# Oil on spark plugs and weak vacuum, what are the possibilities?



## joesweeting (May 8, 2011)

Engine info:
455 bored .30 over
"96" heads professional built by Butler Performance
COMP Cams Magnum Double Roller Timing Set
COMP Cams Xtreme Energy Cam and Lifter Kit (PN223)
Pioneer Street Performance Harmonic Balancer
Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake Manifold
Edelbrock Performer Carburetor
PerTronix Flame-Thrower III Ignition Coil
PerTronix Ignitor III® Solid-State Ignition System
Have trying to light the engine off for about two weeks, I have spark, compression and fuel. 

Some of the items I did to trouble shoot the engine are: 
- Adjusted valve lash 4-6 times
- Switched from PerTronix Ignitor III® Solid-State Ignition System back to points
- changed plug wires and plugs 
- verified proper firing order
- Rotated distributor 180 to see if cam installed backwards
- purged old fuel and sprayed starter fluid in car bans new fuel 

Fuel will burn when taken straight from carb, but by the time it reaches the spark plug it will not burn, I belive it is mixed with oil . Rear plugs are wet but front plugs are dry. 

Any info would be helpful, 

Thanks,


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## fasterfiero (Sep 6, 2011)

If you have stock style pontiac rocker arms, there is no lash adjustment. Did you verify you have spark ? ie pull a plug and watch it while cranking. pontiac distributors turn counter-clockwise. suck squeeze bang breathe. if you have spark, pour some happy juice down the carb and fire it up. if not........ rotate distributor 180 degrees if still nothing .... compression check ....... 
you can also check for a fully charged battery and good grounds , it is usually something simple .......


also


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## FlambeauHO (Nov 24, 2011)

Make sure if you have a "correction" distributor cap that it's intended for Pontiac's counterclockwise distributor. That held me up a bit.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

*If you're absolutely certain you've got spark and fuel*, then my money's on the problem being the distributor isn't indexed correctly/cap wired correctly.

Turn the motor over until timing mark points to TDC - remove all the spark plug wires and remove distributor cap - see which terminal the rotor is pointing to. Reinstall cap and rewire the cap so that the terminal the rotor is pointing to is connected to plug wire going to #1 cylinder (front of engine, drivers side). Work your way around the cap, counterclockwise, connecting the rest of the wires in firing order sequence 1-8436572
(remember drivers side is 1357, front to back - passenger side is 2468, front to back). If it won't start and run, then it's 180 degrees out. Move the #1 plug wire from where you connected it above to the terminal that's directly on the opposite side of the cap (for example, if you started with the wire on the temrinal at 12 o'clock, move it to the terminal at 6 o'clock) - reconnect the other wires, starting counter clockwise from the (new) #1 position, again in firing order sequence 1-8436572. 

If you did everything correctly, and nothing else is wrong --- one of those orientations is going to do the trick.

If you know how to make sure that the timing marks on the balancer line up at TDC -AND- #1 cylinder is TDC on the compression stroke and not on the exhaust stroke, then it'll be right the first time. Remember the timing marks will align at TDC two times, once when #1 is TDC compression, again when #1 is TDC exhaust. One easy way to tell which is which iis to remove the drivers side valve cover and look at the rockers/valves with the timing marks at TDC: both valves for #1 will be closed (rocker tips "up") if #1 is at TDC compression , exhaust valve will be near fully open (rocker tip pushed "down") if #1 is at TDC exhaust.

There are several ways to do this - you can fool with removing the distributor and re-pointing the rotor, etc. Do that if you care about having everything installed in the 'factory' orientation, or if you find that some plug wires appear to be the 'wrong' length when you know they're connected right, of if you find the vacuum advance canister is "in the way" and prevents you from setting the timing correctly once you get it running. But strictly speaking you don't -have- to remove the distributor to get everything in the proper relationships.

Bear


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## joesweeting (May 8, 2011)

All,

Thanks for the info. I also called Butler Performance and was informed my valve lash was probably too tight. 

The rockers I have are roller tips with poly locks with comp cam double springs.
I verified spark by having my friend (ASE master mechanic) hold the plug while I was turning it over
We poured gas and starting fluid down the carb with no success
We pulled the distributor and reinstalled 180, in case we put the cam in incorrectly with no success
I bought a new battery for it and it spins well, but no starting
I bought a new distributor cap and also tried the old cap from a 400 block with no success 
I have verified alignment and the rotary button is at about the 1 o’clock position 
I have not put a gauge on the cylinder; my friend says it is good. He put his finger over #1 cylinder to verify TDC.

Additional info: 
If the car sits for a while (10-15 mins) then try to start it, it sounds like it wants to start when during the first revolution but then just spins. 

I also think the valve lash is incorrect because of the weak vacuum. I’m assuming the valves are not seating fully and air is allowed to blow back into the intake, but I do have compression. So I will readjust the valves per Jim Butler’s instructions. If that does not work then I will reattempt the above listed trouble shooting methods.

Thanks again for all the help. I will post Friday or Saturday to let you know if it worked.


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## mrdon50 (Oct 21, 2011)

If you have compression then the valves are closing. I know it's kinda old school but if you have spark and it's getting gas and you have compression then it should try to fire when your cranking it over. If not then I agree with Bear, you need to start from scratch at setting the timing. Just do a basic start over like it was the first time you did it. from your first post it looks like you maybe did a cam and intake replace so your problem could be several things but make sure you have the basics correct first. also, if your using aftermarket rockers, when you do your initial valve adjust i usually adjust mine by spinning the push rod with your fingers while you tighten the nuts until you just have contact between the the pushrod and lifter. pushrod will be a little harder to spin once contact is made. if in doubt, back the nut off and tighten it again.Then tighten the nut down 1/2 to 3/4 of aturn to center the lifter in the bore and then tighten the polylock. just do them in same order as a SBC with solids and you will be very close. Hope I helped


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## 69Goatee (Aug 14, 2009)

It sounds like you have checked everything but the cam timing. Just having it one tooth off will still feel like it has compression, but not enough to fire.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I didn't think about "lash" --- that's a hydraulic flat tappet cam, right? 

Read this thread:
http://www.gtoforum.com/f50/rocker-arm-adjustment-30618/#post252803

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

To get an engine to run, you need: fuel, compression, iginition, and timing. If you take out one of these ingreditents, it will not run. If sounds to me like you have fuel. That's why it "wants" to start after you let it sit...the plugs are drying off. My bet is on TIMING: either valve or distributor. You are getting spark and fuel, but not when it's needed, at or around TDC. Do a compression check on a couple of cylinders...that'll tell you if a valve is hanging open.... Is the timing gear set indexed correctly? Easy to get those off a bit when installing a new chain.


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## 69Goatee (Aug 14, 2009)

It sounds like you have spark and fuel, so this is the next step I would take. Get a compression tester from one of the parts stores or a good buddy and check the compression on a few cylinders. You need to pull all of the spark plugs out and turn the engine over with the starter. About four or five revs is all you need.
A gasoline engine needs around 80 psi per cylinder to run, and that is the very minimum. 120-175 is great for an average engine, higher for a performance engine. After checking the compression dry, squirt some WD in the spark plug hole and check again, it should rise a little. If it rises by more than 20-30 psi then you have leaking piston rings.
If this checks out, loosen the rocker nuts a half turn on the cylinder you are testing, and check compression again. Repeat and check again, but watch the rocker arms to make sure they are still moving. If there is little to no change in compression, then the cam timing is off and the intake or exhaust valves are bleeding off the cylinder pressure. If the compression rises when the rocker nuts are loosened, then the valve lash is off.
Be sure to disconnect the coil before doing this.


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## joesweeting (May 8, 2011)

Thanks again for all the input.

I adjusted the valves per Jim Butler instructions Saturday and it seemed like it was very close to starting, the closet it has ever been. 

A friend (ASE master mechanic) who has been assisting with the build wants to check compression on the rear cylinders and spark plug blow out. 

If compression and spark plug blow out are sat, I will pull and reset the timing chain


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## mrdon50 (Oct 21, 2011)

Why just check the rear cylinders? I'd check 'em all while i was there cause you need plugs out of adjacent cylinders to check compression anyway, and exactly what is this spark plug blowout of which you speak? only blowout I've heard of is if a plug comes loose and unthreads itself to the point the threads won't hold and it blows out and is very easy to spot or this something new that I've missed?


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## 69Goatee (Aug 14, 2009)

I just reread your original post after the last question. The reason the rear plugs are wet and the front are dry is the carb is dumping tons of fuel into the manifold, and it is running downhill into the rear cylinders. That is why it seems to want to fire after sitting for a while, the fuel evaporates.


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## joesweeting (May 8, 2011)

*compression issues*

We checked the compression in all cylinders and they are low. I think we might of damaged some valves when adjusting the valve lash. I bent 4 push rods and broke one. The compression is: 

#1 100 psi
#2 95 psi
#3 75 psi
#4 80 psi
#5 120 psi
#6 95 psi
#7 110 psi
#8 95 psi

I sprayed oil in cylinder #4 and the psi went to 100. Our course of action is to use a second compression test kit to verify reading. If compression readings are the same, pull the heads and inspect the valves. Also to remove the timing chain cover to verify the timing is correct. Below are the engine specs again. Any input would be appreciated 

455 bored .30 over
"96" heads professional built by Butler Performance
COMP Cams Magnum Double Roller Timing Set
COMP Cams Xtreme Energy Cam and Lifter Kit (PN223)
Pioneer Street Performance Harmonic Balancer
Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake Manifold
Edelbrock Performer Carburetor

Thanks,

Joe


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

joesweeting said:


> We checked the compression in all cylinders and they are low. I think we might of damaged some valves when adjusting the valve lash. I bent 4 push rods and broke one.



 Yeah, that's not good. Please tell us what kind of rocker arms, rocker arm nuts you're using and how you went about adjusting them initially.

Double checking on Comp's web site, I see that a fully adjustable valve train (rockers and poly locks) are -required- for this cam, meaning that you cannot use the factory rockers, or rocker nuts. You also can't use the factory valve springs and the spring seats in the heads have to be machined to accomodate taller springs. If perchance you did try to use factory springs, rockers, and nuts --- that's what caused your problem.

Bear


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## fasterfiero (Sep 6, 2011)

definitely pull heads and check valves, I doubt over tightening the rocker arms a little bent this stuff up just from cranking the engine over while trying to start it. I would check your cam timing ( degree wheel & pointer ) to see when your I & E valves are opening / closing . Usually installing the cam "straight up" ( dots aligned ) is good enough.


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## fasterfiero (Sep 6, 2011)

I just re -read your parts list and you did not mention anything about rocker arms and valve springs....And like Bear said, you need upgraded springs & rockers to run this cam, I can see if you had the stock stuff in there where coil bind could bend and break push-rods once the lifters pumped up, you may luck out on the valves not needing replaced ......


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## joesweeting (May 8, 2011)

Thanks for the info

Head info:

(CCA-988-16) Comp Valve Springs
(PRW-0845501-16) Pontiac 1.52 Ratio Roller Tip Rocker Arms w/Polylocks (7/16)-set

-Competition 3 angle valve job
-FULL bronze guides (not liners) 
-Ferrea Stainless Steel valves 
-Surfaced on all 3 sides 
-Retainers & HD valve locks 
-Tall dual springs 
-New 5/16 guide plates 
-7/16 rocker arm studs 
-HP valve seals 
-Blue printed and assembled

Valve lash setting instructions followed:

To properly adjust valve lash using a hydraulic flat tappet camshaft a sequence must be followed. Begin by working a single cylinder at a time. Turn the engine over by hand, or, have an assistant "bump" the engine over with it's starter. When the ex-haust valve begins to open, STOP! Adjust the lash of the intake valve at this time. Continue turning engine while paying attention to the intake valve. Stop turning engine when the intake valve has opened and is ¾ closed. Adjust the exhaust valve at
this time. Lash adjustment is achieved by sliding the pushrod up and down between the rocker arm and lifter while slowly tightening the rocker arm adjustment nut. When pushrod has no freeplay between the lifter and rocker arm, STOP! Turn the nut 1/2 turn further to preload the lifter.

After not lighting off I kept slacking the valve lash ½ turn about 3 times to trying to get it to light off. 

My course of action is to get another test gauge to verify last pressures. If same will pull heads and inspect valves and check timing is “dot to dot”


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

That's good information Joe. Now I've got another question. Did you verify the correct installed height on all the springs? That's done by installing a valve with no spring, putting on the retainer and locks, seating the valve, then measuring the distance from the spring seat on the head to the bottom of the retainer. If the installed height is too short to match what was specified for those springs, then what can happen as the cam operates is that the springs get driven into coil bind causing nasty things like bent pushrods, broken rockers, etc.

Often when going to a more aggressive cam that needs "more" spring, the spring seats have to be cut down to provide for the correct spring installed height.

Bear


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## joesweeting (May 8, 2011)

Bear,

I did not; they were built by butler performance. I will attach the build sheet.
I scanned it upside down, will need to rotate 180 degrees


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

joesweeting said:


> Bear,
> 
> I did not; they were built by butler performance. I will attach the build sheet.
> I scanned it upside down, will need to rotate 180 degrees


So I take it Butler put your heads together for you, including the springs and all? If so then I'm going to take a leap of faith here and assume they did all that correctly. Who installed your timing chain and gears?

Bear


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## joesweeting (May 8, 2011)

Bear,

The timing chain was installed by a friend, I did not visually verify. He told me he lined it up "dot to dot". I plan on testing compression again with the rocker arms removed to see if compression psi is any different. If so the timing could be off.


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## fasterfiero (Sep 6, 2011)

Joe,
pull the cover and check it, I would not crank the engine without the rockers, every revolution you turn the engine over, you are wiping the assembly lube off the camshaft I would " almost consider pulling the cam at this point, just to re-lube " everything is pointing to the camshaft timing.........


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## 69Goatee (Aug 14, 2009)

:agree DO NOT do a compression check with the rockers off, this will pull a vacuum on the tester that it is not designed for. You WILL ruin it!!


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

joesweeting said:


> Bear,
> 
> The timing chain was installed by a friend, I did not visually verify. He told me he lined it up "dot to dot". I plan on testing compression again with the rocker arms removed to see if compression psi is any different. If so the timing could be off.


Don't do that ---- besides being bad for the tester, it will tell you nothing. The intake valves have to OPEN before the cylinders can draw anything in to compress.

Ok, my prime suspect just became your cam timing and the chain installation. "dot to dot" is the common way to do it, and it's also the common way to get it wrong. With the dots that close together, it's easy to get off a tooth one way or the other. A much better way is to put both dots at 12 o'clock, straight up, then take a ruler or something else with a good straight edge on it and verify that you have a straight line from the dot on the crank gear, -through- the dead center of the cam gear, to the dot on the cam gear. 

Since you've been spinning the motor over a lot trying to start it, I'd go ahead and remove the intake manifold and the lifter cover and recoat all the cam lobes, lifters, pushrod ends, rockers and valve stem tips with assembly lube while I was at it. You want everything good and slick when it fires (and it WILL fire if you get everything installed right).

You know NOT to let it idle for the first 15-20 minutes or so, right?

Bear


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## joesweeting (May 8, 2011)

Good point, I knew it might pull a vacuum, but did not think of it damaging the compression gauge. I have another friend who is an ASE master mechanic and we will look at it this weekend. If he agrees we will pull the timing off cover off to verify proper alignment. Then pull the intake manifold and wind age tray and relub the cam lobes, lifters, pushrod ends, rockers and valve stem tips with assembly lube

It has been about 12 years since I was this far in an engine. I have the break in produces printed out to follow when it lights off


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## joesweeting (May 8, 2011)

*status update*

Did second compression test, same as previous test.

Pulled timing cover off and verified timing marks were "dot to dot" 

Pulled carb & intake, valley pan, headers and heads. 

After pulling drivers side head I noticed #1 cylinder was not at TDC. Verified still "dot to dot" and barred engine over while watching #1 piston. When timing marks were in "dot to dot" position or at “12'oclock position” #1 piston was about an inch from TDC. So I pulled the timing chain and gears and noticed the gear for the crank has 3 key ways. Barred engine until #1 piston was in TDC and reinstalled timing gear and cover. Barred engine over again and verified when "dot to dot" and 12 o’clock position #1 was at TDC . Since valley pan was off verified cam/lifters in correct position also. 

Ordered new gasket set and should be here Wednesday. Will start rebuilding, again when parts arrive. 

Thanks for all of your inputs and I will keep you informed of the progress.


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## torpedo51 (Sep 8, 2009)

I think you mentioned that you adjusted "chased" the lash out of your valves several times. Thats a symptom of a wiped camshaft. If you haven't checked already, maybe verify that while you have it apart...


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

joesweeting said:


> ...So I pulled the timing chain and gears and noticed the gear for the crank has 3 key ways...


Which means more than likely that you've got a timing set that allows you to install the cam "advanced", "retarted", or "straight up". There are probably three 'dots' on the crank gear, all three of them slightly different from each other. Check the instructions that came with your timing set to make sure you've got things installed the way you intend. Generally, you should install the cam "straight up" unless you know exactly what you're doing and why.

Bear


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## joesweeting (May 8, 2011)

Thanks for the information. Built long block Monday, 150-160 PSI per cylinder. Ordered new fuel pump from Butler Performance and does not have the return line. E-mailed Butler Performance and said it is not needed and to cap it. I would assume back at the fuel tank. Any thoughts? I will triple check to verify I cut the correct line.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Yes, cap it back at the tank. The return line will be the smaller of the two.

Having a vapor return will help avoid vapor lock in hot climates/conditions though, FYI --- so if you get it up and running and start having those kinds of problems, keep that in mind.

Bear


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## joesweeting (May 8, 2011)

Engine started and ran great. Thanks for everyones input.


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