# electric turbo



## Bluegoat05 (Mar 22, 2010)

ok here is a random question that has had me wondering for a while. why hasnt any one made a real electric turbo. i see them all the time on ebay for 20 bucks and you look at em and they are complete crap! but why hasnt anyone made one that actually works? i mean it makes sense no belt to hinder engine power and not a lot of piping comin from the exhaust.. would the motors just be to big?? idk just wanted to know what you guys thought? and if you take my idea and make one i want a part of it ha ha


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

I've seen them on e-bay too, complete crap. Even IF it was able to achieve a boost condition, I can't see it maintaining that boost pressure past the idle position. Electric turbos don't exists because it's not efficient. It takes more power then it yields. Plus the exhaust gas that normally powers a turbo is free, so why not use it instead of an inferior source like electric power?


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

You need one hell of a reliable DC motor to spin a fan or multiple fans fast enough to produce enough CFM to feed an engine. You'd be drawing alot of power too. That will be a big draw on the electrical system. Something like that will not be compact enough also to fit anywere on a car.


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## Gunslinger (Jan 5, 2010)

Bildge vent fans are the electric turbos they sell on ebay...for boats to vent bildge fumes. They do catch fire every once in a while if you install it on a car, especially if you do it incorrectly. Basically yeah they are crap for fools to put on their Hondas. Almost as good as the Turbo sound generator you put in your tailpipe for that real turbo sound....


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

I believe electric turbos are for Priuses only.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

I had the idea to put a big pressure tank, like 3.000 PSI, in the car and valve it to give boost based on RPM. A supercharger uses 40% of your engines power to turn the vane, so if you can just get the boost you can gain 40% over a Supercharger, I'm a genius! Then, I went to Don Gartlits Museum in Ocala and they had a dragster there that had a 100 gallon pressure tank mounted in the middle of it. They thought of it first, lol.. It would work though.
Electric Turbos off ebay are a joke. Especially since Turbos are exhaust driven, it would be an electric supercharger technically.


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## PBF Bioset (Apr 25, 2010)

If anybody's looking for an electric boost this might be interesting...
Regenerative brake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

as mentioned, the formula one produces a boost of 60kW with this system, but I think it's a bit to difficult, to install that in a gto. 
Another idea is, to put an electric motor on the crank by using a v-ripped belt and a viscoclutch in order to minimize the inner resistance of the engine while it runaways. 
(? dictionary says that...I mean while the engine turns to full speed) The signal of the throttle value potentiometer is used as an indicator for the electric field generation.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Isn't that called an alternator??


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

jetstang said:


> I had the idea to put a big pressure tank, like 3.000 PSI, in the car and valve it to give boost based on RPM. A supercharger uses 40% of your engines power to turn the vane, so if you can just get the boost you can gain 40% over a Supercharger, I'm a genius! Then, I went to Don Gartlits Museum in Ocala and they had a dragster there that had a 100 gallon pressure tank mounted in the middle of it. They thought of it first, lol.. It would work though.
> Electric Turbos off ebay are a joke. Especially since Turbos are exhaust driven, it would be an electric supercharger technically.


If you're gonna go that far, spray it with 100% oxygen! Wheeee! :lol:


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

jetstang said:


> I had the idea to put a big pressure tank, like 3.000 PSI, in the car and valve it to give boost based on RPM. A supercharger uses 40% of your engines power to turn the vane, so if you can just get the boost you can gain 40% over a Supercharger, I'm a genius! Then, I went to Don Gartlits Museum in Ocala and they had a dragster there that had a 100 gallon pressure tank mounted in the middle of it. They thought of it first, lol.. It would work though.
> Electric Turbos off ebay are a joke. Especially since Turbos are exhaust driven, it would be an electric supercharger technically.


Nitrous is your friend


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## PBF Bioset (Apr 25, 2010)

Before a wrong impression arises. This idea grew up, while we students were talking about alternative drives. It's not figuered out in detail. 



Rukee said:


> Isn't that called an alternator??


It has the opposite function of an alternator. 
The alternator generates the electric field in order to charge the battery. 
Basicly the working princip is the same but the "turned alternator" generates a moment of torque. 
The Problem of this idea is, that such an three-phase current motor produces its moment of torque at full hight from start on. This causes constructive problems on the stability of the valve timing chains and the frontside bearing of the crankshaft we supposed. That might be the reason because of companies integrate such a system in the drivetrain or on wheelhubs.

In fact the main construtive idea was to use a kind of lock-up torque converter to translate the moment of torque slow rising. ( direct translatet: viscous clutch ...sry I don't know any matching words for this)
For that case, it could possibly be mountet in every car ( for the reason, that enough space is found) and if we could build or buy the right controller and software, it could even replace the alternator itself.

That's the idea so far...maybe one day we'll try to realize this... else we became smater


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

PBF Bioset said:


> Before a wrong impression arises. This idea grew up, while we students were talking about alternative drives. It's not figuered out in detail.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They are running superchargers off the front of the crank with no problems. How much more load on the crank is this unit going to encure?

..and how about this; hydraulic pumps on the wheels, when you apply the brakes the pumps kick in and forces fluid under pressure into a holding tank. When you take off the fluid under pressure is redirected back to the pumps and can then help you take off. :cheers


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## Bluegoat05 (Mar 22, 2010)

ha ha i new it had to be that it was too bulky and complicated. other wise someone would have done it. thanks guys i knew that someone would probably know why


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## PBF Bioset (Apr 25, 2010)

Rukee said:


> They are running superchargers off the front of the crank with no problems. How much more load on the crank is this unit going to encure?


Hhhhm...I calculatet it roughly. By using a 50kW motor with 3000 circle/min it would be 238Nm of torque by using a transmission ratio of 1,5. I took a diameter of 0,1m (3,9 inch) for the e-motor disc and a 0,15 m (5,9 inch) for the crankshaftrotor...
But I'm not really sure, if I should level the the rpm's... and how 
Does it need the torque for the complete engine speed range? Mhh...:willy:
But that must not be true...there are many things that have not be considered... in detail that would take some hours I guess^^



Rukee said:


> ..and how about this; hydraulic pumps on the wheels, when you apply the brakes the pumps kick in and forces fluid under pressure into a holding tank. When you take off the fluid under pressure is redirected back to the pumps and can then help you take off. :cheers


It's getting to hot there for an fluid I think. The heat would cause bubblebuilding (nice word ) and this will damage the pump because the fluid lubricates it. But...Breakfluid..mhh..
You mean something like a fluid driven turbine, doesn't you?
Could work, but a bit to heavy all in all.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

:willy::confused
I work with hydraulics, generators, electric motors, ect. And I'm :confused

You can use hydro as a propulsion setup. Its called hydrostatic pump, and fluid driven turbines. We use them in the military. Anytime you pressurize a fluid your going to create heat. 

*Rukee* this is for you:


> ..and how about this; hydraulic pumps on the wheels, when you apply the brakes the pumps kick in and forces fluid under pressure into a holding tank. When you take off the fluid under pressure is redirected back to the pumps and can then help you take off


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## PBF Bioset (Apr 25, 2010)

GM4life said:


> :willy::confused
> I work with hydraulics, generators, electric motors, ect. *And I'm :confused*


Me too! That's a daily circumstance :rofl:
The :willy: was set because of to many questions and far too little answers^^ ..also a daily circumstance.

I guess I should work on this :cheers


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

PBF Bioset said:


> Me too! That's a daily circumstance :rofl:
> The :willy: was set because of to many questions and far too little answers^^ ..also a daily circumstance.
> 
> I guess I should work on this :cheers


I figured you had some knowage of it. No one can pull that kinda stuff out of their ass.:lol: I'm running on a lack of sleep and my thinking cap is not working. I can tell you that this thread has taken a diffrent path.:lol:
:cheers


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

GM4life said:


> Nitrous is your friend


Well, nitrous you use a smaller bottle and get the same perfomance advantage, but the cost. If you figure 10 PSI of boost will take ?CFM of airflow and you just pump compressed air into the motor it will make boost. Refilling would be "free" as long as you can pump 3000 psi. Or even at 150 PSI if you can hold enough air to sustain boost over the 1/4. Have an A/C compressor under the hood with a clutch to refill the bottle. The only issue is you have to have something to hold the pressure in the motor, air flows through turbos and supercharger even when there not making boost. Maybe have some Reeds in there like a 2 stroke and provide the boost behind the reeds. Direct port injection after the reeds would work, but for a carb, the reeds would shut under boost and fuel wouldn't flow. The reeds would have to be before the mass air meter, so it can compensate fuel delivery for the boost. This would work and not be stupid expensive. Kind of like Nitrous, you just let it dump air for the HP boost that you want, or can make an RPM related regulator, like a progressive nitrous system. You could always throw some nitrous in there to cool the mixture. My buddys run 52 pounds of boost in there Pro Mod, so I don't think you could pump enough air for that much boost, but for a street ride, it could work.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

I think your making it too complicated. Nitrous is oxygen, and the nitrogen acts as a cooling agent. You can use more than one bottle. Besides you still have to tune the car to provide more fuel when adding more air or you will go lean in a hurry. I don't think a A/C compressor will pump that much air and its not designd as a air pump. It will seize up in a hurry without lubrication. Plus burning gas and heat soaking your engine in the staging lane to pump air into a bottle is counter productive. You need another type of compressor to pump that much air and about time its all said and done with proper compressor, hoses, certified tank, soloniods, your well over the price of a cheap nitrous set-up. With a electric compressor you still need to run your engine to keep from running down your batteries unless you bring a generator along with you.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

GM4life said:


> I think your making it too complicated. Nitrous is oxygen, and the nitrogen acts as a cooling agent. You can use more than one bottle. Besides you still have to tune the car to provide more fuel when adding more air or you will go lean in a hurry. I don't think a A/C compressor will pump that much air and its not designd as a air pump. It will seize up in a hurry without lubrication. Plus burning gas and heat soaking your engine in the staging lane to pump air into a bottle is counter productive. You need another type of compressor to pump that much air and about time its all said and done with proper compressor, hoses, certified tank, your well over the price of a cheap nitrous set-up. With a electric compressor you still need to run your engine to keep from running down your batteries unless you bring a generator along with you.


The compressor wouldn't be running when you are racing, just to fill the bottle. AC compressor is just a thought, could put a oiler in line to protect it. Just brainstorming. Guy on another forum just put a wet nitrous kit up for $200 with a half bottle, so may put that on my Vette and forget about this. But, would be a cool setup on a ratrod or for someone with more time than Money, all take off/junkyard parts. There's the easy way and the cool way, this would be cool. Hell, you could just put a scuba tank in your car with a ball valve and dump it when you hit second gear, you pick up a 1/2 second next week there will be more out there with the same setup.
I really want a Hydrogen generator that won't blow up, I've seen too many cars burning on the side of the road latelly, 3 in the last month, honest, but I drive a lot, all seemed like SUVs.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

jetstang said:


> The compressor wouldn't be running when you are racing, just to fill the bottle. AC compressor is just a thought, could put a oiler in line to protect it. Just brainstorming. Guy on another forum just put a wet nitrous kit up for $200 with a half bottle, so may put that on my Vette and forget about this. But, would be a cool setup on a ratrod or for someone with more time than Money, all take off/junkyard parts. There's the easy way and the cool way, this would be cool. Hell, you could just put a scuba tank in your car with a ball valve and dump it when you hit second gear, you pick up a 1/2 second next week there will be more out there with the same setup.
> I really want a Hydrogen generator that won't blow up, I've seen too many cars burning on the side of the road latelly, 3 in the last month, honest, but I drive a lot, all seemed like SUVs.


Didn't say anything about running a compressor while racing. Oil is mixed in the refregerant to keep the internals lubbed.


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## PBF Bioset (Apr 25, 2010)

A problem I would think of is, that an expanding gas (air) cooles down. So if you got it under higher pessuere as it will be used it is possible, that your valve (tankside) freezes. You can have a look at this effect, if you use the air filling maschine at a fuelstation.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

How about an engine that runs on refrigerant? You could eliminate the whole intake system. Direct inject the refrigerant right into the cyl. The expanding gas would push the piston down. Power would be determined by how much is injected. Reclaim the gas after the exhaust manifold, run it through the pump again and start the whole process over.


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## PBF Bioset (Apr 25, 2010)

Rukee said:


> How about an engine that runs on refrigerant? You could eliminate the whole intake system. Direct inject the refrigerant right into the cyl. The expanding gas would push the piston down. Power would be determined by how much is injected. Reclaim the gas after the exhaust manifold, run it through the pump again and start the whole process over.


Same problem. The refligrant, if it is a compressed gas would freeze the injektion valve. In Germany today, autogas (lpg) systems get more and more famous and we often thought about how to upgrade this systems. At the moment the gas left the valve it expends and tooks the heatenergy from its surrounding. It's even the same if the gas is liquid. To solve this problem an evaporator, heatet by the refrigerant of the engine, helps the liquid gas to change its condition from liquid to gaseous. After this the gas has an uncritical pressure for the case that the valve diameter is big enough. Otherwise it would still freeze the injektion valve.



Rukee said:


> Power would be determined by how much is injected. .


This is how diesel engines run. I don't think, that an expanding gas in cylinders causes enough power to make a car run.
To compare this. A gasoline burning engine compresses the air in a rage of 12 to 18 bar (diesel 30 to 55 bar), then the gasoline is injected and finaly ingnited. At this stroke the cylinder developes a pressure of 30 to 60 bar (diesel 60 to 140). The energy that is given to the engine results of this expansion. 
The explosion that causes this needs the energy of an exploding gas like air. Air and gasoline were restrucktured in molecular base. The part of the clean O2 gets minimized and it can't be used again for this stroke in order to give the same energy again.
Also a problem would be, that you got 78% of nitrogen in the air that normally cooles down the cylinder at the moment of ignition. If you would use pure O2 for example, your pistons would melt.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

The expanding gas does not freeze the orifice of an A/C system, I'm sure you could make one for the cylinder head that would not freeze too.
...if it doesn't make enough power maybe some sort of gear system, like the crank turning another crank by gear reduction, what you lack in raw power you make up with more revolutions or strokes of the piston.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

PBF Bioset said:


> Same problem. The refligrant, if it is a compressed gas would freeze the injektion valve. In Germany today, autogas (lpg) systems get more and more famous and we often thought about how to upgrade this systems. At the moment the gas left the valve it expends and tooks the heatenergy from its surrounding. It's even the same if the gas is liquid. To solve this problem an evaporator, heatet by the refrigerant of the engine, helps the liquid gas to change its condition from liquid to gaseous. After this the gas has an uncritical pressure for the case that the valve diameter is big enough. Otherwise it would still freeze the injektion valve.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is exactly what I was thinking... I just didn't feel like writing that much.


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## PBF Bioset (Apr 25, 2010)

Mh. Maybe this could work with a Wankel-engine (mazda rx8). The force you'll need after the system is already running would be smaler. But energetic you will always loose some energy because of friction. A perpetuum mobile can't be built at this time...  
or?... there were also centuries, people said world is a plate... 

To find some info about a non-freezing system we would have to talk to the engineers oft the direct injected lpg systems. They must have found a solution. This moment that knowledge surpasses my horizon ^^


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

I would imagine the act of compressing the gas would always require more energy then what would be generated.



.....but there must be way!!!


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

PBF Bioset said:


> A problem I would think of is, that an expanding gas (air) cooles down. So if you got it under higher pessuere as it will be used it is possible, that your valve (tankside) freezes. You can have a look at this effect, if you use the air filling maschine at a fuelstation.


This is true, very true.


Rukee said:


> How about an engine that runs on refrigerant? You could eliminate the whole intake system. Direct inject the refrigerant right into the cyl. The expanding gas would push the piston down. Power would be determined by how much is injected. Reclaim the gas after the exhaust manifold, run it through the pump again and start the whole process over.


The thing is refigerant displaces oxygen, and it boils at a very low temprerature. Plus you would still need a big enough receaver, condensor, some type of collector, large compressor and some type of controller to controll the expansion valves.


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