# Cracked my 400 open for new cam. This is what i found.



## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Hey guys. Posted a few times asking questions about cams. since i had lifter tick with stock torque down nuts. little history 1967 GTO correct 400 with 670 heads. 3 speed dearborn with 3:55 gears. Ok I So finally got around to cracking it open. under the valley pan looked good. Wanted your opinion on the pistons. stock? What can the look of the pistons and valves tell you? Timing chain looks loose to me but its been a long time since I have ventured this far. And now the cam. so i measured every one with a caliper and the measurements tell the story. one lobe was nearly rounded (see pic). Can any of these pics tell you what size cam i have? So I need to order my cam,lifters, rockers, springs and new push rods still. looking to just go stock. I have already purchased a double roller chain,oil pump,fuel pump,gasket set,water pump and may be forgetting something. Before its all said and done I am sure I will have more questions. Yours are welcome as well. Ill post pics as well.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

RMTZ67 said:


> Hey guys. Posted a few times asking questions about cams. since i had lifter tick with stock torque down nuts. little history 1967 GTO correct 400 with 670 heads. 3 speed dearborn with 3:55 gears. Ok I So finally got around to cracking it open. under the valley pan looked good. Wanted your opinion on the pistons. stock? What can the look of the pistons and valves tell you? Timing chain looks loose to me but its been a long time since I have ventured this far. And now the cam. so i measured every one with a caliper and the measurements tell the story. one lobe was nearly rounded (see pic). Can any of these pics tell you what size cam i have? So I need to order my cam,lifters, rockers, springs and new push rods still. looking to just go stock. I have already purchased a double roller chain,oil pump,fuel pump,gasket set,water pump and may be forgetting something. Before its all said and done I am sure I will have more questions. Yours are welcome as well. Ill post pics as well.


 was'nt sure how to add more pics. but here they are.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Somebody has been in the engine before "No Retorque" head gaskets. So I would want to know why it was torn down/rebuilt and/or what was done to the engine. Might have been some previous problems someone tried to do a quick fix on and unload the car.

If factory cam, you may find a small letter code stamped on the front snout that may ID the cam. 

Time for the machine shop. All the metal from the worn lobes went somewhere and suspect you have some in your bearings. I would want to have the block cleaned/boiled out to get any metal out from all the oil passages. I would also install threaded plugs in the oil galley passages at the front of the block. Install new cam bearings. Install all new freeze plugs.

Chain is definitely shot. A good double roller set-up is the best. Would not simply re-assemble the short block without checking the bore for wear. Cast rods would be checked for roundness and resized with ARP rod bolts as a minimum BUT........I would go with forged I-Beam replacements which are a little more, but insurance. Probably will need to rebalance it all if you go new rods and/or new pistons. New pistons could lower your compression so you could run pump gas, or you could keep your 10.5 compression and use the racing gas/additives.

Check crank as it may be scored up from metal particles and need to be ground down to clean it up.

Many cam choices. Depends on many factor. If you keep everything factory to include the compression, the "068" is a hard cam to beat for all around performance - you may need matching springs.

You will want to freshen up the heads or at least have them checked for excessive play at the valve stem/guide - which leads to oil burning. Check heads for any warping.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

PontiacJim said:


> Somebody has been in the engine before "No Retorque" head gaskets. So I would want to know why it was torn down/rebuilt and/or what was done to the engine. Might have been some previous problems someone tried to do a quick fix on and unload the car.
> 
> If factory cam, you may find a small letter code stamped on the front snout that may ID the cam.
> 
> ...


 PontiacJim thanks for your response. So if I was to go the lower compression route and change pistons. what affordable pistons and rod kit would you suggest? Would I have to change heads or could I freshen up my existing heads? My existing cam has the #'s 524009 which I looked up seems close to stock. Correct me if I am wrong. I am not well versed in cams so if I did the piston change would I be able to use a 068 cam and change springs. All I see at this point are $$$$$$. And I would hate to spend that kind of money and have a failed cam break in and start all over again. You may get the feeling I have been down this road before. Had someone rebuild a mustang and Z28 engine the z did not go so well. So I may have to go roller cam and avoid all this even tho its a street driven car. Look forward to any advise. Thanks


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Piston selection should be made after you know what the cc's are of your combustion chamber. This is best done after the heads have been assembled as milling the heads can change the cc's, the valve type and/or valve job can change the cc's, and cc's can also be changed should you have any chamber work.

If you are not at a high elevation, ie Denver, you want to shoot for around 9.0 with iron heads so you can run pump gas. You can probably go a tad bit higher based on cam selection and "quench," but it seems no higher than 9.5 compression. Quench article here: What Is The Ideal Quench Height? - Hot Rod Network

You would want to try to achieve around a .045" quench - the distance from the top of the piston to the flat surface found on the head that surrounds the chamber. This forces the air/fuel mixture into the chamber and can eliminate detonation. 

The typical Pontiac piston top is about .015" - .020" down in the cylinder bore and trying to get a good quench area can be done a number of ways. Some will mill the block surface to achieve a "zero deck" clearance where the piston top is even with the piston. There is plenty of material at the top of the block to do this, but you might change other geometry angles, ie the head's intake surface, which may need to be milled a matching amount. The valley pan may need some trimming to fit/seat squarely. You also want to ensure that none of your head bolts bottom out and crack the block - so depending on head gasket thickness used, they should be checked/mic'd. I have used the ARP head studs and mistakenly ordered the RA IV studs which have a couple longer studs than the standard 400 head and inserted an extra washer under the head to get the length correct - might not be the correct or advised way to do things, but it worked with no issues.

Another way is to have your machinist measure the distance from the crank's rod throw to the top of the block's deck surface and calculate where the piston pin needs to be located, using your connecting rod of choice, to get the top of the piston even with the block's deck. This is something done if ordering a set of custom pistons-to-order.

Both of the above methods make it easier when ordering head gaskets as having a "zero deck", you simply order a head gasket having a .045" crush. (Some will say .040" works as well, but I use .045" based on what my machinist recommends to take into consideration the heat of expansion, future wear, and even stretch at higher RPM's. If you use nitrous on the engine, he recommends more and says some of his nitrous engines go .060" or more if a really big shot.)

The third option, which I went with on my 455 I am building was to use a thinner head gasket along with the pistons being down in the cylinder .020". I purchased a set of Cometic brand head gaskets ( which run about $100 each, but are some of the best) having a thickness of .027" So, the .020 "down in the hole" plus the .027 gasket equals a quench distance of .047" which is right about where I want it.  I also plan on about a 100-125 HP shot of nitrous.

So why is this important? The cc's of your head, the cc's of the area above the piston to the block deck, and the cc's of the head gasket you select will all add up to a total number of cc's. With this information in hand, you can then use one of the online compression calculators _to determine _how many cc's you will need to incorporate through either a dished piston or the valve notches found in the piston tops to achieve your 9.0 +/- compression ratio.

Additionally, depending on cam lift/duration and cam advance/retard, you want to make sure the valve notches in the piston tops will give you the needed clearances so the valves don't kiss the piston tops.

Cam selection is one of many opinions and I have mine. These are by no means absolutes. The cams with the 110-112 Lobe Separation Angle (LSA) work better in a street engine with less than 9.0 compressions as they build additional cylinder pressure. The cams with 113-115 LSA (like stock cams) work better in a street engine with over 9.5 compression as they can lower cylinder pressure at lower RPM's which get picked back up at the higher RPM's. So for me, the compromise for a street engine having 9.0-9.5 compression is 112 LSA. This is what I selected for my 455 build.

Other important factors are Intake Closing point, duration, lift, and valve overlap. For lift, stock heads don't flow much past .450" lift and is why Pontiac cams increase duration versus lift, EXCEPT for the better breathing RA/SD Heads.

So, would the "068" cam work with lower compression- yes. Might there be a better choice - probably. LOL You don't want to go much over 280 degrees duration for the street, and less can sometimes be even better depending on trans/torque converter stall & rear end gearing. Build a Pontiac for Torque over HP. Perhaps the "068" ground on a 112 LSA might be a good cam with 9.0 compression.

I did a comparison, perhaps not 100% accurate by any means, but still a good comparison, using the 1977 Trans-Am Cam specs in both the 400 & 455 engine. This cam is not what I would consider very radical, but a good street cam. I used an engine Dyno program giving each engine a streetable 9.25 compression. Then I changed the rate of valve lift which mirrors the assorted Pontiac factory cams while still using the 1977 cam duration and LSA. Each engine can be compared at a base line of 2,000 RPM's and then for a maximum HP & TQ at their best RPM. You will see that the HP increases quite a bit from the base line to the maximum/best HP number, but the TQ not so much because the torque remains strong and somewhat flat throughout the entire range - which is what you want as TQ is what moves the car and smokes the tires. The .469" of lift would be about max for stock heads. See attachment.

Roller cams certainly have their advantages, probably more over a flat tappet cam. The down side is of course cost. I am also one who would strongly recommend using the lifter valley brace when using a roller cam - and I would not do without it if I used a roller. As far as bad cams, I think there are many factors that go into those stories & experiences of them going flat. I read that many issues stemmed from the Chinese lifters that were being introduced into the country in high numbers and cheap cost - they were junk. That has since change. How bad can a flat tappet cam/lifters be when you have a supplier who sells both roller and flat tappet cams guarantee them not to go bad or they will replace them? Our cams are guaranteed not to go flat! 

First is improper break-in, from not using a good cam/lifter lube that sticks to the parts rather than a slimy liquid that runs off. (I would venture to guess that some people have put the lighter cam lubes on and then let the engine sit for a while. By the time they were ready to fire up the engine, the lube had all but dripped/seeped off.) Installing the cam/lifters and a good break-in lube should be done when you are just about ready to fire up the engine - its in the car and you are buttoning it all up. 


Using improper break-in oil. A good specific break-in oil with the correct amount of Zinc in it should be used. You can also add a Zinc additive to other oils that may not have the needed amount, but I think the best way to go would be to use the correct formulated oil right from the start. Using an oil that is too thick - which can affect the flow/bleed rate of the lifters which can mean not enough oil supply at the most critical time in breaking in the cam/lifters. I plan on using the Brad Penn break-in oil, but the Joe Gibbs break-in oil also gets good reviews. I will then follow up with the oil with the formulated Zinc additive before going to the store bought oil and adding a container of Zinc additive like Rislone puts out.

Priming the engine just before starting. Again, don't prime the engine and let it sit for a week or more. It would also be a good thing to rotate the engine by hand to ensure all air pockets are worked out and oil gets to all places it needs to go. My machinist uses an oiling pressure system that he taps into the oil pressure fitting and pressurizes the oil into the engine.

Several lifter suppliers now offer their lifters with a small hole lasered into the base that lets a small amount of oil to seep out onto the cam lobe thus lubricating the cam/lifter. Rhodes Lifters have a tiny channel that runs along the side to do this, and there is even a tool that will scour the lifter bore and allow oil to flow down the channel much like the tiny channel found on the outside of the Rhodes lifter bodies. I would go with the Rhodes before scouring my lifter bore with a channel.

Many install BIG lift cams that require heavy pressure valve springs - typically a dual spring set-up. The added pressures, along with many who then add the higher 1.65 lift rocker arms, puts excessive pressures on the cam lobes/lifter bases and can cause them to wear prematurely if there is any starvation of break-in lube or oil. It is suggested to run just the outside spring for cam break-in and then add the inner spring once this is accomplished. It is the spring rates that really determine this. I am using double valve springs and my machinist said I don't have to pull the inner springs to break in my cam. I think my lift is .490" on the cam I am using.

Varying the engine speeds when breaking in a cam is important. Have seen a few YouTube videos claiming first time fire up and they let the engine idle or rev the crap out of it. My machinist uses an engine break-in stand and says he likes to vary the engine speed and get the engine up to temperature and then shut it down to allow it to cool. He repeats this a couple times. It works for him and he would not be doing it if it caused problems.

You also want to have the timing adjusted as soon as you get it fired. I have never experienced a cam failure, but that was when oil had all the ingredients to protect them from wear.

So roller or flat tappet is a choice and I'd go with whatever you feel most confident with. For me, its about cost and the roller set-up is more than I care to spend for a street engine. If I were to go all out with aluminum heads, BIG HP & TQ, then I'd step up to the plate and go roller. 

For rods, you have choices here too. I like light rods - less rotating mass. I think the forged I-beam rods might be lighter than the H-beam's. They are just like stock rods except forged. The H-beams are for higher HP engines and strokers. For a street engine and cost effectiveness, I'd go with the forged I-beam rods.

Piston choice, once you know how many CC's you need out of them, can be almost any manufacturer. Forged are the best, but most expensive. I went with the ICON FHR pistons on my 455 build as they were forged and meet my goal of 9.0 compression. Hypereutectic piston can be a reasonable cost. I used these in my brother's built up Mopar 360CI street engine. These are better than cast, but not as good as forged - kinda in between in my opinion. Some love them, other hate them. Lastly are cast pistons. Fine for a stock rebuild and will hold up if kept under 6,000 RPM's.

With new pistons/rods, you will have to have the engine balanced.

:thumbsup:


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## 1967GeeTeeOh (Apr 29, 2018)

Check out Wallace Racing Website Cam Specs @ Wallace Racing - Pontiac Factory Cam Specs
1964 GTO or 421	C	273	113	.407"	.447"	54	289	113	.407"	.447"	524009


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

1967GeeTeeOh said:


> Check out Wallace Racing Website Cam Specs @ Wallace Racing - Pontiac Factory Cam Specs
> 1964 GTO or 421	C	273	113	.407"	.447"	54	289	113	.407"	.447"	524009


The "009" cam first showed up in 1963 on the 320HP 421CI engines. It was used again in 1964 on the 421 engines and the '64 389CI GTO engine. It is the same cam used from 1965-1976 and better known as the "067"/letter code "P" cam. Typically used in automatics while the hotter "068"/ letter code "S" HO cam was typically used in manual transmission cars.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Hey guys So i spent a little time in the garage this weekend and measured the cc volume in both the heads and piston/bore at tdc. The heads measured 75cc and the piston/bore at 15cc. I measured my deck height with a straight edge and filler gauges and caliper and it sits around 0.27 down in the bore. For money sake I will build it back stock. I t seems my cam is (C ) #524009 which seems like a close to stock cam. PontiacJim you were correct about the shavings going some where. seems my crank and bearings have some minor scratches but oddly enough the cam and cam bearings were not affected. So does anyone have any idea what my compression could possibly be? when I check my compression #'s they were roughly in the 155-160 numbers across the board. is it possible to get anywhere close to be able to use pump gas w/o new pistons rods balance and the like? my plan was stock cam but if a 068 with new springs will work maybe I would go that route. would I be able to use stock pushrods with that set up? pontiacjim mentioned a 068 cam was used on (manual) cars which is what I have. I will also install Doug thorley ceramic 3 tube headers (Pray for me) and 2.5" exhaust. I will install studs for the headers while the engine is out. Can you purchase those anywhere?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Use your numbers in the Wallace calculator. Compression Ratio Calculator - Wallace Racing

An option might be to open up the chambers a little by "unshrouding" the valves. Ferrea has "dished" valves which may give up a cc or two. I would contact any of the big name Pontiac builders like Butler, KRE, or SD and see what they might recommend to lower the compression but retain the stock short block and 670 heads.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Well guys I am taking this engine build slowly refreshing my memory and building my knowledge. Gonna take my heads in to refresh them only I hope. Engine had been rebuilt in its past w/ almost no ridge at the top of the cylinder bores. Car ran good no smoke but the cam lobes wore down (lifter tick) on stock torque rockers. Since I have owned it I have used vavoline vr 1 racing oil which I believe has 12-1300 parts zinc. so not sure why. . Anyway heres my latest find.(PIC) Somewhat expected. bearings did there job and limited the crank to minor scratches which will head to the machine shop soon.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

*torque down or adjustable lifters*



PontiacJim said:


> The "009" cam first showed up in 1963 on the 320HP 421CI engines. It was used again in 1964 on the 421 engines and the '64 389CI GTO engine. It is the same cam used from 1965-1976 and better known as the "067"/letter code "P" cam. Typically used in automatics while the hotter "068"/ letter code "S" HO cam was typically used in manual transmission cars.


Pontiacjim I have a question. So i have decided to go the stock route on my 400 with a 068 cam. Now is it best/ok to use the torque method or get 7/16 studs and polly locks? Torque seems like the easy way out but maybe not the best? I got the correct pontiac lifters stock push rods new valve springs with 95-105 lbs closed spring pressure and the open spring pressure is below 300 lbs. Thanks for your opinion. Also the addition of the 068 and 3 tube header/2.5 exhaust I will need a good tuning on my quadrajet. Any one on the forum do this? and will my stock point distributor need any updating? Thanks again.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Sent my block in for cleaning and honing, heads for a refresh w/ new springs guides and seals. and crank needed a minor grind to clean it up. ordered a 068 cam lifters,oil pump ,water pump fuel pump, 3 tube ceramic coated headers, 2.5 exhaust w/ magnaflow mufflers. plus some cosmetic goodies. may break out the wallet for 4 wheel disk brakes while the motors out since there is a good portion of lines vacuum assist stuff in the engine bay. Also you may see pics of me on skid row after all this. But ill have my GTO. Stay tuned for updates.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

UPDATE: So heard from the machine shop and my 400 will need its first bore. they will do either 0.20 or 0.30 over. so guess what that means? New pistons and probably rods and balance.$$$$$$$ On the positive side it will end up running on pump gas just fine. Does anyone have a reasonable priced piston and rod combo you can recommend? skid row here I come.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

RMTZ67 said:


> Pontiacjim I have a question. So i have decided to go the stock route on my 400 with a 068 cam. Now is it best/ok to use the torque method or get 7/16 studs and polly locks? Torque seems like the easy way out but maybe not the best? I got the correct pontiac lifters stock push rods new valve springs with 95-105 lbs closed spring pressure and the open spring pressure is below 300 lbs. Thanks for your opinion. Also the addition of the 068 and 3 tube header/2.5 exhaust I will need a good tuning on my quadrajet. Any one on the forum do this? and will my stock point distributor need any updating? Thanks again.


Personally, I prefer the 7/16" ARP BB rocker arm studs because you are getting rid of the bottle neck 7/16" base with the 3/8" threaded top - thus the term "bottle neck." The poly locks have to be used with the 7/16" studs to lock the rocker arms down. I also feel it much easier to adjust your valves to the "zero lash" setting while engine is warm and running and be done with it. With the bottle neck studs and torque down method, you can't really take advantage of the "zero lash" setting. However, the Bobcat Kit used to tune-up and increase performance on the Pontiac engines included a set of stock looking rocker arm nuts with the nylock tops so you could "zero lash" your lifters and they would not back off. I would think these would have needed a little attention to checking them every so often so they did not loosen up, but no doubt they worked. 

Not sure if the stock push rod purchase at this time was the way to go. If your machine shop mills the heads, make sure it is a clean-up cut and minimal just to square things up. If he makes a larger cut for some reason, then you might need to go with a different length push rod. So keep this in mind.

Make sure you reassemble your heads using the metal oil shields that go over the valve springs. Some leave these out, but they are needed to aid in controlling oil consumption and keeping oil off the valve stem.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

RMTZ67 said:


> UPDATE: So heard from the machine shop and my 400 will need its first bore. they will do either 0.20 or 0.30 over. so guess what that means? New pistons and probably rods and balance.$$$$$$$ On the positive side it will end up running on pump gas just fine. Does anyone have a reasonable priced piston and rod combo you can recommend? skid row here I come.



At this point, go with forged rods. You don't need the H-beams unless you simply want them. Running a basically stock engine, the forged I-beam rods are superior to the stock rods and better priced than the H-beams. If you were going a rotating assembly, then the "kit" typically includes the H-beams along with forged pistons. Forged I-beam rods here - https://butlerperformance.com/i-24453555-rpm-5140-forged-i-beam-rod-6-625-2-250-pontiac-rj.html These are added insurance and will take more RPM's than your engine will probably ever see. Note that these are press-fit wrist pins like stock which are fine.

Pistons are an open subject. If you go .020" over, it may mean custom sized forged pistons. .020" also means your next overbore could be .030", so you kinda get another boring out of the engine IF you freshen it up earlier than most do and there is no deep scouring of the cylinder walls. Otherwise, you might have to skip .030" and go .040" on the next (if ever) rebuild.

Going .030" over will generally open you up to more choices as this is a "standard" size overbore.

Piston selection is also based on your compression choice. For pump gas & iron heads, typically 9.0-9.3 is about it. Quench area is important to aid in controlling detonation. You want to shoot for .040 - .045" depending on piston material - forged pistons expand more than cast or hypereutectic pistons. So you want to measure and know what your actual head cc's are, not what the websites says they are. You also need to know what the volume is above the piston when in the bore (or down in the bore). Typically Pontiac pistons can be anywhere from .010" - .020" down in the bore. This number can be calculated into cc's to go along with your head cc's. The head gasket choice/thickness & bore adds a few more cc's. These numbers all totalled into a final cc number will then determine what kind of piston crown you will need to give you a compression near 9.0 to 1. It may be deeper 4 valve reliefs or even a dished piston. So the piston crown volume/cc's will affect your piston selection.

Forged pistons are best and can take more punishment from detonation. They are also typically heavier and more expen$ive. You can reduce piston weight by selecting a lighter piston pin, but this may be an extra cost option rather than included with the piston. I like lighter pistons/pins, but you are going to pay for it.

Cast pistons are actually OK. The factory cast pistons were good up to 6,000 RPM's. So if you kept your RPM's below this, and 5,800 RPM's was about the limit of the cam anyway, you were good. Ran those crappy 8-valve relief cast pistons in my last 400CI build. Actually ran well and I would spin the engine up to 5,700 RPM's where the cam/power dropped off like a stone.

Next up are the hypereutectic pistons. Used these in my brother's built up 360 Mopar after doing some research. Cheaper than forged and stronger than cast - reasonably priced. Engine is kept under 6,000 RPM's. They expand less when hot so you can run a tad bit tighter clearances (forged pistons need more clearance to account for their expansion). I figure this might also help with wear because they expand and contract less. Personally, I would not have a problem running them on a stock type engine build or one slightly warmed over. 

On my 455 .060" over build, I went with the Icon FHR series pistons. I plan on a little nitrous, so forged is the way to go with any power adder. I also run my cars hard, so again, forged is best here. The Icon FHR has assorted crowns that allow you to select one that may work with your engine to get you near the 9 to 1 compression range. I did not "zero deck" my block which some do and my pistons are .020" down in the bore. So I chose a Cometic head gasket at .027" thickness to give me a .047" quench distance (.020" + .027" = .047" total quench). Keep in mind that using the thinner head gasket gets me my desired quench numbers, but it also drops my head closer to the piston just as it would if I had milled the head .012" if the typical head gasket (Felpro) crush is .039". So in my case, and because I know the heads have had a clean-up pass on the milling machine, I will use a push rod checking tool to verify the correct push rod length for my engine. I will also check my valve-to-piston clearance as well. So keep this in mind should you use the thinner head gasket to reduce the quench area.

Now this is not an absolute thing, but the better quench measurement is an added preventative that may prevent detonation when maximizing your timing advance. Not saying a wider quench will not work, but it may require the timing to be adjusted less aggressively to counter any detonation - something we used to do anyway when you heard the engine "pinging" under load on those hot summer days. So something to discuss with your machinist.

So get the needed cc numbers and then do some research and reading in selecting the piston for your application. Your shop should help you on all this. :thumbsup:


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

*piton and rod selection*



PontiacJim said:


> At this point, go with forged rods. You don't need the H-beams unless you simply want them. Running a basically stock engine, the forged I-beam rods are superior to the stock rods and better priced than the H-beams. If you were going a rotating assembly, then the "kit" typically includes the H-beams along with forged pistons. Forged I-beam rods here - https://butlerperformance.com/i-24453555-rpm-5140-forged-i-beam-rod-6-625-2-250-pontiac-rj.html These are added insurance and will take more RPM's than your engine will probably ever see. Note that these are press-fit wrist pins like stock which are fine.
> 
> Pistons are an open subject. If you go .020" over, it may mean custom sized forged pistons. .020" also means your next overbore could be .030", so you kinda get another boring out of the engine IF you freshen it up earlier than most do and there is no deep scouring of the cylinder walls. Otherwise, you might have to skip .030" and go .040" on the next (if ever) rebuild.
> 
> ...


 Pontiacjim thanks for your help. So I contacted butler with this info and there recommendations were similar or same as yours 1967 gto 400 stock engine will be getting its first bore @ 0.30 over 068 cam,stock 75 cc heads ( measured) 3 speed manual,355 rear gears 5000 altitude and 91-93 fuel. I am not well versed in posting links so the butler recommendation will be on the next post. I am familiar with stock builds without a bore being necessary,rings bearings,cam oil pump etc. But pistons rods and quench is new to me. I have learned a lot since joining this forum. So my questions are as follows. Do you think there recommendation is a go? my engine had a stock cam 067 and the machine shop is just freshening up my heads. no mill. My stock engine had 15cc @ tdc on the pistons. Am I supposed to buy the they pistons recommended then install to determine my quench once piston to deck are cc'd? I will be putting the engine back together. The machine shop is going to supply the rings and bearings.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Here is butlers recommendation.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Hmmm. Not sure what you mean in that you had 15cc's on top of piston @ TDC. Assume you did a volume measurement which would inlclude the valve reliefs plus the area above the piston to top of block deck?

What is needed to determine quench is the drop from the top of the block deck to the top of your piston @ TDC. A digital micrometer can give you this, which should measure between .010" and .020". This is what is needed, but, different manufacturers can have slightly different piston pin heights and it is the piston pin height ( measured from the center of your piston pin hole to the top of the piston) that can change the piston height down in the bore.

You could measure your drop from top of block to top of piston, then when you pull a piston, have your machinist measure the pin height which will give you a number you can use in selecting your new pistons OR use the difference for calculating how far down in the bore your new pistons will be - if any difference at all.

As I said earlier, this number, top of the piston to block deck is used in determining your quench distance. If you look at your head, you will see the obvious chamber area. Then you will see the flat area on each side of the chamber. The flat area of the head will meet the top of the piston @ TDC. No combustion should take place here as it all takes place in the combustion chamber. To ensure that all of the air/fuel mix is squeezed into the combustion chamber, the distance between the top of the piston and the flat area of the head is called the quench area. That little space between the 2 is where you want to have a .040"-.045" distance which compresses to force the air/fuel mixture out and into the combustion chamber. If there is a much larger space, it is possible for the air/fuel mix within that area to ignite and can be a cause of detonation as the air/fuel mixture does not burn efficiently.

Again, as noted, to get the best quench measurement of .040" - .045" (depending on piston material/expansion), you need to know how far down in the hole the piston top is @ TDC AND the compressed thickness of your head gasket.

If the piston were .010" down in the hole and you selected a Cometic head gasket of .027" thick, your quench distance would be .037" which could be too tight and you may have a piston hit the head. On the other hand, if the piston was .010" down in the hole and you selected a Felpro .041" thick head gasket, your quench distance would be .051" which is a little more than the ideal of .040" - .045".

In both instance above, your piston being down in the hole .010" is a fixed number, you really can't change it (unless you were to deck the block .010" to get a "zero deck" height.) But without altering the block, the piston would be .010" down from the deck. So to achieve the desired quench, you select a head gasket that would give you .040" - .045". So you would want a head gasket that compresses to .030" - .035" (.010" + .030" = .040" OR .010" + .035" = .045")

Now, you say you have 15 cc's above the piston @ TDC. How far down in the hole is it? If it was .020" and then you selected a replacement piston that is now .010" down in the hole, your cc's will change. The change in cc's could affect your final compression ratio by increasing it UNLESS you compensate with more cc's in the piston dome through the use of 4 valve reliefs or even dished pistons.

My opinion here, but if you shoot for 9 to 1 compression or a little more, then slight changes won't have any big effect on final compression because you are building in a little buffer to cover any slight changes in calculations - your total cc numbers.

I use the Wallace compression calculator Compression Ratio Calculator - Wallace Racing to get a pretty close number for compression. You can play around with the numbers so it is helpful in selecting a piston top configuration having "X" amount of cc's built into it. Most all pistons will give you the number of cc's the valve reliefs take up or any dished area will use - so you will see numbers like 6 cc's, 11 cc's, 14 cc's or 18 cc's.

On the calculator, you want the deck height & gasket thickness to fall between the quench distance of .040" - .045" when they are added up together - and this is why you need to know how far down in the hole the piston top is (deck height). Head cc's you know as 75 cc's. So you will play around with the piston cc's to arrive at a compression ratio of between 9.0 and up to 9.5 max with the iron heads and 93 octane. The "068" cam may bleed off some compression at the very lowest of RPM's due to its overlap thus making compression pressure a little lower at these lower RPM's which of course will pick right back up once your RPM's get into higher numbers.

Butler knows their stuff, as do several other Pontiac engine builders. I have emailed them myself and gotten good responses. So I would trust their input. Now you can ask them about the quench distance just to confirm what I have thrown at you. They may have another opinion - I certainly am no expert and don't know everything, and each engine build is unique. :thumbsup:


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

*Quench*



PontiacJim said:


> Hmmm. Not sure what you mean in that you had 15cc's on top of piston @ TDC. Assume you did a volume measurement which would inlclude the valve reliefs plus the area above the piston to top of block deck?
> 
> What is needed to determine quench is the drop from the top of the block deck to the top of your piston @ TDC. A digital micrometer can give you this, which should measure between .010" and .020". This is what is needed, but, different manufacturers can have slightly different piston pin heights and it is the piston pin height ( measured from the center of your piston pin hole to the top of the piston) that can change the piston height down in the bore.
> 
> ...


 PontiacJim I was just reading thru some of my prior posts after the machinist calculated my compression ratio with everything mocked up. This is a little confusing to me but here goes. He tells My heads are at 69 cc after milling. Says the piston is .35 down in the hole. using the pistons below. and figuring the felpro stock gasket(.42?) If I do no decking I will have 9.1 compression. since the piston is so far down in the hole how does that affect my quench. and what is the best way to proceed? I called to talk to the owner but he starts early and had already left. this is all thats left to decide on. I'll have to give him a call tomorrow so that gives me some time to gather some info and opinions before I talk to him. Thanks RMTZ67


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

OK, piston is in the hole .035", not .35" - otherwise the Wallace calculator puts you at below a 6-to-1 compression. LOL So I too come up with 9.1 compression using the Felpro .041 gasket @ 4.2" bore size.

.035" down in the hole plus .041" gasket gives you a quench of .076" - a bit too much in my opinion.. And from everything I read, anything over .050" - .060" is really too much and can lead to poor burning of the air/fuel mixture and possibly detonation problems.

Let's shoot for .045" for the Quench area. .076" (what you have) - .045" (what you prefer) = .031" (what you need to remove).

I would use the .027" Cometic head gaskets (another $100 each). That gives you your present .035" down in the hole + .027" = .062" for your Quench area - still a bit too much, but better than .076".

So how do you get to the .045" Quench? If you can get a .062" Quench (from above) by using the Cometic head gaskets, take that number .062" - .045" (the desired Quench) leaving you with a difference of .017" which is the amount you would need to deck the block. .035" down in the hole + .027" Cometic gasket = .062" MINUS the .017" milled from the deck = .045". 

.017" is next to nothing with regards to milling. Milling .017" from the block deck would then have your pistons .018" down in the hole (.035" - .017" = .018" down in the hole).

.018" (pistons down in the hole) + .027" (Cometic head gasket) = .045" Quench area - just what you want to shoot for.

Now this will change your compression a bit. Wallace Calculator says the new compression will be 9.76-to-1. Getting a little too high. But, with a good Quench and a long duration (larger overlap cam), you _*might*_ get way with 9.76 on 93 octane.

Now you have to figure a course of action to get the compression down.

A. - assemble the engine as is with the larger Quench - not recommended.

B. - get an additional 6 cc's from somewhere to drop compression to 9.25
1. - open up the head chamber a few more cc's
2. - mill a little more away on the raised area on the dish where the valve reliefs are
3. - combination of both

My guess would be that the pistons would be the easiest place to remove/mill the needed 6 cc's versus opening up the head chamber. My guess would be less labor in milling the pistons once the milling machine was set-up - it would be repeated on each piston so it would be consistent.

As you can see, no simple solution, and it will add more $ to the build. Would I do it? Yes. I would not want to take a chance of building an engine and then have detonation problems or have to retard my timing back and kill power.

Again, take all this as my opinion and suggestions - and I hope I got it all right. LOL You want to talk to your machinist and run this by him to see how he feels about it as he is the guy building your engine. He may be onboard and agree 100% or tweak a few things to get to where you want to be. :thumbsup:


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

*Uuugh!!!!*



PontiacJim said:


> OK, piston is in the hole .035", not .35" - otherwise the Wallace calculator puts you at below a 6-to-1 compression. LOL So I too come up with 9.1 compression using the Felpro .041 gasket @ 4.2" bore size.
> 
> .035" down in the hole plus .041" gasket gives you a quench of .076" - a bit too much in my opinion.. And from everything I read, anything over .050" - .060" is really too much and can lead to poor burning of the air/fuel mixture and possibly detonation problems.
> 
> ...


 Thats what I figured.:banghead: machinist and butler calculated my compression as such but left out the quench factor with pistons being so far down in the hole.So looks like the .027 gasket mill .017 and ask about the piston milling. I have a 068 cam and would my elevation being 5000 change much? And i'll ask butler about the quench area.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

RMTZ67 said:


> Thats what I figured.:banghead: machinist and butler calculated my compression as such but left out the quench factor with pistons being so far down in the hole.So looks like the .027 gasket mill .017 and ask about the piston milling. I have a 068 cam and would my elevation being 5000 change much? And i'll ask butler about the quench area.


YES! On the elevation. Elevation has a big factor! If you are up at 5,000 feet and plan on driving the car in your area, then the 9.76 compression might be exactly what you want and will not be a problem. As the elevations gets higher, atmosphere pressures change and you need more compression at higher altitudes. 9.1 compression may actually be too low at your elevation.

So you might easily be able to go with the .027" Cometics and mill the block .017" to get your Quench and do nothing more. :thumbsup:


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

*deck milling*



PontiacJim said:


> YES! On the elevation. Elevation has a big factor! If you are up at 5,000 feet and plan on driving the car in your area, then the 9.76 compression might be exactly what you want and will not be a problem. As the elevations gets higher, atmosphere pressures change and you need more compression at higher altitudes. 9.1 compression may actually be too low at your elevation.
> 
> So you might easily be able to go with the .027" Cometics and mill the block .017" to get your Quench and do nothing more. :thumbsup:


 Talked to someone at butler today and asked about the .027 cometic gasket. He did not seem to have favorable opinion of either the gasket or the thickness/thinness of it. And also surprised me by saying the quench area on a street driven car is not a issue. I told him my piston was .035 down in the hole. He said put a stock thickness gasket and be done with it. you will not notice a difference. So when I measured my stock pistons with a straight edge and feeler gauge it was .027 down and .041 stock gasket that would have been a.068 quench. But I did have some pinging on occasion. So from reading the jury seems to be out on the gaskets. If I decked .30 (thats what the machinist wants to do) and used stock gaskets would I have issues with valley pan or intake fitament issues? This is my last:willy:Hopefully part of the puzzle to be able to start assembly. I am aware clearing that much of the deck is the blocks last. Any thoughts.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

RMTZ67 said:


> Talked to someone at butler today and asked about the .027 cometic gasket. He did not seem to have favorable opinion of either the gasket or the thickness/thinness of it. And also surprised me by saying the quench area on a street driven car is not a issue. I told him my piston was .035 down in the hole. He said put a stock thickness gasket and be done with it. you will not notice a difference. So when I measured my stock pistons with a straight edge and feeler gauge it was .027 down and .041 stock gasket that would have been a.068 quench. But I did have some pinging on occasion. So from reading the jury seems to be out on the gaskets. If I decked .30 (thats what the machinist wants to do) and used stock gaskets would I have issues with valley pan or intake fitament issues? This is my last:willy:Hopefully part of the puzzle to be able to start assembly. I am aware clearing that much of the deck is the blocks last. Any thoughts.


Hmmm. Interesting response from Butler. I cannot argue with their opinion as I don't build the number of engines they do and don't have their "real world" experience. However, I reserve the right to disagree for what it's worth.

First, I am going with what my machinist of 40 plus years suggested on the Cometic gaskets. He builds all types of engines from antique to stock to supercharged. So I went with what he suggested and have to trust him. In searching on the web reading reviews, the reviews like all things are mixed. Some seem to have had issues and would never use them again while others swear by them saying they are the best. From what I did read, once again it is preparation of the head & block surfaces as well as using new head bolts. I am sure a number of the bad reviews come from people who did not do the prep work and just threw them on. They don't seem to be as forgiving as some of the other brands which most of us use. Many of the bad reviews are older posts, like the hyper pistons. Summit has 218 reviews on the gaskets and it just about has a 5 star rating from its customers. That said, like all things in an engine build, it is a matter of opinion and should be taken under the advisement by your engine builder. Felpro of course is tried and true, so it is certainly an excellent choice - I suggested the Cometics only on the basis of trying to get the best Quench area for your engine based on the information you have provided. :thumbsup:

Now on the Quench thing, I prefer not to accept the wider factory Quench or "Squish" as it is also called versus a tighter Quench. Certainly the factory has a much wider range. Pontiacs look to be about .060" and read that the Mopar guys can have up to .110" on some of their factory egine combos. Will it work? Obviously it will, but most of these cars back in the day had the lead additive to combat detonation or engine knock. If you encountered it at one grade, you could simply go to a higher grade that had higher octane and higher anti-knock properties. From what I read, the Sunoco 260 was 102-104 octane and the Sunoco 270 was 110 octane - which is racing gas. So detonation was not a problem with cars running 11.5 compression. So a wider Quench would also not be a problem because of what I stated earlier - just get a higher grade leaded gas at the pump with additional anti-knock properties and you would be good to go.

However, we don't have that luxury today and from hearing from some of our members, it seems 87,89, & 91 octanes are the available gases while some of us have 93 and ethanol free 89 octane. The ethanol in the gas in my opinion and from my experience can be problematic in a number of ways. I experience evaporation & hard starts with my '73 Fury which runs hot under the hood. My brother has had problems with his '73 Plymouth and his '57 Caddy won't start if he shuts the car down on a 90+ degree day and then tries to fire it a short time thereafter. "Heat soak" boils the fuel out of the gas line (which runs up along the hot engine) and carb (which has the same style exhaust heat crossover under the carb like the 1967 GTO does) and he has to let it cool down a bit to get it running again. He installed an electric fuel pump in the '73 and has had no problems starting since. He is now going to install one in his Caddy and do a few other things to help keep the fuel cooler. The shop doing his work says the ethanol is a problem in the hot summer months on the older cars and many install the electric pumps to overcome the gas boiling. Winter is not an issue. So I think we can all agree that tody's gas has its problems when used in our older cars.

So why a tighter Quench? The quench or "squish" also cools the combustion chamber. As the mixture is "squished" it quenches the chamber (this is why it is called quench). A good Quench controls where in the combustion chamber the charge will be, and with this you can control "when" it is ignited. When the spark lights the air/fuel mixture you want the flame to burn across the top of the piston in a controlled fashion. When the spark plug fires, you want it to be like a stone thrown into a pond where you get the rippled effect as it goes in a controlled manner out from the stone.

A wide quench area, typically anything over .060", can lends itself to a lazy flame pattern that can contribute to an incomplete or slow combustion process. Rather than produce a controlled burn like that from a tight quench, there is a MUCH higher chance of having more than one flame front due to the combustion process being all over the chamber and if you have more than one flame front - this is where detonation comes from. A tighter quench also minimizes the build up of carbon deposits and sometimes these carbon deposits can remain red hot like a charcoal brickette and ignite the air/fuel mixture before the spark plug gets a chance to - and now you have two flame fronts running into each other in an uncontrolled burn and you can experience pre-ignition, detonation, and other related problems under high load conditions.

The tighter quench forces the air/fuel mixture into the combustion chamber area where you want it and it creates turbulence in stirring up the air/fuel mixture. This then produces more power overall due to the better and concentrated burn of the air/fuel mixture. The "squish" aspect of the quench area will also cool the combustion chamber as the air/fuel charge rushes across the top of the piston. Again, quench area is not as big a concern IF you are running a high octane type gas that will suppress detonation tendencies. You probably won't have to worry much about quench area in a low compression engine either.

You can read more on this all over the web, so it is not something I have invented or am blowing smoke out my butt over. I want the best burn of the incoming air/fuel mixture and the greatest protection against detonation possibilities - period. So you will have to decide on how you stand on quench distance. I know where I stand on it and have built my engine by these facts.

Cutting the block .030" is indeed an option. It would make it easier to achieve the desired quench area using the standard Felpro head gaskets. It would most likely save a few $ over the expensive Cometic gaskets and the Felpro's are more forgiving if there were any minor irregularities in the head/block surfaces.

If the block is decked .030", you should not have too much problem with the valley pan. You may have to trim a little if anything at all. Trial fit it first. Just use a good RTV when you assemble. The .030" will in effect drop your heads lower which may change the position of the intake ports which may not match your intake as it should. You may have to either mill a slight/matching amount on the intake side of the heads or on the intake. Your machinist can fill you in on what he feels would be the best way to attack this. Trial fit your intake at any rate to make sure there is no clearance issues and that your intake runners match up -head-to-intake ports. You don't want a mismatch.

You will have to get the correct length pushrods as the .030" cut will change rocker arm geometry. Not a big deal, you just need to get a push rod checking tool, adjust it to the correct length, then order a set the length you will need - or select a length already available if they make one in that length.

Isn't building an engine fun? :yesnod: So many things to think about and even more opinions to confuse you further! LOL


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

*Isn't Engine building fun?*



PontiacJim said:


> Hmmm. Interesting response from Butler. I cannot argue with their opinion as I don't build the number of engines they do and don't have their "real world" experience. However, I reserve the right to disagree for what it's worth.
> 
> First, I am going with what my machinist of 40 plus years suggested on the Cometic gaskets. He builds all types of engines from antique to stock to supercharged. So I went with what he suggested and have to trust him. In searching on the web reading reviews, the reviews like all things are mixed. Some seem to have had issues and would never use them again while others swear by them saying they are the best. From what I did read, once again it is preparation of the head & block surfaces as well as using new head bolts. I am sure a number of the bad reviews come from people who did not do the prep work and just threw them on. They don't seem to be as forgiving as some of the other brands which most of us use. Many of the bad reviews are older posts, like the hyper pistons. Summit has 218 reviews on the gaskets and it just about has a 5 star rating from its customers. That said, like all things in an engine build, it is a matter of opinion and should be taken under the advisement by your engine builder. Felpro of course is tried and true, so it is certainly an excellent choice - I suggested the Cometics only on the basis of trying to get the best Quench area for your engine based on the information you have provided. :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


 Well I believe you on the engine quench. Thats about the only thing that I researched that seemed to have consensus. Everything else is all over the place. I came to the same conclusion on the felpro gaskets are more forgiving. decisions,decisions.Fun fun fun. But I have learned alot. Thanks for your help. Ill be posting on my Adventure.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

RMTZ67 said:


> Well I believe you on the engine quench. Thats about the only thing that I researched that seemed to have consensus. Everything else is all over the place. I came to the same conclusion on the felpro gaskets are more forgiving. decisions,decisions.Fun fun fun. But I have learned alot. Thanks for your help. Ill be posting on my Adventure.


I have been following along with the build of a raffle giveaway engine in the all Pontiac magazine *Poncho Perfection*. Each month a different aspect of the engine build is covered and is being assembled by Darrin Magro at Nightmare Performance ( Nitemare Performance Pontiac Products & Service ).

Here is what he says about *Quench*: "A standard step in Nitemare's rebuild regiment involves _milling the deck surfaces to ensure optimal head gasket sealing_. That milling also reduces chamber volume slightly, which reduces the quench area between the piston and chamber, and obviously increases compression somewhat. In a bit of counter-intuitive logic, increased compression doesn't always lead directly to engine-damaging detonation; in fact, reducing quench tends to increase the burn rate of the air and fuel within the chamber, as long as the mixture remains well distributed throughout the chamber. A faster burn rate preempts detonation and contributes to increased power through greater cylinder pressure and other factors."

Here is what he says about *Cometic *head gaskets," Magro's head gasket of choice is typically a Cometic multi-layer steel gasket because they retain cylinder pressure well and allow for a customer to later add some form of forced induction or nitrous oxide, if they choose, without necessarily needing to worry about head gaskets blowing out. However, for milder engines or ones that won't be subject to power adders, typical composite gaskets are often perfectly acceptable."

A few things to note in the engine build and the use of the Cometic gaskets. Head & deck surfaces have been milled and squared - so no uneven surfaces, ie slightly warped or any low pockets. The engine is using ARP head bolts which have better rolled threads and machining operations and are better and stronger than the factory head bolts which could stretch under load. Preparation & quality head bolts in this case is the key to ensuring that the Cometic gaskets don't fail whereas the typical composite gaskets are more forgiving if things are not quite perfect. So my guess on those who experience a failure with Cometic gaskets, like any other failure of a part, is due to the user not following the manufacturers requirements for its use, and not the actual part itself. :thumbsup:


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Got my machined parts back from the machinist. Wish me luck.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

RMTZ67 said:


> Got my machined parts back from the machinist. Wish me luck.


Just make sure you take the plastic wrap off the heads, otherwise the air flow will be choked off. :yesnod:


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

*Air flow issues.*



PontiacJim said:


> Just make sure you take the plastic wrap off the heads, otherwise the air flow will be choked off. :yesnod:


 Good catch there PontiacJim lol.:smilielol:


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Just a slight difference, Wouldn't you say? Well slowly but surely. I thought I ordered a double roller timing chain. O well just decided to use it since it's been awhile since I ordered it and can't return it. Engine building is nerve racking but it's coming along. I built a few engines before 18 year old. and a few after that but had not crack one open in 30+ years. So having to freshen up my skills big time. just could not afford to have someone else do it. Hoping for the best when I am done.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

RMTZ67 said:


> Just a slight difference, Wouldn't you say? Well slowly but surely. I thought I ordered a double roller timing chain. O well just decided to use it since it's been awhile since I ordered it and can't return it. Engine building is nerve racking but it's coming along. I built a few engines before 18 year old. and a few after that but had not crack one open in 30+ years. So having to freshen up my skills big time. just could not afford to have someone else do it. Hoping for the best when I am done.


What's wrong with the first pic? You just drill a 7/16" hole on the front of the block about 1" from the outside of the chain, and tap it. Then get an idler pulley and bolt it up to the hole you just drilled and tapped. Then stretch the chain way out (not "in" like you have it), and insert the idler pulley and bolt to hold the chain out to remove the slack. The chain will rotate around the idler pulley and you'll be good to go - then you would not have needed that new gear set. Cut a hole in the side of the timing cover to accommodate the idler pulley & chain and then form a piece of aluminum around them and tig weld it all up. :thumbsup:


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

*Idler pulley WT#*

WT#


PontiacJim said:


> What's wrong with the first pic? You just drill a 7/16" hole on the front of the block about 1" from the outside of the chain, and tap it. Then get an idler pulley and bolt it up to the hole you just drilled and tapped. Then stretch the chain way out (not "in" like you have it), and insert the idler pulley and bolt to hold the chain out to remove the slack. The chain will rotate around the idler pulley and you'll be good to go - then you would not have needed that new gear set. Cut a hole in the side of the timing cover to accommodate the idler pulley & chain and then form a piece of aluminum around them and tig weld it all up. :thumbsup:


 Cuban chrome style uh? Seen that show?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

RMTZ67 said:


> WT# Cuban chrome style uh? Seen that show?


No, never saw the show, but to keep a car running that you can't get part for, well.........its called "Yankee Ingenuity."

You may want to read this. Interesting. I typically have used oil and even oil with a little STP which I found recommended on a website once. Like all things, so many opinions on properly lubing up the engine parts/assembly prior to firing it up.

http://www.dickmillerracing.com/images/catalog_2008.pdf

Providing continuous lubrication for moving parts in an internal combustion engine can be a real problem. By nature of its design, the internal combustion engine uses combustion in a confined chamber to drive reciprocating pistons which in turn use leverage to rotate a crankshaft at some relative torque/horsepower value. Because of this reciprocating motion lubricating oils can be squeezed out and cause direct contact between the moving parts and an increase in friction which then leads to wear, more friction, and subsequent failure.

It is not possible to completely eliminate friction between surfaces in motion. The same factors that cause friction contribute to wear between moving solids. This wear and increased friction is initiated by localized bonding due to adhesion between the two surfaces. In adhesive wear, bonding between contacting surfaces eventually results in fracturing of material from one of both of the surfaces. If the bond of one surface is stronger than the bond of the other surface, transfer of material may occur. If surface features are fractured, wear debris is formed which then becomes the separating media and results in more wear from abrasion.

Other than racing engines the majority of bearing wear occurs during initial startup. Turning a crank that has no oil pressure due to setting overnight and then adding the force of that piston’s combustion to the steel reciprocating motion causes premature bearing wear. Racing engines also have an additional problem with increased cylinder pressure and therefore creating a greater load trying to squeeze the oil out between the bearing and crank.

Those of you that have the ability to fine tune an engine that starts at the mere touch of the key, as I used to pride myself on, may not be doing your engine a favor. I used to be dissatisfied with Electronic Fuel Injection cars, that seemed to need to crank for a longer than necessary time before starting, versus faster starting carbureted engines. After giving it some careful thought the engine actually will live longer by not starting immediately therefore giving the engine time to create some oil pressure before combustion as the EFI engines do.

We sell bearings with a dry film lubricant applied to help protect the engine during marginal lubrication periods. Dry film lubricants are solid, naturally lubricating materials permanently bonded to the load bearing surface. Their purpose is to help maintain separation and clearance between two parts in motion and to assist the oil in maintaining its hydrodynamic wedge. The cost is about the price of the bearing itself and certainly worth the additional cost for greatly increasingthe life of your engine bearings and crank.

*TECH TIP*: I personally use dry film lubricant coated Michigan 77 bearings and Lucas Oil assembly lube in all engines I build.

LUC-4 Lucas oil assembly lube eliminates dry starts. Use on bearings, cams, lifters and valve train to help prevent galling and scuffing. Compatible with all oils. Comes in 4 oz size.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

So slowly but surely it's coming back together. A little grade 8 bling for accents and finally got to set my valley pan on and check the fit. Had my engine decked and heads milled so I was concerned about both valley pan and intake fitting properly.valley pan seemed good tho Needed a little adjustment and the intake seemed good. bolts went in without issues so off it went to get vatted. Now I am needing some advice on pushrod length. At zero lash (9) turns in with valve closed it was off slightly. reinked and went one more full turn (10) and this is seems to be better. I am using a new stock pushrod from a set I bought at a swap meet a few years ago. I did verify they were correct for a pontiac. Just a heads up. Its been 25+ years since I cracked one open but after getting quotes I figured it was cheaper to give myself a $3500 refresher course. Or 2 depending how this goes lol. What size push rod would I need? Thanks in advance.One other question. Are oil pan mounting holes vary maybe from 80's pontiacs. because the chrome pan I bought while my block was getting machined is not lining up. I know about the china made aspect, but this is worse than that. lol. Art


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Pushrod length --- the right way to do it is to get a set of lightweight checking springs and a checking tool and measure yourself. You replace the valve springs on a couple valves with these light springs. The checking tool is an adjustable length pushrod. Assemble that stuff with your heads torqued down to spec and everything else on the head just like it's going to be on the real engine, valves adjusted the same. One other difference if you're using a hydraulic cam, you have to measure using a solid lifter, or use a 'spare/trash' hydraulic, remove the innards below the pushrod cup, pack it full of aluminum foil, and reinstall the pushrod cup so that it ACTS like a solid lifter. This is just for determining pushrod length, not to be run in the engine 

Paint the ends of the valves with the checking springs with something that will rub off, like Sharpie or dry erase marker, then rotated that cylinder through a couple full valve cycles. You should be able to see a contact pattern on the end of the valve where the rocker was actuating it. You want this pattern to be as narrow as possible and centered on the valve stem. You 'move' the pattern by changing pushrod length. Shorter pushrods will move the pattern towards the lifters/intake ports, longer pushrods move it the other direction towards the exhaust ports. Lather, rinse, repeat until you get the pattern as near perfect as you can, then order a set of pushrods in whatever length that is.

When I did mine, I used these items:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-4758-2
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-7704-1/overview/

Again one more time - if you're using the stock Pontiac valve train, bottleneck studs, and stock rocker nuts --- they are not adjustable. The nuts are supposed to be torqued down onto the bottleneck on the studs.

Bear

Bear


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> Pushrod length --- the right way to do it is to get a set of lightweight checking springs and a checking tool and measure yourself. You replace the valve springs on a couple valves with these light springs. The checking tool is an adjustable length pushrod. Assemble that stuff with your heads torqued down to spec and everything else on the head just like it's going to be on the real engine, valves adjusted the same. One other difference if you're using a hydraulic cam, you have to measure using a solid lifter, or use a 'spare/trash' hydraulic, remove the innards below the pushrod cup, pack it full of aluminum foil, and reinstall the pushrod cup so that it ACTS like a solid lifter. This is just for determining pushrod length, not to be run in the engine
> 
> Paint the ends of the valves with the checking springs with something that will rub off, like Sharpie or dry erase marker, then rotated that cylinder through a couple full valve cycles. You should be able to see a contact pattern on the end of the valve where the rocker was actuating it. You want this pattern to be as narrow as possible and centered on the valve stem. You 'move' the pattern by changing pushrod length. Shorter pushrods will move the pattern towards the lifters/intake ports, longer pushrods move it the other direction towards the exhaust ports. Lather, rinse, repeat until you get the pattern as near perfect as you can, then order a set of pushrods in whatever length that is.
> 
> ...


 Forgot to mention I installed 7/16 studs with poly locks. Flat tappet cam. Do I just use one spring and try it on a couple areas? And am I correct in setting it with valves closed? Are you able to answer my oil pan question? Thanks


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

There are many videos of how to do it. All pushrod engines are measured in the pretty much the same way.

Here's one





If the oil pan you have isn't fitting to the block, I'm betting that it's not the block that is off 

Very common with aftermarket parts. Some are better than others, very few are actually perfect.

Bear


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

So I finally got some time to try and determine my pushrod length. I installed light spring and am using a home made solid lifter. I cannot achieve a narrow line across my valves. I am assuming because I don't have roller rockers??? Here are some pics with my valve open and closed.Any thoughts?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

RMTZ67 said:


> So I finally got some time to try and determine my pushrod length. I installed light spring and am using a home made solid lifter. I cannot achieve a narrow line across my valves. I am assuming because I don't have roller rockers??? Here are some pics with my valve open and closed.Any thoughts?


That's a pretty wide pattern alright... just to double check, you're using an adjustable length pushrod, right?

Try lengthening the pushrod a little so that the contact point with the valve closed is nearer to the center of the valve and see how that changes things.

Bear


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> That's a pretty wide pattern alright... just to double check, you're using an adjustable length pushrod, right?
> 
> Try lengthening the pushrod a little so that the contact point with the valve closed is nearer to the center of the valve and see how that changes things.
> 
> Bear


 Yes on the adjustable. This is the current difference in length from stock. Still think I should lengthen it?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

RMTZ67 said:


> Yes on the adjustable. This is the current difference in length from stock. Still think I should lengthen it?


Sure, what could it hurt? I'd probably start with the stock length and go longer from there... just to see what happens. If you're able to "eyeball" what exactly 1/2 of max valve lift is, a good starting point would be whatever length makes the long centerline of the rocker arm (viewed from the side) form a perfect 90 degree angle to the valve.

Or... check it with the stock pushrod and see what that pattern looks like, then make changes from that point to move the pattern.

Bear


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Gonna put on my oil pan and read a handful of tips and tricks on oil pan install. my aftermarket oil pan has three slots for the rubber one. I was gonna put some quick dry jb weld in the slots then smooth it out and alter it for the five prong rubber one. I used a light abrasive wheel on the oil pan gasket area to give the gasket something to grab onto. Hope it works. QUESTION: Would I use any rtv of some sort on the pan side? If so what kind?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I like this stuff:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000QIR5OA/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

You need one of these guns (or similar) to apply it (it's much easier than trying to squeeze something out of a tube)
https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-800...id=1542040366&sr=1-2&keywords=right+stuff+gun

When you cut the tip off the tube, save the tip and use it later to stick inverted into the opening to seal it off for later use.

On my last build I used one of the BOP 1-piece pan gaskets. They're really well made with rubber on both sides of a steel core. The core keeps the gasket material from squeezing out. They look like they should seal dry, but being cautious I used some of the above sealant on one side of the gasket, and on both sides in the "corners" near the rear main cap and the timing cover. The trick is to apply the sealant, then install the pan with all the bolts just barely started and loose - just tight enough so that the sealant is barely touching both surfaces with no air gaps. Let it sit like that for about an hour to start curing and firming up some, then tighten the fasteners down the rest of the way.

By the way, what length pushrod did you settle on and have you ordered them yet? I have a brand new never run spare set for my engine that are the wrong length and if they turn out to be what you need, I'll make you a deal on them. They're from Manton.

Bear


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

*RTV sealant*



BearGFR said:


> I like this stuff:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000QIR5OA/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> ...


 After reading up some more on sealants I did end up buying ac delco brand. But it came in a tube. I would have like that set up you posted with the smaller caulking type gun. I may still order one and keep it for possible gasket changes. So first measurement on my push rods was 9.070 and got a second at 9.73 I did end up buying the 9.100 from butler which they recommended. The smith brothers brand. What size are the ones you have?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Too bad. If 9.050's or 9.100's are right for your engine, then what I have would be way too long at 9.450.

Bear


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Well here I am five months later and almost done with my rebuild. I looks good just hoping it runs as good as it looks. If you have read my post I was just planning on put replacing my cam cause it was worn. everything else seem good. then I check the rod bearings and that's where it all started. You can see some of my other posts asking for parts info and advice. I installed KB hypereutectic pistons a 068 cam stock type rockers. This was a low budget build seeing this is a in town cruiser and the occasional romp. amazingly This was the engines first bore to 0.30. I lowered my compression to around 9.6 so I can run pump gas w/o issues. next on the list while winter is upon us and I have the engine out I would like to install 4 wheel disc brakes.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Looks great!!!, i would get it in and started before spring so you can have it idle ready to shake down on the road as soon as the weather breaks. That way you won't spend the driving season wrenching on it again. Always some kinks on install it seems. Make sure to replace the mounts (8 years old looked good and didnt notice the delamination until the day before i was planning on dropping it in) torque from these motors will tear the rubber isolator away from the metal mount. I had ordered two sets to try and get one in ASAP when dropping mine and both were made in China. The ones from Aims seemed to be better quality rubber to metal bond. Also beeware of headers , i like the RA reproduction manifolds at 2.5 " for ease of install and they flow close to a header until you get above 500HP. 

Disc brakes are a great (safe) upgrade, bringing a 400+ HP 3600lb car down quickly from speed with drums is a white knuckle ride. On my 66' with just the front discs and proportioning valve stop it on a dime. Unless you have a "numbers matching" car it's a must as far as i'm concerned. Some also like to do the power steering box with a little different ratio for handling.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

RMTZ67 said:


> Well here I am five months later and almost done with my rebuild. I looks good just hoping it runs as good as it looks. If you have read my post I was just planning on put replacing my cam cause it was worn. everything else seem good. then I check the rod bearings and that's where it all started. You can see some of my other posts asking for parts info and advice. I installed KB hypereutectic pistons a 068 cam stock type rockers. This was a low budget build seeing this is a in town cruiser and the occasional romp. amazingly This was the engines first bore to 0.30. I lowered my compression to around 9.6 so I can run pump gas w/o issues. next on the list while winter is upon us and I have the engine out I would like to install 4 wheel disc brakes.


The low budget stock type .030" overbore overhaul I did on my '67 GTO's original engine is still running strong, 30 years and 90,000 miles later. 9.3 CR (87cc 1970 455 heads) and 068 cam. Runs very well with decent power, great economy, and great reliability. I did pull it to re-seal it about 7 years ago, and it's still bone dry. I checked the cam, bearings, etc. at the time (80,000+ miles on the rebuild) and they still looked like new. While stock-ish rebuilds aren't the most exiting in the world, I've found them to be very, very reliable. My GTO is closing in on 253,000 miles and is driven regularly.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

*RA manifolds*



Instg8ter said:


> Looks great!!!, i would get it in and started before spring so you can have it idle ready to shake down on the road as soon as the weather breaks. That way you won't spend the driving season wrenching on it again. Always some kinks on install it seems. Make sure to replace the mounts (8 years old looked good and didnt notice the delamination until the day before i was planning on dropping it in) torque from these motors will tear the rubber isolator away from the metal mount. I had ordered two sets to try and get one in ASAP when dropping mine and both were made in China. The ones from Aims seemed to be better quality rubber to metal bond. Also beeware of headers , i like the RA reproduction manifolds at 2.5 " for ease of install and they flow close to a header until you get above 500HP.
> 
> Disc brakes are a great (safe) upgrade, bringing a 400+ HP 3600lb car down quickly from speed with drums is a white knuckle ride. On my 66' with just the front discs and proportioning valve stop it on a dime. Unless you have a "numbers matching" car it's a must as far as i'm concerned. Some also like to do the power steering box with a little different ratio for handling.


I agree on the new motor mounts. I need to replace my transmission mount as well.Do you have RA manifolds? or could you or someone recommend a supplier? and I changed my steering box a few years back so that's good to go. hope to have it up and running by feb/march.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I like Ram Air Restoration as a source for manifolds. Great quality.

Nice looking engine!

Bear


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Wanted to get some break in oil to spin my pump while its on the stand and make sure everything is getting oil before dropping in my dizzy. looking at joe gibbs break in oil. would 10/50 be okay? or 5/30 better ?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

RMTZ67 said:


> Wanted to get some break in oil to spin my pump while its on the stand and make sure everything is getting oil before dropping in my dizzy. looking at joe gibbs break in oil. would 10/50 be okay? or 5/30 better ?


5W-30 would be my recommendation and what I would use. 

The 10W-50 in my opinion might be over doing it unless big bearing clearances.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

PontiacJim said:


> No, never saw the show, but to keep a car running that you can't get part for, well.........its called "Yankee Ingenuity."
> 
> You may want to read this. Interesting. I typically have used oil and even oil with a little STP which I found recommended on a website once. Like all things, so many opinions on properly lubing up the engine parts/assembly prior to firing it up.
> 
> ...


 I did use the lucas assembly lube. What do you think about adding a small bottle to the break in oil and after? Is that what the article is getting at?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

RMTZ67 said:


> I did use the lucas assembly lube. What do you think about adding a small bottle to the break in oil and after? Is that what the article is getting at?


The article just points out that it is the initial start-ups of an engine that can cause wear to the bearings because they can become dry. It points out that it is a little better to allow the engine to turn over a few cranks to get the oil pump pushing oil to the bearings prior to the engine catching versus an engine that fires up immediately at a touch of the key.

Now my personal take is that you may lose some of the oil film over a short time IF you had a race engine (drag or road race) and the bearings have larger clearances which are needed for higher RPM operation. I don't believe this is the case for most street engines or your everyday car. Oil clings, so there is still a film layer. Now if the engine perhaps sits for long periods, it may be a good idea to either prime or spin it over a few times to get oil pressure and/or fresh oil to the bearings prior to firing it up. BUT, what about the rest of the engine, right? And, how much wear are you talking about? So I take this point made with a grain of salt.

Getting oil to the bearings and other parts of the engine is the selling point of the Accusump https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/accusump It can be used to pre-oil the engine before start-up or can be used while driving/racing and will push oil at pressure should your oil pump take in a slug of air because the oil sloshed away from the pick-up during a hard turn, acceleration, or braking. So even though the previous paragraph points out wear to the engine bearings at start-up, there are other situations that can also starve bearings of oil. A deeper oil pan and/or baffles in the pan are a good way to keep oil in the pan from sloshing out enough to uncover the oil pick-up and cause oil starvation.

Back to your question. I would not put any additional additives in the oil. The Joe Gibb, Brad Penn, and other break-in oils have the correct additives for break it. You don't want to make the oil too slippery or parts will not seat correctly and why synthetic oil is not recommended for a break-in oil. You need some metal-to-metal contact to wear corresponding parts together so they wear evenly and correctly.

I would also not put any additives in after break-in for the same reason above. Run the Joe Gibb or Bradd Penn oil that you want to run and follow the oil changing intervals recommended for a new engine. You can switch to a synthetic after you get some miles on the engine and things are broken in and "lapped" together. I have never used a synthetic, but only have the info I have read off the internet like most of us. For the amount of miles the car is driven each year, the conventional oils seems just fine to me.

So if you prime your engine to check for flow, I would have it ready to be fired up shortly after. Make sure you rotate the crank 360 degrees while priming, 90 degrees at a time, to get oil to all parts of the engine. Prime until you see oil at the pushrods/rockers, then rotate 90 degrees and repeat.

But, no sense in priming the oil and then letting it sit just because you wanted to see the oil flow. I would have it ready to go, less the intake/distributor, do your test, then install the intake/distributor and get everything hooked up, filled up, and ready to fire-up. You might want to pull the coil wire and spin the engine one last time to freshly prime the oil and then put the coil wire back in and fire it up and follow your break-in procedure.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Sold my never used 3 tube headers and purchased ram air manifolds. Question is. Can I still use the remflex header gaskets I purchased for my headers? I also purchased 4 wheel disc brakes kit that I will be installing before my motor goes in. I am guessing at this point that the rear axles will have to come out. Is there a affordable and simple, If there such a thing to make my 3:55 a posi?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

RMTZ67 said:


> Sold my never used 3 tube headers and purchased ram air manifolds. Question is. Can I still use the remflex header gaskets I purchased for my headers? I also purchased 4 wheel disc brakes kit that I will be installing before my motor goes in. I am guessing at this point that the rear axles will have to come out. Is there a affordable and simple, If there such a thing to make my 3:55 a posi?


Not sure on the header gaskets. Just match them up with the RA manifolds to see if they will work and go from there.

You may not need to pull the rear axles, but at this time, why not install new axle bearings anyway?

You can add a posi unit yourself without disassembling the rear-end. This is what I installed in my Ford 9", but I did have to have my gears set-up as everything is new and I don't have the tools or experience to set-up the gears. I did assemble and install this locker into the gear carrier. PowerTrax Lock Right Locker https://www.powertrax.com/product-info/lock-right-locker-traction-system/

You will have to pull the axles and then the spider gears. This will replace the spider gears that your axles go in to. Here is an older article on installation: Powertrax No-Slip Traction System - Super Chevy Magazine

Like all things, you can do a search and find guys who love it or hate it. Biggest complaint is the clicking/ratcheting sound you may get when the unit slips to compensate for turns as one wheel rotates faster than the other. It may also be a little more sensitive to locking up under power versus the typical clutch type posi traction units, so it might be easier to have it go sideways on you in a turn.

I have not tried mine out as my car is still in the "build" stage. If the rear end has never been rebuilt, as old as it is, I would consider going through it with all new bearings and seals and let a shop do the work.


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## Shooter (Nov 7, 2015)

RMTZ67,
A few years ago the folks at Kauffman Racing (fantastically GREAT guys!) steered me towards KB 891 dished pistons. I used a Comp Cam part number CL51-224-4 along with 995 valve springs. I also bought the valve train from them.

I was shooting for a 9.5:1 CR so I could run pump gas and to stay at 335 hp. Everything I can find tells me this will work.

Shooter


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## Shooter (Nov 7, 2015)

Wow, when I just checked the forum the first 2 pages of this thread showed up so I added my two cents. I refreshed my screen and got the next several pages. My post is definitely OBEed. You've progressed way past what I offered! I thought you were still considering what pistons and and valve train to use. Please disregard my input!

Shooter


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

So engine is complete. Bought my ram air manifold$. Just need to finish up installation of my 4 wheel disk brakes so I can get my engine installed. One down three to go. Maybe there will be a 5-6 speed and and a posi with highway gears in its future.But first things first, get disk brakes and engine installed. Install new 2.5 magnaflow exhaust and make sure my engine is free of gremlins and or major headaches.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

So I finally got my 4 wheel disk brakes installed. Managing all the brake line changes was tougher than installing the brakes lol. Anyway,I was curious if there is a way to to test the brake system for leaks without engine vacuum? my engine is still out but will be going in soon.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

RMTZ67 said:


> So I finally got my 4 wheel disk brakes installed. Managing all the brake line changes was tougher than installing the brakes lol. Anyway,I was curious if there is a way to to test the brake system for leaks without engine vacuum? my engine is still out but will be going in soon.


Sure! Engine vacuum provides the "assist" for your power brake booster, but it's not strictly required for your brakes to operate. The only difference is that pedal effort will be very high. As long as everything is together and bled properly, you should be able to test without the booster.

Bear


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> Sure! Engine vacuum provides the "assist" for your power brake booster, but it's not strictly required for your brakes to operate. The only difference is that pedal effort will be very high. As long as everything is together and bled properly, you should be able to test without the booster.
> 
> Bear


 Thanks Bear. That's what I was hoping for. Just want to make sure all my flares are up to snuff. Master cylinder is bench bled, so I will try and bleed the brakes as best as possible without the vacuum assist and check for leaks.


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## cij911 (Oct 25, 2017)

RMTZ67 said:


> So engine is complete. Bought my ram air manifold$. Just need to finish up installation of my 4 wheel disk brakes so I can get my engine installed. One down three to go. Maybe there will be a 5-6 speed and and a posi with highway gears in its future.But first things first, get disk brakes and engine installed. Install new 2.5 magnaflow exhaust and make sure my engine is free of gremlins and or major headaches.


Engine bay looks great....Take it from me, spray the master cylinder with a high temp clear, otherwise it will rust in a few months......I did not do that and now have to sand off the rust and spray with clear ....

By the way, what type of flooring do you have in the garage ? It looks like carpet?


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

cij911 said:


> Engine bay looks great....Take it from me, spray the master cylinder with a high temp clear, otherwise it will rust in a few months......I did not do that and now have to sand off the rust and spray with clear ....
> 
> By the way, what type of flooring do you have in the garage ? It looks like carpet?


 Thanks for the heads up on the master cylinder. I masked of the rotors and sprayed the piece around the lug nuts. Had not thought of doing the master, but will do it today before I forget. And yes that is carpet. They are left over carpet squares I collect from work until I have enough to do my garage. They are quick release glued down rubber back Carpet, and can be swapped out. For the past ten years there was only minor mechanical work done in the garage. I pulled motor and tranny in the driveway and use cardboard etc if I need to do any type of work that would stain it. vacuum shampoo on occasion.:lol:


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

So I am installing the majority of magnaflow exhaust system while I wait for a new flywheel and balancer and then the engine. Question is, on the rear of the x pipe do I put the turn downs like I have them or should they turn up? Also, I am sure I will figure it out later when I get my engine in, but would these pipes be installed the way I set them out or reversed? One is shorter where they attach to the manifold. They will go on ram air manifolds. Unfortunately I disposed of my beat up exhaust prematurely.

So did a little more digging and seems they turn up instead of slightly down. I will post some pics later so you can see the difference.


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

RMTZ67 said:


> So I am installing the majority of magnaflow exhaust system while I wait for a new flywheel and balancer and then the engine. Question is, on the rear of the x pipe do I put the turn downs like I have them or should they turn up? Also, I am sure I will figure it out later when I get my engine in, but would these pipes be installed the way I set them out or reversed? One is shorter where they attach to the manifold. They will go on ram air manifolds. Unfortunately I disposed of my beat up exhaust prematurely.
> 
> So did a little more digging and seems they turn up instead of slightly down. I will post some pics later so you can see the difference.


Did you go with the ram air restoration manifolds 2.5? If so I would make sure you use his down pipe well worth the money and gets it all tucked up tight .all mendrell bent and keeps it up and tight. Doug


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Got my engine installed over the weekend and am wondering. Should I go ahead and fill my block before I install my thermostat? Also should I leave the thermostat out for break in purposes? I have a 160 and a 180/185? which one if any? I do plan on drilling a few 1/8 hole in the one I will use. Should I use 50/50 coolant or just distilled water? Everything seems so complicated since the old days.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Did my engine breakin today. All seemed to go well except for it overheating. Then murphy's law kicked in and my temp gun took a dump. I installed new gauges but the temp and fuel were not functioning for whatever reason.So I did it in three 10m sessions. Tried to start early but by the time I got it primed and dropped the dizzy and connected all the wire it was already warm out. So pulled out a fan and a hose to cool the radiator. Man was a stressful adventure. Anyway, after changing the oil that was enough fun for one day. BUT I do have a question. Seems my ramair exhaust to downpipe is leaking. Anyone know of a fix? They don't use gaskets correct?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Thermostat choice is on you. I like the 160, but others will suggest the 180 or even 195. Drilling the hole in it is the way to go which ever you select.

The engine may run a little hot when new. The external fan/water hose can be a good idea as you can use the extra cooling since the car is sitting and no air is flowing over the radiator. However, it could also be your timing is off. Make sure the timing is not retarded too much which will also throw additional heat into the engine that you don't want - so know what your initial timing is. 

My machinist has an engine stand he breaks his engines in. He likes to run them up to temp and run for 20 minutes and shut them down to "heat cycle" them. He does this 3 times. I have read there is no advantage to doing this, but if it works for him, it cannot be bad. I know this is done/recommended with new rear end gears to get them broken in by putting the rear end up off the ground and allowing the wheels to spin while the transmission is in gear and engine simply idling. May also be a good idea for a new manual transmission as well.

The exhaust leak may be due to a poorly formed flange on your down pipes. It may also be to the expansion of the new parts. You may want to go back and try to tighten them up again after heat cycling them. If me, I might try a coating of muffler cement on the RA manifold ends and them put my pipes up and tighten. Might just be enough to create a leak proof seal. But, it may also mean you need better contoured pipes to fit up against the RA manifolds.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

PontiacJim said:


> Thermostat choice is on you. I like the 160, but others will suggest the 180 or even 195. Drilling the hole in it is the way to go which ever you select.
> 
> The engine may run a little hot when new. The external fan/water hose can be a good idea as you can use the extra cooling since the car is sitting and no air is flowing over the radiator. However, it could also be your timing is off. Make sure the timing is not retarded too much which will also throw additional heat into the engine that you don't want - so know what your initial timing is.
> 
> ...


 ya, copy on the 160 thermostat. That's what I installed and seem to open up quickly while I had the cap of so it could burp itself if necessary. The flanges on the downpipes did not seemed to be formed too well in the upper area that mates with the manifold. They were from pypes. They were mandrel bent. I bought the ceramic coated manifolds from RA. With that expense I got cheap on the pipes. RA were double the price. I am going to recheck the base and initial timing this weekend, then put the car on stands and listen to the exhaust a little more carefully. I redid the whole exhaust so it could be at the next joint. Currently has clamps only.Maybe I can find some high temp putty if its the downpipes.Only leaks in the driveway were from the rear end. Tighten those bolts a bit more and see what happens.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

PontiacJim said:


> Thermostat choice is on you. I like the 160, but others will suggest the 180 or even 195. Drilling the hole in it is the way to go which ever you select.
> 
> The engine may run a little hot when new. The external fan/water hose can be a good idea as you can use the extra cooling since the car is sitting and no air is flowing over the radiator. However, it could also be your timing is off. Make sure the timing is not retarded too much which will also throw additional heat into the engine that you don't want - so know what your initial timing is.
> 
> ...


 Found the source of the exhaust leak. Its the intake manifold on the passengers side near the choke spring. I wonder why:suspicious:. Still, if thats my only problem so far, seems simple enough.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

RMTZ67 said:


> Found the source of the exhaust leak. Its the intake manifold on the passengers side near the choke spring. I wonder why:suspicious:. Still, if thats my only problem so far, seems simple enough.


Mis-match in the exhaust crossover - intake used versus heads used? Or just a flat out leak at the exhaust crossover to head - bad gasket or not torqued down?


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

So after finding the source of my exhaust leak,I got to work removing the intake and replacing the gaskets. This is what I found. The existing gasket was probably not the correct one. sufficient for one side but lacking material when reversed for the other.If you look closely you will see the gap above the gasket.The new Felpro ms 9980 gaskets are the correct ones for my application. I installed them today and all is well. I will be installing the hood and take it for a ride and seat the rings and new disc brake pads.


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