# Sticky  Flat Tappet Cam and Lifter Failures



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

As most of you folks know, I am a fan of old-school tech and old-school parts. That means points ignition, carburetion, and flat tappet camshafts. 
For the past 15 years, there has been a global epidemic of camshaft and lifter failure that has really hurt our 'hobby' and has caused many car enthusiasts to throw in the towel. Initially, it was the removal of ZDDP in engine oil around 2005 that was blamed, and that is valid---to a point. The main issue now is lack of quality control--- now that most parts are made off-shore. I've done a lot or research and have heard a lot of things. I'll be brief:
It seems that most 'new' lifters are actually 'refurbished' from cores. If needed, the internal bore of the lifter is honed oversized and a new plunger is installed. The problem? The new plungers are only available in standard bore. So, you get a new lifter, fill it with oil, and if it squirts past the plunger when you push down on it, it's no good. Other lifters are ground on the foot to restore the surface. Lifters are ground convex, to a 'crown' , and a good lifter will rock if you put it foot down on a piece of glass. It HAS to have a crown or it will not spin. Many 'new' lifters are ground flat, and will fail. 

As a retired auto tech and industry guy, I watch Uncle Tony's Garage on youtube. Every episode. The man has common-sense skills and has valuable information in each video. Also, he's a great guy. He recently went through THREE SETS of lifters from Jegs or Summit to make ONE good set of lifters. It's gotten that bad. 
He has also run into issues with camshafts that won't fit into the block due to oversized journals. He's never seen this one before, and has been building engines for decades. Like myself, he never had seen a cam go flat in his life until recently. And we're talking 100's of engine builds here. No failures at all. 
Tony has also recently found camshafts with no taper ground into the lobes. No taper means no spinning. which means a flat cam in 5 minutes. 
DD speed shop just had this happen in a 454 Chev. Defective cam from the jump. Lifter never spun, cam and lifter failed, engine failed. 

Originally it was thought parts were not hardened properly, but Uncle Tony has a friend who had a bunch of failed cams and lifters checked, and ALL of them passed the hardness test. So why did they fail? No taper on the cam lobe or lobes, and no crown on the lifters, or a bit of both. This is good for us, because at home, we can actually check a cam for taper BEFORE we put it in the engine and have it fail on us!

The take-away is that you need to measure every cam lobe on your new cam BEFORE you install it. Each lobe should vary by .002-.003" in height per lobe, at each edge. Also oil fill and bleed test and rock test the lifters. Uncle Tony figures that if the cam passes the taper test and the lifters pass, you can do your 20-30 minute run in and be good to go forever. There is no need to go with an expensive and IMO, failure-prone roller set-up if you verify your parts prior to installing them. 
Check out Uncle Tony's Garage on youtube if you haven't already. Great stuff for the home guy on a budget. 
Jeff


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

geeteeohguy said:


> As most of you folks know, I am a fan of old-school tech and old-school parts. That means points ignition, carburetion, and flat tappet camshafts.
> For the past 15 years, there has been a global epidemic of camshaft and lifter failure that has really hurt our 'hobby' and has caused many car enthusiasts to throw in the towel. Initially, it was the removal of ZDDP in engine oil around 2005 that was blamed, and that is valid---to a point. The main issue now is lack of quality control--- now that most parts are made off-shore. I've done a lot or research and have heard a lot of things. I'll be brief:
> It seems that most 'new' lifters are actually 'refurbished' from cores. If needed, the internal bore of the lifter is honed oversized and a new plunger is installed. The problem? The new plungers are only available in standard bore. So, you get a new lifter, fill it with oil, and if it squirts past the plunger when you push down on it, it's no good. Other lifters are ground on the foot to restore the surface. Lifters are ground convex, to a 'crown' , and a good lifter will rock if you put it foot down on a piece of glass. It HAS to have a crown or it will not spin. Many 'new' lifters are ground flat, and will fail.
> 
> ...


yes, i watched the video and was very informative. the guy that tested the rockwell hardness was myvintageiron7512. was also informative.


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## chrisn (2 mo ago)

shell rotella t oil has the zinc we need


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

chrisn said:


> shell rotella t oil has the zinc we need


I've been using it for the past 20 years in all my flat tappet cars with zero issues. Tons and tons of miles.


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## RA70CPE (12 mo ago)

You are spot on about the flat tappet cam and lifter failures. I posted my cam failure issue a few months ago, and learned a valuable ( and costly ) lesson about using the wrong oil. I now use only 
"Lucas" Hot Rod and Classic Oil, that has the increased amount of zinc additive needed to protect the cam and lifters.


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## chrisn (2 mo ago)

ive got a chevy 383 in the garage right now with cam failure from no zinc oil the boy was pissed , but were doing a hydrolic roller conversion to it expensive job 2500 for the kit


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

chrisn said:


> ive got a chevy 383 in the garage right now with cam failure from no zinc oil the boy was pissed , but were doing a hydrolic roller conversion to it expensive job 2500 for the kit


A few of us use ram air roller cams. Butler sells them.


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## kobold (Jan 5, 2019)

I use ROWE Vintage, having a high zinc level ( they said....).
No problems till now.
(don't know if its available in the states...)


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

chrisn said:


> ive got a chevy 383 in the garage right now with cam failure from no zinc oil the boy was pissed , but were doing a hydrolic roller conversion to it expensive job 2500 for the kit


When I rebuilt the 383 Chevy in my '61 Corvette, I inspected and re-used the 45 year old cam and lifters since they were Crane USA made and in perfect shape. No worries and no money spent. My whole rebuild was $700 total. I couldn't believe an entire FelPro overhaul gasket set was $38. Try doing _that _with a Pontiac!


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## AZTempest (Jun 11, 2019)

I had been out of the old car game until about five years ago. Then I started working on my old convertible. What I was reading about flat tappets and zinc gave me a good scare. I still try to read everyones posts and opinions on the subject. 

UTG just came out with another video about zinc content that I had given much thought to in the past. If zinc is required, just how much is needed? I remember when lead was being fazed out of the gas. Everyone I knew was saying to get rid of your leaded vehicles as the valves will go bad and we will be rebuilding heads every week. I still run my old heads with no lead additives and have yet to have to rebuild my heads. I put on about 4000 miles a year over the past 5 years and still going. Will they need rebuilding sooner than later. Perhaps, but I'll deal with it then. 

Back to cams. Just how much zinc is "needed" for a properly broke in cam to maintain it's life? Me, like most people don't want to test the theory and will continue to run zinc as long as it's available. But with all the information I have soaked in about the subject leads me to feel that it is more quality control of cams and lifters than the oil. Geeteeohguy made me think a bit. Back in the day nobody I knew reused cams or lifters. They just automatically bought new without even considering if they were worn or not. I've usually been in the mindset of if it's not broke don't fix it. Performance upgrade would be another story.


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## lust4speed (Jul 5, 2019)

First thing I might mention is that oil companies had to adjust oil levels to be in compliance with the EPA, and they issued guidelines because high levels of zinc and phosphorous were clogging up new car converters. New cars have roller lifters and don't need or want higher levels of ZDDP. Any oil that is being sold for street use has to meet federal guidelines, and that means those oils cannot meet the levels required for our classic flat tappet cams. That oil you've been using for 20 years isn't the same oil you used back when even though the name hasn't changed. There are a lot of street oils available that have reduced the levels down to around 800. They would be fine with an additive that raises the ZDDP levels but that additive cost money and it might be cheaper to just start with a higher ZDDP level. Even Valvoline racing has dropped down to 1,400 zinc and 1300 phosphorus.

I looked up Lucas and their Hot Rod and break-in oils are way up there in ZDDP. Hot Rod oil spec sheet on their site claims 2,100 for zinc and 1,900 for phosphorus. I always thought somewhere between 1,600 and 1,800 was the ideal ratio but I'll concede the point to Lucas. Their break-in oil is listed at a ridiculous level of 3,634 for zinc.

Now the elephant in the room. There was a time several years ago where the white box lifters were soft and always failed regardless of precautions or oil used. Most people are probably aware also that there are cams that are marketed by Summit, Jegs, Edelbrock and other cam suppliers that all come from the same source. They didn't even change the white box on the lifters but at least put the cams in their own boxes. I had two failures back to back with a very popular cam and lifter combo from a major supplier. They were going to send me a third set when I pleaded for just issuing me a credit and I would go with a Crower cam and lifters. They did, I did, and that Crower cam and lifter kit is purring along 30,000 miles and years later. One of the two failures happened on the break-in stand and destroyed the lifter and cam within 15 minutes. Soft material doesn't begin to describe those lifters. Things are better now but flat tappet cams and lifters are still a scary proposition. Of the last 30 hydraulic flat tappet cams I've pulled out of engines with most being aftermarket cams from months ago to years ago, I wouldn't chance putting any one of them back in. they all showed at least initial signs of failure, and some were gone and making noise. It's sort of the "you can pay me know or you can pay me latter..." thing. You can save initial cost and go with a flat tappet, but sooner or later that flat tappet will fail and you will either be buying another or upgrading to a roller.


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## Boomstick (Sep 13, 2021)

How is mellings reputation for cams and lifters? i bought their 068 and lifter set from summit a while back and am going to be putting it in here soon...


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## AZTempest (Jun 11, 2019)

lust4speed said:


> First thing I might mention is that oil companies had to adjust oil levels to be in compliance with the EPA, and they issued guidelines because high levels of zinc and phosphorous were clogging up new car converters. New cars have roller lifters and don't need or want higher levels of ZDDP. Any oil that is being sold for street use has to meet federal guidelines, and that means those oils cannot meet the levels required for our classic flat tappet cams. That oil you've been using for 20 years isn't the same oil you used back when even though the name hasn't changed. There are a lot of street oils available that have reduced the levels down to around 800. They would be fine with an additive that raises the ZDDP levels but that additive cost money and it might be cheaper to just start with a higher ZDDP level. Even Valvoline racing has dropped down to 1,400 zinc and 1300 phosphorus.
> 
> I looked up Lucas and their Hot Rod and break-in oils are way up there in ZDDP. Hot Rod oil spec sheet on their site claims 2,100 for zinc and 1,900 for phosphore us. I always thought somewhere between 1,600 and 1,800 was the ideal ratio but I'll concede the point to Lucas. Their break-in oil is listed at a ridiculous level of 3,634 for zinc.


Thanks for the info. It still kind of leaves a question of what is enough zinc. If new oils cannot meet the levels required for our classic flat tappet cams, what is enough? Anything over 800? 1200? 
The higher the better? Everyone I've talked to agrees we need the proper amount but it would be nice to have a known number. What would peoples opinions be of running say 5Qts of VR1 and adding a Qt of Lucas break-in oil for everyday use?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

AZTempest said:


> Thanks for the info. It still kind of leaves a question of what is enough zinc. If new oils cannot meet the levels required for our classic flat tappet cams, what is enough? Anything over 800? 1200?
> The higher the better? Everyone I've talked to agrees we need the proper amount but it would be nice to have a known number. What would peoples opinions be of running say 5Qts of VR1 and adding a Qt of Lucas break-in oil for everyday use?


*The traditional recommendation* has been to select oil containing more than 1200 ppm of both zinc and phosphorous, the constituents which make the anti-wear agent known as ZDDP. However a high level of ZDDP does not guarantee a motor oil provides a high level of wear protection.

Do NOT use an oil with detergents, so use a break-in oil for the first run up to break in the cam/lifters.

Brad Penn oil is formulated to eliminate the lubrication concerns of Pontiac owners. The oil has all of the necessary ZDDP - zinc (1,500 ppm) and phosphorus (1,340 ppm) - that is required for any type of camshaft or valve spring pressure. No further additives are required.

In addition, you should have lubricated the cam lobes and lifter bases with an engine assembly grease, not a liquid that will run/drip off. If using dual springs, some cam manufacturers will recommend removing the inner spring.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

AZTempest said:


> Thanks for the info. It still kind of leaves a question of what is enough zinc. If new oils cannot meet the levels required for our classic flat tappet cams, what is enough? Anything over 800? 1200?
> The higher the better? Everyone I've talked to agrees we need the proper amount but it would be nice to have a known number. *What would peoples opinions be of running say 5Qts of VR1 and adding a Qt of Lucas break-in oil for everyday use?*


I'd say a huge *NO!!!!!* on this. There are way better ways to do this without blending your own cocktail.

While you will up the zinc content of the oil in your engine, you will be short on some of the other additives you need for daily driving. Break in oils have a ton of zinc to condition the cam shaft and other high pressure contact points in the engine. They are also missing, or way short, on some of the anti-wear additives. This is done to promote some wear, especially along the cylinder walls and rings to promote proper seating. This is why break in oil should only be used for breaking in the cam shaft and the first couple hundred miles or so of driving. If you run this long tern, You will wear out your engine very quickly. Same goes for running a full out race oil on the street. It has a ton of zinc, and a ton of anti-wear additives, but they typically lack anything to deal with corrosion and moisture control. Reason being is a race car doesn't need those things. A serious racer is going to change the oil way before any of those issues come into play so the oil does not need to have them for the application.

My recommendation is to get the correct oil for your car and don't worry about the price. This came up a while ago and I broke down the price difference at the time. My engine holds close to 10 quarts of oil. The difference between a Rotella oil change (cheap) and a Driven oil change (too expensive) is less than $15. This oil change will last me a full season, so once per year. $15 dollars extra per year barely takes me to McDonalds for lunch once (although I do like a Big Mac, but times are not that tough yet where I have to choose between the two). Driven has all of the correct additives for a high strung gasoline powered engine with a flat tappet cam. Rotella has all of the correct additives for a Semi or farm tractor. This would probably be fine for a stock style build and many run like this for years. No way I'd risk it in mine at the power level I'm making along with the time and money I have invested in it.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

And for the record, you shouldnt even blend brands, let alone formulations. 

Each manufacturer has their own cocktail, and while all of the base oil is the same, and blendable, you have no way of knowing, for example, if Texaco's additive would react with Penzoils additive.

Same goes for fuel. *All* gasoline is the same, at the refinery. The only thing that the brands need to do, in order to legally make their claims, is to "change it" from how it left the refinery, and EVERY seller (Exxon, Hess, Sunoco, Texaco, Shell) uses a batch mix method, legally referred to as "over the road". 

All tankers leave the refinery with "unbranded" fuel, and then the additive is added to the tanker before it leaves. It mixes when the driver stops, goes, and hits bumps, and the additive is only a few gallons, against the tankers 20,000.

But fuel injected cars do adjust for the fuel, so if you change brands at every fill up, you're not helping your milage or performance, and you're not getting any of the benefits of the additives.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

There IS such a thing as too much ZDDP in an in-service flat tappet engine. You want 1200-1500 ppm. No more is needed or wanted. 
I've been running Rotella in all my flat tappet cars for the past 20+ years now and many, many miles with no issues whatsoever. I'll add that when I pulled the 400 in my '67 to reseal it 11 years ago, the internals were clean as a whistle and the bearings still looked new. Engine had 80,000+ miles on it since the '80's rebuild I did.


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## AZTempest (Jun 11, 2019)

Thanks all. This is what I like, good real world info and experience. I'm open to trying other brands but for the record I've been using VR1. I was sold on Valvoline years ago. 01 Sport Trac - 320,000. 93 Aerostar - 226,000, among others.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Did you check out Driven oils?


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

I have had one oil related failure. The oil ran out the crack in the case when my wife tried to mow a tree stump and kept on going. I use Rotella on the farm equipment and my 1970s and 80s cars. Brad Penn on my 1960s cars, and house brand on the modern plastic wonder cars.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

AZTempest said:


> Thanks all. This is what I like, good real world info and experience. I'm open to trying other brands but for the record I've been using VR1. I was sold on Valvoline years ago. 01 Sport Trac - 320,000. 93 Aerostar - 226,000, among others.


There are many brands that do have what is needed for the flat tappet engines some of old dinosaurs still run. These manufacturers will generally state this as they want your business like anyone else. BUT, ZDDP is not the only thing to look at, it is just one thing of concern.

I usually buy my oil at Walmart and typically use the Valvoline conventional oil in my Hyundai. Seems that it has not been available for my last few times and I am using the synthetic blend versus full synthetic. I could go to an auto parts store and buy it, but their prices are really stupid. (NAPA had Type F trans fluid for $10.49 a quart - stupid pricing)

I still prefer and will use a conventional mineral based oil on my old cars rather than the synthetic blends or full synthetics. My reasoning is that I feel, from my research, that the mineral based oils add more "cushion" than synthetics as synthetics are "thinner', ie runny. Sure the oil weights are the same, mineral 15-40 vs synthetic 15-40, and they do the job as the engine is running AND you have the bearing clearances (typically tighter) to run the synthetics. But shut the engine down, and the synthetics can seep away or become compressed (squeezed) out - like from the weight of the crankshaft with the torque converter/flywheel and rods/pistons pulling it down onto the bearings via mother nature and a thing called gravity. Fire up the engine and just for that instant before oil from the oil pump hits the bearings, you experience wear due to lack of lubricant. Yep, it may be hardly anything, but over time each start up brings on more wear. With mineral based oils, it clings better the metal/bearing surfaces and isn't so easily squeezed out because it is thicker from the get go.

But, if you tighten up the bearing clearances to take into account the use of the thinner and better flowing characteristics of synthetics, you still have to realize how much our big heavy cast iron engines expand and contract - so in my mind, tightening up the bearing clearances may look good on paper and coincide with the synthetic oil, but how about when that engine is running hot when those summer months hit and you are in that stop/go traffic. I personally want the standard factory bearing specs as a minimum, or a little more if you plan on exercising your engine build - for the same reason drag racers open up bearing clearances for high RPM blasts. Wider clearances are basically oil leaks. If synthetics are thinner by nature and can flow more readily, do I want to be opening up bearing clearances to increase those oil leaks?

Keep in mind that modern engines are a completely different animal. I dare anyone to use a 0W-16 or 0W-20 weight oil in their Pontiac engine build. Let me know how that works out for you.

*MY OPINION*, so take this rant for what it is worth because sometimes I am drunk, with a NJ hooker, and get things wrong. BUT in my opinion, I want to at least us a conventional mineral based oil for the first few thousand miles on my flat tappet cam/lifter engine. Maybe after that good break-in time, I might think about a synthetic blend if it was all I could get. But as long as companies still make mineral based oil for our old cars (even at higher prices) I would go that route. And if Rotella T4 15W-40 is still around (knowing my engine bearing clearances and oil pump pressure), that is what I would default to until they reformulate it to something lesser or simply get rid of it.


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> *The traditional recommendation* has been to select oil containing more than 1200 ppm of both zinc and phosphorous, the constituents which make the anti-wear agent known as ZDDP. However a high level of ZDDP does not guarantee a motor oil provides a high level of wear protection.
> 
> Do NOT use an oil with detergents, so use a break-in oil for the first run up to break in the cam/lifters.
> 
> ...


The "Green Stuff" is all I've ever used.....


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## tallrandyb (Jun 12, 2021)

geeteeohguy said:


> There IS such a thing as too much ZDDP in an in-service flat tappet engine. You want 1200-1500 ppm. No more is needed or wanted.
> I've been running Rotella in all my flat tappet cars for the past 20+ years now and many, many miles with no issues whatsoever. I'll add that when I pulled the 400 in my '67 to reseal it 11 years ago, the internals were clean as a whistle and the bearings still looked new. Engine had 80,000+ miles on it since the '80's rebuild I did.


So if I'm running 6 quarts of VR-1 and adding a 4oz bottle of ZDDPlus in every oil change, what adverse effect would you expect? Last Blackstone test I ran on Pennzoil 10w30 + 4oz ZDDPlus showed 1697 Zinc and 1599 Phosphorus. Looks like VR-1 contains 1400 Zinc and 1300 Phosphorus, likely not needing ZDDPlus 4oz additive (but more expensive!).


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Too much ZDDP can raise the acid levels in the oil and cause bearing and internal parts degradation. Not good.


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## gtojoe68 (Jan 4, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> There are many brands that do have what is needed for the flat tappet engines some of old dinosaurs still run. These manufacturers will generally state this as they want your business like anyone else. BUT, ZDDP is not the only thing to look at, it is just one thing of concern.
> 
> I usually buy my oil at Walmart and typically use the Valvoline conventional oil in my Hyundai. Seems that it has not been available for my last few times and I am using the synthetic blend versus full synthetic. I could go to an auto parts store and buy it, but their prices are really stupid. (NAPA had Type F trans fluid for $10.49 a quart - stupid pricing)
> 
> ...


This is really gospel. after reading much of the oil opinions and countless threads, PJ really breaks this down nicely. It is all in the clearances and the build. When I (foolishly) had synthetic 5W-20 in my expensive (to me - $4k is not chicken feed) freshly rebuilt (to RA2 spec) motor, it leaked and I had valvetrain noise at the upper RPM. My builder is a respected Buick builder and quite good. I will say, his dedication to synthetic oil and the press around heat loss etc etc. - it gave me pause about the quality of my build. I quickly moved to the Rotella 15W-40 route and have had no issues since. If you have a seriously built up race motor (425hp and up) - go ahead and buy oil at $10-15 a qt, Driven - Brad Penn etc. Why not.


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## extinctmake (Feb 8, 2011)

Hey geeteeohguy. It's been a while since I've chatted with you. I can lend a little insight here. I had my numbers-matching 389 rebuilt by Willard Automotive Machine in Omaha. He's done machine work for Pontiac engine builds for Rocky Rotella in his books and articles.

When it came time to select a cam, Chuck did not want to use a flat tappet cam for the reasons being outlined in this forum. He wanted to use a hydraulic roller setup. I was reluctant to go that route because Chuck has a 4 7 swap cam in mind, and I didn't want to change the firing order of my engine. I explained I have a restored car and I wanted to maintain that status. I suggested a 068 cam and Chuck countered that more modern grinds will work better. 

In the end, Chuck procured a Howards Max Certified cam and lifter kit. Chuck has had good luck with Howard's products. The Max Certified line comes with a five-year warranty. The profile of my cam is identical to the Street Force 2 cam Howards offers. Chuck properly broke in the cam, and I use Penn Grade oil that has the ZDDP needed for flat tappet cams. I do not use any oil additives. I've had good luck so far with the Howards cam and lifters. Chuck added roller-tipped rocker arms from Comp Cams. 

If I had to do it over again, I would have splurged for the hydraulic roller cam. I just would have consulted with Chuck about using one that didn't alter the firing order of my engine. Howards could have custom ground a cam for my application. If I ever build another engine, I will use a roller valve train. It is more expensive to use the roller cam. I recommend the Howards Max Certified line for anyone who wants to use a flat tappet cam. 

Merry Xmas everybody.


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## ponchonlefty (8 mo ago)

guys comp cams may have a solution to this problem. dlc lifters. they claim these lifters and cam combo dont need a break in and can run the regular oil. the lifters are coated with something and are wear resistant. this may be the ticket.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

geeteeohguy said:


> Too much ZDDP can raise the acid levels in the oil and cause bearing and internal parts degradation. Not good.





gtojoe68 said:


> This is really gospel. after reading much of the oil opinions and countless threads, PJ really breaks this down nicely. It is all in the clearances and the build. When I (foolishly) had synthetic 5W-20 in my expensive (to me - $4k is not chicken feed) freshly rebuilt (to RA2 spec) motor, it leaked and I had valvetrain noise at the upper RPM. My builder is a respected Buick builder and quite good. I will say, his dedication to synthetic oil and the press around heat loss etc etc. - it gave me pause about the quality of my build. I quickly moved to the Rotella 15W-40 route and have had no issues since. If you have a seriously built up race motor (425hp and up) - go ahead and buy oil at $10-15 a qt, Driven - Brad Penn etc. Why not.


So, now I am wondering if I'm OK still running the break in formulation Driven oil even after break in is complete. I think that's what Butler recommended to me when they built my short block. I have continued to use the break in fomulation with each oil change and have noticed no problems but it's probably costing me more than the non break in Driven oil. Could I be causing problems other than spending too much?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

ponchonlefty said:


> guys comp cams may have a solution to this problem. dlc lifters. they claim these lifters and cam combo dont need a break in and can run the regular oil. the lifters are coated with something and are wear resistant. this may be the ticket.


Several of the failed lifters and cams I have seen recently all came from Comp Cams. 
That said, I have built two engines with Comp Cams and lifters, but the last one was 12 years ago. 
As long as I measured the cam lobes for taper and checked the lifters for crown and leakdown, I would be ok with whatever. 
I don't like roller cams/lifters, at least not aftermarket ones, because I've seen too many nice blocks destroyed by those rock hard, pesky little needle bearings that seem to fall out of the valvetrain quite often. 
The next old engine I build will be built with NOS valvetrain parts that I verify. 
Mike----Break in oil is for break in. It does NOT contain the additive package needed for a street driven car. Use the Driven street use oil.


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## gtojoe68 (Jan 4, 2019)

michaelfind said:


> So, now I am wondering if I'm OK still running the break in formulation Driven oil even after break in is complete. I think that's what Butler recommended to me when they built my short block. I have continued to use the break in fomulation with each oil change and have noticed no problems but it's probably costing me more than the non break in Driven oil. Could I be causing problems other than spending too much?


I'm gonna let the more seasoned fellas here respond to this.... PJ, Army, GeeTeeOhGuy etc. you guys know who you are. IMHO, I would NOT run break-in oil as a mix. As I said earlier, the Rotella fine for my mild build. Run the expensive stuff if you want but break-in oil is just that.... break-in oil.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

michaelfind said:


> So, now I am wondering if I'm OK still running the break in formulation Driven oil even after break in is complete. I think that's what Butler recommended to me when they built my short block. I have continued to use the break in fomulation with each oil change and have noticed no problems but it's probably costing me more than the non break in Driven oil. Could I be causing problems other than spending too much?





gtojoe68 said:


> I'm gonna let the more seasoned fellas here respond to this.... PJ, Army, GeeTeeOhGuy etc. you guys know who you are. IMHO, I would NOT run break-in oil as a mix. As I said earlier, the Rotella fine for my mild build. Run the expensive stuff if you want but break-in oil is just that.... break-in oil.


I can't believe anyone would recommend you do this. Break in oils are missing some of the additives that your engine needs and are for short term use only. They are designed to prevent wear at high pressure areas (cam lobes etc) while allowing those areas to polish. At the same time they do promote some wear to aid in setting the rings etc. My guess is Butler probably recommended you do your cam break in, change the oil and replace with fresh break in oil, drive for a few hundred miles, then change it again for a high zinc level engine oil (conventional or synthetic is fine if you use the correct weight). That's exactly what Comp recommended for my engine break in last year.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Roller cams and lifters? Safer? Here is my collected collection of roller cam fails - and block distruction.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> Roller cams and lifters? Safer? Here is my collected collection of roller cam fails - and block distruction.
> 
> View attachment 159926
> 
> ...


Come on now, I'm going to have nightmares plus I don't have galley supports...where's my blankie and my bourbon.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> Come on now, I'm going to have nightmares plus I don't have galley supports...where's my blankie and my bourbon.


Ya, exactly. I just didn't want some thinking there is no down side to a roller set-up. They, like flat tappet cams, fail, but when a flat tappet cam/lifter fails it fails over time and it won't take out an engine if the lifter goes sideways, locks up, or roller breaks off.

ANYTHING mechanical can fail and some fails will take out an engine. Just prefer to minimize my chances. Now have that drink and make it a double.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

geeteeohguy said:


> Several of the failed lifters and cams I have seen recently all came from Comp Cams.
> That said, I have built two engines with Comp Cams and lifters, but the last one was 12 years ago.
> As long as I measured the cam lobes for taper and checked the lifters for crown and leakdown, I would be ok with whatever.
> I don't like roller cams/lifters, at least not aftermarket ones, because I've seen too many nice blocks destroyed by those rock hard, pesky little needle bearings that seem to fall out of the valvetrain quite often.
> ...





Jared said:


> I can't believe anyone would recommend you do this. Break in oils are missing some of the additives that your engine needs and are for short term use only. They are designed to prevent wear at high pressure areas (cam lobes etc) while allowing those areas to polish. At the same time they do promote some wear to aid in setting the rings etc. My guess is Butler probably recommended you do your cam break in, change the oil and replace with fresh break in oil, drive for a few hundred miles, then change it again for a high zinc level engine oil (conventional or synthetic is fine if you use the correct weight). That's exactly what Comp recommended for my engine break in last year.


 Thank you. I probably misunderstood or "misremembered" what I was told. I will make the change to regular Driven Street use formulation.


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## michaelfind (Dec 14, 2018)

So now I'm overwhelmed with my Driven choices.
I don't see a street use formula on summits page, but I suppose something like the HR2 Racing Oil is a good choice?


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

Is this what you guy use? Price wise its only a couple dollars more and has the additives for winter storage (anti corrosion)









Hot Rod Oils - Driven Racing Oil


Driven's hot rod oils contain a unique formula that will ensure your classic engine is well protected and performs at its best. Shop hot rod oil here.



drivenracingoil.com


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

67ventwindow said:


> Is this what you guy use? Price wise its only a couple dollars more and has the additives for winter storage (anti corrosion)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's what I started using yes.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Great photo post of lifter fails, Jim. My new avatar was inspired by yours. I tried to get my expression right, but I think it's a fail. Have another one that's bigger, maybe I'll try that. 
They say imitation is the greatest form of flattery. LOL...


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

michaelfind said:


> So now I'm overwhelmed with my Driven choices.
> I don't see a street use formula on summits page, but I suppose something like the HR2 Racing Oil is a good choice?


I'm running HR1 in mine.









Driven HR1 15W-50 Conventional Hot Rod Oil


Driven HR1 15W-50 Conventional Hot Rod Oil



drivenracingoil.com


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

I'll add. If I had a full roller cam and rocker set up, I'd run Mobil1. That's what I run in all my new cars.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Jared said:


> I'm running HR1 in mine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So we have about the same set up but I don’t know the bearing clearances from Butler vs yours and the Driven tech recommended 10w40, is there an advantage with the 15w50 or is it all in the clearances? A lot of people here don't recommend 20w50 but it's not much different than the 15w50 except maybe thicker on start up when cold.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> So we have about the same set up but I don’t know the bearing clearances from Butler vs yours and the Driven tech recommended 10w40, is there an advantage with the 15w50 or is it all in the clearances? A lot of people here don't recommend 20w50 but it's not much different than the 15w50 except maybe thicker on start up when cold.


Well, when your roller lifter fails and goes sideways and takes out your engine, there will have been no difference if you ran 10W-40, 15W-50, 20W-50, or 80W gear oil.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> Well, when your roller lifter fails and goes sideways and takes out your engine, there will have been no difference if you ran 10W-40, 15W-50, 20W-50, or 80W gear oil.


You're just full of holiday cheer this week 😕


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> You're just full of holiday cheer this week 😕


Yepper, just wait until New Years and I have a few drinks in me.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> Yepper, just wait until New Years and I have a few drinks in me.


Can't wait to see what horrors await 😉


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Baaad65 said:


> So we have about the same set up but I don’t know the bearing clearances from Butler vs yours and the Driven tech recommended 10w40, is there an advantage with the 15w50 or is it all in the clearances? A lot of people here don't recommend 20w50 but it's not much different than the 15w50 except maybe thicker on start up when cold.


The oil weight shouldn't matter too much as long as you have decent oil pressure. I could probably go with 10W 30 and be fine. I don't really use mine once it gets cold out so the thicker oil isn't a concern to me.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Jared said:


> The oil weight shouldn't matter too much as long as you have decent oil pressure. I could probably go with 10W 30 and be fine. I don't really use mine once it gets cold out so the thicker oil isn't a concern to me.


I just thought the thicker oil took longer to get into places and if your clearances are tighter you want the thinner stuff. I don’t drive it in the cold either but I remember people here said to stay away from the 20w50, I was thinking if my valve train is still too noisy after I adjust it that maybe I would try the 15w50 but with the long hoses and remote filters idk if that's a bad idea?


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## Greek64GTO (Dec 13, 2015)

Baaad65, you aren't making a change! The 15w-50 and the 20w-50 are almost virtually the same. Ok, if it is working for you.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Greek64GTO said:


> Baaad65, you aren't making a change! The 15w-50 and the 20w-50 are almost virtually the same. Ok, if it is working for you.


I'm running 10w40.


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