# judge Question



## kip (Dec 9, 2007)

Hi, I am new to the board and have more questions than I have answers. Did all of the 1969 judges come with ram air engines? Thanks kip.


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

kip said:


> Hi, I am new to the board and have more questions than I have answers. Did all of the 1969 judges come with ram air engines? Thanks kip.


Welcome to the forum,

The $337 Judge package included the 365 hp Ram Air III engine, the 370 hp Ram Air IV engine was an additional option to the Judge.

The RAIII used a Carter carburetor and the RAIV used a Rochester carburetor.


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## kip (Dec 9, 2007)

thanks, I have a driver 68 gto, and several 68, 69 parts cars. but i've came across what the owner says are 2 69 judges in a junkyard near home. The only judges I've seen are online, so I am very unprepared to deal with him for them. I have the vin numbers and are sending them off monday. I look forward to reading everyones post, because I realize I have alot to learn. thanks kip


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Welcome to the forums!!
GTO Alley is a good place for info and vin #, data plate # decoding.
GTO Alley!


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

KIP,
Since you are familiar with 69 GTOs, the Judge will have a spoiler and heavy duty torque rods to hold up the heavier trunk lid. The rally II wheels will not have trim rings.

The Judge option on the build sheet will be RPO 554, The Fremont plant used a UPC code of WT1.

PHS also offers a Fax Back service in which they will fax the info to you within a few days.

Good luck,


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## kip (Dec 9, 2007)

Thanks, again. these 2 cars are rough, one has the judge emblem on the glove box, the other dosen't. I know the first judges did not have these emblems but other things about this car worried me. I know this is not ebay, but he wants 5k apiece for the cars. IF they are judges is this reasonable? kip


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

Do these cars have engines or transmissions?


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## kip (Dec 9, 2007)

The one with the badge on the glove box is just a shell, it does still have the wing on the trunk. The other one has engine and auto trany in it, but he said the engine was not original. The only way I know one is a ram air is by looking at the breather! but i'm learning. kip


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

kip said:


> The one with the badge on the glove box is just a shell, it does still have the wing on the trunk. The other one has engine and auto trany in it, but he said the engine was not original. The only way I know one is a ram air is by looking at the breather! but i'm learning. kip


You will have a letter code on the front of the block that will let you know if the engine is a true RAIII or RAIV. 

RAIII is YZ for the automatic transmission, RAIV is XP for an automatic. On the back of the block will be a casting number of 9792506 or 9792968, both of these blocks were similar to the 428 and future 455 casting and include 4 bolt mains.


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## kip (Dec 9, 2007)

Were the RAIV always an option or did it come after the RAIII. kip


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

kip said:


> Were the RAIV always an option or did it come after the RAIII. kip


The best I can tell is the RAIV was an additional option of the Judge package, I have been told those HP numbers were under-rated and the actual HP was much higher.


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## The_Humbler (Nov 18, 2007)

RA-IV option could be had on any GTO or Firebird in 1969-1970.

The HP figures were acurate given the compression, cam, and CI used. Remember, those engines were measured on the dyno witgh no accessories hooked up. 

The RA-IV head program was actually designed for a larger ci motor and was mostly developed by Air Flow Research.


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## lars (Sep 28, 2004)

05GTO said:


> The RAIII used a Carter carburetor and the RAIV used a Rochester carburetor.


Randy -
The RAIII and the RAIV both used Q-Jet carbs, and all Q-Jets are Rochesters. Some Q-Jets were manufactured by Carter under license from Rochester in order to meet production demands, but no specific model/applications were built by Carter. For practical purposes, all Q-Jet carbs are Rochesters.



kip said:


> Were the RAIV always an option or did it come after the RAIII. kip


Ram Air III's and Ram Air IV's were available side-by-side in 1969 and 1971. Both engines were available as options in the GTO. The RAIII was the standard Judge engine in 69 and 70. The RAIV was optional on all GTO models, including Judge, in 69 and 70. The RAIV was never offered as a base, standard engine in any car.


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

lars said:


> Randy -
> The RAIII and the RAIV both used Q-Jet carbs, and all Q-Jets are Rochesters. Some Q-Jets were manufactured by Carter under license from Rochester in order to meet production demands, but no specific model/applications were built by Carter. For practical purposes, all Q-Jet carbs are Rochesters.


Hey Lars, 

You told me once not to believe everything on the Internet, thanks for clearing that up and good to see ya,

source, Pontiac GTO Judge Ram Air III - Ultimatecarpage.com - Images, Specifications and Information



> First offered as a performance version of the Pontiac Le Mans in 1964, the GTO quickly became a separate model. The model was immediate hit and the 1965 model was named 'Motor Trend Car of the Year'. Over the next few years, the GTO was further developed to keep up with the 'muscle car race' in North America. The changes included a larger engine and revised fastback type bodystyle. It appeared in various TV shows and commercials, most notably the 'Monkee's Show'.
> 
> For the 1969 model year, two new engines were introduced, the Ram-Air III and IV, producing 365 and 370 bhp respectively. The main difference between the two, was the use of a Carter or Rochester carburetor. Also added to the line-up was the 'Judge' model, named after the 'Here come da' Judge' expression from the 'Laugh-in' TV-show. The package included a striking set of decals and the easily recognizable 'Caroussel Red' orange paint.
> 
> ...


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## The_Humbler (Nov 18, 2007)

Not the most accurate article, but the numbers and options are correct.


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