# Frame condition question



## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

Hey guys, I am curious about frames. After a small decison based on misinofrmation, i had orignally purchased a replacement frame for me 1968 GTO convertible, but discovered that I had gotton a hardtop fromae and not a convertible frame. I have since sold the hardtop frame and picked up a propert convertible frame for my car. 

When I first look at the convertible chasis frame it was still on the donar car. The auto dismantler lifeted the car witha fork lift and let me look and poke around the frame. At the time I viewed the frame, it appeared to be in pretty good conditon, not withstanding a little surface rust and dirt. I did not see any rot, repair patches, or damage. 

Then when I came to pick up the frame a couple days later, the auto dismantler had the bare frame on the ground; and then I notice a small dent in the top rail on the rear rear driver side of the frame. The dent is on the top of the frame rail only, spands the width of the frame rail, is about 2" wide, and the side of the rail has a very slight bulge. Other than this small dent the frame looks great. 

Can any one tell me whether this small dent is going to be a problem with the frame? It appears that only the top rail has the dent and looks like the dent might have been caused by a fork lift. Is this something that can be easily fixed or is this frame shot?

I have included a few photos, 1) is viewing top rail from directly above frame, 2) is top rail from rear wheels towards rear 3) is side rail with view of top rail, and 4)bottom rail directly underneath, showing the buldge in side rail.

Any advice would be helpful. Thanks


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

i guess it depends on if they knock off some money for damaging it. it will take some heating and somebody that is pretty handy with some big hammers to get it back right.

interesting its right at the numbers. what if while you are heating and beating it the numbers are ruined.:willy:


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Strange dent....it is fixable. It looks sort of fresh (on the top) yet lightly rusty. Could have happened when the fork lift lifted the body off the car. Like Shane said...I would check to see if the numbers will be affected by the repair....Eric


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## pontiac (Mar 6, 2011)

repairable, but should get a discount on the frame purchase.


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## bondobill (Oct 24, 2011)

Frames are pretty tough, I don't think a fork lift could have caused that damage unless they dropped the body from a long ways in the air on the frame while they were removing it. Before you take heat and hammers to it set the frame on a level floor on 4 jack stands set at the same height.
Locate the front stands behind where the frame starts to run parallel to the body. Locate rear stands forward of where frame curves up for rear differential. Once set up take a tape measurer and compare height from floor to end of rear frame rails, should be same for both sides. My guess is the damaged side will be higher. Looks to me donor car was hit in the rear at one time or another. If the damaged rail is higher on the end just removing the buckle with heat and a hammer won't fix the height issue. 

Just my 2 cents.

Good luck


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

bondobill said:


> Frames are pretty tough, I don't think a fork lift could have caused that damage unless they dropped the body from a long ways in the air on the frame while they were removing it. Before you take heat and hammers to it set the frame on a level floor on 4 jack stands set at the same height.
> Locate the front stands behind where the frame starts to run parallel to the body. Locate rear stands forward of where frame curves up for rear differential. Once set up take a tape measurer and compare height from floor to end of rear frame rails, should be same for both sides. My guess is the damaged side will be higher. Looks to me donor car was hit in the rear at one time or another. If the damaged rail is higher on the end just removing the buckle with heat and a hammer won't fix the height issue.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.
> ...


I did measure the frame diagonally from one corner to the other and it came out to be less than 1/8" off. I too thought maybe the donor car was hit in the rear, but what confused me is that there appears to be no other damage....no damage to the bottom rail, no damage to the cross menber at the very rear of the frame, and no damage anywhere else that I could see. It seems to me, that if it were kissed in the rear, there would be signs of damge somewhere, like on the corresponding rear corner (where it is not boxed in) or on the rear cross member or somewhere. 

Anyways, my body and frame guy seems to think it can be fixed for around $600. Fortunately I got a decent enough deal on the frame that in the end I should have a very nice frame (straight, powder coated, correct for convertible, etc) for an average price.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Sounds good to me...if it is square, and strong (properly repaired) you should be fine. I still think the damaged was caused during disassembly. It doesn't even look too bad. Eric:cheers


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

:agree disassembly damage. really annoying when you find a good part and it is damaged before you can get your hands on it.


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

Well I did a little more research on my frame issue. I obtained a factory frame dimension chart with all the measurements for a '68 GTO/tempest frame. So I pulled out the good old measuring tape to take a few measurements. I discovered that overall the frame looks good but I did discover however, that my measurements are off by between 1/8"-1/4" and that on that one rail there are a few spots that seem like "buldges" in the side rail (only between rear wheel and rear of frame). Now I am not an expert but I believe based on what I am told that this can fixed. Any opinions on whether I should get this frame fixed or keep looking for another frame?

I got the frame for $400 and am told it will be approx $600-$800 to repair (and then another $600 to powder coat). I am just wondering is it worth fixing? For are small buldges and 1/8"-1/4" off on just the rear of the frame a big deal?


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

if the center section crosses out fine then it is a very easy fix for someone with the proper equipment. i know this stuff can get expensive but that is a half day job if you go slow. it is especially easy to set up a bare frame. i would shop around. did the quote come over the phone or did somebody actually look at it?


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

66tempestGT said:


> if the center section crosses out fine then it is a very easy fix for someone with the proper equipment. i know this stuff can get expensive but that is a half day job if you go slow. it is especially easy to set up a bare frame. i would shop around. did the quote come over the phone or did somebody actually look at it?


The quote came from two seperate body/frame shops (one of which who has done a lot of work for me on other projects), both looking at the pics I have and neither looking at the actual frame, yet. Both shops said it would be 6-8 hours of work (maybe less, but not likely).


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

that is 6-8 hours at 100 dollars an hour. i dont know where you live but thats almost double the rate here. also if a bodyman charges 8 hours he plans to be done in 4 or less. at least you will know its right. instead of rolling the dice again. good luck whatever you decide.:cheers


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

66tempestGT said:


> that is 6-8 hours at 100 dollars an hour. i dont know where you live but thats almost double the rate here. also if a bodyman charges 8 hours he plans to be done in 4 or less. at least you will know its right. instead of rolling the dice again. good luck whatever you decide.:cheers


I live in California, the SF Bay Area at that, and most body shops here charge between $80-$100 per hour. I think if I can keep the cost to less than $800, I am ahead of the game. If it is more than that, I will look for another frame. The first body shop I got a quote from are friends of mine and I trust them that they are being honest with me and not over charging. I have had much work done by this shop and I refer a lot of business their way.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

my wife is from Hillsborough. i can understand that price now.:willy: Hillsborough money goes a long way in Alabama!arty:


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## bondobill (Oct 24, 2011)

mrvandermey
Frame shops normally charge 2 to 2 and half hours to set up and measure, this does not include pulling and repair time. Full frames takes more time to set up than unibody because of having to tie down the frame with chains for holding of frame also frame will have to be supported with stands. Looking at just photos of frame damage make it darn hard to give a accurate estimate, therefore normally would estimate on the high side. Also if shops are busy and have collision jobs waiting to go on the rack they have to charge enough for just a frame repair to make it worth their time. 
If who ever does the repair and stays within the estimate, no harm no foul, how ever if final bill is more than qouted they should be able to explain the reason and show you addtionial areas repaired.
Looking at your photos I would quess about 4 hours for just the repair time of the rear rail not including set up time, there again I am looking at photos and if I had to give a estimate, i would say 8 to 12 hours.
Good luck

Bill


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

bondobill said:


> mrvandermey
> Frame shops normally charge 2 to 2 and half hours to set up and measure, this does not include pulling and repair time. Full frames takes more time to set up than unibody because of having to tie down the frame with chains for holding of frame also frame will have to be supported with stands. Looking at just photos of frame damage make it darn hard to give a accurate estimate, therefore normally would estimate on the high side. Also if shops are busy and have collision jobs waiting to go on the rack they have to charge enough for just a frame repair to make it worth their time.
> If who ever does the repair and stays within the estimate, no harm no foul, how ever if final bill is more than qouted they should be able to explain the reason and show you addtionial areas repaired.
> Looking at your photos I would quess about 4 hours for just the repair time of the rear rail not including set up time, there again I am looking at photos and if I had to give a estimate, i would say 8 to 12 hours.
> ...


Thanks Bill, good to know. As stated, all damage appears to be just on that on driver's side, between rear wheel and rear of frame and measurements for rear only are off by 1/8"-1/4".


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## bondobill (Oct 24, 2011)

mrvandermey said:


> Thanks Bill, good to know. As stated, all damage appears to be just on that on driver's side, between rear wheel and rear of frame and measurements for rear only are off by 1/8"-1/4".


You are welcome
If the frame is out of square 1/8 to 1/4" not a big of deal. My concern on that rail would be that it is high at the rear. If left that way would make car sit high on that corner, also would have heck of time lining up rear bumper. I looked at my sons 68 goat I am doing a body resto on. Where your frame is damaged is just forward of rear bumper bracket, if donor car was hit high in the rear bumper, the frame would buckle forward of the bracket, wouldn't even show any damage to the rear of rail or crossmember. The bottom of the rail probably appears to show no damage but my quess is the metal stretched on the bottom and probably will buckle there when they repair the rail, not a big deal, a little heat at that point will solve that. Got to like these old frames, they are a lot more forgiving than the cars we have now.

Bill


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

the cross measurements cant be right when the rail is bent like that. once it is straight the cross measurement will probably be fine. and if not that is the time to correct it, not before. a modern shop probably has real clamps to use on the frame and not just blocks and chains. either way with no body it will be easy. 

like i said. bill says 4 hours to repair and 2.5 setup. then says 8-12 hours. bodyman math. it pays the bills. :lol:


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