# Gas tank cage removal



## enjracing (Jun 7, 2006)

is that damn gas tank protector a must? most cars don't have any massive cage in front of their tank, so why do we? what does it weigh and is it safe to remove it? thanks.


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## Russ2005 (Nov 24, 2005)

enj, 

Most cars don't have their gas tank sitting body high in the trunk only separated by the back seat. That is a modification to pass US safety standards, can you say 1970's Pintos? I wouldn't touch it. that trunk will crumple in a rear end collision and I suspect you need that cage. Aftermarket titanium fiber gas cage replacement anyone?


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## GTO_400 (Jul 7, 2005)

:agree Ya should never remove a safty device to save weight. How much could the thing weigh anyway?


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## pbmaniac2000 (Feb 13, 2006)

Ok, so the gas tank sits in the trunk right?


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## GTO_400 (Jul 7, 2005)

Right, about 3-4 inches behind the back seat, Right under the rear shelf speakers


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## enjracing (Jun 7, 2006)

it weights 25lbs!!!!! a hit hard enough to push the back of the car in that far is not going to be stopped by that silly cage. plus, if the tank was ruptured, it would leak fuel, not blow up like in the movies! there is also a sheet of thin metal that blocks the tank from the back seats. all cars have a tank that is in a potantially dangerous place if hit in a certain angle or severity. mustangs tanks are right out under the rear bumper with nothing more than a plastic cover over them.


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## socal gto (Mar 10, 2006)

If you want to move the tank under the car like it was supposed to be there is a place in orange, ca that will do this for a price. I just saw the car last night at irwindale dragstrip and I looked really weird to see a trunk on our cars. If you want to see their twin turbo goat go to teamscss.com. The guy also told me that they are working on producing the gauge clusters that you can order of jhp.


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## chrisGTO (Nov 26, 2005)

retarded, and not worth the time to remove. Whats 25lbs matter in a street car? Even if you race your car, it doesnt matter, unless you shave alot more weight than that, it's not gonna matter at all, c'mon, people are getting silly. Wanna save weight? go on a diet, and dont give fat chics rides. To easy. And about the trunk space, the car was bought knowing how big the trunk was, right?


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## TexasAggie (Mar 2, 2005)

chrisGTO said:


> retarded, and not worth the time to remove. Whats 25lbs matter in a street car? Even if you race your car, it doesnt matter, unless you shave alot more weight than that, it's not gonna matter at all, c'mon, people are getting silly. Wanna save weight? go on a diet, and dont give fat chics rides.


He's right.:cool


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## enjracing (Jun 7, 2006)

your wrong guy. 25 lbs is a lot of weight and especially for a street car. and yes, i know what i am talking about. i raced professionally for 10 years all over the world. www.enjracing.com if you remove some of these silly things and add up all the weight (about 100lbs), it is pretty noticable.


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## kwiktsi (Apr 5, 2006)

enjracing said:


> your wrong guy. 25 lbs is a lot of weight and especially for a street car. and yes, i know what i am talking about. i raced professionally for 10 years all over the world. www.enjracing.com if you remove some of these silly things and add up all the weight (about 100lbs), it is pretty noticable.



Like I said in the other thread- not that they are bad people- they are all pretty cool, but this is the wrong forum for this stuff- they just aren't "into" it like that.

You are 100% correct- every little bit does add up. If you go by the "every 100# is 1/10", it adds up quick. Just not something every one cares about- especially here, they appreciate the car for being comfortable and fast. I personally was disappointed in it's performance, but for being a stock car for $30k with a warranty and all, it isn't bad at all and I'll take care of the "not fast enough" part .

Joe


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## enjracing (Jun 7, 2006)

i agree with you kwiktsi. i am not stating that these things "need" to be removed, i am just saying that YES, they do make a small difference. maybe some people wouldn't even notice though. i was surprised to hear that you were not happy with the performance of the GTO? for the money and for the weight, it's quite impressive. anything that does 0-60 in the mid 4's for around 30 grand is impressive!


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## socal gto (Mar 10, 2006)

I am not saying that I would do it or that the trunk was too small, but I heard a question about this kind of thing and saw that it could be done and look nice.


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## kwiktsi (Apr 5, 2006)

enjracing said:


> i agree with you kwiktsi. i am not stating that these things "need" to be removed, i am just saying that YES, they do make a small difference. maybe some people wouldn't even notice though. i was surprised to hear that you were not happy with the performance of the GTO? for the money and for the weight, it's quite impressive. anything that does 0-60 in the mid 4's for around 30 grand is impressive!



As for performance- like I said, "for a $30k car brand new with a warranty", it is pretty impressive. But considering I get walked almost daily by friends (the worst was a buddys Talon- he flat out destroyed me and second worse was a modified Turbo VW Golf on the highway- that was embarrassing lol) and from the modified vehicles of my past, it feels slow . Almost every car I have owned has been modded and I have only bought 5 "performance" cars new- a 99 Z28, 01 Eclipse GT (if that is considered "performance") 03 Mustang GT convert., 03 Mazdaspeed Protege turbo and the 05 GTO. The Camaro and Eclipse were just daily drivers at the time as I had other built cars as play toys (mainly a 500+ hp talon ). The Stang, I did headers and exhaust on. The Protege, I did full exhaust (custom as I was one of the first ones to mod that car), one of my boost controllers (www.joepmbc.com) and just a bunch of other "experimental" mods on since I was using it as a test bed for my parts. Out of all of them, the 99 Z28 was closest to the GTO stock- and the Protege with some mods was a close second- but it was mostly power to weight since that car did 263 to the wheels. So to sum up this novel- compared to "stock" cars I have had in the past, yes it is quick, but compared to my other cars and cars in our "group"- it is a dog. I am waiting on my Procharger to get here though, hopefully that helps .
Joe


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

kwiktsi said:


> *compared to cars in our "group"- it is a dog.*


Cars in our group? What cars are you talking about? Because I haven't seen anything stock in the $30-$35,000 range that outperforms the GTO to where it feels like a dog... to me. Even with the few mods I have now I have easily beaten down other "slightly" modded cars. For example a 350Z with a supercharger attempted to run me on the freeway about a month ago. By the time I hit 120 he was no less than 3 car lengths behind. And the sad thing is that he jumped me. What a joke! I've also had cars (Vettes, Camaros) with similar mods as my goat and I know for sure that none were faster than the goat. Maybe if the goat wasn't so refined and comfortable, it would probably FEEL a little bit quicker too. Me personally, I think a sports car should have a little bit stiffer ride and more responsive steering than our goats have. But hey, it is what it is and I really can't complain. Once I get off my lazy butt and order my Maggie, I really won't complain.


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## enjracing (Jun 7, 2006)

guys..........i know why the goat FEELS slow. it is so damn heavy and like the other guy said, it is very refined compared to a typical american sportscar. it is deceptively fast. it doesn't feel as fast as my 03 mach 1, but it will **** all over it. it is much faster than it feels. trust me on this. it's just an illusion. when i first test drove it i felt the same way, but then i realized why.


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## kwiktsi (Apr 5, 2006)

6QTS- I was not comparing it to "stock" cars, but just cars in my little group of friends here. Most modded. I was just comparing it to cars in our group and cars I have owned and it is slow in comparison- not saying it is slow for stock, just a bit dissapointing to me for a 400 hp car- but the weight certainly isn't helping there!!! Everyone I speak with who drove one says the same thing "I don't know where they get 400 hp from, it certainly doesn't feel it, but it is a nice car to drive". Again, not saying it is slow by any means, just if you got to see how bad my friends talon destroyed it from a 60mph roll on (let's not even talk about out of the hole- it was ugly  ), you would see what I meant. I have my Procharger on it's way if this order doesn't get screwed up too (let's just say I ordered a magnacharger over a month ago and never got it, so I cancelled it and switched to a procharger and still haven't heard back!!!). Hopefully with the procharger on it, it will run a bit more like I would like it to, but from speaking with others- it is still not all that impressive- more than likely due to the weight!! Most of my cars have all been in the low 11's-high 10's at upper 120's in full street trim, it will take a lot to get this car to run like that unfortunately .

ENJ- Oh yeah, it will destroy a Mach- been there . Headers, exhaust and gears and it wasn't funny how hard the GTO pulled once it's fat ass got going!!! It feels slow since it doesn't have that bottom end Grunt- which is odd since it makes so much torque down low! My father in law drove it, came back and tossed me the keys "keep it, I hate it- it has no bottom end". Funny, my wifes Crossfire is "snappier" down low than this car!!
Joe


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

kwiktsi said:


> 6QTS- I was not comparing it to "stock" cars, but just cars in my little group of friends here. Most modded. I was just comparing it to cars in our group and cars I have owned and it is slow in comparison- not saying it is slow for stock, just a bit dissapointing to me for a 400 hp car- but the weight certainly isn't helping there!!! Everyone I speak with who drove one says the same thing "I don't know where they get 400 hp from, it certainly doesn't feel it, but it is a nice car to drive". Again, not saying it is slow by any means, just if you got to see how bad my friends talon destroyed it from a 60mph roll on (let's not even talk about out of the hole- it was ugly  ), you would see what I meant. I have my Procharger on it's way if this order doesn't get screwed up too (let's just say I ordered a magnacharger over a month ago and never got it, so I cancelled it and switched to a procharger and still haven't heard back!!!). Hopefully with the procharger on it, it will run a bit more like I would like it to, but from speaking with others- it is still not all that impressive- more than likely due to the weight!! Most of my cars have all been in the low 11's-high 10's at upper 120's in full street trim, it will take a lot to get this car to run like that unfortunately .
> 
> ENJ- Oh yeah, it will destroy a Mach- been there . Headers, exhaust and gears and it wasn't funny how hard the GTO pulled once it's fat ass got going!!! It feels slow since it doesn't have that bottom end Grunt- which is odd since it makes so much torque down low! My father in law drove it, came back and tossed me the keys "keep it, I hate it- it has no bottom end". Funny, my wifes Crossfire is "snappier" down low than this car!!
> Joe


If you're used to modded rides I can understand where you're coming from :cheers .


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## kwiktsi (Apr 5, 2006)

Yeah, but the Goat is very nice for "stock"- hence the reason I bought one- where else can you get 400 hp, smooth ride, decent handling and brakes and a decent back seat (not to mention the "oooh- it has BUCKETS in the back too! comments ) for $30k? I do kick myself sometimes for not getting a Used C5 or C6, but we had my wifes Crossfire and my standard cab Ram 1500 hemi- so with basically two 2 seaters, the Vette wasn't a very practical choice. Just jealous when I see my friends worked vettes, they are SWEET rides!!!
Joe


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## enjracing (Jun 7, 2006)

kwiktsi...........he threw the keys back at you after driving the Goat or the Mach 1?


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## kwiktsi (Apr 5, 2006)

enjracing said:


> kwiktsi...........he threw the keys back at you after driving the Goat or the Mach 1?



The Goat- he hated it's lack of bottom end power, which to be honest- is pretty soft for a car that they claim makes so much down low, but again- the weight isn't helping things. It just feels dead until 3500-4000. Could be just that we are used to more too, but I just expected a lot more out of the car based on the horsepower/torque numbers. I have spoken with a couple ECU tuners who say a lot of the bottom end issuse are in the tune. It does not let it go WOT immediately, it kind of rolls into the throttle even though you floor it from what I was told (torque management). I'll see if the flash with the blower addresses this Monday when I call back, I keep forgetting to ask. If not, I will be setting the car up for a dyno tune at my cousins shop shortly after the install.

The Mach was a car that I destroyed at a light last week .
Joe


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## enjracing (Jun 7, 2006)

i think it is an individual thing. i spent the last two years of my pro racing career driving F-3000 cars that make 450 HP, but only weight 1,400 lbs!!!!! i have been spoiled, but even though, i think it's about expectations. even with my racing experiences, i still was impressed with the goat's torque for the weight. your right though, it doesn't feel as if it gives WOT until a bit after you floor it. probably to aid in wheel spin?


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## kwiktsi (Apr 5, 2006)

From what one ECU tuner told me- "it has wheel spin and anti-wheel hop parameters built into it" and if he tunes them both out, the cars can get squirrely- so it must make a difference because I really have to try to spin the tires on mine. It will only spin with a clutch dump. I have never had it break loose from a roll except on wet pavement. My 98 Z28 would ignite the tires from a 1st gear roll on. Maybe the IRS is helping it hook better, but I still expected more pull down low. Still love the car though .
Joe


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## enjracing (Jun 7, 2006)

cool. i want it as squirly as possible! what is a tune worth in HP on a stock GTO?


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

enjracing said:


> cool. i want it as squirly as possible! what is a tune worth in HP on a stock GTO?


When I got my tune, 15 additional rwhp was freed up. My tuner told me that more could have been pulled out but detonation could arise. So I kept the tune conservative. 

As far as this torque thing maybe some have dud GTOs. Because I have no problem breaking my tires loose. And like you said I think this whole thing comes down to the driver. Bottom line. If some knew how to drive maybe they'll be able to extract the potential that these cars have. So to you guys who can't seem to spin the tires on a 400hp/400tq car, don't get mods, learn how to drive.


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## kwiktsi (Apr 5, 2006)

I hope you're not talking to me??? I have no problems "spinning the tires" if that were my sole goal- the car has no balls to break them loose from a 1st gear roll on at ANY RPM without a slip of the clutch- which seems weak for a 400/400 car. Lol- "learn how to drive"- funny thing to say to a total stranger over the internet- enj is a professional race car driver and I have been drag racing for over 15 years- everything from 500 hp AWD street/strip talons, to F bodies trapping close to 130 mph in full street trim. Heh- if someones only goal was to spin the tires, that would be pretty pathetic. As I said, I was just stating that the car will not do it without being "forced" to. My stock 110k mile 98 Z28 would melt the tires from a 1st gear roll on and that had 305's on it. This thing need clutching to get the stock 235's to break free- that's ALL I was saying. And trust me, this car needs mods to be what I want it to be, it is CERTAINLY not the driver . If you think a low 13 second/high 12 second car is fast, then that's perfectly fine- everoyone has their own opinion of what fast is, but considering most of my "slowest" daily drivers in the past have been mid-low 12's- you can understand how this would "feel" slow after something like that. I have always had fast/powerful cars- not fast "stock" cars- fast MODDED cars, so this car needs a lot more for me to really be happy with it's power. Hell, friends have said "why'd you buy a GTO, they're pigs" and even the sales man said "have you driven one? The certainly don't FEEL like 400 hp" when I went to buy it, but I don't care- I know the LSx potential and that is all I cared about. Not everyone has the same definiton of fast. Hell, I just took a friend to the dyno that did 550 to the wheels in his C5 Z06- and that is his "slow" car- his twin turbo LS1 TA puts over 875 to the wheels lol- now that is a FAST fully loaded street car .


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

kwiktsi said:


> I hope you're not talking to me??? I have no problems "spinning the tires" if that were my sole goal- the car has no balls to break them loose from a 1st gear roll on at ANY RPM without a slip of the clutch- which seems weak for a 400/400 car. Lol- "learn how to drive"- funny thing to say to a total stranger over the internet- enj is a professional race car driver and I have been drag racing for over 15 years- everything from 500 hp AWD street/strip talons, to F bodies trapping close to 130 mph in full street trim. Heh- if someones only goal was to spin the tires, that would be pretty pathetic. As I said, I was just stating that the car will not do it without being "forced" to. My stock 110k mile 98 Z28 would melt the tires from a 1st gear roll on and that had 305's on it. This thing need clutching to get the stock 235's to break free- that's ALL I was saying. And trust me, this car needs mods to be what I want it to be, it is CERTAINLY not the driver . If you think a low 13 second/high 12 second car is fast, then that's perfectly fine- everoyone has their own opinion of what fast is, but considering most of my "slowest" daily drivers in the past have been mid-low 12's- you can understand how this would "feel" slow after something like that. I have always had fast/powerful cars- not fast "stock" cars- fast MODDED cars, so this car needs a lot more for me to really be happy with it's power. Hell, friends have said "why'd you buy a GTO, they're pigs" and even the sales man said "have you driven one? The certainly don't FEEL like 400 hp" when I went to buy it, but I don't care- I know the LSx potential and that is all I cared about. Not everyone has the same definiton of fast. Hell, I just took a friend to the dyno that did 550 to the wheels in his C5 Z06- and that is his "slow" car- his twin turbo LS1 TA puts over 875 to the wheels lol- now that is a FAST fully loaded street car .


First, yes I was talking to you. Second, this is a *FORUM* where *STRANGERS* do meet, converse, state opinions etc. Answer me this one question. Why are you so fixated on not being able to spin your tires from a roll at any rpm without slipping the clutch. Damn you sound like a teenager who has no respect for his car because you can't spin your tires in a certain way so you can impress your buddies. Bottom line. Stop complaining about the GTO being a pig, having no balls or whatever else it is you don't like about it. If you are that dissatisfied with it trade it in or go ahead and mod it and be happy. Now before you wonder why I seem a little irritated with your constant bickering about the GTO let me explain something to you. I have a right to be irritated because 1) I own one and 2) I get tired of people who complain about something that they spent their money on when they knew what they were getting after they *TEST DROVE* it. You say you bought it because you knew the potential of the LSx engine. That's a dumb reason to spend $30,000. Why didn't you just by the engine and put it in something that's not a pig? Look do whatever floats your boat but damn... stop complaining about the GTO. Because what you're complaining about I have no problem doing in my goat and I know others who has no problem doing it either. Enjoy! :seeya:


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## kwiktsi (Apr 5, 2006)

Heh- just mentioned this to my wife and she flat out said "it's ok, but it's not that fast". Like I said, different strokes..... We are both just used to much more, of course with mods though.. I just love the overall package that you get with the GTO and am a big fan of the LS based motors, so I had plans for it from the day I bought it.
Joe


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## kwiktsi (Apr 5, 2006)

6QTS11OZ said:


> First, yes I was talking to you. Second, this is a *FORUM* where *STRANGERS* do meet, converse, state opinions etc. Answer me this one question. Why are you so fixated on not being able to spin your tires from a roll at any rpm without slipping the clutch. Damn you sound like a teenager who has no respect for his car because you can't spin your tires in a certain way so you can impress your buddies. Bottom line. Stop complaining about the GTO being a pig, having no balls or whatever else it is you don't like about it. If you are that dissatisfied with it trade it in or go ahead and mod it and be happy. Now before you wonder why I seem a little irritated with your constant bickering about the GTO let me explain something to you. I have a right to be irritated because 1) I own one and 2) I get tired of people who complain about something that they spent their money on when they knew what they were getting after they *TEST DROVE* it. You say you bought it because you knew the potential of the LSx engine. That's a dumb reason to spend $30,000. Why didn't you just by the engine and put it in something that's not a pig? Look do whatever floats your boat but damn... stop complaining about the GTO. Because what you're complaining about I have no problem doing in my goat and I know others who has no problem doing it either. Enjoy! :seeya:


Holy ****- someone got sand in your panties... I repeatadly said I love the GTO, but I didn't buy it for it's speed- I bought it for it's looks, comfort, RWD with a 6 speed, etc. AND because I KNOW THE POTENTIAL of this motor. It was a toss up between this and a Vette, but this was more practical. EITHER car would have been bought with the intentions of modding it. I don't tell you how to spend your money, please don't tell me how to spend mine. I had a 98 Z 28 that I was going to build instead, but decided to get the GTO instead for the above reasons. I NEVER ONCE SAID I *want* to spin the tires, actually if you read again, you'll see that wasn't my point. My point was the car not having the balls to do it from a roll on stock which surprised me, my wife, my father in law and everyone else I know who has driven it since more bottom end punch was pretty much expected out of it by each of us. 

Please re-read my posts, I am not complaining about the GTO, I am complaining about it's lack of power which is another reason sales are low and there are so many trade in's. I can show you an email from a customer that say basically "ugh, why a GTO? My friend had one for 3 months and traded it in for a Vette"- why?- because to me, it is more practical than a vette and the performance can be had easily enough- for $5100, the blower will make the car run night and day from what it does now, then when the time comes, the motor will be built and more boost will be added. 

Like I said, not trying to complain about the car, just stating a fact. And as for respect for the car- come on man, I'd like to compare who's car is better detailed at any given moment- this thing is like a child to me- but when the time comes, it had better be prepared for an ass whooping . If my sole purpose was spinning the tires, I wouldn't need mods to do it, I would just slip the clutch out at 3k and smoke all of 1st and 2nd like it will do with ease.... Maybe I should have explained things better, but I was using the tire spinning as a gauge compared to most similarly powered cars, not as a priority to me..

Hopefully this is just a misunderstanding- I didn't plan on making enemies just because I stated my opinion- like I said a couple of times now- different strokes- everyone has their opinions on what is fast, powerful, etc. I know people that get in an escort and say "damn this thing is quick" then I also know someone who I took for a ride in my [email protected] 94 Z28 and he said "it feels slow"- but he also has a 1300+ WHEEL hp twin turbo 71 Z28 lol.

If you are happy with the GTO as it rolls off the line, there is nothing wrong with that- it's perfectly fine. I just got it planning on getting a lot more out of it than what it came with. I guess modding a car is wrong now?
Joe
Joe


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## kwiktsi (Apr 5, 2006)

See- I just read your signature saying your goal is 500 whp- why is it right for you to want more, but not me? Like I said, hopefully I just didn't clarify things and this was just a dumb misunderstanding...
Joe


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## PEARL JAM (Sep 6, 2005)

Not to take sides here, but I can't think of another CURRENT $32k car sold in the states that can match the power of the GTO. A Corvette is faster, but that extra go costs extra cash. (about $12K extra):cool


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## 6QTS11OZ (Mar 27, 2005)

kwiktsi said:


> *See- I just read your signature saying your goal is 500 whp- why is it right for you to want more, but not me?* Like I said, hopefully I just didn't clarify things and this was just a dumb misunderstanding...
> Joe


I modify every car I own as my way of making it better than stock. Adding my own personal touches so to say. It's not to keep up with the Jones'. Not to try to out power or out run every car on the road. And definitely not to impress others who dis' my ride.

Also stating opinions isn't about making enemies. So no hard feelings. By the way I didn't have any sand in my panties when I responded to you earlier


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## kwiktsi (Apr 5, 2006)

PEARL JAM said:


> Not to take sides here, but I can't think of another CURRENT $32k car sold in the states that can match the power of the GTO. A Corvette is faster, but that extra go costs extra cash. (about $12K extra):cool


I said that I was comparing modded to a stock GTO saying I personally prefer more power than the GTO has stock, not that it isn't the most powerful car in it's price range. Don't forget though, a few years back, the camaros were running the same numbers the gto is and they were in the mid 20's. However, the build quality of the GTO is better than any F body I have seen .
Joe


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## kwiktsi (Apr 5, 2006)

6QTS11OZ said:


> I modify every car I own as my way of making it better than stock. Adding my own personal touches so to say. It's not to keep up with the Jones'. Not to try to out power or out run every car on the road. And definitely not to impress others who dis' my ride.
> 
> Also stating opinions isn't about making enemies. So no hard feelings. By the way I didn't have any sand in my panties when I responded to you earlier


Same here- I could give a crap less about what others do or have or if they are faster or slower, I personally like more power. Hell, even my Crossfire had a custom exhaust and 125 shot on it . I was just saying what others have commented about the GTO just to back up that I wasn't the only one with the same opinions- but the car does have a lot of potential, although still limited due to the IRS and weight. It can still make good power though.

I know some people around here who's whole life is sh!t talking about others peoples cars and who is faster and who is slower- the slower guys are "*******s" and their cars are "junk" to these people, but that is not my thing- I like what I like and could give two sh!ts what the other guy has... I was just using them for comparison. Like I said in another post- my friends Talon beat me silly on the highway- I laughed my ass off at how fast that car pulled, but I would like to have a little more for him for next time . Take it easy.
Joe


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## PEARL JAM (Sep 6, 2005)

kwiktsi said:


> Don't forget though, a few years back, the camaros were running the same numbers the gto is and they were in the mid 20's.


I agree there. Its too bad GM can't build and sell an affordable V8 RWD these days(besides a pickup) That's why Ford and Chrysler sales are so good right now, they sell affordable performance.


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## kwiktsi (Apr 5, 2006)

PEARL JAM said:


> I agree there. Its too bad GM can't build and sell an affordable V8 RWD these days(besides a pickup) That's why Ford and Chrysler sales are so good right now, they sell affordable performance.



Yeah, but the build quality of the GTO is superior. Just a shame that most people can't appreciate that and all they see is the price tag . Oh well..
Joe


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## PEARL JAM (Sep 6, 2005)

kwiktsi said:


> Yeah, but the build quality of the GTO is superior. Just a shame that most people can't appreciate that and all they see is the price tag . Oh well..
> Joe


Well, yeah, but it's too bad more people can't afford them.


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## kwiktsi (Apr 5, 2006)

True.


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## enjracing (Jun 7, 2006)

only if you bought new, guys. i have a 4,000 mile 05' that is cherry and i got it for 25,500. can't beat that. now, if i paid 30-34 grand, that would be another story.


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## PEARL JAM (Sep 6, 2005)

I paid 32k in Nov. 04 for my o4 6spd yellow. I work at a dealer so the temptation is always there! But your right. Anytime you buy used your gonna end up with better payments.


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