# Sticky  1964 GTO Convertible Restoration



## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Going to document the restoration of this car I have. Will include all the data, vendors I used and prices so others can have a estimate of what is involved. 

1964 GTO Convertible, Silvermist Gray, Black Interior, 4 Barrel Carb, 2 Speed Auto, Power Top. 
Car trunk pan is rusted. 
Hood has a dent right at the apex. 
Front bumper dented and will need to be straightened and re-chromed. 
Wire harness was melted under dash, traced it back and it is the resistance wire to distributor that melted and fused the other wires together. 

Dropped 1 set of 716 heads off on 7/14 to American Engine Exchange in Oakland. Heads cleaned magafluxed, Valve seats were done and new valves and springs installed. My cost was 500.00 Took about 2 weeks for me to get them back. 

Dropped the 79J block off this morning. Motor looks to have been previously honed and assembled, but I am not sure how well it was done so American Engine Exchange is going to go through the block and put it together, torque it correctly and test run it. Stock Cam and crank. STD piston and bore size there are no sleeves in the block and it appears to be bone stock. Dont know about the bearings yet. My valley pan and intake manifold will be reused. They both need media blasting. 1 spot on pan looks worse and surface rust might be working its way down. He said it looked ok and after media blast he will know for sure. Not sure if the timing chain cover will be usable. Looks pitted. Dont know the final cost on this yet. 

Ordered a full wire harness from American Auto Wire in New Jersey. Headlight, engine, main cabin, and rear harness for 870.00 This is the oem version with the glass fuses. The rear light harness is different on convertibles. Connected by a flat ribbon to harness. It does not appear this ribbon is reproduced. 

Located new old stock acdelco remy voltage regulator for 70.00, Horn relay on fender was expensive at 120.


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## silver64vert (Jan 22, 2017)

Nice looking GTO you have there,I had the same thing in 1970 but now have one w/a white top.Mine also has a 4-bbl & auto.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

I am slightly worried about the pump gas I will use and this new engine build. I am told that using 91 octane gas I should attempt to shoot for 9:1 to 9.5 to 1 compression otherwise the car will just be a dog. Does anyone know what I should be shooting for? I am running the 1964 stock 716 heads. I think stock they offer 72cc. With the machining that has been done I am guessing they might be at 70 or 71cc. Standard bore and flat top pistons with the relief for the valves. The chart I used puts this at like 9.6 to 1 for 70cc and 9.4 to 1 for 71cc. What should I shoot for? I dont know the deck height or the size of the gasket yet. 

Also was wondering about replacing the cam. Nothing to lavish. Just something to give it a little more. I have no idea on this and was hoping to get a suggestion or advice

Also decided not to use the stock distributor. Thinking about the Pertronix D120701 plug and play. I dont want to mount a bunch of extra stuff in the engine bay.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

If you do a search using the RED "Search" feature of this forum you should be able to find your answer. This has been covered many times as well as cam choice. 9 -to-1 is probably your safest bet on compression for a street engine. However, the key is dynamic compression, as opposed to static compression. Quench area is also important.

Do a little searching on the forums, read a bunch of the posts, and you should get a better idea on building your engine for pump friendly gas. :thumbsup:


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Ok my restoration has stalled a bit. But last weekend we got to the wiring. A mouse got into the car while it was in storage and made a meal of the harness. Blessing in disguise because the loom was hacked up pretty bad in the engine and in the back. 

So I bought an American Auto Wire oem harness and I was a little pissed on the price but I tell you it was well worth it. The harness fits like a glove. The leads end right were they are supposed to, the lengths are just right and the colors match exactly what was there before. What it did not come with and from the price it well should have was the flat wire that runs from the fuse box to the rear of the car, the horn wire that goes to the second horn and the courtesy light wire. Also was missing the wire for the factory tach. 

Other than that Extremely happy and it looks spot on. My switches are ok and I am not sure if I will replace them or not but the light switch is like 54 dollars. Also something that was odd to me was the emergency flasher. Mine is right under the steering column and is not hooked up. The wires were just tucked under. But I would not know where to hook them up because the old or new harness did not appear to be set up for it. I will have to research it and figure out where they tap or splice in. 


I am sure it is something I did but right now the instrument panel lights do not come on when the head lights are turned on. And the horn no longer works. But it was pretty hot out here and I was getting a little tired at the end of the day so I will have to revisit it. The pins in the door were to far in and would not turn the courtesy light off so I have to back them off a bit to make contact. Luckily new ones are only like 4 dollars to I will replace those.

But my initial view of the Auto wire harness is really positive. It was my first attempt at replacement and I am sure I just missed a few things. 

Also there are 2 different types of bulbs in the panel. 57 and 1895. It appears the 57 and 1895 bulbs are both 14 volts but the 1895 are .3 watts higher. They appear to go to illumination and the 57 are for dummy lights.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

So I have 2 of these things. I shelved the car that still runs and drives and have opted to restore the basket case first. 

In a separate thread I indicated what will be done to the car. 

Attached are some pictures of the before. The car is nearly disassembled. What I find mind blowing is this car was parked in 1976. The damage that has been done was from 12 years on the road on the east coast, and from being parked in an actual barn from 1976 to 2017.

In retrospect I probably should have passed on the car. But it is 100% numbers matching, Right down to the shocks. That is what drew me to the car.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

*Additional Photos*

Additional Photos


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

*More photos*

More photos


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## tjs72goat (Jul 20, 2017)

I think most of us have been in that situation where we see the potential and not all that is hidden. Once the project is closer scrutinized, wish we would've passed on the purchase. Good luck on a find that has true potential in the end.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

No way around it. The body mounts and bolts were rusted together to the body. Had to cut them apart. Saving grace is the pans and floors were getting replaced anyway. 

Does anyone know about the body bushings? It there a alternative to the rubber ones? 

This is going to be a lot more work and money than I initially suspected. On paper I am 4k over the 3K I was already over and told my wife about. At this point I will just keep the damn thing when I am done and be buried in it along with my dog. 

Good news is the engine is being rebuilt with in my budget. Only enhancement from stock will be a slightly better cam, better rings, oil and fuel pumps.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I am going with, and have installed on my '68 Lemans, the PST Polygraphite body bushings. They are graphite impregnated to supposedly eliminate the "squeaking" you can get from polyurethane bushings as the frame/body moves/twists. I recall I only got the bushings and then purchased the metal inserts/bolts as a kit and added these to the bushings. 

The polygraphite/polyurethane bushings will also stiffen up the body-to-frame movement due to less flex as found in the original rubber mounts - which is also said to improve handling having less flexing of the frame. It is said that the rubber mounts absorb more road noise that gets transferred from the suspension to the frame/body. Can't support or deny any of these claims and one person's noise may not be what another hears or feels.

The PST kit is for the convertible which has the additional body mount under the door. I don't think it includes the radiator support bushings? You also need to buy your own bolts locally or a bolt kit. https://p-s-t.com/i-23159869-polygraphite-body-mount-kit.html# Bolt kit: https://www.carid.com/restoparts/su...mpn-515mh.html?singleid=97596087&url=91033913

You can buy a complete urethane bushing kit for the convertible that includes the radiator support bushings, and it comes with bolts. Appears that the bushings have the metal inserts already installed. Overall, the better deal - just not sure about the "squeaks" they claim to produce. https://www.opgi.com/gto/1965/chassis-suspension/bushings-mounts/SB515K/


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

You know what the crap of it was. The last time the car was on the road being driven was 1976. So all this damage came from only 12 winters in North East.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

tonyskala said:


> You know what the crap of it was. The last time the car was on the road being driven was 1976. So all this damage came from only 12 winters in North East.


Yep, you don't have to tell me. The salt on the roads eats away at the cars - fender wells, lower fenders, then the trunk, and eventually the frame and floors. It is sometimes hard for people who did not get this wonderful experience to understand how often the bodies rotted away and the engine/trans was still in great shape - which was why you could get a good junkyard engine for $150 and drop it into the car you blew the engine up in. Also why the original engine was very seldom rebuilt and just junked at those prices.

Now if you were religious about washing the car & its underbody after a good salting of the roads, your car had a better chance of survival. Its what my dad did to preserve the '73 Plymouth (along with the factory undercoating) which my brother now owns. Oh, its got its share of rot, but it has been minimized and the car is still presentable and original. The cars that held up the best were those that were garage kept and really did not get out in the snow to much. But generally, by 10-12 years old, the car was a rust bucket and got junked.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

I just bought the Polygraphite body bushings. I think it will make for a better ride. 

Now lets see what pops up next


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

So I am dropping the 2 speed auto transmission off tomorrow morning to get it rebuilt. I was quoted 1300 for a complete rebuild. 

The case is extremely dirty. I mean really covered in oily dirt. What I wanted to know is should I have the guy paint the exterior of transmission a glossy grey or just have him clean it as best as he can and leave it. The car is going to be a frame off restoration and going to be pretty darn close to a concourse restoration. I know they were not painted from the factory. But the rest of the car is going to look so nice. I am not sure just a media blast is going to work because it will leave the case rough and that will attract dirt. Maybe a media blast and then a clear coat of paint?


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Car is finally split. Looks like a previous hack job on floor repair. Extremely dirty and oily. So far nothing we did not expect on the body. 

Frame was a little of a different story. It looks real rough but there are no soft spots. Just real dirty and oily. One of the trailing arms was bent and I think it will have to be replaced.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

More pictures


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

More photos


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## Cafr119 (Dec 9, 2017)

I’m in the same boat, so don’t feel alone, I traded for a 1973 GTO and after I got it home after a in the dark dealing and now I have daylight I’m finding the really ruff areas of the car, I also live in a state that gets heavy snow and salt on the roadways. Your moving right along on your GTO restoration, I hope it goes well for you, I had to talk it out with one of the members here on the forum, I started to feel that I took on more than I should have due to the fact that there isn’t a lot of stuff available for the 73 and what I have found they want more than what pockets can offer, lol, So, keep up your great work and moving forward, it will reward you in the end.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Attached are some pictures of the frame. The area under the engine was just caked on with grease dirt and oil. The whole front suspension and steering is going to need to be redone. The frame looks ok. No soft spots. But I can tell if it doesn't get done now it will need to be replaced soon. 

The lat picture of is of this charger the body shop just finished. It looked awesome and looked like black glass.


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## steadyeddie (Feb 12, 2018)

I AM RESTORING A 65 GTO buy my self Trying to put it back according to the PHS documents ' I normally do big Pontiac's . 
can some one tell me if the firewall resistor block belongs on this car? also why there is a flasher location on the fuse box Thanks


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## 1964SS (Dec 2, 2015)

I believe the ignition has a resistor wire setup in the harness under the dash so that you get a full 12 volts while cranking and then it drops the voltage down in the run position so the points last longer. I'm sure someone will chime in if they know for sure.

I only had one flasher location in my 64 GTO and it's for the blinkers. Do you have two?


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

So got the call today from the machine shop and he told me the bock was stock, has never rebuilt, not cracked or damaged and is rebuildable. Went down at lunch to look at it. 

He seems to know what he is talking about, but there was 1 thing I was not in agreement with him one and that was with the heads. He said they looked pretty good and he doesn’t seem to think they need to have hardened seats. I am worried what will happen to the heads with todays gas. And I plan to put 3-5k miles on the car a year. Use high octane gas, occasionally I guess I can add lead to the fuel. 

Other than that we were both surprised on the internals of the engine. He said crank looks great, not a lot of scoring on cylinder walls, but still need to go 30 over. I was not thrilled about this but he said those odd sizes make the cost jump. And 30 was safe, fast and common. I was hoping to just hone it and use forged pistons because I understand they are slightly larger. But he recommended not to, said it would not be worth the extra cost. 

I think 30 over will make the block like a 402. He said I can use the original cam with a weld build up and grind, but it would be better to just buy a newer one with a little performance edge to it. 

Other than that he thinks he will be done in 2 weeks. 

He has 2 shops. One in the front and 1 in the rear. The front one is kept much nicer The rear one is more messy and dis-organized. But From what I have seen thus far he does good work. I am really hoping this is not a figment of sunshine and rainbows. I might have found a guy to do good work at a reasonable cost. Fingers crossed indicated hope and luck. I just want the guy to keep doing what he is doing.


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## 1964SS (Dec 2, 2015)

That's good news. The block did not look like it was vatted yet in the first pic. Has he vatted and magnafluxed the block to check for cracks yet? They aren't always visible to the naked eye. Mine had a crank in the intake valley into a water jacket. Really sucked to get that call.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Yeah those were pictures he took right after disassembly. When I got there the parts had been hot tanked and looked not brand new but pretty close.

In talking to this guy he doesn't seem to be into performance modifications. He seems to be a purist. We talked a bit and he went into changing 1 thing to increase performance has all sorts of un-intended consequences. He flat out told me he is not really a guy you want to got to for performance because there is a lot more to it than just bolting crap on. I kinda liked that about the guy. He was pretty clear what he could and wanted to do. told me why he did not want to do anything else but the more stock traditional things. I feel really good about this guy...... But I felt really good about turning down a job at Google in Dec of 1999 to take a job at Compaq instead......... Had I done that I would not have to be pinching the wallet to get this done so the wife doesn't get upset we cant vacation this year.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Man I had a horrible day. So machine shop told me there is an issue with the block. 

Apparently the block was rebuilt 1 time prior. It was bored 10 over and then the stock pistons were used with larger rings. 

That in itself was not the bad news. The bad news was he was boring the last cylinder out and saw a larger piece of metal fall out. When he looked into the cylinder he saw this hole in the cylinder wall. Then he looked at the number 7 cylinder and noticed there was a soft spot in the wall. It turns out the water vessels are pretty bad and have lots of rust. 

So he basically told me he knows the block is original to the car but it would be cheaper to just get a new block. But this is the correct block to the car. He said he can sleeve the cylinder but he thinks they all need to be done. 

So he said 1,100 to sleeve all 8. He said that the sleeve will allow me to go back to standard. 

He also said that sleeved blocks are better for high performance engines because they are a lot stronger. 

I was really upset about it but what else can I do. I do have another 79J block I can use but it is not original to the car. 

I told him to give me a day ...thinking I would solicit advice on the forum. Brother in Law said to just sleeve it. That the block would be every bit as good if not better that stock.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Ouch! My machinist gets $200 a sleeve as I thought my 455 was going to need some. Turned out OK, and didn't need any. Good thing it showed up now and not 500 miles after the rebuild.

Sleeves are harder material and more rigid, thus racers do like to install them to improve the bore sealing as they won't distort like cast. Not knowing how rigid the cylinders at the base (might the bottom of the cylinders be rotted away too?), I think I would pour some "hard-block" into the lower water jackets of the block to keep things rigid and add additional support to the new sleeves at their base if I went with sleeving the block. 

The only problem I would be concerned about is the rest of the block you cannot see. You can put new sleeves in, but will you find yourself with a hole blowing out on the outside of the engine somewhere on the water jacket because the rust ate a thin spot somewhere? I think this is where a complete and thorough sonic testing of the block would be needed to check key wall thickness. 

I would also find a service or means to first remove all the scaley and heavy rust deposits inside the block before I did anything, then sonic test it looking for any thin spots that might cause trouble later on.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

So I will give him a call tomorrow and ask him about sonic testing. He did say the block was still workable. It is just so disapointeing that this thing is this bad. It just comes from a part of the country that is rough on cars and then it just was not stored properly. 

I still feel ok as long as nothing else pops up. All in on the engine if it stays steady I will still come in under the next closest quote rebuild it. 

but man 1100 hurts. I was going to get all new glass and it looks like that will not happen now.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

tonyskala said:


> So I will give him a call tomorrow and ask him about sonic testing. He did say the block was still workable. It is just so disapointeing that this thing is this bad. It just comes from a part of the country that is rough on cars and then it just was not stored properly.
> 
> I still feel ok as long as nothing else pops up. All in on the engine if it stays steady I will still come in under the next closest quote rebuild it.
> 
> but man 1100 hurts. I was going to get all new glass and it looks like that will not happen now.


Just ask a lot of questions and trust your machinist as he is the guy who will be replacing it if things go sour - so if he is confident, then go with it.

My 455 which had severe pitting and was thought to need a few sleeves to save it, didn't need any at .060". I had to question the .060" over because that is taking it out quite a bit once you start reading the internet about boring it .060" over. Machinist told me no problem at .060" over on the 455. 

Then there were a few small discolored spots in 2 of the cylinders that looked like stains and kinda looked rusty to me under the newly honed cylinders. I was not comfortable with what I saw and had to know what it was. He told me that they were indeed stains/discoloration in the metal from the rust. I asked him if I should be concerned. He said, no that the metal was just fine, just simply stained - a metal reaction. Again I asked him if maybe a sleeve should be installed in the 2 cylinders just to make sure I didn't have any future problems. Again, he assured me that everything was ok and he has had other older blocks that were in just as poor a condition but needed to be saved for a restoration and the straining of the metal can happen when cylinders are badly rusted.

I did a web search, and sure enough, I did find a few blogs which confirmed what he told me, just stains/discoloration in the metal and nothing more. So I just have to trust him on it because he has been rebuilding engines of all kinds for 40 years and he knows his trade.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

*Half the block is sleeved*

Went by the machine shop to see how far along he is. He has 4 of the 8 cylinders sleeved and I snapped these as I never had a block sleeved before and was not really sure what went into it. 

So he told me 1100 to sleeve the whole thing, then this morning told me the sleeves for this thing were expensive and I needed to pony up the cost of the sleeves. I looked around and it appears that the sleeves really are somewhat generic and not really special to any one application. I know it is a lot of work and everything else he has been telling me is correct. I think he might have underbid the job and realized he is working for next to nothing. So I dont mind, but man if you dont keep an eye on these things it can easily spiral out of control. 

At first I was really bummed that it had to be sleeved but everything I am reading indicates that sleeved blocks are actually better than the stock ones. As long as the sleeve doesn't move. He put a lock tight product on before pressing the sleeves in. On the number 8 cylinder the rust in the water jacket completely ate through a portion of the walls. But he still said, no problem. The sleeve will more than take care of it. 

So I am guessing this block is 2 weeks from being finished. Transmission should be done this Friday.

The body and frame are still at media blasting and they are waiting for the weather to clear before they bring it back to the shop. The shop is 50 miles from my house and the traffic is terrible in the SF Bay Area so getting out there during the week is a chore. I have been making the weekly pilgrimage out every Saturday morning. So hopefully we will see the body and frame completely naked this weekend. 

So this is my first actual restore of any note. I find that it is costing a lot more than I thought and that it actually consumes a large portion of my day. I think I just picked a tough car. Both in condition and parts availability. Camaros are certainly easier. The damn bumper for a 64 is like 800 dollars. A Camero one is like 60 bucks. It also has been challenging because I am trying to make the restore as close to GTOAA standards, but the next 1k outlay might change that. 

The other thing is I have been selling my spare parts for more than reasonable costs. But anytime I buy something for this thing I feel like I am getting gouged on price. 

I have a set of fenders and doors I am selling and others are asking 2 to 3 times what I am for worse condition parts. I have also flat out refused to sell to some people who I know are just flipping this stuff. I really want this to go to people who need it, not trying to make a buck. But man it is hurting me in the wallet. On eBay right now a guy is selling 1 fender for 3K. That is totally absurd.


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## 64GTOConvertible (Aug 28, 2016)

I hate clicking on attachments...


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## Cafr119 (Dec 9, 2017)

Yeah, I hear ya on prices on used parts for these cars, my 73 restore is going to be very expensive, I’m not sure if I can swing it, Everyday I walk out to my small shop and look at the car I have convince myself it can be done, lol. Your lot further in your restore than I am, your going to love your finished car, it’s looking great.


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## 64GTOConvertible (Aug 28, 2016)

Yeah, I've got well over $50k in my 64 as well. Not counting my own labor. Expensive, but the finished product is definitely worth it.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Stopped by machine shop this AM. Guy told me he has all the sleeves in and that when they pressed in they had a slight distortion. He said they have to go .030 over to be perfect. So After all that I am back in the same spot as I was once I started but lighter on my wallet. 

He told me he should have it polished up and ready to reassemble for next week


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Man it never ends. 1 quarter cut out. there is a piece that is a drop down filler not part of a trunk pan kit. Luckily there only like 200 a set. Going to need 2 floor braces as well. 

This car better be worth it. This is a lot more than I had bargained for.


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## Cafr119 (Dec 9, 2017)

Tony it’s looking good what you have got at this point. It will pay off at the end, your going have practically a new 1964 GTO when completed, I realize one of the biggest thing is keeping that focus to see it to the end as long as it doesn’t put one in financial issues, I lost that focus and threw in the towel on my 73, but with mine the parts just are not as available as some of these earlier Pontiacs, and used, salvageable parts from Franks Pontiacs or CTC Auto Ranch or even Desert Valley, the shipping was more than the price of the part. Oops, sorry got distracted, your build is looking great and we all looking forward to see your project finished !!


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Machine shop called me today and told me the bottom end was all done. Then He told me there was an issue with the heads. I went to the shop and was extremely surprised how nice the heads came out after being cleaned. But he said that the seats would need to be hardened and that the intake channels appear to have been polished and cut. He did not think he could put new seats into them because there was not enough room. So when I got there he said he could do it a little differently. He was going to install a seat for a 400 on the intake first. Then after it was installed be would do the exhaust seat and slightly machine into the seat for the intake. So it would have sort of a slight notch. He told me 350 for each head. I have another set of heads for it but he think those were worked on as well and might take more work to finish up. So now this thing is like 90% over budget on engine alone. I was supposed to get out of it for under 3k. I am now at 4700. Then he told me there was a grove in the shaft of the harmonic balancer. He said it would be ok for a while but would eventually start to leak. So I think I need to get a new one as well. Thats another 200. 

So I need water pump, oil filter housing, Engine mounts, starter, alternator, powersteering pump, fuel pump, a carb rebuild and I am thinking a few of the brackets and pulley for the PS pump. 

I was going to ask the forum on if this grove in the harmoic balancer was an issue but why even chance it since the part is like 180 dollars. I feel stooopid for even bring it up. 


I tell you what, knowing what I know now, I would be wary of anyone trying to sell you a number matching car with a fresh of frame restore for less than 50K. There is just no way they could do it correctly unless they cut a lot of corners. I feel I have been extremely cost aware and savey and it will still run me into the high 40's or low 50's to finish it.


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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

Looks like good progress though.
I agree with the budget figure. I am pretty far into a frame off ony 68 and have spent the same as you..... right about $50k and I am doing most all my own work. Hired services are media blasting, powder coat chassis parts, epoxy coat body parts and engine machine work. Everything else is my own labor. I don't see any possible way to do a complete frame off for any less.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

You should replace the balancer anyway rather than take a chance on something that old. A quick cheap fix is a sleeve that goes over the hub. Have used them before without problem.

$350 per head ($700) is not a bad price if it includes all bronze valve guides, new stainless steel valves, seat inserts, 3-angle valve job, valve seals, springs, split locks, & retainers, and assembly.

_Budgets are ONLY hopes_ that you have which your car does not. :thumbsup:


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

The only thing I am not getting is new valves. He is reusing the old ones. But they looked really good after he cleaned them. I mentioned the sleeve for the balancer and he said they tend to expand and ruin the seal after time. I looked the sleeves up and they are like 20 dollars but I think the shaft has to be machined down. Prob another 20 there. So I will probably just get a new one. 180 from opgi is not horrible. I will just have to skip a few meals or something.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Went to Body shop this AM to check on progress. I think it is coming along a little slow. So they had the passenger trunk down filler sheet metal installed, and they had the passenger side quarter panel hung, and welded on. I put the rear tail piece on and was a little worried because the gap between the are quarter and the tail housing was off like 4 mm. I know these things were never perfect from the factory, but it looked really off. I am not sure how he will align it since it is all welded up. He had strings all over the place and it looked like it was all straight, The guy said they laser measured it and it is as straight as an arrow.

I am not sure what the blue product is but it appears to be some sort of epoxy. It was rock hard but really thin


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

The shop might be using a panel adhesive to bond the parts rather than weld them on? Modern day cars are done this way. Not sure if I like the idea or not on older cars. But just ask him. Here is an article if that is what he is doing. You can also find other articles as well. Sheetmetal Rehab With No Welding: The Glue You Can Do! - Hot Rod Network


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## GoatSilver (Aug 9, 2015)

http://www.gtoforum.com/807577-post1.html
@tonyskala

I like the stance of your 64 GTO Convertible. 

What Size Wheels [Diameter, Width, Offset, etc..]?

What Size Tires [Width, Aspect Ratio, Diameter]?


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

I will look up the size and offset of the rims and tires. But I hate it. the ass end sits up to high and throws the lines off the car. I know the rims were Boss 338 and that they are staggered but I would never by staggered tires or rims again. You cant rotate them and it limits to what you can do down the road. The rear rims and tire diameter was larger than the setup I had and it raises the tail end. I have adjustable shocks in the back so I can mess with it to get the right ride hight but then if I put crap in the trunk it gets stiff and might rub. But if you dont have adjustable shocks your stuck unless you get different springs or leafs. I am actually trying to sell the set up so I can do a smaller tire.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Went to the machine shop today to drop off fuel pump, balancer, water pump, exhaust manifolds and valve covers. OPGI sent me the wrong balancer and I have to send it back, I was lucky to get the order in when I did because it was triple points and that balancer was 200 dollars. Then this morning I managed to forget the water pump , and fuel pump at home. So I only dropped off valve covers and the exhaust manifolds.

I sort of got the feeling he was glad to be getting out of the engine. I know he put a lot of time into it and he says there was not a lot of money in it for him. It certainly lightened my wallet. 

I am a little worried because it will be some time before I actually get it into the car and get it started up. He said he used assembly lube on it and will prime the engine. But if it sits for a while I am not really sure what to do. Should I pull the intake manifold and valley pan to pour oil on the lifters and valves? He said not to and it would be ok for 6 months. I just want to make sure I dont ruin the engine.

He sort of gave me a little lecture this morning about NOT using the stock radiator. He made it a point to tell me to go aluminum 3 core and to install a fan clutch and to use DEXCOOL and not use Antifreeze.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

I went to the body shop today to check on the progress and to drop off some parts. 

He had both quarters done, both wheel wells done, and the trunk pan was finished. He had the entire floor pan and all 3 braces cut out. I noticed there were some spots on the sides that were pretty bad. They will need to be cut out and replaced. So the welds on all the tops of all the panels looked good. But the bottoms had overlap and the overlap edge was not welded. I am pretty sure he will clean them up when he spins the car. 

I know I have said it a few times but I severely underestimated the amount work this thing would take. But I quite possible picked the worst example of one to restore. 

So I pulled the heater box, heater core and steering column out. All the insulation on the firewall was toast so I pulled all that out as well. The heater core actually looked ok. I will probably replace it anyway but think I will get an aluminum one instead. The steering wheel is cracked pretty bad and I am not sure what I am going to do with it yet. I took the whole column out and will have it refurbished.


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## cij911 (Oct 25, 2017)

I love reading your thread. I am restoring a 65' convertible tri power.

Quick question, regrading your steering column. Do you think it is best to install after paint ? And are you going with a collapsible and tilt column or just cleaning the factory unit?

I replaced my steering box with a ~12.7:1 unit for much improved feel and was planning on replacing the column and wheel after paint.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

tonyskala: "I know I have said it a few times but I severely underestimated the amount work this thing would take."

PJ, Yep, and so do all those clowns who want to sell rusted/need repairs or non-running cars for $$prices they _THINK_ the car is worth when is should be sold for way below their asking price just so someone might attempt to save it. I can't tell you how often I see "junk" trying to be sold off at these swap meets or on Craigslist for thousands of dollars when they should be sold for $0-500.00 on a good day. This is how some people get way in over their heads thinking they got a "deal" until the time comes to do the rebuild. :yesnod: Does not take long to get upside down on a restoration with a lot of $$ invested and selling it at a big loss.

Make sure you keep taking tons of photos to document the entire process so any future buyer will see exactly what was done and feel confident that it was done right and is worth the asking price.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

I do not have an opinion on removing and reinstalling the column before and after paint. The reason I took it out was I could not break the steering wheel free and get it off. The car was in the air, the floor boards were out and i could stand on the shop floor and get to everything. I could easily get to the bolts so I figured I would just pull it out. But I need to get cracking on it because the called me today and told me they are almost done with all the welding. I have a harbor freight sand blaster but it sucks to use. It makes a huge mess and always clogs. The steering column will not fit in my media cabinet. I might have to rig something up because my seat frames will need to be done as well and those will not fit in my cabinet either.

I am not changing much on the car. The only differences from factory will be aluminum radiator, fan clutch, solid state voltage regulator, petronix ignition, after market radio, radial tires and KYB shocks and struts. Everything else is going to be bone stock. This thing might actually become a trailer queen. It is going to depend on how much my wife likes it when I am done. 

SO they have the floor boards and braces done. Looks like they made a series of cuts on the underside to remove rot and replaced those sections. 

Since the car was split I would have preferredhttp://www.gtoforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=113001&stc=1&d=1528159703 a 1 piece trunk pan and a 1 piece floor pan. But the parts came with the car when I bought it. I was not about to shell out another 1500 for them since I already had them. 

I have training this week otherwise I would have picked up the motor. The guy called and said it was all finished. All I have to do it get the distributor in, the carb on, Fuel pump, water pump and engine mounts.


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## silver64vert (Jan 22, 2017)

Looks like it's coming together real nice.I have your cars twin,well close ,I have a white top.The first 64 I had 47 yrs ago had a black top w/a 4-bbl,4-speed.
IDK why I can't get the pic right!


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

I just got back from the machine shop. My engine is done. I am 2K over budget on it. 

I know he did a lot of work on it but man this hurts.

So all 8 cylinders have been sleeved. The pistons are .030 over, valve seats have all been hardened. He told me it is better than new and everything is mic'ed and plastic gauged. All the veins have been filled with oil, and it is ready to go. All the specs are good and he said 1 year warrantee no milage limit. He requires new thermostat, and water pump. On the passenger side exhaust manifold there is a butterfly valve on the down pipe. He put a tack weld on it to keep it open because he said the things dont work well and they were more for cold environments. I would have preferred to use a screw to hold it open, especially since finding an original one was not easy. The body shop broke the original bolt flanges when they pulled the motor out. Aside from that I am content with what I think will be a nice engine. I just will not be able to fire it up for a while. 

Gave him the new water pump, that back plate, fuel pump new balancer, and shaft. He said he will install it all for me and paint them. 

So when I pulled the other block I had apart there was this plate under the water pump. It was cut so the impeller fit through it and then had like a channel towards the side. It looked like it was to channel water flow. Any way this block did not have it. I found one in my garage but do I not know if I need this part. The water pump had been replaced at least 1 time and I am not sure if they just did not put it back on. Does this block need this part?

Any one know if the crank pulley, and the harmonic balancer were painted the Pontiac blue? The 63 block I have it looks like the distributor, the pulley, harmonic balancer, and fuel pump were all painted. Well the top half of the fuel pump was painted. Not sure if this was someone with a can of spray paint or if it came like this.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

If this helps, I am looking at a magazine front cover color picture of a 1963 SD421 with factory aluminum cast headers & dual four's. It may have been "prettied up" for the cover shoot with the chrome valve covers.

Harmonic balancer/bolts are painted engine blue, fuel pump is natural finish- no paint, rubber fuel line hoses have the spring-type clamps, blue AC fuel filter with an engine blue hold down ring/clamp, 4-bladed metal fan and pulley are black - bolts are metal/silver finish, starter & solenoid are black (with solenoid clocked at the bottom under the aluminum cast headers), Alt./pulley are natural, Alt. brackets are black -all bolts natural/silver, dipstick handle is engine blue, chrome valve covers each with what looks like about a 2"-2 1/2" chromed tube extension with push-on chrome breather on the drivers side front & mid-valve cover on the passenger side - valve cover hold-down bolts/spreaders painted engine blue.

Inside article shows a 421HO with some differences as it has the standard cast iron exhaust manifolds, painted valve covers with short tube extensions, & black painted push-on breathers, and a black painted pulley on the Alt..


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Went to body shop today. All the rot was cut out and replaced. floor pans, trunk pans, floor braces, bother quarter panels are all done. He told me he is going to send it out to sand blasted again, and when it comes back it will move real fast. He wanted to make sure I had everything lined up when it came back. engine, tranns, seats, interior, top, etc.

He also said it would be better to rubberize the trunk. I wanted it finished smooth and painted the same color as the car, but he said they did the work anticipating the rubberized coating. Meaning they would need to go back clean and sand the welds and then skim coat the floors with filler to make them look like glass. He said it would be extra. So I am thinking the rubberized coating that is tinted to the same color of the car. It will cut down on noise but it will not be 100% correct. I just cannot stomach the overages on all of this. I might just take the less expensive route on this. 

He did have this piece he said he was not sure about. So there is a brace of some sort that was only under drivers side front left seat track. The floor pan did not have any holes in it for the bolts tot he seats. He said they can drill them but he thinks this piece is necessary. I can kind of match it up with something from OPGI. But what confuses me is that there was only 1 of them and I would expect 4 of them. A pair for each front seat. 

I read somewhere there were for converting bench to bucket seats. But the floor pans in my car had been replaced 1 time before and they were literally screwed in with sheet metal screws. So I am wondering if it was a home novice mechanic job and they just cut some corners. 

Any one know if that piece is the seat brace that gets welded in? 












On a secondary note, he is going to bag all the chrome and stainless up for me to take to get straightened and polished and re-chromed in a week. 
I called a few places out here and was quoted 800 per bumper. I nearly fell out of my chair. I wanted to stay around 1500 on all the chrome. But this looks like I will be around 2500 for all of it. I know there is a good guys popping up in August in Pleseanton CA and I have seen this guy who comes up from LA that is supposed to be pretty reasonable. going to try to find him and hope he is more reasonably priced. 

It appears the rear tail lights are concern because they are pot metal. Everyone says they will do it but not guarantee it. I hope it is not t0o much, because my budget has completely gone over. I think I saw re-pop ones for 600.


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## cij911 (Oct 25, 2017)

tonyskala said:


> He did have this piece he said he was not sure about. So there is a brace of some sort that was only under drivers side front left seat track. The floor pan did not have any holes in it for the bolts tot he seats. He said they can drill them but he thinks this piece is necessary. I can kind of match it up with something from OPGI. But what confuses me is that there was only 1 of them and I would expect 4 of them. A pair for each front seat.
> 
> I read somewhere there were for converting bench to bucket seats. But the floor pans in my car had been replaced 1 time before and they were literally screwed in with sheet metal screws. So I am wondering if it was a home novice mechanic job and they just cut some corners.
> 
> ...


Yes you should have 4 up front (2 per seat)....If you had just the outers, then your car would be setup for a bench.

I have brand new rails (yours is toast)....I was going to replace mine, but it wasn't necessary....If you want them, PM me an offer.

Chris


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Been awhile. I just dropped off all the chrome, aluminum and stainless to get straightened , polished , and anodized. The guy is up here about once a month from LA and he met me in the central valley. 

Reason I keep putting this stuff down is I hope someone like me will read it and realize what it costs to do a car properly and how quickly you will go over budget. 

So my total was 3200 for 80 pieces. He said it will not be show quality but better than driver quality and it will take a month. He is anodizing the aluminum, taking all the dents and scratches out of the stainless and welding portions of the bumper up. 

What I am not doing because it will be new are the badges, door handles, , window roll up handles, and piddly stuff on the interior that came with the kit I got.

Other than he has and is doing everything else including pot metal. The rear tail lights are pot metal and the sun visor brackets are pot metal, along with the center console.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Life keeps getting in the way. The money I had set aside for this project keeps getting raided by the other things in life that keep coming up. I think I am at the point where my excess funds for these projects has diminished to the point where I can only do one project properly. I am pretty sure I am going to have to sell this gold GTO when I am done to do the second one. 

California is becoming a place for the extremely wealthy or extremely poor. I am neither so I get squeezed, and well...I have to raid my GTO fund to make the home life work. 

Anyway.. not a tremendous amount of progress on my project. Chromer in LA has my chrome and the body guy doesn't want to move past where they are until they get the chrome. I guess to make sure it all fits properly. 

The progress that was made was on my interior. I found a guy up in the Sacramento Area who was really reasonable on the price. He custom made extra foam for all 3 seats. The seats on 64 GTO were not that comfortable to begin with. But this extra padding makes a huge difference. And this guy drilled out all the cracks in my steering wheel epoxied them all sanded it all down and got it to the point where I dont think anyone will be able to tell it was ever repaired. He also replaced the seat springs on the driver side front seat, by that I mean replaced them. I was a little disappointed on the tightness of the seat covers but he said the OPGI seats were not really the best for fit. It looks good but I thought it would custom ZZTop tight.... But he told me look they never looked this good coming out of the factory and this was the very best he could do with the materials I got him. 

I am pleased. All in on the whole interior was 1,150. That included the rear bench, two front seats, door card assembly, visor assembly, rear sail panels, and the steering wheel. I was responsible for the removal of the old material, sand blasting the frames, painting the frames, and painting and primering the steering wheel. . 

Why am I telling all of you this stuff.... Because I hope some one like me who is thinking about doing this and does not have the man skills to do everything themselves will realize that quality work you farm out costs a lot of money, and no matter how well you plan it will take 4 times longer than you think, and cost 3 times as much.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Just went by the body shop to check on progress and drop off the seat braces , seats , steering wheel , and steering column. They were blocking the car when I got there. He had all doors on and fit and gapped pretty good. I am glad I went before they painted it because there were 6 holes on each fender for trim that were there because the fenders were off a tempest. I asked home to weld them up. The only thing that is going to be a little different is the trunk is going to be rubberized and he said he will get the rubber tint so it matches the outside of the car. He said they will paint it in 2 weeks,


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

The body shop texted me and told me they put another coat of primer on the car. I was confused as to why they would do this. I trust the guy but he keeps doing things I did not know or ever hear about. Granted I know very little about proper body work. 

But he did said they will most likely paint the car next week. 

I do have a question for the forum

The center console is plastic as is the kick panel. They are both faded and either need to be replaced or repainted. I have never had much luck with Krylon rattle cans on plastic, and wanted to see if he could paint them for me. Also I am not entirely sure on the proper color on a Saddle interior.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

The body shop texted me and told me they put another coat of primer on the car. I was confused as to why they would do this. I trust the guy but he keeps doing things I did not know or ever hear about. Granted I know very little about proper body work. 

But he did said they will most likely paint the car next week. 

I do have a question for the forum

The center console is plastic as is the kick panel. They are both faded and either need to be replaced or repainted. I have never had much luck with Krylon rattle cans on plastic, and wanted to see if he could paint them for me. Also I am not entirely sure on the proper color on a Saddle interior. Does anyone know the proper paint code for the interior other than 216. I assuming these parts were either dyed when they were made or cast and never intended to be repainted. 

Anyone know of a color code in PGP that is close.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

*Been a while*

So between taxes, and new kid things have slowed down a bit. 

Body shop called and asked me to pick up the suspension parts to have the bushing pressed out and get everything back to him this weekend. 

I trekked down and when I saw the stuff I was really disappointed. He had the frame picked clean and said it is 100% reusable with only a body mount and shock mount point needing metal work. He was not at all concerned about it. He will remove to tow bar that twas bolted in and patch up the holes. 1 trailing arm is bent and when I thought about it the other 3 looked so rough I am thinking it would be best to just buy a complete new set. Upper and lower a arms are also real rough. The the rear axel and housing looks horrible. He said he just wants the bushings preset out before he sand blasts and powder coats this stuff. But the axle will need to be rebuilt. I can see it leaking and I have no idea what is it looks like inside. So I called around and was told by a guy near me 600 to rebuild the rear end. I am not sure if that is a lot of money. He told me 400 in labor alone. 

On the rest of the stuff. aside from the sway bar, everything else looks terrible to me and I would think it would be easier to just replace al of it. 

He has not painted the car yet. he said he will do the frame first then paint the underside of the car mount it to the frame and then paint the car. 

The gaps look really good. Metal work looks good..

In all honesty, my real worry is that I have been hunting for the best pricing I can find which means all my parts are scattered across Northern California. I am worried I lost pieces don't remember who has them and putting this thing back together. 

For example - the heater box. I have all the pieces and don't remember how they assemble. I can seem to find a schematic of it. 

Also what has been killing me is the cost of these little clips, connectors, screws and bolts. It is nickel and dining me to a hefty sum. 


Can Someone on here tell me if 600 is too much for a rear end rebuild?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

The frame looks rough. Looks like someone has already cut out and replaced the right side (passenger) inner boxed rail. Very rough cut/weld and it was not fitted to the center body mount very well. Probably rotted away previously. 

I would have your frame guy sandblast the frame and you take a look at it in its raw state before he does any repairs or paint. Sandblasting may blow some holes in any weak spots and you may want to see it before going any further.

You may want to also take a few diagonal measurements at this point to ensure the frame is not bent or sprung.

$600 does not sound crazy. But, if the builder finds any problems, the price will go up quickly.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Pontiac Jim- I was hoping you would chime in. So I thought the exact same thing on the repairs on the frame. But he had a frame from a 65 Chevelle and when we compare the two the both looked like that. I thought it looked like sloppy welding but he said it did not appear to have been repaired. 

The frame is getting sand blasted on Monday. He has been good about letting me know on the repairs because he knows what I am after. 

The real issue surface today when the bushings were being pressed out of the rear differential housing. One of the ears snapped. I was really upset about it. So I started about trying to find someone to weld it, and trying to find a replacement for it hoping one will pan out to be more cost effective. So I am now trying to find this differential for the car. But when I scrapped off the dirt off it has a cast code of 9779822 but the cast date is c35. This means march 3 1965. So this can not be original to the car. 

Does anyone know what 1964 GTO 4bbl with a 2 speed auto came with. I can not seem to find it in the book I have.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)




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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

OK, interesting on the frame, just would not have guessed that it was factory - kinda amateur looking in fit and finish.

Bushings can be hard to remove, but as old and hardened as they can get, pressing them out may not be the solution. It would have been wiser to use a torch and burn it out, or at least melt it a bit to loosen before pressing.

The 1964 rear end is unique in that it uses the 1 year only smaller bushing and had a shorter upper control arm. I cannot confirm, but the upper control arms may have been designed with an eccentric so they are adjustable (this would change the pinion angle). I supplied a couple pics from the web. These are Chevelle, but it was noted that they were used for other GM A-body cars.

The Pontiac 8.2 10 bolt gray iron cast center housing should have casting #9773369 . However, I found this on Ebay, 1963 cast rear end dated September (I) which makes it a 1964 rear end. It has casting #9773722 . https://www.ebay.com/i/264269389124?chn=ps

If you find a rear end, the 1964 Chevelle also uses the same smaller bushing. The Chevelle forum says Autozone sells the Duralast brand #FB295 bushings, they're $5.99 and they're the right bushings. The FB295 is the front lower control arm bushing for a 73 Camaro with a 1.375 OD.

The PHS documents for your car should tell you the factory rear axle ratio? My info says the W/AC & auto - standard ratio is 3.08. Optional 3.23, and 3.36 optional with the "77" engine only. Without AC on either manual or auto - 3.23 standard ratio on 78 & 79 engine, 3.55 standard ratio on 76 & 77 engine. Other ratios would be optional (3.08, 3.36, 3.90) to include dealer installed ratio's - 4:11, 4:30, 4:33.

:thumbsup:


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

So I can find the ratio on my PHS as 3.23. but I can not find in the AMA specifications the cast code on that housing. What I did find is that there are three different castings for the 64. I did not know about the bushing. I will make sure to note that when I buy new bushings. 

So on the 1964 as best as I can see there are 3 different housings

9773369
9773722
9779822

I saw that posting on eBay earlier today. His cast code is 1963. I can't tell if it is an I or an L though. I discounted it because the cast was off because I was not sure about it. But now I am not so sure. I have to get this book from my father in law that has more info in it and I am hoping it indicates what the differences are. I am also hoping to run into this guy in San Ramon at this coffee shop tomorrow. He is a regular there and he used to work at the Fremont factory in the 60's and 70's. he has been pretty good about how that factory worked and how they did things. 

Thanks for the info you provided. 

I got a quote of 480 dollars for a guy to come out and weld the ear back on. I almost fell out of my chair. If it was the correct rear end I might have done it. Although I was reading on the Lincoln welding site welding cast is difficult but not impossible. But they are pretty clear that it really should be used for cracks and attaching two pieces of cast together is not recommended. They also recommend preheating the cast to 600 degree before welding. They have special rods for cast that I did not know existed.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

tonyskala said:


> So I can find the ratio on my PHS as 3.23. but I can not find in the AMA specifications the cast code on that housing. What I did find is that there are three different castings for the 64. I did not know about the bushing. I will make sure to note that when I buy new bushings.
> 
> So on the 1964 as best as I can see there are 3 different housings
> 
> ...



OK, seems you have some info on the rear axle casting codes. 

The AMA specs only seems to have gear ratio choices for the GTO - with 4 Bbl the 3.23 as standard gear for both manual & auto. The GTO with tri-power option lists 3.55 as standard gear for both manual & auto. The gear ratio's I first provided came from the GTO Association handbook on GTO specs that they publish.

Cast iron can be welded. I have seen a factory weld repair to a head where the rocker arm stand was fixed. Cheaper to fix a small a small defect rather than cast another head. There are several techniques - heat or no heat. The pieces can be pinned together with a stud prior to welding as well. They make welding rods that can repair cast iron with some being a nickel based rod. From what I have been told, once welded using the nickel rod, the piece cannot be machined as the nickel/weld is extremely hard.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

I dropped both of my rear ends of this am to a fella near me who said he can rebuild the rear end for 600. 

When we got them out of the truck and set them side by side I can see the difference between the rear end cast codes 9773722 and 9779822.

It turns out that the ear on the top of the differential with cast code 9779822 has a much larger diameter hold for mounting the rear top trailing arm. 

The rear diff that is cast code 9779822 has a smaller diameter hole. Other than that from the exterior they appear to be 100% identical.

It looks to me that the 9779822 were on earlier cars and that Pontiac might have switched over to 9779822. Probably because the larger diameter bushing was better or something for torque. Maybe different gear ratios got you one as opposed to the other. I have an automatic transmission with 3.23 so this was not really a torque monster. Perhaps thats why this car got the smaller bushing rear end. But it looks like there is more meat around the bushing. I would think this added strength to the set up. But since torque twists, maybe a better or larger bushing was required. 


https://www.gtoforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119415&stc=1&d=1559941100

https://www.gtoforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119413&stc=1&d=1559941100

https://www.gtoforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119417&stc=1&d=1559941100

https://www.gtoforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119419&stc=1&d=1559941100


A couple of months ago I got a smaller media blast cabinet thinking I would be able to clean these parts on my own. Well the thing works but it takes for ever to clean these parts. And some of my stuff is heavily pitted I have to boost pressure to 260 and it still takes a long time to do these parts. I think I will just get some after market arms and just call it a day. I saw a set of upper and lowers for 470.00. I am getting new springs. My brother in law gave me a nice set of trailing arms upper and lowers. The lowers were already boxed. He said he did not know who boxed them but the weld was sloppy. So I took a grinder to it and made it look nice and neat. I will post some pictures tomorrow. 

Now I need to source the bolts for this thing. Every single bolt was rusted and then cut off. I started looking at ARP bolts and had no idea they were so expensive.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Interesting. It may be the photos, but the rear center sections look different. The later rear end appears to have a little more length and beef from the center case to where the axle tube is inserted? So similar, but not the same?


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Ok... So I have had most of the suspesion parts for a while now and the body guy doesn't want to do anything until he gets it on the frame. He cant move it around with outthe axels and front end so I need to get this all pieced together. 

So My a arms are pitted and I am just going to get new ones. After I push the bushings out and media blast them I figure I would be in it slightly more than just buying new ones. 

I found stock ones for 510 shipped both super and lowers. 

Sway bar will be reused

Power steering gear box will be rebuilt by a company in LA for 200 bucks shipping not included. Something about reciprocating ball. Need new rag joint. 

The links and bearings will be all new. This is all standard stuff

The springs are confusing me. And I need the forum's help

I have nearly stock 389 with iron heads. I see 4 types of springs for the front

500 lbs 
250 to 350 lbs
200 to 240 lbs
180 to 230 lbs

I want bone stock but want the car to ride level. The instructions say they may need to be trimmed which runs counter to what I thought. Does anyone one know what the damn thing came with stock. I dont want to spend more money than I need to rebuying this stuff and have no idea how this thing will sit since I have never seen it actually properly assembled. 

is a 389 with iron heads considered a big block.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Ok I think I found it in the AMA Specifications 

if anyone ever cares the factory stuff was 

Size 11.4 x 3.6

Spring Weight (lbs per in) 225 ....but there is a foot note (b)(e)
b- Except 275 with optional V-8 engine
e- Heavy Duty Springs optional on all models

Rate at wheel (lbs per in) 66 ....but there is a foot note (c)(e)
c- 80 with optional V-8 engine
e- Heavy Duty Springs optional on all models

Design Load (lb @ design height) 1380- 1430 ....but there is a foot note (d)(e)
d- 1635 - 1685 with optional V-8 engine
e- Heavy Duty Springs optional on all models

So I am guessing that stock cast iron block with cast iron heads fall into spring rate of 275lbs with design load of 1635 to 1685


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Ok I am at a cross road where the car will be different on the route I take.

So I have the whole chasis pulled apart and this thing had more grease and dirt on it than I thought. I got it clean enough to see that the entire hardware of the front and rear braking systems was shot. The backing plates were so pitted and rusted. So the rear end builder held off on inserting the axles until I found the backing plates. So when I priced the rear brake system out it was so close to just getting a whole kit pre assembled. So I dropped 430 dollars on a complete set of drum brakes. Those should be here tomorrow. Now the front......

So they are just as bad. The spindle and arm are the only thing useable. So I tried to find a backing plate.... I can't. I can find used ones, but nothing new. Then the drums, springs, shoes, bearings, studs, .... I will be into it for another 400. Then I caught my self.... I could have got a complete system with brake lines for 900. And it would actually stop the car...

I can't do anything about the rears. They will be here soon. But the fronts I think I am just going to go with a disk brake conversion. 

It will make this thing easier to drive. But I feel terrible about doing it.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

You will appreciate the disc brakes up front the first time you have to do a panic stop because some idiot doesn't know how to drive. So, it really does not hurt value per say and what good is trying to stay original if some day the braking just isn't responsive enough and you crash or total out the car?

Just make sure you get the matching dual reservoir master cylinder and related parts for the disc/drum conversion.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Ok... 

Got a complete rear end rebuild drum brake kit. (430 Dollars) This came with everything need to overhaul the system, Will install it tonight. then it is just 2 bushings on top of the differential and the rear end is DONE. He has not told me final cost on rear end rebuild but hopefully it will be right around 600...
New rear coil spings (70 Dollars) and there is a difference for convert and coup. Those rubber bushings that go onto of the springs were like 30 Dollars for the pair on the rear and equally expensive for the fronts. 
Got new 250LBS to 300LBS springs for the front. (120 Dollars)
New upper and lower A Arms (500 dollars)
Rebuilt Transmission (1250 Dollars) This dude though I was crazy rebuilding a 2 speed ST300 Transmission. And to boot he seems to have lost the torque converter and I can not find another one. 
Sway Bar was sand blasted and just painted.
New Sway bar bushings and stabilizers (30 Dollars)
New Tierods, center link Ideler arm and pitman Arm (300 Dollars)
New Power Steering Gear Box I got so lucky and found one on Craigslist for (200 Dollars) It was New Old Stock....
Front Disk brake conversion with matching Master Cylinder (480 Dollars)
Front and rear shocks (100 Dollars)
Fuel Lines and brake Lines (300 Dollars)

I am missing all sorts of bolts and clips and dont even know what I need yet on this front. 

I am kinda of excited to merry up this transmission and engine together. Just have to find this ST300 torque converter. there is one on eBay but I am not entirely sure if it will work for me. Apparently there are differences because Pontiacs are externally balanced. So this Torque converter has external weights and tabs on it.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

So I kn ow the economy is getting bad because the body shop called me and asked for some money because he has been carrying my project for a while. I reminded him of the completion date of three weeks that was over a year ago. He acquessed. Told me 4 weeks. 

So today he sent me me pictures of the powder coated frame and the install of all the new crap I gave him 

I have not seen it physically yet. But looks like he has the control arms upper and lower mounted, springs, shocks, tie rods, rotors, sway bar, steering box, the steering linkage all mounted up. 

The he texted me couple of hours later and told me there was a problem with the upper rear trailing arm. the one I gave him was too short. 

I guess there are two types. One is shorter than the other. I started calling around and all I could find was the 10 3/8 center on center ones. apparently mine needs the 11 3/16 ones. He managed to source some for a 100 dollars. I found them on ebay for 80 but not sure of the length and he said these arms are real the only thing holding the chassis tot he the Axel and he needed them to move forward on the car. He said he count powder coat them but he would sand them up real nice and paint them. 

I also just realized that we did not fill the differential with gear oil. We are not running it or pushing it around yet so I will fill it with I think 80/90 Lucas or Royal purple on Monday when I drop off more parts. 

I could not find the rear backing plate replacement for the front drums. I found some cruddy used ones and after thinking it through I thought it was stupid to sink that much coin into the front brakes where a disk conversion would be far super and just about 50 dollars more. But that changed my brake lines. I still have to get those and will buy them this weekend.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Convertible body flexing too much with out the frame under it. So they mounted the frame tot he body and will paint it together, Not separately like I thought. 

I picked up the engine from storage and finished bolting everything on it. I am not sure if I will drop it off like this or pull the stuff hanging off, off of it to make it easier to install. 

I have never had this engine fully assembled and did not have a lot of the accessory components. 

The power setting set up was a pain to source correctly. The brackets are hard to source and quite expensive. The belts are also had to figure out. 

So on the tempest assembly manual it shows the set up one way and the gto restoration guide show the setup yet another way. On power steering cars with out ac non tripower... the belts are exact replicas of one another. Your power steering pulley and alternator pulley are double groves and both groves go around the crank, water pump, alternator, and power steering pump according to the tempest manual. Then there are 2 top brackets for the alternator. 

On the resoration guide it shows the alternator with single pulley and power steering pump with single pulley. 

Then the 1st belt goes crank , water pump, alternator, and second belt goes crank , water pump, power steering pump.

Power steering pump was a pint to find at a reasonable price. And a lot of them had the new resiviour. I winded up buying a used resivour and just seating the new pump into it. I am just hoping the seals dont leak. A proper cap for that pump have asking prices of 40 dollars. That power steering pump pulley have asking prices of 60 dollars. the t bracket is like 35 dollars. Also the 2 belts where they cross were very close to rubbing. So the power steering pump was shimmed out about 1/8th of an inch. I think it will be ok now. I need a dipstick and at this point will probably just get a Mr. Gasket one. Also the oil breater and oil filler caps are extremely expensive for what they are. Anyone else doing it should find the valve covers that only have 1 hole. These covers both had holes and then there is a plug for the passenger side one. I have been some that have a pipe going to the air cleaner but by air cleaner does not have a hole for the insert. So I figured to just put a breather right off the valve cover. Not sure how or if it will even effect performance. 

I will build a custom wooden stand for it this week and bold up the torque converter and transmission to it so it can be dropped in as a single unit. 

I know the alternator pulley is not supposed to be black. But after sand blasting it looked terrible so I went ahead and had it powder coated with he rest of the pulleys. 

I really want to just get this thing back together


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

What a rough year I had in 2020. Some of it my own doing. I woke up one morning and stumbled backwards into a Dodge Charger.. So of course I bought it. It wound up having lots of quarky little issues we have been trying to sort our. But dont worry.. I am still a Pontiac man. Mopars are just not easy to work on.

So I just got a text from the body shop telling me the car was finally painted. He sent me these three photos and I got super excited. Then he asked me to drop off all that I have so they can get this thing back together and I turned white. My parts are scattered all over and I never got around to actually restoring some of them. So now I am in a scramble. 

I need some guidance on the torque converter, flex plate, and transmission mount. I did not take it apart and did not see how it came apart. I was hoping one of the more seasoned guys here (ehem PONTIAC JIM) can set me straight. I am going to my folks place where I have stored the engine to take pictures of the parts that are there. I will post those in a few hours. The shop manual I have is very detailed on the rebuild of the transmissions but I can not find anything in it on the order of these washers and this spacer in there. Because my garage is filled to the hilt with crap the more of the car the guy puts together the better. I just dont have the room. So something like the engine I would like him to do.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Pretty straight forward on the flexplate parts - shim, flexplate, bolts/star(lock) washers. Trans mount should also be straight forward and be shown in the shop manual.

Here is a good explanation of the flexplate parts and how they go on. 









Flexplate / flywheel


Well, I had a nightmare last night.... I dreamed I installed the flywheel/ flex plate backwards.... The engine is in and the starter looks a little away from the flywheel teeth....Good thing is I haven't gotten too far with the install to take it back out if necessary. my question is; the...




www.gtoforum.com





I do not know what the "bolt plate" is, but sounds almost similar to the shim plate, but on the converter side and under the heads of the flexplate bolts. I don't recall these on 1968 and up on the cars I did, just the shim plate. So if you find one, then use it, if not, I would think you can still bolt down the flexplate without it. Here is another post from PY which goes into the crank side plate - and it doesn't look like you need it if you don't have it. I do recall the crankshaft bolts & star type lock washers.

Flex Plate re-enforcing plate - PY Online Forums - Bringing the Pontiac Hobby Together 

I also included the AMES catalog page mentioned which show the flywheel and flexplate bolts.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Ok so here is the actual flex plate. So When I picked up the engine the guy gave me this plate 6 bolts and that smaller circular plate. The smaller circular plate is concave and not flat. On the flex plate there is an imprint on plex plate of where it was fastened. I am guessing that this is some type of strengthening plate, or a spacer. I am guessing that the smaller concave circular plate faces the torque converter. But I can not find it in any documentation. I am pretty sure it goes like this because the flex plate has an indentation that lines up with the smaller circular concave plate. 

If you guys saw my driveway and all the crap in my garage you would understand why I want him to drop it in. I dont want to pull the motor out later to correct this if i get it wrong. I just dont have space.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

So i had a very hard time finding the correct torque converter for this thing. I was told this transmission was the one with a varible pitch stator but it wasnt. If anyone cares the 2 speed auto in the gto was a variation if the ST300 and there were two versions. The way to tell the difference externally is the electrical plug on the side. If it has one prong it does not have the variable pitch stator , if it has two prongs it does have the varible pitch stator. The flex plate was different on the non varible pitch transmission. The 3 mounting holes are further out and luckily for me offer more options for better torque converters. Elected to go with a 1800 to 2000 stall converter.
Care has been painted and is going to start being put back together in the next 2 weeks


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Looking good. Just takes time on such a big project build.

The ST300 used by Pontiac is a Buick transmission, as you found out. The switch pitch converter was used by Buick. Pontiac did not use it. The switch pitch was also used on the Buick ST400 and TH-400. My 1954 Buick had this feature, it was called a variable pitch converter.

The kickdown for the Pontiac ST300 trans is electric and is operated by a switch found on/near the carb linkage - as I recall, as other members have had it missing or had problems finding an original replacement. So make sure you have this or your trans won't operate correctly. Your service manual may show it and how to adjust it.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Been a while-- So COVID knocked out the body shop employee and half his guys quit. The guys he has hired are more expensive and the second car he originally told me he would do for 16 is no longer a good price He said it will be more like 30. 

Anyway he is finally putting mine together. And now I am the hold up because I am missing a bunch of stuff. 

So he has the body on the frame with all the new body mounts and the engine and trans in. Heater box and heater core installed. 

The remaining chrome was supposed to be dropped off this Saturday past but the guy could not make it up from LA and said he will be up this week. 

I am close to being done. 

I have a question. The windshield wiper motor. It lookalike there are 2 - a single speed unit and a 2 speed unit. If I get the 2 speed and the wire harness and swith only supports the single speed. can I use the 2 speed version


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Coming along


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Coming along


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Ok we are stuck on something very simple but I can not find the gasket for it. The Vent window... What is the gasket called that secures the glass to the frame. Not the gasket that allows the window to tilt open, but the gasket that secures the glass to the Frame.... I can not seem to find it anywhere.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

tonyskala said:


> View attachment 148651
> 
> 
> Ok we are stuck on something very simple but I can not find the gasket for it. The Vent window... What is the gasket called that secures the glass to the frame. Not the gasket that allows the window to tilt open, but the gasket that secures the glass to the Frame.... I can not seem to find it anywhere.



Isn't this it?









Seal, Vent Window, 1964-65 GM "A" Body Coupe/Convertible @ OPGI.com


These exact reproductions are factory injection-molded rubber with original style steel insert cores. Nothing is left to compromise in these precision-engineered reproductions.




www.opgi.com


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

No, thats what I thought and ordered. The gasket I need goes inside the housing that the glass fits into.









That gasket on opgi is the one this whole piece fits into. The one I need is the gasket that goes around two sides of the glass and then secures the glass into this triangle frame. This gasket will look like a v


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

So the car is coming along but now we are hunting for all the obscure parts.

So right now our issue is this door glass and the bottom door sash
I will post in next post


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)




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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Ok so here is my issue and i cant figure this all out. I need one of you guys to help me out with this. So the door glass was ordered a year ago. The glass came and no issue with windshild, or rear quarter or vent glass. But the left and right side glass is causing some issues. The old glass has 3 holes in the bottom. The new glass does not. So the body guy could not figure it out and I took it to a glass shop. The glass shop is telling me the glass is correct but the bottom sash is wrong. But the car had the sash that allows it to bolt through the window. 

On Franks Pontiac web site I see what looks like my lower window sash and I see another that looks different. 

here is what my sash looks like.










Thick and has three holes that bolts can go through the windows to fasten it. But it says they were pulled from a 65, but says it is applicable to 64 and 65

My windows look like these but those bottom sashes don't look anything like mine. It appears my windows are held in with glue in the channel into these sashes. 










So What I want to know is can I get the 65 glass and will it in the 64. 

I looked in the shop manual and it is of no use. Some please help me out. Or if anyone has those 64 sashes let me know. Do they work with the remainder of the mechanism.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

So this never seems to end. I dont get as much of a response since the new forum format but I am hoping someone can help me on this. So after about 2 years I have finally got the chrome back. I sorted thorugh the window issues, and now we are stuck on this piece of trim. I am missing 3 pieces of trim. Top of the driver door and the left and right side of this piece. I think it is called the A pillar outer reveal molding. It hold the gasket in for the door. Anyway the chromer swears he doesnt have it and the assembly guys swears he donest have it. If anyone knows what this piece is and has a set please please shoot me a message. I am so close to being done but just stuck on this dumb stuff.


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## trailerjack (May 16, 2021)

Love the color with the wheel combo! Very sharp!


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

So if anyone cares.. This rims are actually VISION Rims. They were made under license by Hurst. But.... Vision did not want to pay licensing any longer so the center caps no longer have the Hurst Logo on it. Because they stopped making them the larger 16 and 17 rims are all sold out. You can still get the 15 inch rims but they are getting harder to find. 

Unfort I am not happy with the stance of the car but the car has not been this far along in over 30 years and when I got it is had 4 tires that were all different sizes. The shocks, springs, bushings were all shot and I did not know how the car would sit. 

So my current plan is get it home finish putting it together and drive it a few hundred miles hoping it will settle. If it still rides to high in the front I will probably get some lowering springs to level it out. 

What I really need now are those trim moldings on the door.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

So after 4 years I finally picked it up and there is still a ton of work left. I have to be honest I dont know that I would ever do another restoration like this. It took way too long and I spent way more than I originally budgeted. I still have a lot left. 

The 2nd steering coupler I got doesnt fit so there is no steering on the car. and it was more than a pain to load it on the trailer. Brake lines need to be hooked up, Wiper motor, wipers, complete wire harness, felts for the windows, top needs to be put on, pumps hooked up, car, fittings, fuses, light bubs... The list goes on and on. I am overwhelmed with the list and my wife is still upset with me becau
se I have not finished our master bedroom bath....... I honestly was feeling pretty down but when I was picking up my son from day care because picking the car up took all day and I was almost late I caught someone really staring it down and they asked me if it was mine... I could tell he wanted to talk to me about the car but I was in such a mood he just asked me after the 3 question and m half assed responses if i wanted to sell it.... I felt a little better because the damn thing is special...But still I dont think a restoration like this is something I would do again.


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

This car has been pissing in my face for the past 4.5 years and taking money out of my wallet at every turn. Finally started up after 50 years of sitting idle. This car has taken me over 4 years to get back on the road and about double my projected budget. Already mentioned but the motor has all 8 cylinders sleeved and the block is now .030 over. Points have been swapped out for a Petronix ignition. The calling system has been upgraded to a cooler master electronically controlled system. Voltage regulator is eltetronic, and the starter has been upgraded to a power master high torque one. Aside from that the motor is exactly like it left the factory in 1964. 

Oh I am having trouble finding a kick down module for it. I am not sure how it works. Does anyone one have one and want to sell it?


1964 Pontiac GTO 389 4 Barrel 1st Startup in 50 Years!!!!


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Man another saga. So we filled the transmission with fluid. Started it up and it spewed fluid all over the place. It isnt over filled and there is no forward gear. It looks like it is leaking from the top. I think something is pushing the fluid out


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## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

Transmission still not cooperating. I think the pump might be toasted. Top is supposed to go on this week.


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## Scott06 (May 6, 2020)

tonyskala said:


> Transmission still not cooperating. I think the pump might be toasted. Top is supposed to go on this week.
> View attachment 157545


Been driving my 65 with no top for several years now , not like im going out in the rain anyways…


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