# Need help on used '05 price



## secretsquirrel (Aug 30, 2006)

Ok, so some of you all might know from my other thread that I'm looking to trade in my '06 Dodge Charter R/T w/ Road & Track Performance Package, EVIC, UConnect, and Electronic Convenience package with 11500 miles. It is absolutely, positively, perfect.

Now, I found 2 used '05 GTOs, both M6s, both right around 5k miles each, both listing for about $25k. One cyclone gray, one quicksilver, both have 17" wheels. Both are GM Certified vehicles.

The quicksilver has a small hole punched in the front bumper from where it looks like someone pulled too close to a truck with a hitch on the back. That one is out.

The cyclone gray looks pretty close to perfect outside, and it was never even titled. It was a GM convention car that they took to conventions, roadshows, carshows, sporting events, etc. to show off. But it has been sitting on this guy's lot for at least 4 months (from what he told me, but I suspect even longer).

PROBLEM: We started talking numbers on my trade-in (remember, absolutely perfect Charger), he pulls up Maheim auction numbers and says that Chargers are going for 23k at the auction (with an average mileage of 13500 miles). Now when I looked up AutoTrader and Ebay numbers, these things, optioned as mine is, with just under 12k miles, are going for 28-30k. NADA and Kelley Blue Book both recommend 27k trade-in value.

So what do you guys think? I was honestly expecting to get 26-27k trade-in on the car (it is only 6 months old). With my loan how it is, there is no way I could sell it for 23k.

Now, he doesn't have a single Charger on the lot, but he has two GTOs that have been there for months and months without selling. So that would be a definite advantage. What do you think I could push that price down to? And how high do you think I could pull the trade-in value to?

Thanks for the help folks!


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

This isn't rocket science. The GTO is $25K. They're offering you $23K for your car. If you need $27K for your car -- the only thing you can do is ask them to cut the price of their car to $21K. Most likely, you can meet them somewhere in the middle. $23K for the GTO and $25K for your trade sounds about right.

When buying a car, break everything down to three small deals instead of one big one:

1. Trade in value for your car.
2. What you'll pay for their car.
3. Cost of moola, if you need to finance.

Obviously, since they've got inventory sitting around, they're not in a hurry to turn things fast, so that ought to tell you something. Some dealers like to generate volume by moving cars. Others will let stuff sit forever by swinging for the fences on every deal.

Another problem you have is DaimlerChysler's offering employee pricing on the Charger. So subtract that from your trade. Since gas went up this year, sales of DCX SUVs (Durangos), pickups (Rams) and all of their RWD V8 sedans (Charger, Magnum, 300C) have fallen off a cliff.

Probably the best thing to do is to try and sell your car by yourself -- get the most money you can -- then find a slightly used or dead stock new GTO.


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## Mad_Dan_Eccles (Mar 25, 2006)

secretsquirrel said:


> Now, he doesn't have a single Charger on the lot, but he has two GTOs that have been there for months and months without selling. So that would be a definite advantage. What do you think I could push that price down to? And how high do you think I could pull the trade-in value to?
> 
> Thanks for the help folks!


The only way any business like a car dealer stays in the black is to make profit _on every deal he makes_.

You may not get much joy here as the deal won't have any value for him if you trade for 27 and he sells for 25 - he loses 2K in available cash. Basically he's got to trade you up in price and not down - it doesn't matter what KBB or NADA says the trade in shoudl be, you won't get a deal where you trade in more expensive car on a cheaper one unless he can turn it round very fast (i.e buyer waiting on the lot for you to trade), so you're going to have to accept any trade offer will be less than the selling price of the Goat by a couple of Kilobucks. If the price of the GTO goes down so would your trade allowance. 

Sure if he does it your way he's got a Charger to sell instead of a Goat and that may make money for him in a few weeks but not now. If he's got a slow moving inventory (and most dealers seem to at the moment) the last thing he wants is still more money tied up in having stock on the lot - simply put he's probably better off not making the deal. 

Your best bet would be to sell the Charger elsewhere and walk in ready to pay cash. Folding money or bank cheques waved under their noses does wonders for your negotiations.


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## secretsquirrel (Aug 30, 2006)

Both good responses, thanks guys!

And I understand they need to make their money somewhere, I'm sympathetic to that. I'm just trying to preven them from making any more money off of me than is necessary.

But I think you guys are right, what with the prices of new cars dropping because of rebates, I'd have to take a hit on the Charger and get a better deal on the GTO.

But I don't know if I could take that much negative equity (and I'm not sure how dealers feel about that to begin with).

We'll see... thanks again folks!


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

secretsquirrel said:


> PROBLEM: We started talking numbers on my trade-in (remember, absolutely perfect Charger),* he pulls up Maheim auction numbers *and says that Chargers are going for 23k at the auction (with an average mileage of 13500 miles). Now when I looked up AutoTrader and Ebay numbers, these things, optioned as mine is, with just under 12k miles, are going for 28-30k. NADA and Kelley Blue Book both recommend 27k trade-in value.


*
I live minutes from the Manheim Auto Auction. That auction is only for dealers, NOT Joe Buyer. From the information I get from people that work there, I am told I would not believe how cheap cars go for to the dealers.. They see the actual prices. The prices are clearly auction prices. The prices vary. I doubt they have that many Chargers going through there right now being they are still new and I wouldn't think that many go through to base a solid average on. As I stated, I know people that work there and they make a big deal when a GTO goes through there which is once in a great while. 

ALL the cars being sold there at auction are dealers selling there. A dealer takes a trade in there that he cannot move and the cars are then auctioned off to other dealers. This is no way like Barrett Jackson. You must be a dealer to bid. Keep in mind then, that the car if it is there to be auctioned off either couldn't be moved at that dealer's lot, or he wants to unload it for cash.

My son and daughter in law has access to the inventory thru her step dad who delivers cars for them and any time they are there they havn't seen any Chargers.

I have no idea what the true resale and trade in values are... but, I think this guy is throwing at you information only he as access to and you do not, and you are to take is word for it. I have had dealers in the past think I was ignorant to their practices until they are called on it. Also keep in mind different areas of the country bring different prices. Prices in Manheim PA will vary to prices on the W.Coast. *


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## olblugoat (Aug 20, 2006)

*same situtation*

I ran into the same situation trying to trade my 04 SSR recently. Most of the dealers were dead on same trade-in number and would not budge. Not even close to KBB. A dealer showed me real time Manheim numbers. I was bummered out. He complained how he had a black SSR for months on his lot before it finally moved. He was not looking for another SSR. I said well how often are you going to sell a 06 Brazen with the gas prices right now - he said "You're here!" Point taken.
If you can wait, post your car in the Trader and get the most cash you can. Most all the dealers did not want to budge from their used prices either because Goats in my area don't last long.
What pisses me off is KBB and other resepectable guides are readily available and here comes another tool we the consumer have no access to. You can almost never win with dealers.


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## Mad_Dan_Eccles (Mar 25, 2006)

olblugoat said:


> What pisses me off is KBB and other resepectable guides are readily available and here comes another tool we the consumer have no access to. You can almost never win with dealers.



No point getting pissed off - the delaers are using a more realistic valuation than KBB based on what they would get for the car wholesale. 

Basically KBB is out of date, both in the figures quoted and in the way they present the info. The business model for valuing trades has changed and they'll pretty soon cease to have any relevance as a tool for trading unless they can ensure their figures are more reflective of real-world trade-in values.


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## txcharlie (Feb 26, 2006)

*Find a buyer for your trade!*

The best of both worlds is do a run through. You list you car like you are going to sell it to a individual. When you have a buyer (deposit in hand), go to the dealer that has the car you want to buy and tell him you have a buyer for your trade. This way you get what your car is worth and you won't have to pay taxes on your GTO. 
I just did this two weeks ago by selling my truck on Ebay. The buyer was in Hawaii and the dealer agreed to give me what I sold my truck for in trade, just so he didn't have to deal with shipping the truck to Hawaii. Some dealers will try to charge you a fee for doing a run through, but it will still be much less than letting the dealer low ball your trade. Hope this helps. :cool 
Charlie


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## secretsquirrel (Aug 30, 2006)

txcharlie, that isn't a bad idea. Hadn't really heard of that before.

That may be a nice option as then I'll be able to finance the negative equity from the Charger into the new GTO. If I can find a buyer myself and get a higher price for my car, then the negative equity will be much less.

That would be the problem with just selling it myself, as I would have to pay off the balance on the loan which I'd rather not do.

So if Manheim is accurate for dealer auctions only, and KBB is out of date, what is a good tool to determine the value of my car?


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## Mad_Dan_Eccles (Mar 25, 2006)

secretsquirrel said:


> So if Manheim is accurate for dealer auctions only, and KBB is out of date, what is a good tool to determine the value of my car?


What the dealer offers is a start - get several offers from dealers and that will give you good guide to it's wholesale value. The value is what someoe is prepared to pay and will vary according to who is paying and how much they want your car

KBB is still a good indicator as a base point for private party and retail sales, but be prepared to move on the value they give; actual sales values are often lower, but the book value is useful as starting point - if KBB says 30 ask 30 and be prepared to accept 28. 

Where it falls down is as a guide to wholesale values since you will find that wholesale prices have dumped for most cars due to overstocked lots and thisty cars have been affected even worse. We wanted to trade my wfes truck a few months ago; the KBB value was 11k and we couldn't get a deal above 7.5K. So we didn't trade - we decided to keep it for a year or two longer


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## txcharlie (Feb 26, 2006)

So if Manheim is accurate for dealer auctions only, and KBB is out of date, what is a good tool to determine the value of my car?[/QUOTE]

They are not outdated. Ask your dealer how he arrived at his asking price? I'll bet one of those "out of dated" books had something to do with it. They like to use Manheim to value trades, because you and I don't have access to it. I would use KBB trade value to determine what you can expect from the sale of your car. Generally 'average condition' is the value you can get. That is what I got from the sale of my truck on Ebay(which ended at midnight). If I had planned the end of my auction better(not midnight), I feel I would have gotten more for it. Also, shop your car around the independent dealers, not the franchise dealers. You will get better offers. If you can wait to find a buyer, list it on autotrader.com or cars.com. If you can't wait, list it on Ebay, and you will have real bids and offers is as little as 1 day, although I would not recommend a 1 day auction. Hope this helps.
Charlie :willy:


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## Eddie 70 (Aug 29, 2006)

Today I was running around and found a NEW 05 with 65 miles on the odometer. Red/red A4, asking $27,855. Right beside it there was a silver/black M6 06. No stealer around on Sunday evening though.


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## secretsquirrel (Aug 30, 2006)

I found one online, 2005, red, 158 miles, not sure the transmisison, but it is listed in their 'used' section. Not sure if it is there because it is an '05, or if it had already been titled for a hundred miles somehow.... asking 25k.

Sounds too good to be true, but I'll be calling tomorrow to find out more... keeping fingers crossed that it is an M6...


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## Eddie 70 (Aug 29, 2006)

Any news on the GTO? Sounds like a good deal to me if it were an M6. Make sure to let us know what you find.


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## secretsquirrel (Aug 30, 2006)

Not yet... tried calling that dealership with the new one but I think they are closed today.

Gonna check out the used one, 5k miles, Cyclone Gray, M6 today.

What '05 GTO specific issues should I be on the look out for? It is a GM certified car, but I'd still rather not have any surprises.

I've heard of bad struts on some GTOs? And bad paint in some areas (where exactly)? Anything else?


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## PC4STOP (Sep 3, 2006)

I only read the starting post. I would suggest you tell the dealer to give you what your trade is worth or pound sand. This place is doing exactly what "stealers" are hated for, ripping people off.

If they won't give you what it's worth sell it yourself and go buy a GTO of your choice with the money.


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## secretsquirrel (Aug 30, 2006)

Well PC4STOP, you'll love this story then.

Just got back from the dealership to check out the '05 w/ 5k miles.

Picture this, my wife and I are young (25 years old), we look like we are 12, but we are successful, financially stable adults. We are sitting in the office after having just enjoyed a spirited test drive of the GTO.

Salesman lays down the numbers for the trade-in for the Charger and the price for the GTO.

Trade-in Price for '06 Charger (11600 miles, perfect condition, tons of options): $16500
Cost of '05 GTO (5000 miles, good condition): $27500

Imagine my initial reaction. I mean, the trade-in value was an insult, plain and simple. They looked at us like we were naive kids. The worst part was that I had talked to the office manager just last Friday and he said he would give me at least $23000 (still too low), and here they try to give me $6500 less.

And last Friday, the price of the car was $25,495. Today? Somehow jumped up to $27495 and the sale sticker was mysteriously absent?

I didn't let him sit down, I told him to get out of the office and don't play games. After a couple back and forths their best was $23500 for the Charger and $24250 for the GTO.

So I walked.


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## PC4STOP (Sep 3, 2006)

Did you leave your name and number, I bet they call back in a day or two.

I truely believe that car salesman are one step below defense attorneys, maybe even below personal injury attorneys. No offense if anyone here is one of those three.

I laugh because I had one sales guy treat me like a kid. He simply walked around with me. He acted like I was wasting his time. It was me and my fiance. She is VERY young looking at 34. She stands 5 foot even and about 100 pounds. I look about 25 even though I'm actually 35. There I was in shorts and a tanktop looking at a $30,000+ car. When I asked to test drive one the jackass actually told me they don't allow test drives of the GTOs.

I chewed the guys ass out in the showroom, in front of several customers. It was funny because the guys face was priceless as I explained loudly that he was treating me like a punk kid when in fact I am 35 years old with my second home, several cars under my belt, and a 11 year veteran police officer. My fiance left because she got embarrassed. I left feeling better because the more I dealt with the guy the madder I was getting, the test drive was the final straw and he chose the showroom to pull that one. When I left anyone with the area knew what the guy pulled. I had something similar when I bought my 2001 Silverado. I originally went to look at the Ford Lightening and got the same kind of jackass. I bit my tongue that time and often wished I had told the guy off. I wasn't letting this guy go.


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## secretsquirrel (Aug 30, 2006)

I don't blame you at all PC4STOP.

I was yelling at my salesman as he walked down the hall to talk to the finance folks after that initial $16500 offer for my Charger.

After I got tired of their crap and kept yelling at them to quit screwing around with me (seriously though, the sale sign on Friday and then pulling it down today was complete bait and switch), they finally brought the sales manager to talk to me. He tried to talk me through the numbers but I wasn't budging.

I told him I'm out, but he said he'd talk to a buddy at a Dodge dealership in Houston to see if he would buy the car from him for higher than they were willing to give me on the trade.

He has my number, so we'll see what happens.

But I really want to write a letter to the owner/manager over there. But they are going through some management change, so I wouldn't know who to write to. But man I'd like to give them a piece of my mind.


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## Eddie 70 (Aug 29, 2006)

Squirrel it sounds like you had a pretty fun time today also. At least they did get in your ball park with the offers at the end of the day. I would have been very tempted if I would have been that close with my deal of the day.


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## secretsquirrel (Aug 30, 2006)

Best 10 minutes of my Labor Day were on that test-drive. Damn that is a fun car.

They got in my ballpark, but still not quite. Knowing I could get a new '05 for the same price as a used with 5k miles, can't do it.

I'll check out that other dealership with the new one and see what they woud give for my Charger. I also found a guy in MO who is interesting in my Charger, so I may try a 'run through' with the dealership as I know that guy will do better than 23k.

Do you guys realize how much fun your GTOs are?


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## Eddie 70 (Aug 29, 2006)

Yesterday I did find a new 05 A4 that I may go back and look at later next weekend. I had my heart set on a black 6 speed though. I guess I should wait and bide my time. Kind of hard to haul a whole lot in a GTO aint it.


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## secretsquirrel (Aug 30, 2006)

Eddie 70, don't compromise! Get EXACTLY what you want, otherwise you'll regret it later!

The Charger was exactly what I wanted at the time I was living in DC, fighting DC traffic and blending in with BMWs, Lincolns, and Mercedes.

Now that I live in Texas, much less traffic, easier commute, and I realize how much I miss a manual transmission.

So now I'm not going to settle for anything less than a used '05/'06 M6, although I'm flexible on color.

Gosh I can't wait till I find one...


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## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

secretsquirrel said:


> Do you guys realize how much fun your GTOs are?


*Yes, every time I look at it. :cheers *


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## b_a_betterperson (Feb 16, 2005)

My Dad's an absolute master at buying cars. We were killing time during a rain delay at the NHRA Winternationals a few years ago. So we head out to a Cadillac dealer in West Covina just to look over their inventory. 

My Dad finds an Eldo he likes and asks what their best price is for a cash buyer. They come back with a great, great number. So my Dad says, "that's nice, now what will you give me for my trade?" The salesman turns bright red and starts gasping for breath like he's about to keel over or something. He then throws his clipboard against the wall and stomps out of his office. My Dad and I just look at each other and laugh.

A few minutes later, the used car manager looks at our car and gives us a BS low ball price. So Dad says, "here's my cell phone number. We're heading back to the track. I'll be OK with X for this car. I'm not giving it away -- but I'm not grinding you into the dirt, either. We'll be there until 5 before heading back North. You want to sell this car today -- you know what to do."

Sure enough, at 459, they called and said OK...


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