# Removing Woodruff key from crankshaft



## ragtopgoat (Sep 26, 2019)

I’ve removed the timing gears and chains and it looks like the Woodruff key has seen some previous abuse and does not want to come out. I’ve tried a punch and a hammer as well as a side cutters to no avail. Can somebody suggest a trick to getting this out? Should I consider using Mapp gas? The scars on the crankshaft make me think someone had tried to remove it before.


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## Sick467 (Oct 29, 2019)

Stubborn woodruff keys can often be jarred loose by tapping one end (the very end) of the key, like you were trying to drive it deeper in the keyway, which should pop the other end up and out. I would suggest the end away from the scarring (opposite the end). This way you don't drive the scar deeper into the keyway. If that don't do it, try some back and forth tapping on one end then the other. Once it starts moving, it will get easier and once you get the shaft end popping out, you can use a hammer and punch to work it further out. Just keep you hammer and punch from contacting the shaft. Some penetrating oil might give an edge.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

What he said, my exact thought when I saw the pix, but I did need a cigarette after your description 🤣


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## ragtopgoat (Sep 26, 2019)

I’ve tried hitting the front-end of the key with a drift and also tried putting the old crank sprocket on, with the key misaligned and hitting a piece of wood against the gear with a hammer, trying to push the key out. Is applying heat a bad idea?
Part of the challenge is the key is in the 2 o’clock position (sprockets dots aligned at 12/6). The PS/Alt bracket is interfering with getting a drift over the key to hit it inward at each end, as suggested. Is it risky to rotate the crank c-clockwise to move the key at 12, the rotate it back? I’m being careful to keep the crank and cam in position before I install the new timing gear.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

How about soaking with penetrating oil although it doesn't look rusty, can you get your hands on some freon and shrink it? Some heat should be ok if you don't go to much and take the temper out of anything. Or a Dremel tool and zip the key in half long ways.


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## Sick467 (Oct 29, 2019)

These things don't just pull out after living there for so long. Your pic looks really good as far as the lack of rust and crud, it should come out pretty easy. It's hard to know what you're putting behind the hammer, but I've seen much more rusted shafts and keys that come out with a drift and hammer. Of course, you crank is in the motor so, don't go putting a big arm behind the hammer. Put the drift in line with the crank shaft and catch the forward end of the key...give it some good love taps, driving the key towards the back of the car. If you can get a slightly upward angle on it...it will help.


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## Sick467 (Oct 29, 2019)

If you put heat to it, put the heat on the shaft so that the keyway heats up and expands (opens up). This will open the keyway up compared to heating the key and making it expand which will make it get larger and tighter in the keyway. I'm not experienced with the MAP torches, but the most heat I would use would be with a small propane bottle torch...just something to dry it out and then hit it with penetrating oil to draw it back in. I'm pretty sure you can get it out without heat.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Yes, you can use Mapp gas. Never any good reason to fight metal, when heat will do the work for you. then hit an end in, as others have mentioned.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

My advice, as a professional, is to leave it alone and dress down the burrs and run it. It will be fine for the next 40 years. 
This is a classic example of 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'. 
I would have left it alone.


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## 1969GPSJ (Feb 26, 2020)

if you know someone in a body shop see if they can let you use a unispot stud welder (AKA stinger) to attach a single pin to the woodruff key and tug it out just make sure you get good contact on the key this is the way the body guys are removing the the hard to reach dents


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I have a small flat bladed screw driver without handle that is the width of the keyway. I would fit it into the tiny space between the key and cut in the crank. Then hit the end of the screw driver and it would follow the contour of the keyway slot and go under the key like a wedge and lift it up enough to break it loose and then remove it with a few pops of a hammer and chisel at the lifted up portion. The cheapo screw driver blade will no longer straight, but curved. Still have it (nope, I just looked for it and remembered I did a tool draw clean-out some time back and tossed it as it was only good for that one time use). I also would install a new key after doing it this way - but I got it out.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

PontiacJim said:


> I have a small flat bladed screw driver without handle that is the width of the keyway. I would fit it into the tiny space between the keyway and cut in the crank. Then hit the end of the screw driver and it would follow the contour of the keyway slot and go under the keyway like a wedge and lift it up enough to break it loose and then remove it with a few pops of a hammer and chisel at the lifted up portion. The screw driver blade is no longer straight, but curved. Still have it. I also would *install a nw keyway after doing it this way* - but I got it out.


How are you going to install a new keyway without removing the crank to re-weld and repair it?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

geeteeohguy said:


> How are you going to install a new keyway without removing the crank to re-weld and repair it?


Not following you? You remove the old key, and install a new key. Why would I have to remove the crank to re-weld and repair it? I didn't, nor ever had to, remove a crank to re-weld it. Soft cheapo screw driver bends - not using it as a chisel, just a wedge. Did you read that part? Then follow up with a chisel or hard flat bar or whatever to hit the lifted edge of the key, not the crankshaft, and knock it out.

The key is that piece that goes into the machined keyway slot in the crank. Maybe you are confused? The key is replaceable and easily purchased from most any Pontiac parts supplier, or even an auto store. Some call it a "woodruff key" - (which it technically is), just have always known it as a keyway by name. BTW, a camshaft uses a key as well and they can be had with different offsets.

Just a suggestion that may work as it did for me.

Drawing enclosed.


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## AlaGreyGoat (Jul 6, 2006)

Always thought the "key" was the removable piece and the "keyway" was the slot the key fits in.

Larry


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## ragtopgoat (Sep 26, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> I have a small flat bladed screw driver without handle that is the width of the keyway. I would fit it into the tiny space between the keyway and cut in the crank. Then hit the end of the screw driver and it would follow the contour of the keyway slot and go under the keyway like a wedge and lift it up enough to break it loose and then remove it with a few pops of a hammer and chisel at the lifted up portion. The screw driver blade is no longer straight, but curved. Still have it. I also would install a nw keyway after doing it this way - but I got it out.


Ah, I like this idea and I have just the small screwdriver to "sacrifice" for this purpose!

Lots of good suggestions, including the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" suggestion by @geeteeohguy. I'm torn, as I'm inclined to replace the key with a replacement key I have, and I've had some other unexpected failures with this motor, so I like the idea of bringing things into a known state. But I'm also worried that if I continue to bash on this key and still can't get it out, I'll go past the point of being able to clean it up and reuse it.

How hard can I pound on this key before I start doing damage to a thrust bearing or something else supporting the crankshaft? I've been using a modest ball peen hammer. Swings are limited of course, with the engine in the car, but I can get more mass behind the blows with a bigger hammer. Thougts?


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

metal moves every time you hit it. you may not see it move but it does. i would use a brass punch or rod and hit in a rocking motion to at least see movement if you can get it to move it will come out. all the suggestions are good ones. this is just my suggestion. filing the burrs would be a good idea before trying to drive it out.put tape around the key if your afraid of the punch damaging the crank.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

AlaGreyGoat said:


> Always thought the "key" was the removable piece and the "keyway" was the slot the key fits in.
> 
> Larry


You are 100% correct. I had to look that up as I *have always* called the "key" a "keyway" that fits into the slot. Everyone understood me and I always got what I needed.

So I corrected my post to reflect the correct terms and their use. 

Wikipedia: "a *key* is a machine element used to connect a rotating machine element to a shaft. The key prevents relative rotation between the two parts and may enable torque transmission. For a key to function, the shaft and rotating machine element must have a *keyway* and a *keyseat*, which is a slot and pocket in which the key fits. The whole system is called a *keyed joint"*

"*Woodruff keys* are semicircular, fitting partly into a circular segment keyway with the remainder fitting into a longitudinal slot keyway in the mating part. The circular segment can be cut directly by plunge cutting with a circular Woodruff cutter without any reliefs. The main advantage of the Woodruff key is the elimination of milling near shaft shoulders, where stress concentrations,[4] and concentricity would be affected.[3] The latter is particularly important for high speed operation. The more exact fit of the key and keyway also reduces play, and stress concentrations in, and improves the reliability of the key.* An additional advantage is a stuck key can be removed from a shaft with a hammer blow, the circular profile will push the key out of the slot."*

This type of key was developed by William N. Woodruff of Hartford Connecticut in 1888.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

ponchonlefty said:


> metal moves every time you hit it. you may not see it move but it does. i would use a brass punch or rod and hit in a rocking motion to at least see movement if you can get it to move it will come out. all the suggestions are good ones. this is just my suggestion. filing the burrs would be a good idea before trying to drive it out.put tape around the key if your afraid of the punch damaging the crank.



Here is a very old photo I dug up when I was younger. Here I am knocking out the "key" from the "keyway" cut into a Pontiac crankshaft. Still was able to use my home made forged chisel and Craftsman made stone hammer without doing damage - well, maybe just a little.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> You are 100% correct. I had to look that up as I *have always* called the "key" a "keyway" that fits into the slot. Everyone understood me and I always got what I needed.
> 
> So I corrected my post to reflect the correct terms and their use.
> 
> ...


Talk slower and I'll really need a cigarette, kinda the same principle as a biscut joint for wood except there's two keyways and one key...or the "biscut" which swells because it's a softer more porus material with a liquid like glue making a tight joint 😉


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

PontiacJim said:


> Here is a very old photo I dug up when I was younger. Here I am knocking out the "key" from the "keyway" cut into a Pontiac crankshaft. Still was able to use my home made forged chisel and Craftsman made stone hammer without doing damage - well, maybe just a little.
> 
> View attachment 158317


i like your humor my man.


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## lust4speed (Jul 5, 2019)

Leaving it alone is the best advice, but if you are insistent upon removing it then remember that the key is very happy where it is at and the contour of the key is matched by the contour of the keyway. In other words, you can hammer all day long and you are just smashing the key against the crank. Simply find a suitable drift and drive the key straight to the rear and it will follow the slope up and the key will slide back and out. There is one tricky spot where the key will finally butt up against the crank journal and further help is needed. This is where you insert a big stout screwdriver or other appropriate wedge and simply pry it up and out.

Here's a few cranks since the first of the year that I've removed the keys out of. Little harder standing upright and free but still not that hard.


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## Machinest-guy (Jul 19, 2019)

Here is another method to remove keys from shafts with key ways. I've done this for decades on thousands of crankshafts. You fit a sleeve (or pipe) over the crank snout. which bears against the key. Whack the pipe with a brass hammer. The key will move back and up and fall out. Every time. Perfect. And you never hit the crank directly or pry against the keyway edges or bash it with a drift punch and scar the surface.




























The pipe sleeve has a chamfer side and a straight side. The straight side is for flat keys. The chamfer side is for tapered or Woodruff keys. Most of the crank snouts can be fit with just a couple of sized pipe sleeves. The tough keys to remove are on tapered axle shafts but a similar tool can be made from a junk hub or brake drum. Never hit a crank with any serious force directly with a hammer or hit it anyway but parallel to the crank center line. Never strike the nose either. That pretty much means using the right tool for the job - a sleeve and a puller. Best to all. Ladd


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## ragtopgoat (Sep 26, 2019)

Machinest-guy said:


> Here is another method to remove keys from shafts with key ways. I've done this for decades on thousands of crankshafts. You fit a sleeve (or pipe) over the crank snout. which bears against the key. Whack the pipe with a brass hammer. The key will move back and up and fall out. Every time. Perfect. And you never hit the crank directly or pry against the keyway edges or bash it with a drift punch and scar the surface.
> 
> View attachment 158454
> 
> ...


That sleeve looks like a nice tool to have on hand. I tried a similar approach using the old timing gear that I had removed and was not going to reuse. Slid it on, specifically not lining up the keyway so that the sleeve of the gear hit the Woodruff key. I put a block of wood on the end of the gear and pounded on it a few times, but saw no change or movement in the key. Enough to put a divot in the sleeve of the timing gear. I just didn’t have the nerve to hit it hard enough to get it out. I suspect the sleeve you have pictured would be much more effective.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Notice the slight convex cone to machinist's sleeve? That gives a big mechanical advantage to removing the sleeve, IMO. 
But like I said before, a tight key is a happy key and will not give you problems like a loose one will. I have left 90% of them alone for the past 45 years on hundreds and hundreds of cars and have never had it bite me. The ones I remove are on engine or rear end overhauls. The ones on my 1915 Ford were about 3 inches long!


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## ragtopgoat (Sep 26, 2019)

geeteeohguy said:


> Notice the slight convex cone to machinist's sleeve? That gives a big mechanical advantage to removing the sleeve, IMO.
> But like I said before, a tight key is a happy key and will not give you problems like a loose one will. I have left 90% of them alone for the past 45 years on hundreds and hundreds of cars and have never had it bite me. The ones I remove are on engine or rear end overhauls. The ones on my 1915 Ford were about 3 inches long!


That was what I decided to do. I cleaned up the burrs and left it in place. Good advice!


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## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

As @Baaad65 mentioned, you might have luck freezing the key. I've used products like this for decades to test TFMs and anything that I need cold..
Claire 813 12 Oz Chewing Gum Remover | ShopAtDean


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