# possibly wiped out new cam



## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Well the worst has possibly happened. After a very long time, I attempted to start the engine I built last night. I primed the oil pump with turning the engine over to 4 different spots, filled the carb bowls and fuel lines with gas, lined up the distributer, and it would not fire. I checked power to the distributer and it's good. Starter engages and spins the engine but no go. I spent quite a bit of time on the phone with Darrin from Nitemare last night and he gave a bunch of good tips. After thinking on it overnight, the one thing I didn't recheck was that I was on the compression stroke still after priming the pump (I'll check on this over the weekend). I'm thinking I may have the wires off by 180 degrees. I actually hope this is the case since at least I'll know why it wouldn't start. 

My concern now is that I cranked the engine over way more than I would have liked without it firing up. The total crank time by starter was probably around 1 minute or so, way less than 2 but I'm afraid I could have damaged the cam and lifters. I'm thinking that I should pull the intake and valley cover to see what I have in there. If there is damage, will it be obvious like clear score marks on the lobes? I was really trying to beat the New England weather and get this on the road, but now, I'd rather slow down and make sure I don't make a bad situation worse by running it damaged.

As you can imagine, this was extremely disappointing. I have been working on this almost every night after work for the past few weeks and the planning for this build happened well over a year ago. I am going to take a couple days off of it but will check the timing position on Sunday. It's supposed to rain then anyway.


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## goat671 (Apr 13, 2019)

I am no expert but I do not think turning the engine over with the starter for this amount of time would "wipe out" you cam. You did use a breakin lube right?


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

Jared said:


> Well the worst has possibly happened. After a very long time, I attempted to start the engine I built last night. I primed the oil pump with turning the engine over to 4 different spots, filled the carb bowls and fuel lines with gas, lined up the distributer, and it would not fire. I checked power to the distributer and it's good. Starter engages and spins the engine but no go. I spent quite a bit of time on the phone with Darrin from Nitemare last night and he gave a bunch of good tips. After thinking on it overnight, the one thing I didn't recheck was that I was on the compression stroke still after priming the pump (I'll check on this over the weekend). I'm thinking I may have the wires off by 180 degrees. I actually hope this is the case since at least I'll know why it wouldn't start.
> 
> My concern now is that I cranked the engine over way more than I would have liked without it firing up. The total crank time by starter was probably around 1 minute or so, way less than 2 but I'm afraid I could have damaged the cam and lifters. I'm thinking that I should pull the intake and valley cover to see what I have in there. If there is damage, will it be obvious like clear score marks on the lobes? I was really trying to beat the New England weather and get this on the road, but now, I'd rather slow down and make sure I don't make a bad situation worse by running it damaged.
> 
> As you can imagine, this was extremely disappointing. I have been working on this almost every night after work for the past few weeks and the planning for this build happened well over a year ago. I am going to take a couple days off of it but will check the timing position on Sunday. It's supposed to rain then anyway.


I think you are fine. I doubt you have damaged anything with what you describe. I literally had nightmares about the same thing as I approached my start up day. If you primed and have good assembly lube on the lobes, you are probably OK. I would certainly prime the oil pump again before another startup session. If it would make you feel better, you could open up the valley pan and coat the lobes again but probably not neccessary. Are you using a good break in oil with Zinc? If your cam instructions specify it, did you remove inner springs? All these things should make sure break in goes smoothly. I think your anxiety is getting the best of you but like I said above, I certainly understand because I've been there myself not too long ago.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

If you prelubed the cam with any remotely reputable grease or oil, then you could probably turn it over for 6 hours without any adverse effects. In fact, it would probably be a decent break in aid. OTOH, if the engine fired up and was running at 1000 RPMS without lube, then thats another story.

I recently discovered an odd distributor anomaly, and it cleared up a serious mystery for me


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

When I bought my car, the dizzy was sloppy and the car was a mess, so I swapped in an HEI, as I have done for more than 30 years, and the car wouldnt start. Of course, all of my friends and the entire internet claimed that I had installed the dizzy out 180... I was well aware of this sondition and I knew that I had not, nevertheless, I appeased Earth by rotating the dizzy 180, and it still didn't start.

Two weeks later, after countless research on the web and dozens of lifeline calls to my buddies, I finally got it started... Was never really sure what happened.

Turn the clock ahead one year: Last month I pulled the dizzy to install the vacuum advance limiter and tweak my curve. Having my last dizzy nightmare fresh in my memory, I marked the Hell out of the dizzy, the rotor, and the cap, so that there'd be no mistakes. I pulled it, made my mods, and one hour later I went to reinstall it, and it wouldnt go in where it was supposed to. I was very confused, so I assumed that I had marked it wrong. 

I reinstalled it and NO START! So I took a screw driver and turned the oil pump so that the distributor would fit in as I marked it, and it started right up! 

What had happened is that somehow my oil pump rotated by itself when the dizzy was removed. I assume that the pump can hold pressure, and once the dizzy is pulled, it can release itself and rotate? Regardless, it has now done it twice!

Set your engine at TDC on the compression stroke. Install the dizzy without a cap and note where the rotor is pointing. Make that your number one plug and then install the rest in the proper order, counter clockwise.

IF the number one doesnt fall where you want it to, then turn the oil pump by hand until number one falls where you prefer. You can put it anywhere!


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Thanks for the input guys. This makes me feel better about this. There seems to be a bit of debate about what install lube to use on a new cam. After consulting with the manufacturer, I used the lube that came with the cam when I built the engine. While it was a liquid, it was super thick and seamed to stay in place when applied. Since the engine sat for a while after I did the valve train, I bought more and had applied right before installing the valley pan, say 2 weeks ago. Same goes for the break in oil. I'm using a Comp cam s I went with their oil. I figure that's what they would be using in house for any development they do (one would think anyway). The inner valve springs are off.

I ran into the same trouble reinstalling the distributer after I primed the pump. The pump rod has to be just so or it does not drop in. This was all easier when the engine was on the stand.

I'm going to check if I have the wires in the wrong place before I do anything else. The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning in that direction.


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## goat671 (Apr 13, 2019)

So you need to break it in without the inner springs? So this means you need to pull the heads after break in? Wow that is a PITA Or is there a way to put the inners in without pulling the heads?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Don't freak out just yet. Just take your time. Make sure #1 (front, driver side) is at tdc compression and not tdc exhaust. Remember that Pontiac distributor rotors turn counter clockwise - wherever the rotor is pointing is #1. Firing order: 18436572 (unless you're running a 4-7 swap cam). Driver side, front to back 1-3-5-7, passenger side 2-4-6-8. 

Bear


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Thanks to everyone on this. The more I think about it, the more I think I am on the exhaust stroke. I have a busy couple day with other things so I am going to shelf the car until Sunday. That's the first thing I'm going to check before I do anything else. I double checked that I had the wires correct several times so I know they are in the correct order but maybe in the wrong spots.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

goat671 said:


> So you need to break it in without the inner springs? So this means you need to pull the heads after break in? Wow that is a PITA Or is there a way to put the inners in without pulling the heads?


You can do it with the heads on the car using compressed air and a spring tool that screws onto the rocker stud. It's still a PIA.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

BearGFR said:


> Don't freak out just yet. Just take your time. Make sure #1 (front, driver side) is at tdc compression and not tdc exhaust. Remember that Pontiac distributor rotors turn counter clockwise - wherever the rotor is pointing is #1. Firing order: 18436572 (unless you're running a 4-7 swap cam). Driver side, front to back 1-3-5-7, passenger side 2-4-6-8.
> 
> Bear


Thanks Bear. Your thoughts on either pulling the intake or just check and the fix timing issue and re-prime oil pump?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Jared said:


> Thanks Bear. Your thoughts on either pulling the intake or just check and the fix timing issue and re-prime oil pump?


Simple - Pull the No. 1 spark plug. (Pull the power wire + from the coil so no accidental firing up). Pull a valve cover on the drivers side, watch to see that both valves/rocker arms on No. 1 are in the closed position, and then bring the timing mark on the balancer to spec - 9 degrees-ish BTDC. You should be able to shine a light into the spark plug hole and see the top of the piston. If not, gently insert a screwdriver and you should be able to feel the top of the piston.

Some will simply pull the No 1 spark plug and put a thumb over the hole and as the timing mark on the balancer comes around, the compression will blow your thumb from off the hole and then at that point get the balancer mark lined up. Compression has to build before the cylinder can fire - so that means both valves are closed/rocker arms should have no tension on the pushrods and you should be able to spin them with your fingers.

Watch your rockers - Intake opens/piston goes down. Piston comes up and Intake closes. With both valve closed, Compression/firing take place at TDC. At TDC, piston goes down as this is the power stroke. At BDC, with the piston coming up, the exhaust valve will open pushing spent gases out. Just as it nears TDC again, the exhaust valve will be almost closed and the Intake valve will begin to just open (called Overlap) and take in a fresh air/fuel charge to start the process all over again.

So at the point where the Intake/Exhaust are completely closed, that is TDC, and when you want the distributor to fire. Where the Exhaust is almost closed/Intake just barely opening, that is the Overlap period, BUT also at TDC. You don't want the distributor to fire on this TDC point.

Be ready with the timing gun. I often find that when you do line up the balancer mark, the engine may still be off.

Run the engine 2,000- 2,200 RPM's as the purpose of that is to keep splash oil whipping around onto the cam lobes. Run it about 20 minutes if no issues/leaks. Let it cool, repeat after the engine has cooled back down to its room temp. My machinist says he likes to do 3 heat cycles of 20 minutes each - allowing the engine to cool back down. 

You really should have the valve covers off to watch the pushrods rotate - I use stamped rocker arms and the rocker arm clips sold by Summit so the oil doesn't fly all over the place nor catch fire. Some cut an elongated hole in junk valve covers to do the same thing, but I think this wouldmcover up the pushrod, but works for rocker arm/valve adjustments. Put a dab of white paint near the top/side of the pushrod so you can see it. As the pushrod spins, it will be much easier to see the dab of paint. Sometimes it is hard to see them spinning without it. If you see a pushrod not spinning, it could be too tight and harm the lifter/lobe. You can first try to give it a spin to get it going with your fingers - sometimes that is all it needs. If not, then you will want to back off the rocker arm nut just enough to get that pushrod spinning. If the pushrod is not spinning, then the lifter is not spinning on the cam's lobe and that's where you could do some lobe/lifter damage during break-in. So just be mindful of that.

Hope that makes sense.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

I did the three 20 min runs as Jim described, because I thought it was heating up. Also broke it in with both springs, but the choice is yours. Maybe others will chime in on whether they used one spring or not on breakin. Enquiring minds want to know.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

I had nightmares, really, so I removed inner springs. I also got so worried that I did break in without the valve covers on so I could make sure the pushrods were turning. Guess what happened. oil sprayed everywhere and started a small fired on my exhaust manifold. I learned later about some clips that help avoid the oil splash. But anyhow, it ultimately turned out fine. Follow the good advice on this thread and you should have a good break in process. If I had to do it again, I would still remove inner springs for break in but keep valve covers on or use the clips.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

This all helps a bunch. I'm using roller rockers so the clips may not work for me. I'll try the cut an old set of valve cover trick ands see if it works. I have the ones that were on the car before and have no plan to use them again anyway. I was trying to do this after work which was a mistake in the first place. Next attempt will be on the weekend when both my adult sons are home to help with this. May be next week at this point. Today is busy and the rest of the weekend looks to be a wash here.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Hopefully this is the last question. Darrin recommended adding a line onto the damper 2.1 inches clockwise from the zero mark to use to time with when performing the break in so that it can be done at 2000 RPM. This is to correct for the RPM and the mechanical advance. I'm throwing this out there to make sure I understood correctly.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Jared said:


> Hopefully this is the last question. Darrin recommended adding a line onto the damper 2.1 inches clockwise from the zero mark to use to time with when performing the break in so that it can be done at 2000 RPM. This is to correct for the RPM and the mechanical advance. I'm throwing this out there to make sure I understood correctly.



How dare you question Darrin. I would think that that may be correct since he is correcting for the advance. Never did it, just set the engine timing at rest and fired it up. Probably a lot more accurate his way.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

PontiacJim said:


> How dare you question Darrin. I would think that that may be correct since he is correcting for the advance. Never did it, just set the engine timing at rest and fired it up. Probably a lot more accurate his way.


Was not questioning Darrin. He has been extremely helpful when I've reached out to him. I was checking that my novice mind grasped what he was saying. Using everything I've gathered. I plan on setting the timing before I crank it as you described and add the mark to the balancer and check it once started using Darrin's technique. 

I'll be checking the way I have the wires later today. I'll be surprised if it is anything other than a last minute sloppy mistake on my part. One good thing to come of this is I knew in advance that the wiring under the dash was a mess. I was originally going to deal with this when the engine was out but held off. I didn't want to throw new wiring into the mix if I had an issue getting the car to start up. I figured I'd do the wiring after the car was stored for the winter since there is so little under the hood that the engine being in there won't really affect the ease of the job. This ends up being slightly ironic. Even though I didn't touch anything under there, when I was hooking everything up I tested power to the distributer and it was dead. Whoever installed the HEI that was on the old engine used a wire that was spliced into at least 2 other times. They were using it to power an aftermarket radio and one of the connections came loose. Before I try to start it again, I'm going to replace that with the correct gauge before I try and start it again.

I'm still optimistic that I can get this started up, broken in, and maybe be able to put a few miles on it before winter. If it's like last year, that won't happen. We had our first snow here before Halloween last year.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

I'm not sure if you call this a win or not. I had the wires installed 180 deg off. It's probably a good thing this happened the way it did. I have a better handle on how to go about this a better way than I was before. Hopefully I can get this ready to go today while everyone is home. I may need all the help I can get. 

This delay also uncovered a couple other issues I had going on under there (wiring is pretty rough). I already fixed the distributer feed wire but really need to replace all of it before too much longer.

Thanks again guys for all the help with this. I've learned a lot doing this project. I'll admit, this one may be scratching the end of my talents.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Jared said:


> This all helps a bunch. I'm using roller rockers so the clips may not work for me. I'll try the cut an old set of valve cover trick ands see if it works. I have the ones that were on the car before and have no plan to use them again anyway. I was trying to do this after work which was a mistake in the first place. Next attempt will be on the weekend when both my adult sons are home to help with this. May be next week at this point. Today is busy and the rest of the weekend looks


 Definetly take your time
, double check oil etc. By the way you are using break in oil? If you want to be absolutley sure where your tdc is...use a piston stop. There are youtube videosto help. Not really neccesary to start it but when you do your total timing it will be more accurate. Then check to make sure you got spark at the end of your spark plug wire and have fuel in the carb. Spark, fuel & timing = 🚀


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

RMTZ67 said:


> Definetly take your time
> , double check oil etc. By the way you are using break in oil? If you want to be absolutley sure where your tdc is...use a piston stop. There are youtube videosto help. Not really neccesary to start it but when you do your total timing it will be more accurate. Then check to make sure you got spark at the end of your spark plug wire and have fuel in the carb. Spark, fuel & timing = 🚀


Funny thing. I checked the weather forecast yesterday and it looked OK for today. I had my oldest in the garage helping prep the engine to try firing it up again. We were just ready to push the car outside and it started to rain. Checked my phone and it looks like it's supposed to rain for the next 4 hours or so. Washed out again. Tomorrow looks clear so prime the oil pump again and try then.

I had the valve covers off and had my son hold a finger over the #1 plug hole. Both say that I am now at TDC.


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## MidnightAuto (May 28, 2018)

I just did a break in a couple weeks ago and it is nerve wracking. But all came together for me. Slow and steady always win the race. Patience pays off! Look forward to hearing about your start up. Film it!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Jared:"Was not questioning Darrin."

PJ: I was being sarcastic - like Yankees are known for.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

PontiacJim said:


> Jared:"Was not questioning Darrin."
> 
> PJ: I was being sarcastic - like Yankees are known for.


We are also known for taking things way to seriously. Some would call it a character flaw. I just call it character. You can move away from New England but you take it with you. 

Weather is clear for today so as soon as my sons are up and about, it's go time. My wife is the only one who has work today. She is home office based so this is going to be a loud day for her.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Just did the first run cycle. Made a mess with the cut valve covers. Had to shut it off after the first two minutes to avoid a fire. Ran long enough to verify that all the pushrods were spinning. Installed the good valve covers and gave it the spurs. Everything sounds good. I was a bit out of time to begin with so it heated up quick. Once I found the full advance mark I made, it smoothed out and went well. Going to let it cool down for a couple hours and do the next cycle. I'm working inside of my wife's meetings window.

Only issue I have is the vacuum advance on the distributer is interfering with the heating hose when the engine is timed correctly. I'll have to put the advance in a different position for the final tune.

Thanks to everyone for all the help on this.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Good deal. Pushrods all spinning is a good sign. Sounds like you are all set. Retarded timing will cause the engine to run hot, did that myself and then adjusted the timing and it was good.

After your final heat cycle of the engine and let it fully cool down again, go back and re-torque the heads, intake, carb. The heads will most likely be good, but I find the intake/carb will take a little tightening. Just saves having a vacuum leak you have to hunt for or a blown out gasket.


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## MidnightAuto (May 28, 2018)

congrats and good news!


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

Glad to hear it. 2X check the intake bolts.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Just saw this. I didn't get a chance to check in again yesterday because it was pretty late by the time I was finished and I was tired. I also owed the wife dinner out since I set off the CO monitor during a work meeting. Long story on that one but I'll tell a short version of it. I have an under house garage. The car was outside and the door was closed but I guess the back of the car was too close to the door and I neglected to close the AC vent that's cut into the door so the garage filled with fumes. Fast forward 45 minutes after the first run cycle and the fumes had seeped into the basement and triggered the alarm. Because it is hard wired in, it went off all over the house. 

Anyway, I ran it through all of the cycles but didn't check fasteners in between. I'm going to pull the intake anyway so that will get reinstalled with new gaskets. I wasn't crazy about how I blocked off the blind exhaust crossovers. The Felpro gasket set has reinforced plates that can be set to either block off just the top holes or both center holes. Still not sure which way I want to run it. They were completely blocked on the old engine. I'll retorque after the first couple drives. While I'm in there, I may pull the valley pan for when I reset the rockers. I found it pretty easy to do when I could see most of the camshaft. It's a little more work, but it was how I did it the first go around with no issue.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Maybe go to Home Depot/Lowes and buy a stick of aluminum angle over at the metal aisle. Cut it to length to fit underneath the cut-outs in your valve cover. Just rivet them in place. Aim the angle down and it may block the oil shooting from the rocker arms and direct the oil back to the head. Then you can adjust the lifters/valves while running using the "zero lash" method once you install your valve springs, and you won't have to pull the valley pan.

If you check your heads, that small pocket/opening is not part of the exhaust crossover. It is a blind/sealed pocket. The one below it is the exhaust crossover. However, it becomes a problem using the 1971 and earlier heads as the exhaust crossover port is larger, and does not seal correctly with the earlier gasket. If you want to retain the exhaust crossover port ( or maybe just use one side for a little heat) you can fill the pocket in with furnace cement, but you also need a flat/flush surface for the earlier gasket to seal. The below article outlines what to do. I would not dig out the cement if it did not work out to be flat as the article says. I would find some gind of sealant to use instead.

Once you do this, then you could use the "block-off" plate if you wanted to block off the exhaust heat crossover.

Read this:

https://www.gtoforum.com/attachments/pontiac-intake-modifiaction-pdf.103985/


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Ah. Interesting. The gaskets I have on the car now, and the second set I have the shelf, both have smaller center holes than what is shown in the article so I doubt I'll have a leak whichever way I go with it. The gasket material hits the head material that is between the top hole and the exhaust hole which is under the intake manifold I am running.

I marked the distributer very close to the correct setting as it was installed in the car and turned it so the vacuum advance is behind the heater hose. If my measurements are correct, it's now going to be pretty close to the firewall depending on how far clockwise it needs to go. I may pull it off again and see if going the other direction looks better. The car had an HEI on it before but the new one doesn't seem to want to line up.

Correction. I moved it over one tooth and it looks like it may be OK. I was focusing on the terminal rather than where the rotor would be when the engine was running. If my measurements are good, I now have room to advance the timing but very little to retard it with the vacuum advance between the intake and the heater hose. I won't find out until I get the valve springs installed and change the oil. Also, I have quite a mess to clean up. I'm pretty sure it's all from running with the cut covers. There's no way I have an oil leak as bad as what I'm seeing under there (and it's all in the wrong place to boot). Fingers crossed.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Jared said:


> Just did the first run cycle. Made a mess with the cut valve covers. Had to shut it off after the first two minutes to avoid a fire. Ran long enough to verify that all the pushrods were spinning. Installed the good valve covers and gave it the spurs. Everything sounds good. I was a bit out of time to begin with so it heated up quick. Once I found the full advance mark I made, it smoothed out and went well. Going to let it cool down for a couple hours and do the next cycle. I'm working inside of my wife's meetings window.
> 
> Only issue I have is the vacuum advance on the distributer is interfering with the heating hose when the engine is timed correctly. I'll have to put the advance in a different position for the final tune.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for all the help on this.


I'm not sure why but I put a vacuum advance on my MSD R2R and it faces the opposite way towards the brake booster, can you get it to do that for more clearance?


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## Machinest-guy (Jul 19, 2019)

Just noticed your interest in camshaft break in. The heart of the matter is valve spring pressure and camshaft material vs. lubrication. Quite a few flat tappet cams are cast iron made in various alloys. While tappets are a different alloy sometimes called "chilled" because it is manufactured with a very hard heat treatment created by a cooling process. Very few flat tappet cams are made from "steel" or anything else - but they are out there if you work on old or odd or race engines so any generic recommendation is at risk of being contradicted. That is why following each camshaft makers recommendations is important. They know their alloy and metal type best. That said; Crane and Comp and quite a few others limit break in pressure measured at the rocker arm short side to 280 lbs over the nose with "correct lubrication" and "correct procedures".

Correct lubrication depends on how long the engine will sit in storage before use and if it will be pre-lubricated again before start up. If it will sit a long time something more greasy is better. If only a few hours are between build up and start up then an oil or fluid is fine. But in either case it needs to be present when the engine rotates between the cam face and tappet - not squished out the side or wiped off from excessive cranking. Spring pressure wipes off the pre-lube if it isn't dripping so the engines lubrication system needs to engage that function rapidly once the engine starts. With high spring pressures it needs to engage within seconds or wear will start to occur. Wear can be thought of as accelerated break in which will eventually shorten the service life of the engine. Excessive break in wear can shorten the life of an engine to a few minutes. It is my opinion many engines experience rapid wear in a less than optimum start up, then a decreased rate of wear when the OEM lubrication system takes over. Overall that is a successful start up, but it isn't as long lasting as it could have been.

Correct procedure encompasses engine running speed and heat management. Most iron cams are "Parkerized" a chemical dip at controlled temperature and time which creates a hard surface on top of the cams ground surface. It activates at operating temperature and rapidly goes away which is a sacrificial aspect of the processes protecting a cam from initial damage. By the time it is gone the tappets will have worn into the cam and should be mated enough not to need further extra protection past what the regular engine oil and supplements can provide. Over the nose load is controlled by engine speed. The faster a cam is spun the lower over the nose pressure is, because the tappet is moving away from the cam as it crests the nose. If the tappets need a lot of metal "removed" to mate to a cam lobe, and the lubrication is marginal, temperature limits for all parts of the break in process will be exceeded resulting in failure. Turning a cam slowly increases over the nose load and oil wipe off. Speeding it up moves the max load point toward the opening flank and ramps where is is better distributed into the camshaft lobe profile. Higher engine speed generally means increased oil circulation, hence better internal camshaft cooling occurs. 

Anyway, I agree with many posts here that on a stock engine with modest cranking and some pre-lube and other oil supplements present in the crankcase oil, I doubt troubles will beset you.
The engineering limits built into these OEM Pontiac motors are very safe for most people to work within. 

Best regards, Ladd


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Jared said:


> Ah. Interesting. The gaskets I have on the car now, and the second set I have the shelf, both have smaller center holes than what is shown in the article so I doubt I'll have a leak whichever way I go with it. The gasket material hits the head material that is between the top hole and the exhaust hole which is under the intake manifold I am running.
> 
> I marked the distributer very close to the correct setting as it was installed in the car and turned it so the vacuum advance is behind the heater hose. If my measurements are correct, it's now going to be pretty close to the firewall depending on how far clockwise it needs to go. I may pull it off again and see if going the other direction looks better. The car had an HEI on it before but the new one doesn't seem to want to line up.
> 
> Correction. I moved it over one tooth and it looks like it may be OK. I was focusing on the terminal rather than where the rotor would be when the engine was running. If my measurements are good, I now have room to advance the timing but very little to retard it with the vacuum advance between the intake and the heater hose. I won't find out until I get the valve springs installed and change the oil. Also, I have quite a mess to clean up. I'm pretty sure it's all from running with the cut covers. There's no way I have an oil leak as bad as what I'm seeing under there (and it's all in the wrong place to boot). Fingers crossed.


? Vacuum advance can on the distributor is located on the driver's side of the engine. Sounds like you have it positioned on the passenger side where the water heater hose is found.


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## Dave 68 (Nov 18, 2018)

One more thing to check, I wasted an hour trying to figure out why mine wouldn't start after rebuilding. It was the new HEI distributor wires weren't plugged into the bottom side of the distributor. I unplugged it to remove the cap so I could rotate the rotor and forgot to plug it back in......duh.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

PontiacJim said:


> ? Vacuum advance can on the distributor is located on the driver's side of the engine. Sounds like you have it positioned on the passenger side where the water heater hose is found.


That would explain it. I was going with how it was installed on the old engine. My guess is they did it the way they did because the lead wire to the distributer only reached there. I ran a new one anyway so that's not an issue for me. I'll correct that after I get everything else done for final tune. Whoever owned this car before me was a bit creative to be polite about it.

I spent some time last night cleaning up under the car. I had a moment of panic because the bell housing access cover was saturated with oil and dripping. I pulled it off and the clutch, fly wheel, etc are all bone dry. Looks like oil leaked down the side and collected there. While I was under there I checked the rear of the oil pan, the front cover, and both main seals. Basically, anything that I touched that could leak oil (which was basically everything except the rear main). All dry. The only real leak I found was the drain plug on the pan is seeping. I need to change the oil anyway so I'll pick up a new one beforehand.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Machinest-guy said:


> Just noticed your interest in camshaft break in. The heart of the matter is valve spring pressure and camshaft material vs. lubrication. ...


This is all good stuff. I spent quite a few years working R&D for a lubricant base stock supplier and got to tour quite a few of our customer (or potential customer) locations. During that time, one of my job functions was to learn as much as possible about the industry including basic formulations etc. Your explanation here is really good. 

In hindsight, my original post was a bit of an over reaction. I was pretty upset when it didn't start the first time and was sure I had wrecked something. I always seem to expect the worst, that's just how my brain is wired. This case was an extreme example because of how much time and money I have into this project. I also had a seasonal, but unknown, deadline looming. I live is SE Massachusetts and it can snow here in October (this happened last year) or be 70 and sunny in January. There is no knowing when the winter weather will hit and when it will end. When I was in college, we had a huge blizzard on April fools day. It dropped 2 1/2 feet of snow and lasted for three days.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Jim Hand's solution for mismatched intakes/heads.

"There is a problem that occurs when using 1967 to 1971 manifolds with 1972 and later heads. The exhaust crossover opening on the right side of the manifold is much taller than the crossover opening in the head. Unlike the earlier head, the 1972 and later heads have an additional opening immediately above the small crossover port and this prevents either the early gasket with a large opening or the later gasket with the smaller opening from sealing the crossover. The solution is to use the small opening gasket (72 and later) with a thin stainless steel shim to cover the total area presented by the intake manifold opening. (Only stainless will work; other materials will burn through.) Use copious amounts of high temperature silicone seal on both sides of the gasket and shim. Incidentally, the opening is there only to save weight and does not need to be sealed."


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Thanks PJ. That was how the old engine was built. I replaced the gaskets that were on the car for cam break in with ones from Felpro that came with reinforced plates with gasket material for the center. Basically, the same idea. I decided to keep the exhaust crossover so I used the plates with the small holes. I'm running a Torquer II intake which has the smaller exhaust holes so this seemed to work fine.



https://butlerperformance.com/i-24453250-fel-pro-pontiac-standard-intake-gasket-includes-heat-x-over-block-off-set-fpr-1233.html?ref=category:1234822



I spent most of the day installing the inner valve springs and putting the engine back together. I pulled the intake and the valley pan for this to make adjusting them easier. It's a good thing I did, it looked like I had a pretty good oil leak coming out of the rear of the valley pan. I have about 1 hour of work for tomorrow, including an oil change, and it should be road ready. Today was my wedding anniversary and I had plans with the wife in the late afternoon. She gave me most of the day for the car and I just ran out of time. She told me to finish and we could switch the plans to tomorrow but I just couldn't do that to her. She's a keeper for sure.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Alrighty. I figure I owe you guys an update on how it went. I finished buttoning up the car this morning by about noon. Had a tough time getting it to fire up and stay running. I remembered that the carb that I put on there for break in was set with a fairly low idle so I gave it a little more using the adjustment screw. Fired right up and idled. The timing may need to be tweaked but it is really close to right. At startup it has around 70 pounds oil pressure dropped to just shy of 60 once heated up. The temperature sticks right at 175 so no issues there. I brought it for a quick ride, and filled it with gas. Engine seems to run great. I have a lot of wiring to fix on the car but that looks to be a winter project. One score is my mystery shifter rattle is gone. Funny that the engine wasn't actually making any noise but the indicator that the crank was eating itself was an annoying rattle in the shifter.

I'm sure I'll come back to you guys with more questions, but for now I consider this project to be done. I thank everyone for their help and support through this. I think I aged 10 years in the past week and a half.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

When you went for a ride, did you break in the rings? A few accelerations and decelerations are needed so the rings get both compression pressures and vacuum suction on deceleration.

Don't drive the car like a little old lady for the first 500 miles and never get over 50MPH. You don't want to glaze the cylinder walls and not have the rings seat or you will be using oil thinking the engine has an issue when it may have been the break-in period.

Just pointing this out. Sounds like fun.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

PontiacJim said:


> When you went for a ride, did you break in the rings? A few accelerations and decelerations are needed so the rings get both compression pressures and vacuum suction on deceleration.
> 
> Don't drive the car like a little old lady for the first 500 miles and never get over 50MPH. You don't want to glaze the cylinder walls and not have the rings seat or you will be using oil thinking the engine has an issue when it may have been the break-in period.
> 
> Just pointing this out. Sounds like fun.


Yep. That was done.


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## Jetzster (Jan 18, 2020)

Mission accomplished! time to celebrate Jared


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Jared said:


> Alrighty. I figure I owe you guys an update on how it went. I finished buttoning up the car this morning by about noon. Had a tough time getting it to fire up and stay running. I remembered that the carb that I put on there for break in was set with a fairly low idle so I gave it a little more using the adjustment screw. Fired right up and idled. The timing may need to be tweaked but it is really close to right. At startup it has around 70 pounds oil pressure dropped to just shy of 60 once heated up. The temperature sticks right at 175 so no issues there. I brought it for a quick ride, and filled it with gas. Engine seems to run great. I have a lot of wiring to fix on the car but that looks to be a winter project. One score is my mystery shifter rattle is gone. Funny that the engine wasn't actually making any noise but the indicator that the crank was eating itself was an annoying rattle in the shifter.
> 
> I'm sure I'll come back to you guys with more questions, but for now I consider this project to be done. I thank everyone for their help and support through this. I think I aged 10 years in the past week and a half.


Breakin's tend to do that. But when its all past and your out on the street, you'll feel younger than ever lol.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> When you went for a ride, did you break in the rings? A few accelerations and decelerations are needed so the rings get both compression pressures and vacuum suction on deceleration.
> 
> Don't drive the car like a little old lady for the first 500 miles and never get over 50MPH. You don't want to glaze the cylinder walls and not have the rings seat or you will be using oil thinking the engine has an issue when it may have been the break-in period.
> 
> Just pointing this out. Sounds like fun.


I think this is my issue. My uncle had this crazy good motor built for the car, nd then he drove it like Mrs Daisy, once every few weeks, for six years... putting a total of less than 2000 miles on it. Then I gt it and not knowing this, I put full synthetic in it. So now I use oil like no tomorrow.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

In no way did I abuse it right out of the gate but I gave it some pretty good pulls in second and let the engine wind down in that gear. I tried it in first and it broke the tires loose as soon as the RPMs came up and again when I let off the gas. I'll say the car is way faster with the 461 than it was with the tired 400 that came out of it. Traction may be an issue going forward. Funny that my dad's recommendation for break in was exactly what Jim said not to do. He was telling me to keep in under 1500 RPM. His jaw dropped when I told him what the cam break in procedure was.

I'm now working through some of the wiring gremlins I told you guys about. The PO had the HEI wired in using the original resister wire that went to the points distributer. I wired it direct to the fuse block for the break in and first run. Downside is the source that is live by ignition doesn't put out power when the starter is hit so I had to wire it live and unplug to shut off the car. I know, this was really hack and I hated doing it but desperate times yadayadayada. I ordered a new under hood harness that will have the correct distributer wire installed but it won't ship for a couple months. I guess its made to order so you wait your turn. In the mean time, I used the original distributer feed wire to power a relay and wired the HEI direct using a fused wire. Still not great but at least it will operate by key until I get the new harness in and installed.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

That's why I had to switch to drag radials on my 461, isn't it fun 👍 make sure your harness is for HEI, I ordered mine through NPD and it's made by American Autowire and no where in either description does it say resistor wire or not for HEI, talk about pulling your hair out on a new motor start up the car was shaking so bad the hood fell off the roof ! That's what happens when you're only getting 9 volts to the coil, I put in a nice feedback on both their sites and gave the Autowire guy an earful, he said they have the right one if I wanted a order it...ya now that everything was installed how am I supposed to do that so I just ran a wire from the battery to the coil.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Baaad65 said:


> That's why I had to switch to drag radials on my 461, isn't it fun 👍 make sure your harness is for HEI, I ordered mine through NPD and it's made by American Autowire and no where in either description does it say resistor wire or not for HEI, talk about pulling your hair out on a new motor start up the car was shaking so bad the hood fell off the roof ! That's what happens when you're only getting 9 volts to the coil, I put in a nice feedback on both their sites and gave the Autowire guy an earful, he said they have the right one if I wanted a order it...ya now that everything was installed how am I supposed to do that so I just ran a wire from the battery to the coil.


I'm thinking of running summer tires on mine at least for the time being. I still have the factory 10 bolt rear and a Muncie. I may be pushing the limit of those parts. I figure summer tires will provide more grip without being too sticky.

I ordered the harness through Ames. They have a separate part number for the harness that comes with the HEI lead. Only downside is they are built to order so they take a long time to arrive. The long lead time was one of the reasons I improvised for the time being. The other being that my LeMans is registered as a regular car so it requires a state safety sticker. The one on it was expired when the car blew up 18 months ago. I didn't think it would go over too well if I told the inspector he had to unplug a wire from the fuse block to shut the engine off.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Ah yes now you need a good supporting cast for that beast, I spent a lot on a custom 4 speed an M23Z they call it 2.99 first gear, 500.00 Strange driveshaft, 12 bolt rear w/Strange axles plus suspension like SSM lift bars, triangulation bars and it still gets loose. The wait will be worth the right harness 👍


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