# Sad time ahead



## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vi...=email&utm_content=18_December_26_HagertyNews


----------



## 11th Indian (Feb 15, 2018)

Idiotic article to me. Either you are an enthusiast or an investor. This is an example of whats killing the hobby. 
The value is in the enjoyment of ownership. If you have 20 to 50 grand and are looking for an investment, with very rare exception, a muscle car is one of the poorest choices you can make. (Even with the recent 1000 point market adjustment)

There can be so many reasons why the market is “soft”. Maybe many “Second generation” GTOs are already registered and insured and thus not generating new policy quotes? Maybe people are tired of paying astronomical prices for mediocre or incorrectly restored cars at auctions that have a 10% premium built into the transaction and hired shills to pad the bids. Over 216,000 GTOs were built from 68 to 72, there is no shortage. Though only 2% were Judges originally, there must be close to 10 of all GTOs on the road are Judges now…. Anybody with some rusted out hulk and PHS doc and a vin tag thinks their gem is worth a fortune, maybe that’s also affecting sales?


----------



## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Seen many lemans/tempest at car shows turned into Gto's with badging only. With people walking by admiring a Gto While I am shaking my head. Look for a chevelle on ebay. Everyone is a SS. Only a 138 or build sheet car is a real SS. Glad ours have the 242. There was a 70 chevelle SS convertible 4 speed with a 454. Ls6? at a car show. And I told my wife that the stars would have to been aligned to have all that in a car. Then he drives it to a mediocre car show. Even the judges give them a pass. So that don't help the cause any.


----------



## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

11th Indian said:


> Idiotic article to me. Either you are an enthusiast or an investor. This is an example of whats killing the hobby.
> The value is in the enjoyment of ownership. If you have 20 to 50 grand and are looking for an investment, with very rare exception, a muscle car is one of the poorest choices you can make. (Even with the recent 1000 point market adjustment)
> 
> There can be so many reasons why the market is “soft”. Maybe many “Second generation” GTOs are already registered and insured and thus not generating new policy quotes? Maybe people are tired of paying astronomical prices for mediocre or incorrectly restored cars at auctions that have a 10% premium built into the transaction and hired shills to pad the bids. Over 216,000 GTOs were built from 68 to 72, there is no shortage. Though only 2% were Judges originally, there must be close to 10 of all GTOs on the road are Judges now…. Anybody with some rusted out hulk and PHS doc and a vin tag thinks their gem is worth a fortune, maybe that’s also affecting sales?


I do not not agree with your opinion . I will use my son for snd example. He grew up working on muscle cars with me. He loved the GTO and bought a 69 that needed a total rebuild. Fast forward three years the car is gone . Parts were hard to find and were priced at twice the price of chevy parts . We went to many Pontiac folk who have hoarded 1000 of parts but would not sell any, and if they did it would be the junk.for crazy money. You can say I'm wrong but I'm not. The young kids don't want to play the games . This had nothing about making money for these kids. I have said for years there are barns full of parts (gto) but some reason these folks won't sell. Fast forward to today and no one wants the parts so now what? I guess they will just rot away . I will take my hits for this but it the way it is snd the way it's been with PONTIACS for many years. I'm sure if you compare the average age of a GTO owner to other muscle cars it not close .(much older) We are getting old and have now lost a generation of young adults who wanted in but were not allowed. I will add that I have tried over the years selling parts to forum member that I could have held for a fair price. All I wanted wast a hand shake it was for them and not for resale . This is my opinion only . Doug


----------



## GTOJUNIOR (Aug 7, 2011)

dd68gto said:


> I do not not agree with your opinion . I will use my son for snd example. He grew up working on muscle cars with me. He loved the GTO and bought a 69 that needed a total rebuild. Fast forward three years the car is gone . Parts were hard to find and were priced at twice the price of chevy parts . We went to many Pontiac folk who have hoarded 1000 of parts but would not sell any, and if they did it would be the junk.for crazy money. You can say I'm wrong but I'm not. The young kids don't want to play the games . This had nothing about making money for these kids. I have said for years there are barns full of parts (gto) but some reason these folks won't sell. Fast forward to today and no one wants the parts so now what? I guess they will just rot away . I will take my hits for this but it the way it is snd the way it's been with PONTIACS for many years. I'm sure if you compare the average age of a GTO owner to other muscle cars it not close .(much older) We are getting old and have now lost a generation of young adults who wanted in but were not allowed. I will add that I have tried over the years selling parts to forum member that I could have held for a fair price. All I wanted wast a hand shake it was for them and not for resale . This is my opinion only . Doug


I was one of those kids in the early eighties working on a 1967 GTO and couldn't agree more with this statement. I stopped going to swap meets and such in the late eighties mainly due to seeing the same greasy/greedy dirt bags bring their already decades old "NOS" parts in their crusty condition GM/Delco boxes year after year after year and always maintaining their quest for Top-Top dollar. If you dare ask any intelligent question(s) regarding said parts you got the usual jag-off response about their rarity and bla bla bla but never a straight answer. And heaven forbid you try to haggle or talk package deals. The good guys didn't have to play the swap game their reputation made them well know and easy to locate and deal with, sadly they were in smaller number compared to Mr Swap-meet. 

Fast forward and as you said no one wants these SAME parts and the market share don't give a shit about the few hold outs. 
You can still see/find remnants of these jag-offs pushing those parts on EPAY which is very entertaining to say the least. 
Now Mr vendor aren't you glad you massaged your pretty little parts/boxes all those years. 

Harsh? You bet. Reality sux.


----------



## 11th Indian (Feb 15, 2018)

dd68gto said:


> I do not not agree with your opinion . I will use my son for snd example. He grew up working on muscle cars with me. He loved the GTO and bought a 69 that needed a total rebuild. Fast forward three years the car is gone . Parts were hard to find and were priced at twice the price of chevy parts . We went to many Pontiac folk who have hoarded 1000 of parts but would not sell any, and if they did it would be the junk.for crazy money. You can say I'm wrong but I'm not. The young kids don't want to play the games . This had nothing about making money for these kids. I have said for years there are barns full of parts (gto) but some reason these folks won't sell. Fast forward to today and no one wants the parts so now what? I guess they will just rot away . I will take my hits for this but it the way it is snd the way it's been with PONTIACS for many years. I'm sure if you compare the average age of a GTO owner to other muscle cars it not close .(much older) We are getting old and have now lost a generation of young adults who wanted in but were not allowed. I will add that I have tried over the years selling parts to forum member that I could have held for a fair price. All I wanted wast a hand shake it was for them and not for resale . This is my opinion only . Doug


I am not sure I understand what your talking about. 

As related to the Hagerty article you posted.., are you saying because of the difficulty in buying parts in the past specifically for Pontiacs – that is what is making the market soft value wise / and reducing sales for the second generation GTO? 

Seems to me the sales that are listed by actions and Hagerty are for speculators who just want to flip the vehicle, not GTO lovers. 

Ironic, I find parts much more accessible now, and the speed options available today were not even dreamed about years ago. Aftermarker bolt on heads for a Pontiac that flow as good as a BB Chevy right out of the box, never had stuff like that years ago.


----------



## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

11th Indian said:


> dd68gto said:
> 
> 
> > I do not not agree with your opinion . I will use my son for snd example. He grew up working on muscle cars with me. He loved the GTO and bought a 69 that needed a total rebuild. Fast forward three years the car is gone . Parts were hard to find and were priced at twice the price of chevy parts . We went to many Pontiac folk who have hoarded 1000 of parts but would not sell any, and if they did it would be the junk.for crazy money. You can say I'm wrong but I'm not. The young kids don't want to play the games . This had nothing about making money for these kids. I have said for years there are barns full of parts (gto) but some reason these folks won't sell. Fast forward to today and no one wants the parts so now what? I guess they will just rot away . I will take my hits for this but it the way it is snd the way it's been with PONTIACS for many years. I'm sure if you compare the average age of a GTO owner to other muscle cars it not close .(much older) We are getting old and have now lost a generation of young adults who wanted in but were not allowed. I will add that I have tried over the years selling parts to forum member that I could have held for a fair price. All I wanted wast a hand shake it was for them and not for resale . This is my opinion only . Doug
> ...


Sorry you missed my point. Not going to repeat. I see parts sit on eBay for crazy money that never sell. I have also seen the same on FB swap meet pages that have taken over for Craig's list and eBay. Lots of older dealers with Pontiacs that have hoarded parts thinking that some day they would make a killing . Its never going to happen because we lost a young generation of buyers because of greed. I love Pontiac but I'm 63 years old. Try to find someone in there twenties that feel that way. You won't.?Doug


----------



## deanhickey (Apr 6, 2015)

I own a 68 GTO in pretty good condition and is still a blast to drive. I don't mind if it's price stays flat or falls as I have no intention to sell it as I refer to it as my fourth child. My 10 year old daughter is into cars in a big way and loves the car, we are building her first engine this summer. We decided a 350 chevy small block would be a good first one as prices and parts are at the lower end of the spectrum. If it goes well we will do a 400 and a TH400 with an eye to fining a decent roller to put it in. I have to say a soft GTO market could be the best thing for the hobby as prices have become unrealistic. An example would be 1968 coup (barn find) matching number for 6,500.00. It was a rust bucket complete with bullet holes in the rear 1/4 panels, engine torn apart interior totally rotted out and Fred Flintstone floorboards. I wanted it for the frame and body. Offered 4k as it was close to home, Seller was insulted and asked me to leave. It is still sitting in his driveway a year latter and I am still looking for a good frame. Let the market soften it can only benefit the enthusiast as the speculators look elsewhere.


----------



## 11th Indian (Feb 15, 2018)

dd68gto said:


> Sorry you missed my point. Not going to repeat. I see parts sit on eBay for crazy money that never sell. I have also seen the same on FB swap meet pages that have taken over for Craig's list and eBay. Lots of older dealers with Pontiacs that have hoarded parts thinking that some day they would make a killing . Its never going to happen because we lost a young generation of buyers because of greed. I love Pontiac but I'm 63 years old. Try to find someone in there twenties that feel that way. You won't.?Doug


OK, I got it.
The market, according to Hagerty for second generation GTOs is soft - and you say its because of parts being horded and expectations of unrealistic prices for these parts.


----------



## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

11th Indian said:


> dd68gto said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry you missed my point. Not going to repeat. I see parts sit on eBay for crazy money that never sell. I have also seen the same on FB swap meet pages that have taken over for Craig's list and eBay. Lots of older dealers with Pontiacs that have hoarded parts thinking that some day they would make a killing . Its never going to happen because we lost a young generation of buyers because of greed. I love Pontiac but I'm 63 years old. Try to find someone in there twenties that feel that way. You won't.?Doug
> ...


Yes theft is what I'm saying . The high end judge/ ram air cars will continue to sell but for far less than other comparable muscle cars . But try to sell a # 3 plain Jane gto and hold on to your wallet. Reason is younger generation don't want them and the older folk who do are just getting to old. it our own fault .but this is my opinion and I'm willing to bet I'm right and not alone .doug


----------



## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

I agree with most of what everyone here has said but I believe the hobby is doomed to be much smaller than it is now and not because of hoarders and cloners and other greedy bastards. Most all of our friends and neighbors have have encountered this problem with their grandchildren who are now in their mid and late teens. These kids aren't interested in cars like we were and they put up alot of resistance to getting their permits and drivers licenses because it takes them away from their cell phones; they prefer their constant texting, apps, gaming, etc to actually driving (or interacting with others in-person or verbally). Our grandson is now 17 and no license yet. He says he can't wait for driver-less cars to take him places so that driving won't interrupt the important cell phone activities. When he was in elementary school he was car-crazy--had me taking him to races at the local track, we went to a local race car museum, helped me with my 'antique car" and now he's "who cares" about cars other than as a transportation medium. Hoarders, auctions, greedy dealers and other sellers will suffer not because of their prices but from a generational disinterest. I truly hope Dean's daughter continues her interest but who knows. I fear my heirs will have a hard time unloading my GTO when that time comes because of a lack of interested buyers.


----------



## Dukes67 (Jun 19, 2018)

Completely agree with this previous comment. I can’t tell you the number of kids in my neighborhood that have to be brought kicking and screaming to the DMV. I used to feel ashamed for being in the Generation X group, but at least most of us still highly valued a Bad#*# muscle car. We also were knocking on the DMV door on our 16th birthday craving some sort of independence. For those of you that have kids and have successfully passed along the “appreciation gene” kudos to you!


----------



## 11th Indian (Feb 15, 2018)

There is another side of the issue too, performance. If by some miracle a younger guy is actually interested in cars and not for their “Internet connectivity” or their "blue tooth entertainment center" , they can buy a variety of new cars that will run circles around any stock muscle car ever built. Want another 50hp? Just plug in your laptop computer and upload a “Tune”, no tools, busted knuckles or dirty hands. 

It’s a miracle how much we have gained, but it’s also a sin how much we have lost, and the car hobby is just the tip of the iceberg.


----------



## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

Dukes67 said:


> Completely agree with this previous comment. I can’t tell you the number of kids in my neighborhood that have to be brought kicking and screaming to the DMV. I used to feel ashamed for being in the Generation X group, but at least most of us still highly valued a Bad#*# muscle car. We also were knocking on the DMV door on our 16th birthday craving some sort of independence. For those of you that have kids and have successfully passed along the “appreciation gene” kudos to you!





11th Indian said:


> There is another side of the issue too, performance. If by some miracle a younger guy is actually interested in cars and not for their “Internet connectivity” or their "blue tooth entertainment center" , they can buy a variety of new cars that will run circles around any stock muscle car ever built. Want another 50hp? Just plug in your laptop computer and upload a “Tune”, no tools, busted knuckles or dirty hands.
> 
> It’s a miracle how much we have gained, but it’s also a sin how much we have lost, and the car hobby is just the tip of the iceberg.


Agree strongly with both of you. Thanks to Doug for bringing up an interesting topic.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

11th Indian said:


> There is another side of the issue too, performance. If by some miracle a younger guy is actually interested in cars and not for their “Internet connectivity” or their "blue tooth entertainment center" , they can buy a variety of new cars that will run circles around any stock muscle car ever built. Want another 50hp? Just plug in your laptop computer and upload a “Tune”, no tools, busted knuckles or dirty hands.
> 
> It’s a miracle how much we have gained, but it’s also a sin how much we have lost, and the car hobby is just the tip of the iceberg.


There is a reason old iron is and always to some extent will be popular: it's a visceral, primitive, exiting feeling that these machines evoke, not some sanitized, gentrified cookie cutter appliance, as all new cars are. Look at the popularity of 100 year old Indian and Harley motorcycles....that can't even hit 60mph. But feel like they are going 100. Or old steam engines. Or old guns. The list goes on and on. Old items are crude, simple, and sustainable. They take commitment and offer huge rewards. They can be restored over and over if need be. Nothing made after about 2000 will be on the road as a 50-year old vehicle. The computers will die, the airbags will petrify, and the interiors will out-gas and crumble. Nobody will be restoring Teslas or Lincoln Navigators. Or C7 Corvettes. 50 years from now, I'll be gone, but my '61 Corvette and my '65-'67 GTO's will still be here, and on the road. Those who 'get it' know all of this. Most forum members here are of that breed.


----------



## 11th Indian (Feb 15, 2018)

geeteeohguy said:


> There is a reason old iron is and always to some extent will be popular: it's a visceral, primitive, exiting feeling that these machines evoke, not some sanitized, gentrified cookie cutter appliance, as all new cars are. Look at the popularity of 100 year old Indian and Harley motorcycles....that can't even hit 60mph. But feel like they are going 100. Or old steam engines. Or old guns. The list goes on and on. Old items are crude, simple, and sustainable. They take commitment and offer huge rewards. They can be restored over and over if need be. Nothing made after about 2000 will be on the road as a 50-year old vehicle. The computers will die, the airbags will petrify, and the interiors will out-gas and crumble. Nobody will be restoring Teslas or Lincoln Navigators. Or C7 Corvettes. 50 years from now, I'll be gone, but my '61 Corvette and my '65-'67 GTO's will still be here, and on the road. Those who 'get it' know all of this. Most forum members here are of that breed.


I agree. The visceral feeling of rowing those gears and having way more power than then the suspension and brakes can handle and the excitement of being connected cant be replaced. I also love the satisfaction of knowing that there isn't one single inch of my car i cant take apart and repair or rebuild myself if need be (OK, i cant setup a rear). And i think the old cars just plain look better.

C7 :smile3: But i cant discredit the advancements of the newer breeds of cars, they have their good points..... Coming full circle..


----------



## Stereolab42 (Apr 6, 2018)

People are actually complaining about parts availability for GTOs? With maybe 2 or 3 exceptions all of the hundreds of parts I bought in the past year for my '68 were available as repros at a click of the mouse from OPGI, ebay, and so on. (And for the most part were good enough quality I had no regrets about not going NOS.) Now go restore a Mopar and feel the pain... have fun paying $500 for a restored 3-speed wiper motor, you have no other option!


----------



## tonyskala (Feb 7, 2015)

I kinda get what you are saying. The other dads at my kids school in their mid 30's to mid 40's have no idea what the hell the GTO is. I used to get a Oh wow you have a 64 gto. Now I get the same look I give when some one tells me they have something I don't give a hoot about. It appear there is a generation that skipped because these things were just too expensive. 

And what ever you do do knock the Tesla. Elon did the same thing with the Tesla John did for the GTO. I happen to have a Model S and it is the the most advanced car I have ever owned. It doesn't hurt that the thing has 705 HP either and will give you whip lash when you stomp on the pedal, and can take a corner at 65 and stick. If you have not schedule a test drive of a P100D. It is absolutely absurd. You absolutely need to do it. It handles like it is on rails. It is an incredible machine and I absolutely can see myself keeping this thing on the road when I am 90. If I make it that long. Plus it is an American built car and get this..... My Tesla was built in the same exact factory that my silver mist 1964 GTO was built in 50 years almost to the month later.


----------



## Datold1 (Nov 27, 2018)

I have read the sad time ahead comments and can't agree or disagree. I don't know where I fit in. I am 68 and have owned over 160 cars,trucks and motorcycles and never a dealer. 
I have owned 17 Pontiacs 6 of which were GTOs. I currently own a 1966 389 tri-power 4 speed and have entirely to much money in it "or do I ?" It is not close to being numbers matching or even color code correct, but it was frame off with new parchment interior/ new Barrier Blue paint instead of Palmetto Green. It has new Rally 1 wheels date code correct 389 rebuilt with cam and Ram Air manifolds. 
I am having Dakota digital dash installed to correct some wiring issues and have a tach and better monitoring. I know what I will have invested and don't expect it to sell for that but I will know what I have. 
As far as finding parts -some are easy and some reproductions are fine but I find that some are pretty hard to come by such as GOOD heads like my 77s or some 093s like it should have.and is there any M21 or 22s floating around -everyone talks Tremac?


----------



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

The price market was based on a generation that grew up with these cars and either owned one when younger or knew a buddy who owned one. Back in the "day", these cars were throw-aways just like today. You did not buy or own a GTO so you could go "Sunday" driving with it. They were driven hard so engines, transmissions, and rear-ends blew up and why so many are not numbers matching. Depending on age, it was a matter of selling or scrapping the car versus replacing parts because it was an old car. They usually went through a number of owners and would continue the downward spiral of deterioration as each owner beat on the car some more, smashed or dented it up, or replaced the factory parts with some kind of better "speed" parts and threw the factory stuff in the garbage. Then by this time when driveline parts broke, it wasn't practical to invest any money into the heap, so you called the junk man. If by chance you were one who did maintain your car by replacing parts and doing tune-ups and oil changes, you may have lived in the northern snow belt and they rotted out from underneath you due to the salt spread on the roads during winter - and it was from these rotted away cars you got some of the better running engine found in junk yards to replace the blown one you had under the hood.

So these cars became memories just like all of us "car guys" have. Fast forward to a generation that grew up in this era and has matured and has the liquid assets to either purchase the GTO they wished they could have bought but never had the money or they were looking to replace the GTO they used to own and all those good memories they had in the car. So the demand for the GTO's (if you were a Pontiac guy) was created by a generation that saw these cars come off the showroom floor and had the cash to start buying them at whatever cost. Thanks to the internet, Ebay, Craigslist, car shows, many of the muscle car books & magazines, the Mecum and Jackson-Barret auctions, and those who flip cars, prices skyrocketed due in part to supply and demand and the knowledge of how many were built and what was "rare." Those ultra "rare" GTO cars that fetch absurd prices steer the market for all those lesser "rare" GTO examples. Then those prices dictate what a Lemans or Tempest can fetch because they can easily be cloned, tributed, or become a recreation (new term at the auction block!). This in turn drives up the price of a GTO, Lemans, or Tempest that is just a rotted shell - because the GTO demand has generated a host of reproduction parts to supply the restoration or rebuild of the Pontiac A-body whether a true GTO or not and the stupid prices of a rusted hulk are measured by the potential that a fully restored, cloned, tribute, or recreation GTO can fetch. The demand has sent NOS and used parts to absurd levels if you can find them because these cars are 45-55 years old and parts are just not there anymore.

So pricing went through the roof as these nostalgia muscle car era generational kids are now mature older adults who were successful in life and have the extra cash to throw around - kids all grown up and moved away, house & cars all paid off, two incomes rapidly building up the savings/retirement account, etc.. - extra $cash available and the GTO is seen as an investment in buying low, enjoy driving it, then sell again at a higher price when the time comes and increase our retirement fund when we go into the old folks home. This thinking set-off the investors just like any land investor, home investor, stocks/bond investor, etc.. It also makes a great way to "hide" money or write the purchase off as a company expense.

But, the generation that lived with these cars has grown past their prime - they are old. Sales has slowed down because those who wanted and could afford to buy these cars have done so. The supply of buyers that drove the prices up is drying up. Those who saw these cars as investments in flipping a profit are not finding buyers because the supply of buyers has diminished - so demand & prices drop, and many will lose money if their aim was to hold out and sell high as that day is over. 

I watched a recent auction on TV. The statement was that there were over 1800 cars at the auction and about 1700 of those were resto-mods. Many pick-ups hit the auction. I saw a 1940 Mercury coupe that appeared to be restored & original go for $21,000. I remember when you could not touch one in the same condition for $40,000. I saw this with the Model A as a generation that grew up with these cars wanted to have one. Prices skyrocketed for original coupes & convertibles and parts suppliers began cranking out repro parts for restoration. Then a company called Shay Motors began to crank out new reproductions in 1980 under license from Ford. The company eventually produced 5,000 Model A's of his 10,000 goal before going bankrupts in 1982. A perfect example of supply and demand and how the skyrocketing price of an original Model A's on the open market made reproducing then feasible and allowed people to buy a car that was new with updated mechanics and with a warranty over an original that needed restoration. Prices for the Model A dropped as demand dropped and parts suppliers dried up. In today's generation, who would even consider restoring a Model A? In come the hot rodders to take over, just like the generation we are seeing now who insert the Chevy LS3 where a 400CI used to sit, or swap out the 4-speed for a 5-speed OD, the TH-400 for a modern automatic with OD, coil over suspensions, Dakota digital in place of original gauges, 17/18" rims, etc.. into a GTO body.

So the demand for the 1964-1974 GTO will slump and prices drop. Parts suppliers will dry up with just a few remaining. Resto-mods will be far more common than original and expect to see fewer and fewer with original drivetrains as the LS engine takes over and the drivetrains are "modernized" along with all the other upgraded and contemporary pieces as seen through the next generation of car enthusiasts who will put their spin on our memories of these cars. It is inevitable. Resistance is futile. We of the late 70's and early 80's generation are getting old and the next generation of car enthusiasts that are maturing is right behind us looking to buy and restore the cars they grew up with and have little interest in what was once original, and now obsolete to them.


----------



## integrity6987 (May 10, 2017)

PJ - There is much truth in your assessment of reality - but nobody likes to hear they have an ugly baby. I mentored high school kids in FIRST robotics for many years to expose them to STEM careers. Some come into this program having never touched a hand tool or knowledge of which way to turn a wrench. Yes, we all had to learn that - but I'd bet almost everyone that reads this forum learned that by age 7 (not 17). This does not paint too bright a future for a mechanically savvy workforce, not to mention the future impact of our hobby. A sad time ahead indeed.


----------



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

integrity6987 said:


> PJ - There is much truth in your assessment of reality - but nobody likes to hear they have an ugly baby. I mentored high school kids in FIRST robotics for many years to expose them to STEM careers. Some come into this program having never touched a hand tool or knowledge of which way to turn a wrench. Yes, we all had to learn that - but I'd bet almost everyone that reads this forum learned that by age 7 (not 17). This does not paint too bright a future for a mechanically savvy workforce, not to mention the future impact of our hobby. A sad time ahead indeed.


Yep, mechanical skills and aptitude are being replaced by the computer and the electronically literate. Our cars that we grew up with are going the way of the horse replaced by machines, the electric trolley replaced by the bus, the steam train replaced by the diesel, and the piston engine planes replaced by the jet.

It is not that cars, or private modes of transportation will disappear, but they will be replaced with more advanced technology which we are now seeing. Hybrid and electric cars will be the wave of the future. Electric cars have been around since the advent of the automobile. They just were not practical or economical when compared to the gasoline auto. But I see that that will change due in part to the computer/electronics age we are witnessing and pushed along by the tree huggers, global warming believers, and those who fear we are destroying the earth with our fossil fuels. Not a bad thing I suppose. 

But it is coming because there is a generation that looks forward to the electronics & electrification of vehicles that are self driving and "safer" so you can enjoy texting, tweeting, facebooking, shopping on amazon, or surfing the net, or watch TV while the car drives you to work or any other place you desire. Why waste your time driving when you NEED to stay connected to the outside world while inside your car. Paying attention to driving is not getting the latest scoop on facebook or taking in the Vue. And better yet, why drive at all when we are entering a stage where many things can be ordered off the internet and brought right to you like pizza, your groceries, medications, or dog grooming? Need to change a light bulb? Just call a specialist who will come to you and change it out for you and then accepts that effortless swipe of your credit or debit card. So simple right? And you don't have to miss a single minute of that drama that is taking place on facebook or step away from the computer game you were playing. Modern society is churning out adult children who don't want responsibility, don't want to work, feel entitled, and believe the world revolves around them and their needs - and just want to have fun and spend money.

People in the near future will be rummaging through antique stores looking at and picking up tools and equipment that is very familiar to us as they say "what do you think this was used for?" because they honestly won't know, anymore than we know when picking up something old not familiar to us in our generation and asking the same thing - but it was common back then and everyone knew what it was, like tongs used to pick up ice blocks that you used in your ice box to keep food cold (beer anyway LOL). Tongs? ice blocks? ice box???? Nooooo Way. How could anyone live like that?

The world is changing and we are in the midst of a new direction that is taking us into the future. Its called evolution. :thumbsup:


----------



## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

tonyskala said:


> And what ever you do do knock the Tesla. Elon did the same thing with the Tesla John did for the GTO. I happen to have a Model S and it is the the most advanced car I have ever owned. It doesn't hurt that the thing has 705 HP either and will give you whip lash when you stomp on the pedal, and can take a corner at 65 and stick. If you have not schedule a test drive of a P100D. It is absolutely absurd. You absolutely need to do it. It handles like it is on rails. It is an incredible machine and I absolutely can see myself keeping this thing on the road when I am 90. If I make it that long. Plus it is an American built car and get this..... My Tesla was built in the same exact factory that my silver mist 1964 GTO was built in 50 years almost to the month later.


Good grief, Tony, that P100D costs $135,000!:surprise: They would look at my wife and me and want a large four figure deposit for a test drive since we look our age; the age of pensioners who had Masters degrees that were not MA's or engineering. It took a lot of personal finagling of our money to come up with $23k for my wife's Ford Escape SE to avoid payments. I think its neat:smile3: that you are able to have a really nice, advanced car like that (that was actually built in the plant your '64 was built in), but all that advanced technology scares me. Are there really technicians (old days: mechanics) in local dealerships who can competently repair those cars?

Anyway best of luck with your '64, that was the first model GTO I ever rode in (Feb 1964) when I was 16. Back then it was an amazing car!


----------



## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

To go along with Jim's post #22 , here is a link to the disappearance of local speed shops, I remember them well. There were three of them here, gone by the late '80's.

Speed shops - PY Online Forums


----------



## dd68gto (Nov 14, 2012)

PontiacJim said:


> The price market was based on a generation that grew up with these cars and either owned one when younger or knew a buddy who owned one. Back in the "day", these cars were throw-aways just like today. You did not buy or own a GTO so you could go "Sunday" driving with it. They were driven hard so engines, transmissions, and rear-ends blew up and why so many are not numbers matching. Depending on age, it was a matter of selling or scrapping the car versus replacing parts because it was an old car. They usually went through a number of owners and would continue the downward spiral of deterioration as each owner beat on the car some more, smashed or dented it up, or replaced the factory parts with some kind of better "speed" parts and threw the factory stuff in the garbage. Then by this time when driveline parts broke, it wasn't practical to invest any money into the heap, so you called the junk man. If by chance you were one who did maintain your car by replacing parts and doing tune-ups and oil changes, you may have lived in the northern snow belt and they rotted out from underneath you due to the salt spread on the roads during winter - and it was from these rotted away cars you got some of the better running engine found in junk yards to replace the blown one you had under the hood.
> 
> So these cars became memories just like all of us "car guys" have. Fast forward to a generation that grew up in this era and has matured and has the liquid assets to either purchase the GTO they wished they could have bought but never had the money or they were looking to replace the GTO they used to own and all those good memories they had in the car. So the demand for the GTO's (if you were a Pontiac guy) was created by a generation that saw these cars come off the showroom floor and had the cash to start buying them at whatever cost. Thanks to the internet, Ebay, Craigslist, car shows, many of the muscle car books & magazines, the Mecum and Jackson-Barret auctions, and those who flip cars, prices skyrocketed due in part to supply and demand and the knowledge of how many were built and what was "rare." Those ultra "rare" GTO cars that fetch absurd prices steer the market for all those lesser "rare" GTO examples. Then those prices dictate what a Lemans or Tempest can fetch because they can easily be cloned, tributed, or become a recreation (new term at the auction block!). This in turn drives up the price of a GTO, Lemans, or Tempest that is just a rotted shell - because the GTO demand has generated a host of reproduction parts to supply the restoration or rebuild of the Pontiac A-body whether a true GTO or not and the stupid prices of a rusted hulk are measured by the potential that a fully restored, cloned, tribute, or recreation GTO can fetch. The demand has sent NOS and used parts to absurd levels if you can find them because these cars are 45-55 years old and parts are just not there anymore.
> 
> ...


Jim we don't agree on much but this is one thing you just wrote that I do . 

But, the generation that lived with these cars has grown past their prime - they are old. Sales has slowed down because those who wanted and could afford to buy these cars have done so. The supply of buyers that drove the prices up is drying up. Those who saw these cars as investments in flipping a profit are not finding buyers because the supply of buyers has diminished - so demand & prices drop, and many will lose money if their aim was to hold out and sell high as that day is over. 

Just to add as I have stated I have been in barns with enough NOS and used parts to build 50 GTO.and Trans Am But will they sell? No. I have no idea what will happen to them . Kind of sad . Doug


----------



## 11th Indian (Feb 15, 2018)

So what makes the second generation GTOs different form the muscle car market in general? 
I can see the entire muscle car market getting softer as based on the commentary here, not just the 68 to 72 GTOs…..as the Hagerty article indicates.


----------



## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Just saw a 68 base hardtop gto 400 4 speed go for $60.000 on barrett jackson. And seen other cars struggle.


----------



## Mitchell Waske (Dec 5, 2018)

Im 21 years old and am growing up in the wrong generation. I love Big blocks and carburetion. I understand the simplicity and raw power of old school muscle. The sound of new "muscle" cars is so unappealing to me. Just bought a 69 lemans race car with a 400 stroker motor and wouldn't ever think to swap an LS in it. Ponchos rule and hopefully my son one day will feel the same.


----------



## MidnightAuto (May 28, 2018)

I’m ok with evolution. Nothing will change the song of 3x2 going through straight exhaust. It’s magical. My son will know that. 

In the same way, a Tesla is an extraordinary engineering marvel. Take a highway curve going 80 on autopilot and you can’t help but shake your head. And Elon tipped his hat to the past by having Atari embedded in the ui. He knows his roots too. 

The automotive experience.


----------



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

RMTZ67 said:


> Just saw a 68 base hardtop gto 400 4 speed go for $60.000 on barrett jackson. And seen other cars struggle.


No way a base GTO would be worth $60,000. I saw a Mecum auction that took place last week in Florida. 1969 GTO done up as a "recreation." Sold for $35,000. Still about $13,000 too high in my book, but it was more realistic. These auctions roll cars across and have people, perhaps their own employees, or a buddy in the audience, bid cars up (this is done on Ebay as well). For $60,000 that car was a "plant" and aimed at getting other GTO values up. If you told me it was an original restored Ram Air car, OK, I am onboard, but a base GTO.......I smell a rat.

My brother told me a story of the exact same nature from a man who was at an auction and did buy a car he was looking to get. He paid attention and watched just who exactly was bidding and who he might be up against. He noticed #136 kept bidding on all the cars and pushing car sale prices higher and never purchased a one of them. Th guy observing this knew what he was doing - forcing prices higher. So when his car that he wanted was getting closer to roll over the auction block, he went over to the guy and told him he knew what he was doing and that he was not a "true" bidder and that when the car that the man wanted rolled over the auction block that he had better not play any of his games and boost the price or he was going to lodge a complaint and expose him. When the car rolled over the auction block, #136 sat quietly and did not make a bid and the buyer got his car at a fair price that he was looking to pay.

This is not the first time I have heard this as another acquaintance who watches these auctions pointed out a similar observation.

So don't think these kinds of games are not played out to raise prices. :yesnod:


----------



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Mitchell Waske said:


> Im 21 years old and am growing up in the wrong generation. I love Big blocks and carburetion. I understand the simplicity and raw power of old school muscle. The sound of new "muscle" cars is so unappealing to me. Just bought a 69 lemans race car with a 400 stroker motor and wouldn't ever think to swap an LS in it. Ponchos rule and hopefully my son one day will feel the same.


FYI - Big Blocks are Chevy, Buick, Olds, Ford, & Chrysler. Pontiac never made a "big block," that's their beauty. :thumbsup:


----------



## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

PontiacJim said:


> No way a base GTO would be worth $60,000. I saw a Mecum auction that took place last week in Florida. 1969 GTO done up as a "recreation." Sold for $35,000. Still about $13,000 too high in my book, but it was more realistic. These auctions roll cars across and have people, perhaps their own employees, or a buddy in the audience, bid cars up (this is done on Ebay as well). For $60,000 that car was a "plant" and aimed at getting other GTO values up. If you told me it was an original restored Ram Air car, OK, I am onboard, but a base GTO.......I smell a rat.
> 
> My brother told me a story of the exact same nature from a man who was at an auction and did buy a car he was looking to get. He paid attention and watched just who exactly was bidding and who he might be up against. He noticed #136 kept bidding on all the cars and pushing car sale prices higher and never purchased a one of them. Th guy observing this knew what he was doing - forcing prices higher. So when his car that he wanted was getting closer to roll over the auction block, he went over to the guy and told him he knew what he was doing and that he was not a "true" bidder and that when the car that the man wanted rolled over the auction block that he had better not play any of his games and boost the price or he was going to lodge a complaint and expose him. When the car rolled over the auction block, #136 sat quietly and did not make a bid and the buyer got his car at a fair price that he was looking to pay.
> 
> ...


 Ya I agree. I had to rewind it to see if it wasn't a survivor or what was so special. Had the chrome front end instead of the endura bumper:confused. That's it. Great looking car with redline wheels.


----------



## ptcerio (May 29, 2018)

RMTZ67 said:


> Just saw a 68 base hardtop gto 400 4 speed go for $60.000 on barrett jackson. And seen other cars struggle.


I was surprised this car sold for only $60,000, considering it had the Endura delete option and HO engine. A '67 HO hardtop sold for twice that, though it was restored to GTOAA National Concours Gold Award winning condition.


----------



## 11th Indian (Feb 15, 2018)

Sorry to go off topic -- Barrett Jackson - 

IMHO - BJ has done more to harm this hobby then to help it.

I also think their bidding is fixed - I have noticed many cars come up to the stage and get their 15 seconds of fame, and the hammer drops. Other cars seem to get much more attention and even if the bidding stalls, they allow a break and and restart and will get their paid shills (excuse me, bidders assistants) in the audience to run from bidder to bidder to egg them on.


----------



## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Jim, great posts here, and I agree. Just saw a '67 GTO hardtop pull $135,000 at BJ. Nice car, had a hood tach, but 135K??? I loved muscle cars as a kid, but was too young to own one. I got into GTO's in the late '70's when they were literally dirt cheap. I was even given a '66 4 speed GTO with posi and gauges and console for FREE by a stranger who saw my 'restored' '66 and wanted his well-worn '66 to go to a good home. Very glad I bought my GTO's when others frowned at them as being old, out-dated gas-hogs. I bought them, worked on them, and drove them because I loved them then. 40 years later, I love them even more. Still have two from back in the day: a '65 hardtop (real 4 speed tripower car bought for $1200) and a '67 ragtop, bought for $1800. I've been driving these cars all along, making memories from a young kid to a now old man. I don't personally care where the market on these cars is going, up or down. I liked it more when it was down, though, as real car guys could afford some neat old iron a bit easier. The money to be made these days, if you are into flipping for profit, is in the '67-'72 GM pickups: all parts are available, they are simple and easy to restore, and rubes routinely pay $65,000-$125,000 for them at auction. I watched a $150,000 restoration on a '41 Lincoln Continental sell for $30k, and right after it, a '72 Chevy C-10 sold for 67k. I was, and remain, dumbfounded. Glad I got in when I did and glad I kept at least two old goats!! Now that I'm an old goat, I'm in excellent company.


----------



## Datold1 (Nov 27, 2018)

Many years ago maybe 20 plus, a friend of mine asked me to take his tractor over to a farm auction where it was to be sold. He told me to tell the auctioneer what he had to get out of it. When I got there I told the auctioneer and he said -" don't worry it will do it". When the bidding started I was just standing and observing and the auctioneer took 2 or 3 bids from me that I didn't make and then 2 more somewhere else and the tractor sold for a little more than required. This is one of there many devises. since then I have worked as a ring man and learned much more. While on the subject what is it with this buyer's premium? 
I think that is a low down way for auctions to get more money.


----------



## TimT (Jan 31, 2019)

*67 gto*

I am 71 and have recently purchased a 1967 GTO convertible. $38.000.00 plus $7,000.00 to make repairs with me doing all the work. Why? When I was young I could not afford this car. I always wanted one and the young people I talk to, want one also. When they get older they can, hopfully, buy the car they have wanted for 50 years.
My point is, I could not buy one when I was young but the well off could. The older generation, when I was young, paid big bucks for classics they coud not have bought when they were young. And so it goes. How much is any car worth? How bad do you want it.


----------

