# Super bummed about my new motor- 461 gone bad



## solar68 (Nov 11, 2021)

Well- i was driving the GTO to my shop to get some tuning done on the carb (loading up) when stopped at a light and a noise concerned me, i got to the shop and popped the hood and sure enough what sounds like rod knock was happening. Put the car on a lift and put a stethoscope to the oil pan to hear it. 

Pulled the valve cover just to make sure it wasn’t lash- 

It’s likely rod knock…… I’m super bummed 

I had only 300 miles on the motor and hadn’t even got to bite into it yet

The shop that built it (blue monkey) is being cool, but I have to pay to have it uninstalled and crated back up to send it back. So there goes a few grand….

This motor was run on the dyno and the cam broken in, very curious to see what happened and what the damage is.

I could not be more bummed that it is likely down over the holidays….


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

OMG that sucks ! They won't let you have someone local look into it? Hopefully they don't blame it on you, I had that awful noise surface the first time I really got on it with the old 455 that came in the car and it's such a gut punch but I think it was my tach being off so I probably over revved it, luckily the new motor had a rev limiter or I would have blown up my new 461also before I found the problem. If it turns out to be their fault will they reimburse you for everything? We'll all be thinking good thoughts for you 🤞🙏


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## BLK69JUDGE (Jun 10, 2010)

dammminit 
save the oil and filter ...........


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

That really sucks big time. Th crappy part is having to pull the engine and ship it back which is going to be that part that would tick me off.

It is hard to diagnose what has happened until they pull it apart. Detonation, timing too advanced, can take out rod bearings pretty quick as it hammers the bearings. The other thing that comes to mind is that some of these aftermarket cranks have a nice generous fillet radius, which is good to have, but then the bearings are not chamfered to take account of this. So the bearing gets pushed into that fillet rather than the fillet tucking into the chamfer and you can damage the rod bearing.

Could be other things of course, but hopefully a quick & simple fix, and honestly, if it is their fault in some way, I would be pushing for them to split some of the costs in pulling the engine and shipping it to them. The return to you should be 100% on them. Not trying to stir it up, but what a disappointment.

I might consider what *Baaad65* stated, find a local shop which might save you a few dollars in the long run.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I'm sure it's going to get messy as they could point the finger at you and they probably don't want someone else working on their motor. What's the warranty fine print say? They did dyno it but stuff shows up later, I hope they don't say...well it was fine when it left here. Not trying it make you feel worse just thinking of how this could go. Did you pay with a credit card? Is it to far to take the motor yourself or have the car towed to there place and let them hear it or pull the pan, they probably would have to farm that out though they just build motors. Hopefully their a good company and help you out and if not you can always use the almighty interweb and light them up.


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## solar68 (Nov 11, 2021)

Baaad65 said:


> I'm sure it's going to get messy as they could point the finger at you and they probably don't want someone else working on their motor. What's the warranty fine print say? They did dyno it but stuff shows up later, I hope they don't say...well it was fine when it left here. Not trying it make you feel worse just thinking of how this could go. Did you pay with a credit card? Is it to far to take the motor yourself or have the car towed to there place and let them hear it or pull the pan, they probably would have to farm that out though they just build motors. Hopefully their a good company and help you out and if not you can always use the almighty interweb and light them up.


Timing was conservative, and what they set it at when they dyno’ s it on 91, its got a 12 month warranty- they didn’t give me any fine print and just stated its a 12 month warranty. I paid with my Amex, so I’m covered- but its too far (5 hours) to tow it at this point- 

I wish they would let my local shop that did the install fix it, but i think they are afraid of the costs (Ca vs Az labor) 

I have no reason to believe they wont stand by it, my main worry is if there is damage to the crank or internals that they either try to fix it or it is then a long process to order parts and rebuild it

I paid them a $1000 expedite to built it in 7 weeks so i could get it going before the holidays


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## solar68 (Nov 11, 2021)

PontiacJim said:


> That really sucks big time. Th crappy part is having to pull the engine and ship it back which is going to be that part that would tick me off.
> 
> It is hard to diagnose what has happened until they pull it apart. Detonation, timing too advanced, can take out rod bearings pretty quick as it hammers the bearings. The other thing that comes to mind is that some of these aftermarket cranks have a nice generous fillet radius, which is good to have, but then the bearings are not chamfered to take account of this. So the bearing gets pushed into that fillet rather than the fillet tucking into the chamfer and you can damage the rod bearing.
> 
> ...


Yep, I’m really deflated 

It wasn’t detonating- i was watching it pretty close and I haven’t been biting into to it yet

It has an Engel crank, H beams rods

they are paying for the shipping to return it- but I’m gonna see what happened and then see what i want to ask for, i think they should pay for at least 1/2 the labor to reinstall it.. but i want to see what failed and see what they offer.

I have no reason to believe they aren’t going to be above board here, just really bummed about this..


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

Dang, that sucks. They seem like a stand up operationa and I hope they do the right thing. Worst thing you can ever hear is a knock...damn. Best of luck and let us all know what goes down.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Being all new, I don't think anything got damaged to greatly that can't be fixed easily. Just aggravating in having to put the car out of commission and wait to get it back going again.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I feel bad for you and hopefully everything works out, it's one of those life things that hopefully makes a good story some day but right now you just want to rip a phone book in half. I agree with PJ it's nothing you did and shouldn't be major even the best new parts fail, but if they find the cause and if they're honest about it being a part or their installation which I doubt they'll admit that failed you shouldn't have to pay a dime and should be reimbursed for your costs. I know they don't want to ruin their reputation but they also want to fix this without taking a bath so I would make sure you let them know how upset you are without burning the bridge but showing them you have a can of gas and a zippo ready to go. Good luck and deep breaths, I know it sucks and I've been in these situations but no one is sick or dying...at least not yet. First world problems but it is your world...keep us posted and we'll be thinking of you 👍


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Really sorry to hear about this. I agree with what Baaad65 said about not wanting to burn bridges. Dealing with these situations with some class rather than being "that guy" who goes in screaming tends to work way better in the long run. I have a story that highlights my experiences, sorry in advance that it's a bit long and rambly. 

I had two engines fail within a two year period and both sucked. One was the tired 400 in my LeMans, the other was in my daily which was 6 years old at the time and had just under 85K on the clock. It was out of warranty based on time but not miles. There was no engine noise at all. The MIL light came on and I dropped it at the dealer for a misfire code thinking it was a leaking intake (no time to fix myself, I was travelling a lot for work). Got the call that it was a bad camshaft. When they went to replace it, three of the lobes were round and all of the bearings were worn through so it was cheaper to replace than repair. The tech told me it was the worst one he'd ever seen and couldn't believe that it was running at all, not to mention that it was running pretty good when I dropped it off. The service rep actually thanked me for not yelling at them when they called me in to show me how bad it was. Since I was paying for it, he worked with his manager to try and keep the costs in check. Basically, they charged me the time the job took instead to the book time they typically use to charge GM for warranty claims and saved me over $1000 off the bill. They also gave me a free loaner for duration of the repair which was the better part of a month.

There is always someone on here looking for an engine build shop. Please, keep this post updated and share what the resolution to this is. Most folks will never need the guarantee on a new engine, especially within one year or 12 thousand miles. I'm sorry that you are the guy who has to test those waters but you may help someone else make a shop choice based on your experience. Dealt with correctly on their end and they could grab a couple more customers out of this. A casual mention of being an active member of an enthusiast forum could grease the wheels a bit.

Good luck and breath deep. It is pretty unlikely you'll have this resolved, put back together, and back on the road for the holidays. Don't let this ruin them for you. One thing I've learned about the car hobby is if you expect your ride to let you down, you won't be disappointed.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Lots of excellent ideas and advice have been given.

As a consumer affairs consultant for the government, this is my advice:

First off, understand that the company (blue monkey) who is going to determine why it failed, has a vested interest in it being your fault. So as others have mentioned, I wouldn't be sending it back to them blindly. If they determine it was your fault, then you're out the entire cost of time and materials for repair, as well as R&R and shipping. If it were me, I'd find out which machine shop the local government (Police, Fire, EMS) uses for engine repair. Have your engine pulled and pay them for a written evaluation/ diagnosis and itemization of what it will cost to repair. If that's in your favor, now you can claim that the same company the court-house uses for their engine work, deemed yours to be defective. Then Blue Monkey foots the entire bill, likely in the form of reimbursement, without ever sending the engine anywhere. If it's not in your favor, then you're still in the same boat.
Read your Blue Monkey Warranty closely, then check THIER states Consumer Fraud Act. Often... SO OFTEN!!!!, a business will make claims in their warranty, which they're not legally allowed to make. For example, they may state in their warranty that your repairs are covered, but that you're responsible for R&R ans shipping... when clearly, and according to the CFA, those items would be their responsibility.
If you're going to let Blue Monkey handle any repairs, then as others have mentioned, dont burn the bridge. However Ive always found that there's a very delicate way to let parties know, what they're up against, and most times, they realize on their own that it's in their best interest to do right. In other words... of course, do EVERYTHING in writing, contact BM and say "Thanks for offering to repair my engine for me. In order to make your job easier, I'm paying the local GM dealership to pull the engine and isolate the cause". If they have any fear of fault, they'll likely be much more helpful once they fear that a 3rd party is getting involved.
Either way, "I Would" pull the engine and have it evaluated before sending it off. If not the governments machine shop, a local GM dealership would be the next best thing.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

solar68 said:


> It’s likely rod knock……


Oh man...

Before you do anything drastic, drain the oil through something like a coffee filter so you can check for metal fragments. Also cut the filter apart, and cut the filter element out so that you can stretch it out flat and check for fragments there too. If a bearing has gone away, there should be evidence in one or both of those places. 

Is it an automatic? If so, pull the converter dust cover and see if the knock remains. I got a bad scare with mine once when I heard a very ugly knock on startup, that turned out to be a converter bolt head hitting the edge of the converter cover in the area near the starter.

Bear


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## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

I would be extremely cautious about disassembling this engine yourself or paying someone else to do it without BM's expressed consent.
I'm a master tech and I run a high volume shop. If we offer a warranty on something, then it needs to come back to us.
Too many fights arise when someone takes it elsewhere, they take it apart, and proclaim the person who put it together did so incorrectly. Because now, it's not as it left.
I understand that BM might have a vested interest in blaming you, but they also have a vested interest in running a successful company and doing shady stuff isn't a way to accomplish that.
Communication is key.
Talk with them about your concerns. They may modify their position. They may also tell you they intend to honor exactly to the letter of what they expressed to you at the time of sale.
Remember, this might sound harsh, but you both agreed to that document, working within it is the best way for both parties to come to agreement.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I agree with all this except I can't see BM letting you or someone pull the motor apart that will be their out. Only thing I would do is Bears suggestions of draining the oil and looking into the filter and converter bolts, and video and picture document every thing you do from start to finish, and I would even get permission from BM to look into the oil first but they should be fine with that you can't harm anything they can blame on you doing that. And if you find something in the oil and filter of course send it to them with the motor. These beginning moves are very touchy so you don't want to sabotage yourself, each side is waiting for the other one to blink because you both have a lot at stake.


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## 1969GPSJ (Feb 26, 2020)

That is a real bummer , I agree with all the above suggestions 
CYA is in full effect here, I would see what you need to do to establish a chain of custody for all fluids removed and accreditation of party performing the operations or disassembly if needed, video may be your best friend I know this is a PITA but will payoff if needed to support your position 
best of luck


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## the65gto (Oct 9, 2008)

Brings back memories when my 389 oil pickup tube fell off and destroyed the bearings. After a rebuild and a blueprint assembly about 6 years later cruising @ 45 mph, the crank broke right in front of the rear main. This destroyed the block and most parts of the engine. I still got that "Bummer" feeling some 50 years later.


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## forlaid1 (Dec 16, 2021)

That sucks. Most who have played with this stuff have gotten bit a time or two. I hope they do the right thing and take care of it. Good luck.


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## lust4speed (Jul 5, 2019)

Good advice from Baaad65.

Oil pressure before and after hearing the knock?

Maybe not a rod knock but a valvetrain failure. Flat tappet or roller cam? We see a lot of flat tappet failures mostly due to soft metal and no amount of zinc or phosphorous would have saved them.

About a week ago we had a club member hear what sounded like a loud rod knock coming home from a show but before he could get off the freeway it went away. Just over 2,000 miles on a total engine rebuild by his friend back east with top of the line parts. We tore down the engine and one of the roller lifter pairs had lost a rivet out of the crossbar and lifter turned sideways and quickly was hammered to pieces and the remnant wedged up in the lifter bore after the pushrod made it past the rocker arm.

Neither of the above is the fault of the builder, but if the builder supplied both parts and labor it would be on them to honor the warranty. If you purchased parts and dropped them off at the builder things get muddled.

If I were the builder I would want to be the one diagnosing the engine from the beginning. Additional hands in the inspection is like letting people wander through a crime scene.


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## BLK69JUDGE (Jun 10, 2010)

alot of great info ... above ...
I also have had 3 rebuilt engines fail in short order out of a dozen plus I have had rebuilt at
local shops here in the Seattle area ... 
a 59 235 chev six in my 40 Chevy business coupe... ate the bearings 3rd day driving it to work in '77 .... a piece of clear plastic wrapper in the pick up screen ,,, they went back thru it
put 30,000 miles on it in high school and 2 years after ... ran sweet ...
my Dudder built original 455 70 W-30 had three wrist pins come loose and score my cylinder walls killing the block ,,, and a Pontiac that started knocking after 500 miles,,, junk original harmonic balancer was cracked ... bought an NOS GM one back in the day for 30.00 and drove it for years,,,
so..
1st will it still fire up and run ??? did you put the valve cover back on ?
can you make a video .... 
2nd work with the monkey .... send him the all around top bottom up close far away
tail pipe video ....
3rd I guess the carb rebuild didnt happen .... have you changed the oil during your carb issue
possibly it thinned down the oil and killed its lubrication ....
4th barrow a known good carb ,,, so it runs correctly ,,,
5th change the oil n filter and as stated above ,,,, a clean drain pan and clean jug and cut open the filter keep the oil ... let it settle ... 
6th how is /was the oil pressure as asked above ?
7 auto or stick?
8 are your tail pipes black n sooty ?


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## solar68 (Nov 11, 2021)

Great info everyone,

Blue monkey has been good so far, they paid for the motor to be picked up from the shop (after I paid to have it pulled and recrated)- they should have the motor back by Monday at the latest 

I looked at the oil to make sure there wasn’t gas or large frags of metal in it, nothing in the small samples was present.

The carb never got changed, the oil was the OG oil (motor only had 300 miles on it) as i was gonna change it at 500 miles- oil pressure was 80 at start up and once warm in the 30’s at idle (20/50w)

The car is running a T400 auto, we checked the converter flex plate for play. The knock was from the motor 

I have no reason to think that Blue monkey wont work this out, plus i used my Amex for 100% of the payment, so i should be covered if an issue arises….

Tailpipes aren’t sooty- it smoked for the first 30 secs it ran, but more of a white smoke

The builder just asked us to check the flex plate, and verify a few things, but other than that, we didn’t do anything more than pull it and ship it back as he askedFor that to happen that way.

Motor has a hyd roller cam, the knock came front he bottom end when i used the stethoscope


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

solar68 said:


> Great info everyone,
> 
> Blue monkey has been good so far, they paid for the motor to be picked up from the shop (after I paid to have it pulled and recrated)- they should have the motor back by Monday at the latest
> 
> ...



You don't want to use 20W/50 oil. It is too thick unless Blue Monkey told you to use 20W/50. You should want a 30W, 10W-30, or maybe a 15W-40 oil, but for break-in, I would use something like Brad Penn conventional 30W break-in oil. Do not use a synthetic unless the builder says to use it. You want the oil to reach all the bearings quickly when you fire up the engine. Too thick of an oil will not get to where it needs to be fast enough. It will also put extra strain on the oil pump gears and can cause premature wear of the gears.

Have also read that bearings have to hold back the tendencies of the oil to rotate the bearing shells. The basis of *hydrodynamic lubrication* is the formation of an _oil wedge_. When the journal rotates, it creates an oil taper or wedge between the two surfaces, and the pressure build up with the oil film supports the load. In hydrodynamic lubrication the lube oil film thickness is greater at the inlet than outlet, Pressure at the inlet increases quickly, remains fairly steady having a maximum value a little to the outside of the bearing center line, and then decreases quickly to zero at the outlet. Hydrodynamic lubrication depends on the relative speed between the surfaces, oil viscosity, load, and clearance between the moving or sliding surfaces. It is the oil wedge that wants to rotate the bearing shells. High viscosity oil and high oil pressure can aggravate this condition and "spin a bearing."

But, it will be interesting to see what Blue Monkey finds. Keep us posted.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

That's sounds good, I started with the 20W50 but after researching it and listening to the experts here that oil is too heavy, I switched to Rotella T4 15W40, something you might consider 👍


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Jinx PJ, you're just a faster typer 😀 and of course explaining the how's and why's 👍


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## solar68 (Nov 11, 2021)

Ill look at th thinner oil, that’s the oil (with zinc) that blue monkey recommended- so i ran what i was told to ensure warranty !

I will share the findings!!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I know Butler had 20W50 on my build sheet...don't get it.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

I broke mine in with 10W-30. I went with the oil recommended and supplied by the cam shaft manufacturer. 1st oil change was at 0 miles. Done after the initial cam break in. That was what was recommended. I swapped it out for the same break in oil to put the first miles on it. Recommendations get vague after than. I will either need to run an oil high in zinc or use an additive since I'm running a flat tappet cam shaft. If your running rollers, it really doesn't matter. Synthetic oil should be fine after the initial break in. Even the high end oil companies don't recommend a synthetic break in oil. It's more important after break in that your oil is the right weight for your application has the correct additives than if it's conventional or synthetic. This all being said, I would go with what the builder and/or camshaft manufacturer recommends for your application.

20W-50 on a Butler engine may make sense for break in. If you dig through the piles of documents and instructions they have on their website, you will find they suggest heating up the break in oil before it is put into the engine, right before initial start up. This will thin the oil out and avoid the dry bearing issue that PJ mentioned.

I could go on forever on the engine oil topic. Up until recently I worked R&D for a smaller synthetic base stock manufacturer. I will say that not all synthetic oils are made the same. Many on the market are not that far removed from conventional, and are in fact, not true synthetics at all but just higher refined versions that are synthesized from crude (including some that are marketed as boutique but are not much different other than the color they are died). The higher end oils like Amzoil and Redline are true synthetics. I personally like Mobil 1 in my newer cars. This has all been written before. If you're ever really bored, or are just very interested in lubrication here is the site you should check out: Bob Is The Oil Guy


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## suoinnvet (Dec 20, 2021)

I was upset that my GTO's new engine-461 was out of commission. I was driving down a straight road when suddenly I stopped and heard a knock on the connecting rod. I only had 250 miles on the engine. And the dealership where I bought the car didn't want to help me fix or replace the machine with a new one. So I left a request online at www.autoleap.com, asking the Autoleap repair shop for help. The experts told me that the knocking and cracking could indicate detonation occurring in the engine cylinder. They tried to adjust the starter, and it seemed to work, but they thought I would have to replace it with a new one. And with such reasonable prices.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

solar68 said:


> Ill look at th thinner oil, that’s the oil (with zinc) that blue monkey recommended- so i ran what i was told to ensure warranty !
> 
> I will share the findings!!


OK, gotta go with what the engine builder told you to use, no problem. The builder knows what the bearing clearances are and wider clearances can work with heavier oil. Not a fan of 20W/50 in an engine, but if it is built for racing, suppose it'll be ok. I would make sure the engine was warmed up well before driving off - letting it idle and no revving of the engine.


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## solar68 (Nov 11, 2021)

PontiacJim said:


> OK, gotta go with what the engine builder told you to use, no problem. The builder knows what the bearing clearances are and wider clearances can work with heavier oil. Not a fan of 20W/50 in an engine, but if it is built for racing, suppose it'll be ok. I would make sure the engine was warmed up well before driving off - letting it idle and no revving of the engine.



I always warmed it until the temp hit 120 or so before slowing backing it out of the garage- then let it warm to 150- then let it idle down my long street. That always seemed to keep things happy


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## Boomstick (Sep 13, 2021)

Must be something going around. I got my 69 back from getting the rear main done and headers put on saturday and it ran great for about 5 miles, then started shifting like it had a shift kit in it and running choppy. i figured it was a vacuum leak so when i got it home i checked the hoses and they were all fine. i checked the carb for a leak and nothing. i checked the line going into the trans and nothing... all the while in the back of my mind in thinking its acting like its out of time. i got my trusty sears roebuck timing light out and it blinked once and that was it... no more blinky... that thing is older than i am!... anyway, so off to HF i go and buy a $30 harbor freight special that works just long enough for me to find the timing mark at about 12 o'clock... i get tools out to loosen the distributor and realize its already loose... turn it by ear, tighten it up and she purrs like a kitten...

well... if that kitten had open headers that is...lol...

next up... 2801 cam and my 1969 #46 heads are going on...


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## solar68 (Nov 11, 2021)

Ok- so blue Monkey got the motor torn down and below is their email to me, they claimed that the knock was the thrust bearing, there was too much pressure placed on it and it forced the crank into the block. The owner of blue monkey called the shop that did the install and asked if the converter ballooned (it didn’t)- they also had him pull the cover before the motor was uninstalled to make sure there wasn’t play between the converter/flex plate or that the clucking (knocking) wasn’t coming from there. He basically told the installing shops owner that the crank hit the block (Engle crank) and needs to get repaired and that the cause was too much pressure from the trans/converter (see email to me from the builder) 

They are placing the burden on the transmission builder and/or the converter builder 

I have not spoken with the motor builder yet, i wanted to get an knowledgeable as possible here as i feel like this is being placed on me..

I called both companies: (remember, i started with a fresh trans and converter that only had 400 miles on it from the old motor) 

Dice converters 

www.diceconverters.com

Jeff Paradise (the owner) had been building converters for many years, he built that converter for a pontiac 400 with 2800 stall. He used to work for B&M and know more than ill ever learn about them. He said there is no way he converter ballooned at that power level, he said if his product is suspect that we can place it on a granite table he has and measure it (he would even cut it open if needed)

I called the transmission builder (Orange County transmission) 

Www.orangecountytransmission.com 

They are one of the highest rated trans shops in the area, they built the trans for street use with good clutches, transgo shift kit etc. I called the owner, and asked if it possible that the line pressure was too high (as the engine builder was eluding too). The owner said the pressure would have been not have been and issue and tree trans was built right 

I can confirm that the trans shifted fine and was a bit soft compared to friends that have stiff shift kits in their cars, the owner of the shop asked that we check the fluid to make sure it wasn’t burnt (that would tell us if the converter overheated)- the fluid was fine and fresh 

Remember I only got 340ish miles before it started knocking, 

I have an independent guy that I spoke with, he said the tolerance on the thrust bearing (in the motor may not have been set up right and lacked lubrication too- he told me to get pics of the bearing and crank (i will request that) 

Both the trans and converter builder are confident in their work, what do you guys think

I don’t wanna take this in the shorts…..


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Sounds like you have no choice but to have your transmission and converter guys check their builds and make sure nothing was amiss (or pay an independent to do it). What makes this tough is everyone involved has financial interest in the problem not being their fault. I honestly don't know what to think or suggest on this one. Having just gone through an engine build and install, you are living what my biggest nightmare was before the first start up.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Man, I sure hope this gets worked out for you. Sorry that you're having to deal with this.

Bear


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## CoveKid19 (Nov 18, 2021)

I'm assuming you meant "Eagle" and not "Engle" crankshaft. I can't speak for their new stuff, but going back a decade or so, Eagle was known for their poor finish on the thrust face. Back then shops were rejecting them at a rate of 50% or better. 300 miles sounds like just enough for a poorly finished crank to wipe-out a thrust bearing and cause what you've experienced. One sure way to tell if it was forced forward by the converter is to pull the trans pump and check the gears(rotor) for scoring. Converter can't wipe the crank without wiping the pump at the same time.

Sounds like the Monkeys didn't check out the crank or bearings too closely when they built the engine.


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## solar68 (Nov 11, 2021)

Jared said:


> Sounds like you have no choice but to have your transmission and converter guys check their builds and make sure nothing was amiss (or pay an independent to do it). What makes this tough is everyone involved has financial interest in the problem not being their fault. I honestly don't know what to think or suggest on this one. Having just gone through an engine build and install, you are living what my biggest nightmare was before the first start up.



The trans guy offered to come over and put a pressure gauge on it when its hooked back up, and we have to triple check the clearance of the converter/flex plate (it should be 1/8-3/16th i was told. 

Beyond that- I’m at a loss


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## solar68 (Nov 11, 2021)

CoveKid19 said:


> I'm assuming you meant "Eagle" and not "Engle" crankshaft. I can't speak for their new stuff, but going back a decade or so, Eagle was known for their poor finish on the thrust face. Back then shops were rejecting them at a rate of 50% or better. 300 miles sounds like just enough for a poorly finished crank to wipe-out a thrust bearing and cause what you've experienced. One sure way to tell if it was forced forward by the converter is to pull the trans pump and check the gears(rotor) for scoring. Converter can't wipe the crank without wiping the pump at the same time.



It’s an Eagle crank, yes! Sorry for the typo


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Nice, the blame game. Well, I found this nice write-up that explains several of the reasons why the failure. Could be transmission converter/too high line pressures, improper clearances, bad engine ground (?), yep, bad engine ground - who knew? Other things like the formentioned rough finish of the thrust surface of the crank, misalignment of the thrust bearing halves, one bearing halve being oversized/thicker than the other, or even a generous crank journal fillet improperly matched to the bearing fillet (not enough) and forcing









Tranny Problems: On the Outside Looking In | MOTOR


Crankshaft thrust bearings provide a fore/aft gap-control for axial movement (or endplay) of the crankshaft. These thrust bearings are located at a specific main bearing location, generally at the center main or rear main, depending on engine design. A thrust bearing is either integrated with a...




www.motor.com





*Thrust Bearing Failure Prevention & Analysis* - Here is the short version below, but you can read the entire article by clicking on the link above.


Naturally, improper assembly—selecting the wrong thrust bearing thickness, contamination during assembly, etc.—can lead directly to thrust bearing failure. In general, though, one or more associated problems are usually to blame, including poor crankshaft surface finish, bearing overloading or bearing surface misalignment. 

*Overloading*

The thrust bearing must be able to absorb forward thrust loads that are delivered by the transmission, torque converter or clutch. Thrust bearing overloading can be caused by any number of problems, including poor crankshaft surface finish (too rough and/or wavy), excessive “riding” of the clutch pedal, improper clutch release bearing adjustment, excessive torque converter pressure or an improperly mounted front crank-driven accessory (a/c compressor, power steering pump, supercharger, etc.).

If a failed thrust bearing is found, don’t automatically blame the engine builder. It’s very possible that the transmission or a transmission-related area is the culprit. In the case of an automatic transmission, if the converter constantly pushes forward, hydraulic force applies constant or frequent forward pressure on the crankshaft, and the front thrust bearing surfaces are going to take a beating.

If the transmission cooler lines have been pinched or crimped, excess pump pressure can cause the converter to act like a hydraulic ram, continuously jamming the crank forward. If the vehicle in question has undergone an engine replacement, make a point to closely examine the transmission cooler lines for any signs of kinking, collapse or other problems. 

Verify that the correct flexplate and flexplate bolts were installed, and that the transmission was installed with proper alignment to the engine block (dowel pins in place). If transmission-to-cooler pressure is too high, and the return line pressure is lower, inspect for restricted cooler and cooler plumbing. 

*Torque Converter Issues*

All too often, performance enthusiasts who encounter thrust bearing failure tend to blame a “ballooning” torque converter. Yes, a converter body can balloon (expand) under excess pressure, which would force the flexplate and crank forward, but this is rarely the case in a street-driven vehicle. Other converter-related issues should be considered first, such as the wrong flexplate bolts being used, the wrong converter for the application, improper converter installation or the transmission pump gears installed backward.

When installing an automatic transmission, pay attention to the basics. Before securing the converter-to-flexplate bolts, *check for converter freeplay fore/aft. *Typically, the converter should be able to move about 1⁄8 to 3⁄16 in., to allow for expansion. If this clearance is too tight, the converter will place unwanted forward pressure on the crankshaft, which can wipe out the thrust bearings in a matter of days or even a few hours of driving.

As CEO Dennis Madden noted in an ATRA report, although all of these problems will cause undue force on the crankshaft thrust surface, they will also cause the same force on the pump gears, since all of these problems will put equal force in both directions from the torque converter. So* any of these conditions should also cause serious pump damage *very quickly—within minutes or hours.

If *line pressure* is unequal and hydraulic force is readily available to push the converter, the simple act of placing the transmission in a forward gear can be enough to jam the crank forward, placing a direct load against the rear thrust bearing. One step for combating restrictions in the cooler circuit is to run larger diameter cooler lines (to increase volume and reduce pressure).

*Always Check Crankshaft Thrust Clearance - *engine builder should have done this, so not going to list the procedure here.

*Poor Engine Grounding (*Never heard of this myself)

This may sound like a fantasy at first, but it’s been noted that some thrust bearing failures have been caused, or at least promoted, by inadequate engine grounding. How can a poor ground result in trashing a thrust bearing? When the starter is engaged, the current flow wants to go somewhere. If the engine isn’t properly grounded, it’s entirely possible for the current to run through the crank, and potentially directly into the thrust bearing’s steel backing. If this occurs often enough, the thrust bearing faces can quickly erode, which then affects the thrust bearing. It’s like the thrust surface on the crankshaft isn’t finished properly.

*How do you check for poor grounding?* Following is an explanation of a test taken from a service bulletin written by ATRA’s Dennis Madden:

It’s easy to check for excessive voltage in the drivetrain: Connect the negative lead of your DVOM to the negative post of the battery, and the positive lead to the transmission. You should see no more than .1 volt on your meter while the starter is cranking.

For an accurate test, the starter must operate for at least 4 seconds. It may be necessary to disable the ignition system so the engine won’t start during the test.

If the voltage is excessive, check or replace the negative battery cable, or add ground straps from the engine to the frame, or from the transmission to the frame.

Some systems may reach .3 volt momentarily without incurring a problem. For added assurance, improve the ground with a larger battery cable or additional ground straps.

Although the greatest current draw usually occurs while the starter is cranking, current in the drivetrain can occur while accessories are operating. That’s why you should perform this voltage drop test with the ignition on and as many accessories operating as possible. Again, the threshold is .1 volt.

One final problem that may occur is current though the drivetrain without measurable voltage. If the grounding problem is in the chassis but the engine and transmission grounds are okay (or vice versa), the vehicle may pass the test. What happens here is the ground circuit can be completed through the driveshaft and suspension.

To test this, measure the voltage drop with the driveshaft removed. Both the drivetrain and frame must pass the .1-volt test. This is where a ground strap from the engine or transmission to the frame does its best work.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Like the others, Im very sorry to hear this. As I mentioned in my earlier response here, the last thing you want to do was to let go of the reigns, and that has now happened. The good news is, your issue will get resolved, the bad news is, it's going to be a circus act and likely cost you money that you shouldnt have to pay. 

This is why you wouldve wanted a GM dealership to make the assessment. The court recognizes them as the "official expert" on GM products, and therefore, your engine and trans builder wouldve been forced to accept their diagnosis as well.

Now it's in God's hands.

Personally, in 35 years, 28 of which were spent resolving consumer complaints in court, I never heard of such a thing. IME, although the blame defendants will come up with some wild explanations, it's usually the simplest answer. So i'd expect to discover that either the crank wasn't finished well or the engine builder made a boo boo


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

When you say let GM tear it down I get this vision of rolling a gto into the dealership and them finding the mechanic over 60 to ask how to get the hood open and then them searching where to plug in their scanner, then trying to find an old Chilton's manual in the bottom of the old guys toolbox, and also trying to figure out the book hours for this job 🤣


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> When you say let GM tear it down I get this vision of rolling a gto into the dealership and them finding the mechanic over 60 to ask how to get the hood open and then them searching where to plug in their scanner, then trying to find an old Chilton's manual in the bottom of the old guys toolbox, and also trying to figure out the book hours for this job 🤣


That's the beauty of using the experts, they don't need to actually know what they're doing, they just need to be recognized as experts. I just described the entire medical and justice system.


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## solar68 (Nov 11, 2021)

armyadarkness said:


> Like the others, Im very sorry to hear this. As I mentioned in my earlier response here, the last thing you want to do was to let go of the reigns, and that has now happened. The good news is, your issue will get resolved, the bad news is, it's going to be a circus act and likely cost you money that you shouldnt have to pay.
> 
> This is why you wouldve wanted a GM dealership to make the assessment. The court recognizes them as the "official expert" on GM products, and therefore, your engine and trans builder wouldve been forced to accept their diagnosis as well.
> 
> ...




Great input 

Ive spent years working on complex mechanical, electrical and software engineering based system (I’m in the semiconductor industry) 

I spent 5 hours yesterday talking to the trans guy, the converter guy and the installer before calling the builder.

To eliminate the “Tiajuana standoff” I put the notes from each person on one email and copied them all to keep everyone above board.

The engine builder called me this morning and said they are going to repair everything, and let me know what cost I have to share (my read is they are gonna keep it minimal). They wanted to ensure me they aren’t blaming anyone (because they notice i used their email as the base for my email) and would make sure this works out. I get the feeling thsi email will keep the blame game to a minimum, i told him that the converter guy and the trans guy are 2.0 mins from the shop and both of them offered to come over and make sure everything in dialed in on the install and put a pressure gauge on the trans to ensure that its not the issue..

Honestly- there may have been an issue with the install, I need to go measure the converter height from the deck on the trans, cant prove anything now as the motor was pulled and shipped. But here will be a lot of eyes on the reinstall 



My email that copied the engine builder, the trans builder, the converter builder and the installer (all on one email) 

Thanks for the follow up, I have Eric from Mac’s copied and Jeff from Dice converters copied (just to put everyone on the same page. Dan at OC transmissions doesn’t have an email address, but has been super helpful on the phone and called a few people to get me additional info as well.


I called both companies: (remember, I started with a fresh trans and converter that only had 400 miles on it from the old motor) 

Dice converters (818) 850-6001 (Jeff paradise is the owner) 

www.diceconverters.com

Jeff Paradise (the owner) had been building converters for many years, he built that converter for a pontiac 400 with 2800 stall. He used to work for B&M and know more than I’ll ever learn about them. He said there is no way he converter ballooned at that power level, he said if his product is suspect that we can place it on a granite table he has, and measure it (he would even cut it open if needed). He said the converter was done right.

I called the transmission builder (Orange County transmission) 

Www.orangecountytransmission.com (Dan) (714 546-9900)

They are one of the highest rated trans shops in the area, they built the trans for street use with good clutches, transgo shift kit etc. I called the owner, and asked if it possible that the line pressure was too high (as the engine builder was eluding too). The owner said the pressure would have been not have been and issue and the trans was built right 

I can confirm that the trans shifted fine and was a bit soft compared to friends that have stiff shift kits in their cars, the owner of the shop asked that we check the fluid to make sure it wasn’t burnt (that would tell us if the converter overheated)- the fluid was fine and fresh 

Remember I only got 340ish miles before it started knocking.

Remember that you had Eric pull the cover and check to see if the flex plate was knocking.

I just wish to place all the details in writing.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Nice work covering all the bases! So do they have the trans and if so can they install it to the motor and run it or is that not possible? And if you installed the flex plate, converter, and trans why isn't anyone blaming you? That would be an easy way out for all of them and it happens all the time. In 2002 I had a contractor who did our house in 1997 pour 53 yrds of colored concrete for my driveway which I paid for the color and did a handshake deal for the pour of 10,000.00. The surface started popping off all over 2 days later, luckily I didn't pay him but two years and 20,000.00 in legal fees later he was blaming me in court ! I guess standing on the sidelines taking pictures made it my fault, and the moran judge like all judges are made me pay 6000.00 of the 10,000.00! So when it comes to big money no one wants to take the blame and they will lie through their teeth to avoid it. If it's any of the other three faults you shouldn't have to pay a dime and be reimbursed for the shipping and maybe some pain and suffering money!


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## solar68 (Nov 11, 2021)

Baaad65 said:


> Nice work covering all the bases! So do they have the trans and if so can they install it to the motor and run it or is that not possible? And if you installed the flex plate, converter, and trans why isn't anyone blaming you? That would be an easy way out for all of them and it happens all the time. In 2002 I had a contractor who did our house in 1997 pour 53 yrds of colored concrete for my driveway which I paid for the color and did a handshake deal for the pour of 10,000.00. The surface started popping off all over 2 days later, luckily I didn't pay him but two years and 20,000.00 in legal fees later he was blaming me in court ! I guess standing on the sidelines taking pictures made it my fault, and the moran judge like all judges are made me pay 6000.00 of the 10,000.00! So when it comes to big money no one wants to take the blame and they will lie through their teeth to avoid it. If it's any of the other three faults you shouldn't have to pay a dime and be reimbursed for the shipping and maybe some pain and suffering money!



The motor is back in AZ where the builder is, the car, trans and converter are in Orange County where the work is being done to install it. So that cant happen unfortunately…

I bought the motor from the builder, the trans from another builder and the the converter from a pro. I had one place install all of that but there are 5 parties involved- and each has somewhat of an opinion. 

Righ now if the motor builder changes my minimal money to make it right, and the installer keeps the cost reasonable and makes sure everything is aligned and right, ill play ball and absorb some costs.

I think the motor builder now can’t point a sure finger at the trans or converter guys- so he will be cool and if there is a little cost (a grand or so) to get us back running, I’m ok with that to keep all parties working together 

I wanted to avoid the tiajuana standoff.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Got it, it just sucks when you the customer hires and pays lots of money to experts because they're supposed to get this right, otherwise you wouldn't have hired them and would have done everything in your garage, and now you have to pay more. If it turns out to be a part that just went bad prematurely ok that happens, and if you didn't do something right on the install or break in then that's on you but it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong, then if it's one of the other parties fault why should you have to pay a dime and I would want my shipping reimbursed, that's what a warranty is for, it's not your fault and not fair. Sorry for ranting but I shouldn't have brought up my driveway but that really hurt us and strained our marriage when I didn't do one thing wrong and I still have thoughts of doing bad things to that contractor because I have to look at my driveway every day.


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## solar68 (Nov 11, 2021)

Baaad65 said:


> Got it, it just sucks when you the customer hires and pays lots of money to experts because they're supposed to get this right, otherwise you wouldn't have hired them and would have done everything in your garage, and now you have to pay more. If it turns out to be a part that just went bad prematurely ok that happens, and if you didn't do something right on the install or break in then that's on you but it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong, then if it's one of the other parties fault why should you have to pay a dime and I would want my shipping reimbursed, that's what a warranty is for, it's not your fault and not fair. Sorry for ranting but I shouldn't have brought up my driveway but that really hurt us and strained our marriage when I didn't do one thing wrong and I still have thoughts of doing bad things to that contractor because I have to look at my driveway every day.



I agree, I paid all the pros to do this right, shit happens, but i’d like it if they would have all made it happen without me having to spend more time tying them together ..

I don’t need that kinda stress- but i do love that car


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## solar68 (Nov 11, 2021)

PontiacJim said:


> Nice, the blame game. Well, I found this nice write-up that explains several of the reasons why the failure. Could be transmission converter/too high line pressures, improper clearances, bad engine ground (?), yep, bad engine ground - who knew? Other things like the formentioned rough finish of the thrust surface of the crank, misalignment of the thrust bearing halves, one bearing halve being oversized/thicker than the other, or even a generous crank journal fillet improperly matched to the bearing fillet (not enough) and forcing
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for this info, it helped a lot- i have narrowed it down in my opinion as to what’s happening- ill watch and report back as we eliminate items…


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

solar68 said:


> I agree, I paid all the pros to do this right, shit happens, but i’d like it if they would have all made it happen without me having to spend more time tying them together ..
> 
> I don’t need that kinda stress- but i do love that car


Like I said, it'll all get worked out. It happens to the rest of us, too


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## lust4speed (Jul 5, 2019)

We have two of our GTO club members that run Dice converters and Jeff builds a really nice converter.


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## solar68 (Nov 11, 2021)

So the motor arrived back at the shop, along with my TKX trans (that was an ordeal with American Powetrain to deal with) 

The cost to me was $3k- they replaced the block, Crank and pistons (bearings too) 

I didn’t put up any fight, I’m not 100% pleased at the added cost, but i cant 100% point at the issue being theirs….so that $14k motor has now cost me $17k 

But the warranty is in tact and i hope to have it running again soon. 

The shop is installing the new TKX (with hydro clutch) , and motor starting this week, I’m sure it will take until mid next week


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## goat671 (Apr 13, 2019)

solar68 said:


> So the motor arrived back at the shop, along with my TKX trans (that was an ordeal with American Powetrain to deal with)
> 
> The cost to me was $3k- they replaced the block, Crank and pistons (bearings too)
> 
> ...


So why did it cost you 3K? So it was a partial warranty?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

solar68 said:


> So the motor arrived back at the shop, along with my TKX trans (that was an ordeal with American Powetrain to deal with)
> 
> The cost to me was $3k- they replaced the block, Crank and pistons (bearings too)
> 
> ...


What gears do you have?


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## Noangelbuddy (Dec 6, 2017)

solar68 said:


> So the motor arrived back at the shop, along with my TKX trans (that was an ordeal with American Powetrain to deal with)
> 
> The cost to me was $3k- they replaced the block, Crank and pistons (bearings too)
> 
> ...


Do you expect the shop to give you break-in instructions? May not be essential, but I would ask to see the bellhousing alignment numbers.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Not really a great advertisement for Blue Monkey considering they had to replace the block and the pistons when their original diagnosis was that the torque converter caused the failure. I could see the crank, but all the major components? I can't see how a torque converter could cause an issue with the block that would result in it being unusable but that may just be me. 

Sorry this happened to you and that the outcome was less than satisfactory. At least they covered some of it, I guess?


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## solar68 (Nov 11, 2021)

goat671 said:


> So why did it cost you 3K? So it was a partial warranty?


They had to replace the block, crank and pistons. Then do the dyno break in 

I’d say it was a partial warranty- higher than i wanted it to be, but lower than the cost of fighting between 3 parties.


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## solar68 (Nov 11, 2021)

armyadarkness said:


> What gears do you have?


About 1k miles ago, I redid the rear with billet axles (only ones they had available), 3.55’s and a Yukon LS

That should a a fun combo with the close ration TKX.


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## solar68 (Nov 11, 2021)

Noangelbuddy said:


> Do you expect the shop to give you break-in instructions? May not be essential, but I would ask to see the bellhousing alignment numbers.


 The break in is said to be the same, 500 miles of moderate driving, I have to break the trans in too


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## solar68 (Nov 11, 2021)

Jared said:


> Not really a great advertisement for Blue Monkey considering they had to replace the block and the pistons when their original diagnosis was that the torque converter caused the failure. I could see the crank, but all the major components? I can't see how a torque converter could cause an issue with the block that would result in it being unusable but that may just be me.
> 
> Sorry this happened to you and that the outcome was less than satisfactory. At least they covered some of it, I guess?


I agree- they said that when the crank shifted, it pushed the pistons just far enough to score them and the block.

Ive never seen a thrust bearing eat up and do this….. i never did see pics of the parts, i just wanted this fixed and back…


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## Sick467 (Oct 29, 2019)

I've got a sob story (and you CAN read that as "S.O.B. story if you wish...lol) with an enigine build where the machinist did not bore the cyliders within the spec of the hypereutectic pistons. Long story short, the engine self destructed within 500 miles, the block was over-bored beyond use on two of the cylinders, and I had to souce another block, replace the pistons and try again. The SOB just bailed and would not return calls and such...it's a good thing that I am not a larger framed man...or I might have had some time to do. This kind of work is a true bummer. I feel for you, but at least they are lessening the blow.


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## solar68 (Nov 11, 2021)

Sick467 said:


> I've got a sob story (and you CAN read that as "S.O.B. story if you wish...lol) with an enigine build where the machinist did not bore the cyliders within the spec of the hypereutectic pistons. Long story short, the engine self destructed within 500 miles, the block was over-bored beyond use on two of the cylinders, and I had to souce another block, replace the pistons and try again. The SOB just bailed and would not return calls and such...it's a good thing that I am not a larger framed man...or I might have had some time to do. This kind of work is a true bummer. I feel for you, but at least they are lessening the blow.


Yep, i went with them over butler for lead time, if i had the foresight, i could have waited for the butler motor…….

Lessons learned, i hope this is the end of the issues…


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

solar68 said:


> Yep, i went with them over butler for lead time, if i had the foresight, i could have waited for the butler motor…….
> 
> Lessons learned, i hope this is the end of the issues…


Lead time is always a consideration. When I reached out to Butler, they were at least a year out on any assembled engine. I needed the block supplied since mine was no good and I could not find a viable core to use for the build locally. I went with Len Williams, ordered a short block, and built up the rest myself. Lead time on the short block was supposed to be about 8 weeks, ended up being close to 6 months. It didn't matter since the heads took even longer. I was willing to wait since I was dealing with two shops that specialize in just Pontiac builds. The end result is it was worth the wait. The downside to going the route I did is if anything went wrong in start up, or I have a very premature failure, it is all on me since I assembled everything except for the short block. I was able to put ~300 miles on it before the weather went south for the winter, but all seemed OK.


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