# Rukee: Timing for Dummies Please



## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

I know this has been posted a million times but I can't find it via search.

Rukee...would you please provide a link or restate how to time a Pontiac?

I know how to set the initial timing, plug the vacuum line and set at 12 BTDC.

What I don't know how to do is set total timing, I've read Jim Hand's articles and I've searched this forum and PY and I guess I'm the only dummy out here that doesn't get it.

Thanks in Advance
Rick


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Every motor is different and every motor wants it's own timing. Some need more, some need less. 
I'm sure some will argue with me on my tactics, but I don't worry about base timing, only total timing. leave the hoses on and tach up the motor to about 3-3,500 rpm and set the timing to no more then 36*. Then road test to be sure it doesn't ping. Then shut off and restart hot to be sure it starts good without hitting hard, or cranking and stopping, cranking and stopping with each compression stroke. If it pings or starts hard back the timing off a degree or two till it just stops, then go 1 or 2 degrees more to give you a safe zone. You should be good. :cheers


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Thanks, that sounds much easier than some of the posts I was feebly attempting to decipher.... :cheers

This is related to my idle issues, I think the culprit might be a loose distributor, I can turn it by hand and my thinking is maybe it has turned over time due to vibration.

Big Thanks
Rick


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

12 degrees initial sounds like a lot of timing. Is that the spec for the late engine you're running? The Rukee Method is an excellent method, and will work fine. You need an adjustable timing light to read the advance. Dial it to zero at 3000 rpm, and you should read 30-36 dgrees. A lot of Pontiacs don't enven like as much as 36....some do batter at 32 or so. After you get it where you want it, lock it down and then adjust your idle speed and carb mixture and you're set. If you have points ignition, you MUST set your points dwell BEFORE you adjust the timing!!!! You may not drive a Blue Charcoal '65, but your heart's in the right place......


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Jeff

I've got an ACCEL HEI distributor and I don't believe my light is adjustable, guess I'll be spending some money but it will probably come in handy later.

Big Thanks
Rick


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

I'm not well versed on the timng issue either, but, wouldn't the springs in the dist. play a role too? Heavier springs for total timing to be all in later, lighter springs to have it all in earlier? Or, do they have a different effect?


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

You're right, Troy, the springs can make a big difference but since he has an aftermarket HEI, the springs will most likely be all in by 2,500 rpm. Even a stock dizzy would be all in by the 3,600 threshold Rukee spec'd as a starting point to check total advance. With an adjustable timing light that can be tracked as well by watching the advance and noticing the rpm where the advance curve stops moving.
You can use a standard light too if you install a timing tape on the balancer. I used to recurve distributors that way back in the "really old days"...


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The spring weight (strength) has a direct effect on how fast the total timing comes in. That's where theold-school distributor curve machines come in. For us, it's a matter of trial and error. And yes, an adjustable light is mandatory!!!!


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

Mitch and Jeff, thanks for the info......


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

:agree 6*BTDC not 12. at idle w/dwell set and advance hose off and plugged....Rukee is right in his method...as the idle isn't so important to performance.....IF your distributor is loose I would say it definately has moved over time!


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Eric Animal said:


> :agree 6*BTDC not 12. at idle w/dwell set and advance hose off and plugged....Rukee is right in his method...as the idle isn't so important to performance.....IF your distributor is loose I would say it definately has moved over time!


:agree and with the rotation of the shaft pulling it around it goes retard and will cause the low idle speed.


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Okay, I've never used an advance timing light before so let me see if I understand:

Warm motor, steady 3500 RPM, vacuum advance connected.

I turn the dial to 36 and adjust the distributor until the harmonic balancer groove lines up with zero on the index.

Yes?

Also, which light is better: Dial or Digital

Here are the two I'm considering:

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_...=Tools&keyword=craftsman+advance+timing+light

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_...=Tools&keyword=craftsman+advance+timing+light

Thanks
Grasshopper :lol:


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Vacuum advance DISCONNECTED and plugged. I would start at idle and watch the advance curve. You will see if it is working at all and when it stops advancing, indicating it's all in. Then turn the dial to 32 and bring the mark back to zero with the distributor. It may only need to go to ~2500~ If it runs good and doesn't ping at 32 total, you can go in and advance the initial by 2 degrees at idle and not bring it back up to high rpm.
For me, the dial would be easier to use and you don't need most of those buttons on the digital anyway. Save $30 bucks and have a beer.....:cheers


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I would set the total with the vacuum advance hooked up. That's how the car is going to be driven, with everything hooked up. That's how I've done it in the past. Depending on the dizzy, probably little if any difference with it hooked up or not at 3500RPM, though....I too like the old style dial lights. And yeah, like analog guages, too.....


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Koppster said:


> Okay, I've never used an advance timing light before so let me see if I understand:
> 
> Warm motor, steady 3500 RPM, vacuum advance connected.
> 
> ...


yes, then test drive and verify no pinging.


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Okay...I'm doing something wrong (who woulda guessed, ha)

Got the Craftsman dial light (got $10 off for Craftsman Club BTW, that was nice)

Marked the index line on the HB with white paint, warmed up the motor to about 170*

Loosened the distributor clamp a little more than it already was, no matter how loose it only turns about 1 inch in either direction, very strange (Accel HEI)

Started the motor and let it warm, noticed that when I turned the distributor clockwise 1 inch (as far as it would go) idle picked back up to normal, left it there and pressed on

Held motor steady at 3500 with light set at 34 could not see the mark, turned it all the way up to 50 and finally saw the mark about 2 inches below the lowest mark on the indexer (about 7 o'clock on the HB)

Got me baffled, car is running strong and smooth, I had the light hooked up to the right front cylinder (#1), vacuum advance was plugged in and car was running at 3500

BTW, I did a vacuum test and the carb almost sucked my arm in, started to die so I'm ass-u-me'ing no vacuum leak

Distributor 180* out (if so, why does it run so good)?

Why doesn't distributor turn more than 1 inch?

What did I do wrong?

Thanks
Rick


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

If it were 180 out, it wouldn't run. It may be installed a tooth off. Doesn't sound like it, though. Sounds like you, not the car, is out of whack!  I'm confused about the 7 oclock thing. Are you crawling under the car??? You should be looking from 10 o clock to about 2 o clock, from above. All you need to do is mark the reference line on the crank pulley,(the one that is 0 degrees), and note where TDC (0) is on the timing cover, set the timing light to 0, rev to 2500-3500, and then adjust the light so that the reference line(tdc) on the crank pulley lines up with the TDC mark on the timing chain cover. Then look at the dial, and see what the number is. The 1 inch movement of the dizzy is weird....and is another reason I don't like aftermarket parts. They almost never fit and work properly without fabrication and modification, in my past experience. Good luck.


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Jeff

I'm reverse oriented for the 7 o'clock, 7 o'clock standing in front of the car looking at the motor

My index is on the timing cover passenger side, I'm leaning over the passenger fender looking down


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Pull the vacuum hose, plug it and check the mechanical advance only. 
I still suggest starting at idle and noting the initial advance there. Bring it up slowly until it stops advancing and note the amount of advance and the degrees. This will give you a good base line to see what is going on inside the distributor. It could be a mechanical malfunction in the advancing weights, such as sticking...


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Okay, will do and I'm going to fiddle with that dizzy, I can't understand why it won't turn more, hard stops in both directions


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

if you turned it clockwise you advanced it. if you cant see it until well past 50 you need to turn it back the other way. it doesnt matter how it idles until after you get the timing right. if you get the timing where it needs to be and it idles too slow then you can adjust the idle screw. one inch of movement should be plenty.


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Shane...that's worthy of investigation....thanks! Not sure if I turned it counterclockwise and looked for the mark...


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

it should come back


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Okay, found one problem, the vacuum advance spout/nipple is hitting the intake in both directions limiting travel


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Problem solved, I was on the wrong #1, should have been on the left front (driver's side)! What a dork!! :willy:

Thanks all for the rescue!

Rick


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Koppster said:


> Problem solved, I was on the wrong #1, should have been on the left front (driver's side)! What a dork!! :willy:
> 
> Thanks all for the rescue!
> 
> Rick


lol ...I won't tell anyone if you don't!


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

You got a deal Rukee and OBTW, I owe you a cold one for all the help! :cheers


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

just an FYI. #1 is always on the bank of cylinders that is the most foreward. if you look closely one side is always slightly ahead of the other. any V engine by any maker. glad you have it going your way. :cheers


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## likethat (Oct 5, 2007)

Don't feel bad, when I was in my teens I had only worked on Gm cars. I get a 74 Grabber when I was 17 and tried to give it a tune up. Done a bunch by then for friends and family all were some kinda GM. Plus I just started night JVS auto shop. So I rip off the cap with the wires on it, transfer all the same length wires to the same spots, and numbered them 1 thru 8. and placed them back on just like any Gm car and it wouldn't start. I worked on the car for 2 days pulling my hair out.
So I ask a good friend of mine, if his dad could come down and see what was wrong. He was into old Fords and had a bunch of them. Plus a bunch of awards from his car club for trouble shooting. He gets to my house and after about 30 seconds gets this big crap eating grin and looked up at me and said this is a Ford not some ( I will change what he said to crappy GM) and told me that 1234 is driver side and 5678 was passengers side. When counting the cylinders. I felt like a big dumb butt.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

Koppster said:


> Problem solved, I was on the wrong #1, should have been on the left front (driver's side)! What a dork!! :willy:
> 
> Thanks all for the rescue!
> 
> Rick


There's only ONE number 1. You were working on a number 2....:lol:

So.........what did you find, do, end up with.....don't hold us in suspense.....:willy:


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## Koppster (Jul 27, 2008)

Mitch, went back out this AM with my bud to help me.

Warmed it up, disconnected the vacuum and set the initial to somewhere between 6 - 8. Had to retard it a bit from yesterday's ear setting and had to raise the idle a hair but it ran good.

Next, we connected the vacuum back up and my bud held it steady at 3500. Best I could get it to was 40 BTDC. Car idled but you could hear a little knock.

Just for grins and giggles, I unplugged the vacuum advance and even at 3500 it moved significantly after the line was disonnected, probably 10 - 15 degrees, that made my head hurt, I was of the belief the advance was finished at 3500.

In light of all that, I decided to play it safe and we went back and set the initial to 6 - 8* with vacuum disconneted at idling about 800-900 RPM. I confirmed the advance light reading with my trusty 30-year old Sun light.


Tweaked the idle speed after reinstalling vacuum and air cleaner. Took it for a ride and it runs strong, no pings, no knocks. Still has a real soft very occassional buck when loping around at low speeds, I think it's the cam.

Anyway, going to call Accel this week, I've read some posts about their distributors having mechanical advance adjustments in the distributor, want to hear what they say and see if they have a book on the thing.

Rickster


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

i think you are making it a little more complicated than it is. now that you have the initial timing set you should be able to use the adjustible light to determine the total advance by just reving it up till it doesnt advance any more. dont even need to look at the tach.


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## Too Many Projects (Nov 15, 2008)

The buck at low speed could be a plug or wire misfiring too. 
All mechanical advances are adjustable on a distributor machine by changing the spring rate and weight profiles. The vacuum advance is probably what you've heard about being adjustable. 
The guy that recently curved my Camaro dizzy after I installed a Pertronix set my mechanical advance for 32° at 10° initial without the vacuum. He said a total of 50° at full advance with the vacuum is normal. The vacuum advance I bought is limited to 12°, so I won't have more than 44° total. An adjustable vacuum can bet set for more or less, depending on how much mechanical there is and what you want for a total advance. Remember, the vacuum has no effect under acceleration and very little under load, such as pulling a grade. It only plays a part under ideal, low load cruising.


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