# Correct Pulleys and Pump



## shelbee350 (Sep 4, 2011)

Hello,

My friend has a 69 Judge Ram Air III car. We were just at the GTOAA Nationals and need to correct a few things. One is the water pump. The car has an 05C date code on the dataplate on the cowl but the PHS docs say June of 1969. So is this considered a late car and have the 4.5 inch shaft or because it is a Judge it should still have the 4.0 shaft and what should the casting numbers be? Also what crankshaft and water pump pulleys should be on the car? It does not have AC or power steering. Looking for the part numbers stamped into the parts specifically on both pulleys. Thank you for your time


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

All '69 Pontiac V8's originally used the "351" casting WP. This is the short style 11 bolt pump, and they were cast as production pieces up into August of '69. Pontiac, eventually, as a service procedure in '70, dropped the short "351" casting pumps and had their service depts install a later "tall" 11 bolt pump and a different stagger WP pulley. 

The confusion between "early" and "late 69" also stems from the '69 Firebird being continued in production up into Nov of '69. The first "tall" 11 bolt water pumps, "124's" were cast in July of '69 and were used on the first *'70 model* Pontiacs which began to be produced in August of 1969. Have been pulling and rebuilding correct casting Pontiac waterproofs since the early '90's. The GTOAA Concours Judges should know these correct pump applications, I know several of them, one is a very good friend and knows 69's to the nth degree.

Currently have a clean "351" casting core, cast in March of '69, also a recently rebuilt early F of '69 dated pump (perfect for a kate '69 Bird or T/A). All pumps are rebuilt with a quality bearing, seal, and correct cast impeller. Pontiac V8 pumps from '64-81 used 5 different cast impellers and rebuilds I provide get the correct cast impeller, not something that might look close.

The '69 V8 manual strg pulleys are the "059" (WP) and the "947" (crank pullley). will have to ck my pallet rack section of pulleys, know, have the crank pulley, believe I'm out of the "059" wp pulley.


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## Mav (Mar 5, 2017)

Have been unsure of water pump for years, also have 05C car built in Fremont Changed to 4 in. pump years ago, but belt is not ruler straight, but if I go to 4 1/2 in. it would be farther off. Pump has been changed more than once but alternator, pulley, and fan hub spacer are original. Any ideas? thanks, and glad to be back after a 4 year absence. Oh yeah, car was built late enough that they were running out of 69 parts, (or being Fremont who knows!) but mine came with oversize black ball instead of T-handle and 70 console lid w/button and latch. thx again Mav


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

The "351" casting "short" (4" height) 11 bolt waterpump was stock on all '69 Pontiac V8's. With manual steering & non AC, the original waterpump pulley will be an "059" single groove pulley. Pontiac service procedure beginning sometime after the '70 models were introduced (need to dig out the service bulletin) was to replace the original '69 "short" 11 bolt casting pump, & replace it with the latter production "tall" 11 bolt pump, this required swapping to the correct '70 model wp pulley. This worked fine except on '69 V8 Birds with the factory flex fan & 4 core radiator. Don't believe Pontiac ever addressed the issue with such '69 Birds... as not many were built.

Have been pulling the "351" casting original waterpumps, as well as each different series of original Pontiac V8 pulleys since the early 90's. One thing I don't like to do on original pump cores when torn down, is touch the gasket mounting surface on a bench mounted belt sander. In some rebuilder shops over the decades, that practice did occur, & while the practice can minimize pits or rust pocks on the gasket mtg surface, it also removes material from the flange & can move the water pump centerline oh so slightly back towards the block. If one has such a "resurfaced" waterpump core, one can always use double gaskets between the waterpump & the large divider plate to slightly move the centerline of the waterpump pulley forward.


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## Mav (Mar 5, 2017)

I have the 059 wp pulley so to go to a 4 1/2 pump I need to change wp pulley but not crankshaft pulley? And same alternator bracket will work? thanks.....


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Mav said:


> I have the 059 wp pulley so to go to a 4 1/2 pump I need to change wp pulley but not crankshaft pulley? And same alternator bracket will work? thanks.....


Yes, same manual strg alt bracket & same crank pulley. The single wp pulley needs to be a "129", have a nice clean used one if you are looking to trade.


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## Mav (Mar 5, 2017)

Thanks, worked on this today and I think alternator bracket was bent just a little...doesnt take much on the end to make it look crooked. Going to put it back together as is for now, but if I decide to go 4 1/2 I will get 2 new alum. pulleys, I wont let this 4 in. stuff go w/out checking w/you, thx again.


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## Mav (Mar 5, 2017)

By the way, I got marked down for wrong pump, do you know what this pump is correct for? Casting # is 38013-1 and has elongated diamond on right side. Also stamped "Made in USA". thx.


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