# 2005 GTO Supercharger - going for it - need advice



## Mike Kortney (Nov 28, 2005)

I have done a fair amount of research on how to increase HP significantly and decided to go with a supercharger.
Here is what I will sign off on Sat unless I hear a better solution from the crowd. Appreciate as much feedback as possible. Love the 2005 GTO and I don't want to screw it up.
- ATI Procharger Tuner Kit
- Unichip Q series Piggy Back Module
- Unichip turbo module
- 42 lb Bosch injectors
- 160 degree thermostat
- Spec Stage 3 Clutch.

I would appreciate feedback especially on the clutch since there are so mancy to choose from. I want drivability but I need something that is going to handle the additional wear and tear. This is rated up to 600 hp at the wheel. Am I better off with the stage 2 (better driveability but rated at 475 rhp). i know everyone is going to ask so the entire package including tuning, dyno etc is around $9,500.

I there anything I'm missing? Bottlenecks that I'm not addressing?
Phase 2 will be some sort of catback or y pipes, suspension??


----------



## Guest (Dec 8, 2005)

tires! you didnt account for tires. And the rearend will need some beefing up. Add another 3k to your price and you will be set.


----------



## Nemisis (Nov 4, 2005)

$9500 for that seems high to me, but I could be wrong. You have to take all things into account, the stock rear will not last forever with that power, and then if you get sticky tires your really gonna shorten its life. I don't see fuel pump in there anywhere either? If it were me and I was gonna boost my gto, I would seriously consider a different set of heads and thicker head gaskets to lower the compression ratio, its not very boost friendly at 10.9:1


----------



## Guest (Dec 8, 2005)

I believe the tuner kit comes with an additional fuel pump.


----------



## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

$9500 is entirely too much, send me a pm of your goal and we'll go from their.


----------



## Guest (Dec 8, 2005)

wait, is that an installed price?


----------



## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

big_mike said:


> wait, is that an installed price?


Still a little on the high side.


----------



## Guest (Dec 8, 2005)

depends on what his shop charges for a clutch upgrade, blower install, and rags. those rags are expensive at some shops! lol


----------



## Mike Kortney (Nov 28, 2005)

*Cost + Tire question*

I don't have my price list in front of me so I'll estimate
Pro-charger is around $4,800
Installation is $1,400

42 lb bosch injectors: $500
Install; can remember lets say around $300

Clutch: $650
Install: $300

Unichip piggy back: $500
Install: $250

Tuning and dyno testing: $500
+ tax
I know I'm missing a couple things + I estimating but this a very rough idea
Adds up quick. Definitely tires are next.
I think I have the stock tires 245 45 17,
What would be the best tire and size for takeoffs but also does ok on streets.
How about BFG Drag Radials>


----------



## Guest (Dec 8, 2005)

drag radials in a 275-40-17 will work wonders on your car!


----------



## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

big_mike said:


> drag radials in a 275-40-17 will work wonders on your car!


And if you use a Nitto drag radial in that size you don't have to roll the fenders.


----------



## SloTymer (Sep 16, 2005)

For my money I would rather have an Eaton (roots type blower).
Better low end power where you need it.


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

this is the post I was talking about. Now that Steve sells Prochargers for the 05, jump on it !!!


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

No matter which supercharger you go with, GET A GOOD DYNO TUNE WITH AN O2 SENSOR!!! Don't touch it, don't drive it, don't even look at it until it's tuned PROPERLY.
I know that sounds rather crazy, and a bit paranoid, but if you plan on having an engine that lasts for any significant amount of time, tuning is of the utmost importance. 
As a side note, I'd go with the Roots blower too, you'll be much happier with your purchase. Low end torque is a ton of fun. We had a HUGE debate about this in another thread, so I won't rehash that, but there are certainly advantages to having a roots/twin-screw over a centrifugal according to some people. 
Good Luck with whatever you decide, and most importantly, have FUN with it!


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

I agree, without a tune your just asking for trouble.


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

I say that from personal experience. If nobody ever listens to anything else I say, please listen to the tuning thing. I cannot express just HOW important that is. Especially with an engine that already has a high compression rate. Without a proper tune, your engine WILL NOT last long.


----------



## Mike Kortney (Nov 28, 2005)

Thanks for all the advice. I appreciate it. Definitely a good tune and excellent tires a must. Looks like I'm going with the 275 40 17 Nitto's. Thanks Big Mike.

The Procharger was recommended to me because it is is a self contained unit, a decent track record and a lot of mid to High HP (plus it's available). My guy said that the 2005 already have a ton of low end Torque. 

I will let everyone know how eveything works out. I'm guessing somewhere between 480 and 500hp at the wheel.


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

your estimate is right, and your welcome on the tires.

You wont be disappointed with the ProCharger. NOT AT ALL !!!

Just dont get greedy and try to up the boost.


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

Most of the roots are also self-contained as well, they don't make you tap the oil pan or anything, they're completely self-oiled and everything.
The cool thing about roots/ts is that you have about 80% of your total boost available at 2200rpm. With a centrifugal, you won't have that kind of boost until MUCH higher RPMs, probably over 5000.
I'm sure you'll be happy with either, you'll gain a ton of power with either one. It all comes down to WHERE you want to gain the power in the RPM range. I, personally, wouldn't use a centrifugal on anything other than a pure race-car because 90% of the time, you're going to be BELOW the effective boost range of the centrifugal. I like the boost to be there whenever I want it. However, others are quite different and they like very little additional boost down low and mid rpm, but a ton of boost at high RPMs, which makes a centrifugal perfect. I just don't like to see someone put a centrifugal on a street car because within weeks of getting it put on, they'll be thinking of a new pulley so that they can lower their RPM where the boost starts, and create more boost up high...that's where they run into a load of problems. If you even THINK you might want additional low-rpm torque/horsepower, I suggest waiting for the roots/twin-screw or reading up a bit more to make sure you're doing the right thing. If you don't care much about low-mid RPM boost, then go for the centrifugal, you'll be happy w/it.
This is a big purchase and it requires a LOT of reading/learning to make sure that you get the proper unit for what YOU want to do with the car. Don't let someone else (including me) make that decision for ya.


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

be glad your not an auto, because then you would be looking at a rebuild, shift kit, new converter, all kinds of extra money involved.


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

Before you purchase the supercharger, you might want to read this. This thread shows you some of the plusses and negatives of each type of supercharger (centrifugal vs roots/ts).
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51149&highlight=supercharger+roots+centrifugal

This guy put a centrifugal on his car, then realized that 90% of the time he was driving the car, he wasn't seeing any additional power. A centrifugal is a GREAT supercharger, and quite efficient when used as it was designed. I don't think it was designed for street use though.


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

it all depends on how your going to use the car.


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

I can almost guarantee you that he will not spend very much time at the 5000+ RPM range...unless he's building an all-out racecar. I think he just wants a streetable car that's wicked fast. 
I'm not bashing the centrifugal blowers, they're truly a wonderful invention. You just won't see much of a gain in day-to-day driving.
As I said in the other thread, it's really a personal choice. I just think people should make a very informed decision, since this is a HUGE chunk of change that they're laying down. I would want something that I could actually FEEL at any RPM, not something that I would have to run at super-high RPMs just to experience. But then I'm a bit of an oddball anyway, so take my advice for what it's worth. 
I just want him to be ABSOLUTELY sure what he's getting and what it's going to be like, so that he won't have to go through what the guy in the other thread went through.


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

ya know, you and I think a LOT alike. Going that extra mile to make sure everyone makes a well thought out decision.

Besides, most centrifugal blowers make boost around 3-4k but are not at full boost til 5-6k. Granted, most of your time is spent below 3k but when you need that extra passing power, your WELL above 3k. so its there when you need it, waiting when you dont.


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

I have had both centrifugal and roots/twin-screw. I can absolutely see why someone would use centrifugal for a racing application. 
I mean sure, if you're passing someone, you want that extra power up top. Imagine having the power you make at 5000 RPM, but at 2500 RPM...you won't have the NEED to take your engine up to 5000+ to pass anyone. You can zoom right around 'em and never go over 4000 RPM (at which time you would have FULL boost from a positive displacement supercharger, as opposed to just getting started with your boost from a centrifugal).
I actually GAINED 2 miles per gallon with my last twin-screw supercharger. The added power down low made it a LOT easier to go up a hill without shifting down, or pass someone in 4th instead of 2nd or 3rd (this was a 4 speed w/overdrive). 
With the centrifugal, you really don't see any boost until 5000 RPM. Your car will run like a naturally aspirated car up until that point. If that's really what you want, nitrous could be a wiser investment financially...depending on how often you use it. If it's an occasional romp to 100mph, you can save a lot of time, effort and money by just adding nitrous. If you're wanting to actually be able to tell a difference throughout 80% of your usable RPM range, you really need to stay away from a centrifugal blower.
You're right mike, we do think a bit alike...except for the fact that you like those stinking, troublesome automatic transmissions! haha.
I just feel that if I can save someone a bit of money, or keep them from having to deal with the same headaches I've dealt with in the past, then I've done something good. After all, these experiences aren't much good if they aren't shared. I'm by no means a guru of any sort, but I've messed enough stuff up, and had to fix it, that usually I have a pretty good idea what I am talking about. Superchargers just happen to be something I'm quite familiar with.


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

hey, whoa, dont be thinking im a guru. lol


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

lol, I didn't say you were. You do seem to have a pretty broad range of knowledge though. I consider myself more of a Jack of all trades, master of none.


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

well, Jack, what say we combine our efforts?

You prefer a manifold mount supercharger due to low range usage
I prefer an external mount supercharger due to mid and high rpm power

WE BOTH agree that a supercharger is a great way to get 50% more power, safely and effectively, with nothing to refill.

I think that if we can come to terms that its the owners decision to decide what they want, we can then advise them accordingly. Otherwise we will waste 20 pages of going back and forth.


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

True, that's the point I've been trying to get across. I don't think anyone should let either of us sway his/her decision. However, I will try to provide them with facts which will hopefully allow them to make the correct decision. 
The problem with the supercharger debate is that people really don't know what they want. They know they want more power...but there are fundamental differences in the types of blowers out there, and a great deal of difference in what they do to your car (and allow your car to do). They need to know more than "I want more power". They also need to answer "where would I like to introduce that power?", "what will I use the car for?", "which type of supercharger would best suit my needs and price range, or would nitrous be better?"...as well as many other questions. I don't want to see someone make a hasty decision based on what's available at this moment, especially when if there's not a roots/ts blower out there for the LS2 already, there should be shortly. After all, they may not be happy with a centrifugal...
then again...
they might!
lol


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

Problem with nitrous is thats its an INSTANT type of addition of hp. Like in baseball, the ball is your motor, buzzing happily down the fairway, and the bat is nitrous. BANG!

Whereas with a blower, of any sort, its more like a vacuum to dirt. It gently sucks in the air then blows it into the motor. The higher the rpm, the more suction you have.

This is also the reason why I tend to advise people to do the heads/cam route. As you can tune it to have low rpm power, high rpm power, and there are no belts to break, no bottles to refill, and you dont need 300 gauges to make sure the system is working properly.

Agreed?


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

Yes sir. I agree. There are more reliable ways of getting big horsepower. However, we live in a day and age when QUICK is often more important than RELIABLE.
I'm not saying that a supercharged engine isn't reliable. A _*properly tuned*_ supercharged engine that is _*well-maintained*_ will be just as reliable as a naturally aspirated engine. It just requires a LOT more monitoring and maintenance w/a supercharged engine.
On this engine, I am going with heads/cam instead of a supercharger...at least for now. When/If I do go with a supercharger, it will be a positive displacement type, because I know for a fact that I spend the vast majority of my time at low RPMs, I love doing those long, smoky burnouts and I like having power on tap at ALL TIMES. So it's a no-brainer for me. For others, it may not be.


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

and with all that, your going to need a bottom end rebuild.


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

Yep, I'm going to go with one of the various stroker kits, I'm not entirely sure which. Probably the 408...people seem to like that one quite a bit. This, like many of the other vehicles I've owned, will be made scary-fast before I'm done with it. I love tinkering to get every ounce of power out of stuff I own. I do it with cars AND computers. I'm all for getting something cheap and making it FAST (which applies a bit more to processors than it does to the goat, since the goat was already fast, but wasn't exactly the cheapest thing I could have gotten...it was the best "bang for the buck" though, which is something else I like).
The poor goat won't be a regular goat once I get done with him. He'll be a FREAK!


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

One more thing for y'all to think about...
If you have a 6-speed transmission with the stock gears, and 245/45-17 tires, here are some interesting facts about shift points and the powerband of various superchargers.
3.46:1 Final Drive Ratio w/245/45-17 tires

If you shift at 6500 rpm from first, you will be going 48.3433mph, when you enter second, your RPMs will drop to 4500 @ 48.xxxx mph.
Shifting out of 2nd into 3rd at 6500, you'll be doing 69.3621mph, when you hit 3rd, you'll be at 4500 rpm again, at 69.xxxx mph.
From 3rd to 4th, again, shifting at 6500, you'd be at 100.405mph. When you go into 4th, you will be at 4500...see the trend here?

You're probably thinking..."uh, yeah, so, what's your point waterhead?". My point is that if you're running a centrifugal supercharger that has little or no boost until 5000 RPM, you're going to completely drop OUT of the boost range when you shift and go back to 4500. With a roots/ts, you are still right within the meat of the engine's powerband when you go back down to 4500. In fact, that'll be one of, if not THE strongest part of your powerband. This is why I recommend roots/ts blowers to people who drive on the street.
Now let's say you are slightly less aggressive and want to shift at 6000 RPM.
(same gears/tires)

At 6000 in 1st, you're going 44.6246, going into second at that speed, your RPM will be around 4000 RPM.
At 6000 in 2nd, you'll be going 64.0266, then drop back down to around 4000 RPMs in 3rd.
The same thing happens in 4th, 5th, and even 6th if you can maintain that kind of speed.


You're WAY out of the engine's powerband if you are shifting at 6000 rpm down to 4000 rpm with the centrifugal. You're still smack in the middle if you have the roots/ts.

For the centrifugal to work as advertised, you need to shift at approximately 7500 RPM (which I wouldn't recommend doing if you like your engine in working order)...
same gear/tires

At 7500 RPMs in first, you'll be going 55.7807mph. When you shift, you drop down to about 5000 RPM at 55.xxxx MPH.
At 7500 in second, you'll be going 80.0332. When you shift, you'll drop down to 5000 again.
Same with 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th.


I actually sat down and figured all this out last week. Every RPM from 1000-7500 (which did just for giggles mainly, since our engines don't go anywhere near that without some SERIOUS modification). I tried posting the entire table here, but for some reason, it just looked BAD, so I put in the pertinent information only.

I'm trying to give you FACTS here, not just my opinion. I want you to make the best decision possible, or at least the most informed decision that you can. Others may interpret my data differently. 

The best thing for you to do would be to hook up with a GTO owner who has a centrifugal and one with a roots/ts. That way you can FEEL the difference (even if they don't let you drive haha). This is a large decision and shouldn't be taken lightly. If I already had my supercharger on, I'd let ya drive mine, but I don't. 

Sorry if I've overloaded your brain with information, that wasn't my intention. I just hate to see someone make the wrong decision about a supercharger and then wish they'd done something else. The forum I linked to above was about a guy who bought a centrifugal blower, then realized he had no low-end torque, so he was going to try to change the pulley to make the boost come in sooner...which is usually BAD NEWS. I'm sure he's kicking himself now for not looking into it more. Personally, I don't care which one you go with, I'll be happy if you go with the one which is right for YOU, not right for me, or big_mike, or anyone else.
If you have any other questions, please feel free to post back here, I'll be monitoring the thread and I'd be happy to answer any questions that you've got.
--Scott


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

What your report didnt include is that if your an auto, and you make boost at 5k, then you can match your converter to the blower and stay in that powerband the entire way down the track. Hence the benefit of having an auto is superior to a manual in a drag racing application. Your motor isnt playing the up-down dance. With a 3600 stall, you will sit at 5-5500 rpm the entire way down the track, making full boost.


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

He's got a 6-speed though, doesn't he? I didn't think I should add any extra data that would confuse people even more.


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

but our discussion, YOU KNOW, is being read by all members. And although this one is a manual, perhaps an auto owner might wonder how it will fare in his ride. After all, we are here to help ALL members, are we not?


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

That leads me to a good question...
Do more people have automatics or manual GTOs?


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

manuals.


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

I guess if I wanted to be extremely thorough, I'd have gone through and figured this out for every possible gear ratio, tire size and of course both types of transmissions (auto/manual). I did also do 18" wheels, so I should get some points for that!! I just didn't post 'em! haha
I really hope he came back and read most of this stuff before he went ahead and signed off on the supercharger purchase. If not, I bet we'll see him back in a month or two asking about a pulley swap because he doesn't see much difference in his car MOST of the time. 

Ok, so you want the full scoop? Here's the full table, with both 17 and 18 inch wheels, INCLUDING REVERSE!!  
http://www.washingtoncountypokertour.com/gears.html


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

and they used to say that -I- was overinformative. lol

Glad your here to provide the info I cant!

-Mike


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

Well, I am the master of useless knowledge. If it's obscure, uncommon, or something you'll probably never need to know, chances are that I know it. hehe
I'm also relatively good with numbers since I have a minor in mathematics.


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

Whodda thunk, I work in accounting. :cheers

are you my long lost brother? lol


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

lol, anything is possible I guess! Maybe we're more like cousins, since you can't stand the manual transmissions or positive displacement superchargers.


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

good point. And its not that I cant stand a manual, cuz my cavy is one, its just that for an all out drag car, its not very sensible for a bracket racer. I drive like a grandma on the street (nowadays) but like the feel of a 4600 stall rippin out the hole at 6500rpm for a 1.5 short time! Over and over and over again! Cant do that in a manual more than once or twice.


----------



## Mike Kortney (Nov 28, 2005)

You guys are awesome! Trully informative all the way around. I had no idea of the potential gaps in power with the procharger. I will do some sole researching and make the call. At least now I have all the right info so I won't be surprised either way.

Certainly glad to joined the forum.


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

Thats what this place is all about.

INFO !!!


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

Cool. I'm glad you looked through the forum before you went through with your purchase, so that you could make the most informed decision. Now I can rest easy, knowing that you had all the facts before you made the purchase. 

You'll get a huge performance increase with any supercharger. Most people who buy one of the "kits" out there really don't know the difference between a centrifugal, roots and twin-screw, so in my opinion, they really don't know what they want. This purchase, like any other multi-thousand-dollar purchase, should be analyzed, thought about and researched in order to get precisely what you want.

Please keep us posted with whatever you decide to do, and the initial impressions after you get it installed. By doing that, you could help someone else who is thinking about doing the same thing to their GTO.


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

yeah, ditto what he said.


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

You always have to get the last word, don't ya mike? haha


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

not all the time, there are some topics where my name isnt last.


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

All three of 'em! :lol: 
I doubt that anyone minds, since your information and advice is always welcome. I'm just giving you a hard time. 

I'm glad my useless knowledge actually helped someone. If you happen to have the gear ratios for the automatic transmission, I'll work up a chart for it too. I couldn't find them before, that's why I didn't do it.


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

YAY! I can provide some info!

4L60E

1 - 3.06
2 - 1.75
3 - 1.00
4 - 0.70

4L65E

1 - 3.06
2 - 1.63
3 - 1.00
4 - 0.70


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

Thanks. I'll get those worked out sometime today.


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

okey dokey.


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

Ok, here's the manual and automatic gear ratio and MPH numbers, both in one convenient place. 

Happy Driving.
(oh yeah, the manual will blow the doors off of an automatic when it comes to top speed...if you can ever REACH those speeds without LIFTING OFF!). mwa ha ha ha!

Automatic: 
http://www.washingtoncountypokertour.com/gears-auto.html

Manual:
http://www.washingtoncountypokertour.com/gears.html


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2005)

baron_iv said:


> (oh yeah, the manual will blow the doors off of an automatic when it comes to top speed...if you can ever REACH those speeds without LIFTING OFF!)


theoretically, yes. But even with 2000hp, you can never get 6th to pull that high. too much resistance.


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

I dunno, I bet with 2000 horsepower, we could push it well over 200 mph, maybe in the 220-230 neighborhood if things didn't start coming loose and/or blowing off. That is a LOT of horsepower.
I do know that I would NOT want to be the one driving this vehicle at such high speeds, because something bad WILL happen. haha
I'd be insanely happy with 800 horsepower though, I don't think I'd ever be able to use 2000 horsepower, even if I had it. Not to mention, there's pretty much no way a 2000 horsepower vehicle could be very streetable. It would be a helluva lot of fun if it WAS streetable, and you pulled up to a Mustang GT (assuming you were able to get anything resembling traction). The poor guy wouldn't know what the hell just hit him. haha


----------



## Guest (Dec 11, 2005)

if they can get an LS1 at 346 cubes to make 1100hp, they can get a 427 to make 2000.


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

Oh, I have no doubt it can be done. I'm just saying that a 2000 horsepower car probably wouldn't be something that you'd want to drive to work every day.


----------



## Guest (Dec 11, 2005)

never know, 10 years ago they didnt think 500hp was very streetable. Now there are at least 6 different cars from the factory with that power or higher!


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

Good Point.
I was thinking more like TODAY a 2000 horsepower car isn't very streetable. It's highly likely that it will be in the future, especially if we see flying/hovering cars. 
I already have a car that flies...it's just limited by gravity. I want a car that flies that is only slightly limited by gravity. hehe


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

Mike (the guy who started the thread)...
Another thing, since roots/twin-screw superchargers are a bit more prone to detonation due to the way they work and create boost, make sure that you get an intercooler with them. Personally, I wouldn't run ANY supercharger/turbocharger without an intercooler, but that's just me. The advantage of an intercooler is to cool down the air charge before it enters your cylinders, which translates into more powerful, and less likely to detonate prematurely, combustion. Cool air is much more dense than warm air. That's why your car typically runs better in winter, or when the outside air is cooler.
One way to offset the detonation is to use a higher octane fuel, or to add a methanol to the mix, which cools the charge down. If you don't get an intercooled system, I recommend in going with one of the methanol/CO2 systems available on the market. The ultimate goal is to get as close to knock/detonation as possible, by running more timing (spark advance), without having the computer sensing knock and retarding the timing again. This is why I say it's VERY important to get a tuner who knows what they're doing with a SUPERCHARGED engine. It adds a whole new level of complexity to a "normal" tune. A few more degrees of timing, in an engine that is NOT detonating, will essentially produce the same power as an additional pound of boost. I can't say that 2 degrees of advance is as good as a pound of boost, because every car/engine is different, but you can see some pretty impressive horsepower gains by advancing timing on a boosted engine. 
As you can see, there's really a LOT to consider when buying a supercharger. The fact that the GTO already has 10.9:1 compression makes detonation an even more likely problem without an intercooler, which makes tuning even MORE important. I know I've said it a hundred times, but *get a great tuner, your engine will thank you* and so will your wallet.


----------



## Mike Kortney (Nov 28, 2005)

Thanks Baron IV! Excellent info. I will keep my Tuner honest and thorough throughout the process with all this additional info.

I would hate to have the"expert" come back to me and say yea you probably needed it but you didn't ask for it.

Thx


----------



## Guest (Dec 12, 2005)

lets do a quick recap to make sure all your bases are covered.

blower
plugs
transmission
rearend
tires
gauges
tuning

This is to make sure all weak points have been addressed. Baron, did I miss anything?


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

Brakes.
When I built my first supercharged car, I was constantly wishing I had upgraded the brakes. The car got up to speed SO quickly that the brakes couldn't even come close to keeping up. However, I can pretty safely say that the GTO's brakes are a LOT better than the ones I had on that first vehicle. It's probably something you want to think about down the road. Same thing with suspension. Chances are that you're going to run into a situation where you need better handling or braking than you would normally, simply because of the sheer amount of power you're adding to the car. You're making a street car that has the same amount of horsepower as a race car. 
I think as long as you use common sense, you'll be good to go. 
Another thing...if the tuner is the one running the dyno, he may or may NOT hear the detonation. If you're outside the car, you will ABSOLUTELY hear it. It sounds like someone shaking a couple of small, metal balls inside of a metal can. Almost like spray paint without the paint inside, only extremely FAST and LOUD. At WOT, it's usually enough to make you want to cover your ears if you're not accustomed to hearing loud noises. It sounds a bit different from inside the car...it kinda sounds like you've got a loose skidplate or some other thin, piece of metal vibrating against the engine (that's what it sounds like to me...others may be able to describe it better). Either way, that is the biggest thing to watch out for. It *WILL* destroy your engine, so listen closely. It will also be more prevalent at wide open throttle (WOT). 
On the plugs, I'd likely go 1 heat range cooler if you can find 'em. Iridium seems to stand up a bit better to the added temps/pressures of a supercharger, but they're certainly not a requirement, and others may argue that you don't really need iridium. 
It never hurts to beef up the transmission/drivetrain when you're jumping up this much in horsepower. If you don't upgrade, chances are that you're going to break something sooner or later. You're running all of these things pretty far beyond what they're built to handle. If it's not on your immediate upgrade list, it should be on your "upgrade soon" list. This includes driveshaft, axle stubs, and shafts. 
Tires are going to be a given, you've probably seen what a naturally aspirated GTO will do to the tires...give a GTO driver another 100-150 horsepower and you've got someone who should start buying stock in Good Year. hehe
Gauges, Gauges, Gauges!! This is a MUST HAVE. I liked to watch the boost gauge, but it's not truly necessary. You'll spend most of your money adding gauges that SHOULD have come standard on the GTO. The important ones are fuel pressure, O2 sensor (which is much LESS important if you trust your tuner), oil pressure, and a boost gauge if you're feeling frisky.
Gasoline. You will most likely need 93 octane 100% of the time. If you drop down to 87 even once, chances are that you could see some serious detonation since you are already running very high compression. Don't allow anyone else to fill your tank unless they know that you can only use 93. If you don't have access to 93, let your tuner know, so he can tune for 92. Make 100% sure you go to the tuner with the proper octane fuel IN THE TANK. This is mostly a common sense thing, but it's better to cover it than not. 
When temperatures change, the intake air temperature will change. The warmer it gets, the more likely you are to have detonation. If you get it tuned in 50 degree weather, then it's 100 degrees outside next week, chances are that you need to have an O2 sensor monitoring your a/f mixture to make sure you've got a proper mix. 
Different tuners tune different ways. I saw one guy who was adamant about having the 12.7 a/f ratio straight across the board, at EVERY RPM and he wouldn't stop tuning until he got it. That's the kind of guy I want tuning my car. I want a PERFECTIONIST. An anal retentive person may not be fun to have as a friend, or a boss, but that's precisely what you want in a tuner. Oddly enough, the best tuner I ever saw was at a mustang shop, however, I'm sure there are a lot of very competent tuners that don't work at a mustang shop too, so I'm not recommending taking your car to a mustang shop or anything. 
Also, the 12.7 air:fuel ratio isn't set in stone. I have never tuned a GTO with a supercharger, so I can't say that you want the tuner to be dead-on at 12.7. I suspect it's somewhere close to that number though.
Whenever I build my supercharged engine, I'm going to aim for the 9:1 compression ratio. The lower compression engine won't run nearly as well whenever there's no boost, but I plan on using a roots/twin-screw anyway. Lower compression will allow me to run a bit more boost/timing without having to worry as much about detonation. Theoretically, a 9:1 CR with 17 pounds of boost (intercooled) will double the horsepower output of the engine. So if I could squeeze 350 horses out of that engine naturally aspirated, I'd be looking at close to 700 with the blower. This probably isn't the route you want to take since you're ready to buy the supercharger now. However, there are a lot of ways to make horsepower, we just choose to go different routes, that doesn't make me more right than you or vice versa.
One other thing...maintenance. You want to be dead-on your 3000 mile oil changes with synthetic oil. You are putting a LOT more stress on your internal engine components...keeping the oil nice and fresh will keep your engine running at its peak, and will keep it in good shape for many years. If the supercharger uses the engine oil, you will need to change it even sooner (personally, I'd go with synthetic, and change every 2000-2500, but you could probably get away with 3000 every now and then). If the supercharger is self-oiled, you'll need to change the supercharger oil about every 50k miles (unless the manual tells you to do it sooner). Most of 'em are somewhere between 50-100k miles. Inspect your belts often...belt slippage can cause you to lose a LOT of boost (if not all of it). Also, make sure all the pulleys are in good order. 
With a bit of maintenance and common sense, a properly tuned supercharged engine can last just as long as a naturally aspirated engine. It can also be a helluva lot more FUN too.


----------



## Guest (Dec 12, 2005)

GTODEALER said:


> $9500 is entirely too much, send me a pm of your goal and we'll go from their.



tell steve 50 cent and you'll take him to the nuddy bar you'll be good after you tell him that.


----------



## Guest (Dec 12, 2005)

baron, you didnt get to talk much as a child did you? lol

I cant believe I forgot brakes!


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

lol, actually, I was a rather quiet child. I won't talk quite as much on other subjects. Ask me about a camshaft and you'd be lucky to get one sentence out of me. haha
I just want to make sure that he knows as much as possible before he goes to get this system, then goes to the tuner and then moves the monster to the street. If my novels keep one person from burning through a piston, or destroying their engine altogether, then it'll have accomplished what I wanted.


----------



## Guest (Dec 12, 2005)

well, if you think you can teach me about camshafts, and I mean the serious in-depth stuff, then we should talk by email. I know -0- about cams. I cant tell you the difference between a 112 and 116 centerline, or what bearing it has on a motor if you install it 2 degrees up or down. *shrug*

[email protected]

It can only hold 60GB of info so if your writing me a book, I should probably delete some messages. lol


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

haha, I could write from now until 2020 and never fill up 60gb with text!! :willy: 

That's why I said you wouldn't get much out of me. I'd be more inclined to ASK questions about cams than answer 'em. I would consider myself "still learning" about camshafts. I'd hate to tell you something that would be WRONG, then you accidentally spread it along. hehe


----------



## Guest (Dec 12, 2005)

oh, got my hopes up for nothing. Now I gotta go on the "internet" to research. *gasp* you know the internet is nothing but porn right?

I underlined that because there is a girl here at work who checks her email, and pays bills online but wont go to the "internet" for that reason.

*shocked face look*


----------



## Guest (Dec 12, 2005)

big_mike said:


> well, if you think you can teach me about camshafts, and I mean the serious in-depth stuff, then we should talk by email. I know -0- about cams. I cant tell you the difference between a 112 and 116 centerline, or what bearing it has on a motor if you install it 2 degrees up or down. *shrug*
> 
> [email protected]
> 
> It can only hold 60GB of info so if your writing me a book, I should probably delete some messages. lol



big-mike don't know sumpin?  thats ok i don't know bought cams either.


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

Well, she's missing out. 

If you want to learn about cams, there are a million websites out there that help you choosing the right cam. In fact, if you do a google search for "finding the right cam", you will come up with many of those FAQs, which will probably address many of the questions you have. The reason I'm reluctant to answer questions about cams is because I know a bit about 'em, but there are still some gaps that I need to fill in when it comes to cam knowledge. I'd rather give *no* information than false information. Nothing that I say should be taken as gospel by anyone. I'm prone to spelling/numeric mistakes, as well as a lapse of memory (I'd forget my head if it wasn't attached). Just consider what I say as more of a base, so that you can do further research and discover answers on your own.


----------



## Guest (Dec 12, 2005)

kinda like me, when my girl was with me (not sure if we will ever get back together), she would get so mad I would forget the smallest things. I was always telling her "my head is at max memory with my knowledge on cars, electronics, and related stuff. There is -0- more room to remember anything else" She needs to be glad I remember her birthday! lol


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

Yeah, I have the same problem. If it's not written down, or tattooed on my body, or ATTACHED to me somehow, I *WILL* forget it. Sometimes when it's written down, I forget where I put the piece of paper. It's bad.
The girlfriend is constantly mad at me for forgetting something or other. All of this useless knowledge I have inside my head tends to squeeeeeeeze out the newly-learned things, or things that my brain deems to be less important (such as what she said she'd be doing 3 weeks from last tuesday, or what she said she wants for christmas, or something I need to pick up at walmart for her, etc). Those just aren't things I'm going to NEED to remember so I don't make some attempt to store them to long-term memory. 
I think we have a problem that is very common among men. It's more of a genetic defect in a woman's eyes. To me, it's more like prioritizing. I think storing the fact that I will need to drive on the wrong (left) side of the road in Australia (even though I'll likely never visit) is MUCH more important than remembering tampons at wal-mart. Who knows...I may be wrong though...
:confused


----------



## Guest (Dec 12, 2005)

Actually, I can remember a VAST number of things instantly but agree that we have NO reason to remember what the hell she said when getting a lecture. Who cares? Just stop yelling so I can go back and work on the car, damn!


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

Here's another pearl of wisdom...
I actually said something very similar to my ex-wife once. She was griping about something...probably me leaving socks on the floor or forgetting to take out the trash...
Anyway, I asked her if she'd mind shutting up until I'm done with my work (I work from home as an animator/video-editor). OMG...WROOOONG thing to say! She went completely ballistic. :willy: 
So, I learned, it's better to let it go in one ear and out the other than say much of anything. You have the right to remain silent, I highly recommend USING that right. An occasional nod, or "uh huh" might be required if your girlfriend is the type who requires feedback. Otherwise, silence is the best option. Make 'em think you're listening and you'll be good to go...until you screw up again.
(/end of lesson)


----------



## Guest (Dec 12, 2005)

animation/video editing? Hmmm

we just got another valuable asset out of you!


----------



## baron_iv (Nov 17, 2005)

I've had many jobs throughout my 30 years.
Started out when I was 15, cutting grass, working in a machine shop and at a grocery store. Typical teenage jobs.
Then when I was 17 I entered the Marine Corps. Before I was 18, I already graduated from Boot Camp, then went back to graduate high school (in my dress blues...which looks a helluva lot better than the damn cap/gown). I graduated a semester early since I had all my credits, but the actual graduation ceremony wasn't until May. My job in the USMC was Security Forces. That entails a bit more than just what your average rent-a-cop does though. 
After the Corps, I was a security guard for a while, then a cop/sheriff's deputy for 3 years. Typical Former Marine Jobs. I also did part-time auto detailing because I didn't make nearly enough $$ as a cop.
I kinda lucked into a video editing job while I was still a police officer, and I'd been doing animation for quite some time. Being a cop was cool and all, I enjoyed it, but the money just SUCKED. I'm easily making 2-2.5x as much at home, and I'm not risking my life every day either. I believe that cops/sheriff's deputies should be paid a LOT more, same with teachers. You can't keep good people in those jobs if you're not willing to pay 'em. 
Anyway, there's my life story...or at least most of my work history. haha


----------



## Guest (Dec 12, 2005)

and to think, all I have done is telecommunications, accounting, mechanic, trademark paralegal, bankruptcy paralegal and even worked at McDonalds for 2 weeks!


----------

