# PCV valve issue? Wagner? Anyone using?



## HiVolts (Jan 27, 2020)

Just about every time after I take the GTO for a spin the oil dipstick pops out. Not enough to spill oil out the top. I believe the engine not breathing right then?

So I pulled the current PCV valve. Appears it has foam in it from previous owner. No rattle during shaking. Attaching a couple pics.

I called Wagner. Is the pic attached a good baffle in the valley pan? He was worried I might not have a baffle. Also, is anyone using the Wagner? Thanks


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

HiVolts said:


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The valley pan, if stock, is baffled. It is made of 2 plates spot welded together. It is hard to really get clean as you can only get so much "stuff" out from between the 2 pieces. Some will separate the 2 pieces at the spot welds, clean, and then weld back up. I have never done this on any of them. I suppose it is a good idea, but not everyone can do this. Might be easier to get a new one knowing it is clean, or an aftermarket one that has the PCV valve grommet hole.

You have internal pressures being built up within the engine at higher RPM's which is pushing the dipstick up. Not good as too much pressure can push gaskets and/or even a rear main seal out.

The need and use of a breather on each valve cover can help. The internal pressure needs to get out and a breather on each, instead of just one side, will usually cure the problem.

I do believe Lemansguy uses the Wagner and has posted about it before.


HiVolts said:


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Seemed to lose my first replay, so if the second appears, I'm not senile yet! Stupid forum format aint' better.

The valley pan is made of 2 pieces spot welded together and the lower panel would in effect make an oil baffle. Some like to undo the spot welds and separate the 2 pieces to get all the crud out from between the 2 panels and then reweld. I have never done this and suspect not something most will do.

Your engine is developing internal pressures from the pistons pumping air inside at high RPM's. The pressure has to go somewhere and one of those things is the dipstick pushes up and out to act as a vent.

This would indicate that you may want to use 2 breathers on the valve covers - one on each side. This will allow the pressures to vent and should solve your problem.

*Lemans guy* uses the Wagner PCV and has posted about it before. Here is one of his posts: Opinions wanted on rear main seal(s)


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## HiVolts (Jan 27, 2020)

Thank you PontiacJim. So the black grommet stuck in my valley wouldn’t suffice for a Wagner?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

HiVolts said:


> Thank you PontiacJim. So the black grommet stuck in my valley wouldn’t suffice for a Wagner?


Could not tell you that. What you have does not look factory to begin with. Check out the Wagner website for their installation or PM Lemans guy. He most likley has photos of it installed on his engine.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Thanks PJ, Hivolts, no that rubber grommet in your photo is an aftermarket grommet that is supposed to reduce the oil sucked by the PCV it doesn’t. I have tried that baffle in the valley pan and in an unbaffled valve cover. They suck plenty of oil, I can calculate the amount in my catch can.

if you have the original valley pan it is baffled as PJ said. Is so, you can buy an ME Wagner dual flow PCV valve and their Pontiac adapter and fit it right in the same whole. That will fix your pressure problems, stop oil leaks and dipsticks blowing out, oil out of breathers. If you have a good PCV there use at least one but could use two breathers in the valve covers. I use small K&N breathers, they have them very small but allow good air flow. Those chrome and oil caps with only hidden holes are ok for looks, but the K&N breath better I think.

if your Valley pan is unbaffled, look in there with a flashlight,..you can swiitch your PCV to the valve cover, just use baffled valve covers. I can give you the brand if you need it. All those baffled grommets do not work.

whatever you do use a PCV valve even if you just run a standard one , but the standard ones only pull a vacumn 20 to 30% of the time, the ME Wagner pulls it 99% of the time. The standard PCV is not working for your crankcase pressure problem. Often our cars are modified from the original engine specs and the PCV is still the same old cheap $5 piece imported, not tuned for your hot rod.

the good news is it is an ez fix, make sure it is baffled, the get an ME Wagner and dial it in


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## HiVolts (Jan 27, 2020)

LeMans,
Thanks, will check today if valley is baffled.


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## HiVolts (Jan 27, 2020)

Here’s a Valley picture. Baffled or not? Thanks


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## HiVolts (Jan 27, 2020)

Here’s a pic of the current PCV valve with Foam in it. Previous owner did at some time.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Looking at the photos, it appears you have an aftermarket aluminum valley pan, so I am going to say no baffle and why the previous owner "rigged" it up as he did. That "stuffing" in the PCV valve is BS and is only plugging up the PCV and contributing to your pressure problems.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

PJ is right, that PCV is blocked up, that is an aftermarket valley pan. I use one too, but that perforated thingy is supposed to act as a baffle. To start with just get a new clean PCV and put it in there. It will pull some amount of oil thru it and may not relieve all of your crankcase pressure.

you can get a catch can, I use one a radium engineering one and route the PCV thru that it will keep your intake clean and you can then see how much oil that you pull thru.

or you can use a baffled valve cover and put PCV in there. Where it will suck less oil especially if it is an ME Wagner which is real effect.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

CFR Performance makes baffled Pontiac valve covers, even with a Wagner valve barely pulls any oil. That is the one I use. I then just put a Russell 45 degree 5/8 elbow into the Pontiac adapter that goes in the valley pan which I got from MEWagner. I screw a AN fitting cap on that and it is my oil fill. I had to do that because my aftermarket valley pan was unbaffled.


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## HiVolts (Jan 27, 2020)

Found a valley pan grommet that just might work for baffling. Made for Pontiac unbaffled valleys. Year One part # AL59. I’ll order this first to see if it lessens blow by with a new PCV valve before I go with either a valve cover or valley pan replacement. If new grommet stops oil flow then I’ll spring for the Wagner. More to come..


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Try it, but I have used that exact one and all other so called “Baffled grommets” none worked,....with the ME Wagner valve it will pull too much oil.....

with a standard PCV it will be less because the valve is so inefficient compared to the wagner. The only real way to tell how much oil it sucks through is with a catch can. But you can look in your intake and check your dipstick to see if some is disappearing...

maybe it will work better for you, I think you are wise to try it and see.


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## HiVolts (Jan 27, 2020)

Lemans,

Much thanks. Will try a $20 fix first. I’d love to put it to a valve cover and cap the aftermarket Valley. But the Butler valve cover passenger side is closed and unbaffled if I was to even drill a hole. Not sure why Butler thinks a non breathing engine is okay is a deeper topic... 

Car runs much cleaner since I put a 69 Camaro DZ 302 PCV valve in it. No hesistation, although I burned 4-6 ounces of oil in 70 miles and it still popped out the dipstick. No Oil on valve covers gaskets or anywhere else leaking.. So I shall continue to tinker, lol.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

You have found the key issue Hivolts, many guys don’t and they have leaking rear main seals, oil out the breathers on a hard run, dipstick popping,...but you found it and are fixing it. That CFR performance baffled valve cover works great with an ME Wagner.. the Wagner pulling 99% of the time it pills 1 ounce of oil and crud every one thousand miles. Say 3 ounces on a 3000 mile oil change. I have a 20 ounce catch can, with a dipstick so I check.

I could go for six oil changes or 18,000 miles before I would have to empty it. I empty it earlier and get the crud out, it also keeps it from going in my intake.

no oil leaks, no pressure buildup and the best thing is how smooth the engine runs when you have a 1 to 3 HG vacuum on the crankcase all the time. That means the pistons and rings are not going down against pressure, but a slight vacumn,...and it cleans it out.

The old cars you may recall all had road draft tubes that vented the crankcase out a rubber hose draped over the back over the engine. All the roads had good oil slicks in the center. The draft tube did not work at idle but only underway when the sliced tube end created a slight draft pull on the crankcase. That was the 30’s, 40’s, 50’s etc.

GM made a lot of tank engines in WW2 and the War Department (Pre-Pentagon) called GM and said the tanks were stalling in the rivers in Europe. GM engineers found out that water was going up the road draft tube and hydro-locking the engines.

so they developed a closed system, the PCV system, since crankcase had to be ventilated for the engine to last and get the crud, blow-by and condensation out,...that is how they fixed it.

fast forward to 1963 and the G asks GM if they would share there invention with the Auto manufacturers assn. because it would be good for emissions ALSO. It was never developed for emissions, but it helps emissions and is necessary for your engines life and operation.

so stay with it, you are on the right track!!


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## Roqetman (Aug 31, 2015)

Lemans guy, I see this is an old post but it‘s very interesting to me. I’ve noticed my dipstick pops up and rear main seal is leaking and oil consumption is concerning considering miles driven (but no blue smoke). My ‘65 389 w/Q-jet has the original valley pan with the standard (cheap-o) PCV Valve in front of the distributor, not the easiest place to get to. The grommet is not baffled. The valve covers are aftermarket and not baffled. If I were to invest in the Wagner PCV where would be the best location for the PCV, valley pan or valve cover? My engine has ‘69 RAIII heads and revs up really quick. Is it really possible that these oil related issues could be resolved with a Wagner PCV valve??? Also, you mentioned a catch can, where does that go in the PCV system? Pictures would be nice. Mine is a street car not a race car, is the catch can needed for street applications? Thanks in advance for you advice on this! Roqetman.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Roquetman, yes sounds like you have too much crankcase pressure. Classic signs, dipstick rear main seal and probably have oil coming out of the breather.

if you have the original valley pan that is baffled. You do not need a baffled grommet also, the grommets never work anyway. The baffle needs to be built into either the valley pan or the valve cover.

yes I would recommend the ME Wagner, I have. No relations with them just use it and have recommended it to my hot rod friends who also love it.

get the Wagner valve and their Pontiac adapter. It will stick right down in the front valley pan and raise the PCV up a bit to access it easy.

a catch can goes in the system between the PCV and the intake manifold. So when the intake vacumn sucks on the PCV, concentrations of oily liquid crud drop into the can and are not sent back into your intake. Smaller concentrations are burned off in combustion.

the crankcase is a whirlwind or tornado of oil mist, yours is underroo much pressure and blowing out the sealdipstick etc. the Wagner is so efficient pulling a vac 99% percent of the time that it will suck out too much oil from the mist if not baffled. But you want that 99% of time at a small vacumn.

my catch can is mounted on the from of the passenger side head, some mount them on the firewall. Mine is a radium engineering can. They have a nice 8 oz universal can which is smaller that mine and would work. They are more expensive but great quality. Whatever if you get a catch can get one with a dipstick like the radium or a sight glass so you can see and monitor the oil consumption.

I will try to get some photos later today. Also peruse the ME Wagner website. They have lots of good info there. These things really help your engine run smooth.


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## Roqetman (Aug 31, 2015)

Sounds great, great information! Thank you!


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

HiVolts Roquetman and PJ;..My apologies for the delay, promised these photos a



































week ago,....


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

so there is some photos of ME Wagner valve, Radium catch can, Baffled CFR valve cover and valley pan PCV hole now used for oil fill..


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## Roqetman (Aug 31, 2015)

Ok, thanks for the pics! What is the black thing with blue connector shown above? Is that the oil filler?


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Yes, that is where the original VALLEY PAN PCV hole was on this valley pan. I could have plugged it but just used the ME Wagner Pontiac adapter which raises it up and put in a 45 degree elbow with a screw on cap the elbow is blue, the cap is black. Easy oil fill right to the crank.


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## Roqetman (Aug 31, 2015)

Thanks for the pics. Do you have any experience or opinion about the AirFlow Research 6732 PCV valves?


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Looks good, basically a dress up piece although it may have a stronger spring than the $5 PCV valves,..not near the technology and engineering of the ME Wagner....

I would not look for it to cure any crankcase pressure problems,.....but it is pretty

the Wagner is billet aluminum and looks good as well, but really makes your engine run better..

what is the saying,........Chrome won’t get you home....


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

Lemans guy said:


> Looks good, basically a dress up piece although it may have a stronger spring than the $5 PCV valves,..not near the technology and engineering of the ME Wagner....
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> I would not look for it to cure any crankcase pressure problems,.....but it is pretty
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Hi Lemans Guy, I always appreciate reading your posts and learning from them. In my Ignorance, I know I must be wrong but I have a fundamental question with the Wagner PCV you mentioned. In my mind, and I’m probably wrong, it’s kind of simple. I know for me that popping out my dipstick (slightly) happens when I’m at wide open throttle. Wide-open throttle is when the crank case develops the majority of the ugly pressure that gives me and others problems. I also know at wide-open throttle vacuum to the PCV is effectively zero. So my question is how does the Wagner valve help me pull crank case pressure when it’s at its worst, wot, when there’s no vacuum? I don’t care how good the valve is, it seems to me it wouldn’t matter there’s no vacuum to begin with. Again, I assume I’m wrong always learning. Thanks!


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

No you are correct, WOT has no vacumn, and high pressure,….and no PCV valve evacuates the crankcase without vacumn.

You do however get crankcase fumes and pressure relieved 99% of the time with the Wagner. At idle and at lighter vacumn like cruise it pulls a vacumn of 1 to 3 HG,…relieving a lot of blow by,corrosives, condensation and pressure.

If you wanted to relieve crankcase pressure at WOT a “Vacuum pump” not operated by manifold vacumn could do that. Racers, of which I am not one, could better advise you on such additions. They do come in various forms and some pull 8 to 10 HG. It may relieve the pressure but would pull a lot of oilvapors, for which you would need a catch can.

Suffice it to say if your dipstick pops up at WOT with a Wagner it will do it with all PCV’s. Most driving is not at WOT, so the PCV system works at all those other times. Street cars really are not driven most of the time at WOT.

I would probably not worry too much about the dipstick at WOT throttle if all my seals were not leaking and I had a good PCV system stock or Wagner.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

During periods of no or low vacuum the PCV is bypassed and the carburetor pulls the crankcase fumes through the valve cover to air cleaner vent pipe.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

Of course this only works with a closed system without breather caps and with a hose/pipe connecting the valve cover to the air cleaner


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Great point, 052 and that later closed system may be enough to relieve your dipstick problem. But the venting is different on the breather side. But another option for sure.


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

Thanks guys, I think we’re on the same page. For me personally, like I said my dipstick only comes out a half an inch or so after laying on it hard, otherwise does not. From a leak standpoint my new engine I found one or two minor spots around my new aluminum valley pan that over a period of many drives I can see a drop or two, so I’m not terribly worried. But what I will say is the valve and catch can look cool in your pictures! Would love to have an excuse to use them! 

I use a breather in each Valve cover, then standard pcv from the valley pan to the base of the carburetor. You can kinda see them here.


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

O52 said:


> During periods of no or low vacuum the PCV is bypassed and the carburetor pulls the crankcase fumes through the valve cover to air cleaner vent pipe.
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> View attachment 145432


thanks O52, but I have to say while I agree that air moves from the valve covers into the air cleaner due to crank case pressure during wot, I don’t think it’s actually being pulled, in theory there is no vacuum in an open air cleaner. I think that the factory plumbed the valve cover vent directly to the air cleaner so that the dirty crankcase air was not being sent into atmosphere (like mine is), but rather to be returned to the carburetor intake as an emission advantage, at low vacuum like wot. As always, that’s just my opinion, could be wrong. Thanks!


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

750 CFM is a lot of suction. Served the Chevy BB with the open air filter well.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

BTW I had dipstick issues with this engine too. The parts store PCV called out in their computer wasn't up to the task. I replaced it with an NOS PCV. No further problems.


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

Sweet engine! I’ll still say if you drilled an imaginary hole through the stainless top of your air cleaner, and put a vacuum gauge in it, you would read zero vacuum, even at wide open throttle. Frankly, if you did get vacuum, then you would have a performance improvement opportunity of putting on a better flowing air filter! 😀

Any who, thanks, interesting conversation!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

This story sounds familiar 😉 here's what I had to do to my breathers snd and the stick still pops sometimes. I just talked to my friend who has a turbocharged 9 second '66 Fairlane and he thought maybe the oil return galleys in the head might be blocked with returning oil and not letting the pressure escape on stock heads....what is the consensus of that theory?


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

Omg, I have the same breathers, and did the same thing! Well, I opened up the outside holes as much as I could, and Swiss cheesed the insides also! But I’ll tell you, blowing through it, it still feels restrictive! I’ve heard that some people replace the foam with steel wool, but can’t imagine the idea of steel wool metal getting sucked in! That’s great, thanks! Maybe I’ll drill mine out more! Anyone replace the foam with something less restrictive?


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

Ps, the galleys are really big, can’t imagine oil running down blocking them…. IMHO


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Ebartone said:


> Omg, I have the same breathers, and did the same thing! Well, I opened up the outside holes as much as I could, and Swiss cheesed the insides also! But I’ll tell you, blowing through it, it still feels restrictive! I’ve heard that some people replace the foam with steel wool, but can’t imagine the idea of steel wool metal getting sucked in! That’s great, thanks! Maybe I’ll drill mine out more! Anyone replace the foam with something less restrictive?


You don't want steel wool, per say. They have a stainless steel pot scrubbie which is what you want. This type was included with a catch can I purchased off Amazon. The stainless steel is spiral in shape and form. You can get them at most stores like Walmart or Dollar Tree.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Ebartone said:


> Thanks guys, I think we’re on the same page. For me personally, like I said my dipstick only comes out a half an inch or so after laying on it hard, otherwise does not. From a leak standpoint my new engine I found one or two minor spots around my new aluminum valley pan that over a period of many drives I can see a drop or two, so I’m not terribly worried. But what I will say is the valve and catch can look cool in your pictures! Would love to have an excuse to use them!
> 
> I use a breather in each Valve cover, then standard pcv from the valley pan to the base of the carburetor. You can kinda see them here.
> View attachment 145434



Another option that I recall was used more by the Mopar guys was this evacuation system. I recall seeing it added to an engine/car in one of the hot rod magazines. It pulled out the internal engine pressures via the exhaust system. This works as the exhaust flows more, like higher RPM's. The small steel tubes are welded behind the header flanges in the extension tubes. A hose connects the breathe caps on the valve cover and hooks to the small header pipes. A check valve is also used so back pressure won't go into the engine. As the high moving exhaust passes over/around the tubes, it creates a vacuum pulling out crankcase pressures. So this would take over where the PCV valve leaves off - no vacuum from the manifold.

From what I read, this may not work the best or be ideal when used with a full exhaust system as the full exhaust creates some back pressure and may not be as effective as open headers with no pipes allowing a faster, and unrestricted, flow of exhaust gases to run past the small pipes that create a vacuum and pulls down on engine pressure.

But if you had a good set of pipes/mufflers and a crossover pipe, it might work enough to do the job at higher RPM's.

Just an option someone might try. There are several makes on the market, but here is one by Moroso.









Moroso 25900 Moroso Crankcase Evacuation Systems | Summit Racing


Free Shipping - Moroso Crankcase Evacuation Systems with qualifying orders of $99. Shop Crankcase Evacuation Systems at Summit Racing.




www.summitracing.com


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

So I have 16 9/32" holes and the center hole is 3/4" then I sliced the foam in half so you have two doughnuts and glued it out the top of the breathers so the air pressure wouldn't push the foam over the holes and it still soaks up any oil.


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the feedback and the conversation. This time I really don’t have a huge issue, so I’m only going to play around with easy ideas like the breathers flow. I have to admit, a $1000 Maroso Evec pump set up looks pretty fun, unfortunately about $975 more than I have! Thanks all!


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

O52 said:


> 750 CFM is a lot of suction. Served the Chevy BB with the open air filter well.
> 
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> View attachment 145439
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 Are you running a PCV filter element in side the air cleaner? Like this?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Ebartone said:


> Thanks guys, I really appreciate the feedback and the conversation. This time I really don’t have a huge issue, so I’m only going to play around with easy ideas like the breathers flow. I have to admit, a $1000 Maroso Evec pump set up looks pretty fun, unfortunately about $975 more than I have! Thanks all!


I hope that is a typo! LOL $76.00 for the set-up.


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

No typo, I was thinking this:



https://butlerperformance.com/i-24452929-butler-performance-complete-moroso-evac-pump-kit-3-vane-pump-bpi-evac-mor3v.html?ref=category:1234768



For my 462 it would be pointless, unnecessary, and a waste of money! But man, if I could only win the lottery, it’d be on there! 😀


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

67ventwindow said:


> Are you running a PCV filter element in side the air cleaner? Like this?


Those are used on a closed element air cleaner. 

The Chevy open element air cleaner used a small flame arrestor screen that fit over the opening


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

The old Erson air cleaner had a knockout. on the lower angled section. So I put the fitting there. Only cause I was tired of cleaning chrome valve covers when the system reversed at WOT. An E-1 in the 80s didnt make much PAW catalog and later how to hot rod chevy big blocks was the extent of my auto knowledge library.


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

O52 said:


> BTW I had dipstick issues with this engine too. The parts store PCV called out in their computer wasn't up to the task. I replaced it with an NOS PCV. No further problems.
> 
> View attachment 145442


Thanks O52, you definitely have me curious. If you look at my original photo I have a $30 aftermarket shiny silver PCV that I figured the more money I spend the better it must be! How did you decide this particular one would be better than what you put in? I’m very willing to try something more standard like this, although preferably with 90°. Could you point me towards this part, or a 90° version? And again how did you know this would be better? Thanks!


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

I think the point I was trying to make and has been made before, is that the PCV manufacturers cannot be expected to keep making parts for 50+ year old cars so they consolidate different valves into one generic version. This approach probably works for the most applications since not everyone operates to Redline. 
Those of us with high performance or modified cars need to use what the factory recommended at the time or the Wagner valve to adjust PCV airflow for modified engines. 
For my stock El Camino SS 396, I was tipped off by a thread in the Chevelle forum. I did an Ebay search to locate an NOS valve which together with a repro air cleaner from Paragon Corvette solved my problem. 
For my GTO I was able to find a couple NOS AC valves for my HO spec'd engine. Engine is still on a stand waiting installation.

I included the Chevy diagram to indicate how Chevrolet managed to use a closed PCV system with the open style air cleaner.


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## 65GTOproject (10 mo ago)

HiVolts said:


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