# Running hot - seemingly out of options



## SPQR (Oct 2, 2020)

Hello! I know this topic has been discussed ad nausem but one more question, please. Car is 1967 400/335. Engine just fully rebuilt. Car ran hot before rebuild. Runs hot after rebuild. New 4 aluminum radiator. New EFI. New high volume water pump. Timing seems to be set optimally. Water wetter. Now that temps are getting warmer, runs hotter. At 55, temp around 210...but stopped at light or stop and go traffic, temp shoots up immediately to 230 or so....perhaps more but I haven't put myself in a position where it could. Electric fans didn't help. Tried various thermostats, didn't help. So, desperation. Has anyone tried waterless coolant like Evans? Any meaningful results? As always, thank you.


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## IceBolt (Jul 28, 2020)

Had same issue with my '67 / 400 ci / 335 HP - i used a "Cool Case" kit from Ames (new radiator, thermostat, fan, clutch and high flow water pump); also added overflow radiator. Runs cooler now.

The other issue is that my guages were not reading properly; many of them need really good ground to engine for proper reading (digital ones). If you have a Sniper EFI, does the computer water temp read the same as your other one? Mine didn't until i fix the ground issue.


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## SPQR (Oct 2, 2020)

Thanks for the quick response. You're right about the OEM temp - way too high. But, the EFI readout looks realistic. May I ask what kinds of temps you are seeing now and the outside temp? Thank you!


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

Have you tried a laser temp gauge? You can see if water is flowing through the radiator at temp and verify the temps on your oem gauge are realistic. They have lots of uses.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Divider plate clearance....

Bear


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Not all radiators are created equal. Cold Case and Be Cool, are top notch, professional products. The crap on Amazon is aluminum, and that's about it.
High flow thermostat, and drill three 3/16 holes in it.
Add an engine oil cooler. Cheap, easy, substantial benefits


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## BLK69JUDGE (Jun 10, 2010)

are you running ac pulleys ??? big crank small water pump
or is the water pump and crank pulleys the same size basically ?
they are different diameter than non ac ,,,, and provide more water pump rpm


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## GTO44 (Apr 11, 2016)

Not all electric fans are created equal as well. Do the fans have a shroud or are they just zip tied to the radiator? Whats the fans size and how many CFM do they pull?

Also Whats your idle and cruise timing set at?


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## Datold1 (Nov 27, 2018)

SPQR said:


> Hello! I know this topic has been discussed ad nausem but one more question, please. Car is 1967 400/335. Engine just fully rebuilt. Car ran hot before rebuild. Runs hot after rebuild. New 4 aluminum radiator. New EFI. New high volume water pump. Timing seems to be set optimally. Water wetter. Now that temps are getting warmer, runs hotter. At 55, temp around 210...but stopped at light or stop and go traffic, temp shoots up immediately to 230 or so....perhaps more but I haven't put myself in a position where it could. Electric fans didn't help. Tried various thermostats, didn't help. So, desperation. Has anyone tried waterless coolant like Evans? Any meaningful results? As always, thank you.


I fought this same problem on a 66 389. Went through everything like you water pump,radiator, water wetter etc. Finally found 2 things;1 Ran thermal imaging over engine and radiator- found center cores of radiator was blocked off with solder from factory, water flowed great but wasn't allowed to flow down through cores for more cooling. 2. Be sure plates behind water pump are set close to impeller . Mine were 5/16" and that was to much. I put the one with the large hole between 2 pieces of 1"x8" and squeezed it down until the impeller would almost rubbed. Then the car ran very cool.


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## Jim K (Nov 17, 2020)

There are so many different things that can cause high temps.. Bear mentioned on problem that is often over looked..
Another issue is sometimes the one of the sleeves (or both) gets left out between the water pump and timing chain cover.








Is your fan shroud installed?
Checking your temp at the thermostat housing with a laser thermometer will help trouble shoot. (as well as other places on the engine and radiator)
You mentioned electric fans.. My experience with those has been horrible at best..
A good mechanical fan with a good fan clutch and fan shroud should be all you need..
Another possibility is a faulty water temp sending unit..
there are lots of places to check.
Can you upload a pic of your engine compartment around the radiator/front of the engine?


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## Jim K (Nov 17, 2020)

Jim K said:


> There are so many different things that can cause high temps.. Bear mentioned on problem that is often over looked..
> Another issue is sometimes the one of the sleeves (or both) gets left out between the water pump and timing chain cover.
> View attachment 142219
> 
> ...


Forget the part about the sleeves.. They only come into play on 11 bolt water pumps not used until 69. Unless you have an 11 bolt water pump.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

SPQR said:


> Hello! I know this topic has been discussed ad nausem but one more question, please. Car is 1967 400/335. Engine just fully rebuilt. Car ran hot before rebuild. Runs hot after rebuild. New 4 aluminum radiator. New EFI. New high volume water pump. Timing seems to be set optimally. Water wetter. Now that temps are getting warmer, runs hotter. At 55, temp around 210...but stopped at light or stop and go traffic, temp shoots up immediately to 230 or so....perhaps more but I haven't put myself in a position where it could. Electric fans didn't help. Tried various thermostats, didn't help. So, desperation. Has anyone tried waterless coolant like Evans? Any meaningful results? As always, thank you.


A lot of info, bit still not enough.

Did you rebuild the engine back to the stock 335HP rating, or go bigger?

Still use the "670" heads and stock compression?

Stock points distributor?


Gotta know *EXACTLY* what your initial timing is, what your total timing is, at what RPM total timing is achieved, and how much additional timing do you get from the vacuum advance can.

Let's start there and we can then move to the next round of questions.


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

67 should have the 8 bolt pump. There are 2 divider plates. the first one should be centered on the impeller, laterally, to split the flow in half ,left and right to the intake ports on the block. the rear should be tucked up tight as possible the the impeller.
stand the pump on its nose. Lay the plates ,on the pump ,in order.Take a good look at it . You will see what I am talking about.
I went through the same thing on my 64.


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

1963-68 Pontiac (All V8) Water Pump Divider Plates 2pc


1963-68 Pontiac (All V8) Water Pump Divider Plates 2pc




www.inlinetube.com





Funny thing is , the plate in the front of the picture is actually the rear plate.
The large diameter hole in the other plate "shrouds " the impeller and should divide the impeller equally


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Good advice all around, work the temp gun. Shrouds matter, and electric fans need shrouds too. Spiking at idle is directly related to air flow from fans, inadequate if it gets too hot...

a good temperature activated clutch fan properly shrouded may help. But like PJ said your timing matters especially at idle. Too retarded causes hotter exhaust and thereby heats up everything...a thermostat partially stuck can give you many issues too, if you open the system replace it. Even a new one can be bad.


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## SPQR (Oct 2, 2020)

67ventwindow said:


> Have you tried a laser temp gauge? You can see if water is flowing through the radiator at temp and verify the temps on your oem gauge are realistic. They have lots of uses.


I have and readings are consistent with EFI reading. Thanks!


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## SPQR (Oct 2, 2020)

BearGFR said:


> Divider plate clearance....
> 
> Bear


Hi Bear, adjusted, checked, and rechecked. They look good. Thank you.


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## SPQR (Oct 2, 2020)

armyadarkness said:


> Not all radiators are created equal. Cold Case and Be Cool, are top notch, professional products. The crap on Amazon is aluminum, and that's about it.
> High flow thermostat, and drill three 3/16 holes in it.
> Add an engine oil cooler. Cheap, easy, substantial benefits


1. I have a Holley Frostbite 3 row, rated by Holley as capable of handling 700 hp. My engine is standard 400/335. 
2. High flow thermostat. I've read various opinions about pro/con and am uncertain. I'm not refuting you but my logic is that hi flow has coolant more quickly pass through the radiator giving it less time to cool. Where am I wrong?
3. I had not thought of an engine oil cooler and like that idea very much. Looking into it!
Thank you. Much appreciated!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

There are MANY opinions, rituals, and practices when it comes to anything cars. Cooling is no exception. In my experience, a clean and well designed system always works well. And in my experience, when that isn't true, then something else is wrong.

I've heard that water pump impellers make a big difference with Pontiac. Are you using a good, name brand pump, or a parts chain rebuild?

As for the thermostat, bypass holes shouldnt make or break your system... However, as I mentioned, when all else is right, they can add to efficient operation. It's not likely that they will cure your issue.


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## SPQR (Oct 2, 2020)

Datold1 said:


> I fought this same problem on a 66 389. Went through everything like you water pump,radiator, water wetter etc. Finally found 2 things;1 Ran thermal imaging over engine and radiator- found center cores of radiator was blocked off with solder from factory, water flowed great but wasn't allowed to flow down through cores for more cooling. 2. Be sure plates behind water pump are set close to impeller . Mine were 5/16" and that was to much. I put the one with the large hole between 2 pieces of 1"x8" and squeezed it down until the impeller would almost rubbed. Then the car ran very cool.


The plates have been checked and rechecked but I don't know the distance from the impeller off hand. Would you help me out with the 2 pieces of 1" x 8"? I don't follow that. Thank you!


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## SPQR (Oct 2, 2020)

armyadarkness said:


> There are MANY opinions, rituals, and practices when it comes to anything cars. Cooling is no exception. In my experience, a clean and well designed system always works well. And in my experience, when that isn't true, then something else is wrong.
> 
> I've heard that water pump impellers make a big difference with Pontiac. Are you using a good, name brand pump, or a parts chain rebuild?
> 
> As for the thermostat, bypass holes shouldnt make or break your system... However, as I mentioned, when all else is right, they can add to efficient operation. It's not likely that they will cure your issue.


Thank you! Pump is ACDelco.


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## SPQR (Oct 2, 2020)

Lemans guy said:


> Good advice all around, work the temp gun. Shrouds matter, and electric fans need shrouds too. Spiking at idle is directly related to air flow from fans, inadequate if it gets too hot...
> 
> a good temperature activated clutch fan properly shrouded may help. But like PJ said your timing matters especially at idle. Too retarded causes hotter exhaust and thereby heats up everything...a thermostat partially stuck can give you many issues too, if you open the system replace it. Even a new one can be bad.


Thank you!


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## SPQR (Oct 2, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> A lot of info, bit still not enough.
> 
> Did you rebuild the engine back to the stock 335HP rating, or go bigger?
> 
> ...


Thank you for the response!
Rebuild is stock 335.
Heads are 670 and stock compression.
Distributor is Pertronix electronic
Gotta check on the timing. I'll get back with you.

Thanks again!


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## SPQR (Oct 2, 2020)

Jim K said:


> There are so many different things that can cause high temps.. Bear mentioned on problem that is often over looked..
> Another issue is sometimes the one of the sleeves (or both) gets left out between the water pump and timing chain cover.
> View attachment 142219
> 
> ...


Hello! The current configuration is OEM with shroud installed and fan about half way under shroud. Electronic fans didn't help even with shroud. I'll take a pic and come back. Thank you.


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## SPQR (Oct 2, 2020)

GTO44 said:


> Not all electric fans are created equal as well. Do the fans have a shroud or are they just zip tied to the radiator? Whats the fans size and how many CFM do they pull?
> 
> Also Whats your idle and cruise timing set at?


Electric fans with shroud were pulled. Back to OEM setup. I'll be checking on the timing. Thanks!


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## SPQR (Oct 2, 2020)

BLK69JUDGE said:


> are you running ac pulleys ??? big crank small water pump
> or is the water pump and crank pulleys the same size basically ?
> they are different diameter than non ac ,,,, and provide more water pump rpm


Hello and thank you. Pulleys are AC...one big, one smaller


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

I beleave 1x8 that was the technique he was using to flatten the plate to get the clearance required. When you check the radiator temp is there any hot or coldspots on the radiator? When you filled the radiator. Did you see good flow after the thermostat open?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

SPQR said:


> The plates have been checked and rechecked but I don't know the distance from the impeller off hand. Would you help me out with the 2 pieces of 1" x 8"? I don't follow that. Thank you!


The way I did mine was to remove the pump, secure it in a vise (carefully), and lay the plate onto the pump with no gasket between the plate and the pump. "Work" the plate with a suitable hammer until it's just barely touching the pump impeller all the way around. When you reinstall with the gasket in place, clearance will be perfect.

Bear


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

SPQR said:


> 1. I have a Holley Frostbite 3 row, rated by Holley as capable of handling 700 hp. My engine is standard 400/335.
> 2. High flow thermostat. I've read various opinions about pro/con and am uncertain. I'm not refuting you but my logic is that hi flow has coolant more quickly pass through the radiator giving it less time to cool. Where am I wrong?
> 3. I had not thought of an engine oil cooler and like that idea very much. Looking into it!
> Thank you. Much appreciated!


Not sure where the speed of the coolant BS originally surfaced on the internet. There are those who don't use a thermostat and simply use a restrictor disk, or even a large washer without issue. I hope this post puts all the "too fast" coolant flow BS to rest.

From the Stant thermostat website:
*"Thermostat Failures*
A thermostat fails to “open” if the return spring breaks or debris prevents the thermostat valve from fully seating or closing; allowing a steady flow of coolant to the radiator, *overcooling* the engine - This results in poor warm up and heater performance, increased engine emissions and reduced fuel economy"

From Hot Rod Magazine:

"If the coolant temperature never increases up to normal operating temperature, it is likely your thermostat is stuck in the open position. If you know your thermostat is opening but your cooling system still *is running a warmer than it should*, a solution might be to switch to a high-flow thermostat." 

And Finally, from the H.A.M.B. website, posted by Ebbsspeed:

*"Myths*

For those that cling tenaciously to myths, I am going to take one last crack at forever dispelling the Granddaddy of them all when it comes to cooling systems.

The myth is stated as either:



Coolant can be pumped too fast through the engine for it to absorb enough heat, or
Coolant can be pumped too fast through the radiator for it to cool properly, or
Cooling can be improved by slowing the flow of coolant through the radiator so it cools more completely.
NONE of these is true. The simple truth is that higher coolant flow will ALWAYS result in higher heat transfer and improved cooling system performance.

The reason the myth is so persistent, is that: a) without knowledge of fluid dynamics and laws of thermal conduction it does make a kind of intuitive sense and b) it is based on a tiny kernel of truth, but that kernel of truth does not explain the overall system behaviour and so, interpreted out of context, leads to a completely erroneous conclusion.

So, let's start with the tiny nugget of truth. If you had a sealed rad (no flow) full of hot coolant, and subjected that rad to airflow, yes, the longer you left the coolant in the rad, the more it would cool. However, if you were to plot that cooling over time, you would find that the RATE at which the cooling takes place is an exponential curve that decreases with the temperature difference between the hot coolant and the air. Put another way - when the temperature difference (delta-T) between the hot coolant and the airflow is large, heat transfer (cooling) initially takes place very, very quickly (almost instantaneously). But as that happens, and the coolant cools, the delta-T becomes less, and the RATE at which further cooling happens gets less and less until the point where the coolant and air are almost the same temperature and continued cooling takes a very long time. This is Newton's law of cooling. To illustrate this, recall my "quenching steel in a bucket" analogy.

A good example of this law can be seen when quenching a red-hot piece of steel in a bucket of water. At first, the temperature difference (delta-T) between the red-hot steel and the water is huge - therefore the initial heat transfer occurs at a great rate - the steel initially cools very fast - almost instantaneously. However, after this initial cooling, the delta-T is much smaller, so the remaining cooling occurs much more slowly. If you removed the steel after a second or two - it has cooled a lot - but it will still be warm. To continue cooling the steel to the temp. of the water, you have to leave it in there quite a bit longer - because as it cools - the *rate* of cooling continually decreases as well. In short - initial cooling is fast, but subsequent cooling occurs more and more slowly until cooling that last little bit takes a long time.

So what does this mean? Basically it means, the longer the coolant stays in the rad, the *less efficient* the cooling that takes place is - to the point that the rate of cooling is so slow as to be *detrimental to overall system cooling*. Better to dump the big load of heat right away and go back quickly for another load than hang about waiting for a last little bit of insignificant cooling to happen."

*From Water Pump Manufacturer Flow Kooler:

Doesn't coolant need more time in the radiator to cool?

No.* But a lot of people still think so. We have come up with some explanations for the Doubting Thomas.

*Debunking the I Can Have It Both Ways Theory*

The water has to have "time to cool" argument is most common one we hear. In a closed loop system if you keep the fluid in the heat exchanger you are simultaneously keeping it in the block longer. Unfortunately, the block is the part that is generating the heat. Sending hot coolant from your source (engine) through the heat exchanger (radiator) to the sink (air) will transfer heat as long as there is a temperature difference between the source and sink. The engine is still generating heat the whole time so why keep the coolant there any longer than you have to.

*Debunking The Conscientious Electron Theory*

We hear that the coolant has to stay in the system longer to cool but what is heat transfer really but conduction, convection and radiation of electrons. The fluid in your system transfers those electrons based principally on the source-sink differential and the exchange material's transfer rate. An electron moves at varying speeds - Bohr's model has it moving at 2 million meter/second and with a mere 11 million eV boost you can get an electron to 99.9% of the speed of light. Though they move at varying speeds physicists accept that electrons move fast - really really fast. Far faster than the flow rate of the water pump. Your engine coolant's electrons do not know (or care) how fast you send them through the system - they just knows that the source is hotter than the sink and off they go.

*Debunking Grandpa's Flathead Theory*

"But wait a minute, I know Grandpa used to put washers in his flathead to slow the flow and cool his engine." We know people did this too. They still do it but the cooling benefit is not from the slower flow but the increase in dynamic pressure in the block that builds from the restriction. Consider that Grandpa had two flathead water pumps sending twice the volume through the same size radiator core as the Model B 4 cylinder. Too much flow in this no pressure system results in fluid loss. Slowing flow rate helps prevent that. At some point Grandpa maxed out the throughput and began building pressure in his block. Increasing block pressure helps reduce the onset of hot spots on his cylinder walls and formation of steam pockets in his block. This is a real benefit and does help cooling but is only realized when throughput nears capacity or is at capacity. While these restrictions may make sense when your rpm is excessive or your flow rate exceeds your heat exchanger throughput, they do not make sense for most applications. If you doubt this thinking then try this simple Ask Dr. Science experiment; clamp off the lower hose while you watch your temp gauge. Hopefully, you will debunk Grandpa's theory yourself before you experience vapor lock and melt your engine.

Flow restriction is not all bad if it serves to prevent cavitation. Cavitation occurs when a pump turns so fast that you generate lower pressure and air bubbles or vapor forms. These bubbles eventually implode and damage the engine block wall and impeller. Rapidly spinning the impeller can literally rip the air from water but may not actually move the fluid, it's tantamount to turning an eggbeater in a paint bucket. Restricting the fluid flow to raise system pressure in the block may help prevent cavitation at higher RPM but is it necessary for most vehicles? Probably not.

Most vehicles do not need to restrict flow because they do not reach or sustain high RPM. Additionally, thin aluminum radiators already restrict by design e.g. fewer rows of thinner tubes. Restrict it further and you may as well hose clamp the lower radiator hose and we know how that works out. When you face Grandpa on the track you may want your washers, otherwise, keep them in the toolkit.

Simply put, you have a far better chance of keeping your cool with greater flow rate through your heat exchanger and exiting the system than holding it in your heat exchanger while generating heat in your engine block.
*2. Low Flow Luddites or..."the guy at the shop said"*
When we are chasing an overheating problem, its common to seek help and who better than the guy sitting at the counter in a parts house or the countless experts begging to be heard on internet forums. They are generally excellent credentialed sources but we sometimes meet a low flow believer who thinks heat exchange is determined by how long the fluid stays in the block and how long it stays in the radiator. We fall back on simple logic. FlowKooler pumps achieve higher flow rates through a better impeller design. The high flow rates are seen far earlier on the rpm curve than OEM and self-professed "performance" pumps which use OEM-like impellers. The flow is more efficient builds block pressure sooner which helps in preventing cavitation. All good stuff which no one would refute. The low flow proponent' s argument of "too fast" begins to falls down when we discuss flow itself. If spun fast enough, even the most poorly designed stamped steel impellers will achieve the same hi flow flow rates. Granted they may cavitate, they may pump less efficiently and it will always occur at higher rpms. The point here is whether a discount design pump was spun at hi rpms or our well designed pump was spun under normal driving conditions; flow is flow. Can it be logically argued that a hi flow pump flowed coolant too fast if an OEM pump achieves the same flow rates. No, it cannot."


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Lemans guy,"Spiking at idle is directly related to air flow from fans, inadequate if it gets too hot... "

PJ: Not necessarily. Could be timing issues - vacuum advance not pulling in high enough when at idle? May not be working at all?

Not all aluminum radiators are created equal either. It is all about surface area and the size of the tubes used on the aluminum radiator. 4-core may actually be a restriction as most good aluminum radiators are good for high performance applications with only a 2-core. The 2 core can have a larger tube size, thus more surface area to cool versus a 4-core with small tubing. The stack of coring in a 4-core can be a restriction under low air flow circumstances, so you may need a fan that pulls a lot of CFM's at idle/lower speeds. This is what you can get from an aftermarket flex fan - much more CFM's at lower speeds but flatten out as the speeds increase. The downside, if it matters, is that these fans do make more noise, or a whirring sound, that some do not like.

You can test low speed air flow through the radiator by placing a piece of notebook paper on the front of the core and the fan should pull enough air through it to keep the paper stuck to and held onto the radiator core.

No mention of exhaust, or exhaust flow. Too small of an exhaust pipe or those super quiet restrictive mufflers can choke flow and cause heating problems, as can a stuck "butterfly" valve in the factory cast iron exhaust manifold IF so equipped.

May be the EFI air/fuel setting is too lean. Due to the extra oxygen in the ethanol molecule, you need more fuel and less air (generally richer-not leaner AFR) to achieve the same results. 91 octane E10 has a stochiometric ratio of 14.08:1 whereas non-ethanol would be 14.7:1. So the entire air/fuel range needs to be corrected. However, my example is for 91/93 octane and the factory 335HP engine shows to be 10.75 compression and may need more octane - but we did have a recent member/post who ran the lower octane by making timing adjustments.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

SPQR said:


> 3. I had not thought of an engine oil cooler and like that idea very much. Looking into it!
> Thank you. Much appreciated!


Cool oil is one of the best things that you can do for your engine. A cooler dramatically drops oil and engine temps, it adds life to the engine, and it speeds up oil changes, too! Plus you can do the remote filter mount and add the cooler in-line, which makes it all cheap, tidy, and now you can change your filter from under the hood.


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## Jim K (Nov 17, 2020)

Pontiac Jim hit on a point I was just going to post about as I hadn't seen it mentioned.. AFR.. A lean motor will run a fair amount hotter..
An interesting article from Hot Rod Mag.. A HP Pontiac with a problem very similar to yours. One thing they did touch on was pulley diameter, as well as getting into the nitty gritty of cylinder head heat transfer, etc..
They do seem to be almost "advertising" for a liquid product even though this was a test and result, but still a lot of good info. I'm always leery of a manufacturer making "scientific" or "factual" statements as the bottom line is they are trying to sell a product. I always try to source 3rd party independent sources for any research and then compare to manufacturers claims.
Pontiac Engine Cooling System Upgrade - High Performance Pontiac


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## Crayons (Apr 8, 2021)

I haven’t seen this in any of the previous posts. What about the lower Radiator Hose? Does it have the spring in it? Is it constricting at all when the thermostat opens? When hot, that lower hose can collapse very easily... just food for thought. Hope this helps.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Good points, what I should have said is if the car was normally running cool,..and then one experienced it getting too hot at idle...a common problem.....not totally exclusive.....is a bad fan clutch or or air flow.

I think the OP never had this running cool ever, so your point is well taken and described. And yes retarded timing can make an engine run hotter.....But first all cooling system components must be right....advancing timing when other cooling system components are not right won’t do much.

A lot of these cars ran with retarded timing originally, with base at 4 or 6, for the purpose of burning off the NO at idle yet still would run within temp spec. Increasing the timing advance would make it run a bit cooler, but the retarded timing (as we see it today) will not spike the temp as much as a bad fan clutch.

lots to consider, and you need all things working together......


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Whew PJ take a breath you must have gotten carpultunal typing that...what a boatload of great information idk how you do it but kudos and to everyone else, that's why I joined...I have had temperature issues too and started buying into the keep the water in longer theory so I swapped the 160 high flow stat for a 180 high flow so do you think that will have any negative effects? My problem is always sitting still or moving really slow on a hot day.


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## SLSTEVE (Dec 8, 2020)

SPQR said:


> Hello! I know this topic has been discussed ad nausem but one more question, please. Car is 1967 400/335. Engine just fully rebuilt. Car ran hot before rebuild. Runs hot after rebuild. New 4 aluminum radiator. New EFI. New high volume water pump. Timing seems to be set optimally. Water wetter. Now that temps are getting warmer, runs hotter. At 55, temp around 210...but stopped at light or stop and go traffic, temp shoots up immediately to 230 or so....perhaps more but I haven't put myself in a position where it could. Electric fans didn't help. Tried various thermostats, didn't help. So, desperation. Has anyone tried waterless coolant like Evans? Any meaningful results? As always, thank you.


I just talked to an old friend back home today. He just installed a newly rebuilt 455 that previously ran hot in the same car. This time he had his OE exhaust manifolds Jet Hot coated. He said before and after temperatures are amazing! The Jet Hot coating keeps the outside of the manifolds 100 degrees cooler, directing the heat down the exhaust. This keeps the engine, engine bay temperatures radically cooler. I know it’s a pain to pull exhaust manifolds but sounds like this may actually help in the overheating issue.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Also I can't believe you mentioned a model B 4 cylinder that's the car bug that bit me when I was 10 years old helping my dad take his apart for him to restore it, I think I still have Liquid Wrench embedded in my skin from 1975 ! He drove us to prom then I drove it for some weddings, it was the first stick I drove with my learners permit and I was scared to death when he pulled over and told me to drive. I had it freshened up a couple of years ago for his 82nd birthday and surprised him driving up to the house.


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## 40flier (Nov 5, 2010)

Did you have the heads CC'd? My story on a 65 WS, the 77's had been cleaned up previously. My builder called me to say I need to clean up the heads again, you're going to be 11++ CR. I had him open the combustion chambers which eliminated the cooling and pre ignition I had experienced even with a re-cored Harrison to the max, Flo-Cooler w' matched plates, shroud, retarded timing, and electric fan. Make no mistake, I lost power. These cars won't stand up to a $12k 100k mi C6 vette which will leave you spinning tires at the line. Reality is today's fuels, and 93 octane isn't guaranteed. I am old enough to have enjoyed 260 Sunoco, but yesterday's gone.


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## Greg Hill (Jul 15, 2020)

I had the same problem with my 65. Flow cooler water pump, big ass aluminum radiator, 160 degree thermostat and dual electric puller fans. This is a 40 over 455, with Butler 6x heads, about 9.5 to 1 compression. I have the fans set to come on at 180. Runs cool even on the hottest days.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Ya that ship has sailed on coating the exhaust manifolds not removing them now, to bad I didn't hear about that idea before the motor went in sounds like it's a good idea.


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## lust4speed (Jul 5, 2019)

Happy to see everyone is in agreement on slowing down coolant is a bad idea. Living only an hour from Palm Springs we get hot and is a great test bed for finding out what works and what doesn't. We have tested and proven to our satisfaction that a properly working thermostat and no thermostat both cool equally as well. What this means is that there is enough restriction in the complete cooling system that the thermostat is not the bottleneck in the system and no thermostat doesn't allow any additional flow over a fully open thermostat. So it's always a good idea to simply pull the thermostat out when testing to find cooling problems. Using the pan on the stove with dunking new thermostats and checking with a thermometer has shown that three out of four new thermostats open very late - and the expensive ones have as many problems as standard thermostats. It's not that great of idea to leave it out during cool weather, and always a good idea to put a good one back in after the testing is over. Maybe the simplest explanation of flow can simply be stated that even if the coolant is flowing twice as fast (it's not), it would return to the radiator twice as fast, and in the process the better flow gets into the nooks and crannies of the block and heads and helps eliminate hot spots.

Another often overlooked problem is the size of the bypass hole from intake crossover to the water pump. If you are running a thermostat the bypass should remain functional, but what originally started out as a hole somewhat smaller than 3/8" of an inch erodes to 1/2 to 5/8" in size. The hot coolant in the crossover needs to travel through the thermostat housing and through the radiator. The bypass hole allows coolant to short cut back into the low pressure area of the pump and return to the block to go through another heat cycle with no cooling. Figure that an enlarged hole can recirculate a third of the coolant without going through the radiator. I always round out the hole and thread it with a 3/8" pipe plug with only a 1/4" hole drilled through it. This allows necessary circulation after a cold weather start so the thermostat "reads" coolant temperature without having to wait for the block to heat the stagnant section of coolant under the thermostat. The drilled holes in the thermostat do about the same thing to allow the thermostat to read temperature, but I've found out that a couple 1/8" holes drilled in the thermostat on a really cold run can pass enough coolant to keep engine temps too cool.

Fan clutches not only wear out, some are basically defective at time of sale. The manufacturers are setting fan clutches up to start to engage when water temperature is 210° and not fully engage until 220°. It's not for everyone, but a lot of us in our area use the Severe Duty Hayden 2797 clutch fan and tweak the thermostatic coil so the clutch comes on at about 185°. Go too far and the fan stays engaged even on cool days, but get it right and it is another tool in keeping things cool. We've had a couple club members pull the severe duty clutches back off because of fan noise, but I prefer to run cool enough to keep the A/C running on the hottest days.

A/C equipped cars came equipped with a 19.5" seven blade fan - that still in place?

Did you check timing? As others have said, retarded timing generates a lot of heat. Figure your 335 HP engine had a true 10.25:1 compression ratio when new (advertised 10.75:1), and the valve job probably included a slight mill on the 670 heads bringing the compression up a little further. Kind of a loosing proposition in that timing has to be retarded to subdue detonation with that high of compression ratio and the retarded timing itself will increase heat and require retarding timing even further. I had a 455 that could only tolerate 28° total timing and it was a challenge to keep it from over heating. Mix in a little race gas so timing could be upped and it ran cool. Was a relief when we rebuilt it and lowered compression so there was no further need for expensive fuel.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Lust explain how you tweak that thermostatic clutch, are you cutting the spring? Or changing it?


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## Scott06 (May 6, 2020)

As a side note to this thread what do you folks consider normal operating temp for a Pontiac V8? 200-210? What temp should we be concerned at 225-230?

Thanks


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Yes I would like to know that too and I understand every engine build and tune can bring different temperatures, also another controversy I keep reading about is 160 or 180 degree stat, Butler told me they always use 160 in their motors so that's what used for a couple of years on one of their 461 motors, now I just switched to a 180 because I have no choke so I'm thinking it would warm up quicker and I was having overheating issues when I wasn't moving. Guess I went down the rabbit hole of leave it in the radiator longer but now after reading this thread I hope I didn't make a mistake.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Scott06 said:


> As a side note to this thread what do you folks consider normal operating temp for a Pontiac V8? 200-210? What temp should we be concerned at 225-230?
> 
> Thanks


Yesterday, Jersey was in the mid 80's with stuffy humidity, and leaving my car idle in the sun for an hour, it didn't break the 190 mark. I hope I keep it there!


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## IceBolt (Jul 28, 2020)

SPQR said:


> Thanks for the quick response. You're right about the OEM temp - way too high. But, the EFI readout looks realistic. May I ask what kinds of temps you are seeing now and the outside temp? Thank you!


Running around 185F, in California so usually sub 80F outside temp. If in traffic, temp will run towards 195-205F but quickly comes down when driving again.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I've only had mine out twice and it was good but it's only been in the low 60's so we'll see when it's July and 85-90. I did get caught behind some huge farm equipment for a couple of miles going 20mph in 3rd gear and my temp got up to 200 with only my electric puller fan on.


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## lust4speed (Jul 5, 2019)

I also prefer the 160° thermostat. Basically the 160° or 180° should be fully open before the engine reaches 190°, but in the real world a lot of the lower thermostats wait until 175° to fully open and the 180's fully open at 200°. So choosing the lower number just gives a head start on cooling ability. I'd much rather hit the base of a hill with the engine a little cooler because the load climbing up the grade is going to raise temps. Say the grade adds 20 degrees and I'd rather go from 160 to 180 than 180 to 200. Here's a write up I did on PY Forums years ago. I thought I had reinvented the wheel but since then have found the same procedure listed years before I thought of it. This is on the 2797 clutch but should work on others. Some clutches might have a different coil mounting tab and you might just be able to move the coil over without re-bending it.

My disclaimer is “results may vary, and try this at your own risk”. I took a new severe duty Hayden clutch fan and re-indexed the valve on the front of the clutch. This fan has the coil thermal spring permanently mounted to the center pin and the outside spring tip dropped into a cast slot where the spring can be lifted out.

The pin controls the fluid coupling. As the pin is rotated counter-clockwise, the fan engages more. Best way to verify this is to take a hair dryer and apply heat to the coil while the clutch is sitting on the workbench and observe the motion of the center pin as the heat is applied. The object is to have the clutch believe the spring is seeing more heat than it actually is, and the spring needs to be bent to slightly move the center pin in a counter-clockwise direction. Very little adjustment needs to be done and it is easy to over-do the bend. The danger is that the spring could snap off and the fan clutch would be scrap. The actual change needed is to bend the end tang about 5°. Another way to look at it is to make the bend thinking of the minute hand on a clock and move the tip of the tang from 12:00 to about 12:05. It doesn't take much bending, and it's best to start out with very small changes.

Moving the tip of the tang clockwise results in the main spring body moving counter-clockwise which is where it needs to be to engage earlier. While Hayden advertises that the fan engages at 185 air temperature, every fan I've seen waits until about 210° water temp to ramp up. When I got my A/C working the temps wanted to stay right at where the fan clicked in, so I cheated and made the fan come in sooner. My initial attempts were always too much, so try to just barely bend the tang.

I've modified four fan clutches now, and have been happy with the results. Also, I am still running the 8-bolt water pump on all my engines and have found no difference in cooling between the early 8-bolt pump and later 11-bolt.


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## Gtowally (Jan 19, 2019)

SPQR said:


> Hello! I know this topic has been discussed ad nausem but one more question, please. Car is 1967 400/335. Engine just fully rebuilt. Car ran hot before rebuild. Runs hot after rebuild. New 4 aluminum radiator. New EFI. New high volume water pump. Timing seems to be set optimally. Water wetter. Now that temps are getting warmer, runs hotter. At 55, temp around 210...but stopped at light or stop and go traffic, temp shoots up immediately to 230 or so....perhaps more but I haven't put myself in a position where it could. Electric fans didn't help. Tried various thermostats, didn't help. So, desperation. Has anyone tried waterless coolant like Evans? Any meaningful results? As always, thank you.


Ive been running Evans in my 66 389 tri power for 2 years now, and I have had tremendous results. I rebuilt the motor 2 years ago and since it is very important to remove all the water from the cooling system I thought it would be a good time to switch. It was idling in my driveway on a hot and humid day at195 degrees. I’m very happy with it.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Yes, I run the 160 degree thermostats and drill 3 holes like Army does,.....

mine runs real cool,....4 core US Radiator with oversized Down tubes, 7 blade fan, heavy duty temp fan clutch, proper shrouding, flow cooler water pump 11 bolt, plates tight, timing set for best advance, wheel well covers in place, (absence of these will make your rig run hot as it changes the airflow from engineers design), ......right AFR not too lean, good dual exhaust flow.....no heat riser valve that can stick and heat up manifold,

coated headers, clean radiator fins, no under hood blanket, ( traps in heat).....everything helps...


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

And a cleaned and flushed fresh cooling system,...rust can block passages and cause clogs and hot spots...


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

So do I need holes drilled if I'm running a Mr. Gasket high flow stat or maybe open them up more? I'm running a large tube two core aluminum radiator, flow cooler pump installed by Butler who I assume did the spacing correctly, a 16" 2600 cfm puller fan, a minimal half shroud...was having over heating issues when idling or moving slow so this winter I installed two 13" pusher fans for when I can't be moving also running about 80% water 20% antifreeze with two bottles of water wetter. Motor has 9.5 compression, iron heads and exhaust manifolds timing at 16° one step cooler plugs. Hopefully I'm good this summer but I'll take any suggestions that anyone thinks will help keep me cool.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I wouldn't say that you "need" the holes... However, you also don't "need" to wear socks.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Lol. If I was having cooling issues, I would use them. Like Lemans Guy said, it's not One thing, it's all of the things.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

I would run 50/50 anti-freeze, but I don’t use water wetter...16 base timing is ok, but you can add 10 degrees from a vac can hooked to full manifold vac for even cooler idling. Unless that is 6 base and 10 from vac. 26 at idle will be fine, as long as you have no starter kick back or hard starting. But timing is another discussion.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Rubber dams around shroud are required as well. Sometimes when we change to electric fans the original rubber shrouding that goes around the plastic shroud and under it are removed. Ames sells these kits so do other suppliers of rubber seals for doors and windows.

these rubber pieces make sure all air only goes then the radiator. They make a huge difference and of course fan blades half in and half out of shroud


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

No vacuum advance on my MSD ready to run dist Butler doesn't like them they said, so is that a yes change to the 160 stat "and" drill the holes bigger ? Here's my shroud..I know I know...worthless but if I can get away with it I will.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I would change the thermostat, get a dizzy with vac advance!!! OMG, it'll add at least 10 degrees at idle! Usually. I don't have a shroud at all, so don't rely on that alone.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Love Butler, they cut my short block. I live near them and they are great. But they really are building race engines. Racers do not need vacumn advance since they are operating with the pedal way down most of the time.

Street driving is very different and vacumn advance is most misunderstood. It allows you to add timing advance to burn the leaner mixtures at idle and light throttle cruise most efficiently and with better cooling and more power at lighter throttles.

Heavy and WOT are not effected because vacumn drops out. What whiz bang billet distributors with no vac advance give you is a racers set up. But you give up the advantages of 10 degrees more timing that you cannot get any other wat sans a computer.

Vac advance works from the load on your pedal and will transform your drivability and light throttle power and cooling without hurting any top end if set up correctly.

yes, calling that thing a shroud is generous. That is more like a goofy visor guys wear playing golf. That thing will do nothing.

yes I would drill the 3 small holes in thermostat, easy to do gives a little benefit. I would ditch the visor and get a real shroud with the proper or improvised rubber surround.

and I would put that whiz bang billet on eBay and get on of the MSD (if you like them) ready to run, or any Pontiac distributor that has vacumn advance and set it up right for 10 degrees of advance hooked to full manifold vac.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I too, bought the MSD with no vac advance, and I returned it before installing it. Summit has a Pontiac Billet (made by MSD) with an adjustable vac can, adjustable mechanical advance, and an adjustable curve. I run a Mallory Highfire, so mine has no module in it, but if you dont run a 6AL or similar, then they have one with the module.

My base is 18 right now and with the can I'm getting 30. With 80 degrees and heavy humidity, the car idles in the direct sun at 190 degrees... However, Im still tweaking and tuning.


https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/sum-850084.pdf


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

And yes I use the Mr Gasket thermostat, too. I just drill 3, .125 holes in it. I can tell you that my last car was a 70 vette, and they pretty much have the worst rep in the entire GM lineup, for cooling. But with those few small mods and a thorough cleaning, it was always super cool!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I know I hear it all the time about the shroud but I'm trying not to put the big plastic original on if I can help it so we'll see, I got the car with no shroud so I thought this would be ok and keep me from losing a finger. I had the original seven blade fan but it produced to much drag and my serpentine belt kept squealing even with a non hydraulic clutch, I ended up tightening the belt to much and blew out the water pump bearings, so I ditched the mechanical for an electric fan and the belt and new water pump are happy now. I don't think the guy I got the motor from was going to race it so idk what Butler was thinking they just told me the vacuum advance was not reliable and all over the place, so can I add a vacuum advance to this dist they show one in the directions so maybe I'll research it. It's an MSD ready to run pro billet with a rev limiter so I hate to just ditch it. Here's the stat,







so drill in between the slots I assume?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I see vacuum canisters for that dist for 25.00 so I should be able to just add it to mine I hope.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

We need part numbers for knowing if you can add a vac can... But I'd call Holley or Summit and just ask. Yes those adjustable vac cans are all over the place, BUT you can buy a non adjustable type or verify yours with a dial back light, in which case, it'll likely meet your needs


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## IceBolt (Jul 28, 2020)

armyadarkness said:


> Cool oil is one of the best things that you can do for your engine. A cooler dramatically drops oil and engine temps, it adds life to the engine, and it speeds up oil changes, too! Plus you can do the remote filter mount and add the cooler in-line, which makes it all cheap, tidy, and now you can change your filter from under the hood.


Do you have a recommendation for oil cooler system? - '67 400ci/TH400....mostly stock except for Sniper EFI, Aluminum intake, and Cool Case radiator.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Yes I do, but it does require a bit of personal taste. So... What I always do is to simply ad a Transdapt, remote filter mount, and I rerout the return line from that through an oil cooler.

It's a very easy, Saturday morning project.

You need to decide where you want to mount your oil filter, if you go this route, and of course, where you want to mount your oil cooler.

There are many oil coolers out there... a simple B&M, in front of the radiator (just like an OEM or trans cooler) will work awesome. Or, you can get an inline frame mount cooler, which is also super cool.... And then there's the Derale unit with a fan and thermostat, which is my favorite.

The prices are varied, depending on which way you go. You can use rubber hose with barbs and clamps, or braided stainless with an fittings. It can be done in a few hours for less than $150, or you can spend $1000. Do youu just want cool oil? DO you want to add ease of filter change? Do you want it to look super cool (to impress your pals)? Those are all preference.

The derale unit with the fan is small enough to fit in the fender, behind the passenger headlight.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Here's the dist model, also I left out what I think maybe part of the problem and think it may be a false reading of to hot. I wanted a temp gauge under the hood so I used the port for the dash gauge sending unit in the Edelbrock intake so the one on the passenger side was covered by the water neck and braided nut so I got a neck with a port for the sending unit so maybe that was to high and not in the water enough. So bought an LS neck and combined it with a





















Pontiac flange by having my machinist friend put a chamfer on the flange to match the LS neck, now it's higher and could swivel out of the way for my Speedhut sending unit. So now the under the hood gauge matches the dash gauge perfect, also was dealing with an original 56 year old temp gauge, guess when it's 85 out I'll know if that was part of the perception over running to hot.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I dont believe that a vac can, can be added to dizzys without one. While I do think that many of your little issues can be contributing to your overall condition, I have to say, I really think you're missing the boat with the vac advance. Not just for temps, but for power/ efficiency and mileage as well. The nice thing about owning a Pontiac is that you can always justify buying new parts, to save gas.!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Great...I'll start researching it, the can does make a lot of sense. Here's the old water neck...I wasn't a fan.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

From what I can see, your engine compartment is about the nicest I've seen. Mine looks like a crime scene.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Thanks ! I'm trying, but sometimes I go for looks and not function and it bites me in the ass so have to find the right parts to keep the balance


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Good news I looked up my dist on Holley's site and it came with a can, so I'm just going to order the MSD one that belongs on it for 23.00.....now black or silver what looks better HA HA


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I have been toying with the idea of a remote filter, so does the remote do much cooling or do you really need an oil cooler to make a difference in engine temp?? I wanted to run that tall Moroso oil filter but there's not enough clearance to the down pipe, I assume they have a port for the dash sending unit but not also need one for my under hood gauge so I guess I could use the tee I'm using now.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I meant I, instead of not,sorry that was Jack typing


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

I would not go through the hassle of a remote filter or cooler on a street driven Pontiac. I have one on my racecar, but it's primarily for improved filtering of the oil. There's no reason that a Pontiac engine would require this for cooling engine cooling. There's something else going on.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

Tall Moroso filter - I had poor luck with these. I installed that first, and then I upgraded to the System 1. It's mounted on the firewall.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> I have been toying with the idea of a remote filter, so does the remote do much cooling or do you really need an oil cooler to make a difference in engine temp?? I wanted to run that tall Moroso oil filter but there's not enough clearance to the down pipe, I assume they have a port for the dash sending unit but not also need one for my under hood gauge so I guess I could use the tee I'm using now.


A remote cooler adds capacity, so that will aid in cooling, quality, and life . Coolers are added if you wish to really focus on temp.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> I would not go through the hassle of a remote filter or cooler on a street driven Pontiac. I have one on my racecar, but it's primarily for improved filtering of the oil. There's no reason that a Pontiac engine would require this for cooling engine cooling. There's something else going on.


Yeah, I don't think that's his issue, but I always recommend them to anyone looking to prolong engine life and oil quality. The cooling is just a side benefit. 

I started using them on my Fiero (for obvious reasons), and then all of my new GMs had them from the factory, so I continued using them. I don't know if they're on most vehicles now, but my Trans Am, Solstice, Silverado, and Hemi Grand Cherokee, all came with them.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Well I'm thinking every little thing helps since I'm keeping my visor shroud and it certainly won't hurt if it's not too expensive or a huge job and done tastefully. I know just the remote isn't going to make a big difference in temp but maybe that inline cooler with a remote and it would add capacity and of course looks cool if done nice. OMT what problems did you have with the tall Moroso filter, and then what's the one in your pictures? Also I was thinking of it being easier to change the filter and getting it away from the down pipe, it's so close it's like putting my oil through rotisserie down there. Just looking at the engine compartment there's not a good place really to mount the remote, think it would look hokey screwing right to the heater box.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

don’t get that vac can get a Standard motor parts SMP VC 181and a
O’Neill part # BWD V374

And a vacumn corrector from Lars email him

[email protected] each about $15

that can will pull in low under 11 to13 Hg and with Lars corrector a bit lower, and it will drop the can timing advance from 16 to 10 degrees..I put them on every original points I curve and have put them on MSD ready to run.....

this make your car run real good hook to full manifold vac


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

O’Reilly not O’Neil...The NAPA part # is VC 1808 they are all made by Standard Motor parts


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

Just a correction on what I wrote before - the primary reason I went to a remote filter was so I could use an oil accumulator. Using the Moroso dropped my oil pressure significantly. 

The red and black stuff on the firewall in the second picture is the System 1. It has a cleanable/reusable filter.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Got it, well I saw lemans guy comment to late I had already ordered the MSD can that came with that dist so I shouldn't have any fitment issues and hopefully it works ok. I have a fitting for direct manifold vacuum for my factory Pontiac gauge so I should be able to tee into that instead of going all the way up to the front of the carb right? And idk where I would fit a remote oil filter setup anywhere unless I relocated the washer fluid reservoir or ditch it, I've never used the squirters anyhow.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> I have been toying with the idea of a remote filter, so does the remote do much cooling or do you really need an oil cooler to make a difference in engine temp?? I wanted to run that tall Moroso oil filter but there's not enough clearance to the down pipe, I assume they have a port for the dash sending unit but not also need one for my under hood gauge so I guess I could use the tee I'm using now.


You don't really need a remote filter unless it is for clearance issues like headers. It might be of use to keep header heat off the filter, but you can also get a heat sink that can be installed on the outside of the filter. It will add more oil to the system, and more oil means you will now have more heat due to more oil capacity - the opposite of what you are looking to achieve. You may also experience oil drain back when the engine is shut off. Then when you start the engine, you will have to allow the engine to idle for a few seconds to build pressure - don't just fire it up and rev it.

I have, and will install, a remote oil filter set-up from Nitemare Performance on my '68, but I am after a specific look more than for its use. It will also make it easier for filter changes since I am running headers. It may help to keep some heat off the filter/oil, but my headers are coated. 

An oil cooler should not be needed for the street. I would install an oil temp gauge before doing that so you know exactly what your temps run. If you were to install one, then get one that has a thermostat so it'll only channel oil when it reaches a temp to need the extra cooling.

Under hood temps can be a problem. If your hood has insulation, remove it. I would also get another factory hood insert and mill out the scoop centers just to allow heat out rather than any kind of ram air effect. If you wanted to play "king of the strip", remove the hood altogether and drive it for a few days like that and see if that has any effect. Just scribe the hinges where they bolt to the hood to make it easier to align & reinstall.

If you were to be road racing, then I could see an oil cooler, but I don't think you need one unless you choose to.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Well see how you do with the MSD vac can. Make sure that you check the timing with a good timing light and ask some of the gang on here where you need to be. Bear, PJ, Army, Mr.Taylor, 052, and more can all help you get it right.

Just know what you got and then you can adjust as needed. Your engine looks super, if Butler built it it is first class all the way!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Ya I'll probably leave the oil filter alone sounds like a lot of hassle and money for not much gain unless there's an oil filter cover I could get to shield heat, and a taller filter won't fit by the down pipe and then it's even closer to the heat. Have no hood insulation and I opened the scoop up.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I have a Nova Novus idk digital light was thinking 16° before the can and I think it adds 10° max, what's the consensus? Butler built it in and dynoed it in 2014 as stock looking sleeper for a Firebird then the guy decided to go bigger hp so he never used it and wrapped it up. I painted it AMC blue..don't tell anyone...and I put everything else around the long block, I'm pretty proud of it if I say myself.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

26. Degrees 16 base + ten vac should give a nice cool smooth idle. Just make sure you have no starter kick back or hard starting. Pretty sure That MSD distributor like all these new ones, Petronix etc, retards the timing 4 degrees while cranking to avoid kickback.

so at 22 then cranking should be no problem. If itis you can dial the base back a degree two degrees and recheck.

find your Centrifigal timing and when and what RPM it is all in as well.


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## TinIndian67 (Feb 11, 2017)

5 or 6 years ago, I had all the same problems with my '68. I tried everything you guys all talked about on this forum. I could not get that thing to stop overheating. One day, I bought a new 16lb radiator cap, and it lived at 180 degrees for the rest of its life. I could not get that thing to overheat if I tried.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Funny you say that because I was running a 13lb cap and didn't like how it looked so the one I wanted only came in 16lb so we'll see how it works, the drilled 160 stat went in today.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Yes, Tin is spot on you absolutely need a 16 lb cap,...more pressure raises the boiling point of the antifreeze. So it will prevent boil over.


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