# Engine swap pulley alignment



## Nino67gto (Jun 5, 2014)

I suspect this topic has been around before, but I could not find a thread on it. I am installing a 1973 400 in my 67 GTO. The old motor was set up for an 8 hole water pump. The new motor has the later 11 hole timing cover and 4-1/2" water pump. The brackets for the alternator and power steering are from the old motor, so now I fear that the pulleys wont line up. I DO NOT want to do a billet pulley system such as what March offers. Does anyone know what pulleys I need, or if anybody offers a stock looking pulley kit for this swap? I would think this is a fairly common engine swap (later 400 into a pre-1968 Pontiac). Thanks in advance.


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

Would a 4" 11 bolt water pump fix your pulley issues? If it will you can order an *early year* 69 water pump. I had the same problem with my 67 that has a 69 late year 400. Changed to a 4" WP and all pulleys lined up.


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## Doug68gto (Mar 8, 2016)

Just went through what you did on my 68 gto. You have to
Use all the same pulleys and bracket from same year or you will have problems. If you send me your email I will transfer to a real good Pontiac guy on west coast and he will set you up with what you need. Do not try to Pcs together different years or you will have a mess and fan belts falling off. My email is [email protected]. He will need to know what year heads/ power steering/ AC but mine works great now with his help and I'm sure you will be hsppy . Doug


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## Doug68gto (Mar 8, 2016)

Also what water pump you are running 11 or 8 bolt and 4! Or 4/12?shaft but he will walk you though that. Doug


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## Doug68gto (Mar 8, 2016)

Also when I transfer to him tell him you talked to Doug I did just the opposit you did ( 72 to 69 motor ) so I might have lots of what you need cheap, just sitting in my garages . Doug


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

The pulley bracket waterpump mismatch problem is very common. Began encountering it in the early '80's with locals and their cars which had had later engines swapped in. In the mid 80's, sat out in my first home's garage with stacks of pulleys and brackets, several Pontiac master parts books, and two Pontiac engines on stands. Ended up figuring out what was going on as Pontiac changed staggers of pulleys nearly every other year along with different mounting style PS pumps and a wide range of brackets. 

Since those early beginning, came up with a conversion kit for those desiring to run the 11 bolt timing cover and keep a relatively stock look, at casual glance, under the hood, while using the 11 bolt timing cover & '68+ damper. Have shipped out multiple dozens of these "conversion kits" for '65-68 owners, as well as shipping out a TON of hard to find brackets, pulleys, top condition used timing covers, restored PS pumps. Mentioning this conversion dozens of times on PY forum over the last 15 years, it seems Ames has now in the last two years, picked up on it and is offering a "kit" with repro pieces. I guess that's a compliment. 

Nino, with the '73's timing cover and its late '69-81 TALL waterpump, and which ever damper (harmonic balancer) of the two looks the best, here's what what you can reuse:

-your '68 PS pump, its alum pivot bracket, hockey stick steel bracket & long bolt, and the '68's PS pulley...the "900" or "901" (all pulleys are referred to by last three digits stamped on the pulley)
-your '68 engine's crank pulley(s)
if non A/C two groove, it will be an "846". If the '68 is factory AC car, it will be an "842" and have the thin one groove "843" supplemental AC pulley behind it.

Next, since you have the above, you will need is the correct waterpump pulley. 
That pulley would be a "927" if non AC. If car has factory AC, or running the larger diam AC usage '68-70 crank pulley, the "842", you will need a "128" or "130" waterpump pulley. 

Last for alt brackets... one of the big draws to doing the conversion and getting rid of the '71+ style brackets and pump is to keep a relatively stock "60's" look under the hood of a '65-68 Pontiac while utilizing the 11 bolt timing cover. The '65-very early 1970 Pontiac V8's, with PS, use a alt strap, or pair of strap type brackets which the alt adjusts off of. You be able to reuse the '68's rear alt strap that mounts off intake water inlet stud. The front alt strap is positioned just slightly differently, due to the different timing covers designs, and you will need a front strap off a '69 Pontiac. If cant find one used, the '69 front strap is reproduced. Though have an entire pallet rack section devoted to mid '60's- mid 70's Pontiac V8 pulleys, PS/alt brackets, am nearly always out of this small '69 front alt bracket, but do try a keep everything else in stock. Hope this helps, need anything, feel free and shout out.


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## Nino67gto (Jun 5, 2014)

I'm not sure if the 4" pump is the answer, 05GTO. I've not installed this yet. I just know my old motor was a 1966, and had the 2 piece balancer/dampener. Everything I read tells me I'm gonna have problems with alignment, and I'm trying to get out in front of it. If the 4" pump help, I'll still need at least a crank pulley with 4 holes instead of 6.Then there's the issue of pulley diameters.


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## Nino67gto (Jun 5, 2014)

Doug68gto said:


> Also what water pump you are running 11 or 8 bolt and 4! Or 4/12?shaft but he will walk you though that. Doug


I am planning to use the 4-1/2" 11 bolt WP.


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## Nino67gto (Jun 5, 2014)

Pinion head said:


> The pulley bracket waterpump mismatch problem is very common. Began encountering it in the early '80's with locals and their cars which had had later engines swapped in. In the mid 80's, sat out in my first home's garage with stacks of pulleys and brackets, several Pontiac master parts books, and two Pontiac engines on stands. Ended up figuring out what was going on as Pontiac changed staggers of pulleys nearly every other year along with different mounting style PS pumps and a wide range of brackets.
> 
> Since those early beginning, came up with a conversion kit for those desiring to run the 11 bolt timing cover and keep a relatively stock look, at casual glance, under the hood, while using the 11 bolt timing cover & '68+ damper. Have shipped out multiple dozens of these "conversion kits" for '65-68 owners, as well as shipping out a TON of hard to find brackets, pulleys, top condition used timing covers, restored PS pumps. Mentioning this conversion dozens of times on PY forum over the last 15 years, it seems Ames has now in the last two years, picked up on it and is offering a "kit" with repro pieces. I guess that's a compliment.
> 
> ...


Thanks Pinion Head, this is great information. I have the 2-piece alt bracket strap, cast aluminum PS bracket, and no AC. For clarity, my car is a 67 not a 68, and my new motor is a 1973 400 with 1968 or 69 (can't recall) #16 heads. I have a new 4 bolt dampener installed. The motor I pulled out was a 66 with 2 piece dampener (6 hole), and 8 hole WP, and I won't be reusing the dampener or timing cover. You can see why this seems like such a mess. I'd like to keep the appearance of a 67 400 motor, including the PS bracket and pump, as well as the alt straps. So, does this change anything from your post or can I run with that recipe? Thanks in advance.


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

The "tall" 11 bolt waterpump is the most common, least expensive from the aftermarket, and is even avail in a an electric race version from Mezierre. In a rebuilt pump, always look for a cast impeller.

The "short" "351" casting waterpump was used on '69 Pontiac V8's and requires its own stagger of wp pulley, the "060", "061", etc. Some publications refer to an early and a late '69 waterpump. The late '69 water pum was in essence, the first "tall" 11 bolt waterpump and began factory installed use on the first 1970 model Pontiac A,B, and G series. the "short" "351" casting 11 bolt waterpump was continued in use, until the last '69 Firebirds rolled off the assembly line in Nov of '69.


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Nino67gto said:


> Thanks Pinion Head, this is great information. I have the 2-piece alt bracket strap, cast aluminum PS bracket, and no AC. For clarity, my car is a 67 not a 68, and my new motor is a 1973 400 with 1968 or 69 (can't recall) #16 heads. I have a new 4 bolt dampener installed. The motor I pulled out was a 66 with 2 piece dampener (6 hole), and 8 hole WP, and I won't be reusing the dampener or timing cover. You can see why this seems like such a mess. I'd like to keep the appearance of a 67 400 motor, including the PS bracket and pump, as well as the alt straps. So, does this change anything from your post or can I run with that recipe? Thanks in advance.


Aaah, have '68's on the brain this AM, been on the phone and '68 parts going out, sorry for confusion.

With the '73's 11 bolt timing cover, and the "tall" 11 bolt timing cover, and the '68+ damper, you will need more parts. 

Still, the "127" pulley, now the "846" crank pulley, the '69 front alt strap (the '67-68 front strap can work but will be offset about a 1/4" compared to the slot in the rear alt strap)

Will also need need a '67-70 pump, it's matching small diam non a/c PS pulley, the '67 alum pivot block (it has a quarter sized hole on it) The hockey stick bracket, the long bolt, a cupped washer that goes on the back of he '67 pump, a small spacer, a few mtg bolts.

The '65-66 PS pump alum mounting block is different, the '65-66 pump mounts differently and has different stagger when trying to line up with '68-70 crank pulley, thus the swap to the '67-70 style.

not sure what is up with this site, keeps bumping me off, have to relog in. What should have taken 1 minute to add a few things took repeated efforts


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## Nino67gto (Jun 5, 2014)

Pinion head said:


> Aaah, have '68's on the brain this AM, been on the phone and '68 parts going out, sorry for confusion.
> 
> With the '73's 11 bolt timing cover, and the "tall" 11 bolt timing cover, and the '68+ damper, you will need more parts.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the help. I will double check numbers and see what I need. The way this car was cobbled together, I might have some 67 stuff on it, I'll need to verify what I need. I'll be in touch. Thanks.


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## Doug68gto (Mar 8, 2016)

Tony I think Scott might have reached out to you? All I can tell you is he set me up perfect . He is fair and honest..Bought some from him ,some eBay and other off other web site after getting all the numbers from him. After you get all the number together let me know what you need. I have about 15 pulleys sitting in garage and would love to help out another Pontiac owner. Just so you know mine is perfect now after a lot of hair pulling ( at least what's left) I went from 72 heads to 69 heads p/s a/c . It's the heads that drive what you need. They are drilled different on front where bracket bolt in. best luck Doug


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## Doug68gto (Mar 8, 2016)

And the water pump 4 1/2 vs 4 inch sorry but that's a big player also . Love my Pontiac but they did not make this easy. Doug


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## the cursed gto (Jun 15, 2021)

Doug68gto said:


> Just went through what you did on my 68 gto. You have to
> Use all the same pulleys and bracket from same year or you will have problems. If you send me your email I will transfer to a real good Pontiac guy on west coast and he will set you up with what you need. Do not try to Pcs together different years or you will have a mess and fan belts falling off. My email is [email protected]. He will need to know what year heads/ power steering/ AC but mine works great now with his help and I'm sure you will be hsppy . Doug


hi im putting a 1973 400 with 1970 ram air iii head in 1969 gto will any of my brackets work for alternator and power steering or should i start looking for 70s brackets? nothing is lining up please help


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

CVF Racing makes a nice serpentine kit for Pontiac’s, that is what I went to. Much easier to change out stuff. Much better priced than March, all well made stuff a Minnesota company, if you decide to go a different route


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

the cursed gto said:


> hi im putting a 1973 400 with 1970 ram air iii head in 1969 gto will any of my brackets work for alternator and power steering or should i start looking for 70s brackets? nothing is lining up please help


Impossible to say for sure, but know this: pulley alignment on Pontiacs once you start mixing up parts and years, is the stuff that nightmares are made of and 1969 is one of the hardest years to deal with. I have a '69 myself. Your best chance, if you still have everything, is to use all the parts, brackets, and accessories from your 69 if you also have the water pump and it's good. 

In 69, early in the model year, GTO's and other A-body cars used a water pump that had a snout that was 1/2 shorter than "every other Pontiac". All the other brackets, pulleys, and accessories were built around that shorter pump. Part way through the model year, Pontiac "changed" and standardized on the same pump for all cars. As a result, the Pontiac factory parts book lists something like 4 >different< part numbers for a 69 GTO water pump pulley: short snout, long snout, original short snout car that now has a long snout pump, etc.

Seriously - it gets ugly fast. 

I know I've written other posts on here that go into the gory details of what I went through getting everything right on my car.

Good luck - let me know if I can help.

Bear


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## then68gto (Sep 26, 2014)

Sorry, but tagging on to this post. I am restoring a 68 GTO. This was an AC car which I have removed. When I had the engine rebuilt the crank pulley was misplaced. Since the AC is gone I am assuming I only need 2v pulleys for the crank and water pump/fan. I have the original water pump, power steering and alternator pulleys and purchased a new 2v crank pulley. Nothing is lining up...
Help


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Do you also still have the original water pump, alternator, and all associated bracketry as well as the pulleys you mentioned?

I'm not sure about '68, but I know that in '69 there were at least 3 different water pump pulleys alone listed in the factory parts manual and they all had different offsets. 

If your car originally had 3 pulleys on the crank, the rear-most being for the A/C compressor, it's possible that you may have to use all 3 of them to get the spacing right event if you don't actually use the compressor drive.

Accessory drive pulley alignment on Pontiac engines is at least as much fun as lining up Endura bumpers 

Bear


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## then68gto (Sep 26, 2014)

Thanks Bear, The water pump is new, alternator original and I purchased a new alternator bracket. I spoke to the guy who rebuilt the engine and he is telling me that if I go with a 2V pulley on the crank I will need a spacer. Unfortunately I don't have the original 3V pulley so next step is to get a spacer to see if that lines up. I can't wait until I get to reinstalling the Endura bumper.


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