# No oil on rockers



## Bluedog (Aug 8, 2018)

Hey, guys. I’m fresh off fixing my most recent screw up. On to the current one.
Mine is a 66 with a 389. Stock cam, HEI, roller tip rockers on pressed in studs.
I just got her put back together and fired up. Seems to run very smooth. I’ve got 60 pounds of oil pressure(high volume pump) but no oil at the rockers. For a time, the oil was slowly running out of the rocker but now has stopped all together.
I tightened a couple rocker nuts well beyond where they should be just to see if it would quiet the clatter to no avail.
I’m aware of the plug on the rear of the passenger head because I learned the hard way. Wouldn’t get 60 pounds of pressure if it were not there.
I’m wondering about the two plugs behind the timing case and whether they may have popped out.
Also, lifters maybe. I know that a person is supposed to be able to torque the rocker nuts to 20 pounds. After coming up with no better ideas I tried this. I can’t get 20 pounds of torque on them without torquing it so much that I’m afraid of breaking things. They just keep “sqooshing” down.
Ideas please. I’ve been working on my Old Mans car for the last 10 years. I’m forty two now. Need to get things done soon before it my kids turn.


----------



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Bluedog said:


> Hey, guys. I’m fresh off fixing my most recent screw up. On to the current one.
> Mine is a 66 with a 389. Stock cam, HEI, roller tip rockers on pressed in studs.
> I just got her put back together and fired up. Seems to run very smooth. I’ve got 60 pounds of oil pressure(high volume pump) but no oil at the rockers. For a time, the oil was slowly running out of the rocker but now has stopped all together.
> I tightened a couple rocker nuts well beyond where they should be just to see if it would quiet the clatter to no avail.
> ...


First, you may have the wrong lifters. Sometimes Chevy lifters are used in place of Pontiac lifters - they fit, are the same size, BUT, the pushrod seat is deeper (_requiring longer pushrods_) and the oil band around them is in the wrong place and can cut off the oil supply to the rockers. Rare when this happens, but it can. So confirm this first if you have a receipt, if not, intake has to come off to physically remove a lifter and check. See pics. Chevy lifter on the left.

Second can be lifter pre-load. Since you can tighten down the rockers and it forces the plunger to bottom out on the lifter (if I am reading you correctly), then you may have the correct lifters. This leads to other checks.

Has the block/heads been milled? Did you check rocker arm geometry? Did you adjust the lifters while the engine was running (ie "zero lash them").

Stock bottleneck rocker arm studs get torqued down, period. However, you can use 3/8" poly locks in place of the 3/8" rocker arm nuts and manually adjust the lifters to "zero lash." If you do a search in the forums, this has been covered as well as checking rocker arm geometry. If the lifters are not adjusted correctly, I have found too tight won't push oil out the rockers, then that could be the issue. With engine running, you should see the pushrods spinning. If not, then the rocker arm nuts/adjustment is too tight.

It is possible that the 2 cup plugs, one or both, in the front of the block behind the timing gear could have come loose. These need to be staked and are often replaced by taping the hole and using a pipe plug so they don't come loose. I don't know of any way to check this, and I would not pull the engine apart until it was a last resort. I would check the top end/lifter adjustment first.


----------



## Jaysando (Jul 4, 2020)

Great info Jim!!!


----------



## Bluedog (Aug 8, 2018)

Thanks, PJ. I will search for info on checking rocker arm geometry. When I got my heads back from getting a valve job the owner told me he cut the studs down because he thought I had put a radical cam in. 
This sounds like it would change the geometry. 
Also, I initially set the valves using a Jim Hand article. Then I set them again with the car running. 
After reading your response I see that they need to be torqued. 
One more thing. Can you tell me a little more about lifter preload?
Thank you.


----------



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Bluedog said:


> Thanks, PJ. I will search for info on checking rocker arm geometry. When I got my heads back from getting a valve job the owner told me he cut the studs down because he thought I had put a radical cam in.
> This sounds like it would change the geometry.
> Also, I initially set the valves using a Jim Hand article. Then I set them again with the car running.
> After reading your response I see that they need to be torqued.
> ...


Have no idea what you machinist is referring to "cutting the studs down" means. Never ever heard of this. The only thing I can even think of would be to cut/mill the tops of the studs flat a minimal amount for use with polylocks as the factory studs have a slight rounded top/finish and can cause the polylock set-screw to not grip as well (but they still grip really good) and can slowly loosen up over time - so you just have to check periodically.

I would get that clarified with the shop as to what he means.

If too big of a cam, the factory press-in studs can pull up and out, but you said you have a factory cam, so should not be an issue and still not sure why your machinist would have to cut anything?

Did your machinist use new rocker arm studs? Are they factory as is found on the heads? Did he install ARP 7/16" studs? Bottleneck studs have a 7/16" base and taper to 3/8" to form the threaded end the rocker arm nut goes on. That transition is where the term "bottleneck" comes from. The Pontiac rocker arm nut is designed to be torqued down onto this "neck." If tightened and loosened a few times, it can affect the nuts and they will no longer hold torque and begin to loosen up over time and lose adjustment. You should be able to easily see this neckdown by removing a rocker arm and looking at the stud. If you do not see it, then perhaps your machinist used something else.

Yes, first check your rocker arm geometry so you ensure you have the correct length pushrods. If the heads/block were milled, this could mean that the factory pushrods could be too long. So check the wear pattern on the top of the valve stem, again, do a search on our forum and you will find info on doing this, or easily found on the web.

If you do not go with the torque the rocker nuts down, per factory, then that is where the poly locks come in. I believe this is what the Jim Hand book goes through. You cannot "zero lash" the lifters with factory nuts, period. They will back off quickly, they must be torqued down. Zero lash lifters with engine running, one side at a time, and it can get messy. With stock rocker arms, you can purchase oil deflector clips that fit to the rocker arm cup side where the pushrod fits. I think you can use these with the Comp Cams roller rockers, but not with those big aftermarket roller type rockers with the needle bearings.

Each lifter manufacturer has their own spec on lifter pre-load due in part to the travel of the plunger within the lifter. The "zero lash" setting while engine is running will get you to where you want, but again, depends on lifter. I always turn the rocker arm nut 1/4 turn more once the lifter has stopped "clacking" and settled down. Others may go 1/2 turn or more, but I go 1/4 turn and then tighten the set screw in the poly lock. This procedure only works with poly locks, not factory nuts.


----------



## Bluedog (Aug 8, 2018)

I will talk to the machine shop when they open tomorrow. One thing I can see that they did was to add a spacer under the valve spring to stiffen them I suppose. 
Here’s my question for the day...I have tightened the rockers with the car running. They are definitely tight enough to stop the clacking but the clacking remains. The volume of the clacking does not change no matter the tightness or looseness of the nut. 
Combined with a lack of oil coming through the pushrod where does that leave me? Lifters and cam...


----------



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Bluedog said:


> I will talk to the machine shop when they open tomorrow. One thing I can see that they did was to add a spacer under the valve spring to stiffen them I suppose.
> Here’s my question for the day...I have tightened the rockers with the car running. They are definitely tight enough to stop the clacking but the clacking remains. The volume of the clacking does not change no matter the tightness or looseness of the nut.
> Combined with a lack of oil coming through the pushrod where does that leave me? Lifters and cam...


If the shop is close by, I would have him come over and look at the engine and the oiling problem. He may see something you are not, or let you know he may have to pull the engine apart to see what is going on. If it was an error on his part, he should cover it if he was the shop that assembled it.

Then go from there. Hopefully it will be something simple and the shop can get you back on track, and no damage has been done.


----------

