# R.I.P. Pontiac: General Motors Kills Iconic Brand



## Administrator (Mar 14, 2008)

As we reported last week, General Motors has indeed made the decision to kill the Pontiac brand. The news comes as a part of a new viability plan (yes… another one) submitted to the federal government today.

The new plan will see Pontiac eliminated by the end of 2010, but that's not all… not by a long shot. Also included in the new proposal is a long list of drastic and sweeping changes that General Motors says are much needed in order to stay in business. Among the list of big changes is the fast-track dissolution of Saturn. Originally scheduled to be dismantled by the end of 2010, the plan now states that the niche brand will be eliminated by the end of this year.

Also on the chopping block are half of all current U.S. General Motors dealerships. Not surprisingly, GM's previous viability plan wasn't pessimistic enough, calling for 34 percent of the current 6,246 dealerships to close. That number is now a solid 50 percent.

Other major cuts include the closing of three plants and the loss of 7,000 more hourly workers. This would put the number of hourly workers at 40,000 - 7,000 less than the last viability plan said there would be and 21,000 less than there were in 2008.

In total GM will cut 14 models from its lineup, with just 34 different vehicles being offered in 2010.

Most importantly, however, is that General Motors will offer current debt holders stock in order to reduce the company's debt. But if too few debt holders cash in, then GM will go bankrupt. And that is looking quite likely as GM says it needs approximately 90 percent of its unsecured debt covered or else it believe the U.S. Treasury will not see the company as viable.

General Motors still faces the likelihood of filing for Chapter 11 but in the mean time it will run with its new viability plan and concentrate on its core brands: Chevy, Buick, Cadillac and GMC. With just over a month to go before the Obama Administration's June 1st deadline, however, nothing is really certain. Maybe there will be another viability plan? Maybe more will be cut…

More: *R.I.P. Pontiac: General Motors Kills Iconic Brand* on AutoGuide.com


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## PhantomTiger (Feb 15, 2005)

I hear the real reason they eliminated Pontiac, was the return of a prior GM division, now called:
http://www.gtoforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4661&stc=1&d=1241724324


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

Is Buick doing so well that it was spared over Pontiac? There is absolutely nothing in Buick's lineup that will get my money. I rather see Saturn stay over Buick. Oh well!


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## REX (Jan 21, 2009)

6QTS11OZ said:


> Is Buick doing so well that it was spared over Pontiac? There is absolutely nothing in Buick's lineup that will get my money. I rather see Saturn stay over Buick. Oh well!


It's not the USA sales that they are concerned about... it's China, and China apperently likes to drive Buicks. Plus, GM only has to pay a Chineese line worker $3700 per year to build those Buicks.

On top of that, after they take all of our tax money for their bailout they are moving the jobs overseas. Heck of a deal hunh?

washingtonpost.com


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## dustyminpin (Jun 19, 2006)

6QTS11OZ said:


> Is Buick doing so well that it was spared over Pontiac? There is absolutely nothing in Buick's lineup that will get my money. I rather see Saturn stay over Buick. Oh well!


:agree


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## docta J (Sep 7, 2008)

instead of the obama administration taking over gm and killing brands like pontiac and saturn, they should raise the tariff on those rice burners so the car's price will go up. dumbasses that drive hondas and toyotas arent going to pay $25k for a base model civic or camry so they'll buy a cobalt or G5 for a lot less (and realize that they get better mpg than rice burners anyways) and gm would be back on they're feet. voila!

i hate people who are in love with their damn prius. they look like an ass driving them.
the G8 GXP barely saw the light of day :'(


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## thrasher926 (May 7, 2009)

Pontiac is by far my favorite make out of any company. from the grand prix's to the firebirds and trans ams to the GTOs and G8s and even Solstices. Where im from in Michigan all we have left is motor city and GM plants for good jobs and income. Lets see how many union and Americans stay faithful to GM. If it werent for the Chevelles and camaros and Vettes Id say i wish GM would go bankrupt all together.


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## orangestorm (Nov 13, 2008)

What a Damn shame!


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## Skrub (Jan 10, 2009)

docta J said:


> instead of the obama administration taking over gm and killing brands like pontiac and saturn, they should raise the tariff on those rice burners so the car's price will go up. dumbasses that drive hondas and toyotas arent going to pay $25k for a base model civic or camry so they'll buy a cobalt or G5 for a lot less (and realize that they get better mpg than rice burners anyways) and gm would be back on they're feet. voila!
> 
> i hate people who are in love with their damn prius. they look like an ass driving them.
> the G8 GXP barely saw the light of day :'(


Last I checked a base model civic is only 18-19k while the SI is roughly 20-21k where I live. Hondas are making a lot more money than gas guzzlers, why would Obama take it to them? Obama's an earth lover, what makes you think hell take out the most efficient car of today? Honda is now debating on bringing over the Type R to US so thats a flag that Honda isnt going anywhere anytime soon. Soon enough youll have a Honda when Obama is through with his 4 years, gas will end up being $5 a gallon. Cobalts are trash, who would by the SuperSlow? I would get a Mazda S3 over that trash for less


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Skrub said:


> Last I checked a base model civic is only 18-19k while the SI is roughly 20-21k where I live. Hondas are making a lot more money than gas guzzlers, why would Obama take it to them? Obama's an earth lover, what makes you think hell take out the most efficient car of today? Honda is now debating on bringing over the Type R to US so thats a flag that Honda isnt going anywhere anytime soon. Soon enough youll have a Honda when Obama is through with his 4 years, gas will end up being $5 a gallon. *Cobalts are trash,* who would by the SuperSlow? I would get a Mazda S3 over that trash for less


I disagree with that. Cobalts are a pretty reliable car. Not everyone buys one to race. If someone is looking for a fairly inexpensive reliable car that car would go to to toe with most garbage out there particularly the throw line of cars away cars from Hyundai and Suzuki.


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## docta J (Sep 7, 2008)

Skrub said:


> Last I checked a base model civic is only 18-19k while the SI is roughly 20-21k where I live. Hondas are making a lot more money than gas guzzlers, why would Obama take it to them? Obama's an earth lover, what makes you think hell take out the most efficient car of today? Honda is now debating on bringing over the Type R to US so thats a flag that Honda isnt going anywhere anytime soon. Soon enough youll have a Honda when Obama is through with his 4 years, gas will end up being $5 a gallon. Cobalts are trash, who would by the SuperSlow? I would get a Mazda S3 over that trash for less


i will *NEVER* own a pos honda or toyota. they are one of the reasons our economy is so bad. they make cheap pieces of --- that people buy because of their mpg claims. what those people dont know is that american automakers make just as good of mpg cars. the rice burners might get one or two mpg more, but they wont last as long as a gm would. when those people buy asian cars, they are supporting them. with more people buying foreign cars, american automakers produce less, therefore laying off more employees, then the unemployment rate goes up. gm used to be #1 on the fortune 500 and ford and chrysler not far behind, now thats almost unheard of. #1 on the list now is effin wal-mart. what's wrong with wal-mart you ask? most of their crap is made overseas and they are a non-union company. frugal people buy hondas and shop at wal-mart just to save a few pennies when they wouldn't need to save a few pennies if they supported america. yes, bush screwed up a bit, but people are not doing anything for their country by buying overseas products.

the best cars are the ones made here in america, not china. way to support your country bud.

last i checked, the new fusion hybrid can get 41 mpg (in the city!!) and starts just over $19k, and will probably still kill a honda in the 1/4 mile


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## AA GTO SP (Nov 11, 2006)

docta J said:


> i will *NEVER* own a pos honda or toyota. they are one of the reasons our economy is so bad. they make cheap pieces of --- that people buy because of their mpg claims. what those people dont know is that american automakers make just as good of mpg cars. the rice burners might get one or two mpg more, but they wont last as long as a gm would. when those people buy asian cars, they are supporting them. with more people buying foreign cars, american automakers produce less, therefore laying off more employees, then the unemployment rate goes up. gm used to be #1 on the fortune 500 and ford and chrysler not far behind, now thats almost unheard of. #1 on the list now is effin wal-mart. what's wrong with wal-mart you ask? most of their crap is made overseas and they are a non-union company. frugal people buy hondas and shop at wal-mart just to save a few pennies when they wouldn't need to save a few pennies if they supported america. yes, bush screwed up a bit, but people are not doing anything for their country by buying overseas products.
> 
> the best cars are the ones made here in america, not china. way to support your country bud.


 I agree that I will also not be buying a foreign car for as long as I can. However, I challenge you to look at the origin of many of the products around your own house- are the majority made in America? National support starts in the American home.


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## docta J (Sep 7, 2008)

AA GTO SP said:


> I agree that I will also not be buying a foreign car for as long as I can. However, I challenge you to look at the origin of many of the products around your own house- are the majority made in America? National support starts in the American home.


you have a good point about that. yes a lot of the little things around my house aren't made in america. i do own things made by sony and toshiba, etc. but its not like those competing american companies are struggling. i knew someone was going to say something like this. you have to agree that american automakers make some of the best cars in the world and when they're hurting the most like now, the one thing you can do is support them.

p.s. toyota's are still junk, recession or not


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## Aramz06 (Mar 2, 2008)

docta J said:


> you have a good point about that. yes a lot of the little things around my house aren't made in america. i do own things made by sony and toshiba, etc. but its not like those competing american companies are struggling. i knew someone was going to say something like this. you have to agree that american automakers make some of the best cars in the world and when they're hurting the most like now, the one thing you can do is support them.
> 
> p.s. toyota's are still junk, recession or not


Your looking at this the wrong way. You have the money to afford the car you like, so you stay away from foreign cars. Not everyone can look at this situation with your eyes. For example, my brother just returned his mustang and is in college, so he needs less payments. I helped him search up and shop around and it turns out the best bang for the buck for him is a basic civic coupe. If not the civic coupe it would be a basic lancer. Not everyone has cash to lay down and drive home they're favorite car. He can't get a loan because of this economy... why the hell should he "care" about the economy and buy a car that he will pay higher payments on, jeopardize his credit because of late payments, just to help the economy jam that others got us into. Helping out the economy by buying a car from a government owned company is the last thing I would consider. 

And the fact is, neither Toyota's nor Honda's are junk, no company makes junk cars anymore. These days its about what you can afford and what you prefer, times have changed.


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## AA GTO SP (Nov 11, 2006)

Aramz06 said:


> Your looking at this the wrong way. You have the money to afford the car you like, so you stay away from foreign cars. Not everyone can look at this situation with your eyes. For example, my brother just returned his mustang and is in college, so he needs less payments. I helped him search up and shop around and it turns out the best bang for the buck for him is a basic civic coupe. If not the civic coupe it would be a basic lancer. Not everyone has cash to lay down and drive home they're favorite car. He can't get a loan because of this economy... why the hell should he "care" about the economy and buy a car that he will pay higher payments on, jeopardize his credit because of late payments, just to help the economy jam that others got us into. Helping out the economy by buying a car from a government owned company is the last thing I would consider.
> 
> And the fact is, neither Toyota's nor Honda's are junk, no company makes junk cars anymore. These days its about what you can afford and what you prefer, times have changed.


 I haven't priced out civics, lancers, or other small cars recently, but aren't their American competitors similarly priced and equipped?


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## Aramz06 (Mar 2, 2008)

AA GTO SP said:


> I haven't priced out civics, lancers, or other small cars recently, but aren't their American competitors similarly priced and equipped?


As for us shopping around for the best deals, civic was cheapest and offered the most at that price.


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## docta J (Sep 7, 2008)

i bought my goat because i wanted to, i didnt have the cash to lay down, i needed a loan. you can get basic american car models here for around the same price as a foreign one. buy a used one, why does it have to be new? at least if your driving an american car, you know it wasnt assembled by a kid getting paid $0.13 an hour.


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## Aramz06 (Mar 2, 2008)

docta J said:


> i bought my goat because i wanted to, i didnt have the cash to lay down, i needed a loan. you can get basic american car models here for around the same price as a foreign one. buy a used one, why does it have to be new? *at least if your driving an american car, you know it wasnt assembled by a kid getting paid $0.13 an hour.*


That's beyond the point and just wrong of you to mention. That's why Toyota's have one of the most reputable and reliable names in the business? The point of buying new is a lease for one, also lower payments, warranties, most used require cash down, maybe they want a newly released car, and confidence in driving a new car that has never been beaten by anyone else... the list goes on. Like I said not everyone is in the same position as you, for some its a better idea to buy a new, foreign car.


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## docta J (Sep 7, 2008)

whatever floats your boat


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## Skrub (Jan 10, 2009)

docta J said:


> i will *NEVER* own a pos honda or toyota. they are one of the reasons our economy is so bad. they make cheap pieces of --- that people buy because of their mpg claims. what those people dont know is that american automakers make just as good of mpg cars. the rice burners might get one or two mpg more, but they wont last as long as a gm would. when those people buy asian cars, they are supporting them. with more people buying foreign cars, american automakers produce less, therefore laying off more employees, then the unemployment rate goes up. gm used to be #1 on the fortune 500 and ford and chrysler not far behind, now thats almost unheard of. #1 on the list now is effin wal-mart. what's wrong with wal-mart you ask? most of their crap is made overseas and they are a non-union company. frugal people buy hondas and shop at wal-mart just to save a few pennies when they wouldn't need to save a few pennies if they supported america. yes, bush screwed up a bit, but people are not doing anything for their country by buying overseas products.
> 
> the best cars are the ones made here in america, not china. way to support your country bud.
> 
> last i checked, the new fusion hybrid can get 41 mpg (in the city!!) and starts just over $19k, and will probably still kill a honda in the 1/4 mile


Thats your choice and decision to say youll never own a honda. All my friends are getting rid of their muscle cars for a honda or something with better gas mileage. Either that or their car stays in the garage and never sees the light of day (friends Mustang). Civics have 56% American parts built on their cars. So, technically civics are more american than foreign. My friends step brother just bought a 07 civic si with a HFP kit right when he got back from bootcamp. Bush didnt screw up as much as obama is right now. And Im not going to get into that discussion. If someone wants to start a politics thread ill be more than happy to go in that.

On Cars.com 09 civics are going for 15k (base model) with 2k miles on it. 09 si's are going for 20k-. While searching for goats, I could only get 60 searches of goats from 150 miles from where I live. Including the older goats. 06 goats are going for 25k- with less gas miledge than the civic.

Im not compairing both cars, because they are pretty different. Just stating the obvious. Because you are obviously wrong.


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## AA GTO SP (Nov 11, 2006)

Skrub said:


> Thats your choice and decision to say youll never own a honda. All my friends are getting rid of their muscle cars for a honda or something with better gas mileage. Either that or their car stays in the garage and never sees the light of day (friends Mustang). Civics have 56% American parts built on their cars. So, technically civics are more american than foreign. My friends step brother just bought a 07 civic si with a HFP kit right when he got back from bootcamp. Bush didnt screw up as much as obama is right now. And Im not going to get into that discussion. If someone wants to start a politics thread ill be more than happy to go in that.
> 
> On Cars.com 09 civics are going for 15k (base model) with 2k miles on it. 09 si's are going for 20k-. While searching for goats, I could only get 60 searches of goats from 150 miles from where I live. Including the older goats. 06 goats are going for 25k- with less gas miledge than the civic.
> 
> Im not compairing both cars, because they are pretty different. Just stating the obvious. Because you are obviously wrong.



Cars in general are selling for cheaper now then they were when the economy was better off. It isn't just the Civic that is miraculously prospering from people buying more fuel efficient vehicles. And no you can't compare the GTO and the Civic. I personally see the prices of goats lower than ever before, but I also don't look for deals on cars.com. Bottom line- get what you can afford, and that you like.(if you have that luxury)


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## VettenGoat (Jun 19, 2007)

I raise a beer to Goat of old and lament the passing of Pontiac. I cannot however help but think they brought it on themselves. We old Goats waited 30 years for the return of the GTO. Pontiac could have once again been the cutting edge and rode on the retro wave that has carried the Mustang and Challenger, but no, some smug ass yuppie marketing director blew off the sage advise to leverage the new GTO with the old GTO legacy leaving us old guys shaking our heads. His quote "We're looking ahead not behind". Well, I hope now he's looking for a job. Ole Poncho' this ones for you.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

I have been saying the same thing when the G6 came out:
What he has to say pretty much sums it up.........

This is from Jim Wangers:

"If there was ever a domestic manufacturer that ever had a really good set of names it was Pontiac - Bonneville, Grand Prix, Trans Am! And then all these little boys in men's jobs come along, and come up with insanely stupid 'G' names."

*What was your reaction to the news that Pontiac will be closed?*

I must confess it did not really surprise me. The whole Pontiac concept, really, their well-earned image of building high performance cars, has been so seriously compromised over the last 30 years that none of this is really a big surprise

People ask me, “When did Pontiac start to go downhill?”

I say, the day the door hit John DeLorean in the ass for the last time. After DeLorean left, the brand was run by one after another of GM’s soldiers.

*What was the secret to Pontiac’s success in the 1960s?*

The management.

DeLorean was the third of three really quality general managers who really understood the picture, the image Pontiac had created for itself. [The other two were Bunkie Knudsen and Pete Estes].

*Who do you blame for the brands demise?*

You blame Pontiac. You blame Pontiac and their marketing team.

There were good cars that Pontiac failed to take advantage of. For instance, the early 80s 6000STE. That was a fun car to drive but it needed a better engine.

We put a presentation together for the general manager at the time, Mike Losh, to demand than he get rid of the carbureted 2.8-liter V-6. He never understood, never had an inclination to do it. And every reason that he had was a dollar, which has been what's running GM for 35 years.

One of the worst things that happened was when they came out with the new GTO. *It was so badly handled, packaged, and marketed. *They changed so many things, they failed to jump on what it really meant to be a GTO

When they failed with that -- that was the end. That really was the beginning of the end. When you bring back your number one nameplate, and it fails, you haven’t got much room to go anywhere else.

Then they had the crazy idea of changing the names.

If there was ever a domestic manufacturer that ever had a really good set of names it was Pontiac – Bonneville, Grand Prix, Trans Am! And then *all these little boys in men’s jobs come along, and come up with insanely stupid ‘G’ names.*

*You’re still very active among Pontiac enthusiasts. How do you think the community will proceed now that the brand is dead?*

I would say that the hobby may just thrive over it.

*Pontiac badly mishandled the promotion on the new GTO.* They ignored the committed the Pontiac enthusiast, and as a result, the hobby has already pretty much separated itself from the modern brand.

And it’s huge – not as big as Ford and Chevy communities - but certainly a whole lot stronger than those for brands like Oldsmobile and Buick.

In fact, there will be a huge Pontiac convention this summer, from July 7-11th. POCI [Pontiac-Oakland Club International] and GTOAA [GTO Association of America] are coming together for what could be the biggest Pontiac gathering ever.

*Do you think there’s a place today for a brand like the Pontiac of the 1960s?*

The answer is yes. There will always be a place for a guy who builds - and if I can use this cornball term – excitement. But no, I don’t think that place is Pontiac because they’ve allowed it to deteriorate so badly that the only people who still get it are really the all out auto enthusiast or maybe anyone who’s over 45 or 50.
Jim Wangers on the death of Pontiac excitement | Editors' Soapbox Blog & Discussion at Automobile Magazine


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## AA GTO SP (Nov 11, 2006)

Thanks for that post, Judge. I haven't been around for most of the events discussed in that interview, but I am concerned about things getting straightened out for the future. With performance cars being sliced from G.M. product lines, and G.M. generally in a bad place I wonder what vehicles I will be looking into when it comes time for a new car purchase. 
As a 20 year old, I will likely be looking into a new car when I graduate college, but what company will be around to sell me one? 
The post a while back about a former Pontiac employee and some backers trying to purchase the Pontiac brand seemed like a good idea. A new company could bring a fan base of "car guys" together, and ideally have more solid customer service base being that it is a small company to start.


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## Skrub (Jan 10, 2009)

Tim.Rout said:


> I think GM made a real bad move here.


Indeed. I was looking forward to hearing/seeing a new GTO :willy:


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## deytookerjaabs (May 29, 2009)

I'm not scared of the supposed great hand of Obama over the "free market" GM. Federal constraints are already imposed across the board, VW, Honda, And Toyota deal with the like. This bailout we, the taxpayers, actually get to see where the money goes...dollar for dollar..unlike trillions for elite banks, pentagon, and other mega-subsidies. If they had a real initiative they'd cut all management in half (which would still be more management than the foreign competitors) and focus on the stakeholders and customers..not the shareholders (them). They've got amazing engineers and enough ideas to get by....But..Unlike what I've read from most other folks I'm more scared of the type of tools that climb their way to the top of Management within GM who, like the politicians, grow more out of touch with every promotion they get. Seriously, doesn't any one else see what goes on inside the walls of the average American fortune 500? The bigger the tool, the bigger the climb. Whatever type of vehicles come out of this I hope it's not just more government subsidies for outsourcing jobs in order to gain profits.....better known as the past 30 years...beginning with that former actor..for the "free market."


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

I think the real problem here was GM's pension obligations. The men who designed and built the great cars of the 50's & 60's era were also the ones responsible for their ponzi-scheme retirement plans. It would have looked bad, but I think GM's best option would have been to go the route of Pabst beer... tell the pensioners to get effed and move on with life... not like that's an option now.


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