# What should I pay for this 67 GTO ?



## Indetrucks (Apr 2, 2013)

Came across the opportunity to pick up a 1967 GTO. I know a little about these cars but am a classic car guy.

New to this forum and wanted to pick the brains of the pro's out there.
I understand it's worth what I'm willing to pay, but what would you pay?

Here's what I know about her thus far:

It's located here in Southern CA and according to the VIN, was built in Freemont, CA.
VIN# 242077Z128102

-Zero rust or rust repairs that I can see or the owner knows about. He has had it for 12 years.
-No accidents
-Not number matching engine
-4 Speed Tranny (not sure if M20 or M21)
-4.11 rear end (unknown if was a dealer installed option)
-Paint 7/10 and interior is new (Painted 12years ago)
-Total Miles on Odo 80,000
-No A/C car
-500 miles on rebuilt 400 engine
-Selling due to health issues (older guy)
-Original Exterior was gold (did not get the data plate numbers)
-Drum brakes all around

Here are some pics.


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## Indetrucks (Apr 2, 2013)

Last pic...

What say you? 

My concerns...
-No center console (I guess that was an option?)
-Engine isn't true to the car and it appears there is a lot up stock stuff under the hood that is missing.
-Would have loved for it to at least have front disc brakes.

Any of this stuff a deal breaker for the GTO guys?


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## KingJacobo (Jul 6, 2011)

What are you looking for? A numbers matching, nearly all original car fresh out of (or well preserved) restoration? Restomod with modern amenities (A/C, disc brakes, nice sound system, etc.) Or a car you don't care so much about the original-ness as long as it looks good, drives good, and is mechanically sound? 

If you want more of the "true" restoration such as matching numbers and are a stickler for details, I'd pass. If you don't care and just want a great cruiser and the nitty gritty details don't bother you, this looks like a great choice. As far as pricing, I couldn't tell you with any degree of certainty. But the motor alone should bring it down as far as value goes.


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## Indetrucks (Apr 2, 2013)

Thanks for the input.

The two options you mention all depend on the price. I can live with a no numbers matching car as long as it's the right price. The stuff out there that is all original fetch between $25k-60k (from what I can see). And I'm not looking to spend that.

However, a car in this condition is worth what? If I buy it, I want to be able to sell it down the road for at least what I paid ya know?

Is this a $10k car? $15k car .. or under $10k? 
I want to be logical when we talk price and understand where the value of the car is.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Nice looking Base optioned Post car, paint and body appear well done and black does not hide anything. Buyers market right now, i would mark it down for non original upholstery too. I would say 15K range if i had to guess and the rest is as well kept. Really hard to judge a car from pictures, need to see trunk and underside. Whats he asking as a starting point?


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## Indetrucks (Apr 2, 2013)

Instg8ter said:


> Nice looking Post car, paint and body appear well done and black does not hide anything. Buyers market right now, i would mark it down for non original upholstery too. I would say 15+ range if i had to guess and the rest is as well kept, need to see trunk and underside. Whats he asking as a starting point?


$18k
Not sure how flexible he is, but I think there is wiggle room.
Just wanna know the facts before I go in and offer less.

What should I shoot for?


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## gotyorgoat (Jun 19, 2011)

$15k sounds like a deal that you could feel good about. $18k is probably fair too, as long as you don't need to dump thousands into it. It's all about how much money you would need to put into it to make it the car that you want it to be. If it is already there, I would go for it.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

id say its worth a shot, I would take cash in hand and do a thorough inspection and test drive. Places to look are under the rear deck panel in the trunk at the window channels for rust or previous repairs. same with the usual spots (lower fenders and quarters, floor pan, door sills, etc.), if it's spent its life in SC they should be factory fresh and thats a big plus. Check all the wiring to make sure its not all spliced in. Strong magnet wrapped in a micro cloth will find any deep dent repairs mid panel. Looks well kept, not crazy about the cloth seats and the black block but they are original cores and the backs and trim look nice. It would cost 30K+ to build that car up if you could find an all metal roller (good luck) and did all the work yourself.


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## Indetrucks (Apr 2, 2013)

I'm going to take another peak at it on Sat. 
I'll take more pics of other areas (if I can).

I'll look it over some more.
I would love to pay $15k for it.

Would a center console be easily obtained? Aftermarket or otherwise?
Even if it didn't come with one, I really like the center console look.


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## Indetrucks (Apr 2, 2013)

TO my understanding, post cars were produced way less than the Hard Tops right?
But if I understand right, no post cars are worth more?


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

I agree $15K would be a fair offer, although there were fewer coupes than hardtops, 17's are still more popular and worth more than 07's.

Things in your favor for negotiating the price are;

No console,
No A/C,
Coupe,
Black Block,
Non original block,
Wrong body Color,
Possible a chevy rear end, Pontiac offered the 390:1 or a 433:1,
drum brakes,
wrong interior,
aftermarket wheels,
possible, no PHS documentation.

4-speed consoles are hard to find and expensive,


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## Indetrucks (Apr 2, 2013)

05GTO said:


> I agree $15K would be a fair offer, although there were fewer coupes than hardtops, 17's are still more popular and worth more than 07's.
> 
> Things in your favor for negotiating the price are;
> 
> ...


What is PHS documentation and where does one get it?

Also, thought I read that the 4:11 was a dealer option when a car was ordered with a 3:90 ?


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## KingJacobo (Jul 6, 2011)

PHS is Pontiac Historical Society documentation. It shows factory info of the car you inquire about. I still need to get mine! You get it here, they keep raising prices every few years. Apparently now it costs $65.

http://www.phs-online.com/


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Pontiac Historical Society, they will send a copy of the original order and option sheets for a fee $65.00 i believe. The Coupes were more rare only because the open window styling on the hardtops was so popular. Ever notice most pics you see of a GTO hardtop the windows are all down? A lot were ordered bare bone for street/strip racers as they were lighter and the more rigid platform with the door frames and B-pillar, which may explain the console delete and lack of options. A base Model GTO is still a GTO, the most coveted (The Judge) was originally planned as a stripped down affordable GTO street racer with bright graphics but evolved into something more when marketing got it's hands on it. I love the extra bright work on the post cars and my doors still retain factory gaps and shut with two fingers just like the day it rolled off the line.


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## Indetrucks (Apr 2, 2013)

KingJacobo said:


> PHS is Pontiac Historical Society documentation. It shows factory info of the car you inquire about. I still need to get mine! You get it here, they keep raising prices every few years. Apparently now it costs $65.
> 
> PHS Historic Services


Thanks for that link! If I get a GTO, def. picking up at PHS



Instg8ter said:


> Pontiac Historical Society, they will send a copy of the original order and option sheets for a fee $65.00 i believe. The Coupes were more rare only because the open window styling on the hardtops was so popular. Ever notice most pics you see of a GTO hardtop the windows are all down? A lot were ordered bare bone for street/strip racers as they were lighter and the more rigid platform with the door frames and B-pillar, which may explain the console delete and lack of options. A base Model GTO is still a GTO, the most coveted (The Judge) was originally planned as a stripped down affordable GTO street racer with bright graphics but evolved into something more when marketing got it's hands on it. I love the extra bright work on the post cars and my doors still retain factory gaps and shut with two fingers just like the day it rolled off the line.


Good point. I do enjoy the no post look that's for sure. But the post isn't too bad either


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## Butchman (Mar 24, 2012)

Approx. 81,722 GTO's were made in 1967 and 7,029 were "Post" cars. Post cars or (Coupes) were less expensive to purchase back in the day but still hold good value today. You can purchase a Center Console set up for 67 GTO from some Pontiac Restoration catalogs for $500.00+.


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## leeklm (Mar 11, 2012)

just to throw in my 2 cents... $15-18k would be a reasonable for a 4spd car that appears to be solid and a decent paint job. You could fix up the interior some with correct seat material and a center console, which would dress it up nicely.


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## Indetrucks (Apr 2, 2013)

What's the #1 tell tale sign that the 4spd is original to the car?
Body Tag on the Firewall?


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

Best way to find out all the options that car was born with would be PHS. If you have access to a fax, you could get all that information today.

At the bottom of the body tag you may have numbers and letters. The numbers are the groups and the letters are the options. For a 4 speed, you may see a 2L.


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## Indetrucks (Apr 2, 2013)

68greengoat said:


> Best way to find out all the options that car was born with would be PHS. If you have access to a fax, you could get all that information today.
> 
> At the bottom of the body tag you may have numbers and letters. The numbers are the groups and the letters are the options. For a 4 speed, you may see a 2L.


Thanks for the Tip!


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I got to this party late, but I agree with all the other guys. I think it's about a solid 15k car as it sits. If I bought it, I'd change out the upholstery to factory and drive it. Post coupes are less common because less were made, because they were not popular. The hard top outsold it because it looked better, especially with the windows down. That said, a coupe drives 'tighter' than a hardtop and is stronger and more rattle free. Excellent cars. I would get a PHS and make a cash offer. 15k is a good deal. 13k would be a steal. If this were a 'correct' all numbers matching car, it would be 30k plus in its current condition.


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## Indetrucks (Apr 2, 2013)

So prior to purchasing this, you guys thinking drop the $65 on a PHS?

Can a PHS be a 1 day turnaround?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

For a bit extra, they can fax it to you pretty much immediately. Yes, in this day and age, I would do it. Cheap insurance. Like getting a house inspection prior to purchase. Again, it looks like a really solid car. If it comes back as an original 4 speed '67 GTO, you did very well. Good luck.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I'm going to be a little contrary here --- coming from my years of experience working with my Dad on his used car lot, there are some cars that you can look at and get a feeling for what they are. This one to me looks like "one of those" -- a car that has been meticulously cared for and maintained for a long time. The non-factory changes are indications of someone who planned to keep the car forever and built it to be what he wanted, not to please someone else. Worrying about engine paint color and interior fabric on a car like this is nit-picking. If I had the spare cash myself right now, I'd already be on the way to bring this one home with me at his asking price.

Bear


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## jmt455 (Mar 26, 2012)

I think his $18k asking price is fair, based on what is visible and assuming there are no rusty surprises in the floor/frame/trunk.

If it's all as solid as it looks in these photos and you can get that car for $15k, I think you're making a great buy.


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## Indetrucks (Apr 2, 2013)

Will let ya'll know what happens on Sat after I show up with a cash offer and look it over some more.


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## 67GTO4SPD (Oct 4, 2012)

PHS can do same day service (via fax) for $80. You can avoid filling out the form by simply calling them and giving them the VIN and they can process a credit/debit card over the phone. I had my last one faxed back in about 20 mins. They will still mail you the complete packet in about a week. 
Thanks to PHS, there is no faking a Pontiac, and its well worth getting the documentation.


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## Indetrucks (Apr 2, 2013)

Got the PHS back today....

Got the fax back on the GTO. Options as listed...
Drum Roll...

Radio – Pushbutton & Electric Antenna
Seat Belts Custom – Front & Rear
Rally Gauge Cluster & Tachometer *-----what does this consist of?*
Delux Wheel Discs *----What is this?*
Custom Sports Steering Wheel *-------is this what looks like is on it based from the pics?*
Power Steering
Glass Soft Ruv??? (illegible) –Windshield Only 
Ride & Handling Package – Spring, shocks, & stabilizer bar
Safe-T-Trac Rear Axle *----YAY!*
4 Speed Manual wide ratio – Fully Synchronized
3.55 Rear End
Std 400ci 4bbl carb. (W) engine code – CA model (WW6493)
10.75/1 Compression
Exterior Campaign
Interior Gold *----Booooo!*
Label Price $3665.78


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Indetrucks said:


> Rally Gauge Cluster & Tachometer *-----what does this consist of?*
> Delux Wheel Discs *----What is this?*
> Custom Sports Steering Wheel *-------is this what looks like is on it based from the pics?*
> Glass Soft Ruv??? (illegible) –Windshield Only


Rally guage is Tach, clock and speedo indash
Wheel Discs are Hubcaps
Thats a Grant aftermarket steering wheel on it, see if he still has the original they are worth a few hundred dollars and cracks can be repaired.
Glass soft is tinted front windshield


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I answered this on the other forum...and will say again that this car is probably a screaming deal at 18k.


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## jsgoatman (Mar 5, 2013)

The car looks like a deal at 15K....offer 13K and go up from there...have the Bennie Franklins ($100.00 bills) with you...money talks!! The interior can be put back to stock easy enough...they now make re pop console bases and tops....Buy it to enjoy it! Even 18K wouldn't be alot to pay for all the fun you will have, and all the great people you will meet in the car hobby! PHS doc was the best thing to do! Good luck!!!


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## rt66gto (Feb 14, 2013)

I got to this party late but, inquiring minds are dyin' to know . . . . didja grab her up? Either way, here's wishing you the best o' success (and, hopfully, a hearty and sincere congratulations)!!!!!!!!!


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## Indetrucks (Apr 2, 2013)

rt66gto said:


> I got to this party late but, inquiring minds are dyin' to know . . . . didja grab her up? Either way, here's wishing you the best o' success (and, hopfully, a hearty and sincere congratulations)!!!!!!!!!


Today... will find out today :willy:


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Well??????


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## Indetrucks (Apr 2, 2013)

Ok, so I need to make a decision. Here's what I found out...

Visual:
Black plate CA car with ZERO rust. I looked everywhere.

Right front fender has a nice dent on the top (which is why the hood appears to be "higher" than the fender in that pic). The car will need a body shop as the dent is more like a pinch where the hood and fender meet. The hood itself is in decent condition but I imagine it will need to be sprayed when the fender is repaired.

All other aspects of the body was fine. There was signs of a left front fender bender, as I could see filler coming from the inside where the holes were to pull a dent. The other body panels were clean.

Headliner great, dash great, carpet had a tear near the shifter. Seats... nice but not correct material (as we already knew).
The paint is a 10footer. I'd give it a 6/10. Def. 12 years old and although it still shines, it's got a few flaws.

Left headlight rings/bezel cracked
Hood missing the emergency safety latch/catch.

The radiator support / front valence? looked like it was painted with a brush and wasn't the cleaners one I've seen. I checked where the front fenders meet the rad. support and couldn't see any obvious signs of damage or poor body shop craftsmanship.

Misc moldings needed attention as some were a bit bend up or not flush/attached right (inner fender well area)

Wood paneling on the dash was peeling at all corners. Also, the heater/fan control section of the dash was NOT wood, but was polished (still had the same texture as the black dash that was under the wood paneling). 

Tach inop (he said it just needed connecting)

The hood itself shut fine but it recessed a bit far in the front. Both left and right rubber stops were missing (the adjustment bolts were there, but the rubber stoppers were not). This caused the hood to shake pretty good on the test drive.

Test Drive:
Oil pressure gauge was pegged over 90psi at idle. When I turned the car off it was resting at 40/50.
Temp gauge works and was steady at 180. Let it idle a while and it eventually climbed 5deg. There is an electric fan in front of the radiator which had a manual switch (I never turned it on as I wanted to see how hot it would get)
Speedo worked, blinkers, lights, etc worked.
Started good, idled good. Shifted good, clutch felt fine. 
Brakes stopped the car decent (drums) and straight.

I got on it pretty good through all four gears. Def 4:10 rear end and posi traction.
It didn't "impress me" but it was decent for a big old heavy car. He said it wasn't built for speed, just a mild build. 500 miles on engine. Edelbrock intake, Demon carb etc.

He had a lot of spare stuff. Like new gauge faces, new wood paneling etc.

From what I posted, is this car worth $14k?


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## Indetrucks (Apr 2, 2013)

Additional:
Doors shut great, firm and didn't have play.
Weather stripping all around was nice and looked new-ish
Trim around the windows was all there and good.

(will post as I remember things)


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

i would say thats still a good deal, thats why its hard to judge one from pics alone. Rad support was probably brushed with POR15, thats any easy fix. Hood and fender will probably set you back a grand for body paint and re-align, if its got a good BC/CC paint job (3-4 coats of clear) a lot of imperfections can be clear sanded out. Misc. stuff can be fixed while you learn and enjoy the car.


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## Indetrucks (Apr 2, 2013)

Picked up the car yesterday. 
$14k

Thanks for the advice guys! Now it's time to spend my kids college fund! 

(wait, I don't have kids)


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

You stole the car. You did a very thorough inspection, and found the usual stuff, but still, you got about an 18-20k car, IMO....a real 4 speed GTO for a Lemans/Tempest price. Not too shabby. As an aside, a Pontiac GTO with a stick and 4:10s should snap your head off. My 3.36 geared 4speed '65 GTO does, and it's a 389. Something is probably mis-matched in the engine combo...which gives you something to play with later. Was this an original black car? What's the paint code?


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

congratulations and welcome to the club...yep thats a 20K car when done and the market comes back up.


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## Indetrucks (Apr 2, 2013)

geeteeohguy said:


> You stole the car. You did a very thorough inspection, and found the usual stuff, but still, you got about an 18-20k car, IMO....a real 4 speed GTO for a Lemans/Tempest price. Not too shabby. As an aside, a Pontiac GTO with a stick and 4:10s should snap your head off. My 3.36 geared 4speed '65 GTO does, and it's a 389. Something is probably mis-matched in the engine combo...which gives you something to play with later. Was this an original black car? What's the paint code?


Car came with 3:55 from the factory (according to the PHS). Although, they say the 4:10 was an option from the dealer. But doubt that it was a factory install. Reminds me of my 68 Chevelle 4spd car from back in the day. 

Shift from 1st to 3rd. haha Skip second when cruising.

sadly it's "was" Campaign with Gold interior car.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Mine had 3.90`s when I got it and I was afraid of taking it out of town it rev`d so high. Swapped it out for the 3.55 it originally came with and I think the car is actually faster as it feels like it has longer legs between the gears. I couldn't imagine 4.10s on the highway!!


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## Indetrucks (Apr 2, 2013)

Rukee said:


> Mine had 3.90`s when I got it and I was afraid of taking it out of town it rev`d so high. Swapped it out for the 3.55 it originally came with and I think the car is actually faster as it feels like it has longer legs between the gears. I couldn't imagine 4.10s on the highway!!


60MPH the whole way home. The tach was not connected but it sounded to be around 3k RPM. 
At least that's what I was comfy driving at for an extended period of time.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

I bet it was over 4k.


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## Indetrucks (Apr 2, 2013)

LOL .. maybe
I watched the gas gauge dropping in real time.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The good thing is that you can gear up to as tall as a 3.36 ring and pinion with your present carrier. That's what I did with my '65. Went from a 55mph cruising speed to a 70mph cruising speed.


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## leeklm (Mar 11, 2012)

congrats on the buy. You did well!!! I am a little jealous... My car had 3.90 gears in an "olds 12 bolt" when I got it, and quickley put a different rear in with 3.36 gears. Much more enjoyable on the hwy.


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## 67GTO4SPD (Oct 4, 2012)

Rukee said:


> I bet it was over 4k.


60 MPH with 4.10's would be around 3200 RPM with 26" diameter tires.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Yeah, but it _seems_ like 4k. And it's a great way to suck gas. Might as well punch a hole in your fuel tank. I've said it before (over and over) and I'll say it again: 4:10 gears were 'ok' when the speed limit was 55 and gas was a buck a gallon. But even then, not needed with a Pontiac's massive torque. In today's world, on the street, they su----aren't very user friendly.


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## Indetrucks (Apr 2, 2013)

Other than the purchase of this car, I wont be driving it on the freeway (highway).

I live on PCH in Southern CA where all the car shows/cruises are available via surface streets. Speed limit is rarely over 45MPH.

Of all the stuff I need to do, the rear end ratio is way at the back of the list.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Sounds great. With your engine dialed in, you'll have a super fun car to drive in your local area. It's all about how you use your car, and it sounds like it will be fine. (cost effective, too!!)


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