# Spoiler, functional or not.



## fattirewilly (May 26, 2006)

I know several folks have removed the spoiler and stated that it doesn't generate any down force. I used the search function and didn't find any evidence one way or the other as to whether or not the spoiler is functional.

Is this an opinion or has any seen/heard credible evidence that it doesn't do anything? For example: "I read in Road and Track that.... or my bro's friend designed the spoiler and he said.... or Hey willy you dumbass, Pontiac's homepage says the spoiler generates...."

The reason I ask it that the car felt a little light at 120. If the spoiler is doing anything, I'll leave it on. If it truely does nothing, it may come off. 

Thanks in advance!


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## SilverGoat (Oct 30, 2004)

When I asked about this before, Groucho had some pretty good knowledge about this stuff and he's taken his off as its a useless piece of plastic. (He's in aerospace something having been part of the team that developed the first private venture into space.) My car feels pretty solid at high speed (not admitting any number hopefully keeps me out of trouble), even on roads that are not meant for any speed.
The cars sold elsewhere don't come with this as standard so I really think this is some crappy plastic piece bolted on to keep the industry happy after Pontiac unclad most of their other vehicles. Now I realize some people like their spoiler, but I like the look without it and I can see the cars behind me and there is no more glare in the rear window from the stupid thing. 
Now I realize that I gave you no hard numbers and others should feel free to disagree, but I am happy being spoiler-free and encourage others to become free as well.


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## Gotagoat (Jan 6, 2006)

What kind of repair was necessary to the trunk deck?


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## EEZ GOAT (Jul 9, 2005)

either fill the holes and paint or get color machting plugs for the holes left behind after the delete:cheers


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## Cadsbury (Dec 6, 2005)

I got the plugs from www.topshelfperformance.com. $30.00 and they'll paint them to match. I wanted to see what my car would look like without the spoiler before I had the holes welded up and the had to have the decklid repainted.

All the pictures on the forum got me interested in doing it to my car, so I went with the plugs.

Hope that helps...

Chris


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## Clueless (Mar 2, 2006)

I think the only function of the spoiler is the extra 3rd (4th?) brake light. And to stockpile a layer of grime on the trunklid underneath it.


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## chrisGTO (Nov 26, 2005)

the www.topshelfperformance.com plugs look great, pita to get mine in, had to file the trunk lid a tad, but the plugs look nice.


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## enjracing (Jun 7, 2006)

i can give u a clear answer on this............. when you have the rear spoiler lower (much lower in the GTO's case) than the top of the roof line, you get almost no air to the rear wing. therefore, no downforce. in order to get effective downforce, you need to have non turbulent air hitting it directly. notice how the ozzy V8 supercars have the rear wing WAY HIGH up in the air above the roof line? the reason..... to get the non turbulent air. 11 years of professional racing taught me all about wings and air!!!


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## banshee (Jun 7, 2006)

I'm not a know-it-all, but I know this.....Fact. the C6 Corvette spoiler is functional and you hardly even notice it's there. different style spoilers serve different purposes. some stop the car from becoming airborn (Bugatti Veyron), some reduce tailwind or drag (porsche, C6 Vette) thus keeping your car stable and avoiding loss of control, some just look good and would be functional if the car could actually generate the speed for its use (Monte Carlo SS Nascar spoiler). so as far as the tall spoiler theory.....sorry but that's false. I don't know if the GTO spoiler is functional, but being the nerd I am, I will find out as soon as I get a clear night with no wind. I have a fog machine and a fan. its a really simple experiment. personally, I think it's functional. it contours the shape of the car and is raised, which indicates it generates a streamline effect which reduces the drag coeficient. I can tell you it does not produce downforce though. it would have to be angled and/or raised. remember, spoilers serve more than one purpose.


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## fattirewilly (May 26, 2006)

Decent comments so far, but not much based on facts, more seat of the pants stuff. I agree the spoiler can be functional aside from providing downforce, but if its purpose is to provide a cleaner airflow, what's the cd (coeffecient of drag) with verses the cd without.

Not playing down anyone's comments, but I'm hoping someone with some concrete info eventually pipes up.


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

CDx for the Holden Monaro (no wing) is .31. CDx for the Pontiac GTO (with wing) is .31. Personally, I like the look -- but do not think it does anything.


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## enjracing (Jun 7, 2006)

bro. please don't tell me that the tall spoiler theory is false. you don't know what you are talking about. i raced professionally for 11 years. www.enjracing.com and for 6 months when i raced f-holden (f-300) in australia, i was also a V8-supercar test driver. i couldn't be more correct. if the wing is below (especially extremely below like the gto) the roofline, it gets very turbulent and useless air. end of story. there is no argument here. i spend much of my life with brilliant engineers and aero specialists. i have also soent time in many wind tunnels.


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## enjracing (Jun 7, 2006)

why do people with zero factual knowledge, put down others comments? especially with such conviction. makes me laugh.


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## Cadsbury (Dec 6, 2005)

Dude, give it a rest with your pro racing back ground... You like to stoke yourself way too much. You may know what your talking about, but please don't throw it down our necks anymore.

We could benefit from your knowledge if you didn't get so defensive in your posts. They start to sound as if your putting people down...


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## enjracing (Jun 7, 2006)

couldn't be further from the truth. that guy was completely calling me ignorant and straight out told me that i was wrong. i was just clarifying the fact that HE was wrong. the only reason that i "throw it in your face" is that without the proof of my background, my opinion would not have a solid foundation to it. if my answer to the original question was just simply a guess, like his was, then i wouldn't be effectively answering the question for the guy who originally asked the question. no need to be a hater, guy. peace.


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## ShoddyHog (May 17, 2006)

*enjracing - spoiler post*

There was a thread where you made the argument that the rear spoiler does nothing on the GTO, but I cannot find it. Today I was trapped in a thunderstorm, and once I broke free from the traffic, I had two lanes wide open to me, and a big, black cloud chasing. I had her up to nearly 100, and kept an eye on the raindrops on the spoiler...not a one of them moved, and the drops on my rear glass barely did. Maybe I should have taken her up to 140 or so for testing, but from what I saw, it would support your statements.

I have to add that I've never, ever taken someone's credentials as a 100% guarantee that they are correct, so when you toss out yours for justification in an answer, it puts a bitter taste in my mouth. Too many times in my aviation career I heard the words, "Sarge, I've been working on these Cobras for 15 years and bla, bla, bla..." When people start saying stuff like that, I go into auto-BS sensing mode and doubt everything said thereafter. Just because someone does it the wrong way for 15 years doesn't make it the right way.

I owe you an apology, because that's exactly the way I thought about you when you posted the spoiler thread. Plus, I keep trying to put a NASCAR car in my mind next to a GTO and wonder why they have spoilers. Perhaps ours would be effective at higer speeds? Don't know, but wanted to comment. Maybe if the admins find your post, they will move mine to the appropriate thread.


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## enjracing (Jun 7, 2006)

thanks buddy. i appreciate it. i hear what your saying about the bla, bla, bla with people's BS. i hate it myself. that is kinda why i spoke up the way it did. i hate to throw around my credentials, but sometimes it is the only way to get people to shut up and listen and stop preaching nonsense as if they are experts!!!! even if our stock wing had a big kick on it that stood up a few inches like a stock car, it would not be hugely effective. although, it would at least help to settle the car a bit. take a look at the wings on the www.v8supercar.com.au site. that is where you need to place them to work to the full potential of the air. also check out the wing on http://www.rodmillenstore.com/prodinfo.aspx?partID=RMRGTO04.com 

that would work wonders!!!


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

ShoddyHog said:


> Maybe if the admins find your post, they will move mine to the appropriate thread.


Done!


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

The only downforce the spoiler provides is via the attraction of the fugly PoS to the center of the Earth's mass at roughly 32 ft/sec^2.

Aerodynamically, it does neither jack nor sh1t, except possibly as an experiment in just how _useless_ a parasitic drag-generating device can be. 

The only function it provides is to break up the clean lines of otherwise sexy sheetmetal, and to impede a good 15% the rear view from the driver's seat.


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## EEZ GOAT (Jul 9, 2005)

> good 15% the rear view from the driver's seat.


that what iam talking about. that damm treee came from nowhere and hit my back bumper:willy:


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## ShoddyHog (May 17, 2006)

Groucho said:


> The only downforce the spoiler provides is via the attraction of the fugly PoS to the center of the Earth's mass at roughly 32 ft/sec^2.
> 
> Aerodynamically, it does neither jack nor sh1t, except possibly as an experiment in just how _useless_ a parasitic drag-generating device can be.
> 
> The only function it provides is to break up the clean lines of otherwise sexy sheetmetal, and to impede a good 15% the rear view from the driver's seat.


Man, you crack me up. If you ever make it to the St. Louis area, let me know because the firmented grain beverages are on me. I'd love to get a couple in you, have you open up a bit, and quit sugar-coating things :lol: 

Keep up the good posts. I admire your brutal honesty. :cheers 

Gerry


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

ShoddyHog said:


> Man, you crack me up. If you ever make it to the St. Louis area, let me know because the firmented grain beverages are on me. I'd love to get a couple in you, have you open up a bit, and quit sugar-coating things :lol:
> 
> Keep up the good posts. I admire your brutal honesty. :cheers
> 
> Gerry


I'd be up for that someday. St Louis is a great town- was there back in Nov 2004 when we received the Ansari X-Prize at the Science center. The people were extremely nice, and the beer was frosty. :cheers


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## Anthony k (May 28, 2006)

enjracing said:


> i can give u a clear answer on this............. when you have the rear spoiler lower (much lower in the GTO's case) than the top of the roof line, you get almost no air to the rear wing. therefore, no downforce. in order to get effective downforce, you need to have non turbulent air hitting it directly. notice how the ozzy V8 supercars have the rear wing WAY HIGH up in the air above the roof line? the reason..... to get the non turbulent air. 11 years of professional racing taught me all about wings and air!!!



so by your professional 11yrs experience this wing does nothing? well let me tell you it does, and without it the car gets VERY loose @ 190mph. what did you race?


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Anthony k said:


> so by your professional 11yrs experience this wing does nothing? well let me tell you it does, and without it the car gets VERY loose @ 190mph. what did you race?


*This car does not do 190 mph. It shuts down at 160-170 mph. This is an on road performance car not a NASCAR.*


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

Anthony k said:


> so by your professional 11yrs experience this wing does nothing? well let me tell you it does, and without it the car gets VERY loose @ 190mph. what did you race?


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## 1969+37=2006 (Mar 30, 2006)

I looked at the V8series race cars and none of the cars had spoilers above the roof line although they were much higher up than the stock Goat's. What top speeds do they run? I am sure at certain higher speeds you need the air to be sucked oout from under a car. My belief is that at top speds in the GTO their might be some use for the wing. Many track racers are looking for some down force on the rear at much lower speeds. I think the V* series cars are look for that with their wing design. Me, I'm not going to be doing 160 but I like the look. When the 04 GTO came out the only thing it had to separate it much in looks from the GP was the wing. I wanted hood scoops and the dual exhaust look. As soon as they did that i was had.


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## enjracing (Jun 7, 2006)

they are much more than a "little higher" than the stock wing!!!! what??? unreal. they are extremely high up (well over two feet above the deck lid) and they are a proper wing altogether. i was a test driver for a V8 supercar team (then the konica lights series) in 2001 while i was racing Formula holden (f-3000). i think that would give me a little bit more authority on the topic. for the guy that asked what i raced........... www.enjracing.com it's really not an argument. it's just a fact.


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## UdnUdnGTO (Jan 30, 2006)

arty: I think I will stay within the legal limit of speed and not worry about this.:cheers


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## enjracing (Jun 7, 2006)

sorry. i should have been more clear............not above the roofline on the V8 supercars, but very close to it. either way, the wings work because of their design and the fact that they are located in the more direct airflow. here's a test.............put your hand out your window at highway speeds and then put your hand directly behind your sideview mirror. notice a huge difference in air speed and pressure? this is a different but good way of showing what a "non-direct" air flow will do to the wing it is hitting.


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## YouHolden? (Jun 29, 2005)

Arn't there a few Porches/ higher end sports cars that have rear spoilers that have multiple deployment stages at different speeds? They raise up at higher speeds, but the difference is only a couple of inches. This would indicate that they would need to be higher to produce downforce, but even fully raised, they arn't anywhere near the height of the roofline. My question is this: is the general opinion of people here that these spoilers are also innefective? It seems like a costly component to put on a car to be non-functional.


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## enjracing (Jun 7, 2006)

good point buddy, but i think i can answer this understandably..........yes, the higher the wing is to being at the roofline or above, the more downforce will be made. that is why they will be able to be manually raised as on the porsche carrera gt. the thing is though, it is for practicality reasons and for esthetic reasons that you dont see race car style wings on street cars. they would look rediculous and obstruct the view from the rear. also, the wings on the high end sports cars are far more like a true downforce creating wing than the silly thing that is on our gto's. it has virtually no kick to it, plus, the more surface area that you give the wing, the more air it will hold. our has little surface area. actually, the gto wing has nothing going for it to help stablaize the car. its to low, it has little kick, and it has little surface area. it just sucks and blocks rear view vision!!!! you know what wing looks silly but workd well i bet? the wing on the subaru wrx. very ricer, but i would bet that it makes some decent downforce at speed.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

This thread is a waste of bandwidth.

My "Mark One Eyeball" analysis as to what a stupid, useless, and ugly waste of thermoplastic these spoilers are is based on my engineering back ground and thirteen years of experience in the business of building and test flying bleeding-edge aircraft and spacecraft. 

It's also based on the fact that I've had my car up to over 140 mph with it _on_ and with it _off_. 

_There is no difference_.

Aerodynamically speaking, it _would_ be nice to have something there to cleanly divert the airflow up a bit to "stretch" the area of low-pressure stagnant air behind the car, thus helping to flatten out (minimize) the pressure delta. 

The very small, subtle rear-decklid lip extension on an E46 BMW M3 does this.










The JHP lip spoiler comes _close_, but IMHO is also overkill.










The stupid boy-racer ricerwing our cars comes with does _none of this_- it merely creates turbulent airflow, and, as Lutz's consession to the F-Body types who seems to like useless, inelegant protuberances, is there solely to appease The Mulletude.

Again- my opinion. If you want _proof_, spend some _serious_ money and have the car digitized for CFD analysis.

You can bet that _P-P-_Pontiac didn't.


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## enjracing (Jun 7, 2006)

exactly. this is such a boring topic now. let's be done with it.


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## enjracing (Jun 7, 2006)

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/newmodels/automotive/29728/

about half way down this article, they talk about the rear wing on this porsche and how it only makes a few pounds of downforce at 150 mph!!!!! my point has been made!!!!!! and for all of the reasons i talked about. mainly though............because of how low it is placed under the roof line!!!!! give it a rest!!


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