# Timing question



## 69-JUDGE (Jun 27, 2009)

I have a 1969 GTO that was modified by a previous owner with a HEI distributor. I have since installed a dual quad intake manifold which required the replacement of the HEI unit with a smaller size electronic distributor.
The GTO has been sitting for nearly two years and was recently started with this new manifold and distributor set up. (Before being parked the GTO’s fuel tank was filled and Stabil added.) 
The GTO was running roughly at first but seemed to smooth out as it warmed up. I hooked up a digital timing light and it showed the timing was at 8 degrees BTDC with vacuum advance attached to full vacuum port. As I attempted to advance the timing by turning the distributor clock wise the upper radiator hose blew loose, due to a defective clamp, and needless to say I was moving fast to get out of the way and shut the engine down.
After cleaning up the mess and installing new hose clamps (hose and clamps were new originally) I decided to double check my initial mechanical timing. I went to the #1 cylinder on compression stroke and removed the distributor cap. The rotor was pointing between the #1 and # 8 cylinder (just about dead center between the two) with the timing on the crank showing 5 degrees BTDC.
This does not look right to me. Even though the engine was running it was running roughly. Could I be a tooth or two off when I installed the new distributor? Could my new digital timing light be defective? Thanks for all opinions and suggestions.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

halfway between is 22.5 degrees you said it was 5 degrees. can you tell 17 degrees by eyeball?


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

#1 is on the drivers side.. Sounds weird what is going on. Good luck, lol.. Dizzy spins counterclockwise, 18436572.
Disconnnect the vac advance for start up.


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## 69-JUDGE (Jun 27, 2009)

66tempestGT said:


> halfway between is 22.5 degrees you said it was 5 degrees. can you tell 17 degrees by eyeball?


Hello and thanks for your reply. I'm not sure what you are trying to tell me. The rotor on the distributor is postioned as close as I can tell dead center between terminal #1 and #8 with the #1 cylinder on compression stroke showing 5 degrees before top dead center at the crank. Is it your opinion that every thing is correct?


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## 69-JUDGE (Jun 27, 2009)

Thanks for your reply Jetstang


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Judge

You can drop a distributor in just about anyway you want as long as you wire it correctly relative to where you dropped it. 

When I dropped mine, I assigned #1 to where the rotor was pointing after it seated and wired the rest accordingly. Worked out great.

The attached diagram illustrates the firing order and location of the number one cylinder as Jetstang stated, it might be helpful.

Rick


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

69-JUDGE said:


> Hello and thanks for your reply. I'm not sure what you are trying to tell me. The rotor on the distributor is postioned as close as I can tell dead center between terminal #1 and #8 with the #1 cylinder on compression stroke showing 5 degrees before top dead center at the crank. Is it your opinion that every thing is correct?


If you are at 5 before TDC on the crank and the rotor is between 1 and 8, then you have the timing retarded, after TDC. Get the rotor to point right before 1, between 1 and 2, or rotate all the plug wires 1 position to the left and you should have it.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

You can't set the timing without the engine running. You can only get it close. I would only suspect you're a tooth off if you can't twist the distributor far enough to get the timing you need. Also, no, your timing light is fine.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

With your number one piston at tdc, the rotor should be pointing right at number one on the cap. Not close, not between 1 and 8. Your distributor is in off a tooth. You can pull it, and take a long screwdriver to turn the oil pump shaft a little if you have to to get ti to drop back down where it needs to be. If your number one piston is at TDC and your balancer is at 5 degrees, i would suspect a slipped harmonic balancer. It's a multi-piece unit, with rubber between the inner hub and outer ring. It could be slipped. get all that straightened out, and you can start by setting your intitial timing at idle with the vacuum advance disconnected and plugged to around 8 degrees BTDC. This should get you in the ballpark. With the advance connected, you should be at 16-18 degrees or more at idle. Good luck.


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## 69-JUDGE (Jun 27, 2009)

Thanks Koppster, Jetstang, Rukee, Geeteeohguy, for your replys. 

I was thinking back on what I actually did over a year ago when I swapped out distributors on my engine.

I remember turning the engine over to TDC on #1 cylinder before removing the HEI distributor. Before removing the HEI from the engine I marked the position of the rotor at #1 cylinder on the firewall and then removed the HEI distributor. When I attempted to install the new smaller diameter distributor the rotor would not line up with the mark on the firewall and engage the oil pump shaft. At the time I did not have access to anything that would turn the oil pump shaft so I installed the new distributor so it would engage the oil pump shaft which means the rotor was off the #1 cylinder mark I had made on the firewall. I then rotated the distributor until it would trigger the ignition coil and made that terminal the new #1 cylinder.

I think what I really need to do is start over again by going to TDC on the compression stroke for #1 cylinder and reinstall the distributor to match accordingly. 

This is what happens when a lot of time passes between segments of a project. 

Opinions please gentlemen.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Just move the wires 1 position to the left and that should get you where you can get the timing set. Can you not turn the distributor far enough to get the car in time. If you dropped the dizzy in and it didn't engage the oil pump, then it wasn't the same position. It doesn't matter where you put #1 on the cap as long as the plug and firing order is correct.


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## 69-JUDGE (Jun 27, 2009)

jetstang said:


> Just move the wires 1 position to the left and that should get you where you can get the timing set. Can you not turn the distributor far enough to get the car in time. If you dropped the dizzy in and it didn't engage the oil pump, then it wasn't the same position. It doesn't matter where you put #1 on the cap as long as the plug and firing order is correct.


I'm all for making this as simple as possible. I don't know if this makes any difference or not but the distributor has been turned clockwise (advanced) some what to arrive at the condition it is in now. Knowing this do you still recomend your suggestion? If so if I do nothing else but move the wires one over counter clock wise do you think the engine will still start? Oh I do have some room for distributor movement but not a lot.

Also one thing that I am unclear on is, if the distributor turns the rotor counter clockwise and you advance the timing by turning the distributor clockwise, how is the timing retarded in it's present state? Thanks very much.


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

I would start from scratch and do what GTOguy recommends. Do it the right way....


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

69-JUDGE said:


> I'm all for making this as simple as possible. I don't know if this makes any difference or not but the distributor has been turned clockwise (advanced) some what to arrive at the condition it is in now. Knowing this do you still recomend your suggestion? If so if I do nothing else but move the wires one over counter clock wise do you think the engine will still start? Oh I do have some room for distributor movement but not a lot.
> 
> Also one thing that I am unclear on is, if the distributor turns the rotor counter clockwise and you advance the timing by turning the distributor clockwise, how is the timing retarded in it's present state? Thanks very much.


The timing is retarded because you said the rotor is pointing between cylinder 1 and 8, firing order 18436572, to be advanced it would be between 2 and 1. So, moving it 1 terminal to the left would put the rotor between 2 and 1 instead of 1 and 8, thus getting the timing close. Then, start the car and use your timing light.

As for the do it right the first time comments, OMG this is 40 year old stuff, nothing high tech here. I started my 66 today for 1st time with new motor. I brought it to TDC, dropped the distributor in pointing where 1 should be, put my cap on, wired it, and started the car, then adjusted with timing light.. No backfires pops or wiggles, just started and ran really good.:cheers

If it doesn't run right with the timing set correctly, the balancer may have slipped like GTO said. Good luck.


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

Moving wires "1 position to left" is not doing it right the first time, IMO. Sounds like on your '66 you did do it right...... Did I mention, '66 was my favorite year during the '65 -'67 era?:cheers


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Thanks for your support, guys. As an experienced tune-up mechanic for a long time, I really have to say that by starting over and putting the distributor where GM intended will give the best results. Just turn the pump shaft if it won't go in to the exact postition. Then you can set your timing normally, and the dizzy won't be clocked wrong and look wrong with the vacuum advance pointed at some strange angle. The entire job should take less than an hour. Some of us can do it in minutes. It's no big deal.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

He said that he installed a new distributor, so he may of screwed up that install, and it's obvious that he didn't put the #1 wire on at TDC. Anyway, at this point I would move everything one and see if that fixes it. THEN, if ya want reclock the dizzy. I agree to disagree, lol...
I tell you what, an engine is way easier to work on when there is no front clip on the car. I cranked my engine today with no PS pump, alt or radiator in the car. Battery is on a stool next to the car, hot wire to the HEI hot, and no bolts in the valve cover.. Wanted to see if the motor ran first, then spent the rest of the day bolting on accesories and putting the radiator in.


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## 69-JUDGE (Jun 27, 2009)

Thanks guys for the responses. I rechecked my wiring and my firing order is correct. It would appear that I am indeed 1 off (retarded). I believe that I will use Jetstang's suggestion and see what happens. If I am not happy with the outcome I can always start from scratch. Thanks again.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

im not sure why this is so complicated. if its in between then if you change the wires it will still be in between. why not twist the distributor a touch. i didnt read that it had no more adjustment.


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## 69-JUDGE (Jun 27, 2009)

Jetstang, I sent you a PM. Keith


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## 69-JUDGE (Jun 27, 2009)

66tempestGT said:


> im not sure why this is so complicated. if its in between then if you change the wires it will still be in between. why not twist the distributor a touch. i didnt read that it had no more adjustment.


The way it was set the timing was way retarded. Moving the wires one over put the distributor on the advance side of #1. It will more than likely still need some fine adjustment. I was mainly trying to figure out what had happened since so much time can go by between my working on the GTO sessions. My memory is not as sharp as it used to be either.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

66tempestGT said:


> i didnt read that it had no more adjustment.


I assumed it didn't or we wouldn't be having this conversation.. Damn Vacuum cans.
Good luck Judge, should be pretty easy fix.


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## 69-JUDGE (Jun 27, 2009)

jetstang said:


> I assumed it didn't or we wouldn't be having this conversation.. Damn Vacuum cans.
> Good luck Judge, should be pretty easy fix.


Thanks, Keith


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## 69-JUDGE (Jun 27, 2009)

Well, she fired up and I adjusted the initial timing to 10 degrees BTDC (for the moment), with the vacuum advance disconnected, and the engine sounds really good.

Two strange things are happening though, the fuel pump pressure is dropping after the engine warms up (I’ll cover this in a separate post titled “FUEL PRESSURE DROPPING”) and the second strange thing that is happening is that when I connect the vacuum advance to full manifold vacuum, the engine rpm drops, the engine runs very roughly and pops back into the exhaust system.

I was able to take a quick reading on the timing and it is indeed advancing. It looked like it was around 6 to 8 degrees. (The vacuum canister is set at 10 degrees at the crank.)
It looks like that If I’m going to utilize vacuum advance, I may have to try connecting to the ported vacuum port, or not run any vacuum advance at all. ( If I remember correctly another member had a similar problem.) 

I don't know if it makes any difference or not, but I was attempting to connect the vacuum advance while the engine was running. 

As usual all comments and suggestions are appreciated, If you have the time please read and comment on my fuel pressure dropping post.


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