# Dealers: How does it work?



## noz34me (Dec 15, 2005)

When you bring a car in under warranty, what's the arrangments between dealer and GM as to how the cost is handled, and how GM reimburses the dealers?

I'm guessing it must be a shared arrangement, otherwise why would any dealer want either deny the problem, and/or do it halfass?

DealerNut, GoatGirl, anyone else know the story?:confused


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## GOATGIRL (Feb 6, 2006)

noz34me said:


> When you bring a car in under warranty, what's the arrangments between dealer and GM as to how the cost is handled, and how GM reimburses the dealers?
> 
> I'm guessing it must be a shared arrangement, otherwise why would any dealer want either deny the problem, and/or do it halfass?
> 
> DealerNut, GoatGirl, anyone else know the story?:confused


That's a really good question! There is a book that the service manager and technicans use that determines how long the labor should be and how much the parts would be. The dealer has to apply for reimbursement with GM in order to get paid for the work. GM is the one who dictates on how much the dealer gets paid. Now, if the technician comes across a situtation where the problem is more complicated and spends more time and money on the problem, I'm sure GM takes that into consideration as well. I can find out more tomorrow from my service director if you want me to.


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## noz34me (Dec 15, 2005)

GOATGIRL said:


> That's a really good question! There is a book that the service manager and technicans use that determines how long the labor should be and how much the parts would be. The dealer has to apply for reimbursement with GM in order to get paid for the work. GM is the one who dictates on how much the dealer gets paid. Now, if the technician comes across a situtation where the problem is more complicated and spends more time and money on the problem, I'm sure GM takes that into consideration as well. I can find out more tomorrow from my service director if you want me to.


Thanks. 

In my (small) mind, problems that come up under warranty would appear to be guaranteed income to a dealer, so why wouldn't they want as much as possible? I've been told that the real money these days is made on sales of used cars and service, not new car sales.

That said, if GM is unfair in compensating the dealers back, for example underestimating service time, then I can see why the service managers are prone to deny service or the famous (can not duplicate problem).


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## GOATGIRL (Feb 6, 2006)

noz34me said:


> Thanks.
> 
> In my (small) mind, problems that come up under warranty would appear to be guaranteed income to a dealer, so why wouldn't they want as much as possible? I've been told that the real money these days is made on sales of used cars and service, not new car sales.
> 
> That said, if GM is unfair in compensating the dealers back, for example underestimating service time, then I can see why the service managers are prone to deny service or the famous (can not duplicate problem).



Well, believe it or not, the servie department really relies on the New Car Department to sell cars. That's were they get the majority of their new customers. If you have a new car department that takes care of their customers, studies show that the customer will more than likely go to that dealership for servicing. All in all, the new car, used car, and service departments all rely on each other to make money.


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## Jeffs386 (Nov 1, 2005)

this is a very good question.......when I discovered 2 small areas of paint that were blotched on my GTO the first 3 dealers I took it to wanted to repaint the car,I had to drive over 100 miles back to the original dealer to have them repair it with a heat lamp,took 20 mins
I know that the first 3 dealers wanted to paint the car instead of repair it because there was more $$$$$ involved that way .....but I was the one who lost out because it cost me a 1/2 tank of gas ,1 wasted day of driving and over 200 miles put on the car for no reason since it could have been handled here


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## GOATGIRL (Feb 6, 2006)

Jeffs386 said:


> this is a very good question.......when I discovered 2 small areas of paint that were blotched on my GTO the first 3 dealers I took it to wanted to repaint the car,I had to drive over 100 miles back to the original dealer to have them repair it with a heat lamp,took 20 mins
> I know that the first 3 dealers wanted to paint the car instead of repair it because there was more $$$$$ involved that way .....but I was the one who lost out because it cost me a 1/2 tank of gas ,1 wasted day of driving and over 200 miles put on the car for no reason since it could have been handled here


 I can't speak for other dealerships but they should've given you all possible options instead of just the most expensive one. To me it's unethical to do business any other way.


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

noz34me said:


> That said, if GM is unfair in compensating the dealers back, for example underestimating service time, then I can see why the service managers are prone to deny service or the famous (can not duplicate problem).


This is becoming more and more of a problem in the car business. All the automakers keep whittling down the amounts they're willing to pay for service. Read in The Wall Street Journal that Ford cut the amount of time for an engine change in a Navigator down to something like 8 hours. Keep in mind that's for the diagnosis, ordering the engine, removing the old and installing the new. No way.

The end result is dealers avoiding work they know they'll lose their butt on -- and, sadly, reductions in compensation for all service-related personnel. Service advisors used to be career professionals -- now they're pimply faced kids who don't know what they're doing. And our closest Ford dealer just threw all their union mechanics out the door. Bottom line? I want nothing to do with what used to be my favorite dealership.


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## GOATGIRL (Feb 6, 2006)

You know, it's stuff like that makes me almost ashamed that I'm in the car business. I honestly believe customer service and customer satisfaction should be the #1 TOP Priority in every dealership. After all, with out the consumer, I wouldn't have a job. I'm beginning to wonder if other dealership understand that concept as well?


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## LS2 - Light SpeedX2 (Nov 10, 2005)

GOATGIRL said:


> You know, it's stuff like that makes me almost ashamed that I'm in the car business. I honestly believe customer service and customer satisfaction should be the #1 TOP Priority in every dealership. After all, with out the consumer, I wouldn't have a job. I'm beginning to wonder if other dealership understand that concept as well?


I agree goatgirl. It's strange that some dealships treat you like a stepchild once you buy your car and others treat you like gold. Word of mouth is still the best form of advertisement. Good or bad.


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## LS2 - Light SpeedX2 (Nov 10, 2005)

dealships?? hmm mine brain isn't working with mine fingers very well.


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## GOATGIRL (Feb 6, 2006)

Word of mouth is always the best form of advertisement!


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## Noraku_6.0L (Nov 9, 2005)

That’s very interesting, wish I had known this before I was jiped by my dealer. I drove off the lot with a bad tranny (I smelled the burning clutch burning during the test drive [The salesman was driving BTW not me]) and in 2 days I brought it back and they charged me $1400 and blamed it on drivers error. Which I found profoundly unjust.


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## GOATGIRL (Feb 6, 2006)

Noraku_6.0L said:


> That’s very interesting, wish I had known this before I was jiped by my dealer. I drove off the lot with a bad tranny (I smelled the burning clutch burning during the test drive [The salesman was driving BTW not me]) and in 2 days I brought it back and they charged me $1400 and blamed it on drivers error. Which I found profoundly unjust.


Did you ask your salesman what that burning smell was and what was his reaction?


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## Noraku_6.0L (Nov 9, 2005)

After we drove back into the dealer I was looking under the car and I smelled it, at the time I didn't know what it was. I asked him, and he replied it's the exhaust. I admit I was a bit puzzled, but I was blinded by the excitement of driving off with an 05 400HP GTO, I forgot all about when I started signing papers. I found out it was my clutch when I brought it a close friend who informed me that the bad smell was my clutch. And it was on the brink of destruction seeing that we were just taking a stroll at 40mph and clutch was slipping.


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## GOATGIRL (Feb 6, 2006)

Noraku_6.0L said:


> After we drove back into the dealer I was looking under the car and I smelled it, at the time I didn't know what it was. I asked him, and he replied it's the exhaust. I admit I was a bit puzzled, but I was blinded by the excitement of driving off with an 05 400HP GTO, I forgot all about when I started signing papers. I found out it was my clutch when I brought it a close friend who informed me that the bad smell was my clutch. And it was on the brink of destruction seeing that we were just taking a stroll at 40mph and clutch was slipping.



Wow...it sounds like the salesman was talking out of his arce...what he should've done is told the salesmanager and had them check it out and fix it before you took delivery...but that's my personal opinion. Sorry you had such a terrible experience at that particular GM dealership. I hope you know that not all GM dealership are that way.


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## PEARL JAM (Sep 6, 2005)

GOATGIRL said:


> Now, if the technician comes across a situtation where the problem is more complicated and spends more time and money on the problem, I'm sure GM takes that into consideration as well.


NOT TRUE!!!!
If a technition(like me)has, say, an intermittant electrical problem on a car,and takes 6 hours to diagnose(remember,INTERMITANT in this sinario) Turns out to be a Mass Air Flow sensor is the problem. I will get paid the .2 of a labor hour for installing the part.If I have time punched on the repair order for those 6 hours I was 1)trying to varify the customer's complaint(duplicate the problem) 2)properly follow any diagnostic flow chart GM MAY have come up with for this problem 3) Install the part 4)varify the repair(drive the vehicle to make sure I have fixed it 5) write up paper work.......The most extra time GM is allowed to give a technition is TWO HOURS.If a problem is too complicated and a problem cannot be solved by us using the diagnostic info. GM provides us,we have an engineering hotline to call.THIS IS A JOKE! I have had situations where these guys have told us they don't have a fix for my customer's problem. I'M SUPPOSED TO TELL THEM THAT?! When you do take your car to a dealer for repairs,please have patients. We know it is your $30k baby we are working on and want nothing more than to get it back to you clean,and fixed correctly.
Sorry for the rant,just want people to know that a service department is only as good as the tools a manufacturer gives it.:cool


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## dealernut (Oct 22, 2005)

Here is a good example of why customers have bad opinions.

A customer of mine had to have his top repaired on his brand new Solstice. 

We determined we needed to replace the top. 

GM paid the tech 2 hours for the replacement. 


It took him 7 hours of continous work to make the swap. Had he taken the alloted time it would have been a crap job. 


Things like that are the reason for bad service.


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## PEARL JAM (Sep 6, 2005)

Exactly. It's the mechanics that take pride in their work(knowing sometimes we won't get paid for it all) that you never hear about on these forums.:cool


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## k1200lt (Jan 18, 2006)

PEARL JAM said:


> Exactly. It's the mechanics that take pride in their work(knowing sometimes we won't get paid for it all) that you never hear about on these forums.:cool


Yes, but that works 2 ways. I have an '05 Bonneville GXP that has had a driver's door leak since I've purchased it. It's now 5 times to the shop and it still leaks. The last repair states they replaced the butyl seal around the door. I inspected the seal and low and behold, there was pieces of my wife's Sedum plant when it sheds for the winter. The Same Plant That Shed It's Leaves Last November. Amazing, too that the area under the seal was still dirty, you would have to work very carefully to replace the seal but keep the dirt intact. "You know what I mean, Vern?"


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## PEARL JAM (Sep 6, 2005)

k1200lt said:


> Yes, but that works 2 ways. I have an '05 Bonneville GXP that has had a driver's door leak since I've purchased it. It's now 5 times to the shop and it still leaks. The last repair states they replaced the butyl seal around the door. I inspected the seal and low and behold, there was pieces of my wife's Sedum plant when it sheds for the winter. The Same Plant That Shed It's Leaves Last November. Amazing, too that the area under the seal was still dirty, you would have to work very carefully to replace the seal but keep the dirt intact. "You know what I mean, Vern?"


Sounds like somebody lied to you.
Might be a good idea to inspect the work before you leave the dealer.:cool


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## BlownGTO (Dec 9, 2005)

Ok from my experience as a Tech at a pontiac dealership, warranty work basically screws the shop and the tech on paid hours. See all MFG's have a list of basically every type of job that could be performed under WTY. Each one of these jobs pay a certain amount time to the tech. This time was determined by the MFG. The dealership has the work done and I believe the MFG pays the dealer for warranty work performed. If there is something that is questionable as warranty work, the dealer will contact the MFG directly and get approval before proceeding. Same things usually happens with high dollar warranty repairs. I wasnt a service writer, but the time set forth to do "most" jobs is not fair. Some jobs overpay, some under pay. Anymore questions I can answer as a tech?


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## GOATGIRL (Feb 6, 2006)

I'm glad you answered those questions...you were very helpful! Even though I'm in the business, it's always great to hear it from a tech's point of view, especially when it comes to these type of questions!


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## PEARL JAM (Sep 6, 2005)

Another factor is warranty expense. Each dealer has a "recamended" amount of expense GM thinks dealers' service depts. should get for each vehicle under warranty. If the warranty expense of a dealer is high, a red flag goes up and next thing you know there is a GM division rep. hassling your service manager. This system is what propels a dealer to fix warranty cars at the lowest cost as possible. EXAMPLE: GM trucks currently have a problem with the lubricant in their steering shafts failing,getting corroded. That "clunk clunk" you feel and hear in your steering wheel of your 99+Tahoe, Yucon,Sierra and Silverado when you turn. GM's first fix was a "Lube kit". Remove the shaft, lube it up,(lol) replace it. This fixed the problem for about only 15k miles, so GM told dealers to replace the shafts. This lasted longer, but proved too costly. So......now we are back to lubricating the shafts, which GM knows is not the best fix,(replacement was) but is the most cost effective. It's not just GM. Pretty much all manufactures operate this way.


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## BlownGTO (Dec 9, 2005)

GOATGIRL said:


> I'm glad you answered those questions...you were very helpful! Even though I'm in the business, it's always great to hear it from a tech's point of view, especially when it comes to these type of questions!


Hey right back at ya, thanks!


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

k1200lt said:


> Yes, but that works 2 ways. I have an '05 Bonneville GXP that has had a driver's door leak since I've purchased it. It's now 5 times to the shop and it still leaks. The last repair states they replaced the butyl seal around the door. I inspected the seal and low and behold, there was pieces of my wife's Sedum plant when it sheds for the winter. The Same Plant That Shed It's Leaves Last November. Amazing, too that the area under the seal was still dirty, you would have to work very carefully to replace the seal but keep the dirt intact. "You know what I mean, Vern?"


Not surprised. I've also had dealers try to "double dip" me by billing expenses back to the factory under warranty -- then turn around and try to bill ME by saying it wasn't covered under warranty. Unfortunately, I'm sure that dealer got away with it plenty of times -- because the average customer has no idea what they're doing and it afraid to fight.


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## noz34me (Dec 15, 2005)

b_a_betterperson said:


> Not surprised. I've also had dealers try to "double dip" me by billing expenses back to the factory under warranty -- then turn around and try to bill ME by saying it wasn't covered under warranty. Unfortunately, I'm sure that dealer got away with it plenty of times -- because the average customer has no idea what they're doing and it afraid to fight.


There's a VW dealership close to me that does that "double dip" routine. Warranty repairs are not just a GM problem.

I bought one of the new Ford F-150's in '97 when they redesigned them. Babied that truck just like I do my GTO now. Never even had it in the rain. After about 4 years of ownership, I did get caught in the rain, and noticed a leak at the rear window. Checked with dealership, and the body manager said "Yeah, we know about that, dripping on the passenger seat, right?" "They over torqued the nuts for the window frame at the factory, and cracked the plastic housing". 

Do you think they would cover that repair? Heck no! The dealer did agree to cover 1/2 the cost out of his own pocket. IMHO, that's a manufacturing defect that should be covered by Ford! One reason I didn't buy a Mustang, but there's similar problems and stories with other GM vehicles I've owned.

Maybe it's that way at all car companies, excluding maybe Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura.


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## bsmcall (Sep 11, 2004)

PEARL JAM said:


> EXAMPLE: GM trucks currently have a problem with the lubricant in their steering shafts failing,getting corroded. That "clunk clunk" you feel and hear in your steering wheel of your 99+Tahoe, Yucon,Sierra and Silverado when you turn. GM's first fix was a "Lube kit". Remove the shaft, lube it up,(lol) replace it. This fixed the problem for about only 15k miles, so GM told dealers to replace the shafts. This lasted longer, but proved too costly. So......now we are back to lubricating the shafts, which GM knows is not the best fix,(replacement was) but is the most cost effective. It's not just GM. Pretty much all manufactures operate this way.


 Every once in a while, something non-goat catches my eye. I personally maintain 11 '99 or newer gmt800 trucks and have never sent them back to have the steering shaft re-lubed or replaced. My high record mileage is only 268k on a '99. Pop the hood and tighten the through bolt @ the lower to intermediate shaft connnnection until it removes play from the connection. Problem fixed, period. Never had to remove anything, just turn the steering wheel so that a torque wrench and 15mm socket can be used. (around 75 lb/ft.):cool


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## PEARL JAM (Sep 6, 2005)

bsmcall said:


> Every once in a while, something non-goat catches my eye. I personally maintain 11 '99 or newer gmt800 trucks and have never sent them back to have the steering shaft re-lubed or replaced. My high record mileage is only 268k on a '99. Pop the hood and tighten the through bolt @ the lower to intermediate shaft connnnection until it removes play from the connection. Problem fixed, period. Never had to remove anything, just turn the steering wheel so that a torque wrench and 15mm socket can be used. (around 75 lb/ft.):cool


If that works for you I'm glad, but the connection play is not causing the noise.:cool 

This is from an older GM Hummer TSB,not used anymore, but lists all 99+ C,K trucks, also.
http://www.flashoffroad.com/H2/maintenance/Tech_Bulletins/h2bulletins.html
Heres one for the cars.SAME problem.
http://www.colinkraft.com/shaft.php
Note it says "solution,lubrication. Do not replace the shaft."
This is gm's trucks website.This is the one we originally used, then started replacing the shafts, now we use this method, again.
http://gm-trucks.com/home/content/view/232/25/


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