# MY EXHAUST SUCKS! NEED IDEAS... RAM AIR MANIFOLDS?



## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Okay... 1967, 400, 670 heads, Dougs Headers, 2.5 duals, Flowmaster 40's, no crossover. 

My exhaust is embarrassing. It's a beautiful car so so it draws a ton of attention... and then I have ZERO oomph to back it up. Im on my 3rd set of mufflers, 3rd crossover, and now my last ditch effort was to swap the cam, which I did, and I got no where.

I don't want turn downs because I like the look of tail pipes exiting the rear, and I think that exhaust gas ahead of the axle isn't the best idea for me or the car.

I'm perplexed... My 70 vette with a 275 hp 350 and Turbo mufflers sounds like the hammers of Hell. My 67 GTO sounds like a 280z. Now to add insult to injury, it looks like I may have a stripped manifold bolt and it's leaking enough to blow out the gasket. If I have to remove the header to fix it, I would not put them back on. 

Are the Ram Air manifolds available yet and can they be put on with the engine in?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Yes, RA manifolds are available and they can be installed with the engine in the car. It'll be harder to get the headers out than it will be to put them in.

When you say it has no "oomph" --- are you talking about how it sounds or that it doesn't have the power/performance it should?

BUT - I highly doubt that your exhaust is the source of the problem, if I understand you correctly that it's lacking power? Have you tried driving it "uncorked" (headers open) to see if that makes a difference? That's a whole lot easier than rebuilding your whole exhaust system, especially when you're not sure it's the cause of the problem.

Bear


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Mostly referring to "sound", but I do firmly believe that power is still down.

The original can was a 4/7 swap and I spent weeks going back and forth with Butler about a replacement, which would be a dramatic improvement. Their selection "helped", by eliminating the 4/7 swap and increasing duration, but the LSA moved the power band up, which isn't the best for an auto without a stall.

My old 67 used to sound extremely aggressive and the car whipped you back in your seat... This car spins the posi without power-braking, chirps 2nd, and even chirps 3rd... but it just feels soft... and I really have to work it to get it to do that. Most times I mash the throttle and it just sighs and dumps gas... if the kickdown doesnt occur, it's very uneventful. Off the line in dual gate, it goes like a rocket, but I can't see me ever putting up a fight against any modern muscle car.

If this makes sense, it's fast, but it's not "it looks like the passenger just soiled himself" fast. 

No Ive never un corked it but Ive been considering trying that.

Im dreading the thought of trying to tap the head with the header on... of course, it's the 4th bolt back on the driver side, so the brake lines and steering are in the way.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

If I do go with Ram Air manifolds, are there aluminum ones? What's the best brand/ style?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

armyadarkness said:


> If I do go with Ram Air manifolds, are there aluminum ones? What's the best brand/ style?


There are differences and quality matters. I have no direct personal experience with any of them, but I hear that the ones from Ram Air Restorations are the best quality. BUT, converting to manifolds isn't going to make it sound louder or more aggressive. If anything, doing that will tone it down even more. 



> Most times I mash the throttle and it just sighs and dumps gas


THAT sounds more like a tuning problem than anything else. By any chance, have you run a leakdown test on the engine to see how well the cylinders are sealing?

If I were to come into this problem "cold", here's the approach I'd take, in order:

Run a leakdown test. This will tell me how well the cylinders and valves are sealing. Anything more than 6%-10% is cause for concern. The lower the better.
(Maybe) run a compression test - just to get a ballpark idea of how much cylinder pressure it's making, because I'm curious. It won't really tell me anything important that I didn't already know from the leakdown test though.
Make SURE it doesn't have any vacuum leaks. Intake, brake booster, all hoses and fittings, carb base plate, throttle shafts, etc.
Spark plugs. Clean? Gapped correctly? Ignition wires in good shape (observe it running in the dark and look for arcing/sparking where there shouldn't be any). Cap and rotor in good shape?
Ignition timing and advance curve. With 670 heads I'd start with 37 degrees total mechanical all in by 2500 rpm (initial + distributor but no vacuum can) and play with it from there, and probably find that it wants more. With those heads, it'd be on a steady diet of -at least- 93 octane 100% of the time. 
Carburetor. If I get even a hint of a bog when I stomp on the pedal from about 6 inches away, work it until I don't. Use a reliable air/fuel meter to check mixtures "every where else". I want at least low to mid 14's at idle, mid 13's to low 14's at part throttle cruise (all speeds), and 12-12.5 at WOT. 
I might have to revisit-redo steps 5 and 6 multiple times until they're both optimized, because changing one can affect the other. 

Bear


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

You wont be happy till you have zoomies.


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## JesseLyon (Sep 13, 2020)

Dosent make sense, I have almost the same setup on my '65, Flowmaster Delta 50's (which I changed out from the 40's as they were too loud), Hooker headers, 2.5" duals, no crossover, and it sets off car alarms in my parkade. Maybe your definition of aggressive is different then mine?


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> If I do go with Ram Air manifolds, are there aluminum ones? What's the best brand/ style?


I haven't seen aluminum ones but I got mine from Butler on a black Friday sale and they came in a Pypes box, I love them and went on the motor while on the stand and the motor just fell in the engine compartment. I did blast them and sent for color samples of high temp paint from KBS and painted them like a tungsten color because they came with only 500 degree paint.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

JesseLyon said:


> Dosent make sense, I have almost the same setup on my '65, Flowmaster Delta 50's (which I changed out from the 40's as they were too loud), Hooker headers, 2.5" duals, no crossover, and it sets off car alarms in my parkade. Maybe your definition of aggressive is different then mine?


Like I said, my mild vette is much louder/ more aggressive.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> Mostly referring to "sound", but I do firmly believe that power is still down.
> 
> The original can was a 4/7 swap and I spent weeks going back and forth with Butler about a replacement, which would be a dramatic improvement. Their selection "helped", by eliminating the 4/7 swap and increasing duration, but the LSA moved the power band up, which isn't the best for an auto without a stall.
> 
> ...


Have you looked at Pypes mufflers I have the Race pros with a cross pipe and it sounds good I think and you can still hear your passenger with no droning but I haven't had anyone do a drive by to see how they sound as a bystander but my wife heard me a mile away open it up with our windows open so that made feel good, you might like the Violator muffler, lots of sound videos out there but it's still hard to choose.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Unless tail pipes quiet it down that much, but they didn't on my first 67, back in the 90's


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> Have you looked at Pypes mufflers I have the Race pros with a cross pipe and it sounds good I think and you can still hear your passenger with no droning but I haven't had anyone do a drive by to see how they sound as a bystander but my wife heard me a mile away open it up with our windows open so that made feel good, you might like the Violator muffler, lots of sound videos out there but it's still hard to choose.


Yes, they were way too quiet. Thats what was on there originally.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

BearGFR said:


> There are differences and quality matters. I have no direct personal experience with any of them, but I hear that the ones from Ram Air Restorations are the best quality. BUT, converting to manifolds isn't going to make it sound louder or more aggressive. If anything, doing that will tone it down even more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Never did a leak down test. It seems healthy and only has 4000 miles on it... plus I didn't want to know! But I guess I should.
Wires are MSD 8.5 an less than a year old, however I had them in metal separators and I just noticed that they were arcing like crazy during my cam install last week. So, I took them out of the metal sleeves and ordered new wires, but I dont have them yet. 
Plugs are new. Were gapped at 45 for my ignition, but when I saw the plug wires arcing, I swapped in new ones at 35 again.
Dizzy is a pro billet which Ive painstakingly spent a year curving. LARS vac corrector, etc.
Carb is a new Edelbrock AVS2 800, which Ive also spent a year meticulously jetting, using a vaccuum gauge and AEM AFR gauge.
More than anything, when you mash the gas at cruise, it rarely kicks down the TH400, so it just labors uneventfully... untill it catches up. Shifting manually is fine. Also, as I mentioned, off the line performance is spinning the posi for 10-20 feet and then chirping 2nd and 3rd... I just feel like it should all be a little more violent/ aggressive/ in your face.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

> More than anything, when you mash the gas at cruise, it rarely kicks down the TH400, so it just labors uneventfully... untill it catches up.


That's a big clue. 

Suspect a couple possibilities: trans vacuum modulator problem and/or trans kickdown solenoid problem. 

The way it's supposed to work, is when you hit the throttle, the switch should "pull" a valve in the transmission to energize the kickdown valving. The modulator is there to "read" engine vacuum and from that, infer the amount of load on the engine, and delay upshifts accordingly. Under light load conditions when there's a lot of vacuum, the modulator is what allows the "early" upshifts to happen. Without it working at all, the transmission would always shift like it was running at WOT, the upshift points being controlled by the mechanical governor that's gear driven off the output shaft. 
The modulator is nothing more than a vacuum actuated diaphragm that moves a valve in the valve body. The most common way it can fail is for the diaphragm to rupture or there to be a leak in the line going to it. That usually will cause it to act like it's at WOT all the time AND also be the source of a maddening vacuum leak that really messes with fuel mixtures, that you may not hear because it's down under the car. If it's really bad, it will allow the engine to suck transmission fluid up the line and into the intake, giving you symptoms of bad rings and blue smoke out the exhaust. But, that's not the only way it can fail. Personally I've not heard of this happening, but in theory it might also be possible for the modulator plunger to get jammed in the housing - maybe causing the opposite effect - the transmission might always shift "early" - even under heavy throttle.



> Shifting manually is fine. Also, as I mentioned, off the line performance is spinning the posi for 10-20 feet and then chirping 2nd and 3rd... I just feel like it should all be a little more violent/ aggressive/ in your face.


Shifting manually causes the fluid path through the valve body to be different in 1st and 2nd. That takes the modulator and the kickdown solenoid mostly out of the picture in 1st, somewhat in 2nd, until you get up into 3rd/Drive. If you leave the trans in *Drive* and hammer it from a stop, how does it shift? Does it "wind out" each gear or does it seem to shift way early? If it holds each gear for a "long time" like it should, but shifts early when driving sedately, then the modulator is probably OK - I'd still check for line leaks though.

First order of business: get your kickdown working. Check the switch and wiring connections - which you should find on the driver's side of the transmission just above the pan, about midway. Make sure the fuse isn't blown, make sure the switch on the go-fast pedal is there, working, and adjusted. Check out the modulator on the passenger side of the trans and the vacuum line going to it - make sure you don't have any leaks there. I haven't personally tried what I'm about to suggest, just because I haven't needed to - but something you might try: Unplug the solenoid connector at the transmission, take some jumper leads and apply 12 volts to the solenoid connector on the side, and listen - see if you can hear anything clicking/moving inside the transmission. If you can hear "something happening" inside when you apply the voltage, then _probably_ the solenoid and circuit itself is working. Like I said, I haven't tried this myself on my car, which I know is working, so I'm not sure if you _should _be able to hear anything or not, but it's worth a try. 

Good luck!

Bear


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Yes, hammer down in drive will wind out and shift hard... roll on WOT is where it seems to fart out.

I did check the solenoid and replaced the KD switch, but it's still very inconsistent at best. The modulator had a bad diaphram, so I replaced it, and I cutom bent a steel line, so there's not much rubber there... I do have a quality onboard vac gauge and I'm in the 18 range, power brakes work like a dream, with the new cam, so I'll assume vac is good.

The car only has 336's and I'd love to swap em out for 355's, but Im already taching 3000 at 70, and I prefer to cruise at closer to 80. No stall eaither, but Im about to put a TKX in the car, so that should solve all of this and give me control of the power band. 

I do use 93 or better, at all times.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I wouldn't waste time on the TH400 and get that TKX in there  and if you get the wide ratio it has a 3:27 first gear so you won't have to change the rear, it will get out the hole like a bullet out of a barrel ...again jealous of all you aluminum head and five speed guys


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Yes it is the one with the 3.27 1st!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> Yes it is the one with the 3.27 1st!


Mine has a 2:98 first with a 3:42 cog...giddy up 🤠


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

I know you don't want turndowns, but that is what I have on my car and it is LOUD (to the point I created a post a while back asking about side exhaust in front of the wheels).

Mild 400, Hedman long tube headers, standard H crossover, 2 chamber flowmasters, turndowns right in front of axle. LOUD as F. What I'm missing is the nasty lope you probably just got from your cam swap.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> Mostly referring to "sound", but I do firmly believe that power is still down.
> 
> The original can was a 4/7 swap and I spent weeks going back and forth with Butler about a replacement, which would be a dramatic improvement. Their selection "helped", by eliminating the 4/7 swap and increasing duration, but the LSA moved the power band up, which isn't the best for an auto without a stall.
> 
> ...


You did the cam swap? You don't like it? 

You can get a 2,500 stall converter for cheap. You could have the larger full size converter in that trans which will make it soggy/slow. Unless you know the trans is the born with TH-400 and it still has its original converter, you might want to just swap for a better converter until you can do the TKO or 4-speed swap.






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Put one in my brother's car - worked great. Just fill out the form. $325.00 for the TH-400. Of course TCI and B & M are good converters as well. I have said this before, my boat of a '73 Fury & 360CI 2 Bbl, 180 HP/2.71 rear gear has a factory "loose" 2,500 stall converter. You would be impressed when I mashed the gas. Puts the engine up into its lower power range and out of the gate I go. If I ran an automatic, I would have to have a 2,400-2,500 stall converter just for the smiles.

But, you may have more power than you realize as a broader torque curve can be deceiving because the power comes on very smooth rather than explosive and track results do prove this.


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## gtojoe68 (Jan 4, 2019)

I have the Ram Air Resto Cast iron headers/HO Manifolds for D port heads. Your car won't get any louder, thats for sure But if you use the Remflex gaskets, you will NEVER have a leaky manifold again. I installed prior to my rebuild so I know I did it with motor in car, Need to remove motor mount bolt, jack up side etc. etc.and that last bolt on driver side sucks b**ls. I had them coated and everything then hooked them to Pypes ball&socket downpipes. If you want it louder, why not bite the bullet and go back to 70s and glass packs? they're a bit ratty but loud as F when you WOT. 

In any case - I certainly recommend the RamAirResto manifolds. And am also jealous of the 5 speeds. I'll just live with my AutoGear/Muncie clone 4 sp and 3.90 rear gear. oh darn right?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

ylwgto said:


> I know you don't want turndowns, but that is what I have on my car and it is LOUD (to the point I created a post a while back asking about side exhaust in front of the wheels).
> 
> Mild 400, Hedman long tube headers, standard H crossover, 2 chamber flowmasters, turndowns right in front of axle. LOUD as F. What I'm missing is the nasty lope you probably just got from your cam swap.


If you look at my ugly motor thread, you'll see that in 3 evenings, I:

Stripped the engine of the valve covers, valley pan, intake, timing cover, water pump, pulleys, cam, lifters, and rockers.
Blasted and cleaned it all.
Painted it all.
Reassembled it all with a new cam, adjusted the valves, fixed leaks, fixed stripped holes, and corrected a misinstalled cam retainer!
If I skipped the paint work, I couldve done it all in one evening!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> You did the cam swap? You don't like it?
> 
> You can get a 2,500 stall converter for cheap. You could have the larger full size converter in that trans which will make it soggy/slow. Unless you know the trans is the born with TH-400 and it still has its original converter, you might want to just swap for a better converter until you can do the TKO or 4-speed swap.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all of your help and guidance on the project, Jim. Yep, cam swap is done! Can't say that I have any regrets, because the cam retaining plate was installed wrong, so it was starving for oil. Plus, I had a few leaks, a few stripped bolt holes, poorly adjusted valves, and a seriously deficient paint job... all of which I corrected!

As you told me to expect, my power band moved up a bit from the new LSA... So it's a little doggy off the line, but roll on power and exhaust note is an improvement. I was just hoping for a more dramatiic improvement on both fronts. 

All that being said... the TKX or a stall conv will help... And it was serious progress on many fronts. Ill get there! 

Within the last month on this forum, I learned to install a cam, adjust valves, build a dizzy, set a timing curve, and spot and correct a serious engine flaw. So even with my quietish exhaust, it's still a solid victory.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

gtojoe68 said:


> I have the Ram Air Resto Cast iron headers/HO Manifolds for D port heads. Your car won't get any louder, thats for sure But if you use the Remflex gaskets, you will NEVER have a leaky manifold again. I installed prior to my rebuild so I know I did it with motor in car, Need to remove motor mount bolt, jack up side etc. etc.and that last bolt on driver side sucks b**ls. I had them coated and everything then hooked them to Pypes ball&socket downpipes. If you want it louder, why not bite the bullet and go back to 70s and glass packs? they're a bit ratty but loud as F when you WOT.
> 
> In any case - I certainly recommend the RamAirResto manifolds. And am also jealous of the 5 speeds. I'll just live with my AutoGear/Muncie clone 4 sp and 3.90 rear gear. oh darn right?


Ive had two sets of straight through glass packs and it was still quiet. Now on Flowmaster 40's, which are typically considered obnoxious! My old 67 had the same setup with bullet mufflers and it was much louder... Which is why I was thinking that the 4/7 cam was partially responsible (and it was). I'm going to disconnect the tail pipes and see what the diff is. Then I'll try opening the headers.


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## Honeyharbour62 (Jul 15, 2018)

armyadarkness said:


> Ive had two sets of straight through glass packs and it was still quiet. Now on Flowmaster 40's, which are typically considered obnoxious! My old 67 had the same setup with bullet mufflers and it was much louder... Which is why I was thinking that the 4/7 cam was partially responsible (and it was). I'm going to disconnect the tail pipes and see what the diff is. Then I'll try opening the headers.


Some times I get change back from my 2 cents but here it is anyway. Full length Hedman headers on 67 400 with 670 heads ,Cam Motion custom grind cam with 112 LSA and little overlap. True duel exhaust, 
no crossover H or X pipe. 2.5 " stainless exhaust with Flowmaster 50s exiting in front of rears like NASCAR. The exit is straight cut. I've read that an angle cut will quiet things down. It's loud but not Barney pull me over in town loud. At wot very loud. Have you considered chambered exhaust?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Honeyharbour62 said:


> Some times I get change back from my 2 cents but here it is anyway. Full length Hedman headers on 67 400 with 670 heads ,Cam Motion custom grind cam with 112 LSA and little overlap. True duel exhaust,
> no crossover H or X pipe. 2.5 " stainless exhaust with Flowmaster 50s exiting in front of rears like NASCAR. The exit is straight cut. I've read that an angle cut will quiet things down. It's loud but not Barney pull me over in town loud. At wot very loud. Have you considered chambered exhaust?


I've considered a lot of different things, but Im perplexed because Ive had many similar cars, with less performance, which were much louder. Not much is louder than a Flowmaster 40, which is whats on there now. 

It's one thing to buy a $800 exhaust, but it gets pricey when you start butchering and swapping it out every 2 months. Three sets of mufflers, 2 sets of tips, 2 sets of tails, and 2 different crossovers, in one year.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

Honeyharbour62 said:


> Some times I get change back from my 2 cents but here it is anyway. Full length Hedman headers on 67 400 with 670 heads ,Cam Motion custom grind cam with 112 LSA and little overlap. True duel exhaust,
> no crossover H or X pipe. 2.5 " stainless exhaust with Flowmaster 50s exiting in front of rears like NASCAR. The exit is straight cut. I've read that an angle cut will quiet things down. It's loud but not Barney pull me over in town loud. At wot very loud. Have you considered chambered exhaust?


I've been considering changing from turndowns to side exit in front of rear tires for a while now. Do you have pics you could post of where your tips are and how you routed unde the car?
thanks!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

My old 66 Lemans had side exits before the rear tires. They were louder than tails, for sure.


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## Honeyharbour62 (Jul 15, 2018)

armyadarkness said:


> My old 66 Lemans had side exits before the rear tires. They were louder than tails, for sure.





armyadarkness said:


> My old 66 Lemans had side exits before the rear tires. They were louder than tails, for sure.


No pics from under but I can tell you that the mufflers are more or less under the seats then pipes are angled out. They don't protrude the sheet metal and blow just past outer edge of tires. Sent twice by accident.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Side exit looks good and Im sure it sounds good, too. 

I was always told (and have preached without evidence for 35 years) that the further forward the mufflers were, the louder the exhaust would be. Therefore, header mount mufflers would be the loudest. This theory could be credited by the fact that my mufflers are under the back seat... However the vette seems to disprove that theory, since the mufflers are at the rear bumper.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

A few of you guys should throw some sound clips on youtube! I'd be seriously interested in hearing the differences. Here's mine with the 4/7 swap cam, which from what Ive been told sounded great when I got on it. I'll post one with te new cam, ASAP.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Doesn't sound that quite especially for being outside, need to pump the go pedal a few times to the matt to really get a feel.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

I have RamAir manifolds and magniflow mufflers on 2.5 piping and you out do me on idle at least. Doesnt sound like you would need a stereo or that it would do any good lol. Straight pipe it😆


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## coyote595 (Dec 4, 2019)

Alright, this will seem like a really dumb question, but have you verified that when you push your gas pedal to the floor, you are actually getting full throttle at the carb. The reason I ask is that I recently installed new ACC Essex carpet in my car. I also got some really nice floor mats (made with the thicker Essex carpet). The combination of the carpet and the floor mats are limiting my throttle so that in order to get kickdown to happen, I have got to push REALLY hard on the pedal. I am going to have to cut the floor mat so it does not interfere with the gas pedal.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> I've considered a lot of different things, but Im perplexed because Ive had many similar cars, with less performance, which were much louder. Not much is louder than a Flowmaster 40, which is whats on there now.
> 
> It's one thing to buy a $800 exhaust, but it gets pricey when you start butchering and swapping it out every 2 months. Three sets of mufflers, 2 sets of tips, 2 sets of tails, and 2 different crossovers, in one year.



Hmmmmm. How old are you and how many loud exhaust cars did you think were really cool sounding - especially with wide open throttle?

Maybe its not the exhaust?????? LOL

*An old man is concerned that his wife is starting to go deaf...*








The old man goes to the doctor and says, "My wife can't hear very well anymore and I am getting worried. What should I do to help her?"

The doctor thinks for a minute and says, "First we need to understand how serious the problem is. Stand 25 feet away from her and ask her a question. If she doesn't respond, walk 5 ft closer and ask again. Repeat this until she can hear you and then let me know how far away you were standing."

The man is so concerned for his wife that he agrees to do what the doctor suggested. When he gets home, he sees his wife cooking in the kitchen. He stands 25 feet from his wife and says, "What's for dinner?"

The wife does not answer and he walks closer, "What's for dinner?"

The man does this 2 more times until he is standing only 5 feet from his wife. The man is now very worried and tries one last time, "What's for dinner?"

The wife looks over and yells at him, "I HAVE TOLD YOU 4 TIMES ALREADY, WE ARE HAVING LASAGNA!"


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> Hmmmmm. How old are you and how many loud exhaust cars did you think were really cool sounding - especially with wide open throttle?
> 
> Maybe its not the exhaust?????? LOL
> 
> ...


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## TCone (Jul 4, 2021)

armyadarkness said:


> Okay... 1967, 400, 670 heads, Dougs Headers, 2.5 duals, Flowmaster 40's, no crossover.
> 
> My exhaust is embarrassing. It's a beautiful car so so it draws a ton of attention... and then I have ZERO oomph to back it up. Im on my 3rd set of mufflers, 3rd crossover, and now my last ditch effort was to swap the cam, which I did, and I got no where.
> 
> ...





BearGFR said:


> Yes, RA manifolds are available and they can be installed with the engine in the car. It'll be harder to get the headers out than it will be to put them in.
> 
> When you say it has no "oomph" --- are you talking about how it sounds or that it doesn't have the power/performance it should?
> 
> ...


my 70 has hooker headers 2 1/2 exhaust with flow masters sounds amazing may also be part of the solid lifter cam


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## MidnightAuto (May 28, 2018)

this summer I did a top end refresh, from a crower 60916 and 77 heads on a stroked 421, to a crower 60919 with kre d ports. Exhaust remained exactly the same, rare manifolds, 2.25 pipes and dynomax ultra flows. The sound changed a lot which I am chalking up to the heads and bigger valves. Oddly enough, not much lope, which I thought that cam was going to give me more lope. Suspect it’s the 461 ci that is moderating that cam for lope.
My point overall- other things beside exhaust can change the sound too.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Here is a sound clip of mine. Yours sounds louder than mine which makes sense. Mine has a 461 with a Comp CE284H cam, 1.5 ratio rockers, factory cast manifolds (still waiting on the RARE manifolds to ship) and Pypes Race Pro mufflers (longer body 18").


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> Doesn't sound that quite especially for being outside, need to pump the go pedal a few times to the matt to really get a feel.


Bare in mind that the video was made with the x-pipe, which quieted it down, and the old 4/7 swap cam, which was milder too. Time for a new video.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

RMTZ67 said:


> I have RamAir manifolds and magniflow mufflers on 2.5 piping and you out do me on idle at least. Doesnt sound like you would need a stereo or that it would do any good lol. Straight pipe it😆


My 5.3 Silverado with stock exhaust and a Magnaflow, sounds wicked!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

coyote595 said:


> Alright, this will seem like a really dumb question, but have you verified that when you push your gas pedal to the floor, you are actually getting full throttle at the carb. The reason I ask is that I recently installed new ACC Essex carpet in my car. I also got some really nice floor mats (made with the thicker Essex carpet). The combination of the carpet and the floor mats are limiting my throttle so that in order to get kickdown to happen, I have got to push REALLY hard on the pedal. I am going to have to cut the floor mat so it does not interfere with the gas pedal.


Yes... That was an issue in my vette... so it's one of the first things that I checked!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Hmmmmm. How old are you and how many loud exhaust cars did you think were really cool sounding - especially with wide open throttle?
> 
> Maybe its not the exhaust?????? LOL
> 
> ...


Yes... Im sure that 40 years of playing the bass in heavy metal band, racing motorcycles, shooting weekly, and hot rods... have not helped.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

TCone said:


> my 70 has hooker headers 2 1/2 exhaust with flow masters sounds amazing may also be part of the solid lifter cam


Full tail pipes?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

MidnightAuto said:


> this summer I did a top end refresh, from a crower 60916 and 77 heads on a stroked 421, to a crower 60919 with kre d ports. Exhaust remained exactly the same, rare manifolds, 2.25 pipes and dynomax ultra flows. The sound changed a lot which I am chalking up to the heads and bigger valves. Oddly enough, not much lope, which I thought that cam was going to give me more lope. Suspect it’s the 461 ci that is moderating that cam for lope.
> My point overall- other things beside exhaust can change the sound too.


My new cam has a wider LSA, and that reduced the lope a tad, but it also has more exhaust duration and lift, so that beefed up the tone


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Jared said:


> Here is a sound clip of mine. Yours sounds louder than mine which makes sense. Mine has a 461 with a Comp CE284H cam, 1.5 ratio rockers, factory cast manifolds (still waiting on the RARE manifolds to ship) and Pypes Race Pro mufflers (longer body 18").


Sounds beefy to me!! Must really roar when youre on it.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

You cannot compare a Chevy exhaust sound to a Pontiac. Chevy sound can be more crisp and snappy ad has a different pitch. Pontiac does not have that, period. To get a rough idle/lopey sound, just pick a cam with a lot of overlap like the RA IV cam - 87 degrees. Add a cam with 320 degrees of duration and you may have your sound. Plenty of rough idle/lope. Engine won't turn on until about 3,500 RPM's, and it will be real balky driving around town, but............you will sound cool if that is what you need. 

You also have the AVS, not the Q-jet. The Q-jet offfers a different sound when kicked wide open and a different feel. Maybe go back to a Q-jet.

I think you should take it to a drag strip and get some times to see what it really does and measure it against your Vette or truck. Then you will know if you can determine the faster vehicle based on the exhaust note.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

armyadarkness said:


> Sounds beefy to me!! Must really roar when youre on it.


It's pretty loud when your on it. There is an off drone inside when cruising at ~1800rpm. With the cam I have in there, it really doesn't like to be below 2000 rpm anyway which may contribute to the drone.


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## TCone (Jul 4, 2021)

armyadarkness said:


> Full tail pipes?


yes with the 70 tips as should be121


armyadarkness said:


> Full tail pipes?


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## TCone (Jul 4, 2021)

complete system


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

Honeyharbour62 said:


> No pics from under but I can tell you that the mufflers are more or less under the seats then pipes are angled out. They don't protrude the sheet metal and blow just past outer edge of tires. Sent twice by accident.
> View attachment 147632


 nice, I like that


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## TCone (Jul 4, 2021)

how do I post video on site


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

ylwgto said:


> nice, I like that



The placement of the muffler in the system can also have an effect on sound - another thing to play with as long as you have the clearance.

Here are a few examples of how this works.









Mustang 1996 - 2004 Side Exit Exhaust Kit


1996 - 2005 Mustang Side Exhaust with SpinTech Mufflers and Tips




spintechmufflers.com


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

TCone said:


> how do I post video on site


I don't think you can directly. Upload to YouTube and copy the link


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Just to provide some examples...

Below is a link to a video, shot by a friend of mine from his '71. His '71 has a moderately built 455 and runs a Demon carb. I mention that only because when he let me drive it once, I was blown away by how good the throttle response was. It was instant.

Anyway, a few years ago on a Saturday morning, we decided to do some "testing" with him in his car, me in mine. He shot this video. You won't be able to see my car at first, but you'll be able to hear it when the 'test' begins. 

At the time this was shot, I was running Doug's round port 4-tube headers into 2 1/2" Pypes exhaust, X-pipe, and their RacePro mufflers. 461, Comp solid roller cam, 236/242 @ 0.050 tappet lift, 110 LSA, 1.65:1 rockers netting me right at 0.600 lift at the valves. 455 SD Qjet, Torker 1 intake. I do have electric cutouts on the car but they were closed during this video. 

He shot this video. You won't be able to see my car at first, but you'll be able to hear the lifters when I pull alongside him, right before the 'test' begins. 😁

About 10 years ago, not long after I first got it running and driving, I shot this one. It's a walk around. At about 1:30 I start it, and at about 3:00 you can hear what it sounded like with the cutouts open. Running everything almost 'the same' as when my friend and I did our test. The differences were that on this earlier video, I was still running iron #722 heads and a port-matched factory intake. I would have preferred to have kept it that way, but a problem that occurred later with one of the heads forced me to replace them with 72cc round port E-heads, which also forced me to change to the T1 intake because my factory intake wasn't tall enough to cover the ports on the new heads.

Bear


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

lol! It sounds awesome, everywhere! I took a video of mine without the xpipe and with the new cam... but it's too hard to tell the difference because it wasn't a controlled environment. I can definitely hear that the lope is less radical with the new, wider LSA. I also need to get a buddy help me with some revving and take-offs. Gopro stuff...


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> lol! It sounds awesome, everywhere! I took a video of mine without the xpipe and with the new cam... but it's too hard to tell the difference because it wasn't a controlled environment. I can definitely hear that the lope is less radical with the new, wider LSA. I also need to get a buddy help me with some revving and take-offs. Gopro stuff...



You want me to drive up to NJ and give you a hug? Sounds like a Pontiac. Lope comes from Overlap. 

Option #1 - Throw in a RA IV cam with 87 degrees of overlap and you will have your lope. Add 3.90 gears to make it streetable and a 2,800 stall converter.






Option #2 - Sell the GTO and buy a 1967 Big Block Chevelle.






Option #3 - Install a BB into the GTO.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I told Butler I wanted the biggest cam that my car would run, and they said the cam they gave me was as big as they'd put in a 400. Yes, as you and I discussed, my LSA increased, moving my power band up and helping my lope to disappear... However, the new cam also ditched the 4/7 swap and it increased exhaust lift and duration, so it was one step back and two steps forward! I REALLY would love 355 gears, but Im already cruising at 3400 rpms.

As for driving to NJ for hugs, you can come here and help me work on the car. We'll see where it goes from there.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

HOLY BLOOP! Realized that the exhaust gasket on the driverside header was blown out on the center ports. Went to tighten the rear bolt and it spun in the breeze. Went to remove the bolt and cannot get a wrench on it. I have every tool known to man... but nope!

So last time I installed headers on a pontiac was 1995. DO I need to pull the steering shaft to get at that 3rd bolt? 

I will have to pull down the dougs header, tap and helicoil the head, and reinstall. At this point it seems like I need to pull the motor.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Army: "As for driving to NJ for hugs, you can come here and help me work on the car. We'll see where it goes from there."

LOL

Butler was plying safe and practical. You can always go bigger, but the results could be as disappointing as going too small. Remember Goldielocks? Butler gave you the "just right" cam not knowing you or your engine build.

A roller cam, in my opinion, does not seem to have the same sound as a flat tappet cam because of the BIG differences in lobe shape, the fast ramp opening, the longer amount of time the valve can be held open, and the fast closing.

Go flat tappet, and go solid. Get a cam with 320 degrees of duration and .530" - .550" lift if your springs can handle it. You should have a nice lope with that kind of duration and the overlap that comes with it. Then idle the engine down as low as you dare with out it stalling (and have reasonable oil pressure). You can get more out of a manual trans than auto. The lowered idle will also bring out the radical sound of the cam.

Assuming you still have the 10:1 or so compression ratio to use a big cam.

The power range will probably be 2,500 - 6,500 RPM's, but limit the RPM's so you don't pop your engine. Get a higher stall converter, and have fun. See below.

If you would let go of some of that cash roll you keep in your pant's front pocket and purchase a quality "tight" 2,500 - 2,800 RPM stall converter, it might put a smile on your face. It'll put the engine right into the lower power range of the cam bypassing the "not so big HP" of the under 2,500 RPM range when you nail the gas. It should pull well enough that you will forget about your rear's gera ratio. It'll still easily cruise with little slip and not heat up the trans or the fluid and won't kill gas mileage. But when you nail the pedal - it will take-off.

You know you won't be doing the 4-speed/5-speed swap anytime soon. May be a couple years. So let go of some of that cash and buy a converter. Should be around $350.00. You won't be driving the car much in winter in the snow at some point and you need something to do rather than sit around the house wrapped up in your Hello Kitty house coat eating cannoli's and watching soap opera's.

Or, bring it to a trans shop and let them swap it out in a day.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> HOLY BLOOP! Realized that the exhaust gasket on the driverside header was blown out on the center ports. Went to tighten the rear bolt and it spun in the breeze. Went to remove the bolt and cannot get a wrench on it. I have every tool known to man... but nope!
> 
> So last time I installed headers on a pontiac was 1995. DO I need to pull the steering shaft to get at that 3rd bolt?
> 
> I will have to pull down the dougs header, tap and helicoil the head, and reinstall. At this point it seems like I need to pull the motor.



Maybe just unbolt the header flanges on each side and then the engine mount and lift up the one side - watching that you don't hit/bind on anything when you roll it over.

Maybe a fresh 461CI build from Santa is in order?


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Maybe a fresh 461CI build from Santa is in order?


I'm starting to believe that that's where I was heading the entire time.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Army: "As for driving to NJ for hugs, you can come here and help me work on the car. We'll see where it goes from there."
> 
> LOL
> 
> ...


Thanks Jim. As it sits now, I'm planning to do the Tremec by February. Once I get something in my head, it tends to become reality quick... was only two weeks to swap my cam and paint my engine, from the time that we PM'd about it.

That being said, I do often consider that with 355's and a better converter, I probably wouldnt even mind leaving the TH400.

When I was looking for converters last year, the pricing was crazy for anything good. Do you have a recommendation?


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

You could always get rid of your mufflers all together. Can't get much louder than that. Here was what mine sounded like with straight pipes. This was the very tame and very tired 400 that was in there right before it grenanded so a fairly mild cam, factory manifolds and 2.25 inch pipes that dumped where the mufflers should have gone.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> Thanks Jim. As it sits now, I'm planning to do the Tremec by February. Once I get something in my head, it tends to become reality quick... was only two weeks to swap my cam and paint my engine, from the time that we PM'd about it.
> 
> That being said, I do often consider that with 355's and a better converter, I probably wouldnt even mind leaving the TH400.
> 
> When I was looking for converters last year, the pricing was crazy for anything good. Do you have a recommendation?



I bought a onverter from Edge Racing Converters for my bother's 360CI - 2,500 stall "tight" converter. They have them for the TH-400 - $325.00. Just fill out their form to give them the specs so they can build a converter that will match the car.






TH400 : Edge Racing Converters, More Horsepower with More Torque Guaranteed!


Edge Racing Converters : TH400 - Ford Dodge / Chrysler / RAM GM Sonnax Billet Servo's Racing Converters, Race converters horsepower, with more torque and low stall, high stall - Streetedge, proedge, racersedge & custom performance torque converters, powerglide



www.edgeracingconverters.com


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

armyadarkness said:


> When I was looking for converters last year, the pricing was crazy for anything good. Do you have a recommendation?


You didn't ask me (and I'm devastated... ), but I have one. I'm running one that was recommended to me by Cliff Ruggles after Continental went belly up, and I really like it. As long as you keep your big toe out of the carburetor, it's very well mannered, almost like a stock converter. However, when you hammer it, it gets with the program in a big way.

It's from TriShield Performance, and it's a 9.5" converter. Sounds way small, couldn't possibly be streetable - right? I admit I was skeptical myself, but I knew that the former Continental had a great reputation for being nice on the street, good on the track and folks like Jim Hand recommended them. Cliff also sold them himself until they went away. So, when Cliff told me he liked TriShield as much if not more than he had Continental, I took a deep breath and ordered one. 

These things are no joke. They're built to a very high quality and they work great. I know I like mine.

Discussion on TSP converters

Bear


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

BearGFR said:


> You didn't ask me (and I'm devastated... ), but I have one. I'm running one that was recommended to me by Cliff Ruggles after Continental went belly up, and I really like it. As long as you keep your big toe out of the carburetor, it's very well mannered, almost like a stock converter. However, when you hammer it, it gets with the program in a big way.
> 
> It's from TriShield Performance, and it's a 9.5" converter. Sounds way small, couldn't possibly be streetable - right? I admit I was skeptical myself, but I knew that the former Continental had a great reputation for being nice on the street, good on the track and folks like Jim Hand recommended them. Cliff also sold them himself until they went away. So, when Cliff told me he liked TriShield as much if not more than he had Continental, I took a deep breath and ordered one.
> 
> ...


A good "tight" stall converter makes a big difference in the car's performance, right? Drives like normal until you put that GO pedal down and zing the RPM's up into that cam's sweet spot. Hmmmm, brings to mind that saying, "sit down, shut up, and hang on."


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

PontiacJim said:


> A good "tight" stall converter makes a big difference in the car's performance, right?


Indeed it does. When I last had it running (if I can remember that far back), even with the drag radials I run on it full time if I hammered it from a stop on the blacktop road in front of our place, it would spin all the way through 1st and 2nd, not catching until 3rd. 

I've got the bottom end buttoned up now, the timing cover and balancer on. Next step I'm planning on is to way overfill it with oil and hang it off my hoist for a day or two, and hope it's sealed.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> A good "tight" stall converter makes a big difference in the car's performance, right? Drives like normal until you put that GO pedal down and zing the RPM's up into that cam's sweet spot. Hmmmm, brings to mind that saying, "sit down, shut up, and hang on."


I was married to a red-headed, Irish, drinker... So "Sit down, Shut up" is an old favorite of mine. The hang on part is new though.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

BearGFR said:


> Indeed it does. When I last had it running (if I can remember that far back), even with the drag radials I run on it full time if I hammered it from a stop on the blacktop road in front of our place, it would spin all the way through 1st and 2nd, not catching until 3rd.
> 
> I've got the bottom end buttoned up now, the timing cover and balancer on. Next step I'm planning on is to way overfill it with oil and hang it off my hoist for a day or two, and hope it's sealed.


Thanks guys... Lots of good information here... For afternoon worth of work I can likely fix all of my remaining issues and save $4500. Right now with my mild build, I have no trouble spinning the posi and chriping the gears in full auto... But I also can tell that it's just not right. Big decisions to make here!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> Thanks guys... Lots of good information here... For afternoon worth of work I can likely fix all of my remaining issues and save $4500. Right now with my mild build, I have no trouble spinning the posi and chriping the gears in full auto... But I also can tell that it's just not right. Big decisions to make here!


No decisions to be made, we made it for you. Buy the converter. Once you install the manual trans, you can recoup some of your investment when you sell the TH-400 w/converter, or just the converter. That 5-speed is going to get really tiresome shifting all the time on those NJ roads and NJ traffic and you aren't getting any younger as the rotator cuff starts to act up in your right shoulder and the left knee requires a liberal coating of Ben-Gay on every outing, and then there is the Ibuprophen.............


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> No decisions to be made, we made it for you. Buy the converter. Once you install the manual trans, you can recoup some of your investment when you sell the TH-400 w/converter, or just the converter. That 5-speed is going to get really tiresome shifting all the time on those NJ roads and NJ traffic and you aren't getting any younger as the rotator cuff starts to act up in your right shoulder and the left knee requires a liberal coating of Ben-Gay on every outing, and then there is the Ibuprophen.............


Go for the 5 speed. When your knee goes out install a clutchless manual transmission. When your arthritis is too bad for the paddle shifter. Get the cybernetic implant and shift with your mind, When your mind goes have the casket shake every 2,5 seconds so your corpse thinks your still shifting.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Do you have the trans yet...if it was me I wouldn't waste time and money for something you're just going to change, gather the parts then pull the trigger. I love shifting mine except in traffic or when it gets stuck in second like it did on the last drive of the season. Heck I use the auto stick in my wife's '13 Challenger and our '17. Impala but that's a button, not very fun.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

For WHIW probably less than two cents I wanted to check my new belt and alternator so I posted a video on YouTube of my exhaust if you're still deciding what to do with yours Army, I know it's inside but all doors are open. It still sounds better and lumpier in person, this is aftermarket manifolds, 2.5" down pipes, crossover and Race Pro mufflers through tails. It's probably not loud enough for you but I like it although I am once again contemplating cutouts  P.S....do you like how I hooked the throttle to my tail lights...guess I was fat footed  it's under : Pypes exhaust w/ram air manifolds and Race Pro mufflers.


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

Baaad65 said:


> For WHIW probably less than two cents I wanted to check my new belt and alternator so I posted a video on YouTube of my exhaust if you're still deciding what to do with yours Army, I know it's inside but all doors are open. It still sounds better and lumpier in person, this is aftermarket manifolds, 2.5" down pipes, crossover and Race Pro mufflers through tails. It's probably not loud enough for you but I like it although I am once again contemplating cutouts  P.S....do you like how I hooked the throttle to my tail lights...guess I was fat footed  it's under : Pypes exhaust w/ram air manifolds and Race Pro mufflers.


I think your camera crew needs some more practice. That is coming from you #1 subscriber.  

Sounds good.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

67ventwindow said:


> I think your camera crew needs some more practice. That is coming from you #1 subscriber.
> 
> Sounds good.


I know I need to find a new brick this one is just not cutting it


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Baaad65 said:


> I know I need to find a new brick this one is just not cutting it


...and thanks


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