# Royal Bobcat question?



## riggsjr (Apr 19, 2014)

I am going to look at a GTO next week and it has a sticker on the car that says Royal Bobcat.How would I know if this car had the Royal Bobcat package?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

You would need to see original paperwork that comes with the car and ties in with the car: vin, license, registration, etc. If the car was sold new at Royal, there is a fair chance. If there is no paperwork to validate, the owner probably stuck the sticker(S) on himself. I have several Royal Bobcat decals and stickers, in fact I bought 4 more this past weekend from Jim Wangers at a local car show. Neither of my GTO's has ever been near Royal Pontiac or a Bobcat kit.


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## riggsjr (Apr 19, 2014)

If I post the vin...Anyway to find out?


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

No. IMO if the owner is selling it as such the proof of burden is upon _him_ to validate it as a true Royal Bobcat. If he has no proof (Original window sticker, paperwork from Royal Pontiac or PHS) the car is merely a GTO with a sticker on it. If he is presenting it as such with no paperwork you should question the whole car unless it is just a screamin deal. Oh, and the Bobcat package was available over the counter and through mail order but that doesn't make it a "real" Royal Bobcat in my opinion.


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## rickm (Feb 8, 2012)

riggsjr said:


> I am going to look at a GTO next week and it has a sticker on the car that says Royal Bobcat.How would I know if this car had the Royal Bobcat package?


you would have to have an original work order from the dealership listing the package was installed on the car. the car would also come from the Pontiac plant. the emblems for '64 n '65 were placed on the pillar unless the car had a vinyl top. my "64 RB had one emblem on the rear decklid on the drivers side opposite of the gto emblem because it had a black vinyl top.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Nothing like getting the info from the guy who was there on day one! Thanks Rick, and very well stated, Alky.


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

riggsjr said:


> I am going to look at a GTO next week and it has a sticker on the car that says Royal Bobcat.How would I know if this car had the Royal Bobcat package?


The kit will include the following;



Wikipedia said:


> *Bobcat*
> Throughout the 1960s, Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac, a Pontiac car dealer in Royal Oak, Michigan, offered a special tune-up package for Pontiac 389 engines. Many were fitted to GTOs, and the components and instructions could be purchased by mail as well as installed by the dealer. The name "Bobcat" came from the improvised badges created for the modified cars, combining letters from the "Bonneville" and "Catalina" nameplates. Many of the Pontiacs made available for magazine testing were equipped with the Bobcat kit. The GTO Bobcat accelerated 0-60 mph in 4.6 seconds.
> 
> The precise components of the kit varied but generally included pieces to modify the spark advance of the distributor, limiting spark advance to 34-36° at no more than 3,000 rpm (advancing the timing at high rpm for increased power), a thinner copper head gasket to raise compression to about 11.23:1, special intake manifold gaskets to block the heat riser to the carburetor (keeping it cooler), larger carburetor jets, and locking rocker nuts to hold the hydraulic valve lifters at their maximum point of adjustment, allowing the engine to rev higher without "floating" the valves. Properly installed, the kit could add between 30 and 50 horsepower (20-40 kW), although it required high-octane superpremium gasoline of over 100 octane to avoid spark knock with the higher compression and advanced timing.
> ...


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

Is this car original? If it has been restored then any Bobcat items that were performed would have been clearly gone by the way side.

On the other hand you could do everything that was called for from the various Bobcat packages to your newly restored car and have a Bobcat car, just not a Royal Bobcat car.


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## rickm (Feb 8, 2012)

the last time I viewed a gto that was being sold as a royal bobcat with documentation, the price was $90.000. it was a '64 coupe in las vegas, Nevada.


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## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

rickm said:


> the last time I viewed a gto that was being sold as a royal bobcat with documentation, the price was $90.000. it was a '64 coupe in las vegas, Nevada.


Who would have thought in 64 that the receipt from Royal Pontiac would be worth an additional $40-$50 thousand 50 years later.


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## rickm (Feb 8, 2012)

lol. yeah. I bought mine in '78 for $600. then later sold it for $2.500. I also sold my hurst mags off the car for $75.00 ( one was bent ) and replaced them with crager super sports. at that time, hurst in pa. still had a few mags left to sell for $200. each without the beauty ring.


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## old-goat (Jul 10, 2011)

05GTO said:


> The kit will include the following;


So could a '67 (400 engine) have been a Royal Bobcat? There is one running around Utah with the Bobcat badges on the front fenders, I'm quite sure it's a real GTO, but a Bobcat clone


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

Yes a 67 400 could have the Royal Bobcat package. Royal's performance department was sold in 1969 and went to Leader Automotive which was owned by George DeLorean.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Here ya go.........add 40K to the value of your car....._*Guaranteed!!*_ - Royal Pontiac Bobcat Decals GTO Catalina Tempest | eBay


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

Those reproductions are incorrect. I think Jim Wangers sells the correct repro versions of those.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

I don't see it here - http://www.geetotiger.com/ but there is some cool stuff. I like the Philo decals.....


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

Did you know, that the Philo sticker was introduced in 1966. Does anyone know what the correct sticker would have been for the 1965 year? Pop Quiz!


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## younggto (Nov 22, 2013)

The lion head deal?


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

younggto, I will give you credit. It is actually a Bobcat head and not a lion's head. The bobcat has a crown on it's head and hense the Royal Bobcat name. Good Job!

That 65 sticker was a one year only sticker, very rare!


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## rickm (Feb 8, 2012)

in the late '70s I assumed the bobcat cars from royal were named "bobcat" because of the gto "tiger" promotions. they were named "bobcat" from combining the names of two popular Pontiac models. the Bonneville and the catalina.


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## Andrew Cabage (Jan 3, 2017)

*royal pontiac 428*



rickm said:


> you would have to have an original work order from the dealership listing the package was installed on the car. the car would also come from the Pontiac plant. the emblems for '64 n '65 were placed on the pillar unless the car had a vinyl top. my "64 RB had one emblem on the rear decklid on the drivers side opposite of the gto emblem because it had a black vinyl top.


 hi i was wondering if you can help me im building a royal bobcat clone i have the stock 428 i was wondering when they did a 428 swap did they just drop in a stock 428 or did they take the ram air parts off the 400 and put it on the 428 i been looking everywhere btw my car is a 69 convertible thanks in advance cant locate this info anywhere ...andy


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

Based on Milt Schornack's (a mechanic that worked for Royal Pontiac and did many of the Bobcat conversions) book:

In October of 1968, Royal was given a mint green 69 GTO. It had a RAM AIR IV 400, 4 speed with 3.90 gears. Pontiac told Royal that we are going to release a new version of the GTO called The Judge. Royal was asked if they could convert the car into a Judge. Pontiac provided Royal with all the parts needed for the conversion including a new paint color for the car (white and turquoise).

Engine wise Milt states they changed everything except the short block. The new Judge was going to have standard D port heads - or RAM AIR III- with 366 hp but the forged pistons and the RAM AIR IV short block assembly was left in the car and basically covered up with the 366hp RAM AIR III parts and pieces. And of course a Bobcat package was installed.

Milt also states that he experimented with the cams. He felt that the RAM AIR III cam "744" performed better than the RAM IV cam "041".

Later the heads were pulled and changed the quench area from 65cc to 62cc. He claims this made the car become "a monster".


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## Roger that (Feb 6, 2010)

Also in Milt's book he does mention a little about 428 swaps. Besides the basic Bobcat package, Milt would add .060 inch shims under the valve spring to allow the engine to wind up to almost 6000 RPMs. The heads were shaved by .025" and added Royal's thinner .028 gaskets. Milt reworked the centrifugal advance to be set as high as 35 degrees BTDC.

The original 64 GTO that had the 421 eventually blew that engine up and a 428 was installed by Royal. Milt states the new 428 installed in the 64 GTO had a 455 crank and was bored out to 472 cid. The heads were redone to accept 2.02" intakes and Milt picked a cam with a .600 lift with .310 intake and .320 exhaust.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Andrew Cabage said:


> hi i was wondering if you can help me im building a royal bobcat clone i have the stock 428 i was wondering when they did a 428 swap did they just drop in a stock 428 or did they take the ram air parts off the 400 and put it on the 428 i been looking everywhere btw my car is a 69 convertible thanks in advance cant locate this info anywhere ...andy



Depends on what the customer wanted. If it was just an upgrade, 400CI to 428CI, the stock 428CI used in the big cars retained the short block components, but work was performed on the heads, intake, carb, timing, etc.. This was the Bobcat package that could also be purchased over the counter as a kit and you had to get the heads milled - if you chose to.

However, they would also do a customer specific swap. A *1968 Ram Air GTO* customer wanted to add the 428CI to his car. Royal accommodated by slipping in the new 428 shortblock, and re-installed the RA heads (blueprinted by Royal), cam, intake, carb, and distributor. Hooker headers replaced the stock RA exhaust manifolds.

The RA engine was installed at the factory while the RA inlet package was installed at the dealership.

That said, yes they would/did sway the RA parts in this particular case. :thumbsup:


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## Enginecrafter (Nov 18, 2018)

In 1965 a friend who was stationed in Germany in the Army wrote me about GTOs. He had heard that they were "whats happening". He didn't know much about cars but knew I did. He had saved his money and wanted to order one when he got out of the service and he wanted me to go to the dealer with him to order it. He wanted the best one possible. We went to a dealer that specialized in high perf Pontiacs and I ordered everything desirable possible. Of course I ordered the 360 engine, "split" 4 speed, and a 3.90 pos. diff. I even ordered an AM/FM radio with a "reverbarator", tinted glass, metallic brakes with a power booster, and every thing else. While we were waiting for it I told him to order a set of Micky Thompson headers and 2 oval glasspacks, a pair of street slicks, a pair of Micky Thompson race slicks, and a set of ET mags. The last item ordered was a Royal Bobcat Kit. After 500 miles we installed that kit in his driveway and proceeded to "run the hell" out of that car with max RPM "power shifts". It was the ultimate for me to order that car with an unlimited budget. At the time I had a 61 Vette that I had installed a new 360 horse 327 short block in along with a 4.56 pos diff and sometimes we would swap cars for "date nights". Those were the best of times.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Enginecrafter said:


> In 1965 a friend who was stationed in Germany in the Army wrote me about GTOs. He had heard that they were "whats happening". He didn't know much about cars but knew I did. He had saved his money and wanted to order one when he got out of the service and he wanted me to go to the dealer with him to order it. He wanted the best one possible. We went to a dealer that specialized in high perf Pontiacs and I ordered everything desirable possible. Of course I ordered the 360 engine, "split" 4 speed, and a 3.90 pos. diff. I even ordered an AM/FM radio with a "reverbarator", tinted glass, metallic brakes with a power booster, and every thing else. While we were waiting for it I told him to order a set of Micky Thompson headers and 2 oval glasspacks, a pair of street slicks, a pair of Micky Thompson race slicks, and a set of ET mags. The last item ordered was a Royal Bobcat Kit. After 500 miles we installed that kit in his driveway and proceeded to "run the hell" out of that car with max RPM "power shifts". It was the ultimate for me to order that car with an unlimited budget. At the time I had a 61 Vette that I had installed a new 360 horse 327 short block in along with a 4.56 pos diff and sometimes we would swap cars for "date nights". Those were the best of times.


Neat post, Enginecrafter, thanks! My own tripower 4 speed '65 GTO has been kind of neglected for the past couple of years, as I have been having fun with a barn find '61 Corvette I found and put back on the road 3 years ago. It's a 327 with a 400 crank stroked to 383, has the original 270 HP dual quads, 4 speed, and 3.70 positraction out back. Roman Red with a Red interior and a hardtop. Total death machine compared to the much more 'refined' (and safer feeling) GTO's!!


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