# My 455 core measured 5* over



## par4n1 (Jan 28, 2010)

My machinist suggests that I bore my motor 30 over. He said 5* is right on the edge of needing the work done. Do you agree It should bore at 30 over?


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## danthepontiacman (Jul 5, 2008)

question, why would he want to automatically bore it 30 over? You can get 10 over and 20 over pistons, seems unneeded to cut more meat out of the block then needed.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

danthepontiacman said:


> question, why would he want to automatically bore it 30 over? You can get 10 over and 20 over pistons, seems unneeded to cut more meat out of the block then needed.


Maybe the #5 is so damaged it needs to go 30 over to get to clean meat?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

par4n1 said:


> My machinist suggests that I bore my motor 30 over. He said 5* is right on the edge of needing the work done. Do you agree It should bore at 30 over?



I am sure your machinist knows. 30 over is not a problem. I took my 455 60 over to clean it up - but it had to go 60 over to get it cleaned up.

danthepontiacman is correct in that you can just as easily get pistons sized 10, 20 over to minimize the amount of material removed and thus leave more to bore out later. But, most shops clean/square up a bore to 30 over. However you go, your machinist should suggest you have pistons in hand before he performs his final hone so as to fit the pistons to the bore.


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## par4n1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Well honesty I thought 30 was sort of a mimium standard. It does have some rust inside some cylinders so maybe 30 was more of my idea. I will ask him. I guess its always the norm to bore the minumium and then increase if necessary.


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## par4n1 (Jan 28, 2010)

PontiacJim said:


> I am sure your machinist knows. 30 over is not a problem. I took my 455 60 over to clean it up - but it had to go 60 over to get it cleaned up.
> 
> danthepontiacman is correct in that you can just as easily get pistons sized 10, 20 over to minimize the amount of material removed and thus leave more to bore out later. But, most shops clean/square up a bore to 30 over. However you go, your machinist should suggest you have pistons in hand before he performs his final hone so as to fit the pistons to the bore.


Well it is not going to happen before Christmas so I will mention giving him a piston. I guess that will beg another question in the near future. I need to learn about what type i pistons I need to buy. 

He is also magnafluxing(sp?) my x6-4 heads. He wasnt a big fan of those for some reason; he was all about high compression. I fought him back with my limited knowledge. And he was like "whatever" . They will be good for my 455 correct?


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## AlaGreyGoat (Jul 6, 2006)

If you go with old style forged pistons, I thought you need at least
.005 clearance. Plus, you can vary the compression with those heads.

Larry


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

first thing that came to mind when I read this is the cyl bores were showing wear, very typical on a higher mileage 455 core. ordering custom 455 pistons at .010 or .020 overbore can be done, but can you get a ring pack for them? the ring pack determines what overbore.


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## par4n1 (Jan 28, 2010)

AlaGreyGoat said:


> If you go with old style forged pistons, I thought you need at least
> .005 clearance. Plus, you can vary the compression with those heads.
> 
> Larry


Larry I will need to let others chime in and I will listen and learn.


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Why would anyone use heavy 40 year old technology forged pistons in a build today?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

6X-4 heads are said to be about 93cc's and will give you in the range of a 9.5 compression on a 455 depending on the piston choice and how many cc's the valve reliefs are and which gasket thickness you choose. What also comes into play is if you zero deck the block or not. You need to calculate all this when ordering your pistons and even your head gasket thickness. 9.5 is about the limit your really want for an iron head and pump gas in my opinion.

Using the 98cc 7K3 heads on my .060 455, Keith Black Icon pistons having 11cc's for the valve reliefs, stock piston height which is .020" down in the hole, and Cometic .027" head gaskets. My compression will be 9.0 which is what I wanted. You then need to take into account your intake valve closing point in degrees at ABDC to figure the dynamic compression. With my cam choice, this comes out to 8.0 dynamic compression which puts me about as high as I want for pump gas -which I can play around with a bit based on how I degree the cam. And that is what you need to know to get things right.


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## par4n1 (Jan 28, 2010)

:eek2:


PontiacJim said:


> 6X-4 heads are said to be about 93cc's and will give you in the range of a 9.5 compression on a 455 depending on the piston choice and how many cc's the valve reliefs are and which gasket thickness you choose. What also comes into play is if you zero deck the block or not. You need to calculate all this when ordering your pistons and even your head gasket thickness. 9.5 is about the limit your really want for an iron head and pump gas in my opinion.
> 
> Using the 98cc 7K3 heads on my .060 455, Keith Black Icon pistons having 11cc's for the valve reliefs, stock piston height which is .020" down in the hole, and Cometic .027" head gaskets. My compression will be 9.0 which is what I wanted. You then need to take into account your intake valve closing point in degrees at ABDC to figure the dynamic compression. With my cam choice, this comes out to 8.0 dynamic compression which puts me about as high as I want for pump gas -which I can play around with a bit based on how I degree the cam. And that is what you need to know to get things right.


PontiacJim......HOLY COW Ive got i lot to learn. And Im still working on this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLDgQg6bq7o


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## oldskool (Apr 26, 2015)

Pinion head said:


> Why would anyone use heavy 40 year old technology forged pistons in a build today?


Price ??? 

They are strong & well proven, over the years. If you use stock rods and crank, you don't even have to rebalance. I'm not guessing. I built several cast rod, TRW piston, 455's and never had a single one balanced. They probably made about 400hp & 500ft lbs of torque. We shifted at 5000rpm, & set the rev limiter at 5500rpm. Ran down into the high 11's, in bracket cars--probably well over a thousand passes. No bottom end failures.

Could we have made more power, turned higher rpm & lower ET's, with light, more expensive pistons & rods, with the thinner rings ? Sure. 

We could have made even more power and ran even lower ET's with the correct roller cam, stall converter and rear gear. So, why didn't we ? Price. I bought TRW pistons and used stock rods and converters, because they were cheaper than the higher priced racing parts. Would I have rather had the better parts ? Sure. But I had the choice of racing what I did, or not racing at all. So, I understand building what you can afford, rather than what you would rather have.

You can take the piston question a few steps farther. Like: Why would anybody use a 40 year old factory block, in a non numbers matching build today, when you can buy an aluminum aftermarket block, which is lighter, stronger, and better in every way? Why run 460 something cubic inches, when you can run 505 or 535 cubes ? Why run a HFT cam when you can run a roller cam ? And I could go on and on. But. ya'll get the pic. Some guys are on a budget and simply can't afford the high end parts.

And, once you start adding parts like the lighter pistons, that leads to other things, which increase the cost more and more. The lighter pistons will require balancing, which is about $200 or more extra. The narrow file fit rings are higher and will cost more to have someone get the gaps right.

A complete roller cam set-up will probably cost over $1000 more than a HFT set-up. So, why don't everybody build Pontiac engines, with the best possible parts ? Did I mention PRICE, already ?

Having a complete Pontiac engine built, with the best parts available, will cost WELL over $10,000, today. For anyone who does not believe that, you can contact Butler, KRE, or most any of the other big name Pontiac shops and get their price on an aftermarket block engine with a forged crank, roller cam, alum heads, etc. 

The high price of good Pontiac engines, is the reason many guys go with Chevy power. You can sometimes buy an equal amount of power for about half the price. That's just a fact. So, I'd rather see a guy build a low budget Pontiac engine, with heavy SP pistons, than switch to Chevy power, just because he couldn't afford the high end Pontiac stuff. Hey, this is just my opinion. I don't have a problem with anyone who disagrees with it.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I'm with oldskool. I still have an nos set of .030" forged TRW's from 1980 new in the box. I would use them in a heartbeat. Light and new is good, but not everything. Outside the box, heavier pistons mean more inertia (as well as more stress on the crank!) and that inertia helps with engine torque at low rpm. That's why flywheels weigh 30 pounds. Slower to rev than an aluminum disc, but more 'oomph' out of the hole. A lot of the Model T guys run the stock cast iron pistons for just this reason: a 200RPM idle (not possible with aluminum slugs) and more torque off the line. And the fact that the engine is 'all in' by about 1800 rpm. So, if you have a 6,000 rpm redline Pontiac engine with the old heavy forged pistons, you are leaving a bit on the table, but in the street world, you'd never even know the distance. Been running heavy forged in my '65 389 that I built in '81, and in my '67 400 I built in '88, and they are still in there hauling the frieght. On a brand new build, I'd probably go with the new high tech rods and pistons, though. But you are looking at $$$.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

par4n1 said:


> :eek2:
> 
> PontiacJim......HOLY COW Ive got i lot to learn. And Im still working on this one
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLDgQg6bq7o



LOL. His only fault in the whole explanation is that he did not incorporate the Flannigan bilateral bejesus magnacrystal. If he had slipped this in line with the corpus torsional bellow I think the damn thing might just have work for them. Just sayin', but I'm no rocket scientist. :thumbsup:


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Have had numerous 455's and 400's built with TRW L2359's and L2262's. A few 455's with Ross pistons, including the WM for my 72 T/A slight domes...now those were expensive. The first 400 I had built in the 80's had L2262's with Mopar 340 pins and rebuilt reheat treated '58-62 forged rods (AKA rubber rods). Technology has come a long way, being limited to those $350 rubber rods and heavy forged pistons, both had to be honed to accept the lightweight 340 pins....different age, that was all I had avail. I considered BME super rods from HO at the time but was afraid of them in a street build.

The 2262's today have a better thermal expansion rate so don't have to run as wide a clearance as decades ao, but, stock, they still have a heavy near 250 gram pin. The old L2359's weren't any better, the newer 2359's run a near 200 gram pin, but if you want to run a 50 gram lighter pin, add in the price for the lightweight pins, then machining of the pin bores for spiral locks. What a value...with todays modern SpeedPro 2359, still have a heavy piston combo. No Thanks, I've tore down multiple dozens of rebuilt 455's and tons more core 455's, have my own view on what limits longevity. On my own keeper car short block builds I'd rather pony up a little more for longevity and durability. Several are original block round port cars, and rebuilt cast rods and light pin modded 2359's are not happening.

As far as build pricing goes, have nothing in the pipeline to build that would run anywhere near 10K. I get a kick out of some of the build prices thrown about, Sure if you have to use a "boutique" builder to whack you $700 for a generic 70's 400 block core and then those "oh you gotta have em" alum heads, a roller cam and lifters, $650 headers, yada, yada, top it off with a $700 aftermarket Holley, and then get charged a day on their engine dyno...oh yeah, sure can see getting to 10K. In one of my older builds, a 4.05 stroke "990" crank 451, with Ross pistons and Eagle rods, I was in the built short block for little over $3K. Price wouldnt be much more today. A build am currently putting the pen to start sourcing pistons and rings for, is for my '72 LeMans 400 4 spd Post car. Plan is to cut the "990" crank down out of the 451 and shim the thrust bearing so it will fit in the 72 400 block. Block will be shortfilled and will get main studs. Pistons will most likely be AutoTecs, too good a value. Light weight, choice of pin heights, affordable.


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## oldskool (Apr 26, 2015)

"...Having a complete Pontiac engine built, with the best parts available, will cost WELL over $10,000, today. For anyone who does not believe that, you can contact Butler, KRE, or most any of the other big name Pontiac shops and get their price on an aftermarket block engine with a forged crank, roller cam, alum heads, etc..."

Alum block -- $4700 + shipping
Forged crank-- $ 700
Ross customs -- $ 800
Oliver rods -- $1300
High end rings-- $ 250
Complete Roller
cam set-up -- $1500
Cometic gaskets- $ 200
Pan,tray,scraper,
pump & pickup -- $ 500
Alum heads/blts - $2800
Bearings & misc
gaskets,etc -- $ 250
Alum intake -- $ 400

If my math is correct, we're already over $13,000, just in parts alone. And several of the parts listed are not nearly the best, most expensive parts available. And I didn't even list a carb. So, even if you can do ALL the machine and assembly work yourself, there's no way to build a "Pontiac" engine, with the best available parts, for less than $10,000.

Now, IF you already have plenty of used core parts, AND can do ALL the assembly work yourself, Then, and only then, can you build a $3000 iron head Pontiac engine, using $500 pistons & new forged rods.

The cheapest pistons that I am aware of are the Auto-Tec, for $450 + shipping. So, lets call 'em $480. I'm sure there are some guys who know where to buy most or all the parts I mentioned in this post cheaper than the prices I know about-OK. The cheapest rods I know about are the RPM 5140's, for $288 shipped. But, these are press-fit rods. So, I'd go with the RPM H-beams, to take advantage of the Auto-Tec's floating pins, & the stronger 4340 H-beams. So, I'll round off the price of the rods & pistons to $850

Now--assuming that someone does not have a core, the cheapest source that I know of for a 455 Pontiac block & crank is $800. And that's if you go pick it up. 

More Pontiac Engines 455/400 - PY Online Forums

So, for this post I'll figure $800 for a core 455.

455 Core -- $800
Rods & Pistons - $850
Rings -- $115
Bearings -- $150
Sum cam/lifters- $115
Crower springs --$125
Oil pump & shaft-$ 50
FP gasket set --$ 70

If my math is correct, that puts us at $2275, before any work at all is done to the block. So, you have to add in the machine shop prices to clean the block and check it for cracks, and to see if it can be bored safely to the next larger size.

If it checks out OK, then there are all the necessary machining operations, to PROPERLY prepare a Pontiac block, for assembly--square & machine the decks, bore & hone the cylinders with a head plate, file the ring end gaps correctly, assemble rods & pistons and do what's needed to get proper clearances, balance the entire rotating assembly, check & hone or align bore the mains if needed, install the cam brgs, tap and install oil galley plugs, grind and polish crank to correct bearing clearances, do final assembly, & etc. So, what is the aprox cost for all that--by a shop who knows how to PROPERLY prepare a Pontiac block ? $800 ? $1000 ? $1200 $1500 ? We're already over $3000, just for the shortblock. And I haven't even mentioned new stainless valves, bronze guides and a complete vale job on the heads. And if they don't wanna use the low comp 455 heads, there'll be a another $200 or so for some good 6x head cores. Keep in mind, MOST guys cannot do any of this work themselves, and don't have the core parts laying around. 

I think that more than clarifies my point. The average guy can't have a good solid Pontiac engine built, with forged rods and Auto-Tec pistons for $3000. 

The cheapest price I know of for a decent 455 is the Len Williams 455 crate engine, with Eagle crank & rods, for $4695 + shipping.

455 Long Block

So, if he added light pistons and stainless valves, his price would probably be just over $5000 + shipping. 

One thing seems to always lead to another. For a few hundred more you can go with a 400 block stroker. A #481988 block and a good forged crank stroker assembly would make a good strong shortblock. The forged cranks are about $400 extra, but most think they are more than worth it. A Len Williams forged crank stroker shortblock will be just under $4000, and just over $4000 from Sandoval.

455 Short Block

pontiac crate engines


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## maktope (May 22, 2013)

Pretty spot on. I used the best parts I could afford shop doing the work. Had factory block machined so I didn't have the expense of aftermarket block and still cost me well over 10k. Rotating assembly and heads were over 5k. It gets steep very quickly


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Don, nearly everything you have listed in your 13K build I wouldnt need, not many of us would need, so the comparison is apples and oranges. For a very expensive race engine build, sure, but for a very healthy street strip engine, a lot of the above is massive overkill for the type of engine have built, and am building. On my 451, use it as an example as it was reasonably built and is a very strong pump gas stock block, iron head Street/strip engine, With a roller cam and more work on the heads it is easily a high ten second bracket engine. As it was built, didn't even have 5k in it, carb to pan, and that was with a tough to find 990 crank and 260 cfm ported 7k3's. One of my most concerning upcoming expenses is working over a pair of 197's, hopefully to Jim Roberston. the 197's need a killer valve job on them, not the typical competition valve job. On two of my pair of 197's, they can't be ported, as they're going on Pure Stock builds. Net valve lift is limited to .421, yes the cam is a custom grind HFT, everything is by the rules. 

Parts availability... On 2 bolt main 455 block cores, I can still pick them up for $300-350 a short block, might have to drive 2-3 hours but they are out there, also no problem for me to find quality machine work. as such, I see no reason to use one of the big name "Boutique" builders. Now if one is nearby, or if i was in a position where was building such a high end race engine, and needed the expertise of the EXTREME Pontiac engine builder, sure would give it a whirl. am still in the process of getting a new building/shop up, been a lot of hoops to jump through. For own Pontiacs, and as backup blocks, cranks, and a little extra inventory, have on roller stands, or in the racks, two 4 bolt 428's, seven 4 bolt 455's, two 2 bolt 455's, five 400's, two '80 turbo engines, and a 4,000 mile 350 engine that just might comein handy. Yep, a little bit of cast iron to move, but shouldn't take more than a day.

For builds using stock pieces, all I ever seem to run out of is nice valley pans and oilpans. Running out of nice "tin" is the main reason I quit wholesaling 400 6X 4 long blocks over a decade ago.. That and a pain in the butt keeping up with good cranks, ones that could go 10-20. So many times a cheap Pontiac 350 gave up the pans and hardware, smarter than scaling them. Recently have bought several nice used valley pans over the Net, won't be be ordering any $150 Chineseum valley pans.


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## oldskool (Apr 26, 2015)

"...I wouldnt need...On my 451...I can still pick them up for $300-350 a short block...have on roller stands, or in the racks, two 4 bolt 428's, seven 4 bolt 455's, two 2 bolt 455's, five 400's..."

Pinion head: You, more than anyone I've run across on any Pontiac forum, know that comparing yourself and your knowledge of, and hands on experience with Pontiac engines, cannot be compared to the average Pontiac guy, who just wants a good strong engine for his car.

On this subject I'll just quote what you posted "...the comparison is apples and oranges..."

VERY VERY few guys can locate a good Pontiac core engine for anywhere near the cheap prices you can. Most of these guys can't do hardly any of their own engine assembly work. So, there is absolutely no way they can build an engine as cheaply as you can. But, you know a lot more about Pontiacs than I do or ever even hope to. So, I'm sure you realize all the things I'm saying, without being told. I just don't want all the guys who read this thread to think they can build a good quality, forged rod, Auto-Tec piston, Pontiac engine, from scratch, for $3000, like you can. It ain't gonna happen, cause MOST of 'em can't buy the core parts for cheap, and don't have the mechanical skills and knowledge you have.

"...On two of my pair of 197's..."

Just out of curiosity, if some of these guys wanted a good set of those #197 round ports you mentioned, do you know where they can pick up a good cheap set ? 

By the way, TJ & I would like to wish all who read this post a very MERRY CHRISTMAS ! Hope ya'll get all the Pontiac parts you want, for Christmas. Hey, if you haven't done it yet, you've still got time to get a message to Santa, electronically, telling him what Pontiac goodies you'd like.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I feel that the Pontiac engine can be built both inexpensively as well as expensively. Many factors come into play. The guy who can assemble and do most of his own engine work will reap the benefits of money saved. The guy who hasn't the skills will have to be willing to pay for a shop or someone else to do the assembly.

The owners goal of how he plans on using his car and the horsepower he desires to attain those goals reflects the amount of money it may cost. Is a Pontiac inexpensive to build? Not if you compare to a small block Chevy, but it is if you compare it to a 426 Hemi.

Can you rebuild a Pontiac engine for $3,000 or less. I say yes if you already have a running engine and don't need to source one. If you don't plan on spinning the engine past 5,500RPM's, then cast pistons will work and re-conditioning the factory cast rods using ARP bolts will work, both of which will save money. One can buy a Master Engine Kit for such a build for under $600. You should not have to balance it, so that saves money. Add to this-

Block -Hot tank and magnaflux ,remove & install freeze/oil galley plugs : $129 
Bore & hone block V8: $230 
Install cam bearings: $75 
Resize big end of rods (8): $160
R&R pressed rod bolts - set: $27
ARP rod bolts: $70
Press pistons on rods(8): $80
Crank -Check, radius oil holes & polish: $77 

So, IF you don't need to turn the crank or deck the block and IF you can assemble the engine yourself, you can rebuild a short block using replacement cast pistons and all your Pontiac parts for near $1,500.

On the heads, I would magnaflux. Depending on age/mileage, the valves can be re-ground along with a valve job and don't need to be upgraded for a 5,500 RPM engine unless the valve are bad. I would resurface the head, replace the springs, get new keepers and keep everything else. I will assume the valve guides will be worn.
Magnaflux: $35.00 
Resurface (pair up to .010): $75.00
Perf. valve job: $175.00
Replace Valve Guides (16): $144
Springs(16): $125

Again, using the existing valves & parts and IF you can assemble the heads yourself, you are looking at around $560.

This of course may not be exact and I may be leaving out a thing or two, but it appears possible to build a basic stock cast piston & rod Pontiac long block for just a little over $2,000 IF you rebuild the engine yourself and IF there are no major problems encountered that would require additional machine work or replacement parts. As I recall, I rebuilt my former 400CI engine as above with some additional machine work & parts for around $2,500 - because I am cheap and can do my own assembly. :thumbsup:


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

When I rebuilt my engine (20+ years ago) I had it balanced and it made a huge diffrerence in how smooth it rev's. I would recommend it.


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## oldskool (Apr 26, 2015)

"...Can you rebuild a Pontiac engine for $3,000 or less. I say yes, if you already have a running engine and don't need to source one. If you don't plan on spinning the engine past 5,500RPM's, then cast pistons will work and re-conditioning the factory cast rods using ARP bolts will work, both of which will save money. One can buy a Master Engine Kit for such a build for under $600. You should not have to balance it, so that saves money..."


Yeah, I agree with everything you said. BUT, the KEY words in what you said are all "if". 

"...if you already have a running engine and don't need to source one. If you don't plan on spinning the engine past 5,500RPM...IF you don't need to turn the crank or deck the block and IF you can assemble the engine yourself, you can rebuild a short block using replacement cast pistons and all your Pontiac parts for near $1,500..."

Hey, I've built 'em a lot cheaper than that. I cleaned up the top of the cylinders with a ridge reamer, and scratched the walls with a flex hone, then just put rings and bearings in it, and bolted it back together. Nothing at all done to the rods, pistons or crank. Built 2 400's like this in '83 and raced both, all season, in two 13 sec bracket cars. Together, me and a neighbor won 5 races, got 5 RU's and 5 semi-finals, in the 18 races entered. The cheap builds far exceeded my expectations. So, I know that it is possible to throw an engine together really cheap, and sometimes they will run good and last quite a long time. But, I'm not gonna recommend that kind of build, on a Pontiac forum today. (Well, except for non-numbers matching "557" block builds.)

Very very few guys will be able to find a good 455 core engine for less than $600-$800. Pinion head is the only guy I know who can find 'em any cheaper than that. In fact, I've read on many occasions, on several Pontiac forums, that most guys can't find a 455, in their area, at all. And many who do find 'em, they are priced $1000 or more. And most of 'em will need a complete rebuild, including bore, crank grind, pistons, rods(or resize & bolts), cam & lifters, complete valve job, etc, etc. 

Now as for throwing together a cheap, cast piston 455, the last time I checked, you could buy a 455 shortblock from some of the big rebuilders, for around $2000 or less + the core charge(if they have a core). And most, even have a guarantee, of some sort. But, I personally will not recommend one of these. Hey, I'll try to Google up some and post the links, so that anyone who would like, can check out the info. 

In the past, when I've called some of these places, they didn't have any 455 cores. And, some of these prices and info may be out of date. And there are lots of sites that don't have any prices listed. You must either call or Email to request a price. But, here are just a few of those Google turned up.

Pontiac Performance Street Engines

Pontiac Remanufactured Engines

Pontiac Remanufactured Engines

https://www.sandjengines.com/rebuilt-auto-engines/search?&year=1974&make=PONTIAC&model=FIREBIRD

1970 - 1971 Pontiac Rebuilt Engine - AGPON-455LB | Auto Parts Guide

Pontiac GTO Engines, Motors, Blocks, Cylinder Heads (Remanufactured, Rebuilt, New, Crate, Used, Salvage)

domestic engines price 1-800-542-3211

Ebay 455 stuff:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-Pontia...ash=item4af5810721:g:8eUAAOSwnipWaxZN&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Pon...ash=item48835627bb:g:m5IAAOSwyQtV3Kvn&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CALIF-1973-...ash=item3d09cb547f:g:SqcAAOSwHQ9WU2Nd&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-PONTIA...ash=item25b339cb53:g:4WEAAOSwv-NWaMqR&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1974-PONTIA...ash=item3ab72cced7:g:Kv4AAOSwEK9TsJFw&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/70-PONTIAC-...ash=item4188b7f0bf:g:EQ0AAOSw1x1UO0aW&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ON-SALE-197...ash=item1a01c120f4:g:QO4AAOSw-vlVg2wt&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-455...ash=item1a0abea719:g:Kt0AAOSwxN5Wbhjx&vxp=mtr


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

oldskool, not disputing you in any way, I am simply answering the question of building a Pontiac engine for $2,500 or less IF you can do the work and don't look to increase the factory RPM range nor expect a substantial increase in HP. It is do-able and for me, it is NOT an excuse by anyone to go out and install a Chevy small block in your Pontiac.

I too have re-built engines by simply honing the small ridge at cylinders top, re-ring the old pistons, and install new bearings, timing chain, etc.. Never checked any crank dimensions. Engine ran fine and had no issues.

Like you, you are not going to buy a 455CI in my area for cheap and like you, minimum $750 and up for a non running, but rotating assembly. If it runs or is in a car, your over $1,000 and more. And they very rarely become available. You can get a 400CI for around $400 and up when you can find one.

HP & Speed costs. I think a good engine, built by another, should fall between $3,000 to $5,000 as long as you don't go exotic with parts & machine work. I think HP numbers are over rated and I think we can agree that sometimes to get another 25-50 HP may mean $1,000 more added to your budget. Great for a competitive racer, but I don't think 25-50HP would make a big difference on a street car - IF you can get all the HP to the pavement without smoking tires.

I like cubic inches and torque and if I were to go Chevy, I would go BB 496CI. Now my guess would be that if we were to compare prices in building a BB496CI versus a Pontiac 487CI, the BB might be a better value. So for me, I am more impressed and accepting of some HP Big Block where a Pontiac engine used to set. If I had ALKYGTO's car, you wouldn't find me pulling a supercharged BB engine to put a Pontiac in it, nor would it bother me to have it in there. But a small block, well.............its just cheap. When I see a small block Chevy under the hood of a GTO, I think "You can't polish a turd" and that's what the owner thinks he is doing when he adds all the chrome goodies to make it more appealing. Just sayin'.


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Buildable 455's are out there. The internet only shows a small glimmer of the entire picture. In many areas, it doesn't take the most seasoned yard hunter to find 455 cores at a reasonable cost.That combined with the whole, you "gotta have a 400 and a stroker crank rotating assembly" have brought prices down on generic 455 cores, the junker/flipper often just want to deal. All through the Fall, and right now, before Christmas, end of the year, first of the year, it's typical for a lot of heavy core type parts to shake loose. All it takes is a mediocre economy and folks that need money for Christmas, have seen it for decades. And buying in such an economy, you don't have to be a jerk and beat folks down, they typically offer at a good price, and can make the deal.

Last, on most performance Pontiac builds, the days of resizing and rebuilding cast rods has been replaced with buying affordable much stronger and often lighter connecting rods from the aftermarket. That upgrade, often will run one $150-250 more than rebuilding ones cast rods. Building a 400 or 455 with the forged Sealed Power pistons, once you factor in another $125-175 to upgrade to lighter pins and machine the pin bosses for floating pins and retainers, you are in a set of quality lighter gram weight custom pistons like the AutoTecs. So add $400, and with careful buying practices, still in the $3000 build range.


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

One thing many of us are seeing in the Southern Plains, Texas, Lousianna, and I'd bet is lapping over into nearby states is the beginning of a lot of selling off. High rollers in the oil services business who were riding high, not managing thir income well, and blowing $$$$$ on big houses, fancy garages, and expensive driver muscle cars, well many of them have lost their jobs, or are seriously cutting back. Cars will be coming up for sale, and this will effect the national market on built cars.

In the last two weeks I've been approached on many deals. 8 month old BendPac lift for 30 cents on the dollar, high quality air compressors, trailers. Today, a good friend bought at an auction a pair of never assembled preengineeered 20x30 steel buildings for $1500. The previous owner had gave 6K a piece for them. The thing to take from this, is you have got to keep your ear to the ground if you want to find deals. It's the same deal on finding specially core parts like blocks, if all one does is read a few ads, read the pie in sky prices of a few Internet board sellers, one can miss the trends. Another huge trend, guns an ammo are flying off the shelves.


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