# Please help me spend my money



## probe1957 (Nov 3, 2007)

I have been lurking around these parts for a few days now and wanted to ask you good people for some advice.

The wife and I recently bought a '04 GTO with auto trans. 18,000 miles on the clock. Completely stock except for the '05 style hood she had put on it. I wouldn't have done that but hey, whatever floats your boat, babe.  

I know you guys will consider this blasphemy but...we think the car is fast enough as is. Frankly, I doubt either of us are good enough drivers, at 50+ years old, to take advantage of any more performance capability. Maybe I can be persuaded to reconsider but, for now, that is the way I see it.

I am thinking about, and am asking your advice and opinions on, doing something with the exhaust. Frankly, I want more noise. First, is this even a good idea? Secondly, can you guys give me specific advice on what I should buy? Although I really like the looks of the dual exhaust on the '05-'06, if I go for that on mine, I will have to modify the rear bumper for the exhaust to exit on the right side. I am not sure I want to do that but again, am open to suggestions. I would prefer whatever I end up with to exit without modification to the bumper, unless something exists to do that with little effort.

And while I am asking stupid questions, what is a "tune?"

Thanks, guys.


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## 06pontiacgto (Nov 7, 2007)

Dude i see where you are going but if you do not want any more speed or any more noise i say keep it how it is the dual exhaust is a good idea if u have the money i drive a 2006 gto and that has the dual exhaust and is no louder then a regular exhaust.
Tune if you heard tune who ever said it was probaly talking about a tune up or makeing the car faster/better if this helps here are some sites to look at dual exhaust v8 engines etc.....
Feedback
http://www.ls2gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196698

Pricing
http://marylandspeed.com/pontiac-gto...e-c-58_59.html


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## probe1957 (Nov 3, 2007)

I do want more noise. I do not, necessarily, want more speed. Sorry for not being clear and I really appreciate your response. I will check your links.


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## 06pontiacgto (Nov 7, 2007)

o my bad i would check out bigger dual exhaust systems then because it really make your car sound alot faster then it really is


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Hey Bill.....
I am with you in the car having enough Guts and speed. For me personally I do not plan on modding it out for more gains. Others though, want as much as possible. It's all a personal choice. 

As far as exhaust modification. You can get your car louder without replacing your exhaust system. There are different mufflers out there that will give you the tone you seek. If you want to go with the 05-06 look, the replacement of your rear fascia and upgrading your duel duel single exit will have to be upgraded to duel duel with separate exits. There are many different opinions on here as to which system to go with. Flowmasters seem to be a real popular exhaust. If you are serious on upgrading your sound, your best bet would be to listen to some other GTO owners cars that went the route you want to go. I have heard some awesome sounding goats. Skys the limit. 

I have seen 04' rear fascias modified to accept true duel duel exits. The ones I have seen look nice. 

Tuning out would be installing gains for your engine and getting the max out of it. It can get costly but it's all in what you are after.


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## Tacmedic (Feb 24, 2006)

*I would...*

go with a Flowmaster Cat-back system. They should make one for the '04 that retains the stock bumber and single sided system. Someone that has purchased one will chime in with a link to a good retailer. If they sell the same type of system for the GTO as other cars, you should be able to get one to suit your taste, (I don't know how much louder you want it)

There are other systems that you may like better, (Magnaflow etc..). I just love the Flowmaster sound as it is a chaimbered system as apposed to a, "Glass pack" type.

Good luck and enjoy:cheers


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## Tacmedic (Feb 24, 2006)

GTO JUDGE said:


> Hey Bill.....
> I am with you in the car having enough Guts and speed. For me personally I do not plan on modding it out for more gains. Others though, want as much as possible. It's all a personal choice.
> 
> As far as exhaust modification. You can get your car louder without replacing your exhaust system. There are different mufflers out there that will give you the tone you seek. If you want to go with the 05-06 look, the replacement of your rear fascia and upgrading your duel duel single exit will have to be upgraded to duel duel with separate exits. There are many different opinions on here as to which system to go with. Flowmasters seem to be a real popular exhaust. If you are serious on upgrading your sound, your best bet would be to listen to some other GTO owners cars that went the route you want to go. I have heard some awesome sounding goats. Skys the limit.
> ...


Judge, you type faster than I do.


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## probe1957 (Nov 3, 2007)

Cool. Lots of responses and quick too.

So, is it your guys opinion that I should NOT go with these long tube headers everyone seems to rave about?


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## 06pontiacgto (Nov 7, 2007)

i would not go with them but it is your car what ever you want on there man.


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## Tacmedic (Feb 24, 2006)

probe1957 said:


> Cool. Lots of responses and quick too.
> 
> So, is it your guys opinion that I should NOT go with these long tube headers everyone seems to rave about?


If you are happy with the power, I wouldn't. You can get the sound you want for much less money with a cat-back and you won't have to retune.


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## 06pontiacgto (Nov 7, 2007)

Tacmedic said:


> If you are happy with the power, I wouldn't. You can get the sound you want for much less money with a cat-back and you won't have to retune.


ya :agree if u are happy with what you got dont blow it with that it will just make it faster


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Tacmedic said:


> Judge, you type faster than I do.


I took typing in Jr. High..... For all you youngins.... Junior High is now known as Middle School  

Of all the things in school for me to retain, it was typing.... Who would have known in 1972 I'd be applying it now. Computers back then were as big as houses.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

If your on a buget or want to save money you can just replace your mufflers without changing the whole cat-back. Also our exhaust have resonators, located on the mid-pipes behind the cats, you can remove them or keep them. The resonators do not restrict flow, they are flow through and just there for sound. I never heard a stock GTO without them so I can't tell you what the sound differance will be.


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## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

Hear a couple Kooks LT set ups on the following links...

With Borla cat back
http://www.jusspress.com/day.php?userid=28599&currentDate=20050923&currentTime=164019

Kooks, head to tips
http://www.fquick.com/videos/viewvideo.php?id=3226

This past weekend during an all late model GTO event, 2 cars were running with wide open exhaust systems... I wasn't impressed by the sound, like I am with the complete Kooks set up.

Red.


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## sniper.x611 (Jan 30, 2007)

You could have the suspension upgraded.. help with ride cornering etc.. pretty much performance, but it would improve the ride at "faster" speeds. I believe that everyone you ask will say pedders for suspension on this car.

If you going for sound I LOVE glasspacks, such an oldschool tone. Maybe to old school my dad told me glasspacks where for "ricer" cars back in the day. but maybe you like the sound. 

I think a tune is must. If you're looking to blow money start there. It'll help with gas mileage, or hurt it, depending on the tune, and is almost mandatory if you get exhaust headers for sound.

Just a few thoughts,
Tim


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## noz34me (Dec 15, 2005)

Congrats on your purchase. My wife and I are in our 50's as well, and we're both happy with the power these cars have stock. (In fact, it scares my wife) I do have the '05 model with 50 more ponies, but 350 or 400 HP is still a lot.

Enjoy the car. Interior is the most comfortable car we own. 

As far as noise, I do remember reading an article that GM actually tuned the exhaust on the '04 models to match what a vintage GTO sounded like, so what you have is pretty good.

I rarely carry someone in the back seat, but I've gotten comments that it's "pretty loud" back there, and I'm completely stock. I will say that for a car with this much muscle, I do prefer the split dual exhaust on the '05/'06 models.


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## probe1957 (Nov 3, 2007)

noz34me said:


> I will say that for a car with this much muscle, I do prefer the split dual exhaust on the '05/'06 models.


I do too. I am one of those guys who is going to (apparently) buy an '04 then try to make it look like an '05+.

Thanks to all for your comments.


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*More HP*

You are NEVER too old to seek more HP. If your car is bone stock , go with a Cold Air Intake, Headers and exhaust. A completly stock car suffers from HP robbing Restriction. free up some of that restriction and you will have a killer car. DAM, I am 58 and my car has a Big Cam, Cold Air intake, LT headers and Full exhaust, 3600 Stall torque converter, Tran's cooler. and it goes in for larger injecters and better itake manifold in the next few days. Just waiting for the guys at my shop to settle in after a vacation and a trip to the S.E.M.A show.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

I don't see how being in your 50's limits your driving ability... And at 3800 lbs, these porkers aren't even close to being squirrely or hard-to-handle under full-throttle... They're fairly planted and idiot-proof to drive, and even with my '06 with 400hp, it feels as though I could add another 100hp and the car would still hold a straight-line with no problems.... 

I don't know how much past experience you've had with performance cars, but the basic rule-of-thumb is.... No matter HOW fast the car is when you get it... 5-7 months later you'll be so used to it you'll start getting a tad bored, and start to feel that it's a tad slow... It's just human-nature, once you're accustomed to a car, it feels every-day-normal and you start to yawn, and wonder how you ever got by with less power.

My rule of thumb is that the point at which you reach a level of power and performance that will "not get old..", is when you can at-will overtake the traction afforded by your chassis/tire setup, when the car requires attention and possibly some counter-steering just to hold it in a lane in 2nd and possibly 3rd gear (my S351 in real cold weather will haze the 295-18 Michelin Pilots at 70mph in 3rd...  ) That's the point where you can confidently say, "that's cool, that's enough, I'll never tire of that..."..  Besides, after that, you're adding pointless power, power that you TRULY "have no use for"..

Don't go with long-tube headers as your "only" mod, it'll make your low-end torque soggier (make the car feel LESS quick for normal driving). As others have suggested, if you want more growl, just do a cat-back system or performance muffler..

If you would've been fine with the plain hood, why worry about 05-06-ish duals? I think it's fine as-is... And I, for one, have never seen a modified rear-facia that didn't look like a hack-job to me...

The 2004's are the true "sleepers" in aesthetics, which in alot of ways, is the truest reproduction of what the ORIGINAL 1964 GTO was all about. Furthermore, as others said, original 1964-1972 GTO's were nice quiet runners from the standpoint of exhaust, enough rumble to sound beautiful, but not hokey or attention-starved...

I don't believe in loud exhaust unless it's there for a reason, i.e. performance... Loud for the sake of loud is the very reason every *******'s pathetically slow mud-truck and construction-truck sounds like it's running on open-headers driving through town here in middle-Florida. Getting louder, without being stronger, is like being a skinny guy at a bar, getting louder and more obnoxious with every beer, but in the end, still not able to fight his way out of a wet paper sack... just drunk and imagining he's the baddest man in town.

If you want louder, make it a touch louder. Don't be guilty of the accusation, "all show, no go" or "all bark, no bite"...

Of course, these are all opinions. Do what makes you happy, and enjoy your new ride!


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*More HP*



69bossnine said:


> I don't see how being in your 50's limits your driving ability... And at 3800 lbs, these porkers aren't even close to being squirrely or hard-to-handle under full-throttle... They're fairly planted and idiot-proof to drive, and even with my '06 with 400hp, it feels as though I could add another 100hp and the car would still hold a straight-line with no problems....
> 
> I don't know how much past experience you've had with performance cars, but the basic rule-of-thumb is.... No matter HOW fast the car is when you get it... 5-7 months later you'll be so used to it you'll start getting a tad bored, and start to feel that it's a tad slow... It's just human-nature, once you're accustomed to a car, it feels every-day-normal and you start to yawn, and wonder how you ever got by with less power.
> 
> ...


I have a 05 with A/4 trans, even in stock condition this thing would NOT hold a straight line when hard on the gas, Now with the changes I have made, a straight line is just about impossible, Even from a stand still my car will get off course when it hits 3rd and 4th at full throttle. I will never be bored with mine. I think the people who get bored with their rides are the one who constantly run it hard. I get on mine only once in a while, The thrill is always there


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## probe1957 (Nov 3, 2007)

69bossnine said:


> I don't know how much past experience you've had with performance cars, but the basic rule-of-thumb is.... No matter HOW fast the car is when you get it... 5-7 months later you'll be so used to it you'll start getting a tad bored, and start to feel that it's a tad slow... It's just human-nature, once you're accustomed to a car, it feels every-day-normal and you start to yawn, and wonder how you ever got by with less power.


I think you, all of you actually, make some very good points. 69bossnine, last night, while the wife and I were enjoying half price margarita night at the local watering hole, she asked, "Why would we want the car to go any faster?" I just emailed her your entire post here as an answer to her question. THANK YOU!!!

Let me ask a follow up question, if I may.

Let's say I want 400-425 hp. Is that a reasonable goal? How would I get there?


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## MyOtherCar (Jun 23, 2007)

probe1957 said:


> I do too. I am one of those guys who is going to (apparently) buy an '04 then try to make it look like an '05+.
> 
> Thanks to all for your comments.


Hmmm, if you are going to purchase an '04 and then upgrade it asthetically to look like an '05, then I'd say, just go buy the '05. It'll cost you the same as the conversion and you'll have the LS2.

About the resonator, I just took mine out to see if there is any (or much) difference in the exhaust tone. Nope, not much! A little growl although on the highway at 60+, it sounds a little better. New mufflers are next!, probably Flowmasters. They seem to give one the best bang for the buck, errr, noise-wise that is. Probably a little more hp, but I'd think not noticeable to the driver.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

LOWET said:


> I have a 05 with A/4 trans, even in stock condition this thing would NOT hold a straight line when hard on the gas, Now with the changes I have made, a straight line is just about impossible, Even from a stand still my car will get off course when it hits 3rd and 4th at full throttle. I will never be bored with mine. I think the people who get bored with their rides are the one who constantly run it hard. I get on mine only once in a while, The thrill is always there



Well my '06 6M must've been equipped with some prototype-super-secret-NASA-developed-gummy-bear tires, because bone stock, and now with my cheesy K&N CAI, the thing is a teddy-bear to control from a roll in 1st-gear, all the way through, speed-shifting... Wheel-hops a bit between gears, but always stays straight, always maintains grip (relatively, the wheel-hop is just momentary and then it sticks like glue...)...

Maybe it's just a matter of perspective, my 60's muscle cars, while no faster, are absolute handfuls to keep straight and planted (especially on show-correct bias-ply's!!), and my S351 supercharged Saleen is an absolute squirrel... which is kinda what makes it so much fun!! It's like trying to walk a tiger down the street with a strand of yarn for a leash..

Nope, I've test driven several 6.0 A4's, and then bought my M6, and from what I'm accustomed to, these cars are sticky as hell, transfer weight to the rear wonderfully (as most IRS cars do), and are absolute cake-walks to drive fast.

Keep in mind that Florida roads (in general) are smooth, not-dusty (rain keeps them well washed of dust and oil), and asphalt.. Different areas of the country have different conditions, and road-construction materials..

I'm not saying my GTO isn't fast! I'm just saying that once the honeymoon is over, I'm already thinking of a bit more, the car and the chassis certainly seems ready for it... But then I balance that against refinement and every-day interests... I bought my GTO to use as my daily commuter, not as a weekend hot-rod.. Modifications that make hay at the track can often be tiresome and annoying on the street...

Twin-turbo setups are always awesome, as you retain all the quiet and civility, with absolutetly sick power on-tap..


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Probe, I've got no experience with the LS1... I would guess that your 400hp goal would most easily be obtained with a cat-back exhaust system, cold-air induction, and a cam-shaft swap with "tune", which means somebody going in and recalibrating your air-fuel ratios and timing in your PCM... You may have a good performance shop near you that's done enough LS1's that they can do the work in their sleep, you'll have to ask around. Or you can do it all yourself, just mail-order it all...

Or, MyOtherCar makes a valid point (although you're probably thinking "I just found and bought this car, do I want to go through the process again?), you could SERIOUSLY justify simply selling your '04 and finding a nice 05-06 LS2 car... I can tell you, the LS2 has so much more "snap" down low on the tach, at partial throttle, it's a much more entertaining car to drive out of the box... You'd have your dual exhaust, you'd have your 400hp, and you'd have a year-or-two-newer car (which is a tangible $$ value), for likely a $5K extra investment, give or take??? It's worth consideration...


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*spend money*



probe1957 said:


> I think you, all of you actually, make some very good points. 69bossnine, last night, while the wife and I were enjoying half price margarita night at the local watering hole, she asked, "Why would we want the car to go any faster?" I just emailed her your entire post here as an answer to her question. THANK YOU!!!
> 
> Let me ask a follow up question, if I may.
> 
> Let's say I want 400-425 hp. Is that a reasonable goal? How would I get there?


425 to 450 RWHP can be obtained, but plan on spending ALOT of cash to get there


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*spend cash*



69bossnine said:


> Probe, I've got no experience with the LS1... I would guess that your 400hp goal would most easily be obtained with a cat-back exhaust system, cold-air induction, and a cam-shaft swap with "tune", which means somebody going in and recalibrating your air-fuel ratios and timing in your PCM... You may have a good performance shop near you that's done enough LS1's that they can do the work in their sleep, you'll have to ask around. Or you can do it all yourself, just mail-order it all...
> 
> Or, MyOtherCar makes a valid point (although you're probably thinking "I just found and bought this car, do I want to go through the process again?), you could SERIOUSLY justify simply selling your '04 and finding a nice 05-06 LS2 car... I can tell you, the LS2 has so much more "snap" down low on the tach, at partial throttle, it's a much more entertaining car to drive out of the box... You'd have your dual exhaust, you'd have your 400hp, and you'd have a year-or-two-newer car (which is a tangible $$ value), for likely a $5K extra investment, give or take??? It's worth consideration...



Don't forget , the 400 HP is engine HP not RWHP, the stock 05 & 06 GTO's get about 335 to the rear wheels as the 04 gets about 305 to the rear. No matter how much HP your engine has you can expect about a 14 percent HP drop to the rear wheels.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

LOWET said:


> Don't forget , the 400 HP is engine HP not RWHP, the stock 05 & 06 GTO's get about 335 to the rear wheels as the 04 gets about 305 to the rear. No matter how much HP your engine has you can expect about a 14 percent HP drop to the rear wheels.



Probe never said anything about rear-wheel horsepower, I'm fairly certain that he was suggesting adding roughly 50-75hp SAE NET, apples-to-apples, i.e. going from 350 net to 400-425 net...

Regarding your math, driveline loss is typically more like 15-16%, which if you run 400hp through your calculator, lands smack-on the 335rwhp you cite for most stockers...


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