# 4/5 Speed Conversion



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I see a few of you who seem to think a 4/5 speed conversion should not be at high cost. WRONG, this is not 1975 anymore.

So in order to price up a conversion, going from automatic to 4/5 speed, you need all the parts. So make up a parts list for yourself, search the internet or your favorite transmission supplier, and add it all up yourself - that'll give you a base number for parts alone and then decide if you will do the work or farm it out. The conversion is not inexpensive. So lets list some parts you will need to price out.

Transmission - 4/5 speed and whatever make, new, rebuilt, used.
Bell housing, clutch fork, clutch boot - possibly offset alignment pins to square up the bell-to-trans.
Flywheel - aftermarket steel, not the factory cast iron piece.
Pressure plate, clutch, throw-out bearing, pilot bearing/bushing - 10.5", 11", course/find spline.
Bolts - trans to bell, flywheel to crank, pressure plate.
Clutch pedals, pedal pads, clutch linkages (all of them) springs, rubber bumper, for your application. (may have issues with headers)
Hydraulic throw-out bearing set-up if you choose that route.
Transmission shifter/linkage for 4-speeds, possible shifter if 5-speed to fit some applications.
Manual transmission "shifter porch" and rubber boot/retainer ring if no console.
Floor modification - TKO.
Transmission console if you choose to use one.
Steering column if going from column shift to floor shift.
New rug.
Transmission rear yoke to match output spline of trans - may or may not be needed.
Speedo cable or adapter for the TKO.
Driveshaft - may fit as is, or may need cut down/new driveshaft depending on transmission.
Transmission crossmember - may be able to use/modify factory unit or purchase aftermarket.
Transmission mount.
Back-up light switch/wiring on some cars - optional.
Transmission fluid - type used for your trans.
Dial indicator IF going Tremec 5-speed to square up bell housing to input shaft - or do trans damage.
Inclinometer to get/check driveshaft angle for correct pinion angles.

Shipping charges and maybe applicable taxes.

Rear gear change - might need this depending on transmission 1st gear ratio AND your overdrive ratio if going OD.

I think that covers most of it, but I may have missed a few items.

Now price out the above and post your numbers.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I too have been seeing a lot of this lately, and as you know, I'm in the middle of the process myself. I got a quote for $5k (for the new TKX, no floor mods, better shifting) from MDL, and apples to apples, American Powertrain was $350 more for the same stuff.

To me, $5k is reasonable for an all-inclusive kit, which will likely take a single day to install, without chasing parts. That being said, two days ago, I did some forensic math and looked to see if money could be saved. Coincidentally, the topic came up yesterday, and potentially pushy salesman, were discussed. On that note, yes both MDL and AP were pushing and quoting a hydraulic clutch and throwout bearing and a high-end clutch, pressure plate, and flywheel. Just those parts added $1500 to the job.

The TKX would not require new carpet or a different console, so if you were to do the same conversion, using the OEM GTO linkage and OEM clutch and flywheel, yes, you could save "a lot" of money.

However, this is very subjective, because to me, $1500 isnt a lot of money, when considering the upgraded quality and ease of install. So yes, I don't have the extra $1500, but I do think that it's worth finding it. Especially if the job is going on a credit card, anyway.

As for the Muncie conversion route, I exhausted that and it's definitely not cheaper. Muncie prices are up, it requires welding the floor, new carpet, a one year console (for 67)... Maybe it would be $200 cheaper.

IMO, anyone looking to do this on a budget, should buy the trans, store it, and then start collecting the other parts as money permits. I saw no company giving a discount for buying it all at once.


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Seeing your list PJ will make you run and hide lol. I was discussing it with army on another thread, we were looking at 5k. I have the M40 now and was looking at either the 200 4R or the tremec route. I like the tremec option and I understand the headaches of the switch over


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

pontrc said:


> Seeing your list PJ will make you run and hide lol. I was discussing it with army on another thread, we were looking at 5k. I have the M40 now and was looking at either the 200 4R or the tremec route. I like the tremec option and I understand the headaches of the switch over


I suppose that there are many "clutch/ flywheel" fanatics, who insist on or are required to use top shelf stuff, but I've always used oem spec Luk stuff, with great results, and you can literally save close to $1000 right there... but even with my suggestion to do that, and use the manual clutch vs. the hydraulic, you'd now have to weld a tab on the frame, allowing for the zbar, which typically requires fender removal... So right there, that's a ton of aggravation.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I really wanted a five speed when I put the car together and luckily mine was set up for a stick already but I didn't want to have to cut up the floor since the interior was done so I spent 3000.00 on a custom four speed and 600.00 on a shifter and linkage, so now this new TKX is intriguing but is it going to be any better than my trans since I'm not racing it but maybe once to see what kind of times this car has in it, so the only other benefit is I drop the cruising ratio from 1:1 to .68 but I'm also not going cross country. So I see it's longer so I have to get the drive shaft shortened and would my stick just bolt to the top loader? and what about the shifter location in my console, I see they have two positions forward and back so if I need it in a custom position for a '65 that probably is more money, Jegs has the TKX for 2795.00 plus tax so idk if it's worth it just for bragging or people looking inside to see a five speed shifter ball....to bad they didn't come out with this about three years ago I would have jumped on it, maybe after I get a paint job and have nothing better to do with my money I'll consider it


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

I'm champing at the bit to add a pedal to my car as well. Back before these all inclusive kits were on the market I scoured the yards and got a pedal assembly, z-bar and linkage, bell housing and clutch fork and manual crossmember out of a donor car. I was going to go for a Muncie swap. Could not get the manual linkage to fit with my headers during a mock up and could not find all the necessary new bushings etc for the pedal assembly...so I abandoned the project. 

Now, that is all available as a one-stop-shop, which is great and I'd need to use the hydraulic throwout bearing, but boy does that add the expensive. 

I've recently read that one potentially HUGE barrier is whether or not the crank in your engine (in cars that are automatics) is milled for a manual application. This apparently has implications for acccepting the input shaft of a manual trans AND the pilot bearing. Any way to tell before things are pulled apart and anyone have experience with this issue? I'd hate to buy a kit, get it all apart then find out the crankshaft needs milling to mate with a manual trans.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

From what I understand, it's extremely rare to have a crank without the appropriate provision, but I'll let an expert chime in. My 67 will take the zbar, without issue, and I'll likely add an access hatch to weld the frame tab, if I chose to favor the zbar over the hydraulic.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> From what I understand, it's extremely rare to have a crank without the appropriate provision, but I'll let an expert chime in. My 67 will take the zbar, without issue, and I'll likely add an access hatch to weld the frame tab, if I chose to favor the zbar over the hydraulic.


Yep, most cranks will be drilled, BUT, not all. So that too has to be considered just in case you have my kind of luck and get that 1 in 250,000 that wasn't drilled. 

Basically, you could see 5k-6K fairly easy in parts doing a swap, plus labor (yours or their's), less any rear end gear changes. You just have to be honest going into it and not even consider cost and do it because that is what you want. Same goes with an automatic, either factory or an aftermarket OD automatic. If you like to shift fast and run your car hard, having an automatic with a nice slam bang manual control shift application can also be a lot of fun. You can have the same control as shifting gears and that same hard tire chirping gear change without the clutch - but if it makes you feel better, install the clutch pedal with a good heavy return spring and freak out your buddies as you speed shift each gear slamming that clutch pedal to the floor each time. Guarantee most would never figure that one out and be amazed at your lightning speed shifting abilities........and might even want you to show them how to do it!


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

I had one my very first. 69 442 , bought a 350 block no provision for a pilot bearing. It was a factory 4 speed car so we had to change the crank😡


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Yep, most cranks will be drilled, BUT, not all. So that too has to be considered just in case you have my kind of luck and get that 1 in 250,000 that wasn't drilled.
> 
> Basically, you could see 5k-6K fairly easy in parts doing a swap, plus labor (yours or their's), less any rear end gear changes. You just have to be honest going into it and not even consider cost and do it because that is what you want. Same goes with an automatic, either factory or an aftermarket OD automatic. If you like to shift fast and run your car hard, having an automatic with a nice slam bang manual control shift application can also be a lot of fun. You can have the same control as shifting gears and that same hard tire chirping gear change without the clutch - but if it makes you feel better, install the clutch pedal with a good heavy return spring and freak out your buddies as you speed shift each gear slamming that clutch pedal to the floor each time. Guarantee most would never figure that one out and be amazed at your lightning speed shifting abilities........and might even want you to show them how to do it!


 Jim you crack me up. Yes it makes me feel better to have a clutch. It makes me feel like part of the car like no paddle shift can. My tractor will only shift on the fly in fifth gear and my wife will not let me mow everyday. So I need another outlet. I havent figure how to put all my kids on a motorcycle all at once.And I don't have much child free time. So I better put some my 40K budget on my 5k car for a T56. It make as much sense as paying 2k for 1970s after market audio equipment for my car. fade to to the first gen Pioneer super tuner and TSX-30 speakers. It doesnt have to make sense does it? My farm is pretty well the same story.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> You just have to be honest going into it and not even consider cost and do it because that is what you want.


This is really it in a nutshell, but it's not all so bad. Most of us have ten's of thousands into our rides (or past ones), so much that it's incalculable, because it was all nickel and dimed. So, approach the manual, the same way. When you have an extra $400, buy the clutch and flywheel... a week later, get the hardware... a month later, get the linkages.

Regardless of how you do it, it'll be what you want when it's done. Sounds like its almost worth pulling the trans before ordering. If I had to pull the crank, I would skip the idea.


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## ylwgto (Oct 27, 2009)

PontiacJim said:


> in case you have my kind of luck and get that 1 in 250,000 that wasn't drilled.


That's my luck too...

I dream of dumping the clutch in the car! My B&M ratchet shifter is cool, but doesn't cut it for me and I basically pretend its a manual the way I drive the car.

My TH400 is sickly, I think. Something is amiss with shift points and no more hard, tire chirping shifts. Big bummer. So rather than dumpiong $ into it I'm trying to justify a manual conversion. This crank thing is a worry for me though...


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

ylwgto said:


> That's my luck too...
> 
> I dream of dumping the clutch in the car! My B&M ratchet shifter is cool, but doesn't cut it for me and I basically pretend its a manual the way I drive the car.
> 
> My TH400 is sickly, I think. Something is amiss with shift points and no more hard, tire chirping shifts. Big bummer. So rather than dumpiong $ into it I'm trying to justify a manual conversion. This crank thing is a worry for me though...


As for the TH400... Expect a post tomorrow. Long story, short, brand new $10 modulator was bad, less than one week old. Dont trust new parts!!!!


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## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

ylwgto said:


> That's my luck too...
> 
> I dream of dumping the clutch in the car! My B&M ratchet shifter is cool, but doesn't cut it for me and I basically pretend its a manual the way I drive the car.
> 
> My TH400 is sickly, I think. Something is amiss with shift points and no more hard, tire chirping shifts. Big bummer. So rather than dumpiong $ into it I'm trying to justify a manual conversion. *This crank thing is a worry for me though..*.


It's rare...._really_ rare.


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

ylwgto said:


> That's my luck too...
> 
> I dream of dumping the clutch in the car! My B&M ratchet shifter is cool, but doesn't cut it for me and I basically pretend its a manual the way I drive the car.
> 
> My TH400 is sickly, I think. Something is amiss with shift points and no more hard, tire chirping shifts. Big bummer. So rather than dumpiong $ into it I'm trying to justify a manual conversion. This crank thing is a worry for me though...


My situation was the Olds block. Which it was a 2 barrel 350 with a 2 speed st 300 which olds called it the jetway. The 442 had a 400 which the block was cracked, mated to the Muncie. I did not understand the reasoning for no pilot provision. But as I read in articles later any thing the factory could do to cut costs they would. Hopefully in a 400 they thought to provision it especially going in a GTO. I wish you luck ylwgto


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

My stepdad use to pour transmission fluid in the quadrajet of his mid 70s cutlass to loosen the lifters, talking about a bug spray out the exhaust lol


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

pontrc said:


> My stepdad use to pour transmission fluid in the quadrajet of his mid 70s cutlass to loosen the lifters, talking about a bug spray out the exhaust lol


In my scientific mind, I can't see that ever reaching the lifters, however, I used to run Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel, for top end lube.


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## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

pontrc said:


> My stepdad use to pour transmission fluid in the quadrajet of his mid 70s cutlass to loosen the lifters, talking about a bug spray out the exhaust lol





armyadarkness said:


> In my scientific mind, I can't see that ever reaching the lifters, however, I used to run Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel, for top end lube.


A cup or 2 of ATF in your oil will clean out your lifters. Marvel works as well.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Mine'sa66 said:


> A cup or 2 of ATF in your oil will clean out your lifters. Marvel works as well.


I used to add a quart before doing an oil change on my "older" cars. Just let it idle at low speed and get warmed up and drain and change the filter. However, keep in mind you could also be loosening up crud that could then cause things to plug up, so don't go excessive, just use a small amount this time as *Mine'sa66 *stated. I still do this by adding 1/2 quart ATF to my 2015 Hyundai every so often as the variable timing works off of oil pressure and from what I read, the hole that supplies the oil is very small in diameter and if it gets plugged up, the timing will be erratic and it's time for a shop. ATF is cheaper than shop labor. 

I have also used Slick 50 back in the day with good results, and Rislone oil additive saved an engine once that ran slap out of oil and didn't have enough to operate the hydraulic lifters cause the engine to quit! Filled it back up with oil and drove it another year. LOL


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Mine'sa66 said:


> A cup or 2 of ATF in your oil will clean out your lifters. Marvel works as well.


That I knew, I just didn't know how it got to the lifters, through the carb! I'm


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> I used to add a quart before doing an oil change on my "older" cars. Just let it idle at low speed and get warmed up and drain and change the filter. However, keep in mind you could also be loosening up crud that could then cause things to plug up, so don't go excessive, just use a small amount this time as *Mine'sa66 *stated. I still do this by adding 1/2 quart ATF to my 2015 Hyundai every so often as the variable timing works off of oil pressure and from what I read, the hole that supplies the oil is very small in diameter and if it gets plugged up, the timing will be erratic and it's time for a shop. ATF is cheaper than shop labor.
> 
> I have also used Slick 50 back in the day with good results, and Rislone oil additive saved an engine once that ran slap out of oil and didn't have enough to operate the hydraulic lifters cause the engine to quit! Filled it back up with oil and drove it another year. LOL


big Marvel Mystery oil fan. I buy it by the gallon, and I use it regularly, especially on firearms. I had a Toyota with one of those small orifice oil switches, and I ran Marvel in it. It cured the issue.


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## Mine'sa66 (Oct 30, 2019)

armyadarkness said:


> That I knew, I just didn't know how it got to the lifters, through the carb!


I was just trying to pass the tip on. Yes, there's not a pathway from intake to lifters. I'm figuring pontrc just mispoke. Pouring some ATF down the throat can have many curative properties. It's also whatever I do if I got one that's not getting started for a long while.


PontiacJim said:


> I used to add a quart before doing an oil change on my "older" cars. Just let it idle at low speed and get warmed up and drain and change the filter. However, keep in mind you could also be loosening up crud that could then cause things to plug up, so don't go excessive, just use a small amount this time as *Mine'sa66 *stated. I still do this by adding 1/2 quart ATF to my 2015 Hyundai every so often as the variable timing works off of oil pressure and from what I read, the hole that supplies the oil is very small in diameter and if it gets plugged up, the timing will be erratic and it's time for a shop. ATF is cheaper than shop labor.
> 
> I have also used Slick 50 back in the day with good results, and Rislone oil additive saved an engine once that ran slap out of oil and didn't have enough to operate the hydraulic lifters cause the engine to quit! Filled it back up with oil and drove it another year. LOL


Yes sir, if this is an old cruddy engine, that ATF is going to do a number. If that's what anybody adding ATF to, then stay by that thing while you run it, so you can hear if the pickup/filter get plugged by crud.
Be cautious in your (or any) VVT engine. You are right on in that they need to be kept clean, but at the same time are extremely sensitive to viscosity. Also the internals of some VVT solenoids are sensitive to a wide array of chemicals. That is why you'll find so many VVT engine makers are so specific about oil and intervals.
Slick 50 is great stuff.


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Mine'sa66 said:


> I was just trying to pass the tip on. Yes, there's not a pathway from intake to lifters. I'm figuring pontrc just mispoke. Pouring some ATF down the throat can have many curative properties. It's also whatever I do if I got one that's not getting started for a long while.
> 
> Yes sir, if this is an old cruddy engine, that ATF is going to do a number. If that's what anybody adding ATF to, then stay by that thing while you run it, so you can hear if the pickup/filter get plugged by crud.
> Be cautious in your (or any) VVT engine. You are right on in that they need to be kept clean, but at the same time are extremely sensitive to viscosity. Also the internals of some VVT solenoids are sensitive to a wide array of chemicals. That is why you'll find so many VVT engine makers are so specific about oil and intervals.
> Slick 50 is great stuff.


Yes I was only 15 at the time he was doing this, and I think the only thing it accomplished was to kill bugs for 2 days lol. But he did teach me basic tune up procedures and brake jobs and so on. My real dad the one who owned 2 GTOS did not know the difference from a box wrench from and open end 😳


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

pontrc said:


> Yes I was only 15 at the time he was doing this, and I think the only thing it accomplished was to kill bugs for 2 days lol. But he did teach me basic tune up procedures and brake jobs and so on. My real dad the one who owned 2 GTOS did not know the difference from a box wrench from and open end 😳


Yeah when you're young, the world is a different place. I only questioned it because I was afraid that I was missing a performance tip! Lol.


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## twotone '64 (Jun 2, 2012)

So getting back to the 4 speed conversion questions....
Does anyone know how to locate the weld-on tab for the Z bar on a '64??


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## 65sohc (Aug 13, 2019)

My 65 had a TKO 600 when I bought it a year ago with an American Powertrain White Lightning shifter. The shifter handle is about 10 inches long with a mild rearward bend. It looks pretty similar to the OE handle. My issue is I don't like the way it feels. Compared to modern cars the throw is excessively long which I think is directly related to the length of the handle. I have tried various handles but have yet to find one that is placed in an ergonomically correct position and offers short, crisp throws. Does anyone have a suggestion? The bolt pattern for the White Lightning shifter is the same as for the typical Hurst stick.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

65sohc said:


> My 65 had a TKO 600 when I bought it a year ago with an American Powertrain White Lightning shifter. The shifter handle is about 10 inches long with a mild rearward bend. It looks pretty similar to the OE handle. My issue is I don't like the way it feels. Compared to modern cars the throw is excessively long which I think is directly related to the length of the handle. I have tried various handles but have yet to find one that is placed in an ergonomically correct position and offers short, crisp throws. Does anyone have a suggestion? The bolt pattern for the White Lightning shifter is the same as for the typical Hurst stick.


Longer handle will affect a longer throw and it can add leverage to the shifter mechanics and probably needs a shifter with stops - but I am just guessing on this one. You did not say if you have a shifter console? 

I searched around, and there seems to be a number of short throw shifters that can be bought and installed - this will reduce movement, not necessarily the shifter handle by itself. But the problem may be shifter handle length and shape *if* you have the console. If you just have a floor boot, then your options may be more open.

If you have a floor boot set-up, then you may just have to purchase a Hurst stick and then heat it to get an angle you like. If you have a console, same thing, you may have to heat/bend the arm as it comes out of the console to retain the fit within the console opening. Some of the Mopar bench seat shifters might be of interest and I believe they already have a bend towards the driver side and may work with a floor boot, and not the console.

I have the TKO600 and my plan is to use a floor boot and the really short Hurst Competition Plus shift arm and T-handle. But, I am a tall guy and have long arms so it should not be an issue. I like the Mopar pistol grip shifters, but it just isn't Pontiac, so T-handle over a simple black/white shift ball for me.


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## An0maly_76 (Dec 25, 2021)

Not sure whether these would be any easier to find or how well they would hold up, but the 78-86 Malibu / LeMans / Bonneville / Cutlass and El Camino had a 4-speed manual option, some with the 301 Pontiac, 260 / 307 Oldsmobile, and Buick 198 / 231 / 252 / 350. Don't overlook the wagons, I've seen one of those with a 4-speed manual too. I have to wonder if even some Regals and Centurys had this manual option, as some 1979 Cutlasses even got factory 5-speed manuals.

I believe most, if not all of those 5-speeds were behind 260 Oldsmobiles, which would make the bellhousing BOPC, and A and G-bodies are known to interchange some things. The rear-drive Sunbird / Monza / Skyhawk / Starfire were also available with manuals, most with Buick V6 variants, which would be BOPC. Back then, the 231 Buick had a little brother and a bigger brother- the 198 and 252 I mentioned, aka the 3.2L and 4.1L, they were BOPC pattern also. When boneyard hunting, this 4.1 is not to be confused with the 4100 HT Cadillac V-8. And don't overlook 79-81 Firebirds, they were available with manuals and had at least one Pontiac V-8, the 301, there was also a 265, but I believe that was a bowtie engine.

I also seem to remember Pontiac's Iron Duke (supposedly half of a 389?) being in a number of 82-91 S-10s using the moniker Tech4, which may have retained the BOPC bellhousing as well. I don't remember if the Quad-4s (different engine) were used in any RWD applications, but early ones, at least, may have retained the BOPC pattern, as they were technically Oldsmobile or Pontiac. I saw one swapped into a 1991 S-10 with a 5-speed, which fortifies the idea that the Tech4 and Quad-4 may have retained the BOPC pattern in that era. Perhaps this is info that would help someone.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

An0maly_76 said:


> Not sure whether these would be any easier to find or how well they would hold up, but the 78-86 Malibu / LeMans / Bonneville / Cutlass and El Camino had a 4-speed manual option, some with the 301 Pontiac, 260 / 307 Oldsmobile, and Buick 198 / 231 / 252 / 350. Don't overlook the wagons, I've seen one of those with a 4-speed manual too. I have to wonder if even some Regals and Centurys had this manual option, as some 1979 Cutlasses even got factory 5-speed manuals.
> 
> I believe most, if not all of those 5-speeds were behind 260 Oldsmobiles, which would make the bellhousing BOPC, and A and G-bodies are known to interchange some things. The rear-drive Sunbird / Monza / Skyhawk / Starfire were also available with manuals, most with Buick V6 variants, which would be BOPC. Back then, the 231 Buick had a little brother and a bigger brother- the 198 and 252 I mentioned, aka the 3.2L and 4.1L, they were BOPC pattern also. When boneyard hunting, this 4.1 is not to be confused with the 4100 HT Cadillac V-8. And don't overlook 79-81 Firebirds, they were available with manuals and had at least one Pontiac V-8, the 301, there was also a 265, but I believe that was a bowtie engine.
> 
> I also seem to remember Pontiac's Iron Duke (supposedly half of a 389?) being in a number of 82-91 S-10s using the moniker Tech4, which may have retained the BOPC bellhousing as well. I don't remember if the Quad-4s (different engine) were used in any RWD applications, but early ones, at least, may have retained the BOPC pattern, as they were technically Oldsmobile or Pontiac. I saw one swapped into a 1991 S-10 with a 5-speed, which fortifies the idea that the Tech4 and Quad-4 may have retained the BOPC pattern in that era. Perhaps this is info that would help someone.


I was unaware of any post 1978 Chevelle style cars having a manual. And since I was a fan and enthusiast, Im surprised that I never saw one. That being said, even if those cars you mentioned did have a manual, they're all about as rare as dinosaurs now.

Unless someone outright gives you a donor car, the only way to save any "real money" on a swap is the trans itself, and maybe you could save $500 at best. But for that $500, youd be giving up a ton of strength, reliability, and over drive (in most cases)


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## An0maly_76 (Dec 25, 2021)

armyadarkness said:


> I was unaware of any post 1978 Chevelle style cars having a manual. And since I was a fan and enthusiast, Im surprised that I never saw one. That being said, even if those cars you mentioned did have a manual, they're all about as rare as dinosaurs now.
> 
> Unless someone outright gives you a donor car, the only way to save any "real money" on a swap is the trans itself, and maybe you could save $500 at best. But for that $500, youd be giving up a ton of strength, reliability, and over drive (in most cases)


They weren't plentiful, but it was offered. The original owner's manual for the 1978 Malibu that almost became my first car showed 3 and 4-speed manual options as well as the weakling 3-speed 200-C automatic. And you never know where you might find one. There are still a few of these cars sitting in people's backyards and such. I've actually seen a factory-built '81 Malibu station wagon with a 200 V-6 and 4-speed manual.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

An0maly_76 said:


> They weren't plentiful, but it was offered. The original owner's manual for the 1978 Malibu that almost became my first car showed 3 and 4-speed manual options as well as the weakling 3-speed 200-C automatic. And you never know where you might find one. I've actually seen a factory-built '81 Malibu station wagon with a 200 V-6 and 4-speed manual.


Transmission would not hold up to the torque of a Pontiac. Add posi, sticky tires, and make sure you have a bucket and set of emergency triangles in your trunk. You are probably talking of the Saginaw 4-speeds.

"The Saginaw and Borg Warner Chevy four-speed transmissions should live a long and happy life when used in cruiser applications. If the car has high-performance upgrades that substantially raise the engine’s *torque output above 300 to 350 lb./ft.* – and traction is enhanced, you can figure on eventually breaking the transmission."

I bought what I had thought was a "good" Borg-Warner 4-speed out of a junk yard I frequented. Looked like any other 4-speed. I was told the main cluster gear was bad, but for $75 I figured it was worth picking up and maybe investing in a rebuild.

Had trans guy disassemble the trans and told me what I needed. I then called a transmission specialist I got from off the internet. Gave him the trans number and the part I needed. He asked the application I was using it for. Told him a Pontiac 400. He flat out told me to put a bucket in the trunk because the torque of the Pontiac would blow the trans up. It was a trans out of a Camaro V6.

Some try to install the T5 and find it breaks behind a Pontiac. "Borg Warner T5 5-speed overdrive transmission in third gens starting in late 1983. It replaced the Muncie Super-T10 4-speed. 1983 to 1987 was the first design, *rated at about 280 ft/lbs of torque.* 1988 to 1992 was the second design, It featured revised synchros and Timkin bearings, and *was rated around 300 ft/lbs of torque. *

So unless the list of transmissions you referenced are capable of 445-550 ft pounds of torque, they are useless behind a Pontiac engine. Remember, Pontiac went with the M22 and 12-bolt behind its 455CI in 1970 for a reason. Maybe the straight 6, 326CI, or even a stock Pontiac 350CI could use the weaker transmissions.


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## An0maly_76 (Dec 25, 2021)

I don't suppose the Saginaw and Muncie boxes can interchange parts?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

An0maly_76 said:


> I don't suppose the Saginaw and Muncie boxes can interchange parts?


No, they are all different, Muncie, Saginaw, BW. The Trans-Ams used the T-10's, but at that time the HP/TQ was way down and Muncie's were not being used. "The Muncie 4 speed was a transmission that was used in General Motors (GM) between 1963 and 1975. The Super T10 was used in GM vehicles from 1975 to 1983."

The Lemans', I believe 1971-72ish used the Saginaw. The Muncie was the "standard" trans for the muscle car era.

I recall I was told I needed a long tail shaft trans when I installed a 409 in a '65 Impala. Found an aluminum case BW T-10 from a full sized car, maybe an early Pontiac, and installed it. Had it rebuilt with new bearings/synchro's. About 3 months later, running the wide M50 tires, 3.08 posi, and pulling all out holeshots, the transmission began making noise and was not liking to shift to well. The HP/TQ of the built 409 was too much for it. Sold the trans and went TH-400.

"Early T10 transmissions were used in GM and Ford products. *As horsepower levels increased,* Ford designed the Toploader and GM the Muncie. GM replaced the T10 with the Muncie in 1963."

Always heard the Saginaw 4-speeds were weak and junk back in my time. They seemed to be behind lower HP Chevy engines. Everyone ran a Muncie. They were also cheap and plentyful.

"Saginaw four-speeds were manufactured from 1966-'86. The four-speed transmission is very similar to the tried-and-true Saginaw three-speed and fits well behind six-cylinder and eight-cylinder engines. It was originally designed for engines generating less than 300hp."


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## An0maly_76 (Dec 25, 2021)

Oh, well. It was a thought. I figured there might have possibly been some leftover Muncies in the mix with the V8-powered cars referenced.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

An0maly_76 said:


> I don't suppose the Saginaw and Muncie boxes can interchange parts?


As I already mentioned, the problem with all of this is that even if they could, you'd really not be saving any money at that point.

I glad that you enlightened me as to their existence, but I liked those cars a lot, and I grew up in a resort town on the Jersey Shore... the town Springsteen wrote all of those hot rod songs about. In 20 years I never saw one of those cars with a manual. I have to believe that finding one could be a life long quest.

In any event, Ive done extensive research on the topic of a manual conversion for early GTO's, and now that Muncie prices have been ridiculously inflated for the last year, they're not even $500 cheaper than a Tremec, for a an unrebuilt, 50 yer old trans. And once you do rebuild one, now they're the exact same price, and still a 50 year old case, no over drive, and simply not as good.

This is a little like saying you could save money by using a 2bbl instead of a 4bbl. You're giving up a lot and doing the same amount of work, for something inferior, all to save peanuts.

I do suspect that more than half of the guys out there who did a manual conversion, already had access to a donor car, but I think those days are long gone.


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## An0maly_76 (Dec 25, 2021)

Actually, I only mentioned it because I thought perhaps the V-8s with manuals might have had stragglers from the muscle era that might be worth a look. Certainly the V-6 models wouldn't have that beefy a gearbox, but I thought perhaps some of those V-8 models that got manuals might have gotten a leftover Muncie.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

If I found a 78 Camino/ Diablo with a manual, I'd likely buy it on the spot. I loved those


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