# How to verify a 1970 GTO Judge



## AllRise70 (Jan 17, 2011)

her is I a series of 4 videos I made covering the topics on how to correctly verify a true 1970 GTO Judge. I made these videos to help expose clones, restamping of VINs, and to help potential buyers. I believe this benefits us all. Thansk for watching and let me know what ya think!!

How To Verify 1970 GTO Judge (1 of 4) - YouTube
How To Verify 1970 GTO Judge (2 of 4) - YouTube
How To Verify 1970 GTO Judge (3 of 4) - YouTube
How To Verify 1970 GTO Judge (4 of 4) - YouTube


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

He went to great lengths to educate everyone and show his car as original except a few items. In the engine bay he talked about original spark plug wires etc and originality.... What puzzles me is why he applied an aftermarket sticker on the air cleaner lid then said its all original. I was waiting for him to mention this but he didn't. That sticker cheapens the look.


Interesting on the hood scoops as well, the GTO Red Book states the inserts were blacked out along with the grille. I'll have to check with Wangers on this when I see him. 

Nice post, thanks.


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## AllRise70 (Jan 17, 2011)

GTO JUDGE said:


> He went to great lengths to educate everyone and show his car as original except a few items. In the engine bay he talked about original spark plug wires etc and originality.... What puzzles me is why he applied an aftermarket sticker on the air cleaner lid then said its all original. I was waiting for him to mention this but he didn't. That sticker cheapens the look.
> 
> 
> Interesting on the hood scoops as well, the GTO Red Book states the inserts were blacked out along with the grille. I'll have to check with Wangers on this when I see him.
> ...


I put the sticker on awhile back, was unsure of it, then left it. Oh well Good job spottin it though. I should have mentioned it. Thanks.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

AllRise70 said:


> I put the sticker on awhile back, was unsure of it, then left it. Oh well Good job spottin it though. I should have mentioned it. Thanks.


Thats your vid? Very cool!! 

No GTOs ever had a sticker on the air cleaner. Where did you get info on the scoops? I have never heard that on the color being that of the body.


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

Good job on the car and videos, another Judge item for 70 or 71 was a heavy duty and a standard torque rod were both used to hold the added weight of the spoiler. In 69 2 heavy duty rods were used and in 70 the spoilers were lighter. I believe the RA IV Judge also used a BOP 10 bolt and the type-C 12 bolt was only available with the 455 engine.

I could be wrong, its been a few years since I last read Paul Zazarine's GTO restoration guide.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Nice job on the vids, and nice car.

Also was under the impression that the 12-bolt was 455 only (and in 70, every 455 in a GTO was an H.O. --- they just didn't have round port heads.)

Bear


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## AllRise70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Hey guys, I appreciate the feedback, honestly. 
GTOJUDGE- Yeah they are my vids. I finished editing them today. YOu are correct about the air clear sticker, they did not come from the factory with the sticker. However, I left mine on, and I should have mentioned it. About the RamAir scoops... Yes they came from the factory both ways. I have a factory body assembly manual and it is sequenced with wither installation before or after paint, and I have seen a couple advertisements with the scoops the same color as the body. With that being said, I would be very interested in what Mr. Wangers has to say too. I also have a original pic somewhere of the car before restoration and the scoops were the body color also. All of this leads me to believe they could have been painted both black and the body color, and I could be wrong...Who knows, but Im open to it, and I dont mean to mislead anyone.

05Gto- 
Thank you for the info, I will add that as part of the information to the video posting on youtube to ensure correctness.

Bear- 
Sorry, but the 12 bolt rear end was also in the RAIV too. And no, the 455 in '70 was not a H.O. The H.O. came out in '71 as an option to influence customers there was still performance in the '71 cars even with gvt regulations. It could however be the same crank and pistons, but it was not specifically called a H.O motor.
Thank you everyone for the feedback and I look forward to seeing you all at Nationals in June, as Loveland is my HOMETOWN!!! Please keep the comments and suggestions coming. Much appreciated guys!

-Derek


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

AllRise70 said:


> Bear-
> Sorry, but the 12 bolt rear end was also in the RAIV too.
> -Derek


Derek,
I respectfully disagree, if you had a Ram Air 455 you could order the 12 bolt, but the 400 RAIV only offered a 10 bolt and the 455 was not offered in the Judge; Can you post your source? This is from Paul Zazarine and Chuck Roberts' Pontiac GTO 1964-1972 restoration guide;


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

Also, The scoops should be matte black for a 70 Judge;


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

First off, great videos. The more information, the better. They took a lot of time and effort, and are appreciated. Second, I just dug thru a 1972 Motor's manual, and it lists no HO 455's for 1970. Just '71 and '72. I had ALWAYS thought that the '70 model's were HO cars. Not so. The '70's did have much more power (370HP vs 335 for the top engines), but were not _called_ HO. I thought otherwise for over 30 years....goes to show you can teach and old dog new tricks. Thanks. As a PS, I disagree on the 12 bolt thing, too, but that was just set straight. I've never seen any evidence of a 12 bolt being installed by GM in a 400cid GTO. Just the 10 bolt. Again, you did a great job!!


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## AllRise70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Correction: after research, and burning both ends of the candle, 05gto and gtojudge are correct. The 12 bolt posi was not installed on the raiv. Thanks for the clarfication guys. I will make an annotation and a comment on the video shortly. Thank you for the help and i did not mean to mislead anyone. However the raiv did have 3.90 gears. Thanks again guys and sorry for the confusion. I will post a couple of sources for the the hood scoop topic later in the day. 
-derek


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## AllRise70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Ok guys I made the annotation into the video with the correction. Thanks for understanding my human factor.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

05GTO said:


> Also, The scoops should be matte black for a 70 Judge;


I'd a bet my bottom dollar on this. I sent an email to Wangers for a clarification, but I already know what his answer will be. I will post his response when he returns the email. 

Advertising pics can be confusing and not always accurate.... i.e. The first Judge built.... 1969 was actually Limelight Green. THAT car was painted Carousel Red, the car was rushed to a photo op't for advertising, the decal package was not in in time for the photo shoot. So the very first GTO Judge, a 1969 shows no fender emblem and shows a different body stripe. 

The pic below is the first photo of a Judge. Another misconception on the glove box emblem is they were not in time for production. This is partially true....... The advertising team did not like the glovebox emblem. They omitted them. When DeLorean learned of this he was not happy and demanded they be affixed. So, they had to order them. That's why some early model Judges in '69 didn't have one.

The Judge was to be named ET for Elapsed Time. DeLorean didn't like it. He told his team to develop the car he would name it. Being he loved the Here Come Da Judge skit by Sammy Davis he named it. Had he not named it the Judge would have been called E.T. 

Another example of incorrect information in publication is: The 1967 GTO having a few early units with a tri-power installed at factory. The GTO Red Book states this..... Wangers debunked that. When I have questions on GTOs I will consult with Jim. If I have Judge questions I will consult with the leading GTO Judge Authority, John Johnson of the GTOAA. I learned a lot off of him. If Jim Wangers and Paul Zazarine didn't publish it there may be some inconsistencies. There are many astute guys on here that know their $hit too.


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## 67/04gto (Jan 15, 2005)

ULTIMATE PONTIAC GTO PICTURE SITE Text Topics article #28


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

A few years ago before they went belly up...... Pontiac Enthusiast Magazine wrote a story on Doppelgangers. This is a million dollar industry. Guys with video cameras going around at car shows videoing cars data plates and the car. They then build a car exactly like the car they stole the info from.

One case they referenced was a guy who had the law come to his house to confiscate his GTO. I don't recall the year or model. Here, thieves stole the cars identity as one would do with your Social Security number and built a twin. The thieves then used the fake car as collateral on a rather large loan. They absconded with the cash. The lending institute went for the car. Well, on record was the real car and owner using the VIN. As far as the lending institute was concerned that was the car and they were taking it.

It got pretty nasty for the guy who owned the car. He had to prove the car was his. All my cars I take to shows, I hide the last 4 numbers of the VIN.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

AllRise70 said:


> Correction: after research, and burning both ends of the candle, 05gto and gtojudge


 

...and Bear 



> are correct. The 12 bolt posi was not installed on the raiv





> .


Also, the 455 available in 1970 was block casting number 9799140, and was a 1970-only casting. Despite the fact that it had D-port heads (head casting #64) the motor had 4-bolt mains and WAS designated H.O. in Pontiac literature (order form option L-75). Not, of course, to be confused with '71 and later 455 H.O. engines topped with round port heads (casting code 197 in '71, 7F6 in '72) or the '73/4 455 SD (round port head casting code 16 or X).

References:
"The GTO came loaded with the options that make every Pontiac fan envious. Of course, there's the famous L75 455 *H.O. *D-port mill, rated at 370 hp and offered for the first time in '70." Found at: 1970 Pontiac GTO 455 - High Performance Pontiac Magazine

"The '70 370 HP 455 was "named" 455HO on the option sheet. You're right, it had "D-port" heads (#64). The round-port versions were '71 and '72." Found at: Pontiac Street Performance ...and written by the man who WROTE the "Building Your Shortblock" chapter of Jim Hand's Pontiac book.


The defense rests, your honor...

Bear


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## facn8me (Jul 30, 2011)

Sounds like your video's are about the same as the one's you complained about in the first 30 seconds. That was all I could stand to watch. You come off a little cocky. Would love to see the car and may have to turn the sound down one of these days and check it out.


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

First of all, I haven't watched the vids yet. I did do some reasearch on the HO thing earlier this morning. Here's what was found.

Here's a link to all Pontiac V-8s:

Pontiac V8 engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is specifically the 455:

455For 1970 through 1977, the 428 bore was expanded .030" to 4.155 inches (105.5 mm), combined with a 4 7⁄32 (107.16 mm) stroke, yielding a total displacement of 457.6 cu in (7.499 L). Oldsmobile and Buick also had '455' inch engines about the same time. *For the 1970 model year variants of the engine became available on all full-size Pontiacs, the Grand Prix and for the first time as the 455 HO in the Pontiac GTO*, as GM lifted its restrictions on the use of engines larger than 400 cubic inches (401 in some Buicks) (455's in some Olds 442's from 1968) in mid-sized cars. The Pontiac V8 design differs from most other manufacturers' designs in that the external dimensions of each engine, from 326 - 455 cu in displacement, is identical (AMCs 290-401 engines identical). The displacement is determined internally with changes to the bore and stroke; therefore, there is no "small block" Pontiac engine. The 455 was used through 1977.

The 455, with its "undersquare" dimensions (long stroke relative to bore), emphasized torque over hp, and though advertised as less powerful than some high-performance iterations of the 400, it had a torque rating of 500 ft/lbs., 55 more ft/lbs. of torque than the 1970 performance 400's. The horsepower ratings of this era were often dubious, with engines rated higher or lower in output for advertising, political, or insurance purposes. Per Pontiac's sales brochure, the 1970 455, for example, had similar parts to the higher rated Ram Air 366 HP 400 cu. in., including the same 288/302 camshaft (manual trans. 455) yet was only rated at 360 HP. The 1970 Grand Prix with the same spec. 455 was rated at 370 HP. *For 1971 Pontiac introduced another High Output, H.O., version with standard internal parts, a reinforced block with 4-bolt main bearing caps, and improved cylinder head design with 1/8 inch taller intake ports and special round exhaust ports for better breathing, making some 335 hp (250 kW)/224 kW (310 hp in the more accurate SAE net system), but this was an extremely rare engine (it was standard in the Firebird Trans Am. In 1973, a further refined and even stronger version, the Super Duty (SD) engine was introduced with "only" 310 hp (231 kW)/231 kW (SAE net) using a similar camshaft specifications to the Ram Air IV 400. *The 455 SD used round port cylinder heads similar to those used on the *1971 and 1972 455 HO*, with specific "LS2" intake and cast iron exhaust header-manifolds. Still, it was the strongest American engine offered that year. Its power was achieved through bending of EPA emissions-testing procedures, which led engineers to de-tune the engine to 290 hp (220 kW) via a camshaft change to the same profile used in the early RAIII 400 engines for mid 1973 and 1974, after which point it was discontinued.

While an evolution of the RAIV and H.O. engine designs, the 455 SD was a much improved engine. In addition to the more refined cylinder heads, block casting reinforcements in the lifter galley and main bearing oil pan rail area along with the addition of forged connecting rods with larger 7⁄16-inch-diameter (11 mm) bolts, the SD was made with a provision for dry sump oiling from the factory. This truly was a racing engine, detuned for use in passenger cars.


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## AllRise70 (Jan 17, 2011)

facn8me said:


> Sounds like your video's are about the same as the one's you complained about in the first 30 seconds. That was all I could stand to watch. You come off a little cocky. Would love to see the car and may have to turn the sound down one of these days and check it out.


No, actually I dont think my car is. I made this video to help other individuals spot restamping of VINs and correct numbers associated with different components of the cars, and I said in the beginning that my car was not a COUNCOURS car. I am not a cocky individual as you think. I am more than open to suggestions and my faults. I honestly just dont like people doing restamps. That was the purpose of the video; then I wanted to get a little more indepth to help potential buyers, and what to look for. Given the instance where I was incorrect on the rearend, I immediately made the changes. The way I see it, I am a young guy, interested in the older generation of cars, and I doubt you will find many Pontiac entusiasts that are my age, that care about the actual knowlegde of these cars. I could be an arrogant, cocky kid, out to blast the older guys who knew these cars from the factory, and rod the piss out of my rides, but I dont. I respect cars and all the information you guys are able to give me, because one day you all will be gone and only guys like me will be around to continue sharing the heritage. Understood?

Bear- Here is where I got my information regarding the 455 motors. Straight from an original factory manual. The only difference the book states is the valve diameter, and does not make any distinction between a regular 455 or a 455 H.O. If the larger valve dia is an H.O., then thats on my interpretation of the manuals lack of distinction. Thanks for the help, much appreciated.









-Derek


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

geeteeohguy said:


> First off, great videos. The more information, the better. They took a lot of time and effort, and are appreciated. Second, I just dug thru a 1972 Motor's manual, and it lists no HO 455's for 1970. Just '71 and '72. I had ALWAYS thought that the '70 model's were HO cars. Not so. The '70's did have much more power (370HP vs 335 for the top engines), but were not _called_ HO. I thought otherwise for over 30 years....goes to show you can teach and old dog new tricks. Thanks. As a PS, I disagree on the 12 bolt thing, too, but that was just set straight. I've never seen any evidence of a 12 bolt being installed by GM in a 400cid GTO. Just the 10 bolt. Again, you did a great job!!


I have a '74 motor manual. Just like your '72s manual, Jeff, it only shows '71/'72 w/HO yet other sources say otherwise. Joy, joy......


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## AllRise70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Gentlemen, here are my sources... 
Original manuals, original dealer brouchure 
V
V


And of course the internet, Paul Zazarines eBook, my Dad, and fellow Pontiac entusiasts such as yourselves. 
Ive read them all from cover to cover


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## AllRise70 (Jan 17, 2011)

GTO JUDGE said:


> I'd a bet my bottom dollar on this. I sent an email to Wangers for a clarification, but I already know what his answer will be. I will post his response when he returns the email.
> 
> Advertising pics can be confusing and not always accurate.... i.e. The first Judge built.... 1969 was actually Limelight Green. THAT car was painted Carousel Red, the car was rushed to a photo op't for advertising, the decal package was not in in time for the photo shoot. So the very first GTO Judge, a 1969 shows no fender emblem and shows a different body stripe.
> 
> ...


Ill bet the Pontiac Gods have a special place waiting for you. Thanks for the help!!


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## facn8me (Jul 30, 2011)

I understand what your trying to do. It's comendable. I was just giving my opinion of what I saw. You did ask. It's great what your trying to do. I just felt bashing others who's intentions could be as true as yours was uncalled for and when you had to say you had a TRUE judge I laughed and had enough. Didn't even know about your car being incorrect and the other incorrect statements. You do sound enthusiastic about these old things. This is a great thing and you will help keep this hobby going when all us OLD (did you really call us old) guys die... hahahaha So what will you do with my incorrect 389 tri power lemans convertible when I die?


May I ask how you aquired this car?


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## AllRise70 (Jan 17, 2011)

> May I ask how you aquired this car?


 Thanks for the understanding, I mean no harm by what I am doing, honestly. And I didnt mean old as in OLD. I enjoy spending time with with the, for lack of a better word, ill use "horsepower" generation at car shows, and picking their brains about these dinosaurs.
I was very fortunate, that after I came back from overseas (Iraq, Marines,2006), I was surfing CL and found an ad that was titled GTO 400. So, I called the guy asking what the motor was from and he said a 69 GTO. I asked if he had a complete car (or parts) to go with it, and he said no but a guy he knew had a Judge they he may want to sell. I tracked the guy down, did some haggling, and he was a former Marine that was in Vietnam (which I think worked out for me too). Long story short, I didnt buy the 69 motor, and bought the Judge. My dad had one (Orbit Orange Judge, automatic) when I was real little and never got around to restoring it due to life and kids and such, then sold it. My dad has only owned Pontiacs and I kinda grew a love and fascination with them. So we went in halves on the costs. Havent looked back.:cheers


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## facn8me (Jul 30, 2011)

Cool story. Always good when a plan comes together.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Just because there's no documented "proof" of something being done doesn't mean it didn't happen. I've been reading a fasicnating thread over on PY by a gent named Dr. Eric Schiffer who's apparently about as well connected to Pontiac elite as anyone could be. In a recent post someone asked him to verify rumors about "special" cases in the assembly plant where workers would arrange for some shuffling to occur on the various lines so that when the cars they themselves were buying were being built received their engines, what they got were 421's instead of 389's. Of course this was in the days before computer control of 'everything' so it was a little easier to pull off than it would be today, and also of course such a thing would never show up in any records or documentation.

So, just realize that when trying to "prove" what may or may not have happened "back in the day". Only those directly involved would know for sure 

I think I need some seat time in the Beast this weekend...

Bear


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## facn8me (Jul 30, 2011)

I remember years ago reading about some executive lemans's being stuffed with 421's just because they could. Of course I was a much younger man and have zero clue where I read it at and who knows if it was true. And those post by dr schiffer are so freaking cool. All kinds of behind the scene stuff and those fantastic old pontiac articles.


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## AllRise70 (Jan 17, 2011)

facn8me said:


> So what will you do with my incorrect 389 tri power lemans convertible when I die?
> 
> 
> May I ask how you aquired this car?


Drive it like I stole it!! The way they all muscle cars are meant to be driven. The speed just depends if the cops know its stolen.


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## facn8me (Jul 30, 2011)

That's what I'm talkin about!!


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

He said it better than I did, but I deleted my post. There is a great group of guys here and are serious enthusiasts. Some are nut and bolt guys, others aren't, but we all have love for Pontiacs and get along. But, we do respect the perfectionist enthusiast and appreciate what they do. It's all about the hobby and keeping it going into your generation, and we appreciate you for doing it, and want to pass the info on.
As for the factory, in any form of racing, everyone is lying, so numbers don't mean alot. I have a $800 70 Cutlass 350 car in my garage with a 12 bolt in it, so 12 bolts were available and cheap, so the 12 bolt swap or option wasn't a big deal, other BOP cars had them. Anyway, post some pics of your car and let us check them out..




facn8me said:


> I understand what your trying to do. It's comendable. I was just giving my opinion of what I saw. You did ask. It's great what your trying to do. I just felt bashing others who's intentions could be as true as yours was uncalled for and when you had to say you had a TRUE judge I laughed and had enough. Didn't even know about your car being incorrect and the other incorrect statements. You do sound enthusiastic about these old things. This is a great thing and you will help keep this hobby going when all us OLD (did you really call us old) guys die... hahahaha So what will you do with my incorrect 389 tri power lemans convertible when I die?
> 
> 
> May I ask how you aquired this car?


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## MickeyKelley (Oct 28, 2011)

Just exactly who are you calling 'nuts'? :rofl:


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Just watched the last two parts, and liked it. It's not as easy as it looks to walk around a vehicle and give an accurate documentary of the cuff. Well done. That said, a few minor nitpicks: it was stated that cars with rally gauges had mechanical gauges. Not so. They were electrical gauges. Also, and I may be all wet here, on the early GTO's that I know about ( '67 and earlier) , cars with manual brakes never had the stainless trim around the pedals. (I installed them on my '65 because it looks better). Another mention was made about Ram Air exhaust manifolds being ceramic coated. I've never heard of this. All were cast iron and left that way, as far as I know. "Detroit welds" were mentioned. Isn't this a Fremont car?? The hood tach has a _heater core_? Did you mean heating _element_? Drain plug location is on the side of the pan....All the '69 and earlier pans had the plug centered at the front of the sump. Did they change in '70? The final nit is the unpainted engine pad area of the block.....I suppose this is to make the numbers easier to read? Again, a beautiful restoration on a great car, and a great presentation. Not easy to do, but appreciated. Thank you.


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## AllRise70 (Jan 17, 2011)

geeteeohguy said:


> Just watched the last two parts, and liked it. It's not as easy as it looks to walk around a vehicle and give an accurate documentary of the cuff. Well done. That said, a few minor nitpicks: it was stated that cars with rally gauges had mechanical gauges. Not so. They were electrical gauges. Also, and I may be all wet here, on the early GTO's that I know about ( '67 and earlier) , cars with manual brakes never had the stainless trim around the pedals. (I installed them on my '65 because it looks better). Another mention was made about Ram Air exhaust manifolds being ceramic coated. I've never heard of this. All were cast iron and left that way, as far as I know. "Detroit welds" were mentioned. Isn't this a Fremont car?? The hood tach has a _heater core_? Did you mean heating _element_? Drain plug location is on the side of the pan....All the '69 and earlier pans had the plug centered at the front of the sump. Did they change in '70? The final nit is the unpainted engine pad area of the block.....I suppose this is to make the numbers easier to read? Again, a beautiful restoration on a great car, and a great presentation. Not easy to do, but appreciated. Thank you.


Thanks for watching...I am aware that they are electrical gauges, however I meant mechanical due to the actual moving needles (I kinda generalized), thanks for pointing that out though. You are correct, the exhaust manifolds were infact cast iron, but I coated mine with a ceramic coating to prevent corrsion, and preserve a fresh look. I do not know if that is factory and I should have clarified that. Yes, my car is a Fremont car, but the best name I could come up with was "Detroit". I have also found that people use this term as a slang word for factory done welds. No, the hoodtach does not have a Heating Element. In late '69 early '70 there were complaints of the hood tach fogging in inclement weather, Pontiac's solution to the problem was to reroute a "vent line" from the heater to defog the tachometer. Again, you guessed right, I left the machined pads unpainted to make sure the numbers were easier to read for documentation purposes, and then coated exposed surfaces and master cylinder with a corrosion prevention lubricant similar to what you clean a firearm with to prevent corrosion. I do not know about the drain plug issue but I will do some reseach and get back to you so that can be clarified. I do know that is this is the pan that was installed on the car at the time I purchased it, and the owner said no work had been performed on the engine, so I assume that the plug did move for 1970. Again, let me double check, or someone else feel free to chime in too. Thanks, and even though you guys are tearing my videos apart, I make have to go back and make new ones adding in all of your corrections, which I do not mind!!! Thanks again for the feedback.
-Derek


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Thanks for clarifying the heat system for the tach, Derek. I learned something! Another way to describe gauges with moving needles would be to call them "analog gauges". A safe, generic term that would apply to both electrical and mechanical analog gauges! Again, good documentation job.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

I believe i read that the matte black scoop inserts and also black air foil were only optioned for the white Judges...Just throwing it out there, not a scholar on the subject...


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

The originals did have the defrost hose going to the heater box. The new repop ones don't have the hose, but upgraded electronics and work better per the parts guy I deal with, and don't fog. Mechanical gauges have a line hooked to them to give them a mechanical interface, ie. tach drive tachs, oil pressure gauges. Electric gauges use a sending unit, then wire to the gauge. Electronic gauges don't have a real needle, just a display.
For mechanical issues, I would check the PYI website and pick those guys brains, there's plenty of guys that were there in the day, Jim Hand.. I appreciate what you are doing, my uncle sold model A parts for years, and I looked at his cars but never hung out and really learned about them as I was into muscle cars. Now, 25 years later wish I would of paid more attention.


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## AllRise70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Alright gents, due to the enormous amount of feedback I have recieved regarding my videos, I have decided to to make a few changes in the presentation and update the videos to be as correct and accurate as I can, now that I have recieved such great feedback from you all. I will cite you all as a reference so your insight and knowledge doesnt go unnoticed in the credits slide. However with that being said, I would appreciate you all to kinda contribute the tidbits you wish on this thread and I will add them in to the video. I will begin filming the video on Monday when perhaps the weather gets a tad bit warmer. Any facts regarding the 69/70/71 Judge are welcome, as I want to be as correct as I can. Iw ill open the new videos a little bit more personably, as I feel my humor may have been a bit brash, and for that I apologize. I will leave the current videos up for your critqueing and make suggestions as for what you would like me to touch on. I will be checking this thread periodically tonight and all day tomorrow, and by about noon (MDT) I will take all feedback and begin filming another series for the world to see. Now GTOFORUM, lets get after it and make sure the world can be exposed to the correct history, exposing of fraudulent VINs, passion for the Special Great One. I anticipate a series of 4 videos around 10 min each (total of 40 min) in the series. I will edit the video a little better too. So lets hear it!!!

Remember the purpose of the video is not to display a Coucours level car, but to help the less knowledgable, prevent misrepresentation, to take pride in our hobby, and preserve the history for others to see. Now I am no film editor, but I will do my best, and I have a couple of friends who studied film production in college that might help me out.
-Derek


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Why are you so hardcore to disprove fake Judges, and not appreciate the entire Lemans/GTO lineage? I would love to have a judge, but the last one I remember, beyond car shows, was a blue 70 in 78, I was 14, that my neighbor ended up as a vegetable street racing, honestly, he came out of the hospital acting like a 8 year old. Beyond that, I saw pics, but GTO/Lemans are rare, appreciate the hobby, or do what you do. Will be cool to see the new info you collect.
I don't know of many COPO, Heavy Chevy additions, but I do know that Stampede Pontiac built some max HP Lemans, low option cars like the Heavy Chevy, they called them The Jury, like my car, I did mine free will, not authentic, it had goofy stripes on it. 
Here's a quote off hemmings.
"I desire to eventually get the back end of the car painted to look like a 1970 LeMans "Jury" built by Stampede Buick-Ponitac in Alberta Canada. Only 26 original Jury's were made - sort of Canada's answer to the "Judge""


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## AllRise70 (Jan 17, 2011)

jetstang said:


> Why are you so hardcore to disprove fake Judges, and not appreciate the entire Lemans/GTO lineage? I would love to have a judge, but the last one I remember, beyond car shows, was a blue 70 in 78, I was 14, that my neighbor ended up as a vegetable street racing, honestly, he came out of the hospital acting like a 8 year old. Beyond that, I saw pics, but GTO/Lemans are rare, appreciate the hobby, or do what you do. Will be cool to see the new info you collect.
> I don't know of many COPO, Heavy Chevy additions, but I do know that Stampede Pontiac built some max HP Lemans, low option cars like the Heavy Chevy, they called them The Jury, like my car, I did mine free will, not authentic, it had goofy stripes on it.
> Here's a quote off hemmings.
> "I desire to eventually get the back end of the car painted to look like a 1970 LeMans "Jury" built by Stampede Buick-Ponitac in Alberta Canada. Only 26 original Jury's were made - sort of Canada's answer to the "Judge""


Im not anit "fake judges", and I do appreciate the LeMans/Temptest lineage, Its just that recently I came across a classic car dealer, whom I wont name, advertising a GTO Judge for sale. I called the dealer and asked him questions pertaining to the vehicle, and there were quite a few inconsistencies. I then realized he had posted a video on the internet saying the car was a numbers matching "Judge". They were advertising in the video the car was numbers matching, RAIII, M21, 10 bolt rearend car. I asked them if they had the build sheet and he said yes, then I asked for a copy and that I would send a bank certified note proving I indeed had the funds to purchase the car if was built with an M21. He refused to provide the build sheet, yet told me he would send pics of the tranny and block stamps. The tranny stamp, of course was not legit, so I pursued to make this video as a response to his, to ensure no buyer was ripped off. I then posted the videos to this forum, and some of my facts werent exactly correct. Being a person who wants to correctly represent himself, I now have gotten myself into this situation and wanting to resolve it. I guess things got out of control, but I just want to make sure my word is correct and my reputation is maintained. Personally its not a "Judge only thing". Id love to have a GT37 Lemans, a 69 RAIV GTO, and a 73 455SD TA, but Im realistic. I have what I have and I just didnt want another person, unknowingly to get ripped.

-Derek


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

I go to the Moultrie swap meet, and saw many 66/7 GTOs with Lemans/Tempest tail lights, much easier to pick out a fake in earlier car. On a 70/72 all it is is a stripe kit, other mods that are available to the lesser stock GTO as options. The Lemans Sport comes with all the GTO interior options, full gauges, buckets, center console, but just doesn't have the big motor, but is it's own vin code 237, probably rarer than GTOs, but will never pull the price of a GTO.
I just watched your videos, very well done, but proves you didn't build the car. I have pride in cars that I buiit, not just bought. Semper Fi.
I had a 71 Lemans Sport in high school, and just got it back, so it's more reliving the past for me, just wish it had a real cup holder, and bolstered seats..


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## AllRise70 (Jan 17, 2011)

jetstang said:


> I go to the Moultrie swap meet, and saw many 66/7 GTOs with Lemans/Tempest tail lights, much easier to pick out a fake in earlier car. On a 70/72 all it is is a stripe kit, other mods that are available to the lesser stock GTO as options. The Lemans Sport comes with all the GTO interior options, full gauges, buckets, center console, but just doesn't have the big motor, but is it's own vin code 237, probably rairer than GTOs, but will never pull the price of a GTO.
> I just watched your videos, very well done, but proves you didn't build the car. I have pride in cars that I buiit, not just bought. Semper Fi.
> I had a 71 Lemans Sport in high school, and just got it back, so it's more reliving the past for me, just wish it had a real cup holder, and bolstered seats..


Congrats on getting the LeMans back! I would have loved to live in the days when these cars came from the factory. However, thats a bold statement saying I didnt build the car. I did infact do most of the mechanical, and chassis work. I will admit that I did not do the paint and body work. That was done professionally. But mechanically the drivetrain was completed 80% by me minus the machine work. I did not rebuild the tranny either, or install the headliner, along with some electrical done with some help. But other than that it was mostly dont by either my father or myself. I am in the same boat as you...Built not bought is the way to go, but I will never knock a guy who buys a car he had a teen or young adult to relive old thrills, just because he lacks mechanical skills. Thanks for watching the videos and I do anticipate to delete the current ones and add new ones. 

Also, wasnt it more than a stripe kit? WT1- Anti roll bar, no trim rings? But then again you could order anything in any combo from the factory


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

To be clear: The fellows on this site when I was looking for a Judge 5+ years ago know this. For those who don’t here is a history on mine:

I searched for a Judge in 2004. I wanted one turnkey or with little work to do on it back then they were going for 40K+. I wanted one bad. I weighed the cost factor and decided to order a new ’05 GTO from factory and postpone my search. 10K less than 40 year old car, I did. Then I got that itch again, it was worse. Again I went hunting, the price to me was still cost prohibitive. I had guys in the GTOAA from coast to coast helping me look and emailing me prospects. I had guys ready to go look at the car for me it one was found. Still the prices were too high. Then I got to thinking, what do I want it for? I want to drive it, enjoy it and not fear that in a split of an instance the car could be totaled. I do not want a trailer queen or a dust magnet in the garage. The fear factor owning a 40K+ car that I wanted to drive regularly during the year was weighing me down. In the meantime I am acquiring knowledge on Judges from several sources namely John Johnson from the GTOAA I referenced in a previous post. I learned what to look for and how to spot fakes.

So I am thinking…. 40+K for turnkey? Or what if I bought one and did it up as a reproduction? I thought long and hard on this. I figured if I will reproduce it I will reproduce it exactly. I will not fall short of what many see as clones or tributes, those gag me. Especially when advertised as a tribute. Affixing decals and calling it a tribute is a joke. So I found one, a friend had it, I knew this car. PHS shows it had some options a Judge had so I began building it. Palladium Silver is correct and was painted with the exact GM code. Using concourse pictures, knowledge I acquired and the with help from Judge owner friends, the work began. Mechanically, when the motor was out last year I was going to have it rebuilt to Judge specs by ReceKrafters. I was going to upgrade the R/A III cam. Upon tearing the motor apart by my friend who’s built Pontiac motors for many years we discovered the interior of the motor was immaculate. Not one sign of sludge, the parts looked new. He estimated the motor as having less than 20K on it. OK so how bout a beefy cam, he says theres one in there he showed me. It does have a nice lope to it. The car was raced and someone upgraded some parts in the motor. Do I spend 4K for a rebuild on a motor that doesn’t need it or apply that money elsewhere? The motor is producing the power as it is, 4K for a slight gain if any? We put it back together. New Pontiac 3:55 rear end installed built by a Pontiac guy in Ohio. TH 400 rebuilt with the snot its supposed to have, valve body replaced with one with the gusto as a Judge. All parts on the motor powder coated and painted in accordance to concourse Jude colors. New parts installed. So the heads are not correct nor the block. I don’t care, I am not entering the car to win trophies, my trophies are guys thumbs upping me as I drive it. The only thing I need to do is install the R/A manifolds then the proper heat riser. Why didn’t I do it when the motor was out? Manifolds plus down pipes would run me another 500.00 or so. It was a cost thing, I will get to it at some point. I laid out over 2K in parts, labor was pizza and beer for my buddies who took great pride in building this with me. All stainless hardware was used with neverseze for easy removal. The Carter/Rochester Q-Jet was rebuilt and set properly. 

Car goes back together. It’s 99% identical to authentic. To non Pontiac guys its 100%. To Pontiac guys and at shows I make no attempts to hide it, why? I get asked at Pontiac events why is it in a different class than Judges, I tell them. They are amazed. Could I pass this off as authentic? Maybe. I’d never do it. I built this for me. I saved 25K doing it. What did I get buy building one instead of buying an authentic one? I got 2 other cars, 2005 GTO factory ordered and all numbers matching 2002 T/A WS.6. 3 cars for the price of one and I built a garage to house my GTO's and had one built for the T/A. Well not total purchase costs wise but the money I saved on buying authentic then putting into the car, enabled me to acquire others. 

Authentic or reproduction. Authentic, drive it sparingly and look at it mostly and brag its real, or I drive it, enjoy it and not worry about the authenticity. I do not plan on getting rid of it. 100% the fun, and enjoyment at 50% the cost. Grew my Pontiac collection. It has as much power as authentic and looks mirror like to one. I did this right. Most others fall far short and stain what I have done. I personally don’t care what others think. My thing is build what you want not what others think you should do or have. I could sell it and make money on it. I know guys who fixed up theirs and will lose their ass if they sold it. I actually win awards now with this not that I care cause I don’t. My buddy’s ’69 Judge, his is concourse, he painted my motor and parts and helped me build this right, we have tied at events. I thank him, its a running joke between us, ahhhhh my fake beat your real one.... I reap the benefit of his helping me. When you buy a car you buy a series of numbers, the car’s social security number. There are many authentic Judges out there restored with non Judge parts. I built mine with Judge correct parts. So, for me….. I don’t care if it’s not authentic 99% think it is. 

I could not have said anything, some of the guys on here know, Just setting the record straight for those who didn't know. Also if done right like I did, I see nothing wrong with it..... as long as you don't screw someone over it.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

GTO Judge, you said it very well. :cheers:

I've asked the question before of people, "are you building it for you or for someone else?".

I can't tell you how many times I had to make myself refer back to that question as I was building the Beast. Do I paint it original (Palladium Silver and black vinyl top) or the color I like?, do I build an oriignal drive train or one with some serious b*lls? Am I going to care when someone notices the 722 heads aren't correct for a YS block? 

Mrs. Bear will tell you that I spent more than just a little time agaonizing over every one of those decisions and more.

Now that it's running and I actually get to drive it... well, I'm very thankful to be married to such a terrific woman.








Bear


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Nice Bear!! Special lady!!!! Others are envious of my wife. She has the need for speed. Loves GTOs and Pontiacs. The WS.6 I purchased for her. Most women in their 50's are being fitted in Buicks. Her? Shes out in a T/A raising hell on the road. She goes to nearly all major events with me. When we are at a show no matter if its local regional or national she sees a T/A, G/A, GTO, shes off talking to them her mouth goes like a ducks a$$ talking cars with them I look around shes gone over comparing T/A's I laugh at it. How many women insist on being introduced to Jim Wangers? She talked a tin ear off of him about GTOs and Pontiacs I was like..... DAMN woman. She tells me I drive the '70 like an old man, nail it she says, like 80mph ain't fast enough for her. I think she likes the feel of the headrest as her head bounces off of it.

Sure beats having to lie or ask permission to go out or buy parts. She asks me when the next shows are. Her calendar is marked.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Nicelly said Judge and Bear.. It's more about memories and wants then correctness. As they said, who are you doing it for? I did a Jury car for me, as that was my dream when I was 16, does anyone else get it, I don't care, is it nice? Nicest car I have ever had painted, and love it. What's it worth? Hopefully more than I've put in it, but only my daughter will know it's value as I'm keeping it. My car lives under a car cover and only comes out for special events. My 99 Vette and 90 454 SS truck don't see the inside of the garage and the Lemans doesn't see sunlight.. Both the other cars are way faster, but the Lemans is a cruiser and showy. I am not a Pontiac fanatic, but can't wait to get my 66 GTO cloan back under way in the next few months, my other high school car, but that was a 66 Tempest with a 455 in it. Life is good, love the hobby and having fun, not losing my mind over numbers and disproving others passions, guys may really love their cars even if they are cloans, sure they really want the real thing, but do what they can afford. If they fraudulentelly list a car, then that's an issue.

My GFs daughter told me all my cars are junk because of what has went wrong with them and told me that I should buy a quality car. I said, what car, like your Scion TC or her hubbys Toyota X runner? She said yes, they are better cars.. Gotta love a youngin.. But she was serious..


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## AllRise70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Nicely said guys. To me, I believe classic cars are somewhat of a video game...Those with the most miles on thier's wins! Makin another video series today, will have em up soon.

-Derek


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## wkidgto (Sep 30, 2017)

Does anyone have these videos available, they are no longer listed on you tube?
Thanks


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## Nicholas (Jan 16, 2017)

This is a great thread. Never knew it existed. Might be just in time for me. I'm getting a little bit of an itch to buy a '70 Judge. I would want an original if I did this. I know I can order the PHS sheet, but would also look at the car for signs of fraudulent changes. There are some people out there that are very creative. I'm presently looking at one through a dealer and have inquired about the drivetrain, mainly the motor, being original. Haven't heard back yet. Maybe this is an omen. He did supply the PHS (want my own) and build sheet on line. I still would have to see this car in person if I pursued it. I hate to go to Tenn., but for this amount of money, I'm obligated. 
If I could also comment on cloning or tribute cars, my '71 GTO is the real deal. I have the PHS sheet and the vin is 242. It is Tropical Lime Green in color. Body off frame resto about 8 years ago. Factory a/c. Overall, very nice condition. I just love the eyebrow stripes and decals on the '70 and '71 Judges. When I bought this one, I had no intention of cloning it into a Judge, and I didn't want to spend a lot more money for an original one. But, I changed my mind. I did some research and did make the transition. I bought and installed I believe everything to make this look authentic. I think it looks great. Those stripes make that green paint really pop. I have no regrets. I built this exclusively for me. There would never be any intent on my part to misrepresent this car as something it's not, even if it was impossible to disprove it. Just not something I would do. If I'm asked about it being a real Judge, my answer always has been and always will be, no. I have no problem with that. Funny thing, on another site I mentioned that I was going to clone my car into a Judge, and a member said "great, just what we need. Another cloned Judge". That's ok. Didn't bother me. He's entitled to his opinion. 
So, if any of you nice people know of an original '70 Judge in turnkey condition, please advise. It might not pique my interest and I might not want to buy at this time, but I always like to look. If something jumps out at me, might be a different story. Thank you, Nicholas.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Nicholas said:


> This is a great thread. Never knew it existed. Might be just in time for me. I'm getting a little bit of an itch to buy a '70 Judge. I would want an original if I did this. I know I can order the PHS sheet, but would also look at the car for signs of fraudulent changes. There are some people out there that are very creative. I'm presently looking at one through a dealer and have inquired about the drivetrain, mainly the motor, being original. Haven't heard back yet. Maybe this is an omen. He did supply the PHS (want my own) and build sheet on line. I still would have to see this car in person if I pursued it. I hate to go to Tenn., but for this amount of money, I'm obligated.
> If I could also comment on cloning or tribute cars, my '71 GTO is the real deal. I have the PHS sheet and the vin is 242. It is Tropical Lime Green in color. Body off frame resto about 8 years ago. Factory a/c. Overall, very nice condition. I just love the eyebrow stripes and decals on the '70 and '71 Judges. When I bought this one, I had no intention of cloning it into a Judge, and I didn't want to spend a lot more money for an original one. But, I changed my mind. I did some research and did make the transition. I bought and installed I believe everything to make this look authentic. I think it looks great. Those stripes make that green paint really pop. I have no regrets. I built this exclusively for me. There would never be any intent on my part to misrepresent this car as something it's not, even if it was impossible to disprove it. Just not something I would do. If I'm asked about it being a real Judge, my answer always has been and always will be, no. I have no problem with that. Funny thing, on another site I mentioned that I was going to clone my car into a Judge, and a member said "great, just what we need. Another cloned Judge". That's ok. Didn't bother me. He's entitled to his opinion.
> So, if any of you nice people know of an original '70 Judge in turnkey condition, please advise. It might not pique my interest and I might not want to buy at this time, but I always like to look. If something jumps out at me, might be a different story. Thank you, Nicholas.


Here is a turn key 1970 Judge for a good price- https://classics.autotrader.com/classic-cars/1970/pontiac/gto/100963780

Ebay has a few as well. Should not be too difficult to find.


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## Nicholas (Jan 16, 2017)

OK. Thanks PontiacJim. Will take a look.


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## Nicholas (Jan 16, 2017)

Spent a little time on line. Original '70 Judges are certainly out there. Also found many more were cloned. A little deceiving when they advertise it as a Judge, until you get to the smaller print. Then they advise that it is a well done tribute car, which is fine with me, but they should tell you that up front. Some of these are done up very nicely. I enjoy looking and learning. I never know when something just might jump out at me.


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## the1970GTO (May 27, 2018)

AllRise70 said:


> her is I a series of 4 videos I made covering the topics on how to correctly verify a true 1970 GTO Judge. I made these videos to help expose clones, restamping of VINs, and to help potential buyers. I believe this benefits us all. Thansk for watching and let me know what ya think!!
> 
> How To Verify 1970 GTO Judge (1 of 4) - YouTube
> How To Verify 1970 GTO Judge (2 of 4) - YouTube
> ...


I can watch a bunch of other youtube videos, but these show me an exclamation mark in a circle - any idea why?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

the1970GTO said:


> I can watch a bunch of other youtube videos, but these show me an exclamation mark in a circle - any idea why?


I see in the upper right a red "Sign In" that seems to stand out. Did not try to sign in with Google, but that may be the key to unlock the vids. Typically you can just watch them, but as of late, I think some things are changing for security reasons after the Facebook privacy issues.

It could have also been removed seeing this was a 6 year ago posting.


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