# Need Help on engine rebuild



## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

Hey guys, as I mentioned earlier I got a great deal on a 1968 Pontiac 400 YS code engine. I just picked it up last night. The seller had it broken it doen completely. Although I do not have pics yet, I will post some tonight if possible or tomorrow otherwise.

First, the numbers on the heads match the numbers on the block. The heads look great. In fact, teh area where the rocker arms go look almost brand new. The outside of the heads look there age, for they could use cleaning up. The exhust ports have been mildly ported/polished. The valves are the problem for there is rust and corrosion on them. So I am guessing I will need a valve job and to clean (maybe blast) the combustion chambers. 

On block, yes it has its fair shar of 40 year old grime. There is a bit of corossion in the water passeges. There appears to have been moisture in some of the cylinders for ther is light rust in there. It is a 2 bolt main. The crank looks very good, may be in need of polishing. 

How do I go about prpearing this block for a rebuild? Do I take the block somewhere to get cleaned (i.e. acid bath or some other kind of dipping/washing)? Then I would need to get it pressure checked for cracks or other leaks? Then I would get it machined (honed or sleeved)? Does this sound right? Can some one give me an idea what I can expect in costs in all this. How much can I expect to spend in the rebuld? I am not looking to make race car just a very nice boulevard cruiser. I am looking to max out somewhere in the mid 400's for horsepower and torq. 

Any tips or advice would be highly appreciated.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Let me point you at a book... 

BARNES & NOBLE | How to Build Max-Performance Pontiac V-8s by Jim Hand, CarTech, Incorporated | Paperback

Lots of good information therein. The chapter on "Bulding Your Short Block" was actually written my Jim Lehart of http://www.centralviriginamachine.com, who's on this forum occasionally and goes by Mr. PBody.

When selecting a machine shop, it's important to be careful -- Pontiacs aren't Chevys, and shops who don't realize that can cause big problems....

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The more 'homework" you do, the more money you'll save and the more fun you'll have. You will also end up with a superior engine. What ^^^Bear said....also, be sure to research piston choice, combustion chamber size, and compression ratio. You will want a 9:1 CR motor for street use on pump gas. This is easily accomplised with special "dished" pistons. That way, you can run the good HP heads. You will want to check into better connecting rods, too. Read up on it and throw us your ideas. The most important thing, above all else, is to choose the RIGHT machine shop that does Pontiacs. They are not easy to find, but they are out there. The one listed in the above post is one that I would recommend.


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

Well guys, I appreciate the advice. I may have mentioned this before, but I am most definitely mechanically challenged. I know I will be replacing most of the internals of the engine. I know enough about the mechanical operation of an engine to be dangerous. 

I did assume my first step is to locate a reputable shop that specializes in Pontiacs. It is good to know that even though Chevy is a close cousin of Pontiac that they are indeed different. 

Bear, thanks for the heads up on the book. Gee, thanks for the heads up on compression ratio. 

On the first step of preparing the block, is there a special way or place I need to take the block to get cleaned. I mean as if it were a new or refurbished block? I have seen the Horse Power shows and vaguely remember seeing an engine block dipped into some kind of solution to throughly clean it. Is this a viable way to prep the engine block for the next step of machining (honing)? If so, what kind of business would do this?

On overall cost, would I be dreaming too much if I budget $3K-$4K total for this rebuild (including clean/prep, machining, rebuild heads, valve job, and all the parts & labor to a finished product)?


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Disamble the motor. Mark all the parts AND the original locations. Take the block and parts to a GOOD machine shop. Have the machinist MEASURE and check all the parts for usability. IF the block is good...it should be "tanked clean" THEN the first step is align hone/bore as necessary.....the rest of the build goes from there. EVERYTHING price wise depends on the condition of what you want to re-use and what you want/need to buy new......Eric


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

Eric Animal said:


> Disamble the motor. Mark all the parts AND the original locations. Take the block and parts to a GOOD machine shop. Have the machinist MEASURE and check all the parts for usability. IF the block is good...it should be "tanked clean" THEN the first step is align hone/bore as necessary.....the rest of the build goes from there. EVERYTHING price wise depends on the condition of what you want to re-use and what you want/need to buy new......Eric


Well the good and ad news is the engine came completely taken apart. I have a straight block with a box of parts, most, if not all of the bolt on parts are missing (carb,intake manifold, exhaust manifolds, starters, pulleys, brackets, distributor, , etc).

What I do have is a bare block that has the main caps and bearings, the crank w/balancer, virtually complete heads (minus rocker assembly), windage tray, valley pan, and a box of parts (includes pistons, rods, lifters, push rods, oil pump, and a few small items).

Now it got the numbers off the engine and here is what I got:
Casting #on rear of engine: 9790071 (1968 400 C.I.D., non-ram air)
Date code # on distributir pad: B088 (Feb 5, 1968)
engine code on front passenger side: 442871 YS (not totally sure what this means, I assume the number is the last six of the VIN from which it came and I know YS is good but I do not know what it means).
There is a "GM10" stamped on the front passenger side of block....don't know what this means either.

On heads:
Date code: B088 (same as engine, Feb 5, 1968)
Exhaust ports: G169......"G" on end port, "16" on center ports, and "9" on end port,

Thx Bear for giving me tge correct term for "tank cleaned". Can some one explain the YS code? I hear it is a good to have but do not know why. I know the engine is a 400 but the Year One chart is confusing on the YS code (looks like it is associated with the 350 on the chart).

So it looks like I have a bit of work ahead of me, so as soon as I finish up on the frame and chasis, I will start working on the engine.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

You've got esentially the same block I've got in my '69. YS was the "garden variety" GTO engine in cars with automatic transmissions. They usually had either 16 or 62 heads (center two exhaust ports) which were D-port heads with screw-in studs, 2.11 intake valves, 1.77 exhaust valves, 1.5:1 rockers, and guide plates. Your engine was cast in February '68, mine was in December '68 (for the '69 model year). Mine came with #62 heads, but it's wearing #722's now. The block is probably not drilled for 4-bolt mains al though I've heard that some 9790071's may have been. The 442871 is an engine sequencing number that doesn't mean anything really now -- it was used during the build process at the plant. If you have the whole VIN the engine came out of it would probably appear on the documents available from PHS.

There are quite a few internet sites that show how to interpret all the various codes and stampings found on Pontiac engine components. I use wallaceracing.com a lot, mostly because that one's easy for me to memorize  Google "Pontiac Engine Codes" and you'll find a plethora of them. It's always a good idea to cross check several because there can be mistakes... Always start with the date code to nail down the model year first. As you've discovered, the two-digit codes (like YS) were used in multiple model years, and in different years meant vastly different things. Same for heads.

Bear


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

Although the "YS" is the "garden variety" I assume it is a good engine to work with, correct? Once completed with the cleaning, prepping, machining, and full rebuild with quality parts, this engine should make for an excellent boulevard cruiser, right?

I just looked at the heads again, and there is what appears to be a "68" or "63" about an inch or two away from the date code. What is this number?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

mrvandermey said:


> Although the "YS" is the "garden variety" I assume it is a good engine to work with, correct? Once completed with the cleaning, prepping, machining, and full rebuild with quality parts, this engine should make for an excellent boulevad cruiser, right?


I sure hope so, it's what I'm running in mine  Here's a link to what my engine did on the dyno... http://www.garrettfamily.us/gto/docs/bestdyno.pdf



> I just looked at the heads again, and there is what appears to be a "68" or "63" about an inch or two away from the date code. What is this number?


That I'm not sure about...

Bear


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

A YS code 4oo is your basic automatic GTO engine. A good block to work from. May I suggest that you call Richie Hoffman at 516-316-5914. He is an excellent engine builder, and an avid Pontiac fan. He will answer "tech" questions for you, and give you a Fair price, and a good job on a build. If you would rather a big name, contact Butler Performance, or MR. Peabody here on this forum.....this might be a little complicated for your first time out. Bear, Jeff, myself and others here know our stuff, BUT, talking and explaining, dosen't mean you will "get it right thefirst time"....Sincerely, Eric


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

Eric Animal said:


> A YS code 4oo is your basic automatic GTO engine. A good block to work from. May I suggest that you call Richie Hoffman at 516-316-5914. He is an excellent engine builder, and an avid Pontiac fan. He will answer "tech" questions for you, and give you a Fair price, and a good job on a build. If you would rather a big name, contact Butler Performance, or MR. Peabody here on this forum.....this might be a little complicated for your first time out. Bear, Jeff, myself and others here know our stuff, BUT, talking and explaining, dosen't mean you will "get it right thefirst time"....Sincerely, Eric


Trust me, I truly appreciate Bear, Jeff and you, fo ryour advice and opinons have been invaluable. I know enough to trust experts in the field. Sadly when it comes time to rebuild this engine, I will be relying almost entirely on the experts. I am an expert in my field, but unfortunately that area is not mechanical skills.


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> I sure hope so, it's what I'm running in mine  Here's a link to what my engine did on the dyno... http://www.garrettfamily.us/gto/docs/bestdyno.pdf
> 
> Bear


WOW, impressive numbers. If I can even come close to those numbers I would be delighted beyond my dreams. Like I said, I do not plan on racing the car so your numbers may be better than I will actually achieve, but it makes for a nice goal.


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

Well with a little research, I think I discovered that although I do not have a Ram Air set up, it does appear to be the 400 with 350 HP and the heads, again, not the best but certainly doable with the larger valves. Assuming the block is indeed good (after tanking and machining), this will fit my needs,

If the engine was originally a 350 HP engine, with the right parts and right build, will it be very difficult to push it to 450 HP without using a blower or turbo?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

mrvandermey said:


> Well with a little research, I think I discovered that although I do not have a Ram Air set up, it does appear to be the 400 with 350 HP and the heads, again, not the best but certainly doable with the larger valves. Assuming the block is indeed good (after tanking and machining), this will fit my needs,
> 
> If the engine was originally a 350 HP engine, with the right parts and right build, will it be very difficult to push it to 450 HP without using a blower or turbo?


The only real differences between the YS and the Ram Air III were the cam and exhaust manifolds - both had D-port heads with very similar ports. The differences between the YS and the mighty Ram Air IV were cam, heads (significant), exhaust manifolds, and intake.

As to your question of 450 HP, "it depends". If you want to keep it a 400 with Pontiac iron heads, it's doable with the right parts (cam, head work, good exhaust). If you don't mind the cost of going with a stroker kit and aftermarket aluminum heads and are willing to deal with the consequences of a somewhat rowdy cam, a more reasonable number would be something in the 550HP range 

Regardless of which route you take, I highly recommend good aftermarket forged steel rods. The factory rods are the weak link in the *****... Yeah, you'll occasionally find one guy who's been spinning a set of factory rods to 6-grand and up "forever" with no problems, but for every one of those you find I'll show you 20 engines that were ruined when a factory rod let go and windowed the block. With the reasonable cost of good rods these days, it just doesn't pay to roll the dice.

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I have factory rods in both my GTO's for one reason: they didn't have good affordable aftermarket rods when I rebuilt them 25-30 years ago. Sure, they're sheet-peened, magged, balanced, and polished, but they're totally inferior to the new stuff. The next one I do will have aftermarket forged rods for sure. Starting at $249 for a set, they are cheap insurance that you will keep your engine from scattering.


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

Well the good (or bad) news is I essentially have just a bare block, a set or original heads, a crank and a box of useless used parts. So I was planning on redoing all the internals, definitely the pistons and rods. I agree a few hundred bucks is cheap insurance.

Bear, I am good with just keeping the HP in the mid 400's. 550+ sounds cool, but more than I need.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

mrvandermey said:


> Well the good (or bad) news is I essentially have just a bare block, a set or original heads, a crank and a box of useless used parts. So I was planning on redoing all the internals, definitely the pistons and rods. I agree a few hundred bucks is cheap insurance.
> 
> Bear, I am good with just keeping the HP in the mid 400's. 550+ sounds cool, but more than I need.


First things first. Do those heads have valves in them? I ask because you need to cc those heads to find out how big the chambers really are. Pontiac heads are known to vary quite a bit on either side of the factory specs.
If it works out that those #16's actually measure 72 cc's (factory spec), and also assuming the block will be bored +.030, then with KB/ICON IC891 pistons and everything else "nominal" (.042" head gasket, 4.160" gasket bore, +0.020 piston deck) then your static compression ratio will come in right at 9.338:1 -- that's a pretty good spot to be in for 93 octane. If you zero-deck the block and change nothing else, it'll be 9.72:1 --- my opinion is that would be pushing the envelope too much with iron heads. At 9.338:1 you'll still want "enough cam" to manage cylinder pressure to stay out of trouble. "Too rowdy" though and you'll have to worry about having enough idle vacuum to do things like operate power brakes, etc.

Just a few cc's of chamber volume either way can have a big effect on compression ratio so that's why it's so important to know exactly what you've got there.

Fun stuff to play with. 

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Since you have the block but no internals, I'd recommend giving Jim Lehert a call or a PM ( Mr. P Body) and discuss getting an entire rotating assembly (crank/rods/pistons). What Bear said about head cc-ing is absolutely correct, and will make all the difference between a fair engine and an excellent engine. You will need to know your cylinder head measurements BEFORE you order pistons to determine how much (if any) dish you need, etc., to arrive at around 9:1 compression.


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

Yes the heads have valves in them, although they definitely need replacing. The box of parts I got has many of the internals (rods, pistons, etc) but they all look worthless to me (especially after talking to you guys). I do also have the original crank, although it needs to be repolished.


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

Last night I was browsing ebay and other sites for parts for my engine rebuild. Specifically I was looking at forged rods, new pistons, rings, bearings, cams, oil pumps, lifters, roller rocker assemblies, valves, and etc. After seeing the prices for just the parts, basic and slightlyupgraded parts , but not counting aluminum heads or the labor for tanking, measuring, machining/honing and actually putting it altogether, I find it difficult to believe my budget of $3K-$4K is realistic. As such, would I be better off just buying a crate engine? One big issue I have with that idea is that I do not know of any reputable crate engines for Pontiac. It is not like Vick Edelbrock makes a crate engine for Pontiacs or such. I have seen one advertised on ebay by Tuff Dawgs, but I do not know anything about this company or its product and it is ebay....buyer beware.

In short, is a crate engine more economical than an engine rebuild? Will the crate engine perform as well (or close to) the performance of a quality rebuild? Does anyone know of a reputable crate engine company?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

> In short, is a crate engine more economical than an engine rebuild? Will the crate engine perform as well (or close to) the performance of a quality rebuild? Does anyone know of a reputable crate engine company?


Give Jim Lehart at CVMS a call (434 767 9915) and talk it over with him. They don't advertise it on their web site but I know they've built engines for people as far away as the Netherlands. I don't know of a single CVMS customer (including me) who's ever felt like they weren't treated fairly or got an inferior product.

Butler Performance sells Pontiac crate motors. They're probably the "biggest" in terms of being "the name". Their engines have been featured in several Pontiac cars that were done on the 'Overhaulin' TV show. Butler crate strokers are advertised on their web site at around $8500.00 --and up.

There are others out there, but I don't have enough information on any of them to be able to recommend one way or the other. You're going about it the right way though, talk to people who have had direct experience. When it comes to car stuff, things tend to devolve into religious wars pretty quickly. Listen carefully for factual information and try to separate it out from all the "opinions" and 3rd party gossip.

Bear


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

If you decide to go the rebuild road, I have a new set of comp cams 1.65 ratio roller tipped rocker arms prt # 1452-16 with a new bag of lock nuts I'd sell you for a song. I installed them on my car, but they don't fit my heads properly.


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

Assuming I go with the rebuild (which is likely since I can do it in phases), what kind of parts am I looking for?

Connecting rods: forged (I remember this from Bear's earlier post) 
Pistons: flat, domed or dished?
Crank: polish out original or get new one (then forged or cast)?
Rocker arm assemblies: standard, roller rocker or hydraulic rockers?
On things like cams, lifters, push rods, valves, valve springs, oil pump. rings, head gaskets, engine gaskets, and even bolts, I simply do not have enough knowledge about to ask any questions other than factory (new but factory specs) or aftermarket?
What size stroke is ideal for a 400 (i.e. 4.25 vs. 3.75)?

On bolt-ons, what about heads versus stock exhaust manifolds?
Intake: factory or aftermarket (i.e. Edelbrock)?
Carb: factory or after market (i.e. Edelbrock)?
Distributor: factory (is there a difference between the 400 and 350 here?) or after market (i.e HEI)?
Water pump: factory or aftermarket?

I assume things like starter, alternator, brackets, fan, pullies, radiator (maybe) and etc can be taken off the donor Pontiac 350 (complete engine) that I have, correct? What else (boltons and exterior engine parts) can be effectively swapped over from the donor 350 to the 400?


Why I am thinking of it, the factory engine is blue with chrome valve covers, correct? Is the entire engine blue (block, heads, intake, timing chain cover, water pump and oil pan)? If not, what parts are not blue?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

That's a mouthfull, for sure 

First thing is to make some decisions. Do you care how "original" it is, or looks? What's the intended use (I think you said mostly street cruising, respectable power, but not an all out race motor - right?) and (important) budget. 

For a street motor on pump gas, you care a lot about keeping compression ratio / cylinder pressure in a range that will live and stay out of detonation. In that case, forget about domed pistons, and maybe even flat tops (depending on other parameters).

Crank. Unless you're making 600 HP+ or regularly spnning it past 6000 rpm, a good cast crank is plenty strong enough. Whether it's a good original or an aftermarket doesn't matter a whole lot.

Valve train (cam, lifters, pushrods, valves, springs, rockers, etc) tailored for intended use again. Hydraulic lifters (roller or flat) are quieter and slightly simpler for the street. Solids (again roller or flat) make more noise, but also more power. Rollers are going to be more expensive to purchase than flat tappet lifters, in either variety. The significant point is that everything in the valve train needs to be matched so that it all works well together. Cam selection is important as it determines the personality of the engine and where it likes to "live", rpm-wise, and has a big influence on power and drivability.

Stroke - not really any such thing as an ideal stroke - it depends on your goals. Longer strokes mean more cubic inches, more leverage on the crank and therefore more torque/power, but also introduce more stresses on everything.

Headers vs. exhaust manifolds. Headers make more power, but are usually a royal pain to install and fit. The reproduction "ram air" exhaust manifolds fit well, but they're not going to look or sound like headers, and they won't make quite as much power. Pick one. 

Heads: Iron Pontiac or aluminum aftermarket? Iron heads look more original, and are generally less expensive, but more prone to detonation problems if not set up right. Aluminum heads - expensive, don't look original, but make the most power and will tolerate more compresion / cylinder pressure before getting into detonation. If you've got it in the budget, then regardless of which path you choose I'd send them off to Dave Wilcox at CVMS and have him "optimize" them. He's not anywhere near cheap, but I promise whatever you get back will make the most power on your setup and combination or parts that it's capable of making.

Ignition: another 'preference" thing. For street use even the factory points distributor will work just fine. You're not likely to run beyond its capabilities unless you're running high rpm on the track.

Intake and carb: Again, for street crusing nothing works better than the factory iron dual plane intake - it's been proven time and time again to be true - especially if you take the time to port match it to your heads. Same for carburetion. It's hard to beat a well and correctly set up QJet. They get maligned a lot by people who don't understand them and don't want to, but their design permits much more precise control over fuel mixture in all modes of operation than does "brand H".

It's a process... Ifn' it wuz me, I'd make the big descisions first (displacement, compression, rotating assembly, cam, valve train, heads) then start fleshing out the details of how to get that done. I'd make the other decisions later, influenced by 'taste' and budget.

Bear


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

I did a little internet searching last night and found this company in Houston, TX that builds Pontiac engi es at a price I can accept. Here is a description of one of two Pontiac 400 engines this place builds. Now here is what I am thinking, with shipping and core charge, this may not be a grand deal, but it might mean I may be able to find a quality Pontiac engine builder in California that can build my engine to these specs for around the same price. Do you you think it is reasonable for me to think I can build my engine to these specs for about this price ($3K-$7K, depending on whether I go with or without aluminum heads and/or other upgrades)?


PONTIAC “THE GTO” 400/366

Below are specifications for a custom-built, performance long block PONTIAC “THE GTO” 400/366 -400 HP with 410 ft lbs torque performance longblock:

* 400 block bored, honed, decked and align honed
* Performance camshaft: 214/224 @ .050 (specs may change) 
* .465 lift 112 lobe center
* New cam bearings 
* Balanced rotating assembly with balancer
* Reground 3.75” stroke crankshaft ( add 350.00 for new)
* Forged rods with ARP® rod bolts 
* New performance bearings
* Performance pistons with Molly® rings( add 400.00 for forged) 
* 9.3 to 1 compression ratio 
* New timing set 
* New high volume oil pump 
* New performance gasket set
* Pontiac Heads includes: 
* 2.11/1.77 new stainless valves 
* Aluminum heads available (–add 2000.00 )
* Bronze guides 3 angle seats 
* Matching springs 
* New push rods and stamped rockers (roller rockers add 350.00) 
* Painted Pontiac blue
* Bowl porting 
* Stage 2 porting ( add 695.00)
* Dial in cam

Regular Price $3295.00.00 plus core and shipping

Your cost $2995.00 !!!!!!!!!! plus core and shipping


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Sounds too cheap, to me. If quality work, an excellent deal. Does this guy/shop have any referrals?? Also, 410 ft lbs of torque is listed. This is less than a stock GTO engine by about 30-40 ft lbs. What camshaft is specified? What heads? The forged pisons would be a "must have", IMO.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I'm not familiar with Precision Engine, so can't offer an opinion on them. I'd want them to be more specific on parts (brands and models) before I spent any money with them. From the list, for me, roller rockers, forged pistons, and stage 2 porting would be mandatory. It also bothers me to see aluminum heads offered with no accompanying information on associated affect on power and what compression ratio they use for those heads (hint: good aluminum heads will make quite a bit more power, and if they build their aluminum headed motors to 9.3:1 also - then they either don't know what they're doing or are doing everything 'on the cheap'. Either way, that would be a show stopper for doing business with these guys.)

You realy should call Jim. He'll talk with you and tell you the truth, even if you don't spend any money with him.

Bear


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

do a google search of them , sounds like they have changed ownership recently...


Heres some shops in your area call around find one that Specializes in Pontiacs, get references with pontiac motors from a few years ago, call them and see what they think of their motor now....:cheers

Crankshaft Company - California Machine Shops and Engine Builders

I would find someone local and save on shipping not on parts


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

That is my poin I would like to find someone in N. CA that will build my engine, preferably using my block, with similar specs (forged rods, forged pistons, etc w/9.3 compression and 400+ HP with 440+ torq) for around $4,000 w/o aluminum heads or $6,000 w/aluminum heads


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## stracener (Jul 27, 2010)

I went the rebuild road, and ended up spending tons more money than I would have if I would have bought the most tricked out motor available from the folks on the forums... but I did it that way because I didn't know what I was doing, AND it was a father son project that we both enjoyed, and learned a lot. So it was worth it. 

But, just in case you're not feeling like hemorrhaging cash -- here are some links to some good motors that are up for sale right now... of course you would have to work out shipping, but there are good deals to be had if you're not intent on building it yourself.

461 Stroker 

469 Race Motor 

Basic 455

My favorite 483


Good luck. If you don't find something in NoCal, I agree with Bear... call Jim at CVMS to see what he can do for you, or at least help you shape your decision making. Happy Holidays.


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

stracener said:


> I went the rebuild road, and ended up spending tons more money than I would have if I would have bought the most tricked out motor available from the folks on the forums... but I did it that way because I didn't know what I was doing, AND it was a father son project that we both enjoyed, and learned a lot. So it was worth it.
> 
> But, just in case you're not feeling like hemorrhaging cash -- here are some links to some good motors that are up for sale right now... of course you would have to work out shipping, but there are good deals to be had if you're not intent on building it yourself.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip


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