# Saw The GTO Replacement On The Road



## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

I was driving beside one of these (in black) today in heavy traffic. I couldn't help but notice that the profile looked a hell of a lot like the GTO. Look at the roof line, the butt, the snout, the overall proportions, even the twin openings in the grill! It was roughly the same size and looked to have a decent rear seat.










When I got home, I checked the specs on BMW's website for the 650i.
4.8L V8
360 HP
360 Lb Ft
3,814 Lb Curb Weight
0-60 MPH in 5.3 seconds
Base Price $75,600

BMW has created the 2004 Pontiac GTO. At more than twice the price.

As Fergyflyer has remarked repeatedly, GM totally mismanaged the marketing of the GTO. By the time the 2005 GTO came along, the Pontiac gave away some style and content to the German car but, at less than half the price, the performance was comparable.

As I've said in the past, at it's price point, the GTO had no competition. The Mustang was not in the same class. That's a pony car, not a grand touring car.

If only GM had marketed the car where it belonged..............


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## snide (Dec 28, 2004)

The horses are out. Should prolly close the barn door then...


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## PDQ GTO (Jun 21, 2007)

Nice post...:agree


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## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

Wing,
Fully agree with you on all points!


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## 06brazengto (Sep 21, 2007)

indeed :agree


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## Mr. Sinister (Nov 18, 2007)

price isn't an issie for most BMW owners it seems. regardless of what they could get for half the price, they want the BMW as a status symbol. people like that would never admit to owning a pontiac, it makes them feel good to say they own a BMW. they do make nice cars, but i feel they are greatly overpriced.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Well..... Yes, it's hard to justify paying for a 650i based on numbers and stats.... But if you went to the dealership and drove a new BMW, you'd see there's alot more to the overall picture than just h.p., weight and seating capacity...

BMW's have a knack for making 120 mph feel like 55 mph.... My Goat is good at-speed as well, but there's something about going fast in a Bimmer that's spooky-good, makes you wonder "how come GM's engineers can't achieve this?"....

In any case, no doubt our GTO's are an enormous bargain for what they deliver... That's why I bought mine...

Some people buy premium cars for the "status", but that doesn't mean that the cars underneath the badges are just posers as well... A BMW is a seriously good machine, that costs an arm and a leg for them to build. It's not like they make $50 grand on every sale, laughing that people are just tossing cash at them for the grille emblem... 

A guy might buy a Ferrari just for the looks and status, but that doesn't take ANYTHING away from the Ferrari as a car. And there are folks out there who buy cars like that for the good reasons, engineering, materials, craftsmanship, and art... But that gets lost in the shuffle when class-envy clouds folks' vision.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

I saw one of those. It was coming towards me, a silver one. When I saw it I first said to myself ...another silver goat.... until it got closer. I realized it was a BMW. From a distance it looked just like a goat. 

Man, even other car manufacturers are making Caviler looking cars now. :willy: :willy:


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## koman (Sep 25, 2006)

when i did my car shopping i did test drive the 650i bimmer. the sound, the feel (except my brakes), and performance seem very very much the same. if the poncho had those super sensitive beefy rascals the bimmer had i would call it the perfect ride. really in comparison the gto is more of what i would have wanted, something without many frills and thrills that's just raw driving machine. comparing the two side by side the gto is like someone took a decently built go-cart and stuffed an oversized orge engine into it. the 650i felt more like they did the same thing but thought about making something else the center piece instead of the motor. the electronics in the 650i were above me but you do get far more dodads and gadgets. there was far more "driver safety electronics" onboard too. i was thinking about this thing a few weeks ago. glad someone agrees with me:cheers


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## harrysxlr (Oct 27, 2006)

69bossnine said:


> Well..... Yes, it's hard to justify paying for a 650i based on numbers and stats.... But if you went to the dealership and drove a new BMW, you'd see there's alot more to the overall picture than just h.p., weight and seating capacity...
> 
> BMW's have a knack for making 120 mph feel like 55 mph.... My Goat is good at-speed as well, but there's something about going fast in a Bimmer that's spooky-good, makes you wonder "how come GM's engineers can't achieve this?"....
> 
> ...


Bossnine, since my daughter have her goat here in Germany I can tell you this GTO is a real Autobahn - runner.
I`ve had it last week for a longer Autobahn trip and it beats allmost everything what`s on the road! I drove a 650 too but believe me the goat is much more fun and it begins when you start the engine first to second gear wheel spin - no automatic BMW will do this and to drive the goat in the 100 - 165 mph range is an easy thing. I don`t know who set the overspeed chime on the GTO, it was set at 200 kph (124 mph) and on a distance of 150 autobahn-miles I allways had that chime but the good thing about was, it only lasts a couple of seconds and the didital speedo comes up again but then shows already like 240/260 kph`s ( 149/162 mph) when I keep pressing the pedal.

BTW when you are doing in a goat high speeds or a longer time it feels like you`re doing 50 mph, you only have to be careful when you want enter an exit:lol: 

I have an STS and an XLR but most fun to drive is my daughters GTO:cheers 

Harry


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

It's all in what you're used to.... I've been driving raw-ish tire-spinning American V8's my entire life, I always am amazed when I'm driving a BMW by how "serene" and effortless they are at very high speeds... Not that it's necessarily more fun, it's just what you get for the bigger dollars, a different level of refinement and execution.

After all, if you really want to have fun, you go minimalist and hop on a bike...


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

Pontiac definitely blew it with the GTO big time. I was at a Pontiac Motorsports event at Infineon Raceway this summer and had a chance to gab with some of their marketing people. They justified their incorrect selling of the GTO as a muscle car by saying "people who buy BMWs simply aren't going to be interested in a domestic car because they want the name."

To me, that's way wrong. First of all, the Pontiac nameplate, at the time the GTO came out, didn't stand for anything. A bunch of Grand Ams, Grand Prixs, Azteks, Sunfires, etc. No performance heritage there. 

Pontiac dealers suck, too. The buying process at most of their stores is a circus. The service process is 10 times worse. Meanwhile, BMW stores, more often than not, have a much better buying and service process. Sure, they might play some games -- but they're never crude or flat out incompetent.

Pontiac managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. If they really wanted to get this product right, I felt they should have done the following:

1. Import the car as a LHD Holden Monaro.

2. Establish Holden dealerships within only the very best Pontiac dealerships -- in a manner similar to how the Scion brand is sold within Toyota stores. No massive amounts of overhead -- just a branded section within an established store capable of delivering a top notch buying and ownership experience.

3. Train the living hell out of anybody charged with selling or maintaining Holdens. And if they don't measure up, get rid of them.

That way, GM would have had an inexpensive way of making a clean start with buyers of upscale product. Instead, they slapped on the GTO name (which pissed off all the old school GTO owners), chickened out by marketing it a muscle car to former F-body owners and let any Pontiac dealer, no matter how body their customer satisfaction ratings were, sell them. 

As a result, the majority of GTO prospects weren't conquest sales from other brands -- and the few people who did recognize a great car when they saw one were treated like crap. The Pontiac brand is still fairly weak -- when they could have built an extremely valuable asset with the Holden name -- something they could further capitalize on by bringing in small amounts of speciality cars and selling them at or near sticker every time. Come to think of it, GM spent money on tooling for a new front end -- when quite a few people liked the Monaro front end or the HSV one even better. Why? If it was for crash standards, that's one thing, but if it was just for branding, what a waste of cash.

Oh, well. Glad I don't work for GM (a.k.a. GroupThink Motors). And their incompetence allowed me to get mine for $25,999 with 0% financing for three years.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

I`m sure this point has been hammered to death, but I just can`t help saying it again. 
If the new GTO looked like ANY year GTO, it would have sold much better. Every other retro car looks like it`s predecessor. The Mustang looks like a mustang, the thunderbird looks like a thunderbird, the Charger looks like a charger, heck even the new beetle looks like a beetle. But the new GTO looks more like a Merc Sable then a GTO. There was no reason why they couldn`t have pulled it off, gave it a square body like the `64-65s (my favorite yrs) and even made a Pontiac V-8 engine with three throttle bodies, RAM AIR, Judge style wing. If it had looked anything like a GTO, I for one would have been all over it.


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## Mr. Sinister (Nov 18, 2007)

Pontiac does have a performance history. The original GTO, big motored Tempest and LeMans, the Firebird and Trans Am. Pontiac needed performance after GM axed the F-Body, so they go out and find a quick and dirty car to call the GTO, which I think is a great car obviously, but wasn't perceived as a worth continuation of the GTO name in the general public's eyes.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Rukee said:


> I`m sure this point has been hammered to death, but I just can`t help saying it again.
> If the new GTO looked like ANY year GTO, it would have sold much better. Every other retro car looks like it`s predecessor. The Mustang looks like a mustang, the thunderbird looks like a thunderbird, the Charger looks like a charger, heck even the new beetle looks like a beetle. But the new GTO looks more like a Merc Sable then a GTO. There was no reason why they couldn`t have pulled it off, gave it a square body like the `64-65s (my favorite yrs) and even made a Pontiac V-8 engine with three throttle bodies, RAM AIR, Judge style wing. If it had looked anything like a GTO, I for one would have been all over it.


Are we forgetting... That prior to the 2004 GTO introduction, "Any year GTO" looked almost identical to a pedestrian run-of-the-mill Lemans/Tempest, which in-turn shared certain styling features that ran constant throughout the Pontiac family??

The GTO NEVER DID have it's own iconic style.... It was always, from the beginning, meant as a sleeper, a wolf in sheep's clothing, what looked to be your aunt fanny's grocery-getter with a nuke under the hood...

Sure, maybe Pontiac did get it wrong, and maybe they should have styled-up a full retro-machine... But what they did do was follow the true original concept of the GTO... Problem was, that nobody remembered, and/or nobody cared, that the original Goat was never about unique looks.. The styling changes were quite subtle until the goofy (IMHO) Judge came out, which at the time caught hell in the automotive press for being cartoonish...


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Another thought.... The 1968 GTO looked absolutely NOTHING like the '67 it replaced, or anything earlier... Why was it o.k. then, and not o.k. now? 

I really don't know how designers could have effectively translated any of the classic GTO bodystyles into the 21st-century... The original bodystyle Mustang translated beautifully into the 2005, as does the Camaro, as does the Challenger.... For whatever reason, those shapes, those designs, have legs...

But when I think of the old GTO's, and believe me, I not only love 'em, I OWN a '67 (my favorite year bar-none...), I can't figure out how you make a good looking new car out of the styling elements from the 60's versions... The new T-Bird was one such "flop", sounded good in theory, and the originals sure were beautiful, but they just couldn't figure out how to make that work 45 years later, without being a tad goofy and kitschy.

Everybody says they want a retro GTO, but have you ever visualized it and it not look like a mutant-nightmare?

If there were wonderful concepts drawn or published that I'm not aware of, then by all means, post 'em up...


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

69bossnine said:


> Well..... Yes, it's hard to justify paying for a 650i based on numbers and stats.... But if you went to the dealership and drove a new BMW, you'd see there's alot more to the overall picture than just h.p., weight and seating capacity...


OMG, you are the target audience of marketing departments everywhere. 


"It's more than the sum of it's parts".
"Nothing says you love her like a diamond".
"Only for the few who can appreciate it"



69bossnine said:


> BMW's have a knack for making 120 mph feel like 55 mph....


Only in your mind. Mission accomplished Hans und Klaus. Nice ad copy! And don't forget the fine Corinthinain leather! Anybody know what that is?



69bossnine said:


> But that gets lost in the shuffle when class-envy clouds folks' vision.


That's it, my judgement is clouded by insane jealousy. I want the fine Corinthian leather! I want the blonde babes with the plastic titties! I want to crap all over parking attendants! I want to spend as much money as I possibly can on rapidly depreciating assets with that intangible "je ne sais quoi". I want the body spray that drives women wild. I want the "right" cigar and the "right" Scotch. I wanna fist punch all the cool guys. I want an iPhone....no three iPhones. I want the Enzyte and Rogaine to work. I want whiter teeth. But most of all, I have an insatiable compulsion to impress strangers whose company I would not willingly tolerate were I ever to meet them. 

I feel so.........ashamed.


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## gtoforspeed (May 19, 2007)

69bossnine said:


> Are we forgetting... That prior to the 2004 GTO introduction, "Any year GTO" looked almost identical to a pedestrian run-of-the-mill Lemans/Tempest, which in-turn shared certain styling features that ran constant throughout the Pontiac family??
> 
> The GTO NEVER DID have it's own iconic style.... It was always, from the beginning, meant as a sleeper, a wolf in sheep's clothing, what looked to be your aunt fanny's grocery-getter with a nuke under the hood...
> 
> Sure, maybe Pontiac did get it wrong, and maybe they should have styled-up a full retro-machine... But what they did do was follow the true original concept of the GTO... Problem was, that nobody remembered, and/or nobody cared, that the original Goat was never about unique looks.. The styling changes were quite subtle until the goofy (IMHO) Judge came out, which at the time caught hell in the automotive press for being cartoonish...


I remembered what it was all about or rather noticed what they were doing before and appriciated what they were doing now... thats ONE reason why i picked the Goat


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

69bossnine said:


> Are we forgetting... That prior to the 2004 GTO introduction, "Any year GTO" looked almost identical to a pedestrian run-of-the-mill Lemans/Tempest, which in-turn shared certain styling features that ran constant throughout the Pontiac family??
> 
> The GTO NEVER DID have it's own iconic style.... It was always, from the beginning, meant as a sleeper, a wolf in sheep's clothing, what looked to be your aunt fanny's grocery-getter with a nuke under the hood...
> 
> Sure, maybe Pontiac did get it wrong, and maybe they should have styled-up a full retro-machine... But what they did do was follow the true original concept of the GTO... Problem was, that nobody remembered, and/or nobody cared, that the original Goat was never about unique looks.. The styling changes were quite subtle until the goofy (IMHO) Judge came out, which at the time caught hell in the automotive press for being cartoonish...




The classic cars were completely different. The GTO was the first Pontiac void of hood chrome, side moldings, trunk chrome strip, it had a hood scoop, big block engine, custom interior, factory Hurst shifter, factory posi rear end. Sure they were based off other production Pontiacs, but they had a look all their own that made them a GTO.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Rukee said:


> The classic cars were complely diffrent. The GTO was the first Pontiac void of hood chrome, side moldings, trunk chrome strip, it had a hood scoop, big block engine, custom interior, factory Hust shifter. Sure they were based off other production Pontiacs, but they had a look all their own that made them a GTO.


I think it's a bit of a stretch to call a LeMans with a small hood scoop and some subtle trim and taillamp changes "completely different". And none of your statements regarding trim, or lack of trim, are accurate at all...

The GTO was not the "first Pontiac void of hood chrome", not even close. Furthermore, there's no hood chrome on a 1964 Tempest or Lemans or GTO, they all have the same basic trim up front, on the sides, and in the rear, except for the GTO emblem.. Neither did any of the rest of the Pontiac line have hood chrome in '64. Pontiac did differentiate the GTO a bit more in the grille in later years, but it was an exercise in adding flash, not removing it..

The 389 is not considered a big block or a small block, and never has... It's an intermediate.

Custom interior.... Just different dielectric embossing and some wood applique in later years, big deal...

The 1964 GTO was not even it's own model, it was officially an "option package" added to the LeMans for $296 bucks. It evolved from there. But let's at least be honest with our history, Wikipedia is only a mouse-click away...


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Wing_Nut said:


> OMG, you are the target audience of marketing departments everywhere.
> 
> 
> "It's more than the sum of it's parts".
> ...


Wing Nut..... There's obviously SOME issue with you, in that the moment we start discussing a $90K car you fly off the hook about how it's all about the leather and the babes.... I'm into cars, you're into image, if I'm reading your post right... So everybody buying a premium car is a sucker, TRICKED BY THE MARKETING DEPARTMENT, it's all smoke and mirrors, it's all image and ego, there's nothing really special or worthy or substantive within a BMW, or Mercedes, or Bentley, or so-on... It's all just a bunch of a$$holes with money trying to get laid... Got it, thanks for the education on cars... I'll send a PM to Jay Leno to let him know he's been suckered, and that his wife won't be happy about him and the babes and the corinthian leather...

When I go to a show and walk up on a million dollar car, I see hardware, precision, craftsmanship and content... What do you see, an emblem and a hood ornament and a rich jerk standing next to it bent upon your being envious and trolling for babes? You really think that premium brands are nothing but selling image to wealthy schmoes?? Do you actually look at the way things are built and assembled and designed, and the raw materials and technologies used?

Yes, I do believe you're lost in a fog of envy... So cuss me out, whatever it takes....


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Ehhhh, Sorry if I'm too harsh... But jeez, I give a nice car credit for being well-engineered and well-executed and you accuse me of being an image-addicted poser... Did a BMW run over your dog when you were a kid??


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

69bossnine said:


> I think it's a bit of a stretch to call a LeMans with a small hood scoop and some subtle trim and taillamp changes "completely different". And none of your statements regarding trim, or lack of trim, are accurate at all...
> 
> The GTO was not the "first Pontiac void of hood chrome", not even close. Furthermore, there's no hood chrome on a 1964 Tempest or Lemans or GTO, they all have the same basic trim up front, on the sides, and in the rear, except for the GTO emblem.. Neither did any of the rest of the Pontiac line have hood chrome in '64. Pontiac did differentiate the GTO a bit more in the grille in later years, but it was an exercise in adding flash, not removing it..
> 
> ...


my bad on the voided trim.
the GTO engine was considered a BB, the 326, even though the same block, was a small block. Argue all you want, but that`s the way it is. yes you could get a 421, but I was told they were dealer installed.... and they`re just a bored and stroked 389. The 389 had diffrent heads with rockers oiled thru the push rods, unlike the 326, higher compression, new camshaft and valve springs. Besides the engine, outer and interior differences, the GTO got different springs, shocks, different axle, different clutch, new clutch fan, dual exhaust system, heavy duty radiator with a Catalina a/c core and tempest 326 upper and lower tanks, among other things. Frame was also introduced in `64 and completely redesigned in `65. `63 tempest was a unibody, wasn`t it?? The GTO was also the first Muscle car, using a BB motor in the smallest car Pontiac had at the time. The GTO was a different car, and it looked it too.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

I think we're getting to a point where somewhere in the middle, is where we'll have to meet...

"Big Block" and "Small Block" often are just semantics, but these families differ in respect to the distance between cylinder bores, but not necessarily in engine displacement since the latter is defined by bore and stroke. For instance, the engine in the current Z06 Corvette displaces 427c.i., but it is still just a bored/stroked Chevy SMALL-block. The Pontiac 389/400/421/428 has a bore-spacing that is less than a big-block Chevy or Ford or Mopar, but more than small-blocks from those same manufacturers. As-such, any Poncho engine builder will tell you, they've always been labeled an "intermediate", but never a "big block", regardless of the fact that it was the biggest engine in the Pontiac arsenal.

Regarding all of the chassis driveline upgrades... Yes, of course, but that's standard-procedure with ANY up-engined performance model of a car... You could make the same argument comparing a baseline 1965 Chevelle 283 to a 1965 Chevelle SS Z16 396/375. They're both Chevelles. When you beef up horsepower, the list of parts everywhere (chassis/driveline) else grows as well to handle it... Nothing new here... When you opted for the 390 hipo package in a 1961 Ford, they tossed the entire Special Service (Police) chassis in with the deal, which was 3-pages of parts. From the outside, all you could see to identify the car was 15" steel wheels... 

The only thing that set the GTO apart, was the installation of an engine formerly reserved for only Pontiac's full-size range, into it's mid-size range... It was a Lemans, with a 389, and the necessary chassis and driveline bits to make it sane and durable, and some emblems and a light-touch of styling cues... 

To puff it up beyond that is to allow emotions and romance to trump reality.

And who said anything about the 1963 Tempest? Regardless, the 1964 Tempest and LeMans and LeMans with the GTO option all sat on the same platform/architecture.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

69bossnine said:


> To puff it up beyond that is to allow emotions and romance to trump reality.


The GTO was the GodFather of all Muscle Cars, and you`re willing to just dismiss it as emotions and romance?


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*Replacement GTO*

Ever since I 1st came across a wingless GTO, I thought it looked like a BMW


:agree


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Rukee said:


> The GTO was the GodFather of all Muscle Cars, and you`re willing to just dismiss it as emotions and romance?


There's nothing "bad" about emotions and romance.... I'm just trying to separate fact from fantasy, that's all...

When we see an old muscle car, it elicites emotions... That's what it's all about. 

But I wasn't talking about emotions, I was making a matter-of-fact analogy that the new GTO followed an awful lot of the original game-plan. The original plan wasn't to make a styling statement, it was just a LeMans that really hauled butt... That was a good thing!!


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

You`re missing the point totally of a "Retro" car. It`s supposed to look like it`s original. It looks more like a Sable then a original GTO.
The first GTOs used Pontiac bodies and Pontiac engines, it wasn`t imported or used someone elses powertrain.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Rukee said:


> You`re missing the point totally of a "Retro" car. It`s supposed to look like it`s original. It looks more like a Sable then a original GTO.
> The first GTOs used Pontiac bodies and Pontiac engines, it wasn`t imported or used someone elses powertrain.



Sure, but let's get REALISTIC instead of playing fantasy football....

In this day and age it takes many hundreds of millions of dollars to develop a unique from-scratch engine. How would you suggest they pay for a "Pontiac" engine for a GTO, even if the styling was a HIT, would never sell more than 60-100 thousand units a year in today's market... To do that would've increased the price-tag of the car into BMW territory... The engine would cost more-per-unit than the car itself..

Same goes for platform, you either share your bits and pieces throughout the GM stream, or the amortized cost of the car exceeds feasibility...

What you wish for up there cannot be done, it would be fiscal suicide... I'd love it too, for a real Pontiac engine to hit the streets again.... But I'd also love for the tree in my front yard to start growing $100 bills in the place of acorns, and I wish it would rain beef jerky...

Even still, the way Pontiac DID choose to go still lost it's fair share of money, due to styling that didn't meet expectations, so I don't profess to have the RIGHT answer... The right answer may be that they were stupid to try in the first place, it wasn't a feasible project given the platforms and budgets available. I'm glad they did though, I love my car.

I'm not saying that the public was wrong for shunning the GTO styling, you've gotta give the public what they want to buy...

I'm just saying that the public didn't really RECOGNIZE that the original GTO styling was just as "derivative" of its more pedestrian siblings..

People rag on the GTO for "looking like a Grand Am".... Well, for whatever it's worth, the original GTO looked mostly like a LeMans... THAT is my only point, to remind people of a little historical perspective.

That said, I think the new G8 may be a superb basis for trying the whole GTO thing again... I sure like the styling, it does NOT look like a Chevy, it does look like a Pontiac, and it'd be cool to drop the new 6.2L Vette engine into a shortened-wheelbase G8, some weight-reduction, give it a 6-speed, get the damn pedals arranged properly, a few tasteful exterior and interior upgrades, and BINGO, you've got the new GTO... (If only it were that easy!!   )


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Dodge did it, Ford did it, Chevy is doing it, heck, even VW did it. And they all look like their predisesors.


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## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

Rukee said:


> You`re missing the point totally of a "Retro" car. It`s supposed to look like it`s original. It looks more like a Sable then a original GTO.
> The first GTOs used Pontiac bodies and Pontiac engines, it wasn`t imported or used someone elses powertrain.


Wow, this thread started about BMW making what appears to be a GTO clone (which I fully agree it is) and not surprised since the Monaro platform is a successful Opel design bred for the same purpose. 

Aside from the snob appeal BMW might put into the price tag, there are other factors as well... higher overhead, material cost, profit projected across lower production numbers, currency exchange rates, (customs and transport fees are a wash when compared to the GTO) along with years of free maintenance and a projected cost of warranty repairs, yada, yada, yada... and then this thread takes a complete left turn by the misguided belief GM was doing a "retro" GTO like the 05 Mustang, defunct T-bird or VW Bug.

The 04 ~ 06 GTO was never intended to be a "retro car". GM wanted to bring the Monaro into the US market for a 3 year sales run and chose Pontiac as the brand label to do that thru, under the GTO name because the concept fit the same one that launched the GTO in 64. The 04 Pulse Red GTO's have a tag stating they are the 40th anniversary GTO. 

You might not like the appearance but if you owned one of "OUR" GTO's you would get it's all in the ride and how it feels going down the road. Not in what bystanders see as we fly past.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Yeah, what he said...

And to regurgitate what I said in an earlier post, I think the GTO would have made a damn homely "retro car" anyhow, the shape and style of the original Goats just wouldn't translate well... Just as a '57 Chevy is a beautiful and iconic car, but a 2008 retro '57 Chevy would look like an abortion... None of the iconic features on a '57 Chev are evolveable.. (if that's a word....)...


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

69bossnine said:


> Wing Nut..... There's obviously SOME issue with you


Pay attention you connoisseur of finely crafted dreams. I have lots of issues.



69bossnine said:


> I'm into cars, you're into image, if I'm reading your post right...


Yes!!!!! That's me in the pool. Do you think I'm pretty? 

The water is Evian. It leaves my blowhole much softer and fresher than mere chlorinated H2O.




69bossnine said:


> So everybody buying a premium car is a sucker, TRICKED BY THE MARKETING DEPARTMENT


Yes! I agree with you completely.



69bossnine said:


> it's all smoke and mirrors, it's all image and ego, there's nothing really special or worthy or substantive within a BMW, or Mercedes, or Bentley, or so-on...


Absolutely, I couldn't have said it better myself!



69bossnine said:


> It's all just a bunch of a$$holes with money trying to get laid...


Right on brother! Thanks for backing me up!



69bossnine said:


> Got it, thanks for the education on cars


You are most welcome. I am here to serve.......Beluga caviar......on fine Lennox china....with a bottle of 1961 Chateau La Mission Haut Brion Pessac Leognan ..... and some Tibetan goat cheese hand churned by the Dali Lama himself. Black tie of course. Nothing off the rack please. I can give you the name of my tailor. And wear your Rolex. $5,000 a plate but quality is not cheap? I know a person of taste and breeding would appreciate such an event.



69bossnine said:


> ... I'll send a PM to Jay Leno to let him know he's been suckered


Oh let the poor fellow wallow in conspicuous consumption. He's gone Hollywood hedonist after all. And he'll soon be out of a job.



69bossnine said:


> and that his wife won't be happy about him and the babes and the corinthian leather...


No, but she'll hang around for the conspicuous consumption and the pool boys with normal chins.





69bossnine said:


> When I go to a show and walk up on a million dollar car, I see hardware, precision, craftsmanship and content...


And the marketing guy for BMcedesrarrighini sees a sucker walking up every minute. Kaaaaaaaaching.

I on the other hand, see a pointless excercise akin to a titanium, diamond crusted, paper clip.


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## AA GTO SP (Nov 11, 2006)

Wing_Nut I agree the two cars look very similar. I also agree there are a ton of simpletons out there with more money than class or brains and a fair amount of them drive BMW's. However, the long and short of it is that there are many, many simpletons out there that drive all different vehicles.
I try to make it a point to judge a person by their personality before I take into account the car they drive. Being that I am a very opinionated person, things don't always work out that way. IE: when I hear someone I graduated high school with last year has a 50k car I tend to look down on his parents. 

Furthermore, there is no way to judge someone's personality while on the road, so I tend to base my judgments on the manner in which someone is driving. 
Though my thoughts usually come out jumbled up and hard to follow; the point I was trying to make was even though many people buy cars for badges and to generate artificial respect, there are many others that are good people and deserve common courtesy. 69bossnine not being one of them. jk.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

AA GTO SP said:


> Wing_Nut I agree the two cars look very similar. I also agree there are a ton of simpletons out there with more money than class or brains and a fair amount of them drive BMW's. However, the long and short of it is that there are many, many simpletons out there that drive all different vehicles.
> I try to make it a point to judge a person by their personality before I take into account the car they drive. Being that I am a very opinionated person, things don't always work out that way. IE: when I hear someone I graduated high school with last year has a 50k car I tend to look down on his parents.
> 
> Furthermore, there is no way to judge someone's personality while on the road, so I tend to base my judgments on the manner in which someone is driving.
> Though my thoughts usually come out jumbled up and hard to follow; the point I was trying to make was even though many people buy cars for badges and to generate artificial respect, there are many others that are good people and deserve common courtesy. 69bossnine not being one of them. jk.


Hey, I was just going way over the top to make a point about real and perceived value. 69Bossnine just happened to volunteer the right line at the right time.

BMW makes a nice car. But, is it worth twice as much as a GTO? Is it worth $76K in absolute terms? Each person must answer that question for themselves.

I just get the giggles when I hear someone virtually repeating the ad copy. "It's the ultimate driving machine". Hilarious stuff. What does that even mean? Ultimate fuel economy? Ultimate safety? Ultimate cargo capacity? Ultimate cushy ride? It's just marketing bull$h!t that leaves the poor slob to fill in the blanks for themselves.....and they do.....every time.

BMW has quality issues like all manufacturers. But they put some good engineering into their products and select their materials well.

But, like any "premium" brand, they also spend a $h!tload of money over a long period of time to carefully shape the image of their product in your mind and get you to differentiate it from their competitor's product without even thinking about the merits of the other guy's product. That's what branding is all about.

Why? So that they can charge prices that net them huge profit margins. That's why. It's the name of the game in the premium product business. Your target market is smaller (fewer sales) so you want to maximize the per unit profits. That's why Toyota spawned Lexus and Honda begat Acura, Nissan...Infiniti, and so on.

Is a Lexus anything more than a tarted up Camry? For a long time they weren't. They were sharing common platforms. But, the suckers lined up to pay an extra 25% so they could have a Lexus parked in the driveway. God bless capitalism and suckers.

Anyway, I'm really not that impressed by BMW as a value proposition. Especially now that Domestic and Asian manufacturers have closed the gap so far in quality and performance. BMW would have to spend quite a few Euro's to brainwash me into paying twice as much for the same performance.

But then, I don't romanticize a chunk of metal. Cars are transportation devices that constantly depreciate. Use em, have fun with em, wear em out, get another one. I look for value and stealth rather than image and flash. Your mileage may vary.


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## koman (Sep 25, 2006)

Rukee said:


> You`re missing the point totally of a "Retro" car. It`s supposed to look like it`s original. It looks more like a Sable then a original GTO.
> The first GTOs used Pontiac bodies and Pontiac engines, it wasn`t imported or used someone elses powertrain.


why not a poncho body (G6 2 door) with a powerful engine, (ls1 or ls2 or 8.1 vortec that's been modified)? only bad thing is converting the car over to rwd. anyhow i like the room under the hood in my "imported confusion mobile". i don't think i will ever buy another car that isn't readily available in both right and left hand drive versions. the room under the hood is even better than what my nova has...


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Wing Nut, you put the "S" in "Stereotype"...

Conspicuous consumption?? Yep, there's nothing conspicuous about running around in a 6.0L grocery-getter that averages 16 mpg....

What I don't get is your apparant disdain and denial of anything with a price-tag, and your refusal to talk substance. You just cop-out with a "bossnine is a victim of brand-programming" b.s. line, based in zero knowledge of me, or my automotive background. It's not a debate, it's a cop-out, I'm trying to talk hardware, and you're just lobbing baseless and smug insults, without a WHIFF of indication that you know anything of which you speak. There's no discourse here, just playground tactics...

Furthermore, driving a GTO, there's millions of people out there who would talk the same exact smack about you, rich enough to fill-up a $32K gas guzzler with $3.30/gallon premium just so you can play the "I'm a low-key-guy-but-do-you-wanna-race?" image. NONE of us NEED these GTO's, they are self-indulgent and conspicuous luxuries that we give to ourselves... And you know what? There's nothing wrong with that, it's what keeps you happy and ambitious and aspiring, lest you dream of living in a commune with Krishnas..

All I'm saying, is I can be anywhere, looking at anything, and I'm thinking substance... My entire family comes from an engineering/machinist/manufacturing background... Tolerances, materials, engineering, workmanship, art, it all means something to me, and it's not knowledge that I picked up reading an ad in Car & Driver. I don't give a crap if it says Kia or Bentley on the hood, I'm gonna check out the car as a car... So if you think I'm the marketer's schmoe, their perfect puppet, you're way off-base. I'm the LAST GUY they're going to sway one way or the other... Their prey is the people who think that cold-forging is a river-raft trip.

We're on a GTO forum, so don't dare say anything good about anything up-market, of Wing Nut will satire you as a "tool, manipulated by the man...", with nothing to really back it up whatsoever other than taking obviously sarcastic quotes, and re-quoting them as support for his argument.


I see Jay Leno as a car guy... Most wealthy collectors are not nearly as informed and involved as he, and I applaud him for it... The guy actually understands the engineering and full-function of his steam cars, and knows how a Stearns sleeve-valve engine operates, and would probably lay-waste to anyone on this forum in automotive trivial pursuit... So he's as rich as a 3rd-world-country, what difference does that make?


Live your life disdaining those things that you view to be "market manipulations", wear your purposefully-generic T-shirts, put out your image of "I'm not being tricked by the man...".. Your just fooling yourself, and speaking poorly of people only by virtue of their W2...


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## macgto7004 (Jul 22, 2007)

Ok, I guess it's time for me to chime in. Being not only a GTO owner, but also a BMW owner, I would like to add a few comments.

I am not going to post individual quotes because there are too many of them, so I will just offer my opinions.

As to the original posted thread, yes, the 6 series BMW does resemble the GTO. It is a fantastic car. $70-90k? Too rich for my wallet. But, there is a market out there for those with the means, because BMW is selling everyone they make. That being said, is it worth $70-90k? That is sort of a judgment call. Those with the means would say yes, otherwise they would be driving something else. Those whose incomes are less than the sticker price? Probably not.
That by no mean infers that they are posers or snobs because they buy a car for the status. This is America, and we are free to spend our money the way we see fit. If the 6 series was not saleable at that price, either the price would come down or BMW would kill it. It's all supply and demand. The roots of capitalism baby!
Any niche vehicle of low volume is going to fetch a premium price. Is a Shelby Mustang worth the +$20k adjusted market price? I don't think so. But, that hasn't kept them from moving off the showroom floor.

Having a BMW, granted it's a plebian 3 series wagon, but, none the less, it is still a BMW, I can offer my ownership expirience. 
As one poster said, there is a vehicle dynamic in a BMW that is hard to reproduce in other makes. They do make travelling at high speed, effortless. Even with a mediocre 170hp 6 cyl, my 3 series moves along like nobody's business. It will cruise comfortably at 90 without even blinking, and still return 27mpg. I have had mine for 7 years and 87k miles. It has been a very reliable, comfortable and relatively affordable means or transpotation to me. Yes, it does have it's faults, but no more than any other car. Hell, I just had my original battery replaced this year!

The buying/service expirience has been top notch. The dealer, in my expirience, has treated me more like family than just a mere customer. Everything from the test drive, to the purchase, to service, has been just a step above most other makes.

As for the price, my 323i Wagon went out the door for $35k. At the time, as is now, wagons have moved upmarket because of the popularity of the ubiquitous SUV. There were not alot of choices out there for wagons. Most makers had dropped their wagon lines in favor of SUV/Minivans. Such was the case for me. I was coming out of an Accord wagon, which I loved, but it was time for something new. By 2000, the Accord wagon was dropped in favor of the Odessy. So, when I looked around, most of what I found was import wagons. The BMW fit the bill. At the time, if I would have looked at a Ford Explorer, for example, comparabley equipped, I would have paid as much or more than $35k. 
So, I pose the question, if one buys a BMW for the same price that you would pay for a Ford, does that make me a poser? Buying for status? 
Uh, the short answer, NO! Hell, a 2008 Cadillac STS-V sell for $77k!!!
I bought a BMW because they are built well, have a good reputation, run forever and have fantastic driving dynamics. I bought it because it is a good car, not because it had a blue and white spinning propeller on the hood. It has given me seven years of reliable service.

Now, for the biggie, the "percieved" controversial GTO styling. 
To that end, I will say what I have always said about the car. If Pontiac had not canned the GTO in 74, (which that model year was a joke, based on the compact Ventura/Nova), how would the GTO have evolved? On a side note, the 74 model GTO is now a highly sought after collectable. 
If you look at the styling direction that Pontiac took through the 80s and 90s, I believe that the GTO would have ended up either as a tarted up Grand Am, or it would have morphed into something quite similar to what we got. A slick jellybean with a big ballsy V8! 
As one poster mentioned, I too have not seen any, and I repeat, any translation of classic GTO styling ques that work as a retro look. 
So the GTO doesn't look like any classic GTO before it. Big F-ing deal! The 89 Grand Prix didn't look like anything before it and that styling direction has lasted nearly 20 years, and it was a perennial Pontiac best seller. The main point about the GTO is that no matter what it looks like, it maintained the spirit of what a GTO was.

The GTOs downfall was the Pontiac marketing. I have this book called GTO, Return of the Legend, where in it, there is a chapter that is an interview with Lynn Myers, then head of Pontiac. To read this interview, you would have thought that this lady's blood ran Torrid Red. But, in truth, she was probably the biggest instrument in the GTOs marketing failure. For all her blustering in the interview, she sure didn't come through where the rubber meets the road. Not marketing the GTO as a muscle car was her doing, and essentially killed the car before it got out of the gate. 

One of the gripes I have heard from the classic GTO aficianados is that the new GTO is not Pontiacs powered. Lame excuse. Let's get out of the 80s and back to reality. Save for the Cadillac Northstar, there hasn't been a GM division to have it's own engine since the early 80s. That's why GM started it's powertain division. 

Retro styling does have it's drawbacks though. Mainly, how do you follow up???
Case in point, the PT Cruiser, the retro darling of the over 50s crowd. Seven years running and it hasn't really changed. Why? Because Chrysler doesn't know how to follow it and still retain it's retro charm. Look at the new Mustang. Retro styling darling of the 21st century. So what happens when the Mustang is due for an update? Do they make it look like a 73? Who knows, but you see, there is a downside.

Some parting thoughts: 
Here are a few quotes about the new GTO that have stuck with me:
"It was about 2 years past it's sell by date, styling wise" - Bob Lutz
"Just tell them to shut up and drive one" - Jim Wangers

Ok, I have said enough. Agree or disagree, that's my opinion, and I'm sticking with it!

Russ


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## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

Russ, 
I guess you are best suited to deliver a trifecta opinion for this thread. You provided us with your BMW experience... so with a sinister hehehe, I gotta ask, which of your 2 goats do you drive more and why?

Red.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Cool, now I'm not pegged as the most long-winded guy on this thread!!!  

Great post, rock solid...

Some here may say that you should have bought a Subaru wagon, but you got rolled by those hypnotic marketing warlocks at BMW...    

They saw ya comin' from a miiiiile away, yep!!! :lol:


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## macgto7004 (Jul 22, 2007)

Red Bearded Goat said:


> Russ,
> I guess you are best suited to deliver a trifecta opinion for this thread. You provided us with your BMW experience... so with a sinister hehehe, I gotta ask, which of your 2 goats do you drive more and why?
> 
> Red.


Honestly, the 04. 
Don't get me wrong, I love both my Goats. I spent 12 yrs restoring my 70 and I love to drive it, but it is a cruiser only. Never sees rain, always in the garage, never out in the winter. A trailer queen, it is not, but it's not a daily driver either. God forbid I have to take it on the highway. I was asked whether I was going to take it to the Nat's this summer. Absolutley not, was my answer. With 4:11 rear gears, an hour on the highway, and I would assuredly be ready to slit my wrists!
The car is powerful, can sit and burn the rubber off the rims without breaking a sweat, and it's a beautiful example of some of Pontiacs most talented stylists, and is a real show stopper. 

What it isn't is a comfortable drivers car. The seats are not very comfortable for a long period of time, the steering wheel is this skinny little affair that is uncomfortable to hold onto, it has no a/c and the 3in exhaust send a firestorm of heat through the firewall. It used to ride and handle like a pig on an ice rink, pitching and squealing around the slightest turns. Thankfully, that has been remedied by last winters installation of full poly underpinnings, front to rear.

Call me a wimp, call me a pu**y, but the 04 can do everything the 70 can do, in plush and relatively quite comfort. A/C, CD, leather, tint, and the best damn seat GM ever made, EVAR! It stops, steers, launches and rides like a real muscle bound touring car and get's 25mpg to boot! 

I am glad I am at a place in my life that I can enjoy having both. But, if the tide were to turn, I would have to put the 70 out to pasture. It would be a tough choice, but I would rather let it go then to let it sit and not have the means to take care of it. It would deserve a better home.

I only pray that it never comes to that. Besides, Jr would never let me hear the end of it, if I had to part with it before he ever had a chance to drive it!

Russ


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## macgto7004 (Jul 22, 2007)

69bossnine said:


> Cool, now I'm not pegged as the most long-winded guy on this thread!!!
> 
> Great post, rock solid...
> 
> ...


Well, buy marketing warlocks you mean customer service to the point of doing every thing but s**king you d**K, then yes, I was rolled! :cool 

I considered a Subie Legacy GT. They were a little less money, just a little. My only problem with the Subies are that when they get up there in mileage, the all start to sound like a sewing machine. :willy: 
I just can't have that.

Russ


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

69bossnine said:


> All I'm saying, is I can be anywhere, looking at anything, and I'm thinking substance...


Dude, get some help, substance abuse is illegal and it'll rot yer brain. It's only a matter of time til yer down at the BMW dealership begging Klaus for some substance.



69bossnine said:


> My entire family comes from an engineering/machinist/manufacturing background... Tolerances, materials, engineering, workmanship, art, it all means something to me, and it's not knowledge that I picked up reading an ad in Car & Driver.


Looking at the pictures is a valid way to learn too.



69bossnine said:


> I don't give a crap if it says Kia or Bentley on the hood, I'm gonna check out the car as a car... So if you think I'm the marketer's schmoe, their perfect puppet, you're way off-base.


I never said perfect.



69bossnine said:


> I'm the LAST GUY they're going to sway one way or the other... Their prey is the people who think that cold-forging is a river-raft trip.


I must admit I am at a loss with this......analogy?



69bossnine said:


> We're on a GTO forum, so don't dare say anything good about anything up-market, of Wing Nut will satire you as a "tool, manipulated by the man...".


Right On. I da Police of vehicular correctness! Now up against the Ferrari and spread em.


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## JohnC (Jul 12, 2007)

When you purchase a BMW you get service from a BMW dealer. Perhaps that is worth the alternative (with some exceptions) of having mostly untrained GM trained kids servicing your car that don't give a sh*T.


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## GTJimbO (Apr 28, 2006)

b_a_betterperson said:


> Pontiac definitely blew it with the GTO big time. I was at a Pontiac Motorsports event at Infineon Raceway this summer and had a chance to gab with some of their marketing people. They justified their incorrect selling of the GTO as a muscle car by saying "people who buy BMWs simply aren't going to be interested in a domestic car because they want the name."
> 
> To me, that's way wrong. First of all, the Pontiac nameplate, at the time the GTO came out, didn't stand for anything. A bunch of Grand Ams, Grand Prixs, Azteks, Sunfires, etc. No performance heritage there.
> 
> ...



Precisely how I've viewed the opportunity Pontiac has missed. 

BTW, I'm one of the few European Import buyers Ponti did manage to conquer. My alternative choices at the time of purchase, coming from Saab (The "Viggen" model had expired and there were no replacements -- go figure: Saab is now owned by GM) were Audi's RS4 (420hp, but $72k), BMW M3, or Porsche. Knowing what the Goat is/was by following the Aussie V8 Supercar series when Speed Channel used to televise it, the GTO's price/performance equation was it for me. Pontiac had all the right things align and they squandered the opportunity.

G8's a great car, but with 4 doors, I have my doubts. I hope to be proven wrong. Only time will tell.

Jim Miller (President WASSAAB, Washington DC Saab Owners Club)
'06 M6 PBM, 18", JHP gauge pack and bluetooth. 

'02 Saab 9-5 Aero Wagon, Forge turbo bypass valve, Remus cat-back, MP Performance downpipe

'93 Saab 900 Turbo Commemorative, 3.0 Bar FPR, Forge, custom equal length headers, custom split downpipe, custom suspension, more....

'91 Saab 900 Turbo Special Edition Convertible


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

69bossnine said:


> Conspicuous consumption?? Yep, there's nothing conspicuous about running around in a 6.0L grocery-getter that averages 16 mpg....


My 05 averaged about 23 MPG in a 45 mile one way commute heavily biased towards highway miles. Try running in a higher gear for better mileage. 3rd gear is not the best choice for the highway.



69bossnine said:


> What I don't get is your apparant disdain and denial of anything with a price-tag, and your refusal to talk substance.


Ahhh...by substance you mean this.


69bossnine said:


> BMW's have a knack for making 120 mph feel like 55 mph.... My Goat is good at-speed as well, but there's something about going fast in a Bimmer that's spooky-good, makes you wonder "how come GM's engineers can't achieve this?".....


Or this......


69bossnine said:


> A guy might buy a Ferrari just for the looks and status, but that doesn't take ANYTHING away from the Ferrari as a car. And there are folks out there who buy cars like that for the good reasons, engineering, materials, craftsmanship, and art... But that gets lost in the shuffle when class-envy clouds folks' vision.....


Or this.....


69bossnine said:


> I've been driving raw-ish tire-spinning American V8's my entire life, I always am amazed when I'm driving a BMW by how "serene" and effortless they are at very high speeds.....


Or this.....


69bossnine said:


> Furthermore, driving a GTO, there's millions of people out there who would talk the same exact smack about you, rich enough to fill-up a $32K gas guzzler with $3.30/gallon premium just so you can play the "I'm a low-key-guy-but-do-you-wanna-race?" image.


Somehow this seems more like flowery opinion than substantive arguments to me.

But, since you can't stop thinking about substance, let me indulge your addiction for a moment.

I took exception to the 650i at $76K when a reasonable fascimile (GTO) was available at less than half the cost. I would wager that most here would accept that the GTO had say 90% of the Beamer's performance at roughly 50% of the price. Styling and content wise the GTO may fall to say 65% of the Beamers godliness.

Show me a two door coupe that can seat 4 adults, has a 400HP V8, handles reasonably well, with reasonable styling and total cost of ownership for half the price of a 2005 GTO and I'll accept your argument that the GTO is as much a waste of money as the Beamer.

Oh, and please let me know where I can find this car.

And finally, your assertion that someone would buy a Pontiac as a status symbol is hilarious. I would have paid to have the Pontiac name removed from the car. Unfortunately, there was no delete option.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

I give up Wing Nut... It's long beyond whether or not a 6-series is worth the sum of its parts. So it might be $10K or $20K overpriced, whoop-die-do... So is beer... or is your fridge stocked with cans of Old Milwaukee, in your quest to be cheapest, most righteous, and then hide the can in a plain black coozy so you can also be the most generic.. 

If you insist upon being some forum champion, here's your plastic trophy... arty: 




Wing_Nut said:


> My 05 averaged about 23 MPG in a 45 mile one way commute heavily biased towards highway miles. Try running in a higher gear for better mileage. 3rd gear is not the best choice for the highway.


So you drive highway miles to work. Thanks for more pointless points... And please, use that last comment as a prompt to drag 50 of my pointless points forward into another smug and sarcastic post, and you'll get a cool nylon ribbon to go with your trophy...

For roughly $10 grand, we can all go out and pick up a clean mid-70's A or G body that some granny drove once a week 3 miles to church, drop in a 425 h.p. 454 HO crate motor, A few hundred bucks in KYB's and sway bars, a stereo, and there ya' go...

If you're going to be Captain Conservative, then do it right, own a car that you don't need a diagnostic tool to fix, and that doesn't depreciate.

In any case, enjoy eating life from the $1 menu at Mickey-D's.. Burgers are just meat and 2 pieces of bread, the rest is just marketing...


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## koman (Sep 25, 2006)

i get 21.2 mpg around town and that's what my last tank of gas has done, nothing but around town 5 mile commutes. best i have seen was 27.6 mpg over a 190 mile trip. i'll be happy to post the picture of the gas gauge if you'd like. i don't feel the m3 could have done this nor with as nice of an aftermarket as the poncho. and the aftermarket for the m6 is probably far worse than that of the m3. nice joistling match y'all got going on :lol:


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Jeez..... You guys must keep a block of wook under your gas pedal to get that mileage....

15-16 mpg is my average, I must have more spirited driving habits...


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

69bossnine said:


> Jeez..... You guys must keep a block of wook under your gas pedal to get that mileage....
> 
> 15-16 mpg is my average, I must have more spirited driving habits...


Nah, we're all just stupid a$$holes. Why change your tone now? You are the one true light. 

Other people seem to know how to get reasonable mileage out of the GTO. We're very sorry about it though.

I'm sorry as well that my commute was mostly highway. I was not aware that it was wrong. I was concerned with getting to work. I never stopped to think that it didn't represent the way you drive.

Now about this substance......we're still waiting. 

All I've heard from you so far is a great steaming pile of 









Got anything besides the lame opinions put in your head by ad agencies? 

Any original thoughts rattling around that special olympics head of yours?

Here's your award............

*For substance of thought and debate worthy of an internet forum.... I award you this medal*


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

Gratuitous post............

Whooo hooo we got this thing to 50 posts. It was the substance that lifted us over the top.


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## koman (Sep 25, 2006)

69bossnine said:


> Jeez..... You guys must keep a block of wook under your gas pedal to get that mileage....
> 
> 15-16 mpg is my average, I must have more spirited driving habits...


 i'm pretty hard on it at every redlight. when i drove in 4th around town i got basically the same thing...19.1 mpg. maybe you are carrying lead with you or you're using inferior gasoline? i think the better gas mileage for me came from some fuel that was 15% ethanol. strange but it's true.:cheers


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

My Goat hovers around 16mpg average... I guess I'm heavier-footed, or I dropped a shop rag in my CAI during install... I never said a peep about who's right, wrong, or otherwise... Just suggested that you might be driving more conservatively than me, i.e. mileage doesn't lie, and who really cares who's mileage champ anyhow?...

You are an utterly sensitive soul, Koman didn't search the internet for a picture of cow-poop shaped like a bottle just over gas mileage differences... 

Are you going to fly off the handle if I say I run 32 psi in my tires??

Is every future post of mine going to receive a neurotic Wing-Nut response??

You talk big-smack for a forum jockey.... Enjoy your anonymity, and your pity-party...


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

It lives............



69bossnine said:


> You are an utterly sensitive soul, Koman didn't search the internet for a picture of cow-poop shaped like a bottle just over gas mileage differences...


Of course Koman wasn't treated to your special sensitivity in response to a simple post about experience with the GTO's fuel efficiency in a mostly highway commute.



69bossnine said:


> So you drive highway miles to work. Thanks for more pointless points... And please, use that last comment as a prompt to drag 50 of my pointless points forward into another smug and sarcastic post, and you'll get a cool nylon ribbon to go with your trophy......


Is this helping your selective memory problem you paragon of virtuous posting? I told you that substance abuse would take its toll!



69bossnine said:


> Are you going to fly off the handle if I say I run 32 psi in my tires??


No, but I will upgrade your special award to Gold for being stooopid enough to come back for more.












69bossnine said:


> Is every future post of mine going to receive a neurotic Wing-Nut response??


No, sorry......you'll have to keep earning them.



69bossnine said:


> You talk big-smack for a forum jockey.


Well thank you. And you seem to be an expert on smack/substance abuse! 



69bossnine said:


> Enjoy your anonymity, and your pity-party.


Whoa.......navigational error........lost me again ace! Try putting away the substance before typing.


By the way, did you earn the 69 moniker in prison? And the Boss 9? Let's see, I'm thinkin that's the big tatooed guy that runs cell block 9.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Wing_Nut said:


> By the way, did you earn the 69 moniker in prison? And the Boss 9? Let's see, I'm thinkin that's the big tatooed guy that runs cell block 9.


Aspiring comedian?.... Don't quit your day job...

Your forum-handle contains a singular nut..... But I'll leave that for some 15-year-old-GTO-aspiring-pimple-popper to exploit further....


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## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

Wing_Nut said:


> It lives............
> I will upgrade your special award to Gold for being stooopid enough to come back for more.





69bossnine said:


> Aspiring comedian?.... Don't quit your day job...


Somebody pass me the popcorn...


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## AA GTO SP (Nov 11, 2006)

Red Bearded Goat said:


> Somebody pass me the popcorn...


I just got cheese pretzels and a large Dr. Pepper too. FREE REFILLS!


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## Habuzaki (Feb 13, 2006)

I just sat down and read this entire thread for the first time. 69bossnine, I enjoyed and benefited from your educated posts. Wingnut, you're a sarcastic and funny guy, but, you _*are *_a nut...


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

Habuzaki said:


> I just sat down and read this entire thread for the first time. 69bossnine, I enjoyed and benefited from your educated posts. Wingnut, you're a sarcastic and funny guy, but, you _*are *_a nut...


Thank you for your considered opinion. And , I don't mean to be unkind but.....after all.....we don't pay you Marines for your thoughts.

I mean you're closely related to squids after all. 

Fifty nine.

Eight. Seven.


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## Elated FG (Aug 27, 2006)

Wow, some interesting replies for sure...and hilarious comparison to the BMW 650. Never would have seen it myself unless someone posted the pic!

I've been a big lurker, but here's my 2 cents on the topic...

For the longest time I would say that I am a lover of all brands, but when it comes down to it, my deepest passion is for exotics. Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, Aston, Porsche, etc.

Now of course I've had a thing for all sorts of domestic muscle over the years, OLD and NEW. Vettes, Vipers, old Chargers, GTOs, etc.

Being a car guy I've liked the Jap cars too, esp. in the '90s when you had all of the more iconic ones dominating sales, like the 300ZX, Supra, 3000GT, RX-7, MR2, NSX, etc. 

So my car love is all over the place, and through the good fortune of knowing a lot of cool people I have been privileged to drive all sorts of cars, exotics included. 

And here's where I'm going with this....the TWO most underrated cars I've driven & owned (respectively) are the Ford GT and the Pontiac GTO!

We have all been familiar with the Ford GT, but where does it rank on your list of high end supercars to own? Whatever it is, it should be ranked higher! It is an amazing car to drive...raw, loud, and fast as hell....more fun point to point than most of the Ferraris, Lamborghinis out there...and the proof was in the drive! This includes the F430, Gallardo, Vanquish, 911 Turbo,etc. It's faster than similar raw cars (like older Diablos, Countachs, 512 TRs), and much rawer than most anything under $400k. I'm not saying it's the best car ever made or anything, but damn is it memorable and special and perhaps the best street sports car ever made in the USA. To make it feel irrelevant takes a very special car indeed!

As for the GTO, I have to admit I should be ashamed of myself. All this auto knowledge I've had, and yet when it came down to buying a new car last year, it was nowhere on my radar. What was on my radar was the 350Z, G35, perhaps the Mustang, etc. No GTO.

Sure I knew what it was. A 350 hp then 400 hp big V8 muscle car. The styling wasn't amazing but it wasn't bad either. It was cool. But my impressions having never seen the interior, driven, etc. was that this was a 400 hp car with the interior of a Grand Am (no offense to those guys!), and the ride and suspension refinement that was nothing special. 

Now I drove the G35, liked it and was set on it. But my friend Eddie who was the only guy living in NYC that matched me for car enthusiasm was fortunate enough to have test driven one (an auto), and was a big fan of the car. He forced me to drive it, and when I did, the rest was history. 

And before I drove it, I looked it up online. Saw some pics...was impressed. It was all meant to be. I might be biased, but I really think the GTO is a kick ass car in so many ways more so than a lot of sh*** costing much more. And one with some Pedders upgrades could be even higher...

So what's the point of this story is that the Pontiac image first & foremost needs a lot of work. I think it's hard to sell what I think is an upscale car in the GTO & G8 in the USA as a Pontiac. To the person who recommended bringing Holden here, I agree. 

I wasn't looking to buy a Ferrari last year, but in the G35/350Z/etc. segment the GTO should have instantly been considered. Looking back it's a no brainer, but it's hard to get to even the REAL car guys with this thing UNTIL they freakin EXPERIENCE IT!

Everyone who has ridden in this car has had the laughter and smiles typical of being THROWN AROUND, hearing the big V8 TORQUE them down the road. Maybe 3 out of 30 people weren't so smitten, but to me that's the hater in them. 

So, I think our GTO should have been called the G8 and marketed as this "rwd monster from austraulia". I knew all along the GTO was a RWD using this platform, but was CONVINCED only the motor was borrowed, and interior and other things traditional Pontiac. Didn't know it was merely a LHD Holden with a gas tank change and some minor exterior restyling, lol!

I don't claim to be the best in auto enthusiasm and knowledge, but when I'm ignorant of your quality product, YOU have a problem. 

Long post, I'm sorry...but the moral of the story is that marketing sadly is the #1 force to sell a car in the US, and maybe the other countries as well. 

You can't dismiss it you just have to find a way around it. I say stay away from ever using a GTO name until you have a GTO looka like (and others have said this is very hard to do). This G8 thing is fine...march on.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

Geez, finally! One honest person steps out of the shadows and admits that marketing (or lack thereof) plays a significant role in "branding" and influence on consumer spending.

GM desparately needs to take marketing lessons from BMW and apply it to some serious brand repair or creation (in the case of Holden). 

They don't necessarily need any lessons in automotive technology or design.

For you savvy consumers who need to rationalize spending twice as much for "the great feeling" or "the superior design" to make yourself feel better about the obscene profit you just gave to your BMW dealer. Well, there is probably no hope. You'll never look in the mirror and see a sucker. It's human nature.

As for me, I'll continue to focus on performance, content, and value at a price point. Things of true substance.

By those measures, GM did amazingly well with the GTO and managed to hide it from the public for three years.

BMW in contrast has created much the same thing but has fools tripping over each other for the opportunity to part with twice as much cash.

Hats off to BMW.

Also, I acknowledge that for thirty years, GM earned ,their position as the joke of the auto industry. There are too many examples of GM stupidity to recount here. They worked amazingly hard to trash their brands and their efforts were rewarded by the consumer.

But, GM is in a bit of a renaissance at the moment. Give them some credit for extracting their collective heads from their butts.


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## ELP_JC (Jan 9, 2007)

As a previous owner of expensive cars (including BMWs), and a current owner of an '06 GTO, I have some credibility on the issue. 
FIrst of all, you have to be out of your mind if you think the GTO is comparable to the 6 series. An SRT4 is almost as fast as the BMW, but doesn't make it a competitor.
The GTO is a great performance for the buck, no question about that, but it's ages behind the BMW. And it's not about marketing at all. It's simply a much better car. Two and a half times better? Maybe not, but much better yes. 

It's like saying a timex is the same thing as a Rolex because both give you the time. In a way yes, but you're missing the point. 
Being a simple person who doesn't give a rat's a$$ what people think of me by what I drive, I gave up on expensive cars becase I don't justify them anymore. 
Bought the GTO thinking it could 'substitute' them because of its performance, but I'm so disappointed at it in general, that I'm selling it and will buy a Civic coupe. I much better have a refined 4 banger than a crude performance car, but that's just me. I still have a Cobra and motorcycles for speed thrills, but I've had it with the tons of squeaks, rattles, vibrations, etc. 

If I was a performance junkie, I'd keep it, because as I said it's the best performance bang for the buck, but when you smoke a BMW or other expensive car, don't feel you have the better car, because you don't. Drive one and you'll understand. Don't be envious of the people who can afford them. But yes, the great majority of such owners have such cars as a 'status symbol' indeed; they can't really be justified any other way IMO. Later.
JC


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## flipgto (Jul 28, 2007)

id take that over my gto any day...yes, an m6 is on a different level, but yeah... anyway, my stepdad's 323i handles so much better than my gto does and i would assume that a higher end bmw (like a 6 series) would handle even better


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

OMFG.........Here we go again. Another infected zombie.



ELP_JC said:


> As a previous owner of expensive cars (including BMWs), and a current owner of an '06 GTO, I have some credibility on the issue.


Where did you choose to put your money after your purported experience with said expensive cars? That's where your credibility lies!



ELP_JC said:


> FIrst of all, you have to be out of your mind if you think the GTO is comparable to the 6 series.


I'm happy to see another person who agrees that the GTO is a superior value.



ELP_JC said:


> An SRT4 is almost as fast as the BMW, but doesn't make it a competitor.


Who mentioned the SRT4? But thanks for an example of another fine performance value. Crude but fast as hell for little money.



ELP_JC said:


> The GTO is a great performance for the buck, no question about that, but it's ages behind the BMW. And it's not about marketing at all. It's simply a much better car. Two and a half times better? Maybe not, but much better yes.


Please explain in what way a 650i is better than a GTO. You can leave out the "ultimate driving machine" bull$h!t and stick to facts. "Breathtaking at high speeds" and "it's just better" won't cut it ace. Leave the sugar in the sugar bowl and slap some meat on your argument.



ELP_JC said:


> It's like saying a timex is the same thing as a Rolex because both give you the time. In a way yes, but you're missing the point.


Sorry, but you've forced me to resurrect this.









OMFG this is too easy. You are an excellent straight man. Rolex is exactly my point. :rofl:

A Rolex is a mechanical technology from the past wrapped in a garish and ostentatious package for the newly wealthy to impress each other. The only way to justify a Rolex is as a piece of jewelry which, by it's very definition is fluff. All show.....no go.

Personally, my choice is Casio. But a Timex Ironman is just as good. Cheap incredibly tough, reliable, accurate, waterproof to 100 meters, tons of functionality. If I lose it, I don't care. If it breaks, I get a new one. If I see one I like better, I get a new one.

I was once surprised to notice that a colleague who owns a Falcon 50 and drives a Bentley to work was sporting a Timex Ironman complete with yellow plastic trim. After that I sort of took notice periodically and I've never seen him wear another watch. It seems to meet the requirements of a timepiece for him just fine.



ELP_JC said:


> Being a simple person who doesn't give a rat's a$$ what people think of me by what I drive, I gave up on expensive cars becase I don't justify them anymore.


Yes, I can see that.



ELP_JC said:


> Bought the GTO thinking it could 'substitute' them because of its performance, but I'm so disappointed at it in general, that I'm selling it and will buy a Civic coupe. I much better have a refined 4 banger than a crude performance car, but that's just me. I still have a Cobra and motorcycles for speed thrills, but I've had it with the tons of squeaks, rattles, vibrations, etc.


Dizzy1 is that you?



ELP_JC said:


> If I was a performance junkie, I'd keep it, because as I said it's the best performance bang for the buck, but when you smoke a BMW or other expensive car, don't feel you have the better car, because you don't. Drive one and you'll understand.


I haven't driven the 650i in particular. There may be something magical about it but I sincerely doubt that is the case. No other BMW I've driven has had that magic.



ELP_JC said:


> Don't be envious of the people who can afford them.


Not envious.....amused.....by the people desperately denying any of that price premium is being paid to impress the neighbors.



ELP_JC said:


> But yes, the great majority of such owners have such cars as a 'status symbol' indeed; they can't really be justified any other way IMO. Later.
> JC


Thank you, even though this final admission is a bit inconsistent with your prior unsupported assertions of Rolex/BMW inherent superiority .


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

flipgto said:


> id take that over my gto any day...yes, an m6 is on a different level, but yeah... anyway, my stepdad's 323i handles so much better than my gto does and i would assume that a higher end bmw (like a 6 series) would handle even better


Is this forum open to children? Moderators?

Anyway, your stepdad's 323i is about 500lbs lighter than a GTO while the 650i is about 100lbs heavier. Don't be so sure that more dollars will result in proportionally better handling. The 650i is a porker just like the GTO with less power and torque. They are both grand touring cars. Not track champs. But we've already had this discussion a couple of weeks ago. (see GTO vs Mustang vs Honda S2000)

And yes the 650i is on a diferent price level than a GTO. No argument there.

And by the way, that (red, pink, purple?) color is positively gay! Must come with a CD that gives the new owner lisping lessons while driving.


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## AA GTO SP (Nov 11, 2006)

*jaw drops* 
Can't wait to read the responses to that bombshell.


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## flipgto (Jul 28, 2007)

just in case you did not notice, that is a bmw M6 with a 500hp v10. i just googled for a picture of the m6, so that color made no difference to me. i am not saying that our cars are inferior to BMWs, i am just stating my opinion that i would give up my car for an m6 if given the chance. its horrible that you resort to calling me a child because i mention my stepdad


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

flipgto said:


> just in case you did not notice, that is a bmw M6 with a 500hp v10. i just googled for a picture of the m6, so that color made no difference to me. i am not saying that our cars are inferior to BMWs, i am just stating my opinion that i would give up my car for an m6 if given the chance. its horrible that you resort to calling me a child because i mention my stepdad


Oh crap what's that buzzing noise?

Flies on the Absolut again! 

I called you a child because of your wanton destruction of the english language due to your uh.....typing skills. But, driving step daddy's car will work as well.

Now back to your education.

Thank you for bringing said M6 to my attention. OK, let's examine the BMW M6 that lists for $99,375 plus a $775 destination charge. We'll call it $100K for the sake of simplicity? For that, step daddy gets a car that weighs in at 3,900 lbs or about 200lbs more than a porky GTO. And, according to the BMW website, said **** car will do 0-60 in 4.5 seconds or about 0.2 seconds faster than a GTO at one third the price. 500 HP to the GTO's 400. 383 Ft/lbs to the GTO's 400. 12/18 MPG for the M6 vs 14/19 for the GTO (adjusted for 2008 standards). Top speed for the M6, 155 vs 158 for the GTO.

That's your argument? My God man, don't come to a gunfight with yer d!ck in yer hand.

I hope yer a redhead cause you just got beaten like a redheaded stepchild!


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

AA GTO SP said:


> *jaw drops*
> Can't wait to read the responses to that bombshell.


C'mon jump in. The water's fine. The fish are biting.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

Gratuitous post #2. 

We've reached 70!arty:


Do I hear 71? Or, do all of you groupthink lemmings driven by BMW marketing towards the cliff of fiscal stupidity simply surrender?










I'm hearing wooo wooo wooo wooo wooo! Nyuck nyuck nyuck!


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

Where the hell is LOWET?


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## koman (Sep 25, 2006)

Wing_Nut said:


> Where the hell is LOWET?





LOWET said:


> I just don't like the style. I hate the retro look with modern components. I jst don't think they will sell. I think I will save some cash and get a AUDI R8arty:


he's out buying his R8.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

koman said:


> he's out buying his R8.


Speaking of the R8, what the hell is wrong with the Teutonic Twits these days? I was in Manhattan this past Wednesday and was walking down Park Ave near Grand Central where an Audi dealer has set up shop. There, in the front of the store, so that passers by could oooh and ahhhh, was the butt ugliest supercar I've ever seen. 

It was a white R8 with a metallic panel that looked to be stainless steel maybe 18 inches wide from the rocker panel to the roof right behind the door. It was just goofy looking. Picture a wide vertical stainless steel stripe behind the door running the entire height of the car. It really ruined otherwise nice lines and proportions.

Out of curiosity, I just looked at the R8 on the Audi website. They are actually marketing the ugly side stripe thingy.:rofl: They call it a "sideblade":lol:. There are 4 body colors that can apparently be matched with 3 ugly vertical stripes er.....sideblade colors. Hilarious.

As I walked on, I passed a Ferrari/Maserati dealer on the corner of Park & 55th. The Italians in contrast, create rolling art. They had an F430 coupe and a 599 GTB Fiorano, both in red, on display along with two dark blue Maserati's. All four cars sported clean simple lines and beautiful proportions along with beautiful paint. Park any one of these next to the Audi and it would just be downright embarrassing for the Germans. Hell, park a Z06 next to the Audi and the same embarrassment would ensue. IMHO.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

The R8 is indeed a homely SOB...

The M6 V10 redlines at 8,250 rpm, F1 racing technology for the street... Again, whether or not it's worth the price of admission is purely up to the fellow scratching the check, hopefully confident enough in himself to not give a rat's hind-quarters how he'll be "judged" by his choice of toy...

Top speed on the M-cars is computer-limited, so there's nothing conclusive to be gleaned from top-speed comparison... Don't see the point... You can google and find European guys with a death-wish deactivating the factory limiter and running over 190mph in those cars.... Which is well-beyond what the tires are rated for, given the weight of the machine, which is one of the primary reasons speed is limited in heavier performance cars...

I think we all agree that the GTO is a super performance value, and overall value.... 

Life's too short to make every purchase based on "value" though, and you can argue that there's a value to your happiness... Sometimes paying more for something that makes you happier, for whatever personal reasons you've got, is the best value of all, and the best-spent cash... 

If I sound like a marketer, whatever...

I also agree with the previous poster on the Ford GT... Iconic car, incredible out on the highway, rolling art, beautifully built... Instant classics.... And it's highly unlikely that Ford will ever pull out of its shell and stick out its neck to do another entirely-emotion-driven project like that again. They've got alot of Taurus's and F-Series and Focii to sell before they can play in the playground again. The GT was a miracle that it ever made it out...


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## midiman1962 (May 13, 2007)

It's space shuttle vs ******. but you still get to the moon.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

*Peace Love & Harmony Baby!*​ 
Hey man.......sorry I was late logging in tonight. Like, I spent the whole day down at our local BMW dealership protesting the overpriced fascist symbols of capitalist indulgence.

The fascists called the pigs and the oinkers made a huge deal of my hemp shirt. Anyway man, my lawyer was high and couldn't find his cell phone. Or, maybe I was dialing the wrong number.

Damn! I got the munchies real bad!

Anyway, what was I saying? :confused Oh yeah.........

Hey man......sorry I was late logging in tonight. Like, I spent the whole day down at our local BMW dealership protesting the overpriced fascist symbols of capitalist indulgence.

Damn! I got the munchies real bad!

I gotta find my bong! 

Do you guy's know the number for pizza delivery? :confused

Whoaaa! My.....hand......looks......like......................butterflies! Cool.


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## AA GTO SP (Nov 11, 2006)

I'm not entirely sure, but I think Wing_nut may have finally lost it and started talking to himself. Either way, I don't see johnnytuinals being on here much longer.
If it's a different person; johnny, let me be the first on the forum to tell you how much of a tool you really are.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

This thread has finally skipped the rails, and the train is piled up in a smoldering heap, with the remaining survivors stumbling around in a sub-conscious daze, inhaling a hallucinogenic cocktail of smoke from the burning assorted chemical cars...

I feel like Bill Murray in Caddyshack after he set off the explosives.... I think I'll nonchalantly turn-tail, and run in some random serpantine direction away from this... :seeya:


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Johnnytuinal / Johnnytuinals has been given the death sentence for violating user registration rules.

Reminder: Only one user registration per person.


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## midiman1962 (May 13, 2007)

stop eating plastic stuff!!


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## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

midiman1962 said:


> stop eating plastic stuff!!


and stay away from the LSD laced sugar cubes....

Can we get 100?


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Red Bearded Goat said:


> and stay away from the LSD laced sugar cubes....
> 
> Can we get 100?


100 posts?? No problem.....

I traded my '06 GTO in yesterday on a Ferrari Testarossa replica built on a Pontiac Fiero chassis.... It looks just like the real thing, I swear, and MAN do I get the "looks" cruising down the road!!... 

Pull up to a club, rockin' my designer clothes that I bought at a NYC street market, and the ladies can't keep their hands off me...


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

69bossnine said:


> This thread has finally skipped the rails, and the train is piled up in a smoldering heap


*This train wreck?*


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

69bossnine said:


> This thread has finally skipped the rails, and the train is piled up in a smoldering heap


*Or This One?*


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

69bossnine said:


> This thread has finally skipped the rails, and the train is piled up in a smoldering heap


*Or A Plain, Old Fashioned Train Wreck?*


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

69bossnine said:


> This thread has finally skipped the rails, and the train is piled up in a smoldering heap


*Or Maybe This Famous Chapter In The History Of The New GTO*


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

ROFL Wing_Nut.... how about this train wreck


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

AA GTO SP said:


> I'm not entirely sure, but I think Wing_nut may have finally lost it and started talking to himself. Either way, I don't see johnnytuinals being on here much longer.
> If it's a different person; johnny, let me be the first on the forum to tell you how much of a tool you really are.


Did I miss something? Who is johnnytuinals?



> Johnnytuinal / Johnnytuinals has been given the death sentence for violating user registration rules.


Death sentence? Don't tell me we've lost another Big Mike, Dizzy1, oh God...who was the one who claimed his kid hijacked his keyboard and typed all the dumb $h!t?

I missed it? Damn! Gotta cut back on the orange sunshine.....more lucid time.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Wing_Nut said:


> Did I miss something? Who is johnnytuinals?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Johnnytuinal was a wisenheimer Ford guy who only came in here to cause problems and argue with others. He got off on his "knowledge of cars" and embellishments. He was tolerated, but he crossed the line when he registered under another user ID. He was in a category all by himself. He is now wearing cement shoes at the bottom of Laketuinal.


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## AA GTO SP (Nov 11, 2006)

haha. Dizzy was funny though.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

AA GTO SP said:


> haha. Dizzy was funny though.


Yeah, Dizzy was amusing as he attempted to create his own legend through schizophrenic posting under multiple identities. Pathetic, but not terribly annoying.

Big Mike on the other hand, was freaking annoying to the point that you had to wonder about the guy's life. He apparently spent 24X7 on the forum, posted responses to anything almost immediately, would hijack every thread, and eventually turned every discussion to porn. Mikey was likely a guy with no friends, no career, no hobbies, and as a consequence, way too much time on his hands. In short, he was a disaster waiting to happen. I think everyone was glad when the jumpmasters planted a boot in Mikey's severely disturbed a$$ and gave him a one way express ride to the drop zone.

Johnytuinals could not possibly have held a candle to Big Mike. He sounds like a run of the mill troll.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

*And now to get this thread back on track*

OK, here's the one true genetic descendant of the GTO. 

It may be a third cousin twice removed but this comes from the same family tree the GTO is descended from. It's a concept but, based on a new for 2008 production platform and, apparently headed for production. The sedan version will definitely debut for 2008. And, given it's parentage, if it's born in der fatherland, there's a decent chance we'll see a variant here. The concept was packing a 300HP turbo 2.8L V6 and electronic 4WD. The rear seats can fold to create a flat load floor almost 6 ft long and 36 cu ft of cargo space. One can only hope that it will see the light of day. 

And, it will almost certainly be priced well below BMW 650i's and Audi A5's. Now that would be value!































Anybody know what it is? Opinions?


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

Wing_Nut said:


> OK, here's the one true genetic descendant of the GTO.
> 
> It may be a third cousin twice removed but this comes from the same family tree the GTO is descended from. It's a concept but, based on a new for 2008 production platform and, apparently headed for production. The sedan version will definitely debut for 2008. And, given it's parentage, if it's born in der fatherland, there's a decent chance we'll see a variant here. The concept was packing a 300HP turbo 2.8L V6 and electronic 4WD. The rear seats can fold to create a flat load floor almost 6 ft long and 36 cu ft of cargo space. One can only hope that it will see the light of day.
> 
> ...


Well I can see why you said it could be a cousin of the GTO because it's an Opel, more specific the GTC Concept.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

And for some reason I can't edit my post. GTC stands for Gran Turismo Coupe.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

gm4life said:


> Well I can see why you said it could be a cousin of the GTO because it's an Opel, more specific the GTC Concept.


Excellent! Yes, it's derived from the Opel Vectra which debuts as a 2008 sedan. And a Grand Tourismo is exactly what the GTO has always been. It's not much of a stretch to see it being produced as a coupe. And....that means it might land on our shores as a Saturn in GM's global product plan. Or, would it make a great next generation GTO with the Pointiack badge on it? A little upscale in price. A little credibility for the "performance" brand at GM.

The styling is nice and the cargo area is a competitive advantage for a performance coupe. I wonder........is there room for an LS2 under the hood?


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

Knowing GM how they like to share platforms, if it uses the Zeta platform you bet an LS-something can fit between the finders.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

gm4life said:


> Knowing GM how they like to share platforms, if it uses the Zeta platform you bet an LS-something can fit between the finders.


It's built on the Epsilon 2 platform. In Europe, the sedan gets 4 bangers, V6's, and diesels. Not sure if Epsilon has room for a V8.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

Wing_Nut said:


> It's built on the Epsilon 2 platform. In Europe, the sedan gets 4 bangers, V6's, and diesels. Not sure if Epsilon has room for a V8.


I see, it looks to be slim Wing, that is an FWD and AWD capable platform. Because Epsilon platform is used by the G6, Saab cars, the Epsilon II looks to be a larger version of the Epsilon.


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## pontiac65 (Dec 17, 2007)

DRIVE a OLD goat and youll see what the new one is lacking 
PONCHO TORQUE.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

pontiac65 said:


> DRIVE a OLD goat and youll see what the new one is lacking
> PONCHO TORQUE.



Huh???? Maybe the LS1 feels soggy in the low-lands, but my LS2 is as torquey and strong as any old 389 or 400 I've ever driven... Don't mistake old-school 4-speed tranny and rear-diff gearing for engine torque, if you put that kinda gearing in an '06 Goat it'd feel just as snappy down low..

My '67 is the H.O. (360hp) version of the venerable 400, as yes, it's nice and fat and smooth on the bottom... But so's my LS2. In many ways, I find the driving experience of my '06 very very much in the "spirit" of the '67..

Oh, BTW, I snagged the 100th post... if that sort of thing actually merits excitement...


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## t0ny (Oct 5, 2005)

GTO JUDGE said:


> Johnnytuinal was a wisenheimer Ford guy who only came in here to cause problems and argue with others. He got off on his "knowledge of cars" and embellishments. He was tolerated, but he crossed the line when he registered under another user ID. He was in a category all by himself. He is now wearing cement shoes at the bottom of Laketuinal.


Oh yeah, I recall Johnny Loserboy....

What were we talking about? 

Nice Bimmer! But given my current financial status, I may never sit behind the wheel of one of those. But you can put *any* sport-touring coupe next to a new-Gen Goat and see similarities.

A reasonably priced, comfortable, LS1, 6-speed was an easy choice for me. I still would have considered purchasing one if Pontiac called it the NEW LeMans.

I own a 1st generation Camaro. But it is _old_ and worn out because I drove the dickens out of it. I wish Chip Foose would commandeer it for a few weeks!

I love driving my old '68 Camaro. It's a great car. I love driving my '04 GTO. It's also a great car. But I can't compare the two because it just would not be fair. 

If I could afford it, would I drive a BMW? You Bet! But not before the Camaro got a full resto...


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

WOW! Who needs the comedy channel when we have this. :lol: *Wing_Nut* you are a certified A-hole. Kinda reminds me of... ME!!


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

6QTS11OZ said:


> WOW! Who needs the comedy channel when we have this. :lol: *Wing_Nut* you are a certified A-hole. Kinda reminds me of... ME!!


I bow to your A-Holiness oh great one!








Oh, wait a minute...yer not under the sink.

Well, I bow in your general direction!:cheers


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

Hey guys, just trying to help out wherever I can. This is the first thread in a while to make it over 100 posts in less than a month on the board.

I saw the thread asking if everyone had died or something and I thought.....let's find out. Maybe Cardio Posting Resuscitation can breathe some life back into the forum.

Now, some may make the quantity vs quality argument. But when I see a need I just can't resist helping my fellow human beings. If that means gratuitous argumentative posts to stimulate whining responses well gosh darn, I'm willing to get my hands dirty.

You treat me like (white) trash!!!! 










I feel so unappreciated!!!!

I'm gonna go hang out at the NASCAR forum if you don't apologize.


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## londo (Aug 12, 2007)

Originally Posted by 69bossnine View Post
Got it, thanks for the education on cars
You are most welcome. I am here to serve.......Beluga caviar......on fine Lennox china....with a bottle of 1961 Chateau La Mission Haut Brion Pessac Leognan ..... and some Tibetan goat cheese hand churned by the Dali Lama himself. Black tie of course. Nothing off the rack please. I can give you the name of my tailor. And wear your Rolex. $5,000 a plate but quality is not cheap? I know a person of taste and breeding would appreciate such an event.


LOL wow i feel like a looser hahahh 1961 chateau la misson, u must be a vip i cant wait until march, imm flooding this place with questions and want very detailed answers to each and everyone of them. I kno i can count on bigmac gto*(u kno who im talking about) my bud with the old school and the new gto. I hope the rest of you experts help out then to. Becuase this soon to be 18yr old is going to need all of your help 24/7 :cool

Oh and so no one screams at me (wingnut) for getting of topic ummmm my views on the 650 beemer yea my buddy has a veryyy prettyy butt very slow 2002 325ci 2 door coupe with 20's lol:cool. I mean he got beat by my other friend in a scion TC and i was amazed, i kno the 325 isnt a m5 or anything but he payed 20k for a car with 60k miles on it b/c it was a beemer. And to be beaten by a 14k scion just blew my mind,that defidently started my search for a car with the best bang for the buck. Dont get me wrong i think there has to be better material used and all around better craftsman ship but 75k for that 650 just dosent seem right. But then again im only 17 and dont have that kinda cash so i guess id be bias.


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## IOUNIX (Nov 18, 2004)

*Wrong name*



Wing_Nut said:


> I was driving beside one of these (in black) today in heavy traffic. I couldn't help but notice that the profile looked a hell of a lot like the GTO. Look at the roof line, the butt, the snout, the overall proportions, even the twin openings in the grill! It was roughly the same size and looked to have a decent rear seat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*

Well, I would have to say that I agree with most of what you said, but I firmly believe that the marketing mistake that GM made was calling this incredible vehicle a GTO. That created soooo many "haters" out there that were completly unwilling to give this car a chance. 90% of them have never even driven one. If they had, it would have changed their opinion completely. This is the best quality vehicle that GM has ever put out. The quality of the past F-bodies and mustangs doesn't even come close to this car. My hat's off to HOLDEN!!!*


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

londo said:


> LOL wow i feel like a looser hahahh 1961 chateau la misson, u must be a vip i cant wait until march, imm flooding this place with questions and want very detailed answers to each and everyone of them. I kno i can count on bigmac gto*(u kno who im talking about) my bud with the old school and the new gto. I hope the rest of you experts help out then to. Becuase this soon to be 18yr old is going to need all of your help 24/7 :cool


The 1961 vintage is famous and about $2,500 - $4,500 per bottle depending upon who you are trying to buy from. I recommend the 2000 vintage at about $600 instead. They are both excellent examples of the Bordeaux region's winemaking heritage. But, hey it's just old grape juice. A nice $20 bottle of Sangiovese squeezins will go down very well with a pepperoni pizza, some cheese and olives, or a nice brasciole loaded with garlic and smothered in a red sauce. 

With all the money you save buying a GTO instead of a 650i you'll be able to afford to indulge in all sorts of other great stuff.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Gimmie a bottle of Bones Farm Apple.........3.99 :willy::willy:


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

GTO JUDGE said:


> Gimmie a bottle of Bones Farm Apple.........3.99 :willy::willy:


Country Kwencher or Strawberry Hill for me Yo. Man I remember when that poison was 99 cent a bottle in the mid 80s.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

6QTS11OZ said:


> Country Kwencher or Strawberry Hill for me Yo. Man I remember when that poison was 99 cent a bottle in the mid 80s.


We were hitting that juice up in high school in the early to mid 70's. A cheap high. I don't even know if they make that anymore.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

GTO JUDGE said:


> We were hitting that juice up in high school in the early to mid 70's. A cheap high. I don't even know if they make that anymore.


No no no guys! You can't compare that swill to a well aged classic Bordeaux. Sure, they're both grape juice but the expensive $h!t is smoother with a delicate aroma of cherries and lemons enhanced by a subtle smokiness and a lusty finish and that the cheap crap you're drinking could never hope to match. I don't care how expensive the Chateau La Mission Haut Brion Pessac Leognan becomes. It's just better than that cheap sterno that's pickling your gizzards! Because it is!

I hope your rebuttal will contain some substance like the facts I have laid out above.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

GTO JUDGE said:


> Gimmie a bottle of Bones Farm Apple.........3.99 :willy::willy:


 
I hope you meant Boone's Farm and yer not out milking the Amish stallions.

Bad images......bad bad images......brrrrrrrrrr!


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

Wing_Nut said:


> No no no guys! You can't compare that swill to a well aged classic Bordeaux. Sure, they're both grape juice but the expensive $h!t is smoother with a delicate aroma of cherries and lemons enhanced by a subtle smokiness and a lusty finish and that the cheap crap you're drinking could never hope to match. I don't care how expensive the Chateau La Mission Haut Brion Pessac Leognan becomes. It's just better than that cheap sterno that's pickling your gizzards! Because it is!
> 
> I hope your rebuttal will contain some substance like the facts I have laid out above.


Come on man. You know you want to jump on the train to Boonesville. Here's a link to rot-gut heaven brother;

Flavors

Since Christmas is right around the corner could you ship, Next Day Air of course, me a case of any flavor of this fine oil we know as "The Po Man's _Chateau La break my wallet crap that you drink_".

Thanks in advance! :cheers


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Wing_Nut said:


> No no no guys! You can't compare that swill to a well aged classic Bordeaux. Sure, they're both grape juice but the expensive $h!t is smoother with a delicate aroma of cherries and lemons enhanced by a subtle smokiness and a lusty finish and that the cheap crap you're drinking could never hope to match. I don't care how expensive the Chateau La Mission Haut Brion Pessac Leognan becomes. It's just better than that cheap sterno that's pickling your gizzards! Because it is!
> 
> I hope your rebuttal will contain some substance like the facts I have laid out above.


Man Wing.....You got my taste buds dancing.....My rebuttal is simple..... Pass me a jug of what you are drinking! I am game for the fine stuff.

As far as Amish stallions...... They are some BIG horses.. there ain't no wine gonna get me close to one of them.....Besides the Amish play with their sheep. That's another story......:willy:


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

:rofl: Talk about some funny stuff. Click on this Boone's Farm link, Testimonials, and check out what some of these folks wrote. I can't believe they actually posted some of those. I almost sent them something outrageous just to see if they'd post it. Maybe I will later just for sh!ts and grins.


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## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

GTO JUDGE said:


> We were hitting that juice up in high school in the early to mid 70's. A cheap high. I don't even know if they make that anymore.


MD 20/20.... back in the day the saying went, 2 quarters and a dime could get you high every time. 60 cents for a hip pocket pint... followed by a day after filled with pain.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Red Bearded Goat said:


> MD 20/20.... back in the day the saying went, 2 quarters and a dime could get you high every time. 60 cents for a hip pocket pint... followed by a day after filled with pain.


Been there done that :willy::willy:


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

6QTS11OZ said:


> Come on man. You know you want to jump on the train to Boonesville. Here's a link to rot-gut heaven brother;


Might I interest you instead in a fine 5-liter box wine such as Almaden's Cabernet Sauvignon @ $10 per box. No finer value exists for the discerning wino.

There's no stumbling back to the liquor store every 30 minutes. One box will see you happily curled up in your favorite box in the alley of your choice.

There are no dangerous glass shards to worry about if you take a fall pushing your cart / worldly goods. Hell the box and plastic liner combo can break the fall of a 250 lb man without rupturing or losing a drop.

Al Gore will like you. The outer corrugated box is completely biodegradeable. Just toss it in the street and walk away with a clear conscience. The plastic liner will serve as fuel for a 50 gallon furnace to heat your alley.

At $2 per liter, you'll be able to splurge for a pack of smokes from time to time. There's nothing like a cigarette after you finish a nice box of Cabernet and roll off of a bag lady before you both drift away in the arms of morpheus (greek god of dreams).

Before you drink it, the box can be used as a chair, table, or wheel chocks for your shopping cart.

There's none of that "paper bag" stigma you get with bottles.

I admit that MD 20/20 can have some very pretty colors but I think you'll agree that the advantages of box wine technology constitute a great leap forward for bums and winos across the civilized world.


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

Wing_Nut said:


> Might I interest you instead in a fine 5-liter box wine such as Almaden's Cabernet Sauvignon @ $10 per box. No finer value exists for the discerning wino.
> 
> There's no stumbling back to the liquor store every 30 minutes. One box will see you happily curled up in your favorite box in the alley of your choice.
> 
> ...


Bless you my brother for this lovely info. I need to log off so I can go stand in front of the 99 cent store, beg up a few coins from a couple of welfare recipients and go get me some of them good drinkings. **Where's my corduroy coat with the missing buttons. It's cold out yonder tonight** :cheers


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

6QTS11OZ said:


> Bless you my brother for this lovely info. I need to log off so I can go stand in front of the 99 cent store, beg up a few coins from a couple of welfare recipients and go get me some of them good drinkings. **Where's my corduroy coat with the missing buttons. It's cold out yonder tonight** :cheers


Here's a tip. When I need some extra cash, I stagger through a local gas station and swipe one of the courtesy squeegee's. You can just hide it under two or three coats. Next, fill yer empty wine box with water. Then, it's off to a busy intersection near an office park. When the light turns red and the customers are trapped, douse a windshield with a shot of water from the wine box and then give a few half-hearted swipes with the squeegee. Then quickly, proceed to the drivers window and smear your greasy hands all over the paint while signaling the driver that you want payment for the valuable service just rendered.

BMW drivers are best. They seem to have lots of cash and don't mind tossing it out the window. They are also very protective of their cars and easily scared. If the guy (or girl) is ignoring you, a quick bout of wretching while slumped over their hood will often help them find their wallet. Always be polite and thank your customers with a big gap toothed smile for using your service. You want repeat business after all.

A short 30 - 60 minutes on your feet at rush hour will allow you to be a man of leisure the rest of the day. Good luck brother!


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