# HELP! Completely stumped on a front suspension probmel



## Cletus (Dec 8, 2012)

Hi Folks,

I have a 66 that I did a frame-off restoration on, and I replaced every part on the front end of the car and upgraded to 4WD disc brakes. I had to upgrade to 15" wheels, and opted for the 15x7 Rally One wheels with 235/60's that I somehow convinced myself would fit. So aside from the fact that they rub on all 4 corners of the car, the front suspension and steering have a problem I didn't expect to encounter. 


The steering doesn't return to center at all. It's been aligned carefully, but to no avail. It has a new steering box and pump (and every other part) but no joy. It's like in the old days when you had worn out ball joints and a steering box that was loose and had the lash cranked down too tight. I can go around a sharp corner and let go of the wheel and it won't move a bit.

Any ideas? Anyone encounter this? Are the 235/60's too wide for the amount of caster we can extract from the original A Arms? 

One other clue comes to mind. When stopped, if I rev up the engine a bit the wheel turns to the right. Never seen that before. I think both the pump and the box are Cardone parts...

Also, any tips for keeping the trim rings on those aftermarket Rally One wheels? I have lost 2 already. 

Thanks, 

Cletus


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*'66 steering*

We're running 245/60r15's (a scant wider than yours) on our '66 Lemans convertible with original power drum brakes and RallyII 15/7 rims, and they juuust fit with no rubbing whatsoever.And they return quite swell after cornering. Also running original A frames. You probably need offset rims if you're running disks. I suspect that may be your problem. How much of an offset, i'm not quite sure of that, other members on this forum would definitely know the answer to that one. We had a new frame and springs installed 6 years ago (just got it back last year- long story, another post for the future)-when we got the car back, the positive camber was pegged out max. After pulling it apart, I found the the guy who installed the springs didn't make sure that they were seated in the upper housings properly, making any negative camber nearly impossible.There is a small inspection hole-tough to see, but can be done.(can also look at the front of car on a level surface and see if the front tires are standing nearly straight up and down. I would check that, first off). I aligned ours myself with a tape measure and by eye-take your hands off the wheel and it goes down the road straight as an arrow! I actually saw the problem you described about the wheel turning when you rev the engine about 30 years ago with my '56 New Yorker-turned out to be a sticking diverting or spool valve within the power steering box-(forgot exactly what I did to fix it, but remember it was a relitively easy fix). Possibly that steering box is defective? Recheck those rim offsets first, before you condemn the box, though. Hope you get those problems worked out soon! G.


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## Cletus (Dec 8, 2012)

Thanks for the tips. I called Ames Performance to find out if anyone else had experienced problems like this, and they said that they hadn't heard complaints about the 15x7 Rally 1 wheels they sell as being the culprit for rubbing or this strange centering issue. I had my springs out (of course) so there's a chance I horked up the install. I will investigate and report back. The tires rub on the right side of the front, and both rears are rubbing a bit on the outside. I will find out what the offset is of those wheels and report back so others don't follow in my footsteps. The car handles surprisingly well for such a dinosaur. 

Cletus


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## leeklm (Mar 11, 2012)

I have the same wheels on my 66 and no issues (see pics). If I am remembering correctly, the fronts are 225/70/15 and rear is 245/60/15, but I need to double check... The fronts would rub a little when cornering, but went away once I installed a heavier front sway bar. I think my buddy (runs alignment rack at GM dealership) did the alignment to factory specs, or close to it. 

Regarding trim rings... The friction tangs on the rings will leave a mark on the wheel where they make contact. Clean that area well with some brake clean, and gob a little silicone at the point where the tangs sit once installed. Now when you put the rings on, the silicone will help provide a little extra holding power once it dries. Another good option is the black silicone maker from "The Right Stuff", which comes in the small pressurized can. This stuff has better holding power than silicone. There may be better ideas out there, but I have not lost a ring yet.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*tire rubbing*

ooh. Forgot one thing- when I got those big tires on, I did have a little rubbing on both sides at first when making sharp corners....the inner fender well was bent slightly on the right side, on the very bottom edge, making contact with the tread. Bent it back, then adjusted BOTH inner fender well to cowl retaining brackets. You'll have to remove tires, make sure car is securely stabilized (jack stands) and loosen bracket bolts (from under wheel well) and the other inner fender bolts(ones in the middle of fender well, not on the fender lip), and put your foot on the inner fender well and push up and in,(the inner fender WILL move)then tighten bolts. For me, it was INSTANT gratification!!!! NEVER any noise after that!!!!! Also, there is tons of room on the rear tire to fender clearances! G. P.S.- LOVE THOSE REDLINES!!!!!


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

What spindles did you use when you converted to disc brakes? Wheel width won't generally affect wheel return for on-center steering. Lack of caster will. Depending on your now modified front end geometry, you need to dial more positive caster in to get your wheels to return to center. Picture a motorcycle: a chopper has a ton of positive caster, a trials bike not so much. Caster adds stability and self-centering steering to the equation. Since yours is modified, and has big radial tires, I would try to get at least a degree or three positive caster out of it. As a side note, the "wrong" spindles can totally screw up the caster adjustment and also the ackerman principle (tracking in turns) that the car was engineered with originally.


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## Cletus (Dec 8, 2012)

Hi Folks,

Thanks for the tips. I will re-examine the clearance issues and try "influencing" the fender wells. I tore into it tonight and observed that the collective links are pretty tight. I got the disk brake/spindle kit from "the right stuff" but it was advertised as "direct replacement" meaning no change to geometry... I noticed that the center link to idler arm connection is wrong...one or the other isn't right. the stud is either too small or the hole is too big in the link...never a dull moment. I still need to validate the backspacing on the wheels. I am going to replace the power steeting pump as a precautionary measure (it's new, but they are cheap and I would like to remove it from the equation). I think the springs may be a bit saggy (one of the few original parts remaining)....could those contribute? I will get to the bottom of this and report. 

I love the idea of the silicone on the Rally 1 rings. By the way, I contacted the manufacturer of those (I bought them from Ames) but the Mfr says those rings aren't designed for that wheel. When I lost one, I bought one from them direct and they sent a deeper dish. Looked ugly, but stays on...



Cletus


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*front end*

Like geeteeohguy said- re-check those spindles make and sure they're the correct ones. Also, like I said previously- make sure the springs are properly positioned in their housings on top.(And turned into the notches correctly- I about ripped my hair out over that one!).You'll never get it to align if those are not in their upper housings correctly. G. I might be wrong, but I don't think the pump would cause the problem you described.


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## Cletus (Dec 8, 2012)

*update*

Hi Folks,

I bought the spindles and all the front end parts from "All The Right Stuff Detailing" and I am not sure how to verify if they are correct. They assured me that the gear they sent would fit, but I have discovered that these folks don't really know GTO's. They sent the wrong center link and never could get me the right one, and also screwed up the control arm bushing order as well. Today, I discovered that the idler arm they gave me actually was incorrect as well. So, given their lousy performance so far, I am suspicous of the spindles. The idler arm was very stiff, and oversized, but I am not sure it would have offered that much resistance to keep the front from centering. I am not sure I can find that original paperwork on those spindles. I changed out the steering box (for the new one I had in originally) and I will test it out over the next couple days to see if there is any change.

Any suggestion on how I might validate those spindles? 

Also, all 4 wheels are rubbing with the Ames 15x7 and the BFG 235/60's. The alingment shop claims they tried to put as much caster in as possible. I read up on this prior to the second alignment attempt, but these things don't have that much adjustment? 

Thanks for all the tips. 

Cletus


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## Cletus (Dec 8, 2012)

*Update*

Here's a couple shots of the areas it's rubbing, front and rear. I think I can heat them and run the spots in with a body hammer, but it seems odd that others haven't encountered this. 

Cletus


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## jmt455 (Mar 26, 2012)

Those contact areas appear to be small; I would think a little persuasion with a dead blow hammer would take care of those.


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## Cletus (Dec 8, 2012)

*Rally 1 wheel backspacing update*

Hi Folks,

The Rally 1 wheels come from Wheel Vintiques and have 4 1/4" rear spacing. You can't see it in the photo, but if you go to the website you will see that they specify different trim rings. I think the RTV trick will work to hold on the better looking shallow rings. 

I suspect that 225 60's probably would clear just fine, but the 235's are just a smidge too wide. 

I will be using percussive maintenance to make them fit. 

The update from the folks at "All The Right Stuff" is that the spindles are the same for all A models. So according to them, they should not be influencing the wheel return issue. 

Cletus


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

You're saying that The Right Stuff's A-body spindles are all the same, but that does not mean that they are the same as the original GM spindles. If you have an original GM spindle, you can pull a wheel and brake rotor and take some measurements to verify that the parts are the same (or not). My bet is that the spindle height/position will be different.


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## Cletus (Dec 8, 2012)

I wish I had held on to those old spindles...


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## Cletus (Dec 8, 2012)

Update:

Managed to heat/hammer in the fender wells enough for all 4 wheels to clear. So, at least on my car, the 235/60's on 15x7's fit now...barely. 

Still no joy on the front end "returning to center". Swapped out the steering box, changed the idler to the proper part...

Stumped. 

Cletus


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*steering*

I hate to sound like a broken record, but... Did you verify that the front coils were correctly installed into their upper housings,and turned properly into the notches? Did you verify that the front wheels are straight up and down in accordance with the rear wheels when viewed from the front of the car on a level surface? (If they aren't, then check your camber first to to verify spring alignment, as stated above). And the springs weren't busted? Did you verify if those are the correct spindles/part #'s? (The steering axis inclination gives you the most amount of return on the wheel, but this factor is built into the spindle, and not adjustable-A good caster setting by a competent technician will do wonders).I aligned my wheels myself -course, you need a laser eye and a tape measure,though! Much better than some pathetic misalignment done by some incompetent kid with pants hanging down to their knees declaring "it's aligned"! (I'll have that checked, by and by). If there's no binding, it's got to be one of those aforementioned items. Luck be with you!


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## Cletus (Dec 8, 2012)

I wil check those springs next. The front ride height looks to be about 1/2" low (or maybe it's worse than that since the tire wheel setup is slightly taller). I have just under 9" at the front rocker. Like a nitwit I chucked out my old spindles, but I can compare them to my other goat that has the original drums. 

Cletus


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The thing that returns the steering wheel to center is the alignment angles and geometry of the suspension parts related to the front wheels....pretty much not the steering box. It would have to be binding so hard that it could overcome the weight and inertia of your moving car....not likely. Too little caster? Likely. Wrong SAI angles? Likely. Coil springs not seated will also cause other geometry to be off. Everything has to work together: ride height, spindle height, steering axis inclination, camber, caster, toe. Google SAI, Bump Steer, and Ackerman principle and start reading. You'll learn a lot about how all this stuff comes into play.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*steering*

Don't worry about the curb height either at this point with those larger tires on it. Those specs only apply to vehicles with stock tires and stock suspension.


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## Cletus (Dec 8, 2012)

So you guys don't think it's worth doing the front springs while I am in there? Pretty sure my 235/60 on 15's were slightly taller than the overall height of the 14" set up. I am thinking it was 26.5" which would suggest that they have sagged pretty badly over the years. Oddly enought, the springs are the only thing I didn't replace...seemed to ride well before the restoration, with no issues on the wheel return. I will report back once I get it back on the lift.

Cletus


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## the65gto (Oct 9, 2008)

My original config was factory spindle's and offset 14" aftermarket wheels (1.25 offset to outside) was a very tight fit. The corner of the front fenders had to be adjusted to clearance the tires, I had a body shop move the rear fenders out for the rear about 1". When I switched from drums to disc spindles from Right stuff, the old 14" rims would just miss the caliper, (they were offset to the outside), however wanted to get new 15" rims. I made sure they were not offset at all (0)to eliminate earlier problems thinking I would go back to the original spacing. Result, the new spindles had moved the tire/wheel combination to the outside more than the old spindle. I talked to the local tire kingdom guy and told him I wanted to fit the rim and tire combination as a test fit maybe changing the tire size if it did not fit. We worked up a deal on one tire/one wheel and I test fit it, it was ok. So ordered 3 more tire/rim combo's. Tires are 235/60-15 BGF RTA. Result now is the new combo is less offset overall than the originals, but not by much.


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## GhostTown (Jan 25, 2011)

I am about ready to install a new set of front springs and shocks, so I've been waiting to see how this thread shakes out. I've sorta run out of time though, since the springs are finally here.

How the front springs are suppose to seat into the upper housing really has me intrigued. 

Can someone talk a little more about how the springs are suppose to be installed correctly? Since I know to look for this, will it be fairly self evident as to how they are suppose to go if I'm paying attention while taking the old factory installed springs out?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Ghost, you can look up into the frame with a flashlight and see the spring stop that the end of the coil butts up against. It clocks into place. You could mark the spring itself on the side of the coils, so when it's seated, you'll at least know. Another thing, if it is not clocked correctly, it will be a real PITA to install, even harder than usual. Be careful and go slow. If unsure, get help. Installing front coils is not easy, and can cause injury/death if the spring pops out under compression. This is a high-labor job. Not high tech, but physically demanding and potentially hazardous. BE CAREFUL.


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## GhostTown (Jan 25, 2011)

Ok. I'll take a good look before attempting it and think about having it done by a shop before moving forward.

Thank you very much for both the insight, and the caution.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

after seeing a spring shoot off and put a hole through drywall and sheathing when i was young i make it a point to cable them to the frame when they are under compression during removal, better safe than sorry.


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## GhostTown (Jan 25, 2011)

The springs I am going to remove are so weak that there is about a 1/2 inch of play where the shock mounts at the top.

Now, I realize that doesn't give me a free pass to just start tearing the thing apart. However, they shouldn't present much load if I keep a large jack under the lower control arm while undoing the spindle, right?

LOL..... Maybe I should just take the car and the parts down to a local shop.

EDIT TO ADD: The car needs aligned right after the springs and shocks are put in. I also need new springs and shocks in the back as well, but I wanted to wait and see exactly where the front height is before purchasing the new rear springs. Will changing the rear springs effect the alignment? It shouldn't, right?


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## SDGoat619 (Mar 21, 2011)

I have rally II 15x7 on my 65 lemans with no rubbing. The rubber it 255/60/15 power drum. I am converting over to front disc as we speak. I hope i don't have any rubbing after my upgrade. 

Sent from my EVO using AutoGuide.Com Free App


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## SDGoat619 (Mar 21, 2011)

I also am doing all new upper and lower ball joints, control arm bushings, shocks and new shocks. I am also thinking about trimming half a coil off to drop the front a little bit 
Sent from my EVO using AutoGuide.Com Free App


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*front springs*

Yes ghost, changing the rear springs WILL affect affect alignment. As geeteeohguy said numerous times in this thread, any changes to original components will change the overall dynamics of the vehicle stance. I believe he even posted some threads to that effect. In the 1966 chassis shop manual, section 3-12,(front spring-remove and replace), there is a note that states: "Upper end of coil spring must be visible in frame pocket hole at upper control arm shaft". Mine was not. I found this out the hard way,(before the forum and before I got the manual). Some nimrod installed the springs cockeyed at the top, and I couldn't figure what the deal was. Could not get negative camber at all. Tires were pegged out MAX to the outside at the top. Found the hole, corrected the spring, all is well. I believe you need to leave like a half inch or so from the top end of the spring to the edge of the notch in the housing to prevent binding and noise. http://www.gtoforum.com/imhttp://ww...s/willy_nilly.gifages/smilies/willy_nilly.gif


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## GhostTown (Jan 25, 2011)

Dang...

This makes me think that I DO need to attempt the front spring change myself so I can set the car back down in my own garage and look at the ride height after, then buy the rear springs based on what I see, and THEN FINALLY have it aligned. 

I don't want to pay for and deal with the hassle of having the alignment done twice just to have a couple days to think about ride height.


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## olde-goat (Feb 1, 2009)

*front springs*

I have changed springs on a few of my vehicles and I found that using a spring compressor made the job go easier/safer. I have seen this install on various TV shows and all looks very easy just using a floor jack. Most of us tend to work by ourselves with no one around to get help if the spring decides to take an unscheduled trip and could cause a serious injury. The spring when compressed made clocking and lower A arm ball joint attachment much easier. I bought mine a few years back but don't recall that it was all that expensive; maybe $30.00. Took a lot of the anxiety out of the equation. Just my 2cents...


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## GhostTown (Jan 25, 2011)

Since I might be doing this a couple times, just buying a spring compressor might be a great idea. At some point this summer I would like to attempt removing every thing again for new bushings, ball joints, clean up & paint. I would have to remove them myself during that time because I would need the car and all of the parts right here in my own garage.

EDIT TO ADD: I've been looking into spring compressors since reading olde-goat's advice. Seems like the route to take. I can buy a high quality one for $42, or use O'Rielly Auto Parts for free any time I like (a "buy and return" process).

Since learning about this (seems so obvious now) I've been scanning the web reading different tutorials, how to's, and general threads here and there concerning spring replacement and have learned a lot. Thank you olde-goat.


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## Cletus (Dec 8, 2012)

Just a quick update on the nagging "steering wheel won't return to center" issue, I haven't had a chance to get it on the lift but I intend to check that spring positioning issue next and get it realigned. When I replaced the idler arm with the correct part and swapped the steering box back out for the new one, it all feels funky again. 

Cletus


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## Cletus (Dec 8, 2012)

Update on the mystery "won't return" problem. Took the car to the "line up shop" in Portland, well recommended by Majhor Murray (classic experts) but no joy yet. Seems like even the experts are stumped. More to come. 

Cletus


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Cletus said:


> Just a quick update on the nagging "steering wheel won't return to center" issue, I haven't had a chance to get it on the lift but I intend to check that spring positioning issue next and get it realigned. When I replaced the idler arm with the correct part and swapped the steering box back out for the new one, it all feels funky again.
> 
> Cletus


I just went through this on my `65. I had to replace the gear box several times before getting a good one that would return when turning. Also when attaching the steering coupler to the input of the box, be sure that it doesn't bottom out as it will cause sticking issues.


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## Cletus (Dec 8, 2012)

update 6-8

So the alignment shop ran the caster back to the factory (negative specs from the positive setting we had experimented with) and identified a tight ball joint and a suspect steering box (seemed to want to turn right when revving engine at stop). I was putting back in my original box and just for good measure I tore the front and apart and discovered that the outer tire rod ends were really tight. I will install the new ones today and report back. One thing is for sure, the offset to the surface that the wheel sits against is different from the stock drum based spindles (I have 4W disk brakes on this). Not by much, perhaps 1/2". All these parts came from Ames and it's a bit frustrating...kind of a cluster foxtrot on these aftermarket parts. I will report back with the final solution, but I guess the lesson learned here is that you should carefully examine every part you get (exhaustively) for fit and function. Just because it comes from an assumed quality vendor, doesn't mean the parts aren't crap.


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## silversport (Mar 23, 2007)

keep the Faith...you're getting close...I feel your frustration...

Bill


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## old-goat (Jul 10, 2011)

I'm assuming you have checked the gear mesh adjustment on the steering box?


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## Cletus (Dec 8, 2012)

Hi Folks,

Now this is really getting frustrating. So the alignment shop (Line Up Shop in Portland) who certainly know their stuff returned the specs to negative camber, and proposed that the upper ball joint was tight and that the column might be binding. I disassembled the front links and observed that the tie rod ends were really tight and lumpy (they bound up in certain spots) so I replaced those today, checked that everything felt free and reassembled the whole thing. Put the original box back in, and still no joy. It doesn't even attempt to return. So, I guess I will try getting a set of more narrow tires. They loosened the new box up, but it was one of those situations when you rev'ed up the engine at a stop, the wheel would leak right. So the thought that this was probably combining with the tight parts to keep it from returning. So, I put the original box in (for the 3rd time now) and no change. This is bizarre because I see lot's of folks who have this set up. The front end feels fine to me when I man handle the the suspension on the lift. I am old, and I have done a lot of cars over the years and I have never encountered anything like this. I will find a narrower set of tires and rims and test that and report back. Thanks for all the tips.


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## Cletus (Dec 8, 2012)

After seeing Rukee's comments I might swap out the box from my other 66 GTO (currently in restoration) to see if it's a crappy box. The old front end with drum brakes drove fine. The crap didn't hit the fan until I replaced all the parts on the front and and did the 4 wheel brakes. Don't ask why I wound up with 2 GTO's...my eyes are bigger than my shop....


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## jmt455 (Mar 26, 2012)

geeteeohguy said:


> The thing that returns the steering wheel to center is the alignment angles and geometry of the suspension parts related to the front wheels....pretty much not the steering box. It would have to be binding so hard that it could overcome the weight and inertia of your moving car....not likely. Too little caster? Likely. Wrong SAI angles? Likely. Coil springs not seated will also cause other geometry to be off. Everything has to work together: ride height, spindle height, steering axis inclination, camber, caster, toe. Google SAI, Bump Steer, and Ackerman principle and start reading. You'll learn a lot about how all this stuff comes into play.


Good advice here.
Make sure all the alignment dimensions are within spec.
With that tire/wheel combo, i'd probably ask them to give me as much caster as possible.


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## Cletus (Dec 8, 2012)

Hi Folks,

Thanks to all for the advice. I have checked all of the clues, but the mystery continues. Ordering a Delphi 600 box and tubular control arms to get to 4 degrees positive caster. If that doesn't work, I am going to back down the tire size/width. As they say, if money solves the problem, it's not a problem.


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## gjones (Oct 8, 2012)

*problem#: 82,361,749*

It's only when you have no money that the problems start to become problems...


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## Cletus (Dec 8, 2012)

Hi Folks,

I finally got around to installing the tube control arms that allow for 4 degrees positive caster and the expensive Delphi steering box from Ames. Very happy with the results. Also went back to slightly smaller front tires (did this in advance of the box/arm upgrade with no improvement). Problem solved. Don't assume that putting the tube arms and modern Delphi box will make it handle like a new car, it won't. But is definitely makes it more stable on the highway and on roads with lumps and valleys. 

Now, time to do something with that 3:23 rear end...

Cletus


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

AAAACK!! 3.23 is about the perfect rear end ratio for an A body, automatic or stickshift. Say it ain't so!!!


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

ship it to me!!!...:thumbsup:


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## Indecision (Oct 24, 2010)

geeteeohguy said:


> AAAACK!! 3.23 is about the perfect rear end ratio for an A body, automatic or stickshift. Say it ain't so!!!


I'd kill for a 3.23 compared to the 4.10 (I think) that I have. ~60mph and 3000rpm with the muncie in 4th is killing me. The one benefit is that the skinny pedal is a ton of fun right now.


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