# 05 Dyno numbers under 1000 Miles



## Braman'sGTO (Mar 14, 2005)

I live in VA and just had my GTO Dynoed today. It was 65F, about 13 Ft above sea leavle, low humidity, 700 Miles and just did my first oil change yesterday. The same Dyno shop ran another 05 3 weeks ago with roughly the same conditions and he put down 319rwhp. When mine was run today it put down 323rwhp and 320rwtq. I have read several different posts and they seem to be consistant with what I put down. I have also read on LS2.com and people have been posting 340's and up, they have between 1500 - 2000 miles on there cars. Im wondering what everyone else has been dynoing at?

Next question, has anyone put a CAI on an 05 yet and what kind of improvement have you seen?

Also, anyone else who had there 05 dynoed, when they checked the air/fuel's were you running rich? Mine was running fairly rich from stock.

I have someone making me a CAI and should have it on and # posted within the next week or 2.


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## GTOJ (Jan 29, 2005)

What kind of dyno is it, Mustang or Dynojet? Those are some lows numbers if it is a Dynojet.


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## Braman'sGTO (Mar 14, 2005)

I think it is a Dynomatics dyno, unless that is just the softwear that they use.


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## Braman'sGTO (Mar 14, 2005)

Ok, I just had my GTO dynoed again at 1500 miles and it's up 5 hp and 5 tq. Im now at 328 rwhp and 331 rwtq. I have seen another 05 dynoed on the same dyno and at 3000 miles he was pushing less hp to the wheel that I did at 700 miles. Has anyone else done multiple dyno runs to see what kind of gains you get over time?


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## ouijaguy (Mar 16, 2005)

i had my done yesterday...345rwhp and 339rwtq...intake and exhaust. that is just my first time getting it dynoed.


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## Braman'sGTO (Mar 14, 2005)

What kind of dyno did they use and do you know if they were SAE corrected, my numbers were


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## 2005Goat (Mar 21, 2005)

Had mine dynoed today with 5000 miles on it. 321/322 on a dynojet and sae corrected. It was put on the dyno just 5 minutes after driving to the shop, I'm thinking my numbers were low because the car was hot. I've seen another 05 dyno 315 hp and then sit for an hour and the same car dynoed 335hp. Was your car cool when it was dynoed?


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## ouijaguy (Mar 16, 2005)

my car was cool on the first run, like i said the second run was like a couple of minutes later...then the third was after about 10 mins...as far as i know, they are sae corrected numbers. the dyno was a dynojet. if i can find a scanner, i will scan my printout and post it.


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## Clevite 77 (Dec 21, 2004)

Seriously concidering a GTO, I'm quite dissapointed. The LS1 F-bodies were rated at 325hp (talking SS/WS6) at the flywheel. They were dynoing at 300hp at the wheels. 

If all they have is 320-340hp at the wheels, I may have to consider something different. Hell I can mod my 2001 Regal GS (sister to the GTP) and easily walk a GTO. I'm also considering the Mustang GT 500, this will have the 5.4L S/C just like the lightning/Ford GT and will have 450hp, and 450lbs of tq, as you know the 03-04 cobra's only had 390 hp, but with the factory S/C, it's easy to get 450-500 at the rear wheels. 

Granted Ford sucks to all holy hell, and all I hear is great stuff about the GTO's build and quality, but if I'm wanting a sporty fast car, I'm not too sure if the GTO is for me.

Looks are still a little on the "tame" side.
I thought power would be a little more, but 400 - 15%, is what ya get.
It weighs a ton, 
I like the fact it still has 2 doors
and it's nice and comfortible.


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## newagegoat (Mar 3, 2005)

Clevite 77 said:


> Seriously concidering a GTO, I'm quite dissapointed. The LS1 F-bodies were rated at 325hp (talking SS/WS6) at the flywheel. They were dynoing at 300hp at the wheels.
> 
> If all they have is 320-340hp at the wheels, I may have to consider something different. Hell I can mod my 2001 Regal GS (sister to the GTP) and easily walk a GTO. I'm also considering the Mustang GT 500, this will have the 5.4L S/C just like the lightning/Ford GT and will have 450hp, and 450lbs of tq, as you know the 03-04 cobra's only had 390 hp, but with the factory S/C, it's easy to get 450-500 at the rear wheels.
> 
> ...


What do you consider easily walking a GTO? I just ran a 13.40 @ 104 with 700 miles on the car on a 80 degree day which leads me to beleive that once the car is broke in and on a cooler day will possible run 13.00. This was a bone stock 2005 auto. Your going to have to do more than mod the hell out of your buick to easily walk a 05 GTO. I've seen fully modded 04 GTP's and I'm not just talking a pulley change run in the low 13's, so unless you have some magic trick up your sleave when it comes to the 3800 motors I don't see you walking anything?


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## GTOFan (May 3, 2005)

Clevite 77 said:


> Seriously concidering a GTO, I'm quite dissapointed. The LS1 F-bodies were rated at 325hp (talking SS/WS6) at the flywheel. They were dynoing at 300hp at the wheels.
> 
> If all they have is 320-340hp at the wheels, I may have to consider something different. Hell I can mod my 2001 Regal GS (sister to the GTP) and easily walk a GTO. I'm also considering the Mustang GT 500, this will have the 5.4L S/C just like the lightning/Ford GT and will have 450hp, and 450lbs of tq, as you know the 03-04 cobra's only had 390 hp, but with the factory S/C, it's easy to get 450-500 at the rear wheels.
> 
> ...



I also considered buying an 03/04 cobra last year and I actually like mustangs (I own a 65 convertible V8 4 speed). However, after driving the cobra and now owning an 05 GTO, the GTO feels more powerful. Some guys are running under 13 seconds stock from what I've read on these forums. The GTO doesn't weigh any more than a cobra and the build quality and interior is in a completely different league. I have owned a few performance cars in the past, including my most recent WRX which I modded up to about 300 hp. The GTO stock just feels more powerful and is shockingly fast over 100 mph. I guess what I'm saying is you should test drive the car before you make any decisions, you may be pleasantly surprised.


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## Clevite 77 (Dec 21, 2004)

newagegoat said:


> What do you consider easily walking a GTO? I just ran a 13.40 @ 104 with 700 miles on the car on a 80 degree day which leads me to beleive that once the car is broke in and on a cooler day will possible run 13.00. This was a bone stock 2005 auto. Your going to have to do more than mod the hell out of your Buick to easily walk a 05 GTO. I've seen fully modded 04 GTP's and I'm not just talking a pulley change run in the low 13's, so unless you have some magic trick up your sleave when it comes to the 3800 motors I don't see you walking anything?


What I consider walking a GTO is, when a vehicle is faster, here are a few guys with Regal's and an Impala, all 3800 S/C motors. I didn't intend to start a flame war, I wanted reassurance that this 400hp is something to brag about. I thought the GTO was a waste with an LS1 (sorry guys just my opinion) nothing special about looks, decent power (stock) looking more for a SS/WS6/mustang sporty looks, 8" wheels (where as the SS/WS6 had 9" wheels). Then I find out about the LS2, I was geeked, but when a stock 2002 SS will hang with the GTO, this disappoints me, 1) it's got "400hp" 2) it's new, and yet the improvement is minimal if any in the power category.

Anyways, I'm still considering the GTO VERY much, as long as the deal is right, I was just hoping for higher numbers.

Oh and here are some websites to check out, 
http://www.geocities.com/raflyer/car.html (this guy is now in the 11's)
http://www.cardomain.com/id/jasonsgs (look to the left for 1/4 mile times)
http://www.cardomain.com/id/bigdaddygs

here are just a hand full of people who are into the 11-12's with bolt-ons, back yard sh!t, be carful what 3800 you bump into, most are nothing, Mine is stock, but the potential with a factory forced induction car is plentiful. 

Again, I'm not here to start a war, I've been lurking for some time.


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## StocktonRaider (Mar 11, 2005)

Don't kid yourself Klevette, you're not going to buy the new GTO, why would you when you have a Classy/Elegant front wheel drive car like the Buick!!

you should think about turboing a civic!!!maybe a 92 or 93


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## Clevite 77 (Dec 21, 2004)

There's always a comedian.


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## westell (Oct 4, 2004)

My 02 SS Camaro only mods at dyno time were K&N filter & Clear MTI Lid

316.7 rwhp divide by .88 = 360 at the fly 80.1 degrees

MTI's dynojet Model 248C

Had to pull out my file for those. Too many dead brain cells


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

Clevite 77 said:


> Seriously concidering a GTO, I'm quite dissapointed. The LS1 F-bodies were rated at 325hp (talking SS/WS6) at the flywheel. They were dynoing at 300hp at the wheels.
> 
> I thought power would be a little more, but 400 - 15%, is what ya get.


LS1 F-bodies at 325 at the flywheel and 300 at the wheels :confused . That's less than 8% loss through the drivetrain. Hard to believe.

I've mostly seen 15-17% loss for manuals and 20-22% loss for autos so the dyno results of 332-340 for manual and 312-320 is pretty close. I might be wrong but that's what I've seen.


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## 84racebird (Jan 4, 2005)

The F-bodies were under rated. I don't think there is a difference between the LS1 in a '01 or '02 F-body and the '04 GTO. The intake and heads are the same and the cam doesn't sound any more aggressive. Obviously the exhaust is different, but not much. Plus the F-bodies were solid rear axle which is more efficient. 

I have an '02 Firehawk with similar miles to my GTO and both are 6 speeds. Based on feel, the Firehawk is faster. I'm not complaining though. The GTO as equipped from the factory is going to do really well with some aftermarket bolt-ons.

Does the width of the wheels really matter? What are the new Mustangs dynoing at?


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

My 2002 Z28 with a lid and a Corsa cat-back dyno'ed at 335. Stock was 318. At the flywheel it was rated at 310. I guess I had a powertrain gain or GM underated these cars. 
As far as the W body goes, I've seen some with suspension mods, pulley, ETC... and slicks get into the 12's, but they are not very streetable. Mostly with liveable power adders your going to be high 13's with traction issues. My GTO ran 12.86 at 109 mph bone stock. I also beat a Cobra that was also bone stock by a tenth. No drag radials, no mods. I'm thinking once I put my mind to it low twelves are going to be a liveable daily driver goal. 
Your Website W-body cars that you talk about, well I can come up with some 9 second and low 10 second GTO's if you want. Everyone here knows that is more than 98.5% of us will do. 
The Mustang Shebly 500 is going to be low to mid 40's, plus dealer markup. I bet most of those sell for 50k. Even at 45k I can put a Supercharger on mine and have some change to add traction. Bang for the buck I'll beat you. Now next year when they put rebates on the base Stang GT, and you can get one for close to invoice, that'll be your bang for the buck car. But, it'll still not have the class of the GTO, or in my opinion your W-body.


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## Braman'sGTO (Mar 14, 2005)

All I know is that if the LS2 reacts anything like the LS1 it may very well be possible to get 400 to the wheel with just Intake, tune and exhaust. Even if it falls short of 400 it will still be damn close. The 05 had so many kinks and bends in the exhaust I would not be supprised if you can pick up 30HP on just a cat back. Im sitting at about 330, LT's and high flow cats add 20 hp, cat back add 20 - 30 hp, I have seen the right intake and tune ad 35 -40 hp. Do the math and that put's me damn close to 400 at the wheels. 

This whole game all depends on what type of racing you want to do, im not big on drag anymore, I want to get on a road course and put a few M3's to shame. There is no question that the GTO can kill a Mustang when it comes to long fast runs, the GTO has a Drag coefficient of .31cd which is the same as a C5 vette, Damn good aerodynamics the A4 has a top speed of 158 mph and the M6 has a top of 180 mph. The Mustang has the Drag coefficient of a brick and is aerodynamicaly limited to the 140's. The GTO was never built to compete against the Mustang but was built to run the M3, the Muuuuustang was never evena consideration.


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## Clevite 77 (Dec 21, 2004)

Thanks Bramans'sGTO, I appreciate your input,
I guess since we're way off topic (sorry guys) how does he GTO do on long trips? I would also be using this as a daily driver, and I work 34 miles away 28 of which is freeway




Braman'sGTO said:


> This whole game all depends on what type of racing you want to do,


Maybe a little track racing, might be where, the idiot next to me lane cuts off and he's tying to get over, I want something that will be a little quicker. I like to go down an empty road and get up to 50-80 type of thing.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Clevite 77 said:


> Thanks Bramans'sGTO, I appreciate your input,
> I guess since we're way off topic (sorry guys) how does he GTO do on long trips? I would also be using this as a daily driver, and I work 34 miles away 28 of which is freeway
> 
> 
> ...


Mine seems to like the dragstrip, but coming from a Corvette Z06, I'm not so sure about the roadracing part without some suspension work. I think that would take away some of the comfort level too.

I went to southern Fl with it and it was great. just about perfect seats. Ask Groucho about the commute part. He has a 100 mile each way with LA traffic and a 4500' mountain pass to go over.


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## Redroadracer (Apr 28, 2005)

Clevite 77 said:


> Seriously concidering a GTO, I'm quite dissapointed. The LS1 F-bodies were rated at 325hp (talking SS/WS6) at the flywheel. They were dynoing at 300hp at the wheels.
> 
> If all they have is 320-340hp at the wheels, I may have to consider something different. Hell I can mod my 2001 Regal GS (sister to the GTP) and easily walk a GTO. I'm also considering the Mustang GT 500, this will have the 5.4L S/C just like the lightning/Ford GT and will have 450hp, and 450lbs of tq, as you know the 03-04 cobra's only had 390 hp, but with the factory S/C, it's easy to get 450-500 at the rear wheels.
> 
> ...


 I have owned over 15 LS1 cars and they will not dyno 300hp at the rear wheels, bone stock anywhere at anytime. They are around 270hp at the rear tires. You can take your flywheel hp and divide it by 1.2
That will get you very close on a 6 speed car due to mechanical loss. I dyno'd my 05 GTO (6 speed) yesterday after driving it for 30 miles on a 85 degree day. I pulled it right on the Dyno Jet and did 3 pulls. I had 342 rwhp and 338hp. 400 divided by 1.2 is 333hp. I have an exhaust system and nothing else. Bone stock the 05 GTO should be somewhere around 330rwhp. The car has 1,700 miles on it. The air / fuel setting from the factory is very rich. It was 12.2 at 3,500 rpm and 11 at 6,200. When LS2 tuning is readily available/ this dog is gonna hunt! Once we can achieve about 13 across the board, it is gonna be really good times for all!


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## Redroadracer (Apr 28, 2005)

Clevite 77 said:


> What I consider walking a GTO is, when a vehicle is faster, here are a few guys with Regal's and an Impala, all 3800 S/C motors. I didn't intend to start a flame war, I wanted reassurance that this 400hp is something to brag about. I thought the GTO was a waste with an LS1 (sorry guys just my opinion) nothing special about looks, decent power (stock) looking more for a SS/WS6/mustang sporty looks, 8" wheels (where as the SS/WS6 had 9" wheels). Then I find out about the LS2, I was geeked, but when a stock 2002 SS will hang with the GTO, this disappoints me, 1) it's got "400hp" 2) it's new, and yet the improvement is minimal if any in the power category.
> 
> Anyways, I'm still considering the GTO VERY much, as long as the deal is right, I was just hoping for higher numbers.
> 
> ...



I looked at the sites that you recommended. All I can say is the Impala and Regal may be quick but they are still family sleds that are front wheel drive and not remotely cool looking. Also every dime you spend on one might as well be thrown in the trash. No one gives a crap about a modified front wheel drive Impala or Regal. If you are considering V6 Forced induction cars, get a 87 Grand National or 89 Trans Am Turbo. Very cool looking, run like all hell, plentiful, cheap and tons of goodies.


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## Clevite 77 (Dec 21, 2004)

Thanks again for the info, 

The 300 at the rear wheels, was out of a magazine, I wanna say motor trend, but you would know if anyone, so I'll take your word for it. Now if you're comparing body lines, sorry I don't think you can brag a whole lot about the GTO. It does look very good, but the looks aren't going to turn a lot of heads. You are right about a modified fwd car, but I'll tell you what, it's a big upset when a family sedan blows your doors off (talking about simple cars like a older 4.6L stang, old 305 camaro, and modded up can really overcome a lot of cars). I'm not here to compare, and I didn't mean to hijack this thread, just trying to get some unbias replys on people who are actually driving these cars, because I want a rwd V8 with a manual trans perferably a 6 spd. must be a GM or Mopar. Mopar has nothing and so the GTO is next in line. I like the looks, but not hanging posters of them. But I can deal with that as long as the comfort is there, the performance is there, and most important, it's reliable.

Thanks again for everyone's input, my wife and I are getting our sh!t figured out (we just leasted a new durango limited, just got married, and just bought a greater swiss mountain dog pup, we wanna see where we stand, then I'll start looking into them more seriously)


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Redroadracer said:


> I have owned over 15 LS1 cars and they will not dyno 300hp at the rear wheels, bone stock anywhere at anytime. They are around 270hp at the rear tires. You can take your flywheel hp and divide it by 1.2
> That will get you very close on a 6 speed car due to mechanical loss. I dyno'd my 05 GTO (6 speed) yesterday after driving it for 30 miles on a 85 degree day. I pulled it right on the Dyno Jet and did 3 pulls. I had 342 rwhp and 338hp. 400 divided by 1.2 is 333hp. I have an exhaust system and nothing else. Bone stock the 05 GTO should be somewhere around 330rwhp. The car has 1,700 miles on it. The air / fuel setting from the factory is very rich. It was 12.2 at 3,500 rpm and 11 at 6,200. When LS2 tuning is readily available/ this dog is gonna hunt! Once we can achieve about 13 across the board, it is gonna be really good times for all!


I said it before and here it goes again. GM underated the F-Body LS1. The car had more hp than it was rated at. LT1 cars Dynoed at 255- 270 at the rear wheels, but the LS1's were high 290's in 98- 2000 cars and then in 01 they switched to LS6 intakes and gained 15hp. In 2002 they produced some LS1's with the LS6 block that was stiffer and had better breathing through bigger ports between the cylinders allowing less pumping losses. Those cars in some cases have dynoed in the 320-330 range at the wheels. Mine, a very late 02' Z28 dynoed 318 bone stock at 4000 miles and 335 with 6000 miles and a cat-back and lid.

That said this car is a in a different ball game than the F-body. A salesman came in today with his new Mercedes CLK320. Nice car. We started comparing the two cars side by side. The CLK is harder to get into the back than the GTO and the back is not as nice. The GTO has nicer seats. The Merc has an awesome dash and interior ambiance. The sound system is much better in the Merc and it had a Nav system. The Merc was quieter, but did not ride any better and was way down on the power. All in all, I could see a $5,000 difference, but not $20,000.


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

fergyflyer said:


> I said it before and here it goes again. GM underated the F-Body LS1. The car had more hp than it was rated at. LT1 cars Dynoed at 255- 270 at the rear wheels, but the LS1's were high 290's in 98- 2000 cars and then in 01 they switched to LS6 intakes and gained 15hp. In 2002 they produced some LS1's with the LS6 block that was stiffer and had better breathing through bigger ports between the cylinders allowing less pumping losses. Those cars in some cases have dynoed in the 320-330 range at the wheels. Mine, a very late 02' Z28 dynoed 318 bone stock at 4000 miles and 335 with 6000 miles and a cat-back and lid.
> 
> That said this car is a in a different ball game than the F-body. A salesman came in today with his new Mercedes CLK320. Nice car. We started comparing the two cars side by side. The CLK is harder to get into the back than the GTO and the back is not as nice. The GTO has nicer seats. The Merc has an awesome dash and interior ambiance. The sound system is much better in the Merc and it had a Nav system. The Merc was quieter, but did not ride any better and was way down on the power. All in all, I could see a $5,000 difference, but not $20,000.


Why do you think GM would intentionally underrate the horsepower of a modern day engine? I know it's not due to insurance costs or fuel efficiency. Back in the 70s I know those were the reasons for underrating engines. And why would they underrate the F-body LS1 and not the Corvette's LS1? I had an intake, headers, 160 thermostat, Hypertech Power Programmer 2, Corsa Daytona Catback system, throttle body bypass and a few other small mods that probably didn't make too much of a difference on my '98 Vette and I dynoed at 300 hp/300 lb. ft. of torque at the rear wheels. Most stock hp dyno results posted on The Corvette Forum averaged around 270-275. So gaining 25-30 hp with the above mods seemed reasonable. I know that all (same) engines aren't going to produce the _exact_ same horsepower but for all or even most F-body LS1s being underrated is hard to believe. Maybe it's true... maybe it's not, but the importance of my post is the first question.


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## Clevite 77 (Dec 21, 2004)

it's easier to underrate the car a little and have a happy customer in the end, then over rate the car and have a dissapointed customer.

When you have a 2002 camaro running low 13's with "325" hp (at the motor) and you have a 400hp GTO running the same low 13's, some get dissapointed.


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

Clevite 77 said:


> it's easier to underrate the car a little and have a happy customer in the end, then over rate the car and have a dissapointed customer.
> 
> When you have a 2002 camaro running low 13's with "325" hp (at the motor) and you have a 400hp GTO running the same low 13's, some get dissapointed.


Well you still have to consider weight, IRS versus solid rear axle and last but not least ...driver. But a lot of us did not buy the car for achieving low ETs. I bought mine because of the low production numbers, build and ride quality, and rear seats that you can actually use. My '98 Vette was running consistent 13.2s at 107 on the original run flats. But I gave that up for the goat. But hey... we all buy cars for different reason.

Also I was at California Dragway a couple of weekends ago and I spoke with several guys who came down in there '99 to '02 Camaro and most of them were stock and running high 13s to low 14s. One guy ran 13.4 with his auto '99 Z28 but he had quite a few mods on his. The best he had ever done was 12.86 and that was with 4.11s. I think he said he reinstalled the original 3.23s or 3.73s (can't remember) when he ran 13.4.

Hopefully the unimpressive ETs that you're expecting from the goat won't discourage you to owning a nice car like the goat :cheers


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## Redroadracer (Apr 28, 2005)

Clevite 77 said:


> it's easier to underrate the car a little and have a happy customer in the end, then over rate the car and have a dissapointed customer.
> 
> When you have a 2002 camaro running low 13's with "325" hp (at the motor) and you have a 400hp GTO running the same low 13's, some get dissapointed.


Keep in mind that 3800 lbs with a driver and IRS makes a difference. 300 lbs doesn't seem like much but when you are getting a car moving from a dead stop, it is a noticable amount. I have a 2001 Formula Firebird that I Road Race in Touring 2. It has a K & N on a fresh 2004 Crate LS1, the SLP loudmouth cat back, large diameter Y pipe and the best PCM tuning that GM racing can provide. That is what we are allowed in that class. I have 332 rw hp and 348 torque on a Dyno Jet. With no goodies it was 280hp. Most 04 Z06's I see going thru are reading at the 330 to 340 hp at the rear wheel. I promise you, when the same goodies are available for the 6.0 GTO, life will be really good. The cars are set to run so rich under hard throttle that it is not even funny. Lean her out to 13.1 and the magic will start happening. The LS2 will be very responsive to tuning. Once you drive a 6.0 you don't really give a crap what it looks like. Although mine has really started to grow on me. Now that it too is a race car, it really looks tough. Does anyone know how to post a photo on this site? At least in the wind tunnel the GTO is very slippery!


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## Redroadracer (Apr 28, 2005)

Clevite 77 said:


> Thanks again for the info,
> 
> The 300 at the rear wheels, was out of a magazine, I wanna say motor trend, but you would know if anyone, so I'll take your word for it. Now if you're comparing body lines, sorry I don't think you can brag a whole lot about the GTO. It does look very good, but the looks aren't going to turn a lot of heads. You are right about a modified fwd car, but I'll tell you what, it's a big upset when a family sedan blows your doors off (talking about simple cars like a older 4.6L stang, old 305 camaro, and modded up can really overcome a lot of cars). I'm not here to compare, and I didn't mean to hijack this thread, just trying to get some unbias replys on people who are actually driving these cars, because I want a rwd V8 with a manual trans perferably a 6 spd. must be a GM or Mopar. Mopar has nothing and so the GTO is next in line. I like the looks, but not hanging posters of them. But I can deal with that as long as the comfort is there, the performance is there, and most important, it's reliable.
> 
> Thanks again for everyone's input, my wife and I are getting our sh!t figured out (we just leasted a new durango limited, just got married, and just bought a greater swiss mountain dog pup, we wanna see where we stand, then I'll start looking into them more seriously)


Here is the problem of the body lines on the GTO the way I see it. For example: I collect and sell muscle cars. I have owned several hundred 69 Camaros. A 2002 Camaro looked nothing like a 69............and I mean nothing like it. The difference between it and the GTO is that the Camaro "evolved". If the Camaro had stopped production in the early 70's and came back with the 02 body style right now.......everyone would piss and moan about them. That is the problem. The GTO took a 30+ year break and did not allow customers to get used to slight changes over the years. I have owned and driven every car you can imagine on and off the track. I can tell you that the GTO's are one of the best built, quality, powerful, comfortable cars I have seen to date........plus have you looked at the window sticker? The bang for the buck is incredible. I heard some bad news today that GM might be dropping the entire GTO platform due to their financial troubles. If that is true.......hang on to your rides because they will be bringing good money in the future.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

6QTS11OZ said:


> Why do you think GM would intentionally underrate the horsepower of a modern day engine? I know it's not due to insurance costs or fuel efficiency. Back in the 70s I know those were the reasons for underrating engines. And why would they underrate the F-body LS1 and not the Corvette's LS1? I had an intake, headers, 160 thermostat, Hypertech Power Programmer 2, Corsa Daytona Catback system, throttle body bypass and a few other small mods that probably didn't make too much of a difference on my '98 Vette and I dynoed at 300 hp/300 lb. ft. of torque at the rear wheels. Most stock hp dyno results posted on The Corvette Forum averaged around 270-275. So gaining 25-30 hp with the above mods seemed reasonable. I know that all (same) engines aren't going to produce the _exact_ same horsepower but for all or even most F-body LS1s being underrated is hard to believe. Maybe it's true... maybe it's not, but the importance of my post is the first question.


Real simple answer to this question. Corvette= $$$$$ You can't justify selling a $50,000 sports car with 350 hp beside a $23,000 sports car with the only differences being status and handling. The Corvette also was not very efficient at getting power to the ground, due to a poor flowing exhaust, a bad intake and the IRS. F-Bodies dyno higher than Corvettes. Also as was mentioned before, GM is conservative about horsepower ratings. They do not want the issues Ford, Mazda, and Hyundai have had. So you take an engine that makes 360hp and rate it at 350, and 310 in the lesser car. 
One of the largest complaints GM got about the Corvette in 93, when the Gen 4 F-body came out was that there was not enough horsepower difference between them. 
Question for you, why would the exact same engine make 40 or 50 hp more in the Corvette. Some ideas I've heard are that GM did not recomend premium in the F-body, and that the power difference is about 10%. I can buy that, but you still have similar peak horsepower with the same fuel. Corvettes usually dyno 280-295 pre 2001 and 300-315 2001 and up. F-bodies are usually good for 10 more hp due to a more efficient driveline, exhaust and intake. 
A stock LS1 F-body runs 13.5-14.1 depending on the transmission and the gears. GM High Tech Performance clocked a 12.9 in a 02' SS with 13,000 miles and a dirty paper air filter, on a 80+ degree day. Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords was at Englishtown the same day with a Bullitt. Everybody ignored the SS for the Bullitt, till the F-bod beat it by a full second and about 8mph. 
I have owned F-bods, Corvettes and now a GTO. The best my lightly modded Z28 did was 13.0 at 109, my stock GTO LS2 runs just about equal to it even though it weighs almost 400 lbs more.(I've weighed both on scales). As a drag car the Fbody is hard to beat, unless you open up the exhaust (straight through pipes) and the intake, and lighten a Corvette.


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

fergyflyer said:


> Question for you, why would the exact same engine make 40 or 50 hp more in the Corvette.


Maybe a different cam, exhaust manifold, intake set up, factory computer setting.

But overall you're explanation does make sense :cheers


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## gameover (May 13, 2005)

I don't know where all these people get off in saying these cars don't turn heads!! :confused I can't go anywhere and stop and someone not come up to me and ask about my GTO. Even when I have it outside in my driveway I've had a couple of people stop to check it out. I've owned all kinds of vehicles, Camaros, 1 vette, a tricked out S-10 w/ NOS etc. and I've never had responses like I get from the goat. :cheers
And Redroadracer said it best in reply# 30!! 
Redroadracer :cheers


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## Redroadracer (Apr 28, 2005)

gameover said:


> I don't know where all these people get off in saying these cars don't turn heads!! :confused I can't go anywhere and stop and someone not come up to me and ask about my GTO. Even when I have it outside in my driveway I've had a couple of people stop to check it out. I've owned all kinds of vehicles, Camaros, 1 vette, a tricked out S-10 w/ NOS etc. and I've never had responses like I get from the goat. :cheers
> And Redroadracer said it best in reply# 30!!
> Redroadracer :cheers


Thanks Gameover! I don't see how anyone can argue what I said.......It is simply the truth. I think the people that knock the car have not driven or ridden in one nor have the looked at the lines and the quality of the body and interior. I had a dozen or so friends that had been tearing the car a new a$$. When I got mine, they came over and looked at it in person. Every single one of them loved it. Then they got a ride. The car is just plain fun!!  Does the grill look like a Grand Am or Grand Prix.........? Yes! Do I personally like that part......? No! I can find something about every car that I don't like. I would suggest for those that can't live with the grill to purchase a Monaro front bumper cover.


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## Braman'sGTO (Mar 14, 2005)

gameover said:


> I don't know where all these people get off in saying these cars don't turn heads!! :confused I can't go anywhere and stop and someone not come up to me and ask about my GTO. Even when I have it outside in my driveway I've had a couple of people stop to check it out. I've owned all kinds of vehicles, Camaros, 1 vette, a tricked out S-10 w/ NOS etc. and I've never had responses like I get from the goat. :cheers
> And Redroadracer said it best in reply# 30!!
> Redroadracer :cheers



:agree Totaly, I work part time at a UPS store and atleast 2 days a week when I get off people are out at my car looking at it. Every dealership that I go to people come over and look at the car. People love it even more when they see the Simpson car seat in the back and they ask me how hard it is to get my 2 year old little girl in and out of the back. I get her in and out several times a day and I dont have any problems, so i dont see what the big complaint is about rear seat access.


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## mumrah (Apr 3, 2005)

*Car seats in back rule*

I love the fact that in the carseat my son doesn't kick the seat in front of him. Every other car I have including a 2003 durango and a 94 olds wagon, his feet are right up against the front seats. As far as looks go, I watched a teenager in the Mustang GT convert nearly jump out of the passanger seat turning around to see my GTO. This car may not draw attention form cops looking for hot rods but it is a beautiful machine that any car nut wants a closer look at for its clean lines and top quality build (not to mention 6.0 on the back).


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

I went from a Corvette Z06 to this. The car is so much better in person than in pictures. I still have not seen another one on the road in 1 month and 5 days. I see 3 Vettes a day. At lunch today 3 different people walked in and said who owns that GTO out there? Then they told me nice car. Every once and a while that happened with the Vette, never with any Mustangs or Camaro's that I have owned. 
Another thing is when you wax it, you get to notice all the little subtle details the car has, then those stand out next time you look at it. Unlike the Mustang, which uses retro to look good, this thing uses an understated style with lots of class to look good. 
I still love this car and it still makes me smile to look at it.


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## patrun64 (Apr 23, 2005)

*Like a parent*

You guys sound like parents with kids that are never going to be homecoming queens or heart-throbs. I never really liked the GTO much until I sat in one. I do get a few looks and questions about the car, but fewer than other cars I have owned. In 6 weeks of ownership I have only seen 2 other in my area. 

My wife thinks the GTO is just downright plain and ordinary. Granted, she has a '69 red convertible Chevy which is a real headturner.

The GTO is a car-guy's car, not a homecoming queen.


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## StocktonRaider (Mar 11, 2005)

wrong patrun, the GTO is a MAN's car!!! :cool


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## triumph66 (Jun 2, 2005)

Clevite 77 said:


> It weighs a ton


Don't you mean two tons?  

Seriously though, these incentives have my eyeing the GTO. I just wish they had kept the car in fbody weight range because that would make my decision much easier.

Are there many weight savings modifications that can be done to the goat?


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## westell (Oct 4, 2004)

drove an fbody for 12 years, 2 - 4th gen's, last one 02 SS Camaro.

have you driven a GTO yet. There is no comparision to the ride or overall quality. Much, Much smoother, refined, quiet, more stable over 100 mph. there's over 100 lbs of sound deadening material you can strip out and other's... depends what you want to do with it.

I would let a few hundred pounds keep you out of one. :cheers


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## triumph66 (Jun 2, 2005)

Redroadracer said:


> I have owned over 15 LS1 cars and they will not dyno 300hp at the rear wheels, bone stock anywhere at anytime. They are around 270hp at the rear tires. You can take your flywheel hp and divide it by 1.2
> That will get you very close on a 6 speed car due to mechanical loss. I dyno'd my 05 GTO (6 speed) yesterday after driving it for 30 miles on a 85 degree day. I pulled it right on the Dyno Jet and did 3 pulls. I had 342 rwhp and 338hp. 400 divided by 1.2 is 333hp. I have an exhaust system and nothing else. Bone stock the 05 GTO should be somewhere around 330rwhp. The car has 1,700 miles on it. The air / fuel setting from the factory is very rich. It was 12.2 at 3,500 rpm and 11 at 6,200. When LS2 tuning is readily available/ this dog is gonna hunt! Once we can achieve about 13 across the board, it is gonna be really good times for all!


Then one of those 15 must not have been an 01+ LS1 with the LS6 intake manifold.

I had a 2002 Z28 for a little over a year that had a baseline dyno of 308rwhp and 312rwtq which shot up to 329rwhp and 335rwtq with a Direct-Flo lid and Corsa exhaust.

Go over to LS1tech.com and make the statement that LS1's do not dyno 300+ rwhp and see how many smilies get thrown your way. I thought it was pretty much common knowledge by now that this happens with regularity.


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## triumph66 (Jun 2, 2005)

westell said:


> drove an fbody for 12 years, 2 - 4th gen's, last one 02 SS Camaro.
> 
> have you driven a GTO yet. There is no comparision to the ride or overall quality. Much, Much smoother, refined, quiet, more stable over 100 mph. there's over 100 lbs of sound deadening material you can strip out and other's... depends what you want to do with it.
> 
> I would let a few hundred pounds keep you out of one. :cheers


Thanks for the reply Westell; I'm up in Spring by the way. 

Regarding your question no I have not driven one yet but it's now officially on my short list of things to do. I've checked out GMbuypower looking over inventory to try and find a Black/Red and they seem pretty scarce. I probably wouldn't be able to bargain as much on that combo as I would a black/black.

Do you have any suggestions for a good dealership in Houston? The last GM car I owned was an 02 Z28 that I purchased in Bastrop from Covert. I was thinking about Beck and Masten or Wiesner. Have you heard any negatives about them?


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## Braman'sGTO (Mar 14, 2005)

04 A4 GTO with STS interculed turbo, with stock injectors dynoed 315rwhp, boost after cooler was 2.5psi, injectors were at 90% duty cycle. New injectors were installed(will get size and post) and ran 85% duty cycle with boost increased 7.5psi after cooler and dynoed 390rwhp.


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## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

Braman'sGTO said:


> 04 A4 GTO with STS interculed turbo, with stock injectors dynoed 315rwhp, boost after cooler was 2.5psi, injectors were at 90% duty cycle. New injectors were installed(will get size and post) and ran 85% duty cycle with boost increased 7.5psi after cooler and dynoed 390rwhp.


I'm confused, I'm a STS dealer and have seen these cars with 4-5 lbs of boost on a stock car with a tune and injectors eclipse the 400 rwhp mark consistently......... what do you speak of? :cheers


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## tump (Jun 2, 2005)

Redroadracer said:


> I have owned over 15 LS1 cars and they will not dyno 300hp at the rear wheels, bone stock anywhere at anytime. They are around 270hp at the rear tires. You can take your flywheel hp and divide it by 1.2
> That will get you very close on a 6 speed car due to mechanical loss. I dyno'd my 05 GTO (6 speed) yesterday after driving it for 30 miles on a 85 degree day. I pulled it right on the Dyno Jet and did 3 pulls. I had 342 rwhp and 338hp. 400 divided by 1.2 is 333hp. I have an exhaust system and nothing else. Bone stock the 05 GTO should be somewhere around 330rwhp. The car has 1,700 miles on it. The air / fuel setting from the factory is very rich. It was 12.2 at 3,500 rpm and 11 at 6,200. When LS2 tuning is readily available/ this dog is gonna hunt! Once we can achieve about 13 across the board, it is gonna be really good times for all!


Why would anyone have 15 of the same car...?? My Bone stock 1998 LS1 AUTOMATIC made 297 horse power and 316Fp tq...I have Seen 2002 LS1s dyno 320 rear wheel mine made 434 rear wheel with exhaust /heads and a cam change.


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## Redroadracer (Apr 28, 2005)

triumph66 said:


> Don't you mean two tons?
> 
> Seriously though, these incentives have my eyeing the GTO. I just wish they had kept the car in fbody weight range because that would make my decision much easier.
> 
> Are there many weight savings modifications that can be done to the goat?



The stock wheels weigh a ton, the front seats are 60 lbs + and the spare/ jack is quite heavy as well. Empty the trunk, put in a good aftermarket racing seat and lose the factory wheels, then you are getting in the zone.


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## Redroadracer (Apr 28, 2005)

tump said:


> Why would anyone have 15 of the same car...?? My Bone stock 1998 LS1 AUTOMATIC made 297 horse power and 316Fp tq...I have Seen 2002 LS1s dyno 320 rear wheel mine made 434 rear wheel with exhaust /heads and a cam change.


I collect cars....both old muscle and new. I like them. That is why 15. They were all different ie: colors, options, coupes, convertibles, 1 LE's etc. I find these "BONE" stock hp numbers being listed, remarkable. Bone stock means off the showroom floor....no exhaust, no lids, no computer work, nothing. It is amazing how myself and the other F body guys that road race these cars all over the country can only accomplish 325 to 335 rwhp with the best computer tuning "GM" can offer and tuned exhaust systems as well as K&N's. Stock C5 Z06's (rated at 405) are dyno-ing at around 350 and new 400hp GTOs are around 330 to 335. 342 with an open exhaust on the 400hp GTO. So I guess I am to believe that the 2002 LS1 rated at 325 only loses 5hp in the drive train to the tires. Not likely! Are we using Dyno Jet's or Mustang dyno's here??? The super fast T1 road racing Z06's are doing 375 rwhp with (once again) the best tuning that GM's race division has to offer, exhaust and K&N filter. Tell me more about 320 showroom stock rwhp.


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## Braman'sGTO (Mar 14, 2005)

GTODEALER said:


> I'm confused, I'm a STS dealer and have seen these cars with 4-5 lbs of boost on a stock car with a tune and injectors eclipse the 400 rwhp mark consistently......... what do you speak of? :cheers


This was an STS rear mount turbo, SAE corrected numbers and it was run on a Dyno Dynamics dyno. I will get a write up of everything they did on the install and post it so there is no confusion.


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## GTOJon (Jan 25, 2005)

Just curious, but isn't there a way to determine (mathematically) how much hp a car has by taking, for example, 0-60 times and 1/4 mile times and factoring in the cars weight?


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## Braman'sGTO (Mar 14, 2005)

GTOJon said:


> Just curious, but isn't there a way to determine (mathematically) how much hp a car has by taking, for example, 0-60 times and 1/4 mile times and factoring in the cars weight?


I think there is, when I was hanging out with a bunch of hard core drag racers someone explained something like that to me but I dont know exacty how it goes. I do remember that it only gives you a ball park figure.


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## WS6GTO (Jun 4, 2005)

Braman'sGTO said:


> I think there is, when I was hanging out with a bunch of hard core drag racers someone explained something like that to me but I dont know exacty how it goes. I do remember that it only gives you a ball park figure.


This is NOT peak horsepower, it is Average horsepower but it's the only calculation I have for it. 
(Weight of car in lbs.)/1320 * ((MPH through trap)/25.3)^3 
Programmed it in my calculator from my Calculus notes. It's interesting but that's about it.


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## JTYLER1604 (Jun 3, 2005)

Generally speaking, I get a moderate number of looks in my car, more when i get hard on the gas obviously. But I am a firm believer than unless a person is really up on cars, they are completely clueless as to what a fine vehicle the GTO is. 

Funny story at work I was reminded of reading these posts - I had my car parked next to a 2003ish Vette. As I walked out to my car this morning, a late 60's era impala ss parked next to me. I was asking him about his car. He's like "It's fast, but no where near the same league as that" referring to the Vette. I don't think he even knew what kind of car I was about to get into. My face went blank for a minute and as he walked away, I couldn't help but laugh, thinking "What a dumbazz" LOL

I can't wait to race that Vette I was parked next to.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

GTOJon said:


> Just curious, but isn't there a way to determine (mathematically) how much hp a car has by taking, for example, 0-60 times and 1/4 mile times and factoring in the cars weight?


Go to www.modulardepot.com it's a Mustang website. Click on resources. There is a hp calculator and a sea level trap speed/time calculator for guys at elevation. You need to know your altitude (it has a link to find your track's altitude) and temp/ humidity (weather.com). 

As an aside it is scarry to see what they can do with the 03-04 Cobra's and a pulley and chip OH MY. Know your competition!!!!!!


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

JTYLER1604 said:


> Generally speaking, I get a moderate number of looks in my car, more when i get hard on the gas obviously. But I am a firm believer than unless a person is really up on cars, they are completely clueless as to what a fine vehicle the GTO is.
> 
> Funny story at work I was reminded of reading these posts - I had my car parked next to a 2003ish Vette. As I walked out to my car this morning, a late 60's era impala ss parked next to me. I was asking him about his car. He's like "It's fast, but no where near the same league as that" referring to the Vette. I don't think he even knew what kind of car I was about to get into. My face went blank for a minute and as he walked away, I couldn't help but laugh, thinking "What a dumbazz" LOL
> 
> I can't wait to race that Vette I was parked next to.


I was cruising on 441 here and came across a C5 coupe. The guy was driving a little faster than the rest of traffic, so I figured ok here goes. 5 lights in a row, 1 with no one else around and he would'nt run me. It didn't matter how much I egged him on he just drove it like a grandmother. Oh well. Get the C5, just don't mess with the Z06, that one's hot.


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## tump (Jun 2, 2005)

Redroadracer said:


> I collect cars....both old muscle and new. I like them. That is why 15. They were all different ie: colors, options, coupes, convertibles, 1 LE's etc. I find these "BONE" stock hp numbers being listed, remarkable. Bone stock means off the showroom floor....no exhaust, no lids, no computer work, nothing. It is amazing how myself and the other F body guys that road race these cars all over the country can only accomplish 325 to 335 rwhp with the best computer tuning "GM" can offer and tuned exhaust systems as well as K&N's. Stock C5 Z06's (rated at 405) are dyno-ing at around 350 and new 400hp GTOs are around 330 to 335. 342 with an open exhaust on the 400hp GTO. So I guess I am to believe that the 2002 LS1 rated at 325 only loses 5hp in the drive train to the tires. Not likely! Are we using Dyno Jet's or Mustang dyno's here??? The super fast T1 road racing Z06's are doing 375 rwhp with (once again) the best tuning that GM's race division has to offer, exhaust and K&N filter. Tell me more about 320 showroom stock rwhp.


The Stated rear wheel HP of the LS1 was low, the 2002 flowed more air and made some sick power. A Friend owns a local performance shop with a Dyno..I have seen dozens of LS1's dyno and allmost allway's they are over 300. Its a Fact http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307931&highlight=stock+2002


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## tump (Jun 2, 2005)

Here is More PROOF what kinka power the 4th Gen Gm small block can do Stock "paper filter" not 270 rear wheel...its a fact...If you guys are trying to get power by "tuning" a stock car with only exhaust you should save some money and wait till you can replace the mild factory bumpstick. A cam only LS1 can produce 400 RWHP, also true.... http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208076&highlight=2002+stock


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## Braman'sGTO (Mar 14, 2005)

GTODEALER said:


> I'm confused, I'm a STS dealer and have seen these cars with 4-5 lbs of boost on a stock car with a tune and injectors eclipse the 400 rwhp mark consistently......... what do you speak of? :cheers


OK I have somemore answers, first the injectors they put in were 42lbs injectors and they said that the max they could run was 12 degrees of timeing. Now here is some new info to explain the LOW numbers,

" THE OWNER IS A DUMB ASS"

this guy owned a f-body with LS1 in it prior to the GTO and alwayse ran 93 octane, the only thing he has ever put in the GTO is 87. YES 87 octane, even after adding the turbo, can we all say it together " DUMB ASS" he has had the car back less than a week and it is back at the shop that put the turbo on with the engine nocking, after much heated descussion he finaly admitted to only running 87, again " D... A..". He has lost compression in atleast 1 cylinder and is having the entire turbo system taken off and returned to stock form so that he can take it to the dealership and try to have it fixed under warrenty, All I can say is I hope the look at him and laugh. I realy wish that is was illegal for people that stuped to won a car like the GTO


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## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

Braman'sGTO said:


> OK I have somemore answers, first the injectors they put in were 42lbs injectors and they said that the max they could run was 12 degrees of timeing. Now here is some new info to explain the LOW numbers,
> 
> " THE OWNER IS A DUMB ASS"
> 
> this guy owned a f-body with LS1 in it prior to the GTO and alwayse ran 93 octane, the only thing he has ever put in the GTO is 87. YES 87 octane, even after adding the turbo, can we all say it together " DUMB ASS" he has had the car back less than a week and it is back at the shop that put the turbo on with the engine nocking, after much heated descussion he finaly admitted to only running 87, again " D... A..". He has lost compression in atleast 1 cylinder and is having the entire turbo system taken off and returned to stock form so that he can take it to the dealership and try to have it fixed under warrenty, All I can say is I hope the look at him and laugh. I realy wish that is was illegal for people that stuped to won a car like the GTO


Well, you're right, wow! All over the STS kit it says use 93 octane fuel.... :willy:


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## asteng88 (Aug 26, 2004)

Clevite 77 said:


> Seriously concidering a GTO, I'm quite dissapointed. The LS1 F-bodies were rated at 325hp (talking SS/WS6) at the flywheel. They were dynoing at 300hp at the wheels.
> 
> If all they have is 320-340hp at the wheels, I may have to consider something different. Hell I can mod my 2001 Regal GS (sister to the GTP) and easily walk a GTO. I'm also considering the Mustang GT 500, this will have the 5.4L S/C just like the lightning/Ford GT and will have 450hp, and 450lbs of tq, as you know the 03-04 cobra's only had 390 hp, but with the factory S/C, it's easy to get 450-500 at the rear wheels.
> 
> ...


What a crock of crap.


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## JMVorbeck (Jun 1, 2005)

Clevite 77 said:


> Seriously concidering a GTO, I'm quite dissapointed. The LS1 F-bodies were rated at 325hp (talking SS/WS6) at the flywheel. They were dynoing at 300hp at the wheels.
> 
> If all they have is 320-340hp at the wheels, I may have to consider something different. Hell I can mod my 2001 Regal GS (sister to the GTP) and easily walk a GTO. I'm also considering the Mustang GT 500, this will have the 5.4L S/C just like the lightning/Ford GT and will have 450hp, and 450lbs of tq, as you know the 03-04 cobra's only had 390 hp, but with the factory S/C, it's easy to get 450-500 at the rear wheels.
> 
> ...


You bring your Buick on. "Easily walk a GTO" :lol: You have got to be joking. If you made enough power with that 3800 to "walk" on my GTO that snotbox FWD automatic would rip itself right out of the engine cradle and go on down the road without you or your car. Maybe then your engine would have a chance at keeping up. If you are disappointed with the 05 GTO and its performance right out of the box you are either rich and are used to driving exotic sportscars or you need to quit huffing the touch up paint for your Buick. "Hell I can mod my 2001 Regal GS (sister to the GTP) and easily walk a GTO. " HAHAHAAAAAHA!! AHHHHAHAHAHA!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I think someone has been spending too much time powdering thier nutz with the other guys.


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## gtx76 (Jun 29, 2006)

:lol:


6QTS11OZ said:


> Why do you think GM would intentionally underrate the horsepower of a modern day engine? I know it's not due to insurance costs or fuel efficiency. Back in the 70s I know those were the reasons for underrating engines. And why would they underrate the F-body LS1 and not the Corvette's LS1? I had an intake, headers, 160 thermostat, Hypertech Power Programmer 2, Corsa Daytona Catback system, throttle body bypass and a few other small mods that probably didn't make too much of a difference on my '98 Vette and I dynoed at 300 hp/300 lb. ft. of torque at the rear wheels. Most stock hp dyno results posted on The Corvette Forum averaged around 270-275. So gaining 25-30 hp with the above mods seemed reasonable. I know that all (same) engines aren't going to produce the _exact_ same horsepower but for all or even most F-body LS1s being underrated is hard to believe. Maybe it's true... maybe it's not, but the importance of my post is the first question.


The reason the F body cars were under rated is the Corvette. GM did not want to upset the Vette owners by having a lowly F body with the same HP. I have owned 2 WS6 325hp Trans Ams and a 345hp Vette Coupe. The LS1 in the Vette had about the same power as the WS6's LS1, (the Vette was several hundred pounds lighter and had better traction!  ). The best I saw an F body dyno at was a car show in Tennessee, a kid had a new 02 WS6 with about 800 miles on it and it dynoed at 336. I had an 01 WS6 at the time, (an oil burner ), and talked with him for a while. He had never ran the car through the gears, he was very intimidated by it :lol: . I am not saying this was a typical LS1, but the difference between the F body and the Vette was nil.


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## BostonF4$ (Jun 21, 2006)

Ya guy you're outta your mind thinkin a '01 Buick w/ mods will beat any stock GTO. What kinda mods?? A huge turbo and shot of nitrous that will blow the engine up so it's not driveable?? Any stock car getting 13's in the 1/4 is a sick ride. That GT500 will run you just under 45grand....you can walk out of the dealer w/ 0% interest on an 05 GTO for 27 grand...w/ 400HP/TQ at the crank. I guarantee that GT500 won't make near what it's claiming. Remember the 99 Cobras?? I do. My neighbor had one and it made something like 80 HP less than claimed! His 95 was way faster. If you want a fast mustang forget about ford and get a Saleen, then strap on one of those cigarette outlet massagers to the seat to deal with the ride quality


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