# RAR manifolds vs Header's sound



## JohnnyGTO67 (Apr 16, 2021)

I've viewed the comparisons in several threads, but I am genuinely curious to know what the sound difference between the RAR manifolds and, let's say, Doug's long tube headers.

I'm at a crossroads---to be honest I would sacrifice fitment and headaches if there was a large disparity in sound. 

The louder the better, fyi


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## integrity6987 (May 10, 2017)

w/ stock RA manifolds:


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## JohnnyGTO67 (Apr 16, 2021)

integrity6987 said:


> w/ stock RA manifolds:


This is great! I've been trying to find this! Thank you


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Ugh... It's not so simple to nail this down. My 66 Lemans with turbos and stock manifolds was loud!!!!! My 70 Vette with manifolds and turbos was loud!!! My old 67 with headers and bullets was loud!
My current 67 with Dougs, 2.5's, and Flowmaster 40's is TOO FLIPPING QUIET! Im on my 3rd set of mufflers in 6 months, and Ive also removed the x pipe. This car should be violently loud, and it's not.

Don;t get me wrong, outside it sounds great... even more so when I get on it... but when I start it and rev it, I all but get laughed at.

However... I do have an odd cam and a full roller motor, so while theres no data on it, Im starting to suspect that my cam LSA and 4/7 swap have something to do with my quiet idle.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

The moral is, headers arent always loud and manifolds arent always quiet.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> The moral is, headers arent always loud and manifolds arent always quiet.


You can't fool us, you did an LS swap over the weekend, didn't you. Just too quiet.

Add 3" pipes, mufflers in front of the rear axle, and turn downs, and see what you get. Muffler placement can have a big affect on sound. When I was younger, I added turbo mufflers to my '54 Buick with its stock 322CI engine. I placed them close up front, about under my feet as I recall. Didn't have any problems attracting the cops. Engine had a definite loud drone/sound that was way bigger than the engine was.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

As you know, Ive been fighting this issue for months! Im really suspecting my LSA and 4/7 swap cam to be a BIG contributor to my sports car car sounding exhaust... and I think you at least "kind of" agree with me.

I have had 3 sets of stright through mufflers and it's still quiet. 

Id do turn downs, but Im worried about the effects of exhaust gas on the under carriage... and I likke the way tail pipes look!


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## JohnnyGTO67 (Apr 16, 2021)

Well Gents,

At the 11th hour I changed my mind and said screw it to easy installation and less headache. I called off my RAR manifolds and went with Doug's headers.

I read an opinion by Pontiac Jim and it stuck with me---out of context---when I open up my hood I don't want cast manifolds, I want the real deal, regardless of headaches. 

Now to find an exhaust to compliment. 

Cheers


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

JohnnyGTO67 said:


> Well Gents,
> 
> At the 11th hour I changed my mind and said screw it to easy installation and less headache. I called off my RAR manifolds and went with Doug's headers.
> 
> ...


Doug's are a good choice. Easier to install if an automatic than 4-speed. You will have to unbolt the starter and your motor mount and lift the engine up to get them in, especially the driver's side having the steering box. May not need to on the passenger side, but you want to remove the oil filter. Be aware of the fan & distributor so you don't smack anything by raising it too high. As I recall from other's experiences, the passenger side isn't as big a problem.

Here is a post from BearGFR. His car is a 1969, so it is a little different, but some aspects of the header installation may apply.

"
First things first. Pontiac headers "that are just bolt on with no changes having to be made to any part of the car" simply do not exist, so you're going to have to give that idea up if you're going to run headers. I'm running Doug's round port headers on my '69, and they fit "reasonably well" but I had to 1) relocate the brake distribution valve on the drivers side from the inside of the frame to the top of the frame, 2) turn one of the passenger side lower control arm bolts around "backwards" to try to get enough room between one of the header tubes and the bolt head. 3) I can't run a stock Pontiac oil filter because the passenger side header tubes run directly under it and there's not enough space for the stock full-length filter. I have to run a shorter oil filter, and when I change the filter I have to put a pile o' rags around that header otherwise it's going to dump oil all over, and down in between, the header tubes. Yes they get hot enough to ignite the oil and cause a fire. Ask me how I know that.

Traditionally also, you're going to have these problems: Headers tend to rust. The day you install them, before you fire up the car, is the best that they're ever going to look. It'll all be downhill after that. Header flanges tend to leak where they mount to the cylinder head and the mounting bolts tend to loosen over time. All of them. You can mitigate that to a degree by using high quality gaskets (like RemFlex) and 'special' header bolts with locking heads on them but all you'll really accomplish is just not having to mess with them "as often"."


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Whoa...remind me again why would anyone want to go through this ? Love being tortured? You can get about ten different colors for manifolds from KBS and mine still look great after 3 yrs, installed them while the engine was on the stand, motor fell into the bay...took me no time at all and did it alone. I did headers once on my '67 and never again, they hit the rag joint too plus you can hardly see them on Pontiacs...just my opinion that's all but glad it's not me, good luck 👍


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## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

Baaad65 said:


> Whoa...remind me again why would anyone want to go through this ? Love being tortured? You can get about ten different colors for manifolds from KBS and mine still look great after 3 yrs, installed them while the engine was on the stand, motor fell into the bay...took me no time at all and did it alone. I did headers once on my '67 and never again, they hit the rag joint too plus you can hardly see them on Pontiacs...just my opinion that's all but glad it's not me, good luck 👍


I agree with this.
Sound quality is a myriad of variables. Headers vs manifolds is one of a 100 of them.
As far as looks go, Baaad65 is right on. That isn't a Chevy in there, the headers are basically under the head. There isn't a ton to see...unless you're looking at the car from the side....you might see them hanging below the undercarriage.
Whichever way you go, may the automotive gods smile upon your project!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Agreed, and the collector could cause clearance problems plus I don't think you're losing any horses until after 5000 rpms with the 2.5 " manifolds. Mine could be a little louder but I don't think I'm going to eliminate the X pipe, maybe I should have went with the Pypes Street Pro muffler instead of the Race Pro but that's what the tech at Pypes recommended.


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## JohnnyGTO67 (Apr 16, 2021)

Baaad65 said:


> Agreed, and the collector could cause clearance problems plus I don't think you're losing any horses until after 5000 rpms with the 2.5 " manifolds. Mine could be a little louder but I don't think I'm going to eliminate the X pipe, maybe I should have went with the Pypes Street Pro muffler instead of the Race Pro but that's what the tech at Pypes recommended.


I appreciate your input on this. Since I'm going full frame off with a very fresh engine I figured what the hell--go big or go home. Headers seem like the optimum choice as I like the idea of electric cutouts purely for showing off.

I will report back on my headaches in due time. To bad Butler or Ames can't sell us the headers pre-dented to take away the cringe of beating a $700 piece of metal art.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Right? Well that should be easier then, I thought about cutouts for some sh..s and giggles, the Doug's seemed like the ticket but I have other things that I need first.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Not sure if this helps your decision but the RARE manifolds have been on back order forever. I ordered a set in March and have not received them yet. I ended up using my old manifolds to get the engine installed and broken in before the winter this year. I am going to give it until late winter and if they are still a no show, I will cancel and either go with Doug's or the Pypes version of the manifolds. I would be more concerned if they had charged my card for them. I really don't want to go with headers because of all the headaches, especially since my car has a 4 speed, but have the winter to think about it.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Idk how things are now but I ordered mine through Butler on a black Friday sale and when I got them the box said Pypes, I think they're all the same as long as they're 2.5" and mine are three bolt...stud actually, did you try Ram Air Restorations ? They're about an hour away from me and he has some good stuff, Ebay?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

JohnnyGTO67 said:


> I appreciate your input on this. Since I'm going full frame off with a very fresh engine I figured what the hell--go big or go home. Headers seem like the optimum choice as I like the idea of electric cutouts purely for showing off.
> 
> I will report back on my headaches in due time. To bad Butler or Ames can't sell us the headers pre-dented to take away the cringe of beating a $700 piece of metal art.



Yes, "go big or go home." Just something about headers - its a "cool" factor and what everyone did "back in the day." Just to finalize your choice - Stand in front of a mirror. Now say, "Cast Iron Manifolds." Now say, "Headers." Which one was said with a "cool" attitude? Makes the choice pretty easy in my book.

I also went with cutouts for my build. There are different styles in how the flap closes - which also dictates pricing. You can go manual or electric, with some electrics either being open/closed and others that you can adjust the amount of open if you want to play around with tone/loudness.

I went with Doug's Cut-Outs because of the flap closing design versus the "throttle blade" type design. I felt the Doug's would seal better. If the throttle blade types were to get corrosion/dirt or even carbon build up on them, *my thinking/opinion* is they may not seal tightly and cause a leak.









Doug's Headers DEC300A Electric Cut-Out 3


Highlights Additional Information Emissions Code Highlights Stainless steel construction electric exhaust cut-outs in 2 1/4" 2 1/2" and 3" diameters Rugged gear reduction 12 volt DC motor and a rotating gate for a leak proof seal A pre-wired harness with an illuminated rocker switch is supplied...




pertronixbrands.com





Here is a Youtube Video that explains more:






And, I believe the problem with the earlier versions, plastic gears, has been fixed on the later versions. However, just to CYA, I did get a set of steel gears as mentioned in this "fix" video and have them on hand. Cheap enough for the electric motors which you will scavenge the steel gears out of if needed. Figured even if I don't have any immediate issues, I'll have some replacement gears when I re-restore my car in 2075!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Idk that's a tough call considering all the headaches with headers, they do look cool what you can see of them and if you get a good coating that keeps them looking good, no real horsepower gain....make a list of pros and cons then Google images both ways and you'll know what look you want 👍


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Baaad65 said:


> Idk how things are now but I ordered mine through Butler on a black Friday sale and when I got them the box said Pypes, I think they're all the same as long as they're 2.5" and mine are three bolt...stud actually, did you try Ram Air Restorations ? They're about an hour away from me and he has some good stuff, Ebay?


Mine were ordered from Ram Air Restorations. They have a bock log at their forge. Those must be the ones you got if they had the 2.5 inch collectors. Maybe Butler used whatever box they had hanging around? I've run into that with them before but always get what I ordered from them, just packaging can be odd. The Pypes are closer to factory at 2.25 inch. I reached out to Butler months ago and they told me they were on back order for them too.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Wow than it's everyone and everything...Pypes has a 2.5".


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