# American or Australian and why?



## Holden1984 (Feb 2, 2007)

So i am wondering waht the general opinion is on this issue? I am still on the side that gtos are just rebadged australian holden monaros. but lots of people say its an all american car because gm owns holden. If im not mistaken they own vauxhall and opel too though right? so why arent opels and vauxhalls considered american cars? What is the general opinion on the new gtos?


----------



## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

It's an Australian built car sold by an American corporation -- thereby making it an American car.

Although classifying cars as domestic and import can sometimes seem difficult, such as Nissans being built in Tennessee -- the bottom line is that purchasing products owned by GM or Ford puts dollars into an American company that allows them to invest either here or elsewhere in the world. They also pay taxes here, too.

Toyota's been running a bunch of ads talking about how "American" it is. Nice idea -- but those ads somehow fail to mention that GM alone employs 6X more people in the United States than they do.

What's so disappointing about American buying habits is that Europeans tend to buy European product while Asians buy Asian product. Americans? They buy whatever the hell they want -- and could care less about keeping their own employed. Meanwhile, $15,000 South Korean made Kias sell for $15,000 here -- while a $15,000 Chevy Cobalt sells for $50,000 in Seoul because of import duties, tariffs and distribution-related surcharges that make the term "free market trade" an absolute joke.

Right now, the Detroit area has lost tens of thousands of good paying, "head of household" jobs -- ones that are capable of raising a family. They're not coming back, either. People are leaving the area in droves, real estate prices are falling through the basement floor, yet unemployment is still rising. Same thing happened in North Carolina when the furniture industry essentially was exported to China. Where this will stop, I do not know, but it's safe to say that the American middle class seems to be headed toward working class status -- while the working class now seems to be headed toward working poor status -- a situation not unlike Mexico, where a few rich control everything while the masses fight over their table scraps.


----------



## silversport (Mar 23, 2007)

...that we got a wonderful gift from our Aussie cousins when they rebadged and slightly modified the Holden Monaro for us...I love this car...no matter where it is made, since it is a Pontiac GTO it is an American car...BUT...we never forget where the roots are or who made this possible...Thanks!...:seeya: arty: :cheers 
Bill


----------



## Holden1984 (Feb 2, 2007)

b_a_betterperson said:


> It's an Australian built car sold by an American corporation -- thereby making it an American car.
> 
> Although classifying cars as domestic and import can sometimes seem difficult, such as Nissans being built in Tennessee -- the bottom line is that purchasing products owned by GM or Ford puts dollars into an American company that allows them to invest either here or elsewhere in the world. They also pay taxes here, too.
> 
> ...


Good call. Yeah i m waiting for pontiac to do a truely vintage rebirth on the gto. its funny cuz holden discontinues the monaro, and that same year what happens to the gto? haha we can all think about that one. I dunno i still think of it as an australian car. but you are right as for the exact title seeing as gm owns holden. i dunno


----------



## dustyminpin (Jun 19, 2006)

*Wake Up People*

I work at Teledyne Continental Motors. We make piston driven aircraft engines for planes and helicopters and small unmanned engines (rocket engines for the military's air to ground missiles and torpedo propulsion for the subs). We are UAW Local 1639. UAW stands for United Automobile, Aerospace, and Agricultural Implement Workers of America in case you all didn't know. Anyways, my boss of 1 year now is from GM. He quit there when the company gave him the heads up that within the next year anybody working for GM in a salary job with say, less then 20 years in, is gonna be axed. He quit before he got fired. The Senior VP of my company also worked for GM. He retired from Cadillac before all the job cutting crap started. He gets a brand new Caddy of his choice every 2 years in a free lease as part of his pension (is rolling in a new Esclade right now) pretty sweet deal eh? We talk all the time about what's going on in Detroit and current buying trends, etc. etc. 

The posts on here that said American-built cars by Japanese owned companies not being American......hit the nail right on the head. They are not UAW. I live way down on the gulf coast in Alabama. In northern Alabama just off of I-65 is the Hyundai plant. It is huge!!!!!! Think 50 times the average size of a typical mall huge. BUT, it's a Jap company that's not Union (UAW) that pays decent wages BUT that money doesn't go back into the USA economy at the end of the day. It goes back to the land of the rising sun to their engineers to come with more ways to bury us good old boys in the Big 3 out of Detroit. I am originally from Illinois. I take I-65 from the coast all the way up to north central Indiana before jetting off to the west to head home (1.5 hours south of Chicago). 

Also just off of I-65 in Indiana is another giant car plant. This one is Suburu (yes, the same STI building bastards that can beat us). They don't have billboards. They have giant platforms right next to the interstate like they got at the dealerships just on a bigger scale with their cars sitting on incline and declined positions and a HUGE American flag about the size of a football field flying overhead. Off in the distance you can see how massive this plant is (not quite as big as Hyundai's is). They have their own railyard with trains going right through the gut and everything. But........they are NOT American. 

I don't care that my goat was made in Aussieland. My engine and tranny were built in the USA with the rest of the Vettes and shipped oversees to be put into a badass little 2 door 4 seater. If GM did not exist, do you think small fledgling companies like Aussie's Holden, Germany's Opel, or the Swede's Saab would even exist? I don't think so. At least on my drives home to see the family, I am blessed by the good Lord that I get to drive through Bowling Green, Kentucky where they make the almighty Corvette and Cadillac XLR (and our LS2's) and off to the other side of the interstate is the National Corvette Museum which simply put, is God's gift to the history of American Muscle. I've made the trip from The Gulf to Chicago close to 20 times now. It takes between 14 and 15 hours.....and I STILL get goosebumps everytime I drive by that VETTE assembly plant and museum. That's the bottom line, because a pissed off (and proud) UAW member local 1639 said so.


----------



## PEARL JAM (Sep 6, 2005)

I beleave in Australia it can be bought as the HSV Monaro GTO.








I would have been satisfied if it had been labeled that here, also.


----------



## TR GTO (Mar 17, 2007)

PEARL JAM said:


> I beleave in Australia it can be bought as the HSV Monaro GTO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well now I know the front bumper I want and I can tell it's going to cost an arm and a leg.


----------



## PEARL JAM (Sep 6, 2005)

It is a sweet bumper, especially when the lower front is darkened!


----------



## TR GTO (Mar 17, 2007)

I need a sideskirt repainted since I caught it on a curb one day. Maybe I should use this as an excuse to do the whole thing!


I wish....


----------



## NT91 (Aug 30, 2005)

I had an Australian in my GTO this week. He told me it was
the first time that he had been in a Monaro before!


----------



## NoToDoD (Jun 27, 2006)

dustyminpin said:


> In northern Alabama just off of I-65 is the Hyundai plant. It is huge!!!!!! Think 50 times the average size of a typical mall huge. BUT, it's a Jap company that's not Union (UAW) that pays decent wages BUT that money doesn't go back into the USA economy at the end of the day. It goes back to the land of the rising sun to their engineers to come with more ways to bury us good old boys in the Big 3 out of Detroit. I am originally from Illinois. I take I-65 from the coast all the way up to north central Indiana before jetting off to the west to head home (1.5 hours south of Chicago).


Dusty, a few comments....

Hyundai is a Korean company, not Japanese. I hear the sun only rises there in the South.

Stock for almost every major foreign manufacturer is available to U.S. citizens, so the final dollars can still come back here.

The U.S. beneficiaries of Hyundai and Subaru plants here are not just the workers there, there's also some of the parts manufacturers, their employees, the logistics behind all those parts, the auto parts retailers like Pep Boys, the franchise owners that sell the cars at their dealerships, the mechanics that service all those cars, the marketing and design folks employed here, plus the fact that half of the foreign car companies are partly owned by GM or Ford anyway.... that's alot of domestic benefit. In the end, you can't say that the dollars "end up" somewhere else, bc by that time, there's only a few cents left from each dollar. Isn't it really a matter of MOST of the $$ staying here, not all?

BTW, what is your position on the Camaro which was built in Canada, or DC vehicles?

Bottom line is, the best scenario would be if we could design and produce a quality car end-to-end domestically. Since we can't (and it's virtually impossible to do it with every segment), then we need to outsource something along the way to keep providing competitive product, and I'm just thankful someone decided to outsource here. Selling 20k more Subies built here generates more U.S. jobs than if GM/Ford captured, say 50% of those sales, no?


----------



## koman (Sep 25, 2006)

i noticed my tires were made in japan today.


----------



## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

*I have known many Harley Davidson owners who put people down who buy foreign, and boast how they only buy products made in the U.S.

I get a kick out of it when I inform them much of the hardware used to put their HOGS together comes from JAPAN. The stammering, and excuses and the I had no idea that was the case bewilderment responses is priceless. I then ask them when they plan on getting rid of their bike since there is some imported parts on it and after all you only buy American. Not one has gotten rid of them. I guess being part time hypocrites is ok and depends on what item it is they are talking about. 

I also have one friend in particular who owns a hog and boats how he only buys American, but enjoys watching his favorite team on a big Sony HD T.V. I suppose as long as you purchase it in America it's American. *


----------



## Gotagoat (Jan 6, 2006)

Aussie or American? It's the best of both. The build quality of the body is better than GM's and how much more American can you get than an LS2 engine?


----------



## mumrah (Apr 3, 2005)

Gotagoat said:


> Aussie or American? It's the best of both. The build quality of the body is better than GM's and how much more American can you get than an LS2 engine?


Best response yet!:cheers


----------



## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

GTO judge said:


> *I have known many Harley Davidson owners who put people down who buy foreign, and boast how they only buy products made in the U.S.
> 
> I get a kick out of it when I inform them much of the hardware used to put their HOGS together comes from JAPAN. The stammering, and excuses and the I had no idea that was the case bewilderment responses is priceless. I then ask them when they plan on getting rid of their bike since there is some imported parts on it and after all you only buy American. Not one has gotten rid of them. I guess being part time hypocrites is ok and depends on what item it is they are talking about.
> 
> I also have one friend in particular who owns a hog and boats how he only buys American, but enjoys watching his favorite team on a big Sony HD T.V. I suppose as long as you purchase it in America it's American. *


Kind of a strange point you're making. OK, somebody buys a Harley that might have a few Japanese components. So what? It's still better than buying a Honda with all Japanese components. And buying a Sony television? Well, that's because all the domestic manufacturers like Zenith closed all closed their plants and moved production to Japan in the 80's, Mexico and in the 90's and China today. Even domestic companies that sell televisions, like Dell, are screwing them together in Chinese plants. Since they've only recently entered the market, calling someone a hypocrite for not running out and selling their Japanese television when they had no other option at the time is kind of a cheap shot.

As for Asian manufacturers buying local components, that's true, to a point. They do buy some stuff like window seals and other token parts -- however, I live near the Nummi plant here in Northern California -- and the engines and chassis all come in by train from the Port of Oakland -- and are merely bolted together here. I'm not sure, but even the body panels for some of the small pickups are coming in from Mexico. Bottom line? While the plant does have some UAW jobs -- the downstream jobs from component manufacturers are extremely limited.

As for buying stock in Korean or Japanese companies so that the money "all comes back here?" Give me a break.


----------



## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

*My 2 cents, Its Both.*

Wow, a simple question for an opinion turns into a global economic debate. Well, here's my 2 cents on both and then some. 

Auzie or American;
The GTO is both, an Auzie car built with American muscle installed. As some else stated, the engine/trans were built in USA and shipped down under for install. Holden engineers long ago designed the body and frame geometry for their Monaro and GM brass exploited it as the Pontiac GTO. Those that think its American, I can't say what's on your window sticker but mine reads final assembly, Elizabeth, Australia. Also, Holden won't answer questions about the Pontiac GTO via email requests because our cars were export versions of their Monaro which is now an HSV (Holden Special Vehicle) GTO. In looking at the Holden web site and HSV site (Pearl, thanks for the pics, I hadn't checked that link before) at used Monaro's, a typical 05 with LS1 runs $38,000 to $56,000 Auzie dollars. Converted that's between $32,000 to $44,000 USD (certified used). I couldn't find a listing for a used HSV GTO which has the LS2 but its safe to assume it goes for more $$$ and these used prices makes me wonder what was the cost new down under. So, we got the car cheep compared to what the local Auzie market pays for the same thrill ride. If it were Japs, Koreans or Euro trash, that would be considered trade dumping. Maybe the Pontiac GTO was built 3rd shift with trainees and that's why there have been so many problems related to production issues. Saves on labor and lowers cost, because you know GM wasn't being charitable in loosing money on the sale of each GTO in America when they could get 150% on the sale elsewhere. That's really where the rubber meets the road on our cars demise while its still being produced for other markets. BTW, in researching parts sources on google for Holden parts yesterday, I found the Pontiac nose is a desired piece for the Auzie market. If your interested in the HSV GTO version maybe someone will trade via ebay? Check the whole car by going to the GM web site, then jump to Holden from the drop box (top right) and then HSV from Holdens site.

Global Economics;
I understand the UAW member's issue, I'm a retired member of a maritime union of marine engineers. I look at any engineering position onbd an American flagged ship not represented by my union, along with every foreign flagged ship owned by an American company as a bunch of monkeys needing replacement by my union brothers. That doesn't mean its economically sound policy for the greater good or bad. With our trade deficit its no wonder foreign car companies built factories here, they had to. Nobody's shipping gold out of the US Treasury in exchange for the Toyota's, Honda's and BMW's rolling in off the ships. What do you think they are getting in return? It's mainly our scrap iron & paper along with raw timber. Nobody's twisting our arms to purchase these cars or shop at WalMart for all thing made in China. Fact is, its a global economy with imbalance for a ton of reasons I could write a book of opinions about but who cares. The fact remains our trade imbalance has hit the American rust belt manufacturing sector hard and is not going to subside any time soon. In my own work sphere, I have no clue if American flagged car carriers carried the Pontiac GTO's to the states or what flag carrier shipped the engines down under. When I turn the key and hear it fire up, I could care less that my purchase may have supported some non-union fishhead merchant mariners or that a group of UAW members didn't glue it together. 

My wife's Torrent has an engine built in China (which really pisses me off about GM, WalMart and the rest of those commie employing mothas), trans from Japan and assembled in Canada,,,, GO GM RAH, RAH, BS. Since 1979 I've only purchased American. I've purchased new from the "General" 2 pickup trucks, 3 SUV's and 4 cars. I'm a GM credit card touting member of the generals purchase police and still own my 83 GMC K-2500 PUTK. I've shovelled against the S**T tide of loosing our manufacturing base for 30 years and it hasn't changed a thing, just the opposite as GM is building more or subsourcing major components outside our borders. On the other hand I've worked in shipyards in Japan, Germany, Spain and Hyundai town itself, Ulsan Korea. I've broke bread and downed shots with these people and have come to understand that in the free world were all the same, worship the same god and work to support our life styles and families, period. Its major corporations that make us their pawns as worker bees for corporate profit (which is disproportunately paid to directors of the board) and when usefulness of labor and middle management is exhausted or too expensive, offshoring or downsizing follows. That's just a fact of modern life whether we like it or not.

Then some;
So insert key, fire engine and drop the hammer, enjoy! Its only a car, the rest will all be over when they nail our personal box closed and lower it 6 feet. Cause life is shorter then you may think, make the most of it and remember nobodys gettin off this planet alive.

Red Beard.


----------



## Holden1984 (Feb 2, 2007)

PEARL JAM said:


> I beleave in Australia it can be bought as the HSV Monaro GTO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



well its just a holden monaro. the hsv is the "cobra mustang" version of a normal cv8 monaro. thats all.


----------



## PWR_SHIFT (Feb 10, 2005)

Red Bearded Goat said:


> Wow, a simple question for an opinion turns into a global economic debate. Well, here's my 2 cents on both and then some.
> 
> Auzie or American;
> The GTO is both, an Auzie car built with American muscle installed. As some else stated, the engine/trans were built in USA and shipped down under for install. Holden engineers long ago designed the body and frame geometry for their Monaro and GM brass exploited it as the Pontiac GTO. Those that think its American, I can't say what's on your window sticker but mine reads final assembly, Elizabeth, Australia. Also, Holden won't answer questions about the Pontiac GTO via email requests because our cars were export versions of their Monaro which is now an HSV (Holden Special Vehicle) GTO. In looking at the Holden web site and HSV site (Pearl, thanks for the pics, I hadn't checked that link before) at used Monaro's, a typical 05 with LS1 runs $38,000 to $56,000 Auzie dollars. Converted that's between $32,000 to $44,000 USD (certified used). I couldn't find a listing for a used HSV GTO which has the LS2 but its safe to assume it goes for more $$$ and these used prices makes me wonder what was the cost new down under. So, we got the car cheep compared to what the local Auzie market pays for the same thrill ride. If it were Japs, Koreans or Euro trash, that would be considered trade dumping. Maybe the Pontiac GTO was built 3rd shift with trainees and that's why there have been so many problems related to production issues. Saves on labor and lowers cost, because you know GM wasn't being charitable in loosing money on the sale of each GTO in America when they could get 150% on the sale elsewhere. That's really where the rubber meets the road on our cars demise while its still being produced for other markets. BTW, in researching parts sources on google for Holden parts yesterday, I found the Pontiac nose is a desired piece for the Auzie market. If your interested in the HSV GTO version maybe someone will trade via ebay? Check the whole car by going to the GM web site, then jump to Holden from the drop box (top right) and then HSV from Holdens site.
> ...


As much as I still bellieve that because we're living and raising our families (those of us that have 'em) in the USA, we should strive to keep as much of our money from leaving these shores (and by buying American-branded vehicles we're doing more of that than if we're buying foreign-branded ones), I have to admit that this was the most thoughtful post I read in this thread yet. Yes, most of us are by and large the same, give or take a few bricks - we work for a living. 

Enjoy the ride, it is definitely shorter than it seemed when we were younger.


----------



## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

b_a_betterperson said:


> Kind of a strange point you're making.


*Not a strange point at all. So many people boast about NOT buying foreign products particularity automobiles. Many of these same people that lead the parade lambasting others for buying Japanese cars while bragging they will never own foreign cars etc are closet case foreign buyers. MANY Harley riders BRAG about how their bikes are 100% American made. Fact is they aren't and when they find out parts are foreign they are aghast. 

This is the point I was making. And when you know someone who boasts about buying all American and when you are invited in their home and see foreign products sitting about, makes you laugh. Take the post for what it's worth, I really don't give a damn. NO ONE is going to be free of foreign parts or products no matter how holier than thou they think they are. *


----------



## Holden1984 (Feb 2, 2007)

GTO judge said:


> *Not a strange point at all. So many people boast about NOT buying foreign products particularity automobiles. Many of these same people that lead the parade lambasting others for buying Japanese cars while bragging they will never own foreign cars etc are closet case foreign buyers. MANY Harley riders BRAG about how their bikes are 100% American made. Fact is they aren't and when they find out parts are foreign they are aghast.
> 
> This is the point I was making. And when you know someone who boasts about buying all American and when you are invited in their home and see foreign products sitting about, makes you laugh. Take the post for what it's worth, I really don't give a damn. NO ONE is going to be free of foreign parts or products no matter how holier than thou they think they are. *


ha ha like how every article of clothing says made in china, mexico, vietnam, or taiwan? haha yeah you cant avoid it. eh oh well..


----------



## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Holden1984 said:


> ha ha like how every article of clothing says made in china, mexico, vietnam, or taiwan? haha yeah you cant avoid it. eh oh well..


*Ain't that the truth. I posted before about Hershey Foods threatening to close both chocolate factories in Hershey Pa and move the operations to Mexico. Hershey is a gorgeous town, very well manicured well kept and spotless. To live there is expensive despite Hershey having an amusement park that draws tens of millions during the summer months, has a stadium that brings in headliner music groups. Hershey makes billions a year from all they have to offer. Taxes are very high for the residents even though tourism is high there. The mainstay chocolate factory is Hershey itself. Billions in profits are not enough anymore. Oil companies have proved this.

The public was begging Hershey not to pull up shop and leave but the laws that permit corporations to move out of the country are so tempting to companies, in their eyes it makes sense not to stay. Long story short, the company made the union bend so the factories would not close. They are however laying off many and building a new plant in Monterey Mexico to do there what they did in Hershey for a long long time. 

Our government officials want to cry foul and call meetings with corporations and plead with them not to move out of the country while in the mean time they make it lucrative for the companies to move out.

Remember after WW II Japan named a town USA. They made goods in that town and imported them to the states and the products said Made in USA. Needless to say that didn't last long. It the government wants to do something about it they will, until then......*


----------



## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

The GTO is neither an Aussie nor a US car. It's an example of Global Parts Bin Engineering by our friends at GM. A very nice example of bringing some very good existing components together to create a great value in an affordable grand touring car.


Opel - German .....chassis design (from the mid 90's.....aka Cadillac Catera)
Holden - Aussie .....body and interior design plus final assembly
Chevrolet - USA .....LS2 engine and T56 transmission from the current Corvette
Pontiac - USA .....screwing with the Monaro styling and some really bad marketing plus a shaky dealer network
GMNA - USA .....allowing the car to be imported to the US


----------



## PEARL JAM (Sep 6, 2005)

Wing_Nut said:


> The GTO is neither an Aussie nor a US car. It's an example of Global Parts Bin Engineering by our friends at GM. A very nice example of bringing some very good existing components together to create a great value in an affordable grand touring car.
> 
> 
> Opel - German .....chassis design (from the mid 90's.....aka Cadillac Catera)
> ...


I always examine the parts I install at my Chevroletdealership. Tiawan, Mexico, Indonisia, Malasia, some are even made in the U.S.! The days of buy here built here have been gone since the 50's.


----------



## GibsonUSA (Jan 8, 2006)

I read in consumer reports how the Toyota Camry was 85% American made and how the "All American" Ford Mustang was only 45% American made.

It's hard to convince someone who goes to work every day to spend their hard earned money on an inferior product just because "it's an American brand." Minivans, for example. Every review I read talks about how the Japanese and Korean brands totally and utterly outclass the American brands. In fact, GM is phasing out its minivans altogether, leaving only the Caravan and the pathetic Ford Freestar. 

When I told people I was considering a GM car, all my friend were like "Don't buy American!!"....as in, American cars suck. It was only after I told them that my choices were actually imported and badged American that they accepted it.


----------



## Route 66 (May 30, 2005)

All I have to say is that, regardless of who owns the company that built the GTO...its the people that put it together that makes all the difference in the world. The build quality is better than anything GM assembles in the US....which says alot about Australian people... apparently they take pride in what they do. Too bad in the US its always about the almighty dollar...and how much money you can make by doing the least amount of work.


----------



## PEARL JAM (Sep 6, 2005)

Route 66 said:


> and how much money you can make by doing the least amount of work.


That's the Union credo, brother.


----------



## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

*Proud to be American Labor*



GibsonUSA said:


> When I told people I was considering a GM car, all my friend were like "Don't buy American!!"....as in, American cars suck. It was only after I told them that my choices were actually imported and badged American that they accepted it.


As an American I find this mind set insulting. Have you ever been to an assembly plant? Watched how cars are actually built? It is the same highly automated process world wide (except in China, but they are learning quickly). If you believe we are inferior move to Timbuktu or Iraq. You'll find plenty of folks over there that share your disdain for all things American. Oh, if you buy the GTO you better change out the engine and trans with a Mazda 3 so your friends don't wrinkle there noses at the American muscle under the hood.



Route 66 said:


> The build quality is better than anything GM assembles in the US....which says alot about Australian people... apparently they take pride in what they do. Too bad in the US its always about the almighty dollar...and how much money you can make by doing the least amount of work.


Obviously folks subscribing to this mindless banter about the GTO haven't read the laundry list of problems the Holden product has,,, from paint, to weather leaks, strut problems, tire failures, rear suspension component assemblies not completed, excess engine oil consumption, yada, yada yada,,, please, leave the whining to the rear differential. The fit and finish on my 99 Grand Prix and wife's 06 Torrent look better then the hood alignment of my 06 GTO or the dimples in the trunk lid cover. Still, I love my OZ built Goat because its Chevy powered, looks great and cost $15k less then a basic Vette. Also, I can seat 2 more people if I want to and get the same thrill ride of acceleration when droppin the hammer down. Oh yea least I forget, I've been down under and the OZ people are great, but don't forget they started out as a very remote penal colony of the British empire and there same as here, still have a few slackers amongst them.




PEARL JAM said:


> That's the Union credo, brother.


Sorry, Pearl but your negative opinion on organized labor is typical middle or lower management BS. Fact, non union workers are paid on average a higher wage in the same areas as union workers, so employers can keep organized labor out. The advantage of union membership are benefits like work rules, standard hours of work and shift differential for non standard hours, health and pension. Generally, work rules help protect workers by requiring employers to provide protective gear and added compensation for hazardous working conditions. It's a broad topic but the bottom line is, unionization does add cost to an employers bottom line but its an employer who decides for themselves if its beneficial or not to have union workers based on their profit margin to labor cost ratio or if its desirable to have a higher talent pool that organized labor provides. Outside of north Jersey, nobody's holding a gun to an employers head to hire union workers. 

Now I do have to agree, some municipal and government union members do represent the less then enthusiastic and there's always people who abuse any system along with some unions that have strange work rules where members get extra compensation if they actually work (again the gun theory). Mine on the other hand isn't and doesn't. If you can't pull your weight at sea, your history because somebody else has to and there isn't any extra pay for it. By working hard and smart, you get to safely make an ocean crossing without having a mechanical breakdown (which is all the motivation in the world in my industry) or personal injury. There's no pullin over and calling for help and no doctor onboard to patch you up. 

Red Beard


----------



## dustyminpin (Jun 19, 2006)

As for my UAW experience, I hired in at Teledyne Continental Motors at the tender age of 27, and almost didn't get the job because I was too young and couldn't possibly have enough real world experience running and programming computer-numerical-controlled machines (the average age of the CNC machinist is 52 years old). I passed a few on the spot tests they threw at me and was able to squeak my foot in the door. At 27 years old, I was the youngest machinist in the steel shop. 

Red Beard is right about the "if you ain't top of the line you're gone" "creedo", and also, there are turds in every work place and in every field so generalizing that all unions are lazy is just plain retarded (or suspiciously coming from the mouth of a salaried dude in middle to lower management as Red Beard stated earlier). 

Everything we do has both a paper trail and a digital trail to the company's main frame. You can tell who made what crank shaft, cam, rocker arm, connecting rod, cylinder, whatever, when it was made, and how long it took to make it. An airplane falls out of the sky and kills whoever was in it, the FAA comes knocking on our door along with a slew of lawyers. If it was craftsmanship, guess what.....it takes a click of a mouse to find out who the culprit was on whatever part that failed and you're a fired ass. How's that for motivation to be the best in your field? 

Oh, Red Beard, you're right about the hood aligment sucking on your '06, mine sucks too and you're the first one I've heard speak of it on here. Comparing the gaps between the hood and the fenders are OK, but if you got a keen eye, you'll see the gap between the front of the hood and the front fascia is off from left to right.
Dustin.


----------



## Route 66 (May 30, 2005)

Hey Red......I drive an '03 Crown vic for a living... its had more recalls than I can count on my fingers and toes. Wheels, brakes, fuel system, elecrical system, trannies, trans cooler lines, rear ends, gas tanks, compressors...etc.
Im not saying the goat is the 'cats meow' of vehicles...but Ive driven lots of US cars in my 45 years and the GTO is the tightest car I have ever owned. 
And I said nothing about unions. IMO, yes, most have outlived their usefulness...but not all are bad. Its just the way the world is....especially in America.......every one wants to get paid top dollar for little work. Every one believes they deserve respect without earning it.........and no one takes responsibility for their actions. Aaaarrrgh! dont get me started! :willy:


----------



## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Route 66 said:


> especially in America.......every one wants to get paid top dollar for little work. Every one believes they deserve respect without earning it.........and no one takes responsibility for their actions. Aaaarrrgh! dont get me started! :willy:


*Many people view pro union people as money mongers and wanting to get top dollar and bleed a company for all it's worth and protecting lazy workers with fire insurance. Fact is that is not the case. Job protections for one's family lies within being protected from a company that will screw you over faster than you shake your head. If you work for a ruthless company that will fire you because you have gotten hurt, you hit a certain age, or are no longer the viable asset you were to them 20 years earlier then you know what I am stating.

If you work for an employer that respects you, your input to the company, your longevity to them and your dedication then you are fortunate. If you are lucky enough to work for a company like that then you cannot fully comprehend the work place environment of going in to work every day not knowing if it's your last, or if you hurt yourself at home, the company forcing you on FMLA and after 12 weeks you are terminated. You don't know what it is like to have to get a lawyer to advise you of rights under the law an employer will violate and if you question it you are fired. 

This topic of pro union-anti union, and at will work status has been beaten to death and I am not going to rehash it. 

There still is usefulness of job protection in the country when you have employers out there that will hose you and fire you with no just cause. Companies cause unions, people loose site of this fact. That UAW guy on the assembly line is paying to make sure he is not a causality of some of the unjust treatment from an employer described above and on other posts.

A plant I worked for makes workers who are injured outside of the work place sign FMLA papers before they go on STD. Case in point, a co-worker I used to work with came down with cancer, his employer made him sign FMLA documents. 12 weeks later he was fired, he lost all of his medical insurance. He had NO insurance to help fight the cancer that was taking over his body. He could not afford it. HE died in a very short time. He gave over 10 years to this company and was a dedicated worker who had no absentee issues, or work issues. 
This was his thanks. In his and his family's time of need, he was fired and lost all the insurance he had. At least he didn't have union dues to pay eh?*


----------



## dustyminpin (Jun 19, 2006)

Judge, some people just don't get it. 9 10's out of ten it's those that never had a blue collar job. For those who smash mouth unions, I encourage you to state your wages and your job title. I'll start. Dustin McCullough, Employee for Teledyne Continental Motors, CNC Machinist, work 7 days a week 12 hours a day (by choice and for $, doubletime on Sundays), gross annual income = $60,000 hired in 2004, 75K last year, 84K this year. Not bad for a work your fingers to the bone 7 days a week blue collar guy eh? My point is that most union smash mouthers make far more then this and have WHITE collar jobs working 40 hours a week....
Dustin.


----------



## Wing_Nut (Mar 6, 2005)

dustyminpin said:


> Judge, some people just don't get it. 9 10's out of ten it's those that never had a blue collar job. For those who smash mouth unions, I encourage you to state your wages and your job title. I'll start. Dustin McCullough, Employee for Teledyne Continental Motors, CNC Machinist, work 7 days a week 12 hours a day (by choice and for $, doubletime on Sundays), gross annual income = $60,000 hired in 2004, 75K last year, 84K this year. Not bad for a work your fingers to the bone 7 days a week blue collar guy eh? My point is that most union smash mouthers make far more then this and have WHITE collar jobs working 40 hours a week....
> Dustin.


It would seem there are misconceptions on both sides. Most white collar jobs from middle management up to the C-level executive suite are not 40 hour propositions. Many salaried people are tethered to the office 24 X 7 by Blackberry, cell phone, and computer. We work into the night after you punch out and go home. We work nights, weekends, and holidays even if can't see us at the plant or office. I've executed verbal deals for $25 million in natural gas on Christmas Eve. All day Christmas Eve. True story! We spend days or weeks away from family traveling to meet suppliers, investors, customers, wall street analysts, etc, etc, etc. We spend more time maintaining accreditation in our field or at seminars to stay abreast of industry trends and new tools. Wanna make the big bucks? Do ya really? You won't be putting in 40 hours. And, the clock can start at any time. You'll never know when. If you'll forgive me, I must decline your request to share my income with you. Why? Because I believe it's bad etiquette, you wouldn't believe me, and it may cause resentment here.

With that said, my own experience as a union member came as a member of the IBEW for two summers while I was in college. I was working for Raytheon where my uncle (a middle manager) landed me a summer job. I was a light electronics assembler along with a handful of other 20 year old kids. We were all idealistic goobers trying to show what a good job we could do. First, the shop steward "counseled us" to slow down. We were clueless so, when we didn't take the hint, we were told in no uncertain terms to slow it the [email protected]#k down. We were really pissing off the permanent union members. We couldn't work at half speed! We would blow through the light assembly work and ask to help the heavy assemblers. Nope, can't do that. Sit there and read a book. Just be inconspicuous about it. Can we clean up? Nope, that's a janitor's job. We would forget to take breaks because we were into what we were doing. Uh oh, pissing off the union again. Got another lecture from the steward. Gotta take your break and you gotta leave your bench. Go sit in the parking lot for 20 minutes. I was paid 40 hours (2nd shift differential) all summer and I was bored stiff for about 20 of those hours. At the end of that experience, I was thoroughly disgusted with unions. The whole experience went against everything my parents ever taught me about hard work and pride of accomplishment. I know all unions and union people are not like this but the peer pressure on the good apples can be tremendous. Likewise, I know unions exist for a reason but they have become as corrupt as those they sought protection from.


----------



## Route 66 (May 30, 2005)

Thank you Wing Nut, well said.

Dusty,
Im a cop who makes 50k a year for 6 days a week 10+ hrs a day
My neighbor works at Allisons makin 80k, works 4 days a week, never come home dirty, and spends more time at the lake fishing than I do working.
But again, Im not bashing unions. I just think they have gotten a bit carried away. Belive me, Im American through n through..........and Im sick of outsiders taking our jobs. I think there needs to come a time when the US realizes it has a big problem..........we import everything and export next to nothing. Its a scary thought that our future lies in the hands of a few foreign countries.


----------



## dustyminpin (Jun 19, 2006)

Wing Nut, it's funny that you said you worked at Raytheon. I make the connecting rods for that motor and they are the most expensive rods we make. A set of 6 cost almost 5000 dollars. None orf the other rods I make cost anywhere near that. I just made rods for about 10 or their engines today. It makes me wonder how much the actual Raytheon airplanes are going for when the engines alone cost like 60,000.
Dustin.
1 more thing Wing Nut, my union experience couldn't have been farther from yours, but to each their own. And I guess I didn't consider it rude naming wages since in a union, at least mine anyway, there are no hidden pay scales, everybody knows what everybody is making because it's posted in the job classifications in our handbook. And your salary pay wouldn't embarrass me or offend me, my supervisor makes 91 grand a year and bitches that he doesn't make enough. My dad's cousin (my late grandpa's brother's son who does my taxes, whatever that'd make him to me) owns his own accounting firm in the posh Chicago suburb of Barrington, IL (where Walter Peyton used to live), has a 15 million dollar castle out in the middle of corn and soybean fields 90 miles south of the city and the corp of engineers rerouted a stream running through his back "yard" so he could have water hazards for his own personal 9 hole golf course. Talk about being humbled, go to this guy's house for a family reunion, lol. His "garage" is more like an indoor parking lot. But other then an old Vette he has, he's got crappy taste in cars.
Dustin.


----------



## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

_Haha._ :rofl: Lookit the Union-hack Shills for Socialism backpedal as they desperately look for ways to justify the fact that they've purchased a car with _far_ less U.S. built content than most Toyotas, Nissans, and Mitsus they see.



dustyminpin said:


> My engine and tranny were built in the USA with the rest of the Vettes and shipped oversees to be put into a badass little 2 door 4 seater.


Sorry, sparky. You get the buzzer here. Engine was built in Canada, transmission in Mexico.

The fact that our cars have a _single-digit percentage_ UAW-built content was a _huge_ selling point for me. Screw the Union hacks.

Funny thing, too...the BMW Z4 M-Coupe I'm looking at buying to replace the Holden has over _twice_ the (non-Union!) U.S. - built content.

That's the best thing of all.


----------



## rcu316 (Jan 28, 2007)

GibsonUSA said:


> When I told people I was considering a GM car, all my friend were like "Don't buy American!!"....as in, American cars suck.


Hmmmm, sounds like you NEED some new friends! :willy:


----------



## Kingsford (Sep 30, 2005)

b_a_betterperson said:


> Americans? They buy whatever the hell they want -- and could care less about keeping their own employed.


It's called economic freedom and it's ours to enjoy as American citizens.


----------



## dustyminpin (Jun 19, 2006)

Hey Groucho, my boss at work (that used to work for GM up in Detroit) said you were right about the LS2's being made in Canada. Kudos to you. He said they are shipped down to Bowling Green for installation. The LS7's are hand-built (like our Continental Motors engines) in a plant up in Detroit where the GM proving ground is. He did say, however, that you were wrong about the trannies being built in Mexico. He said they are built at GM's Willow Run factory just outside of Detroit. One of the two of you are wrong. 

On an off topic note, I got my new Car and Driver today and they had a 4 way comparo with an Audi TT vs. Nissan 350Z vs. Mazda RX-8 vs. Ford Shelby GT (a slightly modified version of the mustang putting out an extra 19 hp over the stock GT version (this is NOT the GT500, and I didn't even know this version of the stang existed until I got this magazine). Anyways, the mustang finished last, lol, nissan 3rd, audi 2nd and mazda 1st. The RX-8 finishing first supprised me, only having 232 hp and 159 lbs. of torque. Don't see how it could keep up with the other cars with numbers like that.


----------



## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

dustyminpin said:


> He did say, however, that you were wrong about the trannies being built in Mexico. He said they are built at GM's Willow Run factory just outside of Detroit. One of the two of you are wrong.


He is. 

Tremec has a Sales and Marketing office in Farmington Hills, Michigan...and a parts manufacturing plant in Tennessee, but _all Tremec light duty (T56) and medium-duty trannies are built in Queretaro, Mexico._

Source- Tremec's own site: http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/aboutus/facilities.asp



> TTC has manufacturing facilities located in Queretaro, Mexico and Knoxville, Tennessee in the United States. Our Mexican manufacturing plants, which include light-, medium- and heavy-duty operations, are dedicated to the production of transmission parts and assemblies. Our U.S.-based manufacturing operations focus on the production of components such as shift assemblies and clutch-release components. The Knoxville facility also performs all packaging and distribution of service products, as well as in-line sequencing of the transmissions for efficient just-in-time shipments. Engineering support for manufacturing operations exists within every facility, while sales and marketing support comes from our U.S.-based office in Farmington Hills, Michigan.


This puts the Monaro's US-made parts percentage well into the single digits.


----------



## GTOJon (Jan 25, 2005)

So is it the "wonderfully hideous" spoiler (Groucho's Pontiackkkkisms hehe) one of the only US-made parts on this car?


----------



## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

GTOJon said:


> So is it the "wonderfully hideous" spoiler (Groucho's Pontiackkkkisms hehe) one of the only US-made parts on this car?



Is the spoiler even US- made?

I would doubt it.


----------



## GTOJon (Jan 25, 2005)

Maybe we can keep it as, "world manufactured car assembled in Australia" or "multi-national car assembled in Australia".

Regardless, we have a SOLID and all around kick arse car, period.


----------



## 4 BKT VET (Mar 28, 2006)

It's an Ausi. Just sit in the car for a while, touch things, drive one with some miles on it. Does that feel American to you? Not me, that's why I bought it. GM America needs to get their **** together BIG F$%^ing time. Any wonder they are bring in a car badged as a G8?


----------



## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

4 BKT VET said:


> It's an Ausi. Just sit in the car for a while, touch things, drive one with some miles on it. Does that feel American to you? Not me, that's why I bought it. GM America needs to get their **** together BIG F$%^ing time. Any wonder they are bring in a car badged as a G8?


Yea, its from OZ with Detroit influence. Holden historically builds scaled down versions of GM's American designed cars and puts their own mark on it with subtle changes.

Don't know about your GTO, but mine feels like a Caddy CTS-V without the fluff. You won't get that from a Miata or Civic. The roof line and hood lines are near identical to the 97~03 Grand Prix, the steering wheel is a ditto from the current GP and the interior cloth panel material & headliner are the same as my wife's 06 Pontiac Torrent (grills are the same too). I've bought a total of 9 GM cars or trucks in the past 34 years of driving and haven't had problems outside of consumable parts like brake pads and batteries before I traded them in. I still have an 83 K2500 PKUP with 250k miles, a 91 S-10 Blazer with 220k along with my 99 Grand Prix with 108k. They've needed tires and one each alternator change in addition to the routine consumable parts as above. Nothing's perfect, that's just my experience with GM. 

As for rebadging, simple answer. Tooling cost to gear up a new product line is expensive and much cheeper to use one that is already in assembly someplace else. You also have to understand the "General" is a global company with its headquarters in Detroit and the owners are people who own stock in the company, which can be anyone. As for OZ build quality, come on now, all you have to do is read this forum to see what problems other have had and its been extensive.... assembly cost, higher labor cost in OZ (which is highly unionized) compared to America, but that is negated if they had to tool up a plant here or Mexico. Unless they could get a 10 year production run to recoup capital investment. 

Red Beard


----------



## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

Groucho said:


> _Haha._ :rofl: Lookit the Union-hack Shills for Socialism backpedal as they desperately look for ways to justify the fact that they've purchased a car with _far_ less U.S. built content than most Toyotas, Nissans, and Mitsus they see.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey, enjoy your new ride in a brat burner with a build quality that only drunkin German engineering can offer. Yup, a 6 pack work day is common in Germany from a work force that only has a 30 hour work week, manditory 6 weeks vacation and did I mention all the beer you can swill while your working. But hell you'll be sportin a badge you can puff your snobby chest out about.

Before all you GM and UAW bashers go off to suck your puds together, check Holden's history in styling. Every thing built has been scaled down versions of GM's American products. Most are cross dressed between Chevy, Pontiac, Olds and Buick. The reborn Monaro that went into production in 2002 (04 ~ 06 GTO) has Pontiac styling lines in the roof details and hood from the 97 ~ 03 Grand Prix. Nose and rear are purely Holden, suspension Opel, power by Chevy. 

The 70's vintage Monaro's that the current version's reputation was built upon in OZ, have late 60's Pontiac GTO body lines with a 70's Nova looking nose. Power plant was pure American V8, specifically a Monaro HQ:


----------



## Gotagoat (Jan 6, 2006)

I bought some chocolate pudding last week. Tasted like fish. I checked the label. Made in China.


----------



## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

Red Bearded Goat said:


> Hey, enjoy your new ride in a brat burner with a build quality that only drunkin German engineering can offer. Yup, a 6 pack work day is common in Germany from a work force that only has a 30 hour work week, manditory 6 weeks vacation and did I mention all the beer you can swill while your working. But hell you'll be sportin a badge you can puff your snobby chest out about.


_Pssst._ Hey, Nancy- the E86 is built in _South Carolina_. That's in the U.S. of A. _Really_.

Oh. and by the way- At 104k miles, my Monaro rattles and clangs more than a ladle factory manned by members of the Parkinson's Disease Foundation.

My last Bimmer was still rock solid at 176k.

Here's a quarter. See if you can buy a clue. Unless you want to continue to embarass yourself...which you are obviously inclined to do.



Red Bearded Goat said:


> Before all you GM and UAW bashers go off to suck your puds together, check Holden's history in styling. Every thing built has been scaled down versions of GM's American products. Most are cross dressed between Chevy, Pontiac, Olds and Buick. The reborn Monaro that went into production in 2002 (04 ~ 06 GTO) has Pontiac styling lines in the roof details and hood from the 97 ~ 03 Grand Prix.


----------



## NoToDoD (Jun 27, 2006)

Ausi, American, German, Martian... how useless are these labels for complex products? That only tells me where the taxes are going.

Swallow the jagged pill, ppl. The only label to be proud of is "GTO". Oh wait, that's Italian. :willy:


----------



## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

Groucho said:


> _Pssst._ Hey, Nancy- the E86 is built in _South Carolina_. That's in the U.S. of A. _Really_.
> 
> Oh. and by the way- At 104k miles, my Monaro rattles and clangs more than a ladle factory manned by members of the Parkinson's Disease Foundation.
> 
> ...



Oh Mary the grouch, what's that white stuff on your lips? Cupcake batter?

"Assembled" in SC by good ole boys using socialist Germany built components by former commies of the eastern block that smell of Beck's,,, mybad if I'd only had a crystal ball. That's only half good, do you know which and why?

Only 176k miles. I've got an S-10 with 220K and still own it for off road fun and winter weather.... runs like new and still gets 20mpg around town.

Before I go cupcake, your "GTO" might not rattle so much if you had the talent to maintain it properly. Denial is a mental deficiency easily treated with proper medication. Have you taken your Prozac today? Do you need some Midol for your bloated ego or is it a case of PMS your going through? Let the tears flow honey, it will only make you feel better... 

Suckin a bone out of ignorance doesn't make ya smart, just leaves ya with a substance that looks like batter on your face. 

Enjoy the kraut, hack, hope you don't suffer from postpartum depression with your new baby.:lol:

Red Beard


----------



## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

NoToDoD said:


> Ausi, American, German, Martian... how useless are these labels for complex products? That only tells me where the taxes are going.
> 
> Swallow the jagged pill, ppl. The only label to be proud of is "GTO". Oh wait, that's Italian. :willy:


Now that was funny! :cheers


----------



## Groucho (Sep 11, 2004)

Red Bearded Goat said:


> *snivel*



Damn. I done hit me a Mullet Nerve! :lol: 



Red Bearded Goat said:


> *I've got an S-10 with 220K and still own it for off road fun and winter weather.... runs like new and still gets 20mpg around town.


Wow- that's amazing!

Imagine what she'd get if it wasn't towing your house around!


----------



## Gotagoat (Jan 6, 2006)

Damn, guys, this is beginning to sound personal...


----------



## Red Bearded Goat (Mar 19, 2007)

Gotagoat said:


> Damn, guys, this is beginning to sound personal...


Yea, I think she's in need of a tampon or a maxie pad to stop the flow,,,,


----------



## RichardMoss (Jan 22, 2011)

There's no such thing as a 100% domestic "vehicle" any more. Manufacturers design and source wherever suits them best.

The GTO is an Aussie built coupe based upon a German designed platform and fitted with an American engine. In much the same way, next time you fly in a Boeing it will have European built parts on it (not just airframe and other components, it may have British engines made by Rolls Royce) and an Airbus will have American built parts (perhaps GE engines!).

This is the way it is and it won't go back to the way it was. My 1969 MGC GT, however, is almost completely British built but those days are gone - for all of us.

In the meantime, just try *ENJOYING *your car - wherever it comes from.

By the way, I'm a Brit, working in Abu Dhabi and we own a Kia, an Alfa Romeo and Chevy Lumina Coupe (Pontiac GTO to you chaps).


----------



## LS2 MN6 (Jul 14, 2010)

Holy thread revival batman!


----------



## HP11 (Apr 11, 2009)

RichardMoss said:


> There's no such thing as a 100% domestic "vehicle" any more. Manufacturers design and source wherever suits them best.
> 
> The GTO is an Aussie built coupe based upon a German designed platform and fitted with an American engine. In much the same way, next time you fly in a Boeing it will have European built parts on it (not just airframe and other components, it may have British engines made by Rolls Royce) and an Airbus will have American built parts (perhaps GE engines!).
> 
> ...


Bored?


----------



## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Nearly 4 year old thread on a topic that died along with the car.


----------



## Poncho Dan (Jun 30, 2009)

I seem to remember a lot of threads with Groucho being hostile like this, even before I signed up as a member. Hope he sold/smashed his car...


----------



## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

Closed. This thread ran it's course 4 years ago. What can be said, has been said already.....


----------

