# transmission swap



## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

Wanting to swap the powerglide for something with more gears so i'm not revving up at 70 on the highway. Just need a good recommendation for company make and model of tranny. fire at will.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

xcmac26 said:


> Wanting to swap the powerglide for something with more gears so i'm not revving up at 70 on the highway. Just need a good recommendation for company make and model of tranny. fire at will.


TH350 is a drop in swap and has 3 gear ratios but is still a direct drive in high gear which WON'T change the final rpm. 200R4 is an easy swap and will provide a lock up converter for 4 ratios which will drop the final drive rpm. 

A change of rear gear ratio will drop the rpm too.

Then there's always the manual option.....5 or 6 speed overdrive trans. 
All of the originally available transmissions of that era are 1 to 1, direct final drive ratio and will not drop the rpm. You either need to install a newer overdrive trans or change the rear gear to get a lower highway rpm.

Check this out. Very good info;

Automatic Transmission Identification

I tried to paste the whole page with pics and all on here but it turned out like doo doo. Click on the link above. I am saving it for future reference.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Power glides are awesome trannies. The easiest, probably cheapest thing to do is to swap out the rear gear for a taller one, which is what I would do. Keep the original tranny! :cheers


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## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

Rukee said:


> Power glides are awesome trannies. The easiest, probably cheapest thing to do is to swap out the rear gear for a taller one, which is what I would do. Keep the original tranny! :cheers


I know the powerglide's great, but if all i did was swap the gear i feel like i'd be dogging the engine and lose more acceleration than I want to. Unless you think there's enough torque there to light up the tires even with a taller gear.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

You should be fine! What gear is in there now?


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## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

i believe 3.55:1 but i'm not an expert on these things yet. the 700r4 tranny was recommended by a buddy with a 57 bel aire and got me thinking.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

TMP and Rukee have good advice. I had a 2 speed '65 with a 3.23 rear gear, and it would smoke the tire (no posi) at 35mph when you put your foot in it. It would also smoke the tire like made when it shifted from low to high. Bulletproof. The car was a 64,000 mile original, with a carter four barrel. For an upgrade, the 200R is stronger than the 700, and an easier install. It's a toss-up between changing the gear and keeping the stock trans or keeping the gear and changing to an overdrive trans. Your call!!


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## auburnconsulting (Nov 3, 2008)

i disagree stock for stock the 200r4 is weaker than the 700r4. however each can be built for 700+hp. the 200r4 is easier to find with the bop pattern but you can find 700r4 with bop. i would try the gearvendors overdrive if you have the cash.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

The 700r and the 200r are metric trannies, the # states how much torque (in metric terms) the tranny will handle. A 700r4 is a better stronger tranny then the 200r. A stock turbo 400 will handle 400 foot pounds of torque, and a stock turbo 350 will handle 350 lbs of torque.
At least that was the way it was explained to me by a tranny guy.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I dunno. I Think the tranny guy's all wet. All GTO's came with over 435 foot punds of torque, which would mean that the TH400 is inadequate. We know that aint true. No, it's just a model designation. I do know that a 700R4 would GRENADE if you put 700 ft pounds to it in stock form!!! It sounds like we all need to do some homework here!! Especially me! But, from experience, the Gear Vendors is strong, works great, but is expensive!!


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

High Performance Pontiac online has a lot of info on the 700 trans. I also did a little research and found that it is stronger and better than the 200. It is still much weaker than the 400 in stock form. The trick thing about it is, it has a low first gear, and a high 4th gear, so your off line accelleration is better than a TH400, and your cruising RPM is better than a 400. A "stage 3" trans from the folks mentioned will handle a lot of torque, and is about 1.5 to 2k. Interesting stuff out there on the internet!!


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

geeteeohguy said:


> High Performance Pontiac online has a lot of info on the 700 trans. I also did a little research and found that it is stronger and better than the 200. It is still much weaker than the 400 in stock form. The trick thing about it is, it has a low first gear, and a high 4th gear, so your off line accelleration is better than a TH400, and your cruising RPM is better than a 400. A "stage 3" trans from the folks mentioned will handle a lot of torque, and is about 1.5 to 2k. Interesting stuff out there on the internet!!


Jeff, I spent some time looking into these tranny's as well yesterday. I have a pg in my 67 Camaro and the TH200-4R with a mild build looks like a good replacement candidate to take advantage of the same things you pointed out. The low 1st gear and the overdrive for highway. The 200 is an easier swap than the 700 too. I have all the pedals and linkage to change over to a manual too and a good used Muncie wouldn't cost as much as a stage 2 TH200 but then I still wouldn't have the overdrive.....what to do....:confused


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I'd put the 200R-4 in it and enjoy the increased performance and quieter and more efficent highway cruising!!!! And I'm a 4-speed guy!


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Seriously, the 200R`s were stock trannies for most all the V-6 auto cars. Unless it was built to the hilt, and even then I'd have my doubts, I wouldn't even consider it for a higher HP stock V-8 like a GTO. Heck I'd have doubt about a built up 700R4, but I'd do that way before a 200r.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I just read an article on line, the guy's name is Rock, and he's running a '65 GTO with a 200R4 and a 421, and his best 1/4 mile time is 10.26! He's been running that trans for years, but it is built! I think I'll leave the Muncie in my '65, though!


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## auburnconsulting (Nov 3, 2008)

yes the 200r4 and 700r4 can both be built to handle the hp and torque . both are real expensive options. the 700r4 has a lower first gear so it will be able to do well with the 3.55 or 3.73 gears and still have overdrive. it is a personal choice. if i had the mula i would go with the gearvenders cause you can engage it or turn it off and won't need to change the rear gear, trans mount, crossmember or gear linkage. we have much good luck with 700r4 with transpacks and vacum torque lock up mods. all 200r4 we had with same items all burned up or broke clutch packs and convertors.


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## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

so back on point here before going to all kinds of different tranny options. What specifically should I be looking for in a 700R4 to match bolt patterns and minimize the overall "PITA factor". For the differential...what gear would you guys recommend? I've got the original 350 which is stock (for now).


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

It's GOING to be somewhat of a PITA. The 700R4 is a Chevy bolt pattern, and was not made to fit your car. You will need adaptors, crossmember fabrication, driveshaft fabrication, shifter mods, and so on. I recommend getting on line and doing all the research you can to learn as much as possible before pulling the trigger. "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance!" (Don't ask me how I know about THAT one!!!)


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Jeff's right. The 700 is going to be a PITA to install and by the time you get all the adapters the price difference for a Gearvenders overdrive isn't much. If you plan to put any performance mods on the car I recommend the GV overdrive. I wouldn't be afraid to put a built 200 behind the 350hp 350 engine in my Camaro but there is a significant difference in weight of the vehicle and torque output of the engine in a full frame GTO. The GV overdrive will be a strong possibility on my 4 speed GTO at some point too.
Good Luck with your decision.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I agree. If I did anything at all, I'd install a non-invasive, bulletproof Gearvendors unit. An easy, one-day install with no grief. I've experienced them, and they just plain work.


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## colonial83 (Jun 7, 2008)

I'm trying to make the same decision. Gearvendors quoted me a price of $2595 for my 2-speed '64. But I'm leaning towards the built up 200r4 to have the best of both worlds. Decisions, decisions, what to do!!


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Do the GearVender unit!! Keeps your car stock and you can shift into overdrive at anytime. :cheers


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## colonial83 (Jun 7, 2008)

Hey Rukee,
Your opinion is well respected. I do like originality. The Gearvendor unit was my original choice, but I've been told the three speed would make the driveability so much more enjoyable, and the over drive on the 200r4 is .67. On the gearvendor it is .87 Multiply that times the rear gear ratio and you have the final drive ratio in overdrive. I'll wait and see how much I can afford after the paint job. I have so much more to do before I get to that point.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

colonial83 said:


> Hey Rukee,
> Your opinion is well respected. I do like originality. The Gearvendor unit was my original choice, but I've been told the three speed would make the driveability so much more enjoyable, and the over drive on the 200r4 is .67. On the gearvendor it is .87 Multiply that times the rear gear ratio and you have the final drive ratio in overdrive. I'll wait and see how much I can afford after the paint job. I have so much more to do before I get to that point.


 The ideal situation here would be to install a TH350 WITH the overdrive. GV's website explains how you use the od in all 3 gears and have 6 speeds and still have the benefit of od on the top to reduce the rpm. That way you don't have to screw around with the lockup torque converter and it's issues in an older car not designed for them. The TH350 is an almost bolt in swap with the pg too. Change the selector detent ramp and position lens on the console and it looks factory.


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## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

Last untouched issue...What diferential ratio am I looking at? If stock is 3.55 should i drop to a 3.xx or even 2.xx? bear in mind this is with keeping the powerglide. dont see the mileage improving much by adding gears, just want to drop rpm on the highway.

edit: where can I find a taller gear for the transfer case? I doubt the local parts store is my best bet.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

colonial83 said:


> Hey Rukee,
> Your opinion is well respected. I do like originality. The Gearvendor unit was my original choice, but I've been told the three speed would make the driveability so much more enjoyable, and the over drive on the 200r4 is .67. On the gearvendor it is .87 Multiply that times the rear gear ratio and you have the final drive ratio in overdrive. I'll wait and see how much I can afford after the paint job. I have so much more to do before I get to that point.


Driveability?? Who doesn't like the driveability of a powerglide?? I remember winding those cars up to about 70-80 before shifting into drive! 
If all your looking to do is reduce RPM on the highway, the rear gear change is the cheapest and quickest. If you had 3.55 now, going to a 3.36 or even 3.08`s would make a significant difference.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

If you have decided on a gear change, I have a 67 Camaro with 3:31's and the PG trans. I'm running P255X50X15's and I don't take it over 65 mph, cause the rpm is quite high yet.
Here is a REALLY slick ratio calculator MOTOR - A Rear Axle Calculator plug in the rpm you want to be at on the highway with your current ratio and trans final gear (1.00) and tire size. It will show what speed 6 different ratios will yield for a road speed.


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## xcmac26 (Dec 1, 2008)

Great little widget. Looks like i'm chasing a 3.08 gear. who knows where to find one?


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

I bought my Auburn carrier and gear set from Randy's.
Randy's Ring & Pinion


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

There ya go.... Auto Parts: YG GM8.2-308 - High performance Yukon Ring & Pinion gear set for GM 8.2 in a 3.08 ratio. Yukon exclusively uses 8620 steel in all their Ring & Pinion sets for high strength and long life. They use the latest designs and manufacturing tech Nice gear set at an affordable cost. You don't NEED to change the carrier but most people do at the same time to get a posi. I prefer the Eaton posi's because they are rebuildable and the Auburn's aren't but many people have the Auburn's and are happy with them.


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## Jeff's Classics (Feb 24, 2010)

geeteeohguy said:


> I agree. If I did anything at all, I'd install a non-invasive, bulletproof Gearvendors unit. An easy, one-day install with no grief. I've experienced them, and they just plain work.


Does the transmission tunnel require any work (hammering, cutting, etc) to fit the Gear Vendors in the '68-'69 with TH400? I emailed Gear Vendors this question last weekend but haven't gotten a reply. I'm planning to do this upgrade on my '68 GTO if there aren't any body/frame mods required.
Thanks!
Jeff


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Anyone consider the 4L80e ??


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

On every car I own that is auto. But there is this thing called a 6L80... grab the desk....... ready it has 6 gears.... hold the phone there is a 6L90 even. I think I hit my head on the desk I am so dizzy with Joy!

Whats the difference you say well so did I and the answer:
6L80 or 6L90? - PerformanceTrucks.net Forums

I need 7 of them...wonder if i can get a discount?


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## twinjracing (Aug 28, 2010)

Well I'm doing a 700r4 in one of my 66's i have it it works so i'll deal with what i haft to to get it to work the short list.

Addapter to motor
Mod cross member 
new drive shaft (don't have it any way but one to be cut down)
Trans converter lock up swich
Shifter i can make fit consel.

I my thoughts It's worth the head ache.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

LIKETHAT,problem with the 6l80e is the 1st gear....so low! Tell me more about the 4l80e!!!!!!!!!


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

This is from LS1 tech site posted by James B.



> For starters the TH400 and the 4L80-E have absolutely no aluminum power-transferring parts inside. The planetary gears are much larger. The input and output shafts dwarf the 60's. Both shifts in a 400 are clutch-packs and all 3 shifts in an 80 are too, the TH400 (and 4L80-E) do not shift with bands. (bands are used only for over-run and reverse in a TH400/4L80-E) You can get a clutch pack to transfer large amounts of power much more linearly than a band because a band is somewhat self energizing as the rotation of the drum wraps it tighter causing it to grab which ultimately breaks hard parts and results in jolting crappy shifts. The 60's 2-3 shift is a multiple-event sequence where the band must disengage and the 3-4 clutch pack must engage. If the timing is slightly off you will either get bog from the band not letting go fast enough or 3-4 coming in too soon, or you will get flare up from the 3-4 coming in too late or the band releasing too soon. This simply cannot happen in a TH400 or 4L80-E! Also, the gear ratios in the TH400 are close-ratio. Although the three gears don't go as deep or cover the same range as the 60, there will be no bog or flat spot after the 1-2 shift when the RPM's fall into a hole with the 4L60-E because of the huge difference in gear ratios. The TH400 will shift closer and stay in power band even with a very mild converter compared to a 60 with a very high-stall converter.


Now the 4l80 is a bit more money from its initial price of the transmission and any parts to rebuild or replace for performance. In stock form they are very good as long as your not using it for a straight drag car.

This is a good one to read I know its chevy but it is 64 to 72 abody.
Transmission Swapping Tech - Tech Article - Chevy High Performance Magazine

Knowledge About Overdrives 4L80 E Photo 9










One for the Poncho
Stock Torque Converters - High Performance Pontiac Magazine


I have been wanting to do the 4L80 since 2002. I bought the core from a friends 95 G30 van for $200, $75 of it was a core charge, back in 2004. I went to pick it up from the guy swapping it for my buddy with the core money. I get there and he said he traded it in and why wouldn't I want a 700r4, because it was a better trans. The whole time he is rattling off about it, I was looking at the 4L80 on the floor in the next bay. I looked at him pointed at it and said I am not a dumb A** and I will be telling my friend that your a liar and to get his Van out of here. He had a 72 Chevelle big block. So I am sure that is where it was going.
It made me very mad as the trans had just slipped once and he took it over to get it swapped the next day from when it had trouble. Well from opening my mouth about it to the guy with the van, I guess I became his personal mechanic. :willy: Needed to keep my mouth shut. That van is always broke. He said I could have the whole van when he gets a new one. I am still waiting


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Thank you for the links and info! Do you have any idea if a 4L80 will fit in a 67 GTO with out a floor pan mod......not that i haven't already modded everything else??!!!:willy::rofl:


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

Jeff's Classics said:


> Does the transmission tunnel require any work (hammering, cutting, etc) to fit the Gear Vendors in the '68-'69 with TH400? I emailed Gear Vendors this question last weekend but haven't gotten a reply. I'm planning to do this upgrade on my '68 GTO if there aren't any body/frame mods required.
> Thanks!
> Jeff


i dont know the answer to your question but i would be surprised if something doesnt have to be tweaked. my buddy ran one for about a year then took it out. but he is a weird guy so maybe it is the way to go.:lol:


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

I don't know. I have never read that any thing was needed in an A-body. But I guess you'll never know till you try.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

:agree


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## twinjracing (Aug 28, 2010)

Hod rod had an write up in this isue about going from the TH400 to the 4L80E. i just read with all mesmurments in it of the 4l80 and th400. Figerd I let you guys know


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