# Edelbrock Torker and carb power gains



## SPCMarty (Jul 29, 2011)

So if I read correctly, my 71' Lemans with 2bbl carb 350 v8 had 250horses. I've heard less than stellar reviews for the Torker II but I put one, and a 750cfm carb onto the engine today. 
If anyone has a close estimate of the gains that'd be greatly appreciated. Think headers are next on the list for the engine.


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## freethinker (Nov 14, 2009)

SPCMarty said:


> So if I read correctly, my 71' Lemans with 2bbl carb 350 v8 had 250horses. I've heard less than stellar reviews for the Torker II but I put one, and a 750cfm carb onto the engine today.
> If anyone has a close estimate of the gains that'd be greatly appreciated. Think headers are next on the list for the engine.


probably not much. a 71 pontiac 350 was a low compression slug and i dont think you can do much to change that.
if you are after performance put a 400 in it.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Basically, to realize a proper gain, you need to cam the engine for all that additional fuel. I would speak to Comp Cams for the correct grind. Otherwise you will be providing fuel to an induction system that can't handle it. Eric


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## SPCMarty (Jul 29, 2011)

Well thats less than what I hoped for. 
I put everything on and test drove it. It falls on it's face when I punch it and doesn't respond well until 2500-3500 rpm (no tach). I understand the Torker needs a cam to work best but should it really drive this poorly before 3500rpm?


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## facn8me (Jul 30, 2011)

Your gonna have to mess with the jets and stuff. Holleys are not one size fits all sorta thing. But your intake is a 2500rpm up intake..... Cam will help. A small stall convertor and gears would really help. It's all about matching parts.


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## SPCMarty (Jul 29, 2011)

I was considering too putting a standard 4bbl Rochester off a chevy for now if there is just too much fuel there. It's a edelbrock performer 750cfm that I took off my old 83' Chevy K20 350ci.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

You would be way ahead with a factory four barrel intake and Qjet. That Torker and Holley are just all wrong for that motor. Put em on Craigslist. Just find a 400 and run the stock intake or a performer.


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## SPCMarty (Jul 29, 2011)

A 400 would be nice, I don't have time or money for that yet. Still paying for the lemans.


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## facn8me (Jul 30, 2011)

You can rejet the edelbrock too. Thats the nice thing about the aftermarket carbs but it can be trying sometimes hitting the right combo. Not impossible by any means and edelbrock tech could probably get you close


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## SPCMarty (Jul 29, 2011)

I have a jet assortment so maybe I can find a good combo. 
Would going with a edelbrock performer rpm or stock manifold fix the issue as well?


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Marty, I think ALKY meant a 400 INTAKE and Q-JET, on your 350. Not the whole motor. You have too much carb, and manifold now, and not enough cam. E


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## chuckha62 (Apr 5, 2010)

You're just not going to build velocity with that manifold. I removed a Torquer and went back to a correct factory spreadbore manifold on my '67 and found a significant increase in performance. As has been said, find a factory manifold and carb combination and you'll be WAAAY ahead of where you are now.


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## SPCMarty (Jul 29, 2011)

I'd like to use the edelbrock carb still, I have found a stock 4bbl manifold on eBay and a edelbrock performer.


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## SPCMarty (Jul 29, 2011)

Well I went ahead and ordered a performer manifold including a 650cfm Carter carb. 
With my dad's help we got the car drivable at least but the lack of low end power and still stumbling launching full throttle.


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## SPCMarty (Jul 29, 2011)

What is the compression to the 350ci? I can't seem to find info


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## NorwalkNugget (Aug 5, 2011)

I had a 1971 350 engine with a Edelbrock Performer and Holley 650 carb (4555). It stumbled but I think the previous owner had a cam done on it... Engine blew.
Anyways I transferred the Intake and Carb over to a 73 350 engine and that seems to be extremely smooth. I think it's going through gas a little bit though but maybe your engine needs rebuilding etc.. I know the 73 was at some point. I also have headers and dual exhaust if that helps.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Your results with the Torker II are exactly what I'd expect. Given your engine, you're going to get the best possible results with a factory iron intake and a small to medium sized 4-bbl carb. A Quadrajet would also be a good choice because of how it works. Although the base versions are rated up to 750 cfm, by design they adapt quite well to smaller engines. (Your motor as it is doesn't "need" anywhere near 750 cfm.) The reason you lost all your low end drivability has everything to do with the fact that the Torker II is what's called a "single plane" manifold and also is "too big" for your engine. The combination of those things kills the air flow velocity through your engine at low rpm, and that's why it's dead down there. Before you spend any more money on parts, please take some time to do some research into the 'whys and wherefores' of how all this stuff works. In the long run you'll be much better off and you also won't be as likely to waste money on combinations that don't work. When it comes to building engine combinations, misplaced application of the "bigger is always better" train of thought is guaranteed to get you into trouble and lead to disappointment - as you're finding out.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I have the results of two dyno tests - the engine in question (mine) is a Pontiac 461 (stroked 400) that has a moderately rowdy solid roller cam, good cylinder heads, and various other enhancements. It's a pretty far cry from your 350. The only difference between the two dyno runs was an intake manifold change - everything else, including the carb and jetting, was the same. The first test was run with a factory iron intake that had been port matched to the heads and also had some of the internal bumps cleaned up - nothing fancy. The second test was run with an Edelbrock Torker I that also had been port matched to the heads and had been cleaned up/smoothed up internally a lot more than the iron intake had.

I ran the tests because I too had heard a lot of opinions on both manifolds, good and bad. I had the opportunity to find out for myself while I was breaking in my engine, so I decided to give them a try and just see.


Here's the test with the iron intake
Here's the test with the Torker I

Moral: Despite what aftermarket manufacturers would like for you to think, generally speaking the factory engineers who designed our cars were not stupid and generally knew what they were doing.

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I agree with Bear, Alky, Eric, and the others. A 350 is a decent engine and can be made to run very well. It needs the right combination of parts. A decent cam that is designed for low compression flow (like a comp cams Xe series), a stock 4bbl manifold, and a stock spec carb like a q-jet would work fine. I've driven bone stock '71-'74 350 4bbl Pontiacs, and they run very well for what they are. You don't need a huge cam, a trick intake, a huge carb, or 3 inch exhausts. Just the right combination of parts. The factory engineers did their homework. These engines weren't dogs when they were new and in stock form.


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## SPCMarty (Jul 29, 2011)

Well it seems i have a bit to learn about these vehicles. Im following my fathers suggestion using a performer intake as he uses on on his 402 bored 396ci chevelle. Perhaps ill rebuild the carter 650cfm when it arrives over using the 750 Edelbrock. 
Seems strange that aftermarket parts specially Edelbrock couldn't be better than stock, I do understand my folly going with a Torker II... i think.
I appreciate the charts Bear. So as it stands I'll have a 650 carter, and 750 edelbrock carbs. Torker II and Performer intake to work with. I do keep all the parts so the two bbl and intake are still around.


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## Hot_Rod (Feb 10, 2011)

Your car is not a chevy and your engine is stock from what you tell us. People here will tell you in a flash these cars are totally different. 

The word chevy is almost a cuss word here, lol. :lol:


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

X2: Chevy mods applied to Pontiac engines= BIG DISSAPOINTMENT.


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## SPCMarty (Jul 29, 2011)

Well the performer and edelbrock carb are on there now. 
I've read of people who mod 350s to match the HO 350. Seems like different heads are a major part in doing that. Can the stock ones be shaved, or must they be swapped?


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Comparing a stock 2 barrel Pontiac 350 small valves to a big block 396 rat motor is apples and oranges. The rat will make alot more power because of superior heads. If you swap to a set of 6x heads, or anything with 2.11 valves, and raise the compression will wake the motor up, but raise the RPMs of the power band. Problem is the best 350 is still going to feel weak after 1 ride in a torque monster 455 car, same money to build either motor. I have the same combo in my 70, 350, cam, performer intake, edelbrock 600, headers, 2 1/4 dual exhaust, and 3.36 gears. Car feels quick enough, probably a 14.5 1/4 on a great day. But then I jump in my truck that runs low 13's and the wow of the 350 goes away. I want to build a 461 for the car, got a 400 w/6x-4 heads sitting in the corner waiting.


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## SPCMarty (Jul 29, 2011)

would be nice if i could picture affording a 400 engine. Though it might be worth holding off until i can find one rather than dumping cash into the 350. One thing I noted to myself was even though i buy the intake and eventually headers, it really isn't a loss since they bolt to big blocks as well. There is quite a few 400s on ebay but they're all pick up only basis. hopefully i find a pre-71' engine around Duluth MN


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

You are up north, plenty of big cars up there with 400 and 455s in them. 350 is a good driver, and all the parts fit on a bigger motor, so you are good. There are no big block Pontiacs, all the same blocks. It will be a fun ride even with the 350..


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## Hot_Rod (Feb 10, 2011)

After reading this thread again, I really think my 326 is having the same issues. The car is a gutless wonder with a 4 bbl and torker (mines a 1 though) manifold. 

It has its moments when its quick and then others (at WOT) gutless and feel like a 4 banger could beat me. I'm thinking its this dern intake.. Would any stock 4 bbl intake from a pontiac work on my 326?


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

Hot_Rod said:


> After reading this thread again, I really think my 326 is having the same issues. The car is a gutless wonder with a 4 bbl and torker (mines a 1 though) manifold.
> 
> It has its moments when its quick and then others (at WOT) gutless and feel like a 4 banger could beat me. I'm thinking its this dern intake.. Would any stock 4 bbl intake from a pontiac work on my 326?


As long as you have 65 up heads, then any Qjet intake will work on it. If you find an EGR intake you will need a valley pan with a larger relief in it to clear the manifold, otherwise the 65-72 intakes will fit your valley pan. I have one of the later pans if you need a pic of what it looks like.

The single plane intakes simply dont work on low compression stock engines, not even on 455s. The airflow needed to make them work isnt there, and the vacuum signal to the carb will be poor. That will make it load up, and force you to do things to make it idle that will result in it idling very rich. 

The low speed through the intake also affects the ports because it slows down the fuel charge, and Pontiacs have a high velocity port that makes lots of bottom end torque, so it simply kills that torque and makes it suck to drive. A small hole flows air faster than a large hole, and that velocity is what makes our engines so very different from chevy engines. 

The chevy has a short port where Pontiacs have a long port, so that makes the chevy run at higher RPM with less bottom end torque for the same engine size. When you run a single plane intake you effectively shorten the port as well. With a 350 chevy you need more gear and a cam that makes power at a higher RPM than you do with a 350 Pontiac. Chevy engines need the extended RPM where Pontiacs dont. If you build a chevy like a Pontiac, put a highway gear behind it with a mild cam, it will be a dog and the Pontiac will walk away from it like its standing still.


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## Thumpin455 (Feb 17, 2010)

Marty, I have a spare 400 in Nebraska and I live in Michigan's upper peninsula, so MN is on the way home for me. Duluth is farther north than I am, but maybe you have something we can trade. I need a truck that runs, preferably a 4x4 that isnt rusting into the ground. Trade me a decent truck and I will build you an engine, or something along those lines.

Being smart about building a 400 or 455 you can do it, and make over 450hp for around $2500, if you do the assembly yourself, you source quality but not overpriced parts, and you choose the right cam. Finding a good machinist is the hard part of it. The last 455 I did cost $4100, but it has a hydraulic roller cam, and a crank kit from Butler Performance in it. 

You can knock almost $2k off that if you dont run ported heads and the roller cam. The roller alone is over $1k for all the parts, where you can run a flat tappet cam like the Summit 2802 that costs a bit over $100 for the cam and lifters, with a set of Comp 995 springs that are under $100 as well. That particular cam wont make you 450 hp, but it will put a smile on your face. Machine work usually runs me between $250 and $450 for the block prep and $900 for everything including balancing the crank and rods.

It doesnt have to be a $6000 engine, and you dont need a $700 set of headers either. You can use all the tin and covers from the 350 on a 400 or 455, so no need to buy all that stuff new either. Almost everything interchanges on these engines, so its not as expensive as going from a 305 chevy to a 400 chevy or a BBC. It costs essentially the same to build a 350, 400, or 455. All you need is the block, and a 400 block can build a 400, 428, 455, and 496 easily with just a crank kit. Pontiacs are the perfect sleeper engines because most people wont know its not a 301, and is actually a 496.


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## Hot_Rod (Feb 10, 2011)

Thumpin455 said:


> As long as you have 65 up heads, then any Qjet intake will work on it. If you find an EGR intake you will need a valley pan with a larger relief in it to clear the manifold, otherwise the 65-72 intakes will fit your valley pan. I have one of the later pans if you need a pic of what it looks like.
> 
> The single plane intakes simply dont work on low compression stock engines, not even on 455s. The airflow needed to make them work isnt there, and the vacuum signal to the carb will be poor. That will make it load up, and force you to do things to make it idle that will result in it idling very rich.
> 
> ...


So I guess I couldnt use a 77/78 stock 4 bbl intake on it then? It came with my 77/78 (whichever it is) 6.6 I plan to use for my lemans someday and was hoping it be a bolt on swap. 

After driving it today it doesnt perform too bad with this setup but WOT is another story. If it had a decent cam the intake probly wouldnt be a bad thing but for the most part it just isnt good for anything full throttle.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Hot_Rod said:


> So I guess I couldnt use a 77/78 stock 4 bbl intake on it then? It came with my 77/78 (whichever it is) 6.6 I plan to use for my lemans someday and was hoping it be a bolt on swap.
> 
> After driving it today it doesnt perform too bad with this setup but WOT is another story. If it had a decent cam the intake probly wouldnt be a bad thing but for the most part it just isnt good for anything full throttle.


It should pick up at WOT, so it may be a carb/timing issue, mine is the same way. Quick somedays, not so others. But, I haven't kicked in the 4 barrel yet, Throttle response changes, love a holley, hate my edelbrock.
Great info Thumpin, why dont' you drop an engine off for me, in Fl, lol..


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

The later 400 intake will work fine. The only real difference is they are set up for EGR (blockoff plate :lol and restricted secondaries (the intake has "D" shaped openings for the secondaries instead of round) and it may actually work better on a small cu in engine. Certainly no harm in trying it.


Do you have access to a chassis dyno? I would recommend a dyno session if possible, not just for top end power #'s or just for late model cars like most people think but for tuning. It can get expensive if you don't know what your doing, but if you come prepared it can be an invaluable tuning aid by showing you A/F ratios throughout the powerband, TQ and HP peaks and more. Just a thought. :cheers


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## Hot_Rod (Feb 10, 2011)

jetstang said:


> It should pick up at WOT, so it may be a carb/timing issue, mine is the same way. Quick somedays, not so others. But, I haven't kicked in the 4 barrel yet, Throttle response changes, love a holley, hate my edelbrock.
> Great info Thumpin, why dont' you drop an engine off for me, in Fl, lol..


Could be. Carb might just need a rebuild or something also.


ALKYGTO said:


> The later 400 intake will work fine. The only real difference is they are set up for EGR (blockoff plate :lol and restricted secondaries (the intake has "D" shaped openings for the secondaries instead of round) and it may actually work better on a small cu in engine. Certainly no harm in trying it.
> 
> 
> Do you have access to a chassis dyno? I would recommend a dyno session if possible, not just for top end power #'s or just for late model cars like most people think but for tuning. It can get expensive if you don't know what your doing, but if you come prepared it can be an invaluable tuning aid by showing you A/F ratios throughout the powerband, TQ and HP peaks and more. Just a thought. :cheers


Not unless it were free or close to it, lol. I may try it someday and see what happens. For now I'm trying to get my daily driver finished.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

I have "lifetime" dyno privleges at my buddys shop . Dyno Jet 248X and I've spun the rollers as high as 750 with my old combo. Shooting for 800+ RWHP and some timeslips next year.


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## Hot_Rod (Feb 10, 2011)

ALKYGTO said:


> I have "lifetime" dyno privleges at my buddys shop . Dyno Jet 248X and I've spun the rollers as high as 750 with my old combo. Shooting for 800+ RWHP and some timeslips next year.


Must be nice. :cheers


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## SPCMarty (Jul 29, 2011)

I wish that trade offer found me about 8 months ago. I had a 92 F150 that I traded for an 86' Honda shadow. I'm currently looking for an old ford truck(carbed) before snow hits. I have a 76' year Ford inline6 300ci engine with 40k set for a manual waiting for a truck. 

At the very least the car idles fine now. The 650 Carter carb it came with was shot so I had to use the 750 edelbrock. One wheel wonder used to peel out nicely with the two barrel, now it does just a little. Granted the edelbrock is set for the richest setting on the pre-shot or whatever that adjustable lever on the throttle is called.


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