# Advice: 68 or 70 GTO, which to buy??



## fredyG (Apr 18, 2012)

What I'm looking for is for some advice. I found two GTO's, a 68 and a 70. Both have to be full restore, both are one owner (I know the cars since new and the owners), both have manual shifting. The 70 have more options Ram Air/AC, electric windows, hood tach, etc. Which would be a better buy?? I have docens of photos of the 2 cars


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## FlambeauHO (Nov 24, 2011)

Sweet, how much is he asking?

I like 68 better but the ram air and options (if original) would be sweet. Get the vins and do some research. Also maybe some up close inspections of the sheet metal to see what kind of shape they are in...


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## jjenkins (Sep 11, 2011)

Why not both


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

jjenkins said:


> Why not both


:cheers EXACTLY I say BOTH!

And if not, I would love the other one, so call me and I will take the left overs. 

(Ram Air cars are VERY desirable) I am not sure you should pass that up. If it's factory Ram Air III it's got to be that one. But get the PHS docs on it first.


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## Tambo (Aug 15, 2011)

I'm not as knowledgeable as most on here, so correct me if I'm wrong.
What appears to me is the 68 has an ordinary air filter but a ram air exhaust manifold. And the 70 has a ram air filter base plate but no ram air manifold.


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## etewald (Dec 27, 2011)

It comes down to personal preference. I'd take the '68. If you like the '70 better, take it.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The '70 does indeed have the HO or Ram Air exhaust manifolds. The '68 looks to be an HO car...at least the battery cable location looks right for an HO. I like the '68 a bit better than the '70, but both are great years. That said, I'd get the '70, as it looks to be a factory ram air car, and that will make the car a much better investment at the end of the restoration. Agreed, you need to get PHS on both vehicles to make a sound decision. Great finds!!


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Tambo said:


> I'm not as knowledgeable as most on here, so correct me if I'm wrong.
> What appears to me is the 68 has an ordinary air filter but a ram air exhaust manifold. And the 70 has a ram air filter base plate but no ram air manifold.


Looking closely at the photos, I'm seeing just the opposite. The 68 has normal "log" style exhaust manifilds but the 70 has the correct Ram Air exhaust manifolds. I'd want to check all the numbers, but just from the photos there's a good chance that 70 is a complete Ram Air III car. If both are in "more or less" the same condition and need similar work, that would make the 70 the more valuable car as far as collectibility. If you don't care about that, then pick whichever one you like the most. (And tell the rest of us where the other one is!  )

Where are they, and how much do you think you can buy them for?

Bear


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## fredyG (Apr 18, 2012)

*advice; 68 or 70 GTO*

Thank you guys for your replys. I will tell you more. I know the owners since we were kids (18-20 years) and knew the cars since new. The 68 was bought when the actual and only owner bought it going to college at a dealer in Texas. it was ready at the parking lot and is a normal version, not a Ram Air. I thought that the 68 being a Car of the Year would be a more desairable car and has a more "sporty" look. The 70 model was ordered by my friend directly through GM, with Ram Air (III or IV? have to ask) with every thing except Power Steering in exchange of certain kind of progresive steering ???? but is one (actual) owner with 43k miles. Original blue with kind of white interior. Actually is abandoned exposed at sun and rain. I can buy both cars, but which ???? I'll include more photos of the two cars. Thank you


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## jmt455 (Mar 26, 2012)

I'd go for the 70.
Ram Air, A/C (I didn't think you could get A/C with Ram Air???), 4 speed, 8 track, power windows..WOW!
Looks like Palomino Copper with a white vinyl top and Sandalwood interior.
Killer combo!


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## fredyG (Apr 18, 2012)

How can I distinguish between a Ram Air III and a IV ? Differences??


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

i say the 70 RA, looks like its in better shape too....42,000 miles WOW, why did he put it out to pasture?


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

I like the 68 but man, that 70 GTO would be my choice (if it was mine to make and I *had* to choose) derelict cars are like lost puppy's to me, I just want to take em all home :lol:.

Incredible oportunity for you here and the 70 would be the winner to me with it looking to be in better shape and the *very* desirable option list.

As always, more pics and details! :cheers


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

fredyG said:


> How can I distinguish between a Ram Air III and a IV ? Differences??


Engine block, and numbers. Typically from originality, R/A III has one heat riser on the driver side. R/A IV had heat risers on both sides. This is a mute point from this car but from numbers matching stand point it isn't. Often times they are removed but to be precise that is one distinction on a properly done engine. To be absolutely sure, the VIN will tell all. PHS is your best friend.


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

fredyG said:


> How can I distinguish between a Ram Air III and a IV ? Differences??


For a quick check, look at the engine code, 2 letters, on the front of the engine below the passenger head. As Judge stated, PHS will tell the full story of all the options....


For '70 blocks('69 too)

Ram III
WS - manual
YZ - auto

Ram IV
WW - manual
XP - auto


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

It's going to be a RA III car - RA IV wasn't available with A/C, I'm pretty sure. 

Also, RA IV has an aluminum intake with a separate cast iron crossover under the carb, RA III intake is all cast iron and one piece (even though the "inner" bolt holes on the intake flange next to the carb are probably "split" - don't let that fool you.
Also, as others have said. RA IV is going to have those "heat stove" connections for the flexible tubing to the lower ram air pan from the center of the exhaust manifolds on both sides, RA III has it on the drivers side only. 

EDIT: I just looked at your engine photo again and I see that the heat stove shroud is missing from the drivers side. That's ok --- here's another way to tell. Look on the underside of the lower ram air pan, where the "ears" sort of stick out on both sides. A RA III pan is going to have a hole there (about 1.5"-2" in diameter) and a lip where that flex hose connects to, but it's only going to have hole that on the drivers side. The passenger side underneath the pan on that "ear" is going to be just flat, closed with no hole. If the passenger side has the same opening and provision for connecting a flex hose, then it's a RA IV pan.

Anyway - so you've got in all likelihood, an original numbers-matching "garden variety" "car of the year" 68 (with hideaway headlights no less), and an original numbers-matching RA-III 70 (complete with all the RA parts) - apprently a 4 speed. No contest. The 70 is -by far- the more valuable and desirable car. The only things that could make the 70 more valuable would be if it were a RA IV car, and a convertible ---- that would put its value restored well into 6 figures.

They're BOTH worthy of saving, but if you can truly only do one - I'd go with the 70.

Here's a photo of what a Ram Air III ram air system looks like. Notice there's a "heat stove" flex hose is only on the drivers side, there's a metal 'breather tube' from the passenger side valve cover to the back of the pan, and the intake manifold is all cast iron.









Here's another view of a RA III pan









...and a RA IV pan









See the difference?

Bear


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Mechanicals are easier than body work and floor pans. I'd buy both if reasonable and do the easier one first. If they are priced right, cheap, I'd get both.


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## fredyG (Apr 18, 2012)

*advice: 68 or 70...*



jmt455 said:


> I'd go for the 70.
> Ram Air, A/C (I didn't think you could get A/C with Ram Air???), 4 speed, 8 track, power windows..WOW!
> Looks like Palomino Copper with a white vinyl top and Sandalwood interior.
> Killer combo!


Hi, JMT455, It seems like that you like this finding of my "treasure hunting".. well I found out that this GTO came originally from factory with V.O.E (vacuum operated exhaust) !!! how about that ??? :lol:


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

fredyG, don't tell _Bear_ about your V.O.E option!!!! Seriously, you'd BETTER get that '70.....


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

fredyG said:


> Hi, JMT455, It seems like that you like this finding of my "treasure hunting".. well I found out that this GTO came originally from factory with V.O.E (vacuum operated exhaust) !!! how about that ??? :lol:


The only VOE factory I am aware of was the Humbler. Only 233 were produced before Pontiac pulled the plug. Does your PHS corroborate this?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

geeteeohguy said:


> fredyG, don't tell _Bear_ about your V.O.E option!!!! Seriously, you'd BETTER get that '70.....


Too late.... :lol:

voe... it's got a VOE???!!!!! You've found one VERY rare car there, sir... I've never heard of a car being found "in the wild" with both voe and Ram Air. The only one I've ever seen was the one used in the commercial. All the other ones I've ever seen had one or the other, but not both. Can you snap a photo of the controls????

Bear


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Sorry but I am not buying the factory VOE. Dash pic shows the R/A pull no VOE, Pull knob missing but the R/A isn't? . The tail pipes are a mickey mouse replacement. To find a Humbler rotting away with R/A? I am skeptical. This would be one of the biggest finds ever. To question whether to get it or not? 

A picture of the PHS with the VOE option along with the dash VIN would clear it up.


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## jmt455 (Mar 26, 2012)

VOE was the first thing I looked for in the pix. Doesn't look like a VOE car to me.
(I worked with Tom Hand to re-produce the VOE systems).
Need to see the PHS docs to be certain, but I don't think it's gonna be there...


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

I'm not buying any of this, I think it's a scam or just plain bs. He first claims the cars are in Texas and he has known the cars since new. Then he states they were found while treasure hunting. His IP addresses are from Caracas, Distrito Federal, Venezuela and the images he posted are from 2 different cameras. I was going to keep quiet and see where the thread goes, I would hate to see someone try to make a deal thru PM and get screwed. He first came across as a novice and then started feeding the frenzy with claims the car is a ram air and also has voe.

JMHO,


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

If something sounds too good to be true......


Bear


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

IMO: he's baiting people to froth over some information he just learned about. Come on now he gave himself away from the git go..... he's known the cars and owners since new and just now learned it has VOE? His buddy ordered the car this way then stripped the VOE from it installed straight pipe out the rear? Let it sit and rot especially after ordering it then GM pulling the plug on the Humbler just after he got it? 

This guy hung himself before the rope was even knotted.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

I guess we got a late April Fools :lol:.









Ahh.....the interwebs :shutme.


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

We'll see what he has to say. At 8:45 today he was replying to this thread. Since it's now 9:30, it must be a long reply......


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## fredyG (Apr 18, 2012)

*clarifiying ..advice 68...*

Guys, I'm really sorry that GTOJUdge, JMT455 and 05GTO have decided that it's not true what I have found, and that's why I'm goint to explain some things, because my integrity is on the board. It is TRUE that I know the cars since they arrive in Caracas, Venezuela, where I'm at. As you may know this is a Oil Country with lost of money. Back in the 50's/60's/70's you can see guzzling around the area where I live 300SL's, Ferraris California, Shelby's, GTO's, Porsches, etc (please inform yourselfe). My two friend who are married to 2 other girl friends, imported their cars. The 68 from Texas, the 70 was ordered through the representive (another friend) from GM in Venezuela, it exported to Europe and after a year it came to Venezuela. I'm NOT (at least now) a Pontiac guy, my family owned Ford dealer ships since late fifties, where I grew up, thats why I had TWO(2) Shelbys and three(3) Mustangs at the same time!. My especiality is restoring Porsches since 1973 which I had TEN (10 yes!!) and that was after I got tired of Ferrari. I retired (Im also/was a fix wing and rotary wing owner and pilot) in 1996 when I sold my hobbie (work shop) but, since It's gasoline whats running through my veins, I decided to come back with a "brand" that I havent had before. Actually my daily car Is a MB G500 Cabriolet. So one day I recall the 68 GTO, call my friend and we whent to see it, that's when I took the photos, talking he remained me about the 70 GTO (the 70 guy had a 67 before which I'm trying to track down) and since the owner is married to one of my best friend sister, I call the guy (who new me) and whent to see the GTO at his house, where he told me the car history and that it had a "funny thing", you pull a kind of wire and the exhaust open a "valve" or something (he is not a mechanic) and the car starts to make a lot of noise then, back "in" ? and it quiets. What is this??? any way I will ask him again. To finish, Ill be glad to post photos taken by me of the vehicles I mentioned. I could be mistaken, but I DON'T LIE. If I buy any of this cars, I will gladly post photos, VIN, paper work or what ever. One more thing, because of the goverment politics, nobody can export cars!! :shutme, we are trap!!. Thank you. PS: for you info, I know of a third (68) GTO. Remember, this is a small world. And by the way, is the same camera.  Bye


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Many a guy has come in here misrepresenting themselves and cars. We've heard many stories such as this. 

The PHS will not indicate VOE, it will be listed as a " Driver-controlled Tiger Button Exhaust" and will have a specific number code. The PHS to this car will indicate that code number. At 63.00 this was a fairly expensive option back then. 

If this indeed a rare Humbler and its all matching numbers you will have a find. An Atoll Blue one with non Ram Air was for sale a while back for just under 40K USD. You'd be foolish to pass on this.


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## fredyG (Apr 18, 2012)

GTO Judge. Firts I'm a restore guy, with 2 Master Degrees and second a sales man, this meaning that what I'm interested in, is in saving the car from being recycle as steel, mostly the 68. Last night I call my "70" friend and he is thinking in a price good for both. The car originally was blue, he axcepts that made a mistake painting it cooper (bacause of the terrible paint job). probably if I buy it i will take it to its original color (because of being a purist). As I say before, asap when I get in my hands any papers from the car I will post them. I have the VIN, but it doesn't says a thing. One question, in this case when a car is ordered from overseas thrugh a GM subsidiari, would PHS have documentation?? Is there a legal problem to post the VIN with out the car being mine?? If so, I have no problen is posting the vin and the placard in the engine bay, to find out what do we have. No problem. In accordance with my previus post about my trayectory and experience, besides of having being JUDGE in Mustang Concours, I'll atach two historics fotos. One autograph to me by Caroll Shelby and the other with Peter Gregg Porsche 59 (IMSA World Champion) in Jacksonville, with an autograph poster and a set of racing pistons, (who has a photo autograph by Lee Iacoca??)from there, we whent to the 12 hours of Sebring. 3.- me, copilot and crew in a SAR mission with a MD 620. 4-my rig. 5.- Having fun back in 1969, and have more proof of words. thank you :confused ??


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

I would not post the VIN period, if you want to then omit the last 4 characters blot them out. The VIN will not tell you this information. Pontiac Historical Services is a separate entity from GM. You can order the VIN direct from them: PHS Historic Services

You do not have to own the VIN to get the paper work. You will get a detailed order the car came with. It will have the VIN and all options the car was born with. It will spell out the Ram Air and " Driver-controlled Tiger Button Exhaust" That is a 611 code. If it does not have the info on it the seller says it has then you'll know. If the car pans out then this information is vital, that PHS will be the key to $$$. 

Many show pics of the VIN, I'd recommend not doing that. Ya don't wanna make a thief's life easy.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Buy both since you have the money, clean em up, post some pics and let us see. Two very rare cars even for America. The 70 is the same colors as my original high school car. Love the story, hope it's true.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I agree. Since money and resources are not even an issue, buy both cars and have them restored or restored them to your liking, and please post the progress! Thanks!!!!


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## fredyG (Apr 18, 2012)

Both owners are emotionally attach to their toys (like kids) so I have to be patience. If is, its going to take time because I'm then one that does the restorations and since I sold my shop, I have to find a new and safe place. Meanwhile I'm going to see the third GTO a green 68. This one is in a close garage for years half dissambled. For those exceptical, this guy is a long time friend and colector that I have restore and maintained some cars for him. That's why I know the car. It was waiting its turn to be restore. A story, one day my friend bodygard was taking my friends 64 Corvette to my shop for maintanance (friend was travelling) the bodygard didn't know how to manage the 'vette, (it had a 454+ engine) the car arrive with the engine in the left seat!!! and the remaines of a tree in the windshield. It was a Black/black leather. I'm attaching a photo of the Ferrari yellow "almost" finish 64 vette. and a Ferrari Dino after service. By the way I'm also including the GTO 68 and 70 "half" VIN. I whant say that the photos I'm attaching is just, so others distinguish members of this Forum understand that I'm not a <quote> late april fool or an interwebs ????? insted of an experience and correct person thats coming back to the segment with his first GTO trying to share its findings with the rest of the community. Thank you all of you that trusted my words. Remember.. one good picture SAYS a thousand words


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## fredyG (Apr 18, 2012)

GTOJudge and 05GTO. Still defending myselfe from a "misunderstanding" of my person, in my yesterday tread at 10:10am I said that my friend the 70 GTO owner mentioned to me that the car had a funny thing, pulling a kind of wire produces a loud exhaust noise etc, etc ?? and you told me that the option only was able for a few month (actually 3), well getting deep in my investigation of the 70s GTOs, I found this artcle from Pontiac GTO (1970) where they say that only during the month of november 69 through January 70 GM offered this option called V.O.E. until the SB IV Humbler commercial etc. etc., (the Super Bowl IV was in January 11 1970). Know what??? The production date of this 70 GTO is 01A, color is Atol Blue and interior is Sandalwood. Could it be truth that is has the Driver-controlled....... option ? I'm posting the engine bay plate with some numbers painted over for security reasons. Thank you. keep in touch


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

The PHS will be your best friend.


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## blue_gto_70 (Aug 29, 2005)

Does anyone else on these forums have a 70 with the VOE option? All the talk in this thread is kind of exciting since My dad's 70 GTO has it and it's the only one i've ever seen. Pretty cool to have


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