# Muncie installation problem



## mysons69 (Mar 3, 2012)

Hi guys. I’m hoping someone can impart some words of wisdom.

My son and I bought a ’69 GTO to work on together. Not original, it came with a ’79 T/A 400 and a Saginaw 4 speed. The trans had no reverse, so besides being a Saginaw, it had to go. I Recently picked up an M20 from a ’69 Vette to transplant and get the car back toward what it should be. Today we tried the swap, without much success.

I’m going to say right off that we did NOT change the clutch at this point. I know it’s bad and has to be changed, but I’m concerned with how the shifter (Hurst, that’s all I know) is going to line up with the chassis. This car has been somewhat molested in the past 40 odd years, so everything is suspect in my mind. Right now we’re trying to see what parts besides clutch, plate, etc. we’re going to need, so we want to install the Muncie, check the shifter and linkages, the get everything we need to do it right.

So what we did was pull the Saginaw and measure everything. Turns out the Muncie and Sag have identical dimensions. Same overall length, input shaft length & diameter, spline count, everything. I’m thinking at this point, this part is gonna be a breeze. WRONG. 

We could get the trans almost all the way in, but not completely. It wouldn’t go in that last approximately 3/8”. It seems to get stuck at the bell housing on the trans front bearing retainer. Pulled the M20 out, measured outside diameter of front bearing retainer with dial caliper, got 4-43/64”. Checked the Sag, same number. Measured the inside diameter of the bell housing, SAME NUMBER AGAIN! :confused
Then we tried to reinstall the Sag, got stuck at the same point. I will add, when we pulled the Sag, it did not want to come out; had to pry it out with a 3’ pry bar.

Is it normal for the bell housing opening to be so ridiculously close to the diameter of the trans front bearing retainer? It seems that a few extra thousandths couldn’t hurt here. 

Another thing to mention. The bell housing is p/n 9778882, while the original in the car (according to Zazarine) should be p/n 9785581. I’ve searched around to see if there is any difference between the two, but what little I’ve found makes it seem they are virtually identical and interchangeable. 9778882 is a BOP part.

If anyone has had a similar problem getting the trans in that last 3/8”, I would greatly appreciate any insight.

Thanks,
Dan


----------



## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Steel touching aluminum can corrode badly. I would take some 100 grit paper and clean up the bellhousing hole to eliminate that as a problem. The input retainer should be snug to prevent the trans from shifting around on the bolt holes. The other thing I would check is the pilot bearing. It may have been going bad and came partway out of the crank with the shaft while removing the trans. Honestly....I would remove the bell to check the fit with the retainer individually. You are so close right now, why fight it ? If the trans fits the bell nicely on the floor, your problem is deeper. It could be the throwout bearing is out of correct placement on the fork too... I wouldn't be concerned about the shifter at this point. You can get the correct handle from Hurst if it doesn't line up with the floor opening/console. All the shifter bodies are the same that have a bolt on handle.


----------



## rickm (Feb 8, 2012)

sometimes just the slightest amount of rust or corrosion on the end of the shaft that enters the pilot bearing or bushing will cause that problem. I always clean it up with emory paper first with alittle lube before installation of transmission.


----------



## mysons69 (Mar 3, 2012)

Thanks guys. Good thoughts both.

It was at the end of the day yesterday, and our thought was to remove the bell and check everything outside, but I didn't know how to remove it all! 

The last time I replaced a clutch was over 30 years ago, and that was on a '69 Charger or '67 Mustang. Time has kind of dulled the memories of either, and the Pontiac setup seems different, from what I recall.

I'll look through the service manual to figure it out and we'll drop the bell, check it all out. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Any suggestions on clutch? We're not looking for racing equipment, just quality replacement parts.


----------



## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Depress the clutch pedal while inserting the trans into the pilot bearing, you have a minute misalignment. When you push in the pedal it will go right in.

I recommend McLoed for clutches, great products and customer service.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I'm with Alky here. The clutch plate is a hair out of alignment, not allowing the input shaft to engage the pilot. Have someone push the clutch pedal in while you stab it the last 3/8" home. It'll go right in. That said, now that it's out, it's a great time to install a new clutch, pilot bearing, and throwout bearing!!


----------



## mysons69 (Mar 3, 2012)

We (my son; it is his car, after all) pulled the bell, then we checked fit. It was very tight, didn't want to go all the way in. Sanded down the inside diameter of the bell opening, viola! It fit nicely!

New clutch, pressure plate, throwout and bushing being ordered.

Now, a question on the pilot bearing...
I was checking around about the fit problem and found a Chevelle site where they were bemoaning the roller bearing type. Guess what was in our car? I'm leaning toward just getting the brass pilot and going from there. As I said, no racing, this is gonna just be a street car.

Thoughts?

Thanks for all the input; you guys are awesome. When the new clutch arrives, we'll put all of your suggestions to use as necessary. :cheers


----------



## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

From what I've read, Pontiacs came with roller bearing pilot's. The problem a lot of people have with the aftermarket rollers is installing them backwards and basically destroying them in the process and not realizing it and then complaining when it fails prematurely. For what you are looking for, the brass pilot will be fine and last a long time. Try to get a clutch kit with a plastic input shaft to align the disc. It will make the install much easier. An alignment shaft is available separately too, and possibly for loan/rent at an auto store too, if need be. I have an old input shaft I use but I don't think you're close enough to borrow it.

Upon install, I put a very thin coat of anti-seize on the clutch splines to prevent rust from limited use to cause the disc to stick and a thin coat of wheel bearing grease on the pilot end of the input shaft.


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

If you have problems getting the pilot bearing out, fill the area behind the bearing with wheel bearing grease, then find a socket that fits the inside of the bearing snugly, fill the socket with wheel bearing grease, insert a small extension, insert the socket into the bearing and smash the extension with a hammer. The hydraulic pressure will force the bearing out. It may take a few tries and refills.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

X2 on the above advice. I recommend a pilot bearing, as it is superior to a bushing. That said, lot's of folks use bushings without issue. I've had the same pilot bearing in my '65 since 1984, which is when I replaced the clutch. Still working fine.


----------



## mysons69 (Mar 3, 2012)

Oops, too late on the bearing advise. Ordered McLeod clutch kit and brass bushing today, hopefully it will all arrive by Friday the latest.

You guys do pass along some novel solutions, I must say. The bearing in this case came out of the crank without even a whimper. Sometimes you get lucky!


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

If it's too loose it can cause a vibration.


----------



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

WARNING- As I recall, there was a forum question on why the clutch was not disengaging with the new Mcleod clutch kit. The pedal was going all the way to the floor, but the clutch was not disengaging at the flywheel -linkages were all OK. The Mcleod did not come with the correct throw-out bearing (I believe it was the "short") for the Pontiac installation even tho its listed as a kit. There is a "short" and a "long" throw-out bearing used by Pontiac depending on the application of the pressure plate style/type -some had flat "diaphram fingers" while others were raised. My first set up was Mcleod and I had forgotten this after 20 plus years, got my trans all in, ready to roll, and it would not release. Had to pull it all out again, remembered about the throw-out bearing differences, got the right one (which you will have to buy), and had to re-install it all over again (argh!). Measure this against the one you have in hand versus your new one and then compare the height of the diaphram fingers -you might even lay the pressure plates on the ground, set the bearings in place, and measure each's total height. If you know the old one worked, then you want to have the same installed height on your new set-up -and here is where you can adjust the installed height by using the "short" or "long" to get the correct height that worked previously. Hope this is not too confusing.

Check your pivot ball inside the bellhousing. Look OK? They make these new. I used an adjustable type to replace mine. This can be used to adjust the fulcrum point on the clutch fork if need be. I think I adjusted mine a little longer than stock height. Just my choice here, but since the bellhousing was off, I just replaced it anyway. Never had a problem ever with one of these, so just look to see it checks out OK. 

I have always used the bushing, which is bronze -pretty durable. I had a problem with my last installation using the bushing. I was told there were 2 sizes, one for the 400 and one for the 455. Never heard of such a thing, but never ran any 455's either. The bushing I had would not fit, just a slight bit too large. I rigged it up in my drill and sanded it down to fit. Worked OK. Now it simply may have been the manufacturer as not all replacement parts seem to be replacement without some kind of modification or another.

Does your flywheel need to be resurfaced? Check for grooves,ridges, high/low spots. When installing a new clutch set-up in a car I am not familiar with, I usually take my flywheel to a machine shop to inspect it for cracks and have it surface milled for a smooth finish.

I take it you have a used, not rebuilt trans? Have the front and rear seals replaced while it is out. This is quick and easy insurance and you won't have to pull the trans later if leaks show up because the seals have dried up or gone bad, and you won't ruin your clutch with oil later on. Look at the input shaft on your driveshaft to make sure you don't have a deep groove in it where the old seal dried up and wore into it. If so, at some point, you can buy this new as well. And since you have the driveshaft out, how are those universal joints. Easy enough to replace yourself

Take a look at your clutch linkage, you may want to consider replacing your clutch linkage with new as they make all the parts. Mine was a little sloppy and wallowed out where the clutch pedal shaft (coming through the firewall) connects to the cross shaft linkage. Too much slop from wear can affect clutch adjustment.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Very good post, PontiacJim. This should probably be a 'sticky'. Excellent information that can save much anxiety!!
Jeff


----------



## mysons69 (Mar 3, 2012)

WOW! Great advice PontiacJim. Too bad for us I didn't see it till now.

So, first of all, I took your advice, Alky, and went with McLeod. We just did the install today, and the sucker didn't want to go that last bit again. I remembered what you said about pushing the clutch pedal in, and Viola!, in she went.

As mentioned, I didn't see PontiacJim's post until all is done. Well, not a real big problem, since I think we're gonna have to pull the tranny again anyway. Seems the bellhousing is stripped, upper right trans mount. Time for a helicoil. I will check the heights of the old vs new throwout bearing. I think the new was a bit lower. 

Another issue we came up against is the tranny crossmember. The holes in the crossmember don't line up with the trans mount. In fact, the holes were either drilled by somebody on crack, or they decided to expand the originals, and not very well. I was HOPING they might line up, but they don't. Is it possible anyone out there has a picture of the proper crossmember? I suspect this may be another Frankenstein part in this beast. In fact, it looks as if they hacked out an area to fit the trans mount, but I don't know if that open area should be there or not. See pic.


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

That doesn't look that bad at all, don't sweat it !! Bolt it up tight you'll be fine. :cheers


----------

