# Recommended Engine RPM with A/C on



## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

I have researched this and have not found a satisfactory answer so I thought I would just ask everyone. I have a 65 GTO with a 69 428, 5 speed, 3.36 gears, and a Vintage Air system. I am running an aluminum radiator, good water pump with good clearances, and a Flex-A-Lite 7 blade fan with a factory shroud. I have never had any issues with overheating. As a matter of fact the engine runs around 180 degrees most of the time. I have the idle RPM set at 700. Then on July 3rd the local nursing home had a cruise-by car show for the residents so we took the GTO. It was in the low 90's and very humid that day and we were in stop and go traffic and never exceeded 5 MPH. We had the air on and the temperature shot up and pegged out the gauge, not good. Once we got out of the traffic it instantly came back down to 180 degrees, still running the air. 

I have since then sealed up the stock fan shroud to the radiator with foam to ensure that the air will only be pulled through the radiator. I have the Holley Sniper EFI and can set it up to where the idle RPM increases when the air is on which would increase the air flow through the radiator as well as make the water circulate better. My question is what would be a good RPM to increase it to. During my searching I found that the recommended idle speed for a 69 428 with a manual transmission is 1000 RPM with or without the air on. I was thinking of pumping the idle up to 1100 RPM with the A/C on which is the RPM the EFI uses to warm the engine up. What do you guys think would be a good RPM to start with?

I really don't want to make any other changes, like a different fan, because what I have works really good. Even idling for extended periods in the garage with the A/C off it rarely gets above 180 degrees. I am thinking that with the A/C condenser mounted in front of the radiator that when the A/C is on the added heat from the condenser is pulled through the radiator making it even hotter. My last choice would be to put a dual electric fan system on it and let the EFI control the fans, but I would want one that is a direct bolt on and comes with the shroud that fits my radiator.

Thanks for the help,
Dale


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

No, 1,000 RPM's or more should not be needed.

Timing. What is your engine's vacuum reading? What is your timing settings? How much Vacuum Advance does the distributor have? Is it working? Are you using manifold vacuum for the distributor?

Going by my '68 Service Manual:

Big Car 4 Bbl Manual Trans - Curb Idle (electric solenoid activated) - 850 RPM. Inactive - 650 RPM. Tempest/GTO - Same as Big Car with Manual Trans, RA - 1,000 RPM solenoid activated, 650 RPM inactive.

Fill level of coolant will be 1" below filler neck when hot, 3" below filler neck when cold.

Correct anti-freeze mixture?

T-stat not working correctly and letting you know it is going bad? Is it a quality T-stat or parts store bought? This one is said to be for the Pontiac and has 3-bypass holes drilled in it. EMP Stewart High Performance Thermostats 301 I believe I bought the Milodon version for my 455 build (still in pieces). It too has the bypass holes in it. Milodon High-Flow Thermostats 16401

Radiator Cap - 14-17 pounds? Manual says it will allow Temps to hit 258 degrees before boiling over - still not good for an engine in my opinion.

Do you have an expansion spring in the lower radiator hose to prevent collapsing?

Factory "Power Flex Fan" is 19" in Diameter. Not sure what 1965 is?

Is your fan positioned correctly within the fan shroud?

Belts slipping? Some belts are metric and too narrow along with incorrect V angle on the belt. They can slip without noise and you won't know it.

1968 went to a cross flow radiator which is said to be better vs the pre-'68 down-flow type.

Personal Opinion. Electric fans are only a band aid and then you will need to ensure you have the amps to run them, and wire then correctly.


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

PontiacJim said:


> _"Just to let you know I have never had an overheating problem until I ran the air in stop and go traffic on a hot humid day. It normally runs at 180 degrees even when idling in the garage for an extended period."_
> 
> 
> Timing. What is your engine's vacuum reading? What is your timing settings? How much Vacuum Advance does the distributor have? Is it working? Are you using manifold vacuum for the distributor?
> ...


The problem is not a cooling problem with the car. I took great care when I rebuilt it to make sure I had the cooling system right and it works great and very seldom sees above 180 degrees. My main concern was when it was hot and humid and we were in a slow cruise, stop and go below 5 MPH, the car got really hot with the air on. As soon as I got the car up to about 20 to 30 MPH it instantly cooled down to around the 180 degree mark. This makes me think the fan isn't turning fast enough at idle to suck enough air in to keep the radiator and A/C condenser cool. Plus the water pump is not circulating the water efficiently at the low RPM. Oh, and this was originally a non-A/C car so it has the smaller radiator.

One other thing I did do since then is I sealed up all of the gaps between the fan shroud and the radiator, that should help a lot because there was some huge gaps.

Thanks for the information and items to think about.
Dale


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

It is a cooling problem - it does not cool in hot weather at lower speeds with the A/C on. There may be other contributing factors which may eliminate the cooling problem - which can be checked. A larger radiator may or may not be the solution. Retarded timing or the need to tailor the timing curve to your engine may or may not be the solution. So running hot may be a direct cooling issue, or a symptom of some other engine adjustment needed.

You may want to look into pulley size. I know there are different diameters that change fan speeds. Believe the A/C water pump pulley is 6.5". This has been covered on the forums in the past.

Another thing to consider is a lean engine. Check the idle mixture screws. If they are run in too much and the carb runs lean at idle or lower speeds, the engine can heat up. One member found this to be his solution to an engine that went up in temps at lower speeds, but was fine when driving:

"Well, unfortunately the 4-Core Aluminum Desert Cooler didn't fix the overheating at idle issue. It helped, it runs cooler going down the road but within 7 minutes of idling its back up to 220F and not stopping. We ordered a 6.5" water pump pulley and a 17" 7 blade."

"We solved it! I got the car to run down the road at 180ish and when idling it stops and holds at 198ish! I’m super excited! Now comes the embarrassing part for me, (Jim you where onto this in your last post), my quadrajet idle mixture adjustments where set too lean. I set the adjustments to 1.5 turns out per the ‘generic’ instructions and never went back and adjusted them because I thought it was running so good it couldn’t be that. When my dad and I adjusted them out per the information he found, the idle smoothed out, the vacuum increased, and the car now runs and will hold steady temperature at idle. With the smaller 66 radiator and with the 66 shroud that only fits a 17” flex fan I believe I still need the 6.5” pulley and flex fan."


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

PontiacJim said:


> It is a cooling problem - it does not cool in hot weather at lower speeds with the A/C on. There may be other contributing factors which may eliminate the cooling problem - which can be checked. A larger radiator may or may not be the solution. Retarded timing or the need to tailor the timing curve to your engine may or may not be the solution. So running hot may be a direct cooling issue, or a symptom of some other engine adjustment needed.
> 
> You may want to look into pulley size. I know there are different diameters that change fan speeds. Believe the A/C water pump pulley is 6.5". This has been covered on the forums in the past.
> 
> Another thing to consider is a lean engine. Check the idle mixture screws. If they are run in too much and the carb runs lean at idle or lower speeds, the engine can heat up. One member found this to be his solution to an engine that went up in temps at lower speeds, but was fine when driving:


I did think about the timing at idle might be too much even with the EFI and Hyperspark distributor. That is something I can experiment with in the future. You set it based on getting the highest vacuum at idle which mine ended up at 27 degrees. When I had a carburetor on it I had idle set at 12, 24 mechanical for a total at 36, 6 degrees of vacuum for a cruise of 42. For the EFI cranking timing is 8, idle is 27, WOT is 36, and cruise is 42. For this car Holley recommends Idle 18-34, WOT 28-40, and cruise 32-44. So the numbers I came up with when I was tuning it are right within the guidelines that Holley recommends.

When I rebuilt the car I used all of the pulleys for an A/C car so I already have the bigger fan pulley.

With the EFI there is no idle mixture screws like there is with the carburetor cars. You set your AFR based on vacuum readings and how rich the car is running (checking the spark plugs). Mine ended up being 13.5 at idle, 14.5 at cruise, and 12.5 at WOT. For the AFR for my engine Holley recommends idle 13.5 to 15.0, cruise 13.5 to 15.5, and WOT 12.0 to 12.8. What I came up with during the tuning is within the values that Holley recommends even though the idle is at the bottom which is the leaner setting but the car actually runs rich at idle. To set the idle AFR you increase it (richer) until the car runs rough then you decrease it (leaner) until the car runs rough and then set it in the middle. Mine liked the 13.5 best.

I will definitely check the timing again but my timing and AFR setting were done with the help of the Holley Sniper tech. One thing I had to learn was to stop timing it based on it being a carburetor car and start thinking EFI. The car actually runs very strong and there was never a problem until the slow cruise with the air on.
Thanks again,
Dale


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

PontiacJim said:


> It is a cooling problem - it does not cool in hot weather at lower speeds with the A/C on. There may be other contributing factors which may eliminate the cooling problem - which can be checked. A larger radiator may or may not be the solution. Retarded timing or the need to tailor the timing curve to your engine may or may not be the solution. So running hot may be a direct cooling issue, or a symptom of some other engine adjustment needed.
> 
> You may want to look into pulley size. I know there are different diameters that change fan speeds. Believe the A/C water pump pulley is 6.5". This has been covered on the forums in the past.
> 
> ...


My bad, I forgot you are running EFI. Still, can you adjust to a richer fuel mixture? Different set-up than a carb, but same principal. I have no clue on the adjustments on an EFI, but it may be sensing what the "optimum" A/F ratio should be, when in fact the engine might need to run a bit richer?


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

PontiacJim said:


> My bad, I forgot you are running EFI. Still, can you adjust to a richer fuel mixture? Different set-up than a carb, but same principal. I have no clue on the adjustments on an EFI, but it may be sensing what the "optimum" A/F ratio should be, when in fact the engine might need to run a bit richer?


You can adjust the AFR, it is actually very easy to do but I think I have that nailed pretty close. The timing at idle might be an issue and I will recheck that on the next rainy day.
I am still thinking, that with the A/C condenser in front of the radiator, and with the leaks around the radiator and the low idle speed that it might be an air movement issue. Not enough air going through the radiator at slow speeds. This car also has the smaller non-A/C radiator. But I will first double check the timing at idle and see if it is a little high.
Thanks for the help,
Dale


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

DaleGolds said:


> You can adjust the AFR, it is actually very easy to do but I think I have that nailed pretty close. The timing at idle might be an issue and I will recheck that on the next rainy day.
> I am still thinking, that with the A/C condenser in front of the radiator, and with the leaks around the radiator and the low idle speed that it might be an air movement issue. Not enough air going through the radiator at slow speeds. This car also has the smaller non-A/C radiator. But I will first double check the timing at idle and see if it is a little high.
> Thanks for the help,
> Dale


OK, sounds like a plan. I'd just do step-by-step in trying to eliminate things before investing more money if you don't have to and then find yourself with the same results. I think we all have done this at some point, including myself. Maybe space the condensor out a little so it is not quite so close to the radiator and to allow air to be drawn up through/around the added spacing giving more air to be pulled through the radiator?


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## GTO44 (Apr 11, 2016)

Cheers to another holley guy! 

13.5 at idle should be plenty rich enough. I usually shoot for about 14.0-14.5 at idle on snipers (depending on compression and fuel type of the motor).

Tuning efi for highest vac at idle is a double edge sword. It has an iac and variable adaptive Idle timing with the hyperspark system which will effect vaccum. I only tune carbs with the highest vac at idle method. I’ve done a bunch of sniper/hyperspark combos for different customers. I like to find what the engine likes best. Which usually comes out around 15-18 degrees. Some times up into the low 20’s. I would bump yours down to 20 and just see how that effects idle tempsPlus the higher the idle timing the less rumpity rumpity you’ll hear from the cam. And everyone likes a little chop 

For the electric fans... i’m a resto mod guy. All my cars are setup with dual electric fans and an aluminum radiator standard. Of course proper shroud and wiring are required for electric fans. I like to see 4,000-4500 cfm for the fans. The nice thing about electric fans is you see that cfm at idle. Plus with the sniper you can have those fans trigger independently at different temps and turn off at different temps or wire them together so Fan1 output controls both. Being in florida i usually wire both tegether as its usually so hot here both fans are always being commanded after initial warm up. I have them turn on about 170 degrees and off at 165.

Wiring with A/C.... I love that with A/C you can give the sniper an a/c signal in and have the car automatically turn the fans on even when its not being commamed by the temp. Its only going to turn fan1 output on so thats another reason to wire both fans to the same trigger so both fans come on with A/C even if not at temp. For the sniper AC input, You have to provide it with a Negative signal as the AC input. I use the compressor 12v signal to trigger a relay. This relay has a negative feed for pin 30 and 87 goes to sniper). This will allow the relay being triggered by the a/c to send a negative signal to the sniper.

You can also Have the sniper trigger an AC wide-open-throttle shutdown relay. This is handy for max power while your a/c system is running. If you have questions about the wiring for all this i can draw you a diagram.

Also for temps, dump a bottle of “Water Wetter” in the radiator. We’ve seen it bring temps down around 10degrees. And can also wrap your headers in exhaust wrap to keep the underhood ambient temps down which aids in cooling.


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

GTO44 said:


> Cheers to another holley guy!
> 
> 13.5 at idle should be plenty rich enough. I usually shoot for about 14.0-14.5 at idle on snipers (depending on compression and fuel type of the motor).
> 
> ...


What do you use for cruise and WOT AFR? I currently have cruise at 14.5 and WOT at 12.5. I am actually thinking the 13.5 at idle might be a little too rich because it burns my eyes. Tomorrow I am going to try and adjust everything again.

I do think my overheating at idle with the air on is a result of the high initial timing. Setting the timing that way with the Sniper was recommended by the Holley forum but the car seemed to pull a lot harder when the timing was at 12 degrees. It just doesn't seem as strong at an initial of 27. The guy that built my engine recommends 12 for this engine but that was with the Quadrajet. I have had others with Pontiac engines running the Sniper recommend 15. I might start there and see how it likes it.

If I have to go the electric fan route this is the one I was thinking, Derale High-Output Dual RAD Fan and Shroud Kits 16927, the measurements are very close to the radiator support where the stock shroud bolts on. I already have the A/C shutdown relay and the relay for the IAC kick (which I have controlled by the compressor wire like you) which is what you use to increase your RPM when the air comes on. I think I am going to redo that table and have it triggered by the air coming on and a set temperature (like 190 degrees) instead of it being controlled by the RPM. RPM is too unstable and it is constantly fighting to maintain the set value. If I do electric fans I would still need relays for each fan so the Sniper can control them. I too like that the Sniper will turn on fan #1 as soon as the air is turned on. 

I have heard a lot about water wetter. But honestly the car runs at a constant 180 degrees or lower most of the time, even at idle. My only problem was that hot humid day with the air on basically idling the car in slow traffic. I really think bumping the RPM when my temps get to 190 and backing the timing back down to normal should really help. I also got some foam and closed up all of the gaps between the shroud and radiator. There was some pretty big gaps that was allowing a lot of air to be pulled in and not through the radiator.

Thanks for the info,
Dale


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

PontiacJim said:


> Personal Opinion. Electric fans are only a band aid and then you will need to ensure you have the amps to run them, and wire then correctly.


Agree on this point, and I run dual electric fans on my '69 --- not because I couldn't keep it cool, but because I wanted to avoid the parasitic loss from driving the fan.

Don't make this choice lightly. All it takes is a blown relay, failed temperature switch, or a blown fuse to take out one or both fans and then you're in trouble if you don't have replacements with you, and of course it's possible for the fan itself to fail.

Also electrical power. My fans pull 30 amps - each. The factory 65 amp alternator didn't have a prayer of keeping up with that load, especially at night with the headlights on. I ended up having to convert to a 100+ amp internally regulated alternator, after I figured out one that was the same form factor as the original, figured out how to wire it in a way that would preserve the "GEN" light function, finding the connectors I needed, etc.

Bear


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

BearGFR said:


> Agree on this point, and I run dual electric fans on my '69 --- not because I couldn't keep it cool, but because I wanted to avoid the parasitic loss from driving the fan.
> 
> Don't make this choice lightly. All it takes is a blown relay, failed temperature switch, or a blown fuse to take out one or both fans and then you're in trouble if you don't have replacements with you, and of course it's possible for the fan itself to fail.
> 
> ...


When I rebuilt the car I upgraded the electrical system to run the GM 100 Amp internally regulated alternator. I found the instructions for gutting and re-wiring the external regulator so my stock (new) wiring harness still worked. I am thinking I won't need the electric fans because I found out that I was given bad information on setting up the Sniper and an initial timing of 27 degrees is way too much. So I am going back to what the engine builder had recommended which was 12 degrees, the car was much stronger with that timing. I also sealed up the air leaks around the fan shroud and then I setup the Sniper to increase the RPM once the car reaches 190 degrees so the pump and the fan will run faster. If all of this fails to keep it cool with the air on in stalled traffic then I will look at the electric fans.
Thanks for the information,
Dale


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

I just got done doing all the changes, initial timing 15, WOT 36, cruise 42, AFR idle 14.3, cruise 14.8, WOT 12.5, with the RPM increasing at 190 degrees and the car still got hot sitting at idle. When it got to 220 degrees I shut it down. Then I tried without the air on so no RPM increase and the temperature still started to climb. I even changed the idle AFR to 13.5 then 13 and the richer idle made no difference other than burning my eyes. At cruise the temperature stays right at 185 degrees. If I put a small fan in front of the car and blow it into the radiator the temperature starts to come down even with the car running. So I really think I have an air flow issue because AFR and timing have no affect on the temperature climbing at idle. Next I am going to try Water Wetter before going the expense of electric fans.

I must say though the car is a beast at 15 degrees initial and the other settings I ended up with. I couldn't decide between 12 degrees and 18 degrees so I split the difference. So the drama continues.

Dale


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Dale those condensers do get hot, may want to go the electric fan route mount on the front to help the flow,may consider in the future of a aluminum radiator


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## GTO44 (Apr 11, 2016)

DaleGolds said:


> I just got done doing all the changes, initial timing 15, WOT 36, cruise 42, AFR idle 14.3, cruise 14.8, WOT 12.5, with the RPM increasing at 190 degrees and the car still got hot sitting at idle. When it got to 220 degrees I shut it down. Then I tried without the air on so no RPM increase and the temperature still started to climb. I even changed the idle AFR to 13.5 then 13 and the richer idle made no difference other than burning my eyes. At cruise the temperature stays right at 185 degrees. If I put a small fan in front of the car and blow it into the radiator the temperature starts to come down even with the car running. So I really think I have an air flow issue because AFR and timing have no affect on the temperature climbing at idle. Next I am going to try Water Wetter before going the expense of electric fans.
> 
> I must say though the car is a beast at 15 degrees initial and the other settings I ended up with. I couldn't decide between 12 degrees and 18 degrees so I split the difference. So the drama continues.
> 
> Dale


Those changes sound much closer to how i typically set up snipers. Timing: 15-18 idle, 32-36 wot, 42-45 cruise. Afr: 14.0-14.5 idle, 14.5-15.0 cruise, 12.8-13.2 wot. We have good 93 octane here in florida so i typically run a little leaner than your 12.5 value. As Stevie Fast Jackson says “when in doubt, lean it out!” But as long as it hauls ass and doesn't ping (and plugs look good) than 12.5 should be fine.

Raising the RPM at idle: while yes, it is spining the manual fan faster, your also making the engine hotter from more combustion. I see that problem when these 3 speed cars are on the high way. At idle around town they’ll hold 190. Hit the highway for 15minutes at 2,500-2,800 rpm and temps want to rise to 205-210 even with the extra ambient flow of air.

And yeah might as well try water wetter. Hopefully that helps. But more than likely you just need to pull the trigger on electric fans or electric fans with a new aluminum radiator. You mentioned the Derale dual fans with shroud. I just put that setup on a 71’ mach one mustang with a sniper setup and they work great. I think they are 2,200 cfm per fan so 4,400 total. They sound like they are going to suck small children thru the grille lol.

I like to use the Flex-a-lite fan controller in conjunction with the sniper. I use the temp probe they include with the kit. I set the controller to much higher temp than i have the sniper set to. This allows the sniper to control the on time (via Fan override on input on the controller) and when you shut the car off the controller will keep the fan running for 30seconds to help with ambient heat soak. Also the controller delays the fans for 5sec when it sees key-on power. This stops the fans from coming on while you start the car when the car is already up to temp. Fans can pull 40-60amps and with the electric fuel pump and lights on its puts a pretty good strain on the batt.

Attached are some pics of the way i setup the 71 mach one i was talking about with the derale dual fans, shoud, flex-a-lite controller, (sniper a/c input relay next to it in one of the pics) and you can see the Holley hyperspark setup in the wide shot of the engine bay.


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

GTO44 said:


> Those changes sound much closer to how i typically set up snipers. Timing: 15-18 idle, 32-36 wot, 42-45 cruise. Afr: 14.0-14.5 idle, 14.5-15.0 cruise, 12.8-13.2 wot. We have good 93 octane here in florida so i typically run a little leaner than your 12.5 value. As Stevie Fast Jackson says “when in doubt, lean it out!” But as long as it hauls ass and doesn't ping (and plugs look good) than 12.5 should be fine.
> 
> Raising the RPM at idle: while yes, it is spining the manual fan faster, your also making the engine hotter from more combustion. I see that problem when these 3 speed cars are on the high way. At idle around town they’ll hold 190. Hit the highway for 15minutes at 2,500-2,800 rpm and temps want to rise to 205-210 even with the extra ambient flow of air.
> 
> ...


Already have a really good aluminum radiator.
Do you think 12.5 might be too rich for WOT? I really don't have any way to tell other than a good SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess) or check the plugs.
Thanks for all of the information. I will see how the Water Wetter does but right now I am having to fix a new problem. When I was test driving the car and was behind a truck with a shiny bumper I noticed that both of my front turn signals were flashing when I had the left turned on. I tracked it down to a short in my less than 1200 miles brand new turn signal switch, cheap China crap. And these aren't inexpensive. Always something.
Dale


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

pontrc said:


> Dale those condensers do get hot, may want to go the electric fan route mount on the front to help the flow,may consider in the future of a aluminum radiator


I thought of that but I don't think there is enough room to put a pusher fan on it with the way the condenser mounts.\Dale


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

DaleGolds said:


> ... an initial timing of 27 degrees is way too much. So I am going back to what the engine builder had recommended which was 12 degrees...


"Initial" timing setting is (almost) meaningless. What actually matters is TOTAL mechanical timing (no vacuum advance) and the RPM where it is reached. Depending mainly on the cylinder heads (combustion chamber), "most" Pontiacs are generally happy with somewhere in the >neighborhood< of 35 degrees all in by 2500 rpm. That can change quite a bit depending on the heads, altitude, etc. For instance 1967 closed chamber '670' heads can "like" 42-43 degrees "or so". 

The reason for setting timing with vacuum advance disconnected is you're trying to duplicate the conditions the engine sees when it's at WOT under maximum load - it won't be making any significant manifold vacuum then. Kinda tough to duplicate that situation when it's sitting in your driveway in neutral  So that's why you always set timing with vacuum disconnected (and plugged).

The trick is to find what total mechanical number your particular engine likes the best, then READ whatever initial setting that translates to, just so you can easily return to that setting in the future without having to set timing with the engine sitting there buzzing at 2500 - which can be a little nerve wracking if you're not used to doing it.

Bear


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

GTO44 said:


> Those changes sound much closer to how i typically set up snipers. Timing: 15-18 idle, 32-36 wot, 42-45 cruise. Afr: 14.0-14.5 idle, 14.5-15.0 cruise, 12.8-13.2 wot. We have good 93 octane here in florida so i typically run a little leaner than your 12.5 value. As Stevie Fast Jackson says “when in doubt, lean it out!” But as long as it hauls ass and doesn't ping (and plugs look good) than 12.5 should be fine.
> 
> Raising the RPM at idle: while yes, it is spining the manual fan faster, your also making the engine hotter from more combustion. I see that problem when these 3 speed cars are on the high way. At idle around town they’ll hold 190. Hit the highway for 15minutes at 2,500-2,800 rpm and temps want to rise to 205-210 even with the extra ambient flow of air.
> 
> ...


Since you have experience with these fans and shroud, how would you mount them on a 65 GTO mount? The area where the stock fan shroud mounts is at an angle and it looks like the brackets are straight. Would I have to make my own brackets so it can bolt on the sides where the original fan shroud bolts?

Also, what temperatures would you have the fans turn on and off? If I remember I put a 180 degree thermostat in the car. The default for the Sniper is fan #1 on at 190 and off at 180, fan # 2 on at 205 and off at 195. These numbers actually sound pretty good for a 180 degree thermostat. I think I read somewhere that Pontiac engines were designed to run around 190 degrees. Just don't ask me where I read that.

Thanks for the info,
Dale


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

BearGFR said:


> "Initial" timing setting is (almost) meaningless. What actually matters is TOTAL mechanical timing (no vacuum advance) and the RPM where it is reached. Depending mainly on the cylinder heads (combustion chamber), "most" Pontiacs are generally happy with somewhere in the >neighborhood< of 35 degrees all in by 2500 rpm. That can change quite a bit depending on the heads, altitude, etc. For instance 1967 closed chamber '670' heads can "like" 42-43 degrees "or so".
> 
> The reason for setting timing with vacuum advance disconnected is you're trying to duplicate the conditions the engine sees when it's at WOT under maximum load - it won't be making any significant manifold vacuum then. Kinda tough to duplicate that situation when it's sitting in your driveway in neutral  So that's why you always set timing with vacuum disconnected (and plugged).
> 
> ...


With the Sniper controlling timing through the Hyperspark distributor you can actually set the timing for crank, idle, WOT, and cruise and the values won't affect any other value. Whatever you set is what you get so increasing the initial timing won't affect the total timing, or WOT. My car likes 36 degrees total. My old Mallory Unilite distributor had 24 degrees mechanical all in by 2500 so that means my idle timing was set to 12 degrees to get my 36 total. For cruise the vacuum advance on the Unilite was adjustable from 0 to 10 degrees, if I remember right. After a lot of experimenting 6 degrees seemed to make the car happy at cruise which gave me a total of 42 degrees for cruise. So that is where I got all of the numbers from. I use 8 degrees for crank because it makes the car crank and turn over easier and when you shut the car off it goes back to 8 degrees so you don't get any run on from a high timing setting. With the Sniper the car seems to be happy, and very responsive, with 15 degrees at idle. It was really hard to tell the difference between 15 and 18 degrees and there was no significant gain in vacuum between the two. The biggest difference seemed to be between 12 and 15 degrees. With 15 degrees at idle and an AFR at idle of 14.3 I am getting a vacuum reading of 20 at an idle speed of 700 RPM.

As always, thanks for the information,
Dale


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## GTO44 (Apr 11, 2016)

DaleGolds said:


> Since you have experience with these fans and shroud, how would you mount them on a 65 GTO mount? The area where the stock fan shroud mounts is at an angle and it looks like the brackets are straight. Would I have to make my own brackets so it can bolt on the sides where the original fan shroud bolts?
> 
> Also, what temperatures would you have the fans turn on and off? If I remember I put a 180 degree thermostat in the car. The default for the Sniper is fan #1 on at 190 and off at 180, fan # 2 on at 205 and off at 195. These numbers actually sound pretty good for a 180 degree thermostat. I think I read somewhere that Pontiac engines were designed to run around 190 degrees. Just don't ask me where I read that.
> 
> ...



The fan shroud will most likely come with mounting hardware. If that mounting hardware doesnt work with your radiator or setup, just use those thru-the-radiator-zip-ties. Drill 4 small holes in each of the 4 corners of the shroud and run thru the radiator. You can do 2 more in the center for extra mounting strength. Its quick, easy and holds very well. Of course if you can hard mount the shroud with the included brackets go that route. But being universal brackets sometimes they just wont work with ur setup.

Here’s an example.








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Have you measured the core size of your radiator? If you can provide me the height and width i can recommend a specific fan/shroud setup.


----------



## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

GTO44 said:


> The fan shroud will most likely come with mounting hardware. If that mounting hardware doesnt work with your radiator or setup, just use those thru-the-radiator-zip-ties. Drill 4 small holes in each of the 4 corners of the shroud and run thru the radiator. You can do 2 more in the center for extra mounting strength. Its quick, easy and holds very well. Of course if you can hard mount the shroud with the included brackets go that route. But being universal brackets sometimes they just wont work with ur setup.
> 
> Here’s an example.
> 
> ...


As a matter of fact I was just looking at the Derale site to see if they had one that is closer to my radiator core. I have the non-A/C radiator so the advertised core size if 15 1/2" tall. The core dimensions of the radiator I have are actually 15" tall x 25" wide, at its widest point it is 25 1/4" wide.
On the Derale site I found the 16825 which is 25 5/8" wide by 15 1/8" tall and moves 4000 CFM of air at 50 amps total (which is wider than my core), and the 16831 which is 24" wide by 15 1/2" tall and moves 3750 CFM of air at 38 amps total (which is more narrow than my core). The little bit taller of both of these shouldn't matter because of the tanks on the top and bottom gives a little bit of extra room on the height, but not much.

Also, I had upgraded my electrical to the GM 12SI 94 amp alternator when I rebuilt the car. From what I have been reading it sounds like this alternator will now be too small and I might need to step up to a 140/150 amp alternator and 6 to 4 gauge alternator to battery wire. What do you think of the alternator size?

Thanks,
Dale


----------



## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

GTO44 said:


> The fan shroud will most likely come with mounting hardware. If that mounting hardware doesnt work with your radiator or setup, just use those thru-the-radiator-zip-ties. Drill 4 small holes in each of the 4 corners of the shroud and run thru the radiator. You can do 2 more in the center for extra mounting strength. Its quick, easy and holds very well. Of course if you can hard mount the shroud with the included brackets go that route. But being universal brackets sometimes they just wont work with ur setup.
> 
> Here’s an example.
> 
> ...


Speaking of using zip-ties what would you think of removing my manual fan and replacing it with this Flex-A-Lite Flex-Wave Electric Fans 105390 and just zip-tying it to the radiator? Then I can just use my stock fan shroud and I can set the Sniper to turn it on whenever the A/C is on plus have it turn on at 180 degrees and off at 170 degrees. Not as fancy as the dual fans but a lot less work. At 18 amps my 94 amp GM alternator should be plenty big enough and I shouldn't have the expense of upgrading my electrical system other than a bigger wire from the alternator to the battery and a relay for the fan. At 3000 CFM that should be a lot more air than my manual fan moves at idle.

But if you don't think it will move enough air to cool my car down on a hot day at idle then I am back to the dual fans. This just seems a lot easier and less expensive. I was not sure how good the zip-ties through the radiator are and if they hold good enough or could cause problems down the road with the constant rubbing and twisting when the fan turns on and off.

Dale


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## GTO44 (Apr 11, 2016)

I would upgra


DaleGolds said:


> As a matter of fact I was just looking at the Derale site to see if they had one that is closer to my radiator core. I have the non-A/C radiator so the advertised core size if 15 1/2" tall. The core dimensions of the radiator I have are actually 15" tall x 25" wide, at its widest point it is 25 1/4" wide.
> On the Derale site I found the 16825 which is 25 5/8" wide by 15 1/8" tall and moves 4000 CFM of air at 50 amps total (which is wider than my core), and the 16831 which is 24" wide by 15 1/2" tall and moves 3750 CFM of air at 38 amps total (which is more narrow than my core). The little bit taller of both of these shouldn't matter because of the tanks on the top and bottom gives a little bit of extra room on the height, but not much.
> 
> Also, I had upgraded my electrical to the GM 12SI 94 amp alternator when I rebuilt the car. From what I have been reading it sounds like this alternator will now be too small and I might need to step up to a 140/150 amp alternator and 6 to 4 gauge alternator to battery wire. What do you think of the alternator size?
> ...


I would go with the 16825 and have it overlap a little bit. You’ll want all 4,000cfm sitting in traffic with A/C on. I would go with dual 40amp relays as the you want a little leeway for the momentary spike in amps when the fan kicks on. You can run power thru 2 40amp breakers. This is better than a fuse setup as if it pops it will automatically reset. You wont have to keep extra fuses with you.









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Between the fans, fuel pump, ignition system, sniper system, lighting, A/C and radio i would upgrade the alternator. The 140-150 range would be fine. I would run a 2 gauge main charging wire from the alt to the batt. Even the really nice 4gauge flexible welding cable i use is only rated up to 150amps (up to 10feet). And you dont want to be on the edge of that. Its always better to over guage. That also means you should upgrade your main ground from the batt to the frame with the same gauge.

For on temps... i very hot weather (all year round in florida) i like to bring the fans on early to slow down the raising temp of the motor. I always bring the first fan on by 170-175 and the second on by 180-185. That way when your thermostat opens the fans are already flowing air plus you keep air moving thru the engine bay which helps dissipate ambient heat. Speaking of which, with electric fans i’ve found using a lower temp thermostat helps. Try a 180degree with the fan swap and see how you like it. Or keep the 190 and if everything works keep it. If you’re still having issues try the lower temp thermostat.


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## GTO44 (Apr 11, 2016)

DaleGolds said:


> Speaking of using zip-ties what would you think of removing my manual fan and replacing it with this Flex-A-Lite Flex-Wave Electric Fans 105390 and just zip-tying it to the radiator? Then I can just use my stock fan shroud and I can set the Sniper to turn it on whenever the A/C is on plus have it turn on at 180 degrees and off at 170 degrees. Not as fancy as the dual fans but a lot less work. At 18 amps my 94 amp GM alternator should be plenty big enough and I shouldn't have the expense of upgrading my electrical system other than a bigger wire from the alternator to the battery and a relay for the fan. At 3000 CFM that should be a lot more air than my manual fan moves at idle.
> 
> But if you don't think it will move enough air to cool my car down on a hot day at idle then I am back to the dual fans. This just seems a lot easier and less expensive. I was not sure how good the zip-ties through the radiator are and if they hold good enough or could cause problems down the road with the constant rubbing and twisting when the fan turns on and off.
> 
> Dale


That single fan with stock shroud will be very ineffective. The electric fan sitting that close to the radiator basically needs a seal all the way around it to work properly (hence the typical styling of electric fan shrouds). The stock shroud wouldnt be doing much and you’d only be cooling the radiator over the exact area of the fan. If you werent trying to cool it with A/C then you may be able to get away with it.


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

GTO44 said:


> That single fan with stock shroud will be very ineffective. The electric fan sitting that close to the radiator basically needs a seal all the way around it to work properly (hence the typical styling of electric fan shrouds). The stock shroud wouldnt be doing much and you’d only be cooling the radiator over the exact area of the fan. If you werent trying to cool it with A/C then you may be able to get away with it.


It won’t fit anyway after I locked again. The way the shroud is made the maximum height is 15”.
Dale


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

GTO44 said:


> I would upgra
> 
> 
> I would go with the 16825 and have it overlap a little bit. You’ll want all 4,000cfm sitting in traffic with A/C on. I would go with dual 40amp relays as the you want a little leeway for the momentary spike in amps when the fan kicks on. You can run power thru 2 40amp breakers. This is better than a fuse setup as if it pops it will automatically reset. You wont have to keep extra fuses with you.
> ...


I will have to look but I think I already have a 180 thermostat in it. Thanks for all the information. I need to get back to working on it to see if the water wetter is going to help with the added insulation sealing up the shroud. I just have a bad feeling dual fans and an upgraded alternator is in my future.
Dale


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

GTO44 said:


> I would upgra
> 
> 
> I would go with the 16825 and have it overlap a little bit. You’ll want all 4,000cfm sitting in traffic with A/C on. I would go with dual 40amp relays as the you want a little leeway for the momentary spike in amps when the fan kicks on. You can run power thru 2 40amp breakers. This is better than a fuse setup as if it pops it will automatically reset. You wont have to keep extra fuses with you.
> ...


I wrote Derale Tech Support and they also said to use the bigger 16825 for my car and radiator.

It looks like electric fans are in my future. I finally had the chance to start the car and let it idle with all of the changes (to include the Water Wetter) and it got to 222 degrees and was still climbing when I shut it down. Now everything I did to the car did have a huge affect. It slowed down how fast the temperature rose. It was only gaining a degree every few minutes where before it had no problem pegging out the gauge at 245 degrees, and it did it quickly. I don't think it would have made it that high but I still don't like 222 degrees and climbing with the air on (I also turned off the RPM bump with the air on so it was idling at 700 RPM). I was waiting to see if it would reach a point where it stabilized and quit climbing but 220 degrees was my limit and it did reach that.

I checked and the car does have a Mildon High Flow 180 degree thermostat. Based on your recommendations I was thinking of having fan #1 come on at 170 degrees and off at 160 degrees (plus come on whenever the air is on) and fan #2 on at 185 degrees and off at 175 degrees.

I will upgrade the alternator cables to 2 gauge and run the power directly to the battery. Also upgrade the ground wire to 2 gauge. When you run the alternator wire directly to the battery can you leave the stock alternator charging wire connected to the starter or is this a bad idea and should be disconnected? I have also found 40 AMP relays that get good reviews, American Autowire Universal Relay Kits 500479, I will just need to replace the fuse with a circuit breaker. This is the alternator I was looking at, Powermaster Street Alternators 47294, now I will have to sell a 12SI 94 AMP with only 1200 miles on it.

Thanks for all the help and advice,
Dale


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## GTO44 (Apr 11, 2016)

DaleGolds said:


> I wrote Derale Tech Support and they also said to use the bigger 16825 for my car and radiator.
> 
> It looks like electric fans are in my future. I finally had the chance to start the car and let it idle with all of the changes (to include the Water Wetter) and it got to 222 degrees and was still climbing when I shut it down. Now everything I did to the car did have a huge affect. It slowed down how fast the temperature rose. It was only gaining a degree every few minutes where before it had no problem pegging out the gauge at 245 degrees, and it did it quickly. I don't think it would have made it that high but I still don't like 222 degrees and climbing with the air on (I also turned off the RPM bump with the air on so it was idling at 700 RPM). I was waiting to see if it would reach a point where it stabilized and quit climbing but 220 degrees was my limit and it did reach that.
> 
> ...


That alternator looks good. Should have plenty of amperage at idle and hit the 150amp mark pretty quick once the rpm starts to raised. And you can run it as a one wire setup or as the GM style with the exciter thru the factory gen or alt light.

For the relays and fuses/breakers you can simplify the wiring and footprint with a relay module. I should have mentioned this earlier. I love leash electronics relay module setups. Here’s a dual 70amp relay module with built in heavy duty FMX/J case fuses like a factory car would have. Its pretty cheap as well. Here’s the link:


https://leashelectronics.com/products/dual-70-amp-relay-board



If you go the traditional relay route like the link you posted from summit then i would go with 40amp breakers.


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

GTO44 said:


> That alternator looks good. Should have plenty of amperage at idle and hit the 150amp mark pretty quick once the rpm starts to raised. And you can run it as a one wire setup or as the GM style with the exciter thru the factory gen or alt light.
> 
> For the relays and fuses/breakers you can simplify the wiring and footprint with a relay module. I should have mentioned this earlier. I love leash electronics relay module setups. Here’s a dual 70amp relay module with built in heavy duty FMX/J case fuses like a factory car would have. Its pretty cheap as well. Here’s the link:
> 
> ...


Thanks, I will look into those. A lot to consider in this decision. Part of me says not to rush this decision until I can actually drive it on a really hot day and see how it does. But then the other side says not to risk it because I would hate to be out on the interstate in slow moving traffic because of an accident and have the car get super hot again. If it didn't get any hotter than the 222 degrees from yesterday, I could live with that, but it wasn't really hot when I did that. We had just had a rain shower come through and it really cooled the temperature down. So if it was 95 and sunny it might have hit the 245 degrees again like it did before.
Dale


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

GTO44 said:


> If you go the traditional relay route like the link you posted from summit then i would go with 40amp breakers.


These are the circuit breakers I am considering. American Autowire Circuit Breakers 500667
Dale


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

The dual electric fans took care of my hot idle problem. I have a 180 degrees thermostat that is working properly. I installed a Derale dual fan setup with two SPAL fans rated at 2000 CFM each along with the Derale aluminum fan shroud. I also upgraded the alternator to 150 amps and upgraded the positive and ground wires to 2GA. Both fans are hooked up through relays with 40-amp circuit breakers. I set it up so the Sniper would turn on fan #1 at 185 degrees and off at 180 degrees. The Sniper is also set to turn on fan #1 whenever the A/C compressor kicks on. Fan #2 is set to turn on at 190 degrees and off at 185 degrees. Fan #2 is also hooked to the A/C trinary switch so it will turn on when the pressure reaches 254, this fan is also hooked to a manual switch so I can turn it on at any time.



Today was not a super-hot day but it was 89 degrees and very humid making the heat index close to 100. I kept the car in the garage and opened both garage doors, front and back, and there was no wind. I started the car and let it warm up. At 185 degrees the first fan kicked on and lowered the temperature to 181 to 182 degrees and it stayed there. The car would not get hot enough to turn on the second fan, big improvement. I turned on the A/C and the temperature started to slowly rise and eventually made it to 190 degrees and the second fan came on. The temperature almost instantly started falling and went down to 184 degrees and fan #2 turned off. Then the temperature started to slowly rise and made it to 190 degrees again and fan #2 kicked back on lowering the temperature. It kept doing this and after 40 minutes never got any hotter than 192 degrees. I think I have fixed my hot idle problem.



Thanks to everyone that helped with this and for your great advice.



Dale


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## GTO44 (Apr 11, 2016)

DaleGolds said:


> The dual electric fans took care of my hot idle problem. I have a 180 degrees thermostat that is working properly. I installed a Derale dual fan setup with two SPAL fans rated at 2000 CFM each along with the Derale aluminum fan shroud. I also upgraded the alternator to 150 amps and upgraded the positive and ground wires to 2GA. Both fans are hooked up through relays with 40-amp circuit breakers. I set it up so the Sniper would turn on fan #1 at 185 degrees and off at 180 degrees. The Sniper is also set to turn on fan #1 whenever the A/C compressor kicks on. Fan #2 is set to turn on at 190 degrees and off at 185 degrees. Fan #2 is also hooked to the A/C trinary switch so it will turn on when the pressure reaches 254, this fan is also hooked to a manual switch so I can turn it on at any time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats great to hear man! Glad it worked out for you!


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

GTO44 said:


> Thats great to hear man! Glad it worked out for you!


Now I have a new issue. I woke up this morning to the house smelling like gas. I went out to the garage and there was gas all under the back of the GTO. I have gas leaking from the sending unit so I spent the morning siphoning the gas out of the tank. I don't know if the seal is bad of if my brand new fuel injection sending unit/pump is leaking. Let's hope it is the seal, even though it is only a couple of months old. Always something. 😡
Dale


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## GTO44 (Apr 11, 2016)

DaleGolds said:


> Now I have a new issue. I woke up this morning to the house smelling like gas. I went out to the garage and there was gas all under the back of the GTO. I have gas leaking from the sending unit so I spent the morning siphoning the gas out of the tank. I don't know if the seal is bad of if my brand new fuel injection sending unit/pump is leaking. Let's hope it is the seal, even though it is only a couple of months old. Always something. 😡
> Dale


Damn hotrods, its always something lol.

Do you have an EFI tank? Or an EFI drop in sending unit? Or did you modify the stock style sending unit with the bulk head -6an fitting and return tube thats included with the sniper “master kit”?


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

GTO44 said:


> Damn hotrods, its always something lol.
> 
> Do you have an EFI tank? Or an EFI drop in sending unit? Or did you modify the stock style sending unit with the bulk head -6an fitting and return tube thats included with the sniper “master kit”?


I used the Holley EFI Muscle Car Sending Unit/high pressure pump. It was an easy fix, it was leaking around the seal. Thank goodness I had a spare one from the original style sending unit. When I went to place it back in I noticed that the retaining ring that came with the new sending unit twisted all the way on by hand, you did not need to hammer it on. So I got the retaining ring from the old sending unit and sure enough, you had to use a screwdriver and hammer to get it to seat all the way. I think it was as simple as the retaining ring did not have enough of a lip to hold adequate pressure against the seal and it eventually started leaking. At least it wasn't something major and the house did not explode since my gas water heater is in a room off of the garage. That would have made for a bad day.

Dale


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

I run a Quick Fuel Carb, which has many differences from the sniper. Your readings run a tad leaner than mine, because fuel injection is more precise, but I find that too lean readings at idle or cruises make the car run hotter.

also , like GTo44 said I set many distributors up on these Pontiacs for 20 to 26 idle timing,. I think 15 is too low and will make it run a hotter exhaust. On conventional distributors on my Sun distributor machines I can get 12 base timing and 10 more from vac adance giving an idle of 22 BTDC. That should be a smooth cool idol.

I dial in all my carb circuits with dual wide bands in the exhaust....Idle I like 13.8 but light throttle cruise I don’t like too lean again too much heat, I run that at 13.2....accelerator pump shot..12.2......Power valve ...12.2.....secondaries open 12.2....

make sure your wheel wells have the proper rubber over them as well, the flow is really hurt if they are taken out. The condenser is dumping that heat in the engine bay, so I would increase that idle timing for a more efficient and cooler burn of the mixture at idle...20 or 22

27 and up for really dumpy cams that have a lot of reversion and are very lean. If you are just medium dumpy, where many are you don’t have to have 27 or 28.

that Hyperspark will put it right where you want it. Flex fans some guys rave about, I don’t know,..you made need the dual electrics. But the factory seven blade thermostatic clutch fan pulls a lot of air at idle when temps rise. That is what I run on my 461. With a 160 thermostat. On hot days I rum at 180 and maybe 190 in traffic....

I took the AC out. I have an AC recycle machine and can fix it just don’t even want it.

I have said this on the forum before, but when I was down at Butler, they are near me and supplied and cut my short block. They are super people. I asked them about a thermostat.
They said they put a 160 degree thermostat in every, every...Pontiac engine they build. They build street, street strip, just drag cars and they build tons of them. They are always backed up with engine builds.

I think the idea is what let it get real hot to start with?, let it open at 160 and get to work and it will run at the temp 180, 190 that your cooling system supports. In other words why get it all hot and then have the cooling system have to work to get it down.

If you run a good PCV system all the crud blow by and condensation will get sucked out of the crankcase regardless.

Anyway 4 core radiator with extra large down tubes from US Radiator is what I use. All A cars had 4 core radiators.


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

Lemans guy said:


> I run a Quick Fuel Carb, which has many differences from the sniper. Your readings run a tad leaner than mine, because fuel injection is more precise, but I find that too lean readings at idle or cruises make the car run hotter.
> 
> also , like GTo44 said I set many distributors up on these Pontiacs for 20 to 26 idle timing,. I think 15 is too low and will make it run a hotter exhaust. On conventional distributors on my Sun distributor machines I can get 12 base timing and 10 more from vac adance giving an idle of 22 BTDC. That should be a smooth cool idol.
> 
> ...


I think my next step is to take it to the engine guy that has a chassis dyno and let him dial it in. He has installed a lot of the Snipers on clients cars and now has experience getting them set up properly. Then there will be no guess work whether or not I have it set up right.

Thanks for all of the information and advice. I might try increasing the timing next time I go out and see how it likes it.

Dale


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Yes Dan, worth a try and dyno may help. You might also try a bit richer on that light throttle cruise. As GTO44 said, and he knows his stuff, you can run that sniper in that range. It will save gas, and the reason the carb has to be somewhat richer there is gas that will somewhat puddle on the intake runners.

This is all slight stuff for our street cars, but you also may try just a little richer on that cruise......maybe 14.1.....which is, by the way, stoichometric on 10% ethanol..gasoline..

.not 14.7....pure gas is 14.7....so .6 lower if you are running that.


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

Lemans guy said:


> Yes Dan, worth a try and dyno may help. You might also try a bit richer on that light throttle cruise. As GTO44 said, and he knows his stuff, you can run that sniper in that range. It will save gas, and the reason the carb has to be somewhat richer there is gas that will somewhat puddle on the intake runners.
> 
> This is all slight stuff for our street cars, but you also may try just a little richer on that cruise......maybe 14.1.....which is, by the way, stoichometric on 10% ethanol..gasoline..
> 
> .not 14.7....pure gas is 14.7....so .6 lower if you are running that.


Thanks, I appreciate the advice,
Dale


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Oh and sorry about your gas leak, ...always remember to shut off the gas to your garage hot water heater “Pilot Light” when you working on fuel lines, tanks even carbs if lots of gas around.

gasoline fumes are heavier than air and all sink to the bottom of your garage floor and then start creeping up.....it is the reason building codes require that hot water heaters sit about 12 inches above the floor. But enough gasoline fumes and it will slowly get higher.

so I shut it off first, fix my fuel issue and then turn it back on.


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

Lemans guy said:


> Oh and sorry about your gas leak, ...always remember to shut off the gas to your garage hot water heater “Pilot Light” when you working on fuel lines, tanks even carbs if lots of gas around.
> 
> gasoline fumes are heavier than air and all sink to the bottom of your garage floor and then start creeping up.....it is the reason building codes require that hot water heaters sit about 12 inches above the floor. But enough gasoline fumes and it will slowly get higher.
> 
> so I shut it off first, fix my fuel issue and then turn it back on.


Yeah, we already had one garage fire the week before Christmas 2007. This is what was left of my 66 after my wife's car caught fire and burned the garage. So I am very careful when it comes to gas fumes in the garage. The new water heater doesn't have a pilot light, it uses an igniter, so I think that saved me this time.

Dale


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Yeah and I always store gasoline only,....only,...only ....in a safety can!....

safety cans cost more money and people do not want to buy them. So they use cheap cans, and even plastic cans.

A safety can has a very strong spring loaded cap, with a cork seal. Inside there is a flame arrestor made of wire mesh. Gas fumes cannot leak out because of the strong spring against cork seal. You can hear these cans pop from the vapor pressure and they are thick steel. If while pouring the gas, a spark from a hot car or staid electricity hits the gas and flames, the flame arrestor snuffs the flame from entering the full can and if you drop it from the whoosh and flame the lid slams airtight shut, thereby saving your bacon....and you are not crispy bacon.....try that scenario with your pep boys plastic gas can with screw on lid.

“Justrite Safety cansl” are a big manufacturer, there are others, but if you store gas or diesel in your garage for tractors, cars, mowers ATV’ etc get one or two. With Diesel use a yellow cam. Gas a Red can. $60 instead of $12 maybe.....that extra $48 dollars could save you a lot of pain and anguish.

Guys say I don’t need one, I am safe............. “I never had a fire before...”

Guys that have had a fire say...."......................“ I never had a fire before.....this one”

it can happen to any of us, but forgo that new chrome piece for the car at the moment and get a new safety can first.


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

Lemans guy said:


> Yeah and I always store gasoline only,....only,...only ....in a safety can!....
> 
> safety cans cost more money and people do not want to buy them. So they use cheap cans, and even plastic cans.
> 
> ...


I store all of my mowers and gas, to include LP tanks, in a storage shed in the back yard. I have no gas or equipment stored in my garage other than our vehicles.
dale


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

GTO44 said:


> Those changes sound much closer to how i typically set up snipers. Timing: 15-18 idle, 32-36 wot, 42-45 cruise. Afr: 14.0-14.5 idle, 14.5-15.0 cruise, 12.8-13.2 wot. We have good 93 octane here in florida so i typically run a little leaner than your 12.5 value. As Stevie Fast Jackson says “when in doubt, lean it out!” But as long as it hauls ass and doesn't ping (and plugs look good) than 12.5 should be fine.





Lemans guy said:


> also , like GTo44 said I set many distributors up on these Pontiacs for 20 to 26 idle timing,. I think 15 is too low and will make it run a hotter exhaust. On conventional distributors on my Sun distributor machines I can get 12 base timing and 10 more from vac adance giving an idle of 22 BTDC. That should be a smooth cool idol.
> 
> I dial in all my carb circuits with dual wide bands in the exhaust....Idle I like 13.8 but light throttle cruise I don’t like too lean again too much heat, I run that at 13.2....accelerator pump shot..12.2......Power valve ...12.2.....secondaries open 12.2....





Lemans guy said:


> You might also try a bit richer on that light throttle cruise. As GTO44 said, and he knows his stuff, you can run that sniper in that range.
> 
> This is all slight stuff for our street cars, but you also may try just a little richer on that cruise......maybe 14.1.....which is, by the way, stoichometric on 10% ethanol..gasoline..
> 
> .not 14.7....pure gas is 14.7....so .6 lower if you are running that.


I did some more messing with the AFR settings and timing based on both of your recommendations. I noticed the car had a slight surge while doing light cruising (45 to 50MPH) and that there was also a small hesitation when I went to give it just a little gas. So that was telling me that I was too lean on the cruise just like Lemans Guy was saying. What I ended up with I raised the timing to 20 from the 15 which gave me a better vacuum reading at idle but did not affect my performance. Then I changed the idle AFR from 14.3 to 13.8 and the cruise from 14.8 to 14.1 based on the logic that the gas now is 10% alcohol. My WOT was 12.5 and I moved that to 12.8 but did not see any difference so I placed it back to the 12.5. What I noticed is the surging has disappeared and the hesitation is gone. The car would also cough sometimes when you gave it a little gas to leave a stop light and that is also gone. What I have noticed at an idle that I don't like is the rich smell is back to the exhaust where it burns my eyes. Its not horrible, but it is still there but it may be a necessary evil. I am not sure about the 20 degrees initial timing but I will try driving it more at a later date and see how it does, storms are coming so its time to put it up for the day.

One thing I did notice while I was playing with it if I increased the idle from 700 to 800 it seemed to idle better but the normal idle for this engine is 650. Should I leave the idle at 700 or increase it to the 800 where it idles a little better? The bad thing about the 800 is the engine will be building heat faster which was my original problem.

Thanks for all the help and great advice to everyone that has helped with this project.
Dale


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

650 may be original idle but do you have all original parts? Original cam? Intake? ...Sniper system is not original,...no go to 800 it will be fine there.

I would recommend a bottle of Redline SI complete fuel system cleaner, just dump it in a full tank of gas. Any good auto parts has it. It is one of the only gas additives that is not snake oil, it will clean the carb and lines and intake and can even withstand high cylinder pressures.

it has “Techron” a chemical developed by Chevron chemists to clean fuel systems, even keeping new ones in top shape. Drop that WOT to 12.2, especially if your are running pump gas ethanol,..which I do as well, but always keep a little maintenance amount of Redline S1 in the tank.......Remember if the pure gas recommendation is 12 8 on pure gas....that is actually 12.2 on 10% ethanol with a 14.1 stociometric,... if you are running 12.5 on 10% that is actualy a comparable reading .6 higher to 13.1.....

that is way to lean at WOT,....makes heat cause detonation, backfire etc.

if those other changes helped this should as well.....you may just have some gummed up intakecausing that rich small. What isyour PCV system like?


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

Lemans guy said:


> 650 may be original idle but do you have all original parts? Original cam? Intake? ...Sniper system is not original,...no go to 800 it will be fine there.
> 
> I would recommend a bottle of Redline SI complete fuel system cleaner, just dump it in a full tank of gas. Any good auto parts has it. It is one of the only gas additives that is not snake oil, it will clean the carb and lines and intake and can even withstand high cylinder pressures.
> 
> ...


Everything is new, the car only has 1200 miles on it. I went back out and changed the idle to 14.0 from 13.8 and it made the smell a little better. It just seems to run really rich at the new numbers. Do you really think WOT of 12.2 is what the car will need? It does make sense considering the 10% ethanol. I did read at one time what you are talking about with the Stoichiometric Ratio and that does make sense. It just seems rich to me.

Dale


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Well you always have to check different on each car, and your smell does count, it is human observations, from your experience which you clearly have, and meters as well, spark plugs as well. It is a combination of all those things.

but pure gas At 14.7 is stoic a perfect burn for EMISSIONS..so it is a staring point, but these 50 year old engine designs and some things do differ a bit. If Holley’s sniper numbers are for pure gas and they are giving you say 12.5 for WOT..which is power,...that is 22 points below stoich...which it needs to be in that region.

Now if run pump gas ethanol,mit has more octane but less power than pure gas and stoich is 14.1. I run it it runs fine. But I set my AFR for it.....

Now 22 below 14.1 is 11.9, I like it more like 12.2 which is close, but more where it should be than 12.5 which is only 16 below stoich, not rich enough for power, too lean.

you have to set it for the gas you use,....6 lower does not have to be exact, 3 or 4 lower is good, that is why I say 12.2. You saw how those other numbers stopped the surge it was the timing as GTO44 was advising, he know the ranges...they are all ranges...but you may do better a little on the rich side of the range.

with so few miles maybe those rings have not sealed up good yet, and the PCV is critical. We just had a big discussion on the forum on that under PCV delete read that one for more info.....

The Redline S1 has 2 carrier oils for the Techron, one is an octane booster and the other is an upper cylinder lubricant, you cannot go wrong with either of those carrying the Techron.

these intakes muck up fast from bad gas or wrong mixtures so it can surprise you, and remember that you may have to try a few different settings.

I am not a believer in wide plug gaps unless you are a racer at high RPM. Even on HEI I like .35 as you get quick starts and reliable running on a street car and gaps are always working to get wider not narrower. Too wide you get misses, Idle misses can cause a smell as well and be hard to notice with a rumpy cam. Rings not seated quite yet could let a lttlie oil past the rings too, for smell. Again PVC needs to be stout.

you are all over this and tuning it in better than many can. Listen to GTO44 and some of these other guys on here plus your Holley sniper guys, and dyno guy will hit it Spot on.....

13.8 at idle is only .3 below stoich on 10% ethanol gas that is where I run, not really a rich mixture by any standard, but it will run smooth there, with the right lead spark


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

Lemans guy said:


> Well you always have to check different on each car, and your smell does count, it is human observations, from your experience which you clearly have, and meters as well, spark plugs as well. It is a combination of all those things.
> 
> but pure gas At 14.7 is stoic a perfect burn for EMISSIONS..so it is a staring point, but these 50 year old engine designs and some things do differ a bit. If Holley’s sniper numbers are for pure gas and they are giving you say 12.5 for WOT..which is power,...that is 22 points below stoich...which it needs to be in that region.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all of the great information. The next time I am out I will get a bottle of the Redline and put it in and see if it helps. One of the advisers on the Holley forum said that some of the high lift cams will have a richer smell at idle with the Sniper and there is not much you can do with it. I don't know if that is true but this VoDoo cam is definitely a high rise cam so that could be adding to the smell along with the .65 rockers making the lift even more. So it might just be something I have to live with. 
I will put the idle back to the 13.8 and drive it for a while and see what it does. When I was tuning for the highest vacuum it actually ended up at 13.5 so maybe 13.8 is actually closer to what this engine wants. When I get some time I will hook everything up and see which it likes and then drive it some more.

Thanks again,
Dale


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

DaleGolds said:


> I will put the idle back to the 13.8 and drive it for a while and see what it does. When I was tuning for the highest vacuum it actually ended up at 13.5 so maybe 13.8 is actually closer to what this engine wants.


I just spent some more time tinkering with the Sniper and different settings. The first thing I did this morning was to pull a spark plug from each bank to see if they confirm what my nose and eyes are saying. The plugs are still a light tan so I guess I am not burning as rich as I think I am, might be a smell I am just going to have to live with. Even when I had the Quadrajet tuned as good as I could get it the car smelled rich so there might be something to the cam comment.

I then started messing with timing and vacuum. If I went down to 15 from the 20 I started loosing vacuum. If I went up to 22 it stayed about the same, maybe a little better but it is hard to tell because the vacuum bounces because of the cam. If I went to 25 there was a slight increase in vacuum but I am not willing to go back that high because when I was at 27 the car did not seem to be as responsive. So the timing got left at 20 degrees.

I then played with the idle AFR. I started at 14 and then went to 12.5 and lost vacuum. I went back to 14 and regained it and then went to 15 and lost vacuum, so back to 14. At 13 it seemed to loose a little vacuum as well. 13.5 seemed to gain a little vacuum, again hard to tell with the bouncing and 13.8 was almost identical to the 13.5 so I ended up at 13.8.

These are the new numbers I have and I am about to drive it to the part store to buy a bottle of Redline and fill up the tank to see if that helps with the smell. Timing: Crank 8°, Idle 20°, WOT 36°, Cruise 42°, AFR Idle 13.8, WOT 12.2, Cruise 14.1

This is what Holley recommends, Timing: Idle 18°-34°, WOT 28°-40°, Cruise 32°-44°, AFR Idle 13.5-15.0, WOT 12.0-12.8, cruise 13.5-15.5. I am within their range but on the rich end of the AFR. But Holley's numbers do not correct for 10% Ethanol so maybe it isn't all that rich like Lemans Guy says.

Now I just need to put some miles on it and see if my little problems are gone and the car is still performing well. I know the last time I drove it after I made some of the changes recommended by Lemans Guy my surge at low cruise and the hesitation were gone, so I think I am heading in the right direction and might have it as good as it is going to get without spending the money for a Dyno.

Thanks again,
Dale


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Dale; I think your numbers look good, try it that way awhile. We all forget that these cars don’t have Catalitic converters on them and do small a tad different, back in the 60’s when they all smelled the same we did I not notice as much.

you have low miles and a lot of new stuff still seating in. I think that as long as it is responsive and not surging and running strong. I would go with that......

oh and one lastnote on your idle cooling, make sure that your AC is not overcharged on the high side. Some of these machines at the shops tend to overcharge the Freon, that makes for a higher than needed high side pressure and more heat. The condenser dumps the heat in the engine bay, so just a thing to verify.

Your AC system will have a specified temp reading at a certain ambient for high and low pressures. Just make sure that is not working against you.

Nice work!


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

Lemans guy said:


> Dale; I think your numbers look good, try it that way awhile. We all forget that these cars don’t have Catalitic converters on them and do small a tad different, back in the 60’s when they all smelled the same we did I not notice as much.
> 
> you have low miles and a lot of new stuff still seating in. I think that as long as it is responsive and not surging and running strong. I would go with that......
> 
> ...


I appreciate the comments and the help. I just had the A/C checked a few weeks ago because I thought I had a charge issue but it was a stuck open heater valve. Once I got a new one the A/C was nice and cold. But, the charge is where Vintage recommends.
Thanks again for the help and kind words,
Dale


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## DaleGolds (Oct 25, 2010)

Lemans guy said:


> Dale; I think your numbers look good, try it that way awhile.


I stopped by the auto store and got the Redline SI-1 and then went to the gas station and topped off with 93 octane that they call Premium Gas these days then went for a drive. It did really good with city driving, no surges or hesitations I could feel. Then I went out on a country road and did some 65MPH cruising and it did great. Of course with the 5 speed 65 is only around 1700RPM. I then turned around and while moving but still in first I nailed it to the floor and, WOOHOO, hold on, it actually fishtailed and then got rubber in second. I think I am finally happy with the tune of the car and the electric fans give me the peace of mind I won't overheat and can run the A/C whenever my wife wants. It also instantly hit my RPM limiter without any effort, I guess it is a good thing I set that program up

Thanks to all again for the great advice and help.
Dale


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Super,...sounds fun and that is the bottom line!


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