# Cost to have 1969 GTO 400 engine rebuilt?



## Toby Garrett (Aug 1, 2019)

A shop that restores classic cars, says it will cost me $7,000 to rebuild my 1969 GTO 400 engine.
These days...I don't know if that's in line. What is a fair price without upgrades?


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## BLK69JUDGE (Jun 10, 2010)

Welcome ...
this will be a hot topic,,,,
so so many variables and we need more information ,,,
is the motor the original ?
are they pulling and putting the engine back in ...
sounds like 7000 is the rebuild cost with it sitting on a pallet
does it include rebuiding carb and distributor ? etc water pump fuel pump
whats wrong with the engine now???
how or whats the bore like ??
weathered engine ?
ruff runner ??
WS or YS ?? 48 or 62 heads ???
whos doing the rebuild ...?? what parts will they use ??? 
have they done alot of pontiac engines ???
so so many questions

good start of a thread tho

Scott
we require vehicle pictures for any more action then we can proceed ...
just kidding ,,, but pictures really help too


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

Is that their out the door price , cam broke in and ready to drive to Florida for the winter price?

added: I said that assuming they are replacing the cam. Get an itemized list for what their rebuild is. Seen rebuild as rings, gaskets and bearings.

Added Added: What is your expectations? Are you wanting 100K miles out of it. Are you looking to keep everything original only replacing excessive wear items. How original is original would be an endless conversation.

Thinking about it 7,000 was the price of my wife's pathfinder engine out the door.(to its next calamity)


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## pkandersen (Feb 12, 2021)

I did mine and parts including machine work was around $1500. I did a few upgrades including cam, roller rockers etc. nothing crazy. You can buy a few tools and do it yourself. Really a lot of fun, directions on the internet. If you really don't have time then it will cost to have a shop do it. If cost is a factor there are lots of shade tree mechanics that will do it for less but they are not a shop.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

pkandersen said:


> I did mine and parts including machine work was around $1500. I did a few upgrades including cam, roller rockers etc. nothing crazy. You can buy a few tools and do it yourself. Really a lot of fun, directions on the internet. If you really don't have time then it will cost to have a shop do it. If cost is a factor there are lots of shade tree mechanics that will do it for less but they are not a shop.


Assume that is a misprint.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

It depends on the level of the rebuild and what replacement parts are needed. It also depends on how much you can do of the assembly.

Low side might be $3,000 - $4,000 with you doing some assembly. $5,000 - $6,000 could be a good range to consider. Then it goes up depending on what you might upgrade to.

You can go cheap, but you also want to go dependable. I assume you only want to build this re-build it once? I had my iron 7K3 heads rebuilt with all new, to include stainless steel valves. That put my at about $1,200 to include the upgraded ARP rocker studs. So you should want to do it right the first time so it will last and it can help if you ever sell the car - keep a diary/list/receipts on all that you do to the engine.

Disassemble,Clean, Magnaflux Heads....................$40
Surface Heads.....................................................$100
16 Bronze Valve Guides.........................................$52
Install & Bore Valve Guides..................................$200
8 Ferrea RAIV Stainless Steel Intake Valves.............$88
8 Ferrea RAIV Stainless Steel Exhaust Valves...........$88
16 Valve Springs....................................................$92
16 Valve Spring Retainers......................................$48
3 Angle Valve Job,Set Valve Spring,Install Valves and
Install Viton Valve Seals.......................................$300
7/16" ARP Big Block Rocker Studs.........................$118
Heater Hose Nipple/Passenger Side........................$25
Freeze Plugs (6).....................................................$16
OWNER Supplied Heads...........................................$0
OWNER Port/Polish/Open Valve Throats and Chamber
Work......................................................................$0
TOTAL less heads & any head work.........................$1,167


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## ColoradoMike (Mar 29, 2020)

I gave an engine builder a bare 69 400 block and 48 heads and he put in all new internals including some roller stuff for about $6500 10 years ago so I don't think $7K for a full rebuild doesn't sound bad. But as others indicate it will differ based on what you're having done.


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

7k sounds good for a medium performance build.


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## CoveKid19 (Nov 18, 2021)

Okay, I'll say it. 7K is insane for a stock rebuild with no upgraded parts, even if they are pulling and reinstalling the engine. Forget about someone who restores classic cars and find a reputable machine shop that won't bend you over. Many classic restoration shops know how much our cars are worth and want to take a piece of the "proverbial pie" from us.


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## Cory21 (Sep 10, 2020)

I had a 400 built early this year by Len Williams Machine in Bristow, OK and am really pleased with the results. The engine was under $6K including shipping to Illinois. In the end I thought this was the best value to quality trade-off I could find. He only builds Pontiac 400 and 455's, no chevy's, etc. His 'stock' build is pretty healthy and my 67 absolutely rips now on 92 octane. Len said high 300's in HP and it seems like it. Part of his 400 recipe is on his website but he is great to discuss details and specifics. Len was easy to work with but lead time was rather long. He found a 67 block for me that is close to date correct - which was cool. I got his name from this forum (you can search others posts), exchanged with a few folks that had an engine built by him and they were generally pleased with the output. I was looking at several other places ahead of finding him, many at significantly more $$$. Good luck with the build. I know what you're going through - its a lot to consider - I drove myself nuts last year looking into so many options. Link below in case you want to add his name to the mix of options.


Len Williams Auto Machine


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

My 400 with 7k original miles and no issues, was rebuilt "mild" in 2014, without starter, alternator, water pump, dizzy... for $7000. It was balanced, converted to a roller cam and lifters, and used better pistons, pushrods, and valves.

In my opinion, this is a very buyer beware market, because a lot is misrepresented. People ask me every day; where can I buy the cheapest gasoline? My response is always; why do you want cheap gasoline? On that front, I see $7000 being a realistic cost for and engine that youd want. There are still a few places on earth where you do get what you pay for, and this is one of them. 

An engine in 1969 had a perceived life of 100k miles... new engines are rated at over 200k miles. That's because they balance them, use better parts and practices. Maybe you dont need to get 200k out of it, but if youre going to drive it like its a GTO, then build it like it's one. If youre going to drive it like it's a Bonneville, then build it like one. FYI... Oil had zinc in it and there was no ethanol in gas, in 69, so yeah I'd build it to deal with those issues.


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## Scott06 (May 6, 2020)

This prices are consistent with what you see listed at Butler, Spotts etc. I think spotts was listing on his website $6 to rebuild your core and a year backlog .
For these guys who really specialize in pontiacs and know their stuff and if you want to lean on it probably a reasonable rate .
You may find a local machinist to do a stock rebuild cheaper and if that suits your needs fine, but u find a lot of folks don’t know what they are doing. I had a stock valve job done on my 65 389 in 1990. Just swapped cams and went to checking seal to retainer clearance . Found the Teflon valve seals he installed were kissing the retainers on the stock 067 cam (.406 lift) . When he cut down the guide tops for the seals the exhaust guides were left .090” higher than intake. I had to go back to oring seals on the exhaust and use short comp cams retainers on intakes to make it work… and this cam should have worked with stock valves and springs


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## Droach6498 (Nov 1, 2020)

Im having my 400 block bored , decked rebuilt by machinist for about $2000 no parts he also sonic tested it and has worked on the heads. The 84cc heads from KRE were $2400, rest of parts to rebuild around $4000. Not including carbureator, exhaust, starter, installation and all kinds of misc parts, plugs, wires, distr etc.. when you get it is it ready to run? also ask how long I took this motor to him in July I wont get it until March April, parts can be scarce and hes super busy. Which Im not complaining Ive done a ton of work on the car. Just replaced the body mounts. Highly recommend fairly ez job.


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## bluemist slate (Aug 30, 2021)

$7k! I sure am glad I build all my vintage engines myself only pay for machine work and parts!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

bluemist slate said:


> $7k! I sure am glad I build all my vintage engines myself only pay for machine work and parts!


Well don't keep us all in suspense. List for us what you replace in one of your Pontiac rebuilds, the costs of your selected parts, the labor for machine shop services, and if you assemble the engine yourself, give us an estimate of what a shop would charge as many do not rebuild their own engines(to include removal and re-installation of the engine in the car).

Curious to see what your figure comes up to as measured against a 7K build.


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## 4856ronaldp (Nov 9, 2020)

Hey guys.....looking for a repidable pontiac engine builder in CT.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

4856ronaldp said:


> Hey guys.....looking for a repidable pontiac engine builder in CT.


Nitemare Performance. The shop owner, Darrin, is really great to work with. He only does Pontiac engines. I'm running a set of his ported heads on my 461. Even though it's not listed on his website, I know he does stock rebuilds. He had one in his shop ready to ship to the customer when I picked up my heads last spring.

Someone above mentioned Len Williams. My 461 bottom end is one of his 455 short blocks. All brand new internals. Lead time was long but the well worth the wait. 

My build was way north of the $7000 mentioned above but I needed a new block and heads and mine was a performance build to boot. Heck, the short block and heads alone were more than that before ordering everything else needed to put it all back together. I think $7000 is probably fair for a stock rebuild if the shop is doing all the work.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Hmmmmm. Still waiting for that reply and price list from *bluemist slate*. Hopefully he comes back at some point with the info. I hate it when someone makes a claim that counters the main question and then does not follow through with a solid reply with example. Statements like that then get the original poster thinking that maybe he* is *getting screwed. I think the key point is that a shop is doing the rebuild and not himself. For those of us who can remove/install and assemble our engines, we can indeed save a few dollars, but if we screw up, its on us and not the shop the assembled our engine - then the savings may be out weighed by the costs of a 2nd rebuild or worse.


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## bluemist slate (Aug 30, 2021)

PontiacJim said:


> Hmmmmm. Still waiting for that reply and price list from *bluemist slate*. Hopefully he comes back at some point with the info. I hate it when someone makes a claim that counters the main question and then does not follow through with a solid reply with example. Statements like that then get the original poster thinking that maybe he* is *getting screwed. I think the key point is that a shop is doing the rebuild and not himself. For those of us who can remove/install and assemble our engines, we can indeed save a few dollars, but if we screw up, its on us and not the shop the assembled our engine - then the savings may be out weighed by the costs of a 2nd rebuild or worse.


Sorry, hard to type when fixing cars all day. I didn't disagree with anybody. Just said, glad I do the labor myself. I would not replace a lot of the parts you did unless they needed or I was building a race motor. The only race motor I've done probably ran around $5k about 10 years ago. It was a Chevy 383 stroker with roller cam and rockers with a set of AFR heads for a buddy and unfortunly he pasted before the car was finished. 
Machine work, cleaned magnafluxed, heads surfaced, valve guides knurled unless they need to be replaced and valve job. valve springs replacement depends on their condition and the cam I'm installing. Blocks going to be bored most likely, rods resized and new freeze plugs and cam bearing. I learned this past summer that machine work price can be drastically different from town to town. Seeing you live in Gastonia you may pay more than I would. The reason I say this is my nephew price head work in Charlotte this past summer and it was twice what my machine shop down here in Wilmington, NC charged. It was a $400 difference. I"m going to replace the water pump, fuel pump, if mechanical, plugs and most likely wires. I forgot all new bearings, cam, lifters, pistons and rings. Yes, being a mechanic, I do most all of my own.
Now, I never said that you or anyone else was doing anything wrong. I basically said, I'm glad I don't have to pay for pulling the engine, disassembly, reassembly or install. 
Sorry, if I upset.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

bluemist slate said:


> Sorry, hard to type when fixing cars all day. I didn't disagree with anybody. Just said, glad I do the labor myself. I would not replace a lot of the parts you did unless they needed or I was building a race motor. The only race motor I've done probably ran around $5k about 10 years ago. It was a Chevy 383 stroker with roller cam and rockers with a set of AFR heads for a buddy and unfortunly he pasted before the car was finished.
> Machine work, cleaned magnafluxed, heads surfaced, valve guides knurled unless they need to be replaced and valve job. valve springs replacement depends on their condition and the cam I'm installing. Blocks going to be bored most likely, rods resized and new freeze plugs and cam bearing. I learned this past summer that machine work price can be drastically different from town to town. Seeing you live in Gastonia you may pay more than I would. The reason I say this is my nephew price head work in Charlotte this past summer and it was twice what my machine shop down here in Wilmington, NC charged. It was a $400 difference. I"m going to replace the water pump, fuel pump, if mechanical, plugs and most likely wires. I forgot all new bearings, cam, lifters, pistons and rings. Yes, being a mechanic, I do most all of my own.
> Now, I never said that you or anyone else was doing anything wrong. I basically said, I'm glad I don't have to pay for pulling the engine, disassembly, reassembly or install.
> Sorry, if I upset.



Oh no, not upset or taken personal. A Chevy ain't a Pontiac. Seems many when they get "sticker shock" have dealt with small block Chevy or Ford engines. You can build one of those for peanuts compared to a Pontiac, and get all the good stuff to boot right down to a new block or crate engine.

What I wanted to see was what you might call inexpensive and how you did it. I could do it and have. But, you are also using many of the over 50 year old parts and you are skimping or bypassing certain machine shop items. I have honed the ridges of the cylinder bores with a drill and 3-stone hone, use a ring land scraper and re-ring the factory cast pistons, inserted new bearings to replace the "what looks OK to me" bearings without checking the crank for anything, install new rod bearings in the cast rods using the same rod bolts the rods came with, used the heads as is and installing new valve seals because none of the valves looked bad, and re-gasketed the entire engine. That's how you do things when the funds were not there and you didn't know any different and you called it done, and drove the car. But, the car was just a car and not worth much of anything other than a fast ride and burning tires as it was already beat up, interior worn out, and rusty from the salt they put on the roads in winter to melt the snow/ice.

Now, things are different because of the value these cars bring. I would not do what I used to do in the past when rebuilding an engine even if I was simply going for a bone stock type rebuild. The value of the car would still dictate that I would go a little extra on the re-build to ensure I had a more "bullet-proof" build because the value of the car is somewhat carried by the engine - however it is built or modified. And, I only want to rebuild the engine once and want it to hold together if I drive it like it was meant to be driven - smoking tires, not puttering along like a little old lady on a Sunday drive to church.

Personally, I have never in my life spent the money I have spent on my 455, but I am also building it with more high-performance parts than stock. I really wish at times it was a Nova because I probably could have a nice re-built engine with supercharger sticking out the hood for what I am seeing invested in my 455 and that's without aluminum heads and roller cam.


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## bluemist slate (Aug 30, 2021)

I think you spent a lot of money you didn't need to unless really planning to run ths crap out of it.
As my original statement said, " I sure am glad I build all my vintage engines myself only pay for machine work and parts!". 
'


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

The parts alone are a killer, especially right now. The issue I ran into when I built mine is I started with a plan and a budget. Then made decisions that changed those original plans. Then when I started ordering internals (rockers, timing set, oil pump, etc) the if I'm paying X for this part, I can upgrade it for just a little more. That "just a little more" forced my build way over my original budget. Being able to pull and install the engine myself was a blessing and a curse. The blessing is the saved cash. The curse (and blessing?) is I found other things that a shop my not have touched to keep the job on budget. I was also willing and able to do the final assembly and break in myself. As PJ said, if this had gone wrong the damage was all on me. To complicate, this was my first build ever.

Lot's of rambling from me there. You need to approach these things with a realistic idea of your abilities. Not everyone is capable of building an engine from the ground up, or willing to take on such a huge project. I know I'm not which is why I started mine with an assembled short block and had the head work done by a professional. It seems like the OP knows what his limit is (either time limitations, ability, age, whatever) and was asking is the price he was quoted was fair. I like whoever told him to get a full list of everything that was included for the price. Since it is a restoration shop, it's possible that the price includes detailing the engine bay. If not, I would ask how much extra that would be. It is way easier when the engine is out of the car than when it is in. 

Also, location, as someone said, has a huge impact. A couple of you guys are from NC. I'm in MA and I am sure I can't touch the prices you guys are able to get locally.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

bluemist slate said:


> I think you spent a lot of money you didn't need to unless really planning to run ths crap out of it.
> As my original statement said, " I sure am glad I build all my vintage engines myself only pay for machine work and parts!".
> '


A very disappointing reply when you had the podium to present your case, but instead ducks behind the "I stand behind my original statement." Comparing a Chevy small block you built in the 1990's is a far cry from a Pontiac engine build, so I take it you have never rebuilt a Pontiac engine, just other vintage engines and the 383 stroker didn't work out so well so you purchased a real muscle car, a GTO.

It really torques me off when someone posts a statement or comment that causes the original poster to be uncertain that he/she might be getting hosed and the person posting the reply feels that "they can do it cheaper, better, or faster" but can't back it up with fact, figures, or example. Kinda like stopping for the little old lady who has a flat tire and tells her "I could easily change that tire" and then gets in his car and drives off. If you are embarrassed that you can't present a coherent list of parts, and your assembly procedures & costs, then just say you are embarrassed because you have never rebuilt a Pontiac engine rather than driving off.


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## bluemist slate (Aug 30, 2021)

So, how many engines have you built? Since you seem to know how many I’ve built.


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## bluemist slate (Aug 30, 2021)

Another something for you, I built my first Pontiac engine before you moved to NC. Just down the street in Charlotte. Also, my first engine in 87. I also bought my GTO on November 2, 1985. Never mentioned the 90’s. Also, the only prices I compared was machine shop cost between Charlotte and Wilmington NC.


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## RMTZ67 (Mar 12, 2011)

Just looked up my machine work bill w/budget pistons and rods was $2370.00. Still had to buy cam,rockers,lifter,pushrods,oil pump,timing chain,gasket set, and I am sure I am missing something. You all can add to my list if I missed something. And I did the labor. I would guess $5500-$6500 would be close for someone else to do a budget build and up from there.


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## bluemist slate (Aug 30, 2021)

Looks like someone got embarrassed.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

bluemist slate said:


> Looks like someone got embarrassed.


No, just not going to waste anymore of my time with a clown. You want to play politician and try and throw the conversation back on me - you should apply for a job at CNN or NPR. And yet no numbers from you on pricing for parts, machining, or labor being added to this post. So good try, but you can bait someone else, not biting. I'll stick to Fox.


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## bluemist slate (Aug 30, 2021)

Odd, I said my labor was free and you turned it into politics. Lol


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## bluemist slate (Aug 30, 2021)

Jim has thrown lots of shade on me and then go silent. 🤔


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Guys, I don't think this is helping the OP. The original question was cost to have a 400 rebuilt. 

Some great insight here and some not so great. Everyone's experiences and skill level can sway what a project costs by a lot. If the OP wasn't scared off by all this. I, for one, would love to help him if he was able to get an itemized list of what the rebuild entails and what his location is. Those two things alone will dictate if the price he received is good or not. My guess is the price is probably fair.


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