# Think a Chevy engine swap is bad?



## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Saw a feature on the news last night about this guy doing "engine swaps" (actually motor swaps) on classic cars to keep them on the road in the 21st century. Was an interesting feature, but hate to imagine him doing GTO's. 

So, which would you rather see somebody desecrating a Pontiac with, a Chevy engine OR an Electic engine? (Maybe from a Tesla!!)

What do you all think?

http://www.zelectricmotors.com/


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

1968gto421 said:


> Saw a feature on the news last night about this guy doing "engine swaps" (actually motor swaps) on classic cars to keep them on the road in the 21st century. Was an interesting feature, but hate to imagine him doing GTO's. What do you all think?



Yes, very bad idea and the sorry ass way out of keeping a Pontiac engine. It's not like they don't make aftermarket Pontiac blocks or heads IF there never existed another factory Pontiac block on the planet.

Why not a Ford, a Mopar Hemi, Caddy, Olds, Buick, or a turbo-charged front wheeled drive engine/subframe fitted to the chassis?

So here is the real reason why many think Chevy is the way to go - aftermarket Pontiac cylinder heads and intakes are capable of making power far exceeding what the OEM blocks can handle or were ever designed for. So to get to the levels that these parts are capable of, you would want to go with an aftermarket block designed to handle, and take advantage of, what these parts can produce in HP/TQ. This cost dollars$$$. Used LS motors are often cheaply sourced through junkyards, just like any throw away Chevy small block. 

People will find ways to keep a "body" of their choice driveable no matter what the driveline, but why it always seems to be the Chevy push is beyond me. Eventually you will not see "classic cars" on the road much as interest in them will die off just as the generation who now enjoys them will die off. 

How many "original" cars from the 1920's, 1930's, and 1940's do you see at a car show? Very few. Most of them are modified whether it be the driveline, body, or interior. Very few have original engines and for good reason - try finding parts for a 1930 Frankin. BUT, if there was a big following of the Franklin, then aftermarket would produce most all the parts to keep it running into the 21st century to include engines. With our Pontiac's they do produce most all the parts needed to keep it running into the 21st century - to include several aftermarket block choices. So for anyone to blow smoke up your butt and tell you they are doing a Pontiac to Chevy swap so the car will continue to run into the 21st century is full of himself and flat out ignorant to Pontiac engines, or how to build/rebuild them, and only has the coin to buy a cheap junkyard Chevy.

In my opinion, the Oldsmobile is less desireable than the Pontiac and yet why don't we see all the Chevy swaps going into them? Hmmm, like aftermarket Pontiac, there is a new cast iron block which makes it no excuse to slip in a Chevy. I would re-engine my GTO with an Olds engine before stooping so low as to muck it up with a Chevy - https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/big-block-olds-lives-rocket-racings-killer-casting/


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## 11th Indian (Feb 15, 2018)

I saw some boutique place was converting old muscle cars to electric power. They certainly aint cheap. 
No thanks. 

To me, a GTO is defined by its Pontiac engine. I had my experience with LS engines, Turbo V6s and even early Wankel engines. They each have their place, but not between the fenders of GTO. (Not counting Holdens)


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

" Think a Chevy engine swap is bad? "


Yes. Very bad !!!


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## justoldal (Mar 3, 2019)

*Guess maybe I'm a purest*

New here at the forum, but been a Pontiac guy for years. Never understood why someone would swap a Chevy engine into a Pontiac, particularly a GTO. OK, back a couple of decades ago, not much "stuff" was available for Pontiac engines, but all that has changed. While it's true, it will cost more to put together a Pontiac engine, the end results are worth it. The bottom end torque of these motors are very street friendly. Yes high RPMs aren't their friend, unless the bottom end is modified, but keep them below 5800 or so and they will surprise a lot of people.:laugh2:


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

PontiacJim said:


> Yes, very bad idea and the sorry ass way out of keeping a Pontiac engine. It's not like they don't make aftermarket Pontiac blocks or heads IF there never existed another factory Pontiac block on the planet.
> 
> Why not a Ford, a Mopar Hemi, Caddy, Olds, Buick, or a turbo-charged front wheeled drive engine/subframe fitted to the chassis?
> 
> ...


This pretty much nails it. The only old cars that are consistently kept original that I know of that are plentiful are the Model T and Model A Fords, because virtually all parts are readily available. Not so much with your Franklin of Huppmobile. Chevrolet small blocks and LS engines are cheap and plentiful, and can make good power. For the uninformed and unexperienced, they seem like a logical solution. Funny how I've easily kept my antiquated Pontiac powered GTO's with points ignition and carburetors not only running in the 21st century, but running for the past 40 years. Simple maintenance assures that. The people I see going for different engines and extensive mods are people that have little or no actual 'wheel time' in one of these cars. A well maintained stock vintage Pontiac is a reliable, powerful, comfortable means of transportation. The trend of the future is in modified cars, though, and this can be seen in all makes. Many younger people can't believe an 'old car' can be reliable and usable as-is, and therefore, modify them with generic engine transplants, etc. I drive mine cross-country, and will continue to do so. Well into the 21st century, on Strato-Streak power!


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## Knuckledragger (Nov 25, 2011)

Going contrarian on you here. I put a big block Chevy in my red 65 hardtop along with a 12 bolt rear end back in the 1970s. Also a 400 series three speed transmission, but it was a Pontiac case with extra ears welded on to bolt up to the chevy engine. It was a simple case of economics. After changing Pontiac engines a few times and having only one high performance outlet for them (at budget breaking prices), it was an easy choice. I even have a hole drilled in the firewall to change out a head freeze plug, so I did not give up on Poncho engines quickly. Lots of HP for an inexpensive, bolt in swap. Started with an L88 427, went racing a few times (12.15/ 113mph 1/4 mile), sold it for a streetable 396 that I drove through college. Later, I built a 454 and installed 2.73 posi gears in it for a freeway flyer. My son got it out of storage in 2005 to drive to high school a couple of times and promised not to do burnouts in the parking lot. He did anyway, but managed not to do any body damage.

All of the posts bagging on Chevy engines (motors are electric) also point out that any power made is by after market Pontiac blocks and heads, so they are not really driving factory iron. I admire and respect anyone wiling to make the effort to restore one of these cars. I prefer to have an easily identifiable body wrapped around an easily updated drivetrain. 

Boo and Hiss at me all you like, but I have owned and driven this car since high school (1971), and have no plans to restore it. In fact, I will be making one change when getting ready to (finally) repaint it. I hated catching a sponge or cloth on the Pontiac emblem on the trunk *every time* I washed the car, so it is going. Maybe I will have an emblem painted on in its place, maybe not, but that is one piece of chrome I will not miss.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Thanks, all. I really wasn't trying to get thoughts on Chevy swaps. Heaven knows that rant has been done enugh.

I was trying to see what you all thought about people pulling out their Pontiac engine (or Chevy if they've done that) and CONVERTING THEIR GTO/LEMANS (OR CHEVELLE) TO TOTAL ELECTRIC POWER FOR THE 21ST CENTURY. Here is the link to to news story info that was on the news (forgot to include it in post #1 .

ZELECTRIC MOTORS

Sorry for not being clear.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Knuckledragger, I appreciate your post. My '65 GTO is a 'day two' car with lots of chrome and some mods under the hood from the 1970's....I'm not going to remove/restore that, either. Part of the history of the car. I've had mine about 10 years less than you have had yours. There's a gent on this forum (Alky GTO) who has a blown, alcohol fueled GTO and has had it for years. And we all love the car. As a side note, I hear you on that damn Arrow emblem on the trunk. That, and the Arrow emblem on the hood of my '67 has snagged MANY a rag and California Duster over the years...real PITA. Looking forward to driving the '67 down to the Bakersfield March Meet tomorrow!! Again, thanks for the post. As a hotrodder and a car guy, you are appreciated here.


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## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

geeteeohguy said:


> PontiacJim said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, very bad idea and the sorry ass way out of keeping a Pontiac engine. It's not like they don't make aftermarket Pontiac blocks or heads IF there never existed another factory Pontiac block on the planet.
> ...


Love Pontiac motors but to be fair it's crazy money compared to chevy on hp and torque . As far as olds snd Buick you can't beat their 455 if built correct . Back in early seventies I got whip by many. I sm dtill a purist but have no problem with snd LS swap with a t56 . BUT still love my 400 gto. Doug


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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

Converting classic cars to electric power is becoming a more reasonable idea every day, but potentially much more dangerous than most people imagine. There are a lot of things that can go wrong if the system isn't designed and built correctly. I guess the same is true for internal combustion engines though.....we are just more informed since we all grew up with these machines in our driveways.

I used to think that electric powered vehicles would be boring but then I bought one and found they are extremely interesting machines. I will even go so far as to say that it has re-ignited my enthusiasm for vehicles. In the end it comes down to the same things as before.....it's about how energy efficient the power plant is....the weight of the vehicle....and managing the heat produced. Some of the technology is amazing, especially the Power Split Device found on some PHEV vehicles. I am currently more interested in PHEV vs BEV since there still is an engine on board and the ICE is still more effective at higher speeds so if the manufacturers can figure out how to double the efficiency of the engine then PHEV will have a strong future in performance vehicles. The driver is a MAJOR component in these vehicles, especially with mild and plug in hybrid vehicles because there is a lot of interaction between the driver and the equipment. 

However, in reference to the original question for this thread..... 
The MOST important part of a muscle car is the power train so converting that to electric would be senseless in my opinion. Converting a Beetle or Mustang or old Cadillac etc would be fine since the power train isn't what makes those cars interesting....it's the body style and how the car is used that people enjoy so having it electrified would be fine. I checked out the link posted above and a LOT of stuff is overlooked in the simple electric conversion. It turns out that electric heaters consume FAR more kilowatts than Air Conditioners so things like heated seats in an electric car actually make a ton of sense. There is a bunch of tech that is involved with regeneration, battery conditioning, range maximization etc. The major manufacturers are making huge gains so fast that some 'new' models are already dated by the time they hit the sales room floors. I think these electric conversion kits for classic cars likely fall short in all these areas.....and that is the part that is the most 'fun' with electric vehicles so it's possible a lot will be lost with those conversions. One of our favorite features of our plug in hybrid is that is has the car ready for you when you need it. It knows when my wife will be leaving for work and it has the cabin warmed up with the windows defrosted so all she has to do is unplug it and drive away. If it's warm out then it will have the A/C running and the interior cooled down so you aren't dripping with sweat before you leave the driveway.

It's a very interesting time right now. In summer of 2018 was the turning point where Electric Vehicle sales growth began to double from the previous year while at the same time Internal Combustion Engine vehicles sales slipped compared to the previous year. So far that trend has continued into 2019 and it looks like it's going to remain that way for a while.

Just my $0.02.....
Happy Motoring!


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Thanks, Shake-N-Bake, this is the sort of response I was looking for, pro's and con's, etc. Thanks for a well written post.

Best of luck as you get closer to completion on "Voodoo II"!


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## 11th Indian (Feb 15, 2018)

These types of conversions have been around for quite some time. I find the demographic for electric conversions to be quite specific, and the total disregard for cost in order to prove a point seems a bit to West Coast for me. I consider performance Vs price Always to be part of the equation…… 

There is no doubt that electric cars are the future, however unlike other technologies the progress to affordability is slow. Though electric sales have been improving year to year, its hard to sort out the hybrids from the pure electrics, and sales are still fractional compared to ICE cars. One day you will be able to buy an electric car that can go 360 miles on one charge, have 10 year / 100k mile warranty and cost less than 35 grand, one day, but not this decade. But there are a few ICE cars that can meet that spec. for close to 10 grand less. And let’s not forget plugging in your electric is not free. 

There is always lots of chatter about the heretic swapping a Chevy engine into a Pontiac, and its usually cost driven. Today there are reasonably priced options for the Pontiac engine builder that were not available in the past at any price., that to me would invalidate the electric option.


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## integrity6987 (May 10, 2017)

justoldal said:


> New here at the forum, but been a Pontiac guy for years. Never understood why someone would swap a Chevy engine into a Pontiac, particularly a GTO. OK, back a couple of decades ago, not much "stuff" was available for Pontiac engines, but all that has changed. While it's true, it will cost more to put together a Pontiac engine, the end results are worth it. The bottom end torque of these motors are very street friendly. Yes high RPMs aren't their friend, unless the bottom end is modified, but keep them below 5800 or so and they will surprise a lot of people.:laugh2:


A little off topic - but I'd be terrified to rev mine (Stock) to 5800. 
I feel like I'm "pushing it" at 5000-5200.

Looking at dyno charts for stock 400s it doesn't make sense to "push it" in my opinion

https://www.gtoforum.com/f170/400-dyno-test-data-holley-q-jet-comparison-37080/#post304184


Throwing this question out there - what do you guys use as your "red-line"?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I used to shift when the valves floated...well over 6500 RPM. (389 and 400's) I was young, dumb, and very, very lucky. I found out that a Pontiac 428 will rev to 7000 rpm with stock cast pistons......ONCE. (broke 4 or 5 pistons) The Pontiac is an odd duck: has the torque of a big block but will wind up as fast as a small block. These days, I keep the revs down. Below 5000 rpm. These engines were designed to come on like gangbusters at 2000 RPM anyway. As for LS engines, electric engines, etc, you can do what you want, but I personally drive these old cars for the era-experience. Putting an LS in a '65 GTO is the same as putting a Hyabusa engine in a '47 Indian Chief. The Japanese modern motor is WAY better. But the end result is nothing like 1947. No thanks. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.


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