# 455 vs 454



## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

geeteeohguy said:


> A 455 Pontiac will bolt right into your '74. It's a better engine than the 454: more torque, faster on the street, more reliable, and it will appear to be the stock, original engine. A real sleeper! All the 454 Chevs I've ever run against have been boat anchors that could not come close to the 389 or 400 Pontiac in performance. Keep it Pontiac!!!!


OMG, that is SO offensive. 454 is a boat anchor? Holy crap, at least BBCs are still GM, lets save the smack talk for Fords and Mopars... :shutme
My 90 454 SS truck is as fast as my LS1 Vette, will be faster with a better cam, and that's with oval port heads, not even talking rectangular port heads. I thought my 455 Tempest was fast back in high school, but my current cars are faster, my pontiacs are cool, but not fast. Not that some Poncho's aren't fast, they are, but dollar for dollar Chevy's are the go fast option on the cheap.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Edelbrock has an aluminum head, intake and cam kit for a stock 454 puts it over 500HP easy peasy.


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

If you're going to arse around with a Chevrolet motor, go corporate. Don't bother with the antiquated junk, use an LS motor. Bang for the buck? Use something modern that will produce more hp & tq per cube than a leaky old rat motor could ever dream of. Cammed BBCs don't produce the numbers that even an LS3 can until you go tall deck with 500+ cubes.

That is, if you don't want to use a Pontiac block, which I would encourage.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Poncho Dan said:


> If you're going to arse around with a Chevrolet motor, go corporate. Don't bother with the antiquated junk, use an LS motor. Bang for the buck? Use something modern that will produce more hp & tq per cube than a leaky old rat motor could ever dream of. Cammed BBCs don't produce the numbers that even an LS3 can until you go tall deck with 500+ cubes.
> 
> That is, if you don't want to use a Pontiac block, which I would encourage.


I totally agree with you, although VERY offended. Bang for the buck, LS motors are the sh#t. My LS-1 radiator is like an inch thick, aluminum LS motors dissipate heat throught the head and block, no ovrerheating problems, so all the ignition you can throw at it.
My 12.5 BBC racegas 468 can turn out some healthy numbers and I don't need a computer to tune it.


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

Its more of the head technology than anything else really that holds the old motors back.

I've had some classic iron in my time... and when I say junk, I mean can-o-worms, headaches and whipping tools, cuz man I have never cussed so much in my life than with the old stuff. They would constantly milk me of $300 here, $400 there, every couple of months, which is just fine when you're an inexperienced kid in his late teens-early 20's with nothing better to do with your time & money than to spend it on cars, women, and beer, but not so much when you're a family man with grown-up priorities.:cheers


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Poncho Dan said:


> Its more of the head technology than anything else really that holds the old motors back.
> 
> I've had some classic iron in my time... and when I say junk, I mean can-o-worms, headaches and whipping tools, cuz man I have never cussed so much in my life than with the old stuff. They would constantly milk me of $300 here, $400 there, every couple of months, which is just fine when you're an inexperienced kid in his late teens-early 20's with nothing better to do with your time & money than to spend it on cars, women, and beer, but not so much when you're a family man with grown-up priorities.:cheers


That's funny cause over the last 19+years I must have built at least 12 healthy built 454s. And every single one is still on the road, several hammer up and down the drag strip all the time and still going strong. A properly built 454 with an MSD w/rev limiter is almost bullet proof.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Rukee said:


> That's funny cause over the last 19+years I must have built at least 12 healthy built 454s. And every single one is still on the road, several hammer up and down the drag strip all the time and still going strong. A properly built 454 with an MSD w/rev limiter is almost bullet proof.


I was thinking the same thing. Fixing the little stuff that breaks is called, "Working the bugs out"...


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Excellent. I KNEW that would get this thread going!! Of course, buck for buck Chev is more cost effective: that's why EVERYBODY runs one! But I still contend that a stock, original 454 vs an original 455 Pontiac will come out the loser. I myself have never lost a race to a Chevy. That was then. New technology, better machining, etc. No way to compare a built up with custom parts Chevy to a vintage Poncho motor. Apples and Oranges. I still say he should bolt a 455 Pontiac in place of the 350, Easy and effective. Plus, I wanted to see if I could get a rise out of Jetstang....


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

Rukee said:


> That's funny cause over the last 19+years I must have built at least 12 healthy built 454s. And every single one is still on the road, several hammer up and down the drag strip all the time and still going strong. A properly built 454 with an MSD w/rev limiter is almost bullet proof.


That was part of the problem, for me anyways... not having a competent builder work on my motor. Dropping $4000+ on a rebuild for a motor that ran like ass, and eventually froze up before I could tune it right, was cause for a lot frustration and confusion. I guess the old saying goes, "do it once, do it right - do it yourself."  Oh well, live and learn.

I know they're not "junk" like I stated earlier, I guess I couldn't come up with a better term...


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Poncho Dan said:


> That was part of the problem, for me anyways... not having a competent builder work on my motor. Dropping $4000+ on a rebuild for a motor that ran like ass, and eventually froze up before I could tune it right, was cause for a lot frustration and confusion. I guess the old saying goes, "do it once, do it right - do it yourself."  Oh well, live and learn.
> 
> I know they're not "junk" like I stated earlier, I guess I couldn't come up with a better term...


I was doing mine for a grand less and installed too. :/


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

Yeah, I wish I had that $4000 now, for mods.  Guess that's why they call it experience.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

geeteeohguy said:


> But I still contend that a stock, original 454 vs an original 455 Pontiac will come out the loser. I myself have never lost a race to a Chevy. I still say he should bolt a 455 Pontiac in place of the 350, Easy and effective. Plus, I wanted to see if I could get a rise out of Jetstang....


Come to my house, I'll beat you twice with my Chevy's!! And then we can go to the strip and get our asses kicked by turbo'd Civics, SRT-4s and WRXs. It's all relevant, the less you race the less you get beat.
Still, 454s came factory with 255hp to 450HP, so define "stock".
He should definatelly use a Pontiac 400 or 455 in that car. I have a 12.5 to 1 468 sitting in my garage that I want to stick in my 66, but feel better about using a Pontiac. But, the 66 is going to be my badass car, so it may get the good motor, cheaper to use that motor than build one. But, then I need a trans, stall and rear. Chevys' depreciate Pontiacs unless they're done cool.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

12.5 to 1 won't run on pump gas either.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Rukee said:


> 12.5 to 1 won't run on pump gas either.


Well, it has .250 dome pistons and a solid cam. So, the heads will dictate the final compression ratio. It's a race motor for a mud bog truck. I traded my Jetboat for the motor. I'm using the heads on my truck. The motor is radical, and that's why it's just sitting on a stand for now.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Jetstang, your statement about "the less you race, the less you lose" is right on the money. I haven't raced in a long time, and when I was doing it, the competition was over-cammed, over-carbureted clapped together BBC's and SBC's that were probably slower than stock iron. Nowaday's, a vintage, STOCK GTO would have a hard time trying to deep up with some of the rice burners out there. I am amazed, though. In the '70's, I thought the V8 engine would be gone by the turn of the century. Here we are, the year is 2010, and you can go and buy a 400-700HP V8 monster at the showroom of your choice. If someone told me in 1979 that musclecars would come back in a big way, I would have said they were NUTS. It's all in perspective. Some of the best running engines I've ever seen are small block chevys, and some of the most durable. Buddie's of mine with the Chevy big blocks back in the day always seemed to have valve issues and oil burning issues, and their cars never seemed to run like they actually had 450HP, etc. I raced an LS-6 '70 Chevelle with my bone stock 400 cid '67 convertible and smoked the guy. Maybe his distributor was off a tooth, or his plug wires were crossed. I dunno. But that was over 20 years ago. Things change!! I just HATE seeing a Chevy motor in a Pontiac, and the few transplants I've seen have been a downgrade from what they were originally. If I had a Chevelle, there's no way I'd put a Pontiac motor in it, either!! It would be Chevy all the way.


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

I moved most of the posts from the, "Need a 454 engine that'll fit 1974" thread, here, so you can continue your discussion........


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

BBCs do have valve issues because of the valve angle in relation to the cam/lifters, there hard on cams. But to have a Semi-hemi combustion chamber you have to make sacrifices. Back in the day like you are saying, guys were trying to daily drive LS-7 454/450 HP with 11:1 pistons and solid cams big Holleys and drag pack 3.90 gears. Those cars take a lot of maintenance, something we woulnd't accept nowadays. A lesser well tuned car will whoop up on a neglected hipo car. All the bigblock Chevy's I've had or been around have been monsters, massive torque and HP, and are pretty hearty engines. 

So, what about a Pontiac internally makes it better than a BBC?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Green Goat is right, the thread has been hijacked. We should probably start a pro and con thread. That said, I can't tell you that a Pontiac is better internally than a BBC....I think you hit the nail on the head with the Hi strung, but out of tune vs the milder but up to par vehicle. I've read articles where stock Buick GS 455's outran 426 hemi's on the strip, with inferior gears at that. Same thing: to successfully run a hipo big block, everything needs to be in synch. The quickest car I ever had the pleasure to drive was a 26,000 mile, original 427 tripower 4 speed Corvette. It would eat any of my GTO's in a drag race. The fastest car I've ever been in was a '74 Firebird running a 455 Pontiac and two Q-jets with 2.40 gears. The top end on that thing was unreal.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

On my 454 SS, I built the motor for it, .125 dome TRW forged pistons, 4 bolt main, Edelbrock Performer plus cam, and ported peanut port heads. Cam is .510 lift, 113 LSA. It has headers, edelbrock intake, holley 750, 3.73 gears, turbo 400 w/shift kit and gear vendors overdrive. I was racing it at the strip, 8.8 to 9.0 in the 1/8th and wanted faster. So, I put a set of ported and polished LS-5 heads on w/stainless 2.19 valves and aluminum roller rockers. Went back to the strip, turned the same ET and lost bottom end torque, bigger is not always better. I know I need a bigger cam to get the full potential of the heads. But that's my point, lesser correct engine can make better power than mismatched parts. Stock 454 SSs run 15.7s, and mine is running 13.4s. Not bad for a mild performance rebuild. But the stock peanut port heads are terrible, so any head mods can pick up a lot of power.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

My quickest car was a 67 Chevelle SS 396, solid cam, 2 carter AFBs, 4 Speed and 4.88 gears. I never took it to the strip but you could nail it at 30 MPH and blow the tires off the thing.
Then I had a 78 Show Corvette, chrome everything, 427/380 HP, 3.23 gears. Car was fast, took it to Germany, going down the autobahn at 100 MPH a porsche 968 pulled up next to me and wanted to race, I laughed, I was at 4400 RPMs in drive, wish it had an OD, but this was in 91.
My 66 455 Tempest high school car made me a Pontiac man. It had a 70 GTO Posi in it w/3.55 gear posi. I beat a bunch of quick cars, I was the man-till I spun a rod bearing in it, then went in the military. It was a Wisconsin car, so I think it was fast because there wasnt' any metal left on it.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

if i had a pontiac 455 and 4.88 gears i would want it to have 40" tires. its all in the combination. if you have an engine like a 455 that doesnt make power past 5000 rpms then you have to keep it in the range that it likes to make the most power. seems like everybody back in the day assumed more rpms meant more power. maybe for chevys but not pontiac, buick, olds. you have to take advantage of the monster torque, not stick in the big cams and try to run it like a chevy.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

I said I didn't take it to the strip, too far of a drive and I didn't have a trailer. It would pull 4,000 RPMs at 55 MPH, it was stupid quick,but was terrible on the highway. No power steering or brakes and a 4 speed, not very fun to drive. I found a cherry 66 Chevelle, sold my 66 350 Chevelle, sold the 67 396 SS. Delivered the 67 to the buyer and found my cherry 66 sitting in his yard, damnit, he bought it!! He was a northern guy picking up southern cars.
Pontiac, Olds and Buicks are all torque monsters.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

im not knocking anybodys car im just saying that you can take a properly set up "stock" car and outrun a wildly modified car if the modifications dont compliment each other. 300hp will outrun 600hp if 600hp is spinning, over reving and whatever.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

sounds like the chevelle was definitely fun to drive. :cheers


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## Chris Holabaugh (Jan 18, 2009)

The best thing about having a 454 is that the paint will not burn off the heads.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Chris, that sums up this entire thread perfectly. There is nothing else to say!


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

66tempestGT said:


> sounds like the chevelle was definitely fun to drive. :cheers


It was set up for the 1/8th mile and would of probably went low 7s. 4.88s are fun, but bad on the street and with the dual 4s I got 3 MPG! I put a holley 750 on it and got 9 MPG, not too bad. The dual Carter carbs were junk, even after rebuilds. But this was back in 90, I paid $2750 for the car ready to go, sold it for $3200. And it was a real SS 396 4 speed car.


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

Eh I have made over 540 hp with a $2700 455 using the stock rods and ported iron heads. it lived 7 years of bracket racing and street beatings, and the only thing that killed it was some lead shot in the oil pan that found its way to the #7 rod journal. It ran high 11s with a stock converter, hyd cam, and an HEI. It was in a 3750lb Formula and I had $5k in the entire car. There was one 454 that could beat me in a similar weight car, he had a solid roller, aftermarket heads, more gear, and 3500 stall. He ran two tenths quicker than I did with my 455. There were no 350s around with similar money spent on them that ran any faster than 13.5s. That is what the $1700 455 in the 4000lb + 70 GTO did with 2.93 gears and a stock converter.

If you build it right, dont rev it higher than it needs to be, and avoid people who want to sabotage your engine, you can build a silly quick car with a 400 or 455 for not much money. It is easy to spend lots of money on the wrong parts and go slow. Sure you can build a stock chevy for cheap, but you still have a low powered grenade, not something that will move a heavy car into the 11s without lots of gear and stall.

LSx engines = big $$$ but the price is coming down. They do make very nice power though, and they are closer to the Pontiac design than they are to the sbc. I love my LS1 but I wont be dropping it into the GTOs or the 2nd gen Trans Ams, and no chevy will ever find its way under the hood of my 72 455 HO Formula.

Chevies make nice truck and boat engines if you dont mind burning lots more fuel than you need to. They can be made into race engines with enough aftermarket parts. I like the 454 in my 76 C10, but the 400 it had from a 71 Gran Prix pulled better and used less fuel. I needed the 400 for the 65 GTO so the truck got the 454.

In the street car realm it is damn tough to beat a well built 455 be it Olds, Buick or Pontiac. The biggest problem is traction with a 455 built right.

Now you wanna talk small blocks, I will take a 351 Cleveland over any chevy any day.


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

66tempestGT said:


> if i had a pontiac 455 and 4.88 gears i would want it to have 40" tires. its all in the combination. if you have an engine like a 455 that doesnt make power past 5000 rpms then you have to keep it in the range that it likes to make the most power. seems like everybody back in the day assumed more rpms meant more power. maybe for chevys but not pontiac, buick, olds. you have to take advantage of the monster torque, not stick in the big cams and try to run it like a chevy.


This.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Thumpin', you pretty much hit the nail on the head. In the real world,on the street, I have never seen a 454 beat any of the 455's. I have seen a lot of 454's where a lot of money was spent on the wrong parts and they went slow. Ditto the 396's. I had a friend with a '66 SS396 Chevelle with a 2 speed auto and a 3.31 gear run me with my stock '65 389, 4bbl 2 spped auto '65 GTO....(this was in 1980)....he lost SOOOOO bad that he got rid of the Chevelle and got a '67 GTO!!!! I've ridden in a friends '70 442 with the 455, and that car was literally a rocketship.....like a Pontiac, it did not stop pulling. I wonder what engine the guy that started this thread is gonna put into his car???


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Thumpin455 said:


> Eh I have made over 540 hp with a $2700 455 using the stock rods and ported iron heads. it lived 7 years of bracket racing and street beatings, and the only thing that killed it was some lead shot in the oil pan that found its way to the #7 rod journal. It ran high 11s with a stock converter, hyd cam, and an HEI. It was in a 3750lb Formula and I had $5k in the entire car.


What kind of "iron" heads, D or round port? How big of a cam? What rear gear?



geeteeohguy said:


> I wonder what engine the guy that started this thread is gonna put into his car???


I just rebuilt and installed the original 350 in my 70 Lemans, it runs like crap, vac leak. For my 90 454 SS truck I built a 4 bolt 468 BBC with worked LS-5 heads, Vette has an LS-1 and 66 cloan is getting a decent looking 69 400 that I just picked up, and a turbo 400.


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

Heads are 670s street ported by Butler. Cam was an UltraDyne 288/296 hydraulic and 1.5:1 rockers. Rear gear to keep it in the low 12s for bracket racing without a roll bar was 4.10. It picked up half a second with 3.42 gears, but with the 4.10 gear it would be all done by 1000ft and thus ran slower since it wasnt pulling for the last 300-500 feet of track. It ran a best of [email protected] with the 4.10 gears. The converter was a stock 13" unit with a 1900 stall. On McCreary tires it would lift the front tire about two inches while moving the tire on the rim about an inch and a half on every launch. Here it is waxing a buddy's 98 LS1 Camaro. It only ran a 7.90 on that run, it was a very hot humid night. 

The Formula has a very nasty 400 in it now, that one cost me less than $8k to build and it came from Butlers too, so it isnt exactly a low buck engine. Think 700hp pump gas stroker with only 467 ci, and think of what it would cost to do the same with a chevy. 

old ugly :: Bird790.flv video by AuCinaoaMie - Photobucket

It got 13mpg highway with the 4.10 gears and an 850 Holley. I am using those heads on another 455 with flat top slugs to run on ethanol. A set of 48s is going on another 455 block with a 4.5" crank and it will look like a stock 350, it is going in this sleeper T37. It will be sure to stomp some high dollar rats and mice all while looking like it wont run a 14 falling off a cliff.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Nice builds Thumpin, guess you are in tight with Butler's. Sounds like they figured it out, wow. What lift on the cam in the Firebird, I still can't believe the numbers, but saw it on the video.
My buddies got a 82 GMC Sonoma that he bought new. He has it right, it's street driven, on pump gas, drives it to the strip and runs 7.22 NA, and 6.70s on the bottle. It's got a healthy 383 stroker, aluminum heads and all the right parts, he probably has a ton of money in it, never asked.


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

The old iron 455 had right around .488/.500 lift, just a grunt motor in a heavy car. The new engine in the bird has almost .700 lift and its a solid roller. 330cfm Edelbrock heads, Eagle/Ross bottom end, and a Victor/1050 up top. Should be good for mid to high nines with a 3000lb race weight, if I can ever get it to hook.

I wouldnt say I am in tight with Butler, I just know what I need to spend money on, and what I can use again. Since I was in Kuwait when I ordered the last engine I bought the block and stuff from them rather than using one of mine. So it was almost $1000 more than if I had rebuilt one of my cores. I havent seen many chevy engines that make similar power for similar money, somehow the chevy always costs more than the engines I am running. It must be all the aftermarket stuff they need.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Jetstang, I meant I wondered what engine the guy with the '74 GTO ended up using. Before the thread got crazy and was moved over here where we could all take the gloves off and TCB over this 455 vs 455 thang. I am truly sorry that your 350 runs like crap. I am certain it will not run like crap forever, as you wouldn't stand for it. Rock on!!


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

On my 350, I went to take the carb off to check it out and see where my vac leak was, I took off the front carb bolts and the carb popped up a little, WTF? I checked the intake, and some idiot, me, painted the intake without cleaning the gasket surface. Cleaned it up, installed an electric choke on the edelbrock, bolted it back up and the car runs like a champ! 
A little more disassembly, and maybe throw the AC back on it and it's off to paint Monday, game on!


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

I still think a BBC LOOKS better than a SB Pontiac, 326-455..
Does the Pontiac have considerably longer stroke than the BBC, is that the difference? Long stroke, small bore.


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

454 has a 4" stroke, 455 has a 4.21" stroke. There is no small block Pontiac, unless you count the 301 pos. You gotta admit this is a badass lookin engine...


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Thumpin, that is a sweet looking motor, air cleaner may be a little restrictive. I know all Ponchos are the same size, just stirring the pot. 301 is a pos with the spaghetti crank.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

no paint burnin off them exhaust ports.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

I love the Patina look on the water pump pulley and alternator.. $2500 for heads and you cant fess up $5 for a can of semi gloss black, priorities, priorities..:confused


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