# To rebuild or buy crate?



## MOTONATE (Sep 12, 2008)

Hey all,

First off, excuse me for my stupidity or lack of knowledge.....
I have a 68 with a 400/400 with matching number.. Motor was rebuilt when I first bought it 7 years ago, but it was built to be a strong reliable motor with not much HP/Torque change. Its got a cam, carb, intake, pistons and headers. 

My question is, I want to get to about 450 hp. How should I go about doing this? Should I get a new set of heads and start from there? Or should I just buy a crate motor? I am on a budget for the most part. I dont have 15k to drop into this car. Ive had some people tell me to pull the motor and trans and keep them just in case I HAVE to sell the car and just buy a crate motor and trans and throw it in there. 

What do you all think I should do? Sorry about the long post but I want to be as detailed as possible from the get go. 

Thanks for all input!


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

First off NICE 68 GOAT!
Second, I am a fan of the rebuild. you can do a nice rebuild and get 450-550 hp a lot cheaper than buying a crate motor. Here are some nice resources...and I completely stole this from another post from someone much smarter than I.

"Perhaps buying Jim Hand's book "How to Build Max-performance Pontiac V8s", published by SA Designs, may be prudent? This is the most "current" study of the ol' ***** for street engines. Some of it a bit dated now (7 years), but it's still VERY "applicable".

"You may also want to check out the new book by Rocky Rotella, "How To Rebuild Pontiac V-8s" from the same publisher. It just came out and with the book Mr. P-Body mentioned you will have a good base of knowledge to work off of. I agree with everyone else, Mr. P-Body has the knowledge and I only wish I lived closer to his shop."

And do some searches. There is a strong contingent for building a 461 stroker out of the 400's with very nice results.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

:agreeReal nice 68!...Pull ther motor and have a REPUTABLE shop rebuild it!


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Eric Animal said:


> :agreeReal nice 68!...Pull ther motor and have a REPUTABLE shop rebuild it!


Did I do good Uncle E? Did I really?


It's amazing how much a guy can re-learn in a few weeks around here...with help from great folks like you.
arty:


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## freethinker (Nov 14, 2009)

MOTONATE said:


> Hey all,
> 
> First off, excuse me for my stupidity or lack of knowledge.....
> I have a 68 with a 400/400 with matching number.. Motor was rebuilt when I first bought it 7 years ago, but it was built to be a strong reliable motor with not much HP/Torque change. Its got a cam, carb, intake, pistons and headers.
> ...


i doubt you wore it out in 7 years. if the bottom end is running fine i wouldnt pull it. better roller cam , new eheads, factory cast headers and call it good.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

:agree


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## Claymation19 (Jun 27, 2010)

I just went through the engine rebuild process. After listening to quite a bit of advice on the forum, I kept the pontiac engine and did not go with the crate. I don't know if Mr.P-Body is still around (haven't seen him post in a while), but he was very helpful with turning what I wanted in terms of performance/end result into an actual plan for the rebuild. In retrospect, I wish I would have sent my 400 off to him for the rebuild.

If you really want a lot of power, the stroking to a 461 is a good option and something I had discussed doing, but wanted to keep mine a little more "street-able."

I also purchased the Max Performance Pontiac by Jim Hand that was recommended in an earlier post. It has been very helpful and I've learned quite a bit from it.

Just my opinion, but I'd keep that pontiac power plant in there :cool


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## MOTONATE (Sep 12, 2008)

Thanks for the input guys! Im out in CA and I know Bruce Fullper is down in LA. He is a pretty reputable Pontiac guy, right? I've thought about stoking it to a 461 but wasnt sure how "streetable" it is? Not sure on how you can figure out if its "streetable" enough or not but I think that would be the best way to get to around 450HP.
Any other recommendations?

Thanks guys!


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## JustAl (Mar 20, 2010)

While I have not dealt with RRE directly there has been some controversy surrounding Fulper. Check out the thread from 01-12-2011 titled Bruce Fulper & RRE, a Google search may also be interesting.


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## Uly49 (Jan 27, 2011)

Hey All,
FYI......Mr P-Body is definitely still around. I have been in touch with him a few times recently about the final stages of my build. I don't want to speak out of turn so I will leave it at this: He is dealing with some personal issues and will be back with all of his very helpful knowledge in the very near future. 
Scott...


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Motonate, the advice given has been 100% IMO. Mr. P-Body gets my vote. Get online and check out prospects, etc. I agree with TempestGT, 7 years on the motor is not a lot. A decent cam and heads could go far for not a lot of $$$. Stroker motors are VERY streetable, as they make mucho power at low revs, resulting in a long-lived, understressed torque-monster.


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## MOTONATE (Sep 12, 2008)

geeteeohguy said:


> Motonate, the advice given has been 100% IMO. Mr. P-Body gets my vote. Get online and check out prospects, etc. I agree with TempestGT, 7 years on the motor is not a lot. A decent cam and heads could go far for not a lot of $$$. Stroker motors are VERY streetable, as they make mucho power at low revs, resulting in a long-lived, understressed torque-monster.


Thanks for the advice. I'll look into Mr. P-Body. Ive done searches and have found some good info. Top choice is going to stroke it out and find the right builder for it. Fulper seems to be interesting. Ive emailed him few times and he has got back to me quickly. After searching about him and seeing some negative comments come back, it makes some of the things he said to me very funny and I am shying away from him now. :lol:


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

First off, nice looking car! Love the stance.

Add me to the long list of rabid supporters for "Mr. PBody" Jim Lehart - Central Virginia Machine. He helped me plan the build for my numbers-matching 69 400 (now a stroker 461) and I'm -very- happy with the results (490+ HP, 540 lb/ft torque on the dyno on a day where the air was over 90% humidity). You won't find a nicer or a more straight up guy. He was very open with me on recommendations and information before I ever spent a penny with him.

Take everything you read on the internet, both pro and con, about anyone or anything with a huge grain of salt and always remember that every opinion is from someone's own experience or from what they've heard someone else say - so it's always going to be slanted and only represent part of the story. When you're considering parting with your hard-earned cash for a product or service, always research as many sources as you can and remember all of them will have some sort of "history" that colors their story that's not usually readily apparent.

Bear


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

It would be prudent to build another block and keep that one safe somewhere since it runs good and you plan to beat on it, but stay with a Pontiac. If yours doesnt have forged rods then you run the risk of breaking one and ventilating the block. I wont build another one with stock rods. Even though I have had stock rods last 7 years in a 455 racing and beating it on the street, eventually one will let go.

It isnt that difficult to find a 400 block, and a stroker kit doesnt have the negative effects like a chevy of loading the side of the bores, or oil ring land problems of the 347 Ford. The 455 has .030 larger bore than a 400 at 4.15", the displacement comes from the crank which is 4.21" instead of the 350/389/400 3.75". Its just like building a 455 with a 400 block, and really you could do it with stock parts and a crank turned down to fit the 3" mains. No need to do that though since you can get better parts for about the same money as getting the machine work and welding done.

More stroke means more torque. If you want 450hp that is relatively easy to do with a 4.21 or 4.25 stroke crank, but the big difference between a crate chevy and a Pontiac is the torque it will produce. You are going to have over 500ftlbs for a large portion of the rev range with a 455, where a chevy will be lucky to produce 475ftlbs. A mild 455 can put you in the 12s easily if you can get your nose heavy GTO to hook, and it wont cost you as much as a crate engine if you put the money where it is needed.

This is my latest engine to run E85, its a basic 455 with 72cc heads to take advantage of the compression and octane of the fuel. It has a $1600 crank kit with 6.625" rods (stock length), a hydraulic roller cam because I plan to swap cams often and didnt want to worry about flat lobes and that ran $1000. I have another set of heads getting ported and milled to raise compression higher and they should run about $1500, maybe a bit less. The heads on it were built years ago for $1200. Machine work was about $450, FelPro gaskets were less than $100 from Summit. Add an oil pump and timing chain and its complete. I sourced all the parts from Butler Performance and they do the head porting for me. I like the torque their heads make.

This engine could easily make 550hp/tq and its cheaper than a ZZ4 crate engine that puts out only 330hp. The best part is I dont have to change the transmission bellhousing, starter, wiring harness, motor mounts, exhaust, rear gears, and everything else needed to put a chevy in a Pontiac. You can built the same engine with either a 400 or 455 block very easily. A chevy with the same attributes and power will cost considerably more to build.


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## MOTONATE (Sep 12, 2008)

Thanks for all the compliments and the responses fellas. I appreciate all the info I can get. I really am on a pretty tight budget, since Im gonna have to put a 12bolt with disc brakes in the rear as well as labor and stuff. Gonna need to piece this together but want to get the ducks lined up in a row before I jump on in.
I come from the diesel truck backround and understand more about suspension and handleing than I do about indepth motor builds 
Keep the opinions coming! I will get in touch with Mr P-body and see what great advice he can give me. Thanks!

My daily driver!


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