# Cold start Lifter noise 65 389



## Anthd7767 (Aug 8, 2020)

So I have seen and read a lot about the various valve train issues people have had. Mine may or may not be unique, but seems to only occur when the oil is cold. When I acquired this car it had a cold start lifter noise on the passenger bank and seemed to be #'s 2 & 4. I decided to change the camshaft and lifters after multiple attempts at adjustment using the zero lash method. After install and initial break-in it sounded perfect. After the initial cool down cycle, I started it the next day and again I had the cold start tick (passenger bank) that is so annoying. It does go away about 4-5min after initial start and quiets down and sounds perfect. I'm running 20w50 valvoline with the zinc in it, I have checked to see if the oil galley plug is in the back of the block on the passenger side (it is) so I am quite curious if there are any Pontiac secrets I haven't heard of. I currently have removed the engine so I can detail the engine and engine bay. I will be removing the oil pan and heads to clean and inspect, the rebuild is not that old so I believe this to be just a reseal and paint project. If there is anyone out there with some further knowledge regarding this phenomenon please chime in... Thanks


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Anthd7767 said:


> So I have seen and read a lot about the various valve train issues people have had. Mine may or may not be unique, but seems to only occur when the oil is cold. When I acquired this car it had a cold start lifter noise on the passenger bank and seemed to be #'s 2 & 4. I decided to change the camshaft and lifters after multiple attempts at adjustment using the zero lash method. After install and initial break-in it sounded perfect. After the initial cool down cycle, I started it the next day and again I had the cold start tick (passenger bank) that is so annoying. It does go away about 4-5min after initial start and quiets down and sounds perfect. I'm running 20w50 valvoline with the zinc in it, I have checked to see if the oil galley plug is in the back of the block on the passenger side (it is) so I am quite curious if there are any Pontiac secrets I haven't heard of. I currently have removed the engine so I can detail the engine and engine bay. I will be removing the oil pan and heads to clean and inspect, the rebuild is not that old so I believe this to be just a reseal and paint project. If there is anyone out there with some further knowledge regarding this phenomenon please chime in... Thanks


Did you use the same weight oil before the cam lifter change? is it a high mileage motor? Why so heavy?


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## Jetzster (Jan 18, 2020)

Try 10-30w Valvoline V-1 Racing Oil when you put it back in🤨has lots o’zinc in it


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

I would go 10w30 or 40 also conventional not synthetic with zinc


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

Do you have the adjustable rockers or stock Pontiac?


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## Anthd7767 (Aug 8, 2020)

Anthd7767 said:


> So I have seen and read a lot about the various valve train issues people have had. Mine may or may not be unique, but seems to only occur when the oil is cold. When I acquired this car it had a cold start lifter noise on the passenger bank and seemed to be #'s 2 & 4. I decided to change the camshaft and lifters after multiple attempts at adjustment using the zero lash method. After install and initial break-in it sounded perfect. After the initial cool down cycle, I started it the next day and again I had the cold start tick (passenger bank) that is so annoying. It does go away about 4-5min after initial start and quiets down and sounds perfect. I'm running 20w50 valvoline with the zinc in it, I have checked to see if the oil galley plug is in the back of the block on the passenger side (it is) so I am quite curious if there are any Pontiac secrets I haven't heard of. I currently have removed the engine so I can detail the engine and engine bay. I will be removing the oil pan and heads to clean and inspect, the rebuild is not that old so I believe this to be just a reseal and paint project. If there is anyone out there with some further knowledge regarding this phenomenon please chime in... Thanks


So yes I used the same weight oil 20W50 Valvoline V-1 oil


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## Anthd7767 (Aug 8, 2020)

O52 said:


> Do you have the adjustable rockers or stock Pontiac?


Adjustable comp cams roller tip with poly locks


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## Jerry H. (Mar 19, 2020)

Did you prime the lifters when you installed them?


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## Anthd7767 (Aug 8, 2020)

Jetzster said:


> Try 10-30w Valvoline V-1 Racing Oil when you put it back in🤨has lots o’zinc in it


I thought a lighter oil might help, but it doesn't make sense to as to why it would all things being equal... The engine is very young in it's rebuilt life as far as total miles.....so oil weight shouldn't make a difference.....


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## Anthd7767 (Aug 8, 2020)

Jerry H. said:


> Did you prime the lifters when you installed them?


As per Comp Cams instructions and as on the many rebuilds I have done, no they say not to soak or prime the lifters....again the engine sounds perfect after it runs for a little while so the more I discuss this anomaly I equate more and more to oil viscosity... again that makes no sense to me...Could there be a mis-aligned cam bearing? I noticed that the pontiac cams have oil passages in them is there any correlation to those passages and the noise? Both cams did the same exact thing so I know it's not the cam itself.....Does anyone have good image of the oil routing diagram for a pontiac v8, the one on Butlers sight is a little blurry.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)




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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Anthd7767 said:


> As per Comp Cams instructions and as on the many rebuilds I have done, no they say not to soak or prime the lifters....again the engine sounds perfect after it runs for a little while so the more I discuss this anomaly I equate more and more to oil viscosity... again that makes no sense to me...Could there be a mis-aligned cam bearing? I noticed that the pontiac cams have oil passages in them is there any correlation to those passages and the noise? Both cams did the same exact thing so I know it's not the cam itself.....Does anyone have good image of the oil routing diagram for a pontiac v8, the one on Butlers sight is a little blurry.


Assume you can see oil coming from the pushrods/rockers when you "zero lashed" the lifters? You should have also seen the pushrods spinning as the lifters have to spin on the cam so as not to wear out the lifter or cam lobe. Too tight and the pushrod does not spin. You may have to give the engine a little more than idle speed to see the pushrod spin sometimes, but generally, it should rotate.

Correct pushrod ends? Take a look to make sure the ends are not being eaten up and look at the pockets in the roller rockers.

1.) Oil is probably too heavy. 20W50 if the engine bearing clearances are set wide OR, I might use the heavier weight if you live in an area where temps are normally high in summer like out west. The heavier oil also puts additional strain on the oil pump gears and oil pump shaft and can wear these parts or even break the shaft if still factory and not aftermarket hardened. 20W-50 may be too thick for the lifter orifices to either pump up, or pump down. Some lifter manufacturers recommend lighter oil due to this and tight clearances used on their lifters and 10W-30 may be needed. Otherwise, 10W-40 or 15W-40 should be OK.

2.) Synthetic oils do not have the "cushion" that non-synthetic oils have. They are also too "slippery." Fine if you run your car daily, not quite so good if the car sits a lot. The synthetics don't cling to the parts as well if let sit for long periods. Conventional oils are the way to go if you are not driving the car every day.

3.) What is your oil pressure? This needs to be confirmed. Do you have a 60PSI oil pump? There is a 40 PSI oil pump used on non-HP engines like those found in the big cars grandma drives. Oil pressure on the gauge should jump right up when fired up. If it creeps up, it may be an oil pump or oil passage flow problem.

4.) Filter choice.

5.) Look at the oil flow diagram. The front of the block has 2 oil galley plugs. If your have been replaced, it is possible that they could have been sunk too deep and is partially blocking that right bank oil supply to the lifters.

6.) Comp Cams, on cams like the XE versions, have steep lobe ramps and lifter/rocker arm noise is possible as the valves slam shut fast and hard. You want to have the correct matching springs that have enough pressure to close the valve and hold it closed versus bouncing off the seat due to the fast closing action of the cam. I would check this when the heads are off. When you re-assemble, I would put some cam assembly lube on the cam as a precaution even though you already broke in the cam.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

For right now, oil thickness is the only common denominator so you might start there. Then see what happens....goes away, gets louder or stays the same. Then look into PontiacJim recommendations. How did your other cam lobes and lifters look on the one you removed? Especially on those that seemed to be the issue? Just curious.


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## Anthd7767 (Aug 8, 2020)

Thanks for the responses..... Jim all the parts I removed were in pristine condition, pushrods perfect, oil pressure jumps right up idles at 45lbs (rally gauge new sender so not sure how accurate), pressure raises above 50lbs above idle. As far as whether or not the pushrods are getting oil or not and spinning.... I haven't pulled the covers while running that's a mess with out a set of covers that have had the tops cut out.... Springs are matched and shimmed for the correct installed height. As stated above the engine runs and sounds perfect after warmed up a little.... I do like the clue about the oil galley plug on the front being sunk in to far and causing a restriction... When I break the engine down I will check that out...I've never seen a thicker oil cause a lifter to "not" pump up and for it to be isolated to the passenger bank in both instances is odd to me, but if I don't find a smoking gun during my tear down I'll put in 10w40 when I reinstall with another AC oil filter.. Thanks again all, I will keep you posted!


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## Jetzster (Jan 18, 2020)

‘WIX GOLD’ filters at NAPA are great if the AC is not avail


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## Anthd7767 (Aug 8, 2020)

So after breaking the engine down to a short block and looking at the front of the block I measured .125 thou from the block face to the outer edge of the cup plug..... Thoughts anyone?


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## Anthd7767 (Aug 8, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Assume you can see oil coming from the pushrods/rockers when you "zero lashed" the lifters? You should have also seen the pushrods spinning as the lifters have to spin on the cam so as not to wear out the lifter or cam lobe. Too tight and the pushrod does not spin. You may have to give the engine a little more than idle speed to see the pushrod spin sometimes, but generally, it should rotate.
> 
> Correct pushrod ends? Take a look to make sure the ends are not being eaten up and look at the pockets in the roller rockers.
> 
> ...


Hey Jim, I added a picture to the thread... Looks like the cup plugs for lifter the oil galleys on the front of the block are in about .125 thou from the face of the block to the cup plug edge... What'd ya think?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I have a 461 stroker from Butler with roller valve train and their build sheet has 20W-50 listed so that's what I put in and then I noticed a ticking sound when cold even with 80psi of oil pressure and it concerned me so I looked up blogs on this site and found that oil was to heavy so I swapped it out to 10-30 or 40 and the ticking went away 👍


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Anthd7767 said:


> Hey Jim, I added a picture to the thread... Looks like the cup plugs for lifter the oil galleys on the front of the block are in about .125 thou from the face of the block to the cup plug edge... What'd ya think?


Looks a bit deep in my opinion. I would replace those knock in cups with threaded ones - an upgrade most make when rebuilding the engine. No chance of them coming out. I found a set on the internet that are shorter than the typical pipe plugs used by most. I think these are much better and you don't have to worry they are set in too deep. The oil galley holes get threaded with a tap and screw the plugs in. I would use some loctite on the threads. The pipe plugs are on the lower left of the page. Click on below.






High Performance Pontiac Engine Parts @ Precision Automotive Specialists


High Performance Pontiac Engine Parts for Traditional Pontiac V8 Applications. Our Unique Line of Performance Parts for the Traditional Pontiac V8 Engine.



www.precisionautomotivespecialists.com





* Shallow 3/8" Pipe Plugs *

** These Pipe Plugs are Utilized at the Front Oil Passages when the Block is Drilled and Tapped to Accept them.**

* Part # * * PP-554-T2 *
_$1.25 ( 2/Pkg.)_​


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## Anthd7767 (Aug 8, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Looks a bit deep in my opinion. I would replace those knock in cups with threaded ones - an upgrade most make when rebuilding the engine. No chance of them coming out. I found a set on the internet that are shorter than the typical pipe plugs used by most. I think these are much better and you don't have to worry they are set in too deep. The oil galley holes get threaded with a tap and screw the plugs in. I would use some loctite on the threads. The pipe plugs are on the lower left of the page. Click on below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Jim, I agree they do look a tad deep. I hadn't planed on taking the engine completely apart so I may skip the drilling and tapping of the oil galley's. I will pull the cup plugs replace and stake them with some lock tight and move on from there. I appreciate your time.


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## Anthd7767 (Aug 8, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> I have a 461 stroker from Butler with roller valve train and their build sheet has 20W-50 listed so that's what I put in and then I noticed a ticking sound when cold even with 80psi of oil pressure and it concerned me so I looked up blogs on this site and found that oil was to heavy so I swapped it out to 10-30 or 40 and the ticking went away 👍


Wow that's a weird one also....I wonder if when the engine is shutdown and the oil drains back it creates an air cavity in the oil passage. Then on restart the thicker oil can't displace the air quick enough and it gets pushed into the lifters and just has to work its way out. I bet if we were to drill a very small bleed hole in the passenger side rear galley plug the air would escape fast enough to prevent the lifters from filling with air. Maybe I'll try that......Thanks for the response.


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## SimonKelly (Jun 25, 2020)

I am having te same issue right now


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## Anthd7767 (Aug 8, 2020)

Hi all,

As a follow up I have removed the to core plugs at the front of the engine. Once removed I noticed that there is a raised area (register if you will) in the the core plug bore that would prevent the plugs from being installed to far. Also note that even if the plugs were install up to that raised area there would be NO restriction caused by the plugs slightly deeper install. If by chance they were hammered in passed that register then yes there would be an issue... So for all who have chimed in here Thank you. My conclusion thus far is oil viscosity..... I'm not sure "why" that would affect it other than the theory I posed regarding possible air entrapment in the lifter galley....As this project continues I will add updates along the way.

Best to all
Anthony


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