# Spoilerless Goat...and other HP Goodies Today



## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

*Before:*










*And after:*




















*I like it...it looks more like a proper sports coupe and less like a Firebird/Camaro boy-racer thingmie.*










*I also added a little bit of horsepower to her today. With the addition of the large-diameter smoothbore HSV inlet pipe, K&N (actually an Accel Blue-- same thing) flat filter, and rigging a throttle body coolant bypass ( the throttle body has it's own coolant pathway, which is done as an extreme-weather anti-icing precaution by GM... bypassing this coolant flow keeps inlet air substabtially cooler), I've just added a few HP for little cashola... with the inlet pipe and K&N I can really tell a difference over ~3500 rpm of so!*


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## Tom (Nov 1, 2004)

dont you just love that little lip on the trunk lid. i bet that may actually have some aerodynamic purpose that was completely defeated by the tacky (err i mean tack on) spoiler. i love it without the spoiler.


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## sboylan (Nov 14, 2004)

I concur, if I wasn't leasing it would've been off 3 months ago...


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## Xman (Oct 31, 2004)

Groucho - can you explain a bit more about how to do the coolant by-pass?

Also, you should pull your airbox off, add a hole to the bottom and a companion one underneath it through the fender (into the space behind the fog lamp), and reinstall to get the air into the engine it truly deserves so it reaches its true potential! Its pretty each to accomplish. I did this for my K&N CAI so now I'm really getting cool outside air into the intake and not any heated air from under the hood. It should come in very handy as the temperature goes up this summer!!


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

Xman said:


> Groucho - can you explain a bit more about how to do the coolant by-pass?
> 
> Also, you should pull your airbox off, add a hole to the bottom and a companion one underneath it through the fender (into the space behind the fog lamp), and reinstall to get the air into the engine it truly deserves so it reaches its true potential! Its pretty each to accomplish. I did this for my K&N CAI so now I'm really getting cool outside air into the intake and not any heated air from under the hood. It should come in very handy as the temperature goes up this summer!!


*Coolant bypass-* there is much ad nauseum here: http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15074&page=1&pp=30&highlight=throttle+body+bypass


*Additional air for the airbox*...I have a plan to duct it up from under the car using a NACA scoop and SCAT-11 ducting...a mod for another day.  

The trangular hole idea is very good, but I'm not up for cutting holes in the car's structure...


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## Xman (Oct 31, 2004)

I posted a picture of the fender cut-out in your other thread.


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## diverdan (Apr 27, 2005)

I went to Home Depot to get some of the plugs and realized I didn't know what they were officially for or what they were called. Describing them to the store employee just got me dumb looks.

Can you tell me what the plugs are labeled as and where in the store (what department - plumbing etc) they were.


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## Tom (Nov 1, 2004)

sboylan said:


> I concur, if I wasn't leasing it would've been off 3 months ago...


mine is also leased. four screws and a wire connector. bolt off and bolt on when i have to return the car.


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## Xman (Oct 31, 2004)

diverdan said:


> I went to Home Depot to get some of the plugs and realized I didn't know what they were officially for or what they were called. Describing them to the store employee just got me dumb looks.
> 
> Can you tell me what the plugs are labeled as and where in the store (what department - plumbing etc) they were.



The plugs are just to keep dust out so they are not critical. You could get them after you do the mod so you know what to look for. I cut a small section out of a bent alu arrow shaft (2018) and it fit nicely into the two section of hose as a by-pass. Used a plastic zip-tie to keep it off the pulley. Mod is done!


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## diverdan (Apr 27, 2005)

Sorry, I wasn't precise. I was actually referring to the plugs to go into trunk lid for the spoiler removal.


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## NoBMWforME (Apr 12, 2005)

Groucho:

Your car looks great. I have done the same to my car and I have the JHP lip spoiler waiting for installation (anyone know a good bodyshop in Burbank, CA?) Honestly, I don't know whether I should 1. paint the plugs Cyclone Gray to match the car 2. Hold out for the guy doing the billet plugs and install and paint them as well or 3. have the holes filled and trunk painted when I have the lip spoiler painted and installed.

Have you confirmed your suspician that the factory spoiler is worthless? Please respond after your commute next week with your thoughts. This is not a request for you to drive over 145 MPH. 130 will do...... Thanks.


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## bemeyer (Apr 4, 2005)

diverdan said:


> I went to Home Depot to get some of the plugs and realized I didn't know what they were officially for or what they were called. Describing them to the store employee just got me dumb looks.
> 
> Can you tell me what the plugs are labeled as and where in the store (what department - plumbing etc) they were.


Ditto here... went to HD this weekend and looked in both the fastener and plumbing isles with no luck. I was in a bit of a rush though with another project.

After seeing Grouchos pics I'm even more eager to do this. Why did GM put this spoiler on????


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## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

Fine, okay, okay, I'll take mine off damnit! :cheers


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## GTOJon (Jan 25, 2005)

bemeyer said:


> Ditto here... went to HD this weekend and looked in both the fastener and plumbing isles with no luck. I was in a bit of a rush though with another project.
> 
> After seeing Grouchos pics I'm even more eager to do this. Why did GM put this spoiler on????


I for one am glad they DID put it on. I'm not sure if I'm in the minority on the board about this (i know i am on this tread haha) but seriously, I personally can't stand a spoilerless goat (and that has nothing to do with me being an F-Body "fan boy" ahem Groucho :cheers ) To me, I just prefer how it looks just like the tiny wing that came on my Z28...I shudder at the thought of either of them coming off. With my luck, next time my car is robbed, they'll take the spoiler! :willy:


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

NoBMWforME said:


> Have you confirmed your suspician that the factory spoiler is worthless? Please respond after your commute next week with your thoughts. This is not a request for you to drive over 145 MPH. 130 will do...... Thanks.


Like any good flight test program, these tests must be performed methodically and carefully until the very design limits of the flight envelope are discovered. For this morning's flight card I only pushed her up to 105 mph. Miraculously enough, my Holden still remained planted firmly to the freeway asphalt, even without that carefully engineered aerodynamic protuberance I thoughtlessly deleted from my vehicle.


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

A few years ago Motor Trend actually had an interesting article on the effects of spoilers on production cars. After conducting a few test that concluded that they were for looks only. And when you really think about it, if spoilers did serve a purpose on production cars other than looks, why doesn't the Vipers, ZO6 (or any other Vette), most Ferraris including the Enzo, the McClaren F1 and other extremely fast cars don't come straight from the factory with them? One of Lingenfelter's Twin Turbo Vettes did 224 mph without one. And I truly doubt that a spoiler on a Deawoo Lanos creates any useable down force to increase it's performance :rofl: .


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

6QTS11OZ said:


> A few years ago Motor Trend actually had an interesting article on the effects of spoilers on production cars. After conducting a few test that concluded that they were for looks only. And when you really think about it, if spoilers did serve a purpose on production cars other than looks, why doesn't the Vipers, ZO6 (or any other Vette), most Ferraris including the Enzo, the McClaren F1 and other extremely fast cars don't come straight from the factory with them? One of Lingenfelter's Twin Turbo Vettes did 224 mph without one. And I truly doubt that a spoiler on a Deawoo Lanos creates any useable down force to increase it's performance :rofl: .


Of course you're absolutely right....my post about testing w/o a spoiler was very much in the sacastic realm. It obviously does nothing, performs no function. It's bling, that's all. If you like the bling, fine. If you don't, rip it the hell off. Shrug.


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## 75coug (Apr 8, 2005)

I like the looks of the spoiler. I just wish that the third brake light inside the backlight had been removed. (I'm sure that it would have been cost prohibitive to redesign the rear deck to remove that third brake light.) It looks goofy having the third brake light in two places.


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

Groucho said:


> Of course you're absolutely right....my post about testing w/o a spoiler was very much in the sacastic realm. It obviously does nothing, performs no function. It's bling, that's all. If you like the bling, fine. If you don't, rip it the hell off. Shrug.


Personally, I think it look good both ways. If it would have came without a spoiler I still would have bought mine. Not having a spoiler makes it even more of a sleeper though.


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## Tom (Nov 1, 2004)

75coug said:


> I like the looks of the spoiler. I just wish that the third brake light inside the backlight had been removed. (I'm sure that it would have been cost prohibite to redesign the rear deck to remove that third brake light.) It looks goofy having the third brake light in two places.


you need the third light in the rear window for two reasons. one is the driver in back of you in an suv cannot see the wing spoilers light.

two is you need a light after you take the fugly spoiler off :rofl:


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## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

Tom said:


> you need the third light in the rear window for two reasons. one is the driver in back of you in an suv cannot see the wing spoilers light.
> 
> two is you need a light after you take the fugly spoiler off :rofl:


 :lol: :lol: :agree


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## 79TA&04GTO (Jul 29, 2004)

Ok, obviously by my name, I have a 79 TransAm as well. I've always liked the little fin in the back, I hate spoilers. Spoilers are like boy ricers in my mind.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

GTOJon said:


> I for one am glad they DID put it on. I'm not sure if I'm in the minority on the board about this (i know i am on this tread haha) but seriously, I personally can't stand a spoilerless goat (and that has nothing to do with me being an F-Body "fan boy" ahem Groucho :cheers ) To me, I just prefer how it looks just like the tiny wing that came on my Z28...I shudder at the thought of either of them coming off. With my luck, next time my car is robbed, they'll take the spoiler! :willy:


I guess us ex F-bod guys like spoilers. I just think the car is to plain without it. 
That said, I owned a Ford Contour SVT, and SVT put ground effects on the car but no spoiler. The reason was simple, the basic design of the car was stable without the spoiler, and with one the top speed was 139 and without 143. They wanted to be able to say the car was able to run over 140 so no spoiler. As an aside the 3rd most common mod to a SVT Contour, behind CAI and exhaust, was adding a spoiler.


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## Xman (Oct 31, 2004)

here is the link on what to get to go san spoiler in includes some pictures. 

http://www.gtoforum.com/showthread.php?t=902


Recommend 
1st choice - use simple plugs from ACE or Lowe's with touch-up paint 
2nd choice - small lip spoiler (if you already have one on hand)
3rd choice - billet covers (note these are much more noticable than the small plugs in choice 1)


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## 79TA&04GTO (Jul 29, 2004)

@Fergy

I agree, remember what a 70's body style camaro or firebird looked like without the little fin on the back?! Those were God-awful. Without anything the GTO looks funny as well, when the time comes for me to do something in it's place, I'd prefer something like this seen on the ram air 6 concept:

Rear View RamAir 6


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## 75coug (Apr 8, 2005)

79TA&04GTO said:


> I'd prefer something like this seen on the ram air 6 concept:
> 
> Rear View RamAir 6


I like it a lot.


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## Tom (Nov 1, 2004)

the camaro option code spoiler in my 68 firebird was installed when the car was new, probably by the dealer. yes it looks good. the second generation cars look better with the spoiler too. the 70 z28 had a lower spoiler than later years. i could have bought one for 10 at a junkyard in 80. 

the third and fourth generation firebirds evolved into something pathetic. i thought it was a cruel joke all that tacked on stuff. 

i agree that it is personal opinion, but with the spoiler on the gto one cannot tell the car has a fastback look. one cannot see the small sculptured lip on the deck lid. with the hood scoops and spoiler and sap kit pontiac is doing to the gto what they did to the firebird. again, to each his own. i thought the fourth generation firebirds were hideous looking so i bought a fourth generation camaro. to each his own.


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## bemeyer (Apr 4, 2005)

Well, I think it all depends on "design intent" with any particular car. Just this past week or two I've been looking at many spoiler-clad cars on the freeway, which now I notice are the vast majority. You can tell some were designed to have the spoiler (the 2nd gen f-body for example). Minus the spoiler the downward swoop would be too "downward." Does the Monaro sport the spoiler? My point being that this car was designed to not have a spoiler. 

I liked Tom's point about the fast-back feature kind of getting lost due to the spoiler. Plus, as I've mentioned before I think with the spoiler the back of the GTO (from the side) looks too "tall," for lack of a better description.

Anyway, I can't wait to get mine off but I still need to pick up the parts and the touch-up paint is in the mail.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

I think it's my engineering background surfacing here, but I _hate_ useless design elements.

It can be easily argued that a lip or ducktail-type spoiler may be beneficial at higher speeds. Aerodynamically speaking, it would be nice to have something there to cleanly divert the airflow up a bit to extend out the low-pressure stagnant air behind the car, helping to alleviate the High-Low pressure delta by spreading it out a bit... though without hard (and expensive) CFD analysis or wind tunnel data it's impossible to quantify.

The OEM wing, however, is obviously useless, or worse-- draggy _and_ useless. If you like the way it _looks_, however, good on ya. :cheers 

I'm leaning heavily towards the JHP lip spoiler. Subtle (the rather svelte Monaro lines are retained) and, quite probably, _functional_.












Tom said:


> the third and fourth generation firebirds evolved into something pathetic. i thought it was a cruel joke all that tacked on stuff.
> 
> i agree that it is personal opinion, but with the spoiler on the gto one cannot tell the car has a fastback look. one cannot see the small sculptured lip on the deck lid. with the hood scoops and spoiler and sap kit pontiac is doing to the gto what they did to the firebird. again, to each his own. i thought the fourth generation firebirds were hideous looking so i bought a fourth generation camaro. to each his own.


Man...I could not agree more. :agree :cheers


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## bemeyer (Apr 4, 2005)

Well...just got home with my nylon plugs! Now I need to find time to pull the spoiler. First I had better be patient and wait for my touch-up paint to arrive.

Just to be sure...nobody that has done this has sealed the periphery of the plug with anything (to keep from leaking??)? arty:


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Groucho said:


> I think it's my engineering background surfacing here, but I _hate_ useless design elements.
> 
> It can be easily argued that a lip or ducktail-type spoiler may be beneficial at higher speeds. Aerodynamically speaking, it would be nice to have something there to cleanly divert the airflow up a bit to extend out the low-pressure stagnant air behind the car, helping to alleviate the High-Low pressure delta by spreading it out a bit... though without hard (and expensive) CFD analysis or wind tunnel data it's impossible to quantify.
> 
> ...


This JHP lip spoiler and the Ram Air 6 spoiler definately look better than stock. I could be convinced to do that, but to not have any spoiler at all just doesn't work for my tastes. 
I'll also agree that the Trans/Am Firebird 4th gen were overdone. I thought my 4th gen Z28 was cleaner looking.


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## Xman (Oct 31, 2004)

bemeyer said:


> Just to be sure...nobody that has done this has sealed the periphery of the plug with anything (to keep from leaking??)? arty:


I sealed the 3/4-inch plug with clear silcon because this hole goes to the inside. The others did not. I also used a rubber mallet to tape them into place. Only one of the little ones went in with had pressure.


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## diverdan (Apr 27, 2005)

I have joined the ranks of the spoilerless. A definate improvement, without a doubt. I put in some plugs I got at Lowes as an interim fix until I get some of the thinner (I am told) plugs from Ace Hardware and paint them with touchup paint. 
I was as happy to get this spoiler off as I imagine many ricers are to add a double decker spoiler to their Civic.



















I concur with whoever said that the GTO, sans spoiler, has a more European sports coupe feel.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

That looks _nice_, Dan!

Welcome to the wingless club! :cheers


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## bemeyer (Apr 4, 2005)

Dan, looks great! Nice to see a pulse red example.


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## Tom (Nov 1, 2004)

bemeyer said:


> Well...just got home with my nylon plugs! Now I need to find time to pull the spoiler. First I had better be patient and wait for my touch-up paint to arrive.
> 
> Just to be sure...nobody that has done this has sealed the periphery of the plug with anything (to keep from leaking??)? arty:


you dont have to seal the four small ones, they go into a the drain channel. i didnt seal the big one, the plug is in pretty tight. 

also, dont use metal plugs. i was told by the experts the two types of metal touching each other even with the paint there will cause corrosion.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

A buddy of mine is having one _hell_ of a time finding a body shop who is willing to fill the spoiler-delete holes in the _right_ way...sheesh. It seems these jokers would rather take a panel out of a box, spray color on it, bolt it on, collect the insurance money, and kick it out the door...


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## asteng88 (Aug 26, 2004)

*Option*

The spoiler should definately be an option at time of purchase/smartbuy. I like it without. I had a Peugeot 406 Coupe with similar lines that was designed by Pininfarina. I like it. Looks Nice and clean. Traditional sports coupe lines :cheers


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## Tom (Nov 1, 2004)

speaking of designers, i wonder who the designer that penned the monaro is and his/her other designs.


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## Rockatansky (Apr 19, 2005)

Groucho said:


> *I like it...it looks more like a proper sports coupe and less like a Firebird/Camaro boy-racer thingmie.*


Dude. Really.

Don't get me wrong, I'm envious of you/your car (although not for much longer) but you kinda lost me with the above comment. You drive a fast bright yellow car with matching calipers, big racing stripes, and fancy wheels, but now it looks less like a "boy-racer thingmie" because you lost the spoiler? Don't take this as an insult - like I said I'm coveting over here. But there is a saying about a pot, a kettle, and the color black...


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

Rockatansky said:


> Dude. Really.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm envious of you/your car (although not for much longer) but you kinda lost me with the above comment. You drive a fast bright yellow car with matching calipers, big racing stripes, and fancy wheels, but now it looks less like a "boy-racer thingmie" because you lost the spoiler? Don't take this as an insult - like I said I'm coveting over here. But there is a saying about a pot, a kettle, and the color black...


Ummm...

Sorry, no. This is what I was referring to...quite possibly one of the _stupidest_ looking cars ever built...specifically engineered to give junior high-school boys a hard on.



















Please. It looks like PeeWee Herman's bike. I mean...if you really have a small penis, why advertise by driving one of these?


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## Tom (Nov 1, 2004)

Groucho said:


> Please. It looks like PeeWee Herman's bike. I mean...if you really have a small penis, why advertise by driving one of these?


And what was wrong with PeeNee's bike? I especially liked how it was adapted in the movie. Have you seen large marge lately?

My cousin worked for Ford and the general. when I told him my porsche was stolen and i was thinking of a Z28 he let me in on a dirty little secret. He said the engineers called what we call "Pony Cars", "small penis cars". when i bought the Z28 he said i joined the ranks of the street squirrels.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

Tom said:


> My cousin worked for Ford and the general. when I told him my porsche was stolen and i was thinking of a Z28 he let me in on a dirty little secret. He said the engineers called what we call "Pony Cars", "small penis cars". when i bought the Z28 he said i joined the ranks of the street squirrels.


"Street Squirrels."

:rofl:


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Groucho said:


> Ummm...
> 
> Sorry, no. This is what I was referring to...quite possibly one of the _stupidest_ looking cars ever built...specifically engineered to give junior high-school boys a hard on.
> 
> ...


I think the hood is a little much, ok, a lot too much. The rest of the car is not bad. What's wrong with the old theory if you got it, flaunt it. 

Groucho, you always knock the F-bod, but as an engineer you should appreciate some of the designs' qualities.
My Z28 put 335rwhp down. Even though it had a large footprint it only weighed 3408lbs due to an extensive use of plastics, composites and aluminum. I ran 13.0 to 13.1 in the 1/4 and thanks to good aerodynamics it would do upper 160's. I got 19-20 around town and 28-30 on the highway and I'm not an easy does it driver. After over 30k I did not have 1 squeak or rattle. With 150+ drag strip passes nothing broken. I climbed I 15 out of Baker going to Vegas at 100 plus in 120 degree heat and the temp guage never rose, and the A/C was freezing cold. I did several cross country trips, the GTO is much better, but the Z28 was great. It had the same engine and tranny your car has. The rear axle was not set up for handling, but it still pulled .84g in regular Z28 mode and .87g in SS trim. I think that is better than the GTO, and boy did it get the power to the ground well. No axle hop there. Hit a bump in a corner though and you sometimes thought it might be easier to do a 180 and go back where you came from.


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## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

fergyflyer said:


> I think the hood is a little much, ok, a lot too much. The rest of the car is not bad. What's wrong with the old theory if you got it, flaunt it.
> 
> Groucho, you always knock the F-bod, but as an engineer you should appreciate some of the designs' qualities.
> My Z28 put 335rwhp down. Even though it had a large footprint it only weighed 3408lbs due to an extensive use of plastics, composites and aluminum. I ran 13.0 to 13.1 in the 1/4 and thanks to good aerodynamics it would do upper 160's. I got 19-20 around town and 28-30 on the highway and I'm not an easy does it driver. After over 30k I did not have 1 squeak or rattle. With 150+ drag strip passes nothing broken. I climbed I 15 out of Baker going to Vegas at 100 plus in 120 degree heat and the temp guage never rose, and the A/C was freezing cold. I did several cross country trips, the GTO is much better, but the Z28 was great. It had the same engine and tranny your car has. The rear axle was not set up for handling, but it still pulled .84g in regular Z28 mode and .87g in SS trim. I think that is better than the GTO, and boy did it get the power to the ground well. No axle hop there. Hit a bump in a corner though and you sometimes thought it might be easier to do a 180 and go back where you came from.


I'm not trying to be an ass here but are you saying you NEVER heard a squeek or rattle on your F-body!?!?!?!? I've rode in quite a few f-bodys and not one of them didn't sound like a rattle trap inside..... I'm just curious how you did it? :cheers


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

GTODEALER said:


> I'm not trying to be an ass here but are you saying you NEVER heard a squeek or rattle on your F-body!?!?!?!? I've rode in quite a few f-bodys and not one of them didn't sound like a rattle trap inside..... I'm just curious how you did it? :cheers


Luck. Pure luck.

Not gonna reopen an old nasty thread, but I'll just explain myself. F-Bodies are notorious for poor build quality...and the "engineer" in me (never finished my AeroE degree, but my entire professional career has been working closely with engineering) wants to cry (or laugh hysterically) when seeing the inelegant, cartoonish, styling-for-the-sake-of-styling that became Pontiac's unfortunate calling card. The mechanical attributes you mention are purely from the school of brute force-- which does not a great car make.

I'm glad they reached beyond their own and sourced the Aussie Monaro to be their flagship, because the Monaro / GTO _proves_ that superior build quality, clean design (further enhanced IMHO by taking the silly-assed spoiler off), and use of above-price point materials do _not_ have to exclusive of good old pushrod V8 brute force.


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## bemeyer (Apr 4, 2005)

GTODEALER said:


> I'm not trying to be an ass here but are you saying you NEVER heard a squeek or rattle on your F-body!?!?!?!? I've rode in quite a few f-bodys and not one of them didn't sound like a rattle trap inside..... I'm just curious how you did it? :cheers


I had a 96 WS6 Formula prior to the GTO. The only rattles or noises it had were all fallouts from my mods: catback exhaust rattle, subframe connectors bumping the floorboard and 4.10's whining. Other than the extendo nose it was a very sleek car (no big spoiler or skirts on the Formula). Ok, the headlight fixtures did rattle, but I couldn't hear it over the other stuff! The window motors and headlight plastic gears were the only things that broke.

In the end, I believe the GTO and f-body are aimed at the same group...people wanting V8 RWD performance on a reasonable budget. :cheers


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

GTODEALER said:


> I'm not trying to be an ass here but are you saying you NEVER heard a squeek or rattle on your F-body!?!?!?!? I've rode in quite a few f-bodys and not one of them didn't sound like a rattle trap inside..... I'm just curious how you did it? :cheers


The car was rock solid. My Corsa exhaust from time to time rattled, but I did that not GM. I have a friend with a non-T-top 2001 and he has driven it harder than most people drive theirs. He is just over 100k and no rattles. The antenna broke off at 10k and GM covered it under warranty. It still has the original shocks and struts, brakes once, and he's getting ready for the first major service on it.


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## GTOJon (Jan 25, 2005)

I know I'm gonna get shot for this, but...

If the F-Bodies are such crappy cars, explain to me why they sold so much better the the "God-like" pure perfected new GTO?  

I know there are quite a few answers to that question. But the GTO is 'so' superior...and yet dealers beg for them to be bought.

My point is, F-Bodies aren't as bad as some on this board make them out to be. I have one (AND a new GTO), my father has one too. Of course there may be some sounds here and there, but you know what? What car won't? At least eventually. Since we are talking about "perfect GTO's" here, well, mine's definitely NOT. There are 'sounds' :cheers

I hope I didn't open a can of worms...you don't have to answer why certain cars sell/sold more. The main point was 'quality' and the realistic view on non-perfect cars (GTO included).


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

GTOJon said:


> I know I'm gonna get shot for this, but...
> 
> If the F-Bodies are such crappy cars, explain to me why they sold so much better the the "God-like" pure perfected new GTO?


The GTO "God-like?" "Perfect?" Not.

It is a great performance / GT bargain, however.

And the secret to the F-Body's success?

_Demographics_, baby.


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

Groucho said:


> The GTO "God-like?" "Perfect?" Not.
> 
> It is a great performance / GT bargain, however.
> 
> ...


 :rofl: :rofl: Man, where do you find this stuff? :rofl: :rofl:


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## Tom (Nov 1, 2004)

GTOJon said:


> I know I'm gonna get shot for this, but...
> 
> If the F-Bodies are such crappy cars, explain to me why they sold so much better the the "God-like" pure perfected new GTO?


they sold because they offered a lot of performance for the money. when my porsche was stolen in 2003 i was going to buy another porsche. i ended up with a 93 z28 because i got an extra 150hp, dual airbags and abs for the same money as an 87 944. i also got a few more years of crumple zone development. 

the z28 was loud, had a very harsh ride (lowered, bilsteins revalved, bigger sways, urethane bushings etc) but was wicked fast compared to the 944. it would have done everything my 944S2 (bigger motor, turbo suspension) could do. i enjoyed the Z28. i bought another 944S2 a few months later, it drives like a caddy compared to the Z28, but again, even with the solid axle, the Z28 could keep up with the 944.

bottom line, the f bodies do everything, but at a price. that price is refinement. thats why a bmw 3 series with 200hp is a better car than a 300hp camaro. you can live easier with the bmw, same for my 220hp legend coupe. it wasnt as fast, but on the turns it was faster, and after a six hour drive you werent beaten up.

the gto is refined, as refined as the bmw, almost as easy to drive as the legend coupe. i would easily take it on a six hour drive. i did an 11 hour drive in the z28 on monday and returned on a thursday. i too friday off because my back tightened up, was crippled on saturday and made it to the chiroprachtor on sunday. after the chiroprachtor i stopped in at the pontiac dealer and played in a gto for 45 minutes till one of the very busy salesman was able to talk to me. sitting in the car i decided i was going to buy one. i did a few months later. didnt drive it, i knew it was going to ride better than the z28, which had a squeak from the left exhaust hangar, a little wd40 every month, and was developing a squeak by the vent by the drivers door. other then that it was remarkably tight. much tighter than people would think. materials were cheap, but they worked. i cant knock the z28 it was a very well made, yet inexpensive car. the firechicken with the hideous beak, now thats another story.


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## GTOJon (Jan 25, 2005)

HA HA

Last time I checked the F Body was a guido car, haven't seen too many short black guys driving them around :cool But like you said, demographics. Besides, sharp looks, great performance, nice sound mmmmm that's why I still have mine and what made me want one to begin with (and affordability of course.) :cheers .


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Tom said:


> they sold because they offered a lot of performance for the money. when my porsche was stolen in 2003 i was going to buy another porsche. i ended up with a 93 z28 because i got an extra 150hp, dual airbags and abs for the same money as an 87 944. i also got a few more years of crumple zone development.
> 
> the z28 was loud, had a very harsh ride (lowered, bilsteins revalved, bigger sways, urethane bushings etc) but was wicked fast compared to the 944. it would have done everything my 944S2 (bigger motor, turbo suspension) could do. i enjoyed the Z28. i bought another 944S2 a few months later, it drives like a caddy compared to the Z28, but again, even with the solid axle, the Z28 could keep up with the 944.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if they changed the seats from 93 to 2001/2002, but one of the things I liked about mine were the seats. 
Other than that you are right on the money.
I think what Groucho is trying to say is that he doesn't want to buy a car, any car, with the demographics that the F-body had. He would probably not want a Mustang or a Civic for the same reason? I have a friend that loved to take my Z for a drive anytime I would let him, but he just didn't want anybody to see him driving it.


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