# Swapping '72 455 into '69 350 LeMans



## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

So since my research thread "350 Compression" is done and I went with the 455 I thought I'd start a new thread to cover the swap. It will be over the course of a winter, but most likely longer, as I have two little kids that take a lot of attention. 
So I'd like to start with the basic first question. With a 2 car garage and no other means of lifting the car other than putting it on some jack stands, do I pull the tranny with the engine and put the engine and trans back in together or do I separate them? I've never attempted an engine swap and need to know what I'm in for. It's a TH350 on the 350 right now and will be the TH350 on the 455 when I'm done. I plan on new engine mounts and headers...I guess that's another question. Can I get the headers on with the engine and trans in place?
Thanks guys and I can't wait to get this ball rolling! :grin2:


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I've never been successful at re-installing the engine and transmission as a unit. Just my experience, your mileage may vary.

My son and I spent a couple hours trying to do that on my 69, and that was with all of the front-end sheet metal off the car. We gave up and split them, installed the tranny first then the engine --- took a grand total of about 30 minutes for both.

Make sure you support the rear of the engine and the front of the transmission before you split them, once you do there'll be nothing supporting either one at those points otherwise.

Yes, you can install headers with the engine in the car. The trick is to remove the long motor mount bolt on the passenger side first, use a floor jack to lift that side of the engine and tilt it over to get some room, then install that header (from the top). Lower, re-install the bolt, then lather-rinse-repeat for the drivers side. Tip: replace the end bolts with studs. This way if you ever have to R&R the header or even just loosen it to get room to work on something else, you'll have something to "hang" it on during reinstallation which will make getting the rest of the bolts started MUCH easier.

Bear


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Well thanks Bear...not exactly what I was hoping to hear as I do not have a great way to get my car that high off the ground other than floor jacks and stands but I'll make due if it truly is the easiest way.
Thanks for the header tip too! Parts are on their way! woo


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## Frank R (Nov 25, 2016)

If you want to remove and install the engine and transmission as one unit this tool is a must. Jack the front of the car up to allow enough room for the transmission to tilt down. As you pull the engine forward and the transmission clears the firewall level it out and raise it enough for the oil pan to clear the radiator support. Take in account that if you raise the car too high you will need additional room to clear a garage door openings. 
I just installed the engine and trans in my 67 as one unit using this tool. Easiest engine installation that I've ever done. I was able to sit the engine at a perfect height where the motor mount bolts screwed right in by hand. Then I tilted the trans up a bit and slid the cross member in place Well worth the $50 price.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Ah yes I've seen some shows use those I just assumed they were out of my price range. $50 isn't too bad for an easier installation and I can just sell it when done I guess. Thanks Frank


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Using Frank's hoist tool may well solve your dilemma with pulling and installing your engine and tranny as a single unit. Note that Frank did this with his '67 GTO and that worked well. You have a '69 body style as does Bear (who is VERY experienced and a person I rely on for good advice). It may be that the '69 body has different front end dimensions as opposed to the '67 so do take lots of measurements and approach this with caution as well as safety. I was able to swap in a Chev 350 and TH350 as a unit into '65 Studebaker but the jack stands were fully extended front and rear and the cherry picker almost touched the ceiling to angle the engine/trans unit into the car. We took a bunch of measurements beforehand and were glad we did.

Best of luck with your swap! When you get it altogether and all the bugs worked out you will be a happy guy....455's ROCK!>


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Duly noted! I'll be sure to take measurements and chat more when the time comes. As for now I ordered my SMI Quadrajet! 800 CFM Stage 2 electric choke. I have to wait 7-8 weeks to touch it though....living in MN I guess that doesn't really matter because I have about 5 months of downtime ahead of me haha.


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Even with the best of engine tilters its going to be near impossible to install the engine & turbo350 over the top of a '68-72 Pontiac Abody V8 core support, & then get the transmission tail housing down & keep from dragging the front of the engine on top of the core support. On engine installs, much easier to drop the engine in with a cherry picker/ overhead trolley, etc, then install the transmission from underneath with an affordable floorjack & small square piece of wood. if you have access to a transmission jack adaptor, even easier. After the engine & transmission is in, can attach engine accessories to front of the engine, then carefully work the large fan shroud down behind the radiator being carefull as the lwr shroud & rubber insulators tuck in under the radiator.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

I raced my '69 GTO between 1973 & 1988. Pulled & installed the engine/trans together probably dozens of times. I used an overhead chain falls type hoist. Used a short piece of chain, from the driver side rear to the pass side front of engine. I set the amount of tilt by inserting a screwdriver in the correct chain link. Also pulled & installed 'em together in 1st & 2nd gen Birds, with the same set-up. 

Yeah, strictly "shade tree" type stuff. Hey, I had nobody to teach me. Had to learn by trial and lots of errors. And most of the time, had no help. But hey, I was young & I loved racing. So, I just kept at it 'til I learned enuff to build the cars, win some races, and have LOTS of fun. :smile3:


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Well lots of conflicting thoughts here. I do not have access to an overhead hoist nor is my garage set up for such a thing. Looks like I'll just have to buy another set of floor jacks and get the car up enough to get to the trans from below and separate the two because if I can't get it out with the hood off and radiator and stuff out of the way I might as well split them. Will the water pump already being installed on the 455 cause me issues putting it back in? PH mentions putting accessories on after its in...


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...I do not have access to an overhead hoist nor is my garage set up for such a thing..."


I no longer have access to the overhead hoist either. But, I recently pulled a 455/long tail TH400 together, out of a '74 Ventura, using a portable engine crane on wheels. Sometimes these are called shop cranes, engine hoists, or other similar names.

1 Ton Capacity Foldable Shop Crane


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Yea I am borrowing an engine hoist from a friend to do this project and that is exactly what I was hoping to be able to do. I just don't have a ceiling hoist or ability to install one in my garage.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

KowalskiCW said:


> Duly noted! I'll be sure to take measurements and chat more when the time comes. As for now I ordered my SMI Quadrajet! 800 CFM Stage 2 electric choke. I have to wait 7-8 weeks to touch it though....living in MN I guess that doesn't really matter because I have about 5 months of downtime ahead of me haha.


See that you got your Q-jet from Sean Murphy. I've heard he does really good Q-jet work so you won't go wrong with this choice:smile3:


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Yea my buddy with a 67 Chevelle 427 recommended him. He got one and said it was totally plug and play after fully describing everything to Sean, he built it to exact specs for his engine. So I had a long conversation with Sean myself and expect the same results! Pretty excited.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

I plan on following your thread as I have similar problems with having to save up to do stuff. My wife has been supportive and is the family CFO (although if the GTO had cost $1000 instead of $XXXXX with no further work needed, she would be much happier). We moved this past summer and I lost my good garage with the engine hoist. This "new" house (built 1972) is so much better but we had to spend $XXXX to enclose the carport into a garage for my father-in-law's car (and the GTO).

Anyway progress proceeds at a slow rate but we'll both get there eventually. Best of luck with your 455 swap:thumbsup:!!!


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Your situation sounds very familiar! Fortunately I am the CFO in this situation but it still doesn't make it much easier haha. The ladies just don't understand we need projects like this or we'll die! 
Good luck on yours as well. I'm finding my 2 car garage with all my crap and an extra motor on a stand is NOT big enough because she doesn't want to load kids in the snow and has to have part of the garage! blasphemy! Time to move


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

KowalskiCW said:


> Your situation sounds very familiar! Fortunately I am the CFO in this situation but it still doesn't make it much easier haha. The ladies just don't understand we need projects like this or we'll die!
> Good luck on yours as well. I'm finding my 2 car garage with all my crap and an extra motor on a stand is NOT big enough because she doesn't want to load kids in the snow and has to have part of the garage! blasphemy! Time to move


I hear you on the move.............but with our luck,the move money comes out of the car fund (ask me how I know this). Understand the partial garage thing, too. "The ladies just don't understand we need projects like this or we'll die!"---a very true quote!!!

Our move took up almost a year what with the carport enclosure and having to work on the old house for re-sale = no GTO time. The folks I bought it from were a very young married couple who had a GTO father who encouraged them to have one. However they found the GTO wasn't fun and wanted an iconic mid '60's Mustang convertible---lucky for me as the GTO was one of two colors I wanted (blue or red) and had the parchment interior. Paint (PPG Deltron) had been done in '09 with the interior (all glass out, fenders, hood and trunk lid, bumpers, etc., removed and stripped and re-done on a CA body) they had photos.:smile3: They were from Idaho having been transferred here. The restoration guy is/was in Idaho. He did the engine which is a '69 Grand Prix 428 (PO thought it was a 455----only if a 455 rotating assembly was put in it which I doubt), and TH400. Don't know yet if the rear end is 1968 GTO or 1969 Grand Prix. When I'm not doing for my family, I'm trying to discover what I have mechanically. The engine should have the 11 bolt water pump/timing cover but has the 8 bolt ('68 and earlier) and mid '70's 6X4 heads. Friend says cam sounds like a "RV" but I don't know the specs. They gave me the Idaho guy's email but he has never responded. My CFO doesn't want me tearing it down to find out what's inside the engine so I have a dilemma. I'm glad you know what your engine is inside. Mine may have been quality (or not) rebuilt or still 48 year old insides. I've been doing cars since I was 13 and this is the first one I've had with no knowledge of it's past. Sometimes I think of posting the "restorers" name on here and the PY forum to see if someone in Idaho can find him or knows him. Wife said be careful, he is so hard to find on internet he may be hiding, maybe a chop shop owner and we really don't want to know.:surprise: The PO couple was above board and the car had legal paperwork (I had the county Sheriff's auto theft unit check it and car out before buying, so I'm OK there). This old car thing is SO much fun.>


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Alright so everyone has been saying my TH350 might not hold up with a 455 mildly built so I have been looking into used TH400s and found this TH400 BOP
Cheap $150 shift kit and torque converter included in it. I haven't inquired yet but my question is...switching between the two what will I have to change? Driveshaft length? Anything with the shift linkage? Crossmember? I think for $150 this is a great buy to make sure I plant that power to the ground but need to know what else is going to go along with it.
Thanks guys!


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

So I'm really trying to get this trans thing nailed down. I've done a bunch of searching and yes the TH400 swap will need several different things, like cross member, trans mount, driveshaft and yolk swaps. Now I've been reading and wondering should I just rebuild my TH350 and make it a little beefier and save the costs of the swap? Lots of people say the 350 shifts crisper and faster than the 400 and can handle a good amount of torque if using the updated hardened sprag. I could get the trans rebuilt for about 300 and have that sprag put in...will it last with a mild 455 thats maybe pushing 450ft lbs? Any thoughts would help. The TH400 for $150 is probably gonna go fast so I need to make up my mind.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"... Lots of people say the 350 shifts crisper and faster than the 400 and can handle a good amount of torque if using the updated hardened sprag..."


I've never heard that a TH350 shifts quicker. It depends on how they are built. 

The weak part of the TH350 is actually not the sprag. It's the outer race for the sprag. My bracket 455 broke a stock race, then broke a TCI hardened race. With sticky tires & lots of torque, the TH350 really needs the heavy duty 36 element sprag/drum/race assembly, and a quality build by a TH350 expert. 

The TH400, on the other hand, needs only a 34 element sprag, & a good shift kit & rebuild, to withstand around 500ft lbs of torque. But, if the TH400 was built somewhere around '72 or later, it came with a weak roller clutch, instead of the 16 element sprag that most earlier TH400's had. The 34 element sprag is a simple swap for the early sprag. They actually came in some GM models, including some of the big Cadillac engines, like 472 & 500. 

But, if you have the later version, with the roller clutch, you'll have to swap out the entire sprag/drum/race, with an assembly from an earlier TH400, or a later 4L80E. Ebay always has several of these assemblies, as well as the sprags, separately.

34 element th400 sprag in eBay Motors | eBay


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Ok so I talked to a reputable trans builder in the area and he thinks the th350 might be at its limits for torque if I don't do some serious mods that could end up costing around 900-1200 bucks to rebuild with better parts including a torque converter and such. 

Now the 400...I've been emailing the guy and this is what he said he had it behind *"I don't know exact mileage. It was behind a 455 in my 76 Trans am that has a mid range cam in it and de-smogged. About 360 hp. The previous owner told me it was a trick shift kit brand installed and it does a positive shift that is felt. It shifted great and the fluid was crystal clear when I pulled it. I replaced it with a an overdrive unit after swapping the rear gear for a 3.73 set. It was too short of a gear set on the hi-way without overdrive and minimal exhaust.*" 

The problem is I'd pay $150 for the trans, still need a torque converter then the cross member, drive shaft work, yolk and whatever else which would push me up to about 6-700 total from my estimations. The work behind it is more though. I'm just not sure if I'm being taken or if it could truly cost that much for the 350 and does it really need that much work? He says the sprag isn't a simple thing and that it requires the whole drum and race assembly so that's why it gets so costly.
So is the 400 really the route I should go and just deal with all the work and extra stuff?

BTW I read that TH350 info here https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mus/2005/11/TH350-Transmission-Swap/1281614.html. Takes less HP to rotate therefore quicker to shift I'd believe.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Aaaah, adding more HP & torque, where do we stop at when upgrading the driveline?

The TH-400 you talk of, if I am reading it correctly, is a stock TH-400 with shift kit added. You did not say it has been rebuilt. If not, then what are you really getting, a used TH-400 with a shift kit? Keep in mind that his 76 Trans-Am 455 was rated at 200HP with 7.6 compression. I would be skeptical on his 360HP claim, gaining 160HP from a cam swap alone. However, the right cam would wake up the engine and still give a ton of torque so it seemed like 360HP. Anyway, $150 is still a good deal in my book as a builder or back-up IF you didn't put it in right away.

The TH-350 is lighter, but has potential if its weaknesses are addressed with the quality replacement parts already mentioned by bigD - which means a rebuild in my book. The TH-400 also has its weaknesses that need to be addressed.

I found this posted by a transmission builder/dealer, "I guess there is no "set in stone" point for a TH-350 vs a TH-400 but rather you need to look at the overall combo and goals you have in mind. That said, IMO with bone-stock parts except for maybe the better sprags in each trans, the TH-350 seems to hold in the 500-600 hp area fairly well IMO, unless you try a transbrake. For anything where you need or want a brake the TH-400 is better I believe. I agree with the TH-350 working and living behind some decent power, I have a guy who has a 9-second street/strip car with a 468" motor using one, lol. Of course I have advised him he may be picking up parts one day..." TH350 compared to TH400 notes - Second Generation Camaro Owners Group Message Board *TURBO 350/400 COMPARED
*
You have not told us your plans with the rear-end? If you plan to add posi & wide tires to plant the HP & torque, then you had better figure on keeping a bucket with you to pick up those pieces as well. When you build/add more HP, you have to look at the whole package upgrade as factory stock pieces will only handle so much HP/torque and then you go adding better traction and you have a recipe for disaster. Automatics are less harsh on the driveline, and a single legger rear will allow the tire to go up in smoke taking some of the strain off the driveline as well - things are spinning rather than gripping(traction always seems to find the weak link in the drivetrain that's just waiting to break).

So here is my opinion. Buy the TH-400 for back-up. Keep the TH-350 and run it as is until it blows up -if it blows up. Then install the TH-400(plus the needed parts to install which you have collected along the way) and see if it holds up, run until it too blows up - if it does. Then, if it dies, purchase a rebuilt street/strip trans designed specifically to handle the extra HP/torque OR go with an OD transmission OR have a shop rebuild one of yours to street/strip specs. I would also add a separate transmission cooler as opposed to using the factory radiator ports. Heat kills the transmissions.


Bottom line is that no one knows what to expect if you use either transmission _as is_. If you do it right$$$ the first time, you won't have to do it a second$ or third$ time. I can say that in my younger experiences, I could not afford to do it right$$$ the first time, so I had to go with the low budget second$ & third$ time and didn't mind crawling under the car and getting intimate with the removing and replacing of each transmission. Now older, and having a better budget, I can afford to do it right$$$ and should only be under my car once, and the budget is the ONLY reason I won't have to do it a second or third time, but I would if I had to because the bottom line is driving the car.

Hope that helps you in your decision. :thumbsup:


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

PJ you are wise, but I am like you said, on a budget this time around. I was really hoping just a simple refresh of the TH350 would be good, but this sprag business seems to be where the big $$ thing comes in for rebuild. I know buying used isn't always a smart idea so that's why I'm coming to you guys for thoughts. At this point is there a better option?

So who's to say this guy didn't build a nice 455 in his Firebird and truly have 360hp? I would if I had that car!

So the problem with my TH350 is that I feel it's not doing great to begin with(116k miles). When I shift into drive it clunks a little. When I go from 2nd down to 1st at any speed 5, 10, 15mph it slams pretty hard and sounds like the damn thing is gonna drop out the bottom! haha So I assume it needs a rebuild or I'll be pulling it out after a week. Maybe it's just a bad torque converter? I just don't know enough about transmissions.

So then if I have to rebuild is where I'm stuck...spend 900-1200 on the TH350 and not have to change the driveline or spend maybe 1000 on the TH400 which would include the parts I need to modify the drive-line, but not a rebuild just an inspection and new seals by the same trans guy for 150. Down the road...way down...I'd love to just swap out for a 5-spd hydraulic clutch tranny, but that's another day.

My car right now is 1 wheel wonder with 3.08 gears from what I can tell. I did plan on putting a posi in at some point BUT I never plan on changing from the stock 14x6 tires as I love the stock look of this car. I do not plan on track days or trans braking or anything. Just a nice cruiser that I can burn a little rubber now and then.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Yeah, with a low budget, you really can't be too choosy. 

So, your cheapest route is probably just run your TH350 til it breaks. In the mean time, start looking for other cheap used TH350's, to replace yours, when it goes. If you keep the 1-wheeler & small hard street tires, a stock TH350 might last a while. The 1-2 shift is what causes the race breakage in a TH350, & the sprag breakage in a TH400. A stock shifting type valve body, allows enuff slippage to make a stock TH350 race live. BUT, if you have a valve body, or any other mod, which produces a harder 1-2 shift, the torque of a 455 can break the race. 

For the TH400: My first TH400 was a junkyard long tail model--bought in 1974. I made no mods to it. Just did not hook up the vac line to the vac modulator. It shifted just fine. It was in a '68 Bird, which we ran on the strip, in E/SA class. The car ran high 12's and won lots of races. Had no problems with the trans at all. BUT, the engine was a 400, not a 455. As I've probably already mentioned, the sprag/race breakage began when I switched to a 455 engine. 500ft lbs of torque is hard on the sprag/race during the 1-2 shift. 

RPM is no problem. My first TH350 was bought out of an 11 sec Nova, when he decided to switch to a Glide. The trans ran just fine in the Nova. BUT, it had a high rpm sbc engine, which had nowhere near 500ft lbs of torque--probably less than 400, at the shift rpm. My 455 broke the race first time on the track. Then broke the TCI hardened race, the next time on the track. 

SO, again, it's a combination of big torque & sticky tires that breaks the sprag/race. EXACTLY how long any TH350 or TH400 will last, in your car, is not something anybody can predict. Almost without fail, every time I've ever mentioned some problem or parts failure I've experienced, some guys will post that they used the same parts for years, and never had any problems or failures, at all. So, RESULTS COULD VARY !


"...Takes less HP to rotate therefore quicker to shift I'd believe."

The TH350 is lighter, overall. The rotating assembly is lighter, therefore will require less power to turn. But, as for the quickness of the shift, that will depend on the build of the particular trans. The quickness or harshness of the shift, is determined by the build. A good trans builder can "adjust" the shift characteristics, to what you desire. A softer shift will allow more clutch slippage which will wear the clutches quicker. A firmer shift will wear the clutches less, but will be harder on the sprag/race, and everything else. 

One way to make a stock TH350 race last, is to NOT make any WOT 1-2 shifts. wait til it's in 2nd gear, THEN nail it. Hey, you can burn rubber, from a stop, if you'd like, but then back off, for a softer 1-2 shift. Unhooking the kickdown cable MIGHT also prolong the life of a TH350. Can't see how a WOT downshift could help a trans any. Seems like life would be more fun with plenty of money to spend on fun toys.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

So my trans currently shifts totally fine when I manually shift from 1-2 and 2-3 with flooring it. The scary clunk is when I'm going lest say 10mph and manually move from 2nd down to 1st. It's a scary hard clunk. Any ideas? 3rd to 2nd seems to be fine but I don't do that much.

I guess I'm starting to be ok with the idea of running the TH350 til it breaks BUT is there anything I can do while its out(for the engine swap) that can help improve the life? For $150 I can have it inspected and new seals and filter at least. But is the torque converter shot? Is there something else causing the extreme hard shifting when down shifting? I just hate going around a corner at 10mph and having it stay in 2nd gear and getting nothing out of the hole on the turn because I don't think my kickdown is hooked up as it is. It's never kicked down on its own. I've always had to manually do it.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I think bigD has covered it with his personal experience. It's a crap shoot unless you plan on spending the dollars to get exactly what you need - but I think we all understand the budget crisis as we have all been there.

Not knowing your car, are you 100% sure the "clunk" is the transmission?? The factory single legger rear in my '68 Lemans had a lot of play - way more than I would have liked and it made a clunk due to all the slop when you let off the gas and hit it hard again, but my thinking was when it blows, I'll worry about replacing it. Did not stop me from hammering on it and it never did blow up. Easy enough to check by simply rotating the driveshaft back and forth with the trans in neutral, or once you drop the driveshaft rotate the pinion on the rear-end. Could even be a universal joint or combination of both. So I would check this. You may also want to inspect all the control arm bushings as these can/do dry rot or wear out allowing a lot of slop and can have the rear end shifting around under acceleration and deceleration.

Why spend $150 for an inspection/seals? What will you do when they say, "Hey, we checked out the transmission and we have bad news."?? Why not simply rebuild it before putting it in. Here is a reasonable rebuild kit that has all the parts and lists the "sprag" - $296.50 https://www.700r4l60e.com/store/catalog/TH350-Rebuild-Kit-Street-Strip-p-35.html

Get a quote from the trans shop and tell him what you are thinking of doing in buying a kit and what he would charge to rebuild it with your supplied kit. You will also want to replace the torque converter and these are cheap enough at Summit. You don't need a high stall/trick converter as the 455 will have enough torque to move the car. Just make sure it fits your application. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g2699/overview/

The rebuild kit, labor at the shop to install, and a torque converter will give you a good baseline as to what the complete job will cost. Again, if the budget doesn't allow for it at this time, then go with the new seals/gaskets while it is out, but know that it could be bad news and you'll have to come up with plan "B". If all looks OK, then install it for now and start saving for a rebuild IF the need arises.

Hate to say it, but when you start ramping up from the stock engine/drivetrain and go bigger/more HP, you will find yourself spending more dollars and possibly breaking parts there were factory engineered to work together at the factory HP levels, and won't hold up to bigger increases in HP/torque. It then boils down to "you can pay now or pay later." Again, I understand th budget thing. Had a '67 GTO ragtop with close ratio 4-speed and I swapped out the 3.90's for some 3.08's. Much better gas mileage, but hard on the clutch (and my driving style). Napa used to have a complete clutch kit - rebuilt diaphram, new clutch disc, new throw-out bearing for around $50. It's all I could swing and every couple of months I was under the car pulling the trans and doing the swap - got pretty good/fast doing it. After the third swap, in went an automatic that I pulled from a car I scrapped and I was done with it. LOL Wish I could have afforded a good/new HD pressure plate & clutch disc, but I had a very limited macaroni and cheese 3 nights a week budget, with a wife and only making $4.75 an hour. LOL

Again, it will ultimately be your call and sometimes you just gotta jump rather than overthink it, and once you land, then you can re-evaluate where you are and what needs to be done next. :thumbsup:

Playing with cars ain't cheap like it used to be. :frown2:


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Don't know if this has anything to do with your problem or not. But, if the vacuum modulator is not getting enuff vac, or is not working correctly, for any reason, it can definitely affect the upshifting. We've run stock TH400's in race cars, with the vac line unhooked. We shifted manually between 5000 & 6000 rpm. Don't think they'll shift automatically, except maybe at WOT, unless the vac modulator is working correctly. The governor will determine the WOT automatic shift points. SO, if the vac modulator is not functioning properly, for whatever reason, it MIGHT be at least part of your problem--or not ???

Also, make sure the kickdown cable is unhooked so that it won't influence your shifts.

You can Google up lots of TH350 info. As with a lot of subjects, opinions differ on the kickdown cable function. Competition TH350's don't have a kickdown cable. They are removed and replaced with a plug in the hole. 

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16640

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/eliminating-kickdown-cable-t-350-transmission-152286.html


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Well I knew the trans was going to be the weak point, but I was hoping I could make it work for now. I'd love to rebuild the trans with that great kit you found, but I'm terrified of transmissions. haha I'm sure that guy would rebuild with the kit but it'll cost me more than I probably can budget right now. I will check the play in the driveshaft and bushings soon...when its not -4F outside! I have some pondering to do. I think at this point I'm leaning towards draining it, replacing filter, maybe the vacuum modulator and disconnecting the kickdown. Put new fluid in and seals and new cheap torque converter and hope for the best.

I think maybe you guys are onto something with the clunking and the modulator though. The cam in this 350 is BIG(PO installed) and it pulls all the damn vacuum. Even my disc brakes don't act like disc brakes cause all the vacuum is gone from the stupid cam. Part of the reason I'm ditching that motor and going big. Maybe with some new u-joints and more vacuum in the system the trans will act differently. Guess only time will tell. Also the wife's grasp on what the importance of the transmission to the car means to the family cruise nights! hahaha


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Just talked to the trans guy and he still said 900-1200 including a torque converter(price changes based on condition of the pump, gear train, etc) his words...so take $200 or off off and that's still a huge chunk of change for rebuild plus the $300 kit. Guess I'll do some checking around see if I can find someone cheaper or I'll just skip it all and do what I said and see how long it last as it is with fresh fluids and seals and filters and new torque converter.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

So I just talked to my Pontiac guy I got the engine from...of course he's got everything I need! Crossmember, th400 gto driveshaft, yolk, linkage and trans mount for $230! That plus that $150 TH400 I linked to earlier in this thread and I'm looking at $500 total investment. The guy selling the trans swears it was behind a nicely built 455 and gives me his word its a nice transmission. He doesn't sell garbage...so I can either take him for his word or scrap this whole idea because rebuilding is out of the question at the price points I'm finding around me. I think I'm going to do it.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

KowalskiCW said:


> So I just talked to my Pontiac guy I got the engine from...of course he's got everything I need! Crossmember, th400 gto driveshaft, yolk, linkage and trans mount for $230! That plus that $150 TH400 I linked to earlier in this thread and I'm looking at $500 total investment. The guy selling the trans swears it was behind a nicely built 455 and gives me his word its a nice transmission. He doesn't sell garbage...so I can either take him for his word or scrap this whole idea because rebuilding is out of the question at the price points I'm finding around me. I think I'm going to do it.



There you go, making a decision. Now for $500, I would say it is a deal. With all the hardware to do the swap, if the TH-400 failed, then I would rebuild it as it is the stronger trans when comparing stock to stock. Seems you have a firm word from the seller that the trans is good, so I'd go with it. Problem solved. :thumbsup:


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

So another question. Does using my stock exhaust manifolds totally destroy the performance on this 455 with 6x heads? Will it mate up right? I need a new exhaust system after looking at it in detail but headers might be out of the question right now since I'd want some decent ones. Is it a valid thought to use the ones from my 350 or will it be pointless?

2nd unrelated question. Anyone have a good reputation on 69 Lemans/GTO carpets? I've found a couple but want to hear from people here first. I need the dark green to match. I tore out all my seats to trace down the old nasty musty smell in my car and it's definitely most in the carpet.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

A 455 will still have plenty of low end torque. The log manifolds will began to choke it down probably beginning about 3500 rpm or thereabouts. If it has a decent cam, the power difference could be quite a bit at 5000 & up. 

If you can't afford the $700-$800 super-duper ceramic coated big tube headers, right now, one option is to find a good used set of 3-tube headers. Some say these are better than logs, and about equal to the RA manifolds. And, for most vehicles, they are a bit easier to install than big tube headers. They are only about $217 shipped, new.

Hedman 28140 Painted Exhaust Header Tube Size 1 5/8"-2" Coll 3" Pontiac 326-455 | eBay

Here's the pic of the driver side of a free set I have on my '68 Bird bracket car.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Here is what I did on my '68 Lemans when I had the 400CI in it. The engine/trans needs to be in the car with the exhaust manifolds in place. First open up the exhaust manifold ports with a die grinder and carbide cutter to match the exhaust gaskets you use. Smooth anything out inside the manifolds you think you can reach. Do this before bolting them onto the engine.

(I am not 100% sure on the OD/ID size match as I did this at the parts store, but you can get the picture of how this works). I got a short section of exhaust pipe with the flare and new flanges to fit the exhaust manifolds, I think 2" OD (outside diameter) pipe (you can typically find a length at the local parts store or go to your local muffler shop and have them flare a very short length of pipe).

Next I got an exhaust pipe reducer that went from 2" ID (inside diameter) to 2 1/2" OD then another from 2 1/2" ID to 3" OD, and a 90 degree elbow 3" ID.

You are going to "build" your head pipes as you go. Bolt the 2" OD pipe to the manifold with your new flanges, slip the 2" ID/2 1/2" OD pipe over it, then the 2 1/2" ID/3" OD pipe on, then the 3" elbow. You will have to cut and fit all these pieces as you are going to weld them up. You also want the starter/oil filter on as well so you can fit the pipes around these.

The goal is to size up the pipes from the stock 2" to a 3" pipe. In NC, you don't have to have tailpipes, just have to go to the back axle (at least that's all I did) and used turn downs off the mufflers. You want to also have your straight pipe, 3", so you can get an idea of where it will fit under the car and how far down you have to come off the exhaust manifold to pick-up the straight pipe that will be under the car.

Not the simplest way to go, but you want to remove the flow restriction of the smaller exhaust manifolds and size up the pipes to 3" as early as you can, thus the adapters right off the manifold tied into the 3" 90 degree elbow. It was a slow process to fit, cut, fit, cut, fit, weld,etc.. It also put my pipes close to the pan due to the 3" size, and probably should have fabricated an aluminum heat shield that I could clamp to the 3" elbow between the pipe and pan. 

I like to fabricate & weld, so not an issue with me. 3" pipe will also hang low, so if your car is anything less than stock in road clearances, you could have clearance issues. I did have a problem initially with the 3" elbow on the driver's side hitting the ground. It was welded to hang a little lower and the front springs were new, but were really "bouncy" and not firm at all. Took care of that by adding 70/30 front shocks so the car would bounce up easy enough, but settle down much slower, and I never had a problem again when going over road bumps.

It might also be possible to get a 2 1/2" head pipe, factory type/fit. Cut the 2 1/2" flare end off the pipe, then fit the 2" pipe with flare on one end then use the reducer to mate it up to the 2 1/2" pipe, bolt it up, then find the best place to again use a reducer to go up from the 2 1/2" to a 3" pipe and cut/fit as close to the elbow/bend on your 2 1/2" factory pipes.

It seemed to work on my Lemans and I did the same thing when I was in my early 20's with the 409CI engine which used a factory 2 1/2" outlet off the manifold. I had a 2 1/2" pipe and it ran OK, but nothing stellar. I don't know why I even did it, but sized the head pipe up to 3" right off the manifold using a reducer and going all 3" pipe right down to tailpipes. It was like night and day. The engine came to life and swear it felt like another 50HP was freed up. So I did the same thing with my Lemans. With the 455CI going into it, have Doug's headers to be installed, but not inexpensive. :thumbsup:

Hope that gives you some ideas.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

So basically what you guys are telling me is the stock 350 manifolds will rob me of some fun for sure and it's probably worth at least finding some used headers for cheap. 
PJ your piecing together an exhaust system sounds like a lot of work I can't do with no welder/welding experience but pretty cool you could do such a thing. Thanks for typing that all up..
bigD those headers look like the fit nice, maybe I'll keep my eye out for a cheaper used set.
I will contact my Pontiac guy and see what he might have layin around the shop as I'm already getting a bunch of drive line stuff from him next time I see him anyways. Maybe he'll feel sorry for me  ha

So about the carpet again...its VERY musty smelling and this is the only reason I was thinking of replacing it. Does anyone know if I could get it cleaned professionally and the smell would actually go away? The carpet is in amazing shape really and its a shame to dump it but the smell is awful, so much so my daughter hates riding in the car for too long.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

You definitely need to remove and replace the old padding under the carpeting as most of the stink is there. Ames and Legendary interior can help you there. Check the carpeting---if the mold is in localized areas this video can help--- 




If the whole carpet has problems, you could try a local carpet cleaner company to see if they can clean it thoroughly in their shop as most have a facility for bringing in and cleaning area rugs from homes. If the carpet is hopeless, than Ames and Legendary are your best hope.

Legendary----- Legendary Auto Interiors - The Interior Specialists Since 1985

Ames---- Ames Performance Engineering, Classic GTO Parts, Firebird Parts, and Full Size Pontiac restoration parts.

Hope this is of some help.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Thanks for the carpet info. I'll have to try some home sprays/soaks first then my local Stanley Steamer or something. The carpet is in such nice shape. 
As for new carpet I have those two places from other discussions I found searching. I'll have to see where I leave off after trying the enzyme cleaners. 
I'm already going to have to replace the padding...what about the sound deadener? This is why I'd like to salvage the carpet because this is adding up fast! haha go figure.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Does the burnt oil on the sides of my rockers indicate anything? I finally took the valve covers off my soon to be out 350 and noticed this on just these. The rest in the engine are clean. I had really poor compression from the tests hence why I am putting a 455 in. Just wondering if this is an indicator of blow by or these just ran hotter?


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Can no one give me a thought on the post above? I really want to know if that burnt oil means anything if I try selling this motor to relay to the buyer.
Thanks!


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

in an unknown mileage engine, the rocker arms, inside surface of valvecovers typically have an amber colored oil varnish on them. I wouldn't worry about such a deal on an old 350 Pontiac as a running engine needing work, it's not like its a high desirabilty piece. It could be worse, many were driven till they were so coked up under the valve covers & in the valley area, during disassembly its totally disgusting. Through the 90's up into the early '00's I kept a major Pontiac engine builder in 400 6x-4 cores. From my experience, can relay that for many years most 350 Pontiac engine cores have been good for a few things: good timing covers, nice valley pans, nice oilpans, head bolts & small bolts, oil filter housings...of course 5C-4 & 6X-4 heads. If the engine was a '68 or '69 350 HO, the block would be valuable to some restorer. Really nice std/std 350 Pontiac cranks are can be hung on to, as slightly lighter than same stroke 400 crank. Many Pontiac engine builders have used up the 350 cranks in 400 builds with lighter weight piston & rod builds as it speeds up the process during balancing & gets rid of a 350 Pontiac crank.

In your case, the '69 350 engine should have 47's. While the '68-70 small valve heads can be upgraded to 2.11/1.77 one piece stainless valves, screw in studs & guideplates, portwork, valvesprings, hardened exhaust seats, there is not a flood of Pontiac guys beating down the doors, so they can spend $500-1500 upgrading them. in other words such early 350 heads arent worth much. In reading earlier comments, I wouldnt worry about running the log manifolds. If you do have the log manifolds off the 455, they may be slightly larger diam at headpipe outlet. Used 3 tube headers are an easy find, many longtime Pontiac guys have a pair or two, or have friends that have a pair hanging on a garage wall, & none of these guys should be gouging your eyes out with rediculous prices for a pair.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

^^^^
Can't beat PH's advice:thumbsup:


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

KowalskiCW said:


> Can no one give me a thought on the post above? I really want to know if that burnt oil means anything if I try selling this motor to relay to the buyer.
> Thanks!


I see another rocker further down that looks the same. Are these the exhaust valves? Might just be from heat. If the rockers ran hot due to lack of oil, you will find "blueing" on the rocker ball or on the cup it rides in.

As to selling it, a 350 does not bring any money. The 1974 engine (not running but turns over) I bought last year cost me all of $75. Only missing the 2bbl carb. Many good parts which can be used on a 400, but I did buy it to keep complete and think I will at some point build it up just to see what I can do with it. A running engine will of course pull better money, but without knowing what is actually inside your engine, nor what condition the rings or bearings look like, you still won't get a lot. In my opinion, I would not pay more than $250 for the engine knowing I was going to rebuild it before I used it, but that is $250 I would put towards a set of RA exhaust manifolds.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Thanks guys that's what I needed to hear. I'll just part out this motor and get what I can out of it. It was a decent engine but I'm excited about the 462! I'll double check the rockers to see what exactly what is going on. I sold a bare 69 350 Pontiac torn down with cleaned up pistons and crank for 300 a few years back so I know they aren't worth much but any little but back helps my case!


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

These "burnt oil rockers" are indeed the exhaust side. Don't know if that matters. I guess I don't know if any of it matters. As I'm pulling it all apart to get the engine out I'm finding so many small oil leak points. Everything inside the heads look very nice though. I'll just take what I need and start parting this thing out then sell the block on CL to get as much out of it as I can. Thanks


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Sounds good! I've found that doing most all the work yourself (except machine shop) can be as challenging as finding the $$$$ to do it. Hang in there, you're doing well!


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

So I got my SMI Carb...what a thing of beauty! I cannot wait to hear this thing come to life. Also I found something fun at the bottom of my battery tray! Appears to be from the late 90s? haha


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Where do you guys find all these exploded view diagrams of the GTO/Lemans? I need one for my front end so I know how to disassemble it. 69 Lemans front. I ordered an Ames catalog almost 2 months ago and haven't seen it yet and I've looked online for diagrams but don't find much.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Much to the displeasure of some Pontiac experts, I & many other forum users get a lot of info from Google searches.

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...agrams+of+1969+tempest,+lemans+&+GTO&start=10


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

KowalskiCW said:


> Where do you guys find all these exploded view diagrams of the GTO/Lemans? I need one for my front end so I know how to disassemble it. 69 Lemans front. I ordered an Ames catalog almost 2 months ago and haven't seen it yet and I've looked online for diagrams but don't find much.


I have Paul Zazarine's book...it is over 500 pages of diagrams, pics, etc, etc. which I've found helpful. I also know some folks use Pontiac assembly line manuals which are even better but harder to find. https://www.amazon.com/Pontiac-Rest...64617&sr=1-1&keywords=pontiac+gto+restoration

Also I ordered an Ames catalog last week and and it arrived Monday 3 days ago. I have found the secret to be to call them and speak directly to someone for best service rather than internet. Also a helpful book which has been out of print forever is Eric White's Pontiac GTO/GT-37 Guide. Eric is deceased but his sister Heidi ahs hd the first edtion reprinted and available through Ames. VERY helpful book!


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Many years ago I owned an early copy of Zazzarine & Roberts original "GTO Restoration Gude". I would consider it more of a primer, & hardly a strong restoration source, esp once the years of GTO production got to the late '60's. Ended up giving that original edition to our local Pontiac club for its library, with the inscription, "use at your own risk for higher point restorations". Shortly thereafter I bought the newly revised edition which included GTO models up through 1972. It was very disappointing, more regurgitated production number & color code info for '71's & '72's, literally nothing that would help me in the restoration of the '71 GTO's I owned at the time.

Out of all the reference material I have on the bookshelves, original Pontiac Service manuals, early dated Master Parts Books, for true reassembly info, tend to use Assembly Manual copys more than any other. Have two near 25 year old loose leaf albums of the 1971 Pontiac A-body Assembly manual. These also cover '71 GrandPrixs. Also have a copy of the '72 Firebird Assembly manual. A good friend currently has my old copy of the '70 Pontiac A-body Assembly manual, it was invaluable when I was reassembling two '70 Judges. One of my best Pontiac restorer buddys has the '69 Pontiac A-body Assembly manual that the Kryta's (inline Tube) offers for sale. Have carefully leafed through that '69 Assembly manual several times, & was impressed with the quality of the printing. Fisher Body manuals are also very helpful, ESP when reaquinting oneself with various clips & reassembling glass & window regulators.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

So what one of these two would I need for good exploded diagrams of body/frame/interior stuff? I don't think I necessarily need mechanical tuning etc manuals.
1969 Pontiac Service Manual - '69 Firebird Shop Manual

or

https://www.diyrepairmanuals.com/pr...uWnMPnGzno4RsRzrjgeAfwQVTOoeTrrHE8aAlDP8P8HAQ

and if anyone is looking for everything I found this on ebay but I don't need to spend $100 right now
1969 69 PONTIAC Service Manual 4 Vol Set GTO Firebird Tempest LeMans Bonneville | eBay


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

To begin with, I would buy a 1969 Pontiac A-body (GTO-LeMans-Tempest) ASSEMBLY MANUAL. 

1969 pontiac lemans assembly manual | eBay

Then, if having fun with clips, harness routing, & window regulators, a 1969 Fisher Body Manual.

I seldom use any of my Pontiac Service manuals. Have quite a few


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Thank you. Manual ordered!


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

So I am looking at ordering new motor and trans mounts. I know many are all about the poly mounts but I don't see it necessary for this build. With a mild 455 and TH350 would you guys spend the money on Butler mounts($99 motor) or just get stock replacements($20 motor)? Is there really enough of a difference to warrant the extra costs? Anyone recommend another route?


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## john23 (Mar 6, 2016)

*my 2 cents worth*



KowalskiCW said:


> So since my research thread "350 Compression" is done and I went with the 455 I thought I'd start a new thread to cover the swap. It will be over the course of a winter, but most likely longer, as I have two little kids that take a lot of attention.
> So I'd like to start with the basic first question. With a 2 car garage and no other means of lifting the car other than putting it on some jack stands, do I pull the tranny with the engine and put the engine and trans back in together or do I separate them? I've never attempted an engine swap and need to know what I'm in for. It's a TH350 on the 350 right now and will be the TH350 on the 455 when I'm done. I plan on new engine mounts and headers...I guess that's another question. Can I get the headers on with the engine and trans in place?
> Thanks guys and I can't wait to get this ball rolling! :grin2:


if you plan on any abuse of your drive train take the TH350 out...than put it on ebay...you will want a turbo 400 in your car...the torque of even a mild 455 will make short work of a 350...good luck...


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

John yea I am trying to figure out how I can get the best of both worlds with the diminishing budget. I can get a stock used (in good working order)TH400 from a buddy for $150. Problem with the TH400 I'd have to change cross member$ and driveshaft$ and yolk$ as well as whatever it may change in my pinion angle right? I also REALLY need exhaust as I did some investigating and found there is like 100 small holes in my current system haha.
I am getting progress. With two small kids it's hard to get time but hood is off and everything but the trans and distributor is disconnected!


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

My next big question. Radiator? I have a stock radiator from my 350 Lemans. Do I HAVE to upgrade to something like this
1968 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 Pontiac GTO Champion 4 Row Aluminum Radiator MC161 | eBay
or will mine be ok if it's in perfect shape?


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Oh and I decided to take up my Pontiac buddy's offer and buy a used TH400 short shaft and gto driveshaft for it from him for $220! I pick it up next week.


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## john23 (Mar 6, 2016)

Kowalski i swapped a turbo 400 into my '65 gto...it had a turbo 300...yes the cross member has to be moved (back, i think) i had to drill 2 new holes and was able to use 2 existing holes....i didn't shorten the drive shaft at first because it will physically fit, but there is not enough room for travel and in short order i pounded the rear seal out of the turbo 400...i don't remember changing the yoke but if you do, it can happen the same time as the drive shaft shortening....as for pinon angle i didn't know what that was at the time, and so i didn't need it! in my case it did not adversely hurt the car or driving characteristics...i know this is a pain, but you will have a bulletproof trans when you are done...if you do re build the th 400 it will last a long time....also you have lots of choices for converters with the 400..i found a cheap old trash shifter which i used but it wasn't ideal...i presently run a b&m quick click..install it, adjust it, and never think about it again, slam shift as hard as you want, you won't hurt the shifter...it also fit through the slot in my console....good luck on your conversion


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## john23 (Mar 6, 2016)

kowalski, i see you bought a turbo 400, that is a good price, unless you know for sure it is in good working order, have a trans shop look at it....what stall converter will you use?


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## john23 (Mar 6, 2016)

kowalski the later cross flow radiators cool better than the earlier down flow design...if it was me, i would flush the radiator, be sure the shroud is in good shape, go with a clutch fan..and see if it will cool your combo...there are lots of things you can do to help your cooling system, but you may not need them ...


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Thanks John! 
After talking to my Pontiac guy he said the 69 Lemans should have the holes already there for the TH400 crossmember relocation. I haven't looked myself yet. He has the right driveshaft/yolk to go with the trans so I think I should be set. I will probably take the pan off and replace the filter and fluid(maybe install shift kit) and I was looking at a 2100-2200 stall Summit brand converter. I'm not looking to launch this thing in drag races or anything. I'll just put it all together and see. 

As for the radiator that's good info. I'll flush it and put good coolant with maybe a royal purple additive or something and I already bought a 160deg thermostat just in case. I'll look into a clutch fan as well but really trying to not spend more money til I know its necessary I guess.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Well I picked up my super dirty 69 TH400 and a 69 driveshaft from a GTO to go with it, that's in perfect shape barely even any surface rust. Picking up all the pieces to refresh what I can tonight from O'Reillys on the TH400(filter, seals, modulator) and will have to spend a good day cleaning it, but its got the 69 tag on it still. This project is shaping up! Oh I did however do more inspection and turns out I have 2.56 gearing WAH WAH WAHHHHHH so that'll have to be changed down the road when I do posi. Fun fun


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## john23 (Mar 6, 2016)

KowalskiCW said:


> Thanks John!
> After talking to my Pontiac guy he said the 69 Lemans should have the holes already there for the TH400 crossmember relocation. I haven't looked myself yet. He has the right driveshaft/yolk to go with the trans so I think I should be set. I will probably take the pan off and replace the filter and fluid(maybe install shift kit) and I was looking at a 2100-2200 stall Summit brand converter. I'm not looking to launch this thing in drag races or anything. I'll just put it all together and see.
> 
> As for the radiator that's good info. I'll flush it and put good coolant with maybe a royal purple additive or something and I already bought a 160deg thermostat just in case. I'll look into a clutch fan as well but really trying to not spend more money til I know its necessary I guess.


i'm interdsted in knowing how your build turns out...let's hope it's done in time for summer!!!


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Anyone know if my stock starter from my 350 will be ok starting a 455 over and over? I'm on the fence about spending the money on a high torque mini starter since getting this stock one out was a nightmare. It always seemed to start my 350 fine...thoughts?


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

I fought those old stock starters for years.  Do yourself a favor & buy a Summit mini. I've bought 3 of 'em. The 1st was on a high compression 455 bracket engine. Cranked just fine, even when hot. Still have the last 2, which are both for sale. Just took one off my 455 bracket engine, because I sold the roller.

Today, new ones cost $186 shipped.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-820311/overview/make/pontiac

I'll sell my new one for $170 shipped. 

The used one was only on the engine for 2-3 street miles and maybe 20 starts since then. So, it's almost(or as they say "like") new. Price $150 shipped.

This shipping is only to the lower 48.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

PM Sent thanks!


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## john23 (Mar 6, 2016)

put a mini starter on my hi compression 455 years ago, haven't looked at it since, as D says, they are the only way to fly...i also have a remote ford solenoid and highly recommend them..not only do they isolate the solenoid from header heat, they eliminate the permanent live cable snaking its way down to your starter ready to bite you should anything burn or rub...


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...i also have a remote ford solenoid and highly recommend them..."

Yes, I always do this on my bracket racers. Just install a small jumper wire, from the big cable terminal, to the start terminal, on the starter. Then, as soon as 12 volts hits the start terminal on the Ford type remote solenoid, the starter engages, the 455 starts, & everybody is happy !


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Is there anything wrong with just running a mini starter by itself? I don't want to do this ford solenoid if I don't have to. It's just a weekend cruiser with the family and maybe around town here and there.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

KowalskiCW said:


> Is there anything wrong with just running a mini starter by itself? I don't want to do this ford solenoid if I don't have to. It's just a weekend cruiser with the family and maybe around town here and there.


The reason is the hot starting issue and the Ford solenoid helps eliminate this. Thee are other ways , see this link:

http://www.gtoforum.com/f170/69-gto-high-torque-starter-not-starting-whem-hot-109978/

If you decide to go Ford. Summit offers a nice kit with wiring and directions, here yah go:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g1750/overview/


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Decided to put some time in on the really crappy aluminum valve covers and air cleaner. They were black in the fins and the outside just looked like 25 years of being on an engine with never being cleaned. Took them to get sand blasted with the finest sand he had which still turned out rough. No glass or media blasting within 100 miles of me so I just went with it. I then sanded with 400 grit then red scotch bright to get that brushed look which I like. Painted pontiac blue and then wahlah! Still have some final sanding to do but I love it and can't wait to get these on that 455!


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Ok my next questions is the use of stock 350 manifolds on my 455. I know I know, rob it of power and flow, but my budget is blown and they are in good shape so I'm using them. Question is...they don't have the two furthest out bolt holes nor did the block have the holes on the 350. I notice the 455 has the holes but of course the manifolds don't. Is there a solution to get that extra assurance of the seal or will the stock 4 bolts be enough to make the exhaust seal on the 455? Like use a bolt and a couple washers big enough to catch a lip or grind out a spot on the flange or anything?
Thanks!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

KowalskiCW said:


> Ok my next questions is the use of stock 350 manifolds on my 455. I know I know, rob it of power and flow, but my budget is blown and they are in good shape so I'm using them. Question is...they don't have the two furthest out bolt holes nor did the block have the holes on the 350. I notice the 455 has the holes but of course the manifolds don't. Is there a solution to get that extra assurance of the seal or will the stock 4 bolts be enough to make the exhaust seal on the 455? Like use a bolt and a couple washers big enough to catch a lip or grind out a spot on the flange or anything?
> Thanks!



Did the exhaust manifolds leak on the 350? You should be OK, just get some good exhaust gaskets and when you bolt them on, torque them evenly and then re-torque after the car has been run/cycled a few times.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

They did not leak that I could ever tell and I bought copper gaskets from summit. I'm going to get good grade 8 bolts and hope for the best then and retorque after some miles if I can get to all the bolts! haha dang pontiacs and their impossible heads.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Little preview of my set up going in the car once I get my transmission back! I'm super excited. Just have to get the manifolds blasted and painted and then it's assembly time!


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

So I notice there is a threaded hole in the back of the block right next to the distributor hole on the drivers side on my new engine with nothing in it. On my 350 there was a plug. What is this hole intended for? Do I just plug it like the 350? 
Thanks!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

KowalskiCW said:


> So I notice there is a threaded hole in the back of the block right next to the distributor hole on the drivers side on my new engine with nothing in it. On my 350 there was a plug. What is this hole intended for? Do I just plug it like the 350?
> Thanks!


Sounds like the small oil hole which you can use for an oil pressure gauge. You can either plug it or use it. Some will leave the oil pressure sensor at the oil filter for the idiot light and use the hole at the distributor for an add-on mechanical oil gauge. Others will remove the electrical oil pressure sensor and tap in the oil gauge there, or add a T-fitting and use both.

It is said that the gauge at the oil filter will provide a higher reading because it is before the filter (full pressure, and what the factory specs would go by) while the one at the distributor will be slightly lower because it is after the filter and oiling through the engine. It is said the one at the distributor is a better indicator of the actual oil pressure within the engine. Some say with both gauges, you can watch the one at the filter versus the one at the distributor to monitor the condition of your oil filter and know when it is getting dirty and need replacing.

I used both, filter/distributor mechanical gauges. The one at the distributor was lower. It can be a little concerning as you will find yourself watching the gauges and wondering if everything is OK......or not. So it may be best to plug the hole at the distributor and use the hole at the filter if nothing more than peace of mind. Ignorance is bliss and don't worry about it until it is knocking real bad like. :thumbsup:


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Thanks PJ! I will plug it for now but I think I'll definitely make that purchase in the future. I don't like idiot lights but need to keep remaining costs low.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Guys please help! I ordered gaskets for this engine and took them out before realizing they are wrong! What is that top port and should it be covered by gasket? The bottom port in that same location, should that be covered by gasket? (see pics) My Edelbrock Performer RPM has that bottom one open but covers that top port. 
I was going to order these gaskets next.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sce-128101
I got the engine in and trans in and everything bolted up so nicely. Got to work on the top end and that gasket screwed me!
Thanks!


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

I'll have to research this but hopefully someone else knows this problem and will get back to you while I'm researching. I know Pontiac did this in the 6X/4X heads for emissions reasons so earlier non-EGR intakes could not be used. There are gaskets and other way to solve the problems, but I'm having senior moments this AM and can't remember what is generally done to solve this.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...What is that top port and should it be covered by gasket? The bottom port in that same location, should that be covered by gasket?..."

"...I know Pontiac did this in the 6X/4X heads for emissions reasons so earlier non-EGR intakes could not be used..."


The top slot does not have to be covered by the gasket. In fact, gaskets for the '72-up heads leave that top slot open. I've read that it's there for extra cooling. It is a blind hole. The larger square hole is the exhaust heat riser hole, which is designed to transfer exhaust heat to the exhaust heat crossover of the intake manifold. It must be sealed off by the intake gasket.

The only non-EGR factory intakes which were made for heads with this blind hole were the 1972 models. All the '73-'79 intakes were EGR. Don't think the blind holes had any connection to the EGR system, since they were used in '72. But, as always, I could be wrong. 

Some guys wanna use a '68-'71 iron intake on the later model heads, such as 6X. In order to do this, the blind hole can be filled, and early model gaskets used. The problem is that the passenger side exhaust crossover hole is too tall for use with the late, unmodified heads. Here's a link to that info.

Pontiac Cylinder Head Modification - Hot Rod Network

I have read that some have used Fel-Pro #1233 intake gaskets to solve this problem. But, I can not confirm that this will work. I'd assume that the passenger side gasket would eventually burn out, at the exhaust crossover. 

Anyhow, the aftermarket intakes do not have the tall rectangular crossover hole. So the late type gaskets should work, sealing off the square heat riser hole, in the head.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Thanks BigD BUT my Edelbrock performer RPM intake covers that top port and has the square opening to match that one on the head...why would I cover that up? Having that open before on my 350...was that adding to my heat soak gas boiling issue? I'll block both openings off if that is the best route to go with gasket and intake.
While I'm asking what's the best intake gasket sealing plan? RTV on top and bottom or just top or just bottom or none at all?
And as for that Felpro gasket I did order the same gasket but Edelbrock brand so I'll use what you recommend!


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

KowalskiCW said:


> ...my Edelbrock performer RPM intake covers that top port and has the square opening to match that one on the head...why would I cover that up? Having that open before on my 350...was that adding to my heat soak gas boiling issue? I'll block both openings off if that is the best route to go with gasket and intake.
> While I'm asking what's the best intake gasket sealing plan? RTV on top and bottom or just top or just bottom or none at all?



The heat crossover system is designed to heat the intake/carb, and the fuel/air mixture. This is mostly for cold weather driving, to get the carb up to operating temp quicker. I always blocked the heat crossover, with thin metal plates, street & strip. The Mr. Gasket intake gaskets I used came with the block-off plates. But, they are very thin, and will eventually burn thru, with constant street use. If you decide to block 'em off, I'd use some slightly thicker stainless plates. 

But, I live in Louisiana, where we don't have much cold weather. I never even ran a working choke. Some intakes don't even have an exhaust heat crossover. I used a factory alum intake without the heat crossover. Just used metal flat bar to block the crossover. Some guys remove the crossover from stock iron intakes. The Chinese intakes do not have a crossover. Neither does the Edelbrock Victor, the KRE Northwind, and others. 

There is no reason to block off the top, blind hole, unless you wanna run a '71 or older iron intake. If open, it will actually help cool the head slightly. I suppose that if you really wanted to leave it open, you could grind off enuff material, in order to leave it uncovered. 

I always used sealer around the water connections, and a small amount around the intake ports, top & bottom. Some of the intake gaskets today, already have beads of sealer around the openings.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Alright well I'll be using the gasket to block off what I can and I think I'll cut up a piece of beer can for the exhaust cross over ha. I'm not going to grind material off of my intake at this point. If I ever get overheating issues I'll resort to that I guess.
Thanks!


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

KowalskiCW said:


> Alright well I'll be using the gasket to block off what I can and I think I'll cut up a piece of beer can for the exhaust cross over ha. I'm not going to grind material off of my intake at this point. If I ever get overheating issues I'll resort to that I guess.
> Thanks!


We all grow with time...back in late '60's I used beer can to block off heat risers..just not real durable I discovered (HA).>


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

There is little reason to bind ones Pontiac V8 to a '72+ intake, just because its heads are '72 & later. Sure, if one is doing a high point restoration of a '78 or '79 W72 400 Bird, run the factory "bump" intake, it flows just as well as '72 & earlier factory intakes. 

For bread & butter street/strip builds have been using a thin stainless steel T shaped blockoff to block the dead pocket on 6X headed combo's for at least the last 25 years. First used this on a local's 400 engine in his '65 GTO. The owner was running a tripower & had a tough time sealing off the passenger side center exhaust passage. I won't claim credit to the solution as I later learned HO Racing published a dimensional drawing of this exact solution in the late '70's. For a while, in the late 90's I did find it a little tough to find thin scrap stainless steel to cut the top hole block off out of. For the last 15 years or so, many late model vehicles use a thin stainless steel piece in conjunction with their brake pads. The little stainless piece typically gets tossed, ck your local brake shop or local mechanic if you can't find one. About 10 minutes of scribing the pattern & careful cutting with a Drexel cutoff wheel is all it takes.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Well I may have screwed myself but I made a T shape out of a beer can! haha. I also used the thick Edelbrock block off that came with the kit. It seems pretty stout and should hold up for a while. If not and it burns thru is it really the end of the world? I live in MN so extra heat in the manifold probably isn't the worst thing. Thanks for all your info guys. This thing is really coming together!


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Lookin' good, you're going to do it!!


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Ok so next question. I've never broken in a motor before BUT this motor is a "3k used" motor but was taken apart, checked and reassembled with lube on the cam and everything. My question is if I don't have a oil priming tool...is it necessary to do or can I just prime the system the best I can by disconnecting the power to the dist and cranking it over for a bit to get oil moved around? Or am I just asking for problems? I'm hoping to fire it up Sat and figured I'd add the last bit of oil right onto the lifters and stuff before I button up the valve covers.
Thoughts?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

A buddy with a '71 Z28 installed a late model corvette 3,000 mile engine in it and it sat for 15 years. My machinist told me to tell him to just pull the plugs on all the cylinders so it would not have an compression and spin it over with the starter a few times to get the oil flowing. He did and no issues.

But, I would also recommend pulling the valve covers to watch for oil flowing out the push rods.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Well I used my old distributor and made a priming tool. I can hear it priming but it never gets to the rockers like I hoped. My drill starts smoking before I can get that to happen haha. Cheap ToolShop crap. Oh well I'll do that for as long as I can right before I put the dizzy in and fire it up. Hopefully in the next week. I finally beat my trans issue and all the fluids are in the car! I'm working on new oil/water/volt gauges and it'll be ready. Fingers crossed!


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

IT'S ALIVE!!! Finally got all my ducks in a row and finished up the engine. I primed it the best I could til my drill burned out, wired it up and turned it over and it fired up in about 20secs after getting fuel up. That SMI quadrajet ran awesome right out the box! I timed initial to 12 and then drove it to my local shop to have it tuned as I do not have all the equipment or knowledge. I read Lars tuning many times and told them exactly how I wanted it. I can't wait to get this thing back and finish up! I'll share pics and video when I get the chance. Summit 2-1/2" true dual exhaust sounded great too. After all the troubles I think this will be well worth it.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Video of the 462 CI running thru 2-1/2" Summit dual exhaust system with a 850cfm Quadrajet. This thing runs great!
https://photos.app.goo.gl/L0pDfnOP6TAmFMGI2


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Wow, man you did it!! Sounds great, looks great. Obviously you've put alot of work into it and it shows. Hope the shop does you right....Sean advised me NOT to touch his Q-jet (he got it set up right) and don't let anyone else mess with it. Thought I better pass this along with the congrats.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Thanks! It was a lot of work and still some stupid little leaks I gotta track down but runs great. I had a shop tune and time and all he had to do was mess with idle settings nothing else with the SMI carb which is probably what anyone would have to do. I couldn't be happier with my SMI carb I gotta say. That thing fires right up and idles beautifully and when you get on it..it whooshes!


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

It's pretty obvious you guys are sick of this thread as no one really responds to it anymore haha but it's really helped me a lot. 

So my next issue came up this weekend. After putting on a couple hundred miles of moderate driving I decided to give it a few times and after my runs of all 3 gears up to 4800rpm I developed a very noticeable tick on the drivers side. I did the screw driver to the ear test on the covers and I'm not sure if it sounds like a loose rocker or something but it's near the center ports. Loose rocker arm nut being totally stock up top?

Could it maybe even be an exhaust leak? I have copper gaskets(which after I bought and installed them someone told me they are prone to leaks) is that true? If so I hate being my own engineer as 1968gto421 put it. Could a exhaust gasket leak sound like a very noticeable tick? Either way that will be a nigthmare to replace with the engine in won't it?

I'm going to get the front end up on jack stands tonight and dive into it but I'm hoping it's either that or the loose rocker arm nut and not a bend pushrod or valve! I just finished this F'ing thing and have no more funds.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

I did a search on the PY forum as a search here makes me crazy. Here is a link to the answers I got:

PY Online Forums - Search Results

One thread there sounded interesting:

1970 YU 350 in Tempest - Identifying Ticking Sound - PY Online Forums

Hope this helps. You might could join the PY forum and post this there....rarely does a question go unanswered there.

Good luck...odd sounds are a PITA to figure out.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Wow that helped a lot. I also found a video on youtube of a corvette with a 350 with the exact same noise so after all the reading and knowing the sound I'm probably dealing with a loose or prematurely worn rocker arm. I'll take the cover off and check them tonight. Also there is still suspicion of the exhaust gasket leaking but doesn't sound like bent valve or anything more serious. Thank and I'll let you know what I find!


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

KowalskiCW said:


> Wow that helped a lot. I also found a video on youtube of a corvette with a 350 with the exact same noise so after all the reading and knowing the sound I'm probably dealing with a loose or prematurely worn rocker arm. I'll take the cover off and check them tonight. Also there is still suspicion of the exhaust gasket leaking but doesn't sound like bent valve or anything more serious. Thank and I'll let you know what I find!


Sounds good, I'd like to know what you find.
(If I don't respond for awhile, here's why. At 5:15AM Wed 15th, I report to St Francis Hospital for serious back surgery. First they go in from the front to repair the front of several vertebrae, then glue me together,flip me over, and open up the back to finish the repairs there.This will be followed up by some hospital incarceration. If I'm lucky, I'll be home Saturday, who knows. Take care and watch it, lifting cylinder heads off engines in the car over the years...not good.

Take Care


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

1968gto421 said:


> Sounds good, I'd like to know what you find.
> (If I don't respond for awhile, here's why. At 5:15AM Wed 15th, I report to St Francis Hospital for serious back surgery. First they go in from the front to repair the front of several vertebrae, then glue me together,flip me over, and open up the back to finish the repairs there.This will be followed up by some hospital incarceration. If I'm lucky, I'll be home Saturday, who knows. Take care and watch it, lifting cylinder heads off engines in the car over the years...not good.
> 
> Take Care


Good Luck with that back surgery. :thumbsup: I know my day is coming when my chiropractor says he can't do any more for me. Getting old is not for the weak! LOL


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Holy crap man yeah take care of that and get better! I've got quite the f'ed back to with arthritis and bulging discs so I feel ya. Good luck. I found the two center bolts on my exhaust manifold were in fact loose so I tightened them. Got quieter but didn't go away. So I put the front up on jack stands to do some more investigating. Hoping I find something besides the small leaks I need to solve under there anyways!


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

So I got the car jacked up and started to tighten the downpipe to manifold bolts and realized the drivers side had loosened up so I tightened them...but with no much torque at all I felt a pop..sure sh*t the bolt hole I didn't drill and tap new threads into was also f**cking stripped! Of course you cant get a straight shot at it so I'm going old school and buying a longer bolt and nut and clamping it. Fortunately it looks like there is room to do that with these stock manifolds. I'm hoping that is the fix and the ticking will go away since I tightened the two center port bolts over 1/2 a turn already and it quieted. So this in combo with that "should" be my ticking! I hope....
Still going to take the valve covers off and double check the rocker arm nut torque and slop to make sure they are right.
Stripped bolt holes has been my arch-nemesis on this car! 6 and counting.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Sounds like you're on the right track. And no, speaking for myself I'm not sick of the thread. I just haven't been checking in here as often as I used to - my bad 

An exhaust leak, if it's very small, can make a ticking sound that can be difficult to distinguish from something mechanical. You'll find that on other threads here, from time to time, folks have recommended to "check the easy stuff first". That's pretty good advice when you're chasing an unknown gremlin. Depending on what else might be in the way, checking/tightening an exhaust manifold or header gasket MAY be easier than opening up the top of the engine to look for something else. (The ugliness that comes with headers notwithstanding).

Bear


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

So I tightened all my exhaust parts and put a threw bolt in the one manifold one that was stripped and I thought that was it for sure. It wasn't...still ticked. So I opened up the valve covers and on the #7 cylinder the exhaust rocker nut was COMPLETELY LOOSE! I could turn it about 1-1/2 turns before it even got tight with my fingers. So I took it off and checked the pushrod and it's perfectly straight yet. The rocker looks ok and so does the ends of the pushrod. I got lucky I didn't beat on it after I heard the ticking. So I'm going to do all the rockers setting the lash and stuff and put it back together. What a relief it shouldn't be anything further.
Fingers crossed.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

You did not say if you have polylocks or factory type rocker arm nuts. If you are not using polylocks, the nuts will continue to back off. 

The factory type nuts just don't seem to hold. I think when new, they may work better, but once they have been removed or readjusted, they seem to lose their holding power, much like a nylock nut really is a one time use.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Crap yea its all factory. Do I really need to spend more frickin money?!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

KowalskiCW said:


> Crap yea its all factory. Do I really need to spend more frickin money?!


Consider your car as just another one of your kids........you will always be spending more money on it. Never ends.

As I recall, you did have the better heads with the screw-in rocker arm studs, correct? You did torque the rocker arm nuts down to 20-25 ft lbs, rather than "zero-lash" them? 

If you have the 3/8" studs, you could try a new set of crimped lock nuts just to see if they may work better being new. Butler has them for $15 http://butlerperformance.com/i-25685815-3-8-lock-nuts-pep-rm-1786-16.html?ref=category:1234784

All Pontiac rocker arm studs are of the 3/8" bottleneck type, even the screw-in studs found on the hi-perf. heads unless they have been swapped out with the aftermarket ARP big block style 7/16" rocker arm studs. These studs are not of the bottleneck style and have additional threads. You cannot use the torque method with these studs, they need the poly locks to be used. 

So make sure you order the correct poly locks if you go that route. They come in 3/8" and 7/16" as well as short body & long body lengths. If too long, it is possible they will not tighten down correctly, and you can have interference fit issues with some valve covers if the poly locks are too tall.

Butler also offers 3/8" & 7/16" poly locks which are reasonably priced at $25: http://butlerperformance.com/search.html?q=poly+locks


Here is some info that may help: "POLY LOCK NUT ADJUSTMENT FOR HYDRAULIC CAMS. YOU CANNOT PROPERLY TIGHTEN POLY LOCKS BY JUST TURNING THE ALLEN SET SCREW.

1) INSTALL POLY-LOCK WITH HEX END UP. THREAD IN SET SCREWS A FEW TURNS WITH HOLLOW HEX END UP.
2) MAKE SURE LIFTER IN ON THE HEEL OF THE CAM.
3) IN ORDER TO GET A "FEEL" FOR THE PRESSURE OF PUSHROD AGAINST LIFTER CUP, PUSH THE PUSHROD INTO THE LIFTER BY HAND SO YOU CAN FEEL IT'S SPRING TENSION. TIGHTEN POLY LOCK SLOWLY WHILE MOVING THE PUSHROD UP AND DOWN, BEING CAREFUL TO STOP TURNING THE POLY-LOCK JUST AS THE PUSHROD TOUCHES THE LIFTER CUP, AND THE UP AND DOWN FREE PLAY IS TAKEN UP.
4) NOW TURN THE POLY LOCK ONE MORE "FLAT", OR A SIXTH OF A TURN. HOLD THE POLY LOCK IN THAT LOCATION WITH A BOX END WRENCH. TURN THE INSIDE ALLEN SET SCREWS DOWN UNTIL IT CONTACTS THE ROCKER STUD. SNUG IT WITH THE PALM OF YOUR HAND. DO NOT TIGHTEN!
5) WITH THE BOX END WRENCH IN ONE HAND AND THE ALLEN WRENCH, TURN BOTH TOGETHER UNTIL THEY TIGHTEN, OR APPROXIMATELY 25 FT. LBS. THEY MUST BE TIGHT, BUT YOU DON'T WANT TO BE AN APE EITHER. USE COMMON SENSE. 

When using a stock rocker stud, remove them first and file the top flat for positive allen screw contact."


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Nope PJ mine are stockers with the pressed type studs. I discovered I had threaded studs in my 350 I replaced but that's besides the point now.
I will probably just get some new crimped nuts from my local Ace as I've seen them there...hopefully I'm remembering right. I just want a couple weeks of driving before MN winter hits! haha. I'll then maybe switch to poly-locks at that point as I'll be messing with a couple other things over the winter. I'm just sick of waiting around for things at this point as the car has spent more time on jack stands than on the ground.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

KowalskiCW said:


> Nope PJ mine are stockers with the pressed type studs. I discovered I had threaded studs in my 350 I replaced but that's besides the point now.
> I will probably just get some new crimped nuts from my local Ace as I've seen them there...hopefully I'm remembering right. I just want a couple weeks of driving before MN winter hits! haha. I'll then maybe switch to poly-locks at that point as I'll be messing with a couple other things over the winter. I'm just sick of waiting around for things at this point as the car has spent more time on jack stands than on the ground.



You want to make sure you get "rocker arm" nuts, not just a standard SAE crimped lock nut. If you want to really go cheap, maybe locktite the rocker arm nuts when you torque them back down or put a nylock style nut on top of the rocker arm nut to keep it in place.

Know how you feel wanting to drive it before winter which is right around the corner for you. The weather here in NC has been horrid all summer. Searing mid-to-upper 90's with tropical type humidity OR flat out rain for days which ALWAYS seemed to be on the weekends. I just put up a simple A-frame type roof I built myself over my '68 Lemans as I don't have a garage and work on it out in the open. This year, I managed to pull the windshield exposing all the rot and pull off the 2 doors.....BIG WHOOP. Very disappointing year on my project build. With the roof, I can at least work under it without the sun or rain beating down on me. But like you, in moves the cold weather - from summer to winter.

Funny thing, even though I have not worked on the car, it has still cost me more money as I continue to buy things like all my add-on gauges, odds & ends, replacement panels to do repairs, and tools to do the repairs. Go figure. :yesnod:


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

If you have all factory stuff, there is no such thing as " setting the lash". Run all the nuts all the way down and then torque to 20 lb ft. 
Done. 

Bear


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Yea that's what the guy said I bought the motor from, but I thought there had to be more to it. This engine is actually a 1973(not 72 like post title) stock 455 with a mild cam bored 30 over. Stock stamped style rocker arms and pressed in studs with the shoulders on them just to reiterate. Maybe this winter I will put new rockers and crap on but for now I just wanna drive it cause I was teased with monster torque for 3 total drives and about 4 hrs before the ticking 
If I do that I at least need to do them while they are all at full closed right? From what I found if I find TDC on #1 I can tighten these INTAKE 1 2 5 7 and EXHAUST 1 3 4 8 then go to TDC on #6 and tighten these INTAKE 3 4 6 8 and EXHAUST 2 5 6 7
That sound right?
Either way I should not be able to freely spin the nut right? I feel like they should have some sort of drag on them...


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

> Yea that's what the guy said I bought the motor from, but I thought there had to be more to it.


Then you thought wrong. This is _not_ a Chevy. It really is that simple. Don't fiddle with sequence because in this case it doesn't matter. Torque them all down to 20 lb. ft. all at the same time and enjoy it. That's the reason those studs have those shoulders: to provide something to torque the nuts down onto. They're not designed to stay in one place with


> some sort of drag on them


 Torquing them down is the _only_ way they'll ever stay "adjusted".

If you want to be able to "adjust" them, then you have no choice - you MUST replace the nuts with poly-locks. Period.

Bear


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Yea at least I have a 2 car attached garage but when its -10 it doesn't matter it all sucks. So I just ordered rocker arm nuts from amazon. I should have them in 2 days and still get it together by the weekend at least with the right stuff. 
Good for you for building a roof over your head at least and that really sucks about rot. I know I've got quite a bit waiting for me when I fully restore the body down the road. Right now it's hidden by a wonderful Maaco(incase you don't know it's a dirt cheap $1000 paint job type place, by PO) paint job haha.
These cars do cost money even when not touching them and my wife seems to know that better than I do. Ignorance is bliss sometimes.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

... And really, unless you're planning on spinning the motor to the moon, there's no reason to try to optimize the adjustment. The reason people do that is to avoid the effects of hydraulic lifter "pump up" at high rpm. However, with a relatively stock 455 that's probably never going to see even 6000 rpm, maybe not even 5500, doing that is really wasted effort not to mention unnecessary expense for the required poly-locks.
Pontiac engineers knew what they were doing when they designed this setup. It's simple, doesn't require any sort of fancy procedures to adjust, and gets the job done just fine for the RPM ranges these engines were designed for.

Did you know that the only reason the small block chevy was able to be introduced in 1955 was because Pontiac agreed to allow them to "borrow" their ball and stud rocker design that they were intending to introduce into their production overhead valve V8 _one year earlier for model year 1954_, but Chevy managed to block its introduction because they couldn't get the valve train in their V8 to stay together?

They even tried to block Pontiac again in 1956, but relented when Pontiac said, "Ok fine. Give us back our rocker system."

Chevy has a long history of pulling that kind of crap. The Fiero was originally intended to have a V8, but Chevy threw a hissy fit over it because a V8 Fiero would have eaten the Corvette for breakfast, so those plans got nixed by GM corporate. The fact that it's relatively easy to swap an LS or an SBC into a Fiero is no accident.

Bear


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Wow that's awesome I can just torque and go! Thank you so much. I ordered the crimp nuts so I'll at least wait for that. You guys are awesome and man there are some great things about Pontiac for sure. I was always a Camaro guy myself but I think I'll enjoy the power of Pontiac from here on out.
Also that is some really interesting stuff about Chevy vs Pontiac no one really knows.
Thanks guys


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

If you have crimp nuts coming instead of poly locks (poly locks are the ones with the set screw in the center) --- then don't even open them. Just send them back. They aren't right for Pontiac.

Examples of poly-locks:
https://www.amazon.com/Proform-66935-Poly-Locks-Roller-Rocker/dp/B000CC9DHM

(Not endorsing that particular brand necessarily one way or the other, just using them as an example)

Here's one example of the poly lock adjustment process on a Pontiac





That's not the only way - in fact if you have a rowdy cam with a lot of duration it's not even the best way.

Bear


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

But PontiacJim just said this "If you have the 3/8" studs, you could try a new set of crimped lock nuts just to see if they may work better being new. Butler has them for $15 http://butlerperformance.com/i-25685...tegory:1234784"
So I ordered some...I'm not going with polylock this go around. Will they ruin my studs? I mean I can just torque down the nuts I have but you guys are saying after a few uses they are junk or am I getting something mixed up?


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Sorry maybe the confusion lies in the words I used. I said I ordered some crimped nuts...sorry. I ordered Rocker Arm nuts.
These
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CIS6LU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I hope those are right.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...am I getting something mixed up?..."

Yep.

You got it backwards.

The factory Pontiac nuts don't wear out. At least I've never seen any that wouldn't work. 

The Chevy type "crimp" nuts will probably be a little looser every time they are tightened and backed off. Some that I've bought were not tight enuff to stay put, even on the 1st time they were installed.

Those that you ordered are the crimp nuts, NOT the factory Pontiac type. Don't know that you can buy new stock type nuts. But there are probably lots of Pontiac guys who will give you all you want. 

This site shows a bottleneck stud & factory nut. Also says that the RA IV engines used BBC style 7/16 studs & crimp nuts. 

http://www.pontiacdiy.com/pontiac-v-8-engines-valvetrain-performance-guide/


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Ok I cancelled the order thanks guys. So I can just torque the stock ones back down and what hope they stay torqued again? Why did they come untorqued in the first place? What can I do to prevent it with stock rockers and nuts? I'm nit going to do the polylock if I don't have to. Thoughts?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

ARGH! I wish some would read the posts and not just jump in mid stream.

Pontiac torqued the rocker arm nuts, both screw-in studs and press-in studs.

The torque is 20 ft lbs per my '68 Service Manual. Period.

No need to worry about setting intake/exhaust valves as the rocker arm nuts get torqued down, not set to "zero lash." In doing the "zero lash" adjustment, it is best to use a poly lock as they will not back off if properly tightened down.

Poly locks can be tightened down with an allen wrench and box wrench. You don't need the "fancy" tool to do this. Never used the "fancy" tool in my life - just an allen wrench and box wrench. You will develop a "feel" for tightening them, but I provided a step-by-step way of doing this should you ever go with poly locks.

I went and got a factory Pontiac rocker arm nut from a 1972 455 with screw-in studs. Looking closely at the nut, there is no crimp on the nut that I could see. What I do see, and what I have read, is that the inside of the has a taper that matches the taper of the bottleneck shoulder. Now, this _could be_ made this way OR the taper is made by the force of the nut being torqued down into place and the taper is actually the "crush" of the threads on the inside of the nut - which is what I feel it is looking at it real close. The crush of the bottom thread may actually help to lock the nut in place along with the torque of 20 ft lbs.

That said, the aftermarket 3/8" rocker arm nuts are of the "crimped" type, or locking nut. These seem to be the standard in replacement nuts whether 3/8" or 7/16" - be it a Chevrolet replacement or any other make. The "crimped" rocker arm nuts would be my choice whether the factory nuts were backing off or not IF I were replacing them - and I have. The "crimped" nuts should provide an extra layer of protection along with torquing them down to 20 ft lbs so they do not back off, which was the experience of Mr. *KawalskiCW* .

I pointed out the 3/8" rocker arm nuts which Butler, a Pontiac engine builder and supplier of Pontiac parts, has up on his website - these are of the "crimped" type. http://butlerperformance.com/i-25685815-3-8-lock-nuts-pep-rm-1786-16.html?re
If they did not work, or were not to be used on a Pontiac head, then I would hope that Butler would not be selling parts that don't work or would damage the engine. The Comp Cams Pontiac roller rockers I purchased for my 455 came with both 3/8" and 7/16" "crimped" nuts as did my previous stamped set used on the earlier 400 I ran. I do not know anything about those rocker arm nuts offered on Amazon, but they should work.

What I did experience was that the "crimped" nuts did loosen up when I used the "zero-lash" method on my 400CI. It had a bigger than factory cam and heavier rated valve springs. So I removed these and went with poly locks and had no further issues with them backing off. So the lesson learned was that even the "crimped" nuts are not really meant to hold (at least on a Pontiac) if you "zero-lash" your valvetrain. 

Here is another tip to consider for anyone using the torque down method on the rocker arm nuts: "Torquing the adjusting nut per the old Chilton's to 20-25 ft pounds won't work on any heads that have been milled. This is especially true with the high lift cams of today. The valve train needs to be adjustable. Some form of lock nut must be used. I prefer Mr. Gasket's poly lock nuts."


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Hey PJ I appreciate all your info. Last night I tightened all the nuts down to 21ft lbs for the F of it. I don't have much driving time left anyways and I will start saving for some polylocks and maybe even an upgrade on the rockers themselves if it's worth it on these 455s. I don't want to go crazy but if I'm going poly locks I might as well go with roller tip right?
Ah crap I thought the cancel on Amazon would go thru but apparently it didn't and I'll have those new rocker nuts by tomorrow night. Guess I don't know what to do with them now but send them back as I already buttoned everything up.
I hope to fire it up tonight to see if it fixed my problem as it was too late to run it last night with the kids sleepin.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...if I'm going poly locks I might as well go with roller tip right?..."

I see no connection. You can run either stock or roller tips, with or without poly-locks. As mentioned, on most of my bracket racing engines, I ran stock rockers, bottleneck studs, & Mr. Gasket poly-locks. 

But, my last engine was built by somebody else. It has CC roller tips, 7/16 studs, & poly-locks.


"...if it's worth it on these 455s..."

Stock rockers are 1.5:1 ratio. The CC roller tips come in 1.52 & 1.65 ratio. If you go with the 1.52 rockers, it will increase the lift of your cam slightly. The 1.65 rockers will increase it quite a bit. Will actually act like a bigger cam. But, in order to use 1.65 rockers, the pushrod holes must be enlarged for clearance. You may also need stronger pushrods and valve springs. May cause other clearance problems. Not worth the hassle on mild street engines.

PRW makes roller tip rockers, which come with 7/16 poly-locks, and are cheaper than the Comp roller tips. But, I've read that the Comps are better quality. Can't verify. Just did a search. Didn't see any bad reviews of PRW rockers. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PRW-0845501...d=232439055372&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

https://www.amazon.com/PRW-0845501-Sportsman-Pontiac-287-455/dp/B004L2OWP2

http://www.jegs.com/i/PRW/228/08455..._cXRmE1x_qWZFKJ5R9a6-VwWAb9FtpJIaAugcEALw_wcB

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...prJ94iitKfnukw8hC_e-TyMqHocHpoqIaAkAVEALw_wcB


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

bigD about covered it. With your engine, and your budget (approved by the wife of course :blush2: ), there is no real need to spend extra cash on roller tip rockers. Stock stamped rockers are just fine. Your problem was the nuts backing off. If they hold this time, then well enough. You can still try the lock nuts unless you send them back. If the nuts do back off, THEN I would splurge for the poly locks, so see how it goes for a while as you get in some driving time. :thumbsup:


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

My concern about the crimp nuts is that they might give you a false torque reading and they aren't what these engines originally used. But, let's not lose sight of what the real objective is here - and that is to have the nuts stay where they're supposed to and not back off. Whatever makes that happen will make your engine happy. The factory system was designed to work as described and does not allow for any adjustment. It's a set it and forget it proposition. People get confused about that because of experience with chevy and think that because they look similar, they must work the same. They don't.

Remember a hydraulic lifter has an internal plunger such that the pushrod is actually riding on a cushion of oil. The combination of the oil feed hole in the lifter body and the passage through the pushrod up to the rocker (and another hole in the rocker pushrod pocket) provides a path for oil pressure to bleed off so that as metal engine parts heat up and expand/contract, the valve spring is still able to get the valve shut. The internal piston in the lifter is always "down a little" from its maximum height, and Pontiac engineers took all of these factors (rpm range, oil pressure, sizes of all the passages and what oil pressure bleed off rate would result) to design a rocker pivot height that would keep the internal plungers in the lifters where they needed to be - and fixed it there. However, with any hydraulic lifter system at very high rpm when oil pressure is at it's maximum and the pressure "bleed off time" is at its minimum, what can happen is the valve springs "don't have enough time" to force the valves closed against all that pressure and you get valve float. This is what is referred to as 'lifter pump up'. The purpose of the 'chevy' valve adjustment procedure for hydraulics is to try to get that internal lifter plunger as "high" as you can inside the lifter body and yet still work at 'normal' rpm in an effort to delay that effect (valve float) as long as possible. For the rpm range a mostly stock 455 is going to see, it's just not necessary. To get power out of a chevy, you have to spin it up to high rpm - not so with a Pontiac.

The main purpose of roller tip rockers is to reduce friction. Running the valve train in these engines (the energy it takes to operate the valve springs) is THE #1 source of parasitic power loss - even more than the friction of all the rotating and sliding parts - so freeing up power in the valve train is a good way to make more of it available at the crank.

Bear


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Well everyone I'll just stick with the stock nuts and rockers the rest of this season and see how she runs. I'll let you all know how the next few days go after I get to drive it. Frickin MN...it's gonna be 85 with 95 heat index! In two weeks it'll be 50 haha. 
Thank you so much guys, you've definitely put my mind at ease that I'm doing the right thing. I'll wait on putting money into the valve train if I don't have to.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

It's fixed! Thank God that's all it was, was loose nuts haha. The car fired right up with a new battery and ran great all afternoon today. I'm going to keep an ear on everything and fingers crossed it at least makes it through the rest of the driving season. Next is the rear end shhh don't tell the wife! Thanks everyone.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

KowalskiCW said:


> It's fixed! Thank God that's all it was, was loose nuts haha. The car fired right up with a new battery and ran great all afternoon today. I'm going to keep an ear on everything and fingers crossed it at least makes it through the rest of the driving season. Next is the rear end shhh don't tell the wife! Thanks everyone.


Wow, imagine that, the factory actually knew what they were doing AND it did not cost you any cash - (explaining the need to the wife is harder than coming up with the cash, right? LOL). I enjoy being single and having a car hobby. :bannana:

Yep, just keep an ear/check on the rocker arms and if they do back off, then the nuts will simply need to be replaced. But hopefully you are good to go and can get some more driving in for the season. :yesnod:

When you are ready for a rear end set-up, read through all the posts by *Pinion head* on the 8.5" 10-bolt and take notes as that is the way to go with your set-up. 

Save up for the UMI upper/lower control arm braces as well. https://www.google.com/search?q=UMI...074&bih=462&dpr=1.25#spd=14544651010289022367


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Man I searched for over 30mins for 8.5" or 8.5" 10 bolt or just 10 bolt and couldn't find anything much from Pinion Head. Am I using the advanced search wrong? I put those in the keywords and chose the 64-74 Category. Unless they are buried in other threads. 
Anyways what I have now is a 2.56 peg leg 10-bolt rear. I want to go to 3.08 or 3.23 posi. All I need is a new posi-trac carrier and gear set right? Along with the set up(shimming and mesh pattern checking oh and bearings and any seals of course) I have the TH400 with a 2000rpm torque converter. I feel I may have gone too high RPM with the mild build I've got. Any thoughts?


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Kowalski, your '69 LeMans would have come with a gray iron housing 8.2 Pontiac 10 bolt with sealed bearing axles. The gray iron 8.2's lack pinion support, the number one strength problem with them. One can throw away $1500 in new 8.2 Pontiac Eaton posi, expensive new R & P, new Moser axles, small parts & labor.... & the pinion area of the center housing will still lack pinion support = weak. Pontiac engineers recognized the limits of the gray iron 8.2 rear & starting in '67 Pontiac's central foundry cast its higher performance Pontiac 8.2 Safe-T-Track housings in nodular iron. This prevented some of the flex in the pinion area of the center housing. This nodular iron crutch worked fairly well under the higher horse light weight early RA & HO Firebirds. 

With the heavier performance A-body's, once Pontiac's large journal engines started getting close to 500 ft lbs of gross torque output, they dropped using even their best 8.2 10 bolt offerings, the HD 8.2 Safe-T-Tracks, & went to McKinnon (Canadian supplier) built 12 bolts. The McKinnon 12 bolts used a larger u-joint flange & slightly stronger than the std duty Chevelle c-clip axles. The optional Eaton posi's in these McKinnon 12 bolts was just the standard late 60's early '70's OEM usage Eaton 3 series posi carrier, complete with with small brittle spider gears. Once one's heavy performance A-body 12 bolt posi is hooking up, the brittle oem spider/side gear combination is the weak link. Years ago, one of my 455 HO keeper cars actually broke its lh axle at the track & boogered up the 1/4, not a pretty sight. To prevent this problem, I've replaced in numerous oem 12 bolt posi carriers, the side gears & spiders with a special alloy heat treated set. Buick & Olds joined forces & brought out the 8.5 A-bodyrears for their '71 models. Little over a million of three different style '71-72 8.5 A-body rears were manufactured. As far as cores go, it's very difficult to find one that wasn't originally a 2.56 or 2.73 peg leg. Many many more putt around 6 cyl & 350 engined Skylarks & Cutlasses were built than 455 Buick GS's & W30 442's, thus, along with the desire for many different ratios, a large need to custom build to buyers request.

The 8.5 A-body housings I build off of, not only has more pinion support than a stock GM 12 bolt, but stock they come with tapered wheel bearing axles which don't seize, chew up the axle under the bearing & demand replacing like the previous sealed axle bearing axles.. The oem 8.5 A-body 28 spline axles have proven to hold up in 3700-3800 lbs A-body's into the high 11's in the 1/4 behind well modified 455-469 Pontiacs/turbo 400 combinations. Once such a heavy A-body is set up with a combination to possibly run that quick or quicker, or be anywhere near that quick with a manual transmission, I typically build with a 30 spline Eaton carrier & 30 spline custom Moser axles.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Well damn PH you really know your sh*t but also just crushed my dreams! haha No I get it I will have to do some searching for a rear end. I had a 95 Camaro and swapped out the carrier for a posi unit and everything turned out awesome so I thought it would be that simple as long as the rear end could handle it. I've got 2 awesome Pontiac connections out by me so I'll reach out to them and ask if they've got something that would work for me layin around. I appreciate the response. I did see parts of what you said above in random searches but not all together in one post.
So even if I have a very mild 1973 462 with what 8.2:1 compression and my set up just tossing a new carrier and 3.08s is still a bad idea? I really didn't want to do axles and all that and definitely didn't want to swap entire rear ends. Maybe at that point I step up to a GM with disc brakes since I already have disc in the front. What ones are compatible? newish Camaro? Impala? Firebird?


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...if I have a very mild 1973 462 with what 8.2:1 compression and my set up just tossing a new carrier and 3.08s is still a bad idea?..."


I can only speak from my limited experience. Raced my 4-speed 400 69 GTO for 2 seasons +. The 2nd season it had sticky cheater slicks. Finally got it down into the 12's, on 9" slicks. Still had the original 8.2 3.90 posi rear. 

Later had a '68 Bird bracket car with a '70 GTO 455 & TH400/stock converter. The rear end I used was a Buick 8.2 with 3.64 gears, if I remember correctly. Had 13 x 30 slicks. Ran consistent mid 12's. Worked just fine for nearly a whole season, then broke the pinion & oiled down the track. 

Recently had a '74 Ventura bracket car, with a decent 455, TH400/10" converter. It had ladder bars & hooked up good on 9" slicks. Ran 7.30's on our local 1/8 mile track. I'd bought the car race ready, sort of. I assumed it had a 12-bolt or an 8.5. Never even bothered to look at it, close enuff to ID it. Just before I sold the roller, I rolled around under it to take a look. To my surprise, it had a Chevy 8.2 10-bolt. I've always read & heard that the 8.2 Chevy was even weaker than the BOP 8.2. 

But hey, it worked just fine for me. And the guy I bought it from said he had been running 11.90's with it, at the Topeka, Kansas track. So, as with lots of other parts, experiences differ. I wouldn't be afraid to run an 8.2, on the street, with hard tires. But, if I ever planned to run sticky tires, behind a 455, I'd go with at least an 8.5. Probably wouldn't spend any big bucks on beefing up an 8.2. 

If I needed a strong rear, I'd most likely go with a properly built 9" Ford. Not gonna get into a discussion of which rear end is best. But the 9" Ford is probably the most popular rear end for street rods, street/strip, and race cars. 2 of the big advantages are the removable chunk, and the wide variety of gear ratios. There are LOTS of parts available, for the 9". And LOTS of vendors who sell 9" parts & complete rears. 

The Dana 60 has a few advantages, but not as many as the 9". So, to me, the 9" inch is the best one to go with, if you're gonna have to put some serious $$ into a rear. There are decent lookin complete 9" rears, online, for between 2 & $3,000. But, you can also find some for closer to $4k. I think that for less than $3000, shipped, you can buy a complete rear that will hold up to anything a mild 455 can dish out, street & strip. But, if you can spend less than $2k total, shipped, that changes things a bit. Might have to find something used, from a guy who needs some quick cash. 

Hey, back in the old days, I'd just buy a 12-bolt, out of an SS Chevelle and race it. Never broke one. Most of my 455's had aprox 400hp & 500ft lbs of torque. Ran TH400 & stock converter in most of 'em. More power would probably require a stronger rear. I just never put enuff power to the rear to brake a 12-bolt or a stock axle of any kind. :smile3:


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Yea BigD that's kinda what I'm hoping for at this point. I'm running plain ol Cooper Cobras and they break loose pretty darn easy. I can't imagine they put much strain on the rear from that end of things. I'll keep looking into things and see if I can at least find a cheap 12 bolt for a little more assurance. I assume I'll have to take the entire rear out anyways to do the new gears so if I can find one I'll do the swap...If not I think I'll just go for it and just go with 3.08s and posi and make sure it's set up well and new bearings and seals and good rear gear fluid. If it breaks then I'll kick myself, if it doesn't then I'll be happy and keep drivin right?!


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Having read this helpful information (more like noise) from BigD several times, decided I just cannot let it ride, the comparisons are far from applicable. 




bigD said:


> I can only speak from my limited experience. Raced my 4-speed 400 69 GTO for 2 seasons +. The 2nd season it had sticky cheater slicks. Finally got it down into the 12's, on 9" slicks. Still had the original 8.2 3.90 posi rear.


Limited experience indeed. To qualify this response for anyone that that may be following, a 3.90 posi rearend in a RAIII GTO was an original HD Safe-T-Track 8.2 Pontiac rear, Nodular iron center housing, factory HD forged axles.. The best Pontiac offered fitself back it's 400 offerings. As original owner, in Don's timeline, "got it down into the 12's.... the GTO had to have had its* original RAIII 400 engine in it. Far from a common gray iron center housing 8.2 Pontiac rearend that could be subjected to far more torque than it was designed for.



bigD said:


> . Later had a '68 Bird bracket car with a '70 GTO 455 & TH400/stock converter. The rear end I used was a Buick 8.2 with 3.64 gears, if I remember correctly. Had 13 x 30 slicks. Ran consistent mid 12's. Worked just fine for nearly a whole season, then broke the pinion & oiled down the track.


Haveread before Don's account of this late BUICK 8.25 eventually blowing up after a season of being thrashed on at the strips. Again, for the reader who does not know much about GM muscle era differentials, this rear is was not a common gray iron Pontiac 8.2 10 bolt or an early Buick 8.2 10 bolt, but what many would consider the heavier duty late style '68-70 8.25 BUICK differential, which as a 3.64 would have most likely come out of a Stage 1 GS. The '68-70 BUICK 8.25 rears had several revisions, but still lacked crucial pinion support! To the layman, it should be noted, that nothing internally can be easily swapped out from a '68-70 BUICK rear into a common Pontiac 8.2 10 bolt. From a performance GM rear builder's perspective, a desirable GS rearend that like many A-body rears from that era got the whack & hack treatment to be able to bolt into an early F-body. Again, an apples & oranges comparison of strength, a recollection thrown into a topic where gray iron 8.2's and 455 equipped 3700-4000 lb A-body were being discussed. From my experience building many many different styles of 8.2 rearends, very littledirectly correlates comparing the strength to one in a leaf spring rear in a gutted early F-body or Nova budget bracket car.



bigD said:


> Recently had a '74 Ventura bracket car, with a decent 455, TH400/10" converter. It had ladder bars & hooked up good on 9" slicks. Ran 7.30's on our local 1/8 mile track. I'd bought the car race ready, sort of. I assumed it had a 12-bolt or an 8.5. Never even bothered to look at it, close enuff to ID it. Just before I sold the roller, I rolled around under it to take a look. To my surprise, it had a Chevy 8.2 10-bolt. I've always read & heard that the 8.2 Chevy was even weaker than the BOP 8.2.
> 
> But hey, it worked just fine for me. And the guy I bought it from said he had been running 11.90's with it, at the Topeka, Kansas track. So, as with lots of other parts, experiences differ. I wouldn't be afraid to run an 8.2, on the street, with hard tires. But, if I ever planned to run sticky tires, behind a 455, I'd go with at least an 8.5. Probably wouldn't spend any big bucks on beefing up an 8.2.


Please explain what is a BOP 8.2, is it smart to lump several different strengths of rearends together? 
In factual terms, there were early Buick 8.2's & Pontiac 8.2's with their own design housings, the early gray iron Pontiac 8.2's had extra ribbing in the pinion nose area, the early Buick 8.2's were extra weak. By '68, there were Type "O" Olds, '68-70 BUICK 8.25's, & finally by late '69, the late Pontiac 8.2 10 bolt. 

The Chevy 8.2 c -clip is weak, designed by Chevy for its divisions low horse & low torque offerings. In a heavier weight high torque application A-body at the track, the 8.2 Chebby would have been toast, noted many failing on the street, too much torque & too small a pinion gear. Have examined dozens of blown up Chebby 8.2's, had numerous of them hauled in here...can you fix it? Don notes a 8.2 Chebby was actually under the '74 Ventura. Even being a gutted lightweight leaf spring X-body, i will present he was very lucky it held up. I don't buy the hard street tire exclusion, as have examined busted ring & pinion gears in 8.2 rears that were driven hard on the street & the owners werent running Mickey T's or other sticky street tires out back.
From my experience rebuilding the HD nodular iron HD Safe-T-Track 8.2 Firebird & GTO rears (& would bet other longtime builders would agree) that HD 8.2 rear seems to hold up much better in the lighter weight leaf spring Firebirds. The same construction nodular iron center housing HD STT 8.2 rear, but out of a GTO, have picked through the pieces from several that were scattered at the track in the high 11's, low 12's on 9" slicks. In a footbraked lightweight F & X-body with leaf spring rear, one def is going to have more safety margin than in a much heavier high torque engined A-body, thus Don has again supplied us another apples and oranges r/e strength example.



bigD said:


> If I needed a strong rear, I'd most likely go with a properly built 9" Ford. Not gonna get into a discussion of which rear end is best. But the 9" Ford is probably the most popular rear end for street rods, street/strip, and race cars. 2 of the big advantages are the removable chunk, and the wide variety of gear ratios. There are LOTS of parts available, for the 9". And LOTS of vendors who sell 9" parts & complete rears.


To make it clear, a properly built Ford 9", one with a nodular iron center housing, daytona pinion support, a HD 31 spline posi unit, as well as a quality new axles is going to run, at best, in the neighborhood of $2200-2300. To be so flexible, ratio wise, with the drop out third member, another nodular iron 3rd member will be needed... one with another ratio of gears set up either with a spool or HD posi unit, that is going to run another $800-1500. As an A-body housing fabricated to fit in a GM A-body vehicle, the 9" will require at the minimum, aftermarket adjustable upper control arms. Add another couple hundred dollars. Does this really sound like a really good deal? So all the folks with a GM A-body, the mainly street/occasionally strip driven car that might, just might, after a TON of hard work sorting out an engine/trans & suspension setup, that A-body might run down into the 11's... they all need to save their quarters & maybe some day they too can have that novel rearend in their GM A-body. Totally ridiculous reasoning considering what can be built, that will more than live at that level in a HD 8.5 A-body rear or in an upgraded 12 bolt, & for a fraction of the price.

Having sourced & built numerous well prepared 9" Ford rears, they have a place. IF, I was building a heavily modified Pontiac A-body drag car that was going to see trans brake launches, possibly pull mid 1.30 sec or quicker 60 ft times, & I had the need for multiple rear gear ratio swaps, due to my running various length tracks, etc,* there would be a very well built 9" Ford rear under the car. There are many GM musclecar owners whose cars see quite a bit of track duty, but don't fit the above description, never will, & simply put, many don't want a Ford drop out 3rd member style rearend in their car. The perceived need for many for a 9" Ford rear is driven by many things, popular automotive culture, magazines, heavy advertising, etc. 



bigD said:


> hey, back in the old days, I'd just buy a 12-bolt, out of an SS Chevelle and race it. Never broke one. Most of my 455's had aprox 400hp & 500ft lbs of torque. Ran TH400 & stock converter in most of 'em. More power would probably require a stronger rear. I just never put enuff power to the rear to brake a 12-bolt or a stock axle of any kind.


Must have not been putting much power to the ground in a heavy A-body or heavy 2nd Gen.. Anyone that has not experienced breaking a stock standard duty 12 bolt axle (std duty was used in nearly all original 12 bolts) or has not blown up the brittle small spider gears in a original muscle era common style Eaton posi carrier, simply hasn't had a lot of experience running with a common 12 bolt posi rear at the track. Have had well over two hundred fifty Chevy 12 bolt posi rears go through my hands, have over a dozen A & F 12 bolt hsgs in the racks right now to be built. Over the years, have had at least a dozen locals come to me needing another stock 12 bolt axle "to get by". Their high to mid 12 sec- low 13 sec 3800-4000lb 2nd Gen F-body or A-body had either broken or were twisting the stock axles. Time after time, have cked stock 12 bolt axle flanges for run out. Then, if good, taken out the steel rule, paint penned & followed up with WeatherProof, down the length of the axle. Have done this on litterally dozens of relatively low mile stock 12 bolts axles before installing, or selling, or trading one off. Always with the same disclaimer, use at your own risk. With the long paint penned line, at least that way, the owners could pull an axle & keep an eye on the twist of the axle. For the last decade, every performance 12 bolt I assemble gets a new pair of Moser axles, no questionable quality Chinese axles, am also beyond done with using standard duty used 12 bolt axles in builds. 

Would have loved to have had the time to complete this response earlier (was in my files)
The above was as enjoyable to respond to, as I'm sure it was to read (not really). Am just so disgusted with the deluge of googled links & bogus information that one "contributor" constantly puts up. This really galls me when I do come in and take time to provide factual hands on tech information derived from multiple thousands of hours of actual hands on experience.


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## KowalskiCW (Jul 11, 2016)

Well damn PH! That's some serious knowledge. Ok riddle me this then. As my wife starts freaking out as to how much I'm blowing on the "project" car. What is my cheapest path to getting Posi and 3.08-3.23 gearing in this 69 Lemans that is more than stuffing it into this gray iron 8.2 but short of getting a full blow Ford 9"? I know you keep saying spend the money and do it right and I really want to but I also have to work within my means and...well it's a Lemans afterall not a GTO bracket racer or anything. I just wanna have fun and get sideways once in a while. Thoughts?


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Well PH, you've expressed your dislike for me several times. At this point, I could care less. 

But since you obviously have superior knowledge of all things Pontiac, vast experience building rear ends, and many racks full of almost every conceivable Pontiac performance part, I'd like to see you offer a recipe for the rear end the OP needs, as well as EXACTLY what you would charge him for it, including the shipping cost. 

You may be able to supply him with exactly what he needs & save him some $$, too. 

I consider that a good thing if you can help a Pontiac guy get the parts he needs AND save him a few bucks at the same time.


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Will be sending Kowalski a PM. Am doing FedEx right now, has to be out in 45 minutes.

Have tried very hard Don to converse with you in a civil manner just like I would any other Pontiac guy I was truly trying to help with info derived from actual hands on knowledge. Actually, forwarded you my cell phone number at one time trying to get closer to the same page. Factual hardcore results oriented responses is what i bring to the table. not loose opinions derived from who knows where, but so many times an infatuation with Google, scanning Craigslist & eBay for prices, & posting on half a dozen bulletin boards using a monstrous list of links that comes off on a website like 6 paragraphs of capitalized text...


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## john23 (Mar 6, 2016)

at the risk of throwing gas on this fire...i quickly scanned the comments and didn't see mention of this...in the perennial 9 inch vs 12 bolt debate...the consensus among racers and builders that i have spoken to is this....the 9 in is stronger and has the dropout center section....however the 12 bolt is physically lighter and has less thru loss because of its design....it costs major money to performance build either.....in a big power car with big slicks, transbrake, etc. hitting the tires hard...go with the 9 inch...if you have a street/strip car running DOTs, even down into the 11 second range, the 12 bolt will make your car quicker, and if properly built, will last a long time...for any milder performance car the 9 inch is overkill...


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