# Pan removal



## bwell65 (Jan 22, 2020)

*Is it possible to drop the oil pan on a 65 GTO without pulling the engine?
I may need a new oil pump?*


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Depends on what you consider "possible". You'll have to disconnect the motor mounts + exhaust + etc so that you can lift the engine to create space for the edges of the oil pan to fit between the main caps and the cross member. To do that, you may also have to separate the engine and transmission. Once you go that far, it's not -that- much more work to go ahead and pull it.


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## the65gto (Oct 9, 2008)

A short time after I bought my GTO, it developed a rear main seal leak. Still under warranty, stopped at dealer and said they had a new type "kit" from GM to be able to remove the pan without pulling motor. . After 3 days, I called and they said a few of their tech's messed with the kit for 2 days and gave up on it and pulled the engine.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

bwell65 said:


> *Is it possible to drop the oil pan on a 65 GTO without pulling the engine?
> I may need a new oil pump?*


As pointed out, not the best solution, and you better be a good mechanic with small hands. Have a cell phone in your shirt pocket and within easy reach just in case you have to call 911 because the block fell on your hand/arm and you can't get free - and your in a lot of pain. LOL

I did my '68 Lemans 350CI years ago when the oil pump quit. I removed and replaced the oil pump without pulling the engine, but would not do it again.

Things to do -
Get the front of the car high enough so you can work under it on your back.
Pull distributor cap so you don't break it up against the firewall.
Remove the motor mounts.
Remove fan shroud and possibly the fan if it is real close to the radiator so you don't put the fan through it. Keep and eye on this if you do not pull the fan - I didn't and was OK.
Depending on your exhaust system, if it is close to the floor pan, you may be restricted on how high you can raise the engine off the mounts.
You will be limited to lift by the bellhousing hitting the firewall.
I used an engine lift to get the engine up.

Then you have to remove all the pan bolts. 
Then pry the pan from the block and it will drop down onto the crossmember. It should slide back a little and it'll have more space at the rear where you need to work. That space between the pan rail and the block is all you have to work with - couple inches. Block/support the engine in a manner it will not drop and crush your hand while you have it up in the engine.
Scrape the old pan gasket off the pan/block surfaces with a safety blade making sure all the scrapings fall out of the pan and not into it.
Then you are ready to look inside and identify the 2 bolts holding the oil pump on. Snake your hand with wrench/socket up in there and remove the 2 bolts. Get ready as the oil pump drops down, so will the oil pump shaft. Retrieve the 2 bolts and snake the oil pump with pickup out of the pan.

I was able to get my hand/arm in the pan sump area with a rag and wiped it clean of sludge and crud in the bottom of the pan. Figured I might as well since I could.

To install, you gotta now put the oil pump shaft back up into the hole in the block. It has to go in the same way it fell out. Your stock one should have two "spurs" - one on each side. The smooth end of the shaft goes up in towards the distributor first. BUT, now is the time to replace that old factory oil shaft with a good aftermarket hardened one - very inexpensive insurance. It may or may not have the "spurs", so it can go in either way.

Now when you try to install the shaft, it's going to slip right back out each time because of its weight and there is nothing to hold it in place. So put some wheelbearing grease on it and this will hold it up - this is what I did. Spin the shaft until if locks into the distributor shank.

Next install your pump/screen. You will have a gasket to install. Use a little grease to stick it to the oil pump so it does not slide off. Might have to rotate the pump shaft to mate up with the oil pump shaft you just inserted. Hold it up with one hand and insert your bolts by hand making sure you do not cross-thread. Tighten the bolts. Then you have to torque the bolts with a torque wrench.

Then put a little adhesive, silicone, gasket cement, etc., on the pan gaskets. Get the holes all lined up correctly. Then lift the pan and insert your bolts and torque them down.

Once done, you can begin to drop the engine back into place. Add oil. May take a good day or more to go this route.

I think that covers it.

Now, the best way is to pull the engine, turn it upside down, remove the pan and have easy access to everything and do what needs to be done with far less frustration.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

I did it once. So much has to come off to get the pan out, and you're still working on your back. Cleaning the pan gasket off with the pan still under the block will be a bear trying to keep the scraped off gasket pieces out of the pan. After doing it once (1969), I will never ever do it again.


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

Not to mention all the oil dripping constantly ,on the floor, your hair, face and arms. Screw that ,pull that M fer


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

I would pull it and while it is out clean up the engine compartment and replace other things also with it out of the way


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## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

I guess another thing to consider is there's a reason you think you need a pump. The bulk of the things that go wrong from a bad oil pump aren't easily/possibly fixed while the engine is under the hood.


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## bwell65 (Jan 22, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> As pointed out, not the best solution, and you better be a good mechanic with small hands. Have a cell phone in your shirt pocket and within easy reach just in case you have to call 911 because the block fell on your hand/arm and you can't get free - and your in a lot of pain. LOL
> 
> I did my '68 Lemans 350CI years ago when the oil pump quit. I removed and replaced the oil pump without pulling the engine, but would not do it again.
> 
> ...


I’m thinking I’ll take everyone’s advise and pull the engine. Thanks for sharing your experience. It helped me make up my mind.


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## bwell65 (Jan 22, 2020)

Thanks everyone for your input. I’ll take everyone’s advise and pull the engine.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Very smart, once out all the work and checks are much easier and you will do a better job, might want to clean it up to and see what else is easily done....


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

bwell65 said:


> Thanks everyone for your input. I’ll take everyone’s advise and pull the engine.


Yep, figured if I provided a detailed experience you might re-consider and make it easier. Good time to degrease, detail/paint the engine compartment, firewall, inner fenders, etc..

You can also take a look at the back of the engine for any signs of an oil leak or rear main leak. Just a good way to look all things external over. If all looks well, and not sure if the engine has had a recent rebuild, but if everything checks out and you plan on reinstalling it, I would install all new freeze plugs on the bottom/sides of the block at the engine mounts. Much easier to tackle this out of the car than have one leak/let go and then have to address it with the engine installed - just my opinion.


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## 29585 (Aug 4, 2013)

PontiacJim said:


> As pointed out, not the best solution, and you better be a good mechanic with small hands. Have a cell phone in your shirt pocket and within easy reach just in case you have to call 911 because the block fell on your hand/arm and you can't get free - and your in a lot of pain. LOL
> 
> I did my '68 Lemans 350CI years ago when the oil pump quit. I removed and replaced the oil pump without pulling the engine, but would not do it again.
> 
> ...


not trying to be captain obvious but, wouldn't the the 1st step be to drain the oil? 😅


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

clevelandpartsguy said:


> not trying to be captain obvious but, wouldn't the the 1st step be to drain the oil? 😅


Yes of course but you still have residual oil dripping especially when you remove the pump


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## gtomike455 (May 24, 2020)

bwell65 said:


> *Is it possible to drop the oil pan on a 65 GTO without pulling the engine?
> I may need a new oil pump?*


before you go to all that trouble, make sure the pump is the problem.


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## bwell65 (Jan 22, 2020)

gtomike455 said:


> before you go to all that trouble, make sure the pump is the problem.


As I understand, the 2 most likely reasons would be oil pump or bearings. Is there something else I should check?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

bwell65 said:


> As I understand, the 2 most likely reasons would be oil pump or bearings. Is there something else I should check?


What are your symptoms? No-to-low oil pressure? How many miles on the engine?


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

We had another discussion recently about a rear main seal leak,...before pulling the engine I would make sure it is not from too much crankcase pressure. If it is a new seal will leak 

Go back and read some of our discussions on PCV and main seal leaks. If you get or have the crankcase pressure correct, then the main seal may still need replacing, just don’t pull the motor to do it if the problem is a bad PCV system .

By the way, next time you are at the cruise in walk around and see the number of cars with oil blowing out the valve cover breathers, and valve cover gaskets. Talk to the guys, often they have a bad main seal leak too. Crankcase pressure causes this from bastardized and grossly underperforming PCV systems.

So just make sure. You will get it.


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## bwell65 (Jan 22, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> What are your symptoms? No-to-low oil pressure? How many miles on the engine?


Per the original post, engine has about 20psi at idle on start up. Pressure falls to 2 to 3 pounds at idle after warming up.
Not sure of mileage, purchased at auction in January was told it had recent rebuild.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Oil pressures and crankcase pressures are not the same readings,...oil pressure effects crankcase pressure, but so does many other things.

Crankcase you should be at a slight vacumn, 1 to 3 Hg,....which is no pressure when accelerating, or better yet anytime that you can get it. It is related to your PCV system, not your oil pressure directly......


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

So back to your oil pressure, yes agree way too low, at startup and idle,....Make sure that you do look under your valve covers, as a bent pushrod can drop your oil pressure tremendously, springs, lifters as well.


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## bwell65 (Jan 22, 2020)

Lemans guy said:


> Oil pressures and crankcase pressures are not the same readings,...oil pressure effects crankcase pressure, but so does many other things.
> 
> Crankcase you should be at a slight vacumn, 1 to 3 Hg,....which is no pressure when accelerating, or better yet anytime that you can get it. It is related to your PCV system, not your oil pressure directly......


I don’t understand this. All I know is my oil pressure gauge shows no pressure at idle after warming up.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

bwell65 said:


> Per the original post, engine has about 20psi at idle on start up. Pressure falls to 2 to 3 pounds at idle after warming up.
> Not sure of mileage, purchased at auction in January was told it had recent rebuild.


OK, I know I read it, but it slipped my mind being further down into the post.


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## bwell65 (Jan 22, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> OK, I know I read it, but it slipped my mind being further down into the post.


👍


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