# 69 starting issue



## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Hey all,

I'm having issues starting my 69. Outside the normal needs, fuel, fire and air are there any model specific issues to look for? This is my first difficulty with her since I purchased her in 2013.

I normally have to crank it and give it more gas than expected after sitting for a week or so, read same thing on this forum after searching for a solution, but now I've worn down the battery twice trying to start it. 

I charged the battery, added fuel manually, checked the choke operation (mostly closed when cold and held it open) and see smoke rising fro the carb or passenger side breather after a couple minutes or so of cranking (in short bursts). I've held held the pedal to the floor and pumped while cranking with no start. I need to verify I have spark tonight...

Particulars:
1. 99% Stock car (NOT standard points etc was upgraded to electronic bits in distributor)
2. Checked Choke (held open, slightly open when cold)
3. Manually provided fuel
4. Smoke from carb or breather after cranking for a while in short bursts
5. Throttle works as it should
6. All Fuses good
7. Danced in a circle on one foot while wearing a Nighshade Green headdress (beat you to it Anthony) .

As always thanks in advance for any and all help, it's much appreciated!

Dan


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

PS. Should have mentioned the engine, as far as I know, has never been cracked open and it has only 67K miles on it.


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## oldskool (Apr 26, 2015)

"...I need to verify I have spark tonight..."



Yeah, do this.


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## wings012345 (Sep 10, 2014)

I have the same issue you describe with my 68. if it sits a few days its tough too start. A shot of starting fluid fires her right up. Once started, she fires up all day. I've replaced the Fuel Pump and Rochester from Summit. My orig carb was shot. IM told the carb is prob leaking fuel from the bowl after a few days. Not sure. I will prob take the carb to a reputable rebuilder.


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

oldskool said:


> "...I need to verify I have spark tonight..."
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, do this.


I didn't have a partner to crank while I checked for fire...  which now 
i know I don't have. I can't find a coil so I assume it is on top of the distributor now.



This side says Tach Bat...



Any one have experience with this type of ignition?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

*Dan*: "Should have mentioned the engine, as far as I know, has never been cracked open and it has only 67K miles on it.

*PJim*: At that mileage, you may need a new timing chain and gears. The factory chains stretch and if it had the nylon gears, they are most likely worn. If you try and time the engine using the factory settings, they may be off enough to cause starting problems, so this could be a cause to some of your problems.

However, the "smoke" sounds like gas vapors, which tends to indicate your carb has a leak internally, bad gasket somewhere, needle and seat no closing completely, or your float level set too high or stuck.

*Dan*: "and see smoke rising from the carb or passenger side breather after a couple minutes or so of cranking (in short bursts)." 

*PJim*: I re-read this above. Smoke out the side breather? I don't think you would get enough gas vapor to come out of a side breather, BUT, from what you describe, could this actually be blow-by from the rings which would exit out the breather. So now I am confused a bit from your description. Need more info on "the breather."

Don't know what part of the country you live in, but here it is summer and almost 100 degrees. Your choke should be wide open the minute you pump the throttle to the floor once -if not, you may have it out of adjustment. If your car is flooding, it will be hard to start and any choke will make it worse. Have you tried starting it with your foot to the floor - carb wide open whie you crank - to clear the engine of excess gas? Make sure you have a fire extinguisher handy if you have a flooding problem and KEEP the air cleaner on as it can act as a flame retarder. One backfire through a flooded carb and you could lose your car to a fire.

On the distributor..... Did you yourself remove the points and put in the electronic conversion parts? Your distributor looks like an HEI unit which would have already had the electronics in it. The coil is indeed in the top of the cap. Often times the electronic module goes bad (under the cap) in these things and typically just quits on you, but I guess it could pitch a fit if it were letting you know it was about to quit.....the 5 minute warning.

You also have to have 12 volts to an HEI distributor, not the 8 volt resistor wire that would have been factory on a '69 car with points. Was this changed out?

Check this out - HEI Conversion

You may have a combination of problems or just one. You will just have to check step by step. Do you have a shop manual for you car?


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

PontiacJim said:


> *Dan*: "Should have mentioned the engine, as far as I know, has never been cracked open and it has only 67K miles on it.
> 
> *PJim*: At that mileage, you may need a new timing chain and gears. The factory chains stretch and if it had the nylon gears, they are most likely worn. If you try and time the engine using the factory settings, they may be off enough to cause starting problems, so this could be a cause to some of your problems.
> 
> ...



*Reply*: I do have an electronic version of the shop manual. I'll have to look at that as well. The link you posted above I found tonight in my searching the inter web.

Thanks for all the great information Jim. It's been a very long time (the 70s) since I worked on anything but mechanical systems on an old car (suspension, etc) so I have to retrain myself.

I'll start deigning into it tomorrow after I pay the bills.

Thanks again!!

Dan


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Here is what I found:

Coil is rattling inside the mount and has a burn or corroded spot. It seems to test ok with 0.5 on the Primary and 8,540 on the Secondary. I imagine it is not supposed to rattle around...



The rotor has been rubbing on something...




The rest of it looks ok...



The distributor cap is a bit scarred but not burned or worn.



This is a bit scarred on the bottom too.



Rotor tip is a bit worn as well... lousy pic.



I'm looking for a replacement coil but I'm not having much luck. I did find one site, Pertronix, and they show two different "versions", a Black/Yellow/Red and a White/Yellow/red. They suggest getting a new module to pair them. Other sites have the part for ~$30-90 but none of them say they work on GTOs. 

Should I get a kit and replace everything or is it not needed?

Any part sourcing information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance, Dan


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

First, send some of that "cold" air down here. Records being set every day.:yesnod:

The breather you are speaking of that connects to the valve cover would not have gas vapor coming out of it. Again, sounds like oil smoke, ie blow-by, which is typically caused by worn rings. You might want to do a compression test at some point to see what you come up with.

The distributor - I'd do a complete freshen up if it were me, if nothing more than eliminate a problem and put all new in for dependability.

Summit sells the PerTronix coil here http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pnx-d3000/overview/ It says you need to state what color wires your coil has. Don't be too concerned that it does not say GTO, you just want "Pontiac" in general. It says Chevy, Cadillac, etc., but check "application" and you will narrow it down to Pontiac. - $43.97

Here is the PerTronix dist. cap. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pnx-d4050/overview/make/pontiac It has the much better "brass" terminal. Never liked aluminum unless that's all I could get. - $24.97

Mallory Rotor http://www.summitracing.com/parts/maa-362/overview/make/pontiac - $16.97

Moroso 4-pin Electronic Modulator http://www.summitracing.com/parts/m...ily/pontiac-v8/engine-size/6-6l-400/year/1974 - $62.97 

Now here is a complete "kit" at Summit http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66945bkc/applications/make/pontiac - $86.97

You should also be able to get all these parts at your local auto store. Most offer high performance brands if you ask for them, they can look them up.

I see a condenser in your photo, but most HEI units don't seem to show these, so this is something you need to inquire about. It too should be replaced at this time.

So, I would do a good tune-up for starters, then a carb rebuild which should have the parts to be compatible with ethanol gas (get a brass float as they are not part of the kit), and look into a timing chain and gear replacement - you can easily check the slop by watching your distrib. rotor as you turn your engine by hand, one direction and then the next, noting how much your balancer moves before the rotor moves. You can use your timing marks to do this. You should get very little rotation from your balancer before your rotor moves. If you get a lot of movement (because you are taking up the slack in the timing chain before it pulls on the cam gear - which turn your distrib/rotor), then you are due a set of gears and new chain.

You can also do a compression test. Remove all spark plugs (check their condition - if wet, then you have been flooding the engine and this will cause it to not start and you definitely have a carb issue) to do this so the engine spins quickly. Make sure coil wire is disconnected. Screw the compression tester into each spark plug hole and spin over a few seconds to get a reading from each cylinder and write it down. They should be fairly uniform. The numbers will let you know if your rings are worn.

These are just some basic checks you can do to give you more info on your engine. Freshening up the distributor would be No1 (along with wires & plugs if it were me) to see if that gets your engine going. No2 for me would be the timing chain/gears check because if there is a lot of slop in the chain/gears, it will affect your timing and this can cause a starting problem. No3 would be the carb, which is probably just as important as the distributor in importance.
No4 would be a compression test.

I might also get my alternator tested just to make sure it was putting out enough voltage/amps because you still may have an electrical problem, but can't sort it out if you can't get the car running to do so - just sayin'. :thumbsup:

Now if you do a tune-up and the engine fires up, then I would still consider rebuilding the carb at some point and do the timing chain/gears check and then the compression.:yesnod:


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

PontiacJim said:


> First, send some of that "cold" air down here. Records being set every day.:yesnod:
> 
> The breather you are speaking of that connects to the valve cover would not have gas vapor coming out of it. Again, sounds like oil smoke, ie blow-by, which is typically caused by worn rings. You might want to do a compression test at some point to see what you come up with.
> 
> ...


Again great information Jim!! Thanks a ton!

I searched a long time tonight after posting and found more and more parts as I learned what the search for... Summit Racing is "down the street" from me (20 miles or so from work) so I'll go there and get all I need. I was concerned about getting the right parts because of the resister wire I'm supposed to have... and not knowing what is actually inside the distributor.

Yea, I figured this means a full tune-up and check-up which I was hoping to do at a later date. Like the brake job I did started with just the rear shoes and ended up a full brake job including all new stainless lines.

I'll definitely look at the timing chain play and compression later.

One last question: there is a long red cylinder (four or five prongs) resister near the distributor. I remember back in the day those also caused issues. Should I worry about that at this time or add it to my list for doing at some point?

Thanks again!!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

"One last question: there is a long red cylinder (four or five prongs) resister near the distributor. I remember back in the day those also caused issues. Should I worry about that at this time or add it to my list for doing at some point?"

Dan, can't seem to recall seeing anything like that. A photo would help on that one.

"I was concerned about getting the right parts because of the resister wire I'm supposed to have... and not knowing what is actually inside the distributor."

That resistor wire from your original car has to be bypassed. You must have 12 volts to the coil/distributor while it is running. The original ignition set-up gives you 12 volts while cranking the engine and when you let the key snap back to the "run" position, the resistor wire then powers the coil/distributor at about 8-9 volts so you do not burn the points. You do not have points and the HEI requires 12 volts as the engine is running. So, you need to test the wire that goes to the coil to see if it is getting 12 volts while the car is running -the previous owner may have already converted this? If not, running an HEI on 8-9 volts is not a good thing. That link I gave you on the HEI conversion explains how to convert your wires over. 

I also found this forum that has a diagram of both points and the HEI which may help. When I switched to an electronic conversion in my points distributor, I simply added a toggle switch that was tied into a 12 volt source and connected it to my coil. I left the original resistor wire in place, just added the extra 12 volt wire on top of it and would flip the toggle switch to provide 12 volts. The car ran on the 8 volts, but you could notice a difference once I flipped the toggle and got the needed 12 volts to the distributor. Hey, it worked, but perhaps not as neat/professional as others might do.:thumbsup:


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

PontiacJim said:


> "One last question: there is a long red cylinder (four or five prongs) resister near the distributor. I remember back in the day those also caused issues. Should I worry about that at this time or add it to my list for doing at some point?"
> 
> Dan, can't seem to recall seeing anything like that. A photo would help on that one.
> 
> ...


Here is the part I'm talking about.



I'm going to assume the previous owner, or two owners ago, did the conversion. There is a red wire coming from inside the cabin to the distributor so I assume that is my 12 volts. I will verify that next.

In the mean time, eu-REAK-A!!! You are DA MAN Jim!

I bought the kit from Summit this afternoon and installed everything but the springs on the counter weights - I'll explain in a moment. After installing the bits I turned the key without touching the gas and she fired up in a NY second!!!

Back to the springs... the kit came with three sets. One each for Drag Racing, Circle Racing and Street. See the chart below.



I ended up testing all four spring sets, my old one included, with a digital spring scale. My old set and the two beefier sets all tested about the same at .7 to .8 and the weakest springs tested about .5.





This are augured out so they were hitting the under side of the rotor.



I think now I need to check the timing and that 12v source... 

Thanks again!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

OK, looks like previous owner pulled the voltage regulator and installed a "jumper". I suspect you also have a later model 1 wire alternator with built-in voltage regulator.

Looking good, and glad the engine fired right up -good sign. The advance weights can sometimes "wake-up" an engine. Try the medium set as I recall another poster used them and liked the results. You may have to play around with the timing, just make sure you don't get the dreaded "pinging" sound which means your timing is too far advanced. Pinging WILL destroy your engine.


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

PontiacJim said:


> OK, looks like previous owner pulled the voltage regulator and installed a "jumper". I suspect you also have a later model 1 wire alternator with built-in voltage regulator.
> 
> Looking good, and glad the engine fired right up -good sign. The advance weights can sometimes "wake-up" an engine. Try the medium set as I recall another poster used them and liked the results. You may have to play around with the timing, just make sure you don't get the dreaded "pinging" sound which means your timing is too far advanced. Pinging WILL destroy your engine.


I ended up picking the old springs because I knew what I had thinking I could always change them later because it's pretty easy. I also didn't know how it woulds affect things and didn't want to introduce another parameter until I know she ran. I'll give the medium a try after I get things tied down.

I do remember "pinging" or as Dad called it "cackling" and it's ill effects. I'll have to study the manual and break out the old Penske timing light. I think it's almost as old as I am. 

It's nice to have her under her own power and starting better than she ever has - since I bought her. Thanks again!

Dan


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

One more Q:

Have a plug and wire recommendation for this newer higher powered ignition system?

Thx, Dan


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

dan woodland said:


> One more Q:
> 
> Have a plug and wire recommendation for this newer higher powered ignition system?
> 
> Thx, Dan


I bought a set of the Taylor 8.2mm wires for my 455. I have run Taylor's before with no problems. The Taylor's claim less resistance than some others. Many like the yellow Accel. The Taylors come in different colors and different ends, straight, 45, 90 degree bends, and some mixed. You can also buy a set you assemble yourself to get the length you need if you are using a "trick" wire loom set-up. Select the ones for your HEI.

Plugs, no specific recommendation, AC or Champion for me. I don't think split-fire or platinum tips are worth the extra costs.


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

PontiacJim said:


> I bought a set of the Taylor 8.2mm wires for my 455. I have run Taylor's before with no problems. The Taylor's claim less resistance than some others. Many like the yellow Accel. The Taylors come in different colors and different ends, straight, 45, 90 degree bends, and some mixed. You can also buy a set you assemble yourself to get the length you need if you are using a "trick" wire loom set-up. Select the ones for your HEI.
> 
> Plugs, no specific recommendation, AC or Champion for me. I don't think split-fire or platinum tips are worth the extra costs.


Thanks Jim.

I definitely need plugs, wires and a timing adjustment... she runs but not very well. The exhaust smells really strong, you can't stay in the open garage until she warms up.


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Oops, I forgot the mention, I have 14+ volts at the distributor.


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Parts ordered (plugs and wires), timing set to 9 BTDC (it was at 15 BTDC) with vacuum advance blocked off it didn't take much distributor movement to change the timing. She starts and idles great and doesn't seem to hesitate when I push on the throttle in park but... now she has no go. Put her in gear and she bogs down and I hear a ticking sound. Press on the gas pedal and I get almost nothing, like I'm driving in peanut butter. 

Is this the reason it was timed at 15 degrees? I suppose now 
I have to make sure the distributor is installed correctly and #1 is at top the top of the exhaust stroke etc...

Would a vacuum leak cause this?

I'll replace the fuel filter tomorrow in case it's clogged.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

If the timing chain/gears are worn/loose, this greatly affects the timing at the crank and the overall performance. Adjusting the timing can "compensate" for the worn condition. Learned this one first hand. Again, if your engine still has the original chain/gears, you may be at the life expectancy of the factory pieces with the mileage you stated on the odometer.:yesnod:


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

I was afraid of that... I thought I'd have more time before cracking her power plant open. 

I set the timing at about 15 and it still runs like crap in gear.

Thanks for your help Jim.

Dan



PontiacJim said:


> If the timing chain/gears are worn/loose, this greatly affects the timing at the crank and the overall performance. Adjusting the timing can "compensate" for the worn condition. Learned this one first hand. Again, if your engine still has the original chain/gears, you may be at the life expectancy of the factory pieces with the mileage you stated on the odometer.:yesnod:


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Dan,

Keep in mind that the stock balancer can slip around on the rubber dampener ring as it gets old, so your balancer could also be the culprit here and not the timing chain/gears. Another very common situation with a Pontiac having age/miles on it. Putting it back to 9 degrees, does it run good again?

Testing for the slack in the timing chain is a quick test. Checking the balancer is a little more work as you have to get your No1 piston to Top Dead Center and observe the balancer mark on the timing cover scale. Many will suggest simply buying a new balancer just to CYA. If the outer ring should ever sling off, it can do much damage. You can get a good aftermarket balancer for about $88 and they are fairly easy to replace as they are bolted on rather than pressed on like a Chevy. I bought the $124 balancer for my 455 with the extra timing marks, but the $88 one will work the same and appears stock. If/when you are ready to rebuild your engine, you want to replace it anyway, so it will not be a waste of your dollars. Butler Performance - Pontiac Harmonic Balancers You will need a big socket to get the bolt off the crank and you will need a torque wrench (or rent one) that will be able to torque the bolt to 160 ft-lbs. Here is a little "How To" Harmonic Damper Replacement - High Performance Pontiac Magazine

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet. Could still be another issue like the carb or even crappy gas. Do one adjustment at a time to try and isolate the cause. Back to 9 degrees and see if it improves.:thumbsup:


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

PontiacJim said:


> Dan,
> 
> Keep in mind that the stock balancer can slip around on the rubber dampener ring as it gets old, so your balancer could also be the culprit here and not the timing chain/gears. Another very common situation with a Pontiac having age/miles on it. Putting it back to 9 degrees, does it run good again?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the information... I'm not tossing the baby just yet but I have never been able to do a project which didn't require more work almost immediately or the dreaded "while your in there" project creep. For example, I'd have the cooling system drained and fan removed to do a timing chain so I may as well install new hoses, correct water neck, clamps etc... The Balancer would fall under that same vane.

I find it hard to believe the balancer, carb and or balancer went bad simultaneously, was affected by the "tune -up" or was exposed by the tune-up.

Dan


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## dan woodland (Jul 24, 2013)

Turns out it was a combination of plugs, wires and carb... Found some "fabric" shards in the carb jets - one was completely plugged! Have no idea how long it was floating around in there - basically she was starving when i hit the gas. Some of the plug wires were bleeding so much power (from the new higher energy ignition) so I replaced those and the plugs - one of the plugs had a short in it! I have no idea how this things was running!!

Thanks for all the help guys.

I'll post details in my restoration thread.


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