# body work question



## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

Hi guys. Has anyone used these universal door braces? Or anyone has any opinions on these universal braces? Has anyone used them on a convertible?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Never used them, but certainly a good idea. The photo shows how bad the floors are rotted and I suspect the body was taken off the chassis and is on a body rotisserie. This is needed so the body does not collapse in half and you keep the factory measurements. You want to do this before you take it off the chassis and write down your dimensions - as many as you can get. You can do the same thing by welding the bars on and then removing them later, that set up pictured is a nice bolt on unit.


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

Since I do not know how to weld, a bolt-on system seems like a good idea. Any opinions on how strong a bolt-on set up is? What specific measurements should I be taking?


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

While it seems like a good idea I think I would still be partial to the welded in braces if I was attempting a frame off on a convertible. Reasons? 

1. Expense. see all those hiem joints and brackets? I'll wager that you could buy a small 110V mig welder for what a pre-packaged brace setup like that costs. 

2. You will use this exactly one time, and if you try to sell it you will get pennies on the dollar. The welder will last you a long time. I've had mine for almost 20 years and use it all the time. 

3. Strength and stability. I would trust welded braces to be more stable and less likely to move or tweak the body. Overtightening the braces will tweak the body. Once the welds are in they will not move. When you remove them you simply grind the welds down and you're done.

This is just my .02 but if you are undertaking a job as big as a frame off resto you should definitely own a welder. They are super easy to learn to use and really indispensable. If you were closer I could teach you to the basics of welding in an afternoon. I've taught my 12 year old daughter to weld. Not to say you won't need to practice and build up your skills but a frame off car restoration is a perfect way to do that. 

You can literally buy a flux core welder from Harbor Frieght for $100. I recommend a gas welder in that it makes a cleaner weld but they cost a little more and you need to have the tank of gas. I like Miller Welders Miller - Welding Equipment - MIG/TIG/Stick Welders & Plasma Cutting but other brands such as Hobart and Lincoln are good quality welders that will last you for years. Some can be had for around $500 and maybe cheaper if you shop around. I also recommend an auto darkening helmet. They can be had now for around $50 or less for a cheap one.

Honestly IMO you should consult with the body shop who will be doing your paint and body work. If you don't get this right it will cost you big bucks in the long run and possibly ruin the car if the body tweaks :banghead:. I've done a couple of "frame off's" and honestly a convertible frame off would have me sweating the details. This is a job not to be taken lightly. If it didn't _need_ to come off the frame I would not do it. If the frame is not damaged you can still replace the body bushings and do a thorough paint job with the body on the frame. I have done this too and the results were excellent. 

I'd like to see you get this project done as you are obviously dedicated to it. This might be something you want to leave to the professionals. Oh; and I always recommend getting testimonials from customers if you are getting a lot of work done at a body shop or something like an engine rebuild. A reputable shop will have no problem producing the names and numbers of happy customers. :cheers


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

Alky, what if I combine ideas? Specifically, go to a welding shop, have bolt on brackets made (to bolt on to hinge and latch area) and then welds bars/rods to the brackets in same format. Would that work? This kit shown is about $370 (with sipping), but I have no idea how much a welder or machinist would charge me to make the brackets then weld the rods to brackets (after I give exact measurements).


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

I'm sure that would work. If you have a drill and a hacksaw you could make the brackets and braces *yourself*. I would use something like 3/16x1/12 angle iron for the brackets and maybe 3/4 or 1" square tube for the braces. Any local metal supply house should have all that. Do it!:thumbsup:


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

mrvandermey said:


> Since I do not know how to weld...



So, why not learn? MIG welders that can be used to work with sheet metal aren't that expensive. For example:
Northern Industrial Welders MIG 140I Wire-Feed MIG Welder &#151; 140 Amp Output | Wirefeed Welders| Northern Tool + Equipment

And there are web resources for learning.
Welding - The DIY Guide

The rest is just getting some scrap material and playing with it until you start to get it down. It's not insanely difficult, it just takes practice and experience.

Being able to weld is going to be a requirement for getting your car done at some point, unless you're made of money and also have the time to wait (and wait and wait and wait) for some shop to do it for you.

The braces you need can be welded to the structures that will be behind interior panels when the car is done, so you won't need to worry about making "pretty" welds. They just need to hold.

Bear


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> So, why not learn? MIG welders that can be used to work with sheet metal aren't that expensive. For example:
> Northern Industrial Welders MIG 140I Wire-Feed MIG Welder — 140 Amp Output | Wirefeed Welders| Northern Tool + Equipment
> 
> And there are web resources for learning.
> ...


I would love to learn how to weld. I even looked at the local community college to see if they had courses. Of course they do....M-Th 8 AM-12 PM.....I just can not close down my business for that many hours and that many days. If it were one day or at night, I would be all over it. In fact, my girlfriend also wants to learn to weld as well. Ironically, I did take metal shop in 11th grade and did do some welding. In fact, I made a roll bar for my convertible sports car from scratch, I think I got a "B+" or an "A-" on the project.

But welding and to some degree, sanding, seem elusive to me. I am blown away by guys who can sand (say after skim coat or primer) and can tell by feel that it is just right (especially with the complex curves of older cars).


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

It's not by feel. It's by visual inspection (web search and read about "body work guide coat"). 

You have some sort of career, job, something that pays the bills, right? Were you born knowing how to do it or did you learn?

This stuff is no different. In fact it's better because even if you DID attend a class, the only way you're going to ever really learn how to do it is hands-on practice, and when you factor in the availability of information on the 'net, you can dispense with the class and jump straight to the hands-on part.

Bear


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

I wholeheartedly agree.

Mig welding is not that hard to do. Once you figure out the basics it is just down to practice. I'm willing to bet if you went to a welding supply store they would give you a demonstration and/or show you the basics if you spent a little money with them.


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

I think I might give this a try. Just so I am point in right direction, is MIG welding best for sheet metal? What about fabrication (like angle iron or steel rods, etc)? I do know how to do online research and I follow directions well. 

By the way, I am a lawyer by profession, and yes, it took me quite a bit of time to master that....and yes, that is why I own my own law PRACTICE. lol


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Depends on what you mean by "best". If you want to create tiny, beautiful welds that are works of art and need very little "bodywork" to finish, then TIG is the way to go. But it's more difficult to master (and more expensive, and slower) than MIG. MIG is the easiest to learn and the least expensive to get into, at least on an entry level for thin materials like sheet metal body work. There are MIG machines that are capable of pretty heavy structural work too, but they tend to be quite a bit more expensive and require 240V power to operate. I built an engine cradle with casters that I used to transport my completed engine to the shop for break-in and testing on the dyno, and I made it out of 1" square tubing using the same MIG welder I used to do the body work, but that was probably very close to the limit of what it was capable of doing, even with me beveling and making multiple passes over each weld. I wouldn't attempt to make structural welds on a chassis with it (its the same one I posted the link to earlier, from Northern Tool). However one of the larger 240V MIG systems would be just fine for chassis work on thicker material.

For what you're wanting to do, a mid-quality 130V unit ought to be just peachy keen.

One caveat: resist the temptation to go with a "flux core" unit because they're cheaper and don't require shielding gas. They also make ugly welds, are harder to control, and spatter like crazy making them not good at all for body work.

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I'll interrupt briefly here: are you up to the monumental task of doing a frame-off type of restoration? Does your car need a frame off restoration? I'm in California too, and have owned many GTO's over the years. None of them needed a frame off restoration. If you can repair/restore your car with the body on the frame, you will be hundreds of hours ahead of the game and much more likely to stick with the project. I know of MANY decent driver quality cars that were reduced to a pile of parts and then scrapped or sold off for pennies on the dollar after languishing for years in some dark corner. Don't be that guy.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Frame off can indeed be a lot of work and time. As Geeteeohguy says, it can be frustrating and become discouraging if you get in over your head and lose your passion. Maybe you might consider farming out some of the major work? You have not described what your project needs.

On a Mig welder. Pretty easy to pick it up with some practice. What type to buy? Go to your local welding supply store and pay them a visit. Tell them what you are looking for, basically sheet metal and I am guessing about 1/4" thick. I like Lincoln brand, but there is also Miller, Esab, and even Home Depot and others offer mig welders for the do-it-yourself guy. Like Bear said, stay away from flux core wire as it has more problems in making it work for you. You want solid wire with the set-up for a bottle of shielding gas which will include the purchase of a tank of gas for your application, regulator, hose, etc.. Get a good welding helmet that will auto-darken when you strike your weld as opposed to a more inexpensive fixed tinted glass shield. If you get into welding, most likely you will be needing to cut steel, so I would look into a torch set as well if you don't already have this. You can get the gas bottles in different sizes so you can get smaller ones for home use. Technique is important and knowing how to manage the heat in welding is important if you don't want to warp and distort a perfectly good replacement panel, or your car's body panel. 

A school is the best way to do this, I took a college program that was almost a 1 year course that covered all types of welding, stick, Mig, Tig, Oxy-acytelene, torch work, pipe welding, up, down, overhead welding positions etc.. Each position has a different technique, especially overhead if you find yourself on your back and having to weld above you. BUT, I suspect if you were interested in buy equipment, the welding shop you will be buying your stuff from would be willing to spend a little time with you welding. Most of those guys are welders themselves and they often have an area out back where they could give you the basics -they do want to make the sale.

Another consideration is electricity. Make sure you have an outlet, or better yet, a dedicated outlet, that will handle the amps needed for the Mig welder. If you don't, when your mig welder wire "sticks" on you, it may kick out the breaker if the circuit you are running off of cannot handle the load. It is not all as bad as I may be making this to sound, but you want to be informed so as welding will be a "good" experience and not a bad one. Your welding store will also have books you may want to look at as well as they usually have free guide books/pamphlets that give tips and help.

Welding can be fun and enjoyable, but you want to have the right tools and knowledge to make it all work for you and not leave you frustrated, angry, and feeling like you want to give up and throw in the towel on a good project car. And above all - SAFETY.

Also, do you have tools to cut panels out if you are indeed doing this? Things like electric shears,air hammer/chisels, die grinder with cutting wheel, torch, etc. are some of the tools I have and use. Of course a BFH is mandatory! HaHaHa. Not assuming you don't have these, just pointing a few things out while I am on panel replacement/welding.

Keep posting questions and give more info on what you are doing and you should get some good advice or pointers.


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## 68Resto-mod (Nov 10, 2009)

When I started my project about 7 years ago (has it been that long?), I had no welding experience except for some stick welding I did in high school shop class. I bought a Hobart Handler 140 MIG from Tractor Supply for about $350. They now will run you between $450 and $500. I was very leery about buying one of those budget Harbor Freight models. 

Add about $50 for an auto darkening helmet, $20 for welding gloves, $10 for a welding cap (so your hair does not catch fire), and I even bought a pair of welding sleeves to cover my arms. I bought an empty welding gas tank for $200 only to find out my local welding gas supply did not re-fill tanks, they only exchanges them so I never saw my new tank again. Re-fills for MIG gas is around $45. 

There are some very good articles on autobody101.com. Here is a link to several articles.

How to Paint Your Own Car, Auto Body Discussion Forum & Videos ? AutoBody101.com

Read “MIG Welding Basics”.

I made my own body brace out of 1” square tubing and some flat stock. Worked great! Here are some pictures showing the brace on my 68 body while on the rotisserie.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lancen...authkey=Gv1sRgCKCCoeLKopbxlgE&feat=directlink

I am still not very good. That’s what they make angle grinders for. I welded all patch panels and floor pans and even hand formed some of them. Here is what it looks like today.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

68Resto-mod

Great words of encouragements. Super series of photos showing your work. Car is looking fantastic. Doing my '68 Lemans frame off (resto-mod) and sure could use that body rotisserie. Good photos of it and I have access to a lot of scrap steel at work that could be easily used to fabricate one for my project.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

^ Agreed 100%. You don't get into a frame off restoration without total dedication.

It took me 6 years to do mine and I never thought it would take that long. Of course I was working 12 hour days and going to school at the same time but through perseverance I saw it through to the end. I remember thinking at many times how I would never get it done and what would happen if I had to give up and sell and my determination to never do that and finish. It was almost like therapy and even after finishing you are never really finished.

If you _really_ want it you _will_ do it. 

Driving it is almost secondary to working on it and improving this or that. A frame off resto is nothing to be taken lightly and tests all your skills. I'm proud to say I did everything on my car but the roll cage and engine assembly.

Driving my car is an immense source of pride and I haven't let anyone else behind the wheel. Well....I did let my wife pull it in the garage once and I think we both almost had a heart attack.......:leaving:


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

PontiacJim said:


> Frame off can indeed be a lot of work and time. As Geeteeohguy says, it can be frustrating and become discouraging if you get in over your head and lose your passion. Maybe you might consider farming out some of the major work? You have not described what your project needs.
> 
> 
> Also, do you have tools to cut panels out if you are indeed doing this? Things like electric shears,air hammer/chisels, die grinder with cutting wheel, torch, etc. are some of the tools I have and use. Of course a BFH is mandatory! HaHaHa. Not assuming you don't have these, just pointing a few things out while I am on panel replacement/welding.
> ...


To update you on what I am doing. First, my '68 GTO convertible is already stripped down to a bare carcass. Although the front clip is sitting on car, it is not bolted on. So as of right now, the car has no front clip (attached), no interior, no trunk lid, no front suspension or steering, no rear suspension, no engine, no tranny, and no drive shaft. Most of the body bushings are shot, and the frame has normal wear and tear. The only things not yet removed from frame are brake and fuel lines, the steering shaft, and fuel tank. No, I am not planning on a full show car, but for me even a driver has to be above average. 

As for the welding, I have three areas of concern: 1) driver quarter panel has rust along fender well and lower rear quarter; 2) Passenger quarter panel has a significant dent (with poor repair) in between wheel well and door jam, as well as a bit of rust in lower rear quarter; and 3) trunk floor is spotted with rust holes and has two significant rust areas all on drivers half of trunk floor. In addition, I have a couple of minor pin holes in drivers door, drivers front fender, and both foot front foot area on floors. I have replacement sheet metal for all of the big stuff and most of the small stuff. Here are a few pics.

As for tools, specifically cutting tools. I have very little. I have a Saws-All, a jig saw and circular saw (neither are very useful in auto work), a grinder, a cutting wheel, and a Dremmel cutting tool (again not great for auto body work). 

Yes, I have always wanted to learn to do mechanics, body work, welding and even some fabrication. But my skill sets lie in a different direction. I mean, if you need something written up (paper, article, letter, legal document, etc), if you need something interpreted (a law, regulation, policy, etc), if you need a hired advocate or need something sold, I am your man. However, I have never been very mechanically inclined, and working with my hands is more often than not, very frustrating. I have very high standards and making costly mistakes is rarely a viable option for me. So I am usually the guy who hires professionals to do that hands on mechanical work I can not. Although the local colleges around here do not offer courses that work around my work schedule (night or weekends), I would like to learn some of this hands on work. My strength is I research well and follow directions well. So maybe I will be a self taught (or at least proficient enough for my own work) mechanic or body guy.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

All the enouragement in the world probably won't help if learning how to do the work yourself isn't something that you _want_ to do. There's a place in the car hobby and even in the revered GTO world for folks who'd rather buy than build. 

My older son inherited the gearhead gene from me, but you younger son didn't. He can still do his own basic maintenance and has a good understanding of how everything works (mostly because Dad "made" him learn that), but although he can do it, it's just not fun for him - and I've learned to be ok with that.

A quality car is a quality car, no matter how it gets that way.

Bear


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

You will need your skillset up front to find someone to do the welding and body work that you can trust for a fair price. Get references and follow up on them. Get the amount and scope of agreed upon work in writing, and what any "change order" or extra work will cost hourly and who is responsible for supplying materials and a _*time frame*_. Sometimes sourcing parts yourself can save money as if they have to search them out they will bill for the time and usually mark-up. Be forewarned that body and paint costs can run into the 10's of thousands and is by far the most expensive part of a resto. I, like these guys, chose to take it all on myself except for engine build and am glad i did. It not only saved me thousands, it expanded my skillset and gave me a thorough knowledge of just how my car works. After all the blood sweat and tears (and there will be equal quantities of each) when your done the car is a piece of you, and you can take pride every time someone gives you a thumbs up or a "sharp car" at the cruise in, knowing you did it.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

OK, you have usual rot & rust, but not too bad. You say you have a lot of the replacement panels, so good start. Tools and some knowledge is all you need, and some knowledge comes from hands on, and hands on leads to figuring out what tools you sometimes need. Good source for body work tools, at least ideas, check out the Eastwood Company online and see what they offer.

Probably the one thing you want to keep in check is "heat". Heat warps things. When you do any panel replacement repair, you want to use patience and make small "stitch" welds (about 1/2 to 1 inch) or "tacks". You want to space them apart to keep heat down, ie do one at one end, then the other end, maybe another somewhere else, and let it cool down to room temp. Then come back stitch a few more spaced apart welds, let cool again. Eventually you will be simply filling in between stitches. It is a bit timely, but best results. Then you grind down the welds, fill in any missed spots, and then apply a coat of filler and smooth it all out. So you might have a couple panels going at the same time so you can move about. Saw a TV program that showed this technique quite well. Same with grinding or even sand blasting. Get the panel too hot in one place and it can warp or stretch. Just more work to fix, but do-able. I grew up on Oxy-acetylene (torch) panel welding. Even with a small flame, you got warping and distortion on body panels - lot of hammer and dolly work. Mig is much better, but have not tried my hand at it on body panels as of yet, so even I have to learn, but I know the technique. If the small holes are just that and the rest of the panel is solid, rather than use plastic filler (bondo), fiberglass/ fiberglass cloth is a good alternative. If you plan on doing your own bodywork..........a few more tools need be added to your collection. Sanding block, board sander, DA sander, cheese grater, bondo applicator/spreader. Again, not to difficult, but here you have to have good hands to "feel" when the filler is "right" with regards to shape and smoothness. Using contrasting layers of primer really helps here to bring in good shape/fill. The board sander is my favorite on larger panels. When you get the bondo where you want it, I give it a last coat of primer, apply a light layer/skim coat of red spot putty, then use the sanding block and wet sand following the contours and curves. Then when perfect, one last coat of primer. 

Keep in mind, primer is not a sealer, so rust can still develop as moisture will penetrate the primer and attack the metal. Use a primer sealer. When I did my brother's 1967 GTO in 1981, I used an epoxy primer on the entire car over the bare metal. This seals the metal. A good auto body supply shop should be able to help you with your needs. Eastwood Company even sells a special primer for metals designed for welding where the panel will be hidden and you can't prime later.

Many good books at your local book store on bodywork basics which should also cover tools and techniques.

Another suggestion, any local technical schools that might be interested in doing some project work as a school program? My brother went to an auto mechanics tech school for his high school years and he brought in family cars and friends cars to work on. I went to an auto body tech school after graduating and brought in several cars which I worked on and painted. 

Any local chapter car clubs that could help? You can also find an auto body shop you could hang around and watch the repairs. I still do this with the machine shop I use. I still learn new things at age 55! HaHaHa.


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

Thanks guys for all the advice. Many of these tips (like stich welding), I am familiar with. Like I said, I research well. 

I was talking to my brother last night and apparently he knows how to weld. So, we are looking into buying a welding machine and supplies and spare metal to practice on. I am also considering spending the money a rotisserie as well, for I have already managed to get few necessary tools like wheel dollies, engine lift, engine stand, engine cart, floor jack, heavy duty jack stands, and various hand tools. I hoping to get as much of the body work done myself. I grant, there will always be things beyond my skill level, but I am trying to learn enough to work on my own projects. 

Ironically, I was talking to my body shop guy, and discovered I can expect to pay $1,000 or more each to replace a quarter panel, another $1,000 to replace/patch trunk, and $1,000-$2,000 for all the other patches/repairs. That does not count assembly, blocking, priming, painting, etc....that is just rust/damage repair. Heck, I asked about a patch on a floor of a Mustang (where I had the car stripped down) and was told to expect close to $1,000 for a small patch. I definitely need to learn at least the basics of body work.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Just ask away on here any number of guys that can walk you through almost anything. It really is just a matter of reading, listening, practicing and applying what you learn, and every time you will get a little better and see what works best. I'm a terrible welder with crappy equipment but i'm a hell of a grinder and filler...:eek2:

Practice on the trunk pans (long seams = lotta stich welds) and by the time you get to the patches you will be a pro. 

I was lucky enough to have a rot free body but i got a deal (100) on a "scrap" GTO hood, had been gone at like a can opener but at least they had not stretched the skin. Figured it would be good practice and so what if i ruined it for 100.00.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

"Ironically, I was talking to my body shop guy, and discovered I can expect to pay "$1,000 or more each to replace a quarter panel, another $1,000 to replace/patch trunk, and $1,000-$2,000 for all the other patches/repairs. That does not count assembly, blocking, priming, painting, etc....that is just rust/damage repair. Heck, I asked about a patch on a floor of a Mustang (where I had the car stripped down) and was told to expect close to $1,000 for a small patch. I definitely need to learn at least the basics of body work."


And this is why we are motivated to do it ourselves even if we have to spend the money and time (and sometimes repeat after we screw it up) to learn!!! I began my long time interest in working on old cars by necessity because as a young struggling guy with little money, I had the mechanical ability to tear things apart and get them back together when my old worn out ride broke down. Then I got into the "need for speed" and the rest is history.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

So your at 5000+ for fab work, add in another 5-8 for blocking, paint and re-assembly, probably more in california. 

For a few grand in tools you can set yourself up to do most all of it yourself. I did all the body prime and prep in my garage then rented some booth time from the local HS for a couple hundred bucks to lay on the color and clear, money went to support the "car club", so it was a win, win. Shop teacher broke out a new Iwata quick cup gun for me to use and let me have at it on a saturday while he tinkered around. Probably had 2,500 into primer, paint and materials, and a few hundred hours into getting the body prepped and ready for paint. Once you get over the initial fear of messing it up, the actual painting is about 10% of the process. Then you add in another long afternoon or two of buffing it out, a few more of re-mounting all the trim and putting the interior back in. Took just under a year to complete and i was lucky enough to have a rock solid body that only needed frame on and went back close enough to the original color that i only had to scuff and spray over the jambs.

No one said it was easy but the 10,000 savings can go along way in other areas, and mean the difference between getting it done and letting it sit and languish in pieces for years until funds allow. I have a fox body mustang project in the shop ready to go back together as soon as the icebergs thaw and i am starting to get pumped up about doing the paint on that now, should be a piece of cake compared to doing the huge A-body.


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## mrvandermey (Jun 15, 2011)

Hi guys, well mathematically speaking, I am liking the idea more and more to purchase a few tools, including a welding machine, supplies, some cutting tools, etc. I am feeling a little more confident on welding things like the trunk pan or patch panels on the floor pan. I am even thinking filling in the few small pin holes on the door and lower front fender may be within my ability. 

Question, is there any specific body work that really should be left to the pros? I mean, the quarter panels still intimidate me a bit. In my opinion, the driver side quarter panel seems like it just needs a patch( a healthy patch, but a patch); whereas the passenger side seems like it might benefit more from a full quarter replacement. Since I do not have the experience, I have know idea whether either or both quarters can be better repaired by utilizing patch panels or replacement skins, of if I should just plan on replacing entire quarter? I am not really sure how the quarters are attached or where the spot welds are.


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