# Wagner PCV Valve Tuning - Where did You End Up?



## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

I'm working on Fine Tuning my Wagner PCV valve, finding the perfect balance between unnecessarily massive idle screwing vacuum leak, and finely tuned crankcase ventilation.

Where did you end up on your idle and cruise tuning?

I think I may end up at 1 turn for idle, 3/4 turn for cruise.

Roughly I have a 362 stroker with 236/242 duration and Quadrajet.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I'm running mine in the fixed orifice position 2 turns out, they recently came out with new tuning instructions where you can remove the spring.


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

Baaad65 said:


> I'm running mine in the fixed orifice position 2 turns out, they recently came out with new tuning instructions where you can remove the spring.


So I’m just curious, Why did you decide to go to that mode? Why not engage the cruise mode with the two stage tuning? From what I’ve read, fixed orifice is really just applied to engines that are under 10 inches or so, is that what you have? Thanks.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

I just tuned per instructions... although, Ive since swapped cams and my vac dropped... and I think the Wagner is working better now, so not sure what that means!


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Ebartone said:


> So I’m just curious, Why did you decide to go to that mode? Why not engage the cruise mode with the two stage tuning? From what I’ve read, fixed orifice is really just applied to engines that are under 10 inches or so, is that what you have? Thanks.


I was still having the dipstick pop but I think it was something else so maybe I'll re tune the valve since I screwed the dipstick to the tube now because I was out of ideas.


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

Baaad65 said:


> I was still having the dipstick pop but I think it was something else so maybe I'll re tune the valve since I screwed the dipstick to the tube now because I was out of ideas.


I’ll tell you, and I don’t think everyone would agree with me, but while the Wagner does a number of amazing things, like have the crankcase spend most of its time at vacuum, helping with leaks, stabilizing idle, and even maybe producing more power at idle and cruise, the fact of the matter is, in my opinion, that no PCV valve will help with the dipstick being popped out. Why? Simply because most dipsticks pop out at wide-open or very open throttle, and as we all know there is no or very little vacuum at that point, so I don’t care what the PCV valve is doing, if there’s no vacuum it’s not doing anything at all. Is there a solution to help with popped dipsticks? In my opinion yes; very free-flowing breathers, so the crankcase cannot develop enough pressure to push up the stick. Again this is just my opinion and experience.


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## armyadarkness (Dec 7, 2020)

Ebartone said:


> no PCV valve will help with the dipstick being popped out. Why? Simply because most dipsticks pop out at wide-open or very open throttle, and as we all know there is no or very little vacuum at that point, so I don’t care what the PCV valve is doing, if there’s no vacuum it’s not doing anything at all. Is there a solution to help with popped dipsticks? In my opinion yes; very free-flowing breathers,


If you followed any of my exhausting posts on this topic, back in the day, then you'd know that I agree 100%.

I was fortunate and was luckily able to prove this theory, by accident. 

I had temporary breathers in my vc's, and one day I did a big burnout while leaving work. Got home and the temporary breathers were both gone. 

I also believe that; larger displacement engines will exhibit popped dipsticks, more than their smaller counterparts. A 326 and a 461 have the same size crank case, but one must displace 135 cui more than the other, in the same amount of time.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Ebartone said:


> I’ll tell you, and I don’t think everyone would agree with me, but while the Wagner does a number of amazing things, like have the crankcase spend most of its time at vacuum, helping with leaks, stabilizing idle, and even maybe producing more power at idle and cruise, the fact of the matter is, in my opinion, that no PCV valve will help with the dipstick being popped out. Why? Simply because most dipsticks pop out at wide-open or very open throttle, and as we all know there is no or very little vacuum at that point, so I don’t care what the PCV valve is doing, if there’s no vacuum it’s not doing anything at all. Is there a solution to help with popped dipsticks? In my opinion yes; very free-flowing breathers, so the crankcase cannot develop enough pressure to push up the stick. Again this is just my opinion and experience.


Oh I have free flowing breathers that's for sure, I'll spare everyone more pix as there's plenty on this site so Idk what it could be. Also I've read that while your right the vacuum drops off at wot rendering the valve useless it's the build up of pressure before wot that could be the problem no ?


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

Baaad65 said:


> Oh I have free flowing breathers that's for sure, I'll spare everyone more pix as there's plenty on this site so Idk what it could be. Also I've read that while your right the vacuum drops off at wot rendering the valve useless it's the build up of pressure before wot that could be the problem no ?


Do you by chance have any pictures of those breathers?


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

Ebartone said:


> Do you by chance have any pictures of those breathers?


All right, all right, I couldn't resist! 🤣🤣


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Ebartone said:


> All right, all right, I couldn't resist! 🤣🤣


Be careful what you wish for  But in all seriousness I have them drilled so they should flow like crazy but you still think it's not enough if the stick is still popping? What do I have to do add two more so there's four, I never see four breathers and Jared has said his is the same motor and he didn't drill his breathers out so they have the tiny holes still and he has no problems with his stick popping out


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

What can I say, I've been married a long time, I'm lucky if I can get anything to pop these days.

All joking aside, not sure why I don't have these issues and others do. I'm still thinking that if it's an engine vacuum issue at WOT, routing a vented breather to the air cleaner could solve the problem. Figure that Pontiac used a tube from one of the valve covers plumbed to a crank case filter inside the air cleaner. Problem here is you would need to drill a hole in the bottom of your air cleaner and run a hose to it. Since aesthetics are important to all of our builds, this would not be a preferred solution for most.


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

Baaad65 said:


> Be careful what you wish for  But in all seriousness I have them drilled so they should flow like crazy but you still think it's not enough if the stick is still popping? What do I have to do add two more so there's four, I never see four breathers and Jared has said his is the same motor and he didn't drill his breathers out so they have the tiny holes still and he has no problems with his stick popping out


So I don’t claim to be an expert in anyway, but I will tell you that I literally started by using the black version of exactly the same billet breathers you have. I then opened the holes up the best I could, not quite as far as yours, but pretty far. So here comes the scientific part, breathing through those I still felt they were very restrictive, so I decided to experiment by purchasing the breather below. Again, blowing through them the difference is huge, with these there is absolutely no restriction.

in addition to that, the billet breathers that you and I have, are fairly thick, so the actual diameter of the hole coming through the valve cover is much, much smaller than this. These deliberately created a very thin wall. I will say, that since I’ve started using this breather, I’ve had very little, if any popping. So those are my two cents! Of course after you put the red oil on, they have a red tint. 









Amazon.com: K&N Vent Air Filter/ Breather: High Performance, Premium, Washable, Replacement Engine Filter: Filter Height: 2 In, Flange Length: 1 In, Shape: Breather, 62-1080 : Automotive


Buy K&N Vent Air Filter/ Breather: High Performance, Premium, Washable, Replacement Engine Filter: Filter Height: 2 In, Flange Length: 1 In, Shape: Breather, 62-1080: Air Filters - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

I tried those and after a couple blasts oil was saturating the element and looking bad so I brake cleaned them and returned them. I can't fit baffles in my valve covers with the poly locks, I have the center hole on mine drilled out to 3/4". I could get a slightly bigger drill from a machine shop I know and make them bigger until the wall was thinner like the breathers you pictured but how much am I really going to gain? Then I cut the element in half like a bagel and glued it to the top so there was no flow restriction through the foam but it still catches oil, I never have any oil on the covers and barely any on the element.


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## Ebartone (Aug 18, 2019)

Baaad65 said:


> I tried those and after a couple blasts oil was saturating the element and looking bad so I brake cleaned them and returned them. I can't fit baffles in my valve covers with the poly locks, I have the center hole on mine drilled out to 3/4". I could get a slightly bigger drill from a machine shop I know and make them bigger until the wall was thinner like the breathers you pictured but how much am I really going to gain? Then I cut the element in half like a bagel and glued it to the top so there was no flow restriction through the foam but it still catches oil, I never have any oil on the covers and barely any on the element.


Sounds like you’ve got it worked out, that works best for you! I’ve also struggled with putting a baffle in my valve cover, with poly locks, but that’s a different thread! Sounds like you have the best possible solution for your setup.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Well I thought I did and the new dipstick stayed put a few times then it started popping so I drilled the dipstick bell and tube and put a tiny stainless screw in, I was out of ideas and so was Gene Wagner and his son, I'd hate to have four breathers and just imagine twice as many pictures of my breathers...probably would crash the site 🤣 So I'll just keep an eye on things and hope for no leaks 🤞


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## Machinest-guy (Jul 19, 2019)

The physic are wrong for pressure of blow by to be moving the dipstick. Do the force / area math. Then think harmonic of the handle vibrating vs. friction of blade against tube moving it up and out. Then think of oil motion in the pan creating vibration against blade which wiggles stick up..... Test by putting a balloon on the dipstick tube.Rev up engine as hard as you dare or remove hood and do a burn out watching the balloon. If blow-by inflates the balloon you have a damaged motor. Geezzzz guys. come on. Recall PCV is ONLY for low speed idle conditions. KV system is for operation above idle and in cruse mode. And most of the issues presented here are on engines where the KV system is compromised or missing. Fix / install / set height correctly of windage tray. Then see how stick moves. If you insist on running without fundimental solution inplemented, try making a dipstick from a speed - O cable. It won't be able to grip the sides of the tube to walk up the dipsitck tube so it will stay in place.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Good information, yes I haven't been convinced that it was excessive crank case pressure with no oil coming out of the breathers and no leaks, a proper baffled windage tray and a good pcv system. Plus others have less flowing breathers than me with no dipstick problems so I believe it's vibration or oil sling at wot.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

I think I asked you this before, and I'm sure you answered and I don't remember, but what year is the block you have? Depending on the year, you may, or may not, have a windage tray in it. Even if it does, choice of spacing, or not spacing, the windage tray to ensure clearance for the stroker crank, and choice of oil pan could all contribute to what @Machinest-guy is talking about above.

True statements to compare our two set ups is your engine has a higher tech PVC system and modified breathers than mine which should both flow freer than what I'm using. Mine has zero indication of any blow by and you have had issue with yours in the past. My car is running a 1971 block that has a windage tray. I installed spacers (sold by Butler for this exact purpose) under a new windage tray when I installed the oil pump (60 PSI Melling) and lower dipstick tube. My oil pan is an 8qt Canton that is designed for road/rally cross. It has a fully baffled sump plus trap doors which keep the oil from sloshing around even in hard corners. This was overkill, but I didn't want to run into any issues that could be prevented. My engine holds ~9.5 quarts of oil. My dipstick is a stock style replacement, no voodoo at all. Do you know what's inside of your oil pan? I know you have a Butler engine, but they are very customizable when ordered.

Here's the tray in mine. 



https://butlerperformance.com/i-24453778-tomahawk-pontiac-windage-tray-3-4-length-tpp-tp-042.html?ref=category:1396718


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

It's a '72 block and the build sheet says no windage tray which I thought was odd, stock 6 qt pan.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

That makes sense and could be contributing to your popped dip stick issue (just a guess here) either by oil turbulence or splashing. Pontiac stopped installing windage trays on stock engines between 71 and 72 and switched to a baffled oil pan instead. The stock baffle is basically just a sheet of metal tack welded to the sump with a spot for the oil pump to go through. The center main cap would be drilled and tapped for the lower dipstick tube support. This was how my old engine was (1974 block). A windage tray could have been added to your engine when it was built had they drilled and tapped the 2nd and 4th main caps. Whoever ordered the build decided to skip the extra cost.

If your fix has controlled the problem, I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's not worth pulling the engine to swap pans or install a tray or anything that drastic. Just something you may need to live with.

These pictures have been posted on here before but they are what I have. Here is what the baffle in your pan would look like and you can kind of see the dip stick mount bracket in the other. Only a really thin piece of metal. Very possible it could be affected by vibration or whatever.


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## Baaad65 (Aug 29, 2019)

Jared said:


> That makes sense and could be contributing to your popped dip stick issue (just a guess here) either by oil turbulence or splashing. Pontiac stopped installing windage trays on stock engines between 71 and 72 and switched to a baffled oil pan instead. The stock baffle is basically just a sheet of metal tack welded to the sump with a spot for the oil pump to go through. The center main cap would be drilled and tapped for the lower dipstick tube support. This was how my old engine was (1974 block). A windage tray could have been added to your engine when it was built had they drilled and tapped the 2nd and 4th main caps. Whoever ordered the build decided to skip the extra cost.
> 
> If your fix has controlled the problem, I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's not worth pulling the engine to swap pans or install a tray or anything that drastic. Just something you may need to live with.
> 
> ...


Yup I'm keeping my little screw in the dipstick because it solved the problem, don't understand why Butler didn't use a windage tray...is that common practice? I told them and Wagner about no windage tray and they didn't saying anything about it. If it was crankcase pressure I think I would see other signs.


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## Jared (Apr 19, 2013)

I agree with you. I think we all know what the problem is. Other than it being annoying for you, I don't think it's ever going to cause you any real issues. Honestly, I didn't have any intention of using a windage tray on mine. I only did because that was the year block I had and I needed something to hold in the lower dip stick tube. Maybe it's a good thing my hand was forced on the matter.


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