# Overheated and now mysterious valve train noise, surging and loss of power



## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

So, on Saturday coming home from a car show my engine overheated. No issues whatsoever driving the 35 mile drive there. On the way back engine was running nicely at 180-190 fro about 20 miles. Then, while at speed (approx. 65-70 mph turning 3100ish RPM) the engine temp very quickly began to climb. I shut it down on the side of the Hwy at 220ish. Temp continued to climb and boiled over into my puke tank. Let the engine cool and restarted. Idled for 10m at 1200rpm and engine stayed cool at 180. Decided to get a tow home to avoid breaking down on a long bridge or further damaging something.

Before this my cooling was dialed in. New Flow kooler water pump, properly clearanced impeller plate, aluminum rad, 180 thermostat, dual SPAL fans properly shrouded...all new. No overheating issues at all.

This was the first long trip after installing a new-to-my-car TCI TH400 with a Breakaway 2600 stall converter (part# 240901), which seemed to drive ok around town. This is the ONLY thing that had changed before this trip. Prior to this I had a standard TH400 with a stock style 1800ish stall converter and NEVER had any overheating issues.

Sunday I took a closer look at the car. Fans work fine with sensor control. Topped coolant back up. Car is now VERY hard starting. Got it running and it no longer idled with existing carb adjustments. Turned up the curb idle a bit to keep it running. Engine now has a strange cyclic "surge" with what sounds like valvetrain noise from the passenger side head. The fuel pressure gauge is also dancing all over the place now. The car runs like sh*t and there is notable loss of power when driving. Took it around the block and had to 2 pedal drive it to keep it running. Converter feels the same as before...takes a minute to flash when easy driving, but engages. Car is now parked.

Here is a vid that shows the engine valve noise. I do not hear a knock, just that strange cyclic rattling. I am worried.








Valve noise







youtube.com





My thoughts:
1. failed thermostat. but car stays cool at idle after therm temp reached. so prob not this.
1. trans is a bad apple. but it got me there, just not back. weird. maybe not a bad trans
2. bad converter or too high stall for my car. This seems likely, but at above 3000 RPM on the hwy it should not have been slipping anymore. The overheating did not seem to be a low RPM or idle issue, more of a heavy load-at speed issue. 
3. some issue with timing? 
4. very big bad engine issue (lordy let's hope not)

Open to thoughts. Not sure what to check first and rule out. I am headed back East so will have to leave the car parked for some time, but would love to have some troubleshooting ideas for when I get back to it. 

I'm feeling gutted that the trans I just put in may be the source of the issue. Even more gutted that now I have bad sounding engine noise. And even more gutted that the car is currently sidelined...

Fire away.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

How are you cooling that new TH400? Are you using the cooler in the radiator? Perhaps too much slippage with the new converter is building more heat than the radiator can handle for highway cruising. I would check timing first. Then drain transmission, change filter and fluid, unless it obviously smells burnt. Do you still have your old TH400 and converter?


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

I installed a deep aluminum pan on the new TH400. Brand new HP filter and fluid. The trans lines run in series to the cooler in radiator then to an 18" heat sink cooler mounted under the core support. I have a temp gauge for the trans installed, but it was not hooked up yet. Fluid smells fine...no burnt smell.

Old Th400 is long gone as it had its own issues.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

You could have a couple issues here. The hard starting rough idle shouldn't have anything to do with the transmission or converter, unless something went seriously wrong. A couple quick things to check would be pull and inspect the plugs. Check out the wires while your in there. See if one looks different than the rest. I'd also pull the valve covers and see if all the rockers are still where they belong and if so, are all moving when you turn it over. It was a very good idea to not just drive it home.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

Thanks.
My next step was to pull the covers to take a look at the rockers, but did not have the time. It'll have to wait a few months. 

Plug wires are all ok. Did not pull plugs yet. The idle is not "rough" like it has a misfire. It, for some reason, would just not stay idling after the overheating incient. And, there is a strange surge that kind of overlaps with the valve noise. 

I know it's probably all guessing until I open things up to take a look. Just looking for next-step ideas I guess.

I'm really tired of my TH400 woes, to say the least.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Call anytime if you need help bro


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Hard to start, running funk-ily, overheating, (most of all) happened suddenly. That sounds very ignition-y to me and I'd start there at least. Check your timing. I don't know/remember what kind of system you're running, but for example if it's the factory points, or a similar HEI, etc. --- vacuum advance can has taken a hike? Breaker plate has somehow "come loose" and timing is now severely retarded?

Fuel pump? You mentioned erratic pressure. If it's going away and only partially doing its job, perhaps it's causing a severe lean condition which can have similar symptoms.

Take a deep breath, start with the easy to get to and easy to check items first and eliminate those before moving on to more serious possibilities.

Good luck!

Bear


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

One of my first thoughts was that the distr hold down had come loose and let the distributor spin. Not the case.

The mechanical fuel pump is new. Probably only 100m on it. No issues until the drive home. Not sure if it is the issue or if that cheap pressure gauge is wacked out.

Ignition is an old MSM 6A box and a new blaster coil sending spark to an equally old MSD billet distributor (new cap and rotor) with NO VAC can for advance. this has been causing me all kinds of issues over the last 2 years in getting my timing right, I installed the distributor when I was much younger and wanted shiny speed parts but was unaware of the benefits of vacuum advance on these engines.

When I'm back I'll dig into the timing. Thanks


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Sorry to hear this. I'm from the area originally and you were smart to avoid breakdown on the bridge. First thought: your stall is too high, IMO. It is slipping enough to generate heat and heat the radiator and coolant . Second thought: put a vacuum gauge on it, see what it reads. Is it steady, or flickering? Pull the coil wire. Crank the engine. Does it crank even or does it have a gallop in it, indicating a dead cylinder? I agree with BearGrandFunkRailroad (yeah!) that it could be ignition caused by the heat episode. Check the mechanical first and we'll go from there. When I rebuilt my '67 in 1988, my brand new thermostat was defective and stuck closed on the cam break in. Just because parts are new doesn't mean they're good...especially in the past 10 years. Keep us posted. The noise in your video sounds like something in the trans failing to me. Not an engine sound, unless your windage tray came loose, which I'd bet the farm did not happen.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

Hadn't thought of the trans fluid heating the coolant via the shared radiator space. 

But the converter is a 2400-2600 stall, which I thought would be fully engaged with no slipping at HWY speeds (I have 3.25 rear gears with a TH400 so anything above 70 and im in the 3000s).

But I am also thinking the stall is too high, which sucks since I just got the trans in.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Just now listened to the video (shoulda done that before). That's some kinda strange noise and not like anything I've ever heard before. It happening on regular time intervals is weird too. It's almost like the sound a bushing makes when it gets loose enough to let the shaft sort of 'rattle around' inside it. 
You said the last thing you changed was the converter. Did you measure the distance between the converter and the face of the flex plate, with the converter pushed as far back into the transmission as it could go? There are specs for that clearance and if they're not right, they can take out the front pump in the tranny. Forgive me for asking a dumb question, but I've gotten in a hurry before and overlooked things, like making sure the trans fluid level was right. I assume you filled the converter with trans fluid before you installed it? Pull the dipstick and take a good whiff of the fluid. Does is smell burnt?

And like GeeTee said - these days just because a part is new doesn't mean much. Could be the converter itself maybe?

I'm wracking my feeble mind here trying to come up with an explanation for that noise.

Bear


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

Had lots of help from a pro shop on the trans instal, so confident that went in correctly. Yes, I did all the things tyou mentioned. Good points, though.

It was a second-hand trans and converter, so there is a chance one or the other was no good. 

I agree, that cycling rattling noise is super weird to me. It it not as apparent in the vid, but it is really coming from the passenger side only making me think it is valvetrain noise? It also seems to coincide with the slight cycling RPM surge at idle as well. 

No idea though.


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## sameold01 (Jun 21, 2020)

Disconnect the converter from flywheel . Listen again. I think it's the converter.


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

ylwgto said:


> Hadn't thought of the trans fluid heating the coolant via the shared radiator space.
> 
> But the converter is a 2400-2600 stall, which I thought would be fully engaged with no slipping at HWY speeds (I have 3.25 rear gears with a TH400 so anything above 70 and im in the 3000s).
> 
> But I am also thinking the stall is too high, which sucks since I just got the trans in.


it kinda sounds like the converter. on the fuel pump take a vacuum gauge and check it. it might show if the pump is failing. check the compression to see if a gasket is blown or starting to.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

sameold01 said:


> Disconnect the converter from flywheel . Listen again. I think it's the converter.


I was going to suggest pulling the trans back a bit, but this is a smarter idea, and easily done in less than half an hour. Undo the converter bolts and push the converter into the pump and see if the engine will crank/spin without engaging the converter. If it does not move the converter, fire it up and listen. If it spins a little, the hub is contacting the crank and you'll have to at least back the trans off about a quarter of an inch. 
My gut tells me it's the converter and not the engine. Reasoning being: I've never heard an engine make this type of noise, and it runs too well. The lack of power, overheating, but not missing tells me it's likely a power transmission problem, not an engine problem. I could be wrong. 
Let's disconnect the converter and trans and go from there.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I'll add: I would never add a high stall converter to a Pontiac driven on the street unless I bracket raced the car every week. Too much wasted gas, too much heat, too much wear and tear on the engine. Your car would be much happier with the stock stall, IMO.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

Thanks all.

When I get back I am going to just ditch this "new" higher stall converter for a more stock style like I had before. sadly, that means pulling the trans...again 

Could a bad converter cause that weird RPM surging at idle?

I'm getting to the point where I'd rather just start putting that $ toward a manual conversion, but that's a ways off.

Any recommendations on a quality near-stock stall converter that won't bankrupt me? I've asked before and I know not to cheap-out here, but some of them are mega expensive.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

About 10-12 years ago I installed a TCI converter in my '67 spec'd out for a 1970 LS6 (454 Chevy) or similar. 1900 stall speed. With my 2.56 rear gear, I'm happy with it. I think it was under $200 at the time.


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

ylwgto said:


> Thanks all.
> 
> When I get back I am going to just ditch this "new" higher stall converter for a more stock style like I had before. sadly, that means pulling the trans...again
> 
> ...


just curious what brand converter did you put in there?


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

ylwgto said:


> Thanks all.
> 
> When I get back I am going to just ditch this "new" higher stall converter for a more stock style like I had before. sadly, that means pulling the trans...again
> 
> ...


yes, if something is broken. it could be a bearing but im not a converter guy. see if you can find an exploded view on the net. it can explain better than i can.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

ylwgto said:


> Thanks all.
> 
> When I get back I am going to just ditch this "new" higher stall converter for a more stock style like I had before. sadly, that means pulling the trans...again
> 
> ...


Bro... just pull the trigger and do the tremec. It's expensive but it's what you want and fcheaper in the long run. I'll help install it


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

ponchonlefty said:


> just curious what brand converter did you put in there?


TCI Breakaway #240901. Rated 2400-2600 stall by TCI "without negatively affecting part throttle driving".
Purchased second hand from a seller that replaced it with a 700R4. Claimed <2500m use. He also guaranteed it would work on the bill of sale, so seemed very trustworthy.

*BUT, now that I am investigating more, Butler sells this converter and rates it at 2600-2900! *



https://butlerperformance.com/i-24453606-tci-11-converter-2600-2900-stall-speed-anti-balloon-plates-for-th-shaft-al-stator-tci-240901.html



So, that high of a stall would explain the overheating on the HWY...right! RPM calculator shows me at only 2850 RPM at 70mph. I was trying to drive off the tach to keep it above 3000, but traffic on the way home did not allow it. So I assume there was a lot of slippage still happening, even if my mild cam took the stall down to even the 2600 range (i.e., at 55-60MPH I'd be turning 2300-2500 RPM).

Then, the excessive heat from the trans slipping transferred to my coolant via the shared radiator space (despite an additional external cooler). I hope I did not fry my trans internals.

I guess there is no way to know if the converter is defective or just too much stall for my setup. either way now I gotta deal with remove/replace labor.

This theory still doesn't explain the RPM surge, weird noise and poor idle control. So looks like I'll have my work cut out for me. Tempted to use this to justify the Holley throttle body upgrade I've wanted to do for some time...


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

armyadarkness said:


> Bro... just pull the trigger and do the tremec. It's expensive but it's what you want and fcheaper in the long run. I'll help install it


If I had 5K layin around I'd be all over it!
It is my dream upgrade (although my wife would no longer be able to drive the car, and she likes driving the car, which I like)


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

ylwgto said:


> TCI Breakaway #240901. Rated 2400-2600 stall by TCI "without negatively affecting part throttle driving".
> Purchased second hand from a seller that replaced it with a 700R4. Claimed <2500m use. He also guaranteed it would work on the bill of sale, so seemed very trustworthy.
> 
> *BUT, now that I am investigating more, Butler sells this converter and rates it at 2600-2900! *
> ...


never buy a converter used . that is a no no.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

ponchonlefty said:


> never buy a converter used . that is a no no.


It came with the TCI tranny. 

I shoulda just reused my existing converter that worked great since the 90s...


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

ylwgto said:


> It came with the TCI tranny.
> 
> I shoulda just reused my existing converter that worked great since the 90s...


do you know how much power was put through it? how many miles have you put on the trans? im just asking to help figure whats happening.if it did not surge with the other converter i would think thats the problem. hope this will help.


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## Jetzster (Jan 18, 2020)

Jared said:


> You could have a couple issues here. The hard starting rough idle


I had an issue once on an engine long ago
Where all was fineon the freeway, all of a sudden the temp started coming up, and power started dropping, I pulled off and looked for leaks, none to be seen..
The ext manifolds were very hot,almost glowing, turned out the top timing gear bolt head had broke off and the key was badly sheared allowing the top timing gearto shift around and thus had basicly became way advanced,
Back home the engine idled disturbingly erratic and was hard as hell to start, being the fuel pump is a mechanical-ellipical device riding on an oval disk in there and has wild pressure is possibly some sort of indicator here, so I guess Im saying the internal timing gears could be an issue
Along with the all converter questions?
Sounds like the conv was working fine
For quite-aways thou
Just a thought…


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

ponchonlefty said:


> do you know how much power was put through it? how many miles have you put on the trans? im just asking to help figure whats happening.if it did not surge with the other converter i would think thats the problem. hope this will help.


Seller said the trans combo has around 2500 miles on it. Trans was super clean, so it is believable from a cosmetic perspective

I had about 40 miles of trouble free around-town miles. 2-3 <10 highway rides to test everything. the first 35 mile run ti the car show, then the overheating halfway home on the return trip.

It did not surge with the original trans/converter. ran great, but trans was beginning to slip and that was the reason for the swap.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Im hoping it's simple... and not more involved, but knowing how long youve been trying to get this sorted and resolved, I guess it's already not simple. 

All I can say is that if you do get the manual, I'll come to cali and help you install it all, swap the cam and curve a dizzy.

Just get me air fare, hookers, and cocaine...


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## BLK69JUDGE (Jun 10, 2010)

un bolt the converter from the flex plate and push it back
fire it up
does it still surge ??

it wont fix the bouncing fuel pressure ,,,
that sounds like a needle seat issue
or clogged filter or sock in tank.,,, bad hose sucking air ?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Is the fuel gauge liquid filled because my first cheap one did that from the pulsing of the pump, then the liquid filled one would go down to zero when hot. Found out the liquid would expand putting pressure on the spring or whatever senses pressure and pushed the needle to zero, drained some oil problem solved.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

armyadarkness said:


> Im hoping it's simple... and not more involved, but knowing how long youve been trying to get this sorted and resolved, I guess it's already not simple.
> 
> All I can say is that if you do get the manual, I'll come to cali and help you install it all, swap the cam and curve a dizzy.
> 
> Just get me air fare, hookers, and cocaine...


you da man, jimmy 🤟


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

BLK69JUDGE said:


> un bolt the converter from the flex plate and push it back
> fire it up
> does it still surge ??


 X 2 


I had a gear jump time. They replaced the gear and said I could make it back home to OKC. Tampa to OKC burning valves the entire way is not a fun 30 hours of driving.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

you mean uncouple it from the engine as a way of isolating it from the "equation"?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

ylwgto said:


> you mean uncouple it from the engine as a way of isolating it from the "equation"?


That's what we suggested to do yesterday. Rule out the engine. Can be done in less than 30 minutes. You haven't done it yet?


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

geeteeohguy said:


> That's what we suggested to do yesterday. Rule out the engine. Can be done in less than 30 minutes. You haven't done it yet?


No, but I will. Car is parked for a while while I head back east for work.

That'll be first thing I try when back.


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## Jetzster (Jan 18, 2020)

armyadarkness said:


> I'll come to cali and help you install it all, swap the cam and curve a dizzy.
> Just get me air fare, hookers, and cocaine...


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

ylwgto said:


> you mean uncouple it from the engine as a way of isolating it from the "equation"?


yes


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## Dave 68 (Nov 18, 2018)

I agree with Jetzster, sounds like a stretched timing chain or sheared key. On my '68 350 I put the fan through the radiator and drove it til it quit. I was planning on getting a 400 to build and didn't care if it blew. It locked up at the last stop sign near my house and I towed it home. Next day motor turned over, but no lifter movement. The timing chain had snapped. Put a new water pump, fan, radiator, timing chain and gear on and drove it 15 more years before rebuilding the entire thing with new heads. I was so impressed with the bullet proof 350, I never bought the 400. I would definitely check the chain, key, and gears before starting it again. Would explain the noise, hard starting, no power, etc....


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

Thanks, good thoughts. I had the engine front end down to the gears about 6 months and 300 miles ago. There was no slack and everything looked good. Timing was reset after rebuild...that's not to say somethin could have happened since, but it drove fine on the way to the shop then went to sh*t on the way home after some pretty tame driving. 

I'll check timing once I'm back with the car as well. At this point I'm not ruling anything out.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

ylwgto said:


> Thanks, good thoughts. I had the engine front end down to the gears about 6 months and 300 miles ago. There was no slack and everything looked good. Timing was reset after rebuild...that's not to say somethin could have happened since, but it drove fine on the way to the shop then went to sh*t on the way home after some pretty tame driving.
> 
> I'll check timing once I'm back with the car as well. At this point I'm not ruling anything out.


Im still hoping/ thinking that it's something simple.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Checking for jumped time is a 5 minute job. I'm 99% sure that's not the issue here. But it's easy to check. Turn it over to TDC compression on number one cylinder with it at 0 degrees on the balancer at the pointer, pop the dizzy cap and verify the rotor is pointed at #1 terminal. Easy as pie. You can also move the balancer pulley back and forth and watch the rotor for movement and measure your timing chain slack on the timing tag while you're at it. 
My gut says converter/trans or both.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

ylwgto said:


> So, on Saturday coming home from a car show my engine overheated. No issues whatsoever driving the 35 mile drive there. On the way back engine was running nicely at 180-190 fro about 20 miles. Then, while at speed (approx. 65-70 mph turning 3100ish RPM) the engine temp very quickly began to climb. I shut it down on the side of the Hwy at 220ish. Temp continued to climb and boiled over into my puke tank. Let the engine cool and restarted. Idled for 10m at 1200rpm and engine stayed cool at 180. Decided to get a tow home to avoid breaking down on a long bridge or further damaging something.
> 
> Before this my cooling was dialed in. New Flow kooler water pump, properly clearanced impeller plate, aluminum rad, 180 thermostat, dual SPAL fans properly shrouded...all new. No overheating issues at all.
> 
> ...


The range of the torque converter slip is somewhat based on the HP/TQ of the engine and gearing. First a 2,600 RPM stall is not slipping at 2,600 RPM's all the time and then grabs and goes at 2,700 RPM's. You have "loose" converters and "tight" converters. From what you said, you have a "tight" converter so it has a minimal slip at light/cruising throttle. When you nail the gas, that's when it spools up to the "guesstimated" stall speed of 2,600 RPM's - you have to applly full HP/TQ. A larger engine, more HP/TQ, might shock that converter hard and it'll zing up to 2,900 RPM's where as a smaller HP/TQ engine might only have enough zip to get 2,400 RPM's out of it. Think of the converter action like a spring. Big HP/TQ will wind it up tighter, smaller HP/TQ won't. Gearing also comes into play - 2.56 gearing will be like applying the brakes and the car will strain against the converter and may reach a higher stall than 4.11 gearing which strain less against the converter because the gearing allows a different torque multiplication as the car moves out quicker so less strain on the converter and it may reach a lower stall. This is just a simplification of how the converter works.

With that said, with a "tight" converter there is less slippage and thus less heat going into the trans and through the cooling tank on the radiator. For the short distance you went, I can[t see it getting that heated or heated enough over a long enough period to cause issue. If the trans overheated, all you have to do is smell the trans fluid - it WILL smelled burned and appear a darker brown if you used a red fluid. Did you correctly check the fluid level? The TH-400 is in Park/Neutral with the engine running. Mopar's are different and I kinda learned that with my Fury - it has to be in gear.

The fuel pressure gauge is all over the place. Read my sticky on testing the fuel pump/system. I think that is where you will find the surging coming from - fuel pump, fuel line, carb. Make sure the choke is not fluttering as that will cause surging. But, if the needle/seat were closing correctly, I would think that the needle would show a steady pressure when the needle was closed, and drop somewhat when the needle opened to fill the bowl and then go back up once the bowl was filled and the needle closed - so could be some junk under/in the needle/seat.

I would pull the valve covers and check all pushrods and rocker arms to makes sure nothing loose, bent, fallen off, or out of adjustment. If all looks well, then I would want to fire it up and observe pushrods spinning and all rockers operating at the same rate - could have a bad cam or collapsed lifter. If a flat tappet cam/lifters, you might want to zero lash them since you have some miles on the engine.

You trans installer could have forgotten something or something loosened up. I installed the trans/converter in my brother's car and he had a thumping noise that was consistent and hard to really pin point. Turned out one of the convert bolts had backed off/out and was hitting the block at one spot. I know I torqued all the bolts to spec, but crap happens. I should have used some Loctite in hindsight. He had to replace the converter as the bolt damaged th threads/hole and the tab the bolt inserts on the converter.

I don't think the overheating was due to the converter stall, but may have helped some. 3,000 RPM's in my book is a bit much and without the vacuum advance to help ignition timing and engine cooling, you are asking for an overheating situation- we have seen this a number of times again and again. So timing could also play into this at the higher RPM's.

So several things to look into.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

Thanks Jim, very good ideas all around. I appreciate the wisdom.

I think trans, because it’s the only thing I changed before this issue. But I admit I’ve been battling timing without vac advance for some time. I’ve also been battling my carb tuning, as you may recall.

so, perhaps a confluence of issues here. I’ll have to check them all once I get my hands back on the car.

I think the order I’ll proceed is
1. Check timing
2. Ensure fuel pump is moving fuel at a constant rate
3. Make sure converter isn’t shot by doing greetee’s suggestion
4. Instal my new trenec and sniper system…ha!

thanks all


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## Jetzster (Jan 18, 2020)

No worries ylw ,
We’ll get our best crew working on it while youre gone😀
it will be good as new when u get back!


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I haven't seen photos of beautiful young ladies with no tattoos in years. How _refreshing!_ Thank you!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

geeteeohguy said:


> I haven't seen photos of beautiful young ladies with no tattoos in years. How _refreshing!_ Thank you!


Because you are going to the wrong _flaming _bars with the wrong gender.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I'd like to see her at my local garage - they would be getting all my business and I would not care if they got it right..........because I would have to bring it back!


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## Duff (Jan 12, 2020)

Nice looking BABES, but ya can't beat the original!


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

PontiacJim said:


> Because you are going to the wrong _flaming _bars with the wrong gender.


Sorry, but tattoos are tacky as hell IMO, and on a woman, terrible. 
Cries out 'look at me, I'm special and edgy!' and shows that they make poor choices.
Just my opinion, of course.


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

geeteeohguy said:


> Sorry, but tattoos are tacky as hell IMO, and on a woman, terrible.
> Cries out 'look at me, I'm special and edgy!' and shows that they make poor choices.
> Just my opinion, of course.


you dont put bumper stickers on a ferrari.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

geeteeohguy said:


> Sorry, but tattoos are tacky as hell IMO, and on a woman, terrible.
> Cries out 'look at me, I'm special and edgy!' and shows that they make poor choices.
> Just my opinion, of course.


Eh. I used to care about this sort of thing. I'm at the point in life where I don't really care what others choose to do. My wife got her first tattoo ~15 years ago now. Like you, I was against this at the time but was quick to realize that it didn't change who she was. She now has several with a few more in the planning stage and I could not care any less. I even gave her a gift card for the last one because she was holding off because of the holidays. Her birthday is 3 days before Christmas and the early shot at some additional ink scored me some huge brownie points. My wife is not attention seeking at all. She has what she has because she likes them.

I hope this didn't come across as me being defensive or hostile. Just the opposite to be honest. I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I respect your thoughts and feelings.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

geeteeohguy said:


> Sorry, but tattoos are tacky as hell IMO, and on a woman, terrible.
> Cries out 'look at me, I'm special and edgy!' and shows that they make poor choices.
> Just my opinion, of course.


Hmmm. Guess I never thought of that. I thought both my lower arm tatoo's cried out "I always have a sexy woman on each arm wherever I go, or when in bed by myself it's a three-some or with a gal its a four-some, of FTW." Poor choices? Hmmmm. Looking back at life, I've lost much, but I will always have my tattoo's as they aren't going nowhere. BTW, I've had them so long that their boobs are sagging and their butts have gotten much wider - my tattoo artist never told me that this was going to happen. Oh, well, maybe I'm just special and an edgy type of car guy.


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## Duff (Jan 12, 2020)

When I was a kid (1960's) the ONLY people that I saw with tattoos were military veterans or convicts, now if you don't have any tats, you stand out. Tats on men are OK, almost got one, but decided there's no design I wanted to see everyday of my life, so it didn't happen. I don't care for them on women.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

You're special and edgy alright....tattoos or no. That's an old fashioned type tattoo of the sort men used to get in the service. Not the 'hip' full sleeve and floral and skull treatments we see so much of today, along with Asian writing and texts and sayings.


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## Duff (Jan 12, 2020)

Speaking of skull tattoos, What's up with that? Everywhere I look someone has a tattoo or window decal or bumper sticker of a skull. Is it a military thing or is todays society fixated on darkness and death?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Small colorful tats in the right place aren't bad on a woman but the dark green ink just doesn't look good, my wife's cousin is covered in them and she looks terrible imo. The wife got her belly button pierced and I think that's hot, don't want anything else pierced but ears and belly, I even buy her a new piece every Christmas 😉 I don't have any tats but if I did one arm would be the 6.5 litre badge or Pontiac arrow and the other arm would be a picture of my wife so I don't get in trouble 😀


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

Duff said:


> Speaking of skull tattoos, What's up with that? Everywhere I look someone has a tattoo or window decal or bumper sticker of a skull. Is it a military thing or is todays society fixated on darkness and death?


fads like tribal flames. probably punisher skulls.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

....well we've certainly fell down the rabbit hole of the thread haven't we 🤣


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Duff said:


> Speaking of skull tattoos, What's up with that? Everywhere I look someone has a tattoo or window decal or bumper sticker of a skull. Is it a military thing or is todays society fixated on darkness and death?


Skulls are supposed to be tough and edgy and make you a badass. Like having a pitbull without the hassle. It's a third grade mentality, IMO, but I guess I'm a high-toned snob.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

geeteeohguy said:


> Skulls are supposed to be tough and edgy and make you a badass. Like having a pitbull without the hassle. It's a third grade mentality, IMO, but I guess I'm a high-toned snob.


You're not high toned, you're just letting your age peak through. It's all good brother. You can't change who you are, and even if you could, would you want to? I'm a bit younger than most of the guys on here and probably feel a bit different about these sorts of things as a result. That being said, I agree with you on the choices that some folks make when it comes to this sort of thing. My wife doesn't have any of the stupid tribal things, Chinese symbols she can't read, or any of the other trendy designs folks seem to gravitate to. She has used tattoo art to highlight things that are important to her and her interests. There is a lot of nerd type things and a really nice copy of a picture from the Maurice Sendak book "little Bear" on her shoulder. It's the picture of the mother bear holding a sleeping little bear that she had just finished reading to, for those of you who may be familiar with the story. It was one of her earlier tattoos and probably my favorite she has. It fits her perfect because my wife is very similar to the mother bear in the story.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Baaad65 said:


> ....well we've certainly fell down the rabbit hole of the thread haven't we 🤣


What were we supposed to do? @ylwgto brought us this problem, then said he was going to be out of town for a while and won't have a chance to try any of our fixes until he gets back. @Jetzster puts up a few pictures of flashy girls and we all got distracted. That's like trying to teach a 5 year old to read and playing with a pile of Hotwheels within eyesight. I'll be surprised if we don't hit 100 replies on this thread and never get back to his car problems again. He had a front brake issue or something, no?


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## Duff (Jan 12, 2020)

geeteeohguy said:


> You're special and edgy alright....tattoos or no. That's an old fashioned type tattoo of the sort men used to get in the service. Not the 'hip' full sleeve and floral and skull treatments we see so much of today, along with Asian writing and texts and sayings.





PontiacJim said:


> Hmmm. Guess I never thought of that. I thought both my lower arm tatoo's cried out "I always have a sexy woman on each arm wherever I go, or when in bed by myself it's a three-some or with a gal its a four-some, of FTW." Poor choices? Hmmmm. Looking back at life, I've lost much, but I will always have my tattoo's as they aren't going nowhere. BTW, I've had them so long that their boobs are sagging and their butts have gotten much wider - my tattoo artist never told me that this was going to happen. Oh, well, maybe I'm just special and an edgy type of car guy.
> 
> View attachment 157007





Jared said:


> What were we supposed to do? @ylwgto brought us this problem, then said he was going to be out of town for a while and won't have a chance to try any of our fixes until he gets back. @Jetzster puts up a few pictures of flashy girls and we all got distracted. That's like trying to teach a 5 year old to read and playing with a pile of Hotwheels within eyesight. I'll be surprised if we don't hit 100 replies on this thread and never get back to his car problems again. He had a front brake issue or something, no?


At least 100 replies, we still have to cover piercings and studs!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Duff said:


> At least 100 replies, we still have to cover piercings and studs!



I _am _a STUD - does that count?


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## Duff (Jan 12, 2020)

We're about the same age, so I'm pretty sure the old studs have been put out in the back pasture.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I liked the line in Pulp Fiction where there's a tweaker chick with all kinds of face piercings and John Travolta says it 'looks like she did a face-plant in a tackle box'. 
Piercings don't look good on anybody, either. especially in the lips and nose. Gross.
How are you guys with face and neck tattoos, and eyeball tats?


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

Cracking up over here. 😂
I’ve got 3 tats, all obtained before age 23. Still like em 20 years later, so I guess I did ok. But man, there are some bad ones out there. Just go to a car show or gun show and they are on display…not sure what some people are thinking (or not thinkin).

lemme bring this home. What pressure reg should I get? I don’t want to change my fuel pump when back. Do they make combined filter/regulators as there’s not much room between the pump and the carb. Nothing crazy, this is just temporary as I will switch to Sniper throttle body system within a year (I’m willing it to happen).


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## Jetzster (Jan 18, 2020)

Lol,yep, sniper throttle body with a tat on it😆


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

Yep, getting the Limited Edition barbed wire version.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

geeteeohguy said:


> I liked the line in Pulp Fiction where there's a tweaker chick with all kinds of face piercings and John Travolta says it 'looks like she did a face-plant in a tackle box'.
> Piercings don't look good on anybody, either. especially in the lips and nose. Gross.
> How are you guys with face and neck tattoos, and eyeball tats?


Face and neck tats is where I draw the line.

...and up to 70.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

This Russian gal got her boyfriend's name tattooed on her face the day after she met him. Excellent life-choice, IMO.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Jared said:


> Face and neck tats is where I draw the line.
> 
> ...and up to 70.


Aren't face and neck tats associated with gangs? Was at a local show today where a guy was talking to me about the car and he has a small tat of person pushing a lawn mower on the bald spot on the upper back of his head...now that's funny 😄 A pretty hot girl in cowboy boots and some very cheeky Daisy Dukes had a bandanna tat around her thigh, I didn't hate it but would have been better with more color 😉.....oh ya we're supposed to be talking fuel regulators....boring 😀


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## Jetzster (Jan 18, 2020)

geeteeohguy said:


> This Russian gal got her boyfriend's name tattooed on her face the day after she met him. Excellent life-choice, IMO.
> View attachment 157029


Man , I hope things for them work out, every time she looks in a mirror there he is!😳


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

geeteeohguy said:


> This Russian gal got her boyfriend's name tattooed on her face the day after she met him. Excellent life-choice, IMO.
> View attachment 157029


Her parents must be so proud 🙄


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

My only tat was in the 4th grade. A kid did it at recess with an eraser. Lightning bolt my knuckle.

Step Dad WW2 Navy vet had hula girls on both arms that he could make dance.


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## Jetzster (Jan 18, 2020)

geeteeohguy said:


> This Russian gal got her boyfriend's name tattooed on her face the day after she met him. Excellent life-choice, IMO.
> View attachment 157029


It can be much worse


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Jetzster said:


> It can be much worse
> View attachment 157066


Thanks, I just threw up in my mouth 🤢 I like the girls you started this runnawy thread with much better 😀


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Jetzster said:


> It can be much worse
> View attachment 157066


Think she's single? You know, just in case the wife gets sick of my shenanigans and I need a backup plan. That is a girl right? 


Wow! Now I sound like one of the old guys too.


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## Jetzster (Jan 18, 2020)

Jared said:


> Think she's single? That is a girl right?


Unknown Jared, but one things for sure, its gonna be tough gettin thru an airport TSA scan..


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Jared said:


> Think she's single? You know, just in case the wife gets sick of my shenanigans and I need a backup plan. That is a girl right?
> 
> 
> Wow! Now I sound like one of the old guys too.


Jury is still out 😉


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Duff said:


> When I was a kid (1960's) the ONLY people that I saw with tattoos were military veterans or convicts, now if you don't have any tats, you stand out. Tats on men are OK, almost got one, but decided there's no design I wanted to see everyday of my life, so it didn't happen. I don't care for them on women.


In Jersey, you wont find a girl over the age of 15, without a tattoo.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

armyadarkness said:


> In Jersey, you wont find a girl over the age of 15, without a tattoo.


Saw a pasty/pale fat redheaded girl at an Interstate 5 rest stop a couple of years ago. She had about 30 butterflies with human skull heads on her legs. From foot to the bottom of her shorts and likely, beyond. Ugly blue-black death's heads. YUCK.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

geeteeohguy said:


> Saw a pasty/pale fat redheaded girl at an Interstate 5 rest stop a couple of years ago. She had about 30 butterflies with human skull heads on her legs. From foot to the bottom of her shorts and likely, beyond. Ugly blue-black death's heads. YUCK.


Oh crappers. That was the stripper I hired for your next birthday.


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## Duff (Jan 12, 2020)

geeteeohguy said:


> Saw a pasty/pale fat redheaded girl at an Interstate 5 rest stop a couple of years ago. She had about 30 butterflies with human skull heads on her legs. From foot to the bottom of her shorts and likely, beyond. Ugly blue-black death's heads. YUCK.


Butterflies or flies?


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

BTW. I'm determined to make this string out to over 100 posts. Then I can get back to doing something constructive like fixing the dishwasher, again.

Honestly, the tattoo thing doesn't bother me. My huge gripe with society as a whole is when did it become acceptable to wear pajamas out in public? I was at my favorite nature spot a few weeks back. The trails there are rocky in some spots and marshy in others. I come up the trail on this couple (younger than me) that are moving at a pace slower than stink. The woman was wearing pajamas. The guy was wearing sweat pants, and those slides sandals with socks on. Neither of them was in a hurry to get anywhere fast (or to move out of the way so I could get by them).

Now I'm irritated all over again


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Jared said:


> BTW. I'm determined to make this string out to over 100 posts. Then I can get back to doing something constructive like fixing the dishwasher, again.
> 
> Honestly, the tattoo thing doesn't bother me. My huge gripe with society as a whole is when did it become acceptable to wear pajamas out in public? I was at my favorite nature spot a few weeks back. The trails there are rocky in some spots and marshy in others. I come up the trail on this couple (younger than me) that are moving at a pace slower than stink. The woman was wearing pajamas. The guy was wearing sweat pants, and those slides sandals with socks on. Neither of them was in a hurry to get anywhere fast (or to move out of the way so I could get by them).
> 
> Now I'm irritated all over again


Exactly, don't get it at all how people can where out what I lay on the couch in when I have the flu 🤯


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I think it's safe to say that millennials in pajamas and sandals aren't too active on car forums. If they drive at all, their vehicle of choice is most certainly a Subaru with a myriad of stickers on the back hatch reading 'co-exist', 'save our planet', 'Obama '08', etc. etc.....


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## Jetzster (Jan 18, 2020)

geeteeohguy said:


> I think it's safe to say that millennials in pajamas and sandals aren't too active on car forums. If they drive at all, their vehicle of choice is most certainly a Subaru with a myriad of stickers on the back hatch reading 'co-exist', 'save our planet', 'Obama '08', etc. etc.....


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## Jetzster (Jan 18, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> Exactly, don't get it at all how people can where out what I lay on the couch in when I have the flu 🤯


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## 4rd4fun (Oct 24, 2019)

This has been a lot of fun to read!!!


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

Dont get me started I about the PJ thing. The schools have PJ day once a week and we grew up having nightmares that we showed up at school that way. I love that teachers on in service days park in all the no parking zone so that deliveries can take place. I am sure my kids tell them the things I say (thier dumber than a box of rocks). Cause I tell them at meet the teacher and all the other meetings. Then they start spewing "safety" so the kids run around being scarred all day. I have a different perspective having kids in school for the last 17 years and still have 2 in pre K. So they are not getting rid of me anytime soon.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Holy cow, this post is back! It lost steam there and now it's back. We only have a few more complaints to make it to 100. I somehow missed that the Walmart girl's PJs had skulls on them.


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## Duff (Jan 12, 2020)

Friggin skulls are EVERYWHERE, I'd rather see boobs, I don't get it!


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## Jetzster (Jan 18, 2020)

Duff said:


> I'd rather see boobs


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Duff said:


> Friggin skulls are EVERYWHERE, I'd rather see boobs, I don't get it!


I don't know. Did you see the one wearing said pajamas? May not quite fit the fantasy.

And 5 to go. Come on guys, we can do it! @Jetzster may not have helped the cause much. You know, popular GTO (in resale red), fairly attractive girl with no tats and a patriotic outfit. Not much to discuss there. 

I'm up early and am bored. Have a great day guys and girls! We must have one or two on here right? Unless we chased them away with this thread?


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

Well lets hear it for base 10 then. Glad we don't use hexadecimal or you would be at it for a while. I am really shocked that there aren't more accidents people watching the odometer flip over instead of watching the road. May be that's the reason they added the extra digit.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Jetzster said:


> View attachment 157813


What do you think she's fixing with that big of a wrench, can't think of anything...and where's her safety glasses 😃


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

Jetzster said:


> View attachment 157813


that will make you feel patriotic.


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## Duff (Jan 12, 2020)

Jetzster said:


> View attachment 157813


CURVY with No tats, me LIKE!


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Baaad65 said:


> What do you think she's fixing with that big of a wrench, can't think of anything...and where's her safety glasses 😃


Hah! I saw the wrench after awhile, and thought the same thing. Pinon nut, perhaps? Nothing else under the car that size.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

geeteeohguy said:


> Hah! I saw the wrench after awhile, and thought the same thing. Pinon nut, perhaps? Nothing else under the car that size.


That's some big nuts


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

geeteeohguy said:


> Hah! I saw the wrench after awhile, and thought the same thing. Pinon nut, perhaps? Nothing else under the car that size.


Maybe the spindle nut? But the car still has it's tires on. I call shenanigans on this one. There's no way she's working on that car. No grease up to he elbows, she's not bleeding out of 6 knuckles, and she doesn't look frustrated. And there I thought we had found the perfect girl for @geeteeohguy


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Jared said:


> Maybe the spindle nut? But the car still has it's tires on. I call shenanigans on this one. There's no way she's working on that car. No grease up to he elbows, she's not bleeding out of 6 knuckles, and she doesn't look frustrated. And there I thought we had found the perfect girl for @geeteeohguy


All curves and no tatts certainly works for me!!!


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## Duff (Jan 12, 2020)

geeteeohguy said:


> Hah! I saw the wrench after awhile, and thought the same thing. Pinon nut, perhaps? Nothing else under the car that size.


She's probably just being prepared in case she runs into some really big nuts, that'd be my guess.


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

Duff said:


> She's probably just being prepared in case she runs into some big nuts, that'd be my guess.


deez nuts. she could just hand me wrenches or polish them.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

ponchonlefty said:


> deez nuts. she could just hand me wrenches or polish them.


I thought that was going read "she could hand tighten the nuts" when I started reading 🤣


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## Jetzster (Jan 18, 2020)

geeteeohguy said:


> Hah! I saw the wrench after awhile, and thought the same thing. Pinon nut, perhaps? Nothing else under the car that size.


 Girth measurement device?🤔


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

I keep telling you Jetzster, they need to be WAY nerdier than that. I'm a strange guy and like the girl next door look. Nerdier the better. I've always had a thing for smart girls.


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

Jared said:


> I keep telling you Jetzster, they need to be WAY nerdier than that. I'm a strange guy and like the girl next door look. Nerdier the better. I've always had a thing for smart girls.


intelligence is attractive in a woman.


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## Jetzster (Jan 18, 2020)

Jared said:


> I keep telling you Jetzster, they need to be WAY nerdier than that. I'm a strange guy and like the girl next door look. Nerdier the better. I've always had a thing for smart girls.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

ponchonlefty said:


> intelligence is attractive in a woman.


But lets not discount the naive ones either! Now wheres my popcorn bucket with the hole in the bottom...


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Jetzster said:


> View attachment 157862


There you go, and even reading a Chiltons service manual 🤣


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Jetzster said:


> View attachment 157862


My daughter loved the song that this was the video for when she was little. Yes, this type of nerdy is good.


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