# '66 or '67?



## Shred03 (Jan 24, 2011)

Hey guys, I am totally new to this site and excited to be apart of it. Bare with me if I mess up or anything. I grew up with my dad owning a 1968 GTO convertible with factory bench seat and column (automatic) shift, his first car! I always loved it and swore I would get one someday. Well I did and this is the problem..

I got my 67 LeMans about a year and a half ago for my first car. Previously, I had a '76 Trans am with 400-4 that I kept and put in the LeMans since it was just body and interior. I absolutely love it and am currently restoring it. The only problem is I don't know what the story is behind it. It has the '66 tailights with the crescents on the outsides of the tail panel. The VIN tag and data tag on the firewall however say it's a '67. I've tried researching this and so far nothing. All i could get was that it was a '67 built in the first week of January. But wouldn't they have switched to the new style by then? I've also looked for maybe some welding around the tail panel or something odd like that. The VIN has not been changed and neither has the data tag. Another note is that it doesn't have the louvers behind the doors like a '67 would. 

So what is it?! 
Much help is appreciated. 

Thanks again, I am excited about being apart of this forum.


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## bobby326 (Dec 13, 2009)

i could be wrong so dont go directly by me but i think you have a 67 tempest. it almost exactly the same as a lemans except it has different tail light, those half round looking ones and it doesnt have the loovers on the side quarter panals like the gto. there are prob other differences but i dont know what they are. and i think some tempests have a molding on the front fenders. other guys on this sit can tell you more. there are guys on this site that know alot and can really help you with info on pontiacs. ive learned alot


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## Shred03 (Jan 24, 2011)

You could be right but I've researched the vin and the code comes out to be a lemans and not a tempest. I'm not new to GTO's and learned and know a lot from my dad when he restored his. 

Thanks for your help though! I see yours has seen its better days


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

welcome to the forum Shred, i have a 66 Tempest custom and it has the cresents as did the 66' lemans only the Lemans had a 4' x3" PONTIAC fluted chrome panel between the lights instead of just a badge. what does the header panel look like on your car, does the chrome trim wrap under the nose, if so thats 67'. as stated the Tempest and tempest custom in 66' and 67' used those taillights the custom would have a full length body side trim. and the 67 Lemans should have shark gill trim in front of the rear wheels which the 66 did not have. post some pics and we can figure it out. What does the passenger dash bar say on it. Tempest had the name with no grab bar. Lemans and gto had both bar and tag. seems to me though that i have seen a 67' lemans with those tailights, wonder if they may have started the year with the 66 panels and changed them out mid year as thats the first year the GTO was its own model and the tailight treatments differentiated the three models Tempest/Lemans/GTO....:confused Personally i like the crescents the best of the three, especially with the big chrome bar between them, so i picked one up for mine, not correct but who can not like a full chrome A** end










http://s1098.photobucket.com/albums/g372/instg8ter/1966 Tempest/

Brian


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## Shred03 (Jan 24, 2011)

Thanks Brian! It's been driving me crazy. I'd have to agree, my favorite is the crescents like we both have. Mine does have the chrome bar going across the back. It also has LeMans and bar on the dash. No gills in front of the rear tires though or on the front fenders like the 66s had.

I also couldn't figure out how to post pictures since I'm new :lol:


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

see if you can look behind the quarters for the filler worms where they might have deleted the gills. on your front header panel the piece around the grilles, does it have a 1/2" chrome trim that wraps under the nose tip?, if so it's a 67' the 66' has no nose chrome and would be like a double wishbone shape. it's definitely a Lemans you can decode what month it was built, it may have been built in late 66' for 67' model year with 66' tailpanel (stranger things have happened). mine was built in dec. 65' and has the 65 style headliner, mid 66' they switched to your style.

For pictures the easiest way is set up a free photobucket.com account and make an album with all your pics, great for chronicling your restore also. then just click on the IMG code of the picture you want to show and paste it in your post. you can also put your album address in your signature as link to it like this...

ohhh and i have the trunk eyebrow chrome too, is just off for paint prep...

1966 Tempest pictures by instg8ter - Photobucket


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## Shred03 (Jan 24, 2011)

It was built in the first week of January in 67. i still don't know what you mean with the whole grill thing. It looks like nothing attaches to that x shape piece in the front. It looks like they just sit in there and that they're one piece.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

thats a 66' front end and a GTO hood

this is a 67'


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

very interesting, the changes between 66' and 67' were just that nose piece, rocker panel trim and the taillight treatment on the exterior. so if your car is tagged a 67' 

a.) it was sold early year and made with 66' parts...hmmm (could see taillights but not both back and front)

b.) it has been re-done with 66' and GTO parts (hood) possibly a started clone project

Either way its a bad a** pontiac and it gives you a great story to go with the car, Pontiac did do some weird things as they were changing the cars styling every two years. Mine is ending up a tribute to all things Pontiac, using Lemans tail chrome, GTO grilles w/just the "pontiac" badge in them, hood tach (not available until 67'), and looking for GTO hood but all badges will be Tempest and original


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Pontiac did not use prior-year parts on following year models....not body panels, anyway! They would not have been able to sell the vehicles if they looked a year old when new. Door handles and nuts and bolts were cycled on, yeah, but everything else was date coded and done in order. (rear ends, trannies, engines, intakes, manifolds, etc. etc. ALL '67 Tempests and Leman's had the rectangular tail lights. The '66 crescent did NOT come on ANY '67 cars from the factory. I too like it much better than the '67 style, in fact, the '66 Tempest is a "cleaner" looking car to me than the '67. That said, either the VIN and trim tags were changed, or the front grilles and tailpanel were. I'd be checking the VIN on the LR frame rail to see what's REALLY going on!!! What I see is a '66 model.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

:agree What he said. We need a good, clear pic of the VIN tag and rivets. 
Sounds like a "rebody".


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## RUNVS (Aug 7, 2009)

? replacement parts or clone ? the vin should tell all


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## Shred03 (Jan 24, 2011)

Like I said, vin says it's a 67 built in the first week of January. And the vin and data have factory rivets on the tags. On the back panel, i can't find any spots that look like they welded a new panel in or anything. looks original. The rest of the car though screams 66. Like window cranks and interior patterns. But the vin and data say 67. Weird right? Any idea if PHS could tell me some more information or would they say it's a mistake or that somebody messed with the original?


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

sounds like your best bet, at this point. Is the title a salvage title by any chance?


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

My 66 is a cloan out of Georgia. Georgia is very liberal with old car registration. My car doesn't have a cowl tag and the vin tag rivets are rusting. I think my car is the same way, field car without a title, found donor car for title and vin tag, rebody. You may be able to look on the rear frame rail for the original vin, assuming it has the original frame.
You can buy the factory rivets to make it look correct. What is the vin? It may have been a left over 66 titled in 67 and that's what made it onto the title.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The title mistake is a possibility. My '67 GTO has been titled as a 1968 model since DMV messed up in 1983. I gave up trying to set them straight. My car is in my avitar, and it isn't a '68, that's for sure. The vin and the trim say "67". It was built in Sept. 1966!!!


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

thats very possible, i know when i changed my title it said 1966 "TGO"....and it is not a 242 car, i asked the clerk if change it and she said they do not even list the model anymore just as a 1966 Pontiac.


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## Shred03 (Jan 24, 2011)

It's kind of a bummer really. Not quite sure what to do with it and wished it was a 68 convertible with hideaways. But i guess I fix it up, have fun with it, and maybe sell it later on? (maybe even for a new cyclone grey 2006 m6 ) But the question now is, would anyone buy it if it's partially 66 partially 67? I know now a days people are looking for original, and this one definitely isn't.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

YES someone would buy it, it looks to be in descent shape get it running nice, freshen it up, drive it to school and make all the kids envious of your stellar taste in automobiles, and chicks love old hotrods ....it appears to be a 66' so call it that, and since its a Lemans it won't effect value as much as if a GTO. really no different than you putting your birds engine in it. Keep researching ...order PHS, it's only 40.00 and that might help sort it out.

could look like this with a little spit and shine...would you buy this?


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Shred03 said:


> It's kind of a bummer really. Not quite sure what to do with it and wished it was a 68 convertible with hideaways. But i guess I fix it up, have fun with it, and maybe sell it later on? (maybe even for a new cyclone grey 2006 m6 ) But the question now is, would anyone buy it if it's partially 66 partially 67? I know now a days people are looking for original, and this one definitely isn't.


You do understand that some of us think the coke bottle shape of the 66/7 GTO/Lemans is our favorite body style ever?? Check out my profile, I have a really nice 70, but can't wait til I get my 66 done. Appreciate what you have, many of us have waited years to get what we had back in the day. Your glass is half full, and you will kick yourself in the ass years down the road if you sell it, then realize what you had..


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

:agree:agree:agree:agree:agree:agree:agree....I am sure we could start a thread of all the cars we "wish we'd a kept". so save yourself the regret...fix it drive it and save for your next one....maybe that 68' in the future. the only thing better than a Pontiac, is two of them....


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## Shred03 (Jan 24, 2011)

Very true. The only problem i run into is having a daily driver. And since i'm young, don't have a job that pays for two cars where i can drive one while fixing one up. I have a winter beater truck right now, when i fix the LeMans, i'll switch over the insurance and that will be my daily driver. I guess I run into the kid inside me that says get that new GTO that will last you. But in a sedimental way the LeMans means so much more since it was my first car and I've always wanted a LeMans/GTO growing up with my dads '68. Who knows, i'll probably end up keeping the LeMans and just save up later for a newer car then. Plus, the kids were so envious when I drove my dads 68 to school all of summer and fall.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

My original 66 Tempest got sold in late 84 after I went in the Air Force. I got my 66 GTO Cloan in 2010, so 26 years for me to get another one..


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

geeteeohguy said:


> The title mistake is a possibility. My '67 GTO has been titled as a 1968 model since DMV messed up in 1983. I gave up trying to set them straight. *My car is in my avitar, and it isn't a '68, that's for sure. *The vin and the trim say "67". It was built in Sept. 1966!!!


Now that's an understatement!


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## Shred03 (Jan 24, 2011)

I'm now addicted to this site. Thanks to all that helped me out. Good thing I asked before I made such a rash decision.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

actually shred, these days the Lemans and Tempest are the more rare car (as in you see very few nice ones on the road) this is due to the majority of them being cut up for parts cars for GTO builds or turned into clones. keep your beater truck running, work on the lemans and you may be able to get limited use insurance (limited mileage per year if you store the car during winter), relatively cheap in the spring as the gas for the Lemans will eat you up as a daily driver. 

You will find that most of us, like you have a reason we have a deep seeded love for these cars. My parents always owned Pontiacs, in my baby movies i would always see my mothers white 66' Lemans and my dads Blue 65' GTO. I was driven home from the hospital in the brand new GTO. when it came time for me to get my license at 16 i knew what i wanted....a GTO. I had started saving at 15 with paper route money and hen got a job doing maintenance at Micky D's on the weekends and behind the grill whenever i could. I had my eye on a black 66' that i would see on the bus route every day when it was nice out, it was a 20 footer good from far, but far from good and had been for sale for a while....his asking was 3,000.00 i believe and between what i had saved and a loan i was able to get i had around 2200.00. had went to look at it and told him i was interested and would need a few weeks to make up the difference....well by the time i had finagled to borrow the extra i went over there and he had sold it the day before. ended up getting a 69' firebird 350 gold with black vinyl top all original, mint interior, from a 68 year old lady who was original owner and had every receipt for everything ever done to the car (one of the ones i wish i had back). So flash forward 30 years and the daughters both off at college and a small windfall from some tornado damage, i run into my Tempest on Craigslist in Idaho, happen to have an uncle 15 minutes from it who checks it out and sends pics. I strike a deal with the owner and have it shipped to MI. Ironically, the cost with shipping was the same as what i would have paid for that GTO that got away, and i found the original sales receipt in the glove box slot and it was also the same amount. And a Tempest is "a violent windstorm"....and a tornado was the the reason i was able to chase my dream car....good to have you on the Forum Shred, the younger guys are the ones who will keep the Pontiac nameplate alive.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Awesome story g8ter. Reminds me of yard saling when I was 14, 1980, 66 GTO convert, burnt spot on hood, carbs started on fire, tripower for $1500.. I wanted it sooo bad, but that was alot of money, was for me being a broke ass kid, lol.. Another neighbor had a 67 Vette that was sweet for $7K. Local drug dealing kid bought a 69 Z28 Pace car, low miles, for $5k, we all thought he was stupid for paying that much for the car, although envious!!


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

i drove one of those rs/ss vert pace cars to my wifes senior prom, her neighbor had a buddy of his painting my bird and it got behind and was supposed to be done, so he let us use his pace car...there and back...lol, but it was still kick a**.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Back in 84, my buddies and I were driving 66 Tempest 455-mine, 70 442455 car, 69 442 455, 70 Challenger 383 convert, many 70ish Cutlass, 65 Cutlass, 70 Dart 318, 68 Dart 383 GTS, 76 TA, 74 TA custom, and neighbor old guy had a 73 SD455 Trans Am that he wouldn't even do burn out with--loser.. My buddy always whinned about not being born in the muscle car era, although we had all the cars for under $1000!!! Except the SD TA, he paid $4K for it!!


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## Shred03 (Jan 24, 2011)

What I always found funny was growing up and hearing kids saying how there dream cars were ferraris and lamborghini's or corvettes or even closer to highschool them saying they wanted ricers and crap. Those are all cool, don't get me wrong. But in their own kind of way.

There's two kids at my school with tricked out beemers and a kid with a tricked out 350z. You know, the kids who get things handed to them. I was the total opposite. My dream car was a 68 GTO conv. like my dads. Or any GTO from 66 to 70 or a 67 chevelle. Now, my first car being the LeMans, I couldn't be happier. 400 4 speed. rally 2s. and a hurst competition shifter that is pretty short. Gah I can't wait to drive it to school this spring and next year for my senior year. Blow their minds when i'm driving that. Could care less whether I can beat them in a race. Just beat them with style :cool


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

now your talkin Shred.....get some pics posted and let us know if you need help or information..., that Lemans pic i posted is what i am shooting for with my Tempest....Kinda retro-mod, not modifying anything i can't change back to original easily. Get it running good before spring and iron out all the mechanicals during the driving season, then plan the stuff that will lay it up for a while in the winter months if you can....arty:

No need to prove how fast you are....the track is for that if you want to see what it will do in the 1/4, just take it low and slow and let them stare..


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Shred03 said:


> There's two kids at my school with tricked out beemers and a kid with a tricked out 350z. You know, the kids who get things handed to them.
> I was the total opposite. Now, my first car being the LeMans, I couldn't be happier. 400 4 speed. rally 2s. and a hurst competition shifter that is pretty short. Gah I can't wait to drive it to school this spring and next year for my senior year. Blow their minds when i'm driving that. Could care less whether I can beat them in a race. Just beat them with style :cool


Congratulations on your choice of cars. I wish my kid had your taste and enthusiasm for old cars. He'll be 15 in a month and doesn't have any interest in helping me with my projects. He HOPES he gets to drive them when he gets a license but with the cost of insurance, that is highly doubtful. Now IF he were to become involved and learn how to build, repair and maintain them, then he might have a chance at driving them. Once in a great while he'll ask me how I know how to do all this stuff. I walk over to the tool box, get out a wrench and hand it to him. "Dig in, you'll figure it". He has NO CLUE how much he could learn about cars from me...


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## Shred03 (Jan 24, 2011)

I definitely will g8ter! that's the color i wanted mine to be? any idea of what that is? 

It's nice to know I have support and help if I need anything. Kind of hard asking people who just tell you, "well fix this, or fix that. just change that." So much more help when im asking people who have actually done it. and I totally agree with toomanyprojects. that's how I learned. ever change a starter on a 400 pontiac? totally sucks. 

Now i do like the new cars, just not for me. drove an eclipse and loved it, but only for driving it that one time. driving an old car gives you a feel like no other. steers and drives totally different. and the look is the best part. looking at an old style gauge cluster gives me chills. Getting looks from people was awesome too. looking at you like, "what's that kid driving that car for?" or "woah! look at that beauty!"


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Too Many Projects said:


> Congratulations on your choice of cars. I wish my kid had your taste and enthusiasm for old cars. He'll be 15 in a month and doesn't have any interest in helping me with my projects. He HOPES he gets to drive them when he gets a license but with the cost of insurance, that is highly doubtful. Now IF he were to become involved and learn how to build, repair and maintain them, then he might have a chance at driving them. Once in a great while he'll ask me how I know how to do all this stuff. I walk over to the tool box, get out a wrench and hand it to him. "Dig in, you'll figure it". He has NO CLUE how much he could learn about cars from me...


I feel for you, I am in the same boat, my daughter turns 18 in July. She expressed interest in building a 4x4 truck for her as a father/daughter project. When I work on her car I text her when I'm done so she can pick it up.. She's driving an 95 AWD Jeep Grand Cherokee with a injected 318, Florida truck, owned by a gulf pro, perfect condition and bitches the tires aren't big enough and that the gas mileage sucks. She is paying for gas, but it hasn't broke so I don't have to fix it.. We paid $2700 for it, did a bunch of work on it and she put it up for $3200 to sell it, got offered $3000 after 2 months ownership. I just about killed her, wth? She lives with her mom... Car is worth more than that. The truck doesn't have any undercoat or rust on the frame.. I also have $200 of front end pieces in the garage we never installed. Anyway, you can't fix stupid.. I wanted to sell it to my peeps in WI, but will sell it to however.. I'll sell it for $4500 shipped! It is really nice, had the hood repainted, so paint is really good, black. Then hopefully she is ready for a 4 cyl econobox that she can afford, her mom drives a neon.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Two daughters here 18 and 21....the youngest one has claimed dibs on the Tempest, her BF is a gear head and has been helping me with it, but he works for me and i usually put him on the clock, has a Dakota, four wheeler, dirtbikes, and a fox body mustang he beats on and is always needing gas and part money for the latest thing he's abused to the point of breaking. helped him (worked on my engine while he used the heated shop)with a 7 hr Heater core last week, broken since june. Ahhh i remember when i was young and stupid....can't drive in MI winters without defrost....lol, I've tried it. 

Mitch i bet your son would learn so much more from you than just mechanics if he pitched in, lotsa life lessons to be learned working with your hands and your brains, not to mention access to that stable of nice cars...:cheers

The original color is Barrier Blue Shred, i am going with Bahama Blue Metallic, which is nearly a perfect match with a very fine metal flake in it.


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## twinjracing (Aug 28, 2010)

Shred03 

just fix what ever it is and in joy it. I've got two 66' gto projects to work on my self on the some day list.


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## Shred03 (Jan 24, 2011)

Instg8ter said:


> The original color is Barrier Blue Shred, i am going with Bahama Blue Metallic, which is nearly a perfect match with a very fine metal flake in it.


i thought Bahama blue was lighter? like corvette blue? I just want that light blue that you posted on the first page of this thread.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

it looks lighter in direct sun....i am painting over a darker primer to kill a little of the brightness, the metalflake gives it plenty of pop. heres the color on a vert and a few more pics of the other....and thats the car you wanted to give up on....your half way there, you have a running car. now make it pretty


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## Shred03 (Jan 24, 2011)

Instg8ter said:


> ....and thats the car you wanted to give up on....your half way there, you have a running car. now make it pretty


haha well you got me. after seeing that inspiration, I'll probably never let my car go. That is just flat out gorgeous.


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## twinjracing (Aug 28, 2010)

Man i want one of mine done sooooooo bad but no time and to many other projects. Maybe once my polebarn is done it will get better i hope.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

i have had that pic as my computer background since i got my car...a daily reminder of the direction i want to go in. you can do most, if not all work yourself with patients and some tools...and you will save a ton of labor costs. arty:


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## Shred03 (Jan 24, 2011)

That's funny. I have the taillights picture as my desktop. now i have big goals for my car. It's gonna be sweet. I can not wait to drive it for the first time when it's completely done.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

i have too now.:cheers i would like to know the exact size of the tires and wheels.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

me too Shane, i have a number of photos i saved for "Stance" that one sits nice on that rubber. i have 245/15 R60's all the way around. looks like he's running 17-18"


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## Shred03 (Jan 24, 2011)

if you go to those pictures on ultimategto some of the comments have asked what size the tires are. the author or whoever posted the pictures told them what they were. If you can't find them, you can email the person. 

I personally like 275/60 r15s. I want 295/50s but i don't know if those will fit on stock rally2s. something to really fill up those wheel wells!


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Shred, the stock rally IIs are 14s, so no. The stock style 15's are 7 inch, so no also for 295s, 275s may fit, but the rim is narrow so the sidewalls would be sucked in. Some get the wheel converted to 10" wide to fit the 295s. the car in the pic may be mini tubbed, but I don't know if you can tub a convertible because the top linkage hooks to the wheelwell??


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