# Judginess



## saturnkk (May 31, 2014)

I just bought a GTO 3 weeks ago. It is a 1969 automatic and it is my first Goat. It is only driver quality so I am thinking about giving it the Judge look and feel. It already has the spoiler and hood tack. The rest is easy with striping and emblems and such.

What I am really curious about is performance... I would like to give it RAM Air or something similar. The ports don't need to open and close... they can stay open. I would also like to mod the engine to look like a Ram Air set-up with the air filter and cushion connecting up to the intakes. Finally, I would like to install a performance cam (not necessarily the exact Judge Ram Air IV option one). 

What are some recommendations on perfromance Cams (400 engine), Carburetors to match and any other air intake or misc assumptions / considerations that I should take into account. I am trying to get a look and feel of a Ram Air IV car but I don't necessarily need to have those exact specifications...

Also, what kind of Carb who you recommend? Is a Q-Jet the best option? Who does quality rebuilds?


Thanks!!


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

First, all i will say is there are a lot of judge clones out there, I know, I know they are cool and everyone wants a judge, I too considered making a clone. Your car is special because it's GTO, don't discount that history. Get the PHS, look at your cowl tag, see what she was born as and consider returning her to her assembly line roots. 

That said, RAIV performance is easy now-a-days. Get some Edelbrock aluminium heads (not ram air but they perform, don't run as hot and you can run pump gas) http://www.summitracing.com/search/...inder-heads/make/pontiac/engine-size/6-6l-400

Then go shopping at Performance Years or Whatever - here's PY part numbers 
RPE490 1969 RAM AIR IV ALUMINUM INTAKE .........................$345.00
RPE654 1968-77 2.25" RA ROUND-PORT MANIFOLDS ......$379.00/pr
HC57 CAMSHAFT, RAIV .........................................................$139.00

Most places also have the ram air goodies like the air cleaner pan, scoops, hardware, etc. 

Hardest part will be a carburetor that will perform like a RAIV Quadrajet ...

THESE ARE EXAMPLES, you can get this stuff a number of places. 


So check PY, OPGI, AMES, all that. Test out your GoogleFu

Hope this helps atriot:


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## saturnkk (May 31, 2014)

Pontiacpurebrred said:


> First, all i will say is there are a lot of judge clones out there, I know, I know they are cool and everyone wants a judge, I too considered making a clone. Your car is special because it's GTO, don't discount that history. Get the PHS, look at your cowl tag, see what she was born as and consider returning her to her assembly line roots.
> 
> That said, RAIV performance is easy now-a-days. Get some Edelbrock aluminium heads (not ram air but they perform, don't run as hot and you can run pump gas) http://www.summitracing.com/search/...inder-heads/make/pontiac/engine-size/6-6l-400
> 
> ...


Thanks! What kind of Carb do you recommend? Can I just cut out the plastic in the scoops I have? How much better would headers be than the manifold you suggested? Is there a Royal Pontiac looking header out there? Did they even use them?


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

There is another member on here looking for "uncut" hood scoops and he is willing to trade his that have been opened up. http://www.gtoforum.com/f92/wtb-1969-gto-hood-scoops-69890/ 

As far as the Judge striping....I've been considering this myself to break up all the orange for quite some time. I'd like just the stripes or a custom variation of them without the "Judge" callouts on the fenders and spoiler. 

They are just decals and if you decide you don't like them, take em' off! A magnetic stripe set would be cool, you could run the stripes and callouts if you wanted or take them off without any hassle.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Good pick on your car. But.......WHOA! Your putting the cart before the horse here. You are jumping too quick. First thing is to do some research into Pontiac GTO's, Pontiac engines, and then Pontiac aftermarket performance engines. Ames has an online catalog you might find worth while in downloading and look at the assorted items you mention -they also have books and shop manuals that will educate you on what you need to know about GTO's. 

There are many threads to be read on this forum that will educate you on your choices. You want to put together a package you won't be disappointed with. 

Do you have a budget in mind? Are you doing a complete tear down of your engine or just doing add-ons to the running car? What's in the car now? Do you want a driver or are you going to use it for drag strip use with the Ram-Air IV cam?


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

PontiacJim said:


> Good pick on your car. But.......WHOA! Your putting the cart before the horse here. You are jumping too quick. First thing is to do some research into Pontiac GTO's, Pontiac engines, and then Pontiac aftermarket performance engines. Ames has an online catalog you might find worth while in downloading and look at the assorted items you mention -they also have books and shop manuals that will educate you on what you need to know about GTO's.
> 
> There are many threads to be read on this forum that will educate you on your choices. You want to put together a package you won't be disappointed with.
> 
> Do you have a budget in mind? Are you doing a complete tear down of your engine or just doing add-ons to the running car? What's in the car now? Do you want a driver or are you going to use it for drag strip use with the Ram-Air IV cam?



Agreed!

I recommend quadrajet carburetors exclusively for Pontiac but that's just MHO here's a great resource - cliffshighperformance.com great book on how to make almost any quadrajet a quality carb for almost any application. Also recommend Jim Hands book on how to build performance Pontiac engines. Our own BearGFR is a great resource as well ...look up his build on here. 

Overall ...go in educated and you'll end up with a winner. Nuttin like good old poncho power.:laugh:


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## 68GTO4004Spd (Jun 19, 2008)

headers are notorious for being hard to fit into these cars. The RA ex manifolds flow almost as good, look more like a judge, and are much easier to fit in the car.


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## saturnkk (May 31, 2014)

PontiacJim said:


> Good pick on your car. But.......WHOA! Your putting the cart before the horse here. You are jumping too quick. First thing is to do some research into Pontiac GTO's, Pontiac engines, and then Pontiac aftermarket performance engines. Ames has an online catalog you might find worth while in downloading and look at the assorted items you mention -they also have books and shop manuals that will educate you on what you need to know about GTO's.
> 
> There are many threads to be read on this forum that will educate you on your choices. You want to put together a package you won't be disappointed with.
> 
> Do you have a budget in mind? Are you doing a complete tear down of your engine or just doing add-ons to the running car? What's in the car now? Do you want a driver or are you going to use it for drag strip use with the Ram-Air IV cam?


Thanks. I know what I have always wanted but can't quite afford... I will check AMES as well but often it is experts like you guys that know the right combinations through trial and error. I have read much about the history and have ordered books on restoration. I plan to do some myself and some with a local mechanic I trust. 

I don't have a strict budget. Considering I got the car for a good price I am willing to put more in it to make it "my" GTO. Don't need a complete tear down, add ons like I mentioned should work. 

I know that the RA IV Cam is not a very good street ride but I figured technology and time caught up to make something RA IV ish that is fun to take down to the ice cream shop too!


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## saturnkk (May 31, 2014)

68GTO4004Spd said:


> headers are notorious for being hard to fit into these cars. The RA ex manifolds flow almost as good, look more like a judge, and are much easier to fit in the car.


Thank, good to know. I had heard that Doug's Headers were a good bolt on...?


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## saturnkk (May 31, 2014)

Pontiacpurebrred said:


> Agreed!
> 
> I recommend quadrajet carburetors exclusively for Pontiac but that's just MHO here's a great resource - cliffshighperformance.com great book on how to make almost any quadrajet a quality carb for almost any application. Also recommend Jim Hands book on how to build performance Pontiac engines. Our own BearGFR is a great resource as well ...look up his build on here.
> 
> Overall ...go in educated and you'll end up with a winner. Nuttin like good old poncho power.:laugh:


Q-Jet is what I was thinking but who makes the best rebuilds? I assume there are not any new options for these...


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## saturnkk (May 31, 2014)

Also, what kind of rear end upgrade would be needed to support the RA IV torque?


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Any good Pontiac limited slip rear end will work fine as long as it's in good shape. At least as long as you stay in the stockish HP and torque range. Once you get North of say 450/450 then you may want to look into aftermarket options. Others could help you more on that than I. My builds usually stay at or below the 450/450 threshold.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

saturnkk said:


> Also, what kind of rear end upgrade would be needed to support the RA IV torque?


The factory 10-bolt can take a lot of power. If you start going wider/stickier tires, then who knows. Also, you will be using many of the "old" parts to assemble 

I would recommend set the original rear aside and get an aftermarket Ford 9" designed to drop in -has all the correct brackets. The 9" is still popular today as it always has been, so lot of aftermarket companies making complete rear end assemblies to individual parts. I went with a new 9" ( yet to be assembled) that will handle 500+HP with no problems. I did not want to have to invest in a cheaper unit, ie 10-bolt, or even 12-bolt because the 10-bolt has its ceiling in the power it will absorb and the 12-bolt is great and many use 'em, but I felt that the 9" has more strength if spec'd correctly and greater longevity in purchasing parts 20 years from now. Most hot rods run 9", so a ton of them out there -personal opinion here. Search the web for suppliers & pricing on all your options before making any decision. It can get expensive real quick & best bet is to buy a complete unit with the gearing you want. You will most likely have to alter your driveshaft length, but not 100% sure.

More power will require additional frame bracing as well. Factory added additional supports so as not to crack/tear out the crossmember at the upper control arms. You can get factory repro's of these or aftermarket. Ames also has a kit that will box the frame rails along the sides and up the frame radius in front of the wheel like the factory did on convertibles to stiffen them up. You weld these on. Keeps frame flex down - in my opinion. I plan on adding these items to my build.


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## saturnkk (May 31, 2014)

Can the RAM Air IV Cams be tuned to run reliably on the street now?


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

I gotta ask, what are you going for with this thing?

Just my humble opinion here but the RA3 cam is a real good cam for street/light strip use. A RA4 cam is not ideal for reliable street use, it won't produce good vacuum for brakes and or A/C. 

Do you just want a RA4 (like) motor for bragging rights? Along the same lines as a car that looks like a Judge? Just cause it's cool? Do you want a car you can track? A cruiser for driving around to local shows? Something you can full out race?

We can help you a lot better if we know what you're aiming for.


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## saturnkk (May 31, 2014)

Pontiacpurebrred said:


> I gotta ask, what are you going for with this thing?
> 
> Just my humble opinion here but the RA3 cam is a real good cam for street/light strip use. A RA4 cam is not ideal for reliable street use, it won't produce good vacuum for brakes and or A/C.
> 
> ...


Fair questions.

Best way I can express it is that I want the fastest/meanest car I can get that is also a decent street performer for tooling around town. It is not beating all the other cars in a race so much as knowing I could if I wanted to if that makes sense...?

I am more of a driver than a sit at a show all day person. I might track it once or twice a year. I don't want it to be a sheep in wolf's clothing.


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

Well I am officially out of my wheelhouse on this one then. I am not much of a racer anymore and I learned a LONG time ago no matter how fast you think you are there will always be someone out there ready (and sometimes able) to prove they are faster. 

Good luck with your build, Pontiac engines can and will make a lot of torque and hp. Be careful out there and remember, you don't have to prove anything to anyone EVER. If you do choose to race, do it safely, never in traffic, find someplace private, or sanctioned.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Howdy and Welcome.
Ths big question is always budget. My '69 GTO with the numbers-matching engine "surgically enhanced" runs 11.80's at the track and is streetable enough that I took it on the full Hot Rod Power Tour last year, but it sure wasn't cheap to build. If you want to make some serious _streetable_ power then you need to be thinking inches, not rpm. Building a stroker engine is the way to go. If you're interested in having one built, my opinion is that Jim Lehart at Central Virginia Machine is the best there is.

I built mine with the intention of being able to pass it off as stock to the "casual observer" while making enough power to embarrass the majority of the 'modern' muscle out there these days. Let's not talk about gas mileage though 

You do need to think about the whole package, not just the engine. I'm running a Moser 9" rear under mine, better brakes, better cooling, better suspension, and (now) better transmission (it ate the first one not too long after I got the car together).

Holler if we can help.

Bear


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## Pontiacpurebrred (Jun 22, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> Howdy and Welcome.
> Ths big question is always budget. My '69 GTO with the numbers-matching engine "surgically enhanced" runs 11.80's at the track and is streetable enough that I took it on the full Hot Rod Power Tour last year, but it sure wasn't cheap to build. If you want to make some serious _streetable_ power then you need to be thinking inches, not rpm. Building a stroker engine is the way to go. If you're interested in having one built, my opinion is that Jim Lehart at Central Virginia Machine is the best there is.
> 
> I built mine with the intention of being able to pass it off as stock to the "casual observer" while making enough power to embarrass the majority of the 'modern' muscle out there these days. Let's not talk about gas mileage though
> ...


Now there are some words to live by! atriot:

Glad you chimed in Bear, if anyone can help this man it's you. Glad you're back from hiatus.


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## saturnkk (May 31, 2014)

BearGFR said:


> Howdy and Welcome.
> Ths big question is always budget. My '69 GTO with the numbers-matching engine "surgically enhanced" runs 11.80's at the track and is streetable enough that I took it on the full Hot Rod Power Tour last year, but it sure wasn't cheap to build. If you want to make some serious _streetable_ power then you need to be thinking inches, not rpm. Building a stroker engine is the way to go. If you're interested in having one built, my opinion is that Jim Lehart at Central Virginia Machine is the best there is.
> 
> I built mine with the intention of being able to pass it off as stock to the "casual observer" while making enough power to embarrass the majority of the 'modern' muscle out there these days. Let's not talk about gas mileage though
> ...




Thanks you for both the reply and offer! My preference would be to keep the 400 and beef it up best I can and still have a dependable driver. That is why I was thinking RA III or RA IV Cam and the necessary peripheral parts (e.g. heads, intake manifold, manifold, carb, air intake, etc...).


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Just in case I wasn't clear, my car is also running the original 400 - numbers-matching in fact. It's just that "the guts" include a crank with a 4.25" stroke as opposed to the orginal 3.75", and the cylinders have been bored + 0.035. Viola - 461 cubic inches.

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

What these guys said. My best suggestion is to forget about the Ram Air 4 or any Ram Air cam. Old technology, meant to be used with high compression and race gas with steep gears, etc. Absolutely not the thing to use 4o years later on the street with today's fuels. Do the research, like Bear did, and start listing what you'll need for what you want to accomplish. The Ram Air cams make LESS torque than the lesser factory cams like the 068. They make more HP at high RPM, however. I've been driving GTO's continually since the late '70's. I've driven my current two continually since the early '80's. They used to be able to shut down about anything I ran across. No more. Not with today's 11 second Cadillac and 12 second everything else. Power costs money. A nice, solid 13 second driver will cost about half what an 11 second driver will cost to build. And get much better fuel economy as well. Up to you what you want your end product to be. But the best way to go about it is to do what you are already doing: ask questions and reasearch, reasearch, research! X2 on building a stroker motor with your current block and running some KRE or Edelbrock heads. Very easy to make 500 streetable HP with that combo, and still get 'teens fuel mileage.


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## saturnkk (May 31, 2014)

geeteeohguy said:


> What these guys said. My best suggestion is to forget about the Ram Air 4 or any Ram Air cam. Old technology, meant to be used with high compression and race gas with steep gears, etc. Absolutely not the thing to use 4o years later on the street with today's fuels. Do the research, like Bear did, and start listing what you'll need for what you want to accomplish. The Ram Air cams make LESS torque than the lesser factory cams like the 068. They make more HP at high RPM, however. I've been driving GTO's continually since the late '70's. I've driven my current two continually since the early '80's. They used to be able to shut down about anything I ran across. No more. Not with today's 11 second Cadillac and 12 second everything else. Power costs money. A nice, solid 13 second driver will cost about half what an 11 second driver will cost to build. And get much better fuel economy as well. Up to you what you want your end product to be. But the best way to go about it is to do what you are already doing: ask questions and reasearch, reasearch, research! X2 on building a stroker motor with your current block and running some KRE or Edelbrock heads. Very easy to make 500 streetable HP with that combo, and still get 'teens fuel mileage.


Solid advise, thanks. Ram Air III even has trouble with 92-93 Octane then?


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

An engine built to Ram AIR III specs will need a minimum of 100 octane. Even a garden variety pre '71 GTO needs 100 octane fuel. We are talking high compression here. That's why aluminum heads, or dished pistons with iron heads, and lower rpm stroker motors are so popular. They make tons of power on poor quality fuel.


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## saturnkk (May 31, 2014)

geeteeohguy said:


> An engine built to Ram AIR III specs will need a minimum of 100 octane. Even a garden variety pre '71 GTO needs 100 octane fuel. We are talking high compression here. That's why aluminum heads, or dished pistons with iron heads, and lower rpm stroker motors are so popular. They make tons of power on poor quality fuel.


I have been running mine on 93 octane and it seems to run fine with no knocks or pings.


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