# Gas Gas! Does anyone use 87???



## joeyk97 (Dec 16, 2006)

Gas is crazy high and I was curious does anyone ever use 87 or 89 rathe then premioum? I actually pumped in 87 couple days ago just to see how it goes and I hope nothign is going to happen to the goat!


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## Devils3023 (May 21, 2007)

I've never used 87 gas before, always 91 or higher octane. Now that I have it programmed w/ the superchips handheld I have no choice but to use 91 octane or higher. I think you will just have reduced performance if you put in 87 since it retards the engine timing to prevent knocking. I'm sure someone else will chime in here on the matter.


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## TexasRealtor (Oct 4, 2004)

From what I understand, it depends how it is phrased in the owners manual. "Premium Recommended" means that you can safely use 87 with just reduced peformance. If it says "Premium Required", then you may risk engine damage as in a turbo charged car. just my .02


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## ricekiller848 (Oct 24, 2007)

Speaking of gas prices. In wis. it went down .30 Cents here. So now its only 3.69 avarage. Anyone else gas go down?


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

This is out of the Get to know your GTO literature that came with the car.

Premium unleaded fuel with an octane
rating of 91 or higher is recommended
for best performance. Using regular or
middle-grade fuel of 87 octane or higher
is permissible, but the vehicle’s acceleration
may be slightly reduced. If fuel
with an octane rating of less than 87 is
used, you may hear a heavy knocking
noise that can damage your engine. In
this instance, you should fill the fuel tank
with higher-octane fuel as soon as
possible.
After fueling, ensure that the gas cap
is installed correctly and tightly. If it
is loose or missing, the malfunction
indicator lamp will light steadily. If a
loose gas cap is the cause, a few
driving trips after properly tightening
the gas cap should cause the light to
go out. If the light remains on, have
the vehicle serviced.
See Section 5 of your Owner Manual.


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## alsgto04 (Nov 21, 2007)

Im in the Chicago area close to the Indiana border and i go to Whiting and there its 3.69 regular so that makes it 3.89 premium. I have always put premium, i dont know im just scared of putting anything else.


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## Aramz06 (Mar 2, 2008)

I noticed something going through my pictures. I took this picture on 05/29/08 by my cellphone.






















This was when I though gas prices are ridiculous. After that picture, within about a month the Price for 91 skyrocketed to $5.19 at that same gas station. Today.... that gas station reads $4.49 for 91. HmmMm... Remind you of stocks? :willy:


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## abright52 (Dec 17, 2006)

Why buy a performance car if you aren't going to spend the extra 10-20 cents for the right fuel? It only costs an extra couple bucks per fill-up.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

:agree
I would never consider filling up with reg.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

abright52 said:


> Why buy a performance car if you aren't going to spend the extra 10-20 cents for the right fuel? It only costs an extra couple bucks per fill-up.


:agree I suggest you sit down and do some math and see how much you'll save. You may or may not get the best fuel economy with lower octane. So you may be spending the same amount of money anyway.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Rukee said:


> :agree
> I would never consider filling up with reg.



:agree


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## UdnUdnGTO (Jan 30, 2006)

I disagree. The computer is designed to run on 87 octane if needed. In this time of gas prices I have filled up with 87 octane many times with no ill effects except lower power and gas mileage. Now here is the crunch point. The gas mileage can differ as much as 15%, if that is so, it is not cost effective to run 87 octane if it only 20 cents more. Cost wise it is a bit more if the difference between regular and premium runs more than 30 cents. In a fill up though the actual difference nets around $4.00 more. If you are counting costs or fill up as often as I do, that $4.00 can make a difference. If not, don't worry about it.
I am glad that the LS 2 engine has that kind of versatility. GTO, a great car and even better investment.

By the way, GTO Judge, got any buyers yet? The other day I was in a local stealership looking at the new Challenger, there were definitely some fellas with no brain pan looking at that car, $25,000 over MSRP. They might be good candidates for your GTO.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

UdnUdnGTO said:


> By the way, GTO Judge, got any buyers yet? The other day I was in a local stealership looking at the new Challenger, there were definitely some fellas with no brain pan looking at that car, $25,000 over MSRP. They might be good candidates for your GTO.


LOL......No suckers, I mean buyers yet. It seems people want the SAP without the car. I just don't get it, the car is FREE. Take the SAP with the car attached, strip the SAP off then sell the car, make a tidy profit. Through careful calculations taking into account how long the car has been offered for sale, accrued appreciation of the SAP, interest on the accrued appreciation of SAP, the extended break in time that I have been monitoring to assure the potential buyer the SAP is firmly, and securely attached, the clear bra I put on the SAP to further safe guard the durability, the new asking price is 150K. 

Now before anyone laughs, or thinks I am out of line with my asking price, the complete SAP on my car was offered about a year ago when SAP parts were ONLY merely 100-200% over dealer list.....MY SAP asking price started at 80K. I gave everyone a chance to take the SAP at that time for my asking price and I was going to throw the car in for FREE, and as an added incentive, I was going to throw in all the little goodies I have acquired for the car that are still new in boxes. I had no takers. I warned everyone if the SAP can not be moved in an alloted time frame I would be forced to increase the price to allow for inflation. Well, I had no choice. I had no interested parties, so I was forced to up the liquidation price of my SAP. I am still using the Barrett Jackson sliding rule collector car appreciation calculator to make sure I don't let the SAP with the car attached go for too low a price. I don't want to rip myself off. I think this low mileage SAP with a car already attached is well worth the price. 

With dealers marking hot new cars up customers standing in line, pants pulled down to their ankles, bent over a golden rail spread eagle just waiting for the dealer to insert their markup inside their holy grail as they eagerly anticipate their "sodomization," I can only hope to find just one person with an empty cranium eager enough to show me da money.


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## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

gm4life said:


> I suggest you sit down and do some math and see how much you'll save. You may or may not get the best fuel economy with lower octane. So you may be spending the same amount of money anyway.


The 1st time I experimented with a partial tank of mid grade fuel (25% 89 octane to 75% 93 octane), I saw a slight bump in MPG... the next time I tried the experiment with a 50/50 ratio, I saw a big drop in MPG... The 3rd and last time was no different from the 2nd after filling with the same ratios as the 1st. More 93 to 89 but a noticeable drop in MPG. I didn't feel any drop in around town on the street performance.

My conclusion, its a waste of time and money to play that game. 

I can also say, after refueling and resetting all the trip computer display features based on the previous tank of gas, within a few miles the computer's avg MPG reading can show you the quality of fuel just pumped vrs what you recently burned. 

If done consistently, you'll know when you got a tank full of less then advertised octane....


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

gm4life said:


> :agree I suggest you sit down and do some math and see how much you'll save. You may or may not get the best fuel economy with lower octane. So you may be spending the same amount of money anyway.


Here's the math for everyone. 

If you drive 15,000 miles per year that breaks down to 1250 miles per month. If you average 19mpg between city and hwy combined you use 65.78 gallons per month. We'll round it to 66 gallons. 

In most places the price of premium is 20 cents higher than regular. Your total extra cost per month is $13.20 per month. If your difference is 30 cents between regular and premium it's $19.80 per month. 

There is the chance your mileage will suffer, but even if it doesn't is it worth it??? My opinion is if you spend the money to buy a premium performance car you should spend the extra 15 or 20 bucks per month to feed it with the fuel that is the correct fuel for the vehicle. 

If your fuel economy drops by 5% by using regular, that means you are using 69.25 gallons per month. The extra 3.5 gallons costs $12.95 at 3.70 per gallon. So how much did you really save now??? That' with just a 5% drop in fuel economy. 

In my opinion it just isn't worth it to use regular. They designed the motor to perform at peak efficiency with premium.


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## Gotagoat (Jan 6, 2006)

Just as important as grade, maybe more so, is the content of ethanol. Just read an article about ethanol damaging engines -- especially small and marine engines. Since I also have a motorcycle and outboard, I'm now concerned about which brands use the least or, better, no ethanol. From what little info I've found, premium fuel may not contain ethanol. But like everything you read on the net, you've got to add the grain of salt. Anyone know of any definitive information on the subject?


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Gotagoat said:


> Just as important as grade, maybe more so, is the content of ethanol. Just read an article about ethanol damaging engines -- especially small and marine engines. Since I also have a motorcycle and outboard, I'm now concerned about which brands use the least or, better, no ethanol. From what little info I've found, premium fuel may not contain ethanol. But like everything you read on the net, you've got to add the grain of salt. Anyone know of any definitive information on the subject?


The maximum content of etanol is regulated by the federal government and each individual state government has regulations too. The federal cap is 15% ethanol. Some states have set the cap at 10% and most car manufacturers suggest 10% as a cap. All pumps have a label saying may contain up to X% ethanol. Here in Florida it is 10% and they just started adding it this summer. 

All motor vehicles built after a certain date ( I think it's 1991 or 1992) must be able to run on at least 15% ethanol enhanced fuel. Most small motor manufacturers followed and made their motors able to run on up to 15% ethanol. 

There is a product labeled E85 that is 85% ethanol. By law it has to be labeled as E85 and can't be dispensed from a pump also dispensing regular gas. It can only be run in certain cars that are designed to run on E85. 

Premium, Midgrade and Regular all have the same amount of ethanol usually. If anything premium would have more since ethanol is a higher octane and that would be a cheap way to increase octane.


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## UdnUdnGTO (Jan 30, 2006)

fergyflyer said:


> The maximum content of etanol is regulated by the federal government and each individual state government has regulations too. The federal cap is 15% ethanol. Some states have set the cap at 10% and most car manufacturers suggest 10% as a cap. All pumps have a label saying may contain up to X% ethanol. Here in Florida it is 10% and they just started adding it this summer.
> 
> All motor vehicles built after a certain date ( I think it's 1991 or 1992) must be able to run on at least 15% ethanol enhanced fuel. Most small motor manufacturers followed and made their motors able to run on up to 15% ethanol.
> 
> ...


Man I wish could find the article that stated that the old octane booster in gasoline fell into EPA disfavor and some companies were using ethanol as a means of increasing octane numbers. Accordingly, they do not have to label it. Anyone else heard or read about this?


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

joeyk97 said:


> Gas is crazy high and I was curious does anyone ever use 87 or 89 rathe then premioum? I actually pumped in 87 couple days ago just to see how it goes and I hope nothign is going to happen to the goat!




Never run low octane gas on your GOAT. You need 91 octane or higher at all times. 
We all know the price of gas is crazy but the difference in 10 Gallons of 87 compared to 10 gallons of 91 octane will only be about $3.00 

87 octane $4.00 per gallon
91 Octane $4.30 per gallon


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## UdnUdnGTO (Jan 30, 2006)

LOWET said:


> Never run low octane gas on your GOAT. You need 91 octane of higher at all times.
> We all know the price of gas is crazy but the difference in 10 Gallons of 87 compared to 10 gallons of 91 octane will only be about $3.00
> 
> 87 octane $4.00 per gallon
> 91 Octane $4.30 per gallon


Lowet, have you read your auto manual? It states that it is quite acceptable to burn 87 octane, unless you have been tuned, or made modifications with a tuning.


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

UdnUdnGTO said:


> Lowet, have you read your auto manual? It states that it is quite acceptable to burn 87 octane, unless you have been tuned, or made modifications with a tuning.


Yes. I have read it , You can use 87 octane but it is not really a good idea. but like it says on the fuel door. Premium Fuel . They also claim I can go 6000 miles on each oil change. Because it is ok does not mean I will. 
What I am saying is that a GTO engine is just like a professional athlete. They both need quality food to be able to do their jobs correctly.


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

Red Bearded Goat said:


> The 1st time I experimented with a partial tank of mid grade fuel (25% 89 octane to 75% 93 octane), I saw a slight bump in MPG... the next time I tried the experiment with a 50/50 ratio, I saw a big drop in MPG... The 3rd and last time was no different from the 2nd after filling with the same ratios as the 1st. More 93 to 89 but a noticeable drop in MPG. I didn't feel any drop in around town on the street performance.
> 
> My conclusion, its a waste of time and money to play that game.
> 
> ...


I am not sure about other states but here in Connecticut all gas pumps have a sticker on them saying Actual Octane is + or - 2 percent of advertised rate. You can bet your life it is on the lower side . A high performance engine should be feed a diet of higher Octane Food. Also in Connecticut all gas has a mixture of 10 % ethanol. More of a reason to stay away from the lower grade


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## maxcm96 (Nov 21, 2007)

*Tune*

Andrew over on the other website came up with an 87 octane tune for our cars. I would never use it but I will be using the lean cruise function on the 04.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

LOWET said:


> but like it says on the fuel door. Premium Fuel


Fuel door says "Premium Fuel Recommended" it does not say Required.


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

gm4life said:


> Fuel door says "Premium Fuel Recommended" it does not say Required.


Why use a less quality item then what they recommend. Would you use a cheap grade low quality oil in your car. I would only use 87 for a lawn mower . With + or - 2 % on all gas pumps you might be putting 86 octane in your car. If someone wants to run low grade octane in their car , that is their choice. FOR ME, on a GTO. Never lower then 91. In stock or in modded trim. Why purchase a performance car and feed it a diet of junk food.

Just my 2 cents


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Like mentioned, at a $0.15/gal difference you`re only talking like a $3.00 increase with premium per tank, for 3 bucks why would you risk it, or forfeit ANY performance?


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

Rukee said:


> Like mentioned, at a $0.15/gal difference you`re only talking like a $3.00 increase with premium per tank, for 3 bucks why would you risk it, or forfeit ANY performance?


Nice picture Rukee. I had a 64 GOAT . Purchased new in 1964. Blew the motor around 1966 and installed a 421 . GONE BUT NOT FORGOTTEN


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

LOWET said:


> Why use a less quality item then what they recommend. Would you use a cheap grade low quality oil in your car. I would only use 87 for a lawn mower . With + or - 2 % on all gas pumps you might be putting 86 octane in your car. If someone wants to run low grade octane in their car , that is their choice. FOR ME, on a GTO. Never lower then 91. In stock or in modded trim. Why purchase a performance car and feed it a diet of junk food.
> 
> Just my 2 cents


:lol:Calm down. You can put lower quality gas in your car it was tuned from the factory to do so(low and high octane fuel tables, knock sensors)that why it is on the manual and the fuel door. Will I *NO* because I have mods and it is tune to 91. It has allready been proven by Fergy and others that there is no cost benefit.


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## bratt68 (May 4, 2008)

I would say on older model cars, you might could have gotten away with it. But on these newer models with computers controlling everything...not worth it. The computers monitor what some have called a "knock-detector" It adjusts the timing until the "knock" goes away. This advance in timing increases your fuel consumption, so as mentioned by several others here, you wind up spending as much if not more because you are burning "more" of the "cheaper" fuel. My older cars, '94 Camaro, '99 Firebird, '96 Impala SS, and '74 Chevy Stepside all get the lower grade fuel. The '05 GTO gets the good stuff! I average about 24-25 MPG on the highway. I figure 6.0L and 400HP...dat's purdy good ;-}


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## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

LOWET said:


> Why use a less quality item then what they recommend.


Octane rating shouldn't be confused with quality.... they do not fully go hand in hand. Its a common simplistic notion with respect to the end product of refining crude oil, but really quality is more closely tied to the source of crude oil its refined from, along with formulation. The usable properties of hydrocarbon molecule chains with in a barrel of crude oil will vary as wide as the areas of the world that crude oil is pumped out of the ground from. In short, some places in the world have sweeter (higher hydrocarbon content) crude than others (African west coast crude is very high in HC content while middle eastern crude contains more sand, sulfur and not as much HC per bbl), each directly affect the number of processes needed to make gasoline from the base crude. Octane is only a pump number reference rating for a gasoline's stability to resist auto ignition from the heat generated by compression. 

Formulations and re-formulations vary between geographic locations thru out the world due to government regulations stemming from local or national environmental concerns. Refiners also play the game to meet their bottom line by using processes and additives to get the most saleable product per barrel of crude refined the cheapest way possible.

Below is a link about gasoline chemistry that is better than anything I can write.
Gasoline & Octane Ratings



gm4life said:


> :lol:Calm down. You can put lower quality gas in your car it was tuned from the factory to do so(low and high octane fuel tables, knock sensors)that why it is on the manual and the fuel door. Will I *NO* because I have mods and it is tune to 91. It has allready been proven by Fergy and others that there is no cost benefit.


:agree ... except for the use of the word quality... lol.



bratt68 said:


> I would say on older model cars, you might could have gotten away with it. But on these newer models with computers controlling everything...not worth it. The computers monitor what some have called a "knock-detector" It adjusts the timing until the "knock" goes away.


Not really.... cars of the muscle car hay day with high compression engines just wouldn't run very long on low octane fuel... actually, they wouldn't shut down because spark wouldn't be needed for cylinder detonation.

This link also does better justice vrs my writing ability...
Before You Buy Gasoline - Gasoline Chemistry


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

Red Bearded Goat said:


> Octane rating shouldn't be confused with quality.... they do not fully go hand in hand. Its a common simplistic notion with respect to the end product of refining crude oil, but really quality is more closely tied to the source of crude oil its refined from, along with formulation. The usable properties of hydrocarbon molecule chains with in a barrel of crude oil will vary as wide as the areas of the world that crude oil is pumped out of the ground from. In short, some places in the world have sweeter (higher hydrocarbon content) crude than others (African west coast crude is very high in HC content while middle eastern crude contains more sand, sulfur and not as much HC per bbl), each directly affect the number of processes needed to make gasoline from the base crude. Octane is only a pump number reference rating for a gasoline's stability to resist auto ignition from the heat generated by compression.
> 
> GREAT INFO. THANKS.
> 
> When it comes to a cars fluids. I always use what the maker recommends or a higher quality. So as far as gas goes on my GTO, It will always be 91 or higher. I always ran 91 even when my car was in factory stock form.


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