# Oil change/reccomendations?



## GoatBoy4056 (Nov 30, 2006)

Well its that time to change the oil and i wqas wondering what everyone uses and reccomends....i hear a lot about Mobil 1 but im curious if there's somethign better...Thanks in advance.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

There is better. The question is do you really need better? 

There is Amsoil, which is top rated. Contact Subdriver for that. Royal Purple and Redline are also rated better than Mobil 1 in most tests. 

If you have a modified engine, forced induction, nitrous, or that type of stuff look into better oil. Also if you race regularly, and I'm not talking street, but on a race track or somewhere that you get high oil temps, look to get better oil. Or if you drive the car hard always and have 15 tickets in the last 2 months get the better oil. For the majority though the extra money is just insurance. Insurance is always a win in the long run for the oil/insurance company.


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## LYNMUP (Nov 26, 2005)

I use Royal Purple in everything. I did notice a seat of the pants difference and the added peace-of-mind you are running full synthetic is awsome. Only have to change every 5000 miles as opposed to 3000.


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

LYNMUP said:


> Only have to change every 5000 miles as opposed to 3000.


Rember you need to change the oil filter or get AN extende life filter.


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

LYNMUP said:


> Only have to change every 5000 miles as opposed to 3000.


 
Rember to change the oil filters Or use longer life ones.


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## pickinfights (Oct 3, 2006)

I wonder if the search button would be any help to goatboy?


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## Route 66 (May 30, 2005)

What it boils down to is common sence. Are you like me and change the oil like clockwork....every 3k? If so, dont waste money on a lot of hype. If you change the oil/filter regularly, you could use K-Mart oil if you wanted. There is no "super oil" that will make your engine indestructable. Dont get me wrong...synthetics have their place....just not in my car. In the long haul...oil is oil....all mineral based. And, if you are one who doesnt follow some kind of maint. schedule.........well then, you prolly shouldnt own a car like this.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

LYNMUP said:


> I use Royal Purple in everything. I did notice a seat of the pants difference and the added peace-of-mind you are running full synthetic is awsome. Only have to change every 5000 miles as opposed to 3000.


*
What seat of the pants difference did you see when using Royal Purple? 

I haven't priced Royal Purple. I know Mobil 1 is going now for 24.99 for a 5 qt. container, (Walmart) to 27.99 @ K-Mart and single quarts are just under 6 $. *


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## bg2m8o (Jul 25, 2006)

pickinfights said:


> I wonder if the search button would be any help to goatboy?


Indeed - do a search - this topic is beaten to hell and back. Use GM 4718M oil, good filter like M1 or AC. Go drive


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## Subdriver (Dec 28, 2004)

Somewhat applicable to the discussion at hand, I just had one of my customers who tracks his Vette give me his used oil analysis report after 5,000 miles and 5 months of use which included one full track day at Watkins Glen:
Corvette C5 Used Oil Analysis Report – AMSOIL SAE Synthetic 10w30



Route 66 said:


> In the long haul...oil is oil....all mineral based.


Not true.

The API has not come out and defined the term "synthetic" but rather classified oils into groups.

Group I base oils are the least refined of all of the groups. They are usually a mix of different hydrocarbon chains with little or no uniformity. While some automotive oils use these stocks, they are generally used in less demanding applications.

Group II base oils are common in mineral based motor oils. They have fair to good performance in the areas of volatility, oxidation stability, wear prevention and flash/fire points. They have only fair performance in areas such as pour point and cold crank viscosity. Group II base stocks are what the majority of engine oils are made from. 3000 mile oil changes are the norm.

Group III base oils are subjected to the highest level of refining of all the mineral oil stocks. Although not chemically engineered, they offer improved performance in a wide range of areas as well as good molecular uniformity and stability. By definition they are considered a synthesized material and can be used in the production of synthetic and semi-synthetic lubricants. Group III is used in the vast majority of full synthetics or synthetic blends. They are superior to group I and II oils but still have limitations. Some formulations are designed for extended oil changes. AMSOIL XL Motor Oils, Castrol Syntec and many others fall into this category. 

Group IV are polyalphaolefins (PAO) which are a chemically engineered synthesized basestocks. PAOs offer excellent stability, molecular uniformity and performance over a wide range of lubricating properties. AMSOIL SAE Synthetic Motor Oils and Mobil 1 primarily use group IV basestocks. PAO is a much more expensive basestock than the highly refined petroleum oil basestock of Group III.

Group V base oils are also chemically engineered stocks that do not full into any of the categories previously mentioned. Typical examples of group V stocks are Esters, polyglycols and silicone. Redline uses an ester basestock.

In the 90s, Mobil filed suit against Castrol for falsely advertising Syntec oil as synthetic, when in fact it contained a Group III, highly hydroprocessed mineral (Dino) oil, instead of a chemically synthesized (group IV or V) basestock. Due to the amount that the mineral oil had been chemically changed, the judge decided in Castrol's favor. As a result, any oil containing this highly hydroprocessed mineral (Dino) oil (currently called Group III basestock by the American Petroleum Institute) can be marketed as a synthetic oil. Since the original synthetic basestock (polyalphaolefin or PAO) is much more expensive than the Group III basestock, most of the oil blenders switched to the Group III basestock, which significantly increased their profit margins.

Here is a description of Group V and IV synthesized basestocks I found on another forum. Gives a good background into esters and PAOs.

"Esters: Diesters (dibasic acid esters) 

During World War II a range of synthetic oils was developed. Among these, esters of long-chain alcohols and acids proved to be excellent for low temperature lubricants. Following World War II, the further development of esters was closely linked to the aviation gas turbine. In the early 1960s, neopolyol esters were used in this application because of their low volatilities, high flash points and good thermal stabilities. 

Diesters are prepared by reacting a dibasic acid with an alcohol containing one reactive hydroxyl group. Note that the hydrolytic stability of diesters is not as good as mineral oils. Hydrolytic stability refers to how the lubricant reacts in the presence of water. Hydrolytic degradation can lead to acidic products, which, in turn, promote corrosion. Plus, hydrolysis can also materially change the chemical properties of the base fluid, making it unsuitable for the intended use. Systems that can contract high levels of moisture include systems that operate at low temperatures or that cycle between high and low temperatures and also certain fuels such as racing engines running alcohol, which has a cooling effect in the engine. Racing engines using ester based lubricants should have the lubricant changed regularly. 

Diesters have good lubricating properties, good thermal and shear stability, high viscosity indexes and have exceptional solvency and detergency. Diesters are superior fluids for aircraft engines and compressors, although mainly older jet aircraft. Diesters are also used as a base oil or part of a base oil for automotive engine oils and in some low temperature greases (note: modern military and commercial jet aircraft almost universally use lubricants formulated with polyol esters as the base fluid now). 

Diesters are incompatible with some sealing materials and can cause more seal swelling than mineral oils. The scientific reason for this is as follows: diesters have a low molecular weight that results in low viscosities. This combined with their high polarities makes them quite aggressive to elastomeric seals. This can be reduced by using better elastomers or by carefully blending with PAOs to nullify their swelling effects, since PAO base stocks are nonpolar. 

Esters: Polyolesters (Neopentyl Poly Esters) 

Polyol esters are formed by reacting an alcohol with two or more reactive hydroxyl groups. These fluids are used primarily for aircraft engines, high temperature gas turbines, hydraulic fluids and heat exchange fluids. Polyol esters are much more expensive than diesters. Lubricating greases with polyol esters as the base fluid are particularly suited to high temperature applications. Polyol esters have the same advantages/disadvantages as diesters. They are, however, much more stable and tend to be used instead of diesters where temperature stability is important. In general, a polyol ester is thought to be 40-50 deg. C. more thermally stable than a diester of the same viscosity. Esters give much lower coefficients of friction than those of PAO and mineral oil. By adding 5-10% of an ester to a PAO or mineral oil the oils coefficient of friction can be reduced markedly. 

Polymerized alpha olefin: Polyalphaolefin, Olefin Polymers, Olefin Oligomers- a synthetic hydrocarbon 

PAOs are commonly used to designate olefin oligomers and olefin polymers. The term PAO was first used by Gulf Oil Company (later acquired by Chevron), but it has now become an accepted generic term for hydrocarbons manufactured by the catalytic oligomerization of linear alpha olefins having six or more carbon atoms. PAOs are gaining rapid acceptance as high-performance lubricants and functional fluids because they exhibit certain inherent and highly desirable characteristics. These favorable properties include: 

A wide operational temperature range. 
Good viscometrics (high viscosity index). 
Thermal Stability. 
Oxidative Stability. 
Hydrolytic stability. * 
Shear stability. 
Low corrosivity. 
Compatibility with mineral oils. 
Compatibility with various materials of construction. 
Low toxicity. 
Manufacturing flexibility that allows tailoring products to specific end-use application requirements. 

* Of particular interest in relation to demonstrating superior hydrolytic stability of PAO fluids is a test that was conducted to find a replacement for a silicate ester based aircraft coolant/dielectric fluid used by the U.S. military in aircraft radar systems. The test method required treating the fluids with 0.1% water and maintaining the fluid at 170 or 250 deg. F. for up to 250 hours. Samples were withdrawn at 20- hour intervals, and the flash points were measured by the closed cup method. A decrease in flash point was interpreted as being indicative of hydrolytic breakdown to form lower-molecular-weight products. The PAO showed no decrease in flash point in any of the test conditions, while the silicate ester based fluid showed marked decreases. The PAO fluid maintained started out with a flash point of 300 deg. F. and only dropped to 295 deg. F. at 80 hours into the test, while the silicate ester fluid, which started out with a flash point of 270 deg. F., ended up with a flash point of 220 deg. F. at only 55 hours into the test. 

PAOs are used extensively as automotive lubricants (engine, gear, transmission, grease, hydraulic). PAOs are also super premium oils for automotive applications operating in temperature extremes. PAOs are a synthetic hydrocarbon that is compatible with mineral oils. In industrial applications, they may be combined with organic esters to be used in high temperature gear and bearing oils, as well as gas turbines. They are also used as a base fluid in some wide temperature range greases. 

The general manufacturing process used to form PAOs is performed by combining a low molecular weight material, usually ethylene gas, into a specific olefin which is oligomerized into a lubricating oil material and then hydrogen stabilized. There are a variety of basic building block molecules used to form the finished lubricant, which are dependent on the range of requirements of the specific lubricant. 

Seal compatibility is an important factor for any lubricant. Unlike mineral oils, PAO does not have a tendency to swell elastomeric materials. Early commercial PAO products were not formulated properly to allow for this difference in behavior. Consequently, early PAOs gained an undeserved reputation for leakage. Extensive tests have since shown that the addition of small quantities of an ester to the formulation easily alleviates this problem. 

Recent work has indicated that the proper choice of other performance additives may eliminate the need to employ esters, but this approach is not yet in practice for crankcase applications. In a test of a PAO vs. a mineral oil for seal compatibility, four seal materials were studied: acrylate, silicone, nitrile and fluoroelastomer. The seals were evaluated at the end of the test for changes in tensile strength, elongation, volume (seal swell), and hardness. The PAO performance fell within the specification limits for all four elastomers. The mineral oil failed with silicone. Similar tests have been carried out with fully formulated part- and full-synthetic PAO oils. In all cases the fluids met the specifications. 

Recent data shows that PAO-based fluids provide superior performance for the high-tech cars and trucks being built today. Todays engines are smaller and more demanding and operate at higher RPMs and under hood spaces is limited which causes increased operating temperatures. Both the thermal conductivity and heat capacity of PAO fluids are about 10% higher than values for comparable mineral oils. The net result is that PAO-lubricated equipment tends to run cooler. 


Summary 
There is clearly no doubt that synthetic lubricants are superior to petroleum based oils. An excellent summary of in-depth studies that were conducted on the benefits of synthetic lubricants is presented in Appendix B of the Society for Automotive Engineers, Progress in Technology ****** 22 and was conducted during the 1970s and 1980s. The nine superior performance features of synthetic engine oils that were documented by extensive laboratory and field testing are listed below: 

Nine Superior Performance Features of Synthetic Engine Oils 
Engine Cleanliness. 
Improved Fuel Economy (4.2% average increase) 
Oil Economy (lower consumption) 
Excellent Cold Starting and Low Temperature Fluidity 
Outstanding Performance in Extended Oil Drain Field Service 
High Temperature Oxidation Resistance 
Outstanding Single and Double Length SAE-ASTM API SE and SF Performance Tests (note SE and SF specs were the latest at the time of the testing) 
Excellent Wear Protection 
Extended drain capability for heavy-duty diesel trucks and gasoline powered trucks. Note: this particular test was based on truck fleet testing, however extended drain capability holds true for passenger cars as well. 
These same superior performance features of synthetic engine oils hold true today just as they did when this extensive testing was conducted and has since been verified by many more studies and testing as well as countless millions of miles of field service in every possible type of vehicle and equipment application."

:cheers


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## LYNMUP (Nov 26, 2005)

GTO judge said:


> *
> What seat of the pants difference did you see when using Royal Purple?
> 
> I haven't priced Royal Purple. I know Mobil 1 is going now for 24.99 for a 5 qt. container, (Walmart) to 27.99 @ K-Mart and single quarts are just under 6 $. *


I noticed better acceleration. Keep in mind I changed everything at the same time, oil tranny, rear diff. HorsepowerTV did a DYNO test on a 2000ish Camaro (same fluids) and got 8 rwhp just by changing to Royal Purple. It used to be $6.50 a quart but just went up to $7.50. Just for the oil and tranny fluid + oil filter, (Yes I change it), it was $100. If I ever find a place that sells it in bulk, I'll go that route since my Car and truck have the same oil. 

A rep from Royal Purple actually told me you could just change the filter every 5000 miles and top it of and that would be fine. I actually change the oil and and and the next 5000 miles, change the filter and top it off, then I repeat with oil and filter and so on. The oil still looks good when I drain it at the end of 10,000 miles. It doesn't matter what filter you use because any paper filter will start to break down after 5000 miles per RP rep. There are other ones that have better filtration and longer life. I usually use Fram Tri guard.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

A speed shop that I deal with did the same test with Royal Purple. They did it for GMHTP magazine. They took a car and Dyno'd it with 5000 mile dirty oil and about 20,000 miles on the rest of the lubricants. They then changed the fluids to Royal Purple and got a 10whp difference. Sounds like the closest thing to free hp right.

They then changed all the fluids to Mobil 1 and re-ran the car on the dyno. They lost 2 hp, but when you consider the margin of error was about 3hp, it could have been the same hp. 

They then changed to regular dino oil and got a 1hp boost over the Royal Purple. ????????? Dino oil beat Royal Purple. The key is fresh fluids in that case, not synthetic versus dino oil. That's what got them the free hp. Royal Purple versus any other oil is not going to give you more hp when all are new. Royal Purple, Amsoil and Redline will hold up better under extreme conditions than a Mobil 1. The mobil 1 will hold up way better than dino oil. 

The thing to remember here is how oil breaks down with use and atmospheric conditions. When new and just put into the crankcase there is virtually no difference between any oil of the same viscosity at 70-120 degrees. Run your engine temps into the 260-270 degree oil temp range and you'll be sweating with dino oil. The synthetic will be less likely to coke up or lose shear. 

Drag racing isn't abusive enough on the oil to require the synthetics. Most of us aren't going to see extreme's that we need an Amsoil, a Redline or a Royal Purple. Mobil 1 is more than good enough. But if you decide to go road racing, or run the Silver State Classic and you've sold yourself short on the oil, you'll be sorry.


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## bg2m8o (Jul 25, 2006)

LYNMUP said:


> I noticed better acceleration. Keep in mind I changed everything at the same time, oil tranny, rear diff. HorsepowerTV did a DYNO test on a 2000ish Camaro (same fluids) and got 8 rwhp just by changing to Royal Purple. It used to be $6.50 a quart but just went up to $7.50. Just for the oil and tranny fluid + oil filter, (Yes I change it), it was $100. If I ever find a place that sells it in bulk, I'll go that route since my Car and truck have the same oil.
> 
> A rep from Royal Purple actually told me you could just change the filter every 5000 miles and top it of and that would be fine. I actually change the oil and and and the next 5000 miles, change the filter and top it off, then I repeat with oil and filter and so on. The oil still looks good when I drain it at the end of 10,000 miles. It doesn't matter what filter you use because any paper filter will start to break down after 5000 miles per RP rep. There are other ones that have better filtration and longer life. I usually use Fram Tri guard.


Its just my opinion - but filters matter a bunch. Fram filters are garbage. Use a quality premium filter. There is a huge difference, not just paper, but valving, matrix, filter medium and so on. If you are only changing the filter every 10K, buy the best you can find. My favorite is the M1 filter.


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## LYNMUP (Nov 26, 2005)

bg2m8o said:


> Its just my opinion - but filters matter a bunch. Fram filters are garbage. Use a quality premium filter. There is a huge difference, not just paper, but valving, matrix, filter medium and so on. If you are only changing the filter every 10K, buy the best you can find. My favorite is the M1 filter.



I actually change the filter every 5000 miles. Is the M1 you are refering to the Mobile 1? If it is better than I'll look into it.


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2006)

*oil*

I switched to Royal Purple 5W 30 at 5000 miles.. I have an oil temp gauge that I installed in my 05 Goat and the temp dropped by over 20 degrees compaired to Mobile 1...it also seem to run smother and rev slightly quicker.. ALWAYS get a good oil filter designed for synthetic oil...


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## ACR (Nov 28, 2006)

bg2m8o said:


> Its just my opinion - but filters matter a bunch. Fram filters are garbage. Use a quality premium filter. There is a huge difference, not just paper, but valving, matrix, filter medium and so on. If you are only changing the filter every 10K, buy the best you can find. My favorite is the M1 filter.


 :agree , I'll try to find the link to an extensive oil filter analysis. Fram internals were plastic and showed signs of warpage. The best filter is the factory UPF 44 filter. Special synthetic media designed for extended synthetic use. M1 is a good alternative but check out the differences yourself. Mobil 1 also makes an extended life oil as well the regular Mobil 1. Most dealers have no idea what the UPF 44 is, and have been told by many that it was replaced by another number, don't believe them.


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## bg2m8o (Jul 25, 2006)

Indeed, but beware, the M1 EP oils don't conform to the GM 4718M spec for the LS2! No clue as to why, but they are not labeled 4718M compliant.


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## ACR (Nov 28, 2006)

bg2m8o said:


> Indeed, but beware, the M1 EP oils don't conform to the GM 4718M spec for the LS2! No clue as to why, but they are not labeled 4718M compliant.


Very interesting point about the EP mobil 1. I have used regular Mobil 1 with a UPF 44 at 3k intervals in all my LS based vehicles.


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## BigNick (Jan 7, 2005)

bg2m8o said:


> Indeed, but beware, the M1 EP oils don't conform to the GM 4718M spec for the LS2! No clue as to why, but they are not labeled 4718M compliant.


Maybe because they're a new product and haven't been tested yet?


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## bg2m8o (Jul 25, 2006)

BigNick said:


> Maybe because they're a new product and haven't been tested yet?


Maybe, but I doubt it. The EP conforms to the 6049M spec, but not the newer (and presumably more rigorous 4718M). 

There are not many oils that meet this spec. I have not been able to find the specification anywhere on the web, nor do I know how or why the specs differ. I would love to know! 

Anyone? -No guessing! If you have a link to the actual specifications, that would be sweet.


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## ACR (Nov 28, 2006)

bg2m8o said:


> Maybe, but I doubt it. The EP conforms to the 6049M spec, but not the newer (and presumably more rigorous 4718M).
> 
> There are not many oils that meet this spec. I have not been able to find the specification anywhere on the web, nor do I know how or why the specs differ. I would love to know!
> 
> Anyone? -No guessing! If you have a link to the actual specifications, that would be sweet.


I was curious after reading your info about the EP, and as you stated it does not conform, checked the Mobil One website. What's interesting though, is that the website states that it meets or exceeds all OEM's requirements? To throw another wrench into this, I checked my own containers of Mobil One, Non EP. The 10/30w also does not conform to the standard 4718M. If you do a search on GF-4 which all the Mobil One oils conform too, you realize that the ratings have as much to do with the oils abillity to conform with lower emissions as well as mileage constraints. So my quick assumption is that the OEM's are giving you a specific spec., in order for your car to perform to the exact emission/mileage constraints they were designed for. Do a search on the web regarding GM 4718M and GF-4 and the up and coming GF-5, great reading.


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## ACR (Nov 28, 2006)

Ok, so here's the skinny, according to the rep at Mobil 1. I decided to call the number on the back of the Mobil 1 bottle. "Joe", the guy I spoke with stated, the reason they don't put the GM 4718M spec., is that the manufacturers don't want you changing your oil at 15,000 miles. that is to say that GM has oil changing guidelines that were established for a specific oil at given changing intervals. As we know, that oil is Mobil 1 or an oil meeting that given spec. So under warranty GM doesn't want you changing your oil at 15K, they want you to follow their guidlines, makes sense to me, standardization for the sake of warranty claims. To put an additional wrinkle into the picture, his claim is that GL-4 suppercedes 4718M, therefore making the EP products well within your warranty requirements if changed according to OEM guidelines. This all came about when I questioned him if the EP product provided better protection, and his answer was yes. I change my oil at 3K regardless of less stringent requirements, so according to this guy, I would have the best product for cleanliness and protection with the EP.

You can make your own decision, but this does make logical sense to me.


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## bg2m8o (Jul 25, 2006)

LYNMUP said:


> I actually change the filter every 5000 miles. Is the M1 you are refering to the Mobile 1? If it is better than I'll look into it.


Yes, they are much better. Once upon a day I had a link to a great site on oil filters. Will try to find it and provide a link. Delcos are decent too. Frams were scary.


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## bg2m8o (Jul 25, 2006)

Found the website:
http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilters.html


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## SnKGoat (Nov 21, 2006)

*2004 6Spd. GTO and Mobil 1 5w30 & Mobil 1 Filter*

2004 6spd GTO and Mobil 1 5w30 and Mobil 1 Filter (changed every 5k)would be more then adequate and work just fine? Coming up close to my first oil change after buying the car with 10.9k miles on it. Advice?:confused


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## bg2m8o (Jul 25, 2006)

SnKGoat said:


> 2004 6spd GTO and Mobil 1 5w30 and Mobil 1 Filter (changed every 5k)would be more then adequate and work just fine? Coming up close to my first oil change after buying the car with 10.9k miles on it. Advice?:confused


Perfect indeed


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## LYNMUP (Nov 26, 2005)

bg2m8o said:


> Found the website:
> http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilters.html


Thanks for the link. Luckily for me I have been using the FRAM tough guard which they show to be O.K. WHEEW! Since I've been using RP, I haven't seen the factory oil change indication come on once. Not sure how accurate it is but haven't seen it yet. I'm just over 25K.


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## Subdriver (Dec 28, 2004)

bg2m8o said:


> Found the website:
> http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilters.html



Here's the actual source website for that filter study: http://www.oilfilterstudy.com/

But that site itself is pretty dated and includes no info on newer filter such as the AMSOIL Ea Oil Filter.

I too have searched extensively for the differences between the 6094M and 4718M specs, but haven't found the actual specs. One of the key differences from what I have found is in volatility with the 4718M haven't a much more restrictive limit due to the higher temps in the Vette experienced when they removed the oil cooler. My opinion based on what I've read is that GM developed the new more restrictive spec for the Vette (4718M) specifically so they could run the oil at higher temps and save the money and weight of the oil cooler. 

I'm a little skeptical of Mobil's claims with regard to the 4718M. I've watched that oil pretty carefully since it came out and it has never been labeled to meet 4718M. When it first came out it surprised GM and I read articles discussing GM's position on using it for extended oil changes (not surprisingly they weren't for it). Maybe Mobil did not label the oil to meet the Vette (and GTO) spec in aniticipation of GM's position. Who really knows. My opinion is that the newer Mobil 1 EP is better than the base Mobil 1. I think that is supported by the relative performance of the oils in these two AMSOIL commissioned tests:
Comparative Motor Oil Test Nov 05
Comparative Motor Oil Test Dec 03

The new EP appears to do better relative to the other oils in the new test as compared to the base Mobil 1 in the older test.

If I were a Mobil 1 user, and I didn't care about the 4718M label, which I'm not sure I could get past for a car under warranty, I'd use the EP version. :cheers


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

As always Subdriver, thanks for the info.


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