# So I am going to build a "Stroker"



## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Well after reading up not only here but across the net I think I would like to go ahead and build a 461-467 stroker out of the 400 I will be acquiring in about 10 days. I have seen several offerings around the net with stroker kits and I am wondering if that's the route to go and if so if there is a preferred dealer or brand of parts I should be looking for. I know there are several people on the boards that are running the stroker motor so I would love some feedback on where you got your parts, what you like and why. I am putting together my parts list and want to have a ballpark number of what I will be spending on my rebuild. (It's always nice to start with a free 400 block and heads to keep those costs down )
So chime in ya'll I know you always have lots to say on the matter so hit me up I am interested to see what you guys think.

Also on a side note, as some of you know I am quite enamored with the dual quad manifolds, I am interested to see what kind of cam would work well with a dual quad (2 500 cfm carbs) on the stroker set up with the 6X (4) heads ported and polished. (If at all)

Thanks as always.
S


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

You have chosen wisely.

Jim Lehart (Mr. P Body) has his shop in Virginia, I'm in Texas. I built my own and had the block machine work done at a local race engine shop (Kim Barr Racing engines), but I bought my internals and most of everything else from Jim. He also balanced everything and did some additional machining on the pistons that were specific to my combination. Jim likes Eagle rotating assemblies and uses Comp Cams, Scorpion, and Howards valve train components. He also helped me a great deal with the planning and selection.

Be sure to keep the rest of your drive train in mind --- i.e. rear end, gearing, tranny, converter, suspension, etc. --- everything has to be both strong enough and configured correctly to work well with your motor's power band.

Bear


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> You have chosen wisely.
> 
> Jim Lehart (Mr. P Body) has his shop in Virginia, I'm in Texas. I built my own and had the block machine work done at a local race engine shop (Kim Barr Racing engines), but I bought my internals and most of everything else from Jim. He also balanced everything and did some additional machining on the pistons that were specific to my combination. Jim likes Eagle rotating assemblies and uses Comp Cams, Scorpion, and Howards valve train components. He also helped me a great deal with the planning and selection.
> 
> ...


As always Bear, I very much appreciate your wisdom and experience. I will give Jim a call about the engine components. 

As far as drive train, I am in the market for an M-21 4-speed to mate to my engine, or maybe a newer 5 speed depending. Also in the market for a 12 bolt posi and if you have a gear suggestion I am all ears. 

Will that work with this sort of torque and hp? Additionally will I need a special drive shaft or will a stock one suffice?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Gearing depends on intended use to a great extent. For a street cruiser that sees occasional trips to the strip and only limited highway use, these strokers seem to like gearing in the general vicinity of 3.50. That's a tad on the low side though if you're going to do a lot of highway driving. For a rear end in my car I bought a new Moser 9" Ford from Spohn Engineering made to fit my car with Moser 31-spline axles, a nodular center section, and Wavetrac posi unit. What made me choose the 9" over the 12 bolt were two things: NHRA and others require c-clip eliminators in 12 bolts yet when I looked none of the c-clip eliminator kits were recommended for street use, and also the relative ease of changing gear ratios in a 9" by swapping center sections. Plus, the 9" is stronger than the 12-bolt (but also has slightly more parasitic drag). I also had Spohn make me a drive shaft, since re-using the original wasn't an option for me with the 9".
This is another one of those "it depends" deals. If you're planning on just crusing and generally being 'gentle' with the car, even the 10-bolt would probably be fine. If you plan to race it some and also will be working the suspension to try to get the car to hook, then something stronger is probably a requirement - definitely with sticky tires/slicks.

Running a 4 speed makes your choices wider for gearing since you don't have to worry about matching up a converter. A newer 5 (or 6) speed with overdrive, if you can swing that, would allow you to get closer to having it all --- strip performance and highway use. It's a variation of what Indy winner A.J. Foyt once said: "Speed is just a question of money. How fast do you want to go?" I orginially had a Gear Vendors Overdrive in my build budget for the same reason - so I could hit either the Interstate or the Quarter Mile - but when reality hit I gave it up in favor of other things - for now 


Bear


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Yea, I'd love a 5 or 6-speed upgrade. :cheers


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> Gearing depends on intended use to a great extent. For a street cruiser that sees occasional trips to the strip and only limited highway use, these strokers seem to like gearing in the general vicinity of 3.50. That's a tad on the low side though if you're going to do a lot of highway driving. For a rear end in my car I bought a new Moser 9" Ford from Spohn Engineering made to fit my car with Moser 31-spline axles, a nodular center section, and Wavetrac posi unit. What made me choose the 9" over the 12 bolt were two things: NHRA and others require c-clip eliminators in 12 bolts yet when I looked none of the c-clip eliminator kits were recommended for street use, and also the relative ease of changing gear ratios in a 9" by swapping center sections. Plus, the 9" is stronger than the 12-bolt (but also has slightly more parasitic drag). I also had Spohn make me a drive shaft, since re-using the original wasn't an option for me with the 9".
> This is another one of those "it depends" deals. If you're planning on just crusing and generally being 'gentle' with the car, even the 10-bolt would probably be fine. If you plan to race it some and also will be working the suspension to try to get the car to hook, then something stronger is probably a requirement - definitely with sticky tires/slicks.
> 
> Running a 4 speed makes your choices wider for gearing since you don't have to worry about matching up a converter. A newer 5 (or 6) speed with overdrive, if you can swing that, would allow you to get closer to having it all --- strip performance and highway use. It's a variation of what Indy winner A.J. Foyt once said: "Speed is just a question of money. How fast do you want to go?" I orginially had a Gear Vendors Overdrive in my build budget for the same reason - so I could hit either the Interstate or the Quarter Mile - but when reality hit I gave it up in favor of other things - for now
> ...





Rukee said:


> Yea, I'd love a 5 or 6-speed upgrade. :cheers


Well honestly this car *could* be built all show and no go, *BUT* I refuse to have a car that does not hold it's own .... out of sheer principle. This car will never go to the strip, probably never even be road raced. Will be babied, loved and garaged. I do want to take it on route 66 someday so it needs to be highway ready and capable. It's a cruiser, a weekend toy and occasional local car show car. 

*BUT I REQUIRE IT HAVE HP .... TORQUE .... AND BALLS.....*
It *IS *a *GOAT *after all.

And if I can find a 5 or 6 speed that will bolt up and handle the power I am all in, but I am not versed in even what to look for at this point. Any assistance appreciated.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

For GOOD tranny info try Paul Cangialosi at Medatronics Corporation's 5 Speed Home page! he is a good friend of mine and wrote a book on transmissions. He also builds "heavy duty" stuff! Eric


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## freethinker (Nov 14, 2009)

Pontiacpurebrred said:


> As always Bear, I very much appreciate your wisdom and experience. I will give Jim a call about the engine components.
> 
> As far as drive train, I am in the market for an M-21 4-speed to mate to my engine, or maybe a newer 5 speed depending. Also in the market for a 12 bolt posi and if you have a gear suggestion I am all ears.
> 
> Will that work with this sort of torque and hp? Additionally will I need a special drive shaft or will a stock one suffice?


while it might be cool to have a 4 speed an old muncie m21 wont live behind a strong pontiac engine. they couldnt take the abuse even when we had skinny tires. i must have broken a couple dozen of them over the years and they are getting too valuable now. actually pontiacs work best with automatics.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

I don't agree. I've been pounding on my stock 4 speed for over 17 years, and besides a rebuild when it wouldn't shift into 4th under WOT, it's beed a rock.


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## freethinker (Nov 14, 2009)

Rukee said:


> I don't agree. I've been pounding on my stock 4 speed for over 17 years, and besides a rebuild when it wouldn't shift into 4th under WOT, it's beed a rock.


what do you consider "pounding"? the muncies were rated for around 350-400 lbs torque. i would assume the op is shooting for a bit more than that if he wants to spend the money on a stroker. you think?


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Pounding?? Well, I drive it 3 hours to the drag strip, run it all day on race fuel, then drive it 3 hours home again.
..and we all know the GTO engines were under rated in the HP/torque output.


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

I broke a ST10 with a 455, and the M21 the 70 came with was not healthy when I got it, the 455 ate it one day. Since then the 455 in the GTO has killed a th350, hurt two th400s and blown past the clutches on a couple 2004Rs. 

If you want to go with a manual, then you are looking at a built T56 or a TKO500, a TKO600 would be better...

But if you plan to drive like a grandma, no speed shifting, and no drag passes, then any old 4 speed will do. I like the ST10 and they bolt right in. Beat on it and it will break eventually. I havent lunched a 10bolt yet, and they have been in heavy cars with lots of torque and highway gears. In other words they have been stressed in my cars. 

9" and 12 bolts are nice, but no need to go that route unless you start breaking things. I have a 12bolt in the 70 now, because I got the housing from a friend for $150, I rebuilt it with 3.42 gears and an Eaton locking diff. I have about $850 in that rear and it holds up easily, but I should have gone with less gear, something like 3.07 or even in the 2s.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Just so it's out there, I absolutely will *NOT *be beating on this car, as much as I may want to. However that's beside the point. I will build it like it deserves to be built. I am a rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it kinda guy. Besides, IF the zombie uprising actually *DOES *occur... I want to have some seriously fast wheels and car durable enough to get me the hell outta Dodge. Hence the need for an Endura bumper! 










Just say'n.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I dunno....the original GTO 389 had well over 400 foot popunds of torque....about 434, if my memory serves. No way would Pontiac build a car with an under rated, under spec part when new. They built thousands of them. The original M20 tranny is the ONLY original drivetrain part in my own '65, and it too has been hammered on(by me) for almost 30 years, and I'm sure by the previous owners who blew the original engine and rear end drag racing the car. That said, If I were to build a stroker car, I think I'd go with a mild gear like a 3.23 and a beefed up M-22 or TH400. I like the idea of an overdrive trans, but I don't like the way the 5 speeds and 6 speeds shift (they do not feel like the Hurst at all to me, and that's a big part of a vintage GTO, IMO), and I don't like the idea of cutting the floors up. A TH400 with a mild gear and a good converter would be great, as a stroker can easily pull a lazy gear (my stock '67 400 pulls a 2.56 gear no problems.....and will roast the tires). A gear vendors on the back of a TH400 works well, but they're expensive and clunky when they engage/disengage. As good as they are, I think a stock M20 or M21 trans would be a potential issue behind a big inch, high torque engine. An M21 is inferior to the M20 unless you are running about a 3.9 gear ratio. It has a taller first gear, making it sluggish off the line.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Mine had the 3.90 gear when I first got the car, and it wasn't sluggish off the line at all!! But it never left town cause it was buzzed up so tight on the highway. 


*edit* NM, I see what you were saying there...


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Well just tripped over a 1968 WT block with #16 heads in my own back yard so may just grab it instead of making the drive to get the 79 motor. If I get it, it looks to be a solid GTO motor - from the code search , I may not want to break it up from the matching heads. With dished pistons can I make this into a pump gas engine? It looks to have 10.75:1 CR stock... OUCH.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Go with the 68 block. Superior metal and strength to the 79 block. Yeah, you'll need dished pistons, but no big deal. The word in Pontiac circles is to avoid the '75-up blocks due to thin castings and less nickel content. '68 is about the peak of high quality in machine work and materials.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

geeteeohguy said:


> Go with the 68 block. Superior metal and strength to the 79 block. Yeah, you'll need dished pistons, but no big deal. The word in Pontiac circles is to avoid the '75-up blocks due to thin castings and less nickel content. '68 is about the peak of high quality in machine work and materials.


Yea I dig, only reason I was considering the 79 block was that it was the "XX" casting a recast of a late 60's block. But I'd prefer to have a GTO motor anyway. And it's a 360 HP combo with these heads, and should bolt up to my frame and existing motor mounts. So all good on that front. Plus it's still a manual block.


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

With all the E85 in the KC area, why not just go with the small chamber heads? The only difference is the carb, and believe me a high compression 462 is LOTS of fun... Go with flat tops and if you ever want to switch to pump gas again, all it takes is a head swap to some 6X/5C/96/Aluminum and a stock carb. Finding fuel in Ne/Ks/Ia is incredibly easy.

Something to think about.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Thumpin455 said:


> With all the E85 in the KC area, why not just go with the small chamber heads? The only difference is the carb, and believe me a high compression 462 is LOTS of fun... Go with flat tops and if you ever want to switch to pump gas again, all it takes is a head swap to some 6X/5C/96/Aluminum and a stock carb. Finding fuel in Ne/Ks/Ia is incredibly easy.
> 
> Something to think about.


I considered that. There is easy access to E85 close to my house and my place of business. The only thing that worries me about that is my goal of getting it together and road worthy in 3 years so that I can cruise Route 66. I doubt that I will have easy access to E85 through TX, NM and the Southwest, especially along that route. I'd like to take it on West to California, and back to KC through the mountains, Colorado and Kansas down I-70. I am certain it would be hit and miss on where I could and could not find it available. I have not looked to see but again, I doubt it.

Can you provide instruction on how to convert a carb? Or would I need to send you my intended carb and have it modified?

Oh I almost forgot, dude here local wants $400 for the 68 400 block and #16 heads, it's .30 over and will need full rebuild, does have the crank and internals but no intake or exhaust. Worth the money?


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

West Texas is thinm only one in El PAso but there are quite a few in the DFW to Austin area. NM has 2, Las Cruces and a few more in Albequerque, so NM is very thin. You can find pumps with this site: E85 Map

If you can rebuild a carb and tune it, you can convert it to E85. So far there are only two of us doing Qjets, but Holleys are all over the place. The Qjet is complicated enough with a number of different models that it kinda depends on the application and the carb you are working with.

$400 is a lot to me for a core, but it does have good heads. I have seen those heads go for $300-$500 a set, just like any other big valve 72cc head. Its not out of line though, I would probably ask about that for a complete 400.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I've done Route 66 in my '67 back in '93. It was great. Did it last year in my 4Runner, still great, just "not as". Personally, I like to be able to drive anywhere, and that means cross country. Out here , E85 is not available, so it's not an option. Even so, if I lived in the midwest where it was all around, it still would limit where you could drive. You'd be "stuck" inside an E85 area. Not a bad thing if you have a hotrod and you stay local, but if you wanna see the USA in style, not really workable...JMHO


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

Its still not hard to run pump gas, and really the 65 I am doing for my father in law will still be gas. I am going to run a low compression engine in it so he can get fuel anywhere, since it is 31 miles to the pump for him and I want him to be able to go anywhere with it. The best way is some 96, 5C or 6X heads. _Also I have a set of 46 heads with screw in studs, you could add larger valves, maybe port them, and have a very nice set of pump gas heads for a 462.The chambers on 46s are about 89cc, and Butler told me they make very nice heads. They are about 4 hours from you and you can have them if you want them, free of charge. _

Check the map, the west is really the only place you cant find pumps, how far would you want to drive? I can drive from Lake Superior to the gulf of Mexico on it easily, and to the Atlantic as well. Living in the middle of Kansas, well he can go 1000 miles in almost any direction and still get it. There are more than 2000 pumps now, and more coming on all the time. Just sayin.

Its easy to build an engine to run on it, cheap too, nothing exotic. Flat tops and any head you happen to have laying around will work. You can still run pump gas if you use post 71 heads, or dished pistons and have a choice with just a carb swap. 

The really cool thing, if you have a bit too high compression, like say 10:1 or a bit more, you can mix a gallon or two of E85 with premium and get a big octane boost. Since the 10% ethanol is the lowest octane gasoline they have, around 65-68 octane before ethanol is added, mixing it with 91 will really boost the amount of compression you can run. That might be why my EFI cars get the same mileage when I mix half a tank of E85 with them, better gas than is mixed for 10%. I am not pullin your leg or making that up.

The stuff they mix for 10% wont even run in a 7:1 engine, yet one gallon in ten gallons of gas will raise it to 89. The octane increase is not linear, you get a much larger gain from ethanol than the octane ratings would suggest. You would also never have a problem with water in the tank messing up the fuel delivery since it would just let you burn it. The jetting for 10% isnt very different from no ethanol if there is any at all.

Seriously, its cool stuff, and people just dont know about it. Once you try it, and you see what it does, you will love the power, the sound, and the way it drives.

You can always dish the pistons or run different heads too..  Just providing options because it isnt my engine.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

It's always a great thing to have choices! As I think I said before, I have a friend that used to run his '67 GTO on Ethanol and he loved the cool running and the power. Just another option open to us!


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

And as if there weren't already enough choices, I read an article yesterday about water/methanol injection systems that are available now. At present they seem to be set up only for boosted applications - turbochargers and superchargers - but surely there's a way to use one on an N/A engine too. They work by cooling the intake charge down and slowing the combustion process to prevent detonation - same as octane.

Bear


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

Ford put water injection on their 460's in the late 70's. I have seen it on trucks and vans before. I had an STS turbo on a 99 Ram Air 6speed T/A. It had a methanol Injection pump with the kit. 20# of boost, 6000rms and that car would move.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

Water Injection


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

Lets say you are running 13:1 and a 16 gallon tank. How much e85 would need to be added to 93 octane to get it safe to run. I have seen forums on GN running a mix of e85 to run more boost on there engines. I ask because I have a BBC with 13:1. There are plenty of e85 pumps around and 93oct. pumps.


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

The better thing to do would be modify a carb to run E85 and just forget gas at 13:1. Consider the cost of race gas vs what E85 is going for and it doesnt take much more motivation to switch. How much you would need depends on how much octane the engine needs to stay detonation free. Cam timing, environmental conditions, chamber shape, etc play a part in how much octane an engine needs.

Its probably going to be enough ethanol that you will have to modify the carb more extensively than just jetting since the 93 wont be able to handle the compression at all. With EFI it would be easier to do, since you can often run 50% ethanol with the stock tune. A carb is a bit pickier since it is set for a relatively specific curve and changing the properties of the fuel will affect lots of things. If you can get the mix the same every time, then you could do that. Otherwise how do you know exactly how much gas and how much alky is in the tank already? That is why the FFV s they build now have a sensor that provides that info, and the computer can adjust to almost anything from zero alky to a full load of it.

10%-15% ethanol isnt enough of a difference to really mess up the carb calibration, so you can mix that easy, just add a gallon or two of E85 with each tank. Depending on where you live and what month it is, it could be anywhere from 70% to 83% ethanol. That difference matters when you are splash mixing it more than it does when you have a carb set up specifically for it. A gallon of E85 will raise 93 octane quite a bit just not enough to run 13:1 at 10%, it would probably be more like 40% to 60% and at that point why bother with the more expensive premium.

Same deal with a street engine, if you want to go back to race gas you can always switch the carb back to the one you ran before. If you have an extra carb laying around, pick up a rebuild kit for it and send it to me, I will convert it, test it, and get it set up then send it back to you, free of charge. Then you have a choice, pump/race gas, or E85, you will just have to drain the tank down quite a ways to run the E85 carb. Im not trying to build a business, I just want people to know how easy it is to run E85, and how well it runs. Also I like building carbs and helping people.


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

Pontiacpurebrred if you want those 46 heads to run pump gas on a 455, I can give you directions to the farm and you can go pick them up. Or, if you can wait until September, I am trying to get home to do some work on cars out there and haul the T37 back here, and I could meet you somewhere relatively easily. 

Getting larger valves put in is no big deal, you can get stainless valves for about $170 and its a good idea to upgrade from the 40 year old stockers. Porting is up to you, since the ports are sized to make very good velocity and torque at lower RPM ranges, and they flow pretty much like any Dport head. 350 heads are a really easy way to raise compression on a 455 sized engine just enough not to need race gas or E85.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I ran an Edlebrock water injection on my stock '67 GTO engine back in 1988. It still pinged badly. The combination of too much compression, too little octane, and high combustion chamber temps made it non-workable. I used straight water.


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

The methanol gives an added octane increase and allows you to burn the water, where as straight water will only marginally cool the intake charge. You can do the same thing with ethanol and water, but since E85 has gasoline in it you cant mix it with water the same way. Gas and water dont mix, so it will separate out the gas.

Unless you run it all the time, you will still have knock issues when it isnt engaged. Its hard to get around the low octane of gas.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Thumpin455 said:


> Pontiacpurebrred if you want those 46 heads to run pump gas on a 455, I can give you directions to the farm and you can go pick them up. Or, if you can wait until September, I am trying to get home to do some work on cars out there and haul the T37 back here, and I could meet you somewhere relatively easily.
> 
> Getting larger valves put in is no big deal, you can get stainless valves for about $170 and its a good idea to upgrade from the 40 year old stockers. Porting is up to you, since the ports are sized to make very good velocity and torque at lower RPM ranges, and they flow pretty much like any Dport head. 350 heads are a really easy way to raise compression on a 455 sized engine just enough not to need race gas or E85.


Hey Thumpin, you sir are a gentleman and a scholar. How can I turn down an offer like that? I can wait till whenever, I won't be building the motor till next fall I assume. That is some offer right there. I really appreciate it. And very timely, now I will just need to find a nice 400 block for a core so if anyone knows of a good starter block (68-70 400 preferably original bore) in the KC area, let me know. 

I decided to hold off on both the 68 400 with the #16 heads and the T-56. Priorities .... I got a reply to my "69 GTO parts needed" ad on CL dude here local has a ton of stuff I needed. So I am picking that up now. (Details to follow in the Marilyn thread.)


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Hey Thumpin,

I don't know if you saw or not, I found a 455 for my engine, one with what I assume will be 98 heads. So those 46 heads look all that much more desirable. Still offering them?


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Lower comp+bigger cu/in = power these days.


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

Sure, I dont have a use for them. I'll see if my bud who lives on 81 can pick them up and get them to you somehow. You said you are in Topeka right?


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Thumpin455 said:


> Sure, I dont have a use for them. I'll see if my bud who lives on 81 can pick them up and get them to you somehow. You said you are in Topeka right?



Nah I am in the Kansas City area. In the I-435 loop. I am happy to bridge the gap. I don't expect you to give me a set of heads (had to watch how I typed that sentence) AND deliver them too.
:rofl:


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