# Question about 1969 Judge Resto..



## nonvisi37 (Aug 15, 2015)

Hello everyone,
I have been a along time reader here and finally have a question that I have not been able to find the answer on. I'm hoping someone could shed some light on the 1969 Judge I just found. I bought it from an older gentleman in Ohio, it has been in the back of his barn forever and I would like to begin a mild restoration process on it. It is numbers matching from carb to oil pan but, the transmission has been changed out. According to the PHS docs it was born with a 3 speed manual but it now has a 4 speed in it. My question is, should i replace the trans with a 3 speed or stick with the 4. I dont plan on driving her long distances or anything. Also, I havent been able to find any info on other 3 speed Judges with bench seats. Can anyone on here guess a figure of how many of these were made? 
It is a stripped down model. It was built and sold in Feb 69 in Texas. It has a bench seat and vinyl top. No power steering or brakes! Bare bone muscle!
Anyhow, thanks in advance for the help.


----------



## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Welcome to th forum! 380 '69 GTO judges built with RAIII & Dearborn 3spd. That number is split between hardtops and converts, but it is very doubtful that more than a handful of 3 spd '69 Judge converts were built.

Back in the early 80's, the first '69 Judge I ever ck'ed out was a carousel red (72/72) black bench seat 3spd car with next to no options. Was an Arizona car, and had just been brought east to Norman OK. The seller was working the dents out of the front valance with a hammer and dolly when I went to look at it. I was interested, and I was a very affordable car, but was set on the styling of a '70, so I passed and kept looking. Personally, I wouldn't worry about the Dearborn 3spd being swapped out for a Muncie, hat was a very common swap. If you desire, you can always track down a Dearborn 3spd and the correct Hurst shifter.


----------



## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

+1 keep the 4 speed and if you want just put the 3 speed knob.........


----------



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

The HD Ford Dearborn 3-speed is a nice fully synchronized trans. My '68 Lemans came with one and I have had 2 other cars with them. I am with Alky on this one, keep the 4-speed. You might want to look around for a 3-speed just to have it and could be included IF you ever sell the car, but my guess is that if another person bought the car, they would keep the 4-speed as well.


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

How about some photos????

I'll answer your question with another question: what do you plan to do with the car? if you're going to keep it and enjoy it, then it doesn't matter - do what you like and have fun. If you're looking at investment/resale value, generally 100% original will always be better. However, in this particular case, like the good folks before me said, it's easy to do both. Run the 4speed if you like it better, but then when it's sale time changing it out for the 3speed is easy-peasy.

Bear


----------



## nonvisi37 (Aug 15, 2015)

Thanks for the input. I would like to keep it as original as I can and since it already has the 4 speed in it, I'll keep it in there. Here are some pics of me and the family pulling it out of last owners barn. It was sitting for over 10 years and I haven't started the engine yet. I plan on getting it rebuilt before I turn the key. It would kill me to blow the WS!


----------



## Jgoose514 (May 1, 2015)

Looks really good! How is the interior? As nice as the exterior?


----------



## nonvisi37 (Aug 15, 2015)

The interior is all there but really dirty from sitting. The bench seat will need new covers and the carpet could be replaced along with the interior door panels, but in all the interior is pretty good. Not show quality but surely driver quality!


----------



## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Weird how they optioned it for sure. My GTO is bench 4 speed but not a judge (see my thread- http://www.gtoforum.com/f12/gtos-bench-seats-28560/ ). I noticed on your car they opted for a cordova top and a remote mirror but didn't pony up for the 4 spd. Interesting in these days of "packaged" cars how individuals or dealers would order cars.

Without a doubt if optioned with bench 3spd this is one rare Judge.


----------



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Keep in mind that the 3-speed was a standard item while the 4-speed was a higher cost option. This may be one of the early run of 2,000 Judges in Carousel Red. From the book Pontiac GTO by Steve Statham, "The Judge earned its low cost merit badge by deleting trim rings on the wheels, *installation of bench seat instead of buckets*, and making some of the GTO standard instrumentation optional."

The apparent object was to offer the Judge as a package that was still affordable and this one fits that theme - 3 speed & bench seat.:thumbsup:


----------



## nonvisi37 (Aug 15, 2015)

It was built in Jan 69 and sold in Feb 69 out of Ft. Worth TX I think Pontiac Jim may be right about the initial run of 2000 cars. How would I find out which number it was of the first 2000? I have also read that some of these cars were used as demo cars around the local race tracks to build popularity. I think its interesting how someone is able to track a vehicles life while on the road! Thanks a ton!


----------



## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Is the Judge glovebox emblem missing? First 200 or so Judges were. The engineers didn't include them, when DeLorean learned of it he ordered them installed. They had to wait for the emblems meanwhile Judges were sold without them.

Above the heater controls does the insert plate say Pontiac, or is GTO in its place? Curious.


----------



## nonvisi37 (Aug 15, 2015)

Thanks for the help GTO JUDGE, My car's glove box door was missing when I bought it and there is nothing above the heater controls either? I will attach some pictures of the dash. Can you date it by the plate above the controls? Thanks!


----------



## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

As far as I know you cannot determine the date from the plate but I am not sure. My buddy had a '69 Judge that had GTO where the plate Pontiac was and he had a Judge emblem on the glovebox door. At a judged event a judge who was judging his car told him the GTO was incorrect and after setting the judge straight that judged learned something new.

Your dash is missing both. I have not seen a 1969 GTO missing the plate or GTO there. Perhaps a replacement way back?


----------



## nonvisi37 (Aug 15, 2015)

Are you referring to the A/C delete cover having the Pontiac or GTO stencil on it? That was on non air conditioned GTO's beginning in 1970.


----------



## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

nonvisi37 said:


> Are you referring to the A/C delete cover having the Pontiac or GTO stencil on it? That was on non air conditioned GTO's beginning in 1970.


Yes.


----------



## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

My 69 has the GTO plate on the dash above the climate controls. The only cars I've seen without any plate there was the Custom S.


----------



## nonvisi37 (Aug 15, 2015)

Interesting, I'll have to do some more research I suppose. After googling "1969 GTO Judge Dash" and browsing Hemmings, not one of them had an AC delete panel. I wish there were a book of this stuff :grinning:


----------



## younggto (Nov 22, 2013)

Didn't the initial run (2000 rings a bell) of Judges not have the rocker trim or trim rings on the wheels? I'm more of a 67 guy myself so I may be wrong. 


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


----------



## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

nonvisi37 said:


> Interesting, I'll have to do some more research I suppose. After googling "1969 GTO Judge Dash" and browsing Hemmings, not one of them had an AC delete panel. I wish there were a book of this stuff :grinning:


The GTOAA Concours guide has the info of whats what in it. That guide book is as close as to what is what there is. 

Your dash may have been replaced for some reason with an incorrect GTO dash explaining why there is no vent opening or delete plate.

Back then parts were replaced under warranty with incorrect parts if the parts were not available. For example, talking with an original owner of a 70 Judge this past summer I noticed he had a '72 dash and inquired, he told me his dash cracked while his car was still under warranty. His dash was replaced with '72 dash by the dealer, the '70 dash was not available as it was on back order or something he told me.


----------



## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

younggto said:


> Didn't the initial run (2000 rings a bell) of Judges not have the rocker trim or trim rings on the wheels? I'm more of a 67 guy myself so I may be wrong.
> 
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


The beauty rings were a factory option delete. They were however offered as a dealer installed option.


----------



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

OK, here is an article with a dash photo on the '69 Judge. No emblem or script on this dash above the heater controls. 1969 Pontiac GTO Judge - Condition Freak

The Judge option was to be in competition to the low cost performance Road Runner option. From a 1969 advertisement, listed as standard items for the Judge package (some being standard GTO items) was 400 CI 366HP Ram Air V8, HD 3-speed manual transmission, functional driver controlled air intake scoops on hood, Q-jet carb, endura front bumper, concealed wiper arms, bucket seats or bench seat with folding center arm rest, Hurst T-handle on stick shift cars, stainless steel pedal trim, upper level ventilation, carpeted lower door panels, dark walnut appearance instrument panel trim, chromed rocker arm covers,filler cap & air cleaner, free flowing dual exhausts, full-width rear deck spoiler, HD springs & shocks, heavy-rated stabilizer bar, variable pitch 5-blade fan, dechromed safety rims rally II wheels, G70 -14 wide tread fiberglass belted tires -blackwall, identification - Ram Air decals on side of hood scoops, the "Judge" on front fenders, three color vinyl stripe on upper edge of front fender, door, & quarter. (Note-no mention of the "Judge" on the glove box in this ad.)

Standard gearing was listed as 3.55 with 3/4-speed or 3.23 with AC.


----------

