# Drag Ready?



## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

My '68 Goat has been frame off restored - nearly everything is either new or rebuilt. New tires, suspension, brakes, and the engine is rebuilt with about 1,500 miles on it. Generally it runs very well - the TH400 is also rebuilt.

I know and trust the previous owner, but also know he barely drove the car - I've had it up to 70 on the highway a few times and it seems to ride smoothly.

So my question is this - while I love my "show car" my dream has always been to drive a strip car - and I would LOVE to get this guy on the local track at a test and tune! A gentle burnout, then foot on the floor and see what it can do!

My question though, is if hypothetically I could get this guy to approach 100mph, which I think I could, how do I know it's safe to do so? 

Should I be "inspecting" anything in particular first? Should I have it inspected?

How do I know if I'm "Drag Ready"?

Thanks!


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## curtis.smith68 (May 9, 2018)

I'm curious myself on this topic as I just started rolling my girl around the neighborhood since her recent resto and though I haven't put her on a Dyno she is beyond stock power... 
I'd be concerned with week links in the drive train if you are able to hook up well off the line. One part I installed, with this specifically in mind, is solid U-joints. Greasable ones are hollow and I see that as a crucial stress point. I've lost my D/S once at the diff. and fortunately I was only at a rolling speed and my instinctual reaction was to slam the clutch pedal down as soon as the I heard/felt the significant BOOM because without a D/S loop my car's belly would have been beat up badly. My U-joint split like an egg. I've also increased my wheel studs to 1/2-20. I haven't done the math but just looking at the 7/16" studs... they seem like they would snap if I hooked up. Maybe overkill and I know if I beef up one component and make it more rigid then another component becomes the weak link. For me, I'm now concerned with my DS turning into a candy cane, my stock Muncie or my rear end shattering as those are still stock non-HO components.


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

curtis.smith68 said:


> I'm curious myself on this topic as I just started rolling my girl around the neighborhood since her recent resto and though I haven't put her on a Dyno she is beyond stock power...
> I'd be concerned with week links in the drive train if you are able to hook up well off the line. One part I installed, with this specifically in mind, is solid U-joints. Greasable ones are hollow and I see that as a crucial stress point. I've lost my D/S once at the diff. and fortunately I was only at a rolling speed and my instinctual reaction was to slam the clutch pedal down as soon as the I heard/felt the significant BOOM because without a D/S loop my car's belly would have been beat up badly. My U-joint split like an egg. I've also increased my wheel studs to 1/2-20. I haven't done the math but just looking at the 7/16" studs... they seem like they would snap if I hooked up. Maybe overkill and I know if I beef up one component and make it more rigid then another component becomes the weak link. For me, I'm now concerned with my DS turning into a candy cane, my stock Muncie or my rear end shattering as those are still stock non-HO components.


Thanks Curtis - this engine is "mostly" stock, however it does have Doug headers, and a Ram Air III profile cam. Also a brand new oil filter housing (inside joke!) I appreciate the thoughts, thanks!


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## sethccole (May 4, 2019)

Hey gents! I'm also in this position. I got mine about six months ago and it has a cam in it, but the PO couldn't tell me anything about the reuild, go figure. I've been on her pretty hard with the TH400 3 speed and besides a little play in the shift linkage, she seems to love to go. The only "issue" ive had is tuning the secondaries on the carb for wide open throtle. Seems to bog at the top. Here are some of the things I'm going to do before I add a 6-71 on top for reference.

Engine:
Bore to 428
Forged internals
EFI w/ Injector Hat
(6-71 Blower later)

Trans:
I'm still debating this one. I know I need more gears. It's either going to be a 6r80 that Gearstar is currently working on or an overdrive from Gear Venders.

Rear End:
I'll keep the 10 bolt for right now depending on the gears, but I still have to do the math on what I need to run in concert with the power and tire size. Once the 10 bolt blows up, I'll be going to a 9".

Tires:
I'm running Nitto 555s right now that are the redline repros. I think the back are 295s and the front are 275s. For the rear I'll probably go up to a 315.

Chasis:
Speaking of tires, I'm having the frame notched and boxed to fit 315s.

Suspension:
QA1 drag set up with dual adjust coil overs in the rear.

Safety: 
6 point cage (actually 8 point), 2004 GTO seats to hold me in place, and everything needed for an NHRA 9.99+ quarter. 

Others:
Line lock
Rear Disks
Fire Extinguisher
New fuel system (20 gal in the trunk, braided fuel lines, double fuel pumps, etc)
Front and Rear Seats
Guages that work (haha)
A/C, Heat


Lots of other stuff. 

As for what to inspect, drain the fluids and look for metal shavings in it. Cut the oil filter in half and look in the fins of the filter it self for such. At the track, wear safety euipment such as a jacket and helmet to NHRA Standards. You can find some good info in their rule book or pretty much any track safety site. 

You should defenitly not just *burn the tires* or *get on the highway and put the foot down* .... ...... ..... .....yeah, *don't* do that.

But thats how I tested mine. :'D


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

*bigD* is going to chiming in on this one as he has a lot of experience drag racing the Pontiac.

For a relatively stock car like *Ebartone*, you should not have to worry about much of nothing. Stock drivetrain is well matched from the factory to hold up. It would not hurt to simply get the car on a lift and do a safety inspection looking for anything worn or loose. A helper can gently turn the steering wheel left & right while observing all the pivot joints. If most of the components have been replaced and are new, I would be checking to see that everything was still nice and tight up front. Most all your front end components will have "castle nuts" and a cotter pin to secure them - so check for and verify all the cotter pins are in place. Upper and lower ball joints when replaced will be secured with bolts/nuts versus the factory rivets. Just ensure they are tight, not killer tight, and not loose. Not sure what the torque is, but as long as they looked OK and not backing out, then they should be OK.

Check your rubber brake lines for any cracking/splitting or leaks. With the car up in the air and no weight on the tires, spin them. They should spin freely and easily. Disc brakes may drag slightly and they won't spin as easy as drum brakes, but they should have some spin to them.

Grab the tire on the outside at the 9 & 3 o'clock position and see if you can shake it in and out. You are checking for any excessive wheel bearing play. You may have a very slight back and forth movement, but nothing excessive. It is better to have a wheel bearing a tad bit loose than too tight which wears them out. If you wanted, you can easily pull the hub covers and verify that the large cotter pin secures the axle nut. You should also see a little grease in there. I probably go a little excessive in the amount of grease I stuff in the wheel bearing cavity under the large flat washer that goes over/on the outer bearing, but I figure more is better and I've never had an issue. If you feel there is more play than you want, you can simply pull the cotter pin, the castle nut cover which goes over the large axle nut, and tighten it to the next hole in which the cotter pin will go through. This can be done as long as tightening does not make it too tight and the wheel no longer rotates freely.

Make sure your wheel studs are all there and in good shape. They should protrude out of the rim evenly and have enough threads that the lug nuts can grip. Make sure all lug nuts are tight.

Check tires. No dry rot, checking, cracks, or uneven wear.

Seeing you will be torquing the engine over under full throttle, check the engine mounts, especially the driver's side as this is that one that the engine will pull hardest on in an attempt to rip it out. LOL Check your trans mount at the crossmember and the hold down bolts/rubber cushions at the ends of the crossmember. You don't want anything loose or shifting around, or split/broken due to age or abuse.

Grab the driveshaft and move it up and down, left and right. It will rotate slightly as it is its nature, so look at the U-joints and watch as you work them up & down, left & right. You should not see any play. If you do, the needle bearings and/or U-joint cross bar are worn.

You can also see how much play you have in the rear-end gears. With the transmission in Park or gear, grab one of the rear wheels and rotate it back and forth watching how much you have to rotate it one way until you get resistance or won't turn, and then go the other way until you get resistance or won't turn. You will see some slop due to age, but just how much may surprise you. My '68 Lemans had a lot of slop, but I really didn't worry about it and I was not going to pull the rear apart and rebuild to remove it.

You can check the rear brake drag by putting th trans in neutral so the driveshaft will rotate, and spin the wheel. it won't spin like the front tires, so don't expect it to. Instead listen/feel for any excessive drag of the brake shoes on the drum. You might also give the wheel a shake front to back checking for excess bearing play.

Check all the upper and lower control arm bolts making sure none are loose. The factory bolts that go through the control arm and bushings use a lock nut and I have never ever seen one back off or come loose. And, they are sometimes tough to remove with years of rust on them - so this holds them in place as well. Grab the control arms and pull on them in several directions to make sure they are tight and not sloppy. Typically, the bushing may look good, but the hole in the center is what gets wallowed/worn out and you can't really see it. Other times you can see the bushing is badly cracked/split due to age.

Check your brake hose while under there as well as the rubber fuel line going to the gas tank. Like the front, check wheel studs & lug nut tightness, and tire condition. 

Basically, that would be my chassis safety check.

Engine wise, check your belts & make sure all fluids are filled, making sure not to over fill the radiator and puke out the excess anti-freeze on the race track - they don't like it.

The rest is on you, buckle-up, and go for it. :thumbsup:


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

curtis.smith68 said:


> I'm curious myself on this topic as I just started rolling my girl around the neighborhood since her recent resto and though I haven't put her on a Dyno she is beyond stock power...
> I'd be concerned with week links in the drive train if you are able to hook up well off the line. One part I installed, with this specifically in mind, is solid U-joints. Greasable ones are hollow and I see that as a crucial stress point. I've lost my D/S once at the diff. and fortunately I was only at a rolling speed and my instinctual reaction was to slam the clutch pedal down as soon as the I heard/felt the significant BOOM because without a D/S loop my car's belly would have been beat up badly. My U-joint split like an egg. I've also increased my wheel studs to 1/2-20. I haven't done the math but just looking at the 7/16" studs... they seem like they would snap if I hooked up. Maybe overkill and I know if I beef up one component and make it more rigid then another component becomes the weak link. For me, I'm now concerned with my DS turning into a candy cane, my stock Muncie or my rear end shattering as those are still stock non-HO components.



A drive shaft safety loop is always a plus if you are going to race regular or stand on the car a lot. Not quite the need with a stock set-up, but with higher HP/TQ, it is insurance. There are many offerings available from the aftermarket suppliers. I had a driveshaft separate from the car after the TH-400 locked up solid at 140MPH. Trans blew off the back of the engine pulling out the driveshaft. At that speed and whipping around for a moment, it put a dent in the rear floor about 4 inches into the foot pan area. Ripped off the U-joint straps at the rear end and I never did find the drive shaft. Another time a busted the front pinion u-joint carrier on a 10-bolt on a 1977 Caprice wagon. Just a slightly warmed over 350/automatic, but the wide tires really grabbed well and on a hard launch up an incline, I launched the drive shaft as I split the u-joint carrier. So things can happen and wider/stickier tires that provide more traction can be your enemy.

Your rims seat on the machined step in the end of the axle. The lug nuts hold it there. The 1/2 -20 are most likely a grade-8 stud and will handle a lot of twisting torque applied to the wheels. The lugs have a taper which should also center on the rim holes that the studs go through. As I recall, the 1/2" studs fit tighter, so less air space/play for movement of the rim, but the lug nuts taper still center the rim over the studs.

As you increase HP/TQ, all things can happen and you may have to address several areas to improve traction and keep from breaking parts. Many don't consider the rest of the drivetrain behind the big engine as they pump big dollars into it for those big numbers only to have failure of the transmission, rear end, suspension, or even crack the frame. Automatics are easier on the rest of the parts while dumping the clutch and slam-bang shifting from a manual trans wreaks havoc on parts.

Wider/sticky tires for more traction & a posi set-up will put/send additional torque through the rear end, rear suspension, engine/trans mounts, u-joints, transmission, etc.. Then depending on how you drive your car will determine how long parts last - and which ones you will need to replace first.

I would not be too concerned with twisting a driveshaft - it'll take a lot of HP. You may see the aluminum driveshaft tooted as the way to go, but it may not be. The aluminum may be slightly lighter, but it does not dampen the vibration resonance & frequency of the drivetrain and can get loud as heard inside the car.

As far as the rest, the 10-bolt is a weak link with big HP/TQ and the wide tires/posi combo and may grenade under abuse. Never heard of or experienced a Muncie going bad, but never had any more than factory HP in front of one. I suppose the M-22 "rock crusher" would be the next step up unless you go aftermarket. I went with the TKO-600 knowing I was going to have the big HP/TQ, as well as a Ford 9" out back.

On my build, I boxed the side frame rails, welded in additional plates and gussets on the upper/lower control arm mountings, added an angle plate to the crossmember that the upper control arms bolt to, and went with adjustable tubular control arms, and upper/lower control arm braces, fabricated my own adjustable "no-hop" bars, added gussets to the shock mounts, and added a rear sway bar. I should be able to install a top fuel engine and never pull the rear end out while pulling down the Empire State Building. :thumbsup:

So it just depends on the HP/TQ level you have, the way you drive, and if you plan to do some serious racing or just want fast.


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## john23 (Mar 6, 2016)

I am not sure I understand the question. You, yourself, need to know that the brakes and steering work, the car shifts, doesn't have an ignition miss, no fluid leaks and other basic safe operating requirements. Any responsible track, which includes all NHRA tracks, will do a safety inspection of your car before you are allowed to run. This includes, among other things, seatbelts, a battery tie down, reverse lock out, neutral safety switch, overflow can, etc. You can find safety requirements on your local track's website. 

Remember, if you have much power at all, you will overwhelm your stock tires. While squealing tires and fish tail launches thrill the kiddies, they make for disappointingly slow times. Consider some DOT slicks if you get the drag race bug, Good luck and have fun


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## GTO44 (Apr 11, 2016)

To answer your question of will you see 100mph in the quarter...

No. Not to be a negative nancy but on street tires you’re looking at a best of mid 14’s if ur lucky. You’d be trapping around 90 mph.

My chevelle runs mid 12’s at 105 off nitrous.

Late model cars typically have a higher trap speed. I’ve seen 111.6 in my stock 2006 gto, which was a 12.71. Typically would run 12.8-12.9 around 108-109.

Like mentioned earlier you’ll need a set of drag radials or bias ply slicks to get any type of traction and run a decent number.

As far as safety... if you nail it on an on-ramp getting up on the interstate and get to top of 3rd and it doesnt blow up or fall apart... you’ll be plenty fine at the track. I would add a radiator overflow can/tank tho. Dont wanna be the guy that ran hot and puked coolant on the track. As far as tech... most tracks on test and tune night wont even look twice at ur car if you tell them its stock and will probably run in the low 15’s to mid 14’s. Hell i have customers with 9 and 10sec cars that dont get looked at for tech on test and tune nights. But that definitely is a function of the track and how lax they are on test and tune nights...


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

Yep, high 12's to 14's is what these cars are capable of. All factory parts are fine until to run a sticky tire, worse if it is a stick. Helmets are almost always required and not the football kind. Just go out and have fun but remember, speed is addictive and if you want to play you'll have to pay.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...my dream has always been to drive a strip car..."


This may not be what you wanna hear. But, here goes.

Having had quite a few street only, & strip only Pontiacs, I would not personally wanna try to build a street/strip car. Now, I'm not talkin about a car that you just take to the strip occasionally, for a couple of passes, on T&T night. 

But, if you seriously wanna get into bracket racing, I'd keep my street/show car as just that, and never put it on the track. 

Because so MANY different things can happen to a car, when making full passes down the track, I wouldn't think of DRIVING the car to the track. It needs to go there on a trailer, so you know you can get it back home, even if you can't drive it home. 

I know this takes the fun out of it, for lots of street guys. BUT, I have to assume that it would not be any fun at all if you break something at the track and can't drive it home. Think about it. What would you do ? Do you have a really good friend with a truck & trailer who you could call, late at night, to get him out of bed & bring his rig to the track to haul your car home ? Or would you have to pay a tow truck, or another racer, to haul it home for you ? None of these options sound good to me. Sorry for the downer. But this is reality. 

Now, on a lighter note, since you say your "...dream has always been to drive a strip car...", you owe it to yourself to buy or build a strip-only bracket car. Drag racing is not for everybody. But, since I did my first serious drag racing, back in 1973, that's absolutely ALL I've wanted to do for fun. I don't hunt, fish, play golf, ride 4-wheelers, or play video games. Don't care about watching sports on TV, except for a few special events, such as championship events. I have no other interests except talking about Pontiacs & racing Pontiacs. Unfortunately, mostly for financial reasons, I have been able to do VERY little racing, in the past 30 years. But, that didn't make me like it any less. I suppose it's sorta like the saying goes, "it just gets in your blood". 

Therefore, I highly recommend giving bracket racing a serious try. 3 essentials are a good dependable truck, big enuff to safely pull a car/trailer, a good car hauling trailer, and of course, a decent race car. No reason to buy/build a race car unless you can get it to & from the track. I have some good Pontiac friends/neighbors that will haul mine to the track for me, and help me work on the car, if needed. But, if I plan to run a full schedule, I wouldn't expect them to do all the hauling. I'd get my own rig. In my case, I already have a trailer. So, I'd just need a good dependable truck. 

Now, as for the car, it don't have to be real fast. For bracket racing, it don't really matter how slow the car is. There is a bracket you can run, in which you have just as good a chance at winning as anybody else. There are 3 basic things you must do, in order to be competitive. (1) You must set up your car to leave quick, as soon as you hit the go pedal. (2) You must train yourself to hit the pedal the instant the bottom yellow light comes on, every pass. (3) You must set the car up so that it consistently runs real close to the same ET. Or, to put it a simpler way, you gotta cut a good light & run your dial-in. If you can do that, you can win races. I'm not sayin it's easy to do. But, I AM saying most people can learn to do it, and that when you do, it can be LOTS of fun. 

Again, drag racing is not for everybody. My first Pontiac friend tried bracket racing. He would get so mad when he lost, he decided he didn't wanna do it any more. But, he did like racing & Pontiacs. So, he took up dirt track racing, with a Pontiac. And he learned to do it good enuff to win LOTS of races & a few track championships. He even got me interested in it enuff to do a little of it myself. Anyhow, for those who don't mind doing a lot of wrenchin on their car, and learning how to do it right, bracket racing can be lots of fun. 

Now, as for the car, unless you are a decent mechanic & fabricator, I'd recommend buying a car that's already set up for drag racing. There are always guys who are quitting, for whatever reason, so there are always cars for sale, either ready to race, or as a roller, without engine/trans. Back in '08, I bought a ready-to-race '74 455 powered Ventura for about $3800, shipped from Kansas to Louisiana. There is no way I could have built that car from scratch for even twice that much. Probably would have cost me well over $10k. You can probably find lots of bracket cars for less than $10k. Probably lots decent bracket rollers out there for less than $5k. 

No, you won't find a decent real GTO that cheap. But, you don't need a GTO to race. Leaf spring cars are probably the easiest to set up. So, a Ventura or other X-body is a good choice. Also probably cheaper than a decent '72 or older Tempest/Lemans. I'd love to see somebody get into bracket racing & start a build thread about it. I'd certainly be glad to share everything I know about it. 

Well, I could go on & on. But hey, it's time for breakfast !


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

bigD said:


> "...my dream has always been to drive a strip car..."
> 
> 
> This may not be what you wanna hear. But, here goes.
> ...


Awesome BigD, thank you so much for the in depth response! This definitely gives me a LOT to think about - possibly in a way, I knew this but didn't want to admit it to myself,. My '68 goat is definitely sweet - real sweet! But it just doesn't have the "feel" of a strip car; I've been known to call it my "pretty-boy show car..." - and yea, after springing what to me is a lot of money, the idea of pounding it on the strip does frighten me a bit.

I'll take what you said to heart, and start to poke around at bracket cars for sale - thank you!

Ed


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...I'll take what you said to heart, and start to poke around at bracket cars for sale..."

I found mine thru an ad on racingjunk.com. They have some good buys, sometimes. Then there are some ridiculous prices there, also. 

Here's an $8k roller. 

https://www.racingjunk.com/Sportsma...a.html?search=pontiac&np_offset=4&from=search

Here's one I like. This & many other cars have been on here for quite a while. So, you might be able to get a better price, on some of these cars, if you have the cash & show a real interest to make a quick buy. 

https://www.racingjunk.com/Complete....html?search=pontiac&np_offset=14&from=search

If you want an A-body, this one MIGHT be a decent build-from-scratch car, if it's not a rust bucket. 

https://www.racingjunk.com/Pontiac/...html?search=pontiac&np_offset=119&from=search

Here's something different that is partially built.

https://www.racingjunk.com/1960-197...ml?search=pontiac&np_offset=173&from=search#9

This one looks to be a pro-street build, but could be made into a bracket car.

https://www.racingjunk.com/Pontiac/...html?search=pontiac&np_offset=198&from=search

This looks like a nice '74 Bird. Lots of ads are deceiving, and, obviously, lots of sellers will lie. But, everything I was told about the car I bought was correct. 

https://www.racingjunk.com/Door-Car...html?search=pontiac&np_offset=223&from=search 

3rd gen Birds make good race cars. And, because 3rd gens are cheap, you can usually find some good buys, especially if they are sbc powered. You could learn how with a cheap Chevy powered car, then, if you wanna get into bracket racing deeper, you can either swap over to Pontiac power, or sell the Chevy powered car & buy a different car with Pontiac power. If you get into it cheap, & decide you don't like it, you may be able to get most of your money back.

https://www.racingjunk.com/Sportsma...html?search=pontiac&np_offset=272&from=search

This car has been on here for a long time. Don't know why.

https://www.racingjunk.com/Dragster...ml?search=pontiac&np_offset=291&from=search#2

How about a '78 GP ?

https://www.racingjunk.com/Complete...ml?search=pontiac&np_offset=327&from=search#5

Here's a '78 BBC powered X-body.

https://www.racingjunk.com/Complete...ml?search=pontiac&np_offset=337&from=search#1

This looks like a serious Pontiac powered A-body. There are lots of ways to slow a quick car down, so it'll be safer while learning. 

https://www.racingjunk.com/Complete...html?search=pontiac&np_offset=340&from=search

This Sunbird would make a cute little bracket car. But, I'd either sell or trade the big engine for something a little smaller & slower. 

https://www.racingjunk.com/Complete...html?search=pontiac&np_offset=358&from=search

These are just a few of the Pontiacs on racingjunk.com. There are Facebook Pontiac pages which list some, as well as other Pontiac forums, where guys sometimes sell a drag car. These will give you a ruff idea of what's out there, & the aprox price.


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

bigD said:


> "...I'll take what you said to heart, and start to poke around at bracket cars for sale..."
> 
> I found mine thru an ad on racingjunk.com. They have some good buys, sometimes. Then there are some ridiculous prices there, also.
> 
> ...


This is amazing BigD thank you for putting the time into this! I really appreciate - I have a starting point!


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

This looks like a decent buy on a real nice 3rd gen. The guy went 9.40's in it. But, you could start off with a mild 400 or 455, and then go quicker later on, if you wanted to, without having to buy a different car. He's had it for sale for a long time. It's down to $12K. You never know, he might take $10k, just to help get you started. Hey, I've given away several drag cars, to help guys out. 

1992 Firebird Formula drag roller - PY Online Forums - Bringing the Pontiac Hobby Together

Here's what it would look like painted white. This one belongs to Scott Burton. 9 sec Super Stocker.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Here's a nice '71 Bird for $19k obo. It's a pro-street car, but wouldn't need much to be strip ready. 

" i bought it as a roller it was a buddys bracket car, i put my other buddys 428 about 700 hp ran 1170s in a 64 gto with 373s fully dressed. This car has a trans brake, reverse valve body, 4 link narrowed 12 bolt with 433 gears, needs tire to run on the track csge certified to 8.50 til 2020 "


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

If you decide to buy or build a drag car, for now, or over the winter, how much are you willing to pay to get it race ready ? 

That will help me filter out some of the possible cars I find. 

Another good idea is to talk to the racers in your area. Some of them will probably know of some cars for sale. Don't know if any will be Pontiac. If so, they'll probably have Chevy power. But, you can either get started with that, or sell the Chevy engine & swap in a Pontiac. That's what I did on my current bracket car.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

IF I was in the market for an A-body bracket car, had the money, & lived close enuff, I'd check this one out real good. 

" 71 Pontiac LeMans sport, 455 aluminum heads, dominator carb, th350 and 12 bolt with 4:10 gears. 6 point cage and full interior. Needs front brake work and paint buffed.
$13,000 located in central Illinois."


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

If you've ever been to Norwalk for the Tri-Power Nationals you will see a fair amount of so called "show cars" competing in the 1/4 mile.

Unless I start running Pro-Mod I would never build a purpose built, strickly race car again. With todays technology there is no reason you can't have a street/strip show car.

If you can't use it whenever and where ever you want why waste the money.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

This 455 Vent is down to $22K.

1972 Ventura Street/Strip - PY Online Forums - Bringing the Pontiac Hobby Together


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...If you can't use it whenever and where ever you want why waste the money."


You have obviously never raced a dedicated, competitive bracket car, week in & week out, and sometimes 2 races at 2 different tracks the same weekend, and especially if the tracks were a 3 hour drive from home. I wouldn't even consider driving the car to the track. 

Now if all the track time you ever see is on very rare occasions, at your local track's test & tune night, which is less than 30 minutes away, then a nice street/strip car may be all you need. 

But hey, maybe you are the rare exception to the rule, and your 40-50 year old car is built so well that it will never fail to perform flawlessly, under all circumstances, & will do so for the next 20 years, with no repairs needed & very little maintenance. Hey, I'm proud for you. Most of us low budget guys don't have cars like that.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

'69 Bird with 461 engine & TH400 trans. Ran a 6.89 on a 1/8 mile track. Turnkey $18,500.


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## cij911 (Oct 25, 2017)

I'll throw my $0.02 into the ring....Sure if you want to race a ton, then a dedicated track car is the way to go. If you just want to have fun with your street toy every once in a while at the track, then just take it to the track and have fun. Heck drive your car on the street too....

Having a dedicated race car is an expensive and time consuming hobby. The one thing I will say is if you get addicted to racing, then don't butcher a nice street car trying to make it street / race car, rather follow BigD's advice.


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

All,

I really thank everyone for chiming in - it's very helpful to me in getting my head around this question, and I hope (and I think) helpful to others as well - I can't be the only one thinking about this! 

Thanks!


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...I can't be the only one thinking about this!"

You'd probably be surprised what a small percentage of car guys would ever even consider making a pass down the track, much less actually becoming a competitive bracket racer. As I said, "It ain't for everybody."

Even back during the entire period of the '70's & '80's, around my local area, there were probably less than a dozen guys who ever actually did any serious organized drag racing, on a regular basis. And 5 of those drove my cars. And 2 of those were me & my girlfriend/wife.


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

bigD said:


> "...If you can't use it whenever and where ever you want why waste the money."
> 
> 
> You have obviously never raced a dedicated, competitive bracket car, week in & week out, and sometimes 2 races at 2 different tracks the same weekend, and especially if the tracks were a 3 hour drive from home. I wouldn't even consider driving the car to the track.
> ...


You obviously never heard of drag week and yes I have. That's why I would never build a car to use 3-4 times a month again. One of my cars has a hitch to pull a trailer for my golf cart.

All that is neither here nor there, what does bracket racing have to do with what the OP is referring to?


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

NOS Only said:


> You obviously never heard of drag week and yes I have. That's why I would never build a car to use 3-4 times a month again. One of my cars has a hitch to pull a trailer for my golf cart.
> 
> All that is neither here nor there, what does bracket racing have to do with what the OP is referring to?


NOS only - while it wasn't my original ask, the topic kinda went in this direction and I kinda let it because I thought it was interesting and a TON of good information for others that may be interested in as well - my bad...... :frown3:

Probably this is a good place to end this string, thanks everyone! 

Ed


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...Having a dedicated race car is an expensive and time consuming hobby..."

I just got to thinkin about this, as compared to other hobbies.

In my area the most common hobbies for guys are probably fishing & hunting. 

The guys who fish must have the latest high tech bass boat & tackle. Have ya'll checked the price of nice bass boat lately ? They also must have a nice late model 4WD truck to pull it to all the lakes within a couple of hundred miles. One of those now cost nearly $50g, more for fancy ones. Then there are entry fees for all the bass tournaments & fuel for truck & boat. 

How about hunting ? I suppose that MIGHT be a little cheaper. BUT, in my area, you can't just go out into a patch of woods and hunt. You have to pat-to-play. You can either lease some land to hunt on, or buy into a group hunting club lease of some sort. My wife(TJ) said she was told that it costs $1000 per year to buy into a nearby lease. They just contacted her, telling her that she can no longer ride her horse where she's been riding for over 45 years. Some of those guys are mean. If they catch a non-members truck on their lease, they'll slash the tires. Anyhow, all these guys must have a nice 4WD truck AND the latest & greatest 4-wheeler type off-road vehicles, with required trailers. Then theirs guns & ammo, mostly for target practice, since they very seldom even see a deer they can get a shot at. Most now buy & set up game cameras, and/or put out lots of deer corn. Then lots of 'em camp out in the woods, so they gotta have nice RV's of some sort. And they gotta buy food & beer. Hey, deer hunting nowadays ain't cheap, if you're gonna socialize with the the other guys, & have all the same equipment they got. 

And, lots of guys fish in the Spring & Summer, then hunt in the Fall & Winter. 

A guy can do lots of low budget no-box bracket racing, for less money than many spend on hunting or fishing.

In case some are not familiar with the term "no-box", it means that to run that class, you can not use an electronic "delay" box in your car.

Our local track calls the class "No-E", which means no electronics. That includes delay boxes & trans brakes. I call it the "footbraker" class, because you hold the car on the starting line with your foot on the brake pedal, rather than with your thumb on the trans brake button.

As for an estimate of what it will cost to bracket race, on a regular basis, the first thing you'll need is a decent, reliable truck, big enuff to safely pull a trailer/race car. I think most car guys already have a pickup of some sort. At least in my area they do. Lots of gals have trucks, too. So, for some, the truck will not be an extra expense. For others, they may have to move up to a bigger truck, OR switch from a late model car to a late model truck, for their family daily driver. Right now, we only have one daily driver. It's an '06 Tacoma. It has plenty of power to pull a trailer, but is not rated to pull that much weight. So, I'm hoping TJ will agree to upgrading to a bigger 4-door truck. It'll be dual-purpose, DD & race car tow truck. I think she'll go for it. She knows how much racing means to me, because she was with me from before I even bought my first GTO, in '69. She was there when I started racing that GTO, in '73, riding in the '68 Caddy I towed it to the track with. Then she started racing a '68 Bird in '74, and raced 'til '88, winning lots of races, herself. So, she's been there & done it, & knows why I like it. 

Next thing you'll need is a decent car hauling trailer. New, all metal ones are now around $3k. But, if you look around, you can usually find a decent used one for less than $2k. The used ones will usually need 4 new tires, since most of these are never used much, and the tires will dry rot. Need 4 good tires on the ground & a good spare with you at all times. I always tried to carry 2 good spares for our cars, trucks, & trailers. But, were usually gone over 100 miles from home, for the entire weekend, at 2 different tracks. Better to have 'em & not need 'em, than vice versa. 

Then, of course, you'll need a race car. I figure you can buy a ready to race car for $10k or less. If you are not real particular about what kind of car you start with, you can probably find decent one for closer to $5k than $10k. Now, once you get the car race ready, & make a few races, then you can make other major decisions, such as whether you wanna upgrade that car, or sell it & buy something else, or if you even wanna continue racing. If you get into it cheap, then decide it's not for you, then you can sell your stuff, & just chalk it up to experience. If you don't like it, at least you can say you tried it. If you never try it, you'll never know.

Not every race is fun. You'll have mechanical problems at some races. The car will do good & you won't, at some races. Oh but, when both you and the car do good, & you win the race, to me, there is just no feeling quite like it. Because there are so many races where things don't go right, I started using the phrase, "You gotta love it.", meaning that if you don't love it, you won't do everything that is required to continue doing it. 

No, it's not for everybody. But, for a very few, it's about the most fun you can have, with a car. 

You can also make some good friends, at most tracks. We were not very popular with most of the Chevy guys at our local track. They had 3 things against us, Pontiacs, a female driver, and the fact that we won so many races, with our Pontiacs. We loved it ! They didn't. The racers at other tracks were more friendly to us.

Didn't see that you ended the thread, before i posted this. Not my intention to offend anyone. So, I apologize for anything I said here that anybody didn't like !


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