# "Continually stalling out in traffic …UPDATE AS OF 5/5/2017



## stewartlong (May 30, 2015)

Well I took everyones advice and moved in on trying to find out if I had fuel or ignition problem and here’s what I did and now have resolved that to this point I’ve done just about everything especially after talking with Chief Technical Advisor for GTO Association of America Scott Tiemann and his father Jerry from Super Cars Specialties, Portland MI on the phone several times and working with my good friend Dave Jennings Niagara Falls Canada (who consults in restoring and wiring vintage cars).

Here’s what I know about my GTO: “That it hit the ground in the Fall of 1964 right as Deloren was getting creamed about him trying to market too powerful of muscle cars and all of that mess and the GTO was created off a Tempest/LeMans build sheet and was a GTO option.

Knowing that I launched into the research with all of the suggestions you folks had given me for looking for trouble and took it one step at a time.

Since I had already dug myself into this fuel side of solving the problem and looking for “Vapor Lock” issues and solving those problems that were so common in 1964-67 Pontiacs and Chevy’s, this is what I did.

1.*Put in an electric fuel pump that hangs from a steel shelf another guy and I welded up so that its hanging down from the underside of the trunk shelf in front of the pumpkin on the rear and sits just below the sender unit and outlet pipe for the gas tank back wall.

2.*I bought a brand new gas tank from Auto City Classics in Minnesota after I discovered that somebody had thrown metal shavings in the old one.

**What I later discovered is that these folks copied the old CGM37H exactly with the old technology that had this one little vent pipe that came out of the fill tube which was really to be used as a vent relief for the gas pump fill handle when it back off as the tank fills.

This vent was also creating problems for people in that it wasn’t allowing gas to flow freely to the mechanical fuel pump up on the engine so in mid-1965 GM and Pontiac came out with this vent type tube that came up inside the trunk just behind the trunk latch and back down into the tank.

I did not have any way to even attach such a device because the design of my new tank was based on the original tank from 1964.

3.*So I bought a STANT 31807 VENTED GAS CAP after I called Gates and they kept reading me back a number cap that was Non-Vented which was supposed to be and was on my old tank.

4.*Then I ordered a new sender that had the 3/8” outlet pipe but also had a vent tube which was really supposed to be a return line from the mechanical fuel pump up front if you had it and they told me at Auto City Classics that a lot guys that have had problems with gas glow and venting these tanks would attach a long enough hose and hang it way up under the trunk shelf so gas wouldn’t syphon out and when the tank got low enough that that would also help in relieving that vacuum build up that I was getting.

5.*Although I had brand new metal gas line that was insulated all the way to the front I felt some of those spec bends came really close to the exhaust and mufflers so I put new 3/8” rubber fuel injector type fuel line fully insulated all the way from the electric fuel pump to the regulator and then on to the new Edelbrock 600 carburetor. There are 2 insulated fuel filters, one back at the electric fuel pump and one right in front of the carburetor.

6.*The objective was to run 5.5 PSI.

7.*I also decided to run ¾ of a tank full of gas so that I would leave more room from the top of the fuel sloshing around and the top of the tank. (This was my idea only just trying to grasp at straws to figure why the shut down).

Took the car out right after we got the tank back up and it ran like a “scalded dog in heat”.

Took it out the next day all around town and over to the Gateway Tire place for a wheel alignment again and to change out the 50 year old studs in the rear.

Then ran it out on Mack Hatcher Parkway here in Franklin, TN which is a by-pass of sorts around Franklin to get it up to 60 mph and it hung in there great.

Temperature was riding at 190-195-degrees.

I needed to stop and make an errand and when I went to pull into the parking lot of the store I felt a flinch and a start to cutting out.

I noticed the temperature had moved up to 198-200-degrees.

I turned it off and went in the store and did what I needed to do and came out after about 15 minutes and started it right up.

The temperature was now down around 180-degrees.

I took the back way home because of all the construction around town and I knew about a straight away place that I could really open it up.

And I did that and mashed it to the floor and got it up to 85 mph and it was running out of road so I backed off.

So I cruised on home, got up my driveway in back of the house and it died.

The temperature was at 200-degrees.

*Couldn’t start it.*

I had to let it sit and cool down for 25 minutes until the temperature got down to 170-degrees and it started right up and got it up the hill into my garage where I could work on it.

I emailed my friend Dave Jennings and the next morning called Scott Tiemann and updated him on the improvements and the events and they both immediately said *“IT’S GOT TO BE IGNITION”.
*
In talking with Scott, I said that I had replaced the HEI DISTRIBUTOR that was in it with a PROFORM STREET/STRIP HEI DISTRIBUTOR 66953 and everybody has been telling me from the forums to replace the coil and the module that the module especially could be bad right out of the box.

I said to him *“It’s this Chinese junk with no quality control on these parts and its coming out of the box broke”.*

*He said,“YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! With all the restorations that they do in this shop all of the parts especially these HEI DISTRIBUTORS are junk absolute junk and even when we go to original mechanical fuel pumps and distributors we can’t trust them. Its try several until they work.”*

So here’s where I’m at getting this car ready to tow it to New Jersey and then to go on an AACA tour in Gettysburg at the beginning of June today Friday May 5, 2017.

The strategy:

First, I went down after my friend found the coil and module parts number from Autozone (and I really don’t like Autozone Duralast stuff either because you don’t know whose building their stuff at all)
I bought a coil and a module and dielectric grease to put back in the tool box in the trunk of the GTO as back up.
Then I went up to O’Reilly’s Auto Parts store where I know a gal in there that’s been working there for a year and has been in the auto parts business for 21 years and I asked her which brand have you had the most returns on. “She said we haven’t had any returns on coils and modules”.

I said *“which brand do you carry that is USA made and she said BWD Select made in Virginia”.*

I said *“give me one of their coils and one of their modules to fit this GM HEI DISTRIBUTOR”.*

So that’s the strategy and a good friend who knows his way around these distributor’s and I are going to put them in on Sunday.
After this guys I just don’t know what to say if this continues but I can truthfully say,* “I’ve done everything I can possibly do and I thank you one and all for your suggestions and hope to return the favor down the road.”

Thanks again.

Stew Long


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## stewartlong (May 30, 2015)

*OK Folks just got this reply from*

another Pontiac Forum and need your take on it.

*"Now go back and buy a good quality cap harness, and do NOT reuse the cheap one off the pro trash distributor or you'll be watching from the curb again.

It's that harness folks that's got the loose fitting terminals in it.

Loose fit = resistance= heat= no bueno for electronic parts."*

How hard is this to change out?

Stew


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## pjw1967 (Mar 10, 2014)

When you say you "couldn't start it", did you mean it would crank but not catch, or not crank at all like the battery was dead. If no crank at all, could be heat soak. I solved that problem 10 years ago by going to a high torque mini starter and a Nbr 2 gauge positive battery cable. It gets hot here in H Town. I can run at 200 deg, shut the car off, wait 30 seconds, and it starts right back up again.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

*PJ*: You support the theory that POINTS type distributors are superior over aftermarket HEI types. 

*SL*: "He said,“YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! With all the restorations that they do in this shop all of the parts especially these HEI DISTRIBUTORS are junk absolute junk and even when we go to original mechanical fuel pumps and distributors we can’t trust them. Its try several until they work.” "

*PJ*: Not how I want to "find" a good distributor by trial and error and keep sending them back at cost to me. A good mechanic should have the tools/equipment to diagnose/test any distributor to see if it is good or bad and trial and error is not a "tool." In the "old days", they had this thing called a "scope" that the engine was hooked up to and it would diagnose all your ignition problems with the car running - I used to have one. It had an *OSCILLOSCOPE* - "An oscilloscope, informally known as a scope, is a type of electronic test instrument that allows observation of constantly varying signal voltages, usually as a two-dimensional plot of one or more signals as a function of time. Oscilloscopes are used to observe the change of an electrical signal over time, such that voltage and time describe a shape which is continuously graphed against a calibrated scale. The observed waveform can be analyzed for such properties as amplitude, frequency, rise time, time interval, distortion and others.

_It is sad _that this "old technology" that worked and saved a lot of guess work has become today's unskilled thinking of "try several until they work” mentality that costs you, the auto enthusiast, high dollars and frustration for something that is quickly diagnosed. They even had a machine to set your distributor's points dwell, and advance curve - especially for us guys who used dual point distributors with mechanical advance only on our high performance builds.

Here is my personal opinion only because I have used the PerTronix products with success as have many other people. Here is their website if you want to read more about the features of each Ignitor product listed below: 

Option 1 - If you wanted an electronic distributor, I would be ditching the Chinese made HEI, install the factory type points distributor and then install a PerTronix electronic conversion kit. Use their Flame-Thrower coil. I used this on my 400CI and had no problems. Keeps the factory look as well. I get that the factory HEI may be hard to source locally and then you would most likely have to send it out for rebuild if you could not do this yourself, but the factory stuff worked without problems or guessing. If any problems, it was generally the module that went bad and it was cheap to buy and easy to replace. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pnx-1181/overview/make/pontiac

Option 2 - Get the PerTronix Plug & Play Electronic Distributors with the Ignitor II Module if you want to run an MSD unit or the Ignitor III if you don't. I got the Ignitor II for my engine build, but have not tried it out. You can paint the base black if you don't like the polished aluminum. Again, keeps the factory look. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pnx-d120700/overview/make/pontiac

Option 3 - PerTronix HEI Distributor if you gotta have HEI: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pnx-d1200/overview/make/pontiac

*PJ*: On the fuel system - sounds like you have that one worked out.

*SL*: "*I bought a brand new gas tank from Auto City Classics in Minnesota after I discovered that somebody had thrown metal shavings in the old one."

*PJ*: The "sock" found on the end of the sending unit pick-up tube that acts as a filter should have prevented any metal shavings/chips from entering your fuel system.

*SL*: "4.*Then I ordered a new sender that had the 3/8” outlet pipe but also had a vent tube which was really supposed to be a return line from the mechanical fuel pump up front if you had it and they told me at Auto City Classics that a lot guys that have had problems with gas glow and venting these tanks would attach a long enough hose and hang it way up under the trunk shelf so gas wouldn’t syphon out and when the tank got low enough that that would also help in relieving that vacuum build up that I was getting."

*PJ*: The tank having no vent on the filler neck used a vented fuel cap. The problem with this was that when you floor the car, the hard acceleration threw the gas back and pushed some of it out the vented cap - you will see the gas or smell it, especially if you top off your tank.

I take it you did not use the 1/4" metal line on the fuel sending unit as a return line from the fuel pump or the 3-outlet fuel filter? The 1/4" return line helped vapor lock situations and was used on AC cars - which has been covered on the forums. That said, a vent line could certainly be made of the 1/4" fuel return line on the sending unit. 

The later '68 and up tanks used the filler neck vent AND a vent found on the rear top/front of the tank by the rear axle. The attached pic will show you how this worked. This is what you can do with the 1/4" fuel return line and convert it to use as a vent line. You want to make sure the line is placed higher than the tank of course, and then vents downward. Personally, I think I would use a larger piece of 5/16" steel tubing, shape it to fit, and use a small length of rubber hose to join the 1/4" fitting at the sending unit to the 5/16" line. The top right diagram shows the hose terminating straight up with a restricter (actually a small filter) on the end. Form your steel line to go high up like near where the restricter is, then make a U-bend to point the open end of the steel line towards the ground. Then cap it off with a fuel filter which will act as a spark arrestor and keep road debris/water out.

The pic in the lower right/left is similar to the 65-67 vent tube coming off the filler neck and up into the trunk. You cannot use this if your filler neck does not have the small vent tube nipple. 

*SL*: "Couldn’t start it. I had to let it sit and cool down for 25 minutes until the temperature got down to 170-degrees and it started right up."

*PJ*: As *pjw1967* stated, what did you mean? Your water temps are fine, so not really a problem although "heat" can be a problem that can cause electrical, ignition, and fuel start problems.

Hard starting can be a carb problem (flooding - put the pedal flat to the floor next time as this not only will clear excess gas, but allow cooler air in that can help), gas percolation/vapor lock (a phenolic insulator under the carb may help here), your ignition timing can be out of adjustment and may need to be adjusted, timing chain is sloppy/loose which in turn changes ignition timing, "heat soak" as pjw1967 suggested, starter/starter solenoid going bad/weak, corrosion inside the small purple wire found on the starter solenoid that activates your starter(very common problem), corrosion inside battery cables, poor grounding of the engine/body. 

Cannot recall if you mentioned in your earlier posts of you have direct 12 volts going to the HEI and you eliminated the factory resistor wire for the original points distributor. You need 12V at the HEI when the car is both started and running.

So a few more things to check with regards to no/hard starting, but we need more info on what you mean by "could not start."


:thumbsup:


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

HATE TO HEAR YOU ARE STILL HAVING TROUBLE,..!!

heating uo and not starting can be classic signs of resistance build up in a wire from heat and age or both.

Cheap modules are aplenty but you say you have had the same problem with2 different distributors,..could be the dizzy or module, but it would have to be 2 bad the same way...less likely.

if you are satified the fuel is good, then i would be looking and checking for voltage drop first from the ignition switch to the firewall connector in the run position.

second from the firewall engine compartment to the coil and the s switch on starter, the purple wire. these wires that go thru the vent tube next to the exhaust cook and heat up and resist voltage flow....

you can change every Dizzy on earth and module, but if the ignition switch is bad, it will do just these symtoms, as will heat resistance in the wires to the starter and the coil, if that coil wire supply drops to 7 or 8 no start...

changing the coil wont't help,.....Ignition problem, well yes...but only because there may be high resistance in the wires that feed the ignition.

those coolant temps are not that hot, should not keep any car from starting for mechanical reasons.

good luck, but have your mechanic check voltage drop when the car is cold and when the car is hot.....see what is what.

Good Luck!!:nerd::nerd:


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## stewartlong (May 30, 2015)

Thanks going after this one right now...ordered what I could get in such a short time to load up and go to New Jersey by Wednesday and then what the cross reference was to a Pro Tronix wiring harness coming in to take on the road. 

So I'm gong to end up changing out the module; coil and wiring harness and see what happens and have spares for all 3 in the tool box in the truck.

Thanks.


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## stewartlong (May 30, 2015)

Oh it cranked and I had gas spewing out of the carburetor with the air cleaner off and another guy found spark when I broke down on those many times.
Thanks for your input.


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## stewartlong (May 30, 2015)

Thank you PJ for your wonderful suggestions and I now know that I have moved over from attacking a fuel problem to attacking this ignition problem if for no other reason that to eliminate it.

For right now I do have 12v at the HEI and am going after replacing the module, coil and wiring harness and will then find somebody with an OSCILLACSOPE and get this tested out.

I know the grounds are what they should be and its an all new wiring harness throughout the car.

I really do see the improvements in the fuel delivery and am glad I did it with the new carburetor and all. For a driver if I can get this straightened out its going to be a fine car but boy oh boy has this been frustrating.

Thanks again.


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## stewartlong (May 30, 2015)

Really appreciate the reply Lemans guy and will head after that one after I get the module; coil and wiring harness changed out on the HEI and get and Oscilloscope on it.

Thanks.


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## stewartlong (May 30, 2015)

Thanks guys for being there for me on this where other forums have ridiculed me for what I have done in trying to solve this problem.

This has been a real hard problem to diagnose because its always happening when the car is at 200-degrees and in heavy traffic broken down on the side of the road with cars dodging you and the car and trying not to rear end you and scaring the crap out of you.

Your patience in me as a "guy fresh in from the new world not knowing what I'm doing" is most encouraging.

Hope to return the favor down the road.

Thanks again.
Stew


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## stewartlong (May 30, 2015)

LEMANS GUY I live just outside of Franklin, TN where in Nashville do you live?

Stew


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## Montreux (Mar 8, 2009)

stewartlong said:


> Oh it cranked and I had gas spewing out of the carburetor with the air cleaner off and another guy found spark when I broke down on those many times.
> Thanks for your input.


If you have spark and “gas spewing out of the carburetor” it sounds like a carb problem!

Gas boiling in the carburetor during hot soak has nowhere to go but into the engine. You’re flooded. 

On a normal hot restart, hold the pedal down about 1/4 way. When the engine fires, stay at 1/4 throttle till the engine clears it’s throat. Don’t over-rev the engine, and DON’T pump the gas.

If it’s flooded, hold the pedal on the floor and crank. Again, hold at fast idle until it clears and DON’T PUMP THE PEDAL. 

A phenolic carb spacwe or Metal heat shield may help with heat soak. Lowering the float level a little may help.


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## Montreux (Mar 8, 2009)

HEI and Pertronix require a full 12 volts at the ignition. Points ignition uses a resistance wire from the firewall to the coil that drops voltage to about 8 volts.
You can:
Replace the wire (harness surgery)
Replace the harness (M&H offers “HEI” engine harnesses)
Use the existing wire to trigger a relay from the battery
I think factory CD ignitions used a jumper on the back of the ignition switch to join the start and run coil wires.


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