# Judge value



## Buguy (17 d ago)

Hey guys i wanted to get some opinions. I have a 70 judge and i am considering trying to trade it for something that i can do a pro touring build on. The car is a true OO car but missing original engine and trans. It is not restored, but was painted once before i got it in 1986. There is a tiny bit of rust behind the front wheel arches and some repair done on the top of the rear arches. Floors and trunk are mint. It is a 4 speed car but as i said, no engine or trans. Does have the hood tach. Sandlewood interior of it makes any difference. Any ideas on the value?


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## original orbit (Nov 10, 2008)

Dang, I wanted an OO for so long. Just bought one running and driving with matching numbers, but wrong color.

Where are you located?

I know of one very recent sale of an original OO car I once owned, and the seller sold it, NOM, very few options, with several things added (disc brakes, hood tach, 4 speed). Nice repaint but floors were original and not quite mint.

Based on your description it needs body work and probably a repaint, as well as engine and trans., likely suspension work, and window seals, a lot of small stuff. Am I right? Would be a great project and I bet you could get near 40k for it. To me that would be the upper limit. Wish I had the space and time I would consider selling what I just acquired, although I am a fan of matching numbers.

You didn't say which engine it came with, which may make a difference to some, but now that it is gone, not to me.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Yes it definitely needs restored. Although the car is very nice. All the trim etc is in great condition. Before i pulled the door panels, they closed with a nice thud. Unfortunately the dash pad is cracked too though. I don't remember the mileage, but it seems like it was super low. My dad got it for me from someone he knew when i was a kid and told me it was mostly a drag car. 
This is difficult for me because i work at a restoration shop, but i don't know if i have the time or will to do a full resto on off hours. It would be an easy one to do though compared to what we do most of the time. If i don't find a suitable trade, i guess i will just have to bite the bullet and get to it. I also have a 69 Hurst SC/Rambler to do. It is in much worse condition and tough to find parts for. I've been seeing restored non matching Judges going from 60-80k.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Based on the description, it may fetch around $10K or so. Probably a bit less. There's just too much missing and it'll never be worth what a numbers matching car would be. Honestly, it's going to cost someone $80k to build this into a car that's worth 50.

I do wish you luck.


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## original orbit (Nov 10, 2008)

There you go... I'm going to guess my original view was overly optimistic - probably best case scenario. What does a powertrain cost? Then you have some interior issues which now you're talking dash pad and door panels. Hard to say without more info. Would love to see it.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

original orbit said:


> There you go... I'm going to guess my original view was overly optimistic - probably best case scenario. What does a powertrain cost? Then you have some interior issues which now you're talking dash pad and door panels. Hard to say without more info. Would love to see it.


Agree with @Jared : it's a very cool car, but the high value would come from it being original and restored/ clean survivor. And that's going to cost at least $30k, if you do it yourself, and a shit load of time... or double that if you pay someone to do it... only to then have a non numbers matching Judge, which would only hold value in street cred, but not to a collector with big bucks.

I't a very desirable car that will sell quick, though


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I found this last night. And another one fairly close to it. Obviously they were restored, but it shows what NOM is doing at the moment. 








1970 Pontiac GTO Judge Ram Air III


Bid for the chance to own a 1970 Pontiac GTO Judge Ram Air III at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #82,437.




bringatrailer.com


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I tried posting a couple pictures, but it doesn't seem to be working. Guess i need to read up on how to do it here.


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## 66COUPE (Jul 23, 2021)

Buguy said:


> I tried posting a couple pictures, but it doesn't seem to be working. Guess i need to read up on how to do it here.


Scroll up to the icon left of the camera icon and a box will appear , press on it and add from your photos.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I tried that but it says there is a error. I assume the picture is too large and i don't have a way to edit that on my phone.


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## original orbit (Nov 10, 2008)

Agree fully with armyadarkness: Getting any unrestored car to this level will be much more than 30k. That's a strong number for NOM, and is a result of the extreme quality of upgrades and condition. The one I recently watch sell on the private market went for 59k and was more closely fitting the description here, but had good paint and a good NOM motor. Otherwise only mechanically restored. That's where I was seeing a max of 40k but even that is a bit of a stretch.









1970 Pontiac GTO Judge Ram Air III


Bid for the chance to own a 1970 Pontiac GTO Judge Ram Air III at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #82,437.




bringatrailer.com


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Makes sense. Looks like i will be doing a restoration on it! I can't let it go for anywhere near 10k. 
So the next question is, does it matter much what engine i put in it since it won't be original either way?


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## Drewm (Jul 27, 2021)

Buguy said:


> Makes sense. Looks like i will be doing a restoration on it! I can't let it go for anywhere near 10k.
> So the next question is, does it matter much what engine i put in it since it won't be original either way?


Just my opinion here, but a period correct Pontiac motor would be best. It's your car and you can do what your want, but I think most Pontiac guys would agree that a car like that needs to be powered by a Pontiac motor.


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## original orbit (Nov 10, 2008)

The one I was referring to had a nice 67 GTO motor. Period correct. Do the best you can to re-create.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Oh definitely will be Pontiac powered. Just wasn't sure if it was worth while to get a RAIII or not. Really was hoping it didn't make much difference. I imagine those bring a pretty penny.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Dang i found a WS RAIII for sale locally. He says it's rebuilt and not ran, but it has a performer intake, and clearly some burn on the paint above the exhaust on the heads. I've never heard of someone rebuilding heads without hot tanking them. That would take the paint off, so I'm hesitant to even bother looking. Asking 5k.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Engine choice on a NOM car really depends on the buyer, if your goal is to sell. As others have said, a Pontiac engine would be preferred but some of the LS swap cars are pulling real numbers now too. My personal choice on this would be to go with a higher HP build than what would have been in the car to begin with. Something along the lines of a stroker engine may help bump your sales value a bit. Fun thing about Pontiac engines is you make make them look stock, or close to stock, even when they're way up on power.

That BaT car is beautiful but kind of proves both of our points. Yes, there is a chance to get a very high price for a NOM car. While that car did pull higher than normal for a NOM car, it also had to be a six figure build to get it to that level. I'm still betting that whoever built that car lost some serious money on it. I'm not trying to discourage you by any means. Project cars are a tough gig, especially when its a car that's high dollar when restored but missing the key pieces that made it special when it was a whole car.


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## 1970BurgundyJudge (8 mo ago)

$5k is a deal on a 70 WS ram air III if it checks out. The essence of a 70 Judge is the appearance and ram air III so if you can get a ram air III that would be the way to go. Its like a 69 Z/28 with a 350 in it. While the car is a Z/28, it was the 302 that really made a Z/28 a Z/28.


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

If the RA III runs I would grab it and a Muncie get it running. More people will buy a running car they can improve than a staring a a full restoration project, Beyond that I think your ROI diminishes.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I guess i should be honest with myself about the intention with the car in the end. I think for me personally, if i do the car, I'm going to keep it. I've had the car since 1985. I'd love to have matching numbers, but i don't, so it will never be. I just don't think i could bring myself to LS a real OO judge, even though that is what i would want. Just like I'd want to tub it for some fat 325 rear tires, but i just cant! That's why i thought maybe i would trade it for a GTO, or even a super nice lemans. Since i don't want to give it away, and i can't bring myself to pro tour it, that leaves me little choice.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Also for me, since i work at a resto shop, the cost will be power train, interior, dash, fuel and brake lines, and maybe harness. There will be other misc stuff, but the cost won't be crazy, but the 2 years or whatever of my life will be. I'm about to finish a Harley build i started a few months ago, so i will probably pull the judge out of the trailer and get started on it in the next couple weeks. PHS should be here in a couple days too.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Good luck my friend. You may be in a unique situation where you don't wind up up-side-down in this project. Most of us on here are in that position, me included. Pontiacs are just very expensive to build which is why there are way more GTOs left than LeMans and Tempests left. My car is a NOM LeMans Sport that I was 2X value deep into until the prices went up a couple years ago. I'd still lose if I sold, but not by near as much as I would have before the prices went berserk.


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

You say you wont have much in it but have you priced your time? If had a OO Judge I dont think I could let go. Bad thing my other cars are spoken for by my kids so I could trade for one if I wanted. I too wanted to do a LS swap now it looks like next candidate will be a rambler. Something kind of raw looking.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

If it were me, I'd get the PHS on the car and then build it to the PHS. Base, Ram air, whatever. I would try to get a date coded or close 400 Pontiac and build up from there. I would not bother with numbers matching carb, distributor, alternator, etc on a NOM car. Way too much money for not much return. Just a solid, all Pontiac period correct 400 and Muncie would be just fine. Even as the car is, it's a Judge in the preferred color for that year. That brings the price as a core builder car up considerably from a base GTO. IMO, even needing what it needs, the 10k estimate is about 10k too low. If you can do most of the work, you can have a nice driver worth 50-70k and not be upside down. I remember when these cars in decent shape were 4k, but I preferred the first gen GTO's at half that price at the time. (35+ years ago)


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Thank you all for your replies. I personally agree that the car, even in its state and missing drivetrain, is worth much more than 10k. I sold an ok 65 Tempest a few years ago for more than that with a 455. My time is valuable for sure, but not to sound bad, but I'm super good at body and paint, so i have that in the bag. It's going to be the drive train that will drive me nuts. I'm going to talk to the guy with the rebuilt WS tomorrow, but i can't say i have ruled out an LS and T56.
Hey 67vent, i also have a 69 Hurst SC/Rambler, so unfortunately, it is in the same boat. 1500 made so pro touring that is kind of out too. It's much more rough than the judge, and way harder to get parts for.


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Buguy said:


> Makes sense. Looks like i will be doing a restoration on it! I can't let it go for anywhere near 10k.
> So the next question is, does it matter much what engine i put in it since it won't be original either way?


These cars were muscle cars in their day....some were babied while others were dogged and blown up !!!! The commentators on Barrett Jackson auctions have discussed this issue. And they said personally for themselves that a matching #'s muscle car are the most desired but to them it didn't matter a whole lot because of the fact that muscle cars were built to be abused (burnouts drag racing and such and that many were blown up )Matching #'s cars are a rich man's game in my opinion. Sure it would be nice to own a matching #'s muscle car but at what price? I bought a 70 judge out of a salvage yard in 1980 for $120.00 ! It was a hot dog (wiring harness fire) and had been stripped of it's engine/tranny along with the shifter l, endura bumper, bucket seats, rear spoiler, left front fender, rotors, calipers, wheels. The windshield was toast as well as the dash, console,carpet but original headliner and door panels are still in car today. Threads have rotted at the seams but door panel are still in good shape. Long story short....Me and that car have had a long life together and was in a coma for 30 yrs while my wife and I raised 3 kids. It is back on the road and I still get in that accelerator from time to time. Matching #'s ? It doesn't bother me that much.


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## Duff (Jan 12, 2020)

*geeteeohguy gave some excellent advice, nix on the LS swap.*


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

An LS swap is about the ONLY move you could make to severely de-value the car. It would be worth much more to a collector if it had a Pontiac 326 with a 2bbl in it. At least it could be still considered a Judge and be upgraded to a 400 or 455 or whatever. Putting an LS engine it it would be like pulling the panhead twin out of a Harley and putting in a 'superior' electric motor. LS engines are cheap, powerful, and durable. They also sound like crap and have no soul.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Buguy said:


> Makes sense. Looks like i will be doing a restoration on it! I can't let it go for anywhere near 10k.
> So the next question is, does it matter much what engine i put in it since it won't be original either way?


When you see the real high-dollar cars sell on Barret Jackson, it's always with the original engine... although, as I recall, the highest ever selling car there, was a Mopar without the original engine, but it DID have the period correct/ proper date code. 

You can pull that off with a Mopar, because most were super rare... I would say that a Pontiac would be quite a bit harder.

So... like I said earlier, it's all about who you wish to appeal to: 

A Judge with a date coded engine will appeal to a collector, and they have the most money. 
A Judge with _any_ Pontiac engine, will appeal to a GTO guy, but he has a lot less money.
A Judge without anything original, will appeal to every hot rodder, and they all have no money.
So you should build your car based on who you wish to sell to/ how much you want for it... but to put things into perspective, expect to pay $20,000 for a date coded engine for that car vs. $8,000 for any rebuilt Pontiac engine.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Buguy said:


> Just wasn't sure if it was worth while to get a RAIII or not. Really was hoping it didn't make much difference.


It totally DOES make a difference. Mopar collectors want Hemi's, Pontiac collectors want Ram Airs. 

Trust me... I get a *ton* of compliments on my 67, but without the HO option, in collector world, it might as well be the Brady Bunch station wagon.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Buguy said:


> Dang i found a WS RAIII for sale locally. He says it's rebuilt and not ran, but it has a performer intake, and clearly some burn on the paint above the exhaust on the heads. I've never heard of someone rebuilding heads without hot tanking them. That would take the paint off, so I'm hesitant to even bother looking. Asking 5k.


Sounds like typical craigslist BS, to me. I would want full documentation on the rebuild, and verify the engine codes.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I guess for me, if i do anything to it, then i will just keep it. I'd like to trade it for a regular gto that wouldn't hurt as bad to build a pro-touring car out of. If i can't do that, i will just build it and keep it.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Agreed. He has no paperwork and wants to direct me to the builder. That doesn't work for me. I considered asking if he would let me open it up for a look, but that doesn't give me much info on the machine work. 
It is local so i could verify the codes. Or at least what's stamped on it.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

At the end of the day, on a RA engine, the heads are where the value is. That may not be what the block code tells you, but that's the reality.

To a GTO guy, each year has its own nuances. You want to see a six pack on 64-66, you want to see 670 heads and a Hurst on a 67, you want to see oval ports on a Judge. Once you take those things away, it's like a hot body on an ugly chick... you'd still do her, but it's just not as much fun anymore


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## 1970BurgundyJudge (8 mo ago)

In this month's The Legend magazine from GTOAA there is a 70 orbit orange Judge for sale, in need of full restoration with a non original WS for $35,000. That is what one seller thinks a car like that is worth. If and when it sells then we have market evidence to value Judges similar to that one.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Nice. I will have to try to keep an eye out for that. 
I believe the heads on that ram air engine locally are #48.


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## 1970BurgundyJudge (8 mo ago)

70 Judge ram air III heads are #12. I think #48 are for 69s.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

It is listed as a 69.


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## 1970BurgundyJudge (8 mo ago)

That makes sense. It should be a 9792506 casting rather than a 3799914.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Yeah. Might not be worth it since its a 69. I suppose the block code is the same, but if your poking your head that far down your going to know with a little more looking it doesn't belong.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

It also says it's out of a 69 firebird.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Buguy said:


> I guess for me, if i do anything to it, then i will just keep it. I'd like to trade it for a regular gto that wouldn't hurt as bad to build a pro-touring car out of. If i can't do that, i will just build it and keep it.


How old are you? Just asking because I'm always surprised that younger people think a car has to have an LS engine and 20 inch wheels to be reliable enough to go anywhere. 
I've driven my all original, unrestored '67 GTO for over 130,000 miles and take it on 1000 mile road trips routinely without any issues at all. Believe it or not, by the 1960's, cars were very reliable and comfortable. I've driven cars from 1915--1967 since 1970...and licensed since 1976. What's really cool is that in my stock GTO I get to pass broken down pro touring resto-mods parked on the side of the road with mechanical failures due to poor engineering or poor quality parts. They can't believe I'm rolling on 14 inch wheels with drum brakes. I must me a magician. LOL...


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I'm 52! I work at a resto shop and the LS cars always start and run hard. The carb stuff not so much. The cars here sit a lot too. I'm an old school guy, but i have to admit the LS is a great design. They are cheap, available, and reliable. I fired up a camaro earlier with a supercharged LS and it sounds so wicked. Too bad they are so damn ugly?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

IMO, there's a bit more to it than meets the eye.

Generically, okay, I could argue that an LS engine is 30% more reliable than a 60's Pontiac engine... however, I would only attempt to do that if the LS engine was in it's original vehicle... a Silverado, Camaro, etc.

Once you put one in a 60's Pontiac, it instantly becomes a "who knows what", wiring nightmare. Lord knows what the installer did to "make it run", and when any one of the now 200 connections fails, good luck trouble shooting it on the side of the road.

I love the LS platform, but I think that it's reliability is largely based on the vehicle as a whole... that's not the case with a 60's V8... which can be screwed to a wooden pallet and run for 100 years, too.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Maybe. Seems to me the roller cam and efi make a huge difference. I bet having them hooked to an overdrive trans helps a lot too. They aren't running down the interstate at 6000 rpm like the old cars did for years. Can't argue with the amount of miles people get out of the LS though. For me personally, they are just simply ugly to look at. 
Wiring is no biggy anymore. Plenty of plug and play set ups out there.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Buguy said:


> Seems to me the roller cam and efi make a huge difference. I bet having them hooked to an overdrive trans helps a lot too


Of course, it's very subjective. You won't get much love for an LS, in this forum, but a few of us do love them, myself included.

That being said, my numbers matching, 67, has a full roller, Ram Air engine... which is to say that the original 400 has a Ram Air cam with roller lifters and rockers. And for whatever it's worth, it also has a Tremec 5 speed.

As for fuel injection, like I said in my original post, sure, EFI in a 2010 Camaro is super reliable... but when Joeys Used Car emporium takes that engine and EFI out of the Camaro, and installs it into a 70 GTO, using scotch locks and butt splice connectors, now you have hundreds of potential failure points, and NO wiring schematic.

But, Im not trying to sell anyone on this. Im just saying that: if I had to drive across country in a car that someone had retrofitted EFI into, or a carb car, I'd take the carb in a second! Yes, the milage would be worse, yes you might flood it on start up, but your chances for a successful roadside repair to a carb, are likely 20 times better than the EFI, which is a guaranteed tow.

And you might be thinking... Yeah if the EFI was retroed by a backyard/ chop shop, maybe, but not if it's a new Fast, Holley, or Edelbrock". Well I can tell you, this forum is loaded with guys who put those on their GTO's, and had failures right out of the box, which required costly returns, repairs, and delays. Many of the Holley EFI guys, took them right back off and put a carb on.

Look at it this way; 

Which is better?
Which would you rather depend on?


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

armyadarkness said:


> I love the LS platform, but I think that it's reliability is largely based on the vehicle as a whole... that's not the case with a 60's V8... which can be screwed to a wooden pallet and run for 100 years, too.


 Three things make engines unreliable plastics, electronics ( I include points and condenser) and stumps. my longest running engine was gen 1 small block flat tappet. I sold it running after putting 300K in 10 years.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I fully understand that. I put a turbo, efi, air to water intercooler, wheel speed sensors, and flex fuel with e85 on my little 65 VW beetle. I for sure know the troubles that come from it. I pretty much pieced it together and used Megasquirt do it yourself ecu.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

67ventwindow said:


> Three things make engines unreliable plastics, electronics ( I include points and condenser) and stumps. my longest running engine was gen 1 small block flat tappet. I sold it running after putting 300K in 10 years.


I got out of private industry fixing cars in 1996, just as all the plastic was really coming in. Dealing with the cars in civil service (repair and regulation), the plastics started showing their shortcomings with out-gassing issues and becoming brittle and failing. Intakes, air bags, dashes, HVAC plenums (Mopar especially). Seems that the cars got to be 10-ish years old, and they started to fall apart. Mostly European and domestic, not Japanese. 
Saw a Car Wizard the other day and he was working on a mint, low mile (40,000) Jaguar XJ8 that was a '98 model year and it needed over $4,000 dollars for a timing chain and tensioner replacement. Seems that the tensioners and guides are engineered for 40k miles. About half of a timing belt on another car, unless it's an Alfa Romeo or Lambourgini, which need belts at 35k mile intervals. 
Points and condensers in ALL my old cars for the past 45+ years with zero issues and zero tow-homes. Can't say that about HEI, especially Pertronix. Pertronix is absolute crap, IME.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Buguy said:


> I fully understand that. I put a turbo, efi, air to water intercooler, wheel speed sensors, and flex fuel with e85 on my little 65 VW beetle. I for sure know the troubles that come from it. I pretty much pieced it together and used Megasquirt do it yourself ecu.


When you do the work yourself, the dependability factor goes WAY up


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

geeteeohguy said:


> I got out of private industry fixing cars in 1996, just as all the plastic was really coming in. Dealing with the cars in civil service (repair and regulation), the plastics started showing their shortcomings with out-gassing issues and becoming brittle and failing. Intakes, air bags, dashes, HVAC plenums (Mopar especially). Seems that the cars got to be 10-ish years old, and they started to fall apart. Mostly European and domestic, not Japanese.
> Saw a Car Wizard the other day and he was working on a mint, low mile (40,000) Jaguar XJ8 that was a '98 model year and it needed over $4,000 dollars for a timing chain and tensioner replacement. Seems that the tensioners and guides are engineered for 40k miles. About half of a timing belt on another car, unless it's an Alfa Romeo or Lambourgini, which need belts at 35k mile intervals.
> Points and condensers in ALL my old cars for the past 45+ years with zero issues and zero tow-homes. Can't say that about HEI, especially Pertronix. Pertronix is absolute crap, IME.


The Jeep Grand Cherokee is one of the highest rated American SUV's available. They have 14 trim levels, and I bought number 12.

It was a completely awesome, comfortable, performance machine... which was appropriate for $70,000.

Within two years and 18,000 miles, the premium leather seats were starting to crack, the stereo started to intermittently fail (which also controlled the climate, windows, alarm, and air suspension), and the air suspension started to go. It wouldve cost $10,000 and not have been covered by warranty, by the time the truck was 3 years old.

If that truck had coil springs, vinyl seats, and a Pioneer Supertuner, I'd have kept it.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I had a Yukon for 10 years and the engine went untouched complete besides oil changes for the entire time. Not something i can say about any old car i have had. I also didn't have a team of engineers designing it and a team of master builders doing the work on them so.... Whatever that means! I honestly don't think i could go wrong with whatever i put in it. Both have good and bad about them.


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## Duff (Jan 12, 2020)

armyadarkness said:


> The Jeep Grand Cherokee is one of the highest rated American SUV's available. They have 14 trim levels, and I bought number 12.
> 
> It was a completely awesome, comfortable, performance machine... which was appropriate for $70,000.
> 
> ...


I was cool enough, but didn't have enough $$$ to own a SuperTuner back in HS, I did buy a Craig Power Play in 1976, and I still have it.


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

Buguy said:


> I fully understand that. I put a turbo, efi, air to water intercooler, wheel speed sensors, and flex fuel with e85 on my little 65 VW beetle. I for sure know the troubles that come from it. I pretty much pieced it together and used Megasquirt do it yourself ecu.


 Don't get me started the kid wants to do the Subaru swap on our super beetle. 

I would rather have the megasquirt than the holley or the FiTech.Parts replacement goes easier when you sourced the parts. I am configuring a RPi data logger for my cars. keep the kids interested. They can use it for 4H and science projects.


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

1970BurgundyJudge said:


> 70 Judge ram air III heads are #12. I think #48 are





armyadarkness said:


> Sounds like typical craigslist BS, to me. I would want full documentation on the rebuild, and verify the engine codes.


And then the code and vin on the blocks can be restamped !!! I have a 70 YZ block and have #12 heads to go on it as it is a 4sp car...that is as close as I can get to being correct with my funds !😂😂 period correct but not matching #'s 🤷‍♂️ 👍Could cheat but I am not that kind of person. Would rather stand on the ground and tell someone the truth as to spend the entire today climbing a greasy light pole to tell you a lie !! Lol


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I'm the same way. I'd love it if i had the matching numbers engine and trans, but i don't, so i don't think i would even bother trying to find something close. I'd have to pay so much for it, i don't think it would be worth it for me. I'm not the guy that goes and sits at a car show with the hood up. Usually if i go i park out in the lot, walk through and then leave. When you build muscle cars for a living, it really kind of takes the excitement out of shows. I do like to go and meet like minded people and hear their stories though. 
We have a 69 RAIII auto T/A that left for Mecum today, and another 69 RA4 4 speed that was supposed to go but the owner changed his mind at the last minute. I was told there is going to be a 69 RA4 convertible T/A there as well but i didn't build that one.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Buguy said:


> I had a Yukon for 10 years and the engine went untouched complete besides oil changes for the entire time. Not something i can say about any old car i have had. I also didn't have a team of engineers designing it and a team of master builders doing the work on them so.... Whatever that means! I honestly don't think i could go wrong with whatever i put in it. Both have good and bad about them.


It boils down to personal choice WHEN it is your vehicle. Did you smoke the tires regularly on the Yukon? Take it to the drags? Run other cars from a stop light? Wind the engine out to 6K manually shifting the automatic?

You have to look at the vehicle and how it will be driven. There are those who won't RPM their Pontiacs past 5K. Automatics are far more easier on the drivetrain that a 4-speed - and those are many of the cars that still have their original engines. The "older" cars were never designed or intended to go the mileage that most cars of today can go - 100,000 miles was pretty good if the body/frame had not rotted out from underneath you, but often they were worn out at 80K, But, they did not cost what the vehicles of to day do even if you take into account the difference of inflation - dollars then versus dollars now. You didn't have to get a 7 year loan like today to pay the thing off.

Nothing wrong with the "old" engines, and I don't see a "reliability" issue either. The reliability issue is more about all the modifications many of us like to add to boost HP above and beyond what the factory ever intended it to be. Build a stock low compression (9.0 or less), keep RPM's down, don't beat the snot out of it, put an automatic behind it, and change oil/filter regularly, tune it up regularly, and it'll be extremely reliable.

So the argument of reliablility is from those who don't know how to work on these older cars, don't care to work on these older cars, don't want to pay the costs to have the old cars worked on, don't want to have to wait for parts, or wait in line. BUT, this also should not be their primary car and you know that you just don't get parts off the shlf at NAPA anymore or pull up to your local mom & pop auto repair garage where they can listen to the engine and tell you right away what the issue is - they don't charge you $150.00 right off the bat to diagnose the issue and then go from there. Seems I can't get out of a garage with a repair under $500.00. Never had to flush a TH-400 because I could not check the fluid level, and it did not cost $300.00 to do so.

BUT, you can certainly take advantage of many modern add-ons that would enhance the stock engine. Hot-start issues? Mount an electric fuel pump system - problem solved if you know what all the components are needed to "correctly" do this. Go one step better - fuel/throttle body injection. You still have to purchase all the "correct" parts to accomplish this making the set-up more complex and more expensive. It'll improve start-up, idle better, have more power as the O2 sensor monitors your A/F ratios, and even better gas mileage, BUT, if my choke is set correctly and I have that electric fuel pump, start up should not be an issue and so what if I have to crank the key a couple times? Idle? What is that when you have a 300 duration .500" lift cam - I want choppy idle. Smooth? Yeah, its smooth enough that when I stomp the pedal the tires go up in smoke - should I want anything more? Gas mileage? If I have to be concerned about a lumpy cammed 400-500HP engine, then I should have went with a stock 2 Bbl 326. AND......what better sound is there when that secondary air valve snaps open and the engine/exhaust note drops into that deep tone that means business. Not going to get that FI or any other square bore carb - and that's one of the big differences that is a selling point with an old Q-jet in/on a Pontiac engine - but even I like the AFB's when having dual quads.

If I had a '70 Judge, or any Judge, and were looking at resale and it did not have its original engine, the LS swap would not fetch anymore for the amount of money to do a "good/complete" swap. Try to locate a "period correct" engine is a waste because it is only "period correct" and not original and to rebuild ti to "period correct" and do it factory can be costly and the high compression is not really favored when you have to use racing gas. So the way I would go would be what many do want. A stroker 400/460CI, aluminum heads, TKX 5-speed, better rear end (12-bolt or 9"), disc brakes. Keep the body stock in appearance, keep the interior stock. In doing this way, you have kept it Pontiacm which is in your favor, and you have installed a drivetrain that is by far the most popular making it a good value and desireable to most Pontiac enthusiast - the factory crowd or us motor heads.

As said, its your car. If you believe the LS is more reliable (until you can't get parts in the future) and you think it will not hurt the value, then go for it. No need to try and convince me or anyone else. I do what I want with my cars and don't need to convince or explain why I did it nor look at it from a resale viewpoint - its my car with my tastes in cars. Beat me up all you want, it won't change my mind, I'll do as I see the finished car being mine. I don't like the LS in a Pontiac - you should have sold it and got a Chevelle are my thoughts. When I see a hood open on a GTO and spot the LS (sticks out like a sore thumb), I don't even look at it and walk right by - not worth my time to stare into a disappointing engine bay. But, there are all kinds of conversion parts nowadays sold by the Pontiac builders/performance guys, and many do do the swap. I still like flatheads and Buick straight-8's. A bad-ass 283CI is another favorite - but not in a Pontiac.


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

I think he was chasing a Red Head in this one,


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

If i remember right, that car is a clone!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Duff said:


> I was cool enough, but didn't have enough $$$ to own a SuperTuner back in HS, I did buy a Craig Power Play in 1976, and I still have it.


Craig? You mustve been a millionaire! I could only afford 2nd hand Sparkomatics... or Radio Shack.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Buguy said:


> When you build muscle cars for a living, it really kind of takes the excitement out of shows.


Agreed. I dont do it for a living, and I can barely go to car shows anymore. I already own what I'd be going to see.


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

armyadarkness said:


> Craig? You mustve been a millionaire! I could only afford 2nd hand Sparkomatics... or Radio Shack.


 Y; all were getting the store bought radios. I got some great radios from flea markets marked down from 399.99 to 19 dollars. You know 500 watts!!! or 500 whats?


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## Duff (Jan 12, 2020)

Are you saying that blocks get restamped and that they're may be dishonesty in the collector car market? I think there's more 427 vettes running around now than GM built!


armyadarkness said:


> Craig? You mustve been a millionaire! I could only afford 2nd hand Sparkomatics... or Radio Shack.


Only took me 6 months of throwing newspapers to buy it used, had I sold weed like the others, I'd had a Super Tuner for the front and back of my car!


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

Duff said:


> Only took me 6 months of throwing newspapers to buy it used, had I sold weed like the others, I'd had a Super Tuner for the front and back of my car!


You can still get a KP500 for 500.00 or 250.00 for a parts pig. By brother had one as a teen. I should ask him what he was selling.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)




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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Here's what mine came with, and another nice hack job...had to find a new trim peice that cost 50.00.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

PontiacJim said:


> It boils down to personal choice WHEN it is your vehicle. Did you smoke the tires regularly on the Yukon? Take it to the drags? Run other cars from a stop light? Wind the engine out to 6K manually shifting the automatic?
> 
> You have to look at the vehicle and how it will be driven. There are those who won't RPM their Pontiacs past 5K. Automatics are far more easier on the drivetrain that a 4-speed - and those are many of the cars that still have their original engines. The "older" cars were never designed or intended to go the mileage that most cars of today can go - 100,000 miles was pretty good if the body/frame had not rotted out from underneath you, but often they were worn out at 80K, But, they did not cost what the vehicles of to day do even if you take into account the difference of inflation - dollars then versus dollars now. You didn't have to get a 7 year loan like today to pay the thing off.
> 
> ...


THIS^^^^^. 100%. I rebuilt my '67 with 173,000 original miles on it because it had two burnt exhaust valves. Now it has almost 90k more miles on it. When it gets tired, I'll rebuild it again. Then my heirs can worry about it. I haven't blown up my '65 since 1990. But from 1982-1990, I blew up 2 rear ends, one transmission, and one engine due to my driving style. After I paid for the rebuild of the blown up rear in 1990, I've driven the car with much more respect. That said, I have floated the valves in my '67 and '65 GTO's in the past 20 years.


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

I am hell on automatics. I guess cause my foot has nothing to do but stand on it, So that's what I do.

Foot boredom


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

67ventwindow said:


> I am hell on automatics. I guess cause my foot has nothing to do but stand on it, So that's what I do.
> 
> Foot boredom


Every first-gen 4 speed GTO I've ever had had a replacement engine. Every first gen GTO I've ever had with an automatic had the born with engine. The 389 engine on my first car, a '66 GTO, was grenaded about a month before I got it when the owner down-shifted from 4th gear to 1st gear (oops) at 90 mph. A $150 running 400 out of a '67 Catalina fixed that problem.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

When you start transplanting "other" engines in any make that was not in line with the factory manufacturer' engine type, then you have a "hot rod." I am good with hot rods, but don't think it has come to that point where we can call our cars "hot rods." When the parts become that scarce and engines that slim, then people will have to do what is needed to keep them running and then, I will be OK with a different make engine in a Pontiac, because there will be different make engines in Fords, Mopars, Buicks, Olds, etc.. A small block chevy in a 1939 Pontiac doesn't bother me - its a hot rod. A hemi would be cooler, but a chevy will work - with a 6-71 blower. LOL


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Dang. A Butler forged crank is $1000??


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## lust4speed (Jul 5, 2019)

Army might appreciate the following:

_You have a GTO and numbers matching engine. That's like dating a beautiful naturally big busted girl.

You have a GTO and almost the correct engine. That's like dating a beautiful girl that has breast implants.

You have a GTO with an LS engine. That's like dating a girl that stuffs her bra with tissue._


I liked the show Iron Resurrection until I realized that every show he ordered out the same chassis and put the same junk yard rebuilt LS engine in it. They basically jack up the body on whatever they are working on and set it down on a boiler plate build. You aren't driving a '65 Catalina, a '32 Ford, or any other classic vehicle -- you're driving an Iron Resurrection kit car. Every time you fire up your phony GTO you could have saved even more money by buying an old VW and tossing on a fiberglass MG body.

My wife drives an LS, but it's still in the Yukon. It's come home twice on a flatbed wrecker in the last couple years. Once for the in-tank fuel pump failing and the second time for an ignition problem. My GTO hasn't come home that way yet. Several years ago a friend and I drove our Pontiacs to the Co-Vention in Ohio. I drove my 67 GTO and he drove his '68 Grand Prix. Three weeks and 4,800 miles later we both returned home without a problem. Would love to take the trip again, and just might. The last half dozen years I've made due with a dozen members of our car club going from SoCal to Yuma for the Midnight At The Oasis Show. Not as large of challenge but still about 600 miles round trip of not so careful driving.









And a short video link at the Yuma show: YouTube Video


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

lust4speed said:


> I liked the show Iron Resurrection until I realized that every show he ordered out the same chassis and put the same junk yard rebuilt LS engine in it. They basically jack up the body on whatever they are working on and set it down on a boiler plate build.


 I don't understand they spend so much time on the body and they buy junk yard rearend and engines. The car I like from that show is the rambler. My mom use to drive us kids around in a rambler. What she wouldnt give for a LS in that thing. It did catch air once but thats another story.


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

Buguy said:


> If i remember right, that car is a clone!


Its a movie. Don't believe anything you see on stage or screen. Half my Christmas decorations are props from movie and stage shows. Its all fake.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

So i just found a complete engine minus pulleys and brackets here at work. It's a WS block, but where its sitting i can't see the numbers by the distributor. It does have #16 heads though so it looks like it could be a 1968. It's not super easy to get to, and difficult to see, but it looked like the head had 1169 stamped on the head toward the back. I don't see a number 16 head listed for 1969 though so I'm not sure what it is just yet.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

lust4speed said:


> _You have a GTO and numbers matching engine. That's like dating a beautiful naturally big busted girl.
> 
> You have a GTO and almost the correct engine. That's like dating a beautiful girl that has breast implants.
> 
> You have a GTO with an LS engine. That's like dating a girl that stuffs her bra with tissue._


lololololololo


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Right On, Lust! I agree 100%! Got strange looks at Yellowstone National park in my '67 GTO with the top down when folks saw my California plates!

One of the cool swaps I've seen was at a local car show here a few years back...a guy had his dad's '50 Cadillac Eldorado convertible that had the original black paint, red leather interior, and white top, but his dad swapped in a 1957 Oldsmobile 364 J2 Tripower engine in 1958 out of a wrecked car and converted it to 3 speed OD on the column from an earlier Cad. Car still ran and looked super cool. 
Agree on Iron Resurrection---much respect for the metal work, artistry, paint, and like the guys (except that 'Shaggy' guy) but I can't stand the cookie cutter 'slammed, bagged, LS'd' drivelines. Boring as all get out.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

It seems Kindig is guilty of the LS only rash too, I've only seen a few LS's that were made to look good or period correct with custom valve covers otherwise I get close to a nice car and see that under the hood and shake my head and say to bad as I walk away.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I don't like the looks either, but we build quite a few here at the customer request. They always start and run so well it seems. They are fast and i think they sound great. Many we do are the supercharged version, so that probably doesn't hurt. 600-800hp, good manors, and get surprisingly good fuel mileage. Most have a/c an they never seem to overheat, unlike the old engines we put in that seems here in Florida to always plague us. 
Not that i don't love a healthy old Pontiac engine, but for driveability, they are not easy to beat. When something goes wrong though, as was said already, your probably going to be walking home!


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

Buguy said:


> I don't like the looks either, but we build quite a few here at the customer request. They always start and run so well it seems. They are fast and i think they sound great. Many we do are the supercharged version, so that probably doesn't hurt. 600-800hp, good manors, and get surprisingly good fuel mileage. Most have a/c an they never seem to overheat, unlike the old engines we put in that seems here in Florida to always plague us.
> Not that i don't love a healthy old Pontiac engine, but for driveability, they are not easy to beat. When something goes wrong though, as was said already, your probably going to be walking home!


 So are you guys putting in 15 year old LS in these? Are they going to love these in ten years? That is what you should be asking. Then in 10 years they will have a car that is breaking down and is ugly to boot. Then put in the next new thing I guess.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

These guys always provide their own, so i really don't know. I suppose in 10 years they will all be electric. I went to Sema last year and I'd say 60% were electric.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

So back to this engine i found. Here is what i see so far. Maybe someone else can help me verify what it is. 
Block says: 
0097025
WS

Date cast on the back is: 
1039 (or maybe it's an I,) 

Block cast number: 
9799914

Near the timing chain cover it looks like: 
20R119530

Head has a cast: 
#16 on the center exhaust ports 

Near the back at the top looks like: 
1169 or maybe J169
Any thoughts?


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

To me it looks like a 1970 RA block, but i don't see a listing for #16 heads for 70.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

16 heads for 1970 were the small valve version. Usually found on lower HP 400s

Take another look at the code. Could it be WE?

*Year Engine. HP. Engine code. Trans. CR. Cam. Head Code. BBL. Carb No. Misc*
1970. 400. 290 HP. WE. M 10.0. 066. 16/sm valve. 1-2. 7040066. Block Casting 9799914



Wallace Racing's Pontiac Engine Code Search




I119 would be Sept 16, 1969


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

67ventwindow said:


> I am hell on automatics. I guess cause my foot has nothing to do but stand on it, So that's what I do.
> 
> Foot boredom


1967 Dearborn still going strong.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

67ventwindow said:


> I don't understand they spend so much time on the body and they buy junk yard rearend and engines. The car I like from that show is the rambler. My mom use to drive us kids around in a rambler. What she wouldnt give for a LS in that thing. It did catch air once but thats another story.


"It did catch air once but thats another story."

So did my dad's 1965 Impala and his 1971 Ford Pinto - but I ain't talkin'.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

No it is definitely a WS. And we did have a rotten 70 Judge here a couple years ago. 
If I'm not mistaken and the head number is J169, could that be September 16, 1969? Would that be considered a 1969 or a 1970?
Same question for the block IO39. Would that be October 03, 1969? Would that still be a 1969?
Maybe heads have been swapped in the past?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Buguy said:


> No it is definitely a WS. And we did have a rotten 70 Judge here a couple years ago.
> If I'm not mistaken and the head number is J169, could that be November 16, 1969? Would that be considered a 1969 or a 1970?
> Same question for the block IO39. Would that be October 03, 1969? Would that still be a 1969?
> Maybe heads have been swapped in the past?


New year begins in August and cars hot the showroom in September, So August 1969 onward is a 1970 model.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

So when I'm looking at these September 1969 #16 heads, they would be considered a 1970?
Same with the October 69 block? It would be a 1970?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Buguy said:


> So when I'm looking at these September 1969 #16 heads, they would be considered a 1970?
> Same with the October 69 block? It would be a 1970?


Yes sir, correct. Quick confirm on the heads is pull a valve cover. The big valve heads will have screw-in rocker arm studs - look under the rocker arm and you will see what looks like a nut. If not there, then low performance heads.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Ok so if I'm not mistaken on the numbers it should be a 70 RA3 block with small valve #16 heads. I will pull a cover to confirm. So i guess for me there is only a small benefit of a correct code block, which since its not numbers matching, is barely more than a short block i can build something from. Also it has a Torquer intake and HEI distributor, so not much left of it.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

Buguy said:


> So when I'm looking at these September 1969 #16 heads, they would be considered a 1970?
> Same with the October 69 block? It would be a 1970?


Cast parts use the letter I. 
I = September
J = October

Block is Sept 3, 1969 (I039). Block has an early EUN (097025) and VIN 20R119530. Late September Arlington build
Heads are Oct 16, 1969 (J169) 

Both 1970 model year


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Heads don't really matter. What matters is you have the perfect block for the Judge. Date and application. Run aluminum heads on it. It's the block that's the hard part, and you have it made in the shade.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

It will all boil down to what it takes to get it. It belongs to my boss and he is at Mecum, so i can't ask yet. The guy that builds our engines at work said the boss told him not to touch it because it was a "special" engine. I also don't know the build date of my car yet, so it may be only barely good for me. Basically just the correct code. I did find at least 3 other Pontiac engines around the shop though. 2 of them are 455's and one is a 2 barrel 400.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Buguy said:


> It will all boil down to what it takes to get it. It belongs to my boss and he is at Mecum, so i can't ask yet. The guy that builds our engines at work said the boss told him not to touch it because it was a "special" engine. I also don't know the build date of my car yet, so it may be only barely good for me. Basically just the correct code. I did find at least 3 other Pontiac engines around the shop though. 2 of them are 455's and one is a 2 barrel 400.


It's the right code and right year. It's as good as it gets. Since the original engine is gone, your date code on the replacement block to the build date of the car is not relevant. The same model year and letter code is great. One look at the VIN on the block or PHS or POP will tell anybody that it's not the 'born with' engine. Having the correct year and code block is a value adder to this car as it sits.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Ok cool. I will ask if he will sell it. Any idea what the value would be on something like that? I don't want to overpay.


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

armyadarkness said:


> Craig? You mustve been a millionaire! I could only afford 2nd hand Sparkomatics... or Radio Shack.


All I could afford was a FM converter for my am radio !!! 😂😂 Fact ! If I remember correctly it was an audiovox converter


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Buguy said:


> So i just found a complete engine minus pulleys and brackets here at work. It's a WS block, but where its sitting i can't see the numbers by the distributor. It does have #16 heads though so it looks like it could be a 1968. It's not super easy to get to, and difficult to see, but it looked like the head had 1169 stamped on the head toward the back. I don't see a number 16 head listed for 1969 though so I'm not sure what it is just yet.


HO engine ?


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Not according to the block, but i am pretty new at this numbers game, so i could be mistaken.


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Buguy said:


> Not according to the block, but i am pretty new at this numbers game, so i could be mistaken.


68 did have a WS code and was a HO....rated at 360 hp but as you have date code that reads as a 70 block. I have a 68 WS block and crank here and traded the #16 heads to a set of 73 455 heads for lower compression to run this corn water we have nowadays!! 😂😂 Guy was tickled pink on that trade 😂🤣👍 But I did get a set of RA manifolds in the trade but they were 68 models which doesn't bother me at all at least they are RA manifolds !


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Yeah this one is a 70. I'm only going to buy it if it's cheap.


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Buguy said:


> Yeah this one is a 70. I'm only going to buy it if it's cheap.


I gave $1,500.00 for the 70 YZ RA lll I have and it was a basket case came with #12 heads so I was lucky there as my judge is a 4 sp car. Going to have around 4k in engine when done. Engine was bought over 10 years ago...hope this gives you some idea on the one you are looking at !!


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Thank you i appreciate that.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Buguy said:


> Ok cool. I will ask if he will sell it. Any idea what the value would be on something like that? I don't want to overpay.


The 1970 WS engine (which it is) is shown to be a 4-bolt main cap engine - rare, expensive.

Personally, depending on the year, I would opt for the 400 2 Bbl. Period correct block may add some value, but not big and then not really much if you do not go the full route with matching iron heads & intake. Most likely the 2 Bbl engine had an easy life. Then do the stroker route. The 455 is good, but there is advantage to the smaller journal mains on the 400 vs the 455. I am using a 455 and am not worried about the larger mains - key is the oiling system. The 400 will turn higher RPM's more comfortably if you like to spin the RPM's. I figure my engine good for 5,800 RPM's without issue IF my cam is big enough to fill the cylinders at the RPM. May be much lower, but it is all about torque with regards to bigger cubes.

"In 1968 Pontiac created the PN 9790071 casting for two-bolt applications. By year's end, Pontiac determined that two separate castings were unnecessary and it began drilling and tapping the PN 9790071 casting to accept four-bolt main caps as required for Ram Air applications. The PN 9790071 was carried over for 1969, also using the same practice of for attaining two- and four-bolt blocks.
The 1970 model year saw the introduction of yet another 400 ci casting. It differed in that it was equipped with all of the appropriate mounting bosses to fit the new-for-1970 Firebird chassis. Despite being drilled and tapped for four-bolt caps, Pontiac installed two-bolt caps on PN 9799914 for typical applications, while a second casting, PN 9799915, was limited to four-bolt Ram Air applications. The PN 9799915 was actually created by grinding away the "4" of the "9799914" part number and hand-stamping a "5" into place. The need for Pontiac to require two identically machined blocks remains unclear, and in rare instances we find where Pontiac used the PN 9799914 or PN 9799915 interchangeably."


Here is what this guy wants for a 1969 WS rebuilt short block just for comparison sake.









Pontiac 1969 400 WS GTO Ram Air lll Rebuilt short block forged pistons 068 cam | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Pontiac 1969 400 WS GTO Ram Air lll Rebuilt short block forged pistons 068 cam at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Buguy said:


> Thank you i appreciate that.


Mine will bepp a pieced together judge but it is mine and I love it. Ran it with a 73 400 block and 670 heads up until now. A friend and I have traded labor....he putting my engine together and I am going to rework his 1/4 panels on his 68.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

That's pricey. There is a "rebuilt" 69 fire bird ram air 3 for 5k locally. I assume its a WS or YZ.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Yeah i have no clue what will become of mine. I do body and paint for a living so it will be pretty for sure. If I'm able to actually get it finished!


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Buguy said:


> Yeah i have no clue what will become of mine. I do body and paint for a living so it will be pretty for sure. If I'm able to actually get it finished!


Most Pontiac people like Pontiac engines.... but hey it yours so do as you like
It's like Pontiac Jim said ! 👍


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I don't have many pics of the car, but this is how it sits at the moment. I bought new metal for it 20 years ago, but now that i know how to do it i will be repairing the original panels.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I will get the hang of this sooner or later! This is from 1984 or 1985 when i got it.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

My dad found that spoiler somewhere in around 1987. Not sure if they have any value, but it's likely NOS. I have my original one to use.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

That engine im looking at has 2 vin numbers stamped into it.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

Same number. Evidently didn't hit it hard enough the first time


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Glad it isn't my original matching numbers block. They would have a field day with that.


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Buguy said:


> Glad it isn't my original matching numbers block. They would have a field day with that.


Looks like a keeper to me !


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Car looks good. If you end up going with the small valve heads, there are options. I'd strongly recommend reaching out to Darren at Nitemare Performance in CT. He only works on Pontiac engines and can help you choose the set up to get the most out of whatever size engine you go with 400, 455, 461 stroker, whatever. I'm running a pair of his 6X stage II heads with larger exhaust valves installed along with the intake and cam shaft he recommended. The heads are ported and confirmed to support 515 hp based on flow numbers. The car is a screamer. You could have your small valve heads reworked for a fraction of the cost of aluminum.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

That's surprising. Machine shops around here would probably cost me more than a new set of aluminum heads.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

That's interesting. So as i said i got this car in 1984. I moved to Florida 15 years ago and had it in my dad's building until he passed 5 years ago. I went and got it at that time and is still in that trailer i keep at some property my boss owns. I don't remember the chrome trim that appears to be on the wheel wells. Did 70 Judges come with chrome trim? The car was repainted and had some bondo over rust on the wheel wells when i got it. Which is also surprising since it would have only been 14 years old at the time. I guess they were daily drivers back then, but if i remember right it is pretty low mileage. I don't remember seeing a judge with chrome trim before, so it's possible it was added.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Buguy said:


> Yeah this one is a 70. I'm only going to buy it if it's cheap.


Nothing Pontiac is cheap... especially anything "70"


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Buguy said:


> My dad found that spoiler somewhere in around 1987. Not sure if they have any value, but it's likely NOS. I have my original one to use.
> View attachment 160558











RODEO CLOWN GTO JUDGE


Most of you don't associate Jersey with the rodeo, nevertheless, my cruising route takes me past a cool rodeo in the desolation of South-West Jersey. So... On Saturday night, we decided to go check it out. The joint was packed to the hilt... with girls in bikini tops, Daisey Dukes, and cowboy...




www.gtoforum.com


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Buguy said:


> That's pricey. There is a "rebuilt" 69 fire bird ram air 3 for 5k locally. I assume its a WS or YZ.


Which begs the question, where are you located?


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

That's kind of my point of "cheap". I personally don't really care much about the numbers. Especially if i decide to go with aluminum heads. I'm not going to pay $3000 for what would essentially be a block and a crank. I'd rather buy one without numbers for $500 and use that extra money on go fast parts, or maybe a 5 speed in case i want to drive some distance. Speaking of that i did find a 1975 trans am 400 with a Muncie attached for $1500. Supposedly ran, taken out of a rotten car. Not too bad. Seems like a 4 speed brings $750-$1100 here.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I'm in Daytona Beach


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Buguy said:


> That's interesting. So as i said i got this car in 1984. I moved to Florida 15 years ago and had it in my dad's building until he passed 5 years ago. I went and got it at that time and is still in that trailer i keep at some property my boss owns. I don't remember the chrome trim that appears to be on the wheel wells. Did 70 Judges come with chrome trim? The car was repainted and had some bondo over rust on the wheel wells when i got it. Which is also surprising since it would have only been 14 years old at the time. I guess they were daily drivers back then, but if i remember right it is pretty low mileage. I don't remember seeing a judge with chrome trim before, so it's possible it was added.


Here is the one I bought around 1982ish. No wheel well chrome on the Judge.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I'm wondering if someone added the chrome to cover up some of the bondo edges.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

No Chrome well trim or trim rings on the wheels. Should look like PJ's pic of that beautiful Pepper Green Judge. (my personal favorite for '70)


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Interesting. I was just thinking, i wonder if the dude i got mine from is still alive. He was a heavy drinker and smoker.... So he probably is! I might see if i can come up with his number. Although he did paint and body, i don't think he did any of that on my car. He did keep the rear end of my judge though. Said they were stronger than a chevy. I went to see him 15 years ago before i moved away and he wouldn't let the rear go. Still swore he was going to use it. Even though it had been sitting for 23 years. Who am to judge?! I've had my car 38 years and never driven it.


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Buguy said:


> I'm wondering if someone added the chrome to cover up some of the bondo edges.


Wheel well chrome could have been ordered as an option ? 🤔 I know that the hood tach was an option on judge's. As mine didn't have a tach at all....have billed sheet found above gas tank 4 years ago.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I should have the PHS Tuesday, so i will know more then.


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## 1970BurgundyJudge (8 mo ago)

The wheel opening moldings were optional at $15.80.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)




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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I hope it's not on my PHS because i don't love them!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Buguy said:


> I hope it's not on my PHS because i don't love them!


That would be a first as I have never seen a Judge with the wheel well moldings. Just does not look right.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I don't even remember them being there, but in the pictures i posted i noticed it.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Buguy said:


> That's kind of my point of "cheap". I personally don't really care much about the numbers. Especially if i decide to go with aluminum heads. I'm not going to pay $3000 for what would essentially be a block and a crank. I'd rather buy one without numbers for $500 and use that extra money on go fast parts, or maybe a 5 speed in case i want to drive some distance. Speaking of that i did find a 1975 trans am 400 with a Muncie attached for $1500. Supposedly ran, taken out of a rotten car. Not too bad. Seems like a 4 speed brings $750-$1100 here.


1975 Block could be a thin casting engine. Best to avoid and look for an older 400.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Is that the 557 block that is thin?


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I just did a quick Google search, and it seems like 50% or more pics i find of 70 Judges have chrome moulding on the wheel openings.


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## 1970BurgundyJudge (8 mo ago)

I never noticed a Judge _without_ the wheel opening moldings. Now I'm looking and like Buguy, it seems like its 50/50 on the moldings. The Judge, like the 70 Trans Am did not come with trim rings on the Rally IIs. I read somewhere that but they could be ordered as an option but I could not find an option code for trim rings. Maybe they were a dealer installed option?


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I do see some with the trim rings on the wheels, but i just figured they didn't know any better.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Also the boss doesn't want to sell the WS engine. Turns out he has the car it came out of somewhere.


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## 1970BurgundyJudge (8 mo ago)

Buguy, does your front valance have chrome trim on it? On the PY forum there is a thread on whether the Judge had the chrome trim on the valance openings. Posts referred to Pontiac documents stating the Judge did not receive the chrome trim but some early production cars may have gotten it. Another poster that had his Judge since1974 shows his car with the trim. Like the wheel moldings, I see pictures of Judges with and without the trim.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I'm not real sure. I haven't seen my car in 15 years. I drove back home 5 years ago and picked it up, but i was there 24 hours and loaded 2 cars, parts, and an extra engine in that time so i didn't look it over. I plan to get it out of the trailer in the next couple weeks and see what exactly i have. I feel like mine did have it, but it's been so long i can't be sure yet.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Just got the phs. $15.80 for wheel well mouldings.


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Buguy said:


> Just got the phs. $15.80 for wheel well mouldings.


Mine came without wheel well mouldings


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I found it odd. They opted for wheel well molding, but not a console? What the?!


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Buguy said:


> I found it odd. They opted for wheel well molding, but not a console? What the?!
> View attachment 160656
> View attachment 160656


Here is PHS sheet on mine.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

So does yours have the sport type door mirror? 
And no safe-t track. Does that mean yours didn't have posi?


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

I laminated mine and the factory build sheet (what was left of it anyway 😂).


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Buguy said:


> So does yours have the sport type door mirror?
> And no safe-t track. Does that mean yours didn't have posi?


Not a sport mirror and yes it came with the 3:55 peg leg they call it (open/single track) differential


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Bopman said:


> Not a sport mirror and yes it came with the 3:55 peg leg they call it (open/single track) differential


Not a safe-T-track


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Palladium (silver) PP


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

But you got a tape player! 
And i got floor mats


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Yeah i about freaked when i saw the paint code "TT"! I thought that was white! Had to look again.


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Buguy said:


> But you got a tape player!
> And i got floor mats


😂 here is the almost toast build sheet that I found on top of gas tank 4 years ago while replacing the tank that finally went to leaking.


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

I read on this forum that you should never include or show the complete VIN # as that can lead to a lot of problems!! 👍


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## 1970BurgundyJudge (8 mo ago)

Mine also came without a console. No power steering either.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

That's awesome that you found it! And i agree, best not to show the whole vin. I haven't pulled my tank yet, but i did find one there on my last 70 GTO.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I'm fancy! I got power steering and brakes!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Buguy said:


> I found it odd. They opted for wheel well molding, but not a console? What the?!
> View attachment 160656
> View attachment 160656



Wow, that is an odd one.  Never saw one with moldings, still like it better without.


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

1970BurgundyJudge said:


> Mine also came without a console. No power steering either.


Any progress on your judge lately ?


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## 1970BurgundyJudge (8 mo ago)

Bopman said:


> Any progress on your judge lately ?


Still doing metal work. I will be dropping off my motor to be built in a couple of weeks.


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

1970BurgundyJudge said:


> Still doing metal work. I will be dropping off my motor to be built in a couple of weeks.


Good deal 👍


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## 1970BurgundyJudge (8 mo ago)

Are you making progress?


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

And mine says something about the tires. Would that be white letter wide-o-ovals?
And is that a rear speaker on mine too?


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

1970BurgundyJudge said:


> Are you making progress?


Waiting on engine to be put together.


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Buguy said:


> And mine says something about the tires. Would that be white letter wide-o-ovals?
> And is that a rear speaker on mine too?


I'm thinking that it was ordered with the next size tire as they came with F-70 I believe.


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## 1970BurgundyJudge (8 mo ago)

Buguy said:


> And mine says something about the tires. Would that be white letter wide-o-ovals?
> And is that a rear speaker on mine too?


You have a rear speaker for your AM pushbutton radio. The tires were G70x14.


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Buguy said:


> And mine says something about the tires. Would that be white letter wide-o-ovals?
> And is that a rear speaker on mine too?


WL on the tire option is probably the white letter ovals you are speaking of.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

It says WL. Would that be maybe for "white letter" or maybe "white line"?


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I have so much to learn!


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Bopman said:


> WL on the tire option is probably the white letter ovals you are speaking of.


I read somewhere that F-70 blackwall was standard on the judge....not sure if that was so though.


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## 1970BurgundyJudge (8 mo ago)

I believe it is white letter. White wall tires were G78x14.


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Buguy said:


> I have so much to learn!


There is a wealth of knowledge on this forum, a lot on here know way more than I do !!!! 😂👍


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

G70-14 Raised White Letter were standard issue on a 1970 Judge.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

Tires moved up a letter with the introduction of the 68 models. Over the following years the standard tire aspect ratio would change from G77 to 78, 70, 60 then back to E70 for the 74 GTO.
Radial tires were offered in 68 and 73/74 only.

And, the letter designation does not mean larger in size but increased weight rating. It's just by coincidence (  ) that tires got bigger to carry additional weight. Tire sizes are dependent on how each manufacturer met the specified letter weight rating.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

geeteeohguy said:


> G70-14 Raised White Letter were standard issue on a 1970 Judge.


If that is the case why does mine state it in the PHS, and his doesn't? Would it be just because of the HL?


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

Good point. 
The GTO Identification Guide states that G78 x 14 was the standard tire for the GTO/Judge and the G70 WL and G70 WW were optional.
But, the 1970 Pontiac Accessorizer booklet and High Performance Sales brochure states G70 x 14 BW tires were standard on the GTO and Judge.

However, Sales brochures were created prior to the model year beginning and were not always accurate.

Coin toss...






Factory Literature / Pontiac Performance Cars 1965-1971 / 1970 Performance Cars


Factory Literature / Pontiac Performance Cars 1965-1971 / 1970 Performance Cars




www.gt-37.org


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I don't think the G78 14 came on any Judge. GTO's, yes. Judges----I don't think so. But the newest GTO (or car, period) I've owned is a '67 model.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

I agree. I think the factory information is more accurate in this case.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Buguy said:


> It says WL. Would that be maybe for "white letter" or maybe "white line"?


1970 GTO's came factory with the bias-ply glass belted tires. The Judge option included G70 x 14 blackwall bias-ply glass belted tires. However, I found this description, "generically described as "G70 x 14" _Blackwall _Wide Oval Tires with Raised White Letters"

Also from what I read, there were a number of tire suppliers/makers so there could be a number of variations used depending on what tire the car actually left the factory on. Seems Firestone Wide Ovals was one of them and it appears the Goodyear Polyglass white letter tires was another.

WL = White Line, not white letter.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Super interesting information. Thanks for posting guys!


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Buguy said:


> Super interesting information. Thanks for posting guys!


HMM 🤔🤔🤷‍♂️


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

Buguy said:


> Super interesting information. Thanks for posting guys!


Being mine is never going to be "perfect" ....going to run what I like !!! 😂🤣😂


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

We will see how this shakes out. I have a couple guys interested in buying and i have a few interesting trade offers too. I think i already mentioned it, but my car is in a trailer on some property my boss owns. It's not super easily accessed, so I'm going to grab it and bring the trailer to the shop. Gonna dig it out in the next few days and see exactly what i have. I haven't really seen it in 15 years.
The dust less blasting guy is going to be at the shop soon doing a little Datsun, so i may see if he will do my car while he's there. Then i can make a real plan. If i still have it that is.
There are 2 low compression 455's and a 2 bbl 400 at the shop, and i have a line on an LS6/T56. So there are some options so far. No clue what will happen just yet.


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

O52 said:


> Tires moved up a letter with the introduction of the 68 models. Over the following years the standard tire aspect ratio would change from G77 to 78, 70, 60 then back to E70 for the 74 GTO.
> Radial tires were offered in 68 and 73/74 only.
> 
> And, the letter designation does not mean larger in size but increased weight rating. It's just by coincidence (  ) that tires got bigger to carry additional weight. Tire sizes are dependent on how each manufacturer met the specified letter weight rating.


There is a load range rating which is related to the amount/# of plies which a tire had ie 4 ply 6 ply 8 ply tire which designated load ranges B,C, AND D which are most common? G-70x14 the G and 70 is what is known as the aspect ratio. Height and width. This is what I remember from auto mechanics class I high school any way. The letters were replaced by a 3 digit number eventually....bias ply were ie. G-70x14....Early steel belted were GR-70x14 and eventually to what we have today ie 215/70x14. To all the experts.....am I pretty much on track ?????


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

You're almost right in what your shop teacher taught you but lets jump into the WayBack machine to the late 1960s when bias ply and the beginning of 'Wide Oval' tires were common.

Alpha numeric tire sizes were introduced as Original Equipment in the late 60s and became widely used in the early 70s. These tires were identified with a letter which indicated the tire's load capacity, followed by an "R" if radial ply construction, the tire's aspect ratio and wheel diameter.
So while G78-15, G70-15 and G60-15 sized tires are all rated to carry the same maximum load, their different aspect ratios resulted in tires with the overall diameters indicated below.


Tire SizeOverall DiameterSection WidthLoad CapacityG78-1528.0"8.4"1,620 lbs @ 32 psiG70-1527.5"8.6"1,620 lbs @ 32 psiG60-1526.4"9.7"1,620 lbs @ 32 psi



https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=45











Tire Size 101 - Mecum Magazine


The evolution of tire sizing




monthly.mecum.com





The letter before the aspect ratio did not indicate tire width only weight rating. Which is why a F or G tire from different manufacturers could be the same width but have different load carrying capacities. It just so happened that to carry a bigger load, the tires had to be wider. And of course the aspect ratio also determined the tire width but that was again, determined by each manufacturer.


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

O52 said:


> You're almost right in what your shop teacher taught you but lets jump into the WayBack machine to the late 1960s when bias ply and the beginning of 'Wide Oval' tires were common.
> 
> Alpha numeric tire sizes were introduced as Original Equipment in the late 60s and became widely used in the early 70s. These tires were identified with a letter which indicated the tire's load capacity, followed by an "R" if radial ply construction, the tire's aspect ratio and wheel diameter.
> So while G78-15, G70-15 and G60-15 sized tires are all rated to carry the same maximum load, their different aspect ratios resulted in tires with the overall diameters indicated below.
> ...


Ok...nowcthat you explained it it came flowing back the #s are the aspect ratio....it came back to me !!! 😂😂 78 series was.... 78% as high as it was wide and so on 70 would be 70% as 60 would be 60% ! I remember him explaining that now....My bad ! Been out of high school 43 yrs now ! 😂😂😂 glad we had this discussion it bought it back out of archives so to speak !!! Thanks 052 👍


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

It's a very confusing subject since tire size specifications have changed numerous times since the sixties. Not only US specs but European and Japanese as well.


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## 1970BurgundyJudge (8 mo ago)

I'm going with the G70x14 Wide Ovals on my car when its done.


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## Bopman (7 mo ago)

1970BurgundyJudge said:


> I'm going with the G70x14 Wide Ovals on my car when its done.


Not sure on mine yet as I still like a little wider tire on the rear....but who knows may go with the G-70x14 as well.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

The wide ovals look great on them. Kind of pricey though.


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## 1970BurgundyJudge (8 mo ago)

I'll go with the wide oval repops for shows and cruise ins but have another set on non-date coded wheels with Radial TAs or Cooper Cobras for driving around. I also have a set of 15 inch Cragars with Radial TAs that I can put on when I feel like it.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I think Cragars are cool!


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Dug the car out yesterday. Quarter panels are a bit worse than i remember. I thought i could just patch them, but it looks like i might have to replace one of them for sure.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

After watching Mecum yesterday and seeing a '70 Convertible RA4 go for an even million bucks, and other '69-'70 Judges pull in 180k to 500k per copy, I would say that getting this '70 back on the road with Pontiac Power would be a solid plan.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

Also, someone asked a few pages back about front valance chrome, and mine does have that. I don't see anything about it on the build sheet, but it is there.


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## Buguy (17 d ago)

I have a couple guys interested in buying it, if it doesnt sell in the next few days i will be starting on it. 
I found another Pontiac engine at the shop, but unfortunately, it is a 557 block. Does have the ok 6x8 heads, but i would most likely end up just building one of the 455's and do a set of Eheads.


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