# Engine idle sound



## dquack (Oct 28, 2009)

Hi all, getting ready to ship the GTO to Germany soon and drove with the radio off today to listen to any weird sounds she might make before she ships. I was a little concerned with a very faint ticking sound from the engine. I know what a thrown rod sounds like and this is not it, but I am unsure of what is making the sound or if it is normal. One of the guys on here said the LS2 engine sounds like a sewing machine. I notice when I pull up to a curb I can hear it bouncing off the curb from underneath the car. Here are the mods that were done prior to me buying it.

Dynatech GTO SuperMaxx Header System, Cam (unsure what exact cam), Valvetrain Kit, L76 intake manifold kit, L92 Cylinder Heads

Here is a link to the youtube video I made of it. I would greatly appreciate any advice or help or words of wisdom you experts have to offer.






She was in the Pontiac dealer about a month ago for a idler arm and tensioner - after the repair the mechanic said all else was good. She was on the Dyno a few weeks back and the mechanic there said she sounded good but was his first GTO. My concern with being a GTO NooB I am not used to the sounds yet, and especially with prior mods on it. Thanks for the help.


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## dquack (Oct 28, 2009)

Had the car for a month now and put 3,000 miles on it. She has been driven to PA, NJ, and NC plus daily drives to work and back to the hotel. So the slight tapping had me concerned so I looked under the hood and my oil was low. Went to Walmart and bought 2 quarts and filled her back up. She doesn't smoke, engine compartment is spotless, and no oil tracks or drips down the underbody so what gives? I did take it to Jiffy Lube and the whiz kids there over filled it by about a quart so they drained a quart out, but in all of my bliss I did not check it after that to see if they drained too much out. Right now I am not sure what could be causing this or if it is even as bad as I think. Just very poor timing with it going to Germany and being around the euro and the horrible exchange rate.


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## 2004americanmuscle (Jul 24, 2009)

exhaust leak? rocker arms? or lifters would be my guess. though, i bought my GTO and it sounded like that as well. when i tore it apart and put newer heads/cam i found it to be a bad lifter and had to replace mine.


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

*I know what happend.....

When they upgrade the cam in your car they DID not use new lifters and what most people don't realize is that roller lifters do get worn in... not as much as solid lifters but none the less it can affect idle.

I think you just need new lifters.... and depending on what stage cam, new springs as well, you might be able to get away with the push rods but I would still change them just because when you get to Germany they might be hard to find. This should not cost you all that much...*

*Dual springs(good ones) 400-600$
Chromemoly pushrods 130$
Lifters 350-500$*


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

*Also could we get a video with the hood up and cam at the front of the car.*


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## GTOJer (Oct 20, 2006)

I have installed about 15 cams. This sounds completely normal. 

MJ, sorry to disagree but out of all of those cams, I have done lifters 3 times and only because the heads off. The LS series engine requires you remove the heads to get to the lifters. The roller lifter does not have to marry to the cam like old school lifters. Remember the old break in? 20 min at 2500 RPM and go there as soon as the engine starts. The purpose was to break in the lifter to cam. With today's roller lifter, that is not required. GM even made the lifter holders so you, after removing the rocker arms, can spin the cam pushing the lifters into the holders so you can remove the cam without removing the lifters. Old school, one would never buy used lifters as they would destroy themselves and the new cam, today one can buy used lifters all day and not have those problems.

I remember reading an article in Engine Masters mag about a retrofit for SBC for these lifter holders and also using a split front cover, they swapped the cam in 20 min. Engine was on an engine dyno, but that is still really fast.

I personally run a set of shaft mounted adjustable rockers so I can set the preload like I want it (.040) so I control the noise. They are something to think about when you put a set of aftermarket heads on the car. Think about it, you have changed the cam, possible the lifters, the heads, the pushrods, and the valves. Everything has a tolerance and if they all line up on the wrong side, you will get tickers. I had 4 of them. The guy who ported my heads told me all the valves were exactly all the same height yet I had tickers. So I went adjustable and it is much, much quieter.

P.S. Good luck on your tour over there.


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## jpalamar (Jul 22, 2008)

Cams and valtrain upgrades will make more motor noise. It soudns perfectly fine. Roller lifters now-a-days don't need to be changed with each cam. Maybe going to something huge yes, but doesn't seem to be the case here. You are good to go. Just remember to warm your car up before getting on it and enjoy!


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## dquack (Oct 28, 2009)

I dropped her off at the dealership Wed afternoon and said everything sounded ok no worries. My biggest concern is the oil and the dealership said to do a comsumption check, but with it shipping out of country that is useless. I will mess with it when I get it over in Germany little by little. Thanks for all of the help you guys have been a lifesaver since my purchase and the help is awesome.


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## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

dquack said:


> I dropped her off at the dealership Wed afternoon and said everything sounded ok no worries. My biggest concern is the oil and the dealership said to do a comsumption check, but with it shipping out of country that is useless. I will mess with it when I get it over in Germany little by little. Thanks for all of the help you guys have been a lifesaver since my purchase and the help is awesome.


Oil consumption varies with many things, including driving style. There has been a ton of info posted on this forum about that subject over the years. GM sent a letter out about the topic as well. If you read between the lines of your owners manual about down shifting from high RPM to use the engine to assist braking the car, and have been doing that sometimes, you might find it to coinside with a higher than normal oil consumption rate. I'd noticed it once with my car and try not to do it unless I really need to shut it down quickly. My normal oil consumption is a 1 qt loss over the 5~6k mile oil change interval I follow (I use a K&N oil filter and 5.75 qts of Moble 1 oil in my bone stock LS2 cause 6qts is just a bit too much).

Enjoy the ride over there!


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

*Look, Heres the deal why risk? I have seen lifters go bye bye after a cam swap in ls-x and other engines as well. Do things right and DO IT ONCE. Now it could be the video there is some rattle, and who knows who did what. At the very least have it checked.. 
The biggest key thing of all was what the OP said was*

*''were done prior to me buying it.''*



GTOJer said:


> I have installed about 15 cams. This sounds completely normal.
> 
> MJ, sorry to disagree but out of all of those cams, I have done lifters 3 times and only because the heads off. The LS series engine requires you remove the heads to get to the lifters. The roller lifter does not have to marry to the cam like old school lifters. Remember the old break in? 20 min at 2500 RPM and go there as soon as the engine starts. The purpose was to break in the lifter to cam. With today's roller lifter, that is not required. GM even made the lifter holders so you, after removing the rocker arms, can spin the cam pushing the lifters into the holders so you can remove the cam without removing the lifters. Old school, one would never buy used lifters as they would destroy themselves and the new cam, today one can buy used lifters all day and not have those problems.
> 
> ...





jpalamar said:


> Cams and valtrain upgrades will make more motor noise. It soudns perfectly fine. Roller lifters now-a-days don't need to be changed with each cam. Maybe going to something huge yes, but doesn't seem to be the case here. You are good to go. Just remember to warm your car up before getting on it and enjoy!


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## GTOJer (Oct 20, 2006)

Sorry, can not possible come close to agreement with that statement. Pulling the heads off for a cam change is way too much work. That completely takes a cam install to the next level. May as well say if you are changing a cam then get some heads, head bolts (stock are 1 time use), and head gaskets. Oh and lifters. So instead of a minor intrusion into the motor, we just cracked that baby in half like a double barrel shotgun. And if you are down that far, might as well just yank the damn thing and forge it "while you are in there".


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## GTOJer (Oct 20, 2006)

Red Bearded Goat said:


> (I use a K&N oil filter and 5.75 qts of Moble 1 oil in my bone stock LS2 cause 6qts is just a bit too much).


Oil capacity of the LS1 and LS2 engine is 6.5 qts. 7.5 if you are racing. Read the owners manual or the factory manual.

Also Mobil 1 comes in the LS2 but not the LS1. I know the 2004 Corvette gets Mobil 1 from the factory but not the GTO. However, most 2004 GTO owners I have talked to have shifted over to Mobil 1. 

I personally run Royal Purple 10w-30 as I find the 5w-30 to be too thin and it does quiet the engine down some.


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## jpalamar (Jul 22, 2008)

MJGTOWISH said:


> *Look, Heres the deal why risk? I have seen lifters go bye bye after a cam swap in ls-x and other engines as well. Do things right and DO IT ONCE.*


*

There is doing it right and then there is overkill. Replacing lifters 99% of the time is over kill. Thats why they don't make them like they used to.*


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## GTOJer (Oct 20, 2006)

Of course there is a downside with a cam change that has not been discussed and will eventually cause noise and long term a lot of money. One of the benefits of a roller lifter is the rate of lift can be dramatically increased. If you look at the geometry of a flat tappet cam and lifter you can only have so big of a ramp due to the design of the lifter. But a roller lifter because it "rolls" up the ramp can support a ramp on the cam that slams the valve open and shut. There is a person out there who has a line of cams that are like this and they require a super strong spring to support that ramp. So, since you have strong springs, and strong rocker arms, strong pushrods it can actually eat some HP to turn the engine. And the wear location then is the lifter bore. I have seen some really radical wear on the lifters (steel) and the bore (AL). So if you shove a monster cam in, with 921 springs, don't be expecting 100,000 miles from the engine. Sure a cam with a wall for a ramp will snap that valve open, and after all if you are a racer, that is what you want. But it will wear your engine block and be noisy because what you are hearing then is the valve smacking the seat.

Just a little more to think about. An engine and a car are all about compromise.


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

*Now thats a better argument @ jp NO its not*


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## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

GTOJer said:


> Oil capacity of the LS1 and LS2 engine is 6.5 qts. 7.5 if you are racing. Read the owners manual or the factory manual.
> 
> Also Mobil 1 comes in the LS2 but not the LS1. I know the 2004 Corvette gets Mobil 1 from the factory but not the GTO. However, most 2004 GTO owners I have talked to have shifted over to Mobil 1.
> 
> I personally run Royal Purple 10w-30 as I find the 5w-30 to be too thin and it does quiet the engine down some.


LOL.... Its been a couple years since I'd read thru the manual... but, I find it funny your all up about the printed oil capacity in the book as gospel fact but choose to ignore the manual's required oil viscosity. I'm not saying what oil you choose to use is wrong... far from it, even though I use it. I just find the tone of your post laughable by writing "read the owners manual" when you don't follow the book verbatim. 

Since you chose to poke me in the eye about oil capacity;
While the manual states the oil capacity with filter to be 6.5 qts (service manual reads 6.55 qts and 6.02 qts without filter)... skip down to the disclaimer at the bottom of the page in both publications... see, "All capacities are approximate". Ton of reasons why this is true so actual variations do occur as noted by the OEM.

Every GTO forum has a few threads about oil change quantity and when you read the posts of what people actual use, you'll find it varies from 5.75 to 6.5 qts. The most common being 6 qts with filter.

My 1st oil change I put 6.5 qts in and new filter. I found the level to be a half inch above the high mark on the stick when checked on level ground at operating temperature. Next change I poured in 6 qts and the level was still above the high mark. When I backed off to 5.75 qts, the level was right on the money.

So, oil change reality for "MY" GTO is to add a total of 5.75 qts between the sump and filter for a full stick reading on level ground at operating temperature. I drain for an hour (not a drip left to drop type dry) in my driveway. Car parked at a slight grade nose down, jack up one side for access and lower to normal ride height during draining. Install the new filter pre-filled with clean oil after letting it saturate into the filter material before spinning it on. Fire it up until warm, shut it down, check for leaks and level. Take a run to the gas station and re-check level. Always the same, 5.75 qts and a level at the top full mark. I don't add oil between changes and check the level every other gas fill up. Somewhere between 5 and 6k miles it starts to consume oil and when the level drops to mid stick I change it again.

As per the owners manual with respect to oil viscosity; 

_What Kind of Engine Oil to Use
Look for two things:
• GM4718M
Your vehicle’s engine requires a special oil meeting
GM Standard GM4718M. Oils meeting this
standard may be identified as synthetic. However,
not all synthetic oils will meet this GM standard.
You should look for and use only an oil that meets
GM Standard GM4718M.
Notice: If you use oils that do not have the
GM4718M Standard designation, you can cause
engine damage not covered by your warranty.
• SAE 5W-30
As shown in the viscosity chart, SAE 5W-30 is best
for your vehicle.
These numbers on an oil container show its
viscosity, or thickness. Do not use other viscosity
oils such as SAE 20W-50.
Oils meeting these
requirements should also
have the starburst
symbol on the container.
This symbol indicates
that the oil has been
certified by the American
Petroleum Institute (API).
You should look for this on the oil container, and
use only those oils that are identified as meeting
GM Standard GM4718M and have the starburst symbol
on the front of the oil container.
page; 5-15_

Because I believe the OEM has their own agenda with respect to the recommended lubricating oil and where the rubber actually meets the road is varied across the herd... a great thread to read thru on the topic is;

LS1GTO.com Forums - My new oil: German Castrol 0w-30

Fortunately for the OP he is heading to Germany so the German Castrol will be an easy find.


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## GTOJer (Oct 20, 2006)

OK, guys, perhaps we are getting off on the wrong foot here. Red, I apologize if you think I meant to "poke you in the eye", and MJ, I am not saying you are wrong. None of this is personal, just technical and please look at it that way. I spent 22 years in the Navy onboard Nuclear Submarines where technical is a way of life. Before going into the Navy, I attended Wichita Automotive Institute. I am on my 4th GTO, and I am an anal SOB when it comes to my GTO. Close enough is not. It is right or it is not but that comes from being a submariner.

GTOAA asked me to watch on here and jump in on technical issues. I do that and will always talk the manual and then I will tell you if I deviate from that and why.

As far as oil goes, the book varies with what it says. The book I refer to is the factory service manual (paper, not CD). It says the capacity is 6.5qts with oil filter but then it says to check the fluid level. It also says 5W-30 is preferred but 10W-30 is acceptable providing the outside temp does not go below 0 degrees. The reason is fuel economy. Well, I could give a rat's ass about fuel economy. My shortblock builder wants me to use Royal Purple, which doesn't have the starburst on it. As a matter of fact, the 04 comes with dino oil not synthetic. All that added together makes the oil flow like water which I feel is too thin so I go to 10w-30.

MJ, you go ahead and pull the heads off to change a cam. The factory manual does not discuss this as it has the cam coming out as part of a teardown. But everything I can find online including LS1howto.com discusses how to keep the lifters out of the way while removing the cam. I can not find anywhere where it is suggested to change the lifters when changing a cam. I personally am on cam #5. I did put in new lifters with my new shortblock. Even HOTROD, Engine Builders, and HPP mags discuss reusing lifters. You are the only person I have ever heard say to change them with every cam change. Old school cam and lifters, you are right on and we agree 100%. On the LS series, hmmm, not so much.

But please remember, nothing personal, just technical. I love having technical discussions.

If you are a GTOAA member, all my contact info is in the Legend, feel free to contact me off line if you like.
Jerry


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## dquack (Oct 28, 2009)

GTOJer said:


> I personally am on cam #5.


Why 5 cams (just being nosy). Do they go bad or are you swapping out with better ones? I tried to find out what cam I have but the company that installed it never contacted me back, so when I get to Germany I guess I will open here up to look and see. I have a basic understanding of engines and tools (father is a gearhead) and I want to learn more about my GTO little by little till I get more comfortable with her. I do want a different cam in there, but first I have to find out which one is in there now. The first thing I am doing over the winter in Germany is the suspension upgrade - nothing spectacular just enough to keep her on the autobahn. I will first start off with looking at the suspension first to see what is good and if anything is bad and needs to be replaced. I am going for some new springs though cause I get tire rub when I have people in the backseat and I hit a bump.

Thanks for all of the insight - I am learning just reading all the posts you guys put up.


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## MJGTOWISH (Jun 15, 2006)

GTOJer said:


> OK, guys, perhaps we are getting off on the wrong foot here. Red, I apologize if you think I meant to "poke you in the eye", and MJ, I am not saying you are wrong. None of this is personal, just technical and please look at it that way. I spent 22 years in the Navy onboard Nuclear Submarines where technical is a way of life. Before going into the Navy, I attended Wichita Automotive Institute. I am on my 4th GTO, and I am an anal SOB when it comes to my GTO. Close enough is not. It is right or it is not but that comes from being a submariner.
> 
> GTOAA asked me to watch on here and jump in on technical issues. I do that and will always talk the manual and then I will tell you if I deviate from that and why.
> 
> ...


I'm an anal SOB :lol: And to be honest head removal ain't all that hard Yes u can change the cam with out even looking at the heads. But since my build will require new rods springs heads and cam WTH would I leave the stock lifters in there?


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

MJGTOWISH said:


> I'm an anal SOB :lol: And to be honest head removal ain't all that hard Yes u can change the cam with out even looking at the heads. But since my build will require new rods springs heads and cam WTH would I leave the stock lifters in there?


We have had these lifter/cam R&R discussions before, I see the same thing all the time.

MJ its your car you do what you want, you was given advise from a experianced mechanic you don't have to take it. 

I turn my own wrenches, because I don't trust anyone to work on my car. I replaced my cam in my GTO, kept the stock lifters because they are not required to be changed. I've done HPDE, plenty of high rpm canyon runs, take it on trips and its a DD. I have not had any problems out of my lifters. 
The few people I heard that replaced their lifters actully upgraded them to Caddilac racing lifters.


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

GTOJer said:


> Sorry, can not possible come close to agreement with that statement. Pulling the heads off for a cam change is way too much work. That completely takes a cam install to the next level. May as well say if you are changing a cam then get some heads, head bolts (stock are 1 time use), and head gaskets. Oh and lifters. So instead of a minor intrusion into the motor, we just cracked that baby in half like a double barrel shotgun. And if you are down that far, might as well just yank the damn thing and forge it "while you are in there".


:agree

I'm not going into my motor until I can afford everything at once.


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## GTOJer (Oct 20, 2006)

MJGTOWISH said:


> I'm an anal SOB :lol: And to be honest head removal ain't all that hard Yes u can change the cam with out even looking at the heads. But since my build will require new rods springs heads and cam WTH would I leave the stock lifters in there?


In that case, since you are there, of course replace them with an upgraded unit. But we were not discussing you, we were discussing a fellow brother in arms (retired 22year submariner here) and I have to make him feel better about his car before he heads to a distant post.


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## GTOJer (Oct 20, 2006)

dquack said:


> Why 5 cams (just being nosy). Do they go bad or are you swapping out with better ones? I tried to find out what cam I have but the company that installed it never contacted me back, so when I get to Germany I guess I will open here up to look and see. I have a basic understanding of engines and tools (father is a gearhead) and I want to learn more about my GTO little by little till I get more comfortable with her. I do want a different cam in there, but first I have to find out which one is in there now. The first thing I am doing over the winter in Germany is the suspension upgrade - nothing spectacular just enough to keep her on the autobahn. I will first start off with looking at the suspension first to see what is good and if anything is bad and needs to be replaced. I am going for some new springs though cause I get tire rub when I have people in the backseat and I hit a bump.
> 
> Thanks for all of the insight - I am learning just reading all the posts you guys put up.


First cam was the original. 
#2 cam and still my favorite cam was a Thunder Racing 224/224 .563/.563 112LSA. Great sound, great power, great idle. 
#3 cam was the second cam but in a 408, and it ran out of steam at 5200. Just could not keep up with the bigger cubes.
#4 cam was a streetsweeper III (236/240 .630/.610 111) I thought this was rather large and did not like the power band nor the idle.
#5 cam was a Streetsweeper HT (228/232 .612/.601 111) This one I felt was too small for the 408. Idled nice just didn't have the kick.
#6 cam is what I have now. It is a custom one off from Thunder Racing (232/240 .613/.607 111) Not "real" happy with it but we will see. I went with a xfi lobe. Comp cams has the xfi (mild) and the xer (faster) lobes, both of which have milder ramp rates than the streetsweeper version from Flowtech. I wanted longevity after building this for 2 years so I did not want slamming valves and the noise that comes from a radical ramp rate. I am now finding a faster ramp idles better because this one idles with about 11" of vacuum and is rough. Might have been better going with the xer lobe but it is what it is now. However, the milder ramps have allowed me to take out the 921 springs (beastly springs) and go with a milder Crane dual setup. So less load on the valvetrain. Once again, all about compromise. One thing nice about the xfi lobe is if I want I can change to a 1.75 rocker (which I just happen to have a set of roller tips standing by) which would change the lift to .631/.625. With all that I have done, I want a minimum of 500hp. Should be way more than that but if it is not, the rockers that are standing by will go in.

These cams have really taught me a lot about lobes, noise, and power.

I hope all of this answers your question. Good luck over there. Oh, and join GTOAA before you go so you will have a GTO link to the home front.


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