# Pypes Cutouts - Buyer Beware



## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Well, those Pypes electric cutouts I have on the Beast stopped working, so I sent them in to take advantage of the adverstised "limited lifetime" warranty. Apparently, "lifetime" means different things to different people. They refused to repair them under warranty, holding fast to the position that I "must have done something" to burn out the motors. Cost to repair: $150 plus $15 shipping.

They're nice when they work, but if they ever stop working my experience is that they'll do everything in their power to blame it on you so they won't have to honor the warranty.

Bear


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## facn8me (Jul 30, 2011)

Well that sucks. Isn't pypes owned by Performance Years?


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## jpalamar (Jul 22, 2008)

They make headers for my gen Mustang at a great price and they dyno much better then Pacesetters are are actually stainless. From what I understand, they are basically Kooks knockoffs. I've seen them in person and the welds were great and most people say the fitment was perfect as well.

It is good to know about their warranty issue though. Did you ever ship them to them so they could look at it or did they just deny based on email/phone call? I can't really think of anything you can personally do to break them without smashing them. I doubt that is the case but it is sad to see a company that has potential screw someone over $100.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

lifetime warranty meens for the life of the product. When they stop working, their life is done.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I did ship them in, at my expense of course. When I talked to the tech the first time I explained that they'd stopped working on the car, and I'd removed them and confirmed that they weren't working off the car. I could tell by the questions he was asking me that he was looking for something he could pin on me.

Sure enough, earlier today when I called to find out the status on them and found out they weren't going to honor the warranty the guy I talked to kept referring to that first conversation and insisting that my testing had burned out the motors. The idea that I would have had no reason to test anything had they not already stopped working on the car didn't cut any ice with him, and things got really unpleasant and heated. He wanted to lecture me on how electric motors, switches, and circuits work and he kept insisting that the motor didn't need a ground at all to operate. I have a degree in Math with a minor in Physics so I think maybe I might understand a little about electricity and motor circuits... 

They're sending them back to me, unrepaired, at my expense of course. I'll be hanged if I'm going to pay for something that I know wasn't my fault.

What's probably going on here is that the motors are under-engineered for the load they're under, and they know it, and they're having to replace a lot of them under warranty so they're losing money on them and looking for any excuse not to have to honor the warranty. It's the only thing that makes sense.

When I get them back I'll either see if I can fix them myself with better motors or just trash them.

Bear


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

How the heck could you burn them out testing them?? Short of plugging them into a wall socket, I don't see how that could happen.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Rukee said:


> How the heck could you burn them out testing them?? Short of plugging them into a wall socket, I don't see how that could happen.


Well, there's already a warning in the product doc against keeping the switch engaged after the motors have reached their limit of travel, either opened or closed. That tells me right there that they know the motors are marginal for what they're doing with them. I'm sure if they hadn't seized on the "testing" idea they would have accused me of causing them to fail by holding the switch "too long". I know this is a fight I can't win. Despite being happy so far with the rest of the exhaust system, you can bet I've spent the last nickel I'll ever spend on anything from Pypes.

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Bear, you are of course, RIGHT and your are getting WRONGED. Yes, I agree: seems electrick motors fail in two ways: one is after a long long life, due to wear, and the MAIN one is overloaded/undersized for the application. There has to be something we can do. This is unacceptable. I seem to remember a thread on the "other" site about this exact same thing.....If you used a credit card, you may be able to report fraud, as they cheated you out of your warranty....That's where I'd start, probably. I'd also call them back and talk to the joker's supervisor/boss and go up the chain of demand. The customer is always right in business, if that business wants to STAY in business!!! You need a REFUND and an APOLOGY........my 2 cent rant.........


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Thanks for the vote of confidence, GeeTee  Yeah, I'm pretty hot about it but at some point it's better for me to just realized I've lost and move on. I'm also not optmistic about the reception I'd receive on the 'other site' if I were to complain there, given the relationships involved over there. All I'd probably accomplish would be to get myself marked as a pariah, or even banned - and besides I don't really need the associated stress. Better for me to just realize I've been had and move on.

When the moron on the phone kept wanting to lecture me about motors, electricity, and circuits; that HE was the one who designed their switch and wiring harness; and that the motor didn't need a ground at all to operate - well I knew it was a lost cause at that point. He kept calling their switch a DPDT switch (double pole, double throw) and that's not even what it is. It's actually known as a DPCO switch (double pole, center off).

Like my Daddy always said: "Never wrestle with a pig. All that's gonna happen is you're both going to get muddy, and the pig likes it that way."

I did log on to my Summit account because I think that's where I bought them, but couldn't find it in the order history so maybe I got them somewhere else, or the order has rolled off their system. If I can find the transaction in my records I might take a run at it from that direction, but I'm not going to spend much more emotional capital trying to deal with it.

Bear


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I did attempt to contact Pypes mgmt earlier this evening. We'll see how that goes.


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## jpalamar (Jul 22, 2008)

Complain to the BBB. It sounds like a very reasonable request that you have.


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## facn8me (Jul 30, 2011)

Not to sound rude but the BBB can't really do anything. Yeah after 6 months to a year they may get a "bad" mark on their record. But considering 99% of the population doesn't look or care it's not really that effective. I got a "bad" mark on my record once. A woman had tied her w/w arm to the door with her daughters sock when her fancy double bladed cheapo's broke apart. I spent about and hour getting repairing the pivot point and put 2 brand new anco steel wiper blades on. Chargerd her $30 TOTAL. Her husband freaked as he only paid $7.95 for those wonderful plastic double wipers. How dare I overcharge his wife let alone put her life in danger because I let her back the car out of the bay. It was raining and I was trying to be a nice guy and not have her walk in the rain. Wich is why I never check the BBB for anything. Too many people lie and feel cheated and that hurts the people that really have a complaint.


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

:agree
That's why I won't take CC`s. Say you do a 3 grand tranny job for someone, they pay with the CC and you pay your suppier say 2 grand for the tranny. They complain and put a hold on your account for the 3 grand. Right at that monement your out 5g!! The 3 they are in dispute and the 2 you paid out to the supplier.


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## kilkm68 (May 5, 2011)

Thanks for the heads up. I was thinking about buying a pair of these. File a complaint with the BBB and/or the state attorney generals office and let their customer service department know about your intentions. I've got surprising results doing this before with other problems I've had.


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## jpalamar (Jul 22, 2008)

facn8me said:


> Not to sound rude but the BBB can't really do anything. Yeah after 6 months to a year they may get a "bad" mark on their record. But considering 99% of the population doesn't look or care it's not really that effective. I got a "bad" mark on my record once. A woman had tied her w/w arm to the door with her daughters sock when her fancy double bladed cheapo's broke apart. I spent about and hour getting repairing the pivot point and put 2 brand new anco steel wiper blades on. Chargerd her $30 TOTAL. Her husband freaked as he only paid $7.95 for those wonderful plastic double wipers. How dare I overcharge his wife let alone put her life in danger because I let her back the car out of the bay. It was raining and I was trying to be a nice guy and not have her walk in the rain. Wich is why I never check the BBB for anything. Too many people lie and feel cheated and that hurts the people that really have a complaint.


I had good luck with the BBB. I tried to cancel my gym membership early because of a military deployement and in my contract it stated if I moved X amount of miles from the gym I could cancel without penatily. I showed them my orders and they wouldn't cancel it until I sent them proof of residence like I would have time for that where I was going. BBB website form filled out and 2 weeks later my membership was canceled no problem and I paid what I owed up until the date I shipped.

Also used BBB with ATT for my cell phone. I upgraded my phone and the phone I got I didn't like so I returned it. The guy forget to cancel my contract renewal with the upgrade return. I went to change to Sprint because the plans were much better and got a bill in the mail from ATT for $175 for canceling early. After an hour with reps that could barely speak English I went on BBB website and filled out the form. Got a call from someone at ATT a week later and the charges were removed from my account and I paid my final prorated bill.

BBB was great for me. NO, there is no guarentee but it is still a free tool to use that can help.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Personally I'd start by sending them a link to this thread and any others you may have started on any other Pontiac sites and let them know that you've put the word out on their terrible customer service.

These companies are what they are because of enthiastst like you, Bear.

I use the internet to research quality and customer service as I'm sure many others do. You are respected on this site because of your knowledge and dedication to the hobby and I think most members look to this site for recomendations on parts and suppliers. 

I recommend companies and products I'm happy with in the hopes that it will benefit someone else. I also consider the negatives I hear about them also in my purchases.


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## jetstang (Nov 5, 2008)

They gave you a 3 position switch so you have to turn the on/off motor off, instead of making it amp sensing like the corvette headlights. Then, put a motor on the exhaust and not recommending mounting at far aft as you can to stop heat soak. No electric motor lives in a high heat environment. Thanks for the insite, won't be buying them. How close did you have them to the collector?


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## facn8me (Jul 30, 2011)

jpalamar said:


> I had good luck with the BBB. I tried to cancel my gym membership early because of a military deployement and in my contract it stated if I moved X amount of miles from the gym I could cancel without penatily. I showed them my orders and they wouldn't cancel it until I sent them proof of residence like I would have time for that where I was going. BBB website form filled out and 2 weeks later my membership was canceled no problem and I paid what I owed up until the date I shipped.
> 
> Also used BBB with ATT for my cell phone. I upgraded my phone and the phone I got I didn't like so I returned it. The guy forget to cancel my contract renewal with the upgrade return. I went to change to Sprint because the plans were much better and got a bill in the mail from ATT for $175 for canceling early. After an hour with reps that could barely speak English I went on BBB website and filled out the form. Got a call from someone at ATT a week later and the charges were removed from my account and I paid my final prorated bill.
> 
> BBB was great for me. NO, there is no guarentee but it is still a free tool to use that can help.


You have convinced me to see what they can do for me with t mobile, dem bastages have me irritated


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

jetstang said:


> They gave you a 3 position switch so you have to turn the on/off motor off, instead of making it amp sensing like the corvette headlights. Then, put a motor on the exhaust and not recommending mounting at far aft as you can to stop heat soak. No electric motor lives in a high heat environment. Thanks for the insite, won't be buying them. How close did you have them to the collector?


Well, it's actually a DPCO (double pole, center off) momentary contact switch so it turns itself off when you release it, but you do have to "manually" figure out when the dumps are either full open or full closed and release the switch then so you don't burn out the motors. They warn you about that in the doc.

I have (er, had) them installed on the out-legs of the x-change cross over, replacing the block-off plates you can see in this photo:









Bear


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

i hate to hear they turned out like this for you. i have been really looking forward to getting some of these for myself. i havent had a specific brand in mind but now that i have seen this and read jets reply, it does seem like that much heat would be really hard on any of them. i hope they end up doing the right thing.


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## fasterfiero (Sep 6, 2011)

Sounds like a bum deal.... 
poor design, a good design would have thermal protection, or overload protection. Not a sentence in the instructions saying be careful. It is sad if they can get away with that, it would be kinda like if gm said be careful with your power windows don't hold the switch too long.......


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

66tempestGT said:


> i hate to hear they turned out like this for you. i have been really looking forward to getting some of these for myself. i havent had a specific brand in mind but now that i have seen this and read jets reply, it does seem like that much heat would be really hard on any of them. i hope they end up doing the right thing.


I've been looking at other brands since this happened, and so far the ones I like the best are QTP's. DMH is the other popular brand. When I get mine back I'm going to look into fixing them myself with better motors.

Bear


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

*I've been flat out lied to.*

So I received my cutouts back from Pypes "so called" customer support, after they denied my warranty claim. The said that I had incorrectly applied power to the motors and burned them out. Well, tonight I decided to look at the motors. What I found has made me -beyond- angry. 

Attached are two photos of the insides of the motor gearboxes. Notice that the first one appears more or less normal. Pay particular attention to the blue and pink PLASTIC gears in the first photo. Now look at the second photo. Notice anything? The problem with both units is NOT electrical, which I proved by removing the gears from the first motor (which, although you can't tell from the photo, were bound up and very stiff because they had begun to suffer from the effects of exhaust heat - just not yet to the extent obvious in the second photo). With the gears removed, the *motor runs just fine* - in both directions - when I apply power to it according to the way I know it works (not the way that the lying sack of excrement at Pypes tried to tell me it worked). The problem is not electrical - it's that the freaking gearboxes HAVE PLASTIC GEARS IN THEM!!! Does anyone see a problem with this design on something that is exposed to exhaust heat? Anyone?

The only conclusion I can draw from this experience when combined with the lack of any sort of response from Pypes management, is that they know this product is crap, they know it's eventually going to fail, and would do so even if you installed it and never even wired it up to power.

It's just a matter of time before exhaust heat is going to melt the gears in these things.




















Bear


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## AlaGreyGoat (Jul 6, 2006)

Get one of those cheap web domains and start a web site
Dont-Buy-pypes.com or something and post these pic. Send the link to their
customer support team.

Larry


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Bear, I would e-mail them the pics. See what they say now....Definately a poor design in my "educated by life experience" opinion!!!! Eric


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I haven't yet decided what I'm going to do, but after my previous experience with them and how they treated me on the phone, it's not likely that I'll subject myself to that sort of abuse again. I wonder if Summit and Jegs know what kind of risks they're taking with their own customer relations and reputations by re-selling Pypes products?

Bear


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## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Why would they not want to redesign those gears and fix the problem they created?
Bad news gets around 10 times faster then good news.


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## facn8me (Jul 30, 2011)

I would sure post that up on PY's forum just cause I could..


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I'm probably nuts for doing this, but I did just send an email to ccass containing a description of my experience along with the photos. It would be nice to find out that all of this was unknown to him, that he's willing to make it right, and that he's going to deal with at least two of his employee's that are damaging his reputation. I'm not overly optimistic. We'll see what happens.

Bear


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

If that doesn't get it, face is right...post it on the other forum. Not as slander, but just the plain, objective facts that plastic gears will fail when exposed to exhaust heat , that yours failed within miles, and that _you_ were held responsible for "burning out the motors" by the "experts". Customer service like this is one big reason tha America is turning into a 3rd world country.


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## Hot_Rod (Feb 10, 2011)

jpalamar said:


> I had good luck with the BBB. I tried to cancel my gym membership early because of a military deployement and in my contract it stated if I moved X amount of miles from the gym I could cancel without penatily. I showed them my orders and they wouldn't cancel it until I sent them proof of residence like I would have time for that where I was going. BBB website form filled out and 2 weeks later my membership was canceled no problem and I paid what I owed up until the date I shipped.
> 
> Also used BBB with ATT for my cell phone. I upgraded my phone and the phone I got I didn't like so I returned it. The guy forget to cancel my contract renewal with the upgrade return. I went to change to Sprint because the plans were much better and got a bill in the mail from ATT for $175 for canceling early. After an hour with reps that could barely speak English I went on BBB website and filled out the form. Got a call from someone at ATT a week later and the charges were removed from my account and I paid my final prorated bill.
> 
> BBB was great for me. NO, there is no guarentee but it is still a free tool to use that can help.


They helped me get my xbox fixed awhile back when the warranty had just went out at the same time my xbox quit working. They reapired mine for half price of what they wouldve if it had been a normal repair. Doesnt hurt to try BBB.


ALKYGTO said:


> Personally I'd start by sending them a link to this thread and any others you may have started on any other Pontiac sites and let them know that you've put the word out on their terrible customer service.
> 
> These companies are what they are because of enthiastst like you, Bear.
> 
> ...





Rukee said:


> Why would they not want to redesign those gears and fix the problem they created?
> Bad news gets around 10 times faster then good news.




Yeah bad reps will get their attention quick.


66tempestGT said:


> i hate to hear they turned out like this for you. i have been really looking forward to getting some of these for myself. i havent had a specific brand in mind but now that i have seen this and read jets reply, it does seem like that much heat would be really hard on any of them. i hope they end up doing the right thing.


QTP is what I'd suggest. I had one on my old '96 firebird. Had a red wire/ground wire and a switch. worked like anything else electrical. I had ZERO issue with it the whole 2 years I had it on my car.

Hope you get it all worked out, bear. Sounds like a real ****ty company. I wont be buying exhuast from them.


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## facn8me (Jul 30, 2011)

I see they've made you out to be a liar and an idiot over there then closed the thread. Sad. They had them in thier possession. Did ZERO testing on them, sent them back but are now willing to warrenty them. hahahaha Sad yet funny.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Ok, sorry everyone. I'm letting my emotions get way too involved in this deal and I didn't want that. Time for me to just chill and keep my mouth shut.

Sorry.

Bear


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## 66tempestGT (Nov 28, 2009)

very disappointing the way this turned out.


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## ppurfield001 (Jan 21, 2008)

BearGFR said:


> I did ship them in, at my expense of course. When I talked to the tech the first time I explained that they'd stopped working on the car, and I'd removed them and confirmed that they weren't working off the car. I could tell by the questions he was asking me that he was looking for something he could pin on me.
> 
> Sure enough, earlier today when I called to find out the status on them and found out they weren't going to honor the warranty the guy I talked to kept referring to that first conversation and insisting that my testing had burned out the motors. The idea that I would have had no reason to test anything had they not already stopped working on the car didn't cut any ice with him, and things got really unpleasant and heated. He wanted to lecture me on how electric motors, switches, and circuits work and he kept insisting that the motor didn't need a ground at all to operate. I have a degree in Math with a minor in Physics so I think maybe I might understand a little about electricity and motor circuits...
> 
> ...




I had the same experience with RideTech Technologies when their air-ride suspension module stopped working three or four times. I also got very limited satisfaction when I returned the system. (I now have coil-overs.) Good luck.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

I made another attempt at communication, this time trying to stay factual and keep out the emotions. So far results are encouraging. We'll see how it goes.

Bear


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## jpalamar (Jul 22, 2008)

Best of luck. I've actually sent my buddy that works over at American Muscle(a HUGE Mustang parts place) a link to this thread since they sell Pypes products. I'm local to both AM and Pypes. I do know AM is s stand up company and won't sell parts that suck.

I'm curious to sell what he says to me in a few days.


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## facn8me (Jul 30, 2011)

Funniest part is.. You did make an incorrect diagnosis to begin with.. THEY ran with it. Of course pulling them apart BEFORE they looked at them would have voided any warranty. No way to win in that situation. Did they even take them out of the box you sent? I was amazed at the reponse they gave about you shorting the motors out, yet that was not even close to the problem. I can honestly say I'm glad I went magnaflow and hope to goodness I don't have any tri power problems. Did you know that over there there is not ONE reveiw of the tri power kit they sale? No good and no bad. When I called pontiactripower.com guy(as I had to buy more stuff to complete the complete kit) he told me to get my money back as fast as I could. Not very reassuring. Now I'm working my tush off attemtpting to get the 389 in as fast as I can before it's not their problem. Sucks to have to worry about a part because customer service is terrible.


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

Bear, you apologized twice yesterday...no need to--at all. In fact, I can't _ever_ recall you saying anything on this forum you'd need to apologize for...you've never been offensive, and you're not being a whiner. (wish I could say the same about myself!!) You're simply stating facts....and showing that you're human. I'm sure nobody here is offended!!!
Jeff


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## Hot_Rod (Feb 10, 2011)

Kidding me? I wouldnt be bothered about the emotion aspect. Thats your hard earned $$ you spent on their junk just to have crappy customer service? Sure you dont have to go overboard but I wouldnt hold back emotions. Specially when your deal is legit. 

I've def made up my mind about this company and I'll gladly spread the word about them. This is a terrible time to wanna screw customers in this rough economy!


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

UPDATE: I now have installed a brand new set of Pypes cutouts, including shipping, and all at no cost to me. I've confirmed they still have plastic gears in them. I'll be watching to see if this set lasts or suffers the same fate as the others.

At least Pypes finally tried to do the right thing, I just hate that I had to raise such a stink to get that to happen.

Bear


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## Uly49 (Jan 27, 2011)

BearGFR said:


> UPDATE: I now have installed a brand new set of Pypes cutouts, including shipping, and all at no cost to me. I've confirmed they still have plastic gears in them. I'll be watching to see if this set lasts or suffers the same fate as the others.
> 
> At least Pypes finally tried to do the right thing, I just hate that I had to raise such a stink to get that to happen.
> 
> Bear


Bear,
I purchased a set of these prior to having become aware of this thread....they have been installed already and the motor will be running in about 2-3 weeks....what did they say when you showed them the plastic gears? What is the difference supposed to be between what you originally had and the new cutouts? I am not happy about my purchase @ this point....
Thx, Scott...


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## geeteeohguy (Feb 2, 2008)

It seems like a stink needs to raised often these days to get anything resembling customer service. Glad at least there is some resolve here.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Uly49 said:


> Bear,
> I purchased a set of these prior to having become aware of this thread....they have been installed already and the motor will be running in about 2-3 weeks....what did they say when you showed them the plastic gears? What is the difference supposed to be between what you originally had and the new cutouts? I am not happy about my purchase @ this point....
> Thx, Scott...


There is no difference. These have the same gears those did. If I were you, I'd remove them and just run the plates until you've got your motor broken in good and you're sure it's not running lean. They're still saying that there must have been something abnormal about my engine that caused too much heat.... 

Bear


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Bear, Glad they made good. I have no experience with PYPES, but Chris at PERFORMANCE YEARS is a fair person. :cheers Eric


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

Of course theres something abnormal about your engine, it's a PONTIAC beast...... Plastic gears on a heated pipe that installs within a few feet of a violent volatile combustion...who woulda thought it would fail...:confused Leave it to engineers....looked good on paper...as in profit margin. Had them on my wishlist after seeing your set-up....not anymore. what type of motor do the have Bear, is there a way to remove and replace the gear...if so try a RC car place, they may have a gear in metal as some of those things put down some torque....just a thought from out of the box.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

This motor:

Gearmotor, 8.8rpm, 12vdc - Gearmotors - Gearmotors - 2L007 : Grainger Industrial Supply

Would be pretty much a direct plug and play replacement for what's on the cutout. It looks almost identical. However, it has at least one Delrin gear in it also. References I've found say that Delrin melts at around 350 degrees F.


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## Instg8ter (Sep 28, 2010)

what about some sort of heat sink?


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Instg8ter said:


> what about some sort of heat sink?


Yeah I thought about that, or maybe wrapping the gearbox with some of the same stuff I used underneath the carpet (Eastwood's "Dynamat" clone). That stuff would help with radiated heat, but not with head conducted through metal to metal contact with the rest of the exhaust system.

Heat sink might work better...

Bear


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## Eric Animal (Oct 28, 2007)

Bear, I know you had your heart set on electric cutouts, BUT...if these fail, would you consider removing the little motors and putting on levers with cables? Just an idea. Eric :cheers


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