# Replaced timing cover/water pump - now coolant in oil



## ragtopgoat (Sep 26, 2019)

Greetings,
Once again I come to the group, hat in hand, looking for the greater wisdom that seems to have escaped me. Some of you might remember back in October, I posted about a catastrophic water pump failure, that led me down the path of replacing my cooling system, timing cover, harmonic balancer and timing chain/gear. After sorting through supply chain issues sourcing parts, I finally got everything together, new radiator, fan, fan clutch, FlowKooler water pump, etc. It took a couple of tries to get the water pump gasket seal to not leak, but I finally got a successful pressure test on the cooling system, which held pressure for five minutes and no leaks at at the water pump!  
I fired up the engine and tested out the cooling system and of course check and adjust timing. Everything looks good, no external leaks, timing within a degree, thermostat opens and holds temps at 160, engine settles into a perfect idle. I shut it down and proceed to drain the oil, only to be greeted by green coolant as the first thing to come out of the oil pan.  I have been thinking that the water passages through the timing cover to the water pump was a questionable design, but some RTV on the gasket, careful torquing of the studs holding the TC, what could go wrong?

So, I'm looking for what my next steps should be. Run some compression checks to make sure that there isn't a head gasket issue? I doubt it, the initial failure was clearly the water pump failure, and nothing else has implicated a head gasket failure.

I did change the oil before firing it up, and there was no coolant in the oil pan before running the engine today. After warming it up and testing the thermostat and timing, I drained the oil and removed the oil filter. I have left the drain plug off, to let any residual oily coolant drain out of the pan. The oil that did come out was approximately 6 quarts (including the oil from the filter), with probably less than a cup of coolant in the oil, so not much. I suspect the gasket seal on the two oil passages are leaking right into the oil pan. I am thinking that once the drips stop from the oil pan, I can pressurize the cooling system again and see if coolant starts dripping out of the drain pain, which would seem like a pretty direct link to a timing cover seal leak.

What advice would others have for me? Other tests I might do before tearing _everything _apart again and starting over? I will say that I switched from Ultra Black RTV to K&W Copper Coat gasket sealer for the water pump gasket and was very impressed how much simpler it was to hold the gasket in place and create a watertight seal! But that was after I used Ultra Black RTV on the timing cover gasket; a thin coat on both sides of the gasket. 

Have others struggled to get a good seal on those coolant passages on the timing cover? 

Thanks in advance for your advice!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

ragtopgoat said:


> Greetings,
> Once again I come to the group, hat in hand, looking for the greater wisdom that seems to have escaped me. Some of you might remember back in October, I posted about a catastrophic water pump failure, that led me down the path of replacing my cooling system, timing cover, harmonic balancer and timing chain/gear. After sorting through supply chain issues sourcing parts, I finally got everything together, new radiator, fan, fan clutch, FlowKooler water pump, etc. It took a couple of tries to get the water pump gasket seal to not leak, but I finally got a successful pressure test on the cooling system, which held pressure for five minutes and no leaks at at the water pump!
> I fired up the engine and tested out the cooling system and of course check and adjust timing. Everything looks good, no external leaks, timing within a degree, thermostat opens and holds temps at 160, engine settles into a perfect idle. I shut it down and proceed to drain the oil, only to be greeted by green coolant as the first thing to come out of the oil pan.  I have been thinking that the water passages through the timing cover to the water pump was a questionable design, but some RTV on the gasket, careful torquing of the studs holding the TC, what could go wrong?
> 
> ...


Well, I would think a bad gasket seal. Look at the pic showing the back of the timing cover. No way to have any leaks if the gasket is good. You said you bought a new timing cover. It is possible that not being factory, that it may be warped or the surface not perfectly flat.

Just for fun, you could go and rent one of the radiator pressurizing kits that will pressurize your cooling system and then look to see if you see anything obvious. They have a dye you can use to help detect any leaks. Leave the oil plug out and if any coolant is getting into the engine from the timing cover, it should run out under pressure. If you had a bore scope, it might be possible to snake it through the oil plug hole and look and see where in the engine the coolant is coming from.

But other than that, I would think it is a bad gasket sealing issue. You are sure the coolant was not left there previously?


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## ragtopgoat (Sep 26, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> Well, I would think a bad gasket seal. Look at the pic showing the back of the timing cover. No way to have any leaks if the gasket is good. You said you bought a new timing cover. It is possible that not being factory, that it may be warped or the surface not perfectly flat.
> 
> Just for fun, you could go and rent one of the radiator pressurizing kits that will pressurize your cooling system and then look to see if you see anything obvious. They have a dye you can use to help detect any leaks. Leave the oil plug out and if any coolant is getting into the engine from the timing cover, it should run out under pressure. If you had a bore scope, it might be possible to snake it through the oil plug hole and look and see where in the engine the coolant is coming from.
> 
> ...


The timing cover was a reconditioned unit from Butler and was in good shape. I didn’t check the mounting surface with a straight edge before I installed it, but it looked to be straight. I thought of doing what you suggested and pressurize the cooling system with the drain plug out and see if some coolant starts dripping. I have a cooling system tester so easy enough to do. I did pressure test it before I fired the engine up, which was how I found the water pump leaks. My final test was leak free at the WP seal and held pressure, which is why this is so frustrating that once I fired it up, it leaked in to the pan. Maybe the heat expansion triggered the leak that didn’t show when it was stone cold.


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## lust4speed (Jul 5, 2019)

I'd say that you will be taking the timing cover back off. A time saver is to leave the water pump bolted up to the timing cover and take them off as a unit. Older stock timing covers usually had three of the lower threaded pump to cover bolt holes going through to the oil. Pontiac got around any problem by using studs on these, but you would also have to have a bad water pump gasket to allow seepage down the bolt into the oil (and probably a very small leak and not what you had). The aftermarket unit photo that Jim posted is a better cover than the original piece. Not only blind bolt holes on the lower three but all the sealing surfaces are thicker. They also narrowed down the crossover hole that always gets eaten away larger. Figure any coolant going through that hole is recycled right back into the engine and not through the radiator. A little hole is necessary but a grossly enlarged hole could reduce flow to the radiator by thirty to forty percent.

I might wager that a section of the new gasket blew out at the coolant passage on one of the sides. If it did that would indicate that the cover is warped and there wasn't enough pressure in that area. You can pretty much take a piece of plate glass with a sheet of waterproof sand paper and scrub the gasket sealing surface and see if you get full contact. If the problem is found to be in this area I'd correct the warpage and use the silicone sealant on both sides and give it at least 24 hours to set up before adding coolant again.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I've been working on these engines for over 40 years and have never run into this issue. Am I just lucky or have any of you guys run into this????

Worse I've seen is some coolant dripping into the front of the pan from the block holes. All the ones I've done had the studs in place and were OEM in-service components, not aftermarket or 'rebuilt'.


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

i just got done doing this repair also, and like others i never ever had an issue with a leak, call it luck i dont know but id look at the gasket being "not" around some of the bolts on the cover. or call it misaligned gasket whatever id bet its not on there right.
good luck


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## ragtopgoat (Sep 26, 2019)

I just now reran a pressure test on the radiator/cooling system with coolant in the system, but the drain plug out of the oil pan. The drain plug has been out since yesterday and had stopped dripping. Then when I pressurized the system to 15 psi, after 5 minutes it started dripping an oily coolant solution out of the oil pan drain. So there's definitely a leak from the cooling system into the oil pan. The question is whether it is coming from the timing cover or from a head gasket. 

Seems like it might be worth testing to eliminate a head gasket issue before I tear down the timing cover.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

ragtopgoat said:


> The timing cover was a reconditioned unit from Butler and was in good shape. I didn’t check the mounting surface with a straight edge before I installed it, but it looked to be straight. I thought of doing what you suggested and pressurize the cooling system with the drain plug out and see if some coolant starts dripping. I have a cooling system tester so easy enough to do. I did pressure test it before I fired the engine up, which was how I found the water pump leaks. My final test was leak free at the WP seal and held pressure, which is why this is so frustrating that once I fired it up, it leaked in to the pan. Maybe the heat expansion triggered the leak that didn’t show when it was stone cold.


Check with your pressure kit, re-check to make sure no bolts that hold the timing cover have loosened up. It is possible the engine heat caused expansion and allowed a slight leak, but not too likely unless bolts may have been loose or cover warped.

Did you install new lower block-to-timing timing cover alignment sleeves? These inserts align the timing cover and of course, the crank seal - AS LONG AS THE BLOCK HAS NOT BEEN ALIGN BORED/HONED. They can be pulled out and forgotten or knocked to far in making them useless.

IF the engine has been line bored/honed, it can change the position of the crank relative to the seal and cause an offset to the seal and develop a leak. IF this has been done, or you use an aftermarket timing cover that does not have the machined groove the sleeve fits into, or simply prefer not to use them. IF YOU DON'T USE THE SLEEVES - Put the timing cover with new seal and gaskets on loosely and install the balancer all the way in. Use the balancer's shaft to center the timing cover seal before tightening the cover bolts.
Pic #1 of the alignment sleeves and cover.

It is possible the gasket may be too thin as sometimes these aftermarket gasket are too thin and made of a different material other than factory and they can slip/squeeze out. Had that experience. I was told to use the "Yellow" gasket adhesive on one side of the gasket to glue it into place so it would not slip out - this was on a rubber pan seal. My machinist says he uses a little on all gaskets and I have watched him dab it on during a rebuild. I am not a fan of the RTV silicone stuff. You have to use the correct stuff for your application. Too much and it can squeeze out internally, break loose, and find its way into your engine/engine oil, or whatever. Not enough and it does not seal. Gotta follow the directions. I have of course used it, but prefer not as it seems like a bandaide - newer cars use it and are made to use it. KRE offers some timing cover gaskets that are .035" thick. Not sure why they mention the thickness, but it may be because the "kit" gaskets are too thin and don't seal well if there is any imperfection or warpage. You might check out their website and purchase their gasket.

The other thing I was also thinking was the O-ring at the top that seal the cover to the front of the manifold. If the O-ring were to thick/hard, it could be pushing back on the cover as it won't compress enough and cause the cover to pull away from the top of the gasket area. On the other hand, if the O-ring were too thin (which many aftermarket "kit" O-rings are), when you tightened up on the long bolt, you are pulling that timing cover in and possibly causing a warp effect that shows up moreso when heated up and allows water past the gasket.

You want the intake bolts loose and the intake free to move. This allows you to pull/draw the intake to the timig cover and seal the O-ring, rather than pulling the timing cover to the intake - which usually ends in a leak. The long bolt has a torque factor so you get it tight enough and not over tight and break it in the intake.


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## ragtopgoat (Sep 26, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> Check with your pressure kit, re-check to make sure no bolts that hold the timing cover have loosened up. It is possible the engine heat caused expansion and allowed a slight leak, but not too likely unless bolts may have been loose or cover warped.
> 
> Did you install new lower block-to-timing timing cover alignment sleeves? These inserts align the timing cover and of course, the crank seal - AS LONG AS THE BLOCK HAS NOT BEEN ALIGN BORED/HONED. They can be pulled out and forgotten or knocked to far in making them useless.


The timing cover was previously mounted with six studs, nuts and washers. I reused those as they were in good shape, no corrosion. Since the timing cover was on six studs and didn't have the alignment sleeves, I didn't use them this time. Instead slid the TC on the studs, finger tight on the nuts, then inserted the dampener to make sure it was centered, then tightened down the nuts. With the black RTV (light coat on both sides of the gasket), I followed their directions, finger tightening the nuts, waited an hour then torqued it down. 



PontiacJim said:


> IF the engine has been line bored/honed, it can change the position of the crank relative to the seal and cause an offset to the seal and develop a leak. IF this has been done, or you use an aftermarket timing cover that does not have the machined groove the sleeve fits into, or simply prefer not to use them. IF YOU DON'T USE THE SLEEVES - Put the timing cover with new seal and gaskets on loosely and install the balancer all the way in. Use the balancer's shaft to center the timing cover seal before tightening the cover bolts.
> Pic #1 of the alignment sleeves and cover.


This is what I did. 



PontiacJim said:


> It is possible the gasket may be too thin as sometimes these aftermarket gasket are too thin and made of a different material other than factory and they can slip/squeeze out. Had that experience. I was told to use the "Yellow" gasket adhesive on one side of the gasket to glue it into place so it would not slip out - this was on a rubber pan seal. My machinist says he uses a little on all gaskets and I have watched him dab it on during a rebuild. I am not a fan of the RTV silicone stuff. You have to use the correct stuff for your application. Too much and it can squeeze out internally, break loose, and find its way into your engine/engine oil, or whatever. Not enough and it does not seal. Gotta follow the directions. I have of course used it, but prefer not as it seems like a bandaide - newer cars use it and are made to use it. KRE offers some timing cover gaskets that are .035" thick. Not sure why they mention the thickness, but it may be because the "kit" gaskets are too thin and don't seal well if there is any imperfection or warpage. You might check out their website and purchase their gasket.
> 
> The other thing I was also thinking was the O-ring at the top that seal the cover to the front of the manifold. If the O-ring were to thick/hard, it could be pushing back on the cover as it won't compress enough and cause the cover to pull away from the top of the gasket area. On the other hand, if the O-ring were too thin (which many aftermarket "kit" O-rings are), when you tightened up on the long bolt, you are pulling that timing cover in and possibly causing a warp effect that shows up moreso when heated up and allows water past the gasket.
> 
> You want the intake bolts loose and the intake free to move. This allows you to pull/draw the intake to the timig cover and seal the O-ring, rather than pulling the timing cover to the intake - which usually ends in a leak. The long bolt has a torque factor so you get it tight enough and not over tight and break it in the intake.


So I did not loosen the intake manifold when I replaced the timing cover. My shop manual did not indicate that was necessary and from what I've read, you only need to do that when installing the intake manifold, to make sure it is drawn tight to the timing cover. If I have that wrong and I should have loosened the intake manifold, please correct me! Seems to me that if I loosen the intake manifold for this purpose, i would need to install new gaskets on it too.

I simply put a light coat of RTV on both sides of the o-ring and tightened the long bolt to 12 ft lbs. That seal is dry, and from what I can see on the outside of the timing cover it appears to have a tight seal on the front of the block, with a bit of the RTV squeezing out.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

ragtopgoat said:


> The timing cover was previously mounted with six studs, nuts and washers. I reused those as they were in good shape, no corrosion. Since the timing cover was on six studs and didn't have the alignment sleeves, I didn't use them this time. Instead slid the TC on the studs, finger tight on the nuts, then inserted the dampener to make sure it was centered, then tightened down the nuts. With the black RTV (light coat on both sides of the gasket), I followed their directions, finger tightening the nuts, waited an hour then torqued it down.
> 
> 
> This is what I did.
> ...


OK, sounds about right. Just throwing out "things" to consider. The manual may not mention the drawing of the intake to the timing cover to squeeze the O-ring seal. And yes, most likely you would install new gaskets because you would want to break the intake loose so it moves. Not saying this has to always be done, but often, someone will get this mysterious coolant leak they can't find and only see it on the valley cover or running out the back of the block. This is that seal leaking when it is under pressure - like high RPM's, but then at normal speeds, it does not show up. So it leaves many hunting for a leak they cannot find and it was because the intake was not drawn tight onto the O-ring seal first to crush it, and then you tighten the intake bolts. And some of the seals are thin so just replacing them when doing the timig cover can lead to that mystery leak. They used to, may still, make an O-ring seal that was a little over sized that helped in some cases.

Still hoping a timing cover water leak and not from anywhere else - as that would be the easiest fix. If we put our cars together and they never broke down or never needed repairs, we would get bored, sell them, and move on to the next project - just like a reality TV show. 

And we would not have any excuses when kicking the cat across the room.


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## ragtopgoat (Sep 26, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> OK, sounds about right. Just throwing out "things" to consider. The manual may not mention the drawing of the intake to the timing cover to squeeze the O-ring seal. And yes, most likely you would install new gaskets because you would want to break the intake loose so it moves. Not saying this has to always be done, but often, someone will get this mysterious coolant leak they can't find and only see it on the valley cover or running out the back of the block. This is that seal leaking when it is under pressure - like high RPM's, but then at normal speeds, it does not show up. So it leaves many hunting for a leak they cannot find and it was because the intake was not drawn tight onto the O-ring seal first to crush it, and then you tighten the intake bolts. And some of the seals are thin so just replacing them when doing the timig cover can lead to that mystery leak. They used to, may still, make an O-ring seal that was a little over sized that helped in some cases.
> 
> Still hoping a timing cover water leak and not from anywhere else - as that would be the easiest fix. If we put our cars together and they never broke down or never needed repairs, we would get bored, sell them, and move on to the next project - just like a reality TV show.
> 
> And we would not have any excuses when kicking the cat across the room.


Thanks Jim for your sage advice and insights. I am looking for things to consider in situations like this, as it is not obvious and the teardown can be a lot of work, only to find that the problem was somewhere else!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

geeteeohguy said:


> I've been working on these engines for over 40 years and have never run into this issue. Am I just lucky or have any of you guys run into this????
> 
> Worse I've seen is some coolant dripping into the front of the pan from the block holes. All the ones I've done had the studs in place and were OEM in-service components, not aftermarket or 'rebuilt'.


I had it on my 66 lemans. There are a few different gaskets on the intake that if misinstalled, will cause issue.

In my case, I was so young and stupid (as opposed to old and stupid, like I am now) that I just sold the car... but I had just put a gasket on wrong.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Old and stupid wins the day. It'll have to. It's all we've got left!


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## 66COUPE (Jul 23, 2021)

geeteeohguy said:


> Old and stupid wins the day. It'll have to. It's all we've got left!


I installed a new timing chain this summer and the timing chain gasket set from Ames came with their “slightly thicker “ intake to cover rubber seal , I didn’t use the alignment sleeves as they just seemed to get in the way and I didn’t loosen the intake either, so far so good with no leaks, my mechanic buddy kinda walked me through it while he drank most of my beer and smoked cigarettes non stop, he was a real “army sergeant “ when it came to making sure my surfaces on the block were the gaskets go was clean and I mean clean, razor blade clean and there were areas that really took work to get “clean “
it sounds like you’re going to have to pull the cover again so really inspect and use a heavy duty utility razor blade on that block surface. Good luck 👍


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

66COUPE said:


> I installed a new timing chain this summer and the timing chain gasket set from Ames came with their “slightly thicker “ intake to cover rubber seal , I didn’t use the alignment sleeves as they just seemed to get in the way and I didn’t loosen the intake either, so far so good with no leaks, my mechanic buddy kinda walked me through it while he drank most of my beer and smoked cigarettes non stop, he was a real “army sergeant “ when it came to making sure my surfaces on the block were the gaskets go was clean and I mean clean, razor blade clean and there were areas that really took work to get “clean “
> it sounds like you’re going to have to pull the cover again so really inspect and use a heavy duty utility razor blade on that block surface. Good luck 👍
> View attachment 160163


Funny story on those alignment sleaves. I built my engine with almost all brand new parts. Including the timing cover because the one off the old engine was all pitted on the mounting surfaces where the water goes through to the block. I had bought all new hardware including the alignment sleaves. After I get everything assembled I noticed that the alignment sleaves were still in the box that I had all of the parts and hardware in. I thought about taking it all apart and redoing it. Then I thought better about it, shut the light off, went upstairs, and cracked a beer. So far, no leaks so I'll pretend that mistake didn't happen until one develops.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Jared said:


> Funny story on those alignment sleaves. I built my engine with almost all brand new parts. Including the timing cover because the one off the old engine was all pitted on the mounting surfaces where the water goes through to the block. I had bought all new hardware including the alignment sleaves. After I get everything assembled I noticed that the alignment sleaves were still in the box that I had all of the parts and hardware in. I thought about taking it all apart and redoing it. Then I thought better about it, shut the light off, went upstairs, and cracked a beer. So far, no leaks so I'll pretend that mistake didn't happen until one develops.



Sometimes it is so much better when we don't know what we don't know. I've done a bunch of things on/with cars that I did not know wouldn't work. Luckily, _*my car*_ did not know this either.

When you do a job and you don't have parts left over, you did something wrong.

I don't stop and ask for directions either, I'll drive around lost for hours until I find where I want to be. 

Ignorance is bliss.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

When I swapped my cam last November, all went well and I drove around enjoying the car for the next 6 months.

In April, when I went to install the Tremec, my guitar player was turning the crank while I checked the bell housing runout/ alignment. He says "you're missing a few bolts up here".

So, sure enough, I forgot to put in two of the new bolts that Butler sent... and I just assumed they were extras! When I went to put them in, I couldnt, because Ultra Grey had seeped into the threaded block holes.

Had a couple convo's with @PontiacJim about whether or not those holes ran through into the oil galley, or not... Then ultimately took a pick, cleaned them out slowly and carefully, and added the bolts.

What's the moral of the story?

ALWAYS USE PERMATEX ULTRA GREY! I drove several thousand miles with out two bolt in my timing cover. That shit is the bees knees!


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

man i've got drawers full of "left over" bolts, means i screwed up a lot of stuf ?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

About 20 years ago I tore the front end out of my 4x4 4Runner to replace an inner CV shaft boot. This was at home on the ground in the garage in winter. When I got done, _hours_ later, As I lowered the floor jack I noticed a small, tempered C-clip on the ground.....it was the inner CV C-clip and I hadn't noticed that it was on the ground and not on the axle stub shaft. I had to re-do the entire job, this time it took about an hour I was so pissed. When I worked at shops, we used to set odd ball bearings on the ground if the guy was doing strut plates, or gold anodized bolts if he was doing a clutch job, etc. so the guys would think they left something critical out. One guy got me once with the ball bearings, and waited until I racked the car back up and started to pull the wheels back off when he laughed and told me. Fun times....


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