# Upgraded suspension, steering and brakes question



## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

Hey all, I am back looking for advice again (yes, i do this a lot). Since I am essentially planning on doing a frame off resotration, I thought it might be a good time to ask about suspension set ups.

I have heard a lot of hoopla on upgraded front and rear suspension. Terms like tubular upper and lower conrtrol arms, adjustable upper lower control arms, coil over shocks, drop spindles, anti-sway bars, rack-and-pinion steering, and etc seem to pop up everywhere. I understand that the manufacturer likely used less than ideal parts for mass production. However, I am currious as to how much an upgraded suspension, steering and/or brakes will really benifit me if I am not into racing but boulevard cruising. 

I have a vague idea how an upgrade anti-sway bar will improve everyday driving as well as performance driving. But how will tubular or adjustable upper/lower control arms (front and/or rear) improve my handling compared to the original stamped parts? Is rack-and-pinion steering a worthwhile investment?

Now do not get me wrong, I do not mind spending the extra money for upgraded items if I can see the benefit of such parts. I just do not want to get stuck on having the "best" parts just for bragging rights. 

Can someone give me a little advice on upgraded suspension and steering? Thanks all.


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Howdy...

It's hard to separate fact from hoopla, that's for sure. I was tempted to go the tall spindle/negative camber route myself until I found a web site that explained all the reasons it was a bad idea --- mostly having to do with introducing bump steer problems due to the geometry of the steering linking not being compatible with things after the change. It IS possible to do, but to do it right you have to completely redo the steering linkage and geometry also, and that runs into bucks.

Tubular front arms do two thinigs for you, maybe three depending on which ones you use:
lighter
more rigid
more easily adjustable (some of them)

Fully adjustable rear UPPERS make it easy to correctly adjust your driveline angle (sometimes called pinion angle) to get rid of driveshaft vibration. This can be very important if you've changed anything on the transmission, how it mounts, motor mounts, rear axle, etc that might have slightly changed the location of these parts from factory.

Adjustable LOWERS make it possible to do a 4-wheel alignment on your car - make sure that the rear axle is perfectly parallel with the front axle. They also let you control the fore/aft placement of the axle if you need to dial that in (to fit fat tires, perhaps).

The type of joints on the rear control arms (upper and lower) can make the rear suspension work a lot better. Because of the triangulated relationship between upper and lower (this is how side to side location of the axle is controlled) as the axle rotates relative to the body (like in a hard corner) the ends of the control arms have to "twist" relative to their mounts. This is the reason the factory bushings have rubber centers - to allow this twisting motion. If they were rigid mounted, something would have to break. Even with rubber though, in corners the rear axle tends to bind in this kind of motion. Replacing the rubber bushings with hard polyurethane makes the binding much WORSE - not better. The hot ticket is to use some sort of fully articulated spherical joint instead of the rubber bushings. These let the control arms freely twist in their mounts without any binding, yet the forward/backward movement of the arm ends is more rigidly controlled than it is with either rubber or polyurethane - good stuff because it allows your suspension to 'work' easier without binding. In actuality, you only need the spherical joints on one end of each control arm even though most of the lowers that have them, have them on both ends. 

Sway bars: resist body roll and allow you to control that motion during cornering. Some types of rear sway bars (the ones that mount to the frame, not the control arms) allow you to dial in some preload on one side or the other to help make the car go straight during a hard launch.

On my 69, I've got on the front:
Factory control arms with hard polyurethane bushings
Big aftermarket sway bar
single adjustble shocks

On the rear:
Fully adjustable upper and lower control arms with spherical joints
Control arm mount braces/stiffeners
double adjustable shocks
Frame mounted adjustable sway bar

I got most of the stuff from Spohn Engineering. I found their stuff to be high quality and reasonably priced.

Hope this helps...

Bear


----------



## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

Wow, that is indeed much to digest. I do understand if I were making a race car or drag car, that upgraded suspension, brakes, steering, bushings, etc would be needed. I am still deciding whether I want to drop the $5,000 (or more) for a full front and rear suspension kits (like the one OPG and others sell) or just go with essentially a factory true suspension set up. I am just not sure that the cost-benefit is necessarily worth it all.


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

mrvandermey said:


> Wow, that is indeed much to digest. I do understand if I were making a race car or drag car, that upgraded suspension, brakes, steering, bushings, etc would be needed. I am still deciding whether I want to drop the $5,000 (or more) for a full front and rear suspension kits (like the one OPG and others sell) or just go with essentially a factory true suspension set up. I am just not sure that the cost-benefit is necessarily worth it all.


The "worth it" question is certainly up to you - as it should be - and don't let anyone convince you otherwise. If it were me, working on a limited budget, I wouldn't use anyone's "kit" - and I'd approach it in this order:
1) new ball joints, tie rod ends, steering center link, idler arm on the front. (Also new bushings if you're not going to do 3) below)
2) Quality shocks front and rear - your choice on adjustability or not
3) polyurethane bushings on the front, including polyurethane sway bar links
4) adjustable upper rear control arms with spherical bushings
5) rear control arm mount braces/stiffeners
6) adjustable lower rear control arms with spherical bushings
7) stronger front sway bar
8) chassis mount rear sway bar
9) tubular front control arms
10) "Negative camber" alteration including steering correction

I picked that order for me because my priorities are safety/reliability followed by moderate handling improvement followed by "hook" for drag racing followed by 'corner carving'. YMMV, of course 

Bear


----------



## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

I like that order. For my priorities are safety/reliability, moderate handling improvement followed by cornering, and of course stance. I honestly wont be doing any real drag racing, although I may occassionally join in a bout of competitioon from time to time with a bowtie bubba or a blue oval boy.


----------



## kjk990 (Sep 1, 2010)

I fall into this category also. I have a 67 GTO. I haven't touched the suspension, brakes, or steering yet. I also need rims and tires. I like the order above but I don't want to have to do anything twice. where would front disk brakes come into this list? I have all wheel drum, non power brakes.

Does anyone know of a good inexpensive package. It doesn't have to be name brand (it's not a race car). I just want cheap, but quality.

Thanks


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

kjk990 said:


> Does anyone know of a good inexpensive package. It doesn't have to be name brand (it's not a race car). I just want cheap, but quality.


Smile... in my personal experience on the beast, the words "good", "inexpensive", and "package" are mutually exclusive. 

I went with a front and rear "Package"/"Kit" from a well known supplier for my 69, and it turned out that I still had to buy quite a few more pieces to finish up the installation. Want to use your factory style brake lines with our calipers? Well, you're going to need adapter fittings for that -- not included. Want to actually USE your parking brakes? Well, you're going to have to use special actuator cables -- not included. Want to use your factory steel (or any steel) wheels with our front aluminum hubs? Well, you're going to need "protectors" to keep the steel from chewing up the aluminum -- not included. Oh, and forget using your factory non-adjustable proportioning valve. You're going to need one of our adjustable valves to get the brake balance correct -- (of course) not included. All the "kit" included were the calipers, rotors, hats, hubs, pads, and caliper mounting brackets. Oh, and you had to assemble the rotors and hats yourself, and those bolts have to be safety wired -- yeah, not included.

All that was relatively early in my build so it was still a surprise. As I went along I learned to just expect that aftermarket parts are usually going to require additional work/parts/effort to get them installed and functional regardless of what the vendor claims, and since I expect that now it doesn't bother me as much.

There's a reason they call this endeavor "building" a car instead of just "assembling" a car. :lol:

But, you asked for recommendations. My opinion is this: brakes are sort of important , so if you're going to splurge on any part of your build it should be here. Your mind set should be, "what's the best quality I can afford?" instead of "what's the least expensive route I can take?". It'd be a really sad thing to build a beautiful car, then lose it when you wrap it around a pole because you couldn't stop it - or worse, leave your family behind to deal with the aftermath.

Bear


----------



## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> Smile... in my personal experience on the beast, the words "good", "inexpensive", and "package" are mutually exclusive.
> 
> I went with a front and rear "Package"/"Kit" from a well known supplier for my 69, and it turned out that I still had to buy quite a few more pieces to finish up the installation. Want to use your factory style brake lines with our calipers? Well, you're going to need adapter fittings for that -- not included. Want to actually USE your parking brakes? Well, you're going to have to use special actuator cables -- not included. Want to use your factory steel (or any steel) wheels with our front aluminum hubs? Well, you're going to need "protectors" to keep the steel from chewing up the aluminum -- not included. Oh, and forget using your factory non-adjustable proportioning valve. You're going to need one of our adjustable valves to get the brake balance correct -- (of course) not included. All the "kit" included were the calipers, rotors, hats, hubs, pads, and caliper mounting brackets. Oh, and you had to assemble the rotors and hats yourself, and those bolts have to be safety wired -- yeah, not included.
> 
> ...


I hear what you are saying and even expect that every after market kit (whether it be brakes, suspension, steering or whatever) will require extra parts and/or labor. The part that scares me is that I am not the most mechanically inclined guy out there. I can the basics down pretty good but it is the fine tuning or the details that often get me. 

On my brakes, I originally wanted 4-wheel disc, but I think I am going to stick with drum brakes in rear (although upgraded shoes) and higher end disc brakes for front.

On suspension, I think I am going for slightly upgraded rear (i.e. Hotchkis upper/lowers, sway bar, springs and bushings) with likely a 10-bolt posi traction rearend and then go one step further on upgraded front suspension (tubular upper/lowers, 2" drop spindles, performance springs, sway bar, bushings etc).

On Steering, I think essentially I will go stock for now, with upgraded bushings.

I am not looking to make a race car or even a high end show car. I want a really nice driver to cruise the boulevard. I want better brakes (for these old muscle cars were not known for stopping) and I want some improvement in performance and handling, but in the end, I just want to drive my car.


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Sounds like a plan to me. Very wise of you to consider how you're going to use the car and plan accordingly. One thing I did on mine was I sent the factory power steering unit off to the folks at powersteering.com and had it rebuilt into a quick ratio unit. It looks original (it IS original) but the handling response is very much improved.

Bear


----------



## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> Sounds like a plan to me. Very wise of you to consider how you're going to use the car and plan accordingly. One thing I did on mine was I sent the factory power steering unit off to the folks at powersteering.com and had it rebuilt into a quick ratio unit. It looks original (it IS original) but the handling response is very much improved.
> 
> Bear


Wow, that sounds like a really cool idea. I like it!


----------



## bayou4us (Nov 27, 2011)

*Front disc brakes*

Can anyone tell me what year or years and which model GM front disc brake set up will work on my 67 Lemans. I have drums and what to switch over to disc.:seeya


----------



## kjk990 (Sep 1, 2010)

I agree with the "get good parts" theory. But you know how grade A parts say cost $1000. Grade B May cost $600, C = $500, D=$400. I want the Grade B level.

The second part was when in the list above would you add disk brakes? Will all of the parts listed on Bears list work with disk and drum brakes the same? I don't want to have to buy things twice.

I was looking at disk spindles. Some have a two inch drop. If I buy drop spindles do I buy stock height springs or lowering springs?

Thanks


----------



## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

kjk990 said:


> I agree with the "get good parts" theory. But you know how grade A parts say cost $1000. Grade B May cost $600, C = $500, D=$400. I want the Grade B level.
> 
> The second part was when in the list above would you add disk brakes? Will all of the parts listed on Bears list work with disk and drum brakes the same? I don't want to have to buy things twice.
> 
> ...


Good question on the drop spindles, for I know I want disc brakes and I want to lower the car, but I am a little confused with 2" drop spindles but 1" or 2" lowering front springs, while rear springs are only 1" lowering. Now I grant mathmeatics is not my best suit, but it seems to me the numbers are off.

I understand the conceptual idea behind each of these parts but I am not getting how they work together when to me at least, the numbers do not match. Can some one explain this to me like I am 6, you know, break it down Barney style?


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

kjk990 said:


> The second part was when in the list above would you add disk brakes? Will all of the parts listed on Bears list work with disk and drum brakes the same? I don't want to have to buy things twice.


That can be an advantage with some of the aftermarket suppliers. Wilwood, for example, makes front disc brake "kits" that will work with non-disc brake spindles. They supply the correct mounting brackets for the calipers so that they'll locate the calipers in the correct spot when using spindles that were originally for drum brakes. So, if you're wanting to start out with drums and then convert to disc later, that could be a good option.

Bear


----------



## crustysack (Oct 5, 2008)

a drop spindle is a part that is the same as stock EXCEPT the spindle location is different, a 2" drop spindle has the spindle 2" higher than the stock spindle raising the wheel up in relation to the whole car so the car frame+body are now closer to the ground- this allows the suspension to retain all of its travel allowing for a ride as smooth as stock. Lowering springs are basically just shorter springs that are progressive dampening -which translates into a much stiffer ride sometimes harsh even since the spring no longer has the same amount of travel to support the same weight.
You can get 1 or 2 or 3 inch rear lowering spring (from stock height) The different combination are a personal taste thing and at what angle/stance you like for your car.
I went with 2" drop spindles and a 1" rear lowering spring for my car, I started out with a 3" rear drop but that was WAY to much.I did go the full switch over route Global West tubular control arms, QA1 coil overs,swaybar,new pitman arm,linkage,quick ratio steering box, front disc brakes, rear tubular control arms , upper adjustables, QA1 shocks, rear swaybar. The car rides really nice and handles awesome- 100 percent better than it ever could have with oem parts- I use this car as a daily driver(weather permitting-stay away snow!!!!!!!!!) so I wanted something that was easy and enjoyable to drive


----------



## kjk990 (Sep 1, 2010)

any suggestions for front and rear shocks? Also looking for suggestions for bushings.


----------

