# A little heart broken...



## OrbitOrange (Jul 5, 2010)

I restored my 70 GTO, and pulled the matching numbers engine during the process. I didnt have money to have it built so I through a fresh poncho 350 in and been using it ever since. ( little over 2 years now.) Well Monday I finally broke down and took the 400 to the machine shop. I hadnt taken it in 2 years because I had to beat the pistons out of the block so I didn't have high hopes for it. Got the call this morning on my drive to work that it is going to need to be bored out to .060 and needs 3 sleeves because the rust in the cylinder pitted it that bad.  $450 for the sleeves and then $80 to bore all 8 cylinders. 

Well I thought on it some this afternoon and after calling Butler Performance for some opinon and advice. They advice against more than 1 sleeve per bank. And also .060 max bore. And I gotta say I agree. Who wants to put in 3 sleeves and then have to turn around and bore them to max bore?:confused 

Looks like I am in the market to find another block, or do some work on the 350 I have now.. I would like to fit my #13 heads to the 350, but I gotta have the heads checked out also and see howbad the rust is in the valve seats on them now.

Your thoughts guys?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Butler has a great reputation, and are highly thought of. That said, how about getting a second opinion, just to be sure? Jim at Central Virginia Machine would be my next call. I have heard of many sleeves going into an engine, but I am no machinist. Multiple sleeves might be a no-go on a race engine, but could possibly be do-able on a street build. If it were me, I would source another 400 block, age approximate, and build that. I would then oil, bag, and store the original #'s block and hold on to it. You never know. I would not spend the $$$ on the 350 engine. I would either run it as is, like you have been doing, or yank it for a replacement with a 400.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

:agree And keep in mind that Butler's recommendation probably didn't take into account the fact that it's the numbers-matching engine. "Normally" they'd be right - it's probably not worth the expense - but this isn't a "normal" case. Keeping that block just might be worth it.

Bear


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

have a 70'400 virgin block at the machine shop cleaned checked and ready to bore. I may be selling, have to get up and grab it as i lost the block codes and need to get it back to the shop.


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## OrbitOrange (Jul 5, 2010)

I plan on keeping the block. Just think I might need to find another one to put into service now. I figured if the heads are shot also. Just for nostalgia, conversation piece in the garage. I Might bolt the heads on the block with the factory intake and paint it up like new and let her set in an engine stand in the garage.


Hard to believe someone let it end up like this. It has never been bored, and even had an erson cam in it when I pulled it apart. Sad, really. It was like someone robbed it for parts for some reason because it was missing lifters and pushrods. Or either someone started building it and never finished it. Probably sat in a field and got rained on for years and seized up.


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## OrbitOrange (Jul 5, 2010)

Instg8ter said:


> have a 70'400 virgin block at the machine shop cleaned checked and ready to bore. I may be selling, have to get up and grab it as i lost the block codes and need to get it back to the shop.


That would be nice but probably out of my budget. A friend called today said he was working at a guys house, and this guy said he used to race pontiacs back in the day and that he had a complete 400 with heads on it but it was wore out and would need a bore. Said he would take $100 for it. I think I need to go take a look at this asap.


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## FlambeauHO (Nov 24, 2011)

Agreed, sounds like it may be a bargain


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## FNG69 (Nov 15, 2009)

Know of a engine that had all 8 cylinders sleeved!! And then build to stock. Jumped in the GTO after couple years and drove all across the USA. Just saying its been done!!


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## OrbitOrange (Jul 5, 2010)

FNG69 said:


> Know of a engine that had all 8 cylinders sleeved!! And then build to stock. Jumped in the GTO after couple years and drove all across the USA. Just saying its been done!!


Thought about that also. But at $100 per hole labor and $30 per sleeve. $1040 just to get the block usable I can't justify. Gonna get over and look at this $100 engine and see whats going on there. 

I just hate that now I gotta go pay $100 to the machine shop for magnaflux and vatting the original block thats going to be a paper weight.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

It depends on what the car is, how rare, etc. I was speaking with Jim Wangers two years ago, and He informed me that an original (born with) engine adds about 10,000 dollars to the value of the car. In checking prices on restored and survivor cars, I have found that this is pretty accurate. $1040 is peanuts when you consider the whole equation, value wise.


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## OrbitOrange (Jul 5, 2010)

Its not peanuts to me! Its a little chunk! The car is nothing rare. Its just a 400/400 GTO. I didn't even paint it factory color because I intended on building the car I wanted. But I did want to atleast attempt to keep the original motor since that in itself seems to be a rarity. 
When people say what motor is in it and I say "ah its just a little ol pontiac 350, but I have the numbers matching 400 Im going to put back in it". Saying the GTO has a 350 is a bit embarrassing (no offense to 350 owners). So Ive always had to throw that I have the original numbers 400, to make myself feel better I guess (probably seems lame but thats just me). When your driving a GTO and its got a 350 with only 7.5:1 compression 165hp, its just not living up to the expectations of a "muscle car" for me.

But another grand for an engine build is not peanuts for me, not right now anyhow. I got 2 teenage daughters! Maybe in a few years I can consider it.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Okay....that clears a few things up. Oil and bag the original engine and build up a 400 for it, as time and $$$ allow. That's what I would do, anyhow.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Orbit, I think you can safely go .090 over....this would be prefered, rather than sleeving. If you are gonna bore, you will need new pistons, Ross, will make .070, .090, etc....they may cost a bit, but you will have your original motor. Just sayin' :cheers Eric


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## OrbitOrange (Jul 5, 2010)

Eric Animal said:


> Orbit, I think you can safely go .090 over....this would be prefered, rather than sleeving. If you are gonna bore, you will need new pistons, Ross, will make .070, .090, etc....they may cost a bit, but you will have your original motor. Just sayin' :cheers Eric


Sorry, if I sound dumb LOL! Im not really familiar with the Pontiac as far as technical engine stuff. Like most Ive always had fords and chevys. I am aware of the differences of all three though. .060 is usually max on most of those, so I assumed it is on the Poncho also. I was concerned with the overheating issues that prone pontiacs anyhow, and didnt want to bore it out and increase that potential.

Your saying .060 is safe on these? So even max .090 might be ok?


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Yes, correct!


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I also thought (and think) .060" over is about it on these blocks. Anybody running a .090" overbore with ok results??


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

geeteeohguy said:


> I also thought (and think) .060" over is about it on these blocks. Anybody running a .090" overbore with ok results??


I suspect that it would be much like other manufacturers, i.e.; .060" is the nominal "max". However, if the block is sonically tested to ensure wall thickness, larger bores are indeed possible.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Jeff, I know it sounds scarey, but I know of several engines that have gone 090 over....the SONIC check is a must first !!!arty:Eric


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Yes, Eric, I have seen some flatheads go .120" over and more, even. But a Pontiac 400, I haven't seen. But I haven't seen everything, either.If it's an engine that had no core-shift and sonic tested fine, well, the proof is in the pudding. I would be tempted, at .090", to fill the lower portion of the block with block filler, though.....


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Personally, I'd be tempted to get another 400 block. Then STROKE it to a 468, and make a TQ monster!!!arty: Eric


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

.....and then put a blower on it, and of course, paint it BLACK!!


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

When I had a block I bought checked, it was the same thing....rust pits too deep for oversize pistons. I was also told .060 on a Pontiac block was about max. $130 a hole to bore and sleeve is ludicrous. I was quoted $60 a hole for the same operation. If your quote included pistons, it's still high. Machine shop rates may be higher in your area, but I would check around for more prices. FYI, my machinist builds race engines and isn't afraid of sleeves at all. He was going to do all 8 so the bore would be back to standard.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

geeteeohguy said:


> .....and then put a blower on it, and of course, paint it BLACK!!


Of course!arty:


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

On the re-think....Orbit, you will probably be better off if you "put the original block away". Get a 400 block that is in good shape. Build what you want/need...have peace of mind, and sleep well at night!:cheers Eric


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## 67GTO4SPD (Oct 4, 2012)

If it were mine, I'd fix the original engine, no question about it. Running .060" over on a '70 400 is absolutely safe, so I would just get the 3 sleeves in installed. $450 for 3 sleeves is way too high and you can beat that price if you shop around. A .060" over 400 (412 actual cu in) breathes better anyway, and the '70 block is plenty thick enough to run cool and cause no problems, even with the 3 sleeves. JBP is a performance engine shop, and I'm sure them telling you 3 sleeves is not ideal is a CYA kind thing. 
A friend of mine has a '73 SD T/A and he had to have 4 sleeves installed in it, and its running fine 12 years later. 

You say the car is nothing rare, which is technically true, but it still makes a huge difference in resale value. They're only original once, and if you have the actual numbers matching engine, that's a huge plus now, and will be even moreso as the years go by. There's no way I'd spend the money to sleeve all 8 cylinders, because it is totally unnecessary, but I'd put 3 sleeves in it to make it right. 

I know at one time you were considering selling the car, and if you do decide to sell it later, you will cost yourself a lot of money by not putting the original engine. I'd just save up for a little while longer and fix it. 

Just my opinion...


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