# Decoding '64 Data Plate



## GRIM64 (Jan 23, 2009)

What does the 3-2 mean in the top right corner of this '64 GTO Data Plate?


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

I've never seen that code, does the car have a tri-power?


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## GRIM64 (Jan 23, 2009)

Don't know? I found this car today and it has no motor or trans - thinking I might buy it.


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

Are you familar with PHS Automotive Services?


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## GRIM64 (Jan 23, 2009)

Not at all...


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

In 64 and 65 the GTOs were not identified with a distinctive vin code, so the car you are looking at may be a Lemans. PHS Automotive Services has records of all pontiacs built during that period. The cost for a report is $50 and they will mail to you the build sheet and billing history. For an additional $15 they will fax this information to you as well. 

This is a must have when looking to purchase Baltimore MD and Fremont CA built 64 and 65 GTOs.


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## GRIM64 (Jan 23, 2009)

Can the PHS get all the needed info from just this tag or do they also need the VIN # ?

Also it's a 4 speed car...


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

They need the VIN code, The v-8 lemans and the GTO's vin started with 824, if the vin starts with 624 it will be for a 6-cylinder lemans.


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## GRIM64 (Jan 23, 2009)

Roger that - thanks for the good info. I'll get the VIN # tomorrow and have the PHS run the numbers.


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

Good luck and let us know what happens,


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## GRIM64 (Jan 23, 2009)

Here's some more photos of the Pontiac...
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t84/Jetvourax/WebInterior.gif

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t84/Jetvourax/RRearGTOWeb.gif

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t84/Jetvourax/MotorWeb.gif

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t84/Jetvourax/LSideGTOWeb.gif

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t84/Jetvourax/GTORearWeb.gif

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t84/Jetvourax/FrontLGTOWeb.gif


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

Not a bad looking post coupe project, it has some potential and appears to have the correct badging of a GTO. The money spent on PHS would be a good investment. A lemans in that condition would be worth a few thousand less than a true GTO. A tri-power GTO would be worth a little more than a standard GTO.

JMHO,


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## GRIM64 (Jan 23, 2009)

Thanks Randy - 
I was reading another thread regarding a car that had been rebodied and his VIN #'s weren't matching up so that always concerns me when dealing with a barn find so to speak. Two things that concern me on this car:
1. There is no title.
2. The trunk lid is a greener color than the rest of the body (body appears to be Gulfstream Aqua) so was the lid slapped on later? It still has the dealership tag on it but that might have been from another Pontiac. Supposedly the car is a Denver car and the frame has no rust so that tends to support the claim - also the interior floor pans are not rusted at all either.

BTW - how desirable are '63 Tempests?


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

GRIM64 said:


> Thanks Randy -
> I was reading another thread regarding a car that had been rebodied and his VIN #'s weren't matching up so that always concerns me when dealing with a barn find so to speak. Two things that concern me on this car:
> 1. There is no title.
> 2. The trunk lid is a greener color than the rest of the body (body appears to be Gulfstream Aqua) so was the lid slapped on later? It still has the dealership tag on it but that might have been from another Pontiac. Supposedly the car is a Denver car and the frame has no rust so that tends to support the claim - also the interior floor pans are not rusted at all either.
> ...


A big reason to get the PHS docs. They will verify the options on the car and the build date to compare to the data plate. Example, if the original color overspray under the carpet doesn't match the PHS docs, something is fishy.
Also, I believe the VIN tag was spot welded on the door post in 64, so if the current tag is attached with screws or steel pop rivets, it could be suspect.

I only see one exhaust pipe in the engine compartment but possibly a resonator on the right rear. Is the other pipe missing in the engine bay pic or did it have 6 cylinder ???


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

I was reading another thread regarding a car that had been rebodied and his VIN #'s weren't matching up so that always concerns me when dealing with a barn find so to speak. 

I doubt that car has every been off of the frame, plus the data plate and vin will identify the car being a post and the plant where the car was built. 

Two things that concern me on this car:
1. There is no title.
Most States allow older cars to be sold with a bill of sale, check with your State and see if they require a title or a bill of sale.

2. The trunk lid is a greener color than the rest of the body (body appears to be Gulfstream Aqua) so was the lid slapped on later? It still has the dealership tag on it but that might have been from another Pontiac. Supposedly the car is a Denver car and the frame has no rust so that tends to support the claim - also the interior floor pans are not rusted at all either.

More than likely the deck lid was from another car,

BTW - how desirable are '63 Tempests? I would like to have a 61-63 Tempest, the 4 banger was a 389 cut in half and in 63 they offered the 326, the car was balanced perfectly using a transaxle rearend. Very unique and cool car.


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## GRIM64 (Jan 23, 2009)

I also saw the single exhaust pipe in the engine bay and that got me wondering. It does have two exhaust pipes coming out the rear but they are different looking from each other - doesn't mean that it was added later on to make it a V8 as it could be a simple repair at an exhaust shop years later...

Tempest has a 326 - all original.

Also spotted a '70 Chevelle SS and a '70 Lemans/GTO? rear end sticking out by another barn. I've GOT to head back and follow up on those too...


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

05GTO said:


> BTW - how desirable are '63 Tempests? I would like to have a 61-63 Tempest, the 4 banger was a 389 cut in half and in 63 they offered the 326, the car was balanced perfectly using a transaxle rearend. Very unique and cool car.


There is a nice looking baby blue with blue interior`62 2dr Tempest with that engine in the next town from me. It's a 4 4 4 car. 4 cyl, 4bbl, 4 speed. They are asking $4600.00.
Been considering pulling the trigger.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Randy, I think the word "rebody" is being taken out of context here. It doesn't refer to a body being removed but the VIN tag from a "donor" being put on in place of the original tag such as the case with the 67 LeMans. Clone is the same thing. Retag, rebadge and pass it off as the real thing. I assume the same as you from the pics. It appears the car is mostly original from the date of manufacture, the question is, was it a factory GTO, or has it been retagged and badged to make it appear as such. His getting the PHS docs faxed to him and re-visiting the car to compare them and look at the clues we have presented should put any doubt to rest. Right now, it's all just speculation and opinion. The ball is back in his court. He now has enough info on how to verify the car and if he is serious that should be his next move.


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## GRIM64 (Jan 23, 2009)

Ordering the PHS today...


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

GRIM64 said:


> Ordering the PHS today...


PHS also has reproduction window stickers showing the options and price of the car, when I place my cars in shows the window sticker draws as much attention as the car.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Rukee, that Tempest is a rare bird. I have some magazine articles somewhere from 1962 that has Mickey Thompson souping up a 4 cyl Tempest: he got 255 HP from it! They are neat cars, and get a lot of attention: I can't remember the last time I saw one on the road!! In this economy, I'll bet the guy would take 3500 cash! Also, I sent your diagram out in the mail yesterday......


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

Check this story out;



> *eBay Find of the Day: 1963 LeMans Tempest sells for $226,521*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


eBay Find of the Day: 1963 LeMans Tempest sells for $226,521 - Autoblog


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

The original all aluminum front clip has been in FL for many years but no one knew where the rest of it was until that auction. After seeing the buyer spend 226k for the car can you imagine what they will want for the 1 and only original front clip to go with it ??? I agree the car is super rare and undoubtabley valuable, but that kind of money is just insane. It's people with that kind of money that have driven this "hobby" right out of the hands of the ones who kept these cars alive over the years. The backyard gearhead.


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## Aramz06 (Mar 2, 2008)

05GTO said:


> Check this story out;
> 
> 
> 
> eBay Find of the Day: 1963 LeMans Tempest sells for $226,521 - Autoblog


Holy smokes, is that car really worth that much with no trans or engine?


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

I wonder what the car would have sold for with the 421 2x4bbl super duty engine under the hood.


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

Too Many Projects said:


> The original all aluminum front clip has been in FL for many years but no one knew where the rest of it was until that auction. After seeing the buyer spend 226k for the car can you imagine what they will want for the 1 and only original front clip to go with it ??? I agree the car is super rare and undoubtabley valuable, but that kind of money is just insane. It's people with that kind of money that have driven this "hobby" right out of the hands of the ones who kept these cars alive over the years. The backyard gearhead.


:agree I'm speechless, and that's a rarity. Ask my wife!


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Last I read about it, the new owner was in negotiations for the original front clip and a correct SD engine. Speculation is about 1m when restored. 

Interesting to wonder on a price if it had been complete Randy. Half a mil ??


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## GRIM64 (Jan 23, 2009)

PHS ordered. I'll post the info when the fax returns.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

GRIM64 said:


> PHS ordered. I'll post the info when the fax returns.


Now you're making progress.........


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

Too Many Projects said:


> Last I read about it, the new owner was in negotiations for the original front clip and a correct SD engine. Speculation is about 1m when restored.
> 
> Interesting to wonder on a price if it had been complete Randy. Half a mil ??


At least 500k for the complete car before being restored, there were only 6 super duty coupes and 6 super duty wagons built before GM banned the racing program. I'd love to get one of the wagons.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

05GTO said:


> At least 500k for the complete car before being restored, there were only 6 super duty coupes and 6 super duty wagons built before GM banned the racing program. I'd love to get one of the wagons.


I think I read that one of the wagons recently changed hands for 6-700k in race condition. That would be a bargain compared to 500k for an unrestored car....:lol:


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Here's a link to that `62 4 4 4 car. I'm more interested in Muscle cars so I just can't do it. 

Original 1962 Pontiac Tempest ... Sweet car!!!!


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Awwww.....you just don't want to wear yourself out fighting off all of the women who would be throwing themselves at you!!!!


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

:lol:


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## GRIM64 (Jan 23, 2009)

OK - got the PHS info:

Sold from "Utter Motor Company" in Spokane, WA"

W62 - GTO option
U63 - Pushbutton Radio
U05 - Dual Horns
T86 - Backup Lights
P01 - Cover Wheel Delete
N30 - STR WHL
N10 - Dual Exhaust
M20 - Trans 4 speed
D33 - O/S Remote Mirror
C11 - Wash/Wiper
B94 - Deck Emblems
B90 - REV MLDG S/W
B80 - BRP MLDG CHR
B10 - Insert Panel
A50 - Bucket Seats
A49 - Seat Belts Front Pair

Built in the Fremont Plant
4 Bbl 389 Cu In (10.75 Compression) V8 eng - dual exhaust

Trans code:
W - 4 speed M20 wide ratio

Engine Code:
325 HP, 389 4 Bbl 

Axle Code:
K - 3.23

Interior code: 217 Dark Aqua

Exterior code: Q Gulfstream Aqua

What do you guys think? Rare car or not? How many GTO's were optioned in '64 ?


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

GRIM64 said:


> What do you guys think? Rare car or not? How many GTO's were optioned in '64 ?


It's a true GTO, that is good and it seems to be slightly optioned. A/C would be nice but I guess it wasn't needed in WA.


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## GRIM64 (Jan 23, 2009)

Also just found a '63 Tempest convertible with the 4 banger...

Once again... Rare car?


(I would have loved to have found a '63 Tempest hardtop and make a Tameless Tiger with it...  )


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## crustysack (Oct 5, 2008)

did you ever figure out what the 3-2 meant?? I saw another data plate with a 1 in that location on ultimate gto website with no explanation.


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## GRIM64 (Jan 23, 2009)

Not yet - I asked the fellow at PHS but haven't heard back from him yet. No one that I've spoken to around here knows the answer either. (Or if they do know what it means and for some reason makes it valuable they are waiting for me to pass on the car then they'll gladly jump on it)...


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## GRIM64 (Jan 23, 2009)

Well - his answer was:

We don't place much faith in the information on the Body Tag, other than for

the color and trim. These tags were put there by Fisher Body and there is a

huge inconsistency in the information on these plates from one assembly 

plant to another.

So I guess we'll never know what that means... has anyone else ever seen this on a tag before?


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

You could go ask these guys, some of them really know the tags and #s.

64-65 GTO Tempest & LeMans TECH - PY Online Forums


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

GRIM64: Coincidence! My '65 was sold by Utter Motor Company in Spokane on June 3, 1965. The new owner drove it to California the following year, where it has been ever since. Utter is now out of business. My car was built in Fremont, CA, shipped by train to Spokane, and then ended up spending the next 43 years wihin spitting distance of where it was built! That '64 of yours is a nicely optioned car, in an especially good looking color combo for that year. Good luck with it.


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## GRIM64 (Jan 23, 2009)

Rukee - Thanks I'll head over there and ask about the data tag... I'll let you know what they say.

Geeteeohguy - Weird that your '65 was in the same plant and dealer. Funny how it made it's way back home to the factory. Guess it was homesick!


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