# Rocker arm/hydraulic lifter problem... need help!



## 69goat (May 25, 2008)

First of all, I'd like to say hello to all the members... I'll post in the new member section if you want to say hi.

Anyways, I have had some problems lately with rocker clatter on my 1969 gto. I spoke to a gm parts dealer (who ironically recently rebuild a 66 goat) and found out that technically, it is nonadjustable and should only require torquing everything down to 20-25 ft-lbs. Well after doing just that, there was severe play still. I ended up having to add a washer and torquing to 50-55 ft-lbs to eliminate this problem... or so I thought. A few days later the chatter came back and is only increasing (I checked the setup and it didn't slip). My two thoughts are that either the lifter isn't getting enough oil and is likely getting stuck or that it is the cam. I have since done a check and am pretty positive that the cam is fine. I guess my main question is, does anyone have any suggestions on getting to the lifters and more importantly, a schematic on the engine? I'm a little on a time crunch and don't really want to wait for shipping of a manual (I already have the parts to replace the lifter). Thanks all, and hello!


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Hi, Welcome to the forums.
I believe those should be adjustable hydraulic lifters. To adjust that style you would turn the motor over till both valves were closed (@TDC of that cyl) then loosen the rocker nut to start, then while rolling the push rod between your fingers with one hand, tighten the rocker nut with the other hand just until you feel the slack taken out of the push rod (gets hard to turn), then tighten an additional 1/2 turn. Do all 8 cyls and you should be set. If you had solid lifters, then you would adjust the same way, sept when the push rod just gets tight, you would back the rocker nut off and use a feeler gauge between the rocker tip and the valve stem and adjust to the cam`s specs.
Post some pics when you get a chance!


----------



## 69goat (May 25, 2008)

I wonder if he put in the wrong engine then. The rockers are held down by a bolt/nut combo that both have shoulders to them. I have gone through all 16 valves and adjusted them, however there is a limit due to the shoulder (hence the non-adjustable part). Even when I add a washer there to give space, which I shouldn't have to do, the one valve quickly deteriorates again within 5 minutes so it either has to be the cam falling apart or the lifter. When I tested it I took off the valve cover off, disconnected the distributor and had a friend turn the car over. When this happened I had equal movement between the bad valve and all others around it, which I have been told by an engine mechanic is the test to find out if it is the cam or not (if its the cam there shouldn't be equal movement). This means that it must be the hydraulic lifter, however I am not entirely sure how to get to it. I'm really hoping for some guidance towards a manual or schematic to rebuilding a 400ci pontiac engine so that I can at least feel like I have a safety net when I start pulling components.

As for pictures I will take/post some when the weather clears up. 280+ days of sunshine here and NOW it gets cloudy.


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Maybe it`s an Olds motor in there. Is there a stand up metal oil fill tube in the front of the motor?


----------



## 69goat (May 25, 2008)

I'm actually positive it's the right motor after speaking with the local pontiac parts rep. It's the 69 400 ci engine... they still have stock nuts for the nonadjustable pieces. Maybe your thinking of the '70 engine?


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

I was under the impression that most all Pontiac GTO engines were adjustable.
Pontiac Rocker Arm Adjustment


----------



## 69goat (May 25, 2008)

If you read close it actually is recommending that you switch to an adjustable setup, then goes on to explain how to adjust them. I am not sure which ones are adjustable, but I do know that mine isn't =). A lot of people have been known to use chevy adjustable studs with lock nuts.


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

I don`t read that....I see..*"Whether you have decided to stay with the stock type stamped rocker arms or Competition Cams Magnum Rollers Rockers as pictured here, or something far more exotic, you will need to adjust valve lash."*

I read that as even stock rocker arms need to be adjusted.


----------



## canamjohn (Apr 9, 2005)

*Valve train*

I have had good luck using stock Chevy Big Block Studs and nuts. This will make the Pontiac valve train adjustable. adjust them a 1/4 to 1/2 turn after the slack is removed from the push rod while on the base of the cam.


----------



## 69goat (May 25, 2008)

The problem isn't the adjustability part... I have added spacers to it only to quickly have the rocker gain play again. This means that something in the geometry is giving way. The more I push down on the rocker, the more play goes in. This isn't something that can be fixed with just adjusting a nut. All I would like is some guidance towards an engine schematic or repair manual if anyone has any suggestions...


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

This is very confusing. All the GTO valves should be adjustable. If, for whatever reason, the heads were changed and now it has non-adjustable valves, the only way the valves would keep getting loose would be if the press in rocker arm stud was pulling out of the head or the lifters are completly shot. But, I don`t know how you would have that style in your motor. Can you give the casting #s of the heads?


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

I just had a conversation with the machine shop that does all my work and he verified that Pontiac did use some style heads like what you described. He also told me a way around your problem!
He advised to buy a set of poly lock rocker nuts like those from Mr. Gasket. They are the style with the allen locking screw in the center. They will not only pull down further on the rocker arm stud to remove the slack and stop the ticking, but also make your valves adjustable so you can set it up like described above. :cheers


----------



## 69goat (May 25, 2008)

Nice! I think I'll definitely convert them to nonadjustable, however that isn't quite the problem from what I can tell. Even being able to adjust them (I had an adjustable setup on that one while I waited for the correct nut to come in) it continued to deteriorate. I'd tighten again, it would deteriorate again. I'm 99% sure it is the hydraulic lifter. Any tips on pulling those?


----------



## wytnyt (May 17, 2008)

if your able to pull this lifter out,,check to see if it is beveled due to wear ,,if so you may have got a tiny pin hole in the lifter causing it to lose its prime.
one other area to explore is since lifters are last to get oil,,its possible that you have low oil pressure thus causing the lifters to get insufficient oil to them.
even a clogged pushrod can cause this effect.
the complete valve system should be checked to determine its condition
hope this helps
also,,i also went with the poly locks as a way for adjustment but you also can just find slim locking bolts that will also work


----------



## wytnyt (May 17, 2008)

i guess i should have read your entire post
best way ive found to remove lifters is of course with the proper tool that bites both sides of the lifter,,,however you can get the lifter out just enough to use a sharp pair of vice grips to do the job
the trick is to gradually pull it out while your moving it around to loosen up the crud that in between.
if you pull out too much at once,,it will tighten up on you and make it harder to get loose


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

They make a special tool for pulling them, it has a jaw that opens into the top of the lifter and then uses like a slide hammer to pull them out. I just use a needle nose pliers and cut a small groove on the inside of the tip so I can hook the top lip of the lifter then just keep wiggling it up and down until it comes out. You`ll more then likely have to pull the intake and the lifter valley tray out to get the lifters out.
That was a great suggestion of looking for a worn lifter on the bottom side by wytnyt, I`ve seen them sooo bad you could use them for a cereal bowl. If the bottom of the lifter is worn that bad, you should probably replace the cam as well.


----------



## Indy1K (May 16, 2008)

Hey Guys, 
I was reading this thread cause I was gonna ask about setting valve lash on a new valve train before you fire it up. I am building up a 68 pontiac 400. New Edelbrock performer cam, lifters and push rods. original rockers, screw in shoulder studs, half ball insert and shoulder nuts. in some places it says to torque to 20-25 ft-Lbs and in other places it says to follow the locking nut procedure.
Question is, with the shoulder nuts, do I just torque them? That will drive the pushrod down into the new dry lifter. The document from Edelbrock said not to pump up the lifters first.
Yes, these are the original 400 stock heads. They are dated D178 and there is a 1 and 6 on the top of the center 2 exhaust ports and a 6 on the #2 exhaust port.
Should I just order a set of adjustable locknuts?
Thanks,
Kevin


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Adjust them manually @ TDC by tightening the rocker nut until you can no longer twist/turn the push rod, then tighten an addition 1/2 turn.


----------



## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Sounds like a bad lifter or maybe but rarely a clogged oil galley to the lifter.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I had this problem once,and it was an oil galley plug that had come out . There are two galley plugs that are "press in" behind the timing chain,and one had blown out. I lost all oil to the lifters on that side of the engine. Check to see if there is oil getting up there to the top end by runnning the engine with the valve cover od=ff and a fire extinguisher handy. Your washer and 55 foot pounds tells me something is very wrong. Jim Hand has a great article about setting up the valves. The Pontiac lock nuts go down to 25 pounds for zero lash, and then a half turn more. If you loosen them and re=tighten, they will need to be replaced with NEW nuts. They are a one-time-only nut! They WILL back off if re-used. Poly locks work well, I have them on my '65, and they've been trouble free for 28 years. You can do a "running" valve adjustment too, tighten the nut just enough to stop the clatter, and the pushrod should still be spinning. It should be the Rocker arm, the special dome shaped retainer, and a nut, nothing else. NO other washers. Good luck. Check that the lifters are getting oil!!!! If a galley plug came out, they will all collapse.
Jeff


----------

