# The Marilyn Restoration Thread



## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Hi everybody!
I have introduced myself previously but for those who missed it, my name is Scott and I have been a long time GTO lover and multiple GTO owner. I was introduced to the perfect car by a friend, he had a 70 Judge RAIII .... wow what a car. I got my first GTO when I was 17, a green 68. She was rough and had no motor or tranny which I quickly remedied with a 1975 police interceptor 400 out of a junked grand prix. I drove her daily up to the college years and then sadly parted ways with her due to the high cost of maintenance. Next up was my white 1969 GTO GOD I loved that car, I only had her for a little over a year when she was destroyed by a hail storm. I was unable at that stage in my life to bring a car back from that kind of devastation, so she too was sold. By 22 I felt it was time to try again so I bought a 1972 numbers matching GTO that had been partially restored, poorly. When I got married at 25 my wife made me get rid of her as it was not a responsible vehicle. I should have known that marriage was doomed from the start 

That brings us to now, some 19 years later, a new wife, a new life and....my new baby. Marilyn. Rachel, my new wife, decided we needed a "project car" and she loved the 1969 GTO Judge in Carousel Red. We are not independently wealthy so we found the next best thing, a 1969 Tempest Custom S .... in Minnesota. Here she is the day we picked her up.



















LOTS A JUNK IN THIS TRUNK! 









Here she is on the way to her new home.









So Now finally at this stage of my life I don't need my classic GTO for a daily driver because I have a 2005 GTO for a daily driver WOOT! So, dis-assembly begins...and the restoration is ON!
arty:


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

*Day one of the "Project" 7-2-11*

we got started over the holiday weekend with the dis-assembly. 




























Got the seats, carpets and door panels out, looks good so far....



















Solid floor and trunk...


















Dash is out, and all trunk and nose wiring and lighting is out.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

*There's always something.....*

So far, all in all she's been in great shape. the only spot I am worried about so far is the package tray and back window, I am hoping after media blasting I don't find signs of poor body work there and that this is all just surface rust.










Speaking of, can anyone recommend a good media blaster in the Kansas City area?

I am optimistic, so far I have found one patch panel, welded in correctly, and it's obvious someone has used a rust inhibitor in the trunk and on the floor boards (POR 15 or something similar), so keeping my fingers crossed and hoping for the best.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Looks like a real solid project you got there. Congrats.

Good move on having your lady involved. My wife soon learned if she wanted to spend any time with me, she knew where I was. :lol:


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

Wife-----Car?????


I love Car.

The wife is cool also, but.



Congrats on the Car and a car friendly wife. I think it is 300 to 1 on GTOs vs wife that lets you spend time and money on them. The wife is a very rare option. I have had many many cars offered to me that where not practical any more for said husband aka friends.

If only I could get her out and work on them more then twice in the last decade. You are blessed my friend.

Oh and she loves the junkyard :rofl:.

"Nurse's shouldn't have to go to the junk yard" has a guy is walking by laughing. Why she is sitting in the gravel next to the parts car I am working on. With a screw driver she found, drawing who know what. Wearing pajama pants and Tee Shirt, and mouth a flapping. It was a kodak moment for sure.

Your barn looks super cool also. 

Good luck on the project, hope that is all the rust that you find in on her.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

likethat said:


> Wife-----Car?????
> 
> 
> I love Car.
> ...



Barn... :lol:no that is my unfinished side of the garage. I am thinking about insulating it and air conditioning it after the past week or 10 days here in KC. It was so hot (how hot was it?) I was so hot over the weekend all I did was paint a few little parts (in the basement) and dream of what I want to do next. I wish I had the funds to do all I want to do to it NOW instead of having to do a little at a time. It drives me batty.


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

You got a silo on your house(1st pic barn and silo, or am I seen things)? I was in St. Louis till a few days ago and felt that heat!!! Came back to Ohio and it is hot but not that hot.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

likethat said:


> You got a silo on your house(1st pic barn and silo, or am I seen things)? I was in St. Louis till a few days ago and felt that heat!!! Came back to Ohio and it is hot but not that hot.


I think the silo was at where he got the car at.. Nice project and great progress, looks like a non frame off build, clean car! Good luck and awaiting more pics.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

I think that pic (silo) is where he GOT the car, not his house. Imagine the shop you could have in that barn though!!!!! Of course you would have to eat all the beef cows first!.....E:cheers


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## DarthBubba (Oct 27, 2009)

Looks like a great start to a cool project!! 

Nice 68 nose! Those 69's chrome bumpers were hideous!


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

nice looking foundation, like Jet said not all of these cars require a frame off, looking back i am so glad the Tempest did not, no way i would have been able to get it done in 10 months by myself otherwise. At least you have the new Goat to fall back on when you need a little Pontiac Excitement. Keep plugging away at "Marilyn" (great name, classic and curvy) when the heat gets you have some basement projects set aside and do the big stuff as money allows. I was lucky enough to have a little windfall and get all my parts (or most of them) on the shelf before final assembly. Nice to have the wife involved also, that way the car is not your "Mistress".


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

*The barn and silo...*

Yea the barn and silo were up in *GOOD THUNDER* Minnesota where I picked her up. Yea Good Thunder, can you think of a better name of a town to find an old Pontiac? :lol:

I wish I had that guys set up, he had an awesome shop (along with the barn and silo) if I had that kind of room I'd probably be building a rotisserie for this project. 

So do you guys really think I can get away with NOT doing a full frame off restoration on this? I mean I'd like to save the money but I do want to do it right. When I found her I had dreams of not pulling the body off the frame and going full tilt but the more threads I have read on here it seams to do a disservice to these cars to not do it right and stop all the rust in it's tracks and make sure it's done right from the start. I want this car to out live me, or to be buried in it  if at all possible. 

Once it cools off a little I will have more pics up. I want to get the wiring out, pull the glass and then pull the motor and tranny and see what I have there. I am interested to get it pulled apart and see what shape it's in on the inside. 

Thanks everyone for all the feedback, it's very motivational. :cheers


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

OK here is the skinny. Cage nuts suck and the bolts brake easy. If the floors and trunk are solid, leave it on and work around the frame. The less you have to disassemble the better. It is cheaper and faster to get it going that way. I have been working on my frame off for 9 years. It keeps getting a back seat to everything else. It had to have a frame off do to the floors, trunk, quarters, and window channels. Just trying to make one less parts car. If it had good floors then I would have just replaced the quarters and painted it up. Made the engine compartment look like new and freshen up the interior.
It does take lots of time and money even if you do all the work. Keep it simple sometimes is the best steps. Its up to you on what you want.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Well I guess media blasting will tell the tale then. If I get her back and she's clean I will scrap the frame off idea. I'd of course prefer to skip the extra work and expense and I am sure I can get her jacked up enough to get under her to seal the undercarriage with POR15.

And to answer one of the earlier posts yea I like the chrome nose too (the 68 version I got with her) BUT...I have a 69 endura and some of the hideaway components, including the elusive, super special, heavy duty, un-findable, hideaway headlight bumper brackets. So .... she will have a GTO nose and she will have hideaways. Anybody want a chrome 68 bumper?


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

100% show cars get frame offs even if they are rust free. For the rest of us, except Eric, we get by with what we got. Clean it up and POR it or bed liner like Eric did, good idea and covers up some woes. Nice build, keep us posted, looks like a good time!
:cheers


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## OrbitOrange (Jul 5, 2010)

Damn that thing looks really solid! Good job on finding a wife that gets involved. Mine hates my hobby pretty much. But I aint chasing women, laying out drunk or getting high so thats my excuse!

Looks like you pulled her home with an Avalanche? I miss mine so much best vehicle I've ever owned.

Good luck with the build looks like you have a great project.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

OrbitOrange said:


> Damn that thing looks really solid! Good job on finding a wife that gets involved. Mine hates my hobby pretty much. But I aint chasing women, laying out drunk or getting high so thats my excuse!
> 
> Looks like you pulled her home with an Avalanche? I miss mine so much best vehicle I've ever owned.
> 
> Good luck with the build looks like you have a great project.


Hey Orbit, thanks man! She is a keeper for sure (the wife)  
And Marilyn ain't bad either. We actually brought her home behind a Ford f-150 Lariat Edition with the Triton V-8 ....good truck. 

Yea I am hurtin' cause I have not been able to work on her for the past 2 weeks been too damn hot. But I am getting out there this weekend for sure, gotta pull the engine and tranny ... found a 400 I am trading the tranny for. 
So I will have some updates and more pics coming up next week. 
:cheers


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

Keeping the wife involved is the best thing you can do, not making it a chore, but something fun to do will keep both of you motivated. My wife knows how I am about cars, and she knew going in that is the main focus of my life. Sure there are other priorities and kids and home come before cars, but cars are my passion. However, my woman doesnt like the shop or doing car work, but she doesnt try to prevent me from doing this and she encourages me. A huge difference from my ex. The only way it could be better for you is if she was an expert at body, paint, and transmissions.

I didnt do a frame off on the 70, mostly because I wanted to stop it from rusting and make it look better in the yard. Eventually it will get it, but it is no small task and I want that car to get the best possible rebuild which is currently out of the price range and the shop is busy. Until then, it is drivable and looks much better. 

As long as it isnt rusty under there, dont worry about it. If the bolts come out easy then you can replace the bushings, but even that isnt mandatory. Not stripping the car to a bare shell saves time if everything is in satisfactory shape and you only replace the parts that need it. Something like Eric, Too many Projects, and my 65 takes lots of space, time, and equipment. 

The first one will always take longer than the ones after it, if you do another one or even finish the first one. Most people dont finish a huge project, but they can finish one like you are doing. A big part of it is remembering where everything goes, but the hardest part about it is motivation. Staying focused and working even when it doesnt look like there is any progress is something you have to learn to do. Its not 'Overhaulin' speed when you are doing it yourself on a budget.

The car looks great, and its had some work done already so chances are it will be easy for you to finish. Keep posting pics.


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

I got a front clip for my 67 Camaro from a guy in Danville Illinois back in 1991. He had bought new for his 67 RS convert. All the body work was done and he keept putting off the painting. He was an over the road truck driver. So why he was out for most of a month his wife went out to the garage and painted it why he was gone. It looked great. I was in love!!!! Lucky SOB!


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Thumpin covered it..
I've owned 90 some cars, 8 currently, and have never done a frame off. I dont' want to do one honestly, looks like a lot of work.. And my body work sucks, lol.. I have painted 30 or so cars, but handed that over to a buddy's shop, they take care of me, I do mechanical work for them. I bought body bushings for my 66, don't know if I'll install them or not. I have never felt body flex while driving a car, don't know what it feels like, lol.. I do poly suspension and sway bars. Do what the car needs and meet your wants, just don't take it beyond what is fun to you./:cheers


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Well it was a mixed bag of good and bad this weekend. 
We'll start with the BAD ... Saturday was still to damn hot to work on the car. So I did other things around the house and still about killed myself from heat stroke.  So I don't have anything picture wise to share today. Sorry I suck and I know I suck and I hate that I have gotten nothing done for weeks now. 
But then there's the GOOD. :cool
I got a call on my CL ad looking for 69 GTO parts. A guy here local (I mean LOCAL - like a mile from my house) is working on one, has had 3 parts cars and had a basement and garage full of parts. :willy:
Went to his place on Sunday and did some "shopping" with the wife. Got a truck load of stuff, I mean literally a truck load, I have to go pick it up tomorrow with a buddy's truck. A very nice hood (I mean I wish I was painting my car green cause this thing just needs dusted) front buckets (I mean driveable usable front 69 GTO buckets in black - not show car but daily driver quality) tail light bezels (no pitting still have the black paint on them), hideaway headlight parts, marker lights, some dash components, some A/C components ... it was 69 GTO nirvana. 
arty:
I will get some pics of the "parts pile" that's starting to grow now. Mostly cause I have nothing else to take pictures of. 
But we're getting there... slow and steady.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Sounds like you had a great day scoring some excellent parts! Now if you just didn't suck, and would post some pics, that would be cool!:cheers Eric


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

*Progress sweet progress*

We'll call it baby steps. I got that wonderful new stash of parts and I have literally been having trouble sleeping the past few nights because I sit and think about all there is to do and how little I have accomplished lately. :willy:

Well last night Rachel was watching America's Got Talent (as if) so I slipped out to the garage and kicked on the fan and pulled the driver's side fender and wheel well. 

(More good news, still not finding major rust, no damage and a good solid fender with no signs of patches, repairs or bondo.) WOOT.
Pics will follow, I am pulling the other one tonight .... then radiator and core support Friday night. 

AHHHHHHHHHHH feels so good to get sweaty and dirty with my garage girl.


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## DukeB-120th (Oct 19, 2009)

Hey man, this should be a labor of love. Keep it enjoyable, don't lose sleep over something awesome. Lose sleep over your paycheck, or the national debt, or tooth decay. Just not Goats! :cheers


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## markdavid (Nov 29, 2009)

great base for a build . theres a couple of blaster guys here in the okc area that are car nuts and do a great job,nothing too small or large .


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

*Update and Pictures finally*

Howdy all. Small break from the heat here in KC, Thursday - Saturday were only really fricking hot not surface if the sun hot, so I got some stuff done. WOOT. 
First I got some really good news. (And yea I should have known this from the beginning, I should have checked but I didn't) Marilyn has front disc breaks! I was stoked. 
I sold the LeMans hood, the chrome 68 bumper and my 389 all this weekend and got good money for the lot, so I have about wiped out my initial cost of the car, yea no kidding. Of course I have spent quite a bit in parts to turn it into a goat, and I still need a motor, but you gotta look at the bright side right?
Ok enough of my babbling, on to the pics. 
Front clip is off.









No real rust damage on this car!









There's the 389









Frame and suspension is in good shape

















Heater box









Passenger side is good too

















Now ya see it now ya don't


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

*Did somebody say parts?*

Oh and I mentioned the "pile O' parts"


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## OrbitOrange (Jul 5, 2010)

Looking good. Making quick progress.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

*More parts?*


























Yea I have even more, but dang... I also got the under dash piece with the lap vents, the duct work... there's more I am not remembering. There is just a ton of stuff piled up in my garage awaiting the completion of body work and paint. Hey anyone got a rally clock? I need one. :rofl:

The fenders were in great shape incidentally, the core support and fan shroud not so much. I think the core support is the only piece that was in worse shape than I anticipated. It will need to be replaced. Speaking of, anyone ever use a re-production core support? Ames has them for $219 and that's a fair price if they are good.

So lemme know what you think guys. :cheers


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

OrbitOrange said:


> Looking good. Making quick progress.


Thanks Orbit, I wish it felt quick. I am horribly impatient, which I fight with projects like this cause I am also a perfectionist and I want this stuff done right. 

Still need to get the last of the wiring and the glass out and then drop the exhaust and she will be ready for media blasting. 

arty:


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Looks like MOST of the makings for a very nice car!:cheers E


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Eric Animal said:


> Looks like MOST of the makings for a very nice car!:cheers E


Hey Eric,

Thanks man! Way I figure it I need a new core support and valence to complete my body structure pieces. Then update the suspension and brakes, new rearend that hopefully will have discs as well. Body work, paint and the parchment interior pieces and recover my seats in parchment. Then assembly and drivetrain. AND THEN DRIVE!


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Sounds like a plan. I hope it goes faster than my project! I always liked Parchment interior. What color will the paint be?


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Eric Animal said:


> Sounds like a plan. I hope it goes faster than my project! I always liked Parchment interior. What color will the paint be?


When we decided to do this Rachel wanted her to be carousel red, but the more we have thought about it we are thinking of doing a more customish paint - something along the lines of a black with carousel red metallic underneath, so at night/in low light it will look blackish and in the sunlight it will have the carousel "glowing" through. 

If I can get her media blasted this year, I hope to get the body work (what little there is) done over the winter and spring. Prime coat her and then start on the suspension, brakes and rearend. Then 2013 would be drivetrain. Then the paint. (when I can afford it)  Finally get the interior in and final assembly.

I'd like to do the Route 66 drive in 2014. If possible. :cool


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

That's planning ahead! I'll be lucky to still be alive in 2014arty:


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Eric Animal said:


> That's planning ahead! I'll be lucky to still be alive in 2014arty:


You better still be alive in 2014 ... I am sure that Topkat and I both will still be asking questions we'll need you Bear and the others to answer. 

arty:


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

We gotta FIND Topkat first.......


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

He is still on his test drive


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

^^^^^^^^^^


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Yea I am maybe a tad bit worried we have not heard from old TK. I keep telling myself he's just busy though. :confused


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I hope he's ok too...

I was telling my honey just this past weekend that we really NEED to do the Power Tour next year. This week I'm working on getting the dash together and installed, and the wiring. Last weekend I finally finished the wet sanding/buffing/polishing. Oh, I'm sure I'll find spots that need attention when I get it out "Into The Sun" (GFR reference there) but the main part of it is DONE!










Bear


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Bear,

I like you. I respect you, but why must you come taunting me in my own thread? Posting a picture of such beauty next to my busted up joint?


Eah, that's ok, it looks so good, I can't complain. Can't wait to see the nose on and the "finished" pics of yours.

:cheers


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Pontiacpurebrred said:


> Bear,
> 
> I like you. I respect you, but why must you come taunting me in my own thread? Posting a picture of such beauty next to my busted up joint?
> 
> ...


Hey my.friend, the point was that if a rank newbie first timer like me can do it,then surely anyone can --ya know?

Bear


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Heading down to SE Kansas on the 13th to pick up the 79 TA 400 motor, that guy still wants to trade for my TH 400 and he's still got the 3 speed and bellhousing that were on it. If nothing else I can sell it and gain some more momentum for a new 400 for Marilyn or who knows, maybe use it. At any rate it was worth more than an automatic transmission, so I figured what the hay. 
Plus it will help him out. 

So for the most part I have 2 weeks off though if it cools off at all I will probably pull the glass and wiring sometime in those 2 weeks. Supposed to be 107 today NOT counting the heat index. That's just stupid. 

So that's the latest in the Marilyn saga. Thanks all for your comments. I will keep the updates coming as things develop.


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## VMRWheels (Jul 28, 2011)

Your restoration project looks like its going better than planned! I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

*Funny story*

So I found a 71 455 original bore with the automatic still on it, about 77k original miles.  It's out of a wagon so it will need some TLC, but I think that's gonna be Marilyn's new heart. The wife decided leaving it an automatic would be ok with a 455. 
More to come....


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Nice score!!


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

I thought so. 

And the funny part (I forgot to add this to the post above) is that I am going to the very tip of the Southeast corner of Kansas to get the 79 400 (yea still getting it too, I mean it's FREE) and then on to Southwest MO to get a toolbox (big Craftsman monster) that's in storage at my wife's Aunts house then back up 71 to KC, well this 455 is ON THE WAY BACK, and I will have the trailer already on the truck, I will be there anyway. 

It was meant to be. 

Thank you Lord. 
arty:


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Ain't it nice on those rare (for me at least) occasions when things just..... work? :cheers


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> Ain't it nice on those rare (for me at least) occasions when things just..... work? :cheers


INDEED. It's usually very rare for me too, but lately I have been on the up side of the luck coin. Speaking of, the 455 supposedly has the A/C brackets on it. He's checking to make sure but if in fact it does I will dance a jig. 

Now question for those of you "in the know". I am quite certain the 455 has 98 heads and a 2bbl intake. It's most likely the YG 280 HP motor (it was in a safari wagon). I will also have the 79 6x4 heads from the TA motor, which I have heard do not work well for a good breathing 455. What heads would work well considering I will probably go dual quad intake. Keep in mind I do want to be able to run pump gas. 

Thanks in advance Bear ... since I know you will be one of the first to answer this. 
:lol:


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Get a nice set of Edelbrock heads, and run that dual quad set up!!!arty: Beat ya' Bear!!:cheers


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

:agree That's the setup right there. Cut 40 lbs and you can run pump gas.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Eric Animal said:


> Get a nice set of Edelbrock heads, and run that dual quad set up!!!arty: Beat ya' Bear!!:cheers


Hey Eric, so ya slipped in there before Bear huh? 
So which Edelbrock heads do you suggest? And you realize of course that I will be machining and rebuilding the block ($3000) plus Edelbrock heads ($2000) plus dual quad manifold ($400) plus carbs for dual quad ($500-$800) that's some tab right there....

Any cast iron heads that would work well? 46's? Anything?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Pontiacpurebrred said:


> I will also have the 79 6x4 heads from the TA motor, which I have heard do not work well for a good breathing 455. What heads would work well considering I will probably go dual quad intake. Keep in mind I do want to be able to run pump gas.
> 
> Thanks in advance Bear ... since I know you will be one of the first to answer this.
> :lol:


Dang.... must be getting slow in my old age :rofl:

Welllll.... not sure who told you the 6x-4's wouldn't work, but... the factory nominal chamber size for those is 92cc's. (Measure measure measure --- chamber sizes can and do vary from factory specs, sometimes by a lot) --- but if we assume they're close to 92, then on a standard bore 455 with standard head gaskets (.042) and flat top pistons (that usually have about 6 cc's worth of clearance in the valve reliefs) that puts you at 9.35:1 (assuming a "Pontiac usual" .020" deck height) or 9.69:1 if you "zero deck" the block. 9.35:1 is dang near perfect for pump gas and iron heads. If you do zero deck the block then I'd go with pistons that have a minimal D-shaped dish (like the KB/ICON IC889 - 15 cc's worth of dish). With those pistons and the block zero decked, then I'd use Cometic gaskets that compress to .036" and have the heads milled until the resulting chamber volumes came in at 88 to 89 cc's. That combination will put you right at 9.3-9.4:1 and also have an optimum quench distance of .036" --- Quench is GOOD for you. It introduces turbulence into the chamber that helps keep the air/fuel mixture nice and homogeneous so it burns really well, and also helps reduce/eliminate hot spots in the metal that lead to detonation. The 6x-4's already have the big valves, good chambers, and screw-in studs (replace the factory studs with the larger 7/16" versions). If your budget can stand it, send the heads off to Dave at CVMS and have him work his magic on them. Top all those off with a reasonable cam choice and you'll easily be close to maybe even over 500 HP with enough of that famous Pontiac torque to alter the planet's rotation and have a motor you can pass off to the casual observer as stock 

Plan B would be to use a good set of aftermarket aluminum heads as others have suggested. They make good power right out of the box. Go with 87cc chambers, .036 gaskets, flat tops, and you're at 10.24:1 (perfect for pump gas and aluminum heads) with great quench. Plus you've got way more potential in those heads as they can be ported to significantly out-flow even round port iron Pontiac heads like the Ram Air IV and 455 SD. The only down sides are cost and also it's not likely you'd be able to pass it off as "stock". With the right cam/valve train and other supporting parts, a streetable 550 HP is a no-brainer and 600 HP (or more) is within reach.

So, you've got options -- depends on your own desires/tastes and your goals for the car.

Please do run a good set of forged steel rods no matter what else you do. The price is close enough to what you'd pay to have a set of factory rods reconditioned anyway - and the factory cast rods are 90% of the time the weak link in these motors. 

Enjoy 

Bear


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

The 6x-4 heads thing? I read it in a 455 build thread on here....

Here ya go ....



Mr. P-Body said:


> The '72 heads are missing the outboard bolt holes for the exhaust. Difficult to get good headers to seal up and "stay". Other than that, they're pretty much the same as all the other large chamber d-ports. 4X, 6X would both be good choices to start with. It's commonly misconceived the 6X-4 is "better". It simply has a 4 CC smaller chamber. On a 455, that is NOT a good thing. The 96 CCs (-8) are just "right" for a pump-gas friendly engine. Same is true of the 4Xs. I believe the 7H code is the most desired, but don't "quote" me. Measure the chambers.
> 
> As for the d-port iron heads, the main concern is chamber volume. Once porting begins, they "all look alike"...
> 
> ...


So I don't know what to think now.
Everything you said makes perfect sense Bear and I HAVE the 6X-4's so I'd like to use them. But I have heard that P-Body knows his Pontiacs. Thumpin offered me some 46's so I could use them as well. I'd just need to retrieve them. 
Either way YES I will be using new internals. All the forged goodies I can pack in there. I will need some council on what cam to use with a 455 dual quad street gas automatic that will need vacuum for A/C and power disc breaks and what not.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Pontiacpurebrred said:


> The 6x-4 heads thing? I read it in a 455 build thread on here....
> 
> Here ya go ....
> 
> ...


PBody has probably forgotten more about Pontiacs than I'll ever know, that's for sure. He'll also tell you "there's more than one way to skin this cat" - which is also true. I had forgotten about the "missing" bolt holes on those heads, and that does make it tough to get headers to seal. That's part of what makes designing and building an engine combination so much fun - there are few hard and fast rules, lots of ways to "get there", all of which give you an opportunity to think and reason. (Unlike those ::cough spit:: chevy guys who only know how to repeat the same tired old small block or LS combos that have been done and done and done and done....). For 93 octane pump gas with iron heads you "generally" want to come in at somewhere around 9.3-9.4:1 "or so", 10.2-10.3:1 "or so" with aluminum. Even these numbers are guidelines and not set in stone -- a well built combination with just the right cam, good quench, kept in "perfect" tune, has a killer cooling system, etc. can push these limits --- a sloppily built and poorly maintained engine can rattle like crazy at even less compression. It's all in the details.

Bear


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Bear I wish I lived down the street from you cause I am quite certain I could talk to you for hours on end about these cars and never get bored, same goes for you Eric and Thumpin. We need to get together and go bowling some time. 

Well I am NOT a header guy, I have played that game with a GTO and NEVER EVER again. I will be using exhaust manifolds, I will probably get the RA repos that are out there. So that (the bolting issue for headers) is of no consequence, I am strictly interested in potential performance vs. cost and necessity. I will be thrilled with anything north of 450 HP 450 ft lbs or torque. I am ONLY doing a dual quad cause darn it they are cool. :cool SO if I can use the 6X-4's as outlined in your original post and be in that neighborhood I will be WAY cool with the outcome. I don't plan to spend 10 large on the motor for this car. It's just simply overkill for my purposes. NOW if I can just figure out cam specs I will be ahead of the game.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Pontiacpurebrred said:


> Bear I wish I lived down the street from you cause I am quite certain I could talk to you for hours on end about these cars and never get bored, same goes for you Eric and Thumpin. We need to get together and go bowling some time.


Well, you do --- it's just a really loooooooong street 



> I am ONLY doing a dual quad cause darn it they are cool. :cool


I'm with you on the cool. In fact I'm wishing you had two of them so I could try to talk you out of one...

[quoate]SO if I can use the 6X-4's as outlined in your original post and be in that neighborhood I will be WAY cool with the outcome. I don't plan to spend 10 large on the motor for this car. It's just simply overkill for my purposes. NOW if I can just figure out cam specs I will be ahead of the game.[/QUOTE]

I think you can get there with those. Know you could if you had them ported and cleaned up. When I started "working" on my motor something that turned out to be really beneficial was that I licensed a copy of the Performance Trends Engine Analyzer program. It lets you "try" different engine combinations on your PC and see what the results will be. If you're really careful and accurate with the data you put into it, it's surprisingly close to reality, or at least it was with my motor. With it you could try different heads, compression ratios, cam shafts, cam timing (advanced, straight up, retarded) and see how the changes compare. With my cam it predicted 13 to 14 inches of idle vacuum, and that's right where the motor really is.

Fr'instance - I just took a rough cut using my copy of the program to model "your" engine with 6x-4's with factory nominal specs, flat tops, exhaust manifolds, "typical street" dual plane intake with 1200 CFM of carburetion (twin 600's), and "my" solid roller cam, and it predicted 443 HP @ 5200 RPM, 487 lb ft. of torque @ 4000 rpm. - now of course that's just a rough approximation based on generic head flow and generic intake/exhaust, but it's in the ballpark. It also predicted 14 in of manifold vacuum - marginal for brakes in my opinion. Going to a flat tappet hydraulic with less duration will improve the vacuum at the expense of power - the Comp Cams XE268H for example results in a prediction of 390 HP @ 4600, 475 lb/ft @ 3700, and 16.4" of vacuum. That's with 1.5 rockers and without playing with cam timing. Re-install the cam 4 degrees retarded and the numbers change to [email protected], [email protected], and 16.5". Change nothing else except for going to 1.65 rockers and you're at [email protected], [email protected], but 15.8" ---- again don't take any of that as absolute gospel but it does hopefully illustrate how easy it is to at least predict how changes will react with respect to each other.

Bear


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Pontiacpurebrred said:


> Hey Eric, so ya slipped in there before Bear huh?
> So which Edelbrock heads do you suggest? And you realize of course that I will be machining and rebuilding the block ($3000) plus Edelbrock heads ($2000) plus dual quad manifold ($400) plus carbs for dual quad ($500-$800) that's some tab right there....
> 
> Any cast iron heads that would work well? 46's? Anything?


 ...plus forged crank and rods, plus bearings, plus, plus, plus....do you notice a pattern....LOL no one said this hobby was cheap the old addage "how fast do you want to go?....how much money do you have"


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> Well, you do --- it's just a really loooooooong street
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you can get there with those. Know you could if you had them ported and cleaned up. When I started "working" on my motor something that turned out to be really beneficial was that I licensed a copy of the Performance Trends Engine Analyzer program. It lets you "try" different engine combinations on your PC and see what the results will be. If you're really careful and accurate with the data you put into it, it's surprisingly close to reality, or at least it was with my motor. With it you could try different heads, compression ratios, cam shafts, cam timing (advanced, straight up, retarded) and see how the changes compare. With my cam it predicted 13 to 14 inches of idle vacuum, and that's right where the motor really is.

Fr'instance - I just took a rough cut using my copy of the program to model "your" engine with 6x-4's with factory nominal specs, flat tops, exhaust manifolds, "typical street" dual plane intake with 1200 CFM of carburetion (twin 600's), and "my" solid roller cam, and it predicted 443 HP @ 5200 RPM, 487 lb ft. of torque @ 4000 rpm. - now of course that's just a rough approximation based on generic head flow and generic intake/exhaust, but it's in the ballpark. It also predicted 14 in of manifold vacuum - marginal for brakes in my opinion. Going to a flat tappet hydraulic with less duration will improve the vacuum at the expense of power - the Comp Cams XE268H for example results in a prediction of 390 HP @ 4600, 475 lb/ft @ 3700, and 16.4" of vacuum. That's with 1.5 rockers and without playing with cam timing. Re-install the cam 4 degrees retarded and the numbers change to [email protected], [email protected], and 16.5". Change nothing else except for going to 1.65 rockers and you're at [email protected], [email protected], but 15.8" ---- again don't take any of that as absolute gospel but it does hopefully illustrate how easy it is to at least predict how changes will react with respect to each other.

Bear[/QUOTE]

Now that is some awesome information. I will look into that software and play around a bit. 
Thanks! :cheers

So hows about that bowling? 



Instg8ter said:


> ...plus forged crank and rods, plus bearings, plus, plus, plus....do you notice a pattern....LOL no one said this hobby was cheap the old addage "how fast do you want to go?....how much money do you have"


Oh believe me I KNOW that :lol: but my point is this, I don't NEED 700 HP, I don't even WANT 600, I am happy with 450ish give or take 25 HP.

I WANT, NEED, DESIRE a streetable, reliable, realistic engine that is fast, torquey and affordable. Not a "budget build" but I want to spend money on the whole car, not just the engine. Balance Daniel son. I want quality suspension and brakes, rearend, transmission, body, interior, electronics the works. If I sink 10 grand in the engine the rest will end up poop, I am not a rich man. 

But I will not sacrifice quality on any of it. I have my standards.
:cool


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

BearGFR said:


> Fr'instance - I just took a rough cut using my copy of the program to model "your" engine with 6x-4's with factory nominal specs, flat tops, exhaust manifolds, "typical street" dual plane intake with 1200 CFM of carburetion (twin 600's), and "my" solid roller cam, and it predicted 443 HP @ 5200 RPM, 487 lb ft. of torque @ 4000 rpm. - now of course that's just a rough approximation based on generic head flow and generic intake/exhaust, but it's in the ballpark. It also predicted 14 in of manifold vacuum - marginal for brakes in my opinion. Going to a flat tappet hydraulic with less duration will improve the vacuum at the expense of power - the Comp Cams XE268H for example results in a prediction of 390 HP @ 4600, 475 lb/ft @ 3700, and 16.4" of vacuum. That's with 1.5 rockers and without playing with cam timing. Re-install the cam 4 degrees retarded and the numbers change to [email protected], [email protected], and 16.5". Change nothing else except for going to 1.65 rockers and you're at [email protected], [email protected], but 15.8"


OK, what is the change of power by going with a single 4 650 or 750 CFM on a performer intake? Also, why did the torque stay the same and only HP move with the three last changes, odd by me, especially the rockers, as that is as good as a cam swap. Good info though.


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

$3k to rebuild the block? Who is doing your machine work? I got a 4.21" crank kit, floating rods, hydraulic roller cam, and rebuilt the heads with two new valves, new springs, valve job, and it only cost me $4100. If I had used a mild flat hydraulic it would have been $1000 cheaper.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Ahh... the torque vs. horsepower question  Here's a clue. You can't measure horsepower. Horsepower is a theoretical, calculated value that is an expression of "how fast" the engine is producing a force (torque). Horsepower is: (torque * rpm) / 5252. --- So, if one engine makes 100 lb ft of torque at 1000 rpm, another engine makes that same 100 lb ft of torque at 2000 rpm, engine 2 is making exactly twice as much "horsepower" even though it's making exactly the same amount of twisting force (torque). Torque comes from the energy being relased by a burning fuel. How much torque is a direct relationship to how much fuel you're burning. How much fuel your burning is a direct relationship to the cubic inch displacement of the motor - period.
Here's where things get interesting. Because the air flow through a motor isn't constant, it stops and starts as all the valves close and open, and because air (and the fuel mixed in it) has mass, it has inertia. It doesn't start flowing "immediately" just because that intake valve opens. No, it takes some time to get off it's behing and get moving just like anything else that has mass does. This is a problem in an engine, because as rpm goes up, those valves are open for a shorter and shorter period of time (the air/fuel has less time to get moving) even though the motor wants MORE air as it's moving faster. The only solution to the problem is to open the valve sooner and hold it open longer (more cam duration) so the air has time to fill the cylinders. Ah, but this introduces another problem - the exhaust valve, and low rpm. Just as it takes time to fill the cylinder, it takes time to get the exhaust gasses out, so to empty the cylinder to make room for more good stuff to burn we have to do the same thing - open the exhaust earlier and hold it open longer in order to get that job done at higher rpm. A direct consequence of this is that at low rpm, both valves are open TOO long -- the flow can actually reverse - we suck exhaust back in through the still open exhaust valve, and push that nice fresh air/fuel back out through the still open intake, so that by the time the intake valve finally does close we've got a cylinder partually filled with a mixture of air/fuel and worthless exhaust gas. That rumpity-rump rough idle sound we all associate with a hot car? It's actually a motor that's so inefficient at idle that it's falling all over itself just trying to stay running. It's all a trade off --- by playing with those valve opening/closing times, durations, and lifts what we're really doing is 'tuning' the motor to be able to efficiently and completely fill and empty its cylinders at a specific rpm. - By our camshaft choice we're "placing" the point of peak volumetric efficiency where we want it to be in the rpm range, understanding that as rpm moves farther and farther away from this point, the less efficient the engine is is going to be, and the less torque it's going to make. Peak torque is therefore going to occur at or very close to the rpm where the motor is the most efficient, and torque is going to be directly related to cubic inches. Now go back and look at the numbers. That's why torque peak stayed pretty much the same --- displacement didn't change --- it was 455 all the time. What changed was the rpm where peak torque occurred --- and the higher the rpm that is, the more "horsepower" the motor makes (from the formula). 

Tada...

As far as CFM of the carburetor -- the only thing that matters is is it big enough or not. Meaning you don't want the carb to be a 'restriction' that prevents the motor from being able to suck in all the air it wants. A CFM isnt' necessarily a CFM ---- carb manufacturers rate the flow capacity of their carbs at a certain amount of "vacuum" pulling on the base of the carb. Well, if I have a vacuum, then by definition aren't I trying to "pull" more air than I'm able to get? Yep. So you have to be careful with CFM ratings. What you want is that at wide open throttle, and at peak rpm, manifold vacuum (how hard the engine is having to "suck" to get air) is very nearly zero. Any more flow "capacity" than that is wasted. Any less, and you're not getting as close to 100% volumetric efficiency (max possible torque) as you could be. (Of course I'm talking about naturally aspirated engines here, not "boosted" as with a turbo or supercharger). Put it another way -- if an 800 cfm carb can supply the motor all the air it wants at 0 manifold vacuum, then putting on an 1100 Dominator is going to do exactly nothing (in fact it'll probably be worse because of how the various circuits in a carburetor work). If you do the math, then a 455 at 5000 rpm needs exactly 658.275 cubic feet of air per minute at 100% VE. But again, because of how manufacturers rate their carbs that does NOT mean a carb "rated" at 650 cfm will be big enough to not be choking the motor some. It'll probably take a carb 'rated' at 800 to 900 cfm in order to be able to flow an honest 658 without forcing the motor to pull some significant vacuum. Again, Pontiac engineers knew very well what they were doing with they put an "800 CFM" Qjet on the 455 SD.

Cool huh?

Bear


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

jetstang said:


> Plagarism?? Now, back to my question.. My god.. So, they got 475 ft lbs of torque at multiple RPMs, what is the max torque with each change. The story you posted was stuck on 475, not max for each combo, unless they were all limited to 475 ft lbs.. I was asking you the dif, not the author of that novel.. :cheers


LOL... well I guess I did get a little carried away wtih the answer, but the words were all mine  

The point is, nothing was artificially limited. Changing the cam in an engine does NOT change the max torque the motor makes - all it does is change the rpm where max torque occurs by changing the rpm where the engine "breathes" most efficiently. The only reason horsepower changes is because the rpm where peak torque occurs changes --- remember the formula : HP = (torque * RPM) / 5252.

Bear


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Torque being a constant is interesting, never thought of it like that. Stroke defines torque, not CI. Large stroke, small bore makes max torque. Small stroke, large bore makes HP and revs faster.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

WOW this conversation really took off! 

I guess I need to ask questions more often. :lol:

Thanks for all the info Bear, I am a technical type too and I love it when it's broken down to "A + B = C" That's awesome. Now if I can find some way to wait to get this darn engine. I can hardly wait to get it home and start breaking it down. 

Hey on a side note, what do you think the chances are that the safari wagon they are pulling this 455 out of has a posi rear end? I am considering asking the guy to check but if it's a low % chance I won't mess with him. He's been super cool up to now.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Well after doing some homework and reading all of the GREAT info provided by Bear and you other fine posters, I think 400HP / 400 Ft Lbs of torque (in that neighborhood) is realistic numbers I can shoot for. I don't want this car to be a drag strip beast and I really need reliability more than RUNability. So I think I will go with the 6X-4 heads or the 46's Thumping has offered, and the dual quad manifold with a milder cam and forged internals. Is it worth getting a new crank with a kit or is the stock Pontiac crank (80k miles in) capable of holding up under 15-20 MORE years of stress. Cam wise I need this car to support a stock A/C system and hopefully 4 wheel discs. I will sacrifice HP for driveabilitiy and realistic cost figures. I assume machine work on the block + work on the heads alone is gonna be 2k and the kits I am seeing for rebuilds are $1400 - $1800. If I am into this for 4 grand I can deal. (I will still need HEI new alternator, A/C compressor ... etc.) Over that I think I am robbing Peter to pay Paul considering the rest of the things I need to do to the car. (Tranny rebuild, rearend, suspension, brakes oh and the rest of the restoration.)


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Sorry to say, but I think you will be near 500 ft lbs of torque, cant' take that away as proven by bear.. At that power level, there is no reason for forged internals, unless you are going to spray it. Stock worked crank, flat top pistons and new rods should be all you need. 455s don't like RPM, that's why everyone is building the 400 strokers, 461s. Smaller base circle cam oils better and the block is stronger. 
For the wagon, just look on the rear end for a "use limited slip fluid only" metal tab on one of the upper bolts, if it's there, its a posi/ls. Or it "may" be a 12 bolt depending on year, but doubt it. It may have bigger brakes on it being a wagon rear. Many put the wagon springs in their cars front and rear, so they are worth having if it is a low mile car.
AC, they sell the Sanden conversion kit on ebay for $500. Dizzy, same Ebay $60 or so, unless you want a DUI HEI, good one, $200 and worth it. Can the dual quad intake run an HEI, tripower can't.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

jetstang said:


> Torque being a constant is interesting, never thought of it like that. Stroke defines torque, not CI. Large stroke, small bore makes max torque. Small stroke, large bore makes HP and revs faster.


It's all fascinating stuff and that's what makes playing with motors so darn interesting to me. Understanding comes, for me at least, when I keep peeling back the onion and asking "why" and "where does that come from" types of questions.

Fr'instance, the reason long stroke motors make more torque than short stroke motors (of the same displacement) all has to do with mechanical advantage - just like using a 'cheater' to make a wrench longer. The lever arm is longer so, given equal cylinder pressure, the longer stroke motor twists "harder" because it has a longer "wrench handle".

Hold stroke constant however, and the motor with larger displacement (bore) is also going to make more torque. Why... because of larger volume of air/fuel - more fuel to burn - more energy to release - more cylinder pressure - more down force on the piston - more torque even though the "lever arm" is the same length as on the smaller displacement engine. (So there is a relationship between torque and CI)

Hold stroke and displacement both constant, and the motor with more compression is going to make more torque. Why... because higher initial pressure (compression) yields more pressure rise (total pressure) from the same volume of air/fuel.

All the above assumes 100% volumetric efficiency (VE) which naturally aspirated motors generally never achieve. They only get "close" at a specific RPM - the rpm that the cam is tuned for.

I told a little white lie earlier when I said a cam change doesn't change torque - truth is, it can - a little. Here's why: That incoming air/fuel mixture is in motion - flowing - the velocity of the flow determined by a number of factors including the shape, length, and cross-sectional area of the intake port (path through the carb, intake manifold, and head). As rpm goes up, the flow velocity also goes up if things are "right". If everything is "just so" it's possible to do a better job of filling the cylinder at a higher rpm by taking advantage of the flow velocity and the associated inertia/momentum in the moving air/fuel column - sort of "ramming" more air/fuel into the cylinder than would be possible at a lower flow velocity - and as we already know, more fuel volume = more potential energy = more pressure rise when burned = more torque.

That's also why porting a cylinder head is such an exacting art. It's very possible to open up a port "so big" that it kills flow velocity, especially when you consider that the flow through the head is constantly starting/stopping. The bigger the port volume, the more air/fuel mixture is sitting still in it when the intake valve is closed, and the more of it you have to get moving when the valve opens. More volume = more mass = harder to accelerate up to flow velocity = lower flow velocity = less cylinder filling than you had before the "port job" = loss of VE = loss of torque. The trick is getting the port sized and shaped "just right" so that it maximizes cylinder filling - volumetric efficiency (VE) because that's where the motor will make the most possible torque.

Fun stuff...

Bear


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

jetstang said:


> Torque being a constant is interesting, never thought of it like that. Stroke defines torque, not CI. Large stroke, small bore makes max torque. Small stroke, large bore makes HP and revs faster.


Well, to an extent yeah.. but a 400 Pontiac has a 4.12" bore with a 3.75" stroke, a 403 Olds has a 4.35" bore and a 3.385" stroke, they both come out to similar displacements through different means. They also make about the same torque. Another way to look at the same problem is the 455 Pontiac or Olds vs the 454 chevy. The Chevy has a 4" stroke where the Pontiac a 4.21" and the Olds a 4.25", they all produce similar torque numbers in a similar range. The engine either has more surface area to push against, or it has longer travel ni the crank, either way it is leverage.

Where the stroke comes into play in a big way is when the bore is the same, and you increase or decrease the stroke. There is .030 difference between the 400 and 455 Pontiac. The 400 is 4.12, the 455 is 4.15, now adding either a 4", 4.21", or 4.5" crank to a 400 will give it lots more torque, since the bores are pretty much the same. Same thing with the sbc and 3.48 cranks vs 3.75 cranks.

Torque can increase with a cam change, not only move around the RPM range. You can also kill off the torque with cam timing, both at the top and bottom of the rev range. Lots of things come into play with torque production, it isnt really a constant. More airflow, either through cam timing or port flow, will increase torque. Raising or lowering the compression ratio also affects torque. Too much duration and you move the rpm range up at the expense of lower rpm torque. You can improve torque everywhere with a cam sized appropriately for the displacement, airflow, and intended rpm range over a stock cam.

Take your basic 455, and run an 067 or smaller cam in it. It will make pretty good torque down low but fall off, it might make 430-450ftlbs. Go with a slightly larger cam with [email protected] intake duration and it will pick up torque across the board and come closer to 500ftlbs or exceed it in some cases. It is allowing more air in and that increases power to a certain extent. The 067 is a very small cam for a 455, so is an HE262 Comp Cam. they will produce a very smooth idle and be done by 4500 or maybe 5000 rpm. 

A [email protected] cam will have a slight chop in the idle but still make more torque all the way through the rev range. A [email protected] cam will move the rpm range too high and it will kill the bottom end, while the 455 wont have the RPM needed to take advantage of a cam that big so it will be down on power everywhere with stock unported heads.

It depends on what you are starting with and what you do to it that makes the difference. Airflow is everything, compression is important too, but there is lots to building a good running well performing engine.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

*So...too much for the 455 rebuild?*

I LOVE my Pontiac... but is this too gaudy?























































:confused


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Heck no  I like all of those


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> Heck no  I like all of those


I am leaning towards the top ones or the black ones... can't decide.
:confused


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## 68GTO4004Spd (Jun 19, 2008)

The ones with the raised letters and the Pontiac emblem are pricey!!!!!! Hope you like them a whole lot.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

68GTO4004Spd said:


> The ones with the raised letters and the Pontiac emblem are pricey!!!!!! Hope you like them a whole lot.


Eah, less than $200 ... considering I am spending what I am ... might as well do it right. 

I am looking at a fricking $265 200 amp alternator, cause it's what I want power wise, oh that AND it's already orange powder coated. 

NEW CHEVY 200 AMP HIGH OUTPUT ALTERNATOR ONE WIRE 65-85 | eBay


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

love em'....they would look great color filled too...especially the ones with Cheif Pontiac


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Where did you find the bottom covers (Chief Pontiac)?

Thanks
Rick


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Koppster said:


> Where did you find the bottom covers (Chief Pontiac)?
> 
> Thanks
> Rick


PM sent .... enjoy.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

I like the first set, and the last set....check out Tin Indian Performance - Specializing in High Performance Pontiac Parts and Pontiac Engine Building I got a set of plain ones....VERY nice! Eric


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

So I have seen these around town, and I am embarrassed to admit it but I like these wheels, I am interested to find out what the bolt pattern is as well as offset and backspacing. Anyone know how I can find that out?


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Eric Animal said:


> I like the first set, and the last set....check out Tin Indian Performance - Specializing in High Performance Pontiac Parts and Pontiac Engine Building I got a set of plain ones....VERY nice! Eric


Didn't realize we could post links on here.
Yes that's exactly where I found them.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

They are about 10lbs each and are , in my opinion Excellent quality. You will be better off e-mailing Kevin Swaney (the owner) he returns e-mails at night as he is busy racing and working in a noisy shop during the day....good guy....I bought mine with the suggested gaskets, and bolt kit. Eric


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

BearGFR said:


> All the above assumes 100% volumetric efficiency (VE) which naturally aspirated motors generally never achieve.
> *I told a little white lie earlier when I said a cam change doesn't change torque - truth is, it can - a little*.


Wow, yes, based on 100% VE, since most motors, especially smog motors can never achieve that. I guess there is a reason I never heard that before, because nobody attempted to prove that point..:shutme 

Thanks Alky for the good info..

All the valve covers look cool. I hate chrome, it rusts and isn't repairable, so all my stuff gets painted aluminum, you can always recoat/paint it.:cheers


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

*Very Successful Weekend*

Well I made my grand round trip through Southeast Kansas, Southwest Missouri and back home yesterday. And it was one heck of a good day!

I am now the proud owner of a 1979 400, a 1971 455 and a fine TH400 automatic transmission. 





































Oh and did I mention that the 1971 455 is actually one of the nicer ones? Its a YC code 4bbl motor so I have a nice Rochester 4 to rebuild now and who knows I may keep it a single 4 instead of a dual quad. Haven't decided yet. Ya know, go stealth mode and just tell people it's regular old 400 :cool










1971 455 325 HP YC Auto 8.2 CR 7041262 Block Casting # 485428
My date code is A281 

I am very excited and can't wait to start tearing them down. I think the 455 stock would have made a lot more HP if it were not snorkled into a single exhaust. I think that was killing it.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

cool, got all the brackets for the accessories too, those are like gold, decide which you are going to build yet??...:lol:

better yet tell them it's a 326 stroker....:rofl:


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Nice score! :cheers


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Congrats!!
Keep the brackets seperated and take pics of the front as you dissasemble them. Pontiac isn't Chevy and changed the brackets frequently, trust me.. That 455 should be a beast! Just upgrade the rods if you rebuild it, or keep it under 5K RPMs.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Forged rods, pistons, full rebuild kit. 
Beast?
arty:
Yea maybe
:cool

I am so stoked ... I want to tear them apart tonight and get the heads and block ready for the machine shop. It's been such great weather the past few days JUST GREAT CAR BUILDING/DRIVING WEATHER!

Yea I am going to photograph and document the brackets and their placement. (It does have the A/C brackets BTW  ) 

Just can't decide what to do about the intake. If I could find a twin for this carb I'd be real tempted to go ahead and do the dual quads. But honestly, this is a real decent intake set up. I may just leave it be and do a single 4bbl. Save myself $800 in intake and 2nd carb.
SO MANY DECISIONS... :willy:


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Do a nice "beefed up" 455, you'll be happy..........for a while....:cheers


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Pontiacpurebrred said:


> JUST GREAT CAR BUILDING/DRIVING WEATHER!
> Just can't decide what to do about the intake. If I could find a twin for this carb I'd be real tempted to go ahead and do the dual quads. But honestly, this is a real decent intake set up. I may just leave it be and do a single 4bbl. Save myself $800 in intake and 2nd carb.
> SO MANY DECISIONS... :willy:


I would run the single carb, then try the dual quads, that will only last a day and the single will be back on.. Duals get bad MPG and are hard to tune.
Weather is great here also, if you like 95 degrees and 100% humidity, so sick of summer..


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

:agree single carb 455 .030 over, streetable cam that comes on around 1500 RPM, 2.94/3.08 rear end will do 65-70 at 2000 RPM and still have all the torque you need to shred tires down low and i hav'nt even been near 5000 rpm yet. but it all depends on what you want to do with it though. Even the wife asks at the cruises why the chevys sound so loud starting out but are'nt really moving (big cam, big stall) don't think a car like that would be fun to drive for any extended period. We have one of the best motors for street cars, all the power right where you can use it, crisp acceleration for a "Big block" and no one will embarrass you light to light.


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## DukeB-120th (Oct 19, 2009)

This build is going to be awesome. All your stuff is just falling into place!


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Well alrighty then. 

So any recommendations on where to get my block, crank and head machining done? I'd of course prefer someplace local but I do want someplace that's familiar with Pontiac engines and someone I can trust to not only do the machine work but balance the internals. 

The shop I used back in the 80's was someone my grandfather had worked with, and has since closed. 

HELP....anyone know a place I can trust? (Other than sending my block half way across the country?):confused


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Have the wizard do it since you live in Ahhzz.. WHere are you at??:rofl:


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

jetstang said:


> Have the wizard do it since you live in Ahhzz.. WHere are you at??:rofl:


:lol::rofl::lol::rofl::lol::rofl::lol:
That is some funny stuff right there....


I am in the Kansas City area. Happy to do anything within a 50 mile range of the I-435 circle. (As far as local) but ultimately I will send it where I have to to get it done right.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Check with ILikeThat i think he has roots in your area...:cheers

"......if i only had a BRAIN"

Brian


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

St Louis 4 hours east.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Instg8ter said:


> Check with ILikeThat i think he has roots in your area...:cheers
> 
> "......if i only had a BRAIN"
> 
> Brian


Brian and brain are very similar words.....:rofl:


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Ok I have the following books in my Amazon DOT com shopping cart. Let me know if anything else might help with the 455 rebuild.

Thanks!

How to Rebuild and Modify Rochester Quadrajet Carburetors (S-a Design)

How to Rebuild Pontiac V-8s (Sa Design-Workbench)

How to Build Max Performance Pontiac V8s (S-A Design)


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

This one...
BARNES & NOBLE | How to Build Max-Performance Pontiac V-8s by Jim Hand | Paperback

"Our own" Mr. PBody on here wrote the chapter on preparing your short block.

Bear


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> This one...
> BARNES & NOBLE | How to Build Max-Performance Pontiac V-8s by Jim Hand | Paperback
> 
> "Our own" Mr. PBody on here wrote the chapter on preparing your short block.
> ...


But BEAR ....that's ON MY LIST!!! You always recommend that one, I would never think to overlook IT!


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Pontiacpurebrred said:


> But BEAR ....that's ON MY LIST!!! You always recommend that one, I would never think to overlook IT!


Ooops... I missed it somehow - my bad 

(I have an "always" associated with me? Far out... :cheers )

Bear


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> Ooops... I missed it somehow - my bad
> 
> (I have an "always" associated with me? Far out... :cheers )
> 
> Bear


SURE you actually have several different "always" associated with you...like

Bear ALWAYS helps with technical questions about engine builds.
Bear ALWAYS tries to help.
Bear ALWAYS operates in facts, not opinions.
I ALWAYS trust Bear.

Those were the ones off the top of my head...
:lol::rofl:


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

YOGI BEAR....smarter than the average bear Boo-boo!:rofl:


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

My goodness..... I can feel my head expanding already... 


Thanks guys :cheers


Bear


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

+3 Bear...your one of the "go to" guys on this forum....:cheers


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

*Started tearing down the 455 tonight*

This has GOT to be the dirtiest mother (*%&$%#@^&*&) motor I have EVER worked on...on the out side. 









Got to check this manifold code ... is it worth using in the final build?









The rockers, springs and guides were all good...








And believe it or not, the push rods, though a little dirty were all straight. News is getting better and better the deeper in I get.

The lifters and lifter valley was in shockingly good shape...


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

And the best news of all?








The head came off and this my friends, looks to me like a stock bore 455.

































Oh and the cylinder walls look GREAT!
arty:arty:arty:


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Is that crosshatch in the cylinders or just grease rub marks? Nice score, congrats! Pop a piston out, check the ring gap, if it's in specs, check the crank with some plasti gauge, if it's close, run the piss out of it.. Or do a total rebuild and gain a couple HP in a few months.. Fun now or later, lol.. Is that the 455? 
Remember, grease doesn't rust, it preserves.. :cheers


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

jetstang said:


> Is that crosshatch in the cylinders or just grease rub marks? Nice score, congrats! Pop a piston out, check the ring gap, if it's in specs, check the crank with some plasti gauge, if it's close, run the piss out of it.. Or do a total rebuild and gain a couple HP in a few months.. Fun now or later, lol.. Is that the 455?
> Remember, grease doesn't rust, it preserves.. :cheers


Naaa it's not crosshatch it's reflections cause the cylinder walls are like glass yo.
:cool


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

*Weekend is here!*

My books will be here tomorrow, woo hoo! 
I will be pulling the other head, pulling the crank, cam and pistons on the 455 and hopefully getting the heads off the 400 tonight.

I LOVE FRIDAYS, and weekends rock too. 
Hope everyone else is having a great Friday and a better weekend as well. 
arty:arty:arty:
:cheers
:cool


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## 69Goatee (Aug 14, 2009)

Wilhite Auto Service in Derby Kansas is the place to go in this area for Pontiac performance engine service. I have been there a few times, and Tom the owner preped my heads, beautiful!! One time I seen a set of RA-V, yes RAMAIR 5 heads being assembled, And I got to stick almost my entire fist into the intake port, sweet!! If you have the Nov 2011 HPP, look on page 44, he built the Pontiac engine for the red 63 Tempest, and on page 47 thats his wife driving the 10.09 second 58 chieftain. Check out www.wilhiteperformance.net. I also know a good blaster in Hutchinson, if you want to come this far.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

I bought Jim Hands book, but didnt' get through the first chapter, damn.. Def good stuff and great info. Just have to skip to the specific stuff or not be ADD like me.. Worth the time, and you can build a killer 455 based on his info. Loving my Friday, but have to work Sat on OT, so all is good!!


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Man, I miss working OT....I used to split it 58% for me--42% for the tax man...still good money though!


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

*Don't you hate it when things don't work out quite like you planned?*

Well my books DID NOT COME  I wonder WHY the US postal service gets such a bad rap.

I did get some more work done on the 455 but not completely pulled apart yet. Did get the intake manifold and a few of the head bolts out of the 400.

Spent most of my time over the weekend planning and pricing lumber for my new backyard shed/shop. Oh and consolidating all my tools into the new big monster craftsman toolbox that was Rachel's dad's. The one we picked up same day we got the motors. 

So all in all not a BAD weekend per say, I got a lot done, just not what I wanted to get done.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Pontiacpurebrred said:


> ...So all in all not a BAD weekend per say, I got a lot done, just not what I wanted to get done.


I feel your pain.. :cheers

Trick is to learn to roll with it and be flexible. These projects tend to take on a life of their own. :willy:

Bear


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

*Lookie what I found local*

PONTIAC P-65 2X4 INTAKE - $400
This is an original P-65 intake with two 750 cfm AFB carbs. the front carb is a factory chokless carb. 400 obo. would consider trading for other pontiac parts.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

BearGFR said:


> I feel your pain.. :cheers
> 
> Trick is to learn to roll with it and be flexible. These projects tend to take on a life of their own. :willy:
> 
> Bear


:agree:agree Ain't that the truth!:lol:


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Eric Animal said:


> :agree:agree Ain't that the truth!:lol:


I second that! I got the 400 apart...BOY am I glad I found that 455. The 400 is already .030 over AND 2 of the cylinders were rusty. VEEEERRRRRYYY different than the insides of the 455.

God is looking out for Marilyn, I believe that now.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

*Back from the dead*

WOW I got pushed all the way back to the 3rd page?!?! I guess I should check in more often than every 6 weeks. 

Well Marilyn has been on hold for a little while, first because I was doing some camping around the holiday and we decided to get the boat out ...oh I had to BUY the boat first but none the less, it was a fun distraction and a nice chance to step back from pounding on the goat and trying to figure out what to do next. We also got my wife's car traded in on a new SUV, she's wanted one for years so we are both happy about that, her because she got what she wanted, me cause I am happy she got what I wanted  2008 Ford Explorer Limited with about 40K miles has the 4.6 V8 so we now OWN something big enough to haul parts and Marilyn if need be. (more on the process of finding a used car later....what a mess GM has become)

Than the unthinkable happened. I was driving home from work a couple weeks ago and a 17yr old cheerleader decided my lane was more attractive than hers even though I WAS STILL OCCUPYING IT! :shutme










SO I have been fighting with insurance for 2 weeks, and I still get stiffed with the deductible since there were no witnesses and it's he said she said....
The last time I got in accident (or even got a ticket of any kind) this girl was in grade school, maybe diapers.... BUT I STILL HAVE TO PAY .... where's the justice?

But I get her back today after nearly a week in the body shop so I will try to smile and be happy. 

Back to Marilyn in the near future.

That is all.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Bro, it coulda been worse......I have a friend, who has a sweet 68 GTO, just restored....last summer, on its first drive to a local morning beach "drive and gawk", a female in a Caddy Escalade, while blabing into a zombiephone, wailed his GTO in the same spot you took a hit. Only hard enough to bend the chassis, ruin the endura bumper, and hideaways, destroy the fender buckle the hood, pop the tire and ruin the rallye I wheel.........Joe is a nice kind hearted Italian kid....it took 4 cops to calm him down.......The GTO went back into the Body shop, and 20K later (thanks Haggerty) looks like new. .....Your baby will be fine!:cheers Eric


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Back from the dead. 

Thanks for the well wishes Uncle E. And it fact it could have been much worse, luckily ONE of the drivers involved knew how to drive and did his best to avoid the accident. (I mean me ) 

So the 05 is all fixed ($500 deductible later) and after back yard shed's having to be demolished and rebuilt, stuffing my garage full of crap, winter coming (sort of) and going I am cleaning out the garage and getting this restoration back on track. 










I found (ok the wife found) the 69 valence I was missing - real nice one too and it should be arriving this week. 










As always, I have a question....

I am wanting to get the 455 on a stand and I know I asked this somewhere before but can't find it. What thread size bolts do I need to thread into the transmission bolt holes to get that some bit*h up on the stand? And secondly how much depth do I want to thread into the block? The mounts are 2 inches so do I want 3 inch bolts? 3.5? 4? and yea I know a bunch of washers to make sure it's good and snug. 

Excited to back at it after MONTHS... :willy:
arty:

Thanks as always!
S


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

likethat said:


> 3/8 16 bolts for chains and stand. As for the engine stand you need them to be the thickness of the flange on the stand plus 3/4 of an inch. You can add washes at the head of the bolt if they are to long. If you have a Menard's they have a much better bolt selection for length and type, then Lowe's and Home Depot. I go to a local tool supplier for my bolts. He has a better selection then most hardware stores. The factory bolts that you use on the tranny to the block with some washers will work well for the chain. You can bolt them in to the front sides and back side of the heads across the block at an angle.



AHHHHH found it, thanks again likethat!


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Woo Hoo 
arty:

Back at it all weekend long. Sure feels good. 
So the 455 is down to a bare block and on the stand ready to head off to the machine shop. Need to finish pulling the heads apart. 
The bearings all looked real good save for a couple that looked a little "burned" but pretty sure I could have strapped this 455 in and rode it for another 50,000 miles if I'd wanted to. 
Crank is in great shape and I am wondering if anyone has opinions on if I should reuse it or if I should go for a new crank as part of a rebuild kit. 

That was Saturday.

Sunday was sanding day, we started on the spot behind the drivers side back window that looked full of putty. Sadly, I still think there is a BUNCH of putty in there. Not sure what happened but we sanded and sanded and sanded and we have found metal above it, to the right of it and below it but there is a sea of putty in between I wish I knew what happened here. I will post some pics up in the next day or two.

But I am interested to see what you guys think about the crank question and additionally, is there a quicker way to get through this putty? I have 180 grit sanding discs and they seem to work great on the multiple layers of paint and primer but we worked for a couple hours on that one spot and STILL seems like a ways to go. Should I go to 80 grit just to get through the putty?

Thanks as always!


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## FlambeauHO (Nov 24, 2011)

I say give the crank to the machine shop, have it mic'd and reuse it. Mine didn't even need to be turned and it had never been rebuilt.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

:agree on the crank, can still use it even if it needs to go down .010-.020 as long as your not gonna push it over 500HP, since your replacing bearings anyways.

use 80 grit disks to cut through the deep bondo or 3M coarse mesh wheel (will cut the bondo but not take away as much metal on the edges)


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Crank looks brand new
I mean really the inside of this motor has not stopped amazing me. And I have heard the Pontiac 455 cranks were pretty solid. 

As far as going North of 500 HP it's doubtful. Thinking forged rods and pistons but basically a mild rebuild ... This will not be a race car, just a nice solid muscle car. Can't afford at this point to go crazy with it. I will be building for durability and longevity not all out performance. 

Thanks for the tips on the 3M coarse stripping wheel, looks good and I think I will try it. 
:cheers


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

if it looks good take it in and have them mic it, may just need a polish and you can stick with std bearings.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Here is a picture of the crank, still trying to get my sanding pics uploaded. 










There are bits of ick on it from the outside of the block. It's currently setting on the floor below the block on the stand, it looks like there are errors on the crank but honestly it's glassy smooth.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

only way to be safe is have them put a micrometer to it and if in tolerance polish it....that is what defines your bearing clearances for oil pressure and even polishing removes a little material...if out of spec just have them cut it .010 under and get +.010 bearings.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

*Oh boy is there putty.*

Still working on "The Putty". After sanding and sanding and sanding some more, we had a chunk fall out. We discovered that it's about an inch thick at the deepest point in the middle. (I got out the electric chisel and did some digging) 

I will post pics of the process but we are still trying to get it all out of there. It goes from just behind the back window to maybe middle of wheel well from the wheel well to about 6 inches from the top of the quarter. 

I assume from what I have uncovered that there was a HUGE dent and they may or may not have tried to pull it and gave up and putty'd the hell out of it. 
:willy:

More to come.


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## FlambeauHO (Nov 24, 2011)

Same body Guy l had lol


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## OrbitOrange (Jul 5, 2010)

Ill tell you what I found that removed bondo pretty fast and easy if your wanting it all out. I used a propane/map gas torch heat that plastic bondo up and a puddy knife and it came out easy !


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