# internal engine work vs. supercharger



## dustyminpin (Jun 19, 2006)

Let me start out by saying that I finally got enough money scrounged up to buy my girlfriend of 3 years an engagement ring (a very biiiiig engagement ring, one stone 1.55 karats) and got married last Friday so now I can go back to buying stuff for my car. After I bought the SAP package and the JHP gauges, she said she'd leave me if I did anything more to the car before we got married, lol. 
Anyways, I can't decide between internal engine work and a Maggy supercharger. I talked to a guy at Lingenfelter and he said that they have a hopped up cam for 500 some dollars and some heads for 2300 that with a dyno tune alone would give me about 500 hp. That's with the stock headers and exhaust, with only my K&N Aircharger CAI being the only other part not OEM. I thought that sounded kind of high, 100 hp from a cam and heads? Anybody got any input there? 
So for roughly 3 grand, I got heads and a cam and 500 hp vs 6 grand for a Maggy and 130 to 160 hp (Maggy claims 130, Lingenfelter claims 160 gains with the same supercharger). That's twice as much money for 30 to 60 more horses....... What do you guys think?


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

The only question I have about the cam and heads is the ability to drive it on a daily basis. The Maggies are streetable. That Lingenfelter set up? Just don't know.

If you romp on your car, and who doesn't, expect to spend more on drivetrain bits -- as boosting engine output has a way of finding the weakest link. 

To me, the clutch would need help first, eventually followed by the rear end -- which would be helped with a Harrop diff cover and some synthetic lube.


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## EEZ GOAT (Jul 9, 2005)

i would say get it strok to a 408 for about $3,500.00. still NA and very streetable. talk to the guy at http://www.tristarperformance.com/. off I85N towards atlanta


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## dustyminpin (Jun 19, 2006)

I just got off the phone with those guys. The head mod guy didn't recomend the 408 cuz they use a different block (steel) that adds 100 pounds to the already fat ass goat. He said to go with the 402 package where they take a fresh virgin 6.0 litre aluminum block from the factory (they keep your ls2 as core like Lingenfelter does) swap the heads and crankshaft, everything forged making the bottom end of the engine bulletproof to 900-1000 hp, put a heavy duty timing chain on, a torque converter (I got the A4) and an aggressive cam all for 3800-4000 out the door labor included. 

He's got an '05 GTO and did the same work on his and has 490 rwhp. He said for some unknown reason that he can't figure out for the life of him, the '06s do better on the dyno on an average of 8 to 10 hp. Minus 30 hp do to parasitic loss of the auto A4 tranny, I'm still looking at around 460 rwhp for less then 4 grand, and still be naturally aspirated with a 6.8 litre LS2. That blows a maggy out of the water and the scary thing is, you can always supercharge the beast later on down the road, or add Kooks headers and Borla exhaust to squeek more out of her. I asked him about everyday driveability, he said that he only lost 2 mpg according to the onboard computer. So I'd be going from 18 mpg to 16 with my A4, ya it sucks ass, but I can handle that only living 17 miles from work.


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## EEZ GOAT (Jul 9, 2005)

glad you goat them. and i did mean to say 402 cid. i was drinking last night
yes it would blow a maggie out the water. i would say with the right temp/humid, it can get 500 at the rear wheels:seeya:


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## Mike_V (Mar 10, 2006)

dustyminpin said:


> all for 3800-4000 out the door labor included.


Well hot damn, what a deal. I don't think anything can touch that.


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## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

b_a_betterperson said:


> If you romp on your car, and who doesn't, expect to spend more on drivetrain bits -- as boosting engine output has a way of finding the weakest link.
> 
> To me, the clutch would need help first, eventually followed by the rear end -- which would be helped with a Harrop diff cover and some synthetic lube.


Dusty,
In addition to the sound advise BA wrote above, I question what your gonna really get for $3 to 4k for a 6.8 L engine even if Bama prices are reasonable (actually cheep) compared to the rest of the country. To me, that sounds too low for quality T & M high performance engine work. I wouldn't swap my stock LS2 (worth about $8K) as the core for a motor that has no history for reliability and terminate my warranty. Maybe I read it wrong, but that's my take from your post. Check the link below for 25 EFI crate engines available (suppliers, prices and if they require a core exchange) to use in late model GM cars. The price you quote comes nowhere near anything that's listed from a good rag article and source of info. 

Short of going into a full dissertation on the thermodynamic properties of volume, pressure, temperature relationships in the combustion cycle of an internal combustion engine and the effects stroking, adding a blower or advantages of different cam profiles and springs have on valve operation, followed by disadvantages ... my only advise is do more research before deciding where and how you want to spend the cash that's burning a hole in your pocket to obtain more power.:lol:

Good Luck with your motor decision and :cheers on your marriage, welcome to that club and may I add misery loves company :lol: 

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0604htp_25_efi_crate_motors/index.html

It took going to school for engineering to learn the 4 stroke internal combustion engine is like sex. Suck, squeeze, bang followed by boom, exhausted, then do it again ....


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## Gertythadirtygoat (Jun 1, 2007)

Ok go to a GM parts dealer and tell them u want the L92 heads with the full package throttle body. Also order c6 zo6 cams( cheapest and reliable, but can always go with others). whenever u get all that installed call diablosport and tell them what u have and they will send u a tune just for those mods. after all that u will have right over 550 hp and very very wide torque and horsepower range. You could do all that for right around $1700 (not installed). Gm hightech performance has done it. 

Cams-http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0604htp_ls2_engine_tests/index.html

Cams+Heads throttle body-http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0702gm_ls2_engine_l92_heads/


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

dustyminpin said:


> I just got off the phone with those guys. The head mod guy didn't recomend the 408 cuz they use a different block (steel) that adds 100 pounds to the already fat ass goat. He said to go with the 402 package where they take a fresh virgin 6.0 litre aluminum block from the factory (they keep your ls2 as core like Lingenfelter does) *swap the heads and crankshaft, everything forged making the bottom end of the engine bulletproof to 900-1000 hp,* put a heavy duty timing chain on, a torque converter (I got the A4) and an aggressive cam *all for 3800-4000 out the door labor included.*


That seems too good to be true. You're saying 1) they're going to *swap the *heads and *crankshaft* and 2) *everything forged making the bottom end bulletproof?* So are they swapping the stock crankshaft or are they replacing it with a forged one along with the pistons and connecting rods? Maybe I'm not reading your statement right?

Before you make a decision on which route you're going, you need to set a goal of how much power you're trying to achieve as well as how much money you have to spend because you can't have one without the other. My initial goal was to have 500 rwhp. At first I thought heads and cam but later decided to go the Maggie route. I knew that with the head/cam package I would have to get a pretty aggressive cam to reach 500 rwhp and I didn't want to get one that would shake the paint off the car at idle just to reach my goal. Anyway, before I set out to reach my goal I had already installed a LPE CAI, JBA shorty headers, Magnaflow catback exhaust and had a custom tune which put me at 365/363 to the wheels. After driving the goat with the extra power from those mods my ride just didn't feel fast/powerful enough for my taste. So I ordered the Maggie. Last year when I bought it it was shipped to my door for $5412. So as I was waiting for it to come TByrne was running a special on JBA mids with high flow cats so I purchased them too. After I installed everything I had the car custom tuned which put me at 452/433 to the wheels @ 5 psi of boost. Still being short of my goal I decided to get a smaller pulley, new tune of course and possibly a mild cam. When I got the pulley I took the car to a different tuner (one who had more experience tuning GTOs). Before the pulley was installed, he ran a few baseline runs. On the first run he noticed that I had knock. I don't remember at what rpm range it was at but he did show it to me on his laptop. After he made a few adjustments I was at 472/440. Then he installed the 2.7" pulley (Magnuson's is 2.8"). After 8 runs on the dyno and tuning, I ended up with 501.45 rwhp and 480.68 rwtq @ 8 psi of boost with the A/F ratio at 11.66:1... _without a cam like I thought_. At that A/F ratio there is still more room to pull out a few more horses but I rather be safe than sorry. So yes I reached my goal but at the end it cost me around $8000 which includes the tuning costs, give or take a couple hundred or so.

I wished I would have had the car dyno'd before those mods but I didn't. 
My initial dyno results with the first mods I listed was 350/350. From there I netted 151 rwhp and 131 rwtq for the cash I spent. Is that good power for the cash I spent? Who knows! But I'm sure as hell enjoying it!  

*If you set out to spend a small limited amount of money you may not be satisfied with the power results you get. And if you set a goal for high power gains you will spend a lot more than you anticipated.* 

Good luck either way :cheers


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## dustyminpin (Jun 19, 2006)

To answer a few of the skeptics questions, I copied and pasted the email Rob sent me so you all can read it and judge for yourselves. The 3800-4000 out the door jumped up to 4800 something in his actual quote so long as I supply the headers and pay an extra 300-500 dollars for a torque converter that we haven't settled on yet, which is fine with me. He said a 3500 stall would be ok, but I've been told by a few guys at work, that the stall is way too high. OK, here's what he sent me....:

Just some interesting reading for you. 

Had a 2007 Z06 stop in today we did a baseline before we tune it tomorrow.

The attached graph is my car a 2005 GTO LS2 M6 with Tigershark package (mine is 10hp lower than the 06's usually) Vs. 2007 Z06 

Enjoy

Rob


On 7/13/07, Rob Segura <[email protected]> wrote: 
Hello Dustin,

A few questions I forgot to ask.

Is this your daily driver? 

What are your overall goals for the car?

Tri Star 402 Package:

NEW GM 6.0L LS2 aluminum block
Eagle Forged Stroker crank 
Eagle Forged H-Beam connecting rods
Lunati Diamond Pistons
Clevite Hardened Race Bearings 

Assembled and balanced
$3700

For a Custom Tri Star Camshaft (Designed by Flowtech) 
Add + $450

For a SLP Double roller Timing Chain 
Add + $125

I would normaly charge at least $1000 for installation and tuning.
We'll do it for a measly $575 to put your final cost at $4850

We could also do a L92 Block 414 for an additional $400 

Items you will need if you do not already have.

Long tube headers - which can range from $1400 to $500 
K&N style Intake kit - $225+

Torque converter - $500-700

Another thing to think about is your Transmission. Some people have had great luck with their stock transmissions and have run serious power through them, others have had them start to slip once they make more than 400lbs RWTQ. 

It will help me greatly to get an Idea what you will be doing with the car and your goals with it are. 

There are several other ways we could build your car depending on what you like and what you want. 

Thanks again for your inquiry,

Rob


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## Church (Jun 5, 2007)

I would do it. In fact I was having the same problem, "Engine or FI?". Im just going to save up for a 402!


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