# 1964 GTO Convertible Frame Replacement



## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

I bought a 64 GTO convertible in April 2010 out of Missouri. If you're interested you can read about it here:

http://www.gtoforum.com/f12/nice-surprise-26255/

I've been driving if for the last couple of summers. One issue I did notice was the frame had a few soft spots on it. I've been looking for a replacement frame and about a month ago I found this advertised locally and made a deal.










The reason for the purchase was this was sitting under it.










The frame has been blasted and coated, all new front suspension, new brakes, brake lines, fuel line.......... and best of all, a 3:23 Posi rear end.










I figured I'd start a thread detailing the frame swap. 










To make things a little more interesting, I'm converting the car from automatic to 4 speed in the process as well as likely going to front disc brakes and a dual reservoir master cylinder. I dropped off the M-21 I have for it at the tranny shop today for them to go over it. If anyone has a floor shift column they want to get rid of, let me know. 

I'm parting out the Skylark so if anyone needs any convertible parts among virtually anything else you can think of...... PM me.

I'll try to keep this updated as work progresses. Wish me luck :cheers

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Can someone tell me which crossmember mount holes are used to locate the crossmember for the 4 speed? 

Thanks in advance.

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

I've got the M-21 back and picked up a box of 4 speed conversion parts for an "A" body. I've got a little restoration to do on them, but they look OK all in all. Can someone tell me the exact placement of the z-bar bracket onto the frame? Also can I resuse the pedal bracket in the car and just remove the brake pedal arm and replace with the clutch and brake pedals, or do I need to change the mounting bracket also?



















I've pretty well run the tank dry in the car, I guess it's time to start tearing this thing apart this week-end. I haven't picked up the flywheel, clutch or pressure plate yet. Would someone also be able to tell me what I should be using here for the 66 421 in the car?

Thanks in advance.

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Well that sucks. Started diassembly this morning. Pulled off the rocker trim, and then started removing body mount bolts. The first bolt snapped off before it would budge.

Can I get at the caged nuts to spray them with penetrating oil before I start removing them? I know I can get to the 4 at the firewall, how about the rest?

Thanks in advance.

Allan


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## Josh.AZ.GTO (Jul 11, 2009)

I had a cage nut spin on me from breaking free. I had to cut a small square hole about 1"x1" with a cutoff wheel. Little bit of welding, grind smooth, cover with carpet and never see it. 

I am not sure there is any other way to get the cage nut if its broken off.


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

So, I've got 3 body bolts to deal with to free the body, but the front clip is ready to come off...... Except for the remote mirror cable. Can someone advise as to whether the remote toggle assembly is supposed to fit through the firewall opening (it doesn't). I need to deal with this so I can remove the clip...... then there might be some photos worth posting.
Here's one as a teaser.










Thanks in advance.

Allan


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## the65gto (Oct 9, 2008)

Al T said:


> Well that sucks. Started diassembly this morning. Pulled off the rocker trim, and then started removing body mount bolts. The first bolt snapped off before it woudl budge.
> 
> Can I get at the caged nuts to spray them with penetrating oil before I start removing them? I know I can get to the 4 at the firewall, how about the rest?
> 
> ...


I am familiar with those bolts. My bolts reduced their diameter by half between the head of the bolt and the thread by corrosion. That is where mine twisted off. Real PITA! Ordered new ones from Ames for about $3.00 each. Enjoying your progression! 421 huh! I remember those 65 2+2's at the drag strip with a slush-a-matic transmission would just clean my clock, often winning their class week after week.


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

*Success*

A little bend to the opening in the firewall and success. I need to cut a couple of body bolts on the week-end and the body should be off..... knock on wood..




























One thing I haven't mentioned is the car will be going back it's original color of Starlight Black. I have a little work to do to undo a previous color change to white. Will be much easier with the body off the frame.

This also showed up yesterday...... it will help with the conversion.


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

the65gto said:


> 421 huh! I remember those 65 2+2's at the drag strip with a slush-a-matic transmission would just clean my clock, often winning their class week after week.


I'm hoping with the rebuilt 4 speed, my '64 will be a little quicker than the 65/66 2+2's . Even with the crappy two speed auto and the non-posi rear, it had a ton of torque to put down.


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## the65gto (Oct 9, 2008)

Al T said:


> I'm hoping with the rebuilt 4 speed, my '64 will be a little quicker than the 65/66 2+2's . Even with the crappy two speed auto and the non-posi rear, it had a ton of torque to put down.


Here is an article I had saved at the time. 0-60 3.9 Seconds, "An accelerative land vessel par excellence" :lol:


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Thanks!


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Life kind of got in the way over the last couple of months but I did get some work done over the last week. The bolts are out and everything disconnected with the exception of the emergency brake cable. What is the best way to get the cable unclipped out of the firewall. Once that's done, the body will be off......pictures to follow.

"Edit" - I ended up taking a small hose clamp and sliding it over the prongs on the emergency brake cable, tightened it down and was able to remove the cable......... if anyone was wondering 

Can someone tell me the correct location for the z-bar frame bracket?

Thanks in advance.


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

I said in the first post "a few soft spots".......... Holy crap!! The body was almost holding the frame together!! Not only that, bondo patching rust holes in the frame. Unbelievable! Extremely glad I'm doing this.

Kicked the frame with a steel toed boot on.... lightly.










A few more taps with a body hammer....










With the body off the rot is obvious......and much worse than I thought.










With New Years Eve plans, here's where I leave it today. 










Hope to pull the engine/transmission tomorrow and get the new frame into the shop, and this piece of crap gone. I drove my kids in this car! The video of the frame flexing at the "steel toed boot" spot by simply pressing down on the rear crossmember is unbelievable.

http://i558.photobucket.com/albums/...F-9F27-E5508AFF83FC-1251-000001A3F37AEFCE.mp4

Happy New Year to all. :cheers


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Well, I got accomplished today what I wanted to. Engine and tranny out and split. Engine on the stand, paper mâché frame out of the shop, the restored frame in. While the 421 is out I'll be cleaning, repainting, and resealing. Considering how bad the frame was, I'm looking forward to seeing the difference in the drive when it's all back together.





































I now need to order gaskets, flywheel, pressure plate, clutch, etc, etc, etc......


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## curtdan62 (Oct 27, 2010)

wow.. those pictures of the frame are pretty scary looking. What did you use to pull your body off the frame?


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## Squidtone (Nov 26, 2010)

Al T,
Wow, that is a great job you're doing. I LOVE the 64's.
can't believe how flexy that old frame was. Amazing. Didn't your door edges jam into the quarters when you hit a bump or accelerate?

I have a convertible that I've converted to 4 speed. The Z bar tab goes on between two frame holes. I'll try to attach a pic.....I have several pix I found on the 'net to help me place mine when I welded it.

Edit: I added another of my frame...with the new tab....it's a 67 but is the same from 64 to 67....

Good luck.
Dave


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

curtdan62 said:


> wow.. those pictures of the frame are pretty scary looking. What did you use to pull your body off the frame?


An overhead beam...... It has been well used on numerous occasions. Highly recommended for anyone building a shop.


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Squidtone said:


> Al T,
> Wow, that is a great job you're doing. I LOVE the 64's.
> can't believe how flexy that old frame was. Amazing. Didn't your door edges jam into the quarters when you hit a bump or accelerate?
> 
> ...


The body was pretty flexy. Definitely understand why! Check out the bondoed over crack on the inside of the frame opposite the "steel toed boot" spot. Crazy!!










The old frame will be chopped up this week-end and sent to the metal recycler. I had originally planned on selling the frame, but now..... not a chance!!

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

The frame is still here. It just gets better......... I went to remove the rear end this afternoon. Hmmm..... there's no access hole to get at the lower control arm mounting bolt on the driver's side frame rail (which I thought was the good side). A couple of taps with a 2 pound hammer......... WTH! Completely bondoed over!!










What kind of person would "restore" a car this way??

I'm going to cut up the frame tomorrow. Is there anything worth keeping? The boxing plates look OK, rails from the differential back are OK, back crossmember is good also.

The fun continues........

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Everyday is another surprise on the old frame. I finished removing the rear differential and front suspension........... nice matching front brakes 










Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Another question.
The old frame had the crossmember brackets holding it in. The crossmember is rusted on the ends so is unusable. I was going to reuse the pocket brackets but the crossmember from the new frame has a raised section that won't slide into the brackets so it looks like I'll have to just bolt it to the frame. Should there be rubber insulators between the crossmember and frame?










Thank's in advance.

Allan


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## Squidtone (Nov 26, 2010)

AlT
I believe Chevy used a tubular crossmember that bolted directly to the frame on each side with no rubber.
Buick, Olds and Pontiac A body cars used a stamped/shaped steel crossmember with tabs that fit into rubber "sandwiches". The sandwich was retained by a clamshell clamp thingy and two bolts on each side. I think the BOP cars did it this way to remove just a little more drivetrain vibrations since they were a bit more upscale from the chevys.

I'd say just use whatever works.


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Wow! Almost a year has passed. Time to get back onto this. I need to make some room in the shop. lol
I'm ready to reinstall the engine into the frame and install the 4 speed. Before I do, I'm replacing the pan gasket and rear main seal. I bought the one piece pan gasket and Neoprene (?) rear seal. Is there any trick to installing the two piece rear seal? Anything I need to do when installing the pan gasket? Any installation tips would be appreciated.

I'm also replacing the rear cam plug as it was leaking. I was told by the parts guy to use Permatex 3H on the plug before installing. Have any of you used this stuff before?




























Thanks in advance,

Allan


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

The seal should have come with instructions --- and you should follow them as exactly as you possibly can. When I did mine, the instructions said to seat the seal fully into the groove (cap and block) then carefully trim the ends so that they protrude above the mating surface exactly 1/32" -- and be careful to make the cuts smooth and square. For final assembly fill the 'holes' in the groove with silicone sealant, put a skim coat of sealant on the ends of the seal where you trimmed it, install, torque, and let it sit for 24 hours. You should do this only when you're ready for the crank to go in and stay in because you don't want to disturb the seal after it's installed.

I did all that on my 461 - to the letter - and it still leaks  

I'm guessing that most of the reason is because I also had my block align honed, and that process results in the seal groove being slightly egg-shaped instead of round. If I "get around" to re-doing it, the next time I'm going to use one of the graphite-impregnated rope seals.


Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I've done 3 of these seals so far, and all of them are leak free several years down the road. None of the engines I did were line-honed or bored. You must have CLEAN surfaces and follow the instructions. The crank must be lifted up a bit to get the upper half in cleanly. The crank's oil sling hash marks must NOT intrude on the lip surface of the seal. If yours does, get a graph-tite square rope seal. I have never believed in the one piece pan gaskets, as I've always had great results from the multi-piece units. Just a clean, straight pan, and a dab of the right permatex in the corners. Do NOT overtighten the pan bolts. A nut driver works great instead of a wrench. Looking at your block, you need to knock out ALL the freeze plugs and install brass ones. I did a total reseal on my 400 in the '67 in '11, and wasn't going to, but after looking at what was behind one of them (rust), I did the whole thing. Knock 'em in, and pull 'em out with pliers. Easy peasy.


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## bustac (Oct 21, 2013)

*swap*

I'm doing a similar swap to 4spd and possibly front discs. Did you go with no or used disc parts? Mine is a 64 convertible too.


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

bustac said:


> I'm doing a similar swap to 4spd and possibly front discs. Did you go with no or used disc parts? Mine is a 64 convertible too.


I haven't done anything regarding the disc brake swap. I'm still considering it. I will definitely be going with a dual reservoir master cylinder though.


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Holy crap..... just another 6 months and I finally got the engine resealed.... Thanks to some help from a great guy. Hopefully the next update doesn't take another 6 months. To replace the rear main seal all the mains and rod caps had to come off. All the bearings look new. Definitely a low mileage engine as I had been told.










Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

A bit of an update. Replaced the smaller Skylark sway bar with the beefier one off the original frame and cleaned up the frame engine mounts from the original frame for reinstallation.
Getting closer for engine/tranny install.



Unfortunately while moving the frame around on the week-end, one of the body mounts fell off and rolled into an open hole in the floor (old vacuum pipe for a dust collection system). Would someone have a single new body mount they'd be willing to sell me?

Thanks in advance. 

Allan


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

Al T said:


> Unfortunately while moving the frame around on the week-end, one of the body mounts fell off and rolled into an open hole in the floor (old vacuum pipe for a dust collection system). Would someone have a single new body mount they'd be willing to sell me?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Allan


I have a couple left over from my 66 restoration, if they are what you need PM me your address and I send them to you.


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

05GTO said:


> I have a couple left over from my 66 restoration, if they are what you need PM me your address and I send them to you.


Those are them. PM sent.

Thanks!! 

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Wow....... a sticky!!! The pressures on now. lol
I promise more regular updates.:smile2:

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

The mounts made their way up here to Canada.

Thanks very much Randy!


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Got back yesterday from a 2 week vacation with my kids to St. Louis so back with a bit of progress. I got the frame motor mounts in this evening. Hopefully this week-end the engine and transmission will be in the frame. I just need to replace the rear cam plug before installing the clutch, pressure plate and flywheel.










One of the thousand things I need to do is repaint the firewall as the car is going back to it's original Starlight Black color. Should the firewall be semi-gloss? It appears where they didn't spray it white the original color was a semi-gloss black.










Thanks in advance.

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Well this frees up some space........










Hopefully I'll have the transmission installed this week-end as well. 

I've got an oil impregnated pilot bushing. Do I need to put some grease on the inner race before I install the Muncie? Advice would be appreciated. Online it seems to be a 50/50 draw

Would anyone happen to have a clutch fan they want to get rid of?.

Thanks,

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

I had some trouble getting the old cam plug removed, but with the right persuader I got it out and the new cam plug in. I used an aviation gasket sealant on the wall of the plug to hopefully ensure a leak free future.










I had read horror stories about getting the pilot bushing installed but it went in without any real issues. I ended up heating the bushing up with a torch to open up the pores in the metal, dropped it into some oil to "recharge" it, and then put it in the freezer to cool it down. I put it in place and used a socket and hammer to lightly push it into position. It went in really easily...... and who knew a shop fridge was good for things other than beer! lol










Transmission install this week-end is looking good...... knock on wood.

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

I was able to get the flywheel, clutch and pressure plate installed. 










Now I just need to figure out if one of these forks are correct for this application. If not I'll have to order one. I can't install the bellhousing until I have the correct clutch fork. Would anyone be able to tell if one of these are correct?





























Thanks in advance.

Allan


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## the65gto (Oct 9, 2008)

Here are the choices from Ames Pontiac. they have a free catalog on line that you can download for future reference.


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

the65gto said:


> Here are the choices from Ames Pontiac. they have a free catalog on line that you can download for future reference.


Thanks, I had looked at that. The middle one in my top photo (or second one in the middle photo) looks close but I'm not sure if the Ames one has that much of an offset or is similar in size.

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

I called Ames and they measured the fork for me. None of the ones I had matched so I put in an order for a bunch of stuff to finish off the four speed conversion including the clutch fork. I'm kind of stalled until the parts arrive. Hopefully I can get the firewall painted in the interim.

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Still waiting for the parts from Ames to show up, but I did figure I'd try a little bit of paint stripper on the firewall to see if I could pull off the white paint while retaining the original black. Straight from the can it may be a little too strong as there is a little primer showing. Not sure if that is just how the firewall was sprayed or the stripper pulled original paint off. Can anyone advise if their firewall has primer showing in the areas that wouldn't be seen in the engine bay?
It did leave an interesting inspection stamp though. I'll pull everything off the firewall and try again with the stripper....... Play with the time and mixture and maybe I can salvage the original finish on the firewall. 
Any advice would be appreciated.









Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

The parts showed up. I got the fork installed and the bellhousing on but was too lazy to walk into the house to grab my phone. lol
Any trick to installing the throwout bearing before I install the transmission?

Thanks in advance.


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

A little progress. 










Would anyone be able to post instruction on adjusting the shifter? It's definitely fighting itself. 
I just realized the engine will have to come up one more time to get the exhaust manifolds on. Unfortunately I need to blast and coat them first. Damn it..... they've only been sitting in the blasting cabinet since the body came off the frame. Updates shortly..... hopefully.

Allan


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## the65gto (Oct 9, 2008)

Al T said:


> A little progress.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Both shifting rods need to be on top (parallel) . You have one below, that would screw up the shifting part. My 65 is that way, yours should be the same??? Stock manifolds?? should be able to fit them pretty easy without the body being in the way :-D


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

D'oh! You're right. Thanks. I didn't notice that!



As far as the manifolds, they're stock but from the 66 421 that is in it. Thinking back I wasn't able to get them removed until I lifted the engine from the frame.

Thanks again for noticing the linkage screw-up.

Allan


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## RunninLeMans (Apr 3, 2014)

Al - here's what mine looked like the day I set it up. To adjust, I put the tranny in neutral, inserted the alignment pin in the shifter, threaded each rod in at the shifter starting with the long rod and played with the length one thread at a time until the squared-off tabs on the dogs fit cleanly on the threaded rods at the tranny. If I had the instructions in front of me, I'd have the right terminology...


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

RunninLeMans said:


> Al - here's what mine looked like the day I set it up. To adjust, I put the tranny in neutral, inserted the alignment pin in the shifter, threaded each rod in at the shifter starting with the long rod and played with the length one thread at a time until the squared-off tabs on the dogs fit cleanly on the threaded rods at the tranny. If I had the instructions in front of me, I'd have the right terminology...


Perfect. Thanks!

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Well that was fairly painless. 20 minutes later the transmission now shifts through all 4 gears. It helped mounting the shifter in the right position on the transmission :banghead:. I originally mounted it in the furthest back position which then forced me to install the 1st 2nd rod upside down (not that I recognized that) so I could get the linkage onto the shifter bolt. Once the shifter and mount was in the correct forward spot, I was able to adjust the linkages and everything now shifts smoothly. Oh yeah....... the GTO restoration guide I bought 2 years ago has some pretty good info in it.......










Thanks again for all the comments/advice/help. It's much appreciated.

Allan


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## the65gto (Oct 9, 2008)

Allen, How about looking at this pic, taken this AM of my 4 speed and notice that the shorter arm comes in from behind the lever, not from the front. Looks like your arms may be touching/rubbing the way you have them now. Just try it and see if it seems better. Hang in there. :bannana:


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Thanks. They are tight but don't rub. I will try to flip the linkage onto the back side this evening to make a little room.

The nuts are 3/8"-16?

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

I tried installing the rod on the backside as suggested but the way the rod is bent it would not allow the reverse rod to be installed. I'll have to leave it the way it is. I do have a bushing kit for the arms that I'll install before I button it up for good.



Is it possible to leave the shifter assembly on the transmission but remove the arm? If not it'll all have to come back off when I set the body back on. At least it will be an easy re-install as everything will be adjusted.

Thanks,

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

I got the drive shaft installed and the exhaust manifolds blasted. Hopefully I can get them coated today and installed.










Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

I've used POR 15 exhaust manifold coating a couple of times and have been really happy with the results.
Manifolds before blasting:









After blasting:









Coated:









The manifolds were still wet in the photo. They'll dry with a duller finish.

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

So the manifolds and bolts are coated.










The raised part of the exhaust gasket; does it face the head or the manifold? I'm thinking the exhaust manifold?










Thanks in advance.

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Well I got the starter installed......... for the second time. It helps if you install the flywheel cover first.



I'm trying to decide if there's any point repainting the heads before I install the manifolds? I'm thinking it will just burn off again fairly quickly anyway?

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

OK, I really don't want to remove the starter and have to reinstall it a 3rd time so I can see the marking on the solenoid. Could someone please advise if the purple wire goes on the right or left junction point....... If it's the left I may need a new starter...... please tell me it's the right stud!










Allan


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Al T said:


> OK, I really don't want to remove the starter and have to reinstall it a 3rd time so I can see the marking on the solenoid. Could someone please advise if the purple wire goes on the right or left junction point....... If it's the left I may need a new starter...... please tell me it's the right stud!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looked at a wiring diagram for 1968 -should be the same. Purple wire goes on the good stud. However, so much easier to install a new solenoid now. Add/buy a solenoid heatshield to keep the exhaust manifold from cooking your solenoid.


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Thanks.

:cheers

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

One down, one to go. I really wish I had touched up the heads before I installed the manifolds but I can not find the right paint up here and you can't ship an aerosol can across the border. I'm still thinking it would have burnt off fairly quickly. Oh well, it is what it is.










Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

A little more progress. I cleaned up the wiring sleeve for the starter in the blasting cabinet. I noticed the purple starter wire was baked and the insulation cracking and the wiring exposed. I'm surprised it wasn't shorting out against the sleeve.










I repaired the wire with a shrink sleeve and replaced the connector.










Once that was repaired I installed the sleeve and exhaust manifold.










One thing I noticed is the way the brake line is run it is awfully close to the exhaust manifold. Should I reroute it to get it away from the manifold? Would heat cause the brake fluid to boil?










Thanks,

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

A little more progress in that I got the power steering hoses and belt re-installed and also the rear exhaust hangers installed. I've picked up a solid correct cross-member that will allow me to use the pocket and insulator mounts. Hopefully I can get that cleaned up and installed this week-end.



I've got an appointment for Friday to get the exhaust installed so will update with some photos after that.

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

I had the exhaust installed today. Wow! They did an awesome job. I ended up going with 2-1/4" pipes and Magnaflow mufflers. It will be interesting to see how it sounds.





































Allan


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## the65gto (Oct 9, 2008)

Great pics/progress. Keep them coming!


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Al T said:


> I've picked up a solid correct cross-member that will allow me to use the pocket and insulator mounts. Hopefully I can get that cleaned up and installed this week-end.


OK, well maybe not. Obviously the crossmember I was sold is not a 64-67 "A" body crossmember. Taking another look at the original crossmember it actually doesn't look that bad. I may try to add a little material with my MIG, clean it up and use it...... updates to follow. 










Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Thinking about it, the crossmember is likely for a hardtop frame, not a boxed convertible frame. Oh well, live and learn.
I did get a little accomplished today before I head out with my kids for Thanksgiving dinner with family.

I got the Z-bar bracket welded on and the z-bar installed.











I also tore the linkage apart and replaced the bushings and realigned the shifter. I really think the shifter rods are screwed up so I'd like to replace them. Does anyone know where I can buy just the 1st and 2nd and the 3rd and 4th shifter rods? Any leads would be appreciated.


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## the65gto (Oct 9, 2008)

Here is one link for shifter linkage kit 1965-1967 Shifter Linkage Kit - 935012-web10000 Might give the guy a call. 

Here is a rather long but very detailed video on the linkage set up etc. This is not your exact muncie transmission but a very good video/lesson. Actual linkage setup is about 2/3 of the way thru.


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Thanks!


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Well this may be the last update for a couple of months. The more I looked at the floor, the more I realized the only way I was going to be happy with the car was to replace it. I've ordered a full floor with braces and inner rockers from AMD. I don't have the time (or likely skills) to properly replace it myself so the car is going into Kustom King for the work. I'm hoping to have the car back in a few months. In preparation of this, I had some buddies help me set the body back onto the frame so I can move it to the shop. It is kind of nice having it look like a car again.



I've been having trouble finding a oil filter that will fit. I originally ordered a filter for a 66 Catalina w/ 421 but it was too long and hit the lower control arm.



I then ordered a filter for a 64 GTO with 389 and the filter was about a 3/8 of an inch shorter but still hit the lower control arm. Looking at the filter that was on the car before I disassembled it, the oil filter is definitely a short canister filter. Unfortunately that filter is long gone. Could somebody please advise a filter that will fit? The manufacturer and part # would be appreciated. I'd like to get the filter on and the engine filled before it sits in the body shop.



(of all the times to have a blurry photo......)

Thanks in advance.

Allan


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## the65gto (Oct 9, 2008)

A Delco PF24 is called out, the dimensions are:

Anti-Drainback Valve:	Yes
Case Diameter:	3.66 in
Efficiency:	98% @ 30mc mc
Filter Bypass Relief Valve:	No
Filter Type/Category:	3-5/8" Oil
Gasket Inside Diameter:	2.42 in
Gasket Outside Diameter:	2.81 in
Height:	4.21 in
Maximum Burst Pressure:	300 PSI
Oil Filter Type:	3-5/8" Oil
Spin On:	Yes
Thread Size:	13/16-16 UNS 

See how 4.21 inches compares to the one you are using. 4.21" for 421 CI ????


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

the65gto said:


> A Delco PF24 is called out, the dimensions are:
> 
> Anti-Drainback Valve:	Yes
> Case Diameter:	3.66 in
> ...


Thanks! Definitely shorter than what I've tried on it.

Allan


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## RunninLeMans (Apr 3, 2014)

There's a couple different oil filter holder shapes, too, my original '64 tilted back toward the engine a little to clear the frame, but the '67 motor that's in it now has a straight one like yours and the Fram, ACDelco, etc. all bumped. The only filter I could find to fit was a Bosch 3423.


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

The parts guy I deal with couldn't source the Delco or Bosch, but he did come up with a WIX interchange. 51258. 

A couple of things to get done today and the car goes to the body shop tomorrow as the floor has arrived.

I'll see if they can take some photos as they replace the floor.

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

I had everything done that needed to be done by mid afternoon so off it went....










It's amazing how differently the rear sits with the new frame under it.

Before.......









After.......









Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

The car is still at Kustom King for the floor pan replacement. I need to get over there one of these days to see how things are going.
In the mean time I have still been spending time in the shop. I've been able to move a '55 Cameo I have off the back burner. If you're interested you can follow my progress here.

55 Cameo......... lot's of questions coming. - TriFive.com, 1955 Chevy 1956 chevy 1957 Chevy Forum , Talk about your 55 chevy 56 chevy 57 chevy - Belair , 210, 150 sedans , Nomads and Trucks, Research, Free Tech Advice

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

I just got off the phone with the shop and the floor replacement will begin next week. Photos to follow.

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

It's coming along....





Old floor pan out.... notice the missing floor brace!

















Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

During the disassembly, when I pulled the gas tank I could see a double layer. I had assumed the trunk had been repaired by laying a new pan over the old one from the inside. Prior to the floor replacement they put the body on a rotisserie and blasted the underside of the car and the seams inside. Once blasted it was evident all the "restorer" had done was laid fibreglass over the trunk floor. The car is getting a complete new trunk pan now as well ....... it did look nice from inside the trunk though, just like the bondo'd seams on the original frame. Who does work like this???









Allan


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

I read through this entire thread for the first time yesterday. Very good documentation of this entire arduous project. Talk about a "can of worms", the tin worms did a number on your body and frame. Glad to see you are doing this right Al, not just for the integrity of the car but for you and your families safety. That beautiful car was a death trap with that rotten frame and body. 

I don't know how long you have owned this car or who you bought it from but I would think you would have possible legal recourse if someone sold you this car and represented it as something it is not :smash:. I'm not "that guy" who sues anyone he thinks he can make a buck off of but if you bought this from a dealer who is pawning turds like this off on unsuspecting folks he should be stopped, and punished. :00/o:

Not a lot of people would have gone through all you have to save this car and my hats off to you sir.


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

ALKYGTO said:


> I read through this entire thread for the first time yesterday. Very good documentation of this entire arduous project. Talk about a "can of worms", the tin worms did a number on your body and frame. Glad to see you are doing this right Al, not just for the integrity of the car but for you and your families safety. That beautiful car was a death trap with that rotten frame and body.
> 
> I don't know how long you have owned this car or who you bought it from but I would think you would have possible legal recourse if someone sold you this car and represented it as something it is not :smash:. I'm not "that guy" who sues anyone he thinks he can make a buck off of but if you bought this from a dealer who is pawning turds like this off on unsuspecting folks he should be stopped, and punished. :00/o:
> 
> Not a lot of people would have gone through all you have to save this car and my hats off to you sir.


Thanks, I appreciate the comments.The car deserves to be done right.
I'm not much of one for litigation either. The previous owner bought the car finished from an estate sale. He was a private seller and when I contacted him after receiving the car he was truly sorry and was disappointed with the issues with the car. Caveat Emptor. It is what it is.

When the shop blasted the underside they identified some other issues that are now being rectified. I've got to say the shop does nice work!

















Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Would anyone be able to post the page from the '67 assembly manual showing the location and size for the hole for the shifter? Looking at Ames Performance site it appears the oldest assembly manual available is a '67?

Photos of the floor would help also.

Thanks in advance.

Edit: Never mind. The search function is a useful tool. lol


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

The body is coming along, so this week-end's project is to convert the auto console I have to a 4 speed. If any one needs the auto console parts and a nice shifter assembly, PM me. I'll be documenting the conversion. The diecast parts from PG Classic are really nice,









Allan


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## FMFC motorsports (Mar 21, 2015)

Such a cool build, glad u found that frame! Doesn't happen too often


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Thanks.

So I've seen a few console bases that had huge chunks cut out for the 4 speed top plate to fit. I wanted to leave as much material as possible to strengthen the base so I placed the top plate in, marked more or less where I thought I needed to remove material, and used an air Dremel with a small cut off disc. Took about 5 minutes and I'm happy with the results.

Marked out.



Cut.
I did end up having to cut off the little tab with the hole that was curled up a bit. It interfered with the shift pocket.



Everything fits with the small piece of the base still intact.



Found one small crack that needed repair. I used some Gorilla glue to fix it and gave the console a light scuff so once the repair cures, I should be able to paint it tomorrow.



I had looked on-line for details on how to do this and didn't find any so hopefully this helps someone going forward. I was really glad I was able to keep the base continuous. In hind sight, I probably could have left some more of the base but this will work.

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

The Gorilla glue worked great. It's a water activated adhesive.

First coat.



Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Painted. It's still a little tacky so I'll reassemble in a couple hours.



The console is actually painted consistently, the lighter spot towards the back is glare off the 10" of snow we got the last two days.... I had the door open. Wasn't the first day of spring a couple of days ago??

Alaln


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

That looks better. 



Next up is the pedal assembly.

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Things are progressing. The trunk is finished and the body is permanently bolted back down onto the frame. They're going to get the body ready for paint then I'm going to bring it home, get it running/driving and the interior back in it and then take it back for paint. I'm getting excited to see this thing back in it's original starlight black.


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Prepping for paint, all these additional issues were discovered. I didn't realize the car was a factory lightweight. lol.
This is all in the process of being repaired. Car will definitely be nice and solid.

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)




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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

All the metal work is done and the car will be coming home in the next couple weeks to reinstall the interior and get it running/driving before paint. I pulled the pedal assembly apart, blasted it, painted it, installed new bushings and pedal pads and reassembled. Took a lot less time than I thought.



The quarter extensions are a bit wonky and not fitting properly. Would anyone have a nice set they'd be willing to sell?



Thanks,

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Just about ready for me to bring home and get running and reinstall the interior.


Allan


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Sure is coming along nicely. Can't wait to see it finished. You are on the home stretch now.


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

The car is back at home and the process of getting it running and the interior installed begins....... then back for paint.
I really wish I had given them the shifter assembly to install before they dropped the body. Live and learn.










The bad billet wheel is not staying. It just needed to steer with the OEM tilt column installed. The stock wheel doesn't bottom out on the shaft. I'll have to pull the wheel off and take a photo and maybe I can get some advice whether I'm missing a spacer or something?

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Well, I've got a clutch that is now adjusted and works, and most of the wiring and firewall accessories are buttoned up. I need to install the steering column, fill it with coolant and bleed the brakes and I should be able to fire it up and get it back to the shop for final paint. Could somebody advise the screw size to hold the column plate to the firewall? I've misplaced the bag with those screws.





I'll hopefully get it running this week-end. I'll post a video when I do. That is going to be a big step forward.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

It's looking real good!!


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Thanks.

Would anybody know if the firewall seal for the rectangular opening next to the firewall wiring plugs (the remote mirror cable passes through this hole) is available? I can't find it in the Ames catalogue.

Thanks in advance.

Allan


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## G20 (Jul 22, 2015)

I've been following this thread closely. The car looks amazing. Job well done!


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Went to turn the car over and had nothing. Thought about it and realized that with the floor shift column I installed I now have no neutral safety switch. I jumped the neutral safety plug under the dash and the engine now does what it's supposed to when I turn the key.
Is there a neutral safety switch available for the clutch pedal? I can't see it in the Ames catalogue. I had a 69 442 years ago and the clutch had to be fully depressed for the starter to engage so I know something is out there.

Thanks in advance.

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

*It's alive.*

This has been a long long process. When I pulled the car apart in the fall of 2012, I had no idea it would take this long. Life kind of gets in the way and secondary interests fall by the wayside.
This afternoon, the old beast came alive. It was amazing having sat for nearly 3 years it actually fired immediately (not on the video) but was just off of the squirt of fuel into the center carb.
The car's got a new fuel tank and all new fuel lines so it took a while for the fuel to make it's way through the system. It moved forward and back on it's own as well....... although not recommended without a steering column or brakes.:wink2:

The end's in sight.



:cheers

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

I forgot to mention. I'm really happy with the sound of the Magnaflow mufflers that were installed. Waiting a year to hear what it sounds like was a challenge, but it sounds good.



Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

It now steers........ Just need to bleed the brakes.
The posi rear is doing what it should.



Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Well that sucks. Went to bleed the brakes and broke off the RR bleeder. Picked up a new brake cylinder today. Updates to follow. 

Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

I replaced the brake cylinder with the snapped off bleeder so I now have brakes, but the front driver's side bleeder I can't even get a wrench on as the bleeder is tight up against the spindle mount. I think I'll probably do a front disc brake conversion as I would really like to be able to brake with confidence.

Once I got it running, the shifting sucked with the rods (after adjusting) that came with the "original 64" shifter I purchased off eBay. I couldn't get it into second at all as it was binding on the shifter lever housing on the transmission. It is early, but with the Hurst logo on the shifter shaft, it's obviously not a '64. It shifts though....... now.
I finally gave up and ordered a shifter kit from Ames. The Ames rods are on top, the ones that came with my eBay purchase are below. No wonder I was having binding issues!



The car now shifts really good. I have a small adjustment to do on the 1-2 rod, but it'll be an easy adjustment.

It is really amazing how differently the car performs with the Muncie in it vs. the automatic. The car has not been driven in 3 years, but with nothing done to the engine other than an oil change, this thing is a monster with the 4 speed....... and the Posi works fine. 



It is going to be a lot of fun to drive. This was just with a touch on the gas. Is there really that much of a difference between an auto and 4 speed or was there some issue with the automatic? Stepping into it with the auto, it would bog, now it just revs and goes! Maybe it just needed a 3 year sabbatical? 
I would love to hear some opinions on the auto vs. manual because it truly is a different car.

Allan.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Al T said:


> I would love to hear some opinions on the auto vs. manual because it truly is a different car.
> 
> Allan.



Most likely because the manual trans requires you to rev up the engine as you release the clutch and nail it. The first gear ratio is a little better than the automatic, so a slight edge in take off performance.

HOWEVER, the automatic is actually a faster transmission when set up correctly. It obviously will shift quicker than you will with a manual and it will be far more consistent -plus it is easier on the driveline because the torque converter acts like a shock absorber.

BUT, the key is the converter. If you had used something like a 2,500 RPM stall converter, you might not be seeing the difference. The converter has more "slip" when you nail the pedal under full load, so your engine would snap up instantly to 2,500 RPM's putting it into a much better power band than the stock converter would at the same full load. So to simplify, think of the converter as a spring which gets instantly wound up to 2,500 RPM's under full throttle, puts your engine in a strong torque band, and at a good point which begins your engine's horsepower climb.

Drop your clutch at 2,500 RPM's and see what happens. The 2,500 stall converter would be similar. So it has more to do with the torque converter than the swap.

BTW Great pic looking over those 3 carbs...........and why I have always liked running without a hood with multi-carb set-ups. :thumbsup:


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Jim,

Good points. The way it drove with the automatic, it felt like a 1200RPM stall converter... lol

What really matters is it's going to be a lot more enjoyable with the 4 speed.


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Well, it went back to the body shop for final paint today. I'm really looking forward to seeing the final product.



Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

A little bit of color....







Allan


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Looking good!!!


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

It's getting closer. It looks like a completely different car! 





Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

*Getting closer*



Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)




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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

It has been a long journey...... I started the disassembly in fall 2012. Wow!
The car is being hauled back home this afternoon. I should be able to get the interior back into it this week-end, and it will be done. Just waiting to pick up some red line tires for it. Whew!
I'm really amazed at how much better the car looks in it's original Starlight Black.






Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

I had bought the sound deadener from Ames a while ago.



Unfortunately I tried ordering new carpet about a month ago from Ames and it was on back order. I started installing the old carpet and it just looks bad. I'm going to try to reorder the carpet. I guess I should never have had said "back in this week-end". :nonod:



Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Had to share this photo.



......and another one.



Allan


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

The carpet showed up this week so I should be able to finally get the interior back in. Should get some updated photos later this week.

One quick question. Is there a short throw and long throw setting on the shifter/linkages. When I put the console in position, it seems the shift pattern is longer than the shifter opening in the console? Any comments/advice would be appreciated.

Allan


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Al T said:


> The carpet showed up this week so I should be able to finally get the interior back in. Should get some updated photos later this week.
> 
> One quick question. Is there a short throw and long throw setting on the shifter/linkages. When I put he console in position, it seems the shift pattern is longer than the shifter opening in the console? Any comments/advice would be appreciated.
> 
> Allan



Don't know of any long/short throw settings. Factory original shifter & linkages? Some after market shifters won't work with the factory console. Maybe wrong stick/shape for the console?


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

PontiacJim said:


> Don't know of any long/short throw settings. Factory original shifter & linkages? Some after market shifters won't work with the factory console. Maybe wrong stick/shape for the console?


Thanks for the reply. I'm using this shifter which I was told was from a '65 GTO. 



I did have to change the linkages as they were so screwed up I couldn't get the shifter adjusted.

The new linkages are the top ones. 



I'm using a '65 4 speed console plate so that shouldn't be the issue?

Thanks,

Allan


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Al T said:


> Thanks for the reply. I'm using this shifter which I was told was from a '65 GTO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Allan,

No expert on ID'ing what you have let alone give you any good advice. However, check out the Hurst website. They ID the different sticks they offer. Seems like yours would be straight enough to work, but I can't say for sure - Stick Diagrams, Shifter Assembly Diagrams, Transmission ID Charts - HurstShifters 

I recall in the FAQ section they mentioned the linkage made for factory cars is different than the aftermarket pieces and might create a problem.

If it were me, I would take a good hard look at the mounting tabs that bolt to the shifting forks on the transmission itself and to which you linkages attach to. Personally, they kinda look a bit tall, ie the distance from the trans mounting hole (the rectangle) to the round hole where you connect the linkage rod. I don't know if these come in differing distances or not. If you had a shorter distance between those holes, you would effectively shorten the throw.

Me, cause I'm cheap and willing to experiment, might actually drill new linkage rod mounting holes below the existing holes *IF* the linkage rods can be dropped down without interfering with any part of the transmission or linkage rods so as to cause them to bind up. This would give you a shorter throw, but also cause the shifting of the gears to require a little more effort because you have changed the pivoting points by shortening them (making them closer). Check out the photo (super size it) at this link and look at the shifter linkage to transmission tabs - these are drilled for 2 holes - 1967-1968 Shifter Assembly with Mounting Bracket Installed & Muncie Linkage (wit - 3934290K-web0

You might be able to simply find a different set of the linkage tabs that will work rather than modify yours.

Hope this might give you a few ideas anyway. :thumbsup:


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Wow...... it' s been almost 3 months. A couple of other projects have been taking up my time. Found some time to get back on this. Thanks for the shifter suggestions.

The new carpet showed up a couple months ago so I spent a couple of hours yesterday and installed it. I left it out in the sun to soften up a bit and then used the old carpet as a template for the shifter hole location, everything else I cut in place once I had the carpet laying flat. It actually fits really nicely and what a difference from the old sun faded carpet!







I need to get the sill plates, kick panels and console installed (I did install the front bracket) and chase down some electrical issues and the car will be done. Everything worked electrically prior to disassembly but now I have no wipers, heater fan, dash lights, courtesy lights, or gas gauge. I have a feeling it will likely be a pretty simple fix once I crawl under the dash. The dash was left in but wrapped during the body repairs on the rotisserie so first look will be for bad fuses and then loose connections.

Allan


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Other projects? As close to done as you are, this would be THE project, period. LOL 

I know you are going to go with the console, but without it, that stick looks more business like and clean looking. I like just a shifter and boot over a console and its what I will have when my car's done.

Looking really good.


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

PontiacJim said:


> Other projects? As close to done as you are, this would be THE project, period. LOL
> 
> I know you are going to go with the console, but without it, that stick looks more business like and clean looking. I like just a shifter and boot over a console and its what I will have when my car's done.
> 
> Looking really good.


Thanks. 

I know what you mean! I've been looking at the shifter with no console and liking it a lot as well.

Allan


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## NFDMedic (May 27, 2016)

Do you have a console?


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

NFDMedic said:


> Do you have a console?


I have a restored 4 speed console for the car, just not sure whether to install it or not.

I did get the tips installed.





Allan


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## stich (Feb 15, 2016)

Hey Allen, just like to say thanks for the very good thread on your project. I just about ready to start mine (67 verses 64) and a 4speed conversion as well. Still picking up parts for mine but had to re-read all 13 pages here before I started. Lots to consider. I too am picking up a frame for mine as mine is toast. The one question I do have is the rockers. My inner rocker on drivers side is bad. Can or should I replace this before I take the body off or do I reinforce the body, remove it and then cut out the rockers? Nice to see all you went through on the 4 speed conversion so I don't have the same problems. Thanks for that. Forgot about the z bar bracket completely and would have wondered where to weld it on. Your pictures are very informative all around. Just curious as to what the body shop charges to weld in a new floor. I realize you are in Canada but can't get any kind of rough estimate where I'm at (rural community with only a few body shops) . Now one here wants to commit to a price.I may do this myself as I can pick up the separate floor pieces an replace only the bad sections. Anyway, thanks again for the valuable info. Your car looks AMAZING!!!! 



my rocker area:


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## 64GTOConvertible (Aug 28, 2016)

If you think the rocker is structurally bad, I would replace it before separating the body from the frame. All the advice you see about a project like that is brace, brace and more brace. That does you no good if the body is weak. 

Good luck!


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Sorry,

I haven't been to the site in a while. For some reason I don't get alerts when someone posts on this thread. Gas gauge issue turned out to be a lack of gas. lol Go figure.
I still have to chase down the other electrical issues described earlier and install the kick panels, and sill plates. Just too many other distractions in the shop and the GTO is covered and tucked away for the winter. I should be able to knock the remaining out in a day this spring. It is amazing how much differently the car drives/rides/handles with the new frame. The one thing I likely will do in the spring is replace the front springs. I've been thinking about it and the new frame I put under the car as mentioned had a V6 in it when I bought the '65 Skylark. I don't think the front springs are going to be up to the weight of the 421.
Stitch: If you have any questions at all while you do your frame replacement, don't hesitate to send me a PM, I'd be more than happy to offer any answers I can. It seems to me the shop charged me 16 hours to replace the floor..... and then they replaced the entire trunk as well.... for more hours. That was a couple years ago so I'm going off of memory. The shop rate up here is $95/hr. Personally, I'd try to replace the rockers on the frame.

I'll provide one final update in the spring when the car is finally done.

Allan


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