# Bear's Stumped...



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Ok, I'm about at my wits end over a problem I've been having with my '69, aka 'the Beast'.

Symptoms: Runs great, until I hammer it. Then just about the 1-2 upshift, it quits - I mean flat quits, falls on its face, nothing, nada. At first I suspected ignition, but I've managed to rule that out. It's definitely fuel related. When "it happens", if I pull over and quickly raise the hood, I can see the fuel pressure going into the carb (I have a gauge on the regulator) has all but disappeared. Instead of the carefully adjusted 6.5 psi at the regulator output port, there's 2-3 psi, maybe less, and the need is fluctuating. Whats weird is that when I start it cold, the pressure is rock solid where it's supposed to be --- and will stay that way no matter how long I let it sit idling, until I drive the car and hammer it --- then it happens again.

Fuel system, back to front:
*Factory tank, modified to move the fuel pickup to a rear sump. (I still have the factory pickup (a new one with a 1/2" outlet port that I'm not using) in the tank just for the fuel gauge sending unit, but the fuel pickup itself is blocked off.) 
*From the rear sump pickup point, -8 AN braided steel (about 2 feet) to a large RobbMc cartridge filter (100 micron). 
*From the filter, probably another 4 to 6 feet of -8 AN braided line routed inside the rear and side of the drivers side frame rail and along the rear suspension crossmember to approximately the point where the factory fuel line would have connected. 
*At that point it connects to 1/2" stainless hard line from Inline Tube that follows the factory routing where it appears again out of the same hole in the front crossmember where the factory line would have terminated. 
*From there, again we go to -8 AN braided line to the input of a RobbMc 1100 hp mechanical pump, 
*From the pump, more -8 AN to another large RobbMc filter connected directly to the input of (you guessed it) a RobbMc deadhead regulator 
*The regulator and filter are mounted crosswise just above the water pump. From the regulator, -6 AN to the carb. 
*The regulator has a RobbMc fitting for a vapor return line (even though it's a deadhead regulator) which is connected via -4 an to the repro Inline Tube factory style return line, back along the factory routing, and connected to the factory vapor return fitting on the tank via more -4 an braided line.

What I've done so far:
Pulled apart both filters and examined their bronze elements. Both were clean inside and blowing the elements out with compressed air didn't reveal any trash in them.
Rebuilt the regulator with a fresh diaphragm even though the "old" one looked fine and didn't seem to have any leaks.
Installed a second, brand new RobbMc 1100 pump adjusted to provide about 10.5 psi on the output side.
When I've caught it "doing it" after a test run while the fuel pressure is in the basement, I've hurried around and removed the gas cap on the tank to see if it might be a venting problem ---- no change, doesn't help - pressure still low.

I guess my next move is to drop the tank, remove the sending unit assembly and see if I can find something loose inside the tank that could be finding its way to the rear fuel pickup under acceleration. It's a job I don't really want to do, but at this point like I said, I'm stumped. 

I guess maybe I could completely remove the filter elements from both filters and see if that changes anything... the only things left after that are the lines themselves.

Anyone ever hear of any AN braided lines that deteriorated inside and plugged up from the ethanol content in pump gas?

Another thought I just had... wondering if having the regulator/filter mounted where I do is allowing them to pick up too much heat from the water pump? I've got them mounted with a rubber insulated strap around the body of the filter and seems like the fuel flow would tend to keep everything cool but still...

Bear


----------



## snoslyd (Mar 9, 2010)

Dumb question, Bear...do you have the filter sock on the pickup tube in the tank? Maybe the suction at the tube is sucking up the sock?


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Actually, it's been so long since I put the tank together that I don't remember if I installed the sock or not. It's definitely something that I'll check out.

Bear


----------



## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Bear, sounds like the pump is sucking so hard and fast it cannot deliver the fuel when you hammer down. As a suggestion before you pull the tank take off one fuel filter and try then the other and try.......it may be to restrictive with that strong pump and two filters and that demand.....maybe just an in tank sock and one in line filter.....

Might just check before you pull the tank......fuel filters that are located on the side rail, say on your pickup are steel lines in and out...
As that pump draws the steel line cannot collapse and the fuel flows.....do you have a flexible line on the pump side of the rear filter?..

That would be a spot I would suspect....if you eliminate the filter there as a test a hose itself may not compress as the filter even a new one has some restriction to flow, and if that's demand from that 1100 pump is real strong....

Not sure just saying a place to check....you will get it good luck...

But it restricts on high demand......flow cannot keep up with demand....if fuel they say that rear filter cannot, then hose just ahead may collapse and pump sucks air and loses pressure.........maybe...


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

There's not even one single inch of flex line anywhere on that car.... what isn't stainless hard line, is braided steel AN hose - even on the vapor return side. I might just try pulling the cartridges out of the filters just for grins though...


































(I know the welds are ugly --- they were nice when I first did them, but they leaked --- so considering all the hoopla and nail biting I went through in order to feel reasonably safe about welding on a *used* fuel tank - twice - no way was I going to not get it sealed and have to do it a third time  )

Bear


----------



## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Bear, have you tried disconnecting the fuel line from the carb and running the fuel into a bucket to see how much volume you get in a specific amount of time?


----------



## younggto (Nov 22, 2013)

What is the engine size, cam size, and carb; I had the same problem using similar components. 


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


----------



## younggto (Nov 22, 2013)

Also, I would change the 90 degree fitting off the sump to a 135 degree one. 


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


----------



## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Bear, I would suggest just try it with the rear filter and filter housing out and a line spliced in. You could rig up an easy screw in an line, because removing the element may or may not leave a possibilitity of an air pocket or Vacumn when pump pulls hard....

Also think young' suggestion on the 90 degree fitting is a good one....you will get it...you have diagnosed a lot already......

When demand is high and the pump sucks hard fuel cannot be delivered.....it still seems that two filters and a regulator, and maybe a sock on sender unit al combine to make the draw too restrictive....by removing that rear filter for a test some restriction is removed.

From looking at your front set-up don't think that heat would be that great there as your fan is directly blowing on that whole set up....


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I bit the bullet and pulled the tank last night. Much to my dismay, I found nothing obvious. I'm having a vague memory of something I might have changed after the fire that I'm going to check out later, to see if it's a real memory or something I just thought about doing at the time. With everything open, I did blow out all the lines with compressed air - they were all free and clean. I took the rear filter apart last night also and reassembled the empty canister with no element inside and blew compressed air through it, then did the same thing with the element installed --- no detectable difference in flow.
With the way I welded that sump on, there's still a chance there could be something inside there that I just can't see - I'm going to try to figure out a way to examine it more closely, but from the parts of the tank that I can see with the sending unit removed, it looks pretty doggone clean.

























Bear


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Maybe.....

So, a while ago I picked the tank up and shook it hard - thought I heard something metallic but wasn't sure so I snaked a telescoping magnet through the opening for the sending unit and down through one of those holes in the previous posts photos, and shook some more. I thought maybe I heard a click like when a magnet snatches up a dropped bolt... when I pulled the magnet back out, this was attached.










It's a piece of what looks to be maybe welding slag, or perhaps rust (but it's very stiff and not rust colored so I'm not sure about it being rust). It's about 3/8" wide and a tad over 1/2" long. Big enough to really impede fuel flow out of the sump outlet if it gets sucked up against it, too large to pass through it no matter what angle it happens to hit at (I tried to see if it would slide back in through the fitting and it wouldn't).

I *think* this is the source of the problem, although I'm so snake bit over this thing right now I'm a little skeered to put it all back together :banghead:

Bear


----------



## 3GTOs (Jul 9, 2014)

I think you are right. You're holding the problem in your hand. Good luck Sir, you could use some. Please post what happens the next time you hammer it.

3GTOs


----------



## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

I think you have found the problem!
If it worked before and the pump is good it can only be a clogged filter or a plugged line.
Looking at the pics to me the fitting going into the sump is too low so there is no space for sediment or a piece like that to sit below the inlet.
My first thought was sediment or an obstruction at that fitting.
Put it back together and run it.


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I'm declaring victory. arty:

I put it back together yesterday and drove it... pulled hard through all 3 gears. 0


Bear


----------



## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Fantastic.....GREAT detective work!!! (And what a frustrating experience.)


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Thanks for the kind words, but I'm not sure my detective work was all that "great" ---- I'd already touched every other part of the fuel system before giving up and dropping the tank. :banghead:


As a side note, before I re-installed everything I bought a new tool that allowed me to really check it out.
I highly recommend these --- now... :laugh2:

The Whistler Group WIC5200 - Wireless Inspection Camera | O'Reilly Auto Parts

Bear


----------



## oldgto66 (Dec 31, 2011)

Years ago I had similar problem with my 66 gto tripower . Ended up being a fine pin hole in fuel line which wasn't leaking but had a damp spot at pin hole when I finally found it. I changed the line out and it cured the problem. Hope this might be help you out.


----------



## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Nice work Bear, you stayed with it.....perseverance pays off......

Take it out for some Texas Brisket, you earned it!


----------



## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

Inspection cameras are great. For whatever reason, I often stop at Thrift shops as you never know what someone is going to get rid of. Awhile back, I stopped at one in a small town 100 miles North of me while I was managing a job up there. Tucked away in a back room was a Snap-On Borescope that was marked at $125. I offered them $100. The girls at the desk had to call the owner, as it was on consignment, and he agreed to $100. This scope Bluetooth transmits back to the remote screen, so I could conceivably mount the scope under the hood and go for a drive while watching the video inside the car.

I love a good deal.


----------



## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Nice work Bear! Glad you got this figured out. Don't you just HATE it when weird issues are unknowingly 'self inflicted'?


----------

