# I need help with a 1969 Pontiac 400 Engine!



## gpm6367 (Dec 31, 2006)

I am new to Pontiacs and am attempting to install a points dist in my 1969 Pontiac 400 in place of an HEI that had been installed. I brought engine around to #1 tdc (balancer line at 0) and wired firing order from there. I have not been able to get the car to run as it appears firing order is off even though I have triple checked everything. 

My continued problems make no sense...so I double check the shop manual and the procedure for setting the dist IF dist removed and engine turned over...pull plug #1, crank engine until compression felt and bring the crank around to position in picture # whatever...but picture # whatever shows the balancer mark lined up with first mark on timing tab...12 degree btdc...it is crystal clear that balancer is NOT brought around to 0 mark on timing tab. That is contrary to every engine I ever worked on...Is this a Pontiac thing? Are there any engine builders who know? Please email me at [email protected]. Thanks.
GM


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## lars (Sep 28, 2004)

That's standard procedure on any engine - you bring it around to 12 degrees on the compression stroke and drop the distributor in. This gets your timing close, since the engine does not fire at 0.

You have to make sure you're on compression, since the engine can be at TDC and be on the exhaust stroke. Keep in mind that a Pontiac distributor rotates opposite a Chevy, so you need to have your plug wires running the opposite direction from other GM cars.


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## gpm6367 (Dec 31, 2006)

*Thanks Lars...*

I have opinions ranging from my balancer has moved to no compression due to worn rings, fuel wash and cold temp....Nothing makes sense except I am not at tdc...

So, after considering everything, I am beginning to think that since I bumped with starter, and not by hand, when it popped out my napkin on compression stroke, even though I had already shut key off, engine continued around...so I was not at tdc but 180 degree out...only thing that makes sense...it is too cold today but weather changing and 40s rest of week...I will disconnect all belts and crank by hand to tdc...thanks for your time.

GM


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## camcojb (Dec 23, 2005)

gpm6367 said:


> I have opinions ranging from my balancer has moved to no compression due to worn rings, fuel wash and cold temp....Nothing makes sense except I am not at tdc...
> 
> So, after considering everything, I am beginning to think that since I bumped with starter, and not by hand, when it popped out my napkin on compression stroke, even though I had already shut key off, engine continued around...so I was not at tdc but 180 degree out...only thing that makes sense...it is too cold today but weather changing and 40s rest of week...I will disconnect all belts and crank by hand to tdc...thanks for your time.
> 
> GM


as above said, you are wiring the distributor counter-clockwise, not clockwise, right? 

Jody


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

gpm6367 said:


> I have opinions ranging from my balancer has moved to no compression due to worn rings, fuel wash and cold temp....Nothing makes sense except I am not at tdc...
> 
> So, after considering everything, I am beginning to think that since I bumped with starter, and not by hand, when it popped out my napkin on compression stroke, even though I had already shut key off, engine continued around...so I was not at tdc but 180 degree out...only thing that makes sense...it is too cold today but weather changing and 40s rest of week...I will disconnect all belts and crank by hand to tdc...thanks for your time.
> 
> GM


Last fall after installing my distributor 180 degrees out I had flames and backfiring in the carburetor. Are you getting power to the plugs?


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## gpm6367 (Dec 31, 2006)

*OK, now what...*

I was really confident, after considering all things, that I had missed tdc... 
So I get home as soon as possible and cant wait to get to garage...jet out after dinner, remove the #1 plug and stick in my paper towel, loosen the PS and Alt belts and put my breaker bar on the balancer, which has only one timing mark...I certainly have compression, as it seemed to take forever, fighting compression, cranking a 1/4 turn at a time from the floor until I finally popped out the paper towel. Beautiful...I bring it to 0 and am confident...pop the cap...THE F--KIN ROTOR IS IN THE SAME PLACE, WHERE IT SHOULD BE, AND NOT 180 DEGREES OUT!?!?WTF!?!?! And yes, I am running wires counter clockwise... 

So now I can say with confidence it is not the firing order. I must start looking at, and replacing, other ignition components. As background, I not only replaced the HEI dist with a remanufactured distributor with points, but replaced the engine wiring harness, which had been butchered, the regulator, alternantor and coil (that is the only component not new or remanufactured). Can a coil work intermittently or does it just crap out? I assumed the points and condenser in dist are good, as it is a remanufactured dist, but who knows. I should probably swap out the used coil first. I also need to know if the condenser on the + side of coil could have anything to do with it... 

Anyway, what do you think I should check, and in what order? The wire harness had no instructions...I have wiring diagram in shop manual...I can call the company that makes harness as they have a tech line...somone asked me about a ballast wire, but I dont know of one...
GM


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

I've had little experience with coils and distributors and lars would be the best source. I'll attempt helping you with my limited knowledge.

Remove the condenser and check the voltage on the positive terminal of the coil when the switch is turned on. If you are reading around 12 volts, more than likely you will not have a ballast wire in your harness. You can pick up a ballast resistor from your parts store. I believe the voltage should be around 8 volts using a points setup.

Remove the tach and any other wires from the negative terminal of the coil, now see if you are getting spark to the plugs. If no spark check the output of the coil. If you have voltage from the coil check the points, rotor and cap.

I replaced my points and condenser with Crane Cam's XR-i Points To Electronic Ignition and removed my ballast resistor. 

Sorry I can't be more help,


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## gpm6367 (Dec 31, 2006)

*Where is the ballast resistor and what does it look like?*

Is it a wire or what appears as a condenser on the + side of my coil? I have only what appears to be a condenser on the + side of coil and nothing but dist feed on - side of coil. I keep hearing about this ballast resistor and am unaware of its function or wether I am missing it or not...

If I rotate dist clockwise (into its rotation) the car almost runs and will pop through carb so I know I have some spark...the question is how much and can it be interupted or intermitant so as to appear to be misfiring?

The order I will proceed as process of elimation is to a) remove condenser off coil and try it; b) swap out coil and try it; c) clean point contact surface and try it; d) swap out points and condenser in dist and try it. Beyond that, if it still does not start, I am clueless...HELP!
GM


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

It will run without a ballast resistor and I believe the condenser is used to limit radio noise. I believe you are 180 degrees out. Pull the distributor rotate the rotor and reinsert the distributor.

Here is a picture of a ballast resistor, it is used to reduce the voltage into the coil on cars with points.


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## lars (Sep 28, 2004)

Ballast resistor is not used on a '69. The '69 has a resistor wire integral in the wire harness. 

The capcitor on the side of the coil is a radio suppression capacitor. It has no effect on the operation of the ignition system.


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## gpm6367 (Dec 31, 2006)

*I learned alot today...*

I spoke to the tech guy at the wire harness company for nearly an hour and he gave me a procedure to follow to isolate ignition system.

I was surprised to learn that a bad coil can work intermittently and a shorted condenser on coil could also cause irregular spark. I removed that condenser, changed points and condenser in dist. with AC Delco, pulled plugs and wiped them down and shot some Marvel Mystery Oil in cylinders in case I "washed down" walls with all the gas and cranking. Same results.

At his suggestion I picked up a test plug...plugs in line with a spark plug and light up with spark...if spark ok it should lite in a consistent pattern. Well, the light certainly lit, but I have no reference as to what is normal bright and what is dim. It lit but did not seem very bright. The pattern was consistent which is good. 

The tech seemed to think my problem was I had spark, but not enough. The culprit could still be the coil. I need a GM coil as the Mopar I have operates at a different resistance. He told me that 12,000 volts is needed to jump gap...anything less will be snuffed out by compression...he feels I am close but not enough spark to bridge compression. Anyway, I rolled the dist back in small increments and it flutters a lot like it want to turn over. Spark, but not enough, is consistent with the fluttering that I am now getting...

In the event that I have poor spark after replacing the coil, he gave me a procedure to hot wire the coil off the battery using a resistor ballast. This will isolate the ignition circuit from any potential problems with underdash wiring and/or the ignition switch, which is unique to 1969 and quite complicated. As stated above, the ballast resister is an in line wire in harness of GM cars under the dash. 

Question:will the timing light work when cranking or only when car turns over? In other words, can I have someone crank the car while I check to see where the timing mark is?

So, I am going to get a new coil tomorrow and try that. If the same, I will use the test plug on a car I know runs to see how bright the bulb lites to compare to the GTO spark. If it appears that the spark is good, and I have replaced the coil, well then it is a timing issue. I don't know what I would do then as I set tdc three times already. Need a good charge on the battery also...
GM


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## lars (Sep 28, 2004)

Yes, the timing light will work while just cranking the engine over. But why don't you just set the timing correctly with an ohm meter? You can set the exact firing point without ever turning the engine over.


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## wytnyt (May 17, 2008)

way i alwaya set when in qyestion
is
1. insure distributor is turning when being canked
2 make sure pioinys are at 17-18 thousands gap
3. hand tyrn dist..with key on to check for point spark
4.to remove balancer from timing setup[slipped balancer] pull no.1 plug
use long thin wire inserted in no one cylinder
HAND


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## wytnyt (May 17, 2008)

way i always set when in question
is
1. insure distributor is turning when being canked
2 make sure points are at 17-18 thousands gap
3. hand turn dist..with key on to check for point spark
4.to remove balancer from timing setup[slipped balancer] pull no.1 plug
use long thin wire inserted in no one cylinder
HAND TURN engine till piston is at tdc
mount dist.making sure it aligns with no.1 wire
if it trys to start,,,turn dist both ways try to set better timing
if it backfires,,,remove dist and rotate 1/2 turn,,,reinstall and repeat above step
hope this helps


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