# Newbie not sure what he's getting into



## JKRhino (May 29, 2012)

Long story short, my father-in-law has a 67 hard top GTO in the barn (yes really). Looks to be in pretty decent shape, no body rust, but I haven't crawled under it yet. It's got about 61k on the odometer 2 volumes of the factory service manual in the trunk. It was driven into the barn about 2 years ago and has sat there since then (w/o being started). Because I'm "the car guy" (jeeps mostly) he's asked me if I'll help him get it ready to sell (which makes me sad, but that's another story entirely). There are a few obvious problems with it.

1) some uphosltery/headliner damage, looks like normal age wear. That and I'm pretty sure a mouse got into some dash insulation/seat cushioning in the last 2 years.
2) the driver's side front tire seems to be too close to the rear of the wheel well. Kinda looks like the tire would be cut by the body (near where the 6.5 liter badge is) during a right turn
3) tail lights aren't attached ... they're in the trunk. Don't know if this means they just need to be screwed back in or if they're shot

All that said, I've got no clue if its worth even half of what he thinks it is "fixed up" or if I'm in way over my head. I'm ok with supension and trim and have some resources for engine/etc but this would definitely be a different beast from relatively modern jeeps. 

I neglected to get the whole vin, but here's the data plate... if that helps.










So I guess my question is... should I try? What info do I need to answer the question


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Really tough to have an opinion without seeing the whole car. What kind of money is he looking to get out of it?

Bear


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## JKRhino (May 29, 2012)

BearGFR said:


> Really tough to have an opinion without seeing the whole car. What kind of money is he looking to get out of it?
> 
> Bear


I think he has it in his head its worth in the 25k range. I may be wrong, and he maybe deluded.

Hopefully this w/e I can get it out into the sun (and on pavement) so I can get some pictures and crawl under it. Anything in particular other than a crapload of pictures that would be useful?


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## facn8me (Jul 30, 2011)

Looks like he's Been watching to much mecum auto auctions. From your description it's in need of a resto. RESTORED it would bring $25k... Of course it would probably cost more than that in parts and labor. A closer ball park figure (sight unseen) would be closer to 10-12k. Orginal everything may help but unless it is a highly optioned original a person can buy a VERY nice car for $25k and drive it away...


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## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

JKRhino said:


> I think he has it in his head its worth in the 25k range. I may be wrong, and he maybe deluded.
> 
> Hopefully this w/e I can get it out into the sun (and on pavement) so I can get some pictures and crawl under it. Anything in particular other than a crapload of pictures that would be useful?


As Bear, I think the best place to start would be with a "crap load of pix", as you stated.... Along with what facn8me said.....


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## JKRhino (May 29, 2012)

Ok so this is hardly a crap load of pictures, but here's what I've got.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/108901791522292780075/albums/5749920989737331089

I think the "mission" now is to just get it started so he can sell it. There's about a quarter tank of gas in it that's been sitting for 2 years, so I get to figure out what to do about that first.


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## jmt455 (Mar 26, 2012)

FWIW, the October, 2011 Old Cars Price Guide shows that a 1967 GTO hardtop in #5 condition (complete, but needing full restoration) has a market value of $6,000. I don't have a more recent issue, but I doubt that value has changed much...

I recently purchased a running 1968 GTO in apparently similar condition (but with worse paint) for $5,000.

If that car has the original engine/transmission and rear axle and if it is a well-optioned car, it might be worth more than that, but I don't see that car (as it sits) being worth anywhere near $10k.


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## tlillard23 (Nov 22, 2011)

Hell yes, do it. Full interior is cheap ($2-4000) engines and drive line are cheap if you just want to drive it. Worry about restoring it when you are old and rich.... ha


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## tlillard23 (Nov 22, 2011)

let me add... It's your father in law. He'll take what ever his DAUGHTER says is fair for the car............


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## tlillard23 (Nov 22, 2011)

and I just got screwed and paid 8k for something in similar condition, no driveline, no rust. I've been looking around CA. basket cases are about 4-6k. Something running is about 9-11k. Show cars are for old dudes with lots of cash.
and converting to a LS2 and other goodies is for dumb youg guys thinking they won't spend lots of cash..


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## JKRhino (May 29, 2012)

Oh, it does have that dual mode shifter if that matters at all.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Doesn't look too bad, but its still hard to tell from those photos. Can you get some full views of the whole car? Also some of the engine compartment?

Bear


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

rear side opera/map lights, interesting option. Get it out and clean it up, it will make a big difference. Cleaned, running and driving safely it will be the most valuable, what other options does it have? I have seen worse cars in the 8,500 range, it's worth what you can get someone to pay you for it. Or work out a deal with him and restore it yourself...


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## JKRhino (May 29, 2012)

Part of the reason (excuse?) for the lack of pictures is its up against a wall on the pass side and... well there was a tractor with a flat tire in the way on the other side. Tractor is (probably) moved by now . With any luck I'm going to try to fire it up this weekend and if I can get it under its own power into the sun I'll wash and take more pictures.

There's no excuse for me not getting engine bay shots, that was just stupidity on my part.

You'd think with this thing only being 15 minutes away I'd be able to do this more rapidly. My plan for the gas in the tank is to siphon out a chunk of it and see what it looks/smells like. If it still resembles gas, then I'm not going to worry about it. If not, then I'll siphon out the rest and "rinse" as best I can with some fresh gas, and then a gallon or so to start it with. Thoughts?


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

should be a short length of rubber fuel hose at the rear before the tank, take that off and pump it all out from there, you will probably want to take that and the front rubber lines and replace them if it has been sitting on a dirt floor for a couple of years, they will get small cracks in them and suck air in when pump is under load, cheap insurance while your under there. Put a few gallons of 93 in on top of whats left check and top fluids and fire it up.


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## JKRhino (May 29, 2012)

Instg8ter said:


> should be a short length of rubber fuel hose at the rear before the tank, take that off and pump it all out from there, you will probably want to take that and the front rubber lines and replace them if it has been sitting on a dirt floor for a couple of years, they will get small cracks in them and suck air in when pump is under load, cheap insurance while your under there. Put a few gallons of 93 in on top of whats left check and top fluids and fire it up.


It's probably asking a lot, but anyone happen to have pictures?  I haven't done a whole lot of fuel related stuff.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

the fuel pickup is located right behind the rear end case, off of it you will see a short length of rubber hose connected to the metal line that runs out and down the frame rail. disconnect it where it meets the long metal line, and drain it into an empty gas can. you can jack the rear up and let gravity drain it all out. get some fuel line of the same diameter around 6' and some stainless clamps. Replace the short line after draining and then replace the rubber lines from the firewall to the fuel pump, and from the fuel pump to the carb.

here is pic with tank removed you can see the short piece of rubber line that goes to the fuel pickup nipple when installed


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## JKRhino (May 29, 2012)

I should have asked this earlier. Any reason for the 93 octane stuff?


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

if your motor was Re-built before they started shipping us gas cut with camel piss it is probably at 10.5 to 11:1 compression which will be prone to detonation with low grade gasoline. Get used to putting at least 93 in it.


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## FlambeauHO (Nov 24, 2011)

Pics!!


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## JKRhino (May 29, 2012)

I added some more pictures to the link on the previous page. (again https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/108901791522292780075/albums/5749920989737331089).

The good news is it turned over and ran a bit. The bad news is once it ran through what we dumped straight into the carb it stopped. Long story short the fuel pump is bad (blew air through the hard lines to be sure it wasn't a clog). 

Question about this picture... why on earth is there what looks like 12 gauge house wire holding the front half of the carb open?









Also, bottom center of this picture is what looks like an aftermarket fuel filter? Does the hard line out of the fuel pump normally run all the way to the carb? This one looks like it was cut with a pair of wire cutters and then had that fuel filter added in line. 
edit : couldn't get the second image in... here's a link.
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/108901791522292780075/albums/5749920989737331089/5752175900425696322


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

choke is being held open by the wire...


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## jmt455 (Mar 26, 2012)

That in-line fuel filter has been added; originally there was a steel line from the pump to the carb.

That's a common way to try to "band-aid" a fuel tank that is contaminated.

The wire appears to be holding the primary throttle plate open. It's defeating the choke; i can only guess that someone was trying every trick they could think of to keep it running.

Are you sure the fuel pump is bad? You might not be getting any output from the pump because the tank, sending unit and/or main fuel line are plugged solid with rust, varnish or other crud.

I'd disconnect the fuel line at the tank/sending unit and at the pump. Make sure it's open and clear for its entire length.
If that line is clean and clear, confirm that the fuel tank and pick-up unit are clean and clear.

On my 68, I found a bunch of debris in the tank from the deteriorated "sock" on the end of the pick-up.


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## JKRhino (May 29, 2012)

Instg8ter said:


> choke is being held open by the wire...


Forgive the ignorance but why would one do that? Seems like it'not "
'Normal' by any stretch


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## JKRhino (May 29, 2012)

jmt455 said:


> That in-line fuel filter has been added; originally there was a steel line from the pump to the carb.
> 
> That's a common way to try to "band-aid" a fuel tank that is contaminated.
> 
> ...



Well we disconnected both ends of the fuel line and blew air through it. After hooking it all back up we got good clean gas through the line. Couldn't get anything out of the pump output though. It seemed to be leaking out of the side of the pump. I didn't check the return vent hose for blockage though.

Would keeping the choke open like that compensate for a failing fuel pump, or is that wishful thinking? Also, should I get a new hard line or keep the doctored one with the fuel filter?

Sorry I'm so full questions.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

As long as the hard line is clean, clear, and doesn't leak there's not really any reason to replace it unless 1) it's too small to feed your engine 2) it's been hit/crimped somewhere and is restricting flow. I"m talking about the long line between the pump running back to the fuel tank. The short piece of hard line between the fuel pump and the carb is easily replaced. Having additional filtration doesn't hurt anything, but one down side is that you really don't want any more "rubber" line in the system than you absolutely have to have, especially around the engine. It's eventually going to age and leak, and having that happen around a hot engine is not conducive to the life span of the car. 

Bear


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## JKRhino (May 29, 2012)

I suppose I should find out if this is the original engine or not, huh? Since I only know about 2 years of the car's history anything else I should be looking for value-wise?


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## jmt455 (Mar 26, 2012)

Pontiac didn't stamp the vehicle ID (VIN) on the engine blocks until the 1968 model year, but you should verify the correct 2-dgit "alpha" code on the block as well as the casting numbers and casting dates on the block, heads and manifolds.

Same for the transmission and the rear end.

There is LOTS of helpful info on the Wallace racing site. Scroll down the left side of the home page and use the "Code Search" functions: Wallace Racing-Drag Racing Pontiac powered Firebirds,Trans Ams and Dragsters
and on the UltimateGTO site: Pontiac GTO - The Ultimate Pontiac GTO Picture Site

The engine code is a two-letter stamped code, located on the front of the block on the passenger side, just below the head.


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## JKRhino (May 29, 2012)

Well, got it running. The new fuel pump did the trick. Also replaced the cut hard line with a new one (removing the inline fuel filter all together). I disconnected that wire that Instg8ter said was holding the choke open... though I don't know what, if anything, that did. Now the biggest notable problems are that sometimes turning the key results in nothing at all, no click, no turnover, nothing. Letting it sit for 10-15 minute will aleviate that problem, I'm guessing the starter solenoid, or whole starter is shot? Also, it doesn't like to sit at idle. It runs slower and slower and then just dies out. Would that by why the choke was held open? Any suggestions on what my next step would be with that?

Oh, did find the code stamped on the front of the block. 346557 YS. Of course, that doesn't tell me a whole lot I didn't already at least suspect.


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