# ZZ3 eninge 1971 gto



## 1971greenGTO (Jan 27, 2009)

I recently took my car to a highly recommended mechanic named Sauvo (from ******'s Auto in Scottsdale, AZ) after being ripped off by Now & Then Automotive in Tempe, AZ. After pulling the engine, he showed me that the engine had not been rebuilt (by the previous shop) and that it was just cleaned up and spray painted. He offered to have the engine professionally machined at S & S Machine Shop (Mesa, AZ) and the transmission rebuilt by a trusted rebuilder. He would send the all original engine and tranny out and install it himself replacing all parts needed for around $5G's. We had talked about the option of replacing the engine with an LS1 or similar type for fuel saving, reliability, etc but at a hefty price. I spoke with him today and he has found a ZZ3 engine under 500 miles and a new tranny that came from a camero that had been wrecked. He offered to crate the OG 400 engine/350 tranny and install the ZZ3 and tranny for $6G's. Now I'm a huge fan of the original setup but am definitely interested in the modern engine swap. What is your experience with engine swaps? How's the ZZ3? Is it comparable to the LS1? Does the price sound right? Should I stick with the OG setup? Thank you for your time in advance...


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

There's nothing like schooling somebody with original Muscle!  :cheers


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

I agree. For comparable price I'd go with the period corrrect engine and transmission. Long term I would bet it will retain value better and have a much larger market if/when you decide to sell.

......... I can't help but comment on the shop that ripped you off "Now and Then".......... is it named that because "Now and Then" they do what the customer wants? It sucks that you got burnt. Hopefully it works out for you in the end.

Al T.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

I've heard of a Chevy ZZ4, but what is a ZZ3? ZZ4 would look like a small block chevy in a Pontiac.


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## crustysack (Oct 5, 2008)

6k for the motor+ trans + install, does than include ecu and wiring , new motor mounts, new tranny mount,new exhaust,new drive shaft,new fuel delivery system, thats a lot of stuff for 6 grand- if hes done it before and knows EXACTLY what has to be done it seems like a fair price but if this is his first swap into this kind of car there are bound to be issues that will arise


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## 1971greenGTO (Jan 27, 2009)

rukee - I hear that!

Al T. - I like the feel and sound of the original. It would be nice to have the modernization of the LS1's turn key style. But I have considered selling it, so come that time I'm sure it would be more valuable being a numbers matching vehicle.

jetstang - The ZZ3 is the earlier model of the ZZ4 Chevy camero engine.

crustysack - Yes Sauvo has extensive experience swapping engines. It would include the engine and tranny mounts, wiring, drive shaft, fuel system, and installation.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

The ZZ4/3 is a standard small block chevy, typical parts bolt on it, nothing special, HEI distributor, standard stuff. This is before LT-1s and LS-1s. One wire to hook up the distributor, that's it, no computers. 6K would buy a bunch of Poncho power, and you wouldn't have to swap the trans, unless you wanted to.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

1971greenGTO said:


> I recently took my car to a highly recommended mechanic named Sauvo (from ******'s Auto in Scottsdale, AZ) after being ripped off by Now & Then Automotive in Tempe, AZ. After pulling the engine, he showed me that the engine had not been rebuilt (by the previous shop) and that it was just cleaned up and spray painted. Should I stick with the OG setup? Thank you for your time in advance...


I think this shop is trying to treat you like the first shop and take advantage of you. Find someone on your side that you can trust and have them build your Pontiac. Maybe the first shops engine build was good and something went wrong, happens. 
People like that piss me off, look at the pistons, it has scoring, they didn't rebuild this, but they don't know you ran it out of oil... Last mechanic sucked theory...
A good salesman can sell Ice to Eskimo's...
ZZ4 is like 400 HP, meaning 300 BHP, current LS-3s are 400 plus BHP, so you're not going to be beating any new vettes, camaro's or GTO's with this ZZ3 motor.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

jetstang said:


> I think this shop is trying to treat you like the first shop and take advantage of you. Find someone on your side that you can trust and have them build your Pontiac. Maybe the first shops engine build was good and something went wrong, happens.
> People like that piss me off, look at the pistons, it has scoring, they didn't rebuild this, but they don't know you ran it out of oil... Last mechanic sucked theory...
> A good salesman can sell Ice to Eskimo's...
> ZZ4 is like 400 HP, meaning 300 BHP, current LS-3s are 400 plus BHP, so you're not going to be beating any new vettes, camaro's or GTO's with this ZZ3 motor.


:agree zz3 is a basic chevy 350 nothing special. zz3 345hp zz4 355hp no computer, carburated chevy small block.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

6k to have the car returned as a turn key isn't bad, but as pointed out, it's not a fuel injected, instant starting, good fuel mileage engine. It's nothing different than your original and you can have that built to out-perform the small block EASILY.

What did this Now and Then supposedly do to the engine and how much did you pay ? Are you going after them for fraud with the evidence from Sauvo or letting them continue their scam ?


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

I've seen 5.3 LS motors with MSD ignition controllers and a carb intake for $2K at the Moultry swap meet. 300 BHP motor aluminum head motor on the cheap, with a chevy trans mount I think.
MSD sells the crank trigger controller for $350ish, and Edelbrock sells the LS carb intake for $300.
I also saw a guy that bored a 5.3 to 5.7, took his sons vette 5.7 rotating assembly and stuck it in the steel block, wanted $2k turnkey.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

i havent checked this myself but i have been told salvage yard 5.3's are dirt cheap because there is little demand. they dont go bad very often so not many people replacing them.


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## gtomuscle (Dec 11, 2009)

Pontiac power all the way! Pick up the Fast fuel injection and have the ease of a modern motor (and keep the Pontiac power)


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

A properly set-up and tuned carbureted "old school" motor can be just as "turn key" and reliable as a modern computer controlled injected one. Both of my goats start at the turn of a key and are dead reliable. I've taken them cross country, and have passed many stranded motorists in newer cars along the way. Don't be fooled that you have to update to have a good running, reliable machine. I consider both my old GTO's to be turn key: you just fire them up and you're off and running!


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

gtomuscle said:


> Pontiac power all the way! Pick up the Fast fuel injection and have the ease of a modern motor (and keep the Pontiac power)


My buddy got the fast setup and has had nothing but problems with it. I guess while on the Dyno they had the control on the bench, and the rest on the motor, and didn't have a ground between the bench and stand. Burnt something up, replaced it, now it won't hold a tune. Gremlins.



geeteeohguy said:


> A properly set-up and tuned carbureted "old school" motor can be just as "turn key" and reliable as a modern computer controlled injected one. Both of my goats start at the turn of a key and are dead reliable. I've taken them cross country, and have passed many stranded motorists in newer cars along the way. Don't be fooled that you have to update to have a good running, reliable machine. I consider both my old GTO's to be turn key: you just fire them up and you're off and running!


:agreeAnd if something brakes, you can replace it with a couple bolts and $30, starter, alternator, points, coil, etc. Don't need an OBDII scanner to find out what is up.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

jetstang said:


> My buddy got the fast setup and has had nothing but problems with it. I guess while on the Dyno they had the control on the bench, and the rest on the motor, and didn't have a ground between the bench and stand. Burnt something up, replaced it, now it won't hold a tune. Gremlins.
> 
> 
> 
> *:agreeAnd if something brakes, you can replace it with a couple bolts and $30, starter, alternator, points, coil, etc. Don't need an OBDII scanner to find out what is up.*


 Plus, I can get two full sized guys under my hood working with a 12 pack and tools!!
Try that with a new GTO! :willy::seeya


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

i think i saw in the shop manual where they recomend the 12 pack.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Back on the subject:
A ZZ3 350 doesn't produce 500 Ft. Lbs of torque stock like a 455 Pontiac does. Torque is what you feel in your butt, HP is top end.

MOPAR- Move over, Pontiac Approaching Rapidly!!


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## y2kjammer (Dec 18, 2009)

Two full sized guys and a 12 pack? Must be a minor quick fix. My guys cost me way more in beer than I spend in parts. lol


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

66tempestGT said:


> i think i saw in the shop manual where they recomend the* 24* pack.


:cheers


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## hookemdevils22 (Mar 27, 2010)

if you've got the time and some basic tools, why not install the engine/trans combo yourself? it wouldn't take but a weekend. even the LS motors can be bolted in with the right mounts and a stand-alone harness.

hell, i'm in chandler, so i'd help ya when i finish the vintage air/isis rewire on my '66.


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

For $6K I can build a streetable 500hp Pontiac and have money left over for things like tires. No way in hell would I ever spend that much on a chevy with only 345hp. Then again all I need to farm out is machine work on the block and crank. If you are having someone do everything for you then I would assume it would cost more and you would get much less from the deal.


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## heyman (Jan 15, 2010)

crustysack said:


> 6k for the motor+ trans + install, does than include ecu and wiring , new motor mounts, new tranny mount,new exhaust,new drive shaft,new fuel delivery system, thats a lot of stuff for 6 grand- if hes done it before and knows EXACTLY what has to be done it seems like a fair price but if this is his first swap into this kind of car there are bound to be issues that will arise


no no no, 6k for a ZZ3 motor, ZZ4 was the motor after the ZZ3, and after the ZZ crate motor before that, no computor needed, SIMPLE swap, even in a Pontiac, very simple. Have a ZZ3 in a car I'm driving now, 350, aluminium heads, 345 HP, Good simple street motor. 6k a little high. If it's a quality built on the original engine and trans, 5k sounds like a better deal all around


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