# PHS Docs and Dealer Invoice Confusion



## Mikereps (Mar 24, 2015)

I received my PHS documents which are very cool. What I don't understand is that by all indications, my car was made the 3rd week of December in 66 per body tag code 12 C. The dealer invoice sheet shows an invoice date of 12/20/5. I assume that is 1965. Why the difference in the numbers? Was this car made in 65 or 66? Why was the dealer invoiced in 65? The VIN shows it as as a high number car 78353 if I am reading it right. What am I missing. See the pics attached. Pretty confusing!


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

Looks to me like the car was invoiced Dec. 20 65 but it was a 66 model.
Zone 12 is St. Louis and the dealer was Thomas Pontiac in St. Louis.
It was built in Pontiac, Michigan.

The 42 denotes it is a GTO and I think that started in '66, in 65 I believe it was an option code on the build sheet.


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## Mikereps (Mar 24, 2015)

Thanks for the quick reply but I am still confused. If you factor the high VIN number on my '66 and indications on the body tag it was 3rd week of December I would think that it was built in 66. The invoice shows 65. I don't get it. Not that it helps much, but I uploaded the window sticker recreation from PHS. Still confused about everything except for the fact it is a 66 GTO and it came from Thoms Pontiac in St. Louis.


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

'66 models began production in August of '65. Pontiac home plant was most likely the first Pontiac A body assembly plant on line, with other Pontiac A body plants changing over to new tooling within days. Considering more '66 GTO's were built than another model year, and, I d bet more Tempest and LeMans, as well, it does not surprise me that your Pontiac plant VIN is 178xxx by mid Dec of '65.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

They would start building the '66 models late in '65 so they could have the new models on the floor in '66.
Looks like the original buyer paid for a '66 in '65.
I don't think they start with new serial numbers each year and they just carry over?
Maybe someone else more versed in these cars will chime in.

Edit: Looks like PH answered your question while I was typing.


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## Mikereps (Mar 24, 2015)

Awesome guys! That all makes sense. I have to admit I was just a little bummed that the build sheet wasn't more complete (eg. tires, seats, etc.). But considering the records are50 years old I suppose I am lucky to get what I did. Any idea how many 66 factory AC cars were produced?


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Another thing to consider, the number on the trim tag in front of BDY, notes your GTO is the 8504th '66 Pontiac A body 2 door hardtop body built (not completed car) out of the Pontiac assembly plant for the '66 model. The other preceding 8500+ 2 door hardtops were mixed between previous body builds of Tempests, LeMans, and GTO 2 hardtops. However the preceding VIN numbers also included Pontiac A -body converts, 2 door posts, 4door sedans and 4 door hardtops, and even A-body stationwagons. I'm not sure if Pontiac B series were included or not, that would really add a ton of production.. 

5 years later, for '71 models, do know Pontiac GrandPrixs contributed to the "running sequencial VIN number, at least at the Lakewood plant. A GTO VIN of 242371A120000, could easily have easily been followed by a GrandPrix VIN of 276571A120001, then a T-37, then a LeMans...


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## Mikereps (Mar 24, 2015)

I thought everything after the 1 indicated production sequence. Not that it matters but now the production date being in 1965 begins to make sense. Thanks! 

Still curious about production numbers on factory AC 66 GTO hardtops. Don't know if I will ever find out or if it adds any value to the car, but it does seem pretty uncommon from all searching and cars I looked at before I bought this one.


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Goat Roper said:


> They would start building the '66 models late in '65 so they could have the new models on the floor in '66.
> Looks like the original buyer paid for a '66 in '65.
> I don't think they start with new serial numbers each year and they just carry over?
> Maybe someone else more versed in these cars will chime in.
> ...


Model year introduction was usually in early to mid September. When my Dad (career GMAC employee) ordered a new Pontiac in the '60's, he nearly always ordered them early and they arrived in September, very early in the model year, then he would get a small discount off his employee cost (below invoice) by having one of the Pontiac zone reps drive the car for the first 3,000 miles, and as a family we typically got the car in mid to late October. By the zone reps driving the cars, they were in and out of Pontiac dealerships all the time, and any little problem was quickly addressed and corrected.

Some of my favorite times with my Dad were riding with him a few times in the summer going to dealerships as he performed his job w GMAC in dealer relations. As a 6-7 year old boy, some of the dealer principals could spot the look in my eyes, and would take me back to their office and pull out a small light brown cardboard box with a plastic promotional (model). Great times for a young guy!


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

In the south, factory AC was fairly common on early automatic 4bbl GTO's. It wasn't till '67 models, that automatic GTO production really took off, and in the South and Southwest, factory AC on '67-72 automatic GTO's was very common.


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## pjw1967 (Mar 10, 2014)

Mikereps said:


> I thought everything after the 1 indicated production sequence. Not that it matters but now the production date being in 1965 begins to make sense. Thanks!
> 
> Still curious about production numbers on factory AC 66 GTO hardtops. Don't know if I will ever find out or if it adds any value to the car, but it does seem pretty uncommon from all searching and cars I looked at before I bought this one.


Don't know of any source other than PHS for info on options. Maybe we could start a Go Fund Me to help PHS pay for some students to comb thru the build sheets to create spreadsheet stats. If the 4,000 +/- members of the GTOAA pony up $20 bucks apiece, $80k ought to get the job done. BTW, I have a '67 post coupe with p/s, p/b, a/c, 4 sp, tinted windshield only, and NO console. That's gotta be a one of one.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

pjw1967 said:


> Don't know of any source other than PHS for info on options. Maybe we could start a Go Fund Me to help PHS pay for some students to comb thru the build sheets to create spreadsheet stats. If the 4,000 +/- members of the GTOAA pony up $20 bucks apiece, $80k ought to get the job done. BTW, I have a '67 post coupe with p/s, p/b, a/c, 4 sp, tinted windshield only, and NO console. That's gotta be a one of one.


Mine is a '67 PS/PB/AC auto 400 with a bench seat with the fold down armrest and the shifter on the tree.
It also has the original smog pump something all the other GTOs I looked at had removed.
I have been told the bench seat is a rare option and most of them were removed in the '70's, tossed out and replaced with buckets.
My car was special ordered by a woman and she kept it for 41 years then her kids sold it to a doctor when she passed away who had all the cosmetics done.
I am the 3rd owner and I have gone through the suspension and all the mechanical just waiting for my engine to come back from the builder so I can finally drive it.


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## pjw1967 (Mar 10, 2014)

Goat Roper said:


> Mine is a '67 PS/PB/AC auto 400 with a bench seat with the fold down armrest and the shifter on the tree.
> It also has the original smog pump something all the other GTOs I looked at had removed.
> I have been told the bench seat is a rare option and most of them were removed in the '70's, tossed out and replaced with buckets.
> My car was special ordered by a woman and she kept it for 41 years then her kids sold it to a doctor when she passed away who had all the cosmetics done.
> I am the 3rd owner and I have gone through the suspension and all the mechanical just waiting for my engine to come back from the builder so I can finally drive it.


Yours is another one of one. Is it a 2bbl car? Our new '67 post coupe was silver with a black vinyl top, p/s, Rallye gauges, posi, console. I doubt it was a one of one, but now I think the go fund me idea has merit. I would like to know how many were like our first and how many were like mine now. My friend here has a '67 HO, no p/s or p/b, 4sp, posi, console. I wonder if there are two '67's left that are alike out there.


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## Mikereps (Mar 24, 2015)

Pinion Head that was an incredibly cool story. Thanks for the share!


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

pjw1967 said:


> Yours is another one of one. Is it a 2bbl car? Our new '67 post coupe was silver with a black vinyl top, p/s, Rallye gauges, posi, console. I doubt it was a one of one, but now I think the go fund me idea has merit. I would like to know how many were like our first and how many were like mine now. My friend here has a '67 HO, no p/s or p/b, 4sp, posi, console. I wonder if there are two '67's left that are alike out there.


No, a 400 engine, Rottenchester 4bbl, TH-400HD tranny with a 2.93 pegleg rear end.


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## pjw1967 (Mar 10, 2014)

Goat Roper said:


> No, a 400 engine, Rottenchester 4bbl, TH-400HD with a 2.93 pegleg rear end.


Mine had a 3.23 peg leg which was the normal rear for an a/c car. It blew up, so now have a 3.55 Auburn locker.....


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## El Monte Slim (Sep 8, 2014)

Pontiac built 96,000 GTOs for the 66 model year.

It almost seems that the odds of _any_ car being one of one are low, though I am sure they exist. The _better_ odds are that your car may be the only one that has survived! Would be interesting to know how many of the 96,000 are still with us.

I would love to see statistics on how many of each color or color combination were produced as the owner of a very unusual one myself.


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## Goat Roper (Oct 28, 2014)

pjw1967 said:


> Mine had a 3.23 peg leg which was the normal rear for an a/c car. It blew up, so now have a 3.55 Auburn locker.....


 I tried to get a limited slip unit for my rear end but got so much conflicting info on it I just blasted it, painted it and put it back in.


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

In the very late 80's, an old GTO friend & I went in together on four '67 GTO project cars, along with a lot of nice sheet metal, options and a complete rebuilt '67 WT engine from another non AC burgundy 4spd GTO. The closest to completion '67, was a Kansas City plant built montego cream/gold painted top 2 door post, gold buckets. It had been recently framed off, suspension rebuilt and frame painted. Factory options included Turbo 400, console, PS, Pwr drums, all soft ray glass, AC, clock, remote mirror. Nice solid car, ended up throwing in some more detail parts, sold it in early 90's. 

During the same time, early 90's, I came across over half a dozen complete '67 2 door post GTO's in several large country yards that i bought out of for many years. All were for sale as adventuresome projects, yet all but one of these '67 GTO post cars were economy 400 2bbl/automatic/ bench seat vinyl top cars with AC. Very similarly equipped, obviously value leader type builds for dealer inventory. 

Good friend in MN brought in a really solid 67 GTO HO post car from CA about 6-7 years ago and kept it stored in CA til it headed east 2 years ago. It's getting a very high level restoration, neat car, PHS documented 400 HO, 4spd, console, posi, gauges, with a few trinket options. Fremont car built with CA emissions (smog pump and closed aircleaner).

Personally, I have always really liked the post cars, ESP the stripper built GTO's factory built with the highest performance option engines and transmissions. Having missed my chance on a '67 factory RA post GTO, have two later factory high performance LeMans post cars.


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## devildawg (Apr 27, 2012)

Pinion head said:


> Another thing to consider, the number on the trim tag in front of BDY, notes your GTO is the 8504th '66 Pontiac A body 2 door hardtop body built (not completed car) out of the Pontiac assembly plant for the '66 model. The other preceding 8500+ 2 door hardtops were mixed between previous body builds of Tempests, LeMans, and GTO 2 hardtops. However the preceding VIN numbers also included Pontiac A -body converts, 2 door posts, 4door sedans and 4 door hardtops, and even A-body stationwagons. I'm not sure if Pontiac B series were included or not, that would really add a ton of production..
> 
> 5 years later, for '71 models, do know Pontiac GrandPrixs contributed to the "running sequencial VIN number, at least at the Lakewood plant. A GTO VIN of 242371A120000, could easily have easily been followed by a GrandPrix VIN of 276571A120001, then a T-37, then a LeMans...


I don't believe the body numbers assigned were mixed between models.
I did some extensive research on body sequence numbers for Tempest , LeMans / GTO's out of the Kansas plant. I have a 65 Tempest custom sports coupe that did not have the cowl I.D. tag when I bought it. I wanted to have a tag made with the correct body number but it's impossible to get that information. PHS does not have that. I put together a spread sheet listing all the cowl tag information Iv'e been collecting over the years hoping to get in the ballpark for my body number. It looks to me that each models series ( 33 Tempest 35 Tempest Custom , 37 LeMans / GTO and then body style 27 = sport coupe , 37 = hardtop , 67 = convertible ) all had a sequential body number assigned separately. In other words the first gto convertible would be assigned number 1 the first Tempest convertible would also be number 1 and so on. I'll try and attach the document with all my research that shows the build dates and body number for each model cowl tag I had in my files.


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## 66COUPE (Jul 23, 2021)

Mikereps said:


> I thought everything after the 1 indicated production sequence. Not that it matters but now the production date being in 1965 begins to make sense. Thanks!
> 
> Still curious about production numbers on factory AC 66 GTO hardtops. Don't know if I will ever find out or if it adds any value to the car, but it does seem pretty uncommon from all searching and cars I looked at before I bought this one.


I agreed that the phs docs are somewhat lacking in what you really get, if your firewall tag and inner door tag are in good unmolested condition and clearly haven’t been messed with and your car has the stuff the docs have highlighted, engine stamped with the numbers shown I don’t think you can argue too much but it’s a little cheesy just a highlighted generic page. You would think with modern technology they could narrow things down better, for instance I haven’t seen another like my 66
post coupe, a/c , ps, automatic, 3:08 rear t.glass, seat belts, column shift. Blk ext w/cameo roof, parchment int. built in Fremont California. Granny’s Goat. !


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