# Confused on this 1965 VIN



## luriesd (Jul 10, 2012)

Hi all,

Looking at purchasing a 1965 convertible with this VIN: 237675B105421 



https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/pontiac/gto/2644420.html



I thought "true" GTOs always had a 242 VIN, but the seller is a professional and insists this is a genuine GTO. I welcome any education!

Thanks,

Steve


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## lust4speed (Jul 5, 2019)

The 242 started in 1966 when the GTO became a separate model. In 1964 and 1965 GTO was an option. There are a few hints on the cowl tag but PHS is the only way to positively identify.


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## 1971LemansWisc (Apr 18, 2021)

PHS Automotive Services, Inc. 



1965 GTO Example of an actual information packet


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## Scott06 (May 6, 2020)

As others have said 64-65 GTO was an option on the LeMans so will have the correct 23767 …

what would concern me is the rivets on it in the photos are not the correct rosett rivets gm used they are standard hardware store rivets… so the vin tag has been off. Not uncommon in a resto to have to take it off to sandblast the metal underneath…

ideally if thats the case maybe have rest pics of the tag before it was removed… anyone smart would have done this or gotten the proper rosette rivets…Doesn’t necessarily mean its a fake, would just criss check vs cowl tag and concern would be if car was rebodied. Not trying to scare you off, just something that needs looking into.

years ago was looking at a 65 hard top vin tag was inverted so it read from sitting inside car vs out.

at this point would bring it up to seller ask them the history and to provide the phs info…

others on here will likely have more info on how to vet it or if there are 3 rd party inspectors who can vet it.


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## Scott06 (May 6, 2020)

Here is a sale for rosette rivets so you can see what they look like GM 1 Pair NOS Dash Rosette VIN Rivets SS PRIORITY MAIL 2 to 3 Day Service | eBay

not sure the build date on the car but the tach is the early 65 rally tach that has the green band vs green turning to red at 5200 rpm band of later tach… this early 65 tach is not reproduced… 

my 65 convert also has this early tach, car has an 01D (4 th wk of jan) build date …


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## O52 (Jan 27, 2019)

This one is 11D, 4th week of November. 

Car looks in need of restoration.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Scott06 said:


> so the vin tag has been off. Not uncommon in a resto to have to take it off to sandblast the metal underneath…


Aint no way that car was restored, IMO


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

O52 said:


> Car looks in need of restoration.


Agreed.

It's a very nice car, but that's DEFINITELY dealership/ flipper pricing. 

@luriesd I hate to scare you off a GTO, but IMO, you can get a car that was fully restored, recently, from a private seller, for that money.

The car you posted is gonna need a TON of cleanup, which is gonna be a lot more time and money... and you're going to uncover a lot of "secrets" during the first month of ownership.


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## luriesd (Jul 10, 2012)

Really appreciate all the comments. Especially the "warnings." I may pass and keep looking!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

luriesd said:


> Really appreciate all the comments. Especially the "warnings." I may pass and keep looking!


Shopping for a GTO can be a super stressful time... the anxiety and impatience could be overwhelming, but don't rush this. Tell us what you're looking for, and we'll find you a good one.

IMO, that car looks like someone dumped a small amount of time and money into the interior and body, to make it look like a $55,000 GTO, but the undercarriage dont lie! It looks more like a $25,000 GTO, to me. Maybe $35,000 if it's numbers matching, with provenance, and no bondo.


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## luriesd (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks! I suppose I should have included that!

I am looking for a 1964, 65, or 69 convertible. I live in southern CA, but that only matters to say the weather is good so not much increased issue with rust.

I am NOT interested in a major project (did that when I was young), but also don't need a perfectly restored concourse car. I will drive this on weekends, in the small town parade, etc. "Driver" is the perfect description. I have no other preferences except the rag top, so that should help with shopping, I hope. Budget under 50K would keep my marriage intact.

Thanks all,

Steve


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

O52 said:


> This one is 11D, 4th week of November.
> 
> Car looks in need of restoration.


My unrestored '65 is in about the same shape but with better chrome due to dry CA climate. This one has pitting everywhere. This is a repainted used car, and was originally black/black. IMO, about a 35k car in today's market if rust free. One thing about these 'non restored' '65's---the seats are installed with the pleats pointing the right direction!!
You do NOT have to order PHS documents to verify if the car is a real GTO IF you have the Protect-O-Plate booklet. I have mine, so didn't order PHS docs for years and years. When I did finally order them, was surprised mine came with manual steering and no outside rear view mirror. This had been changed by the time I got the car in '82.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

luriesd said:


> I am NOT interested in a major project (did that when I was young), but also don't need a perfectly restored concourse car.


That describes the car you posted... unfortunately, it's not priced for what it is...

I believe that if you bought that car, youd have some serious headaches, early on in the game!

None of the T's are crossed and all of the i's are missing dots.


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## luriesd (Jul 10, 2012)

Great info thanks Army....gonna pass for sure on that one.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

armyadarkness said:


> That describes the car you posted... unfortunately, it's not priced for what it is...
> 
> I believe that if you bought that car, youd have some serious headaches, early on in the game!
> 
> None of the T's are crossed and all of the i's are missing dots.


I agree. To me, I would happily pay 20-25k for this car knowing I was going to do all the work myself. I would not restore it, but would get it into reliable driver condition. Likely brake system, suspension, and driveline repairs....but for me, no 'upgrades'. I like the era, and like being in it when I'm driving. This is a 35K car that someone not savvy will indeed pay 50k for. Then the real fun will start. In its favor, this car isn't shot 'resale red' and doesn't have a crappy PUI interior and a bunch of aftermarket cheese. It is a 58 year old musclecar with patina and wear but nothing to be ashamed of. First thing I would do would be to strip that godawful woodgrain contact paper off the console!!


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## luriesd (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks again y'all! I found this one: Seems more solid for less money. Thoughts?



https://classics.autotrader.com/classic-cars/1965/pontiac/gto/101726115



Steve


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

It would bear closer inspection. Looks clean. Trunk lid fit is kind of off. Has cheap PUI seat covers up front, but at least they are installed properly and not reversed.


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## Duff (Jan 12, 2020)

Take your time and STAY AWAY FROM DEALERS, honest cars owned by individuals do pop up from time to time, just be patient, your wallet will thank you!


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## luriesd (Jul 10, 2012)

Roger on both. I saw that trunk alignment issue as well. What source do you prefer for private sellers?


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## Scott06 (May 6, 2020)

Agreed on trunk lid, my 65 has the same issue and it was whacked in the back a couple times…. Tough to get to fit right… hard to tell from a handfull of pics . Have you searched the phs history? Id ditch the console in there and get a factory one .

need to see it in person for sure


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## Sick467 (Oct 29, 2019)

I won't get into the last car's value, but the second sentence sets off my "crappy seller" radar...










I'd say it's a flip job...an honest seller would know some history and not be SOOOO flippant about the facts.

You're looking for an old guy (older than me maybe, I'm 53) who has had their fun with the car, either building it or just owning it, and it's time to downsize for retirement. The honest seller knows the car's value and wants someone else to enjoy it and take care of it without selling too low or ripping someone else off. Personally, I have a small habit of buying underdogs and bringing them back...it's what I do (x 3 vehicles). I enjoy the build the most and the ownership thereafter second even though their not for sale! Some have had the luck of a well-cared for family-owned car or have restored/fixed-up a specimen that no longer fit's their lifestyle...those are the honest buys. You may not get a great deal (like the "little old lady" stories), but it won't be a bad deal, more times than not.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

luriesd said:


> Roger on both. I saw that trunk alignment issue as well. What source do you prefer for private sellers?


I always use Classic Autotrader, but man, there dont seem to be ANY GTO's from Private Sellers.

Don't get me wrong... You can buy a car from a dealership, but there are two key issues that must be revered.


They ALWAYS aver price stuff... by a LOT! They can finance, so they often tack $10,000 onto the value.
They're in business to make money, so they spend as little as possible on repairs. So... cars are made just "good enough" to sell, then after you have it for a week, you discover leaky gas lines, lights that don't work, charging issues, overheating, unidentified squeals/ squeaks/ grinds.
Most people buying these cars, think they're just buying a 55-year-old car that they can hop in and drive... after all, it did come from a dealership! But the reality is, most of them were either not running at all or running poorly, when the dealership got them, and then just flipped.

Private sellers tend to know the history of a car and you have a better chance of them being honest, once you know where they live... and spend time getting to know them.

55 year old, survivor/ unrestored GTO's look great, but they need new wheel bearings, ujoints, control arm bushings, wiring harnesses, weather stripping, ball joints, tie rods, tires, belts, hoses, heater cores...

So to price one at the current $55,000 market value, if those things havent been done yet, is kind of a joke. It would be like a dealership trying to charge $85,000 for a v6 Challenger, just because it looks exactly like a Hellcat.

IMO, the classic car market was erroneously inflated by the Hollywoods influence on the current generation... watching all of these stars drive around in old cars, without any regard the Hollywood magic that's going on behind camera. Every 17 year old girl in America, wants a 65 Mustang for her first car... she has no idea that it's not going to start in the winter, is going to slide off the road in the rain, and will get 9 miles to the gallon... Nevertheless, the demand will drive up the price.

Jeep Wranglers are a perfect example: they have the highest resale of nearly anything on the road, all because girls think they're going to drive on the beach, with all of their girlfriends, in their bikini's.

Then they go to the beach, it takes 4 adult men to get the top down, all of their shit gets stolen because theres no top, and on the way home, they freeze their asses off, while getting 10 MPG. Off to the used car lot, it goes, and there's another sucker waiting in line!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Sick467 said:


> You're looking for an old guy (older than me maybe, I'm 53) who has had their fun with the car, either building it or just owning it, and it's time to downsize for retirement.


Agree 100%.

If I had to sell my GTO today, I'd be VERY scrutinizing about who I sold it to... find "that guy"


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## luriesd (Jul 10, 2012)

This is awesome, thanks! Perhaps, right here on the forums, I found exactly that...have you guys seen this one? Seller and I have been communicating, and he truly is looking for a new "home" for this judge clone.

The classified is on these forums, but I can't seem to find it. Zero rust, but great questions on the suspension stuff, I will ask. 

Current asking price is 40K, which based on some research seems right about in line. Clearly not a judge, but would remove those decals.....

I welcome your thoughts, and thank you again!


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I wouldnt remove the decals. Looks great! Is it a GTO? I would like to see some provenance, since there's a parts car in the back ground. And I'd like to see some engine and front end pictures.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

luriesd said:


> Roger on both. I saw that trunk alignment issue as well. What source do you prefer for private sellers?


Here, the PY forums, Carsonline, Hemmings, take your pick. You will ALWAYS do better with a private seller in price and quality.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Judge clone, I don't like the rear deck/bumper alignment, wrong shifter, worn out seat trim, and what looks like painted over rust on the frame. This bears inspection. May be nothing, may be something. 40K is all the money for a regular GTO in this condition, which is 'driver' with a re-paint.


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## luriesd (Jul 10, 2012)

Thank you all! I actually looked around and found that in 1970, in the 40K price point, there is not much. As a matter of fact most hard tops in similar condition are 45, and ALL converts are 50+


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Hmmm. Speakers on the door panels? Supposed to cut holes in the door panels and insert them flush - or the kick panels. Need more info. 40K for a convertible driver is not out of line, but if you have to replace/rebuild any of the big ticket items, then it is not so good a deal/

But, might be worth pursuing and putting a personal inspection on the car once you get more info on the engine/trans/rear end, brakes, clutch, suspension.


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## luriesd (Jul 10, 2012)

Agreed. And of course prices are negotiable.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

luriesd said:


> I actually looked around and found that in 1970, in the 40K price point, there is not much.


THAT"S FOR SURE! 

I will say that one thing I find odd on this forum is some of the values. Yes, many of these cars might not be worth the asking price, but when there's nothing else for sale, then the lower limit needs to be raised.

This came up a few months back, and IMO, these "classic car dealerships" are erroneously driving up the market, with their unrealistic pricing... nevertheless, it is inflated for sure.

For anyone who hasnt shopped lately, the pandemic put an end to the $20,000 - $30,000 GTO market. Anything that was out there that cheap, was bought by the dealerships and is being flipped for a $15,000 mark up. 

The GTO's left are all either $7,000 rust out, no engine, full restos... OR $55,000 survivors, OR $65,000 restos


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

BTW, yes, $40k would normally be high for that, but things are no longer normal. If it's a GTO and it's solid, then it's likely the best you might get. But, it'll need elbow grease!


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## 1971LemansWisc (Apr 18, 2021)

Mixing apples and oranges here but ... check out the recent articles about CARMAX and the Used Car Market in general.



https://www.yahoo.com/now/carmax-slides-earnings-miss-adds-125823046.html



Last Fall we were looking for a good used Car for our daughter ... we were floored by what Dealers were asking.

By the time we got to the Private Seller Market ... we just gave up looking for now.

Between Inflation, Interest Rates, Supply and Demand and Market Forces in general ... 2023 is going to be an interesting year.

Only advice I can share is if you have a solid dependable Car or Truck ... take good care of it


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Good point on 'the new normal', Army. I agree with you. I'm kind of locked into the logical 'old normal' and am having a hard time adjusting. The '05 Tundra I bought 6 years ago is worth more $$$ today than I paid then. And go price out building supplies. Or go grocery shopping. My $90 per week grocery bill of the past 5 years is now $165, and I can't get all the same stuff due to supply issues. Welcome to the Third World.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I accidentally found a nice money-making scheme, a few years back, and let me tell you, the pandemic kicked it up a notch!!!

I financed a new, 2015, Jeep Wrangler, Sahara, 4-door.

After 3 years of ownership, I had 30,000 miles on it and I owed $13,000.

I sold it for $28,000!

And then it all made sense. People buy cheap cars, because it's what they can afford, but cheap cars never appreciate, so you're essentially screwing yourself. OTOH, hot cars appreciate, so yes, you're paying more for them, but you also stand to make a profit.

Since Jeep Wranglers have just about the highest resale value and demand of any vehicle out there, as long as you keep it clean, you're going to do very well. Guys want em, girls want em, beach goers, hunters, fisherman, ********, survivalists, etc. So I paid off all my credit card debt with my profit, and then I rolled the dice, this time on a Hemi Grand Cherokee.

Same results! 

This time I leased it for 3 years. It was an SRT, fully loaded, the Corvette of SUVs. After two years of payments, I traded it in (yes, you can trade in leased vehicles) and they gave me $45,000. My buyout was only $30,000!

So for five years straight, I drove fully loaded, badass, luxury vehicles around, and I made over $25,000 doing it. In fact, Im still doing it, now with a Silverado.

Just as with your Tundra, it will be worth a lot more than what I owe, so I'll do the same as with the Jeeps.

The trick is, you HAVE TO buy something that's hot and in demand. That's what will appreciate... People buying V6 Challengers and Mustangs are totally missing the boat. Yeah, maybe you save $100 a month on your payment, but the vehicle is essentially worth nothing by the time it's paid off. If you just buy an SRT, you get the best of both worlds, a car that's a blast to drive, and you can sell it in a few years for a few thousand profit.

Heck, if any of us bought $8000 worth of GTO's in 1970, and parked them in a warehouse, we'd be millionaires today... however, the pandemic has shortened the wait time for appreciation, by at least 45 years!

None of us could ever have predicted this crazy market.


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

More power to you. Between the the cows, bikes and trees taking its toll on the outside and the 4 young'ns beatting up the inside. plus the 35K a year on the running gear. In previous years we would get nothing on a trade in. But we get calls asking us to sell the 2018 back to the dealership monthly. And It looks like my 2006 soccer mobile I will get 6k out of it and that is more than what I paid 6 years ago as a daily driver. My plans when purchased was to do tires and oil and junk it.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

armyadarkness said:


> I accidentally found a nice money-making scheme, a few years back, and let me tell you, the pandemic kicked it up a notch!!!
> 
> I financed a new, 2015, Jeep Wrangler, Sahara, 4-door.
> 
> ...


I knew I should have kept my '72 AMC Hornet hatchback. Probably worth 10K and I only paid my buddy $100.00 who bought it for $50.00. I'd have made some profit on the 6-cyl 3-speed manual car - and hatch back like everyone wants.


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## Rocky Colavito (2 mo ago)

luriesd said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Looking at purchasing a 1965 convertible with this VIN: 237675B105421
> 
> ...


Steve,
The #2 stands for Pontiac; the #’s 37 stands for Le Mans; the #’s 67 stands for convertible; the #5 stands for ‘65; the B stands for build location as Baltimore, MD. The rest of the numbers represent production numbers.
You are correct on the 242 identifying the GTO. I believe the reason is that for ‘64 & ‘65 Pontiac had a GTO options package to add to the Le Mans. It wasn’t until ‘66 that Pontiac came out will a separate model GTO.
Hope this unconfuses you.
Rocky


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## tallrandyb (Jun 12, 2021)

1971LemansWisc said:


> Mixing apples and oranges here but ... check out the recent articles about CARMAX and the Used Car Market in general.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed! Bought two vehicles in 2020 and don’t plan on another purchase for at least five years or more from now…


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## 67ventwindow (Mar 3, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> I knew I should have kept my '72 AMC Hornet hatchback. Probably worth 10K and I only paid my buddy $100.00 who bought it for $50.00. I'd have made some profit on the 6-cyl 3-speed manual car - and hatch back like everyone wants.


 AMC Hornet was the last car my Grand Dad brought in to his junk yard. Sat on it pretended it was a stage coach.


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