# 69 build date...



## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Hey all,

I'm looking to buy new belts for my 69 GTO (ALT, PS and A/C). I'm having an issue getting the right ones. Two guys at Summit couldn't find the right ones... NAPA doesn't carry them and on the Ames Performance site (they offer them) they ask if my car was built in 3rd quarter 68 or 1st quarter 69. It was built in 2nd quarter (May) of 69 (05A) according to the data plate.

It has an early 11 bolt water pump (4" shaft length) and corresponding pulley(s), 400 block and automatic transmission.

So, my question is: Which date do I select on the Ames site? Are they asking if it was build 1st quarter or later in 69? I'd ask them but they close at 3pm today and won't be open until Monday and I can't wait that long. :laugh:

Thanks in advance, Dan


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I don't know why that would make a difference unless for some reason there was a pulley size difference, different brackets, or if there is a difference in the position of the power steering pump shaft - some are centered and some are off set, so this may make a slight difference. It might also be that the belts they were looking to send are made to look original and they wanted to get the correct dates on them for your car's correct build period/month. (this is how they are listed in the OPGI catalog per selection of date codes)

Can't you take your old belts down to NAPA, or any parts store, and have them measure it? 

The OPGI catalog offers correct OEM reproductions with date codes on them. They don't list sizes but, the AC belt is the same for 1966-1969, the P/S belt with AC is the same for 1967-1969, and the Alt belt with P/S and AC is the same for 1968-1969 if that helps any.

I had best results with the Dayco brand on my '68. At high RPM's, I used to flip/toss the NAPA belts (which I think were Gates at the time) regularly. Went to the Dayco with the cogs on top, and never had to replace another belt.

Look at RockAuto here, scroll down a bit, and it lists what the belt fits and its length. It may give you an idea of what you need? Scroll down a bit to get to the belts. RockAuto Parts Catalog


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

If you've got the 4" pump, then I'd go with "early". All this madness comes from the fact that part way through the 69 model year, Pontiac switched from the short snout 4" pump to the standard 4.5" snout. You'll find quite a few different water pump pulleys in the factory parts book just for that reason: short snout pump, long snout pump, original short snout car that has been replaced with a long snout pump... Also as I recall there were different pulley diameters for a/c vs non-a/c. cars, or perhaps there were different pulleys for Ram Air IV due to expected higher rpms... getting everything right on the accessory drive system on a 69 is at least as much fun as aligning an Endura bumper :banghead:

Something you might try. Assemble the drive system without any belts, position the various adjustments so that they're close to the middle of their adjustment range, then take some fat (maybe 1/2") rope and thread it around each drive and measure the length needed. Go to the Gates web site and find their belt catalog. You should be able to find which of their part numbers correspond closely to the lengths you measure. Once you have that number, you can either buy their belts or use the part numbers to cross-reference to whichever manufacturer you prefer. You might even bracket your measurements and buy the size indicated, plus the next one larger and the next one smaller to find out which one fits your car the best. Most places will allow you to return unused new belts. It's a pain to get right the first time, but once you do you should be set.

Heaven help you if you go down the path that I did and decide you want to run an SFI-rated balancer on an original early production 'short snout' car that has A/C...

Bear


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Thanks Guys!!!

When I take it all apart for the timing gear/chain HB replacement I'll measure and take them to a local joint and research the pulley I have... which is another thing adding to the confusion. Knowing there was a difference in water pumps (thanks PontiacJim) one guy said to just switch to the 4.5". I told him no because it's not that simple (because I had read about all the different pulley applications (stock, long, short, smaller/larger for higher or lower flow etc etc) so I wanted to stay with the 4" pump. 

Since it is currently working I'm on the lookout for a place to rebuild mine in the winter and next month the Pontiac National event here will have lots and lots of used parts vendors at the swap meet.

Thanks again guys, I appreciate it very much!

Dan


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

dan woodland said:


> Thanks Guys!!!
> 
> When I take it all apart for the timing gear/chain HB replacement I'll measure and take them to a local joint and research the pulley I have... which is another thing adding to the confusion. Knowing there was a difference in water pumps (thanks PontiacJim) one guy said to just switch to the 4.5". I told him no because it's not that simple (because I had read about all the different pulley applications (stock, long, short, smaller/larger for higher or lower flow etc etc) so I wanted to stay with the 4" pump.
> 
> ...


The pulley thing is a dance on these cars, I was told the 6 1/2" pulley on my car wasn't the right one and that it took an 8" pulley.
They were all wrong the '67 with A/C did use this pulley Part #9788886 and they are listed as out of stock everywhere.
I did manage to buy one after weeks of searching but I had to go old school and get on the phone.
An old guy in Pa. that doesn't use the internet had one.
Ebay was useless since most of the ads just said GTO pulley with no dimensions or part number.

This is what I was able to find everywhere, not available.


WATER PUMP PULLEY
1967-69 Pontiac V8 (exc. 326)
GM Part #9788886
(6 1/2" diameter / 2" deep)
$75.00
(2-Groove w/Air Conditioning)
NOT AVAILABLE

If I didn't have the original bent one to get the part# from I would have never found it.


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Thanks for the info Goat Roper! Because the difficulty I've had finding parts and finding out mine didn't have a the "right" part on it already I've started to collect some of the proper parts just in case they become hard to find, like this whole water pump pulley thing!

When I take mine apart I'll research the part numbers to make sure I have the right one then find spares... I don't want to be in this situation again. It's interesting and even a bit fun going through this BUT I'd rather be driving her! :thumbsup:


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

dan woodland said:


> Thanks for the info Goat Roper! Because the difficulty I've had finding parts and finding out mine didn't have a the "right" part on it already I've started to collect some of the proper parts just in case they become hard to find, like this whole water pump pulley thing!
> 
> When I take mine apart I'll research the part numbers to make sure I have the right one then find spares... I don't want to be in this situation again. It's interesting and even a bit fun going through this BUT I'd rather be driving her! :thumbsup:


I don't have the guys number, it is in my notes somewhere but I got it from Percy.

Percy's Pontiac Parts

The guy has been collecting pulleys for years stripping them off cars in junkyards and has hundreds of them.
In his words if he doesn't have it then it wasn't made.

I was looking for an interim engine to run in my car for the summer while mine is being rebuilt and the pulley and bracket dance is the main reason I gave up on the idea.

Happy hunting, finding Pontiac parts isn't a job it is an adventure.
:lol:


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

dan woodland said:


> Thanks Guys!!!
> 
> When I take it all apart for the timing gear/chain HB replacement I'll measure and take them to a local joint and research the pulley I have... which is another thing adding to the confusion. Knowing there was a difference in water pumps (thanks PontiacJim) one guy said to just switch to the 4.5". I told him no because it's not that simple (because I had read about all the different pulley applications (stock, long, short, smaller/larger for higher or lower flow etc etc) so I wanted to stay with the 4" pump.
> 
> ...


Dan, the reason Ames was asking for a date built for your car doesn't have anything to do with any change in wp pulley, Ames is selling Quanta's embossed date coded belts, have been buying Quanta's belts for years. 

The early vs late "69" waterpump issue.
For ''69 models, Pontiac A-B-F-G series with Pontiac V8's ALL originally used the "351" casting 11 bolt waterpump with the short hub. Once the '70 models started rolling out, in late August of '69, the first tall waterpumps, the "124" castings, were used. The "124"s were used on all '70 V8 Pontiacs. The confusion with the terminology, ie; "early" and "late"' '69 waterpumps stems from one thing, and that is the '69 Firebirds continued to be produced for several months, up into late Nov of '69, and as V8 builds were produced with the "351" short hub casting pump. 

Have extensively studied this and come to the conclusion, the reason the '69 V8 Bird continued with the short hub pump is directly tied to tight clearance issues with the 5 blade flex fan and matching alum fan spacer. Attempting to substitute the taller "124" pump, the fan is jambed very close to the V8 Firebirds radiator. This wasn't an issue in any other body style Pontiac in '69-72, as the fans shrouds were very deep. To further confuse issues, Pontiac began offering the tall 11 bolt waterpumps to replace the original "351" pumps, but this required buying the correct waterpump pulley through the parts dept Ck any original '71 and later dated master parts books and there were notations to use such and such pulley when substituting the taller waterpump. 

Original Pontiac pulleys, brackets, complete Ps changeovers, have 3/4 of a pallet rack section dedicated to just pulleys and brackets. have been putting together and supplying 11 bolt waterpump pullley changeovers for the last 23 years. Ship out several clean original pulleys each month.

Needing an original waterpump rebuilt, I usually do 4 to 6 runs per year and am very price competitive and only use the best bearing inserts and seals in the rebuild process. Have a decent stock of clean original early Pontiac v8 WP cores along with usuall a dozen or two dated correct castings for '68 to 72 models. Do quite a few outright sales of rebuilt pumps. Only set back I occasionally run into is keeping correct cast impellers in stock. There are five different style cast impellers used for all the different '63-81 Pontiac V8 waterpumps, and if a restorer has a certain pump and it has a stamped steel impeller in it, occasionally, I don't have a core I can rob the correct style cast impeller out of. In that case, will let the restorer know, when I get the correct impeller in, and then they can ship in their pump, so there is no lag time of me setting on their pump. Tentatively, have 7 original pumps on the rebuild list for next month, feel free and PM for any needs.


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Goat Roper said:


> The pulley thing is a dance on these cars, I was told the 6 1/2" pulley on my car wasn't the right one and that it took an 8" pulley.
> They were all wrong the '67 with A/C did use this pulley Part #9788886 and they are listed as out of stock everywhere.
> I did manage to buy one after weeks of searching but I had to go old school and get on the phone.
> An old guy in Pa. that doesn't use the internet had one.
> ...


Always have several "886" waterpump pullys in stock, have never sold one for over $50 and they are clean Southwest parts.

Last but not least, the above source is wrong. Just because someone puts a part up on their website, or on eBay, and misidentifys its application, does not make the application true!

The "886" AC application Pontiac v8 wp pulley was NEVER used on an original '69 Pontiac V8. It was instead used with preceding '68 models and some '67 models which both still used the 8 bolt style Pontiac V8 water pump and matching for that year application timing cover.


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Thanks guys!

I appreciate it!

Pinion Head I'll be in touch in the future. 

I found a guy in Iowa who has been collecting parts for his whole life. If the contact works out I'll share the information.

Dan


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