# Barn find Judge



## Jamco973 (Sep 28, 2009)

Hi, I have come across what appears to be a 70 Judge sitting on an old farm. I have spoken to the owner of the car and he tells me that it is in fact a real 70 Judge with a 400/400 and rare ac. The vin on the dash was to dirty to read clearly and he is finding me the title this week. I am a Trans Am guy and would like some info on this car if anyone can help. It has a Ram air hood (functional with the handle under the dash), Judge emblem on the dash, there was a rear wing (stolen) and he told me the trunk spring was heavy duty due to the wing but the only thing that I question is the vinyl top. It is original white with black interior which I think most Judges are orange or blue. Anyone?


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## Jamco973 (Sep 28, 2009)

*Barn find Judge pt 2*

Just a few more pictires of the car. Also the car has a 140 mph speedo and tach. The door panels have a GTO emblem as well. If anyone can help in letting me know if its a real Judge or not it would be greatly appreciated. I can have this car with a lot of parts for $2,000.


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 30, 2009)

*Help*

Maybe this will help, It is supposedly all the specs on the 70.
Possibly you can check all the other info like body tags, tranny and rear end and colors to help insure.

1970 GTO Specifications - UltimateGTO.com


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## even steven (Feb 27, 2009)

judges for 1970 could be had in any available gto color.this car has all the tell-tale signs of a judge,unless somebody added the ram-air pans and graphics along with the glove box emblem.have you seen the car in person?if you can,check the casting # on the heads.if it is 12 or 614,then it's probably a ram-air 3 or iv motor,which is what the judge would have come with.the only sure way to tell is a phs report.so get the vin # and pay the 60.00 or so and you'll find out in a couple of days.if this turns out to be authentic,then this would be the deal of your lifetime.good luck.


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## Jamco973 (Sep 28, 2009)

I had seen this car today and snapped a few pics. I didnt grab the numbers off the block. The guy has had this car for 25 years and just let it go to what you see today. The block and trans are original though. Are there any companies making repo parts for these cars? Like a Ram air hood?


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## even steven (Feb 27, 2009)

ames performance makes the aftermarket hoods for 70,but you would have to cut some under-bracing for the ram air components.if i were you,i would find a nice solid donor car and use it's metal.you can probably find an original ram-air hood,but it's going to cost quite a bit.how's the frame?


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

The PHS is the only real way to tell. Chances are its the real deal, the quest to clone wasn't then what it is now. The wheels as depicted in the pic are not GTO but back then many purchased aftermarket. Those wheels are cheapy steel. Could be a variety of reasons for them being on there. Hood scoops are the correct color. Judge decal on the fender is missing, (after all these years could just be missing) was there decals on the other places? 
One interesting thing I noticed.... no tach either on the hood (I don't see a hole in the hood) or in dash. The dash indicates a clock. I don't recall a judge without a tach but it could have been ordered that way, the PHS will indicate it.


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## even steven (Feb 27, 2009)

thats funny judge,i noticed that also.could it be the angle of the photo,and as he stated,the original wing was stolen,maybe the tach was swiped also and we can't see the hole from the photo?


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

If there are holes in the rear deck it will indicate a missing spoiler. If not then this would indicate otherwise. Ahhhhhh the things one can uncover researching. LOL


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## even steven (Feb 27, 2009)

sorry judge,just looked at the first post and the photo clearly shows no tach.could that have been a special order?although i don't know why someone would choose the clock over a tach.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

OK,,,, I merged the threads I didn't see the other pics now I do.
I am thinking this is a clone.

1. The trim rings seen on the driver side were not an option on a Judge, it was a factory delete however they were a dealer ordered part and could be gotten as an add on.
2. No Tach
3. Unless there are holes in the deck lid no spoiler.
4. No judge decals and no indication they were on although the stripes are in tact.
5. No "GTO" on the left grille but that's mute could have been stolen... however the grilles are black.
6. Not seeing a chin spoiler (air foil) but I have seen pics of judges without them
7. If glove box is missing the emblem and there are no holes in it where it used to be this is another sign of a fake.

It is a Ram Air engine, the engine alone could be worth the cost of the car.

Again, the PHS will confirm.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

even steven said:


> sorry judge,just looked at the first post and the photo clearly shows no tach.could that have been a special order?although i don't know why someone would choose the clock over a tach.


That's what I thought. The only thing I am seeing that it is correct for a Judge is color of the scoops, and the RA. I am seeing more inconsistencies with this being a Judge than not.


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## even steven (Feb 27, 2009)

good points,can't wait to hear the verdict on this one.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I am no Judge expert, but there's something about this car that makes me believe it's the real thing. If it's a clone, it was done LONG before anybody bothered......back in the day, they would have put the spoiler on, but not bothered with the correct Ram Air knob and stripes. I'm hoping it's a real one. Nice find.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

geeteeohguy said:


> I am no Judge expert, but there's something about this car that makes me believe it's the real thing. If it's a clone, it was done LONG before anybody bothered......back in the day, they would have put the spoiler on, but not bothered with the correct Ram Air knob and stripes. I'm hoping it's a real one. Nice find.


I was thinking the same thing. Cloning them out was not like it is now but 25 + years ago someone may have put some stripes on it. As I looked closer at it just from the pics provided too many inconsistencies with it being real but who knows, back then there was no real consorted effort to preserve them. I hope it is real though, the polar white is a nice color. The rear deck spoiler would have been black. Someone may have snatched it. I hope there is a follow up to this I am intrigued.


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## Jamco973 (Sep 28, 2009)

GTO JUDGE said:


> I was thinking the same thing. Cloning them out was not like it is now but 25 + years ago someone may have put some stripes on it. As I looked closer at it just from the pics provided too many inconsistencies with it being real but who knows, back then there was no real consorted effort to preserve them. I hope it is real though, the polar white is a nice color. The rear deck spoiler would have been black. Someone may have snatched it. I hope there is a follow up to this I am intrigued.


Thanks for the upkeep. I did see the holes in the trunk where the spoiler once was and there was holes in the glove box door where the now broken emblem once was. I do not recall a tach but didnt check to see if there was one in the dash next to the speedo. It was however a 140 speedo if this helps. All of the wheels were stolen and now sit on rollers as well


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Jamco973 said:


> Thanks for the upkeep. I did see the holes in the trunk where the spoiler once was and there was holes in the glove box door where the now broken emblem once was. I do not recall a tach but didnt check to see if there was one in the dash next to the speedo. It was however a 140 speedo if this helps. All of the wheels were stolen and now sit on rollers as well


I can see the clock set in the pic. I am puzzled as to why a clock and no tach. I am puzzled as to why the stripes but not the decals. Someone could have peeled them off. It very well could be the real deal and most probably is then if the remnants of the stolen items are there. If you are interested in the car you can get an expedited Vin verification from PHS, that is an additional 15.00 cost I believe. That motor is the ticket item here. Those other parts are easily obtained. Let us know how you make out with it if you pursue it.


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## Jamco973 (Sep 28, 2009)

GTO JUDGE said:


> I can see the clock set in the pic. I am puzzled as to why a clock and no tach. I am puzzled as to why the stripes but not the decals. Someone could have peeled them off. It very well could be the real deal and most probably is then if the remnants of the stolen items are there. If you are interested in the car you can get an expedited Vin verification from PHS, that is an additional 15.00 cost I believe. That motor is the ticket item here. Those other parts are easily obtained. Let us know how you make out with it if you pursue it.


*Thanks, I am making the arrangments to have the car removed this upcoming weekend and I will post new info from time to time!*


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## Bobbyg (Jul 22, 2009)

My 70 Judge has the clock option (code 492, 14.04). No tach in mine either.

With the automatic, you punched it and held on!!! 

cool:cool


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## ramairthree (Feb 28, 2009)

Great find.
There is a ton more technical details and posts to search if you check the Performance Years GTO forum.


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

Man that car is ROUGH. If you guys like em that way, I'm looking to sell my GP & Chieftain...


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

What year GP?


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## indymanjoe (Aug 2, 2009)

i hope the original poster keeps us updated,i hope it is a real judge.hate to see it go to waste no matter what it is


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Over a year ago, a poster found a nice original '66 in a barn on some property that was purchased. Nobody knew it was even there. He posted pics, etc., but never got back to us. We don't know what happened with the car. Trails go cold, interests change, etc. Lets HOPE we're "kept in the loop" on this one!!!


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## NEEDLEZ (Oct 21, 2009)

WOW, I have a '70 goat, but mine is not a judge. All I can say is that I would steal the numbers and let that POS rot. I restored mine I am gonna post some pics tomorrow. I would like to get my hands on that front valance though im rocking an aftermarket flexi one, I feel bad for the guy whos molding that endura front end


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

Rukee said:


> What year GP?


1964, with a 400HO from a '67 or '68 Firebird in it, which I had rebuilt with a hotter cam (still have the card w/ specs) and 1.6:1 roller rockers. It's also a 4 speed (not sure if its an M-21 or M-22, or numbers matching for that matter), plus an extra 2bbl 389.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

NEEDLEZ said:


> WOW, I have a '70 goat, but mine is not a judge. *All I can say is that I would steal the numbers* and let that POS rot. I restored mine I am gonna post some pics tomorrow. I would like to get my hands on that front valance though im rocking an aftermarket flexi one, I feel bad for the guy whos molding that endura front end


I assume you are joking right? I hope so. Know what a doppleganger is? 
That remark is a reason why I cover a portion of the vin on my car at shows.


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## BillGTO (Oct 16, 2009)

:willy:All I can say is good luck, and start saving!


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## jasonc32amg (Jul 2, 2006)

It would be great to restore...the only things that would stop me would be a lack of skill, money, and time


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## johnnylightning03 (Nov 27, 2007)

GTO JUDGE said:


> I assume you are joking right? I hope so. Know what a doppleganger is?
> That remark is a reason why I cover a portion of the vin on my car at shows.


:agree 
i never thought of covering a vin. thats a good point. you can't be too safe any more.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

johnnylightning03 said:


> :agree
> i never thought of covering a vin. thats a good point. you can't be too safe any more.


If anyone wants to read just how easy it is to steal a cars identity and clone it to an original which could get the owner of the real car in dire straits there is an excellent article of this in the Jan 09' issue of Pontiac Enthusiast magazine. 

Just at a show yesterday a guy was going around videoing show cars. I saw him filming my window display PHS document I post. The last 7 numbers are whited out and the vin on the dash is covered with a show placard. Not saying this is what the guy is up to but it just shows how easy it is to get that and the data plate info.

It is wise NOT to display the PHS information however I like looking at the peoples faces when they see what the car cost and the prices of options were back then.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Hopefully, Needlez realizes that VIN swapping is a federal crime, a felony, and bad news for everybody involved. I for one will do everything in my power to report and have arrested anyone that I find involved in this practice.
Jeff


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