# Sticky  Central Virginia Machine Service (CVMS) Negative Review



## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

WARNING! Do not send your engine to this hack!


Well after almost a year of waiting to get this engine back from Jim L. @ CVMS including tearing it back down to a long block to fix things like rusted tins, cracked hub, leaking timing cover etc. I again had noise coming from the rockers and since this was the third time I needed to go back in to adjust I decided to pull one of the Magnum roller rockers to see WTF was going on.
Evidently Jim just pulled whatever push rods out of his junk pile, the rod on the bottom in the pic is the proper rod, the other 15 were destroyed by the lift on the cam and just hammered into fragments.
At least one out of the 16 was right.



I ordered a new set from Comp cams, they arrived and I installed them yesterday and used a magnet to get all the fragments I could and changed the oil and filter.
Of course the damage has been done, I now have 2 pounds of oil pressure at idle and 20 pounds at 3,000 RPM.
500 miles on the engine and it is junk, thanks Jim thousands of dollars pissed down a rathole over 30 dollars worth of pushrods.
I wouldn't send a lawnmower engine to CVMS and at this point I don't know what I am going to do with this car since there are no more reputable Pontiac builders and I don't have another 7K to throw away.
If anyone wants this car click on my pics and make me an offer, I have over 60K into it and am done putting money into it.


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## Doug68gto (Mar 8, 2016)

Hope you cool off and do the right thing which is to take him to court so he does not screw any others. Not sure of state but most have a small claim court process that you could handle your self with pictures and a good write up from a willing engine builder. May not have the limits but might get close and maybe he will settle long before, best luck Doug


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## Doug68gto (Mar 8, 2016)

If this is them have you tried this???CVMS warrants all products against defects in workmanship. New parts purchased through CVMS are warranted by the manufacturer, and CVMS will act as an agent for the customer in the event of a warranty claim. Parts not purchased through CVMS are the responsibility of the provider.
Complete engines machined and assembled by CVMS, and parts supplied by CVMS, intended for normal highway use, are warranted for a period of one (1) year from date of delivery (or pickup) or 12,000 miles, which ever occurs first. That warranty is limited to engine assembly and parts attached by CVMS, and does not include incidental damage.
Labor charges for work performed under this warranty are limited to the fair and traditional charges for the operations performed. CVMS must authorize any warranty related work prior to accepting the charges.
CVMS does not pay labor claims to private party installations.
Any issues arrising from neglect or abuse, including but not limited to, racing or other performance contest, overheating, oil starvation, application of nitrous oxide, etc. are not covered under warranty.
Issues arrising from installation are the responsibility of the installer.
There are no warranties, implied or expressed, for any racing or other competition application engines, either to performance or longevity.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Yeah read that bogus warranty, the guy is done and sold the biz.
The guy is 2,400 miles away and I am not going to waste time and money on a small claims court action that will net me an uncollectable judgment.
The rods I sent with the engine were all the welded ball type like the one at the bottom in the pic and were checked before I sent them.
I don't have a clue what happened to my parts or why the wrong rods were installed all I know is I got royally screwed by Jim L. @ CVMS.
I have zero recourse as far as getting anything back all I can do is post this info so the next poor SOB may find this review and not send his engine to this hack.
Pisses me off, I did my due diligence and research because I didn't want to be the chump that spent thousands and got 500 miles out of the engine yet here I am, shoddy workmanship and I am also out the 15 hundred in shipping both ways just to have this ******* lose bolts and FUBAR my engine.


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## zrsteve (Aug 28, 2014)

CVMS did the rebuild on my 389 tri-power. I was in the process of installing the motor when I was pulled away on 04/29/16 for family issues. I'll be home by 05/29/16 and plan to get re-started asap. I hope I will not have the same issues GR is having, I'll keep the board posted.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

I'd be tempted to install the right push rods, pull the engine and pull the pan. Replace the oil pump and main and rod bearings if an inspection of them showed wear. If they are wore you'll more then likely get your pressure back.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Sorry, man, this sucks horribly:surprise: I can surely understand your being PO'd big time. If you don't sell her, perhaps Rukee's thoughts have some merit.

I for one appreciate you posting this BS from CVMS....I had entertained thoughts about him re-doing my tired engine. NOT NOW. I had a very thoughtful meticulous Ford racing machinist do a Chev 350 for my Studebaker and he did it beautifully. Although I sold it two years ago, I hear from friends in NC that the 350 is still smoking newer Camaros and Mustangs. My point is that I think I'll talk to him about learning Pontiac idiosyncrasies and do the work here where I can stop in every day. An intelligent conscientious machinist can learn to do Pontiacs, just as they learn IH engines, etc. I'm thinking it is crap that only 1/2 dozen guys in the whole USA can do a Pontiac engine. Sticking with local people who are trustworthy makes more sense to me.

Am really sorry you got the shaft from someone who reputedly was a really good shop. Hopefully some lemonade can be made from this lemon experience.
We are all rooting for you:smile3:


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

This SUCKS. But, I would cool off and do exactly as Rukee suggested. If your crank is scored, that's something else. But if it's just the bearings, it's a cheap and easy fix...Backing away from this thing, and looking at it with an overview, you have an otherwise cherry and gorgeous '67 GTO in a great color combination. Even with a $500 junkyard engine, the car would be pretty special. Take a break, and get back to us. I feel VERY poorly about being one of the guys that recommended CVMS in the first place. There are some excellent shops in southern Ca, and they are listed on the AMES website. Paul Carter is one of the guys, and he's in AZ, but I would consider talking to him....I'd bet he'd help.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

It isn't your fault GTOG I just happened to be the guy in the queue when Jim's eye went south.
When I got it back with the cracked hub, missing parts and rusted out tins I should have torn it down further than I did and I would have found those bogus rods.
I am just flat out of cash and haven't even told the wife the engine is junk, I just want the car to quietly go away at this point.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I hate that you have all these problems, man, one after another. Never seen anything like it. Good thing that isn't my motor because I would be making a personal road trip with engine in tow. Guarantee problem would be solved. 

I gotta ask this out of curiosity. What kind of lift does your cam have? What is the rocker ratio of your Magnum roller rockers?


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

PJ the guy is done, he may have done some of the machining on this engine but whoever assembled it didn't have a clue.

Lift is. 462 on intake .470 on exhaust 1.5 ratio on the rockers.
You can see when it is at the top of the lobe with a mirror the seat in the lifter was cold rolling the metal on the pushrods.
The only one that wasn't screwed up was the one with the welded ball.
It needed the radius, those were the wrong rods and they took out the bearings.
Oil pressure when cold is 60 and goes to 80 if I rev it, 40 at idle.
It goes down to like 2 or 3 when warm at idle and the idiot light starts to flicker. 
Do you think the cam bearings are toast or just the rods and mains?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Goat Roper said:


> PJ the guy is done, he may have done some of the machining on this engine but whoever assembled it didn't have a clue.
> 
> Lift is. 462 on intake .470 on exhaust 1.5 ratio on the rockers.
> You can see when it is at the top of the lobe with a mirror the seat in the lifter was cold rolling the metal on the pushrods.
> ...


OK, nothing too exotic or radical on the cam & stock 1.5 ratio rocker arms.

I can't honestly say if the cam bearings would pose a problem or not. I would think that your filter would have picked up most of the debris. It could be possible that your oil pump screen may have gotten somewhat clogged up and that is the culprit. My experience of the past in losing my oil pressure was the oil pick-up screen was so fine a mesh that the heavy weight oil collapsed it and allowed the unscreened oil to be drawn through the relief hole (which it is supposed to do when clogged) and sucked up a small chunk of rubber that got lodged in the pressure relief ball found in the oil pump. With the pressure relief ball stuck open, the engine does not build oil pressure. It is possible you may have experienced the same thing and have a trapped piece of metal in the pump holding the relief ball stuck open. 

If you had the valve covers off, did you happen to see/notice if you had oil coming from the pushrods/rocker arms with the engine running? With such low oil pressure, there really should be very little. If you had a good flow, then I might also suspect the gauge/oil pressure line may be clogged and giving a false reading - just sayin'. 

I can only imagine how disgusted you are at this point, but it may be the wisest to pull the engine and inspect it. At this point, I might almost bring it to a local machine shop and have them disassemble the bottom end to take a look and mike up the crank & bearings just to make sure there wasn't any other shoddy work that will bite you. I think we ALL share your frustration at this point.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

I had good pressure on #6 intake, the rest not so much.
The two head bolts with the studs for the drippers were not on the engine just regular bolts and the drippers came in a box inside the crate with the engine and I don't have a set of clips so I has no way of really running it, when #6 started squirting I shut it down.
Jim has done enough engines to know about those bolts, that is another clue he didn't assemble it.
I spent all the funds I had, the engine already cost me twice buying gaskets and parts that were supposed to come on this "turnkey" engine so I should be finished not pulling the engine and starting over.
I had a bad feeling after having to tear it down to a longblock that it was going to just grenade, everything was done half assed I just didn't tear it down far enough.


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## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Im sorry to hear about this first off. I can only imagine your frustration. I too was under the impression they did reasonable work. Wrong pushrod length? Thats busch league. A comp pushrod length checker costs $15 and takes 15 minutes to determine the right length with a sharpie and spinning the crank. Both my 400 and 455 I assembled myself that way if it locked up or rattled apart there is only one guy to blame. Me. I am in the process of selling my current aluminum headed 455 to move to a Chevrolet crate zz502. The only people it seems worth while to trust assembling an engine these days are yourself or a monster engine builder with a REAL warranty like GM.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Bensjammin66 said:


> Im sorry to hear about this first off. I can only imagine your frustration. I too was under the impression they did reasonable work. Wrong pushrod length? Thats busch league. A comp pushrod length checker costs $15 and takes 15 minutes to determine the right length with a sharpie and spinning the crank. Both my 400 and 455 I assembled myself that way if it locked up or rattled apart there is only one guy to blame. Me. I am in the process of selling my current aluminum headed 455 to move to a Chevrolet crate zz502. The only people it seems worth while to trust assembling an engine these days are yourself or a monster engine builder with a REAL warranty like GM.


All I can find is Butler for a small fortune and there is a shop in No Cal that will do an LS conversion also for a small fortune.
There is a local car show this Sunday and I am going to gimp it there and see if I can sell it, if not maybe Craigslist.
Time to throw in the towel and get what I can get for it and move on.
It sucks but it is what it is, no way I am rolling the dice and getting screwed again by another Pontiac prima donna.
Hindsight being 20/20 I should have bought a Hellcat.


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## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Just remember its not the cars fault, your fault or anyones fault but the shops. I can shine a lot of light on the LS conversion as I a completing one in my father in laws 66 tempest as we speak. It was actually pretty painless if you have a question ask away. I vote cut the losses on that motor and install a GM built crate long block chevrolet engine or LS and keep the Goat! All the purists will say other wise but to hell with 50 year old technology. Nothing wrong with wanting an EFI turn key 20mpg ultra reliable drive train with over drive. Makes these old cars fun to drive if you ask me. With my car I just wanted the 1966 looks but everything else I shoot for modern technology. My 455 is for sale im all done with carbs and mechanical ignition timing. There is a reason why it is non existant in the modern world of new automobiles.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

The next guy can decide what he wants to do with it, I am done putting time and money into this car and I just need to take my loss and move on.
I should be enjoying this car now not looking at another year and thousands more.
B.B King said it best, the thrill is gone.


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## Doug68gto (Mar 8, 2016)

Send me some pictures the more the better and what you need to get out of it. Might have someone that could do the deal fast for you. Be fair to yourself and price to sell if that's what you want . [email protected]


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Doug68gto said:


> Send me some pictures the more the better and what you need to get out of it. Might have someone that could do the deal fast for you. Be fair to yourself and price to sell if that's what you want . [email protected]


I paid 44K for it and put another 20+ into it.
Power disc brakes, rebuilt suspension, Gardner factory repro exhaust system.
Here is the link to the ad when I bought it.

1967 Pontiac GTO, Calif Since New, ?Black Plate?, Matching Numbers, Beautifully Restored, 1st Owner 41 Yrs!

It wasn't fully restored, the mechanical end of it was shot but now it has been all gone through.
It looks as good as it did the day it rolled out of the factory except of course for the junk CVMS original engine.

I would like to get 40K for it.


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

Man, I wish you were closer. My machinist is not a Pontiac guy per se, but regardless of what others say, a GOOD machine shop can do a nice build on that motor for not a lot of money. The shop I use has done Chevys for me, two Pontiacs, a 340 Mopar, and some Fords for some friends. Not an issue with any of them that I'm aware of. I'm 500 miles North of you but if you're interested, let me know.


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## Doug68gto (Mar 8, 2016)

Agree a few basic and a knowledgable owner that works with builder make a great team. My guy does Pontiac but let's face it not that many out there compared to ford/Chevy and mopars. He does one Pontiac for every 15 othe makes . If he a quality builder there if no way you don't gets a good motor. He has built me two motors and I've seen soom ram air four and strokers come out of his shop I can only dream of owning. Best luck . I think the most important thing is Pontiac folk can do is educate yourself (rocky and Jim hands have tons of great informationin thete books read it a couple of times) and do not work with someone who won't listen/ and work with your concerns ... Doug


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

There are PLENTY of highly qualified shops that can properly build a Pontiac V8 engine in the US and Canada. Unless one is building the most exotic, high end aftermarket block foundation, $7000+ race headed race engine, there is NO rational reason to waste hard earned money shipping across the entire country a complete street engine (numbers matching or not) to one of these Boutique engine builders. The shipping charges alone are ridiculous. shipping a pair of heads or an intake to have professionally CNC ported, that's another thing. Needing to pickup 10 cfm at lower valve lifts in a stock set of heads, through a killer valve job...no porting, NHRA stocker type build, you darn bet you, properly ship the heads out, heavily insured to the best cyl head man avail. For that type of work, it won't be Pbody or the Butlers either. 

Again, I'm sorry for your bad experience, but buying into Pbody's pied piper BS on bulletin board after bulletin board, sorry, his way wasn't and isn't the only way. Several of the long time engine builders Ive dealt with were building low 10sec Dport Pontiac engines 20 years before Pbody decided to move across the country and hang out his shingle in VA. Of course from disagreements ive read on the Net, all that experience of building mild to wild Pontiacs engines didnt mean sh!t if one isnt running XE grind cams in a street engine, or plunking down 12-14k on the Chinese junk crank, aftermarket headed flavor of the month engines build from the "master" himself. Best to you in fixing the short block, it isn't rocket science. Back late tonight, am waaaay from home and am hitting country yards all day.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Eric, post some pics of your car.....and maybe put an ad here and on the AMES site. 40k is all the money for a mint car needing an engine, but you never know. I've never had an engine assembled for myself, not knowing any better. Always did my own assembly after checking the machinist's work. This sucks, but your car is so clean and is a great color combo, so it is still very desirable.


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

geeteeohguy said:


> I've never had an engine assembled for myself, not knowing any better. Always did my own assembly after checking the machinist's work.


That's where I am too. I realize not everyone wants to (or can) do that, but I believe this is what could be Eric's saving grace, should he decide to keep the car and spend just a wee bit more. Probably the only way to salvage the project and amortize the expense out over time. Long term, I believe it would be worth it.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Eric, sooo sorry to hear of your bad experience with CVMS, I've seen numerous people refer to them as a Pontiac specialist. Imo, a good engine rebuilder/machinist can build any engine to high quality as he should have quality equipment and some business integrity as well as the skills and know how.

I've been down the same road as well and paid for shoddy workmanship and had parts downright stolen by shops. My only recourse was to do it all myself and that's not an easy road either. My 65 Satellite was a five year odyssey that ended with a fire, destroying the car completely, after multiple engine and transmissions and thousands of dollars and my hours LOST. But I came back, bigger and better and built the next one myself. Automotive therapy.....

I hope this doesn't sour you on the hobby, you still have a beautiful GTO and honestly, just stick a motor in the thing and drive it. You can paint a garden variety craigslist 400 up and enjoy the car. Or sell it and buy a Vette.......


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## zrsteve (Aug 28, 2014)

WTH!!!!!! Got a new rebuilt CVMS motor hanging on the engine stand and now I'm scared about putting it in the car.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

zrsteve said:


> WTH!!!!!! Got a new rebuilt CVMS motor hanging on the engine stand and now I'm scared about putting it in the car.


I would at least look at the rockers to make sure his apprentice put in the correct pushrods.

I sent an email to Jim so we will see what he does to make this right.
So far I am out the cost of shipping, the rebuild, the parts that didn't come on the engine that should have and the shop time to R&R the engine.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

No word from Jim so I guess I am just hosed on this deal.
Word is that Jim sold the biz and I am guessing the apprentice that he is training cobbled my engine together since there is no way an experienced engine builder put this engine together.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Wasn't he a member on here at one point?

Hard to believe someone would think they could run a business anywhere in this country and not know what the internet can do for/to their business. If you do shoddy work the word will get out there and these days people do research. If you don't think people won't see this thread and run away from a shop that turns out shoddy workmanship you've got a rude awakening when the phone stops ringing.

Eric, if nothing else you have the satisfaction that every time someone searches out CVMS they will see this thread. I say Jim, or another representative should be able to give you an answer either in person so you can share the results here or to come on here and apologize to preserve their reputation and offer to make things right.


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## GTOJUNIOR (Aug 7, 2011)

*WOW Jim strikes again. 
IMHO Jim's glory days are far far away.
He has been hit or miss for over a decade.
We ran into issues with delay after delay after delay only to finally get an engine that was hastily assembled and were charged for parts WE supplied and/or not used. We at least opened it up before firing and found many issues with parts, clearances and contamination.
We wrote it off as ol Jim is just getting senile. We cut our losses and moved on to bigger and better.

Sorry Jim your a nice guy but facts are facts.
Cheers *


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

ALKYGTO said:


> Wasn't he a member on here at one point?
> 
> Hard to believe someone would think they could run a business anywhere in this country and not know what the internet can do for/to their business. If you do shoddy work the word will get out there and these days people do research. If you don't think people won't see this thread and run away from a shop that turns out shoddy workmanship you've got a rude awakening when the phone stops ringing.
> 
> Eric, if nothing else you have the satisfaction that every time someone searches out CVMS they will see this thread. I say Jim, or another representative should be able to give you an answer either in person so you can share the results here or to come on here and apologize to preserve their reputation and offer to make things right.


He doesn't care Alky, he has the money and the chump he sold the biz to is stuck with the bad rap.
This is all I can do since I am out thousands of dollars is to let others know my experience with #CVMS .

Goat Roper Posted - 27 May 2016 : 11:37:50 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Admin

Recently, one of our modern cars was at the shop for electronic diagnosis and several modules were replaced. When the car was picked up, it fired right up and everything looked and acted fine. Within a 1/4 mile, my check engine light came on....after a few expletives, I drove the car back to the shop. I walked into the manager and told him what happened. He brought his computer and plugged it in and did a check and the bug was fixed. When there's a problem, one should always go back to the shop or person that did the work. This type of thing happens to all of us...and most often the problem is corrected usually at no cost to the customer. The longer one waits after and issue is discovered, the more intervening factors come into play, and that may dissuade the shop or subcontractor from doing anything. Never lallygag on stuff like this. 



If I was within 1/4 mile I would have been there but I am 2,300 miles away and the guy won't answer my emails or phone calls.
This isn't plugging in a computer and replacing a sensor, this is pulling a motor and rebuilding it because of faulty workmanship.
Jim...are you out there?
Notice he has gone silent on both groups, he knows what he sent me.
I have no idea how my tins got so rusted or why I got the original cracked hub instead of the new one and balancer.
Of course no bolts, just the old balancer in a box. I got a new fuel pump in a box but again no bolts.
The head bolts were installed in the wrong locations so since there was no studs to mount the drippers on they came in a box but at least I got them and didn't have to buy another set from Frank.
No flex plate, shim plate or bolt plate and of course another order from Ames to replace the bolts and another order to Frank's for the bolts and plates then another order for the cracked and leaking timing cover.
He did finally send me a new plate but two weeks later and by then I had already bought another one.
Nice job for a plug and play engine, this guy royally hosed me and won't even talk to me.
Jim...Are you out there?

I don't know who put this engine together but it sure as hell wasn't anyone who knew anything about Pontiacs.
Why would you install one proper push rod and 15 incorrect ones?
That was another 30 bucks plus shipping for a set but of course the pieces of the incorrect rods have done their magic.
I was supposed to get this engine back end of March, first two weeks in April it didn't get here until Oct. 28 then it was on the engine stand for another month while I bought replacement parts and waited on shipping.
For my patience he was supposed to send me a period correct distributor no charge but that didn't arrive, another 190 bucks from Frank's plus shipping.
Do I need to go on?
This is a parts matching car and I sent the engine to the other side of the country to have "the best" do the build and what I got was an incomplete cobbled together POS with rusted tins!
Here is the valley pan, oil pan was just as bad.

http://www.gtoforum.com/f92/wtb-1967-400-valley-pan-97513/

What say you Jim?
Are you out there?
Thanks for taking my money and ruining my engine.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Looks like I am not the only one burnt by Jim, I found this while surfing around looking for another engine builder.

Central Virginia Motor Sports, Inc. Reviews, Complaints, Customer Care Service

Steve it isn't looking good for you and I would for sure find another builder to go through your engine, no sense in installing it only to have it blow up on you.
:/


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Goat Roper said:


> Looks like I am not the only one burnt by Jim, I found this while surfing around looking for another engine builder.
> 
> Central Virginia Motor Sports, Inc. Reviews, Complaints, Customer Care Service
> 
> ...


Wow, does not look good and seems to ring true with what all you have experienced.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

PontiacJim said:


> Wow, does not look good and seems to ring true with what all you have experienced.


People's money and dreams flushed because he won't throw in the towel.
Hopefully people will do an internet search and read up on what's going on and his phone will stop ringing.
I am going to call Wayne's engines in Riverside and see if he does Pontiacs and get a price.


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## Hallett Dave (Apr 29, 2016)

Goat Roper said:


> People's money and dreams flushed because he won't throw in the towel.
> Hopefully people will do an internet search and read up on what's going on and his phone will stop ringing.
> I am going to call Wayne's engines in Riverside and see if he does Pontiacs and get a price.


Eric,
Let me know what you find out. I don't have a verdict on my engine yet.
Everyone, enjoy the weekend, honor our fallen and say a prayer for their families. 
Be safe.
HD.


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## zrsteve (Aug 28, 2014)

Goat Roper said:


> Looks like I am not the only one burnt by Jim, I found this while surfing around looking for another engine builder.
> 
> Central Virginia Motor Sports, Inc. Reviews, Complaints, Customer Care Service
> 
> ...


I will as soon as I get home. My SIL's father had a 461 stroker built by a machine shop an hrs drive from my house. I give him a call for the information.


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## zrsteve (Aug 28, 2014)

Hallett Dave said:


> Eric,
> Let me know what you find out. I don't have a verdict on my engine yet.
> Everyone, enjoy the weekend, honor our fallen and say a prayer for their families.
> Be safe.
> HD.


HD.....are you having your engine done at CVMS?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

"I am going to call Wayne's engines in Riverside and see if he does Pontiacs and get a price."


Good. I hate to see you throw in the towel at this point as disappointing as this has all been. Ya, it'll be more work pulling the engine and putting it all back in again, but I think having another shop take a look into the engine before pulling the plug is wise. These shops can tear it down and inspect all the clearances for a reasonable rate and hopefully just do some R & R on any parts needing it and button it up. Then you can sleep and have piece of mind, one way or the other, and know you did your best. 

Document everything, you might still want to sue in a small claims court - yes a hassle - but you can include travel expenses in getting to court to be present. I would consult a local lawyer just to see what recourse you do have.


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## Hallett Dave (Apr 29, 2016)

zrsteve said:


> HD.....are you having your engine done at CVMS?


**** no!!!!!
And I certainly will not take mine back to JMS Racing in SoCal!!!
Thank you for your concern.
HD


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Hallett Dave said:


> **** no!!!!!
> And I certainly will not take mine back to JMS Racing in SoCal!!!
> Thank you for your concern.
> HD


I have been researching these builders Dave and JMS gets rave reviews just like CVMS did!

I am so screwed there is just nobody in So Cal that does Pontiac engines.
I am right back to square one where I was over a year ago.
If this car doesn't sell at the car show tomorrow I am just going to store it for a couple years and save up for an LS conversion.
I am not rolling the dice just to have another hack screw me, I am going to go with all new stuff.
Now I see why so many guys go with the LS conversion, they have to get ripped off once or twice before they wise up and go with all new components.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

GR, I hate to hear all this for you. some people should not be in business. 

Just another thought for you, I have been down to Butler's buying parts. They have the reputation as excellent of course, but so is their place. THis is a top shelf business operation. Yet the people are really down to earth guys who know their stuff.

They are expensive, but you might consider trying to speak to them again. If you have not maybe get one of the Butler's themselves. They sometimes answer the phone. Don't let that fool you, as this is not some little shop. Anyway, talk with them and tell them direct what happened, see if you can work out something where they can get it right.

Also, you may have done this, but I have shaved off some freight costs pretty good by using sites like freight88 and also by delivering stuff to picking up stuff at the freight dock.

It is worth another call, and if you could do it the Goat with the Butler worked on engine would likely add some value.

They are solid people, anyway good luck whatever you do. You are so knowledgeable on the car and the engine, seems like you need a chance to get it first glass, then you write the book and sell the movie rights!

Add in a little more action scenes....you might make some money in the long run!

Best


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## oldskool (Apr 26, 2015)

"...I am going to go with all new stuff.
Now I see why so many guys go with the LS conversion, they have to get ripped off once or twice before they wise up and go with all new components."


You can go with all new parts, and still have a Pontiac engine. Yep, the parts are available now to build a Pontiac engine, without using a single GM part. There are iron and alum blocks, alum heads, aftermarket timing covers, oil pans, etc, etc. 

Not all the Pontiac engine builders have gone bad. I've heard good stuff about Len Williams, Paul Sandoval, Paul Spotts, Don Johnston, Tin Indian, Paul Knippen, and others.

Len Williams Auto Machine

pontiac crate engines

http://www.spottsperformance.com/

DCI Motorsports - Home of the New Ram Air Five Heads

Pontiac Engine Gallery & Pontiac Engine Combinations ? Tin Indian Performance

https://www.facebook.com/PaulKnippensMuscleMotors/

Paul Spotts builds a 505 lower end crate engine, starting @ $6190. You can upgrade to a forged crank, and should have a real strong foundation for some Pontiac torque. :smile3:

IA2 engine block


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

I have researched all of these guys OS and I left my contact info with Len Williams and he never responded.
I really don't want to go with anyone who isn't local anyway, I learned my lesson on that long distance BS.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Well I started the goat and gimped it to the local car show, 60 pounds of pressure when I left and down to 10 when I arrived and shut it off.
Had a fun day, won best of and then drove it around the corner to the shop.
Here are some pics.
Going to yank the mill tomorrow and assess the damage and go from there.
I have my shop manual.
I have my lovely assistant Ivanka.
And I have my Thermos.


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## zrsteve (Aug 28, 2014)

Hallett Dave said:


> **** no!!!!!
> And I certainly will not take mine back to JMS Racing in SoCal!!!
> Thank you for your concern.
> HD


Hmm....care to share your experience with JMS Racing? What motor are you rebuilding? GTO?


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## Hallett Dave (Apr 29, 2016)

zrsteve said:


> Hmm....care to share your experience with JMS Racing? What motor are you rebuilding? GTO?


Sure Steve.
I sent you a PM.
Feel free to give me a call and we can discuss the issues I have with JMS Racing.
HD


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Engine and tranny out and engine on stand in 4 1/4 hours.
Screen looks clear, some pieces in the oil pan.
Complete teardown tomorrow.
Some pics.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Goat Roper said:


> Engine and tranny out and engine on stand in 4 1/4 hours.
> Screen looks clear, some pieces in the oil pan.
> Complete teardown tomorrow.
> Some pics.


Even though your oil pump screen looks clear, don't assume that the oil pump didn't sucked up some debris through the bypass hole in the center of the screen. Debris can be sucked up and into the oil pump doing damage to the gears or even getting under the bypass check ball and hanging it open -which will give you bad oil pressure. Happened to me, so highly suggest either tearing into your oil pump or simply replacing it so you can sleep at night.

BTW, the screen on my oil pump was a very fine mesh, almost too fine. The pump I am using on my current build has a screen with much larger mesh. I feel the extremely fine mesh had problems flowing the 10w-40 through it and may have been ok for a lighter oil - which is my opinion. :thumbsup:

Keep us posted as you tear it down.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

New oil pump is already on the list PJ along with complete gasket set, plasti-gauge and bearings.
I should have used macro focus on the oil pan pic, all those reflections from the flash are pieces of metal.
Oil filter was also full of metal frags and you can see tiny particles in the oil when you take the pan out into the sun.
Got another magnet full in the recesses on the heads so the whole engine has to be disassembled, inspected and cleaned.
I will post more pics tomorrow on what we find.
A couple more pics from today, my son and Ron are rating Jim's engine work.
:frown3:


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## Hallett Dave (Apr 29, 2016)

Goat Roper said:


> Well I started the goat and gimped it to the local car show, 60 pounds of pressure when I left and down to 10 when I arrived and shut it off.
> Had a fun day, won best of and then drove it around the corner to the shop.
> Here are some pics.
> Going to yank the mill tomorrow and assess the damage and go from there.
> ...


Congratulations Eric on best of and for making the trip to and from the event without the Goat being Found On the Road Dead. :wink3:
I'll give you a call.
Still no news on my engine issues. The shop was closed today and I am perfectly OK with them taking the time off to honor our fallen servicemen and women. I have made a lot of toasts to them today.
3o AM may be a MFR tomorrow.
Later my friend.
HD


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Thanks Dave, I missed the show last year because of the engine delay so I wasn't going to miss it this year.
A lot of metal bits inside, pulled the rear main and it is junk and the center cam bearing is spun.
Dropped the block and heads etc. off at the machine shop today so I should have a verdict in a couple of days.
The rusty guide plate and spring caps is a nice touch.
:/
More pics.


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

GR,

All I can say is, wow! 

Chuck


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Eric, I am_ delighted_ that you are prevailing and getting the Pontiac engine checked out and repaired. An LS conversion on a car as nice as yours and as correct as yours would be a criminal act and a severe downgrade on the car. Pontiac engines CAN and ARE reliable and user friendly if they are assembled correctly! I can testify to that. Your cylinder walls don''t look too bad,,,,I'm hoping a clean up hone, and a crank polish with new bearings will get you back in action. I would have the block thoroughly disassembled and tanked due to the amount of shavings and broken bits of hardened metal I am looking at. Glad it's going ok, and I'll say it again: MAN that's a clean GTO!


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

chuckha62 said:


> GR,
> 
> All I can say is, wow!
> 
> Chuck


Same thing the machinist @ Southwest said.
:shutme


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

geeteeohguy said:


> Eric, I am_ delighted_ that you are prevailing and getting the Pontiac engine checked out and repaired. An LS conversion on a car as nice as yours and as correct as yours would be a criminal act and a severe downgrade on the car. Pontiac engines CAN and ARE reliable and user friendly if they are assembled correctly! I can testify to that. Your cylinder walls don''t look too bad,,,,I'm hoping a clean up hone, and a crank polish with new bearings will get you back in action. I would have the block thoroughly disassembled and tanked due to the amount of shavings and broken bits of hardened metal I am looking at. Glad it's going ok, and I'll say it again: MAN that's a clean GTO!


Crank at the rear main looked ok, bearing not so much.
I was just going to go with bearings and a polish and a new oil pump but the amount of metal is just too much and it is everywhere so yeah complete teardown and tanking is a must.
I also have to get the rest of that damn rust out of it, there was no rust anywhere in that engine when I sent it off.
I can't believe I paid to have this engine shipped both ways and waited almost a year for an incomplete rusted out terd with broken and missing parts!


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

Hang in there man. Given a little time this will fade and you'll hopefully enjoy your car without having to think about this shitty experience too much.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

chuckha62 said:


> Hang in there man. Given a little time this will fade and you'll hopefully enjoy your car without having to think about this shitty experience too much.


It will be awhile before I forget this screw job.
eeved:
The adventure begins, first order goes out to BOP Engineering $162.47 for one piece Viton RM seal, one piece oil pan gasket and a set of rocker studs to replace the rusted ones.
Looking at next Tuesday for report from machinist.


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## 68GTO4004Spd (Jun 19, 2008)

Man that sucks, I am glad that you decided to fix it rather than sell it. Hang in there man.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

68GTO4004Spd said:


> Man that sucks, I am glad that you decided to fix it rather than sell it. Hang in there man.


Not much I could do but rebuild it again, the car isn't worth much with a junk engine.

Here is a pic of the oil pump base plate, I am hoping the filter caught the big chunks that destroyed the pump.
New Melling pump on the way from Summit.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Another dissatisfied customer of CVMS.
Posted on the Pontiac Street Performance forum.

clintww
Cochise



USA
580 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2016 : 9:39:12 PM 

This isn't the only or first engine Jim has done wrong. Some of you may remember me posting about my engine I was having Jim do for me. Less than 3000 miles later I got to do it all over again. This was because of poor workmanship. There were several issues with the work I won't go into. I never contacted Jim about my issues, so I don't know what his action may have been for me. I just didn't want to deal with him again no matter the cost. Which by the way was almost 4000,00 to correct all of the mistakes. I shipped the engine to him, and knew a year later that if I didn't go get it in person, I wouldn't get everything back. I will never ship another engine out. I never had any intention of posting this, but after reading the OP's story, I can't stay silent. I doubt Jim will care much anyway.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Even with a bad engine it's still a GTO.


Meanwhile over in Cedar Glen, a car show hosted Sunday by the Boys and Girls Club’s Resale Boutique and Collectibles featured a display of 33 exotic, hot rod and other collectible cars. Voted best Exotic Car was a 1987 Ferrari 308 GTS owned by Boys and Girls Club president and event organizer Dennis Parker. Capturing first place in the Hotrod category was Lake Arrowhead resident Mike Buscemi’s chopped and channeled 1930 Model A Ford sedan and *Best Muscle Car *honors went to a *1967 Pontiac GTO owned by Eric Johnson of Lake Arrowhead*. Noting that over 600 persons attended the free car show, which also featured free food, organizer Dennis Parker told The Alpenhorn News, “We put this on to say thank you to all of our boutique customers.” 

- See more at: Memorial Day memories


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Update:

Heads 3 leaking valves, 60 pounds of seat pressure supposed to be 117 so wrong spec springs for the cam.
Spun cam bearing, cam is ok.
Main and rod bearings toast, crank ok just needs polish.
Cylinders need to be honed, rings need to be replaced.
Parts will be in Thursday, engine will be done by midweek next week and I should have it back in the car that weekend.


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Out of curiosity, what cam did Pbody spec and supply in the build?
Did the forged pistons have a special dish to lower static C/R...or were the 670's chambers opened up via the "670" open chamber mod? Glad to read the crank wasn't hurt and it's going back together.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Pinion head said:


> Out of curiosity, what cam did Pbody spec and supply in the build?
> Did the forged pistons have a special dish to lower static C/R...or were the 670's chambers opened up via the "670" open chamber mod? Glad to read the crank wasn't hurt and it's going back together.


Comp cam part # 51-222-4 specifies 988-16 valve springs to be used with this cam.
Pistons look dished, not sure because there was no build sheet supplied just engine rebuild, just says rebuilt with forged pistons, forged connecting rods, Comp Cam Magnum rocker set 1.5:1 ratio.
$4,870.01
Supposed to be 9.5:1 compression ratio to run on pump gas.
Here is a pic of the pistons.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

GREAT news. Yeah, those are dished pistons....almost look like the old Sealed Power's cut on a lathe. Not a bad thing....very strong pistons. You dodged a bullet, Eric. I started to think of CVMS as 'Cricket Automotive', since that seems to be all the response you've gotten from them......crickets. You have one hell of a classy GTO there, Sir!


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Thanks GTOG, the builder thinks it was the geometry of the valve train since the only rod that wasn't chewed up was the one Pontiac rod with the welded ball.
Other than that the build was okay, I have no idea whose engine got my pushrods and original bolts.
I am guessing these engines don't get their own bays but are just assembled with whatever is lying around in the shop.
All that work, time and money pissed down a rathole over 30 bucks worth of pushrods.
:/


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

Goat Roper, Any shots of the bottom of those pistons? I know it's hard to get a shot, but you can usually easily tell a forged from a cast piston. Just curious is all. Those sort of look like cast, but it's hard to tell from the top.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

The receipt states forged pistons and I didn't get any pics of them from the underside.
I will ask the builder tomorrow when I drop off parts.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Parts came today from BOP, gonna take them down to the builder in San Ber'dino in the am.

PM from another satisfied customer:

Hi.
I don't want to go into a lot of detail, but you aren't the only guy CVMS has screwed over. There are more people than mentioned on PSP, and one guy that I know of was a similar situation to yours, only his engine was COMPLETE junk and he couldn't salvage much from the carnage. When he got it back from CVMS, the engine made "knocking" noises just from turning it over by hand, and when he removed the oil pan "someone" had taken a hand grinder and tried to clearance the crank shaft. Seriously? Yes, complete loss. Some of the guys on PSP are personal friends of Jim L. so it's not surprising they stick up for him, but trust me, his reputation isn't as good as those folks think. I'm just letting you know a few of the things I know of. 
I haven't posted any of this because I'm close to a couple situations and people who have been screwed over by him, and it's really "old news" from several years ago but you deserve to know you aren't the only one who has suffered from it. I hope you are able to overcome the damage and can make a good engine from the ashes so to speak.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

chuckha62 said:


> Goat Roper, Any shots of the bottom of those pistons? I know it's hard to get a shot, but you can usually easily tell a forged from a cast piston. Just curious is all. Those sort of look like cast, but it's hard to tell from the top.


Builder confirmed today that the pistons are forged. 
Long block will be back together midweek next week so I should have it back together and in the car that weekend.

Jim emailed me and of course he isn't happy about this review but after reading this I don't expect any compensation in any form.

Central Virginia Motor Sports, Inc. Reviews, Complaints, Customer Care Service

I could have written parts of this, here is one interesting excerpt.

"He said nothing they could really put thier finger on and for me to try setting the timing back a little more. I told him I was not that experienced doing that but I will take somewhere to get that done. I took the truck to ******* ****** *** ****** on a trailer. He imediatley told me to turn the engine off. He took the same rocker cover off that *** did at my house and found the same rocker arms loose. He said they should not do that. *He found that the wrong push rods had been installed". *

It's like Deja Vu all over again.
:frown3:


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I don't expect Jim is happy. Your engine needed to be taken care of and was not. The reality is, in the age of the computer, CVMS is ruined, at least when it comes to Pontiac engines. I know I would never consider using them, ever, after what I've seen. Nobody is perfect. People here are well-intentioned. But vendors have GOT to know that if they fail to make good on an item at the consumers expense, word will get around QUICKLY to all who matter, and business will dry up and blow away. Done. Finished. It's not like it was 15-20 years ago....Now the bad news is at all 4 corners of the earth in hours. Jim should have taken care of you, and did not. It cost you a bundle. It cost him a lot more. Bad deal all around....can't wait to see the finished product. Wrong pushrods? _REALLY?_ That is unconscionable for a professional shop....just not acceptable at ALL. They owe you a new engine and an apology.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

My buddy who is helping me with this engine wanted me to post about the missing parts and rusted tins when it first arrived back in Oct. but I just wanted to fix it and get it into the car.
I told him it will do no good to complain, this is what he sent me and we just have to fix it.

Jim attempted to repair the timing cover but when he had run it on the stand it was leaking and it had a blob of what looked like Permatex smeared on the backside.
Nice repair and my first clue about how slipshod the work was.
I was able to source another cover from Frank's and removing the bad one that is when I discovered the cracked balancer hub, this was supposed to be a new unit but the old one was installed and the balancer was in the crate in a box but no bolts.
Once I got the timing cover off I saw all the rust in the oil pan so that had to come off.
it was at this point Ron said "You know we have to pull the intake and the valley pan because it probably looks like the oil pan".
Sure enough the valley pan was just as rusted as the oil pan, no attempt to even clean any of it off just painted over.
2 cans of Pontiac metallic blue goes on the list as well as a new balancer, gaskets, bolts etc.
I was also supposed to get a new flex plate on this "turnkey engine" I had called Jim when the engine arrived and asked about it.
He did send me one but it took so long I assumed he blew me off so I bought another one and of course had to get the shim plate bolt plate and bolts from Frank along with a distributor that Jim said he would include because I had waited so long for my engine.
Not only did I wait 9 months for this engine it was on the stand for over a month while I ordered missing and broken parts so I could finally install my "turnkey engine".
Now after 500 miles I have it out and back to square one because of a mixed bag of pushrods.
To add insult to injury Jim has the nerve to call me a liar, here is his email.



Jim Lehart <[email protected]> 

Eric,

I’m going to have to consider how to handle this. Considering this is the first attempt you’ve made to contact me, yet you have trashed me on at least two sites I know of, AND lied about it, I’m, certainly not going to simply roll over. Your assertions leave much to be desired, as well. I might consider some compensation for parts, depending on what they look like. No labor. Our warranty policy is clearly stated on our website.

Jim

My reply:

I haven't lied about a thing Jim, all the tins were solid rust, cracked hub, missing bolts etc.
The engine was on the stand for over a month while I waited on gaskets and bolts from Ames and I spent 100 bucks just for two gallons of rust eater for the valley pan.
I was supposed to get a new hub and balancer, I got a cracked one mounted and the old balancer in a box with no bolts. 
What happened to my pushrods?
You send me a rusted POS with missing parts and bolts and have the nerve to call me a liar?
I got one welded ball Pontiac rod as you see in the pics and 15 from who knows where.
I read the warranty, you know what you sent me and there is no way in hell I would ship that engine back to you.
You had your shot and you sent me a piece of crap so I really don't care what you do at this point, I have had to eat the loss on this engine and now I have bought my 3rd gasket set and have to pay the shop to R&R that engine twice.
I have had to do it all twice and some of it 3 times.

The springs on the heads were not correct and 3 valves are leaking and so many pieces of metal in the engine it had to be torn down, block boiled and start over.
I don't know where the hell you stored that engine for 9 months but I ordered new rocker studs from BOP since those were so rusted and so were the guide plates.

I can't believe I was stupid enough to send that engine all the way to the other side of the country thinking it was well worth it to have "the best" build it.
If I wanted a f***** up engine Bruce F***** is 40 minutes away!

Keep the money Jim, I just hope I saved someone else from making the same mistake I made.

Eric


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

Stick to your guns, Eric. From the pics you posted when you very first got the motor back, it was obvious you were telling the real story.

I'm glad you didn't give up on it and that you're making progress.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

chuckha62 said:


> Stick to your guns, Eric. From the pics you posted when you very first got the motor back, it was obvious you were telling the real story.
> 
> I'm glad you didn't give up on it and that you're making progress.


I knew from day one I got taken and there would be zero recourse unless I threw good money after bad to sue him just to get an uncollectable judgment.
Of course I am telling the real story and if Jim wants to haul me into court I have 2 ASE certified mechanics with CA. B.A.R licenses to back me up and a bunch of pictures.
Yeah, he might consider some compensation on parts.
What a toolbox!

He sent me junk and he knows it, what reputable shop would let all the tins rust and do nothing about it?
Just slap some paint over it and the chump will never be the wiser.
Rip me off then when called out calls me a liar.
Seems to be a pattern here, screw it all up then blame the customer.

How about this Jim, the $4,870.01 I paid for a "turnkey" engine and the almost 15 hundred in shipping both ways and I'll eat the labor?
It could have been worse, with 62 pounds of seat pressure on the valve springs I could have spit a keeper, sucked a valve into the combustion chamber and lost my parts matching block.
At least it is in the hands of a REPUTABLE shop now and the heads and everything else will be done right.
Time to change your motto to CVMS Home of the Injured Engine.
:mad2:


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

A PM from another Pontiac guy who has done quite a few of these engines.

"I've seen the ends of stock pushrods chewed up before, and enough times that I won't put them back in an engine. They might live 250,000 miles mated to their original counterparts, but start changing things and increasing spring pressures and they crumble away within a few hundred miles. I haven't seen a problem with the originals that have the ball pressed into the ends like your bottom pushrod in the photo.
What rocker arms are you using?"


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

I picked up my engine this morning in San Ber'dino and tomorrow I have to hang the exhaust manifolds and it will be ready to reinstall in the goat.
Here are some pics, all the rust and frags are gone, new springs, pushrods, bearings and rings.
A couple of cylinders were undersize so now it is a true .030 over.
Here is a before of Jim's rustoration and the restoration done by Southwest.
The difference is night and day.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

More pics.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

You are right, night and day. It's like your engine has a new karma coming off it. Hoping all will go as it should!


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

1968gto421 said:


> You are right, night and day. It's like your engine has a new karma coming off it. Hoping all will go as it should!


Hoping so, it is pretty much all together now going to spin the oil pump tomorrow and check the pressure then drop it in.
I should have it running either Thursday or Friday.
Some more pics.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Ya buddy, now that's an engine and looking real good. So glad you went to the end with this even though I know you were ready to throw in the towel. Can't wait to hear your comments on how well it performs. Gotta give a plug to your engine builder as it sounds like a quality shop and a man who knows engines.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

This is the place I took it to PJ.

Auto Replacement Parts, Engine Parts | San Bernardino, CA

I will post with updates, I am pretty sure it will be a runner this time around.
The guy is old skool and builds really nice engines and when he saw what I was sent and how long I waited for it he moved me up on the schedule and knocked it out.
Trying to stay original but I just can't hang with the stock starter so I went with a Robb MC gear reduction starter.
I also had a clearance problem with the frame and the driver's side exhaust manifold so rather than beat the frame in I reworked the manifold so as long as I have to do it over I am going to fix the other problem areas.


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

THAT's more like it. Now, in the words of Larry the Cable Guy, Git-R-Done!


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

chuckha62 said:


> THAT's more like it. Now, in the words of Larry the Cable Guy, Git-R-Done!


The engine is in, 65 pounds of oil pressure with the drill and everything is oiling.
Tranny goes in tomorrow and it should be running by the end of the day tomorrow.
No pics, I forgot my camera today.
:grin2:


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## Hallett Dave (Apr 29, 2016)

Goat Roper said:


> The engine is in, 65 pounds of oil pressure with the drill and everything is oiling.
> Tranny goes in tomorrow and it should be running by the end of the day tomorrow.
> No pics, I forgot my camera today.
> :grin2:


Glad to hear the good news Eric.
I have been out at the river house in AZ over the weekend and a little out of touch.
I dragged the Hallett back to Lancaster to work out an electrical problem that I had the last day on the river. I'm thinking a ground issue most likely. Fock it was hot out there. :surprise:
Talk to you soon.:smile3:


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

It has been in the 90's up here and working on the goat while waiting on boat parts.
Did the impeller on a Century with a built 440 at the end of the day so we will be launching it and taking out around the tower for a test in the am.
Just one boat to repair?
Here is a pic of the lot in front of the shop yesterday.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

It's all done except for the dist. and plug wires and putting on the hood. Here are some pics, we will be firing it up tomorrow.
Prime rib tomorrow at the Cedar Glen Inn we are going to use the two free dinners the goat won me at the local car show.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Eric,thanks for the updates....you made my day.......Prime Rib? Now I'm jealous.............


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

It's probably been mentioned, but just to make sure... You know how to break in the cam, right? Also, when you do, make sure to have a BIG high flow fan pointed at the radiator. Your car will likely never run hotter than while you're going through the cam break in.

I just did the run in last week on my dad's 1960 383 DeSoto. He was confused by it. He said, "We never had to do anything like that before." I explained it and all he could do was shake his head in lament at how things have "improved".

Good luck, Eric!

Chuck

P.S. I drove my dad to a Father's Day car show he has wanted to be in since HE initiated it 22 years ago. We drove the DeSoto which had been off the road for 20 years. It felt good!


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## BierManVA (Jan 6, 2014)

I read this thread with interest and am sorry to hear of the issues you faced. I'm glad the re-re-build seems to be looking better though.

I can give a little first-hand knowledge of Jim and CVMS as I live not far away and have been to the shop a few times to discuss my build with Jim. He did the machine work on my block a couple years ago before he had the issues with his eyes. I am not defending nor endorsing him here. I'm just gonna say what my experience was and what I observed.

First off, Jim's shop is pretty much of a disaster. There are literally hundreds of heads, blocks and cranks, along with other various parts, stacked all over the place. It's basically one large room with some narrow aisles between the various equipment used for machining. There are no dedicated build areas there and the stuff that is being worked on could literally be spread across the shop. Navigating the shop was difficult at best and the machining areas were always very dirty with piles of metal shavings and metal dust. I observed an IA block and heads that Jim milled sit in the same spot for months and months. Never moving. Jim would like to tell me it was for a racer in Europe. I wondered to myself if it would ever get done!

My understanding is that Jim had a couple of very good guys working for him just a few years ago and they left to start their own business near Richmond. This got Jim very behind and he hired a few young apprentices to assist him. Even though I had just started researching my engine rebuild, I knew after talking with these young guys that I did not want any assembly work performed there. I told Jim I wanted to perform all the assembly myself and then grilled him knowledge wise about what I wanted. He was very helpful in this regard and I can say that he is really a walking encyclopedia regarding Pontiac engines.

When I got my block from him, I double checked everything, cleaned the block again and then assembled it. All measurements were perfect so in that I can say he did well.

As most know, Jim had a serious eye injury and subsequent surgery left him in worse shape. His months away from the business obviously allowed a lot of shoddy work to make its way out the door. My knowledge of any other bad work is lacking though.

As a final observation, I have to say that it looks like time caught up with Jim. He looked very old and tired the last few times I saw him. As for knowledge, he was always there with that. His mind was sharp. but I think he lost the drive to oversee his work and what he was putting out.

I have meant to stop in to see him but the last few months have been busy. To hear he sold the business does not surprise me if true. But I'd venture to say that CVMS is done.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

geeteeohguy said:


> Eric,thanks for the updates....you made my day.......Prime Rib? Now I'm jealous.............


It's alive...well sort of and the prime rib was killer!
I screwed up and didn't check the intake gaskets against the intake and the crossover area had the square gaskets instead of the rectangular ones.
2 hour round trip to the engine shop for the proper gaskets and the manifold is back on.
Tomorrow about 15 20 minutes and it will be a runner, other than the exhaust leak it ran great.
The tranny dipstick had been pulled so many times over the years it had a hole worn in the tube so I ordered a new one from Ames.
Pretty cheeky looking so I cut the handle off the original and welded it to the new stick.
It is a little longer so it isn't as hard to check the fluid now.
The RobbMC gear reduction starter is dynamite, all my wires are now routed away from the manifold and it works every time.
More pictures tomorrow.
:grin2:


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

chuckha62 said:


> It's probably been mentioned, but just to make sure... You know how to break in the cam, right? Also, when you do, make sure to have a BIG high flow fan pointed at the radiator. Your car will likely never run hotter than while you're going through the cam break in.
> 
> I just did the run in last week on my dad's 1960 383 DeSoto. He was confused by it. He said, "We never had to do anything like that before." I explained it and all he could do was shake his head in lament at how things have "improved".
> 
> ...


Thankfully the cam survived it just needed bearings and I drilled out a 2X6 for the 16 lifters so they all went back in the same spots.
The cam has 500 miles on it so it is broken in.
I will use the fan though when I run it to seat the rings, great idea.
I ran the oil pump with a drill to pump up the lifters and make sure it was oiling before I buttoned it up.
65 pounds @2,000 RPM.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

BierManVA said:


> I read this thread with interest and am sorry to hear of the issues you faced. I'm glad the re-re-build seems to be looking better though.
> 
> I can give a little first-hand knowledge of Jim and CVMS as I live not far away and have been to the shop a few times to discuss my build with Jim. He did the machine work on my block a couple years ago before he had the issues with his eyes. I am not defending nor endorsing him here. I'm just gonna say what my experience was and what I observed.
> 
> ...


What you have posted pretty much jives with what I have heard in PM's, it could have been my engine you saw sitting for months just rusting away.
Some people just don't know when to throw in the towel and in Jim's case he should have tossed it a few years ago.
I have seen pics of the shop and it is a hoarder's heaven, no way I could work in that kind of mess/claustrophobic environment.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

All finished and it runs great with 60 pounds of oil pressure at 210 deg.
No leaks.

Here are a couple more pics.


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## GTOJUNIOR (Aug 7, 2011)

*OUTSTANDING, I'm glad you stuck it out. The payback was worth it. ENJOY the RIDE!*


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## Hallett Dave (Apr 29, 2016)

Goat Roper said:


> All finished and it runs great with 60 pounds of oil pressure at 210 deg.
> No leaks.
> 
> Here are a couple more pics.


I am relieved and happy for you Eric. :smile3:
Enjoy.
HD


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Hallett Dave said:


> I am relieved and happy for you Eric. :smile3:
> Enjoy.
> HD


Thanks Dave, I am on my way up to Big Bear in a few minutes now that I have an engine that will get me there.


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

Whew! I'm sure that's a huge weight lifted off ya. Congrats!


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

chuckha62 said:


> Whew! I'm sure that's a huge weight lifted off ya. Congrats!


I made it up the mountain to Running Springs and it runs great until you shut it off then the carb boils over and floods the engine.
It hits 220 degrees now but it should run a bit cooler once I break it in.
Tomorrow I am going to add a thick spacer and see if that helps.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Goat Roper said:


> I made it up the mountain to Running Springs and it runs great until you shut it off then the carb boils over and floods the engine.
> It hits 220 degrees now but it should run a bit cooler once I break it in.
> Tomorrow I am going to add a thick spacer and see if that helps.


Still, sounds like internally she did great! So glad you were able to save her. The rest is stuff you've done before so you should get things where you want them. CONGRATS:smile3:


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

I agree that getting her broken in will help alot. Driving up a mountain doesn't help with cooling though. As for the carb vaporizing the fuel, that's an unfortunate by product of heat and ethanol in the fuel, most likely. 

You might want to try running straight water with Water Wetter, for the summer. You do of course, need a good pressure cap and a solid cooling system, but it sounds like you're covered there. In my experience, running straight water in the summer with the additive, keeps temps down 10 to 15 degrees. You'll want anti-freeze in the winter for sure, especially up where you live.

Just a thought until you've got her loosened up.

Cheers!

Chuck


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Yeah not sure what is going on, it could be the float level.
I changed carbs when I put this rebuild in and put on the Qjet Cliff rebuilt and now I am going to go back to the Qjet I rebuilt and see if that fixes it.
The weather up here has been in the 90s so that may be a factor, I am going to swap carbs and go from there.
Car runs at 210 and goes to 220 if I get on it going uphill but comes right back down on the flats.
It runs a lot better now that the heads and everything else is done properly, with 2.93 gearing it hits 100 mph in 2nd gear no problem and I get a nice chirp going from 1st into second.

I can't wait till I get it down to sea level in some fat air and see what it does on the freeway.
The temps are triple digit right now down the hill so I won't be doing that until it is broken in and the temps drop some.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

_You might want to try running straight water with Water Wetter, for the summer. You do of course, need a good pressure cap and a solid cooling system, but it sounds like you're covered there._

That sounds like a plan, I will call the local parts store and see if Dan has or can get Water Wetter.
I clearanced the plates in the pump, good 4 core radiator, new cap etc. and I am running 50/50 on the coolant.


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

I chased a hot running condition for quite some time on mine. The Water Wetter helped noticeably, but for a long time it would still run down the freeway at 195 to 198 and as soon as I got off onto surface streets, it would rise to the 210-215 range. It would also slowly climb while idling in traffic in the summer. 

Two years ago, I was replacing the radiator in my Suburban and was talking to the guy at the radiator shop. I had taken the GTO over to pick up my new radiator and we started talking about the Goat. I described my freeway versus surface street temps and he said, "Your fan clutch is shot". DUH! I replaced it with a Hayden heavy duty (which the rad guy approved of) and it took care of it. Now, I'm driving around in 95-100 degree heat in traffic and it runs at 192-195. 

By the way, our cars are very similar, except mine's a post with no A/C. Same gears, trans, interior, etc. Built in Fremont on May 7th, '67, sold new at Kennedy Pontiac, in Riverside on May 14th. When I got it, I saw it turn 100K mi. it came with the Protect-O plate and everything.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Very close, my car was put into service on May 5th so yours was coming off the line when mine went on the road.
I swapped carbs and added a fiber spacer so no more boil over and it fires right up when hot.
Runs a lot better with this carb so I am getting there.
I have no idea how old the fan clutch is so I am going to replace it.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Replaced the fan clutch and it runs at 200, 210 if I push it uphill then back to 200.
Runs great so I am hoping to get some miles on it now.


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

These seem to like all the little things dead on, don't they?


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

It seems so, I drove it all over today and it never went over 210.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Goat Roper said:


> It seems so, I drove it all over today and it never went over 210.


Great News! Glad things are finally going well for you and the '67! It's been a long, rough road.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

1968gto421 said:


> Great News! Glad things are finally going well for you and the '67! It's been a long, rough road.


It runs great, still no leaks and tomorrow I am going out 138 around Lake Silverwood.
I think I finally have an engine that can make it back up the hill.

I drove it in the Crestline 4th of July parade this morning as a guest of The Cruisers and at idle in traffic 205-210 for temp.
The route was packed and a *lot* of thumbs ups and comments.

If you are in my area I will be at this show with the car on the 30th.

https://lakearrowheadclassiccarshow.wordpress.com/


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Pictures.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Car is now running much better, I figure to get a couple hundred miles on it now and then do the fine tuning once the new rings are seated and the engine is broken in.
No word from Jim and I didn't expect there would be, it was close to 2K with parts and labor to Southwest Engines and of course my time to R&R the engine.
The money I paid him as well as the cost of shipping was money flushed down the toilet but at least I got my original block back and it was salvageable.
I see by another post here on the group this post saved another goat owner from getting the CVMS treatment and I hope the poster finds a competent builder to rebuild his Pontiac engine.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

So far so good and I was finally able to actually drive the car down the mountain and back up with no problems.
I now have over 400 miles on it and it runs like a smooth criminal.
If you are in the So Cal area I highly recommend Southwest Engines, they did in 9 days what CVMS couldn't do in 9 months.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Bump so another victim of CVMS can find this thread.


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## Frank R (Nov 25, 2016)

I want to thank you for taking the time to document your experience. I came across CVMS on the internet and was thinking of using them. They would have been convenient for me because I travel between CT. and FL. Not now, I won't even drive past the place.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Frank R said:


> I want to thank you for taking the time to document your experience. I came across CVMS on the internet and was thinking of using them. They would have been convenient for me because I travel between CT. and FL. Not now, I won't even drive past the place.


You're welcome.

Sadly ZRSteve was taken as well, I won't post his emails but his engine is also at another builder.


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## GTOJUNIOR (Aug 7, 2011)

WOW, this is such a sad way to go out.
Jim was one of the better builders out there, but he clearly lost the grip over the last several years.
These things are hard if not impossible to overcome.
After hearing/reading all this all over the web I will consider ourselves very lucky. 

So sorry to all who got burned.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

This is the point of these posts, to warn other Pontiac enthusiasts.
I spoke briefly with my corporate attorney and he told me interstate lawsuits can get very expensive and in the end the most I could get was a judgement that more than likely wouldn't be collectible.
The juice just wasn't worth the squeeze so I just ate the loss.

I was called a liar by Jim and posters on the Pontiac Street Performance group
yet Jim hasn't posted on either group to refute my claims or those of the others.
IMO Jim was good at one time but to keep taking work, people's money and doing this to customer's engines constitutes fraud.
My only option was to post my experience with him in hopes that others would do a google search and avoid his "service".


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

zrsteve said:


> CVMS did the rebuild on my 389 tri-power. I was in the process of installing the motor when I was pulled away on 04/29/16 for family issues. I'll be home by 05/29/16 and plan to get re-started asap. I hope I will not have the same issues GR is having, I'll keep the board posted.


Seems like CVMS has gone from bad to worse Steve, I shouldn't have recommended him on his rep and waited until my "turnkey" engine arrived.

As of today his site is still up and he is taking people's money for his "service".

Central Virginia Machine Service - Home of the ***** Engine!

Sadly nothing can be done and people that don't search his rep will continue to get screwed.


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## zrsteve (Aug 28, 2014)

I don't find fault with anybody for my CVMS fiasco except Jim Lehart, it is what it is. There are many in the forums that recommended Jim as the premier engine builder. I believed I had done my due diligence with CVMS before taking my motor to them. I obviously didn't dig deep enough. It's ironic as when I was dropping my motor off at CVMS last October Jim was on the phone informing you that your engine was complete and ready to ship, it looked good on the stand. Too bad it didn't look that good internally.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

The more I tore it back down the more problems I found.
I should have pulled the rockers then I would have found the rods, if I would have pulled the heads I would have found nothing has been done to them either.
Like you I should never have installed the engine and taken it to another builder after finding what I found.
After rechecking my engine log the actual miles this engine was 311 miles before I had to pull it and start again from square one.


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## tiretread (Sep 28, 2015)

I'm another owner that, thankfully, was directed to this thread. I was planning on taking my 389 to Jim for a rebuild next month. I too, thought I had done my due diligence but somehow missed these threads. Another forum member from PY told me to look up these threads. I'm glad I did. Many headaches and lots of money saved. 

Sorry for all of your troubles but it was great to hear that you rectified your issues and got your beautiful car up and running strong again.


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## big iron (Apr 26, 2018)

*Central Virginia Machine Shop*

I just joined the forum and in preparation for starting a thread in this section I happened to notice the reference to CVMS. As a Virginia resident I had come across their website when searching for a Pontiac engine builder and was interested in using them because they are only 1&1/2 hours down the road. I talked to them on the phone and they came across as knowledgeable and professional so I loaded up my engine and headed their way. When I finally found them I couldn't believe my eyes. The auto repair shops around my town have a better organized dump for their discarded parts. Fred Sanford would have been proud of these guys. I immediately backed out of the drive and headed home knowing nothing good could come out of that facility. I should have taken a picture of this bubba enterprise and posted it on the web. The reason I couldn't find them at first was because the business resembled a back yard single bay garage with junk strewn all over the front and the front open with a couple of engines sitting on the floor surrounded by more junk. I drove by it several times before recognizing it as a business. Just goes to show that a professional looking website can hide the real picture. 

I hate to start my first day on this forum by diving into negative comments like this but this is exactly what I would have expected from this co. and it irritates the crap out of me that you have had this kind of experience.

FYI have used Len Williams Machine Shop in Oklahoma with great results and have seen many great reviews in his regard. He is a Pontiac guy with a racing background.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Welcome to the forum Big Iron, you are confirming what others have observed.
Several of us here on the forum have been burned by CVMS.
Thankfully I found Southwest Engines in San Berdoo who upon hearing my story moved me to the front of their queue and went through my engine and fixed it properly in 9 days!
Glad you found this thread and managed to avoid the CVMS bullet, there was a time when Jim did great work but sadly that time is long gone.


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