# '68 Ram Air convertible value



## Damon (Feb 16, 2018)

hello all,

I'm new to this site and was wondering if anyone knows somebody on here that knows values of GTO's? In short I acquired a '68 GTO from an estate sale. The owner's son that I purchased the vehicle from said his father was a GTO guy and was in process of frame on restoring the car. I purchased the car and long story short once I received the PHS report, to my luck the car turned out to be a Ram Air 1 car. I know the car is extremely rare but don't know where to place it in terms of value. I'm more of a Camaro guy. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Damon


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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

Value will depend on condition and how many of the original parts are with the car.
Manual trans?
Original 4 bolt 9792506 block?
Original 31 heads?
Original carb and exhaust manifolds?
Original transmission?
Is the 4.33 axle still with the car?

Photos will help.
I am becoming familiar with these cars and might be able to provide some additional info after viewing some pics... 

In 68, there were two Ram Air engines produced. The Ram Air (I) cars were D Port cylinder heads and were produced up to mid May. In late May the D Port engine was discontinued and replaced with Pontiac's first round port cylinder head (Ram Air II). The manual trans round port cars received the famous "041" camshaft which was later used in the RA IV engines. The RA II cars are even more rare than the earlier models and are the most valuable cars from that year. Even so, Ram Air I cars are quite valuable still. A convertible 4 speed model in excellent condition might sell somewhere around $100k if all the specific parts are still with the car.


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## Damon (Feb 16, 2018)

Thanks for the reply. Car is a Verdoro green, black interior. 4-speed, well optioned car.

Has the 9792506 block. Not really sure about the heads. What id makes them 31 heads? Not sure about carb or manifolds either. Pretty sure it does have the 4.33 rear. I'll have to do some research on where to find these numbers. 

Few phone pics I have...


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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

31 heads would look just like your 16 heads with a 31 cast in place of the 16 on the center two exhaust ports. The cast marks resembles a 37 so it's easy to mis-read the numbers.

There are some 31 heads on eBay right now that come with intake, carb and exhaust manifolds. The buy it now of $3500 seems reasonable but you may only need the heads....the carb in that listing is for an automatic if I remember correctly...

4 speed makes the car more valuable and easier to sell later.

9792506 block is great to have. Does the Engine Unit Number match what is shown on your PHS docs? Does your engine block have a partial VIN stamped vertically on the face next to the timing chain cover? Those are the two ways to match the block to your car.

My car is Verdoro Green as well. Black interior and black top. Also a 4 speed. I do not have the original RA II engine though. Could be a $200k car when correctly restored but I figure a 20% loss in value without the original engine....or there abouts....value is subjective and the market varies some.

The axle should have a ZL stamp on the back of the LH axle tube. 

68 Ram Air cars are total sleepers. No stickers or badging anywhere to advertise what it is. All ram air GTOs in 67-68 had the 4.33 axle. Your car should have the M21 close ratio trans.

Would like some photos of your carb. I might be able to help determine if it is correct for your car. 

Nice car. Hopefully you got a good deal on it. 

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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

What is the cast date of that block? Can you post a photo of your cowl tag? That engine unit number is the earliest that I have seen....your car might be a very early build.

Until just about 5-6 months ago....my car was the earliest known round port GTO produced (May 27th) but since that time another deuce GTO has surfaced that was built several days earlier. So now my car is the second earliest known GTO deuce....still the earliest convertible though. There is a possibility that my car is the first round port convertible built but I would have to see the Firebird registry before making such a claim. EUN for my car was 655492, very early number for a deuce. 

I presume the EUN is a sequential type serial number assigned to each engine after they were assembled at the Engine assembly plant in Michigan. All engines were assembled at the single location and then allocated to each of Pontiac' s final assembly plants around the country.

The Billing History Card for 68 usually shows the Engine and Transmission unit numbers but not always. Curious to see what your BHC looks like.

My BHC has a handwritten note for billing adjustment for the RA II engine. That same note appears on some of the early Firebird deuces but so far my car is the only GTO BHC with that same adjustment note. Just some trivia....

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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Cool to see another '68 RA convert surface! Typically 31 casting cyl heads are in the under 2k range a pair as nice vatted and magnafluxed cores. Have owned two sets, one came with a complete set of nos valve springs. 

Matts current eBay auction includes longbranch RA manifolds (Firebird HO and RA as well as 390 horse 428 B series). Also, a L of 77 dated intake (believe I have one same date), as well as an SR 7028276 Qjet, which there are a Bunch out there, have one from the monster Rochestor plant buyout in '96.


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## Damon (Feb 16, 2018)

Car looks like it was built 1st week of November '67. From what info I gathered online, the block was cast in October but for '67 was September? I don't know. This Pontiac stuff is all foreign to me lol. The number on pad stamped adjacent to timing cover looks like it matches the vin on tag riveted to top of drivers side dash but I haven't checked the frame. I haven't had time to check numbers on carb, rear end or 4-speed, in the process of moving. It does have a posi as I had the car jacked up and checked that and got a quick reference of the gearing and it's definitely over 4.00. Thanks again for your help.


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## Damon (Feb 16, 2018)

How often do the 31 heads pop up on Ebay or this site? Thanks for the reply.


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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

From what I can tell so far it looks like you may have the original engine. I don't think the partial VIN was stamped on the engines until 1968 but I suppose some plants may habe started that a year early? Not sure on that one. Will need some input from anyone familiar when partial VIN stamping actually began.

Body assembly begin first week of Nov. The car might have been completed the next week.....good clue would be the invoice date on your PHS docs. I would say the cast date of the Engine block is Oct 17. Not aware of skipping any alphabet characters for block dates so J should be the 10th month as far as I know.

Nice car. Looks like a pretty nice project to pick up where the previous owner left bbq off. Always tough to take on an unfinished project but that one you have there is one worth doing.

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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

Damon said:


> How often do the 31 heads pop up on Ebay or this site? Thanks for the reply.


I think I have seen 2 or 3 sets for sale in the last 3 years or so. However, I haven't been hunting so I don't know for sure.

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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Damon said:


> Car looks like it was built 1st week of November '67. From what info I gathered online, the block was cast in October but for '67 was September? I don't know. This Pontiac stuff is all foreign to me lol. The number on pad stamped adjacent to timing cover looks like it matches the vin on tag riveted to top of drivers side dash but I haven't checked the frame. I haven't had time to check numbers on carb, rear end or 4-speed, in the process of moving. It does have a posi as I had the car jacked up and checked that and got a quick reference of the gearing and it's definitely over 4.00. Thanks again for your help.



The change over in models is said to be August. So the November dated 1967 block, "J" cast, is a 1968 engine. For 1968 (which began in 1967), the blocks also got the casting number placed on the shelf behind the #8 cylinder where the bell housing bolts up. VIN numbers were mandated to be stamped on the 1968 and up cars, so being it was a 1968 model, it should have the partial VIN as you noted.


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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

PontiacJim said:


> The change over in models is said to be August. So the November dated 1967 block, "J" cast, is a 1968 engine. For 1968 (which began in 1967), the blocks also got the casting number placed on the shelf behind the #8 cylinder where the bell housing bolts up. VIN numbers were mandated to be stamped on the 1968 and up cars, so being it was a 1968 model, it should have the partial VIN as you noted.


Thanks Jim. I got confused there for a bit and forgot we are looking at a 68 model year car. Makes complete sense there would be a partial VIN here. 

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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

"J" would be October though....wouldnt it?


PontiacJim said:


> The change over in models is said to be August. So the November dated 1967 block, "J" cast, is a 1968 engine. For 1968 (which began in 1967), the blocks also got the casting number placed on the shelf behind the #8 cylinder where the bell housing bolts up. VIN numbers were mandated to be stamped on the 1968 and up cars, so being it was a 1968 model, it should have the partial VIN as you noted.


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Shake-N-Bake said:


> "J" would be October though....wouldnt it?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Yes. 

reading Jim's previous response... 400 block casting numbers also transitioned from up near the distributor hole to running down the flange area of the block during the '67 model year. Have owned '67 YS & WT engines cast both ways.


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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

Pinion head said:


> Yes.
> 
> reading Jim's previous response... 400 block casting numbers also transitioned from up near the distributor hole to running down the flange area of the block during the '67 model year. Have owned '67 YS & WT engines cast both ways.


Interesting. I didn't know the 1967 400 blocks changed the location of the 9786133 number. Thought they all were up by the distributor. 

Any idea about when that change may have occurred? I know this question doesn't pertain to the OP's car but I am just curious about these things. The first 9792510 block has a cast date of April 27 1967 and it's cast number is on the rear pad behind #8 . I wonder if that was about the same time when the 6133 number was moved to that location?

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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Shake-N-Bake said:


> "J" would be October though....wouldnt it?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Yep, as you and Pinion head pointed out, my bad.

The block casting numbers as Pinion head pointed out were first cast near the distributor with the distributor hole taking out a couple numbers. This was later changed to the shelf area behind #8 cylinder. I cannot recall what months this transition began in 1967 as to where the casting number was located, but Pinion head is correct, depending on what part of the year the block was cast, there would be an overlap and you will find the same block letter codes having different casting number locations.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

For a Chevy guy to end up with this caliber of car.....what a deal! Thank you for sharing your new treasure with us, it is one hell of a car. My guess is that once you start driving it, you will become a Pontiac convert!!! NEAT CAR!


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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

geeteeohguy said:


> For a Chevy guy to end up with this caliber of car.....what a deal! Thank you for sharing your new treasure with us, it is one hell of a car. My guess is that once you start driving it, you will become a Pontiac convert!!! NEAT CAR!


Agreed. The OP sure picked a heck of a First Pontiac to own for sure! Many lifelong Pontiac enthusiasts have dreamed of wandering into such a purchase. Even better that it appears the previous owner was doing a great job with the build vs coming across a basket case (like my situation...).


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Shake-N-Bake said:


> Interesting. I didn't know the 1967 400 blocks changed the location of the 9786133 number. Thought they all were up by the distributor.
> 
> Any idea about when that change may have occurred? I know this question doesn't pertain to the OP's car but I am just curious about these things. The first 9792510 block has a cast date of April 27 1967 and it's cast number is on the rear pad behind [URL=http://www.gtoforum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=8]#8 [/URL] . I wonder if that was about the same time when the 6133 number was moved to that location?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


This was covered in another post. This is my brother's 1967 "assumed" GTO block as it has the correct dated 670 heads to go with the block. Pic #1 The casting number 9786133 is at the block shelf behind #8 cylinder. Pic #2 is the casting date up by the distributor. Pic#3 shows the block stamped with a "P" for Pontiac. No other codes as it was a replacement block (or possibly an engine). It is not until 1968 the replacement blocks were supposed to have the "SR" letters stamped in as well as the original car's VIN restamped on it, either factory or by the dealership.


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## Damon (Feb 16, 2018)

Thanks guys for all the help. I still haven't had time to look at numbers on rear, 4-speed or the carb. Moving sucks! I'll definitely do that as soon as I'm settled in. Yeah I had no idea what the car was when I bought it. It's definitely my first time getting this lucky! Well I did buy a Camaro that I found about $2 in change under the back seat lol. When I bought the car, I figured the value was where a standard convertible would be with a little more value because of the 4 speed. I figured I would just finish off where the previous owner left off, cruise it a bit and sell. I don't know what I will do now. It's a pretty unique car. I do have a lots going on though so we'll see. Thanks again everyone for their time.


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## Damon (Feb 16, 2018)

So finally somewhat settled in after move. Had a chance to verify rear end.


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