# goat vs pony vs s2000



## 06pontiacgto (Nov 7, 2007)

If these cars had a race what would the outcome be because i was think about buying a honda s2000 to drive around in stead of getting all these miles on my gto.
I am not saying i am gettin rid of my gto im not i am keeping that but i am looking into buying a honda s2000 also anyone know how fast they are (horsepower) and is this a good idea?


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

If driven equally in a straight line race the GTO will win. In the twisties the S2000 will win.


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## 04YJ-GTO (Nov 7, 2007)

Honda 2000 has 240hp stock, pretty quick for a little 4 cyclinder, I drove one around for a couple days that we had on the lot, handles nice


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## Tacmedic (Feb 24, 2006)

*The S2000....*

...and the GTO are like night and day. The S2000 is a HP motor with most of the power in the upper ranges of the RPM, while the GTO relies more on the torque. I like them both for what they are. I'd like to have an s2000 for trackdays


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

As already noted, the GTO and S2000 are completely different. The GTO is quiet, comfortable, and has gobs of torque. The S2000 is noisy, rides like a buckboard, and needs to be run above 6,000 rpm to extract any performance. But....for short periods of time it is way more fun than a GTO.

I had an 05 M6 GTO. My friend has an S2000. The lack of torque is a bit frustrating but the handling, steering, braking all make up for it. I would say the S2000 is by far the most all round fun to drive.

Now that my commute consists of a short ride to a train station, I'm actually looking for an S2000 myself. As a weekend car and short drives in the real world where you can't use the power of a GTO or Vette, the S2000 is just way more fun. I'm on small New England roads all the time and the size of the Honda can make a big difference in negotiating tight roads.

I'm breaking my normal rule of buying new and looking for a used one. These things depreciate as fast or faster than a GTO. People buy them without understanding just how uncompromising and hard edged the S2000 is. Then, in less than a year, they trade them in for something more comfortable. You can find a 2006 with under 10K miles for $25K. Since I'm only going to beat the snot out of it on weekends, I'd rather pocket the extra 10 grand.

Good luck.

Oh yeah, to answer your original question, in simple straight line the GTO & Mustang win. On a road course the S2000 would eat Goat and Horse meat for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*GTO, PONY & s2000*

Compairing these 3 cars is about impossible. you can go back and forth forever about the GTO VS Mustang, but throw the s2000 into the mix is a waiste of typing space . The Honda is a decent car but can't be compaired to the othere 2 in anyway except that they both have 4 wheels and a motor. The Mustang and GTO will eat up the 2000 anywhere, on the street, on a track or even a road course. Just think back a few years when DRIFTING became popular, nothing more then putting a car on a road course and getting it to slideways hard and deep in the corners. The GTO came out on top and was king of the hill. The 2000 is ok in the corners but not enough HP to power their way out of them. The GTO and the Mustang can enter and exit the corners at a much higher rate of speed and when those corners start to straighten out just a little THEY ARE GONE and out of site of the little 2000


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

LOWET said:


> Compairing these 3 cars is about impossible. you can go back and forth forever about the GTO VS Mustang, but throw the s2000 into the mix is a waiste of typing space . The Honda is a decent car but can't be compaired to the othere 2 in anyway except that they both have 4 wheels and a motor. The Mustang and GTO will eat up the 2000 anywhere, on the street, on a track or even a road course. Just think back a few years when DRIFTING became popular, nothing more then putting a car on a road course and getting it to slideways hard and deep in the corners. The GTO came out on top and was king of the hill. The 2000 is ok in the corners but not enough HP to power their way out of them. The GTO and the Mustang can enter and exit the corners at a much higher rate of speed and when those corners start to straighten out just a little THEY ARE GONE and out of site of the little 2000


Have you ever actually driven a GTO and S2000 back to back? On a track? IMHO you are clueless about what makes a car fast. Yes the S2000 has much less torque and power than a GTO but it also weighs less by about 900 Lbs with a chunk of that coming from unsprung weight (tires, wheels, suspension components). Still, the power to weight ratio comes out in favor of the GTO.

However, power is the brute force (i.e. neanderthal) method of going fast. There are other ways. Honda has employed a racing mentality in the design of the S2000. The light weight does a lot more than improve power to weight ratios. Combined with a rigid chassis and stiff suspension the car has better grip, reduced inertia, faster reaction to road imperfections (that unsprung weight), and far less understeer. The S2000 can carry more speed deeper into a corner, brake later, and be on the gas earlier when exiting......smooooth! 
Buh bye :seeya: Mr. Goat and Pony!

What that means, is that the S2000 doesn't need to accelerate as hard as a GTO coming out of a corner because it doesn't lose all the speed it carried into the corner. While a GTO driver is stabbing the brakes and fighting the front tires to maintain control, the S2000 will sail by with a 5 mph speed differential. After the corner, the GTO will need all of it's power advantage to get back up to the S2000's speed. Ever tried to race someone rolling up beside you with a 5-10 mph speed advantage? You need a pretty large power advantage to overcome the speed deficit! And, the S2000 driver will likely never miss a shift because the Honda transmission is one of the best ever made as opposed to the T56 in the GTO that couldn't catch a 3-2 downshift in less than 2 seconds to save your life.....literally.



> The GTO and the Mustang can enter and exit the corners at a much higher rate of speed and when those corners start to straighten out just a little THEY ARE GONE and out of site of the little 2000


Yes they can, only they'll be sideways and THEY ARE GONE off the track somewhere near the apex with the front tires howling in protest until the rear end breaks loose. You continue to provide entertainment, thanks. :rofl:

Perhaps if you actually drove the cars before offering an opinion. Standing on the gas pedal on the highway doesn't count.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

LOWET said:


> Just think back a few years when DRIFTING became popular, nothing more then putting a car on a road course and getting it to slideways hard and deep in the corners. The GTO came out on top and was king of the hill.


Uh....drifting is fun but it has little to do with lapping a track quickly. It's more about subjective style and impressing the high school crowd than objective measures like lap speed. But, OK the GTO is a way better drift car than an S2000.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

I'm going to agree with Wing Nut, but only with an asterisk. It would depend on the track. There are some tracks that a high powered, looser handling car is going to have an advantage over a scalpel like the S2000. Most tracks though would favor the S2000's better handling.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

fergyflyer said:


> I'm going to agree with Wing Nut, but only with an asterisk. It would depend on the track. There are some tracks that a high powered, looser handling car is going to have an advantage over a scalpel like the S2000. Most tracks though would favor the S2000's better handling.


Granted. A track with long straights and wide sweeping turns would favor power over finesse. And I know that at some point (i.e. Z06) finesse ain't gonna be enough to overcome a massive power advantage. But cars like the Exige and S2000 are completely valid designs.....just different. And when we're talking competition like a stock GTO or Mustang vs a stock S2000, c'mon.

I tend to get pissed when someone who doesn't know what they're talking about comes out with these these generalized off the wall statements based solely on something like engine size or horsepower.

The GTO is a great value and a pleasure to drive but let's face it, the car was never intended to be a race car.....drag, road course, or otherwise.
It was a Musclecar (aka Grand Tourer). In that role, it has no equal at the price.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Wing_Nut said:


> Granted. A track with long straights and wide sweeping turns would favor power over finesse. And I know that at some point (i.e. Z06) finesse ain't gonna be enough to overcome a massive power advantage. But cars like the Exige and S2000 are completely valid designs.....just different. And when we're talking competition like a stock GTO or Mustang vs a stock S2000, c'mon.
> 
> I tend to get pissed when someone who doesn't know what they're talking about comes out with these these generalized off the wall statements based solely on something like engine size or horsepower.
> 
> ...


It's real competition is the CLK Mercedes. The problem is the GTO costs 65% of the price so a comparison doesn't quite work out right. What GM should have done was charge 40-45k for the GTO and added content like a power sunroof, a nav option,memory seats, seat heaters etc... to get it into the same ballpark as the CLK options wise. I'd bet if they did that they would have sold at least as many as they did sell and at a higher profit margin. The GTO should never have been aimed at the Mustang crowd. You should never market down, always upsell.


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## koman (Sep 25, 2006)

fergyflyer said:


> It's real competition is the CLK Mercedes. The problem is the GTO costs 65% of the price so a comparison doesn't quite work out right. What GM should have done was charge 40-45k for the GTO and added content like a power sunroof, a nav option,memory seats, seat heaters etc... to get it into the same ballpark as the CLK options wise. I'd bet if they did that they would have sold at least as many as they did sell and at a higher profit margin. The GTO should never have been aimed at the Mustang crowd. You should never market down, always upsell.


sure they could have charged more to put it in a higher bracket, at the price of a vette why not go ahead and buy the vette? in my testdrive of the s2000 i found entry and exit to be a little different than that of the goat although the comfort was similar although the s2000 afforded less space. s2000 is gobs lighter than the gto and for that it is actually focused more on performance than the gto. none of those hydraulic shocks to hold the heavy hood like the gto, besides the s2000 hood was **** lightweight. brakes were far better. you have gto sized brakes on a lighter car. shoot i am envious of the r32 brakes compared to the gto. performance upgrades on the s2000 shouldn't be that bad. gto you buy to take a nice chick out around town in due to it's comfort and packaging, s2000 you buy because you need a razor to zip through congested traffic, mustang you buy because you are just very confused.


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

koman said:


> sure they could have charged more to put it in a higher bracket, at the price of a vette why not go ahead and buy the vette? in my testdrive of the s2000 i found entry and exit to be a little different than that of the goat although the comfort was similar although the s2000 afforded less space. s2000 is gobs lighter than the gto and for that it is actually focused more on performance than the gto. none of those hydraulic shocks to hold the heavy hood like the gto, besides the s2000 hood was **** lightweight. brakes were far better. you have gto sized brakes on a lighter car. shoot i am envious of the r32 brakes compared to the gto. performance upgrades on the s2000 shouldn't be that bad. gto you buy to take a nice chick out around town in due to it's comfort and packaging, s2000 you buy because you need a razor to zip through congested traffic, mustang you buy because you are just very confused.


You buy the Mustang because you want cheap speed. The parts for Mustangs are so plentiful and the price on them is bargain basement. It's a great canvas to paint your own car on.

You actually said the same thing I was trying to say, you buy the GTO for it's luxury performance. That's the same reason you buy a CLK. They are natural competitors except no one looking to buy a CLK would consider a GTO because it's missing options and too cheap. Also think G35 coupe, BMW 6 series, Jaguar XK. Most Vette buyers wouldn't buy a GTO instead of a Vette even if they were the same price. They would buy one to enhance their fleet. 

Lets face it the GTO isn't a Mustang competitor. It's got way too much class and by cheapening it GM actually hurt it's sales and mostly it's profit potential. The Monaro in Australia is a $45,000-70,000 car. They cut options and goodies to try and sell it here to compete with a Mustang. In reality it should have been an Eldorado/Riviera replacement. Those cars were way too soft so their name tags wouldn't have worked, but GM screwed up trying to make the car cheap. I'm sure there was a bunch of 40 something and 50 something guys that didn't shop the GTO because it was a 20 year old kids car, if it would have been marketed different they would have bought it.


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

LOWET said:


> Compairing these 3 cars is about impossible. you can go back and forth forever about the GTO VS Mustang, but throw the s2000 into the mix is a waiste of typing space . The Honda is a decent car but can't be compaired to the othere 2 in anyway except that they both have 4 wheels and a motor. The Mustang and GTO will eat up the 2000 anywhere, on the street, on a track or even a road course. Just think back a few years when DRIFTING became popular, nothing more then putting a car on a road course and getting it to slideways hard and deep in the corners. The GTO came out on top and was king of the hill. The 2000 is ok in the corners but not enough HP to power their way out of them. The GTO and the Mustang can enter and exit the corners at a much higher rate of speed and when those corners start to straighten out just a little THEY ARE GONE and out of site of the little 2000


You kidding... right? Nothing in your post makes sense. :confused


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*Gto,s2000*



Wing_Nut said:


> Have you ever actually driven a GTO and S2000 back to back? On a track? IMHO you are clueless about what makes a car fast. Yes the S2000 has much less torque and power than a GTO but it also weighs less by about 900 Lbs with a chunk of that coming from unsprung weight (tires, wheels, suspension components). Still, the power to weight ratio comes out in favor of the GTO.
> 
> However, power is the brute force (i.e. neanderthal) method of going fast. There are other ways. Honda has employed a racing mentality in the design of the S2000. The light weight does a lot more than improve power to weight ratios. Combined with a rigid chassis and stiff suspension the car has better grip, reduced inertia, faster reaction to road imperfections (that unsprung weight), and far less understeer. The S2000 can carry more speed deeper into a corner, brake later, and be on the gas earlier when exiting......smooooth!
> Buh bye :seeya: Mr. Goat and Pony!
> ...


The S2000 does not have to power their way out of a corner because they CAN'T, they do not have the torque to power their way out.
I have seen these cars go back to back at Lime Rock Park in Connecticut on TEST & TUNE DAY's days and on class races, the S2000 did very well but the gto'S, mustangs, WRX's,vettes, Boxters and so on ran faster lap times. The S2000 did much better against the Solstice and the Saturn SKY. Mazda Miata , some other 4 and 6 cylinder cars except for the Little Lotus and the Masda RX which just ate it up . the the V8's were just too much for them. as far as driving them. I have a GTO and owned a 3000GT Turbo , either one of these will out run the S2000 on a road course. Faster into the corners and get them half way through the apex start to power your way out and the S2000 is nowhere in sight. I am not knocking the S2000. it is a great car. But on a track against the Mustang and GTO. BYE BYE little S2000. We will be waiting at the diner table when you hit the finish line. FOR the record. I am talking about factory cars, Street legal cars. not Road race Preped none street legal cars.


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*Gto. S200*



6QTS11OZ said:


> You kidding... right? Nothing in your post makes sense. :confused


Have you ever been to a road course on a TEST AND TUNE DAY. or on a actural race day. The s2000 does very well when running in its class. but on a Test and Tune day when they run against everyone and their brothers. There lap times are consistantly lower then the times of the V8 cars and most 6 cyl cars. They do very well when running against Miata's, some Subaru's, Soltice, Sky, 350Z's,older Nissan 240Z's and so on. The best times I have seen in their class was done by the Lotus [ Elite ] I think that is the name. The Gto's, Vettes, Mustangs and others are just too much for the S2000.


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*S2000*



fergyflyer said:


> It's real competition is the CLK Mercedes. The problem is the GTO costs 65% of the price so a comparison doesn't quite work out right. What GM should have done was charge 40-45k for the GTO and added content like a power sunroof, a nav option,memory seats, seat heaters etc... to get it into the same ballpark as the CLK options wise. I'd bet if they did that they would have sold at least as many as they did sell and at a higher profit margin. The GTO should never have been aimed at the Mustang crowd. You should never market down, always upsell.



Correct again my friend


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*S2000*

We can go back and forth with this issue to hell freezes over. we will get pros and cons all day long. But a trip to a ROAD Course, not on the street, will show you WHAT is DOING WHAT and to What. I am not going on any longer with this item.. It is like MUSTANG VS GTO. The Who is better issue has been going on since the 60s. and Please. No Negitive personal remarks. We all have a right to our own opinons.


:seeya:


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

Comparing the Mustang and GTO vs. the S2000 is like comparing hamburgers and hotdogs to sushi.... 

What the hell?? Why don't we also compare the GTO to the Chevy Suburban, and the Unimog??

"O.K. guys, Boeing 757 vs. John Deere Tractor vs. Huffy Tricycle, which do you think wins??"


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

LOWET said:


> Have you ever been to a road course on a TEST AND TUNE DAY. or on a actural race day. The s2000 does very well when running in its class. but on a Test and Tune day when they run against everyone and their brothers. There lap times are consistantly lower then the times of the V8 cars and most 6 cyl cars. They do very well when running against Miata's, some Subaru's, Soltice, Sky, 350Z's,older Nissan 240Z's and so on. The best times I have seen in their class was done by the Lotus [ Elite ] I think that is the name. The Gto's, Vettes, Mustangs and others are just too much for the S2000.


You know what Dizzy? You are a legend in your own mind. And as long as you think you're a legend, you're going to think that every thing you post makes sense. I doubt you ever seen any of the above cars on a road course. Keep believing the crap you spew out because I don't. Do you even do any road course testing and tuning? If so, let's see some videos of your past awesome road course runs in your GTO. I won't hold my breath waiting for 'em.  While you're at it, tell us more about the David Mann painting of you. :rofl:


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

It doesn't take a physicist to know that the lightest car will be able to carry the fastest speeds through a corner, entry AND exit.. 

"Most" GTO owners would know better than picking on a car 1,000 pounds their junior on a test/tune day.. This is common sense stuff...

Drifting?? LOL!!! It's an exhibition sport, and I use the term "sport" as loosely as possible, kinda like figure skating is a "sport"...


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

69bossnine said:


> "O.K. guys, Boeing 757 vs. John Deere Tractor vs. Huffy Tricycle, which do you think wins??"


A good ole John Deere tractor, why because them boys stand behind them, they can do anything just like my GTO, bygod! _Said in a vary heavy accent._


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*S2000. GTO& Mustang*

The S2000 is a very good road car, on a road couse they do very well but they lack torque the only way they get decent times is buy getting a full head of steam going into a corner, brake as little as possible and try to get the momentum up to drive out of it. With the bigger heavier cars you must use a lot of finess, be harder on the brakes in the corner and once you hit the apex. just start to power your way out.


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*s2oo0*



69bossnine said:


> It doesn't take a physicist to know that the lightest car will be able to carry the fastest speeds through a corner, entry AND exit..
> 
> "Most" GTO owners would know better than picking on a car 1,000 pounds their junior on a test/tune day.. This is common sense stuff...
> 
> Drifting?? LOL!!! It's an exhibition sport, and I use the term "sport" as loosely as possible, kinda like figure skating is a "sport"...


I used DRIFTING as a point of how the heavy cars can work the corners, to me drifting is NOT a Sport, I never said a Heavier car would be able to carry higher speeds in a corner. I said the S2000 will have slower lap times on a road course .


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*S2000*



69bossnine said:


> Comparing the Mustang and GTO vs. the S2000 is like comparing hamburgers and hotdogs to sushi....
> 
> What the hell?? Why don't we also compare the GTO to the Chevy Suburban, and the Unimog??
> 
> "O.K. guys, Boeing 757 vs. John Deere Tractor vs. Huffy Tricycle, which do you think wins??"



That is why I said it makes NO SENSE to compair American V8s to the S2000. 

Like doing a pulling contest with a KENWORTH against a MINI COOPER


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

I give up!


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*S2000*



6QTS11OZ said:


> You know what Dizzy? You are a legend in your own mind. And as long as you think you're a legend, you're going to think that every thing you post makes sense. I doubt you ever seen any of the above cars on a road course. Keep believing the crap you spew out because I don't. Do you even do any road course testing and tuning? If so, let's see some videos of your past awesome road course runs in your GTO. I won't hold my breath waiting for 'em.  While you're at it, tell us more about the David Mann painting of you. :rofl:



REAL Intelligent. You must be a legend WITHOUT A MIND, a SUPER MODERATOR calling people names and making fun of their judgement you are acting more like a STUPID MODERATOR, BAN me if you like. You are Arogant and ignorant , Tell us why you think you are so smart and why we should listen to you. Is that why you lost sponsers and members as well .Everyone on here has a right to their opinon REGUARDLESS what other people think and be able to state what they feel is correct without being jumped on and called every name under the sun. If someone is wrong, then they are wrong, If right then they are right, no reason for BABY name calling when there are disagreements.


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

LOWET said:


> REAL Intelligent. a SUPER MODORATOR calling people names and making fun of their judgement


Name calling!! What are you reading? If saying that you're a legend in your own mind is name calling then I guess I am a bad boy. I'm so sorry! Now where's the proof of the David Mann photo? :confused


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

LOWET said:


> REAL Intelligent. a SUPER MODERATOR calling people names and making fun of their judgement you are acting more like a STUPID MODERATOR, BAN me if you like. You are Arogant and ignorant , Tell us why you think you are so smart and why we should listen to you. Is that why you lost sponsers and members as well .


I had nothing to do with the so-call losing of members and sponsors so if you like you can direct your gripe to admin. And who's calling who names now? I'm going to go and cry for a minute because you called me bad names and then I'll decide what to do with you later.


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*[email protected])))*

ENOUGH OF THE HATE & TELL GARBAGE


:cool


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

DIZZY1 said:


> REAL Intelligent. You must be a legend WITHOUT A MIND, a SUPER MODERATOR calling people names and making fun of their judgement you are acting more like a STUPID MODERATOR, BAN me if you like.


No....Please don't ban him again! I'm enjoying the spelling.



DIZZY1 said:


> Have you ever been to a road course on a TEST AND TUNE DAY. or on a actural race day.


No, what is an actural race day? Is that a South American rodent? How fast are acturals? What do you feed them? Bullsh!t?



DIZZY1 said:


> Is that why you lost sponsers and members as well .


Oh thank God.......I thought he lost sponsors!



DIZZY1 said:


> Everyone on here has a right to their opinon REGUARDLESS what other people think and be able to state what they feel is correct without being jumped on and called every name under the sun.


Is that the new deodorant from Gillette? It keeps you dry REGUARDLESS how wet she is. It keeps you smelling good REGUARDLESS how full of bullsh!t you are.


Sorry I couldn't help myself  Well....actually.....I didn't try.


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

:rofl:


Wing_Nut said:


> No....Please don't ban him again! I'm enjoying the spelling.
> 
> No, what is an actural race day? Is that a South American rodent? How fast are acturals? What do you feed them? Bullsh!t?
> 
> ...


:rofl: :lol: :rofl: I think I just dribble in my undies. I gotta go change my Pull-up now. Oh, you missed "Arogant".  I guess he was saying that I was an insect that's a tramp (A-rogue-ant). :rofl:


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*s2000*



Wing_Nut said:


> No....Please don't ban him again! I'm enjoying the spelling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't call me Dizzy. enough of the games


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*S2000*

As far as the DAVID MANN Painting, Never said it was a David Man Painting of me, Said it was ME on a David Mann Painting, just like the below, Me on a DAVINCI Painting, It it cool what a copy artist can do.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

LOWET said:


> As far as the DAVID MANN Painting, Never said it was a David Man Painting of me, Said it was ME on a David Mann Painting, just like the below, Me on a DAVINCI Painting, It it cool what a copy artist can do.


Scary too!


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*Painting,*

Just goes to show you. Ya never know who is looking over your shoulder. Actually the Artist that did this is great. You supply them with the back ground scene and also a photo of yourself and they take it from there.


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

LOWET said:


> The S2000 is a very good road car, on a road couse they do very well but they lack torque the only way they get decent times is buy getting a full head of steam going into a corner, brake as little as possible and try to get the momentum up to drive out of it. With the bigger heavier cars you must use a lot of finess, be harder on the brakes in the corner and once you hit the apex. just start to power your way out.


LOWET,

Don't get me wrong, I certainly don't want the thread to regress back to shouting... 

But have you ever road-raced?? Your above-quote is just babbling, it doesn't make any practical sense from a speed-through-corner standpoint... Doesn't matter if you've got 1,000 hp under the hood, your corning speed will depend on the handling of the car, and you can only "exit" as fast as the car will hold the power, which in a GTO, isn't much compared the line and the speed much lighter cars can attain.

The advantage of power over handling depends entirely upon the course, so there is no "definitive" statement you can truthfully say that heavier higher-power cars have an advantage...

And drifting has nothing to do with showcasing how a heavier car can handle the corners... It has everything to do with how, properly set up, you can make a Peterbilt hang its a$$ out controllably... You're not connecting any dots with drifting. You could drift with an Austin Mini, or a Ford Crown-Vic, it just doesn't matter, it's not a timed event, it's just a show of control...

Usually the fastest car on any road course is the car that can carry its speed through the corners the best, the car that scrubs the least amount... Yes, you can compensate for heft with horsepower, but the horsepower required to make-up the time lost in braking and then catching-back-up is extreme, exponential...

Why do you think Porsche has such a dominant history in road racing with 6-bangers, mopping up far-more-powerful Corvettes for eons??

Yes, now I'M generalizing, which you just can't do. Every road course is like a snowflake, no two are the same.. But in general, assuming I'm a decent driver (I like to think I am, I've held my own on the track before, and mixed it up with a pro or two in my lifetime...) and the other guy's a decent driver, I sure wouldn't want to have any money on my GTO vs. an S2000 at Sebring, or Road Atlanta...

What matters here is power to weight ratios... The GTO has the advantage (around 9.5/1 vs. 12/1 for the Honda), but I don't think that's enough of an advantage to compensate for an almost 1/2-ton of extra pork tugging the GTO towards the berm in every corner, and the resulting lower-corner-speeds...

Look at the Lotus Exige S... It's a road-course MACHINE GUN, with all of 220 h.p.... The tighter the course, the more dominant and unbeatable it is... Many local road-course (smaller circuits), you'd be flustering F430's, GT3's and even Z06's with the little Lotus...

So go ahead and pledge your allegiance to the GTO for street driving and drag-racing.... But when you start talking road-racing, you don't seem to really know all you're talking about... Taking a GTO to one of those tracks is a bit like taking a sumo wrestler to an ultimate-fighting match... He's strong and imposing, but he's going to get both arms broken in 5-seconds by some stringy looking guy with a bad attitude....


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

Well put 69!!!!!!!


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

fergyflyer said:


> Well put 69!!!!!!!


Ditto!


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

Uh huh. Thass what I'm talkin bout dog.


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*S2000*

My only road course action was when I went to a BARBER racing school at Lime Rock park in CT about 8 years ago. Just basic stuff. How to read a line, when to brake and not to brake, brake in and power out of corners and so on using their cars. After we finished we were all allowed to come back with our own cars, rent a little track time and put what we learned on their cars and do it with ours. I had a 3000GT. did OK and then I swaped my car with someone and we tried each others car. His was a heavier older Mustang with the 5.0, both ran completely different from each other on the course . Mine felt very light and a little unstable in very tight corners, his felt more sure footed. On big sweepers my car felt very composed when deap in a turn where as his felt like it was going to slide out from under me. I did learn for sure that the heavier cars were very easy to oversteer in the corners and loose traction and the lighter cars were better planted. As far as times, my over all lap times were slightly quicker in his.To me the lighter car was easier overall to drive and the heavier car had to be muscled around with more driver effort, The difference between our 2 cars were about 500 pounds I think.


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## Tacmedic (Feb 24, 2006)

LOWET said:


> My only road course action was when I went to a BARBER racing school at Lime Rock park in CT about 8 years ago. .


OFF TOPIC... What are they using as school cars these days and how much was the five day school when you went through? I did the 5 day in '88 and we used BMW M3's and Formula Fords. I came back and did several track-days in the Fords that year and the next.

In 1988, it was $1500.00 for the five day Racing School. I have thought of doing it again, but I know it is quite a bit more than that now.

(BTW, I am not getting involved in the ongoing argument, because it has to be the most ridiculous argument/ comparison I have ever seen)


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

Tacmedic said:


> OFF TOPIC... What are they using as school cars these days and how much was the five day school when you went through? I did the 5 day in '88 and we used BMW M3's and Formula Fords. I came back and did several track-days in the Fords that year and the next.
> 
> In 1988, it was $1500.00 for the five day Racing School. I have thought of doing it again, but I know it is quite a bit more than that now.
> 
> (BTW, I am not getting involved in the ongoing argument, because it has to be the most ridiculous argument/ comparison I have ever seen)


I would like to do it also. If I had that kind of money laying around. Also the Bondurant one too thats a good one.


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## fiddler_red (May 9, 2007)

*Wings*

ANYBODY WANT TO FIGHT??? LET'S GO!!!

Just kidding. I bought the GTO after looking at so many cars. I never thought of it as a track car, wouldn't consider it. I wanted a 4 seater road trip cruiser for long journeys, and It's by far the best of all I looked at for my intents and purposes. I mean BY FAR, light years away from anything else. I just finished a long trip from Idaho to Minnesota, 20 hours of driving in 2 days. Talk about cruising in comfort at 90mph with a couple 130mph sprints through Montana to make those miles go by oh-so-painlessly! Might I add, at an average of 24mpg!!! I love this car for what it is, a comfortable cruiser with balls.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

*LOWET Is Right I Apologize*



LOWET said:


> Compairing these 3 cars is about impossible. you can go back and forth forever about the GTO VS Mustang, but throw the s2000 into the mix is a waiste of typing space . The Honda is a decent car but can't be compaired to the othere 2 in anyway except that they both have 4 wheels and a motor. The Mustang and GTO will eat up the 2000 anywhere, on the street, on a track or even a road course. Just think back a few years when DRIFTING became popular, nothing more then putting a car on a road course and getting it to slideways hard and deep in the corners. The GTO came out on top and was king of the hill. The 2000 is ok in the corners but not enough HP to power their way out of them. The GTO and the Mustang can enter and exit the corners at a much higher rate of speed and when those corners start to straighten out just a little THEY ARE GONE and out of site of the little 2000





















*I've done a little research and decided that LOWET is right. *

These lightweight girly cars with high revving Honda iVTEC engines are no match for a big heavy car with a hugemongous V8. Why this little piece of crap probably can't outrun a V6 let alone a V8.

If a GTO would leave an S2000 in the dust, I'll bet this little pile of sticks would be blown off the track from the bow wave of the GTO passing it mid-corner in a magnificent smoking drift. 220HP, 145 Ft-lbs......what a joke. This thing can't possibly accelerate out of a corner like an LS2.

I can see now that the Formula 1 guys have it all wrong.


Wanna put a Z06 up against this little 4 banger on a tight track? How about an F430? 911 Turbo? 

How bout a Bugatti Veyron with 1000 HP (4,200 lbs)

Anyone?


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

I had a video of the Ariel Atom spanking a motorcycle on a road course. I don't remember the track or what type of bike it was but it didn't stand a chance against the Atom.

EDIT:
Here it is;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaWoo82zNUA


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## Zulu (Jan 21, 2005)

It amazes me sometimes how people are so blinded by that big american flag waving in their face, that they fail to recognize PHYSICS.

It's obvious this guy has never truly seen a decent driver in an S2000.

and a Mustang?
HAHA

I remember seeing the Mustang guys trailing behind the *Miatas *on track days!
lol

S2000 are a blast to drive.

I used to bang a girl that drove a black S2K, and I drove the dogsh!t out of that thing (when she was at work)...and that's the only way to really enjoy one (when it's not yours)...lol
That way you can constantly wring it out at vtec and bounce that bitch off the rev limiter so you can keep it in its sweet spot.

Poor girl, she probably had no idea how badly I abused that thing.

Anyways, LOWET, you're kind of misinformed...sorry to say it, but maybe you've never actually seen an S2K autocross.

If you have, maybe you were looking at a Miata by mistake, and thought it was a S2000.

FC20 engine is F1-based, and the car weighs as much as a grain of sand.
do the math.

Oh...and again....PHYSICS > you.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

I love that video. I loved the GTO as a big comfy cruiser but the Atom, Exige, or S2000 in that order are just way more fun. Much tougher to live with but you'll need plastic surgery to remove the grin.


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

Where are you, Lowet? It looks like quite a few members agree that your knowledge of road course racing and the S2000 is way off. Oh well! We still love you. Group hug time!


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## fergyflyer (Apr 18, 2005)

gm4life said:


> I would like to do it also. If I had that kind of money laying around. Also the Bondurant one too thats a good one.


Try using Spring Mountain. It's over by Las Vegas, Pahrump to be exact so it's close to you. http://www.springmountainmotorsports.com

They have specials from time to time. When they have a low scheduled class turnout they post specials on their website and you can end up getting a class for a real reasonable amount. You being in Edwards can run over there pretty easily and take advantage of that.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

fergyflyer said:


> Try using Spring Mountain. It's over by Las Vegas, Pahrump to be exact so it's close to you. http://www.springmountainmotorsports.com
> 
> They have specials from time to time. When they have a low scheduled class turnout they post specials on their website and you can end up getting a class for a real reasonable amount. You being in Edwards can run over there pretty easily and take advantage of that.


Thanks. It's now a bookmark.


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*s2000*



Tacmedic said:


> OFF TOPIC... What are they using as school cars these days and how much was the five day school when you went through? I did the 5 day in '88 and we used BMW M3's and Formula Fords. I came back and did several track-days in the Fords that year and the next.
> 
> In 1988, it was $1500.00 for the five day Racing School. I have thought of doing it again, but I know it is quite a bit more than that now.
> 
> (BTW, I am not getting involved in the ongoing argument, because it has to be the most ridiculous argument/ comparison I have ever seen)



I did a 3 day course. The cost was just over $2,000.00 and they used Subaru's and Formula cars also.. I just checked SKIP Barbers Web site. it is about $3,000 for the course now. I did not check Lime Rock Parks web site to see what they are using at that track . I think Skip Barber had 2 sets of trainers and cars so they could be a different tracks at the same time


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*S2000*



gm4life said:


> I would like to do it also. If I had that kind of money laying around. Also the Bondurant one too thats a good one.


Lime Rock Park and Watkin's Glenn are the closest tracks for me. I an sure they still offer classes. When I took mine they offered ONE DAY and 3 Day Driving Course and a racing Course. The driving course was more for normal skill inhancement and the racing class was for racing. Don't know what they have to offer any more


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## 69bossnine (Aug 9, 2007)

I hate to prolong this LOWET, but here's the skinny on curb weights between 3000GT's and fox-body 5.0 Mustang GT's


The 3000GT twin-turbo with all-wheel-drive was a bit of a porker at 3,800 lbs...

The naturally-aspirated 3000GT's were far lighter, but still (depending on trim-level) came in around 3,200-3,300 pounds... Depended on which model you had, you didn't say what you had exactly...

A stock 1993 Mustang GT hatch was right around 3,250 lbs... Subtract another 50 pounds for an LX 5.0...

If the car you drove was a 94-95 SN95 with the 5.0 (they went to 4.6 modular in '96), add another 50 pounds tops, and some better handling traits than the flexible-fox...

So, in reality, a 3000GT weighs the same, or more, than a 5.0 Mustang


So the entire premise of "why" you think a supposedly heavier V8 powered car would be more effective at the track is based on a false assumption.

The other guy's Mustang was no heavier than your Mitsu... The reason his would oversteer in corners is that those cars were notorious for being nose-heavy, and tail-happy... They could be made into decent track cars, but you had to be a prudent driver, at least with your right foot in the middle of any corner...

3000GT's were better balanced, lower-powered, and with IRS, were much less apt to "step out" in the middle of a corner.... That's not an issue of weight whatsoever, it's balance, power and suspension geometry...

So anyhow, I'm not trying to be a pain in your ars, just pointing out that your notions regarding what works and what doesn't on the track are based on some flawed assumptions...

BTW, I've got a '93 Stealth awd twin-turbo with 17,000 original miles, like new...


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## Tacmedic (Feb 24, 2006)

LOWET said:


> Lime Rock Park and Watkin's Glenn are the closest tracks for me. I an sure they still offer classes. When I took mine they offered ONE DAY and 3 Day Driving Course and a racing Course. The driving course was more for normal skill inhancement and the racing class was for racing. Don't know what they have to offer any more


You are correct. The five day gives you more emphasis on racing and more seat time in the open wheel cars. I have to say that it was worth every penny. I did it 20 years ago and it has modded every car I have had since with the best mod possible. A much better driver.


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## koman (Sep 25, 2006)

69bossnine said:


> LOWET,
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I certainly don't want the thread to regress back to shouting...
> 
> ...


for those of you who are trying to call low et, dizzy i don't think it could be so, because this argument by 69boss would have been easily known about from a person with "30" years of drag racing experience like dizzy proported to have. there's a thing called waste of motion that's well known in drag racing. such as picking your nose up and trying to carry it through the quarter or a suspension that can't transfer the weight and keep it transfered (90/10 front shocks and 30/70 rear shocks) or a suspension that pops up at every shift. the less you have to decel or overcome opposing forces the faster you can go...always on any course unless it's a braking course. i personally give my goat a thumbs down when it comes to massive powerful brake system. the rear disc look like tea saucers where as most great handling cars have dinner plate sized rotors. shoot even the cts has much larger rear rotors. feels like i'm that guy that has lifted weights all his life and has to get in the shower with other scrawny fellows and the statement of "you can grow your muscles but you can't grow the main platter" becomes evident. now if i could only make my fat pig more efficient i'd be happy. meanwhile i'll take my mustang on the road course over the fat pig although the irs is amazing over the solid axle and i'll take an atom with a s2000 heart supercharged. 0-60 in 2.6 seconds if i can shift it. trying would be over half the fun.:cheers


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*S2000*



Tacmedic said:


> You are correct. The five day gives you more emphasis on racing and more seat time in the open wheel cars. I have to say that it was worth every penny. I did it 20 years ago and it has modded every car I have had since with the best mod possible. A much better driver.



I have been thinking about trying Richard Petty's NASCAR school. They go to a lot of different tracks all over the country. Never been on a high bank track and I think it would be fun. Get the feel of G FORCES and the feeling of being pushed higher up on the track as speeds increase


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

*LOWET Driving School*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjJFZogtA4A

Hey LOWET here's yer school. S2000 at Laguna Seca. Count the cars the S2000 driver passes. Now count the cars that pass the S2000. Hint....you'll need less than 1 finger for the second task.


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## NJG8GT (Nov 14, 2007)

*Gto*

I have read somewhere, that the reason GM stopped making the GTO was due to a three year contract they had with the Monaro?! or whatever the name is!! And something to the effect that the monaro!!"Aussie" was being changed at the end of the three year contract. I'll search for the article. I believe it may have come from edmonds.com or something. Anyone heard of that article?

This is not the article, but interesting to read:

www.cars.com/go/crp/research.jsp?ma...logtype=21&section=reviews&mode=&aff=national

HAAA!!!! I found it, for those interested please read:

It was discontinued because GM Holden in Australia, which made the GTO for GM North America, is in the process of discontinuing their current V-body vehicles for their new VE chassis. The original contract between GMNA and GMH was for 3 years of GTO production, after which time GMNA would start building Holden VE-based vehicles here in North America. 

Those vehicles were behind when that plan was shelved last March. It has subsequently been reborn (the new Camaro is part of that plan, but the vehicles we are getting are no longer exact copies of the VE chassis). Holden discontinued the Monaro at the end of 2005 since its LS1 motor no longer met Australia's emissions standards for 2006. Holden continued to build LS2-based vehicles for Holden Special Vehicles and Pontiac, until June 7 of this year. 

The GTO was NOT discontinued because of slow sales; it was discontinued because its three-year contract was up. Holden and GMNA actually looking into continuing GTO production for 2007 and 2008, but the GTO did not meet the new 2007 smart airbag standards, and it would have been a significant cost (plus many crash tests) to re-engineer the vehicle to do so. In light of the end of the V-chassis and the expense, they elected to let the 3 year contract run out. 

GMH built approximately 14,000 2006 GTO's for GM (in 8 months of production), after ~11,000 2005's (in 9 months of production) and ~16,000 2004's (in 11 months of production)... 

Pontiac may get a vehicle off the new Global RWD platform that's being used for the Camaro. They might also get another imported Holden. Whether the vehicles are coupes or sedans are not known. One rumor is that the next GTO will again be a rebadged Monaro, built in Australia (if so, MY2009). Another option may be that Holden's SS-V sedan comes here as a Pontiac (MY 2008 or 2009). Another possibility is that GMNA may produce a Pontiac coupe or sedan on the same assembly line as the Camaro, but not until the 2010 model year. 

I think we'll know more after the North American International Auto Show in Detroit in January. I will be there to see whatever Pontiac concept is shown (at this point, it's pretty certain there will be something there).


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

NJgoat said:


> I have read somewhere, that the reason GM stopped making the GTO was due to a three year contract they had with the Monaro?! or whatever the name is!! And something to the effect that the monaro!!"Aussie" was being changed at the end of the three year contract. I'll search for the article. I believe it may have come from edmonds.com or something. Anyone heard of that article?


Holden has moved the commodore et al onto the Zeta architecture, GM's new low cost world rear drive platform. The first variant to hit US shores will be the Pontiac G8 which looks to be a very nice car and a good value. Any GTO replacement will likely be Zeta based. Or, if we're very lucky, GM will market the GTO upscale on the new Sigma platform.


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*s2000*



NJgoat said:


> I have read somewhere, that the reason GM stopped making the GTO was due to a three year contract they had with the Monaro?! or whatever the name is!! And something to the effect that the monaro!!"Aussie" was being changed at the end of the three year contract. I'll search for the article. I believe it may have come from edmonds.com or something. Anyone heard of that article?
> 
> This is not the article, but interesting to read:
> 
> ...


When the 04 GTO came out I think sales were a little slow because a lot of people just did not like the style but when the 05 came out with Dual exhaust, Hood Scoopes and LS2 motor , interest started tp pick up. When I made up my mind to get one the dealer supply around here was not very good.I checked out several places and if they had one it was usually GREY or Blue, Not the color I was looking for. Several Dealers told me they get them now and then. They kind of just trickle in. When I got mine in Feb 2005 I purchased it at BUICK PONTIAC GMC of Milford Connecticut. They told me I was the 4th person to get one from them since they came out [ 05 model ]. I don't think I have seen more then 5 of them anywhere since I purchased mine except for when I go to my Speed Shop, There usually a couple there from different states like New York or Rhode Island getting work done on them.


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*s2000*



Wing_Nut said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjJFZogtA4A
> 
> Hey LOWET here's yer school. S2000 at Laguna Seca. Count the cars the S2000 driver passes. Now count the cars that pass the S2000. Hint....you'll need less than 1 finger for the second task.


Check out the BONDURANT racing school [road racing ] they use VETTE'S and GTO'S
As far as your one fingered task, you know what to do with it


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*s2000*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUAzdl8Hbcc

GTO on a road course, handles very well and as you can it makes speed in and out of the corners. Like I said the S2000 is a great car, put both cars on the same track at the same time with drivers of equal skills. I still think the GTO will come out on top. But if I am wrong. I am wrong.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

LOWET said:


> Check out the BONDURANT racing school [road racing ] they use VETTE'S and GTO'S
> As far as your one fingered task, you know what to do with it


Since we're going there, of course I know what to do with it,,, I'll point it at Dizzy1 and laugh,,,, :rofl: 

By the way, the video shows the GTO being passed by a single Camaro :lol: and then returning the favor. That's it!

Not a very strong argument for the Goat. The Camaro has a solid rear axle and a chassis made from the same material as Gumby. Those damned lightweight cars. But at least the GTO was racing something in it's league.


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## koman (Sep 25, 2006)

LOWET said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUAzdl8Hbcc
> 
> GTO on a road course, handles very well and as you can it makes speed in and out of the corners. Like I said the S2000 is a great car, put both cars on the same track at the same time with drivers of equal skills. I still think the GTO will come out on top. But if I am wrong. I am wrong.


 that f-body started to put some distance on the v-body near the end of the video. amazing how a 20 year old platform walks off from a newer platform like that. with a little suspension tuning i have a very good feeling that my fox-body would leave my v-body in the dust with the same amount of suspension tuning. even with the 225 hp and 300 ft-lbs versus 400 hp and 400 ft-lbs. the more amazing part is how easily i can spin the tires on the lower hp car.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

http://www.racingschools.com/home.shtml

Here ya go Dizz,,, Start signing up.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

LOWET said:


> Check out the BONDURANT racing school [road racing ] they use VETTE'S and GTO'S
> As far as your one fingered task, you know what to do with it


"The Bob Bondurant School of High Performance Driving teaches thrill seekers and current or aspiring racers how to drive like the pros! Our racing school features a 60 acre purpose-built racing facility - something other car racing schools can't claim. Our racing courses range from four hours to four days and we have beginner driving courses designed for people wanting a thrill of a lifetime and advanced racing courses for experienced racers or professionals. Our GM supplied driving school features the 2007 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe and Corvette ZO6, Cadillac CTS and CTS-V, Pontiac Grand Prix GXP, and the Pontiac GTO."

Grand Prix.......Grand Prix..... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Now I know they're serious and not just working through some fleet arrangement with a big manufacturer.

Pretty sure GM made em take the Pontiacs to get the other cars.


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## LOWET (Oct 21, 2007)

*S2000*



Wing_Nut said:


> "The Bob Bondurant School of High Performance Driving teaches thrill seekers and current or aspiring racers how to drive like the pros! Our racing school features a 60 acre purpose-built racing facility - something other car racing schools can't claim. Our racing courses range from four hours to four days and we have beginner driving courses designed for people wanting a thrill of a lifetime and advanced racing courses for experienced racers or professionals. Our GM supplied driving school features the 2007 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe and Corvette ZO6, Cadillac CTS and CTS-V, Pontiac Grand Prix GXP, and the Pontiac GTO."
> 
> Grand Prix.......Grand Prix..... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
> 
> ...


I willing to bet that every driving school cuts a deal with different cars makers so they will showcase their product. But let's get back to the begining of this thread. IN A RACE, WHO WOULD WIN, GTO,S2000 or Mustang and somehow the focus was centered on Road Racing. So for the record for ALL AROUND USE, the GTO and MUSTANG will out gun the S2000. That is the end of my input on this thread . THANKS EVERYONE no bad feelings from me because of the difference's of idea's and inputs .


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

LOWET said:


> I willing to bet that every driving school cuts a deal with different cars makers so they will showcase their product. But let's get back to the begining of this thread. IN A RACE, WHO WOULD WIN, GTO,S2000 or Mustang and somehow the focus was centered on Road Racing. So for the record for ALL AROUND USE, the GTO and MUSTANG will out gun the S2000. That is the end of my input on this thread . THANKS EVERYONE no bad feelings from me because of the difference's of idea's and inputs .


They say that as you get older, your capacity for learning diminishes. Sadly, LOWET provides evidence that this is true. Hey cheer up, at least ya got Viagra to look forward to if the arthritis in yer hands don't get any worse.


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## koman (Sep 25, 2006)

LOWET said:


> IN A RACE, WHO WOULD WIN, GTO,S2000 or Mustang


what type of race? drag race- gto hands down, road race- s2000 hands down, leg pulling race - mustang hands down. i can pull way more leg in my mustang than i can in my gto. s2000 i only see the ex-wives of corvette drivers driving them(women of the age of 48-60)


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