# e85 or gas



## bobby326 (Dec 13, 2009)

i am thinking of converting my new engine to e85 .its a 400 with edelbrock heads and all the goodies. want to know if any body was considering doing the same or know someone who has.this is what i know. to convert u have to buy a new e85 carb for 600-900 depending on waht cfm you get or convert yours for 2-300. you have to convert cause you need 30% more fuel to rum on ethonal cause it burns faster. you have to change the gets squirters and gaskets cause ethonal eats ruber gaskets. and i believe you need to change your gas tank and lines to stainless cause ethonal eats normal metal. the pros of converting is that you gain more power cause e85 is 105 octain. your mpg actually grops alittle cause u burn 30% more fuel but thats ok because e85 costs less than regular gas. they say that your engine will run 15-20 degrees cooler on ethonal ( thats great for pontiac guys) and that your engine will have less carbon deposits cause it burn alot cleaner than gas. this is what ive learned from research but i have not talked to my engine builder yet to get a pros opinion. if anybody has any more info or opinions please share


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## freethinker (Nov 14, 2009)

bobby326 said:


> gaskets cause ethonal eats ruber gaskets. and i believe you need to change your gas tank and lines to stainless cause ethonal eats normal metal.


no you dont. stock gaskets are fine. the only problem is the accelerator pump rubber. costs about 2 bucks. a metal needle and seat is a good idea too. and no you dont have to change your tank or lines. stock metal fuel parts are fine.


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## pontiac (Mar 6, 2011)

since you already have edelbrock heads, the compression ratio is already set for gas, so extra octane is not necessary, there will be little problems with cooling. Now for the extra cost for the carb, cleaning the fuel system for ethanol, since gasoline deposits will break loose with alcohol. Now for the inconvenience of having to go get E85 and the lack of not being able to run gasoline, would limit you on any extended travel. The cost difference is not enough unless you plan to just race and trailer the car.


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## bobby326 (Dec 13, 2009)

ok thank you for the correct info freethinker. sorry for the wrong info guys. this is just an idea thant im concidering. wont to get as much info and advice before i make a decision


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## GhostTown (Jan 25, 2011)

My opinion is that it's a little early to be converting classics and hot rods over to E85. I would wait until the government finally mandates E85 (if they do), and even then wait until E85 is at virtually every station.

When I'm forced to do it, I'll do it. Until then, I'll proudly burn as many fossil fuels as I can while smiling at the prius drivers.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

bobby326 said:


> i am thinking of converting my new engine to e85 .its a 400 with edelbrock heads and all the goodies. want to know if any body was considering doing the same or know someone who has.this is what i know. to convert u have to buy a new e85 carb for 600-900 depending on waht cfm you get or convert yours for 2-300. you have to convert cause you need 30% more fuel to rum on ethonal cause it burns faster. you have to change the gets squirters and gaskets cause ethonal eats ruber gaskets. and i believe you need to change your gas tank and lines to stainless cause ethonal eats normal metal. the pros of converting is that you gain more power cause e85 is 105 octain. your mpg actually grops alittle cause u burn 30% more fuel but thats ok because e85 costs less than regular gas. they say that your engine will run 15-20 degrees cooler on ethonal ( thats great for pontiac guys) and that your engine will have less carbon deposits cause it burn alot cleaner than gas. this is what ive learned from research but i have not talked to my engine builder yet to get a pros opinion. if anybody has any more info or opinions please share


I know there's a lot of minsinformation and misconception floating around about E85. I'm not an expert, I've never used it. Thumpin455 on this board seems to have a lot of experience with it, so I'd get with him. E85 is much more resistant to detonation, so you can (and probably NEED) more compression to run it - more than you could get away with using gasolone. You'll need to jet your fuel system richer in order to get the correct air/fuel mixture for E85. It also burns cooler, so your cooling system won't have to work as hard. E85 "likes" water and will mix with it readily (unlike gasoline) so you'll have to be careful with steel components in your fuel system that will be susceptible to rust/corrosion. I've "heard" things about it being tough on certain kinds of rubber, but I don't have the details and am unable to separate fact from fiction on that topic.

My opinion is, if you want/need to run more compression than you could safely get away with on gasoline, and if you've got E85 readily available, it might be a pretty good idea.

Bear


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## dimitri (Feb 13, 2009)

I think E 85 is the EPA's flavor of the month. I do not think it will be around for very long. I live in very green Cali and the nearest station is 100 miles away. Plus this is costing the Auto manufactures more money to make cars with E 85 friendly.


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

I am switching everything to E85 and the closest pump to me is 22 miles away. However, I do make ethanol for my hotrods right here, so it isnt like its a huge deal to go get fuel for me. It is correct there is no need for new tanks, lines, or whatever. The accelerator pump diaphragm problems I had were with old kits, the newer ones arent a problem. The ones Cliff sells are completely compatible I have a Qjet I am converting for a member on here. I will take pics of it and show what I do to make them run on E85. Carbs need to be opened up in certain areas, its more than a jetting issue, particularly on the idle circuits for a Qjet. As far as I know I am the only guy converting Qjets to ethanol, but you can find plenty of people doing Holley carbs and EFI. I have a couple Edelbrock carbs sitting here, a 650 and an 800 so I have been toying with the idea of converting them too.

Well considering that there are almost 3000 E85 pumps in the US now, and just two years ago there were only 1000, I would say it isnt going away any time soon. Go to this site and search for your town and it will show you the E85 pumps in your area, and often how much it costs. E85 Map

The EPA isnt on the bandwagon, they are rather archaic about it and some of the rules they have dont make sense. It costs less than $150 to make every new car flex fuel capable mechanically, so the cost to the OEM is minimal. Its not like they need stainless everything, or a high pressure tank like you would for CNG or hydrogen. They could do it, but they wont due to whatever reason. Ford is working towards it faster than the rest are, maybe its because Henry was all about ethanol, and because they realize the fuel is made here and that puts money into our economy so people can buy Fords.

My 70 GTO has been running E85 since 2007 when I converted my first Qjet. Prior to that it had 10% ethanol in it as often as I could find it, which in Nebraska was everywhere, and in Charleston SC, only sometimes. It has a 455 with 5C heads that make about 8.8:1 compression, so it doesnt need the octane, but it does run on it just fine. Actually it makes more power and broke the 2004R I had in it. Every car of mine I have run ethanol in has made more power, run smoother, and drove better.

If you have an engine that likes to ping or diesel when you shut it off, or it needs race gas to survive, it makes plenty of sense to run E85. If you want to be able to drive your GTO or other old car and gas is $4 a gallon while E85 is still under $3, then it makes sense too.

With low compression engines you will have a drop in mileage, how much you pick up with higher compression I dont know quite yet. I am going to find out this year though because there is a 455 block on the stand getting a Butler 4.25" crank kit and some milled 48 heads, pretty much the same as the 455 in my 70 but with more compression. 13:1 vs 8.8:1. I also have a set of 670 heads to see how it runs with 11.3:1 and the differences in mileage.

The idea is to put both engines in the same car and do some mileage testing, E85 and gas on the low compression one, and E85 and my homebrew on the high compression engine. The car of choice for this test is a 79 Trans Am that has a 403 in it right now. It has 2.41 gears, no AC, and only power brakes and steering for options. Its perfect for what I want to do.

When I do the carbs, and as I build this engine I will take pics of everything, and provide you guys with all the info so if you want to do it yourself, you can. I do this because I want people like you and me to be able to enjoy our GTO, Trans Am, Catalina, or whatever. The 60s era engines had the compression that requires either dished pistons or different heads to run todays gas, if you want to run a flat top piston and enjoy the power and sound of a 389, 400, 455 or 421 with the heads that came on it, then E85 is a way to do that without going broke buying race gas. If you just want to drive your GTO and you already have low compression it will still run on E85 with some carb changes. There is no requirement to have high compression, it will still burn at 7:1 SCR.


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

The alky swilling 70.. The red 4th gen Formula behind the GTO has also been run on E85 and mixes with 87 octane gas. It requires 91 so the E85 boosting octane lets me run even cheaper gas in it. It doesnt have enough injector to run straight E85 but will run 45% ethanol without throwing a lean bank code. It makes LOTS more power on E85 than it does on premium...










And the test mule 79 TA.


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## bobby326 (Dec 13, 2009)

thanx foe the info


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Thumpin455 said:


> ...... I am going to find out this year though because there is a 455 block on the stand getting a Butler 4.25" crank kit and some milled 48 heads, pretty much the same as the 455 in my 70 but with more compression. 13:1 vs 8.8:1. I also have a set of 670 heads to see how it runs with 11.3:1 and the differences in mileage.
> 
> The idea is to put both engines in the same car and do some mileage testing, E85 and gas on the low compression one, and E85 and my homebrew on the high compression engine.....


I'm VERY interested in your results and also in learning more. I don't really like what I had to do to my 461 to be able to run those 722 heads on 93, so if I could run some "real" compression that'd be terrific.

I'm also interested in your "home brew" setup.

Bear


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

I wont build another low compression engine, not even for a lawnmower. I had computer problems today so I didnt get to the shop, but hopefully tomorrow things will work out better. What more do you want to know?

As for the home brewing, it would be best if you didnt live in town, or have neighbors close like in a suburb. You could but sometimes things you work with wont smell so good. There is a learning curve and some equipment to build, buy, or find, and then you need to know what you are going to use to make fuel, and what you will do with the left over stuff. For instance, if you use corn, you only use 1/3 of the kernel. The rest is left for feeding livestock or other uses, but you have to do something with it because it will rot if it just sits there. There are some ethanol plants making biodiesel from the corn that is used for ethanol, tell me that isnt cool. Two fuels out of the same thing. 

I use what is left after fermentation/distillation to make methane, and this summer I plan to feed it to earthworms. Earthworms make castings that happen to be great for growing food or flowers or whatever, so I could sell it to a nursery or use it in my greenhouse. It depends on what is available and what is needed in your area, or what you can use. Making methane is pretty straight forward, and you can use it to boil water or run a generator. Livestock doesnt have to be cows, you could be a microbe rancher too, plus grow your own veggies to cut down on food costs. You can grow more food if you use the byproducts of producing ethanol and methane (including the CO2 from fermentation and burning both of them) since it all fits together.

Yeah its more work than filling up at the gas station or going to the grocer, but how many hours do you work to pay for those things? How much more does the convenience cost you? Also if you have the room you could produce fuel and food for your neighbors, possibly make some extra cash on the weekends.


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