# 67 HO 360 Hp engine



## HiVolts (Jan 27, 2020)

All,

I‘m looking at a 67. Owner states it’s a true HO option car instead of the 335 hp. How do I verify? Was it actually an option without R/A?

Also, would it be worth more? It does have stock headers..

Thanks


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

HiVolts said:


> All,
> 
> I‘m looking at a 67. Owner states it’s a true HO option car instead of the 335 hp. How do I verify? Was it actually an option without R/A?
> 
> ...


You order and purchase the PHS factory documents for the car to confirm, never take anyone's word for it. Then confirm the block letter code, the EUN which may/should be on the documents and block, and all casting numbers and date codes.

1967 used a 1 year only factory header on the left side. The exhaust manifold should also have a casting code - used on HO and RA engines.

Only 3 engines available for '67, 335HP, 360HO, and Ram Air.

Most info can be found online.


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## HiVolts (Jan 27, 2020)

Thank you!


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

HiVolts said:


> All,
> 
> I‘m looking at a 67. Owner states it’s a true HO option car instead of the 335 hp. How do I verify? Was it actually an option without R/A?
> 
> ...


The engine has a code like YS, WS its on the front side look it up online it will tell you where to look and what it is when you find it. I mean the owner should know if hes touting a HO 360hp engine, My las 67 had a HO engine


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## maw2078826 (May 1, 2020)

Many years ago I bought a 1967 Pontiac Catalina from a friend for parts, the original motor in it was a "YS" block, two bolt main with the mild 066 cam. My 1967 GTO's original motor was the 335 H.P. "WT" block (4-speed) which also was a two bolt main with the 067 cam. I fail to see the difference between the two blocks, both came stock with big valve heads and 10.75:1 compression ratio (although the "YS" heads had pressed in studs)...Regardless, either block can be built up to produce more horse power.


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

I believe the HO motor has hydraulic lifters is he difference no sure though


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## maw2078826 (May 1, 2020)

Yes...I'm not aware of any mechanical lifters utilized in Pontiac V-8 H.O.motors, (except for perhaps race applications with the 421 motor)..all were hydraulic to my knowledge. However, Pontiac did offer hydraulic high ball lifter #5232265 from 1961 -to- 1975 for Police,& most H.O. and Ram Air applications. the best one was for the 1969-70 Ram Air IV -or- S.D. motors #5232675...none of which are still available unless you find NOS for a premium. Solid (or mechanical lifters) which I have run in the past, are a true pain in the a$$...noisy as hell, constant adjustments must be made while engine is running...oil all over the place...no thanks...modern hydraulics run just as well.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

maw2078826 said:


> Yes...I'm not aware of any mechanical lifters utilized in Pontiac V-8 H.O.motors, (except for perhaps race applications with the 421 motor)..all were hydraulic to my knowledge. However, Pontiac did offer hydraulic high ball lifter #5232265 from 1961 -to- 1975 for Police,& most H.O. and Ram Air applications. the best one was for the 1969-70 Ram Air IV -or- S.D. motors #5232675...none of which are still available unless you find NOS for a premium. Solid (or mechanical lifters) which I have run in the past, are a true pain in the a$$...noisy as hell, constant adjustments must be made while engine is running...oil all over the place...no thanks...modern hydraulics run just as well.


Pontiac engines use hydraulic lifters. The early Super Duty 389/421 engines used solid lifters, but these were basically a factory race engine AND had no warranty. Pontiac would not warranty any engine having solid lifters, one reason Pontiac used hydraulic lifters - along with no need for adjustments like a solid lifter. Also, the non-production RA V used a solid lifter cam.

The '67 335HP & HO use the same 2-bolt block along with the same crank, rods, pistons, etc..

They both have the same "advertised" 10.75 compression, but are actually more like 10.5.
335HP @ 5,000 RPM 441TQ @ 3,400 RPM
360HP @ 5,100 RPM 438TQ @ 3,600 RPM
335HP Auto uses the "066" cam. Manual uses the "067"
360HP Auto/Manual uses the "068" cam
Both use the same hydraulic "standard" lifters
Both use the "670" closed chamber head - last year for this.
Both used the same distributor and specs
Automatic used Q-jet #7027262
Manual trans used Q-jet #7027263
335HP uses standard type exhaust manifolds
360HP is said to use the same Ram Air exhaust manifolds (but this may/may not be true)

The RA IV and 455SD used the "limited travel" lifters.


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## maw2078826 (May 1, 2020)

Jim...Would the hydraulic lifter with the "limited travel" for the 1969-70 Ram Air IV & S.D.be the 5232675?


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

*Can anyone read this 65 VIN plate and tell me if its a GTO or Tempest?*


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Pontiac engines use hydraulic lifters. The early Super Duty 389/421 engines used solid lifters, but these were basically a factory race engine AND had no warranty. Pontiac would not warranty any engine having solid lifters, one reason Pontiac used hydraulic lifters - along with no need for adjustments like a solid lifter. Also, the non-production RA V used a solid lifter cam.
> 
> The '67 335HP & HO use the same 2-bolt block along with the same crank, rods, pistons, etc..
> 
> ...


You seem to be an educated Goat man can you tell me if this 1965 VIN plate says Tempest or GTO?


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## maw2078826 (May 1, 2020)

Droach6498 said:


> View attachment 138788
> *Can anyone read this 65 VIN plate and tell me if its a GTO or Tempest?*


The GTO was an option in 1965, didn't become its' own model until 1966 which would be "42"...that's why so many Tempests (37) have been reconfigured into GTO's over the years. I believe yours was built the 3rd week in January (1C) sometimes there will be an additional number even showing what shift. I don't have the code references to explain your 1965 trim codes, seat type & paint, the rest are various option codes...all (or most) of this can be obtained via Pontiac Historical Services...or perhaps Jim will know all of them off the top of his head, he and Old Man taylor are a wealth of GTO knowledge.


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

I have the restoration guide and it states 65 gto was an 8 cylinder car, tempest a 6 cylinder, the GTOs had 1 digit and Tempest a 6 digit. Im not sure if that 6 in the VIN tag means 6 cylinder or not


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

Thats the Fisher Body Trim Tag, Not the VIN which will be on the front door post.

Since this is a Fremont car it will not have the 5C GTO Accessory code. Nothing on the Trim Tag or VIN will designate it as a GTO. You need the PHS documents

23737 - LeMans Hardtop
1C - Built 3rd week of Jan 65
BF - Fremont CA Factory
A49 - Seat Belts
B70 - Padded Dash
213 (30) - Black Bucket Seat Interior
HH A - Palmetto Green top and Bottom (HH) with Starlight Black Wheels (A)


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

Droach6498 said:


> I have the restoration guide and it states 65 gto was an 8 cylinder car, tempest a 6 cylinder, the GTOs had 1 digit and Tempest a 6 digit. Im not sure if that 6 in the VIN tag means 6 cylinder or not


Almost; The majority of Tempests and LeMans were built with the V8 (1) so you really can't go by that as an indicator for Tempest, LeMans or GTO


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

O52 said:


> Thats the Fisher Body Trim Tag, Not the VIN which will be on the front door post.
> 
> Since this is a Fremont car it will not have the 5C GTO Accessory code. Nothing on the Trim Tag or VIN will designate it as a GTO. You need the PHS documents
> 
> ...


I have a pic of the PHS doc hard to read though bad angle


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

Here is my Fremont data plate. No way to tell it is a GTO, but I can guarantee it since I bought it new.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

Droach6498 said:


> I have a pic of the PHS doc hard to read though bad angle


Lets see it and hopefully we'll be able to make it out


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Droach6498 said:


> I have the restoration guide and it states 65 gto was an 8 cylinder car, tempest a 6 cylinder, the GTOs had 1 digit and Tempest a 6 digit. Im not sure if that 6 in the VIN tag means 6 cylinder or not


As stated, the GTO was an option on the Lemans. The base model for all is the Tempest, and this is why you will sometimes see something like total production of "Tempest" cars manufactured. There is the Tempest, Tempest Custom, Lemans, and Lemans with the GTO option.

Engines were the inline 6 cyl which is the factory base line engine for theTempest line of cars, then the optional/base 326CI in 2 Bbl and an optional HO 4 Bbl, and the base 389CI 335HP for the GTO option and optional 389CI 360HP Tri-Power.

Looking at V8 numbers, 77.1% of all Tempest models had a V8 which includes the GTO option. All GTO's had a V8. So the total production of the Tempest line was 307,083 of which 236,760 had a V8. 182,905 of the 307,083 cars were the Lemans line to include the GTO Option. The number of GTO's that I have totals for are HT- 55,722, Post - 8,319, Conv - 11,311 for a GTO optioned Lemans total of 75,352 putting the total Tempest, Tempest Custom, & Lemans (non-GTO optioned) models with a V8 (326CI) at 48,826.

The *Pontiac* and *Kansas City *plants used the Five Group Accessory coding system which will be listed on the bottom of the data plate. The GTO option will be listed as a *5N* with the ACC. codes.

Fremont and Baltimore have no way of ID'ing 64 and 65 Goats, but the PHS documents should let you know - it will provide the engine code, which if nothing else, should ID the GTO option as the GTO option used the 389CI 335HP, code WT/YS, and 360HP Tri-Power codes WS/YR. Then you can go from there as the base trans was the 3-speed manual, then ST-300 2-speed auto, and 4-speed manual. The base rear axle is another means to possibly confirm the engine/trans type. Comparing casting date codes found on the major engine parts to your car's assembly date can be another clue - they are generally close within reason, but there can be exceptions.

As you can see, this is why it is easy to 'fake' a 1964/65 GTO because it was an option and if you don't have the PHS documents, or original documents, a person can be easily taken if they don't have the knowledge or the needed documents to confirm the car is indeed a GTO optioned car.


Droach6498 said:


> I have the restoration guide and it states 65 gto was an 8 cylinder car, tempest a 6 cylinder, the GTOs had 1 digit and Tempest a 6 digit. Im not sure if that 6 in the VIN tag means 6 cylinder or not


As stated, the GTO was an option on the Lemans. The base model for all is the Tempest, and this is why you will sometimes see something like total production of "Tempest" cars manufactured. There is the Tempest, Tempest Custom, Lemans, and Lemans with the GTO option.


Engines were the inline 6 cyl which is the factory base line engine for theTempest line of cars, then the optional/base 326CI in 2 Bbl and an optional HO 4 Bbl, and the base 389CI 335HP for the GTO option and optional 389CI 360HP Tri-Power.


Looking at V8 numbers, 77.1% of all Tempest models had a V8 which includes the GTO option. All GTO's had a V8. So the total production of the Tempest line was 307,083 of which 236,760 (77.1%) had a V8. 182,905 of the 307,083 cars were the Lemans line which includes the GTO Option. The number of GTO's that I have totals for are HT- 55,722, Post - 8,319, Conv - 11,311 for a GTO optioned Lemans total of 75,352. The total number of non-GTO Lemans cars is 107,553. Using the 77.1% figure of 236,760 Tempest with V8's minus the GTO total of 75,352, the total Tempest, Tempest Custom, & Lemans (non-GTO optioned) models with a V8 (326CI) comes up at 161,408 cars - making a lot of Tempest line cars prime candidates for a 389CI drop-in swap/conversion.


The Pontiac and Kansas City plants used the Five Group Accessory coding system which will be listed on the bottom of the data plate. The GTO option will be listed as a 5N with the ACC. codes.


Fremont and Baltimore have no way of ID'ing 64 and 65 Goats, but the PHS documents should let you know - it will provide the engine code, which if nothing else, should ID the GTO option as the GTO option used the 389CI 335HP, code YS/WT (54,805 produced), and 360HP Tri-Power codes YR/WS (20,547 produced). Then you can go from there as the base trans was the 3-speed manual, then optional ST-300 2-speed auto, and optional 4-speed manual. The base rear axle is another means to possibly confirm the engine/trans type. Comparing casting date codes found on the major engine parts to your car's assembly date can be another clue - they are generally close within reason, but there can be exceptions.


As you can see, this is why it is easy to 'fake' a 1964/65 GTO because it was an option and if you don't have the PHS documents, or original documents, a person can be easily taken if they don't have the knowledge or the needed documents to confirm the car is indeed a GTO optioned car.


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

Droach6498 said:


> The engine has a code like YS, WS its on the front side look it up online it will tell you where to look and what it is when you find it. I mean the owner should know if hes touting a HO 360hp engine, My las 67 had a HO engine


I have the Pontiac Restoration guide it has all years engine codes if you still need it.I looked up a 1967 428 YS 365hp. I didnt even know a 67 had a 428, its for sale.$40k. The guide says a 400 YS was automatic 350 hp


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

The 428 was an option on the big cars from 67-69. It was never an option on the GTO. In 1970 it was replaced by the 455.


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

Thanks yeh I never heard of a goat with a 428. Its for sale on ebay $40k real nice car 4 speed.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

I have one with a 428, but I put it in myself.


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

Would you like to rebuild a 400 for me?


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

Me?


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

tongue in cheek as Im guessing your in the east coast Im in Nor Cal about 15 miles east of Berzerkley. But Im hoping to win a bid on a 65 with a 400 and I would like to rebuild I just dont have any experiance. My thing is construction.Ive looked and owned many books on how to its really confusing as they tend to stray I need one that says you do this thern this then this etc.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

Droach6498 said:


> tongue in cheek as Im guessing your in the east coast Im in Nor Cal about 15 miles east of Berzerkley. But Im hoping to win a bid on a 65 with a 400 and I would like to rebuild I just dont have any experiance. My thing is construction.Ive looked and owned many books on how to its really confusing as they tend to stray I need one that says you do this thern this then this etc.


I'm in San Diego. You're welcome to contact me if you have any questions or issues. I've never built any engines for anyone but myself, but I've helped a lot of people.


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

OH your fairly close, my son is in So Cal Century City when this pandemic is over Im going to visit him. I hope to be driving a 65-67 GTO Ive been trying to buy one for about a year or so now, lots of Chevells not alot of GTOs with 4 speed. Do you know of any good books other than Rocky Rotella.I had it with my last goat it was OK but like I said he kind of strays talking of stories.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

Jim Hand’s book is great for a stock or mildly modified engine.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

Let me know when you’re down this way. Maybe we can meet up.


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

Its $135 yikes!


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

I guess it’s out of print.


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