# New Chev muscle car a Holden underneath (The Sydney Morning Herald)



## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

*New Chev muscle car a Holden underneath*








*Plenty of grunt ... the Chevrolet Camaro concept car. Photo: Reuters*
By Joshua Dowling Herald Motoring Editor, in Detroit January 11, 2006​
AUSTRALIAN know-how may revive yet another American icon.

At the Detroit motor show yesterday, Chevrolet revealed a new Camaro but beneath the muscle-car body were the underpinnings for the next generation of Australia's biggest selling car, the Holden Commodore.

Like a giant jigsaw puzzle, car makers are increasingly sharing underbody components in order to save money - and get more models.

They fit different bodies so the cars look different but share parts customers can't see.

Since Holden began exporting the Monaro to the US three years ago (where it is sold as a Pontiac GTO), the Australian outpost has increasingly come to the attention of its parent company, General Motors.

Holden is one of only three GM brands around the world that makes large rear-wheel drive cars, such as the Commodore and Statesman.

Demand from American baby boomers for modern muscle cars sent American executives to Australia looking for help. The Camaro was yesterday labelled a "concept car" but the Herald understands it is close to being confirmed for production.

"We have Australian engineers working on this project right now," Denny Mooney, the American boss of Holden, told the Herald.

With his connections in the US, it is likely the Chevrolet Camaro could be built in North America on the same production line as the next generation Pontiac GTO, which is due in 2008. Given that they share major underbody components, the same US factory could also produce a version of the new Holden Statesman, to be sold as a Buick.

But Mr Mooney stressed that production of the Commodore, Statesman and other models would continue in Australia and, in addition to its local manufacturing commitments, Holden would become the main supplier of technical expertise for GM's large rear-drive cars around the world.

"Holden is responsible for General Motors' global rear-drive architecture," Mr Mooney said. "We own the expertise to assemble and develop it."

Given this new development it is possible Holden could revive the Chevrolet brand in Australia.

Holden is already planning to establish a network of Australian dealers for Cadillacs brand and is also considering the potential of a Chevrolet revival.

Since it is based on the Commodore's underpinnings, the Camaro could easily be built in right-hand drive, according to Holden sources.

The last time Chevrolet was officially sold in Australia was in the 1960s, before GM withdrew the brand to focus on Holden.

The all-new models of the Commodore and Statesman are due on sale in August and September this year.


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## BlownGTO (Dec 9, 2005)

That is so sexy, I cant wait to see the next goat.


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## RedRacer (Sep 12, 2004)

Check out more details and photos here:
http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_shows/naias_2006/0601_chevrolet_camaro_concept/


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

Think I'll stick with my GTO.


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## LYNMUP (Nov 26, 2005)

b_a_betterperson said:


> Think I'll stick with my GTO.


:agree 

Now I can see it! Watch every freakin' magazine out there glorify the new Comaro and still say nothing about the GTO. It's the GTO with a diferent body for God sakes! After looking at the pics, I still think the GTO is much nicer inside. The Comaro has that empty open feel. I like the way the interior of GTO wraps around me.


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## ShAkz05GTO (Dec 9, 2005)

I'd go for the Dodge because I wouldn't want 2 of the same basic car. You know what I mean?


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## ModBoss2 (Nov 13, 2005)

b_a_betterperson said:


> Think I'll stick with my GTO.


Me too. I did a little Holden research, just now, and it looks like they could supply us with an all-new El Camino


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## ModBoss2 (Nov 13, 2005)

ShAkz05GTO said:


> I'd go for the Dodge because I wouldn't want 2 of the same basic car. You know what I mean?


I understand. And if I wanted retro, the Challenger would be my choice over the Mustang. I wouldn't have a car that doesn't know how to keep up with its rivals unless it supercharges its motor first.


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## dealernut (Oct 22, 2005)

ModBoss2 said:


> I understand. And if I wanted retro, the Challenger would be my choice over the Mustang. I wouldn't have a car that doesn't know how to keep up with its rivals unless it supercharges its motor first.


The same can be said for the Dodge as well. The SRT - 8 is supercharged, I think.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

Good choice of underpinnings...so why does the sheetmetal have to be so frikkin' _ugly_???


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## dealernut (Oct 22, 2005)

Groucho said:


> Good choice of underpinnings...so why does the sheetmetal have to be so frikkin' _ugly_???


Good question. 

And of course the car will be offered with 999999999999999 v6 models and 3 V8's


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## ModBoss2 (Nov 13, 2005)

dealernut said:


> The same can be said for the Dodge as well. The SRT - 8 is supercharged, I think.


Are you sure? I don't see how it could be, not for only a 425hp rating. A supercharged 6.1 liter engine, good for only 25hp more than our 6.0s?


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## dealernut (Oct 22, 2005)

ModBoss2 said:


> Are you sure? I don't see how it could be, not for only a 425hp rating. A supercharged 6.1 liter engine, good for only 25hp more than our 6.0s?


You may be right. I thought I read it somewhere, but their website says nothing about it. So it is probable N/A. Sorry about that.

I am officially a dumba$$

OK its the SRT-6 I was thinking about.


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## ModBoss2 (Nov 13, 2005)

dealernut said:


> You may be right. I thought I read it somewhere, but their website says nothing about it. So it is probable N/A. Sorry about that.
> 
> I am officially a dumba$$
> 
> OK its the SRT-6 I was thinking about.



I was hoping that you were wrong  ...and that Ford was the only one that needed the forced-induction solution, due to their different approach [small, hi-tech vs ain't broke, don't fix it]:lol:


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## Justice (Oct 9, 2005)

Need a favor from you guys, espeacially you guys that have dealer info. There is another forum (a computer techie forum at that), and they are cooing over the Camaro while calling the GTO a flop. Can you guys pop in and school them properly?

http://forums.pcper.com/showthread.php?t=411911&page=1&pp=40


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

Justice said:


> Need a favor from you guys, espeacially you guys that have dealer info. There is another forum (a computer techie forum at that), and they are cooing over the Camaro while calling the GTO a flop. Can you guys pop in and school them properly?
> 
> http://forums.pcper.com/showthread.php?t=411911&page=1&pp=40



Sorry, bud. As my British friends say, I can't be arsed.

I'm tired of arguing with retards about this car. There's enough of that of at LS1GTO, fer gawdssakes.


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## Justice (Oct 9, 2005)

Groucho said:


> Sorry, bud. As my British friends say, I can't be arsed.
> 
> I'm tired of arguing with retards about this car. There's enough of that of at LS1GTO, fer gawdssakes.


No problem.. I was just trying to get people who have the actual info to back up the truth is all I was looking for. Dealernut was saying the sales numbers are high, like 140%, compared to them saying the sales of it are a flop.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

Sales of the GTO were a flop by any metric.

That doesn't make our Holdens crappy cars, though.


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## bemeyer (Apr 4, 2005)

It's about time! I've been wishing for a 1st Gen retro Camaro for years. However, Ford beat GM to the punch by about 5 years with the retro Stang  

As much as I love the early f-bodies GM will never share Ford's success since the Camaro wasn't ever quite as universally popular as the Camaro. Don't get me wrong, gearheads like us may get worked up over it but I don't feel the mass populus will.

The GTO was a great concept (and I do love mine) but aesthetically it's nothing like the original. Sure, it's a RWD high-powered car but that's where the similarities end.

If the 2009 Camaro hits the streets with the retro ques of the concept car out today I just may need to redeem my GM card savings on one  Especially if it shares the build quality of my GTO.


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## dealernut (Oct 22, 2005)

I really think its funny how so many people thing the GTO was a flop becasue there were not allot of them sold. They see the total sales #'s in the mid teens and suddenly the car is a peice of crap. 

It really amazes me how people with little tiny brains have such big mouths/opinions. 


BTW - What the hell type of forum is that? 

Justice - I would help out, but I am too lazy/busy to join. 

Also throw this statistic at them. The average GTO liespan on a lot is 64 days nationally. That means is sells faster than the mustang, viper, and corvette. But its a flop.....yeah right

Mustang - 94 days
Viper - 126 days
Corvette - 111 days

Bob Lutz said in a GM bulletin today that they are expecting *ALL* 05 Pontiacs to be completely gone by May or June. He is generally pretty close to his expectations. 


Also I guess the Solstice will be a flop as well. They will only sell 14,000 of them this year.


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## Justice (Oct 9, 2005)

It's a techie forum. Ya know, computer geeks...


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

dealernut said:


> I really think its funny how so many people thing the GTO was a flop becasue there were not allot of them sold. They see the total sales #'s in the mid teens and suddenly the car is a peice of crap.
> 
> It really amazes me how people with little tiny brains have such big mouths/opinions.
> 
> ...


Then why the steep discounts?


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## dealernut (Oct 22, 2005)

Groucho said:


> Then why the steep discounts?



*PC answer *- In an attempt to remain competitive in its market group price wise.

*Non-PC* - The ass clowns upstairs have no balls/cajones to market a car that should be advertised like hell so to attract "halo" business to a otherwise flacid department of a failinf company.

I went to the crossfire SRT-6 website and Chrysler has a video of a guy going 140 with the car on the Autobahn. WTF!!!!!! We do not even have a sample video of the car doing anything other than spinning. 

GM does sometimes manage to build a nice car and then the @#ck it up with poor marketing/advertising, thereby presenting a wrong perception of a car that would otherwise be a very hot car. 

They had to pay another company to do this for them with the ONE car that is selling out. SOLSTICE. Which BTW, has about 1/5 of the quality out GTOs have.


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## dealernut (Oct 22, 2005)

Justice said:


> It's a techie forum. Ya know, computer geeks...


So what do you talk about there? How big your hard drives are?

I wonder if they would get worked up if we told them a Alien Ware computer is a peice of ass and that my old Atari 700 had more power than their gaming systems. 


HAHAHA!!!!!


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

dealernut said:


> *PC answer *- In an attempt to remain competitive in its market group price wise.
> 
> *Non-PC* - The ass clowns upstairs have no balls/cajones to market a car that should be advertised like hell so to attract "halo" business to a otherwise flacid department of a failinf company.
> 
> ...


_NOW_ we agree!  

Thanks!


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## dealernut (Oct 22, 2005)

Groucho said:


> _NOW_ we agree!
> 
> Thanks!


HEHEHE!!!!!

I will say that some of the new cars we have been getting are a huge improvement from the previous 5 years. 

G6 - Is an extremely good car for its class. The convertible will be fun. 
Torrent - Is also a neat niche sport compact SUV for 20k
Grand Prix GXP - Is a very badly marketed car. They need to advertise this damn thing better. The whole wide track crap is beyond dead and decayed. 
Solstice - Cheap convertible. Compared to the Miata its great. hopefully the GXP will have some nuts under it.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

dealernut said:


> HEHEHE!!!!!
> 
> I will say that some of the new cars we have been getting are a huge improvement from the previous 5 years.
> 
> ...


I disagree with the GXP comment...stuffing a high-torque V8 in a FWD car is borderline retarded.

I haven't driven the Solstice, but from sitting in both the MX-5 and the Solstice I'm afraid the Mazda has an advantage...it's all the cheap plastic in the Solstice that was worrisome. To be fair, I sat in a loaded MX-5 vs a base Solstice....that may be the main difference.

Looking forwad to the GXP Solstice and the Sky...


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## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

My biggest complaint with the Solstice is trying to roll the damn windows down while sitting in the driver seat..... almost an impossible feat. I agree with the both of you.


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

The Sky and Aura, from the pre-production ones I've seen at car shows, look pretty darn good. This Camaro? Pass. The Wall Street Journal had side-by-side pictures of the old and new -- and the old one, with its dog dish hubcaps and more upright styling, simply looked way, way, way better.


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## Justice (Oct 9, 2005)

dealernut said:


> So what do you talk about there? How big your hard drives are?
> 
> I wonder if they would get worked up if we told them a Alien Ware computer is a peice of ass and that my old Atari 700 had more power than their gaming systems.
> 
> ...


They'd agree with you (sort of) on the alienware system, and laugh at you for the second. It falls under the whole mis/uninformed person status.


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## dealernut (Oct 22, 2005)

Justice said:


> They'd agree with you (sort of) on the alienware system, and laugh at you for the second. It falls under the whole mis/uninformed person status.


just like their GTO comments. HAHA!!!!

Everything is reciprocal


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## UFOGTO (Dec 18, 2005)

dealernut said:


> So what do you talk about there? How big your hard drives are?
> 
> I wonder if they would get worked up if we told them a Alien Ware computer is a peice of ass and that my old Atari 700 had more power than their gaming systems.
> 
> ...


I've been in the IT business for almost 10 years. You'd be amazed at the reactions of some people if you tell them that certain expensive brands suck or that their hardware is not even worth the trouble of taking apart.... Its like I insulted their mother or something:confused 
and god help you if you try to tell someone that something he or she has believed to be correct for years is wrong. I still love that old classic excuse when something goes wrong, the virus did it.


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## dealernut (Oct 22, 2005)

UFOGTO said:


> I've been in the IT business for almost 10 years. You'd be amazed at the reactions of some people if you tell them that certain expensive brands suck or that their hardware is not even worth the trouble of taking apart.... Its like I insulted their mother or something:confused
> and god help you if you try to tell someone that something he or she has believed to be correct for years is wrong. I still love that old classic excuse when something goes wrong, the virus did it.


So that is why my IT guy tells me that and then charges me a grand for upgrades. 


<momentarily pauses typing as he call his IT guy and cusses him out>


Thanks for the update there. My IT guy will be sending you the surgery bill for removal of my foot.


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## BlueTiger (Jan 30, 2005)

Well guys.... I like the new Camaro. I think its going to be an awesome car and I am glad to hear the name "Camaro" again.arty:


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## jortegasr (Nov 4, 2005)

I think that it looks a lot like the vette and the new cadi.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

BlueTiger said:


> Well guys.... I like the new Camero. I think its going to be an awesome car and I am glad to hear the name "Camero" again.arty:



What's a Camero?


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## stucker (Sep 22, 2004)

Groucho said:


> What's a Camero?


Its a four seat version of the Corveete. Not to be confused with the Nissan 35oz. or the Dodge Vipper though.


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## GM Kid (Mar 21, 2005)

*Like It*

I really like the look of this Camaro. It invokes the best of the Camaro's bloodline without being whole-hog retro, and looks thoroughly modern to my eye. It's not a point-for-point recreation of some past model. I mean, you can actually imagine this design having some longevity and being updatable from model year to model year. As I've said before, what's Ford going to do with the new Mustang when it's time to update it? Change it from a '69 to a '70?

I think that we in the GTO community are divided over this concept Camaro for the same reason we're divided about the nature of our own Pontiacs: Are we driving muscle cars or BMW 3-series fighters? Guess it depends on how grown up or highbrow we fancy ourselves to be. Me? I'm in my 40s, and while the ambiguous nature of the current GTO's design permits me the occasional indulgence of imagining that my car belongs among M5s and the like, the kid in me that still loves Hot Wheels cars knows I'm driving a muscle car.

For decades, GM had a two-staged approach with its sporty cars: The Corvette sat at the pinnacle of the aspirational mountain, tantalizingly close but just beyond the reach of many, while on a nearer, more affordable plateau sat the Camaro and Firebird--usually loaded up with the same engine powering the Vette, but simpler mechanically, less sophisticated, more upright and more justifiable to the conscience, the wife, the family and the insurance company.

There's the "alienation factor" to consider, too: Whereas Vette ownership can sometimes elicit jealousy and hard feelings from one's peers and fellow motorists who begrudge you your expensive ride, muscle cars routinely get a thumbs-up from everyone. After all, it's not a fat wallet that permits you to buy a muscle car--it's just the audacity to make such a bold public statement. The timid don't have it in 'em, but they kind of admire the folks who do. You tend to have more friends with a muscle car than with an out-and-out sports car.

I've owned two Corvettes. They required a serious commitment, and I had to overlook their limitations. They were great cars, and I'd for sure like to own at least one more in my lifetime, but I am exactly the target market for that Camaro--a middle-class guy with a wife, two kids, a mortgage and a desire to drive a fast, good-looking car with attitude.

Make it, GM. Soon.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

stucker said:


> Its a four seat version of the Corveete. Not to be confused with the Nissan 35oz. or the Dodge Vipper though.


Nissan 35oz.! :rofl:


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## dealernut (Oct 22, 2005)

GM Kid said:


> I really like the look of this Camaro. It invokes the best of the Camaro's bloodline without being whole-hog retro, and looks thoroughly modern to my eye. It's not a point-for-point recreation of some past model. I mean, you can actually imagine this design having some longevity and being updatable from model year to model year. As I've said before, what's Ford going to do with the new Mustang when it's time to update it? Change it from a '69 to a '70?
> 
> I think that we in the GTO community are divided over this concept Camaro for the same reason we're divided about the nature of our own Pontiacs: Are we driving muscle cars or BMW 3-series fighters? Guess it depends on how grown up or highbrow we fancy ourselves to be. Me? I'm in my 40s, and while the ambiguous nature of the current GTO's design permits me the occasional indulgence of imagining that my car belongs among M5s and the like, the kid in me that still loves Hot Wheels cars knows I'm driving a muscle car.
> 
> ...



Good point.


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## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

Groucho said:


> Nissan 35oz.! :rofl:


:lol: I didn't know they made Nissan made a 35 ounce car.....:willy: :rofl:


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## muohio (Sep 22, 2004)

I'm not sure how praise of the Camaro concept would undermine the current GTO. The new GTO/Camaro due 2008+ will not be what we are driving today. I've always felt that the current GTO, albeit a nice car, was nothing more than a filler until the real GTO is available.


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## muohio (Sep 22, 2004)

WOWHUH said:


> :agree
> 
> Now I can see it! Watch every freakin' magazine out there glorify the new Comaro and still say nothing about the GTO. It's the GTO with a diferent body for God sakes! After looking at the pics, I still think the GTO is much nicer inside. The Comaro has that empty open feel. I like the way the interior of GTO wraps around me.


It's not the GTO with a different body. It's built on the GTO replacement platform that will be shared with the new GTO. Why would they even talk about the outdated 04-06 GTO in '08 when a new platform is introduced that will also be used for a new version of the GTO.


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## LYNMUP (Nov 26, 2005)

HEY! Anything better than the current GTO would be very welcome in my garage. The wife is already wanting one of the new Camaro's. I could only hope they have the LS7 engine or better!


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## Starrbuck (Dec 13, 2005)

I like a lot of the new Camaro, but that front has to be changed. Blech.


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## LYNMUP (Nov 26, 2005)

Starrbuck said:


> ...but that front has to be changed. Blech.


:agree


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## BlueTiger (Jan 30, 2005)

Groucho said:


> What's a Camero?


Thanks for the spelling correction.:cheers


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## Starrbuck (Dec 13, 2005)

Justice said:


> Need a favor from you guys


Yea, I read that. I won't be posting. It's a waste of time talking to brick walls!


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## rcsfastmonte (Jan 9, 2006)

hi well ill stay with GTo the camaro looks ok ,i like the way the car handles and fits around you feels like it becomes you as you drive it interior is awesome in the 2005 i have one of 64 made blk with red n blc leather auto trans,18 wheels ..I have smoked mustang Gts and camaro ss with her and im going to put some mods on it soon im stock now except for the diablo and a custom CAI i made.. i have several other cars 10 second truck and a 8 second dfi procharged 540 and the GTO just is...WELL just a blast to drive..when im done with it,i will run in the 10 second zone on the motor and get 25mpg..lol so IF IT AINT GOT A HEARTBEAT ITS DEAD BURY IT!!! RC


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## 73LS4 (Apr 22, 2005)

jortegasr said:


> I think that it looks a lot like the vette and the new cadi.


I'm still not sure why anyone ever bought a Camaro. But then in 1967 I bought a new Corvette. Camaros always looked like Corvette wannabees to me, unlike the Mustang that didn't have to look like anything else... which is why I think the Mustang was always more popular than the Camaro. Not unlike today, Camaro is playing catchup to Mustang, and that's usually a losing game. Actually I always preferred Chevelles and Novas to Camaros, mostly because they were more practical and useful... and I already had an impractical Corvette  I had several Camaro company cars when I sold Chevrolets, but they were just never as fun to drive as the Chevelles and Novas. I like the current GTO, because it feels more like an "A" body to drive than an "F" body (more elbow room, sit higher in the seat, etc.)

I think the new Camaro is an interesting concept car, but I don't see it as "retro". Other than Corvette styling clues, what's there to copy or mimic in a retro version? The new Challenger is much more true to its roots, though the Challenger was just a Camaro styling ripoff in 1970 anyway. I still prefer the simple style of the new GTO.


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## pab13 (Apr 20, 2006)

Groucho said:


> Sales of the GTO were a flop by any metric.
> 
> That doesn't make our Holdens crappy cars, though.


not by any standard


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