# CAI question



## disastertourism (Jul 31, 2006)

so i'm getting a CAI soon and i've been doing some research and i can't figure out what i want. basically, right now its between the lingenfelter and the K&N 63 series Aircharger. the K&N claims gains of up to 13.95 horsepower whereas the lingenfelter only claims 12 but i'm trying not to take this into consideration as i know the gains of both are probably highly inaccurate under real world conditions. just by name alone, i feel like lingenfelter would be the best bet, i mean, it seems hard to go wrong with something from lingenfelter. but here is my main issue. looking at a picture of the lingefelter, it still has the same corrugations in it, just in different places, as the stock intake hose does. now, i thought the point of the CAI was to a) reduce IAT and b) to reduce any air flow restrictions the stock intake might have. looking at the K&N, its intake hose is smooth. This seems to me to be much better. Any opinions?


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## UdnUdnGTO (Jan 30, 2006)

disastertourism said:


> so i'm getting a CAI soon and i've been doing some research and i can't figure out what i want. basically, right now its between the lingenfelter and the K&N 63 series Aircharger. the K&N claims gains of up to 13.95 horsepower whereas the lingenfelter only claims 12 but i'm trying not to take this into consideration as i know the gains of both are probably highly inaccurate under real world conditions. just by name alone, i feel like lingenfelter would be the best bet, i mean, it seems hard to go wrong with something from lingenfelter. but here is my main issue. looking at a picture of the lingefelter, it still has the same corrugations in it, just in different places, as the stock intake hose does. now, i thought the point of the CAI was to a) reduce IAT and b) to reduce any air flow restrictions the stock intake might have. looking at the K&N, its intake hose is smooth. This seems to me to be much better. Any opinions?


Welcome to the board. It is one of the finest on the web. If you want a immediate answer, go up to the search engine and type in "cai" or "Cold Air Intake." There is lots of discussion about tha question. I personally went for the Lingenfelter. Good luck and great motoring.


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## CPO's GTO (Jul 1, 2006)

UdnUdnGTO said:


> Welcome to the board. It is one of the finest on the web. If you want a immediate answer, go up to the search engine and type in "cai" or "Cold Air Intake." There is lots of discussion about tha question. I personally went for the Lingenfelter. Good luck and great motoring.


:agree I personally went with the Volant. Lots of good threads to help you decide here. Welcome aboard!


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## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

i would have to say that there are a ton of posts on "C"AIs and hardly any that say anything meaningful. a larger filter is a must but the other must is *COLD AIR*. the only useful measurement of that is *I*ntake *A*ir *T*emperatures in real world conditions. how long it takes to get from hot to as close to ambient as it can get when the light changes to green on the road or strip. look for that and you'll come up close to empty. cool air is what makes the car feel strong on a cool morning and weak on a warm evening. nobody cares about performance tho. it's looks, feels, sounds, SOTP and dynos. buy the prettiest


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## CPO's GTO (Jul 1, 2006)

svede1212 said:


> i would have to say that there are a ton of posts on "C"AIs and hardly any that say anything meaningful. a larger filter is a must but the other must is *COLD AIR*. the only useful measurement of that is *I*ntake *A*ir *T*emperatures in real world conditions. how long it takes to get from hot to as close to ambient as it can get when the light changes to green on the road or strip. look for that and you'll come up close to empty. cool air is what makes the car feel strong on a cool morning and weak on a warm evening. nobody cares about performance tho. it's looks, feels, sounds, SOTP and dynos. buy the prettiest


Agreed...However, since the poster was looking for something currently being 
produced as an aftermarket for our cars, these may have to do. Until of course, someone develops one that ducts actual cold air into the intake like
a corvette CAI. Unfortunately, I don't have the time or knowledge required
to develop one myself...BTW, seems like no one else does either, since three years have passed and we still have the same CAI options available.


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## stupidaznmunkey (Apr 22, 2006)

honestly, go with whichever setup is cheaper. the difference in 1-2 whp is not gonna make a drastic difference and either way you gain more than the stock instake box.


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## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

CPO's GTO said:


> Agreed...However, since the poster was looking for something currently being
> produced as an aftermarket for our cars, these may have to do. Until of course, someone develops one that ducts actual cold air into the intake like
> a corvette CAI. Unfortunately, I don't have the time or knowledge required
> to develop one myself...BTW, seems like no one else does either, since three years have passed and we still have the same CAI options available.


Midwest Performance and Development is working on the same type of intake as the DIY style. if you didn't want to make one for about $100 in parts, i'd wait for that one. with a couple of tweaks it could be as good as a DIY in a kit form with instructions _and _look pretty.

BTW, the HP difference between a true "cold" air intake and the easy to put in aftermarkets is much higher than a couple of HP. at 86* IAT (intake air temperature) your VCM starts pulling timing. some have bothered to log IATs at the track and they show that they're back in the pits before the temps/timing (and with it the HP) start coming to back normal. the same thing happens at stop lights or any time your not cruising constantly. anybody that has any feeling in their butt has felt the "heat soak" difference between cool mornings and warm afternoon/evenings. it's your "cold" air induction at work. log yours and you'll see 120*+ idling and it takes a minute or two to even get within 10* of ambient. DIY gets to within 5* in 2-5 seconds


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## BigNick (Jan 7, 2005)

svede1212 said:


> Midwest Performance and Development is working on the same type of intake as the DIY style. if you didn't want to make one for about $100 in parts, i'd wait for that one. with a couple of tweaks it could be as good as a DIY in a kit form with instructions _and _look pretty.
> (snip)


So I take it that Midwest Performance will also be including the Omega thermistor (or an equivalent) to replace the stock IAT sensor (which you have proven to have the reaction time of a dead sloth)?


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## disastertourism (Jul 31, 2006)

thanks everyone for the warm welcome and the info. i think i have just about decided on the lingenfelter. i would like to do a home made job but, unfortunately, i don't have the know how to do it, and honestly, i'm not racing or anything so i think i would really be splitting hairs to make my own. i think a third party one should suit my needs just fine. thanks again.


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## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

BigNick said:


> So I take it that Midwest Performance will also be including the Omega thermistor (or an equivalent) to replace the stock IAT sensor (which you have proven to have the reaction time of a dead sloth)?


i don't think so. that was one of the tweaks. the temptation is that you can simply bolt on a relatively cheap mod and have meaningful performance. it doesn't work that way and every increase gets harder and more expensive. i guess some need the organized kit form to do it. that said, it isn't hard to put your own intake together.


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## rushhour (Aug 3, 2004)

Svede is right - the best route is to have a filter out side of the car pulling in somewhat fresh/ambient air such as the one being marketed by Midwest Performance. The problem with that unit is that you have to cut a hole in the car to drop the pipe through and even with it you pick up some hot air from the engine compartment.

In addition to the actual hot air in the car - you also have a problem with the heat soaking of the IAT sensor. It takes a while for it to come down in temp once it gets hot.

Given that I didn't feel like cutting a hole in my car - I went to an enclosed 3rd party airbox (ColdAirInductions.com). I have my own version of a 4 inch MAF pipe set up.

While not as good as the drop through it does cool the intake charge down quite a bit over stock box (I had a 2 hole box set up for 2 years & swore by it). I watch my IAT's constantly (dual areoforce gauges). Normally at cruise I am 5-8 degrees over ambient (of course the faster I go the lower the temp). In the stagging lanes with a heat soaked motor (went right from tech to stage) - I had an IAT of about 110, at the end of the run it was 89-92 degrees (Ambient was 78 if I remember correctly) - not perfect - but a lot better then my modified stock setup would have done. 

Beyond the box - we have to figure a way to keep the IAT cool. I am almost to the point of having a couple in the car set in an aluminum tube ready to insert in my tube between runs. The only other real world way is to go to an Alky injection system to cool it down.

Steve

Forgot - you can see pictures of my inake tube & old modified stock airbox in the 2004 Mechanical Parts Gallery. The tube was really easy to make.


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## BigNick (Jan 7, 2005)

*pulling timing*



svede1212 said:


> at 86* IAT (intake air temperature) your VCM starts pulling timing.


Is it pulling timing at 86 degrees due to actual knock occurring in the engine, or just as a precaution just in case you are running regular unleaded (87)? Can a tune increase this threshold w/o engine damage, as long as 93 octane or higher fuel is used? I normally run Sunoco 94 anyway so I shouldn't have knock problems...


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## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

BigNick said:


> Is it pulling timing at 86 degrees due to actual knock occurring in the engine, or just as a precaution just in case you are running regular unleaded (87)? Can a tune increase this threshold w/o engine damage, as long as 93 octane or higher fuel is used? I normally run Sunoco 94 anyway so I shouldn't have knock problems...


no the 86* threshold is to prevent knock even at higher octane. every 10* increase in temp requires a 1/2 increase in octane to prevent knock. stock and "C"AIs can see temps at least temporarily at 130-150* and then come down slowly when you get going. you can tame down the IAT table a bit but it's still best to get cool air in. cool air is denser than warmer air. the other idea is this. you usually bump up the timing at torque to 26-27*ish for best power. if you have knock you reduce the timing to the threshold that doesn't have knock. you mess with the IAT table. now if the intake charge is warmer it knocks again so you reduce timing to prevent knock at that temp. now you have it set... but it gets hotter so you reduce timing on the timing tables again to prevent knock. now your running 25* all of the time so when it's hot you don't get knock. if your intake charge is cool and you haven't messed too much with the IAT table you can run it at 27* timing most of the time and have the IAT table reduce timing if it gets a warmer intake charge. keep the air coming cool and it runs optimum timing all of the time.
the point of that long story is if you adjust the IAT table too much you can make it run about the same most of the time but it isn't the best it can be when it's cooler. dyno#s are sometimes false numbers because they don't reflect real world driving. moral, get cool air coming in


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## MSTNGKILLA (Jul 27, 2006)

Wow, u are wright that it would not be to hard to build your own set up! I wonder what Hp # would be with a custom pipe set up that runs down to the bumper, place a K/N directly in the wind, wrap the pipe with some header wrap or what ever is available to best keep out heat could be done cheap!! probebly cheaper than buying a $300.00 Heat sucker. It most likely wont look so nice though. but in the end I would rather have better HP#'s than looks! there is a kid on ls2gto that wrap'd his intake with header wrap and his iat's went down by 10!


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## svede1212 (Nov 1, 2005)

i used beverage foam tubing like the kind they run beer or pop lines thru. it's a 4" dia 1/2" thick black foam tube that looks pretty good and works better than a wrap. read my intake thread. you need all of the pieces of the puzzle to make it work right.


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