# Muncie 4 Speed Phs Documentation Question



## take5 (Aug 9, 2009)

When ordering PHS documentaion will the original build sheet show the type of Muncie 4 Speed ordered and placed in GTO when it was manufactured?
I've taken a look at the Muncie web site referred to from the GTO Forum and want to get a handle on the type of 4 speed in my 1966 GOAT.
At this point the casing has the numbers 7-1 that I believe refer to the month and day, i.e. July 1st ( in 1966 the year was not placed on the casing)
Also, the car had a 4:11 rear end when I bought it as the second owner.
Did the dealer or factory install the 4:11 gears?
Also, do all of the Muncie 4 Speeds have the following description on the casing " GENERAL MOTORS PAT. PENDING " ?


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

take5 said:


> Also, the car had a 4:11 rear end when I bought it as the second owner.
> Did the dealer or factory install the 4:11 gears?


Can't answer your tranny questions, but, they never had 4:11 gears in a '66. In fact, they never made a GTO with 4:11s in any year. Up until '72 the biggest gear you could get was a 4:33, next one down was a 3:90. '72's biggest was a 3:55 and the years after went down from there.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Yes, the PHS will highlight the transmission that the car originally came with.
As Greengoat said, 4.11 was not an option. If it truly has 4.11's, they were installed after delivery. The car could be ordered with a 3.90 from the factory but if the 4.33's were ordered the car still came with 3.90's and the dealer installed the 4.33's before delivery to the customer. 
The vast majority of cars came with the wide ratio M20. The only cars that came factory with the close ratio M21 had to be ordered with the 3.90 or 4.33 gear ratios too. The General motors patent pending was on all of them. The important casting number is on the right side of the main case and should be 3885010 to be a 66-67 trans. If it is different, it probably isn't the original.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Those gear ratio options were also the same for `65. 3.90 and 4.33 only with heavy duty metallic brake linings and the close ratio tranny. That is if I'm reading my PHS documentation correctly.


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

Yep, those gear rations were available from '65 - '71. '64 went up to 3:90...


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## take5 (Aug 9, 2009)

Thanks again for everyone's response and letting me know what took place by both Pontiac & the dealers.
I will get my PHS Documentation ordered as the restoration is moving forward.


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## pawpaw (Jan 30, 2010)

I think the close ratio had a 2:20 first gear and the wide had a 2:56. I ordered a '66 when I was 18 and naturally ordered all the high performance options. Even opened up the air scoop and made an air box for the 3 two's. I had the 3:90 saf t trak rear, trans. ignition, handling package. No power anything but the engine. One of the ultimate crusing car's!! Good luck on your restoration.:cheers


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Didn't the 4.+ gears come in the 12 bolt rear and not the 10 bolt? If so then only the 455 HO would have had the 12 bolt rear?


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

GTO JUDGE said:


> Didn't the 4.+ gears come in the 12 bolt rear and not the 10 bolt? If so then only the 455 HO would have had the 12 bolt rear?


No, the 4.33's were an option on my 67 PHS but the 12 bolt didn't come along for another 3 years.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Too Many Projects said:


> No, the 4.33's were an option on my 67 PHS but the 12 bolt didn't come along for another 3 years.


Yea I know the 12 bolt debuted in 70 but I wasn't sure the 10 bolts offered ratios in the 4. range. I have a 12 bolt with 4.10 and want to eventually change out them to like a 3.55 but want to retain the 12 bolt rear.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

GTO JUDGE said:


> Yea I know the 12 bolt debuted in 70 but I wasn't sure the 10 bolts offered ratios in the 4. range. I have a 12 bolt with 4.10 and want to eventually change out them to like a 3.55 but want to retain the 12 bolt rear.


In most cases, you will need to get a 3 series carrier for the 12 bolt. Some people used spacers on a 3 series to mount the 4 series ring gear. If that is the case, you would just change the gears.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Too Many Projects said:


> In most cases, you will need to get a 3 series carrier for the 12 bolt. Some people used spacers on a 3 series to mount the 4 series ring gear. If that is the case, you would just change the gears.


I hope its just spacers I am getting conflicting information. Some say I can only go to a 3:90 some say I can go to a 3:55 some say I can't it depends on the set up in there now.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Judge: as stated, 4.33 gears were available in the stock, 8.2 10 bolt starting in 1965. If you want to change the gears in your 12 bolt from 4.10's to 3.55, it's not a problem!


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

geeteeohguy said:


> Judge: as stated, 4.33 gears were available in the stock, 8.2 10 bolt starting in 1965. If you want to change the gears in your 12 bolt from 4.10's to 3.55, it's not a problem!


ALRIGHTY THEN!!!! I will go with that!! 

Now, who wants to trade 4.10's for 3.55's?? When I had the cover off they looked perfect.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

4.10s, that car must have never left town!


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Nothing inside that 12 bolt is gonna swap with a 10. Is it a correct Pontiac (Buick) or a Chevelle transplant. I don't know anything about interchangeability in the Buicks but a Chev 3 series will go down to 3.07 When you had the cover off, did you notice if the ring gear was flush with the carrier (1 line) or did it have 2 lines indicating a spacer plate between it and the carrier ?


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Rukee said:


> 4.10s, that car must have never left town!


I think someone at one time raced it. I take it on the turnpike and bypass at times, but mostly it is local driving thing tacks at 3K about 55 mph. With a 44 tooth Speedo gear I reduced the 18 mph over to about 12 or so at 55 or so mph. I think with the 3.55's I can get it more in line to where it should be and maybe use the original gear or get a correct one


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Too Many Projects said:


> Nothing inside that 12 bolt is gonna swap with a 10. Is it a correct Pontiac (Buick) or a Chevelle transplant. I don't know anything about interchangeability in the Buicks but a Chev 3 series will go down to 3.07 When you had the cover off, did you notice if the ring gear was flush with the carrier (1 line) or did it have 2 lines indicating a spacer plate between it and the carrier ?


It's out of a Chevelle. I don't know about the lines and spacer plates. I do know 12 and 10 bolts wont mesh but I don't want to lose the 12 bolt and if I can get to 3.55 ill be happy.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

When I went from 3.90 to 3.55s I couldn't believe the difference, it actually feels faster as it has longer legs between the gears. 4.10s to 3.55 will make a HUGE difference.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

I just wanna be able to drive it past a gas station without the car trying to steer itself in to get gas. And.. to drive longer distances without the tach panting.


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## PDWEEDY (Feb 27, 2010)

As Mitch said there will be a six digit number running longways on the casing that should match the vin and will be on the PHS papers as well , good luck .
regards , Weedy


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## BCsGTO (May 17, 2010)

The 4.11 gear ratio was available in 1967. I have a born with all original 335 hp close ratio 4.11 posi car. If you ordered the close ratio with the 3.90/4.33 gear you could get the dealer installed option only 4.11's. It makes for a great light to light car but a high rever on the freeway. I haven't got my PHS docs yet but I don't think they will capture the 4.11's install unless maybe they were ordered by the dealer with the car??? We didn't spec out the car it was actually sitting on the showroom floor with this configuration.......thank dad! (B.C.)


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