# What should I do...?



## herecomedajudge (Feb 16, 2017)

Hi, this is my 1st post here. I have a 66 convertible. The PHS docs obtained from the VIN do not match the data plate and not sure how to find out why...
The vin shows a blue convertible with black top and blue interior, 389 3 speed, no power, no ac but the data tag shows it as a montero red convertible with white top and parchment interior and a 4 speed. the car also has p/w, p/s, p/b and what appears to be factory A/C. the build date on tag shows 2nd week of January but the invoice date from PHS is May 1966? https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/with/32545880390/


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

Does the VIN indicate the same plant build as the data tag (PON)?

Did the PHS documents verify the correct VIN # you submitted?

Does your VIN tag have rosette rivets?

That is not a good situation.


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## GTOJUNIOR (Aug 7, 2011)

Resale RED is very popular in the GTO community.
Just attend any large/national event and you'll see exactly what Im talking about.

There are probably double if not triple the actual production of RED 1966 GTOs with TRI-POWER.

That said it sounds like just another case, Repaint and Acc Trim Tag Swap.
You can have them made to say anything you wish;
TRIM TAGS - Home 

If the VIN matches the title and PHS then this is likely the case.


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## herecomedajudge (Feb 16, 2017)

PHS believes the trim tag is correct and the VIN is not but apparently no way to know for sure. We put the car on the lift and used a mirror and flashlight to find a VIN stamped on the frame but couldnt find anything. We did find 042566 (april 25, 1966?) stamped on rear chassis near fuel tank drivers side, that could jive with the 5/10/66 invoice date? Also if the VIN were correct then the car would have no p/s, p/w, p/b. and be a 3 speed..could someone add all of those power options and also change it from a 3 speed to a 4 speed...Is it possible the data tag is correct and the VIN is not? How could I find out. This would make a huge difference if we wanted to sell the car.


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## herecomedajudge (Feb 16, 2017)

Roger, Yes the plant is pontiac, MI on the tag and the VIN, Yes the PHS has the same VIN from the car,


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## herecomedajudge (Feb 16, 2017)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/32935238585/in/dateposted-public/
pic of vin plate with production number removed.


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## herecomedajudge (Feb 16, 2017)

pic of data tag
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/32545872960/in/dateposted-public/


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

herecomedajudge said:


> PHS believes the trim tag is correct and the VIN is not but apparently no way to know for sure. We put the car on the lift and used a mirror and flashlight to find a VIN stamped on the frame but couldnt find anything. We did find 042566 (april 25, 1966?) stamped on rear chassis near fuel tank drivers side, that could jive with the 5/10/66 invoice date? Also if the VIN were correct then the car would have no p/s, p/w, p/b. and be a 3 speed..could someone add all of those power options and also change it from a 3 speed to a 4 speed...Is it possible the data tag is correct and the VIN is not? How could I find out. This would make a huge difference if we wanted to sell the car.



If you're wanting to sell the car and suspect the VIN is incorrect for the car, PHS suggests it may be, you may want to consult with the State Police for advice. Right now you're stuck as you already know. For all anyone knows that VIN may be in their data base. If it were me? That would be my next step.


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## linden_gto (Jan 9, 2017)

if you just bought this car, i'd try to verify and remedy this situation as quickly as possible. if you can, go back to the seller and ask them what they know about the discrepancies. this will be a pita when you try to sell to knowing buyers and i would want to avoid that. if it were just a color issue, i could understand it. but, the 2 cars you've described (what you have and what PHS says) are quite a bit different.


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

A few questions, how long have you owned the vehicle? Were you planning on selling the car? 

Considering you sent in for the PHS info (invoice copy) using the VIN attached in the door jamb, & the date of that build jives with the frame build date, the car is most likely a blue '66 GTO convert, 3spd, 4bbl car with manual steering. 

Wanting to further pursue what is up with the car, it is going to take some disassembly. If I was tasked to investigate this car, I would go after the one option that would take the most effort to add to this car. In doing so, would want to remove the hood & passenger side fender & inner fender, & remove the complete outer AC box assembly, & then carefully examine the face of the cowl. Most likely, I would also remove the front seats & console & remove the front carpet section & the front kick panels. Having parted many, many early A-body parts cars, & having sold quite a few inner & outer AC box assemblies to restorers, there are telltales to whether a car was originally equipped with factory AC, or if a previous owner/restorer added factory AC. Most that added factory AC did not do so by going to the extreme effort of propperly replacing the entire face of the cowl, drilling out all the spotwelds & separating the face of the cowl on both a non AC body & a factory AC body. On many factory AC added cars, the pass side of the heater car cowl has been cutout with an airsaw & cutoff wheel then an exact sized piece of the passenger side face has been cut out of a factory AC donor car, then the donor piece is buttwelded in.

Not wanting to pursue this investigative effort, you have what you have: what the VIN & PHS invoice copy states the car is: a low option blue '66 GTO Convert 3spd car that has gained a body tag off a 4 month earlier GTO convert. Unfortunately, this kind of tag swap has been fairly common with the unscrupulous in the hobby. 

The other alternative, & even worse, is you have the body shell of a red '66 GTO convert AC car, with numerous options, which has had a VIN swap. Many times such vehicles come to "notariaty" due to some previous "restorer" buying a project car without a VIN tag, then finding a same assembly plant GTO convert VIN tag that he/she could attach to the red body. Unfortunately, there is a segment in the muscle car hobby that believe they can do anything they want, then represent the vehicle as something it isn't, then profit on the vehicle's sale. Many of them believe they are "saving a car", or my favorite... " having fun building a hotrod". Whatever one calls such the latter mess, it can be proven as fraud in the court system. 

In your position, if you've had the car for quite some time, I'd get with TrimTags & have a repro trim tag made noting the correct color, build week, alphanumeric option codes, then most likely going to have to extrapolate a proper Body number to have embossed on the tag. Am not sure if that Body number is on the copy of the old IBM card that Pontiac kept records with or not, I'd have to look at some '67 build card records I have.


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## 64GTOConvertible (Aug 28, 2016)

I discovered a VIN on the underside of the rear deck - where the trunk hinges mount. I was parting out the car and only found it after I cut the panels out. If I were you I would crawl around and look in all the known VIN locations and see what you have. As others have said, the data plate is an easy change, but the rivets are hard to duplicate. Not impossible, but hard. 

All your options could have easily been added. My 67 is originally an auto/2bbl, but is now a stock looking 4 speed manual. PS is a simple add, PB even easier. 3 speed to 4 speed is cake. A/C is much harder but not impossible.

Good luck!


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

I looked over your VIN tag and cowl tag pretty hard. The VIN does have the rosette rivets which tends to indicate factory applied. Each plant does various things slightly differently. The cowl tags are where you could see how one plant varies from another plant. Your cowl tag looks legit for a PON build. The one thing I do see missing is the fixture or sometimes called a gate number which tends to be at the bottom right side on the PON tags. This gate number is the plant's location where the body was welded up.


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