# Oiling Issues?



## 69-er (Feb 8, 2011)

I swear, I have never seen an engine so hell bent on self-destruction in my life! For your reading pleasure, (It's long) take your pick between any of these problems… (For those not familiar with my previous post, "Loose Wrist Pin", this a Pontiac 400 engine.)

One common denominator I am seeing in this tear down is the excessive wear, (IMO) possibly due to a lack of lubrication. This engine has about 1,000 miles since the second rebuild. Oil pressure is 20PSI hot at idle and close to 60PSI hot at 2,000 RPM.

#1. I can feel a ridge on the cylinders! The walls are already polished with only an occasional hint of the original crosshatch visible. They are KB hypereutectic pistons with moly rings and .003” clearance, according to the machine shop. He says that’s a “perfect” clearance. KB recommends .002” - .0025”. For supercharged, racing, nitro, etc., clearances can be up around .004” - .005”. So I guess .003” is OK, maybe a little noisy. I assume the higher heat in race engines expands the pistons more than a street engine. I don’t have the necessary tools to measure them myself.

#2. The rod and main bearings again seem to have more wear than normal. When I tore down the engine after it over heated, it had about 7,000 miles on it and the rod bearings were worn to the point of some of them were showing copper on the rod side. That was my bad for not investigating this more. Based on my Plastigage measurements, (I know), rod clearances and main clearances have increased by .0005 - .001”. Apparently, these clearances don’t affect the oil pressure. The oil pump had no wear to speak of. I couldn’t find clearance specifications anywhere.

I found that Melling doesn’t offer a high volume pump, just a high pressure. Since this pump can keep up the volume with these clearances I figure a high pressure one will definitely increase the pressure. BTW, I wonder if the oil gauge I used could be erroneous? I might do a bench test and run the pump up to its bypass pressure and compare different gauges.

#3. On the first rebuild two lifters had a narrow groove on their faces, which seemed to indicate that they were not rotating. I changed the cam and lifters. When I was troubleshooting this knock, some of them didn’t appear to be rotating. A rep at Comp Cams seemed to think it was an oiling issue. Upon teardown, no grooves were found. Funny looking wear patterns though. Using the side of another lifter as a straight edge, a random sample shows them to still have a crown.

I also tested them by installing the cam and a lifter with a pushrod and rotating the cam with my drill and putting hand pressure on the pushrods and they all rotated somewhat. Don’t know how scientific that is or what that proves… The cam lobes all have the same wear pattern too. Again, not what I would expect for a low mileage cam. I’m used to seeing wear across the nose of the lobes and then it narrows down as it travels toward the base.

#4 Finally, I have ½” slop in the timing chain. Too much? It’s a stock style, non-roller chain.


----------



## 69-er (Feb 8, 2011)

*One More Picture*

....


----------



## 67GTOCoupe (Mar 6, 2013)

I have torn down and built more engine that I can count and I have never seen a wear patter on the cam lobes like that on any engine. It almost looks as if the cam was walking back and forth.
Melling pumps are some of the best. A stock engine should have no need for a high volume oil pump.
The do make a oil pressure test kit that is basicly a manual gauge that comes with adapter that are meant to be threaded into the oil pressure switch or sender hole to verify the true oil pressure.
I would not even know where to start with what you have going on there. It sure looks like oil starvation when you see grooves like that in the bearing and copper showing through.


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

The shop that built the engine... do they know Pontiacs or are they "just another Chevy shop" who thinks that they do?
One of the first things I'd suspect would be that they left out the infamous "hidden" lifter oil gallery plug that's in front of the distributor drive gear (by in front of, I mean it's on the inside, between the drive gear and the lifter gallery and it's a screw-in plug --- not the pressed in one that you can see when looking at the rear of the block from the tranny/bellhousing side.)

Bear


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

That looks bad, I agree. A ton of wear, and weird patterns. My gut tells me two things: machine work out of specs and done in a dirty environment/engine wasn't thoroughly cleaned of debris. I've torn apart engines with 170,000-200,000 miles that have nowhere _near _the wear you're showing. My advice? Crate it and ship it to someone who KNOWS PONTIACS like Central Va. Machine Service. You're at the 'throwing good money after bad' point, now.


----------



## 67GTOCoupe (Mar 6, 2013)

I definetely agree with Bear and GTOguy. I think it is time to retreat on this one and go all the way back to step one. Whoever rebuild that engine has done something seriously wrong. I would have to assume that just about any of the wearable parts are no good.
The quality of machine shop work has really declined over these past years.

My last fun adventure with shoddy machine shop work was purchasing a remanufactured head for a Dodge 3.8 V-6 Put it all back together and it fired right up ran good for about 5 second then started misfiring. The problem. Some clown took a head with a burn valve and to save 10 bucks on a new valve cut the valve face down to resurface it. He remove so much he sunk the valve so far into the head the valve could not close! Had to do it all over again for free! Looks like you might be the victim of some of the same type of low quality work and I still for the life of me can not figure out what anyone could to a motor to make a cam lobe wear like that!?? Please when you find out I would love to know.


----------



## 69-er (Feb 8, 2011)

This shop does everything from imports all the way up to big diesels. Really don't know their experience on Pontiacs.

I thought about the possibility of a plug that was missing somewhere, but that particular one is installed.

I came up with another theory:

#1. With the gouges in the cylinder, I figure the engine should have been pumping oil like crazy. All I ever saw was slight smoking usually at fast idle.

#2 That suggests there isn't much oil being splashed on the cylinder walls.

So, how can I have apparently good oil pressure yet very little oil being slung off the crank? I'm thinking a restriction somewhere between immediately before the first bearing and the pump. That would give normal oil pressure yet no flow to the rest of the engine.

I'm grasping at straws now but I have to start somewhere! I'll be looking at the block to test this.

I'm also thinking of mocking up the block without the oil pan and run the pump with a 1/2" drill to see what kind of oiling action there is. I did this before on a SBC with low RPM oil pressure problems and found a leak between the rear cap and pump.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The piston rings are above the wristpin, and are sealing the cylinder well enough to keep the oil smoke down. Yes, you could have oiling problems. Yes, there could be missing galley plugs, and or galleys full of metal shavings and trash. Yes, the block could be out of square, and may need to be line bored. Yes, the crankshaft could be tapered and egg shaped and or bent and need grinding. Yes, the cylinders could have been bored without a boring bar and could be out of spec. And on and on. The only way to build a good house is to start with a good foundation. You need to strip it all the way down and start from square one and go for a complete redo. That, or buy one already done and drop it in. Trying to fix what you have and test what you have without a complete hot tank on up is a waste of time and effort. It really is.


----------



## 69-er (Feb 8, 2011)

Yes, but the rings still travel over much of the length of the grooves. It seems like it should be allowing a large amount of oil to get up in the chambers, don't you think?

This block is torn completely down and will be hot tanked and cleaned as it would be for a rebuild. We gonna have to start from scratch.

We have to attempt a rebuild with a sleeve as it's a matching numbers block. But, until I figure out this oiling issue, it will not go back together. That's when I figure I will attempt the tests I described, with all new and correct clearances.


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

69-er, where are you located? If you're anywhere near Virginia (and even if you're not) I know someone who I'd put money on has either seen this problem before or can give y ou very good advice regarding where to go from here: Jim Lehart, proprietor of Central Virginia Machine (Central Virginia Machine Service - Home of the ***** Engine!) 434-767-9915.
He's on here (Mr. PBody) but doesn't get on very often.

Bear


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

69-er, I sent links of your posts/photos to Jim. he emailed me back and said:

"Rob,

I went out and read the threads you sent. My instinct says the rods are being "hung" backwards, like a Chevy. Bearing "tangs" go TOWARD the cam, and away from the pan rail. We see this all too often. 

Also, let him know, M54D is a "high volume" pump (60 lb.). M54F is a high pressure pump (80 lb.). The "standard" pump had a 5/8" diameter tube and in general, is no longer available.

Jim"

Bear


----------



## 69-er (Feb 8, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> 69-er, where are you located? If you're anywhere near Virginia (and even if you're not) I know someone who I'd put money on has either seen this problem before or can give y ou very good advice regarding where to go from here: Jim Lehart, proprietor of Central Virginia Machine (Central Virginia Machine Service - Home of the ***** Engine!) 434-767-9915.
> He's on here (Mr. PBody) but doesn't get on very often.
> 
> Bear


I'm in New Mexico, but I sure can try to contact him. I was even thinking of Jim Hand, but I bet he's too busy or doesn't have the time for the amount of letters I'm sure he gets.

Thanks!


----------



## 69-er (Feb 8, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> 69-er, I sent links of your posts/photos to Jim. he emailed me back and said:
> 
> "Rob,
> 
> ...


Rob,

Do you mean Jim Hand? Cool if it is! I didn't see your post until after I answered Bear's.

I checked the rod orientation each time each new pistons were installed on the first two builds and the squirt holes, along with the tangs, are towards the cam.

Do you know why this would cause an oiling issue?:confused

I researched Melling pumps and was aware of the old 5/8" tube but didn't know the 54D was considered a high volume pump. Good to know.


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

69-er said:


> Rob,
> 
> Do you mean Jim Hand? Cool if it is! I didn't see your post until after I answered Bear's.


Rob and Bear --- both me 

And "Jim" in my post above was Jim Lehart - the guy I've been talking about. BTW, if you'll look in the credits to Jim Hand's book, you'll see Jim Lehart listed there. He was the primary author of the "building your short block" section in the book.

Bear - aka - Rob


----------



## Joe'sToy (Mar 9, 2012)

I had this same issue on my '65. I posted about it last year, just after I picked up my girl. Was only getting smoke when I down shifted and burned a little too much oil, which I thought was normal. I pulled the motor two weeks ago, so I could change my rear main seal, which was leaking pretty good. Before I pulled the motor I did a leak down test and found #4 cylinder was only at 18% compare to all the other cylinders.

So tore down the motor and found two things, all my rods where a half turn out and the crank balancer was only half there.

I had motor dropped off at a local engine shop, a one man operation. He only does work by referrals, Jim Davis is his name, he's 63 years old and has done a lot of work on Pontiac engines. He went through my block, rods crank and heads. I was very lucky as he called me in and showed me what he found, crank bearings where down to copper, rod bearings had a sideways wear pattern. He did a polish on my crank, new hardened valve seats, machined valve guides so we could put on positive valve seals.

Everything was checked and doubled checked, block bores didn't need any boring, still had the cross hatch on them.

I now have the motor back in the car, it runs perfect, nice and strong and not a single puff of smoke at all.

So with a completely re-built motor with new bearings, dished pistons, valves job and new balancer, plus more I'm not listing, all total was $3155.00 with a 1 year warrantry.

So for the long post, and hijacking your thread, just wanted to share my oiling issue as well.

Joe.


----------



## 69-er (Feb 8, 2011)

Joe and Bear,

How does the rod orientation affect oil flow, or at least cause wear issues?


----------



## 69-er (Feb 8, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> Rob and Bear --- both me
> 
> And "Jim" in my post above was Jim Lehart - the guy I've been talking about.
> Bear - aka - Rob


OK, I see it now. Your posts were on separate pages and I also didn't catch your user ID.


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

69-er said:


> Joe and Bear,
> 
> How does the rod orientation affect oil flow, or at least cause wear issues?


Well for one thing, the rod bearings have chamfers to clear the fillets on the journals next to the counterweight, but only on the outside edges. If they're reversed then they're going to be too tight and various "bad things" will happen. The rod bearing halves have a definite upper and lower orientation because of this. If they're installed upside down then the chamfer will be on the wrong side of the rod. That's something else you should check. Also rod side clearance - too much allows too much oil to escape out of the rod bearings. I'm suspecting your loose pin and oil problems are all symptoms of the same issue. That one rod might have gotten hot enough to loosen around the pin because of friction induced heat.

Bear.


----------



## Joe'sToy (Mar 9, 2012)

69-er said:


> Joe and Bear,
> 
> How does the rod orientation affect oil flow, or at least cause wear issues?


In my case, with my rods in wrong, it caused my rings to not sit and seal properly. It also caused low oiling for my rod bearings. Not having a proper vibration dampner also caused my crank bearings to wear out too.

My motor would have failed if I didn't do anything, so I'm glad I listened to the more senior members of this forum. I now have a very strong, tight torque monster in my '65, with no oil leaks or exhaust smoke.


----------



## 69-er (Feb 8, 2011)

Results of engine mock up and oil pressure test:

All lubricated parts were installed: crank, rods, cam, lifters. All plugs installed. Oil filter installed with oil pressure gauge installed at filter adapter. Oil pump screen removed and hose inserted into inlet hole.  With no rings installed, the crank turned over very easily by hand using the front snout. Same with the cam. No binding.

Inserted prelube tool. Drill is rated at 600 RPM so with a load I estimated 400-500 RPM. That translates to 800-1000 engine RPM.

Old oil change oil was used. Oil pressure was 55 PSI at full speed on drill. Even at a crawl, maybe 400 engine RPM?, I got 20 PSI. That would be expected with old and cold oil.

Oil is draining everywhere from the bearings of the crank mains, rods, cam, and also from the lifter pushrod cups. It took just a few seconds for the lifters to start oozing.

A few observations:

The front two plugs were leaking. I didn’t seal them so that’s probably why. I was hoping that was the problem until I rotated the cam and got squirted with oil coming out from behind the retaining plate. It squirts once every rotation I guess to oil the timing set. With that kind of leak the plug seepage is negligible.

I tried monitoring oil pressure from the port by the distributor. Same pressure. I was looking for a difference before and after the filter.

For an experiment, I removed the galley plug first in line with the flow, driver’s) oil pressure was zero. (A pump without a restriction can really pump!) I reinstalled that plug and removed the other, (last in line) and the pressure made it to 20 PSI.

I realized that there is apparently nothing wrong with the oil flow. So I started to theorize that the Fram filter, that I have learned a lot of people don’t recommend, may have had its element blow open, allowing dirty oil to continuously recirculate. I cut it open and it looked OK to me. (Of course the first filter could have blown. It's long gone.) I also checked the filter housing/adapter oil bypass. The fiber disc had a nice ring pattern from its seat. The spring was intact and holding the disc to the seat. Looks just like it did the first time I assembled the engine.

Another observation that still nags me is the fact the gouges in the cylinder should have made the engine smoke like crazy IMO. There seems to be enough oil drainage that would splash enough oil on the walls to get oil up into the combustion chamber. But, since I have nothing to compare it to, I don’t know if it should flow more.

So, I’m back to square one. I can’t see anything obviously wrong.

So, I’m gonna wait for the machine shop to call back to see what else he has come up with as far as replacement parts. Using a different block that he found is looking better all the time. I’m also going to see how much he would charge to assemble the block. I’m gun shy now. It’s time step back. I just can’t justify me assembling it again without finding something out of line. If it wasn’t the fact that I can’t really tell if the motor is wearing excessively without tearing it down again, I might attempt it. But to drive it for who knows how many thousands of miles and visualize the motor eating itself would drive me crazy.


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Considering that all that metal from the cylinder wall had to go somewhere - like all through the rest of the engine. Perhaps that's what caused the bearing wear. At the very least, it needs to come completely apart, all the plugs removed, and thoroughly cleaned. When I built mine I cut threads with a pipe tap and used screw-in gallery plugs everywhere. You do have to be careful to use plugs on the front that aren't deep enough to block the oil passages there. Another question: how were the rods/pins assembled and who did it?

Bear


----------



## 69-er (Feb 8, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> Considering that all that metal from the cylinder wall had to go somewhere - like all through the rest of the engine. When I built mine I cut threads with a pipe tap and used screw-in gallery plugs everywhere. You do have to be careful to use plugs on the front that aren't deep enough to block the oil passages there. Another question: how were the rods/pins assembled and who did it?
> 
> Bear


Well, the bearings were also worn after the first rebuild. (Which I attributed to detonation). But, I can't remember what the cylinders looked like.

Threaded plugs is a good idea.

The machine shop assembled the pins. The rod ends are discolored so I'm sure they used heat to install them. That's why I am thinking the rods may have been overheated causing the pin not to have the correct interference fit. I don't know if they use a torch setup or an electric heater. I still want to do a "press check" to see if the other pins are loose.


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I understand being gun-shy about doing it yourself, but consider this: no shop is going to care as much about your engine as you do, nor are they going to be willing to put as much time and care into assembling it as you will. If you don't already have the books by Jim Hand and Rocky Rotella, they make good assembly guides and also are good about pointing out the "gotchas" that are unique to Pontiac like the hidden gallery plug and the correct way to install the cam gear/pump eccentric. Then there's also the tricks - like drilling that hidden plug to provide oiling to the distributor drive gear.

Plus, for me personally, I really like being able to -KNOW- with 100% certainty exactly what was done and how it was done on my engine. 

Bear


----------



## 69-er (Feb 8, 2011)

Just to satisfy my need to know I have done everything I could possible do, I ordered Rocky's book a few days ago. It figures it came out after this engine's first rebuild in 2010. I never looked for another one since then. I have Jim's book.

The only reason I am considering getting a shop to do it is there would be some sort of warranty. I eating this one with the help of machine shop. We haven't worked out any details on how they are going to help. Before I discovered the loose pin they said they wouldn't consider covering all their work as they didn't assemble the block. I can understand that. Now, I'm hoping they will cover everything needed to re assemble the block (If they wind up admitting their screw up on the wrist pin)


----------

