# Bullet Cam Experience?



## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I've been building and maintaining a 67 GTO, for it's original owner, for the last 15 years, and he finally sold me the car. For the record, it's my second 67, and I've also had (35 years ago) a 66, 74, and a few Trans Ams... I also am a C3 builder, and I see that I share that with a few of you here.

He had the motor rebuilt and the shop put in a Bullet Cam part no. 507000

I've been out of Pontiac for so long, but it seemed like an odd choice to me. Has anyone had any experience with them? 

I have the paperwork for the build, and it's the usual 400, 670's (with some work done), forged pistons, moly rings, and the Bullet Roller cam. The plug wires look like they're from a Schwinn Stingray, and the distributor (oem) and carb (new 750 Demon) are very lacking, so I need to bring this car back into the "cared for" world.

The specs for the cam appear to be 222/230, 353/353, 530/530 

My last 67 had the Crane Fireball RA cam, and I was told that this cam was mild, but I'm no cam guru at all. The car idles like a dragster, so before I start to tear into other things, is it just the cam?


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

Bullet cams are good cams. They started using the Ultradyne cam profiles of Harold Brookshire when Ultradyne went away. I believe Harold worked for them as well. Harold passed away about 5 years ago. As to the sound, I'm surprised a cam that small "idles like a dragster ". A roller cam with those specs should be quite docile. My guess is that the cam is much larger than that.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I suspect that the car has a nasty miss then... Either from the 35 year old Accel wires or the valve adjustment. The engine was rebuilt four years ago and then they only put 200 miles on it. With the moly rings and less than 500 miles on it, I'm sure that it needs to be run and then have a valve adjustment.

But, as I mentioned, I don't know much about cams, so I didn't want to go crazy if it was supposed to be that way. It sounds like it's missing to me, and although the power seems very mediocre, it does light both tires with ease.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> Bullet cams are good cams. They started using the Ultradyne cam profiles of Harold Brookshire when Ultradyne went away. I believe Harold worked for them as well. Harold passed away about 5 years ago. As to the sound, I'm surprised a cam that small "idles like a dragster ". A roller cam with those specs should be quite docile. My guess is that the cam is much larger than that.


I'm wondering what the reasoning behind that cam selection was. Is it close to the RA/ HO specs?


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

It’s closer to the “S”cam, first used in the 65 GTO tripower cars. Being a roller it will idle even more smoothly than the “S” cam.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> It’s closer to the “S”cam, first used in the 65 GTO tripower cars. Being a roller it will idle even more smoothly than the “S” cam.


Okay. The engine dyno'd at 360, so I'd be happy either way, but now I know that something else is making it idle really bad. 

My only carb tuning experience is with the Qjet and Edelbrock AVS, and since my Qjets are both in serious need, I'll probably buy an 800 CFM AVS2 for it. I have new wires and a new dist on their way, that'll just leave me with a valve adjustment.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

You can feel confident about OMT's advice, he's been doing Pontiacs for almost sixty years.I've learned alot from him here and on the PY forum.

If you want to get those Q-jets functioning better than new, contact Cliff Ruggles, the "Q-jet guru". Cliff has done and raced Q-jets for many, many years and he has a multitude of parts, many he has had custom made for his business. He rebult and modified Q-jets for his customers but quit that several years ago. He will however troubleshoot them. He is easy to talk with and has been a help to me. He also wrote the ultimate book for rebuilding/modifying Q-jets Here's his site for info, parts and books (books also on Amazon):



Cliffs High Performance Quadrajets – Quadrajet Rebuild Kits, Cabruretor Parts, Quadrajet Rebuilding, Quadrajet Parts, Bushing Kits, Carb Tuning



Welcome to the forum, don't hesitate to ask any GTO question, we're all here helping each other and someone will have good info/advice for you.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

1968gto421 said:


> You can feel confident about OMT's advice, he's been doing Pontiacs for almost sixty years.I've learned alot from him here and on the PY forum.
> 
> If you want to get those Q-jets functioning better than new, contact Cliff Ruggles, the "Q-jet guru". Cliff has done and raced Q-jets for many, many years and he has a multitude of parts, many he has had custom made for his business. He rebult and modified Q-jets for his customers but quit that several years ago. He will however troubleshoot them. He is easy to talk with and has been a help to me. He also wrote the ultimate book for rebuilding/modifying Q-jets Here's his site for info, parts and books (books also on Amazon):
> 
> ...


Great. Thanks! Although its been 25 years since I had my last GTO, they've always been my end game and what I was working towards. I've rarely been able to afford what I want, but I own a welding and fabrication shop, so I've been working on them for a long time. 

I do a lot of corvettes, so I've had many interactions with Cliff and Lars about the Qjets. I realize that they're everyones favorite, but I've not seen good cores in almost ten years, so the reality is that other carbs have to be considered. 

The 67 that I have now is near perfect, but it wasn't heavily optioned and I really REALLY want it to be a 4 speed, so resisting the chop it going to be tough.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Okay, I dug this up last night... 

I was getting ready to pull the valve covers and adjust the valves, hoping that it would cure the idle miss, however, it doesn't look like the builder used poli locks. He did put new nuts on and he did say that the valves would need to be adjusted after break in, but don't these original style nuts just get bottomed out?

Once I pull the valve covers, I'll identify the studs so that I can add rollers anyway. Any suggestions for rollers?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> Okay, I dug this up last night...
> 
> I was getting ready to pull the valve covers and adjust the valves, hoping that it would cure the idle miss, however, it doesn't look like the builder used poli locks. He did put new nuts on and he did say that the valves would need to be adjusted after break in, but don't these original style nuts just get bottomed out?
> 
> ...


Stock rocker arm nuts get torqued to 20-25 ft pounds IF they are the factory bottleneck studs. Often, they are replaced with ARP 7/16" rocker arm studs and need the poly locks. So will try to use a factory style nut having the crimps to keep them tight, but they will back off - so poly locks are what you want.

I see 3/8" dia pushrods. Is that a typo? Pontiac does not use 3/8" dia. If they are 3/8", then you want to check the clearances at the point where the pushrods come through the head. They may have been clearanced by the machine shop, but verify when the rocker is at full lift.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Stock rocker arm nuts get torqued to 20-25 ft pounds IF they are the factory bottleneck studs. Often, they are replaced with ARP 7/16" rocker arm studs and need the poly locks. So will try to use a factory style nut having the crimps to keep them tight, but they will back off - so poly locks are what you want.
> 
> I see 3/8" dia pushrods. Is that a typo? Pontiac does not use 3/8" dia. If they are 3/8", then you want to check the clearances at the point where the pushrods come through the head. They may have been clearanced by the machine shop, but verify when the rocker is at full lift.


Yeah I saw the "3/8 Pushrod" too. Seemed odd, but I was told that he did extensive work on the heads and intake... odd that he wouldnt list it if he did. The same goes for converting the rocker studs. I'll know in the morning. The car has had at least 300 miles put on it since the engine build, so maybe that's where all of the noise is coming from?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Stock rocker arm nuts get torqued to 20-25 ft pounds IF they are the factory bottleneck studs. Often, they are replaced with ARP 7/16" rocker arm studs and need the poly locks. So will try to use a factory style nut having the crimps to keep them tight, but they will back off - so poly locks are what you want.
> 
> I see 3/8" dia pushrods. Is that a typo? Pontiac does not use 3/8" dia. If they are 3/8", then you want to check the clearances at the point where the pushrods come through the head. They may have been clearanced by the machine shop, but verify when the rocker is at full lift.


BTW Jim, the engine was dyno'd twice, so hopefully, such a foolish mistake wouldve been caught. The builder is reputable... However, he doesnt seem to answer the phone or return calls, so I'm not sure how far his reputation goes..


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> BTW Jim, the engine was dyno'd twice, so hopefully, such a foolish mistake wouldve been caught. The builder is reputable... However, he doesnt seem to answer the phone or return calls, so I'm not sure how far his reputation goes..


You can use 3/8" pushrods, but this is generally not done, but I have never messed with a roller set-up so there may have been a reason for that choice. Just something to check while the covers are off.

The builder may have already installed the 7/16" ARP rocker arm studs as this is a straight forward install by simply replacing the old with new. Getting into higher than factory lifts can snap the bottleneck studs where they neck down from 7/16" to 3/8", so a good builder would be aware of this and replace them. Using a stock style lock nut is not the way to go, but Chevy does this. I myself have gone that route thing it would work and save money. My experience was the nut did back off, rocker arm went a little sideways, and I bent a pushrod - no other damage. Poly locks went back on.

If you go full roller rockers, and not the roller tips, I suggest the stainless over aluminum body. *BearGFR* had a bad experience when his needle bearings went out and turned into a second rebuild. The stainless will hold up much better for street use, and that was what he went with on the second build. Also, from what I read, using the full rollers will require longer rocker arm studs, so you may want to PM *BearGFR* and get his recommendation as to what he used on his set-up.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Often, they are replaced with ARP 7/16" rocker arm studs and need the poly locks.


Even though it has been 25 years since I built my last 67, I vividly remember ordering the wrong rocker components, because I measured the threads and not the stud.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> If you go full roller rockers, and not the roller tips, I suggest the stainless over aluminum body. *BearGFR* had a bad experience when his needle bearings went out and turned into a second rebuild. The stainless will hold up much better for street use, and that was what he went with on the second build. Also, from what I read, using the full rollers will require longer rocker arm studs, so you may want to PM *BearGFR* and get his recommendation as to what he used on his set-up.


Thanks Jim! I will PM him. Off topic, I've been searching all morning for "UPPER DIFF HOUSING BUSHINGS", so that I can replace the upper control arm. Any idea what number to use? I'm doing the entire suspension with Global West, so I'd prefer Poly.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Come to think of it... I put a mild cam in my 66 Lemans, and it started to snap rocker studs regularly. They had to be pulled with a slide hammer. It was fun. Am I to assume, based on what I've read in the forum, that GTO's all used screw in studs?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

armyadarkness said:


> Come to think of it... I put a mild cam in my 66 Lemans, and it started to snap rocker studs regularly. They had to be pulled with a slide hammer. It was fun. Am I to assume, based on what I've read in the forum, that GTO's all used screw in studs?


I don't know about "all", but those 670 heads should definitely have screw-in studs. 
It's really surprising to hear that somebody went to the trouble of putting in a roller and did not also change the studs and use poly locks. That's very questionable in my opinion. 
That being the case, I would also be worried about whether or not the springs were changed to have enough pressure to control that cam, and also whether or not the valve installed heights have been set correctly.
If it were me I'd want to pull those heads and tear them all the way down and check everything.
Those valves, valve springs, And everything else connected to them
are some of the strongest and most stressed components in an engine and if one of them goes away the carnage can be really bad.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

BearGFR said:


> I don't know about "all", but those 670 heads should definitely have screw-in studs.
> It's really surprising to hear that somebody went to the trouble of putting in a roller and did not also change the studs and use poly locks. That's very questionable in my opinion.
> That being the case, I would also be worried about whether or not the springs were changed to have enough pressure to control that cam, and also whether or not the valve installed heights have been set correctly.
> If it were me I'd want to pull those heads and tear them all the way down and check everything.
> ...


Based on the above reciepts, it looks like he definitely addressed the spings... And he also used quality valves, so I'm going to try and be relaxed until I pop a VC


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

That rocker nut is a 7/16" "crimp" nut for a small block Chevy. It is fine for several cycles before it loosens up.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

It looks like the builder used good parts. As far as the rockers go, I run Crower stainless steel full roller rockers on my GTO. The GTO also has a hydraulic roller cam, but it is larger than yours. The same ones have been on since 1981. I ran Harlan Sharp's on my 400 race engine. It had a pretty large solid roller. The larger engine has Yella Terra shaft rockers.

What I liked about the Crower SS rockers was the larger shaft and bearings. I wanted them to last lots of miles. However, the Harlan Sharp's worked just fine on my racecar. However, it only had a total of 440 runs on it rather than hundreds of thousands of miles. The cam in that engine was 271/278 at 0.050" with a net lift of 0.600". I shifted at 6800 and went through the lights at 7200. So the punchline is - buy what you are comfortable with.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> It looks like the builder used good parts. As far as the rockers go, I run Crower stainless steel full roller rockers on my GTO. The GTO also has a hydraulic roller cam, but it is larger than yours. The same ones have been on since 1981. I ran Harlan Sharp's on my 400 race engine. It had a pretty large solid roller. The larger engine has Yella Terra shaft rockers.
> 
> What I liked about the Crower SS rockers was the larger shaft and bearings. I wanted them to last lots of miles. However, the Harlan Sharp's worked just fine on my racecar. However, it only had a total of 440 runs on it rather than hundreds of thousands of miles. The cam in that engine was 271/278 at 0.050" with a net lift of 0.600". I shifted at 6800 and went through the lights at 7200. So the punchline is - buy what you are comfortable with.


The wild card is that the builder lists "184-1040 Rocker nuts", and they're conventional... But then he also lists "Locks", so I'm going to go see baby Jesus in the manger after work, and prey that he caught his mistake, and put on polys. Not sure what else would require locks. Either way, glad to hear your confirmation that he used good parts.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

The valve keepers are referred to as locks, and they are listed in the area of other valve parts.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> The valve keepers are referred to as locks, and they are listed in the area of other valve parts.


Which means I'm likely going to find loose rockers and no way to tighten them before Christmas.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

I don’t believe that is true. The Chevy crimp nuts are adjustable.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> I don’t believe that is true. The Chevy crimp nuts are adjustable.


Right, but won't they just loosen back up? I'm going to order the rollers and studs now. Any idea what the ARP number is? Assuming that there are 3/8 push rods, will they work with
*PRW-0245501 1.52 x 7/16" Stainless Steel Rocker Arm for Pontiac 287-455 and 4.3L V8 1958-81 *


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Obviously for 670 heads


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

The Chevy crimp nuts typically will not loosen up. But the valve train will, so you just tighten them up. When ordering parts - I'm not sure you need studs. It looks like the builder included them. If not, make sure you get 4340 steel studs. It's been so long for me I don't recall where I got them. Plus make sure you get poly locks. Some, if not all, roller rockers will include a locking nut.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

The rocker arm is not impacted by the size of the pushrod. They have pressed in ends that are all the same size.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> The Chevy crimp nuts typically will not loosen up. But the valve train will, so you just tighten them up. When ordering parts - I'm not sure you need studs. It looks like the builder included them. If not, make sure you get 4340 steel studs. It's been so long for me I don't recall where I got them. Plus make sure you get poly locks. Some, if not all, roller rockers will include a locking nut.


I don't see anything in his build specs, which indicated 7/16 studs, so I'm going to assume bottle necks. If so, so I torque them to 20 and forget it, or should I still "adjust" each to zero lash and then stop?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> The rocker arm is not impacted by the size of the pushrod. They have pressed in ends that are all the same size.


Got it. I didnt know if 3/8 PR's required larger RRs


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

armyadarkness said:


> I don't see anything in his build specs, which indicated 7/16 studs, so I'm going to assume bottle necks. If so, so I torque them to 20 and forget it, or should I still "adjust" each to zero lash and then stop?


 NO, NO, NO! The Chevy nuts listed are for 7/16" studs. The only question is if they will be long enough for the new rockers. They probably will. If you torque down the nut you will bottom the lifter.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> NO, NO, NO! The Chevy nuts listed are for 7/16" studs. The only question is if they will be long enough for the new rockers. They probably will. If you torque down the nut you will bottom the lifter.


AHHHHH HAAAAA! You're much more astute than I. So... He doesn't list 7/16 studs being installed, but he lists 184-1040 Nuts, which are for 7/16 studs, so we can assume that it was done. If there were bottle necks, then there'd be 3/8 nuts!

Sorry to jump the gun so much, but I'm pulling the cover at 8am tomorrow and I'm trying to be prepared for whatever I find. It wont be easy to get advice or parts for a 67 Pontiac, on the Sturday before Christmas, during a pandemic.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

Take some good pictures under the valve cover that show the rockers and pushrods.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> Take some good pictures under the valve cover that show the rockers and pushrods.


I will for sure. Thanks again for all of the info.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> Thanks Jim! I will PM him. Off topic, I've been searching all morning for "UPPER DIFF HOUSING BUSHINGS", so that I can replace the upper control arm. Any idea what number to use? I'm doing the entire suspension with Global West, so I'd prefer Poly.


Just have to input the correct terminology. LOL Check these out as an example, they have choices.





__





Rear End Housing Bushings Archives - UMI Performance Inc.







www.umiperformance.com


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Just have to input the correct terminology. LOL Check these out as an example, they have choices.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome! Yeah... That's the problem with the internet; too much gets lost in translation. It takes thee days to explain the same thing that it takes 4 minutes to say on the phone. And that's if you'r lucky enough to find people who know what theyre talking about.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Well... That's that. Yes, it ran like crap, and now it doesn't run at all. Every rocker arm was loose... Yes, it was converted over to 7/16 studs. I adjusted them all, and then I replaced the distributor, now it wont run. Redid the plug wires and distributor at least 10 times. It barely turns over and definitelty no where near starting. I fixed one issue and created another I guess. Now rain is on its way, the car is stuck in the driveway, and it's blocking access to the garage, which has a car that's being picked up tonight.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Anyone with distributor tips?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

armyadarkness said:


> Well... That's that. Yes, it ran like crap, and now it doesn't run at all. Every rocker arm was loose... Yes, it was converted over to 7/16 studs. I adjusted them all,...


How, exactly, did you adjust them?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Turned the engine over by hand. Valves closed, spun the PR until it just stopped, tightened a half turn. Same as Ive always done it.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> Turned the engine over by hand. Valves closed, spun the PR until it just stopped, tightened a half turn. Same as Ive always done it.


First, I don't like to adjust the rockers/lifters with the engine not running. Running, it can get messy, but it gets done right. Some lifters go 1/4 turn, some go 1/2 turn, some go 1 full turn depending on make and other engine specs. Adjusting them running rules out a lot of guess work in my opinion. If new, maybe.

The lifters could be pumped up holding valves open, and this can be a cause of a no start situation, but cranking it over for a bit should allow the lifters to bleed down. BUT, if the valves are now adjusted too tight and valves are not fully closing - no start.

I take it you did not fire up the engine after adjusting the valves and went right to the distributor swap? 

Did you follow the Pontiac wiring sequence and did you install your wires Counter Clockwise? Chevy goes clockwise. Pontiac goes counter clockwise. It is also possible that the No.1 wire may have been in the No.6 position if the previous build did not line up the dots on the camshaft gear & crank gear at 12/12 o'clock. The earlier cars, and some manuals, will show 12/6 0'clock. So being 1967, maybe the wire placement is off. So I would confirm that No.1 cylinder is at TDC and on the compression/fire stroke, then pull the distributor cap and see where your rotor is pointing to confirm either the later cap firing order where you will generally see the No.1 plug wire, or the earlier cap firing order which will be the No.6 spot. Once confirmed, then go CCW with your firing order.

If all looks well, the distributor may just be off enough, advanced or retarded, that it won't pop. Just did this with my '92 S-10 and new distributor. I put it right back to where I had made my rotor pointing mark and it would not pop. Moved it around until I finally got a fire and then kept adjusting until it ran. I think the old distributor was really worn out and sloppy so the rotor was at a different point when I put in the nice and tight distributor.

Of course, you can pull a plug wire to confirm spark to rule out something wrong with the new distributor or its connections.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> First, I don't like to adjust the rockers/lifters with the engine not running. Running, it can get messy, but it gets done right. Some lifters go 1/4 turn, some go 1/2 turn, some go 1 full turn depending on make and other engine specs. Adjusting them running rules out a lot of guess work in my opinion. If new, maybe.
> 
> The lifters could be pumped up holding valves open, and this can be a cause of a no start situation, but cranking it over for a bit should allow the lifters to bleed down. BUT, if the valves are now adjusted too tight and valves are not fully closing - no start.
> 
> ...


Yep... I did CCW, 18436572.

I started by pulling both VC's, and as Bear said, the valves were all super loose. I turned the engine over by hand several times, taking all of the slack out of the PR's and then ending with a half turn. Then I went on to the distributor, without trying to run it first. There were so many jig rigs from the previous owner, that I was optimistic it would fire right up.

I marked the vac adv and rotor, and oddly enough, I swore that the firing order was off when I started, but I didn't pay mind because I knew I was starting fresh. When I dropped in the new dist, the rotor didnt fall where the old one did, but I didnt care because I was starting over anyway. I ran the wires and it turned over like crap, no start. I checked it all, still no start. I verified TDC still no start. I pulled the VC's and verified the valves closed on TDC, still no start. I checked for spark and all the wires are sparking, still no start. It is backfiring and turning over very poorly...

I had the dist out and reinstalled it many times... And, I've literally done this same job on two other GM's over the summer. If I had a rocker too tight, it would turn over easier, I would think... Maybe run poor? This will not start, period. I will say that I didn't make number 1 in the back, as most books show, but when on TDC, compression stroke, valves closed, the rotor points to my number 1.

I'm baffled, and this is super bad timing. After 35 years of waiting... Supposed to be taking my son out for his birthday and our GTO tomorrow. Very sad. No good deed goes unpunished. If anyone has any idea, please give me a buzz. I'll have a small window to work on it tomorrow before I'll have to cancel our plans... So if anyone is feeling like saving Christmas 609 338 eight five oh two


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

BTW, thanks for the input.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> BTW, thanks for the input.


Just for fun, I might put the No.1 wire in the back where No.6 is and run your wires CCW. Getting some backfire and hard cranking sounds like the distributor is out 180 - I had the same experience in my youth when I replaced a timing chain/gear on a '68 GTO I had. Lined the dots on the gears to the early set-up. Engine would cough & pop, crank hard, but no amount of turning the distributor got it firing to run. Junked the car. Did not know about the differences between No.1 position/location on the cap with the 400 and No.6 position/location on the cap for the 389 engines. I now know that all I had to do is get the rotor repositioned 180 degrees from the No.1 to the No. 6 and use the No. 6 cap/position for my No.1 cylinder firing and then follow up with the engine's firing order CCW.

With everything else you have noted, I can't see why it would not fire. Good gas? 12 Volt direct wiring going to the HEI, _and not the factory 7-Volt resistor wire_? Good snappy spark at the plug? Not flooded? It should at least run.

Has the timing chain slipped? Can you pull No. 1 spark plug and confirm the piston is at TDC with both valves closed and the timing mark at the balancer on or near "0"?

Gotta be something simple seeing it was running, but not well.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

On a new distributor make sure the rotor button is making strong contact with the cap, sometimes you have to gently,gently bend up the tip on the rotor for a strong contact.

Some brands have a little paper gauge to make sure that you get the rotor contact in the correct spot,...it will drive you crazy trying other things as this is almost invisible. Verify your HEI connector wires are on right and not loose or backed out, or a prong in the new cap is not bent.......and whenever doing this...a fully charged battery is a must, it wears down as you keep trying to crank and you think it is enough, but it is not.

and I am sure you know this but you have to think about it as you do it,...turning the distributor for advance is turning it against rotation...that is clockwise....so the advance position is different than a corvette,..it is advanced when cap #1 is clockwise of the rotor tip.

It is real easy to be just one cam slot off and you have to Re drop it. You can have it a bit advanced, but too much retarded or advanced will make it real hard to start.

you also can cheat a bit and drop it in where you think it is at number one and put a vacumn pump on the vac can and just pull it all the way out, plug the manifold vac.

that will advance the timing probably about 20 degrees or so without turning it. Take that off if you start turning it a lot, the vacumn can will advance it maybe close enough to start.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Just for fun, I might put the No.1 wire in the back where No.6 is and run your wires CCW. Getting some backfire and hard cranking sounds like the distributor is out 180 - I had the same experience in my youth when I replaced a timing chain/gear on a '68 GTO I had. Lined the dots on the gears to the early set-up. Engine would cough & pop, crank hard, but no amount of turning the distributor got it firing to run. Junked the car. Did not know about the differences between No.1 position/location on the cap with the 400 and No.6 position/location on the cap for the 389 engines. I now know that all I had to do is get the rotor repositioned 180 degrees from the No.1 to the No. 6 and use the No. 6 cap/position for my No.1 cylinder firing and then follow up with the engine's firing order CCW.
> 
> With everything else you have noted, I can't see why it would not fire. Good gas? 12 Volt direct wiring going to the HEI, _and not the factory 7-Volt resistor wire_? Good snappy spark at the plug? Not flooded? It should at least run.
> 
> ...


I had an extensive conv with OMT, last night, and he explained the 1 and 6 issue to me. In my 35 years of working on cars, I definitely have heard of "180 out", and lord knows that I've done it, but I never really broke these issues down in my head, logically, until I went through it all with my C3 last winter. I definitely tend to overthink things and I've thrown out the baby with the bath water, many times. I sold my mint cond, limited edition 79 Trans Am, because the rotor broke and I had just replaced it, so I never checked it. However, that was when I was 19, so as you can imagine, I'm much much stupider now.

Definitely not using the resistor wire. I connected directly to the BATT spade of the fuse block. Gas is new, premium, car ran an hour earlier. I haven't touched the pedal, so it shouldnt be flooded. It's not sounding right turning over, meaning, its not a consistent melody, more of a dots and dashes thing. Yes piston is at TDC when the timing mark is on. Using a spark checker, at multiple locations, shows sufficient spark going to all plugs.

OMT did mention a 4/7 swap cam?

It has to be something simple, but the whole job is simple, so I can't see what I missed. Even if I overtightened a rocker, wouldn't the engine still start an run crappy? I'm going to take my half/turn off each arm, if it doesnt start this morning, after checking again for 180.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Lemans guy said:


> On a new distributor make sure the rotor button is making strong contact with the cap, sometimes you have to gently,gently bend up the tip on the rotor for a strong contact.
> 
> Some brands have a little paper gauge to make sure that you get the rotor contact in the correct spot,...it will drive you crazy trying other things as this is almost invisible. Verify your HEI connector wires are on right and not loose or backed out, or a prong in the new cap is not bent.......and whenever doing this...a fully charged battery is a must, it wears down as you keep trying to crank and you think it is enough, but it is not.
> 
> ...


For the record, I don't even have the vac adv can connected yet.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Lemans guy said:


> On a new distributor make sure the rotor button is making strong contact with the cap, sometimes you have to gently,gently bend up the tip on the rotor for a strong contact.
> 
> Some brands have a little paper gauge to make sure that you get the rotor contact in the correct spot,...it will drive you crazy trying other things as this is almost invisible. Verify your HEI connector wires are on right and not loose or backed out, or a prong in the new cap is not bent.......and whenever doing this...a fully charged battery is a must, it wears down as you keep trying to crank and you think it is enough, but it is not.
> 
> ...


On one of my dist swaps; I screwed up and had it in wrong... but it was advanced enough, that it acted as retarded for the correct number one. Hoever, it did still run... This sucker is dead!

At this point, Ive RR'd the dist a few times, and even rotated wires, so it "shouldnt" be those things. EVen if I were off a tooth, Ive surely negated that by now.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Might be a good idea to get a piston stop altho it shouldn't be necessary, just to know exactly where your TDC is with your damper marks. Is it a new or old factory damper?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

armyadarkness said:


> Yep... I did CCW, 18436572.
> 
> I started by pulling both VC's, and as Bear said, the valves were all super loose. I turned the engine over by hand several times, taking all of the slack out of the PR's and then ending with a half turn. Then I went on to the distributor, without trying to run it first. There were so many jig rigs from the previous owner, that I was optimistic it would fire right up.
> 
> ...


You might already know this and if you do, I don't mean to insult your intelligence, but...

One other, really simple thing that Chevy guys especially, tend to overlook when working on Pontiacs. The distributor rotor turns counter clockwise in Pontiacs. So, if you start with #1 but then wire the cap "backwards", as if the rotor turns clockwise.... 

Also, on adjusting the valves - ending off. It's better to turn the engine over by hand until you see the >exhaust< valve just barely beginning to open and then adjust the INTAKE valve on that cylinder. Once that's done, turn the crank until the >intake< valve is just beginning to close, adjust the EXHAUST valve. This guarantees that you're on the cam base circle for each valve when you adjust it. Doing it with both valves closed doesn't necessarily guarantee that. You might be slightly onto one of the lobe ramps at that point, but just not far enough to be able to see any movement. I don't think that's your current 'not starting' problem though.

Bear

Bear


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> On one of my dist swaps; I screwed up and had it in wrong... but it was advanced enough, that it acted as retarded for the correct number one. Hoever, it did still run... This sucker is dead!
> 
> At this point, Ive RR'd the dist a few times, and even rotated wires, so it "shouldnt" be those things. EVen if I were off a tooth, Ive surely negated that by now.


Wow, I'm sharing your frustrations on this one. Put the old distributor back in at this point to rule out you got a damaged/bad "new" distributor. Make sure you have good grounding between the engine/firewall and engine/frame. We have had past members have issues with the grounding of the distributor to the block right at the distributor which is odd, and poor grounding from the block to body - which was fixed using a battery cable. You can get paint/corrosion under the ground attachment or within the cable itself. Just one more thing to check.

So I would put the engine back to where it at least ran. Re-install the old distributor.

You did not say what brand/type distributor you stuck in there?

Pull all the spark plugs and see if the engine spins over real quick, which it should with a fully charged/good battery. Then I might install 1 at a time to see how it changes your cranking. You may find a cylinder acting up if this changes on any specific plug. I have never done this to diagnose a cranking/engine problem, but it is something that might diagnose a problem.

Being an aftermarket distributor (?) is may simply be a bad unit. 2 things come to mind. Rotor phasing. This would require you to sacrifice a distributor cap to drill a sight hole in it so you can see the position of the rotor-to-No. 1 plug wire terminal. This will let you know if something is wrong internally with the distributor and/or it is firing when it should.Read this article:





__





Rotor Phasing


Phasing can be beneficial to your vehicle's power. Knowing what phasing is can be a good place to start.




www.speedwaymotors.com





The 2nd thing could be that the rotor end is too short and not making contact with the electrode posts within the cap. Drilling a hole in the cap will again let you peer in an see this. I read of one guy having a bad distributor cap as the alignment tabs were incorrect - off shore piece. He installed another cap and that solved the issue. The hole in the cap might tell you something IF anything is not right within the cap or cap misalignment. You can also read this article about the rotor lengths which were found different creating too wide of a gap between rotor tip and cap electrodes.









Technical - Distributor Rotor Tip to Terminal Clearance?


Is there a standard gap measurement inside the distributor, between the rotor tip and the cap terminals? Everybody seems to spend a lot of time...




www.jalopyjournal.com


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

RMTZ67 said:


> Might be a good idea to get a piston stop altho it shouldn't be necessary, just to know exactly where your TDC is with your damper marks. Is it a new or old factory damper?


OEM old TDC.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Wow, I'm sharing your frustrations on this one. Put the old distributor back in at this point to rule out you got a damaged/bad "new" distributor. Make sure you have good grounding between the engine/firewall and engine/frame. We have had past members have issues with the grounding of the distributor to the block right at the distributor which is odd, and poor grounding from the block to body - which was fixed using a battery cable. You can get paint/corrosion under the ground attachment or within the cable itself. Just one more thing to check.
> 
> So I would put the engine back to where it at least ran. Re-install the old distributor.
> 
> ...


It's only a Proform distributor, but I've had great luck with their products, and it is sparking at every plug. Oddly enough, when I started the job, the body to engine ground strap was broken, and I fixed it. So when the car was running, there was no engine to body ground... As per my conv with OMT, I did loosen all of the valves, and then I checked TDC at least four times; Turn to mark, and as I continue to turn, the exhaust valve opens immediately. Pull the cap and rotor is pointing at my number one.

Isnt that TDC?

I will say that now it finally turns over perfectly, but it just won't start. I have the choke held open. Lots of popping through the carp, so it's definitely sparking.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

BTW... The original distributor, coil, and wires were all pathetic, so I'd prefer to not dump any money into parts that I'm not going to use, unless absolutely necesaary. I just got the car Tuesday, and I already have several thousand into it... So if at all possible, I'd like to exhaust all other possibilities first. But now... Looking at this pic, I don't think I should be on TDC right before the ex valve opens...


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Im over thinking the hell out of this and I know that it's simple.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

You may be 180 out..from where your dizzy is......roll the crank around to the timing mark again ......and then Re drop dizzy at number 1 and retry.....


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Man... You guys would be so proud of me. I cleaned the paint off my body ground, pulled the dizzy, turned the oil pump with a screw driver so that #1 would be on the firewall, reran the wires, turned it over (and after shocking my ass off a few times) it started right up. Glad that I stuck with it. So... 1.5 ratio, stainless PRW rollers and poly's are on the way... Hopefully I can find a VC to clear them, yet still sneak past the booster.

Oil wasn't shooting out all over, but I only ran it for a minute.

Should I time it like the vette? On that, I pulled the advance springs and revved it until it bottomed out at about 32 degrees... Which was around 12 degrees on the balancer mark.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

So... if anyone ever finds themselves unfortunate enough to be in Jersey, free welding!


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

armyadarkness said:


> Man... You guys would be so proud of me. I cleaned the paint off my body ground, pulled the dizzy, turned the oil pump with a screw driver so that #1 would be on the firewall, reran the wires, turned it over (and after shocking my ass off a few times) it started right up. Glad that I stuck with it. So... 1.5 ratio, stainless PRW rollers and poly's are on the way... Hopefully I can find a VC to clear them, yet still sneak past the booster.
> 
> Oil wasn't shooting out all over, but I only ran it for a minute.
> 
> Should I time it like the vette? On that, I pulled the advance springs and revved it until it bottomed out at about 32 degrees... Which was around 12 degrees on the balancer mark.



Congratulations! Your Corvette process will work, but I prefer to mark my balancer and do it with a timing light. If you've got a mark at 6 degrees, then just duplicate it several times. In my case my front cover has a mark for 12 degrees. This way I get increments of 6 degrees up to 42. Then I rev the engine until it quits advancing and measure the timing. For your car I would start at 36 - as long as it doesn't ping! Once you've done that you can let it idle and measure the timing. If it's stable then you can measure it at idle from then on. On Pontiac 's the distributors usually have about 12 degrees (24 at the crank), so your initial would be 12.

Then whenever I have the balancer off I use a hack saw to cut the marks in so I can see them better. Then I put yellow paint into the marks. I'll try to get a picture of it some time. If I have the short block apart then I use the degree wheel to double check all of the marks on the balancer.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

BTW, if you can't get valve covers to clear the rockers and the brake booster you can fabricate one. You are a welder!


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

New topic - adjusting the lifters. My engines have always squirted oil all over the place. At first I tried the rocker clips to block the squirt, but the oil still over flowed the lip of the head. So I rework a valve cover. At first I just cut one in half and bolted it on. But some of my rocker nuts were so long there was still a bit of a problem, so I took another valve cover and drilled holes in the center larger enough to gain access to the nuts with a socket. This one worked perfectly. I'll try to find time to get some pictures.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> Congratulations! Your Corvette process will work, but I prefer to mark my balancer and do it with a timing light. If you've got a mark at 6 degrees, then just duplicate it several times. In my case my front cover has a mark for 12 degrees. This way I get increments of 6 degrees up to 42. Then I rev the engine until it quits advancing and measure the timing. For your car I would start at 36 - as long as it doesn't ping! Once you've done that you can let it idle and measure the timing. If it's stable then you can measure it at idle from then on. On Pontiac 's the distributors usually have about 12 degrees (24 at the crank), so your initial would be 12.
> 
> Then whenever I have the balancer off I use a hack saw to cut the marks in so I can see them better. Then I put yellow paint into the marks. I'll try to get a picture of it some time. If I have the short block apart then I use the degree wheel to double check all of the marks on the balancer.


My timing light is adjustable, so I'll set it for 36, disconnect the springs, set it, put it back together, and check it at idle.

As for fabricating valve covers... I have a very strict "No reinventing the wheel" policy! If I can buy them, I will... If not, then? I guess I have to remove the booster each time I adjust. P.U!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> New topic - adjusting the lifters. My engines have always squirted oil all over the place. At first I tried the rocker clips to block the squirt, but the oil still over flowed the lip of the head. So I rework a valve cover. At first I just cut one in half and bolted it on. But some of my rocker nuts were so long there was still a bit of a problem, so I took another valve cover and drilled holes in the center larger enough to gain access to the nuts with a socket. This one worked perfectly. I'll try to find time to get some pictures.


My engine only ran a minute, but no oil shot out. Two days of not running, yet turning over, likely lost prime? Still oil in the rockers.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Good work Army!...you stayed with it.......now you are just tweaking it in......!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> Man... You guys would be so proud of me. I cleaned the paint off my body ground, pulled the dizzy, turned the oil pump with a screw driver so that #1 would be on the firewall, reran the wires, turned it over (and after shocking my ass off a few times) it started right up. Glad that I stuck with it. So... 1.5 ratio, stainless PRW rollers and poly's are on the way... Hopefully I can find a VC to clear them, yet still sneak past the booster.
> 
> Oil wasn't shooting out all over, but I only ran it for a minute.
> 
> Should I time it like the vette? On that, I pulled the advance springs and revved it until it bottomed out at about 32 degrees... Which was around 12 degrees on the balancer mark.


Hmmmmm. I think someone mentioned that one to you earlier? 

Lesson learned, do one adjustment/change at a time and check your work. Then go to the next adjustment/change and test it. Too many adjustments/changes at once make it far more difficult to isolate any problem that crops up because you don't know what adjustment/change caused the issue. 

I'll take some of that free welding.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

Here is a picture of what I did to my balancer (technically a damper). I also showed the engine overall (not cleaned).


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

This post shows the two valve covers I modified to adjust the lifters. If I remember right, the one with holes in it was required for the racecar, which now has shaft rockers.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

While I was at it, I took pictures of the tool boxes with easy access. I didn’t open the drawers to show the 30+ quarter inch socket sets. Nothing professional, I’m just a hobbiest. I also took a picture of the poster of the racecar.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Hmmmmm. I think someone mentioned that one to you earlier?
> 
> Lesson learned, do one adjustment/change at a time and check your work. Then go to the next adjustment/change and test it. Too many adjustments/changes at once make it far more difficult to isolate any problem that crops up because you don't know what adjustment/change caused the issue.
> 
> I'll take some of that free welding.


Mig, Tig, Stainless, Aluminum, CNC Plasma cutting, Metal Art, and guitars are my specialties. And yes, thanks for all of the advice! Welding anytime!

This week is universals, diff inspection/ maint/ rebuild, New coils, bilsteins, Global West upper and lower, front and back, Cherry Bomb Salutes, AEM air fuel gauge, and then the rockers should be here.

Now I need to find valve covers that clear rollers, without getting jammed under the booster


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> Here is a picture of what I did to my balancer (technically a damper). I also showed the engine overall (not cleaned).
> View attachment 139014
> View attachment 139015


I like what you did with the damper. Mine would be tough to do unless I pulled it, because it's much smaller than the pulleys, so it's buried. The engine builder did an ultra crap paint job, so I'm going to soda blast it and try to touch it up. Also looking to pull the intake and block the exhaust crossover. Trying to time it all together.

Glad to see an MSD box on your car. My deceased Pontiac brother always swore by them, but the Vette guys hate them. I want one! Do they eliminate the HEI module?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> This post shows the two valve covers I modified to adjust the lifters. If I remember right, the one with holes in it was required for the racecar, which now has shaft rockers.
> View attachment 139016
> View attachment 139017


Still not sure what the procedure should be for the valves. I thought that my adjustment hurt, but maybe it was just the dizzy being out. My procedure worked on the vette,,, maybe now that the egine is running, it'll go smoother.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

They do not eliminate the HEI, but they control the spark. I do not recommend blocking the exhaust crossover. It’s too hard to do it right, and it makes it very temperamental in cold air.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> They do not eliminate the HEI, but they control the spark. I do not recommend blocking the exhaust crossover. It’s too hard to do it right, and it makes it very temperamental in cold air.


Wow! The previous owner had the carb boiling issues and he got stranded... I didn't block it on my old GTO, but I didnt want issues. Ive welded them shut for a few people. The current carb is a Quick Fuel 750 DP with an electric choke, but as you know, I'll likely go to an Edelbrock 800 with an electric choke... They dont have Holley type fuel bowl, so maybe it'll fix the hot start?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> Wow! The previous owner had the carb boiling issues and he got stranded... I didn't block it on my old GTO, but I didnt want issues. Ive welded them shut for a few people. The current carb is a Quick Fuel 750 DP with an electric choke, but as you know, I'll likely go to an Edelbrock 800 with an electric choke... They dont have Holley type fuel bowl, so maybe it'll fix the hot start?


A number of things can be done to help fight off carb boiling, but you may still experience fuel evaporation when you park the car and it sits for any length of time.

Having a 1/4" return line back to the gas tank can help, as can an electric fuel pump back at the tank. If you want to go high tech, as it seems you are, then maybe an in-tank electric fuel pump, return line, and fuel pressure regulator. The AVS2 only wants 5-5.5 lbs of fuel pressure according to the instructions.

I am going with a big 160GPH holley electric pusher fuel pump (external) that is more than I probably need. The fuel pump runs constant and requires a specific return line size (I think 3/8") per their recommendations - to keep the pump from over working/heating I think. I then have a fuel regulator for a dual inlet Holley hooking 1 each outlet to each of my carbs.

Keep in mind that the AVS2 has the fuel inlet on the passenger side, not the driver side as factory has it. So I will run my fuel line down the passenger side frame rail and up the back on the firewall and then too my carb. This should minimize the heat the line will get as compared to the factory line which runs along the hot engine.

So if you do any upgrades on your fuel system, do the research and think it out carefully and this may minimize or eliminate any boil over issues or hot starting. Fuel may still evaporate, but that is really expected. Just when ready to drive, hit the electric fuel pump on and give it a couple seconds to fill the bowls and you should be good to go.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> A number of things can be done to help fight off carb boiling, but you may still experience fuel evaporation when you park the car and it sits for any length of time.
> 
> Having a 1/4" return line back to the gas tank can help, as can an electric fuel pump back at the tank. If you want to go high tech, as it seems you are, then maybe an in-tank electric fuel pump, return line, and fuel pressure regulator. The AVS2 only wants 5-5.5 lbs of fuel pressure according to the instructions.
> 
> ...


Thanks Jim. As I mentioned before, I'm a big AVS2 fan. When I use them, I use a Holley regulator with a gauge, and the Edelbrock fuel line kit as well, with 6an fittings. Since this engine has a new Quick Fuel 750 on it, which I don't like, I was going to skip the AVS2 and just run it... However, I suspect that this Quick Fuel carb is evil.

I finally got to work on the car tonight and tune it with the new distributor. I set the total timing at 34 and the car idles fairly well, but periodically, it pops out the exhaust and I can hear it igniting (Poof). Revving it up usually revs up okay, but it often will backfire through the carb and tailpipe, too. It idles fine until you put it in gear, and then it shakes the wheels off the thing. I checked the plugs and they're black!

Replaced the plugs, checked all of the wires... idles okay (but with faint occasional pops) until its in gear... and it has zero power. The previous owner said that it loaded up a lot... I assumed that was because the old dist was so bad and the wires were bad. Now it idles high, even with the idle screw removed, so it obviously has a vacuum leak, but it's also obviously rich as Hell. 

Even though the Quick Fuel has power valve protection, should I assume that it's blown? The idle mixture screws dont seem to do jack.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

BTW, I can turn the idles mixtures all of the way in and it still runs


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Lemans guy said:


> On a new distributor make sure the rotor button is making strong contact with the cap, sometimes you have to gently,gently bend up the tip on the rotor for a strong contact.
> 
> Some brands have a little paper gauge to make sure that you get the rotor contact in the correct spot,...it will drive you crazy trying other things as this is almost invisible. Verify your HEI connector wires are on right and not loose or backed out, or a prong in the new cap is not bent.......and whenever doing this...a fully charged battery is a must, it wears down as you keep trying to crank and you think it is enough, but it is not.
> 
> ...


Any suggestions for the carb back fires?


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

If you can’t dial in the idle easy, you can change the idle air bleeds on the quick fuel..

I use a QFT 780 VS Black Diamond coating.......you can adjust them more than other carbs as you know


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Lemans guy said:


> If you can’t dial in the idle easy, you can change the idle air bleeds on the quick fuel..
> 
> I use a QFT 780 VS Black Diamond coating.......you can adjust them more than other carbs as you know


Dialing in the idle is the least of the issues at this point. Any attempt to rev it, causes a backfire through the carb, and it has no power out on the road. It just bogs down. I can turn the idle mixtures in all of the way and it still runs. While it's idling, it's seems okay, but if you stand at the tailpipe, you'll hear occasional "poof" ignitions in there. Sounds like a mortar launch! Then, if you put it in gear the car shakes violently.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Sounds way rich, gas pouring in to exhaust, pooling gas.....

so things that make it rich to start, too much fuel pressure, too high float settings, needles and seats stuck open, too small air filters, blocked air filters, fast idle cam setting causing throttle plate not to shut,....blown power valve, probably not, check the umbrella valve or ball check valve that is part of the accelerator pump for leaking as well.

switching carbs for a test is an easy way because you can eliminate many systems and see if it is still that way.

you sound sure the distributor and timing are ok, it should run fine at 34 degrees, what is the base on that?...is your throttle linkage OK does it work smoothly by hand,...you said you may have a Bigg vacumn leak, that can make it doggy as well.....

yes the intake exhaust crossover was designed by Pontiac engineers to help carb heating and to balance exhaust pulses, so it acts similarly to an H pipe....hot Rodgers block it to help eliminate fuel boiling issues...but it was open originally....

if you leave it open you will need phenolic spacer and heat shielding etc, because it does make more heat


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Lemans guy said:


> Sounds way rich, gas pouring in to exhaust, pooling gas.....
> 
> so things that make it rich to start, too much fuel pressure, too high float settings, needles and seats stuck open, too small air filters, blocked air filters, fast idle cam setting causing throttle plate not to shut,....blown power valve, probably not, check the umbrella valve or ball check valve that is part of the accelerator pump for leaking as well.
> 
> ...


It's filthy rich! I love the idea of Holley carbs, but I hate the reality. A few people claim that blocking the vent will tell you if you have a blown power valve, however they only list "dies right away" and "dies after a bit". Mine never dies at all. Also looks like to PO used sealant on the carb gasket, so lord knows where that went!

As for the dizzy, I set it with an adjustable TL to 12-16 and it was at zero. When I advance the timing, the mark advances. I then set the light to 34 and revved it up and it pegged out at 34-36, so I'll assume it's good.

My original GTO didnt have a blocked crossover and I had no issues. This car is open as well, and the PO got stuck with it a few times. I was going to block it, but I'll try the Edelbrock first and see what it does.

I just wrapped up Global West rear CA's, UMI springs, and Bilsteins on the rear. Love GW! I was going to do the front tomorrow, but the headers are blocking upper CA removal.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

BTW... PO installed a heat shield and the plates were binding, but I removed it.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> Dialing in the idle is the least of the issues at this point. Any attempt to rev it, causes a backfire through the carb, and it has no power out on the road. It just bogs down. I can turn the idle mixtures in all of the way and it still runs. While it's idling, it's seems okay, but if you stand at the tailpipe, you'll hear occasional "poof" ignitions in there. Sounds like a mortar launch! Then, if you put it in gear the car shakes violently.


Incorrectly adjusted valves will do the same thing - pop, backfire, etc..

Incorrect timing can cause the same thing. Don't go by the harmonic balancer if original - the outer inertia ring can slip. Sometimes it is better to time it by ear to get a good base timing, then go from there.

Steady voltage to the distributor? Maybe a weak voltage spike/fluctuation? How is the power wire hooked up to your distributor? Alternator putting out 14 volts? Battery voltage low?

Headers over-scavenging the air/fuel mixture depending on what cam you have can cause popping/backfiring.

Put a vacuum gauge on the engine and see what your reading is or if the needle bounces all over.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> d
> Incorrectly adjusted valves will do the same thing - pop, backfire, etc..
> 
> Incorrect timing can cause the same thing. Don't go by the harmonic balancer if original - the outer inertia ring can slip. Sometimes it is better to time it by ear to get a good base timing, then go from there.
> ...


Dist is hooked stright to battery now, and it's a new delco battery, fully charged. I've adjusted the valves to the point of insanity, using my tried and true methods, so I can't see that being it. This time, I left the push rods all just to the point of no rotation.

If I turn in the mixture screws and remove the idle screw, the carb still runs at high idle, so I'm assuming that it's got it's own air and fuel supply... hopefully a leaking base gasket and blown PV. Edelbrock 800 coming tomorrow.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Deleted my reply as it did not apply to roller lifters. My bad.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> No rotation of the pushrods is going the wrong way - too tight and can mean your lifters are no longer spinning on the cam and will wipe out a lobe. It can also mean the valves are too tight and not closing fully.
> 
> Back off each rocker with the engine warm & running until you hear the clicking of the lifter. Then turn the rocker arm nut in just enought to remove the clicking sound. Wait about 10-15 seconds for the lifter to pump down and normalize. If it starts clicking again, repeat. Once the clicking has stopped, turn the rocker arm nut 1/4 turn. If you had poly locks, you would cinche down on the allen screw. Then it is done. Go on to the next valve and do each like this. The pushrods should be rotating even if slowly. Sometimes raising the revs will get them spinning faster.


I tried doing it that way and I had no success. I simply couldn't hear the clicking and rattling unless I made them so loose that they spun. This is a roller cam and lifters, so I don't know if that has anything to do with it. I was told they are much noisier. In any event, I am putting roller rockers on there so is the procedure going to be the same


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

Adjust them your "tried and true" way, but make sure you can back them off until they make noise. The noise won't be like a flat tappet lifter, but you will still hear it. If you can't back off far enough then you need taller rocker studs.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> I tried doing it that way and I had no success. I simply couldn't hear the clicking and rattling unless I made them so loose that they spun. This is a roller cam and lifters, so I don't know if that has anything to do with it. I was told they are much noisier. In any event, I am putting roller rockers on there so is the procedure going to be the same



OK, my bad. My advice on the adjustment is for a flat tappet cam, not a roller cam - so pushrods won't spin as roller lifters had better not be spinning! LOL So follow *OMT'*s advice as he uses the roller cams.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

OK, this post has gone all over the place so I had to go back to the beginning and re-read.

I am confused on the cam. I understand it is a roller - OK. But, I am seeing 2 different cams? The one the engine builder has listed as Bullet S#86437 (Post #9) and you mentioned Bullet cam part no. 507000 (Post #1).

I could not find online Bullet cam S#86437. I did find Bullet cam 507000 over at the PY forum - "Ground in 2010. 4/7 swap. Dur at .05 is 224 226. Gross lift .551 and .555. Dur at .006 is 284 277. Separation 112 for degreeing to 109. Grind No. PO 284/277-12HR. *Part No. 507000*. Designed by a member of this forum."

You provided a spec for the 86437 cam (?) as 222/230, 353/353, 530/530. 

No expert on Bullet cams or their specs or part numbers. The first may indeed be a custom grind with the 4/7 swap per the member on PY who posted this and the part number might be the stock number for the cam blank and then it was ground to spec? The second cam S#86437 indicates "S" as symetrical lobes which matches with the specs you provided.

Looking up the roller lifters, the part number shows them to be Morel retrofit for Pontiac. Butler lists them -
Product Description LRR5884
Application: Pontiac V8 265 - 455
Diameter: .842"
Weight: 313g
Seat Height: 2.71"
Quantity: 16
*I added this* - 6,500 RPM capability with .120" plunger travel.

Pontiac Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Lifters require an aftermarket valley pan. Will hit most factory valley pans. See TPP-041S.
Oil band location known to be slightly too low on a select few Pontiac block casting numbers.

So the above should help with ID'ing what you have depending on the cam you know you have. The lifter plunger travel might be of help in setting the lash adjustment. Here is the Morel page detailing how to set your lash adjustment down near the bottom of the page. This should get the lifters adjusted up.






Morel Hydraulic Roller Lifter Adjustment Procedure


Click here to learn all about morel hydraulic roller lifter adjustment procedure.




golenengineservice.com





*The Carb* - The build specs show a Quick Fuel SS-750 which you said you have - I would not think it to be bad, but if it has been sitting, maybe something has gotten plugged up causing it to run rich. If Quick Fuel, it seems to have a number of adjustment you can make to dial it in. Might just need a rebuild for now? I am not a Holley guy, but the adjustability of the QFT carb would seem it to be something you could play with and dial it in. QFT SS-750 specs - •Billet dual metering blocks & throttle bodies for improved durability •Changeable idle, high-speed air bleeds & power valve restrictions •Dual inlet fuel bowls with dual sight glass windows for easy float adjustment •4-Corner idle for precise idle and smooth transition •Fully-adjustable electric choke with easy one wire hookup •Race-ready with notched secondary floats and jet extensions •Polished or Black Diamond™ finish available (some models)

But, I also see you have the AVS on the way.

*The Distributor* - The distributor was (oem) and the build sheet says it was converted to Pertronix electronic. Depending on when, it seems the earlier conversions were prone to failure. It had to be wired to a 12V source although early versions said you could use the factory resistor wire used on the points. They also burned up if you left the key "on" with the engine not running, like listening to the radio. You installed a new distributor, so that potential problem is gone.

*Timing *- "As for the dizzy, I set it with an adjustable TL to 12-16 and it was at zero. When I advance the timing, the mark advances. I then set the light to 34 and revved it up and it pegged out at 34-36, so I'll assume it's good."

That looks good, but with the vacuum advance hooked up, it may improve things and the engine may wake up. It will advance your initial timing at idle which the engine may respond well to. With the vacuum advance hooked up, 20-22 degrees on the balancer is about where you want it. The "670" heads are closed chamber heads and seem to like a little more advance than the later 1968 and up open chambers. So the cam may respond better with an initial (no vacuum advance) setting of 12 degrees, then connect the vacuum advance to port vacuum and it will jump up to the 20-22 degree range.

Fix any vacuum leaks and make sure your PCV valve is hooked up. Do you have the stock valley pan with the PCV valve hole/grommet or does the engine have a custom aftermarket valley pan without the PCV provision?

You also want breathers on the valve covers or you can develop a lot of internal engine pressure and push oil out the dipstick or blow out gaskets/seals. 

Keep plugging along, you'll get it.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

We talked about cams with 4/7 swaps. If you haven’t tried it you should try swapping the number 4 and number 7 plug wires and see what happens.


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## Montreux (Mar 8, 2009)

If you still have the ‘67 intake manifold, blocking the exhaust crossover is a piece of cake! 67 has an open channel under the carburetor (and requires a metal plate under the carb). Where the channel turns down into the manifold, the port is almost a perfect size for a 1/8” pipe plug. You may not even need to drill before tapping. A little JB Weld or red RTV on the threads, and you’re done.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Also, with the flat top pistons and the "670" heads you'll have a high compression, most likely 10.5 -10.75 unless there was any machine work done to the piston tops to dish them - but am assuming not, just stock flat top configuration. So you will want to be using a high octane gas or octane booster. Pump gas most likely won't work and you will get detonation (pinging) which can damage the engine.


With a high compression, many will recommend 95-100 octane depending on cam and timing. I suspect you already know this and use high octane gas in your Corvette as well.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

[QUOTE="PontiacJim, post: 908362, member: 21985"
Also, with the flat top pistons and the "670" heads you'll have a high compression, most likely 10.5 -10.75 unless there was any machine work done to the piston tops to dish them - but am assuming not, just stock flat top configuration. So you will want to be using a high octane gas or octane booster. Pump gas most likely won't work and you will get detonation (pinging) which can damage the engine.


With a high compression, many will recommend 95-100 octane depending on cam and timing. I suspect you already know this and use high octane gas in your Corvette as well.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for staying with me on this. Man, this car was so rigged! I have mosot of it straightened out now, but even with the new carb, it's popping the same. I did think that the cap was wired wrong when I took it apart, so as you and OMT have stated, it could be a 4/7, but there's no way to tell, since the cam manufacturer web site seems a bit archaic. Cam is definitely a 507000. Did you see that as a 4/7 swap? I have the tag for it right here.

The quick fuel was hanging up and the u joints were locked!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

FYI! It idles like a dream until you rev it, then it pops. When it does backfire, the rpms go way up.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> FYI! It idles like a dream until you rev it, then it pops. When it does backfire, the rpms go way up.
> 
> Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!


No problem with any of us throwing out ideas or things to help. You are the one who has to do all the work. LOL

Put a vacuum gauge on it. It is possible you may even have a burned valve, a weak valve spring (s), or simply a big vacuum leak coming from somewhere yet to be determined. The vacuum gauge can tell you a lot. 

I did not see specifically the 507000 cam in the Bullet specs, nor any cam at Bullet with the same specs as the one provided by the PY member - which is the place I dug that up using a search. So that is why it may have been a custom ground camshaft to meet the engine builders specs.

You could confirm the 4/7 swap by removing both valve covers, pulling your coil wire, and observe the engine cranking over following the firing order via the rocker arm movement.

I myself don't like the specs on that cam. A Pontiac cam uses a split pattern cam and that one is an asymetrical cam (lobe lift the same) which is more used for Chevy's or when you know you have a good flowing exhaust port that is at the ideal flow ratio to the intake.

It is always a pain to sort out another's issues on the engine because you don't know if the problem existed from day 1, or if somewhere along the way the owner changed something different from what the engine originally had coming from the builder, or if abuse has caused a problem.

Honestly, if me, I would be pulling the engine down. Remove the top end. This will allow you to look in at the cylinders/pistons and evaluate. Then I would take the heads down to a machine shop and let them re-build them - hot tank, magnaflux, and CC 1 combustion chamber to give you an idea of what that is and if any mods were done to the chambers or heads milled. Then install new/fresh springs (to match the cam's spec), lap the valves/seats providing there is no burnt valves or damages. They can check for valve guide wear as well.

While open, you can look at/inspect the cam & lifers. I would ditch the cam and get a different grind being careful of not going to aggressive with lift & duration that requires heavy spring pressures and can put a strain on the cast iron lifter bores as these were not designed for roller cams and they can break or crack. They sell an aftermarket lifter brace just for roller cam use to ad strength and rigidity to the lifter bores which do not have the cast brace between them. My understanding is that you can re-use roller lifters on a new cam.

If swapping out the cam, you can inspect the timing chain and gears for wear/slop. High spring pressures needed for roller cams can put additional stress on the chain and stretch/wear it out. So if it is good, keep it, if a little questionable, replace it. Also a good time to use a degree wheel to set-up the cam so you know the cam manufacturers specs have been followed.

Once you put it all back together, you can then check your rocker arm geometry to make sure you have the correct pushrod length for your engine. This is important if heads have been milled, valve length changes, block has been "zero decked" etc..

This is what I would do seeing you have made a number of changes and spent good money which still has you at square 1. You can keep trying things in the hopes of tracking the problem down and you may find it. You could go and tear into the engine as stated above, re-assemble, and find you still have the popping because it was an electrical gremlin.

So there are many tests that you can perform to confirm the engine's mechanical state, a bunch of electrical testing/sorting that can be done, or tear into the engine and do a little re-building of it and hope the problem is found. However you decide to go, all of us here will do our best to sort things out with you and get the car running right.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Well... The title of the thread say it all. Unfortunately, Bullet Cams website is super antiquated and tedious. Yes, the cam IS a 4/7 swap, but theres no mention of it anywhere, by either the builder or the manufacturer. So... a week of crazed frustration and unnecessary aggravation, during the holiday, for nothing. The Quickfuel is also fine! But I don't regret putting on the Edelbrock 800. Once I weld in the 02 sensor and run my AFR gauge, I can dial it in from idle to WOT... but as it sits, out of the box, it roasts the tires in every gear with the TH400... and full throttle use below 30 MPH will break em loose.

Switching the 4/7 wires cleraed it up. Too bad we had to "suspect" that might be the issue... vs "knowing" it. You put a sticker on your engine, warning that it has a K&N, not to throw it away. You'd think there'd be one for the firing order when it had been changed. Thanks everyone!

Can't wait to get the Global West stuff up front... it made a big difference in the rear. UMI spring kit and Bilstiens are awesome!


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

Hooray!!!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

After an entire summer of tuning and running the car endlessly, Ive decided that the under powered feeling of the car, has got to be due to the cam being so mild.

MSD Pro Billet dizzy, set to spec, bored 30 over 400, 670 heads, Dougs headers, Edelbrock intake, dual 2.5 exhaust with Flowmasters, 800 CFM carb, tuned to spec, 336 gears, TH400.

The car easily spins both tires, chirps 2nd and 3rd, too, but it's just not the brute that it should be.

Is my cam too mild?


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