# My 1967 GTO - Questions



## Michaellopezzz (Apr 14, 2014)

Okay so I don't really know where to post this so my apologies in advance. However, I have multiple questions regarding the 67 GTO my dad and I are working on. 

First off, we really are interested in converting to manual. I know it may not be a "by the book" restoration, but it is what we want and the car is not intended for future resale - we are planning to keep it in the family. Does anyone have experience with a manual conversion? Or if someone directs me in the right direction to get started it would be greatly appreciated.

Also, it this is really strange but for some reason the body panels have Tempest type quarter panels on them. It's strange because both title and VIN verify that it is a GTO. Could this have been a mistake? I would like opinions as far as what to do with them, its very strange. I am going to try to post pictures below, lets see if it works.

These aren't the best pics but here's what we have. There is a lot of work to be done; like the Rally II's? We bought them last month at the swap meet :thumbsup:


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Uh oh.....better post up the VIN of that "GTO". :eek2:

GTO's were never made with the Tempest quarters. Is it possible your car was "clipped"?


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## younggto (Nov 22, 2013)

He said the VIN states it is a GTO so it's a 242 car; I would like to see pictures of the rivets affixing the data and VIN plates...


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## Michaellopezzz (Apr 14, 2014)

ALKYGTO said:


> Uh oh.....better post up the VIN of that "GTO". :eek2:
> 
> GTO's were never made with the Tempest quarters. Is it possible your car was "clipped"?


What do you mean by "clipped"? I'm new to everything. Here's a pic of the VIN - the identification plates under the hood are not there but it's an old car so this is reasonable, no? The title is clear; my grandfather has had it for years so I don't know what it could be 




I am posting two in different light to make it easiest to read


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## pjw1967 (Mar 10, 2014)

Hard to tell from the photos whether or not there are backup lights built into the lower part of the bumper. See photo of my '67. If no lights in the bumper, then it is not a '67 GTO bumper.


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## younggto (Nov 22, 2013)

The rivets don't look like the original rosetts (sp) to me. Would you mind posting a pic of the data plate from the firewall?


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## Michaellopezzz (Apr 14, 2014)

Just went outside to take some better pics.... Please don't judge the condition, it's a piece of work lol


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## Michaellopezzz (Apr 14, 2014)

younggto said:


> The rivets don't look like the original rosetts (sp) to me. Would you mind posting a pic of the data plate from the firewall?
> 
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


That's what I was referring to earlier; the data plate is not there. But everything else seems to be authentic :banghead:


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

No lights in bumper and some very suspicious rivets.......

What I meant by "clipped" was it appears your car is a Tempest with a GTO front clip. The tail panel looks correct for a GTO though, Tempest was very different.


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## Michaellopezzz (Apr 14, 2014)

ALKYGTO said:


> No lights in bumper and some very suspicious rivets.......
> 
> What I meant by "clipped" was it appears your car is a Tempest with a GTO front clip. The tail panel looks correct for a GTO though, Tempest was very different.


Oh I understand the bumper lights now, isn't this the weirdest thing? Any advice as far as what I should do? This is probably the mutt of all Pontiacs lol


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## Michaellopezzz (Apr 14, 2014)

*By the way*
I do not know for certain what kind of rear quarter panels these are, I actually meant LeMans..... However this seems to be the only blip in the car besides the rivets you have all mentioned. Thanks for the help everyone, I really appreciate it


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## younggto (Nov 22, 2013)

There are partial VIN numbers stamped on various body panels (front fenders I believe) that could be used to at least determine if they came from the GTO or not. The full VIN is stamped on the rear drivers side frame rail; but you need to remove the body as it is resides on the top. Also, you might be able to reach you hand up behind the header panel to see if the holes for the P O N T I A C lettering have been welded up. Do you have the PHS? If not, get it and see if the options even somewhat match up. 


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## pjw1967 (Mar 10, 2014)

Check out your engine code. Here are 2 lists. One is for all Pontiac engine codes, and the other is just '67 Goats. You're looking for the 2 letter code. 
http://www.teufert.net/pontiac/engcodes.htm
1967 Pontiac GTO Production Figures and Specifications
https://www.google.com/search?q=pon...9tBkqSoBp2FgegJ&ved=0CEAQ7Ak&biw=1184&bih=548


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

Holy crap! Just by the one pic of the VIN tag, I'd say it is obvious that the tag has been swapped. The tell tale signs are the scratches around the upper rivet (like someone scratched it removing it from the donor car), and the rivets themselves. Those don't look right and they are not flat to the VIN tag. That was a rush job by someone who did not know what they were doing. 

You need to see if you can find the frame #. As was mentioned, it should be on top of the left rail just behind the door. You should be able to see it with a light and a small mirror. Be prepared! I'm betting it doesn't match the VIN on your door post. If you find that the numbers DON'T match, you'll need to decide how you want to proceed. The right thing to do will be to run the frame number through your motor vehicle department (or Police department) and be prepared that it may be stolen.

The other things is that the tail panel is in primer. Gee, I wonder why... Maybe because it was changed and so was the deck lid.

Sorry, but it's not a mutt. It's a fraud! I hope you didn't pay too much and that you know where to find the seller, so you can give him/her up to the authorities.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I have to back Chucka on this one. Have run into this many times over the past 30+ years. What we have here is a Tempest/LeMans that has had a GTO front grille and hood installed, as well as a tailpanel. And the VIN tag. The_ real_ VIN for the car might be findable on the top of the LS frame rail around the LR wheel well area. I saw many wrecking yard GTO's in the early/mid '80's that had had the VIN and trim tags removed. These cars have been cloned a long time now. The fact that the car has vents on both quarter panels and a non- GTO rear bumper (Tempest/Lemans parts) bears this out. Very unlikely a real GTO would be repaired back in the day if it needed BOTH rear 1/4 panels and if that expense was gone to, the vents would have been filled in.


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## Michaellopezzz (Apr 14, 2014)

chuckha62 said:


> Holy crap! Just by the one pic of the VIN tag, I'd say it is obvious that the tag has been swapped. The tell tale signs are the scratches around the upper rivet (like someone scratched it removing it from the donor car), and the rivets themselves. Those don't look right and they are not flat to the VIN tag. That was a rush job by someone who did not know what they were doing.
> 
> You need to see if you can find the frame #. As was mentioned, it should be on top of the left rail just behind the door. You should be able to see it with a light and a small mirror. Be prepared! I'm betting it doesn't match the VIN on your door post. If you find that the numbers DON'T match, you'll need to decide how you want to proceed. The right thing to do will be to run the frame number through your motor vehicle department (or Police department) and be prepared that it may be stolen.
> 
> ...


Well the car was not stolen, it was passed down to me from my grandfather. He bought it from my uncle; and the title is clean and clear. I didn't really pay anything for it, and it's been in his garage for 20+ years. I don't think I have interests in accusing my grandfather of being a thief that's just my preference.


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## Michaellopezzz (Apr 14, 2014)

geeteeohguy said:


> I have to back Chucka on this one. Have run into this many times over the past 30+ years. What we have here is a Tempest/LeMans that has had a GTO front grille and hood installed, as well as a tailpanel. And the VIN tag. The_ real_ VIN for the car might be findable on the top of the LS frame rail around the LR wheel well area. I saw many wrecking yard GTO's in the early/mid '80's that had had the VIN and trim tags removed. These cars have been cloned a long time now. The fact that the car has vents on both quarter panels and a non- GTO rear bumper (Tempest/Lemans parts) bears this out. Very unlikely a real GTO would be repaired back in the day if it needed BOTH rear 1/4 panels and if that expense was gone to, the vents would have been filled in.


Any suggestions as far as what to do? I can't just trash it....


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Yes. It being in the family for decades is a huge plus. Does it in fact have a GTO drivetrain? GTO engine? Trans? Can you research it and find out what happened to the car? For a GTO to get damaged enough to need a whole rear section 30 years ago would have been a total for sure...the car normally would not have been fixed. What I would do first is FIND THAT FRAME NUMBER. Is your uncle still around? I would NOT 'trash' this car...whatever it actually IS, it's still a cool '67 A-body, and worthy of fixing, especially since it's a family car.


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## maktope (May 22, 2013)

A few years back there was a story on can about a man from San fran who had his vetted stolen in 65 or 66. US customs found the car in a container getting loaded on a ship. All vino matched owner paid to restore the car bought from a college friend. Upon inspection the frame number didn't match man in San fran got a restored car back. Not saying your grandfather or uncle are in the wrong. But unless your uncle bought it new, there is only one way to find out if some one screwed him over with a "deal"


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## maktope (May 22, 2013)

Auto correct is a pain. On cnn and a vette


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## Michaellopezzz (Apr 14, 2014)

geeteeohguy said:


> Yes. It being in the family for decades is a huge plus. Does it in fact have a GTO drivetrain? GTO engine? Trans? Can you research it and find out what happened to the car? For a GTO to get damaged enough to need a whole rear section 30 years ago would have been a total for sure...the car normally would not have been fixed. What I would do first is FIND THAT FRAME NUMBER. Is your uncle still around? I would NOT 'trash' this car...whatever it actually IS, it's still a cool '67 A-body, and worthy of fixing, especially since it's a family car.


I have not found the frame number yet, but heres a picture of the engine code. It appears to say "XX" if my eyes do not deceive me, lol what a mess! I'm sure that the trans is a Turbo-Hydramatic 400 as we have looked at it and replaced the transmission gasket.
Maybe I should just order a crate engine and think of it as simply a custom "something" A-body and call it a day. Lol


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## Michaellopezzz (Apr 14, 2014)

However, now that I'm thinking, could it be that the engine was swapped? The carburetor that was on it was a 1971 year according to the casting number, if I remember correctly. Maybe they just had the engine swapped or something? This is such a mess and I appreciate everyone's patience with me


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Well, an XX is a 400 engine, and the XX coded blocks were produced from '69 thru '73. So it's a good block. Not a late, cheesy one. You didn't buy the car or pay big bucks for it, so you are still way ahead of the game. To find the year of the block, you can look for the date code by the distributor hole in the block. But it doesn't really matter that much, as it's not a '67 GTO engine. I suspect you have a 'hodge-podge' car that was done for fun a long time back. It can still be built into a very nice car, IMO. _Impossible _to beat the body style of a '66-'67 A-Body Pontiac, IMO!!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I have to agree with most all the comments -you have a 1967 Lemans that someone has removed the firewall ID plate and added a poorly riveted GTO vin number on it. The XX engine code is for the 1970-1971 8.2 compression 265 HP 400CI 2 barrel carb/Automatic. Look at the center exhaust port for a 2-digit number. 11 is 1970. 99 is 1971.
There is no XX engine code for 1972, BUT the XX code appears again in 1973 as an 8.0 compression 230 HP 400CI Quadrajet 4 barrel carb/Automatic. The 2-digit code on exhaust port should be 4X. The Carb number for the Q-jet is listed as 7043264 0r 7043266.

You can also get date codes off the transmission. Look at the pan bolt pattern & shape from underneath and you will be able to identify it as a TH-400 or TH-350.

Very easy to clone a GTO with add on pieces from a GTO. The rear tail light panel can be bought and installed fairly easily. I had to replace the rotted out one on my brother's '67 some 25 years ago. Look closely at your wiring and the plugs. Does it look like a few extra wires or an extra plug might be there? Lemans would have had three light sockets with the center socket for the back-up lights in the lenses -no back up lights in the rear bumper. Back up light wires appear they may have been spliced? Easy enough to swap out and re-wire as well.

It would seem that locating and getting the frame vin numbers would answer a few questions. If you got the PHS factory documents for the GTO vin number you do have, it may shed some light on the original options ordered on that car and you may be able to compare a few things -the rear axle code could be one of these as well.

Word of caution. Did a quick search on the internet and there is much information about swapping vin numbers from one car to another -basically it is illegal and could cause legal issues. You could inquire to find out if the GTO vin vehicle had been stolen -and not by your grandfather either. I am sure he bought it in good faith. It could have also been a Lemans stolen and disguised as a GTO to cover it up. I only see a real issue if you were to re-sell the car, but since you are not looking to do that, I would assume the previous title signed over to you would work, unless your state requires a safety inspection. Cars can be given new vin numbers by the state you reside if needed. This is done with old hot rods or fiberglass kit builds. If you did get the vin numbers off the frame and it verified it as a Lemans, then I might go about legally changing the paper work over through the state to reflect this. Then you won't have to worry about investing money into your project only to get the worst news that it is hot and the original owner gets his car back with all the work you may have put into it -this can and does happen. I recently heard of a Chevelle story that this happened with.

What do you do? ENJOY the car for what it is to you and your family. If you can identify it, then do so. If not, then go with what is on the title & tell people that when the rusty quarters were replaced, they didn't make new replacement quarters and your grandfather bought a set of mint Lemans quarters and liked them better, and had them installed. It's called personalizing. Its all about enjoying and driving the car. But am still concerned over over the legal issues here -and not trying to discourage you either. Car has a lot of potential.


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## pjw1967 (Mar 10, 2014)

_Impossible _to beat the body style of a '66-'67 A-Body Pontiac, IMO!![/QUOTE]

Amen.....


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

PontiacJim said:


> What do you do? ENJOY the car for what it is to you and your family. If you can identify it, then do so. * If not, then go with what is on the title & tell people that when the rusty quarters were replaced, they didn't make new replacement quarters and your grandfather bought a set of mint Lemans quarters and liked them better, and had them installed.* It's called personalizing. Its all about enjoying and driving the car. But am still concerned over over the legal issues here -and not trying to discourage you either. Car has a lot of potential.










Gotta disagree with you on this Jim.....I believe this would be fraud, and since he has already posted all this information on the web I believe he would face serious repercussions if he tried to foist this faux GTO on a potential buyer.


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## Michaellopezzz (Apr 14, 2014)

Don't worry not trying to sell it, I would hate for someone to go through all this trouble like I did haha but I might tell people that if we fix it up and take it to a car show


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## Michaellopezzz (Apr 14, 2014)

Thanks PontiacJim, a lot of wise and helpful words that you have given. Much appreciated!


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

I'm glad to hear you have so much history with the car. For some reason I was thinking that you had just purchased it and had been taken. 

If the car could talk, eh? It would be nice to know what it's been through and what it has seen.

Let us know what you find. 

Chuck


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

ALKYGTO said:


> Gotta disagree with you on this Jim.....I believe this would be fraud, and since he has already posted all this information on the web I believe he would face serious repercussions if he tried to foist this faux GTO on a potential buyer.


No need to disagree, I AGREE. This is why I mentioned options in trying to get the car vin squared away through the DMV even if it required a vin provided by the state as done with old hot rod builds or new constructed fiberglass kits. It could turn out just fine, or become a can of worms. But ultimately it will be the decision of Michaellopezzz -I'm not judging here. 

In today's age, it still may be possible to pass on a well done clone as a GTO, but it would seem most car enthusiasts are much more informed and aware of what things to look for and the missing cowl tag would probably throw up a red flag for 98% of buyers wanting a true GTO, with the vin tag mostly likely being caught as well. Then, with today's computerized DMV - nationwide -, to include insurance data, if that vin number was "hot", it would most likely show up IF it was reported or submitted.

I don't know how far back "stolen cars" go back, but I mentioned the Chevelle story I recently heard told to me from a very solid person. His buddy bought a mint 1970 SS for $18,000. Went to register it and seemed the vin did not match the title by one digit so DMV did a little deeper search. The car was stolen 12 years earlier and the guy had to give up the car to the former owner and was out $18,000 with no means to collect it back. :mad2:

It is of course possible that at some point, some one could have owned a 1967 GTO that was hit so hard in the rear, that it was totaled out. A skilled person, or even a body shop, could have purchased a Lemans and swapped all the good front sheet metal over to the body, added the tail light panel, bumper, and other pieces. Then removed the vin tag and affixed it to the Lemans. "Way back when," my guess is that nobody really would have cared to much about it including DMV and they may have never known as the title ( if the car had one - CT did not have titles until 1970; Rhode Island does not require a title for cars older than 2000) would have still shown the car as a GTO and matched to the vin number - which was never verified when you went to get the car registered and put tags/plates on it. Gotta remember, these cars back then were not the collector item as they are today -they were just fast old worn out cars well past their prime. So making one car from 2 is quite feasible. Ditching the cowl tag would mask the caper, but it is only the vin that is really required on the car. Never ever had a cop or any other law official look at my cowl tag. Never had them look at the vin number either. I simply handed them a hand written bill of sale (previous owner's or usually mine at a reduced sale price to save on taxes :wink2, gave them the sales tax money, paid my fees, got my tags/plates, and off I went. Got the registration card in the mail a little later. Insurance was not mandatory back then, but I had it. When stopped by a cop, they match the registration card to the tag/plate number (which could have been owned by someone else, ie I borrowed the car), and they check your license. Even all the times I got caught with no registration or fake plates, they never looked at the vin number to see if I had stolen it. My cars never were nice enough to fall into the category of "might be stolen." :nonod: I just got the big ticket with an appearance date in court. :cryin:

This said, we have to turn the clock back a bit and recall when the DMV, the law enforcement system, and registration processes were different and an old car was just that, and with little value for the most part. Fast forward to today, things are much different, legal issues much tighter, old cars worth way more, and buyers more informed. And cloning any car to represent something it is not and selling it as such because the "new price" can become astronomically profitable, should not be condoned and is fraud. But like anything else, buyer beware, and do the homework before the purchase no matter how good a deal it seems at the moment.


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