# Optional Motor mounts ???



## danford1 (Nov 15, 2016)

Does anyone make optional motor mounts to raise the engine about 1/2" ? I'm working on a 66 Lemans, 428.
I'm having various clearance issues with a new chrome oil pan. The steering shaft rubs on it, a brake line along the cross member interferes with it and it looks like it might be touching the cross member.
If the engine was 1/2" higher, all the issues would go away.
Before I start fabbing things, does anyone make perhaps an adjustable motor mount?

In other cars I worked on the motor mount bolts were vertical and raising the engine was simple. These bolts are horizontal which complicates things.

Danford1


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## shader (Sep 7, 2016)

Never saw any adjustable or optional Pontiac motor mounts. 

Using new motor mounts or the old ones off the the 326?

Were there any clearance problems with the 326? If so, the frame could have sagged over the years, not uncommon a A-Bodies of this age; however, that would have been noticeable when the car was driven. If not, the oil pan could be the problem, especially if it is made offshore. The quality control of this stuff is far from OEM spec and even though it fit the block, the outside dimensions could be bigger than the OEM pan. Are you possibly using an extra capacity pan? You also state the steering shaft rubs on it-how? Or do you mean the intermediate/center link-the part that connects the pitman arm to the idler arm? 

Frame sag was addressed by installing a mild steel spacer plate between the cross member and the engine mount frame brackets. Usually, 1/8” was all that was needed; the need to raise the engine ½” sounds excessive and will create other problems-transmission mount will be raised, header clearance issues, etc. Look at all the places where the clearance is now tight and measure what a ½” raise will do. 

From the issues you describe I would say the pan is the culprit. I know the engine is in the car, but if possible install the 326 pan see if it clears.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Do not know of, nor heard of, an adjustable engine mount that would work in this situation.

I would put a stock pan on it to make sure that the problem is the pan and not the engine cradle that the frame mounts bolt to. According to Pinion head he has seen a number of cradles that have sagged over time or due to abuse. Also, could it be the engine mounts themselves? Maybe a different brand? 

You did not state it, but I assume it is an aftermarket pan, more capacity? Often these are not 100% in matching the factory pan. Sometimes the solution is the hammer to reshape or contour the area the steering parts are hitting. Also make sure your steering link is not worn out and the extra play is causing the problem.

Be careful as to how high you raise the engine if you go that route. It will change the angle of the transmission at the tailshaft where the driveshaft input shaft goes in. This could affect your driveshaft angle and cause problems. So if you do raise the engine, you will want to measure your drive shaft angle between the transmission and rear-end.


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## danford1 (Nov 15, 2016)

First of all. Merry Christmas guys !
Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

Yes I'm using the old mounts from the 326. Let me back up a second. This isn't my car. I'm just the schmuck that is working on it. It was a frame off restoration that was done maybe 4 years ago. Nice beautiful car. The owner drove it two summers just going to local car shows etc. He hardly put any miles on it. It was stored the last 2 years. He wanted more grunt then the 326 2 barrel had. My neighbor John built him the (1968 I believe), 428 engine while he was layed off and had time. John is back to work and no time to do the swap so he asked if I wanted to do it for some cash. So here I am .....
The old 326 mounts look to have been new 4 years ago. I "heard" all Pontiac block were the same physical size with just different internals. I "assumed" that meant if one engine bolted in a car then the other engine would bolt in as they are the same block on the outside. Is my trouble as easy as buying new stock mounts? If so, what year car with what size engine should I get them for?

Yes the new oil pan, probably China, is probably a tad bigger here and there from the old 326 pan.
Yes the intermediate/center link rubs on the pan a tiny bit. I looked at things again on a different day and can see that just an 1/8" would help a lot. No real need to go 1/2" up. The brake line issue is from the frame off resto. They ran the brake line across the cross member before the engine was installed. They used clips with a drill point screw to secure it. Murphy was there and made damn sure that the screw head and that clip were in exactly the wrong location. The oil pan hits it. See picture below. You are looking from behind the right front tire up at the oil pan and cross member. You can see the oil filter and new Ram Air exhaust manifold (more on that in a minute). The clip and screw are in the perfect wrong place. There is a similar problem on the drivers side of the cross member.

I understand the drive line angles and raising the engine could effect that. If I raised the engine, I would also raise the trans. It looks like an 1/8" spacer is all I need. Couldn't I just use some washers under the frame mounted engine mounts?

Simply installing the stock pan is not that simple in this case. More background. I'm a weak 65 year old man. I work alone. I have a small 18 x 24 bay to work in. My workbench, tools box and stuff are all around the 3 sides of the garage. I don't have a lot of room. This car is Long and takes up a lot of room. The 326 is sitting on a car wheel dolly (roller skate). It is near the right front of the car. I have to step around the bastard all time. I have a chain fall from the ceiling. I have to move the car back and forth to pull or drop in the engine. That means open the garage door and push the car out. It is winter. Opening the door means I'm working with no heat. Nuff said, I'm getting grumpy again...

For me to simply change the oil pan for a test fit would mean I have to pull or lift the engine and remove the pan. Then what? The other engine is sitting on the pan and my chain fall has an engine dangling from it. I'm alone. I can't pick up the other engine to take the pan off it. Think small space remove an oil pan, oil mess, Fighting with scrapping gaskets to install pan, new gaskets etc. Then what, after the test fit reverse the process to get the new chrome pan back on? Sorry none of that is going to happen. I have to make what is on the 428 work in the car.

Just to pull this engine and trans With the new Ram Air manifolds on is a royal pain. Those friggin manifolds are big, they hit the cross member while trying to get the engine/trans in. I'm alone remember, I lower the engine 1/2", I crawl under the car, move the trans up 1/2", lower engine 1/4", move the car, rinse and repeat. It simply does not slide in and out like the bizillion other cars I worked on. This engine trans set up hits everywhere. I already had to replace a vacuum can on the heater box I broke (real big PITA to do), I had to install a smaller power brake booster because the other one hit the valve cover. The huge manifolds meant I couldn't run the wires to the starter thru the wire tube. They have to go along the side of the engine meaning spice in new longer wires. Please don't say you "just" have to put the manifolds in after the engine is almost in. I'm old, weak and those mani's weigh a lot. I'm short. I'm leaning over the fenders with my arms straight out. Not possible to hold a thousands pounds with one hand while I casually thread in a bolt with the other hand.
This has been and continues to be a nightmare job. Every aspect is a huge fight. I'm rambling sorry...
I'm sure you guys have better things to do than read about my troubles.
Thank you for the help so far. Care to come over and help finish this job ? 

It sounds like I at least get to lift the engine to replace engine mounts and shim the lower mounts. Move the brake lines etc. Then I get to fight with getting it back in the car... again...
I can see why guys remove the front clip to work on these cars. Oh, that remove the front clip ain't going to happen either. I'm alone and can't do that plus where am I going to put it once removed?
The guys on TV make that look so easy. Two guys magically just lift it off and carry it of screen...
Not in my garage they won't...

Merry Christmas guys. Time for me to go cheer up and enjoy it with family and great friends 

Danford1


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Merry Christmas, Danford. Being a short time away from turning 70 :surprise: , I "feel your pain". Age does not treat us well and stuff that was EASY 30 years ago is now a huge PITA. Hoisting that heavy old engine up to shim the mounts, etc., is a huge pain that hopefully will go better than you hope. Thank you for your rant, I'm sorry but I so identified with it I laughed my a$$ off reading it. Thank you for a Christmas present you probably didn't mean to give.

May you and your family have a very Merry Christmas!!!!:smile3:


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Merry Christmas back at you. LOL, love the story as it sounds like one of mine! LOL. Maybe Santa will fill the fishnet stockings hung by the chimney with a 6' tall Swedish blonde who also turns wrenches and will make all your problems seem as simple as it does in TV land.

OK, if you just need a tad bit more, then shim under the engine mounts. The engine frame mounts are all the same, so no need to change these. You will have to unbolt the engine frame mount. This may require you to raise the engine slightly to get at them, but not 100% sure you have to. With the engine mounts removed from the block, you might have enough room to work with. I would then use the engine frame mounts as a template. I don't recommend using washers. You want to make a plate which will be a better load bearing surface than washers. I would go 1/4" on the plate and cut out the shape using a die grinder and cut-off wheel, or you can go to your local Home Depot/Lowes, they have a selection of metal and I might get 1/8" plate to make it easy to fab using home tools, but use 2 plates per side under the Pontiac frame mount to give you the 1/4" added height. Drill your holes accordingly. I might also use a step drill and size the holes up a drill size or two to give me some wiggle room in adjusting the engine frame mount so it will be easier to bolt the engine mount to it. Adding the shim will move the frame mounts in closer as you know, so a slight oversize on the frame mount holes & your shim(not the frame) might help. Paint your shims before installing.

You will have to figure what is best here, you could bolt the frame mount to the engine mount and then lower it down onto the frame crossmember, get your holes lined up on the frame mount to crossmember and insert the bolts and nuts loosely so the frame mount/shims can move to allow them find where they want to seat. Or, bolt the engine frame mount loosely in place, and drop the engine down just enough to put your engine bolts through the mounts, and then drop the full weight of the engine down on the mounts, and tighten. I might also add washers under the nuts used on the engine frame mount if you oversized the 3-frame/shim holes. 

You know you are going to have to relocate or redo the brake line, so they don't interfere with the pan. Just pull those bolts/clips off and use a BIG zip-tie to go around the crossmember and brake line. LOL 

You might want to also suggest to the owner of the car that the 428 is going to put a lot more torque to the rear end and a set of upper & lower control arm braces will tie these together and stiffen up the frame, otherwise, frame cracking could occur. This is just one type, like the factory style, but there are a number of aftermarket ones available as well: https://www.thepartsplaceinc.com/classiccarpartsdetail.aspx?partNumber=SU3815Z

HOPE THIS HELPS SOME! LOL :thumbsup:


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## shader (Sep 7, 2016)

dan ford, 

I remember from the your brake booster posts that this is not your car. Isn’t it fun trying to fix other people’s work?:frown3: I’m an old guy too, and as 1968 said easy stuff ain’t so easy now.

As to your motor mount question, based on the limited use of the car I would think the motor mounts would still be good. But again, this is another item that now mainly comes from offshore and the quality can vary. I’ve read articles were the rubber doesn’t appear as strong as OEM and also problems with delamination-the rubber pulls away from the metal. Your problem may be, emphasis on may, as simple as changing the mounts. Yes, Pontiac blocks are one size (the 301 somewhat an exception) that’s why you could drop in the 428 in place of the 326 and use the same mounts. Mounts for 64-74 will fit- same as for the 66 326, 68 GTO, or 69 428, etc.

Pontiac Jim beat me to the punch about the shims and I agree with what he says. The frame brackets need to be against the cross member for support. Back in the day we used washers as shims when swapping big block/small block Chevys and found out that was not the way to go. As indicated there is some room to work, but from experience it is a tight fit. There are access holes for the frame bracket bolts, but with the suspension in place it takes some creative use of wrenches and sockets. The brackets were installed prior to the suspension. 
Take a break from this project and enjoy the holidays—Merry Christmas


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

lot of interesting info above. have dealt with numerous A-body's with frame cradle sag, but nothing has been noted about the above Tempest not being able to hold an alignment & having significant frame sag.

its a well known problem that these cheap Chinese repop oil pans don't have the correct indentations in the front & create a clearance problem. an easy problem solver, since the engine is out, would be replace the pos oilpan with a decent used oilpan. not that hard to find, & a ton easier than removing frame stands... my .02 & under a 100 words. Merry Christmas.


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## shader (Sep 7, 2016)

Pinion,
In one of my earlier answer posts I asked about prior clearance problems for possible sag issues and concluded the oil pan is the problem. However, the engine is in the car and the poster made it clear that pulling the engine is not an option. This has been a nightmare project that he’s doing for someone. It’s also a chrome pan so the “hammer clearance” method won’t work. I agree with you that an OEM pan is the route to go but that's not want he's going to do. Merry Christmas Pontiac People


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Merry Christmas everyone, this thread is a great example of Christmas spirit year round with everyone helping each other!!!! And a blessed New Year for all!!!!


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

shader, with the engine in the car, it would still be much more labor intensive to have to remove each engine stand & slide steel plate spacers under the stands & rebolt them in. it is no fun getting to those bolt heads & nuts. remove the lh valve over, throttle cable, any engine to body ground cable, the head pipes if they are hooked up, then raise the engine up with the hoist to get enough clearance, then carefully remove the offending junk oilpan, & replace it.


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## shader (Sep 7, 2016)

Pinion,
Agreed, in fact I couldn’t agree more:yesnod: I remember the fun I had just trying to loosen the bolts to change the mounts. And yes the frame bracket bolts are hard to get at. Same setup on my 89 TransAm which was pain when I swapped in polyurethane mounts-on the TA the mounts bolt to the cross member. I’m not saying shims are the solution. In fact I was going to suggest the method you posted about removing the pan-did that several times-but for a number of reasons ( see danford1 post at 4:44PM) he doesn’t want to remove the pan, scrape gasket material, etc. I’ve seen good used pans on E-Bay & other Pontiac sites. Clean it up, paint it, install it-problem solved. But we can only offer suggestions. :| Time for some spiked eggnog--HO HO HO


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## danford1 (Nov 15, 2016)

Removing the pan or swapping the pan just isn't a good plan here. It isn't my car and the owner likes the chrome pan. This car is very clean and meticulously detailed. He won't like hammer dents in his new oil pan. A painted pan probably wouldn't thrill him. He has been very patient so far and stays out of the way and lets me do what I need to do. He isn't in any hurry after all it is winter. I'm the one that just wants this job done and out of my garage. I'm tired of fighting with every aspect of it. I have many more fights coming as I hook up new trans lines to a new Be Cool radiator. This is an A/C car with the huge compressor that weighs more than I do. I'm sure that will be pure joy to hold up and insert bolts. Then the exhaust system, fabbing up and mounting frame rail box plates to cover the huge holes I plasma'd in the boxed frame to relocated the trans cross member. They have to look nice and be removable for future
work. What are the chances his "fresh" rebuild on the 2004R trans will be perfect. The trans was sitting for a couple years waiting for this swap. I still have to locate some sort of a connector to fit the trans so I can wire up the lock up solenoid. I got the brake light switch from a cruise control car and will use that for disengagement.
I also really look forward into getting the parking brake cable anchor relocated as the cross member it hooked into has been moved about 6 inches rearward.

Ohhh.. I hear Santa  time to go open presents 

to be continued ...

Danford1


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## danford1 (Nov 15, 2016)

Ok Santa is gone. I hope you all had a Great Christmas. I spent mine with family and friends. It was wonderful.

Yesterday I was back in the garage. I raised the engine and was removing the motor mounts and trying to remove the lower motor mounts. I gave up on that pretty quick as like you guys said, the suspension is in the way etc.
I thought I would slot the upper motor mount bolt holes and slide them down as much as I could to raise the engine. I bought some allen head bolts to allow more movement without worrying about socket clearance. I then figured I look up and price new mounts in case I mess up the old ones. I discovered that the new mounts had part number 2255 and 2256. The mounts I was holding said 2269 and 2270.
I got the 2255 and 2256 mounts and installed them. Now I have 1/4" clearance to the steering center link 
The frame off resto shop must have put in the wrong mounts.
I relocated the brake line also. 
Now it is on to the next rounds of fights as I make new trans cooler lines, re work the exhaust, Figure out what to do about the parking brake cable, etc etc. I'm sure each step will be a fight as every other step was a fight even though there shouldn't be any fights....after all if a Pontiac engine came out a Pontiac engine will slip right back in, right ? Not...

Oh, I almost forgot. I went to put the flywheel inspection cover back on. I played hell trying to get it in there. Only 3 out of 4 bolts would line up, sort of. I couldn't get the bolts to thread in either. Then I remember seeing a big METRIC stamped on the pan of the 2004R. So I had to scrounge up some metric bolts for that. It will only get 3 bolts unless I fight to pull it off and drill another hole for the 4th bolt. That cover just doesn't slip on as everyone would expect... Some how I KNOW I'll be removing it in the future. I had to put it on so I could bend the new trans lines and allow clearance for Clarence as I was taught. I installed the same two shims that were on the starter. The way things are going I'll have to R&R the starter 16 times to get that right... I'm used to starters that go in horizontally with a couple bolts, no shimming required. Also you don't have to hold a 652 lb starter with one hand while laying on your back then thread in bolts with the other hand. Oh, did I mention I don't have a lift? I crawl around on the cold concrete floor with the car on jack stands... Happy, Happy, Joy , Joy... Time for another fun day in the garage. Talk to you soon I'm sure...

Danford1


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## shader (Sep 7, 2016)

Maybe the clearance problem *WAS* as easy as just changing the mounts.:surprise: Do you know what the old mounts were made to fit? Just wondering how the wrong mounts were able to fit the block and the frame brackets. 

Looks like you have a lot of work ahead. Good luck with the project, hope your customer appreciates it!


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## danford1 (Nov 15, 2016)

I have no idea what the 2269 and 2270 mounts fit. They look the same as the correct ones I bought.
I figured you guys would know...

Danford1


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## shader (Sep 7, 2016)

Those are aftermarket manufacturer part numbers so no way of telling. Mounts for all 64-74 V8 the same except 455, so may have been for the 455-close but no cigar!


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