# the bargain 400



## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

broke open the "rebuilt" 400 i picked up for 450.00. Spins nice and smooth took the heads off to find new comtech head gaskets, heads are 6X-8's and appear in real good condition with a slight dry carbon build up on top of the pistons. walls are nice and smooth no ridges. And the best thing STD pistons, pulled the pan and this is what i found. Front main bearing is worst of the bunch, most look like new with no wear. Did not see any stampings on the backs of bearings, does that mean they are standards? rods have been number stamped, wondering if someone just did a bearing/rings re-build on it, lifters and cam look good and crank is smooth. will have to dig up specs and micrometer and start checking clearances. all in all looks like a good motor for the price.
































block is YS ?299009 with 491988 casting appears to be 71' 300 hp?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Looks to be in great shape, even that one bearing doesn't really look bad. I still can't get used to those funky "8-eyed" pistons though.

What's the date code by the distributor? The YS/491988 combination according to Wallace Racing could be a 71,72,73,or75 year model.


Good that it's NOT a 500557 - those didn't have as much meat in the main webs and aren't as strong.

Nice find!

Bear


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

date code is L201, he said it was a 71 block. Picked it up as a backup and possible stroker (after seeing yours) for the Tempest or a future 69' Firebird build.

can a nodular 455 crank be cut down to a stroker for the 400, as i have one thats beyond a .020 cleanup?

how do i clean out the infamous hidden oil passage and make sure its done correctly?

What would the compression be with 6x-8 heads (101cc?) or 6x-4 heads (96cc)?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Great buy. You stole it. I like everything I see except for the pistons.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

piston tops still have some carbon build-up in the reliefs, no pitting from detonation, looks like they were running it real rich. It will get treated to a .030 over bore, forged pistons and rods and hyd roller cam set-up in the long run (when i hit the Lotto...) All ready have a thumper wanna make this one a screamer.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Instg8ter said:


> date code is L201, he said it was a 71 block. Picked it up as a backup and possible stroker (after seeing yours) for the Tempest or a future 69' Firebird build.
> 
> can a nodular 455 crank be cut down to a stroker for the 400, as i have one thats beyond a .020 cleanup?
> 
> ...


ok --- L201 would make it a model year '72 block. The engine plants usually switched over about mid-year to start building engines for the next model year, ramping up production so the assembly plants would have a supply for the next year. L is very late in 71.. like December?

I've heard of 455 cranks being cut down for "small" journal blocks. There's more to it than just cutting down the main journals though. The width of the thrust bearings are different. The 400 is narrower so either the thrust surfaces on the 455 crank will have to be welded up then machined to the new width, or a special bearing with thicker "sides" will be needed to make up the difference. I think maybe there's an Oldsmobile bearing that's correct for the job. There's also a slight difference on the rear main seal surface.

There's an article that talks about all this on Fulper's site - if you can separate the facts from the swagger  
(Serious Pontiac Horespower - Rock and Roll Engineering)
There are other sites that talk about it too, that's just the first one I found.

The conundum is, by the time you pay to have all the machine work done on the crank, including correcting the thrust bearing issue, you may be very close to the cost of a new cast stroker crank anyway (that you can get with rod journals sized and positioned to run longer 6.800" rods, which is a good thing.)

But... yeah, it can be done :cheers

OOps: Edit to talk about the infamous hidden oil plug...
Best answer? Get a copy of Jim Hand's book and do it yourself. That way you'll know for certain is was done right. It's not hard to do. In fact I tapped my block and put screw-in pipe plugs in *all* the oil gallery end holes, front and rear.

Edit again to add compression ratio stuff...
The attached file is a word document that has an embedded Excel spreadsheet. This is what I use to play 'what if' games on compression ratios. You can change all the measurements (bore, stroke, deck height, dish, chamber volume, gasket thickness, etc) to see what effect they have on static compression ratio.


Bear


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Instg8ter said:


> piston tops still have some carbon build-up in the reliefs, no pitting from detonation, looks like they were running it real rich. It will get treated to a .030 over bore, forged pistons and rods and hyd roller cam set-up in the long run (when i hit the Lotto...) All ready have a thumper wanna make this one a screamer.


Go for it!!! If you're going to pull out all the stops... why not a solid roller instead of a hydraulic? Solid lifters are lighter (less mass to move around) and the good ones with positive pin oiling last a long time --- from what I hear too you really don't have to readjust them often --- couple times a year maybe --- and that's fun to do anyway.

Bear


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Found why they pulled the motor, in going through the oil pan found a small square bit of metal....first thought was ring but it had no radius, next thought was the crank chewed up the wrong size oil dip stick but it was a clean bend edge where it broke....pulled of water pump to find cam eccentric and bolt holding on by one thread and stripped, with the tab broken off the eccentric so it would have been getting no fuel. How would i tell if the cam has been shot due to this?

this is the can that was in it

Pontiac V8 - Street Master

Adv. Duration: 295° Int. / 295° Exh.
Duration @ .050": 245° Int. / 245° Exh.
Gross Lift: .534" Int. / .534" Exh.
Lobe Centerline: 104° Int. /112° Exh. 
RPM Range: 2500-6500


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

If you can install a new eccentric and the bolt feels fine going in and tightens up as it should, you're fine. If not, you can chase/redo the threads perhaps (cams are really hard) or replace the cam and eccentric. No worries: that piece was too big to get into the oil pump and do any damage.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

think the cam threads can be chased looks like the bolt threads are worn from the eccentric spinning around it, bet someone forgot the locktite. Seems like a pretty beastly cam in a 400....any thoughts on how that cam will perform in a stock bore or .030 over. with built TH350 auto and 2:76 rear gears?


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Ok quick question for the motor guru's. was looking at bore sizes and seen that the .030 over forged 455 pistons i have are the same as an .060 bored 400 block. question is would they work with a stroker crank on the 400, and what rod length would i need?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Instg8ter said:


> Ok quick question for the motor guru's. was looking at bore sizes and seen that the .030 over forged 455 pistons i have are the same as an .060 bored 400 block. question is would they work with a stroker crank on the 400, and what rod length would i need?


Would work with a 455 stroke length. All stock Pontiac rods are same length. Difference in 400 and 455 pistons is in the compression height (how far the pin is from the top of the piston). Don't use stock rods though, get some good forged rods. As always be careful with compression. 

Bear


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Instg8ter said:


> Found why they pulled the motor, in going through the oil pan found a small square bit of metal....first thought was ring but it had no radius, next thought was the crank chewed up the wrong size oil dip stick but it was a clean bend edge where it broke....pulled of water pump to find cam eccentric and bolt holding on by one thread and stripped, with the tab broken off the eccentric so it would have been getting no fuel. How would i tell if the cam has been shot due to this?
> 
> this is the can that was in it
> 
> ...


Pull the cam and inspect visually and by touch for any lobes that have any perceptible ridges caused by the lifters riding off the edge. When the eccentric backs out it can let the cam recede into the block so that the lifters don't "cover" the whole lobe. If you have ridges the cam and lifters are toast.

Besr


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

The lifters may give it away too, if any are dished on the bottom I would expect the cam to be junk.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Things may be picking up with the business in the coming year so it is looking more and more like this thing will get the stroker treatment so to start my shopping list i will need 

-stroker crank (anyone use Ohio Crank?)
-block cleaned and machined
-forged pistons at whatever bore the machine shop specs (thinking .030 over to true them up.)
-Forged H or I beam rods and pins
-balancing
-moly rings
-clevite 77 standard bearing set
-If all goes well new Eddy heads
or my all ready done 6X-4's ported if budget is tight
-will probably do Hyd roller cam and lifters to avoid break in and oil additive problems

any suggestions for mainly street set-up in the mid 400 hp range at the rear wheels that will produce good vacuum

Am running 2:7X open rear end at most it will go too 3:23 when i do a posi


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

well business has been good this winter and i have decided my best bang for the buck is gonna be a stroked 400. Will be looking to get 450+hp/500+tq with good street manners for cruising and mid range freeway trips with 2:56 rear gear and TH350 built for up to 500HP and 2700 stall converter. 

What i have:
72' std bore block will be bored to .030 over and the deck cleaned up
6x 96cc heads with fresh three angle valve job, harland sharp 1:65 roller rockers
sealed power high volume oil pump
edelbrock performer two intake with eddy 750 carb
ARP bolt kit for entire motor
Trans and comverter

What i need:
Block cleaned and dipped, oil passages cleaned and tapped for plugs cam bearings and brass freeze plugs, bored and honed to .030 over
Stroker kit with nodular crank, forged pistons, and H beam forged rods (whats best stroke and piston cc combo to make 9.5:1 compression with the 6x 96cc heads?)
Roller cam and lifters (hyd or solid? Specs for good street cam with a bit of lope? 
Main seal from Butler
rotating assembly balanced


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

I have a set of new 1:5 ratio roller tipped rocker arms with new lock nuts that wouldn't fit on my heads if your interested.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Instg8ter said:


> What i have:
> 72' std bore block will be bored to .030 over and the deck cleaned up
> 6x 96cc heads with fresh three angle valve job, harland sharp 1:65 roller rockers
> sealed power high volume oil pump
> ...


::Raising hand:: Oooo! Ooooo! Ooooo!

Couple things... If you go with the same (or similar) stroker kit I used, you need to take the bores out to +0.035 (to 4.155), not + 0.030.

96 cc heads...

Ok, I put your numbers into my handy-dandy spreadsheet, I came up with a couple different options for you.

Option one: KB/Icon IC938's - standard bore size is 4.125, +.030 would be 4.155. They have a compression height of 1.3, D-shaped dish of 10.25 cc's. Run those with a "long rod" stroker kit like mine (uses 6.800" forged rods). If you zero deck the block and use standard thickness (.042" compressed) that have a 4.160 gasket bore size, that puts you at 9.147:1 with a quench distance of 0.042. Go with thinner gaskets, say .035, and you're at 9.258:1 with .035 quench distance (because of the D-shaped dishes). I like that last option a LOT.

Option two: IB/Icon IC IC941's - (same bore sizes and compression height as the IC938's, so run with a "long rod" stroker). These are flat tops with 4.25 cc's worth of clearance in the valve pockets. Run with standard .042 gaskets, gives you a quench distance of .042 if you zero-deck the block. With the block zero-decked those would put you at 9.620:1 which I personally think is too high, but with the benefits of the zero-deck and with a rowdy enough cam and excellent cooling system etc., you might be able to pull it off if you're lucky - maybe. Don't zero-deck the block and (assuming it turns out to be the Pontiac usual of .020 deck clearance) and you'd be at 9.289:1 with .062 quench distance. Probably safe on compression, but with quench characteristics not as good as you'd get with the IC938's and thin gaskets.

Here's a link to the info on those two pistons:
Icon Forged Racing Pistons

And I'll also attach a copy of my spreadsheet. (Actually embedded in a Word document - instructions on how to use it at the top of the first page)

If you have those heads "worked" by someone good to maximize their flow potential (like Dave Wilcox at CVMS) and put enough cam in it, it's very likely you'll wind up making both more power and more torque than I am.

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I like everything you're doing except perhaps the intake and carb, but that's my problem. Bear has really BTDT on this type of combo, and he makes excellent sense, as usual. As an aside, though he hasn't posted lately on either forum, give Mr. P-Body a shout. From what I've gleaned by talking to him and actually building another engine more or less to his "formula" (flow trumps compression), I don't think you could go wrong. You'll have a strong, tractable, durable engine with mucho power.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

ammendment: like the master Bear says the bore will be .034 for the kit (nice catch)...and thanks for the furmulas knew you would be on top of it...:cheers
and GeeTee, i do have a stock 4bbl manifold and will be looking to pick up a 800 Quadrajet for that option


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

The only reason I caught that is that when I built mine, I made that mistake and had to pay to have it done twice --- once to 4.150, again to 4.155  One of those "ask me how I know" deals... 

I think the piston specs say what size to bore the block to - the actual out of the box diameter of the pistons will be such that if you bore the block to what they say, then clearances will be correct for the piston.

+1 on the recommendation to consult with Mr. PBody (Jim Lehart at CVMS). One can count on him to stay up to date with what's going on in the field and on what parts are available, what works, what doesn't, etc. 

Bear


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

these are the specs on the two stroker kits i am looking at have the forged IC pistons and H beam forged rods. not gonna go crazy on the cam but similar numbers to your engine would be fine with me Bear....

kit1
NEW Cast Nodular Crank 4.500 X 400 mains (3.000) 
NEW Forged 5140 I-Beam Rods 6.700 x .990 
NEW Forged Pistons 
-IC 943 16.8cc dish (72cc = 11.3:1) (87cc = 9.9:1) 
or
-IC942 Flattop (72cc = 12.9:1) (87cc = 10.9:1)
(Please specify when ordering your kit)
This kit also includes
Hasting Moly Rings 2M5529
New Rod and Main Bearings.
The following bore sizes are available :
4.155 (488ci) 4.165 (490ci) 4.185 (495ci) 4.190 (496ci) 4.195 (498ci) 4.200 (499ci) 4.210 (501ci)


kit2
This kit features :
NEW Cast Nodular Crank 4.250X 400 mains (3.000) 
NEW Forged 5140 I-Beam Rods 6.800 x .990 
NEW Forged Pistons 
-IC 938 10.6 CC Dish (72cc =11.4:1) 
or
-IC941 Flattop
(Please specify when ordering your kit)
This kit also includes
Hasting Moly Rings 2M5529
New Rod and Main Bearings.
The following bore sizes are available :
4.155 (461ci) 4.165 (463ci) 4.185 (468ci) 4.190 (469ci) 4.195 (470ci) 4.200 (471ci) 4.210 (473ci)


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## TommyG67 (Dec 17, 2009)

That cam sounds HUGE for a 400 running 2.76 gears. I don't think it's going to be a happy compination IMHO.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I like this one:
kit2
This kit features :
NEW Cast Nodular Crank 4.250X 400 mains (3.000) 
NEW Forged 5140 I-Beam Rods 6.800 x .990 
NEW Forged Pistons 
-IC 938 10.6 CC Dish (72cc =11.4:1) 

Are you going to reuse this cam?
Pontiac V8 - Street Master

Adv. Duration: 295° Int. / 295° Exh.
Duration @ .050": 245° Int. / 245° Exh.
Gross Lift: .534" Int. / .534" Exh.
Lobe Centerline: 104° Int. /112° Exh. 
RPM Range: 2500-6500 

I agree - that's going to be very nasty... it's also got a tight LSA (108 degrees) which is going to make it real "peaky". By comparison, the solid roller I'm running in the Beast is "only" 236/242 @ .050 with a 110 degree LSA. A flat tappet cam is going to tend to have more overlap period too because the ramps can't be as steep as on a roller. I'd give Mr. P a call and pick his brain on a cam choice.

Bear


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Sorry for not catching that...No i will not be using the old cam i will be using a new full roller that will have good street manners. since the goal here is 450hp should not have to go too crazy with the cam....any suggestions are welcome. Bear i tried pulling up your spreadsheet but my program will not let me edit it...can you run kit two with the 96cc heads and just enough decking to true up the block. I am looking at getting a good street porting on the heads (what should i expect to pay?).


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Weird on the spreadsheet --- You do have to have Excel installed to be able to edit it. Open the document, then move the mouse pointer somewhere "inside" the spreadsheet, then double-click. Doing that should put you into edit mode and allow you to make changes.

Cool that you're going the roller route. I sure like mine - I call it the 'Mr. PBody Special' because it's a grind that he has Comp Cams make up for him. It's got "attitude" at an 800-900 rpm idle, but cleans up really nicely by 1100-1200 rpm and doesn't need outrageous spring pressures or unreasonable rpm to work. In my engine it makes about 13" of idle vacuum once it's warm, so that's why I went with hydroboost brakes and an aftermarket a/c. I thought 13" was borderline for vacuum accessories. If you're interested in that one, give him a call. He can fix you up with the cam and also the right springs, lifters, retainers, and locks. In fact, it'd be a good time to talk your porting over with Dave Wilcox. I've never paid to have a set of heads done so I don't have a clue about cost, but I'm confident that if Dave does them they'll be right.

I ran Kit 2 through my spreasheet and printed it out as a .pdf, and will attach it to this post. One thing I changed from what you said was I went ahead and ran it with the block zero-decked and with thinner gaskets (0.035 compressed). Doing that will really optimize the quench characteristics in the cylinders and that's a very good thing to do, both for combustion efficiency and detonation resistance. Just for reference though, if you keep everything else the same as the spreadsheet shows except for running standard .042 gaskets, that makes compression 9.147:1. If you run .042 gaskets and do not zero-deck the block (and if deck clearance winds up where most Pontiacs usually are at 0.020 down) then that puts it at 8.851:1
I guess I'm really sensitive to that quench number because my engine is so bad in that department. In order to run those 72cc heads I had to just give up on having any kind of quench at all.

Make sure you cc the heads yourself so you know the volume for certain. Just a few cc's can make a big difference.

Really - let me encourage you again to call Jim and discuss cams. He's great to talk to.

Bear


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

thanks Bear....i will try and give Jim a call before i set this thing in motion. Like the sound of those cam specs (and your motor) may need a bit more vacuum but i can give up a little grunt for that. Biggest rear gear i will go will be 3:24, wanted to get some miles on it with the 2:56 before i did the rear and really like being able to cruise along at 65 with the 3 speed without feeling like i am in a blender (not to mention the gas mileage) and for a cruiser i don't need to be the fastest guy in town....just owning a cool unique Pontiac is bragging rights enough in my book....


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Block will be heading to the machine shop this week, hoping to be able to order the stroker kit next weekend and if all goes well it will be back and in car first week of April depending on whether i can find a dyno to drop it on before re-install....starting to lean towards a tri-power set-up on this one.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Looking forward to your results, and I love the tripower idea. If perchance you do decide to go rowdy on the cam, I can show you how to put together your own hyrdoboost brake system for about $500, which is half of what the off-the-shelf kits go for. That would make the vacuum a non-issue.

Bear


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

figured i would need to at the very least get an 800 Quad, and i can put together a tri-power for not much more than what i will be into new intake and carb for the bigger 4 bbl.. Picked up a few large jobs last week so i have stars in my eyes and am on the lookout for some alum. heads to top it off with......next dilema, this will leave me with a perfectly good 463 without a home....can you say firebird project.....:rofl:


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I was just out on the CVMS web site looking at what Dave has done with an Ames Tripower... made my mouth water.

Bear


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

have a line on the carbs with progressive linkage, I see that ames has a repro alum manifold or i found a few originals at decent prices. I will need to get a small cap HEI and the gas lines....still kicking it around but i like the idea of trip deuces.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

thinking of these to top it off also....what pistons would i need with the 65cc heads i am assuming the dished

New Pontiac Heads 65cc Butler Heads Race Port W/ Flow Sheet 321.2 cfm @.700 5.200 Ferrea Valves 2.11 - 1.77 1.875 Springs Titanium Retainers Lash Caps 5 Angle Valve Job. Also Edalbrock Victor Ports Matchad Intake


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Instg8ter said:


> thinking of these to top it off also....what pistons would i need with the 65cc heads i am assuming the dished
> 
> New Pontiac Heads 65cc Butler Heads Race Port W/ Flow Sheet 321.2 cfm @.700 5.200 Ferrea Valves 2.11 - 1.77 1.875 Springs Titanium Retainers Lash Caps 5 Angle Valve Job. Also Edalbrock Victor Ports Matchad Intake


I assume they're aluminum?

With 20 cc's of dish in the pistons, nominal (.020) deck clearance, and starndard gaskets (.042) it'd still be at 10.569:1. Zero decked its just a taste over 11:1. Honestly I haven't spent much time on aluminum head combinations so I'm not sure how far you can push it --- it just sort of seems high to me. If I had the choice, I'd probably go for larger chambers (87 cc) along with flat tops, .035 gaskets, and zero decking. That's in the neighborhood of 10.46:1 but will have -way- better quench characteristics. Quench is good for you 

Bear


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

They are flowing the heads at .700 of lift, that's race car high rpm stuff. Make sure they don't overflow and kill the bottom end, and make sure the valvesprings aren't for that lift. Sounds like your thinking killer motor, you'll have to lose the nice highway gear, or it will spin or sit. Pontiacs are torque, not HP and victor Jr material, more performer plus deals. Unless you are building limited street, be carefull, you love the car now, don't over do it.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

yeah more i look at it they are probably overkill....do have a 3:55 12-bolt waiting to go in though, should make it a little quicker. Like Bear says i can use the 6x-4's with flat tops at around 9.4:1 and if i do get the eddy's later the 85cc's will swap on at a little 10.3:1 without any other changes


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

OK, next is the cam....heres a suggestion for a custom grind from a respected vendor. Kinda curious on the power curve. 

Bear, Any chance you can punch the numbers in your dyno sym?

230/238 or so on a 109-110. You have enough compression, gear, converter and cubic inches to handle that. Lift would be about .578/.561 with the 1.65 rockers.

heres where i stand on the rest of it:

NEW Cast Nodular Crank 4.250X 400 mains (3.000) 
NEW Forged 5140 I-Beam Rods 6.800 x .990 
NEW Forged Pistons 
-IC941 Flattop (9.4:1 with .032 head gasket and zero deck)
Hasting Moly Rings 2M5529
New Rod and Main Bearings, clevite 77
The following bore sizes are available :
4.155 (461ci)
running through a built TH350 stage 2 shift kit and 2700 RPM stall
12 bolt chevy rear end with 3:55 posi
heads are 6x-4 with HS 1:65 roller rockers
looking to drop either 800 quadrajet or tri-power on it
2.5" dual exhaust back to bumper with magnaflow mufflers
1 3/4" three pipe Hooker jet coat headers into 3" collectors


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