think would provide the better results? And then I'd like to see a cost comparison that reflected all the electronics and modifications needed to make the LS work in the GTO engine bay that was being used in the tests. Again, which engine do you think would cost more? The Pontiac mill would use cast iron RA exhaust manifolds, points, mechanical fuel pump, Q-jet, etc. - no needed high dollar headers, ECM, sensors, special wire harness, electric fuel pump, etc.

As stated, and I think this is one that LS and Pontiac guys alike can agree on and which makes us all "one" is that* it's your car and do what you want with it to make it your own and not somebody else's*. :thumbsup:


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## CptTheAlex (Jul 17, 2015)

PontiacJim said:


> Welcome aboard. Our surely ongoing opinions on the subject will probably go on for a millennia, or at least until the Pontiac engines dry up or are no longer cost effective for the guy who wants to cruise in his old Pontiac -they will become more like "hot rods" than "muscle cars" and under the hood will be traditional type engines of assorted manufacture and probably whatever at the time is the hot ticket engine to use for that generation.
> 
> I think you will find that although there are some of us here who are old school who grew up with these cars and have preserved memories if not a Pontiac or two to keep alive those memories, we support and advocate a Pontiac engine in a Pontiac body, especially the GTO. I think we are more tolerant to an LS swap in a Lemans, Tempest, or even the guy who salvages any GTO that should have been scrapped or used as a parts car due to its "junk" condition.
> 
> ...



Thanks, Jim. 

I guess one way you can look at it, promote people to go to the LS swap, leaves more availability for guys that truly want to stay as pontiac as possible. :lol: As far as applying new tech to mine, the only plans i really have is upgrading to disc brakes and power steering. For safety and drivability reasons. 

I know for a fact that the 400 motor that i have in my car can be built to run hard and fast, just as good as any LS motor, anyways. My aunt, who i purchased the Tempest from has a numbers matching 68 firebird. The same person she got the Tempest from, built the original motor that was in her 68 bird. I don't know the exact power figures, but i think it ran 10's and i know it did wheel stands, given how bad the front suspension was from the front end slamming down so often. Something i did forget to mention, my car sat un-started/run for two years, the day i got there we got the motor to turn over and run for about 30 sec until the fuel ran out, not only did i about cry in joy, but i was amazed.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Alex, way back in 1979, I had a good friend who was a Porsche fanatic. His brothers raced them. He laughed at my '66 GTO....how big it was. Until he drove it. He could not believe the sheer power and speed it had. (4 speed/ tripower/ 400 engine) _Way_ more fun to drive than his brother's cars. He ended up with his own '66 GTO within 6 months. He's had Pontiacs ever since....and not a single Porsche.


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## maktope (May 22, 2013)

The German engineering is great. I had an audi s6 biturbo, and didn't think twice on selling in it to finish my GTO. Funny thing about finishing my gto is well it wasn't finished decided I wanted to take it to the track. And start building another one with the knowledge I learned from the 1st one. Since I already had a boat load in to the gto and all my friends run ls motors even in their classics that's the rout I decided on. But with everything research is key. For the hp I wanted out of an ls, I had a 492 poncho built, new fuel system roll cage Th400 with Transbreak. And a 250 plate shot of nitrous (which I am now unsure I will install at this point) new suspension in the rear. And still have less money into then just the ls. The thing with pontiac motors is the time. The shop I went too doesn't do alot of pontiacs. But he was on the phone with Kauffman and butler since we bought parts from them the whole time. His friend is the ex owner of pacific performance best known in the pontaic world for their line of tomahawk products. Now if I get ahold of this 70 gto convert from my coworker I might put an ls into it. There's nothing but the shell. It's straight and pretty and I want to give it to my wife. So ls makes a little sense if it breaks down she can take it to the shop if I am out of town. But then again I have a perfect 455 block in the garage. To each their own but the shop working on my car can't wait for it to be at the strip said in the last 3 years they only seen one pontiac powered pontiac in the 10's. And hopefully without the n2 I can get there. Damn n2 started to make me nervous


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

maktope said:


> The German engineering is great. I had an audi s6 biturbo, and didn't think twice on selling in it to finish my GTO. Funny thing about finishing my gto is well it wasn't finished decided I wanted to take it to the track. And start building another one with the knowledge I learned from the 1st one. Since I already had a boat load in to the gto and all my friends run ls motors even in their classics that's the rout I decided on. But with everything research is key. For the hp I wanted out of an ls, I had a 492 poncho built, new fuel system roll cage Th400 with Transbreak. And a 250 plate shot of nitrous (which I am now unsure I will install at this point) new suspension in the rear. And still have less money into then just the ls. The thing with pontiac motors is the time. The shop I went too doesn't do alot of pontiacs. But he was on the phone with Kauffman and butler since we bought parts from them the whole time. His friend is the ex owner of pacific performance best known in the pontaic world for their line of tomahawk products. Now if I get ahold of this 70 gto convert from my coworker I might put an ls into it. There's nothing but the shell. It's straight and pretty and I want to give it to my wife. So ls makes a little sense if it breaks down she can take it to the shop if I am out of town. But then again I have a perfect 455 block in the garage. To each their own but the shop working on my car can't wait for it to be at the strip said in the last 3 years they only seen one pontiac powered pontiac in the 10's. And hopefully without the n2 I can get there. Damn n2 started to make me nervous



I plan on using a 100-150HP shot of nitrous on my 455 just for a little extra get-up-and-go. Like most, I read all the bad experiences and what could happen. So I did some research into technologies that would save an engine using nitrous.

First, I will have a dedicate fuel pump/fuel line for the nitrous system.

Second, I plan on installing a MSD RPM activated window switch, PN#8956, which taylors the On/Off of the nitrous system.

Third, the thing that seems to keep popping up when engines are damaged is when the system leans out. Key is the Air/Fuel ratio and if anything goes sour, you get disastrous results. Here is what I plan on purchasing when I get to the point of my nitrous purchase, PSN-1: PowerSafe Nitrous Bottle Pressure & Wideband Air/Fuel Ratio Gauge. PSN-1 PowerSafe Nitrous Bottle Pressure & Wideband Air/Fuel Ratio Gauge

I feel between the RPM activated switch and Air/Fuel gauge system that my nitrous system will be fairly safe without worry.:thumbsup:


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Jim, you might consider a Hobbs switch tied into your fuel system. If fuel pressure drops it will automatically kill the nitrous power circuit shutting down the solenoids. The air fuel gauge is a good idea but by the time you would react you've already damaged the engine. It's a better tuning aid than anything. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nos-15685nos/overview/

I'd also like to recommend a burst panel. I've seen intake manifolds with huge chunks blown out of them and seen carburetors blown out of hood scoops from nitrous backfires. I filled a motor with nitrous once and split the timing chain cover open when I fired the engine up. :banghead: It also bent the crank shaft. :eek2: https://www.google.com/search?q=int...&oe=&gws_rd=ssl#tbm=shop&q=intake+burst+plate


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

PontiacJim said:


> I feel between the RPM activated switch and Air/Fuel gauge system that my nitrous system will be fairly safe without worry.:thumbsup:


Oh yeah? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ao8zqgweDo

Heres another good one.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--PE6eXlA-I

That reminds me.....if you are running a fiberglass front clip you definitely need a Halon system plumbed to the front of the car. Ask me how I know....


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

ALKYGTO, thanks for the tips/input. The Hobbs switch looks like another good option. The Air/Fuel system doesn't just monitor the Air/Fuel ratio. The specific kit I cited immediately shuts down the nitrous system if the Air/Fuel ratio goes too lean. 

I think a smaller shot, in my opinion, is a safer bet. Those who start going above 150HP levels have to worry about more conditions. I think the guys who go with the multi-stage 300 to 600HP systems are only asking for trouble -one malfunction and poof. Spay bars seem to be a safer bet as well. Those Youtube vids are not typical, but crap happens. Adding some safety features is a smart route to go, just like when using a blower - gotta use a little common sense. :thumbsup: Sorry you have had all the "Murphy Laws" follow you on your car builds. Mine is just a black cloud 24/7. :lol:

Nitrous tips: Nitrous Oxide Basics Explained


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## 1964SS (Dec 2, 2015)

WoW! What a great thread! It took me two days to read through it all. 

I'm not so much a purest as some of you are, but I've also been a fan of all GM since I was a little kid growing up. My dad drag raced in the late 60's and 70's and as I grew up so did my love for cars. I bought my first car in 1988 "1964 Chevelle SS" at the age of 17 and I still own it. Through the years my chevelle became a supergas drag car and has now been converted back to a street car now LS powered.

I feel the power plant of any vehicle should fit the rest of the build. If a GTO is being restored to factory or even an old school hotrod then is needs to have that poncho power in it. If it's being built as a pro touring car then I have no issues at all seeing a modern engine and drive train in it because that is what it's all about, a classic car with all the modern handling and amenities of a new one.

With that being said I must say that the 64 GTO I purchased in December is going to be a 389 tri power car, but I think I'm going to be ditching the 2 speed auto for a 5 speed manual. I'll keep you updated on my build thread.

BTW here's a good read on my Chevelle. It was in Chevy Hardcore magazine in December. 
Homebuilt Hero: Mike Allen's 1964 Chevelle


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Mike,

Very cool, I like the car, the write-up, and the fact that you have had it since 17. Also like that you did the different engine combo's - like it better when you realized that an engine can be too big or too radical to truly enjoy on the street. 

That said, this is the beauty of a Pontiac engine over a Chevy, torque along with HP that is very streetable and will still put you back in the seat without a lot of high dollar aftermarket products or upgrades. Adding an LS engine just so your car can be classed as a "pro touring" car is not even a legitimate excuse to go LS. What do you think GTO stands for? It is an Italian abbreviation for Gran Turismo Omologato, ("Grand Tourer Homologated") which means officially certified for racing in the Grand tourer class. The GTO _was_ a "pro touring" car before the term "pro touring" became vogue -and the term "pro touring" will fade away in time, but the name GTO will stand the test of time as it does today.

I don't understand why people turn to the LS engine when you can upgrade any Pontiac engine with many of the same features if its electronics or aluminum your gotta have. Several of us here on the forums have owned Pontiacs that got over 20 MPG's. Most will argue that the LS has more HP, but Pontiacs are about torque at lower and mid-range power bands. By the time a Chevy hits these higher HP ranges, it has to be wound up tight and the Pontiac has already pulled away - keeping in mind that we are talking about cars weighing in at 3,600 -3,800 pounds.

Another thing to think about, Pontiac engines are all the same dimensions outside, no small block or big block designation or easy ID by size. Kinda neat when you can build a big cubic inch engine out of that 389CI and make it look all original, and have an engine swinging a huge 480 cubic inches!! http://butlerperformance.com/c-1234...es-stroker-kits-389-blocks-421-480-cu-in.html Talk about sleeper, and only you and your machine shop will know for sure. Add the TKO-600 so as to handle the torque, a Ford 9" set-up with Pontiac bracketry and sporting a set of 3.89 gears........well, you tell me if you still think an LS engine is the ticket. LOL. And you won't need a big cam or need to spin high RPM's because the torque you will have will probably have your tires squealing with delight in an attempt to grab traction in conjunction with the TKO gearing and the 3.89's out back, yet put in OD and cruise all day long at 70+ miles and hour and I suspect fairly acceptable gas mileage with a correctly set up tri-power. 

Of course, as always, just my Pontiac opinion and why I own one. I like all cars, old & new, its just my 4-speed stick swings Pontiac! LOL


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

My reasons, personal I freely admit, for disliking the LS in any platform is that it has already become ubiquitous -- you see them everywhere and in everything -- and thus to me, boring. Boring just like the SBC is to me. As soon as I see one in a car, I think to myself, "Here's another 'me too' build that required zero thought and zero creativity." Again, this is just me and my opinion, I don't expect others to agree and it doesn't bother me if they don't.
I did see one in a Firebird on the Power Tour, and whoever built it put in a lot of effort to disguise it and make it look like a Pontiac V8 - and I appreciated THAT.

Obviously, they make very good power and also have outrageous fuel economy for the power they make, and that's just not fair!

I tend to go in for things that are different, not even necessarily fast. Like this old Nash wagon that has a flathead six that does not have either an intake manifold nor an exhaust manifold. The carb and exhaust bolt directly to the head and block, respectively. talk about different...


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## 1964SS (Dec 2, 2015)

PontiacJim said:


> Mike,
> 
> Very cool, I like the car, the write-up, and the fact that you have had it since 17. Also like that you did the different engine combo's - like it better when you realized that an engine can be too big or too radical to truly enjoy on the street.
> 
> ...


Hey Jim, You've got some valid points there and I can agree with some of them, while others I'll agree to disagree. :grin2:

As you stated GTO is a great touring car, but I can't classify it as pro touring unless it's suspension, drive train and power plant is up to date. Now with all the modern additions to the pontiac motor it can fall in the pro touring class, but it comes at an enormous cost as compared to an LS engine. 

50 years is a very long period of time and there have been leaps and bounds of technology advancements over those years.

Are you aware that the LS block is very much like the pontiac blocks in that it's all the same size now? You can have a tiny 4.8 liter 292ci all the way up to a 500ci in the same form factor and not be able to tell the difference. How about over 700hp and 630lb with a little 248/254 hydraulic cam. Talk about sleepers.  

Then you've got the Y block design. You can't argue that it's one of the strongest and best designed blocks in history. Throw in the 6 bolt mains and the option of an all aluminum power plant and it's easy to see why so many people are using them.

I will agree that the GTO motor will live on forever as so many other "fads" come and go. I'm not so sure that the pro touring will disappear since it is almost timeless as well, but the LS motors will definitely grow old and soon the new LT1 motors will be the latest and greatest engines to swap in until the next generation is released.


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## JEM Racing (Jul 14, 2016)

I owned a 67 GTO 400 back in 1970 and now have a perfectly restored 1977 Pontiac Trans Am 400 TA.
Neither car has any RPM guts and are all done at 5000 RPM, vs an LS at 6500 or A Chevrolet Big Block at 7000 RPM.

I have 22 collector cars, from 64 Corvette Fuelie to 66 427 Vette to 1970 Dodge Challenger Hemi 528, but none can hold a Candle to my 1967 Chevelle powered by a new LS7 with Procharger for 1000 rwhp. Also have 3 stock LS2 powered Rods, all run way better than stock Muslce car era powerplants.

Hey its a HOT ROD, not a Duesenburg or Ferrari. Hot Rods are always about upgrading to more modern powerplants, no one thought my High School 1955 Bel Air was bad because it had a 64 327 Corvette Fuel and 4 speed vs 283 powerglide!!!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

BearGFR said:


> I tend to go in for things that are different, not even necessarily fast. Like this old Nash wagon that has a flathead six that does not have either an intake manifold nor an exhaust manifold. The carb and exhaust bolt directly to the head and block, respectively. talk about different...


Yeah, different! Here is my buddies 1955 Rambler wagon, I recall 58,000 miles on it. Check out the period correct aftermarket aluminum finned head (only 100 produced) and the twin carbs. Has an S-10 5 speed conversion. Car is perfect & flawless.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

JEM Racing said:


> I owned a 67 GTO 400 back in 1970 and now have a perfectly restored 1977 Pontiac Trans Am 400 TA.
> Neither car has any RPM guts and are all done at 5000 RPM, vs an LS at 6500 or A Chevrolet Big Block at 7000 RPM.
> 
> I have 22 collector cars, from 64 Corvette Fuelie to 66 427 Vette to 1970 Dodge Challenger Hemi 528, but none can hold a Candle to my 1967 Chevelle powered by a new LS7 with Procharger for 1000 rwhp. Also have 3 stock LS2 powered Rods, all run way better than stock Muslce car era powerplants.
> ...


Once again, apples and oranges. I just don't understand why guys who have exotic engines always seem to feel they have a leg to stand on when comparing it to a Pontiac engine.

Lets see, LS7 engine - aluminum block, 6-bolt cross bolted mains, forged crankshaft, featherweight titanium connecting rods, and friction-coated pistons. CNC-ported aluminum heads that enables its tremendous power. Large-volume, straight-passage intake runners channel air directly through 2.20-inch titanium intake valves and sodium filled exhaust valves - plus all the other goodies to numerous to mention. MSRP Price - $16,503. Add the Procharger around $6,500 and all the changes and adjustments to make it work and well, we have a price tag of ?????? Super Chevy did an LS9 with a supercharge and here is what they said,"Of course, we can’t discuss a 1,000hp/1,000-lb-ft, LS9-blown engine without bringing up cost. Thomson doesn’t dance around the cost so neither will we. It’s $40,000. It is what it is."

So how do you feel an LS7 with Procharger is any kind of a real comparison to an iron block/head Pontiac engine? Now, if you wanted to get real in your comparison, sink $25 - $30K into an aftermarket IA aluminum Pontiac block, a pair of fully prepped KRE heads (or maybe a complete aftermarket Ram Air V top end), all the lightweight forged goodies, roller this and that, and throw in a procharger, twin turbos, or supercharger and then you might have a comparison. 

Again, either you get it or you don't. A GTO is not a Hot Rod any more than a Duesenburg isn't a Classic or a Ferrari isn't Italian, it falls under the category of "Muscle Car" to which is a specific era in automobile history. A '55 Chevy was never a part of the muscle car era even if you owned a Black Widow - so it can only become a hot rod in doing upgrades. Sticking in ANY Bowtie powerplant destroys the GTO muscle car image and, yep, drops its collector car value, turns it into something it never was, and inflates the ego of its owner who brags more about the engine, its power, and how much he spent like he made a big improvement over the engineers at Pontiac who didn't know what they were doing when they built the car in the first place. :banghead:

Where's Art Arfons 'cause I'm going to stick a jet engine in my next GTO and call it a Hot Rod and lets see which one of you LS boys can claim bragging rights as to how great the LS engine is. :yesnod: "Damn the torpedos, full Pontiac ahead!" :thumbsup:


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## 1964SS (Dec 2, 2015)

Any built up engine can rack up some serious dough. My argument is on the other end of the spectrum. My entire LS motor with computer and harness was $2k. I've seen some crazy people trying to get $2K for just a tripower intake and carb setup so the LS is less expensive to do then finding that matching poncho in many cases there for you get much more for you money, but as Jim stated they will fade off in time where as the original motor will always be cool in the GTO.

If it's a weekend warrior or show car I would stick with the pontiac power, but for a real driver I would swap to an LS.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

" My entire LS motor with computer and harness was $2k."

OK, you got it cheap, BUT, you will now have to fit that engine into the car......it isn't simply a bolt in. Engine mounts, oil pan, (engine sets back about 7" more), water hoses, trans, trans mount, drive shaft, fuel system, etc.. 

So the super deal on the LS begins to creep right back up to what it would cost to rebuild (maybe even less than) the Pontiac engine without having to fabricate or swap out anything.

The only advantage I can truly see is gas mileage and nothing more. :thumbsup:


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

_The only advantage I can truly see is gas mileage and nothing more._

I almost went LS when that POS CVMS rebuild shat the bed with less than 500 miles on it but stuck it out and found a quality engine builder to do it right.
My Poncho loves it's fuel but that 400 sure sounds good going 120+ uphill.
It still had more but I ran out of road.

With a rebuilt suspension and disc brakes it rode like it was on a rail.
It was at 230 degrees when I got to the twisties and shut it down but went back down to 210 by the time I made it up to Crestline.
It really motors for a 50 year old car.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

PontiacJim said:


> OK, you got it cheap, BUT, you will now have to fit that engine into the car......it isn't simply a bolt in. Engine mounts, oil pan, (engine sets back about 7" more), water hoses, trans, trans mount, drive shaft, fuel system, etc..


Amen and amen.... :thumbsup: Unless all you want to do is compare engine dyno sheets, the only way to get any real enjoyment out of an engine is to put it into a car and drive it. The engine is just part of the whole package.

Bear


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## 1964SS (Dec 2, 2015)

PontiacJim said:


> " My entire LS motor with computer and harness was $2k."
> 
> OK, you got it cheap, BUT, you will now have to fit that engine into the car......it isn't simply a bolt in. Engine mounts, oil pan, (engine sets back about 7" more), water hoses, trans, trans mount, drive shaft, fuel system, etc..
> 
> ...


Mine has been installed for over 3 years now. The motor sits in the stock location which is called a 1" setback because there is no lip behind the head on an LS. Motor mounts are $60. These aren't expenses that differ from any poncho install expense. Hell even my transmission mount is the same in my chevelle. 

Now I do everything myself so there's no expense there. I'm sure that if a shop was being paid to do the work it could get very expensive for some people. :grin2:


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

1964SS said:


> Mine has been installed for over 3 years now. The motor sits in the stock location which is called a 1" setback because there is no lip behind the head on an LS. Motor mounts are $60. These aren't expenses that differ from any poncho install expense. Hell even my transmission mount is the same in my chevelle.
> 
> Now I do everything myself so there's no expense there. I'm sure that if a shop was being paid to do the work it could get very expensive for some people. :grin2:


OK, I get you, you can do your own work. I do as well. So you are saying that if I sourced an LS engine & harness for 2K, that I'd be able to bolt it into my '68 Lemans for the price of the $60 engine mounts? Sounds like a sweet deal and can see why it is done. 

Hmmm. I think I might just sell my 455 builder which I have more than 2K into it and get me one of those 475 HP/525 ft lbs of torque @ 5800 RPM LS engines and bolt it up to the Turbo 400 trans and go. What was I thinking. :banghead:
:thumbsup: :lol:


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## 1964SS (Dec 2, 2015)

LOL! I understand they aren't for everyone Jim.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

1964SS said:


> LOL! I understand they aren't for everyone Jim.


Dude, I'm tella ya, there is a Chebby LS Hades :reddevil: for those who put an LS in a Pontiac engine bay. :yesnod:


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## Brer Rabbit (Dec 11, 2006)

*My 67 is LS1 powered. No regrets*

The reality is the original 360hp HO motor from my car was sold by my father around 1973 to pay some over due bills when he got hurt at work requiring back surgery and an extended recovery time.. My father is still alive and going strong at the age of 77 and although I have no memory of riding in this car as a child I do remember him saying he always wanted to put a Small block chevy in the GTO one day. I started the restoration of this 20k mile car but putting the car back to original specs is simply reckless. Manual steering and manual drum brakes is just dumb. The car is almost done at this point and 4 wheel disc brakes and an aluminum LS1 with 4l60 makes the car significantly lighter and will handle way better than any original factory equipped 67 GTO. This car will be super reliable and efficient (should get at least 20mpg) and most likely will outrun pontiac powered cars if that matters to anyone. My father has checked on the car numerous times and is absolutely thrilled about the drive train. I respect anyones opinion on all matters (except Hillary supporters) but I care more about what my Father thinks over anyone else. Cant wait to hand him the keys and watch him drive away with mom in his GTO for the first time since late 73.


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## Brer Rabbit (Dec 11, 2006)

And to address a segment from the original post....there are a ton of LS powered mustangs running the streets. Even the Ford guys know a superior product when they see it. There is no comparison between LSX engines and old boat anchor pontiac motors. 6 bolt mains hydraulic roller cams and really good flowing heads with fuel injection. U cant beat it.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Jim, I have to say; I'd MUCH rather see a Pontiac FIRST in a Pontiac. That said, I don't get that same cringy feeling when I see an LS under the hood as I do when I see a .........SBC, you know, the 350 with the Edelbrock everything and the metal sleeved hose covers? Damn, gotta go look at my signature to get that vision out of my head.......


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

ALKYGTO said:


> Jim, I have to say; I'd MUCH rather see a Pontiac FIRST in a Pontiac. That said, I don't get that same cringy feeling when I see an LS under the hood as I do when I see a .........SBC, you know, the 350 with the Edelbrock everything and the metal sleeved hose covers? Damn, gotta go look at my signature to get that vision out of my head.......


Why I oughta........ I think I am seeing a trend as to what is happening here. As time moves forward, real men who used to drive real cars, you know, manual steering, no power brakes, drums, and skinny tires, knew how to drive them BECAUSE we grew up behind the wheel of one. We knew how to power shift, chirp gears, put 'er sideways and ride it out 'til it straightened out, were quick to the draw when it went sideways at speed and knew how to correct, but not oversteer, knew the brakes for what they were and didn't ride up someone's tailpipe or bully push them down the road (and we got tickets back then for following too close), and speed limits were 55 MPH, 60 MPH got you a ticket, lane changes without signals got you tickets, cutting people off could get you a knuckle sandwich, and courtesy actually existed amongst drivers, even when we were racing one another.

What we have today are whimps, the male species of our society who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag (they rather use a gun than a fist or, talk about it), couldn't pour pee out of a boot if the directions were written on the heel (because mechanical aptitude has been traded in for cyber technologies and Pokemon quests), and don't really have any interest in experiencing or preserving history past by doing the right thing and keeping a first generation Pontiac GTO pure in engine.

If the *Pontiac* engineers of old did such a poor job and the *GM* engineers of today did such a good job, then buy a second Gen GTO that already has the LS engine, computer controls, power disc brakes, modern 5-speed, superior handling, bigger tires, etc.. There is the expression that says you can't polish a turd, and the first Gen Pontiac GTO's must be that turd because these jaboney's of today seem to want to polish the old turd with second Gen GTO technology and act like they did something good. I say buy the modern GTO with all its LS power and modern amenities and leave the old turd of a car to us old farts who know how to drive, work on, and appreciate them for what they were and are - a real man's muscle car. :thumbsup:


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## Brer Rabbit (Dec 11, 2006)

*where am I?*



PontiacJim said:


> Why I oughta........ I think I am seeing a trend as to what is happening here. As time moves forward, real men who used to drive real cars, you know, manual steering, no power brakes, drums, and skinny tires, knew how to drive them BECAUSE we grew up behind the wheel of one. We knew how to power shift, chirp gears, put 'er sideways and ride it out 'til it straightened out, were quick to the draw when it went sideways at speed and knew how to correct, but not oversteer, knew the brakes for what they were and didn't ride up someone's tailpipe or bully push them down the road (and we got tickets back then for following too close), and speed limits were 55 MPH, 60 MPH got you a ticket, lane changes without signals got you tickets, cutting people off could get you a knuckle sandwich, and courtesy actually existed amongst drivers, even when we were racing one another.
> 
> What we have today are whimps, the male species of our society who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag (they rather use a gun than a fist or, talk about it), couldn't pour pee out of a boot if the directions were written on the heel (because mechanical aptitude has been traded in for cyber technologies and Pokemon quests), and don't really have any interest in experiencing or preserving history past by doing the right thing and keeping a first generation Pontiac GTO pure in engine.
> 
> If the *Pontiac* engineers of old did such a poor job and the *GM* engineers of today did such a good job, then buy a second Gen GTO that already has the LS engine, computer controls, power disc brakes, modern 5-speed, superior handling, bigger tires, etc.. There is the expression that says you can't polish a turd, and the first Gen Pontiac GTO's must be that turd because these jaboney's of today seem to want to polish the old turd with second Gen GTO technology and act like they did something good. I say buy the modern GTO with all its LS power and modern amenities and leave the old turd of a car to us old farts who know how to drive, work on, and appreciate them for what they were and are - a real man's muscle car. :thumbsup:


If I didn't know better I swear I was reading a speach given at the DMC last week. :surprise:


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## Brer Rabbit (Dec 11, 2006)

How far did u walk to school during white out conditions?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Brer Rabbit said:


> How far did u walk to school during white out conditions?


I didn't. I drove the always reliable and dependable Pontiac with under-the-seat heater (remember those?) and a good defroster. Vacuum wipers were a pain, but if you let off the gas they went much faster. Enjoyed the drive all the way to school listening to the AM tube type radio which had to warm up a couple minutes before it came on. The 4-speed Dual-Range Hydramatic had a really good low gear and made that car fly. Manual shifting the 4-speed automatic was the best. What a blast. And I wouldn't ever think of dropping a Chevy small block of the day in it 'cause I would have simply bought a cheap Chevy from the get go. I used to beat Chebbies with the old Pontiac. 

Did you know they installed Pontiac engines in the GMC because it had more power and torque than the Chevy engine put in it and that's what was needed in a truck for pulling power. Ya, Pontiac rules and it was Chevy who turned to Pontiac to get it right -don't forget. :yesnod:


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## 1964SS (Dec 2, 2015)

LOL! Your a funny guy Jim, I can see you have a hatred for Chevrolet for some reason. I personally love Chevrolet, but I also love Pontiac. I love many GM cars, but for me it's GM only. I don't care for any Ford or Dodge.

You do know that the LS motor is not a Chevrolet motor right? It a GM motor and utilizes designs from Pontiac, Buick and Olds as well. It's a masterpiece of all the designs rolled into one.

I should post a LS powered old goat just see those nostrils flare up. LOL :grin2::wink3:


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

1964SS said:


> LOL! Your a funny guy Jim, I can see you have a hatred for Chevrolet for some reason. I personally love Chevrolet, but I also love Pontiac. I love many GM cars, but for me it's GM only. I don't care for any Ford or Dodge.
> 
> You do know that the LS motor is not a Chevrolet motor right? It a GM motor and utilizes designs from Pontiac, Buick and Olds as well. It's a masterpiece of all the designs rolled into one.
> 
> I should post a LS powered old goat just see those nostrils flare up. LOL :grin2::wink3:



Chevy engines are great in a Chevy. Have owned several Chebbies, even built up a nice 350CI in one. Here is my '65 Impala SS Convert. Originally a 283/powerslide. Picked up a 1965 340 HP 409CI for $150, and then proceeded to rebuild it with the big port/valve 690 heads, dual 750 AFB's, a radical custom ground Chet Herbert solid grind cam, Mallory dual point distrib., factory type header exhaust manifolds and 3" pipes. Had both a 4-speed and TH-400 behind it turning a big Olds posi with 3.08 gears and M-50 tires. Could get air under the front tires. that engine would rip your head off - good times, good memories. Being a "Pontiac" guy at heart, I sectioned a bent '68 GTO hood onto the '65. Long smokey burnouts were as easy as matting the gas pedal and always common. 8-10 MPG's.

I like and appreciate all cars, but favor Pontiacs. I've owned more cars of different types than I can count - they were cheap & fast when I was young, not really collectibles. 

But you can't love chevies and love Pontiacs, its fuzzing up your perceptions and is obviously spilling into some form of imaginary fantasy where LS engines are becoming a blurred projection in crossing over your real love for Pontiacs while still clinging to your love for chevies by infusing the LS engine into the Pontiac form. I think what is really happening here is that childhood traumas are being played out with the "Pontiac" (masculine) imagery representing your rough & tough side and the "Chevy" (feminine) representing your softer & gentler side. In some internal conflict you struggle in choosing the masculine (Pontiac) over the feminine (chevy) and rather than make a commitment, want to blend the two - Pontiac (masculine) on the outside, chevy (feminine) on the inside. I am here to say it's OK to keep the Pontiac as a Pontiac with its masculine Pontiac powerplant while still keeping the chevy as your feminine side with its LS powerplant. You could own 2 cars to accomplish this. You drive the masculine Pontiac/Pontiac engine car during the day when people will see you, and you drive the feminine Chevy/LS engine at night where you won't be seen nor have to explain anything. It'll be our forum secret. :wink2:

Yep, the LS is a GM homogenization that took many different groups to get right and I think the Japanese had a big hand in it too. On the other hand, it only took the genius of Pontiac division engineers, without any outside help from GM. Funny how those Pontiac guys came up with the name GTO and the GM guys could not come up with anything else that would have been of meaning........so they stole the old Pontiac Division's name and tried to build a fast GM car around it. Hmmm. Did it work? Apparently not because Pontiac folded. How's that for karma. Ya just don't mess with a Pontiac namesake and throw in an LS engine. :yesnod: :thumbsup:


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

PontiacJim said:


> Why I oughta........ I think I am seeing a trend as to what is happening here. As time moves forward, real men who used to drive real cars, you know, manual steering, no power brakes, drums, and skinny tires, knew how to drive them BECAUSE we grew up behind the wheel of one. We knew how to power shift, chirp gears, put 'er sideways and ride it out 'til it straightened out, were quick to the draw when it went sideways at speed and knew how to correct, but not oversteer, knew the brakes for what they were and didn't ride up someone's tailpipe or bully push them down the road (and we got tickets back then for following too close), and speed limits were 55 MPH, 60 MPH got you a ticket, lane changes without signals got you tickets, cutting people off could get you a knuckle sandwich, and courtesy actually existed amongst drivers, even when we were racing one another.
> 
> What we have today are whimps, the male species of our society who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag (they rather use a gun than a fist or, talk about it), couldn't pour pee out of a boot if the directions were written on the heel (because mechanical aptitude has been traded in for cyber technologies and Pokemon quests), and don't really have any interest in experiencing or preserving history past by doing the right thing and keeping a first generation Pontiac GTO pure in engine.
> 
> If the *Pontiac* engineers of old did such a poor job and the *GM* engineers of today did such a good job, then buy a second Gen GTO that already has the LS engine, computer controls, power disc brakes, modern 5-speed, superior handling, bigger tires, etc.. There is the expression that says you can't polish a turd, and the first Gen Pontiac GTO's must be that turd because these jaboney's of today seem to want to polish the old turd with second Gen GTO technology and act like they did something good. I say buy the modern GTO with all its LS power and modern amenities and leave the old turd of a car to us old farts who know how to drive, work on, and appreciate them for what they were and are - a real man's muscle car. :thumbsup:


Yeah, I would have put a Pontiac in my GTO but at the power level I was at the Pontiac block most likely would have split in two. And give me a break, you can't honestly tell me better quality modern suspension and brakes make a car less "manly"? And a 5 speed with 4:11's isn't wimpy....its common sense. Go ahead and sweat your glands off in the slow lane while your turning 3000+ rpm trying to maintain 60 mph. Then sloooowww down by jumping on your 4 wheel drums as you struggle to go around the gentle curve of the off ramp at 40 mph. :boxing_smiley:

And BTW......I built my entire car with my own two hands, I paid NO ONE else to do anything but the machining on the block.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

ALKYGTO: "you can't honestly tell me better quality modern suspension and brakes make a car less "manly"?

Me: "Manly" in the sense you had to muscle or use your muscles to operate the cars of old. Better quality modern suspensions & brakes do indeed make the car less "manly", but far more safer which takes precedent over "manly" steering, suspensions, & drum brakes of old.

ALKYGTO: "Yeah, I would have put a Pontiac in my GTO but at the power level I was at the Pontiac block most likely would have split in two."

Me: Ok, the jury is out on this one. Butler states they have successfully run a Pontiac block with supercharger at the 1,000 HP level with no problems. The "split the block" comes from a statement made by Arnie Beswick. No reason was given as to why or what caused the block to split other than too much power. Agreed, a Pontiac block was designed to meet the demands of little 'ole grandma and her 4-door sedan as well as shred tires via the RA option. The block, as many know, will flex, and is why you will read about putting "hard block" in the water jacket to stiffen it up when used at higher HP levels. (In 1962, Jack Chrisman's supercharged 450CI/421 with Mickey Thompson Hemi heads was dyno'd at 760 HP on gas and 1,000 HP on nitro @ 6,100 RPM and was estimated to make 1,200 HP as it hit 7,000 RPM's in the traps. He won the AA/D Class NHRA Nationals in 1962 doing an 8.76 @ 171.75 MPH) 

However, many of the early Pontiac drag racers, Brutus ( but the M/T Hemi headed Pontiac could not stand the excessive amounts of nitro. A 392 Chrysler with Pontiac stamped on the valve covers replaced the pure Poncho motor), Mr Unswitchable, Arnie Beswick, Mickey Thompson, and others used supercharge/nitro 421SD engines in their classes. Must have been a sturdier block, or just because it had 4-bolt mains - but it also had the larger mains which are often said to provide less strength to the block. Of course these had forged cranks, rods, pistons, etc.. I read that these engine were OK up to a 25% mix of nitro, but give it more and the engine would break - even today Building A Supercharged Pontiac 400 Big-Block Engine - Hot Rod Magazine Perhaps Beswick found this out as well. Also wondered how they were secured in the frame, solid engine mounts or motor plates back then? If solid engine mounts, you can only imagine the torque being applied to the side of the block an this would surely create problems- maybe even split a block.

That said, the Pontiac could most likely handle the likes of a supercharger IF properly built - which means $dollars, whereas a Chevy is a better candidate for supercharging and undoubtedly cost much less $dollars. So, to make the statement, "I would have put a Pontiac in my GTO but at the power level I was at the Pontiac block most likely would have split in two" has merit, but it may have not split in two as well. This is a fine example of "Schrodinger's Cat" - its a matter of perception until you actually build a supercharged Pontiac and we know if it splits in two or not. :thumbsup: I say it doesn't. :yesnod: And it kicks Chevy butt.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

*Pontiac powered*



ALKYGTO said:


> Beautiful GTO there VetteDoctor! I gotta ask though.....Is it LS powered or Pontiac Powered?
> 
> So, How many of you "heretics" (I'm one!) get asked when the hood is shut whether or not your Pontiac is Pontiac Powered?


 Old post I know, But good reading.When I drive up most anywhere my car gets the stares and thumbs up. But they are drooling waiting for me to open up the hood and see American Muscle. And it never disappoints. 1967 GTO post 400 3 speed manual 3:55 rears.


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## rumblebox (May 17, 2019)

There's no way I'm going to read all the replies here, but here's my take:

1. It's your car. It is yours to do with as you please, and it is nobody's business what you do with it...... because it's yours. They can talk shit, but it's still yours. This is still kinda sorta a free-_ish_ country. So when i hear people say shit like "There oughta be a law against ________" or "If you do ___________ to your Pontiac, you should have it taken away" i have a real problem with that mentality. Ironically, it's often said by people who _think_ they love the Constitution..... but i digress.

2. The LS swaps aren't popular because they're cheap. They were popular when they were still _really_ expensive. They're popular because they're an amazing feat of engineering with minimal complication. The fact that they're readily available on the cheap now just adds to their already righteous popularity. While some things are popular because of successful marketing to ignorant people, other things are popular simply because they really are _that_ good. The LS and Gen5 LT engines are the latter.

Now...... here's _my_ personal opinion on swapping an LS/LT into a 1st/2nd gen GTO or something else as valuable or historically significant. If it's numbers-matching, I would _absolutely_ stay true to the original to preserve the history and investment value. However, if I come across one that has already had the colors and engine changed(my exact situation), and I want to build the ultimate driver's car(I do), there's no logical reason whatsoever to pick a Poncho engine over an LS/LT engine. Are you kidding me? The reliability, efficiency, serviceability, power, weight, etc. are untouchable by any old school engine whatsoever. As i mentioned above, I'm not taking the cheap route either. I'm going to spend probably as much building a proper big-cubed LS engine as i would finding/building a proper 389 or a hopped up 400 or 455.

You mentioned the GTO being the baddest ass car on the street at the time. Well.... now my 5000# Yukon Denali with a mere 376 cubes will absolutely obliterate this car with no mercy in a straight line _and_ an autocross course. So by swapping a modern engine into the 1st gen GTO, I'm actually revitalizing it to it's former glory of being able to _at least_ compete with most everything else on the street. To me, that does the car more justice than keeping it slow, clumsy, and relatively unreliable for the sake of tradition.

Regarding the "manly" comments, I've seen enough shit to not bother entertaining remarks starting with, "Real men _______" or "Real cars __________" etc. If you need manual brakes, manual steering, a carburetor, floppy suspension, and a manual transmission to feel like a real man...... I don't know what to tell you.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

rumblebox said:


> There's no way I'm going to read all the replies here, but here's my take:
> 
> 1. It's your car. It is yours to do with as you please, and it is nobody's business what you do with it...... because it's yours. They can talk shit, but it's still yours. This is still kinda sorta a free-_ish_ country. So when i hear people say shit like "There oughta be a law against ________" or "If you do ___________ to your Pontiac, you should have it taken away" i have a real problem with that mentality. Ironically, it's often said by people who _think_ they love the Constitution..... but i digress.
> 
> ...



Either you get it or you don't, and you don't. " Well.... now my 5000# Yukon Denali with a mere 376 cubes will......" Ah, the old apples and oranges argument. Well .....now my buddies Hemi rat rod will obliterate the Denali .......

You obviously used the Strawman Argument, very clever. "It can be annoyingly effective because in response you may be lured into clarifying what your position is not instead of talking about what your position is, and studies have shown that when you repeat a lie, even if you are repeating it to refute it, _the repetition can make you more likely to believe that the lie is true_." Just keep believing the lie that the LS is better.

"Ironically, it's often said by people who _think_ they love the Constitution..... but i digress." 

Really? What's next, it's often said by people who don't want to go "green" and don't believe in "climate change" and "aliens" and the "shadow government" and leprechauns and Mother Goose.... but I digress.

A real American drives American iron, not a confused multi-cross constructed GM "corporate" engine that isn't sure if its Chevy, Oldsmobile, Buick, Cadillac, or GMC, but doesn't want to offend or hurt the feelings of the others as being brand specific. Used to be a time when a Pontiac engine was engineered by Pontiac, Buick engines were engineered by Buick, Oldsmobile engines were engineered by Olds, and Chevy engines were engineered by Chevrolet - those were the days of real American cars and not this one size fits all brands because we don't want to upset anyone or make then choose a specific brand and offend others who don't.

I say throw out the Constitution and bring back the Laws of the Bible and an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and the ownership of multiple wives and concubines. :thumbsup:


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## 11th Indian (Feb 15, 2018)

_“A real American drives American iron, not a confused multi-cross constructed GM "corporate" engine that isn't sure if its Chevy, Oldsmobile, Buick, Cadillac, or GMC, but doesn't want to offend or hurt the feelings of the others as being brand specific. Used to be a time when a Pontiac engine was engineered by Pontiac, Buick engines were engineered by Buick, Oldsmobile engines were engineered by Olds, and Chevy engines were engineered by Chevrolet - those were the days of real American cars and not this one size fits all brands because we don't want to upset anyone or make then choose a specific brand and offend others who don't.”_

Please elaborate on those statements. Pontiac – a division of General Motors employed Americans to design and build their engines just that same as every other division of General Motors. Decades later the LS engines were still designed by General Motors employees, though they may have not been specially affiliated with a particular GM division. I don’t see that making them any less American


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Im with GeeTee, 53 years old and in the old 8mm films when i was 2 years old (67') i always remembered seeing moms 64 Lemans and dads new 66' GTO that i was brought home from the hospital in. Just the styling drew me in, the car looked like it was going 100 mph sitting still and i could imagine what that scary front end looked like to a chevelle, GSX, Mopar, Ford...etc. as it closed the gap fast and passed him. I ended up having 7 firebirds growing up from 69' thru 76' all had a pontiac power plant. There is a reason they came up with the GRRRRRRR! marketing. Even my wife can tell a pontiac motor from 3 blocks away. When you step on the go pedal the note is distinctive.

The GTO was always my Unicorn, i missed out on one before buying the 69' bird as my first car against mom and dads wishes of getting something sensible. My argument was, you had them when i was young. As a kid you dream of all the things you will do to them when you get some money... but we did what we could to just keep them running. I put the restoration of an early Pontiac on my bucket list in my mind and i would do it just as i dreamed as a broke 17 year old. it would have pontiac power and subtle mods that retained the Pontiac style and purpose.

Flash forward 27 years and i run into the Tempest on line just trolling, not planning to get into a car resto, but just the sight of the front end staring at me re-ignited my love for these mechanical works of art. i purchased the car sight unseen for a good price without telling my wife and had it trucked 1200 miles just for the good foundation and unmolested factory body that had been sitting in a car port since 76'. The trucking gave me time to break it to my better half...not a fun drive....lol. But she was aware of my love for them since we had our first date in the 69' and she put up with all the birds and a fun 71' Nova mustang GT eater until we had 
children. 

Original plan was to do GTO clone but as i got into it the nearly pristine driver trim and budget dictated it stay a Tempest which i had no problem with. when it came to motor i had accumulated 3 good blocks to work with. two 455's and a virgin 400. the first running 455 went in after resto and ended up eatting its main bearings after 1200 miles for an undetermined reason. Second try i went all out with forged Eagle stroker kit to 462 assembled by a reputable speed shop who's owners wife had a 69' bird in polar white just like mine. That sealed the deal in a world where the mention of a pontiac usually left a puzzled look on a mechanic. Dyno put the new motor at 470 hp and 508 Tq with a flat tq curve from 2500 - 5200 redline. Every drive puts a smile on my face like that 17 year old. with recent additions of RA 2" manifolds and an old offy dual quad setup with RA pan and dual 600 demons this thing is as scary as the look of the front end, and i LOVE it. Even with the 2:56 rear end it shreds street tires at a stop or roll with just as easy mash of the pedal and when it grips it hunches down and pulls like a freight train up until it scares you off the gas due to hydroplaning. in my eyes and experience, its all about torque, HP sells motors, Tq wins races and no motor out there makes more torque out of the box than the revolutionary old pontiac design. No one made a block that covered their whole engine line-up in one casting. and like jim said you could take a page out of Royal Pontiacs Playbook and scrub an extra 50 HP out of the motors with out breaking in to them, perfect for us shade tree mechanics.

This is my opinion, "its JUST a Tempest", but it still has the pontiac heritage and that means a pontiac block in my mind. And any car that wants to test the 326 may find a tiger hiding under the hood not a SBC!


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## pcguy (Jul 7, 2014)

I guess I have to admit, I'm not a purist. Link to the build thread below:


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

All I can say is, "I like putting a standard wrench to my nuts". Lol


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

11th Indian said:


> _“A real American drives American iron, not a confused multi-cross constructed GM "corporate" engine that isn't sure if its Chevy, Oldsmobile, Buick, Cadillac, or GMC, but doesn't want to offend or hurt the feelings of the others as being brand specific. Used to be a time when a Pontiac engine was engineered by Pontiac, Buick engines were engineered by Buick, Oldsmobile engines were engineered by Olds, and Chevy engines were engineered by Chevrolet - those were the days of real American cars and not this one size fits all brands because we don't want to upset anyone or make then choose a specific brand and offend others who don't.”_
> 
> Please elaborate on those statements. Pontiac – a division of General Motors employed Americans to design and build their engines just that same as every other division of General Motors. Decades later the LS engines were still designed by General Motors employees, though they may have not been specially affiliated with a particular GM division. I don’t see that making them any less American



Borrring response. :banghead: Now you are going to play the Strawman argument.

A real American is one born of the Baby Boomer generation where life was well defined: ethics, morals, values, courtesy, and an understanding of "right" and "wrong" was the national backbone that was adhered to rather than not.

Each car company was a separate division and brand that ran itself. They competed against each other, trying to out do the other in style and/or engine options. Until the mid-1970s, most General Motors brands *designed and manufactured their own engines with few interchangeable parts between brands*. In the mid-1960s, there were 8 distinct and separate families of GM V8 engines on sale in the USA.

In the early 1980's, GM consolidated its powertrain engineering efforts into the GM Powertrain Division so as to standardize its engines so that engines/engine parts were interchangeable between brands thus minimize production costs and increasing profits. Later, GM expanded into ownership of other European makes bringing their foreign engine technology into the fold, provided engineering assistance as needed to their GM global subsidiaries around the world, and GM worked out engineering sharing agreements with other car manufacturers. But the biggest factor in such an engineering consolidation was the cost of certifying so many different engines for tightening *worldwide emissions regulations* which threatened to become very costly. 

So, was the LS engine reeeally designed by American employees, or were ideas and other technologies gathered from foreign sources? Keep in mind the 2004-2006 GTO is not even American, its from Australia. So how in heck can you even compare an American built 1964-1974 GTO with an American built engine to an Australian built 2004-2006 _Flop_ just because it uses a GM engine? See below the partial list of foreign engines used in GM cars. Kinda the same, except reversed.

GM was a parent company, an umbrella to not only cars, but many other divisions as well. They had/have aircraft engines, automotive engines, big truck diesel engines, etc.. And lets not forget all the foreign engines stuffed into GM brands like the *Isuzu* G161 SOHC straight-4 used in the Chevrolet Chevette, the *Toyota* A engine Inline 4 used in the Geo Prizm, the *Toyota* DOHC Inline 4 used in the Pontiac Vibe, the *Opel* "ECOTec" DOHC straight-4 used in the present Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid, and the list goes on.

So with your LS thinking, because it is from GM, and it was wedged into an Australian badge car called a GTO, that the LS or LT engine is an acceptable use in a once formally powered Pontiac brand car with its own separately engineered engine having no interchangeable parts with any Chevy engine of the day, small or big block??

If this is your thinking, which in my opinion certainly is, then I suppose any GM produced engine, whether it be gas or diesel, car, truck, or train, would be an acceptable substitute for any Pontiac powered Pontiac because is was manufactured by, or affiliated with, the GM Powertrain Division. It'll be a sad day when I see an Opel engine under the hood of a GTO because some Millennium or Generation X light bulb genius offers up an argument that it was manufactured by a General Motors employee and it doesn't matter what contry they were from.

A real American car is a car brand that is _autonomous_ and not a corporate concoction melded together from a mixing pot of various global auto manufacturers and/or engineering agreements designed to create a generic powerplant so as to minimize cost and maximize profits, and....... to meet global emission regulations. A real American car can be quickly identified BECAUSE it lacks most all emissions BS and did not give a damn what global countries thought of them. atriot:

_A real American is one who drove a real American car and didn't give a damn what global countries thought of them, my generation, the Baby Boomers._ atriot:


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## 11th Indian (Feb 15, 2018)

_A real American is one born of the Baby Boomer generation where life was well defined: ethics, morals, values, courtesy, and an understanding of "right" and "wrong" was the national backbone that was adhered to rather than not._

I guess my parents and grandparents that fought in WWI, and WWII were not real Americans? Or my brother that was wounded in Desert Strorm, thanks for enlightening me. 

_Each car company was a separate division and brand that ran itself. They competed against each other, trying to out do the other in style and/or engine options. Until the mid-1970s, most General Motors brands designed and manufactured their own engines with few interchangeable parts between brands. In the mid-1960s, there were 8 distinct and separate families of GM V8 engines on sale in the USA._

So?? What’s you point? They were all General Motors employees and everything they did, everything they created and every penny their respective divisions earned went to where???? 

_In the early 1980's, GM consolidated its powertrain engineering efforts into the GM Powertrain Division so as to standardize its engines so that engines/engine parts were interchangeable between brands thus minimize production costs and increasing profits. Later, GM expanded into ownership of other European makes bringing their foreign engine technology into the fold, provided engineering assistance as needed to their GM global subsidiaries around the world, and GM worked out engineering sharing agreements with other car manufacturers. But the biggest factor in such an engineering consolidation was the cost of certifying so many different engines for tightening worldwide emissions regulations which threatened to become very costly._ 

GM made medium to poor quality cars (depending on the day of the week) that were no better than their peers built in America, and went unchallenged until the late 70s and early 80s. Once foreign competition started to influence the domestic auto industry the party was over. 


_So, was the LS engine reeeally designed by American employees, or were ideas and other technologies gathered from foreign sources? Keep in mind the 2004-2006 GTO is not even American, its from Australia. So how in heck can you even compare an American built 1964-1974 GTO with an American built engine to an Australian built 2004-2006 Flop just because it uses a GM engine? See below the partial list of foreign engines used in GM cars. Kinda the same, except reversed._

The LT series of engines from the late 80s and the first LS1 built in 1997 were General Motors creations, that powered multiple vehicles with much success. They put out more power and consumed less fuel per cubic inch while doing it, didn’t need to be rebuilt every few years and were embraced by the aftermarket and new car customers. 

_GM was a parent company, an umbrella to not only cars, but many other divisions as well. They had/have aircraft engines, automotive engines, big truck diesel engines, etc.. And lets not forget all the foreign engines stuffed into GM brands like the Isuzu G161 SOHC straight-4 used in the Chevrolet Chevette, the Toyota A engine Inline 4 used in the Geo Prizm, the Toyota DOHC Inline 4 used in the Pontiac Vibe, the Opel "ECOTec" DOHC straight-4 used in the present Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid, and the list goes on.

So with your LS thinking, because it is from GM, and it was wedged into an Australian badge car called a GTO, that the LS or LT engine is an acceptable use in a once formally powered Pontiac brand car with its own separately engineered engine having no interchangeable parts with any Chevy engine of the day, small or big block??_

I don’t know what your drinking or smoking , but I sure would like some!!!! I have no idea what your even babbling on about, I never said anything about putting an LS in a Pontiac, I was asking how your determined what a real American drives?? Funny, I never really considered basing not just what car you drive but what engine is in it as a criteria for determining if you’re a real American. 

_If this is your thinking, which in my opinion certainly is, then I suppose any GM produced engine, whether it be gas or diesel, car, truck, or train, would be an acceptable substitute for any Pontiac powered Pontiac because is was manufactured by, or affiliated with, the GM Powertrain Division. It'll be a sad day when I see an Opel engine under the hood of a GTO because some Millennium or Generation X light bulb genius offers up an argument that it was manufactured by a General Motors employee and it doesn't matter what contry they were from._

I guess what it comes down to Jim is reading comprehension. Maybe you need to reread my question, no where do I touch on an engine transplant, or suggest its my preference to put an LS engine in an early model Pontiac, but I can assume that because I also have a 2014 Corvette Stingray, powered by an new generation LT engine, I am not a real American… Hmmmm. But If I put a Pontiac engine in that car, would that make me more patriotic?

_A real American car is a car brand that is autonomous and not a corporate concoction melded together from a mixing pot of various global auto manufacturers and/or engineering agreements designed to create a generic powerplant so as to minimize cost and maximize profits, and....... to meet global emission regulations. A real American car can be quickly identified BECAUSE it lacks most all emissions BS and did not give a damn what global countries thought of them. _

I am sure I not the first person to point out that its been decades since the auto industry worked that way. Nostalgia is nice, and I like driving a car built before the days of gender neutral bathrooms, but nostalgia doesn’t sell new cars in quantity.

I just installed a Tremec 5 speed in my numbers matching 72 GTO....... Now i dont know what I am? Damm, i may be a freaking commie!!!


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