# Need help finding value of my 69 Judge



## Love_my_Judge (May 12, 2017)

I've come to the conclusion I have to sell my 69 GTO Judge. Three people are interested in it but I need to find a fair value for it. I purchased this car in 1979 drove it off and on for several years and then parked it in 1990. It has some age and storage blemishes. The body has some minor rust, floor boards and trunk are all there. Driver side wheel well has some issues, trunk deck is showing the typical signs and a few bubbles are starting under the paint on the hood. Passenger fender has a dent and I would replace it. The doors are clunky and need adjustment. The window chrome is starting to lift and paint peeling but don't believe it's cancered up. The interior is dried out and should have new carpet, headliner and seat foam and covers. The door panels are pretty good but driver arm rest and consul lid need recovering. Drive train is not original. Heads are #48 but have a November date for a 01D car which doesn't seem correct. The manifolds are correct but carb is off a 69 442 4 speed. Transmission and rear differential broke at the same time with a wheel hop, so they aren't original. Have several pictures on photo bucket, unfortunately every picture I have is too large a file to upload on this site.

http://s345.photobucket.com/user/DaveBudau/library/1969 GTO Judge

Any thoughts on what I should ask for this car.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Sounds rough without seeing any pics. Your link requires a "sign-in" to view, so not much help. 

I suggest you first order the PHS documents to go with your car before you sell it. This will document your car as a Judge and provide you with the factory build info on your car - as well as any potential buyer.

Missing the original drivetrain hurts and if someone were to restore the car trying to locate original dated parts - very expensive. The car has much potential, but will need a complete rebuild/restoration which again is not inexpensive. But, someone else might just do a cosmetic fix/resto-mod and run it as is doing as little or as much to get the car rolling or flip it.

So the price really depends on whomever buys it and their intentions. A restoration could easily hit 56-60K (or more) which probably puts the car in the price range they sell for, so no big profit for anyone and no profit may not attract those who restore cars UNLESS the car has a few unique/rare features, one being a Ram Air IV engine. 4-speed cars are more desirable.

So my guess on price range would be $7,500 - $9,500.


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## Love_my_Judge (May 12, 2017)

Thank you for the quick reply. I forgot to mention I do have the PHS documentation in hand, it's a 400 ram air iii judge, 4 speed, 355 posi judge. Not much for options PS, PB etc. Based on the id people suggest it's a pattern Judge, never really heard of that until a few weeks ago. I'll try this photo bucket link again.

1969 GTO Judge by DaveBudau | Photobucket


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Love_my_Judge said:


> Thank you for the quick reply. I forgot to mention I do have the PHS documentation in hand, it's a 400 ram air iii judge, 4 speed, 355 posi judge. Not much for options PS, PB etc. Based on the id people suggest it's a pattern Judge, never really heard of that until a few weeks ago. I'll try this photo bucket link again.
> 
> 1969 GTO Judge by DaveBudau | Photobucket




OK, much better. The photos make a big difference and the car is much better than I pictured it to be.

PHS documents will be a plus in the sale.

Body lines look straight, so it doesn't look like any hits or major damage. Typical areas where the body has issues, but nothing all that bad. 

The original missing driveline would be an issue for the purist or restorer. For many it wouldn't be, simply because it is an original Judge and not a clone. 4-speed makes it highly desirable over an automatic. 

So, if I had to put a price on the car as it sits, I would be comfortable at 18K because it looks like I could hop in and drive it as is- but that's me and my opinion. I could see a range that falls between 18K-22K. I think I would also sell the centerlines and find a set of Rally wheels to go on there, and remove the column tachometer as this may be a plus in the selling/visual department if you were to put it on the open market versus one of your buddies purchasing the car.


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## Love_my_Judge (May 12, 2017)

That's great news, I was hoping in the 17,500 range. What are your thoughts on the date code on the heads (K308). I spoke to a fellow that has a WS K dated block which matches the date code on my heads. He mentioned that most ram air engines were manufactured in the fall then inventoried for installation later. I always thought the engine date code was supposed to be about three weeks before assembly date. I have a choice of 2 WS blocks one is a K and one is an A which matches the month of assembly for my car. Great advice on the wheels, I took the ralley's in to be restored, I'm not a fan of the centerlines either.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Love_my_Judge said:


> That's great news, I was hoping in the 17,500 range. What are your thoughts on the date code on the heads (K308). I spoke to a fellow that has a WS K dated block which matches the date code on my heads. He mentioned that most ram air engines were manufactured in the fall then inventoried for installation later. I always thought the engine date code was supposed to be about three weeks before assembly date. I have a choice of 2 WS blocks one is a K and one is an A which matches the month of assembly for my car. Great advice on the wheels, I took the ralley's in to be restored, I'm not a fan of the centerlines either.



I am not an expert on the date codes, however, forum member *Pinion head* is the guy who will know this answer. He studies car production dates and correct matching casting code dates that should fall within your cars build - to include trans/rear date codes if that will help. I would contact him with a personal message (PM) and get his opinion. He will pop in, but is busy setting up a building to house his collection of Pontiac parts & cars.


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## Love_my_Judge (May 12, 2017)

Thank you, I've been going through different articles on the forum and saw some of his replies. He is a very knowledgeable fellow.


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Over last 25 years, have owned seven real Judge project cars, three being 72-72 '69's (the first being a late program '69 auto car). For reference, I currently know what one friend has been selling fairlyrough roller project '69 & '70 Judge projects w/o engines & nodular 8.2 10 bolt posi rears & very incomplete, needing a lot of quality parts, thes rollers having been bringing 8K & up. The more complete with quality original parts, the better. Nice original uncracked dash, add. Complete original born with Muncie 4 spd & shifter, add several thousand. Decent condition restorable condition original production run "273" RA Q-jet, add at least 2k. Add for no rust original RA hood, add for nice solid original trunk lid & spoiler, same for clean proper dated matching set of JA wheels for '69's. Typically, factory 4 spd cars bring more than original auto's. Many prefer black over parchment '69 interiors. Certain exterior colors like Black or Warwick blue also bring up the price on a '69 project.


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

The K dated 48 casting heads are original, the late program build Lakewood build '69 Auto Judge that I owned had it's original YZ block dated very late Oct '68 & original heads were early Nov, K088's, thought that odd at the time til examined many original program build '69 Judges. Know many of us have shared on PY Judge Forum, & Pontiac DEFINITELY stockpiled a bunch of assembled WS & YZ engines for the intro of the Judge. While this was going on, the RamAir III engine was delayed for introduction as an optional engine in non Judge GTO's. The first non Judge factory RAIII GTO's were built, i believe, very end, late Dec '69.


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## Love_my_Judge (May 12, 2017)

Wow, thank you for the great info.


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