# Arizona PONTIAC engine builder advice



## 13mpg (Jan 8, 2018)

Hello all I'm looking to spend my daughters inheritance. My latest acquired 65 is original and complete from front to back. The odometer crapped out at (1)26500 thousand miles. No smoke few drips but I'm concerned about her innards giving out someday and throwing a rod ruining a perfect date coded numbers matching block, and overall value of my LAST car...haha.

In reviewing threads I know someone that knows Pontiac muscle is the way to go it ain't a chevy 350 block and can't be treated as one.

My question is can anyone recommend a builder that can build my motor with higher end tougher performance gizzards here in Arizona? I've had fords and chevies yawn but these GTO's are my second youth and passion.

I know it will not be cheap I want to do it right. 

Thank you


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Paul Carter in Tuscon.
Doubt you'll find a shop with more attention to detail in the SW with a strong Pontiac reputation. 
Planning a trip to Tuscon later this Fall with some goodies.
_______________
Paul Carter
Carter Cryogenics
Cryogenics, cryogenic treatment, cryogenic processing, Carter Cryogenics.
520-409-7236
Koerner Racing Engines
520-294-5758


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

On many Pontiac forums, Paul receives high praise from those who have used him for their engines. He has customers not just from SW but all over the USA.

Somewhere on the PY forum, Paul did a thread on how he builds a Pontiac engine, amazing attention to detail. I certainly would use him.


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## tiretread (Sep 28, 2015)

With my relatively few dealings with Paul; he has always provided immediate feedback and the guy is knowledgeable. I plan on sending some heads his way later this year.


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## 13mpg (Jan 8, 2018)

Thanks guys I'll reach out to him. I've never had as much fun driving any of my cars ever as I am with this 65 four speed. After he's done I may have to change my ID to 10MPG lol.


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## 13mpg (Jan 8, 2018)

Well,it looks like I forget to hit post response when I wrote that last response. I just hung up with Paul, sounds like a great guy. He can build me what I need no problems so thanks for the advice everyone. Unfortunately I cannot drive it there and leave it with him he has no storage for a car SANs engine and no way to pull it out. Last week I had another 7 hour guts on the table and in a bucket operation 30 staples north and south and east and west so nothing over 5 pounds for me the next 60 days or so. Paul knows a guy in Gilbert AZ that might be able to pull it and store the car a while and I could trailer it down and back possibly.

He has three ahead of me so let's see where this goes. I'll keep you posted and if anyone likes to wrench let me know I got a few bucks lol.


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## 13mpg (Jan 8, 2018)

Engine coming out tomorrow and going into a cradle built for this motor sitting on my trailer. Friday I'm hauling to Tucson to drop it off.

Any suggestions on what I should have him build me? Something between mild to wild lol. Few more cubic inches longer stroke something with get up and go but dependable for another 53 years. 

I've read here as long as we are thi$ far might a$ well do thi$ and that!

Any of your collective wisdom is appreciated and I will post photos of the before during and after process.

Thanks for your input.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Not sure if you plan to go stock or are open to other routes. So I am throwing a lot of things that would be upgrades and not necessarily a stock rebuild.

If your block will clean up at .030", I would go with custom Ross pistons with valve reliefs for the later 400CI engine UNLESS you plan on using the original 389CI heads OR I would have the 389 bored/sleeved .060" over to handle the more available 400CI pistons and later heads - pre 1967 heads/valves us a different valve angle than 1967 and up. 

If I had the budget, I would suggest cubic inches, ie a stroker kit which is the best bang for your buck as you will want forged pistons & rods anyway and you get a new stroked crank. Popular is the 4.25" stoke 461 build for a 400CI block OR you can even go bigger with a 4.5" stroke and get near 480 cubes. The bigger cubes will mean more torque at lower RPM's and lower RPM's means less wear. Horsepower will come with it, but is up to cam & head choice. This stroker kit also applies to the 389CI.

Heads, I like iron heads, but if budget can justify it and originality is not your goal, the aluminum heads are the way to go for a number of reasons. They will most likely outlast the cast iron heads. Aluminum heads can be repaired if damaged. Valve inserts for unleaded gas or whatever the future might have. They will run cooler. More CFM's right out of the box than spending $dollars on iron heads to have ported & flowed WHICH the bigger cube engine will appreciate.

Shoot for 9:1 compression with iron heads and about 10:1 with aluminum heads unless you live at higher altitudes. 

Camshaft choice if budget allows would be a roller cam & lifters. Match the cam with the cubes & head CFM's along with the RPM range you want the engine to perform best. You don't have to go crazy lift as you want a streetable engine with good vacuum and manners. Roller cams/lifters would most likely last a lifetime. Hydraulic tappet cams are fine if a roller cam/lifters are out of the budget. Again, don't need to go crazy with the lift/duration for a street engine. Either way, I would fill out an engine spec card with one of the many cam suppliers or engine builders and let them recommend a cam based on what you want the engine to do. No one cam will do it all, so you want to gauge the cam based on the range at which the engine will see the most time. You don't want a cam that does not offer lower end power if you plan more of a cruising car versus one more for street/race and take advantage up the upper middle & upper RPM ranges where you would want the engine to really perform.

If a roller cam, a lifter brace from Butler is a MUST.

I like the Butler pro-oil pumps, 60 PSI is fine. I like the Nightmare brand oil pump drive shaft, but any hardened steel replacement oil pump shaft is a MUST. DO NOT re-use the original.

Intake would be the tried and true Factory Q-jet with a good rebuilt Q-jet carb matched to the cubes & cam, but if you keep the factory square bore intake, a larger AFB or Holley would be the way to go. I'd go with an aftermarket intake to provide more CFM's/breathing for larger cubes.

Exhaust would be the 2.5" Ram Air cast iron reproductions for ease of installation, flow, & longevity.

Electronic distributor or electronic conversion for a points type distributor - just for ease of not having to install/set points & condensor which is becoming a lost art.

Again, you have options depending on budget and how original or not you want to build the car/engine. Narrow it down a bit on what you are looking to do and maybe we can throw a few more options your way and then you will need to discuss this with your engine builder so you and he are on the same page. :thumbsup:


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## cij911 (Oct 25, 2017)

^^ That is what I want .....461 + iron heads + roller cam + tripower


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## 13mpg (Jan 8, 2018)

Wow great advice so far thanks. Maybe I forgot to mention the original intake manifold was in the trunk and one of those Edlebrock Pontiac Performers is in use today with the original AFB freshly rebuilt and tuned. Also has an more modern high performance dizzy on it with coil in the cap. No original dizzy was in trunk dang it.

I don't think 470 CI is what I'm looking for something more mild than wild in the 421 area maybe?

Aluminum heads might be a little more $$ than rebuilding my iron heads but if I keep the 77's on the shelf with the OEM iron intake I still have the value with original parts right??


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

13mpg said:


> Engine coming out tomorrow and going into a cradle built for this motor sitting on my trailer. Friday I'm hauling to Tucson to drop it off.
> 
> Any suggestions on what I should have him build me? Something between mild to wild lol. Few more cubic inches longer stroke something with get up and go but dependable for another 53 years.
> 
> ...


Actually Paul has built so any engines, he can give you the best advice. Basically once you tell him what your use for the car is, he can build you what you need to fulfill your performance needs.

Here is a thread that Paul did on another forum where he built a nice street engine for a customer with a '67 GTO (enjoy):

461 KRE D-port dyno time. - PY Online Forums


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## 13mpg (Jan 8, 2018)

We got the engine out without any difficulty and will head to Paul's in Tucson mid morning tomorrow. Photos tomorrow afternoon. Engine never been apart or out of car from what we can tell. Still has the 77 heads I noticed and Paul asked about those when I spoke to him initially.

Definitely going with roller cams and forged rods and pistons. Maybe 400 cubies will be enuf for this old man. After thinking about what Pontiac Jim says I'd like the car to be able to maintain highway speed without overheating. I wish it had a fifth speed or an OD to keep the rpm's down at higher speeds but it is awesome as it is now in town in all four gears now.

Shopping list so far new starter, new Harmonic balancer (timing is way off rubber must have moved) new motor mounts, possibly a fan shroud if there is a decent one out there and not flimsy plastic, and a beefier fan clutch for my 7 blade fan.

I have an HEI ignition and a fresh AFB. Anyone think of anything else?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

13mpg said:


> Wow great advice so far thanks. Maybe I forgot to mention the original intake manifold was in the trunk and one of those Edlebrock Pontiac Performers is in use today with the original AFB freshly rebuilt and tuned. Also has an more modern high performance dizzy on it with coil in the cap. No original dizzy was in trunk dang it.
> 
> I don't think 470 CI is what I'm looking for something more mild than wild in the 421 area maybe?
> 
> Aluminum heads might be a little more $$ than rebuilding my iron heads but if I keep the 77's on the shelf with the OEM iron intake I still have the value with original parts right??


OK, I like the 421CI stroker kit from Butler. I would be looking to go with a .030" over on the 389 if it will clean up at this size. Next size is .040", and finally .060". Now it may go bigger if you absolutely had to, but you would want to have the cylinders sonic tested for wall thickness to insure you could go bigger, which would be .090" (400CI bore plus .030" over pistons). Always go the least amount so you have more cylinder wall left to size up should you want to rebuild in the future. Sleeves are always an option in saving a block, but will cost $more and usually not worth doing a complete block unless its to save an original numbers block that has to be saved for value purposes.

You will want to shoot for a pump friendly 9:1 compression ratio for iron heads BUT you cannot really order the stroker kit until you know what heads you are going to use and what CC's the combustion chamber is (along with bore size). The pistons will then be matched by either increasing the valve relief CC's in the top of the piston or dishing them the needed CC's to work with your heads.

You also want to make sure that you have a nice tight "squish" area which is where the top of the pistons meet the head surface. With the forged pistons, taking into expansion, you want to shoot for about .045" (many will go .040", but I think a little safety margin is just that) and this can be gotten by knowing the piston pin height to the top of the piston and the deck height. The factory cast piston will be "down in the bore" as measured from the engine deck about .015" - .020". Some will recommend milling the top of the block to "zero deck" the block and put your piston tops even with the block deck. I personally don't care for this practice, but if a clean-up pass is needed, then that is a different story as it is minimal and squares up and evens the deck surfaces. The purpose of "zero decking" the block allows for a typical .040" Fel-Pro head gasket to bring your squish area to the tighter .040" than many builders like. I prefer to use a thinner head gasket which is what I have done on my 455 build. My pistons are .020" down in the bore. I am using the Cometic head gaskets at .027" which when added to my pistons setting down in the bore .020" gives me a squish area of .047" which is a good number with the forged pistons. So you can obtain a good squish dimension by selecting a head gasket thickness that will work for your combination. The benefits of the tighter squish area are a faster burn and greater turbulence at the time of combustion which lessen the chance of detonation.

The "77" heads use a 1.92" intake and 1.60" exhaust valves whereas the later 1967 and up performance heads use the 2.11" intake and 1.77" exhaust valves for better flow & performance. So the "77" heads have small valves which will limit overall performance with a stroker 421CI engine. The engine will probably be very responsive at low to mid RPM's and be limited on upper RPM's because the heads will not flow. If you look at the SD421 engine, it had 2.02" intake and 1.76" exhaust valves so it could pull. I believe you could add the 2.02/1.76" valves, but you don't have enough distance between valves to use the 2.11/1.77" later valves.

The later head/valves would be better, but this is where you need to check the valve to bore clearances with the larger valves in a 389 bore. Might need to notch the 389 bores a little at the top depending on valve lift through your cam selection(if you go .060" over on the 389, then you are at the same bore as the 400CI which used the 2.11/1.77" valves - so you should not need much with regards to a notch in the top of the cylinder bore). So even if you go later iron heads or aftermarket aluminum heads, this will need to be checked by your machinist or email one of the Pontiac builders whom you might purchase the aluminum heads through. I am using the 1972 7K3 heads and added the Ferrea RA IV stainless steel valves which are longer than the typical hi-performance Pontiac valve. This allows for a taller spring height & added clearances needed for higher lift cams 

So at this point, if you select the 421CI stroker kit (once you know what your 389 bore will clean up to), you want to consider how you want to go with the heads and what CC's the chambers will be. Once you have nailed that down, then you can order your stroker kit with the specs for your block/heads. :thumbsup:


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

PontiacJim said:


> So at this point, if you select the 421CI stroker kit (once you know what your 389 bore will clean up to), you want to consider how you want to go with the heads and what CC's the chambers will be. Once you have nailed that down, then you can order your stroker kit with the specs for your block/heads. :thumbsup:


The few times I have used an engine builder as good as Paul, I talked with them before ordering parts as they had professional contacts and most the time could get a better price on parts than I could. IMHO I would talk with Paul before ordering a lot of expensive kits. IMHO


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## 13mpg (Jan 8, 2018)

More great info guys thanks, I'm gonna let Paul do the ordering of parts for this build and show him your thoughts when I get down there hopefully later this morning. It's too damn cold right now to go outside it's lik 57 degrees ugh. Shooting for 82 later today lol.

This may not be a long distance driver after all, I'm still not quite sure about the "Redline" on the tach maybe that was for 53 year old metallurgy and components and newer innards can handle some higher RPM's. I did find a local airport that will sell me some 100 octane real gas at about $4.29 a gallon I'm told. That might be fun!


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...If a roller cam, a lifter brace from Butler is a MUST..."


Lifter bore brace is good insurance, but most Pontiac engine builders say that it is NOT a MUST, with mild HR cams. But, it is needed with aggressive lobes.

Here's what Paul Carter said about it. 

Lifter bore brace question. - PONTIAC ZONE TECH FORUMS

More.

http://psp.aquacomp.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3501


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## 13mpg (Jan 8, 2018)

What a long day today Tucson was only supposed to be about an hour and ten minutes away....HA we left at 11 and I just got home at 5:30!

Met Paul and got the shop tour and had more numbers thrown at me than I ever did in high school math. Angle this degree that flows this much blah blah TMI at one time. Told him what I wanted it to do and he said sign here. Such a nice soft spoken man with totally awesome machine tools at the shop.

Saw a pretty cool clean room with three or four engines in there being assembled sort of like an operating room.

Here are a few photos from today as promised. Not sure this is the correct place to have this ongoing thread so moderators please move it if necessary.


Loaded up headed out, at the shop and a couple photos of Pontiac blocks and parts everywhere and look close and you willl see Paul he unloaded this by himself.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

bigD said:


> "...If a roller cam, a lifter brace from Butler is a MUST..."
> 
> 
> Lifter bore brace is good insurance, but most Pontiac engine builders say that it is NOT a MUST, with mild HR cams. But, it is needed with aggressive lobes.
> ...


Ah, love reading info from rocket scientists with their slide rulers. Bottom line from aquacomp.net is, "I'd rather spend a few hundred now than spend several hundred later. And I've already several thousand."

The Pontiac RA V block was cast with the extra bracing and it only used the RA IV cam. Hmmmm. What could the Pontiac engineers have been thinking in doing such a thing for a flat tappet cam of all things?

I would not run a roller cam without a lifter brace, even if the other Pontiac website mathematicians calculated the angular deflection and applied side pressures of Pie-R-Squared divided by 8 to the 23rd power.

"David Popp of Hy-Lift Johnson noted how, 'greater pushrod angles can create increased side loading of the lifter (roller) body.' " I wonder if those Pontiac armchair number crunchers took this into consideration when using a 1.65 ratio rocker arm which creates a greater pushrod angle and applies additional side loading on the roller rockers? 

Well, I suppose if a lifter bore blows out on anyone using a mild roller cam/lifter set-up that the internet scientists would ante up the money to repair those who did not use the lifter bore brace based on their theoretical applications of the cam lift and rotational moment of the critical mechanical intersection stated there of.

I am not a rocket scientist nor do I play one on TV. Just sayin' :thumbsup:


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Well, you seem to know quite a bit about Pontiac engines, and also seem to be quite opinionated, as are many of us on these Pontiac forums. 

Paul Carter is a highly respected Pontiac engine builder. I assume he has built hundreds of Pontiac engines with roller cams. If he says a mild roller cam don't require a lifter bore brace, then I'd say that's a pretty decent opinion. But, if you choose to think he doesn't know what he's talkin about, that's your right.

I'll just say again that I think it's good insurance. It's not that expensive. So, why even take a chance. But that's just me. I've only run one roller. Didn't have a brace & at the time had never even heard of such a thing. I'm definitely NOT an expert engine builder. I'm just one of the "keyboard racers" that the forum smart guys love to badmouth.

If I had the money, I'd just go with an aftermarket block, and not worry about the lifter bores. But then, if I had that much money, I'd probably be racing instead of passing my time on Pontiac forums. But, unfortunately, I'll have to be satisfied with online Pontiac chat, for now. My ideas & opinions may not be correct, but I like to join in the conversation at times, just like lots of other non-experts on these forums. If only experts were allowed to post opinions, most forums would not exist.


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## cij911 (Oct 25, 2017)

I hope you post more pictures of Paul's workshop.....I'm curious on the build and $$ (pm me if you want). Thanks & Good luck

Chris


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

bigD: "Well, you seem to know quite a bit about Pontiac engines, and also seem to be quite opinionated, as are many of us on these Pontiac forums."

Yes, I am opinionated as is most people who provide advice on any of the assorted forums - even engine builders and parts manufacturers are opinionated. 

I don't take any offense in it either. I err on the side of "better safe than sorry" and doing some research (as best I can) to support my opinions OR what I actually do in building my present car. Am I right? Who truly knows because it boils down to if it works for me, it may not work for you.

With the money invested in engine rebuilds and the fact that the Pontiac engines were really not designed with roller cams in mind, I prefer to prevent a major failure before it happens - if it ever happens, why chance it? These are 40 & 50 year old engine blocks and sometimes even new the castings may not be 100%. So yes, my opinion, a lifter bore brace is a must with a roller cam - but then again I would not use a roller cam because that is my choice and I like "old school" on some things. For others it may be just the ticket. :thumbsup:


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## 13mpg (Jan 8, 2018)

Hey I encourage everyone's input y'all know way more than me and I enjoy the opinions and reading. I will post more photos as it goes through the process but that wont be for a week or two until he works my engine into the lineup. He did have some interesting things to say about a build like I want. First ditch the aluminum Edlebrock Pontiac Performer intake and we are gonna go back to either the original cast one that was in the trunk or there is a guy in town with a 65 date code tripower for $400 bucks, no carbs. Don't know what the complete set up would cost that way any thoughts? He also said nothing wrong with some good flat tappet cams correct for a mild+ build. Forged pistons and rods work over my 77 cast heads and go for 9:1 compression. He also advised against a stroke crank, mine should be fine for what he will build. American steel will support much more HP than I will ever need. When done his way and there were other suggestions my motor will be over 400hp which is fine for this old man. My buddy Mike in Gilbert got the engine out in no time an outstanding and efficient mechanic. I highly recommend him to anyone in the Phoenix area. I deferred the detailed specifics to he and Paul and know I'm in competant hands. Of course I now have a shopping list to get after and Mike discovered I have a cracked rear sway bar so there goes my next weeks allowance lol.


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

13mpg said:


> Hey I encourage everyone's input y'all know way more than me and I enjoy the opinions and reading. I will post more photos as it goes through the process but that wont be for a week or two until he works my engine into the lineup. He did have some interesting things to say about a build like I want. First ditch the aluminum Edlebrock Pontiac Performer intake and we are gonna go back to either the original cast one that was in the trunk or there is a guy in town with a 65 date code tripower for $400 bucks, no carbs. Don't know what the complete set up would cost that way any thoughts? He also said nothing wrong with some good flat tappet cams correct for a mild+ build. Forged pistons and rods work over my 77 cast heads and go for 9:1 compression. He also advised against a stroke crank, mine should be fine for what he will build. American steel will support much more HP than I will ever need. When done his way and there were other suggestions my motor will be over 400hp which is fine for this old man. My buddy Mike in Gilbert got the engine out in no time an outstanding and efficient mechanic. I highly recommend him to anyone in the Phoenix area. I deferred the detailed specifics to he and Paul and know I'm in competant hands. *Of course I now have a shopping list to get after and Mike discovered I have a cracked rear sway bar so there goes my next weeks allowance lol.*


Hey 13mpg, Ain't old cars fun?:surprise:


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## 13mpg (Jan 8, 2018)

'Yo 68GTO fun? Fun to drive that's for sure. I've been wrenching on my own cars since 1970 lol. I had major abdominal surgery about 3 weeks ago so I need to hire stuff out now. Mike is awesome to watch too. 

What's more fun is finding a brand NEW sway bar on offer up
for $50 bucks 15 minutes from my house AND meeting another Pontiac enthusiast that ALSO sold me a solid PVC not wimpy plastic fan shroud too!

Not only those but he took my shopping list home with him and will find a few more baubles I want.

So yeah it's fun wrenching but meeting and dealing with guys like you and him are where the real fun is for me!!

Thanks


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

13mpg said:


> 'Yo 68GTO fun? Fun to drive that's for sure. I've been wrenching on my own cars since 1970 lol. I had major abdominal surgery about 3 weeks ago so I need to hire stuff out now. Mike is awesome to watch too.
> 
> What's more fun is finding a brand NEW sway bar on offer up
> for $50 bucks 15 minutes from my house AND meeting another Pontiac enthusiast that ALSO sold me a solid PVC not wimpy plastic fan shroud too!
> ...


Like your attitude, its inspiring. Best wishes on your recovery, it can be annoyingly slow. Last August I had to have major lumbar back surgery (artificial discs, plates, pins, screws, etc.). The surgeons cut a 8" vertical incision from my belly button down and went through in there to access the front of the vertebrae for repairs. Then sewed/glued me up, flipped me over and went in the back to finish the job (and me). Even though doctors are checking it, that stomach incision is still SLOW to heal, I really hope your's does better than this. May you be blessed with a quick recovery.

Glad you have good friends and are enjoying your GTO! Great find on your sway bar!:smile3:


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## 13mpg (Jan 8, 2018)

Update on engine build. Well Paul send me a couple photos this week and gave me some news.

He started taking engine apart and found a couple cracks in the lifter valley. Someone tried fixing them some time ago. Were not leaking while I drove it so since original block to car he will do what he can to improver/repair those.

Also two broken rings one in two cylinders. We did not know this but the engine has been out and it's already bored out 40 over so he will have to go 60 over.

Also the common water divider plate corroded away.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

*13mpg*: "He started taking engine apart and found a couple cracks in the lifter valley. Someone tried fixing them some time ago. Were not leaking while I drove it so since original block to car he will do what he can to improver/repair those."

*PJ*: "With the money invested in engine rebuilds and the fact that the Pontiac engines were really not designed with roller cams in mind, I prefer to prevent a major failure before it happens - if it ever happens, why chance it? *These are 40 & 50 year old engine blocks and sometimes even new the castings may not be 100%*. So yes, my opinion, a lifter bore brace is a must with a roller cam"

Hmmmm. 

*bigD*: "Well, you seem to know quite a bit about Pontiac engines, and also seem to be quite opinionated, as are many of us on these Pontiac forums.

Paul Carter is a highly respected Pontiac engine builder. I assume he has built hundreds of Pontiac engines with roller cams. If he says a mild roller cam don't require a lifter bore brace, then I'd say that's a pretty decent opinion."

*PJ*: bigD, I may not be a highly respected Pontiac engine builder, nor built hundreds of Pontiac engines, but it seems what knowledge I do have reflects my top statement that 'These are 40 & 50 year old engine blocks and sometimes even new the castings may not be 100%.' You should hang around an old machine shop for a while and see some of the factory casting flaws and how they are actually fixed by the factory -if it is salvageable, they are not going to throw away a good core. I can give you the name of my machinist if you like and he and his brother who have been building engines of all kinds for 40 years can share some of their stories. Enough said. Point proven.


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