# Traction Control Trouble



## SilverM6Goat (Dec 22, 2009)

Hi I am new to the forum and wanted to know if anyone had the same experience with their traction control. I have an 04 M6. I have only owned the car for a couple weeks. Ever since I put snow tires on the car (maybe it is unrelated, not sure) I noticed that when my traction control is on, the system steps in and holds the car back in second, third and fourth gear as soon as the rpm's go over 4,000 and the display says low traction. At first I thought myabe the system detected a small amount of spin so I tried rolling very gently through that 4,000 rpm mark at extremely light throttle and it still does it. This rules out wheel spin completely. Any ideas? It almost makes the car unable to get out of its own way when the system is enabled. Otherwise, the system works fine when roads are actually slippery. With the system off, the car hauls no problem. I am in CT and it has been in the 20's and 30's for weather. Is there any feature in cold weather that limits what you can do with the system on? Thanks much.


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## jpalamar (Jul 22, 2008)

Cold weather even with snow/all seasons it is easy to spin the tires. I honestly think the car is fine from the description you gave and it is just a drive mod issue. If your RPMs are over 4000 what do you expect? Snow tires are designed to go though snow, not be high preformance


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Are your snow tires the same diameter as the old ones? If they are taller or shorter I can see that messing with the controller.


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## GTOJer (Oct 20, 2006)

Rukee said:


> Are your snow tires the same diameter as the old ones? If they are taller or shorter I can see that messing with the controller.


I am willing to bet this is dead on......


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## SilverM6Goat (Dec 22, 2009)

I have 4 snows on it and they are all the same tire. As far as the snows not being for performance I totally agree. My concern though, was that the traction control steps in even if I am literally on the throttle so lightly just to make the rpms slowly cross 4 grand. It does it when I am not getting into the throttle at all. Just cruise in third and slowly bring the rpms up. It is almost like the 4 thousand rpm rev limiter that a lot of the GM's had in neutral or park. It was frustrating because it makes the car awful to drive when trying to accelerate on the highway. And there is no way I was spinning from a 60 mile per hour roll in third and fourth.


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## GTOJer (Oct 20, 2006)

Ok, I will explain clearer. Depending on the size of tire, the PCM can be seeing a different tire RPM than it is expecting for a given engine RPM. When the variance gets to a certain point the PCM will think you have lost traction since you are exceeding the variance. Since it occurs at the same RPM each time, this make sense. Tire diameter is important, so important, you can adjust the tire size while tuning the car.

so what size snows did you put on?


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

Be a man and turn T/C off.


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## jpalamar (Jul 22, 2008)

Our wheel well doesn't really have alot of extra room to begin with. I can't see the diameter limits being exceeded with the little amount of space we have but it is a possibility.

OP, what size tires are you running?


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## SilverM6Goat (Dec 22, 2009)

I am running a 235/45/17. I know it varies by manufacturer but by calcualation it would yield a total height difference of about 3/8". Also I guess I figured the system used wheel sensors to compare front wheel speed to rear wheel speed to detect traction problems. But I guess you might be right with RPM to gear to wheel speed calc being off a hair but from 3/8" overal height difference? And yes, I like to turn T/C off but I should not have to and yet another catch, when it is really cold, the button does not always work. I have to press it slowly and then it seems to respond.


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## GTOJer (Oct 20, 2006)

well, just guessing here, but that is a difference of 1.5%. At 4000 rpm, in 4th, the PCM is expecting a wheel speed of 1156 rpm (assuming you have 3.46 gears). But is actually see seeing a wheel speed of 1173 rpm. I don't have any tech stuff here at work, but I must hazard to guess the difference is enough to set off the T/C system. Easy way to see, is throw your stockers back on and see if it does it.


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## jpalamar (Jul 22, 2008)

SilverM6Goat said:


> when it is really cold, the button does not always work. I have to press it slowly and then it seems to respond.


Mine was like that too. Take it apart and clean it. Someone probally spilled something in it.


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## SilverM6Goat (Dec 22, 2009)

I guess thats possible. Funny thing is it does it in second gear also where the actual speed variance would be much less. I dont notice it in first gear. Cant manufacturers be off that much in overall diameter from design to design? I wish I had a spare set of rims with the summer tires to test the theory. I appreciate the insight. I guess I will assume everything is ok until spring comes. The I will know for sure. Thanks


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## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

I believe Rukee and GTOJer hit the nail the head. OEM 17" tires have an overall diameter of 25.7" and spin 810 RPM/mile. OEM 18's are 25.4" with 820 RPM/mile. Go to tirerack.com and check the specs on the winter tires you have mounted to see what the difference is from OEM rubber. 


Ref;
Tire Specs for BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDWS


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## Zrocket (Dec 21, 2009)

GTOJer said:


> well, just guessing here, but that is a difference of 1.5%. At 4000 rpm, in 4th, the PCM is expecting a wheel speed of 1156 rpm (assuming you have 3.46 gears). But is actually see seeing a wheel speed of 1173 rpm. I don't have any tech stuff here at work, but I must hazard to guess the difference is enough to set off the T/C system. Easy way to see, is throw your stockers back on and see if it does it.


:agree

You you don't like the T/C to be the adult here, then turn it off and leave off until you put the stock tire back on...


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## jpalamar (Jul 22, 2008)

I honestly don't think it is tire size. You are still runnign the same 45 profile as the factory tires. You just have a different brand. Well so does everyone else that has tires. We aren't having these issues. Even with my DR's 275-40-17 I don't have any issues or swaping my g/s 235-40-18(she has 18s) doens't though any errors. My buddy has 235/35/19s and no errors.

Your problem is something else. I'm thinking that with the 234 and not the 245 you have less contact patch, you are driving in the cold so you have less traction from that alone, and the fact they are snow tires not preforamnce tires makes them easier to spin. Don't run your car high into the RPM or hit the gas hard and problem solved. I think its driver mod.


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

Also consider that 4000R's is at or close to peak torque. If you really are having troubles with wheelspin, go a gear higher. Sometimes I start out in 2nd if its really slippery with my Grand Am.


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

SilverM6Goat said:


> Hi I am new to the forum and wanted to know if anyone had the same experience with their traction control. I have an 04 M6. I have only owned the car for a couple weeks. Ever since I put snow tires on the car (maybe it is unrelated, not sure) I noticed that when my traction control is on, the system steps in and holds the car back in second, third and fourth gear as soon as the rpm's go over 4,000 and the display says low traction. At first I thought myabe the system detected a small amount of spin so I tried rolling very gently through that 4,000 rpm mark at extremely light throttle and it still does it. This rules out wheel spin completely. Any ideas? It almost makes the car unable to get out of its own way when the system is enabled. Otherwise, the system works fine when roads are actually slippery. With the system off, the car hauls no problem. I am in CT and it has been in the 20's and 30's for weather. Is there any feature in cold weather that limits what you can do with the system on? Thanks much.



I am also from Connecticut. Snow tires don't work very well on these cars and you would have been better off with a set of ALL SEASON tires. Snow tires offer garbage for traction on dry or wet roads or high stress situations.They are designed for one thing ,snow and snow only. These cars make very good TQ and it usually peaks around around 4000 RPMs. Most likely your TC system is starting to detect a traction loss at that RPM area and starts to take command of your car. I never use my TC button except to turn it off as soon as I start my car.


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## SilverM6Goat (Dec 22, 2009)

LOWET said:


> I am also from Connecticut. Snow tires don't work very well on these cars and you would have been better off with a set of ALL SEASON tires. Snow tires offer garbage for traction on dry or wet roads or high stress situations.They are designed for one thing ,snow and snow only. These cars make very good TQ and it usually peaks around around 4000 RPMs. Most likely your TC system is starting to detect a traction loss at that RPM area and starts to take command of your car. I never use my TC button except to turn it off as soon as I start my car.


Ok..to reiterate, the car does it at nearly zero pedal. Just gently increasing the rpm it runs into 4 grand and starts to kick in the traction control. It is definitely not a traction issue. This I am certain of. There is no way the tires are breaking loose at 65 miles per hour at 1/8 throttle. At normal low rpm driving and normal starts form a stop the system funtions perfectly fine controlling wheelspin.


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## jpalamar (Jul 22, 2008)

Find someone local to drive your car.


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

SilverM6Goat said:


> Ok..to reiterate, the car does it at nearly zero pedal. Just gently increasing the rpm it runs into 4 grand and starts to kick in the traction control. It is definitely not a traction issue. This I am certain of. There is no way the tires are breaking loose at 65 miles per hour at 1/8 throttle. At normal low rpm driving and normal starts form a stop the system funtions perfectly fine controlling wheelspin.


I really think that the snow tires are the root of your problem


Just for the hell of it, can you put the factory wheels / tires on the rear back on again. If it just started doing this with the install of snow tires, just reverse the process and see what happens.

Snow tires have a completely different contact patch area and design when compared to conventional street tires, in general there is much less actual rubber making contact with the road and indeed there could be a very minor traction loss even though you don't feel it from behind the wheel. 

If traction is not the actual problem , maybe the tire shape, size or design is causing a completely different feel while driving and your cars computer system is detecting a abnormal situation. The TC system on these cars are very sensitive and it does not take much for them to detect a problem

I really think that the snow tires are the cause of your problem. I do know a few people that drive their cars all year and in Winter weather they switch to ALL Season tires , they never use Snows. 
Replace your snows with your normal street tires and see what happens 

Where in CT are you from.


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## GTOJer (Oct 20, 2006)

OK, I thought I sent this from my Droid but I see it didn't make it, apologies.

Some on here are having a GCE (Gross Conceptual Error) IRT engine output vs RPM vs Load. I can take a car to redline with a fraction of the throttle open. Just because an engine is at 4000 does NOT mean it is at 400 ft-tq. It takes load to make power. Take a turbo car for instance. 3.91 is a poor gear for a turbo car because it blows through the RPM range before the engine can make good power. An engine likes load. Think of a dyno, driveline is loaded and throttle is wide open. Now we can see 400 ft-tq at 4000rpm. The OP says he is creeping up in speed / rpms barely using throttle. He is using maybe 50ft-tq at that moment, maybe a small bit more.

No, this is an electric problem, not a traction problem. I stand by my wheel height difference opinion. I might be wrong, but nothing else contributes to this issue.

So, as it has been said, put your summer tires back on and see if it goes away. I know it is extra work, but I for one, would like to see if there is a difference.

Jerry


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

Hey Jerry.

Wanted to let you know I looked at your CAR PAGE that you have listed in your signature. Don't know why I never noticed it before now.

Just have to say that you have ONE SWEET RIDE. That car has the best of everything. Must be a blast to drive.


John


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## 06goatm6 (Dec 5, 2008)

*T/C problem*

I have to disagree with the tire size being the problem. If they were different front or back that would be a different story, but as far as the car is concerned it tells speed from the hub. So no matter if it had 205 55 16s or 275 65 20s the relationship of speed (on the spedometer) to engine speed would be exactly the same. Yes the actual speed would be different. With oversize tires the car will be reading slower on the spedo at a higher GPS speed. And with little tiny tires the car might read 50 while a GPS says 40. I would go along with the fact that one of the wheel speed sensors is dirty or full of stuff, or possibly has a probelm and needs to be replaced. Are you driving on snow when this happens? Even with light throttle application on snow the width of the tire and the rear wheel drive, this car probably couldnt make it to 50mph on two inches of snow without spinning like crazy. If this happens on dry pavement I am at somewhat of a loss. First thing I would do is put a scan tool on it to see if there are any codes in the abs system, if not, I would then drive the car while monitoring the individual wheel speeds. Generally what happens is things will appear equal and all of a sudden you will have one wheel speed drop off to 0. Any Snap on scan tool, or GM tech 2 should be able to display this information. Good luck with the diagnosis and let us know what you find out.


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