# GM About To Drop Off The Edge



## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

Was at the supermarket this afternoon and spied a copy of the May 9th Business Week. The cover story was the future of GM. The cover art was a car headed down the road...but whoa...a chasm had opened up and the car was perched on the edge about to topple over into the void. 

Guess which GM car Business Week had chosen to represent the fall into the void? Yup, none other than our Goat!

The article went on to speculate about the short and long term prospects of GM and their strategy to deal with issues they face. It also speculated (half dozen different theories) on why Kirk Kerkorian at age 87 is investing heavily in GM shares.

Well, business theories aside, I think they could have chosen many other poster children to represent GM's product and strategy mistakes. But, like it or not, the lackluster sales of the 2004 GTO have made this car an emblem of failure the likes of the Edsel for GM. The market has a perception in their mind and it will be nearly impossible to change it. I'd say kiss the GTO goodbye after 2006. GM will want to run and hide from this fiasco. What a shame. The car is great. Oh well, we all own a little piece of automotive history.


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

I've read posts elsewhere that sales of the GTO are coming around. In fact, information published by GM's investor relations department shows GTO sales up 80% so far this year.

GM's got a number of problems:

1. Failure to develop a compelling product range. There are one or two hits here and there -- but for the most part, the product simply isn't hitting the mark (G6, LaCrosse, first year GTO, etc.).

2. Sales of their most profitable products, large pickups and SUVs, have fallen as fast as the price of gas has gone up.

3. Management that just seems out of touch with the marketplace.

4. Boatloads of debt.

5. Union contracts that are expensive to maintain.

6. Legacy medical benefits to retirees.

Medical costs add something like $1500 to every GM car. The Japanese and European makers are something like $500 -- because their medical plans are government run. Japan is something like $250. And in China, the next country to target our auto industries -- it's less than $50. After all, in China, they don't care when someone croaks while screwing together ****boxes for export -- they just get someone else to do the job for peanuts.

Know where the most cars are built in the world? Michigan. Not anymore. It's Ontario, Canada -- because of their government backed medical. Out of control medical costs are killing Ford and GM now -- GE in the future. It's only a matter of time.


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## TexasAggie (Mar 2, 2005)

b_a_betterperson said:


> Out of control medical costs are killing Ford and GM now -- GE in the future. It's only a matter of time.


Trust me..the LAST thing we need is government backed health care. How do we pay for that?? Higher taxes?? No thanks. Anytime you take something from the private sector and put it into the hands of our moronic goverment, all they'll do is triple the problem. Big goverment of any kind is NOT the answer. They're complete buffoons. If they can't even close our borders to protect us, do you really think they can run healthcare?? Product quality along with fresh, innovative designs are what's going to turn GM around....not the goverment. 


:willy:


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## Toebee (Nov 11, 2004)

MoreMoonShine said:


> Trust me..the LAST thing we need is government backed health care. How do we pay for that?? Higher taxes?? No thanks. Anytime you take something from the private sector and put it into the hands of our moronic goverment, all they'll do is triple the problem. Big goverment of any kind is NOT the answer. They're complete buffoons. If they can't even close our borders to protect us, do you really think they can run healthcare?? Product quality along with fresh, innovative designs are what's going to turn GM around....not the goverment.
> :willy:


 :agree 

Giving Heathcare to the gov'ment to manage will be disastrous. We would loose the benefit of "cutting edge" medicine and "preventative care". I do think we should have some government oversight. Prescription Drugs, for instance, is getting way out of hand. 

GM should spend more to lobby for healthcare reform on behalf of all of us on. (this doesn't mean have the GOV manage it, but merely oversee). This would help to reduce medical cost if we can get control of "Greedy Business".

I'm sure there are lots of ideas all of you think would be a start in the right direction. The fact is, GM is a business, maybe a poorly run business right now, but they are out to make a buck or two. If that means cutting some of the line, then it's unfortunate for us.

I'm just glad I was able to get my GTO when I did.


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## patrun64 (Apr 23, 2005)

*20 and out, UAW did their job.*

Being an Indiana boy, I've known many folks that worked for GM (FisherBody, Chevy etc.) and retired with benefits after 20, 25 or 30 years. God bless them for not wanting to work in a factory forever, but GM can't possibly pay for the health ins. for another 20 or 30 years. These people are often still fairly young when they retire. 

After 40 years my dad retired from Ball Corp (a $2 billion a year company) and my mom from 3M (another huge company) and neither pay more than a small supplement on health insurance. 

GM has an uphill battle here, the UAW did their workers a service by protecting them in the long run, but it could actually kill GM. Cash rich or not, how do you pay $1000 (or whatever the number is) a month for someone's health insurance for 25 years of retirement? 

This article is worth reading.


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

MoreMoonShine said:


> Trust me..the LAST thing we need is government backed health care. How do we pay for that?? Higher taxes?? No thanks. Anytime you take something from the private sector and put it into the hands of our moronic goverment, all they'll do is triple the problem. Big goverment of any kind is NOT the answer. They're complete buffoons. If they can't even close our borders to protect us, do you really think they can run healthcare?? Product quality along with fresh, innovative designs are what's going to turn GM around....not the goverment.


Fair enough, then what do you call Medicare and Medicaid? And that prescription drug plan passed last year? A plan that is going to be more expensive to administer than SOCIAL SECURITY in as little as 15 years? Talk about a gift for the big pharmaceutical companies.

I am not for big government, either -- but the current system is completely out of control. We either figure out a way to rein in these costs -- or go to a Canadian style "single source payment" system where caps are put into place.

Bottom line? You might not think your tax dollars are going toward big medical bills -- but they already are. And, unlike other countries, we've got gigantic amounts of private sector dollars going toward it, too. So we've got the worst of both worlds. If our system was that good, then why are all those jobs being moved north of the border?


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## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

b_a_betterperson said:


> Fair enough, then what do you call Medicare and Medicaid? And that prescription drug plan passed last year? A plan that is going to be more expensive to administer than SOCIAL SECURITY in as little as 15 years? Talk about a gift for the big pharmaceutical companies.
> 
> I am not for big government, either -- but the current system is completely out of control. We either figure out a way to rein in these costs -- or go to a Canadian style "single source payment" system where caps are put into place.
> 
> Bottom line? You might not think your tax dollars are going toward big medical bills -- but they already are. And, unlike other countries, we've got gigantic amounts of private sector dollars going toward it, too. So we've got the worst of both worlds. If our system was that good, then why are all those jobs being moved north of the border?


 :agree


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## TexasAggie (Mar 2, 2005)

b_a_betterperson said:


> And, unlike other countries, we've got gigantic amounts of private sector dollars going toward it, too. So we've got the worst of both worlds. If our system was that good, then why are all those jobs being moved north of the border?


Good points, but I think the answer, in part, is to allow the competion of other countries (Canadian drugs etc) to compete within our own system. Let the market sort it out to deflate the over bloated FDA. Thus, competion (capitalism) increases along with research, thereby reducing costs naturally....all without the goverment. Funny how our congressmen have their own private system of healthcare and seperate variation of social security, yet when we want something similar, it's tagged as "risky". Time for another Boston Tea Party.
:cheers


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

Also funny how you can import anything you want into this country -- except pharmaceuticals from Canada (which were made in the USA) because they might be unsafe.

Campaign Contributions = Bribes. All levels of government are bought.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

b_a_betterperson said:


> Fair enough, then what do you call Medicare and Medicaid? And that prescription drug plan passed last year? A plan that is going to be more expensive to administer than SOCIAL SECURITY in as little as 15 years? Talk about a gift for the big pharmaceutical companies.
> 
> I am not for big government, either -- but the current system is completely out of control. We either figure out a way to rein in these costs -- or go to a Canadian style "single source payment" system where caps are put into place.
> 
> Bottom line? You might not think your tax dollars are going toward big medical bills -- but they already are. And, unlike other countries, we've got gigantic amounts of private sector dollars going toward it, too. So we've got the worst of both worlds. If our system was that good, then why are all those jobs being moved north of the border?


The Canadians would never allow us to go to a healthcare system like theirs, Where would they go for healthcare?LOL!!

In a seriousness, if you look at the things that are all screwed up in the health care industry it goes back to two things: Government involvement in the private sector and the lack of tort reform. Look at how much a doctor pays for malpractice insurance, if you limited the awards that juries dish out to real costs plus 25% for pain it would fix alot. We should also go to loser pays legal system, and cap the amount of fees and % a lawyer can take from the settlement to 20%. That would fix alot that is wrong with our healthcare industry among other things.


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## GTO TOO (Sep 10, 2004)

I try to stay out of these kinds of arguement. BUT!!!! Why do you think those OTHER countries can have cheap health care for less money and the same DRUGS. It's because we ( the Good Ole USA ) bear the brunt of research and development costs for the rest of the world. I lived and worked in Europe. The health care was payed by the government. The Goverment told Doctors not only what they could charge but tried to tell them HOW much total costs for the year ( a doctors total perscription costs , or book of buisness)would be for SICK FOLKs. I purchased the same drugs in Europe, By the same drug company as those I purchase HERE. Yet the cost in the USA ( At the time I was in Europe was $112 dollars, over there I payed the equivence of $30 dollars US, and the government gave me back $ 28. Over there you pay the doctor and pay for the drugs, submit the bill and get rembursed for most of your costs. ) Unless we as Americans wise up to how the game is played GOBALLY ( there's that word again ) we are going to continue to pay and play on an uneven playing field. Drug companies make money because the drugs sold in Canada and Europe as well as most of the rest of the world, had the development costs PAYED by that same "PRIVATE Health Care " we are so fond of....There is no easy answer but when Canadiens resent our few folks crossing the border to buy "THEIR ( Canadien )" Drugs, I would like to ask who the Hell DO they think subsidizes THEIR system. I have friends and family that work in the drug industry, and that is how the sytem really works....A little off topic, but folks should understand where the money comes from to pay for other countries CHEAP Health care. ( Many of the Doctors I met in Europe were trained RIGHT HERE )


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## Braman'sGTO (Mar 14, 2005)

:agree very well said


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

GTO TOO said:


> I try to stay out of these kinds of arguement. BUT!!!! Why do you think those OTHER countries can have cheap health care for less money and the same DRUGS. It's because we ( the Good Ole USA ) bear the brunt of research and development costs for the rest of the world. I lived and worked in Europe. The health care was payed by the government. The Goverment told Doctors not only what they could charge but tried to tell them HOW much total costs for the year ( a doctors total perscription costs , or book of buisness)would be for SICK FOLKs. I purchased the same drugs in Europe, By the same drug company as those I purchase HERE. Yet the cost in the USA ( At the time I was in Europe was $112 dollars, over there I payed the equivence of $30 dollars US, and the government gave me back $ 28. Over there you pay the doctor and pay for the drugs, submit the bill and get rembursed for most of your costs. ) Unless we as Americans wise up to how the game is played GOBALLY ( there's that word again ) we are going to continue to pay and play on an uneven playing field. Drug companies make money because the drugs sold in Canada and Europe as well as most of the rest of the world, had the development costs PAYED by that same "PRIVATE Health Care " we are so fond of....There is no easy answer but when Canadiens resent our few folks crossing the border to buy "THEIR ( Canadien )" Drugs, I would like to ask who the Hell DO they think subsidizes THEIR system. I have friends and family that work in the drug industry, and that is how the sytem really works....A little off topic, but folks should understand where the money comes from to pay for other countries CHEAP Health care. ( Many of the Doctors I met in Europe were trained RIGHT HERE )


So what's your complaint? Instead of blaming countries outside the United States -- start blaming the United States for allowing itself to get screwed. The pharma companies' R&D argument is the equivalent of oil companies charging people in Saudi Arabia $112 a barrel for oil -- while charging us $30 -- because they have the expense of pumping the stuff out of the ground. Won't happen there with oil. Why's it happening here with pharmaceuticals? It's total B.S.

The only thing countries like Germany do is concentrate their country's buying power within an office in the government. The pharma companies come in and work a deal with them -- no differently than what group buyers do here on this forum. And the pharma companies know damn well that if they don't come in with a fantastic number -- the buyers will say no thanks.

The United States had the perfect opportunity to do the same when the idea of a prescription drug program came up. But instead of condensing the buying in one place and doing the job right -- it's scattered all over the place -- because the big pharma companies had campaign contributions (bribes) and lobbyists crawling all over the place to turn a good piece of legislation into a multi-billion white elephant that isn't doing anything for anybody.


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## TexasAggie (Mar 2, 2005)

b_a_betterperson said:


> The United States had the perfect opportunity to do the same when the idea of a prescription drug program came up.


Please tell me you 're not referring to "Hillary Care"?? There are WAY too many entitlements in this country already. The main reason drugs/healthcare are so-called "free" in other countries is their citizens are taxed to death. If the goverment takes control over the private sector (even more so than now) what's the incentive to invent a cure for anything?? To the point of "GTO TOO", too much gov't kills the recipe for success. While I agree costs are too high, a huge reason is due, in part, to the frivilous lawsuits. Worse than that, is the HUGE vacuum you hear when you don't even have to be a legal citizen to get "free" healthcare and schooling. Sneak across the border from Mexico into McAllen TX and go into any area hospital. Mothers-to-be are able to give birth for no charge along with anyone that has an ailment. Under current law, once they give birth here, boom...they're a citizen. They have to be treated for any illness for free. If not, they'll be sued by the ACLU and the hospital closes. They break the law by crossing our borders illegally but get treated for any illness before (if at all) being sent back. But you and I pay...err ahh...are forced to pay exhorbant taxes so that these entitlements continue to feed off our backs. If we don't pay our taxes, here comes the IRS to seize our assets. Neat huh??

That's it. I'm running for office. In one term, I'll piss 'em all off, but I'll at least raise enough awareness that these other clowns are too afraid to touch....and then speed off in my '06 GTO.


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

When this prescription drug bill came up -- it originally was a single buyer program. The single buyer program would have negotiated rates on pharmaceuticals, then provide for their distribution. People would have paid on a prorated basis based on their ability to pay. Yes, there would have been government cost involved.

However, after all the bribes were paid and the hookers went home, Congress approved a bill that diffused the single buyer aspect of the program. THE REST OF THE BILL, HOWEVER, IS THE SAME. So, the government pays way more for drugs -- and still subsidizes the cost to people based on their ability to pay. Who wins? Big pharma. That's it. Hilary Care? No. Bush Care? Yes.

I agree that government entitlement programs stink. Problem is -- this drug thing is a HUGE one. And it's a disaster. Bigger than Social Security in a few years. And while Europeans are taxed to death -- we're spending ourselves to death. The only difference is that the credit card bills aren't due yet. Just wait. 

Meanwhile, there goes another auto plant to Canada, Mexico, Venus, Mars, anywhere but here...


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## TexasAggie (Mar 2, 2005)

b_a_betterperson said:


> Who wins? Big pharma. That's it. Hilary Care? No. Bush Care? Yes.
> 
> ..


You'll be shocked, but I agree with you. I wasn't crazy with the recent law passed either, although it will help my elderly parents. I know Limbaugh blasted the drug program up and down, but it's been so long, I can't give the specifics you did. Now what were we talking about again?? Oh yeah...GM  

:cheers


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## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

Well, I hate politics...... :willy:, but I agree with some of you. :cheers


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## SilverGoat (Oct 30, 2004)

Intersting topic in a car forum. There are so many reasons that healthcare is so expensive. The drug companies certainly profit considerably from all of this. They create needs by influencing studies to show an increased need for medications. They provide MD's with free samples to hook patients on to expensive new meds. They spend billions on advertising (over 4 on direct to consumer marketing alone, probably similar amount to medical personel) on a product that you can't get on your own. Who do you think pays for all of this? Us. Lawsuits settlements can be astronomical and malpractice out of sight, depends on the state, Wisconsin is pretty good right now. One of the largest espenses is the patient. If you run to the ER for every little thing, its expensive! The average patient sees an MD 6 times a year. Last I heard the average cold that a medical assitance patient has gets three trips to the MD. Its self-limited people, wait it out. I spend more insurance money to reassure normal people that everything is normal than I care to disclose. 
Its a very complex problem with no simple ansewer. Government healthcare, no matter which party proposes it will really solve the problem until people's expectations return to normal. If you can't control expenditures, you won't contriol costs and premiums will continue to go through the roof. Eventually the current system will break and I hope someone smarter than me has a solution by then or I'm out of business(hope the Goat's paid for by then). The government would likely ration healthcare if it takes over and that's usually not good for the elderly and disabled. 
I'm sure there are many other aspects to touch on, but long enough rant. Thanks for letting me vent.

David


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

Just so you know, I'm not some kind of goofy "feed the world" fool. I'm just really concerned about the American middle class.

I travel a fair amount -- and what I'm seeing is not good. In North Carolina, 120,000 head of household jobs in the textile and furniture industry are gone for good. Another 50,000 will be gone soon. The area from Richmond County, around Rockingham, over to High Point, is in a huge depression. Folks who were making $20 an hour are now working 2/3 minimum wage jobs with no benefits just to stay alive -- and there's nothing better on the horizon. In the meantime, I toured a furniture plant one MILE long in Shanghai. Raw timber and chemicals in one end -- furniture bound for the US out the other. Brand new -- and the guys in the paint booths don't even wear masks.

There are spots in Ohio, Indiana and Michigan that are plodding along -- but the manufacturing industries which are kind of the bread and butter jobs for the middle class are under siege from China. There is no question that unless those folks really get their act together and change how they do business -- such as going to the high end and offer advanced tooling, rapid turnaround for custom jobs, etc. -- they will be gone in 5-10 years because of global commoditization of everything.

Meanwhile, in Vegas and out here in California -- a bunch of construction jobs, which used to pay $15 to $25 an hour -- are now being done by illegals for $5 an hour tops. I've even see that crap going on in Alabama(!) of all places. The supervisors speak English, the workers don't -- and the care and attention to detail that you associate with a craftsman simply isn't there.

Bottom line? GM is really screwed up right now. I try to buy American and help out whenever the option is there. Yeah, the GTO's screwed together by some blokes -- but the profit came back to Detroit. Yet between the Asians dumping crap in our market, stupid "fair trade" laws that tie American manufacturer's hands behind their backs (strictest air control standards in the world vs. China and India's none) and crazy stuff like the status of the USA's medical plans (really expensive for everyone -- yet people in other countries are now living longer), insurance coverage, and the rape and pillage trail lawyers -- we are deep, deep trouble -- and our government is fiddling while our middle class burns.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

Geez. When I started this thread I was just pointing out that the GTO had once again been unfairly maligned by the press. 

You budding internet economists took a left turn and never looked back.

Perhaps the forum for social and political theory would interest y'all.


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## Rockit_GTO (Apr 28, 2005)

I work for one of the major 5 health insurance carriers in the US. 19 years to be exact. Do you really think the government can run us better? If so, take a look at Social Security, where did all the money go that everyone paid and continues to pay? My Mother works for the IRS, you want to talk about overhead and frivalous spending?

Yes, the Tort reform is going to help reduce costs which was passed this year. Malpractice insurance is one of the major costs to practitioners and hospitals alike. It will be interesting to see how the courts stand behind this one and if they really do reduce costs. 

The pharmacy companies do price gouge, but part of that is to offset some of the high R&D costs associated with the drugs and recover a lot of lost money in the 80's and early 90's. In addition, line the FDA pockets to get their drugs pushed through our system. Are they still taking advantage of their situation? Yes, but that is business. People will pay until they can't pay not more just like we do for gas.

The other problem is consumers. We have so much access to healthcare in this country that we overuse it or abuse it in some cases. You have welfare patients that go to the ER just to get Tylenol because the state or the non-profit hospitals will eat the costs. Who ends up paying for it? The people with insurance through higher charges which in turn leads to higher premiums. I talk to people from other countries and they are amazed at the access to care that we have. 

I grew up in Pittsburgh and many of my friends and relatives were coal workers, truck drivers, or steel workers in the 70s. Most of them would need to be on their death bed before going to a doctor. Our society has changed such that now if you just do not feel right, you might need an anti-depressant to get through the day. So you go to the doctor, you spend the money at the pharmacy, and go back to the doctor for a follow-up just to be sure the medicine is not causing you any problems. I'm not saying that there are not people that need help, but let's be real.

State and Federal governments have significantly increased the costs for doing business. They place so many regulations and reporting requirements on our industry that it takes a boat load of people just to manage it. Again, our government increasing the costs for providing insurance. You want to lower premiums, tell the beurocrats to knock it off especially the state ones.

The healthcare industry is the third largest industry in the US. Do you want to see what happens to the stock market if we go away? Any idea what that would do to inflation? A recent goverment survey said that many money market and mutual fund accounts would collapse because they have some sort of healthcare stock tied to them. Are you ready to watch your 401k or IRA be depleted?

Lastly, I like my job and I hear it from doctor's as well as customers, but the Fed running it is not the answer. Plus, it helps pay for my GTO.


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## TexasAggie (Mar 2, 2005)

Wing_Nut said:


> Geez. When I started this thread I was just pointing out that the GTO had once again been unfairly maligned by the press.
> 
> You budding internet economists took a left turn and never looked back.
> 
> Perhaps the forum for social and political theory would interest y'all.



This is all YOUR fault. And I don't even have a GTO yet!!! See what you've caused??? 

(just joking)


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Rockit_GTO said:


> I work for one of the major 5 health insurance carriers in the US. 19 years to be exact. Do you really think the government can run us better? If so, take a look at Social Security, where did all the money go that everyone paid and continues to pay? My Mother works for the IRS, you want to talk about overhead and frivalous spending?
> 
> Yes, the Tort reform is going to help reduce costs which was passed this year. Malpractice insurance is one of the major costs to practitioners and hospitals alike. It will be interesting to see how the courts stand behind this one and if they really do reduce costs.
> 
> ...


 :agree 

Right on from another Ex-Pittsburgher, Ex-Camaro Z28 driver. GO STEELERS.


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

Rockit, I'm sick of this thread but couldn't pass up responding:

R: I work for one of the major 5 health insurance carriers in the US. 19 years to be exact. Do you really think the government can run us better? If so, take a look at Social Security, where did all the money go that everyone paid and continues to pay? My Mother works for the IRS, you want to talk about overhead and frivalous spending?

B: "Gross oversimplification. Typical scare tactic. I'm not for big government, but things can be done, such as allowing pharmaceuticals to be imported from Canada, to get medical costs under control. And group buying plans with real negotiation power can do a great deal -- those don't need government involvement. In fact, the company doctor is making a comeback -- so the orgy of pharmaceutical companies, big hospital groups and insurance companies -- which all have open season when it comes to raising what they charge -- may finally get cold water thrown on it."

R: Yes, the Tort reform is going to help reduce costs which was passed this year. Malpractice insurance is one of the major costs to practitioners and hospitals alike. It will be interesting to see how the courts stand behind this one and if they really do reduce costs. 

B: "Trial lawyers are the largest source of campaign contributions and lobbyists. Real reform will not happen. Even if malpractice insurance costs go down -- do you seriously expect medical related costs do to anything but continue to outpace the current rate of inflation?"

R: The pharmacy companies do price gouge, but part of that is to offset some of the high R&D costs associated with the drugs and recover a lot of lost money in the 80's and early 90's. In addition, line the FDA pockets to get their drugs pushed through our system. Are they still taking advantage of their situation? Yes, but that is business. People will pay until they can't pay not more just like we do for gas.

B: "You're OK getting gouged? I'm not. We buy more drugs than any nation on Earth. In a free market, economies of scale should apply. That's business. Don't forget the pharmaceutical companies' advertising costs. Gotta pay for those, too. Why should somebody take a 5 cent OTC aspirin for joint pain when they can take Zipx at $25 a tablet?"

R: The other problem is consumers. We have so much access to healthcare in this country that we overuse it or abuse it in some cases. You have welfare patients that go to the ER just to get Tylenol because the state or the non-profit hospitals will eat the costs. Who ends up paying for it? The people with insurance through higher charges which in turn leads to higher premiums. I talk to people from other countries and they are amazed at the access to care that we have. 

B: "Put the people in jail who call 911 for a prescription refill. Refuse to service people who walk into an ER for an aspirin. Get your lobbyists to start asking for that. But you won't -- because you use it as justification to raise premiums for everybody. 

As for cutting back on visits to the doctor, why not offer graduated plans to encourage people to stay away from them? Why not a $15 co-pay for x number of visits -- then increase every time after that? Neat concept. Won't happen because you are making plenty off the programs you offer."

R: I grew up in Pittsburgh and many of my friends and relatives were coal workers, truck drivers, or steel workers in the 70s. Most of them would need to be on their death bed before going to a doctor. Our society has changed such that now if you just do not feel right, you might need an anti-depressant to get through the day. So you go to the doctor, you spend the money at the pharmacy, and go back to the doctor for a follow-up just to be sure the medicine is not causing you any problems. I'm not saying that there are not people that need help, but let's be real.

B: "Pittsburgh is now an economically depressed area. Coal industry. Dead. Steel. Dead. Glass. Dead. Downtown -- dead. Wiped out by foreign competition that have less restrictive environmental policies, zero unions (and I don't think unions are all bad) and more progressive government/business relationships). There are people who have been unemployed there for 25 years. By the way, I was born dahn-tahn at St. Clair Hospital. As for access to care, the next time your kid has to go to the doctor, tell him to suck it up and be a man."

R: State and Federal governments have significantly increased the costs for doing business. They place so many regulations and reporting requirements on our industry that it takes a boat load of people just to manage it. Again, our government increasing the costs for providing insurance. You want to lower premiums, tell the beurocrats to knock it off especially the state ones.

B: "Great. As soon as you lay off all your lobbyists and cut back on your campaign contributions that seek to preserve the status quo. In the meantime, those controls were put there because the public demanded them. Maybe if you guys acted responsibly in the first place, nothing would have happened."

R: The healthcare industry is the third largest industry in the US. Do you want to see what happens to the stock market if we go away? Any idea what that would do to inflation? A recent goverment survey said that many money market and mutual fund accounts would collapse because they have some sort of healthcare stock tied to them. Are you ready to watch your 401k or IRA be depleted?

B: "What kind of goofy threat is this? Are you joking? Let's see that government survey. Besides, a well managed portfolio limits exposure to stocks."

R: Lastly, I like my job and I hear it from doctor's as well as customers, but the Fed running it is not the answer. Plus, it helps pay for my GTO. 

B: "Glad you like your job. Better hope it isn't outsourced because the payments for your GTO will keep coming."


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

B, 
It seems like you agree with R but the answers aren't easy ones so you just want to let someone else fix it somehow.

Most lawmakers are lawyers, and they write laws to benefit lawyers. We need real tort reform and a loser pays system. If a hospital refuses to help someone that comes in for this or that ache they get sued, so it's a lot easier to just give them an aspirin. 
As for increasing copays after a certain number of trips, not a bad idea as long as you are healthy. What about the poor schmuck that is having a bad time with his health? That person is usually having a hard time making ends meet anyhow, so now you want to penalize him ? 
You talk about lobyists, well the answer to that is the fair tax system (go to FairTax.org). It is a sales tax to replace the current income tax. No more income tax laws and no more need for a lobbyist. Remove the taxes that business pays and they instantly are more competitive with foreign goods. We would be able to grow the economy, allowing more employment, better pay and more competitive US goods.
You hit a great topic as far as foreign competition and enviromental policies. The rest of the world is screaming because we will not sign the Kyoto Protocol, while we have the most enviromentally friendly industry in the world. Most large cities in China are so polluted that American tourists, even ones from LA (lol), have a hard time breathing. The air burns the eyes and lungs. What we need to do is impose enviromental regulations on them in the form of import duties. Their factories meet US enviromental regs or their goods are imposed heavy tariffs. That should level the field a little.
Well that's my .02


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

OK guys. You need to let this one go.

First, kill all the lawyers (or send em ta France). If ya stick a cup of hot coffe in yer crotch yer on yer own.
Appoint people like me to the supreme court bench.
Deny medical treatment to smokers and other dumb asses trying to commit suicide at my expense (gangs, alchoholics, druggies).
Remove all barriers to foreign pharmeceuticals.
Release Kevorkian from jail and give him funding.
Create favorable immigration rules for medical professionals from Central America & Africa.
Lower the requirements for admission/graduation at US medical schools. 
Outlaw fast food. McSalads for everyone.
Issue everyone a Honda Hybrid with a 35mph speed governor and front + side airbags.
Corporate Officers and politicians must use goverment run health care for their own families. Everyone else can do what they want.
Put the displaced Arthur Anderson accountants in charge of the hospitals.

Don't like this program? Damn, I put so much thought into it! And I really like those cool black judge robes. Here come da judge!


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## Rockit_GTO (Apr 28, 2005)

To BA:

First, I am not trying to scare anyone. I am just stating facts that not all the problems can easily be fixed by allowing the government to run healthcare. I am not here to lobby for the insurance companies. Heck, there are problems in our industry just like everyone's. I agree with a number of comments that were made negatively to our current situation. Look at how this post started, GM has problems primarily from not listening to it's customers.

Yes, Pittsburgh is now a depressed area as far as coal and steel is concerned. However, they hold some of the largest sectors of pharmacy, specialized steel and robotic companies in the US so the area has advanced beyond it's old days just like every other US city due to foreign trade and pushy unions. Heck, I left at the height of job depression in the mid 90s in Pittsburgh. You couldn't get a job at McDonalds let alone any other job.

One note, there was no reason to attack me or my job personally. I did not express any flagrancy to any member on this board or attack anyone. I simply stated the other side of the story. Your comments about my job and my finances was completely uncalled for. I would never hope or threaten that someone would lose their job and not be able to afford their car. Not that I care what you said, because my job is pretty secure which is hard to say in this day and age.

WingNut- You have my vote.  

Either Kill'em all or let them kill themselves. In the end, God or whatever higher being you believe in will sort them all out. If nothing else call in "Da Judge" and let him decide.

Note to everyone- BAs comment about graduated insurance is not unfounded and is forthcoming in the next few years from all the major companies. Just keep in mind, that in most cases it is the company that you work for that actually makes the benefit plans available to you. It is not the insurance companies dictating it.


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## TexasAggie (Mar 2, 2005)

fergyflyer said:


> B,
> You talk about lobyists, well the answer to that is the fair tax system (go to FairTax.org). It is a sales tax to replace the current income tax.



Amen to that one. But again, remove the 30 million illegal aliens and we have a HUGE burden lifted. Anyone catch the news today whereby the Fed just passed a bill that will "reimburse" the states for the healthcare costs for illegal aliens??? Once again.....we pay and pay and pay. In the end, we pay some more. FED UP.
:rofl:


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## Guest (May 12, 2005)

The last thing any working class folks need to do is buy into the myth perpetuated by corporate America that retiree pensions and health care costs are what's driving American companies under and out. 

Let's look at GM, for instance. Does anyone actually believe that GM's financial planners and various other bean counters never realized some 30-odd years ago that they'd eventually have to finance pensions and health plans for all the workers they were stuffing into their factories? Of course they knew this was coming. It's no big recent surprise as they'd now like everyone to believe. What did they expect? Unions to die before now therefore eliminating worker compensation? Workers to work until they died on the shop floors? The government to bail them out? As ridiculous as those options seem it's interesting that all three of those scenarios, with corporate America's political backing, of course, are currently taking place...

The fact of the matter is that it's basic business and sound economic practice to operate a company, regardless of how small or large, with a budget. GM and the rest of America's large corporations have known all along that this was coming and they simply never bothered to plan for it. In other words, they never budgeted for it. This is an example of massive corporate fraud. It can't simply be explained away as oversight or anything like that, as corporate America is know trying to get everyone to believe. As has been discussed, GM knew this was coming a long, long time ago and simply chose to take a gamble and ignore the problem meanwhile doing anything in its political power to try to change the rules of the game at the last minute and get everyone to blame the "overcompensated employees" instead of blaming themselves for making poor investment choices and operating under a flawed budget for 50+ years.

GM has been in this racket with union employees for a half-century now. GM's top brass has known all along they'd have to take care of these workers since day one. None of this was unforeseeable. 

The real reasons for the struggles GM and the rest of corporate America are currently dealing with are poor market predictions, lack of sound budgeting and shoddy investment practices, NOT employees who've given most of their adult lives to the companies asking for the pensions and health care they were promised from the start. Don't buy into the bull****.


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## roadracer (Oct 31, 2004)

So how do you like your GTO?


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