# still need some ideas (help)



## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

well i've been weeks trying to fix my goat, still cant get her to run right. 
i have a 65 gto with a 67 400 with a turbo 400 tranny, pretty much stock no big cam or anything.
its got a holley 750 single pumper with vacum secondaires, its new, i have put a new timing chain and gears, HEI dist, wires, plugs, new water pump, belts, hoses, alternator, power steering pump, see where im going? ive done most all there is to do and it starts very easy, idles great then soon as you put some gas to it it falls on its face stumbles and barely runs.
i even put a new accel ignition module on it today thinking that was it, nope.
timing is good, but the light kind of skips when aimed at the timing mark, leading me to think its electric problem.
any and all ideas are appreciated, i will try and answer questions if i know the answers.
thanks guys


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

one more thing i also ran a power wire from battery side of dist direct to pos side of battery to bypass the ignition switch if that was it, made no difference.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Probably need more info like how it drives if it does and maybe a video, could be a lot of things...lean, rich, vacuum leaks, vacuum advance, fuel delivery, history of events....if it idles smooth doubt it's electrical but I'm no expert that's for sure just getting the ball rolling.


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

well it had been running a little rich, but the carbs been adjusted seems a lot better, ran a vacuum gauge on it, has 19lbs , cant hear any leaks. no vacuum advance on it, it has the right springs on it for no vacuum advance so said the mechanic that put in the HEI dist. as for fule, it has a new pump, just a standard mechanical pump nothing fancy. 
as for history its never been able to get a lot of rpm's really, it used to go to appx 3500 rpm then crap out, now it doesnt even make it that high. sure thought the timing chain would fix the whole problem, but no.


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

What is your timing set at idle ?


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

idk , this timing cover has only a pointer no numbers


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

I think the pointer timing covers were 64-65. At any rate the Harmonic damper should be marked if you have a pointer. Pictures do help to see what type of timer cover it is.


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## chrisn (2 mo ago)

first thing id check is the fuel level in the float bowls, then check hi rpm delivery i propane long ago i took a propane torch tip and removed the tip from it so i can put a hose on it then i can use propane to richen the mixture quick and easy test to tell you if you need to richen the idle mixture or jetting or finding vacc leaks without spraying carb cleaner all over a freshly painted restored engine , if it likes the additional fuel above 3500 rpm the bog will go away then you look into delivery id inspect the fuel lines and drop the tank and check the strainer 50 years will do strange things to them


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

I take it Timing was set by ear , because of lack of numbers? Who did the timing? The mechanic? Hey fellas, wondering if it isn't another valve adjustment virus case.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Think we need more info, if the timing is off I don’t think it would start and idle good, then he accelerates and it falls on its face...sounds like a carb or fuel delivery issue but than does it recover?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

redhotgto66 said:


> well it had been running a little rich, but the carbs been adjusted seems a lot better, ran a vacuum gauge on it, has 19lbs , cant hear any leaks. no vacuum advance on it, it has the right springs on it for no vacuum advance so said the mechanic that put in the HEI dist. as for fule, it has a new pump, just a standard mechanical pump nothing fancy.
> as for history its never been able to get a lot of rpm's really, it used to go to appx 3500 rpm then crap out, now it doesnt even make it that high. sure thought the timing chain would fix the whole problem, but no.


You NEED vacuum advance for the street!!!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

BTW, some ignition setups will cause erratic behavior in a timing light.


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

well it appears to be getting enough fuel, the timing mark is just to the left of the mark maybe 1/4'' 
no it does not recover, this thing just flat out does not run well with the pedal pressed at all.
what is this valve adjustment virus? maybe need to adjust valves ? i can try and post a pic of the engine or a video, let me work on that, thanks again guys


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

one more thing, yes i pulled the sending unit from the tank, it looks like new, no junk in the tank


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

redhotgto66 said:


> what is this valve adjustment virus?


In typical fashion, the youth of the world has scurried to the internet... hoping to find some magical way to adjust valves, quickly, easily, and cleanly. The internet has responded!!!

Hundreds of backyard mechanics, hoping to be the next viral youtube sensation, have answered the call, with... "How to adjust you valves cold/ engine not running". The problem is, unless you fully understand engines and valves, and even if you do, it's a shitty way to do it.

Yes, you can adjust valves cold, but even if you do it perfectly, any new components in that system (rockers, pushrods, lifters) will all polish and wear in, requiring a readjustment soon afterward.

So... for some reason, guys don't want to just do it right, the first time, and when adjusting them cold, the lifters bleed down, causing nearly everyone to over tighten the valve, so it never fully closes... causing vacuum issues and performance woes. It comes up a LOT in here.

Yes, it sucks to pull the valve covers, ruin gaskets, and make an oily mess... but it's what it takes to set up an engine. So people need to rip off the bandaid and just check/ adjust them, when they're suspect.

We'd all love to believe that a simple turn of the mixture screw will magically fix science, but unfortunately, it won't.

I can't say that's your issue... and if you have 19hg of vacuum, it's probably not... but it does need to be verified. Sooner than later


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## 66COUPE (Jul 23, 2021)

redhotgto66 said:


> one more thing, yes i pulled the sending unit from the tank, it looks like new, no junk in the tank


And your fuel lines are new? I did almost everything you did and didn’t fix it. It was a small cracked fuel line right off the sending unit where it bends.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> In typical fashion, the youth of the world has scurried to the internet... hoping to find some magical way to adjust valves, quickly, easily, and cleanly. The internet has responded!!!
> 
> Hundreds of backyard mechanics, hoping to be the next viral youtube sensation, have answered the call, with... "How to adjust you valves cold/ engine not running". The problem is, unless you fully understand engines and valves, and even if you do, it's a shitty way to do it.
> 
> ...


It doesn't sound like valves but I'm not any kind of an expert.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Sounds to me like you've been going to a lot of effort to avoid verifying your timing, and that's the most likely cause of your problems. Yes, it takes time and effort to do, but if your timing isn't right, nothing else you try is going to work no matter how much money you throw at it changing out other parts. Even if that's not the problem, it's still something that you need to make sure of it being right before you move on to anything else. In fact, reading about all the other things you've tried that haven't made a difference, there's not much else left on the table in terms of a possible cause.

Two steps:
1) Verify that the markings on your balancer and timing cover are properly indicating were TDC is.
FAQ - Engine Building: Verifying Balancer TDC markings...
(If the markings are off, examine your balancer to see if the outer ring is "loose" or may have slipped. If so, then it must be replaced. Do not pass GO, do not collect $200)
2) Set your timing. Factory specs for initial timing is usually 6-degrees BTDC. That's ok for a starting point but the better way to do it is at an RPM where all if the mechanical advance is "in". Use the search tool to find other posts here about how to do that. It has been talked about many times.

Once you know for certain that your timing is right, if your problem remains, then we can move on to other things.

Cheers,
Bear


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Agree with Baer on timing. Get a piston stop and a balancer tape then you'll know for sure where TDC is. Both pretty cheap to get you an accurate timing mark. Not too many things that keep your car from getting up and going, now getting everything dialed in...that's another story.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Forgive me for maybe a stupid question but I always like to learn.....if the timing is the issue why would it start good and idle fine ?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

BearGFR said:


> Sounds to me like you've been going to a lot of effort to avoid verifying your timing


That's how I feel about the valves, when they come up. It's really so much easier to check this stuff, than it is to guess, worry, and throw money at it.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> Forgive me for maybe a stupid question


My car started good and idled fine, with the wrong firing order! It was only when you hit the gas that it went to poo.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Baaad65 said:


> Forgive me for maybe a stupid question but I always like to learn.....if the timing is the issue why would it start good and idle fine ?


I tend to agree with you but....it's just an unknown at this point and would be best, easy and cheap to get that unknown out the equation, or might tell us something else. We don't know what his timing is set on. You and I could probably set it close by ear but eventually he will need to know. Then on to the next step.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

It still would be nice to have the history...is this a new motor, did you inherit it this way, how long has this been happening??? And a video of the problem maybe down the carb.


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

this is not a new engine rebuild, i have been fighting the low rpm's for a year now, thought i fixed it when i put in a new timing chain. i will get the timing mark sticker put on the pulley and time it correctly if it will help, cant think it will cause it hasnt changed no matter where i put the timing at, but hey im willing to try. as for a engine pic i cant figure out how to post a pic or video to this site, old and stupid sorry.
thx


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

redhotgto66 said:


> this is not a new engine rebuild, i have been fighting the low rpm's for a year now, thought i fixed it when i put in a new timing chain. i will get the timing mark sticker put on the pulley and time it correctly if it will help, cant think it will cause it hasnt changed no matter where i put the timing at, but hey im willing to try. as for a engine pic i cant figure out how to post a pic or video to this site, old and stupid sorry.
> thx


I had the same problem, you have to load it onto Youtube then copy and paste the link here.


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

yea that sounds easy


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

If you moved it around and nothing changed, maybe it's time to look under the valve covers and see if there's nothing fishy going on under there. If nothing jumps out like a rocker arm completely loose or something else. Then you might want to adjust them or torque them, depending on if you have the original style or after market style. Still would be good to know where your timing is at and to set your total timing when you figure out what's holding it back. 

Have you looked under the valve covers at all in your attempt to get it running right?


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## chrisn (2 mo ago)

you need a advance timing lite id start at 30 degrees at say 2800 rpm drive and go from there . set the lite to 30 degrees and run idle up to 2800 centrifical advance should be full in by then the timing mark should match up to the pointer adjust timing till it lines up 2800 rpm and 30 degrees in the gun


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

no i havent looked under the covers, no idea whats going on there, thats why im doing this for more ideas, thanks.
keep in mind I AM NOT A MECHANIC, so any easy ideas are great, keep it simple LOL.
i did re-install the vacuum advance tonite and it would barely start and would not idle after putting it in . hmmmmm
5 minutes before that it idled just fine, no issues running, that is until you step on the gas, instant crap running.
keep it coming maybe i'll hit on somethin


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

chrisn said:


> you need a advance timing lite id start at 30 degrees at say 2800 rpm drive and go from there . set the lite to 30 degrees and run idle up to 2800 centrifical advance should be full in by then the timing mark should match up to the pointer adjust timing till it lines up 2800 rpm and 30 degrees in the gun
> View attachment 159683


if i could get to 2800 rpm i prolly wouldnt have this problem


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

redhotgto66 said:


> no i havent looked under the covers, no idea whats going on there, thats why im doing this for more ideas, thanks.
> keep in mind I AM NOT A MECHANIC, so any easy ideas are great, keep it simple LOL.
> i did re-install the vacuum advance tonite and it would barely start and would not idle after putting it in . hmmmmm
> 5 minutes before that it idled just fine, no issues running, that is until you step on the gas, instant crap running.
> keep it coming maybe i'll hit on somethin


That's weird because the vacuum can should pull in and advance the timing increasing the idle unless something is wrong in the distributor. How about vacuum leaks have you checked for that? Have you put a vacuum gauge on it while idling? I can't remember have you tried adjusting the mixture screws? A good dial back timing light would be a good idea but I think there's a bigger problem besides mechanical advance right now unless the springs are gone or the weights are stuck. Again a video would help everyone diagnose this and a look under the valve covers and inside the distributor too.


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

it has 19lbs vacuum, i have adjusted the carb many times trying to make it different, to no avail.
as for the weights, they are not stuck and the springs are fine. i tried to post a video, still not smart enough to do it


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I assume you're using a smart phone, when you have the video that you took tap the share icon then there should be a YouTube icon, tap that and it should down load it then when you can watch it on YouTube there should be three vertical dots next to the video, tap that and pick the share icon then there should be a icon that says copy link, tap it then go back to the goat site and in your post tap the links icon (two chain links get it) to rectangles appear, hold your thumb on the top one until it says paste then tap paste the link will appear then tap insert and it should be there then tap post. Hopefully I got that right 😄


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## chrisn (2 mo ago)

back in the day when we were young a dumb wed crank the dizy till it spark knocked under load the backed it off till the knock went away you will eliminate timing as the problem by putting a lot of advance in it it will back fire out the carb if you go to far and be hard cranking during hot start if advanced to much its not like your going to hurt it ,


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

redhotgto66 said:


> no i havent looked under the covers, no idea whats going on there, thats why im doing this for more ideas, thanks.
> keep in mind I AM NOT A MECHANIC, so any easy ideas are great, keep it simple LOL.
> i did re-install the vacuum advance tonite and it would barely start and would not idle after putting it in . hmmmmm
> 5 minutes before that it idled just fine, no issues running, that is until you step on the gas, instant crap running.
> keep it coming maybe i'll hit on somethin


If you have the stock rockers under your valve covers then you torque them down with the engine off. If they have poly locks on the rockers, you let the car warm up and while running you loosen one at a time until it chatters, then tightened slowly until it stops clattering the tighten. 
1/2 turn more. Pretty easy. You can look up valve adjustments while running on youtube.
The valve adjustment virus I mentioned earlier in the post was in reference to a couple members here lately having similar issues to yours. Lack of power, one member his rocker arms had come loose and chewed up his pushrods. He replaced them; adjusted his valves, changed oil several times and all seemed well. 
The other lacked power and adjusted his valves and his car is running much better. Saying all that it would be worth a shot to look under there. I don't know why I am thinking it may have something with your distributor as well.
Cap, firing order something under there. Did you replace the cap? It's hei or points ditributor?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

chrisn said:


> you need a advance timing lite id start at 30 degrees at say 2800 rpm drive and go from there . set the lite to 30 degrees and run idle up to 2800 centrifical advance should be full in by then the timing mark should match up to the pointer adjust timing till it lines up 2800 rpm and 30 degrees in the gun
> View attachment 159683


Two things to note:

If he doesnt have a vacuum advance canister, then there's no point messing much with the timing. Yes, a solid base timing is critical, but without vacuum advance, his dizzy and curve are only ever going to work WOT. As it sits, he's losing at least ten degrees of critical advance at idle.
Be careful what timing light you use, because if you have or are getting a radical ignition with multiple spark, a digital timing light is often useless. You need to at the least use a divorced power supply.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

redhotgto66 said:


> no i havent looked under the covers, no idea whats going on there, thats why im doing this for more ideas, thanks.
> keep in mind I AM NOT A MECHANIC, so any easy ideas are great, keep it simple LOL.
> i did re-install the vacuum advance tonite and it would barely start and would not idle after putting it in . hmmmmm
> 5 minutes before that it idled just fine, no issues running, that is until you step on the gas, instant crap running.
> keep it coming maybe i'll hit on somethin


I didnt realize you hooked it back up.

This is VERY telling. Every car should run BETTER with vac advance connected at idle. It should smooth it out. If you're running worse, then you're probably too advanced. It could be (seen it a few times) that your wires are on wrong or your rotor is in a tooth off. In this instance, depending on which way the error is, you have to advance or retard your timing so far to run, but its actually in the wrong direction. 

This would explain why you're not seeing your timing mark at idle and why vac advance would make it worse.

If you want, PM me your number and Ill call you later to help you sort it out and teach you how to post video.


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

thanks again for ideas, i didnt touch it last night so no new results, it may be the weekend before i get back out there. the main reason for taking off the vacuum advance was that it hit the firewall while setting the timing (by ear)
my nephew who builds all kinds of engines had this dist on his test stand for a while and it was always perfect, ran each engine great. he said he runs engines without advance all the time just has weaker springs like this ones got.
i am going to look at the rockers this weekend and watch them work, (take out plugs and make sure all are opening and closing while cranking) to make sure cam is not a flat lobe. 
thanks again for help


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

RMTZ67 said:


> If you have the stock rockers under your valve covers then you torque them down with the engine off. If they have poly locks on the rockers, you let the car warm up and while running you loosen one at a time until it chatters, then tightened slowly until it stops clattering the tighten.
> 1/2 turn more. Pretty easy. You can look up valve adjustments while running on youtube.
> The valve adjustment virus I mentioned earlier in the post was in reference to a couple members here lately having similar issues to yours. Lack of power, one member his rocker arms had come loose and chewed up his pushrods. He replaced them; adjusted his valves, changed oil several times and all seemed well.
> The other lacked power and adjusted his valves and his car is running much better. Saying all that it would be worth a shot to look under there. I don't know why I am thinking it may have something with your distributor as well.
> Cap, firing order something under there. Did you replace the cap? It's hei or points ditributor?


it is HEI and i didnt replace the cap or rotor, but they came off a running engine, it is like new.
note that this problem exsisted before installing the HEI, took off the points dist to try and fix this issue to no avail.


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

Baaad65 said:


> I assume you're using a smart phone, when you have the video that you took tap the share icon then there should be a YouTube icon, tap that and it should down load it then when you can watch it on YouTube there should be three vertical dots next to the video, tap that and pick the share icon then there should be a icon that says copy link, tap it then go back to the goat site and in your post tap the links icon (two chain links get it) to rectangles appear, hold your thumb on the top one until it says paste then tap paste the link will appear then tap insert and it should be there then tap post. Hopefully I got that right 😄


how bout you send me your phone number and i send you this video? could you do that?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

redhotgto66 said:


> the main reason for taking off the vacuum advance was that it hit the firewall while setting the timing (by ear)


Again... this is very telling!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

redhotgto66 said:


> he said he runs engines without advance all the time


Yes, and not to sound like a wise ass, but West Coast and Orange County Choppers, all became movie stars by welding without helmets on. They'll all have cataracts by age 50.

Whether it be pouring gas directly into a carb, smoking while refueling, or working on an engine without first disconnecting the battery... just because it can be done, doesnt mean it should.

No disrespect to your nephew, but a race engine runs wide open and has no vacuum, which is why race dizzy's have no vac advance. A race dizzy (or any dizzy without vac advance) is meant to run all-in, all the time.

My cam and heads love timing. My base timing is over 16 degrees and then my vac advance adds another 10 to that! So my car idles at 26 degrees... which is perfect for a cool, smooth idle with a big cam.

When I nail the gas, that vac advance disappears and the centrifugal takes over.

Can you run an engine without vac advance? Of course... all day, every day. Is it good for the street? Hell no!!! 

All this being said... if your car cant handle a vac advance, then it means that you have too much advance already, which certainly explains all of your problems!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

redhotgto66 said:


> it is HEI and i didnt replace the cap or rotor, but they came off a running engine, it is like new.
> note that this problem exsisted before installing the HEI, took off the points dist to try and fix this issue to no avail.


All of this dizzy swapping is likely where your issue lies.


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## chrisn (2 mo ago)

first off if the advance is hitting the firewall the dist is out of position, restablish tdc and reset distributor and plugwires sounds like dist is way out of position


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

My 461 didn't come with a vac advance when I got it and ran ok but hot so on the advice of the experts here I got one and set it up with a limiter, you need one on the street. And you can put the distributor in just about anywhere as long as you get the rotor pointed at # 1 at TDC.


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

yup and thats exactly where my dist is sitting, just like the pic above, checked the firing order at least 3 times, even cleaned the plugs after finding them a little sooty. armyadarkness i sent you my number text me when you get a sec and i will send you the video of it running, maybe you can see something.
as for being a smartass about my nephew and his engine knowledge, aint no big deal i am all for different ideas just want to fix this darn thing ! lol


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

redhotgto66 said:


> how bout you send me your phone number and i send you this video? could you do that?


Idk if a long video will text it usually trims it pretty short, maybe an email and I know enough about that stuff just to be dangerous...I can PM you my info if you want or some computer experts here can help.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

redhotgto66 said:


> well i've been weeks trying to fix my goat, still cant get her to run right.
> i have a 65 gto with a 67 400 with a turbo 400 tranny, pretty much stock no big cam or anything.
> its got a holley 750 single pumper with vacum secondaires, its new, i have put a new timing chain and gears, HEI dist, wires, plugs, new water pump, belts, hoses, alternator, power steering pump, see where im going? ive done most all there is to do and it starts very easy, idles great then soon as you put some gas to it it falls on its face stumbles and barely runs.
> i even put a new accel ignition module on it today thinking that was it, nope.
> ...


I would begin fresh at this point. Forget what your friend says or what you know from the past. Start from the beginning or you will never solve the issue. Could be a real problem or simply a bad wire, but you have to go through the process to eliminate what it is or is not.

Start with confirming that the No. 1 cyl when at TDC puts your mark on the harmonic damper at "0" on your timing cover scale. USE a TDC tool or means to confirm this, DO NOT GUESS and assume it's close. Pull the valve cover on the No 1 side so you can watch the rocker arms - both valves will be closed at TDC. All too often the original balancer outer ring has slipped giving false timing alignment when using a timing gun. SOME, not all, timing guns don't work with electronic ignitions and can be erratic or flat out incorrect when timing the engine. Make sure your timing gun will work with electronic ignitions and that it is a good gun to begin with - test it on another vehicle.

You installed a new chain & gears and if you had the multiple Keyway crank gear (?) it is very easy to misalign the gear as some of the marks on the gear can be confusing. If just a standard set-up, in today's world, things may be new but not correct. If you did not time the cam with a degree wheel, you would not know this. So if the gears were not installed correctly or the gears not machined correctly, your cam is not positioned to match the firing of the pistons.

The cam should have a built-in 4-degrees of advance. Some get confused on this and think they need to advance the cam 4-degrees at the crank gear or use an offset keyway. If you already have a cam with 4-degrees advance built in and then think you had to advance the cam 4-degrees and did so, you now have a cam advanced 8 degrees and it isn't going to run correctly. Is that what might have happened? This is why you want to confirm cam timing with the degree wheel.

IF the above all checks out, then next step is to have all plugs removed, battery fully charged and on a charger, and take a compression check of every cylinder. No plugs will allow the engine to really spin over fast to get a good reading. Write down your numbers. Now go back and squirt light oil, like Marvel Mystery Oil into each cylinder to help seal the rings. Squirt a shot or 2 of oil high up towards the back of the piston (camshaft side) so the oil will run down and over the rings. Then go back and do another compression reading and compare your numbers. Numbers should be consistent and will go up somewhat when the oil has been introduced to the cylinders on the second test. This will provide info on the cylinder sealing of the rings and valves should you have any numbers grossly off.

Provide your info to us and then we will go from there.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

He swapped his timing chain and gears, dot-to-dot, then dropped in the dizzy at "One". That's his issue. He's out 180 degrees. 

He needs to pull the dizzy cap and turn the rotor 180 degrees.

When gears are loaded dot-to-dot, the dizzy needs to go in pointing at #6.

This is why "back to basics" matters.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> I would begin fresh at this point. Forget what your friend says or what you know from the past. Start from the beginning or you will never solve the issue. Could be a real problem or simply a bad wire, but you have to go through the process to eliminate what it is or is not.
> 
> Start with confirming that the No. 1 cyl when at TDC puts your mark on the harmonic damper at "0" on your timing cover scale. USE a TDC tool or means to confirm this, DO NOT GUESS and assume it's close. Pull the valve cover on the No 1 side so you can watch the rocker arms - both valves will be closed at TDC. All too often the original balancer outer ring has slipped giving false timing alignment when using a timing gun. SOME, not all, timing guns don't work with electronic ignitions and can be erratic or flat out incorrect when timing the engine. Make sure your timing gun will work with electronic ignitions and that it is a good gun to begin with - test it on another vehicle.
> 
> ...


I just got off the phone with him. He's out 180


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> I just got off the phone with him. He's out 180



If he's out 180, I am surprised it would even run. Had that experience and the engine would not run, but pop and sputter and act like it wanted to run.

The early Dot-to-Dot timing alignment was different on the pre-1967 389 engines BUT you would still find that alignment in many books - like the Chilton's books. That's what I did and the engine never ran again BECAUSE I did not have enough knowledge to know to spin the rotor 180 degrees to compensate for the earlier Dot-to-Dot alignment. Junked a good running GTO because of Chilton's, dammit. Could not afford another junkyard engine back then. LOL

Let's see.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> Forgive me for maybe a stupid question but I always like to learn.....if the timing is the issue why would it start good and idle fine ?


To perfectly answer this question... YES! He's now out 180 degrees, car starts and runs, but any attempt at opening the throttle or adding advance, ends in a craptastic fart fest. That's why when I read his earlier posting, I said "it was telling".

He's on his 2nd dizzy and 3rd carb, and this is why throwing money at a car is no substitute for science.

We've all been there, and Lord knows Im guilty of it myself. Deep breaths and cautiously, methodically proceeding, rules the day.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> If he's out 180, I am surprised it would even run. Had that experience and the engine would not run, but pop and sputter and act like it wanted to run.
> 
> Let's see.


I only know because mine did! lol


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Of course, that's "at least" his biggest issue... who knows if there are more.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> To perfectly answer this question... YES! He's now out 180 degrees, car starts and runs, but any attempt at opening the throttle or adding advance, ends in a craptastic fart fest. That's why when I read his earlier posting, I said "it was telling".
> 
> He's on his 2nd dizzy and 3rd carb, and this is why throwing money at a car is no substitute for science.
> 
> We've all been there, and Lord knows Im guilty of it myself. Deep breaths and cautiously, methodically proceeding, rules the day.


Ah, got it professor 😉


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

thanks sooooooo much for taking time out of your day to help me army, we'll know tonite, i will try this before poker
(weds nite is poker nite) if it works you can prolly hear me sceraming from kansas !


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

redhotgto66 said:


> thanks sooooooo much for taking time out of your day to help me army, we'll know tonite, i will try this before poker
> (weds nite is poker nite) if it works you can prolly hear me sceraming from kansas !


As I mentioned above... if you installed dot-to-dot and set to #1, your timing _is_ out 180. I cant say if there are any other issues.

As for your lack of performance, when the car did run right, a 600 cfm carb on a Pontiac, _will_ do that every time!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

redhotgto66 said:


> thanks sooooooo much for taking time out of your day to help me army, we'll know tonite, i will try this before poker
> (weds nite is poker nite) if it works you can prolly hear me sceraming from kansas !


Don't feel bad he doesn't work he sits on here helping people and looks for hookers 🤣


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> he sits on here helping people and looks for hookers


And God help you all the day that I find some!


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

armyadarkness said:


> Again... this is very telling!


Ha ha, I was leaning that way, just waiting for your response.👏


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> If he's out 180, I am surprised it would even run.


He mentions above that he "set the timing by ear, and the vac can hit the fire wall", so yeah... if you set the dizzy 180 out and then turn it until it starts, I guess you find the sweet spot! lol


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## Tlporter (6 mo ago)

redhotgto66 said:


> well it had been running a little rich, but the carbs been adjusted seems a lot better, ran a vacuum gauge on it, has 19lbs , cant hear any leaks. no vacuum advance on it, it has the right springs on it for no vacuum advance so said the mechanic that put in the HEI dist. as for fule, it has a new pump, just a standard mechanical pump nothing fancy.
> as for history its never been able to get a lot of rpm's really, it used to go to appx 3500 rpm then crap out, now it doesnt even make it that high. sure thought the timing chain would fix the whole problem, but no.


Sounds like a fuel restriction


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## oldgoat64 (Jun 26, 2014)

armyadarkness said:


> He mentions above that he "set the timing by ear, and the vac can hit the fire wall", so yeah... if you set the dizzy 180 out and then turn it until it starts, I guess you find the sweet spot! lol





Baaad65 said:


> My 461 didn't come with a vac advance when I got it and ran ok but hot so on the advice of the experts here I got one and set it up with a limiter, you need one on the street. And you can put the distributor in just about anywhere as long as you get the rotor pointed at # 1 at TDC.


You can't put it anywhere if the vacuum advance hits the firewall.


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## oldgoat64 (Jun 26, 2014)

armyadarkness said:


> And God help you all the day that I find some!


Hookers or people that actually listen to the help you give?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

oldgoat64 said:


> You can't put it anywhere if the vacuum advance hits the firewall.


Correct, that's why I said "just about" 👍


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## Rockinindian (Aug 5, 2021)

redhotgto66 said:


> one more thing i also ran a power wire from battery side of dist direct to pos side of battery to bypass the ignition switch if that was it, made no difference.


First off a 750cfm is too big for a stock motor unless you rejetted it. Check your plugs to see if their black charcoal covered around the base where the porcelain and electrode is , if so your plugs are not putting out enough spark to handle the fuel being thrown into the cylinders. Then with not running look down the throat of the carb open in to make sure there’s a steady stream of fuel squirtinting from the accelerator pump. If not that’s a problem . Also if the pumper has an adjustment on the cam that makes the pump squirt it maybe too rich that also causes stumble but rarely too rich accelerator pump. Also if your timing is retarded too much can cause it to big extremely but being that retarded will also hamper power at all rpm. Make sure you dust vacuum is ported(vacuum only off idle and higher rpm) not manifold vac (when it applies vacuum at an idle) 
Those are a few things but 90% it will be The carb causing it. Starvation of fuel off idle into acceleration without a working accelerator pump can almost kill the motor starving it as well as make it pop back through the carb, you should run a 600cfm w/vac secondary on a stock motor . Your problem is an easy fix just nailing it down 


redhotgto66 said:


> well i've been weeks trying to fix my goat, still cant get her to run right.
> i have a 65 gto with a 67 400 with a turbo 400 tranny, pretty much stock no big cam or anything.
> its got a holley 750 single pumper with vacum secondaires, its new, i have put a new timing chain and gears, HEI dist, wires, plugs, new water pump, belts, hoses, alternator, power steering pump, see where im going? ive done most all there is to do and it starts very easy, idles great then soon as you put some gas to it it falls on its face stumbles and barely runs.
> i even put a new accel ignition module on it today thinking that was it, nope.
> ...


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## 68 Teapot (Aug 7, 2021)

Rockinindian said:


> First off a 750cfm is too big for a stock motor unless you rejetted it. Check your plugs to see if their black charcoal covered around the base where the porcelain and electrode is , if so your plugs are not putting out enough spark to handle the fuel being thrown into the cylinders. Then with not running look down the throat of the carb open in to make sure there’s a steady stream of fuel squirtinting from the accelerator pump





Rockinindian said:


> First off a 750cfm is too big for a stock motor unless you rejetted it. Check your plugs to see if their black charcoal covered around the base where the porcelain and electrode is , if so your plugs are not putting out enough spark to handle the fuel being thrown into the cylinders. Then with not running look down the throat of the carb open in to make sure there’s a steady stream of fuel squirtinting from the accelerator pump


 Frankly I can't see a 750 Holley being too "big" when a 750 Q-jet is not. I would check float level. Next look for an exhaust restriction.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

oldgoat64 said:


> Hookers or people that actually listen to the help you give?


If I live long enough to find someone who listens to my advice, I'll definitely be the oldest, living GTO owner.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I can't say that the night went perfect, and there is still fine-tuning to do, but he reported to me that it's running smooth as silk now.

It does suffer from a lack of power, up in the 3000 rpm range, but the plugs have been subjected to incorrect timing and backfiring, for the last few weeks, so they need to be addressed... And the dizzy is currently set for zero advance.

He needs a dial back timing light, to set his timing.

Then finally, the carb jetting needs to be verified, and adjusted if needed.

With all of the backfiring, the power valve couldve blown, but every Holley and Holley copy has had power-valve-protection, for the last 15 years, and they work very well (IME).


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Rockinindian said:


> First off a 750cfm is too big for a stock motor unless you rejetted it.


I respect it, but that's an unusual opinion. GM put 750 cfm carbs on Chevy 305's


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

That being said, if you put a 750 double pumper on a Pontiac 400, with highway gears, and then went stomping on it all over town, yes, I do believe it _could_ suck.


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

well army is da man !!! she runs so much better now, will work it over this weekend and fine tune stuff but at least it runs good now. cant thank y'all enough for all ideas ans thoughts but most of all to army for taking time out of his day searching for the "perfect" hooker to help me with my goat. 
hope i can help with any paint questions along the future for any and all.
thanks
goatboy


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

redhotgto66 said:


> well army is da man !!! she runs so much better now, will work it over this weekend and fine tune stuff but at least it runs good now. cant thank y'all enough for all ideas ans thoughts but most of all to army for taking time out of his day searching for the "perfect" hooker to help me with my goat.
> hope i can help with any paint questions along the future for any and all.
> thanks
> goatboy


And that's why we are here, to help put another car on the road with a smiling owner. We can often throw out ideas and what to do, but ultimately it is the owner who has to do the work and then report back on the findings. Not too often this group can't help in one way or another.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> I can't say that the night went perfect, and there is still fine-tuning to do, but he reported to me that it's running smooth as silk now.
> 
> It does suffer from a lack of power, up in the 3000 rpm range, but the plugs have been subjected to incorrect timing and backfiring, for the last few weeks, so they need to be addressed... And the dizzy is currently set for zero advance.
> 
> ...


Nice job....now you can go find some hookers


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> And that's why we are here, to help put another car on the road with a smiling owner. We can often throw out ideas and what to do, but ultimately it is the owner who has to do the work and then report back on the findings. Not too often this group can't help in one way or another.


As I said yesterday, who among us hasnt "been there"?

I "used to be" the worst offender when it came to fixing stuff. I always just threw money at problems and then fixed eighteen things at a time, instead of methodically approaching issues, one at a time. 

I don't regret the past, because I believe that the best way to learn how to do something right, is to do it wrong.

Im no mechanical expert, but I pride myself on being top tier when it comes to helping, commitment, and determination. This forum is the best that there is, and Im grateful to everyone who took the time to help me refine 35 years of being an idiot, into a guy who can find his own ass with two hands.

None of us will ever stop learning.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> Nice job....now you can go find some hookers


It's not funny. I know they're here but they're hiding!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> It's not funny. I know they're here but they're hiding!


Maybe check the hole you dug with your Kabota Judge tractor


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

BTW, here's the car we're working on...


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> BTW, here's the car we're working on...
> View attachment 159740


Redhots ? Holy crap that thing's beautiful !!! I'll have to see what wheels those are, they're sweet.....' 65 is the vibe


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Here's a really good in depth tuning and understanding guide for when you get to fine tuning your carb.Holley accelerator pumps/cams


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> BTW, here's the car we're working on...
> View attachment 159740


Why is his handle Redhotgto66 then? Are we talking about the same member you just helped?


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

Baaad65 said:


> Redhots ? Holy crap that thing's beautiful !!! I'll have to see what wheels those are, they're sweet.....' 65 is the vibe


those wheels are budnicks, actually i'm gonna sell these if interested lemme know, good tires on them too


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

Baaad65 said:


> Why is his handle Redhotgto66 then? Are we talking about the same member you just helped?


well my last gto i named redhotgto on the tag and it stuck for a nickname on all sites, of course then i bought a blue one but bluehotgto dont sound as good lol


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

redhotgto66 said:


> those wheels are budnicks, actually i'm gonna sell these if interested lemme know, good tires on them too


First of all why they look great and second what size and back set ??


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

yea they are a really expensive set of wheels, called budnick and they were 1000.00 each !
18'' front 225/40/zr18 nitto tires
20'' rear 255/35/zr20 nitto
dont know all the measurements but they fit under all the wheels wells, tires are well over half tread, very nice. 
i can text u some pics pm me your number if interested


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

forgot to answer why, lol
im getting old and i like what i like, i want more of a american racing torque thrust kinda wheel


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

redhotgto66 said:


> forgot to answer why, lol
> im getting old and i like what i like, i want more of a american racing torque thrust kinda wheel


Well I'm getting older too and that's going to be to big and expensive
for me also, I would consider 17" the max and have toyed with trading the ones I have for the same kind in 17's...but yours do look nice in the picture. Would like to see more pix of your car. Here are my 15's.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Nice work helping here Amy!

My 2 cents on the carb size debate. I had a 600 cfm Eddy carb on mine before the engine swap. My engine was a low compression 400 from 1974 that was a budget build with a very mild cam. The car ran great and performed fine so I never did anything to change this (build was from PO and they chose the carb). Fast forward. I used that same carb to break in a high strung 461 last year. I chose to do it this way because I did not want to be fighting with a mystery carb while breaking in a new engine. I did nothing to the carb other than increase the idle screw because it would not stay running set where it was for the 400. Surprisingly, it performed remarkably good with the undersized carb. Only issue was it drank fuel like my grandmother could put away Scotch. It was REALLY bad on gas, like 3-4 mpg bad. I swapped that carb out for an 800 cfm Eddy Performer (wanted an AVS but none were to be had) that I bought as a rebuilt due to new carb availability. Performance is night and day. The car was quick with the 600, it is downright scary with the 800. Unexpected bonus is it now gets somewhere around 9 mpg.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Jared said:


> Nice work helping here Amy


It's rewarding _when_ it works.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> It's rewarding _when_ it works.


Hmmm. We ain't talking about your ED problem. This is the GTO forum, not the NJ hooker forum.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I like 15" wheels as well. Be they Rally's, Torque Thrusts, Cragars, Keystones, Ansens, whatever. Can't stand the huge wheels and rubber band tires on '60's cars. Cheapens their look, the ride is hard, and it just looks wrong to me. But I remember these cars new and tend to drive each old car I have in its 'period' for the time-machine experience. When I want modern I drive modern. YMMV....


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

geeteeohguy said:


> Can't stand the huge wheels and rubber band tires on '60's cars.


Although I thoroughly respect all of my brethrens wheel and tire choices....

AMEN TO THAT!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

geeteeohguy said:


> I like 15" wheels as well. Be they Rally's, Torque Thrusts, Cragars, Keystones, Ansens, whatever. Can't stand the huge wheels and rubber band tires on '60's cars. Cheapens their look, the ride is hard, and it just looks wrong to me. But I remember these cars new and tend to drive each old car I have in its 'period' for the time-machine experience. When I want modern I drive modern. YMMV....
> View attachment 159759


That's why 17's are as big as I would ever go


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> 17's are as big as I would ever go


That's not what it says on the bathroom wall at Burger King.


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

boy this thread went south pretty fast


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

redhotgto66 said:


> boy this thread went south pretty fast


Im trying to keep everyone entertained while we wait for Amazon to deliver your timing light!


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## redhotgto66 (Sep 11, 2021)

hell im cheap im trying to find a friend with a light !


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

redhotgto66 said:


> hell im cheap im trying to find a friend with a light !


I see this! Don't go adding another ten pages to this thread, cheap skate!!


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## oldgoat64 (Jun 26, 2014)

armyadarkness said:


> Although I thoroughly respect all of my brethrens wheel and tire choices....
> 
> AMEN TO THAT!


$4000 would buy a lot of Hookers......or one REALLY good one!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

oldgoat64 said:


> $4000 would buy a lot of Hookers......or one REALLY good one!


Im in Atlantic City, so Im just happy when they dont have bullet wounds.


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