# 421 ci Engine in 64 GTO



## Bobs64gto (Oct 5, 2020)

Hi Members. I recently bought a beautiful ‘64 GTO. It has a 421 engine with tripower. I know it comes from a 66 Catalina. The question is how much Value does the 421 take from the original 389?
Also does the 421 ci have more HP than the original 389?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Bobs64gto said:


> Hi Members. I recently bought a beautiful ‘64 GTO. It has a 421 engine with tripower. I know it comes from a 66 Catalina. The question is how much Value does the 421 take from the original 389?
> Also does the 421 ci have more HP than the original 389?



Bob, not being a smart butt, but is this your first GTO? You don't seem to know much about Pontiacs.


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## Bobs64gto (Oct 5, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> Bob, not being a smart butt, but is this your first GTO? You don't seem to know much about Pontiacs.


Thanks for the insightful answer. Anyone out there with something meaningful to say? Thanks.


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## deanhickey (Apr 6, 2015)

Bob, on horse power a 421 cui has the potential to produce more horse power than a 389cui, but it depends on the build of the engine, mild vs wild cam, heads ect... Pontiac only used one block for their engines so a 389 can become a 421 very easily. I recently took my 400 to a 462cui. Resale depends on the buyer. Some want a matching numbers vehicle and some people feel constrained when it comes to modifications and prefer something they can put their own mark on. Post some pictures for a better idea of worth of the vehicle the more info the more accurate the price. hope this helps.


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## Bobs64gto (Oct 5, 2020)

Hi Dean. Thanks for the answer. I’ve attached photos of the car and engine.


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## Rocketman269v (Oct 5, 2020)

Bobs64gto said:


> ......The question is how much Value does the 421 take from the original 389?........Also does the 421 ci have more HP than the *original 389*?.


Obviously, not having the original engine in the car will detract from it's "resale" value; however, if you bought the car to use and enjoy, then it's value to you is how much you like it. Personally, I like the 421 Tri-power (376 hp) for sheer power. As to your second question, the factory 421 has more HP than the* original 389*. I hope this helps answer your original questions.


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## Rocketman269v (Oct 5, 2020)

I forgot to add, absolutely beautiful car!


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

Just tell people you followed the “Ringer” recipe. X2 Gorgeous car


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## deanhickey (Apr 6, 2015)

Sweet looking 64, dive it and enjoy it.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Bobs64gto said:


> Thanks for the insightful answer. Anyone out there with something meaningful to say? Thanks.


Great ignorant reply. Apparently you don't get it?


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## 1968gto421 (Mar 28, 2014)

In 1964 Car & Driver magazine did a "test" to compare the Pontiac GTO to the Ferrari GTO (first to use the GTO phrase in the car's name). As I remember back then C&D could not get a Ferrari for the test so they used stats from a previous Ferrari GTO road test. This skewed the test somewhat and Pontiac skewed it more by slipping a tri-pwer 421 (not available to the public then) into their GTO for C&D. I think there were more mods and a second GTO also. Needless to say the GTO performed awesomely and with Car & Driver's hyping of the article a legend was born. I bought themagazine back in '64 (I was 16) and have it somewhere. I believe one of the more current books on GTO's has a reprint of the C&D article in it.

Your car is a beauty and reminds me alot of the C&D GTO. Rocketman gave a good reply for you. Enjoy this '64, it's based on a legend.


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## Bobs64gto (Oct 5, 2020)

pontrc said:


> Just tell people you followed the “Ringer” recipe. X2 Gorgeous car


Thanks


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## Bobs64gto (Oct 5, 2020)

Rocketman269v said:


> I forgot to add, absolutely beautiful car!


Thank


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## Bobs64gto (Oct 5, 2020)

Thanks members for your terrific answers !!


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## Bobs64gto (Oct 5, 2020)

1968gto421 said:


> In 1964 Car & Driver magazine did a "test" to compare the Pontiac GTO to the Ferrari GTO (first to use the GTO phrase in the car's name). As I remember back then C&D could not get a Ferrari for the test so they used stats from a previous Ferrari GTO road test. This skewed the test somewhat and Pontiac skewed it more by slipping a tri-pwer 421 (not available to the public then) into their GTO for C&D. I think there were more mods and a second GTO also. Needless to say the GTO performed awesomely and with Car & Driver's hyping of the article a legend was born. I bought themagazine back in '64 (I was 16) and have it somewhere. I believe one of the more current books on GTO's has a reprint of the C&D article in it.
> 
> Your car is a beauty and reminds me alot of the C&D GTO. Rocketman gave a good reply for you. Enjoy this '64, it's based on a legend.


Thanks.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

Jim Wangers was very happy with that Car and Driver test. Besides him providing them with a ringer, C&D did their timing tests with a bicycle wheel in the back. They came up with acceleration numbers that JW said the GTO couldn't do if you dropped it off of the Empire State Building. However, it was an "independent" test so he used the results very effectively.


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## Bobs64gto (Oct 5, 2020)

Thanks for the information. I’ll read the car and driver article.


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)




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## Greg Hill (Jul 15, 2020)

I think the 421 is a period correct upgrade. Unless it’s a 100 point trailer queen restored gem the 421 might even fetch more money than the original motor. I would move that MSD box somewhere that’s not so in your face. I have a 65 convertible with a .040 over 455 and run the msd Pontiac ready to run distributor without a box.


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## 67goat (Oct 27, 2006)

Rocketman269v said:


> Obviously, not having the original engine in the car will detract from it's "resale" value; however, if you bought the car to use and enjoy, then it's value to you is how much you like it. Personally, I like the 421 Tri-power (376 hp) for sheer power. As to your second question, the factory 421 has more HP than the* original 389*. I hope this helps answer your original questions.


What he said x2. Someone built your car to enjoy and the value is in the eye of the beholder. I have a 67 with a 428 that I'd take any day of the week over one that had a matching # engine because mine is way more fun to drive. Nice car by the way - only thing I'd change is that steering wheel to an actual Pontiac wood wheel but to each their own.


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## Al T (Mar 15, 2010)

Funny that I saw this. I don’t visit the site much any more. 
I‘ve got a VERY similar car! A ‘64 GTO convertible with a ‘66 Catalina YJ tri-power engine in it. Same original colors (Starlight Black and red interior) as yours except for a white soft top. For me I like that it’s built the way the Road and Track article tested the ‘64 against the Ferrari (although I think that it had a ‘63 421 Super Duty in it). The car is a beast with the 421 in it and the M21. If you just purchased yours, enjoy it! I prefer the 421.
I’ve got a thread on the site with my restoration of it, but the photos are compromised because of the Photobucket fiasco.


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## maw2078826 (May 1, 2020)

Bob...Be very proud...you own a beautiful car that started the American "Muscle Car Era"...it's an awesome piece of automotive history...If I didn't love my '67 GTO so much I'd ask you to trade.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

Al T said:


> Funny that I saw this. I don’t visit the site much any more.
> I‘ve got a VERY similar car! A ‘64 GTO convertible with a ‘66 Catalina YJ tri-power engine in it. Same original colors (Starlight Black and red interior) as yours except for a white soft top. For me I like that it’s built the way the Road and Track article tested the ‘64 against the Ferrari (although I think that it had a ‘63 421 Super Duty in it). The car is a beast with the 421 in it and the M21. If you just purchased yours, enjoy it! I prefer the 421.
> I’ve got a thread on the site with my restoration of it, but the photos are compromised because of the Photobucket fiasco.
> View attachment 138296
> ...


It took Wangers 30 years to fess up to it being a 421. He never fessed up to it being a Super Duty, but I also believe that 's what it had early on. Later it was definitely not an SD.


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## MrHammer (Oct 31, 2020)

Bobs64gto said:


> Hi Dean. Thanks for the answer. I’ve attached photos of the car and engine.
> View attachment 138225
> View attachment 138226
> View attachment 138227
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Bobs64gto said:


> Hi Dean. Thanks for the answer. I’ve attached photos of the car and engine.
> 
> 
> 67goat said:
> ...


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## gtomike455 (May 24, 2020)

Bobs64gto said:


> Hi Dean. Thanks for the answer. I’ve attached photos of the car and engine.
> View attachment 138225
> View attachment 138226
> View attachment 138227
> ...


very nice car, i like the red interior & those mags, real nice, best of luck with it.


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## DustyOldGTO (Jun 26, 2019)

Nice car. If you open the hood, it's not immediately obvious that this is a 421 vs. a 389.
The MSD box and the upgraded master cylinder are definitely non-stock but I would consider the dual-circuit master to be an almost mandatory safety upgrade.
Enjoy it!


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## Bobs64gto (Oct 5, 2020)

67goat said:


> What he said x2. Someone built your car to enjoy and the value is in the eye of the beholder. I have a 67 with a 428 that I'd take any day of the week over one that had a matching # engine because mine is way more fun to drive. Nice car by the way - only thing I'd change is that steering wheel to an actual Pontiac wood wheel but to each their own.


Thanks for your answer. Re the steering wheel I agree. But where do you find one thats at a reasonable cost? EBay has a few at $3500 . They also have a few that need restoration.


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## Bobs64gto (Oct 5, 2020)

Greg Hill said:


> I think the 421 is a period correct upgrade. Unless it’s a 100 point trailer queen restored gem the 421 might even fetch more money than the original motor. I would move that MSD box somewhere that’s not so in your face. I have a 65 convertible with a .040 over 455 and run the msd Pontiac ready to run distributor without a box.


Good idea on the MSD. where would you suggest I move it? Can I see a photo of your engine. Thanks.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

I put the one in my racecar in the glove compartment.


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## 4rd4fun (Oct 24, 2019)

Rocketman269v said:


> I forgot to add, absolutely beautiful car!


sidenote--- I agree -absolutely beautiful car!


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## Rocketman269v (Oct 5, 2020)

Old Man Taylor said:


> I put the one in my racecar in the glove compartment.


If I'm not mistaken, MSD does NOT recommend putting the unit in the glove box, due to heat issues. On my '65 street/strip 442, I mounted it on a hinged bracket under the dash. Out of sight, yet readily accessible to change RPM pills.


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## Old Man Taylor (May 9, 2011)

The box part of my glove box is gone. I mounted mine on an open hinged plate. It's been on for 20 years with no problems.


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## Rocketman269v (Oct 5, 2020)

OMT, you did basically the same thing that I was talking about. The issue is not to enclose the box so that it can't dissipate heat.


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## Chad (Jan 15, 2016)

Bobs64gto said:


> Hi Members. I recently bought a beautiful ‘64 GTO. It has a 421 engine with tripower. I know it comes from a 66 Catalina. The question is how much Value does the 421 take from the original 389?
> Also does the 421 ci have more HP than the original 389?


Hi Bob, as you can see, there are many opinions here and all valid. For me, I'm working on my 67. Yours is beautiful. If it brings you joy, then drive and enjoy! I'm jealous!


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