# The Beast has a Runny Nose



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Well... fiddle faddle..

Over the last month, I've noticed that whenever I start it up cold I get lots of "white cloud". That didn't bother me a whole lot at first, but then I realized it was also doing it on a hot-restart, like after stopping for gas. It'll make a steam cloud for a few seconds before the exhaust cleans up.

Last night I played "D ick Tracy" and found that I've got coolant showing up in the exhaust system on the passenger side. I haven't finished all the detective work yet, but it's looking like I've got a water passage leak into at least one exhaust port on the passenger side head.

I bought these heads 15 or so years ago from a guy who'd been running them on a 10.90 Firebird race car until he grenaded the motor. He told me at the time that he'd ported the heads and had ground through an intake port, but had patched it and subsequently run the heads for a season after that with no problems. Well, that made me nervous but I bought them anyway just because of what they are - real #722 Ram Air IV's. I had them pressure tested before building the motor for the Beast and they tested fine so I thought I was out of the woods on that. Turns out, maybe not. 

I've been looking into possible solutions. One is to pull the head and find a competent welder. That one's scary because if the problem is, as I suspect it might be, that the previous owner "almost" ground through an exhaust port and now it's developed a pinhole leak due to heat cycling, then the metal is going to be really thin over a large area and trying to weld it might just blow a BIG hole through the port and ruin the head forever. The other solution I'm considering is using this stuff to try to seal the leak. Normally I really don't like "snake oil" solutions but so far all my research, including first-hand references from people who've used it (thanks Jeff!) seems to indicate this stuff has a good chance of working and being a permanent fix. I've got some on order. We'll see how it goes.

Please wish me luck. I'm not one of those fortunate people who has or has had a stable full of cool cars. This is it - my one and only - the car I've had since I was in college and have wanted to finish building and drive (and felt guilty over because I couldn't get it done) for more than 20 years. I sure don't want to "lose" it now.

Bear


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## FlambeauHO (Nov 24, 2011)

Best of luck! Maybe it won't end up being a pinhole in the head, or if it is maybe there will be ample metal to weld to around it. ill cross my fingers!


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Sorry to hear this Bear, hopefully it's not what you think.......... any sign of rust on the plugs?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I haven't pulled them yet to look, Alky. I'll do that tonight if there's time.

BTW, I keep getting really appreciative comments on "your" lock knobs and valve stem caps. :cheers

Bear


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

That really is bad news! I will definitely keep my fingers and toes crossed for you and hope all ends up well. If not I am hoping you won't give up. I am sure there are heads out there for ya if you have to go the WCS route and replace. You've waited far too long and worked far too hard to let this get in your way.

GOOD LUCK!


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## Joe'sToy (Mar 9, 2012)

Wishing you the best of luck as well.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Bear, I HOPE you aren't getting any coolant in your oil!!!! Some of the sealers (the link wouldn't open for me) are very good. Meanwhile, GOOD LUCK!!! Maybe a bad gasket?? Eric


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Sorry. Pull the head, take it to a competent machinist. If it's thin, have it welded up. Good luck, no snake oil for that bad boy, that stuff may work on 7:1 motors, but not worth it for your car. R&R of the heads is 2 good nights and you'll be cruising again!!


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

After soul-searching and consulting, I've decided the right path is in fact to pull the head and get it welded.

The process that was recommended to me by someone I trust (Jim) is something called "spray welding". I'm not familiar with the process, or what other names it might be known by, so I might need some help finding a shop that can do it and do it right.

Is anyone here familiar with the term "spray welding" and can suggest how I might go about finding a shop, or better yet - know of a shop in the Dallas Texas area who can do it on cast iron and do it right?

Thanks,
Bear


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

read an article on it some time ago, best stated it is like spray painting with metal to build up thin areas without blowing through

MIG Welding Procedures, Mig Spray Weld, Transfer Steels over 4 mm

sounds like the best permanent solution, check machine shops in the area they should know someone with the knowledge and equipment. You'll have the beast back on the road in no time without the worry of having it fail on you...:cheers


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

With what little I do know about this process ^ I'm not sure it's applicable here as we are talking about cast iron. I've seen this process used to "metalize" or build up undersized shafts and such.

If anyone would know how to repair these rare and valuable heads it would be my friend Bob Stiegemeier. Give him a call and tell him whats up and he can maybe make some suggestions, he has over 30 years experience with cylinder heads. Stiegemeier Porting Services, LLC - Supercharger Rebuild and Repair or 636-949-2275. Tell him John with the blown GTO refered you :cheers.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

I've heard of it, it is called Metalizing...or Flame spraying. It works well in certain applications.....


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Still trying to find someone in the Dallas area who is skilled at the process --- driving me nuts.

Bear


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

Bear, 
I'm sure your search just got a lot harder today with the massive tornado and storms that rocked the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex. Hope you (and all your fellow Texans) are doing okay, we'll be thinking of you. Best of luck with the Beast and the storm recovery.
Dave


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

We're ok here ---- my wife's Cadillac CTS (which I had driven to work yesterday) got the crap beat out of it in the parking lot (my office is near DFW airport), but we're otheriwise ok.

Thanks for the wishes...

Looks like Blaine's Motor Supply here can do spray welding -- now I've just got to decide whether to go that route or try the sealant first. Right now, I'm leaning towards going straight to welding but I'm sure nervous about taking the chance and letting someone else touch this head... :willy:

Bear


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## 1974GTO (Oct 4, 2011)

Yell, good luck Bear. Hoping the best for you.
As it seams I might be in the same seat as you. I just got back from a cruise. Its the first time this has happened to me. I was going about 70mph and looked in the rear view and noticed a fairly large cloud of white. I kind of knew it had something to do with coolant. After I got home I did research and sure enough.
To my understanding it could mean a warn out head gasket (hoping) cracked head or cracked cylinder.
I got this car from my father passing and always loved it, I can get rid of it. Don't really have the funds to get it fixed.
Not too sure where to start looking. I understand checking the dipstick for green color for the coolant or if it looks like chocolate milk. How do you know if its passenger side or driver side?
I thought it was too good. Last couple summers I had no problems and now...


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

You should be able to tell which side by looking at the plugs. When I blew a headgasket in a boat, one of the plugs looked almost new . At the very least, you should find a plug that looks different from the rest....


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## 1974GTO (Oct 4, 2011)

68greengoat said:


> You should be able to tell which side by looking at the plugs. When I blew a headgasket in a boat, one of the plugs looked almost new . At the very least, you should find a plug that looks different from the rest....


Alight cool thanks alot.


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## 1974GTO (Oct 4, 2011)

I was just wandering, with the white cloud happening at high speeds, would it be fine to drive the car casually? Or should I just let it sit?
I really want to drive it!


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

I'd recommend a leakdown test after checking the plugs and maybe a coolant system pressure test. I would'nt drive it until you've diagnosed the problem and how serious it is.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

:agree If the white cloud doesn't stop (mine does), then that means you're getting coolant at least into the exhaust all the time, and maybe into the chamber - and into the oil. Oil contamination is what makes this situation really bad because it can result in damaged bearings.

I wouldn't drive it until you know FOR CERTAIN that you're not getting coolant into your oil.

It can be a question of degree. I'm told that if the oil takes on a murky/cloudy "milkshake" or "root beer" look, then it's contaminated. If it keeps an "oil" look (clear and "oil colored" on the dipstick and you can still easily see the markings on the dipstick looking -through- the oil) then you may be ok. Still though, this is one of those deals where it's definitely better to be safe.

Bear


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## 1974GTO (Oct 4, 2011)

ALKYGTO said:


> I'd recommend a leakdown test after checking the plugs and maybe a coolant system pressure test. I would'nt drive it until you've diagnosed the problem and how serious it is.


Yeah, ok thanks.
No idea what any of those are, but thanks to google I shall look into it.

Bear, my smoke didn't start till high speeds. And it did stop


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Welp, got the head pulled and stripped last night. It's definitely #6. The piston top in that hole looks like it's been steam cleaned - which of course it has. I found at least one intake valve stem seal that's got a nick in it too, it's good I went a-"head"  and pulled it.

Bear


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

how did the head gasket look? What kind of gasket did you use? Did you use any kind of sealant on it or install dry? Have you put a straight edge on the head to see if it's flat? I'm assuming of course that you had the heads milled when the valve job and everything was done. Trying to help you with the detective work and maybe save you some time, grief and dough. :cheers


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

ALKYGTO said:


> how did the head gasket look? What kind of gasket did you use? Did you use any kind of sealant on it or install dry? Have you put a straight edge on the head to see if it's flat? I'm assuming of course that you had the heads milled when the valve job and everything was done. Trying to help you with the detective work and maybe save you some time, grief and dough. :cheers


Cometic gasket and it looked nearly new. The shop has already found the crack and they don't think it's weldable because the metal is too thin. However they do think they can pin it and seal it, so we're going that route. It's a split about a half inch wide "above" the seat and parallel to it. As I suspected the previous owner got a little over zealous with the grinder. 

Bear


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Why not just sell em and put a pair of Aluminum heads from Edelbrock, KRE or the tiger heads and put the rest of the money in the bank?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I s'pose I could do that, Alky. It's funny how sometimes I get tunnel vision about things. I've been so focused on saving these heads that I hadn't even considered selling them to finance some aluminum ones.

Something to consider. There's something about having them I really like - their rareness makes the car out of the ordinary.

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Had a friend with an original engined '65 GTO that had a cracked block...it was a nasty crack caused by freezing with straight water in the cooling system. He had it pinned and sealed, and it never gave any further problems....with aluminum heads, you'd have no repairs to "worry" about, but you'd also have the thermal inefficiency to deal with if the CR was kept the same. Aluminum heads might make less power unless the CR was upped by a point or so....


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Yeah, I talked that over with Jim. With my current setup, I could go with 72 cc chambers, .035 (or even .030) head gaskets to get my quench back (!!!), and I'd be sitting at 10.2:1 ---- just about right for aluminum.

I'll keep that plan in my hip pocket in case I ever decide I want "more".

Bear


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Update: Head is back and repaired. I've had some adventures since then though, beginning with the valve stem seals. From the crap on the back sides of the intakes, I could tell they were leaking already - which they shouldn't have been considering how new this motor is. Turns out the bottoms of the retainers were hitting the tops of the seals because the valve guide tops were too tall. 
Of course I found this last Saturday after all the places where I might have been able to buy a cutter to fix them were closed. Luckily though a friend of mine in the local Pontiac club had one and let me borrow it. I used it to trim down the tops of the guides to get clearance for the new seals, then I got the head back on. 
I figured the drivers side head was going to have the same issue with seals and too-tall valve guides though, so I pulled it. Sure enough, they needed trimming too.
It gets better.
In the process of cleaning and re-polishing all the valves, I discovered that #1 intake valve was bent?!? Then it occurred to me. Awhile back when verifying the TDC markings on the balancer, I'd used a piston stop in the process and had forgotten to back off the rockers on #1, and the intake had run into the stop. It hadn't dawned on me at the time that it could have bent the valve - but it did.  
Soooo Monday I took it the head and the bent valve back to the machine shop so they could replace and fit a new valve.

I picked up the head this afternoon, so at the moment I'm in the process of putting it all back together.

With luck, it'll be running again by the weekend. :cheers

Bear


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Nice finds, hope it will all be good when you get it back together. Makes sense, stock seals and high lift cam was never in the design.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Bear, you're a bonafide engine guy, now. Great find on the bent valve. Very easy to miss this type of thing. BTDT!! I'm wondering: were your dyno numbers produced with the bent valve? if so, figure on more HP after the fix.....Good luck on the re-assemble. Can't wait to hear the outcome.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I don't -think- so, I think I did that little trick after the dyno day. I do good to remember what I did yesterday though, so it's possible.

Taking a break right now.. I just finished adjusting the valves and buttoning up the accessory brackets. Still need to plop on the intake, valve covers, connect up the exhaust, then change the oil and fill the cooling system. 

Funny how you notice things after you find a problem - looking at the carb throat it's obvious it was blowing combustion gasses back through it on the drivers side.  Duh...

Bear


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Well, alrighty then...

The Beast Lives...... arty:

It's sitting out in the garage warming up as we speak. So far, so good.



... just took it for a very short drive. Man I needed that :cheers

Bear


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

:cheers:cheers:cheers


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

arty: Celebratory burnout please!


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The irony of the whole thing is that you had no inkling that it was running on 7+ cylinders from a power and drive-ability standpoint. It produces so much power, if it were not for the coolant loss, you'd never have known!! If any "normal" V8 drops a cylinder, you tend to notice instantly!!! Here's to the longevity of The Beast! (or, The Black Sixty-Nine!)


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

It sure feels stronger.... now when rolling along about 20-25 mph I can roll into the power and break the tires loose --- in 2nd gear 

Jeff your idea about using headless bolts to guide the heads back onto the deck was pure genius. That made leaning over a fender and trying to "stab" a heavy cast iron head back onto the dowel pins a can't miss proposition, especially on the drivers side where I had to manuver it around the master cylinder/hyrdoboost. I was only able to use one front "guide bolt" on that side due to said mc/booster but still that made the job easy. I lowered it onto the front bolt with the back end of the head swung "up" towards the valley, eased it down the bolt until it was low enough to clear everything, then swung it back down and lined it up then finished dropping it onto the deck. No muss, no fuss, and absolutly zero side loading on the head gasket in the process.
Thanks again sir...

I went to a local gearhead hangout Drivein last night and had a great time. I spotted a couple of guys standing next to an Iris Mist 65 4-speed that I'd seen at a show earlier in the day, and went over to meet them. The owner's name was Kelly, the other guy turned out to be Floyd Hand - brother of Jim Hand, the guy who put together the book "How to Build Max Performance Pontiac V8's". How cool was that?

Speaking of shows, Hey Eric... at the show yesterday I saw a Firebird that made me think of you.. photos below (this guy won the class that I was entered in - deservedly so)

















Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Great news, Bear. The headless bolt trick was relayed to me by my boss, who worked at a Pontiac dealership in the late '60's-early '70's. I learned of it after I had a head slide off the dowel pin and ruin a brand new head gasket on a re-install job. It is a bulletproof method of only having to buy ONE set of head gaskets, as those old iron heads are HEAVY when doing an "in car" replacement. The great thing about this forum is that it's filled with money and time saving ideas contributed by all sorts of folks, and that a vast bank of experience is a benefit to everybody. Glad your ride is running as it should!


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Bear, Happy to hear that Beast is all better! Thanks for the motovational photo!!!! Eric :cheers


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## facn8me (Jul 30, 2011)

Sweet. Glad to hear. Wonder what it will run like on all 8.... VAROOOOOOMMMMM


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Hey Bear,

Glad to hear it's all back together and running on all EIGHT this time. 

Waiting for the new video of it running and burning rubber off those tires. 

arty:


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Well :::: ---- it's leaking again. I went to a show Saturday (and got a nice "Class Winner" trophy), but found that the repair has apparently come undone.

 :shutme 

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

You just ruined my day. That absolutely _sux_. Time for new heads. No way should you go thru all that labor and expense again only to worry about "next time". Crap........


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

geeteeohguy said:


> You just ruined my day. That absolutely _sux_. Time for new heads. No way should you go thru all that labor and expense again only to worry about "next time". Crap........


Sorry about your day...

Yeah, I've about decided it's time to call Jim and get a set on the way from Magic Dave.
Now I've just got to talk Mrs Bear out of the cash...

Bear


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

What heads are you going for Bear?!? 

So sorry to hear of your bad luck friend. Any hope at all of saving these rare castings?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Hey Alky...

If I replace them, I'll buy a set of Edelbrock round ports, 72'cc, ported, modified, and prepped by Dave Wilcox at CVMS. Heck, they'll make more power than what I'm running now... 

I'm sort of in a time crunch now, with the Power Tour about a month away (I've already registered). 

I'll probably at some point ship the #722's off to Jim to see if any of shops he knows is willing to attempt to spray weld them. The one shop in the Dallas area I found who claimed to be able to do the process wasn't willing to try - they said the metal was too thin to weld - so they did the pin repair which has just failed.
No one around here knows how to repair anything anymore, there's too much money I guess - they just "buy another one".

I did meet a guy at the show Saturday who claims to have a set of new and never run 68 1/2 Ram Air II's. Those things are even more rare (and made more power) than the Ram Air IV's, but I'm sure he'd want more for them than the prepped E-heads would cost me, and besides the cool thing about having the #722's was that I could pass it off as "stock" to the uninformed...  

I could try the ceramic sealer still, but even if it appeared to work I'd always be wondering if it was about to fail again - plus once you put that stuff in your cooling system, there's no turning back.

There's a lot to like about the E-head route. With 72 cc chambers and the way the rest of the motor is set up currently, I could lose the fat gaskets I'm having to run now and go to .035", or even .030" and be at 10.2:1 - get some quench back into the motor - and probably make quite a bit more power. These 722's flowed 282 cfm at .600" lift, while Dave's E-heads are around 325  and those are just the peaks. I'm betting his mid-lift numbers are a lot better than mine.

Bear


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Bear, Sorry to hear about the leak. If time is a factor, try Butler Performance....they have a lot of stuff in stock. Eric :willy:


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Bear, not only are the numbers better for the aluminum heads, but you'll also be paring about 100 pounds of dead weight off the front end of your car....which = better launch and weight transfer. So, more _actual_ HP, and less HP needed to _move_ the car, which will be lighter. Win-win....


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Bear,

So sorry to hear about your bad, gets worse luck. Nothing worse than someone who's worked as hard and as long as you have having this kind of situation. Sad that a pair of real RA IV heads might have seen their last run too. 

Here's to hoping Mrs. Bear lets you get some nice E heads and put this whole mess behind you.

Gotta be honest though, the RA II heads would be a lot of fun too, if I were you I'd definitely look into those and see if they would be .... affordable. 

All the best man, hope your luck turns around.
:cheers

Scott


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

geeteeohguy said:


> Bear, not only are the numbers better for the aluminum heads, but you'll also be paring about 100 pounds of dead weight off the front end of your car....which = better launch and weight transfer. So, more _actual_ HP, and less HP needed to _move_ the car, which will be lighter. Win-win....


Yeah, there's a lot to like about that. According to the "analyzer" programs I have and just taking a SWAG at the head flow numbers at various lifts, it could pick up around 20-25 HP. That and the weight difference could account for as much as .2 - .3 off the ET, under optimum conditions (dead hook and "perfect" shift points).

Then too the E-heads have hardened seats - and I get my quench back. 

Bear


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Spoke with Jim today - they're coming along nicely. Now that I've come to terms with "losing" those 722's I'm beginning to get excited about these particular E-heads. 

It's going to be tight, getting it back together and ready to go on the Power Tour. Then there's the race the following weekend to be decided upon. I'd wanted to get in some track time before then just to get familiar with the car, but that's not likely to happen now. We'll see....

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Thanks for the update. You'll get it all pulled together in time!


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Well........ looks like the clock has all but run out on me. Chances are that the heads aren't going to make it here in time for the Power Tour or the Pontiac Southern Nationals.

Oh well... 


Bear


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## twotone '64 (Jun 2, 2012)

a really competent welder should be able to add metal without blowing holes even if there is a very thin membrane to reinforce. Use a torch with real good control over gas flow rate. You need to start with a tiny flame to build from the thick parts to the thin parts without getting too hot, then increase the flame as you get more metal built up. I've done it on body panels and the only hard part is not heat warping the panel. You won't have that problem on a head because of the mass. Steel is easy, aluminum, not so easy, but it can be done.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Heads are being shipped out today, express, so there's a chance they could show up some time Friday. That would give me at least a shot at getting it up and running in time for the show on Saturday --- if I pull an all nighter :willy: 

Chances are slim to none that my wheels will get here though so there's maybe a 0.0001% chance of me making the race on Sunday. 

Twotone, that's been my problem all along: finding a "competent welder" who can work on cast iron. You'd think that in a city the size of Dallas Texas that'd be easy, but it sure hasn't been. I've even contacted race shops like Reher and Morrison who are local to me (more or less), and not only can't they do it, they don't know anyone who can. Frustrating - 

Bear


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

The mailman is my new best friend!!!!! :cheers

...Bear has heads... arty:

Bear


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## facn8me (Jul 30, 2011)

Kick Ass!!!


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## Joe'sToy (Mar 9, 2012)

Awesome! arty:


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

.........Now _call in sick _and install 'em!!!! Right NOW!!!!! YAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Good thing you found that bent valve, cause the next thing would have happened would the valve head bust off and get chewed up by your new piston!!
I've used that ceramic sealer in the past with great success.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

geeteeohguy said:


> .........Now _call in sick _and install 'em!!!! Right NOW!!!!! YAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!


Didn't have to - I was already on vacation because I was planning on joining up with the Power Tour.  

I have news...






arty:


Bear


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## facn8me (Jul 30, 2011)

SWeetttt!!!!


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