# Finally heard back from the machinst



## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Well I finally contacted the machine shop regarding the cleaning and magafluxing of my engine.

I am disappointed because I waited a month and a half to hear from him and it turns out it was already done. Why didn’t he call me when he was finished? He told me it cleaned up fine and checked out good with no cracks. He did mention that the cylinder walls can’t be cleared with just a .030 bore, which means I will have to bore the cylinders .060 and use a standard size 400 (4.12 bore) forged, dished piston.

He then asked me what I wanted to do. 

I mentioned I was looking for a primarily stock, street engine that looks correct on the outside with the necessary changes to enable it to operate on 91 octane BP gas. 

Then he stressed I can’t bring any parts. I will have to buy his parts. I really don’t have anything other than a new set of cam bearings and some slightly used Crane rocker arms, valve springs, and screw-in rocker arm studs/poly lock nuts. I asked what his markup was on parts and he just said, “it’s fair.” I know he uses Diamond pistons and he wants to use Eagle rods. He also pushed for a roller cam when I had dropped the engine off a month and a half ago. 

I told him I was going to send him an e-mail detailing what I am looking for and how this engine will be used. I have no idea what his shop rate is. I guess once I let him know what my goals are for this engine, he might reply with a parts and labor figure.

I am a little disappointed in that any parts I am interested in using could be shot down. I don’t know what brands he uses. I am interested in using some specific items (for example the BOP one-piece rear main seal) and I will outline that in my e-mail to him.

I want a reliable engine that runs at least as well as it did originally but now using pump gas. I need an engine that doesn’t leak, doesn’t ping, doesn’t overheat, and doesn’t make noises it shouldn’t. I also want to keep all the original, correct ancillary items like the oil pan, push rod cover, timing chain cover, valve covers, intake manifold, AFB carb, and correct ignition. It needs to look OEM on the outside. I’m not trying to wring out the last bit of power out of it.

I will tell him I don’t want, because I don’t need, a roller cam. Especially if he procures it and marks up the price above the already $1,100 they cost in the first place. I don't need to build a $7,000/$8,000 engine to fulfill the need I have for my car.

I will post my e-mail I send him to get your opinion. 

The worst thing that can happen is I will just pay him for services rendered and collect my engine and plan on going elsewhere to have it built.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I don't like the sounds of what you are saying. If it were me, I'd pull the engine, pay him what you owe for his services, and look elsewhere just because he wants you to purchase the replacement parts through him at a "fair" mark-up.

My guess is that he is also protecting himself when some guys either get the wrong/mismatched parts or insist on using cheaper/inexpensive pieces that may not hold up and then he will be blamed for a bad engine and not the cheap/inexpensive parts.

Right now, it will not hurt to hear him out *BUT* it is your damn engine and you have the say so to have him install any brand/type part you want - not him. He may prefer to work with one part/brand over another, but it ultimately is your choice to use the brand/parts you want.

Let him give you a price based on what you are looking for. This will require you to know what you want for your engine. Have him break it down into components, ie heads & shortblock and provide you with an itemized list of parts, machining costs like bore/hone block, check/square block deck, check/align hone mains (if needed), fit/install pistons/rings, cam bearings/install cam bearings, machine/install hardened seats, 3-angle valve job, valves/springs/retainers/seals, mill head pedestals and fit screw-in studs, etc.. The pan, timing cover, distributor, fuel pump, valve covers, flywheel, harmonic balancer, intake & carb are items you supply him or will add-on once you get your engine home - he will not/should not supply any of this.

There is a lot of machine work & labor involved if you have a shop do all your work. It is not cheap, so don't be surprised. If you simply have him bore/fit pistons & balance the rotating assembly, install the cam bearings and freeze plugs, and you install the pistons as well as gap rings and hang the rods (if using full floating pins), and you assemble the shortblock yourself, you can save a lot of money - but you have to know what you are doing and have the tools to do it, ie engine stand, ring filer, ring compressor, dial indicators, etc..

So again, don't like what he has said about you can't supply the parts, but I would also see what he hits you up for a price tag and then make your decision from there. My guess is that the engine may fall between $4,000-$5000 to rebuild/assemble. Here are some numbers just to use as a reference. Never used them, can't endorse them either. : Pontiac Performance Crate Engines


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Yes Jim I agree. I was taken aback over the machinist's parts edict. I can appreciate his wanting to avoid any liability caused from inferior parts, but he was also trying to sell me H.O. exhaust manifolds and an aftermarket timing cover.

Anyway, I am going to post my e-mail about what I'm looking for in an engine build from him. I hope I am not droning too long here:


Hi Chuck,
I am glad that the engine I brought to you cleaned up and the results of magafluxing show no cracks or damage.

I am not surprised that you deemed the cylinder walls can’t be cleared with just a .030 bore, which means I will have to bore the cylinders .060 and use a standard size 400 (4.12xx bore) forged, dished piston. The cylinder walls looked to be in bad condition. I figure you’d need to bore/hone block, check/square block deck, check/align hone mains (if needed), fit/install pistons/rings, cam bearings/install cam bearings, etc.

I mentioned I was looking to build a primarily stock, street engine that looks correct on the outside with the necessary changes to enable it to operate on 91 octane BP gas. This is the numbers-matching engine to my car. If it wasn’t, I wouldn’t have taken on this project.

You mentioned I can’t bring any parts and I will have to buy parts from you. I really don’t have anything other than a new set of Clevite 77 cam bearings and some slightly used Crane rocker arms, valve springs, and screw-in rocker arm studs/poly lock nuts. I also bought some new E-Loy exhaust valves on ebay some years back thinking I’d have hardened valve seats installed in my cylinder heads. But it sounds like we might use stainless steel (Ferrea?) valves instead anyway. If I don’t use these parts for this engine, I won’t ever use them. If they are not right for my application, then I understand, but if they can be used, I’d rather put them to use than toss them in a scrap metal bin. I can understand that you likely want to make sure parts don’t become a culprit of any sort of engine failure.

Some of the parts I am interested in using is the BOP one-piece rear main seal and steel/rubber oil pan gasket. Butler offers these. I am really concerned about oil leaks, particularly the rear main seal and oil pan because it means engine removal to repair these leaks. I also like the thought of using a Melling standard volume (60psi) oil pump. 

I want a reliable engine that runs at least as well as it did originally, but now using pump gas. I need an engine that doesn’t leak, doesn’t ping, doesn’t overheat, burn a bunch of oil, and doesn’t make noises it shouldn’t. I also want to keep all the original, correct ancillary items like the oil pan, push rod cover, timing chain cover, valve covers, intake manifold, AFB carb, and correct ignition right down to the repro date-coded ignition wires. It needs to look OEM on the outside. The alterations will have to be exclusive to the inside of the engine.
I have a duplicate engine currently in my car now, so if I can’t use the timing cover, oil pan, pushrod cover, etc. I can use the ones from the engine in my car. 

A run-down of the car this engine will propel: 1965 Pontiac GTO convertible. It has a 3.23:1 axle ratio, a Muncie 4-speed transmission. I use the correct Carter AFB carburetor on the correct cast iron intake manifold. It uses the correct exhaust manifolds. The engine will use the correct Delco points distributor. I’d like to find somebody who has an old-school distributor machine and re-curve the distributor. The engine I have in the car now has a re-curved distributor. The builder of that engine re-curved it.

Based on what you have told me I am figuring you will bore the cylinders .060 to allow standard size Diamond dished/forged pistons. You mentioned I should not use the stock rods (even with ARP rod bolts) and substitute Eagle forged rods. I don’t know what rings and bearings you use. It’s a given the expansion plugs and oil plugs will be replaced. I assume the crank is good and will be turned .010/.010. What else do you recommend for the crankshaft?

As for the cylinder heads, I don’t know if this is true that if stainless steel valves are used, hardened valve seats are not necessary. I’m sure you have some insight on this topic. Initially I figured on having hardened seats installed and that is why I got those E-Loy valves. I will embrace your judgement on which direction to go. Maybe you will tell me to use both stainless valves and hardened valve seats.

I would like to think you prefer to replace the valve guides opposed to knurling. Are bronze guides the way to go? I assume the heads would receive a three-angle valve job.

My cylinder heads have press-in rocker arm studs. I do have a set of Crane screw-in studs. Some say press-in rocker arm studs can be pinned to keep them from working out. Or would it be best to go ahead and mill head pedestals and use screw-in studs?

I know you advocate using a roller valve train, but I think that is overkill for my application and frankly I think it is too expensive. I’d rather use that money towards machine shop labor. I have some those Crane rocker arms and other upper valve train parts I mentioned. However, I am aware that PWS and Comp Cams sells 1.52 ratio roller-tipped rocker arms for about the same cost as the stamped steel factory type replacements. Again, I don’t know what kind of measurable gains I will realize using roller rocker arms since I am going to run a small carburetor, no headers, no MSD-type ignition, etc. 

The flat tappet camshaft I have in mind is the Pontiac H.O. version that is better known as the 068. Melling makes a quality clone of this cam. Another popular cam used on street Pontiacs is the Summit #2801 cam. It is very comparable to the 068, but with about 10-15 percent more lift. I know Summit doesn’t make any parts, so I assume a company like Melling probably makes it for Summit. I am aware I will need to use motor oil with a high concentration of ZDDP or use the ZDDP additive. It won’t be a problem since I don’t drive the car enough to warrant more than one oil change a year.

I know I will also need some odds and ends. I have some of the other pieces to the engine. I have the cam thrust plate and many of the fasteners. I saw that Butler offers an engine bolt kit and other items like the thrust plate that will likely be a good choice.

I don’t know what you have in mind for gaskets. Do you think a different head gasket thickness will have to be considered to achieve a low enough compression ratio? Do you think the block should be zero-decked? The heads have small combustion chambers and I understand that the published 65cc figure for them could be incorrect. I figure you probably measure the chamber volume before deciding whether to deck the block or use a thicker head gasket.
To risk from droning on too much further, I will leave my engine discussion here. I like the idea of exchanging e-mails because we can refer to e-mails to make sure nothing is overlooked. 

I don’t know much about your shop rate and the brand of parts you use. Maybe you just provide a flat rate estimate, parts and labor lumped together, for all I know. I’m sure you will shed light on all I have inquired and then some.

Thanks Chuck. I look forward to hearing from you.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

That should work and let him know what you are looking to do and want. :thumbsup:


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Thanks for your input Jim. I am well aware that machine shop tabs are steep. If I can build a decent stock engine to operate on pump gas with a cam upgrade for $4,000-ish I will be in good shape.

I will send the message and see how he responds.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I would go for a .040" overbore and a set of dished Ross Pistons. I posted in your other thread. You may want to contact Paul Carter of Koerner Racing Engines (GTOFreek) on the Ames/Performance years forum. He is a stellar Pontiac engine builder/machinist located in AZ, and a go-to guy. Now is the time to do all the research and cover your bases, like you seem to be doing. You do NOT want to spend thousands and have to do it over again, or end up with a lackluster engine. My two cents.............


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

extinctmake said:


> Thanks for your input Jim. I am well aware that machine shop tabs are steep. If I can build a decent stock engine to operate on pump gas with a cam upgrade for $4,000-ish I will be in good shape.
> 
> I will send the message and see how he responds.


I just went through this whole process extinctmake, if you were rebuilding a Chevy you could get away with ~4k but since it's a Pontiac it will be more... I can't stress enough GET IT IN WRITING! This particular guy probably won't but to protect yourself and your pocket book GET IT IN WRITING. Also, as you've already experience communication is not good with a lot of these guys which makes sense as their job is building engines not communications... I hope it all works out for you. Dan


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Geeteeohguy, I still have a printed copy of your post about how you helped a friend build the 389 in his ’65 GTO. I am trying to do that at a slightly lesser scale due to my using a smaller AFB carburetor. The machinist told me my cylinders cannot be bored .030 and a .060 bore is needed. I hope he isn’t telling me that so he can use standard-size 400 pistons. He wants to use Diamond forged pistons with a dish to lower the compression. He doesn’t care for Ross pistons.

Dan, I agree that Chevrolets are less costly to build. However, I am not trying to win a race. I am looking for a stock rebuild with a cam upgrade. The pistons and the Eagle rods the machinist recommends is the expensive part. I would like to at least achieve my goal within a $4,000 to $5,000 range.

I am concerned that I haven’t gotten a price. The machinist won’t allow me to bring any parts and I do have some pieces I already have that would go to waste if I don’t use them. He says his markup on parts is “fair.” He has also told me he pretty much puts roller cams in all the engines he builds. I don’t want to spend money on things I really don’t need. A roller cam is one of those things.

I am not in a hurry to build this engine, but it has been at the machine shop for two months. I took it in for a clean and mag and to see if I had useable cores. My communication with this guy has been scant. I sent him an e-mail explaining what I’m looking for. I haven’t heard back. I picked this shop only because I have been convinced to take my engine to a shop that can build a Pontiac engine. This shop was referenced in the How to build Max Performance Pontiac V8s book by Rocky Rotella. 

My neighbor is a retired machinist. He has his own little shop in his garage. He builds everything from Allis Chalmers engines, Model T engines, and domestic V8s for racing and street use. A lot of people in the local car/race community take engines to him. He’d have my engine now if I didn’t take it where it has been since early February. I know my neighbor could handle the task between what he knows and what I can convey to him based on information I have acquired (including from this site from you great guys). With my neighbor, I could get more involved building the engine and I could also get my own parts.

If I don’t hear back from this machine shop, I think I will contact him to let him know I will pick up my engine and pay him for services rendered. I think he is signaling to me that he doesn’t want me for a customer. I am also hoping this could be a project I'd actually have fun doing rather than it becoming a dreadful life draining chore.

I take your opinions seriously and I really appreciate all of them.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

extinctmake said:


> Geeteeohguy, I still have a printed copy of your post about how you helped a friend build the 389 in his ’65 GTO. I am trying to do that at a slightly lesser scale due to my using a smaller AFB carburetor. The machinist told me my cylinders cannot be bored .030 and a .060 bore is needed. I hope he isn’t telling me that so he can use standard-size 400 pistons. He wants to use Diamond forged pistons with a dish to lower the compression. He doesn’t care for Ross pistons.
> 
> Dan, I agree that Chevrolets are less costly to build. However, I am not trying to win a race. I am looking for a stock rebuild with a cam upgrade. The pistons and the Eagle rods the machinist recommends is the expensive part. I would like to at least achieve my goal within a $4,000 to $5,000 range.
> 
> ...


I think the idea of your neighbor sounds real good! It sounds like he would let you help with the build and choose your parts while inputting if he feels its a bad choice. Importantly is that you enjoy this engine build. Rocky's dude sounds like a micro-manager....not good. Just my 2 cents.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...The worst thing that can happen is I will just pay him for services rendered and collect my engine and plan on going elsewhere to have it built."


From what I've read, this is exactly what I'd do. I personally would not do business with a guy with his attitude.


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Yeah, I hope I’m not being out of line or inpatient.

It’s been two months and I’ve had two conversations with the machinist. Both were short and neither seemed very cordial. I felt like I was bothering him. He didn’t seem like he wanted to hear what I was looking for. So much for the customer being “right.” I am very open minded and I want to do this job right.

My only drawback is I’m not after a very exciting or high tech/profile engine build, that will withstand 800 H.P. or nitrous. I am looking to rebuild my engine stock (with a cam upgrade) with the intent to allow it to run on lower octane gas and that is, admittedly, not exciting. 

I at least want to get a bid from him and hear what he recommends. I sent an e-mail outlining what I am looking for. I would think by now he would contact me and tell me what he can do and for what cost. 

I will wait a little longer, but by Easter I will either have a plan in place with him or I will have gotten my mess of cast iron back.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I'm in a hurry and it's early so I'll be short and sweet: WHY doesn't the machinist like Ross Pistons? My feeling (and I do automotive for a living and have for going on 40 years) is that the machinist has a connection for 'his' pistons, they are cheaper and more profitable, and only available in 400 standard bore, or .060" for your 389. He is trying to cut a corner and at the same time, maximize his profit. You will end up with lesser pistons and a block that can not be rebuilt again. I _strongly_ recommend you use another machinist. Did you call contact Paul Carter of Koerner Racing Engines? Not necessarily to use, but to simply inquire. I don't like the information your getting from your guy, and have been down this road before many times. It never seems to end well for the customer.


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Geeteeohguy, when I took my engine to him for the “clean and mag” we talked about parts and when I mentioned Ross pistons he replied Ross pistons are loud.

He also told me he had not installed a flat tappet cam in an engine in years. He mentioned last using one for a 1950s Cadillac engine he built. He recommended a roller cam, which I feel I do not need for my application.

Like many on this site, he too condemned using the factory rods stating the rods are the weak link in Pontiac V8s. He uses Eagle rods. The Eagle rods I found on the Eagle site are over $700 and are recommended for engines pushing 800 H.P. and up. Overkill for what I need.

Right now, rods, pistons, and cams are the furthest thing from my mind. It’s easy to think that way when the machine shop never calls or replies to my e-mail in the two -plus months my engine has been in his shop. I had to call him to find out what was going on. I waited a month so not to be pushy. When I called he told me it was done and checked fine…..then why didn’t he call me to tell me that? If I had not called, would I still be waiting to hear about something that has been done for two months already?

He did get right on me when I mentioned I had some parts I might want to use that I can’t bring any parts. When I asked what his parts markup was he replied, “it’s fair.” I still have no idea what his shop rate is, what his markup is, or any estimate on what this will cost. I don’t want to come across as being cheap, but I’m not made out of money and what I’m looking for to suit my needs is not extravagant. I am looking at restoring my engine with a cam upgrade (maybe a Spott's 068) and get it to run on 91 octane while remaining numbers correct. I have saved up some cash and have my other GTO to sell to cover most of the expense for this project.

I’d like to be more involved with this project to make it fun as well. I don’t think I should be kept in the dark on what things will cost, how things will get done, and what brand or kind of parts will be used. I don’t want to end up paying eight grand for a $4,000 to $5,000 engine.

I lined up a friend’s engine stand. I think I am going to go ahead and call this guy and tell him I will come and pick up my engine and pay him his fee for the “clean and mag.” I’ve waited many years to build this engine and put it back in the car it was built with. What’s another few months going to hurt?

Yeah, and I will contact that Koerner Racing Engines for some insight of what I want to do. 

Thanks yet again Geeteeohguy.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Great decision, EM. I have not experienced Ross pistons being noisy. True, all forged pistons can be noisier when cold than cast pistons, but I have never found this to be even noticeable, and I run forged pistons in EVERYTHING. I also run flat tappet camshafts in EVERYTHING. You DO NOT need to go roller. Trust me, it's over-rated. And I've seen plenty of roller parts failures, too. The trick is to get a GOOD USA made flat tappet cam and lifters. Not off-shore, non-hardened-out of specification parts. Many, many cheap, off-the-shelf pistons are available for the 400 Pontiac. None are available for the 389. It is very common, unfortunately, for people to bore out a 389 so that it can accommodate the cheap and readily available pistons. The only winner here is the machinist. Glad you are moving on with somebody else. You can have a great running 389 for under 4k or less if you do the homework.....


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Well my experience at my chosen machine shop has taken a turn…..for the better.

A couple of weeks ago I went to check on my engine with the prospect of just getting it back. I took in in to see if it was re-buildable. A clean & mag. I went to the shop and it was ready to go. He was working on a couple of marine Chevy big blocks on his dyno. We talked about the condition of the engine and it was good. He told me a .030 bore won’t clean it up. It will need to go .060. I wasn’t surprise because the engine sat in the car in a field for years with one head removed and water had gotten in the cylinders. Some of the pistons were rusted in the cylinders and it was difficult to take it apart.

Then it got puzzling. He charged me $364. The quote when I took it in was $300. It was $64 more because he went ahead and turned the crank. He said the Arma Steel crank was good. It only needed .010 off the mains and rods. He chamfered the oil holes and all that was left to do was deburr and polish. I looked at the invoice. He charged just $148 to recondition the crank. The rest of the bill was for the cleaning and mag. We talked about stainless valves and hardened valve seats and he said the hardened seats are only $100, so why not use them. I expected hardened seats to cost more. He uses Ferrea stainless valves and bronze valve guides. All engines receive screw-in rocker arm studs and roller rocker arms.

We talked about what kind of plan to hatch for the engine. When I left with my engine I told him I’d be back in a couple of weeks. Today I drove my GTO to his machine shop so he could get an idea of what I’m looking for. He appreciated the car and realized the stock AFB set up on my car should not be replaced with a Holley. He liked I have a 3.23 axle ratio and he factors that in how he will build my engine along with my car having a 4-speed transmission.

When I arrived, he was finishing a 350 for a ’68 Firebird resto. It is a two-barrel stocker, but he still upgraded it with Eagle rods, forged pistons, and a custom ground Howard’s hydraulic roller cam. He uses Howard’s roller cams in all the engines he builds. He says it makes a more modern and better performing engine and Howard’s will grind a cam just for a specific application. He reminded me that all engines built over the past 20-odd years use roller cams. He likes Howard’s because it’s not made off shore (Wisconsin) and they work with him on custom grinds. He had some bad experiences with Comp Cams and they didn’t seem interested in working with him. He has built many Pontiac resto engines that appear stock on the outside with modern upgrades inside. 

So, I am going to get a quote from him soon. There's an opening to bring the engine back to the shop in July. I know I will spend more than the $4,000-$5,000 I anticipated, but I think I could get more in return. I like the prospect that the engine will be broke-in and tuned on a dyno. The valve train will be set. I will know how well it will run before I put it back in the car. I won’t even have to paint it. The engine will be all ready to install before it leaves. No surprises or doubts. He will use any of the existing items from the 389 currently in my GTO and that will save costs and maintain the stock appearance (correct bolts, plug wires, etc.). 

I know some people don't like roller cams and I figured on using a flat tappet cam, but it's hard to ignore the number of engines being built using roller valve trains. I have a roller valve train in my 2002 Silverado and it has been trouble free for over 200,000 miles. Maybe I need to at least have an open mind and hear the man out on his proposal.


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## Muscle_Cars_Only (Dec 15, 2016)

FWIW - If I'm having a shop build my motor - They're building it with the parts I want in it !!! I understand he's got to make a living and it's his reputation on the line , Therefore , the shopping list is handed over and he can purchase and do his markup.. Keep in mind - the machine shop works for you, not the other way around! ! ! Does he have to live with the choices he's made for your engine? 

If my machine shop wanted to go roller and I did not, it would not get a roller P E R I O D ! ! I'd go to your neighbor or another shop. Personally, If your neighbor knows PONCHOS , I'd go with him and get the satisfaction of having hands on in building it ..


My .02


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...Many, many cheap, off-the-shelf pistons are available for the 400 Pontiac. None are available for the 389..."

Don't know exactly what your idea of cheap is. But, Sealed power 288P cast pistons are still available for the 389.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-288p30

The only forged 389 shelf pistons, I'm aware of, are the DSS brand. But, they cost about as much as some custom pistons. 

http://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...4-080-or-4-100-bore.html?ref=category:1234874

https://dssracing.cld.bz/DSS-RACING171/38-39#zoom=z


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I agree the machinist is going with what he is comfortable with ( off the shelf 400 pistons and roller cam) and not necessarily keeping in line with the owner's wish of a basically stock solid engine. I would personally not go the roller-route or off-shelf 400 piston route, but that's my opinion. I would try for a .040" overbore and get custom pistons and run a good flat tappet camshaft. But I've already said all this. Your engine, your choice.


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

I know what you’re saying geeteeohguy, but after hanging around his shop a couple of times and looking at what he is building it makes me wonder if I’ve been stuck in 1982 too long. I think a lot of old school types would have appreciated what was going on around the shop.

The reason I chose this shop is because it falls in line of what I’ve been told that it is important to find a machine shop that knows how to build a Pontiac engine. Living in the Omaha area where the author of the book, How to Rebuild Pontiac V8s, Rocky Rotella, lives pointed me in the direction I am now. This shop built some of the engines in his book and for him. And he has built some other high end Pontiac engines. Currently he has a 1960 389 Tri Power he is going to re-rebuild the right way after someone else didn’t. He was finishing a 350 two-barrel stocker with some mods for a ’68 Firebird restoration. 

One of the reasons he uses roller valve trains is he advocates the 4 for 7 firing order swap. He builds a lot of racing engines for circle track and drag racing. He told me he has built many Pontiac V8s employing the 4 for 7 swap and even if a street engine may not realize much of a power gain changing the firing order, the engines run cooler, smoother, and the torsional vibration on the crank and bearings is reduced. He believes these measures help make an engine last and operate more efficiently.

I want to at least get an estimate. Most of the brands of parts he uses I like. He buys parts for less than I can get them and charges what I would pay if I went the Jegs/Summit retail route. The only difference he has in preference over what I have is Howards cams and Diamond pistons. But he said he has good results having both companies custom build roller cams and forged dished pistons for him. 

The real difference maker was that I drove my GTO to his shop so he could see what I am looking for and where/how the engine he builds will be used. He likes my car and likes how I still run the OEM Carter AFB. The only exterior alterations he recommends is a Pertronix ignition conversion for the original distributor (if my tach will still work using it) and Ram Air restorations H.O. exhaust manifolds with Pypes exhaust X pipe. He has built many stock appearing Pontiac engines with internal upgrades with Eagle rods, Ferrea stainless valves, bronze guides, and screw-in rocker arm studs. 

I figured on spending at least $5,000 for an engine. If I can get more for my money by spending a little more to have something broke in and tested and tuned on a dyno and he includes exhaust and ignition upgrades, it might be a good value. It could be a strong running reliable modern engine that is the solution to fit with today’s driving realities.

I guess we’ll see the tale of the tape and go from there.


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Here is an article I found with information about 4 for 7 firing order swaps.

https://www.motor.com/magazinepdfs/032009_07.pdf


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

https://www.summitracing.com/search/product-line/howards-cams-4-7-swap-camshafts/make/pontiac


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## 64GTOConvertible (Aug 28, 2016)

That 4 for 7 swap is gonna piss someone off down the line. LOL

The old 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 is ingrained in a lot of us.


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

I'm going on a limb here and say you will be closer to 10000 than 5000 when done. Good luck.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...I figured on spending at least $5,000 for an engine..."


Yeah, just the roller cam set-up, rods & pistons will be over $2000. A properly built engine with H-beam rods, Diamond pistons, a HR set-up, and correctly done heads with stainless valves, will cost MUCH closer to $10k than $5k. 

Here's all you can get for $5k.

455 Long Block


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Personally, and just my opinion as a 40-year GTO guy who's owned several and driven many, I don't like the direction this build is headed. Way too many exotic, over-engineered additions that have no place on an everyday street driver. The only thing I see here is a machinist making maximum profit. I said it before, I'll say it again, if it were me, I'd be looking for another machinist. I am currently running two Pontiac engines with flat tappet cams, stock firing orders, and stock carburetion and ignition systems. My 389 hasn't been opened up or missed a beat since the rebuild it got in 1981, and my 400 got pulled down for a reseal job in 2011, 23 years and 88,000 miles after its 1988 rebuild. The internals, including its old school 068 cam, still looked like brand new. Do what you will, but I see a $10,000 dollar build here with no realized improvement over a basic build for half that price. Good luck to you.


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Well I am taking your advice at heart. I still have yet to get an estimate from this machine shop and I at least want to hear what he proposes. 
If his bid is towards what you guys predict, I will be out for sure. I don’t want to spend $8,000 plus on this engine. Most of what he proposes is what I had in mind, except for the roller valve train, using a 4 for 7 swap. I have read some about 4 for 7 swaps and it seems to work well, but I also know I can live without it.

Right now, I have a free and clear core that is re-buildable and the crank has been turned .010/.010, de-burred, polished, and the oil holes chamfered. I am paid up, with just $364 in this project.

Sticker shock will make me hit pause and look elsewhere. Or I can just request a traditional flat tappet valve train. I already talked him out of switching me away from my AFB to a Holley. He saw my car and has a better understanding where this engine is going to land. 

I am being more patient now. I have a running car right now, so it’s not a crisis to build this engine immediately. His prices include Ram Air exhaust manifolds and converting the points ignition to Pertronix. He runs the engines on a dynometer and sets them up before they head for the cherry picker. I like the idea knowing how the engine runs and that it doesn’t leak before putting it in the car. 

Again, we’ll see what he says. I did ask him what $5,000 would do and he said that would cover 2/3s of the build. He says most engines cost about $7,500, but mine would be less since I already have things like the carburetor etc.

I really appreciate and respect all your points of view. I will post what I hear. Thanks guys!


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Extinctmake, My four cents(inflation)...

a rebuild should be much easier than your are going through... I would run not walk to another builder. Good ones are hard to find but taking your time "interviewing" and checking around town for references will help. One builder told me "oh it will be 6K plus shipping which he would not tell me what type of shipping (how much is that? Are you talking overnight or slow boat from china?) and tax, if you dismantle and reassemble it will save you about 5 months and I'll knock off a couple hundred" What?! As I said, I ran to the guy I ended up using.

Oh, ad if they start trying to talk you into things you don't want or don't know about find a guy that will do what you want!


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

IMHO, (have had quite a Pontiac RA & HO engines built) the 4-7 swap & the Hydraulic roller cam makes little sense, exc for the SELLER. The 326-400 Pontiac engine family has 3.0" diam mains, not small near 2.56" diam mains, the 389 will not living in a world where its crank going to be stressed. All the talk about harmonics...lol. The stock head flow from a set of 716/77/093 casting heads restricts any serious power up top... 180 to 185 Cfm @ 28" @ .400 intake valve lift...maybe 190 Cfm @ .500 valve lift on the intake side. 

Spending all the extra funds for a HFT cam install, & for that matter the Eagle rods in a stock head flow 389 with the restrictive stock AFB & 3.23 gears...going in a car that's going to get the occasional driver duty, oh yeah, sounds like something a high priced engine shop 45 miles south of me would pull. An old friend (& a very accomplished Pontiac guy) worked in that particular local shop for over a decade, & I felt confident when he was performing what I ask him to do, machine work wise, otherwise, I did not use this shop. Before this old friend's tenure there, the owners son in law who worked the sales counter tried to run me up bill of over $2800 plus tax on a '70 WS engine build. that was 3 decades ago! the rebuild was to be with cheap Sealed Power valves & run of the mill TRW forged pistons & a Crane copy of the 068 cam. I kept that build tally sheet for amusement, & instead have went with 3 different engine shops over the years from the same region, one being a very well versed 35+ year career Pontiac engine builder. Currently, am working on two Pure Stock engine builds, rules are strict, correct heads, no porting, no gasketmatching. both require a custom ground HFT cam which limits gross valve lift @ .424", engines have to make 16" vacuum @ 1200 rpm. 445 gross HP/540 ft lbs torque is the goal & the goal for each will be met. Neither engine build is going to break the bank, either.


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Guys I really appreciate the advice. 

I am not going to go with the 4 for 7 swap or a roller cam. 

I plan on visiting the shop in the next week or so since he has an opening in July. 

Basically after talking with the machinist, thinking about the advice I have gotten, and re-examining the fact that my car is a restored car and not some tubbed street machine, race car, pro touring car, or anything other than a stock well-restored ’65 GTO convertible, I am going for what I really need which is a quality stock rebuild. 

I showed the car to the machinist and he was taken aback at what I have. I am down to the correct AFB carburetor (Carter 3895S), 067 cam, points distributor with the old school recurve where full advance comes in at 3,000 RPM, and the correct exhaust system. I had to have the header pipes made. I’m not tossing that out for X pipes etc. 

I don’t want to toss away anything on my car. All I need is to switch out long blocks.

I am going to convey the following: I have two identical engines. One engine is in the car and the other is the one to the car. I need the original engine to the car rebuilt to put back in the car with everything else put back on. It should all go back together. These engines are the same…WT code 1965 335 h.p. 389 used as the base engine in my car.

The cam I am going to request is the old school “068” H.O. cam. Melling makes it (SPC-7) and the machinist’s preferred cam supplier, Howard’s, also makes the “068” cam. Just need good lifters and I expect Melling and Howard’s makes good lifters. This cam is tried and true and the engine will idle nice and there will be plenty of low end torque put to the old red line tires. 

The pistons need to be dished and that is a given to reduce the compression. I will splurge for the Eagle rods. Everybody has said to not use the old cast rods and for the difference in price between the Eagle rods and reconditioning the cast rods, it’s money well spent. The crank has already been turned. 

The heads should get the Ferrea stainless valves and for $100 I can have hardened valve seats put in. I can go for the screw-in rocker arm studs. 
This shop is well known in the area for doing great work. It is geared towards the racing crowd and hot rod set, so I was told by others in town that showing the car to him so he could see I wasn’t trying to set a record E.T. was a good idea.

I guess if he doesn’t want to build this engine as I need it, I can go elsewhere.

Thanks guys. I’ll keep you posted.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Appreciate the update. Am glad I'm not in your shoes in this matter....Yikes!


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

_Appreciate the update. Am glad I'm not in your shoes in this matter....Yikes! :------

Thanks 1968gto421. Actually it's not bad. I drove my car today and the engine in it runs good. If I do nothing with this engine I'm still behind the wheel. 

I think a lot of shops these day are out building engines that are borderline non streetable to the point that they don't know how to react to somebody who just wants to have an engine that will operate as it did originally but on today's low octane gas. 

We will see if Willard Machine will understand what I am looking for. I hope so because he is very respected in the Omaha area. He's built many great engines and many circle track engines. he is in Rocky Rotella's Pontiac engine building book. I think he just needs to realize not every customer is out to set an NHRA record. 

I will convey to him I just need to replicate what I already have in my car, but with lower compression and an upgrade from the 067 GTO cam to the H.O. 068 cam. I want to put everything else that I have on the car right now back on the long block I need built.

I want to believe that will happen. I will see him in the next week or so before I take my engine for my July appointment.

If not....I can still drive my '65 GTO and look for some other shop that can build what I need._


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Another thanks for the update. You are going ahead with a solid plan....I would do it exactly like you are if it were my car. You'll end up with a solid, reliable car that drives as it should and should last for years. Good luck.


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Thanks geeteeohguy. I really value all you traditionalists. I restored my car to be like it was supposed to be. 

I actually drove my GTO tonight to a Quaker Steak cruise night. Ran into a friend who had his engine to his '71 GTO built by this shop. Very good work, but he went the roller route. Spent over 8 grand. I talked to him about my situation. He agreed that I need to spell out what I'm looking for. 

I just need a long block. My original engine built right so I can put all my current pieces back on my car. I do want to move up from the 067 cam that I have in my current engine to a 068 H.O. cam. I am going to tell the machinist that doing that cam swap is like a guy restoring a '57 Chevy and putting a classic Duntov 30-30 solid lifter cam in the 283. A classic set up. An 068 cam is a Pontiac institution. The idle. The sound. The low-end torque. That's all I need.

I have been driving my 067 cammed goat and I actually appreciate how it runs. If I can't get my engine done this year, by this shop, the way I need it, I get to take my stuff and go. I am still driving my GTO. It has been a great mill for the 12 plus years I've had it in my car.

So I plan on visiting the shop this month. My appointment is scheduled for in July so I need to make sure everybody is on the same page. I want to make sure what I need is in the script. I will splurge for the Eagle rods. Good insurance and all I'm looking at is the difference between going with the Eagle rods vs. reconditioning the 50-plus year-old cast rods upgrading with ARP rod bolts. 

I can go with the hardened vale seats and the stainless steel valves. Screw-in rocker arm studs are better even though a 068 cam allows the old press-in studs to work out. 

Anyway. I'm not going off the deep end here. If I can't get what I need, I will talk to my machinist neighbor. Maybe we could build the engine if this venture goes bust.

I'll keep you posted and I wish I could chat with you guys at a cruise night. Omaha is a long ways from Texas and Fresno etc. 

Thanks for sharing your wisdom and keeping me on the right track.


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Well I visited the machine shop and we now have a sensible plan in place to rebuild my numbers-matching engine. It will be a conventional build with a few upgrades. 

With success I explained that I am working with a restored car and not a street rod. I have two identical engines. The one in the car and the one to the car. I need a long block and I can swap engines and put everything back into place.

There will be no roller cam with a 4 for 7 firing order swap. I selected a 068 cam, but he said those were best on higher compression engines. I countered with another popular cam for street Pontiacs. This one is made by a cam grinder that makes this cam for many parts brands. It is most popularly known as the Summit 2801 cam. It is also labeled by Jegs, Crower, Spotts, Sealed Power/Speed Pro among others. The machinist likes dealing with Speed Pro, so a part number CS1022R performance cam is what we’ll use. It is essentially a 068 cam with higher lift. The numbers are .443 intake lift, .465 exhaust. Intake duration @ .050 is 214 degrees and exhaust is 224 degrees. It has 61 degrees of overlap and a lobe separation of 112 degrees. I think it will work well for my application. He only uses Delphi lifters if a flat tappet cam is being used. He mentioned some of the old companies that used to make lifters, like Eaton, are not making them now. He has run across many inferior off shore lifters. The Delphi ones seem to still be of good quality.

I will splurge on the Eagle rods. I’m looking at around $200 difference between those and reconditioning my old cast rods that most Pontiac people have condemned as hazardous to the health of the engine.

For the same price as stock rocker arms, I can get Comp Cams roller-tipped rocker arms. 

As for pistons, I can save $500 using a hypereutectic dished piston that the machinist has had good results for street use. He calculated my compression ratio at 9.44:1. It could end up closer to 9.25:1 if the chambers are larger than the advertised 65cc. I’d like it to be between 9:1 and 9.25:1. Clevite bearings, Melling oil pump, and the Arma steel crank has been turned .010/.010 and the oil holes were chamfered. He still needs to deburr and polish it before balancing.

The heads will get a makeover. At first, we figured on using stainless steel valves, but hardened valve seats cost just $100, so we can get away with stock valves. He likes bronze guides.

A final decision I need to make is whether to spring for H.O. exhaust manifolds. I discovered Ram Air Restorations offers nifty “splice pipes” that would enable me to use my existing head pipes. The battery cable routing will have to change as well. Will I need to just use the battery cables and cable tube for a ’67 GTO that has a 400 H.O. engine to make these manifolds fit? I’m on the fence on this wondering if it would make a noticeable difference that matches the expenditure.

Anyway, I am taking it to the shop in mid-July. I appreciate everybody’s input and I will keep all of you posted on how it is going.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Wow that was exhausting. Engine building and paint jobs can be some of the most stressing things to get done. In the end it seems luck has a big part in it all. Good luck on that engine build. At least you have some time to get more info. Maybe look up the shops reviews online. keep us informed.


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

That's and old post. Don't think we have ever heard back from him. Doug


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

dd68gto said:


> That's and old post. Don't think we have ever heard back from him. Doug


Dang I got to pay more attention.:smash:


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

RMTZ67 said:


> dd68gto said:
> 
> 
> > That's and old post. Don't think we have ever heard back from him. Doug
> ...


We have all done it. I compare it to talking to someone in a room and after a few minutes realize they left the room long ago. Doug


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## firemedic835 (Sep 22, 2017)

Well Guy's, since we are on engine talk. I recently purchased a 1964 GTO (November of 2018). I got it from an original owner who purchased it when he was 21 out of the military. Talking with him he mentioned everything was stock. Numbers match from Pontiac Historic Society. However, I finally got around to doing some light cleaning of the engine compartment. Car runs outstanding. Much stronger than expected for a 389 Tri Power, which is what I was told was in it. My concern is the Block has the letters WJ, which I cant find under the 1964 engine code. Any suggestion's?


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## firemedic835 (Sep 22, 2017)

185940 WJ is on the front of the block, I asked the owner and he said he hasn't changed anything. 74K miles on it. I do have the original title which is dated 1964,


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

firemedic835 said:


> 185940 WJ is on the front of the block, I asked the owner and he said he hasn't changed anything. 74K miles on it. I do have the original title which is dated 1964,


I am going to give you some info on s WJ block . It was not used in 1964 but it was for 1965 but not a 389 but a 421 block . This was also the same code used on some later 428 and I think 1971 455. The bummer might be it's not the original but may still be a very good block. If you want my help I need casting number back by distributer and a date code in same location. Date code should start with a letter and in you case casting should start with 4 or 9 .Also on passenger side of motor down by motor mounts (real tough to see ) should be a 421/428/455 inbossed on block. Good luck Doug


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

dd68gto said:


> firemedic835 said:
> 
> 
> > 185940 WJ is on the front of the block, I asked the owner and he said he hasn't changed anything. 74K miles on it. I do have the original title which is dated 1964,[/QUOTE
> ...


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

firemedic835 said:


> 185940 WJ is on the front of the block, I asked the owner and he said he hasn't changed anything. 74K miles on it. I do have the original title which is dated 1964,


See if you can get the date code (4 characters, top center rear, near the distributor) and the block casting number (often on the passenger side rear, just above where the bellhousing bolts up). Those two bits of information will give us a positive ID on what it is.

Bear


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

A long past due update.

The winters in Nebraska are long and cold, so around Christmas I stopped by the machine shop to drop off some more pieces to my WT code 1965 GTO engine and the block was bored and the Keith Black hypereutectic pistons were on the bench. I explained that I wasn't in a big hurry to pull my car apart over the winter, so I just left the shop with an understanding that I wouldn't need my engine until spring.


It's deep in spring, so I expect to hear from the shop that they need some pieces off my current WT code engine in my '65 GTO convertible. Before the engine leaves the machine shop, it will be ran and broke in and tuned. He will need my Carter AFB along with some other parts from my car. 

I will have a long block for sale. Somebody who is restoring a '65 GTO and needs a correct WT code 389 might be interested in the engine I've had in my car for over 13 years. 


I will need to use some parts from this engine for my rebuilt original engine, but there will be many extra items to go along with my long block I will have for sale. 


One item I will need to glean off my current engine for my rebuilt original engine is the unique dipstick. Ames does not have a reproduction. It is unique for 1964-65 GTO engines. It is nearly 30 inches long and the dipstick tube enters the block and passes through the windage tray. I would at least like to include a functioning dipstick with my extra engine. Has anybody found an aftermarket dipstick that works with these early GTO 389 engines?


I appreciate your input and once I have my engine ready for market, I will post details and a price. 


I appreciate everybody's input about my engine project. It has taken longer than I anticipated, but in the end I will have what I need for my restored car. I will let everybody know how this all plays out.


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