# Ride height question



## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

I've recently redone quite a bit of the suspension and brakes on my 67. I replaced the springs in front and rear with factory spec springs and went with the Bilstein shocks on all 4. The new brakes have the stock spindle height also. The ride height in back is about the same but the front is a lot higher. I'd like to get the car riding level again so I'm thinking about a set of lowering springs for the front.

I see they sell 1" and 2" so what do I need? I don't want the car dragging the ground I just want it level again. I gave it a couple of months thinking the springs would "settle" a bit but there is no noticable difference. I measured the car compared to stock ride height and the back is maybe .3" too high and the front is over 1" too high. I'm using 235/60/15 size tires.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

If you look at sales literature and old photos, these cars originally sat a bit lower in back than in front. They did not have the 'hot rod rake' we all seem to be nuts about. I have run lowered front ends on these cars, and it gets old pretty quick (replacing headers, poor alignment, rough ride, etc.). If I were you, I'd install Air Lift bags inside the rear springs. Cheap, effective, and helps traction. Plumb the air lines separately, so you can tailor the car for the track. Under $100. Second choice would be to install the 1 or 2" plastic spacer rings under the rear coil springs. $20, and about 30 minutes worth of work.


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

I totally agree with the proper ride height and how it's supposed to be but I like the level in the back how it is and it's very close to stock. I just want the front lower. I thought I wanted the correct look when I put the springs on but I've seen a couple of GTOs around and my personal opinion is a level frt/rear looks best. I've read that as long as you don't go under 2" from stock you won't see any problems. Is this not right?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I went 2" lower and had the problems I told you about. Was able to line it up, but trashed my header collectors and it rode very stiff. Handled extremely well, though! Your car, do what you will. Me, I wouldn't.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Drive it a little bit Witt and see if it settles. Honestly I don't see a problem with lowering it 1".....2 might be a little iffy if have headers though. I agree I like them level or slightly raked towards the front but not "slammed". Geeteeohguy is absolutely correct though that they did sit higher in the front new but again they do settle and the spring rates even on GTO's is a little light and stiffer springs and lowering do help handling but make the ride a little harsher.


Of course a 67 isn't a 69 so Geeteeohguy has more experience with that car than I do. I can say my car is probably 1 1/2 lower than stock with a 235-70-15 tire and my Hooker headers took a little abuse until I moved a couple of tubes but I digress.....

On a side note a neighbor of mine showed me a cheap and easy way to lower the front on a coil spring GM vehicle. Place two by fours under your front control arms leaving a gap the same amount you want to lower the vehicle. Take an Oxy-Acetylene torch to your springs approximately in the middle until the vehicle starts to lower....apply same to other side until the vehicle is sitting firmly on the two by fours. Let cool while you drink a couple of beers and then test drive immediately after. He did this to his S-10 pickup and I honestly don't know how he kept any food down while driving it because it bounced and bucked so badly. It was a good case of "I told you so". :lol:

*Disclaimer: I don't recommend this at all. *


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

:agree with GeeTee, drag bags are a lot of bang for the buck and will allow you to get it leveled out without tearing back into the front end. I used the wagon springs in the front of mine because i was putting a 455 in it and after 3 seasons they have settled in around 1/2" lower than when installed and with the drag bags i have a slight rake and less body roll in cornering and still clear speed bumps easily. I think part of the beauty of these cars is their ride quality, not many of us can say we drove one showroom fresh but a buttoned up resto with no squeaks or rattles drives nicer than most of the new cars/trucks i have owned in the past 15 years, and it has 450 HP to boot.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

And I'll pat Instg8ter on the back, too, saying he is 100%correct. With a freshly done stock-ish suspension, steering, and seats, these cars drive with minimal road noise, a lot of leg room, and a true Cadillac quality ride, and superior to any front drive Caddy in ride quality. I drive all kinds of new cars, and they can't compare. I drive mine, and have driven mine on long trips cross-country, and these cars have what it takes to eat up the road in comfort and style. Dumped down into the dirt? Not so much. Get some Air Lift bags for the rear. You will not be sorry. Funny how a stock '60's GTO has a much lower roofline than a new Corolla (or any other new wedge/sneaker- shaped car)!!!


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

You guys are very convincing but I think I want to try the 1" inch drop springs. I was quickly talked out of taking the cheap route and cutting/heating my stock springs. A little stiffer would be nice but I don't want my fillings rattling out. I appreciate the ride in the older cars but I actually prefer the ride in my modern sport sedan. If I can get the ride in my GTO a little closer to that and get the front down a little for the look I want then I'll go for it.

If I'm still not happy after this then I'll try the drag bags and add a 1/2" or so. The handling benifit alone would make it worth it I'm sure.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

pay close attention to Tire width and wheel offsets when you lower it, over 245 fronts will rub on the forward fender edge at full turn and rears have a huge 2" wheel house lip that may rub when shocks get compressed without the drag bags if you go over 265's. I believe we have determined that 4.5-5" backset on the rims is optimal.


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

Thanks for the info and I'll keep you guys posted on the outcome.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Also (and this goes for just about every topic, not just stance), be VERY careful about what you read out on the inter-tubes, even here. There's a lot of misinformation, people who are just repeating what their favorite idol said but have no experience themselves, people who have messed up their car and are now looking to get others to do the same so they can quit feeling stupid, downright dishonesty, simple misunderstandings, etc.
Before following anyone's recommendation, take some time to think about it from all angles and see if it makes sense and seems logical. Ask yourself "what's the worst thing that could go wrong?" and decide if you'd be willing to deal with that.

We're all human, and when we get something in our heads that we think we want to do it's very easy to find "someone out there who says they did the same thing" and use that for validation. Just be careful.

Bear


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## Icefan71 (Apr 7, 2011)

Good reading. I'd like my front end a little lower, too. But after reading this, I probably need to put some miles on it and see if it settle out.


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## scrapmaster (Oct 27, 2008)

I am an old school look guy. I rarely lower front suspension. Can't even get a cup of coffee from McDonalds without scraping headers or something. I just go with station wagon springs in the rear. And leave the fronts stock. The lowering springs look good. But the cons are driveways, speed bumps, and stiff as hell ride. But to each their own.


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## leeklm (Mar 11, 2012)

Here is how it goes... hey look, I just lowered my suspesion, look at the cool stance is! Yeah, that is cool, let's go for a ride! Driving now... wow, feel how much faster we can take this clover leaf! Yeah, feels nice and firm like a corvette. This was an awesome upgrade!

Fast forward 6 months.... hey, let's go out cruising and get a bite to eat. Scrape, bang, smash. What was was that? Oh nothing, it bottoms out at times when the driveway dip is too steep. Ah, ok. Driving along after hitting mcdonalds.... oops, sorry about spilling my mtn dew, that last pothole was a doozy. A few miles later.... man this is a rough road, when is the county going to pave this thing? I know what you mean, I have to drive this road all the time. Hey, can you hand me a few advil out of the center console, I have a pounding headache. Sure here you go. By the way, what are you doing next wknd? Not much why? Can you help me put my stock springs back in this car. Sure. Yeah, these stiff sob's were fun at first, but this crap is getting old. BTDT. 

Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Also remember every adult passenger adds close to 200 lbs to your sprung weight so 4 passengers and a 70lb yellow lab going up for ice cream and your hauling nearly a half ton...:cheers <--Boston Coolers. Like most answers to threads, it all depends on how you want to use your car and is totally up to you we're just here to help you make an informed decision and tell you first hand experiences.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I put the stock springs back in my old '66 GTO after about 6 months of rattling my fillings and flattening my exhaust. Driving the car again at the correct ride height was a blessing.


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

Pretty compelling testimony here. I think I at least want to give it a try but here's my question. Will a 1" drop spring lower the vehicle 1"? I'm not sure if that means the spring is 1" shorter or if it will drop the car an inch.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

good reading:

http://www.gtoforum.com/f50/2-drop-spindle-camber-issue-40025/


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Usually it will lower it much more than what is removed. Also, the spring rate gets changed when this is done, making for the buckboard ride. Just hoping you can learn from our mistakes to save you from going thru the pain. Front spring R&R on these cars is the second toughest thing to do, and is a real PITA.


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## 66MichiganTempestC (Feb 1, 2012)

Hi,


About the camber issue. I've talked to a guy with a Chevelle, that he's using taller upper and lower ball joints in order to correct the too short stock spindles with the benefit of solving the stock camber problem and with the taller lowers getting the front down about .5" .
What's the deal with those ball joints? Are there really any benefits? Will they be the solution when you have camber issues while using drop spindles/shorter coils? And are the stock spindles really too short? (Can't imagine that, 'cause they were manufactured and used for years...)

Sorry, I'm a greenhorn in suspension questions and don't intend to hijack the thread, but I'm also interested in the ride height question in order to decide what front springs will go in my '66.


Raphael


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

GeeTee what's the hardest job? Is it the heater core becuase I just got done with that recently and that was pretty crazy. I've done the springs before and it is time consuming but pretty straight forward. I think the job will be a lot easier and faster since I've done it once already.

Before I replaced the worn original front springs, the ride height was level with the rear after I put new OEM springs in the rear. When I put my new brake kit on I went ahead and changed the front springs with OEM also. That's when the ride height went up more than an inch over factory spec with my tires that I believe are shorter than spec (235/60/15). I just want to get the ride back to what it looked like before the OEM spring change. It's been several months and they really haven't settled much. I'm hoping the 1" drop springs will get it done. 

I won't mind a firmer ride and I'm actually going to put the drag bags in also. This is to hopefully fix a new issue I just discovered. I just got the transmission swap done and the new drive shaft seems to be rubbing when the car has a lot of weight in it and goes over a dip or bump. I figure I can firm things up in the back and maybe raise it a 1/2 or so and solve that issue. Hopefully you guys will chime in on that too!


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Drive shaft sounds like a pinion angle problem, what trans did you swap? Hardest job is bolting on headers...:rofl:

Raphael, the problem is once you start fooling with front end and suspension geometry you are opening up a can of worms. Changing one thing effects everything else and so on and so forth. Everyone wants their car to handle like a vette but the A-body was not designed as such. In my opinion the best bet is stock suspension, good gas shocks, stiffer bushings, add or upgrade anti sway bars, drag bags in back springs, aftermarket adjustable upper and lower rear control arms, high ratio steering box.


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

I had the 200-4r put in. They had to install a new drive shaft also.


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## randy1966GTO (Feb 10, 2013)

WhittP said:


> GeeTee what's the hardest job? Is it the heater core becuase I just got done with that recently and that was pretty crazy. I've done the springs before and it is time consuming but pretty straight forward. I think the job will be a lot easier and faster since I've done it once already.
> 
> Before I replaced the worn original front springs, the ride height was level with the rear after I put new OEM springs in the rear. When I put my new brake kit on I went ahead and changed the front springs with OEM also. That's when the ride height went up more than an inch over factory spec with my tires that I believe are shorter than spec (235/60/15). I just want to get the ride back to what it looked like before the OEM spring change. It's been several months and they really haven't settled much. I'm hoping the 1" drop springs will get it done.
> 
> *I won't mind a firmer ride and I'm actually going to put the drag bags in also.* This is to hopefully fix a new issue I just discovered. I just got the transmission swap done and the new drive shaft seems to be rubbing when the car has a lot of weight in it and goes over a dip or bump. I figure I can firm things up in the back and maybe raise it a 1/2 or so and solve that issue. Hopefully you guys will chime in on that too!


You will really like the air bags, I plumbed mine seperately as suggested and can set the rear height perfectly for ride quality and cornering. My front is a little low (455 may be a little heavier?) but I am going to leave it that way, I haven't scraped the headers or bottomed out on any speed bumps yet. 

I am about to start the install on my 4 wheel power disc conversion and chose the standard height spindles so that I can hopefully end up with the same stance.

Good Luck,

Randy


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The _first_ hardest job is the _REAR MAIN SEAL_!!!!


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

Got the new 1 inch drop springs installed with no issues. Took a test drive and the ride and handling are great. I noticed a new noise though and it looks like the right front tire rubs a little were the inner and outer fender attach together at the highst point. I also noticed the right front has a visible positive camber now. The left does also but not as obvious. I also measured a couple of places and the highet part of the wheel well is a 1/2 inch lower on the right. I knew I'd need an alignment after the change but I'm surprised the sides are different. Your thoughts please.


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

Here are some pics. The ride height is exactly how I wanted it I just have to get that camber fixed. I'm assuming shims have to be removed for this?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Correct --- removed or installed, depending on which direction the tops of the tires need to move (in or out).

Bear


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

I have an appointment for an alignment this afternoon so hopefully they can get it in specification. If not, I've read I can go to extra tall upper ball joints to get it right. Any thoughts on why the right is worse than the left? The car pulls slightly to the right now too. Did I mess something up underthere? Those springs gave a pretty good pop when the compression tool runs out of threads but I didn't figure it damaged anything.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Any time you change the geometry of the front end, you change the alignment angles. The alignment guy can hopefully adjust your car to specs, or close. Often times, modified cars will not come into specification. To decrease positive camber, shims need to be added to pull the upper control arm inward, and the top of the tire inward. Easily done on an alignment rack, if your geometry isn't totally out in left field.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

WhittP said:


> I have an appointment for an alignment this afternoon so hopefully they can get it in specification. If not, I've read I can go to extra tall upper ball joints to get it right. Any thoughts on why the right is worse than the left? The car pulls slightly to the right now too. Did I mess something up underthere? Those springs gave a pretty good pop when the compression tool runs out of threads but I didn't figure it damaged anything.


Are the springs indexed correctly where the tail of the spring is sitting in the pocket?


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

When I installed the new springs I got down under the car and positioned them while my teenager worked the jack for me. I made sure the end of the spring was in the pocket up top. The new springs were different on the bottom though. They were flat.

I took the car in for an alignment and the tech spent a long time on it. I looked on the forums and tried to get it as close as you guys recommended. Let me know what you think.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

He set the car within factory specs. Pretty near the limit on the negative caster. What you need to realize is that factory specs for these cars was with bias ply tires, back in the day. Not modern radial tires. I set my GTO's up with more positive caster than specifiedfor better steering stability and wheel return. These cars were spec'd at negative caster so they would be easy to park and maneuver with manual steering. I set mine at +.5- +1.0. As your car has been set up, though, it will be fine. How does it drive?


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## WhittP (Jun 19, 2013)

The thing I stressed most to him was that I wanted the camber as close to zero or slightly negative as possible. I was hoping that would solve my tire rub problem (which it seems to have done). He had trouble keeping those in spec and trying to adjust the caster and by that point he was about 1.5 hours into it so I didn't press it. I asked to have the toe a little positive also and that was easy.

I really like the ride height of the new springs. I also like the new angle of visibility from inside the car. The steering and handling seem better but there's one thing that I think needs improved. I have not taken it on the freeway yet but, it seems like it's a little more vague on center than it was. It's not bad by any means but it feels like it could be dialed in a little more. Is the toe out too far or is it the negative caster?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

It's the negative caster. Your toe is fine. If the caster was brought closer to zero it would be a bit more 'on center' going down the road. Too much caster in these cars and the ride gets harsh from feedback thru the wheel. If your car was to be adjusted so that your caster was a bit more positive, it could very well affect the wheel hitting the fender. I'd run it as is for awhile.


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