# Was running, now won't start, help me troubleshoot?



## KBrown (Apr 7, 2020)

1965 389 with Carter 4bbl. I've had the car half a year, drove it many times and although it took sometimes two tries, it always started.
Two drives ago it was idling very high for about 5 minutes, when I pushed in the clutch and gave it more throttle, it would calm back down to idle. 
Last drive it struggled to start but then did.
Now it won't even start. I read that sometimes the fuel evaporates in the bowls, so I filled them with a squirt bottle. Over-filled I guess as fuel came out the accelerator piston. One last try and it popped once but wouldn't completely run. After that, it doesn't even sound like there's spark.

I put the timing light on all 8 wires, all 8 are getting spark.
I debugged a few other things things and convinced myself the carb was filthy enough that it was worth a rebuild, it's cheap and easy enough. I've now rebuilt the carb and reinstalled it, ensured the linkages and choke, etc are all functioning correctly. Squirted more fuel into the bowls, pulled the throttle and the squirters squirted fuel as they should. All appears fine.

It still won't start. Again, no spark. Now I know there's fuel in the intake (without a bore scope I can't see in the cylinders) so I figure it has to be either something between the intake and cylinders or the plugs or something else I'm missing.

Thoughts? The plugs are pretty fouled but that could simply be from the rough starts recently and dirty carb. New plugs will happen this weekend just in case. But I doubt all 8 would quit working at the same time.


Other thoughts? What am I missing?
Next up:

New plugs
New wires
Compression test (I have this tool)
Bore scope (I will have to rent one)
Different battery... This one's nearly new but I may have killed it trying to start it so much.


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

I would definitely change plugs, make sure volts are good at coil, could be burned points. Not running HEI right? By the way you described the first symptom sounded like the choke was stuck.And make sure the distributor did not move or is loose to affect the timing


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## KBrown (Apr 7, 2020)

Yes, the choke is a prime concern for me, it's the old coil spring, it was quite rusty inside. I cleaned it as best I could.
No HEI, had later model distributor and coil. Hadn't thought about timing being off by distributor moving. Will check that. Although if only slightly off I'd expect some sparking of unused fuel even if it wouldn't start.

Thanks for the hints, will try those.

Also reading up on crank-case pressure, my dip stick was loose the last two time I opened the hood, not sure if it's just worn out or I have too much pressure and that led to a blown gasket.


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Lemans guy could help you with pvc problem Wagner system I believe along with a good breather on the valve cover


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

You will have to look at the PCV later as Pontic mentioned, but that is not likely your current no start problem.

pontrc is right onthe first step, his analysis is always solid,...the plugs as described seem so oil and fuel fouled that new ones are in order, set gap at .35...I like to torque my plugs at 25 ft lbs, but snug is good,...not too loose or too tight.

On a cold start with spark and fuel present (and compression since it ran very recently)

the main problems are likely choke or timing. Both must be set correctly. The choke can be set without the car running and fine tuned later. If your choke is shot get a new one or clean up the old one.

loosen the three cap screws and turn the choke flap until it just touches the front of the carb horn gently touches, then back off about 1/16th of an inch. Tighten the screws.

you can find more detailed setting descriptions, with the factory manual, and you may need to bend a choke arm or reset a an adjuster. But get that right first.

them with battery at full charge and choke fixed, fuel in the carb bowls use this procedure engine is cold.

sit in the car and push the gas pedal three half pumps and one final to the floor pump to set the choke. Then the crucial part, wait One minute and do nothing, I know it is hard.

But instant cranking just sucks air into the cylinders, and air won’t start. By waiting a minute the gas vapors which are heavier than air will slowly float down and sit over the valves then when you crank you will be ingesting a mixture that will fire.

do not pump the pedal as you crank, if it seems like it wants to start, wait 15 seconds and retry.

then check your base timing setting. Good luck let us know how you do!


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

oh and I forgot to mention, one reason it may have Acted as you described

“idled too high”"..... and then you pushed down the clutch and.....”Gave it more throttle, it would calm back down and idle correctly”

This is likely a malfunction of the choke mechanism, “Fast Idle Cam”, the fast idle cam holds the throttle plate slightly open to get a faster idle when cold,...when you let it idle fast for a minute on a cold start then you “Kick it down“with your foot on the pedal, and normal hot idle speed is resumed.

since you said your choke was a mess, liekely this was stuck and caused a high idle, when you gave it throttle in effect you “Kicked it down”...and released the fast idle cam which is under the choke.

at least that is my story, ......with the current facts at hand......


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## KBrown (Apr 7, 2020)

Lemans guy said:


> the plugs as described seem so oil and fuel fouled that new ones are in order, set gap at .35...I like to torque my plugs at 25 ft lbs, but snug is good,...not too loose or too tight.
> 
> the main problems are likely choke or timing. Both must be set correctly. The choke can be set without the car running and fine tuned later. If your choke is shot get a new one or clean up the old one.
> loosen the three cap screws and turn the choke flap until it just touches the front of the carb horn gently touches, then back off about 1/16th of an inch. Tighten the screws.
> ...


Thank you so much. Will be getting new plugs today and will test the coil also. Then will do all of the above and let you know.


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## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

It did sound like a carb issue...at first, but you have no spark. Is it a points distributor? If you can't recall the last time you changed/cleaned/gapped them, I would go directly there and verify the situation with them. Sounds like you don't know the history of the rest of the secondary ignition? If so, plugs, cap, rotor and wires are in order. As I said, no matter what the condition of those items are, the points control it all. Check 'em.


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## KBrown (Apr 7, 2020)

Mine'sa66 said:


> It did sound like a carb issue...at first, but you have no spark. Is it a points distributor? If you can't recall the last time you changed/cleaned/gapped them, I would go directly there and verify the situation with them. Sounds like you don't know the history of the rest of the secondary ignition? If so, plugs, cap, rotor and wires are in order. As I said, no matter what the condition of those items are, the points control it all. Check 'em.


Thanks, I've been debating going through the electrical system one by one starting with the plugs, vs just replacing plugs, wires, coil, etc...

It is not a points distributor. I don't think, hmm. I didn't actually take the cap off... Hmm.


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## KBrown (Apr 7, 2020)

No, wait I remember... Someone's messed with the wiring, the old four wires for the original points system are cut. It's not a points system.

FWIW, it leaks pretty good both front and back, also the transmission leaks a little. So in the near-term the whole thing is coming out and getting rebuilt. I just planned on enjoying it during the summer first.

So I think a) spark plugs b) coil c) distributor ... if it goes much further than that, push the eject button, rebuild the engine and replace all of the above.

Someone's messed with the wiring a lot, I intend to replace the entire harness from the firewall forward when the engine is out.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Manually tie the choke slightly open....Take the distributor cap off. Like Mine'sa66 said it all starts there. verify if they are points or not. If they are buy a dwell meter off of craigslist. I don't think it has to be running, just crank it to set them to 32 degrees, or set them with a gauge. Then buy a spark/sparkplug wire tester. If it got spark and gas it should start. If not possibly a bad coil or loose wire at the coil or points. if it got spark and gas an dont start get a piston stop and find top dead center. videos on you tube.... then set it to 6/8 degrees. If it dont start then.... well thats another story.


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

KB post a pic of the distributor and coil arrangement and then pic with the cap off , maybe we can see what you are dealing with. I hate to see a hacked up harness,when you plan to do the engine harness make sure the dash harness is in good shape


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Let’s go back to the beginning...
1) the car was running recently, for the last half year
2) you put a timing light on each plug and each plug wire showed spark
3) your plugs are oil and fuel fouled
4) your choke is messed up
5) or idled fast then kicked down to correct idle when you hit the throttle
and now it will not start......you are saying “no spark” it seems when you mean “no start”...

It now cranks but does not start.....

like the gang said verify compression, (it was running recently) fuel, spark.....battery at full charge,...replace or clean and regal plugs and set the choke correctly and retry...

you are going to have to do all the things the gang said, they are all spot on..you have a lot of work to do.....but for now just see if it will start.....

Good luck and let us know how you do!


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## KBrown (Apr 7, 2020)

> you are saying “no spark” it seems when you mean “no start”... <


Both. I'm not hearing any of the cylinders firing, it's as if there's no spark to any cylinder even though the timing light indicates the wires each get pulses.

From this thread I'm guessing bad choke and/or dirty carb created fouled plugs that prevented spark and may have even damaged the coil by overloading it.

Pictures... 
Rotor...









Inside distributor cap (the moisture is me sweating)...









Distributor patent #









Distributor









Coil...











I was going to get to more this AM but the wife wanted a Home Depot run. It was too crowded, no distancing, half the people w/o masks... so bailed. Went to get coffee, line too long. Came home and she wanted to mow so went to put more diesel in the tractor only to discover there was gas in the diesel cans. So then I spent the next two hours putting the tractor on the lift and draining the tank so we can go get diesel instead. Took a break long enough to take these pictures, then after lunch I'll put the tractor back together, send her to get diesel in the cans and back to the GTO. 
Oh and if she goes to Costco to get diesel, she can get me a new battery, I think I killed this one. My charger never goes green. It gets to 12.8v but as soon as I crank it, it dies in 5 seconds. Sucks as the battery is 6 months old, too. One of the first things I replaced.


Thanks again everyone, will update the thread when I find out more. 

Later today, I'll ohm-test the coil, put the distributor and wires all back, replace the plugs, swap out the battery and try the starting technique listed above.


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## KBrown (Apr 7, 2020)

pontrc said:


> KB post a pic of the distributor and coil arrangement and then pic with the cap off , maybe we can see what you are dealing with. I hate to see a hacked up harness,when you plan to do the engine harness make sure the dash harness is in good shape


I'm confident the dash harness is messed with, too. And yes, I'll get to all of that, too. Dash background light and gas gauge both don't work. There are 2 screws missing from the bezel so someone's clearly had it out and didn't get it back completely. Headlights, turnsignals, ignition, tach (after-market) and speedometer all work, that's enough to drive it for the summer.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Cant quite tell, but I only see 1 power wire going to the + side of the coil (green wire?). What I don't see is the second wire, the factory resistance wire. If you have just the 12Volts going to the coil, and not the 7-8Volt resistor wire............then you have probably fried your points/condensor.

You must have the resistance wire to run points.........and you can damage the coil if it does not have the correct resistance built in to match 12Volts continuously. So the coil may also be bad.


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## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> Cant quite tell, but I only see 1 power wire going to the + side of the coil (green wire?). What I don't see is the second wire, the factory resistance wire. If you have just the 12Volts going to the coil, and not the 7-8Volt resistor wire............then you have probably fried your points/condensor.
> 
> You must have the resistance wire to run points.........and you can damage the coil if it does not have the correct resistance built in to match 12Volts continuously. So the coil may also be bad.


This^^^^
Forget all the other stuff (for now). Fix your points/condenser/coil.
Did you leave the battery in the car during the off season? Sitting discharged is what ruins batteries. Your battery is likely sulfated. You might be able to salvage it if you have a charger that has a desulfation mode, but likely its a gonner.
There's no reason any battery shouldn't last at least a decade if cared for properly. It needs to be >95% charged ALL the time.


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

One thing for sure KB you got a lot of big guns in here helping you out


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Yeah got lots of stuff to fix,.....and as PJ and mine pointed out, no ballast resistor wire may have fried your points....that is the sole purpose of it’s existence........

you will get it, stay with it....it will not run with bad points, coil condenser.....


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## KBrown (Apr 7, 2020)

Here's what I did: Replaced the plugs with new ones, all gapped at 0.35. They came 0.38, so I lowered them. Re-attached the distributor cap. Re-attached all the wires. 

Everything back to how it was before... Did the starting procedure... 3.5 pumps. Then 1 pump and hold for 1 minute. Then turn the key (with the gas still wide open I presumed)... Nothing. Turned and turned, nothing tried to fire.

So, suspecting the wires have semi-bad connections of the coil, decided to pull the coil. Pictures first...

Still in the car. 
Green wires goes to tach. Black wire under it goes to the distributor. Black/red wire on positive goes into wiring harness right behind it. And the bracket it's in is grounded to the firewall.








It was really hard for me to get the ohm-meter to work in the car, so pulled it out.

I'm pretty sure the coil is kaput. Not sure if the fouled plugs killed it or it was just going out, but it's definitely not right as far as I know about it.








+ to - terminals is 2.1 kilohms if I'm reading the meter right at the bottom. 
Either terminal to output is 0.02 microhms. 








Again, I'm not 100% sure, I'm good with mechanical, not so much electrical. 

Unless someone has a better suggestion, I think I'm going to:

Replace the coil. Clean up the connectors to make sure they have good connections.
Replace all the wires. I think the one from coil to distributor isn't fitting well. Wires are cheap.
Spark plugs already replaced.
Take the battery in to test/charge/replace.
Question: Should I replace the distributor, too? It looks pretty rusted inside and I'm thinking of replacing everything from coil to spark plugs. I have more money than brains... I mean time...

Finally, since the above will take a bit to come in, I may take the carb to a professional rebuilder. I think I did ok, but would be nice to have someone with a test bench verify it.



Thank you so much everyone. As frustrating as it is to have a nice day and not be out driving, I do love puzzles and when it runs it's going to be so glorious.


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## KBrown (Apr 7, 2020)

Mine'sa66 said:


> Did you leave the battery in the car during the off season?


No. The battery is from Feb 2020, the one in the car when I got it (Jan 2020) was 9 years old. When I was trying to get it started earlier and messing with wires and went and got plugs, I left the key in the "on" position. That's what drained the battery, it was that way 48 hours. I have a float/trickle charger but not a "real" charger, so will take it in to see what they can do.



> Cant quite tell, but I only see 1 power wire going to the + side of the coil (green wire?). What I don't see is the second wire, the factory resistance wire. If you have just the 12Volts going to the coil, and not the 7-8Volt resistor wire............then you have probably fried your points/condensor.


This is interesting... does anyone have a picture of what it should look like? 

There are two wires on the - side. The green wire (tach) and the black wire (distributor). Could the black wire going to the distributor be going to a resistor? 
There is one wire on the + side. It's red and black and goes into the harness.

I see no resistor but I'm having a hard time finding pictures of what it should look like.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Yes you can buy a rebuilt Pontiac dist for about $75, comes with new points and condenser, just add new cap and rotor. Agree to replace the coil. But I would look down along the firewall and see if a wire is laying there unhooked, it may have a light brown fiber looking cover.

that is the ballast wire and should also be hooked to the coil positive. When you crank the key, one wire with full 12 volts will provide that to coil to start. Once you let the key go from crank it switches to the other wire,...ballast wire...which reduces the voltages to about 9 volts to drive with so points do not burn up.

if you cannot find the wire you can easily add a ballast on the firewall, butyou have to have the right wires going into the firewall fuse box.


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## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

KBrown said:


> No. The battery is from Feb 2020, the one in the car when I got it (Jan 2020) was 9 years old. When I was trying to get it started earlier and messing with wires and went and got plugs, I left the key in the "on" position. That's what drained the battery, it was that way 48 hours. I have a float/trickle charger but not a "real" charger, so will take it in to see what they can do.
> 
> 
> This is interesting... does anyone have a picture of what it should look like?
> ...


You are correct, you'll need a more powerful charger to get that battery "up off the floor". Your trickle charger is just getting a surface charge in the battery. It'll shut the charger off, and you'll get a few seconds of a couple hundred cranking amps, then you're done. Don't delay. Every minute that battery sits discharged the dissolved lead is bonding with the sulfur from the electrolyte creating lead sulfate, which will not be able to be deposited back onto the plates.
That coil needs to go. Also agree with replacing all the secondary ignition components, but you're missing the ones that are probably your issue...the points and the condenser. 
If you can get a whole rebuilt distro for $75 as Lemans guy mentioned, that might be a good move. There are bearings in there that can wear out along with other stuff. Pulling a distro out of a running engine and dropping a new one back in is not hard. I know, it's not really "running" but all the pieces are in the correct place, so all you need to do is put it back just as it came out


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## KBrown (Apr 7, 2020)

Lemans guy said:


> Yes you can buy a rebuilt Pontiac dist for about $75, comes with new points and condenser, just add new cap and rotor.


Where? I see Ames has one for $200 w/o cap/rotor and it's marked remanufactured. 



Lemans guy said:


> Agree to replace the coil. But I would look down along the firewall and see if a wire is laying there unhooked, it may have a light brown fiber looking cover.


This is all there is...
Red circle top left is where the ground strap from coil bracket went. Clearly corrosion. I'll clean that up.
Red circle right middle went to the + side of the coil and goes into the harness
Red circle bottom center went to the - side and goes into the distributor












Lemans guy said:


> ...that is the ballast wire and should also be hooked to the coil positive.
> if you cannot find the wire you can easily add a ballast on the firewall, but you have to have the right wires going into the firewall fuse box.


So here are a couple of other interesting pictures... 
First, there's a black wire with red stripe coming out of the harness the same place the wire going to the coil comes from.








Any ideas what that could have been for? 

Because halfway between here and the other end of the harness by the brake booster is this...








Is the top/left possibly the ballast?

Then... what are those fire wires they cut supposed to do?
Finally, any thoughts on what the spliced wires are? It appears to be a loop-back of some sort, all wires are solid black, all come from the right side of the car, come out the harness, splice and go back into the harness towards the right side of the car.

If the colors of the wires matched, I would've thought those four cut wires went to the four spliced wires.


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## KBrown (Apr 7, 2020)

Mine'sa66 said:


> Pulling a distro out of a running engine and dropping a new one back in is not hard. I know, it's not really "running" but all the pieces are in the correct place, so all you need to do is put it back just as it came out


Kinda ashamed to admit it, I raced stock cars for years. I've rebuilt a 350 and 400 Chevy engine completely multiple times. But I bought those cars working and didn't have to deal with all the passenger car electronics before. 

Net/net I've pulled and re-inserted distributors dozens of times. I did find one thing interesting, my 350/400 Chevy engines, #1 wire was pointing towards the left headlight. My cap on this 389 is pointing towards the left taillight. As long as it matches TDC it shouldn't matter but I found that interesting.


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## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

KBrown said:


> Where? I see Ames has one for $200 w/o cap/rotor and it's marked remanufactured.
> 
> 
> This is all there is...
> ...


The last picture is your voltage regulator. The little canister is another condenser like the one that's in your distributor. The work the same way, but are doing 2 different things.
Very interesting picture there...what do you have for an alternator? The wires that are all cut, should be keeping you from having a functioning charging system.
Guessing it now has an internally regulated alternator in it.


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## KBrown (Apr 7, 2020)

Mine'sa66 said:


> The last picture is your voltage regulator. The little canister is another condenser like the one that's in your distributor. The work the same way, but are doing 2 different things.
> Very interesting picture there...what do you have for an alternator? The wires that are all cut, should be keeping you from having a functioning charging system.
> Guessing it now has an internally regulated alternator in it.


I didn't get the whole alternator, but here's where two of the wires go.
I was wrong, they're not all black. They're all filthy. 
There are four. 
Blue with white stripe and Black with white stripe go to alternator. Here's how they attach to the alternator.








Here's the blue one with white stripe at the splice... 








And the black with white stripe spliced to brown.









It appears the blue/white wire is spliced with a black/yellow(?) wire. And the black/white wire is spliced with a brown wire.

I cannot find where the black/white or brown wires come out the other side.

I thought the only wires on the other end were a) + Distributor b) Oil pressure c) black/red that'd cut. 


Time to dig out the wiring diagram.


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## KBrown (Apr 7, 2020)

Summary... Ordered coil and new spark plug wires. Will install tomorrow and see if that makes it run. Goal #1 is get it back where it was. I still need to figure out where the missing ballast wire is. I'm starting to worry it was messed with inside the dash and my plans of dealing with the engine bay and under the dash separately may get blown up.

Decided to hold off on distributor although found where I can get one for 80 + 10 rotor and 20 cap. If the car starts/runs I'll leave well enough alone until I rebuild the engine this fall.


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## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

KBrown said:


> Summary... Ordered coil and new spark plug wires. Will install tomorrow and see if that makes it run. Goal #1 is get it back where it was. I still need to figure out where the missing ballast wire is. I'm starting to worry it was messed with inside the dash and my plans of dealing with the engine bay and under the dash separately may get blown up.
> 
> Decided to hold off on distributor although found where I can get one for 80 + 10 rotor and 20 cap. If the car starts/runs I'll leave well enough alone until I rebuild the engine this fall.


It may run with a new coil, your old one is bad. But, I think you are missing the 2 most important components...your points and your condenser. It will not run with with really bad points. It may run poorly with dirty or mis-gapped points. Same with the condenser, a bad one and you're going nowhere. Points and a condenser are cheap. The new points will need to be set. You will need a dwell meter. You can set the gap with a feeler gauge to get it close. At the very least get in there and see how burnt they are. Have someone turn the engine over while you watch to see if they open and close. If they do, at least open them up and clean them. Rub the contacts to make them clean. Folks would use a dollar bill to do it by the side of the road....


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## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

KBrown said:


> I didn't get the whole alternator, but here's where two of the wires go.
> I was wrong, they're not all black. They're all filthy.
> There are four.
> Blue with white stripe and Black with white stripe go to alternator. Here's how they attach to the alternator.
> ...


Well, when it's back to running, then you can move on to figuring what's going on here. A picture of the back of that alternator would be helpful. Ever check what the charging voltage was? After she's running, throw a voltmeter across your battery at 1500 or so RPM. Be interesting to see.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

This is where I would start,155.00.... or you may end up with a engine compartment fire.


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## integrity6987 (May 10, 2017)

From post #21


KBrown said:


> I left the key in the "on" position. That's what drained the battery, it was that way 48 hours.


This would have fried the old points.

Post #29


Mine'sa66 said:


> But, I think you are missing the 2 most important components...your points and your condenser. It will not run with with really bad points. It may run poorly with dirty or mis-gapped points. Same with the condenser, a bad one and you're going nowhere. Points and a condenser are cheap. The new points will need to be set. You will need a dwell meter. You can set the gap with a feeler gauge to get it close.


New points get gapped at .019" They will "wear in" and be about .016" = 30 degrees of dwell.

I bought this in April and really like it as an "all in one" device








Innova 5568 Innova Pro Timing Lights | Summit Racing


Free Shipping - Innova Pro Timing Lights with qualifying orders of $99. Shop Timing Lights at Summit Racing.




www.summitracing.com


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## KBrown (Apr 7, 2020)

integrity6987 said:


> This would have fried the old points.


This was after it wouldn't start. But point taken.

Got coil today. Ordered plugs but the box they gave me had 7. So I got my money back. 



integrity6987 said:


> I bought this in April and really like it as an "all in one" device


Will look at it. The one I have was my dad's. I think it's a Sears Craftsman from 1858 or something. (Ok, maybe 1980s...)


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

I still have that engine analysis from sears about 1976 I think, my step dad used it on his cutlass. Like Mine said definitely get the points, also can’t remember maybe Mine PJ or Lemans will know about a white lithium grease that goes on the distributor cam lobe? You mentioned rusty


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## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

pontrc said:


> I still have that engine analysis from sears about 1976 I think, my step dad used it on his cutlass. Like Mine said definitely get the points, also can’t remember maybe Mine PJ or Lemans will know about a white lithium grease that goes on the distributor cam lobe? You mentioned rusty


A new set of points should come with a little squeeze pack of suitable grease to lube the lobe with.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

KBrown, when you pull that engine/trans out to rebuild it I hope you don't wing it like you are with the wiring. OMG.

Why are you guessing on what wire is what and what splice goes into which feed? News flash, there are wiring diagrams available for your car. Yes, your car! LOL

Check out the Wallace site here and I see one for the 1965 Tempest. Keep in mind that your car is a Lemans with the GTO option, so in general, a Tempest, Lemans, & GTO will have a basic wiring set-up where a few things and/or accessories will show some differences. Click on this link: 


Wallace Racing - Wiring Diagrams



You may not be an electrician _YET_, but we are going to turn you into one.

You can also purchase a really nice color coded wiring diagram that is easy reading and laminated which may be even better if you plan on working/keeping the car for a long time. Check them out here - Pontiac - Le Mans - GTO & Tempest - ClassicCarWiring

Go through the list of suggested reading and tech books which may be of value to you in the future. Books, Pontiac Reading

Get it together, man. You are no longer dealing with the Chevy weenies. LOL We will put you straight..............just so you can smoke the Chevy buddies.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Yes, “Lubricam” is what you want for the points, Standard makes it just google it and get a small tube, Don’t put oil or grease on the points, like pontrc said a certain grease, this is silicon based....

check on a rebuilt Pontiac distributor, O’reilly’s or other auto parts, Cardone rebuilds them,...$75 to $125...points condenser come with it, you will need cap and rotor.

But if yours is in good shape, points, condenser and rotor and cap will do it.

Don William‘s song “Living on Tulsa Time”.....the opening lyrics are

“I left Oklahoma, Driving in a Pontiac
Just about to lose my mind
I was going on to Arizona, Maybe California
Where all he people live so fine
My baby said I was crazy, my momma called me lazy
I was gonna show em all this time,

Just wanted you to know he was not changing his life in a Chevy, or a Ford....


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## JamesGTO66 (Jun 16, 2020)

pontrc said:


> One thing for sure KB you got a lot of big guns in here helping you out


lol thats for sure. Gotta love our community


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Just now getting around to reading this thread, so I've probably missed/overlooked/misunderstood a lot. Sounds like the big unanswered question is still whether or not you're getting spark at the plugs. You might try pulling them all, reconnecting the wires, situating them so that they're grounded on something, then spinning it over in a darkened garage. You should be able to tell for sure then if they are all getting "juice". 

Sparking in free air is not the same as sparking under compression with fuel present, but that should give you some information about what is (or isn't) going on. Work 'backwards' from there depending on what you find out.

GeeTeeOh Guy on here used to say, "Start with the easy/cheap to check/verify stuff first, then progress to the not so easy/cheap."

Agree that's a nasty hack job on your wiring harnesses but unless some connection "just happened" to jar loose, I'm not sure that's a likely cause for what you experienced and how you experienced it. I'm just guessing that those cut wires at the voltage regulator are an indication that the car has been converted to an internally regulated alternator - but just guessing.

Use your meter to verify you've got voltage present across your points with them open, ignition on. 

Not sure how it was on '65's - but on later models there was only one wire going to the primary + side of the coil. The resistance wire was "upstream" from that wire. The 'start' position of the ignition switch fed into a segment of non-resistance wire that connected from the 'start' terminal on the ignition switch to "the other end" of the wire to the coil + terminal. The 'run' position of the switch fed power from a different terminal, through the resistor wire, and into that same wire going to the coil + side. 

Sort of like this:
Ignition Switch---Start-------non-resistance wire--------|
Ignition Switch---Run--------resistance wire-------------|---------------------------Coil +

You ought to be able to check that also with a meter. Disable the starter (disconnect the 'actuating' wire from the starter solenoid) and check voltage at the points (with them open) in both the start position and the run position. Don't disconnect the big battery positive cable terminals because (on my '69 at least) that's how power gets to the rest of the electrical system. It goes from the battery to the starter first, then out "everywhere else". Start voltage should be battery voltage, run voltage should be "noticeably less". That'll tell you if the resistor circuit is working like it's supposed to. That'll also verify you're getting power to the coil/points in both start and run positions.

Points condenser --- disconnect it for a test. If it's shorted then it's the same as if the points never open. The condenser is there to "compress" the spark that jumps between the contacts when they open and close which is supposed to help the points last longer. It also "stores" energy that gets "added" to the next spark event when the magnetic field in the coil primary windings collapses. It's not good to run without one because the arcing will eat up the contacts very quickly and also the spark from points alone won't be quite as strong, but disconnecting it just long enough to see if that's your problem won't hurt. It can also be tested with a meter:
HOW TO TEST A CONDENSER

Good luck,
Bear







Bear


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## Montreux (Mar 8, 2009)

It's the points. You need a tune-up. Points are wear items and require periodic replacement. A tune-up usually consists of points, plugs, and condenser. There have been reports of poor quality replacement condensers, so save the old one in case the new one is crap. 
The allen head screw in the "distributor" picture is part of the points assembly. The silver can in the "distributor patent" picture is the condenser. Any shop manual will give you instructions on how to set the points. If you have a dwell meter, that is the preferred method of setting the points. If not, a feeler gauge will get the job done.
After setting the points, set the timing.
Replacement of the cap and rotor is part of a major tuneup.


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## Montreux (Mar 8, 2009)

The black box on the firewall is the voltage regulator. The capacitor (can with one wire) is a noise filter. Go to MAD Electric to see wiring diagrams for updating alternators. Since your voltage regulator is out of the circuit, I assume you have a later, internally regulated alternator. You will also need the factory wiring diagram to figure out what the wires used to do!
If you have 12-13v at the battery, and voltage goes to 13-14v with the engine running, the alternator is working. Some internally regulated alternators will not charge if the battery voltage is too low, or won't kick in until RPM is above idle.


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## KBrown (Apr 7, 2020)

I've missed a bunch of replies, got busy with the day job so just tonight got back to the car.

Here's the totality of what I'd done.

Rebuilt the carburetor. Car didn't start.
Replaced the spark plugs. Car didn't start.
Replaced the coil and the spark plug wires. Car sputtered (hey, progress) and sounded like it wanted to start but didn't.
I was frustrated, went back through the whole sequence again, appears I over-filled one of the floats as fuel was dripping out the venturi... It didn't drip for long, maybe 30 seconds slowly, once it stopped I wanted about 30 minutes and then went through the whole sequence again... It started and died. Again, started and died. Repositioned the choke (it'd moved), started and ... *IT RAN!*

It's still a little rough, I'm sure the post-carb rebuild needs a bit of tweaking, but it ran and idled and reved to 3000+ without any issues. 


WOOHOO! The beast lives again... 


Thank you EVERYONE!

Now that I know it runs and everything works, will finish the job with new points/condensor/cap/rotor. I'll probably hold off changing the distributor since it feels tight (bearings seem good) and again, it runs. Then enjoy for the rest of the summer before doing the drivetrain rebuild in the fall.

Thank you again...





PontiacJim said:


> KBrown, when you pull that engine/trans out to rebuild it I hope you don't wing it like you are with the wiring. OMG.


Well, that started off strong. lol. I've rebuilt engines dozens of times, mechanical is easy. I can see it!



PontiacJim said:


> Why are you guessing on what wire is what and what splice goes into which feed? News flash, there are wiring diagrams available for your car. Yes, your car! LOL
> Check out the Wallace site here and I see one for the 1965 Tempest. Keep in mind that your car is a Lemans with the GTO option, so in general, a Tempest, Lemans, & GTO will have a basic wiring set-up where a few things and/or accessories will show some differences. Click on this link:
> 
> 
> Wallace Racing - Wiring Diagrams


Will do, thank you!



PontiacJim said:


> You may not be an electrician _YET_, but we are going to turn you into one.


Of that I have no doubt!



PontiacJim said:


> You can also purchase a really nice color coded wiring diagram that is easy reading and laminated which may be even better if you plan on working/keeping the car for a long time. Check them out here - Pontiac - Le Mans - GTO & Tempest - ClassicCarWiring


YES! I have the black and white one, it reminds me of those pictures where it looks like the lines/circles are moving but they aren't. 



PontiacJim said:


> Get it together, man. You are no longer dealing with the Chevy weenies. LOL We will put you straight..............just so you can smoke the Chevy buddies.


LOL. I do have a 55 Chevy pickup that is in the process of being reassembled. No engine or electric yet, so there's time.



Lemans guy said:


> Yes, “Lubricam” is what you want for the points, Standard makes it just google it and get a small tube, Don’t put oil or grease on the points, like pontrc said a certain grease, this is silicon based....
> Check on a rebuilt Pontiac distributor, O’reilly’s or other auto parts, Cardone rebuilds them,...$75 to $125...points condenser come with it, you will need cap and rotor.
> But if yours is in good shape, points, condenser and rotor and cap will do it.


Thank you much sir... I did find the O'reilly's dist/cap/rotor...



BearGFR said:


> GeeTeeOh Guy on here used to say, "Start with the easy/cheap to check/verify stuff first, then progress to the not so easy/cheap."


A smart man that one. Also a principle I follow often. 



PontiacJim said:


> Agree that's a nasty hack job on your wiring harnesses but unless some connection "just happened" to jar loose, I'm not sure that's a likely cause for what you experienced and how you experienced it. I'm just guessing that those cut wires at the voltage regulator are an indication that the car has been converted to an internally regulated alternator - but just guessing.


Yeah, that was my thinking, too. There are many more unanswered questions about the harness but I'm figuring them out one by one.



PontiacJim said:


> Not sure how it was on '65's - but on later models there was only one wire going to the primary + side of the coil. The resistance wire was "upstream" from that wire. The 'start' position of the ignition switch fed into a segment of non-resistance wire that connected from the 'start' terminal on the ignition switch to "the other end" of the wire to the coil + terminal. The 'run' position of the switch fed power from a different terminal, through the resistor wire, and into that same wire going to the coil + side.
> Sort of like this:
> Ignition Switch---Start-------non-resistance wire--------|
> Ignition Switch---Run--------resistance wire-------------|---------------------------Coil +


Turns out this was it. There is a ballast line when the car's running, the 12v and 9v lines converge inside the dash as far as I'm able to tell. My 65 Tempest book says the same, it only shows one wire going to the coil. So that mystery kind of solved... I still want to see the wire inside the dash, that's for the future.



Montreux said:


> It's the points. You need a tune-up. Points are wear items and require periodic replacement. A tune-up usually consists of points, plugs, and condenser. There have been reports of poor quality replacement condensers, so save the old one in case the new one is crap.
> The allen head screw in the "distributor" picture is part of the points assembly. The silver can in the "distributor patent" picture is the condenser. Any shop manual will give you instructions on how to set the points. If you have a dwell meter, that is the preferred method of setting the points. If not, a feeler gauge will get the job done.
> After setting the points, set the timing.
> Replacement of the cap and rotor is part of a major tuneup.


Thanks! Will do that next.


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## Roqetman (Aug 31, 2015)

Be sure to clean the rust out of the distributor. I know from experience that rust can interfer with the distributor advancing properly. It may start and run at idle but on the road it will not run good.


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## Montreux (Mar 8, 2009)

Back to the original post...
Fast idle can be one of two things. Either you have a vacuum leak, or the choke linkage is not working correctly. Since patting the gas changed it, it sounds like choke linkage. 

When the choke closes, it pulls the fast idle cam under the idle speed screw. When the choke opens, and you step on the gas, the fast idle cam should retract. When you built the carb, was the linkage free-moving? It should be clean and dry (no oil—it draws dirt).

I think your car has a hot air choke. It should have two metal tubes to draw hot air from the manifold to the bi-metallic spring that opens and closes the choke. If this system is not working, the choke will not fully open and the fast idle cam will not fully retract.

Sometimes the hot air tubes totally rust away. Replacements are available, or electric choke conversions are available.


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## KBrown (Apr 7, 2020)

Roqetman said:


> Be sure to clean the rust out of the distributor. I know from experience that rust can interfer with the distributor advancing properly. It may start and run at idle but on the road it will not run good.


Great point, will clean it as best I can.



Montreux said:


> Fast idle can be one of two things. Either you have a vacuum leak, or the choke linkage is not working correctly. Since patting the gas changed it, it sounds like choke linkage.
> When the choke closes, it pulls the fast idle cam under the idle speed screw. When the choke opens, and you step on the gas, the fast idle cam should retract. When you built the carb, was the linkage free-moving? It should be clean and dry (no oil—it draws dirt).
> I think your car has a hot air choke. It should have two metal tubes to draw hot air from the manifold to the bi-metallic spring that opens and closes the choke. If this system is not working, the choke will not fully open and the fast idle cam will not fully retract.
> Sometimes the hot air tubes totally rust away. Replacements are available, or electric choke conversions are available.


Yes, there are two metal tubes coming from the intake to the passenger side of the carb. Will double check those are free-flowing. 

The fast idle only happened the one time. The linkage feels pretty free to me, but I'm not carb expert. Will play with it.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Yay! Success.........or at least it breathes. LOL Now just keep after it and begin to clean up all the loose ends and you'll be riding high for the summer and thinking about that rebuild for your winter project. We can help with that too.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Super......now at least you will be rolling!


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Knew you could do it!👍


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