# oiling problems 455



## mbspeed (Sep 25, 2012)

Pontiac Engine masters please help me ...I have one or two rocker arms not getting oil got a hyd roller cam burned out rocker arm # 3 cylinder pulled lifters out put in a new lifter pair looks like oil was flowing ok put it all back together and problem returned new lifters pushrods rocker arms oil pressure 80 psi cold about 30 warm.. when I prime motor with power drill looks like oil was coming out around lifters bores I am guessing it was normal that's why put motor back together could I have to heavy of an oil its 20/50 ??? I have had so many problems with this motor keep putting $$$$ into it hoping will be a runner but its a dud :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

20/50 oil is too heavy.

You did not install lifter oil restictors in the block did you? You don't want to use them with a hydraulic cam.

Did you set the pre-load on the lifters correctly? I have no experience with hyd. rollers, but the manufacturer of your lifters should have a guide on how to set them. There are several on-line tips here, but I would go with your manufacturers procedures. In my experience with flat tappet hydraulic lifters, if they don't have the correct pre-load, the oil does not flow as well to the rockers.

My guess is that you should see some oil coming from the lifter/lifter bore, but I would think no too much. Lifter bores do wear and sometimes need a bushing installed to correct the tolerances. Also, silly question but I have to ask, are you sure your lifters are Pontiac and not Chevy? Chevy puts the oil groove higher up on the lifter and when the lifter is on the top of the cam lobe at its highest lift point, the oil would pour out around the exposed oil groove -not good. Pontiac is further down so that the groove does not lift too high and out of the lifter bore, which maintains oil pressure and oil goes through the lifter and up to the rockers as it is supposed to.

Now personally, 80PSI in my opinion is too high for a stock clearance engine, but I assume that's cold? 30PSI at idle hot is good, but what is it hot at an RPM above 2,500 -3,000 RPM's? I would switch to a 10/40 for the street as 20/50 is for a race engine having more clearances on the bearings. You oil pressure may drop slightly with the thinner oil. Again, your machinist should be able to tell you this based on your rod/main clearances.

Another thought. Did you check your pushrod length and rocker arm geometry? This could also be giving you a problem.

Sorry if I sound confusing, just trying to cover all bases on some things I would look into in solving the problem you are having. Seems odd it is only with one cylinder and the others seem to be OK. Can be frustrating, but don't get discouraged.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Your post is a little difficult to follow with no punctuation to mark where the sentences are  But if I understood correctly, did you say that you saw oil coming out around the lifter bores? -- as in leaking out around the outsides of the lifters -- while you were priming the engine? If so, that doesn't sound right to me. What you're looking for when you prime the oiling system is to see oil coming out from the tops of the pushrods and spilling out over the rocker arms, then down around the rocker balls. It can take awhile for that to happen, and you may have to rotate the crank a little by hand to get all of them to flow, but you should be able to. If not, then you need to find the cause. Could be a plugged oil passage in the pushrod, excessively worn lifter bores that let the oil leak out around the lifter instead of forcing it up through the pushrod, plugged/bad lifter, etc.

Bear


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Although this is for flat tappet cams, and not roller cams, the principals are similar. Might give you a few ideas. Camshaft Installation

This material also mentions the valves hitting the pistons. Don't know what kind of lift you have on your cam, but did you check this? Sometimes pistons don't have a deep enough valve notch to be used with some high lift camshafts, and then the notches have to be deepened if the pistons are thick enough on the top. I have read in another post were the poster was having a problem bending pushrods just on one cylinder. Turned out the valve was just hitting the one piston because of the timing on the camshaft when it was installed (which means he probably still had too little clearance between the valve and piston). If the cam is advanced or retarded, it changes the amount of clearance you have between the valve and piston.


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## mbspeed (Sep 25, 2012)

PontiacJim said:


> 20/50 oil is too heavy.
> 
> You did not install lifter oil restictors in the block did you? You don't want to use them with a hydraulic cam.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply..no oil restrictors in motor ..I a running a comp hyd roller cam grind XR276HR max lift 500/510..looks like one pair of lifters not pumping oil also comp cams lifters and rocker arms ...preload was set on base circle of cam 3/4 turn after 0 lash ..I will switch to 10w30 oil and replace lifters this is what rocker arm looked like when I removed valve cover ..:cryin:


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Ah ha! Here is what I see, the rocker nuts have backed off and the rocker arms went sideways -unless you have already backed them off.

Those look like stock type rocker arm nuts on the Chevy 7/16" rocker studs? If so, they will back off. The factory Pontiac nuts/studs were designed to be torqued down into place so they don't back off. If you have the stock type rocker arm nuts (even if they are called "self locking"), there is no way to torque them down on the 7/16" rocker arm studs -so they WILL back off and your rocker arms WILL go sideways, and of course pushrods may either bend or come loose and lifters jump out of the bore. Ask me how I know? Yep, another lesson learned as I used the new rocker arm nuts that came with my new stamped steel rocker arms.

SOLUTION: You have to buy a set of these. ARP sells them by the name Perma-Loc, Comp Cams calls them Hi-Tech polylock rocker arm adjusting nuts. They are generally used with solid cams, but they can be used with hydraulic cams as well. Never had another problem after that.:thumbsup:

You cam lift should be fine as that is not too excessive. I would definitely suggest the locking type rocker arm nuts that have the allen screw in the top to cinch them down.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

:Agree: Yes indeed. Factory style Pontiac rocker nuts will only work with the factory Pontiac "bottleneck" rocker studs. You need some poly-locks on there.

Bear


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## mbspeed (Sep 25, 2012)

PontiacJim said:


> Ah ha! Here is what I see, the rocker nuts have backed off and the rocker arms went sideways -unless you have already backed them off.
> 
> Those look like stock type rocker arm nuts on the Chevy 7/16" rocker studs? If so, they will back off. The factory Pontiac nuts/studs were designed to be torqued down into place so they don't back off. If you have the stock type rocker arm nuts (even if they are called "self locking"), there is no way to torque them down on the 7/16" rocker arm studs -so they WILL back off and your rocker arms WILL go sideways, and of course pushrods may either bend or come loose and lifters jump out of the bore. Ask me how I know? Yep, another lesson learned as I used the new rocker arm nuts that came with my new stamped steel rocker arms.
> 
> ...


I did back out nuts to remove push rods and lifters I also have new rocker arms with poly locks ..I also ran motor with valve cover off and some rockers get good oiling some very little now full roller scorpion rocker with new roller lifters... could this have any thing to do with my new Kauffman heads????? drain back holes very small and only like 3 drain back holes in each head .and I get a little ticking when motor is warmed up did not take it out for a ride yet with new parts for fear of burning motor out but I was thinking maybe the rockers don't have enough preload ...went 3/4 turn after 0 lash I did read some place that some one needed 2 full turns after 0 lash I was going try that ......oil pressure 75psi -cold 30 psi - warm car now has 10w 30 in it with a k&N oil filter before it was 20/50 with AC DELCO PF24 ....:nonod:


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

OK, the poly lock rocker arm nuts are installed. Scorpion rocker arms installed. So you know this is all good. Oil pressure looks good, it did come down a bit which it should have -so this should be good.

I don't know about the drain back holes, but I would have to assume that Kauffman knows what they are doing, so it must be OK.

Ticking when warm would seem to mean you do need more pre-load on the lifters. It seems there are many ways to adjust the lifters, 3/4 turn, 1 turn, 2 turns, etc. *depending on manufacturers recommendations* and most are for setting the adjustment cold. This is why you will see so many adjustment recommendations. BUT, I would try what I have below and see how this works. 

I would get the engine warmed up, then adjust each rocker arm individually while it is running. Back off the poly lock nut until you hear the lifter ticking. Then slowly tighten it until the clicking stops. Give it a minute to settle and listen to see if it ticks any more. If it does, tighten just a little more until it stops. Again, wait a minute to let the lifter adjust. If no ticking, you now want to turn the poly lock 1/4 turn and lock the allen screw into position.

Now on hydraulic flat tappet lifters, they spin on the cam and you can observe the pushrod spinning -this is a good sign. If they don't spin, then they are usually adjusted too tight. You should also be able to grab the pushrods with your fingers and be able to spin them. I would think you could do this with the roller set-up as well.

If I am not mistaken, depending on the preload, this will make a difference in the amount of oil you see pumping out the rocker arm because it sets the plunger inside the lifter either deeper or shallower. I have noticed that difference myself as I adjusted them.

That is how I do my hydraulic lifters. It may get messy with oil. On stock type rocker arms they make clips that go over the push rod end and shield the oil spurt hole in the rocker arm so it doesn't get so messy. I don't know what can be used on roller rockers.

So that would be what I might try, but have no experience with the rollers.


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## mbspeed (Sep 25, 2012)

PontiacJim said:


> OK, the poly lock rocker arm nuts are installed. Scorpion rocker arms installed. So you know this is all good. Oil pressure looks good, it did come down a bit which it should have -so this should be good.
> 
> I don't know about the drain back holes, but I would have to assume that Kauffman knows what they are doing, so it must be OK.
> 
> ...


Thank you I will try your instructions .. I adjusted sb chevys years ago like that we cut slots in the top of old valve covers bolt them on keep the oily mess way down the think got old Pontiac valve covers can cut tops off atriot: thanks again


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## Bensjammin66 (May 12, 2009)

Man, really sounds like bad preload or just a few bad lifters. I also have a comp roller and mine was 3/4 turn past lash on cam base circle. Call Comp to be sure on your lifters preload setting. Its a clogged lifter oil passage on that cyclinder, bad lifter, bad lash setting or clogged push rod. It can only be so many things you know? I also have the KRE heads on my 455 but mine went to SD for porting. Man, he ground the sh*t out of the oil returns.. But i imagine KREs design is not flawed, SD just opened them up for me. One other thing, did all the oil galley plugs go back in on this fresh motor?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

To see how the oil pumps out of the lifters/lifter bores, there is a YouTube video titled "389 Pontiac On Simtester" that show the engine hooked up to a low speed drive unit with the engine open for viewing.

389 Pontiac On Simtester - YouTube is the link.


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