# Stock & Super Stock Pics



## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

I've got hundreds of pics of Pontiac Stock & SS cars, some when they were new cars, all the way up to present day. 

I'll post a few of the older pics first. Then, if there is any interest in seeing more, I'll add some more, 'til I get all the decent ones posted.

If there is no interest, I'll just stop & forget it.

I'm NOT a Pontiac expert, by any means. But, I like Stock/SS Pontiacs, & I have LOTS of pics. May be one of the biggest stash of Pontiac Stock/SS pics anywhere. Don't know.

Some of these cars are famous in Pontiac racing history. Some were just raced locally.

So, I'll begin with some GTO's, from years gone by. Some are rather famous, in Pontiac circles. Some were class & race winners, and some were record holders.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

I don't think there is a guy on here who won't enjoy these. Keep them coming!


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## dadspackard31 (Dec 2, 2019)

Jared said:


> I don't think there is a guy on here who won't enjoy these. Keep them coming!


I agree, keep posting.


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## pontrc (Mar 18, 2020)

X3


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Where is the book? I want one.


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## 66COUPE (Jul 23, 2021)

pontrc said:


> X3


Bring em up. Cool 👍


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

" Keep them coming!
I agree, keep posting."

OK

Since this is a GTO forum, I'll begin with some '64 GTO's. Because the auto trans in the '64-'66 GTO's was a 2-speed, I haven't run across many of those auto equipped models as serious drag cars. But, I did find one '64, named "Lil 2 Speed". I also have another pic of it, with several trophies it won. So, I suppose it was a serious drag car. 

From the pics I've found, most of the 4-speed Tri-Power '64 Stockers ran B/S. 

Here are 9 of the '64 GTO's I have pics of. I'm sure there were lots of '64's running at small tracks all over the country, in the mid '60's. The last 2 pics are of the Gay Pontiac 3-car rig. I thought it deserved 2 pics. Gay Pontiac fielded some pretty strong running Pontiacs. The '62 Cat won the A/S class at some big races. As many know, Don Gay went on to drive some Funny Cars, some of which were Pontiac powered.


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## GTOTIGR (May 3, 2020)

Great pictures bidD!

I’m sure I’m not the only one curious as to how you amassed such a nice collection. Would you mind sharing your story? 

Either way, thanks for the nostalgia, please keep them coming.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

PontiacJim said:


> Where is the book? I want one.


Don't have 'em in book form. It's just LOTS of pics, in LOTS of folders, on my Chromebook.

But, I'll continue to work 'em up into posts, and will eventually have a few hundred here, unless I'm stopped for some reason, or this site shuts down.

Obviously, not all my Pontiac Stock/SS pics are of GTO's. I assume it's OK to include other Pontiac A-bodies, like Lemans, T-37, Lemans Wagons, & '74 Venturas, along with the GTO's ?

What about other Pontiacs, like Birds, Big Cars, & Pontiac powered GT Super Stockers. I'll post as many or as few different Pontiac body styles as ya'll want.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

bigD said:


> Don't have 'em in book form. It's just LOTS of pics, in LOTS of folders, on my Chromebook.
> 
> But, I'll continue to work 'em up into posts, and will eventually have a few hundred here, unless I'm stopped for some reason, or this site shuts down.
> 
> ...


Do 'em all. Who doesn't like ALL Pontiacs? If it is a Pontiac and Pontiac powered, bring it on!


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...curious as to how you amassed such a nice collection. Would you mind sharing your story?..."

Don't mind sharing my story, at all. But, I'll try to give a VERY short version in this post. 

Was driving an 18-wheeler down the road, back in 2004. Next thing I knew, I was in the ER. They were asking me what had happened. I didn't have a clue. Seems I'd blacked out, while driving down the road, and the truck had gone down in the ditch & up onto a railroad track. 

I wasn't seriously injured, but because I'd had what they called a "seizure", I couldn't drive a commercial vehicle for 10 years. So, I had plenty of time to kill. At that time, all I knew about a computer was which part the "mouse" was & why they call it that. I decided to build a low budget bracket car. But when I tried to order some parts catalogs, like I used in the old days, I discovered that most all the "catalogs" were now online. So, I started going to the local library to learn how to use a computer. Even took a class there. And a guy who worked there was very patient with me & helped me learn the basics I needed to go to the parts sites. 

Then a Pontiac friend helped me find a good buy on a '74 Ventura bracket car, from racingjunk.com. He also told me about the PY Pontiac forum. I didn't know such sites existed. There, I found out about how to look up info on current NHRA Stock/SS drag racing results. I also discovered that lots of Pontiac drag car pics can be found by a simple Google search. 

Then I discovered that lots of racers have FB pages, on which they post pics of their cars. Then there a FB pages about Stock & SS drag racing, which have lots of pics. Well hey, this is getting too long already. Let's just say I've been downloading Pontiac Stock/SS pics from every source I have found, for several years now. With all the pics of cars & parts I have, I had no idea these little Chromebooks had that much storage. But I just keep stuffin 'em in here. 

OK, I'll stop now.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Here's some '65's. 

Check out #10. How many SS/K '65 GTO ragtops have ya'll seen ?


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## GTOTIGR (May 3, 2020)

Thank you for sharing bidD!

Glad to hear that you weren’t hurt, at least severely (it seems). We appreciate you offering the collection you’ve compiled - definitely the right place...

Cheers


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Here's some '66 models. Seems the '66 Tri-Power GTO's did pretty good on the track. The Royal & Knafel '66 models ran really strong, & I suppose are the most famous of all the '66 GTO drag cars.

These are 10 of my favorite '66 pics. Somehow I especially like the pic of the Knafel 2-car rig, shown in pic #9. Appears to be 2 '66 GTO's, with slightly different paint schemes. Between these 2 cars, they won lots of trophies in '66. I have what I assume is a famous pic of one of 'em with trophies sitting all over it. I refer to it as the Knafel "Trophy Car". I'm sure I'll post it in a later post.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

For some reason, I have not found a lot of good pics of '67 Stock & SS GTO's. I assume the reason is that the Firebird came out in '67, & more Pontiac racers went with a Bird, rather than the GTO.

Since I don't have a lot of good '67 pics, I'll begin this post with 2 more pics of Knafel '66 GTO's. The 2nd pic is of one of 'em before it got a fancy paint job.

Pic #3 is of a '67 which was running Super Stock. I think it ran a few races, back in the late 20th century. I'll look it up & post a link to a Q-list. The driver was Jay Cason. I think somebody told me who owned the car, but I forgot.






Drag Race Central | Presented by Summitracing.com


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





Can't think of any '67's I've run across that were running Stock, this century, or even the last part of the 20th century. Actually don't know when the last competitive '67 GTO Stocker was active.

As can be seen in the last 2 pics, the Limelighter '67 was a nat record holder. Those last 2 pics were taken at a recent car show.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Will start the '68 GTO post with the Hurst Shifter 'vert.

Some of these were obviously run in the earlier years. Some in the 21st century. 

I think 2 of these pics are of the "Wild Turkey" car, which I think belonged to Don Turk, long time Pontiac racer, who I'll mention a couple of more times in this thread. 

The car in the #9 pic set a nat record, in the 10's. IIRC, I read it was the 1st Pontiac powered GTO Stocker with a record in the 10's. And, it is the only '68 GTO Stocker I'm aware of that is still actively racing. The new owner is doing some engine repairs/upgrades over the Winter, including a new cam. The man's daughter does the driving. They have been running bracket, but saw this car for sale & decided to give Stock Elim a try. 

The car in pic #10 also made the US Nats 128 car field, at least a couple of times. The owner is Tim Gillespie. I'll mention him again, later in the thread. He runs a Pontiac powered Super Gas car. He also has a 10-sec '68 Bird Stocker which I'll cover, later.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Well, there have been LOTS of '69 GTO Stockers. Lots of Pontiac dealers either fielded or sponsored '69's, especially Judge models.

So, I'll break this into probably 3 posts. This one will be for Judge models, that were what I call "orange". The next post will be for Judges that were not orange, along with some that were orange, but the pics are b&w.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

OK, I think these 1st 2 were orange, but the pics are obviously b&w. 

Then we have some that were black, white, silver, & custom. 

The last 3 pics are of the black Judge which Royce Fowler bought new. We took these pics @ Amarillo, back in around 1976. The race was the IHRA World Nationals. The car was running an IHRA SS class which allowed an aftermarket hood scoop. That's why you see a hood scoop on it. It has been restored for the show circuit. 






1969 PONTIAC GTO RA IV Packin' Poncho- Royce Fowler


One Owner Collector Car chronicles domestic cars from the musclecar eras of the past and present.



www.oneownercollectorcar.com


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Here are some non-Judge '69 GTO's.

IIRC, Dave Pruden was the E/S class winner @ Indy '73.

Angeles & McCarthy ran a '69 in SS. I think it went thru several paint changes. There were some pics of it in at least one of their Pontiac Musclecar Performance books. You can see it at the top of the front cover, in this ad. 



https://butlerperformance.com/i-24452939-pontiac-musclecar-performance-book-by-pete-mccarthy-bpi-pmp.html



Pics 5 & 6 are of my original '69. #5 was in '73, when I 1st started racing it on a regular basis. Pulled it to the races with a 4-door '68 Caddy & a tow bar. #6 was after about half the '74 season, & included all the trophies I'd won. I'd already pulled the engine & put it into a '68 Bird, for my girlfriend to drive. But, there'll be a lot more about her racing, later in the thread. I wanna cover all the Pontiac powered GTO's first, since this is the GTO site.

A real clean 1st class '69 GTO belongs to Art Peterson. It has also gone thru several paint changes. Here are 2 of 'em.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

bigD said:


> Here will be some non-Judge '69 GTO's.


I think it would help if you had a post that explained the Super Stock requirements, and what the different classes were and how you chose what class to run. Pull out your rule books from the past.
Let's see how the GTO began when the Super Duties first came on the scene, and Wagner raced for Royal and introduced the "Bobcat" option assembled by Royal Pontiac. And we can't forget Arnie Beswick in the early mix.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

PJ, I don't have any old rule books. I've found some you can pull up online.

But, as for your suggestion, that sounds like a good idea.

BUT, since this is the GTO forum, I'm gonna first post pics of all the years of the Pontiac powered GTO. Will also include other A-bodies, such as the '71 T-37 & '72 Lemans, and will include the '74 X-bodies. And, since I have lots of pics, that will take a while.

Then, AFTER I'm through with all that, we'll go back & start with some '56 model Pontiacs & slowly work our way up. That will certainly include the big win for Jim Wangers, when he won the "Mr. Stock Eliminator" title at the NHRA Nationals, in a '60 Pontiac.

It will also include discussions of the 'Top Stock" & "Jr. Stock" classes, which will include the FX classes as well as the various S/S classes, which eventually became Super Stock. I'll even talk about & post pics of the Pontiac powered dragster win @ INDY '62. And we'll talk about the big rules change that NHRA made to Stock, for the '72 season. We'll discuss weight break changes & NHRA horsepower factors.

No, I don't have all the answers. But, I now know where to get the answers to most questions that can come up about Stock & SS history, from guys who were there & experienced it.

I welcome all legitimate questions & contributions. If a question comes up that nobody here has the answer to, I'll do my best to find the answer. BUT, for a while, I'll be busy organizing, sizing, & posting pics. As mentioned, I have hundreds. So, it takes a while to sort 'em & decide which ones to post.

I think most Pontiac guys will enjoy this thread, even if they never plan to do any racing. Unless(until) I win the big Powerball jackpot, I can't afford to race. So, I'll spend as much time as I can adding to this thread. Won't take but a few weeks to post quite a large number of Pontiac Stock & SS drag pics here.

Eventually, this thread will be a good source of Pontiac pics & racing info. I'll also try to keep up with the current NHRA major race qualifying lists & results that involve any Pontiac V8 powered class car. Results are usually available for the division races & national events. Smaller race results are sometimes harder to find.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Here's some '70 models.

Kathy's Clown was driven by Ray Stover.

Ya'll may remember seeing a "Big Iron" car on one of the '69 GTO pages. Rod Kister used this name on a '59 Pontiac nat record holder, as well as a '69 & this '70 Judge.

The Knafel Judge was run mostly in AHRA, IIRC. I think both IHRA & AHRA had at least 3 different classes you could run with a Stocker, maybe more. I've read that you could run a 2-barrel carb, a single 4-barrel carb, or multiple carbs. Don't know all the specific rules that applied back then. But the Knafel Judge set several records in 1970.

Pic #9 shows a '70 Stocker which is still active. It is driven by Todd Kuhn. I believe it is powered by the D-port 455HO engine, with #64 heads.

Pic #10 is of a still active SS GTO. It's driven by Bill Eadelis.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Here's a mixture of '71 GTO's & T-37's. 

One of the most famous is the GTO driven by M.i.c.k Leiferman. It was a nat record holder for 5 years running, & was RU @ Indy 3 years running,'75-'77. That may still be a record. That '77 Indy final was All-Pontiac, against Mike McKinney. But we'll cover that in more detail later on.

The Rock Running T-37 is still active, being raced by Don Turk.

The White brothers ran several strong Pontiacs, in both Stock & SS.

Scott Underhill held the E/SA nat record @ 10.75, a few years back, in his T-37. The 455HO engines have always been very competitive.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

Holy crap, these are great! Once you get all your pictures loaded on here you should ask any members who race to share track pics of their cars.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Jared said:


> Holy crap, these are great! Once you get all your pictures loaded on here you should ask any members who race to share track pics of their cars.


That'll be fine with me. BUT, it will have to be of serious Stock or Super Stock cars, ONLY. NO bracket racing pics !

If anybody wants to post pics of bracket cars or street/strip cars, they need to start a different thread, for those. This thread is for info about Pontiac V8 powered cars that have or currently do race in a class, such as Stock, Super Stock, & maybe even Super Gas & Super Street, but not bracket. Back in the old days, most all the local tracks ran Stock & Super Stock. But, somewhere just after the mid-'70's, most local racks switched over to all "Dial Your Own" bracket racing, with classes like Super Pro, Pro, No-Box, Street, etc.

Nowadays, MOST Stock & Super Stock racing is done at NHRA division races & national event races. But there are some tracks that sometimes host special Stock/SS events. Sometimes the 2 classes will be combined, which is called a "Stock/SS Combo Race".

I'd like to see results of Pontiac powered bracket race winners & RU's. BUT, just NOT in this particular thread.

I hope somebody will start & maintain such a thread. It would be a great place to not only report Pontiac powered race wins, but also post pics of the cars that got the wins, AND to post flyers & info about upcoming big money bracket races. I started such a thread on another Pontiac forum along with some big race flyers, hoping there would be enuff bracket racers who would contribute to the thread, to keep it going. There was very little support. So, I won't start another Bracket thread. Somebody else will have to do it, if it gets done.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Here are some '72 A-body Stocker pics.

The '72 GTO Stocker in the 1st 2 pics was built by Gary Wood & driven mostly by his wife Charlene Wood. Charlene was recently voted into the NHRA div 1 Hall of Fame. Gary built & raced lots of Pontiacs. Charlene drove several of 'em, winning div & nat event races, setting nat records, & getting class wins at big races. But, I'll talk a lot more about Gary & Charlene after I get through with the Pontiac powered A & X-body Stock/SS cars.

The next car shown, in pics 3 & 4, is the Axemaker & Reuland '72 GTO Stocker. One of the Axemaker bros drove it some. More recently it was driven by Sam Reuland.

Next is a '72 GTO Stocker driven by Ray Hunt, of Mid America Speed Centers.

Next is a '72 GTO Stocker that was driven by Todd Hoven. He won a nat event, and got an Indy class win with it, in 2008.

At Indy, he qualified #7 @ 1.223 sec under his NHRA index.






INDY - Stock Eliminator Qualifying, Final Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





Here's the Indy class win. He ran an 11.022, which was more than 1 1/4 sec under his G/SA NHRA index.






INDY - Stock Eliminator Final, Round 4 Class Eliminations


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





And here's the event win @ the Carolinas Nationals. He was running H/SA. So, he had apparently added weight, in order to run a lower class. For most Stock classes, you are allowed to either add weight to run a class lower, or remove weight, to run a class higher. So, most cars can run any of 3 classes.






CHARLOTTE - Stock Eliminator Final, Round 7 Eliminations


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Next up is a red '72 Lemans. Larry Maxwell ran some high 10's in it. It is now driven by Stephanie Pike. Here's a 10.791, good enuff for #9 position. On this Q-list you'll notice that there are several other strong running Pontiacs. We'll talk about all these cars later in the thread. 






PHOENIX - Stock Eliminator Final Qualifying, Session #2 Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





The last car in this post is another '72 GTO. It was first raced by Truman fields, in '72, in Super Stock. Truman then sold it & it was raced for a couple of years in Stock, setting at least 2 Stock records. Driver is listed as John Corcoran. I don't have a good pic of it, when it was being raced as a Stocker. So, pic #9 is of the H-O Racing Specialties newsletter in which it was a feature car. Then pic #10 is a pic of it when Truman was still running it in SS.

I think the power for most of these cars was provided by 455HO engines. But Todd Hoven posted that he was running the D-port 455.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Now for some '72's that ran Super Stock.

The winningest one I know of belonged to Sonny Ray. He won at least 2 nat events & set a nat record with it himself. And David Rampy drove it to his 1st nat event win, @ the '83 Cajun Nats. My girlfriend took this 1st pic, @ the '78 Cajuns, IIRC.

Truman Fields got a factory deal & ran a '72 GTO, in SS/K. Set a nat record with it. Then, as I've mentioned, it was sold & ran Stock for a couple of years.

Don't know much about the Car in pic #8, except that it's marked SS/KA, & the name on the door looks to be "Challenger".

The White bros won class @ Indy, with their '72.

The car in pic #10 looks good. I think it's the car that Phil Szupka raced for a while.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Well, before we leave '72 A-bodies, I think this is the perfect place to talk about Gary & Charlene Wood & their "Tons-a-Fun" '72 Lemans wagons.

Here's the link to an article which has some good details of the Wood Pontiac racing operation. Gary built, raced, & sold quite a few Pontiac Stockers. His part of the story begins about half way down the page.









Pontiac History - Wagon Masters - High Performance Pontiac Magazine


A historical look at Pontiac history when the Wagon Masters were drag racing Pontiac wagons - High Performance Pontiac Magazine




www.motortrend.com





Now, about the wagons. I have some pics which show the T-41 type front cap on it. Also have some pics which show it with a reg Lemans front cap. I asked Charlene about it. She said that there were TWO different wagons. The 1st one had the T-41 cap & a 455HO engine. After she'd won the Grandnational race, set the nat record, & got some class wins, Gary decided to sell the wagon, which he did.

But, not long after that, he bought another '72 wagon, which had a Lemans cap on it. Charlene confirmed that Gary did indeed swap to the D-port 455, & also added a 3rd seat, in order to make it more competitive.

Charlene did most of the wagon driving. But Gary drove it some, too. She said that she had to run Gary a couple of times, when he was driving his '72 Bird.

Then Gary sold the 2nd wagon & built the '72 GTO, I've already mentioned. Charlene said that neither wagon exists today.

Charlene, Gary, & the "Ton-a-Fun" wagons are still some of my Pontiac heroes. I've already mentioned that Charlene was inducted into the NHRA div 1 Hall of Fame, a couple of years back. 









South Glens Falls Dragway


Local racers Gary and Charlene Wood with their strong Pontiac wagon.Got their start at SGF and went on to be major players in the stock eliminator ranks.Got a few minutes to scroll through this album...




www.facebook.com


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Well, that brings us to 1973. In my opinion, it was a bad year for the Pontiac A-body !

That rounded off tail section was really ugly, in my personal opinion. (Opinions differ)

Bout the only good thing I can say for the '73 A-body is that they got the 8.5" 10-bolt rear.

But, there were a few guys who raced 'em. Since there were so few, I'll include the '74 A-bodies in this post. This includes Lemans, GTO, & Grand Am models.

What always come to my mind when I think of the '73 GTO is the car mag that had the SD455 powered '73 GTO on the cover, as their "Car of the Year". Although it didn't come to pass, for some reason, NHRA will allow several '73 A-body models, & even the GP, to run the SD455 engine.



http://www.classracerinfo.com/EngineCarList.aspx?ENGINE=2080



Not sure how many A-bodies ever ran an SD455 in Stock/SS competition, but John Clegg ran one in a GP, for a short time.

Right off, M.i.c.k Leiferman is the only guy I can think of that ran a '73 GTO in Stock.

Bob Michael was involved in a couple of A-body SS cars.

Don Elgin & Don Turk both ran a '74 GA. Don Elgin still runs his, up in div 6. Another racer in div 3 is now running Don Turk's GA. Don Turk could run nearly a sec under his index.






ST. LOUIS - Stock Eliminator Qualifying, Session #1 Order


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He got the N/SA Indy class win, in '16, against a quicker car.






INDY - Stock Eliminator Class Eliminations Finals


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www.dragracecentral.com





Tommy Brown runs a strong '74 Lemans Stocker, out in div 7. @ the '16 Winter Nats, he qualified #8, @ nearly a sec under his index.






POMONA 1 - Stock Eliminator Final Qualifying, Session #3 Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com


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## Jetzster (Jan 18, 2020)

bigD said:


> " Keep them coming!
> I agree, keep posting."
> 
> OK
> ...


Great stuff!😁


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Before movin on, I'll mention a '74 I forgot. It's a Lemans wagon, raced by Gary Riley, in div 5. He won the Mile-High Nats with it, in 2019. I'll also mention that the final was All-Pontiac, with Dwaine Davis' '74 Formula in the other lane.






DENVER - Stock Eliminator Final, Round 5 Eliminations


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





The 4X head 400 engine has proven very competitive in Stock Eliminator racing. We'll see just how competitive, when we talk about '74 Firebirds.


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## 4856ronaldp (Nov 9, 2020)

PontiacJim said:


> I think it would help if you had a post that explained the Super Stock requirements, and what the different classes were and how you chose what class to run. Pull out your rule books from the past.
> Let's see how the GTO began when the Super Duties first came on the scene, and Wagner raced for Royal and introduced the "Bobcat" option assembled by Royal Pontiac. And we can't forget Arnie Beswick in the early mix.
> 
> 
> ...





bigD said:


> I've got hundreds of pics of Pontiac Stock & SS cars, some when they were new cars, all the way up to present day.
> 
> I'll post a few of the older pics first. Then, if there is any interest in seeing more, I'll add some more, 'til I get all the decent ones posted.
> 
> ...


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## JeffC (Sep 29, 2021)

bigD said:


> I've got hundreds of pics of Pontiac Stock & SS cars, some when they were new cars, all the way up to present day.
> 
> I'll post a few of the older pics first. Then, if there is any interest in seeing more, I'll add some more, 'til I get all the decent ones posted.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for showing the pictures I definitely enjoyed them!


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Breaking News !

I've asked the question on several sites as to exactly when NHRA changed the rear end rule, which then allowed any 10-bolt Pontiac to use a GM 12-bolt rear end. 

Here's the best answer I've received. 

"...The rule as printed in 1981 reads..."Original rearend may be replaced with another from same automobile manufacturer. Distance between backing plates may not be changed. Any gear ratio may be used that fits third member case or housing. Limited slip or ratchet-type rearends are accepted. Locked rearends not permitted. Reinforcement of spring perch permitted. Spools permitted only with aftermarket axles."..."

So, IF 1981 is indeed the 1st year that rule was in effect, then the answer to my question is 1981. 

So, does anybody here have a 1980 NHRA rule book, to see what the Stocker rear end rule was, for 1980 ? 

I assume that before that rule went into effect, the only A & F-body Pontiacs which could use a 12-bolt would have been those 1970 models that came with a 12-bolt from the factory. Assume that all 10-bolt only cars were stuck with the 10-bolt, til the new rule went into effect.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

OK, I'll move on up now from the '74 models. But, right now, I can only think of two '75-'76 model Stock class Pontiacs, and they're both Birds. which I'll mention later.

But, there have been LOTS of 1977 & '78 model Pontiacs run in Stock/SS. The 6x-8 head 400's have been VERY competitive. There have been so many of the '77 400 Birds that ran quick, NHRA has now hit them with a big hp factor. BUT, in every other '77 400 powered body style, the NHRA hp factor is only 260hp. That makes the 6x-8 head 400 powered '77 A-body a very competitive combo.





__





EngineSpecs






www.classracerinfo.com





Therefore, there have been several strong running '77 Lemans Stockers. One of the earliest I remember reading about was raced by Kyle Riley. Jack Larsen ran it for a while. Then I think it was Jack's bro Wayne who raced it, 'til he passed. Don't know if it will be raced any more, or not.

The one I'm most familiar with was built & raced by long time Pontiac racer, Bob Michael. He then sold it to another long time Pontiac racer, Dave Ribeiro. Bob then built a '77 Catalina, using the same 260hp 400.

The '77 GP can use this same 260hp factored 400. Don Himes ran one of these. Lauren Kanuik has been running it for the past few years. If I had to run a non-Bird '77 body style, I'd want a Can-Am. I think one would look cool in Stock Eliminator trim.

I'll go ahead & add this Stocker here. It's run as a 301 4-barrel '79 Lemans. It's the only non-turbo 301 powered Stocker I'm aware of. Don Himes drove it 'til he passed. Billy Nees drives it now.


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## Tripster389 (Mar 25, 2020)

bigD said:


> I've got hundreds of pics of Pontiac Stock & SS cars, some when they were new cars, all the way up to present day.
> 
> I'll post a few of the older pics first. Then, if there is any interest in seeing more, I'll add some more, 'til I get all the decent ones posted.
> 
> ...


You have the HAIR RAISED on the back of all our Necks with Goose Bumps!
Please Keep the ADRENALIN Flowing with these Pics……
Time Machine Back in the Sixties….
PONTIAC BLOOD LINES ……💪
THX 👍


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

OK, that takes us up thru the last 400 powered A-bodies. So, let's go back now to the early years of Pontiac drag racing. The earliest models I've found a few good pics of are the '56 models. I think some '56's may have set nat records. Even have pics of one that was an Indy class winner. I'll post the best '56 pics I have. 

Because I don't have many '56 pics, I'll also include pics of a couple of '57 models. John Thropp drove a couple of quick '57 Pontiacs.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

The '58 models were very competitive. There were several that did really well. Some of the big names connected to '58's were Jay Hamilton, Gene Brown, Mary Ann Foss, & the biggest was probably Ramon Lowe. Lindy Lindholm is another '58 racer, who's name will come up again, when we talk about the 2nd gen Birds. 

The '58's got class wins, nat event wins, div points championships, & set nat records. I think some ran FI, but most ran Tri-Power.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

For the '59's, I chose 6 pics to post, and finished out with '60 model pics. I have some more really strong '60 models to add, in the next post.

As ya'll can see, Red Nevins was the 1965 div 4 Jr. Stock Eliminator, in his '59 Pontiac.

The Royal Pontiac '59 "Hot Chief" was a 13 sec car & got a win at the East Coast version of the Winter Nats. NASCAR had a hand in that race, as they partnered with NHRA.

East Coast Drag Racing Hall of Fame


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Here's some serious '60 model Pontiacs.

I've already mentioned the Rod Kister "Big Iron" GTO's. Well, before those, he had a '60 model with the same name. It was a nat record holder.

Ronnie Broadhead did real good with a '60 model.

I suppose one of the most famous is the '60 "Hot Chief" that Jim Wangers drove to the win at the Nationals race, held near Detroit. In the famous pic, it's an All-'60 Pontiac dual. Jim won the title of "Mr. Stock Eliminator".

There were other '60 models that won races & set records.


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## geto (Sep 6, 2021)

bigD said:


> Don't have 'em in book form. It's just LOTS of pics, in LOTS of folders, on my Chromebook.
> 
> But, I'll continue to work 'em up into posts, and will eventually have a few hundred here, unless I'm stopped for some reason, or this site shuts down.
> 
> ...


*Any pics of the famous "Cheese" ...i forget the last part of the nick name for the BIG Ponchos they drilled the frames with 4" hole saws?*


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

geto said:


> *Any pics of the famous "Cheese" ...i forget the last part of the nick name for the BIG Ponchos they drilled the frames with 4" hole saws?*


"Swiss Cheese"


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

bigD said:


> "Swiss Cheese"


Wow how did that frame not twist into a pretzel, why didn't they at least have a bottom to that frame for a box...amazing.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

There were a lot of strong '61 models.

I'll begin with one from my NHRA div 4. Gary Moore won the '68 div 4 Stock title, then set a new nat record at the '69 Winter Nats. Gary would later drive other strong Pontiacs, as we'll see when we get into the 2nd gen Birds.

Earlier, there were lots of '61's which ran in the Top Stock classes. The husband & wife team of Lloyd & Carol Cox ran some '61's, which I think were sponsored by Mickey Thompson. Carol was the S/SA class winner at both the Winter Nats & @ Indy, in '62. NHRA would not let women drive, in '61. So, Lloyd drove & won S/SA. 

Several Pontiac dealerships sponsored '61's. I've read that some of the '61's came with SD engine parts in the trunk, which could be used to make more power. These parts were legal, for a few years.

Will have at least one more post about '61's.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> Wow how did that frame not twist into a pretzel, why didn't they at least have a bottom to that frame for a box...amazing.


Hmmm. You were not aware of the "Swiss Cheese" factory Pontiac racers? Factory Super Stock racing was a hot item in the early sixties. Aluminum front ends, factory drag engines, 421CI Tempests, and so on. This is what sold cars and the factories were all over it and used specific dealers to promote their cars/racing. Pontiac did it through Royal Pontiac who also had a race team that went around the country to various drag strips to race. 1966 was the highlight of the Super Stock racing and probably why more GTO's were sold in 1966 than any other year. Pontiac engineers were also in competition with Olds engineers. In 1966 the factory "Ram Air" XS GTO engine/option came out and Olds had a like car in the 1966 Olds 442 W-30 (very bad-ass). Both cars were purpose built and low production numbers.






Ultimately it was the Chrysler boys and their Hemi that mopped up and took many of the wins and titles as they had an engineering department that was just to support the racers. They dominated the track so much in heads-up racing that that was when NHRA changed the rules to favor other makes/cars and introduced Bracket Racing. Pissed a lot of the Mopar racers off and the factories slowly withdrew backing when a Ford Pinto could beat a Hemi Challenger.

Check out this website, bigD and his Pontiacs are found here as well.





__





CLASS RACER FORUM - Powered by vBulletin


Class Racer, Class Racing, Class Racing forums



classracer.com


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

PontiacJim said:


> Hmmm. You were not aware of the "Swiss Cheese" factory Pontiac racers? Factory Super Stock racing was a hot item in the early sixties. Aluminum front ends, factory drag engines, 421CI Tempests, and so on. This is what sold cars and the factories were all over it and used specific dealers to promote their cars/racing. Pontiac did it through Royal Pontiac who also had a race team that went around the country to various drag strips to race. 1966 was the highlight of the Super Stock racing and probably why more GTO's were sold in 1966 than any other year. Pontiac engineers were also in competition with Olds engineers. In 1966 the factory "Ram Air" XS GTO engine/option came out and Olds had a like car in the 1966 Olds 442 W-30 (very bad-ass). Both cars were purpose built and low production numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes was aware just can't believe that frame held up with so many holes and no bottom to the frame with all the torque.


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## Axle (Sep 5, 2020)

bigD said:


> I've got hundreds of pics of Pontiac Stock & SS cars, some when they were new cars, all the way up to present day.
> 
> I'll post a few of the older pics first. Then, if there is any interest in seeing more, I'll add some more, 'til I get all the decent ones posted.
> 
> ...


Outstanding photos. Keep them coming. I’m sure everyone is enjoying them and appreciates your efforts.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"... the Chrysler boys and their Hemi that mopped up and took many of the wins and titles as they had an engineering department that was just to support the racers. They dominated the track..."

Yeah, Most of the Pontiac racers lost factory support. Mopar was right there to offer their support to the good racers. Lots of former Pontiac drivers switched to Mopar. Ford also provided some racer support.

But, the Pontiac guys were mostly on their own, with some help coming from only a few Pontiac dealers. A few top Pontiac racers got some support, mostly in parts, out the back door. There were lots of dealers that either fielded or sponsored cars. Royal, Knafel, Gay, & Packer are 4 of the big name dealers that fielded competitive cars.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Here are some more '61's. 

The season Stock points champ won a '61 Pontiac. He set a nat record with it. Then, as the story goes, he tried to get some warranty work done on it, after he was told it was not under warranty. When warranty work was refused, he got mad & put a stock engine in it & sold it as a street car. Because of this, no more cars were given to points champs. 

The "White Lightning" car was a nat record holder. We'll see 2 more "White Lightning" cars, later in the thread. 

How 'bout some indoor racing ?


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Baaad65 said:


> Yes was aware just can't believe that frame held up with so many holes and no bottom to the frame with all the torque.


You were relying on the strength of the body. Remeber, they had cars that were uni-body and didn't have full frames, so maybe that was where the thinking came in. Check out the aluminum 3rd member at the rear end. It was all about saving weight.

When the "FX" classes came about in 1962, many cars were fiberglass bodies made to look like stock. I learned that myself as I always thought they were production "steel" bodies. That was how some of these cars pulled out really low 1/4 mile times - they only weighed 2,000-2,200 pounds. I think the FX class was one of the best, along with the Double A Fuel Altered class - and Willie Borsch.









NHRA Drag Racing: The Rise and Fall of Factory Experimental


Before dying out, the NHRA’s Factory Experimental drag racing class transformed a stock-based class into the sports most radical form of racing in five short years.




www.motortrend.com





Looks like NHRA is resurrecting the FX class for 2022 - should be very cool.









Factory X presented by Holley exhibition class to debut during 2022 season


NHRA has announced an exciting new Factory X (FX) exhibition racing class for the 2022 season. Known as NHRA Factory X presented by Holley, the FX category will bridge the gap between Factory Stock Showdown and Pro Stock.




www.nhra.com


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

'62 was a big year for Pontiac drag racing !

The '62 421SD engine was, & still is, legal for Stock Eliminator competition. So, there were quite a few run.

Also, the 421SD could be run in the A/FX '62 Tempests, in Top Stock. Mickey Thompson's '62 A/FX Tempest got the A/FX class win @ Pomona & Indy that year. Hayden Proffitt was driving @ Pomona. The car was wrongly marked FX/A. Lloyd Cox was driving @ Indy. It had the correct A/FX marking, there. In '62, there were only 2 national events. So, M/T's A/FX Tempest made a clean sweep of the class !

Although this is a Stock/SS thread, I simply MUST mention that a Mickey Thompson Pontiac powered dragster beat Don Garlits' 413 Mopar powered dragster in the final, to win the '62 Indy dragster title.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Here's some '62 Big cars, in various Top Stock & Jr. Stock classes.

Several nat record holders & class winners in this bunch !


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Here's some more '62 pics.

I consider pic #9 "Famous". It's the Don Gay '64 Indy A/S class winner pic. But, I've recently been told that he was actually DQ'd @ that race, for illegal mufflers. Can't verify any of it.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

While havin a little snack & thinkin about my next post, the thought came to me that I need to post some more info & pics of Don Gay.

I've been searching out this info now for several years. So, I think that sometimes I tend to sorta seem to think that most other Pontiac guys know a lot about Pontiac drag racing history, & those who made it.

But, when I stop to give it a little more thought, I realize that many, if not most, Pontiac forum members actually know little to almost nothing about the history of Pontiac powered Stock & Super Stock drag racing.

And, that's quite understandable. In most areas there is not a track that runs Stock/SS. So, many of those who know anything about drag racing know mostly about bracket racing, because that's all they've seen.

So, with this in mind, I've decided to look some more at Don Gay, & the Gay Pontiac racing operation. For those who don't know, Gay Pontiac was located in the Houston, TX area, in Dickinson. Don & Roy Gay were sons of the dealership's owner.

Don't have a clue how many Pontiacs they eventually had, total. But, from a pic I posted in the '64 GTO section, we know they were racing a '62 Catalina, a '63 Tempest Wagon, & a '64 GTO, during the same time period. They also later had some Pontiac bodied Funny Cars, some of which were Pontiac powered. But, for this thread, we're only interested in the Stock & SS cars.

I have lots more pics of Don & the '62 Cat. So, I'll post some of 'em. A guy that did a lot of the work on the drag cars was an employee named James Osteen. He may have been over the shop. Don't remember for sure, right now.

Here's a video which has Don on it winning the A/S class @ Indy '63. At the 1:30 point, Bill Abraham runs in the A/SA class final, followed by Don, in the A/S final.






Here's the story of the restoration of the '62 Cat.









1962 Pontiac Catalina Super Duty – Patina Of Preservation — PontiacV8.com


This Super-Duty Catalina Was Driven To Two Major Championships By Gay Pontiac . . . And It Looks Like It




www.pontiacv8.com





The Gay hauler, with the '62 cat & '64 GTO are shown in the first few secs of this video. Close-up pics of the GTO are from about 1:45 to the 2 min mark.






I don't know if they had 2 1962 Cats, or if the one with Roy Gay on it is the same one Don drove. Maybe Roy drove it 1st, then it was passed on to Don. Then Roy got the '64 GTO. Don't know for sure.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

Mickey Thompson was more into drag racing and then began producing parts for Pontiacs. Here is an ad for the Hemi heads. "Brutus," the 1965 GTO built by Lew Arrington and Jim Lieberman ("Jungle Jim" fame) used a MT Hemi headed Pontiac.

Don Gay's brother Roy also raced Pontiacs.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...Here is an ad for the Hemi heads..."

Pretty sure that no Stock or Super Stock Pontiac ever ran any M/T Hemi heads.

But, I assume that the M/T Dragster that won @ Indy '62, WAS using M/T Hemi heads. Don't know of any other races that were won by cars using M/T Hemi heads. But there may well have been some. That's way out of the realm of this thread. I only wanna deal with Stockers & Super Stockers. I did mention the Indy dragster win, because it was such a rare thing for a Pontiac powered dragster to win any nat event, especially Indy.

To me, some of the A/FX & B/FX cars didn't seem to be either Stock or SS cars. BUT, they were classed in "Top Stock" & I assume they ran against S/S, S/SA, SS/S, OS/S & similar classes. All those classes are a bit confusing. But, back then, they had "Top Stock" & Jr. Stock, rather than "Stock" & Super Stock". IIRC, it was 1967 when NHRA established a separate "Super Stock" class. The FX cars had got so wild that they became "Funny" cars.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

I must now apologize to all the X-body fans here. While talkin about the GTO's, I went up thru the years talkin about the A-bodies & completely forgot about the '74 GTO & the other Pontiac powered X-bodies.

I'll correct that, today. The '74 Pontiac powered X-bodies have been VERY competitive in both Stock & SS classes. There have been LOTS of nat record holders, class winners, & even an INDY winner. And I have lots of good X-body pics.

The '73 & '74 X-body could come with a 350 Pontiac engine. But, according to NHRA, the '73 can run a 2-barrel, only. And, it's a fairly small 2-barrel. So, the '74 model is the better choice for Stock/SS racing. Doesn't have to be a GTO. Can be a plain Ventura, with a flat hood. Don't know what the NHRA hp factor for the engine was, back in '74. In this century, NHRA has bumped it up to a ridiculous level. This is primarily due to the performance of one particular GTO, which I'll cover in detail later.

My X-body story will begin @ Indy, in 1974. Truman Fields had won the year before, in his '68 Bird, which I'll also cover in detail later. So, I assume that he was there, trying for a repeat. There were also several other Pontiac racers @ Indy in '74.

But for now, I'll just talk about 2 Pontiac powered X-bodies at were there. One was a flat hood Ventura, running O/SA, driven by Al Vanis. The other was a '74 GTO, running O/S, driven by Rock Running. Ya'll may remember that I mentioned Rock as having raced a '71 455HO powered T-37, which is still racing today. Well, before he had that car, he raced this '74 GTO.

Well, I'm happy to report that Al Vanis won StocK Eliminator @ Indy '74 ! It was a Pontiac repeat of the year before ! 

In the winners pic, you can see Al's Ventura in the near lane & Rock's GTO in the far lane. When I 1st saw this pic, I assumed that Rock was RU. But, I later found out that the pic was not from the final round of Stock. I was hoping it had been an All-Pontiac final. But, Rock did pick up the O/S class win. Both these guys would pic up nat event wins, later on. But, I'll get to that later.

Al's car was named "ILL-LEGAL". Rock's car was named "Super Sleeper".


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Here's 3 more '74 GTO's.

The 1st one is shown with a class win @ Indy.

Not sure of what wins the 2nd one had. Most all these cars were raced by more than one owner. I've been known to post pics of 2 cars that looked very different, because of the paint job or some other change that had been made, then somebody would post that it was the same car as "so & so" had. So, I'll just say right now that I'm not sure how many owners these cars have had.

The 3rd car was raced by Larry Maxwell. Ya'll may remember that name from the '72 A-body post. He raced a 455HO powered '72 Lemans. He also had a '72 Bird that his wife drove some. He still has a car which we'll mention later. I have these pics labeled as one from the '81 NHRA World Finals & the other from the '82 WF. IIRC, I think he may have been RU @ one of 'em. Not sure. I'll try to look that up sometime, if I can think about it.

I just noticed something about the Git-Go pics. Some were taken in different time periods than others. The numbers, lettering, & decals are not the same in all the pics. The driver name on the window is Chuck. But I can't make out the last name.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Here's 2 more X-bodies.

The 1st one is rather unique, I think. It was raced by Jack Matyas. Appears that when he 1st started racing it, he was running it as a '73 model Ventura, with a 2-barrel Pontiac 350 engine. I say this for 2 reasons. One is because in pic #1, it has the 4-section grill, like the earlier Vent 2's had. From what I can gather from online pics, that 4-section grill was still available in some '73 models, but was replaced with the 2-section grill some time during the model year. So, in that pic, it couldn't be run as a '74 model.

The other reason is because it was only running in Q class. The 2 X-bodies that were running @ the '74 US Nats were running in O class. Cars weren't allowed to add weight to change class, back then. So, in order for a 2-barrel Vent to run Q, with a 4-barrel 350, NHRA would have had to LOWER the hp factor, quite a bit. They don't often do that. In fact, the hp factors usually increased as guys made their cars go quicker. 

From the pics I'll post, you can see that the car was apparently still running Q class in '76, even tho it had been painted & had the later style 2-piece grills. While still marked in Q class, it had writing over the doors saying it was a nat record holder.

At some point, it got the GTO shaker hood & grill lights. In this trim, it ran a higher class. So, to me, that pretty much proves that for the 1st few years Jack raced it, it must have had a 2-barrel. 

The other car pictured is a GTO, which, according to the writing on the fenders was a nat record holder for 5 years in a row.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Here's a few more.

It's my understanding that this 1st one is the same car that Rock Running drove to the O/S class win @ Indy '74. Dave Pruden owned it when these pics were taken. You can see that it went thru a few cosmetic changes. Ya'll may remember that Dave got an E/S win @ Indy, in his '69 GTO. Not aware of what he won with this car. Found 7 decent pics to post.

Pic 8 shows a Yellow car @ Indy, which has a div 4 number on it. I'm not certain, but that may have been, Raymond Simmons, from Arkansas. I'll try to think to do some checking on that. No guarantees. 

Pic 9 is "Walton's Mountain". It belonged to Bruce Walton. Bruce also had a big Pontiac Stocker which was also named "Walton's Mountain", that to me was quite unique. I'll post a pic of it later in the thread.

Pic #10 shows John Force riding shotgun in a GTO, as it drives thru the pits.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Now let's look at what has been the most competitive '74 GTO ever. It has been raced by Bill Rink, for quite a while. He started out running Stock. He has always maintained it as a 1st class race car. His engines are built by Parsons & Myers. They have built lots of really quick Stock & SS engines.

By his own admission, Bill singlehandedly brought the horsepower police down on the '74 GTO Stocker. Instead of somewhere around 250hp, where it should be, it's now up to 277hp. That's 2hp more than the '74 4-barrel 400 engine ! The 350 gives up 50 cubes & NHRA gives it more hp.



EngineSpecs





EngineSpecs



And, how 'bout this ? The '74 350 gets 17 more hp than the '77 400, unless the 400 is in a Firebird.





__





EngineSpecs






www.classracerinfo.com





But, anyhow, Bill went on a tour of races across the country, with his GTO Stocker. He was most always very close to the top of the qualifying list. And he got lots of class wins, including at the US Nats. Probably set several nat records along the way. Definitely ran strong enuff to catch the attention of the NHRA hp police. So, they added hp to the combo, to the point where Bill decided he could no longer be as competitive as he wanted to be, with his GTO, in Stock.

So, he switched the car over to SS, & had Parsons & Myers build him another engine. The car runs strong in SS, too. Has run some mid 10's & has won class @ Indy several times. As far as I know, it's the quickest SS '74 GTO ever. In the last couple of years, another '74 GTO Stocker has gone quicker than Bill's did. I'll talk about it, next. But none has gone quicker in Super Stock.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

OK, now for the quickest '74 GTO to ever run Stock Eliminator.

It is driven by Brad Koivisto. Engine by Line Performance. It has run real low 11's lots of times. But, at 1 race it ripped off a 10.82 !

Thankfully, it was at a race where the hp police were not allowed to consider the numbers.

MOST Stock/SS racers today don't take a chance on going too quick & getting hp added. 1.2 sec or more under the class index will get automatic hp added to the combo that ran the quick time. To me, the NHRA system is very complicated. It's just safer to stay less than a sec under.



NHRARacer.com - Automatic Horsepower Factoring System (AHFS)



So, most all the quickest cars are sandbaggin, in some way. Some add weight. Some detune slightly. Some let off early. Some tap the breaks, or some combination of these things. Cars can do this & still win, except on same class runs. When both cars are in the same class, the first car to the finish line is the winner. There is no breakout rule in effect. That's one of the rules that make class racing different from bracket racing. The other is that your car has to be able to run it's index or quicker, and also pass tech. I've read where some guys have said that if NHRA does away with the heads-up rule, they'll quit running class. It's mostly the guys with the quick cars that say that. Slow racers whose car can't win hardly any heads-up runs, wish they'd do away with the heads-up no break-out rule.

Anyhow, here's some pics of the Brad Koivisto GTO. Well, I'm calling it a GTO. Actually, he's switched over to a flat Ventura hood, in the last couple of years. BUT, it still has the GTO grill lights & decals and is listed on most Q-lists as a GTO. Apparently, NHRA tech is much less strict than they use to be. When we get to the 1st & 2nd gen Firebirds I'll point out a couple Birds that are not running the correct combination of parts. But both cars have been passing tech for years, in exactly the same configuration.

Pic #9 is the Greg Krause car. He ran it for a short time, a year or 2 ago.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

HAPPY NEW YEAR, ya'll !!!  

Another '74 GTO that runs SS, runs in the "GT" section. Basically, the GT rules allow the racer to run an engine in a body in which that engine was never available from the factory. And it doesn't have to be from the same division. For example: A Pontiac body can run a legal Chevy, Olds, Buick, Cadillac, or Pontiac engine. I think it has to be a V8 & listed in the classification guide.

Since the current subject is the '74 X-body Pontiac, I'll use one for an example. You could run a 305, 327, 350, 396, or 427 Chevy engine, as well as many other Chevy engines. The same is true for the other GM engines. And, they can be either older or newer than '74. Did not have to be available in '74 model cars.

Or, you can use a Pontiac engine. Can be a different year. Or it can be the same year, just one that was not available in the '74 Pontiac X-body. So, most any 350, 389, 400, 428, or 455 listed in the classification guide would be legal. You could use the '74 350 engine or a 350 from a different year. You could even run a '74 350, but enter your car in a GT class, rather than regular SS. In that case, you run off your GT index, rather than the reg SS index. Some of the quick SS racers do this, in order to protect their reg SS combo, so that it won't get hit with more hp.

Long time Pontiac racer Don Kennedy was a major player in getting the GT rules established. He has had a couple of GT Pontiacs. I'll cover his cars later.

So, anyhow, back to this particular GT class '74 GTO. It is raced by Carroll Warling. I'm not sure exactly what Pontiac engine he is currently running. He may have tried more than one. He is a long time Pontiac racer. He also has a '74 Lemans Super Stocker. A few years back it held the SS/MA nat record for a while. He has also run it in GT. I've read that he was building a 428 with #216 iron heads, to run in GT. Not sure if he's run it yet, or not.

Anyhow, he now has 2 GT Super Stock cars. I forgot to mention that he has run both a reg Lemans nose, and a Grand Am nose on his '74 Lemans. His brother, Norman Warling, runs a '62 Catalina, in Stock. But, I'll cover it later. These bros are some serious Pontiac racers.

In pic #2, you can see 2 more Pontiacs in the background. Those belong to the Warling's Colorado neighbors, the Burton's. But I'll cover their cars in detail, later on.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

OK, now back to the '62 Pontiacs.

There are two '62 Stockers running today. I just mentioned the name of one '62 racer. It's Norman Warling. He's running a '62 Cat. His main engine is a Tri-Power 389. It runs pretty strong, usually qualifying near the top of the list. . And, he & brother, Carroll, put a 421SD engine in it. Didn't run near as strong as the 389, against it's index, but did run under it. I think he put the 389 back in. The 421SD may have just been an experiment. Don't know. Running a 421SD requires running some rare & valuable parts. Guessing they won't run it on a regular basis.

The other '62 Stocker belongs to long time Pontiac racer, who I've mentioned, Bob Michael. His car is a Grand Prix. It runs the same engine as Norman runs. It also runs strong. These old cars are not lightning quick, but they ARE cool !


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

OK, lets look at some '63 Pontiacs.

I'll start with the smaller ones, first. FX was still hot in '63. And Pontiac was right in the middle of it. They built several '63 Tempest coups & a few wagon, & gave 'em to selected Pontiac racers. Right now, I don't remember the details of how many & who got 'em.

Anyhow, there were several @ the '63 Winter Nats. If what I've read is correct, a Mickey Thompson 421SD powered '63 Tempest coupe, with Bill Shrewsberry driving, won the A/FX class. A pic I consider famous shows the coupe lined up against one of the wagons.

The factory rear end drive system would not hold up to the 421SD power. So, several of the teams swapped out the factory system & installed the big chunk type rear that came in late 50's & early '60's big Pontiacs. I think they call it a 9.3. I', sure some heare know more about those than me. I DO know that LOTS of drag racers used those, in all sorts of drag vehicles, back in the day. They were about the strongest factory car rear end available, I think.

Besides A/FX, I have pics of some of these 421SD Tempests, which show 'em marked up in other classes, such as A/MP & A/G. I got to thinkin about why guys would run in these different classes. I wasn't there. So all I have is speculation. After '63, there was VERY little help from Pontiac. Also, the Mopar 426 Hemi took over in SS & FX. Mopar gave racers lots of parts & support.

Also, I assume that there were probably lots of small tracks that didn't run the FX classes. But most tracks probably ran Jr. Stock, Modified Production, & the Gas classes. There was no such thing as bracket racing. The 421 Tempest wagons could not run stock. Therefore, if anybody wanted to run one at the smaller tracks, they'd have to either run Gas or M/P. So, I figure that's why there are several pics that show the Tempests marked up to run Gas or M/P. I could be wrong. But probably not.

I thought there was some interesting info in pic #10. Seems that Jess Tyree eventually ran a '63 in A/MP & set a nat record with it. How cool is that ? A Pontiac powered car was a nat record holder in A/Modified Production. 

I won't be posting a whole lot of info about Pontiacs that ran a class other than Stock or SS. But, this deal is a little different. These A/FX cars were sorta forced to run a different class, or not be raced, at all. I like to read about the few die hard Pontiac guys that stuck with Pontiac, won races, & set records ! 

Would be interesting if somebody would do a thread about Pontiacs that ran quicker than Stock/SS. I've seen quite a few pics of Birds & Goats marked up in higher classes. I also know of a 2-engine dragster that won class at a nat event. In fact, there were several Pontiac powered dragsters, back in the old days. I think the Pontiac Heaven guy has lots of pics & info about those, on his site. My plate is full. But, if somebody will do it, I'll help locate pics & info sources. Just don't have time right now to do the whole thread.

AND, a Pontiac power ONLY bracket thread would be cool. Members could post their race win info & pics, both past & present. And, upcoming info about big money races could be posted. Hey, such a thread might inspire some members here to try a little bracket racing. I could post some, but can't keep up such a thread. I started one on the PY site, hoping the racers would contribute & keep it going. It fizzled out, for lack of participation.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

That brings us up to the '63 Big Pontiacs.

As mentioned, '63 was the year of the "Swiss Cheese" frames. It seems there were not enuff 421SD powered cars produced to make 'em legal to run in NHRA Stock or SS. But, they could run FX. Some ran A/FX & some ran B/FX, depending on weight.

I suppose the most famous pic of the Pontiac B/FX cars is of the All-Pontiac B/FX final, @ the '63 Indy race. Jim Wangers won the class.

Notice in pic #3 all the Pontiac class winners @ Indy '63.

Pic #5 shows Arlen Vanke running S/S. Don't know what engine he was running or what the track rules were. Have read that some tracks & some other sanctioning bodies would allow the '63 421SD cars to run S/S. Then pic #6 shows the same car running A/FX. Still has the S/S on the lower part of the front fender. I suppose he ran both classes, depending on what track/event he was running.

Pic #7 shows a big car that Arnie ran in A/FX. Pic #8 looks to be the same car, but it's marked B/SS. Assuming the car could not run that class in NHRA.

There were some who did race the lower powered '63's. Pic #10 shows an E/SA '63.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Well, there were quite a few big Pontiac wagons running Stock & SS, back in the old days.

Some were class & event winners & some were nat record holders. The 1st 3 pics are of the Joe Perzan "Big Bruiser" '60 wagon. It was a nat record holder, as can be seen in pic #3.

The wagon shown in pics #4 & #5 won the '67 Winter Nats. At this link, you'll also see that Jay Hamilton won Stock @ a nat event in '67. Ya'll may remember from an earlier thread that he ran '58 Pontiacs. I've seen pics of both a 2-door & a 4-door '58, with his name on 'em.



http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1967



That reminds me. Here's a link to all the NHRA nat event winniers, from 1959 thru 2000



NHRA National Event Results Listing



Nat & many div event results, beginning in 1998 to present, can be found @ Drag Race Central.






Drag Race Central | Presented by Summitracing.com 1-800-230-3030


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com




.
Hey, ya'll will just have to excuse me. But I found a pic of a '62 Pontiac wagon running C/MP ! Looks like he gave it the number 421, & the name "Jolly Green Giant".


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Can ya'll stand a few more old wagon pics ?

This 1st one was a '61 nat record holder.

The next one appears to have been a record holder for more than a dozen years. Don't know what class or classes it ran. I've asked questions about it, but can't remember right now if I ever got any definite info on it. In the pics it appears to be some sort of resto. But, I'll post the pics, anyhow.

Found another pic of the "Big Bruiser.

I'll finish this post out with a couple of pics of the "Nemisis Two". Some of ya'll may remember the '69 Judge rec holder named "Nemisis". Well, it seems that car was wiped out in a towing accident. So, the owner, Jerry Stealy, swapped all the good parts over to the wagon. Since it had a big scoop on the hood, it obviously didn't run either Stock or SS, in NHRA. I assume it ran AHRA or IHRA. Jerry would later have a '72 Lemans SS wagon, which I'll probably post some pics of later.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

My favorite Pontiac Super Stock wagon was a '63. 

It was raced back in around 1975-'76, by one of my Pontiac heroes, Jack Mullins, from Arkansas. It was said to have run a rare 389 engine, which was only available for cars that were to be shipped overseas, IIRC. I think maybe there were some of his competitors who did not want NHRA to allow him to run it. 

There are several reasons why I liked Jack & his big wagon so much.

(1) Me being from North LA, Jack didn't live too far from me. 

(2) Since he ran NHRA division 4 events, I got to actually watch him race. Pic #5 below, was taken at a div 4 points race, held at the Pearl MS track, near Jackson. My girlfriend, "TJ", took that pic. TJ also drove a '68 E/SA Firebird & several bracket Birds I built. Later in the thread, I'll give more details about TJ & the Stock class cars we raced. TJ is now my wife. I mention this now, so that for the rest of this thread I can just use the name "TJ". without having to ID exactly who TJ is. 

(3) I still remember the sound of that old 389 engine, as it wound up to over 7000 rpm, for the launch. Before that, I'd read that most Pontiac engines wouldn't stay together at that rpm.

(4) The other thing I remember was how good Jack was at shifting thru the gears of his 4-speed stick trans, while keeping the engine rpm really high. I'm tellin Ya'll, that 389 Pontiac was a screamer ! Nowadays, it's common for the quick Pontiac Stocker 400 engines to turn 7000-8000 rpm. But that was NOT the case back in the mid '70's. Rules have changed & today's legal parts are better than the cast factory parts required in the mid '70's. 

(5) And for icing on the cake, Jack won the US Nationals, & several other nat events. Also got RU @ several nat events. Probably won a few div 4 races. May have won the div 4 SS point championship. Don't remember, for sure. That US Nats win was especially sweet. In the finals, he ran the factory sponsored Mopar, driven by "Miss Mighty Mopar", Judy Lilly. It was sorta like a David & Goliath match-up. But, just like in the Bible account, little David got the victory !  And, he won other such encounters. 

Part of Jack's story is told in this article. It's the first half of the article I linked, which includes the Gary/Charlene Wood story, in the 2nd part. 









Pontiac History - Wagon Masters - High Performance Pontiac Magazine


A historical look at Pontiac history when the Wagon Masters were drag racing Pontiac wagons - High Performance Pontiac Magazine




www.motortrend.com





Besides the 2 nat '75 event wins, looks like he also got RU @ the Summer Nats. . 



http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1975



Also got a Sports Nats win & RU @ the Spring Nats & the World Finals, in '76. 



http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1976



I'll mention Jack again, later in the thread.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Before we leave wagons, I'll post some more pics of various Pontiac wagons.

The 1st 4 pics are of the Jerry Stealy '72 Lemans wagon. Jerry is the guy who had the "Nemisis" '69 Judge & the "Nemisis Two" '69 wagon. I assume that Pontiac racer Jay Hamilton is the partner mentioned on the door.

The next 2 pics are of Don Himes & his '72 Wagon. Phil Szupka's "Pontiaction Performance" looks to have been a sponsor of it, at some point. I've mentioned Phil earlier, & his name will come up again in the 2nd gen Bird section. Pic #7 is of an unknown(to me) '72 SS/M wagon.

Pic #8 is another pic of the Jack Mullins wagon. #9 is a pic of a wagon which I found in a collection of Larry Maxwell pics. So, I ASSUME Larry raced it, or had something to do with it.

#10 is not a class racer. As far as I know, the only racing it did was bracket racing. But, it was used as a "test mule" for quite a few parts. And, it is probably THE most well known Pontiac wagon, to Pontiac fans everywhere. Lots of Pontiac guys have read Jim Hand's book & articles about Pontiac performance. So, I felt the NEED to post the pic in this thread.






Jim Hand How to Build Max Performance Pontiac - PY Online Forums - Bringing the Pontiac Hobby Together


Jim Hand How to Build Max Performance Pontiac Pontiac - Street



forums.maxperformanceinc.com













How to Build Max Performance Pontiac V8s (S-A Design): Hand, Jim: 0601784000783: Amazon.com: Books


How to Build Max Performance Pontiac V8s (S-A Design) [Hand, Jim] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. How to Build Max Performance Pontiac V8s (S-A Design)



www.amazon.com


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

OK, back to the Big Pontiacs. I suppose they're called B-Bodies, maybe ? Haven't found just a whole lot of pics of big Pontiacs, later than '63 models. I suppose that's mostly because Pontiac racers switched over to the Tri-Power GTO's & then mostly the Birds, in '67 & beyond.

But, here's some of what I found.

Jack Matyas & Bruce Walton are guys who have had cars already mentioned in the '74 GTO section. They also have one each in this section. 

Some of these big cars ran strong. At least 3 of 'em got class wins @ nat events, & at least one was a nat record holder. The "Tijuana Taxi", in pic #10, won an NHRA div race.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Well, unless I forgot some, that should take us up to the 1st Firebird, the '67 model.

BUT, just before I start that discussion, I thought of something I read about the early big cars, which I thought was very interesting. Some of the stick cars ran a 3-speed, rather than a 4-speed trans. I'd read that before. BUT, what I hadn't read, before I read this recently, is that some of the cars that ran a 3-speed, shifted with a "3-on-the-tree" column shifter.

BUT, because of the difficulty of making quick & consistent 1-2 shifts, 1st gear was not used in the pass down the track. The run was started with the trans in 2nd gear. That way, there was only 1 shift to make, & it was an easy shift to make, just pulling straight down on the shifter. In order to get a good launch, starting off in 2nd, the rear end ratio had to be changed. A lot more gear was needed than if starting in 1st gear.

While on the subject of 3-speeds, I assume that most guys here already know that some of the HD 3-speeds used in Pontiacs were actually Ford "Top Loaders". Seems they were considered stronger than most of the 4-speeds used in factory Pontiacs. I've read that all the '60's GTO 3-speeds were this type, which some called a "Dearborn" 3-speed. Some argue that the 3-speed cars were quicker. But, I'm sure there are guys here who know more about those trans than me. There have probably been many discussions about 'em on most Pontiac forums.

OK, I figure the '67 Firebird was received with much excitement, by the Pontiac drag racing guys. Not only were they available with a 400 engine with big valves, screw-in studs, pushrod guideplates, a 750cfm Q-jet, and the TH400 trans, but the body was lighter & much more aerodynamic than the big cars & A-bodies. VERY few GTO racers had run an auto trans, because they had to run the 2-speed.

So, as could be expected, dealers & private racers put some Birds on the tracks around the country. One that was very successful was driven by Tony Knieper. It won races & was a rec holder.

Some dealers that ran or sponsored one were Stan Long Pontiac, Gay Pontiac, Myrtle Motors, Park Pontiac, Sturgeon Pontiac, and I'm sure several others that I don't know about.

Below are pics of 9 different '67 Birds I chose for this post. 

Pic #8 is a SS Bird raced by Joel Larkin. As far as I know, it is the only '67 still running SS, & has been for a long time.

The last 2 Birds pictured here have turned out to be the quickest '67 Bird Stockers ever. And, #10 has turned out to be the winningest & most famous. I'll have a LOT to say about it, in the next post.

#9 belongs to Bryan Phillips. He has been racing it for quite a while. The early pics I have of it show it with white paint. It has made many 10 sec passes, running Stock.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Some of you guys who know a lot about Pontiac Stock Elim racing already know the car & driver I'll talk about in this post.









Randi Lyn Shipp is Fearless in Her Wheel-standing 1967 Firebird!


We’ve got the secret behind Randi Lyn Shipp’s race-winning, wheel-standing, 10-second 1967 Pontiac Firebird!




www.motortrend.com





That's right, it's Randi Lyn Shipp & her white '67 Bird Stocker. As the linked article says, she got the car from Tony DeFrank. She usually runs in either C/SA or D/SA. It has gone quicker than 10.50. Don't know the exact quickest time. The 10.31 listed in the article may still be the quickest.

The article lets us know that the car is 1st class all the way. A Pontiac engine has to be done right, in order to turn 8000 rpm & live !

I have LOTS of pics. May use at least 3 posts, just so I can post 30 pics. Hey, Randi Lyn has won at least 7 national events & was last year's div 3 Stock champ. She is a Pontiac hero & deserves some "ink" here.






I'll start off with 10 pics of her, in & out of the Bird. She seems to be very popular with fans & racers. Have never heard a negative word about her.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Here's some pit, lanes, next-up, & burnout pics.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Magic Maker: Randi Lyn Shipp Knows How to Win On and Off the Track


One of the friendliest faces at the dragstrip is also one of the fiercest competitors. Stock Eliminator standout Randi Lyn Shipp has been part of drag racing since she was […]




dragillustrated.com


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

How to do a wheelie, in 5 easy steps. It's fun !

AND, it don't hurt to pick up a few Wallys along the way. 

"victories earned in Phoenix (2011 and 2016), Norwalk (2013), Brainerd (2015) and Epping (2018), as well as Gainesville and Chicago (both in 2019).






PHOENIX - Stock Eliminator Final, Round 6 Eliminations


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com










NORWALK - Stock Eliminator Final, Round 7 Eliminations


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com










BRAINERD - Stock Eliminator Final, Round 7 Eliminations


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com










PHOENIX - Stock Eliminator Final, Round 6 Eliminations


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com










EPPING - Stock Eliminator Final, Round 6 Eliminations


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com










GAINESVILLE - Stock Eliminator Final, Round 6 Eliminations


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com










CHICAGO - Stock Eliminator Final, Round 6 Eliminations


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

SO, that brings us to '68 Birds.

I suppose there have been more drag cars made from '68 Birds than from any other Pontiac. IIRC, Gary Wood said that he had built, raced, & sold at least a dozen, himself.

Not sure of the best way to tackle this model. I think I'll begin with some of those that were raced back in the old days, Stockers 1st.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Maybe the most famous '68 Bird SS guys were John Angeles & Pete McCarthy. Think I've already mentioned that they wrote a book or 2 about Pontiac performance. Maybe the 2nd was just an updated & improved version of the 1st, Don't know. Some of you guys may have one or both.

Pics 7-9 show a silver Bird. On the front fender it has Ellison & Truman Fields' names. Ellison Engine Service is where Truman got most of his engine machine work done. So, I don't know exactly how much Truman & Ellison had to do with the Angeles Bird.

The other big players here were Roy & Mike McKinney. I'll do 2 posts about them, one for Stock, one for SS.

We saw earlier that Joel Larkin had/has a '67 SS Bird. But, in this pic, I can't see any vent windows. So, I assume this is a '68 he had, before he got the '67.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

OK, I'll do a couple of posts about the '68 Birds Roy & Mike McKinney had. And I'll do as many posts as it takes to cover the Birds my 1st Pontiac hero, Truman Fields had. 

But, for a little break in the action, I'll 1st talk about the Pontiac Stockers I had. Don't know how much of my Stocker story I've posted here, & I'm not gonna do some sort of search to look it up. I'll include it in this thread, so it'll all be in one place. 

I loved the GTO, from the time I first saw the newspaper ad about the '64 models. I suppose I was only 14, then. As the years went by, I collected all the newspaper & car mag GTO ads I could find & put 'em up on the walls of my room. I ordered all the GTO pics that PMD offered. Before I graduated high school, my walls were covered with GTO pics, like wallpaper. 

So, while I was still in college & working all the hours I could at a Pizza Inn, I ordered a new RA3, 4-speed, GTO. Got it in March. Cost was just over $3400. Notes were about $125, including insurance. Put just over 60k street miles on it, then began preparations on it in the Fall & Winter of '72, to race it in '73. 

Hey ya'll, I didn't know ANYTHING about how to set up a car for organized drag racing. And all I got form the local car guys was "Get rid of that ole Goat & get you a Chevy". But, those Chevy guys had no idea how much I loved my GTO. There was no way I was gonna switch ! 

My clutch was still the original that came in the car. So, I figured I'd need a new racing clutch. I'd got a rule book, so I knew I couldn't run slicks. We didn't have the sticky street legal tires we have today. The street legal tires were hard compound rubber. And any type of softening was not legal. So, I bought the biggest street legal M&H tires I could find. Since I knew those hard tires would not hook up, I bought an aluminun flywheel. IIRC, the clutch & flywheel were both Weber brand. 

Didn't have a trailer, so I'd have to use a tow bar, like so many others did back then. Since I needed a street ride, I bought a big 4-door '68 Caddy to pull double duty. With 472 power & plenty of weight, it towed the Goat without a problem. I'd use junk tires for the tow, then bolt on the drag tires at the track. Hey, I didn't even have a hyd jack. I used a scissor jack, which I borrowed from my Dad. Pic #2 below shows me tightening the lug nuts on the RR wheel. You can see the jack & the tread pattern of the M&H tire. I also ran small narrow front tires. So, I had to swap out all 4 corners. Hey, it didn't matter to me a bit. I was young & I was VERY excited to be racing ! I was determined to do whatever it took. Extra work didn't bother me, at all. 

Anyhow, I finally got it out on the track. Made lots of mistakes, & it took me a while to get the hang of launching consistently with a controlled wheelspin. But, after I mastered that, I began to win some rounds. I actually won several races that 1st season. Our local track, near Monroe, LA, didn't run off national records. They ran off track records. Anybody who wanted to try to set a new track record could just notify the tower during time trials, before making the record attempt. If the pass was quicker than the existing record, then the new record was the "dial-in", for all cars running that class. 

Well, there were no really serious Stock class cars running at that track, at that time. Some of 'em were street driven cars, Hey, this was BEFORE bracket racing. You had the choice of whether to run in the street class or the Stock class. Hey, the Stock class paid a whopping $75 to win, plus a trophy. But the entry fee was only $5 & gas was less than 50 cents a gal. The Street winner only got a trophy. Anyhow, I finally got my Goat to where it ran a best of 13.95. No other car in my class could run that quick. So, I set my class record lower than any other cars in my class could run. I remember running D/S. But I found this one "mystery" pic in our scrapbook. Shows the car in the pits with E/S on it. Looks to have a chrome or alum wheel on the rear & 2 front tires of different sizes. As far as I know, we don't have a single pic of it at the track, in '74. I towed with odd size tires on the front. But I can't explain the E/S. Maybe the tech guys made a booboo, or maybe I told them it was a 350hp engine. So, I suppose this pic will remain a mystery forever. 

Anyhow, I set my record & lowered it a few times, & won a few races, & I can't convey in words how much I enjoyed that 1st season of racing ! I remember the butterflies & feeling of excitement every time I'd get close to the track, towing my GOAT behind the Caddy. The only thing I could relate it to was the feelings I'd had before big high school basketball games. But, just as in those B-ball games, once the action got started, the nerves were gone & you did what you needed to do. I suppose my B-ball experience made me enjoy the thrill of competition in drag racing more. 

Well, to shorten this some. Sticky "street legal" M&H tires were allowed for the '74 season. So, I bought a new Hays steel flywheel & clutch set-up. Those changes quickly reduced my ET half a sec. So, I could run mid 13's in '74. There was a C/S Stage 1 Buick that wouldn't run that quick. Just after mid-season, he smarted off & made me mad. So, the next week, I got teched in as a RAIV powered car, which put me in C/S, instead of D/S. Hey, the local tech guys had no idea what a RAIV engine looked like. Pontiac racers were real scarce at that track. Anyhow, I went out & set the C/S record as quick as I could go. It was somewhere around 13.50. I assume a real high 13 was quick as he could go. After I set the new record, I loaded up and left the track. I figure the guy was pretty mad. 

That incident set up the story about my '68 Bird Stocker, which TJ drove. A short version of that story will be in my next post. 

Pics #9 & #10 show my "shop" for '73 & '74. My Dad let me use the side parking spot of our carport. Pic #10 shows a piece of channel iron hung between 2 trees. To pull/install motors, I borrowed Dad's "chain falls" hoist, & hung it off that channel iron. Hey, you gotta start somewhere. That's where I started.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

OK, Here's some more of our Stocker story. Just after mid season, I pulled the engine out of my Goat & put it into a '68 Bird I'd bought. TJ had been going to the races with me & had said that since she was going anyhow, she may as well race. But, she didn't wanna drive a Goat. She wanted something smaller, like the '68 Camaro she'd had in late high school & college. Well, I told her that would be no problem, at all.

Found a clean, non -running '68 Bird at a dealer's used car lot. IIRC, I gave $350 for it, It had a locked up 350 & a 3-speed stick. She wanted an auto trans for racing. So, I went to the junkyard to buy a TH400 for it. Now to show ya'll just how little I knew, I had know idea that a Bird TH400 was a short tail. Hey, I didn't even know they came in long & short tail versions.

So, I bought a junkyard long tail TH400 & installed it, along with my RA3 Goat engine. Had to make a trans cross member & have the driveshaft shortened at our local welding shop. But hey, miraculously, it all worked & the car ran consistent high 13's. AND, TJ got some very valuable experience, learning how to race. She loved it & was all for building her a serious Stocker for the '75 season.

So, I rounded up the parts & took 'em to a machine shop in Shreveport, where they had built some racing engines, including for a SS Pontiac. But I made a mistake. The rules called for factory pistons. But, when I tried to get some .030 over pistons from GM, they were on backorder. So, I figured since they were just stock cast pistons, any aftermarket cast piston should be just as good. WRONG ! I'd find that out, later.

Anyhow, got the engine built & installed, with the same junkyard TH400. But, by now, I'd got some info from H-O Racing Specialties. They recommended a 9" Vitar brand converter, with about 3000 stall. So, I got one & had 4.56 gears put in the rear. It all worked great, probably better than it should have, considering the junkyard trans, & no good suspension work, at all. I had made some slapper bars for it, out of square tubing. 9" slicks & open headers were legal in '75. The bird hooked up good & ran high 12's. Best time we remember was somewhere in the 12.80's. We didn't always get a time slip, at the small tracks we ran, & didn't keep hardly any of those we did get.

NHRA ran Stock off the index system in '75. I don't remember exactly what the E/SA index was. But I assume it was a mid-12. Pretty sure the Bird never ran that quick. BUT, at the local tracks we ran, it would run closer to ikt's index than most of the other Stockers. So, TJ won the 1st 4 races at the Monroe track & the first 2 races at at track near Forest Hill LA. Hey, 6 to zero ain't a bad win-loss record.

She also won the 5th race @ Monroe. But, by this time some of the guys were tired(& probably embarrassed) of a Pontiac with a female driver, winning all the races. So, they protested the Bird. Well, I assumed it was legal. The tech guys didn't know enuff about a Pontiac engine to check it out. So, they just decided to weigh the car. Well, since I hadn't stripped hardly anything out of it, I assumed it was probably heavier than it needed to be. WRONG ! They said it was almost 50 lbs light.

We knew she'd beat the other cars by enuff that adding 50 lbs of weight would not have changed the outcome of any round. But, the car was DQ'd for that race & we had to forfeit the win. Before the next race, I added a full size spare & some other weight, so as to be sure it would not be light. And the weight did not change the ET hardly at all. 

But the engine began to develop a smoke. And the car slowed some. Still quick enuff to win local races, but no longer in the 12's. The problem was that NAPA piston I'd bought, when GM didn't have any. One of 'em busted in the ring lands. Well, in the mean time, I'd had an engine built for my Goat. By the time I'd bought pistons for it, GM had 'em back in stock. So, it was built just like the Bird engine, but with better pistons. I had it built as a 350hp engine, so I could run E/S. That was NOT a competitive combo, since it was basically the same engine as the 330hp Bird engine, but had to carry 200 more lbs.

But, I'd got it running and got it into the high 12's. At one race TJ won & I was RU. Now ya'll that's FUN ! 


But, after the Bird engine began to smoke worse, I decided to put the Goat engine into the Bird. That worked just fine. TJ won the biggest race of the year @ Monroe. It was some sort of big Stock race, maybe called the Louisiana Stock Championship, or something. Anyhow, instead of the usual $75 & a small trophy, she won $200 & a big trophy. She finally won so many trophies, she sold several of 'em to a guy who lived in her apt complex, so he could impress his lady friends with 'em. Don't know how impressed they were.  Later on, after we'd switched over to bracket racing we talked all the tracks into giving us $5 instead of a trophy. Hey, back then $5 would by 10 gal of gas. So, we won quite a bit of gas that way. 

Well, I could add a lot more. But, if I decide to to that, I'll come back & edit.

Here are some pics of our '75 Stocker season. The season started before I got TJ's Bird painted. So, she ran it in red primer for several races. Then it was painted & but didn't have the name on the doors yet. So we raced 'em in various stages of completion. Had a lot of fun & learned a lot. Thankfully, for us, all our local tracks switched over to bracket the next season. I like Stock Class racing. But we were much better suited for bracket racing. But that's another story for some other thread.

I'll post 10 pics, then may come back later & change some, 'til I get the 10 that best go with this post.

Pic #10 is 2 pics put together, which shows my 1st 2-car hauling rig. The truck was a brand new 390 powered Ford 1-ton. It also served as my daily driver. The hauler bed was strictly homemade. I actually made it a little too steep, for the little elec winch I had. But funds were tight, so I just helped the winch with a hand come-a-long. Hey, the whole rig was strictly low budget. I really did not have the funds to race Stockers. But, that's what i wanted to do. So we gave it a try. Glad we did. We had fun & learned a lot.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Now I'll begin to talk about my 1st Pontiac hero, Truman Fields. I first heard of him in '73. I'd subscribed to the National Dragster paper. So, when the Indy results issue came out, I saw that a '68 Bird had won Stock. But, in the last few years I've learned a lot more about Truman that I never would have known without the internet.

The earliest record I have of him winning anything was a class win @ Indy in '71. Then there's a pic of what I assume was a class win @ the '72 Summer Nats. Then of course he won class & Stock Elim @ Indy '73. Also set a new nat record in the Stock final. I think that record was a 12.06. After giving that some thought, I decided that there is no way he could have run that quick with the hard street tires like I ran. But recently I read that during the later part of the '73 season, NHRA allowed Stockers to run the same soft M&H tires I ran in '74. That made sense to me, cause those tires seemed to be nothing but soft compound slicks with 2 very thin shallow grooves, just barely enuff to say they HAD grooves. Pic 4 shows how I remember those tires.

I found an Indy class winners list from 1971, shown in pic #5. He was the D/S winner @ 11.83. It sorta makes you wonder how his 12.06 ET could have broken the C/S rec, in '73, if he could run quicker in '71, in a lower class. But, after learning a little more about that time period in Stock class racing, I think I can explain it.

NHRA really changed the Stock rules for the 1972 season. And they changed the weight breaks to where Truman's Bird ran in A/S, rather than D/S. So, all the nat records were wiped out & set by NHRA at minimums, 'til somebody ran for the rec in their class & went quicker than the minimum. According only to the info on pic #8, it appears as tho he set the A/S record in '72. Sorry about the quality of the pic. But is was real small & my efforts to enlarge it make it pretty fuzzy. I'll try to find some better proof of this record.

Then, in '73, the rules were the same as '72, but the weight breaks were changed back closer to what they had been before '72. So, all the records had to be set to minimums, again. So, in '73, I don't know what the C/S rec or min was, at the time of the Indy Stock final. Anyhow, according the ND account, his final round 12.06 WAS the new C/S rec. The RU car also set it's nat rec.

If I find more info for this post, I'll edit & make the changes.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Attention !!!

We interrupt the previously scheduled program in order to bring you this just breaking news.

A nat record list from 1979 was just posted on the Class Racer forum.

The E/S record was held by the McKinney '68 Bird, which we'll take a closer look at soon.

The E/SA record was held by the Rock Running '71 T-37, which has been mentioned here. It's the car that is still being raced by Don Turk.

The N/S record was held by Raymond Simmons, in a '74 Ventura. It was set the the Laplace, LA track. That was a track near New Orleans. We ran our '68 Bird Stocker there once, in '75. TJ was driving. She got a trophy for the E/SA class win. We'd also run State Capitol at Baton Rouge, the night before, where she'd also won E/SA.. I probably wouldn't remember this little bit of trivia, but she recorded it in our racing scrap book.

It was significant to us because it was our first built-from-scratch Stocker, & it was the 1st time the car ran in the 12's. We also have a pic of those 2 E/SA win trophies in the scrapbook.

We also took the Bird & my '69 Goat to the '75 points race @ Laplace. But, Wesley(a notoriously picky NHRA tech guy) pointed out a few very small items that were not legal, which I couldn't fix away from home. The radio holes in the dash were not covered. Some small chrome strips were missing. I didn't have the correct factory fan on the Bird. Hey, I didn't even know what the correct fan was. I'd just used the clutch fan off one of the '68 Bird parts cars I'd bought. So we just watched, then came home. THAT incident was a big reason why I never tried to run Stock again after that season.

I've noticed that Stock tech has gotten a LOT looser in recent years. Randi Lyn's '67 Bird has been running without front turn sig lamps, for years. I can assure ya'll Wesley would not have let the car run like that, back then. A '72 Bird we'll look at ran with a Formula hood & T/A fenders for years, The car won several nat events. Nowadays, it runs with a T/A shaker hood, but no T/A wheel well flares. Wesley would not have let it run, back in the '70's.



http://classracer.com/classforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=61629&d=1641302465


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

That E/S rec for the McKinney Bird alerted me that I should probably break into the Truman Fields Bird story & 1st post about the McKinney Birds. After that, I'll come back to the Fields story.

Sometime after Truman's big Indy win, maybe as late as '76, Truman put his Bird up for sale, as seen in the ad shown in pic #1. Well, as the story goes, Roy McKinney & his son, Mike, wanted to buy Truman's Bird. But, rather than pay full price, they wanted to do part cash plus trade him their '68 Bird & a motorcycle. If the account is correct, Truman accepted the deal, & the McKinney's took possession of Truman's Bird. Here's the article where I got some of this info. I've since found out that SOME of this info is NOT correct. The only parts of it that I can verify is that the 2 Birds did change hands. The article also contains some info I'll include when I continue the Truman story.






FEATURE - Truman Fields


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Well, the McKinney's took their newly acquired Bird to Indy in '77. Mike drove it to the B/S class win & the Stock Elim win ! The pic I have of the class win is poor quality.

I think I've already mentioned that M.i.c.k Leiferman was Indy RU 3 years in a row, in his multi-year rec holding '71 GTO.

I think the article pictured in pic #6 is interesting. It's a newspaper article dated May 23, 1997. It has a pic of the McKinney Bird when it still had the "Hard Times" name on it, running E/S @ the Gator Nats. The caption seems to indicate that Mike won Stock Eliminator then.

BUT, the nat event winner & RU results I have do NOT show Mike getting the win or RU, in '77, '78 , '79, or '80. I suppose he MAY have gotten the E/S class win, maybe ?



http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1977



Maybe they were referring to his '77 Indy win, but used a pic of the same car @ the Gators, running a different class. I'll check into it a little closer.

At some point, the McKinney Stocker was Blue. I don't know if it was the Fields' car, repainted, or some other, possible one they built. One of the best pics I currently have of that blue Stocker is a B&W pic.

I'm not sure exactly how many other wins they picked up with their Stocker. Mike won the '85 Spring Nats.



http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1985


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Now about the McKinney SS Birds.

I don't know if they converted the Blue Stocker over to a Super Stocker, or not. My guess would be yes. But I don't know for sure.

Anyhow, it appears to have had the same blue color scheme. Not sure what they won with it or when.

Then I have several pics of a red McKinney '68 SS Bird. Assume it's the same car, with red paint. But they may have sold the blue car & built the red car. Don't know.

There are some pretty cool pics of the red car doing wheelies @ Indy. One of 'em is featured in a Competition Cams ad.

Will check the nat event winner's lists, to see if they won any, in SS.

In '87, Mike won the Southern Nats & the Keystone Nats.



http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1987



Mike's son, Marty, now has the car. It's been painted orange. He still races it occasionally, along with his bracket car.

Roy was driving it @ Indy, back in 1998 & '99. In '99, he got bumped from the 128 car qualifying field, by some slower class winners. That was the rule. All class winners make the field, even if it means they bump cars that are quicker, against their index.






Drag Race Central | Presented by Summitracing.com


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

In 1975, there were at least 3 Pontiacs that held a nat rec.

M.i.c.k Leiferman held the G/SA rec, in a '71 GTO. Charlene Wood held the I/SA rec, in a '72 Lemans Wagon. And, although it's not on this mid season list, John Corcoran set a a G/S rec twice in '75, with his '72 GTO, which was the Former Truman Fields' rec holding SS car.






CLASS RACER FORUM - View Single Post - July 1975 NHRA class records


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

OK, now back to Truman Fields & his 2nd '68 Bird.

I've already explained how Truman got the former Roy & Mike McKinney '68 Bird. Truman & his friend Tommy Olson, with help from Ellison Engine Service, upgraded the Bird & got it to run a little quicker than his 1st Bird. So, in '77, Truman got the Indy C/S class win. Pic #1 below shows the car, Truman, & Tommy, with the class win trophy.

Pic #2 is the only other pic I have of the car, with it's green bottom & black vinyl top. I assume that is the color it was when they got it from the McKinney's.

In May '77, Truman set the B/S nat record @ 11.31.

As ya'll will see, Truman removed the vinyl top & had at least 2 different paint jobs on it after that. I think the DRC article said he worked for IBM & they moved him around the country quite a bit. He mentioned being on the East Coast & running IHRA for a while. Did real good there.

He was in div 5 for a while, I assume probably workin in Denver. His div 5 number was 5025. Then he was on the West Coast, in div 7, with the number 7025. During this time period, the car had a multi-colored paint job.

Then he moved to Florida, where I think he retired. The car had #2600 on it & was then burgundy colored.

Truman had a long & very successful racing career, driving mostly the '68 Birds.

But, the story is not quite over. Got one more post to go.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

OK, I was very confused about some of what I'm about to post. May still not have it EXACTLY correct. But, maybe it's close enuff. There was a "Shootout" in one of the High Performance Pontiac mags. In it, Truman was driving a green '68. The "Hard Times" name was different than it had been on the 1st 2 green Birds he raced.

I ASSUMED that it was the McKinney car, which he raced in '77 & many year since. BUT, I recently found out that somewhere along the way, he had managed to buy back his original '68 Bird. So, he got it back into racing condition. I've read that it ran some in Stock & some in pure stock. The pics I have show it running PS. Pic #2 shows 2 green Birds, which both have "Hard Times" lettering, in different style script. I assumed the pic was of Truman's original Bird & the McKinney Bird. But, when I asked, somebody said the Bird in the far lane was NOT the Mckinney Bird. I don't know, for sure.

OK, that original car has now had a complete resto, & is now on the show circuit, as I understand it.

Now, for the former McKinney Bird. Truman made some sort of a deal with Todd Hoven, to race it, wearing a resto paint/lettering job, making it look like it did when Truman won the '73 US Nats.

Todd did this. At 1st, it had a 4-speed in it, but was quickly changed over to an auto. It ran in the 10's & did some pretty big wheelies.

He was #83 qualifier, with a 10.59, in the 128 car field, @ the '15 US Nats.






INDY - Stock Eliminator Final Qualifying, Session #4 Order


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He won this div 1 race, in 2016.






LODRS 1-6 - Stock Eliminator Final, Round 7 Eliminations


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He qualified #17, with a 10.53 ET, @ the '16 Atco Nat Open.






ATCO DRAGWAY NO - Stock Eliminator Qualifying, Saturday Order


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He also got the D/SA class win @ that race.






Atco Dragway NO - Stock Eliminator Round 2 Class Eliminations


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Well, I could post more results, but ya'll get the picture. It was a mid-10-sec car, & one of about a half dozen or so quickest '68 Bird Stockers in the country.

After racing it that way for a while, it became his. Don't know if he just bought it outright or what. Anyhow, he & his brother, Duane, raced it for a while. But both have been racing other cars recently. Have read that Todd still plans to upgrade & race it some time in the future.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

I mentioned that there are a half dozen or so 10 sec '68 Birds in the country.

I'll now mention some of the others. One that did real well for a couple of years belonged to Chris Stephenson. I think it made lots of passes in the lower half of the 10 sec zone. He won races & got class wins.

He was #1 qualifier at this '20 div 4 points race, with a 10.65. He ran F/SA, E/SA, D/SA, & C/SA. You can do that by adding or removing weight, and switching from D-ports to round ports.






LODRS 4-8 - Stock Eliminator Qualifying, Friday Final Order


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He got the D/SA win @ the '19 Vegas Dodge Nats. Randi Lyn was RU. 10.72 is quick for D/SA, in the Vegas altitude.

LAS VEGAS 2 - Stock Eliminator Class Eliminations Finals

He was #3, @ more than a sec under his D/SA index @ this Summit Nats race.






NORWALK - Stock Eliminator Final Qualifying, Session #2 Order (Revised)


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He won Stock @ the '17 Buckeye Fuel Wars race.






LODRS 3-5 - Stock Eliminator Final, Round 7 Eliminations


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He won the Stock/SS combo @ this '17 NMCA race.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10214863431408187



He was #1 qualifier @ the '19 Pomona Finals race, with a 10.37. Don't know if that was his quickest time, ever, or not.






POMONA 2 - Stock Eliminator Final Qualifying, Session #3 Order


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Here's a video of the 3rd round of Stock qualifying @ the '15 US Nats, I think I counted 8 Pontiacs, most of which we'll be talkin about later, Don Turk's '74 GA is also in it. We already mentioned it. The quickest Pontiac Stocker to ever run is in it. The 1st Pontiac to show up is a '68 Bird, @ aprox the 3:25 point. I'll talk about it later. I think they allowed 180 cars to qualify for the 128 car field. So, I suppose there are near 90 pairs on this video. Some may enjoy it.






Here's the final round of a nat event Chris won.






chris stephenson wins - Bing video







www.bing.com













The Sports Report: The long road to victory


Chris Stephenson’s season-long journey pays off with his first Stock Eliminator win at the NHRA Toyota Nationals.




www.nhra.com


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

By the way, last I heard, that Chris Stephenson Bird is for sale, for $45K.

The next '68 Bird we'll look at belongs to Tim Gillespie. Ya'll may remember that name from the '68 GTO post. Tim ran a real nice one. Tim Also runs a Pontiac powered Super Gas car. I think they call the body a '33 Ford roadster.

For the last few years, Tim's sister, Julie Biermann, has been driving the Bird. It runs pretty consistent high 10's, but has run some 10.50's. It was the 1st Pontiac seen on the '15 US Nats video, on the last post.

It has made the 128 car field @ Indy at least 5 times. Tim made it once, & Julie 4 times. Her quickest qualifying time was 10.55, running D/SA, in 2020.






INDY 4 - Stock Eliminator Final Qualifying, Session #2 Order (Revised)


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She was #2 qualifier, with a 10.56, @ the 2020 div 3 points race held @ Indy. Randi Lyn was #4.

LODRS 3-2 - Stock Eliminator Final Qualifying, Session #2 Order

She was the highest Pontiac powered qualifier @ the '17 Midwest Nats, @ #15.






ST. LOUIS - Stock Eliminator Final Qualifying, Session #2 Order


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She won this div 3 race, in 2016. Had an easy E/SA heads-up final run with a slower car.






LODRS 3-4 - Stock Eliminator Final, Round 7 Eliminations


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

The next 10 sec '68 Bird we'll take a look at belongs to Leo Glasbrenner.

Leo has an auto trans business in CA. Builds & sell's parts for the Metric 200 trans that a LOT of Stockers are running. They are lighter & run a little quicker, because of lighter rotating weight. Leo did also race a Pontiac powered 4th gen GT SS Bird, we'll look at later.

His '68 has run well under 10.50. Not sure of the best ET. Usually qualified well. He didn't race it last year. Had it up for sale. He told me that since it didn't sell, he had it apart & is making some upgrades. Will try to get it to the track this season & attempt to sell it again. Best I could tell, he'll try to get around $60k for it. Comes with a back-up RA2 engine. Has pretty much the best of everything.

I know for sure he won a nat event with it. I'll post the video of that final round. Click on the Chris Stephenson video. Then scroll down & click on the red Bird at the 2018 Toyota Sonoma Nationals race.






chris stephenson wins - Bing video







www.bing.com










SONOMA - Stock Eliminator Final, Round 6 Eliminations


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Leo picked up the C/SA class win at the '18 Vegas nat event. Scott & Brad Burton also won their class. We'll look at both cars in the 2nd gen section.






LAS VEGAS 2 - Stock Eliminator Round 3 Class Eliminations


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He was #1 qualifier @ this div 7 race.






LODRS 7-6 - Stock Eliminator Qualifying, Saturday Order


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I'm sure the car had lots of other wins. But that's enuff to prove it was a strong running '68 Bird Stocker.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Here's a strong running silver '68 Bird, driven by Bob Aceves.

Haven't seen it on any lists now in a few years. It ran some mid 10's.

Bob qualified #1 @ this small race. Adjusted for the track altitude, he ran more than a sec under his index. I've read that his Bird MAY have been responsible for the 8hp hit NHRA gave to the '68 Bird 330hp engine. As far as I know, his Bird was quicker than any other 330hp Bird Stocker, at the time. But a year or 2 ago, NHRA reduced the hp factor by 5hp, from 338 to 333.






FALLON NO - Stock/Super Stock Combo Qualifying, Saturday Order


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By the way, Bob won that race. Notice in this link the name Bob Mulry. You'll see it again in this thread. Bob Mulry and some of the Aceves guys had some sort of team called "A & M Motorsports". Bob Mulry drove the quickest Pontiac powered Stocker, against it's index, that I'm aware of. Lots of #1 qualifiers & several times more than 1.5 sec under his index. Also set a nat record with the car, in 3 different Stock classes. I love to talk about that car. But, that's later on in the thread. Notice that this Class Racer post was made by Bryan Phillips. Ya'll may remember that he's the guy who has the 10 sec '67 Bird, which he raced mostly in CA. So, he probably knew all these guys well. He called the team "A & M Racing". But the lettering in some of the pics I posted show "Motorsports", rather than "Racing".






CLASS RACER FORUM - View Single Post - Congrats to Bob Aceves


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classracer.com





He was #8 qualifier @ the 2015 Vegas Summit Nats.






LAS VEGAS 1 - Stock Eliminator Final Qualifying, Session #2 Order (Pending Tech)


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He ran a 10.516, which was 1.034 sec under, @ the 2017 Pomona Finals race, which was good enuff for #4 position. .
POMONA 2 - Stock Eliminator Final Qualifying, Session #3 Order

He was #1 qualifier at this 2014 Vegas div 7 race, @ 1.111 under. Qualified more than a sec under many times.






LODRS 7-6 - Stock Eliminator Final Qualifying, Session #3 Order


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

We'll stay with silver '68's for this post.

But, we'll switch to a stick Bird. Adam Strang prefers a Stick. They're a lot of fun. But not many drivers can cut consistently good lights, with a stick. Back in the '60's & '70's, lots of Pontiacs ran a stick. MOST '64-'66 GTO's ran a stick, because the auto was a 2-speed, which some called a Super Turbine 300. Nowadays, the rules allow racers to switch over to a 3-speed auto.

Anyhow, Adam is the only Pontiac powered Stock driver I know of that runs a stick. And his bird is quick-with-a-stick ! 

He think he set a nat rec with his stick '68 GTO. I know he set one with his Bird. I think he's run well below 10.50. He even ran a 350HO engine, which went 10.80's ! I know he's run F/S, E/S, & D/S. I think the nat record was in F/S.

The #2 pic below is a pic of a motor which I assume he ran, at some time. Looks to have the RA air cleaner set-up on it. It has #62 heads. NHRA will allow #16, #31, or #62 heads on the '68 RA1 engine.

I'll look up some performance results & post some links. But, I've got 10 pics ready, so I'll post 'em now.

Some who have never raced may not know what the little building in pic #10 is for. It's where you pick up your time slip, telling you your ET, mph, & whether you won or not. Most slips have lots more info than that. Back in the old days, at some tracks, all we got was the ET, during time trials. Then during eliminations, the slip would say whether we won or lost. After the fancy computerized systems came along, lots more info was included about your run.

In '75, when we were running Stock, the staff at our local track just dropped the slips down a white PVC pipe, attached to the corner of the timing tower. They drooped into a box about the size of a cigar box, maybe slightly bigger. Some racers did not come get their slips. So, we usually had to dig thru lots of slips to find ours. That's just a little extra racing trivia for ya'll, @ no extra charge ! 

Here's the details of the rec he set with his '68 GTO.

" F/S 10.97 04/16/05 Adam Strang - Jericho, VT
'68 Pont GTO Mohnton, PA "

About that record, he said: "...first GTO in Stock Eliminator to go 10`s..."

He also won the Dutch Classic that year !






DUTCH CLASSIC - Stock Eliminator Final, Round 7 Eliminations


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These are in random order, as I find 'em. He got the C/S class win at last years New England Nats, Ran a slower car, but let it air out a bit with a 10.41 @ 127 mph.






EPPING - Stock Eliminator Round 1 Class Eliminations


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Won D/S @ the '19 "Baby Gators", with a 10.472.






LODRS 2-3 - Stock Eliminator Class Eliminations Finals


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@ The 2020 "Baby Gators", He had to run in the combo stick class, because there were no other D/S cars. He won the combo class, running a 10.376, which was 1.124 sec under his D/S index. That's the quickest time I can remember for the Bird.






LODRS 2-3 - Stock Eliminator Class Eliminations Finals


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He got the D/S class win @ the '17 4-Wide Nats.






CHARLOTTE 1 - Stock Eliminator Round 1 Class Eliminations


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Was #4 @ this div 1 race, with a 10.528.






LODRS 1-6 - Stock Eliminator presented by ATI Qualifying, Saturday Final Order


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#9 here with a 10.54.






LODRS 3-5 - Stock Eliminator Qualifying, Saturday Final Order


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Picked up the E/S win @ the '15 Vegas Toyota Nats, on a big holeshot !






LAS VEGAS 2 - Stock Eliminator Round 1 Class Eliminations


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Well, I suppose that's enuff to show that Adam's Stick Bird is Quick !


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

These 2 Birds are not as quick as the previous ones.

But the 1st one has run some 10's. It runs mostly up North, in div 5. It's raced by Ronald Prince.

@ this race he was #36, with a 10.82.






BRAINERD - Stock Eliminator Final Qualifying, Session #3 Order


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The 2nd one is raced by Brent Flynn. I especially like his car, because it was a low budget build. He was running brackets with it, then decided to do a low budget Stocker build. He put the entire build on a Class Racer thread. And he did eventually get it to run a little quicker than his index. I really enjoyed keeping up with his build. Some of ya'll may enjoy it. So I'll look it up & post a link.






Update E-F/SA Bird Build... - CLASS RACER FORUM


Update E-F/SA Bird Build... Class Racer Builds



classracer.com





Brent only ran a couple of tenths below his index. But, unless you have a same-class heads-up run, that's plenty quick to win rounds & races. There have been lots of races won by cars that couldn't run 1/2 sec below their index. Hey, you could win by dialing your index & running it.

He ran an 11.47 at this race, on an 11.70 index.






LODRS 3-2 - Stock Eliminator Qualifying, Saturday Final Order


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

OK, let's look at some '69 Birds, mostly from days gone by. .

The #8 Bird is still being raced in the Super Street class. Here's a race where it was running Stock, Ran 11.22 on an 11.70 index. 






LODRS 2-7 - Stock Eliminator Qualifying, Saturday Final Order


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The #1 Stephens Bird is being restored.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

OK, here's one of the only 2 quick '69 Bird Stockers I know of, in this century.

I suppose one main reason for that is because NHRA factors the same D-port 400 engines higher in '69 Birds than in '68 Birds.

For example: The 330hp 400 engine is rated @ 333hp in a '68 auto trans Bird. Same 330hp engine is rated 345hp in a '69 Bird. That same engine, which is factory rated @ 350hp in a GTO, is only rated 325hp by NHRA.

A very interesting fact is that the '69 Bird 330hp engine hp factor was increased to 345hp, in 2014, Since this Bird was the only quick '69 Bird running at that time, it had to be reason NHRA gave it a big hp "hit".



EngineSpecs





EngineSpecs





EngineSpecs



We'll take a look at the numbers this Bird was making, & see exactly why it got the big hit.

The car belongs to John Schloe, out on the West coast. He's raced it for a long time. I've read that he used to run a the RAIV engine. But, when he cracked one of the heads, he switched over to a D-port engine.

Just found this video. Shows John makin a couple of mid 10 sec passes.






He has been running 10.50's for at least 10 years. I assume his best time is in the 10.40's. But I'm not sure of that. Here's a race where he ran 10.49.






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Back in 2010, he won the pacific SPORTSnationals.

FONTANA - Stock Eliminator Final, Round 6 Eliminations 

John would be much more competitive if NHRA hadn't given his engine such a big hit. But, hey, a mid-10's '69 Bird Stocker is fairly competitive.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Now it's time to talk about what is possibly the most unique Pontiac powered Stocker of this century.

As far as I know, it's a one-of-a-kind.

Obviously it's not a real one & it's not painted the factory color, yet, but it's a '69 RAIV powered Trans Am. As far as I know, it has the only pair of RAIV heads currently being raced in Stock Elim. And it's definitely the only '69 T/A look body I've ever seen on a track, as a competitive Stocker.

That's right. It has the hood, fender vents, & rear deck spoiler. For last season it was painted flat black. Some thought it was primer. But I don't think NHRA allows cars to run in primer, at the big races.

Anyhow, it belongs to long time Chevy racer, Bruce Noland. I really don't know why a Chevy guy would build a car like this. But I assume he has his reasons. He ran it several times last year & did get it down into the mid 10's.

I'll look up some of the performance numbers & post 'em. But I'll 1st post the pics I have. I assume everybody on this site knows what a '69 T/A looked like. But to refresh your memories, I've included a T/A front pic.

OK, Bruce made several mid 10 sec passes. In this div 2 race, he qualified with a 10.53 & dialed a 10.45. In round 1, he cut a real bad light, and broke out with a 10.44, trying to catch up. So, as far as I know, that was his best competition pass. That makes his car one of the very few Pontiac powered Stockers that have run that quick, in competition. 

LODRS 2-6 - Stock Eliminator Round 1 Eliminations 

I'm wondering if he'll paint it white and/or continue racing it, or sell it to some Pontiac racer, & go back to his Chevy. 

We'll see.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Now for some old 1970 Birds.

I only found pics of 2 birds, that I could ID as a Stock or SS '70 model.

The 1st one is a T/A. Only reason I think it's a '70 model is because it's marked C/S. A Ram Air '70 model is the only 2nd gen I can think of that would run that class.

One of the pics shows the Garber Bird in the staging lanes, closely followed by a 1st gen Bird. Another pic shows it running against the White brothers GTO. Garber also ran a '69 GTO.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

OK, now we'll talk about the quickest Pontiac powered Stock EVER !

I think 10-teens is the quickest time recorded in a Stock Elim race. But, in Stock legal trim, it recorded a high 9, at a bracket race. Don't think any other Pontiac powered Stocker has come close.

The car of course was the '70 B/SA RAIV powered Formula, raced by long time Pontiac racer Scott Burton, of Golden Colorado. Scott had raced other classes with early 2nd gen Formulas, which we'll talk about later. In fact, for all I know, he may have raced all those classes with the same Bird. It pretty easy to make the slight changes needed to legally run the '70-'73 Bird bodies as any one of those year models you want to run. I suppose you can also change out the correct body pieces & run 'em as a T/A or Formula.

For those who haven't read it, I think you'll find this article about Scott's B/SA Bird very interesting.









1970 Pontiac Firebird - High Performance Pontiac Magazine


Read more about the 1970 Pontiac Firebird that is the current fastest NHRA Stock Eliminator in the United States here at www.highperformancepontiac.com- High Performance Pontiac Magazine




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I'll edit & add the wins as I find 'em.

He won the '11 Mile-High nats, @ his home track. It was an All-B/SA heads-up final.

DENVER - Stock Eliminator Final, Round 6 Eliminations

He won this '12 div 7 race. It was an All-Pontiac final. The RU was a guy Scott helped build his car, which was a 455 powered '73 Formula, which we'll talk about later. They were #4 & #5 qualifiers @ this race.






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Won the '15 Vegas Toyota Nats.






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Won this div 6 double-breakout race in '17.






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RU @ this '18 div 7 race.






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Got a holeshot class win @ this '18 Vegas nat event






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In the B/SA class final @ the '19 Baby Gators, the new owner of the car ran a 10.135. That MAY be it's quickest pass in Stock Elim competition. Not sure. 






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Well, I could go on & on with race results. But, ya'll get the picture. It was the quickest Pontiac Stocker ever & won lots of events.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Now for 1971 Birds.

From what I've read the 455HO engine was a winner the 1st year they were on the track. Seems they dominated the H/S & H/SA classes. class. I think I read about an H/S class final with Gary Moore's "Acre Maker" Bird against Max Sterling's "White Lightning" Bird. Max won that round. But Gary's Bird did pick up some wins. Ya'll may remember that Gary was a div 4 points champ & nat record holder, in a '61 Pontiac.

One of the few ways I can tell an original '71 Bird is by the front fender vents. As most of you probably know, these vents are aprox 3-4" tall & maybe 10-12" long. Have never measured one. Anyhow, NHRA has never seemed to care whether you run these on the early 2nd gens, or not. I've seen one quick Formy, running as a '73 model, which we'll talk about later, that has been running the '71 vents for several years. But, it does have the '73 grills. As many here probably know, the 70-'71 grills had small squares, the '72's had a honeycomb pattern, & the '73's had slightly larger rectangle shaped holes.

Anyhow, the main reason I brought that up is because I can't see any vents on the "Viking" fenders, in pic #10. The reason I included it in this batch of '71's is because it was marked up in the H/SA class. The '70 model 400 4-barrel engines would have put a '70 Bird in a higher class. And the Birds didn't get the 455, in '70. H was the Stock class most of the 71 455HO powered Birds ran, back then, from the info I've seen. So, I'm gonna say the Viking Bird was running as a '71 model. Could be wrong.

Remember I told ya'll that Scott Burton had raced Birds entered as a '71 & '72 models. Well, here a '71 @ the '04 US Nats, qualified #59, @ more than a sec under it's index. By that time, NHRA had raised the hp factor considerably, because of the quick times the 455HO Birds were layin down.






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I won't attempt to look up & post his wins driving a '71. If anybody is interested, all you have to do is go to DRC & do a search for Scott Burton. That'll locate some of his wins. He was also on the Q-list of most of the US Nats races listed on DRC. Also, he never hardly missed the Mile-High Nats near his hometown. I think it's always in July. He and his son Brad also raced at the Vegas races. They've held 2 a year for quite a while, as well as smaller div 7 races.

#9 is the Axemaker Bird. I think Sam Reuland was driving in this pic. It currently has a new owner, who's name is Johnson, IIRC. He & his son are supposed to race it.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Now for '72 Birds.

There are several to mention. 1st I'll mention again that Scott Burton ran a Bird as a '72 at some races, before his son Brad started driving one. Brad has won so much with his '72 that I'll devote the next post to it.

So, for this post, I'll see how many other '72 Birds I can find. I'll start with the Stockers.

The 1st one that comes to mind was built & raced by Tommy Olson. He was Truman Fields' sidekick & helper, back when Truman was racing the Bird he got from the McKinney's. Tommy built the '72 after Truman moved. He said that he did pretty good with it, with a lot of help from Ellison Engine service.

Gary Wood raced a 455HO '72. I reckin most of ya'll remember that he built 2 different '72 "Ton-a-Fun" wagons. He was driving this Bird, while Charlene was driving one of the wagons. She was winner & him RU in the Bird, @ one race.

Larry Maxwell & his wife ran a blue '72 Formy, for a while, out on the West Coast. Not sure if anybody raced it after that, or not. Probably did. I'll try to find out for sure.

Lee Bannister raced a '72. It had T/A fenders, but a Formula hood. But, it passed tech. He won quite a few races including at least 3 nat events. He got back-to-back wins @ the Gators. 






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Bill Foder raced it next. He put a T/A shaker hood on it, but did not add the T/A wheel well flares. But it passed tech. I have a pic of it from a 2020 race.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Now for the most famous '72 Bird Stocker.

It has been driven by Brad Burton, for several years now. Brad is of course Scott Burton's son. So, Scott provided all the knowhow for the initial set-up of the car. I'm sure Brad has learned a lot & is now quite knowledgeable himself. A few years back he moved to WA state, IIRC. So, he probably don't get to help his Dad work on the cars as much as he'd like to.

It has nothing to do with this subject, but I forgot to mention that Scott is an airline pilot, or at least was. I've read that he flies 747's.

I'll have to look up some info & links to post. But, I'll be able to tell when he began racing the '72 Bird, in nat & div events.

I think he won 2 div championships, maybe in 2010 & 2012. I'll check. Not even gonna try to link all his nat & div wins.

OK, the 1st year I found him on DRC was in 2005. He was driving Scott's '71 Formula. Then the next year he's listed driving a '72, with his Dad on the same lists, driving the '71. So, he's been driving more than 15 years.






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This article has some good info. They began building Brad's car in '04. In 2010, Brad won 2 nat events & 1 div race & was nat Stock champ. He & his Dad also got some other awards that year.

Burton Racing Wins NHRA Stock Eliminator National Championship and Joins K&N

Here's a DRC article about the 2010 champ win.






POMONA 2 -  Brad Burton is Stock Champion


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Here's another K&N article that was written after Brad won the 2012 Winter Nats. Has a lot of quotes from Brad.






K&N's Brad Burton Nails Stock NHRA Winternationals Victory


2012 NHRA Winternationals Stock Eliminator Champion Brad Burton Much like many teams competing on the NHRA sportsman circuit, the Burton Racing Team from Kirkland, Washington consists of more than one generation of drivers. Father Scott and son Brad, not




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This was posted on the Drag Results site, in 2012, after a div 6 race win.

"...Brad Burton took another step closer to the NHRA Lucas Oil Stock National Championship with a win over Dave Barcelon. This is Burton’s fifth win of the year increasing his points lead to more than 200..."

How 'bout a father-son final @ a national event. How special that must have been. That win also helped Brad win the 2012 championship.






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Can ya'll stand some Brad & Dad video ?






You can find other YouTube videos of Brad wins. Here's something I didn't know. In 2012, when Brad won his 2nd championship, fellow Pontiac racer, Leo Glasbrenner, who I've covered here, was RU.



PONTIAC ZONE TECH FORUMS - View Single Post - Congratulations to Leo Glasbrenner in NHRA ND



Well, I could post TONS more about Brad' wins. But that's plenty for now.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

I'm sure there have also been quite a few '72 Birds run in SS. Can't think of any recently. But I have pics of a few.

Bob Michael has posted that he had run a '72 455HO powered Bird, then later changed it over to a '73, with SD455 power. Some pics I have of it shows an Insurance name on the side. IIRC, he said some of his kin sold that insurance. From the pics I have, it appears that the car was running in div 1. Then it appears with the name Michael, plus 2 others, on the door. Appears to have the same "Ellison" decal over the rear wheel well. So, I assume it's the same car as in pic #1. 

The other pics of it have Bob Michael's #3240 on it. Appears to have slapper bars on it. I think that back in the old days the SS guys were not allowed to have the fancy ladder bar & 4-link suspensions. But, they were probably allowed to run the biggest tire that would fit in the factory fender well. Then, at some point, they were allowed to install bigger "tubs", narrowed rear ends, 14x32 slicks, ladder bars, 4-link, wheelie bars, etc. There have been LOTS of changes in Stock & SS rules, thru the years. 

When they gutted the Stock rules for '72, Gary Moore switched over to to running a '72 455HO powered Formula, in SS. With it, he set the SS/F mph record. 

Another gold Formula had Barnett on the side. Don't have any performance specs for it. But I do have a pic of it @ Indy.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Now for some '73 Birds.

There have been lots of these run, in Stock & SS. The main reason, especially in the early days was the SD455 engine. Since I've already mentioned that Bob Michael switched his '72 455HO Bird over to a '73 SD455 Bird, I'll begin with it. 

It appears that he painted it Black, right away, since all my pics show it black. As I'm sure most here know, the '73 SD455 Formula came with a T/A shaker hood. Not sure, but I seem to remember that he won a nat event with it. If I find any good win info I'll post it later. 

He later sold it to Don Kennedy. As you can see in the pics, Don painted it Blue. As we'll see later on, Don switched over to GT Super Stock, running an SD455 in a 3rd gen Bird body. He's still racing today, in GT SS. But, I'll have an entire post on his GT cars, maybe 2.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

There have been a couple of more pretty famous '73 SD455 drag cars. The next one we'll look at was the Herslow & Morlock Bird. They started out running it in Stock. The early pics I have of it show it in a lower class. So, I don't know that it was a factory SD455 car. But it later moved up to a higher class, which would have required either an upgrade to an SD455 engine, a weight break change, or a horsepower hit from NHRA. It had only "455" decals on the shaker, rather than "SD-455". But, I realize that anybody could add or change shaker decals. 

In pic #1, it is unlettered. It was running in G class, & was running Truman Fields' '68 Bird, as it was lettered in '73. So, I assume that pic was made in either '73 or '74. 

Don't know when it was set, but it had "NHRA Nat Record Holder" over the rear wheel wells, when it was still running G/SA. It made the cover of SS&DI mag, which is a famous pic in old-school Pontiac drag racing circles. In that pic it was marked E/SA. As said, don't know if an engine switch changed the class, or an NHRA change. 

It was later switched over to SS. Phil Szupka bought & raced it for a while. In the SS pics I have of it, there is writing over the doors saying that it was an NHRA rec holder in '74, '75, '76, & '77. Don't know if any of those last rec were in SS or not. Don't know exactly when it was changed over to SS.

The last I knew of it, Phil Monteith bought it, put a '74 front & rear on it, & raced it with a 400 engine. Sal Biondo got his 1st nat event win in it. We'll talk about Phil & Sal more later, especially Phil.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Another famous '73 SD455 Bird belongs to John Clegg, from South Texas.

He bought it new & got the D/S win @ Indy, in '73. Didn't race it in Stock very long. Most early pics I've seen show it running either SS/I or SS/J. It was a real SD455 Formula, which meant it had a T/A shaker hood.

I'm sorry to report that after a few years John swapped over to Chevy powered, to go quicker. 

BUT, I'm happy to report that in recent years they did a resto & upgrade to current SS specs, and with SD455 Pontiac power, It is currently the quickest reg SS class Pontiac powered car there is, running some mid 9's. There are several GT class Pontiac powered cars quicker, but no regular SS class cars are. It has a 4-speed stick. John's son, J.B. Clegg drives it.

I suppose that in Pontiac drag racing circles this car is sort of a hero.

We'll talk more about the Clegg's later.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

As far as I know, there is only 1 SD455 Stocker currently active.

It was not an original SD455 car. It ran with a D-port 455 for years. It was raced as a '73 Formula. The owner is Michael Brand. Scott Burton helped him set the car up for racing. So it's run pretty strong the whole time. Michael has got some class wins. His wife has driven it some too. They've only had the SD455 in it for a couple of years.

I'll have to look up some of the car's performance numbers & wins. But I know it's run some mid 10's. The color is now baby blue. So it's quite easy to ID, either with the scooped hood or the shaker hood

I know he won $3k for the RU spot @ a big race last year. 

He won this div 5 race in '13.






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Got the G/SA class win @ the '15 Northern SPORTS nats.

He got a holeshot class win @ the '15 Thunder Valley Nats.






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Also got the Stock win @ that race !






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He was RU & class winner @ the '16 4-Wide.






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He picked up a class win @ the '16 Mile-High Nats.






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Got the holeshot class win @ Indy '16.






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Lindsey got RU @ this div 2 race in '17.






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He got a holeshot class win @ the '18 gators.

GAINESVILLE - Stock Eliminator Round 1 Class Eliminations

Well, we can see from this that Michael's Bird is very competitive. 

I also just found a post saying Michael's Bird is the same Bluebird Larry Maxwell & his wife raced as a '72 model, probably with 455HO power.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Before we get too far away from Michael Brand, lets talk about a '73 that he helped with.

After he moved from CO to the Southeast, Michael didn't find many Pontiac racers. I think I read that he converted a Chevy racer for a brief period of time. The guys name is Adam Davis. Car has '71 front fenders, with the vents in 'em. But Adam ran it as a '73 Formula.

He ran the '73 D-port 455, just like Michael was running at the time. Don't know exactly how much Michael helped with the car. Probably a good bit. Anyhow, they got it running quite well. I think it ran more than a sec under it's index @ Indy. But, I'll check & see what I can find.

I know it has changed hands a couple of times, since Adam had it. A CA racer named C.W. Hoefer has had it now for a few years. It is still very competitive. And it's easy to spot at any race track. It's loud yellow.

@ this div 2 race, Adam had go 7 rounds to win it. Cut some great lights along the way.






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During the '15 US Nats F/SA class elims, Adam cut a perfect .000 light & ran a 10.802, which was more than a sec under his index & good enuff for #43 on the Stock Q-list. But in the class final, his opponent cut a .002 light, to Adam's .028 light. So, Adam couldn't quite get to the line 1st. By the way, Michael Brand was the G/SA winner. I'm sure they ran different classes, on purpose.






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He was #1 qualifier @ this div 2 race.

LODRS 2-6 - Stock Eliminator Qualifying, Saturday Final Order

He won another 7-rounder @ Zmax.






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He won the Auto Combo class at the 4-Wide Nats. Michael was the G/SA class winner.






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He won this div 2 race, with a final round double breakout win.






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@ Indy '17, Adam was #74 with a 10.827, which was more than a sec under his 11.85 index.






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In Sept of '17, he put the Yellow Bird up for sale.






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@ Indy '18, Brad Plourd was racing the Bird. He qualified #62 with a 10.798.






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The Yellow Bird still ran a sec under, after C.W. Hoefer got it.






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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

There have been other quick '73 Birds. 

One belongs to Allen Hollingsworth. It will also run a sec under it's index.






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Another is driven by Ryan Schloe, out on the West coast. I think I may have mentioned that he ran it as '71 model for a while. But, because the #4X heads make more power than the #66 heads, the '73 combo is more competitive. 

Ryan's Bird will also run about a sec under, with the '73 combo. 






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In pic #1, there are 3 Pontiacs. Don Turk's T-37, Allen Hollingworth's '73 Bird, & Todd Kuhn's '70 GTO. 

This post is under construction.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Before we leave '73 models, I'll mention 3 more.

Jack Mullins put one together to run as an SD455 powered T/A. I read that he lost a nat event class race to Bob Michael @ the Gators in '78, IIRC. So, he decided to sell the car. We saw it @ the '78 Cajun Nats & took the pics of it.






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Glen Tinsley bought it & raced it for a while. Did pretty good with it & set some records.






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But, he had a problem getting use to breakout style racing. He'd lock the brakes up @ the finish line sometimes. Blew out several sets of the thin Moroso Front Runner tires. You can see the tire smoke in pic #4. And you can see that the car is still on the track, with a flat tire, in pic #5.

Lloyd Robinson also raced a '73 SD455 powered T/A.

And, Russ Abrams also raced a '73 SD455 Formy.

I have no specific wins to report for these cars.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

OK, lets move on to '74 model Birds.

I'll begin with the quickest one I know of, against it's index. It was driven by Bob Mulry. It was part of the A&M (Aceves & Mulry) Racing team I've mentioned.

It set the nat record in J/SA, K/SA, & L/SA. I'll post pics of those 3 records. They had to install all the T/A parts, in order to qualify for the L/SA class. Most of the pics I have show it with a Formula hood. It ran the 4X head 400 engine.

It most always qualified near the top of the Q-list & was #1 qualifier several times. Some of those ET's were 1,5 secs under it's index. Lots of 'em were 1.3 & 1.4 under. It was simply one of the quickest Stockers running, in that time period, against it's index. I'll try to look up & post some of the #1's & really quick ET's.

When Bob sent me the nat record copies & a few pics, he mentioned that there was a possibility that they MIGHT do a little more racing with it. Not holding my breath on that.

I have the record certificates in the order they were set. K/SA in May '03. L/SA in July '03. J/SA in '04. For that J/SA record, I don't know if they got an NHRA hp hit over the winter, or if they just wanted to ad another record, so removed some weight. Never thought to ask. But, since they swapped out the Formula & T/A parts to run L/SA, just removing some weight to run J/SA wouldn't have been a problem for them.

#1 @ 1.579 under.






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#1 @ 1.502 under.






LODRS 7-6 - Stock Eliminator Qualifying, Session #1 Order


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#1 @ 1.437 under.






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#1 @ 1.431 under.






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#1 @ 1.413 under.






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@ the '04 US Nats he was the K/SA class winner & #4 qualifier.






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Well I could post lots more. But I think ya'll get the picture. In '03 & '04 the Bird was awesome, against it's index.

Stockers can't produce quick times like that now, or the horsepower police will put a quick stop to it. They can make some cars almost non-competitive in heads-up runs, with just one hp hit. So, the Stock & SS racers today are careful to keep their times below a certain level. Most try to never run a whole sec under their index. That way they won't draw as much attention from NHRA. That has produced LOTS of "sandbaggin". Some run heavy to slow their car down. Some de-tune, or maybe change their shift points. There are lots of ways to go slower.

But hey, if you wanna play the game, you must abide by the rules, or accept the consequences, if caught.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Let's talk about some more '74 Bird Stockers in this post.

Lindy Lindholm raced one, out on the West coast, 'til somebody stole it, a few years back. Leo Glasbrenner, with a lot of help from the police, finally located it. Leo repaired & updated everything & surprised Lindy with it at a race. I thought that was a cool story of one racer helping another. 

Lindy won the J/SA class @ the '14 Vegas Toyota Nats.






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He was #5 @ the '16 Winter Nats @ more than a sec under his index.






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He won the I/SA class in '16, @ both Vegas races.






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He began 2017 strong with a #1 qualifying position @ the Winter Nats.






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Dwaine Davis is still racing a '74 Stocker, up in div 5. His only claim to fame, that know of, is the Mile-High Nats RU, to the Pontiac Wagon of Gary Riley. We covered that earlier in the thread. He has a nice '74 Bird Stocker that will run safely, more than a half sec under it's index.

John Clegg's "Mission Garage" has been sponsoring a '74 T/A Stocker for several years. There have been at least 2 different drivers. I ASSUME that John or J.B. Clegg own it, but not sure. Has SD-455 on the shaker scoop. So, I suppose it's SD455 powered. I don't remember any wins for the car. But, it has run almost a sec under it's index, which was good enuff for #18 on this Q-list.






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Devon Dioguardi, who now drives the car, is John Clegg's grandson. He got RU @ this Topeka div race, last summer. Noticed that he cut a perfect light in the semi-final bye run, but left too soon in the final. 

LODRS 5-2 - Stock Eliminator Final, Round 7 Eliminations .

I think all 3 of these are 11 sec cars. Pretty sure none have run into the 10's.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Time for some '74 SS Birds.

I'll start with the most famous one I know of. It was made famous initially by West Coast guys who ran H-O Racing Specialties. Some of you younger guys made have never heard of them. They not only built & raced Pontiacs but sold parts for Pontiacs & had a regular newsletter, with Pontiac pics & featured cars, many of which were Stock or SS cars. Our '68 Bird was the feature car in a '75 issue. I've posted some others here, earlier. You could write H-O & they would send you there recommendations. I used some of their info when building my 2 Stockers. Hey, we didn't have the internet back then. Info was mostly words, printed on paper. For Pontiac guys, there was mostly H-O on the West coast & Nunzi Romano on the East coast. Lots of the older Pontiacs I've posted pics of here had H-O decals on 'em.

The famous H-O Bird was a red '74 SD455 powered T/A. In '77, it set the SS/KA nat record @ 11.31. That sounds slow, now, since the Stockers run quicker. I also have pics of both a black & a white Bird with H-O on 'em. Don't know who owned 'em, or who drove 'em. H-O may have owned 'em, or just sponsored 'em.

We saw the red H-O Bird run @ the '78 Cajun Nats. But for some reason which I can't explain, we didn't take any close-up pics of it. Couldn't get very close to the starting line, so the pics of it are a little fuzzy. I don't have any info about any races they may have won. But I'll post a pic of their nat record certificate.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

So, what ever happened to that red H-O car ?

I don't know it's exact history. But I have one pic of it, with the H-O part removed from the door. The name on the window is Larry Pacey. So, I assume he owned it for a while. Has a div 2 perm number. So, the car was probably in Florida, or at least the Southeast. Larry had a big Pontiac wagon drag car.

As for the next chapter, I've read it 2 ways. 1st way says that Glen Tinsley bought it, & raced it for a while. Glen posted that he later traded it to John Clegg for a nice enclosed trailer John had.

Somebody else posted that John Clegg had bought it & leased it to Glen, while he raced it. I'll post the mag pic which shows it & John Cleggs '73 SD455 Bird in a posed shot. In pic #3 you'll notice that Glenn said he was running a 400 engine at that time. Claims to have been #3 qualifier at the '84 Gators. Also claims to have been #1 qualifier @ the Baton Rouge div 4 points race & won a race. Those results could have been easily checked, at the time, so I suppose it's true.

One thing I do know, for sure, is that The Clegg's ended up with it. J.B. Clegg raced it for a while, with both an auto & a stick trans.

Here's a quote from Craig Hendrickson, himself, on the PY forum, back in 2010.

"...my 455SD race car is now owned by J.B. Clegg in Victoria, TX. It runs 10.40s in NHRA SS/J."

There are lots of Q-lists showing J.B. driving it back then, posted on DRC. Here's one from the '09 Cajuns, He ran SS/JA & was #33 @ more than a sec under it's index.






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Then, at some point, they did a complete resto & upgrade. There are lots of pics of this project on the Mission Garage website. I didn't like the paint scheme, at all. Had what appeared to be huge bullet holes, on the sides. Anyhow, this time they went with a 4-speed stick. J.B. eventually got it to run down close to the mid-9's. The significance of that is that it was the quickest ET any regular SS class Pontiac powered Pontiac had ever run. The previous quickest was the John Angeles '69 RAIV powered Bird, driven by his daughter Keri, which has been mentioned earlier in the thread. I've read that happened in 2000. I'll post a link to one of the quick times the '74 Bird turned, along with some pics of it, after H-O sold it.

Here's a 2018 Houston race, where it was #12, with a 9.62, which was almost a sec under.






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OK, ya'll can click on the Mission Garage photos link, then scroll down to near the bottom of the page to see "JB's Race Car Rebuild". There are several galleries, showing pics of the resto/rebuild/upgrade project. There are obviously lots of other pics & videos that might be of interest to Pontiac guys. I've enjoyed some of 'em myself. But, be aware that John's 3rd gen Bird is NOT Pontiac powered. I think it's engine used some sort of BBC based platform.  He even switched his original '73 SD455 Bird over to non-Pontiac power, way back yonder. But, thankfully, as we've seen, it now uses Pontiac power & is THE quickest active reg SS class Pontiac powered car. So, the Clegg's own the 2 quickest reg SS class Pontiac powered Pontiacs in history.

John and Judy Clegg's Mission Garage - Photos & Video

Here's a couple of posts from Craig Hendrickson, about the car.






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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

OK, here's 7 more '74 Birds that ran SS. 

Johnny Duncan built quite a few Pontiac drag cars. Some are still running.

Bill Foder's son, also named Bill, races a former nat events winning '72 Stocker, as we've seen earlier. 

We've also seen the Reiter Bird, as a Stocker.

Also, the Bird that Sal Biondo drove to his 1st nat event win was the original Herslow & Morlock '73 T/A, which Phill Monteith changed over to a '74 model, which has already been mentioned.

Wilbert Thornton's Bird is still active. At this '21 div 1 points race it was #47, with a 10.59.






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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Notice !

It's quite possible that I could miss some cars that should be included in some of these groups. If any of ya'll know of any, please post that info. And if you have decent pics of those cars, post 'em. If you know of the cars, but don't have pics, you can still post the info. I'll try to help find some pics.

When I think of '75 model Pontiac Stock/SS cars, only one comes to mind.

The '75 is a blue Formy, which has been raced for years by div 6 racer, Ryan Warter. He has won several events, including a big win @ the Northwest Nats, which was an All-Pontiac final against Randi Lyn Shipp's '67 Bird. In this video clip Ryan mentions that he was RU to Pontiac racer Brad Burton, at a previous race there. Pretty cool to be in 2 All-Pontiac Stock finals at a nat event. 






Brad hasn't beaten Ryan every time they've raced. Ryan won this final round at a div 6 race.






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Don't know the car's quickest time. It qualified with a .940 under, 11.51, @ this race.






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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

OK, it's time for '76 Birds.

Just as for the '75, I know of only 1. It's a base model, with a plain flat hood. It was raced for several years by Mike Morgan. You'll see that name again when we get to the '77 model Birds.

Mike raced it for several years. It won the K/SA class at Indy, in '11 & '14. He was #24 qualifier in '11, @ more than a sec under.






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.

In '14 he ran an 11.584, to easily win the K/SA class. That was more than a sec under his 12.65 index. Don't know what his best-ever time was.






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He won 4 rounds, then went a little too quick in round 5. But hey, a class win & 4 round wins @ Indy ain't a bad showing.






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Here's and ad for when he sold it. He mentions Parsons & Myers & Heads-Up. Ya'll may remember me mentioning P&M, back when talkin about Bill Rink's '74 GTO. Those 2 businesses have built some top notch Stock/SS engines.






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Mike sold it to Kevin Love, in Canada. Kevin says he won't get to race it much, because it's a long trip to a track. I think his closest nat event is @ BIR in Brainard MN. I think he may have also made a few div 5 races.

@ the '15 Lucas Oil Nats @ BIR, he won the K/SA class & was the highest Pontiac qualifier, @ #12.






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I only have 4 decent pics, & one of them is sorta fuzzy.

Note: For anyone interested in seeing more pics. Many of these cars I'm talkin about have pics posted on the Auto Imagery Site. For those who are not familiar with it. They sell drag car pics. But, they'll let you look, for free. Catch is, they now have a very noticeable copyright notice across the pic. But it's small enuff print so that you can get a good look at the cars. They have 6 pics of this car, after Kevin Love put "Westward Preowned Cars & Trucks", on the doors.

https://autoimagery.photoshelter.com/search?I_DSC=kevin+love&G_ID=&C_ID=&I_DSC_AND=t&_ACT=usrSearch


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

OK, it's time for '77 Birds.

There are quite a few I can mention. I suppose the 1st one should be the "Kemo Sabe" Stocker. It was raced for years by Don Holmes. His son, Rob, or Robbie, is still racing it.

The earliest pic I have of it, I've already posted in the Bob Mulry post. But, I'll post it here, again. To me, it's sort of a famous pic, because it's a couple of the most competitive Pontiac powered Stockers of that time period, running in the class final @ Indy. It's a little fuzzy, because I had to enlarge it from a very small pic. Would love to have a large clear pic of it, in case anybody knows where I can get one.

I'll go back & pull up a few Q-lists to show that it usually qualified high on the Q-sheet, when Don was driving it.

#2 @ the '99 Craftsman Nats.






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#4 @ 1.264 under @ the '99 US Nats.






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How 'bout a #3 @ 1.309 under ?






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Also got K/SA win.






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#2 @ Indy 2000, & K/SA class winner. Notice that it's listed as a '78 model. I think all you have to change is maybe the grills, to change from '77 to '78 or vice versa. Pontiac guys have swapped back & forth between years, to get the most competitive combo, at the time.






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#13 @ the '04 US Nats, & RU to Bob Mulry in class K/SA.






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#1 @ The '05 Pontiac Nats.






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Since Rob has been racing it, he has done well. I'll post some links to prove it.






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#26 @ Indy '09 @ 1.185 under.






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He won the J/SA class @ this '14 SPORTSnationals race. For the rest of this thread I'll abbreviate SPORTSnationals, as "Sn".






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Highest of all Pontiac qualifiers @ this '17 Sn race, @ #27.






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#9 @ this '18 Sn race. .966 under.






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'18 Sn J/SA class win.






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He was the highest of 4 Pontiac qualifiers @ this '19 Sn race.






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#2 @ this '19 div 3 race.






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#25 & class RU @ '21 US Nats.






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#17 @ more than a sec under, @ the '21 Indy Fall Classic.



https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=575410&d=1634486037



Won this div 3 race last Oct, in 7 rounds.






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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Here's 3 more '77's. Well, I suppose I'll have to combine the '77's & '78's, since most of 'em seem to have switched back & forth, depending on which year model would be the most advantageous, at he time.

2 of these have been record holders, for sure. The Dave Ribeiro Bird was a 2-year record holder. The Bill Edgeworth Bird was also a record holder.

Here's some specs Dave posted about his Bird, back in '03.






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At this '04 Lucas Oil Nats race, Dave got down to 6 cars, where his opponent cut a perfect .000 light. Dave qualified with a .926 under, 12.02.






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I asked Dave which engine is the most competitive, in a '77 Bird, a 400 or 350. He said that since NHRA has raised the hp factor of the base 400 engine so much, he feels that the 350 is now more competitive. The 350 has been @ 254hp since '16. The 400 has been @ 283hp, in Birds, since '03. Note that the cars Dave called "Can Am" are actually '74 "Grand Am" models.






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EngineSpecs







__





EngineSpecs






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The Paul Dilcher & Chad Smith Birds are one-in-the same. Chad just decorated it a little different. I'll try to look up some decent race results for each driver.

Just a few months back, @ this div 1 race, Chad was #7 @ .971 under.






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Check this out. 4 of the top 6 qualifiers were Pontiac powered ! Bill Edgeworth was #6. Some Pontiac "Heavy Hitters".






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Highest qualified Pontiac @ the '15 NW Nats @ #5.






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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Breaker ! Breaker !

I interrupt this thread for this special presentation !

Here is THE best drag racing video I have ever seen !!!!! 

There was not a know-it-all announcer trying to impress us with how much he knows & cool he is. (That's no badmouth to anybody in particular, since I don't know any of 'em.)

But the main thing was that they actually had the mic turned up & close enuff to the starting line to actually hear the nasty Stocker cams thump & the high stall converters do their thing.

The camera guy got lots of zoom-in shots. At night, you could see the dial-in & ET of both cars.

The camera was close enuff so that you could see each cars staging progress.

Hey, for those who like Stock Eliminator racing, it just don't git no better'n nis !

If you like Stock Eliminator racing, at all, you'll love this video. And, there are several old school Pontiac powered cars in it. Those I remember seeing were Billy Nees - 301 '79 Lemans, Randi Lyn Shipp - 400 '67 Bird, Juilie Biermann - 400 '68 Bird, Chris Stephenson - 400 '68 Bird. Looked like Billy broke another 301(or something), on his pass. He's said that he & his former racing partner, Don Himes, broke several 301's, back when 1st trying to get 'em to go fast. But, he said that if you back off & don't push 'em too hard, you CAN get one to run under the index & stay alive for a reasonable length of time. As many know, it's the crank that's the weakest link.

Anyhow, the video shows every round of Stock except the 1st round & the semi final round. Enjoy !


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Here's 3 more '77 Stocker Birds. Tibor Kadar did real good with this 1st one. Think I read that he ran a 350 in it. He then sold it to Tommy Pettigrew. Don't know if he ran a 350, a 400, or both. But, I was REALLY disappointed to read that he put a Chevy motor in it last year.



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Back in the old days, you could usually tell what engine a car was running, by the class it was put in. You couldn't add or remove weight, in order to move up or down a class, OR even to meet only the min weight requirement of your car's natural class. That's why some cars were just naturally more competitive. For example: The 330hp '68 Birds made a perfect 10lbs/hp E Stock class car. NHRA min weight was 3300lbs. And they used the factory 330hp rating for a long time.

AND, it was basically the same engine that was rated 350hp in a GTO. So, my '68 Bird was much more competitive than my '69 GTO, running the 350hp engine. Both cars made the even 10lbs/hp class. But, that meant that my Goat had to be 200lbs heavier than the Bird. Plus, they did not weigh the cars with the driver. TJ only weighed 100lbs. I weighed well over 200. So, I had a 300+ lbs handicap. PLUS, the little Bird has less wind resistance. That's probably one of the main reasons why there have been so many '68 Bird Stockers & so few 350hp '68 & '69 GTO Stockers.

NHRA has leveled the GTO vs Firebird playing field, in recent years by reducing the hp rating of the 350hp GTO engine, to slightly less than the 330hp Bird engine. 325hp for the Goats vs 333hp for the '68 Bird with auto trans. But, @ current prices for a clean GTO body, don't think there will be lots of guys rushing to build a '68 or '69 GTO Stocker. You can usually buy a competitive Stocker MUCH cheaper than you can build one. BUT, there are a FEW guys who, on purpose, build Stocker from scratch, which will cost very little, but still run under the index. Billy Nees, who I've mentioned, is one of the master of these "Dime Rockets", as they are called. That's how he came up with racing a 301, because nobody wanted the junkyard 301's except a few 301 Turbo guys, who wanted the 301T blocks & other turbo engine related parts.



EngineSpecs





EngineSpecs



Tlbor is a real good driver. He has won some big bracket races in his early GTO. He was RU in national Stock points, in '06.






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He won class @ the '06 Vegas Summit Nats. Check out all the Pontiac powered class wins ! D/SA, E/SA, F/SA, K/SA, L/SA, & P/SA. Pretty good Pontiac showing !






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And Pontiacs were #1, #4, & #7 on the Q-list !






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He won the 1st SPORTSnationals race, @ Fontana.






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The 2nd Bird I'll mention is what I call the "Biondo Bird". It has been in the famous Biondo racing family for quite a few years now. I know that Peter, Sal, & Dylan Biondo have raced it. It now has "Hatari" on the side. So, that means that Phil Monteith has a hand in it, somehow. Phil has been connected to the Biondo family, for a quite a while. I'll talk about that a lot more when we get into the GT SS cars. Pic #9 shows Dylan posing with a check, representing the $500 he won for being RU in a race, not too long ago.



https://autoimagery.photoshelter.com/image?&_bqG=94&_bqH=eJwrTq50MwvzKY3IcXbxMClPTgkzc03xLA9wD0y2MjcwtjI0MABhIOkZ7xLsbFucmKOdlJmfl5KvBhaId_RzsS0BskODXYPiPV1sQ0GKjUzTi71SnEy9PDzV4h2dQ2xLi4uCUxOLkjPU3EGK1JxBJAAxBiVa&GI_ID=





https://autoimagery.photoshelter.com/image?&_bqG=99&_bqH=eJxz9y3WdQ0L8HJ2sjAKsIwq9HJLN3e1MCour8q3MjcwtjI0MABhIOkZ7xLsbBucmKPtlJmfl5KvBhaId_RzsS0BskODXYPiPV1sQ0GKjUzTi71SnEy9PDzV4h2dQ2yLUxOLkjMAuWsf7Q--&GI_ID=



In '04, Sal qualified @ more than a sec under & made it to the semi-final round, @ Indy.






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The last pic shows what I call the "HPP Mag Bird". It was built by Mark Yacovone, & driven by he & his wife, Carol. The links I'll post show that his wife was driving. The car ran quite well. Dave Batta runs the car now. I only have one pic of it, which is fuzzy. Auto Imagery shows 3 pics taken while Dave has had it.



https://autoimagery.photoshelter.com/search?I_DSC=dave+batta&G_ID=&C_ID=&I_DSC_AND=t&_ACT=usrSearch



@ Englishtown, in '98, Carol qualified @ more than a sec under & won L/SA. Dave Ribeiro was right below her on the lists. 






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Check it out. 5 Pontiac class winners in a row, L/SA, M/SA, N/SA, O/SA, & P/SA. Another good Pontiac showing.

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All 3 of these cars have been strong running Stockers, at some point in their life, & all 3 are still racing.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Now, how 'bout a couple of SS Birds ?

The 1st one was raced by Sal Piacentini, in div 1. It's a Gold '77 350 powered Formy. For the last several years it has been raced by former Stock racer, Mike Morgan, who I've mentioned. It has won class @ Indy '16 & was RU 3 times.






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@ Indy '18, he was #11 @ 10.617, which was 1.233 under his index. That's pretty quick for a little 350 Pontiac, in a '77 Bird. The quickest time I remember seeing for him was 10.41 @ a div 3 race. But that was running L/SA. So, it wasn't as far under the index as that Indy time.

INDY - Super Stock Final Qualifying, Session #4 Order

Check it out. Mike ran a 10.414 to a 10.555 for fellow 350 Pontiac racer, Bill Rink.






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Saw recently that he had it up for sale. Looked like a bargain price to me, considering the current cost to build a Pontiac SS car that will run a sec under the index.






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Pic #9 is of a Bird that has Bob Michael on the door. I don't have any other info on it. But everything Bob Michael raced ran pretty good.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

I forget 1 strong running '78 Stocker.

It was driven by Dave Edwards. Qualified near the top of a lot of Q-sheets. It was a white T/A. Don't know what happened to it. Haven't seen a white T/A running Stock, in recent years. Some class cars are sold & shipped overseas. It seems there are quite a few racers in Sweeden. That's where Scott Burton's low 10-sec '70 RAIV Bird went. Have read of a couple of other Pontiac Stockers that went there.

Anyhow, I don't have a single pic of this T/A. But, there are quite a few on the Auto Imagery site. So, I'll pic a few good ones & post links to 'em.



https://autoimagery.photoshelter.com/image?&_bqG=11&_bqH=eJxzSs7IK8iJzMgPDyx08nbMdC1LSU7xLqo0dTGwsrC0MjQwAGEg6RnvEuxsm5JYlqqdmlKeWJRSrAYWinf0c7EtAbJDg12D4j1dbENByo1M04u9UpxMvTw81eIdnUNsS4uLglMTi5Iz1NxBitScQSQAp7wmdQ--&GI_ID=





https://autoimagery.photoshelter.com/image?&_bqG=6&_bqH=eJwLrTJIdcuyqAh0CihKSUp0Mi7MNAmKys1Ptcy3srC0MjQwAGEg6RnvEuxs65JYlqrtmlKeWJRSrAYWinf0c7EtAbJDg12D4j1dbENByo1M04u9UpxMvTw81eIdnUNsi1MTi5IzAFO.IY8-&GI_ID=





https://autoimagery.photoshelter.com/image?&_bqG=13&_bqH=eJxzdfUydSlJdzcMdCooynavqDSzMAlPDMrO8XO1srC0MjQwAGEg6RnvEuxs65JYlqrtmlKeWJRSrAYWinf0c7EtAbJDg12D4j1dbENByo1M04u9UpxMvTw81eIdnUNsi1MTi5IzAB2ZIQU-&GI_ID=





https://autoimagery.photoshelter.com/image?&_bqG=9&_bqH=eJyzrEzPr_JxDyuqKHH3d0.PzK1w8s8vzigoCjCxsrC0MjQwAGEg6RnvEuxs65JYlqrtmlKeWJRSrAYWinf0c7EtAbJDg12D4j1dbENByo1M04u9UpxMvTw81eIdnUNsi1MTi5IzAJpJIkM-&GI_ID=





https://autoimagery.photoshelter.com/image?&_bqG=15&_bqH=eJzLCDDydSzO98mrKnQxKXA18o8K9SvOz45y0jWwsrC0MjQwAGEg6RnvEuxs65JYlqrtmlKeWJRSrAYWinf0c7EtAbJDg12D4j1dbENByo1M04u9UpxMvTw81eIdnUNsi1MTi5IzADD8ISc-&GI_ID=



I'll also look up some good race & qualifying results & post links to those.

OK, right now, I'm not sure about this. But, the '78 T/A that Dave raced MAY be the same one that Bob Michael raced @ Indy, in '98. He qualified #12 @ more than a sec under, & won the M/SA class.






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Whether it was the same car or not, in 2000, Dave showed up @ Indy with an L/SA '78 T/A . Qualified #5 @ more than 1.2 sec under, & got the L/SA class win. You'll notice that fellow Pontiac racers Don Holmes & Danny Ashley also picked up their class wins. That Danny Ashley '74 Grand Am is the same car that Don Turk later raced. It's still active by another owner.






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He shows up again @ Indy in '02 & is #12 @ more than a sec under.






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In '03, he was bumped up to J/SA & won that class. Was #17 @ more than a sec under.






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Looks like he & Don Holmes together put the NHRA horsepower police into action against their '77/'78 400 engine. In '04, Dave was now running I/SA. He was still more than a sec under @ #34, but was not a class winner. Don had switched his Bird over to a '77 model. Didn't see Dave's Bird on any list after '04. I suppose he retired it. 






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The hp factor for the '77 base 400, in a bird, was last increased to 284hp, at the end of the '03 season. So, that definitely explains the changes in class, for '04. The factor for the other 400 was up to 290hp by '06 & still is today, for both the '77 & '78 model Birds.





__





EngineSpecs






www.classracerinfo.com







EngineSpecs



Results like this is the reason Stocker guys today are so careful to NOT go quick enuff to get a hit from the hp police. As mentioned, some racers slow their cars down to prevent hp hits. That's the way the game is now played.

It was this kind of qualifying list that alerted the hp police about the 2 Pontiacs, in '03. They were #2 & #3, @ more than 1.2 sec under their index.






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----------



## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Now I wanna talk about what is probably the winningest '78 Pontiac SS Bird ever.

It was raced for many years by Ken Shawver, who later got Monte Howard to drive it for him. Ken got several Indy class wins with it & Monte got 2. AND, possibly the car's greatest achievement was being the #1 Super Stock qualifier @ the US Nationals, in 2005. It was 1.254 sec under it's index.






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Some may be interested in this. Monte Howard sent me some pics & info about his experiences driving the car.






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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Well, as ya'll know, '79 was the last year for the Pontiac 400. But, they were only available in 4-speed Birds. I've never seen nor heard of one running in NHRA Stock/SS.

So, that only leaves 301 powered cars. I've already mentioned the Billy Nees/Don Himes '79 Lemans. But, there have also been a few 301T Birds that have done good. Back before they got any big hp hits, there were some #1 qualifiers, class winners, & record holders.

Neil Smedley ran one & won a Wally with it. I'll look up which race it was & post it.

#1 div 7 in '01 @ 1.510 under. No tellin how many #1's he had. I've found 3, in just a few minutes of lookin. Not gonna look for any more.






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'01 Vegas Summit Nats - #1 qualifier & Stock Eliminator ! Pretty good showin for a little 301 Pontiac.






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Set the P/SA nat record with it, in '03.






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Rick Unterseh is the only guy I know of who has been racing one of these in recent years. He has recently bought one of the former 301T Stockers & is riggin it up for his wife to race.

These 301T parts are getting pretty hard to find. So, I'm guessing nobody else will ever try to build a 301T car from scratch. But, I've been wrong before.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Well, I've probably forgot some cars. If I think of others I'll add 'em to the thread.

But now I wanna start talkin about the Super Stock GT class cars.

I've read that Pontiac racer Don Kennedy came up with most of the rules which NHRA initially adopted to create this class.

It's a pretty simple & very reasonable idea. There are a lot more later model bodies that could be used to build a race car, than there are older bodies, from the Musclecar era. And, even if you find a good older body, it's likely to be WAY overpriced.

So, just allow SS racers to run the older engines, in the later model bodies. Don't matter that the same series of engines was not available in the body. Just run most any GM engine, that's listed in the NHRA guide, in any GM body, most any FoMoCo engine in any FoMoCo body, most any Mopar engine in any Mopar body, etc.

So, that means you could run a 428 Pontiac engine in any Bird or GTO, or any other Pontiac which had not even been built yet when the 428 was still in production. Could also run it in legal Chevy, Olds, Buick, & Caddy bodies. Could also run any of those brands NHRA legal engine in a Pontiac body.

Can also run later engines in earlier bodies. There's a limit to how old the body can be. I forget exactly what the oldest year is. Anyhow, there have been quite a few of these cars built, using Pontiac power. Most have probably run 400 engines. But some have run 350, 389, 428, & 455 engines. The 428 has become the most competitive Pontiac GT engine, because some Edelbrock alum heads are legal on it. That means that most any good shop could build a 428 Pontiac engine without hardly using a single GM part. The 2 quickest Pontiac powered GT cars are both 428 powered Cobalts. Both have run 8.90 or quicker.

But, I'll begin with Don Kennedy's GT cars.

His 1st was an SD455 powered 3rd gen Bird. I've read that he set some nat records with it. Best time I could find was 9.749 @ the '08 Winter Nats, which was more than a sec under.






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But for quite a few years now he's been running an alum head 428 in a Sunfire body. I think he 1st ran the SD455 in it. It has run some REAL low 9's, with the 428. And it has won class @
Indy.

Here's what he said about the new car's debut.






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Here's what he said in a short interview.






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And here's a long interview. Gotta skip the 1st 10 minutes tho.






He won a div 7 Vegas race in '12.






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Here's a video of the final round.






He was the GT/EA class winner @ Indy '20






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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Not really sure of the best order for the rest of these GT cars.

So, I'll just start with the oldest year model I can think of. That is a '68 Bird. It belongs to long time Pontiac racer Larry Maxwell. For power, he's running a '74 Pontiac 350. Same engine Bill Rink is running in his '74 GTO. The Bird actually looks like a Stocker. That may be why he chose the '74 350, so that he could get by with smaller tires & stock type suspension.



EngineSpecs



Not sure of it's best ET. But in one of the pics it has 10.84 marked on it. It turned a 10.822 @ the '19 Winter Nats. So, it's not real quick against it's index. But hey, a nice, black, '68 Bird drag car gets my vote. 






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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

The next oldest Pontiac powered GT car I can think of is the '74 GTO, raced by Carroll Warling.

Some may remember him from earlier in the thread. He had a record holding '74 SS/MA Lemans. He's now switched it over to GT, but, It doesn't look any different, so I won't post any more pics. BUT, he was planning to try a 428 engine with iron #216 heads. The significance of that is that those early '68 & somewhat rare #216 heads have some favorable port sizes listed with NHRA. So, more porting will be legal, with those heads. I've had some guys argue that the #216 heads were never installed on production line engines. BUT, Carroll & others have some. They apparently did come on some early '68 production line engines, and are NHRA legal.

Will have to look up some times for this GTO. Don't remember him winning anything with it.

It ran a 10.75 @ this '20 div 5 race in Kansas.

LODRS 5-5 - Super Stock Qualifying, Friday Order

Only have 4 good pics of it.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

I suppose the the next oldest model might be an '82 model Bird.

1st time I'm aware of it being raced with Pontiac power, was when Phil Monteith had it. Petter Biondo won his 1st SS championship driving it. IIRC, that was in 1997. So, I don't have any performance numbers for it. Only have one pic of it, as the Phil Monteith "Hatari" car.

The car was then sold to Bruce Fulper.

Note: I realize that Bruce has a real bad rep in the Pontiac community. For this post, I will only consider the Bird he raced & it's performance. Don't wanna bad mouth him or have anybody else do it, here in this thread. Thanks !

Since the big story for the car, while Bruce had it, was in 2004, we can look up the performance numbers. And they're pretty decent.

@ Indy, Bruce won the GT/DA class, even tho there were 3 cars that appeared to be quicker. In C-1, the 2 quickest cars ran each other & Bruce ran the only GT/DA car slower than his. In C-2, his opponent broke on the line. In the final, his opponent slowed, for some reason. So, even tho he didn't have the quickest GT/DA car there, he IS listed as the class winner.






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His qualifying time was 9.833, which was .967 under his 10.80 index.






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In pic #2, it's dialed a 9.66. I'll do a search & see if I can find a lower time for it.

OK, @ the '04 Winter Nats, it ran a 9.675, which was more than a sec under the GT/CA index. That's probably the race where it was dialed 9.66.






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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Here's a couple of more '80's Birds that have run GT. The 1st one is still active.

The 1st one I call the "McCarty Blackbird". Lynn McCarty has had it for quite a while. I think Casey McCarty has driven it, in recent years. Has run mid 9's. Not sure of it's all-time best ET. I think it has used both SD455 & alum head 428 power.

@ this '21 race, it ran a 9.503, which was .897 under. It's listed as a 1987 model.






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The 2nd Bird was raced by Bruce Campbell. In the 2 pics I've posted it still had the paint job that was on it when he got it. Notice on the front fender the "McKinney Racing Engines". That probably means that either Roy or Mike McKinney, or both, did his engine work. He later repainted it, with the name "TAT'R" on the doors. Don't have a good pic of that. But there is one decent pic on Auto Imagery.

https://autoimagery.photoshelter.co...XiHZ1DbEuLi4JTE4uSM9TcQYrUnEEkAIjjJjw-&GI_ID=

Here's a quote from what he sent me.

"I won the 1999 NHRA division 2 points meet @atlanta ga. Ran an old worn engine 6x 400 but still did ok. Ran the div2 national open in Montgomery Ala.don’t remember which year. Tried to get gt/ha record of 10.25 ,best it would run was 10.261, close but no cigar. Ran IHRA national event @ darlington SC,IHRA Divisonal &farmington nc (runner up). , IHRA Carolina dragway sc. (runner up). Hard to remember Dates of all races I entered, getting old and forgetful. Bruce Campbell former 2704 S/SS"

He was #8 @ this nat event.






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----------



## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

This next GT Bird may have had more top 5 qualifying spots than any 3rd gen Pontiac powered GT Bird ever.

It was raced by Victor Santos, then later by Bill Kennedy, who still races it. It is 400 powered. Don't know it's best ET. But I know it ran some high 9's. When Victor had it, it was near the top of lots of qualifying lists. I'll look some up & post links to a few. Don't know when he began racing it. I found him @ #2 on this 1998 IHRA Q-list.






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OK, @ the '15 Dutch Classic, Vic set a new GT/IA nat record of 9.99. Appears to have been the only Pontiac powered car to set a record @ that race.






Records set at the Dutch Classic


MOHNTON, Pa. --The highlight of the 44th annual Dutch Classic was the outstanding turnout of entries in NHRA's Stock and Super Stock. Super Stock offered a field of 101 cars, while Stock had a whopping turnout of 131 cars. The Stock turnout was th



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I found lots of races where he was among the top 3 qualifiers. But I'll list 4 of his #1 races. The 1st is the '13 Richard NO race.






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#1 @ '14 div 1 race. Also got 3rd place @ this race.






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#1 @ '15 New England Nats.






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#1 @ '15 Dutch Classic, & was SS RU. Hey, that means he was #1 AND set a new nat record, AND was SS RU @ one race. Cool ! 






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#2 @ '16 div 2 race. Made it to semi-final, where he got treed.






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Bill Kennedy:

Found several top 10's. Will post 3 top 3's.






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ENGLISHTOWN - Super Stock Final Qualifying, Session #3 Order 

GT/MA class win @ '19 Mopar EL Nats. 






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@ that same race, he lost a round by ONE inch, according to DRC. It's tuff when you cut an .018 light, run within .004 of your dial-in, and still lose.  






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Found some semi-final finishes, like this 3rd place @ the '19 Dutch. Didn't find any wins or RU's. 






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From pics #4 & #5, it appears that Vic had partnered with either Dave or Dean Ribeiro, @ some point, earlier I think.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Seems that '91 & '92 model birds are popular for the GT class. 

This one was raced by Steve Smith, followed by Scott & Brad Burton. I'm gonna separate 'em, & put only Steve Smith stuff on this post.

He won this '02 race.






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Possibly his biggest claim to fame was a div 1 SS championship, during the '02 season, & also being named "Driver of the Year". 






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The farthest under the index I saw was 1.233 @ this Toyo Nats race. But, he qualified more than a sec under lots of times. Here are just a few of 'em. 






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GT/GA class win @ the '14 Summer Nats. 






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Don't have any pics. But here are 3 on Auto Imagery. 



https://autoimagery.photoshelter.com/image?&_bqG=2&_bqH=eJwrCHPONyt0DTWJMg3M8DbzLAzMyzTOMTfzdE22MjU3sjI0MABhIOkZ7xLsbFtcklqWql2cm1mSoQYWiXf0c7EtAbJDg12D4j1dbENBqo1M04u9UpxMvTw81eIdnUNsS4uLglMTi5Iz1NxBitScQSQAK9AlXQ--&GI_ID=





https://autoimagery.photoshelter.com/image?&_bqG=5&_bqH=eJwrCHPONyt0DTWJMg3M8DbzLAzMyzTOMTfzdE22MjU3sjI0MABhIOkZ7xLsbFtcklqWql2cm1mSoQYWiXf0c7EtAbJDg12D4j1dbENBqo1M04u9UpxMvTw81eIdnUNsS4uLglMTi5Iz1NxBitScQSQAK9AlXQ--&GI_ID=





https://autoimagery.photoshelter.com/image?&_bqG=5&_bqH=eJwrCHPONyt0DTWJMg3M8DbzLAzMyzTOMTfzdE22MjU3sjI0MABhIOkZ7xLsbFtcklqWql2cm1mSoQYWiXf0c7EtAbJDg12D4j1dbENBqo1M04u9UpxMvTw81eIdnUNsS4uLglMTi5Iz1NxBitScQSQAK9AlXQ--&GI_ID=


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Now for the time the Burtons have had the Bird.

It appears that they kept the same paint scheme, including the blue center stripe. Scott & Brad have both driven it. Brad won a Wally. I think this is another car that ran a 400 for a while, then switched over to an alum head 428.

It usually qualified @ around .700 to .850 under it's index. I'll post links to some where it was at least .900 under.






LODRS 5-2 - Super Stock Qualifying, Saturday Final Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com










SONOMA - Super Stock Final Qualifying, Session #3 Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com










LODRS 6-1 - Super Stock Qualifying, Saturday Final Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com










LAS VEGAS 2 - Super Stock Final Qualifying, Session #3 Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com










LODRS 5-1 - Super Stock Qualifying, Saturday Final Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





Brad won this one !






LODRS 7-1 - Super Stock Final, Round 6 Eliminations


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com


----------



## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Another nice 3rd gen belongs to Greg Meyer.

He has mentioned that he protects his combo by NOT qualifying a sec under. The car has run a 9.90, but Greg usually qualifies slower than that. I'll post links to a couple of older lists, where he was more than a sec under. 






CHICAGO - Super Stock Qualifying, Final Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com










INDY - Super Stock Qualifying, Final Order (Pending Tech)


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





GT/HA class win @ '14 Lucas Oil Nats.

BRAINERD - Super Stock Class Eliminations Finals 

#3 & GT/HA class win @ '15 Lucas Oil Nats.






BRAINERD - Super Stock Final Qualifying, Session #4 Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com










BRAINERD - Super Stock Class Eliminations Finals


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





#2 & GT/HA class win @ '16 Lucas Oil Nats.






BRAINERD - Super Stock Final Qualifying, Session #1 Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com










BRAINERD - Super Stock Class Winners


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





#3 & GT/LA class win @ '17 Lucas Oil Nats.






BRAINERD - Super Stock Qualifying, Session #1 Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com










BRAINERD - Super Stock Class Eliminations Finals


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





RU @ '18 div 3 race.






LODRS 3-4 - Super Stock Final, Round 6 Eliminations


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





9.986 @ '18 div 3 race.






LODRS 3-6 - Super Stock Qualifying, Saturday Final Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

There have been a few Pontiac powered 4th gen GT Birds.

I'll begin with the famous Phil Motnteith "Hatari" Bird.

I think Peter Biondo won 3 national SS championships driving mostly this car. During that process, he obviously won LOTS of div races & national events. Because of all those wins, I assume this car has probably won more races than any other Pontiac powered SS car, ever. I wouldn't even attempt to list all the wins.

There have also been several other drivers, including Sam & Sal Biondo, John Agneta, & probably several others I'm not aware of. Phil Monteith probably made a few passes in it, himself.

I think it ran a 400 for years, then switched over to the alum head 428. Phil Monteith has had a lot of success with his Hatari Birds. I think he also either supplies, or has a hand in, the engines in the Agneta & Pickett 4th gen, & the Biondo Stocker. May not be the quickest engines, but they have proven to provide reliable, competitive power, for many years now. So, hat's off to Phil Monteith, for his contribution to Pontiac powered class racing !









I've seen it listed as a '98 & a 2000, for sure. Assume that would depend on which hood/front cap is being run. Assume there has only been one car. But I'm not sure of that.









Peter Biondo Pontiac Racing's Super Stock Champion


INDIANAPOLIS (December 21, 2000) - It's times like these, when most of the country remains encased in a layer of snow and ice, that our thoughts turn longingly to springtime and the warm drag-racing locales of Phoenix, Gainesville and ...




us.motorsport.com


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Leo Glasbrenner ran a Pontiac powered 4th gen, for a few years.

Ya'll may remember that Leo also raced a '68 Bird Stocker, which he still has. He has a Transmission Business, where he also builds racing automatics & sells parts for others to build 'em. He's good with the very popular metric 200's. I think they're also called a TH200.

Anyhow, I think his 4th gen ran a 455 at first, then ran the alum head 428 engine. Ran 9's. I'll look up some links to post.

@ this '13 Vegas race he ran 9.84, which was .840 under. Won GT/DA class.






LAS VEGAS SN - Super Stock Qualifying, Saturday Final Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





'18 Winter Nats 9.562 was .938 under.






POMONA 1 - Super Stock Final Qualifying, Session #3 Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





'18 Spring Vegas race - #23 - GT/HA class winner - Listed as 428 powered.






LAS VEGAS 1 - Super Stock Class Eliminations Finals


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





'18 Won this div 7 race in the mountains of Utah, with a .001 final round light.






LODRS 7-5 - Super Stock Final, Round 5 Eliminations


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





'19 Pomona Finals - #18 - 9.66 - .840 under.






POMONA 2 - Super Stock Final Qualifying, Session #3 Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





In 2020, he'd switched over to a late model. Don't know if anybody will race his Bird again, with Pontiac power.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Johnny Duncan built a 4th gen GT Bird.

It is now the Pickett & Agneta Bird. John Agneta does most of the driving. I think Phil Monteith is helping with it. Have a pic of 'em pitted together. And I have pics showing "Hatari" on it.

Someone posted this.






PY Online Forums - Bringing the Pontiac Hobby Together - View Single Post - 2018 Pontiac Powered Class Racing


PY Online Forums - The online meeting place for Pontiac Enthusiasts all over the world.



forums.maxperformanceinc.com





Greg Meyer posted that the Redbird runs a 4X head 400 engine.






PY Online Forums - Bringing the Pontiac Hobby Together - View Single Post - 2018 Pontiac Powered Class Racing


PY Online Forums - The online meeting place for Pontiac Enthusiasts all over the world.



forums.maxperformanceinc.com





'18 div 1 race - #12 - .797 under.






LODRS 1-6 - Super Stock presented by ATI Qualifying, Saturday Final Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





'21 Mopar Nats - #18 - .886 under.






READING - Super Stock Final Qualifying, Session #4 Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





Also got GT/LA class win.






READING - Super Stock Class Eliminations Finals


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

OK, let's look at 3 small later model cars

One is the other McCarty GT car. I think it's a Grand Am. Will correct that If I learn different. I think it did run mostly the SD455, but has been switched over to the alum head 428. It ran GT/AA, before they changed the weight breaks a few years back. They've run it @ Indy a few times. I'll see what I can find to post.

It ran 9.25 @ Indy '10. But there were several GT/AA cars just a little quicker.






INDY - Super Stock Qualifying, Final Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





@ Indy last year, it was RU in the GT/EA class final, to another 428 powered GT car, which just happens to be the quickest Pontiac powered GT car, that I'm aware of.






INDY - REVISED Super Stock Class Eliminations Finals


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





Irvin Johns' Cobalt has gone 8.70's. It also won the GT/FA class @ Indy '19, with Todd Frantz driving.






INDY - Super Stock Class Eliminations Finals


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





It was @ this '21 race where it ran an 8.782, which was more than 1.3 sec under it's index.



http://classracer.com/classforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=60867&d=1634491177



The next quickest Pontiac powered GT car, which is also a Cobalt, belongs to Robert Cruzen. He won the GT/AA class back in '16, with an 8.90 in the class final. He's also been at or very near the top of quite a few qualifying lists.






INDY - Super Stock Class Eliminations Finals


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





The only pic I have of Stacy's car, was taken back in the GT/AA days. Here's a link to some pics on Auto Imagery. Looks like they painted it a dark gray.



https://autoimagery.photoshelter.com/search?I_DSC=Stacy%20McCarty&_ACT=search&I_DSC_AND=t


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Well, as many Pontiac powered Stock & Super Stock cars as there have been, I'm bound to have missed some.

So, if ya'll know of some good ones I haven't mentioned, by all means, post your info. If you don't have pics, but the car ran at NHRA div & nat events, I may be able to help find pics of it.

The thought just came to me that I may not have mentioned the '77 Catalina Stocker that Bob Michael built. To me, it's a one-of-a-kind Stocker. And it's competitive. It won the L/SA class @ Indy last year, with an 11.895. 






INDY - Stock Eliminator Class Eliminations Finals


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





If ya'll have any questions about any of these cars or anything about Stock/SS racing, I think this would be a good thread to have that discussion on. I'll certainly be happy to contribute all I know. If somebody here can't come up with the right answer, I'll do my best find it.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

One thing that probably surprises a lot of those who don't know anything about SS racing is seeing a Q-jet carb on top of an 8, 9, or 10 sec SS car. I figure most expect to see a big square bore Holley type carb on top.

I always loved the Q-jet. Ran 'em on all our bracket cars. But, I'll have to admit that I WAS surprised to see 'em on so many 9 sec cars.

As far as I know, they only come in 2 venturi sizes. We call the smaller one a 750 & the larger one an 800.

Many know about the special '71 model Q-jet that had the small venturi, but no outer booster ring. It would flow more than a reg 750. There was a time when several class racers learned about this carb, & there was a rush to find 'em. But, NHRA found out about it & put a stop to it. I don't know if that carb is now even legal for the Pontiac combos it came on. I've read that besides some 455HO engines, it also came on a few 400 4-speed engines.

I assume lots of guys have removed the outer ring from their street or bracket Q-jet, in order to get more flow.

The large venturi models are legal for SD455s & '76 up, on most Q-jet equipped Pontiac engines, even some of the 301's.

I assume the Q-jet is one thing that made the Tri-Power cars really rare on drag strips around the country. The only 2 I know of that are still running Stock are Bob Michael's '62 GP & Norman Warling's '62 Cat. Both run the same 389 Tri-Power combo.

Right now, I can't think of anybody running a single AFB carb engine. But, I think I did mention that Norman ran a 421SD for a few races. I assume it has 2 AFB's.

There have also been a few guys run 2-barrel Pontiac combos. Don't know of one currently running. I wouldn't consider running a Pontiac powered Stocker that didn't have a Q-jet.

Here are some pics showing the differences in the small venturi double ring vs the large venturi double ring models, as well as 1 pic of the 455HO model which did not have the outer ring. 

Note: I realize that this is "old hat" info for LOTS of Pontiac guys. But, I assume there MAY be some here who have never even heard of that 455HO Q-jet, with no outer booster rings. So, for you guys who knew, it's just review. For those who didn't, here's some new info for you.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Now I have an important question for you guys.

There are a few Pontiac guys running in the Super Street & Super Gas classes. For those who don't know, S/ST has a 10.90 dial-in for everybody, & S/G has a 9.90 dial-in for everybody. 1st car to the finish line without a red light or running quicker than the dial-in wins. 

I suppose it's similar to bracket racing, but also different in several ways. The cars have big scoops & look like lots of bracket cars. Hardly any engine rules.They run S/G at most all nat events. And they run both classes at most all div races.

I have pics of most of the Pontiac powered cars running these classes. SO, my question is: Do ya'll want me to include pics & info of these cars in this thread, or NOT ? I'll leave the decision up to you guys. ???

Here's 1 pic of Doug Croft's S/G Bird.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

############################################################################## 

So, since there has been no response to this thread in several days, I must ask now for those of 
you who actually read this, please post a reply, so that I'll know whether or not the thread is still 
visible to site members. 

Thanks ! 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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## goat671 (Apr 13, 2019)

sure is


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

bigD said:


> ##############################################################################
> 
> So, since there has been no response to this thread in several days, I must ask now for those of
> you who actually read this, please post a reply, so that I'll know whether or not the thread is still
> ...


For me, I have no interest in the later SS cars after the Pontiac engine was killed. Putting a 455 in a 1987 Trans-Am body is not a Pontiac as it never was an option. It is no better than when a Hemi was slipped into a '60's Pontiac drag car because it was the only way to compete successfully against other Hemi powered cars - Pontiac just could no longer compete as HP increased and ET's dropped.

The highlight of S & SS was the mid-60's. Pontiac introduced 5 special factory light-weight 1965 GTO's used for race duty and 1 still survives today. The rivalry between Pontiac & Olds pitted each in putting out some high HP race aimed cars like the 1966 Pontiac "XS" Tri-Power Ram Air option and the 1966 Olds "W-30" 442 Tri-Power. Olds slipped in the 455CI in 1968 in the Hurst/Olds skirting around the GM edict on engine/Hp size by claiming to have the engine installed off site at the Hurst plant (but the engine was indeed installed at the factory before sent to Hurst). Pontiac did not introduce the 455 in the A-body until 1970.

It is my opinion that the S & SS racing spilled over to street racing which was the spark that really propelled the car industry to offer the assorted HP options, catch terms/phrases, and badging/names that promoted more HP - until the insurance agencies and the Feds stepped in in 1970 changing the path of the muscle car from 1971 onward. So really, after 1970, S & SS racing also died.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...I have no interest in the later SS cars after the Pontiac engine was killed. Putting a 455 in a 1987 Trans-Am body is not a Pontiac..."

I TOTALLY disagree with this. The '82 Pontiac was just much a Pontiac as the '81, with 301T power, or the '79 with 400 power. Since a 455 Pontiac is a Pontiac engine & an '87 Bird is a Pontiac body, to me, that makes a Pontiac 455 powered '87 Firebird Super Stocker a Pontiac drag racing car.

As I'm sure most here know, Pontiac used several different brand engines in some of it's cars, before 1982. Some of the early '70's models used the Chevy inline Six. Later in the '70's, some used the Buick V6. And I think some '70's models used Chevy, Olds, & Buick V8's. So, are we to say that every Pontiac body that didn't come with a Pontiac engine was not a Pontiac ? I suppose opinions differ.

My opinion is that I'll go with the Pontiac V8 engine, no matter what body it's put into. So, to me, those 8 sec Cobalts are good representatives of the power of the alum head 428 Pontiac engine.

Now, here's something else some may not know. Those alum head 428 engines can be built with hardly any GM parts, at all. 2 different aftermarket blocks are legal. The heads & intakes are made by Edelbrock. You can also run a Q-jet carb which was sold by Edelbrock back in the late '90's & early 2000's. There is a long list of legal aftermarket rods. I assume you can also run an aftermarket crank, with legal specs. The cam/lifters/rockers are aftermarket. Even Stockers are allowed the shortblock parts & the Edelbrock Q-jets. So, are these Stock/SS engines NOT Pontiac, just because the shortblocks are made with aftermarket parts ? If you use a factory block & crank, but use Eagle rods, Ross pistons, Total Seal rings, King bearings, Bullet cam, CC rockers, & Fel-Pro gaskets, is it still a Pontiac engine ? Do the Kaufman or Edelbrock alum heads make it no longer a Pontiac engine ? Where exactly do we draw the line ? I assume opinions differ as to how many non-factory parts an engine can have & still be called a Pontiac engine.





__





EngineSpecs






www.classracerinfo.com





Anyhow, I'll be happy to continue this thread, talkin about all things Pontiac powered class racing, & posting qualifying lists & race results, after the season opens--BUT ONLY if some of you guys want it. I have other things I can do. But, I'd be glad to give all the input I can to the thread.

So, if ya'll want me to continue posting on it, let me know.


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## PontiacJim (Dec 29, 2012)

bigD: "Some of the early '70's models used the Chevy inline Six. Later in the '70's, some used the Buick V6. And I think some '70's models used Chevy, Olds, & Buick V8's. So, are we to say that every Pontiac body that didn't come with a Pontiac engine was not a Pontiac ?"

Hmmmm. So if you are saying that any non-Pontiac specific engine that was used in a Pontiac body is still a Pontiac engine option because it found its way under the hood of a Pontiac branded car, then you would be OK with a Buick V6 in place of a 1969 RA IV engine, a Chevy 307 in the bay of a 1965 GTO convertible, or the infamous LS engine in the engine bay or a SD 455 Trans-Am? How about the Pontiac developed heads used on Chevy engines when the Pontiac Division no longer had an engine it could call its own. Nope, still a Chevy engine, just had Pontiac script cast in the head. If Pontiac made a head for the Ferrari engine, would it now be a Pontiac engine? Argh! Enzo would be rolling in his grave.

Not a fan of an aftermarket block just because the headbolt pattern mimics a former cast iron Pontiac block. I would not be a fan of a Hemi head designed for a Pontiac engine and calling it an NHRA approved replacement for a factory type iron head in S or SS class. - I can live with the aftermarket aluminum heads. I don't know if they have an FX-class anymore (I don't follow drag racing or Nascar because it is all about corporate sponsorships and $$$ - not the "little guy"), but aftermarket blocks, Pontiac Hemi heads, and any Pontiac born 326, 350,389, 400, 421, 428, or 455 engine in any 1980 body and up _should be put into that category_, not the S or SS.

Nope, Pontiac went the way of the Hudson car company when the last Pontiac 400/455 rolled off the assembly line. In essence, they were absorbed into corporate GM and were simply a body style spin-off of Chevrolet's GM platform. Pontiac became a ghost of its former self and was just another GM turd dressed in a different suit of clothing.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

"...So if you are saying that any non-Pontiac specific engine that was used in a Pontiac body is still a Pontiac engine option because it found its way under the hood of a Pontiac branded car, then you would be OK with a Buick V6 in place of a 1969 RA IV engine, a Chevy 307 in the bay of a 1965 GTO convertible, or the infamous LS engine in the engine bay or a SD 455 Trans-Am?..."

That's totally ridiculous ! I said I'm OK with using a real Pontiac engine in the GT class Super Stock cars, even if the body is NOT a Pontiac body. What I'd consider a Pontiac V8 would be such engines as the 326, P350, 389, P400, 421, P428, P455, & even the 301's. I do NOT consider Chevy, Olds, Buick, or Caddy engines as Pontiac engines, just because some were available in certain Pontiac bodies. 

NHRA even specifies the brand of most non-Pontiac engines, which were used in Pontiac bodies. Just 1 example are the '81 model Pontiacs. It calls the 307 an Olds engine, & the 305 a Chevy engine. 





__





EngineSpecs






www.classracerinfo.com






** "...I don't follow drag racing..." **

Well, that says a LOT ! Maybe, since this thread IS about drag racing, it's NOT a thread you should comment on. ???

I have no quarrel with you. You obviously know a lot more than me about street Pontiacs. BUT, since you admitted you don't follow drag racing, but I DO, maybe I'm more qualified to contribute to THIS particular thread, which I'll be happy to do, IF anyone here shows an interest in me doing so. ?????


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Qualifying @ the SGMP NHRA division 2 season opener began today. The only Pontiac powered Stocker was Michael Brand's SD455 powered '73 Formula. He was #7.






LODRS 2-1 - Stock Eliminator Qualifying, Friday Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





There were no SS Pontiacs entered. There are at least 5 other Pontiac powered cars entered. Not sure if they're all running in the Super Street class, or if some are running Super Gas. We'll find out tomorrow, when the 1st round results are posted.


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

I think this is video of today's action @ SGMP. The pic & sound are kinda fuzzy, on my laptop. But I think you can tell what's goin on.





__





CLASS RACER FORUM - View Single Post - D2 at SGMP


Class Racer, Class Racing, Class Racing forums



classracer.com


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Michael Brand won his 1st round of Stock.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...UMMIT#indextop

Kevin MacNicol & Laurel Morris were 1st round winners, in S/ST.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...UMMIT#indextop

Rain ended racing early.






LODRS 2-1 - Rain Ends Saturday


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

'22 Winter Nats

In today's Stock qualifying, Lindy Lindholm was #14, C.W. Hoefer was #20, & Tommy Brown was #51.






POMONA 1 - Stock Eliminator Qualifying, Session #2 Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





In SS, Keri Angeles was #37 & Art Peterson was #44.






POMONA 1 - Super Stock Qualifying, Session #2 Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

'22 Winter Nats

In the final round of Stock qualifying, Lindy Lindholm finished #21, C.W. Hoefer #25, & Tommy Brown #51.






POMONA 1 - Stock Eliminator Final Qualifying, Session #3 Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





In SS, Keri Angeles was #41 & Art Peterson #47.






POMONA 1 - Super Stock Final Qualifying, Session #3 Order


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





After the 1st round of Stock & SS elims, C.W. Hoefer & Lindy Lindholm are the only Pontiac powered survivors.






POMONA 1 - Stock Eliminator Round 1 Eliminations


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Arizona Nats

In Stock qualifying, Brad Burton was #11, C.W. Hoefer was #24. & Ryan Warter was #45.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...UMMIT#indextop

In SS, Scott Burton was #8.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...UMMIT#indextop


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Div 4 Race in Belle Rose, LA

In Stock, Devon Dioguardi was #21 in the Mission Garage '74 SD455 T/A. Todd Kuhn was #49. Todd is listed driving a '71 GTO. I think that's a misprint. He's been driving a '70 GTO for quite a few years.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...UMMIT#indextop

In SS, J.B. Clegg was #16, in the '73 SD455 Bird which John Clegg bought new.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...UMMIT#indextop


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

AZ Nats 

Brad Burton has the only Pontiac powered car still in the show. He survived round 3 of Stock, with a D/SA heads-up win. Ran a strong 10.43 !






PHOENIX - Stock Eliminator Round 3 Eliminations


CHANDLER, Ariz. -SERIES: NHRA-SUMMIT HEADLINE: Stock Eliminator Round 3 Eliminations REPORTER: By Rick Green DATELINE: CHANDLER, Ariz. - SLUG: PHOENIX - Stock Eliminator Round 3 Eliminations Results of round 3 eliminations in Stock Eliminator at



www.dragracecentral.com


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

AZ Nats

Brad got another heads-up win in round 4.






PHOENIX - Stock Eliminator Round 4 Eliminations


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com





But the semi-final was as far as he got, running too quick, for a breakout loss 






PHOENIX - Stock Eliminator Round 5 Eliminations


Drag racing results, news photos and highlights from NHRA and IHRA series events



www.dragracecentral.com


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

The Baby Gators kicks off at 9am GA time, with Stock Q-1.

https://www.nhra.net/2022/nhraracer/...s/drs_LO22.pdf

Wild Horse Pass Motorsports Park is hosting the div 7 Lucas Oil Series doubleheader race this week. Qualifying begins today, for the 1st race.

https://racewildhorse.com/event/nhra...es-march-2022/


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Div 7 Race 

Looks like there are 5 Pontiac powered cars on the Stock Q-list. The drivers are: Brad Burton, C.W. Hoefer, Rick Unterseh, Ryan Warter, & Tommy Brown.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r=100#indextop

Scott Burton was #3 on the SS list.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r=100#indextop


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Div 7

Brad Burton won Stock, in the 1st race of the div 7 doubleheader ! 

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...UMMIT#indextop

Cut a .005 light & ran 10.734 on a 10.73 dial. That's some pretty good final round driving !


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## bigD (Jul 21, 2016)

Brad Won Again !

Brad Burton also won the 2nd race of the doubleheader ! That's a Pontiac sweep !  





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Results


NHRA - Results




www.nhra.com


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