# 1965 gto build



## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

Hello everyone,
im starting tear down of my gto and I have my first question?.
was tking motorapart to clean parts and noticed this broke Off while I was blowing intake out. How important is it? Is there away around this?
thank you
joe


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

That's the heat source for the choke. It will run with out it, but you'll have to adjust the choke to be wide open. The heat is what opens the choke. You might be able to find replacements with the Pontiac parts businesses. I usually use Ames.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

B/T/W, if you run as is you will have to block those holes to keep from having an exhaust leak.


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> B/T/W, if you run as is you will have to block those holes to keep from having an exhaust leak.


I found a new choke stove, thanks for the info appreciate it.
joe


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

so I came across a really clean complete Tri-power setup last night so I purchased ??‍♂ill post pics once I receive.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

Congratulations! I'm eager to see it


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

I’ve searched and found so many different answers on this so I figured I’d take a best 2/3 on answer I get?. What is the actual paint color needed for engine? All my searches and it seems duplicor 1610 has the most pros vs cons??‍♂
thank you
joe


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## Jerry H. (Mar 19, 2020)

1610 is the closest you can get. Here's my recently finished 65 GP engine:


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

First ba


Jerry H. said:


> 1610 is the closest you can get. Here's my recently finished 65 GP engine:


looks real nice??. It’s crazy how many diff Pontiac blue there are lol.


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

A lot of post also showed the 1616 but IMHO it don’t look anything like color ??‍♂


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

On its way,should be here by fri ?


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

Looks good!


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

Very nice!


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

alot of progress this week ? was like Christmas everyday with packages lol


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

Would anyone have vacuum hose diagram and engine wire diagram? Would appreciate if can post.
thank you
joe


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

I assumed trans was natural color but is it supposed to match motor? Looks like it was blue or am I color blind lol


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## Jerry H. (Mar 19, 2020)

It is the natural aluminum color. If it's blue then someone has painted it.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Buttinz said:


> alot of progress this week ? was like Christmas everyday with packages lol


Are you rebuilding the engine or just putting lipstick on it to look good and resell it? Looks in rough shape on the inside.


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

Car is not being sold lol, I’m surprising my father in law with it as he always wanted a 65 gto.cylinder walls were good,pulled caps all bearings good so cleaned everything block&heads reassembled it. Did replace all gaskets&seals,water pump,oil pump fuel pump,dist,etc.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

It looks pretty good inside, and it looks weathered on the outside.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

Old Man Taylor said:


> It looks pretty good inside, and it looks weathered on the outside.



BEFORE your work.


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

crazy question, what is this? Its Plugged into engine harness and just hanging. I have to be honest I have not even the slightest clue ???‍♂.
thanks
Joe


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

It looks like a brake pedal switch.


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> It looks like a brake pedal switch.


I was thinking tha but has grease all over like was in engine bay/on motor?


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

Maybe kick down switch?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Buttinz said:


> Car is not being sold lol, I’m surprising my father in law with it as he always wanted a 65 gto.cylinder walls were good,pulled caps all bearings good so cleaned everything block&heads reassembled it. Did replace all gaskets&seals,water pump,oil pump fuel pump,dist,etc.



OK, that part didn't make it into the photos.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Buttinz said:


> Maybe kick down switch?


X2 on possibly the transmission kick-down switch. The ST-300 2-speed transmission used them and I believe they were attached somehow to the carb linkage? They seem to be hard to find it that is what it is. Maybe the service manual has a diagram of it.


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

is there a certain manual I can buy that would have engine wire schematic, all suspension torque specs&vacuum diagrams specific for the 65?
thanks


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Buttinz said:


> is there a certain manual I can buy that would have engine wire schematic, all suspension torque specs&vacuum diagrams specific for the 65?
> thanks











FAQ - General: GTO and Pontiac Reference Sources


Surprised this has not been brought up - a suggested reading list for us Pontiac enthusiasts. Let's list any books, journals, factory literature, CD's, or other printed materials tht may be of value. And, it does not have to necessarily be Pontiac specific if it can be applied to out hobby...




www.gtoforum.com





Just click on the top line "Books, Pontiac Reading"


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> FAQ - General: GTO and Pontiac Reference Sources
> 
> 
> Surprised this has not been brought up - a suggested reading list for us Pontiac enthusiasts. Let's list any books, journals, factory literature, CD's, or other printed materials tht may be of value. And, it does not have to necessarily be Pontiac specific if it can be applied to out hobby...
> ...


Perfect. Thanks


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

The first book I would get would be the factory chassis shop manual. I wore my first one out.


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> The first book I would get would be the factory chassis shop manual. I wore my first one out.


I purchased both tonight chassis&body from rockauto


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## 64since65 (Dec 11, 2019)

That intake manifold looks like the right color to me. Photos can be deceptive but it looks like mine. I don't recall ever painting my intake and we've owned the car since 1965. I bought some paint from NPD that was supposed to be correct for 64-65 Pontiac engines but it looks too dark. The correct paint was often called robin's egg blue but I believe the stuff from NPD is called sky blue and it is definitely darker than my original intake manifold. I'm planning to take my intake somewhere to get a paint match before I clean and repaint it - IF I can get it done in an engine paint. Otherwise I'll be stuck with whatever is out there. The only thing that makes me unsure about the color on my intake is whether or not the paint would have faded over the years - but would it do that if not exposed to the sun?
This picture just has the carbs sitting there for my viewing pleasure after rebuilding them. I know the manifold wasn't recently painted because it still has gasket material stuck to it under the carbs and it's been sitting in my barn for about 32 years.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

I wouldn't match the manifold. The color changes from the heat when it is run. Hold out for the correct Robin's Egg Blue. My '69 started as a pretty metallic blue, and ended up looking a yucky blue green.


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

Can’t find inner fenders for the 65, but after searching some say the 66 is the samething and those are available. Is this true?
thank you


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## Jerry H. (Mar 19, 2020)

I think the 66's you refer to have an indention in the driver's side inner fender to accommodate the larger power brake booster for the 67's. They should work but won't be concours correct.


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

Jerry H. said:


> I think the 66's you refer to have an indention in the driver's side inner fender to accommodate the larger power brake booster for the 67's. They should work but won't be concours correct.


That may actually benefit me as I’m doing four wheel disc brakes on the car and I believe the booster is larger.i just wasn’t sure if they We’re direct bolt on or need to be modified.
thanks


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

Chassis tear down begins😬literally went to war with every bolt🥴


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

At least the engine/nose is off which makes wrestling with the front end parts easier to access. Putting it all back together will be a breeze.


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

I plan on using por15 on chassis,what should I use on the body floor pans underneath?


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## Jerry H. (Mar 19, 2020)

From the pictures it sure needs sandblasting. If you can find a source to sandblast it and powder coat it that would be your best bet. Might cost a little but would save a lot of time and aggravation. I would use POR 15 on the floor pans only if they have serious rust that you can't get out. It would be my last resort.


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

Crazy how big these cars are 😂.i never realized it lol.the quarter panel is just about size of my cobra😜


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

Car starts right up but as soon as I let go of key it shuts off. If I hold key in start position it stays running. Weird, any ideas? Bad ignition switch maybe?
thanks


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Buttinz said:


> Car starts right up but as soon as I let go of key it shuts off. If I hold key in start position it stays running. Weird, any ideas? Bad ignition switch maybe?
> thanks


Stock ignition system?

When some do an electronic conversion, they are told to pull the 12V off the starter solenoid, the "S" terminal. This will do exactly what you describe. The "S" terminal is energized as long as the starter is cranking and the engine will fire off, but the minute the starter is disengaged, the 12V from the "S" terminal is disconnected and the engine quits.

If stock set-up, points/resistor wire, you should have 2 wires going to the + coil terminal. One wire is 12V for starting, then the other wire is 7-8 volts when car is running. You can look there to see if you have both wires.

To do a quick test, run a jumper wire to the + coil terminal from your battery. Start the engine and if it continues to run, then you are not getting 12V to the coil in the "Run" position on the key switch. To stop engine, pull the jumper wire.

Then you can diagnose from there - needs wiring, bad wiring, bad ignition switch, etc..


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Stock ignition system?
> 
> When some do an electronic conversion, they are told to pull the 12V off the starter solenoid, the "S" terminal. This will do exactly what you describe. The "S" terminal is energized as long as the starter is cranking and the engine will fire off, but the minute the starter is disengaged, the 12V from the "S" terminal is disconnected and the engine quits.
> 
> ...


Stock dist with points eliminator kit. at the moment I have only 1 wire going to the +coil and that’s the resistor wire from harness. The - side of coil is dist.


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

What would be the second wire on + coil? S on starter solenoid to the +coil?
thanks


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

One wire means a wire is missing


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

Should be a light colored wire from the starter solenoid, white ish yellow ish ...

The other wire is from the ignition switch, forgot what color, but it will be hot in "Run" position of the ignition switch.

The first wire from the starter , will be hot while cranking the engine.


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

LATECH said:


> Should be a light colored wire from the starter solenoid, white ish yellow ish ...
> 
> The other wire is from the ignition switch, forgot what color, but it will be hot in "Run" position of the ignition switch.
> 
> The first wire from the starter , will be hot while cranking the engine.


I’m pretty sure the wire going to +coil is black/pink stripe


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

It’s the resistor wire


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

Then it should be hot in run, not while cranking the engine


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

LATECH said:


> Then it should be hot in run, not while cranking the engine


Now I’m really confused lol. ill dbl check but I’m certain it’s the resistor wire.


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

That’s on +side


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

Yes


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

Unhook the wire on the + side of the coil.Then turn the key to ON. Check to see if the wire is powered up. If not, then you have an open circuit somewhere, as stated, bad resistor wire, or ignition switch etc.


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

There deff is no wire going from starter to coil that I’m sure of.the starter has 2 wires on it the battery and another one from harness


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

Also check the starter for the wire on the " I " terminal..


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

LATECH said:


> Unhook the wire on the + side of the coil.Then turn the key to ON. Check to see if the wire is powered up. If not, then you have an open circuit somewhere, as stated, bad resistor wire, or ignition switch etc.


It is powered when Key on.


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

My 64 has a wire from the I terminal and from the igniton switch to the Coil + side.I would think your 65 should have


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

LATECH said:


> Also check the starter for the wire on the " I " terminal..


pretty sure I have no wire on I


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

Buttinz said:


> It is powered when Key on.


Then it doesnt make sense that the car only runs while cranking and not in the run position of the ignition switch


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

Check to see if it is powered up while cranking the engine


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

LATECH said:


> Check to see if it is powered up while cranking the engine


I’ll check wire again to make sure.but I’m pretty sure nothing on “I” aswell. Appreciate the help
thanks. Not in garage so I’ll check tomorrow and post wire locations and colors.
thanks


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Buttinz said:


> I’ll check wire again to make sure.but I’m pretty sure nothing on “I” aswell. Appreciate the help
> thanks. Not in garage so I’ll check tomorrow and post wire locations and colors.
> thanks


Typically, the 1 wire going to the solenoid will be Purple and it attaches to the "S" solenoid lug. Not sure what "I" is, but Ford I believe uses the "I" for its terminal. So if the engine cranks over when you hit the key, all should be well at the starter. The problem them indicates the coil's power source, or other ignition problem, or the key switch itself, causing it to shut off when you snap the key back to the "Run" position.

You should have a neutral safety switch, ie the trans selector has to be in Park or Neutral if an automatic, but that would not allow the engine to spin over from the get-go.

The resistor wire going to the coil is typically a cloth covered wire to ID it easily. But, things are not all the same and things change. This is where a wiring diagram come in.

But, you do want 2 wires to the + coil. When the key is turned all the way to "Start", you should have 12V going to the coil through one of the wires.

When you snap the key back after the engine fires, you want 7-8V going through the resistor wire in the "Run" key position, AND, the other 12V wire will be inactive with no power at its end while in the "Run" position. It only has 12V when you go to "Start" the engine to provide a good spark to start the engine.

If the engine fires up, as you stated, then you have 12V in the "Start" position. When you snap the key back to the "Run" position, you should not have 12V - but, you just stated you did, so now I'm confused because your engine should run.

So do your testing and get back to us with your finds. It is possible the wiring is incorrect as someone may have toyed with it, or could be a short.


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

Purple wire will go to the "S" terminal.The S terminal energizes the solenoid to engage the starter motor 
Some solenoids (aftermarket ) are marked with an I for ignition, the OE GM solenoid will have an R as you suggested Jim. I have seen them marked both ways , and also , as you stated , ford uses an "I" terminal, but they are a different style solenoid , no doubt.
The "R" terminal is the ignition bypass connection to supply the coil with full power while cranking.


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

......................


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

Ok Gents, i have the purple wire from harness going to the “B” terminal on starter with battery cable. At the coil +side i have the black/pink stripe from harness and dist on -side. Ignition on i have 8v at coil when turn to start i get full volts then let go of key back to 8v And car shuts off🤨🤷🏻‍♂️


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## the65gto (Oct 9, 2008)

See if this helps. GTO Wiring Diagram scans


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

I was wrong purple wire is on S


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

Idk i cant figure it out lol. Has to be ignition switch. But still i only have 1 wire to +side coil which is resistor wire


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

LATECH said:


> Purple wire will go to the "S" terminal.The S terminal energizes the solenoid to engage the starter motor
> Some solenoids (aftermarket ) are marked with an I for ignition, the OE GM solenoid will have an R as you suggested Jim. I have seen them marked both ways , and also , as you stated , ford uses an "I" terminal, but they are a different style solenoid , no doubt.
> The "R" terminal is the ignition bypass connection to supply the coil with full power while cranking.


MY bad, it is the "S" terminal lug and I corrected it in my previous post. I could not recall, and went online to check, and a post had the purple wire going to the R terminal. Just checked my manual, key switch Purple wire connects to "S" terminal.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Buttinz said:


> Ok Gents, i have the purple wire from harness going to the “B” terminal on starter with battery cable. At the coil +side i have the black/pink stripe from harness and dist on -side. Ignition on i have 8v at coil when turn to start i get full volts then let go of key back to 8v And car shuts off🤨🤷🏻‍♂️


Something definitely wrong. You should not be getting both 8V & 12V on the same wire IF you have a resistor wire.

Is it possible you have a "ballast resistor" on the firewall like Chrysler cars use? Using a "ballast resistor" inline with the 12V power wire would accomplish the same thing, as you seem to have just the 1 wire to the + coil.

I enclosed a picture of a ballast resistor so you can see what it looks like. Now if you do have one, it has most likely gone bad as the same symptoms of a failing/failed ballast resistor acts the same way on a Mopar car - and why you always keep a spare in the glove box.

Let us know if you have this.


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

PontiacJim said:


> MY bad, it is the "S" terminal lug and I corrected it in my previous post. I could not recall, and went online to check, and a post had the purple wire going to the R terminal. Just checked my manual, key switch Purple wire connects to "S" terminal.


No problemo..


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Something definitely wrong. You should not be getting both 8V & 12V on the same wire IF you have a resistor wire.
> 
> Is it possible you have a "ballast resistor" on the firewall like Chrysler cars use? Using a "ballast resistor" inline with the 12V power wire would accomplish the same thing, as you seem to have just the 1 wire to the + coil.
> 
> ...


No I don’t have a ballast resistor, it’s deff in the wire cause when I pulled back harness to check it’s looped in a weird clothish wire from factory.


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

With test light on coil +, switch on its a dim light when crank It’s gets bright


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

Now another issue I’m having is finding a ignition switch. I have factory a/c and all The ones I find are for non a/c cars,is there really a difference?


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## the65gto (Oct 9, 2008)

Here is what the resistor wire looks like. According to the wiring diagram I sent earlier it should measure 1.32 ohms ?


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

the65gto said:


> Here is what the resistor wire looks like


Yep that’s what it looked like under tape then by coil was regular type black wire with pink stripe.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Buttinz said:


> No I don’t have a ballast resistor, it’s deff in the wire cause when I pulled back harness to check it’s looped in a weird clothish wire from factory.


Yep, clothish wire is the resistor wire and is a separate wire that woks off the key switch in the "Run" position. The key switch may indeed be different for A/C. You want to remove your key switch (not too hard) and look at the back and see what the terminal spades look like and match them up to a new switch - providing you has not been replaced already with an incorrect one.

For 1968, there are actually 3 different key switches from what I researched. First replacement I bought for my Lemans was not correct - terminal spades were different. Did more research and mine was the same as the GTO key switch. Ordered one and it was correct.


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Yep, clothish wire is the resistor wire and is a separate wire that woks off the key switch in the "Run" position. The key switch may indeed be different for A/C. You want to remove your key switch (not too hard) and look at the back and see what the terminal spades look like and match them up to a new switch - providing you has not been replaced already with an incorrect one.
> 
> For 1968, there are actually 3 different key switches from what I researched. First replacement I bought for my Lemans was not correct - terminal spades were different. Did more research and mine was the same as the GTO key switch. Ordered one and it was correct.


So the resistor wire is clothish all the way to coil? so what is the black/ pink wire? Now I’m really lost lol.
thanks


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

Curious, how many wires should be on B terminal on starter? I have 2, the battery and another red wire that was broke in engine harness in that area that I assumed went to B aswell. so I have 3 wires total on starter. Battery cable, red wire and purple


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

Should be 4

battery cable and body feed wire on B terminal
One on the S terminal (start) (Purple)

The fourth is the funky odd colored wire on the R terminal that goes to the coil + along with the blk/pk that is already on the coil +


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## Buttinz (Apr 19, 2020)

The R wire is what I’m missing👍🏻. I ran a jumper Wire of ignition power directly to coil and car runs as it should. That must be what the R terminal is.
thank you all for you help much appreciated🍻

Joe


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

Glad to hear you have sorted the problem out.


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