# Ram Air Pan or Not ???



## cij911 (Oct 25, 2017)

I am curious if folks have found the Ram Air pan beneficial or not ??? I put a Ram Air pan on and suspect the car is being starved for air. I am curious if others have logged air flow or have data to indicate if the "restricted cold air" is better than plenty of warm air.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I ran one on my '66 with tripower for years, and then on my '67 with tripower for a few years. No air restrictions whatsoever. But the '66 and '67 have the pan going right to the air scoop, so lots of cold fresh air is a given. Not sure about later cars, if that's what you have. But willing to bet that any ram air set up is an improvement over under-hood air.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

cij911 said:


> I am curious if folks have found the Ram Air pan beneficial or not ??? I put a Ram Air pan on and suspect the car is being starved for air. I am curious if others have logged air flow or have data to indicate if the "restricted cold air" is better than plenty of warm air.


It'll starve for air if you didn't open up the scoops seeing it seals to the hood.

The ram air itself is a bit misleading. It doesn't ram a bunch of air in as you might think. The benefit is actually cooler outside air being drawn in by the carbs. Milt Schornak found that the cooler air allowed for richer jets and_ that _is where the additional power comes from - cooler air + more gas. :thumbsup:

If you want the ram air effect, you want to screw one of these scoops on your hood with the open side facing forwards - ya, that should do it. :yesnod:


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## cij911 (Oct 25, 2017)

Thanks Gents! The pan on my 65 has the foam and is snug on the underside of the hood. The inserts have been completely opened up.

This weekend I will log AFRs with and without the pan. My guess is the inserts, even though opened, are not allowing enough air in and the car will run richer.

I also know this is a low pressure part of the hood, so there is actually no real ram air affect. I had thought about running 2 intakes from the front grill up to the pan, but could not get over the fact it would look ugly.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

I have wondered about the possibility of air restriction as well. I have run the ram air pan with a 4bl on a 67 with a 400. I don't think it was limiting airflow, but, as others have said, it did give more cool air access than under hood air. I'm assembling a 65 now, so same hood scoop, but will be running a much larger engine. I'm considering running some cool air hoses/tubes from the headlight openings to the ram air pan. It looked good on the Royal Bobcats when they did that. I don't know if they plumbed them into a ram air pan or not, but up in the front of the car at the headlight opening, I suspect that could provide some actual "ram air" as well as more cool air access.


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## cij911 (Oct 25, 2017)

michaelfind said:


> I have wondered about the possibility of air restriction as well. I have run the ram air pan with a 4bl on a 67 with a 400. I don't think it was limiting airflow, but, as others have said, it did give more cool air access than under hood air. I'm assembling a 65 now, so same hood scoop, but will be running a much larger engine. I'm considering running some cool air hoses/tubes from the headlight openings to the ram air pan. It looked good on the Royal Bobcats when they did that. I don't know if they plumbed them into a ram air pan or not, but up in the front of the car at the headlight opening, I suspect that could provide some actual "ram air" as well as more cool air access.


That is exactly what I was thinking about doing. This solution (gathering air from the front of the car at each side of the radiator) would add high pressure, cold air and if routed to the pan would be ideal.

Do you have any pictures of the Royal Bobcat setups?

Thanks


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

cij911 said:


> That is exactly what I was thinking about doing. This solution (gathering air from the front of the car at each side of the radiator) would add high pressure, cold air and if routed to the pan would be ideal.
> 
> Do you have any pictures of the Royal Bobcat setups?
> 
> Thanks


Oldsmobile used to offer a system that gathered the air from under the bumper. The 1966 W30 option with tripower used the first set-up pictured below. Only 54 produced. 1967 had its own system which used the Q-jet and then the 1968-69 version which is pictured. Here is a website that has all the parts - dual snorkel air cleaner, connecting tubes, under bumper scoops. 1968-69 Outside Air Induction ( Ram Air) Parts-Fusick Automotive Products, Inc.

Here is an aftermarket set-up like what you are looking to do. It is available from Summit, but is for the 4-Bbl carb. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/spe-733/applications


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

If I do have those old photos, I don't currently know where they are. They are probably in some of my father's old Hot Rod magazines. I know I've seen such pictures several years ago. This link has some interesting diagrams but none of the photos I remember. Pontiac's Ram Air Rarities - Page 1 

In another thread on this site, I found this place to be interesting. It looks like they may be able to fabricate something with an underhood ram air pan by adding one of their systems to it? About Ram Air Box 

I have not contacted them so don't know much about them. The prices list looks pretty reasonable.


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## cij911 (Oct 25, 2017)

Jim, thanks a ton but these don’t appear to be designed for a tri power setup. I wish they were as it would be cleaner.


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## cij911 (Oct 25, 2017)

Michael, thanks for your information. I’ve reached out to Airbox and will see if they respond.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

I hope that works out for you. Please let me know if they do good work. My GTO is not at all original so I'm thinking of trying to make a dual quad ram air pan and plumbing into it with air from the front. I've never seen a dual quad air pan in real life but this link has some interesting photos of a beautiful 65 that appears to have one. I don't think Pontiac ever made such a pan, but maybe I can start with a tri-power aftermarket pan and rework the bottom plate. But I'm getting ahead of myself. I'd better get the engine finished first.
https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0117-274287/1965-pontiac-gto/


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

michaelfind said:


> I hope that works out for you. Please let me know if they do good work. My GTO is not at all original so I'm thinking of trying to make a dual quad ram air pan and plumbing into it with air from the front. I've never seen a dual quad air pan in real life but this link has some interesting photos of a beautiful 65 that appears to have one. I don't think Pontiac ever made such a pan, but maybe I can start with a tri-power aftermarket pan and rework the bottom plate. But I'm getting ahead of myself. I'd better get the engine finished first.
> https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0117-274287/1965-pontiac-gto/


NO, Pontiac never made a 2x4 ram air pan. Seems obvious that you guys don't have any fabrication skills??

Looking at the '65 pictured, easy enough. Get a reproduction fiberglass/ABS tri-power pan, fashion up a thin steel plate fitted to the carbs and the inside width of the bottom of a tri-power pan. Cut the bottom out of the tri-power pan leaving an inside lip around outside to give you something to bond the steel plate to and then fiberglass the steel plate in place - that's it. You may have to make a custom pan seal or use a spacer to raise the pan up on the carb necks to get a good factory type seal to the hood.

Easy enough to fashion up a enclosed ram air box attaching outlets to pick up incoming air from under the bumper or if space allows, from the inside headlights. Just takes a little metal shaping, welding, and air duct work - a local fabrication shop that can shape metal would most likely be able to do this for you if you could not fashion it up yourself. In this instance, you might buy the steel tri-power pan because it will be more rigid than the ABS pan and have a shop form a side enclosure that follows the shape of the pan where the foam seal would go. Then have a lid made that is the same shape - I'd go with 3/16" - 1/4" aluminum. Cut you openings/holes in the side of the enclosure where you want to connect your duct work. Cut the air duct at an angle to match your hose hook-ups, then have it fitted/welded to the side openings/holes. Add you hoses and however you plan on pulling in your air connects. :thumbsup:

Just have to think outside the box to make your air box. Of course there is always the Hilborn type aftermarket scoops made for the 2x4 which you could also adapt for air inlets and possibly fabricate a base for the tri-power use. Bottom line - if I wanted a ram air box, I would be able to come up with something that would work. I like to use templates which you could form/cut/tape together to rough out a workable design. :yesnod:


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

PontiacJim said:


> NO, Pontiac never made a 2x4 ram air pan. Seems obvious that you guys don't have any fabrication skills??
> 
> Looking at the '65 pictured, easy enough. Get a reproduction fiberglass/ABS tri-power pan, fashion up a thin steel plate fitted to the carbs and the inside width of the bottom of a tri-power pan. Cut the bottom out of the tri-power pan leaving an inside lip around outside to give you something to bond the steel plate to and then fiberglass the steel plate in place - that's it. You may have to make a custom pan seal or use a spacer to raise the pan up on the carb necks to get a good factory type seal to the hood.
> 
> ...


Sounds like an excellent plan. Thanks for the advice. I admit I am not very good at fabricating things. I have done a few modifications here and there, but they typically look terrible. As a teenager, I was too quick with the duct tape and super glue. The final product was usually more than hilarious. I guess in my case, the key is to plan it out well and then get some professional help with the actual finished product. 
:grin2:


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

michaelfind said:


> Sounds like an excellent plan. Thanks for the advice. I admit I am not very good at fabricating things. I have done a few modifications here and there, but they typically look terrible. As a teenager, I was too quick with the duct tape and super glue. The final product was usually more than hilarious. I guess in my case, the key is to plan it out well and then get some professional help with the actual finished product.
> :grin2:


Fabrication just requires some luck at times. You screw up, learn, re-do the project, screw it up less, re-do it again, and then success. I've certainly had my share of fabrications that went into the garbage, junk pile, or needed a complete redesign. LOL 

I kinda learned that it is best to make a template using something like a manila file where it is heavier than paper, but not so heavy as cardboard where you cannot form it. If you have any flat templates that don't need any bends, then you could use the heavier cardboard. You are essentially building a visual model. If you figure out dimensions, put a diagram with those dimensions on paper and you can bring it to a fab shop and they will make your sheet metal/aluminum pieces for you if you can weld, or you could bring your "working model" to them and have them reproduce it. Most fab shops will work with you and even give suggestions if they see a better alternative.

Good places to walk through are Home Depot/Lowes and just go up and down the aisles looking at "stuff" which can spark a few ideas to shape what it is you visualize your project to be. Search the internet as well, as sometimes buying something you can use or modify is a better choice in time savings and the hassle of fabbing up the part. Just remember to try and keep it basic and simple and not too complex.

If you wanted to get fancy, by using a 1/4" aluminum top, you could have a design of your liking inscribed into the top. Aluminum will cut like wood and my guess is that a router and correct woodbit could easily be set to cut a nice shallow 1/16" depth design in it - then you can enhance it further with color to bring things out. :yesnod:


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## cij911 (Oct 25, 2017)

PontiacJim said:


> NO, Pontiac never made a 2x4 ram air pan. Seems obvious that you guys don't have any fabrication skills??
> 
> Looking at the '65 pictured, easy enough. Get a reproduction fiberglass/ABS tri-power pan, fashion up a thin steel plate fitted to the carbs and the inside width of the bottom of a tri-power pan. Cut the bottom out of the tri-power pan leaving an inside lip around outside to give you something to bond the steel plate to and then fiberglass the steel plate in place - that's it. You may have to make a custom pan seal or use a spacer to raise the pan up on the carb necks to get a good factory type seal to the hood.
> 
> ...


Jim, IMHO the fabrication of the box or base is the easy part. The hard part is getting high pressure, cold air into the box while not destroying the look of the 65' engine bay. Sure I can easily route 2x 3" diameter ducts up to the box, but it will likely look silly.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

cij911 said:


> Jim, IMHO the fabrication of the box or base is the easy part. The hard part is getting high pressure, cold air into the box while not destroying the look of the 65' engine bay. Sure I can easily route 2x 3" diameter ducts up to the box, but it will likely look silly.


Doesn't look silly on the Oldsmobile and they somehow channeled the ducts under the front bumper. Pull out a headlight as some do and duct it in from there or perhaps bore a hole in the inner fender well to slip the ducting down through and pick up the air from under the bumper (?). May have to relocate the battery to the trunk so you can fit the duct.

Where there is a will, there is a way, but it may take modifying/cutting your car.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Took a picture of a couple air cleaners. You could possibly use & modify the intake snout to adapt to a ram air box and then attach your duct hoses to them. These are kinda flat and might work well seeing there is not a lot of room between the hood and the base of the ram air pan/tri-power carbs. Might give it a more "original" look by using these.

Just another thought. :thumbsup:


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

PontiacJim said:


> Fabrication just requires some luck at times. You screw up, learn, re-do the project, screw it up less, re-do it again, and then success. I've certainly had my share of fabrications that went into the garbage, junk pile, or needed a complete redesign. LOL
> 
> I kinda learned that it is best to make a template using something like a manila file where it is heavier than paper, but not so heavy as cardboard where you cannot form it. If you have any flat templates that don't need any bends, then you could use the heavier cardboard. You are essentially building a visual model. If you figure out dimensions, put a diagram with those dimensions on paper and you can bring it to a fab shop and they will make your sheet metal/aluminum pieces for you if you can weld, or you could bring your "working model" to them and have them reproduce it. Most fab shops will work with you and even give suggestions if they see a better alternative.
> 
> ...


I will do well to make it functional and clean in appearance. If I get too fancy, it will get messy. I guess I now realize that I was always making the template or model, but because of youthful impulsivity and lack of a real budget, the model was my final product. No wonder it was always a disastrous failure!:rofl:


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

A member of this forum (Instig8ter) has already done this on his '66 with dual quads. Came out really nice.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

Thank you. I'm still fairly new here. Are there pictures I can use as a guide?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

michaelfind said:


> Thank you. I'm still fairly new here. Are there pictures I can use as a guide?


It is not a Ram Air setup like you are looking to do. It is a dual quad setup fitted to work as the factory tripower/ram air tub works. https://www.gtoforum.com/f50/ram-air-dual-quads-39051/


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

i did just as Jim said, cut out the bottom and cut a new filler in Phenolic with the holes matching the manifold centers. then glued in the lower plates of my air cleaners so it seats perfect on the carbs. i used 1" phenolic spacers on the Demon carbs and set up a sequential throttle bar that lets me adjust when the primaries and secondaries come in. I was worried about street-abilit and gas usage but the Demons bowls are small front and large butterfly backs very similar to Quadrajets, so as long as i keep my foot out of it i get great mileage on the two barrels and when i get into it with the TH400 it feels like a 6 speed auto with the barrels coming in between the shifts. SStill trying to get the 3:55 rear in it, as with the 2:56 after roasting a set of tires it really wants to pull hard at 40 up to 100. The 3:55 12 bolt should make it a lot more fun light to light and still let me get on the freeway under 2500rpm.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

heres a few pics if you click on the photolink at the bottom of my signature it shows the whole process and it all fits under hood.


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## cij911 (Oct 25, 2017)

Instg8ter said:


> heres a few pics if you click on the photolink at the bottom of my signature it shows the whole process and it all fits under hood.


Instg8ter - Have you logged AFRs with and without the pan? I am curious if the opening in the hood allows enough air to the carbs under WOT conditions. (I need to cut some more material off the hood to make the opening less restricted.)


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

No i have not, it likes the cool days and does not starve, hesitate or bog down and does get a boost at faster speeds. plugs are if anything a tad rich and i run 93 with a top off of 5 gallons Torco if im in town. Running 9.6 comp with 455 +.030 dyno at 515TQ/475HP at 5400 rpm before sequential carb tuning. it's a driver and i have been driving it in MI the last few nice days.I have to still do new RA exh. gaskets as they burned holes in mine on the dyno. and im using layered that are leaking. And i have to order a 3:55 posi for the 12 bolt i have and replace the 2:56 freeway gear, it will be a monster when i move the power band down into with the lower.

Side note, i ended up using the 600 Demon carbs with 1" phenolic spacers because of spacing and accesability. I was able to mill a small bit off back ones plate and retain the elec. ignitine .I also love that the bowls are like a Quadrajet (small/large) and i am still getting good gas mileage on the primaries if i keep my foot out of the bucket


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Inst, you will hate driving on the highway after you install 3.55 gears. Trust me. IMO, a perfect choice for your combo would be a 2.93 or a 3.08. A 3.55 gear will limit your cruising speed to about 60 mph. You said 2500 RPM....with 3.55's and an automatic (300 RPM gain due to TQ slippage) you're looking at a cruising speed of 50-55 MPH. BTDT, and will never do it again. I like to go 75-85 mph and get good mileage doing it....especially with the $4 per gallon gas in my area. Just a thought!!!

A good friend of mine had a 12 bolt built for his '66 back int 1991. I advised him to do a 3.08. He wanted a 3.73. Spent $2700 in 1991 dollars getting a tricked out 3.73. Long story short, he is now running a junkyard 2.56 ten bolt and told me last week he wishes he listened to me and installed the 3.08's....which he is saving up to do as we speak.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

I have to agree that if you are going to drive regularly, 3.55 gears will not be great. I have used the TH400 and 3.55 combination for many years. Mine may be a bit better or worse because it is a "switch pitch" TH400, but I think when not using high stall mode, it is the same as any other TH400. If you are driving much, it will use a lot of fuel at highway speeds. I am thankful that I now have another vehicle as a daily driver. I sometimes even wish for a little more gear in the rear end, but it is what I have for now and I'm sticking with it. Perhaps the upgrade from 400ci to the 461 stroker will make the difference I'm looking for.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Recently rode in my buddy's restored '67 GTO with a 3.55 and a 4 speed, so no TQ slippage. Fast, tight , car. Comfortable cruising speed is 55 mph with stock tires. At 60, it gets pretty busy and sucks gas. I used to run 3.55's back in the day when the speed limit was 55 mph. They were just fine then. Nowadays, they just don't cut it on a car without an overdrive, IMO.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

geeteeohguy said:


> Inst, you will hate driving on the highway after you install 3.55 gears. Trust me. IMO, a perfect choice for your combo would be a 2.93 or a 3.08. A 3.55 gear will limit your cruising speed to about 60 mph. You said 2500 RPM....with 3.55's and an automatic (300 RPM gain due to TQ slippage) you're looking at a cruising speed of 50-55 MPH. BTDT, and will never do it again. I like to go 75-85 mph and get good mileage doing it....especially with the $4 per gallon gas in my area. Just a thought!!!
> 
> A good friend of mine had a 12 bolt built for his '66 back int 1991. I advised him to do a 3.08. He wanted a 3.73. Spent $2700 in 1991 dollars getting a tricked out 3.73. Long story short, he is now running a junkyard 2.56 ten bolt and told me last week he wishes he listened to me and installed the 3.08's....which he is saving up to do as we speak.


Gee Tee is the 2:93 the tallest gear that will fit in that series? I have a good 3:55 gear but would buy a new one since its on a spindle and i have to order a carrier unit anyways if i could keep the taller gear and get posi for all the reasons you said. Right now i am at just under 2200 rpm at 68 MPH. I am wearing the peg leg (and tires out), but i love it.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Inst, what rear end do you have? The ten and twelve bolts are all different. The 8.2 2.56 you are running now will only accept up to a 2.78 gear. The next step up (or down) is the 2.93---3.23 carrier. After that, it's the 3.36--4.33 carrier. 12 bolts have different cut points. I think with your cubes and transmission, a 2.93 would be the best (for me) but for you, a 3.08 might be the perfect ratio. Plenty of grunt off the line, but still way better on the open road than 3.55's, although on paper it doesn't seem like it.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

i have a chevy 12 bolt to replace stock 8", i believe its a series two as it has a 3:55 with a spindle now. I need to order the posi unit and new main and pinion gears, im with you on all your points, i love getting 2 barrel gas mileage and rpms low at 65 at least. I know the chevys have different gears but id like to be right around 2:93 (in chevy gear).

Thanks


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

I never found the old Bobcat pictures, BUT, as I was looking for a picture of how the rear sway bar should fit in a 65-67, I came across this photo. This is essentially how I remember it looking on the Bobcats in the old magazine pictures. It's not a ram air pan, but gives the idea of how it looks from the front of the car.


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