# How to - burnouts?



## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

I had a conversation with a classic GTO owner that is pretty into doing recreational burnouts. He says what he does is back the rear brakes off a couple notches. This way he can lock up the front, get the burn started and then _slightly_ let off the brakes to allow the car to crawl forward a bit (he says the new pavment produces better smoke)

Now I know what terrible things burn outs do to regular street tires - the heat from the friction that is melting the surface rubber is also causing a chemical reaction in the remaining tread - forever making it harder and less traction... but I have seen a video of a new GTO doing a pretty good burnout... it has the nice slow "crawl", then suddenly lurches forward.

The guy must have done something to the rear brakes to get this effect, what?

---Larry


----------



## BLUSHIRT35 (Sep 13, 2004)

if you cant do a burn out or hole shot or whatever we call it then you dont deserve the car or a license lol .. one way is to just rev it up to 6 grand and drop the clutch and just pin it till 2nd gear . then you have the automatic guys like me that just power brake 30 foot long rubber marks like i did in my 87 t-type which by the way ran 13.30 on street tires and passed emmissions here in ny


----------



## rock421 (Aug 7, 2004)

Larry, you could put a line lock on the car, but I would hate to see you tamper with factory brake lines. More practice I say!....more practice!
Larry.............................did you turn off the traction control??????


----------



## Redline (Aug 10, 2004)

manual or auto?


----------



## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

Let me see if I can remember all the questions..

Easy one first: I have an auto, I believe the classic was also an auto, no idea what the car in the video was.

Linelock - that was my first question to him - but he says that linelocks are all or nothing - and you want to be able to let the car move slightly forward to keep getting a little fresh asphalt under the tires. That's why he backs the rear brakes off before he goes. This lets him easy up on the brake -just a bit- and let the car inch forward.

Blueshirt - are you saying that if the brakes are locked up enough to keep the car from moving that the rear will still over come the brakes and spin? (ya-ya rock, assuming one is *intelligent *enough to take the TCS off! Duuuhhhh)

It was my assumption that with rear disks - especially since you can't back the adjustment off, that they'd have too much grab.


Again, I'm not certain I would actually like to do this with MY car, but I would like to know how.

---Larry


Blueshirt - just noticed that you had a 87 T-Type - I had an 87 Grand National! Its funny, I think the GN/T-type should be just a bit slower in the quarter mile than the GTO - but the GTO sure FEELS a LOT faster, doesn't it? I mean a LOT. Maybe its the way the GTO has "instant" power vs the smooth spool up of the Buick. Getting back to this subject - the Buick had rear drums, so even if you don't back the adjusters off, they won't have the as much grab as the GTOs disks. Yes?


----------



## Redline (Aug 10, 2004)

get advice from a pro on auto burnouts


----------



## rock421 (Aug 7, 2004)

Sorry Larry, I couldn't resist. The linelock will only hold whatever pressure is in the front lines at the time it is activated. I you don't have your foot on the pedal, there is no pressure to retain up front. The trick is to have light brake pedal pressure, hit the linelock, let off the brake pedal and whack the gas. You can experiment with different foot pressures to five you more or less drag on the rotors. You CAN push the pressure higher while the lock is activated. It's kind of like an electronically actuated one way valve.
I think it's really what you are looking for.
Whatever you do, DO NOT "neutral drop" the car. Never rev it up then let it slam into gear. Bad things happen Larry.........Bad things.

See ya, Brian


----------



## George8211 (Sep 21, 2004)

LarryM said:


> I had a conversation with a classic GTO owner that is pretty into doing recreational burnouts. He says what he does is back the rear brakes off a couple notches. This way he can lock up the front, get the burn started and then _slightly_ let off the brakes to allow the car to crawl forward a bit


I beleive the rear brakes that this guy has are self adjusting. If so, an evening of driving would reset them to the proper brake setting. He must do alot of 'turing the star wheel'. The easiest way is to have so much power that you really don't have to worry about brakes. Just like you saw in the movie.... That was not brakes... just Raw Torque.



> The guy must have done something to the rear brakes to get this effect, what?


Lots of horse power. & torque


----------



## George8211 (Sep 21, 2004)

rock421 said:


> Whatever you do, DO NOT "neutral drop" the car. Never rev it up then let it slam into gear. See ya, Brian


 :agree This can result in a very expensive and embarasing burn out... (automatics)


----------



## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

Redline said:


> get advice from a pro on auto burnouts


This guy is about as close to "pro" as I'll ever come to meeting.

Trouble is, altho both our cars say "GTO" on the outside, too much is different on the inside.

To counter his brake adjustments, I wondered if there could be some form of clip/pin. The pin would go between the calipers and keep them from closing, the clip would hold it in place. Not sure if that'd drive the anti-lock nutso tho.

---Larry


----------



## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

rock421 said:


> Sorry Larry, I couldn't resist. The linelock will only hold whatever pressure is in the front lines at the time it is activated. I you don't have your foot on the pedal, there is no pressure to retain up front. The trick is to have light brake pedal pressure, hit the linelock, let off the brake pedal and whack the gas. You can experiment with different foot pressures to five you more or less drag on the rotors. You CAN push the pressure higher while the lock is activated. It's kind of like an electronically actuated one way valve.
> I think it's really what you are looking for.
> Whatever you do, DO NOT "neutral drop" the car. Never rev it up then let it slam into gear. Bad things happen Larry.........Bad things.
> 
> See ya, Brian


Okay I''ll admit I deserved some razzing for such a dumb cluck move.

Instead of a linelock (or my clip/pin idea) are there devices that would change the proportioning to the front/rear? Not quite as handy as a linelock which is probably perfect for actual drag racing where you do want all brakes/no brakes in an instant.

And as far as the N->D drop - yes, even this geeky programmer knew that that was a bad move. I've read a couple places recently that putting your car in Neutral for a stop light is a good idea - and while it is nice to sit there without your foot on the brake, I get nervous about that N->D move even tho the engine is idling. The car doesn't seem to do that "launch mode" properly then. For those of you with manuals - the sales guy pointed this out to me, and it is in the pretty silver Pontiac GTO book - when you have your foot on the brake and shift the car from Park to Drive, the back end of the car "squats" down a rather noticable amount - "launch mode". I don't make this up, its what's in the book.

---Larry


----------



## Dukeboy57 (Sep 19, 2004)

The classic GTO had drums on the rear and backing off the adjustment would allow you to not have as much stopping power back there. There is no adjustment on rear disc brakes (or front, for that matter), and it's not necessary anyway. All you have to do is power-brake it. Hold the brake with left foot, hit the gas with right foot. The front brakes keep the car from moving forward. For the rears, the engine can generate more twisting power than the brakes can grab, so welcome to smoke-land . If you want to move a little, let off lightly on the pedal. You'll just have to experiment here as to how much. For the classic GTO, backing off the rear adjustment eliminates the experimentation stage. It's not really necessary to do a successful burn-out.


----------



## Dukeboy57 (Sep 19, 2004)

LarryM said:


> And as far as the N->D drop - yes, even this geeky programmer knew that that was a bad move. I've read a couple places recently that putting your car in Neutral for a stop light is a good idea - and while it is nice to sit there without your foot on the brake, I get nervous about that N->D move even tho the engine is idling. The car doesn't seem to do that "launch mode" properly then. For those of you with manuals - the sales guy pointed this out to me, and it is in the pretty silver Pontiac GTO book - when you have your foot on the brake and shift the car from Park to Drive, the back end of the car "squats" down a rather noticable amount - "launch mode". I don't make this up, its what's in the book.
> 
> ---Larry



It's also unsafe in case someone behind you reading the paper, drinking their coffee, talking on a cell-phone, and making a pot-roast suddenly realizes they're 30 feet from you when they're going 50MPH. If you have it in gear, and are paying attention to your rear-view (yes, even at stop-lights), you'll be able to get out of the way quicker. They teach this at Motorcycle Safety classes, also.


----------



## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

I'm afraid that in that situation all I'd be able to do is grit my teeth and watch it happen (as it did once in a previous car) - there's just no place TO go. But actually, taking my foot OFF the brake just before he hit me allow my car to xfer the energy into movement rather than having to absorb it. So despite that the guy REALLY WALLOPED me, the car had relatively little damage.

---Larry


----------



## AlaskaGTO (Aug 29, 2004)

What kind of sissy buys a muscle car with an automatic? OOPS, did I say that out loud?!? :cool Just teasing you Larry.


----------



## BLUSHIRT35 (Sep 13, 2004)

hey alaska i have an automatic and you would too if you had nothing but trafffic jams most of the day here in the ny area . a stick is just not practical here unfortunately and im sure in other high volume areas. anyone buying a stick in a highly populated area give them props but im not gonna go thru that crap again lol


----------



## BLUSHIRT35 (Sep 13, 2004)

hey larry thought you had a stick ? if its an automatic you have just burn the tires like you have the grand national again . mu ttype ran the 1330s with sliht modifications like new exhaust , gutted the cat , my own ram air design ,and 104 + in the tank with a quarter tank of gas . no down pie cheating crap never did that just ran it thru closed exhaust. but im leaving the goat stock and just driving it everyday and will be going to the track soon just out of curiosity.


----------



## lisatw151 (Sep 8, 2004)

Hey, I live in Charlotte...no...it's NOT the hick town everyone thinks it is. Not quite as big as Atlanta, but still with our share of traffic. But I just HAD to have the stick. I understand the issues all too well in dealing with traffic, but the stick is still just so much more fun. My other half thought I was crazy when I brought it home and had gotten the 6M. Oh well.


----------



## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

AlaskaGTO said:


> What kind of sissy buys a muscle car with an automatic? OOPS, did I say that out loud?!? :cool Just teasing you Larry.


In my youth, the first car I bought (a 1962 trubo charged Olds Jetfire) had auto, the next car stick, then auto, then stick... See the pattern here? I have the auto, then think: "Oh, if only I had a stick - the car would be so much more fun to drive!" Then I get the stick and UGH! The 99% of the time you dread sitting in traffic just doesn't make up for the 1% that you actually get to enjoy the stick.

Besides, look at the numbers - the auto is what, a tenth of a second off the 0-60 time? a couple tenths (I think) in the 1/4 mile - that just isn't enough margin for the little bit of street racing I get to do

Besides - I'm an old fart! Not some knuckle dragging, slopped forehead young kid that hasn't learned the advantage of letting technology do the shifting.  

But to each their own. Those of you with the 6-speeds, enjoy them. Those of us with autos will try to not spill our latte's as we actually get to enjoy the ride.  

---Larry


----------



## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

BLUSHIRT35 said:


> hey larry thought you had a stick ? if its an automatic you have just burn the tires like you have the grand national again ....


But the GN/TType had rear drums, which I _assumed_ just don't have the grab of the GTO's rear disks. My thought is that with the front's sufficiently engaged to hold the car in place, that the rears will have a lot of grab to over come... surely it would be better to do something to elimnate that, or at least lessen it. ???

You're right, in the GN, the "launch" consisted of jamming on the brakes with left foot, while knudging up the throttle to get the engine up to a 1 lb boost, release brake, floor accelerator. By the time you got to 1 lb boost, the tires were rotating. 1lb doesn't sound like a lot of boost for a car that'd go 20lbs (in first) but it let the turbo get all spooled up and the "lag" removed from the picture.

Rock did give me some ideas to get a better launch than just flooring it, other than my mis-adventure at the GTO club, I have not had an opportunity to do any real practices yet - but I am ordering one of those G-force meters which should help perfect a launch much better than just trying to time it with a stop watch - too many things to do all at once - I'm not that co-ordinated!

---Larry


----------



## BLUSHIRT35 (Sep 13, 2004)

*ok larry here goes*

i finally tried to power brake this monster and im gonna tell it like it is.

AUTOMATIC TRANS 
TRACTION OFF HOLD BRAKE WITH LEFT LEG AND APPLY GAS SLOWLY WHILE HOLDING THE CAR IN PLACE TIRES WILL START BREAKING LOOSE AND JUST KEEP BRAKE ON ONCE YOU GETTHEM SPINNING HOLD THE RPMS THERE DEPENDING ON HOW MUCH SMOKE YOU WANT TO CREATE YOU WILL REMOVE YOUR FOOT FROM BRAKE LIKE YOUR GN AND FLOOR IT TO LEAVE YOU MARKS IN CHICAGO LOL . OH THIS CAR LOVES TO SPIN SO EFFORTLESSLY . JUST PRETEND YOU IN THE GN AGAIN SAME TECHNIQUE FOR BAKING UP THE RUBBER 

DONT FORGET TO REMOVE THE RESIDUE FROM YOUR QUARTERS LOL


----------



## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

Did you do it in "D" or did you keep it in "1" to prevent the shift?

Do I want to prevent the shift?

---Larry


----------



## BLUSHIRT35 (Sep 13, 2004)

just leave it in 3 and go baby go


----------



## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

*3?* Why 3? Wuzat do different than D (for this) ? 

---Larry :confused


----------



## Tiger (Sep 26, 2004)

The salesman told me about the squatting as well, but after my test drive so I didn't notice it...but my friends Jeep Wrangler would squat what seemed like a foot when shifting into D, so I belived him.

You could choose any gear you want, the end result is basically the same. I woudln't choose 3, as that seems a bit high...would take forever to wind the engine up to the peak HP/TQ numbers. Leaving it in D will do just fine, the car shouldn't shift on you.

You could buy a proportioning valve to adjust front/rear brake bias, but it woudl play havoc on your ABS system. I think Jegs or Summit sells them, but most, if not all, the cars I've seen them on didn't have ABS (except open wheel cars, but that a whole different story).


----------



## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

A proportioning value - ya that would seem a good way... Ideally, it would be some thing temporary (don't want to forget its on) and something that would be settable from within the car.

I can imagine sitting at a light, something pulls up next to me, I get out of the car, pop the hood - "Wait a sec while I get this value set..." Um ya...

thanks,
---Larry


----------



## xp800 (Sep 16, 2004)

Came across this brake control package when looking to see if there was a short shifter for the manual.

http://www.lmperformance.com/4896/43.html

- Dieter


----------



## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

xp800 said:


> Came across this brake control package when looking to see if there was a short shifter for the manual.
> 
> http://www.lmperformance.com/4896/43.html
> 
> - Dieter


Dieter - thanks for the line lock link (say that fast)

If I understand these critters tho, they are an all-or-nothing front brake holder. I think what got this started, was a conversation with a classic GTO owner who backs off the adjustment of his rear brakes a couple notches before doing "recreational" burnouts. His tip was that once you get the rear wheels spinning, that you wanted to let the car inch forward so that the spinning tires kept getting fresh pavement under them. He said that was key to getting maximum smoke.

Something that would cut-off the rear brakes, but still let you modulate the front would be ideal.

---Larry


----------



## George8211 (Sep 21, 2004)

Tiger said:


> You could choose any gear you want, the end result is basically the same.


Don't choose 2nd. Second gear will always give you a second gear start. All other gears will give you a first gear start. Personally I also keep my trans in 3 unless I am on the highway, expressway. This keeps the engine a little higher in the RPM's ... resulting in a torque'er feel. This also keeps the transmission from seeking 4th or 3rd and shifting all the time at lower speeds.

Larry ... You need a Hight Stall Torque Convertor. You will spin the tire easily and it will remove about 22 pounds of unsprung weight.


----------



## George8211 (Sep 21, 2004)

LarryM said:


> A proportioning value - ya that would seem a good way...



Your car has most of the braking set up for the front brakes. I think it's 80% line pressure for the fronts and 20% for the rears (determinded by the spring for the porportioning valve in the brake master cylinder). While you brake the weight of your car transfers from neutral (balanced) to the front. This puts a great deal of pressure on the front tires, creating a great deal of traction. The oposite thing happens to the rear tires.

Ever see a semi stopping and his rear wheels are locking up and hopping while breaking? Thats because his truck is empty and he has little weight on his rear tires.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/master-brake.htm


----------



## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

As a teenie bopper (back in the covered wagon days), one of the things to be cool was to pull up on the parking brake - which if you're going more than about 10mph does practically nothing. As George notes, its the weight transfer thing (opposite of a good launch).

The back wheels have brakes pretty much just to keep them from getting in front of the front wheels in a hard brake situation. ...and yet, I was very surprised how much better a 4 wheel disk brake car stopped than a disk/drum.

---Larry


----------



## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

George8211 said:


> Don't choose 2nd. Second gear will always give you a second gear start. All other gears will give you a first gear start. Personally I also keep my trans in 3 unless I am on the highway, expressway. This keeps the engine a little higher in the RPM's ... resulting in a torque'er feel. This also keeps the transmission from seeking 4th or 3rd and shifting all the time at lower speeds.
> 
> Larry ... You need a Hight Stall Torque Convertor. You will spin the tire easily and it will remove about 22 pounds of unsprung weight.


George, - you're saying that putting it in "2" will start from 2nd gear? I'll have to try that out as I try to go slowly within my sub-division. That should get the nice rumble and keep the speed/rpm down.


----------



## BLUSHIRT35 (Sep 13, 2004)

you keep the car in 3 thats your drive gear without the overdrive , the d gear has your overdrive built in there fore on highways and stufff like that on the 1/4 mile track just keep it in 3 you wont go into overdrive and lose revs. when doing a burn out larry what do you plan on doing sitting on the tires burning them and going thru shifts? jusr power brake it in d or 3 get some smoke going not to much cause people say what a dick going thru his tires like that jsut get some smoke and and floor it when releasing the brake you will leave nice marks. dont mess with the car with line locks and brake crap just leave it alone , if you are having problems with an automatic well maybe you cant drive just joking , you had a GN its all the same


----------



## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

Okay, gotcha. I know just the spot to try it out... some motorcycle is putting single tire scrotch marks all over the place - loops, u's - he's getting artisitic even. Needs some wide-dual marks tho. 

Hey, Blushirt - I think you and I are the only two to admit that driving a stick would be hazardous to our health.

---Larry


----------



## LarryM (Aug 17, 2004)

Okay, mission acomplished! Just a little baby burnout, but hey it was pretty cool (for me at least). Now the motorcycle's skinny little strips has two big fat ones, so Nyah to him!

Interestingly, on my way home last night, the bottom of my shoe got slightly stuck on the bumps of the brake pedal, so when I went to switch from brake to gas my foot didn't take its normal smooth route, and instead ended up get a real decent squeel from the tires. Now I gotta figure out what my foot did different so I can repeat that at will!!

---Larry


----------

