# Please Help: Cannot get GTO to start



## nuggets (Apr 27, 2011)

I have run out of ideas on what to do. 

69 GTO, 400, mostly stock. only major changes are electric fans and high amp alternator. Engine was rebuilt roughly 18 years ago with stock parts, however this was done with a previous owner

The car was sitting for 8 years. I drug it out, replaced the entire fuel system, rebuilt the carb, new steering box, distributor, and drove it for 6 months. 

Took a nice 150 mile drive when on the way home it starting spewing oil everywhere, but I could not figure out from where. Made it home, parked it, next morning could barely get it to start. When I did it would run fine at idle, but I get 30 seconds down the road and it starts to sputter and backfire like the timing is off. Put it in park, wait a minute and it cranks and idles just fine, then 30 seconds later same thing. 

check my spark, its weak, so new distributor. While I was at it, new wires, plugs and coil. Strong spark to al plugs. 

In the process I found the oil leak, headgasket leak between the number 1 and 3 cylinder. I go to crank it one more time to check the new distributor, it runs, but then the fuel pump eccentric breaks. So great, ill replace that while I have the heads off. Timing chain had about an inch slack on each side (yikes) so i replaced with a double roller.

New headgaskets and fuel eccentric later, and i cannot get it to crank. It gets soo close to turning over, sputters and its right on the very edge of cranking but just doesnt get all the way there. 

I do not know what else to do here. Great spark, timing was set at TDC, plenty of fuel, carb is squirting. I have played with the timing back and forth to try to find a sweet spot but i cannot. 

I should add that i only lost about 2.5 quarts of 7 from the oil leak. 

sorry for the long post but I have no ideas left. I should note that i drove this engine as a daily driver before sitting in storage for all that time.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

My best guess is that when you put it all back together after replacing the timing chain, your distributor is now 180 degrees out and the plug is firing near TDC exhaust instead of near TDC compression. Disconnect your ignition, remove #1 spark plug (driver side front), and either hold your thumb over the hole or put a bit of cloth/paper towel into the hole. When it blows out/off, that's TDC compression. Wire your distributor accordingly. 1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2 and remember Pontiac distributors turn counter clockwise. 

When you installed the new chain, did you line up the timing marks so that they were pointing directly at each other (12 oclock - 6 oclock) or did you do it with both at 12 oclock? Either way is "correct" but 12-6 puts #1 cylinder at TDC exhaust while 12-12 puts it at TDC compression, so you have to 'remember' when reinstalling the distributor and wiring the plugs. 

Bear


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

Yes a 180 out distributor will act just like that…….agree


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## Autie1969GTO (Mar 5, 2019)

Are you 100% sure you lined up the timing chain gear marks correctly?


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## Autie1969GTO (Mar 5, 2019)

Autie1969GTO said:


> Are you 100% sure you lined up the timing chain gear marks correctly?


OOPS! Bear already suggested this also. Sorry. My buddy's Goat had the same issue after he went through the motor and wouldn't run. Tried the 180 trick and everything under the sun having to do with ignition/timing/electrical. It kept acting like it wanted to fire. Checked timing a millon times and kept asking him about the timing chain gears for over a week. He swore up and down they were installed correctly. I finally convinced him to take off the cover an low and behold, he lined up the gears wrong. If I remember correctly (this was about 20 years ago), on the LOWER GEAR, there were 3 different keyways for "Advance"/"Retard"/ and "O" stock. The lower gear itself had markings on the face of the gear and ALSO on the teeth. He lined up the marking on the keyway with the "dot" on the large cam gear instead of the teeth markings. Made the correction and it fired right up. If your engine ran prior to you replacing parts, a good place to usually start is going over your work for proper installation/loose, un-connected wires, etc.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Depending on what diagram you may have used to align the "dots" on the timing gears, the early Pontiacs used one position whereas I think it was 1967 and up it was changed to be the other position. Either will work, it just changes your plug wiring location on the cap. As I recall, the No.1 plug on the engine will get positioned 180 degrees out putting that plug wire on the cap into the No.6 position. Once you put the No.1 engine plug wire into the No. 6 spot on the cap, just follow the Pontiac firing order counter-clockwise around the cap - 1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2 .


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## Autie1969GTO (Mar 5, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> Depending on what diagram you may have used to align the "dots" on the timing gears, the early Pontiacs used one position whereas I think it was 1967 and up it was changed to be the other position. Either will work, it just changes your plug wiring location on the cap. As I recall, the No.1 plug on the engine will get positioned 180 degrees out putting that plug wire on the cap into the No.6 position. Once you put the No.1 engine plug wire into the No. 6 spot on the cap, just follow the Pontiac firing order counter-clockwise around the cap - 1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2 .


The timing chain that my buddy used was an aftermarket Edelbrock(?) true double roller. Maybe they have changed now? I am 100% sure it had multiple markings on the lower gear which caused his dilemma.


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## BearGFR (Aug 25, 2008)

Autie1969GTO said:


> The timing chain that my buddy used was an aftermarket Edelbrock(?) true double roller. Maybe they have changed now? I am 100% sure it had multiple markings on the lower gear which caused his dilemma.


Multiple markings on the lower (and upper) gear is typical of timing sets that allow installing the cam "straight up" (factory specs) and also selecting from a fixed number of slightly advanced or slightly retarded settings. If the correct "pair" of markings aren't used on both gears during installation, then that can definitely cause problems.


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## Dukes67 (Jun 19, 2018)

nuggets said:


> I have run out of ideas on what to do.
> 
> 69 GTO, 400, mostly stock. only major changes are electric fans and high amp alternator. Engine was rebuilt roughly 18 years ago with stock parts, however this was done with a previous owner
> 
> ...





nuggets said:


> I have run out of ideas on what to do.
> 
> 69 GTO, 400, mostly stock. only major changes are electric fans and high amp alternator. Engine was rebuilt roughly 18 years ago with stock parts, however this was done with a previous owner
> 
> ...





nuggets said:


> I have run out of ideas on what to do.
> 
> 69 GTO, 400, mostly stock. only major changes are electric fans and high amp alternator. Engine was rebuilt roughly 18 years ago with stock parts, however this was done with a previous owner
> 
> ...


Just a thought? When you replaced the distributor did you replace it with the original (points and condenser type) or did you change it from points and condenser to an HEI? The wiring on the two types of distributors for 12 volt continual running power differs. The points and condenser style is routed through a ballast resistor during normal operation. The HEI is wired directly to 12 volts (no resistor). In both cases though during start (ignition key start position) power is supplied to the ignition only through a wire routed from the starter solenoid (to aid in full power during start). If you’ve changed it from points and condenser to an HEI the ballast resistor is now bypassed and the 12 volt ignition wire is connected directly to the HEI distributor and at the same time the wire from the starter (on stock wire harnesses it’s usually the purple wire) is tied in with the 12 volt ignition wire and these are now plugged together into the HEI 12 volt plug. If the wire from the starter is not providing power or is wired improperly while the key is in the start position the engine will not start as there is no power reaching the distributor, but once the key is brought back to the run position it will then start providing power again to the distributor. When this happens the engine will crank and crank and not start and during the instantaneous moment the key is released it will usually back fire or kick over for a second. Either way I would verify that the starter/coil wire is operational and wired correctly.


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## nuggets (Apr 27, 2011)

Thanks for the input everyone. Timing gears are ligned up in the 12-6 position. Double checked when I installed because I did not want to take the cover back off. 

And y'all are correct, the lower gear did have options for advance and retard but I placed it o slot.

As far as the timing being out 180, I switch the distributor around and it was backfiring out the exhaust scaring the neighbor's haha. This is also a oem points type, no aftermarket hei. I am getting strong park to all plugs while cranking. 

Doesn't help that it wasn't really running well before I did all this either after my long trip


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

nuggets said:


> Thanks for the input everyone. Timing gears are ligned up in the 12-6 position. Double checked when I installed because I did not want to take the cover back off.
> 
> And y'all are correct, the lower gear did have options for advance and retard but I placed it o slot.
> 
> ...


OK, so this is narrowing it down. Timing is good, firing order is not out.

Have you tried havin someone crank the engine as you move the distributor a little each way? I have had the experience where you set the timing mark to where you want it, should be about 9 degrees on your balancer, and then match my rotor position to the cap and figure, "yep, that should do it." Then it does nothing. The rotor fires the spark plug ahead of where you would think it needs to be. So by rotating the distributor, typically advancing it, or turning it to the right, can get the engine to fire up. You obviously have fire as it backfired for you.

The Pontiac distributor rotor rotates counter clockwise, or to the left as you stand in front of the engine looking at it. If you turn the distributor to the left, you are chasing the rotor with the cap which is retarding timing. If you turn the distributor to the right, you are turning the distributor cap into the rotor sooner, which is advancing your timing.

To do this, simply snug down the distributor hold-down/bolt just enough that you have to use a slight amount of muscle to turn it - not so tight you can't, and not so loose that it is real easy.

If that does not work, pull a couple pugs and make sure they are not "wet" with gas. An engine that has wet plugs will not fire as wet plugs are too much gas - and it means you have a flooding condition that you need to look into. To clear the cylinders, as long as you don't have gas pouring from a leak in the carb, put the pedal to the floor and hold it open. Have the choke fully open. Then crank the engine for about 20 seconds. Give the starter a small break, then repeat, but DO NOT lift your foot off the gas pedal. Each time you pump the gas pedal, you squirt more gas into the carb/intake and you are right back to square 1 with a flooded engine. You are trying to clear the cylinders by pumping in fresh air and evaporting some of the extra gas to a point where it will fire. If after cranking the engine 5-6 times and it does not catch, it may be necessary to remove the plugs and dry/clean them off. Gap should be .030"- .035" on the plugs - and no more with points.

Bad condensors have been issues at times. Even the "new" condensors can be bad. Best to try and get a set of NOS Delco points/condensor off Ebay as these seem to work best. But, you say you have a strong spark at the plug, so all should be good in that respect.


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## nuggets (Apr 27, 2011)

I have done that with the distributor as well. Turned it every so slightly back and forth both ways until it would pop out of the carb and backfire in both directions. The sweet part I can find is the one where it is close to starting. 

I have noticed my plugs are wet a couple times but I have also inadvertently tried your method as well. Not sure if I tried it long enough though.


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## Colorado67GTO (Sep 11, 2014)

I will just throw this out there. When I attempted to start my engine for the first time, I had the same problem. It turned out to be compression because I didn’t have my valves adjusted correctly and wasn’t getting enough compression. Since you had the heads off, you would have had to adjust the valves. Pontiac valve adjustment is different than others, depending on your set-up. It may be worth a compression test.


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## Lemans guy (Oct 14, 2014)

All well said, I would also add that you are starting a cold engine, and difficult cold engine starts are often choke related. Make sure that your choke is set correctly, the gap on the air horn the tension on the spring that holds the choke closed should be set correctly.

It can be very difficult to start a cold engine with an improper choke. It can be done, but it is harder and more frustrating.


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## An0maly_76 (Dec 25, 2021)

+1 on the compression test, but another thought. I once crossed two wires on a tune-up. I was fortunate that the engine started and ran, but it had ZERO power. Took me all afternoon to figure that one out. Might try double-checking your plug wires, and as mentioned in another thread here, the Pontiac firing order is counterclockwise. Could that have tripped you up here?

In relation to the compression test... Carbon deposits on intake and exhaust valves would definitely cause some of what you're experiencing. As for the oil, well, my old man's '69 Judge had a block that was poorly honed prior to rebuild (not his doing) that resulted in serious blow-by -- literally blew the dipstick out of the tube, whole left side of the car looked like it was on fire.


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