# What it takes to hit 500



## firebird (Feb 6, 2011)

i am on a quest to get my 06 to hit 500 hp without a supercharger, my plans are following mods, and i want to know how much HP should i be expecting from these mods.

1 OBX LT headers with high flow cats
2 Borla 2.5' catback exhaust with x-pipe
3 Cold air intake possibly, K&N, or KN drop in filter with a tube moded to air box scooping air from underneath the bumper.
4 bigger underdrive pulley
5 Diablo sports tuner
6 decent quality cams
7 Throttle body intake (which would gain more hp, 90mm or 102mm)

how much would i be expecting from each mod? i was thinking all together at around 480-505, would this be overrating these mods? other opinions welcomed.


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## ericsgixxer1000 (Aug 20, 2010)

you will probably be at 410-420. ditch the predator get a real tune. and you want a smaller underdrive pulley not bigger. dont get a knn look up svede otrcai or varam. to get to 500 your going to need a good set of heads and a big donkey **** cam. your also leaving out injectors a clutch or stall.


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## 06BLACKGTO64 (Oct 30, 2010)

:agree if you want 500 NA definitely get a real tune, you also need to look at springs, rockers, heads or at least port and polish your stockers, i would look at an oil pump too. and you have to also think if you make 500 hp do you have a suspension thats going to put that power to the pavement. 
Theres no real quick and easy way to get that kind of power NA. I would look into all the supporting mods you have to do for each.


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## firebird (Feb 6, 2011)

i would start with these mods and will look into additional supporting parts for the cam. and see where the car leads from there and what it asks for. just kind of curious of numbers that i would get from each mod. 

saving funds are now being activated, would like to do these performance mods first and then based on my needs upgrade suspension and wheels to what i will need.


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## 700Rocket (Mar 29, 2008)

Add a 150 shot of NOs


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## So.Chi.Goat (Apr 14, 2011)

11 deg valve angle heads from afr, one donkey [email protected](k cam, long tubes, intake manifold, tb, injectors, custom dyno tune, suspension to handle it, drivetrain to handle it,smaller pulley, its alot of stuff but it can be done..


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

My guess is you'll never reach 500 without adding stroke to your motor. Even then people have a tough time breaking the magical number.


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## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

I think it can be done. Part of the "secret" is matching the right parts together. Some things you have listed like the TB, catback and using the stock location air intake IMHO are either going to hold you back or be unbeneficial when you could be spending your money somewhere else. Something else not said is having a dyno that gives higher than normal "numbers" . To give it a shot I'd do.

*Kooks, Staninless Works or SLP coated long tubes (with high flow cats or catless)
*Custom grind cam with all the supporting stuff
*Decent heads with a bump in compression
*Weld in an X pipe and high flow mufflers
*Good CAI (I'm more than partial to mine ). The Vararam is good but you'll have a hard time getting it to work with a bigger MAF.
*100mm MAF or SD tune
*FAST intake manifold
*UD pulley
*A real tune

You'll also need bigger injectors, a clutch and possibly a fuel pump upgrade

If you decide to so the milled LS7 heads/intake manifold thing you can scratch the FAST


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

Its possible you could hit 500, on stock cubes N/A, but I can almost guarantee it'll be a high winder with a crap torque curve.

Case in point, a buddy of mine boasts having a 300whp LSJ Cobalt SS. While indeed true, I saw the dyno graph, and at peak HP he was down to 130ft/lb tq at around 5000.

Really I'm torn, I think if I'm going to bother, then would it make more sense to just get a 440 LS7 shortblock instead of dinkin' around with $2.5k stroker kits?


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## 87GN06GTO07IRL (Aug 10, 2009)

Poncho Dan said:


> Case in point, a buddy of mine boasts having a 300whp LSJ Cobalt SS. While indeed true, I saw the dyno graph, and at peak HP he was down to 130ft/lb tq at around 5000.


You should look at that graph again. I'm sure it said 230 not 130. Stock isn't even as low as 130 lol. I have a lsj Redline.


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

It looked really weird, it dropped sharply from like 270 after 3000. Maybe he's got some tq management going on... I haven't had a chance to see his tune.


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## 87GN06GTO07IRL (Aug 10, 2009)

That's odd. Stock the m62 s/c gives it a flat torque curve of around 200. Once they get up to 300hp the torque is 250-275 across the board. They keep pulling till redline. Give him a run. Mines quicker than my Gto. At least up to 140.

OP, sorry for getting off topic.


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## dustyminpin (Jun 19, 2006)

Poncho Dan said:


> My guess is you'll never reach 500 without adding stroke to your motor. Even then people have a tough time breaking the magical number.


:agree

Not to scare you, but I've got over $8500 in just parts that are directly related to hp/trq. That's not counting crossdrilled/slotted rotors, gauges, SAP, etc. And, that's NOT including the speed shop labor to put it all in and the 2 dyno tunes I've had to have along the way to make it all work. The parts list is too long to list here (unless Op wants me to then I will) but that is no stone unturned. Everything has been thought of (little things like injectors, fuel rails, lines, fittings, torque converter, tranny cooler, etc.) I am sitting at 481 hp / 435 trq, and that's with a CNC ported LS3 top end with a FAST 102 LSXR intake manifold and Nick Williams 102mm throttle body and SNL 100mm cai / Texas Speed 100mm maf.


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## firebird (Feb 6, 2011)

great info fellas, i appriciate all the inputs. i will take all these things in consideration for my project. the reasn i listed obx Lt, is because i have seen the kooks in person on my friends gto that he spent over 1K for, and they looked like crap, coroded after 3.5 yrs. so i figured i could buy 2 sets of obx LTs with high flow cats for the price, and wrap them.

i no longer go after the brand name as long as the competition offers the same or similar benefits, and the quality now days is top noch in many things. for example, i spent over 6K in my bike with boltons for performance, all top noch brand name, and only running few hp more than my buddy who used all the cheapest parts...lesson learned big time.


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## dustyminpin (Jun 19, 2006)

Wow, that's the first negative thing I've ever heard anybody say about Kooks (other then price of course, lol). If you think those looked bad, take a look at a set of mild steel Pacesetters after a couple years and let me know what ya think...


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## jpalamar (Jul 22, 2008)

87GN06GTO07IRL said:


> You should look at that graph again. I'm sure it said 230 not 130. Stock isn't even as low as 130 lol. I have a lsj Redline.


I agree.

My buddy has a C5Z that depending on the dyno can be 500HP but more likely 480ish. He has a HUGE cam that is ****ty to drive on the street, top of the line heads that are matched for his cam, Veraram, Kooks LT w/ cats, exhaust, FAST, UDP, Monster clutch, and tuned. Also has full suspension done as well with 315 Nitto 555r tires in the rear for traction.



firebird said:


> great info fellas, i appriciate all the inputs. i will take all these things in consideration for my project. the reasn i listed obx Lt, is because i have seen the kooks in person on my friends gto that he spent over 1K for, and they looked like crap, coroded after 3.5 yrs. so i figured i could buy 2 sets of obx LTs with high flow cats for the price, and wrap them.
> 
> i no longer go after the brand name as long as the competition offers the same or similar benefits, and the quality now days is top noch in many things. for example, i spent over 6K in my bike with boltons for performance, all top noch brand name, and only running few hp more than my buddy who used all the cheapest parts...lesson learned big time.


The Kooks are proven to dyno higher and with your goal your going to need those extra HP. FYI, his Kooks probally just has some surface rust and could be cleaned off by hand to look new. It is worth paying the extra to get the Hot Jet coated for any header.

The cheaper ones do offer bang for the buch, but the welds and bends are not nearly as nice and not much R&D is typically done. Check with Maryland Speed, they have charts of all the different headers they have to prove the HP differences.


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## firebird (Feb 6, 2011)

i was suprised to see kooks look like that after i read so many top noch reviews on this forum and saw the prices, i think i overrated them myself. but if i must replace them after few years, then i might as well go cheaper. to me the welds on the outside mean not much but it is inside what counts...kooks might be a beter choice, but the extra money might be worth investing in other rhings such as TB and CA intake.


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

87GN06GTO07IRL said:


> That's odd. Stock the m62 s/c gives it a flat torque curve of around 200. Once they get up to 300hp the torque is 250-275 across the board. They keep pulling till redline. Give him a run. Mines quicker than my Gto. At least up to 140.
> 
> OP, sorry for getting off topic.





jpalamar said:


> I agree.


Here's a more recent one, if you don't believe me.


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## 87GN06GTO07IRL (Aug 10, 2009)

Poncho Dan said:


> Here's a more recent one, if you don't believe me.


Wow! Either that car has some problems or he needs a new tuner. Torque and hp cross around 5k on those motors. His torque curve is worse than stock! He'll love his car so much more when torque stays at 250 across the chart.


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## 87GN06GTO07IRL (Aug 10, 2009)

Hey, i looked at it again, your looking at the afr ratio, not torque curve lol. Go race him, you'll be surprised.


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

He must be playing me, because I asked him "what happened to your torque?" and he's like "Iunno, it's fast as sh*t tho". :lol:

I did just see afr way up in the corner, totally makes sense now.


But anyways, I highly doubt anyone's gonna see 500 much less even 10 past that peak whp N/A, with possibly exception of upgrading to an ITB intake. It's just not possible with the stock displacement.


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## SPDMETL (Apr 30, 2011)

Cubic Inches=EVERYTHING !!!


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## firebird (Feb 6, 2011)

have a question in reference to 102 mm and vs 80 mm TB. what's the diference and which gains more HP and depends on what other upgrades? i have seen both on different gtos and was wondering why people picked one over other.


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## dustyminpin (Jun 19, 2006)

The LS2 has a 90mm throttle body, not sure on the LS1, I know it's smaller though. The FAST 102 LSXR LS3 (that's a mouthfull) intake manifold that I am using has a 102mm opening on the front, thus the name. It was designed so that a stock GM throttle body could bolt up to it but would be essentially necking it down to a 90mm diameter. You can port the dog snot out of a 90mm throttle body and get nowhere near 102mm. A Nick Williams 102mm DBW throttle body will not work on a stock intake manifold. 

For the manifold and the throttle body, you're looking at around $1600, then add another $420 for SNL's 100mm cai which already includes Texas-Speed's 100mm maf (which sells for $220 by itself, I found out the hard way). So all parts added up, a little over 2 grand. I gained 26 rwhp after a major retune on my speedshop's in-house dynojet. That bump was from the throttle body and cai alone, the FAST 102, cam, heads, injectors, etc. were already on there.


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## 87GN06GTO07IRL (Aug 10, 2009)

firebird said:


> have a question in reference to 102 mm and vs 80 mm TB. what's the diference and which gains more HP and depends on what other upgrades? i have seen both on different gtos and was wondering why people picked one over other.


A 102mm intake, maf, t/b, and intake manifold are not needed unless you have heads or highly ported stock heads, and a large cam. Good mods though once that becomes your restriction.


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## dustyminpin (Jun 19, 2006)

87GN06GTO07IRL said:


> A 102mm intake, maf, t/b, and intake manifold are not needed unless you have heads or highly ported stock heads, and a large cam. Good mods though once that becomes your restriction.


:agree

I just went that route because I already had the FAST 102 on there. I plan on swapping out the short block in the future (decided against a 402 stroker kit, leaning towards a forged Texas-Speed LS3 427 stroker short block) and wanted a top end that could handle just about any build I throw at it. All I should need to change out is the cam and the fuel injectors. I wanted to go big or go home and just buy once, figured a little overkill at the beginning of the build was ok.

Hell, my tuner even said I pretty much wasted my money on the throttle body and cai/maf. Said stuff like that was for "big motors making big power". He about sh!t himself when it gained 26 rwhp. I know that isn't much hp for dropping $1450 (re-dyno tune included in that price with parts) but I'm looking more at the big picture. I had a little extra $$$ to blow and if I didn't spend it on the parts then, I probably would've blown it on something non-GTO related, which is unacceptable.


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## 87GN06GTO07IRL (Aug 10, 2009)

dustyminpin said:


> I just went that route because I already had the FAST 102 on there.


For what you have, and plan on doing, you made an excellent choice.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

firebird said:


> i am on a quest to get my 06 to hit 500 hp without a supercharger...


Ditch the LS and swap in a real Pontiac 461 stroker 

Bear


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## jpalamar (Jul 22, 2008)

Poncho Dan said:


> He must be playing me, because I asked him "what happened to your torque?" and he's like "Iunno, it's fast as sh*t tho". :lol:
> 
> I did just see afr way up in the corner, totally makes sense now.
> 
> ...


ITBs would be very nice.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

Anything is possable. I'm not going to say its not impossable because I never built one before. The question is how is it going to run? How long will it last? drivability? IF you're talking about wheel HP then the engine will have to make around 550-575bhp. Smaller engines have been built with over 600bhp in a race application, those engines usally get rebuilt every thousand miles or so. 500bhp for a LS2 is a walk in the park, you can manage that with bolt ons. Shooting for peak numbers usally requires a car to run like crap because of the huge cam with little vaccume to keep it running. Low end is not in sight, large heads, headers to get it there because velocity and cylinder filling is crap. Thats why larger displacement motors are the key to making huge amounts of power becuase they can purrrr all day without sacraficing all the above. Its a difficult road to get a N/A engine to reach 100hp/liter


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

BearGFR said:


> Ditch the LS and swap in a real Pontiac 461 stroker
> 
> Bear


That would be nice if he could get it to fit. A custom LSX could get you a 461 and he could get 500whp all day, with a restricter plate


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## firebird (Feb 6, 2011)

lsx would be nice, but it would cost an arm and a leg, which i am not willing to give yet.
so basically i am looking at 4-5 grand for these mods. i wonder what would be the best option all at the same time or one thing at the time and see it grow.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

LSX would be for the guy that want big numbers on the track or just the dyno queen.

You can buy parts all at once or if you like me buy parts here and there and wait for the deals to pop up.


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## dustyminpin (Jun 19, 2006)

arty::lol:


firebird said:


> lsx would be nice, but it would cost an arm and a leg, which i am not willing to give yet.
> so basically i am looking at 4-5 grand for these mods. i wonder what would be the best option all at the same time or one thing at the time and see it grow.


If you only want to spend 4 or 5 grand and want 500+ rwhp, shop ebay or google shop for a used supercharger. You'll have money leftover for the install and dynotune. 

Or, you could save up another 2 grand or so, buy a new supercharger, and do the install yourself, if you're so able. Alot of the new supercharger kits have a deal where you send in your ecu to the manufacturer and they reprogram it for you. Of course, your goat's down while all this is going on, which I can't do, as it's my daily driver. 

I guess you could get a STS or Turbonetics turbo kit as well. I know a guy who has a STS on his 4th gen F-body, wicked as hell, but I'd never do it...


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

People talk so highly of the LSX block, and while it's great, is it really worth the 80lb penalty for switching to a cast iron block? I could see benefit if you're trying to run 20PSI through it, but, 99% of us wont.


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## firebird (Feb 6, 2011)

i do not know much about turbos, i was thinking of them as i wanted to have more power uptop. the gtos do not need more power down low as they have a lot of touruqe, and as is now, it is hard to lunch hard and keep the wheels from spinning. i would prefer the turbo, but they take so much more maintainance and you have to keep them cool otherwise they break easily damaging the engine possible.

a supercharger is in my thought but then again i do not want to struggle through 3rd by babysitting the gas pedal just to get grip. that's why i want to go boltons and addons first.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

Poncho Dan said:


> People talk so highly of the LSX block, and while it's great, is it really worth the 80lb penalty for switching to a cast iron block? I could see benefit if you're trying to run 20PSI through it, but, 99% of us wont.


Its no different than bolting on a S/C that adds a 100lbs for a roots and whatever much for a procharger or turbos. I think the LSX weighs more than the standard cast iron block. Besides you can only bore and stroke a OEM cast iron block so far. If you want to sleeve a Al block you may as well go cast iron with the price involved. Like I said the LSX is for the folks that want to make BIG numbers down the track or dyno, not for the faint at heart. People use those blocks have money and they are N/A, NO2, and boosted, that extra weight means a more durable block.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

firebird said:


> i do not know much about turbos, i was thinking of them as i wanted to have more power uptop. the gtos do not need more power down low as they have a lot of touruqe, and as is now, it is hard to lunch hard and keep the wheels from spinning. i would prefer the turbo, but they take so much more maintainance and you have to keep them cool otherwise they break easily damaging the engine possible.
> 
> a supercharger is in my thought but then again i do not want to struggle through 3rd by babysitting the gas pedal just to get grip. that's why i want to go boltons and addons first.


Depends on how its driven. Gears can help you get out of the hole, a properly sized(custom) cam can get you out of the hole and still give you decent top end. It all depends on how the car is built.


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## firebird (Feb 6, 2011)

that is all true, but then that means going way above the planned budget. a lot of money. i will see what i can do for 5K tops.


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