# 65 gto



## djmkultra (Aug 10, 2012)

Hi All,

I got a 65 GTO with a 455. Unfortunately, whoever did the rebuild (before I bought it) ran the front right brake line under the frame cross member and the engine block. So, over a few weeks, the line was smashing against the rail and finally broke open. It broke open on my way to my friends garage to fix up several mechanicals with the car. I was on the tollway and had no brakes into the tollbooth. Of course there was a stopped car in my way.....

So, its in the body shop getting fixed up. I am going to take this time to get the car straight the right way. Clean up all the crappy wiring that is under the hood and behind the dash. I need some advise on what components to use.

1. The carb. Right now, there is a Holley 4 barrel 850 CFM. Looks like a mechanical choke, but the linkage is gone. I want a new carb. So I was looking at a Holley 4 barrel 850 with an electric choke. When the car is turned off, the engine diesels. I suspect that its because the choke valve is open?

2. Radiator. The old one was a Griffen 4 row. It had a crappy single electric fan with no shroud. The car ran hot all the time. It did not overheat, just hot as hell. 190-200f. I think the dimensions are 26x15. Some people say a 4 row, some say a 2 row. Since I need a new radiator, I want to get it right. The second time.... I already have a dual fan with shroud at the garage. 

3. The brake master cylinder. Right now, there is a later model brake master cylinder with no brake booster. Its a dual cylinder, maybe off of a 70's vette. Is it worth digging up a brake booster to match this cylinder, or should I get a new dual cylinder with booster kit for the GTO. Era specific? Seeing as I crashed because the brakes went out, I want to stop next time. 

4. My body shop is trying to get original parts where they can. The chrome (metal) grill inserts are not available. ABS plastic ones are. Is there anyone out there that can repair the metal ones? Are the plastic ones good? Can you notice a difference? Should I sweat it? I'm not going for a matching numbers car. But I don't want a crappy, half-assed one either.

5. Air intake. Should I keep the sealed ram air intake? Or remove the shroud and let it breath from the hood and in the engine bay?

Overall, the car was 95% put together. It has good parts and was a solid effort. The last 5% of tying the car together electrically and mechanically sucks. Im open to all suggestions and comments. I have pictures of the car and the accident if your interested. 



Thanks,

Rob Wilson


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Man, sorry to hear about your mishap. I love 65's...

1. Go with what you like. A dieseling problem isn't likely caused by a choke problem, one way or the other. Common causes can be a combination of too fast of an idle speed, lean mixture, engine running too hot, lots of carbon in the cylinders (gets hot enough to glow and acts like a spark plug). ignition timing.

2. Oh boy, one of my favorite topics. Most common cause of Pontiacs running too warm is too much clearance between the water pump impeller and the plate that sits behind it. Fail to get that clearance right, and you can't BUY enough parts to keep it cool.

3. I'll take safety over originality when it comes to brakes all day long. Use some sort of dual master that won't completely go away on you if you lose half the system. Whether it's power-assisted or not is up to you and how the rest of the brake system performs and feels, pedal effort wise.

4. No clue - I haven't built a 65 yet (but I hope to)

5. That's more of a 'cool' factor than anything. The Pontiac hood scoops are too short and in the wrong place to get any sort of real 'ram' effect, but there is some slight benefit to getting cooler air. I wouldn't just remove the insert though, if I wanted to make it functional I'd get the repro ram-air pan for the carb and the correct open scoop insert.

Good luck, and we always love photos... Video of it running is even better.

Bear


----------



## the65gto (Oct 9, 2008)

You can have a look at this previous post. 65 is pretty close.:lol:

http://www.gtoforum.com/f83/routing-right-front-wheel-brake-line-65-post-gto-36703/


----------



## djmkultra (Aug 10, 2012)

Man, sorry to hear about your mishap. I love 65's...

1. Go with what you like. A dieseling problem isn't likely caused by a choke problem, one way or the other. Common causes can be a combination of too fast of an idle speed, lean mixture, engine running too hot, lots of carbon in the cylinders (gets hot enough to glow and acts like a spark plug). ignition timing.

The car was running really hot as is. I dont think its idle speed, although I took a few plugs out and the piston was really sooty... 


2. Oh boy, one of my favorite topics. Most common cause of Pontiacs running too warm is too much clearance between the water pump impeller and the plate that sits behind it. Fail to get that clearance right, and you can't BUY enough parts to keep it cool.

I saw a post about tapping the impeller closer to the body, down the shaft. Is that the distance your talking about? Is it all the way down? After the crash, I need a new water pump and I have one from auto zone. Is there any benefit to getting a fancy edlebrock performance pump?


3. I'll take safety over originality when it comes to brakes all day long. Use some sort of dual master that won't completely go away on you if you lose half the system. Whether it's power-assisted or not is up to you and how the rest of the brake system performs and feels, pedal effort wise.

I have a picture of the MC that is on there now. I want to throw some chrome under the hood and was looking at this:

JEGS Performance Products 631017 JEGS Master Cylinders & Power Brake Boosters

Because I am still having flash backs of my foot on the floor and the car in front of me getting big in the windshield, price is no factor when it comes to stopping now. What kind of MC and BB is on the space shuttle?


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

No, it's not tapping the impeller down. It's about the big metal plate the goes between the water pump and the timing cover. (You DO have one of those, right?) The clearance between the plate and the pump impeller has to be right or it's not going to cool well no matter how much money you throw at it. I know I've posted the procedure on here somewhere just in the last few days.

I can't really say much about the Jegs booster. I care more about how they work than how they look. The one I have on my car is spec'ed for a 69 Corvette with disc brakes. I bought it brand new at NAPA. For power assist I'm running a hydroboost setup instead of a vacuum assisted booster.

Bear


----------



## the65gto (Oct 9, 2008)

Look at my "before" and "After" shots to give you an idea.:lol: I changed both the impeller type and the clearance.


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

the65gto said:


> Look at my "before" and "After" shots to give you an idea.:lol: I changed both the impeller type and the clearance.


That's a huge difference. That first photo looks like the impeller is a smaller diameter than the plate opening by quite a bit. There's no way something like that would have moved enough coolant to work. How much difference did you see once you fixed that?


Bear


----------



## FlambeauHO (Nov 24, 2011)

Nice! That ought to help!


----------



## the65gto (Oct 9, 2008)

BearGFR said:


> That's a huge difference. That first photo looks like the impeller is a smaller diameter than the plate opening by quite a bit. There's no way something like that would have moved enough coolant to work. How much difference did you see once you fixed that?
> 
> 
> Bear


When I first started reading about the water pump clearance problem, I could not remember what type of water pump I had put in there, never checked the clearance, never thought you had to.:willy: So I opened it up and was shocked at the type impeller I had because that was the one to avoid. Not knowing this when I purchased this pump, I did not know the difference in the impellers. Had a little difficulty in finding a replacement because most internet sites only show the front view and I did not want to get another stamped type impeller. Went to a few stores locally and most had the stamped type, a few had the vain type but the edges were rounded or smoothed, finally ended up at AutoZone ordering a new pump with "cast" vanes, machined top. The manager there assured me that if it was not the correct type I wanted, he would keep trying until it was. His pictures showed both the front and rear view, it turned out to be the correct one. When I first layed this new one out with the gasket in place, there was about .4 inch clearance. "Adjusted" the stainless steel plate(using rubber mallet) to get it down just under .02. Have not fired it yet with new pump, still working on replacing old brittle wiring, body mounts and about ready to remove the entire rear end to sandblast it and repaint. (neighbors will be happy about that:lol


----------



## FlambeauHO (Nov 24, 2011)

Be careful sandblasting the rear end as it is very difficult to keep all sand out. I put mine in the hot bath at a local machine shop, cost me 20-30 bucks with a bunch of small parts. .


----------



## olde-goat (Feb 1, 2009)

Sorry but I am not quite clear on 'adjusting' the clearance of the impeller to the stainless steel plate. Do you have to tap down around the opening in the SS plate and measure (with feeler qauge?) from the the blades to the inside (side facing the impeller) of the plate opening?


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Yep, that's what you do. Except you don't have to measure it. Lay the plate on the back of the pump with no gasket between them and "work it" (use a hammer, or the jaws of a Crescent wrench) until the plate just kisses the impeller all the way around. When you re-install with the gasket in place the clearance will be right.

Bear


----------



## olde-goat (Feb 1, 2009)

Thanks Bear. We assembled the engine about 4-5 years ago. Never started yet, only turned over by hand. With all the cooling problems that I read about on this site, not having the water pump functioning properly only adds to the problems on start up of a new rebuilt tight engine. Thanks


----------

