# timing chain cover question



## clarkaim (Jun 10, 2009)

Ok, I have my 455HO gto being worked on at a local shop, the head gasket blew and the head needed work as a result. Well here's were my problems start. It's at this shop here in Parkville MO because a local gear head recommended the place. I don't have the tools or the time anymore to tackle this in the short run and I need to have a mechanic do the work for legal reasons. I am attempting to recoup the costs from the classic car dealer I bought it from, thus the need to have it done at a shop. That's the background.

Well, work is done, motor runs, but they can't time it as there are no marks on the timing chain cover. Knew that going in, I don't know why none are on this TC cover, but they just aren't. Well the shop owner, an arrogant know it all, hates pontiacs thinks they are junk, has a couple chevy muscle cars type jerk says he has to find a timing pointer to bolt on. Well I get to thinking, he's going to discover he has to put a whole new timing cover, involving a lot more work than I am wanting at this time, like pulling all the junk off the front of the motor, ie, the water pump etc. So I call the guy and remind him he was going to do the top dead center thing w/ one of those lights that , not sure what they are called, but can work like this w/out a mark. The guy starts giving me all this grief, that it's a bolt on part, that he's a mech, etc. Well, that is enough, I hate this guy now, but I need him to say that the engine was not as advertised etc in an affadavit, so I don't want to piss him off, but at this point I just want to go get my car and finish the rest of the work myself. 

So, anyone ever seen a pontiac w/ a little timing chain cover like a chevy small block? How do you deal w/ know it alls who assume your gm car must be just like a small block chevy, a completely totally different design? My friend has one of those lights, should I just get the damn car and finish myself? I know of no way to bolt on a timing pointer on a pontiac and I sure as heck don't want to pay for all the major work necssary to install a new tc cover. Any thoughts?


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

If it were my car I would end the relationship with a mechanic that I did not like or trust, have him produce the affidavit as promised. Take the car home and start collecting the parts including timing chain, gears, new cover, stainless divider plate, flow kooler water pump, seals and gaskets.

This would be a nice winter project that you could take your time and do it a little at a time. Here is a link to Ames Performance, they have all the parts that I mentioned and are competitive with their pricing. Download and save the GTO catalog and you can find the parts starting on page 174.

just my humble opinion,


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Good advice above, except I'm sure o5 meant "timing chain"! I would get the car out of there. I've seen more good Pontiacs damaged by mediocre, dime-a-dozen chevy mechanics than I care to remember. You CAN run your engine and time it without a pointer on the cover. Just get it so number one piston is at Top Dead Center compression stroke. Now look down at your pulley. See the groove? Where it lines up on the cover, that's 0 degrees. You can mark the cover with a marker, paint, etc. at TDC. Now start it up and hook up and adjustable timing light. You can move the distributor so that the pulley groove moves away from the mark. dial your light to about 6 degrees advanced, and move the distributor until the goove is lined up with the mark you put on the cover. Lock it down. You're now at 6 degrees BTDC initial.


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## clarkaim (Jun 10, 2009)

thanks guys, I'm there with you. What are those called, "dial back" timing lites? already way ahead of ya on that one. Thats how I was going to do my self w/ my friends lite. the thing that makes me so mad is this guy came recommended by another gearhead friend. The machine shop that did my heads is a friend/neighbor of my buddy w/ the timing lite. I could have had this car on teh road 7 weeks ago myself, this guy has dragged his feet for so long, I forgot what the damn car looks like (not really, I'll try to upload a pic). Its annoying to no end how condescending this guy got with me. I was merely trying to suggest that he return to his original intent to do the dialback lite method himself, note that I have NO intention of paying for a new tc cover. I will maybe pull the block in the winter anyway for a shortblock rebuild anyway and can do it then. In the meantime, I want to drive my car!! it's been a month + of good weather I could have been enjoying the car. Now it's starting into fall rainy season, it goes in the garage. ehh, I need a beer.


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## crustysack (Oct 5, 2008)

suks when you get a tech that thinks he knows everything and turn into a jerk when there is a problem that requires a little real work and thinking- I have 1 tech that I can truely say is one of the smartest, ,most honest and fairest mechanics around- and because of that his business is through the roof- even in these tuff times-- look around some more for a respectable shop. Because 1 thing everyone needs is an honest mechanic, and clearly if your guy says your car is junk( because its not a chevy) he is a RETARD- that car is VERY nice


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

geeteeohguy said:


> except I'm sure o5 meant "timing chain"!


Thanks for the correction,


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

We all knew what you meant, 05. Thing is, nowadays, just about everything does have a timing belt. It gets confusing between belts, chains, carbs, fuel injection, distributors, coil packs, etc.!! At least ist's confusing for me! What is weird is that all of the Pontiac timing covers I've seen are aluminum, and have the timing marker CAST into them. You would have to die-grind it off or break it off....not really easy to do. Would love to see a photo of the timing cover!!


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## clarkaim (Jun 10, 2009)

I'll take one when I get the car back. I think I probably should just go take it and time it by ear until my friend shows up w/ his dialback lite. Yeah, it is definitely not there. I wonder if it was an aftermarket cover at some poiint? Maybe they put a different, maybe more massive harmonic balancer? 455's and their high torque, don't they do better with one? there is not any indication that there was one onthe cover either.


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

Here's the timing marks on my 455. Like GTOguy said, it's part of the timing cover casting. It is not bolted on seperately. Hope this helps.....


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## clarkaim (Jun 10, 2009)

yep, I know where they are. my goat is notmy first one. I thing it mjust have asome older aftermarket cover, theres is nothing not even any scarring from removal. Only reason I could thing is it does have a bit of a heftier harmonic balancer, so maybe that was the original change reason. That being said, my issue is more to the fact that the mech/shop now doesn't want to use a dial back light which is super easy to use if you mark tdc. I knew to do that when I took it to him. He knew to do that, said he would, now he's searching for a bolt on mark, which means all he'll come up with is buying a new TC cover and charging me the ton of labor to do it, then he'll discover that it probably wont fit the big balancer. So a ten min. timing job will turn into another week plus to get my car back, more money, and hell, it's been 8 weeks as of now, 5 of which were waiting on the heads to come back from the machine shop. Oh and it's labor day weekend so I can't just go get it til tuesday and another thing, there is a bitchin car show out at kansas speedway this weekend, I could have taken onto the NASCAR track and gone way over 100mph legally, I guess I can look at my car alot this winter in the garage.


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

Do you have any pictures of your engine, i can't find pictures of a 70 455 without the timing mark;


__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

And I've never heard about aftermarket timing covers being available, either. Did I miss the aftermarket timing cover craze, or were they even ever available? This is getting strange!!


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## clarkaim (Jun 10, 2009)

all I know is there is no timing mark on the engine. why I can only speculate. Motor is XF code 455, "64" heads, no timing mark


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## Joe 49 (Aug 29, 2009)

I have a 76 "400" Bonneville block. I'll have to look but if I remember correctly prior to storage, it had a seperate timing tab. Not cast into the cast cover like earlier years. Might be mistaken though. I'll take a look and come back.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

All Pontiac v8's I've dealt with over the years have a timing tab or pointer cast with the cover: all one piece. Your '76 "400" Bonneville block could well be an Olds 403. Is the oil filler tube in front of the block? If so, it's an Olds motor. They have a different cover with a detachable timing tab.


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

geeteeohguy said:


> All Pontiac v8's I've dealt with over the years have a timing tab or pointer cast with the cover: all one piece. Your '76 "400" Bonneville block could well be an Olds 403. Is the oil filler tube in front of the block? If so, it's an Olds motor. They have a different cover with a detachable timing tab.


:agree

In addition, the pontiac power steering pump, alternator and fuel pump will be on the front driver side of the block, the oil filter will be on the rear passenger side and the A/C compressor if equipped will be on the front passenger side.

A picture would be nice, could the restorer have stamped a SB chevy block with Pontiac 455 letter codes? Look for the casting number behind the #8 cylinder, is it 9799140?


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## clarkaim (Jun 10, 2009)

I can't do any of that until I get the car back or go look at it maybe tuesday. No it's a Pontiac block, I know enough to know that. Chevy's don't do their water pumps like pontiac either, at least from what I know, which I'll admit I could be wrong about. Ive never seen a chevy big block that looked at all like a pontiac. That being said, I was at the car show referenced earlier and saw a 63 389 motor in a grand prix that had a literally a little sharp pencil like pointer on it. My buddy with me speculated that maybe somethng like that was put on my motor and it may have broke off was filled in and painted over. Maybe an earlier TC cover. My motor actually came out of a 70 grandprix, so it could have been busted off then. I suppose to could be an oldsmobile engine, my experience is very limited on those, but I really kind of doubt it. All the ps pump etc stuff is right where it's supposed to be, Its also not a chevy because of the way teh distributor does NOT go thru the intage manifold, but is set up exactly lke any of the other pontiacs I've owned or family has owned, and frankly thats a lot of cars. Until I went to college, thats all my family owned. Now Im a die hard Ford guy for new cars, won't look at a japanese car and even call my family members who own them a bunch of communist treasonous bastards. All in fun of course. I am a former Marine and I would rather an overpayed american union worker have a job than someone in China


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## Joe 49 (Aug 29, 2009)

Hello,
Not an olds block. I'll have to dig out the timing cover and take a photo.
Its truly a 400 Pontiac.


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## clarkaim (Jun 10, 2009)

*got it back here are pics of timing mark*

he installed.. Note, this was not there at all and he bolted this on. it's in the right place, but clearly it's not what he claimed, which is OEM. Said he got it thru his connections in the old car world. I just wanted to get the car and get out of there at this point. 

Took it for a cruise, still rattles like a chain in the cylinders unless you give it a goose. I'm guessing it's running real lean. only had 1.5 turns out from dead bottom on teh fuel mixture screws ( has an Edelbrock carb) and to top it off the damn trottle lever on the carb sticks. Idle went to liek 3000 rpm after warming up, backed the screw All the way out, no rpm changes. then I tapped on it w/ a screw driver, idle drpped to stall out. I've got to replace the return spring on the throttle cable, spray around w/ some carb cleaner, I don't know, diddle with it until it loosens up, reset the idle, then tweek the mixture till the pinging goes away. Also when I turned it off after getting home from cruise, dieseling. HMMM. Well I'm thinking ole' Glen put some 86 octane pump gas in it as there is a 10 dollar fuel charge on my invoice. 

So, here are the pics, never saw a brass colored timing mark before. probably plastic, doesn't matter, he didn't charge me for it. 
What do ya'll do about octane issues? a good booster or do you go to the airport to buy gas? Oh it moves out like a mutha for sure, so the machine shop did get the heads rite.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

That's a plastic timing mark from an '80's GM car. See the tube on it? That's where we used to put the magnetic pickup probe to check the timing in the early '80's! If it rattles at light load, and diesels, it's running hot in the combustion chambers. You need: a richer mixture, lower compression, or better fuel. My '67 used to do the same thing until I dropped the compression about a point and a half. The reason it doesn't ping when you goose it is because you're dumping lots of cool fuel into the cylinders. I run Octane booster in my '65 'cuz I have to., and I lowered the compression on my '67 'cuz I drive it more. If you keep driving it rattling, you WILL destroy the engine. It will break the lands right out of the pistons.


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## clarkaim (Jun 10, 2009)

I am going to try enrichening the fuel mixture. I thought that piece looked funny none like ive ever seen. I have to unstick the the throttle llever anyway today, so I'll tweak the air fuel mixture screws abit see if that fixes it. 

Is that 104 maximum a decent octane booster or do you recommend anything else?


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## clarkaim (Jun 10, 2009)

Well, I put a bottle of 104 max w/ some 91 octane, opened up the fuel air mixture screws a couple turns, pinging seems to be gone. did get a couple of short rattles but only 2wice last evening after running it a while, and only like one little maybe ping. seems to be fixed onthat level the idle issue was fixed w/ a stiffer throttle spring

Runs like a bat out of hell now for sure. I have a tangential question. According to all the books, the 455 HO is a 360 horsepower, 500 ft/# torque motor. But, the books say that the XF code 455HO was a 370 hp motor. What is the diff/reason why? Mine came out of a 70 Grandprix. My cousin Stacy inherited her dad's 69 gp sj w/ a 428 that was a monster fast/necksnapping accelerating car. (on a lighter footnote, stacy was 2nd runner up to Miss Tennessee in 1983, wish she wasn't my blood cousin, but hey it was tennessee and all) 
Did they make these stronger motors for an ostensibly bigger car? (though I don't thing GP's were much bigger than goats when they are side by side


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