# Stick with M-21 or go with Tremec 5 speed?



## Mike Honcho (10 mo ago)

Done with the engine and now addressing things from from underneath. Adding frame connectors and addressing some other items. It needs a clutch (shudders) and the tranny is sometimes hard into 1st, reverse grinds more often than not, and sometimes pops out of 3rd cruising slow. Shifter is new Hurst. Getting to the point my mechanic is recommending a new 5 speed. Need a clutch anyway and that's part of the cost. So money already to be spent regardless. Says I get better gear ratio's, better shifting, and a 5h gear for highway cruising. 

Advice on this as well as what the M-21 is worth to bring a few Pontiac bucks back would be appreciated.


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## Mike Honcho (10 mo ago)

Forgot to add car is not original. Block is 73. Heads are 69. Oh, and some other stuff 😄😄


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Let's see should I stab myself in the leg with a screwdriver or not....which would be better for me, I think the 5 spd. Plus they cost around 2800.00 and you could probably get 500.00 for yours, I got 750.00 for my old never been rebuilt M20. Watch for the money off deals at Summit and Jugs 😉


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Mike Honcho said:


> Forgot to add car is not original. Block is 73. Heads are 69. Oh, and some other stuff 😄😄


It can be a personal choice - if you like a 4-speed or like a 5-speed with overdrive. The TKO is not inexpensive and may require the driveshaft tunnel to be cut and modified, but the newer TKX is said to be a much better fit and requires no tunnel mods. You will need to alter the driveshaft or purchase a new one. The OD gear can be a big benefit for highway driving, but you want to have a rear gear to match the OD gear so the engine is in a good RPM range at around 70 MPH and not lugging, not revving too high. The biggest hurdle is price.

*Army* posted, "A quality Muncie rebuild is going to cost over $2500". I have to call him out on that one - a new build Muncie is about $2,500 which has all the upgrades. Here is a place that rebuilds them, $450.00 for labor plus needed parts, so if nothing major is needed, my guess is under $1,000 tops. The 5-speed all said and done may run $3,000 - $3,500 ish.






Muncie 4 Speed Remanufacture Service


Labor Charge for the complete remanufacture of your Muncie 4 speed. This cost is the LABOR CHARGE ONLY, all required parts and supplies to restore your unit to factory new condition, are additional. We stock all top-quality brand parts to insure a PERFECT rebuild. We receive and ship units via...



www.riversidegear.com





Here is Jody's - well known for transmission - WOW, they offer an "Inline" shifter for the Muncie - very cool old school stuff that everyone wanted but few could afford. 









Jody's Transmissions LLC


Jody's Transmissions LLC, Рединг (Пенсильвания). Отметки "Нравится": 1 303 · Обсуждают: 5 · Посетили: 34. High Performance Manual Transmissions and Drivelines




www.facebook.com





Read through this post to get an idea of what you are looking to get into.









FAQ - Powetrain: TREMEC TKX - Automatic to Manual Conversion


This is my final write up for the swap. It is NOT ANY CHEAPER to do a Muncie than a Tremec.. in fact, it's more expensive. A quality Muncie rebuild is going to cost over $2500 and you wont have overdrive. So, yes, you can buy a used cheap Muncie, but that's on you if you choose to forgo the...




www.gtoforum.com


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I have Jody's M23Z, by "in line shifter" are you referring to the Long shifter? That's what I was supposed to get and when I asked him if it would fit that the '65 tunnel was pretty tight he said "listen this isn't my first '65 I've done" a few weeks later he said it wouldn't fit...nuff said. Oh and get a signed in blood contract with an official wax seal approved by both of your lawyers if you buy from him because he got convenient amnesia and screwed me out of 125.00 plus he took twice as long to deliver....but I'm not bitter 🤥


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

Never been a big 5 speed fan just too large a jump for fifth. the TKX does have a .option for a .8 over drive seems more like a fifth gear than a 1990s overdrive. The 1990s 6 speed had the same issue with six being a .5 over drive so there was little room for adding peddle in sixth gear at a 100mph cruise.


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## lust4speed (Jul 5, 2019)

Silversport just emailed out a 10% sale that goes until November 28th.

The idea of overdrive is that it works as an overdrive and not a tight 5th gear in a close ratio gearbox. You've been playing with the gears all around town and marked your territory up the onramp and have successfully and rather harshly merged into traffic. Then you reach over and grab the last gear and revs fall from the high 3's to the mid 2's. Time to relax, turn up the tunes, and actually carry on a conversation inside the beast.

My Tremec low is 2.87 and my 5th gear is .68 which is lower than a Muncie wide ratio first and much higher than the Muncie 1:1 high. I've got 3.73's in the rearend and the effective axle ratio in overdrive is 2.54. My 200-4R equipped GTO that I sold had a 3.55 rear end and the auto 2.64 overdrive produced a 2.27 overdrive - so the Tremec doesn't seem all that high to me. Also the 3.73 and Tremec is constantly getting over 2 MPG more on the highway than the old 3.36 and Muncie did on it's very best day -- and I'm cruising at a higher speed because the car is much quieter.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

First of all, as for your grinding and popping out of gear, any Muncie or Hurst shifter that hasnt been zero/ neutraled, will do exactly that, so before you do anything, you may wish to verify your shifter calibration.

With regard to pricing, as Jim pointed out... when I was looking for a Muncie for my GTO, I used Facebook Marketplace and Craigslist, and over the course of the last 3 years, every single one I found was selling for more than $1000. Plus, they often had the wrong cable orientation and then they always looked to be in disrepair!

The market in New Jersey is "Hey it's a Muncie, it sells itself". But my philosophy was that "Hey, it's a dinosaur and I can get something ten times better for another $500".

If you already have a good core that can be rebuilt, then yes, you're in a completely different situation than I was. However, keep in mind that although the Muncie was glorious in its time, so was the rotary phone.

In closing, you can dump money into a Muncie all day long... and you can put a Z06 crate engine in a Chevette, too. IMO, both would be trying to turn something into something that it was never meant to be.

Mind you, I LOVE MUNCIES!!!! And if my car was original, I'd never let it go. But man, the TKX is just a game changer. I've put several hundred miles a day on my 67, and it's a dream to cruise in, and fun as Hell to drive.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

67ventwindow said:


> Never been a big 5 speed fan just too large a jump for fifth. the TKX does have a .option for a .8 over drive seems more like a fifth gear than a 1990s overdrive. The 1990s 6 speed had the same issue with six being a .5 over drive so there was little room for adding peddle in sixth gear at a 100mph cruise.


I haave to say, I get into 5th gear very fast with my 3.36's, and although I don't, I can do roll on blasts in 5th... they're not gut wrenching, but they're spirited!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

lust4speed said:


> Silversport just emailed out a 10% sale that goes until November 28th.
> 
> The idea of overdrive is that it works as an overdrive and not a tight 5th gear in a close ratio gearbox. You've been playing with the gears all around town and marked your territory up the onramp and have successfully and rather harshly merged into traffic. Then you reach over and grab the last gear and revs fall from the high 3's to the mid 2's. Time to relax, turn up the tunes, and actually carry on a conversation inside the beast.
> 
> My Tremec low is 2.87 and my 5th gear is .68 which is lower than a Muncie wide ratio first and much higher than the Muncie 1:1 high. I've got 3.73's in the rearend and the effective axle ratio in overdrive is 2.54. My 200-4R equipped GTO that I sold had a 3.55 rear end and the auto 2.64 overdrive produced a 2.27 overdrive - so the Tremec doesn't seem all that high to me. Also the 3.73 and Tremec is constantly getting over 2 MPG more on the highway than the old 3.36 and Muncie did on it's very best day -- and I'm cruising at a higher speed because the car is much quieter.


So I'm glad you have this info as I have to replace my diff and I assumed I would go with a 3.54 which would only increase my rpms 137 @ 60mph from my 3.42 to 2548, but a 3.73 would increase it 223 rpms @ 60mph to 2685rps aith my 28" tires which I will most likey keep. So is that 3.73 to much on the street or make 1st gear worthless since I have a 2.99 first gear? I don't travel long distances and there is a possibility of a 5 spd down the road some day but not soon unless I blow that up at the track next time.


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## lust4speed (Jul 5, 2019)

I have the 2.87 low gear in my Tremec and 3.73's. When I'm stuck in bumper to bumper traffic coming home from a show on a Saturday afternoon on the freeway the lower first gear is appreciated. In thick stop and go traffic you can't have too low of gear. Considering your 2.99 first gear, I'd probably opt for the 3.54's that would give you 10.58 total reduction compared to my 10.70 total reduction. Pretty close and we are both running 28" tall tires. My friend that did the same trans and diff same time I did just pulled out his 3.73's and we dropped in 4.10's. He's totally caught the drag racing bug and will sacrifice street manners for the next 10th at the strip. Now that's getting some pretty good reduction in first gear and comes in at 11.77 but he likes it for drag racing. There hasn't been enough time spent on the street to see how he likes that. The crazy thing is his overdrive ratio with the new gearset is equal to a 2.79 rearend so car is still freeway friendly even with 4.10's.


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## Mike Honcho (10 mo ago)

I have some time to think about this. Car is going back to mechanic in Cape Cod in March. Have to make my decision in early February to order parts. Going to be doing a clutch anyway so that's part of the equation. Also adding frame connectors (welded), chasing down steering box leak, and critiquing/fixing any and all underneath the car. 

As for the 5th gear I could use it but don't need it for where and how I drive the car. I'll just think about it all as I cruise around over the next few months. Use this as evaluation period to make best decision when the time comes. Thanks for the input.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I suspect that my satisfaction with the 3.36's is due to the 3.27 1st gear of my Tremec... and 26" tall tires. It already acts like a dump truck in first, which is SUPER FUN! Some day I might throw some 3.55s in, but Im sure the rear wouldnt be happy with that combo.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

lust4speed said:


> I have the 2.87 low gear in my Tremec and 3.73's. When I'm stuck in bumper to bumper traffic coming home from a show on a Saturday afternoon on the freeway the lower first gear is appreciated. In thick stop and go traffic you can't have too low of gear. Considering your 2.99 first gear, I'd probably opt for the 3.54's that would give you 10.58 total reduction compared to my 10.70 total reduction. Pretty close and we are both running 28" tall tires. My friend that did the same trans and diff same time I did just pulled out his 3.73's and we dropped in 4.10's. He's totally caught the drag racing bug and will sacrifice street manners for the next 10th at the strip. Now that's getting some pretty good reduction in first gear and comes in at 11.77 but he likes it for drag racing. There hasn't been enough time spent on the street to see how he likes that. The crazy thing is his overdrive ratio with the new gearset is equal to a 2.79 rearend so car is still freeway friendly even with 4.10's.


Ok, and I might race it only once more so I have to build this for the street but I thought maybe it would be a little more fun with a 3.73, but I also don't want it to be annoying where I have to shift into second going down the driveway. If I had the TKX already I would probably do the 3.73 but I don't want to be forced into it, I was thinking the 3.54 isn't going to be much difference than the 3.42 so why not do a 3.73 because I don't want to go changing rear gears again.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

....if this helps my trans is geared.. 2:984 1st, 2:043 2nd, 1.468 3rd dyno pull shows max torque of 527.5 @ 3200 rpms before I changed out the intake, carb and 1.65 rockers I have the shift light set 5700 rpms but it's still pulling.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

To the OP--if you have an M21 the car likely has a 3.90 rear gear. M21's were only used with 3.90 and 4.33 rear gears due to the lazy first gear ratio of the trans. Your need for a 5 speed could be dictated by what gear you have out back and how you use the car. From what I've seen, a complete 5 speed conversion is about 4k to 5k. Not 2500.oo. You could have your Muncie rebuilt for under $1000 and be in business, but it would still wind out on the highway with your gears, if 3.90 or up. I personally prefer the Hurst shifted 4 speeds, as they have the 'feel' of the original car. I like the way they shift better. The 5 speed, on a car driven a lot at speed, is a game changer, though. A huge upgrade for a car that sees a lot of use.


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## Mike Honcho (10 mo ago)

Now reaching out for some info on the Muncie. I would rather keep it than swap out. So today I took a nice 15 mile trip through town just to "test drive" it. Before I post my observations my goal is to figure out what is wrong (fixable), what is nature of the beast (possibly fixable), and what is inherently flawed simply just because that is what it was back in the day (need to live with it stuff).
Reverse- More often than not grinds going into gear (very annoying)
1st- Sometimes hard to push into gear, no grinding. Sometimes I think it's in 1st but its not. Go to take off and I'm the idiot at the light going nowhere. (extremely annoying)
2nd- Other than needing a good tug to engage, no real issues
3rd- Goes right into gear...or does it. Sometimes pops out of gear. (not often but it does happen). Only gear to occasionally grind during normal upshifts. Grind is minor but noticeable.
4th- Flawless. Once in 4th all it wants is more throttle.

So being what it is, a fantastic relic from back in the day, can it be fixed up to be a joy to row through the gears? Or is it as Army posted just a rotary phone type thing. About as good as it's gonna get. If that is the case I will move forward and go with a new 5 speed. But if many of my gripes are fixable I would rather do that. Why? Just because. Have Hooker headers just because. Sure Have heard some others are better but damn!! Check out my hooker headers!!


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## Mike Honcho (10 mo ago)

And why the hell hasn't anyone called me out for my user name yet?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

geeteeohguy said:


> To the OP--if you have an M21 the car likely has a 3.90 rear gear. M21's were only used with 3.90 and 4.33 rear gears due to the lazy first gear ratio of the trans. Your need for a 5 speed could be dictated by what gear you have out back and how you use the car. From what I've seen, a complete 5 speed conversion is about 4k to 5k. Not 2500.oo. You could have your Muncie rebuilt for under $1000 and be in business, but it would still wind out on the highway with your gears, if 3.90 or up. I personally prefer the Hurst shifted 4 speeds, as they have the 'feel' of the original car. I like the way they shift better. The 5 speed, on a car driven a lot at speed, is a game changer, though. A huge upgrade for a car that sees a lot of use.


I don't think anyone said 2500.00, they are 2750.00 plus tax maybe shipping...and 4-5 K ? That seems high unless you're talking a nice clutch and cross member, you have to shorten the shaft for a few hundred and a yoke.. I don't think that's going to be 1-2K but I haven't priced it out in detail...this is assuming no labor of course, I was thinking the OP could do that maybe not.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Mike Honcho said:


> And why the hell hasn't anyone called me out for my user name yet?


Idk, I've heard of Mike Hunt 🤣


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## Mike Honcho (10 mo ago)

I am not rich but older so have the bucks. Price while important is not really a consideration. More about getting the car right as a driver. Sweet ride but in no way original. Which is freedom to do whatever is best for me.


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## Mike Honcho (10 mo ago)

Baaad65 said:


> Idk, I've heard of Mike Hunt 🤣


Ain't nobody watched Talladega nights?😂


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## dadspackard31 (Dec 2, 2019)

Um are you full of s$%t  😁


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Mike Honcho said:


> Ain't nobody watched Talladega nights?😂


Not for a while but love it...shake n bake 😎


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## Mike Honcho (10 mo ago)

Cal Naughton JR's alter persona.


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## gtojoe68 (Jan 4, 2019)

My original Muncie M-20 casing got destroyed after blowing up two input shaft bearings and had to be discarded years ago. I went with an AutoGear Equipment Muncie 4 speed. Brand new it was $1650. but alas that was 15 yrs ago. I geared it 1st - 2.20 / 2nd - 1.60 / 3rd - 1.0 / 4th 0.8 If i could do it again, not sure I would do that. the throw to third is wicked long unless you wind the crap outta 2nd. Which is always a great pleasure but not always appropriate. The idea was to have super tall rear end gears ( I have 3.90 Yukon Gear set) and then make 4th a ghetto OD. As it is a numbers car, I hate to do the Tremec swap someday but would love to be able to cruise at lower RPM. I get about 2800 RPM at 70MPH. Speedo gear is wrong and set for original 3.50 so the MPH is suspect. Anyway - cruising on the interstate with a vert is rubbish in the city . Do with that info what you will. Auto Gear out of Syracuse NY was great to work with.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Are you able to adjust the clutch some to see if some of your woes go away? Center your linkage as Army brought up. Seems like a lot of issues for one muncie.


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## Mike Honcho (10 mo ago)

Well the shop here in FL that overall I was happy with considering the point they got me to is well... a bit lacking. So simply said there could be issues with going through the tranny and/or the new shifter install. Trying to figure out based on Muncie symptoms are the fixes or adjustments available or not.


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## Noangelbuddy (Dec 6, 2017)

Have you considered the Tremec 6 speed? While you are upgrading, this would be the time to research a hydraulic clutch; if you have not considered it already.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

I don't know how to add links on my new phone yet, but if you put your Trans in neutral, you should be able to run a Allen wrench or some type of pin (must be closo to the same diameter as the hole) thru a center hole on the shifter body. Adjust the linkages as necessary u til the pin slides through . You can look up muncie clutch adjustment...pretty easy as well. Then go from there.


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## MidnightAuto (May 28, 2018)

Replaced an m20 with a tkx. Best upgrade to car ever. Completely changes hwy driving experience for the better. 3.36 gear but will swap out for 3.73 at some point


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Mike Honcho said:


> Reverse- More often than not grinds going into gear (very annoying)
> 1st- Sometimes hard to push into gear, no grinding. Sometimes I think it's in 1st but its not. Go to take off and I'm the idiot at the light going nowhere. (extremely annoying)
> 2nd- Other than needing a good tug to engage, no real issues
> 3rd- Goes right into gear...or does it. Sometimes pops out of gear. (not often but it does happen). Only gear to occasionally grind during normal upshifts. Grind is minor but noticeable.
> 4th- Flawless. Once in 4th all it wants is more throttle.


I already mentioned this, but no one else seemed to reinforce it, so... This is first-day Muncie stuff.

If your shifter is not zeroed, do not expect your trans to work.

"as for your grinding and popping out of gear, any Muncie or Hurst shifter that hasnt been zero/ neutraled, will do exactly that, so before you do anything, you may wish to verify your shifter calibration"


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

RMTZ67 said:


> Are you able to adjust the clutch some to see if some of your woes go away? Center your linkage as Army brought up. Seems like a lot of issues for one muncie.


YES!!!!! Every single Muncie diagnosis should begin with a shifter linkage zero.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

MidnightAuto said:


> Replaced an m20 with a tkx. Best upgrade to car ever. Completely changes hwy driving experience for the better. 3.36 gear but will swap out for 3.73 at some point


Did you get the 3.27 1st gear? That's what I have with the 3.36 and it's almost too low.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I had problems with my new Comp plus getting stuck 2nd to 3rd and had adjusted it on the bench and in the car a couple of times so this spring I checked it again and had to make one turn on a lever, didn't get stuck once this summer even racing it which I was afraid of...things move, get worn in, whatever so zero out the shifter again with the levers off then install them always making sure that pin is nice and free in the hole. There you go army a softball ready to go yard on 😉


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## Noangelbuddy (Dec 6, 2017)

Noangelbuddy said:


> Have you considered the Tremec 6 speed? While you are upgrading, this would be the time to research a hydraulic clutch; if you have not considered it already.


Just saw a blog by Tremec about choosing between their TKO 5 speed or the Magnum 6 speed. Read this for an objective comparison by Tremec.









Should I Upgrade to a TREMEC TKO 5-Speed or Magnum 6-Speed? | TREMEC Blog: Get Connected


If you’re thinking about upgrading your muscle car or hot rod to an overdrive manual transmission, one of the key questions you’re probably pondering is, “Should I choose the TREMEC TKO 5-speed or TREMEC Magnum 6-speed?”




Tremec-blog.com


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Noangelbuddy said:


> Just saw a blog by Tremec about choosing between their TKO 5 speed or the Magnum 6 speed. Read this for an objective comparison by Tremec.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, it's a bit dated, now that the TKX is out, but still good reading! I'd love to have a 6 speed, because I'd love to have 3.73's, but right now, Im very content as is. My car has the power to have FUN and the balls to back up its reputation, but not the overkill power to crack frames, blow rears, and destroy everything else between the bumpers.


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## Jim K (Nov 17, 2020)

Mike Honcho said:


> Now reaching out for some info on the Muncie. I would rather keep it than swap out. So today I took a nice 15 mile trip through town just to "test drive" it. Before I post my observations my goal is to figure out what is wrong (fixable), what is nature of the beast (possibly fixable), and what is inherently flawed simply just because that is what it was back in the day (need to live with it stuff).
> Reverse- More often than not grinds going into gear (very annoying)
> 1st- Sometimes hard to push into gear, no grinding. Sometimes I think it's in 1st but its not. Go to take off and I'm the idiot at the light going nowhere. (extremely annoying)
> 2nd- Other than needing a good tug to engage, no real issues
> ...


The fact that you stated it's hard to get into gears and it grinds a bit going into reverse seems to point to the clutch not fully disengaging the trans when you shift. Being hard to push into gear is really working that synchro to an early grave.. Slippage out of a gear can mean a couple of different things.. Linkage is not adjusted quite right and it's not fully engaging or the gear itself is worn and in need of replacement. I had my Muncie built by Midwest Muncie and I have none of these issues.. The 5 speed swap is a personal choice thing. If you're going to be on the highway a lot with the car and the rear is numerically high then yeah a 5 speed swap may benefit. If you're mainly driving around town without any long road trips, the the 5 speed swap (to my thought) is a waste of time and money and just another damn gear you have to manage.


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## Mike Honcho (10 mo ago)

Anyone know somebody in FL that can do the zeroing of my shifter? Worth a shot.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Mike Honcho said:


> Anyone know somebody in FL that can do the zeroing of my shifter? Worth a shot.


It's pretty simple, try looking up a YouTube video. Less stress than finding a shop to do a simple task. Same with clutch adjustment. Pretty simple. Almost no tools needed. Maybe somebody can link you a few videos.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Agree that a shifter zero is mandatory, and a check on the clutch adjustment. Sounds like both are suspect here. Both take a few minutes to accomplish and almost no tools. I use a 1/4 inch allen key for the shifter gauge, but a 1/4 drill bit or even a nail will work. I always disconnect the rods from the ears on the trans when doing it, and then move each ear fully into gear and adjust the rod accordingly, one at a time. That way, the shifter is zeroed and the rods are adjusted so that the transmission goes fully into each gear.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> Unfortunately, it's a bit dated, now that the TKX is out, but still good reading! I'd love to have a 6 speed, because I'd love to have 3.73's, but right now, Im very content as is. My car has the power to have FUN and the balls to back up its reputation, but not the overkill power to crack frames, blow rears, and destroy everything else between the bumpers.


Here is a current look at a basic comparison of the Magnum 6-speed, TKO-600, and TKX-600.

*Tremec Magnum* Close Ratio 6-speed 700Ft Lbs TQ - *$3,295.00*
Multiple-cone synchronizers makes it capable of engines speeds of 7,800 RPMs 

*TKO-600 *5-Speed 600Ft lbs TQ - *$2,595.00*
The TKO has single-cone brass synchronizers makes it capable of shifts at 6,200 RPMs. The cones can be retrofitted with bronze and carbon to increase high RPM shifts.

*TREMEC TKX-600 * 5-Speed 600Ft Lbs TQ-* $2,795.00 * NOTE: Upgrade & Replacement for the TKO-600)
Multi-cone synchronizers and hybrid synchronizer rings made of sintered bronze and carbon makes it capable of engines speeds of 8,000 RPMs with shifts at 7,500 RPMs.

*Magnum *- 1st 2.66, 2nd 1.78, 3rd 1.30, 4th 1:00, 5th .80 OD, 6th .63 OD
*TKO* - 1st. 2.87, 2nd 1.89, 3rd 1.28, 4th 1:00, 5th .64 OD 
*TKX* - 1st. 2.87, 2nd 1.89, 3rd 1.28, 4th 1.00, 5th .68OD

Input Shaft – 26 Spline
Output Shaft – 31 Spline 

Prices do not include truck freight shipping.

If you have a budget, these are all a bit pricey and this is just for the transmission. But, needs to be considered is the engine power/torque. If keeping things stock or a little hotter than stock, you really don't need the above. If 80-90% of your driving is around town, then you don't need the above. As you build the engine bigger, then it is "safer" to select one of the above to keep the stock trans from breaking. But if you can break the stock transmission, then the next thing to break will be the 10-bolt UNLESS you keep a non-posi and skinny tires so only 1 tire breaks loose and spins when you put all of the bigger HP/TQ through it. But who wants that? So adding the typical posi and better grippy tires means a stronger non-factory rear end - and then you want to do suspension upgrades to plant the power to the ground, so more $$$.

So at best, along with the cost of the engine that now yields much more HP/TQ than factory, you have to add to that cost the price of a transmission and its installation to handle the bigger HP/TQ, and a rear end to handle the bigger HP/TQ. So a realistic budget for an engine/drivetrain would most likely be around the 12K-15K figure. Think of the savings if you simply kept the engine stock along with the stock drivetrain.

So ALL upgrades have to be viewed based on your budget - to include the car refurb/rebuilding itself. If you have budget unlimited, then go for it, but know that it won't be inexpensive and you could have more invested in the car than you can get out of it should you decide to sell.

Just my opinion.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Mike Honcho said:


> Anyone know somebody in FL that can do the zeroing of my shifter? Worth a shot.


Look at the last post, right bottom corner photo - you will see the "gage pin" and shift alignment hole - very simple to do, shifter in neutral, linkage at the trans disconnected.









1966 4 speed manual won't shift into 3-4


I have a 1966 4 speed manual "W" code manual that won't go into 3 or 4. R-1-2 are fine. My google search went unanswered. Any ideas? Never worked on a manual transmission before. Thanks!




www.gtoforum.com






There may also be bushings on the shifter/rods which wear out and these can be replaced - they can be rubber, nylon, brass, or steel replacements. Get the ones for your car/shifter. Here is an example below.



https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/hurst/hurst-manual-transmission-shifter-bushing/hur0/3327302



After aligning the shifter with the pin, adjust the shifter rods to the transmission which will be in neutral. You may have to lengthen or shorten them is they just don't slip right on. Rods out of adjustment can cause shift issues.

Get this done and see if that changes things. Then as mentioned, a clutch that is not releasing fully will cause gears to scrape, grinding shifts, or difficulty putting the trans in gear. Check clutch linkages for slop and wear.


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## Mike Honcho (10 mo ago)

HaHa!! I'm in over my head. Good problems to have. Older so I can fund this. Just put right gears (3.36) and Posi in my rear end. I'll fix and upgrade if it breaks. As for the "zeroing of the shifter" while I am handy I need someone in the "know" to do this for me. I am still learning to do more to service the Detroit diesels in my boat. Wow, those guys are expensive but a rare breed and worth it. That's where my mechanical effort is right now. I cannot tune a carb. Even on simple MX bikes I have been riding since I was 16. I cannot split cases on the bikes either. Pay someone who knows what they are doing. Appreciate the info on how simple "zeroing" is to do but really, I'd rather load it on the trailer and take it across the state if that's what I need to do.

So if anybody has someone to recommend I would appreciate it. I need to make this decision before pulling the car back up north. If I don't get the Muncie figured out in time I will go with the TRX. It's all good. Love having a non original car so I can do what I want.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Mike Honcho said:


> HaHa!! I'm in over my head. Good problems to have. Older so I can fund this. Just put right gears (3.36) and Posi in my rear end. I'll fix and upgrade if it breaks. As for the "zeroing of the shifter" while I am handy I need someone in the "know" to do this for me. I am still learning to do more to service the Detroit diesels in my boat. Wow, those guys are expensive but a rare breed and worth it. That's where my mechanical effort is right now. I cannot tune a carb. Even on simple MX bikes I have been riding since I was 16. I cannot split cases on the bikes either. Pay someone who knows what they are doing. Appreciate the info on how simple "zeroing" is to do but really, I'd rather load it on the trailer and take it across the state if that's what I need to do.
> 
> So if anybody has someone to recommend I would appreciate it. I need to make this decision before pulling the car back up north. If I don't get the Muncie figured out in time I will go with the TRX. It's all good. Love having a non original car so I can do what I want.


I am sure Army will be willing to fly out to help, for a small fortune.


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## Mike Honcho (10 mo ago)

Is Army in snow country? If so in 2 months he'll fly in at his own expense!

Seriously there has to be a shop down here.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Mike Honcho said:


> Is Army in snow country? If so in 2 months he'll fly in at his own expense!
> 
> Seriously there has to be a shop down here.


Old schooler shops are hard to find. While everyone's talking 4,5,6 speeds. I am at 3 manual w/3:55 rear lol, in reality, nothing mild about it. But for my in town driving. I haven't felt the need for more gears.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Here is a current look at a basic comparison of the Magnum 6-speed, TKO-600, and TKX-600.
> 
> *Tremec Magnum* Close Ratio 6-speed 700Ft Lbs TQ - *$3,295.00*
> Multiple-cone synchronizers makes it capable of engines speeds of 7,800 RPMs
> ...


For sure, guys who ALREADY have 4 speed cars and a Muncie, can certainly get out MUCH cheaper than a Tremec.

The line between the two only becomes thinner, when they're starting out with an automatic car and no trans.

Last night I jumped on the freeway, after work, and did an 80 mph cruise for about 40 miles. Even with 3.36's, when I had the TH400, my car was SCREAMING at 80mph... but with the TKX, I was cruising along like Miss Daisy, at 2400 rpms... and surprisingly, when you nail it, the engine still has enough grunt to take off in 5th gear, and quickly leave all of the traffic in your rear view.

Of course, the real fun is downshifting into 3rd and making the jump to hyperspace


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Mike Honcho said:


> Just put right gears (3.36) and Posi in my rear end.


Eggsellent choice!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Mike Honcho said:


> As for the "zeroing of the shifter" while I am handy I need someone in the "know" to do this for me


As simple a job as it is, it makes a HUGE difference! I've been dead on the side of the road, four times in life because a shifter wasnt zero'd!

I do have two mechanics in Florida, but I don't know geography there well. If you're on Facebook I can connect you with them.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

RMTZ67 said:


> I am sure Army will be willing to fly out to help, for a small fortune.


First of all, you know I would go anywhere to help any of you guys.

Second of all... Im offended. You know I always work for hookers and cocaines. There's no need to pay me a fortune... You know what... it's the holidays, dont even worry about the cocaines, just get the hookers.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Mike Honcho said:


> Is Army in snow country? If so in 2 months he'll fly in at his own expense!
> 
> Seriously there has to be a shop down here.


Im in Jersey. You're welcome to trailer the car here for a complimentary shifter alignment... or I have 10 days off for Christmas... and 5th gear.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

armyadarkness said:


> First of all, you know I would go anywhere to help any of you guys.
> 
> Second of all... Im offended. You know I always work for hookers and cocaines. There's no need to pay me a fortune... You know what... it's the holidays, dont even worry about the cocaines, just get the hookers.


Ya, my bad...I should know better by now.


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## Noangelbuddy (Dec 6, 2017)

armyadarkness said:


> Unfortunately, it's a bit dated, now that the TKX is out, but still good reading! I'd love to have a 6 speed, because I'd love to have 3.73's, but right now, Im very content as is. My car has the power to have FUN and the balls to back up its reputation, but not the overkill power to crack frames, blow rears, and destroy everything else between the bumpers.


Army,
The TKX was not available when I chose the Magnum. I wish it was, I would not have had to modify my tunnel according to Tremec. Not being an experienced welder at the time, made it a challenge. The magnum was HUGE compared to the original 4 speed M20 (or M21? I forget which, sold it on CL 5 years ago.) I went with the wide ratio magnum 6 speed, 26 spline coupled it to a Spohn Performance Dana 60 with 3.73 gears. Have it all together and running, but not on the road. Hoping I made good choices. Performance will tell after I break in the drivetrain.


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## Mike Honcho (10 mo ago)

Army, send me the FL contacts. I work all over the country so all of FL is "local" to me. The car has never been in Jersey since I run 81 when I pull a trailer. Thanks for the offer.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

This is literally a 10 or 15 minute job to do. Watch a youtube video if you have to. You disconnect the three rods from the shifter arms, loosen the bolts that hold the shifter to the trans, and move the arms on the shifter so that the tool slides all the way in. You then leave it in, tighten the shifter to the trans, pull the pins, and re-install the rods. The rods adjust so they slip into the holes on the shifter and trans with no effort. This is as easy as an oil change.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Mike Honcho said:


> Army, send me the FL contacts. I work all over the country so all of FL is "local" to me. The car has never been in Jersey since I run 81 when I pull a trailer. Thanks for the offer.


Like I said, are you on facebook? Message me, if so.


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## Mike Honcho (10 mo ago)

I have been doing some more driving to honestly evaluate everything I am experiencing and why. I also made a few adjustments to how I drive. Below is copy/paste from my post #17 with new added comments.

Reverse- More often than not grinds going into gear (very annoying)
Turns out it's more like it grinds sometimes, just so annoying it seams like more often. 

1st- Sometimes hard to push into gear, no grinding. Sometimes I think it's in 1st but its not. Go to take off and I'm the idiot at the light going nowhere. (extremely annoying)
Payed close attention to when it does this. Yes it has for some reason a harder detent going into gear but the real issue is my little T-Rex arms. Right where it needs to be fully into gear my arm is fully extended. Moved the seat up one position and problem solved.

2nd- Other than needing a good tug to engage, no real issues
All still good

3rd- Goes right into gear...or does it. Sometimes pops out of gear. (not often but it does happen). Only gear to occasionally grind during normal upshifts. Grind is minor but noticeable.
Same problem as 1st gear. Tiny T-Rex arms! solved by moving seat up.

4th- Flawless. Once in 4th all it wants is more throttle. 

Another thing is I tried driving not more aggressively but just with a little more authority. The whole combo works better getting used as per the build. Loafing around at lower RPM's even though it's got the 400 grunt produces many little noticeable nuances that all go away as I get on it a bit more.

So the M-21 is a keeper. Will open it up to verify synchro's and all else are right before putting back in after clutch job. My guy in MA will have my blessing to go through, critique, and improve anything needed once the car is in the air.
Time to finish the job.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

How about adjusting the shifter properly first? 10 minute job, and a good shot of it fixing your issues for zero cost.


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## Mike Honcho (10 mo ago)

It's okay to drive around locally now. When I bring it back up north for the work my guy will go through everything. I can't even get an alignment here in FL. Today I went to a shop recommended by a place full of classic cars that they use. Had an appointment for 9AM. Figured I'd sit around for a couple hours. Guy tells me leave it for the day and they would "try" to squeeze it in. ???

Get what you are saying but I have enough on my plate and have total trust in the shop on Cape Cod. He has a shop to send car to for the alignment. Since I'm not spending $ on a tranny I'll finally do new tires. Every time it rolls out of his shop its a much better car. And moving the seat up one position made it much better too.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Mike Honcho said:


> I have been doing some more driving to honestly evaluate everything I am experiencing and why. I also made a few adjustments to how I drive. Below is copy/paste from my post #17 with new added comments.
> 
> Reverse- More often than not grinds going into gear (very annoying)
> Turns out it's more like it grinds sometimes, just so annoying it seams like more often.
> ...


My Autogear/Muncie is sometimes hard to get into first so I let the clutch out slightly, and yes I've been that idiot at the stop light too a couple of times.


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## Mike Honcho (10 mo ago)

That is exactly what I do for first. Common Muncie trait? If it's normal one less thing to fix.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

..oh never mind, I have Dearborn.


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## tallrandyb (Jun 12, 2021)

67ventwindow said:


> Never been a big 5 speed fan just too large a jump for fifth. the TKX does have a .option for a .8 over drive seems more like a fifth gear than a 1990s overdrive. The 1990s 6 speed had the same issue with six being a .5 over drive so there was little room for adding peddle in sixth gear at a 100mph cruise.


yep, love my 94 Formula 0.50 6th gear but I’m rolling with 4.11’s!


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

tallrandyb said:


> yep, love my 94 Formula 0.50 6th gear but I’m rolling with 4.11’s!


My Brother and I bought new TA and Camaro in 95 both LT1 6spd.We both came home on leave from the military. My camaro sat the whole time we drove the TA exclusively and never said a thing about it.Side by side you knew the better car. Though I loved the performance I only had the car two years. Not a car you looked out your front door and smile about.


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## tallrandyb (Jun 12, 2021)

67ventwindow said:


> My Brother and I bought new TA and Camaro in 95 both LT1 6spd.We both came home on leave from the military. My camaro sat the whole time we drove the TA exclusively and never said a thing about it.Side by side you knew the better car. Though I loved the performance I only had the car two years. Not a car you looked out your front door and smile about.


I’m original owner of my 94 Formula, ordered it in spring of 94. Actually originally ordered a Trans Am, but by the time it got in the system they stopped taking new orders because they were having production problems with the rear wing. So he asked if I wanted to change to a Formula or wait for a 95. It’s always been a sleeper compared to the TA and the Camaro SS; Mustang guys would often pick me for a race from a lineup of our F-bodies, often missing the Mickey Thompson’s mounted on the stock swirlies and of course I wouldn’t open the hood.

Got an article in Hot Rod and their title was “Looks like nothing, does everything!”. Fun stuff.


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