# Windage Tray: YES or NO?????



## chemnick (Nov 16, 2013)

I have finally gotten around to a partial teardown on my 400 which, as feedback here had suggested, does appear to be a RA III or IV, '69 or '70 (cast # 9799915, date code H269, block code WS). I kind of expected to see a windage tray when the pan came off, but there was none. It is a 4 bolt main block and I thought I had remembered reading that the windage trays were no longer used after the onset of the baffled oil pans. Is this correct? The main caps (#2 and #4, I think) each have two tapped holes in them which are meant to attach the tray, correct? The oil pan has no baffle. In addition, the drippers under the valve covers have provisions for attaching to three head bolts, however there was a regular head bolt where the center hole is, thus the drippers were retained by just the outside two. BTW, the crank has a 10/10 regrind so obviously hands have been inside this motor before. Where would one go to get the correct info for exactly how this should be assembled and with what internals? Once again, my thanks for your input.......................


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Yes, it should have a tray. Probably whoever was 'in' it at some time in the past left it out.
What about the lower dipstick tube? Pontiac dipstick tubes have three segments: upper, middle, lower. There were two styles of lower tube used in Pontiacs: The one in "with tray" engines used a tube that inserted into the "middle" tube (the one pressed into the block) on one end and inserted into a hole in the tray on the lower end. the other style had a tab welded onto it that attached to the center main cap with a bolt.

If your tray is gone, I suspect it might also be missing the lower tube.

Now would be a good time to make a few decisions, starting with how do you want to build this engine? 100% stock/original, or taking advantage of some modern updates?

(Keep in mind that 100% original is going to present problems in making it 'live' on today's fuel.)

Bear


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## chemnick (Nov 16, 2013)

Yes, I also have dipstick tube issues. The upper tube looked OK from the outside, however what there is of the lower tube (I think) appears to be abused with a hammer and there is only about 3/8" left sticking out, UGLY!! I an definitely looking for help in that area also. I was going to try to "assume" good things about the inside of this engine because of how strong it ran but now I'm thinking total teardown. Hate to yank the pistons (good compression) but I want to check the bearings. Is there a correct lower tube for a block where the tray has been removed? I'm not thrilled about drilling the main cap.


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## Norms68 (Jul 17, 2013)

Butler Performance suggests that you don't need a windage tray with a baffled oil pan. 

I just ordered a new stock type baffled pan, upper tube that needs to be installed from the inside out mounted flush with a brass drift, a lower tube with bracket that installs on the main bearing cap and since I'm using ARP studs I need to mold it around the stud.

I do have a windage tray from a '71 block I'm not gonna use that I can sell if you need one.

-Norm


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

If you have good and even compression just do the bearings you don't need to remove the pistons from the cylinders, just push them up as high as you can and rotate/remove the crank to get the rod side bearings in. Do put some rubber tubing on the rod bolts so they don't ding the walls.


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## chemnick (Nov 16, 2013)

UPDATE: Although compression was pretty fair and close (145-155), when I pulled the heads I found that one bank had fairly new pistons (TRW I think), the other bank looked original (flat top, no marking visible on top, std. bore, only the notches to indicate forward placement, with a small dime-sized +/- indentation in the center). Also besides being std. bare, no detectable ridge at the top of the cylinders. Newer pistons have no indentation in the center and are also flat top. Funny thing about them is there are different locations for the forward pointing arrow between the front two pistons than the back, although the numbers on top are the same.
The heads are very recently rebuilt and there are different springs and top caps on the intake/exhaust. Intakes have gold colored and the exhaust have black. I'm thinking maybe there was an aftermarket cam kit put in it; perhaps when I take the timing gear set out I'll see some ID markings on the end of the cam. The engine seems to have quite a history, but it sure ran like hell. I was going to hold off a year or two, but since I am doing a total restoration on the body, maybe I'll bite the bullet and do this engine. I do also have a 1974 400 sitting in the corner of the shop. From what I hear on this site, the RA III may bring some bucks. Sure has been interesting finding out some facts about it. Suggestions??


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## chemnick (Nov 16, 2013)

Still can't figure out why I can't upload pics. I always get a page script error.


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## chemnick (Nov 16, 2013)

How much for the windage tray and is it a full or 3/4?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Your block should have a full windage tray. Not only does it hold the lower dipstick tube in place, it keeps oil splash off of the crankshaft and frees up a bunch of horsepower. Pontiac put it there for a good reason.


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## Norms68 (Jul 17, 2013)

I have a full OEM tray from the '71 block, I'll go $40 plus shipping. Looks like about half the price of new trays. It does have light surface rust but no holes at all. Looks good.

Take a look at the pics. If you like, send me a private message.

-Norm


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## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Norms68 said:


> I have a full OEM tray from the '71 block, I'll go $40 plus shipping. Looks like about half the price of new trays. It does have light surface rust but no holes at all. Looks good.
> 
> Take a look at the pics. If you like, send me a private message.
> 
> -Norm


Jump on this.. Aftermarket one from BOP is $75 and is damn near identical besides some extra holes drilled in it. Use the tray for sure. As Geetee said above it keeps the oil from getting frothy and airy after being beaten by the crank. Oil pumps dont like to suck up air bubbles. Use the tray.


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## Norms68 (Jul 17, 2013)

Hey guys,

Just want to let you all know I sold and shipped that windage tray to Chemnick if you were interested.
I do have almost all the parts from the "71 Pontiac 400 engine minus the block, windage tray, timing set, water pump and timing cover. I'll start putting items up in the for sale section but PM me if you're looking for something. Thanks.

-Norm


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## 646904GTO (Feb 10, 2008)

chemnick said:


> In addition, the drippers under the valve covers have provisions for attaching to three head bolts, however there was a regular head bolt where the center hole is, thus the drippers were retained by just the outside two.
> BTW, the crank has a 10/10 regrind so obviously hands have been inside this motor before. Where would one go to get the correct info for exactly how this should be assembled and with what internals? Once again, my thanks for your input.......................


The rocker drippers only bolt down to the end holes. There is no studded bolt for the center mount. If you use poly-locks they will not fit under the drippers. You should use a windage tray.


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## chemnick (Nov 16, 2013)

*Thanks to all*

Hey guys:
I've decided to go with the lower end as is, just have to check the rods and mains. I did find a fair amount of Gasket pieces, a little silicone residue, etc. on the pickup screen, although the oil pump looks very new (and the pickup tube). Although probably OK, I can't see going this far and not putting a new pump on it and maybe a shaft. I can always duplicate what's there, although it seems to me that in my SBC days the way to set the screen was to leave it on snug but not tight, lower than needed, place the pan on to the block to get the screen to "zero clearance" then raise it up about 1/2" +/- higher. Thanks to Norm for the windage tray! it works perfectly. NO FUN getting a dipstick tube out that somebody mushroomed over with a hammer, HOWEVER, I found a long 1/2" bolt with the threads cut off nice and square works great for driving the old piece out of the block. Gasket set should be here tomorrow so the top end can get assembled. Waiting for the dipstick tubes from Ames after that. STILL would like to share some pics, but can't get them to upload.............


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## Norms68 (Jul 17, 2013)

Glad the tray worked out for you. 

Under advanced reply try the paperclip symbol to add attachments to your post. I believe you can attach up to 5 pictures that are less than 1.91 MB in size from a pop up window.

-Norm


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## chemnick (Nov 16, 2013)

*Trying a pic*

I'll try to add a pic, if it goes OK, I'll send a pic later of two water pumps with VERY different impellers, wondering what the diff is.


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## chemnick (Nov 16, 2013)

*More on the 400 engine*

Got back to work on the engine. Found some slight pitting in one cylinder (I'm sure it was from all the time the car sat. Now I'm struggling over I should send it out to be bored and put all new pistons. Compression was good when I checked (150# on that cylinder) last spring and I have run the engine quite a bit since then without any issues. Decisions, decisions............... Anyway, here are the pics of the two water pumps. Left one was in the '75 motor with an early style timing cover. Right on was on the RA III. Besides the impeller veins being so straight, note the three holes in the impeller itself. This one had only one divider plate behind it. No problems with engine temp.


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