# Preadator programer, how much power are they worth?



## wakarr (Oct 12, 2004)

I am shooting for 400 hp (flywheel) with the following mods: SLP 1.85 rockers, underdrive pulley, MAF pipe w/K&N filter and shorty headers. Howerver I am seeing considerable comment that the shorties are showing little or no gain over the stock manifolds and that the Predator tuners are supposedly producing 15-20 hp. Sounds like the Predator offers more HP per $. Have any of you had firsthand experience with the Predator (or any of the other programmers) on a lightly modified 04?

Thanks,

Warren

P.S. I have a 6 speed manual trans.


----------



## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

Diablo used to not be so good, well to be nice they sorta sucked , but with this unit I think they may have redeemed themselves. Superchips is another Vendor that comes to mind that used to make some crappy chips out of Florida and have turned it around. They now make a very decent OBDII programmer like Hypertech that works really well.


That being said (or typed),

If it was my money (and it isn't :cheers ) I would do as many mods as possible before adding a tuning/ programmer part such as this Diablo one to get the maximum gains from it.


----------



## wakarr (Oct 12, 2004)

Thanks for your input, I think i'll wait for now on a tuner.

Warren


----------



## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

No problem, I'm in the same boat and want headers but live in Calif. I had this same issue with my FireHawk and Z28 and ended up going with mid length headers or "mids". They could pass a visual and the tail pipe sniffer. Now I see that there is already one company making a "mid" size type header, in fact I think it is SLP I will have to recheck. Waiting is always good.

Bottom line is any header is gonna flow more than stock even say JBA shorties but if you are going to spend 500 bucks or more on headers plus all the labor involved you might as well go all out and do it right once and get the most gains. Long Tubes will show the most gains if you can address the smog check issue. I am leaning towards mids and waitng to see more options then tuning.


----------



## Monte (Oct 13, 2004)

I have a predator & I think it was a great investment.
You cant judge this tuner on hp #'s
The major improvement in acceleration & perforrmance are caused by
the removal of the torque managent & the changes in the shifting of
the automatic Tranny. Im not sure if there is torque management on m6 cars.
The engine timing is also updated to run on premium fuel only & this will
yield improvements on m6 cars as well.
The predator lets you use more of the available hp & sends more to the rear wheels. I also had a custom tune from rwtd.com. If you buy it from them you 
get lifetime custom tunes for $100. If you do any mods they can adjust your tune. For example I just added the k&N aircharger kit & they adjusted my tune
and the car runs great. The car was running lean after the install & they 
adjusted my tune.
You can also go back to the stock tune any time. Which is great for going
back to the dealer & for the yearly inspection.
I hope I was of some help to you .


----------



## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

Thanks that link doesn't work for me though rwtd.com.

I bet with my descreened MAF, SLP CAI and SLP exhaust I could show a decent gain with this Tuner if anything I would be in the sweet spot of my A/F and timing and I do have an A4.

I guess I need to move this Mod up towards the top of my want/need GTO list.

Edit add, I love this forum though, I didn't even know we had torque management on this car that explains allot. Does TQ Managent get disabled when you turn off TC?

On my Nissan I had to hardwire a switch from the brake light fuse to turn it off prior to getting my ECU reflashed and it was a real PITA at the track to race with no brake lights and remember to turn that switch on/off all the time!


----------



## Monte (Oct 13, 2004)

We cant turn off the torque managerment.
Does removing the screen on the mass air censor make a noticable difference?


----------



## wakarr (Oct 12, 2004)

Removing the MAF screen can often cause a lean condition resulting in pinging. Better to buy ($40.00 to $80.00) replacement MAF ends that replace the stock pieces, that way you can always return the MAF to original condition if necessary.


----------



## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

"Removing the MAF screen can often cause a lean condition resulting in pinging. "

So can allot of things even over heating can cause pinging from a blocked radiator or a tank of bad gas. However in my case it didn't , it added power. This is one of those never ending debates I don't need to be in because I drive this car daily and it runs excellent so I don't need more proof. Every car is different though, some gain a tenth with a $400.00 MAF others lose a tenth. On my car descreening the MAF and adding a CAI made a MAJOR difference. I'm not running FI where adding .3 in my A/F is gonna blow my engine like with my Z. BTW, what would be normal A/F for our cars stock? Around 14.*? I should follow that aspect to prepare for tuning.

Ported MAF ends are a waste of money for LS1's in my opnion unless you can get them used for under 50 bucks, been there done that. My car runs very strong even on 89 octane, never has pinged once, ever. I was broke and ran a whole tank of 89 and never pinged without the screen. Before you mention it I also don't have any KR or detonation. I wonder if this car would fail safe to limp mode?

As for leaning out most cars come pig rich from the factory anyways but that is why I am looking into tuning. Most power is made with these "tuners" via timing and A/F adjustments the TQ Kill sounds like an added bonus plus I'm interseted in the shift firmness too. 



Now, why is it being said you can't remove torque management when others say you can?

I did it in my Nissan every day with the flip of the switch, others claim this Predator does it. 

Does it or doesn't it? I haven't researched this Diablo peice yet but that would be a nice addition.


----------



## GlennH (Sep 22, 2004)

The Predator comes with a factory performance tune that somewhat lowers the torque management but doesn't eliminate it. James at RWTD will write you a custom tune that will totally eliminate the torque management, change the speed limiter, and make any other modifications to compensate for any mods you may have done. If you purchase the Predator from him for $419, he will modify your tune for as long as you own the car. If you buy the Predator from someone else, he will give you unlimited custom tunes for $100. You can find him at diablosporttuning.com. I am very happy with my custom tune. He did an amazing job on my shifts (much better than the Predator came with), fixed my LT's which were screwed up due to my K&N CAI, raised my speed limiter to 250 MPH (as if!!!) and, overall, knocked two tenths off my quarter mile to 13.68 last Sunday. By next spring, I plan to have Nitto drag radials for sure (I just spin like a SOB) and, maybe, NOS...I'm still thinking about that (I leased my car so I want something that's easy to remove in three years when I turn it in).


----------



## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

Thanks,

Sounds like a place I need to visit. One more important thing I want to do before buying the custom tune is by the new Intake Manifold from EPP. I think it is about 600 unpolished so we are talking a grand between the two mods. I think it should run pretty well after all that. Then maybe a torque converter  You can install your N20 so it is easily removable, the hard part would be how hard your track tech's you in I guess. My track isn't that strict. Most here run even without a blow down tube and the main 15 foot line is inside the car not outside which wouldn't pass NHRA. Thanks for clarfying the link etc apreciate it!

By the way , great ET, the 555R's would cut off at least 3 tenths in the winter.


----------



## flht3 (Nov 16, 2004)

hey guys i have a 6 sp and am looking for some easy mods , do you think the predator from rwtd would be worth it ,i cant imagine the a/f ratio could be that fat from the factory,i would think its pretty spot on for mpg.i have ordered a loud mouth to get that bad ass sound comming from such a low key car..... like this car more each day.


----------



## GTO TOO (Sep 10, 2004)

I must throw out a few facts. Oh never mind !!!


----------



## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

Hi,

There is always someone , on every board I am on who is very intelligent and goes on and on about why we should keep our cars stock. This person speaks, "in theory" type language.

In theory at some point the MAF would max out too. This would result in limp mode. However in real life it doesn't max out and it goes into open loop mode.

Some poeple like to mod their cars and some people like to keep it stock. I have always modded my car and along the way shown greater and greater gains with each Mod I do until soon I am in the 12's and posting time slips and then people start beleiving me and then the in theory stuff starts to go out the window.

As for burning out my cats I would really hate foir that to have to happen because I would hate to have to replace them with some after market high flow cats   

"Stock engines without modifications are very close to Max. power as delivered."

I have to diasagree 100 % with that statement but thanks for the A/F/Timing education! 

Manafactures could use larger throttle bodies and build the car to weigh about 500 pounds less and make about 50 horse power more N/A and the car would be about 1 second faster in the 1/4 but they don't, that is why the aftermarket exsists.

I do agree though, if this is the last car you ever want to buy and plan on it being "old reliable" for the next 15 years then DO NOT modify it. Meantime I will see you at the track in the 12's!


----------



## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

*Someseriuos questions for GTO TOO*

Hi,

Do you know the exact A/F for our car stock because I do plan on getting this programmer. You mentioned around 14.6? I plan on staying N/A , my last car had a ATI Procharger on it at 10 pounds when I sold it so I have had my fun in my journey toward the elusive 11's, I will be happy with 12's with the Goat.

2. What is our stock timing BTDC?

3. Do you think our ECU's have the ability to learn? Yes or No

4. If yes it would only be in open loop right? No learning in closed loop because it is hard coded? I am trying to get a grasp for this car because I got away from LS1's for 2 years before fully learning their A/F/Timing and went and learned all about it on a 10.5:1 6 cylinder that needed to stay below 12.4 A/F blown or BOOM and the timing had to be retarded aprox 8 degrees BTDC or BOOM! So I know all about the perils of which you speak. When the Procharger first came out I was the very first person to blow my engine due to timing (too lean and too much timing) so hold that claim to fame. It cost me 6500.00 for the engine and after labor about 9k.

So here is my main thoughts/question. Does our ECU's learn anything?

If your answer is NO then I need to know this.

I have a friend who has a WS6 T/A that is very famous. It did like 325 rwhp stock and it won the 1/4 stock class in Bakersfield in 2002 with nothing but tires for MOD'S. So we all watched this car from day 1 (I am a former active member of TACA BTW.) What we saw was that after about 3 thousand miles it started getting better gas mileage and after about 5 thousand miles it gained over 10 horses on a Dyno Jet nothing else being changed, this car stayed stock for 2 years then went N20.

It is not the first I have heard of late model GM cars gaining horse power while getting better gas mileage with nothing changed but time. Why would you think this would happen? I would like to think the ECU's learn.

If they do then I would like to think that my new ECU with only 1700 miles on it would eventually relearn some things with my new descreened MAF and SLP CAI and the upcoming Lingfetter (sp?) intake.

If not that is what this tuner will be for to make it learn hehe.

Let's take the Procharger for the GTO for example. A big argument that forst started was that if you doubled the amount oif air coming into the MAF with a SCer then you would "max out the MAF", "in theory" of course. This guy we called Internet Einstein with a stock Z told us everyday that are Procharged Z's were maxing out our MAF but we just kept right on going all the way to the 11's (several cars.)

So I guess my final question is, reguarding this MAF issue and your stoich values preset from the factory etc etc how do you account for the SCer doubling the amount of air coming into our cars and not burning up our cats like you so accurately described? Is it because they are being tuned?

If that is the case then why wouldn't this Predator do thesame thing for us with N/A cars with tuning?

Thanks!


----------



## GTO TOO (Sep 10, 2004)

Max,
I wasn't suggesting you NOT MOD. I only tried to suggest you might wish to UNDERSTAND how the system works BEFORE making changes, and learning the unintended consequenses of your actions. The questions you've asked concerning learning and closed loop are revealing. Good luck. One last thing you might wish to ask is not what is learned and WHEN, But what is in memory !!!


----------



## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

Wll in closed loop mode it is all hard coded so that would not be in memory right? I don't want to argue heck not even debate, I just want to learn. From what I have learned so far most changes made are in open loop and open loop begains at preset RPM's but mainly WOT correct? So I ask myself, (concerning all this damage to my cars engine etc) how long does my car live at WOT? Minutes out of the month? See what I am saying? I dont think any of the current changes I have made are anything that would damage my car and that is the point I would like to end with. I also don't think my future plans of the intake and then the tuning will do any damage either if done right which is why I asked you all the timing and A/F questions that you failed to answer.

Anyways, 

"I wasn't suggesting you NOT MOD. I only tried to suggest you might wish to UNDERSTAND how the system works BEFORE making changes, and learning the unintended consequenses of your actions. "

OK now I am really really curiuos and feel free to start a treatise on this in your own thread if you like I'm sure we all will read it but here goes.

If it were you (since you are not telling us not to mod) where would you mod this car? I'm not talking about the suspension and tires etc that is a gimme this car is all over the place when driven hard with lots of power and I am addressing that slowly. I am talking engine and intake,exhaust performance mods. Please don't say, "buy an 05" because that is not an option for me. Thanks and I really look forward to your answer!

Max


----------



## flht3 (Nov 16, 2004)

a new car allways gain hp and mpg as it wears in. i have no computer on my hot rod and it gained 18 hp with no changes in 15,000 miles. as for timing you allway have to retard timing with forced induction and must run it fat. retarding timing on a normaly aspirated car at wot will give you hp as well. note; if your spending 5000.00 on a supercharger for a 30,000.00 car you might want to dyno tune it, that way you can see you a/f ratio, because these things will get scary lean around 5000 rpms :cheers


----------



## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

Thanks. I had a Procharger on my car before this and the constanct checking of guages, belts and the engine and changing compressor and engine oil and plugs etc got old fast. I plan on keeping this car N/A. I don't think that plan will ever change either, I have already did N20 and FI and ran the fast times at the track. What I am looking for is more *consistant* N/A HP from this car and I think it is there, I just need to find it. I personaly think this Tuner will bring some out, but if anything it should help me with my A/F and timing and all the other shift perks etc.


----------



## flht3 (Nov 16, 2004)

MaxHax said:


> Thanks. I had a Procharger on my car before this and the constanct checking of guages, belts and the engine and changing compressor and engine oil and plugs etc got old fast. I plan on keeping this car N/A. I don't think that plan will ever change either, I have already did N20 and FI and ran the fast times at the track. What I am looking for is more *consistant* N/A HP from this car and I think it is there, I just need to find it. I personaly think this Tuner will bring some out, but if anything it should help me with my A/F and timing and all the other shift perks etc.


 :cheers i was looking to get a procharger, you said you had to change compressor oil? i have never had that style s/c, how often do you change the compreesor oil?? thanks johnundefined


----------



## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

You get 4 bottles of oil if you buy the kit. On the 350Z the drain plug is on the bottom of the compressor which is crammed into the small engine bay which makes it a bear to get into. You had to take off the whole CAI tube etc.

ATI recommends the first change at 500 miles and each additional comressor oil change at every other oil change for daily driving.

I think for racing the reccomendation was every oil change, and spark plugs every 15k miles.

I have to give it to ATI as far as power goes though, no one can touch them and their compressors are the best on the market. 

It doesn't end there though it's the larger injectors and larger fuel pump, and all the maintanence I mentioned that makes it a PITA as a daily driver which is why I will be staying N/A. If you want a quick 450rwhp though, strap on a Procharger it will do it with an 8 hour install! No doubts..


----------



## flht3 (Nov 16, 2004)

thanks for the info,its amazing how fast you forget its only been 5 years sence my last s/c and now you mentioned it, i remember all the crap you talking about.i think i just changed my mind,what do plan on doing cat back, ecu tunning,intake??


----------



## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

Yeah when you start modding and get caught up in it you can forget real quick...

I already did the SLP Catback and love it, and I did the SLP CAI and took the screen out of my MAF which sent some here into flatline  

I have the tuner on it's way too. The Predator to bring it all together.

Then I will do the Intake Plenum for about 15rwhp I hope.

Then it will be sway bars and Sub Frame Connectors welded. They are only $259.00 at EPP with free shipping and weld in 5 places. That should hold it to the ground with my BMR STB.

From there I haven't decided, we shall see, it won't be FI though.

:agree


----------



## flht3 (Nov 16, 2004)

yea.. i herd the screen will make it leaner, i can understand the CONCERN ,but i think its way fat stock, did you get any a/f ratios, and have you found a place for the intake duct?


----------



## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

I think it is fat stock too that was my point I think that is where most tuners gain the rwhp, A/F and timing.

My duct is fine I did it myself and it is a perfect fit.

Nah I haven't done any A/F yet I only know or think I know that 14.6 
is stock so I would think 14. anything is safe even 14.0

(N/A APPLICATIONS)

But that is only my opinion, a little on the lean side only gives you more HP.
I don't think my engine will be blowing up any time soon


----------



## twolf (Nov 24, 2004)

I got my Predator programmer over the weekend. All I can say is... Woohoo!
It definately woke up the LS1 a good bit. Just seems "happier" in the mid RPM range. But having CAGS disabled made a HUGE difference too. I like the car so much better now that I can roll to second any time. 

+++ WORTH IT! +++


----------



## wakarr (Oct 12, 2004)

Did you use a custom tune or a tune included in the basic Predator package?


----------



## MaxHax (Oct 16, 2004)

I have to continue to sing the praises of this product. After my "Performance Tune" standard, non custom and self flashed, my car just came alive! It was if I restalled my torque converter! I have an A4 and I have made some shift firmness, point and RPM, and speed adjustments etc but everything else is what the stock program did and I am very very happy with it. Now if we could just get the price of premium fuel down! :confused 
(2.31 a gallon and climbing daily here!)


----------



## Beefgee (Dec 22, 2008)

Which programmer is recommended as the best one?


----------



## Beefgee (Dec 22, 2008)

What is CAGS? I'm new at this.


----------



## Beefgee (Dec 22, 2008)

So the Predator is the way to go?


----------



## kolleonidas (Jan 11, 2009)

CAGS is for M6 only. It's the auto-shift from 1st to 4th at a specific rpm range. Not to sound like an old man...but I drive my 05 as an everyday car and have found benefits from starting off in 2nd gear instead of 1st for normal driving.

I'm also thinking about a program tuner. Any other good forums out there about this subject?


----------



## 2006GTOLS2 (Sep 23, 2005)

kolleonidas said:


> Not to sound like an old man...but I drive my 05 as an everyday car and have found benefits from starting off in 2nd gear instead of 1st for normal driving.


What is the benefit? It surely isn't your clutch.


----------



## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

Beefgee said:


> So the Predator is the way to go?


it would depend on what you're going to eventually do with the car. if you're going to stay mostly stock with a few light mods and go no further they're a good programmer. if you get the bug, which many if not most of us do, and you keep modding you're better off getting a tuning suite (HP Tuners or EFIlive) and a wideband O2 controller and do it right. 
unlike what someone wrote a couple of years ago in this thread our cars use the front narrowband O2 sensors to keep the car at around 14.7/1 AFR during normal driving regardless of if you've tuned it with the Predator or if it's stock. the AFR the Predator adjusts is the open loop AFR which it goes to in wide open throttle and then with a LS2 you want it around 12.6 (12.9 with the LS1). 
it really just makes its best guess at it but usually it also runs a little on the rich side to be safe just less that the stock tune. that's the reason for the wideband O2 controller. with that you can adjust it much more precisely. handhelds like the Pedator and others as well as tuning suites adjust the timing and a few other things. the tuning suites also give you the ability to adjust countless other parameters, as many or as few as you want plus give you great logging ability to see what the car is doing and how your tune affects it.


HPTuners.com >> Performance At Your Fingertips & HP Tuners Bulletin Board - Powered by vBulletin
EFILive Web Site & EFILive Forum - Powered by vBulletin
DiabloSport :: Gas and Diesel Tuning Systems


----------

