# Perhaps time to leave the herd



## GTOJon (Jan 25, 2005)

I've been on a see-saw for almost a year now in regards to getting rid of the car. Last September I actually made it to the dealer and almost made a trade but couldn't justify trading all the way down to a base (hubcapped) G5 and still paying $400/mo.

Here's my story...

I'm 26, I live on my own, I work full time, I go to school, I'm receiving an MA degree hopefully this Spring. I bought the GTO in April of 2005. My payments are $580/mo. I have 43,000 miles on the car and the warranty is up at 60,000. I think in April of 2009 I have a balloon payment (SmartBuy) of $13000 or so. I can't possibly give the car back at that time because I will owe too much on the mileage. Another risk is, will the car be worth that balloon payment next year for me to sell it?

I went to the dealer today for an oil change and wiper blade replacements (I know, could have done the wipers myself, but I am really short on time lately). Total cost $107 - unbelievable ripoff. Then they inform me that I will be needing new brakes soon all around, 'fuel injection service', 'fuel induction service', and 'throttle body service'...all maintenance (not damaged). Then my 50,000 mile service will be due at the next oil change which includes a transmision tuneup (which I don't know the cost).

Between all of the routine maintenance and the warranty expiring in 17,000 miles I am heavily considering just getting rid of the car. I know that all cars have routine maintenance, but I'm sure after the warranty the combination of routine maintenance plus anything else that needs to be repaired will be just too much money.

My car payments are high because I lost some money on a trade-in on the GTO. Another reason that the base G5 was $400/mo back in September is because I am upside down on the GTO. I know I would be screwed trading the GTO for a econo-crap car but in the next 3 years (on a lease) I will end up saving alot of money.

I would save:
180/mo on car payments
60+/mo on insurance
70+/mo on gas
xxx.xx on oil changes + other maintenance

However, I would be paying more money than what the new car would be worth if I make a swap. But the main thing I'm seeing now is saving money and not feeling the way I do now. It's never good to be "living" for a car. I am considering just leasing my next car or two so I don't have to be concerned with anything but basic maintenance and just give the car back and get something new.

Another possibility is swapping for certified used car and break even or better and start fresh.

THANK YOU for reading through all of this. I feel like I am in such bind and your advice is appreciated and NEEDED!


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## Tacmedic (Feb 24, 2006)

*Not what you want to hear but....*

..Go to your local credit union and try to get a loan for the difference between what the car is worth and what is owed and sell it. Get a cheap car, ($1,000.00 or less) pay cash for it and work on it yourself. Get another job, (You are young and don't need much sleep) and pay off what you owe. Don't ever but a car again unless you have the cash to pay for it.

If you go trade it in, you will just be rolling the negative equity into the next one and investing more money into something that will lose 60% of it's value in the first few years. You have to break the cycle of always having that much debt or you will be broke for the rest of your life.

Hey, the truth hurts, but you are in no position right now to be driving new cars, period.


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## GTOJon (Jan 25, 2005)

Tacmedic said:


> ..Get another job, (You are young and don't need much sleep) and pay off what you owe.
> 
> Hey, the truth hurts, but you are in no position right now to be driving new cars, period.


I already have a decent job, hence the reason I can live on my own and have a new car. Getting an additional job is out of the question, I already have a 9 hour + work day (not including commuting) and am in a full time Master's program at school.

I "can" keep this car as I am 'not' down to the dollar each month. My battle right now is if it is really worth paying all of this money into something that I would most likely sell in the future anyway. But that really comes down to what I want to do. I am just hoping to get a few 'outside' perspectives.


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## kerry71 (May 10, 2007)

A lot depends on your personality and willpower. Will you enjoy driving your new or replacement enough that you won't trade it early and continue to roll over negative equity? From the sounds of your post, you probably will not be satisfied driving a car that strictly meets your transportation needs.

A lease doesn't sound like a good option unless you pay for extra miles or seriously adjust your driving habots. 48,000 miles in a little over 2-1/2 years is pretty high. 

If you are truly concerned about saving money, get out of the GTO and get somthing you can pay cash for that gets good mileage and you can work on yourself. There are phenominal deals out there in the $2000 and under range. I sold a 1991 Prelude with 75k on it for 1400 in the spring when I bought my GTO. It got 28 miles to the gallon and rarely required more than an oil change every 5,000 miles. I was able to do all the routine maintenance myself, including changing my timing belt, in the driveway, using the shop manual I downloaded online for free and articles out of Honda Tuning.

Good luck-Kerry


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## Tacmedic (Feb 24, 2006)

*Hey, you asked for my opinion...*

...I just don't want you to be a slave to a car payment for the rest of your life. Do you have any idea what 4-500 a month into a mutual fund will net you over several years? I'll give you a hint. You can pay cash for whatever you want when you are my age, (41).

I paid cash for my GTO after saving for several years and driving my last car over 200,000 miles, (after putting money away for retirement and emergencies). I also bought it used and saved $12,000 off a new one. 9000 miles is new enough for me and I am sure as hell not going to pay a buck and a quarter a mile in depreciation just for that, "new car smell". If you had to feed a dollar cash into the dash every mile would you still drive a new car?

Good luck with your Masters and congratulations. Get out there and make some good money with it so you can buy something fun and not be a slave to the bank.


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## NJG8GT (Nov 14, 2007)

*Cars*

You have listed a '87 Camaro. Do you still have that one. If so, sell the GTO and buy another comuter car, alot cheaper and durable. Or sell the camaro and what money you make, put it into your GTO. If your not strapped month to month, then it should come down to how much you wanna keep that GTO. If you really like the GTO, keep it. You sound like you'd rather give it up.


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## Partsguru1 (May 21, 2007)

Tacmedic said:


> ..Go to your local credit union and try to get a loan for the difference between what the car is worth and what is owed and sell it. Get a cheap car, ($1,000.00 or less) pay cash for it and work on it yourself. Get another job, (You are young and don't need much sleep) and pay off what you owe. Don't ever but a car again unless you have the cash to pay for it.
> 
> If you go trade it in, you will just be rolling the negative equity into the next one and investing more money into something that will lose 60% of it's value in the first few years. You have to break the cycle of always having that much debt or you will be broke for the rest of your life.
> 
> Hey, the truth hurts, but you are in no position right now to be driving new cars, period.


:agree


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## kerry71 (May 10, 2007)

Came back to re-read, and noticed a couple things

1. I misread your post. 43,000 isn't that bad, but is borderline for a lease.
2. You sound a lot like me. I had several trucks and SUVs that I kept rolling over negative equity until I ended up paying luxury car prices for a base model SUV. I didn't have to trade any of the previous vehicles. I alwasy had some excuse like it needed new tires anyway, or a new brake job, or it was due for a big service.

A couple hours later, I can see the positive side of trading for a lesser car to save money. I think lease vs buy is the only way to get out of being upside down and drive a new(er) car for you while saving some money each month. There are a lot of small cars out there that are fun to drive, so don't limit yourself to a pontiac just becasue you are trading in a pontiac. Remember your GTO is not the same class of GM car as the other Pontiacs on the lot. Consider a Honda Civic EX that gets similar or better gas mileage and has fully equipped models at around $18,000. Invest the $300 amonth and buy a nice pre-owned vehicle at the end of your lease.

If you decide to keep the goat, be frugal with maintenance by taking it to to reputable certified repair facilities that have the best prices for the services they offer. Keep your receipts. Places that specialize in brakes will usually have better prices on brake work. Jiffy lube, walmart, and many others have coupons every week, and they carry Mobile One. You don't have to have your work done at the dealership to keep the warranty in tact. 5 minutes to change the wiperblades yourself next time. You probably wasted that much time hearing the guy explain why that and the other laundry list of services needed to be done and waiting for him to do it than if you had picked up the blades and changed them yourself.

Again, good luck. Having been there several times, it is a tough decision, especially if you like the car you have.


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## raspantienator (Nov 20, 2007)

You are single , young with a good job and you have a GTO while you are completing a high level degree. There are many more questions and complexities in your life that I'm sure you cannot expose however from a very general view, you have a lot of sprockets going for you.
You also have choices so I would vote for you to reflect and to see what really pleases you at this wonderful time in your life. Don't forget to take under account your short and long term goals. 
Good luck in deciding and don't forget to get an opinion from those closest to you.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Here's my thoughts. 

I would look at the idea of buying that $1500 car. Right now you are 33 months into a 48 month smart buy (lease by another name) and you have 43,000 miles out of 48,000 allowed. The rate you are going you will be at 63,000 miles at the end of your smart buy. If you drive the beater most of the time and get your mileage back in line, at the end of your lease you will have about 48,000 miles. Even if it's 50 or 52 it won't matter much. 

If your buyout is $13,000, and you have 50,000 miles on the car, you can negotiate on the return of the car that even though you are over in miles that the car is worth more than 13,000. If they won't take it back without charging you mileage then you buyout the car and sell it. They lose. That means you can put about 500 miles a month on the GTO and 800 on the beater.

If you keep the mileage around 50,000 you won't have to do the 50k service, plus brakes and what not and that will save you the price of the beater right there. If you get a beater that's good on gas, the money you save on gas will pay for the insurance on the beater. 

Then after you turn the GTO in never lease a car again. You drive too many miles and you need to buy a car, not lease. As a matter of fact I'd think about driving the beater for 6 months after you turn in the GTO and put the GTO payment amount into a savings account. That way when you buy your next vehicle you have 3,000 or so to put down on it and you end up with equity at the start. 

If you don't like the idea of a beater, and I can understand not wanting to drive one, I'd dump the GTO now and get a certified used vehicle. But the key is going to be buying something that you can live with for 5 years and that the payment is low enough that 3 years down the road when it starts needing work you'll have the cash to do it. 

Around here they have a bunch of Pontiac Grand Prix's available. They run about 11,500 to 12,500. Figuring the negative equity you have in the GTO at around $3000-4000, and no money down, you'd have a payment of 315 to 330 a month. Your insurance would go down and your gas bill would too. It would take you almost 4 years till you had any equity in it to break even on a trade. If you bought one with 25,000 miles on it, it would have about 90,000 miles at the 4 year point.


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## PEARL JAM (Sep 6, 2005)

If you bought a used car outright, say one with 80-110,000 miles on it, any repairs it might need could be paid for with the monthly money now not going to the GTO. Another thought: Sell the GOAT, drive the Camaro for a month or two, saving two month's worth of payments for a used car.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

If you can afford a new car payment and the cost of a MA too, more power to you!! Wish I had my **** together that well at the same age. 
I`d be more inclined to side with the beater car guys here, maybe even a bike or somethin, pay cash for it and eliminate the car payment totally. Concentrate on paying your schooling and possibly a house off. If you find yourself ending up with an excess of spendable cash every month, PM me.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

You will not like this!

There is no easy way out. You have made the most common of mistakes for young people using credit to satify desires they couldn't otherwise afford. And buying when you did, lenders in a drunken orgy were only too happy to facilitate your bad decision making.

Fast forward to 2008.......you will find that credit markets have tightened significantly since you bought the GTO. The sub-prime debacle in real estate has caused lenders to both scrutinize (any) borrowers more closely and charge even more of a premium for higher risk loans. 

In addition, lenders are under vastly increased scrutiny by their boards because of the threat of increased oversight by the federal government. The feds feel compelled to do something about this national embarrassment just as the abuses of Enron, Worldcom, and Tyco less than a decade ago brought us Sarbanes Oxley legislation to clamp down on abuses in publicly held companies and protect investor's capital.

The fact that you are upside down on the GTO and will have significant negative equity in a "new" purchase will put you near the bottom of the barrel. Yes, your past decisions are exactly what lenders look at when deciding how much of their investor's capital they will give you and what they will charge you for the priviledge.

Your loan will potentially be packaged up and sold by the originator with lots of other loans as an asset backed security to 3rd party investors. The fact that the originator of the loan gave you more money than the asset (car) that guarantees it is worth causes these investors to lose sleep. Now, if you had lot's of income and a really high credit rating from other assets like cash in bank, securities, or real estate equity, the upside down loan might not matter. But, I'm guessing that's not the case here.

Scared? I hope so! You have made a life mistake! 

The last mistake you could make in t2his scenario would be to default on the lease. That will trash your credit for years to come. Want to buy a house? Maybe not today, but what about 5 years from now? You may not be able to. Or, you will incur severe penalties in the form of a higher interest rate because of your past decisions. Even a small rate increase on a 30 year loan for say $300K could ultimately cost you tens of thousands of dollars. So, whatever you do, keep current on the GTO.

Still glad you bought a car you couldn't afford?

Oh, I know you were able to make the monthly payment for the lease + insurance and put gas in it. And I'm not trying to be mean. But, I get pretty passionate about what I see going on in our society with young people who can't control their urge for immediate gratification of desires for material goods and unscrupulous lenders who are willing to help you commit financial suicide to make a buck.

A car, or any rapidly depreciating durable goods you spend significant money on, should be well within your means not barely within your means.

Do you have a personal budget? On paper (Excel)? Do you know exactly what you spend per month and where you spend it? 

Rent/Mortgage
Property Taxes
Renters/Home Insurance
Student Loans
Groceries
Restaurants
Heat
Electric
Life Insurance
Telephone
Cell Phone
Cable
Car Payment
Car Insurance
Gas
Entertainment
Savings
Retirement/401K
Etc.
After all the bills are paid and long term investment is satisfied, do you have a comfortable chunk of "free cash flow"? 

$2,000 per month is a nice starting place for those unforeseen expenses you won't be able to list in your monthly budget. The car breaks down. Car maintenance. Christmas. Vacations. Loss of job for a couple of months. Furniture. Down payment on a house. All of this should be covered before you start thinking about a new car.

Why? Because $h!t happens. Credit markets melt down, economies go into recession, employers cut expenses (read: jobs), illness can strike any anyone!

If this doesn't add up for you, then you can't afford a new car! Buy what you can afford! Fiscal Discipline will serve you well throughout your life. I am determined that my kids will learn this basic life skill. The hard way if necessary. It's one of the best things I could ever do for them.

As for your problem, you have dug yourself a hole. You will have to climb out of it. And it won't be easy. You have simply deferred the financial pain. It's time to pay up. Please don't do anything that will dig the hole deeper. Like, rolling over your negative equity into another car loan. Payback will come and it will only get worse. Face into it now!

A beater may be an option but, with that comes increased cash drain.

The upfront cash to buy a beater
Insurance
Registration
Taxes (sales & property)
Maintenance (a beater can offer big surprises)
Can you afford the cash drain until the lease is up on the GTO? If not, your best bet is to suffer through the pain on the GTO lease and consider it tuition in the University Of Life.

Since you did so well with this lease, why are you ready to go down that path again? You ignored the mileage requirements and now complain that you can't afford to drive the car because the termination costs will kill you. I agree with Fergy. A lease is not a wise option for someone without discipline or the means to absorb the increased termination costs easily.

How about a zero cost option that will actually save you money from the start? What about public transportation? Can you use buses, trains, a bike, or walk to work / school. Are you renting? What about moving to make this possible or cut down on mileage?

Also, I don't know where you're getting your MA but, if they offer business courses, you might consider taking a couple of basic finance courses to help you build a toolset you can use for the rest of your life.

And, before everyone proclaims me the Great Giant A$$ho!e of the forum once again. Let me say that I and and the people I work with make money off people like you every day. Lots of money! You make it easy! Greed, desire, vanity, economic ignorance, and lack of discipline create incredible opportunities every day. Do I sound like Scrooge? If I wanted to be mean, I'd keep my advice to myself and let you willingly fork over the rights to every dollar you're ever gonna earn. 

Take the advice! Get control of your fiscal life now, or pay forever and quitcherbitchin!

Good luck!


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## noz34me (Dec 15, 2005)

Did not read through the entire post above this one, but it appears some good points were made.

I've also advocated time and again on this forum to young people, still in school ( or not in school) that the GTO is not the right car at that time in their lives.

If you can sell the GTO outright, you may be better off, however these cars were marketing nightmares when they were new, and I see no reason why they aren't still, given their rapid depreciation.

I would recommend you find a good reliable USED Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla, and enjoy getting 35 mpg on average no matter how you drive it. 

Get yourself "right side up" on your debts. You're in a Masters program, so you're obviously not stupid. 

Buying another new car in your situation with the associated depreciation IS stupid. I don't think it needs to be a $1500 car though- - my guess is that a $1500 car will nickel and dime you and not be the most reliable if you need reliable transportation. I would recommend looking for something in the $7K -$10K range, 50K - 70K miles, 4 cylinder reliable Japanese vehicle.

Good Luck.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Wing,

That's some real good life advice. 

I'm in a position I could go buy, well a new Porsche Turbo, or a Benz AMG or maybe a BMW M car. A Z06 would be a more than half down deal. I'm still driving the Cavalier and looking for the right deal on a GTO mostly or the other car that appeals to me. I'm going to pay cash. I'm 41 years old will never buy another car with car payments. In 13 years when my house, that even with depressed market prices I have 50% equity in, is paid off, I'll never borrow money unless the terms are real favorable to me. I love credit card companies that are stupid enough to offer me 0% for a year. I have one year to invest their money and make money off their money which I do pretty good at. 

Long story short, too many people buy big screens for $1500 when a $300 set will do most of what they need. They buy it on a credit card so they can impress friends. What they don't realize is with 13% interest and $10 over a minimum payment, that TV really costs $2500. The monthly payment on it then takes money away from other things that they want to do, so they then end up charging that stuff. Then it gets to the point where you can't buy anything you want unless you charge it. Then financial disaster strikes and your watching the ads on that big screen going, hey that guy will finance me for a car even though I just filed bankruptcy, cool I can get a new leftover 2007 Monte Carlo with $675 a month car payments for 7 years. Literally a person I work with did buy a Monte just like that. That Monte cost this girl more money than my 2006 Corvette cost me. It's nuts, plain and simple insanity. 

Really Jon, a little bit of pain and suffering now will pay huge dividends in the long run. At 28 if you put $2400 per year, $200 per month, into just an average retiremnet plan, it will turn into massive money for retiremnet. That $2400 invested at age 28 is 44,800 at age 60 and your retiremnet portfolio is worth 716,800 for just 200 a month. Start when your 36 because you need to have fun while your still young and the amount changes to 268,800. That measly $200 a month for 8 years that you had fun with cost you almost a half million. That's what this GTO versus a more reasonable means of transportation really costs you. That means when you are old and your bones ache and you don't want to get up and work, you'll be heading in to a job where they really don't want you around because your too old to do the job. Take Wings advice. It's worth it's weight in gold.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

noz34me said:


> Did not read through the entire post above this one, but it appears some good points were made.
> 
> I've also advocated time and again on this forum to young people, still in school ( or not in school) that the GTO is not the right car at that time in their lives.
> 
> ...


I got my 2003 Chevy Cavalier with 37,000 miles on it for $6200. It has A/C, PW, PL, Cruise, ABS, P-sunroof, and it's the LS with the nicer, for a Cav, interior. Parts are cheap. The car is reliable, after 20 years of building the same basic design, there were no glitches or recalls. Insurance is cheap. Around town I get 30 mpg and on the highway I've gotten 40, but mostly get 38 at 75-80mph. Cops don't even look twice at you if your only 10 over or less. 

The only reason I was suggesting a $1500 beater is because everyone should have $1500 cash sitting around. He could use the car to keep miles off the GTO and reliability wouldn't be a huge issue if still has the GTO. He could pay cash for it and then any repairs would definately need to be done by him to save money.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

I agree with the others, and yep, this is turning into a "preach" thread to the young whippersnapper who would've been far better served pursuing a finance degree.... 

You don't have to pay cash for a car, but good lord, you DO have to run the numbers to the end of the deal such that you know where you'll be sitting in 3 years before you sign the papers! Sometimes leases are decent deals when you aren't planning on keeping the car anyhow. Sometimes..... They weren't handing out good deals on GTO's.... You should have bought. If you couldn't afford the payment on a purchase, you should have realized that you couldn't afford the car..

Dig out by making better-informed better-thought-thru decisions from this moment forward... You're a victim of your own decisions, and this ain't rocket science fiction....


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## GTOJon (Jan 25, 2005)

First off, I'd like to thank many of you who have provided me with well thought out and thorough advice to my concerns.

I feel that I must state that I did 'not' make this thread or ask for advice because I am struggling or need to get rid of the car, this is completely not the case. Believe me, this "whippersnapper" runs and crunches numbers often and has budget plans. Not that this matters, but I don't even have a blemish on my credit history 

I chose the SmartBuy option because at the beginning, it was the 'cheapest' car payment that I could get. I had every intention to keep the car 'forever' so I was (am) not concerned with my high mileage. The full time job I had when I got the car was very demanding in regards to traveling, but I did not care about the mileage. I was also living with my parents at the time paying ONLY for my car, insurance, gas, and personal bills. I could have purchased a Cadillac if I wanted to (but that would have been a poor decision - STUPID), so money certainly was not an issue.

Should I have waited to put down a bigger down payment? ABSOLUTELY! Should I have waited and sold (on the street) my perfectly good and new car that I traded in and took a loss big time on? ABSOLUTELY! I could not afford the 2004 GTO so I waited a year and got the 2005. I was affraid that I would not be able to get the GTO color combination that I wanted and the one I got was 70+ miles away which lit a fire under my butt too. I felt so pressed for time that I felt it was now or never (yes a young guy dieing for this car). So I did it, with my own money. Again, I was living with my parents and all the money that went into the GTO (for everything per month) was not even half (with my older less paying full time job) of what I was left with at the end of the month. To me it was a no brainer that yes, I can have this car and have no worries.

April of 2006 was a huge turn of events, including an opportunity that I was in no way passing up, even if it meant parting with the car. Available to me was a 3 bedroom apartment in a house for a much lower rent then what the market calls for in my area. A couple friends and I almost completely renovated this house for the owner (a family member) and was willing to finance it if "we" did all of the work, thus saving the owner a massive amount of money. So from April 2006 to November of 2006, we renovated the house, ranging from sanding and painting the floors, to gutting the kitchen all the way to the beams in the walls to the plywood on the floor, to the bathrooms, and the godforsaken paneling that covered 80% of the house; nearly everything was fixed/replaced. Since that project was complete in November of 2006...this has been my home. A 1960's home now fit for the modern year complete to the last trimming. Again IF I had to choose this apartment (house) or the car...it's definitely keeping the apartment.

Again with all of this said, I am not struggling whatsoever to pay for the GTO. My main point in asking for advice was my thoughts on "worth". Is it worth keeping this car or can I deal with driving something a little less and be smart and try to save more money than what I am now.

I guess this really stems from some of my dissatisfaction with the car when compared to the money being payed for it. Yes, it is awesome to drive AND have a very well-built car with an LS2 powerplant. My issue comes with the bare bones of amenities (which I was aware of before purchase) such as the lack of basic items (nowadays) such as heated seats, having a sub-par stereo, mp3 plug in would be nice , a damn trunk :lol:, how about a power lock switch! :willy:....just to name a few things...

But hey, I knew this going into it, right? I guess just call it, "the after-honeymoon phase".

With all of that said, I have been paying for the car since early 2005. I have roughly another year to finish off the payments and then I can take a loan out for the balloon payment. I may then have a lower payment when taking a loan out on the balloon. I can also use money saved during this time frame to throw into the balloon and walk away with a minimal payment. Finally, I 'could' sell the car at the balloon payment and break even or make a few bucks. Depending on the value of the car and/or my desire to keep the car, it will be fine in the end.

I will definitely take the excellent advice given and will 'at least' save up half of what a car is worth when purchasing if in fact it is a car that I would like to have for quite some time. Otherwise leasing and getting rid of a car after 3 years may be best. Remember, when I was getting this car, I planned on keeping it for a very long time. Things change; perhaps they will change again.


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## GTOJon (Jan 25, 2005)

After re-reading my post, I forgot to mention that I have a faulty gauge cluster that the dealership is taking it's time to address, and 'perhaps' defected tie rods which also has to be taken care of (steering wheel shimmy when braking)...I guess this combined with the other downfalls of the car (my opinion) made me feel this way and hence the thread.

I'm sure I have left alot out of what I wanted to say, but I hope it adequately explains things a little better.

Again, I pondered the entire weekend on what I wanted to do. I have read every post throughout the weekend but I did not want to respond until I had absorbed all of the comments and advice.

I certainly appreciate the advice not only about the car, but with savings for the future in life, etc. It's never too early to plan for the future, and fortunately with me being 26 and receiving an MA in a few months, I have the opportunity to save even more money for the future.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

I hear what you're saying.... And I know what it's like when a car starts annoying you...

Just beware of the grass-is-always-greener trap. I fell into it a couple years back, and rather than boring you with my diatribe of every combination of cars I've ever owned, I'll get to my opinion...

I had always had the opportunity to own "fun impractical" cars from day-one. Then came marriage and family (kinda late in life for me, which I'd recommend to anybody, life is easier when you figure out how to do it PRIOR to involving a female...).

When I got married 4 years ago, I had a slightly modded 2000 F150 Lightning as my daily pack-mule. And what a fantastic vehicle it was, it did EVERYTHING, from towing a car trailer, to hauling dirt bikes, to handling anything Lowe's could toss at it, to being fast as owl-poop and an absolute GRIN to drive. It was the perfect all-around daily vehicle (wish Ford still made 'em, the SRT-10 Dodge is too heavy, more $$ to mod, gets 10mpg on a good day, and my "L" with a lousy $800 bucks in mods used to bury those pigs at the track regularly...).

THEN we had a daughter... Combined with my wife's 13-year-old daughter, and my 3-year-old daughter, my beloved Lightning was an endangered species, not enough room to be practical allowing dad to contribute in any kid-hauling duties...

So I started having the same grass-is-greener thoughts, "this stereo stinks, and there's no room for a good stereo..., this interior is spartan, where's my heated seats, where's my navigation and climate-control?...."

I sold the Lightning and bought a new, loaded-to-the-gills F150 supercrew Lariat 4X4... It had the audiophile system, heated seats, everything you could feasibly pile on a truck.

It sucked, the 2 years I suffered that slow, lumbering, cumbersome pig, were the worst 2-years of driving of my life.. All of the modern conveniences, the comfort, the refinement, the spiffy interior, all of that did nothing to distract from the fact that I was BORED TO TEARS driving around, I had joined the rest of the mindless lemmings on the road that hate driving... Well, no duh, I understand why most people hate driving, they drive boring practical appliances, and it sucks the life out of you!!!

I pitched the big F150 Lariat for the GTO, gave up the mind-blowing stereo, the heated seats, the 4-door practicality, the climate-control, everything, just to return to the PRIMARY PRIORITY.... Having fun behind the wheel again.

Me, I can't bring myself to drive a "practical beater"... Life's too short. The car you drive every day oughta bring you some joy, some fun... The times spent alone in your car commuting is sometimes the only "down-time" you get in the day, and your mental health is so much healthier when you can turn those mornings and afternoons into good therapy...

So screw all the frills and luxuries... One day, you'll be able to afford a car like that, and I recommend saving it for weekends and nights out and nice occassions. But for the day-to-day, keep something FUN and exhilerating, it makes life worth living...

You guys who park your Goat in the garage, and drive a 6-year-old S-10 to work, I don't know how you do it... I admire you, because somehow you make it work and it works for you, but I've tried before, and it just starts killing me one day at a time... ... The only "beater" I ever bought (during a period that I was driving 120 miles daily) that I kinda liked and bonded with was a used Lincoln Mark VIII... You could pick 'em up for nothing, they had all the frills, comfortable as heck, great stereo, great handling, and pretty good performance from the 4.6-4V... The only downside was that all the gals suspected you might like guys... :confused :lol:


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## macgto7004 (Jul 22, 2007)

Wing_nut,
You have redeemed yourself from the title of the Great Giant A**hole of this forum!
That was about the most brutally honest and insightful post I have ever seen. 

Kids today really do need a course in finacial managment to survive in the world today.

Also, I really think it is a crime that dealers are allowed to get away with such predatory lending practices.

We have a dealer here locally who were once a respected MB dealer. Since then, they have become the harbigers of buy here/pay here financing BS.
Big, loud flashy ads proclaiming they can finance anyone with any credit, when in essence, they are raping the consumers without a condom. They are a disease on today's financial community.
Yes, the buyer needs to be educated, I don't deny that, but these institutions are cultivating a society of indebtedness, that will be the downfall of this country.

Good post Wing_nut. I take back (almost) every nasty thing I have thought about you! :cool :cheers


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## rcu316 (Jan 28, 2007)

69bossnine said:


> Me, I can't bring myself to drive a "practical beater"... Life's too short. The car you drive every day oughta bring you some joy, some fun... The times spent alone in your car commuting is sometimes the only "down-time" you get in the day, and your mental health is so much healthier when you can turn those mornings and afternoons into good therapy...



My thoughts exactly. When I was 18, many many years ago, I had a beater for about a year. I don't drive a lot other than to work and every since I have sworn I was going to drive a decent ride to work! :agree


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

macgto7004 said:


> Wing_nut,
> 
> Good post Wing_nut. I take back (almost) every nasty thing I have thought about you! :cool :cheers


 
Shhhh! You're gonna ruin my image.


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## raspantienator (Nov 20, 2007)

To be young with those such desicions he is fortunate to be in process of finance managment.

I'm on the verge of leaving the heard as well- Not happy with the GTO and service.
As I would say to my young friend- keep it affordable and live happy and healthy. That is the key.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

raspantienator said:


> To be young with those such desicions he is fortunate to be in process of finance managment.
> 
> I'm on the verge of leaving the heard as well- Not happy with the GTO and service.
> As I would say to my young friend- keep it affordable and live happy and healthy. That is the key.


Not to harp on what I stated earlier, but had you maybe given the Pontiac dealer a chance with warranty work at the offset instead of another dealer relaying messages from you etc maybe you'd be in a better position and the problems corrected? You are just now getting face to face interaction. 

I don't understand why the Pontiac dealer shipped your car to another Pontiac dealer to fix it....:confused 

Before you write them off... Talk to the service manager and tell him why the Ford dealer was involved. If they are carrying a torch about this maybe you guys can get off on the right foot instead of any resentment on both sides.


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## raspantienator (Nov 20, 2007)

I greatly appreciate what you are saying. At this point I am too hot to speak with anyone. Ford doesn't see why I am upset which upsets me even more.
Ford took it to another Pontiac dealer because Rose Buick/ Pontiac would not correct the shifter rattle. I beleive there is a political battle going on between the dealers and me and my goat unintentionally got in the middle of it. 

They have worked on my car 3 times and turned it away twice...what chance do I have redeemeing myself with these people now?
Also, I have no faith they know what the hell they are doing at Rose Buick. So now I will have to establish a 1:1 relationship with Mangino Pontiac in Ballston Spa- an hour away.
Not in to a long distance relationship either. 
I'm ready to sell.
Thanks for listening.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

raspantienator said:


> what chance do I have redeemeing myself with these people now?


Through dialog.

I'd go in and sit down with the managers and tell them why Ford was your liaison. Tell them you want direct dealings with them and see what happens. If at that point they still have a hard on....do what ya gotta do. 

Many of us have had some warranty problems. It's not so much the issues with your car, it's the way it was handled by a middleman. Logic always tells you cut out the middle man.


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## raspantienator (Nov 20, 2007)

That would seem to be the logically best choice Judge. Right now, I'm not feeling to logical...I need some cool down time. I will first hit the weights and then play the drums when I get home. That usually works well for me.

Thanks Judge.


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