# Electrical - "Mostly" ok



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Yee ha! Well, I fired it up on it's own electrical system for the first time in what... more than 20 years?

"Almost" everything works. Oil pressure, tach - check.

Temperature guage? Not so much - also not sure eveything's 100% with the charging system. 

Temperature gauge: Weird. Goes to below 100 degrees (limit of travel on the needle) and stays there -- until I let the motor idle down, then it creeps down towards the middle of the scale and bounces. It's acting like a tach, sort of - it moves "upward" (colder is "up" on the scale) as soon as I take it off idle and that's where it stays. I know the motor's warming up (duh) and it had to get close to 180 because the cooling fans cycled on and off (yay). I just tried completely disconnecting the lead from the sending unit, and it behaved exactly the same way. Weird.

Another weird thing. GENerator light glows faintly. When I first turn on the ignition, it's almost not on. Seems to gradually increase in intensity over the span of 20-30 seconds, engine on or off, whenever the ignition is on. Battery's new, and I keep it on a battery minder. Voltage is where it ought to be, 12.8 engine off - 14.3 to 14.8 engine running, and I see a dip when I turn on the heater blower on high, then it comes back. Voltage regulator (external) is brand new, got a good one (Echlin) from Napa. I did take the alternator in a few months back and had it tested. It showed to be good. Ground straps from block to body and from body to frame are in place and brand new. 

BRAKE warning light comes on and stays on even if I press the pedal, but I'm mostly hoping that's just because I haven't finished bleeding the brake system yet so I'm not concerned - yet.

Headlight relay for ignition works great  Thanks again Brian.

Does anyone have solutions to these mysteries?

Thanks,
Bear


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

happy to pass it along Bear, i thought it was a pretty slick work around too, saved me the confusion of having to track everything back to the ignition and fuse block (like i am going through now with my brake/turn signals). my brake light stays on too and i am fully bled (just another electrical mystery to track down in time. I too was amazed when i put power to mine that everything lit right up and worked i have found a few splices in the trunk so i think the brake light turn signal thing is not new, next step fuse block, then i may just run new wires rather than tear my interior apart to check the ribbon. Can't wait to see that interior in your car so you can take her for a little spin....you must be getting antsy...i know i was did the whole interior in a 3 day weekend.....:cheers


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

*# 1000*

Well how about 'dat? I think this here right here is my 1000th post on the forum. arty:

I guess it's appropriate for it to be associated with another milestone on my car, even if everything isn't exactly perfect yet.

I went out and shot a video of how things are looking, hopefully someone will be able to recognize the symptoms and point me towards some solutions.

Here's the link to the video:







Thanks guys,

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Bear, glad you're making progress. The dim light with okay charging could be a bad diode in the alternator. I've had it happen. The brake light on all the time could also be caused by this as well. It could also be that your proportioning valve (metering valve) needs to be centered. I think you have a custom system, so I'm not sure if your valve has a button on it or you need to jump thru some hoops in a certain order (bleeding the valve/system) to get the valve to re-center and turn off the light. I'd swap in a different alternator first....or, knowing you, take the old one apart and inspect it really close. Gauges: factory gauges not in use for decades can do strang things when put back into service. I'd personally drive the car a while and see if it settles down. If you don't want to pull the dash or pod later (and want to do it now),Pete Serio is 'the man" when it comes to this stuff. He helped me a lot getting my '65 rally gauges back into shape. As you know, he's on the "other" forum. You're getting close...can't wait to see video of it on the road!!!


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

:agree:agree just one thing to add don't put teflon tape on the water sender. It can cause a bad ground and make the gauge act funny. The engine sounds sweet....Eric


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Eric Animal said:


> :agree:agree just one thing to add don't put teflon tape on the water sender. It can cause a bad ground and make the gauge act funny. The engine sounds sweet....Eric


Oh man! I thought sure that was it because I did indeed use teflon tape. I just checked the housing with my meter though, and it shows zero ohms resistance from the sender housing to ground. If that was it that'd explain why it acts the same wether or not it's connected tho. That part, and also the fact that the reading fluctuates with RPM, is bothering me because I can't quite reason out what woiuld make it do that.

If I understand right, these gauges are basically ammeters, and they work by measuring current flow. The magic is in the sending unit in that it provides a resistance path to ground that varies with either temperature or pressure. Do I have that right? (In that case I guess itd' actually more accurate to call them "receiving" units.. except in physics I learned that dc current actually flows from negative to positive so "sending" would be correct - making my head hurt here :willy

Bear


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

geeteeohguy said:


> If you don't want to pull the dash or pod later (and want to do it now),Pete Serio is 'the man" when it comes to this stuff. He helped me a lot getting my '65 rally gauges back into shape. As you know, he's on the "other" forum.


I just got it in so I'm not excited about pulling it, but if it has to come back out this would be the time to do it. :agree

I don't know Pete, but it sure sounds like I need to! I assume you're talking about PY? Does he go by Pete over there?

Thanks bro... :cheers

Bear


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

is the cluster grounded good to the body? if the guage acts funny when its not connected then its feeding back from something else. could be causing some of the other problems too.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

He goes by Pete Serio on PY, his business address is http://www.precisionpontiac.net. A bad ground or old "leaky" printed circuit board is notorious for causing weird gauge readings.....:confused


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Good point on the cluster ground, 66. Real good point. Bear, yes, you know how the gauges work--actually, as usual,you explained it really well! Just recieving units working on resistors or sometimes thermistors. For a gauge to fluctuate with rpm, that means the resistance or voltage is changing in the circuit as the rpm changes, and doing it rapidly. Shouldn't be. The spring in the gauge could be bad, or it could be a ground or a charging system issue(voltage spiking),or a resistance issue/short in a circuit of sender. Talk to Pete. He may know of a'pattern failure with these gauges and point you right to it!


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## freethinker (Nov 14, 2009)

check your dash grounds


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

66tempestGT said:


> is the cluster grounded good to the body? if the guage acts funny when its not connected then its feeding back from something else. could be causing some of the other problems too.


Well, that's a good thought - I'm assuming the ground is ok because the oil pressure gauge is working fine, and it's in the same housing and uses the same ground as the temp gauge.

@Eric - Pete responded to my query and I think I may be on to something - at least it's logical. I think I may have a temp "switch" and not a temp "sending unit". I'd noticed that the engine harness had a connector that was different from what the connection on the "sending unit" was, but I made it work and moved on. Got to reading and thinking last night about how a gauge works - all the magic is in the sending unit which is really nothing more than a resistor that changes values with temperature. It provides a path to ground of varying resistance, and that variance is what the gauge reads and displays as temp. One of the keys to my half-baked logic is the fact that my temp gauge behaves exactly the same regardless of whether or not the "sending unit" is connected or not. So, if what I have is really a temp switch then it works differently - it's a switch that stays "open" until a certain temp is reached, then it "closes" - it's an off/on proposition, not a variable resistance like a sending unit is. If that's what I really have, then that would explain what the gauge is dong. It sees an infinite resistance, which it displays as the coldest temp - all the time. The variance with RPM is probably just the voltage output from the alternator dropping and changing slightly as the motor idles and the cam makes it start loping. I think I can prove it maybe by robbing an old "volume control" out of something and wiring it so it provides a path to ground for the gauge - if I can make the gauge read that way and vary it by turning the knob, that'll pretty well prove it - at least that's what I'm thinking.

Bear


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Hey Bear, great to see you getting so close I am excited for you. 

LOVE the vid. Can't wait for more updates. And hoping you get the electrical gremlins taken care of soon.

Scott


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Pete is a good man, a real asset to the hobby!!!!!! :cheers Pete where ever you are!


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

It does kinda sound like you have a sending unit for the light, not a gauge. Test the temp wire with a test light to ground, it should read about half way on the gauge. Ground out the temp wire to ground and the gauge should read full hot, disconnected should read full cold.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Well, here's another wrinkle that's weird. I grounded the lead at the sending unit - no change. Disconnected it - no change. Then I noticed something... when I have the temp sending unit lead grounded, the GEN light on the dash is on solid, When I disconnect it, it's off. So I started tracing the circuit on my brand new color poster wiring diagram that arrived today, and what do I find? Turns out that on the plug that connects to the printed curcuit board behind the dash the lead for the temp gauge and the lead for the generator light are directly across from each other. They're also next to each other on the plug where the engine harness connects to the back of the fuse box. Ok, so tie that back to how my gen light was actiing with everything connected yesterday -- it started out dim then seemed to get a little brighter the longer I ran the motor - hmmm - just like it wouild act if it was connected to the resistor circuit that is the temp sending unit. Of course I'll probably have to pull the dash again to test my theory, but I'm beginning to suspect that those two leads are switched, either at the dash plug or on the engine harness/fuse box connection.

Bear


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

That would make sense with how the gen light is getting brighter the longer it runs.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Yes it would, wouldn't it? More evidence - when I turn on the ignition prior to starting the engine, the temp gauge pegs on the hot side --- just like it would do if it was shorted to ground. When the engine is started it pegs on the cold side -- just like it would do with an open circuit. The other weirdness I've been seeing with the GEN light is that it doesn't illuminate when I first turn on the ignition. I think the gauge is seeing the signals that should be going to the GEN light, and vice versa. More and more I'm thinking that these two leads must be backwards in the harness, and I bet it's at the plug that goes into the back of the instrument cluster because those two pins, #1 and #12, are both all the way down at the end of the plug. I betcha they're both plugged into the opposite side of where they should be.

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Bear, can you hook up an ohmmeter and verify the wiring issue without pulling the whole dash? Maybe fab up a couple of pin connectors/probes to see what you get at both ends of the circuit? I think you diagnosed the problem correctly, and you found the glitch. Now it's time to crawl back up under there and work on it.....yech.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Yeee ha! It's all working now :cheers

Found the root cause of the problem which was...

Bear's an idiot... 

Grab your favorite cool beverage, sit back, and I'll tell you the story.

My car originally had warning lights ajd a clock instead of gauges and a tach. Many many moons ago (really - more than 20 years) I bought a set of Rally Gauges and a factory in-dash tach for the car. When I was putting the gauges into my instrument cluster a week or so ago I'd noticed that there was something different about the speedo --- mine has the single "brake" warning light at the bottom but the one that came with the gauge cluster had two lights: a brake warning and a seat belt warning. Hmmmm... well, I looked everything over at the time and everything else looked just like my cluster, so I ignored that, swapped my speedo into the new cluster, and went on my merry way.

Then weird stuff happened as you've been reading over the past few days, and I eventually channeled Sherlock Holmes and arrived at the conclusion that the temp gauge and the gen light were wired backwards due to a defective harness, so all that was needed was to correct the wiring at the plug and things would be good.

This afternoon I pulled the dash enough to get to the plug and found.... everything was wired correctly, Say whut??? This cannot be! So I pulled the instrument cluster out of the dash and then got serious about really examining the traces on the circuit board, the plug, and everything.

Back when I was ordering parts for the dash, fortunately I also bought a new gauge circuit board thinking it would be needed. I didn't use it because the cluster already had one so why bother changing them? I sat down with the cluster, the new replacement circuit board, and really looked them over. Hmmmm... they're different. On the board that was in the car, that came with the "mystery cluster", the traces for the temp gauge and the gen light were in fact reversed from what they were on the board I'd bought. Aha!!! Then I started seeing other stuff. Like an extra trace where the 69 board didn't have one. The circuits for some of the lights were different, then there was that seat belt warning. :willy: I'd missed all those differences when I installed the cluster. ooops.... 

So what I wound up doing was modifying the "mystery cluster" housing so that it would accept a single light bulb for the brake warning in the bottom center of the speedo slot in place of the two offset bulbs that had been there before, installed the correct circuit board, put it all back together - and everything is working now.

arty:

The temp gauge even seems to be reasonably accurate, very close to what my hand-held infrared meter shows when pointed at the thermostat housing.

Yay.

Well, at least I learned something about how the instruments work and feel like I understand this electrical stuff a little better now. 

Bear


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

I love a good story!

Congrats I like the ones that happy endings and where everyone learns a lesson.

Good for you!
:lol:


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## 69Goatee (Aug 14, 2009)

YES!!! Bear, sorry to rejoice in your pain, but I am doing the same thing on on my ride. It is great to hear that you got it all figured out. You just saved me tons of time. I love it when a plan comes together(Hannibal, A-Team).


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## DukeB-120th (Oct 19, 2009)

BearGFR said:


> Then I noticed something... when I have the temp sending unit lead grounded, the GEN light on the dash is on solid, When I disconnect it, it's off.


As soon as I saw this line here, I broke into a huge grin... I immediately knew what was going on as I put 2 and 2 together about the strange behaviors of the GEN light and the temp gauge. Glad you figured it out. Gremlins are tough to chase down! I always enjoy your updates, Bear! 



BearGFR said:


> The magic is in the sending unit in that it provides a resistance path to ground that varies with either temperature or pressure. Do I have that right? (In that case I guess itd' actually more accurate to call them "receiving" units.. except in physics I learned that dc current actually flows from negative to positive so "sending" would be correct - making my head hurt here )


You're overcomplicating things. The "sending unit" is called a sending unit because of the *signal* it sends to the gauge for readout. A device that converts one type of energy to another is a transducer. Here, a temperature is converted to electricity. The transducer in your goat is probably a thermistor, which is a type of resistor whose resistance varies significantly with temperature, more so than in standard resistors. (like you mentioned).

On the subject of current direction:
We know that electricity in wires is carried by electrons zipping around in the wires. Those are negatively charged particles. However, due to the Frenchman named Ampere who basically set the rules, "conventional current" is defined as the movement of positive charge... or basically the opposite of whatever direction the electrons are flowing. Back in the day, they didn't know about subatomic particles, so it was an arbitrary but presently annoying choice on his part. Sometimes, conventional current happens to be in the same direction as the movement of the charge carriers, such as ions moving in an electrolytic solution. :cheers


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Well done, Bear. But if anybody could fix it, you could. You very much understand electricity...at least well enough to fix electrical problems....that's "good enough" in my book!! When did they start with printed circuits in these cars? I've always owned '67 on back, and they're really low tech, wires only.


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## crustysack (Oct 5, 2008)

although you already solved the problem- I didnt even see anything wrong- i was blinded by the symphony the motor was putting out


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Crusty, I thought the same thing when I watched the video, sounds sweet. How is your build holding up? Any gremlins popping up? E.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Hey Bear,

I saw over on Thumpin's thread you got the nose re-assembled. How's about some update pictures?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Pontiacpurebrred said:


> Hey Bear,
> 
> I saw over on Thumpin's thread you got the nose re-assembled. How's about some update pictures?


I keep thinking I should do that, I just haven't stopped to do it. Thanks for asking! :cheers Maybe I'll grab some tonight.

Bear


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> I keep thinking I should do that, I just haven't stopped to do it. Thanks for asking! :cheers Maybe I'll grab some tonight.
> 
> Bear


Please do. I am all aflutter with anticipation. :willy::lol:

BET IT LOOKS BAD @$$!!


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Aflutter? The mind boggles... 

Well, since you asked, here ya go :cheers

...and as a special added bonus, tonight I got the ram air system installed arty:


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

That looks AWESOME!!! I am so jealous (of course I know this has been a LOOOOONG time coming for you) but I am so impatient to get mine to this point. 

So couple or three questions...
Static headlights not hideaway? By design or just what was there and easier?
I assume your endura was not that glassy smooth, which of the 3 or 5 options did you use to restore it? (product wise)
Was your car ram air from the factory or did you hunt down all the pieces and make it ram air?

Again, just awesome work and so excited for you. :cheers
arty:

And so what if I was all a flutter? That's "ok" right? :lol:


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Technically it is OK to be 'aflutter', IF it is over the mans car. It IS NOT, however to be 'a flutter' over Bear. And it ISN"T really OK to use that term......:rofl::cheers....some other choices: "I got [email protected]@d when i saw it". "I can't wait to see the final pics". "". "I am freakin jealous, Dude"! ( jealousy is a sin)....etc.:lol:


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Thanks for the kind words. Yeah, I'm starting to get a little excited about it myself...




Pontiacpurebrred said:


> So couple or three questions...
> Static headlights not hideaway? By design or just what was there and easier?


That's what the car rolled off the Arlington line with in 1969. Hide-aways, I can take or leave. I'm not a huge fan, nor do I dislike them - they just didn't matter enough to me to go to the time and expense of converting to them.



> I assume your endura was not that glassy smooth, which of the 3 or 5 options did you use to restore it? (product wise)


The bumper that's on it now is a brand new factory one that I bought a looooong time ago, back when you could still get them. My original wasn't that bad and is probably restorable without a lot of effort, and I'll keep it as a spare "just in case". I haven't looked it over closely lately, but as I recall the only thing that's wrong with it is that it has some cracks in the paint and maybe one small gouge about 1.5 inches long on one of the "rails" between the headlights.



> Was your car ram air from the factory or did you hunt down all the pieces and make it ram air?


Nope, not a factory ram air car although waaaaay back when I was driving it all the time I did open up the original scoop inserts. I shopped around all the usual sources and found the best price on a partial "kit" from Warpath Restorations. I did already have an original Ram Air III lower pan, again that I got years ago and have been saving, but needed "everything else". Warpath was also the only vendor who was willing to sell me one of their kits and discount it by removing the parts I didn't need. Everyone else I talked to either wanted to sell a complete kit with no discount, or sell individual pieces (which totaled more than the kit). I sure wish "someone" would start reproducing the scoop inserts in metal instead of plastic.



> Again, just awesome work and so excited for you. :cheers
> arty:
> And so what if I was all a flutter? That's "ok" right? :lol:


Uh... sure it's ok  I'm kinda getting that way myself. After the way 'everything else' has fought me on this car, having the Ram Air system go in relatively trouble free was a really nice change :cheers

Still to go: buffing and installing all the trim, painting the inside of the trunk, bleeding the brakes, deciding on and acquiring/installing wheels and tires, fabricating a replica of the VOE exhaust control, replacing the seat covers and installing the interior (may farm out the headliner), charging the a/c system, installing all the weather stripping, installing all the glass, probably going over all the paint again and making sure it's buffed out 'good'. Oh yeah, musn't forget license plates and inspection sticker... Thinking I might spring for some vanity personalized plates.

Doesn't sound like too much if I say it really fast... :lol:

Also kinda waffling on something else: It's not an original Ram Air IV car although it's got Ram Air IV heads on it now and will appear to the casual observer as the real deal, at least until they start reading engine codes... I'm going back and forth about whether or not to put the Ram Air IV decals on the sides of the hood scoops. One the one hand, I like them - on the other hand, it wouldn't be strictly "honest" and also I'm not sure I'd want to advertise what's under the hood to either potential "adversaries" or thieves.

Bear


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

No offense fellas...I got cabin fever and couldn't resist the wise crack!!:cheers


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Eric Animal said:


> No offense fellas...I got cabin fever and couldn't resist the wise crack!!:cheers


Hey we don't mind, do we sweetums?


::ducking:: :rofl:

Bear


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

:lol::rofl::lol::rofl::lol::rofl:

Hey Guys, I will be 40 in November and I'm married to a hot 24 year old WOMAN.


I am as "confident" as a guy can be. Hence why I am not a feared to be a little silly once and a while.

Either way, Bear, your car is rolling thunder, bottled lightning, hell on wheels, ... aw heck one heck of a bad @$$ machine.


And to answer your question about the ram air. 
A.) technically, ALL that makes a ram air car a ram air car is heads, cam and exhaust. OH and the nifty goodies in/on the hood and air cleaner. So What's HONEST in that case? You have MOST of a true ram air right?

B.) Seriously WHY advertise? I will not have ONE PLACE on my ride that says 455 or ram air or anything. Mine will end up looking fairly pedestrian I think, till all you see is taillights
:seeya:


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

That's the direction I'm probably taking - for now - to leave it plain. Mostly because of not wanting to advertise to thieves, partly because I don't know if I could bring myself to put "stickers" onto that paint - knowing what it took to get it there.  

As far as equipment, it's got the heads, the air system, more cam than a "real" RA IV, and "a few" more cubes . All it's lacking are the legit stampings on the block, the 4-bolt mains, and the factory aluminum intake. The personalized tags I'm thinking about getting for it would read: IV6T1 

Bear (who's married to one hot blonde chick himself )


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Bear,

We all KNOW you have the EQUIPMENT....at least that's the word on the street.
:rofl:

Scott (Also in the married to hot blonds club)


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Mrs. Animal......the tall blonde, not the little furry critter!:cheers E


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## BatmanGTO (Jun 18, 2011)

Looking good Bear. How long before you think it will be on the road?

Eric, is that your pet (the critter, lol)?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Hey Batman, I've learned to quit predicting things like that. Every job I've done has taken longer and been more difficult than I anticipated, usually because of all the little unexpected hitches that happen along the way, like not being able to find the right fastener, having to repair something, etc.

I sure owe a debt to Mrs. Bear though for supporting me through all this. She's been wanting it -done- almost as much as I have. She's been really good to me from the start and I'm kinda nuts about her.

We're sneaking off this weekend for a getaway over the holiday. 

Bear


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

OK well I guess I need to get in on this since I brought it up. 

Mrs. Pontiac (the love of my life)


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

" The blonde wife GTO forum"....lovely ladies gents!:cheers...Batman, Yes, Rita is a pet. We raised her from a baby. She lived inside the house for a year. Then we released her...she comes every night to eat her favorite dinner, Peanuts, oatmeal cookies, and marshmallows!


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## BatmanGTO (Jun 18, 2011)

Eric, that is awesome!


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## DukeB-120th (Oct 19, 2009)

Is that why you are known as Eric Animal?? :rofl::rofl:


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Uhhhh...one of a few reasons, Yes....say hello to my little friends....:lol:


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Has this thread been Hijacked.....or mutated?


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## BatmanGTO (Jun 18, 2011)

Lol, yeah, sorry for hijacking your thread Bear. Maybe a mod can come clean things up 

Those ***** are too cool Eric


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Naaaa Bear's and ANIMAL too. I bet it's all good. Besides it's all for the love of a GTO.

S


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