# 68 - 69 Convertible Lemans - Popular for Collectors?



## shimelhoch (Dec 9, 2009)

Interested in opinions of the popularity among collectors of the 68 - 69 Lemans convertible. Overall, they seemed to have fairly low production runs:

1968 Lemans convertible - 8,820
1969 Lemans convertible - 5,676

I don't see many sales at auction or online and wonder if it is due to a lack of popularity or limited number or survivors (or both)? 

Thanks and Happy Holidays!


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## Shake-N-Bake (Jun 16, 2015)

My guess is limited number of survivors and those that are in need of restoration get cloned as a GTO.


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## shimelhoch (Dec 9, 2009)

I think you are correct that many get cloned as a GTO. That is one of the decisions I am facing with my current restoration of a 69 Lemans Convertible. It has the original 350 engine and TH350 tranny so I am inclined to restomod but keep it as a Lemans. Already changed the carb and intake to a 4 barrel.


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

Know of well over two dozen '69 LeMans & Custom S convertibles that are in long time owners hands, decent drivers, to 12 second stock appearing rides, none have been turned into Clown cars. The ravages of time have claimed a huge percentage of Tempest, LeMans, & more common drivetrain GTO convertibles. Many many relatively clean rear sheet metal Tempest & LeMans converts have been sourced to be professionally dissected, removing rear 1/4's, or complete rear convertible body tub, then selling off the convert frame, top frame, doors, fixable fenders, small parts.


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## jrs 427 (Aug 8, 2010)

Pinion head said:


> Know of well over two dozen '69 LeMans & Custom S convertibles that are in long time owners hands, decent drivers, to 12 second stock appearing rides, none have been turned into Clown cars. The ravages of time have claimed a huge percentage of Tempest, LeMans, & more common drivetrain GTO convertibles. Many many relatively clean rear sheet metal Tempest & LeMans converts have been sourced to be professionally dissected, removing rear 1/4's, or complete rear convertible body tub, then selling off the convert frame, top frame, doors, fixable fenders, small parts.


What exactly is a CLOWN CAR ? Never heard that expression before.

Why is there a question of collectability ? Either you like the mark or you look for something different. What it is worth years down the road is anybody's guess. It stands to reason a Lemans will never be in competition with Chevrolet. Way to many bow tie fans make the brand so popular. I don't see a problem with adding a GTO nose, hood, or additional parts. I purchased a 69 Lemans in the early 80s that already adorned these parts. The reason for the purchase was the low asking value, Arizona rust free, never wrecked, 350, automatic, and the folding roof. My daughter drove it when she received her license in high school. A great fun car without breaking the bank. No complaints about its identity. Just a fun summer ride. I am sure it retains the couple grand it cost. More like six times the pleasure it provided then and currently. I prefer driving it than any of the early 60s Corvettes in the garage. They may have classic lines but the Pontiac is a comfortable cruiser.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

jrs 427 said:


> What exactly is a CLOWN CAR ? Never heard that expression before.
> 
> Why is there a question of collectability ? Either you like the mark or you look for something different. What it is worth years down the road is anybody's guess. It stands to reason a Lemans will never be in competition with Chevrolet. Way to many bow tie fans make the brand so popular. I don't see a problem with adding a GTO nose, hood, or additional parts. I purchased a 69 Lemans in the early 80s that already adorned these parts. The reason for the purchase was the low asking value, Arizona rust free, never wrecked, 350, automatic, and the folding roof. My daughter drove it when she received her license in high school. A great fun car without breaking the bank. No complaints about its identity. Just a fun summer ride. I am sure it retains the couple grand it cost. More like six times the pleasure it provided then and currently. I prefer driving it than any of the early 60s Corvettes in the garage. They may have classic lines but the Pontiac is a comfortable cruiser.


Clone=Clown. Too many of these cars have been "cloned" into GTO's loosing their originality and desirability. Too many tried to do this to profit from it that leaves a bad taste for the true enthusiasts who value these cars for what they are. Its good you enjoy your car for what it is, a great driving Pontiac. Just know that the more people bastardize these cars the more the originals will be worth.


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## jrs 427 (Aug 8, 2010)

ALKYGTO said:


> Clone=Clown. Too many of these cars have been "cloned" into GTO's loosing their originality and desirability. Too many tried to do this to profit from it that leaves a bad taste for the true enthusiasts who value these cars for what they are. Its good you enjoy your car for what it is, a great driving Pontiac. Just know that the more people bastardize these cars the more the originals will be worth.


I have no idea how you come to this conclusion. Adding GTO parts to a Lemans which is basically a cheap version of a GTO loses their desirability ??? The EGO people will always have starch in their shorts to brag about being 100% original even though many have the quarters, doors, fenders, and floors replaced due to rust. Outward appearance to 80% of spectators applaud the body changes and have no idea what is a clone and what isn't. They really don't care . I am in the same league. I enjoy the appearance and would never be involved in converting back to stock for " originality purposes " . It may sell at the estate sale for five hundred or five thousand........ I certainly don't care. Yes there are flippers pawning off cheap basics for loaded GTOs. This will always be a problem as long as there is greed. I never worry about the remainder, only the dozen cars parked in my garage. Having them for decades makes the value a non issue. The view each day, ............. priceless !


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

jrs 427 said:


> I have no idea how you come to this conclusion. Adding GTO parts to a Lemans which is basically a cheap version of a GTO loses their desirability ??? The EGO people will always have starch in their shorts to brag about being 100% original even though many have the quarters, doors, fenders, and floors replaced due to rust. Outward appearance to 80% of spectators applaud the body changes and have no idea what is a clone and what isn't. They really don't care . I am in the same league. I enjoy the appearance and would never be involved in converting back to stock for " originality purposes " . It may sell at the estate sale for five hundred or five thousand........ I certainly don't care. Yes there are flippers pawning off cheap basics for loaded GTOs. This will always be a problem as long as there is greed. I never worry about the remainder, only the dozen cars parked in my garage. Having them for decades makes the value a non issue. The view each day, ............. priceless !



Agreed. That's why I took the 1967 Corvette split window I inherited from my dad and gutted it and dropped in a Pontiac 505 stroker and Lenco into it. People don't know or care that its a Pontiac engine or Lenco, they just think its a high dollar vette set-up for drag racing on the street. Who cares about rarity or value when you aren't going to sell it anyway. I say enjoy it any way you want and it gets a lot of lookers the way it is.. :thumbsup:


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## Pinion head (Jan 3, 2015)

PontiacJim said:


> Agreed. That's why I took the 1967 Corvette split window I inherited from my dad and gutted it and dropped in a Pontiac 505 stroker and Lenco into it. People don't know or care that its a Pontiac engine or Lenco, they just think its a high dollar vette set-up for drag racing on the street. Who cares about rarity or value when you aren't going to sell it anyway. I say enjoy it any way you want and it gets a lot of lookers the way it is.. :thumbsup:


A '67 split window Corvette....

lol, sorry to say, but that made my week Jim :x


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## shimelhoch (Dec 9, 2009)

Thanks for the replies. Maybe my initial question to start this post should have been about the apparent scarcity of the 68-69 Lemans Convertibles and why they don't show up often in auctions. 

For me, I plan to keep my 69 Lemans Convertible as a Lemans but add some performance and safety upgrades. From the outside it will look pretty stock including the rally II wheels. I have made minor tweaks under the hood such as adding a 4 brl carb and intake. At the end of the day for me its about collecting, not trying to turn a profit. Plus I like having a driver that I can wrench on.


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## jrs 427 (Aug 8, 2010)

Pinion head said:


> A '67 split window Corvette....
> 
> lol, sorry to say, but that made my week Jim :x


THAT is a rare car. I am sure there is mega value to a car that was never made. Must have made one heck of a drag car, with Pontiac heritage.
My split window Corvettes were on the production line in 1963, .... yes, both of them. Darn, either were blessed with Pontiac power.


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## tjs72goat (Jul 20, 2017)

I caught that too PH. I knew they made one in 63.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

Too many focus on the "value" of their cars IMO when most have more in them than they are worth anyway. 

The "value" I get out of my car is going out in the garage, twisting the key and hearing that V8 roar to life, then letting her warm up and listen to the idle sllooowww down and I know she's ready to go. My wife comes out and plops in the passenger bucket, buckles up and then we go. Wherever. We. Want. That's the value. The feeling I get when I'm cruising down the road in something NO ONE else has anything like. But they all want it. I know they do. They know how cool it is. That's the value for me. 

So. If you love to drive your car, no matter what it is. Just for the pleasure of driving it, letting it take you on great adventures, or working on it, getting greasy, or doing the research to find that correct part or going to the boneyard to find that critical item. Making it yours. That's the value, because face it, daily drivers aren't what they use to be. New cars lack any "personality"; guys don't name their cars anymore, they're just appliances.

/rant.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

"My split window Corvettes were on the production line in 1963, .... yes, both of them."

Well, la-tee-da, bully for you. I also own the first split window experimental car (see photo) designed by Harvey Earl while he was with GM. It was first designed in 1961 and is a 1-of-1 car. Zarkus Donovan (who also had a career as a singer and songwriter 



 ) designed the engine, the experimental "Mystery Motor," a Z-11 that did not debut until 1963. The engine was assembled by Mickey Thompson and it is said that Mario Andretti raced the car under closed course at Sebring.

It sets in my hermetically sealed and climate controlled storage building on my property. Occasionally I let it out on loan to the corvette museum in Bowling Green, KY. Some day I will put it up for auction with Barrett-Jackson. Estimated value is at 15 million. The car was scheduled to be destroyed and my father purchased it from the scrapper right off his rollback for $1800 in 1965.


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## jrs 427 (Aug 8, 2010)

PontiacJim said:


> "My split window Corvettes were on the production line in 1963, .... yes, both of them."
> 
> Well, la-tee-da, bully for you. I also own the first split window experimental car (see photo) designed by Harvey Earl while he was with GM. It was first designed in 1961 and is a 1-of-1 car. Zarkus Donovan (who also had a career as a singer and songwriter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLjyUySZAc4 ) designed the engine, the experimental "Mystery Motor," a Z-11 that did not debut until 1963. The engine was assembled by Mickey Thompson and it is said that Mario Andretti raced the car under closed course at Sebring.
> 
> It sets in my hermetically sealed and climate controlled storage building on my property. Occasionally I let it out on loan to the corvette museum in Bowling Green, KY. Some day I will put it up for auction with Barrett-Jackson. Estimated value is at 15 million. The car was scheduled to be destroyed and my father purchased it from the scrapper right off his rollback for $1800 in 1965.


Sounds like a TALL story to me. Who estimated the value at 15 million, ..... ? I am sure the car would be in numerous magazines if it was present and accounted for. Would love to see a copy of the VIN & trim tag.
I don't claim to have expensive 63s. Just two early production models I bought in the mid seventies. Nothing special, 300 hp 4 speed , power steering and windows, non crashed red on red and dark blue / blue. I also have a big brake fuel car along with a 66 427 425 hp coupe. There are more in the garage but I have been collecting them for decades when values were a little lower. They are not for sale so if they are worth a hundred dollars it good with me.
By the way, I love your reference to Zora Duntov ( Zarkus Donovan ) .... Was this a pen name for a writer. Any songs he wrote pop into mind ??????
I will send your picture to the museum to see if this car ever appeared. Love to see the write up they had for it.
Great find by the way.....


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

At least Jim posted a picture........>


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## jrs 427 (Aug 8, 2010)

ALKYGTO said:


> At least Jim posted a picture........>


YES, .... and what a wonderful rendition it is. There NEVER was a 63 coupe, production or pre production with rear quarter windows, 57-61 side cove trim, 53-62 outside trunk access panels, ( except modified Grand Sports ) fancy aluminum wheels and the concept of four exhaust pipes under the license plates began in 2000 plus modified cars. The picture is fake, photo shopped, as someones total custom idea. I have been buying Corvettes since 1963. Currently own seven of the older generation. Looked at hundreds of cars, read many informative books. and believe zero percent of your information. Any one can talk , write, brag or be a story teller. There never was a Corvette regardless of year or model that crested 15 million. I have no idea what dream you have but I have two production cars that are real fiberglass, not pictures on paper.


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## shimelhoch (Dec 9, 2009)

I think this thread has drifted a bit off topic.......Go figure


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## jrs 427 (Aug 8, 2010)

ALKYGTO said:


> At least Jim posted a picture........>


Super Chevy has a full article on the 61 Corvette " restomod " owned by Mike Walker of Macon Il. Car has 100 miles on it since complete rebuild. 
" JIM " is a total fraud stating he owns this car.


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## ALKYGTO (Mar 29, 2010)

jrs 427 said:


> Super Chevy has a full article on the 61 Corvette " restomod " owned by Mike Walker of Macon Il. Car has 100 miles on it since complete rebuild.
> " JIM " is a total fraud stating he owns this car.



Oh no! Say it ain't so Jim........:surprise:



Mods....please consider banning this member because he ADMITS he reads Super Shivvy.


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## jrs 427 (Aug 8, 2010)

ALKYGTO said:


> Oh no! Say it ain't so Jim........:surprise:
> 
> 
> 
> Mods....please consider banning this member because he ADMITS he reads Super Shivvy.


Trying to broaden my scope. It seems anything in the GM family interests me......... EVEN GTO's. Can't say they will replace the current crop of early fiberglass 60s creations. How does one improve on perfection ? Don't share a lot of pictures but honesty ranks very high on the list.


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## tjs72goat (Jul 20, 2017)

Nothing wrong with a Cheby! I've owned my 55 sedan delivery (6 year frame off resto done by me in my garage and finished in 2013) for 40 years this year. Also a 75 Camaro I've owned three months longer than the 55. They're GM! Also a 46 Willys Jeep I restored. A 80 Fiat Spider I restored (poor man's Ferrari). Now I work on my 72 Lemans convertible with all GTO options from factory. Nothing wrong with diversifying a bit!!


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## jrs 427 (Aug 8, 2010)

tjs72goat said:


> Nothing wrong with a Cheby! I've owned my 55 sedan delivery (6 year frame off resto done by me in my garage and finished in 2013) for 40 years this year. Also a 75 Camaro I've owned three months longer than the 55. They're GM! Also a 46 Willys Jeep I restored. A 80 Fiat Spider I restored (poor man's Ferrari). Now I work on my 72 Lemans convertible with all GTO options from factory. Nothing wrong with diversifying a bit!!


Beside my Lemans convertible I have a 63 Belair Post two door I am working on. One of my first cars was a 64 Impala sport coupe 327 / 300 hp manual transmission. Eager to get back behind the wheel. Posts are difficult to find but worth the hunt. No desire for Chrysler or Ford examples. Always have, always will have the GM mark of excellence . Probably brain washed but it feels like the right direction to travel.


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## shawnstyer02 (26 d ago)

jrs 427 said:


> What exactly is a CLOWN CAR ? Never heard that expression before.
> 
> Why is there a question of collectability ? Either you like the mark or you look for something different. What it is worth years down the road is anybody's guess. It stands to reason a Lemans will never be in competition with Chevrolet. Way to many bow tie fans make the brand so popular. I don't see a problem with adding a GTO nose, hood, or additional parts. I purchased a 69 Lemans in the early 80s that already adorned these parts. The reason for the purchase was the low asking value, Arizona rust free, never wrecked, 350, automatic, and the folding roof. My daughter drove it when she received her license in high school. A great fun car without breaking the bank. No complaints about its identity. Just a fun summer ride. I am sure it retains the couple grand it cost. More like six times the pleasure it provided then and currently. I prefer driving it than any of the early 60s Corvettes in the garage. They may have classic lines but the Pontiac is a comfortable cruiser.


My 1969 Pontiac Lemans ws bought wit a GTO hood, replaced the 350 and put in a Stroker 383,possie tracktion 353 gear ratio dual exhaust, and rechromed bumpers, she is very clean


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## 66COUPE (Jul 23, 2021)

jrs 427 said:


> I have no idea how you come to this conclusion. Adding GTO parts to a Lemans which is basically a cheap version of a GTO loses their desirability ??? The EGO people will always have starch in their shorts to brag about being 100% original even though many have the quarters, doors, fenders, and floors replaced due to rust. Outward appearance to 80% of spectators applaud the body changes and have no idea what is a clone and what isn't. They really don't care . I am in the same league. I enjoy the appearance and would never be involved in converting back to stock for " originality purposes " . It may sell at the estate sale for five hundred or five thousand........ I certainly don't care. Yes there are flippers pawning off cheap basics for loaded GTOs. This will always be a problem as long as there is greed. I never worry about the remainder, only the dozen cars parked in my garage. Having them for decades makes the value a non issue. The view each day, ............. priceless !


I thought the term “clown car “ was first used the the judges arrived on the scene with in 69 with the wild paint and psychedelic judge decals ect. I love em but that’s what I remember.


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