# Help! Looking at '65 Project



## georgegervin44 (Nov 19, 2014)

All, hello. Been lurking awhile and may have had a diamond drop in my lap. 1965, #'s matching, 4 barrel, 389, 2 speed auto. PS. Almost zero rust, engine Nd tranny have been used in other car for a decade, car has been garaged and in pieces for 30 years. Engine had nearly 200k miles on it before it was taken apart and has been rebuilt since. All parts are present, bagged and tagged. Original paint with some touch up.

What should I pay for her???

Thanks In advance!


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Need pictures. If it's apart and not a running/driving car, less than 8k for sure. An automatic 4bbl GTO is a base GTO, and worth less coin than a stickshift or tripower (or both) car. Very nice driver quality automatic 4bbl '65 GTO's can be had for 25k or less in the present market. The cost of restoring one, however, even a good one, is going to be 30k-60k and up. Very easy to spend a lot more on a project car than it'll be worth. But, please, post some pics and we'll be able to narrow it down.


----------



## georgegervin44 (Nov 19, 2014)

Thanks!

Trying to link to photobucket album...might need to do this from another device. If during the restore I shoot for a Day 2 and go with the Tri Power do I capture that value? Or is the original spec the be all end all?

Sorry I'm as green as they come!







geeteeohguy said:


> Need pictures. If it's apart and not a running/driving car, less than 8k for sure. An automatic 4bbl GTO is a base GTO, and worth less coin than a stickshift or tripower (or both) car. Very nice driver quality automatic 4bbl '65 GTO's can be had for 25k or less in the present market. The cost of restoring one, however, even a good one, is going to be 30k-60k and up. Very easy to spend a lot more on a project car than it'll be worth. But, please, post some pics and we'll be able to narrow it down.


----------



## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

This is perhaps one of the most common questions/topics in the industry regardless of make or model. To assist your efforts you need to lay out what you can or will do personally, what your mechanical and fabrication talents are, and give an honest assessment of the car's condition. While cool as hell the engine and trans were reunited with the car it doesn't matter if it was originally a lower end model. The work is the same but it ends there. Next, what are the plans for it? I'm a "day 2" fan myself and that seems to be gaining a bit of momentum in the market. That direction is very easy to screw up though. Wrong wheel/tire combinations, tachs and gauges slapped in from any period, braided stainless buulcrap, nothing even close to a true 60s day 2. Real parts cost money and require patience to find. Done well they can indeed exceed what the generic restoration will bring. But getting back to cost, suppose the car needed a 1/4 panel. An Asian import replacement is so bad I refuse to do em. I'd source the real thing from out west and proceed from there. Total hours that way are nearly the same but the salvaged part needs to be brought up to spec before installation. Floors are a pain sometimes and you can count on twice the rust you see if any. Then you mentioned the car sitting for 30yrs. It was 20yrs old already, and unless it was pampered by western weather or a loving owner road conditions took a toll twice as easy as what we see today (except Dodge trucks (!) ). Whatever you don't have to do you save roughly $65/hr in restoration costs. Your final estimate of value has to come from averaged totals of recorded sales. "My buddy got $75K for his..." doesn't play. Mecum results are a good source, even Old Cars Price Guide can be a big help. At the end of all this babble, a good day 2 with kool parts and disciplined attention to detail can see mid to high 30s. At that point it has less to do with numbers and paper but they still rule the day. It has to be the real thing to begin with. As to it's current state, as was indicated above we need pics to guess a fair value, but I'd like to know what the current owner wants. Beware of those who "fish". A serious seller knows what they want in advance of offering it.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I agree with what triple6 said except for one thing: all else being equal, an original 4 speed tripower car will always command 35-50% more money than a like-restored but upgraded base model. That's the reality of it with GTO's., and pretty much all muscle cars. '40 Fords, not so much. Packard 120's, not so much.


----------



## georgegervin44 (Nov 19, 2014)

Great replies, guys!

Trying pics now...


----------



## georgegervin44 (Nov 19, 2014)

Second set of pics


----------



## georgegervin44 (Nov 19, 2014)

Whew! Glad those uploaded.
With regard to how much work I’d be doing: very little to a moderate amount of ‘turning a wrench.’ Due to work and family constraints, I’d hope to get it underway in the next 5 years. Don’t mind being upside down by $10k when it’s all said and done. My Dad is a big C2 Vette guy and #’s matching with orig equip is huge in that market. Wondered if the same applied here? Also, my vernacular may be off a bit: when I say Day 2, I’m thinking of adding things that were options originally on the 65, not necessarily aftermarket products that were available in that era.


----------



## PONTIAC CLASS (Feb 4, 2014)

*Original Paint With Touch Up*

When you say original paint with touch up what was the original color?
Did the seller give you "an out the door price" and it is yours?
Do you have pictures of the bagged and numbered parts you mentioned?


----------



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

georgegervin44 said:


> All, hello. Been lurking awhile and may have had a diamond drop in my lap. 1965, #'s matching, 4 barrel, 389, 2 speed auto. PS. Almost zero rust, engine Nd tranny have been used in other car for a decade, car has been garaged and in pieces for 30 years. Engine had nearly 200k miles on it before it was taken apart and has been rebuilt since. All parts are present, bagged and tagged. Original paint with some touch up.
> 
> What should I pay for her???
> 
> Thanks In advance!


Looks like more than "almost zero rust" based on your photos. I would want some good photos of the frame and under carriage if you haven't got any.

I get nervous when someone else claims the engine has been rebuilt; define "rebuilt". I would rather have it as is so that I could rebuild it and know what was in the engine and what machine work had been performed on it. A rebuilt engine is not always a plus in my book. 

Looks like a ground up, but not frame off, is needed. Has definite potential. With all those years on it, my guess is that dry rot has taken its toll on rubber and possibly interior pieces. Remember that these older cars do not wear like the cars of today. At 60,000 miles, front-ends become worn out, engines were tired, rear suspensions got loose, etc., so expect to rebuild most of the car. What is the original miles on the car? 

Numbers matching is a good thing for someone who wants that. My opinion on its value because of numbers matching is that you would have to find a very specific buyer, especially wanting the 2 speed automatic, and along with this, a restoration back to factory original would have to go with that. To upgrade the engine with a tri-power/more HP and 4-speed/OD automatic and go after a performance build would most likely appeal to a broader buyer market and may actually pull a higher value in resale if done right, while not necessarily having to go all original and including modern upgrades like disc brakes & sway bars.

To go numbers matching and then follow up with an original resto may become costly and may not yield your investment back. Of course if you simply plan on keeping it a lifetime and are not interested in selling it once you have possession of it, then cost may be irrelavent -like most of us, they become projects that never "quite" get finished and we keep putting more money into them.:thumbsup:


----------



## georgegervin44 (Nov 19, 2014)

These replies are why these forums are great. Lots to chew on!

OTD price $10k (asking price with zero negotiation as of yet). The original color was nightwatch blue, black interior. He has said that in the 70's original owner 'touched up' with matching paint. I have seen the boxes of parts stacked 8 foot high, but not inside of them yet. Seller is trustworthy and has guaranteed everything he is advertising. I would also conduct the PHS paperwork to be sure equip is legit.

Re specific buyers for the auto and 389, non-Tri-Power...I'd likely do the Tri upgrade and possibly the transmission (need to brush up on those options). Are original PB/PS/etc options good or seen as 'power draining?'

I suppose a good question might be: How hard is it to locate a #'s matching 389 Tri-Power hardtop in a similar condition? What would you estimate a setup like this would fetch?

Also, dumb question: Is the only difference between the coupe and hardtop the pillar separating the front/rear windows? I see that the coupe is much rarer production-wise.


----------



## ppurfield001 (Jan 21, 2008)

georgegervin44 said:


> All, hello. Been lurking awhile and may have had a diamond drop in my lap. 1965, #'s matching, 4 barrel, 389, 2 speed auto. PS. Almost zero rust, engine Nd tranny have been used in other car for a decade, car has been garaged and in pieces for 30 years. Engine had nearly 200k miles on it before it was taken apart and has been rebuilt since. All parts are present, bagged and tagged. Original paint with some touch up.
> 
> What should I pay for her???
> 
> Thanks In advance!


Totally different topic. Are you the actual George Gervin (the "Iceman") that played with the Spurs? If so, I always enjoyed your play when you came to play the Nets on Long Island...


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Here's my take, being into these cars for the past 35+ years: I would not pay more than $3500 for the car. If it was not stripped and disassembled, it would be worth more. This is someone elses stalled project, with more rust than I thought. Finding/fixing/installing all of the missing pieces = a TON of TIME and MONEY. I have seen much more solid, better equipped comparable basket cases in CA in the past 2 years, and they were hard sells at $4500. One was even an Iris Mist 4 speed car.....in much better shape than this one. Me? $3500 or walk away. Period.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

A numbers-matching, '65 4 speed tripower GTO just sold on the other forum for $12k. It had more rust than 'your' car, but ran and drove fine, had original paint and interior, and wasn't stripped. A good value, since TP/4spd cars are worth a bunch more than stripper cars. PS and PB are a good thing, as well as AC. Not so much, then, but now, they add value and really don't affect power. Hardtop is no post, Coupe is post and frame around door for windows. Coupe rarer because it wasn't as popular due to its appearance. The hardtop is cleaner. The coupe was preferred by racers due to its added rigidity. Again, my advice would be to look at more '65's, before you get emotional and pay too much for this one. Look at as many as you can, in all price ranges. Information is power and will save you $$$!


----------



## georgegervin44 (Nov 19, 2014)

Brother, this is good info! On the 'other forum'? The For Sale forum here? Cool.

If it were assembled what value would you affix to it?

If I were the original Iceman I'd be dropping $80k for a redone, rebuilt 65 convertible LOL!


----------



## ppurfield001 (Jan 21, 2008)

georgegervin44 said:


> Brother, this is good info! On the 'other forum'? The For Sale forum here? Cool.
> 
> If it were assembled what value would you affix to it?
> 
> If I were the original Iceman I'd be dropping $80k for a redone, rebuilt 65 convertible LOL!



Touche.


----------



## georgegervin44 (Nov 19, 2014)

Would there happen to be a link to the one you mentioned that just sold? I'm def backing off the one I've been asking about, at least at anywhere near his initial asking. Don't mind him starting there, but he def has emotional attachment plus it's hi unfinished project, as you mentioned.

If I could find a driver for under $15k, I'd be all over it.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The 'other' forum is Performance Years, or pyforumsonline. You can search for the car there, probably in the '64-'65 section. This car sold recently, needed a complete restoration, but was the 'right' car in every way. Plus, it was un-touched and operational. An owners emotional attachment to his unfinished project is just that: his emotional attachment. It has no bearing on reality and pricing. If he had left the car assembled, he could expect to get a lot more for it. As it sits, $3500 is the maximum value, IMO. It will likely need 60k put into it to make it a 40k car.


----------



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Agree that 10K is way too much unless it came with a boat load of new parts to complete the car. This car is one of those deals where the owner really doesn't want to sell it, but if he got his price, he might. I see many cars at car shows that are for sale and some prices are crazy, and I see the same car every year, still for sale at an absurd price. Owner really doesn't want to sell it, but the wife does, so he appeases her by putting the absurd price on it and of course it doesn't sell and he sadly has to return it back to *his* garage. :lol:

Take your time and do a lot of reading on what it will honestly take to rebuild/restore a car based on its condition when found. It doesn't even have to be a GTO, just cars in general. Look at what was spent on the rebuild and what the selling prices are. Some cars are indeed "rarer" than others and of course are worth investing $50,000 to get $80,000 out of it. But to take a $5,000 car that only yields a $25,000 return and sink $40,000 into it is not something you look to make money on, but perhaps something you simply want to own and hang on to or it was tied to some memories of your past. 

I also suggest you get/order as many GTO/Lemans/Tempest parts suppliers catalogs and look at the prices. You will get an idea of what costs will be incurred when you do look at a project car. This also gives you ammunition when you know what you will have to invest as measured by the sellers price. Get an idea of what an engine rebuild goes for, a trans rebuild or swap, front suspension rebuild/upgrades, rear end rebuild/upgrade, etc.. -once again, break it down into major groups like this so you have an idea of costs when you go looking to buy. The more informed you are, the better deal you will come out with. *AND* don't discount the Lemans or Tempest as they can be purchased at lower prices and can be outfitted with all the same good stuff found on a GTO (I'm not talking clones either, just keep it what it is). :thumbsup:


----------



## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

That's a little harsh gee'guy, not hateful but a little 40 grit. Now that I've seen it I'd take the sum of it's parts and multiply by .75 max, .60 min. Now by the sum of it's parts I mean all the good stuff. The hood, grilles, seats (frames), rear axle, engine as a whole or parts, etc. I'm not saying to part it out, but at the same time there's some true value there for someone who can do some of it. "...8 ft tall boxes..." could be good and bad. I've seen cars with parts jambed in willy nilly. Recently a 37 packard 12 where the glass lenses were in with motor mounts and of course broken. I'd take every car I could get in this condition for $3500. The difference is I'm in the rust belt where they simply got consumed by both power hungry Motown hoards and road salt. If it was a runner as found it's surely $7500-8500 as a deal, $10K as an "end user" price. 

Also, IMHO, a true "day 2" has the goods from both the speed shop and the dealer. Wheels and tires 1st, better tach, louder exhaust, real gauges vs idiot lights and are usually knee knockers. And last but not least a better or upgraded shifter with the gratuitous T handle. GTOs were out 1st and most likely the fastest that the general public could buy so you usually see them closer to stock with a kickin set of rollers on em. And don't forget gears and chrome diff covers. All seen very frequently in the heydays of Motown Muscle. Who remembers the Javelin commercial where the kid stuck a blower on his new car? And our local stations had speed shop ads from hell back then, not just on car channels like today's cable. Good stuff...


----------



## georgegervin44 (Nov 19, 2014)

Hope you all had a nice Thanksgiving! Just spitballing here and looking for some rough estimates from the resident experts:

If I wanted to take a 4bbl to Tripower what can I expect to spend? Add PS? 4-speed Transmission? AC?

Thanks!


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Tripower: $2000, PS: $600-$800, 4-speed: $800-$2000, AC: $2000.


----------



## georgegervin44 (Nov 19, 2014)

My thanks to you, sir! Taking this advice and making a run at saving her!


----------



## georgegervin44 (Nov 19, 2014)

You know, I've watched two Similar Ebay '65 projects Sell for $10k+. What am I missing?


----------



## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

You're not missing anything. Careful examination of the differences should be exercised. Are those original motor "papered" cars that sold? Were they together or apart like the one you've inquired about? $10K could easily be the sum of their parts, and as a baseline for a resto-mod that's not entirely out of line were a builder to sell off all the "old stuff". Just speculating a bit but it seems to be what I see happening in some shops here in Motown.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

George, you should go back to the beginning and re-read the posts on this thread. Slow down a bit. The GTO you are looking at has none of the high performance 'stuff' that builders re-sell to make up costs. It's a 389, 4v, 2-speed, low option car. Never going to be a high dollar car, even as a parts car. No tripower. No gauges. No 4 speed. No posi. Again, it's a $3500 starting point if you want to jump on it. Nowhere _NEAR_ 10k.


----------



## georgegervin44 (Nov 19, 2014)

I'm slowing down. 

I'm thinking the end point here might be $6-6500...moving in that direction. Allowing for the fact it's nearby so no shipping costs ($500-1k), and I'd be really uncomfortable buying a project off the internet sight unseen...what do you think?

No plans to part it, just to save it and add the options that I'd personally like to have on her. Worst case: I buy, don't get to it, then sell it myself in 5-10 years and spring for a driver that's 75% restored (can't swing $20k+ currently).


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Wise move not to buy a project sight unseen. Get a parts catalog from AMES or one of the other suppliers and inventory and price every part that car will need to bring it back. That'll give you something to do, and let you know where you stand regarding parts cost. Remember, labor is something else completely. I recently looked at a rust free but banged up 4 speed '66 GTO convertible with a 4bbl. Parts alone to bring it back were in the $20,000 range. And that didn't include the engine rebuild, bodywork, and paint. I was looking at a $30-$40,000 outlay, not including the 10k price of the car....with me doing ALL the labor. So, I'd of had $50k into a $40-$50k car at the end, after a LOT of time and labor. I passed.


----------



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I don't think we are trying to discourage you, just advise you. I know in some areas, GTO's, let alone Pontiacs, are hard to find and when they do become available for sale, they go for prices much higher than they might normally in an area where Pontiacs are a bit easier to find. My area is like this. 

I would not purchase anything I could not see because each owner has a different eye for what they think is good and what you think is good. We have all had the experience of driving a good distance in the hope to get that great "deal" only to find a rust bucket in such poor shape that it was not worth your gas money to view it. And, transportation/shipping costs have to be considered.

10K for that GTO is indeed too high for what it is and what you are getting. $6,500 is still too high, but your area might support higher priced Pontiac values and it is local. 

You could piece it together, get it running "Rat Rod" or rough looking and just enjoy the heck out of it. I have a '68 Lemans which I did just that. Rebuilt the suspension, brakes, and driveline. Gutted interior and shot a coat of primer gray over the rusty & dented body. Wide white letter tires out back, skinnies up front, blacked out factory rims. I wanted to just drive it and have fun -and I did, had a blast. Now, 10 or so years later, body-off frame rebuild/resto-mod that is more HP, bullet-proof driveline, pricey, and taking me more time than anticipated because there is only so many hours in a day and it seems every free weekend it rains! LOL.

Bottom line is, if you can afford it and you want it, buy it, but buy it without regret or anticipation. If you do sell it 5-10 years from now and you lose your shirt because no one wants to buy it at your purchase price, then accept it now that that could happen. I have sold cars thinking I _should_ get much more for them only to lose money on the car at the price I paid for it. I can hold out, or sell the car to move it, free up cash for another project, and accept the loss -which I usually do. The cars I have sold are "project" cars that I know what I could do with it based on my skills. I simply don't have the time or money - and too many projects. If I paid someone else to do the work, I would probably have to mortgage my house, and I know I would never be able to sell the car at a price higher than what I invested into it.

Again, we are not trying to dissuade you from making the purchase, simply being honest with you and making you aware of why "we" would not purchase the car at 10K and what it may cost to restore the car versus its value on the open market. Its your call.:thumbsup:


----------



## georgegervin44 (Nov 19, 2014)

Thanks, Jim and Guy. In your opinion, what would this car fetch if it were together and running? Estimate cost for mechanic to put back together, as is? Also, regarding engine conversions to unleaded, what should I be on the lookout for here, insofar as alterations that affect value/performance?

Edit: I see $10k as a driver was mentioned earlier, so I suppose I'm looking for guidance on a ballpark to have mechanic put it back together.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Hopefully 666bbl will chime in here. Engine-wise, no unleaded conversion needed. It'll be fine as-is. Will need dished pistons to run on low octane fuel. The ballpark fee to re-assemble the car where I am would be about 12-15k, figuring $100-$120 per hour labor (which is the going rate). This not including the engine. Or any paint work. Just re-assembly with some rust repair and the components re-installed. So, you'd have a minimum of $22-$25k invested total, and be driving a 10k car. _If you are not able to put the car back together yourself, you need to buy a completed car or at least one that has not been taken apart and given up on. This one is not the one for you. _


----------



## georgegervin44 (Nov 19, 2014)

Dang. Even at 2/3 of your projection I'm in a world of hurt in a hurry.

Guy, PM on the way, good sir.


----------



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

georgegervin44 said:


> Thanks, Jim and Guy. In your opinion, what would this car fetch if it were together and running? Estimate cost for mechanic to put back together, as is? Also, regarding engine conversions to unleaded, what should I be on the lookout for here, insofar as alterations that affect value/performance?
> 
> Edit: I see $10k as a driver was mentioned earlier, so I suppose I'm looking for guidance on a ballpark to have mechanic put it back together.


I am with geeteeohguy on this one. If you cannot do a lot of the work yourself on a "project car" such as this one at the purchase price you are already starting with, then it would cost you a considerable amount to have someone else assemble/rebuild the car just to get it in a drivable condition. You would be far better off to purchase a drivable car, even if in need of work, and then go from there. If you have to pay someone each time you need work done on any car, it will be expensive, just as any car is.

I'd tell the owner that for 10K, it needs to be together, running, legal, and let him do it. Otherwise, I don't feel this is a wise investment for you.


----------



## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

As apart as the car is you're looking at 4 weeks to bring it back to safe and usable. I'd have to ask why. It's apart already which in and of itself is anywhere from 40 to 60 man hours depending on how it was torn down. I personally do it with preservation in mind vs the common "...get a new one..." approach. It's not a 57 Chevy or Model A Ford (which can damned near be assembled from all new parts). A recent example, 2 guys removed the windshield and rear glass from a 62 Impala. No stainless was tweeked, no glass was cracked, it took 2 guys 2hrs to safely remove and store the parts. Nothing broken and even saved all the clips. That's 4 shop hours @ $60 (my rate). To simply inventory everything can take 2 guys all day. Now understand, EVERYTHING I do goes in the same direction, as new and authentic as possible. That means wiring, fasteners, finishes, body fit (usually better), weather seals that actually work, and on and on and on. It adds up fast. 1200 to 2000 hours to do a complete bare frame up restoration is about the norm for a good car. I don't plate, sew or do any heavy machine work. That's out-sourced to qualified suppliers and colleagues. The worse the car is, the more it needs in the way of missing or irreparable parts, the higher the final tab will be. I also bill every week. It may be 20hrs, it may be 120 if 3 guys stayed on it all week to finish it off. And if this sounds like a wonderful way to make a living, well in some ways it is and in others, not so much. 

SO why do others do it? Who spends like that when they can just buy it done? Those who need to know and document how well it's done from the inside out. Ever see on TV where they say "...and now it goes to 'mud'..."? Seriously? You'd pay $120/hr to have someone frost your whole car in friggin bondo? Not in my place. Do I use filler? Sure I do, but it has to pass the refrigerator magnet test. If it sticks through the filler I'm ok with that because it's not enough to cause issues later on. There's so much more but it may be beyond the scope of your plans, or maybe for the next couple years you want what you want and the market can pound sand. Your choice to make. Enuff for now...


----------



## hooperk (May 21, 2010)

I've seen this car in my searches for quite awhile at least a year. this tells me it's a bit high in price. if the car was truly rust free it might be worth 8. without the 4 speed and tri power it's hard to justify the 10.


----------

