# Trying to wake the old girl from winter slumber...need a little help



## integrity6987 (May 10, 2017)

It's been a long winter and spring has not really arrived either...but hopefully we'll have good weather soon. I used the winter to find some parts and tinker with her.

A) took out cleaned up and rebuild windshield wiper/washer assy. Reinstalled - wipers still work, rebuild on washer pump did not help it. But was still fun to work on it...

B) took out the distributor and rebuilt to remove end-play and convert back to stock from po installed HEI.

The rebuild went just fine and I got it back in OK - properly oriented and engaging the oil pump.

Yesterday - using some parts from Ames tackled getting the vacuum lines all back to stock trim (pretty funky set-up for 68 manual - check out resto guide 2nd ed page 395); feel really good about that. Next did all the ignition circuit voltage tests. All checked out.

When it was time to finally start it - sprayed in a bunch of starting fluid, set the choke and turned her over. (got maybe 3mins total cranking time before cold battery with it trickle charge life support) it only coughed a couple times. every 15 seconds I turned the distributor a little CCW. Pretty sure first min was re-filling the carb with fuel.

I set the initial point dwell at .018 during the rebuild. I had a dwell meter hooked up during the cranking and needle bounced to 11 degrees. Battery gave out so had to pack it up for the day.

So after reading a bit more - realized I should have disconnected and plugged the vacuum lines to the distributor (yes the stock set up has 2 - like I said its funky); but seeking your collective wisdom, so please chime to answer these questions:


1- would leaving the vac lines connected wreck the timing so much it would not allow combustion?

2- what is the best method to set the points closer to 30 degrees (hopefully without removing the distrib) so it will start and I can dial it in.

3 - is there a way to know the timing before the dwell is correctly set? Did not try hooking up the timing light yet.

Both dwell and timing have to be "close enough" to get the engine started and idling. 
Hopefully, from that point, fine tuning will be straightforward.

I have learned a bunch this winter on this forum and looking forward to the "seat of the pants" timing method detailed by PJ.

Thanks in advance for your input-


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

What comes to mind to check your distributor timing would be to pull the coil wire out and put in its place a bolt of some kind that will make contact with the cap electrode. Also pull your number 1 spark plug wire out of the cap.

Then run a 12-volt hot wire off your battery to the bolt. This will energize the rotor. Use a light tester and insert into the number 1 terminal in the cap. Rotate the engine by hand until the test light comes on. This will tell you that the rotor is at number 1 and firing. Now take a look at you timing mark on the balancer. It should be where it needs to be in firing the number 1 cylinder.

If the timing mark does not line up on the balancer, but may be close, get the balancer at the degree you want (6 degrees?) and then rotate your distributor (either advance or retard) to get the test light to light up. That should be where you distributor want to be to fire number 1.

You may want to pull your valve cover to make sure your engine is on its compression stroke (both valves closed) and not 180 out.

I would not worry about the dwell setting until you get it running and then adjust it. And, initial timing gets set with vacuum line disconnected from distributor and plugged.


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## integrity6987 (May 10, 2017)

thx Pj - that is a novel approach to ensure I have the distributor installed correctly, although I was careful to put back the way it came out. Using the test light the current is able to "jump" the gap between the rotor and the distributor wire contact??

I also found this:
https://www.autozone.com/repairguid...YPE-IGNITION/Dwell-Angle/_/P-0900c152801c81c6

From above:
"The wider the point opening, the smaller the dwell. The smaller the gap, the larger the dwell. Adjusting the dwell by making the initial point gap setting with a feeler gauge is sufficient to get the car started but a finer adjustment should be made. A dwell meter is needed to check the adjustment."

Makes me think the gap I set was way too wide (dwell reading 11 degrees vs 30)- the coil may not be fully charging - unable to produce a "hot" spark.

I also found the gap correct point gap spec to be .016. I set to .018 during the rebuild. Going to work on that too.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Ok, the dwell check will work as well according to the article. I have never checked the dwell other than with the engine running. Pretty easy to dial in once you get the engine running using the "window" in the distributor cap and an allen wrench to adjust the points. I have a tool specifically used for this - looks like a screw driver but has a flexible spring like shank with an allen wrench end on it.

I thought the points were .016" on the gap. In a bind, it used to be possible to use a match book cover in an emergency (like replacing points roadside) as a feeler gauge to get you in the ball park and going again.

You may be right on jumping the gap with 12 volts -might not be enough voltage now that I think about it. Swear I have done this, but might have been dreaming. However, I did find a YouTube video that may help. It uses a 12-volt light tester. Clip the alligator clip side of the test light on to the negative side of the coil. The pointed end of the test light is grounded. Put your harmonic balancer mark where you want it on your scale(6 degrees BTDC). Then turn your key "On." You can now move your distributor advance or retard until the test light goes on. When it does, your distributor will be in its correct position.

The video is not the best, but you can get the idea. He moves the engine forward/backward to get the timing dialed in using the light. My question. He did not pull the coil wire, should you? I would feel a bit uneasy with my hands in the fan, key ON, and me rotating the engine. My luck it fires off - ouch! So I think I would pull the coil wire before sticking my hand/arms in near the fan and then see if the test light method still worked to dial in your number 1 spark plug to balancer timing mark.


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## integrity6987 (May 10, 2017)

Got her running today !

1) fully charged the battery
2) plugged vac advance lines
3) adjusted points a little closer to 30 degrees dwell
4) sprayed starting fluid, set choke
5) friend cranked it while I turned the distributor more ccw
- she started - (lost my helper)
6) got running dwell reading, shut off to adjust/repeat until 30 degrees
7) set base time to 9 degrees bdc - tighten hold down
8) re-connect vac lines
9) off fast idle sounds a nice low burbling we love to hear
10 goosing the throttle revs w/o bog --- so a good sign. 

did not yet check total advance (no load with the 100% stock set up).

ran out of time to continue

next issue before driving her and applying the PJ timing method: The Gen light was lit on the dash....but the car started several times.
Heading over to the electrical forum.

I wish you all good luck getting your cars dusted off.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Excellent, at least you know your swap to points was a success and it lives. Just have to dial it now. 

Your alternator, or voltage regulator may have given up on you. Check your wiring/plug-ins first, especially the voltage regulator on the firewall where you were working with the distributor. Had to call AAA when my '73 Fury died in home coming traffic just before an intersection/light. I hate when that happens. AAA came out about 1 1/2 hours later with a battery which I bought from them and they installed it just to get me home (about 20 miles). Turned out I had knocked off one of the alternator plug-in wires when I put new belts on, but as old as it was, it held form and shape and dangled just above the spade it was supposed to plug into, so it looked just like is was plugged in. Finally found it by touching wires and plugged the wire up and problem solved. Might not have really needed the battery or the embarrassment of screwing up traffic. Had a great conversation with police officer SGT Fred who stayed with me to protect my car from a rear-ender.

You can have the alt tested at most auto stores which is the easiest to test, then go from there. Could of course be the battery, so give that a check as well. :thumbsup:


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## integrity6987 (May 10, 2017)

Thanks for the replay. 
I used the thread search and plan to try these "on car" test first based on what I found on this awesome forum. Learned how the gen light circuit works, and more...

So will:
1) check fuses
2) check grounds (and the VR connections -- thx PJ -- I was bumping stuff in that area trying to get the vacuum lines connected)
3) check alt output V to be ~14.4
4) bat voltage
5) brittle wires / connections

One post said it happened to them only when e-brake was on?? (mine was...did not check it released)

i'll post back when I resolve it.

If alternator and battery and fuses are OK - then mostly like the VR. Ames G34 has a solid state for $29.


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## integrity6987 (May 10, 2017)

Everything above checked out. Looking for more advice and found this: 
http://www.gtoforum.com/f50/twitchy-voltage-98402/#post688434

Going to order the VR tomorrow.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Someone correct me if I am wrong. Which happens on occasion. Well maybe significantly more often than that. Growing up working on cars if you disconnect the positive cable while the car is running and it stays running your alternator is good. If it dies sitting overnight it's your vr. Assuming you have no short in your electrical system or your battery is bad.


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## integrity6987 (May 10, 2017)

*Still need help getting the GEN light to go out - with ignition swtch in run position*

The solid state VR came from Ames and I put it in today. 
GEN light now only stays on while the engine is running. It used to be on as soon as the key was on.

Battery and Alternator output is 14.2v. on car engine running.

Drove the car a few miles. If not for the light in the dash - all seemed Ok.

Took the Battery and Alternator out and to AutoZone and both checked out OK.

I learned from above link if forum how the GEN light is lit if voltages on ignition side and charge side are not equal.

Anybody know what voltages should be reading :
at the VR?
Coil (stock)?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

integrity6987 said:


> The solid state VR came from Ames and I put it in today.
> GEN light now only stays on while the engine is running. It used to be on as soon as the key was on.
> 
> Battery and Alternator output is 14.2v. on car engine running.
> ...



I went through a few of my books and none really were helpful as they showed wiring circuit diagrams and aimed more at Alt. testing. But, a search on the web produced this. It is for a Chevelle, but should work as it is GM. Gives yo a good description and a few things to test: voltage regulator wiring - Chevelle Tech


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## integrity6987 (May 10, 2017)

Thanks a ton PJ that is what I was hoping for. I also found an old Sun Tune manual with a bunch of diagnostic tests.

ANYONE ELSE - please share your experiences.

From the Chevelle forum -

Test of the regulator #4 brown wire. This is the one that comes from the GEN light. I think battery voltage goes into the light via the ignition switch. KOEO I got 10.19 V. I think this should be closer to 12V.

The output of the F (field) terminal of the VR was 12.03 with KOER so I think it is passing enough voltage to make everything work. The GEN light is on b/c the voltage across the light is not the same. ANYBODY please confirm.

The Sun Tune test I did were as follows:

Test 1 - Battery/Starter cranking system test
Set-up - disconnect the coil output to center distributor wire from distrib and ground it; test for voltage across battery terminals while cranking the engine. Good result is voltage greater than 9.5V
My Result - 10.9V

Test 2 - Alternator/Generator/Regulator - charging system test
Set-up - reconnect the coil to the distributor so the engine will run; read voltage across the battery while the engine is running at ~2000rpm. A good result is a voltage in 13.5- 15.5V range.
My Result - 14.22V

Test 3 - Alternator/Generator circuit test
Set-up - read the output of ALT/GEN going to the battery and the battery positive; run engine at ~2000rpm with all accessories turned on (I had the radio, blower fan on high, and headlights on). Good result is a voltage less than 0.6V (for GEN) or 0.2V (for ALT)
My Result - 0.17V

Test 4 - ALT/GEN ground test
Set-up - read voltage between the case of the alternator and the negative terminal of the battery. run the engine at ~2000rpm with all accessories turned on (I had the radio, blower fan on high, and headlights on); A good result is a reading less than 0.2V
My Result - 0V

Test 5 - External Voltage Regulator ground test
Set-up - read voltage between a VR mounting bolt and the negative terminal of the battery. run the engine at ~2000rpm with all accessories turned on (I had the radio, blower fan on high, and headlights on); A good result is a reading less than 0.2V
My Result - 0.02V

Test 6 - Ignition Cranking (bypass) circuit test
Set-up - Ground the (-) terminal of the ignition coil; read voltage between the (+) of the ignition coil and the positive on the battery. Crank the engine. a good result is a voltage less than 1.2V
*My Result - 1.8V (double checked and confirmed)*

According to the Sun Tune this makes the ignition switch suspect (other connections at the coil were not corroded or loose). This supports suspicion raised in the #4 brown wire test discussed first. The 50-year-old ignition switch might be wearing out.

Did one more test 

Test 7 - Ignition resistor circuit test
Set-up - Ground the (-) terminal of the ignition coil; read voltage between the (+) of the ignition coil and the positive on the battery. Place ignition in the ON/RUN. a good result is a voltage in the range of 4.5 - 7.5V
My Result - 5.7V

So the question is why is the GEN light on? - since it appears the engine will run normally, and it appears the alternator will keep the battery charged. Is the GEN LIGHT going bad? Causing extra voltage drop so I only get 10V at the VR brown wire when I should be seeing 12V. I hate buying parts that "might fix" the issue. Thre new VR was only $29 from Ames so not a big deal. The repo ignition switch does not work with the original lock (and door key) so would need that too. Need a spanner tool (OPG has this) to remove the bezel. So all in at $150; not the worst - but I don't feel absolutely confident even though 2 of the test make me suspect the ignition switch.

Hoping a few of you will read this post and offer your opinions on how you interpret these results or if you have other things I should try.

I might take out the driver seat (i'm too big to get under the dash otherwise) and at least try to disconnect/inspect/reconnect the plug to the ignition switch.

I also wish I could see the 3.2V from the Generator to the VR.....maybe I didn't understand the directions from the Chevelle forum from PJs post. Any help would be appreciated.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Did you replace/test the factory resistor wire after switching to points? I would not think this a problem if you have 12 volts at the coil during cranking. The resistor wire kicks in once you snap the key to the "Run" position. Then you want about 7 volts at the coil.

Try installing the old VR and do the checks to see if anything changes on your #4 wire reading as well as Test #6 . This would verify that the electronic VR is not defective if your checks are the same. 

*Finally *found more on that "Brown Wire" on the VR - "with regulator plug off, the Brown to ground is about 10.5 Volts. Reply: Is your battery still weak? With the regulator connector pulled you are measuring battery voltage from the ignition switch. This should be real close to what you would read on the horn relay or the switched ignition terminals. Close to 12 volts."

So you should be reading 12 volts at the Brown Wire. If not, then I would trace it to where it is connected under the dash. I recall that there have been a few times where the problem was at the firewall connection. Apparently there is grease applied in there that can become a problem over time and needs to be cleaned and doesn't allow for a good contact. If you pull the plug at the ignition switch and you still only get 10.5 volts, but know you have 12 volts going in on the battery side plug, then I would suspect the ignition switch has gone bad on you. They do wear out and I had to replace mine as it simply failed to start the car anymore.

Although a bit of a repeat, more from the Chevelle guys:

First thing to check, does the voltage regulator have a good solid ground connection (bolted tightly) to the radiator support? Early cars had voltage regulators mounted with rubber grommets, these units had a pigtail wire leading from the sheetmetal to the regulator's frame. This ground connection is very important. There should also be a pigtail from the battery's (-) terminal to the fender so the body and related sheetmetal have a good ground connection.

If that checks out okay....

With the car off, unplug the plug from the voltage regulator. There are 4 wires from left-to-right.

The first one should be blue. This is the FIELD wire that basically tells the alternator to turn on more or less depending on the electrical needs of the car.

The second wire should be white. This is the RELAY wire. If the alternator is healthy, this wire sends a signal to the voltage regulator to provide power to the alternator's FIELD wire and get everything working together.

The third wire should be either orange or red. This is a HOT wire connected to battery power at all times.

The fourth wire should be brown. This is the wire that feeds the dummy light in the dash. In a normal system when the car is running and the alternator and voltage regulator are working fine, this wire has 12 volts on it. Since the other side of the bulb has 12 volts from the dash wiring, this makes the light go out.


Check the #3 red/orange wire with your voltmeter. The black probe of your meter needs to go to a good clean ground for reference. Your red probe will obviously be doing the checking. You should see battery voltage on #3 .

IS THIS OKAY?


Turn the key to the ON position but DON'T start the vehicle. Check the voltage on the #4 brown wire. You should have roughly 12 volts.


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## integrity6987 (May 10, 2017)

PJ from above " Did you replace/test the factory resistor wire after switching to points? I would not think this a problem if you have 12 volts at the coil during cranking. The resistor wire kicks in once you snap the key to the "Run" position. Then you want about 7 volts at the coil."

Which coil terminal? Assume ( - ); when I put the dist in and got the car running I thought I did check that and got 8v and thought that would have been under voltage for the Pertronix and hotter coil the po had installed; and maybe contributed to lack of power above 5000rpm

I need to take a couple pictures of the set-up at the coil, and see if I can trace them through the junction to under dash.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

integrity6987 said:


> PJ from above " Did you replace/test the factory resistor wire after switching to points? I would not think this a problem if you have 12 volts at the coil during cranking. The resistor wire kicks in once you snap the key to the "Run" position. Then you want about 7 volts at the coil."
> 
> Which coil terminal? Assume ( - ); when I put the dist in and got the car running I thought I did check that and got 8v and thought that would have been under voltage for the Pertronix and hotter coil the po had installed; and maybe contributed to lack of power above 5000rpm
> 
> I need to take a couple pictures of the set-up at the coil, and see if I can trace them through the junction to under dash.


Some of the Pertronix conversions say it will run on the resistor wire - which may be what you had and you still have the wire intact. I did the conversion along with hotter coil on the former 400CI I had in my Lemans and added a 12volt wire on a toggle switch to the + side of the coil in addition to the resistor wire on the + side of the coil. The engine ran OK on the resistor wire, but when I flipped the toggle switch to provide 12volts, it ran noticeably better. When I forgot to flip it on, I could tell right away, it did not run as well. So yes, might be why your car seemed to lack power at the higher RPM's.


You should have 2 wires going to the Positive (+) side of the coil. The Negative (-) side of the coil is where the distributor wire will connect.

One of the wires that goes to the + side of the coil will be 12volts when you are cranking the engine only. This gives the coil 12volts for easier start up. THEN, when the ignition switch is snapped back to the "Run" position, the resistor wire takes over to give 7-9volts to the coil so that the points do not burn up in the distributor.

Looking at my '68 wiring diagram, there are 2 posts on the back of the ignition switch, IGN 1 and IGN 2. You will also see the post for the solenoid marked SOL. The SOL is just that, it is the purple wire that goes to the starter solenoid to activate it to kick in the starter. So when you turn the key to start the car, this is being energized to send the power signal to the starter and stops as soon as you release the key and it snaps back to the RUN position.

My diagram shows one wire each coming from the IGN 1 & IGN 2 post. These both go to the Positive (+) side of the coil. Inside the ignition switch is a set of contacts corresponding to each of the posts on the back side to which your plug fits onto. There is also a brass triangular shaped contact inside the switch that moves/rotates with the key to activate the switch's function when you turn the key. There is one post labelled BAT (battery - 12V). Power goes in on that post, makes contact with the brass triangle inside which also is the pivoting point for that brass triangle - so it is always energized, but makes no contact when the key is placed in the OFF position. When you turn your key to start your car, the triangle contacts (energized by 12volts from the BAT post) touch the IGN 1 & SOL contacts simultaneously - providing 12volts to the starter solenoid (purple wire) and 12volts to the coil to turn over and fire up the engine.

When you turn the key back to the RUN position after the engine "catches", IGN 1 & SOL are no longer energized by means of the brass triangle, but IGN 2 is now energized through the triangle's contacts and sends its 12volts coming off the BAT post through the resistor wire that goes to the coil, thus dropping your running voltage down to the 7-9volts so as not to burn up the points.

Now this is from my '68 which will be slightly different, but the same in principal, because in 1968 they added the "key buzzer" function to let you know the key was in the ignition. 1968 also used 3 different ignition switches and you have to get the correct one. My Lemans uses the GTO type ignition switch as opposed to the standard Lemans - which I learned later. I am told mine is a "Lemans Sport" with the options it has on it. Who knows, but the standard Lemans switch/posts did not match the harness plug I have - a GTO replacement did. :thumbsup:


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## integrity6987 (May 10, 2017)

PJ thanks again for your help and patience. I'll print this and try to get under the dash to check whats happening at the ignition switch and coil.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

integrity6987 said:


> PJ thanks again for your help and patience. I'll print this and try to get under the dash to check whats happening at the ignition switch and coil.


Ok. Do you have the wiring diagram for your '68? I have the one in my Chassis Manual, but I think several guys have made mention of one available on the internet that is color coded and laminated for ease of reading. The B & W in the shop manuals leave a little to be desired.

And, as noted, if you do get a new ignition key switch, make sure you get the correct one that matches the posts on the back of your present switch/wiring plug. As I recall, you can swap out the key tumblers and keep the key you have if that was what you wanted to stick with. :thumbsup:


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## integrity6987 (May 10, 2017)

PontiacJim said:


> Ok. Do you have the wiring diagram for your '68? I have the one in my Chassis Manual, but I think several guys have made mention of one available on the internet that is color-coded and laminated for ease of reading. The B & W in the shop manuals leave a little to be desired.
> 
> And, as noted, if you do get a new ignition key switch, make sure you get the correct one that matches the posts on the back of your present switch/wiring plug. As I recall, you can swap out the key tumblers and keep the key you have if that was what you wanted to stick with. :thumbsup:


I do have the b/w wiring diagram in the '68 service manual. I am ordering the color laminated one. I ordered the new ignition switch - but the ames repo unfortunately does not work with the oem lock-so do have to get a compatible one from them as well.

btw - I measure 10.15V with the key in the "on/run" position with and without the engine running.


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## integrity6987 (May 10, 2017)

I did also get an external resistor and will wire that into the circuit as well. I hope to get this all solved this coming weekend. PJ - Will double check I have taken all the advice provided. So with this final shotgun approach may not be able to nail down what finally solves the issue. Going to start with the ignition switch as I suspect some internal short causing the higher voltage at the coil.


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## integrity6987 (May 10, 2017)

Installed new ignition switch from Ames. (old one works when tested at the bench) and GEN light still on when the engine is running.

kinda stuck...

I also got the laminated color electrical schematic. This is all on one sheet and much easier to read. Picture below.

One part of it related to the GEN light in the circuit is hard (for me) to understand. 
One side of the GEN is listed as #7 - go thru the junction block at the firewall to the voltage regulator. But don't see what is the "other side" of the GEN light. 

Next weekend will try to recruit a helper to trace some of the stuff and inspect the junction from PJs post #13- ["I recall that there have been a few times where the problem was at the firewall connection. Apparently, there is grease applied in there that can become a problem over time and needs to be cleaned and doesn't allow for a good contact. "]

Under the dash, the wiring looks generally unmolested. in the engine compartment, the wires to the (+) coil do come straight out of the harness.

As in post # 12 everything is basically the same...Plan to drive it some this week if the weather is dry. MAYBE vibration will induce a "cure".


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