# The Way It Was



## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I wanted to begin a discussion about "real world" experiences before the term "muscle car" became a cult term and before these high performance cars became on par with the gold standard. My experiences fallss between the late 1970's and early 1980's. So many web sites seem to make it out that the Pontiac engine is a delicate flower and needs an assortment of aftermarket add-ons to make it live. Not so in my experiences with factory type engines, most of which were worn out already. These cars were fast in stock form and had plenty of horsepower and torque, and handled my abuse - which was all the time. Mine were always flat to the floor either smoking tires or getting me tickets. 

My first car at 16 was a 1956 Pontiac 4-dr ht Chieftan with 316 CI and dual range hydramatic (4 speeds) for $150. I learned how to turn a wrench, do bodywork, smoke tires, and get tickets in this 20 year old car. The car was plenty fast at a time when speed limits were 55mph. This was the car that launched my need for speed. I used to pass everything with this car.

My first true "fast" car was a worn 1967 Firebird, $300. The car was all original except the 326 was replaced with a 350/Quadrajet. It had buckets and 3-sp manual trans. No problem spinning 6,000 RPM regularly on the Sun tach and smoking the bias ply tires through the non-posi rear. Went through a lot of right rear tires, street raced a lot of cars. My foot was always in this car and I use my cars, never babied them.

First GTO was a worn 1967 convertible, $800. The car was identical to the 1967 GTO advertisement found in National Geographic. It was Iris Mist (special order paint for 1967) with black interior, AM-FM radio. Factory 400 CI with dealer installed ram air hood & tub, 4-sp close ratio, and non-posi 3.90 gears with the factory upper and lower control arm braces. The ram air tub and 4 bbl had been replaced with a 1966 tri-power. The car had a quick repainted of navy blue. This car would pin you back in the seat. Gas mileage was 10 mpg and out went the 3.90's for 3.08's. Kept burning up the inexpensive Napa rebuilt clutch kits they used to sell back then so in went a Turbo 400. The old 4 core radiator sprung a leak on the former wife and she boiled it over, badly. So badly that it developed a rod knock. Out came the original 400 with 670 heads which eventually went to the scrapyard. Sold the tri-power for $35. The Muncie went to my brother which was ultimately stolen. I abused the heck out of this car, always smoking tires, out ran the police twice with it, and got a few tickets too. Replaced the timing chain as this was a given on any old Pontiac going over 60,000 miles. Parked the body in my yard. Meanwhile, I had bought another driver, a Canadian manufactured 1970 GTO Judge, Pepper Green, Saddle interior, 4-speed, 3.55 posi with 1972 400 -7K3 heads, $350. This one was in good shape and my favorite GTO. 

I will continue the Judge story later.


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## silversport (Mar 23, 2007)

the first car I remember was my Father's 1962 Catalina with a 389 and three on the tree...bought from Clarke Pontiac in Oak Park, Illinois...he had to sell it in 1966 (my Mother had developed arthritis and could no longer operate the manual transmission) and it was purchased by a young man who planned to work it over and race it...

I recall the buyer being a mechanic type and he talked with my Father about racing and even gave us kids a lot of racing decals (I was wearing my red nylon jacket with racing stripe down one side and an STP patch on the other...I was 5...)...

I remember several guys in my neighborhood and the car wars that wen on at this time...one bought a Chevelle, then the other bought an Impala...another bought a Tempest and they each seemed to one up each other until one bought a Corvette...then it seemed the buying stabilized and the tuning began...garage doors open and all these guys working and improving their rides...what a time...I was too young to drive then but I really enjoyed all the hustle and bustle going on then...it instilled a love for cars...I wish the mechanical gift had happened for me...I can watch all of you work and know what you're doing but have no talent to do so myself (beyond the minor things)...I sit in awe of those of you with the mechanical gift...but what a time...

Bill


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

*The Way It Was Part 2*

I bought the 1970 GTO Judge just over the state line in Rhode Island. It had no mufflers and was not registered. I put an old plate on it, and the wife at the time in the '67 GTO convertible followed me home to Connecticut where we lived, about a 45 minute ride. I parked it as the '67 had not yet lost its engine. When the '67 developed the rod knock, the '70 Judge was put on the road. With the 250 HP 1972 engine and 4-speed, it was no slouch. Again, tire burning performance out off it and with the front and rear sway bars of the Judge, 120 MPH on the highway was as steady as a rock. Put a Torker manifold on it and an old Thermoquad I had - "just because"- and it really woke that engine up. Gas mileage suffered and I went back to the stock manifold and Quadrajet. I drove it about 6 months and brought my first born home from the hospital in it. It got parked and I pulled the engine and trans to get the '67 GTO convertible running again.

I ran the '67 for the summer and bought a 1968 GTO, $250. It was painted light blue house paint, had rusted through in the rear quarters and trunk, and the hood was kinked. Original 400 CI with the His and Hers Turbo 400 and 3.55's. It had white interior, 8-track, and a factory hood tach. I still have the firewall data plate and vin tag. The guy sold it to me thinking the engine was blown as it had a bad skip. Found a rocker arm had slipped off, put it back on, and that worn out car would squeal tires every time on a full throttle blast when it shifted from first to second. I parked the '67 GTO again and put the '68 GTO on the road. The timing chain let go after about 3 months of hard use. I installed a new timing chain & gear set I had gotten for free. The car never would quite catch. I now suspect the set may have been earlier Pontiac with different alignment marks. It got parked and parted out. Made money on it. Meanwhile, I had bought a 1965 GTO shell,$100. No drivetrain or interior, but a perfect body and top. Originally a 389 tri-power, white body, black interior car.

I had begun to disassemble the '67 convertible to rebuild. I was at that time doing bodyshop work and had a garage at home where I could work. Sold the 1972 400 engine out of it to make a little cash flow. In my yard was now parked my 1956 Pontiac (which was out of commission due to a bad accident), 1970 GTO Judge, 1967 GTO convertible, and the recent 1968 GTO. My goal was to collect one of each year, 1965 to 1970. With the '68 down and out, I was out of a daily vehicle. Luckily, at that time, I worked 1/4 mile away at a factory. Borrowed a vehicle to go shopping. Rode my bicycle a lot! I had been bitten by the 409 bug and was in process of assembling one to go into the former wife's 1965 Chevy Impala SS convertible. I had it up and running in a couple months time. Fastest car I have ever owned. I could pull the front wheels off the ground in that convertible. The dual quads got 8-10 MPG. The stories I can tell with that car! That car would run circles around my GTO's. Many street races and tickets to boot. 

I sold the '70 Judge to a guy in Massachusetts who wanted to restore it. Bought my first set of torches with the money. Sold the '65 GTO convert. to a friend who dropped in a 400 CI and 3-speed manual, and put in an interior. He sold it to another guy who wanted to restore it. The '68 GTO was parted out and scrapped. The 409 was killing me on gas, so I bought a 1973 Mercury Capri with V-6 and parked the 409 (by that time I had 4-409 engines, 3-348's, and a pile of parts). I pulled the 409 and set it in the '67 GTO convertible using Chevelle motor mounts. Got it up and running and man did it fly. Only problem was that I could not get it to shift without sever gear grinding. I had used a Chevy to Pontiac trans adapter to mate to the 3-speed Pontiac stick I had put in it. The 1/2 spacer would not allow the clutch to make a clean disengagement. Never knew they had different length pivot balls I could have gotten to cure my woes. So it never hit the road again. I kept the '56 Pontiac and found a friends yard to park it after having to sell the home and move into an apartment. I pulled the 409 and sold the '67 convert. to a truck driver and Pontiac enthusiast in Massachusetts who was going to rebuild it. The 409 would later find a home in a 1967 Delta 88 body I bought when married to my second wife.

I also had purchased a 1957 Pontiac 2-Dr Sedan with some of the money I made selling my cars. I think that was $400. It had a 347 CI and automatic. A little rough, but good from 25 feet, I installed a factory 1956 Pontiac 285 HP intake (which I still have) using one carb and one dummy carb for looks. I added a Trans-Am hood scoop, my 1956 Pontiac sunvisor, and a gold stripe down the hood of the black car. It looked "bad", and ran pretty good. Drove that for a good 9 months before getting another car and pulling the engine and trans to go into my damaged '56. Scrapped the body as it was pretty rusty. Got tired of moving the '56 Pontiac from buddies house to buddies house as they would only store it for me a few months or so. At least they tried. The car was running and I had installed a 1955 Pontiac front clip on it. Called up a friend and told him to meet me with a jug of water. I got out my camera, he in the car, and we proceeded to smoke the tires off until I hit cord. Got some great pics of that car engulfed in tire smoke. Then I called the junk man and off it went after about 10 years of ownership, 2 of them actually on the road as a driver.

Owned a few more Pontiacs, 1975 Catalina, 1977 Lemans, 1962 4-Dr with bad engine and mint black body, 1975 Lemans, and a 1977 Can-Am that was totaled in the nose. Some were drivers while others were collected and eventually sold off or scrapped. It took about 20 years to get my life in order after 2 divorces and 4 children and could actually afford to buy a "toy" to put on the road. Found a 1968 Pontiac Lemans Sport for $900, factory 350 and 3-speeed on the floor. It is beat. About 8 years ago I installed a warmed over 1972 400 with the 7K3 heads, rebuilt the front end and rear, all the brakes, and made it a dependable driver that looked good from 25 feet. It was a screamer, but never had good oil pressure. After 8 years and 25,000 hard miles, oil pressure quit. Now it is undergoing rebuild number 2. Bigger and badder than anything I have owned in the past. Also going through the body with many mods. It won't be restored to original by any means, but it will be awesome when its done. This is my 2 year project. It has only taken me 30 years to get back to performance Pontiacs!! HaHaHa. What memories.


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## 69ra3 (Dec 29, 2012)

My first car was a 63 Ford Galaxie 500 XL with a 390, second was a 65 Impala SS with a 396, traded the Impala in on a new 69 Z28 Camaro. The Z28 got hit hard in the rear at a traffic light when it had about 5,000 miles on it, so after insurance settlement went and bought my first Pontiac. It was a new 69 GTO and I absolutely fell in love with it. Guess I got bit by the Pontiac bug early on and have had several since then and now in the process of buying a 69 GTO Ram Air III. Great cars and lot of memories for sure.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Great Posts, and thanks for sharing. JIm, you and I came of age in the same era. I will respectfully decline from sharing most of my history in the early days. Let's just say that tire changes were as frequent as new u-joints, and transmission/clutch replacement/repair was as commonplace as my visits to traffic court. My very first car? A faded out, platinum silver '66 GTO 4 speed hardtop with a black gut, console, gauges, and wooden shift knob that I traded my RD350 Yamaha for at an all night party. It had a junkyard '67 400 and a 3.55 posi, and it was a real terror. Just one ride in that car caused 3 of my friends to go out and buy their own GTO's!!


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

I have owned many cars, as evidence of my photos, but Pontiacs have always been my preference. I read many articles,books,posts,blogs, and websites that seem to make out that the Pontiac engine has several "weak" spots that need to be addressed when building up an engine. Here is my two cents worth.

The "old" Pontiacs are not as the new generation of cars are. You were doing good to get 90,000 miles out of a non-performance car engine, and even then it was probably a real oil burner. The hi-performance GTO's, Firebird's,2+2's, etc. were lucky to get 60,000 on the engine if you were one for using it. This is why so many had their original engines replaced. I always see that it is said the rods are weak. In a stock 400 engine, which was rated at 5,200 RPM and 5,400 for the Ram Air the stock rods (in my experience) are not a problem. It is only when you plan on building more HP, bigger cubes, and higher RPM's that the rods may become questionable and for security a set of aftermarket steel rods might be in order. I had a rod bearing let go once, not the rod, because the engine had a lot of hard miles on it and I added to them, so no surprise here. But, the engines are still pretty tough in stock form.

I installed a1972 400 CI with 7K3 heads rated at 250 HP with 8.2 compression in my 1967 GTO convertible. One of the best engines I experienced with plenty of power to smoke tires and pull like a bear, all on lower compression. One night I was fit to be tied mad and decided to take it out on the car. I did not care if I blew the engine, as that was part of my aim. I recall smoking the tires through first and rowing through the 4-speed with command. I watched the tach needle swing past 7,200 RPM in every of the first 3 gears, came to a panic screeching stop, and repeated. Might have done a couple doughnuts too. Did this for about 20 minutes. The engine was so hot when I finally stopped that the exhaust manifolds glowed a deep red in the darkness and I boiled the anti-freeze out of the 4 core radiator. That engine was popping and banging as the metal was cooling. After I cooled down and the engine cooled down, I added 2 1/2 gallons of water and drove home. Drove that car for months with no problems and sold the engine to another GTO guy.

One of my theories is that lower compression exerts less force/pressure on the rod bearings and they last a little longer. High compression squeeze engines put added pressure on the rods bearings and they wear out sooner - given the factory RPM's are observed. I have never heard of a rod going bad, just its bearings. Now if you spin it way past its factory RPM range, you may have a rod failure, but I have never experienced this in all the Pontiacs I have tortured. So if you are on budget, prep your stock rods using better aftermarket rod bolts and let it go at that. Cast pistons are fine as well if you don't plan on going crazy with RPM's. Never had a problem with them. And, you won't have to spend extra money on re-balancing your engine. Built my last engine, by chance a 1972 400 CI/7K3 heads, on a budget using stock rods, cast replacement pistons with a good cam & valve springs. Spun 5,700 RPM when I wanted to really lean on it and it had plenty of pull. You don't have to build a 500 HP engine to make you Pontiac go fast, the factory guys knew what they were doing.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

A couple of things: I have seen and worked on a TON of Pontiac engines with over 150,000 miles on the clock that still ran well, as long as the timing chain had been serviced in the first 50-70k miles. My '67 GTO had 173,000 miles on it when I tore it down for its first rebuild, and it didn't actually need a rebuild. It was all in spec except for burnt exhaust valves. These were high nickel blocks, and well made, and have and do go the distance if maintained. I have seen Pontiac rods break in half. A friend had a '67 GTO and that is what happened. Absolutely destroyed the engine. My take is this: Pontiacs are able to rev much easier and higher than is good for them. They can wind up there like a small block Chevy, but can't hold together at those RPMS. So, rev-limiters and aftermarket rods are a good idea.


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## Hot_Rod (Feb 10, 2011)

I was born in the wrong ERA! Lol... My 1st car was an '87 GTA Trans Am. At age 19. (26 now)

Thats Probably why I have a SBC in my car. Cause I havent really got to experience a true fine tuned pontiac engine yet. Until I got my Lemans I didnt really know there was a huge difference. The 326 that was in it left a bad taste in my mouth cause it leaked everything it could leak. Didnt run well either but come to find out it was a number of things wrong as far as setup. Relatively stock 326 with a single plane intake on it and the carb wasnt opening the 4bbl all the way.

Hoping to someday build a mild 455. See what happens.


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## bondobill (Oct 24, 2011)

Thanks Pontiacjim for starting this thread
Brings back a lot of memories of my younger days.
My dad moved our family to a small town in the N.W. corner of Wa. state in 1954. His first job out here was working as a painter for a Pontiac, Buick dealership. I remember him bringing home die cast model cars for the upcoming new model year, he would give one to each of us boys.
I got a slide somewhere of his 1957 yellow and white Pontiac 2 door hardtop, it was a pretty car, lots of stainless and chrome.
In around 1958 he quit working for the dealership and opened a body shop in a old Richfield station adjacent to the Pontiac dealership. I can remember him working on a lot of Pontiacs in those early days.
I started working at his shop sometime in the early 60s. After school instead of getting on the bus , I would walk the couple of blocks to his shop, seemed like he always had something that needed wet sanding.
When a truck load of new Pontiacs showed up the truck would park right out in front of my dads shop. I can still remember, like it was yesterday, the day the dealership received their first GTO. It was bright red 2 door hard top , created quit a stir in our small town. Back then everyone in town knew if someone had a new car coming in. 


Bill


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

My first street ride was a Honda 550 super sport.
I wasn't allowed to get a car till after I was 18 and out of the house.
My first car was a `67 VW bug.
My first ride in a GTO was a friend of my dad who had a `70 GTO and he had a spare engine in the trunk. I remember him doing a hole shot and from the back seat I could only see sky!! I knew I had to have one one day.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Today's remembrance is of "Posi-traction", or the limited slip rear end. I saw a U-tube video of a GTO burn out and one of the comments was, "only one tire was smoking, I thought all GTO's had posi-traction." No, most of them did not. Of the 3 GTO's I drove, none had posi, not even my 3.90 factory geared '67. Posi was an option that most GTO's did not have. I suspect like today's cars, you bought off the dealer lot what they had in stock, and extra options meant added price, and special orders took more time to deliver.

Here are a few road tests found in magazines of the day. Of the 1966 GTO with powerglide/3.23 gearing: "Such is the cars tremendous power that the back end can be popped loose almost anywhere. Despite the limited slip diff, the car fishtailed right up to 80 and 90 mph under full acceleration." Of a 1968 Ram Air GTO with 4 sp/3.90 posi gearing: "Driving the GTO on wet roads with this deep geared axle was thrilling. Rear tire breakaway could be provoked by a slight jab at the accelerator, sending the car into a minor skid that usually used up more than one lane of space." And how about a Royal Pontiac 428 CI in a 1968 GTO with auto/3.55 posi gearing: "In the hands of an inexperienced or irresponsible driver the 428 GTO would be as dangerous as a basket of hair-trigger hand grenades. Too much throttle at the wrong time will spin the car, or send it rocketing off the road into the farmer's field. You can light up the cars' tires like it was an AA-fueler anytime the notion seizes your fancy."

I love these road test articles as they are fairly true. They also speak of handling that was not the best and understeer. Couple the torque the Pontiac engine produces with just adequate handling, and it does not take long to get into trouble, especially with a POSI rear axle. I can speak from experience as I have driven other cars with posi. If you have the torque of a Pontiac engine, and the road is anything less than dry, it takes very little to get your car out of control - and this was based on stock factory horsepower and not those of us who build more HP on that. Many "muscle cars" of the day found themselves in the "farmer's field", wrapped around a tree or telephone pole, rolled over, or simply crashed. I used to frequent the junk yards to pic parts off cars to resell at swap meets. Saw many a "muscle car" destroyed from just an incident. Some I figured the drivers were OK, others were mangled where you wondered if they lived. 

And this is not entirely limited to a car having a posi rear end, I can attest to GTO's and other motorhead cars I owned that given enough horsepower/torque in less than ideal road conditions, you may find yourself sideways. It was always cool when I planned to do it and no other cars were around. Not so cool when I was just standing on the gas when the direction of the car took on a mind of its own! I'm talking "pucker factor 10" here. Many first time Pontiac owners today are not aware of the trouble you can get into real quick with simply the stock factory torque of a Pontiac -until you experience first hand at a time your wish you had not. The old muscle cars took some skill, and sometimes luck, to keep you out of danger or endangering others. Now I am not writing this to scare anyone or sound like a "goody two-shoes", because I still like to smoke tires and go sideways, but even when I know what I want to do it doesn't take a second for the car to do what it wants to do - so just be aware and expect the unexpected from your car. 

So, my opinion on a posi rear is that they are great for straight line acceleration on a dry road. Otherwise, I like a single track for the everyday driver - you can light up a tire and it is much more controllable(typically). If you have one, be cautious on icy, snowy, wet, damp, sandy, bumpy, and leaf covered stretches of road and don't nail the gas when in a curve. My experience with a posi rear is that it always kicks out to the right on you. If this happens at a bad time, your pride and joy may become a parts donor like so many other "muscle cars" I have seen over the years. Upgrading your suspension, brakes, and tires, is the smart way to go if you gotta have the posi.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Great post. I've had 9 GTO's over the years. 6 of them came with "safe-t-track" limited slip, and 3 of them didn't. The ones that didn't were automatic cars, the ones that did were 4 speed cars. I have spun out more than once in the wild days of my youth. Not hard to do.


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## Groundczero (Nov 28, 2012)

Interesting read, but no one put up quarter mile times, what are you guys thinking is fast, I know in High school (late 90's) if you were in the 13's you were moving, collage it was 12’s. Now better be running mid low 11 or 10, keep in mind these are street cars driven to track, on DR’s not even slicks.


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## ppurfield001 (Jan 21, 2008)

Bought my first GTO (a 1967 hardtop) in 1971. My Mom said it was too dangerous for a 20-year old but my Dad said "let him have a little fun." Mariner Turquoise with a white painted top. Once clocked at 105 MPH in upstate NY returning to college going up a hill. The cop took pity on me and gave me a ticket for 24 MPH over the 70 MPH sipped limit (I.e., no reckless driving ticket in addition to speeding ticket). Learned to love American muscle with that car..........


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Groundczero said:


> Interesting read, but no one put up quarter mile times, what are you guys thinking is fast, I know in High school (late 90's) if you were in the 13's you were moving, collage it was 12’s. Now better be running mid low 11 or 10, keep in mind these are street cars driven to track, on DR’s not even slicks.


1964 GTO - Car & Driver: 1/4 mile - [email protected] tri-power 4sp/3.90 gear Note: engine prepped by Royal Pontiac
1964 GTO - Car Life: 1/4 mile - [email protected] tri-power 4sp/3.23 gear
1965 GTO - Car Life: 1/4 mile - [email protected] tri-power 4sp/3.90 posi gear
1966 GTO - Autocar: 1/4 mile - [email protected] tri-power 2sp auto/3.55 posi
1967 GTO - Car Life: 1/4 mile - [email protected] 4bbl 4sp/4.33 posi gear Note: this was a Ram Air car
1968 GTO 428CI - Car & Driver: 1/4 mile - [email protected] 4bbl TH400/3.55 posi gear Note: engine swap/prepped by Royal Pontiac
1968 GTO - Car Life: 1/4 mile - [email protected] 4bbl 4sp/3.90 posi gear Note: this was a Ram Air car
1970 GTO Judge - Road Test - 1/4 mile [email protected] 4bbl 4sp/3.55 posi gear Note: this was with the standard Ram Air III engine
1970 GTO 455CI - Car & Driver - 1/4 mile [email protected] 4bbl 4sp/3.31 non posi gear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

The 1964 GTO in the Car & Driver test was powered by a 421 engine. It was one of two "Ringer" cars used in several high profile tests of the day. Both were fitted with 421" engines and passed off as 389's.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

geeteeohguy said:


> The 1964 GTO in the Car & Driver test was powered by a 421 engine. It was one of two "Ringer" cars used in several high profile tests of the day. Both were fitted with 421" engines and passed off as 389's.


I think I recall hearing about that, but did not know what car/year. The 1/4 mile time seemed to be way better than what I posted for most "stock" 1/4 mile times. Even with these "stocK" time figures, all I knew was by the seat of my pants, and if all I had was a car capable of mid 14's, it still felt damn fast and beat a lot of other "fast" cars of the day! I think it really boils down to not 1/4 times from a standing stop, but passing speeds and the "rolling race" when you met another contender. I guess its all about perception and the thrill of experience. GTO-Gas Tires & Oil as we used to say.


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## Groundczero (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok so they were fast compared to what ever else was out on the street, but not realy fast. But I would not brag about a roll race that is what we laugh at all the ricers for doing.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I respectfully disagree, Groundczero. They _WERE_ really fast, at the time. Not compared to today's monster cars, but back then, pretty well untouchable. And I'm talking from the time they were new until the early '90's, when muscle re-appeared. I remember driving a brand new 1987 Buick Grand National and being impressed that it felt as fast/quick as my '65 GTO. A 14 second car WAS a fast car back then, and a 12 or 13 second car was a real street sweeper. I had a '66 GTO that did mid 13's back then, and that car was a terror.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

And there was always potential there for more. My 69 GTO today, at 4000 lbs running weight running the engine it was born with, TH400, 3.50 rear gears is an honest 11-second street car on drag radials and 93 octane pump gas. That's running in 'drive' with the upshifts happening around 4900 rpm. Yes, I've "enhanced" the engine with some modern parts but it's still naturally aspirated, running a Quadrajet, no bottle, nothing super-fancy.

Just this morning I was on my way to a doctor appointment, sitting at a traffic light just prior to the on ramp. In my mirror I saw a guy in a black late model Camaro cross 3 lanes of traffic just so he could get behind me. I admit, once the light turned and I was about halfway down the on ramp, I took it to about half-throttle and watched him get really small, really quickly. I back out of it around 85 and let it fall back down to the limit. He pulled up beside me and wanted to play, but I didn't take the bait - there was no need - so he pulled away. It was funny because I'm sure he was thinking he'd just "showed me", when the reality was that I knew he just wasn't worth the effort. 

Bear


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## Groundczero (Nov 28, 2012)

Geeteeohguy I think we are saying the same thing for the time they were fast. By the late 90's and todays standards they are not. However the cars going to the track even back in the day they were not since even by PontiacJim's post the fast cars on his list were not really stock.
1964 GTO - Car & Driver: 1/4 mile - [email protected] tri-power 4sp/3.90 gear *Note: engine prepped by Royal Pontiac*
Bear your ride sounds nice and I would love to see it but again you even admit using modern parts in the build how much benefit of newer tech is letting you hit those numbers? Not saying do not use it I am completely on board using any new tech it boost power and effeciency.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

I think Bear's a new charter member of the Teddy Roosevelt Club: "Speak softly and carry a big stick."  "The Beast" is a pretty big stick, IMO!!! Congrats on your restraint and discretion, sir. No need to enter a knife fight with a bazooka....


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Groundczero said:


> Bear your ride sounds nice and I would love to see it but again you even admit using modern parts in the build how much benefit of newer tech is letting you hit those numbers?


None, at least not in the sense that I think you might be thinking of "newer tech". The enhancements I've made are through the use of parts that weren't available at any reasonable cost for Pontiacs 'back in the day' - mainly a stroker crank, forged H-beam rods, lightweight small-skirt forged pistons. None of that is hardly "new technology". I'm also running a solid roller cam and aluminum heads. The heads aren't really by choice though, orignally I was running some genuine 69 round port Ram Air IV's but one of them developed a crack and so far I've not had any luck finding someone who can reliably repair it, so in the mean time I'm running round port Edelbrocks. Realistically they're probably worth about another 30 hp over the Ram Air IV's. It's pretty much an 'old school' engine, actually.

Bear


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## Groundczero (Nov 28, 2012)

Bear, I see where you are comming from, I however do feel the tech is not just in stuff like fuel injection, but in the ability of the companies to bring cost down to the consumer through better process and use of materials, by your logic other then the fuel injection, and stock 6 bolt main on the ls 408 in my mustang the stroker crank, forged pistons, and rods are all old tech, but if it was even 20 years ago the cost of an engine like that would be very cost prohibited.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

A cam-in-block, pushrod V8 is a true dinosaur. Nothing high tech about it at all. 'Nuff said. Comparing a 40-50 year old vintage Pontiac to something new is apples and oranges, and misses the point. The old cars are visceral...they breath fire and come alive like a steam engine or an oil-pull single cylinder tractor from the 1910's....primitive, rough, dangerous, and exiting. The new 'Vette will smoke a '67 427 'Vette in every arena, and do it with its coat and tie on. But the '67 Vette has a soul and spirit that the new stuff can't touch. People either "get it" or they don't.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

:agree Very well said. That's the same reason I really dig WWII piston driven airplanes while the jets don't really do anything for me - even the older ones.

One of my 'bucket list' items is to take a ride in a P-51.

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Bear, I hear you. A couple of years ago at the Bakersfield drag races, a P-51 buzzed us in the stands at speed....NOBODY was watching the cars on the track! I was at an airshow a while back, and a spectator (young guy in his late 30's) showed up, flying his own plane....a P-47!!! He walked around, checked out the show, then fired it up and took off and flew home. What a lucky SOB....Jet's leave me cold as well. The sound of a Big Merlin or Allison or Pratt&Whitney firing up and winding up is somehthing that speaks to you!!! Back in the '80's, I gave an old friend I hadn't seen for years a ride to the airport....He's a music professor at a college, not a car guy, but he's into airplanes....Well, I fired up the '65 and he couldn't believe it...he shouted "Man, this thing sounds like a DC-7!!"


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Oh yeah.... There are P-51 rides available locally at a place called the Cavenaugh Flight Musem. VERY pricey though so I've got to save my pennies. Another airplane they have there that speaks to me is the Douglas A26 Invader. It was the fastest twin piston engine bomber in WWII, maybe the fastest ever. I believe you can get rides in that one too. Here's a nice sample 






Our Dallas Area Pontiac Association (dapa.org) is considering holding our big annual show this year at the Cavenaugh Museum. I'm hoping that happens.

Bear


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

geeteeohguy said:


> A cam-in-block, pushrod V8 is a true dinosaur. Nothing high tech about it at all. 'Nuff said. Comparing a 40-50 year old vintage Pontiac to something new is apples and oranges, and misses the point. The old cars are visceral...they breath fire and come alive like a steam engine or an oil-pull single cylinder tractor from the 1910's....primitive, rough, dangerous, and exiting. The new 'Vette will smoke a '67 427 'Vette in every arena, and do it with its coat and tie on. But the '67 Vette has a soul and spirit that the new stuff can't touch. People either "get it" or they don't.


Most of the 1/4 mile times tested were of course using the old bias ply type tires. With the exception of the 1964 "ringer" with a 421 CI, they all are fairly close in 1/4 mile times. Adding radials, or slicks, suspension mods, plus some engine fine tuning would certainly give better numbers. Got a test of a 1958 Bonneville that had the 395A engine, 370 CI/ three dueces, 3 sp on the column, 3.23 non-posi gears, 3946 lbs without driver. It was rated as 330 HP @ 5200 RPM. The engine was taken down and blueprinted, not modified with any changes of the factory pieces. The car did the flying mile @ 146 MPH in Daytona. The same car went to the drags, and just as was with the Blue Streak high speed rubber, turned a 15.23 @ 91.83 spinning tires off the line - faster than the fuelie Corvettes of the time turning 15.6's @92-95 MPH. So speed is a relative term to the era/times the cars were built.

So what you have pointed out would seem to be true, the GTO's WERE fast. And you get it, these "old" cars did come "alive", much like a steam engine or piston powered WWII aircraft. You really had to drive a car of high-performance as they could be a hand full to control. No doubt todays fast cars are indeed a 100% improvement and many could zip past the old GTO's, but if you can't understand the character these cars have, then you just don't get it.

We have a great annual WWII fly-in outside of Charlotte in Monroe, NC. P-51's, PBY, B-25's, Corsairs, a race P-47, etc.. This year they had 8 Japanese planes from the Movie Tora!Tora!Tora! do a mock attack of the runway, complete with pyrotechnics. A 4-hour show for $15. Great show. Nothing like the sound of a radial just coming to life.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

VERY well said, Jim, and right on the money. It's one thing keeping a manual steering, manual brake, manual transmission, 360 HP car on the road and pointed straight and entirely another to point an air condtioned, automatic everything, traction controlled, air bag equipped, antilock braked, cup-holdered ,GPS enhanced 400 HP car down the road. One takes heart, soul, and skill, and the other takes a fat checkbook.


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## Groundczero (Nov 28, 2012)

geeteeohguy said:


> A cam-in-block, pushrod V8 is a true dinosaur. Nothing high tech about it at all. 'Nuff said. Comparing a 40-50 year old vintage Pontiac to something new is apples and oranges, and misses the point. The old cars are visceral...they breath fire and come alive like a steam engine or an oil-pull single cylinder tractor from the 1910's....primitive, rough, dangerous, and exiting. The new 'Vette will smoke a '67 427 'Vette in every arena, and do it with its coat and tie on. But the '67 Vette has a soul and spirit that the new stuff can't touch. People either "get it" or they don't.


Seriously a LS is still a cam-in-block pushrod V8, GM originally was even criticized for doing that after the LT-5, but history has proven GM right. I get the old cars have personality that is why my newest car is an 85 mustang I have a 1977 corvette since I was 15, but the soul of that car did not leave it when I took a LS-6 from a 02 z06 and stuck it in the engine bay with a carb and a TKO-600 behind it, it made the car more fun to drive on a daily basis, and when this car had a H/C/I 350 with a 100 shot on it with a T-10 it was not that hard to keep pointed straight you just needed to know how to drive.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Groundczero said:


> ...I have a 1977 corvette since I was 15, but the soul of that car did not leave it when I took a LS-6 from a 02 z06 and stuck it in the engine bay with a carb and a TKO-600 behind it...


Of course not. How could it lose what it never had? 

(I'm just yanking your chain. Folks 'round here know I'm not exactly the biggest bow tie fan in the world... :cheers)

Bear


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

geeteeohguy said:


> VERY well said, Jim, and right on the money. It's one thing keeping a manual steering, manual brake, manual transmission, 360 HP car on the road and pointed straight and entirely another to point an air condtioned, automatic everything, traction controlled, air bag equipped, antilock braked, cup-holdered ,GPS enhanced 400 HP car down the road. One takes heart, soul, and skill, and the other takes a fat checkbook.


Yep, apples & oranges. Even if I had a fat checkbook, I don't know as I would buy any of the new. Just as I did when I was 20, I still cannot resist the opportunity to pop the clutch, squawk the tires, put the front end nose high (with the 90-10 front shocks), and wind every gear through my 3" exhaust pipes. My former girlfriend had never gone over 100 MPH, she had once done 90. As I swung onto the highway, I opened up the 400 CI, rowed through 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, then hit my brakes to slow down. I asked her, so how did it feel? She said what? I said I just took you to 105 MPH. She said "no way", that quick? Yep. She said "Holy sh*t". From that point on, all I had to do was say "let's take out the Lemans" and she was already in the passenger seat-all smiles-knowing we were going to wear down some tires.


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