# Pontiac 400 compared to Mopar 383, Ford 390, and Chevy 396



## Orion88 (Apr 24, 2012)

So my curiosity got the best of me today and I was wondering how all these motors stacked up against each other. I chose these motors because they are all very similar in displacement, they were all readily available back in the day, and with the exception of the Pontiac, were all big blocks. For comparative basis let's assume these were all 1970 motors with no rare options such as Ram Air IV, dual quad setups, etc. All of the horsepower and torque ratings these cars had from the factory were conservative to say the least for insurance purposes. What I would like to know is how these motors compared to each other, brand new back in the day, side by side. I'm not necessarily interested in opinions. This is a Pontiac forum... obviously our opinions will strongly lean towards the 400. I'm more interested in factual information. So throw some numbers at me! Peak horsepower and torque and at what RPM's, bore, stroke, airflow, compression ratios, engine weight, whatever you can think of.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I have driven all of the above, at one time or another. I have laid waste to all of the above with a Pontiac 400, including a 396 in a '67 Firebird when I had a burnt exhaust valve. Pontiac under rated their engines HP wise, and the others tended to over rate them. Don't get me wrong, they are all strong engines. It's just that the Pontiac has a bit more oomph, especially down low in the RPM range. The 390 Ford is the slowest of the bunch, with the 396 and 383 being about the same. I've driven Chevelles, RoadRunners, and Fairlanes with these engines, and they were all slower than the lowly 400 Pontiac V8. As for actual numbers, you can research 1/4 mile times of the day to get a good picture of what was what. Back then (late '70's), I always found that the unmodified 383-390-396 engines ran better than the back yard modified ones, though.


----------



## Orion88 (Apr 24, 2012)

That's pretty interesting. I'll look up some things here in a bit. But now I have to ask, what has laid your Pontiac 400's to waste over the years??


----------



## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

389 tri-pwr


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

LOL....Roger That is right. My 389 tripower '65 will eat the 400 in my '67 for breakfast. But the '65 is a 4 speed with steeper gears and weighs less. With the '67 400 in my '66 4 speed 3.55 4bbl GTO back in the day, the only guy who beat me was a '69 Roadrunner with a built (5k in the engine in 1979 dollars) 440 and a Torqueflite. But I was selective. I didn't race that Camaro that pulled a wheel stand, or my co-worker with a '67 Dodge Dart with a pumped 440 and a 4 speed, and I picked my battles. Raced 'like' cars. But the garden variety encounters were no issue. Raced an LS-6 454 '70 Chevelle and beat him, as well as a bunch of '60's 'Vettes. A friend had a bone stock '67 GTO with an automatic and a 2.93 rear gear, and he beat everybody except a guy in a Shelby GT500 and a guy in a Superbird with a 440 sixpack. We paired him up 3 times against a built '69 SS 396 with 427 parts, and he blew the doors off of the Chevelle each time. I tuned and drove a '69 383 Roadrunner with a 4 speed, a '66 Fairlane 390 GTA, and a '66 SS396 Chevelle, and none were a match to my '66 GTO with a 400 Pontiac under the hood. I owned a '66 Coronet with a 375HP 440 and a 4 speed, and it was slower than my 389 powered '65 GTO. I sold the Coronet.


----------



## Orion88 (Apr 24, 2012)

Well here are the "official" numbers:

383 Magnum 4-bbl: Bore/stroke: 4.25 x 3.38. CR: 9.5:1. HP: 335 @ 5200. TQ: 425 @ 3400	
Ford 390 4-bbl: Bore/stroke: 4.05 x 3.78. CR: 10.5:1. HP: 325 @ 4800. TQ: 427 @ 3200
Chevy 396 (402 in 1970): Bore/Stroke: 4.1259 x 3.76. CR: 10.25:1. HP: 350 (no RPM found). TQ: 415 (no RPM found)
Pontiac 400: Bore/Stroke: 4.12 x 3.75. CR: 10.5:1. HP: 345 @ 5000. TQ: 430 @ 3400

I was surprised to see such a low compression Ratio for the 383 Magnum. I wish I knew the RPM's for peak horsepower/torque for the Chevy. Anyone know the answer to this? 

Now the only problem I have with these figures is that these are what the cars were rated at from the factory, and we all know these numbers are BS. What I would like to know is these engines' actual power output measured on a Dyno in pure stock form. Does anyone have access to such information, if it even exists? I've seen the youtube video where they put a Chevy 409 up against a SD 421, which was cool, but I'm more interested in the engines the average joes had under the hood back in the day.


----------



## Orion88 (Apr 24, 2012)

Here's a good video of a stock 396 dyno pull. It put out a respectable 444HP @ 5760, but only 455 lb-ft of TQ @ 4900. Surely Poncho has this beat...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCzmr1_GgNM


----------



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

As a friend of mine (Jim Lehart) likes to say,

"The GTO didn't gain its street reputation by making a habit out of losing to the SS 396..."



Bear


----------



## Orion88 (Apr 24, 2012)

This is very true Bear!

The reason I started thinking about all this is because my good friend is rebuilding a 1970 Challenger with a 383 Magnum and we got to discussing the issue. Also Chevy guys love to talk sh*t but I don't think I've ever heard of an SS 396 consistently outdoing a Pontiac 400. As for Ford, from what I've seen the 390 was primarily a truck engine with nothing special, but they were used in some Fairlanes and Galaxies. The 383 Magnum might have an advantage because of the bore/stroke ratio, and it has a lower compression ratio, so it's got room to grow if you want to build it up.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Again, Orion, this might be just me, but I drove dozens of these cars when they were 8-12 years old back in the day, and my take on it is this: the only Mopar that could compete with the Pontiac was a 440 with multiple carbs. I never drove/raced a 426 Hemi, but I drove 426 and 413 Wedges. Raced a friend with a 340 Scat-pak dart with a 3.91 rear gear, and i had him by a fender until 80mph, and then left him in the dust (I was driving the '65 GTO I still have). 383's were '0K', but nothing to write home about. 390 Ford was the slowest of the bunch. I must have raced against 50 SS 396 Chevelles and Camaros, and none of them ever even came close to my 389 or 400 Pontiac. The actual closest race I had was against a friend with a '69 Z-28 with a built 302, dual quads on a cross ram, 4.11 gears, and a 4 speed. I was running my '66 GTO with a $150 junkyard '67 Catalina 400 engine with a 066 (2bbl cam), 3.55 gears, 4 speed, and tripower. I beat him by a single car length. He never lived it down, and that was over 30 years ago. Still pissed. A $4k blueprinted engine in a light car losing to a junkyard engine out of a 4 door sedan that used to be a 2bbl. In a heavier car. Also, realize that only Pontiac and Olds had the Hurst shifters. The Chevelle had the crossmember mounted Muncie shifter, which you couldn't speed shift. (it would bind with engine torque under WOT). The Chrylsers had the notchy, long throw Inland shifter (slow to shift), etc. The Pontiacs were ALL AROUND better equipped cars: just look at the interior/guages of a Pontiac and compare them to a Chevelle or Fairlane or Roadrunner. Not even close. When I was in high school, all of these now high dollar Mopars were everywhere, and were $500 cars. I chose a '66 GTO instead, because it was fast, good looking, and most of all, much higher build quality than the tinny, cheesy Mopars. I worked on a ton of these cars back in the day, and could go on and on about the crappy Falcon based suspension of the Fairlanes, the loose steering and poor quality of the Mopars, and the over rated, underwhelming performance of the Chevelles. Hopefully, other old guys with similar experience will give their 2 cents............


----------



## Orion88 (Apr 24, 2012)

That's pretty awesome. And the main reason I'm asking. I'm only 25. I didn't grown up racing between stop lights. When I was still driving my car the only people who challenged me to race were stupid tuners and rice burners. And I wouldn't give them the satisfaction. And any muscle car today that is bone stock and all original numbers matching no one wants to race because they're too valuable. So I'm just trying to figure out how things really stood on the street, because the factory ratings never told the real story.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

RIght On. Also, keep in mind that my experiences are mostly "Day Two". My friend Andy's '67 GTO with the 2.93 was indeed, bone stock 100% down to the whitewalls and hubcaps. The lady we bought it from got it brand new for a high school graduation present. We picked it up as a 12 year old, 90k mile car for $1350, and the engine had been overhauled at Doten Pontiac at 80k miles. That car ran like a scalded cat. Especially out on the highway. I remember cruising 110-120 at about 4100 rpm. (had the rally dash). Thing is, in the late '70's, these cars were cheap, used, gas-hog cars. Most wore original paint. I had the cleanest '66 GTO in town, because it was just repainted. NOBODY was fixing these cars up to look nice. Most had mags, headers, and air shocks. My GTO's didn't start getting 'noticed' until the mid-late '80's, when the prices and level of the cars started to rise. You saw more 'restored' cars then. But in the late '70's, a decent 4 speed '64-'67 goat could be had from $400-$1500. They were simply used cars. There WERE no fast Hondas back then. Or fast domestic cars, either. If you wanted to go fast, you bought a cheap 10 year old used car, whatever brand. Like I said, I drove them all, but the GTO was the perfect combination of style, performance, and interior treatment. They got it perfect. The '68 Charger looked great, but the dash was cheesy and the window cranks fell off. The ones that were the equal of the GTO back then? A friend's stock '70 Olds 442 with a 455 and a TH400....car was a bomb, and a co-workers '69 Buick GS Stage 1 4 speed convertible.....that car was in GTO territory, as well. In fact, the Buick GS's and GSX's were very, very fast, faster than a lot of GTO's and even beating out the 426 Hemi in a Roadrunner on a road test at the strip.....and the '70GSX was an automatic, air conditioned car with a 3.23 rear end.....the Hemi was 4.10 geared, had dual quads, and was a 4 speed....and lost to the GSX in the 1/4 mile. Buicks and Old's got my respect then and now: the build quality was equal or superior to the Pontiac, but the syling wasn't quite as sharp. Chevrolet? At the time, the lowest price GM product, entry level, and it showed. The only reason they were and are so popular is because they were cheaper to buy and more were produced, so more people had them and remember them. They certainly were not better cars.


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

:agree with everything geeteeohguy said.


----------



## GTO70455 (Feb 10, 2009)

The Street was different in 1969. The first car I bought was a brand new 1970 GTO. ram air iv car. I grew up in Brooklyn and street racing was king. Here are the rules you kept in mine. A factory Chevy 396 was good but can be beat, A factory LS6 454, will blow your doors off if the driver could drive. Mopar a factory Street hemi, most owners could not get them to run, hard to tune. could be beat(Mopars are very heavy). A tuned 440 That was tuff to beat, but It was possible. The Pontiac 400ra IV was very good, but most of it was toque great low end not much top end. The one thing you had to watch was the Chevy guy with built motors, In 69 you could get all kinds of speed parts for Chevys even aluminum heads, Pontiac was different almost no street, speed parts that we could get hold of. So the answer to your question is apple and oranges. I left Ford out because there were not many around the area I was in and the ones we knew all had 351's and there were junk!!!!!


----------



## Orion88 (Apr 24, 2012)

That's pretty interesting. I'm well aware that the Hemi's were difficult to keep running right. The heads were full of cheap junk parts until you put a few hundred bucks into them. A properly tuned 440 though was much more streetable and could still tear up the pavement. Ford really only had two decent motors that I'm aware of: The Boss 302 and the 429, but I don't know much about Fuurds. And yes, the Olds 442's and Buick Stage 1's were pretty dominant, especially for being perceived as a grandpas car, and I don't particularly like the styling either (Except the boattail rivieras and the Grand Nationals of course!). So the general consensus seems to be that of the stock, run-of-the-mill power plants that were readily available at the time, Pontiac was king. Even with regards to the rare, high performance engines, the Ram Air II Firebirds consistently place very high in pure stock drag racing today. Not too shabby.

So I've been looking around and haven't found very many engine dyno runs on these engines in bone stock form, except for the 396. I'm still curious what kinds of numbers a bone stock Pontiac 400 would produce. Everyone who does a bone stock dyno run typically has a rare performance motor, which is cool, but those were hard to come by back in the day.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Yes, ten years earlier and on the east coast, different story for hot Chevys and parts availability from dealers. Not the same dynamic as the west coast, ten years later. It was cheap and easy to build up a big rat motor and be competitive in the late '60's, though. Luckily, I never faced off against any of_ those_ cars. Just the 'regular' SS454-402-396 Chevies. I agree with the wedge motors by Mopar: the fastest ones seemed to be the 440's with multiple carbs. They were pretty bulletproof. In the end, a lot of the equation was the skill of the driver, especially those of us who were rowing a 4 speed.


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

The "Muscle Car" era can be defined by the production years of the GTO!! 1964 to 1974


----------



## Orion88 (Apr 24, 2012)

Found a video of an Olds 442 dyno pull. The W-30 455 made 510 lb-ft of torque and 427 horsepower with stock heads, intake, exhaust, and quadrajet. BUT it was punched .030 over which probably gave it a little extra power.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Not much.....less than 10 more cubic inches. Olds, Buick, and Pontiac under-rated their figures. Chevy and Mopar and Ford tended to over-rate them, especially Chevy. I raced more than one 375 HP small block corvette or 375 HP big block Chevelle with a mere 360 HP GTO, and beat them easily. Very hard time believing that the little 375HP 327small block Chev actually put out that kind of power...if it did, the torque must have been about 300 foot pounds. The stock Pontiac? Over 425 foot pounds, usually more.


----------



## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

Well I'll hail in with memories from deep within the organs of Motown...where these beeotches were conceived!

On the street? Big Block Chevy, always, and not every one but dominant in most cases. My memories and experiences are also "day 2". 390 Ford? Had a 63 390 Cadillac in SWB 62 Ford unibody pickup (read that as lighter than the Caddy that gave up it's motor) and that ol thing just flew. It didn't have long legs, but in an 1/8mi sprint it would piss off a lot of cars including a 73 350 Camaro with a 4spd. Any of the 390 cars didn't wanna play. Had a 70 383 'Cuda. A real "BS23N..." car with a 4spd and 3:55s. 14.21 at 97MPH on slippery L-60 tires at Detroit Dragway. Even feathered off the line 2nd gear would start a new "burnout", and as to it's build qulity? Hamtramck Dumpster!! "CLANG-SQUEEK-BUBUMP" was the order of the day even after a quality restoration of the body (though not body-off). Sexy car, and I could look at it all day from a rear 3/4 view. Had a 440 GTX for a time and it had the same dumpster traits but it was pretty fast. Just don't leave the ashtray open when you bang 3rd gear! OOUUCHHH!! I've had a few BBCs under foot but never a 396. The 396 in my neighborhood was no punk. Being Motown there was no shortage of knowledgeable tuners and they cruised with confidence. I had a slug 454 from a 74 Blazer in Chevelle. With 3.31 gears it had some spirit but it took a "blue bottle tune up" to gain just a little respect. My Pontiacs? Sorry kids, they were the slowest of the lot. I had a 70 GTO with a 73 T/A 400 in it. Fun, torquey, sure-footed, but no match for anything else I had. It was an automatic with 3.08 gears. Had a 69 'Bird that got a 400 2bbl from a 69 wagon installed out of necessity. Also with 3.08 gears, 16.40s in the 1/4mi at 86MPH. Had a 69 Grand Prix with 421 transplant. Very, and I mean veerry long legs. Not a 1/4 mi car at all but serious top end. 

The best of the best under my foot? 69 Boss 302. Never took it to the track but the log book that came with it noted 12.80s for the day. This was an Autocross car more than a drag racer but I was a drag racer and knocked many an unsuspecting car back with a lowly "302". Don't think for a minute that I thought that's all it was. Canted monster valves, 780 Holley, 4spd and 4:30 Det Locker. 2nd was a 68 GT500KR with 428CJ and 4spd hooked to 3:55 gears. Stomp it from a 50 roll in 4th and it felt like passing gear when the secondaries opened. A heavy and solid "man's car" in all respects. There were a couple fast Pontiacs around but the BBCs and Mopars ruled the streets. My 383 was no punk but the rest of the car flat out sucked.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

666BBL, I love hearing about this stuff straight out of Motown. That's were it all originated, and that was the place to be at the time. Excellent! On the Boss thing: I have some lone-time Ford friends who I went to high school with, and my friend Eric bought a 40,000 mile '70 Boss 302 in 1980 for $2500. School bus yellow withe the black stripes. Poverty caps with trim rings. 4 speed and I think a 3.89 posi. We ran that car hard for a year or two, and it was fast, and handled. Could not top-end my GTO, but up to 60-70mph, it was a beast. Car was like new. Eric sold it to his brother in '84 for $4500, which was a good deal at the time. Eric's brother sold it to Parnelli Jones, who still has it. And I understand it got a total restoration, which would be a shame, as it was a shiny paint survivor car that looked about 2 years old. Anyhow, thanks for posting....and hope to hear more!


----------



## Orion88 (Apr 24, 2012)

Stumbled across this video on youtube tonight. I remember watching this when I was a kid (although most of you still consider me a kid). It does a great job of answering a lof of the questions I was throwing around. Unfortunately the GTO does not perform very outstandingly. HOWEVER, I think the test wasn't quite fair on the GTO. Why? Because all of these cars are the best years for that particular model performance wise, AND they all have the top engine packages (LS6 Chevelle, Boss 429, Buick Stage 1, W30 Olds, 426 Hemi), EXCEPT for the GTO. The 69 Judge certainly is a great car, but they used a Ram Air III version instead of Ram Air IV, and if they would have used a 70 instead, they would have had the 455. So, I'm definitely not convinced by this shootout. If you have 30 minutes to spare, check this video out and let me know your thoughts. Another interesting thing to note, all of the GM A-body cars came out on top for the most part with regard to handling and braking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKUFV8vLdPw


----------



## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

From the movie The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance:

"When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." How many know that a genuine L-88 Vette will knock the living snot out of an SC Cobra? How many know that a 440 6 Pack will dust a Hemi in like condition? How many know that a Buick Stage (whatever) will cover the 1/4 mile in the high 11s with very few mods (mostly traction and chassis)? For some reason our automotive press will seldom print the reality of our beloved performance cars. They seem to think that whatever was heralded as "king" has to remain as such regardless of the reality. The reality here in the Motor State was that anyone, anytime, anywhere may pull up next to you and clean your clock but good with a Pontiac, Buick, Olds, Ford (anything), Chevy (anything) or one of dozens of Mopar muscle examples. I seem to see that those of us who keep Pontiacs in a "safe place" within ourselves are a minority. I'm fine with that (as expressed in the LS topic). We can make anything fast as my dear departed Dad and I proved with old Cadillacs in pickups. 389, 383, 396, 390, all have their place on the HP scrotum pole but back in the day any one of them might leave you secretly weeping just a bit.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Also, all engines, regardless of make, are not equal. Some of the very same make/year/model engines run much better than others. They are smoother and put out more power. I ran against a friend with a 4 speed '70 Torino Drag Pack car, a 429 Cobra Jet (but not the SCJ), and it had a 4.30 gear. It was from the dig, and about 1/4 mile. I was in the '65 I have now, with the 389, 3X2, 3 tube Hedman Headers, and Sig Erson cam. 4 speed with 3.55 gears. He couldn't believe that I beat him, and pretty badly. But, this 389 runs harder than the 428 that was in the car previously that was similarly equipped. I guess the parts are better matched. But yes, if built by someone experienced, _any_ engine can surprise you. I never rode in, but a friend owned a '67 GTO Ram Air car: TH400 with a 4.33 gear. It was mint. Original owner car. He paid 4k for it in 1985, and I thought 'man that's expensive!". But the car flat out flew.


----------



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Well, I can't add to much to this conversation as most of the run-ins I had were at speed and random. If someone pulled along side or blipped the gas at a light, I'd just go with it. The only time I was match against anyone in a street race was in the '65 409 car. Went against a supposed 425HP 340 in a 1969 Dart GTS. The 409 was recently fired up and the car was not even registered. I lived on a main road leading into an industrial park where some would race. So we went to the far end and lined up -several witnesses around to watch. I revved the '09 up to about 2,500 RPM's, someone yelled "Go", and dumped the clutch. The 340 took off as the '09 overpowered the rear end and began a violent wheel hop up and down. I pushed in the clutch to make it stop, the 340 was a couple car lengths out in front, and I eased the clutch out and then nailed it. I took off like a rocket after the 340 and was eating him up. I had a close ration 4-sp turning 3.08 gears spinning 6,200 RPM so first gear was probably good to about 70 MPH when I went for second. I installed an original 1965 wiggle stick shifter (had the chrome ball and T-handle lock out for reverse-just like a Corvette) and for the life of me I could not get the thing into second gear. I finally did, hit the gas, began running down the 340 again, but just could not catch him. Now with all this, he only got me at the end by about 2 car lengths or less. We pulled over and decided to do a rematch. Got back to the start line when a resident came out yelling and screaming to call the cops. Rather then race again, we heeded the threat and left. I came to know the owner of the 340 and always asked for a rematch. He said there was no need because he knew I could take him after his first experience.

In the '09 I developed a reputation and few wanted to race it. A friend of my brothers had a 1967 Shelby 427 4-sp 2-fours and it was probably one of the fastest cars in the area. He told me that he might be able to match me, but was not sure if even he could outrun the '09.

I did run a 1977 455CI Trans-Am that had a reputation and was said to be one of the fastest cars and no one could beat it. It was driven by a woman and the engine was said to be built up big by her husband and nobody could touch it. I was on the interstate when I happened upon it, and as I got alongside, the gal opened it up. I was ready and put the '09 to the mat. She got a 1/2 fender jump on me, but I slowly closed that up, and by the time we were crossing the 100 MPH barrier, I was in the lead and slowly inching away. She then let off and dropped back.

So many of my street race experiences were of this nature when I had my '67 Firebird, '67 GTO conv., '68 GTO HT, '70 GTO Judge, the 409, or any other car I drove.

I did get the opportunity to drive a low mileage 1970 375HP 396CI 4-speed Chevelle SS that an older friend bought new. I drove it normal until he told me to drive it like I mean it because there was nothing I could do to it that he hadn't. So I opened it up and went through the gears. It pulled nice, but I had the '09 at the time and it was no comparison. The 396CI just did not have the torque and that would also be my comment as compared to any of my GTO's.

My '67 GTO convertible had factory 3.90 gears, factory close ratio 4-speed, and an installed tri-power when I first bought it. That car would rip your head off. At 10 mpg, even back then I could not afford to drive it like that. Swapped the 3.90's shortly after getting it and installed some 3.08's. Mileage went way up. So rear axle gearing is a big part of "who has the fastest car" sometimes.


----------



## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

Sounds like were singing the same song in different keys. While it might be heresy to say it here, if I wanted to build a big power bruiser for the street (not likely) or the track my choice would be a BBC. With iron Merlins treated to my own porting, .680/.714 roller, Dart Dominator intake with a 1050 and out-of-the-box TRW (Speed Pro) pistons (454 .100 over) I was able to wring out over 700 HP. No "trick of the week" BS, none of the "gotta have its", just some logic and restraint. 7800 RPM in the traps in good air, 7600 in the heat and humidity of MI summers. Stock block, stock crank (GM non-twisted forging), stock rods with 7/16 bolts. Nobody could believe what I did with what I had back then and I even heard "...you just got lucky with...". Yet with that experience behind me I can't wait to roll around in the 65 once it's done. I don't care if it goes 15 sec in the 1/4 mile, I just want a real car under my ass again!


----------



## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

:STFU: No way :smilielol:.


----------



## Orion88 (Apr 24, 2012)

So while I was at Norwalk this past weekend I got to experience some of the best Pontiac had to offer. One of the guys in our group took me for a ride along down the drag strip during time trials in his 69 Judge. The car was a 4 speed, had a 3.90 rear, and although it wasn't original, it was sporting a pure stock Ram Air IV engine. The car did a 12.95 second quarter mile with two large people in it and with a very worn out clutch. I gotta say, after that experience, I find it very hard to believe there was much else faster than that back in the day. It was most certainly the highlight of the weekend for me.


----------



## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

ALKYGTO said:


> :STFU: No way :smilielol:.


To what? If it's regarding my 477 race engine, sorry. At 3545 lbs at the starting line I ran a best of 10.32 at 129.85 MPH. That shakes out to about 714 flywheel HP. In it's original "street race" version with a mild roller it averaged 10.60s at 126. We dropped it into a lighter car (1000 lbs lighter) one weekend. He had a 11.5:1 427 that ran 10s. His 1st pass netted 9.78 all over the track due to the lack of air pressure in his tires. Once the pressure was raised it managed a best of 9.38 at 138 MPH. His hands were quivering when he got out having never been that fast. I sprayed the 1st one, and promptly destroyed it. I was given a modded plate vs the one offered by NOS. What I thought was a 100/150 2 stage shot was more like 150/250 (!), but for about 600' it was the ride of my life!! Didn't know it blew as it just began to sputter a bunch and just stalled, slamming me forward into the harness. I'm busy looking at gauges wondering "WTF?" and then realized I was running out of track in the shut down. 10.70 at 111, and all the "motor honey" I wanted on the return road inspection. That's motor honey as in, "...need a new motor, honey..."


----------



## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

For a stout street or race motor a BBC is, dollar for dollar, hard to beat. Not to mention the choices and parts availability. I was being sarcastic, of course, since I run a BBC in my GTO.

When I first put it together with the supercharger it made 750 hp to the wheels and I had $4500 dollars in the whole engine scoop to pan with the headers. What I didn't know when I ran it on the dyno was that I shut it off at 5500 rpm as I had no tachometer in the car and that was as high as I wanted to spin it. Combination is a 454 block, 396 steel crank, Eagle rods, TRW's and good machining with studs everywhere and roller everything. 6-71 blower 12% overdriven. Those numbers are with a set of ported square port heads, now I'm running Dart 335's and it feels much stronger. :bannana:

To build a Pontiac to run with this engine I would spend north of $25k. :banghead:


----------



## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

So ALKY, is your gig sung to the likes of Johnny Cash or Kid Rock?  

I'm a Dean Martin type myself, but sometimes I'm almost Eminem


----------



## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Love the Man in Black and Kid Rock :bannana::bannana:

But I'm more of a Reverend Horton Heat kinda guy.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLYZPuUFHSc :thumbsup:


----------



## 666bbl (Apr 13, 2014)

So you're one of "those guys" too? Awesome. I frequent the board that really caters to a time of real hotrods and early drag racers. 64-5 goats are welcome there too. Glad to hear it, and a fun topic. Rock on...


----------



## srea76 (Jul 28, 2014)

I had to purchase a new carb last week. I tried to go back with the rochester like I had, but the parts store told me their distributor didn't carry them and would only let me send my old one in for a rebuild. I decided to check elsewhere and I found another store that could get me one for the low cost of 500+. In the end I decided to go with a Holley street avenger. 670cfm with vacuum secondaries. Hope this helps. My old carb was dumping if you floor it and I hope this resolves that. My secondary also had a crack and continuous drip.


----------



## muscle truck (Feb 5, 2015)

*different handling*



Orion88 said:


> So my curiosity got the best of me today and I was wondering how all these motors stacked up against each other. I chose these motors because they are all very similar in displacement, they were all readily available back in the day, and with the exception of the Pontiac, were all big blocks. For comparative basis let's assume these were all 1970 motors with no rare options such as Ram Air IV, dual quad setups, etc. All of the horsepower and torque ratings these cars had from the factory were conservative to say the least for insurance purposes. What I would like to know is how these motors compared to each other, brand new back in the day, side by side. I'm not necessarily interested in opinions. This is a Pontiac forum... obviously our opinions will strongly lean towards the 400. I'm more interested in factual information. So throw some numbers at me! Peak horsepower and torque and at what RPM's, bore, stroke, airflow, compression ratios, engine weight, whatever you can think of.


 It all depends on how they are driven. Not all different designed and brand engines worked alike as far as torque curve or power bands. For example, a lot of guys have a so so opinion of a 396 chevy, particularly the 325-350hp versions. But the deal with those is that you had to drive them like you were mad at them (shifting at 5000 rpm) to really see their true output. And yea, the 396 was a a$$ kicker motor even at the lesser output versions. One thing for sure is that the average Joe who might have had a fast 440 dodge might not be as fast if he drove a 360hp/427 chevy the same way. Where as someone with expertise in racing and understanding powerbands might actually be able to beat the 440 or equal it with the 427. Some engines make tons of low to mid torque and are easy to race for lesser experienced drivers, where as high-end breathers like 426 Hemis and early big block chevys may require understanding to get the most out of them. For example, many guys say a 440 mopar can take a 426 hemi on the street and a 455 buick GS would eat it! But those are smoother high torque low end monsters and the Hemi was a temperamental engine that was cammed a bit much and had too big of ports for efficient street driving...but if you tach it up to 6000+rpm between shifts without being too scared of breaking something, the story would be different. Those other engines might either peak or start to drop at such rpms. Basically, whatever HP rating they have really does give the tale of the tape as far as potential. But they will get there differently. The 400 Pontiac was a very smooth torque maker with horsepower and was easy to get going. A 350hp/396 would require a higher 4500+ rpm rev through first and equal rpm shifts to really get a taste of its true flavor. This is from real experience.


----------



## PontiacPaul (Dec 22, 2014)

I think a lot has to do with tuning TRACTION and driver ability I am a Pontiac lover thru and thru. In 1980 My 65 gto was fast 389 m21 with a chevy 373 12 bolt. I could handle most guys on the berlin turnpike. One of my good friends which was and still is an engine guru and knows how to make big power has a 68 chevelle with a 402 built built and I couldn't get near him. Im not a good loser, Remember no one was making any real Pontiac parts that were affordable and still hard to get if you had the cash. I was a senior in high school and my friend worked at Jackson Chevrolet he got me a new LS7 open chamber 454 for 2825.00 out the door. I borrowed the money installed it in my gto added headers intake and an 850 holley with some 456 gears and was never beat again. It may be a little off topic because we were street racers. the moral is 2800.00 couldn't get me anywhere near that power at the time. Even now with all the awesome Pontiac parts available hp vs dollars Pontiac power is prohibitive.


----------



## rickm (Feb 8, 2012)

my '64 bobcat had quite a reputation around town for being a fast car. I did get smoked by a corvette with an all aluminum 3-2 bbl. holly 427 corvette. not sure what the horsepower was in that rocket.


----------



## 1969 gto (Apr 27, 2014)

My first GTO, right out of high school in the early eighties, was fast but I did lose a few races. It was equipped with TH400 and 2:93 gears. But when I installed a Muncie 22 and a 3:90 gears it was a totally different ball game. I raced what seemed like a endless supply of Camaros with 350 4spd and some 396 Camaros, I lost to one who later confessed to having nitrous, but not by much. It seemed the only cars that came close was Olds and Buicks, after racing a few Buicks and Olds, which were far and few in between because they simply were not that common, I did lose to a GSX stage I by a 3/4 of a car length, who I found out was really good with Buick 455's. I later found out my 400 had a lot of RA IV parts which means the guy who built it also knew a what he was doing. By todays standards it would not do as well against some of the serious machines on the road, I am talking about the newer mustangs, Camaros and chargers, which carries a design I don't care for. So I going to build another GTO, which has a design I love, and give it the power to compete with the serious muscle out there.


----------



## roadking60455 (Feb 11, 2015)

I bought a 65 Skylark GS new with a 401 nail head and didn't have any problems with Chevelles. Next was a 67 Riviera GS with the 455 and I held my own with that. Next fun car was a 69 Nova 375/396 with a TH400 that bat most anything I came up against on the street. Fast forward to today. I have a Cadillac XTS VSport AWD the will do the 1/4 in under 13 seconds, or about as fast as a stock 375/396 Nova. That's with 3.6L and twin turbos. It is fast and comfortable, but will never be as much fun as almost any of the original muscle cars. BTW, I'm rebuilding a 67 Tempest with the GTO look and I plan to have a blast this summer.


----------



## Orion88 (Apr 24, 2012)

It's neat to hear different experiences from different people who grew up with these cars. I was a couple decades late but I still love the old muscle cars. I only ever raced it once before I tore it apart, and that was to a Supercharged Mini Cooper. I only used about half throttle and he never had a chance. He knew it though. We were just having fun. Tons of rice burners tried to get me to race them but I refuse. There's nothing to be gained from that situation. I can either beat a Honda Civic with a 1970 GTO (whoopity freaking doo), or I can lose to a Honda Civic with a 1970 GTO (and die of shame). So nowadays it's hard to get a chance to compare to something of similar caliber just because there aren't many around. I'll definitely be hitting up the local drag strip as soon as she's back on the road. Hoping for a low 13 time. The 3.08's will be my limiting factor...


----------



## GTO1967 (May 28, 2016)

Pontiac did not under rate there engines. Also all HP numbers of the day were RATED not the real measured power. Having said that a 360 HP 1967 pontiac engine with 670 heads was good for about 335 hp measured on a dyno with stock exhaust. The cams were small at 214/224 at wide LS of 114 . Good tq for heavy cars. Pontiac had great street Tq. but never a lot of hp. Great street racers as the Chevy guys would put a lot of gear in there cars and just blow the tires away on the starting line. Also most Street racing took place in less than 1/4 mile.


----------

