# Why does everyone want to criticize a clone so much?



## GTO_Mike_T (Sep 7, 2021)

To be honest with you, the only time that a clone vs real GTO truely matters is when it comes time to sell the car, so I don’t get the nerve of people badmouthing someone else’s ride because that person prefers the styling of a GTO versus a LeMans or Tempest. After all, the GTO started as an option became its own model. Hell, I have seen LeManses that were ordered from the factory with almost every GTO option (except hideaways), including the GTO hood with tach. I even know a guy whose father ordered a Tempest with the endura bumper, GTO hood, and disc brakes. If you knew the right dealer, you could build a Tempest or LeMans with whatever options you wanted. Same options, same steel, different VIN.
The main reason it irks me is what happened to my car. It started its life as a 69 GTO, but after an unfortunate incident with a tree the cab was smashed. I was able to find a guy selling a solid body from a 68 LeMans (only the body, no frame and no front end) and was able to put I back together. I was the only body in the area, that was even slightly affordable. So now my car has a ’69 front end, suspension, frame, interior, etc…, but with a 68 cab, dash, doors and trunk. The VIN got smashed when tee tree fell, and technically the VIN was for a 69, not a 68, so it wouldn’t have worked anyway. Now, technically it would be considered a 68 GTO clone with Ram Air, but was born a true 69 GTO. I guess technically it should be considered a 68/69 LeMans GTO hybrid. Now I must hear people badmouth my car because I rebuild my goat after an unfortunate accident. I don’t plan on ever selling my car, so who cars if the VIN says 242 or not if I am not trying to deceive people to get more money out of them? It is my car after all, and styled the way I wanted and could afford, so who has the right to tell me I am wrong?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

In 35 years, the on;y people whom Ive ever heard bad-mouthing or questioning clones, are chumps on the street. Ive never heard anyone on this forum... in other words, the experts, say anything negative about a Lemans.

And... Just as with anything else, street chumps only ever know just enough to get their foot in their mouth.

They always know about 6 packs, but never why or when they were used. They never know that all GTO's had Pontiac engines, and not a "Big Block or Small Block".

If you're asking why a GTO is perceived to be more important, it's because it was the commercialized, high performance version of the car... so bluebook is higher.

But as you pointed out, IME, most Lemans were far better optioned than GTO's. Personally, I'd have changed over all of the vin stuff... but regardless... people are idiots. Theyve learned all that they know about politics, covid, and muscle cars from either sitting in a bar or facebook.

Next time that someone asks about your 242, ask them if their favorite GTO was the 67, big-block, six pack. When they say yes, you will be satisfied.


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## 65GTO1of1 (Jan 25, 2021)

Because it's a lie. It's like wearing a fake Rolex. If you have a Lemans - be proud you have a Lemans. Show it off as a Lemans. Why lie? A lemans is great! Why pretend you have something you don't?


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## Sick467 (Oct 29, 2019)

My definition of a "clone " car is one that looks like the intended model, but does not have the VIN to back it. I can understand someone trying to build a clone for the challenge, but would never do it myself. If I had a Tempest or a Lemans to begin with, it would get a GTO hood and some of the goodies that the GTO had, but it would not get any GTO badging. I'm just not going to badge a car to impress people. None of it really matters to me, what people do with their cars. I don't want to sound too opinionated on the subject, but those that clone cars to trick buyers should be dealt with severely, however. I cannot imagine what it would be like to always have to admit that my car was a clone OR let it pass over and lead the other person to think it is the real deal. 

Mike, I'd have no problem with you honestly calling your car a GTO, it was built that way. You might have a hard time selling it as one unless you have some impeccable documents to back it up.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

No problem at all with a cloned car. I have a huge problem with a VIN swapped car. Since you didn't do that, enjoy what you have and call it a day. As for someone who would dog your car at a show, find someone better to chat with.

My dad special ordered a Cutlass S back in the day that had all of the performance goodies without the badging. Kind of a strange car. He wanted to low key then let my mother pick the color. Of course, she picked bright orange.


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## Atarchus (Aug 4, 2020)

The problem with "clone" vs "not-clone" is that the line gets blurry. Like your instance, once parts are swapped what defines a clone? If you have a rust bucket GTO that uses a good Lemans as a donor, it becomes more of a LeMans than a GTO by the time you're done, even though it has a GTO vin. Add in the complication of people vin swapping and unless you have a air tight paper trail and history of owners you never really know what you're buying. I bought a clone because of this, at the end of the day the parts are the same. You're paying for 242 pedigree. The fake Rolex argument doesn't work because the fake Rolex isn't the same parts as a real Rolex. A restored clone GTO and real GTO will have the same parts, the same parts will be used to restore both and the frame/panels and everything else came from the same production facility to begin with. Why pay more for the same thing? Don't get me wrong, I understand that pedigree plays a role in value. A sword proven to be owned by George Washington will be worth a lot more than the exact same sword that wasn't owned by him. I'm just not wealthy enough or stupid enough to not care about the price difference, so I'm happy with all the parts and no pedigree.

When people ask if mine is a clone, how I answer usually depends on my mood and how long I want to talk. If I'm in a hurry or don't feel like talking, it's real. If I don't mind answering questions, it's a clone. I find it rude to ask so I don't mind giving them a bullshit answer. Maybe I'll ask them if that's their real hair or if his wifes boobs are real lol.

Yes, if I ever sell it it will be advertised as a clone.

_Edit_
I think it's also a big difference in the type of person you are. Some people REALLY care and the car culture is a big part of their life. Others don't care, don't put their cars in shows and aren't bothered by it. My recommendation is that unless you are trying to win trophies at shows, don't worry about what other people think. It's your car, what you like and let the haters hate


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

It's not a matter of criticizing the clone, it's a matter of criticizing the people that go around touting that the have a GTO.

They don't.

They still have whatever it "was" but now it was cloned into something it's not.

Terms to use:

It used to be a LeMans, but now it "looks" like a GTO

I wasn't about to pay the money for a real GTO, so I made a fake one.

Or how about..... It's not a GTO, just looks like one.

Sure it's a GTO and I'm a liar.

I'm sure I could go on but life is short.


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## Banjos (May 10, 2021)

As the proud owner of a '65 LeMans, "When will you clone it cuz it's less cool than a GTO and no one will know cuz it's a '65?" is typically the question I get when at a Car Shows. I respond with "She's too fine to be a Goat... besides, changing out the hood and finding a 389 to replace the 455 would be too expensive." That usually shuts them up. Cruise-ins (at least in my area) tend to be a different crowd that appreciate it's not a clone. When it comes to GTO Mike's situation, I always thought it was the frame and original powertrain that determined what a "Frankenstein" car really is.


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## Atarchus (Aug 4, 2020)

If I had a nice LeMans I wouldn't clone it either. I bought mine as a clone already. It was a no brainer when mine was $15k less than the nearest excellent condition "242" convertible GTO's.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

Lemans are cool, GTOs are cool, Tempests are cool and clones are cool too...as long as they are revealed as "tributes" if someone asks.

VIN tag swapping is not cool, bad mouthing someones car is not cool and making clones to fool buyers is not cool.

I think these issues with GTO-to-Judge clones are even more sensitive than Lemans-to-GTO clones. 

GTO_Mike, I like the GTO/Lemans hybrid moniker. It's cool that the car lives on and cooler that you didn't rivet the wrecked tags to the Lemans shell. 

Screw the haters.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Clones matter when you sell them and when they are represented as a Gto in a car show. Do you know how many chevelle Super Sports there are? MORE THAN WERE MADE. Just my 2 cents.


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

There is a woman out here who goes around strutting her stuff telling everybody she owns a 1965 GTO Convertible.

One day, she did it to me.

I told her, "no you don't". She took offence to it and said, "YES, I do". I told her she didn't and that I'm the one that sold her ex-husband the parts needed to convert it from a LeMans to a GTO.

She don't say too much to me now.


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## LATECH (Jul 18, 2018)

GTO is a homologation of parts to build a performance car. Gran Turismo omologato .

My car is a lemans and a gto.It is a homologation of many cars /parts
I badged it as a GTO and I am selling it as a clone.
The homologation makes it a GTO, after the fact of course
But not a real GTO.
My car is a lot more fun than some numbers matching car and if it breaks its a LOT cheaper to fix.I am not so obsessed with my car that i need exact numbers matching,It was about making a fun car that runs on pump gas, is show quality and can be driven daily.
Tell someone you have a GTO and at least they think they know what that is. Tell them you have a Lemans and they have no clue...

At least you guys know what the difference is.
I have plenty of car guys who compliment my car.
You have to admit its pretty sweet.
Since it has a california re VIN on the door jamb there is no way to do a PHS. I do have a history of where the car lived, N mexico, and california, the arizona.
Selling it as a clone, just like the ad says .
If you have a problem with a clone...keep walking...


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

You have pretty close to the story of my car. PO wrecked his GTO bought a LeMans. to bring his GTO back to life. It was never finished. Drive train was swapped. I have two hoods three front fenders I have the full lemans drive train. In these type of cases I can see the GTO owner saving his old car. Not a badging guy not SS, Z28, RT or GTO. I got burnt out early on those determined to prove your car isnt what the badges indicate. It doesn't sound like an SS? I almost lost it when I heard that, too funny. 

To answer your question why do people hate clones. Cause it points out what little difference there is between three models of the same car. So what are you paying 100k for ? Marketing?


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## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

I like the term "tribute" better than clone. Clone has a negative connotation.
Asking why people react negatively to tributes is like asking why humans do any of the crazy stuff we do.
Folks that have a negative reaction have their reasons. You can try an engage them in conversation to find out why or you can just move on.
Some do think that eventually any GTO tribute is going to be attempted to be sold as original and no amount of reassurance will convince them otherwise.


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

Mine'sa66 said:


> I like the term "tribute" better than clone. Clone has a negative connotation.
> Asking why people react negatively to tributes is like asking why humans do any of the crazy stuff we do.
> Folks that have a negative reaction have their reasons. You can try an engage them in conversation to find out why or you can just move on.
> Some do think that eventually any GTO tribute is going to be attempted to be sold as original and no amount of reassurance will convince them otherwise.


Do you realize how many '69 Judges literally disappeared once Pontiac Historical Services (aka: PHS) hit the market?


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Your history of the rebuild of the 68/69 is what makes the car cool in my eyes. It is a real American hot-rod story. Crashing the tree, finding another body, etc..

Remember that all of our cars are part of the “Tempset car Line” and depending on years (62 to 70) at least had four models, Tempest Base, Tempest Custom, Lemans (and in 66) a GTO. Before that GTO was an added package to one of the models.

So all are Tempests, and then eithe Base, Custom, Lemans and GTO, “sprint falls in there as well with the OHC six cylinder.

The great thing about all these cars is how you can make it yours. Some want the fastest car, some want the most beautiful, some want to to win the shows, some just just like driving it, some want perfect smooth running, some want a convertible, some want just a red one.

In the end is is all about the fun and enjoyment you have with it. I know some love to talk original everything, but not everybody has to die for that. If so all 32 fords would have stayed original and not chopped and dropped, and hoods and fenders ripped off and lake pipes, gosh that wasn’t original……or maybe it was more “original American hot rodding” than any factory made 32 Ford.

If you had your choice today of an original 32 Ford, or an “American Original” chopped deuce with lake pipes that raced on the bonneville salt flats which one would you want? And which one do you think would cost more? And be more fun?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

First, why didn't you go to the DMV and get a VIN from them to document your car using your registration and the numbers on the frame?

I get the '68 body, but you also used the '68 doors with the vent windows, right? '68 has different tail lights, rear bumper, and side marker lights, right?

So it may be a true '69 GTO, but it is also pretty far from near original, so what is it really? At the Norwalk Pontiac show there was a top notch '69 Convertible. The owner was straight up and called it a "Frankenstein". He said nothing in the drive train was original, the car was in poor shape and he cobbled it together with other parts, then painted it a color he liked, not the original color. He said he gets a lot of flak when he goes to a show where the "purist" attend, but he did not care because he built the car the way he wanted and drives it regularly putting quite a few miles on it every year - he and his wife simply enjoy the car as un-original as it is. Said he probably had 15K into because he did not try to restore it.

My problem with "clones", "tributes", and LS swaps are that they are not what they seem to be and few will openly admit what the car truly is. I go to many car shows and you would think that every 1964-66 Pontiac that left the factory was a GTO and had tripower and 4-speed. I am good with any tri-power 4-speed car, but why do most have to change a Tempest or Lemans into a GTO? The argument that the GTO is an option or based on the Tempest/Lemans line anyway - is a lame argument. People do the GTO clone to get more money in a sale. Yep, you can PHS document most cars and know it is not a GTO, but they still pull more $dollars than its born as name, Tempest or Lemans. I am not impressed when I read "frame off and every nut/bolt replaced and all parts were NOS in turning this Lemans/Tempest into a concours GTO tribute." It was done because of the money it can fetch versus "frame off rotiserie rebuild with every nut/bolt replaced and all parts were NOS in turning this Lemans/Tempest into a concours example of the its big brother the GTO." You won't get the $dollars invested in a Lemans/Tempest restored to factory as you will a GTO clone/tribute car - period.

I like different and that's why my Lemans will remain a Lemans in body, but the rest is resto-mod with basically very little that will be factory. I hardly ever see a Lemans, let alone a Tempest, at a car show. I might be looking at several, but they all say GTO in appearance. But this is also true of any manufacturer brand, the big engines/4-speed, posi, and rebadging simply makes money sense when value comes into play.

But on the whole, it is your car. Do what you want just as I am doing. If the car is done "right", those looking at it may expect to see a GTO because it is what many know, but a well done Tempest/Lemans will still bring a lot of interest crusing down the road or at a car show. And those GTO and GTO clones/tributes hate to get stomped on by a Tempest or Lemans.


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

PontiacJim said:


> First, why didn't you go to the DMV and get a VIN from them to document your car using your registration and the numbers on the frame?
> 
> I get the '68 body, but you also used the '68 doors with the vent windows, right? '68 has different tail lights, rear bumper, and side marker lights, right?
> 
> ...


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Lemans guy said:


> Your history of the rebuild of the 68/69 is what makes the car cool in my eyes. It is a real American hot-rod story. Crashing the tree, finding another body, etc..
> 
> Remember that all of our cars are part of the “Tempset car Line” and depending on years (62 to 70) at least had four models, Tempest Base, Tempest Custom, Lemans (and in 66) a GTO. Before that GTO was an added package to one of the models.
> 
> ...


That about sums it up , well said LG


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## 11th Indian (Feb 15, 2018)

I criticize clones Vs anything, simply because I have run into so many where they just stopped being referred to as clones and start becoming the authentic item for sake of increased value in a sale... Like democrats say, a lie repeated often enough becomes the truth.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

11th Indian said:


> I criticize clones Vs anything, simply because I have run into so many where they just stopped being referred to as clones and start becoming the authentic item for sake of increased value in a sale... Like democrats say, a lie repeated often enough becomes the truth.


👎


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## Honeyharbour62 (Jul 15, 2018)

armyadarkness said:


> In 35 years, the on;y people whom Ive ever heard bad-mouthing or questioning clones, are chumps on the street. Ive never heard anyone on this forum... in other words, the experts, say anything negative about a Lemans.
> 
> And... Just as with anything else, street chumps only ever know just enough to get their foot in their mouth.
> 
> ...


Great comeback question Army.


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## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

I guess I'll add this....
I bought the service manual for my '66 GTO.
The cover on the book reads....
"1966 Tempest chassis shop manual"


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## roger1 (Jun 25, 2020)

I don't care for the term clone or the term tribute. Call it what it is and that would be a Lemans with GTO badging.
It's a piece of art. Do people criticize a print of an original painting? No they don't nor should anyone. Same with a car. As long as a person is totally honest when asked or selling, what difference does it make? Answer is none.
Do what makes YOU happy!


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## Bob J (Sep 5, 2020)

So I think i have a clone~ my VIN starts with 804B--- denotes a :
8 - V8
0 - Tempest
4 - 1964
B - Built in Baltimore.

But my body ID plate has 2227 which indicates 2door _Lemans_ sports coupe... I bought is as a GTO 'tribute' car. It looks exactly like the GTO except the tail lights are on the corners not the strip under the trunk. I am fine with clones that look like the real deal- cheaper, for one. And at least with my year, 1964, whether its a GTO, tempest or lemans, they are all getting really hard to find. It all comes down to personal preference... Would you rather pay north of $60 grand for a matching numbers or 30k for a really well done clone? I would be too paranoid to drive a real GTO for fear of damaging it. As for my car, it does have a true GTO hood, and a built motor- i am pushing low 13s in the quarter....And that's what a goat was- massive engine in a small size car. So if you have a clone, enjoy it. Drive it. There are not too many goats out there... and too many camaros chevelles and mustangs.


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## theamcguy (Jan 14, 2005)

Why does everyone want to criticize a clone so much? Because it's a fake. There is no other way to say it. Lets look at the art world for reference. If I hire a master artist to paint an exact copy of the Mona Lisa because I can't afford the real one when he is done it is not a tribute painting, a recreation, or even a clone it is a fake. In the car hobby we use euphemisms like tribute, recreation, and clone to avoid using the word which describes exactly what the car is, it is a fake pure and simple. You might enjoy your car, you may have built it and did a real nice job, but it is still a fake. I'm sorry you cannot afford a real GTO I can't afford the Mona Lisa; doesn't mean I'll spend my time painting an exact copy because when I'm done I'll have a fake. In the car hobby we need to stop using words like tribute car, recreation, and clone and call these cars what they are fakes; maybe if we do these cars will stop popping up like weeds on a finely manicured golf course.


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

theamcguy said:


> Why does everyone want to criticize a clone so much? Because it's a fake. There is no other way to say it. Lets look at the art world for reference. If I hire a master artist to paint an exact copy of the Mona Lisa because I can't afford the real one when he is done it is not a tribute painting, a recreation, or even a clone it is a fake. In the car hobby we use euphemisms like tribute, recreation, and clone to avoid using the word which describes exactly what the car is, it is a fake pure and simple. You might enjoy your car, you may have built it and did a real nice job, but it is still a fake. I'm sorry you cannot afford a real GTO I can't afford the Mona Lisa; doesn't mean I'll spend my time painting an exact copy because when I'm done I'll have a fake. In the car hobby we need to stop using words like tribute car, recreation, and clone and call these cars what they are fakes; maybe if we do these cars will stop popping up like weeds on a finely manicured golf course.


Stone cold but true.

Truth always hurts people's feelings but only those people who perpetuate the untrue.


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## roger1 (Jun 25, 2020)

But it's not a fake.
It's a real car. It's made from the same exact parts made at the same time and factory. Still, I believe in total honesty when it comes to presentation. It makes a huge difference to some people but no difference to others while many will have mixed feelings. But I am for people making themselves happy no matter what other people may think.


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

X2 with Roger , most people can’t afford the real thing. Do what you want, but don’t misrepresent at sale.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

theamcguy said:


> Why does everyone want to criticize a clone so much? Because it's a fake. There is no other way to say it. Lets look at the art world for reference. If I hire a master artist to paint an exact copy of the Mona Lisa because I can't afford the real one when he is done it is not a tribute painting, a recreation, or even a clone it is a fake. In the car hobby we use euphemisms like tribute, recreation, and clone to avoid using the word which describes exactly what the car is, it is a fake pure and simple. You might enjoy your car, you may have built it and did a real nice job, but it is still a fake. I'm sorry you cannot afford a real GTO I can't afford the Mona Lisa; doesn't mean I'll spend my time painting an exact copy because when I'm done I'll have a fake. In the car hobby we need to stop using words like tribute car, recreation, and clone and call these cars what they are fakes; maybe if we do these cars will stop popping up like weeds on a finely manicured golf course.


So if I like the Mona lisa and want one in my house of course I would have to get a reprint and as long as I don't try and sell it as the original what's wrong with being happy? Just because someone buys all the correct gto parts and installs them himself instead of some guy on an assembly line doing it when a Lemans came down the line and the build sheet said put the gto parts on this one no one should be hating on them. He's right most people can't afford a factory gto because the prices are crazy so I guess then you're not supposed to make yourself happy? Again as long as you don't lie to a seller or switch vin tags you're not hurting anyone and last time I was at a show they didn't ask for your vin number, research it and say "oh no you can't put gto on the window card". People make so many other wild modifications that don't make sense to a nice car that I'm not worried about checking every gto's vin number, and they aren't popping up like weeds...that would be Chevelles, Mustangs, and Cameros. Life's to short to be angry at first world problems 👍


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## roger1 (Jun 25, 2020)

pontrc said:


> ...Do what you want, but don’t misrepresent at sale.


To add to that, I'd say don't misrepresent or skirt a question if asked at any time. And don't change any numbers on the car. Do what you want but do it without guilt or shame. Do it with pride and be totally open about it.


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## theamcguy (Jan 14, 2005)

Hey it's your car do you want with it but the original question posted was "Why does everyone want to criticize a clone so much?" the answer is because it is a fake. Whether it's jewelry, art work, baseball cards etc, people don't like fakes.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I just think "fakes" is to harsh I think "modified with gto options" just like the factory did especially '64-'66 did is a better classification. Yes in a perfect world we would all have 40, 50, 60,000.00 to get a factory numbers matching gto but most don't, I certainly don't but many can scrape up 20-30,000.00. And so what if you do have a factory gto but not the correct motor or other parts or like the guy who's got wrecked now it's not like it came from the factory except for those couple of numbers on the vin tag. What about OMT taking his originally purchased '64 and turning into a race car, are people hating on him?...I guess not because it still has those couple of different numbers on the vin tag. Maybe this site is geared more towards number matching purists than modified hot rods and that's why the reactions idk, but I appreciate all of the old cars, most of today's cars all look the same and are boring and made mostly of plastic.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

pontrc said:


> X2 with Roger , most people can’t afford the real thing. Do what you want, but don’t misrepresent at sale.
> [/QUOTE
> OR CAR SHOW. There was a person who had a Gto clone...how do I know? He still had the tempest lights on it. But his paper placard said Gto. He took second after me and burned others. Too bad the judges could not tell the difference


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

Baaad65 said:


> I just think "fakes" is to harsh.


So, you're saying "fakes" is not "politically correct"?

Sorry, I don't do "PC".

Maybe when enough snowflakes become a blizzard I'll be forced to but I'll be putting up a good fight.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

That's not cool, he should do a better job making it a gto if that's what he's putting on the place card...lazy!


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

Hmmmm……...

To save my ass from criticism I'm going to plead the 5th, but this had 20,000 original miles at the time it was chopped. YES, it's a real GTO


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

NOS Only said:


> So, you're saying "fakes" is not "politically correct"?
> 
> Sorry, I don't do "PC".
> 
> Maybe when enough snowflakes become a blizzard I'll be forced to but I'll be putting up a good fight.


I didn't say PC, I said harsh..I don't like PC either but now a days you do have to play along. I guess fake might be a Catalina with GTO badging and trying to call it a GTO. Like Roger said it's not a fake car someone other than the guy on the line put the gto badging on it and as long as you disclose that to a buyer or don't change vin tags I have no problem showing it as a gto.


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## roger1 (Jun 25, 2020)

Agree a car show placard should have shown that it was a re-badged Tempest or Lemans no matter how well the conversion was done. But really, who cares about winning a trophy? I've never attended a car show that was judged with any real fair criteria. I couldn't care less whether I win one or not. I've thrown away every trophy I ever won except on which was a real unusual high quality best of show one I got. I go to a show for the socializing with other car enthusiasts and supporting a charity. 
If it's a concours show, judges would always check for if it's an authentic car. If the owner changed the numbers and did the converson without detection, then shame on him.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Hmmm. This has gotten a bit ugly but I think the OP had gotten a pretty good look at both sides. Bottom line is some guys really don't care and others do. 

Funny thing is what drew me to mine when I bought it was that it was still a LeMans and had not been cloned. I have no plans to convert it into a GTO but would probably have no choice if I ever nose into something. The front sheet metal and bumpers for a 70 LeMans are impossible to find. It took me a year to find a replacement for a broken front marker light. Even so, my car would fall into the "fake" category as well. It was born green over green and was a 350 car. Someone painted it red and swapped out the interior to black and installed a 400 out of a 1974 and it had a Saginaw 4 speed. I swapped out the trans to a Muncie out of a 69 Chevelle. I have a stroked 400 (461 from 1971) going back in (was installed a couple hours ago). I don't like the term fake personally. I call mine a mongrel.


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Guys I think we should be thankful we own them being a tempest, lemans or the great one. I know at cruise ins there not many of us out there. That to me is what makes these tin Indians so special ❤Show the love


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

NOS Only said:


> Hmmmm……...
> 
> To save my ass from criticism I'm going to plead the 5th, but this had 20,000 original miles at the time it was chopped. YES, it's a real GTO


Whoa that's over the top 👍


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

Baaad65 said:


> Whoa that's over the top 👍


Everything goes over that top.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

roger1 said:


> Agree a car show placard should have shown that it was a re-badged Tempest or Lemans no matter how well the conversion was done. But really, who cares about winning a trophy? I've never attended a car show that was judged with any real fair criteria. I couldn't care less whether I win one or not. I've thrown away every trophy I ever won except on which was a real unusual high quality best of show one I got. I go to a show for the socializing with other car enthusiasts and supporting a charity.
> If it's a concours show, judges would always check for if it's an authentic car. If the owner changed the numbers and did the converson without detection, then shame on him.


I think putting that on a place card would just confuse people as the average person doesn't know about anything their looking at anyhow and there's not enough room on the place card 😉 also unless your entry fee supports a charity why do you register for a show if you just throw out the trophy, just park and don't register. I'm thinking of doing that because you're right most of the shows are clicky, I was at two this weekend that I just shake my head at who got awards. My feeling is everyone no matter who you are would rather have a compliment than a criticism...would you rather hear you have a nice haircut, a nice looking house and a nice car or your haircut looks terrible your house is a dump and your cars a beater. Roger you are doing such a fantastic job on your car don't tell me it's all for you to sit in a lawn chair with the garage door closed admiring it, you will definitely show it off and get compliments and trophies which you will deserve and it will make you smile because you know all the hard work, money, frustration was a appreciated, otherwise you would build a beater ...they're much cheaper and easier to build you know 😉


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## roger1 (Jun 25, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> I think putting that on a place card would just confuse people as the average person doesn't know about anything their looking at anyhow and there's not enough room on the place card 😉 also unless your entry fee supports a charity why do you register for a show if you just throw out the trophy, just park and don't register. I'm thinking of doing that because you're right most of the shows are clicky, I was at two this weekend that I just shake my head at who got awards. My feeling is everyone no matter who you are would rather have a compliment than a criticism...would you rather hear you have a nice haircut, a nice looking house and a nice car or your haircut looks terrible your house is a dump and your cars a beater. Roger you are doing such a fantastic job on your car don't tell me it's all for you to sit in a lawn chair with the garage door closed admiring it, you will definitely show it off and get compliments and trophies which you will deserve and it will make you smile because you know all the hard work, money, frustration was a appreciated, otherwise you would build a beater ...they're much cheaper and easier to build you know 😉


I register when part of the money goes to charity. Yes, I want to show my car off. No question and I accept any trophy with a smile, shake hands and thank them like it means something just to be a team player. But I usually toss them after a few months or so. But I go to show off and share info and an opportunity to see other's cars. Not to win trophies. I really don't pay that much attention to them. I stay for the awards just to support the show


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## 65GTO1of1 (Jan 25, 2021)

People can justify all they want - but we are losing touch of the original question and the obvious answer. The original poster asked why are clones criticized so much. A very simple question. The answer is - because it is a fake. It's that simple.


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

They are an easy targets. People like to puff them selves up by putting things down. There are numberous reasons why someone would make a clone and only a few were to fool people. These cars are 50 plus. Things happen if I have a LeMans frame , Tempest drive train and GTO firewall and door frame its a GTO? Do I have a clone since the PO replaced the quarters and didnt put the gills back?

Some people will say your car is fake cause there is a non Pontiac washer some where on it. 

So is the GTO a tribute or a clone of what people like my Dad that were dropping big engines in "little" cars back in the the 50s?


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

NOS Only said:


> There is a woman out here who goes around strutting her stuff telling everybody she owns a 1965 GTO Convertible.
> 
> One day, she did it to me.
> 
> ...





NOS Only said:


> Stone cold but true.
> 
> Truth always hurts people's feelings but only those people who perpetuate the untrue.


In case some people missed the point


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

I was at a car show once and came upon a 1970 chevelle super sport convertible ls6 4speed at a car show. I wanted to ask for a build sheet...a build sheet may best sole way to prove your 70 ss. But I let the dead dog lie. I told my wife that all the stars would have to line up for this car to have all this, and on top of that DRIVE (I asked) this 200k irreplaceable car there. Inquiring minds want to see the build sheet lol.


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

RMTZ67 said:


> I was at a car show once and came upon a 1970 chevelle super sport convertible ls6 4speed at a car show. I wanted to ask for a build sheet...a build sheet may best sole way to prove your 70 ss. But I let the dead dog lie. I told my wife that all the stars would have to line up for this car to have all this, and on top of that DRIVE (I asked) this 200k irreplaceable car there. Inquiring minds want to see the build sheet lol.


Every Chevy is an SS or a Z/28


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## slingshot (Aug 22, 2021)

Well... might as well wade into this one with my 1st post. I could care less whether a 50+ year old car that is done right and nice is a "real GTO or a tribute GTO". It's the quality of the car that matters to me as long as someone is not trying to scam someone else. Doesn't mean the resale is the same... Years ago I took a stripper shortbed stepside 1972 Chevy pickup with a straight 6 and a 3 speed manual and used it as a basis for a frame off build. Did it right with a show quality paint and body job, 350 V8 and Turbo 350 automatic, put the Cheyenne Super interior, dash, body trim and moldings, grille, bumpers, etc on it. I wasn't trying to fool anyone just built it the way I wanted. I enjoyed it thoroughly and sold it a few years later. The guy I sold it to tried to represent it as an original truck. That is wrong. Period. Just be honest about what it is--real car people will enjoy it and appreciate it.


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## coyote595 (Dec 4, 2019)

I do not have a problem with Clones/Tributes/Replicas either. As long as they are not falsely represented as being authentic. The thing is, GTOs, while very nice looking and desireable cars, are not really that unique. They are a Tempest design, built with some specific parts to create the GTO model. Generally, same body, frame, suspension design, etc. It is not rare like a Cobra or GT40. For example, in 1969, there were about 72000 GTOs manufactured and only about 27000 Tempests. I appreciate the GTO for the revolution it started, and I have loved them since childhood, but it is certainly not a car to get snobby about. My car is not a GTO. It is a Custom S with parts from various models to create a look that appeals to me. I have not badged it as a GTO. In fact, it has no badges at all, other than the original Custom S dash emblem and "PONTIAC" in the grille. When somebody asks me what it is, I usually just say it is a LeMans because 95% of people would have no clue about what a Custom S is, since it was a one year model. That is unless I am feeling talkative, and then I might go through the effort of explaining what a Custom S is.


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## Banjos (May 10, 2021)

In a weird way, I like that there are so many cloned LeMans (or LeManses?) out there. It just makes my "el natural" '65 LeMans stand out more at a car-cruise/show. There is always a real GTO, a few clones... errr... tributes and then my one LeMans. 

I do have to be honest (even if slightly biased), I always liked the LeMans badging (at least in '65) better than the GTO, such as the full Pontiac in the grill, the separate letters on the rear quarter panel... and of course, the checkered flag in the correct shape!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Banjos said:


> In a weird way, I like that there are so many cloned LeMans (or LeManses?) out there. It just makes my "el natural" '65 LeMans stand out more at a car-cruise/show. There is always a real GTO, a few clones... errr... tributes and then my one LeMans.
> 
> I do have to be honest (even if slightly biased), I always liked the LeMans badging (at least in '65) better than the GTO, such as the full Pontiac in the grill, the separate letters on the rear quarter panel... and of course, the checkered flag in the correct shape!
> View attachment 145706
> ...


Is that Reef Turquoise because it looks lighter like my '65 that someone painted and I'm trying to find out what color they used, I bought Reef Turquoise touch up and it's much darker than my paint.


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

Were getting kind of subjective. I guess every pontiac is a GTO too.


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## Banjos (May 10, 2021)

Baaad65 said:


> Is that Reef Turquoise because it looks lighter like my '65 that someone painted and I'm trying to find out what color they used, I bought Reef Turquoise touch up and it's much darker than my paint.
> View attachment 145710


Originally, it was Palmetto Green (paint code H). When I had the car repainted 15 years ago in California, the shop kept calling it Seafoam Green, which is just the Buick equivalent. It does have a chameleon quality in that it changes between greenish blue to bluish green depending on the lighting and type of camera.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I have said this before, most of the car shows I go to, it seems that all GTO's, 1964-1966 ONLY came from the factory with tri-power and 4-speeds. 1967 and up GTO's all had Ram Air as a standard option and 4-speeds. 

The factory, something I learned at a Pontiac show, had a very little known decal option on the white only 1966 GTO's that would be resurrected in 1969. And, a few, not a big batch, had factory 421's installed as proof of the fender badging on this red 1966 - and I know its true because this car has the badging.

I think the real reason why people clone/tribute a Tempest/Lemans is for resale value, as even a clone/tribute if well done can pull close, if not more in some cases, as a true GTO. Another thing to consider is how available parts are to obtain from the aftermarket community in making your Tempest/Lemans a GTO. So if you are going to rebuild your Tempest/Lemans and you need parts anyway, why not go the GTO route which may in fact be easier to source parts for than a Tempset/Lemans.

Then there is simply the immediate identification factor a GTO has from a mile away by just looking at the hood. And it seems everyone knew some one who owned a GTO at some point in their lives. So GTO connects far better than Tempest/Lemans.

So I cannot blame those who do the clone/tribute, BUT I am not one of them. I prefer to keep the exterior flavor of the original model, be it Tempest/Lemans, and then go from there. Change the interior, the driveline, and paint it any color you want. MY only real P-me-off upset is this:

Take a true GTO, yank the Pontiac engine and stuff in a Chevy, Olds, Build,Hemi, Mopar, Ford, or other make engine under the hood and you have totally destroyed what the car is all about - even it it is a GTO clone/tribute.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Banjos said:


> Originally, it was Palmetto Green (paint code H). When I had the car repainted 15 years ago in California, the shop kept calling it Seafoam Green, which is just the Buick equivalent. It does have a chameleon quality in that it changes between greenish blue to bluish green depending on the lighting and type of camera.
> View attachment 145715
> View attachment 145716


I'm sorry is there a car in the picture on the left 😉....my apologizes if those are family members, that really looks close to my color so maybe that's what they used. My car was originally red and I don't remember seeing a Palmetto Green in the '65 color chart when I tried to get touch up paint.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Banjos said:


> Originally, it was Palmetto Green (paint code H). When I had the car repainted 15 years ago in California, the shop kept calling it Seafoam Green, which is just the Buick equivalent. It does have a chameleon quality in that it changes between greenish blue to bluish green depending on the lighting and type of camera.
> View attachment 145715
> View attachment 145716


You're right it does flip flop depending on the light, my last picture is under 5K florescent lamps....whatever color mine is I'm keeping it because I get more compliments on the color than anything else.


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## Banjos (May 10, 2021)

Baaad65 said:


> You're right it does flip flop depending on the light, my last picture is under 5K florescent lamps....whatever color mine is I'm keeping it because I get more compliments on the color than anything else.


I haven't looked lately for touch up paint, but here is a page that shows some of the Pontiac paint codes from '65. I also get a lot of comments about the color, usually along the lines of "my dad had a car that same color!"


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Baaad65 said:


> You're right it does flip flop depending on the light, my last picture is under 5K florescent lamps....whatever color mine is I'm keeping it because I get more compliments on the color than anything else.


Just ordered a 1oz bottle of Palmetto green so we'll see if that's right 😉


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Banjos said:


> I haven't looked lately for touch up paint, but here is a page that shows some of the Pontiac paint codes from '65. I also get a lot of comments about the color, usually along the lines of "my dad had a car that same color!"
> View attachment 145728


Yup I looked up the charts and guess I missed that color when I was looking for paint 4 years ago...thanks for the help and very nice car 👍


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## GT36Wagon (Aug 30, 2021)

Atarchus said:


> The problem with "clone" vs "not-clone" is that the line gets blurry. Like your instance, once parts are swapped what defines a clone? If you have a rust bucket GTO that uses a good Lemans as a donor, it becomes more of a LeMans than a GTO by the time you're done, even though it has a GTO vin. Add in the complication of people vin swapping and unless you have a air tight paper trail and history of owners you never really know what you're buying. I bought a clone because of this, at the end of the day the parts are the same. You're paying for 242 pedigree. The fake Rolex argument doesn't work because the fake Rolex isn't the same parts as a real Rolex. A restored clone GTO and real GTO will have the same parts, the same parts will be used to restore both and the frame/panels and everything else came from the same production facility to begin with. Why pay more for the same thing? Don't get me wrong, I understand that pedigree plays a role in value. A sword proven to be owned by George Washington will be worth a lot more than the exact same sword that wasn't owned by him. I'm just not wealthy enough or stupid enough to not care about the price difference, so I'm happy with all the parts and no pedigree.
> 
> When people ask if mine is a clone, how I answer usually depends on my mood and how long I want to talk. If I'm in a hurry or don't feel like talking, it's real. If I don't mind answering questions, it's a clone. I find it rude to ask so I don't mind giving them a bullshit answer. Maybe I'll ask them if that's their real hair or if his wifes boobs are real lol.
> 
> ...


I really like your point that the same Pontiac parts solves the fake Rolex comparison. I like the provenance sword analogy to increase value of verified GTO's. I want to throw another consideration into the ring. What about when PMD intentionally confused the GTO with the GT-37? The GT-37 could be considered the opposite of a clone. In order to get around high insurance costs for new GTO owners, PMD created something that was the same without the GTO name badge. The GTO cost more to insure (and higher sticker price) than a less expensive T-37. Instead of creating a huge option "package" like new cars today, PMD let people order all the GTO good stuff without the GTO name badge on a GT-37 and save sticker price and insurance, a poor man's GTO. 

If PMD had a reflective rally stripe with a 455 for a station wagon, it could have been a GT-36 (36 = wagon body style). So I created a 1 of 0 production GT-36 wagon that isn't a clone of anything. A couple of weeks ago I posted it over in Showcase.

I learned the value of the rare cars (GT-37's) the hard way back in the 1980's. I thought the GT-37 should be more valuable as it is considerably more "rare". Seems the rest of the world prefers pedigree/provenance vehicles. I am glad both can exist and to those who want to insist one is better than another, it's just their opinion.


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## Kelly Rowe (Feb 10, 2021)

GTO_Mike_T said:


> To be honest with you, the only time that a clone vs real GTO truely matters is when it comes time to sell the car, so I don’t get the nerve of people badmouthing someone else’s ride because that person prefers the styling of a GTO versus a LeMans or Tempest. After all, the GTO started as an option became its own model. Hell, I have seen LeManses that were ordered from the factory with almost every GTO option (except hideaways), including the GTO hood with tach. I even know a guy whose father ordered a Tempest with the endura bumper, GTO hood, and disc brakes. If you knew the right dealer, you could build a Tempest or LeMans with whatever options you wanted. Same options, same steel, different VIN.
> The main reason it irks me is what happened to my car. It started its life as a 69 GTO, but after an unfortunate incident with a tree the cab was smashed. I was able to find a guy selling a solid body from a 68 LeMans (only the body, no frame and no front end) and was able to put I back together. I was the only body in the area, that was even slightly affordable. So now my car has a ’69 front end, suspension, frame, interior, etc…, but with a 68 cab, dash, doors and trunk. The VIN got smashed when tee tree fell, and technically the VIN was for a 69, not a 68, so it wouldn’t have worked anyway. Now, technically it would be considered a 68 GTO clone with Ram Air, but was born a true 69 GTO. I guess technically it should be considered a 68/69 LeMans GTO hybrid. Now I must hear people badmouth my car because I rebuild my goat after an unfortunate accident. I don’t plan on ever selling my car, so who cars if the VIN says 242 or not if I am not trying to deceive people to get more money out of them? It is my car after all, and styled the way I wanted and could afford, so who has the right to tell me I am wrong?





PontiacJim said:


> First, why didn't you go to the DMV and get a VIN from them to document your car using your registration and the numbers on the frame?
> 
> I get the '68 body, but you also used the '68 doors with the vent windows, right? '68 has different tail lights, rear bumper, and side marker lights, right?
> 
> ...


Have a 65 Le Mans ragtop that somebody put GTO badging on. Reversing that back to Le Mans in the rebuild.


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## Dave 68 (Nov 18, 2018)

GTO_Mike_T said:


> To be honest with you, the only time that a clone vs real GTO truely matters is when it comes time to sell the car, so I don’t get the nerve of people badmouthing someone else’s ride because that person prefers the styling of a GTO versus a LeMans or Tempest. After all, the GTO started as an option became its own model. Hell, I have seen LeManses that were ordered from the factory with almost every GTO option (except hideaways), including the GTO hood with tach. I even know a guy whose father ordered a Tempest with the endura bumper, GTO hood, and disc brakes. If you knew the right dealer, you could build a Tempest or LeMans with whatever options you wanted. Same options, same steel, different VIN.
> The main reason it irks me is what happened to my car. It started its life as a 69 GTO, but after an unfortunate incident with a tree the cab was smashed. I was able to find a guy selling a solid body from a 68 LeMans (only the body, no frame and no front end) and was able to put I back together. I was the only body in the area, that was even slightly affordable. So now my car has a ’69 front end, suspension, frame, interior, etc…, but with a 68 cab, dash, doors and trunk. The VIN got smashed when tee tree fell, and technically the VIN was for a 69, not a 68, so it wouldn’t have worked anyway. Now, technically it would be considered a 68 GTO clone with Ram Air, but was born a true 69 GTO. I guess technically it should be considered a 68/69 LeMans GTO hybrid. Now I must hear people badmouth my car because I rebuild my goat after an unfortunate accident. I don’t plan on ever selling my car, so who cars if the VIN says 242 or not if I am not trying to deceive people to get more money out of them? It is my car after all, and styled the way I wanted and could afford, so who has the right to tell me I am wrong?


My 68 Lemans has an authentic 68 GTO hood
somebody gave me (they were rebuilding their GTO and had a donor car for extra parts). I want to put a wing on the trunk too, only because it looks nice. All Lemans badging will always remain. This is my car only, so I don't care what others think. Be proud of yours, you've earned it just from the hrs of work you've put into it.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Dave 68 said:


> My 68 Lemans has an authentic 68 GTO hood
> somebody gave me (they were rebuilding their GTO and had a donor car for extra parts). I want to put a wing on the trunk too, only because it looks nice. All Lemans badging will always remain. This is my car only, so I don't care what others think. Be proud of yours, you've earned it just from the hrs of work you've put into it.


I would have to have a GTO hood on my Lemans as well, but I am running without a hood. Nothing like looking down a GTO hood - or other hood scoops. I think the real issue comes in with the badging change and then promoting the car as a GTO due in part to the badging change as well as the sheet metal and/or interior changes. Keep all the Lemans/Tempest badging and add some of the GTO items isn't an issue in my book because then I know it is a born Lemans/Tempest and you "upgraded" a few items that would seem more like an option that should have been available on the Lemans/Tempest - and you are not misrepresenting the car as something it was not born as.


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## Boomstick (Sep 13, 2021)

here my take and a little history

in 1994 i bought a 68 400/4sp GTO ram air ii for $800. it was a rust bucket but she ran like a scalded ape. over the next 18 months or so i drove the wheels off that car, she went everywhere. now prior to my goat, i had other really cool cars. my first car was a 57 belair 2 door hardtop, 327/4spd. second was a 67 "duece" 350/350 with an offenhauser single four tunnel ram, next was my 68 riviera with the 430... ive also had a 68 convertible stingray 427/4pd, a 74 340 duster, 91 stealth twin turbo and others not so cool (my current DD is a 09 smart cabrio)

of all those cars, i miss the GTO the most. again i bought it in 94 and drove it for a year and a half give or take. the clutch went out and it got parked and i bought a new nissan truck because, according to my mother, i needed a "reliable" car. a few weeks later i was attacked in a bar parking lot by 6 guys, one of which worked me over with a base ball bat. put me in shock trauma icu for 9 weeks. when i got out there was a long road of rehab. in the meantime my 94 nissan PU was repossessed. my gto needed a clutch, one of my girlfriends busted out the windshield with a maglight when my other girlfriends visited me in the hospital  and i managed to lose the keys to it. i cried the day i sold the car to buy something i could drive since i only had $7.47 to my name after all the rehab was over, i couldnt fix the goat. to make matters worse i only got $500 for it and the guy that bought it parted it out and cut up the rest. i ended up buying a rusted out 68 f100 that would throw itself into reverse every time i would make a left hand turn it was so rusted out. i drove that POS for the next 18 months until i bought my 93 c1500 4.3 5spd short bed for $14,000 with $4500 down and a 24.9% interest rate. i always said one day i would buy another GTO when i had the extra money.

in the court trial for the guy with the bat, was ordered to pay $16,612.20 in restitution. of that money, i saw $25....

until last week...

unbeknownst to me, MD parole and probation had been collecting the money for the last 25 years but since i had moved, they didnt know where to send it. a few months ago, my father got as letter from a lady at P&P asking if he was related to me or knew me and got in contact with me, and last monday (9/6) i got a check for the 16k...

so i went looking for a 68-69 gto...

well... yeah... 16k is no where enough to get one that runs, drives, stops and turns... i started looking at other "cool" cars, but everything made these days look like something my mother would drive, especially the "new" gto... it looks like my mothers cobalt...

then on facebook i found a 69 lemans, listed as a 350/400, with a 10 year old frame off resto that had sat for a few years for $13,500. after talking to the seller and looking at her, shes now in my driveway and cost "me" 12k...this past monday (9/13) i drove her home...

she has a gto hood, tail lights and bezels, grill, valance, tach on the hood, slap shifter, some type of shift kit, edelbrock sp2 intake, dual feed holley 750, "pontiac" embossed aluminum valve covers, and GM front disc brake conversion. needless to say, i love this car as much as the previous owner did, if not more!!

my intention is to build a clone out of her, shes nearly there now, and frankly, i dont care what anyone says about her not being a "real gto"... shes not my old gto as much as im not the same person i was 25 years ago...I am ok with that and thats ALL that matters

if i can live with the fact that im not the 145 iq "memory like a steel trap" man that i used to be, i can live with the 373 vin... if YOU cant, thats your problem...


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Broomstick, I am with you. That Lemans/GTO will be awesome and the history behind it is a country song. You need to get a Nashville songwriter and collaborate on one with that!

who cares about the badging anyway,you could take it all off and make it smooth, or get some chrome letters and rename it ….“Born Again GTO”…..

Just have a blast with it, you have the right attitude!


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## donvito (Nov 10, 2018)

GTO_Mike_T said:


> To be honest with you, the only time that a clone vs real GTO truely matters is when it comes time to sell the car, so I don’t get the nerve of people badmouthing someone else’s ride because that person prefers the styling of a GTO versus a LeMans or Tempest. After all, the GTO started as an option became its own model. Hell, I have seen LeManses that were ordered from the factory with almost every GTO option (except hideaways), including the GTO hood with tach. I even know a guy whose father ordered a Tempest with the endura bumper, GTO hood, and disc brakes. If you knew the right dealer, you could build a Tempest or LeMans with whatever options you wanted. Same options, same steel, different VIN.
> The main reason it irks me is what happened to my car. It started its life as a 69 GTO, but after an unfortunate incident with a tree the cab was smashed. I was able to find a guy selling a solid body from a 68 LeMans (only the body, no frame and no front end) and was able to put I back together. I was the only body in the area, that was even slightly affordable. So now my car has a ’69 front end, suspension, frame, interior, etc…, but with a 68 cab, dash, doors and trunk. The VIN got smashed when tee tree fell, and technically the VIN was for a 69, not a 68, so it wouldn’t have worked anyway. Now, technically it would be considered a 68 GTO clone with Ram Air, but was born a true 69 GTO. I guess technically it should be considered a 68/69 LeMans GTO hybrid. Now I must hear people badmouth my car because I rebuild my goat after an unfortunate accident. I don’t plan on ever selling my car, so who cars if the VIN says 242 or not if I am not trying to deceive people to get more money out of them? It is my car after all, and styled the way I wanted and could afford, so who has the right to tell me I am wrong?


First..its your car to do with as you please. If you want to change it to a GTO or rebuild a wreck GTO, you have every right to. I had a 65 LeMans sedan that I actually made a GTO. Got a date code correct WT 389, Date code correct M20,including springs, suspension and everything you get when a GTO is ordered. Actually put everything in the car original GTO GM as if it came from the factory that way. My Placard at car shows said 65 LeMans GTO. When I sold it I advertised it as a LeMans, GTO option added. No secrets. So except for the VIN the car now was really a GTO in every sense of the name. And I got a price for the car close to what a GTO would cost. It was that nice. By the way, the car was sold in record time to guy that fell in love with the car. So to me the moral of the story is do what ever makes you happy without trying to deceive anyone. It will always be what it is.


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## Boomstick (Sep 13, 2021)

"GTO" is short for "Gran Turismo Omologato" translated to English as "Grand Touring Homologation". I.E. made from a bunch of non standard parts. So by definition wouldn't a GTO "clone" actually be a homologation of non standard parts, and by definition a "Gran Turismo Omologato" thereby meeting the true definition of GTO?


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Broomstick, I think we can all appreciate your story and the chance to fulfill your dream again. And happy to know you are well enough to be able to do it after the baseball bat incident. Good luck...we are here for you.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

RMTZ67 said:


> Broomstick, I think we can all appreciate your story and the chance to fulfill your dream again. And happy to know you are well enough to be able to do it after the baseball bat incident. Good luck...we are here for you.


I was thinking the price broomstick got his LeMans for was really good. Great buy if the car is solid!


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)




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## Boomstick (Sep 13, 2021)

Jared said:


> I was thinking the price broomstick got his LeMans for was really good. Great buy if the car is solid!


Not a spot on Bondo in her!!! I just got to figure out some electrical issues and put the carpet and door panels in.

Any idea why the front turn signals don't work but the back do? Or why the gas gauge drops to empty when the headlights are on, which incidentally are hi beam only, click off the hi beams and they all go out...


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I'm sorry you had to go through that horrible time...glad you're back, usually things like that lead to a ground issue, just an idea.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Banjos said:


> I haven't looked lately for touch up paint, but here is a page that shows some of the Pontiac paint codes from '65. I also get a lot of comments about the color, usually along the lines of "my dad had a car that same color!"
> View attachment 145728


Well I don't think my car is Palmetto either, seems to dark.


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

Baaad65 said:


> Well I don't think my car is Palmetto either, seems to dark.


You need to do a spray-out. Using a brush doesn't cut it as the metallics as well as the pigments just won't flow right. This results in the most perfectly matched formula looking like a totally different color.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

NOS Only said:


> You need to do a spray-out. Using a brush doesn't cut it as the metallics as well as the pigments just won't flow right. This results in the most perfectly matched formula looking like a totally different color.


I suppose but I just bought the cheapest size 16.00 for 1 oz. I did use a drop on a rocker chip and it still seems to dark, maybe I'll get a spray can of it thanks.


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

Baaad65 said:


> I suppose but I just bought the cheapest size 16.00 for 1 oz. I did use a drop on a rocker chip and it still seems to dark, maybe I'll get a spray can of it thanks.


I had my Dodge Magnum touched-up. I used the paint left over to brush-touch a couple of spots. Not even close.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Baaad65 said:


> I suppose but I just bought the cheapest size 16.00 for 1 oz. I did use a drop on a rocker chip and it still seems to dark, maybe I'll get a spray can of it thanks.





Baaad65 said:


> I suppose but I just bought the cheapest size 16.00 for 1 oz. I did use a drop on a rocker chip and it still seems to dark, maybe I'll get a spray can of it thanks.


You can always try this. You can get them at HD. Add a little lacquer thinner if you don't have reducer,


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## NOS Only (Nov 14, 2017)

RMTZ67 said:


> You can always try this. You can get them at HD. Add a little lacquer thinner if you don't have reducer,
> View attachment 146029


Those things work great! I use them all the time on small areas and trim.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Good idea, I have used them too, I still think it's not the color of my car when I tried a drop on a chip. Just was curious about what color I have but when I go for paint I'll just have them scan it, they want 40.00 for a spray can at this site.


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## Banjos (May 10, 2021)

I hate judging hues on a computer screen, especially with colors that change depending on the light, but that certainly looks a lot darker than the palmetto on my LeMans. While it was repainted 15 years or so ago, the underside of the trunk is the original H code paint. I'll take a picture of it tomorrow under sunlight instead of the crummy garage bulb.


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## jhowell3956 (12 mo ago)

My first post. I bought what I thought was a 64 GTO that turned out to be a clone. I was young and naive. I was not the one that misrepresented it or put the badges on it, Thankfully I paid under $5,000 for it. I replaced the 350 with a 455 tri-power and put an Olds Posi underneath. It came with a T-model four speed from a Trans Am I think. I was able to add things like disc breaks , corvette steering box and things that made it drive better than an original GTO with hurting my conscience. It has all the correct gauges including the in dash tach for the GTO. I still have that car and love to drive it. I have owned a couple of real GTOs since that I have sold because I just like this car better. When I was in a car club I told everyone it was a clone but not to blame me, I did not put the badges on it. I will never sell it as I promised it to my son. I promise you he 
will not trade this clone for a half dozen real GTOs when I am gone. At the end of the day my clone looks just like a GTO and I have the satisfaction of knowing with the modifications that it is faster , will stop better and go around a curve much better than your real GTO.


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