# Surgery: An EngineOuttaMe



## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Now the fun begins. Damn spring caps breaking more and more, gonna remove them all. Alternator out for rebuild its original to car and never opened, 40 years with no problems. Motor mounts were shot really bad some Einstein ran the cross over fuel line UNDER the motor instead of along side the xmember and the motor was partially resting on it flattening some spots, it was starved for fuel but it ran great. Parts out for powder coating. 

Will open valley pan up after I sand blast the motor, hoping for no hidden surprises. NO MORE FRAM either, Radiator is original out for pressure testing and inspection. Engine bay should be pretty close to concourse when finished. NAPA, Ames and inline tube love me. Will post up more pics as it progresses.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

just bookmarked Inline Tube link from other thread, damn, wish i would have known they were right down the street (20 miles) from me, would have saved a ton on shipping charges....they need a new name, like EVERYTHING RESTO that shows up in searches, i would buy stock, can't help but like silver cars Judge, both look sharp bet you can't help but smile when you walk into your garage with them side by side


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)




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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Instg8ter said:


> just bookmarked Inline Tube link from other thread, damn, wish i would have known they were right down the street (20 miles) from me, would have saved a ton on shipping charges....they need a new name, like EVERYTHING RESTO that shows up in searches, i would buy stock, can't help but like silver cars Judge, both look sharp bet you can't help but smile when you walk into your garage with them side by side


I smile  and plenty of rubberneckes as they pass by with the door up. But my wallet........ it  frowns. 

I have one to drive while one is down.


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Judge, Lookin' good!....at least you still HAVE a wallet. Mine wore out from taking it out and emptying it so often!!!! "Good for The economy":cheers:lol:


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Eric Animal said:


> Judge, Lookin' good!....at least you still HAVE a wallet. Mine wore out from taking it out and emptying it so often!!!! "Good for The economy":cheers:lol:


It needs stimulated:willy:.... LOL. Putting money in a car the FEDS want to outlaw........ PRICELESS.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

What wallet??....LOL, just transfer from check to pay-pal account


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Great thread! Keep it going! Eric, you made me spit out my oatmeal...hilarious!


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

I installed Budzter spring spacers in the rear last year and it gave it more lift which is what I wanted (1-1/2) The 3" pypes needed more clearance and I wanted the '70's look without air shocks.. The nose sits a little low. I want to lift the front end a tad would new springs do this? I don't want a baja look.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

GTO JUDGE said:


> Now the fun begins. Damn spring caps breaking more and more, gonna remove them all.


Good plan. They're just oil shields. If you've got good valve stem seals you don't need them at all - plus deep-sixing them removes some mass from the valve train which is always a good thing.

Bear


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

GTO JUDGE said:


> I installed Budzter spring spacers in the rear last year and it gave it more lift which is what I wanted (1-1/2) The 3" pypes needed more clearance and I wanted the '70's look without air shocks.. The nose sits a little low. I want to lift the front end a tad would new springs do this? I don't want a baja look.


Depending on how well your wallet is recovering  and how much you care about "original", the hot ticket to get adjustable ride height is to convert to a coil-over system. You can go with new/heavier springs, but be aware they'll have a negative effect on ride quaility and also weight transfer at launch - if you care about that.

Also, probably not something you want to hear but unless you're making north of 550 hp, that 3" exhaust is going to do bad things to your low end torque. Oughta sound good though... :cool

Bear


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

BearGFR said:


> Depending on how well your wallet is recovering  and how much you care about "original", the hot ticket to get adjustable ride height is to convert to a coil-over system. You can go with new/heavier springs, but be aware they'll have a negative effect on ride quaility and also weight transfer at launch - if you care about that.
> 
> Also, probably not something you want to hear but unless you're making north of 550 hp, that 3" exhaust is going to do bad things to your low end torque. Oughta sound good though... :cool
> 
> Bear


Exhaust was on the car when I got it, 3" not my choice but I am focused on getting this thing back to its glory and de-bastardizing what someone did to it, looks like a chop shop did some of the work on it. It sounds nasty though, I get people at traffic lights loving it. The springs may be original I may replace with a good set of new ones and see if it doesn't yield me an inch or so in ride height.


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

No question, new springs will raise her....


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

I got Hotchkis front springs with a 1" drop that were in a chevelle. They are lower but still have a great non-mushy feel. If you want it up a little get AC car springs, or Chevelle with BBC, those should raise it just a little as the Pontiac is still a heavy motor.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Well got the motor sandblasted just a few spots to touch up on before paint prep. Removed the valley pan and was pleasantly surprised at how clean it was not a spot of sludge. Damn sand gets everywhere despite a good prep got to clean up the valve area good. She gets painted with Eastwood ceramic paint the week of Dec 14th will show progression.

Ton of new parts coming OUCH my wallet hurts. Found a nice set of grilles ta-boot. 
Radiator pressure tested was told the insides are remarkably clean, repainted and ready to install.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

One more step completed. Finished restoring a set of grilles in Judge colors and emblem today. Tearing part of motor down this weekend to see further how it looks in there and clean up, Huge Ames order arrived today... along with frigid cold and first dusting of snow.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

Nice clean looking motor, congrats!
What are doing to the engine?


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

jetstang said:


> Nice clean looking motor, congrats!
> What are doing to the engine?


Got a little media in the intake valve and timing chain area despite a good sealing up, should have left more parts on the motor then removed after blasting (hindsight). So tearing apart and cleaning and flushing with lots of kerosene into the oil pan. Repeating the process dozens of times despite seeing no sand, wanna make sure its all out. Timing chain areas is done will clean the cover good for paint since its off. Flushing intake area out. Flushed out the distributor area too, so everything is looking good. Today those oil caps come off some broken and pieces wedged in the valve springs. Anyone having them I'd keep an eye on them, not replacing them don't need this worry again. 40 years of stress and wear has taken its toll on them. Will clean and flush again. Took the valley pan and intake to be cooked and jet washed. I blasted them and they turned out nice but since they are off will have them cleaned good for paint. 

Glad I did cause they noticed the 2 holes on the rear of the carb mount were stripped despite the screws backing out with tension. Gonna tap them. Don't need a vacuum leak once it goes back.

This is all too new to me but I will never media blast a motor again, learning curves here but there was 3 layers of paint on the engine I found, and applying ceramic paint, this I was told was the best prep. I have help from some friends that know what they are doing engine wise and painting.
The upside about this is as I tear apart parts of the motor I can see and inspect anything that may abby-normal but everything looks great. The motor is in great shape. Everything is nice and clean, judging by the appearance the motor doesn't appear to have that many miles on it I was told about 60,000 when I bought it but it couldn't be confirmed. I can't identify the cam but am told its a beffy one. Valves and that were done with Perfect circle parts, so for the car being raced someone knew what they were doing internally. 
Originally I was just gonna have the motor rebuilt but as good as it ran I figured for 4,000 I will wait, glad I did...... This thing is now a cruiser and show car track days are over. 
More pics to follow...


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

was wondering about blasting engine, i am still having "sand through the hourglass" moments every time i jack my car up from a different angle after blasting the undercarriage and frame. little mounds of sand all over the floor underneath, and thats after air hosing and power washing several times cant imagine getting it near an engine. good to hear it is in fresh shape, should be good for another 40K, and you can spend your change elsewhere on the car. got lucky with my block and pistons and just had a cross hatch put on before rebuild saved me a ton in machining, was in GTO clubs PRES. show car before he decided to go back to #'s match, babied and low miles. Looking good Judge your avatar always catches my eye, like the silver on the classics.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

If you haven't already, make sure you pull all the oil passage plugs (two in the front of the block, three in the back (a screw in plug is underneath the plug on the distributor side) and wash out/blow out/brush out.

If you have (or can borrow) a dial indicator with a magnetic base and a degree wheel, you can "measure" the cam with it, the timing chain, and two lifters installed to find out what you've got. If it's a Pontiac cam, it'll have a single character code stamped on the end that can be looked up.

If you want to be really meticulous on your build you'll need that equipement to degree the cam anyway.

Bear


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

I made sure all points of entry were closed off and still some got in. In retrospect I should have left most of the parts on then had a couple cooked. My buddy that's gonna paint this wanted all paint removed to bare. Blasting it would get the paint off and any baked on paint I will apply stripper to it and sand. The oil caps were coming off anyway so the valves were removed, the springs etc and cleaned with kero lithium greased the tops. The lifters are in good shape as well as the cam. The valve area is thoroughly cleaned, next is to flush the intake ports again, and again and again, along with the distributor area then the valley then clean the cam slowly turning the motor and flushing. Once that is all done will flush again. drain the oil pan and remove and clean. That should take care of it all, once the car is running will run put 50 miles or so on it then drain the oil again. 
My buddy has built bokoo Pontiac and Chevy motors he tells me he'd be surprised if there was 30K miles on it, the Spark plugs after 1500 miles are clean. 

Notice the pics of the oil hats 2 were removed some time ago many are damaged. This metal fatigue was a nightmare waiting to happen.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

BearGFR said:


> *If you haven't already, make sure you pull all the oil passage plugs (two in the front of the block, three in the back (a screw in plug is underneath the plug on the distributor side) and wash out/blow out/brush out.
> *
> If you have (or can borrow) a dial indicator with a magnetic base and a degree wheel, you can "measure" the cam with it, the timing chain, and two lifters installed to find out what you've got. If it's a Pontiac cam, it'll have a single character code stamped on the end that can be looked up.
> 
> ...



Will do that as well.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Power washed the engine bay, it removed a lot of paint some stripper and a chinese wheel next up.


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

you are asking for trouble if you dont pull the rest of it apart to get the sand out. one grain of sand is all it takes to ruin a bearing. the kero will run through but the sand will not wash out past the rings. driving 50 miles wont matter. what ever is going to happen will be in the first minute or 2 it is running.


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## DukeB-120th (Oct 19, 2009)

This sounds like a sticky situation bro, I would take the whole thing apart like Shane suggested.

Good luck and keep us posted!


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Yep, lots of tear down, all looking good.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

I didn't see this thread until just now or I would've screamed loud enough for you to hear me from MN NOT to sand blast an assembled engine....
Shane is 100% correct, you need to disassemble that engine to the last bolt and start from there. 50 seconds is all it will take for a grain of media to take out a bearing. The learning curve just got a lot longer and more expensive...it's mostly labor from this point but it would be a shame to ruin what you have to save time now. You could get lucky and never have a problem but you got to ask yourself one thing.......do you feel lucky ?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

66tempestGT said:


> you are asking for trouble if you dont pull the rest of it apart to get the sand out. one grain of sand is all it takes to ruin a bearing. the kero will run through but the sand will not wash out past the rings. driving 50 miles wont matter. what ever is going to happen will be in the first minute or 2 it is running.


:agree And, from the _*I feel your pain*_ department...

After getting my 461 home from breaking it in on the dyno, I was re-installing the intake manifold in preparation for installing the motor into the car when I felt one of the front bolt holes go a little soft. "No problem" I says to myself says I, "I'll just carefully mask off all the ports and seal everything up, then drill out the hole and put in a heli-coil." My first clue was when the tap to cut the new threads for the heli-coil went in WAY deep. That's when I discovered that the bolt hole I was working on wasn't a blind hole - it was a through hole - into the oil drain-back passages in the heads. I stuck a magnet down into the hole and pulled out a ton of metal chips from my just completed drilling and tapping operations.  I had to tear my freshly built, broken in, and dyno'ed 461 _all the way down_ to clean it up due to that 10-minute job... :shutme

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I too have been asleep at the wheel. Just noticed this stuff TODAY! Along with Mitch screaming from the Frozen North, you would have heard me screaming from the Soggy West, as well. Do what Mitch and Bear advise, and disassemble and clean EVERYTHING. Sand is essentially silica (glass) and one grain can and will destroy bearings, journals, and clearances. This is one of those moments in life we all refer to as "education". Sometimes education is cheap, sometimes it is expensive, as in Bear's case. But the thihg about it is, it's valuable as can be...you'll never do THAT again!! And remember, the only way to avoid mistakes is to never DO anything!! Have fun, looks like you're making great progress.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Thanks for the advice guys I appreciate it. This has been a real learning curve. I can build cabinets custom doors etc in my sleep, and have quite a cabinet shop but mechanical stuff, this is foreign to me but I am learning. I have full confidence in my buddy who knows motors and his help has made it possible for me to sleep at night. I was a basket case. 

Engine torn down and back together. TONS of cleaning this learning curve set me back 2 weeks but if there is an upside to this.... I got a chance to look in the motor and see what I got. Its immaculate. Paint now scheduled for week of Jan 3. 

I had heard how awesome this Eastwood paint is,...damn its great stuff expensive as all hell but the results are well worth it. My first try at this and it don't look too bad. Underhood paint on firewall and inner fenders, Extreme Chassis black on the engine bay, Rust Encapsulator on the radiator support and on the underside of car on the frame. Lots of new parts going in.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)




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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Good deal on the tear down and clean. Two weeks is nothing when you have 3 more months to wait till you drive it again. Hearing you have knowledgable help is good and the piece of mind will be worth the extra time....:cheers

I've been using Eastwood products for a number of years and have pics in my sticky of a frame I painted with the 2k Gray paint. It went on very nice and is hard as a nail. Every inch of the frame was blasted and then sprayed with Rust Converter before paint. Every nook and cranny of the GTO body, that hasn't been replaced, has been sprayed with the converter as well to stop the rust.


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Freshly painted, many an hour degreasing, and pre-prepping.

2 coats PPG gray primer, 2 coats Eastwood Pontiac Metallic Blue. Powder coated and clear coated parts going on shortly. Some parts that are now powder coated had as many as 6 different colors on them. The power steering pump is half the size that it was. :willy:

































More pics to follow.....


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Many people say these are just dumb old cars, but that is a piece of automotive art !! 
It's also going to STINK and smoke like crazy when it warms up for the first time. Have it in an open area with plenty of air circulation....


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

Too Many Projects said:


> Many people say these are just dumb old cars, but that is a piece of automotive art !!
> It's also going to STINK and smoke like crazy when it warms up for the first time. Have it in an open area with plenty of air circulation....


Oh yea I'm expecting lots of smoke and smell especially with the complete kerosene bath the insides got, ought to clean out the exhausts too when it comes out. I put 3 coats of manifold paint on that alone its gonna stink, put a coat of manifold paint on the head exhaust ports before primer. My buddy sprayed this, its flawless and a true work of art. Amazing how he brought back to life 40 year old parts by clearing, and powder coating they look showroom. This thing when completely assembled may go on the coffee table instead of in a car..... but the wife may object. Can't wait to get that intake on top.


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