# Headers and Zbars



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Anyone know what combo for sure works in a 66' lemans/gto?

I am in process of installing my tko and it looks as if my headers MAY be in the way of installing the zbar. Not 100% sure yet. Any suggestions on what has worked for you guys? :confused

I am currently running budget D port headers from Summit. 
'66 Lemans, 455 w 400 6x heads


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Oh come on.. I cant be the only one with a '66 stickshift and headers on this site!! :lol:


----------



## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Ben, I have had several 66 GTOs with headers and Z bars...I STRONGLY suggest a Hydraulic throw out bearing. But, back when, I used a stock Z bar and Hooker headers. Problems occur when the engine revs, and you let the clutch pedal up....things tend to bind and the clutch frys. What have you got motor wise?? Eric


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

.060 over 455 with a mild cam and 6x heads. My neighbor has a 454 impala that uses a zbar and its working great. Id love a hydraulic clutch but for $600 its not in the cards right now


----------



## dimitri (Feb 13, 2009)

Go back to your stock manifolds. Start saving for a set of Ram Air Restoration Enterprises manifolds.


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Thats an idea, but with all due respect. NO WAY am I running manifolds. 4 speed gtos have had headers since GTOs were built. Someone has to know what set works well.


----------



## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Doug's ceramic coated headers are supposed to be top of the line. Butler has real good prices on them.:cheers


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Okay, Benjamin, you asked for it! I have had 3 '66 GTO's with headers and 4 speeds, and a couple '65's as well. My current '65, which I have driven for the past 29 years now, has "headers and a 4 speed". All tubing headers will need a BFH and wome fab work to install. At least, all the brands I installed. I've done Hedmann, Blackjack, and Hooker, mainly. I always preferred Hedman "back in the day" because they were a good product for the money. Hookers were a little better, but waaaay harder to install. The problem on the passenger side is oil filter housing clearance. A remote oil filter may have to be installed. Somehow, the stock oil filter on my '65 fits. The problems with the passenger side will be : steering rag joint clearance, starter clearance, brake line clearance, and, of course, Z bar clearance. On my '65, the lower arm of the Z bar is shaved thin, as is the clutch rod joint, and the header tube has been "modified" with a BFH. It's worked all these years. The gaskets do blow out and leak, but hey, that's part of the tubing header experience. On one '66 I had, I welded a tag onto the upper leg of the Z bar, which allowed it to start out at a different pivot point, which let it totally clear the header tube. I shortened the pushrod, and that set up worked really well. I haven't had the "clutch fry bind" that Eric talks about, but without enough clearance bashed into the tubes, it would definately happen. Oh---when you are installing the headers, jack the car WAY up into the air and use GOOD jackstands. It's a real sob to have the motor jacked up, the car jacked up, and be underneath it gravel-backing it when you realize you need another 2 inches of vehicle height to tilt the header into place.....


----------



## dimitri (Feb 13, 2009)

R. A. R. E.


----------



## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

:agree If you don't need headers don't use them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If I could run RA cast manifolds on my blower motor, I would in a NY minute!


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Well I have removed my driver fender and inner fender to access the frame and get a straight shot look at what im dealing with. Its looking REAL good with my summit brand headers that have been on the car for ages. I do run a remote oil filter, for the pass side but now with the stick shift I have the driver side to deal with. It looks like a straight shot right now for the zbar. as soon as i have it in hand and start test fitting id load pics.


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Ok so here it goes.. Project is a TKO600 full manual from auto conversion against a 455 in a 1966 Le Mans. Linkage/header clearence issues addressed.

I used the 64-66 z-bar kit from The Parts Place off ebay combined with summit racing headers, part number - SUM-G9020 on a 455. The #7 tube was right in the way stopping full travel of the fork arm on the zbar. I cut the fork side arm off the zbar and moved it over exactly 1 1/8" then rewelded it along with gussets on both the fork and pedal zbar arms. That allowed full travel of the zbar fork arm between the #7 tube and oil pan with no BFH or header destruction to deal with. 

For linkage now that the zbar has been altered, and for pedal smoothness, I used male 5/16 heim joints in female ends welded in 1/2" tubing then carefully bent the tubing to make a smooth line from pedal to zbar through the firewall. For zbar to fork it was a little differant. I took the stock lower rod and hacked off the 90 degree angle side that would normaly connect to the zbar ( after measuring 3 times of course ) It is threaded on bottom and solid on top so I drilled the solid stock out enough so that the female threaded end could be welded in and accept the male heim. 

For attaching the rods to the zbar simple grade 5 hardware did the trick. I used 1-1/4" 5/16 bolts but needed 1/4" wide nylon spacers on either end of the heim joint for full side to side movement. Then a nylon locking nut with thread lock on the end to hold it all in place. This technique was used at the pedal and both ends of the zbar. All available at lowes with a total cost of probably $4. 

The end result is an effortless pedal and no smashed headers (Just knuckles -  ) Before I attached it to the fork/clutch I could move the pedal back and forth full travel with a tap of my pinky!!! arty: 

Headers and a zbar in a manual conversion should NOT be a big hassle. And we should not have to buy $600+ hydraulic BS. If you can afford that then cool... But if your going with a TKO or you already did, then you remember the damage the trans, a nice clutch and flywheel did to your wallet. Mines in the E-R still recovering...

I am going to load pics one of these days, I have plenty. If your doing this to your 66' PM me for any further details or to get some pics Emailed. Id be glad too send what i got. :cheers


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Great, Benjamin. I looks like you thought it out, came up with a plan, and engineered it right. It all depends on your talent and aptitude on these things.....sounds like you're more than up to the challenge. When I redid the Zbar on my '66 all those years ago, it worked out well, too. This was after many blacksmithing mistakes and lessons! Glad to see you got it done.


----------



## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

I would love to see some pics !!!! What you said about money vs. hydraulics SHOULD be builders choice, not because of poorly fitting parts!. I don't see why header companies can't/don't/won't make a set that fit !!?? Perhaps there is a market for your "Z bar upgrade" kit.....:cheers Eric


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Eric Animal said:


> I would love to see some pics !!!! What you said about money vs. hydraulics SHOULD be builders choice, not because of poorly fitting parts!. I don't see why header companies can't/don't/won't make a set that fit !!?? Perhaps there is a market for your "Z bar upgrade" kit.....:cheers Eric


You know my neighbor and i thought about that. Z-bar arms already relocated and adjustable linkage all fabbed up and painted with heim ends ready to go. Only issue is you never know what sort of headers people are running. And your right, you would think header companys by now would have a nice set ready for use with zbars. I hear Dougs fit nice but $600-$700??? Yah right. 

The pics are on the home pc, ill load them asap.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Funny thing is, they've been making headers for GTO's since the beginning.....47 years ago! That's a long time to "get it right"!!!!!


----------



## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

One would think so......post the pics!!!:seeya


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Some pics


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

i forgot to take a pic of the zbar cut and rewelded so heres some blurry ones from under the car already installed.


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

forgot to attach them....


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

And heres the lucky girl receiving the new tremec 

It sits an inch lower now with hotchkis front and ear coils than the pic in the front yard. The stick will be in a console now too. Found a nice automatic one that i had to trim a little bit but the stick will now pass right through where the auto went. A boot should tie it all together. 

Just welded the floor up today and will post more pics soon


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Bensjammin66 said:


> And heres the lucky girl receiving the new tremec
> 
> It sits an inch lower now with hotchkis front and ear coils than the pic in the front yard. The stick will be in a console now too. Found a nice automatic one that i had to trim a little bit but the stick will now pass right through where the auto went. A boot should tie it all together.
> 
> Just welded the floor up today and will post more pics soon


Nice! Love the stance and the color.

Bear


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Thanks a lot Bear!! 

If you ever paint anything blue base coat / clear have them remove most or all of the magenta from of the formula and thats how you get a nice true blue with no purple shade to it. I hate when it changes color under diff light so no there is no magenta at all.


----------



## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Nice car Ben ! Curious, what size wheels and tires are those??? Eric


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Rocket 17x8s with a 4.5" backspace all the way around. 275/40 R17 Nitto 555R Drag radials in back and 235/45 ZR17 Nitto 555 in front. Im not really a tall sidewall guy, I like the driveability/autocross factor in my cars more than anything. Funny cause my brother is the total opposite. His Nova is straight line fast with a 12:1 motor that chugs $7 a gallon fuel. It plows into corners with its 4" wide front wheels but he could care less. 

That pic was last summer and those wheels are actually for sale now. They were $1000 from newstalgiawheel. I got em on craigslist for $600 cause one has a chip. I think they may look better on a gray or black car. I went with a polished torque thrust 2 this time. 

The rockets have a silver nickel painted finish that looks like polished aluminum in the sunlight. That pic was an overcast day and you can still see it.


----------



## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Do the rears clear the wheel wells,or do you have to run real firm in the back? I am trying to figure out what to run on my 67.....:cheers


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

They clear just fine, never a rubbing issue even under hard cornering. I run a hotchkis 1" drop coil too. To top it off even further my 12 bolt is 68-72 width! Ideally with 64-67 that I believe are more narrow width axles you could do a 17x9 with a 5" backspace and be fine. 17x8 with 4.5 is gonna work on your 67 though. 

How I found out without guessing or returning wheels was percys wheelrite. Its a wheel and tire simulator for $70. The tire part of it is simply a piece of wire you bend to shape the tire dimentions once you have the wheel dimentions dialed in on it. I live 15 minutes from Summit Racing so I bought one, used it then returned it... I know I know... But thats how I knew it would clear. 

17 and 18 combo is as far as I would go, I get tons of compliments on the 5 spoke 17s. They look real sharp on our long cars and 1/4 panel bodylines


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

I will post a pic soon of the new polished 17s and the 1" drop on the car once its off the jack stands. I have litterally sat in the garage and killed a 6 pack just staring at them on the car. The rear rubber tucks just perfectly in the 1/4 and is just a touch lower than the fender lip in the front. Not to mention the 275 drag radials once their warm bite harder than a rotweiler.


----------



## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Thanks! post those pics...I am THINKING of running some 18" Billet Specialties wheels, with 275/45ZR-18 rears, and 235/50ZR18 fronts. they are 27.7 and 27.3 tall respectively.....I am a "tall sidewall guy", but the bigger wheels are starting to grow on me (like a fungus):lol: Will be going with a stock to 1" higher ride height............what do you think????? E


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Lessee....."Car and Driver", "Rod and Custom", "Road and Track", "Guns and Ammo".....I think "Headers and Zbars" could be the next big magazine title. It could be a magazine that features a bunch of guys on a budget skinning their knuckles to the bone trying to make parts fit their old cars with hand tools in frozen garages at night.....I like it!!!! It would need plenty of Skoal and Beer ads, and maybe some discount coupons for Hooters.....a kind of "down and dirty" Car Craft....a magazine for REAL car guys who actually work on their cars and don't just open boxes full of new parts!!!


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Stock ride height or more, the 275-45s should be ok out back. Mine are JUST inside the 1/4 at 275/40 with a 4.5" back space and i got 3" of travel above them or more. The fronts are gonna be REAL close with a 50 series 235 on an 18. Consider 40s or 45s. Bottom line you have to measure it. Billet Specialties offers custom offset too i believe. Measure, but you may want a 18x8 or 7 with 4.75" or 5" backspace to clear nicely up front.

Stock ride height and a taller tire should balance out though. 18s are right on that border where wheels start looking big. My 17s look bigger than reg old chrome 15s but 18s stand out. As long as your picking a style that complimets the body lines good youll have a nice look. Stock 11" rotors ( if you have them ) look teeny behind an 18 too. Something else to consider... 14" Baer rotors stop on a dime and fill 17s and 18s. Lotta $$$$ though.

When you do decide to replace flexable rubber sidewall with forged aluminum you will never go back!! Street driven cars need 17s minimum imo. I mean look at new cars, they stopped putting small wheels on new cars for more reasons than looks. Less sidewall flex offers such a nice feel on a driver. My car gets more than 1320 feet at a time put on it so I like the handling and driveability of short stiff sidewalls


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

geeteeohguy said:


> Lessee....."Car and Driver", "Rod and Custom", "Road and Track", "Guns and Ammo".....I think "Headers and Zbars" could be the next big magazine title. It could be a magazine that features a bunch of guys on a budget skinning their knuckles to the bone trying to make parts fit their old cars with hand tools in frozen garages at night.....I like it!!!! It would need plenty of Skoal and Beer ads, and maybe some discount coupons for Hooters.....a kind of "down and dirty" Car Craft....a magazine for REAL car guys who actually work on their cars and don't just open boxes full of new parts!!!


:agree

Thats excellent!! I can see it now.. Did you see the February issue of Headers and Zbars? :rofl:

Its the truth though isnt it geeteeohguy? Sometimes you gotta grind and weld your @ss off instead of just spending more at Summit. Hmmm, Ahhh dont worry well make it fit... I got an Idea...


----------



## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Thanks Ben!


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Bensjammin66 said:


> :agree
> 
> Thats excellent!! I can see it now.. Did you see the February issue of Headers and Zbars? :rofl:
> 
> Its the truth though isnt it geeteeohguy? Sometimes you gotta grind and weld your @ss off instead of just spending more at Summit. Hmmm, Ahhh dont worry well make it fit... I got an Idea...


:agree Man, ain't that the truth. After going though various "challenges" with the brake system, crank pulleys, balancer, windage tray, oil pan..... I'm convinced that one of the biggest lies ever perpetrated on us is the phrase "bolt on".

Bear


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

My brother and I kind of have an ongoing joke we share before we start a project. I'll recruit him for help or vice versa. Take this Friday, we are installing frame ties and Caltrac spring hangers on his Nova. He text me asking for a hand and i said im up for it but make sure you got plenty of kerosene for the torpedo cause it may be a bi%ch. He texts back, " no worrys, they should just bolt right up... In and out"

To that I dont even reply cause we all know...


----------



## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Imagine what I'm going through.......my entire car is a "bolt-up" project!!!!!


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Heres the car with the 1" hotchkiss drop


----------



## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Sweeeeeet!:cheers


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Thought id check back in for the new parts review now that i got about 200 miles on them... 

UMI suspension boxed lowers with sperical ends on the axle side, adjustable uppers with spherical ends on the frame side, UMI frame braces and a hotchkis rear sway bar and Hotchkis 1" drop coils. My take so far? Im blown away. The car hooks and books, I cant even believe it. Road manners are also exceptional. If I had seats that held me in better id feel real confident on a road track. UMI gets an A+ from me. :cheers

Nitto 555 235/45 R17s on front and 275/40 R17 Nitto 555R drag radial rears. Quiet tires at all speeds, great road manners and nice lookin tread. The suspension is helping alot but the tires seem to hold very well at take off and corners. Nitto gets a B. The rears wear much slower than my BFG drags did too so thats great but dont feel as grippy. Nittos 555 series gets a B.

TKO600 with HAYS steel flywheel and ZOOM clutch. Im using mechanical linkage so still getting used to the stiffness. Other than that my only complaints are 2nd and 3rd are REAL close.. I have the .64 OD version and I wish 3rd was a tad taller. I ussually shift 1,2,4 on the back roads. Let me tell you though its a hoot to drive. Coupled with my 3.73s this combo is great. Little noisy in some gears even with dynamat under my console. 2100 rpm with a 26" tire at 70mph is my dream come true though. Very happy. Tremec gets an A- for the trans. If the noise doesnt tame down ill down grade that to a B+. The distance between second and third should be a little greater but all in all very happy with the combo. 

Not much to be said for the axle, went from 3.08s to 3.73s and of course thats fun but that explains itself. Oh just my opinion, save your money on rear disc. I added them and really its for looks behind nice wheels. My drums stopped just as good and believe it or not they were lighter than this setup. Sure looks cool though :lol:


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Thanks for the follow-up. Good information and a time and money saver for any prospective builder. Your comments about the rear disc brakes bear out what I've found to be the case, too. Rear drums work just fine on these cars. Rear discs are a "bragging rights" modification, IMHO.


----------



## pontiac (Mar 6, 2011)

just chain engine down thru the upper control arm shaft, like Chevys to prevent torque flex on z bar.


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

My neighbor had a 327 impala with that setup. The 455 rocks a bit on the rubber motor mounts but i dont see it twisting the zbar. I gusseted it anyway, it would take a grenade to hurt it now lol

And if anyone is searching "Are rear disc brakes worth it on a GTO" The answer is no.. Geeteeo said best, its cool to say "4wheel disc" bout it...


----------



## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

In all honesty, the 2 1/2" aftermarket ram air manifolds are all you need but since your convinced you want headers, here's a couple pics of my Hooker Super Comps mocked up for the Z-bar frame tab install. They are tight...I needed to cut off the upper control arm bolts for clearance.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I dunno about cutting the bolts, Mitch. You may need all of their length to get your alignment to come in. If it were me, I would take a hammer and do some basic blacksmithing on the tubes....slightly flatten them so I could get the nuts on. I know you hate banging stuff up, as much time as you spend undoing the sins of other blacksmiths, but still.....


----------



## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

geeteeohguy said:


> I dunno about cutting the bolts, Mitch. You may need all of their length to get your alignment to come in. If it were me, I would take a hammer and do some basic blacksmithing on the tubes....slightly flatten them so I could get the nuts on. I know you hate banging stuff up, as much time as you spend undoing the sins of other blacksmiths, but still.....


Actually, we talked about this a year ago in my thread. They are ceramic coated so I don't want to do anything to open that to rust issues. I cut the bolts back then too and may regret it. I do have another set of the correct, serrated bolts in case they are now too short. I'm not against slight modification when needed. I had to use a pipe and make a nice curved crease in the headers on the Chevelle for the steering shaft but then they are not coated yet.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Time flies. Forgot about the coating, but now I remember. Too much going on, and I have my nose in everybody's business!!!! I think you'll be ok...you can get the nuts on there before it all bolts together and if you don't need a million shims, it should be fine.


----------



## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Breathing a little life here into an old post to share a review.

Dougs part # D564 headers fit a 1966 GTO / Le Mans better than I ever imagined. Though very expensive boy do THEY FIT. 1 3/4 primary d-port tubes, no dimples no dents no notta. I have a kre headed 455 in it, zbar linkage and all. 
Perfection for that car. Just sharing me experience, spend the money you wont regret it.


----------

