# Cam / Lifters Problem on Restart



## peahrens (Jun 7, 2010)

After 7 months, my mechanic and I got the '66 GTO 389 tripower back together. It looked great, and the mechanic started it up (I wasn't there) and told me I could pick it up...but within blocks it started making a big ol' noise. The bottom line is the not terribly old cam and (new) lifters wore each other out (mostly the cam) on restart. The engine had maybe 3000 miles on it since a '92 rebuild, but a rear main seal leak meant pulling the engine to fix that, and then discovering that new valves, lifters (a few functioned improperly) and pushrods were needed as well. And everything got cleaned up...it looked beautiful when put back in. 

The mechanic put break-in compound on the cam/lifters and I had filled it with Rotella T 15W40, which I had always run, and I determined that it still has the old levels of phosphorus (the ZDDP thing regarding flat tappet high perf engine issues). So, I expected it to break in ok. I assume the oil pressure was ok...since it indicated on the gauge (it's not accurate as I changed the sender and need to take a resistor out of the wiring). My mechanic thinks it (the sudden breakin wear) just happens sometimes, perhaps triggered by some not so noticeable prior wear on the cam.

So, any thoughts on my many questions...as I want to be comfortable the next try will be successful!!
a) Is Crane back to making cams again yet? I've got a H-278-2 grind that really was nice...it had nice power and sound with the 3x2 bbl but didn't knock at all. If I can't find a new one, my choice seems to be having Bullet Cams make a copy or just going with a replica of the 068 3-deuces original. Many of the CompCams options make me think the valve springs would have to be changed and I don't want to mess with the heads again if not necessary.
b) We installed (from Ames) the "heavy duty" Comp Cams lifters. I presume these can not (vs OEM replacement types) behave differently enough to create a breakin problem so I would likely order another set of the same.
c) What about reducing risk of wear problems by going with Mobil 1 synthetic. I presume the cam / lifters would break in ok with synthetic (just take longer)? The Mobil 1 15W-50 has the old higher levels of zinc for flat tappet / high performance engines. Frankly, I'm surprised the Rotella T didn't prevent the problem since it's known to be excellent for long haul diesels. I have some ZDDP additive but don't want to arbitrarily thrwo that in and overdo it as that could cause a different problem. 
d) Anything else come to mind? 

This has been an exercise in patience. My mechanic has other priorities but I believe knows his stuff...into racing and all that.

ANy comments are appreciated.


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## peahrens (Jun 7, 2010)

A couple of add-on points:
1. I found a Crane break-in procedure and they firmly advise against syn oil for startup. They recommend startup with a racing oil (JGibbs, BPenn, or other, with breakin compound). I'll have to see if I can find those. They also say to drain after the 20-30 min initial 3000rpm breakin and then advise to change oil also at 500 miles, at which point (they prefer 5000 miles) synthetic is an option. I don't understand, but that's what they say.
2. The other point of concern I have is the cam bearings. My mechanic says they should be fine, and aren't readily replaceable with the engine only this far apart. I guess the logic is that the rapid wear issue is about the unusual load at the flat tappet / high performance lifter / cam lobe interface, much less so the journal or cam bearings.


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## peahrens (Jun 7, 2010)

One last issue that may be relevant. The mechanic had a delayed startup due the fuel pump lines being backward (no fuel pumped). And, he did not have the oil primer gizmo for this motor so it wasn't exactly well oiled before finally firing up. This seems rather contrary to the emphasis in the Crane startup procedure and perhaps contributed. I'll order the oil primer for this engine from Ames for the next shot.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

peahrens said:


> One last issue that may be relevant. The mechanic had a delayed startup due the fuel pump lines being backward (no fuel pumped). And, he did not have the oil primer gizmo for this motor so it wasn't exactly well oiled before finally firing up. This seems rather contrary to the emphasis in the Crane startup procedure and perhaps contributed. I'll order the oil primer for this engine from Ames for the next shot.


Ouch --- depending on how well the cam was lubed and with what during assembly, my money is on a big part of the problem being caused by failure to prime the oiling system before the first start. If the cam was "dry" and the engine turned over a lot due to the fuel pump problem, that's going to wipe lobes in very short order. Next time make sure that the cam and lifters are liberally and generously coated with a good quality engine assembly lube, and if running hydraulics be sure to soak them overnight completely submerged in oil to give them a chance to fill up. You don't have to buy a fancy priming tool to prime the engine. I've done it with an old distributor with the gear removed, and have even done it with a 1/2" wooden spade bit with the point broken off, chucked in a 1/2" drill. Just have a way to spin the oil pump (remember Pontiac distributors turn CCW) while slowly turning the engine over by hand with a wrench. You want to see oil squirting out the tops of all 16 pushrods - that's why you have to turn the motor over some. If the engine doesn't catch -immediately- then don't keep grinding on the starter. Stop and figure out why. Make sure you prime the carb bowl(s) with fuel so you don't have to wait for the pump to fill them. Your goal is to get the engine to catch and run in less than one revoultion of the crank. Once it fires, don't let it idle - keep it above 2000 rpm for at least 15-20 minutes. That's the most critical period, other than the initial start, for a new cam. Don't worry about ignition timing or anything else during that time - you can deal with all that later - as long as the motor will run that's good enough.

Bear


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## dimitri (Feb 13, 2009)

Hey Peahrens,
Sorry to hear about this. You know the last time I rebuilt my engine I put a hydraulic roller cam and lifters in it. It's the best money I have ever spent. I don't have to worry about additives any more. Even the breakin procedure for the cam is just start it up and drive.


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## peahrens (Jun 7, 2010)

Question...how do I prefill the carbs? 

I ordered the parts today. Glad to find that Crane is back...I was able to get the same type cam as I had (part #283801 / grind H-278-2 which is super similar to the grind HMV-278-2-NC I had). The Crane guy told me they have been making cams again for 14 months. I didn't find it in stock elsewhere yet but Crane has inventory and sells retail. Going with the CompCams heavy duty High Energy lifters. Also gpending the $19 for the oil pump spinner rod.

I've decided to get some Joe Gibbs BR breakin oil and follow the Crane procedure 548E exactly. Still have to determine what oil to put in after breakin but have asked Joe Gibbs Co to reply on that. I won't use full synthetic until at least 500 miles per Crane procedure. May just go with the GibbsHR-1 high performence 15W40 oil for flat tappets (plenty of zinc). 

Live & learn...


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

good luck with round 2. you can put gas in the carb through the vent tube.


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## dimitri (Feb 13, 2009)

For too many reasons to list I am not a fan of synthetic oils in our older Pontiacs. I like to use Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil nonsynthtic 10W30. Once your cam is broken in, you can run this oil with a flat tappet cam and not have to add any additives. Check out the link:

http://valvoline.com/pdf/VR-1_Racing_Motor_Oil.pdf


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## peahrens (Jun 7, 2010)

Well, I've got the parts, including a new Crane #283801 cam and CompCam High Energy lifters. Besides ensuring the 2 problems last time of having the fuel pump lines not connected backward and also wet lubing the engine with the distributor hole oil primer rod, I've got a question about valve springs. 

I think mine has 2 springs per valve, and the Crane, Joe Gibbs oil and CompCams literature seems to suggest or dictate that the inner spring be removed during the initial 20-30 minute break-in. The Gibbs info says to do it with either dual or high pressure springs. The Crane info says higher than "recommended" valve spring pressure can reduce life and that racing applications often run more spring pressure, and to break in cams with high open pressures that the inner springs should be removed during break-in. The CompCams info says the inner spring must be removed during break-in. 

So, how essential is this? I want to know in case my mechanic wants to skip this aspect. I note from the spring specs in the shop manual that removing the inner spring would reduce the force about 40%. The Crane cam does have higher lift than the Pontiac 068 cam; e.g., exhaust lift of 0.494" vs. OEM lift of 0.407"...that seems siugnificant Maybe I've answered my own question...sounds important to reduce the load during break-in. And perhaps the old (3000 miles) Crane cam that failed last startup as described above, with new lifters, was somewhat damaged by the 1992 startup where we didn't address this. 

Any comments welcome; e.g., yes, you have dual springs, definitely remove the inner springs, etc Oh, and how hard is it to remove / replace the inner springs (I'd guess my mechanic will have the tools). Kinda now wish I had taken my time and sprung for roller parts!


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

peahrens said:


> Question...how do I prefill the carbs?
> 
> 
> The Crane info says higher than "recommended" valve spring pressure can reduce life and that racing applications often run more spring pressure, and to break in cams with high open pressures that the inner springs should be removed during break-in. The CompCams info says the inner spring must be removed during break-in.
> ...


Easy way to fill the fuel bowl(s) would be to use a very small funnel, or maybe one of those squeeze bulb syringes like parents use for sucking snot out of baby's noses  - and put fuel in through the bowl vent(s) in the top(s) of the carb(s).

When you're priming the oiling system, spinning the pump with a drill, make sure you slowly turn the engine over by hand - _don't do it with the starter!_ - so that all 16 lifters and pusrods have a chance to "see" oil pressure. When you see oil come out the top of all 16 pushrods and start to puddle on the rockers and drip down onto the valve stems, you're ready.

As far as breaking in the cam using only the outer springs --- the last motor I built was a roller so I don't have direct experience, but it does make sense to me. Maybe Mr. P-Body will chime in here. 

On a flat tappet cam, the very first startup is the most critical time. That's why you don't let the motor idle for at least 15-20 minutes after it first catches. You want to immediately take it up to and keep it around 2000 - 2500 rpm to make sure the oiling system is making plenty of pressure and really keeping everything nice and lubricated. As long as it runs, don't worry about futzing with dialing in the ignition timing until you're done breaking in the cam. 

I think you said you're going to use Gibbs break in oil this time? I hear that's good stuff. Make sure whatever you use has plenty of zinc (zddp) in it. During the cam break in you're not going to be stressing the motor and revving it "to the moon" so you shouldn't need all that spring pressure at first. It doesn't take special tools to remove the inner springs other than the usual valve spring compressor, they should just slide out. Don't just yank 'em though, use some lube and ease them out being careful not to scratch or nick the surface of either the inner or the outer spring. Even a tiny scratch creates a stress point that can be prone to failure later.

Speaking of valve spring compressors, there are generally two types. One looks like a giant "C" clamp that fits over the valve spring retainer on one side and pushes on the valve face on the other. This type can only be used with the heads removed. The other works with the heads installed and uses a lever to compress the valve retainer so the locks can be removed, but also usually needs compressed air connected to a fitting in the spark plug hole to prevent the valves from falling into the cylinder and also to keep the valve stems positioned "high" enough to permit reinstalling the springs, locks, and retainers.

Good luck!

Bear


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## dimitri (Feb 13, 2009)

On my Quadrajet I remove the spring from the idle screw and put the screw back in. That gives me plelty of threads to make 2500 rpm. I have never broken in a tri power. I don't know if this helps.


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## peahrens (Jun 7, 2010)

Thanks for the helpful & important comments!


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## Mr. P-Body (Jan 20, 2011)

I just read this whole thing. I'm still "finding my way around" here.

My instinct says the failure is due to using new lifters on an old cam (first). Especially in "today's" world of oils, cams, etc., flat tappet cams need to be "handled" just so. if not, failure is immenent (sp?). Rule of thumb: NEVER use a "used" cam unless the lifters that were on each lobe are in order and go back ON those same lobes. We've even seen this "fail" when a cam came from one block and istalled in another. The "attutde" of the lifters to the cam can vary ever so slightly, causing this. Of course someone here will chime in and say that didn't happen to them. Maybe. But 8 out of 10, anyway. 

Crane cams are, IMO, obsolete. They "went under" for a reason. No innovation. When Harvey retired, the company went to the marketeers and bean counters. This is a recipe for failure in a technical field. I DO like their XRi ignition "system", though. Crane recommends one particular valve spring for their milder hydraulic cams. It's a "single spring w/damper". These are infamous for breakage. ALL Pontiacs should have a "dual" spring. The flat coil "wound up" inside is not a spring, but a "damper" (soaks up vibration). Dampers are nice, especially in higher revs, but not a necessary thing.

We use Sealed Power HT-951 lifters in virtually all flat tappet hydraulic applications, regardless of engine family. In recent times, we've had reports of the Comp lifters not pumping enough oil to the top, wiping cams, and Sealed Power lifters "fixed" the problem. In one case, the shop told me they had installed two cams and three sets of lifters. They were blaming the cam until we got a similar report from a shop in California, a LONG way from Richmond. And of course, one shop blamed it on Pontiac... They KNEW Pontiacs were "junk"... Should have bought a Chevy. With that outlook, I agree, they SHOULD have bought a Chevy. -

We (CVMS) prefer Comp cams today, and others like Crower and Lunati (particularly the "VooDoo" line). There are many others, of course. These three seem to be at the top of the "list".

As for "break-in", Pop always said "When all else fails, follow instructions..." Comp and others have established an effective method for 'break-in". Yes, it involves removing the inner springs. I've been told "You shouldn't have to do that...!" Well, if you want it "right", it's gotta be done right... 

Lastly, the correct choice for valve springs is also paramount. Rather than look at the "part number" a particular cam grinder recommends, look at the specifications. Often with the Pontiac, cam grinders aren't fully aware of the variety of valve lengths used without changing installed height. Some of their offerings don't come close to "fitting". Seat and nose pressure are key, a well as getting near, but not TOO near "coil bind". Each engine build may have slightly different dimensions using the same parts. 

Hope this is helpful.

Jim


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## peahrens (Jun 7, 2010)

Thanks for the additional comments...I really appreciate the trouble you guys go to to pass on detailed information and advice.

My mechanic (who does this, but mostly racing, stuff on the side now that he's gone back to a regular service mgr job) will put things together next weekend. I've just ordered the Sealed Power ZHT951 lifters, Jim. For about $70, I can eliminate that issue at least. They're available in one day via O'Reilly...supposedly 16 in stock in nearby San Antonio...my luck, 15 will show up with one backordered. Anyone want to bid on a $99 new set of CompCam 852-16 hydraulic lifters?

My mechanic doesn't want to remove the inner springs...thinks that's way overkill for this mild, slightly hotter than stock, setup. I've read some other threads on the inner removal for breakin issue and it seems there's some gray area to the issue. I think my springs are original Pontiac...don't remember buying new springs in the 1992 rebuild with the Crane cam. The shop manual spring pressures are 132# outer plus 90# inner, 222# total. That would be increased by the 14% (intake) and 21% (exhaust) higher lift of the Crane cam vs. stock 3-deuces cam. Of course this is subject with many opinions, from people who know lots more than me. Nonetheless, some think the risk is mainly with more modern lobe designs and/or considerably higher spring pressures than I might get. If I was doing it myself, I'd likely get the spring tools and remove the inner springs. My mechanic (the car is at his shop) thinks it's way overboard (I don't think he's willing to take his limited time to do it). He does race stuff that is much wilder with few problems...says it just happens sometimes. 

So the question at hand is whether to rely on the fact of both new cam and lifters this time, fuel pump hooked up right, proper prelube of the top with the oil pump spinner gizmo, the right breakin oil (Joe Gibbs), the lifters being Jim's recommended Sealed Power ones, etc, but not removing the inner springs. Doing the latter would require insisting on removing the inner springs, which my mechanic might show me how to do, or worst case parting ways and having him put it together and towing it home, then me removing the springs and starting it myself...hoping it starts. I'm inclined that the risk is reasonable in this case to break in with the inner springs installed, but that's not an expert opinion. I'll report back either way. A big failure is obvious...I'd worry about initial poor wear that would become a problem later...something to put on my list of things to worry about that I shouldn't worry about much.


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## Mr. P-Body (Jan 20, 2011)

Those spring pressure numbers cannot be accurate, at least without a specific point of reference. "Seat" pressure for a stock Pontiac with a Ram Air cam is about 120 lbs. total, which includes both iner and outer. I'd be willing to bet, your machinist that says it's not necessary, is primarily a Chevy or Ford builder.

It's your money, dude. Do what you will. However, I advise following the procedures and replacing the springs. You can make no "assumptions" of spring compatibility, nor can you make projections of how a spring will react beyond it's "design limit'. Spring pressures and reactions are not "linear" in nature. I ABSOLUTELY say, if those springs were on those heads in 1992, they NEED relpacement.

Peace,

Jim


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Mr. P-Body said:


> It's your money, dude. Do what you will.


:agree Gotta agree here. I'm reminded of a "line" I heard from somewhere a long time ago. "Winners make a habit of doing the things that losers don't like to do." Just like with body work, 99% of the people you run into just aren't going to care as much about your car as you do. With very few exceptions, getting someone to "care" means you've got to pay them big bucks. Ask yourself, "what's the worst thing that could happen?". Well, obviously you could "bend/break stuff" just like last time and also wipe out the cam --- be out the money, be looking at having to spend more, and still not have a running engine. If that happens, your mechanic still has your money and the only down-side for him is he might lose you as a customer --- but he'll still have your money. The up-side for him is he might be able to talk you into buying even more parts, paying him more money, and letting him "try again." Is that really what you want?

Yeah, it's a little more time and effort to get the tools, take things apart, measure stuff, and verify that things are "correct". Gotta ask yourself, the question, "Do ya feel lucky?"

Listen to Jim. The man knoweth that of which he speaketh.

Bear


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