# Spark plugs



## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

So I have about 50-60 miles on my cleaned up plugs after all my timing adjustments, carb adjustments and adding the vacuum advance can, so what's everyone's opinion on the looks of these ? Now I didn't follow the procedure of running at 50 mph then shutting the car off and coasting but I also didn't let it sit idling for any length of time either, had a few WOT runs though. I broke one plug so that's why there's only 7, no aluminum flecks on the electrode anymore but I am concerned about the amount of oil on the threads and seat of the plugs, what's the cause for that? These are NGK Iridum ix plugs BR6FIX 2318 they are one number colder than the originals that Butler put in so don't know if there is an advantage guess I used those when I was running more advance before the vacuum advance can and was afraid of detonation. If you need engine, carb, timing info I can provide that.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Did you put a catch can on the the car? You got a Wagner PCV now, correct?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

No catch can because the breathers have very little oil in them and the dipstick is staying put, yes I have the Wagner with the idle circuit disabled.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

I'm guessing that's why they look a bit wet, no catch can?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Why would there be so much oil in the cylinder if that's where it's coming from and I thought the Wagner evacuated the oil better to be burned through the carb, and I even have the pcv line by itself to the bottom of the carb now.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> Why would there be so much oil in the cylinder if that's where it's coming from and I thought the Wagner evacuated the oil better to be burned through the carb, and I even have the pcv line by itself to the bottom of the carb now.


Are you saying you have both the Wagner Valve and your PCV vavle connected?

If so, I think you have it wrong. The Wagner, if I am correct, replaces the PCV valve, it's not added in addition to.

I don't see an flecks on the insulator in the pics, so a good thing. I would swap back to the 1 step hotter plug again and see if that burns off the oil - and you don't see any flecks.

You could be pushing some oil if the oil rings may have been gapped a little extra, your pistons may have not fully heated up and expanded, or when the engine was broken in, it was not done correctly and the cylinder walls got a little glazed and rings did not seat 100%.

If the engine was built with nitrous in mind, then clearances would be opened up. You will get some oil use. Once the nitrous is used, cylinder temps really soar and things expand quickly. Without building in a little extra clearance to compensate for this, you could scuff pistons, break rings/ringlands, or even seize up a piston. Not saying that is your engine, but just another avenue to think about.

You may also have larger valve-to-valve guide clearances allowing a small amount of oil to flow down the stems and into the cylinders. Again, could be due to aluminum expansion rates versus cast iron - I am no expert on aluminum heads, so it could be very normal.

If you are using a quart every 1,000 miles, I might be concerned.

Only 50-60 miles is not a lot of miles. I'd run it a little more and get a good 250 miles on it and check.

Another thing many do not consider is the air cleaner/filter. You have that custom piece and it could be a restriction in that that big engine and it is sucking real hard through it and also sucking up oil past the rings and/or valves. My 2015 has begun to use oil where it has not. I run it a bit hard at higher RPM's on the highway. 144,000 miles and I maintain/change oil/filter at 3,500 miles. Using 1/2 quart in 500 miles which is not my car. Then I thought to check the K&N air filter. Sure enough, that sucker was slap full of dirt and debris. No doubt it was not allowing the engine to breathe and I was pulling oil past the rings. So I just blew it out, washed it out, and re-oiled it and stuck it in. I will know if this did the trick in 500 miles or so when I check the oil level.

So those are my points on your situation.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

The Wagner is the only pcv valve I'm running, I don't have aluminum heads and don't think Butler built it for nitrous it was going to be a sleeper motor for a Firebird. The air cleaner element is blue but not a K+N I haven't examined the element closely. I probably will switch back to the hotter plugs now that my advance is lowered with the vacuum can. I'm also sending the pictures into that site you recommended.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> The Wagner is the only pcv valve I'm running, I don't have aluminum heads and don't think Butler built it for nitrous it was going to be a sleeper motor for a Firebird. The air cleaner element is blue but not a K+N I haven't examined the element closely. I probably will switch back to the hotter plugs now that my advance is lowered with the vacuum can. I'm also sending the pictures into that site you recommended.



Baaad65 "I thought the Wagner evacuated the oil better to be burned through the carb, and I even have the pcv line by itself to the bottom of the carb now."

PJ - OK, I'm am not sure what you mean by the above? Sounded like you have both connected.

I also thought you had the aluminum heads due in part to the aluminum flecks originally seen on the spark plugs. Interesting.

OK on the hotter plugs since you have dialed in the timing/carb. I would give it a try as mentioned earlier. If you do swap them, then I would do a smaller trip of 50-60 miles and pull the plugs and examine. Then go a longer time of 100-150 and pull them again and examine just to be dead nuts sure you don't see any aluminum flecks.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Yes, the Wagner evacuates the crankcase MUCH better than a standard PCV, and that definitely includes particles of engine oil!!! If you go back and read the PCV thread, you'll understand better. Think of the Wagner as a vacuum and your intake manifold is the suction. Of course, the crankcase vapors are going into the combustion process... and if you don't have a catch can, then whatever oil gets vacuumed out will go into your cylinders as well


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> No catch can because the breathers have very little oil in them and the dipstick is staying put, yes I have the Wagner with the idle circuit disabled.


Your breathers and dipstick have no bearing on whether or not you need a catch can. That is solely based on how ell your PCV is baffled. If you have the PCV in a valve cover, with no baffles and oil splashing all around, then expect that Wagner to vacuum at least a quart a month out of your system. Pontiac valley pans are WELL baffled, but aftermarket valley pans ARE NOT.

I have a Pontiac valley pan, and I still get 1/3 quart in my catch can, every oil change.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> I thought the Wagner evacuated the oil better to be burned through the carb


Yes it does, and without a catch can, that's exactly why you have oil on your plugs.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Yes the Wagner is pulling more crankcase vapors out and so you get more of that black crud into the cylinder. It is mostly burned off but some remains. A catch can will take most of that away. The first time that you drain a catch can you will see the pitch black oil crud and will understand that it is now not going into your intake.

Also like PJ said rings are a tad looser on many builds so not to break them, so you get a little more blow-by. Overall they look pretty good. A bottle of Redline S1 complete fuel system cleaner will help to reduce all that crud. A catch can is best, you can try the hotter plug as well.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

That all makes sense, guess the Wagner is doing a good job. I'm sending the information and plug pictures to that site today but I'll swap out the plugs anyway and look into the catch can but if I could avoid plumbing something else it would be nice. I do have the Pontiac valley pan, maybe I should try enabling the idle circuit in the pcv again and see if that helps, maybe it's pulling to much and bringing in the oil?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

PJ I was saying before I had the brake booster and pcv teed together now they're separated like they should be, booster to manifold, pcv to carb and the aluminum flecks were from the piston I suppose...I wish I had the aluminum heads I was really torn on buying some Kaufman's before the motor went in but just couldn't justify 3000.00 for a few more horses, it would've been mostly for looks and bragging.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Catch cans can be small and easily tucked away…..if your Pontiac valley pan is the original baffled style it will work great with the Wagner.

Radium engineering has a nice 8 ounce catch can with a dipstick, black and you can tuck it away, but it looks good to.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

PJ you asked about valve guide clearance, my head spec sheet shows .0010 intake .0015 exhaust, bronze guides .500 dia. Ferrea valves, Viton seals.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

...rings are TS Classic Race Rings- drop in 4.155 1/16 1/16 3/16 4.155 oil ring


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

So this is what I got back from 4 seconds flat the site PJ recommended when I sent them my motor setup and plug pictures, it sounds like to much advance to me especially the idle advance and they want the stop bushing changed...I'm waiting for another response after I told them I have a vacuum advance limiter....I know they seem like experts at this but what is everyone else's opinion ?


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

I have their book, very smart guys. Racers, and experienced. Lot’s of racers set up with no vac advance and very high base timing and a little Centrifugal timing. Mainly because they eliminate the vac advance.

30 base could be run on a car with radical cam but then your Centrifigal advance is 4 degrees? I think he just wants you to test it that way so he can “read” the spark plugs.

One of the great advantages of a properly set up timing curve is you can set up for say 16 base and 20 Centrifigal. But you add 10 from vac at idle and now you have 26 for idle timing, and total is still 36…..

Gives a nice acceleration and steady running. By running a 30 base with vac advance of 20+ (most vac cans) he wants to see where the mark is on the plug……after 200 miles… 

I think you wind up at the same place eventually,…..34 or 36 total,….10 more from vac….or he may tell you to eliminate vac can.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

And watch out for starter kick back when your initial timing is set high….most modern modules reduce crank timing by 4 degrees or so to eliminate that, but if you go high enough it can still happen.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Well I just spent a lot of time getting this set up like you said and it's running great, I think I'll see what he says in the next email plus I asked him some questions about his instructions I didn't understand completely. Then going to put the hotter plugs in that Butler had in it originally and see if that burns the oil off and maybe stop fooling with it since it's running good.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

It is not that racers are wrong, it’s that they have a purpose of getting every last inch of speed and HP out of the engine to win. When we talk timing here, we are not talking “Racing” we are talking street performance. So better than stock, set for today’s fuels. Lively but efficient.

probably the difference. At the cruise in tomorrow will see lots of cars with “Billet” distributors, no vac advance, timing spun all the way up…..

One guys I see actually has his distributor welded in…. The shop, racing shop did it that way.

But he is not a racer, so go figure.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Wow....well I hope these guys at the site know I'm on the street with this not a strip car only?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Changed the plugs Friday back to the hotter V power NGK runs pretty good but when I got in the driveway I stabbed the throttle a couple times and I have the same hesitation then takes off, am I just being anal and shouldn't worry about what it does sitting still? In my mind if you punch it should respond yesterday, and it wasn't like I sat there and the motor and fuel were too hot. I'm out of ideas I just want good throttle response all the time and I can't put the timing up anymore...or can I ? Maybe I should try the suggestions from the 4 seconds flat website, idk.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> Changed the plugs Friday back to the hotter V power NGK runs pretty good but when I got in the driveway I stabbed the throttle a couple times and I have the same hesitation then takes off, am I just being anal and shouldn't worry about what it does sitting still? In my mind if you punch it should respond yesterday, and it wasn't like I sat there and the motor and fuel were too hot. I'm out of ideas I just want good throttle response all the time and I can't put the timing up anymore...or can I ? Maybe I should try the suggestions from the 4 seconds flat website, idk.


Throw the AFR gauge out the window and start tuning by the seat of your pants feel. How long are you going to fiddle with this?

You need a bigger squirt of gas. Use the 50CC pump on the primary side to give you a larger pump shot. You may have to play with the "squirter" size. This is why I do not like Holley carbs - too many things to adjust and one adjustment affects another until you get it all zero'd in and it looks like it may take you all summer to get the timing & carb right when you could be driving it.

So if you get an initial stumble when you hit the gas, typically means you are sucking in more air and not enough fuel so the pump shot may need to be fattened up. So my suggestion, not knowing Holley carbs, it to use a 50 CC pump, not the 30 CC pump on the big cubes. If it does not work, or is too rich than I believe there are adjustments for that and/or different squirters. Just make 1 change at a time and write it down so if you need to reverse something, you can put it back to where it was.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I never put an afr gauge on it, it feels good driving it and goes like hell from a rolling start, I thought I had this little stumble cured by moving the cam position, maybe I will try a bigger primary squirter nozzle. Maybe it's because the hot humid air and the motor being hot it was over 90 yesterday and it did this last summer in the heat, maybe I should just not worry about what it does sitting still...like I said probably me being anal.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> I never put an afr gauge on it, it feels good driving it and goes like hell from a rolling start, I thought I had this little stumble cured by moving the cam position, maybe I will try a bigger primary squirter nozzle. Maybe it's because the hot humid air and the motor being hot it was over 90 yesterday and it did this last summer in the heat, maybe I should just not worry about what it does sitting still...like I said probably me being anal.


You should be able to get the stumble out which is often a sign that you need a bigger squirt of gas. If you bog the engine, then that is another issue. Bigger cam needs a little more RPM to keep air/fuel moving during the overlap period - that's where you get that nice idle sound. Too low of an RPM and even if the carb is set correct, you may get that stumble because the port velocity/air flow is not moving fast enough. You could try raising your RPM's just for fun and see if it does anything.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

That's true I think it was idling around 750-780, Holley tech finally got back to me and said I can try moving the cam position on the secondarys before I buy new nozzles after they said the secondarys don't cause a hesitation so that's what I did this evening and it feels good in the garage no hesitation but it was pouring out and tornadoes around so no test drive yet.


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