# 66 Lemans: First time out of shed in 6 yrs



## gibsona9 (Feb 18, 2011)

Hello all!

The bad news is that my 66 Lemans has been in my shed for the last 6 years, and I have not been starting it. 

The good news is, I have decided now is the time to get her running again! Last night I pumped up the tires, tonight I pushed her outside, Saturday morning I'll give her a good washing, and then I'll work on getting her running again... 

I am so excited, I can barely stand it! I had "forgotten" my love for Pontiacs for a long while, but taking that dusty car cover off got my blood racing again.

Here are the first pics of the Poncho, seeing sunlight for the first time in years:



















Brian B.


----------



## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Brian
welcome to the forum, and welcome back to Pontiacs...looks pretty good, hope the ***** or mice did'nt get inside it. i am doing a Tempest and after i seen the tailpanel chrome on the Lemans, i had to have it, i was able to find a nice one for mine. This is a great place for help and information, and we all like pics. These old *****'s have a way of making your heart race, never met a group of guys who were so passionate about their cars.

heres mine

http://s1098.photobucket.com/albums/g372/instg8ter/1966 Tempest/

Brian B. also....LOL


----------



## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Welcome to the forum. Super clean looking car, vinyl top is even good and don't see many bubbles. That should be a fun ride. Should be a fun summer of cruising!


----------



## gibsona9 (Feb 18, 2011)

Thanks for the replies guys...

It was about 70 degrees here in SC today, but I was so slammed at work I couldn't take any time off. I was dying to get out there and wash her off.

But, before dark tonight, I was able to go out and start cleaning the interior. Seats were musty, but cleaned off like a champ. Wow, I had forgotten such killer details such as the '66 horn button: chrome Pontiac arrowhead on a deep turquoise background...killer!

I look forward to chatting on this forum with you fellow Tin Indian freaks.

Brian


----------



## Indecision (Oct 24, 2010)

Beautiful car, I love those tail lamps. It's sad that it's been sitting for so long.


----------



## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

good looking car. glad to see it back in action soon.


----------



## gibsona9 (Feb 18, 2011)

Ok, another update...

As expected, today was one of the first 70+ degree days here, so I spent the morning cleaning the Lemans:
- Cleaned the interior (vinyl seats cleaned up well, lots of mildew...)
- Windows
- Full carwash
- Tires & wheels
- Chrome

All in all, the car is in pretty good shape given how long she has been stored. There were a few rust spots which have gotten worse (rear quarter, lower door, trunk molding area, etc. But all in all I am pleased.

Unfortunately, I'm going out of town on business, so once I got her washed, I rolled her back into the shed and put the cover back on, to protect from rain while I'm gone! 

But when I return, I'm gonna try and get her running. Probably will change fluids (oil, gas, coolant), put in new plugs, etc. Any suggestions on what to do before starting a car that hasn't been started in a long while?


























Thanks
Brian


----------



## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

lookin good Brian, how many miles does that motor have on it? After 6 years i am guessing all the oil has drained down and left everything gummed up. one of the motor guys should have a good routine for starting her back up, may want to pull the dizzy and pump the oil back up after changing fluids so you dont put excessive wear on it cranking to start. A good carb cleaning would not hurt either as i am sure it has varnish on it. may get away with putting some 93 octane on top of whats in the tank as far as the gas goes.


----------



## Indecision (Oct 24, 2010)

The car cleaned up really nice man, keep us posted.


----------



## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

Very nice! Even has A/C. I would put a little oil in the cylinders before you leave. New gas for sure.

I have started cars that have sat for over 20 years. I run them around by hand with a socket first to make sure it isn't locked up. I have seen locked up cars run with diesel put in the cylinders for a while. You turn the engine back and forth till freed up. then even ran with no trouble.

Good friend did it to a 73 mustang notchback with a 351 cleveland. It was locked tight. After a couple weeks with the cylinders full of diesel he worked it back and forth till it was free. Changed every thing, fluid, tune up, rebuilt carb and drove it for a couple years. He got it from another guy at work we knew for $300 buck because he thought it was done for. When he was told how it was freed and only took under $100 to fix he was pissed.


----------



## gibsona9 (Feb 18, 2011)

Ha, that's a good story, Likethat.

Instg8ter, it has about 154,000 on the original motor, so I'm due for a rebuild (or a new bigger motor). My goal is just to get this one running so I can drive the car to work once a week, and keep the momentum going until I can afford an overhaul.

I'll keep you folks posted when I get back in town, should be a few weeks. Thanks for all the support and interest!


----------



## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

like stated pull the plugs, squirt some diesel in the holes and let it soak the rings while you are gone, when you get back change all the fluids and clean up the carb and linkage, check your belts and hoses including vacuum, new battery, gas and fire it up.


----------



## crustysack (Oct 5, 2008)

Welcome back!!!I want to hear the reason for leaving it sit for 6 years. Thats a nice looking ride you should have been out enjoying it.Well at least you can start catching up with her.:cheers


----------



## gibsona9 (Feb 18, 2011)

Hey Crusty,

OK, I'm back from my business trip...

For years, I used the Poncho as my daily driver, and my boys (high school & college years) drove some newer vehicles. Finally, when they got up and out, I started driving one of the newer cars, since it was more "user friendly" for day-to-day use.

I thought that it would be good for the Pontiac, to keep it out of the rain and such, but I got lazy and neglected the car. Then, it needed a new battery, etc etc, wouldn't start, etc, and pretty soon it just became the old car that sat in the shed.

Shame on me, I know, but I am getting ready to reverse all that, God willing!

Thanks for the interest,
Brian


----------



## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Nice Avatar shot Brian, looks like she cleaned up pretty good, keep us posted on the progress...:cheers


----------



## gibsona9 (Feb 18, 2011)

OK, first report from the shop...

- New battery installed
- Tried to crank, wouldn't crank (no spark)
- Cleaned points and plugs, got it to start up
- Got a carb rebuild kit, gonna spiff up the ole carb
- Brakes looked good, no need for new drums

Not a bad report, all things considered. I'm gonna call them tomorrow to see what else needs to be done, then I'll get to drive here home, woo hoo!

Actually, just realized I need to 1) get the car insured again, and 2) get a tag for it. Ah, heck, I'm driving it home anyway, I'll worry about that stuff later!

Eagerly anticipating,
Brian

PS - The guys are Pontiac specialists, and they had really good things to say about the car. It is a "survivor", that I got from the original owner, and neither of us really ever changed anything, so it is truly all original. They said they rarely see a car that is so clean and original....nice compliment!


----------



## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

sound like your getting that Pontiac fever again Brian, good to hear everything checked out, always funner to spiff them up while you drive them. get the insurance mine is 22.00 a month for driving season only coverage on stated value of 20,000 and an accident can be expensive with what the parts and labor costs. plus you will want to drive it more than JUST home....LOL....arty:arty:arty:arty:arty:arty:arty:


----------



## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Reg is cheaper on classic cars here in FL. For insurance I also have collectors car insurance for $116 a year, 0 deductible on comp and collision, just have to garage it and not drive it to work, as far as they know...
Nice compliment from the shop, nice to see it running again, congrats!


----------



## gibsona9 (Feb 18, 2011)

Well, it seems I spoke too soon...

Seems the car has trouble starting. Once they get it started, it runs like a top, but it doesn't want to start.

They have done the following:
Fuel: New gas, new fuel filter, rebuilt the carb (original Rochester 2G).
Spark: New plugs, new points, new distributor, new battery. (Turns out my plug wires are the original ones, wow!)

So we have air, fuel, and spark, but it doesn't want to start. Current thinking is that the starter may be weak, and does not turn the engine over quick enough to start. (We had a battery charger connected, so it should not have been due to the battery getting low...) 

Any ideas? I would have thought these guys would have been able to get her fully operational by now. 

Somewhat bummed,
Brian


----------



## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

hot start, cold start or both?


----------



## gibsona9 (Feb 18, 2011)

Instg8tr,

Both, I believe.

Is it possible for a starter to go bad in a gradual way? In other words, it turns the engine over, but not quickly as it should?

Or possibly, the battery cables are not allowing enough voltage through? I suppose that would be easy enough to measure...

I'm gonna call on Monday and see if they've made any progress. (Hard for me to be patient, ha!)

Thanks
Brian


----------



## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Starter is cheap insurance, and it will be another new piece on the car. Slow cranking could be bad connections on the cables, pos and ground. Take them off and clean them or replace. Starters do wear out, the brushes go bad and don't allow enough voltage to spin it over fast enough. Sounds like they got most of the other work done, did they clean the trash out of the gas tank, contaminated gas will clog an carb pretty quick. Make sure they put a good fuel filter on it, and check it often, disconnect it and back flush it and see what comes out of it. The sock in the tank also clogs up.


----------



## gibsona9 (Feb 18, 2011)

OK, we have an update! Actually we have good news, more good news, and bad news.

The good news: the starter was bad! They put in a new starter, and now she cranks easily, runs well, and idles smoothly. I'm not saying it runs perfectly, but it sure is good to hear it run after so long.

More good news: the transmission, which was leaking badly when I had parked it, wasn't leaking a bit when they filled it up. Not sure why this would be, but there don't seem to be any leaks from it anywhere.

So, now with the engine starting and running, and the tranny leak apparently fixed, I went to the shop today to drive her home.

The bad news... Unfortunately, there is an issue with the driveshaft yoke hitting the underside of the body. This car has always had a bit of an issue with this, from the day I first test-drove it with the original owner. If you hit a big pothole or a dip in the road at high speed, the driveshaft would hit against the underside of the car, and scare you to death. 

Well, the problem has apparently gotten worse in storage. Today, I drove the car about 3 mph around the parking lot, and you could hear a clatter. Looking under the car, sure enough you could see a clean shiny mark on the U-joint connecting the driveshaft to the tranny, where it was hitting up against the car. 

So, I decided to leave the car in the shop to see if they can fix this. Basically, the variables controlling the clearance between the driveshaft and the tranny tunnel are:
1. Engine mounts old/compressed -- engine down, tranny up more than spec
2. Tranny mounts old/compressed
3. Body mounts old/compressed -- Body down more than spec

Have any of you ever come across a car which has had this problem? Is it generally fixed by replacing these rubber mounts/bushings? I am the second owner, and the car has never had a major accident that I am aware of. So I am a bit baffled about this problem, and why it would have gotten worse in storage.

Any thoughts, oh ye of Pontiac persuasion?

Disappointed a bit,
Brian


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Don't be disappointed, tranny mounts, maybe a tunnel tweak and a set of drag bags at the very least and you should be good.  :cheers


----------



## gibsona9 (Feb 18, 2011)

Rukee,

Thanks for the reply.

I understand the need for tranny mounts, but why the tunnel tweak and drag bags? 

Actually, my solution back in the day for this was a pair of air shocks. I would inflate them to raise the rear of the car, and that would help alleviate the driveshaft issue. Did that today, and it did not seem to help.

But ideally, I would like to understand and fix the root cause of the problem. It seems like drag bags (and air shocks, etc) are a "bandaid" to help mask the problem, but not necessarily a true fix of the actual problem.

I am hoping new tranny mounts and possibly motor mounts will help...

Thanks
Brian


----------



## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Tranny yoke means front of driveshaft.. So as rookie said, tunnel tweak. I would make sure it's the correct crossmember, and has the right tranny mount, sounds like it's mounted too high. I had bad motor mounts and tranny mounts on my 66 and nothing hit. You may be able to spacer the crossmember down as a temp fix, washers between the tranny mount and frame. Sounds odd and congrats on getting it running..


----------



## gibsona9 (Feb 18, 2011)

Sorry for my ignorance here, but what do you mean by "tunnel tweak"? Is this adjusting the body mounts that control the position of the tunnel?


----------



## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Tunnel tweak is clearancing the tunnel with a hammer so it doesn't hit anymore. Or cutting and rewelding the tunnel for clearance. There is no reason if everything is right for this to happen. You can get the tranny and motor mounts for about $30 for all of them, just to see if that's the problem, then go from there.


----------



## gibsona9 (Feb 18, 2011)

Thanks, Jetstang.

That's the current plan, replace tranny and motor mounts, then see how things behave.

I'll keep y'all posted.

Brian


----------



## gibsona9 (Feb 18, 2011)

And the bizarre saga continues....

So, after a week, the shop guy calls and says the car is ready. They replaced engine mounts and tranny mounts, and the driveshaft clearance issue is gone -- no thumping noises anymore. I told him great, I'll be there today to drive it home. Excitement builds.

So after work, my buddy drives me out to the shop (for the second time), I pay the guy for the motor/tranny mount work, and prepare for the first delightful drive in my ole 66 in a long long time!

Oh, he says, the gas is really really low, I'll need to get to the nearest gas station to fill er up. Nearest one is actually directly across the street. So I crank her up, put it in gear, and head out.

Car runs out of gas after about 100 feet, but I still have some momentum, so I look both ways, and coast the car across the street into the gas station. Didn't quite make it to the pumps, so I had to push it. Put $20 of gas in, and go to start her up.

Car cranks, but does not fire up. I assume it is because it just ran out of fuel, so I pump the gas a few times (mistake). Anyhow, after a number of tries, the car starts, but won't run for more than a few seconds before dying. This is particularly embarrassing, as I have just told all the old guys in this country gas station about the car, how I have just paid to get it running, how this is my first drive, etc...

Long story short, the shop guy sees my trouble and runs across the street, takes off the air cleaner, and we get to looking at the carb. He notices it is flooded, holds down the gas pedal, and cranks it up. After he gets it running, he sees that after several seconds fuel is spilling out the overflow tube. It seems the float is stuck, and after trying to unstick it with no luck, we limp it back to the shop.

Basically, we conclude that the carb is flooded pretty heavily, and he needs to check out why the float is stuck (or maybe improperly adjusted), and since it is about 5:30pm we agree that today is not the day to drive it home.

OK, the flooding was my fault. I definitely pumped the gas pedal too many times, when it was not necessary to do so. But I'm still kinda peeved that he left the car on empty, knowing I was coming to pick the car up today. Would it have hurt to put $10 of gas in and added another $10 to my bill?

So, he's gonna double-check the carb float tomorrow, road test it THOROUGHLY, and then trailer it back to my house (free of charge) so I won't have to ask my buddy to take out there a third time!

Once again disappointed but hoping I'll actually be driving it soon,
Brian


----------



## gibsona9 (Feb 18, 2011)

OK, at long last, another update!

Long story short, the shop kept the car an additional month or more (!), trying to fiddle with the carb, timing, etc. to get it running right. Every time I would call the owner, he said he had a couple more ideas, but was having no luck.

Finally, I just decided to ask him to bring the car back to me, which he did. The day after I got the car back, I had to go to Japan for a week, so I really couldn't test things out.

Well, I'm back, and so today, I devoted some time to the ole Lemans. I went out to the shed, took her cover off, cranked her up (started pretty decently, actually), and let it run for a bit in the driveway. 

I could definitely hear a lot of valve clatter, and it seemed to be running really rough. But, after a bit, it seemed to get better, so I took her out for a quick spin around the block.....

...and it went really well! Car ran fairly well, tranny didnt leak a drop, and after many years I was once again piloting the Poncho! Granted, the motor really needs a rebuild (154k on original motor, never rebuilt), but bottom line is I can enjoy driving it until I raise the funds to fix her up.

Woooo hooooo!!!!

Next steps: 
- Take some increasingly lengthy little country drives, just to test her out
- Get insurance and license tag again
- Goal: Drive her to work on Fridays


----------



## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

get Insurance and tags before increasingly lengthy country drives, hate to have a cow jump in front of you at WOT....congrats Gibson enjoy, finally got mine back togather and doing the country drive thing to dial her in....nice to live in the country outskirts but i did terrorize the subdivision a bit at first...

http://s1098.photobucket.com/albums/g372/instg8ter/1966 Tempest/

brian


----------



## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Glad they fixed the mounts and the impact is gone. Sorry I missed the post about the carb. Takes a couple hours to rebuild a carb, not months. You didn't flood the car, pump the gas as much as you want, float will NEVER stick from it. If it flooded, it could of fouled plugs, so new plugs could be in order, even if they aren't fouled, and just been through hell.. Spray some carb cleaner down the carb to clean the plugs and any other goop out. It may fix some woes.
Then cruise the piss out of the car!! No reason for the mechanic to leave it on empty, especially when they charge you so much, and have people working for nothing... The car didn't run out of gas, it flooded.. Change the oil now, it still has gas in it and will kill the bottom end, because it was flooding when they were working on it, and still delivered it. Time to find a mechanic that cares about your car and wants the work..


----------



## gibsona9 (Feb 18, 2011)

Thanks for the replies, JetStang and Instg8tr....

Today I took a half-day vacation and straightened out my insurance, taxes, and tags, so I can now cruise around without fear of getting pulled over. Only fear now is the uneasiness that comes with not knowing how reliable the car is.

Only way to fix that is, like you said JetStang, to drive it and drive it, and regain my confidence in the car. (Find out what works and what doesn't, what quirks it has, how driveable it really is, etc).

So, that's the plan for the weekend - Pontiac cruising, really for the first significant amount in about ten years. I am so psyched!!!

arty:


----------



## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

have fun Gibby, and watch for the LAW.....


----------



## gibsona9 (Feb 18, 2011)

Well, took my 23-yr old son for a spin today in the Lemans... It was really nice. Windows down, not too hot, car ran fairly well.

Only two issues:

1) By the time I got home, brake pedal was all the way to the floor. Checked the fluid level, it was almost gone. Refilled, now I will need to bleed the brakes. But, more likely I have a leak somewhere, so I'll have to look around a bit.

2) As the shop guy had said, if you accelerate hard under load, the car backfires through the carb. Not sure if this is an accelerator pump thing, or a timing advance issue, or a stretched nylon timing chain issue (this motor has never been rebuilt, so prob has the original nylon chain...). Any ideas on this one?

All in all, this was the first time Zach had ridden with me in the Poncho in about ten years, and he really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed this low-speed cruise!

Brian


----------



## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Look for the tire that's wet on the inside, and that's the bad wheel cylinder. If they are all dry, then look for the drips on the floor. Glad the cruise went pretty good! Backfire through the carb may be a valve not closing all the way, maybe a week valve spring or crud in the cylinder not letting the valve close. Get some seafoam and suck it into the engine through a vacuum line and let it clean the gunk out of the cylinders.:cheers


----------



## gibsona9 (Feb 18, 2011)

JetStang:

I had never heard about Seafoam, but after reading about it, it seems interesting... I bet there is a huge amount of gunk inside this motor. I'll give it a shot.

And, hopefully I can find the brake fluid leak, so I can get her back on the road again. Today's cruise made me realize how much I have missed driving this car over the years....

I'll keep you posted.


----------



## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

You really cant hurt the motor at this point. I used to use the 5 min oil flush on cars I get, figured it would either be good or bad, tell you the true condition of the motor. Seafoam is the same, just in the cylinder. Couldn't hurt. Also check your dist and connections to see if you are losing spark under load and causing the misfire.


----------

