# GM Layoffs



## TexasRealtor (Oct 4, 2004)

GM just announced plans to lay off 25,000 employees by 2008.


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## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

....wonderful....


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## Palmer (Sep 23, 2004)

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/07/AR2005060700478_pf.html 

:confused


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## AmesGTO (Aug 3, 2004)

They said the are reducing the number of employee's so that they end up with factories that run at 100% capacity. What do they currently run at 75% capacity?


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## TexasRealtor (Oct 4, 2004)

http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/07/news/fortune500/gm_closings/index.htm?cnn=yes


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

AmesGTO said:


> They said the are reducing the number of employee's so that they end up with factories that run at 100% capacity. What do they currently run at 75% capacity?


It's something like 85% capacity. GM's got a number of issues -- both white collar and blue collar:

On the white collar side -- it's an attitude that the unions are at fault for everything -- even though they were the ones who offered and signed contracts with generous medical coverages, paying workers to stay home when they're not needed, etc.. 

On the blue collar side -- they've got a lot of people that just have horrible attitudes. An attitude that GM is simply too big to die. Well, there are bunch of still unemployed Bethlehem Steel employees hanging out in Central/Eastern Pennsylvania -- with no hope of ever having another $20 an hour job again.

When Chrysler was ready to fold in the 70's, one of the UAW executives got on national television and said "the government MUST offer us job training programs." Excuse me? If the UAW was an inspired organization -- they'd be a true partner with GM and look for ways to do things faster and more efficiently. THEY should be training their workers to be more valuable. 

Sadly, their idea of a "dream job," even to this day, is to come to the plant drunk and sleep on a couch all day.


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## TexasAggie (Mar 2, 2005)

b_a_betterperson said:


> It's something like 85% capacity. GM's got a number of issues -- both white collar and blue collar:
> 
> On the white collar side -- it's an attitude that the unions are at fault for everything -- even though they were the ones who offered and signed contracts with generous medical coverages, paying workers to stay home when they're not needed, etc..
> 
> ...


 :agree


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

b_a_betterperson said:


> It's something like 85% capacity. GM's got a number of issues -- both white collar and blue collar:
> 
> On the white collar side -- it's an attitude that the unions are at fault for everything -- even though they were the ones who offered and signed contracts with generous medical coverages, paying workers to stay home when they're not needed, etc..
> 
> ...


+1 :agree 

Don't get me started on Unions-- but they are _far_ from the only major problem at the General.

That's a lot of people to lay off, and I'm sorry for the folks who worked hard only to get laid off... but let's hpe GM emerges from this leaner and meaner.


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## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

Groucho said:


> +1 :agree
> 
> Don't get me started on Unions-- but they are _far_ from the only major problem at the General.
> 
> That's a lot of people to lay off, and I'm sorry for the folks who worked hard only to get laid off... but let's hpe GM emerges from this leaner and meaner.


Yes, we all hope.... :cheers


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## westell (Oct 4, 2004)

one major thing about this that really pisses me off, it these are from USA held jobs.

what about spreading it around the globe a little ? :confused


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

westell said:


> one major thing about this that really pisses me off, it these are from USA held jobs.
> 
> what about spreading it around the globe a little ? :confused


Leave Austrailia alone...from what I'm to understand, those blokes make Great Cars! :cool


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

westell said:


> one major thing about this that really pisses me off, it these are from USA held jobs.
> 
> what about spreading it around the globe a little ? :confused


Unfortunately, the manufacturing of cars and trucks in the United States is far more expensive here than anywhere else. The environmental laws, the worker safety laws, the union contracts, the way medical costs are set up, etc. And I'll tell you what -- the average American consumer would buy cars screwed together in Iran or North Korea if they were cheap enough, even though those governments are working day and night on as many ways to be a pain in our collective butts as possible. It's the only thing GM can do to survive.

The US has entered into "fair trade" agreements with countries around the world. So we're technically on "even" ground with China. Trouble is, to build a factory here in the US, you're probably going to spend 5 years on environmental impact reports, etc. before you can break ground -- and that's even if they'll let you.

Meanwhile, in China, they'll just chop down trees, build a plant, pay their people peanuts, and dump all kinds of filth into the air and the water. And a Hyundai that costs $15K USD in Seoul sells for $15K USD here -- meanwhile, an $18K USD Cobalt sells for $50K USD there because of Korea's blatantly protectionist laws and distribution systems for imports. What's fair about that? Why isn't the WTO screaming bloody murder over that?

No wonder GM's dumping 1 out 6 jobs. Good, head of household, middle class jobs. Because plants are being closed -- that's going to cause a ripple effect as their suppliers begin to shut down. My guess? This is going to lead to at least 150,000 people being thrown out of work. 

And before we go off on a Democrat/Republican/Liberal/Conservative thing -- please be advised that both parties and both belief systems are equally guilty because they're both entered into equally damaging agreements. Bottom line? They're all the same.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

westell said:


> one major thing about this that really pisses me off, it these are from USA held jobs.
> 
> what about spreading it around the globe a little ? :confused


GM europe and australia are doing fine, why penalize them?

The problem is not Korea or Japan. Most Japanese cars are built in the US and Hyudai is following suit. Honda is the number one exporter of automobiles from the US. The problem is that GM beleived for such a long period of time that Toyota and Honda and such were not competition. They didn't negotiate properly with the union and they allowed poor quality cars to be made. They quit being innovative to save a buck. They stretched to save a pennies anywhere they could, and got a reputation for cheapness. They are reaping what they sow. 20 years from now Hyundai and Kia will have surpassed Honda and Toyota. Those two will be in decline and hopefully GM and Ford will still be around to make a comeback. For now lets hope that foreign car manufacturers keep adding plants here so these GM workers have a place to go. Also lets hope they don't take the flock of sheep union mentality with them to their new jobs.


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

Buy from domestic companies, you allow them to generate profit to reinvest in the United States and expand to other markets. Buy from foreign based companies, you allow them to hurt the United States by exporting profit and giving them the capital to grow elsewhere. Period.

As for unfair trade practices, don't have the time to get into it. Some people get it. Some don't.

Sure, it's easy to bash GM and tell all their suppliers and employees "tough crap" instead trying to help them out by purchasing the best product they offer. They're so stupid -- they get what they deserve.

Since you live in Florida, maybe we should tell you guys "tough crap" instead of helping your state out the next time a hurricane throws your alligators and toothless Earnhardt fans around like ping pong balls in a lottery machine. Maybe we should go so far as to block all the highways out of the state so you have to ride it out. 

After all, you chose to live in hurriance country -- so why should other people have to bail you out of your bad decision? Why should other people's property insurance rates go up to help pay for all the damage? 

After all, people get what they deserve, right?


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

b_a_betterperson said:


> Buy from domestic companies, you allow them to generate profit to reinvest in the United States and expand to other markets. Buy from foreign based companies, you allow them to hurt the United States by exporting profit and giving them the capital to grow elsewhere. Period.
> 
> As for unfair trade practices, don't have the time to get into it. Some people get it. Some don't.
> 
> ...



Wow, let's get personal here!!! 

First off, I buy American and I'm proud of it. I try not to buy anything from countries that are really our enemies, like China.

I understand that foreign companies take profits out of the US. It is much better when they have plants here and we purchase their goods. 

Trade practices are truly not fair right now. A bunch of tree huggers and sue everybody because nothing stupid I do is my fault types have hurt the US. Sure we need to protect the enviroment and hold manufacturers liable for defective products, but we have gone way past sensible. In addition, foriegn companies don't have to worry about our regulations so they enjoy a sizeable advantage. The enviromental movement, that is worried about global warming, needs to organize a boycott of any product that comes from countries that have factories that do not meet current US emission standards and enviromental regulations. This would do more to help the world than the slight improvement it would be possible for us to make. Problem is most of them really hate the US and capitalism and that is why they do what they do. 

I'm not sure why you dislike Florida so much. The state actually recovered from the record-setting 4 hurricanes in one season fairly quickly, and unlike you seem to think, without much outside help. We have no state income tax unlike California's max of 9% and we have a massive budget surplus (5 billion +) unlike California's deficit. The roads here are great. People are friendlier. While they may like Earnhardt, they aren't stupid enough to support Michael Jackson. 

I lived through a minor 5.8 earthquake, and I'll take a hurricane anytime. Let's wait till you have the big one. Sure people leave here when the storms come, but they come back. Maybe we should close the borders of Nevada, Oregon, Washington and Arizona to all the people that are trying to escape California's high taxes, high cost of living and over-reaching government. The only population growth you have now is illegal immigrants.

As for the insurance rates, it is double the cost here that it was in California for property insurance. That tells you Floridians pay for the cost of living here. We also don't expect nearby states to subsidise our electrical costs. As when any natural disaster has occurred neighbors help neighbors.

I have bought mostly GM cars for the last 10 years. I have tried to help them out, and did not say tough crap to the GM employees and suppliers. I believe what I said was lets hope foreign manufacturers continue adding plants here to help these guys. 

Lastly, most people do get what they deserve. There are some people that get caught up in the situation, and I feel sympathy towards them. In GM's case, the unions (read workers) and management both got greedy. When things were great they squeezed for more and cashed big bonuses, and when things turned bad they each said well GM will be here forever, and I'm not giving anything up. The workers could take some pay and benefit cuts, the management could do the same. The retirees could give a little back. They all need to work together, but all they do is stand around and blame their problems on someone else and look for outside help to bail them out. They all felt they deserved the gravy train they were on, and now the train wreck isn't very fun.


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## JMVorbeck (Jun 1, 2005)

Gosh guys, lets stick to car talk here. We all have something in common, and thats why we meet here. Lets not hash out political views, and fling stinging personal barbs. 

b a.....My car was supposed to have a dead pedal....how the hell did you get one?

fergey.......Go Gators?????????

LOL


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

JMVorbeck said:


> Gosh guys, lets stick to car talk here. We all have something in common, and thats why we meet here. Lets not hash out political views, and fling stinging personal barbs.
> 
> b a.....My car was supposed to have a dead pedal....how the hell did you get one?
> 
> ...


If you've got a 2005 -- that lump under the rug is supposed to be your dead pedal. 

What I did to mine was take an accelerator pedal, flip it upside down, and attach it to a 1/4" thick L bracket. Very easy to do in a 2004 -- just fabricate the pedal assembly, cut a slit in the rug, stick the L portion of the bracket against the firewall, then shoot a couple of self tapping screws through everything. Really turned out great. 

If you're serious, order your pedal through either Gene Culley at Fred Beans or Steve the GTODEALER -- they quote around $27 to $30 plus shipping -- whereas the typical MSRP is something like, if you can believe this, $61.

As for putting one in a 2005, I don't know what that lump is. The bummer is that you'd have to pull your rug up. There's an anchoring nut up and in front of the clutch pedal which is a breeze to take out -- but that kick panel on the left side of the footwell is a total PITA. And who knows how the lump is mounted? Good luck. It is the single biggest improvement you can make to a GTO.


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## JTYLER1604 (Jun 3, 2005)

What the heck is a dead pedal?


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## JTYLER1604 (Jun 3, 2005)

I found out. Nevermind - I asked Jeeves. LOL

What is a dead pedal?


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## JMVorbeck (Jun 1, 2005)

JTYLER1604 said:


> What the heck is a dead pedal?


A place to rest your tired, weary left foot when its not busily pumping the clutch. Most standard shift cars have them. The 04 didnt but [they] advertised the 05 as getting one along with the rest of the upgrades. I thought they scrapped the idea by production time, I wasnt aware that the stuipd bump was supposed to be it.


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

It's either a pedal and a flat portion of the floorboard to the left of the clutch used to hold yourself in position during aggressive cornering. Take a look at "My GTO Photos" and you'll be able to see one.


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

fergyflyer said:


> Wow, let's get personal here!!!


Please, don't take things personally. Just trying to make a point. That's one of the drawbacks of this medium. Things come across a lot more aggressively than if you were just gabbing with someone.


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## UAWGM (Apr 26, 2005)

As you might have guessed by my screenname I work for GM. I work at the lordstown ohio planet. We build GM's #1 selling car the cobalt. let me adress the 25,000 jobs, GM is not going to cut these jobs they are going to do it through retirement. yes a few jobs might be cut but it won't be 25,000 like the media is saying. as for the jerk who said we all just sleep and are drunk at work. sorry to tell you this but that is not the truth at all. we work ver yhard at making sure we build quality for you. KInda funny how Gm and it's employees give so much to those in need, we are always taking up collections to help somebody. But yet when we are in need you all just bash us and say we are lazy and over paid. there are places where management and the union need to be flexable but we cann't lose everything. IF people actaully bought american we wouldn't be in this situation would we. yes toyota honda all al them have planets here in the usa but where does that money go? You guessed it overseas. after reading some of your comments I am sad to say I own a GTO which I love but I wish I didn't have that in commen with such self centered jerks. just my thoughts. Thank you


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

UAWGM said:


> As you might have guessed by my screenname I work for GM. I work at the lordstown ohio planet. We build GM's #1 selling car the cobalt. let me adress the 25,000 jobs, GM is not going to cut these jobs they are going to do it through retirement. yes a few jobs might be cut but it won't be 25,000 like the media is saying. as for the jerk who said we all just sleep and are drunk at work. sorry to tell you this but that is not the truth at all. we work ver yhard at making sure we build quality for you. KInda funny how Gm and it's employees give so much to those in need, we are always taking up collections to help somebody. But yet when we are in need you all just bash us and say we are lazy and over paid. there are places where management and the union need to be flexable but we cann't lose everything. IF people actaully bought american we wouldn't be in this situation would we. yes toyota honda all al them have planets here in the usa but where does that money go? You guessed it overseas. after reading some of your comments I am sad to say I own a GTO which I love but I wish I didn't have that in commen with such self centered jerks. just my thoughts. Thank you


yOr posSt is Reely hard to reed, butt eye find it phunny that az much as yu bich about jobs going oversees yu stil bot a car that wuz _entyrely_ bilt oversees...

aNd eyll look feR those "planets here in the usa." Eye new this is a biG kontry butt wow...


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## TexasAggie (Mar 2, 2005)

b_a_betterperson said:


> Since you live in Florida, maybe we should tell you guys "tough crap" instead of helping your state out the next time a hurricane throws your alligators and toothless Earnhardt fans around like ping pong balls in a lottery machine. Maybe we should go so far as to block all the highways out of the state so you have to ride it out.
> 
> After all, you chose to live in hurriance country -- so why should other people have to bail you out of your bad decision? Why should other people's property insurance rates go up to help pay for all the damage?
> 
> After all, people get what they deserve, right?


 :cool


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## TexasAggie (Mar 2, 2005)

fergyflyer said:


> First off, I buy American and I'm proud of it. I try not to buy anything from countries that are really our enemies, like China.
> 
> .


Now Chrysler's jumping on the Communist bandwagon and will be importing cars from China later this year. But being a German company, what does one expect??

Two American car companies left...Ford and GM. I'll only support those two.


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

MoreMoonShine said:


> Now Chrysler's jumping on the Communist bandwagon and will be importing cars from China later this year. But being a German company, what does one expect??


Are you kidding?!?! I didn't hear that. One thing I did hear, though, was that GM, Ford and Chrysler all kissed the Chinese government's butt to do business there -- only to have their "partners" copy their plans and technology and go it alone. There's an exact duplicate of the Jeep Liberty running around over there -- and Daimler Chrysler's going nuts because the Chinese "justice" system isn't doing anything about it. Wonder if it has the optional dog leather seats...


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

Woof!!


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## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

Groucho said:


> yOr posSt is Reely hard to reed, butt eye find it phunny that az much as yu bich about jobs going oversees yu stil bot a car that wuz _entyrely_ bilt oversees...
> 
> aNd eyll look feR those "planets here in the usa." Eye new this is a biG kontry butt wow...


 :lol: ....yeah, I'll keep looking for those planets too..... :lol:


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## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

UAWGM said:


> As you might have guessed by my screenname I work for GM. I work at the lordstown ohio planet. We build GM's #1 selling car the cobalt. let me adress the 25,000 jobs, GM is not going to cut these jobs they are going to do it through retirement. yes a few jobs might be cut but it won't be 25,000 like the media is saying. as for the jerk who said we all just sleep and are drunk at work. sorry to tell you this but that is not the truth at all. we work ver yhard at making sure we build quality for you. KInda funny how Gm and it's employees give so much to those in need, we are always taking up collections to help somebody. But yet when we are in need you all just bash us and say we are lazy and over paid. there are places where management and the union need to be flexable but we cann't lose everything. IF people actaully bought american we wouldn't be in this situation would we. yes toyota honda all al them have planets here in the usa but where does that money go? You guessed it overseas. after reading some of your comments I am sad to say I own a GTO which I love but I wish I didn't have that in commen with such self centered jerks. just my thoughts. Thank you


Well, I usually don't get into these arguments but..... I know a few people who work at the Arlington, TX plant and I have to say, you guys get paid entirely over paid!!!! I have a friend that gets paid 16.00/hr for putting a grommet on a wiring harness that goes under the dash (keep in mind the dash isn't there when he's doing this), he sets in a chair and drinks Dr. Peppers while watching t.v. and waits for the next truck...it's friggin' rediculous. We may not be directing this at you, but you have to admit that some of them are rediculous! :cheers


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## JMVorbeck (Jun 1, 2005)

They have no one to blame except thier precious unions. The UAW will be the downfall of the big 3. Too many fat cats, too many overpaid workers. Who here gets 100% no deductable medical coverage for your whole family? Pensions? Gets paid when your not even at work because someone did your job and wasnt supposed to? I lived in D-town for a lot of years and have friends who work at the plants. Those lazy bastards wouldnt knock a sand flea off a cats ass if it wasn't specifically written in thier union contract. If my boss told me to do something (move a desk, put a chair together, whatever) and I told him that it didnt fall under my job description, my ass would be hoofin it around lookin for a new job. GTODealers friend who gets $16 an hour for rubber gromet application, if he was asked to simply sweep up around his area every auto plant in the country would close down. The Japs, Koreans, and Germans wont tolorate that crap. Back when American Businesses were running thier factories like sweat shops the unions were an indispensable requirement. Now, they are running American business to other countries like rats off a sinking ship. I say to all you overpaid union people with your cushy jobs......Lets have the American Auto manufacturers move all thier plants and infrastructure to right to work states like Florida and watch 10's of thousands of people happliy take those jobs at a fair wage and give the companies a fair chance at competeing with the foreigners. Not funny? My friends think its hilarious (ref. to thier pay and job)


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

Interesting take. Forgot about how I kept getting yelled at when working at a unionized grocery store as a kid because everybody else looked so lazy and lethargic by comparison. 

For example, the beer aisle looked like a bomb went off one night. Didn't want to hang out in the break room -- so I straightened it up just to keep busy and make the time pass more quickly. Some co-worker saw it and turned me into the union! And the way the union rep acted -- you think I tried to kill somebody. It's really sad, too, because some labor/management relationships are just so polluted at this point that there's really no hope.

BTW, apologies for the Florida reference before. That was not meant to make light of what everybody went through last year -- and, hopefully, will never happen to go through again. It was just a way of saying sometimes it's better to help other folks out even if they've made what we think are mistakes.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

I am definately not pro- union. They destroyed Pittsburgh and it's steel industry, BUT I think management shares some blame here too. Mostly I blame the union mentality of drag everyone down to the lowest level, but where was the leadership from the management. Someone needed to put their foot down and say enough is enough. Once you give someone something it is real hard to take it back. 

I was trying to read Groucho's post, where were the planets going to align in the U.S.A.? Are we talking about Saturn, GM or Pontiac? Is this another Florida joke? Wait he was from Ohio.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

fergyflyer said:


> I was trying to read Groucho's post, where were the planets going to align in the U.S.A.? Are we talking about Saturn, GM or Pontiac? Is this another Florida joke? Wait he was from Ohio.


kNow, dumbie, I was refar..._um_...refir..._er_..tawking abowt UAWGM's eckselent powst:



UAWGM said:


> yes toyota honda all al them have planets here in the usa but where does that money go? You guessed it overseas.


DidJoo no those krefty oRientils cood bIld planeTs? I didunt eethur! bUt I kindah see now...mArs is alrehdie RustiE! hAHa!


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

DidJoo no those krefty oRientils cood bIld planeTs? I didunt eethur! bUt I kindah see now...mArs is alrehdie RustiE! hAHa![/QUOTE]


Can the Deathstar be far behind????????? We are truly doomed.


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## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

fergyflyer said:


> Can the Deathstar be far behind????????? We are truly doomed.


do'nT laff! Their oWt to gett us! tHem ovursees oriuntils ar tHe worsT kiend! onLy the Uonion kin saiv Us! Imeen, the teechuRs uniOn tawt me to reed aNd rIte!


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## GTODEALER (Jan 7, 2005)

Groucho said:


> do'nT laff! Their oWt to gett us! tHem ovursees oriuntils ar tHe worsT kiend! onLy the Uonion kin saiv Us! Imeen, the teechuRs uniOn tawt me to reed aNd rIte!


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Holy crap, you have to stop.... that crap is hilarious!!!!!!


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## PWR_SHIFT (Feb 10, 2005)

Crap fellas, I wanted to post an opinion and halfway down this thread all hell broke loose, talkin' about the unions, orientals, planets, English grammar . . . lost my train of though . . .

Oh yeah, now I remember:
The good ole' Generous Motors has been slowly reducing its force by attrition for the last 3 years without any fanfare, so the 25K cut anouncement is basically just for Wall street, hoping that it makes an impression and the credit rating gets out of the junk-bond basement. My opinion is that they're still trying to do it with smoke and mirrors, just like in case of giving employee pricing to everyone, and simultaneously raising the GTO finance rate to 6.25%. It costs more to purchase this car today than it did 2 weeks ago. They think the consumers are stupid, and maybe some are, but most just get pissed. 

Don't sweat it, the $16/hr grommet-installer's union job is safe, and so is the engineer's whose sole great technical responsibility is designing/releasing a single support bracket and its accompanying screw (all at $80K/year) . . . at least until the whole ship becomes an underwater historical monument.

However, in this discussion we're failing to note a sizeable, if not the biggest, concern. Most of the rest of the world's governments subsidize their manufacturing and other key industries either through covering the workers' healthcare and retirement benefits, or just giving other huge breaks to the industry. But not us, we're the model laisez-faire capitalists. This all happens while they're imposing ingenuous restrictions on our products (American rice in Japan is a great case in point) to protect their jobs. They pay for this with general taxes, but their companies then sell in the U.S. and bring profits back home (no, those transplants do not spend most of their profits in the good ole' U.S. of A.) The playing field is not level, and don't let anyone kid you about that! We're being used hard like a single purpose rag, and when the time comes they'll put us away all wet (like when the Chinese market finally reaches its potential and becomes the biggest one). If the unions can't see that and are obstinate enough to keep to their 1930's line of thinking, then the wake-up call will be a harsh one.

Sucks I say, because I see it as nothing less than the gradual extinction of U.S. manufacturing and an irreprable loss to the country. Just look at what happened to mighty Gr. Britain, the cradle of industrial revolution; I think we're pretty close to repeating history.


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

PWR_SHIFT said:


> However, a sizeable, if not the biggest, problem is that most of the rest of the world's governments subsidize their manufacturing and other key industries either through covering the workers' healthcare and retirement benefits, or just giving other huge breaks to the industry. This all happens while they're imposing restrictions on our products (American rice goIng into Japan is a great case in point) to protect their jobs. They pay for this with general taxes, but their companies then sell in the U.S. and bring profits back home (no, those transplants do not spend most of their profits in the good ole' U.S. of A.) We're being used hard like a single purpose rag, and when the time comes they'll put us away all wet (like when the Chinese market finally reaches its potential and becomes the biggest one).
> 
> Sucks I say, because I see it as nothing less than the gradual extinction of U.S. manufacturing and an irreprable loss to the country. Just look at what happened to mighty Gr. Britain, the cradle of industrial revolution; I think we're pretty close to repeating history.


Yep. Just seems as long as people have porno on the dish, Schlitz in the fridge and Domino's at the door -- they could care less that the foundation of our middle class is rotting out from underneath them. Very well said.


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