# Tempest or GTO?



## theleos7 (Sep 18, 2007)

We are in the process of restoring a 1970 what we thought was a Tempest or a Lemans until we were looking up the vin number. When we purchased the car 15 years ago, the original Ohio title said GTO, but the body of the car says Tempest and the Body number plate says its a Lemans. We always thought it was a mistake on the title, and always considered it a Tempest or Lemans. We are the second owners of the car, the original owner died and his daughter sold us the car. What exactly do we own? We know it isn't a GTO because the body style. It was all original when we purchased it. The Vin number is 242370B128623. The Body Plate is ST70 23537 PON 176898BDY TR 246 45 45 PNT 05C. Does anyone know anything that can shed some light on this? We were told it was never restored. What exactly is it?


----------



## macgto7004 (Jul 22, 2007)

Hmmmmm,
This is an interesting one.
Based on the VIN you supplied, 242370B128623
2 = Pontiac
42 = GTO
37 = 2 door hardtop
0 = Year (70)
B = Baltimore (assembly Plant)
128623 = Production Number.

So, based solely on the VIN, it looks to be a GTO.

BUT...........................

Based on the body tag: ST70 23537 PON 176898BDY TR 246 45 45 PNT 05C.

ST70 = Model Year
2 = Pontiac
35 = Tempest Custom
37 = 2 door hartop
PON = Assembly Plant (Pontiac Michigan)
176898BDY = Body Number
TR = Trim Combination Number
246 = Unknown Interior color
45 45 PNT = Paint Combination (upper/lower) in this case, Palisades Green
05C = Build date May, 3rd week 

Conclusion: Something is amiss here.

Either the VIN is not right, or the body tag, or the body for that matter, may have been replaced.

Best bet would be to run the VIN through PHS and see what comes up. The fact that it shows two different assembly plants is intriquing. 
This car has obviously been apart at some point in it's 37 year life.

Is the car indeed Palisades green? Or can you find evidence that is was once that color or a different color?

Keep me posted on how all this pans out. I love a good mystery!

Russ


----------



## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

That is strange, someone changed one or both of the plates. Here are a few things that may help identify the origin of this pontiac.
Check out the vin on the engine and frame, the frame vin number is located on the top of the frame on the drivers side behind the rear tire about the middle of the trunk. 
Vin and data plates use rivets that were unique, post pictures of both plates.
Post all numbers from the engine, compare the build dates from the engine and transmission to the data plate build date.

Good luck,


----------



## macgto7004 (Jul 22, 2007)

:agree with Randy.

Though the engine block number is not always right, find the VIN number on the frame and see if it matches the VIN on the body.

That will at least get you moving in the right direction.

Russ


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

If the car`s vin number tag matches the Title vin ID #, then couldn`t you assume it was a GTO to start with? You can change tags, change frames, change bodies, but you can`t change the vin # on the title, right?


----------



## macgto7004 (Jul 22, 2007)

Rukee said:


> If the car`s vin number tag matches the Title vin ID #, then couldn`t you assume it was a GTO to start with? You can change tags, change frames, change bodies, but you can`t change the vin # on the title, right?


You could assume that, yes. 
It would make you wonder though, what would posses someone, who owned a genuine GTO, to put a Tempest body on the car. Unless it was rebuilt after a wreck and the firewall was replaced with the body tag intact, from a Tempest. 
I have heard of someone taking a Tempest and making a GTO clone, but a GTO made into a Tempest clone??  

I would love to research the history on this car to find out what really happened.

Russ


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

Could be anything, tree fell on it at one time and they threw a Tempest body on or somethin......


----------



## 67/04gto (Jan 15, 2005)

someone whiched the plates


----------



## GTJoe (Jun 28, 2006)

macgto7004 said:


> It would make you wonder though, what would posses someone, who owned a genuine GTO, to put a Tempest body on the car. Unless it was rebuilt after a wreck and the firewall was replaced with the body tag intact, from a Tempest.
> I have heard of someone taking a Tempest and making a GTO clone, but a GTO made into a Tempest clone??
> 
> Russ


 That would make it the perfect sleeper.wolf in sheeps clothing.


----------



## Redevil06 (Sep 10, 2006)

*Tag job?*

Back in the 60's and early 70's "tag" jobs were a common way to get a stolen car registered.

Someone either had wrecked GTO, or bought a wreck and replaced the car with a stolen Tempest Lemans.

They took the VIN tag from the GTO and put it on their "acquired" Tempest since it looked similar. They may have even switched over some GTO markings to make it look good.

I knew someone back then who had a Pontiac 421 2+2 with tri-power. He beat the car up so bad it was useless. He got a stolen Catalina and now had a new car through switching the tags. He kept repeating this over and over with the same tag, as he beat up the new car and needed another one, sometimes even using Bonnivilles instead of Catalinas. He was crazy and eventually went to jail for something.

The old car was gotten rid of through a auto junk yard which didn't ask questions or just left on some street in a bad neighborhood (the local car strippers took care of the rest). 

It's probably near impossible to do the same thing today with all the indentification markings on a car.

BTW, many of these cars were later sold and no one knew what was done to bring it back to life. It was just a car to the the seller and buyer, nothing special about a Lemans. It's sometimes hard to tell if it's a true "tag job", some even reused the rivets for the tags or got replacements that matched the originals. The less exact ones used plain rivets because the value of the car didn't warrant such perfection. No one was going to look closely at a Lemans.


----------



## GTO JUDGE (May 14, 2005)

*First thing I thought of was a reconstruction. But if the title changes hands, it should be documented on it, if not, that's a major problem for the seller.
Like others stated, all the vin tags should match, if they do but the body don't, somebody is being less than honest about the history of this car. *


----------



## Rukee (Feb 8, 2007)

...or they just don`t know. It is possable the daughter, and even the guys wife didn`t know about the repair. No need to think anyone is being dishonest. Afterall, it was presented as a Tempest that happens to have a GTO title, not a GTO body with a Tempest Title. I`d get the Title VIN documented by PHS and then try to find a body tag to match and have it rebuilt to whatever specs PHS says the car is.


----------



## Jackalope (Sep 12, 2007)

Could be one of those cars where someone took two wrecks and made one car out of it. He'd have kept GTO on the title for the value.

Regardless of what happened, I think you've got major pieces of two different cars there. I agree that you need to find the frame number, but I'd be looking for evidence of major structural damage and repair while you're digging under there.


----------



## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

Ok, theleos7 got me wondering about my car. I have A '68 gto, At least that's what the title/v.i.n. sez. Nothing about the running gear is '68. Motor is a '73 455, tranny is half '67 and half '69 saginaw and the rearend is a pretty lame '71. I knew about the motor and verified myself upon purchase, but was told the rest of the running gear was '68. Shame on me. Still, not a real biggy. Wasn't looking for a numbers matching car. No data tag. Have PHS doc. Said it was Verdoro green w/white interior 4 speed. Can see original verdoro color under deck lid, front fender mounting lip under hood. Found some white(excuse me, parchment) dyed interior pieces. In fact, I was given the original parchment interior. It does have a 4 speed, but was told it may have been added. You can see a new after market 4 speed mounting plate welded in the tunnel. PHS said it to have a center console. Not there but the mounts are.Has a lot of the "distinctive GTO equipment" that's listed in my id numbers decoding book for '64 - '74.
Here's the rub. I checked the numbers on the frame behind the drivers rear wheel. They are as follows. 3908663 27(not sure if the first # is a 3 or 8, there's a drilled hole next to it. Below those numbers is 3 25 s1. Have no idea how to decode these. Can anyone help?


----------



## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

68greengoat said:


> I checked the numbers on the frame behind the drivers rear wheel. They are as follows. 3908663 27(not sure if the first # is a 3 or 8, there's a drilled hole next to it. Below those numbers is 3 25 s1. Have no idea how to decode these. Can anyone help?


The vin for the frame should be the last 8 digits of the cars vin. The first digit is for the model year, the second is the letter code for the assemble plant and the remaining 6 would be the sequence vin number. I don't know what the 27 is for and the other code is probably the date code which is March 25. s1 should be the year.


----------



## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

I noticed you said earlier that the numbers are on top of the frame. I'm guessing you didn't mean literally? The ones I found were on the side. The 27 is actually 127 and is seperate from the other number. As it is with the 8908663 I only have 7 numbers. I guess the first 8 may be a B if it's supoosed to be a letter and the first # is not visible due to a exhaust bracket that has been partially welded. At any rate, the last 6 digits are not even close to the v.i.n. Looks like maybe a junk GTO was found, V.i.n removed and transferred to a tempest/lemans and titled out as a GTO. By the time I'm finished, it will be a resto-mod with a lot of aftermarket upgrades anyway. The motor was rebuilt right b/4 I bought it and runs strong along with new paint. Since there wont be many GTO parts on it except badges when I'm done, everything being modified, maybe it wont be too big of a deal down the road if and when I sell it Live and learn...............


----------



## 05GTO (Oct 6, 2004)

The vins on my 66 and 67 are actually on the top of the frame, I believe the 68 was on the top as well. It is almost impossible to read with the body on the car.


----------



## 68greengoat (Sep 15, 2005)

Maybe what I'm seeing are not the right numbers. That would be good in my case. Like you said, may be impossible to see without the body being raised. Thanks for your help....


----------

