# 64 Lemans Convert - SHOULD I Restore as GTO or Lemans?



## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

Some of you that know me, know that I'm kind of out of control with my collection and restorations. welcome2.html

I've had this '64 Lemans numbers 326 for about 7 years now in one of my buildings. I picked it up in Indiana from the original owner back in '07 and have other resto projects ahead of it. I'm going to restore it this winter, as this winter's project.

There are SO MANY '64 Lemans cars that have been converted to GTO, that I wondering if I shouldn't just do a stock restore, rebuild the 326 and the powerglide and keep it at that. I know I can find a steel hood for 2k, and that's not the issue, it's the Lemans or GTO issue.

The car was either undercoated at the factory or by the dealer. There is little surface rust on frame, and a piece of undercoating came of the gas tank, and it shines like new under there.

Let me through this in the mix.....I have a YEAR matching '64 389 303HP with the TH400 attached to it still. I'm thinking that I could restore it as a Lemans, but as long as I have to rebuild either the 326 or the 389, rebuild the 389 with TH, and then just save the the 326/PG so if I ever sell it the buyer can have the original numbers engine and trans with it.

The car is all original and never been messed with. The only metal that I really need to replace is the full trunk and braces, which surprises me a little because the car was undercoated. I'm thinking because the gas tank was in when the undercoating was shot, that's why the trunk floor rusted out. The floors are all solid as a rock.

Here are some pix of her. Look forward to your comments and ideas. Most of the Pontiac people I poled said to keep it as a Lemans, but others liked the 389 idea.

Dave


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## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

*64 Lemans More Pix*

More pix


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

I would try and keep it as much original as possible. That said i would build the 389 and keep the 326 to go with it (what i have done with my Tempest). Replace the trunk pan and any worn suspension and brake parts. Clean and detail the interior and new carpet. Touch-up and rub out the paint and drive it like i stole it. That is a very nice car as it sits and a true Pontiac lover (buyer) will appreciate it's originality and a paint job would probably lower the value over an original paint car.


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## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm tempted to do just that, rebuild the 389/TH and put it in. I'm going to have to put 3k in the engine anyway, so it's going to have to be one or the other.

As far as the paint goes, it's got a bad repaint original color on her, so that's going to be redone. I'm basically going to do a ground up on it, starting with springs, front end rebuild, trunk and undercoating.

Then all new Legendary interior, pull the convert top mech and restore, new top, well, pads any mech bushings.

Restore everything else with the exception of wheel well moldings and rocker trim which I just got from Classic Industries.

It needs quarter patch panels (lower) so I'm going to just take the car down to bare metal and go from there.

Here's one I did a couple years ago, but it's a 242.

Dave


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## silversport (Mar 23, 2007)

keep yours as a Lemans...it has some unique to Lemans parts, right???...I would put the built 389 in it for driving but keep the 326 as well...

Bill


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## FNG69 (Nov 15, 2009)

My vote also is to keep it as a LeMans, but drop the 389 in it. Put the painted valve covers from the 326 and know one will know the different. Doing the same thing to a 64 Tempest wagon now. Love those 64's!!!!!!!!!


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## silversport (Mar 23, 2007)

nice grocery gett'r
Bill


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

A LeMans is the way to go. Put in a bigger engine, etc. if you want. But leave the car pure. Clones are a lie, IMO.....meant to decieve. No longer a LeMans, and not a GTO. LeMans's are excellent cars, and getting to be as rare as hens teeth, due to cloning loss. Nice project, BTW!


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Nice convertible with factory Red on Red, P/S and brakes? No brainer, keep it a Lemans and upgrade to the 389 (or stroke it to 400+ cubes ) with lower compression and keep it stock looking. Maybe some M/T valve covers and RA exhaust manifolds and one of those cool looking louvered 14" air cleaners.....

Have fun with her OP, you've got a great project there.


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## RunninLeMans (Apr 3, 2014)

Nice car, Dave, I agree, keep it true to the LeMans nameplate and keep the stock parts. And if you change your mind and decide to sell it, lemme know!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I'm on board with everyone else -LeMans for sure. So tired of GTO Clones and my most hated phrase "Tribute Car."

The 389 would be nice and a no brainer per say and it would be what MOST Pontiac guys would do, BUT..... did you know in '64 Pontiac offered the 326HO? Keep it LeMans and follow through by keeping it 326. 

"In 1964, Pontiac’s top-of-the-line mid-size performance car was supposed to be the Tempest LeMans H.O. Packing a 280hp 326ci engine with a Carter AFB four-barrel carb, dual exhaust, and demanding premium fuel, it was going to be a runner. Then Pontiac snuck the GTO through the back door, and the LeMans H.O. became Pontiac’s forgotten musclecar. While the value guides have also forgotten the LeMans H.O., this is a very rare car. Pontiac built 32,450 GTOs in 1964. In contrast, it built 4,819 code-945 326 H.O. engines for use with standard-shift transmission."

326CI/280HP, Head Cast 394 -1.92" intake &1.66 exhaust, Cam 441 -same as the 254 cam used on the low HP 389 & 400 engines & 350CI 1965-1970, 4Bbl, 10.25 Compression.

Your 389CI heads are the same as the 326HO heads -valves & chamber size. Keep in mind that the 389CI will need premium gas or more with 10.25 compression. Your intake and carb would also fit this application -or go aftermarket, or '64 tri-power. I would do a gasket match & little port/polish on the heads. 3-angle valve job. 1964 Heads are pressed in studs and oil flows through the head and rocker arm studs. My book says as long as you do not use springs over 280 lbs open pressure, the studs will hold up -so you probably can get a good modern cam grind to work on this engine. Dual exhaust. If using headers, the smaller 1 5/8" is suggested, but you might even use the Ram Air cast manifolds for better breathing.

Get a TH-350 as they require less HP to turn than the TH-400, but the TH-400 will certainly work seeing you have it.

Use the 1964-67 326-V style fender emblems -they look sportier.

I think you could probably squeeze 300 HP making it close to the 389CI you have. It would make a great cruising engine. I would definitely use forged rods, which ever engine you choose, as they are cheap and far better insurance than the factory cast rods. I think it should rev to 5,800-6,000 with cast pistons, but you will most likely have to go custom forged pistons like Ross - then you may be able to use a dished piston to lower your compression a bit.

Just my opinion.:thumbsup:


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Some great tips from all, yes I agree that keeping it a Lemans is cool. But putting in the 389 and Th400 and keeping the 326 and 2 speed trans is a great idea as well. The 326 with the Th400 will work as well. I have a 66 Lemans 326. I put a Th350 in it yesterday I got from Coan Racing. There street trans but they build em sting.

Got a tour of the Coan racing factory, wow. They actually machine some of the trans gears from giant billet rods of steel and aluminum. They build the converters as well.

The 326 I have runs smooth and the TH350 will help as well. it has dual exhaust and the HO exhaust manifolds but is not an HO. I like the 9.2 compression on the 326, not sure I want 10.5 though. With the distributor curved on the 326 it is a nice cruiser.

You 64 is an awesome vehicle.....those cars were cool as they came!:thumbsup:


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## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

Thanks for the comprehensive info on the 326 HO. I did know about some of this, but your information is appreciated.

All that said and done, now you've really put me on the fence on whether I should do this or not.

Let me explain, the car is not a 4bbl car, it's a 2bbl. So yes, big deal, I need a cast HO intake and 4bbl and cleaner, which I would have to find.

What happened yesterday is, I found a 242 '64 GTO with no drive train and made the decision to use the '64 489 and trans in it, IF I buy it. Then, keep the 326 a stock rebuild as it is with 2bbl and single exhaust.

The 326 single exhaust manifolds probably won't work if I do an HO rebuild or will they? If I did do the HO as you suggest to the engine when I rebuild it I could probably get away with using the stock exhaust since I'll fab my own dual exhaust anyway if I went that route.

So bottom line would be to end up with 10.5? The 326 has 95k miles on it and while it does run good (I'm tearing the car down now) it has some smoke I cold start, so on the rebuild I was going to do a minimal bore if I need to which probably means pistons, ARP's etc etc. Which now has me thinking too, if I do bore it out even for a stock build and put a very mild cam in it, that's probably THAT for the 2bbl and single exhaust anyway????

*BODY*
The only REALLY bad parts of metal are the trunk pan and braces, trunk extensions, both lower rear quarters and rear body bushings. The front RH lower quarter (ordered patch panel yesterday). Made some patches yesterday for the front and rear wheel houses that someone glassed up.

It's always the same thing. You start tearing into the obvious rust and open a Can 'O Worms finding more to do, or most of the time re-doing someone else's cobbled up job. Must have been restored once about 30 years ago because I'm finding braising on some patch welds. The pic with all the rust is the RH side, which believe it or not is much better than the LH side was.:smile2: I'll make the trunk extension and wheel house patches for it today and finish up the rear and start pulling clip etc.

Here's some pix of the trunk and a pic of the '64 GTO HT I found. Was a factory 4 spd car.


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Everyone and their brother turns cars into GTOs... Keep her a Lemans and be different! There are several reasons I can think of to keep her original... historical, correct, don't follow the crowd.... I'm a big if it were meant to be a XXX it would have been built an XXX.

Nice work on that other car, I'd look forward to see what you do with this one.


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## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

I agree.


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## Mikesan (Apr 2, 2011)

My take would be to keep the original 326 and trans in it. They are only worth something in this car. No one else would want much for them. There is always a demand for the 389/TH400 combo. Put me in the column of those who do not like clones/tributes. They shed doubt on the real thing.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Grumpy, no expert on all this, just my opinion and a few things you might consider in making your decision. A little leg work/emails will probably nail done better specifics on putting together a 326CI combo that could be fun and different.

Replace the 2Bbl intake with another early 389 4Bbl intake off any Pontiac -doesn't have to be "HO", should be easy enough to find. Go with a late model AFB to complete it. Might use a factory air cleaner, but drill the big holes into the sides to let more air in. It isn't Pontiac "correct", but it will get people's attention and stir conversation! Get/make up a 326HO decal to put on top of the air cleaner lid. 

Stock exhaust manifolds would work also, just as you said. Don't know what size the manifold outlets are, but if they are 2" or smaller, then I would get the flare end made up that fits the manifold at a muffler shop, cut it off a few inches, then use an exhaust pipe reducer that will go from manifold pipe size to 2 1/4" or maybe even 2 1/2" and weld it on. Then fit/attach your front pipes(if you make your "adapter", you could probably then have your local muffler shop bend/fit/weld you a set of front pipes to work) I did this with my '68 Lemans with single exhaust when I dropped in a 400CI, but went up to 3" pipe and fabbed my own exhaust using elbow's and straight pipe -it worked. I figured the stock exhaust manifolds provided enough back pressure so I wanted as little restriction after the manifolds. Had no problem and it sounded good.

The 10.25 compression is my mistake going by the same head numbers & combustion chamber size for both the 389 & 326. The 326 appears to have a 8.6 compression, so there may be a piston difference, ie dished? The 326 head also uses a smaller 1.88" intake and 1.60" exhaust valve. However, the same ID numbered head on a 389CI is listed as having the 1.92" & 1.66" exhaust valves. So I am assuming that you could use your 326 head and have your machine shop fit the 1.92" & 1.66" to your heads per the 389CI heads.

Now I found this info related to a 1967 326CI:

CAMSHAFT

You can only use the first comp or lunati cam with your stock 8.6 compression.

comp xe256h rpm 1000-5200 no smaller ac power brake friendly
comp xe262h rpm 1300-5500
Comp xe268h rpm 1600-5800 no larger

Lunati voodoo 256 p/n 10510701 or 60901 rpm 1000-5300,ac power brakes friendly
Lunati voodoo 262 p/n 10510702 or 60902 rpm 1300-5500
Lunati voodoo 268 p/n 10510703 or 60903 rpm 1600-5800 may need stall conv,


DYNO RESULTS

The following results represent different build combinations for your motor (using the comp xe256 or Lunati voodoo 256 cam).

I also ran the larger xe262h cam and there were only very small gains. You need headers to get over 300hp plus if you use a medium rise dual plane intake like a performer rpm you will gain big hp but also massive torque at much lower rpm’s. torque is king! Medium rise intake is more important than headers if you don’t want headers

carb 600 for small cam 650 for larger cam
compression 8.6 vs 9.2
exhaust high perf cast iron stock [more flow than yours]
intake  low rise dual plane aluminum
cam xe256h
valves stock 188/166

hp 246 hp at 4500 331 at 3500 torque w 8.6 compression
hp 262 hp at 5000 348 at 3500 torque w 9.5 compression
hp 281 hp at 5000 360 at 3500 torque w 8.5 compression and small headers
hp 296 hp at 5000 377 at 3500 torque w 9.5 compression and smallheaders 
hp 320 hp at 5000 387 at 2500 torque w 9.5 compression and small headers and dual plane performer rpm type intake.

From: High Performance Pontiac Forums at High Performance Pontiac Magazine

Pistons can be supplied by Egge and may give you a little more compression. You really don't want any more than 9.0 and a Competiton Cams XE series cam on a 110 LSA works really well on a low compression engine such as the factory 8.6. Found this link on the 326CI pistons. Just click on it.

326 Pistons Front View Photo 1


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## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

Yep, I know, Mike. I've done so many clones of GM and Mopar cars, it's nice to have a REAL one that's not changed in any visible way, with original drive train. I think I salivate now when I get a car that has the stock exhaust manifolds and air cleaner.


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## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

Jim, thanks for that knock my socks off info. Good stuff. I like the idea about the holes in the air cleaner. 

I guess what's getting me now is just changing anything from what it was from the factory, including the 2 bbl, single exhaust and slush box. Not that I'm a 100% purist, but maybe 90%. I know the cost is going to be about the same on the resto, perhaps a little higher if I do the 326 HO option, but that's not my concern. I think I want to go 100% or just clone it and be done with it.

In saying all this, I am going to upgrade the front brakes to disc with new booster and double res. I think a mod like this, while not original would be okay?

BTW, I HAVE printed out your last 2 messages and their in my '64 folder so I can show the builder. I job the engines out.

Dave


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## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

Quick question on the '64 trunk. Was it spatter coated or just painted same as body color?
Thanks,
Dave


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Grumpy said:


> Jim, thanks for that knock my socks off info. Good stuff. I like the idea about the holes in the air cleaner.
> 
> I guess what's getting me now is just changing anything from what it was from the factory, including the 2 bbl, single exhaust and slush box. Not that I'm a 100% purist, but maybe 90%. I know the cost is going to be about the same on the resto, perhaps a little higher if I do the 326 HO option, but that's not my concern. I think I want to go 100% or just clone it and be done with it.
> 
> ...


OK, on the engine mods. As far as going CLONE - nah, don't do it. Going 100% on a Lemans probably won't bring in any bigger value if you decided to sell at some point. Rest-Mod on the other hand would most likely add value to the car and here is where I am OK with it. A warmed over engine is a plus in value. You are not really adding anything that can't be reversed -even the heads as new seat inserts could be added to bring the heads back to original sized valves, but why? The 2 speed auto would work, but again, I would rebuild it for a little more performance with HD clutch pack (assuming available), perhaps an aftermarket lower first gear ratio (if available -they have these for the powerglide, don't know if the Pontiac trans is the same?), and a better torque converter (you will buy a new converter anyway in a rebuild). TH-350 or TH-400 is probably a better selling point -an added plus. A modern 4-speed OD conversion would be even better, but I don't think the added expense would truly be worth it in this case, so I would not do it unless it was a daily driver. Of course a Muncie 4-speed would be your best option, but this is not inexpensive either and you would most likely have to change rear gears -don't think you could really get your money back with this conversion unless you went GTO clone. Disc brake conversion is a plus & safer stops -an added plus in resale. I would not have a problem with front & rear roll bars either to help handling/cornering -an added plus in resale.

A lot to consider and think about. I do this all the time with my project, but mine will be a keeper and a "toy" with limited driving -because I won't be able to afford but a few cup fulls of gas at a time!:lol: If there is one thing to think about is....just build it the way you want it to be so YOU will enjoy it and don't worry about the "other" guy who might buy it because he will change it around the way HE wants it -isn't that what we all do?:thumbsup:


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## FNG69 (Nov 15, 2009)

Grumpy said:


> Quick question on the '64 trunk. Was it spatter coated or just painted same as body color?
> Thanks,
> Dave


64's trunks were body color. The spatter painted trunks started in 65. Les


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

OP I see you were contemplating a complete teardown and rebuild of your 326. You indicated that it smoked on cold startup as the primary reason I just wanted to say that it could be something as simple as valve seals causing that.

Before you do a complete rebuild consider just doing the timing chain (good time to slip in that cam) and maybe a cylinder head "freshening" (or swap). Before doing a complete rebuild I would do a compression and leak down test of the cylinders. Very likely there are quite a few more miles in your 326 as she probably wasn't run as hard as the 389's and 400's were.

I also want to add if you are doing a complete overhaul that it really doesn't cost much more to rebuild the larger engine as the procedures are all the same and parts_ may_ actually be easier to find or less expensive for the more popular displacements.

If I were doing this car I would put in the larger engine (*if* a rebuild was necessary) and still dress it out as a 326........:wink2:


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## ppurfield001 (Jan 21, 2008)

geeteeohguy said:


> A LeMans is the way to go. Put in a bigger engine, etc. if you want. But leave the car pure. Clones are a lie, IMO.....meant to decieve. No longer a LeMans, and not a GTO. LeMans's are excellent cars, and getting to be as rare as hens teeth, due to cloning loss. Nice project, BTW!



I agree. Drop in the more powerful engine/tranny combo, keep the rest as a LeMans and save that 326 and PG so that you can sell it as "numbers matching drive train" in the future, if you so desire. Nice project (i.e., when the top goes down, the price goes up...). Good luck..........


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## RunninLeMans (Apr 3, 2014)

> I also want to add if you are doing a complete overhaul that it really doesn't cost much more to rebuild the larger engine as the procedures are all the same and parts may actually be easier to find or less expensive for the more popular displacements.


+1 ALKY. I started out thinking I'd save money rebuilding my 326, and in the end sunk ~$3,000 into it for maybe 300 hp/360 ft-lbs. In a way I like that my LeMans is mostly true to its roots, but part of me wishes I'd started with a block with bigger holes, all the parts and machine shop time would have been the same.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Very cool car Runnin. I still have my 326 on a stand with the 2 speed. Never even broke into it but i will keep it with the car. 
Like the guys are saying OP, either motor is gonna cost you 3,000 on up to build right so you may as well get the most bang for your buck with piston holes you can fit your fist into. Splurge on a set of forged H-beam rods and dished pistons to get your compression down under 9.5/1 for pump gas. If you stay under 500 HP a reconditioned original N crank will do just fine.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

'64 trunks were body color. No splatter. The only year A-body with this feature. You see a lot of high dollar 'restored' '64's with splatter paint trunks. It's not correct.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

RunninLeMans said:


> +1 ALKY. I started out thinking I'd save money rebuilding my 326, and in the end sunk ~$3,000 into it for maybe 300 hp/360 ft-lbs. In a way I like that my LeMans is mostly true to its roots, but part of me wishes I'd started with a block with bigger holes, all the parts and machine shop time would have been the same.


 How about a run down on what you put in your engine?
a. Heads - Factory 326 or other?
Bigger 1.92" valves or stock?
3 angle valve job?
Gasket match, port & polish?
b. Cam- What brand?
Hydraulic, solid, roller?
Specs?
c. Pistons - Cast or Forged?
Brand?
Flat top or dished?
Compression ratio?
d. Rods - Factory or Aftermarket Forged?
e. Intake - Factory AFB?
Stock carb/size or aftermarket/bigger?
f. Exhaust - Stock manifolds, cast Ram Air's, or headers?

What kind of performance from the engine do you have? Will it smoke the tires in 1st gear? 2nd gear? Does it wind up to 6,000RPM's or more? Gas mileage from the 326?

Your specs would be helpful for anyone thinking about building a 326CI and your driving impressions would also give some insight into the performance of the engine.:thumbsup:


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## RunninLeMans (Apr 3, 2014)

Jim - not to hijack the thread, but here's the basics - 0.060" over, cast pistons, balanced rotating assembly, stock crank and rods w/ARP rod bolts, 140 heads, mild porting, intake-matched, milled to 66 cc's, 1.96" intake/1.66" exhaust, Comp springs, Scorpion full roller rockers, thread-in studs, Lunati Voodoo 701 cam (213/219 @ 0.050"), Edelbrock P4B intake and 1406 600 cfm carb, HEI conversion, Hedman shorty headers and 2.5" Pypes with X-crossover. The Dyno simulator says 312 [email protected],000 and 368 [email protected],250, I think that's optimistic by 5 or 10%. Oh, and Muncie M-20 w/3.08 Eaton posi.

I don't have any quarter-mile times, but it's a lot of fun to drive, not blinding acceleration like your 500-hp cars, but pulls strong from off-idle to 4,500 rpm or so, then starts to taper off some, which makes sense with the cam grind. Honestly I haven't lit the tires yet, I know that's lame, but due to some electrical issues I only have a couple hundred miles on it close to home and am still feeling it out. Now you got me curious, tho....


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

RunninLemans - Thanks for all the info, gives us a good look into your build and the performance. Looks like a great match in all your parts.

I checked out the Lunati cam specs, good street grind -low to mid range HP & torque. Matches your stock rebuild using the cast pistons and cast rods and will by nature keep your RPM's down to a way safe number. So you have a nice driver/engine versus going into aftermarket parts, and looking for maximum HP & torque.

Thanks for your driving impression as well. Sounds like a fun-to-drive car. Let it break in a bit and then see what she will do. The 3.08's are probably not ideal, but will be good on gas. A set of 3.55's would really get the car to accelerate, but you would give up your gas mileage and the engine would RPM higher at todays highway cruising speeds. Taller tires will bring the RPM's down a bit, but not anything to match the 3.08's on the highway. If it were just an"around town" car, then I would go with the 3.55's to gain some stoplight-to-stoplight blasts.:thumbsup:


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Beautiful car, Runnin. I personally like a tall gear like a 3.08. An excellent compromise gear for your car (acceleration and highway cruise) would be a 3.23. 3.55's used to be okay, when the National speed limit was 55mph, but today are useless on the open road unless you have something like 30" tires. If you plan on putting a lot of miles on it, keep the 3.08 gears. JMHO.


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## RunninLeMans (Apr 3, 2014)

Thanks, Jeff, the body, frame and interior are unrestored and don't stand up to some of the beautiful restorations you guys are sporting, but it's a great driver and for the money I have in it, I'm pretty happy with it.

Jim - not many stoplights out here in the woods, but a lot of 50 mph cruising roads, so the 3.08 suits me. I do agree that a 3.23 would be a little better compromise, but they were harder to find. 

Anyway, back to the original post, keep the LeMans convert true to itself, they are cool in their own way!


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

atriot:Runnin', not all of us have beautiful restorations.....here's the original interior of my '65...still presentable but far from new. And while you're cruising at 50mph through the Maine woods, be careful not to hit a moose, a deer, or Stephen King!!


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## ibarbuckle (Feb 24, 2014)

geeteeohguy said:


> atriot:Runnin', not all of us have beautiful restorations.....here's the original interior of my '65...still presentable but far from new. And while you're cruising at 50mph through the Maine woods, be careful not to hit a moose, a deer, or Stephen King!!


I'd take a solid, but worn original interior over 90% of the restorations out there. Especially if it's not black.

How old are those floormats?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The floormats came from AMES in 1983. I've scrubbed them clean(er) since the photo!


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## ibarbuckle (Feb 24, 2014)

It looks good. I'm envious of your Fisher seat belts. The GM ones got no class.


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## RunninLeMans (Apr 3, 2014)

I love the passenger's grab rail, was that standard equipment on the '65 GTO? Nice clean interior, thanks for sharing...


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

RunninLeMans said:


> I love the passenger's grab rail, was that standard equipment on the '65 GTO? Nice clean interior, thanks for sharing...


Yes, the 1965-1967 GTO's had them as well as the Lemans. It adds meaning to the phrase, "Sit down, shut up, and hang on.":smile2:

I think the grab bar is one of the neatest things on the '65-'67 GTO's and speaks all business. I have several from GTO's that were scrapped. I have one installed on my "board of car emblems" in my work shed which I have collected over the years from scrapped cars and junk yarding.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Those Fisher seatbelts came out of a junked '65 Buick Skylark in about 1985. My car originally came with no seatbelts. No outside rearview mirror, either. Just tripower, 4 speed, gages, and posi. A previous owner converted it to power steering, but it still has the manual drum brakes. I put the 'power' stainless trim on the pedals decades ago. Drove it all over the place yesterday, and took a video of the exhaust for another thread, but couldn't download it.


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## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

First off, thanks everyone for your replies, answers to questions, and suggestions here. I haven't received any email notifications that there were responses, so I haven't checked in until today.

Jim, here's where I'm at with this thing, in my mind at least right now, but have to pull the engine next week and start talking to a machine shop today about what I want done.

If it wasn't a numbers 326 unmolested car, sure, I would save the engine and trans and put the 64 389 with matching trans I have in it, and as long as I have to do engine work, do IT instead of the 326. But, it's a numbers car, and like you said, the HO as an optional 326 is extremely intriguing. 

I've also thought about what someone else suggested, and just check compression, do a job on the heads and replace timing chain, oil pump and other expendables and be done with it, 2 barrel and all.

I think the combination of "Flagged" V326 front fender emblems and some reference to "HO" surely adds to the flavor of the rarity of this. I've actually ordered something with the "HO" reference that I can incorporate with the new front fender emblems when I'm finished, and coming up with a neat "326 HO" decal for the stock air cleaner is an "I CAN DO".

I just want to double check with you on what we've discussed and what you have suggested in previous messages of this thread, so I know what to tell the machine shop I want done, because I personally WILL NOT be rebuilding the engine, other than putting everything back, restored, on the short block I get back and machined heads.

1) Magaflux of course
2) Check bore and rebore if necessary
3) If reboring new pistons
4) New forged rods
5) Use my 326 heads - CHANGE valves to 1.92" intake - 1.66 exhaust?
6) 3 angle valve cut
7) NO VALVE SPRINGS OVER 280 lbs. open pressure
8) Stock 389 4 bbl intake - 600 cfm AFB
9) Port-Polish and gasket match intake to heads?
10) Port-Polish and gasket match STOCK 326 EXHAUST to heads?
11) Make exhaust flare at manifold to incorporate 2.5" dual exhaust
12) Comp Cams - xe256h (car has power brakes and I'm converting to disc)
SHOULD I JUST USE THEIR KIT WITH SPRINGS AND LIFTERS?)
13) I'm going to, would like to, use the stock Powerglide with a HD rebuild?

Lastly, my question to you is "holes in air cleaner". ??? What size, how many, in the side of the air cleaner? What if instead I made a small forced air tube cleanly done from the radiator support to the horn on the air cleaner?

Thanks Jim, and everyone. I'm fabbing patch panels today with the brake and shrinker stretcher.

Dave






PontiacJim said:


> OK, on the engine mods. As far as going CLONE - nah, don't do it. Going 100% on a Lemans probably won't bring in any bigger value if you decided to sell at some point. Rest-Mod on the other hand would most likely add value to the car and here is where I am OK with it. A warmed over engine is a plus in value. You are not really adding anything that can't be reversed -even the heads as new seat inserts could be added to bring the heads back to original sized valves, but why? The 2 speed auto would work, but again, I would rebuild it for a little more performance with HD clutch pack (assuming available), perhaps an aftermarket lower first gear ratio (if available -they have these for the powerglide, don't know if the Pontiac trans is the same?), and a better torque converter (you will buy a new converter anyway in a rebuild). TH-350 or TH-400 is probably a better selling point -an added plus. A modern 4-speed OD conversion would be even better, but I don't think the added expense would truly be worth it in this case, so I would not do it unless it was a daily driver. Of course a Muncie 4-speed would be your best option, but this is not inexpensive either and you would most likely have to change rear gears -don't think you could really get your money back with this conversion unless you went GTO clone. Disc brake conversion is a plus & safer stops -an added plus in resale. I would not have a problem with front & rear roll bars either to help handling/cornering -an added plus in resale.
> 
> A lot to consider and think about. I do this all the time with my project, but mine will be a keeper and a "toy" with limited driving -because I won't be able to afford but a few cup fulls of gas at a time!:lol: If there is one thing to think about is....just build it the way you want it to be so YOU will enjoy it and don't worry about the "other" guy who might buy it because he will change it around the way HE wants it -isn't that what we all do?:thumbsup:


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I've said this before, but I'll say it again: I once had a '65 GTO with a 326 in it and a 4 speed and it ran extremely well. 326 engines are durable, torquey, and economical to run. They get no respect, but they should.


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## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

This is my Photoshop rendition of what the fender emblems would look like.


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## RunninLeMans (Apr 3, 2014)

Attaboy, Grumpy. One note on the stock heads - I cc'd both my '67 '140' heads and the original '64 '3345' heads, and although the chambers were about the same (66-68 cc), the intake ports were much different - ~170 cc's for the 3345 heads and ~150 cc's for the 140's. I did read somewhere that on the later 326's they made the intake ports smaller to improve low-end torque. If that's true and you're not building a hi-rev screamer, you might not need much porting, just clean up flash and intake match. 

Good luck, looking forward to any updates!


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## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

Pulled the drive train yesterday. Needs a good pressure wash before I tear down.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Grumpy said:


> 1) Magaflux of course
> 2) Check bore and rebore if necessary
> 3) If reboring new pistons
> 4) New forged rods
> ...


Glad to see you select to use the 326CI for something different. 

Your exhaust valve should be the 1.66", so that is correct.

Don't forget you will need to balance everything.
Strongly recommend a new harmonic balancer to replace your old, original one. This is for your own protection as you don't want the balancer to come apart. The one I got was made by Professional Products and range from $90-$95 and can be found at Summit, Jegs, KRE, and other suppliers. Your machine shop should be able to get the assembly balanced for you.

Yes, on the Comp Cams Kit. I did this with my last 400CI build. You get matched parts, correct springs, and it can save you some dollars as opposed to buying it piece meal.

Now I am no trans expert, but I did some web searching and the 2-speed automatic is not the same as the Chevy powerglide with regards to parts swapping. It is called an ST-300 Super Turbine 300 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seems you can get rebuild parts, but I would have a shop tear it down and give you an estimate and then see if you can indeed get the parts. Looks like there is a master rebuild kit on Ebay for $219.00. Looks like the front pump(if bad) could be hard to find. Seems to be a good trans overall.

Now there seems to be no "shift kits" to improve the trans shifting BUT, did a search and found a 1966 article on improving the Buick (ST-300) transmission. You can download the PDF and have your trans shop, or you, do the mods to improve the shifting.
AHPS - Tech Pages Article

A new torque converter should be no problem.

Just food for thought.:thumbsup:


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Grumpy said:


> This is my Photoshop rendition of what the fender emblems would look like.


VERY COOL! I gotta know where you got the HO emblem??? Is that available or your creation?

Oh yeah, on the holes in the air cleaner, I'd just get one of those hole templates at your local office supply store or even craft store and draw them on the air cleaner base sides to see what they look like with regards to position and size. You could go all around the cleaner base, 1/3 around, or 1/2 around it. Be creative and see what looks visually the best.


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## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

Jim, is is possible to send me a PM with your phone number so we can talk next week? I can't for a couple days, had some major oral surgery late yesterday. I want to reconfirm my notes with you.

The HO emblems were on Ebay, but court is still out on them because they are "brushed" finish. I've got some regular chrome emblems that have "HO" as part of them that I could cut off an use as well. When they come I'm going to mock the emblems up and see how each of them look in combination with the "326" emblems.

So, you still think holes in the factory air cleaner is better than a cold air duct from the horn on the air cleaner to the radiator support. Maybe both?

Sure, the new balancer is not an issue, if you think I should replace the old one. Looks like someone changed the balancer recently, perhaps they did a timing chain. Yellow mark up crayon marks on current balancer.

I always have the blocks magnafluxed and balanced with flywheel. Cam bearings, rod etc etc etc.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Grumpy, great project but........I gotta say, I wouldn't put any money into that Super Turbine 300. For just a stocker I would even put a Turbo 350 automatic in at least. For a fun "hot rod" with your 326 a four speed manual would be ideal.

As for the air cleaner, I agree some simple holes to open it up would be cool but....then you are just feeding the engine hot underhood air. I would consider fabbing an early NASCAR style cowl induction. No hood bump like the Chevy's had but something like this- http://assets.hemmings.com/story_image/282061-1000-0.jpg?rev=2 Much more effective than even the "through the headlight" method with ducting.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

The emblems you show are cool, but to me it is a little busy and the High Output emblem looks too different (newer style). I like just the "V" and flag with the 326 displacement. JMO :wink2:.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

ALKYGTO said:


> The emblems you show are cool, but to me it is a little busy and the High Output emblem looks too different (newer style). I like just the "V" and flag with the 326 displacement. JMO :wink2:.


Here is another possibility I just thought up. How about a stripe just below the body belt line just like the 1966-67 Sprint option. Put the H-O emblem where the word "Sprint" goes which is about where the 1964 GTO emblem would have gone on the lower fender. The V326 would stand out alone at the front and the H-O would also stand out highlighted by the stripe.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

ALKYGTO said:


> Grumpy, great project but........I gotta say, I wouldn't put any money into that Super Turbine 300. For just a stocker I would even put a Turbo 350 automatic in at least. For a fun "hot rod" with your 326 a four speed manual would be ideal.
> 
> I agree with ALKYGTO on this one, but I believe Grumpy is trying to utilize the stock/original aspects of the car. This is why I pointed out the build article on the ST-300. A 4-speed would be the way to go, if budget allowed for it, but it is a big expense to do a change over. The later HD Ford Dearborn 3-speed manual would be another good factory choice as the 3-speed was standard with the automatic & 4-speed being options. It would also be cheaper -3sp vs 4-sp. The manual trans change-over would probably have to include a change in rear gears as my reference book states that the ST-300 came standard with a 2.56 gear or the optional 2.93 performance gear. The 3 & 4 speeds are said to have come with the standard 3.23 and the optional economy 3.08 gears.


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## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

You're a dangerous dude.:wink2:
I'm glad we don't live closer with these ideas, you've got some good ones.

I like that idea but don't forget, we're keeping the Lemans' quarter "gills". (see attached images Lemans & Sprint). Could still work though.

I've got those chrome "H-O" emblems coming and will bring those into Photoshop with the V326 emblems when they come and post it.

OR......I could just fill the holes from the emblems on the nose of the front fenders and use V326 HO down on the fender rear. I'll mock something up with the "HO's" come.
-----------
On another note, I'm going to see if Legendary will do the white seat covers with red piping as long as I'm doing a red to white change.





PontiacJim said:


> Here is another possibility I just thought up. How about a stripe just below the body belt line just like the 1966-67 Sprint option. Put the H-O emblem where the word "Sprint" goes which is about where the 1964 GTO emblem would have gone on the lower fender. The V326 would stand out alone at the front and the H-O would also stand out highlighted by the stripe.


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## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

You're exactly right. Just doing a mild "HO Option" on the rebuild, and changing to white interior is against my grain, as far as how I've restored my other cars.

I'm pretty sure I can find a Turbine 300 old guy around Wisconsin that can tweak the trans when he rebuilds. Hopefully. But I agree, this isn't a very good trans but want to keep it stock block and trans. I'm not looking to do wheel stands, but as long as with the HO mods it shifts okay (and doesn't slam down into gear after rebuild as I've read about) it might be okay.

I know it's not a glide, but man, I know other quarter mile guys that use Glides and they swear by them.




PontiacJim said:


> ALKYGTO said:
> 
> 
> > Grumpy, great project but........I gotta say, I wouldn't put any money into that Super Turbine 300. For just a stocker I would even put a Turbo 350 automatic in at least. For a fun "hot rod" with your 326 a four speed manual would be ideal.
> ...


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## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

Man, I'm liking this idea a LOT. Looks like an old Caddy air cleaner fab'd. I'll have to see if there's room, I think there is, on the firewall to get into the cowl. Looks really cool and this is definitely something I can fab.

===================

As for the air cleaner, I agree some simple holes to open it up would be cool but....then you are just feeding the engine hot underhood air. I would consider fabbing an early NASCAR style cowl induction. No hood bump like the Chevy's had but something like this- http://assets.hemmings.com/story_image/282061-1000-0.jpg?rev=2 Much more effective than even the "through the headlight" method with ducting.[/QUOTE]


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## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

Yep, I agree. Back to the drawing board.





ALKYGTO said:


> The emblems you show are cool, but to me it is a little busy and the High Output emblem looks too different (newer style). I like just the "V" and flag with the 326 displacement. JMO :wink2:.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Ok just for S**** and giggles for you motor guys, what displacement could the 326 be bored/stroked out too? Can you take a 389/400 crank, rods, .060 bore pistons and make a stroked 326?? What power/torque would it make in the simulator? Great thread!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Grumpy said:


> You're a dangerous dude.:wink2:
> I'm glad we don't live closer with these ideas, you've got some good ones.
> 
> I like that idea but don't forget, we're keeping the Lemans' quarter "gills". (see attached images Lemans & Sprint). Could still work though.
> ...


OK, simple enough. The "Sprint" stripe (which you can paint on) goes into the louvers and the H-O emblem still goes on the front lower fender within the stripe. I still like the V326 emblem on the front of the fender.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Instg8ter said:


> Ok just for S**** and giggles for you motor guys, what displacement could the 326 be bored/stroked out too? Can you take a 389/400 crank, rods, .060 bore pistons and make a stroked 326?? What power/torque would it make in the simulator? Great thread!


The 326CI uses the same 3.75" stroke crank like the 350, 389 & 400's. The bore is 3.71875" (1963 326 is said to have a bore of 3.78"). So a .030" overbore produces 330CI. Using the stock length rods, you get a rod stroke ratio of 1.76. 

So like any build, I suppose you could go with a 400 stroker kit (4.25" stroke) and custom Ross pistons .030" over which would give you 375 CI. The rod ratio with the Chevy 6.8 rods would be 1.60 while a stock rod length of 6.625 gives you 1.55. This rod ratio also turns out to be the same as the 461 stroker kit for the 400CI. So here the extra cost really would not be justified when you could simply buy a 389/400CI and go from there.

So why is rod ratio important and what effect on the engine does it typically have? Found a great thread which will help in explaining this.
stroke to rod ratio - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board


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## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

Had some surgery Friday and am having a hard time talking. My wife thinks that's great because I can't bitch at her about something or another.So I locked myself in the shop and restored the console over the weekend.

The best part for me on the car restoration are the parts. I just have a passion for it and love doing it more than anything in the world. I get excited just taking the old nasty parts off the car, all the while thinking "Man, I can't wait to do this part".

I finished the '64 Lemans console restoration yesterday, and came up with a pretty good "Driver Quality" for her, since I didn't go through the major expense of replating the console top and lid. Took quite a bit of time in my book, although Earl always says "I can't believe how fast you restore parts."

Some of the early glove compartments and consoles were "flocked" with fibers that were applied over a light glue base. I restored the "flocking" inside the console compartment and lid as well. Had a lot of grinding to do on the console top and lid. Not perfect, bit it will work. The only part I did have to buy for $6 was the shift indicator.


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## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

More pix of console.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Like day and night. Impressive.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Nice job!! I would rather see the trim in re-conditioned original than strip and re-chrome or aftermarket new. These are 50 year old cars, nothing wrong with showing a little use and bringing an original part back to life. 

When i got mine the Deluxe seat belts were crusted and stiff the mechanisms and rollers rusted firm. thought they were beyond saving so i settled for a used set of the standard GM's. soaked everything in marvel miracle oil for a month scrubbing and working them every few days. was even able to save the belts although they need another black die job.


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## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

While Earl was pressure washing yesterday, he uncovered some factory codes that look like they were applied to the firewall on the primer before color and body tag was put on. Interesting. I love finding stuff like this.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The neat thing about Instg8ters '65 seat install is that he installed the covers with the pattern facing the correct way, inward towards the front. It seems that about 50-75% of the 'restored' and even 'all original' '65's on the internet have the seat covers installed backwards, with the diagonal lines pointing outward. Expensive mistake to make!


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## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

Well, it's been almost 6 months since I started this thread and the car is just about complete. Thanks to all for information and ideas you've provided. Special thanks to Jim.

Here's a Face Book link if you want to scroll down once there to see the restoration from start to finish.

Thanks again,
Dave

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Grumpys-Garage-MuscleCars/200941343261937?ref=hl


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## silversport (Mar 23, 2007)

really nice and glad you kept it a Lemans...thanks for sharing the pics

Bill


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## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

*Almost Completed*


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## Grumpy (Sep 29, 2009)

*Installing Carpeting and Upholstery*


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

:thumbsup:Absolutely stunning. Very, very, well done. Now to wipe the drool off of my keyboard.......
What a classy car. You done good!!


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## Zoomin (Mar 26, 2005)

geeteeohguy said:


> :thumbsup:Absolutely stunning. Very, very, well done. Now to wipe the drool off of my keyboard.......
> What a classy car. You done good!!


I agree! Absolutely stunning with the white interior.

I just picked up a 64 Lemans that still has its original 212 I6 and ST300. I'm not wrestling with the tribute question at all, but the engine and tranny are headed for Craigslist. I'd be happy as a clam to do the 326 HO.

Is your car running? Did you change the rear end ratio? What do you think of the performance?


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Very nice!
The car is just stunning, great job on the restore.


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## RunninLeMans (Apr 3, 2014)

I agree Zoomin, the white seats and door panels really set off the red. This car is stunning...


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