# new, GTO still no start, electric?



## yousaygo (Apr 3, 2006)

*GTO not starting, electrical?*

Hi, 69 GTO, 455, will not start. Car has been running perfect this year. Stopped for gas, car would not start, jump would not start it. First time i have ever needed a jump. While jumping i have multimeter on battery, showing charged at 12.76 volts. Turn key and it just dies, like its dead, no clicking sound, just instantly drains battery again. Jump again, battery charges right up, turn key, same thing. Finally pushed it and popped the clutch in reverse, its a 4 speed. Drove to my garage, battery showing 7.96 volts while running, put multimeter on alternator output, putting out low 8.06 volts. Changed the alternator last night with an extra one i know is good, same issue. Not sure if this is really an alternator issue though, just a feeling. 
Notes: the negative battery lead to the block was hot at the block end. Also, Not smart that i lost the battery cover over the acid and had duct tape over it this last month (ok i am strange like that sometimes!), battery is like 4 years old. Its a Sears SUV battery, 800 CCA. 
Its strange that both alternators are bad when i kind of know they are good. 
Is there something else going on here, some electrical gremlin? Does something else cause alternators to not put out enough volts? I am probably going to just go get a new battery today anyway.
What other testing can i do to isolate the issue? While car is running, after i push it alone to start it, do i remove leads to battery?
Other notes: MSD Digital 6 ignition, MSD billet distributor (brand new), have had no issues can car has been running great, have been able to keep the electric fans on while i run in a store for a time, car always starts right up.
I truly appreciate this forum and your professionalism every time i post, my car would not even be on the road if not for all of you.
Thanks, Shane


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Sounds like a bad battery at least.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

"Notes: the negative battery lead to the block was hot at the block end."

That's a clue. It means there's a ton of current flowing through that connection. Coupled with other symptoms you mentioned it sounds like you've got a short circuit. That'll drain a battery in a hurry and also will prevent it from charging. Something to try: disconnect both battery cables at the battery, then charge the battery. Shorts can be hard to find, but if it's making the cable really hot and draining the battery really fast, I'd suspect a "big" one - probably something at the starter or solenoid. The way you describe the initial problem and what happened, my best guess would be a short in the solenoid or near it. Easy to test if you have a multimeter or test light. disconnect the battery cable at the solenoid, then see if you have a "connection" between the solenoid connector and ground. If it's not the solenoid, look for a worn spot on the positive battery cable that's getting up against metal and causing it.

Bear


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## 68GTO4004Spd (Jun 19, 2008)

I agree with Bear also check the battery cable when it goes thru that tube at the exhaust manifold, make sure it isn't cut. Check all your ground wires (chassis grounds too) and make sure there is a solid connection.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

:agree, :agree, :agree....scrap the battery (running with open acid in your engine bay....tsk, tsk)and duct tape is'nt even good for ducts what makes you think it will seal a corrosive liquid, let that spray all over your engine and/or paint and starting it will be the least of your worries. starter and heat shield area are two main areas for a short that big. unbolt and slide your heat shield tube up and check the wire insulation and that it has the inner asbestos wrap on it (very important). a member tried replacing the asbestos with header wrap and it all melted inside the tube. starter wires will become brittle over time too and its tight quarters down there, one crack in the insulation and the the wires lapped just right and it will arc.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

You have a bad battery. I recommend replacing it.


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## yousaygo (Apr 3, 2006)

Update: I replaced the battery with a 780 CCA Optima, replaced the alternator with a brand new one, 80 amps. Still the same issue here.
Clues: The alternator is still only outputting 7.96 amps, this is the third known good alt i have put on there.
The MSD Digital 6 ignition light is blinking, indicating voltage is low
This just cannot be a battery or alternator issue since they are both brand new.
I can search around for loose connections or shorts i guess.
Thought there might be a systematic approach where i could isolate the problem area somehow. IE: Check this, if ok, then check this, if not then this...
Other: The alternator has the battery lead, all good. Then it has the F going to F on the regulator and R going to 2. 
I am going to give the Bear suggestion a try now with the starter/solenoid test...The battery to starter wire is 0 gauge and heavily insulated...
Since my car is stuck out in the rain (for the first water ever), i am back out there tonight to figure this out.
Thanks for the insane awesome help GTO people.
If you got something i should check first let me know.
Thanks, Shane


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## 68GTO4004Spd (Jun 19, 2008)

Have you checked the voltage regulator on the firewall about in the center?
On a side note, where do you get the asbestos insulators, I've never seen those is the catalogs?


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## yousaygo (Apr 3, 2006)

Excellent idea about the voltage regulator. What is a test i can perform to see if this is the issue?


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## 68GTO4004Spd (Jun 19, 2008)

beats typing

How to Test a Car Voltage Regulator | eHow.com


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## yousaygo (Apr 3, 2006)

Hi, Turn the key and just grrrr then nothing. I bought a new Optima 700 cca battery, bought a new 100 amp alternator, bought a new regulator and put it in before work at 6:30 this morning, still will not start.
Battery charges with jump to 12.5 volts, but car will not start with a jump. If push the car in reverse and put it in gear it only runs enough to get me back in the driveway. Alternator is still only putting out 7.65 volts. Have checked nearly every wire in the car.
Notes: Pushing it in reverse, car started, drove it about 1/4 mile and then heard a backfire/pop and car instantly died.
What could this be? What is causing the alternator to not output? Since last post have replaced those three big items.
If it was starter, then it would run fine once it got going. Checked all wires to the starter and they all are not frayed and look well connected. 
I noticed the #4 spark plug wire was a little soaked with oil from a valve cover leak i tightened up.
Is this still a short somewhere? The timing looks right where it always it based on a mark i put on distributor.
Car has been running fine, this is kinda of sudden.
Truly appreciate your help, i just do not know what to do next. Going out there tonight, up on lift and run through everything again.
Is there some way to test if the regulator is involved? How does the alternator not output enough volts?

Awesome help so far getting Goat back going, the neighbors are looking at me after 4 days working on it like "see, see what you get having a muscle car, be like us and be normal", NEVER! lets show em with a big burn out after this thing runs again.
THANK YOU, Shane


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Did you check the ignition switch? How is the positive battery cable, going to the starter? (They get hot and build up resistance after a while) Possible bad starter/solenoid. Did you check for a short? ( Disconnect the NEG lead from the battery. Connect one end of your test light to the NEG battery post, and the other end to the NEG battery cable......if you have a draw, the light will glow..........we'll find it sooner or later.....E PS I would disconnect the battery when you aren't around, until the problem is solved.....avoid a possible electrical fire!!!!!!!:willy:


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## dimitri (Feb 13, 2009)

Very few places on your engine will short that much. The battery itself is one, and your starter and starter selenoid is another. You have already replaced the battery. That kind of heat probably took its toll on your positive and negative battery cables. I would replace both of them and buy a new selenoid and rebuild your starter or buy a reman starter. On the neg stud where the battery cable goes to the head, clean all paint and rust off stud with wire brush. Replace star washer under neg cable with new one before putting the cable back on the stud. 

I'll bet a shinny penny this will fix your problem......


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## lewy222 (Apr 17, 2011)

You have a short. If 3 alternators and 2 batterys didnt fix your problem, it likely isnt either of those. It is most likely your starter or your ignition switch. Your charging system (the entire electrical system, really) still uses the connection on the starter so dont be fooled by thinking dropping the clutch to start removes the starter as a potential cause. 

The MSD ignition need a minimum of 10 (if I remember right) volts to operate. As soon as your battery can no longer overcome the short and drops below that, it will quit. That also explains the backfire you heard.

If it came on all of a sudden, I would guess it is your starter and/or the battery cables. I've usually had warning signs that an ignition was breaking down...that's not to say they dont fail like that but I havnt had it happen to me.

Good luck!


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

:agree
You melted a wire and it is touching a ground. Probably the starter wires as the starter went out all of a sudden, mmm, melted and grounded. Other post from starter also melted/grounded. Alternator is charging, but the draw is showing like when you run the headlights, 13 to 11 volts with lights on, but bigger draw. Start with where the symptoms start. I am a service tech, I wiggle wires alot trying to find wiring issues, suprising how many times you find the problem. Do it at night and watch for sparks when you move wires..


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## Bill E (Apr 14, 2011)

Hot cables means only 2 things,loose connection on major output or dead short.
Major outputs are starter and msd ignition,also electric fans.check connections and look at wiring for shorts.Alot of electric fans need large gauge wiring to operate correctly,check amperage on fan and check wire size.It may have worked fine for a long time with the wrong size wiring but now the wiring is breaking down.


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## yousaygo (Apr 3, 2006)

Hi, After four days straight i still have the same issue. Does anyone live in Foxboro, MA area, i will pay for your help. After replacing starter, replacing and re running all starter wires, all ignition wires, battery, alternator, voltage regulator, the alternator now only puts out between 11.5 and 12.5 volts. I have done all your excellent suggestions and cannot pinpoint why the alt would still only put out low volts. I have followed every wire in the car, it runs great, all lights and everything works. I bypassed the regulator, same issue. Have checked and replaced every ground wire.
Recent clues, in the fuse box, i had my ignition getting power, with a switch inline, from the very top accessory plug, it now does not work. Also, my key will not go to off and come out of the ignition on the column, not sure if related but i am testing in this area.
Anyone live around here or know someone i can contact, its just me and have maxed out my skills.
I dont know what to even do next.
Thank you for the great help so far, will listen to any other ways to trouble shoot the electrical systems.
Thank you, Shane


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## dimitri (Feb 13, 2009)

It sounds like you are getting close. It's a lot better than before. If it were me, I would pull my battery out of the car. Top off each cell with distilled water. Put it on a slow charge until the battery charger turns itself off (stops charging). Wait for a couple of hours for it to cool down and read each cell with a hydrometer. They should all be in the green. Then take the battery to Napa or Kragen or someone who has a load tester and have it load tested. I know its a new battery but it's possible that it may be no good.


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## yousaygo (Apr 3, 2006)

I like the idea but my main issue i seem to be dealing with is the alternator only putting out 11.5 volts. I have pulled each fuse to try and locate a system, same issue. Is there an automotive help place with people like us? I can only think to post help on craigslist but it is not a trustworthy type. I am dirty greasy no shower in days, cars been towed, left in rain on side of road for two days, no time with family or kids, i am obsessed and everyone thinks i am out of control! i have to figure this out. I recently put in new carpet? Been all over under the dash. 
How do i test the wires in that connector that sits under the dash on the steering column? Is there a short in my ignition system?

Anyone live in Massachusetts? Will pay for services...
I am back out in the garage tonight, my little girl brought me dinner out there, again!
Thanks and peace, Shane


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## dimitri (Feb 13, 2009)

Check and see if there is a Pontiac or GTO club in Mass. I'll bet they will be able to hook you up with a proper mechanic.


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## yousaygo (Apr 3, 2006)

Just an update if anyone is around on this thread. Today i replaced the starter, same issue  . i am as drained as my charging system. I have done EVERYTHING everyone suggested. I even brought the new alternator back, put it on the tester, said it was bad, got another one, same issue. The alternator is those Duralast remanufactured. I wonder if i should just get a real alternator from Summit, like a 140 AMP Powermaster and finally end the question of the alt.
I pulled all the fuses, replaced the ground (batt neg to block, and block to chassis), i pulled the fuse box out and tested continuity on the ignition and power lead, all good.
I am at a total loss, four days straight of doing all i can.
Again, if anyone is in area or knows someone i will gladly pay for help.
Summary: alt only puts out 11.5 volts. Two new alts, a new battery, a new starter, a new voltage regulator, tested every wire and ground.
Thank you if anyone still around, appreciate the thoughts..
Shane


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Shane, take a break and enjoy your fathers day....it will get figured out, electrical issues can be a real test of your patients. My wife asked me what will be the difference with working on this car than when i had hotrods when i was younger, i told her when this one frustrates me i can walk away and regroup as i don't have to drive it to work in the morning. your on the right track...trouble shooting 101 eliminate what is right and eventually you will find out what is wrong, you may want to find an electrical shop that specializes in auto's, i have a guy locally that has re-buily my tuff stuff alt. and powermaster mini starter and he is very reasonable and has them done in a day usually.....Happy Fathers day spend some time with that daughter, in no time she will be in college like my two....heres my youngest in "Her" car for its maiden voyage in after 35 years of sitting in a barn.










1966 Tempest pictures by instg8ter - Photobucket

Brian


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Key doesn't go back into park.. Either the lock cylinder went bad, or the ignition switch on the column may be melted. Drop the column, remove the ignition switch and replace it, $15, you can actuate the new switch with a screwdriver before ever installing it and see if that's the problem. If it's not the switch, then there is a problem in the column with the lock cylinder. Sorry the car is giving you so many problems, you'll figure it out. You can always just hotwire the car to get it running, hot from battery to coil or HEI hot, and cross the starter with a screwdriver, bypass the key and see if it runs.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

is it a column or console shift auto? sometimes the reverse lockout switch sticks and that will keep it from firing if its not in the park position....just throwing it out there


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## tyscru (Sep 29, 2009)

The regulator governs the output voltage from the alternator. Older regulators were mechanical and notorious for getting out of adjustment and not putting out enough voltage. I don't know if the 69 is mechanical or electronic but I had two regulators on my 69 and neither appeared to put out enough voltage. When the lights were on the voltage output was barely 12 volts. I eventually bought a 100 amp self regulating alternator and bypassed the regulator. The voltage output is great now. A few years ago I also had a problem with the car sporadically not starting and one night i was trying to jump start it and noticed sparks come from the ground cable to the engine. After i corrected the loose connection i have not had any problems starting the car since.


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## yousaygo (Apr 3, 2006)

RESOLVED: Hi, just wanted to truly thank everyone who posted their help/advice on this. I always learn quite a bit from you all. Briefly, my alternator had gone bad on me, so i bought a new one, a remanufactured Duralast, cause thats all i could get quickly. Had the same issue of only putting out 11.5 volts. Went through all your troubleshooting you guys provided, looking for shorts, ignition, everything. I finally brought the alternator in for testing at AutoZone, where i bought it. It was BAD. So they gave me another one, same issue. Not thinking it could possibly be another bad alternator, continued to look for electric drains. Brought that alt back for testing, it was BAD, can you believe it? Give me two bad alternators and spend weeks looking for a short that was not there. Finally ordered a new 140 amp Tuff Stuff from Summit, install it.....everything works fine!!! Unbelievable...
Anyway, just wanted to conclude and thank everyone. I am alright with having GTO problems cause it is kind of fun fixing them and learning, especially have this awesome forum, my safety net.
Thank you EVERYONE for being a part of this and keeping my Goat on the road, where is should be.
Peace, Shane


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Shane, Don't feel alone....this is a common problem these days. You can go through 2-3 of the same rebuilt or va-chinese parts and get a bunch of bad ones........happens all the time AND makes trouble shooting difficult. Your GTO in the avatar is Sweet!.....love the stance and the color combo! eric:cheers:cheers


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

I have a local Electrical repair shop and the old timer does rebuilds on my housings (starter and alt), spins them right in front of you the next day when you pic it up and does them for under what a re-man costs, american parts and the money stays in my neighborhood. i have gotten a bent flexplate and bad oil pump recently from the chains....not stuff you can easily pop off and return. anything testable i have them check the new part before i leave the store anymore.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

I have a guy near me with a shop like that also! The old shop even smells like the good ol' days!


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

Glad you got it fixed. What you thought you were putting out on your alternator, you were actually reading the voltage of the battery. Alt probaly wasn't putting out nothing. Had the same issue when I thought I was given a 1 wire alt and it turned out to be a 3 wire.

I just happened to come across this thread as I'm searching for another resolution on a different isssue b/4 I start a new thread. Electrical, of course...


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