# Car will not start



## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

I'll try to make this complete as possible. Two weeks ago I took my car in a parade and it idled for a couple of hours. It did great and didn't overheat or act up in any way even though it was 90 plus degrees outside. When I got it home I parked it in the driveway and it sat a few hours. When I went to move it in the garage, it wouldn't start. It turned over fine just very little fire only sputtering.

I've checked and replaced several parts here's the list.

I've confirmed it's getting fresh fuel. There's no air restriction so I figured it must be ignition. It's an Acell 52102 unit with the Acell coil. The coil has 12 volts with the key to on. The coil primary and secondary resistance is within specs. I replaced the ignition module and no change. I replaced the pickup and checked the clearance between it and the reluctor and I got it to fire up and idle for a few minutes. 

The timing was way too far advanced so I figured I got it off a tooth or 2. I pulled it out to fix it and now I can't get it started again. I assumed I got it in wrong so I found TDC for #1 (stuck a pencil in and checked to make sure the piston was up). Got the #1 wire on the cap aimed to the rotor at #1.

Still nothing only sputters. I've moved the distributor around in a full range of motion and all the way advanced it is hard to crank and all the way retarded it will sputter and backfire out the tailpipe. I would think it should start somewhere in the middle! 

One thing I've noticed is that I've had my timing light hooked up while cranking and the light is very irratic. The last time I tried to crank it it didn't light up at all. I'm open to suggestions but I'm about ready to scrap this distributor and start over.


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## Matthew (Feb 11, 2011)

So do you know if you were on the compression stroke for number 1 or might you be sitting on the exhaust stroke? Matt


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Have you checked/replaced the sparkplugs? 

How old are the wires? 

I would confirm #1 cylinder TDC compression stroke and mechanically set everything on the dist. like you said you did originally and confirm condition of wires and plugs.

Also confirm 12v to the distributor.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

What these gents said. And have someone crank the engine while you hold the coil wire next to the coil tower or a plug wire next to the plug (or on an uninstalled but grounded plug) and check for spark. An engine needs compression, fuel, and spark at the right time to run.


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

I did replace the plugs and the wires are in good condition. I didn't confirm 12 volts to the distributor but I did confirm it was at the coil. I put a piece of tissue in the plug hole and when it blew out I knew it was going up on the compression stroke. Just needed a little more turn of the crank to get it up to TDC after the tissue blew out.


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

geeteeohguy I did the test you are talking about with a test light hooked to the negative on the coil and grounded at the intake. It flickered with the engine being turned over.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Vacuum leak? Check for a massive vacuum leak like the hose from the brake booster, check all lines from the carb and intake.


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

The only vacuum I have attached to the engine is the PCV from the back base plate of the carb and it's good. The power brakes are attached to an electric pump. I haven't changed anything that could cause a vacuum leak since the car ran so I'm doubtful that's the issue. I agree it's acting like that though.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

You could try and spray starting fluid around the base of the carbs and the intake gasket just to see if there are any vacuum leaks in those areas. Agree with GeeTee that sometimes we make this more complicated than it is. I guess that is why it is so frustrating lol.

You said you replaced the ignition module, did you use a "new" one or a known "good" one?

Sorry to say but I'm strictly a mechanical guy. I can troubleshoot electronics and I'm comfortable with a meter but I love the simplicity of a mechanical distributor and points. I can see with my eyes what is going on lol. Even if I can "see" it on the meter I have my doubts lol.


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

It's a new one. I don't trust these new parts either. I'm wondering if the pick up or module is bad. I will double check the vacuum conections and PCV and do the spray test also. I will also take the cap off and check that I'm getting 12 volts there too.

If I have no vacuum leaks and I'm getting power to the module and every piece of that darn ignition system is new, then what else can I check? I'm pretty certain the #1 plug wire and rotor are set to the #1 cylinder at the compression stroke. I also triple checked that the plug wires are properly connected.

If I had any left I'd be pulling my hair out.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

If in doubt on the #1 pull the valve cover and confirm that both valves are shut. Might want to pull both valve covers and make sure your rockers didn't back off. 

Good luck, keep us posted.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Maybe a heavy float and the motor is flooded? Look down the throat of the carb while and after cranking and look for any dribbling of fuel.


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

I've tried without giving any gas as well as part throttle. How much fuel does it take to foul a spark plug? Could that be my issue? It must be a secondary issue if so.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Whitt, you need to test the coil output, like I said. At the tower. It could still flicker a test light on the primary side, but the windings could be shot. _Pull the coil wire about 1/4" out of the tower and have someone crank the engine. _ You should have a strong, blue spark. You need to verify if you have an ignition or a fuel problem before you go any further.


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

Pulled the driver side valve cover. Rotated engine and watched the valves move. Looks like the intake closes then the rotor comes around to #1. The intake is the 2nd valve from the front I assume. I got it to TDC on the damper marks on the cap and rotor and its all set up to #1. Still wont fire.

Took out the #1 plug and hooked it to the wire. Good blue spark when I turn it over. Still seems like the distributor is off. Ideas?


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

Tested the coil too by the way. Strong blue spark.


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## Matthew (Feb 11, 2011)

Ignition timing good... spark at the plug good... fuel?


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

I'm still not convinced the timing is good. I've heard there's a way to check the timing with a light while the engine is being turned over but my light won't work that way. I've hooked it up to #1 and I don't get a flash while I'm cranking. However, when I pull the #1 plug and crank it I get a strong blue spark.

I'm pretty sure it's getting fuel. I checked the squirters on the carb while I actuated the throttle and they are putting a good stream of gas in.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

You can make up a test lamp to check for #1. Google it for build details. Not really needed, though, if you have both valves closed on #1 (rockers should not be under tension) and the rotor and timing marks are all lined up.


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

Here's a dumb question. Where exactly should the rotor be pointing if I know I have #1 at TDC? Should the firing tip be aligned with the #1 wire exactly or close to it?


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

It should be pointed pretty much right at it. On mine the #1 is next to the firewall on the drivers side. Also remember that Pontiac distributer rotors turn counter clockwise as opposed to clockwise like most other engines.


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## oldgoat64 (Jun 26, 2014)

Sounds like your current problem started when you pulled the distributor out.
If you make sure you re on TDC compression stroke, have the rotor lined up with #1 cylinder you can check for spark. The rotor doesn't have to be exactly on #1 but close enough where you can adjust by moving the distributor.

I didn't see where you mentioned what kind of car you have but I would get a good picture of where the distributor should be & where #1 cylinder is.
It's important to have good info so you can be doing the right thing.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Yeah... Ok, so the best thing to do now is to start from square one and re-index the distributor, re-wire the distributor cap, just to make SURE it's all correct. To start with, get #1 cylinder at TDC on the compression stroke (like you did earlier - both valves closed, timing mark at tdc - and double check with a pencil like you did before.

Pull the cap, whichever wire terminal the rotor tip is pointing to is cylinder #1. Take a moment to check the base of the distributor where it goes into the block and make SURE that it's all the way down into the hole - no "gap" between the shoulder the hold-down clamp rides on and the top of the block. If you have a gap, it probably means that the distributor shaft is not engaged with the oil pump drive - and you'll have zero oil pressure - not good. 

Ok so far? Decision time. If you like where the rotor tip is pointing, proceed with the next step. If you don't like it, then remove the clamp, pull the distributor, and change the orientation to something you like. (Use a long fat -flat-bladed screw driver and a flashlight so you can see to turn the oil pump shaft so that it'll line up with the distributor in the "new" orientation. Make double-dang sure that the distributor is all the way down.)

Again, which ever wire terminal the rotor tip points to is #1 (factory orientation is #1 pointed "more or less" at the driver, vacuum canister pointed "more or less" at the drivers side fender. Snap the cap back on, pull all the wires loose from the cap, then attach wire for #1 cylinder (drivers side front of engine) to #1 terminal. Work your way around the top of the cap, COUNTER-clockwise, in firing order sequence reconnecting all the wires 1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2 (1-3-5-7 being down the drivers side of the engine, starting at the front, 2-4-6-8 being down the passenger side of the engine, again starting at the front.)

You now have your distributor installed, indexed, and wired correctly. The ignition timing is probably going to be way off, but it should be close enough to at least allow the car to start and run.

If it still won't start and you know for certain you're getting good spark to the plugs, then it's got to be fuel related.

Bear


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

Thanks for the very detailed info. I actually did exactly what you said the other day and pulled it out, disconnected all the wires and started over. I got everything set up and went to try it again and apperantly I have burned up the starter with all my failed attempts to get it running. The shop should have it rebuilt today and I'll give it another try tomorrow.

If it won't fire up (I'm not confident at this point) I'll start exploring fuel issues. Like I said before, I can tip the throttle back and see the squirters on the Holley give a strong stream of gas.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

_Never_ crank a starter for more than ten seconds at a time between cooling off periods. A great way to burn up a starter, wiring, and melt down battery cable ends. But you know that now!!


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

Yeah I knew that before unfortunatley. Guess I got a little carried away. Not enough time between tries is what I think got to it. Should be ready today and I'll give it another try. I'm not convinced that the parts I replaced in the distributor are 100% good though. Assuming it doesn't fire right up, I'm going to verify 12 volts to the module while the engine is cranked. I feel like I've checked everything else but I swear that strong blue spark I checked at the plug isn't there all the time. An intermitent issue kind of points to a ground problem but I've checked it and it is good. Besides fuel delivery are there any other ideas?


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Did I read you were watching the timing light for spark? Don't judge spark by a timing light, it will be intermittent.


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

I did try that and it was intermittent. Why is that exactly? I would think it would either work or not all the time.

So about the fuel delivery (potential) issue - what am I looking for? I feel like it is not a lack of fuel causing the non-start issue. If it's too much fuel what are the signs?


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

If there is too much fuel the plugs will be wet, holding the throttle to the floor without pumping while cranking should clear the flooding and allow it to start.


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

Well the plugs have been wet but I attributed it to a lack of spark while I was turning it over. Actually, way back when this first happened I pulled the plugs and they looked pretty dark so I replaced them with no change in result.

When I get it back together I'll confirm a strong spark then I'll check for signs of too much fuel. I guess I'll start by unplugging the coil wire and having someone crank it while I look down the carb for dribbling. I'll try the WOT starting technique also.


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

WhittP,
Try connecting the + on the coil directly to the battery with a wire and alligator clips, you may have a loose yellow wire on the switch which supplies 12 volts only during the start cycle bypassing the resistor wire. If it cranks the only way to turn it off is by removing the wire. Use caution with this un-fused jumper wire. Additionally, this problem could also be a bad switch!


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

IF you are using an electronic ignition, CHECK for a GOOD GROUND!!!! I had an ignition issue....and went through everything.....all I had was a failed ground at the MSD box.... no spark!


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

Heres an update. It looks like I have it timed correctly now. I got it to fire up and set it to 16 initial and 36 total. I decided to perform an oil change since I've been cranking on it so much and I was worried there was gas in the oil. I finished up and cranked it and now it wont start again. 

The carb squirts fuel and there isnt an air restriction so thats not it. I removed a plug and checked for spark. Im now only getting a weak orange spark. I removed the coil wire and put the plug there and got the same result. I checked the coil resistance and it seems to be within specifications. Now what?


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Check the voltage at the coil + with the key on and also when cranking.


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

Ok what are the acceptable levels?


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

Its 12.1 volts with the key in the on position. When cranking it drops down to roughly 10.5.


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

Went out and tinkered again and got it to start. Once it starts it idles great and revs up smooth. No miss or backfire o any of that. Gonna let it cool off and try it again.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

16 degrees initial is a ton of timing. Most of these engines call for 6 to 9 degrees. What exactly are you running?


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

Its a 461 stroker with e heads and 10.4:1 compression. Holley 4150, roller cam 236/242 @ .50 with 1.65 rockers. This holley is a custom job that only has about 400 miles on it like the motor. You think this might be contributing to the hard starts? Went back out and it took 3 tries to get it going again. I backed it off to about 14 degrees initial.


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

Heres what the solution ended up at. I installed a different distributor and it solved the issues. No idea what was wrong with the previous unit since it had all new internals and im certain it was timed correctly.


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## pjw1967 (Mar 10, 2014)

WhittP said:


> Heres what the solution ended up at. I installed a different distributor and it solved the issues. No idea what was wrong with the previous unit since it had all new internals and im certain it was timed correctly.


Wow. Like my brand new made in America voltage regulator that was bad out of the box and caused the lights to flicker. Who'd a thunk it. Good catch.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Glad you got it running!

Remind me... what kind of distributor was in it that you replaced?


Bear


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

The old unit was the Acell 52102. The new one is the msd ready to run.


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