# Another annoying new guy...



## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Yes, another one of those newbie threads asking basic questions... I'm "in the market" for a daily driver, getting rid of my 2005 F150 Lariat supercrew 4x4... Can't stand driving a 3-ton school bus. My wife made me give up my '00 Lightning for it when we had our last daughter, supposedly I needed the extra room... Well, as it turns out I hardly EVER have anyone in the back seats, and she's finally given me the thumbs-up to pitch the gawdawful tank for something FUN to drive...

I'm considering getting back into the beloved Lightning (high 12's with simple mods, and you can haul stuff), but I don't want anything with more than 20K miles, which is not easy to find...

I'm also considering a "new" '06 Goat (one of the leftovers that are languishing on lots), or a new '07 Mustang GT.

The GTO's currently have $3000 cash-back available, BUT, the dealers seem to be damn stingy on coming off the price much (After speaking with several poncho dealers, I now understand why the GTO sold so lousy... greaseball new car dealerships don't know how the "real world works" with enthusiasts).. Call me crazy, but regardless of them being "extinct", they are still on the fringe of being 2-year-old models, most have several-hundred test-drive miles on them, and they've been cooking in the elements on lots for 1-2 years... Going in, I thought I'd be able to pick up an '06 for a screaming deal... Thusfar, I'm only getting "invoice", which has gotten to be a joke, as it's only about $1500 bucks under MSRP...

1. Are there any dealers on this forum that could educate me on what the STRAIGHT SCOOP is with the pricing on these? Specifically, is there a residual, or hold-back, that the dealer gets post-sale? Seems that in the last 4-5 years both Ford and GM have shredded the margin between retail and dealer-invoice, causing me to suspect funny-business, i.e. the dealer invoice amount being a contrived figure, and the dealer gets a decent hold-back after the sale. I'm in need of some negotiating leverage...

2. Am I right in thinking that an automatic is the way to go? I've not driven the 6-speed, but everything I've read states that the pedals are in a foul position, the throws are long, and the shifter lousy... I'm a die-hard stick-shift guy, but I'm also damn picky... My weekend car is a 2005 Carrera S, which is the holy-grail of stick-shift driving, so I think if I bought the 6-speed Goat, it would annoy me to tears. I drove the auto, and it was super... Responsive and quick downshifts, intuitive, nice....

3. What kind of 1/4 mile e.t.'s and trap-speeds can I expect bone-stock with the auto?

Lastly, anyone here with a mega-low-mile Goat interested in trading for a spotless and loaded-to-the-gills 4X4 Lariat??  

And for any adolescents out there who feel like gigging me for considering blue-oval stuff, bite me... I've got plenty of classic GM iron, including a top-drawer Tyrol Blue '67 GTO H.O. 4-speed... I like all American cars, there's too many nice cars out there to be brand-loyal...


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

*Welcome to the Forum 69Bossnine :cheers 

Regarding pricing, IMO dealers who are carrying the last of the inventory want as much as they can get. I guess they think there is still some who will pay whatever to grab the last of these and they will sacrifice inventory $ to keep it until some one is willing to be reamed. Many 06' owners report getting really great deals of 28K or so while inventories were higher than now. Others are experiencing the same BS you are. Makes no sense to me why a dealer will offer 0% financing at 31K but not under 30K, same as the rebate. It's the ole numbers game, 3K in rebates is nothing if they keep the price at 32K. I agree, a car sitting on a lot for a year or better baking under the sun with 200 test miles on it is the same as used, at least that's my opinion. Depending on just how much you want the car and how much you are willing to pay per month will determine if the car is in your $ range. For me I would not bite on a car for 30K that has been getting driven and sitting. I would not feel comfortable paying more than about 28K before 3K in rebates. The fact some dealers are playing games with 0% financing tells me they are holding out for the right fool. 

As far as Auto vs. Stick: I am a manual fan as well, and I have experienced no problems with placement of the pedals, or shifting. The throws are not that long mine are still tight at 23K. It will loosen up a bit once broken in. If you can find one test driven at a few hundred miles that may indicate to you the actual feel. Some guys have went to the rip shifter. For me personally I have no complaints. I love my M6. It's a matter of taste and what you consider your comfort feel of it. If I had to chose again M6 or A4, I'd again go M6. This is just my preference. If you are worried about the M6, and you love the A4 then go Automatic. Beware though you'll have an extra $1300 in gas guzzlers tax to contend with. About half of the rebate will go towards this tax.

As far as 1/4 times, if you plan on racing it and want the edge, the A4 as reported will do slightly better. Low 13's in the 1/4 is what it's rated as. If you are not going to race it, so what. 

I love mine and would do it all over again.... If it makes you feel better in pricing.... I ordered mine Jan of 2005. At that time I got a good deal, 31.2K. Would I order again? Hell NO. After seeing what others got, I got reamed too. But when ordering that's the chance you take. I wanted what I wanted, not what I could find. Good Luck with your decision, and getting the right deal for you. *


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

Doesn't matter what other people think about what kind of price they can get -- it's all up to how you negotiate. If you can get a 400 hp GTO for invoice minus $3000 -- then buy it -- because what else are you possible going to get for the same dough?

As for the stick, get it. You can put on an aftermarket shifter and it will be fine.

As for Pontiac dealers, yes, they're pretty much morons. They destroyed all the momentum at launch by trying to get $10,000 over sticker -- and, as you can see, are holding out until the bitter end...


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Thanks GTO judge... Your thoughts about what the prices "should be" given the miles and the sitting around on lots getting baked and power-hosed and drip-dried and all the undercarriage/chassis fasteners and components turning orange is EXACTLY what my sensibilities were telling me...

For a shelf-worn 2-year old car, I too went in expecting around $28K, and then the rebates... I'm three grand off it appears.

Am I being cheap? Yeah, maybe... But this isn't a life or death matter for me, I don't HAVE to get the car, I'm not losing sleep over it, It's not as if I don't have FASTER cars already sitting around in my stable (my 507 h.p. '97 S351 Saleen is my old-school tire-fryer...). I'm just looking for a daily beater that I enjoy driving, and it's just my nature to only spend SMART money... Nobody ever got rich letting their emotions write the checks... I've also got a ton of experience in buying limited-production iron off the new-car lot on-the-cheap... Most recently, a 2004 SRT-10 Ram for $36K (only 160 miles on it), and a 2006 SSR 6-speed, loaded, for $37K, 220 miles on it... Maybe I'm addicted to the "hunt", getting the hot deal, but when you add it all up over the long-term, it winds up being a pile of dough saved just by being smart and PATIENT.

Knowing what I know about collectible cars, when they're new, and what happens in the ensuing few years, paying what they're asking for a set-around GTO isn't "feeling right", regardless of the fact I'd be paying cash for the car. 

What else can I get for the same dough?? Well, as I said, I've got my ear to the ground for a low-mile Lightning, and I'm also thinking that maybe a USED '06 GTO, with less than 5K miles on it, in the mid-$20's, would be a SMARTER purchase in that it's probably had a better and more pampered life than the test-driven-to-death crusties left on the lots...

The Mustang GT idea is attractive because they're cheap, but sure, I'd prefer the LS2... But wth, that's what aftermarket performance parts are for...

I'll figger it out...


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## CYCLONED (Jul 14, 2007)

Heel/toe shifting is next to imposible, so you are right about the foul positioning of the pedals. I've driven Porsche's and I know that "holy grail of shifters" you are referring to. I would suggest that you test drive the manual. I own the 6 speed and sure the gear box/shifter is a little sloppy, but its also fun. Like the other two posts suggested, getting an after market shifter would shorten the throws and feel more precise.


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## trejac (Jun 26, 2007)

Bought my 06 in May of this year. Had 84 mi on it. With rebates and 0% financing paid just under 30. Love it! New shifter will make the M6 fun. I find longer ways to go to work daily. Cold air kit and a tune will also make the goat more fun. Don't know how mine was cared for during the 9 mo. or so it sat on the lot but I haven't found any holes yet (5K on the speedometer). However, if you do need to carry stuff, the goat's trunk ain't the place. Staff bag and clubs fit, barely. The rest of the four some has to find some other way to get to the course.


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## BV GTO (Jul 14, 2006)

Talk to the fleet manager. He/she should be able to look up more discounts for you. 
that's what did when I got my 06 last year for an out the door price way under the MSRP on the Mulroney sticker.


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## noz34me (Dec 15, 2005)

My opinion, every day it sits on that lot, it's worth less. If dealers are trying to convince you otherwise, they are full of crap.

All one has to do is look at what the used ones are selling for; low 20's for an '05, way less for an '04. Frankly, I wouldn't pay more than a $1000 premium for an '06 over an '05. There just isn't that much difference.


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## noz34me (Dec 15, 2005)

One other comment, you can say what you want about not liking the placement of pedals or throw of the shifter, the fact is the autos do not sell nearly as well as the stick.

Check Pontiac.com for remaining '06's; you will see what I mean. Also, some dealers don't even want the auto's on trade- -


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Yeah, I've been using the locater tool on pontiac.com as my main search method... Mostly autos... Mostly "blah" color combos... I was wanting either black-metallic or silver, with the red interior... I'm fairly ambivalent on the wheels, the "get every damn upgrade and option" side of me wants the 18's, the aesthetic side of me says the 17's are a bit better looking wheel... The wheels are one thing I've not been able to reconcile in my head...

Went and drove an '07 Mustang GT over lunch... It was just alright... it was an auto, not as quick to respond as the GTO auto, decent scoot with the pedal mashed, but not too spectacular for normal driving, and the interior materials were alot cheaper, and the ride and feeling of refinement was not on-par with the Goat... Exterior styling is definately better with the Ford, but to each their own, I'm not trying to start a brawl..


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## noz34me (Dec 15, 2005)

69bossnine said:


> Went and drove an '07 Mustang GT over lunch... It was just alright... it was an auto, not as quick to respond as the GTO auto, decent scoot with the pedal mashed, but not too spectacular for normal driving, and the interior materials were alot cheaper, and the ride and feeling of refinement was not on-par with the Goat... Exterior styling is definately better with the Ford, but to each their own, I'm not trying to start a brawl..


:agree 

It's a shame domestic manufacturers just have a hard time getting the total package right- - -


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## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

*Here's the remaining dozen of new 06 M6 GTO's east of the Mississippi River*

Plenty of auto's in every color but this was all I found for m6 trans via Pontiac.com. 
1) A PBM m6 in MA.

2006 Gto Coupe 2 door notchback
Engine: ENGINE,6.0L V8 SFI 
Transmission: TRANSMISSION, MAN 6 SPD 
Exterior: Phantom Black Metallic 
Interior: Trim Combination Leather 
VIN#: 6G2VX12U06L556234
MARTY'S GMC SALES & SERVICE
5 INDEPENDENCE MALL WAY
KINGSTON, MA 02364-3023
GM Certified Internet Manager:
Christine Alicandro
(781) 585-7570
STANDARD VEHICLE PRICE*:$31,290.00
TRANSMISSION, 6-SPEED MANUAL $695.00 
TOTAL OPTIONS:$695.00
TOTAL VEHICLE & OPTIONS:$31,985.00
DESTINATION CHARGE:$700.00
Total vehicle Prices*:$32,685.00
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

2) A QSM/ red/ m6 in PA;

2006 Gto Coupe 2 door notchback
Engine: ENGINE,6.0L V8 SFI 
Transmission: TRANSMISSION, MAN 6 SPD 
Exterior: Quicksilver Metallic 
Interior: Redhot,combination Trim Leather 
VIN#: 6G2VX12U36L559368
#1 COCHRAN OF ROBINSON TOWNSHIP
5200 CAMPBELLS RUN RD
PITTSBURGH, PA 15205-9736
GM Certified Internet Manager:
Justin Taylor
(412) 788-4444
STANDARD VEHICLE PRICE*:$31,290.00
TRANSMISSION, 6-SPEED MANUAL $695.00 
TOTAL OPTIONS:$695.00
TOTAL VEHICLE & OPTIONS:$31,985.00
DESTINATION CHARGE:$700.00
Total vehicle Prices*:$32,685.00
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

3) A QSM m6 in NJ.

2006 Gto Coupe 2 door notchback
Engine: ENGINE,6.0L V8 SFI 
Transmission: TRANSMISSION, MAN 6 SPD 
Exterior: Quicksilver Metallic 
Interior: Trim Combination Leather 
VIN#: 6G2VX12U86L561214
LESTER GLENN BUICK-PONTIAC-GMC
230 RTE 37 E
TOMS RIVER, NJ 08753-5589
GM Certified Internet Manager:
Jenn Alio
(732) 349-4200
STANDARD VEHICLE PRICE*:$31,290.00
TRANSMISSION, 6-SPEED MANUAL $695.00 
TOTAL OPTIONS:$695.00
TOTAL VEHICLE & OPTIONS:$31,985.00
DESTINATION CHARGE:$700.00
Total vehicle Prices*:$32,685.00
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

4) A TR m6 in CT.

2006 Gto Coupe 2 door notchback
Engine: ENGINE,6.0L V8 SFI 
Transmission: TRANSMISSION, MAN 6 SPD 
Exterior: Torrid Red 
Interior: Trim Combination Leather 
VIN#: 6G2VX12UX6L815344
BUICK PONTIAC GMC OF MILFORD
750 BRIDGEPORT AVE
MILFORD, CT 06460-3107
GM Certified Internet Manager:
Aaron Strane
(203) 878-4661
STANDARD VEHICLE PRICE*:$31,290.00
TRANSMISSION, 6-SPEED MANUAL $695.00 
TOTAL OPTIONS:$695.00
TOTAL VEHICLE & OPTIONS:$31,985.00
DESTINATION CHARGE:$700.00
Total vehicle Prices*:$32,685.00
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

5) A SRM m6 with 18's in OH.

2006 Gto Coupe 2 door notchback
Engine: ENGINE,6.0L V8 SFI 
Transmission: TRANSMISSION, MAN 6 SPD 
Exterior: Spice Red Metallic 
Interior: Trim Combination Leather 
VIN#: 6G2VX12U86L545210
SPITZER AUTOWORLD CANTON, LLC
949 CLEVELAND AVE NW
CANTON, OH 44702-1843
GM Certified Internet Manager:
SPITZER AUTOWORLD CANTON, LLC 
(330) 456-7231
STANDARD VEHICLE PRICE*:$31,290.00
TRANSMISSION, 6-SPEED MANUAL $695.00 
18" ALUMINUM PAINTED WHEELS $495.00 
TOTAL OPTIONS:$1,190.00
TOTAL VEHICLE & OPTIONS:$32,480.00
DESTINATION CHARGE:$700.00
Total vehicle Prices*:$33,180.00
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

6) A TR with m6 and 18's in OH.

2006 Gto Coupe 2 door notchback
Engine: ENGINE,6.0L V8 SFI 
Transmission: TRANSMISSION, MAN 6 SPD 
Exterior: Torrid Red 
Interior: Trim Combination Leather 
VIN#: 6G2VX12U36L518593
DECOSKY MOTOR HOLDINGS, INC.
510 HARCOURT RD
MOUNT VERNON, OH 43050-3920
GM Certified Internet Manager:
Connie Stull
(740) 397-9122
STANDARD VEHICLE PRICE*:$31,290.00
TRANSMISSION, 6-SPEED MANUAL
18" ALUMINUM PAINTED WHEELS
TOTAL OPTIONS:$1,190.00
TOTAL VEHICLE & OPTIONS:$32,480.00
DESTINATION CHARGE:$700.00
Total vehicle Prices*:$33,180.00
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

7) A TR with m6 and 18's in IN.

2006 Gto Coupe 2 door notchback
Engine: ENGINE,6.0L V8 SFI 
Transmission: TRANSMISSION, MAN 6 SPD 
Exterior: Torrid Red 
Interior: Trim Combination Leather 
VIN#: 6G2VX12U46L518537
CONKLE PONTIAC-GMC
2828 E MARKLAND AVE
KOKOMO, IN 46901-6668
GM Certified Internet Manager:
Stephanie Blackman
(765) 457-1186
STANDARD VEHICLE PRICE*:$31,290.00
TRANSMISSION, 6-SPEED MANUAL
18" ALUMINUM PAINTED WHEELS
TOTAL OPTIONS:$1,190.00
TOTAL VEHICLE & OPTIONS:$32,480.00
DESTINATION CHARGE:$700.00
Total vehicle Prices*:$33,180.00
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

8) A SRM m6 with 18's in IL.

2006 Gto Coupe 2 door notchback
Engine: ENGINE,6.0L V8 SFI 
Transmission: TRANSMISSION, MAN 6 SPD 
Exterior: Spice Red Metallic 
Interior: Trim Combination Leather 
VIN#: 6G2VX12U06L552099
HAGGERTY PONTIAC-GMC
300 W ROOSEVELT RD
VILLA PARK, IL 60181-3590
GM Certified Internet Manager:
Tom Carrozzo
(630) 279-2000
STANDARD VEHICLE PRICE*:$31,290.00
TRANSMISSION, 6-SPEED MANUAL $695.00 
18" ALUMINUM PAINTED WHEELS $495.00 
TOTAL OPTIONS:$1,190.00
TOTAL VEHICLE & OPTIONS:$32,480.00
DESTINATION CHARGE:$700.00
Total vehicle Prices*:$33,180.00
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

9) A QSM m6 in SC

2006 Gto Coupe 2 door notchback
Engine: ENGINE,6.0L V8 SFI 
Transmission: TRANSMISSION, MAN 6 SPD 
Exterior: Quicksilver Metallic 
Interior: Trim Combination Leather 
VIN#: 6G2VX12UX6L548660
MCELVEEN PONTIAC-BUICK-GMC TRUCK, INC.
117 FARMINGTON ROAD
SUMMERVILLE, SC 29483
GM Certified Internet Manager:
Steve Howard
(843) 871-6800
STANDARD VEHICLE PRICE*:$31,290.00
TRANSMISSION, 6-SPEED MANUAL $695.00 
18" ALUMINUM PAINTED WHEELS $495.00 
TOTAL OPTIONS:$1,190.00
TOTAL VEHICLE & OPTIONS:$32,480.00
DESTINATION CHARGE:$700.00
Total vehicle Prices*:$33,180.00
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

10) A TR m6 in TN.

2006 Gto Coupe 2 door notchback
Engine: ENGINE,6.0L V8 SFI 
Transmission: TRANSMISSION, MAN 6 SPD 
Exterior: Torrid Red 
Interior: Trim Combination Leather 
VIN#: 6G2VX12U16L811893
NEILL-SANDLER BUICK-PONTIAC-GMC TRUCK, INC.
2240 NW BROAD ST
MURFREESBORO, TN 37129-2908
GM Certified Internet Manager:
NEILL-SANDLER BUICK-PONTIAC-GMC TRUCK, INC. 
(615) 893-1333
STANDARD VEHICLE PRICE*:$31,290.00
TRANSMISSION, 6-SPEED MANUAL $695.00 
TOTAL OPTIONS:$695.00
TOTAL VEHICLE & OPTIONS:$31,985.00
DESTINATION CHARGE:$700.00
Total vehicle Prices*:$32,685.00
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

11) A TR m6 in AL. 

2006 Gto Coupe 2 door notchback
Engine: ENGINE,6.0L V8 SFI 
Transmission: TRANSMISSION, MAN 6 SPD 
Exterior: Torrid Red 
Interior: Trim Combination Leather 
VIN#: 6G2VX12U06L554578
VICTORY PONTIAC GMC TRUCKS
1150 GEORGE ROY PARKWAY
CALERA, AL 35040-4995
GM Certified Internet Manager:
Steven Salter
(800) 915-2781
STANDARD VEHICLE PRICE*:$31,290.00
TRANSMISSION, 6-SPEED MANUAL $695.00 
TOTAL OPTIONS:$695.00
TOTAL VEHICLE & OPTIONS:$31,985.00
DESTINATION CHARGE:$700.00
Total vehicle Prices*:$32,685.00
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

12) A TR m6 in WI.

2006 Gto Coupe 2 door notchback
Engine: ENGINE,6.0L V8 SFI 
Transmission: TRANSMISSION, MAN 6 SPD 
Exterior: Torrid Red 
Interior: Trim Combination Leather 
VIN#: 6G2VX12U36L834608
GREENFIELD PONTIAC-BUICK-GMC
3615 S 108TH ST
GREENFIELD, WI 53228-1200
GM Certified Internet Manager:
Bob Ryan
(414) 545-7000
STANDARD VEHICLE PRICE*:$31,290.00
TRANSMISSION, 6-SPEED MANUAL $695.00 
TOTAL OPTIONS:$695.00
TOTAL VEHICLE & OPTIONS:$31,985.00
DESTINATION CHARGE:$700.00
Total vehicle Prices*:$32,685.00
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Whew, glad I got mine.....  arty:


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## thecommish16 (Oct 16, 2006)

Ive been in the price game for months with the GTOs. You are right about them sitting on the lots getting pounded with snow and heat and ice and whatever else for over 2 years. Dealers should be trying as hard as they can to sell them, but it's hard to say they are with the prices they are talking.


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## Jeffs386 (Nov 1, 2005)

so what did they want for the Mustang GT 28-30K?
I laugh when people say that the GTO is overpriced and that they might just go buy a Mustang , lets see ..100 less HP ,crappy interior quality,a 5 spd trans, and a solid axle rear but as a bonus you can see 1000 others every day who drive the exact same car as you
get a GTO while you still can!


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

*28K + 20K dealer mark up. In my area Stang GT's were going for 46K or so. I seen some in the high 40's to almost 50K when they hit the lots. *


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

GTO judge said:


> *28K + 20K dealer mark up. In my area Stang GT's were going for 46K or so. I seen some in the high 40's to almost 50K when they hit the lots. *



Good gravy, put down the water pipe..... Mark-ups DO NOT EXIST for Mustang GT's... Now if you're talking Shelby, or Saleen, or Roush, that's a different story altogether, but puhleez, tell me you're not SO brand-loyal that you don't know the difference...




Jeffs386 said:


> so what did they want for the Mustang GT 28-30K?
> I laugh when people say that the GTO is overpriced and that they might just go buy a Mustang , lets see ..100 less HP ,crappy interior quality,a 5 spd trans, and a solid axle rear but as a bonus you can see 1000 others every day who drive the exact same car as you
> get a GTO while you still can!


Let's analyze reality rather than fantasy... MSRP on a loaded-out '07 Mustang GT premum is $28-$30K depending on how spendy you get with wheels, stereo, navigation, etc... Furthermore, any dealer in the country will toss you a deal at straight invoice, plus there's $1,500 factory cash-back on 2007 models... Basically, you're looking at $26K out the door, real-world, compared to $29500 out the door real-world on the Goat... 

So, sure, it's only $3500 bucks we're talking, but AGAIN, one of the cars in question is a 2007 that has not seen much more than a month or two of lot-time and/or test-driving, and the other car in question is an almost two-year-old lot-dog... 

In my mind, it kinda evens things out a bit, a little bit cheaper interior, less h.p., but at least you get some semblance of a new car for your new car money, and save $3500 bucks which could easily go into a Roush blower package to bring you right-up-to-par in performance..

I'm not trying to begin some trollish Mustang vs. GTO thread.... I'm just not into moronic Calvin decals peeing on "choose your brand"... 

Besides, it's kinda hard to talk smack when your favorite nameplate has R.I.P. written under it. Can we keep it civil and real? :cheers


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

69bossnine said:


> Good gravy, put down the water pipe..... Mark-ups DO NOT EXIST for Mustang GT's... Now if you're talking Shelby, or Saleen, or Roush, that's a different story altogether, but puhleez, tell me you're not SO brand-loyal that you don't know the difference...


*Scuse' me???? The hell they didn't exist. I seen them. I looked at them when they came out. I was not afforded a test drive on an 05' Stang GT because I didn't have intent on buying it, 45K I argued with the salesman over it and the mark up. Chapman Ford Columbia PA is the dealer. When they came out in 2005 they were marked up. NO Roush, NO Saleen, and the Shelby was not yet introduced. What? You think I am an idiot that don't know what the hell I'm looking at?!? 

Kelly Cadillac Lancaster, PA, late summer 2005 Yellow convertible Stang GT 26K on the odometer, USED... sat there for 39K. They lowered the price to 35K as it sat there for months. That was marked up to over 50K new the salesman told me. 
I told him he was a fool asking for that, and asked to see the Kelly Blue book on it, he refused to show me. He insisted the markup on it was worth it.

Brand Loyal? Not a chance. Water pipe? Not hardly. Ford didn't mark up the Stang GT's when they came out in 2005? They are guilty as hell. 

I've been around the block there guy, I see what's out there and I see the asking prices. Before slamming do your homework the next time.*


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## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

Your the one looking at each and asking questions on a GTO forum, which became a statement that reads in favor of the rustang. Each to their own but it sounded like Calvin was zippin up his fly in that post ..... 



69bossnine said:


> Now if you're talking Shelby, or Saleen, or Roush, that's a different story altogether, but puhleez, tell me you're not SO brand-loyal that you don't know the difference...


Stangs mentioned carry the price gouge, 07 GT's where Judge lives may as well to some lower extent like $2k dealer mark up. That's a dealer scam found universally on real and perceived hot rides due to interest. In 05 the stang was a rape fest on the price gouge like the GTO was when introduced. GT's don't where I live, but they want full MSRP for a GT less rebate. Dealing below MSRP occurs with the 6 cylinder cars. Maybe a mistype on Judges part or factual since he was talking about stealerships in his local. Hard tellin not known bein I'm about a 80 miles to the south.



69bossnine said:


> Let's analyze reality rather than fantasy... MSRP on a loaded-out '07 Mustang GT premum is $28-$30K depending on how spendy you get with wheels, stereo, navigation, etc... Furthermore, any dealer in the country will toss you a deal at straight invoice, plus there's $1,500 factory cash-back on 2007 models... Basically, you're looking at $26K out the door, real-world, compared to $29500 out the door real-world on the Goat...


Now lets get "REAL" by doing the math. 

For example in March my 06 GTO with M6 and 18's having an MSRP of $33,180cost me;
Agreed price, $31092, tax $1559, tags $228, dealer fees $100, total prior to rebates $32,979. Total rebates $4452, due at signing $28,527. I bought it by using my GM credit card, putting $3k down (earning a 5% rebate of $150 toward my next GM purchase) and financed the balance at 7.99%. I sent a check for that remaining balance a week later so I'm not holding a note and paid near nothing in finance charges for 7 days. Had I paid monthly at that rate I would have paid $38,625 after 60 months. 

Using your example of the stang at, I'll use $29k (middle of your estimate), tax $1450, tags $228, dealer fees $100, prior to rebate $30,778. Less $1500, due at signing $29,278. Financed over 60 months at market rates adds another $7500 to the real cost of the purchase. 

If paying cash like my experience to your stang example I saved $750, got the extra letter O for oh boy that extra 100 horses really kicks a GT's a$$.  

So, if you find a dealer selling a GTO a couple or few grand below MSRP with 0%, your $5 to 6k real world dollars ahead. If the price of admission is MSRP, your still looking at a $3 to 4k savings over the life of the loan if your intention is to hold it that long. If not, you have to work the math to see which works out best for what you get for the money.




69bossnine said:


> one of the cars in question is a 2007 that has not seen much more than a month or two of lot-time and/or test-driving, and the other car in question is an almost two-year-old lot-dog...


No argument, the rubber meets the road and its 2 model years old taking a D hit to $23k ... if your intention is to buy and roll it over, hell its a car not a house and the stang has the same drop every domestic suffers from. As a driver that means nothing. As a short term owner or negotiating tool its a real issue. In the long haul, 160k units a year vrs 40k total production over 3 years .... ahhh, time will tell which one will rise in worth, my money's on the goat. :cool 

Good luck with your selection.:cheers 

Red.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Why are we talking about what prices may or may not have been almost three years ago, and what does any of it have to do with what a Mustang GT can be purchased for today?? :confused :confused 

Bottom-line, it wouldn't matter if Ford dealers in PA were marking them up a million bucks and requiring the ritualistic sacrifice of a live chicken back in 2004, new Mustang GT's today are a common commodity, no more difficult to buy or negotiate than a Toyota Camry. 

Furthermore, the amount of time the new-for-2005 Mustang GT was commanding mark-ups was barely a blip on the radar, production ramped up so fast, and the lots were full within a few months... 

And a Cadillac dealer has a used GT convertible on their lot asking $35K, saying it sold new for over $50K?? 

Dealers and car-sales-guys are sources for reliable information, and straight-talk, just about.... never.... I'm not going to argue with you over what you did or didn't see, I'm just going to say that whatever you saw, it was an anomoly, and NOT indicative of the market on the rest of planet earth..

And lastly, manufacturers don't mark up cars, dealers do. And they all do it when the opportunity is ripe (except for Ferrari dealers, who are contractually obligated to not mark-up)... I don't wish to get into a fight with you, but I'll invite anyone else on this forum to tell me about the time they saw a new regular-production Mustang GT on a dealer's lot marked-up 15-20 grand.... 

My dad bought his in October of 2004, for dealer-invoice plus $300 bucks....


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

*NO typos here. Fact of the matter is the Ford Dealers in the area were adding 20K mark ups to the GT when it came out. I friend of mine wanted one, he balked at it. He wasn't going to pay 47K for the one he looked at. A friend of his had one ordered, when it was delivered he went to pick it up with the understanding it was to be at MSRP as he and his sales guy talked about. He told them to shove the car up the managers a$$. he took his deposit back. 

As far as the yellow GT I mentioned, I posted that episode on this board when it happened. Do a search and you will find it. Why would I exaggerate? Ford is guilty of it and it's common knowledge. I don't care how much they mark them up. The GT's here were not on the lots until late Dec 2005. The V6's were on the lots before hand. 

Anyone who wants to defend Ford or any dealer for gouging their customers with obscene mark ups.... and 20K is an obscene mark up lacks morals in my judgement. My water pipe is empty, gots to go H2o myself.:willy: *


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

GTO judge said:


> Now lets get "REAL" by doing the math.
> 
> For example in March my 06 GTO with M6 and 18's having an MSRP of $33,180cost me;
> Agreed price, $31092, tax $1559, tags $228, dealer fees $100, total prior to rebates $32,979. Total rebates $4452, due at signing $28,527. I bought it by using my GM credit card, putting $3k down (earning a 5% rebate of $150 toward my next GM purchase) and financed the balance at 7.99%. I sent a check for that remaining balance a week later so I'm not holding a note and paid near nothing in finance charges for 7 days. Had I paid monthly at that rate I would have paid $38,625 after 60 months.
> ...


O.K., you guys are killin' me!!   You've complicated things way too much up there, and not to bore ya'll to tears, I'm going to make a few points...

1. Financing is financing, and isn't a mitigating factor unless one car has an avaliable financing deal that the other doesn't. At current, I believe both the GTO and the Mustang have 0% financing available, but you sacrifice the rebates as a result... Either way, it doesn't matter, I'm a cash buyer, period...

2. According to what I've learned, your "agreed" price of $31K was well below dealer invoice. Nice job negotiating, you bought back when it was a buyer's market, but none of the dealers with these last smattering of GTO's seem to be willing to go there.. 

3. Furthermore, I find it humorous that in an effort to be more "real", you use your extemely low-and-lucky negotiated price, with base wheels and 6-speed which is the cheapest possible scenario, and then find it fair and reasonable to use a $29K benchmark for the Mustang, which would be a very heavily equipped "GT Premium" with interior and exterior trim upgrades at RETAIL price. That's not real, that's intentionally tilting the scales to the GTO's favor just to make a point that doesn't need to be made... I think the GTO is a decent value, both cars are... I just thought I should be getting a better deal on a car that's been languishing unsold for so long...

4. Where'd you come up with $4452 in rebates? That's great and all, but all the factory is offering is $3K. If you had points on your GM card, or got some other timely deal, good for you, but it's not valid for comparison's sake, if we're going to play honest here.

In short, my figures arose from what I saw as realistic and valid for apples/apples comparison, cash vs. cash... If dealers up your way are getting MSRP for garden-variety GT's sitting on their lots, umm... O.K., I won't belabor it with you, but I know that's not what I'm seeing doing a simple traderonline browse through the Northeast... If there is a geographical difference in what you can buy a Mustang GT for up there, I don't know why it wouldn't apply to other types of enthusiast cars equally (like your GTO), and I don't know why people wouldn't simply drive across state lines to save a couple grand.... I'm not b.s.ing, Mustang GT's are all-day-long in the south for invoice plus a couple-hundred, which is about $2K off MSRP, as Ford has a wider margin between invoice and sticker than GM does with the GTO's.




GTO judge said:


> No argument, the rubber meets the road and its 2 model years old taking a D hit to $23k ... if your intention is to buy and roll it over, hell its a car not a house and the stang has the same drop every domestic suffers from. As a driver that means nothing. As a short term owner or negotiating tool its a real issue. In the long haul, 160k units a year vrs 40k total production over 3 years .... ahhh, time will tell which one will rise in worth, my money's on the goat. :cool
> 
> Good luck with your selection.:cheers
> 
> Red.


Future collectibility?? Now you're getting into my wheelhouse, as I'm a serious and fairly prolific collector of cars, and have stashed many a vehicle aside for "posterity"...  Always remember that rarity is only ONE factor, and it's not always a positive one. Look at how much more a simple '55 Chevy is worth compared to a rarer and substantively "better" '55 Pontiac.. Nostalgia plays a big part in the game of future values and collectibility, and sometimes it's the more popular cars that sold like hot-cakes new that are most fondly remembered and desired 20-30 years down the road... Of course, it's a ton more complex than that, but the latest GTO does have some "mystery" as to where it will land in history... Will it be revered as a unique and bold effort by Bob Lutz that just didn't resonate well because people didn't "get it" at the time??? Or will there just be a small but rabid following, surrounded by the rest of the world that was apethetic when it was new, and may very well REMAIN apathetic??

Look how rare and nifty the 68-70 AMX was?? Fact is, it never sold as well as AMC needed it to. Great looking car though, but for whatever reason, it just never sunk in. Even today, they're FINALLY getting up there in value, but still sag way behind FAR MORE COMMON AND PLENTIFUL Mustangs and Camaros and Chevelles.

So don't get me wrong, I'm not flaming your GTO's!! (I want to buy one, remember??). I'm just injecting a dose of objectivity... Hell, there's just no forecasting this stuff with much accuracy anyhow, as you never can tell how the crowd will sway... Look at Cudas, they didn't sell all that great compared to their competition new, they were poorly built (but the drivelines were superb), handled like junk, and never carried much value through the dark-years of the 70's... Go figure... :seeya:


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

GTO judge said:


> *Anyone who wants to defend Ford or any dealer for gouging their customers with obscene mark ups.... and 20K is an obscene mark up lacks morals in my judgement. My water pipe is empty, gots to go H2o myself.:willy: *



Fair enough, I'm not going to argue with you over what you did or didn't see....

But, "Ford" does not mark-up cars... Neither does GM. It's not a matter of defending them, it's a matter of fact. "Market-Adjustments" (as is the common nice-sounding phrase for "bending over") are PURELY the business of the dealers, 100%. Ford and GM corporate doesn't get a dime of it, nor do they promote it, or suggest it. Even when the 6-figure Ford GT came out, and some dealers were asking AND GETTING in excess of $200K for them, all of the proceeds stayed in the dealer's pockets... When the GTO came out, and dealers initially tried to play hardball with "market adjustments", Pontiac didn't see a dime of the blood money. 

On one hand it's ridiculous to attribute the actions of dealers to the manufacturers..

On the other hand, the manufacturers should do MORE to get their dealers to fly straight and have reasonable ethics...

But on yet ANOTHER HAND, this is America, and it's a free market, and if I don't get an '06 GTO because I was too cheap to pay the going rate for a 2-year-old lot-lizard, then it's my fault, or my good sense, however you wish to look at it..


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

*You took quotes from the wrong guy there guy. The quotes are from Red not me. :confused 
*


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Whoops, sorry about that.... I got it right on my last post however...


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

69bossnine said:


> Fair enough, I'm not going to argue with you over what you did or didn't see....
> 
> But, *"Ford" does not mark-up cars*... Neither does GM. It's not a matter of defending them, it's a matter of fact. "Market-Adjustments" (as is the common nice-sounding phrase for "bending over") are PURELY the business of the dealers, 100%. Ford and GM corporate doesn't get a dime of it, nor do they promote it, or suggest it. Even when the 6-figure Ford GT came out, and some dealers were asking AND GETTING in excess of $200K for them, all of the proceeds stayed in the dealer's pockets... When the GTO came out, and dealers initially tried to play hardball with "market adjustments", Pontiac didn't see a dime of the blood money.
> 
> ...


*Maybe you misunderstand, I didn't say FORD marked them up The DEALERS did. Of the cars I looked at and this includes the Shelby, the MSRP on the car was inline with what Ford intended to sell them at. The dealers added their own stickers to it which included dealer add on accessories etc. including the fancy 20K wording... which some of the verbiage reads... dealer incentive. 
IMO ....Only the greedy truly condone a mark up of that nature. To me it shows a gouging of customers who they know want a car bad enough they will take advantage of them. The ones who pay deserve the reaming. enuff said.*


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Your exact words were "Ford or any dealer"... Hence my correction that "Ford" was not involved in the issue. If your use of "Ford" was simply a metaphore for Ford dealers, then we have no dispute... :cheers:


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

*Any manufacturer or dealer was the point. Case in point I was referencing Ford because it's their dealers. I never meant Ford but it's dealers.:cheers *


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

I agree that there's a "point" at which the mark-ups are slimy and overly-opportunistic, but.. then I always come back to being a believer in the free market, and as such, I place the blame for such mark-ups firmly on the shoulders of those foolish enough to pay them...


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## MajorTom (Jun 30, 2007)

I know this may not be of much help. But I got a USED 05 GTO manual for 21990. That's a significant deal considering it only had 2500 miles on it. So you might look for a used one or a preowned one from a lot. Mine came from a dealer about 40 miles outside of Saint Louis. And if you're paying cash, you should be able to get a better deal. The place wanted like 23990, but I paid about 1500 dollars down, and had them drop the price to 21990. But I would assume these guys think they're going to sucker someone into buying a new one for msrp because it could be a collector car one day. I have my doubts about that, but it's possible. 

My point is, used may be the best way to go.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

I've arrived at that same conclusion. Money is money, and quite honestly, everything I've inquired about that is "new" on the dealer lots has at least a few hundred test-drive miles on it, so it's only "new" in a semantic sense...


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## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

69bossnine said:


> O.K., you guys are killin' me!!   You've complicated things way too much up there


Like other forum members you've snapped back at on this thread, just answering the questions you pose and responding to opinions you've made. Don't get your panties in a bunch Alice if you don't have the talent to get the deal done to your satisfaction. A masters degree isn't required to understand the math involved in purchasing a car.



69bossnine said:


> I'm going to make a few points...
> 
> 1. At current, I believe both the GTO and the Mustang have 0% financing available, but you sacrifice the rebates as a result...
> 
> ...


Point away but not in peoples eyes that are trying to help you out. Its easier to ignore a thread asking for help, instead of responding and catching lip in return with blue oval bias. 

1) Current GTO incentive $3k cash or 0% plus $1000 for up to 60 months. Stang GT $1500 cash or 0% for 36 months, 2.9% for 48 and 3.9% for 60. Apples to apples, incentive edge - GTO. As a cash buyer, with 0% your money is better served in an interest bearing money market fund or similar that you can write checks from to pay for either one you choose. That's how smart money rolls and 0% wasn't available when I pruchased my goat. 

2) About $2100 below MSRP from a dealer that didn't have one on the lot and it wasn't the lowest quote I received for the color and options I wanted. I pinged 12 dealers for OTR quotes with in 60 miles of my home. Ten responded, only 2 wanted to really deal. The rest were padding the quote with fat or leaving out 3t's and freight. It was a month long beat down with all that responded before I walked into a showroom to test drive with hard prices in hand. Before retiring in April at age 50, I spent 12 years of a 27 year career in the Merchant Marine dry-docking container ships as the project manager negotiating 300 plus line item invoices in domestic/Europian/ Asian shipyards. Purchasing a car with 2 options and getting 7% off the MSRP before applying another 13% reduction in rebates, not hard to do with a little talent to negotiate that was honed on the water front with modern day pirates. More like playing poker with children. I have mine, are U up for the challenge? Or, is it that your just gonna whine like a bad differential on this forum because no dealer is making life easy for you?

3) Now your mullets showing! What other example would I use? There's something wrong in using real word numbers of fact, like my purchase and what Ford dealers are doing where I live, I don't think so. Luck shouldn't be confused with experience in sitting in the box. I use a system that puts me in control before I walk in the door. My goat has all 2 options available, M6 that gets rid of the gas guzzler tax and 18's. The 17's are standard and priced about $500 less. I posted up the 12 manual GTO's available east of the Mississippi, yea it might be hard to get them below sticker but there are a ton of auto's out there and if I wanted one of those back in March I would have paid another $2k less on a car with a slightly higher MSRP. The stang GT with all its factory premium trim bells and whistles is still inferior to the GTO standard package. The stang's only sales advantage is the cars retro styling. The GTO has all around superior performance and IMO the comparison stands, advantage - GTO, over any Found On Road Dead ruststain GT. 

4) Hey, why would I waste another key board stroke to try and save U money? I'm sorry I mentioned the conquest rebate on the other thread that tweaked your interest because you didn't know about it.... wonder away about what else you don't know about. :lol: 

Summation:
You started the thread stating you currently own 1 ford pickup and had a Lightening, along with your forum name 69boss .... Lets face it you have a chubby for leaving blue oval skid mark stains in your wares and you called Judge out about brand loyalty? Stop wasting peoples time, get the GT and enjoy the view of our tails. :cool 

Red .... not to be confused with Judge.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Now I'm sorry I started the thread...

I use 69bossnine as my username, because it's my favorite car that I own, 1969 Boss 429 KK1910... Shoot me...

However, I own 18 Pontiacs from 1955 on up... Suffice it to say, I've got other interests beyond Ford, life's to short to sit at the same table day-in-day-out...

Other than making my head spin.... I don't see any conclusion drawn out of your last epic novel, other than talking in circles and being oddly P.O.'d at me (I didn't think I was being rude or trite in my last post, but maybe I'm a bad judge of my own writing), because I didn't just lay down and accept what I thought was a fairly unrealistic comparison..

Lastly, geez, we're having a pi$$ing contest over who's the best negotiator?? I'm just looking for a deal that makes sense to my sensibilities... I've got a decent compass that way, as many of my newer collectibles were purchased off of numbnutz speculators who paid too much new for a car that they stashed as an investment, and then impatiently bailed out a year or two later.. I was thinking that dealer-invoice, or even invoice minus a grand, was pretty lousy for a 2-year old car that's been sitting outside. My last foray into buying a left-over performance vehicle off the lot netted me a 2004 SRT-10 with only a couple hundred miles on the odo for $12K under MSRP... THAT was a decent deal. 

So anyhow, good gravy, I'm not your enemy!! I was just trying to "feel out the market" by getting anonymous feedback from a good group of GTO owners.. It's a good way to test the temperature of what things are selling for across the country, before going in and suffering the agony of the b.s. artists at the dealerships...

Anyhow, it's not over yet, I've got one last negotiation still in process... Otherwise, I'll just keep on keeping on...

The best deals I've had, long term, were not through arm-twisting negotiation... They were through patience... I've got alot of it now, didn't used to when I was younger... 

And I admit, I enjoy the art of the deal, and when things eventually work out beyond my initial expectations... Certain cars have come along that I "had to have right away"... This isn't one of those situations..

So, please, truce everyone, you're picking a fight when I'm just trying to be honest... If I disagree with something you put out, you toss me to the competition?? Nice place.... :confused


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## MAXAMOOSE (Mar 2, 2006)

WOW!!!! Interesting read.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

69bossnine said:


> it's my favorite car that I own, 1969 Boss 429 KK1910... Shoot me...


*
Say Boss...Have any pics of that BOSS? Love to see them. I am always admiring them at cruises. A few Gorgeous ones around town here. That and the Older Mach 1's would be my favorite Stangs.*


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Happy to!! A few of the Boss, and one of my more favorite pics, me in my Mach 1 posing with a P51... The best thing about these cars, is that you can *F*ind them *O*n the *R*oad *D*ead.... Makes the cost of acquisition far more reasonable...


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

*SWEET......VERY VERY nice.... *


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## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

69bossnine said:


> However, I own 18 Pontiacs from 1955 on up...


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: With 18 ponchos your crying about the price of a new GTO? 



69bossnine said:


> making my head spin.... I don't see any conclusion drawn out of your last epic novel, other than talking in circles


Your a smart enough guy so don't feed me a line like you have limited cerebral powers of comprehension to understand the basic math examples I posted caused that reaction. They are real world and devils advociate to your own. 



69bossnine said:


> (maybe I'm a bad judge of my own writing), because I didn't just lay down and accept what I thought was a fairly unrealistic comparison..


This was a fairly paradox statement that I could concur with.



69bossnine said:


> Lastly, geez, we're having a pi$$ing contest over who's the best negotiator??


Ah, no contest by me. I've been paid to negotiate as stated previously. Also, I have my GTO and worked over 10 dealers to get the price I paid, as stated previously. People on this forum have done better than I and some not as well. That's each individuals price of admission for the thrill ride of the GTO.



69bossnine said:


> If I disagree with something you put out, you toss me to the competition?? Nice place.... :confused


That came from comparing a ruststain GT to the GTO. Your math, not mine! And the point of my disdain, your angle reminds me of a used car salesman picking up inventory. What's it gonna be worth if I flip it, what is my expected turn over time and how do I lower my exposure to a potential loss? Your a collector, I own mine for the thrill of the ride, period!

Good luck in whichever you choose.:cheers 

Red.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

I don't believe I questioned your math, I questioned your variables... Anyhow, don't worry about it, the subject is toast...

The '06 GTO is intended for daily commuting for me, not for collecting or flipping (there's not going to be any money in flipping GTO's for a long-long-long time). I was just gnawing on this because often times it's the discussion among peers that helps me find my own answers... Quite honestly, all of this bickering has helped me..

The Mustang comparo is valid I think, I don't know why that would throw anyone into a tizzie... You guys may hate the things, or get into the whole competetive NASCAR-mentality thing, whatever... I'm just looking for a fun V8 that rides great, looks great, goes great, but isn't so damn great that I start worrying about it, and washing it every afternoon, and all that other stuff that my obsessive-compulsive nature tends toward...

In any case, thanks for the opinions!


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