# Race or not thats the Q



## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

So Ive purchased parts from Kauffman to produce a HP engine around 500hp in 65 GTO with a 67 block. all new parts aluminum heads race pistons. I took them to a machinist after 7 weeks he says hes scared of putting them together its beyond his knowledge. OK. So I found an excellent machinist rally knows his stuff. He told me to forget the pistons "you will have to buy race gas at $10 gallon". I talked to JK he said send the pistons back its OK. The machinist says he'll install pistons that will be 9/1 compression which run on pump gas but will be around 360hp. Im thinking when the time comes I want to sell down the road I would like to have at least 450hp. Thats what seems to be the high selling point, HP & torque. Any one have any input ? Would help in my decision. He says he'll do whatever I want, nice guy a bit grumpy though. Im at a quandry.


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## Sick467 (Oct 29, 2019)

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most of the folks that can afford buying a nice (higher end) old GTO build would rather have a more streetable car than bragging rights to 450 HP. I could be wrong. I think I would push for that 1 HP per cubic inch and stop there. This can be done with 91 or 93 octane.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

That's where a stroker kit helps, my 461 has about 9.4 compression, iron ported heads and Butler dynode it at 472hp with a stock intake and I use 93 octane with no problem, and with aluminum heads you should be able to run close to 10:1 on pump gas... then I swapped in an Edelbrock Perfomer RPM, Quickfuel 850, 1.65 rockers, electric fan so I would think I'm pretty close to 500hp. just a thought unless you're to far into it and don't want to spend more money on changing it.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

i think with a 400, KRE heads, the right cam/exhaust and even with compression friendly pistons you will be around 400HP, which given the torque these engines make will be sweet.

I'm no expert, but if you want more HP than that it seems a stroker crank is the best bet.

interesting old thread here:
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500+ hp from a pontiac 400?


I would like to get 500+ hp out of my stock pontiac 400 (67 firebird).:drive: I would also like to accomplish this without nitrous... any suggestions? It does have the 6X heads... in case that helps. Also... if any one has taken this route could you give me an estimation on the cost of...



www.pro-touring.com




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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

I just read all this its pretty much what I have KRE aluminum heds performer intake Holley 850. machinist says I will have to run race gas with the pistons. Low profile, he said send them back I'll have custom built and you can run pump gas will be around 370hp. I was hoping for at least 450hp. Kauffman built it for me to be around 500hp. I dont know wtf to do. I can go his route and pickup a 3/2s setup I was thinking.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Maybe it's time for a new engine builder one who's familiar with Pontiac's 👍


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Didn't mean to sound like a jerk, what you should do is go on Butler's site in their gallery look at the motors they usually tell you what's inside and the HP then look at their crate motors, you'll see most are strokers running on pump gas same with KRE look at their motors. If you want call Butler and ask their opinion they're super nice and helpful, 450hp is totally doable on pump gas but now I don't know your car but you have to answer these questions before you strap in a 500 hp motor....do you have the right cooling, clutch, trans, yokes, drive shaft, rear end, you don't want to be calling a tow every time you put the hammer down. What about traction 500hp does no good if you can't get it to hook meaning traction bars ,tires mine was scary with the regular Micky Thompsons, I had to put on drag radials or thought I was going to end up like Harrison Ford in American Graffiti upside down in a ditch on fire or worse yet like Paul Walker. Now what about safety..got disc brakes to stop the beast, I didn't back in the day with a .30 over 428 tri power with manual drums..I couldn't stop the thing, got three point seat belts? I put them in after I saw what my motor could do and after watching Jay Leno rolling over four times in the Hemi Under Glass video! And I wouldn't worry about resale someone wanting a GTO isn't thinking it's only got 360 hp not 500 they want it for the car, if they want a bracket racer they'll go get a Chevy. If you try and get 500hp without a stroker it's going to have to be high compression, major head work, huge cam and I don't think your tri power has enough cfm's for 500hp or a turbo/blower running on race gas and not very streetable and I don't think you're going to be very happy with it. Just my buck 380 of opinion but others that know more might chime in


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## 11th Indian (Feb 15, 2018)

What exactly do you want to do with this car? Are you looking to run it down the quarter mile? Spirited street driving? Sell quickly?


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

Spirited street driving. I like that I will eventually sell it as Im 68 and when my wife retires were going to move and I dont want to haul it around. About 6 years. I shopped for 2 years to fins a 65-67 GTO 4 speed was hard less than $40k. So I know the market fairly well and I noticed the ones with high hp were the ones that sold. My feeling is thats what they want. Big hp for the small penis.😀But it (my car) should be about 450 or so thats fine.


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## Dukes67 (Jun 19, 2018)

Droach6498 said:


> Spirited street driving. I like that I will eventually sell it as Im 68 and when my wife retires were going to move and I dont want to haul it around. About 6 years. I shopped for 2 years to fins a 65-67 GTO 4 speed was hard less than $40k. So I know the market fairly well and I noticed the ones with high hp were the ones that sold. My feeling is thats what they want. Big hp for the small penis.😀But it (my car) should be about 450 or so thats fine.


I’m not sure if the car you have is the one that I posted on this forum for sale or not? It was a red 65’ located in Utah from what I remember? If you’ve got a 67’ block then you have a good base to build on. I wouldn’t recommend going crazy on the HP (400-450) and I would argue that a more tame engine is a more resealable car. Most of the guys that want them are in their 50’s-70’s and an engine that starts pushing beyond the 450hp range gets to be more of a nuisance to drive. Even in this range your stock rear end with stock tires is up against it’s limits. Going beyond this in tire size and HP and you’ll be swapping the rear end out too. As far as an engine builder I would highly recommend searching out someone that is familiar with the Pontiac engine. They’re not an overly complex engine to build but there are a lot of little things that must be accomplished and known by the builder. Cooling assemblies, blind oil galley plugs etc. . I would not settle personally until I found someone that is very familiar with this engine. Where are you located?


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## 11th Indian (Feb 15, 2018)

Droach6498 said:


> Spirited street driving. I like that I will eventually sell it as Im 68 and when my wife retires were going to move and I dont want to haul it around. About 6 years. I shopped for 2 years to fins a 65-67 GTO 4 speed was hard less than $40k. So I know the market fairly well and I noticed the ones with high hp were the ones that sold. My feeling is thats what they want. Big hp for the small penis.😀But it (my car) should be about 450 or so thats fine.


Cant say I agree with that market assessment, I have found that buyers were more interested in origionality than modifyed cat in the bag builds... Of course having a dyno sheet to actually back up those Hp claims and a recent stack of bills from the machine shop showing all the work would help.... but good luck at any rate.....


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

Dukes67 said:


> I’m not sure if the car you have is the one that I posted on this forum for sale or not? It was a red 65’ located in Utah from what I remember? If you’ve got a 67’ block then you have a good base to build on. I wouldn’t recommend going crazy on the HP (400-450) and I would argue that a more tame engine is a more resealable car. Most of the guys that want them are in their 50’s-70’s and an engine that starts pushing beyond the 450hp range gets to be more of a nuisance to drive. Even in this range your stock rear end with stock tires is up against it’s limits. Going beyond this in tire size and HP and you’ll be swapping the rear end out too. As far as an engine builder I would highly recommend searching out someone that is familiar with the Pontiac engine. They’re not an overly complex engine to build but there are a lot of little things that must be accomplished and known by the builder. Cooling assemblies, blind oil galley plugs etc. . I would not settle personally until I found someone that is very familiar with this engine. Where are you located?


SF bay area, east bay
Your probably right, my machinist is adament about installing pistons that are more how to say stock like and running pump gas. I think its a good thing so Im going in that direction. He is very fussy. I had the block honed and bored, he doesnt like it so hes redoing it. He sonic tested it and checked all the prior work. Hes known around here for being, grumpy and a Guru of engines. Hes backed for months. Im old like him so we get along really well.
As far as the car from Utah yes this is the one, the seller was Chris Jones and hes either a crook who misrepresented the car knowingly or is stupid. The car didnt last 3 months until it over heated I removed the radiator and water pump it was a pile of rust inside. When I first got the car and every time I started it I noticed a bit of smoke upon starting which told me there were some interior leaks, valve guides or whatever. There are electrical problems, the body may be the worst, driver door has to be slammed to close, the both front Q panels dont line up with the cowl, it goes on and on. I talked with him and text, email at least 7-10 times prior to the sale he told me everything was fine. He said All the dash gauges work. The tach doesnt work or the speedometer. Hes lucky hes in Utah. Hopfully karma will get him. He also said he does this all the time. Finds old cars fixes them up and sells them. Beware


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Sounds like the deutsch bags I bought my car from, lied through their teeth finally got 5K back from them after threating a lawsuit....see my feedback on Google for King of Kars in Woodbury or Woodward NJ, father and son scum bags !


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## Dukes67 (Jun 19, 2018)

Sorry to hear you’ve had so many problems with the car. I never saw the car myself, just reposted the ad that I saw on the local classifieds in case someone was looking. I know it’s tough to get anything moving right now. I’ve been backed up for months waiting for a cam for another engine I’m building due to lack of steel at Comp Cams or any other after market manufacturers. It sounds like you’ve got a good path on the engine build.


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

Dukes67 said:


> Sorry to hear you’ve had so many problems with the car. I never saw the car myself, just reposted the ad that I saw on the local classifieds in case someone was looking. I know it’s tough to get anything moving right now. I’ve been backed up for months waiting for a cam for another engine I’m building due to lack of steel at Comp Cams or any other after market manufacturers. It sounds like you’ve got a good path on the engine build.


I have all the parts, Im sending the pistons back at the advice of the machinist, he says it will take 3 months to get the custom ones, wah. You got $5k back wow! So I looked up the K of K theres a bunch of complaints going back 12-15 years.
I just went to the Good Guys you could buy just about all the parts you need there for alot less. Couldnt find Pontiac valve covers thats why I went few other things, a guy there sells 3-2s setup I talked to him about Pontiac says he has a setup at his place not there sells for $1600 thats with the manifold dont know about throttle linkage I didnt spend much time with him Im not doing that setup I would like to my machinist doesnt like it says its not a good setup so screw it I dont mind really.


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> That's where a stroker kit helps, my 461 has about 9.4 compression, iron ported heads and Butler dynode it at 472hp with a stock intake and I use 93 octane with no problem, and with aluminum heads you should be able to run close to 10:1 on pump gas... then I swapped in an Edelbrock Perfomer RPM, Quickfuel 850, 1.65 rockers, electric fan so I would think I'm pretty close to 500hp. just a thought unless you're to far into it and don't want to spend more money on changing it.


This sounds alot like my setup will be when done


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

So your going with a stroker kit ? I would still call Butler or Kauffman or The Tin Indian


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> So your going with a stroker kit ? I would still call Butler or Kauffman or The Tin Indian


I got all my parts from Jeff Kauffman. I didnt realize(ignorance) it would run on race gas. he never said I never asked we talked Torque and hp not gas. So having 450hp to 470 is fine with me. I put a brace in the front tried to put one in the back but the exhaust is on the way I would have to remove it to get it in and I just had it installed. But theres alotto do with the car. Theres several thousand in body work & touchup paint. Interior is good stock vinyl but new. Radio doesnt work or the speaker is shot the radio works I beleive. But who listens to a radio when driving a car like that. Not me I want to hear the engine. I'll be lucky if its running by jan 1.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

What braces are you talking about? ..ha ya I put a thousand dollars into my sound system, bluetooth subwoofer and I hardly ever play it I like listening to the motor and exhaust...oh well live and learn 👍


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

Front end attach frame to frame at suspension, very simple install. Rear not so ez exhaust was in the way so I returned it.


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

Heres the brace in red


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