# Harrop Hurricane I.R. manifold.



## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

Anyone else heard of/seen this (on an LS motor)? Its *eight* 55mm throttle bodies tied together with a linkage. Interesting equipment.





































Harrop's website lists it at around $3500 Australian. Hard to justify without seeing some proof of gains on a dyno or track, IMO.

It also says "will require tune, possibly MAF-less". I don't see how you could hook up 2 MAFs to the ECM, looks like it would definitely need to be SD. I'm curious to know where the MAP sensor goes.

I'm also not a fan of the intake beyond the manifold itself... I'm a tray hater :lol:. I think losing those two cone filters for a pair of modified Svedes would be an improvement.

What do you guys think of this thing? Seen anyone with it?


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## dustyminpin (Jun 19, 2006)

I've seen a Kinsler like that at an auto show up in Chicago. Was over 5 grand. 8 stacks going straight up instead of out on an angle like the one you found. I just don't see it. That's supercharger money... As far as anyone seeing that thing over here stateside, you'd probably have better luck finding a right-hand-drive Holden Sport Ute at a local cruise-in.


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## jpalamar (Jul 22, 2008)

I bet throttle response is amazing, but can't realyl see that setup being all that benificial HP wise.


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## Northeast Rod Run (Oct 29, 2008)

I've seen a bunch of their set-ups like that, on everything from the LS to much more exotic builds, but they have all been in very highend build old musclecars. Talking to the builders of those cars, it seems like it the car really needs to be an "over the top" build to justify the work needed to run one of those intakes properly. I just think it looks too out of place on a pretty much stock car


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## 06BLACKGTO64 (Oct 30, 2010)

Individual Throttle body (ITB) setups are not for use on a stock motor, mainly because it does flow air much better than any other setup and will require more fuel.. the website attached is for a Science of Speed setup but explains how it works and what type of modifications are suggested..Hope this helps ScienceofSpeed > FAQs


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## 87GN06GTO07IRL (Aug 10, 2009)

06BLACKGTO64 said:


> Individual Throttle body (ITB) setups are not for use on a stock motor, mainly because it does flow air much better than any other setup and will require more fuel.


Engine size and cam determines that waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than an intake.


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

I could see justifying this on a stroked LS with 230+cc intake runners up top and a cam with lump over ."600. I'm an N/A fan, just because it's fun to be stubborn.


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## Mike_V (Mar 10, 2006)

I'd love to have that, but I too checked on prices years go. NEVER have I changed my mind so fast on anything.


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

This company makes a wide range of ITB stuff  GM Manifolds - Kinsler Fuel Injection

















Looks like they even have one for my Grand Am!:willy:


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

I was thinking, this kind of thing would be a monster to tune, but if money was no object, you could do some real manufacturer-level (IMO) research on N/A theory with a standalone ECU that could handle 8 MAPs & WBO2s.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

FYI: The BMW M3 engine uses individual runners.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)




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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

GM4life said:


> FYI: The BMW M3 engine uses individual runners.


Sounds about right. I was actually watching videos of some old Jaguar and Ferrari V12s with Weber carbs, and a few vids came up on SBC/LSx projects.

It caught my interest that people were doing this with EFI, and I investigated from there.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

Any new information about these intakes? This maybe the direction I go when I build a road course car. Seems like the C6R and the V8Supercar series uses IR intakes. Something I wouldn't mind just to experiment with. Stock intakes work just fine but it would be nice to do an experiment. I wonder do you have to use an aftermarket ECM like a MOTEC?


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

Last I was reading over at LS1tech, a few people have been having problems with the throttle plates binding in the bores. Sounds like a temperature vs clearance issue in the 1st gen manifolds, but there's not many around to say if it's been resolved or not.

From what I understand these share a common vacuum plenum to allow you to run a single MAP sensor, so I wouldn't think a standalone would be necessary.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

When I read about this intake years ago, I've heard that they was difficult to tune. I wonder if that was just a select few. I'm in no market for this set up, I'm just curous to see how this would work. I got some spare LS1 parts except for the short block I would like to build up a nasty high reving engine one day.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

I'm obsessed with ITB's on a LSx motor. I would like to do a custom setup on a destroked 5.0 or 5.5 LSx. 

Too tall for the GTO, this is a nice homemade one.










Stock BMW M3 setup.


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## t147 (Jul 27, 2011)

OMG! I want it.


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

They must have a common plenum or vacuum line to get a proper MAP reading. Seems like the big problem people have with these is that they lean out and bog too easily, and they need to enter power enrichment more quickly. The best part is, people say there's no such thing as ram air, but the correct length trumpets on these setups will generate a ram effect... similar to the effect LTs have on exhaust flow.

Sure would be a great project, and I'd bet trophy worthy at shows.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

Don't know how the others are built, I'm pretty sure they have common ports. The first video the guy explained he is using a common port for the MAP. I'm more interested in it because its not common and for a high reving race car. I'm not a show person. I wonder is the bog problem have to do with the size of the TB or tumpet, being to big affecting velocity/cylinder filling, like having too big of a carburator on a car.


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

It must have something to either do with the injector flow rate tables or the fact that they're using stock injectors. I'd switch up to 42s on an ITB just out of preference, plus then you should be set if you want to hit it with a little bit of dry spray. There's lots of guys on the dirtbike board that have successfully swapped 650 carbs onto a 250 bike with proper jetting. Something like going from a 31mm to a 42mm carb.

I see a lot of these setups using short 3-4" runners, and I know the Kinnslers are something like 6". Shorter trumpets are more for high RPMS, longer are for low end TQ. I wish I could find that video of the Yamaha R6 that had runners that moved in and out with engine speed, that was real trick.


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## 87GN06GTO07IRL (Aug 10, 2009)

Am i missing something is this just going to suck in hot air? I can only see a set up like this working with a hole in the hood or no hood. God only knows what you'll suck into the engine without an air filter too. I don't see the point to this set up. Throttle response might be better but what else will it do? Looks expensive and complicated too.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

Poncho Dan said:


> It must have something to either do with the injector flow rate tables or the fact that they're using stock injectors. I'd switch up to 42s on an ITB just out of preference, plus then you should be set if you want to hit it with a little bit of dry spray. There's lots of guys on the dirtbike board that have successfully swapped 650 carbs onto a 250 bike with proper jetting. Something like going from a 31mm to a 42mm carb.
> 
> I see a lot of these setups using short 3-4" runners, and I know the Kinnslers are something like 6". Shorter trumpets are more for high RPMS, longer are for low end TQ. I wish I could find that video of the Yamaha R6 that had runners that moved in and out with engine speed, that was real trick.


Friend just installed adjstable velocity stacks on his R1.

Its more diameter than length with the ITB's that will have negative effect I would think. The length is like tuning an intake plentum. Long runners have better bottom to mid range and short runners have better top end.


87GN06GTO07IRL said:


> Am i missing something is this just going to suck in hot air? I can only see a set up like this working with a hole in the hood or no hood. God only knows what you'll suck into the engine without an air filter too. I don't see the point to this set up. Throttle response might be better but what else will it do? Looks expensive and complicated too.


A properly designed setup has an airbox like the BMW and race cars. The system is expensive if you look at the Hurricane and Kensler setups they are boocoo money. Just like the saying is you got to pay to play. I don't have the money to do a setup like that but I would like to toy with some ITBs.


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

87GN06GTO07IRL said:


> Am i missing something is this just going to suck in hot air? I can only see a set up like this working with a hole in the hood or no hood. God only knows what you'll suck into the engine without an air filter too. I don't see the point to this set up. Throttle response might be better but what else will it do? Looks expensive and complicated too.


Hood mods would be necessary. Also, there are filter socks for the trumpets.


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## AlaGreyGoat (Jul 6, 2006)

I really don't see the hype on these. They don't produce any boost to the air charge. They can only flow at 100% effiency, at best. For the money, I'll add a Maggie and go for about 160% effiency(at 7 PSI Boost).
Just my $.02

Larry


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

I didn't know there was a hype on this. I've been there doing that with a Maggie. For road racing the Maggie looses efficiency after its heatsoaked. Stock intake will do just fine, but like I said I would like to do something different, if I could afford it.


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

AlaGreyGoat said:


> I really don't see the hype on these. They don't produce any boost to the air charge. They can only flow at 100% effiency, at best. For the money, I'll add a Maggie and go for about 160% effiency(at 7 PSI Boost).
> Just my $.02
> 
> Larry


No hype, just science. An overlooked science, because like you say, FI is a more popular/easier/played out option. Proper length trumpets have been known to generate up to 2PSI, typically 8". Not much, but again not B.S., either. $1400 for a 102mm common source manifold vs $3000 for ITBs vs $8000 (not including install or tuning) for a TVS, I think plays out properly.

The key is supplying each cylinder with an equal amount of air to match the equal amount of fuel it recieves. In theory this would negate the differences seen in compression numbers at say, 100,000 miles because all cylinders are fed the same amount of charge and produce an equal amount of work for the energy supplied. This is something even forced induction can't do.

To be 100% efficient, each cylinder should have it's own MAP, MAF, IAT, and Lambda sensors to get the full benefit. But that would require a pretty advanced PCM and a bit of money on the owner's part. However, this would be the most efficient N/A setup you could get in terms of power and economy because all variables are eliminated at each cylinder rather than "guessing" an average for the entire engine.


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## AlaGreyGoat (Jul 6, 2006)

I agree, having individual sensors on each cylinder intake woul be of benefit.
A n/a engine charges on the down stroke, PULLING the air into the cylinders. Pulling creates a vacuum, not a boost. Full race n/a engines get 98-99% charge into the cylinders. I can't believe you can get 2 PSI boost on any intake n/a. That's approx a 115% efficiency. Heads, cams and exhaust also effect cylinder charge. The best n/a intake in the world is only going to
flow the amount the piston pulls into the cylinder.

Larry


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

At high RPM boost is generated because the pulse syncs come closer together which create a scavenging effect similar to what you get with LTs. The stopping of the flow from the previous intake event causes the air to pile up behind the valve and in turn builds pressure because of the high velocity. But that's up around 7-8000r's. Remember, this setup is a straight shot directly into the cylinder with no bends like a common plenum manifold.


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## GM4life (Mar 18, 2007)

When systems like ITB are used in race cars most systems use a MOTEC or simular ECM that has thousands of channels. ITB's on the average jo car have to make due with the stock ECM. Thats why you have to use a common port for the MAP. Different stroks for different folks. All have advantages and disadvatage there is no one cure all. For NA to reach the potential of FI is nearly impossable with simular CI, unless you add more CI witch is not allways possable or feasable. For example some brag about an engine that can produce 100hp+/L. The ZR1's LS9 produce over 100hp/L, not easy for NA engine to get those numbers. So FI is the way to go to acheave big numbers with the CI you have to work with, along with driveablity and whatever else. Yes NA works on a vacuume that one of the reasons why the intake valve in larger than the exhaust. Also with a ITB setup you don't have to worry about cylinders "steeling" air from the other in line. FI feeds the engine with more volume than the engine can use. This ends up being a restriction called boost.

Both of you are right. Poncho you'll make a good teacher.


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## nicayotte (Apr 4, 2011)

jpalamar said:


> I bet throttle response is amazing, but can't realyl see that setup being all that benificial HP wise.


take the same money for a s/c or turbo and you get the response with a cool sound too and some power to go with it :lol:


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## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

jpalamar said:


> I bet throttle response is amazing, but can't realyl see that setup being all that benificial HP wise.


Thing is almost nobody runs these on LS motors, but they seem to be used quite a bit more on SBCs & BBCs and there's enough of them out there in the 10's with these.

You go over to LS1 and they hate on these like no other, but that comes down from mostly the supercharged A-holes who are either afraid of what they don't know or dislike an alternative to their "be-all-end-all" blowers.

There's not a lot of research or results on these on top of a Gen III/IV block, so it's tough to say what they'll do. I just know I'm going to find out for myself.


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## 8mydust05 (Aug 29, 2011)

That thing is a work of art.


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## Nightmare2003 (Jan 4, 2010)

It looks like a giant pair of nipples in your engine bay. It's cool and unique but for that money there are better options. There's two others floating around for LS engines that I've seen, if I can figure out how to post pictures. One is built in California for "off road engines" that is a single intake, and I found another that was a twin long-runner carbon fiber intake that would pretty much jut out of the hood of the GTO. Looked like a weird plaid spider with nipples.


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